Podcasts about jeff it

Between Two Voices: Understanding Code-Switching   Welcome back to Blended! Today, we're talking about code-switching. A couple of episodes ago, my panel and I were talking about intersectionality, this phrase come up and, I have to admit, I hadn't heard it before. It's one of the things I love about Blended, it always throws up something new. And I thought that, if it was new to me, it might be new to some of you as well. So we wanted to give code-switching its own deep dive. Today we'll be talking about what it means, why it happens, the hidden toll of sacrificing personal authenticity to fit in – and what we can do to create inclusive environments for everyone.  IN THIS EPISODE:   [00.54] Introductions to our Blended panelists.   ·         Leah – Author ·         Jeff – Community Consultant and Executive Producer and Host of Beats, Rhymes y Comunidad podcast ·         Dr Lola – ERG Strategist and Founder and Executive Director at Immigrants in Corporate  [06.22] The group explore what code-switching means and why it happens, and share some personal examples.   ·         Inauthenticity ·         Altered: o   Mannerisms o   Dress o   Language o   Body Language Context ·         Perception ·         Acceptance ·         Bias ·         Conscious/unconscious ·         Professionalism/credibility   ·         Intent ·         Stigma ·         'Cookie cutter' mold in the workplace ·         Archetypes – European white male centric   ·         Patriarchy ·         Impact of 'casual' tech CEO's ·         Raising children to code-switch ·         Awareness ·         Generational differences ·         Accountability ·         Too much, or not enough ·         Socioeconomic impact ·         Exhaustion ·         Diversity ·         Normalization ·         Fear of change – what are you really afraid of? ·         Ignorance ·         Courage to call things out   "It's how you alter the way you show up, whether it's in a conversation or an environment, from your mannerisms, your body language, the way you dress. Anything that's an inauthentic version of yourself that you're presenting in an effort to gain approval or acceptance." Jeff "I was raised on it… It was expected of us. This is what you do to adjust, to do the best you can to eliminate bias and assimilate into what's acceptable." Leah "It's changing. I'm being more intentional about creating a code of my own, because there's been too much stigma around how we show up – especially in the workplace." Jeff  "It's a burden, a backpack of rocks. But, after a while, we get used to it." Leah "As a black woman in America, you can't talk about this without talking about race and gender… Sometimes code-switching becomes armor… but it's exhausting." Dr Lola "Sometimes when we think about change it can get so big that you retreat, it almost feels impossible. Then I realized it just had to start with me... If you check yourself each time you're afraid and ask yourself, 'what about that bothers me so much?,' then you're creating an atmosphere that allows people to be themselves." Leah   [42.13] The panel reflect on the mental health impacts of code-switching, and how it shows up in community. ·         Identity ·         Shrinking yourself ·         Belonging ·         Code-switching with ill-intent ·         Recognition ·         Permission ·         Setting the tone ·         Culture ·         Forcing people to conform   "We talk about the word belong, but we don't actually interrogate what that requires." Jeff "How do we attract a different culture? If people are code-switching – intentionally or unintentionally – it's because something about that environment has told them they need to." Dr Lola   [57.19] The group discuss responsibility and who should take ownership of code-switching.    ·         Leadership ·         Safe spaces ·         Empathy ·         Grace ·         Understanding ·         Support ·         Curiosity ·         Allyship ·         Boundaries ·         Education ·         Open dialogue ·         Power ·         Visibility   "The leader has a responsibility to set the tone. I think, as individuals, we're always going to need to code-switch to a certain extent, but you shouldn't have to code-switch consistently, to your detriment." Dr Lola   [01.06.56] The panel share ideas for what leaders can do to tackle code-switching in the workplace.   ·         Training ·         Impact of AI ·         Shift focus to individual ·         Consistency ·         Vulnerability ·         Ability to get it wrong   [01.18.52] The group sum up their thoughts from today's discussion.    RESOURCES AND LINKS MENTIONED: You can connect with Leah, Jeff and Dr Lola over on LinkedIn.  

In today's episode, Umah is joined by Jeff Marr, founder of The Practical Philosophy Club, to unpack the unique art of community facilitation and what it takes to design unstructured, safe spaces for deep, depolarising conversation. Moving away from top-down corporate agendas, Jeff explores how his grassroots, peer-led facilitation model grew from a casual living room meetup in Mexico into a global network hosting over 800 people a week across 28 countries. They talk about: The power of the introduction and why the first few minutes are the facilitator's most critical tool for setting guidelines on airtime, monologue-busting, and vulnerability  The "jam session" approach to facilitation, shifting the practitioner's role from a rigid authority figure to a light touch that trusts adults to self-moderate and navigate their own dialogue  Holding space for ideological friction and practical techniques to de-escalate heated moments, calm group triggers, and help people sit with constructive discomfort The spectrum of group dynamics, from managing large groups by scaling into small, co-facilitated tables, to knowing when to let a little healthy chaos ride. Quote highlights "I think that's one of our main issues in society is that we have these echo chambers that no one's breaking out of, and our algorithms are pushing us to go further into it." "...you want to have a strong frame of reality and a sense of confidence in yourself, so that you can hear." "We've had several people who, we could call them say problematic, right? Like a little bit quick to anger easily triggered these type of things. And I have seen them blossom... they're able to hear all these opinions without getting triggered anymore so it's been beautiful to see that."   Links Today's guest: Jeffery Marr — Practical Philosophy Club Founder https://www.practicalphilosophy.club & https://www.linkedin.com/in/practicalphilosophyy/  To join a Practical Philosophy Meetup in a country near you, head to: https://www.practicalphilosophy.club/practical-philosophy-locations/ Today's host: Umah Ganeshalingam — Change and Transformation Advisor and Facilitator https://www.linkedin.com/in/umah To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF England & Wales Chapter:

How is AI transforming accessibility for indie authors — and why should you care even if you consider yourself able-bodied? What happens when the tools designed to help people with disabilities end up making everyone's creative business better? Jeff Adams, accessibility expert and romance author, explores how AI is opening doors that were previously closed. In the intro, Spotify Audiobook Innovations; The Economics of Convention Life [The Indy Author]; Friction in your Author Business [Self-Publishing with ALLi]. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started. This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn Jeff Adams is the author of YA thrillers and gay romance, and the co-author of Content for Everyone, a practical guide for creative entrepreneurs to produce accessible and usable web content. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. Show Notes How ending a long-running podcast made space for more writing — and how to know when it's time to let go of a good thing What accessibility really means for indie authors and why your digital content might be excluding part of your audience How AI agents like Claude Cowork are removing physical and cognitive barriers for authors with disabilities, chronic pain, or limited energy The culture of shame around AI use in the writing community and why blanket anti-AI statements can be ableist Practical tools including NotebookLM, ElevenReader, and ChatGPT for marketing copy, metadata management, and multimodal research Exciting futures in personalised reading, real-time translation, and AI browser agents that could change how everyone interacts online You can find Jeff at JeffAdamsWrites.com. Jeff also now has a SubStack at contentforeveryone.substack.com Transcript of the interview with Jeff Adams Jo: Jeff Adams is the author of YA thrillers and gay romance, and the co-author of Content for Everyone, a practical guide for creative entrepreneurs to produce accessible and usable web content. Welcome back to the show, Jeff. Jeff: Thanks so much, Jo. It's good to be back. Jo: It is. You were last on the show in March 2023, so over three years ago now. Give us a bit of an update on your writing and publishing business and what it looks like at the moment. Jeff: Sure. I think the biggest thing that happened is that my husband Will, who is also a writer, we ended the Big Gay Fiction Podcast at the end of 2024, after 470-something episodes. It was basically time to do that. So we both focused on writing from that point. In 2025 we had some of our biggest successes in getting writing out into the world. I refound my groove—my difficulty in writing went away finally. We talked a little bit about that back in 2023 too. Will started a new pen name and started producing again, and it was really good to be able to move in that direction. Jo: Was this the hockey romance that really hit at the right time? Jeff: You know, I wish I could have capitalised more on Heated Rivalry when it came out, but I did get hockey books out, and I think I did get to ride that wave a little bit there too. Jo: Yes, and if people don't know about that, that was a super popular streaming series. Was that based on a book? Jeff: It was, yes. Rachel Reid was the author of that book and that series that then Jacob Tierney optioned and made into what fairly turned into a global phenomenon at the end of 2025. Jo: Yes, absolutely. Although I particularly liked Red, White and Royal Blue. That was the one I liked. Not so much into hockey. But anyway, I just wanted to ask you about the Big Gay Fiction Podcast. As you say, you did hundreds of episodes over many years. You and I met over podcasting. You've had lots of connections with people. You ended it, and I know you struggled with ending it, but it sounds like it went really well for you. So maybe you could talk a bit about— How do you know when it's time to end something—a good thing rather than something bad? Does that make more space for writing, essentially? Jeff: It absolutely did make more space for writing for both of us, in particular for me because I have a day job. I balance everything on the creative side with the day job. Will and I had been talking about it for over a year. It just was like, it's really time. After nine years, getting to that 470 mark, we thought about trying to get to 10 years and we thought about, if not 10, then getting to 500 and ending on a milestone. As we looked at everything in our creative business, it was like, this is fun, we enjoy it, but we're not getting as much out of it as we might be if we were actually also writing books, which we also really want to do. It became a time thing and what was the best use of the time. We absolutely miss it occasionally. The whole Heated Rivalry thing, I would've loved to have had episodes to talk about that on, but in the long run, it was worth it. Jo: I mean, one of the things with a podcast, particularly around fiction, was that it was a marketing angle for your fiction. This show is a marketing angle mainly for my nonfiction. So what did you replace the podcast with, in terms of book marketing? Jeff: It was really stepped-up email marketing. I'd always had a list. Will started a list, of course, as he started his new pen name. So it was really turning on that, focusing on that, getting some email marketing with a Bargain Booksy and a Fussy Librarian and a BookBub occasionally to do that work. To be honest, even though we covered things in our genre that if you like what we're talking about, you should like our books, there was never as much of a connection there as you'd want there to be. Even from that book marketing angle, these other things that we can do, it's also a better spend of the money to get those types of promos than it was to continue running the show. Jo: Yes, that is interesting. I mean, obviously I think about podcasting a lot since I have this one, and I put Books and Travel on a hiatus and that was meant to help my fiction and definitely didn't help my fiction sales. But I want to bring it back again because I love doing it. Do you have this hankering sometimes? Do you think you'd ever do the podcast again? Because you are also quite into all the technical stuff and all that. Jeff: It's possible. I've toyed with the idea of doing a short accessibility podcast geared towards creatives, tilting to the same audience that Content for Everyone does. Then I come back and look at the time—is my time better served writing new fiction or perhaps starting a Substack, which I also toy with the idea of, for accessibility stuff? So it bounces around in my head to do another show, but I haven't really decided to jump on that yet. Jo: Yes, and I think that waiting is really good. As you say, you quit a big thing and you don't have to rush to fill it again. I love that you guys are writing more books. So I wanted us to talk about that up front because I know people who listen to this show—I encourage people to start podcasts if you want to, but equally it can take a lot of time. So that's fantastic. Now, you mentioned accessibility, and I feel like the word can be quite difficult for people. So let's just start with a definition. What is accessibility? Why do you care and why should we care? Jeff: So accessibility is really about making sure that whatever the thing is, whether it's something out in the physical world or in the online world, that everybody has access to it. Access to the information, access to getting into a building or being able to cross the street appropriately, whatever that is—that the accessibility of the thing is high. So that regardless of who is approaching it, they can interact with whatever the thing is. If we put that into the digital world, it's about making sure that text on a screen can be perceived by anybody, whether they're trying to read it visually or if they're trying to read it through a screen reader or through a braille monitor. Whatever that is, they need to be able to interact with it, get the information they need, do all the functions of whatever it is on the screen. Check out on Amazon, check out at their favourite e-commerce place, be able to get the products in their cart, check out, et cetera. For creatives, it's about the things that we do: the websites that we build for ourselves, the e-commerce platforms that we use, our email marketing, our social media posts. Making all of that as accessible as we can so that we're not perhaps missing a part of our audience or our prospective audience from being able to engage with our work and in turn, hopefully, buy our books and enjoy our books and become a fan. This became important to me because of my day job. I hadn't really considered this—like, I think most people don't—until I started working at UsableNet. It's going to be 15 years I've been at that company come this autumn, and I really started to see the impacts because UsableNet is all about accessibility on the digital front. I really started to learn, being a project manager for them, what all of that meant and how it impacted people who couldn't buy something online, couldn't book a hotel room, couldn't book an airline ticket. It just really became something I got passionate about. I ended up writing the book because I realised that nobody talks to creatives about this. Nobody tells the independent author what they should do to help make their digital stuff accessible so that they don't miss people. I never expected my day job to interact with my creative side so much, but this certainly has over the last few years. Jo: I mean, has it got better? Like we said, you were on here three years ago. We did talk about some of the things around EPUB formats and taking off DRM and what we need to do on our websites—labelling images, for example, and that kind of thing. Do you think accessibility has gotten better? Jeff: I think the awareness of it has improved, both within the creative community and in the broader web ecosphere, that the awareness is better. There's so much knowledge that needs to go into creating something that is accessible. Sometimes there's so much that you have to think about with colours and alt tags on images and all the little bits and pieces, if it doesn't really come to muscle memory, it's easy for it to fall off. There's a survey that's done by WebAIM every year about the top one million homepages out in the universe, and they surveyed those for just the things that an automated scan can detect, which is a small portion of overall accessibility, and the number of errors across that top million actually ticked up this year. Even though there's all these laws around the world—people get sued all the time in the US—the number of errors ticked up for the first time in a few years. So I think the awareness is up, but I think being able to take action on it and make the time to take action on it isn't where it needs to be. Jo: So last time you gave us all those tips. I'll refer people back to that and also to your book Content for Everyone, which has got loads of great stuff in. I wanted to talk to you for this show because I was sitting watching Claude Cowork—now I use Claude Code a lot more—but updating 140 titles on IngramSpark, where me clicking things and there's like 15 clicks per record on IngramSpark updates for pricing, is an absolute nightmare. I was watching the AI do the work and I realised this isn't just saving me time, it's actually saving my wrist and my arm from repetitive strain injury. That's when I thought about this accessibility thing. As you mentioned, for example being physically accessible into a building, say someone's in a wheelchair, they can't necessarily get into a building if there's no ramp. I was thinking that for many years, being an indie author, being a writer online, there's also been these physical barriers because there's a lot of plumbing and clicking for us. So I wondered, starting with an attitude around a shift in who this is opening up to— How is AI starting to help people with these accessibility issues? Jeff: Yes, there's so much opportunity around this. We should note, just to timestamp this, that we're talking on 14th April 2026, because who knows what will change, even in an hour from now. I think Cowork was one of the first things that we saw, and that's only been out since the very top of this year. Being able to do actual agentic tasks. Other things have sort of gotten there, but Cowork really opened it up. You mentioned the repetitive stress that you would've had clicking all of those forms on IngramSpark across 140 books. But there's that type of stress, chronic pain, cognitive drain for somebody who may have some cognitive disability and trying to work through that form. The cognitive energy just might drain out and maybe knock them out for several days after trying to get through that, or the tasks take them multiple days to do. Someone who has lower vision, someone who's trying to work through that form with a screen reader—all of that draws energy, draws focus. Now we've got something where, with plain language, we could say something like: here's all my pricing information, I've logged into IngramSpark, go update these books. Obviously the prompt's going to be a little more than that, but in broad terms, that's what we're going to tell it. Jo: Hmm. Jeff: And being able to have it go through and do the thing. If it gets stuck, have it come back and say, “Hey, I've got trouble with this. Please help me.” That can just free up so much of the drains that people can have—the things that can take them out of doing the part of the work that they need to do for an author business. They can go write the book through whatever process you're going to use to do that, rather than getting caught up in something like having to update all those books on IngramSpark. Jo: You mentioned writing the book there. I have this real sense of being an able-bodied indie author in terms of my computer use and my ability to write a whole book, a 70,000-word thriller that I write regularly. We're all special in some way, but I do have a reasonably normal brain where I can do this work without too much strain. It's hard work, but I can do it. I meet people who are now using AI to help them write, to help them organise their work—maybe someone has dyslexia or ADHD or cognitive issues or pain—there's just so many things that I take for granted that don't affect me. I hear from people who, at this point in time in the community, are almost shamed for using AI to write. So I wanted to bring this up to discuss it under the terms of accessibility. Do you have any thoughts on that? Jeff: I have real difficulty with people who will say anything in the broad range of, “I don't need to use this thing, and therefore you should not either.” Which is adjacent to indie anti-AI speak that there is out there. Certainly we're living right now at probably the highest point that it's ever been, where more and more there's a sentiment towards not using AI for whatever the reason is. I totally respect that people can have concerns about the environment and about energy use and water use, et cetera. Not to mention all the other things that are on the more difficult side of AI. To shame someone who may not be able to put their story out there without the use of that AI, whichever one they're using, or to shame them because they're using AI to run part of their business—updating IngramSpark, doing other things like that—I think it can come down to there being some ableism there. Ther is some privilege behind that too, where they're just like, “I don't need this, and you shouldn't have it either.” I want to give people just a sliver of an idea of what this can mean for someone who is disabled and what AI can unlock for them. There is a person on LinkedIn that I follow whose name is Hannah Desmond. She's an ADHD coach and a former software developer, and very recently she posted this on LinkedIn. This is a paraphrase of what she said, but: having something that can meet you where you are and help you bridge that gap is what I think I have found so helpful about using AI. Here's what I keep coming back to. Without that support, I wasn't more motivated or more capable. I was just stuck. That's the bit that gets lost. We've been taught that struggling is how you know you're doing it properly. So when something reduces the struggle, it can feel wrong—even when it's the thing that actually makes the work possible. Because there's a difference between avoiding thinking and being able to think at all. I think that rounds it up. She's talking about her time as a software developer, but you can apply that to any realm of AI when we're thinking about trying to shame someone for why they may be using it. We may not know that they have a disability because we don't always share that part of ourselves. So I really feel strongly about that and how we are in this culture of shame. Jo: Yes. It drives me up the wall, actually. But I will also say: you don't have to have a disability or accessibility issues in order to use AI in whatever way you personally decide is okay—talking to the listeners now. I think Orna Ross from the Alliance of Independent Authors says it well, which is you should have your own AI policy. So you personally decide where your lines are, how it helps you, what you want to keep for you, and what you want help with. I was also thinking in terms of accessibility around money. Again, for many of us, professional cover design, professional editing, professional human-level translation, these are things that are pretty pricey for many people. So again, this makes it more accessible. One of the reasons we got into the indie way and being indie authors was to try and remove the barriers to entry to people who have been excluded from the environment of publishing. So, yes, it is really hard to talk about this, and yet that's why I wanted to talk about it, because— There's so many variables for each individual and there's no situation that's the same, really, is there? Jeff: No, not at all. The things that I may need to do my work in the most efficient way possible is different from the way that you're going to work, is different than the way my husband's going to work, is different than every other person and the way that they're going to work. Which is why any kind of blanket statement about “I don't need something and therefore you shouldn't need it either” can just be so problematic, because we have no idea what someone else is going through. Either it's a permanent part of their lives or maybe it's something that is happening temporarily with them where they might need to leverage other tools. Jo: Yes. Talking about that temporary, I think I really got the first sense of this when I had COVID the first time, which was really bad. I remember I was so sick, the only thing I could do was listen to an audiobook. I couldn't think, I couldn't read. It was really probably months of not having my brain back. Then the other thing that's happened as I age, as women age, is menopause kicks in and the brain fog is a real thing. I've heard from other people too who've said having Claude or whoever, an AI tool, to help with the brain fog is so important because otherwise I just wouldn't be able to gather my thoughts. Again, as you said— Even if we don't need these things now, it's quite likely we're going to need them at some point, given ageing, given the potential for injury and disease. I mean, we don't escape this alive, do we? Jeff: Yes, that's a great point because unless we're extremely lucky as individuals, we're all likely to have some sort of a disability in our lives at some point. I know for me, as I age and my eyes get more and more tired after being in front of a screen all day for work, and then whatever creative stuff I do in the afternoon on a book—when it comes near bedtime and I do want to read, I probably want to do that with an audiobook, much more audio, especially for any long reading project. That can also be like, if I have a long document or a long article to read, I am likely to give it to ElevenReader, let it load itself up, and then listen to it, because I take the information in better than trying to follow words across a screen. Jo: Yes. Jonathan, my husband, now also listens to a lot of academic papers on ElevenReader. Most of us will know it as where we publish some audiobooks from ElevenLabs, or you can also publish other things there. So it is super useful to think about what we can do with ElevenReader. Another thing that I found really useful recently is NotebookLM. On NotebookLM, there is a free tier. You can put various things in there and then create a custom audio. So this is something I've been doing as part of research. You can put in, say, 10 YouTube videos or some PDFs or your book or whatever, and then you can create a custom audio. Then I'll go for a walk and I'll listen to the custom audio, and then I'll go back and look at the detail of what it was. It gives me the framework of whatever I'm thinking about on a broader level, and then I can come back to the details. So again, it's this multimodal approach that can help us manage our energy, I guess. Jeff: And it's all about the managing of the energy, I think, too. That is a great way to think about the accessibility of it all. You mentioned a great use there for NotebookLM. That could also be putting your book in there and having it help you build a world bible or something like that. Or building marketing materials off of that. There's a lot of things now that NotebookLM can do in terms of helping you create FAQs maybe for a newsletter or for your website, and building video stuff off of the material that it has. So there's a lot of options there, and ever-growing options that can be useful for someone to manage any number of the things that they may need in their creative business. Jo: Yes. In fact, talking about Claude, there are a lot of Claude plugins now, skills and integrations. Shopify just released a Claude plugin and many of us now have Shopify stores. I have a lot of products with a lot of different variations and the metadata. There's so much metadata. And again, I'm just so pleased now that I can work with Cowork and get it to actually update directly into Shopify. In fact, coming back, you mentioned updating alt tags earlier. That's something again that AI could help you update—the back list of your alt tags on a website. I've now got my Cowork doing EPUBs so I could finally update all my EPUBs with back matter and all of this kind of thing. So I feel like perhaps we could go beyond accessibility to talk about amplification. All the things that we didn't do because it was too tiring and we just couldn't be bothered, or it would just be way too much work, that now it's opened up as a possibility because of these tools. Jeff: Absolutely. I mean, you look at a backlist as large as yours and the things that you're now able to do. I didn't know that Claude had a Shopify plugin. So the abilities that we have now to maybe do things in the business that we hadn't before. One of the things I've been working with Claude on is rewriting my website and creating a more proper website for Will. I'm really making sure that it is not only SEO prepared but also GEO prepared, with all the metadata and all the backend code schema that it needs so that LLMs can find me, can understand what I do, can understand the books, branch out to the other areas that it needs to. Doing that through WordPress would've been so much more difficult, even with Claude, that to be able to rewrite the site in a way that is going to let me manage it better so that I will do it on a more consistent basis. Whatever that thing is, we're now able to do these things. That could be updating keywords in Amazon or making sure we're aligned across all of the sales platforms that we might be on and things like that, that Claude can do and do well. Jo: Yes, I think marketing is just the killer app really for people, isn't it? I think most authors do not enjoy marketing. I find Claude better for creative work, for strategic work, for doing work through Cowork or Code, but— ChatGPT with marketing copy is very, very good. So I've actually been using that as we record this. I've got a Kickstarter launching next week, so I've been getting it to do ad copy and social media copy and all that kind of thing. This is stuff when you have to produce—give me 20 taglines, give me 20 hooks, give me another 20 and another 20. I mean, we just cannot do it as humans, right? Jeff: Yes, I have found GPT wildly helpful. I mentioned trying to get Bargain Booksy and Fussy Librarian promos. Jo: Mm. Jeff: And you have to give it the marketing hook, and it can't just be the blurb that's on Amazon—it's got to be something fresh, and they each have slightly different requirements. Having GPT—here's the blurb, give me a dozen different options—and then I may take pieces of all of them and create one of my own. But it reworks that much faster than my brain was ever going to try to find the right thing I want to give to Bargain Booksy. Jo: Yes, you are right. Or it says write this in 300 characters or less. Jeff: Yes. Jo: I do exactly the same. That kind of transformative work can be really good. In fact, there was somebody I know who has been rampantly anti-AI for years and then said, “Would this help me? I have to do a synopsis for an agent, so I've got this 100,000-word book and it needs to be a 10-page synopsis. How would I do that with AI?” So I was encouraging her to take each chapter and ask it to summarise the chapter, and of course read through it and everything. But I mean, doing a synopsis once you've actually written a book—that can be super useful. So I think what we're saying is— There are levels of need in terms of both the author and the audience. Then there are levels of your personal use from one end of the spectrum to the other in terms of how far you want to go in every area of the business. And in that way, it's just different for everyone. Jeff: Yes, and I think getting to that mindset shift that we were talking about a little bit—it can be so easy to dip your toes in. That one author came to you and said, “Do you think it could do this?” And I think that's the beginning exploratory area for perhaps anyone. People are going to hear us talk about this and it might inspire them to go try something that we've talked about. But these things, whether it's Claude or GPT or Gemini or whichever one it is, you can come to it and say, “I'm an author, I have X, Y, Z going on in my life”—whether that's a disability, whether that's a time constraint because you have a day job and maybe you have kids and a family that need your attention—”I have these time constraints, I want to do X, Y, and Z in my business. How can you help me with that?” It's going to tell you what it can do to help you with that. I would even say, if you have the ability to have multiples of these, you could ask the same question to GPT and Claude, and they're going to give you similar answers in some instances, but they may also have different ones because of the abilities that the different platforms have around these things as well. That can help you make that mindset shift of, “Well, now I see that it can do that. Could it also do this?” And then ask it if it could do that. Because I know for me, Jo, I've taken so much from you and your journey with Cowork that it's like, “Oh, she did that. I wonder if I could do this.” And all of that piles on top of itself. Then eventually I think your brain starts to think on its own, “Oh, I have to do this task. Can Claude maybe do this for me? Let's go find out.” Jo: Yes, and if it couldn't do it for you yesterday, you never know, it might be able to do it tomorrow. Jeff: Right? Because I haven't tested yet its new ability to actually use your computer. Jo: Mm. Jeff: And I'm curious what that might open up. Because one of the things that I've seen that I wish it would do is be able to take the EPUB that's on my drive and actually put it into a platform I'm trying to upload to. Cowork on its own hasn't been able to cross that barrier, but I wonder if with computer use added to that, if it could. Like, “here's the EPUB, upload that over there,” be able to pick it from the file picker, essentially. Jo: Yes. I think, well, a little tip for everyone: I wouldn't give access to your entire file system to the AI. Jeff: That's a good point too. Jo: Yes. I have a Claude folder in my drive and it only has access there. So if you put files in that drive, it might be able to do that. But I know what you mean. I have been using it to help me publish things in German on KDP. Now I can use the browser, so you can actually do that. In terms of uploading the actual file, I know what you mean. These things will change. As we record this, again middle of April, we are almost about to get the next models being Mythos, which might be Claude 4.7 Opus, or also ChatGPT has a new model coming, and these models are getting very powerful. With every shift they can do more things. So as you say, the very first thing to do is ask it, “I want to do this—what are my options?” And some of them, for example, doing an AI-narrated audiobook, ChatGPT and Claude don't do that. You want ElevenLabs or one of the other services for that, but they can tell you what your options are. So that's one thing, but I wondered if you have any thoughts on the gaps that you are seeing. You mentioned one there around file uploads, but— What do you hope might come and some of the things that might be exciting if they arrive? Because you never know, they might be here already. Jeff: There's certainly some movement in some areas. One of the things I'll share is, in March I was at the 2026 CSUN Assistive Technology Conference—CSUN is California State University, Northridge—and they've run this conference for some 40 years now. One of the sessions I went to was from Tara Maisel—I hope I'm pronouncing her last name right. She's a senior project manager in books accessibility at Amazon, and she was doing a session specifically on readability. She had all kinds of statistics and information about what goes into making something readable. One of the things she talked about with AI was the future of personalised reading. If you think about the Kindle app, for example, there's a lot of settings you can make there—font size, colours, brightness, text spacing. There's a lot of tools in there. She was pointing out that potentially readers don't even know what they actually need for the optimised visual reading experience. She sees a world where AI can perhaps do an analysis of your reading behaviour and then help you find the optimal settings. Maybe even multiple optimal settings for, say, if you were reading in a room that had daylight versus at bedtime, and the ways you might shift it. I was almost thinking of this like when you're at the optometrist and they're like, “Which lens is better—this one or that one?” Jo: Oh, sometimes that is very hard. Jeff: Yes. It's that AI could step you through that a little bit to help you find that optimal reading experience in that moment. And then it might even notice, potentially, if you're changing something in the way that you're moving through a page, that it might flag to say, “Hey, do we need to adjust something?” Some other areas that I think are really exciting, for everyone and perhaps particularly for people who are disabled and needing the support of some assistive technology, is what we're seeing in the browsers. OpenAI's Operator has been out for quite a while now, since sometime I think autumn of last year. Perplexity Comet has been around even longer. Then we've got browser extensions from Gemini and Claude that are available, that can let you just type natural language. You know, “Please go find for me jeans in this size that are on sale on this website. Find me the best price for blue jeans on this site and this size,” and it'll just go do it. Which can certainly speed things up for people in the disabled community to find things quickly, to spend time navigating less, and maybe ending up with the AI coming back and saying, “I found these five things. Which one would you like me to buy for you?” Or, “I found this one thing that you do need and it's waiting for you in your shopping cart.” The ability for that on the horizon is an amazing jump from an accessibility point of view. But really it's one of those things that accessibility will then help everyone because we can all just shop that way, if we choose to. These are early days for these browsers and these extensions. The other side of it comes back to basic web accessibility too, because I've seen these types of activities not work so well on a site that may not actually be accessible on its own. A great example is something I ran into with Claude Cowork about a month ago. I was testing to see if it could help me navigate and get things uploaded together for a site where I wanted to upload books, knowing again that it's not going to upload the actual file, but it could fill in the metadata from my master database of metadata stuff. There were areas on the site that it actually couldn't hit the button, because the site itself was also not functional to a screen reader. So there are gaps there. It's early days, but I really see that as an interesting future that'll really help people with disabilities—but again, help everybody too, just manage time better. Jo: I know exactly what you mean there. I've done some collaborative work with Claude Code when it's like, “I can't click the button,” and I'm like, well, I'll click the button—you fill in everything else. Jeff: Exactly. Jo: It's actually quite a funny situation. But goodness, coming back to IngramSpark again—these things need APIs. We need better functions. It's funny because I think a lot of traditional publishers have these APIs or backend upload things that you can do. I'm like, well, we need to get to that with these systems. But I think things will change. Another thing that I think has also shifted is the use of voice. Voice for dictation—it used to be with dictation that you would have to say “comma,” “open quote,” “new line,” and all of that. And you'd also have to make sense. Whereas now I feel like you can just dictate a whole load of things to these AIs and then say, “Tidy that up,” and they will do a lot more than the old situation. So I think voice will also help. Also automatic translation. I don't know if you know this about X, and if you're on X anymore, but just this week they've made it multi-language. So I can read tweets by people who've posted in another language in English. I can read something from Korean or read something that someone French has posted and it gets translated. It has made a huge difference to the content I'm seeing, which is fascinating because I don't think we've ever had this kind of automatic “everything is translated into your language” situation. It's really got me thinking about how [automatic translation] might work for eBooks or other things if the rights are there. I don't know. Have you seen stuff like that? Jeff: There's so much available now with voice and the ability to not have to speak all the other stuff that went with it—comma, full stop, next line. It was a little mind-bending sometimes, trying to think about quote marks and all that stuff. And now it's so good. Different platforms do it to different degrees of ability. Even being able to speak your prompts into the very platforms themselves without having to type all of it. Chronic pain comes to mind, any kind of mobility thing—all the typing would be a drain or maybe even impossible. So the voice ability is so powerful there and unlocks more things. At the same time, those translation abilities—I believe AirPods now have the ability, if you've got the right stuff on your phone, that you could be talking to somebody, they may speak back to you in a language you don't speak, but your AirPods will give it to you in your language. Jo: Hmm. Jeff: Google has, I believe, a live captioning app that you can use. I think there's even a split screen—I don't know if that's available now or something in their future—where you could put the phone on the table and tell it who's looking at what side of the screen, and it'll put the language that I need on my side and the language the other person needs on the other. So there continues to be such a shift in how we're being able to translate stuff that really opens up communication and can open up our books to so many more people. I'm very interested to see—I haven't pulled the trigger on this yet—but how Amazon's auto-translation rolls out and how that's received in terms of the accessibility around our books and being able to put it in someone's hands who doesn't speak—I think it's only English to other languages right now—but who doesn't speak the language it was written in but wants to read that book. We could never, as indies, or really even big five publishers, wouldn't have the money to create custom translations everywhere. But if the AI can help do that and spread those books around so that everybody could have the story they want to read, I think that's such a win for the reading audience. Jo: Yes, I think it's so exciting to think what might be coming, and that's what I want to stay on the side of on the AI discussion. There's enough negativity out there and you can get that information somewhere else, but for me I want us to stay on the positive side of how this helps both the author and the reader. And hopefully the community, to create more and read more and enjoy being human more. Right? Because I find that I do get out more and listen to stuff, or I'm out walking instead of at my desk, and I mean, that's what it's about. I'm pretty excited about the future. How about you? Jeff: I am. I think there are, quite honestly, some scary things that could be out there in the future. I mean, there's been a lot of talk about what Mythos is capable of. But on the other side of it, there are all these advances. I also look back at Google and AlphaFold and what DeepMind was able to do there for science. There's more of that stuff out there, and individually for each of us, spending a little bit of time—and I do have to say, I think you need to spend time on a paid plan because the free stuff doesn't give you the idea of what these platforms are actually capable of. So if you only drop in, even briefly, to experiment on one of the $20-a-month plans and give it your situation, ask it what it can do for you, I think you'll see where, on a personal level, AI will help you unlock some things. It can help you move some things to the next level in your business that for whatever reason you haven't been able to do. You don't have to use it for everything. You may decide that it's still not for you for whatever reason, and that's fine. But I think there's so much to explore here and to let your curiosity run for a little bit to see what's possible and what you might unlock with it. Jo: Brilliant. So where can people find you and your books and everything you do online? Jeff: So pretty much everything lives at JeffAdamsWrites.com. Jo: Well, thanks so much for your time, Jeff. That was great. Jeff: I loved it, Jo. Thanks for having me..The post Accessibility And AI: How New Tools Are Opening Doors For Indie Authors With Jeff Adams first appeared on The Creative Penn.

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Chapters 00:00 Gang Back Together 01:23 Mental Health Corner 01:39 Back Pain Diagnosis 07:09 Dental Insurance Racket 12:34 Post Surge Recovery 19:24 Surgery And Withdrawal 24:36 Sponsor One Skin 26:23 Terminal Widget Reveal 31:24 Widgets And Visualizations 34:51 Release Plans And Review 36:56 Universal Bundle Pricing 37:38 AI Boosts Mark II Sales 39:20 Leaving Oracle Behind 40:03 Ninety Hour Workweeks 41:55 NV Ultra Vaporware Woes 43:17 Missing Collaborators Online 45:09 Dan Peterson Secret App 46:23 The Pit TV Complaints 50:49 ER Nostalgia and Cast 54:01 Season Two and Other Shows 58:33 Gratitude App Picks 01:00:09 AI Tools and Claude Code 01:04:35 Bookshelves and Audiobooks 01:07:10 Wrap Up and Sleep Show Links TerminalWidget Marked 3 Bezel BookShelves Claude app Join the Conversation Merch! Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Transcript Projects and Pitt-falls Gang Back Together Christina: [00:00:00] What’s that? Do you see a podcast update in your feed? Well that’s because you’re back on, on Overtired and, uh, and I’m Christina Warren and I’m joined by, uh, Jeff Severns Guntzel and Brett Terpstra. What do you know? The whole gang is back together. Overtired, everybody what Jeff: Hi everybody. Brett: I need a, we need a party sound. We need a Christina: we do. We need a soundboard. We need a soundboard and we need a, a way to be like what Gangs all here. Some sort of a like a either a a we need a horn. That’s what we need. We need one of those. Those horns they play at at at football games. Jeff: would like that very much. Brett: or that like B. Christina: exactly. Jeff: yeah, Brett: That would really wake people up. Christina: It really would. And, and especially, um, all of us. ’cause I we’re recording this earlier than we ever do. Brett’s been up for a really long time and, uh, I think Jeff is probably like raring to go, but I’m like, I, well now Jeff: raring to go, but I’m warming [00:01:00] up. Christina: Yeah, I, I, I’ve been up since like five 30, so I’m okay too, but yeah. Brett: I wrote an entire shortcuts in shortcut intense interface for my new app this morning, and it’s actually working. I’ve never written for shortcuts before. Christina: Well, Ooh, we will, yeah, you gotta talk to us more about that ’cause I wanna hear more about that. Mental Health Corner Christina: Um, but first I think we should probably do, um, because it’s been a while since we’ve all been together, we should probably do a little bit of a mental health corner. Brett: yeah, Who wants to kick that off? Okay, fine. I will. Jeff: health. Mental health. Silence. Back Pain Diagnosis Brett: I, uh, I, I, my sleep has gotten a little worse than it was before when I told you it was bad. Um, I’m, now, I’m back down to like five hours a night and I just wake up at like 2:00 AM. And like I go to bed by eight or nine and I get up at [00:02:00] 2:00 AM every morning and I just cannot, for the life of me fall back asleep. And for like the first hour I’m up, I’m not even really awake. Um, I’m just kind of sitting on the couch staring at my computer and not be, not able to do anything After about an hour. Um. I, I, I’ll get some coffee, I’ll take my meds and like then it’s kind of like most people’s, like maybe 10:00 AM 11:00 AM um, by, by like 3:00 AM but it’s still wearing me down. Um, I got, so I’ve had back pain, um, for a while now. Uh, I can’t stand up for more than about five minutes and I can’t walk for more than three to five minutes, which has really put a dent in my, um, ability to exercise. And, um, so I finally got, I got an MRI [00:03:00] done, and they. Diagnose me with stenosis, which I think is kind of a, a broad term, but like a couple of the discs in my lower back have collapsed and, um, they, they, they think I can be treated with, uh, with shots and not surgery. Um, so I’m hoping, I’m hoping to get that figured out because, okay, so right now, uh, we, we always go on walks in the wildlife refuge, um, like the wetlands refuge near us, and I love it. We, we see so much cool stuff there and I hadn’t really been able to, but what I found was this little, it’s like. Folded up, it’s like two feet tall, uh, camp chair and it, it’s like a camp stool. And so I carry that with us while we walk and then like every three minutes I’ll like have to set it up on [00:04:00] the side of the trail sit. And if I sit for two minutes, the pain goes away, I can then walk again immediately. Um, but like after, after three to five minutes, like my back freezes up and I, like, I literally, I can’t move anymore. Um, so this little, uh, take carrying a chair and doing it in three minutes stints, um, has at least allowed me to get out and get some green time. But that’s kinda where I’m at. Jeff: What does this little chair look like? Uh Brett: It’s blue Jeff: huh. Brett: and it has four legs and it’s can canvas. Jeff: is it like an adorable little camp chair that you’re supposed to be able to like Brett: I think it’s a toddler’s ch camp chair. Jeff: Excellent. This is the detail I Brett: like, it’s smaller than my butt. Like I’m perching on it, but it’s enough to like get my back, uh, into feeling. Okay. And it’s not too heavy to like carry[00:05:00] Jeff: Show art, but the art, the art is you perching. Just to be really clear. Brett: Yes. My, my 280 pounds pound perched on a two foot camp stool, it’ll be great. Jeff: Wow. Well, I’m glad there’s something like some kind of thing Brett: Yeah, no, it’s actually really good. It’s really good to get the stenosis diagnosis and ’cause for a long time I just assumed because I gained weight, my, my back wouldn’t work anymore, which was depressing. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized I’ve been this heavy before and I have not had this pain. And even after my first like 50 pound sudden weight gain, I didn’t have back pain. So it didn’t make sense that my body just couldn’t handle it, uh, like something else had to be going on. So it was actually much like any diagnosis, I think, um, other than, you know, terminal illness, but for like A [00:06:00] DHD or stenosis or any like mental health condition, it’s a relief to get a diagnosis and find out you weren’t crazy, you weren’t making things up. So yeah, I’m, I’m grateful. Christina: No, I completely like, can, can relate to that. ’cause when I, like with my back, well my cervical spine, um, it was kind of a similar thing. Obviously mine was more acute and it was a different scenario because I got, um, like the, you know, diagnosis relatively quickly, although it still felt like it took longer than, than I wanted it to, to, to get my MRIs and whatnot. Um, but it was similar to you. It was like kind of a relief to be like, oh, okay, so you have like a major problem. This isn’t just you being a wimp and, Brett: Yeah, exactly. Christina: exhilarating pain. Right. Like excruciating pain. Right. And, and just even having that, even knowing, okay, I don’t love that I have to go through [00:07:00] this whole thing. Um, I’m, I’m still like relieved to have a diagnosis and a plan forward. Dental Insurance Racket Brett: Oh, and also I, so I’m on state. Healthcare, and that includes, um, Delta Dental, but it’s this weird version of Delta Dental that nobody in my town accepts. Um, so I have to, I have to drive 45 minutes to get dental care and even then they can’t, he can’t do root canals or anything. And I needed two root canals and that would’ve involved driving two and a half hours or three hours and then going back to the 45 minute away place. And so what I did was I took the extra money I had saved outside of my, like, nest egg savings, but like my working savings. And I paid for a year of actual Delta Dental, um, and started going to a place [00:08:00] just really close to me and, um. It turns out that the best dental health insurance is still shit like it. I don’t know how much dental work you guys get done, but it is, Christina: it’s, it is crappy. Brett: it’s a, it’s, it’s a racket. And I actually watched a YouTube video on why dental insurance is a scam. And it like interviewed Dennis who actually take these like Delta Dental and the Medicaid dentists. Um, and it is truly a scam. And what I found, and this is much the same experience, uh, Christina talked about with her, um, MRII think it was that you did a cash pay. Um, I talked to the dentist and I said, do you have a cash paid discount? And he’s like, oh yeah. And basically. I can just pay cash and do everything for about 60% of the normal cost, and that is better than what [00:09:00] Delta does for me in most cases. Plus, I need so much work that my $2,000 cap with Delta is gone. Christina: Well, I was, I was gonna say like, so when I joined Microsoft, Microsoft used to have really good. Dental insurance, um, respectively speaking as, as good as it can be. But there were still, you know, caps on how much work would be done. But I found like a good person to go to. ’cause I had an incident, um, about a year after I moved to Seattle, maybe less than that, where um, I had to have an emergency root canal and like that sucked. Um, like I went into a normal dentist. She was like, this is what you need. And then I had to like, take an Uber, like over to a guy and see him like that day at like 5:00 PM and I’m like, you know, all like drugged up and, and getting the root canal. And that was not great. And I needed a lot of, of, of work done. Um, and so we split it over like she was a really good dentist and so we split it over. We were like, I was coming close to. The, the end of the calendar year. So she was like, okay, we’re gonna do all of this work and then we will start the next year [00:10:00] when things go forward. And like she knew how to play the system and was like a really good dentist. Well then Micro, then I went to GitHub. GitHub used, um, you know, uh, Delta Dental. And, and that can vary based on plan. Microsoft is apparently on them too. Google also had them on a slightly different plan, and it’s like you never know what you’re getting. And yeah, to your point, because if you need a lot of work done, if you have anything specialized, if you’re, you’re lucky if you get the right plan and you can see a provider in your area, great. But if you don’t, to your point, it is often, this is just fucked up. Like, especially if you’re having to pay out of pocket for it anyway. If it’s part of your employer, you know, benefits, maybe it’s a little different, but it’s like even then it can still wind up being less expensive to just pay the cash stuff than whatever your deductibles are, which have a cap anyway. And, and, and, and, and then, yeah, the, the, the way that the, the Medicaid or, or even insurance pricing works, stuff that they might charge you a very nominal fee for, for like a cleaning or whatever is, or a cavity fill [00:11:00] is gonna be, you know, they’re gonna bill insurance like three or four times that Brett: Right, exactly. So I pay, I pay like 800 bucks for a year of Delta, and that gives me basically $2,000 to work with, plus whatever price they can negotiate. Um, but like you said, like they, they bill three times. Um, so like what still comes out of my like $2,000 pot, um, is higher than I would’ve paid with Christina: If you just paid cash, if you just had an $800 budget, or if you got like, yeah, that’s the thing. Okay. This is an AI app that somebody should build. And I’m saying this hoping that maybe something the audience will, or maybe one of us could vibe code it, because this seems like this would be a relatively easy calculator to do with like certain providers if they, if they, you know, list their things where you could like run the costs and be like, okay, this is, I’m gonna put in this number. This is what my, you know, provider’s fees are. This is what my [00:12:00] insurance thing is. Um, Brett: what my cash pay Christina: this is what my cash pay is. Is it cheaper for me to spend $800 a year on Delta Dental or to just pay cash directly with my, my dentist? Brett: Yeah. Have you as I’ve, as I’ve said to people who have pitched ideas to me in the past, you’re talking about a spreadsheet? Christina: Yes. It is a spreadsheet to be completely out. Yes. But I can now use cloud code to, to to, to, you know, figure out the formula for me is the real thing. Brett: Yeah. There you go. All right. Who’s up? Post Surge Recovery Jeff: Dr. To, um, I can talk, uh, uh, I’m, I mean, I’m doing really well. Uh, I we’re a couple months past, or, you know, a couple months past the operation Metro surge stuff here in January and February, in a little bit of December, but really January. And that was, I’d never kind of experienced like a, a full [00:13:00] taxing of every single person and kind of person I knew and which was amazing. Um, and, uh, and it took a minute when things settled here, um, to, for everybody to kind of figure out what. How to just even enter into the world every day because everything had been driven by what was happening on a almost hourly to hourly basis for, for some time. And, um, and so I kind of moved through that, that period, which was like quite a sort of come down, uh, of adrenaline and, and amygdala sparking. Um, and, and have kind of smoothed a little bit. And, um, and I’m just doing well. I’m having a nice, a nice goal of it right now. Christina: Good. Great to hear. Brett: I, I guess that everything’s relative. Right? Jeff: Yeah. Everything’s relative. Yeah. Yeah. But I think I would call this a nice go of it, uh, even outside the context of comparing [00:14:00] to, to Operation Metro Surge. Brett: that’s, that’s, I, I’m happy for you. That’s awesome. Jeff: I think actually the last time I was on the podcast was with you, Christina, in January right after we had had a raid in our alley, which was even before the surge Christina: You before the big surge, even before Jeff: of an early start. Christina: I was gonna say even before, like I, I, I don’t even know if, if, if the, the, the murder had happened. Um, Jeff: not at all. In fact, we only had 100 extra ice agents here at the time and within a couple of weeks there’d be a woman in front of my house, uh, being pulled out of her car ’cause she was following ice agents and throwing me her phone as she gets tossed into a, into a fucking ice truck. And like it was just, everything happened so fast and so slowly all at the same time. And, and obviously there’s still all sorts of stuff going on, but it is indisputably not what it was in January and February. Brett: I was gonna ask you about that. ’cause like the total number of deportations is only slightly [00:15:00] lower right now than it was during the surge. Um, and they, they removed, they added like, what, 3000 agents and they removed like 800 of them. So, Jeff: they’ve removed way more than Brett: Hey, have they Jeff: oh, yeah. We’re down to, I haven’t, I don’t wanna say the numbers because I haven’t looked at them. We’re, we’re back down to like the high hundreds and we, our baseline is like 1 25. Brett: Okay. Jeff: Yeah. You can tell. Um, it’s, yeah, you can tell. And I, and I’ve been down to the WPO Federal building a a few times, um, which is where ICE was kind of headquartered and there’s just the level of activity there is very low. Um, they had some new vehicles come in at one point about a month ago, but mostly those are replacing rentals that they were using. So it wasn’t like people took it as kind of an indication that they were, you know, staffing up or suiting up again. But it was really just kind of replacing their, their really weird, like sort of duct tape together invasion. Um, it’s kinda like in Iraq when they decided they were gonna [00:16:00] actually armor the Humvees, it was kind of like a little bit of a switch of, of vehicles. Um. Yeah, it’s much different. And like, you know, all the people either in my life or in my community that were in hiding or not, I mean, for the most part, not in hiding anymore vulnerable folks and undocumented folks. And, um, so it’s like, it’s qualitatively and nervous, systemly different Brett: Yeah. Yeah. Jeff: for everybody and still sucks. And there’s still a risk and a threat and, and a horror. And a terror. Brett: Yeah, down here in southern Minnesota, I have not gotten a call to do a food delivery or a grocery delivery for, yeah, a couple months. Um, so yeah, I guess it really has calmed down across the state. Jeff: Yeah. Thank God. I mean, who knows what they’re up to that isn’t as visible, but thank God Brett: exactly. Jeff: over. So yeah, I, I mean it’s, and I actually just had my, my brother’s been in town and every time someone kind of comes to visit, they wanna like. You know, kind of hear or take in what the thing was and you start describing it again, and [00:17:00] now it just, I mean, it felt like a dream at the time. It just felt like, how could this be real? But you were just so in it, like every single person, like you said, Brett, like people were doing grocery deliveries or people were, you know, cooking food for the people that were kind of on the front lines, or you were following ice, or you were dispatching people to follow ice, whatever. It was like every. Single person I could think of as doing something. And uh, and, and so when you try to describe it now, when you look around, especially in my neighborhood where they were all over, um, it it, it seems like, was this, was this real, um, like, was it even real because like, I don’t know, like the end here. ’cause this could go on forever, but I don’t know if any of you saw the footage that went around of a high school called Roosevelt High School, where, uh, where Bovino showed up and there was all this crazy shit and the, the footage of this, um, went around the country and like it was, you know, reposted by freaking everybody that was my son’s school in my neighborhood. And, and so like, it was just this constant thing of like, bovino at my son’s school, binos at my gas station. Like, it was just [00:18:00] utterly insane. And now, and, and every street felt almost, you could feel ice on the streets. Like you would see ghost cars where they had taken people or whatever. You could like, feel ’em on the streets. And so you walk around, you walk around the same streets now, and it’s just birds and kids playing and you’re just like, did that, was that real? Brett: There, there was a tow truck driver that was interviewed who had taken it upon himself to tow those ghost cars for free back to their origin. Um, and just like leave them for people. Jeff: at least, or he would take them in and not charge if you came in for them. And it’s, and that’s just it. Everybody, everybody. It was incredible. It was incredible. Christina: It’s crazy. Jeff: Yeah. All Christina: I hope, I genuinely hope that they’ve lost interest and, and have moved on to other things. Brett: Like Seattle. Christina: yeah. Well, I mean, Seattle is obviously a very different situation and, and that had a, a longstanding, I think, impact. Um, and, and I, I, I. I’ve said this, I said this at the time, people who made that really bad were the [00:19:00] activists who came in outside the so-called activists and putting that in quotation marks who came in, who didn’t even live in the city and agitated things and made things way worse than, than they, than it should have been. Um, but yeah, but I hope that it’s like Seattle, that it just kind of falls like the, the government doesn’t come back and, and continue this, you know, reign of terror. Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Surgery And Withdrawal Christina: Um, well, I’ll, I’ll be quick. So I, I had surgery since I guess the last time I was on, Jeff: Sure did. Christina: that went well. Um, the surgery itself, I’m still in some pain, um, in my shoulder after the surgery, uh, which was not like you were fi fixing my cervical spine. But, um, they, uh, I guess however it worked, like I, I think as muscular, um, I, I’ve been going to to to PT for the last few weeks. Um, but I still having some, some shoulder pain. That’s, that’s getting better. Um, the hardest thing was actually some of the medication stuff. So [00:20:00] I, uh, gabapentin, um, I know it’s a lifesaver for a lot of people. I don’t have a good reaction to it. Like I’m one of those people. Like, it, it a, it makes me feel kind of loopy. I don’t like it. B it’s very difficult for me to sleep on it. Um, which, which is a problem and, you know, but, but the big thing is it just kind of makes me like, feel like I’m not kind of in my own head. Like I feel like, don’t know, like, um, altered on it. I, I would say. And so I went off they gabapentin and no one told me, and I am gonna put this as a PSA out there. ’cause I know a lot of people take it. Do not go off of that cold Turkey. Jeff: mm. Christina: They didn’t tell me that. Um, which someone should have, but no one told me that. And it can actually cause seizures if you do other things. But in my case, the real thing was that I had withdrawal. That was some of the worst withdrawal I’ve ever had. In my life ever. And, um, it like awful, like awful, awful, awful to the point that to go off the Gabapentin and they had me on like a, a decent dosage. It [00:21:00] took me a month because I had to keep going basically down like one pill like every week to step down. And, but I mean, I was getting, you know, like, like hot and cold sweats, you know, like feeling like my teeth were gnashing, you know, like nauseous, just like awful, awful stuff. So it took me, you know, a month to go off of that. I had to extend my medical leave in part because of the medication withdrawal stuff, because I was like, I can’t go back to work if I’m gonna be like, still dealing with, with medication bullshit. Um, so, um, that was actually, you know, in some ways like more, uh, of an issue than like recovering from the surgery itself, which was major. Like I, I tried to kind of downplay like what it was, but it was, it was major surgery and um. Um, I’m glad that it’s over. So, you know, onwards and upwards. I’m, I’ve been back at work for a couple weeks. Um, still kind of settling in on that, but, uh, but yeah. Brett: That [00:22:00] withdrawal sounds terrible. Usually you have to do opiates to get that kind of fun. Christina: Yeah, well that was the thing. I saw somebody on, I read it, which of course is anecdotal. I don’t usually look for this stuff, but sometimes you just wanna feel like, okay, is it, is it common for me to have this withdrawal or not? And somebody, and one of the subreddits was like, this was worse than coming off of heroin and I in a jail cell, and I should know because I’ve done that. And I was like, okay, I, I’m not going to equate it at that level, you know, for, for me. But it was definitely like that bad. It was, let me put it this way, it was bad enough that at first I thought. It was the opiate withdrawal because I, they gave me some, some oxy, um, um, contin. Um, and then the doctor was like, no, that’s not a high enough dosage. This is, you know, um, it, it, it probably was gabapentin and, and it, it. What pissed me off is that one of the physician’s assistants or whatever, when I’m telling like my doctor about this, I’m like, okay, if I need another nerve drug, then we need to find something [00:23:00] else. I can go on select so I can go on, you know, something else. But, but I, I clearly can’t stay on this. A, they kind of gaslit me because I’m a woman and obviously my pain and my symptoms can’t be real. So that’s like number one. And that’s just a fact. I don’t care if you’re a male or female doctor, they don’t take you seriously. I’ve complained about that before. Um, b like she had the nerves to say, she was like, well, you know, if the withdrawal is that bad, then why don’t you just stay on the medic medication? It’s not that it, it, it, it’s fine. I’m like, no, it’s not fine. It makes me feel altered. You’re telling me that it’s for nerve pain, that my nerve pain should be fixed if my nerve pain isn’t fixed and if I need something for nerve stuff, then that’s one thing and we could maybe look at an alternative, something that doesn’t make me feel loopy and lets me sleep. But if your suggestion is, oh, to avoid the bad withdrawal, just stay on the drug. I’m sorry, what the fuck are we doing? Um, and, and then the doctor’s like, well, you know, we get this all the time. We never see side effects. And then I looked it up, you know, in the actual drug literature and no, there are side effects exactly like the ones I experienced. So I was like, I recognize that. [00:24:00] I always am usually that like one percentile person who gets like the weird side effect. Like, that’s who I am. I get that. But Brett: crazy. I’ve, I’ve gone off of gabapentin. It sucks. I You’re not crazy at all. Christina: yeah. But, but it just, it just was frustrating to me that like the, the suggestions like, we’ll just stay on it. It’s like, no, like that’s, that’s, that’s not actually gonna be a thing anyway, but onward and upward. Jeff: Yeah. Wow. I’m glad you’re through that. Like Christina: Yeah, me too. Me too. Okay. Sponsor One Skin Christina: Well, I know we have some other topics we wanna get to, but before we do that, um, let’s take a moment to talk about our sponsor of today’s episode One Skin. So, um, you know, I, I’ve gone through a number of different things with my skincare routine over the years. Some have been more effective than other. Um, you know, um, my skin kind of goes back and forth between being too oily and too dry. I’m kind of in a dry [00:25:00] phase right now, and, um, there are tons of products out there that, that promise results. And then you, you get them in the, and they’re, they don’t necessarily work. So, uh, I wanna talk to you about One Skin, which was founded by scientists, and it’s dedicated to longevity. And, um, the, the brand is actually committed to being real science over marketing hype. And so, uh. What they wind up. Uh, what, how, how this works is that they use OSO uh, zero one, which is a proprietary peptide, which is designed to help deactivate the damaged cells that contribute to aging skin. And, um, I’ve been using one skin, um, for a little bit, and I, I’m, I’m liking it. I like how it makes my face feel. Um, I like, um, the fact that, uh, it’s. You know, what the peptides are supposed to do is help basically, uh, support collagen, uh, uh, of production and, and, and strengthening the skin barrier. Um, I’m not alone. There are over 10,005 star reviews and there’s validation from clinical studies and, and it’s making a name for itself in the skincare industry.[00:26:00] So if you are interested in trying one skin for yourself, you can get 15% off your order with the code Overtired at one skin.co/ Overtired. That’s 15% off at one skin. Do co slash Overtired and use that code Overtired. So thank you one skin for supporting our show and check them out. Brett: Awesome. Terminal Widget Reveal Brett: Do you guys, can I tell you about terminal widget? Jeff: Terminal widget. Yes. Set it up. Terminal widget. Brett Terpstra. What’s Brett: so I, I, I wanted, I had scripts running in the background and I wanted a quick way to check them and I thought it should be easy to put. Script output into a, like a widget on the desktop. And I could not find anything that actually worked. Like Shellfish has a widget, but it, it takes minutes to update and it’s flaky and, and the other apps out there [00:27:00] did not work for me. So I thought I would build my own. So I think I started it a month ago. Um, I built a, just something for, you can run a terminal command and update a progress bar or an image or, uh, like sparkline text or just straight up text output from your. Terminal, all kinds of charts and everything, and, and it updates instantly on your desktop, uh, with like a 0.5 to one second delay, uh, which I wasn’t able to find anywhere else. I had to like, use JSON payloads and like basically a cloud kit watcher, um, cloud kit because I did also port it to iOS. And, um, so I can run one command in my terminal or from a script in the background and have my iPhone and my desktop update with progress. Um, I am working [00:28:00] on a watch version of it that is not, I, I have it working in the app, but I wanna make it so it works as a complication. Um, that’s gonna take a little more doing, uh, but this morning and yesterday I spent working on. The Apple script and shortcuts interfaces for it. And I hate designing Apple Script dictionaries, uh, because there’s no, like, there’s no standard for like terminology and there’s no like golden way to do it. And I always end up messing it up even when I do have a plan. This time I think I actually succeeded in building out a dictionary that makes semantic sense and is somewhat. Predictable if you’ve ever written Apples script before, but I also added all of the widgets can be controlled from shortcuts. You just drag in like a chart widget into your shortcut and pass in like a value or like a, a chart of values. It can [00:29:00] do matrices and sign waves and, and line grass and bar charts, and it’s pretty nuts. You can check it out. It’s not available yet, but all of the documentation and all of the screenshots are at Terminal widget app. Um, and I am, I’m pretty impressed with myself and Christina: yeah. Brett: that’s what I’ve been working on while waiting for Mark III to make it through app store reviews so I can finally publish that. I, my latest rejection first, I got rejected, like a couple legitimate. Uh, concerns, but then I had a CLI that I wrote that was embedded in the app bundle and there was an option to create a sim link in your, in your terminal to use the CLI. And this was just a convenience method for like, you give it command line flags and it converts it into URL handlers and they rejected me for Christina: [00:30:00] I was gonna say, I was gonna say, they don’t let you do that. Like what I’ve seen with other apps do is usually there’s like a, um, in the app store is that usually you have to download a helper to install the CL. Brett: right. So what I did, uh, to get past the rejection was completely rip out the binary from the bundle. Uh, if you go to the install cli CLI tool menu item, it simply takes you to a webpage where there’s a, a notarized signed PKG file, or you can install from Homebrew, but it’s completely separate from the app store. And the last rejection said that I was requiring users to download an external app in order to use the app. Which is ridiculous on its face. Like it’s, it’s a convenience method. In no way do you need to download it. Um, there’s no requirement. In fact, it’s almost buried that you would even want it. Um, [00:31:00] and so I argued with the reviewer for a couple days ’cause they were replying like once a day. Um, and then they told me I had to go through a re uh, the appeal process. So I submitted an appeal at four 50 this morning. We’ll see how long that takes now. But in the meantime, terminal Widget is keeping me sane. I’m having a lot of fun with that. Widgets And Visualizations Jeff: I have some terminal widget questions. I’m looking at the site right now. Um, so talk to me about, um, talk to us about your, your initial use case, like was, which you’ve kind of described already, which is you just wanted to be able to check on these scripts Brett: Yeah. I just wanted a progress Jeff: But then Brett Terpstra kicks in ’cause like I just wanted a progress bar and now I’m looking at all the flags and everything else that you could have. You know, I’m curious like of all of the options that are in there, I want you to just share something that might not be intuitive or might not guess you can do. And then I’m curious of like if you have something you’re like, and what I [00:32:00] really want it to be able to do is. Brett: So you can pass it up to a hundred numbers, like a, a list of space or canvas, separated numbers that you can output from whatever script you’re developing. And you can have it, uh, output a sine wave or a um, uh, a waveform. I like the waveform visualization for it. And so you can get like pretty cool visualizations out of. Tabular data basically. And I also just added, um, tabular, like you can, you can give it a CSV file and it’ll generate a table for you. And it really only works well on like the large widget size. Um, but on both, on both iOS and Mac, uh, the tables look pretty good. Jeff: Nice. Christina: That’s awesome. I, I have a, I have a nerdy, uh, well, but less nerdy question. [00:33:00] Um, on the Terminal WIT app website, um, you have like a, a video of a, like, you know, showing off like, um, you know, your, your, your terminal app open and, um, the, the text being typed out. What did you use to create that? Did you use a remotion or did you use something else to generate that Brett: I scripted that, um, I, I wrote if there’s a helper Christina: charm or something? Brett: No, Christina: Okay. Brett: I, it’s a helper. It’s a helper script that it, it clears the screen and then it takes a table of commands and it types the command out with like a jitter delay. So it looks somewhat natural, like typing. And then it actually runs the command in the background. And then once the command’s finished, it clears the screen and does the same thing with the next one. Um, so I can just feed it like a, a, uh, a file with all the commands. I wanna run one per line. Um, and it just types them out and executes them. Jeff: That’s awesome. Christina: Cool. Brett: I know, [00:34:00] like I looked into like using like as, as as cinema. Um, and it just to get that kind of really. Smooth, rapid typing out of it, uh, without, you know, all the backspace and everything. I, it was, I found it difficult to program it to, to code it. And by the time I had it figured out, I figured I should just write my own script for it. Christina: Yeah. There’s, um, there, there’s a, a. Service called Remotion, which can do some of that sort of graphical work, which is what I thought you might’ve used at first. Um, charm has a thing called VHS, which is basically like a CLI home home recorder, which is pretty cool. Um, and I’ve used that before, but yeah, I was just kind of curious, um, what you did, but yeah, you just built your own. That’s awesome. Very cool. Release Plans And Review Christina: Um, now for your, your, when do you think like, because I, I noticed that you have like for for blog book and for terminal widget, you have like coming soon. Is that like, ’cause [00:35:00] you’re still kind of like working on stuff or, um, are you going through review hell with those as well? Brett: I haven’t even tried getting either of those reviewed. Um, blog book I is approved for test flight, um, and anyone who wants in on that can just contact me. It is getting the slowest development out of all my projects right now just because it is, it’s a more niche app that I don’t think is gonna make a ton of money. But, um, mark III is where most of my effort is going. Then I’m working on porting mark three’s, uh, store kit stuff into NV Ultra, and then I can focus on trying to usher terminal widget through app review. Um, I have a feeling that’s going to go very poorly and I may end up just releasing outside the app store, but because it has an iOS Christina: I was gonna say with the iOS component is the hard part. Brett: I kind of have to, so we’ll see what happens. Christina: Yeah. [00:36:00] ’cause I was gonna say, ’cause like, I mean I guess what you could do is if you did something for the iOS F would make it different though. Like if it’s just, ’cause I’m sure it has, it’s working out. It’s pretty much just remote instance that’s showing Brett: No, no, it’s got, it’s a, Christina: you, you built in your own terminal emulator into it. Brett: no, there’s no, no, no, no, no, no. There’s no terminal in this app at all. Like, you use it from whatever terminal or from shortcuts. Um, so it’s all native widgets on both. Christina: right. I was just saying in terms of the app store thing, like, I guess like if since there’s not a native terminal on, on iOS, it’s, I’m assuming that it’s, it’s a remote widget is what I was trying to get at. Brett: Essentially, yes. But if you write a shortcut on iOS that updates the widget, it updates both iOS and Mac os. So it is usable entirely. You could just buy it for iOS and, and it would be a functional app. Christina: okay. Okay. Universal Bundle Pricing Brett: But I do intend, I hope [00:37:00] to sell it as one universal bundle. So you pay like 9 99 and you get the iOS, the Mac, and the watch app without having to buy for every platform separately. Um, I just don’t see it being like such a valuable app that it’s worth making people go through that rigamarole. Christina: right. No, I was just trying to think. Brett: and everyone I’ve shown it to so far has been excited about it and the most common response I get is I will buy this as soon as I figure out what I would use it for. I’m like, yeah, okay. Jeff: Okay, fine. Awesome. AI Boosts Mark II Sales Jeff: And can you talk about how, because the whole world now works in markdown marked, has gotten a bump because I think that’s an amazing story. Brett: Well, yeah, it was. was a few months ago now, maybe six months. Um, my sales just started increasing and I was looking everywhere through all my traffic and all my logs [00:38:00] to figure out where this, where these people were coming from. Um, and it was eventually pointed out to me that if you ask any agent, any AI agent what you should use to view markdown, um, they would point you to Mark two. And it was now, for the last four months, five months, it’s been doing five times the sales year over year. What it was doing, Jeff: How close is it to the highest it ever was? Brett: um, the highest it ever was was actually when it was only 2 99. And Gruber wrote about it. Uh, back in this is like 2000. This was over a decade ago. And, um, back when, like one tweet from Gruber meant like success and that I made that year, I made almost a hundred thousand dollars on it.[00:39:00] Um, this is nowhere near that. This is doing like Jeff: But it’s a highly unexpected bump, right? Like in a delightful, delightful bump. Brett: yeah. It’s doing, it’s doing without even releasing Mark iii, I’m making about half of my former salary off of it. Jeff: Nice. I’m happy for you. Leaving Oracle Behind Brett: Also, uh, one year, um, in two days I’ll be one year out of Oracle and I quite happy about it. Jeff: that’s great. I was wondering about that, Brett: I don’t miss my corporate job. I miss, I miss some aspects, health insurance, paychecks, things like that. But Jeff: that aren’t at all about the content of the job, right? Brett: Well, like that stuff has never mattered all that much to me if I’m happy doing the work. And I really wasn’t happy doing the work. Christina: Well, that’s, that’s the thing. I’m glad that you’re, I’m glad things have been going well. I’m glad that, that the, the agents have, uh, been telling everybody about Mark two. Hopefully they will also tell them [00:40:00] about Mark three. Um. Ninety Hour Workweeks Brett: My, my dentist was doing was doing small talk with me, and he knows I’m a app developer and he asked me, so how many hours a week do you work? And I happen to know the answer because I had just read my timing app report for last week and I said, 90. And he said, oh wow. How much do you make? And he’s like, if you don’t mind me asking. So I told him and uh, it saying it out loud, it’s basically like 20 bucks an hour I get paid. And like, it’s not nothing, but once these apps are out and I can sit back and just make some passive income off of it, I will, I’ll be much Jeff: So it’s 90 because you’re, you’re developing multiple things right now and, and you love it. Brett: I’m pretty much, I’m pretty much on my machine all day except for like an hour for [00:41:00] like getting out, exercising, getting on my recumbent bicycle and an hour for eating. Um, Jeff: Is it time for you to get a trike? I’m serious. Brett: I don’t, I don’t know, I, I actually want to try just getting back on a regular bicycle. Jeff: Hmm. Brett: Um, but I, yeah, like a recumbent tricycle, that’d be pretty awesome. Jeff: dad uses him. He actually just converted one to an to an E-bike. Plus it’s hot now ’cause of DTF St. Louis. Christina: right. Jeff: Awesome. Uh, is that it for your app development because wow, that’s like, uh, quite a, quite a deal. You got anything else in the cooker? Brett: Well, like we talked about blog book. Right? Jeff: Yep. Brett: Okay. Yeah, that’s, that’s what I got. Jeff: Nice. Brett: that’s my big ones. NV Ultra Vaporware Woes Brett: NV Ultra is, um, literally only waiting on me to [00:42:00] get Mark three out and then NV Ultra will be out. And it is well passed a time when it would’ve been a smash hit. Um, when, when Nv, when NVL first started dying before, uh, before something like obsidian really Christina: I was gonna say, if sitting is unfortunately Brett: yeah, they obsidian and five or six other apps have really eaten up market share for, uh, NV Ultra. But it would be nice just to get it published. I have been talking about a replacement for NV for over a decade, and Jeff: Am I gonna get sued if I say this is not your fault. Brett: It’s, it’s not my fault, like none of them have been my fault. Like they’ve all fallen through on me. Um, but I think people don’t believe me anymore when I say it’s coming. In fact, it, in fact, if you ask an AI agent, they will tell you that MB Ultra is vaporware.[00:43:00] Christina: Well, Jeff: a lot ai. Christina: I mean, look at this point, even though yeah, it’s been in beta and you’ve had other things going on. I mean, like it, you know, again, it wasn’t your fault, but, but, but you know, we’ve all been in those situations where you’re like, it’s coming, it’s coming. Or this thing is like, at a certain point you’re like, okay. Like Brett: Yeah. Missing Collaborators Online Brett: Well that there was Bit Writer Christina: TechMate too. Brett: Bit Writer was one that preceded NV Ultra and I was working on that with David Halter, who was a co contributor on VT and. He disappeared. I don’t know if he died or what, but about years ago he just stopped replying to emails, disappeared off of Slack, disappeared from the internet. Just I, and I don’t ha I don’t know his next of kin. I don’t have anyone I can like ask, Hey, whatever happened to David. So if you’re out there, if you’re listening, I’d love to hear from you just to know you’re alive. Just to, just to [00:44:00] check in. Um, I’ve actually had a few people disappear over the last couple months that ha it’s been disconcert when, when you’re used to hearing from someone at least, you know, once a week even. But some of these people were like every day, um, I. Jeff: from them, meaning seeing them somewhere or corresponding or. Brett: Uh, online. These are, these are people I only know online. So like seeing them on Macedon or Facebook or getting emails or text messages from them. Um, a couple of them were in their eighties or nineties, and so it’s not, Jeff: That might be your problem. Brett: it, it’s not out of the realm of the possibility that they have passed on. Um, but some of them were younger than me and one of them has come back after two weeks of messaging, like every other day, like, Hey, are you okay? Haven’t heard from you. Um, finally they’re like, oh, yeah, I’m here. [00:45:00] And offered no explanation for where they’d been or why they went silent, but I didn’t pry either. So. Dan Peterson Secret App Jeff: What is your project with Dan Peterson? That’s on our, our list. Brett: I don’t know if I’m allowed to say a lot about it, but I’ve been working. Dan Peterson is one, the original designer of one password and worked with them for like 20 years before he struck out on his own. And we’ve teamed up, we’re working on a couple things, but one is a a, an IO iOS app that he has put in. I, I don’t even know how many hours into the design of it, like 3D modeling, spline rendering, and um, and then we ported it into an iOS interface. And it is gorgeous. It, it will it when, when it gets to market, which we’re hoping to have it in [00:46:00] testate in time for Max stock in July. Um, it’ll be the best looking app I’ve ever been a part of. It’s gonna be so cool. Jeff: Nice. Christina: That’s awesome. Jeff: Busy time. Brett: Yeah. Jeff: It’s Christina: That’s awesome. Jeff: What else do we got? I mean, Brett, you showed up with a big list. The Pit TV Complaints Christina: I was gonna, is anybody watching anything? Uh, good on TV or rewatching anything? Jeff: I have a serious complaint to put into the world, so I’ve avoided the pit for a long time. Uh, just ’cause I’m, I don’t, I’m not a huge like yeah, Brett: drama. Jeff: it is great. Except are there two separate writing teams for the stars and staff and the people that come in as patients? Because the writing for the people that come in patients is. Awful. They acting sometimes too. Sometimes there’s some people that sell it. I’m only through season one, uh, but I was like, I have been yelling at the tv, uh, about this [00:47:00] for some time. Um, besides also yelling at the TV for the point at which, um, our young friend with a w as a last name Whitaker, who, uh, gets blood all over his face and then they don’t actually immediately clean it up. Um, uh, so I yell at the screen and I like the show, but I yell. I haven’t had a TV show that I’m like, oh, for fuck’s sake now. I mean, I can handle that in The Walking Dead. I can handle that in that kind of movie. But in the ER thing I’m like, come on, you can’t get a writer to handle the patients. I don’t understand. You’ve got an incredible cast, like an incredible cast. Brett: It’s actually all ad-libbed. Jeff: all ad-libs, like the clown. There’s a clown, I won’t give it up, but there’s a, there’s a clown that has been through a mass event and he’s in the, uh, he’s in the ER with his clown makeup on still, and some blood going down his face and at some point he looks around and he goes, what a circus. I just think they, I think, I don’t understand. This confuses me very much [00:48:00] in TV shows when you’re like, okay, you’ve got a great writing team, but clearly you have a separate writing team that is doing just this little job that is actually quite important. So that’s my complaint about the pit. Otherwise, I like it quite a bit. I’m very excited to start season two, probably this weekend. Christina: it’s a good season. It’s a good season. So, yeah, ’cause, because, because I, I, I, um, it, it ended last week and I’m, I’m a big fan of the pit. I will say this, the pit fandom is insane and not in a good way. Like these are people who don’t understand how to watch television shows and don’t understand. Like how television shows work, and, and then also become very entitled about like, how, like their vision of the characters and things should be on a level. Like the last time I’ve seen it, it it’s the same, it’s similar with heated rivalry, but it’s somehow worse because this isn’t like a genre show like that. It’s like low quality for like, you know, middle aged like white women, um, in the suburbs. Um, who, who just like to see two, two hockey players. [00:49:00] You know? Fuck. Um, like, like the pit is actually like, I’m not gonna call it Prestige TV because it’s not er level, but it’s a very good show and it’s extremely well acted. And I think the writing, um, I, I think make a good point about the, uh, the patients not getting as good of storylines as the doctors. But, um, Jeff: no. I don’t need storylines. I Christina: no, I I mean the Jeff: words they Christina: Yeah. Yeah. No, that, that’s, that, that, that that’s what I mean, like, like that, that, that, that I, I, I hear, I hear your Jeff: Because where there’s a patient storyline, those are almost exclusively great. Christina: Yeah, it, so you’re more talking about like, like, like the kind of the background characters, like, kind of like the, the, the one-offs. Yeah, I think, I think that’s fair. Well, a lot of the writing staff and like executive producers are doctors or people who have like, you know, worked, um, extensively in healthcare. And so I, I, I wonder if like, that’s kind of part of it, um, where Brett: they’re really good at writing the doctor’s parts. They’re not so good at Jeff: so good. Oh my God, so Christina: so good at doing the doctor’s parts and, and the procedures. Like they wanna be medically [00:50:00] accurate and like they really, they really are committed to that. There are, um, there are a couple of, I’m trying to think, um, the, the Whitaker thing, I think that was just, I enjoyed that myself. Like the fact that he’s always getting blood Jeff: Oh, I loved the bit, I just couldn’t believe that. I couldn’t believe that through quite, you know, a couple of different bits after that. The blood’s still on his face. I’m like, there has to be a protocol to get blood off your face. Christina: No, there definitely has to be, but I mean, part also one of the running gags first season two. And, and sorry for spoilers, for anyone who hasn’t watched the pit Jeff: Wait, I’m gonna close my ears. Okay. Go ahead. Wave when you’re done. Christina: Rob Robbie can’t pee. And, uh, this wasn’t a real spoiler, but like, but one of the things is like, you know, Robbie’s never able to like, go to the bathroom. Like he can never find a way to pee. So Jeff: I’m back. Brett: you’re safe now. Jeff: I’m back. Christina: you, you’re safe. And I didn’t spoil anything. I was ER Nostalgia and Cast Jeff: The other thing I’ll say about the pit that surprised I did not watch ER and not ’cause out of bad attitude. Uh, it was just a point in my life when I wasn’t watching a lot of tv. Um, I also didn’t realize until I was [00:51:00] like five episodes in that Noah Wiley was a big character in er. I think that’s really cool. Um, Christina: Okay. Okay. I, I understand you weren’t watching TV then, but how did you not realize that Noah Wiley was Jeff: I didn’t know Noah Wiley’s name. Like I, this is just not, I don’t hold names of people. I, you know, I also, on the albums, I love that. I don’t remember song, I don’t know song titles half the time. Um, so I don’t mind You can, you can be very disappointed and express it. And I will accept it. I will receive it. Christina: No, I’m just shocked Jeff: to be better. Christina: because I, I mean, ’cause because I was like 10 years old when ER came out and like, I don’t know, like they were like, that was the number one show on television Jeff: Totally. And I mean, Clooney, come on. I know Clooney. Christina: course Clooney, but, but like, but it was Clooney. It was, but but like the, the, the, the, the original, it was Clooney, it was uh, uh, Sherry Stringfeld, it was um, um, uh, Eric Lesal. It was Juliana Margolis, it was Noah Wiley, and it was Anthony Edwards. So like, Jeff: Oh, my favorite Timber Christina: and I was gonna say ironically going into when er came out, like the, the name was Anthony [00:52:00] Edwards, like, he was like number one on the call sheet, right? Like Clooney I think was like four. Um, and, and then, and then Clooney because he’s a good guy, like blew the fuck up and then still did them a solid and did like a full freaking five years on that show, Jeff: Yeah, which is awesome. Christina: he did not, David, David Caruso, it like David Caruso, who famously like had one, you know, big season of NYPD Blue fucks off to go do a movie career. The movie career implodes, there’s a clause in his contract because A, b, C was so furious about how the way he quit NYPD Blue, that they were like, okay, well you can’t do any television for x number of years. And then his movie career dies and then he has to like come like hat in hand to like CSI Miami. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Well I love the pit and this thing that surprised me is the thing I always stayed away from is like I can handle gore in almost every context except real life. And so like I can do all the gore of the Walking Dead. I can do all the gore of Game of Thrones or something, but like, I was like, I don’t know if I want, [00:53:00] yeah. Gore. I love it. I mean, I love it. ’cause I’m fascinated. I’m just fascinated. I’m like, oh, that’s what it looks like when you do that. Like, right. Like you just snip the fingertip off. That’s what it looks like when you do that. Like, Christina: no, Jeff: the first Christina: they show some of the stuff, Jeff: yeah, the first half. I did this every time I covered my face whenever it was like that. And then all of a sudden I could handle it. And I was like, this is fascinating. This is totally Christina: What episode are you, are you up to? How many do you Jeff: I actually, I only have 15 left. I have the last episode left. Um, and unfortunately, like we’ve had, like my brother’s, not unfortunately, my brother’s been, we had stuff every night until late for like three or four days. And I’m so ready to watch that thing. And now, now my wife’s going outta town, so I’m not sure we’ll even see it for another week. It’s making me crazy. Brett: are you watching it together? And you have to wait for her. Jeff: Yeah. Well, and we, and, and sometimes it’s easy for us to find a show together and sometimes there’s just a long dry spell. And so it’s also just like nice. It’s just nice to have a show together always. Um, and so it’s the combination of like, that’s just nice to do and I’m right at the end and I’m just ready to Christina: And you just wanna do that together? [00:54:00] Yeah, no, it makes sense. Season Two and Other Shows Christina: Um, I, I’m, I’m curious to see what you’ll think of season two. Um, I, I, um, it’s, it’s different in some ways. It doesn’t have like the, the, I’m not spoiling anything, but like, it doesn’t have like a big like, catalyzing event, like, like season one does. Um, but I still think it’s, it’s really good TV and, uh, yeah, definitely one of my favorite shows, um, hacks is Back for its final season. That’s definitely one of my favorite Brett: That Jeff: I never Brett: good. I, I finished season one. Um, I think there’s three seasons or is there more? Christina: This, it is now in its fifth season. Yeah. Brett: Okay. Yeah. I, I finished season one and then kind of forgot about it, and then I just saw some trailers for the new season and thought, oh, I should get back into this. It looks, it looks like it, it, it looks like it did well, um, Christina: No, I mean, shrinking. Yeah. Brett: I was gonna say, the new season of shrinking is really good too. Christina: Yeah, it is. Yeah. Um, well, well, uh, bill Lawrence is, is, uh, who created that and he created Scrubs and Spin City and [00:55:00] some other things. Like he’s, he’s really, really, um, good. He also did Rooster, which is now on HBO Max. Um, but, oh, the Scrubs Revival. Speaking of, of new shows, I don’t know if it’s gonna get like renewed because it hasn’t been renewed yet. And so I’m a little bit concerned that it hasn’t been renewed yet, and I only did nine episodes for the first season. But the, the Scrubs reboot, revival, whatever you wanna call it, and I say this is somebody who was a huge scrub fan. I, I don’t consider the, the final season to be scrubs like that. It is not part of Canon to me. Like, I feel like that, that, that wasn’t it, but I thought they actually did an amazing job, um, with the, with the reboot. Like I actually. And, and it was hard for them too because John c McGinley is on Rooster and, um, uh, Judy Reyes is on, um, uh, high Potential. And, um, so, you know, the only like, you know, main characters from the original that they have back in every single episode [00:56:00] are, um, uh, Elliot, JD and Turk. Um, but, uh, and then, and then you see, you know, kind of like, like Carla just isn’t in the office sometimes, but she has some guest appearances. Um, but they actually managed to, to do this, they managed to do like a next generation type of story, but still focused on like the main characters you love, but still kind of bring in like new younger doctors in like a way that I’m genuinely really impressed with how they did it. And, and like it kept the heart and kind of the, the feel of the original, like I, it, it was, I was very, very impressed that they were able to recapture. What made that show so good, um, for, its, I guess they’re calling it its 10th season, but, um, I, I really hope that it comes back because that’s a really good show. Brett: Speaking of reboots, um, they’re rebooting, um, Malcolm in the middle, Jeff: I Christina: Yes, they did. [00:57:00] Yeah. They did a four episode thing. Brett: but what I saw an, I saw Hot ones versus with, um, uh, Frankie Muni and whatever. How Christina: Yeah. Brian Cranston. Who, Brian Cranston. Who, who was, who was the, the father of, of, of Mel King on the pit. Brett: Oh, there you go. Jeff: is so cool. I love her so much. Brett: but anyway, they’re talking about why Dewey wouldn’t come back and basically he was like, I haven’t acted since I was nine. He’s like, he is busy. He is got a life Christina: He’s in grad school, like he went to Harvard and stuff like, like, he’s like, uh, I, which I, I love. And I’m like, okay. You know, I mean, I would’ve loved to see Joey too, but I don’t blame him for being like, no. Brett: Yeah. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Brett: neither, neither did the other actors, I don’t think. I think, uh, it, it wasn’t necessary to Christina: no, I was gonna say he wasn’t because Brett: the Yeah, Christina: mean, look, they were able to do Fuller House without the Olson [00:58:00] twins who were a much bigger part of that show Jeff: Fuller Christina: ever was. And, and I, I, I’m not even like defending Fuller house. Like it was, it was fine. It was whatever. But like, even that, you were like, there were enough characters where you’re like, okay, so, so Michelle isn’t here. And that would’ve been weird, to be honest. I don’t think that, like I know that everybody would’ve loved having the cameo, but it’s like, how in the hell are you gonna have the Olson twins, like as adults, even in a cameo on Fuller House without just completely taking you out of the whole thing. You know what I mean? Brett: Yeah. Christina: Like, it just, it just wouldn’t be possible. But Gratitude App Picks Brett: we try to fit in a gude before Jeff: Should we grab, Christina: yeah. Let’s do a gratitude. Brett: Um, I can kick it off. I got one I’m excited about. Um, found this app called Bezel. Um, I needed to do iOS screenshots and I needed to do iOS recordings, and I played around with using Screen flow and screen Studio and Camtasia, and I didn’t like [00:59:00] any of the ways that they recorded iOS movies. And then I found Bezel and I mean, c So screen recording built into iOS, in my opinion, is better than any of the like screen casting apps can do. Um, but bezel, if you, if you hard co hardwire your phone to your computer and turn on screen, mirroring it can record. Perfect. Um. iOS recordings, and it’s really good at just taking screenshots with a single key key command. You get a screenshot with a bezel like the outline of the phone and a desktop background behind it. So I can just hit command S as I like, move through my phone, uh, and then my right hand on my phone, my left hand on my keyboard, and I can get a dozen iOS screenshots in five minutes, and they’re ready to go, like ready to [01:00:00] publish. It’s really nice. Jeff: That’s really awesome. I’m gonna try that. Christina: Same, same. Do you have one Brett, or do you want me to, or uh, Jeff do or do you want me to go. AI Tools and Claude Code Jeff: Uh, I’m happy to go. Um, so this is, this is, uh, an easy one in a way, but I, I wanna be specific about what’s been so useful. So I’ve been using cloud code and vs code forever. I mean for the last, I’d say two or three months. ’cause I’ve got really, really deep into using cloud code actually for qualitative work. Um, but also a totally bananas project I built that has both a. Physical component and a heavy duty code component, which I’ll talk about sometime. Um, but, um, I, and I’ve used the desktop app for cowork and for like just the standard chat and I’ve loved that, but I never used it for cloud code until this latest update, which added like a really amazing interface for cloud code. Um, which is kind of my gratitude is that tab of the desktop app, which like, when you open it up, it gives you like just an awesome little like, work summary of like comedy sessions [01:01:00] you’ve had, how many total tokens you’ve used, like overall the last 30 days, the last seven days, what your peak hour is your longest streak. It has the like GitHub, like little chart that fills in. Um, and, uh, and, and that’s like been really cool to see. Um, and you can also see your usage of various models. It’s just a nice little thing that pops up. And then when you’re actually working, it’s really amazing because you can pull up these sidebars that have like diffs or like a preview or you can just get a terminal open in there. Um, and I have. I have loved that. I still like feel more at home in the VS.

In this first part of a two-part series, Jeff and Luca explore how different types of service-oriented engineering organizations should focus their learning and improvement efforts. Drawing from their consulting experience, they examine three distinct categories: product development firms that turn client ideas into reality, engineering development firms that sell specialized technical expertise, and solo engineers who package all necessary knowledge into one person.The core insight: what you should focus on learning depends entirely on what you're actually selling. Product development firms need to master the entire client journey and product design process, not just engineering excellence. Engineering development firms must become technical wizards in a specific domain that clients actually value. Solo engineers face the challenge of needing deep expertise while wearing every business hat. Across all three types, the common traps are the same: focusing too much on craft and too little on client experience, failing to specialize, and not investing enough in teaching as marketing.Throughout the discussion, Jeff and Luca emphasize that for service firms, you are the product - and that changes everything about where you should direct your improvement efforts. The conversation is grounded in real experiences, including some cautionary tales about firms that tried to be everything to everyone.Key Topics[00:00] Introduction: Two-part series on engineering organizations and their different focuses[02:30] Overview of the framework: Service firms vs. product-building companies[05:15] Product development firms: Why engineering excellence isn't enough[08:45] The critical importance of product design and client guidance over pure engineering[12:20] Process-level learning: Shortening cycle times and enabling rapid prototyping[15:40] The Irinos example: In-house board manufacturing to tighten feedback loops[18:30] Requirements will always change - designing for learning, not perfection[21:00] The danger of being a generalist: Why specialization matters for service firms[24:15] Engineering development firms: Selling technical expertise, not complete products[27:45] Technology-focused learning: Going deep on specific technical capabilities[30:20] The trap of becoming a commodity: Why domain expertise beats technology alone[33:40] The forklift invoice review example: You can't specialize too narrowly[35:30] Solo engineers: The complete package vs. temporary employee trap[39:00] Common failures across all service firms: Too much craft focus, too little client experience and marketing[41:30] Teaching as the best form of marketing for technical service firmsNotable Quotes"The customers don't actually hire them for their engineering skills. They are sort of a given. But what such a product development firm should offer the client is guiding them through the development process, which they don't have enough skills for to do it on their own." — Luca"Engineering is not the point. The unit of work is delivering a working product to the client that satisfies their business case, that has a reasonable cost to manufacture, and that you feel confident your own client has validated their market." — Jeff"It's not that engineering is irrelevant, but rather that it's table stakes. This is just taken for granted, but what such a product development firm should offer is guiding them through the development process." — Luca"You almost can't be narrow enough. I remember our friend Philip Morgan having this example of a company that specializes in reviewing invoices of forklift repairs. This is what they do. They review forklift repair invoices. And they're doing very well apparently." — Luca"Teaching and giving information and solving problems publicly is the best form of marketing. It's not advertising. It's building trust with an audience." — JeffResources MentionedIDEO - Prototypical design firm mentioned as an example of companies specializing in product designIRNAS - Product development firm with in-house board manufacturing capabilities, featured in previous episodes, exemplifying tight feedback loopsPhilip Morgan - Consultant and friend mentioned for his example about specialization (forklift invoice review company)Jeff Gable's website - Jeff's consulting services for medical device software development and advisoryLuca Ingianni's website - Luca's training products and resources for embedded systems, IoT, and AIConnect With UsStay tuned for Part 2, where we'll explore organizations that build products and what they should focus on when the market decidesIf you're in the medical device industry and need help with embedded software - either writing it or navigating the regulatory landscape - reach out to Jeff at jeffgable.comCheck out Luca's training products for embedded systems, IoT, and AI at luca.engineerReflect on your own organization: Are you focusing on the right things for the type of service firm you are? Are you specializing enough? You can find Jeff at https://jeffgable.com.You can find Luca at https://luca.engineer.Want to join the agile Embedded Slack? Click hereAre you looking for embedded-focused trainings? Head to https://agileembedded.academy/Ryan Torvik and Luca have started the Embedded AI podcast, check it out at https://embeddedaipodcast.com/

Christina and Jeff kick off the new year of Overtired sans Brett. They delve into Christina's impending cervical spine surgery, ICE raids, and neighborhood signal groups. How do you keep mental health in check when Homeland Security is in your alley? Tune in for a wild start to 2026. Sponsor Copilot Money can help you take control of your finances. Get a fresh start with your money for 2026 with 26% off when you visit try.copilot.money/overtired and use code OVERTIRED. Chapters 00:00 New Year Kickoff 00:41 Personal Updates and Health Challenges 01:49 Surgery Details and Insurance Woes 04:45 Exploring Surgery Options and Recovery 12:44 Journaling and Mental Health 15:40 The Artist’s Way and Creative Practices 24:31 Unexpected Alley Incident 38:10 Family Activism and Signal Setup 38:52 Unexpected End of Year Incident 39:35 Speculations and Concerns 40:13 Dealing with Law Enforcement 45:35 Reflections on Responsibility 54:43 Gratitude for Signal 59:31 Tech Talk: Synology and Backup Solutions 01:03:08 Mac Updater Alternatives 01:10:03 Conclusion and Well Wishes Show Links Journaling – The Artist's Way Signal Synology Updatest Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Transcript Promise Not to Whine [00:00:00] New Year Kickoff Christina: Well, happy New Year. You are listening to Overtired and I am Christina Warren, and I’m joined as always by Jeff Severance Zel and, uh, Brett Terpstra couldn’t be, uh, here with us in this, uh, happy early 2026 episode, but I’m, I’m super excited to be able to kick off the, uh, the first pot of the year with you, Jeff, how are you? Jeff: I am good. Happy New Year to you. Christina: Likewise, likewise. Um, oh, here, here, here’s to 2026 being significantly better than 20, 25. So Jeff: So far, not so good, but I’m, I’m really, I’m really excited about 2026. I’m Christina: I was gonna say, like, like globally, globally, so far not great, but, but, Jeff: in here. Good in here. Personal Updates and Health Challenges Christina: So, um, so how are, uh, uh, how, how, how is the, I guess a, I guess we can kind of a drill into like a, a brief kind of mental health or, or just personal update thing if we want. Um, how, um. How are things for you so far? Um, I guess the end of the year. How are things with the kids? Um, the [00:01:00] wife, everything. Jeff: the, how the year ended is, and that gets us back to almost a political level. I will save for a topic ’cause boy do I have a story. Um, but, uh, generally speaking, doing really well. Like we traveled, saw my dad and stepmom in Iowa. Saw my in-laws in Indiana, had a really nice, just like generally had a really nice time off. Um, and despite the fact that I’m under a super stressful deadline over the next few days, I feel good. How about you? You got a lot going on. Christina: I, I do, I do. So I guess just kind of a, a, an, an update on, um, the, uh, the Christina, you know, cervical spine, um, saga since we last spoke a couple of weeks ago. Um, I guess maybe two weeks ago now. Um, uh, it was maybe a week ago. Um, uh, it was two weeks ago, I think. Sorry, it was, it was right before Christmas. Surgery Details and Insurance Woes Christina: Um, I was still awaiting, um, hearing back about when I would be scheduled for, uh, surgery and I’m getting, um, uh, artificial disc replacement in, um, I guess [00:02:00] between like C six, C seven of my cervical spine. And I do finally have a surgery date. Yay. Um, the bad, yeah, the bad news is it’s not until February 2nd, so I’ve gotta wait, you know, a month, which sucks. Um, I would have been able to get in, you know, uh, three weeks ago at this point. Um, had I been able to like, I guess like book immediately, but without insurance, like approval, um, I didn’t really want to do that. Um, I think, I think people, uh, can understand why, like, you know, when the doctor’s like, well, we can book you now, but you’ll just need to sign some forms that say you’ll be responsible for the bill if insurance doesn’t pay. Jeff: Oh fine. Get Where’s my pen? Christina: right, right. And I’m like, yeah, this is, you’re gonna keep me overnight just for, you know, observation to make sure like nothing bleeds or, or, or whatever’s a problem. Um, ’cause they’re gonna go through like the, the, the front of my, of my neck to, to be able to reach, you know, um, things that way and, and, and so, [00:03:00] you know, and be under, you know, anesthesia, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s not like a huge critical procedure, but it’s still neurosurgery. Jeff: is through the front of your neck. Christina: and, and, and, and, and, and again, and it’s a neurosurgeon and it’s like, you know, they’re gonna, you know, take some stuff out and try to make sure that like, you know, very, like they’re gonna be, you know, um, screwing up against my trachea and stuff. And like, yeah. I mean, like, you know, it’s, it’s not, it’s not minor. It’s not like I can just go in in an afternoon and be like, oh, I’m, I’m, I can just like walk out. Jeff: Right. Christina: Um, um, although apparently I will feel better, uh, as soon as it happens, but yeah, I mean, this is probably gonna be a six figure, you know, operation, I’m assuming so. No, I, I, I’m sorry. In, in this climate, uh, I don’t feel comfortable. Just, I need my name to be like, oh, yeah, I’ll, I’ll be responsible for that, and then be responsible for trying to track everyone down to, to pay. So that’s the frustrating thing is that, and now of course, you know, you, you get the beginning of the year, a bunch of people have been waiting, you know, to get, you know, things scheduled, I’m sure, and [00:04:00] whatnot. So I’m grateful that I’m scheduled at all. Um, I’m also grateful that right now I’m not insignificant pain, which is a really good thing because if this had been the pain level that I was in for the first few weeks, then like, I wouldn’t, I, you know, I mean, I would wait. I mean, if, if, if you have to wait, you have to wait. But, um, I, I, I might have like pressed upon them like. Is there any way we can move this up? Um, but I’m not in that position, which is good. The only thing is just that the numbness, um, on both arms. But, but, but primarily, yeah. No, I mean, that’s not gone away and, and it’s, and it’s not going to is the thing, right? Like there are a lot of people and like, and I, I’ve started now that I’ve got, got it like actually like done and like scheduled and you know, I’m going through all like the, you know, um, checklist stuff before you, you go in and whatnot. And I have like my, you know, pre-up appointments and all that stuff scheduled. Exploring Surgery Options and Recovery Christina: Um, I am starting to, to look more into, I guess like, you know, I guess recovery videos that people have put up on YouTube and, and reading a few things on Reddit. Although I’m doing my best to, to stay off the internet with [00:05:00] this stuff as much as possible. Um, just because for me it’s, it’s not beneficial, right? Like, it, it’s, it’s one thing if you know, um, you, uh, you don’t like. If, if you can separate and not kind of go down rabbit holes and like freak yourself out or whatever, sure. Maybe it can be good information, but for me, like I, I know my own kind of, you know, limits in terms of, of how much is good for me. And so I’ve, I’ve tried to keep that in moderation, but I have watched a few, you know, videos of people, you know, kind of talking about their experiences. And then of course then that gets used sent with like videos of like doctors who of course, for their own reasons, like are trying to promote like, oh, well you should do the, the, the fusion versus the, the, the disc replacement and, or you should do this versus that. And I’m like, okay. I actually watched one interesting talk that, that some guy gave it a medical conference and neurologist gave it a medical conference and it was a neurosurgeon, I guess is, is the proper term. But that I think kind of really distinctly a, it was very similar to. Exactly what my surgeon said to me, [00:06:00] um, when he was kind of explaining the differences in the procedures. Um, and, and b but kind of went into, I guess like the, the difference in terms of outcomes and, um, and it made me feel better about like that if I’m a good candidate for this procedure, that, that this is, um, the right thing to, to do and probably will be better for me long term. Um, because the, the results are, are better and, but not by a small portion, not like by like a, a gargantuan portion. But they are, they are, there is like a sizable difference between outcomes in terms of whether like the average person who needs a revision, um. For, you know, cervical spine versus getting, you know, disc replacement versus, um, uh, fusion. Fusion has been around a lot longer, and so insurance companies are a lot more likely to approve that. But in Europe, they’ve been doing the, the disc replacement stuff for 25, 30 years. Um, and so there is a lot of data on it, but it’s been a much more recent thing in the United States because insurance companies didn’t really start to do it until about five or 10 years ago. And so, and so, you know, some people will, [00:07:00] like some doctors who very clearly have an agenda on, on YouTube and like, that’s fine, like your practices, your practice and you’re comfortable with what you’re comfortable with. But they’ll be like, oh, we don’t have enough data on, you know, the types of, um, you know, discs that we’re putting in people’s, you know, necks and, and how, how long they, you know, last and, and there might be some differences in terms of if you’re doing like a multi-step, meaning you’re doing like multiple discs at once. Or if, you know, depending on like what, what, what part of the spine you’re in. And like, I, I think at this point for, for artificial disc replacement in the US they’ll do it two steps. So they can do two at once, but they won’t typically do three, although they will do three in Europe. And so there are people who will go to Europe and get the three Jeff: They’re so liberal in Europe. We’ll do three. Christina: Well, I mean, I think it’s a difference in, in that case, just a matter of like, if they’ve been doing the surgeries there longer, you know, then, then they, you know, and, and, and you know, and, and this is not uncommon in, in various forms of, of medicine, you know, where like you have different, you know, procedures and different exploratory things in different fields, in different areas.[00:08:00] So anyway, so then I get kind of trapped into those rabbit holes. But the interesting, the night, the, the, I guess comforting thing is that like, you know, I’ve been reading, you know, around reading, but watching people who were doing vlogs, like after their surgery and like there was this guy who. I was a few years younger than me, but he, you know, posted some updates. I, I guess he got his in July and he kind of did like, you know, updates, you know, kind of like, you know, this was me right after surgery. This was me, you know, three weeks later. This was me however many months later. And that was really great to see. Um, and, and his, his scar actually healed really nicely, which was encouraging. So, um, yeah, I mean, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m hopeful. I mean, the one thing that’s interesting that, like almost the universal thing that people say, of course you have a few people who say, this didn’t help or, or, you know, this, this was bad or whatever. And, and obviously like that’s always terrible to see that, but you know, you’d have to kind of like go by law of averages. But the, one of the central kind of things is a lot of people being like, I should have done this earlier. And, and so I’m feeling good about that because that is, I, I, I, I don’t know what this says about me, [00:09:00] but like there’s was never a moment in my mind where I’ve been like, oh, I’m not gonna get the surgery as soon as I can get the surgery. That’s never even been part of my like, thought process. And, and, and, and, and it’s funny because I think that like, that is actually odd compared to almost everybody else. Um, the general public, I guess, who goes into these sorts of things. Um, or at least the people who are vocal on the internet, right? So, so maybe like, maybe there are a lot more people like me who just don’t go to forums and comment on stuff and are just like, yeah, I’m gonna get the surgery because that’s what the doctor says. There’s the right thing to do, and that’s what makes sense to me and I wanna, you know, not be in pain and I wanna be able to feel my arm and all that stuff. Um, but there are a lot of people who, I don’t know why, um, I mean, I guess the idea of surgery is, is really scary. And, and like, I can, I can understand that obviously, but to the point where they’re like, okay, well no, I’m gonna try physical therapy and I’m gonna do everything I can to avoid surgical intervention. And I’m, I’m like, no. Like, like [00:10:00] freaking cut me up, doc. Right? Like, like, like, get me in, get me in. Like, let’s get better, right? Like, I, I’m not, I’m not here to like fuck around with like, ’cause right now, because the immediate pain is not there, I could be okay. Right? Like, I Jeff: Sure. Christina: try steroids, I could try pt, I could try to do other types of therapies and be like, well, maybe that will move the nerve around. Or maybe it can get the disc like UN you know, bolt, whatever the case may be. And maybe I won’t need surgery. Um, or I could let this go on longer and continue to be weakness, you know, and, and, and in, you know, it’s not like I’m not in, I’m, I’m not in active pain, but it’s not, not painful at certain times. Not worrying about is this just going to become like a permanent way that I feel, which would be. Awful. Um, and, you know, and, and, and like, it’s not the most debil debilitating thing, like I said. Um, if, if I was in a position where I, I couldn’t get surgery, obviously I could be okay right now, but you never know. Also, like, when is it going to, to swap again? Right? [00:11:00] Like, and, and, and, and for me, I’m also, I’m like, I, I don’t wanna have to like, live in fear of doing something, you know, to my arm or my neck or, or whatever, and, you know, making things worse. So, Jeff: right. Oh, I’m glad you’re doing it. Christina: yeah, me too. So anyway, that was a long-winded update, but Wow. Jeff: Yeah, that’s intense. So I’m really glad the pain is not what it was ’cause Holy shit. Christina: Yeah, the pain was, was really, really bad. And I, like, I look back now and it’s, you know, I, I guess ’cause it’s been a couple of weeks since it’s been really debilitating and it is, and again, I don’t know like that this is me or this is like just somebody else, but I, or this is me or this is the comment with other people. Sorry. Um, is that. Like when I’m not in pain anymore. It is such, so much like, I mean, depression is like this too. It’s so much like a vacuum. It’s like when you’re in it, that’s all you can see. But when you’re out of it, like it’s so easy to forget what it was like Jeff: Yeah, yeah, totally. Completely. Christina: totally completely right. Yeah. Jeff: Yeah. I can even imagine being in the [00:12:00] situation you’re describing, knowing I have a surgery coming up and being like, well, do I want to? Which, like, to your point now, you make that call and you’re worrying forever. Am I gonna wake up? And this thing’s there. Next time it happens, I gotta wait another God knows how long before the surgery, when I’ll know it’s time. Like, you know it’s time now. Get in there. Christina: No, totally, totally. And and that’s the thing. And I think sometimes it can be. Like I said, like when you’re not in the thick of, of it, whether it’s like, you know, feeling depressed or feeling overwhelmed or, or stressed or, or in physical pain or whatever, like it’s easy for to forget like what that can be like. And so I have to just kind of like remind myself like, no, this was really fucking bad. And yeah, you got through it and now you’re on the other side of it. And so you’re like, oh, okay, well, you know, I, I, I could, you know, do whatever, but you’re like, don’t, don’t forget what that was like. Right. Journaling and Mental Health Christina: Um, sometimes I think like, and, and I, and I’m bad at remembering to do this, but new thing for the new year, I guess is why, um, it is important I think to like write things down, right. Like however we’re feeling, whether it’s, you know, good, bad, whatever. [00:13:00] Sometimes, like for me, like it is Jeff: Just like journal you mean, right? Christina: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Be, because it can be useful just to like look back and like, if you’re in a darker spot to remember, hey, there were times when I felt this way. Right. Might not bring, bring me back to that place. But it’s a good reminder. But also I think almost just, it’s importantly, it’s, it’s, it’s the inverse where it’s like you need to remember when you’re in a good place. What it can be like to be in a worse place. Um, because, you know, I think that’s why sometimes people make decisions they make about what medicines they’re going to take or not take or what therapies they’re going to continue or not continue. And, um, and it’s, and it’s really easy to get into that, you know, cycle of, okay, well I’m fine now, um, because you’re removed enough from what it felt like to be bad, you know? And, and then, and, and, and also I think sometimes like, uh, and this is why I wish that I’ve been journaling more over the last few years. You can really get yourself into a deep depression and not realize it. Jeff: Yes, yes. Yeah. And I feel like journaling too, just like helps you internalize some of the flags and [00:14:00] warning signs, even if you’re never looking back, like, ’cause you’re gonna process them a little bit. Christina: yeah, yeah. Jeff: can’t, I, I’ve journaled over the years for stints of time. I can’t go back into them. I almost like, I almost like bounce off the page when I try. Um, but I really have come to believe that just the act of doing it is the thing. Christina: agree. Jeff: Yeah, Christina: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I, I usually don’t re reread my old stuff either, and I haven’t journaled regularly in a really, really long time, and I actually would like to get back into that again. I think it would be better for my overall health, but similar to you, it’s one of those things I wouldn’t necessarily revisit, Jeff: But now, you know, you have a document, you have a reason to go back into it. Christina: right. Well, but, but also, I mean, I think to your point, just the act of doing it, um, you know, and this is case, we’re both writers. I think this is the, the case for a lot of, of people who, who write like it, it is one of those things that like, that’s what will almost like cement it in my mind. You know what I mean? Like, as, as, as mattering [00:15:00] like, like even if it’s something innocuous, even if I don’t remember the small details of just that, that the fact that like, I’ve done it, like, like to your point, helps you kind of process things and kind of, you know, act more as kind of a therapeutic place. Jeff: Yeah, I don’t, when I’m writing like that, or just in general, I don’t feel like I’m writing from my brain or feel like I’m writing on my brain. Christina: Yeah, yeah. Jeff: It’s like I am actually putting the information in, not drawing it out weirdly. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I know, I, I, I, I love that actually, I’ve never thought of it before. Writing on my brain. I love that. That’s really, that, I think that’s really profound. Jeff: Yeah. So there’s, um, there’s a kind of journaling that I wish I, I, well, I don’t beat myself up at all to be clear about this ’cause that I’m too old to do that anymore. The Artist’s Way and Creative Practices Jeff: Um, but there’s this book I read back in. Oh God, 2019 99 called The Artist’s Way by this woman Julie Cameron. And I don’t remember much about this book except for, and I probably have talked about it on this podcast [00:16:00] years ago at this point, but she has this practice, she calls morning Pages. And the idea is you sit down first thing in the morning, you fill three pages, you don’t think about what you’re writing or why you just keep the pen moving. And, and I, what I have found, that’s the only kind of real regular journaling I’ve ever done. It’s a great, great hack for me. ’cause it, it, I can do that. And I fill, I’ll fill a, you know, big notebook and I have a box full of them from over the years. ’cause again, I’m old. Um, but what is, I have never, I don’t think there’s been a single day that I’ve done those morning pages when I haven’t been a little surprised and something hasn’t emerged that. I’m like, I’ll think to myself, well shit, if I hadn’t have done this, where would that have stayed and lived and, and lodged itself. Right. Like, um, so anyway, I I’m glad you are bringing this up ’cause it’s reminding me of that and New Year is a great time to be thinking about that. Christina: Totally, totally. No, I love that. And I, yeah, I, I found the book The Artist’s Way, a Spiritual Path to Higher [00:17:00] Creativity. Jeff: Yes, Christina: and it’s like this yellow gold book, but like, apparently, and then like they, they, they, they, they sell Morning pages Journal, a Jeff: they do, of course. I Christina: Yeah. Yeah, of course. Jeff: it probably took her two decades to realize she should be cashing in on that, but she did. Christina: No, honestly, so the book, it looks like it was published the first one in 92, Jeff: Yeah. Christina: then they were selling the companion volume to the Artist’s Way as December 29th, 1997. Um, so, so like Jeff: that you’re doing this history. This is delightful. Christina: I, well, I just looked at Amazon is just kind of filling this out for me, so I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, so at least it is possible that, that the, the book pages might have been even earlier than that, but like, good for her on like, recognizing there’s also a Artist’s Way workbook, um, now that was like a decade later, like 2006. Jeff: Yeah, that’s what I, maybe that’s what I’m thinking of. That came much later. Christina: Yeah, yeah. But, but it does seem like she got into that, like a David Allen kind of, you know, like, you know, whatever steps of highly, you know what I mean? Like, like all that kind of like stuff, [00:18:00] which Jeff: You’re letting the publisher have those meetings with you. Christina: Which honestly look good for you if you’re selling that many and whatnot. And, and if you come up with this journaling way, yes, sell the freaking paper. You should be selling PDF copies so that people can have it on their iPads now, like, you know, Jeff: Yeah. Christina: or, or, or on the remarkable tablets or whatever. Jeff: she had another thing actually I haven’t thought about in a long time. It wasn’t as useful to me long term. It helped me in the moment I. In the moment I was in, she called ’em artist dates and the idea was like, ’cause as you said in the title, it’s all about creativity. She was like, you, you take yourself out, go to a, whatever it is, a museum, a art supply shop, something like that. But with intention, like, I am going out to do this thing on my own alone because I know that it has some connection to what feels good to me about art and creativity and expression, whatever it was. That seems like a silly thing. Like it’s basically her saying, go to a museum. There was something about calling it an artist date. I think I was in a relationship too at the time where I was like not, it was not easy for me to [00:19:00] just go do something on my own. It was just a weird dynamic a little bit. So anyway, that was another good thing that came out of it. I mean, I, you don’t really have to work hard to tell me to go do something on my own, but at that time in my life you did. Yeah, she was great. That’s awesome. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. No, that is funny. Yeah. So yeah, so apparently that book was published in, in 1992 and, um, you know, uh, was immediately like, well, the first printing was about 9,000 copies. In 1992, the book was published by Jeremy Tarcher. Now part of Pink Wing Group revised and millions of copies have since been sold millions. Jeff: it was total like guru status by the Christina: Oh yeah, absolutely. No, absolutely. You know, and, and in a, yeah, she, she was, uh, she’s a, she was born in 1948, and so, uh, she’s still alive. She’s still kicking it. Um, Jeff: yeah. I think she made some new book that was like kind of a take on it, but it was a different, I don’t remember. Anyway. You’re the Christina: Yeah, no, no. Her, her list of like, of like books that she’s published is, she’s the, the most recent one. So she’s still doing the, the, the [00:20:00] writer’s way thing, living the, the artist’s way. An intuitive path to greater creativity. So I guess they did a 2024 version Write for Life, a toolkit for Writers Seeking wisdom, A spiritual Path to Creative Connection. Six week artist program. Jeff: it’s kind of like David Allen, where it’s like, wouldn’t it be nice to have created something when you were, whatever, reasonably younger, like 20, 30 years ago, that not only that you can ride for a long time, but you probably don’t feel bad about riding it for a long time. Right? Like, ’cause you can create things or have a band or something like that, that like your only choice is to ride that thing, but it gets pretty ugly. I see you Vince Neil. Um, but yeah, anyway, must be Christina: No, it ha it has to be nice, right? ’cause it’s like, okay, well no, and, and then it has all these little spinoff things, so it’s not like you have to feel like, I mean, although th this actually, this would, this would be an interesting idea for like a, a, a novel or a screenplay or something, which would be to be like, okay, you know, and people have have done like riffs on these things before on, on, you know, shows or whatever. But, so this would be an interesting story, I think to kind of focus on where it’s like you have somebody who is like, just famous for like, this, this one thing that they did, [00:21:00] and now their whole life has to revolve around it. But what if it was like, something that they didn’t like actually, like, believe in? Jeff: yes, Christina: what if you have the guru? What if you have the guru who’s like, actually is like, actually I don’t really, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m David Allen, but I, but I can’t actually get anything done. I have to have like a whole, you know, cadre of assistance to actually organize my, my, my, my calendar and my life. For me, you know, I don’t Jeff: Carol and Pluribus, I don’t know if you’re watching Pluribus, but that Yes. Her, her whole like book series. Clearly she was at a point where she’s like, yes, I should still ride this, but I cannot. That’s all right. Things changed for her. Um, okay. I have to tell you about something insane that happened to me at the end of 25. Christina: Okay. Alright. Before, before we do that, let me let Ru first, um, let’s, uh, let’s, let’s go ahead and, and get our, our sponsor read Jeff: Oh, way to remember the sponsor. We remember you sponsor. Christina: We, we, we do. So, um, I, I, I, before we hear about what happened to you at the end of 2025, let’s, uh, let’s go ahead and talk, uh, forward a little bit about 2026. So, are you [00:22:00] ready to take control of your finances? Well meet copilot money, the personal finance app that makes your money feel clear and calm with the beautiful design and smart automation. Copilot money brings all your spending, saving and investment accounts into one place available on iOS, Mac, iPad, and now on the web. And so, as we are entering 2026, it is time for a fresh start. And, you know, with Mint, uh, shutting down last year and rising financial uncertainty, consumers are seeking clarity and control. And this is where copilot money comes in. So, copilot money. Basically helps you track your budgets, your savings goals, and your net worth seamlessly. And with a new web launch, you can enjoy a sending experience on any device. 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That’s try dot copilot money slash Overtired and use that coupon Overtired and you will, as I said, save 26% off your first year. So try copilot money slash Overtired. Use the coupon code Overtired. Thank you very much. Copilot money. Jeff: Bam. Can you hear my Synology? Christina: No, Jeff: Oh, that’s funny. ’cause I, I get this. Hum. I recently com I, I’ll visit this in GrAPPtitude. I, [00:24:00] uh, I completely clean, installed my Synology after like six years. ’cause when I did. Build it. Initially, I actually didn’t really understand how to use it, and I, and I made some mistakes that because of all the stuff I put on, it was hard to sort of, I was treating it like it was gonna be an external drive and I could just kind of work with, you know, which was a huge mistake. Um, but anyway, I, it’s working so hard. It’s working so hard and it’s on my desk, which it normally wouldn’t be. So I hear this humming. Didn’t know if you heard it. Christina: I, I did not, I did not, which is a good thing. So, okay, so, all right. Uh, let, let’s, let’s go back. So what, what, yeah, I’m ready. I need to hear what happened to you at the end of 2025. All right. Unexpected Alley Incident Jeff: All right, so, um, my boys are out. They’re almost never out, but they’re both out with friends, different places. My wife and I we’re home and we were eating dinner and I got an alert from my back door ring camera, and. That almost never happens. It’s only exists to, to notify me of like alley shoppers. We’re in, in the city. We have an alley behind us and, and we get a fair amount of pretty [00:25:00] harmless alley shopping. Like it’s, is the car unlocked? If it is, you got some change. If not, I’m moving on. Um, but I like to know when they’re there. Christina: yeah, Jeff: We’ve had some bikes stolen and some people go into our garage and stuff like that. It’s very rare that it goes off less than I actually thought it would. Um, and so it goes off and it goes off at around 7:00 PM very unusual. And, uh, and so I, I, I pull it up and I look and, and I, all I can see is there’s two cars parked in the alley. I have this weird view where, um, it’s kind of a fence and then our garage. So I can see between those two things to the alley basically. So there’s two cars. That’s weird actually. And when I see some of people’s like videos about folks breaking into their cars, there’s often two that come. And so I was like, oh, okay, well it’s, I should just like go out and look. So we go and we kind of look at our, at our back window to see if we can see anything. And we’re just like, yeah, it’s weird. They’re not only parked but the headlights are off. And like, I’m gonna go out and check it out. She’s like, well first, why don’t you look at the video it recorded, which I wasn’t thinking of at all. So I pull up the video, it recorded, and I see these [00:26:00] cars park, but it’s like three or four of them come through the two that I can see park. And all of a sudden there are probably seven or eight figures running down the alley from these cars. Okay? And I’m like, well, that’s crazy. And so I walk out there and I go up to the first car and it’s got Texas plates. And around here where we have a little bit of an ice invasion, Texas plates are reported a lot. I look at the next car and it’s got no plates at all. And I look at the car after that and it’s got vanity plates, specifically chosen one with a Z. Um, and, and I’m like, oh my God. It’s the thing like ice is in my alley. And, uh, and so I come back in, I I’m like, you tell my wife, like, should probably get your coat on. I think it’s the thing is what I said. And, and we go out and sure enough, like at the end of our alley where there is a family and, and they are, um, US citizens, they’re Mexican immigrants, um, that’s where I see all these officers sort of, or these agents sort of coalescing and um, I’m gonna leave some aspects of this out. They were [00:27:00] actually, they were serving, uh, uh, narcotics warrant that ended up being totally misguided. Nothing happened of it. Um, but it was super scary. But I kind of don’t wanna say more than that because I wanna be really clear that as everyone should know about policing, a search warrant is not an indictment. Um, and oftentimes search warrants are so searching and, and, and often come up with. With nothing. Right? And, and maybe even were targeted at the wrong person. And there’s didn’t even have the name of my neighbor on it. It’s this whole thing. But the point is, it was a little different from what we’ve been hearing because there was a different agency there serving a warrant. It was the airport, airport, police department, ’cause of a package. So there was that piece, there was actually a signed warrant. ’cause everyone’s trained to say, show me the warrant. Show me the warrant. So everyone, you know, my wife and I were the first ones there. Um, and then another neighbor rolled up, and then I’ll get to the rest in a second. Um, so it, it’s shocking that it’s happening in our alley. Christina: in our alley, right? Jeff: just like, Christina: you, yeah. Jeff: what? What the Christina: I, I mean, how [00:28:00] I would feel to a certain extent would be like, I’d be like, am I in Amer in an episode of the Americans? Like, like, you know, Jeff: is, did they have to write it this way? Just ’cause how else are you gonna bring it to the people? You know? It’s, you gotta bring it to the characters. Um, so anyway, we go down there and, and there’s one, so all of the, everyone decides the airport PD guy who has no mask and is kind of like presenting like a pretty normal cop basically. And he is got a badge and a name and a number. But walking in and out of the house, all around us are these guys who are in full battle fatigues. They’ve got masks on, they’ve got ars. Um, they are, they are a weird mix of people. There’s a woman in there who’s like looking like, literally like she was cast for a movie to be, uh, an, an ice person. In this case they were Homeland Security Investigations, HSI. But it’s all intertwined at this point. Um, and then there was a guy that must have been like eight feet. That was crazy. There was a single guy that was wearing a, like a straight up like helmet, uh, for, as if he were going into battle. [00:29:00] Nobody else is wearing a helmet. Um. And none of them were talking. They were just passing through. And, um, and so we tried to engage one of them, talked to them for a little bit, do the thing you do. Hey, why don’t you take that mask off? You know, I don’t wanna get docked. I was like, uh, Christina: around. Jeff: it was like, I both understand why you don’t wanna get docked. I also feel like you’ve got the power here, brother. Um, and which was the conversation we had, um, I was like, you have a mask on. You also have your finger on the trigger of a gun. And he’s like, well, that’s not, it’s not on the trigger. This is how we hold guns, dude. I was like, I understand that, but your finger is itching at the trigger of a gun. And so he put his hands on top of the butt of the gun. ’cause it was kind of, you know, mounted the way it is. Is that better? I was like, no, you’ve still got all the power. Take the mask off. Like, at least. Um, and uh, what, what was really interesting, and I I have this sort of like wrap up that occurred to me later that kind of blew my mind is, you know, in our neighborhood, um, because ice activity has been going on all around our neighborhood, like in. Neighborhoods [00:30:00] surrounding our neighborhood or a little further out, but all within a, I could get in the car and rush out there distance. Basically we have these, we have these neighborhood signal groups. The first one that popped up was actually around my son’s school, which is very close to here and has a lot of East African and Hispanic, um, immigrants and, and, um, and so that we knew that was like, you know, people were scared there. Some kids weren’t coming to school. And so, um, some neighbors organized in such a way that they could a, have a signal, uh, communication channel. But also part of that was planning at the beginning of the day and that release time for enough people to sort of be paired up in areas around the school, but not so close that it freaks the kids out. That like if something happened, there could be sort of a rapid response. So we had that signal group. There’s a broader signal group that probably covers like a four block area, and then there’s a wider one that’s our wider neighborhood basically. And that one’s like a rapid response signal group. So these have been going. Pretty, like consistently [00:31:00] ever since it was announced that we were getting ICE and Homeland Security folks here. Um, so the network was all in place. And, and so I’m out there initially and I see all the cars. I’m like, holy shit. Wife and I go to the end of the block. We start talking to first the airport PD guy who’s there, and then the the one HSI guy who comes out. Then another neighbor, another neighbor. I go back to take pictures of the plates because folks around here are keeping a registry that you can get through the signal group of all of the makes and models of cars that we know have been at these, um, kind of ICE activities or homeland security activities, and then their license plates. And so there’s like a running log, which has happened in other cities too. So I was taking pictures of all the cars. Um, but I was pretty like, I mean, I’ve been through some shit and. Having it in your alley is very different from going halfway across the world as like an activist or something. Um, and having it ha neighbors are people we know and care about. And so knowing that, not knowing what’s happening for them, which I don’t mean to bury that lead [00:32:00] ’cause I’m kind of getting to that part, but I also want to just respect their privacy. Um, so like the thing I should have mentioned at the top is like, we know these folks and it was fucking terrifying to be standing there arguing with these HSI guys knowing that at some point, or just assuming at some point these people we know are gonna be dragged outta the house in front of us. And then it was just like this constant question of what the fuck will we do? Then? It did not happen to be really clear, uh, ahead of time. So I’m taking pictures of these cars, I’m like, oh shit. I’m supposed to notify like the signal group, but I’ve got, I’ve got all the presence I need to take pictures of cars. I’ve got the presence I need to engage these guys, which my wife was doing plenty good job of, so I could just like walk away and do the license plate thing. But when I pulled up my phone. To open signal. I opened Slack three times, like I could not, I got an S into my search, my app search, and like kept clicking the wrong thing. I was shaking. It was also freezing out and so like I’m shaking and so [00:33:00] thank God it occurred to me. I have one friend I know on this signal group that I, I know would answer the phone, so I called her. I called her and I was like, I need to be quick. Here are like the fundamental details. Can you please notify? The signal group and the rapid response people. So that was great. She did initially, the first group that showed up, which was just incredible, were like all of our neighbors, we all know this family. Like it’s not, they are just neighbors. It’s not like it’s a special offset group or something. Like they’re neighbors. So all of the neighbors show up. We have a really tight block. Um, that was incredible because it’s not like it’s a neighbor of activists. It’s what’s been incredible about this stuff from the beginning, which is like how easy it seems to be for people to pop outta their house and be like, Uhuh. Like it seems like, it seems like a lot of people are not feeling inhibited about that, which I think is really cool. And I totally respect the people that feel inhibited, right? Like, ’cause it’s just, it’s a whole thing to go out there. So we had this great group of neighbors and they were all, we had a public school teacher who was just killing it with this one HSI guy. It was so, [00:34:00] so good to watch and it felt really powerful and I think she was doing a really good job of trying to sort of like. Knock some things into this guy’s head knowing that like, you know, you’re in a dynamic that kind of you, there’s not a lot of room for things to change. Right. But given that she, it was really just inspiring watching her do her thing and then the like rapid response community showed up, which is like a mix of, you know, folks who are kind of just dedicated neighbors and then people who are sort of what you might call the usual suspects, right? Like the people you would expect, especially in South Minneapolis to show up at a thing like this. And I don’t know if you’ve heard about the thing people do with whistles around these things. Christina: Yeah. Well, I, I, all I’ve heard is that, and I ha, so all I know is I think sometimes people have whistles and kind of like, like, like blow them, almost like to alert people like that, that like, like the, like the, the, the, that like ice is there. Jeff: Yes, exactly. And that yes, that’s exactly it. And that’s been going on here and, [00:35:00] and everybody’s getting whistle. You know, sometimes when you get a good, it’s, I’m not calling it a bit, ’cause I’ll tell you in a minute why it was effective, um, in ways that I hadn’t anticipated. But, uh, you know, it’s like a, it’s, I can do this, I can get a whistle, I’m gonna get a whistle, right? Like, that’s something I can do. Like, it’s something that really caught on and there’s all these whistles being passed around and people on the neighborhood group being like, got a bag of whistles if you wanna come by. So I, ima imagine at this point that when these HSI or ICE people roll up to a thing before they get out, they’re like T minus 15 minutes to whistles, right? Like, this is how long we have before everyone shows up. And, and so pretty soon it’s whistles everywhere. I had a neighbor who kept putting off her, um. Car alarm just to make more crazy noise. We had another neighbor next to this neighbor who is a very conservative like Trump guy who, when he doesn’t like the noise that’s happening in the neighborhood sets off fireworks. And for some reason he was like, I’m gonna do the thing I do, even though there’s all these guys with guns and I’m gonna set off fireworks. But in that case, ’cause he is pissed off at all of us, like it was so [00:36:00] fucking chaotic for a minute. Um, but it was, it was an incredible thing to see how quickly people can deploy basically. Um, ’cause we aren’t like Chicago where like we’ve had a lot of activity here, but it’s been pretty quiet activity. Like, it’s like what happened here? It’s like you and your neighbors know about it and maybe 20 people showed up from your neighborhood rapid response. But like, they’re not the kinds of stories that. They’re not landing on rooftops, they’re not showing up with a hundred cars and calling people away. They’re hauling one person at a time away. And you hear about it here and there, but it’s been very quiet, unlike Chicago. Um, and so to have it given that, especially to have it show up just in your alley was like really, really insane. Um, so anyway, so it all, fortunately the, the police HSI, everybody left with nothing. They did not carry our neighbors away. They did not have any, any result of this warrant that we could tell. But of course, we’re not gonna know. Another [00:37:00] theme of this is how, how hard it is for good information to be resilient in a moment like this, right? That’s a whole other theme. And that, that’s one that gets me kinda riled up when people start after the fact or during the fact really kind of shouting out almost things that are wrong. Like the, the call that went out. For people to come. Said there were six cars in my alley with Texas plates, but I was very clear, there are six cars in my alley. One of them has Texas plates, right? So it’s like, that kind of stuff is a little spooky, but here’s what happened. So at the end it was all over. Our neighbors were able to pop out, wave at everybody, thank everybody. They had been handcuffed this family, um, in their living room while HSI figured out if they were citizens. And, um, what had what the whistles meant in this case was that they knew people were all over around the house. And that was, I’m sure, a level of comfort to know that like something’s happening out there. And then we learned later that there was an immigrant family down the block in the [00:38:00] other direction, across kind of a thoroughfare that we’re on the intersection of who heard the whistles and knew like, let’s stay in the house. There’s a lot going on out there. I dunno what it is, but now I hear whistles. Let’s stay in the house. And, um, and so it was quite a, quite a thing. Family Activism and Signal Setup Jeff: And what I kind of realized afterwards. Was we started this year. My family, my in-laws, my in-laws especially, were very, they’re, they’re, they’re very, um, active. They do kind of activist work, but it’s very like, um, service oriented. But they’ll go to an anti-war protest. They’ll go, you know, they’ll do the thing. They’re, they’re lovely people. And my father-in-law, especially at the beginning of the year, I was like, I don’t know what’s coming. Um, I hear that it’s good for everyone to have signal if we wanna be able to communicate to each other. So I wanna learn how to use signal. And so I helped him, my mother-in-law set it up. I created kind of a family group for Signal and everyone was setting up signal, right? Like at that point, not knowing what was gonna come. It wasn’t even January 20th yet. Unexpected End of Year Incident Jeff: And I wrapped up my year activating a signal network for rapid response because I [00:39:00] had masked people in my alley with guns refusing to identify themselves driving cars from out of state. That is insane. And I was like, that looks pretty tight. Season wrap up. Like, what the fuck? Because I kind of had gotten to the point, I guess prior to when ICE got here in, in the first place, I’d gotten to the point where I’m like, I don’t even really think about Signal anymore. Um, but then they came here and it, and it popped up. So that’s what, that’s what happened in my alley. Um, at the end of the year. Christina: And, and, and, and, and, and I mean, and, and, and you said, you said your neighbors are okay. Speculations and Concerns Christina: I mean, do, do you know anything more about like, like what, what happened or like what the, what the situation was? Jeff: I don’t know anymore. And that’s where I’m like a little cautious because since it was like a warrant for something, it was a narcotics warrant, right? Like, I, I have no idea what happened there. I don’t know. I can, I can only speculate. Um, but I know that the, the [00:40:00] name on that warrant was not someone that lives there. Um, so I can tell you that ’cause I saw the warrant. Um, and, and that’s the most I really feel comfortable saying. Christina: Fair enough. Yeah. I, I, I, I, yeah. I’m not, I’m not trying to like, Jeff: No, I get it. I get it. That’s me actually. Dealing with Law Enforcement Jeff: I’ve been wrestling with like, how much, even on the, I kind of like was asking people to be cautious, even on the signal, because they were sharing details about the warrant. I was like, Hey, details in a warrant. Do not share those, because that sticks to people. And like the details in the warrant were just like, no, we’re not gonna do this. Even when the guy read me the warrant, I was like, are you serious about that? He’s like, oh man, for sure. Okay, sounds good. Let’s, we’ll talk in an hour when you’re all done and you don’t have anything. Like I, I’ve been down this road before. I was a reporter for a long time, like I watched The Wire. Um, Christina: exactly. I was gonna say, yeah, I was gonna say the, the sort of reporting I did, like, yeah, I watched the Wire. Um, so would be Jeff: I said that to the guy. I didn’t say I watched the, yeah, I didn’t say I watched The Wire to the guy, but I was like, he [00:41:00] kept gaslighting us and I was like, come on man. Like you and I we’re smart people, you and I, and that was me being generous. But like, we’re smart people. You and I like, we know this thing you’re saying. It’s like, it’s totally not the case. Like when I asked him. The airport PD guy. What’s up with the cars with Texas plates and no plates and vanity plates? I don’t know, I don’t coordinate with those guys. I was like, okay, that’s weird. ’cause like here you are and they’re walking all around you. Surely you coordinated with them enough to get them here. It was just like, what the fuck? Just so much gaslighting that I won’t even get into, but it was just nonstop. But I was so proud watching my neighbors when the rapid responsible showed up. It was a, there’s always like some people in those situations where I, I, I get pretty activated around lack of discipline and I understand how that happens. But having been in like really super high stakes situations where people could, and who this was one, right? Like I don’t, I don’t react well internally to people who I feel like are working out something that’s theirs. Um, [00:42:00] and at the same time, how do we know how to process this, right? Like, I don’t, we, it was something incredible to watch Mask men and one masked woman walking up and down my alley, bumping past me with guns, with masks, with no idea, with no badges, refusing to pro produce any saying, why does it matter anyhow, saying how much threat they’re under, seeing how they get followed, like just, it was, it was an incredible thing. I had my reaction, but my reaction was based on wiring, based on really intense, unusual experiences. Um, other people, this is new to them. This kind of thing is new to me too, but, so anyway, I, I just like, I saved that. I didn’t even tell you guys when it happened. I’m like, I’ll just tell them on the podcast. ’cause Christina: yeah, no, I mean, that’s, that’s wild. I mean, like, and it’s just, it’s just, well, and, and it’s, I don’t know, it’s so dystopic, right? Like, it’s such a, like a, a terrible like thing to like have to like witness part of, right? Because like, look, yeah, there are going to be circumstances when maybe like, you know, Homeland Security or somebody else, like really actually does need to be involved and, you know, [00:43:00] um, you know, at your neighbor’s house. And like, that’s unfortunate, right? But like, there, there are real circumstances where that could be a case. Like I, I, I, I, I mentioned the, the Americans earlier, that was like, based Jeff: I need to watch that. Christina: It’s a great show. But, but the, the, the, uh, a former CIA agent was one of the, the, the, the creators. But the, um, the idea came to like, uh, one of the showrunners basically, he read an article, I think in the New Yorker or something about a, a family that like seemed like, just like the perfect, like normal family next door. And like the kids came home from school one day and the parents had been picked up because it turns out that they had been Russian spies living in the United States for like 20 years. And like, they were like actual Russian spies. And, and then that kind of like went into, okay, well, well, well, what happens then? Like, what happens to that family and, and what happens to get to that point? Like, what happens? Like if your neighbors are those things, right? And so there are those like very much like stranger than fiction. Like, like things, right? But in most cases, that’s not the circumstance. And, and certainly the way that like all this has been handled and the way that they’re doing all of this treat things for, [00:44:00] you know, like whatever the warrants were for whatever the situations are where they’re like, okay, now we’re gonna bring all these other groups in. We’re not going to have any due process at all, and we’re not going to, to bother with any sort of thing of humanity at all and then freak everybody else out, like is just, you know, then, and then it puts you like, as, as the neighbor, like in this position where you’re like, okay, well how do we get the word out? How do we help, how do we, you know, make sure that if’s something, is that if this is something that you know, isn’t what we, what we think that it is or whatever, that we can make sure that they’re not going to be. ’cause we see all the reports all the time. I mean, US citizens are getting arrested for, Jeff: Yeah, totally. Christina: the wrong way, Jeff: Oh yeah, we had a, we had a woman here probably, I think she was like in her sixties, and she walked out of her house ’cause there was something happening across the street. And in moments she was in the car, she was gone. Her husband didn’t know where she was. She was released later that day. Like we’ve had a lot of stories like that. And so that was stressful too, going in, right? Like when my partner and I went, went up to talk to this guy, I, I left down the alley to take pictures, but I [00:45:00] was like looking over my shoulder constantly. ’cause she and I have talked about how, like, can you imagine if one of us was taken and we didn’t know? And I was like, oh, we are in a situation right now where no way can I say, there’s no chance one of us will be taken. Like, no way. And you know, the longer you’re there, the more you push it a little bit, you know, not push it like physically or something, but just like push it a little more people out front. Someone kicked an ice car in, in an HSI car and got like pepper sprayed or whatever. Um, Christina: and it’s, and it’s like, don’t do that. Like, don’t like, Jeff: Well, it’s funny because, it’s funny because that per I, this is, I, I know there are people listening who will think I’m such an asshole for this, but I, to I, I feel zero apologetic for it. Reflections on Responsibility Jeff: So I am, I’m not like a huge fan, like kick the car when there’s a family that we don’t know how they’re doing and these people are around, like, don’t escalate in that way with these people. Don’t set off fireworks behind the guys that have their fingers resting near triggers. Like you Christina: That’s what I’m saying. That, that, yeah. Jeff: yeah, you just don’t do that. Uh, but here’s the part that makes me sound like an asshole and, and I don’t mind at all. [00:46:00] Um, they were, they were the only person that was pepper sprayed. And, and it was this, you know, certain people that come from outside the neighborhood. It was this very dramatic thing, whatever they pepper spray, you know, whatever. And I was like, what, what happened? They kicked the car. I was like, eh, I’m going in like, I mean like, yeah, you got pepper spray because you kicked the car. I assume you were in for that. Like you signed just like the guy with the mask who’s worried about being docked. He signed up for this dude. Christina: I was gonna say, you, you, you, you signed up for this, you, you, you, you’ve signed up because you saw Christina O’s you know, like ridiculous, like, you know, like, come, come join Ice, you know, like, like, you know, freaking social media, you know, posts or whatever, like there ads you’re doing like, yeah. Like you, you know exactly what you’re doing, so fuck off. I don’t, yeah, I have zero. Jeff: I I said you signed up for this. I did not sign up for this. I said you signed up for all of it, dude. Like you Christina: Yeah, absolutely. No, I mean, honestly, well, well look, you know, it’s the same thing like the military, frankly, like, you know, like in the, in, in the seventies and stuff, and we saw, you know, more of it then, like, I’m not saying that it was like the, the right or like nice or like humane thing to spit in the, in their faces. [00:47:00] Right. But like. Especially after the draft was gone. Like, you sign up for that shit, Jeff: It’s a tough man. I, I had that, I, that experience throughout the Iraq war where. I knew. I mean, there’s the economic draft. There’s all right, there’s all these reasons people end up in war. But at the end of the day, when I am walking around a city I love, and other Americans are there in armor and Humvees and they have destroyed a city, I feel like this is what you signed up for. It’s not what you signed up for, but it is literally what you signed. Same with police. It’s a little bit Christina: that’s Jeff: I totally respect the trauma. I respect that you’re in situations where Christina: that’s real. No. Jeff: your values. Like I Christina: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, and that, that is real. And, and to your point, there might be like, like economic scenarios, drafts and other scenarios where like you’re like, well, I had a choice, but I didn’t have a choice. Okay, but you knew that this was a trade off. Like you knew that this was a thing that comes with, with, with the territory. If it comes with adulation, but it comes with the bad stuff too. Right. Jeff: And if you’re killing people, I don’t feel super bad about saying that. I feel super bad for you for having to live with that [00:48:00] fact. But like I don’t feel bad for saying, Hey man, Christina: well, I mean, like, and, and it’s a Jeff: have said no. Christina: and it’s a completely different like thing. I’m not even trying to categorize it the same way. ’cause it’s, it’s not. But like, just, just like in, in my life, you know, people oftentimes will like, yell at me about stuff that they don’t like, about, like the companies like that I work for. And you know, what I, I’m, I’m part of my job is to kind of be a public face for, for those things. And that means that I get yelled at and that’s okay. And like that, that I, I quite literally knew that I signed up for that. Does that mean that I always appreciate it? That is, does that mean that I don’t get annoyed sometimes? Does that mean that I like being like tarred and feathered with like mistakes or decisions that like, I had nothing to do with Absolutely not right. But like, that’s quite literally part of my job. So, you know, it, it, it is. So I can’t like turn around and be like, oh, well, you know, you can’t, you know, like. You know, say, say this to me, or whatever. Right. Um, but, and, and again, I realize it’s a completely different scale of things. I’m not in any way trying to equate the, the, the, the two [00:49:00] scenarios, Jeff: No, but it’s, I mean, it is, yeah, Christina: but all of us, but all of us, we have jobs and we do things and like in a case like this, like if you work for those agencies, right. Especially right now, and like I recognize and I can be sympathetic that you may not have signed up. Under these circumstances. Having said that, I will say that if you signed up in the last eight years, you knew that these were things that were going in a certain direction, right? Um, I, I, I, I, I will, I will further say that like I, I’m not gonna say that like every single person is involved, but I will say like in the last eight years, you’ve, you’ve seen which way the wind was going and, and, and, and, and that’s okay. You can make that decision and, and like, I’m not gonna judge you or your character as a person for that decision. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m not. ’cause we all have to make decisions about where we work. Having said that, that just also means like what we’ve been saying, you’re gonna have to deal with some shit. You’re gonna deal with people recording your face. You’re gonna have to deal with people being angry with you. You’re gonna have to deal with, to your point, people kicking the cop car. And if that’s all that happens and like, and, and, and, and it’s not gonna lead to another escalation point, that’s fine. I, I’m with you. I

The Overtired trio reunites for the first time in ages, diving into a whirlwind of health updates, hilarious anecdotes, and the latest tech obsessions. Christina shares a dramatic spinal saga while Brett and Jeff discuss everything from winning reddit contests to creating a universal markdown processor. Tune in for updates on Mark 3, the magical world of Scrivener, and why Brett’s back on Bing. Don’t miss the banter or the tech tips, and as always, get ready to laugh, learn, and maybe feel a little overtired yourself. Sponsor Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all eCommerce in the US, from household names like Mattel and Gymshark, to brands just getting started. Get started today at shopify.com/overtired. Chapters 00:00 Welcome to the Overtired Podcast 01:09 Christina’s Health Journey 10:53 Brett’s Insurance Woes 15:38 Jeff’s Mental Health Update 24:07 Sponsor Spot: Shopify 24:18 Sponsor: Shopify 26:23 Jeff Tweedy 27:43 Jeff’s Concert Marathon 32:16 Christina Wins Big 36:58 Monitor Setup Challenges 37:13 Ergotron Mounts and Tall Poles 38:33 Review Plans and Honest Assessments 38:59 Current Display Setup 41:30 Thunderbolt KVM and Display Preferences 42:51 MacBook Pro and Studio Comparisons 50:58 Markdown Processor: Apex 01:07:58 Scrivener and Writing Tools 01:11:55 Helium Browser and Privacy Features 01:13:56 Bing Delisting Incident Show Links Danny Brown's 10 in the New York Times (gift link) Indigo Stack Scrivener Helium Bangs Apex Apex Syntax Join the Marked 3 Beta LG 32 Inch UltraFine™evo 6K Nano IPS Black Monitor with Thunderbolt™ 5 Join the Conversation Merch Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Brett + 2 Welcome to the Overtired Podcast Jeff: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. This is the Overtired podcast. The three of us are all together for the first time since the Carter administration. Um, it is great to see you both here. I am Jeff Severance Gunzel if I didn’t say that already. Um, and I’m here with Christina Warren and I’m here with Brett Terpstra and hello to both of you. Brett: Hi. Jeff: Great to see you both. Brett: Yeah, it’s good to see you too. I feel like I was really deadpan in the pre-show. I’ll try to liven it up for you. I was a horrible audience. You were cracking jokes and I was just Jeff: that’s true. Christina, before you came on, man, I was hot. I was on fire and Brett was, all Brett was doing was chewing and dropping Popsicle parts. Brett: Yep. I ate, I ate part of a coconut outshine Popsicle off of a concrete floor, but Jeff: It is true, and I didn’t even see him check it [00:01:00] for cat hair, Brett: I did though. Jeff: but I believe he did because he’s a, he’s a very Brett: I just vacuumed in Jeff: He’s a very good American Brett: All right. Christina’s Health Journey Brett: Well, um, I, Christina has a lot of health stuff to share and I wanna save time for that. So let’s kick off the mental health corner. Um, let’s let Christina go first, because if it takes the whole show, it takes the whole show. Go for it. Christina: Uh, I, I will not take this hold show, but thank you. Yeah. So, um, my mental health is okay-ish. Um, I would say the okay-ish part is, is because of things that are happening with my physical health and then some of the medications that I’ve had to be on, um, uh, to deal with it. Uh, prednisone. Fucking sucks, man. Never nev n never take it if you can avoid it. Um, but why Christina, why are you on prednisone or why were you on prednisone for five days? Um, uh, and I’m not anymore to be clear, but that certainly did not help my mental health. Um, at the beginning of November, I woke up and I thought that I’d [00:02:00] slept on my shoulder wrong. And, um, uh, and, and just some, some background. I, I don’t know if this is pertinent to how my injury took place or not, but, but it, I’m sure that it didn’t help. Um, I have scoliosis and in the top and the bottom of my spine, so I have it at the top of my, like, neck area and my lower back. And so my back is like a crooked s um, this will be relevant in a, in a second, but, but I, I thought that I had slept on my back bunny, and I was like, okay, well, all right, it hurts a lot, but fine. Um, and then it, a, a couple of days passed and it didn’t get any better, and then like a week passed and I was at the point where I was like, I almost feel like I need to go to the. Emergency room, I’m in pain. That is that significant. Um, and, you know, didn’t get any better. So I took some of grant’s, Gabapentin, and I took, um, some, some, uh, a few other things and I was able to get in with like a, a, a sports and spine guy. Um, and um, [00:03:00] he looked at me and he was like, yeah, I think that you have like a, a, a bolting disc, also known as a herniated disc. Go to physical therapy. See me later. We’ll, we’ll deal with it. Um. Basically like my whole left side was, was, was really sore and, and I had a lot of pain and then I had numbness in my, my fingers and um, and, and that was a problem the next day, which was actually my birthday. The numbness had at this point spread to my right side and also my lower extremities. And so at this point I called the doctor and he was like, yeah, you should go to the er. And so I went to the ER and, and they weren’t able to do anything for me other than give me, you know, like, um, you know, I was hoping they might give me like, some sort of steroid injection or something. They wouldn’t do anything other than, um, basically, um, they gave me like another type of maybe, maybe pain pill or whatever. Um, but that allowed the doctor to go ahead and. Write, uh, write up an MRI took forever for me to get an MRI, I actually had to get it in Atlanta. [00:04:00] Fun fact, uh, sometimes it is cheaper to just pay and not go through insurance and get an MR MRI and, um, a, um, uh, an x-ray, um, I was able to do it for $450 Jeff: Whoa. Really? Christina: Yeah, $400 for the MR mri. $50 for the x-ray. Jeff: Wow. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Brett: how I, they, I had an MRI, they charged me like $1,200 and then they failed to bill insurance ’cause I was between insurance. Christina: Yes. Yeah. So what happened was, and and honestly that was gonna be the situation that I was in, not between insurance stuff, but they weren’t even gonna bill insurance. And insurance only approved certain facilities and to get into those facilities is almost impossible. Um, and so, no, there are a lot of like get an MR, I now get a, you know, mammogram, get ghetto, whatever places. And because America’s healthcare system is a HealthScape, you can bypass insurance and they will charge you way less than whatever they bill insurance for. So I, I don’t know if it’s part of the country, you know, like Seattle I think might [00:05:00] probably would’ve been more expensive. But yeah, I was able to find this place like a mile from like, not even a mile from where my parents lived, um, that did the x-rays and the MRI for $450 total. Brett: I, I hate, I hate that. That’s true, but Christina: Me too. Me too. No, no. It pisses me off. Honestly, it makes me angry because like, I’m glad that I was able to do that and get it, you know, uh, uh, expedited. Then I go into the spine, um, guy earlier this week and he looks at it and he’s like, yep, you’ve got a massive bulging disc on, on C seven, which is the, the part of your lower cervical or cervical spine, which is your neck. Um, and it’s where it connects to your ver bray. It’s like, you know, there are a few things you can do. You can do, you know, injections, you can do surgery. He is like, I’m gonna recommend you to a neurosurgeon. And I go to the neurosurgeon yesterday and he was showing me or not, uh, yeah, yesterday he was showing me the, the, the, the scans and, and showing like you up close and it’s, yeah, it’s pretty massive. Like where, where, where the disc is like it is. You could see it just from one view, like, just from like [00:06:00] looking at it like, kind of like outside, like you could actually like see like it was visible, but then when you zoomed in it’s like, oh shit, this, this thing is like massive and it’s pressing on these nerves that then go into my, my hands and other areas. But it’s pressing on both sides. It’s primarily on my left side, but it’s pressing on on my right side too, which is not good. So, um, he basically was like, okay. He was like, you know, this could go away. He was like, the pain isn’t really what I’m wanting to, to treat here. It’s, it’s the, the weakness because my, my left arm is incredibly weak. Like when they do like the, the test where like they, they push back on you to see like, okay, like how, how much can you, what, like, I am, I’m almost immediately like, I can’t hold anything back. Right? Like I’m, I’m, I’m like a toddler in terms of my strength. So, and, and then I’m freaked out because I don’t have a lot of feeling in my hands and, and that’s terrifying. Um, I’m also. Jeff: so terrifying, Christina: I’m, I’m also like in extreme pain because of, of, of where this sits. Like I can’t sleep well. Like [00:07:00] the whole thing sucks. Like the MRI, which was was like the most painful, like 25 minutes, like of my existence. ’cause I was laying flat on my back. I’m not allowed to move and I’m just like, I’m in just incredible pain with that part of, of, of, of my, my side. Like, it, it was. It was terrible. Um, but, uh, but he was like, yeah. Um, these are the sorts of surgical options we have. Um, he’s gonna, um, do basically what what he wants to do is basically do a thing where he would put in a, um, an artificial or, or synthetic disc. So they’re gonna remove the disc, put in a synthetic one. They’ll go in through the, the front of my throat to access the, my, my, my, my spine. Um, put that there and, um, you know, I’ll, I’ll be overnight in the hospital. Um, and then it’ll be a few weeks of recovery and the, the, the pain should go away immediately. Um, but it, it could be up to two years before I get full, you know, feeling back in my arm. So anyway, Jeff: years, Jesus. And Christina: I mean, and hopefully less than that, but, but it could be [00:08:00] up to that. Jeff: there’s no part of this at this point. That’s a mystery to you, right? Christina: The mystery is, I don’t know how this happened. Jeff: You don’t know how it happened, right? Of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Brett: So tell, tell us about the ghastly surgery. The, the throat thing really threw me like, I can’t imagine that Christina: yeah, yeah. So, well, ’cause the thing is, is that usually if what they just do, like spinal fusion, they’ll go in at the back of your neck, um, and then they’ll remove the, the, um, the, the, the, the disc. And then they’ll fuse your, your, your two bones together. Basically. They’ll, they’ll, they’ll, they’ll fuse this part of the vertebrae, but because they’re going to be replacing the, the disc, they need more room. So that’s why they have to go in through the, through, through basically your throat so that they can have more room to work. Jeff: Good lord. No thank you. Brett: Ugh. Wow. Jeff: Okay. Brett: I am really sorry that is happening. That is, that is, that dwarfs my health concerns. That is just constant pain [00:09:00] and, and it would be really scary. Christina: Yeah. Yeah. It’s not great. It’s not great, but I’m, I’m, I’m doing what I can and, uh, like I have, you know, a small amount of, of Oxycodine and I have like a, a, a, you know, some other pain medication and I’m taking the gabapentin and like, that’s helpful. The bad part is like your body, like every 12, 15 hours, like whatever, like the, the, the cycle is like, you feel it leave your system and like if you’re asleep, you wake up, right? Like, it’s one of those things, like, you immediately feel it, like when it leaves your system. And I’ve never had to do anything for pain management before. And they have me on a very, they have me like on the smallest amount of like, oxycodone you can be on. Um, and I’m using it sparingly because I don’t wanna, you know, be reliant on, on it or whatever. But it, it, but it is one of those things where I’m like, yeah, like sometimes you need fucking opiates because, you know, the pain is like so constant. And the thing is like, what sucks is that it’s not always the same type of pain. Like sometimes it’s throbbing, sometimes it’s sharp, sometimes it’s like whatever. It sucks. But the hardest thing [00:10:00] is like, and. This does impact my mental health. Like it’s hard to sleep. Like, and I’m a side sleeper. I’m a side sleeper, and I’m gonna have to become a back sleeper. So, you know. Yeah. It’s just, it’s, it’s not great. It’s not great, but, you know, that, that, that, that, that’s me. The, the good news is, and I’m very, very gratified, like I have a good surgeon. Um, I’m gonna be able to get in to get this done relatively quickly. He had an appointment for next week. I don’t think that insurance would’ve even been able to approve things fast enough for, for, for that regard. And I have, um, commitments that I can’t make then. And I, and that would also mean that I wouldn’t be able to go visit my family for Christmas. So hopefully I’ll do it right after Christmas. I’m just gonna wait, you know, for, for insurance to, to do its thing, knock on wood, and then schedule, um, from there. But yeah, Jeff: Woof. Christina: so that’s me. Um, uh, who wants to go next? Jeff or, uh, Jeff or Brett? Jeff: It’s like, that’s me. Hot potato throwing it. Brett: I’ll, I’ll go. Brett’s Insurance Woes Brett: I can continue on the insurance topic. Um, I was, for a few months [00:11:00] after getting laid off, I was on Minsu, which is Minnesota’s Medicaid, um, v version of Medicaid. And so basically I paid nothing and I had better insurance than I usually have with, uh, you know, a full deductible and premiums and everything. And it was fantastic. I was getting all the care I needed for all of the health stuff I’m going through. Um, I, they, a, a new doctor I found, ordered the 15 tests and I passed out ’cause it was so much blood and. And it, I was getting, but I was getting all these tests run. I was getting results, we were discovering things. And then my unemployment checks, the income from unemployment went like $300 over the cap for Medicaid. So [00:12:00] all of a sudden, overnight I was cut from Medicaid and I had to do an early sign up, and now I’m on courts and it sucks bad. Like they’re not covering my meds. Last month cost me $600. I was also paying. In addition to that, a $300 premium plus every doctor’s visit is 50 bucks out of pocket. So this will hopefully only last until January, and then it’ll flip over and I will be able to demonstrate basically no income, um, until like Mark makes enough money that it gets reported. Um, and even, uh, until then, like I literally am making under the, the poverty limit. So, um, I hope to be back on Medicaid shortly. I have one more month. I’ll have to pay my $600 to refill. I [00:13:00] cashed out my 401k. Um, like things were, everything was up high enough that I had made, I. I had made tens of thousands of dollars just on the investments and the 401k, but I also have a lot of concerns about the market volatility around Nvidia and the AI bubble in general. Um, so taking my money out of the market just felt okay to me. I paid the 10%, uh, penalty Jeff: Mm-hmm. Brett: and ultimately I, I came out with enough cash that I can invest on my own and be able to cover the next six months. Uh, if I don’t have any other income, which I hope to, I hope to not spend my nest egg. Um, but I did, I did a lot of thinking and calculating and I think I made the right choices. But anyway, [00:14:00] that will help if I have to pay for medical stuff that will help. Um. And then I’ve had insomnia, bad on and off. Right now I’m coming off of two days of good sleep. You’re catching me on a good day. Um, but Jeff: Still wouldn’t laugh at my jokes. Brett: before that it was, well, that’s the thing is like before that, it was four nights where I slept two to four hours per night, and by the end of it, I could barely walk. And so two nights of sleep after a stint like that, like, I’m just super, I’m deadpan, I’m dazed. Um, I could lay down and fall asleep at any time. Um, I, so, so keep me awake. Um, but yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s me. Mental health is good. Like I’m in pretty high spirits considering all this, like financial stuff and everything. Like my mood has been pretty stable. I’ve been getting a lot of coding done. I’ll tell you about projects in [00:15:00] a minute, but, um, but that’s, that’s me. I’m done. Jeff: Awesome. I’m enjoying watching your cat roll around, but clearly cannot decide to lay down at this point. Brett: No, nobody is very persnickety. Jeff: I literally have to put my. Well, you say put a cat down like you used to. When you put a kid down for a nap, you say you wanna put ’em down. Right? That’s where it’s coming from. I now have a chair next to my desk, ’cause I have one cat that walks around Yowling at about 11:00 AM while I’m working. And I have to like, put ’em down for a nap. It’s pathetic. It’s pathetic that I do that. Let’s just be clear. Brett: Yeah. Jeff: soulmate though. Jeff’s Mental Health Update Jeff: Um, I’m doing good. I’m, I’m, I’ve been feeling kind of light lately in a nice way. I’ve had ups and downs, but even with the ups and downs, there’s like a, except for one day last week was, there’s just been feeling kind of good in general, which is remarkable in a way. ’cause it’s just like stressful time. There’s some stressful business stuff, like, [00:16:00] a lot of stuff like that. But I’m feeling good and, and just like, uh, yeah, just light. I don’t know, it’s weird. Like, I’ve just been noticing that I feel kind of light and, uh. And not, not manic, not high light. Brett: Yeah. No, that’s Jeff: uh, and that’s, that’s lovely. So yeah. And so I’m doing good. I’m doing good. I fucking, it’s cold. Which sucks ’cause it just means for everybody that’s heard about my workshop over the years, that I can’t really go out there and have it be pleasant Brett: It’s, it’s been Minnesota thus far. Has had, we’ve had like one, one Sub-Zero day. Jeff: whatever. It’s fucking cold. Christina: Yeah. What one? Brett? Brett. It’s December 6th as we’re recording this one Sub-Zero day. That’s insane. Brett: Is it Jeff: Granted, granted I’ve been dressing warm, so I’m ready to go out the door for ice related things. Meaning, meaning government, ice, Brett: Uh, yeah. Yeah. Jeff: So I like wear my long underwear during [00:17:00] the day. ’cause actually like recently. So at my son’s school, which is like six blocks from here, um, has a lot of Somali immigrants in it. And, and uh, and there was a, at one point there was ice activity in the other direction, um, uh, uh, near me. And so neighbors put out a call here around so that at dismissal time people would pair up at all the intersections surrounding the school. And, um, and like a quick signal group popped up, whatever. It was so amazing because like we all just popped out there. And by the time I got out, uh, everyone was already like, posted up and I was like, I’m a, in these situations, I am a wanderer. You want me roaming? I don’t want to pair up with somebody I don’t like, I just, I grabbed a camera with a Zoom on it and like, I was like, I’m in roam. Um, it’s what I was as an activist, what I was as a reporter, like it’s just my nature. Um, but like. Everybody was out and like, and they were just like, they were ready man. And then we got like the all clear and you could just see people in the [00:18:00] neighborhood just like standing down and going home. But because of the true threat and the ongoing arrests here, now that the Minneapolis stuff has started, like I do, I was like wearing long underwear just, and I have a little bag by the door ready to like pop out if something comes up and I can be helpful. Um, and uh, and I guess what I’m saying is I should use that to go into the garage as well if I’m already prepared. Brett: Right. Jeff: But here’s, okay, so here’s a mental health thing actually. So I, one of the, I’ve gone through a few years of just sort of a little bit of paralysis around being able to just, I don’t know what, like do anything that is kind of project related that takes some thinking, whatever it is, like I’m talking about around the house or things that have kind of broken over the years, whatever. So I’ve had this snowblower and it’s a really good snowblower. It’s got headlights. And, uh, and I used to love snow blowing the entire block. Like it just made me feel good, made me feel useful. Um, and sorry I cough. I left it outside for a [00:19:00] year for a, like a winter and a spring and water got into the gas tank. It rusted out in there. I knew I couldn’t start it or I’d ruin the whole damn engine. So I left it for two years and I felt bad about myself. But this year, just like probably a month before the first big snowfall, I fucking replaced a gas tank and a carburetor on a machine. And I have never done anything like that in my life. And so then we got the snowfall and I, and I snow blowed this whole block Brett: Nice. Jeff: great. ’cause now they all owe me. Brett: I, uh, I have a, uh, so I have a little electric powered, uh, snowblower that can handle like two inches of snow. Um, and, and on big snowfalls, if you get out there every hour and keep up with it, it, it works. But, but I, my back right now, I can’t stand for, I can’t stand still for 10 minutes and I can’t move for more than like five minutes. And so I’m, I’m very disabled and El has good days and bad days, uh, thus [00:20:00] far. L’s been out there with a shovel, um, really being the hero. But we have a next door neighbor with a big gas powered snowblower. And so we went over, brought them gifts, and, um, asked if they would take care of our driveway on days we couldn’t, uh, for like, you know, we’d pay ’em 25 bucks to do the driveway. And, uh, and they were, he was still reluctant to accept money. Um. But, but we both agreed it was better to like make it a, a transaction. Jeff: Oh my God. You don’t want to get into weird Minnesota neighbor relational. Brett: right. You don’t want the you owe me thing. Um, so, so we have that set up. But in the process we made really good friends with our neighbor. Like we sat down in their living room for I think 45 minutes and just like talked about health and politics and it was, it was really fun. They’re, they’re retired. They’re in their [00:21:00] seventies and like act, he always looks super grumpy. I always thought he was a mean old man. He’s actually, he laughs more easily than most people I’ve ever met. Um, he’s actually, when people say, oh, he is actually a teddy bear, this guy really is, he’s just jovial. Uh, he just has resting angry old man face. Jeff: Or like my, I have public mis throat face, like when I’m out and about, especially when I’m shopping, I know that my face is, I’m gonna fucking kill you if you look me in the eye Brett: I used Jeff: is not my general disposition. Brett: people used to tell me that about myself, but I feel like I, I carry myself differently these days than I did when I was younger. Jeff: You know what I learned? Do you, have you both watched Veep, Christina: Yes, Jeff: you know, Richard sp split, right? Um, and, and he always kind of has this sweet like half smile and he is kind of looking up and I, I figured out at one point I was in an airport, which is where my kill everybody face especially comes up. Just to be clear. TSA, it’s just a feeling inside. I [00:22:00] have no desire to act to this out. I realized that if I make the Richard Plet face, which I can try to make for you now, which is something like if I just make the Richard Plet face, my whole disposition Brett: yeah. Yeah. Jeff: uh, and I even feel a little better. And so I just wanna recommend that to people. Look up Richard Spt, look at his face. Christina: Hey, future President Bridges split. Jeff: future President Richard Splat, also excellent in the Detroiters. Um, that’s all, uh, that’s all I wanted to say about that. Brett: I have found that like when I’m texting with someone, if I start to get frustrated, you know, you know that point where you’re still adding smiley emoticons even though you’re actually not, you’re actually getting pissed off, but you don’t wanna sound super bitchy about it, so you’re adding smile. I have found that when I add a smiley emoji in those circumstances, if I actually smile before I send it, it like my [00:23:00] mood will adjust to match, to match the tone I’m trying to convey, and it lessens my frustration with the other person. Jeff: a little joy wrist rocket. Christina: Yeah. Hey, I mean, no, but hey, but, but that, that, that, that, that’s interesting. I mean, they’re, they, they’ve done studies that like show that, right? That like show like, you know, I mean, like, some of this is all like bullshit to a certain extent, but there is something to be said for like, you know, like the power of like positive thinking and like, you know, if you go into things with like, different types of attitudes or even like, even if you like, go into job interviews or other situations, like you act confident or you smile, or you act happy or whatever. Even if you’re not like it, the, the, the, the euphoria, you know, that those sorts of uh, um, endorphin reactions or whatever can be real. So that’s interesting. Brett: Yeah, I found, I found going into job interviews with my usual sarcastic and bitter, um, kind of mindset, Jeff: I already hate this job. Brett: it doesn’t play well. It doesn’t play well. So what are your weaknesses? Fuck off. Um,[00:24:00] Christina: right. Well, well, well, I hate people. Jeff: Yeah. Dealing with motherfuckers like you, that’s one weakness. Sponsor Spot: Shopify Brett: let’s, uh, let’s do a sponsor spot and then I want to hear about Christina winning a contest. Christina: yes. Jeff: very Brett: wanna, you wanna take it away? Sponsor: Shopify Jeff: I will, um, our sponsor this week is Shopify. Um, have you ever, have you just been dreaming of owning your own business? Is that why you can’t sleep? In addition to having something to sell, you need a website. And I’ll tell you what, that’s been true for a long time. You need a payment system, you need a logo, you need a way to advertise new customers. It can all be overwhelming and confusing, but that is where today’s sponsor, Shopify comes in. shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gym Shark to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready to use [00:25:00] templates. 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That was Jeff: Yeah. Cha-ching Brett: they got the chorus, they got the Overtired Christina: You did. You got the Overtired Jeff: They didn’t think to ask for it, but that’s our brand. Christina: shopify.com/ Overtired. Jeff Tweedy Jeff: What was, uh, I was watching a Stephen Colbert interview with Jeff Tweedy, who just put out a triple album and, uh, it was a very thoughtful, sweet interview. And then Stephen Colbert said, you know, you’re not supposed to do this. And Jeff Tweety said, it’s all part of my career long effort to leave the public wanting less. Christina: Ha, Jeff: That was a great bit. Christina: that’s a fantastic bit. A side note, there are a couple of really good NPR, um, uh, tiny desks that have come out in the last couple of month, uh, couple of weeks. Um, uh, one is shockingly, I, I’ll, I’ll just be a a, a fucking boomer about it. The Googo dolls. Theirs was [00:27:00] great. It’s fantastic. They did a great job. It already has like millions of views, like it wrecked up like over a million views, I think like in like, like less than 24 hours. They did a great job, but, uh, but Brandy Carlisle, uh, did one, um, the other day and hers is really, really good too. So, um, so yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah. Anyway, you said, you saying Jeff pd maybe, I don’t know how I got from Wilco to like, you know, there, Jeff: Yeah. Well, they’ve done some good, he’s done his own good Christina: he has, he has done his own. Good, good. That’s honestly, that’s probably what I was thinking of, but Jeff: It’s my favorite Jeff besides me because Bezos, he’s not in the, he’s not in the game. Christina: No. No, he’s not. No. Um, he, he’s, he’s not on the Christmas card list at all. Jeff: Oh man. Jeff’s Concert Marathon Jeff: Can I just tell you guys that I did something, um, I did something crazy a couple weeks ago and I went to three shows in one week, like I was 20 fucking two, Brett: Good grief. Jeff: and. It was a blast. So, okay, so the background of this is my oldest son [00:28:00] loves hip hop, and when we drive him to college and back, or when I do, it’s often just me. Um, he, he goes deep and he, it’s a lot of like, kind of indie hip hop and a lot. It’s just an interesting, he listens to interesting shit, but he will go deep and he’ll just like, give me a tour through someone’s discography or through all their features somewhere, whatever it is. And like, it’s the kind of input that I love, which is just like, I don’t, even if it’s not my genre, like if you’re passionate and you can just weave me through the interrelationship and the history and whatever it is I’m in. So as a result of that, made me a huge fan of Danny Brown and made me a huge fan of the sky, Billy Woods. And so what happened was I went to a hip hop show at the seventh Street entry, uh, which is attached to First Avenue. It’s a little club, very small, lovely little place, the only place my band could sell out. Um, and I watched a hip hop show there on a Monday night, Tuesday night. I went to the Uptown Theater, which Brett is now a actually an operating [00:29:00] theater for shows. Uh, and I, and I saw Danny Brown, but I also saw two hyper pop bands, a genre I was not previously aware of, including one, which was amazing, called Fem Tenal. And I was in line to get into that show behind furries, behind trans Kids. Like it was this, I was the weirdest, like I did not belong. Underscores played, and, and this will mean something to somebody out there, but not, didn’t mean anything to me until that night. And, uh. I felt like such, there were times, not during Danny Brown, Danny Brown’s my age all good. But like there were times where I was in the crowd ’cause I’m tall. Anybody that doesn’t know I’m very tall and I’m wearing like a not very comfortable or safe guy seeming outfit, a black hoodie, a black stocking cap. Like I basically looked like I’m possibly a shooter and, and I’m like standing among all these young people loving it, but feeling a little like, should I go to the back? Even like I was leaving that show [00:30:00] and the only people my age were people’s parents that were waiting to pick them up on the way out. So anyway, that was night two. Danny Brown was awesome. And then two nights later I went to see, this is way more my speed, a band called the Dazzling Kilman who were a band that. Came out in the nineties, St. Louis and a noisy Matthew Rock. Wikipedia claims they invented math rock. It’s a really stupid claim, uh, but it’s a lovely, interesting band and it’s a friend of mine named Nick Sakes, who’s who fronted that band and was in all these great bands back when I was in bands called Colos Mite and Sick Bay, and all this is great shit. So they played a reunion show. In this tiny punk rock club here called Cloudland, just a lovely little punk rock club. And, um, and, and that was like rounded out my week. So like, I was definitely, uh, a tourist the early part of the week, mostly at the Danny Brown Show. But then I like got to come home to my noisy punk rock [00:31:00] on, uh, on Thursday night. And I, I fucking did three shows and it hurt so bad. Like even by the first of three bands on the second night. I was like, I don’t think I can make it. And I do. I already pregame shows with ibuprofen. Just to be really clear, I microdose glucose tabs at shows like, like I am, I am a full on old man doing these things. But, um, I did get some cred with my kids for being at a hyper pop show all by myself. And, Christina: Hell yeah. A a Jeff: friends seemed impressed. Christina: no, as a as, as as they should be. I’m impressed. And like, and I, I, I typically like, I definitely go to like more of like, I go, I go to shows more frequently and, and I’m, I’m even like, I’m, I’m gonna be real with you. I’m like, yeah, three in one week. Jeff: That’s a lot. Christina: That’s a lot. That’s a lot. Jeff: man. Did I feel good when I walked home from that last show though? I was like, I fucking did it. I did not believe I wasn’t gonna bail on at least two of those shows, if not all three. Anyway, just wanted to say Brett: I [00:32:00] do like one show a year, but Jeff: that’s how I’ve been for years this year. I think I’ve seen eight shows. Brett: damn. Jeff: Yeah, it’s Brett: Alright, so you’ve been teasing us about this, this contest you won. Jeff: Yeah, please, Christina. Sorry to push that off. Christina: No, no, no, no. That’s, that’s completely okay. That, that, that, that’s great. Uh, no. Christina Wins Big Christina: So, um, I won two six K monitors. Brett: Damn. Jeff: is that what those boxes are behind you? Christina: Yeah, yeah. This is what the boxes are behind me, so I haven’t been able to get them up because this happened. I got them literally right in the midst of all this stuff with my back. Um, but I do have an Ergotron poll now that is here, and, and Grant has said that he will, will get them up. But yeah, so I won 2 32 inch six K monitors from a Reddit contest. Brett: How, how, how, Jeff: How does this happen? How do I find a Reddit contest? Christina: Yeah. So I got lucky. So I have, I, I have a clearly, well, well, um, there was a little, there was a little bit of like, other step to it than that, but like, uh, so how it worked was basically, um, LG is basically just put out [00:33:00] two, they put out a new 32 inch six K monitor. I’ll have it linked in, in, in the show notes. Um, so we’ve talked about this on this podcast before, but like one of my big, like. Pet peeve, like things that I can’t get past. It’s like I need like a retina screen. Like I need like the, the perfect pixel doubling thing for that the Mac Os deals with, because I’ve used a 5K screen, either through an iMac or um, an lg, um, ultra fine or, um, a, uh, studio display. For like 11 years. And, and I, and I’ve been using retina displays on laptops even longer than that. And so if I use like a regular 4K display, like it just, it, it doesn’t work for me. Um, you can use apps like, um, like better control and other things to kind of emulate, like what would be like if you doubled the resolution, then it, it down, you know, um, of samples that, so that. It looks better than, than if it’s just like the, the, the 4K stuff where in the, the user interface things are too big and whatnot. And to be clear, this is a Macco West problem. If [00:34:00] you are using Windows or Linux or any other operating system that does fractional scaling, um, correctly, then this is not a problem. But Macco West does not do fractional scaling direct, uh, correctly. Um, weirdly iOS can, like, they can do three X resolution and other things. Um, but, but, but Macs does not. And that’s weird because some of the native resolutions on some of the MacBook errors are not even perfectly pixeled doubled, meaning Apple is already having to do a certain amount of like resolution changes to, to fit into their own, created by their, their own hubris, like way of insisting on, on only having like, like two x pixel doubling 18 years ago, we could have had independent, uh, resolutions, uh, um, for, for UI elements and, and, and window bars. But anyway, I, I’m, I’m digressing anyway. I was looking at trying to get either a second, uh, studio display, which I don’t wanna do because Apple’s reportedly going to be putting out a new one. Um, and they’re expensive or getting, um, there are now a number of different six K [00:35:00] displays that are not $6,000 that are on the market. So, um, uh, uh, Asus has one, um, there is one from like a, a Chinese company called like, or Q Con that, um, looks like a, a complete copy of this, of the pro display XDR. It has a different panel, but it’s, it’s six K and they, they’ve copied the whole design and it’s aluminum and it’s glossy and it looks great, but I’d have to like get it from like. A weird distributor, and if I have any issues with it, I don’t really wanna have to send it back to China and whatnot. And then LG has one that they just put out. And so I’ve been researching these on, on Mac rumors and on some other forums. And, um, I, uh, I, somebody in one of the Mac Roomers forums like posted that there was like a contest that LG was running in a few different subreddits where they were like, tell us why you should get one of, like, we’re gonna be giving away like either one or two monitors, and I guess they did this in a few subreddits. Tell us why this would be good for your workflow. And, um, I guess I, I guess I’m one of the people who kind of read the [00:36:00] assignment because it, okay, I’ll just be honest with this, with, with you guys on this podcast, uh, because I, I don’t think anyone from LG will hear this and my answers were accurate anyway. But anyway, this was not the sort of contest where it was like we will randomly select a winner. This was the moderators and lg, were going to read the responses and choose the winner. Jeff: Got it. Christina: So if you spend a little bit of time and thoughtfully write out a response, maybe you stand a better chance of winning the contest. Jeff: yeah, yeah. Put the work in like it was 2002. Christina: Right. Anyway, I still was shocked when I like woke up like on like Halloween and they were like, congratulations, you’ve won two monitors. I’m like, I’m sorry. What? Jeff: That’s amazing. Christina: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jeff: Nice work. I know I’ve, you know, I’ve been staring at those boxes behind you this whole time, just being like, those look like some sweet monitors. Christina: yeah, yeah. Monitor Setup Challenges Christina: I mean, and, uh, [00:37:00] uh, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, and I, I’m very much, so my, my, my only issue is, okay, how am I gonna get these on my desk? So I’m gonna have to do something with my iMac and I’m probably gonna have to get rid of my, my my, my 5K, um, uh, uh, studio display, at least in the short term. Ergotron Mounts and Tall Poles Christina: Um, but what I did do is I, um, I ordered from, um, Ergotron, ’cause I already have. Um, two of their, um, LX mounts, um, or, or, or, or arms. Um, and only one of them is being used right now. And then I have a different arm that I use for the, um, um, iMac. Um, they sell like a, if you call ’em directly, you can get them to send you a tall pole so that you can put the two arms on top of them. And that way I think I can like, have them so that I can have like one pole and then like have one on one side, one Jeff: I have a tall pole. Christina: and, and yeah, that’s what she said. Um, Jeff: as soon as I said it, I was like, for fuck’s sake. But Christina: um, but, uh, but, but yeah, but so that way I think I, I can, I, in theory, I can stack the market and have ’em side by side. I don’t know. Um, I got that. I, I had to call Tron and, and order that from them. [00:38:00] Um, it was only a hundred dollars for, for the poll and then $50 for a handling fee. Jeff: It’s not easy to ship a tall pole. Brett: That’s what she said. Christina: that is what she said. Uh, that is exactly what she said. But yeah, so I, I, the, the, the unfortunate thing is that, um, I, um, I, I had to, uh, get a, like all these, they, they came in literally right before Thanksgiving, and then I’ve had, like, all my back stuff has Jeff: Yeah, no Christina: debilitating, but I’m looking forward to, um, getting them set up and used. And, uh, yeah. Review Plans and Honest Assessments Christina: And then full review will be coming to, uh, to, I have to post a review on Reddit, but then I will also be doing a more in depth review, uh, on this podcast if anybody’s interested in, in other places too, to like, let let you know, like if it’s worth your money or not. Um, ’cause there, like I said, there are, there are a few other options out there. So it’s not one of those things where like, you know, um, like, thank you very much for the free monitor, um, monitors. But, but I, I will, I will give like the, the, you know, an honest assessment or Current Display Setup Brett: So [00:39:00] do you currently have a two display setup? Christina: No. Um, well, yes, and kind of, so I have my, my, I have my 5K studio display, and then I have like my iMac that I use as a two to display setup. But then otherwise, what I’ve had to do, and this is actually part of why I’m looking forward to this, is I have a 4K 27 inch monitor, but it’s garbage. And it, it’s one of those things where I don’t wanna use it with my Mac. And so I wind up only using it with my, with my Windows machine, with my framework desktop, um, with my Windows or Linux machine. And, and because that, even though I, it supports Thunderbolt, the Apple display is pain in the ass to use with those things. It doesn’t have the KVM built in. Like, it doesn’t like it, it just, it’s not good for that situation. So yeah, this will be of this size. I mean, again, like I, I, I’m 2 32 inch monitors. I don’t know how I’m gonna deal with that on my Jeff: I Brett: yeah. So right now I’m looking at 2 32 inch like UHD monitors, Christina: Yeah,[00:40:00] Brett: I will say that on days when my neck hurts, it sucks. It’s a, it’s too wide a range to, to like pan back and forth quickly. Like I’ll throw my back out, like trying to keep track of stuff. Um, but I have found that like if I keep the second display, just like maybe social media apps is the way I usually set it up. And then I only work on one. I tried buying an extra wide curve display, hated it. Jeff: Uh, I’ve always wanted to try one, but Christina: I don’t like them. Jeff: Yeah. Christina: Well, for me, well for me it’s two things. One, it’s the, I don’t love the whole like, you know, thing or whatever, but the big thing honestly there, if you could give me, ’cause people are like, oh, you can get a really big 5K, 2K display. I’m like, that’s not a 5K display. That is 2 27 inch, 1440 P displays. One, you know, ultra wide, which is great. Good for you. That’s not retina. And I’m a sicko Who [00:41:00] needs the, the pixel doubling? Like I wish that my eyes could not use that, but, but, but, Jeff: that needs the pixel. Like was that the headline of your Reddit, uh, Christina: no, no. It wasn’t, it wasn’t. But, but maybe it should be. Hi, I’m a sicko who only, um, fucks with, with, with, with, with, with, with retina displays. Ask me anything. Um, but no, but that’s a good point. Brett: I think 5K Psycho is the Christina: 5K Sicko is the po is the po title. I like that. I like that. No, what I’m thinking about doing and that’s great to know, Brett. Um, this kind of reaffirms my thing. Thunderbolt KVM and Display Preferences Christina: So what’s nice about these monitors is that they come with like, built in like, um, Thunderbolt 5K VM. So, which is nice. So you could conceivably have multiple, you know, computers, uh, connected, you know, to to, to one monitor, which I really like. Um, I mean like, ’cause like look, I, I’ve bitched and moaned about the studio display, um, primarily for the price, but at the same time, if mine broke tomorrow and if I didn’t have any way to replace it, I’ve, I’ve also gone on record saying I would buy a new one immediately. As mad as I am about a [00:42:00] lot of different things with that, that the built-in webcam is garbage. The, you know, the, the fact that there’s not a power button is garbage. The fact that you can’t use it with multiple inputs, it’s garbage. But it’s a really good display and it’s what I’m used to. Um, it’s really not any better than my LG Ultra fine from 2016. But you know what? Whatever it is, what it is. Um. I, I am a 5K sicko, but being able to, um, connect my, my personal machine and my work machine at the same time to one, and then have my Windows slash Linux computer connected to another, I think that’s gonna be the scenario where I’m in. So I’m not gonna necessarily be in a place where I’m like, okay, I need to try to look at both of them across 2 32 inch displays. ’cause I think that that, like, that would be awesome. But I feel like that’s too much. Brett: I would love a decent like Thunderbolt KVM setup that could actually swap like my hubs back and Christina: Yes. MacBook Pro and Studio Comparisons Brett: Um, so, ’cause I, I have a studio and I have my, uh, Infor MacBook Pro [00:43:00] and I actually work mostly on the MacBook Pro. Um, but if I could easily dock it and switch everything on my desk over to it, I would, I would work in my office more often. ’cause honestly, the M four MacBook Pro is, it’s a better machine than the original studio was. Um, and I haven’t upgraded my studio to the latest, but, um, I imagine the new one is top notch. Christina: Oh yeah. Yeah. Brett: my, my other one, a couple years old now is already long in the tooth. Christina: No, I mean, they’re still good. I mean, it’s funny, I saw that some YouTube video the other day where they were like, the best value MacBook you can get is basically a 4-year-old M1 max. And I was like, I don’t know about that guys. Like, I, I kind of disagree a little bit. Um, but the M1 max, which is I think is what is in the studio, is still a really, really good ship. But to your point, like they’ve made those, um. You know, the, the, the new ones are still so good. Like, I have an M three max as my personal laptop, and [00:44:00] that’s kind of like the dog chip in the, in the m um, series lineup. So I kind of am regretful for spending six grand on that one, but it is what it is, and I’m like, I’m not, I’m not upgrading. Um, I mean, maybe, maybe in, in next year if, if the M five Pro, uh, or M five max or whatever is, is really exceptional, maybe I’ll look at, okay, how much will you give me to, to trade it in? But even then, I, I, but I feel like I’m at that point where I’m like, it gets to a point where like it’s diminishing returns. Um, but, uh, just in terms of my own budget. But, um, yeah, the, the new just info like pro or or max, whatever, Brett: I have, I have an M four MacBook Pro sitting around that I keep forgetting to sell. Uh, it’s the one that I, it only had a 256 gigabyte hard drive, Jeff: what happened to me when I bought my M1, Brett: and I, and I regretted that enough that I just ordered another one. But, uh, for various reasons, I couldn’t just return the one I didn’t Jeff: ’cause it was.[00:45:00] Brett: so now I, now I have to sell it and I should sell it while it’s still a top of the line machine Christina: Sell it before, sell, sell, sell, sell it before next month, um, or, or February or whenever they sell it before then the, the pros come out. ’cause right now the M five base is out, but the pros are not. So I think feel like you could still get most of your value for it, especially since it has very few battery cycles. Be sure to put the battery cycles on your Facebook marketplace or eBay thing or whatever. Um, I bought my, uh, she won’t listen to this so she won’t know, but, um, they, there was a, a killer Cyber Monday deal, uh, for Best Buy where they had like a, the, the, the, so it’s several years old, but it was the, the M two MacBook Air, but the one that they upgraded to 16 gigs of Ram when Apple was like, oh, we have to have Apple Intelligence and everything, because they actually thought that they were actually gonna ship Apple Intelligence. So they like went back and they, like, they, they, you know, retconned like made the base model MacBook Air, like 16 [00:46:00] gigs. Um, and, uh, anyway, it was, it was $600, um, Jeff: still crazy. Christina: which, which like even for like a, a, a 2-year-old machine or whatever, I was like, yeah, she, my sister, I think she’s on like, like a 2014 or older than that. Like, like MacBook Air. She doesn’t even know where the MagSafe is. I don’t think she even knows where the laptop is. So she’s basically doing everything like on her phone and I’m like, okay, you need a laptop of some type, but at this point. I do feel strongly that like the, the, the $600 or, or, or actually I think it was $650, it was actually less, it is actually more expensive than what the, the, the Cyber Monday sale was, um, the M1, Walmart, MacBook Air. I’m like, absolutely not like that is at this point, do not buy that. Right? Like, I, especially with eight gigs of ram, I’m, I’m like, it’s been, it’s five years old. It’s a, it was a great machine and it was great value for a long time. $200. Cool, right? Like, if you could get something like use and, and, and, and if you could replace the battery or, you know, [00:47:00] for, for, you know, not, not too much money or whatever. Like, I, I, I could see like an argument to be made like value, right? But there’d be no way in hell that I would ever spend or tell anybody else to spend $650 on that new, but $600 for an M two with Jeff: Now we’re talking. Christina: which has the redesign brand new. I’m like, okay. Spend $150 more and you could have got the M four, um, uh, MacBook Air, obviously all around Better Machine. But for my sister, she doesn’t need that, Jeff: What do we have to do to put your sister in this M two MacBook Christina: that, that, that, that, that, that’s exactly it. So I, I, I was, well, also, it was one of those things I was like, I think that she would rather me spend the money on toys for my nephew for Santa Claus than, than, uh, giving her like a, a processor upgrade. Um, Jeff: Claus isn’t real. Brett: Oh shit. Jeff: Gotcha. Every year I spoil it for somebody. This year it was Christina and Brett. Sorry guys. Brett: right. Well, can I tell you guys Jeff: Yeah. [00:48:00] Brett Software. Brett: two quick projects before we do Jeff: Hold on. You don’t have to be quick ’cause you could call it Brett: We’re already at 45 minutes and I want Jeff: What I’m saying, skip GrAPPtitude. This is it? Brett: okay. Christina: us about Mark. Tell us about your projects. Brett: So, so Mark three is, there’s a public, um, test flight beta link. Uh, if you go to marked app.com, not marked two app.com, uh, marked app.com. Uh, you, there’s a link in the, in the, at the top for Christina: Join beta. Mm-hmm. Brett: Um, and that is public and you can join it and you can send me feedback directly through email because, um, uh, uh, the feedback reporter sucks for test flight and you can’t attach files. And half the time they come through as anonymous feedback and I can’t even follow up on ’em. So email me. But, um, I’ll be announcing that on my blog soon-ish. Um, right now there’s like [00:49:00] maybe a couple dozen, um, testers and I, it’s nice and small and I’m solving the biggest bugs right away. Um, so that’s been, that’s been big. Like Mark, even since we last talked has added. Do you remember Jeff when Merlin was on and he wanted to. He wanted to be able to manage his styles, um, and disable built-in styles. There’s now a whole table based style manager where you Jeff: saw that. Brett: you can, you can reorder, including built-in styles. You can reorder, enable, disable, edit, duplicate. Um, it’s like a full, full fledged, um, style manager. And I just built a whole web app that is a style generator that gives you, um, automatic like rhythm calculations for your CSS and you can, you can control everything through like, uh, like UI fields instead of having to [00:50:00] write CSS. Uh, but you can also o open up a very, I’ve spent a lot of time on the code mirror CSS editor in the web app. Uh, so, and it’s got live preview as you edit in the code mirror field. Um, so that’s pretty cool. And that’s built into marts. So if you go to style, um, generate style, it’ll load up a, a style generator for you. Anyway, there’s, there’s a ton. I’m not gonna go into all the details, but, uh, anyone listening who uses markdown for anything, especially if you want ability to export to like Word and epub and advanced PDF export, um, join the beta. Let me know what you think. Uh, help me squash bugs. But the other thing, every time I push a beta for review before the new bug reports come in, I’ve been putting time into a tool. Markdown Processor: Apex Brett: I’m calling [00:51:00] Apex and um, I haven’t publicly announced this one yet, but I probably will by the time this podcast comes out. Jeff: I mean, doesn’t this count? Brett: It, it does. I’m saying like this, this might be a, you hear you heard it here first kind of thing, um, but if you go to github.com/tt sc slash apex, um, I built a, uh, pure C markdown processor that combines syntax from cram down GitHub flavored markdown, multi markdown maku, um, common mark. And basically you can write syntax from any of those processors, including all of their special features, um, and in one document, and then use Apex in its unified mode, and it’ll just figure out what. All of your syntax is supposed to do. Um, so you can take, you can port documents from one platform to another [00:52:00] without worrying about how they’re gonna render. Um, if I can get any kind of adoption with Apex, it could solve a lot of problems. Um, I built it because I want to make it the default processor in marked ’cause right now, you, you have to choose, you know, cram Christina: Which one? Brett: mark and, and choosing one means you lose something in order to gain something. Um, so I wanted to build a universal one that brought together everything. And I added cool features from some extensions of other languages, such as if you have two lists in a row, normally in markdown, it’s gonna concatenate those into one list. Now you can put a carrot on a line between the two lists and it’ll break it into two lists. I also added support for a. An extension to cram down that lets you put double uh, carrots inside a table cell and [00:53:00] create a row band. So like a cell that, that expands it, you rows but doesn’t expand the rest of the row. Um, so you can do cell spans and row spans and it has a relaxed table version where you don’t have to have an alignment row, which is, uh, sometimes we just wanna make quickly table. You make two lines. You put some pipes in. This will, if there’s no alignment row, it will generate a table with just a table body and table data cells in no header. It also allows footers, you can add a footer to a table by using equals in the separator line. Um, it, it’s, Jeff: This is very civilized, Brett: it is. Christina: is amazing, Brett: So where Common Mark is extremely strict about things, um, apex is extremely permissive. Jeff: also itty bitty things like talk about the call out boxes from like Brett: oh yeah, it, it can handle call out syntax from Obsidian and Bear and Xcode Playgrounds. [00:54:00] Um, and it incorporates all of Mark’s syntax for like file includes and even renders like auto scroll pauses that work in marked and some other teleprompter situations. Um, it uses file ude syntax from multi markdown, like, which is just like a curly brace and, uh, marked, which is, uh, left like a double left, uh, angle bracket and then different. Brackets to surround a file name and it handles IA writer file inclusion where you just type a forward slash and then the name of a file and it automatically detects if that file is an image or source code or markdown text, and it will import it accordingly. And if it’s a CSV file, it’ll generate a table from it automatically. It’s, it’s kind of nuts. I, it’s kind of nuts. I could not have done this [00:55:00] without copilot. I, I am very thankful for copilot because my C skills are not, would not on their own, have been up to this task. I know enough to bug debug, but yeah, a lot of these features I got a big hand from copilot on. Jeff: This is also Brett. This is some serious Brett Terpstra. TURPs Hard Christina: Yeah, it is. I was gonna say, this is like Jeff: and also that’s right. Also, if your grandma ever wrote you a note and it, and though you couldn’t really read it, it really well, that renders perfectly Christina: Amazing. No, I was gonna say this is like, okay, so Apex is like the perfect name ’cause this is the apex of Brett. Jeff: Yes. Apex of Brett. Christina: That’s also that, that’s, that’s not an alternate episode title Apex of Brett. Because genuinely No, Brett, like I am, I am so stunned and impressed. I mean, you all, you always impressed me like you are the most impressive like developer that I, that I’ve ever known. But you, this is incredible. And, and this, I, I love this [00:56:00] because as you said, like common Mark is incredibly strict. This is incredibly permissive. But this is great. ’cause there are those scenarios where you might have like, I wanna use one feature from one thing or one from another, or I wanna combine things in various ways, or I don’t wanna have to think about it, you know? Brett: I aals, I forgot to mention I aals inline attribute list, which is a crammed down feature that lets you put curly brackets after like a paragraph and then a colon and then say, dot call out inside the curly brackets. And then when it renders the markdown, it creates that paragraph and adds class equals call out to the paragraph. Um, and in, in Cramon you can apply these to everything from list items to list to block quotes. Like you can do ’em for spans. You could like have one after, uh, link syntax and just apply, say dot external to a link. So the IAL syntax can add IDs classes and uh, arbitrary [00:57:00] attributes to any element in your markdown when it renders to HTML. And, uh, and Apex has first class support for I aals. Was really, that was, that Christina: that was really hard, Brett: I wrote it because I wanted, I wanted multi markdown, uh, for my prose writing, but I really missed the als. Christina: Yes. Okay. Because see, I run into this sort of thing too, right? Because like, this is a problem like that. I mean, it’s a very niche problem, um, that, that, you know, people who listen to this podcast probably are more familiar with than other types of people. But like, when you have to choose your markdown processor, which as you said, like Brett, like that can be a problem. Like, like with, with using Mark or anything else, you’re like, what am I giving up? What do I have? And, and like for me, because I started using mul, you know, markdown, um, uh, largely because of you, um, I think I was using it, I knew about it before you, but largely because of, of, of you, like multi markdown has always been like kind of my, or was historically my flavor of choice. It has since shifted to being [00:58:00] GitHub, labor bird markdown. But that’s just because the industry has taken that on, right? But there were, you know, certain things like in like, you know, multi markdown that work a certain way. And then yeah, there are things in crammed down. There are things in these other things in like, this is just, this is awesome. This Brett: It is, the whole thing is built on top of C mark, GFM, which is GitHub’s port of common mark with the GitHub flavored markdown Christina: Right. Brett: Um, and I built, like, I kept that as a sub-module, totally clean, and built all of this as extensions on top of Cmar, GFM, which, you know, so it has full compatibility with GitHub and with Common Merck by out, like outta the box. And then everything else is built on top of that. So it, uh, it covers, it covers all the bases. You’ll love it Christina: I’m so excited. No, this is awesome. And I Brett: blazing fast. It can render, I have a complex document that, that uses all of its features and it can render it in [00:59:00] 0.006 seconds. Christina: that’s awesome. Jeff: Awesome. Christina: That’s so cool. No, this is great. And yeah, I, and I think that honestly, like this is the sort of thing like if, yeah, if you can eventually get this to like be like the engine that powers like mark three, like, that’ll be really slick, right? Because then like, yeah, okay, I can take one document and then just, you know, kind of, you know, wi with, with the, you know, ha have, have the compatibility mode where you’re like, okay, the unified mode or whatever yo

It's the night before Thanksgiving and the Labyrinth is running on pure chaos, carbs, and zero show prep. With no show sheet and no plan (classic), the crew naturally drifts into the biggest online argument of the week: Variety's “100 Best Comedy Movies of All Time” list that has social media melting down. We break down their Top 10, share what they nailed, what they butchered, and what absolutely does not belong anywhere near a “Best Comedy Ever” list. From cult classics to Gen-X essentials, we get into which films still make us laugh and which ones make us go “…really?” Plus, a little pre-holiday small talk about what we're watching, what we're avoiding, and what movies we're forcing on unsuspecting family members this weekend. Then we wrap things up with our Staff Picks before sending you all off to eat too much and argue with relatives. Our upcoming Atlanta Pizza & Gyro Holiday Hootenanny, happening Sunday, December 7th from 1–4 PM in Conyers. No live show, no pressure — just hanging out with fellow Radios, sharing desserts, talking movies, and getting festive. Finally, we wrap up with Staff Picks:• Tim: The Chair Company• Dustin: Vanilla Sky 4K release.• Jeff: It's Florida, Man. Season 2• Lizzie: Stranger Things Season 5 KEEP IT CANON! #BestComedys, #comedymovies, #RadioLabyrinth, ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ Hosts: Tim Andrews, Jeff Leiboff, Dustin Lollar and Lizzie Bruce Jones Audio Podcast & YouTube Video Edited by Dustin Lollar ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀

Happy Thanksgiving you turkeys!  Enjoy an interview with the gin-u-wine heirs to the Blackball Ferry legacy, brought to you by Friends Of The Boaty Show. Skip to that at around 26:00, or dig in for  your dose of BS silly with an epic Old Boat Ad and Steph's stories from the largest outdoor hot tub park in North America... Spa Nordique!  Boaty Show hats are now available at www.theboatyshow.com/merch. We love you and are thankful for you, thanks for listening!    Jeff: Hi. If you enjoy the Boaty Show, you may enjoy my new audiobook. It's about AI and how we can live with it. You Teach The Machines: AI on Your Terms. Out wherever you get your audiobooks. By me, Jeff Pennington. [Music] Jeff: Welcome back listeners. I'm Jeff Pennington. I'm joined by my co-host... Steph: Stephanie Weiss. Jeff: Sipping on her coffee. It is Sunday, still morning. We, uh, we both have fires going. Mine's downstairs, Steph's is right in front of her in her living room. We're remote, and it's been a minute. We're not gonna talk about that. We're just gonna jump right back in. Right? Steph: Yeah, let's jump right in. Jeff: Jump right in. Like it's summer and we're going swimming again. Steph: Exactly. Exactly. Jeff: We have, uh, we have a show today. We're gonna do a segment on the Puget Sound ferry system—the history of. And we're gonna do, uh... what do we got? We got a "Old Boat Ad" from Jay. He was touring down in, uh, Whatchamacallit, Florida? Sarasota. He sent a picture of an alligator, which I will contend is Boaty. Steph: You want my opinion on that? Jeff: I want your opinion on that. Steph: I mean, it does... it does get from one place to the other. I don't know if they do that without getting wet, but yeah. I admit, boat adjacent. If you've seen an alligator, you wish you were in a boat. I mean, I can think of many ways that alligator is Boaty. Yes. Jeff: That was... that was excellent commentary. Thank you very much. Steph: You're welcome. Jeff: Wait, when you were down there last winter for the fundraising visit and you found that waterfront, that waterfront bar that served like drinks in buckets or something? Were there any alligators around then? Steph: Yeah. Well, yes. We were told there were alligators around, but I didn't see an alligator. But I did see lots and lots of signs about the alligators. Remember the signs? Jeff: In particular that it was alligator mating season. Steph: That's what it was! Yes. "Do not approach the mating alligator" or something super weird like that. Like... yes. That's right. Jeff: And then we did a whole... we did a whole, I mean we might have had a series of bits on alligator mating. And why you weren't supposed to go in the water when they were mating? Was it because it was gross? Because it's like, you know, it's the water that they're mating in and what's all that about? Or because you don't want like the throes of alligator mating ecstasy to like, end up with you getting like, you know, I don't know. Maybe they like bite each other in the midst of all that and you don't want to get confused... like get a body part confused. Steph: Right. Is there more traditional aggression? Right. Are they more aggressive when they're mating? These are questions. And then we had—I think we ended up really wondering whether that was a deep water thing or just a shoreline thing. Like if you're out in the middle, do you have to worry about that? Remember? We had this... this was a whole conversation. Jeff: I think... but I do think that it's ridiculous because... because like, if you see alligators whether they're mating or not, could we all just assume you don't go in the water? I just seems unnecessary, but... Jeff: And we'll count that as the only answer worth taking away because I only recall the questions we had at the time. Uh, and I don't recall any resolution of any of this. So, um, interesting though that Jay... winter-ish, maybe mating season or not. It looked like the picture was a solo... solo alligator. It was just, just an alligator. Unless maybe it was an alligator couple and you couldn't see the other alligator because that alligator was underwater? Steph: Like... that just occurred to me when you said... great minds think alike. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Steph: We should ask Jay. Jeff: We should ask Jay what was going on. Steph: Or not so great minds think alike. Jeff: All right. All right. So I think we should lead off with, uh, since we're talking about Jay and his trip through Florida—he played at least one show down there, I saw a picture of a backyard concert, looked lovely. Or an outdoor concert I shouldn't say, I don't know if it was backyard or not, looked lovely. And, uh, he sent a boat ad. And since this is his favorite segment, we're gonna do it. Steph: Mmm. Do it. [Music: Old Boat Ad Jingle] Jeff: It's... I can't... It's been so long that we've done this that when we were in the middle of doing it all the time, it seemed completely normal. And now when we're like... we're like four months away from doing it regularly or whatever, and it's like holy [bleep]. What the hell is this? That was a song about old boat ad copy from Jay and that was like... like, you know, I don't know, six months ago I was like, "Well yeah, of course Jay's gonna make a song saying 'Come on Jeff read those vintage boaty advertisements, give us some of them old boat ads.'" And that was like in the midst of it, it was like "Yeah fine." And now it's like, what the [bleep] is this? Oh my god! Steph: And people want... people are like, "Hey man when are you gonna start making that show again?" 'Cause they want this nonsense! Jeff: Oh god. That makes me so happy. It's good to be weird. Steph: It's good to be weird. Jeff: Okay. All that aside, notwithstanding. Let's do it. Okay. Jay found this ad in the wild. I don't know where it was. Um, I'm looking at the picture. It looks like it's in a frame. Maybe it was in like... I'm gonna say it was in a bathroom at a bar that he was at, or a restaurant perhaps, and it was above the urinal and he saw this. It was right in front of his face. "You can't blame a guy for boasting about his new Mercury. Not only pride of possession, but downright satisfaction comes with the ownership of a new Mercury Outboard Motor. When you put a Mercury on a boat, you are completely confident of quick, easy starting and effortless 'hold the course' steering. You know that there will be instant response to every touch of the throttle. Whether you want a burst of flashing speed or just a ripple of hushed power for the slowest possible trolling. The new Mercury with 'Full Jeweled Powerhead'—bears repeating—Full Jeweled, yes like bling bling jewels, Full Jeweled Powerhead gives you greater all-around mechanical efficiency and endurance never before known in an outboard motor. Yes, with your Mercury, you'll experience that pride of possession realized only by those who own the finest." Scrolling down through the ad... that was the main copy presented next to uh, a lovely couple in a, looks like a Penn Yan outboard skiff uh, with an outboard obviously on the back. Um, she of course is reclining. He of course is driving. Um, and he's holding his hand out like, "Ah! Oh my god this is great!" Like out to the side like, "Can you believe it?" "Of course, of course this is great." Um, he doesn't look so polished, he's kind of look got... he's got some bedhead and a t-shirt on. She looks put together. Um, so he must have a great personality. Steph: [Laughs] Jeff: So scrolling down there's like more details. Um, mostly for him because there's like cutaway diagrams and whatnot. So: "The Rocket. A six horsepower precision-built alternate firing twin with sparkling power that will plane a boat beautifully. Yet throttle down for... oh, yet throttle down to a hush for continuous trolling. Another exclusive Mercury first." This is more on the Full Jeweled Powerhead. "Mercury's Full Jeweled Powerhead. Mercury engineers have developed a method of using roller bearings on wrist pins, crank pins, and crank shaft. It results in reduction of mechanical friction, new power and smoothness, readier response to the throttle, many more months of service-free operation than any outboard with conventional plain bearings." "The Comet. A smooth running 3.2 horsepower single. The ideal family outboard. Just right for your car-top boat or the average rental boat. Mercury. Own a Mercury. Matchless and outboard excellence. Kiekhaefer Corporation, Cedarburg, Wisconsin. Outboard Motors. Portable Industrial Engines." There you go. Old Boat Ad. Steph: I have a lot of questions. And an observation. Jeff: Go. Steph: I love how the masthead of this ad if you will—I don't know if that's the right word for it—but it's a... it's a bubble, it's a like a word bubble coming from the guy in the boat, right? "You can't blame a guy for boasting about his new Mercury." I love like the... I love all of the like the um... how proud you should be. Like there's a lot of like, you know, you just... you're just going to boast and it's going to be like everyone's going to be impressed with you. There's going to be "Pride of Possession." Which I think is very interesting. And then what is going on with the jewels? I don't understand the jewels and why are we talking about jewels? There's no jewels in this. Jeff: There's roller bearings. Steph: What is that? And how is it like a jewel? Is it a ruby? Jeff: Well, my guess is given that this is setting the guy up to boast, if it was made out of ruby it would have said that, right? But I can say... Steph: I agree. Jeff: I can say that I don't know whether it's jeweled or made out of a jewel or not. But uh, different... there's different kinds of bearings. I know a little bit about bearings. Not a lot. Steph: Didn't we talk about bearings once before? Jeff: I'm sure we did. I'm sure we did. Steph: I like this sentence... I like this sentence a lot. "The Mercury engineers have developed a method of using roller bearings on wrist pins, crank pins, and crank shaft." What? Jeff: Uh, I don't know what a wrist pin is. I don't know what a crank... was it a wrist pin and a crank pin? Steph: Wrist pins and crank pins. Yeah. Things I didn't know about. But I love... I also love that they're getting into this level of detail right in the ad. This is the good old days. You know what I mean? Like this is... this is the least reductive ad I've ever seen. They're really... they're just... they hit you a little bit with the ego in the top and then they get right into the deep, deep details. I think this is lovely. It was... it was lovely to listen to. Jeff: So you got... I don't know what those pins are. The crank... I don't know. Let's not talk about why you've got bearings or what they're on, but ball bearings are balls. And... Steph: [Laughs silently] Jeff: ...you're laughing silently with our... Steph: Wrist bearings are wrists? Crank pins are cranks? I don't know. Jeff: No. We're not gonna talk about that stuff. We're just gonna talk about the bearings. So you got ball bearings which are spherical, okay? And then you've got roller bearings which are like a... in my mind it's a bearing that's made of a... it looks like a rolling pin, okay? And a ball bearing can... can bear weight while moving in all directions because it's a sphere. Steph: 360. Jeff: Yup. 360 times 360, right? In any direction. And then a roller bearing can bear... bear weight while moving just in like one direction back and forth. One plane I guess. And uh, I know roller bearings because there are conical roller bearings on boat trailers in the hubs of the boat trailer. Um, because the... and they're almost like a rolling pin shape except they're flared a little bit at, you know, toward one end so it's like a slight cone shape. And that's because the axle on your boat trailer has a slight taper to it. And so the wheel spinning on those bearings on that slightly tapered axle shaft has to be slightly... has to match that taper as it spins around and around and around. Um, now, that being said, going from, you know, roller bearings to "jeweled"? That's... that's what I'm talking about right there. Yup. Steph: Full Jeweled. Yeah. I mean I don't know. I guess... you know how I feel about this stuff. I kind of love things that I don't understand and there's a lot here I don't understand. And I think this is a lovely... so we've got two en... Is the Rocket one and the Comet is the other? They have space names. Amazing. Jeff: Yeah. And this was before... this might have been early space era. Yeah. Steph: Yeah. Early space race. Jeff: It look... I like that it's like, it's just a little boat. Nothing fancy. It's just a little tin can. Steph: Yeah. Rockin' out. Or having a great time. They're all proud... proud of themselves. Jeff: They mentioned "Car Top Boats" which was a... that was a big deal in the expansion of boating into the middle class. And... yeah. So Penn Yan, the boat manufacturer, my understanding is they hit it big for the first time with car-top boats. So Penn Yan Car Toppers, you'll still see those around sometimes. And that was like what pontoon boats and jet skis are doing... they did for boating then what pontoon boats and jet skis are doing now. Which is just making it way more accessible. Steph: I hear you. Jeff: Yeah. Steph: I hear you. "There it is. Just right for your car-top boat or the average rental boat." Got it. Yeah. Jeff: Yeah. Give me... give me more opportunity to get in the water without having to be a rich guy with my own dock or a yacht or anything like that. Steph: Mm-hm. Equal opportunity boating. Jeff: E... E... E-O-B. E-O-B-B. Equal Opportunity Boating Board. Okay. Enough of that. Steph: Yes. That's a... that's a worthy goal. Jeff: All right. We're gonna move on to our... our next topic. Which, you know what? Let's... let's step back. What have you been doing lately? Steph: Mmm. That's a great question. Um... Jeff: Have you gone anywhere? Have you gone anywhere fun? Steph: I did. I went to the... I went to the Spa Nordique in... in Chelsea, Quebec. Yes. I did do that. I was... show before the show we were chatting about this. Yes. I did go there with my friend Julie, my personal historian. And we had a wonderful time. Jeff: What is the Spa Nordique? Tell us... You walk up to the Spa Nordique. What's the experience? Steph: Okay. So real... so real quick. It's like... it's not like a spa like people usually think of a spa. It's a "thermal experience." It's got this whole Nordic vibe to it. Everything's made of wood. And it's a very large... it's many acres. And it has tons of different ways to get warm and cold in water. And also not in water. So, for example, there's like ten different outdoor hot tubs scattered all over the place. And there's like fifteen different kinds of saunas. There's like a earth sauna and a barrel sauna and a Russian sauna and a whatever. There's like... And then there's um, also like steam rooms. And there's cold plunges, which is not for me, but for other people. And there's places to eat and drink. And that's it. And you put on a robe, you leave your phone and all your [bleep] behind and you just wander around in this environment for the day. It's very affordable. Like sixty bucks for the whole day, like US. And it is very beautiful and it's very calming. And very relaxing. And it's delightful. And I would recommend it to everybody. So I've been there probably four or five times. And um, it's close, you know it's like two hours away from here. It's not far. And I think it's the largest spa in North America. But it's not like busy feeling. It's very calming and relaxing. Jeff: We're gonna... we're gonna back up to the very... one of the first two... two of the first words you said which was "thermal experience." Steph: Yeah. That's what they call it. Um... yeah, I don't know. I guess you're just getting in warm water. And then you're supposed to get in cold water cause it's good for you, but like I said, that's just not for me. But um... but you know like, it's like good for you. I don't know. You're supposed to like steam yourself and then get... We were... it was like snowing when we were there. There was actually a hail storm that happened. Like a full-on hail storm um, when we were sitting in one of the hot... my favorite hot tub which is like a hot spring kind of a thing. It's up at the top. And um, they totally just started hailing. And it looks like... like accumulating in our hair. It was very exciting. Jeff: Thankfully... thankfully accumulating in your hair and not like... they were baseball sized and like braining you and knocking you out. Steph: Right. No, they were not baseball sized. Which is good news. They were small and they were accumulating and it was very snow monkey. The whole experience is like just being a snow monkey for the day. That's it. That's how... Jeff: Can you make this up? Thermal experience. Be a snow mon... have a... have a thermal expe... we're gonna have to write an ad for this. Have a thermal experience as a... be a snow monkey for the day. Steph: I don't know why that's not their tagline. For... I don't know why not. It makes no sense. Jeff: So the other thing that grabbed me about... about this is you said you leave your phone behind. Which I think is probably healthy because that means that um, people aren't like nervous about somebody taking a picture of them when they, you know, take their robe off and get in the... in the tub or whatever. But also, dude, anything that people do where they leave their phones behind... those are becoming more and more valuable experiences as people just come to the conclusion that their phone makes them sick. And I had this experience recently... did... did an um... one of my book events at uh, the Poor Sethi headquarters in Brooklyn. In Gowanus. Uh, the Gowanus neighborhood of Brooklyn. And afterward, my... my daughter Mary Jane was there uh, and it was the first time she'd come to see one of these... these talks. The book talks. And uh, she brought a few of her friends who had moved to New York after graduating... they all graduated last spring. And they were so psyched. They're like, "Oh my god. Why does it feel so... so like novel to get together in person in a room and talk about something and talk to... with each other?" Because it was a... it ended up being a really interactive session. People were going back and forth to each other. And I started to fade a bit into the background which is what I go for with these... these events. They're kind of like group therapy community workshops about, you know, AI in your life. Not so much what AI is, but like how AI merges into your life. Anyway, at Spa Nordique, it's a thermal experience minus your phone. And you're there for the day or most of the day because you want to get... you want to get as much thermal experience as you can for your sixty dollars. So that's a day without your phone. That's freaking awesome. Steph: Yeah. And when I fir... when we first started going a few years ago, it was pretty much like "Don't bring your phone in here." Like it was like a kind of a rule. Now it's like um, you're allowed to bring your phone, but most people don't. So every now and then there'll be somebody with a phone. But the other funny thing is that... that you know, it's an adjustment going... like you said, you go for the whole day because it's... it's big, there's you know places to stop in and have a bite to eat or get a beverage or whatever. So you really do stay there for a while and you do really disengage from the sense of time. And it's funny how many times you're like, you know, think of things that normally you'd be looking up to your phone but you just don't do it cause you can't. But my... but one funny... one funny thing that happened when we got there was... um... when you first walk in on the left there's this very cool like... like experience. Like it's like a... like they do a Boreal Forest experience and they like um, they like wave branches around and like whatever. So that happens at certain times. So do we really want to do it? Because afterwards you were like rub salts all over your body and then there's like a flash dance bucket that you dump on yourself... you really... you have to be... obviously you need to get involved in something like that. So we were looking at the times. And then we were like... and like Julie and I together are like we're always like a little on the spazzy side anyway. Like it's always... things are always just awkward and weird and great. And like... so we were like, "Okay. So we can come back at one at eleven? Or maybe..." And then it's in like... it's like Canadian time so it's like 1300 and 1500 and we don't know what that means. It's complicated. So it's just... it was so hard. We were like talking about it and... and then this... and we were like, "How are we gonna come back? How are we gonna know when to come back because we don't have phones?" And then um, so then a nice young man who worked at the spa went by and we asked him... The other thing is just constant like language situation going on about wheth... you know we don't speak French. Everybody else does. So you know... and they're very sweet about it. But you know you always have to navigate the fact that you're speaking English. And so we in English ask this nice young man what time it is. And he paused. And I thought maybe it was just because he had to switch into English in his brain. I don't know why. But and he looked at us. And he was like, "Well, right now it's blah blah blah o'clock," and he like explained what time it was and um, the fact that it would be this time in an hour and a half we could come back and the thing would do it again. And then he kind of like looked at us and we were like, "Okay great thank you." And we left. But then later when we came back to actually do the experience, I... we were sitting in the sauna and I looked out and there is a clock so big. Like so big. It's hu... it's huge. It's like... it's like seven feet across. And it was right behind... right behind us when we had asked the guy what time it was! And we realized that like the long pause was like, "Should I just tell them that there's a clock right there? Or should I just be really nice about this and just answer the question and not point out the clock?" Like for sure he was like... are these people being... is this wrong? Are these people... Jeff: Are they... are they messing with me? Steph: ...messing with me? And and he's... he's Canadian but he's also French Canadian so like he he also like... because if you're not French Canadian and you're Canadian the stereotype is like you're just super nice and you're just gonna be super nice and... "Oh of course I'll just tell you what time it is." If you're French Canadian you might be like, "You freaking idiot. Like... I'm glad that you're up here... I'm glad that you're up here you know spending your money even though we can't freaking stand you because you're from America, but..." Steph: It was a lot... there were a lot... yes, there were a lot of components. I love the fact that I think a little bit he was just like, it seemed like if he was like, "Dude, literally a clock right there," then it just would have felt a little less polite. So he didn't say that. And then we had to discover the clock on our own. And um, it was amazing and hilarious. So that was, again back to the time thing. Jeff: I have more soapbox about about that. Um, I'll... I'll do it... I'll do it briefly and try not to go on um, and make it annoying. But uh, when you... you treat your watch as your... as your timepiece... I'm sorry. When you treat your phone as your timepiece, and then you don't have your phone, you end up lost. And you can't conceive that there might be a giant clock on the wall. Although maybe you can conceive of it and you just because you're having a nice day with some beverages and with Julie you don't con... conceive of it. But anyway, this is why I'm always on Instagram, I'm always posting uh, these Sheffield watches. Because if you put on a watch that's just a watch on your wrist and it's not an Apple Watch like all of a sudden you've got the ability to tell time without necessarily getting hit by a bunch of distractions which an Apple Watch is gonna do to you, which pulling... pulling out your phone is gonna do to you. And I'm... I'm huge on this for my kids. I'm like, "Hey like... if you're looking at your phone to tell the time you're like, I don't know, half the time you get pulled in because you see a notification. And now you're looking at your phone more. And now you're more te..." Oh wait, I said I wasn't gonna keep going on and get on my soapbox but... Steph: No, but I hear what you're saying. And at first I was kind of like... you know, I have a thing about Apple Watches because they were like they're meant to be like they don't want to make you... to help people avoid pulling out their phone all the time. But they actually just make people look super rude because you look like you're literally just like, "Um, I don't have ti... like every single time something goes off you're like, 'Uh, is this over? Is it time...?'" You know what I mean? So um, but I hadn't thought about that cause you're right. Whenever you look at your phone, of course there's gonna be notifications and all that's gonna pull you in. And that's... it's a very good point. So yes to watches. Agreed. Jeff: Yep. And I'm gonna I'm gonna bring this all home and make it all Boaty. Ready? All right. Spa Nordique is... Spa Nordique is Boaty because in Iceland outdoor hot spring fed pools and indoor became about because the rate of death by drowning amongst Icelandic fishermen was so high because it's the freaking North Sea. And the last thing you want to do there and there aren't any lakes, right? But the last thing you want to do there is learn how to swim in the ocean. But so that meant the entire population of Iceland whose entire existence was supported by fishing... nobody knew how to swim! And it became a... a public safety, public health, community health like anti-drowning initiative to start... to create public outdoor hot springs... public outdoor hot tubs so that people could learn to swim. Uh, and they sprang up all around the country and it became like part of the culture that you go there to learn to swim but then you also go there to hang out with each other. And um, that's all so that people in Iceland can go fishing, if they go in the drink uh, survive... have a great chance of survival. Boaty. Right? Um, also the... the watch thing. If you have to pull your phone out to tell what time it is while you're out in a boat, you might drop your phone on the deck. You might drop your phone in the drink or off the dock. You also might get distracted by your phone and you're... when you're driving a boat or you're out there in a boat, you probably shouldn't be distracted because A, that means it's taking away from the enjoyment and B, because you might run into something. So... Boaty. Boom. Done. Okay. Steph: So... so learn to swim in a hot spring and buy a watch. Boom. Jeff: And have thermal experiences. Steph: Oh. Jeff: Um... Missy just texted me and called. Um... they just got hit from behind on 76. They're all okay. The cops are there now. Uh oh. Steph: Whoa. Jeff: Hold on a sec. Let me... let me communicate. Steph: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Jeff: Everybody's okay. They don't need me to call or come pick them up. All right. Good. Well how about that? Steph: Do we have to move on? Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Steph: I have... I have a th... I have a... one of my... I'll just tell you and you can always like edit this out later if it's boring. But one of the things that's funny about it is when you're at the spa you can tell which are the hot pools and which are the cold pools because there's nobody in the cold ones, right? Um, but there was this one that Julie and I found and they had... they tell you like the temperatures and um, it was empty and we were walking around and it is... I think they said it was like 69 degrees or something like that? But there's nobody in it and it feels cold but then we realized, wait, that's like the river temperature. That's like the temperature of the river, right? In the summer. And then we got in this cold-ish thing and then it was... and that but we got used to it really quickly and it was really delightful and lovely. So we think of it as like that's like the river temperature pool and we... that's the only cold-ish pool that I get in. But it's very nice. Jeff: That... that's awesome because if the river temperature hits 69 degrees we're probably bitching about it cause it's too warm. Steph: Exactly. Exactly right. Jeff: That's awesome. All right. All right we're gonna move on. Uh, next segment. Um, we're gonna play an interview which was uh, listener submitted. So Rob uh, shared this. Some friends of his recorded an interview with the heirs, the descendants of the founder of the Black Ball Ferry Fleet in Puget Sound, Seattle. So we're gonna play that and then uh, I did a bunch of research on all this that we'll talk about after the interview. So here it is. [Interview Segment] I am standing here with the heirs of the Black Ball Line. Yeah. A couple of them. Was that heir or errors? Errors. Probably errors. Doug and Chris McMahon are standing here with you. Doug and Chris McMahon. And our great grandfather was Charles Peabody who came out west in 1885 and started the Alaska Steamship Company and then the Puget Sound Navigation. They were flying the Black Ball flag, which his family owned on the East Coast from 1803 forward. The Black Ball flag's been flying... Nice. ...and uh, his son... I have one on my travel trailer and every time I go camping we post our big full-size flag. Just... it still flies around the region. Yes. She's... she's still flying. And flies in Portland too. So... So and then the state bought it... the ferries in the 50s. And turns out they stopped making money. Started running in the red. Yeah. So. Yeah. So can you give me a brief history of why it's a Black Ball and with a white circle and red in the middle? Well so that's from the Coho. Right. And so the Coho was the last Black Ball ship that's flying. And so they licensed the flag but they added the white circle. And why did they choose that? Well because it was part of the whole ferry system. Okay. And when the Coho started, the Coho started right after... But the original Black Ball flag, which was a red flag with a black ball only, no white circle, was also researched as um, like some kind of a maritime victory award for ships. You know when they when they won a battle or did something good like cannon-neering or something, you know grenade throwing, they would be awarded the flags and they would fly the flag. So it's one of them. I don't recall exactly which one. And the original Black Ball ships that sailed from Brooklyn to uh, England and mainland Europe and back, um, had a Black Ball flag that was a swallowtail flag. So it wasn't a rectangle, it was swallowtail and a giant black ball on the main sail. And they were the first company... Rad. Like pirates. It does look like the hurricane warning flags too. People often catch us about that which is typically a square black in the center of the red. But in some regions it's a round circle just like Puget Sound Navigation's Black Ball flag. Just a couple specific places. They were the first shipping company to leave on a scheduled date. So they were... in the mid 1800s a ship would leave when it was full. Ass in seat. We're leaving at this time. That's right. And the Black Ball said "We're leaving on this date, empty or full." So they changed the industry then. Yeah. So when we were kids we used to get to ride in the wheelhouse every once in a while. Oh yeah. Or if we were with our Grandpa downtown and you'd see all these, you know, basically old men at the time in the 60s, right? On the... on the waterfront. He'd walk up to half of them because they all knew who each were. You know, they worked in shipping or the shipyards together. Yeah. Did he know Iver Haglund? Yes. They lived near one another up in West... up in West Seattle at Alki. Yeah so he absolutely knew Iver Haglund. We also have a relative who was a bank robber. So you know, they... they ran... Keep clam. Keep clam. One of his brothers... One of his brothers was a bank robber. Spent his lifetime in prison. Was on Alcatraz. That's awesome. Twice. So you know... Captains of Industry and... not. Yeah. Pioneers. Pioneers. Please introduce yourself again. My name's Doug McMahon. I'm from Portland, Oregon. And I'm Chris McMahon, Doug's brother. And where do you live? Uh, Des Moines, Washington. Right up here just across the way. Originally from Portland though. We're both from Portland. So nice to meet you. Thank you so much. [End of Interview Segment] Steph: Yeah. But that is... that is... that is very cool. And I think like the... the boat itself is really cool too, right? I remember we talked about the boat once a while ago. Jeff: Yeah. Well there's the... there's the Kalakala and then there's the Coho. The Kalakala is like this really wild uh, streamlined early streamlining Art Deco looking um... I don't know why I say Art Deco I don't really know what that means. Uh, ferry. And then um, and that's that thing's like I think it's just sitting there... maybe it already got broken up. Uh, but it was derelict for a long time. And then the Coho is still operating, which we'll get to. I'm gonna talk this through in a little bit. All right so. Steph: Okay. Jeff: Puget Sound Ferries. So Puget Sound is surrounds Seattle. It's like between Seattle and Victoria British Columbia and there's island after island after island. It's probably my second favorite watery place that I've been to um, after the St. Lawrence River because there's just so much going on. Um, I like islands and inlets and... Steph: It is beautiful. Jeff: Yep. So uh, this presented a big challenge for getting around back in the day. Uh, because if you wanted to get out to one of these islands cause there's timber out there or other resources or because you wanted to live out there, um, yeah you had to take a boat. And the shortest distance between two points on land on the quote mainland was sometimes a boat, not or by water, not necessarily over land. So uh, there were ferries that that got established. And the... there's like three big eras of ferries um, in in the Puget Sound. The first is the "Mosquito Fleet" era which was like 1850s to the 1920s. And it's when people really nailed down and commercialized the... the ferry as transportation infrastructure and the waterways are now how people get around, right? Um, and it helped develop the region. So um, like before the 1880s or so uh, it was all about steamboats. And the... the first steamships that got there cause you had to go basically either come from Asia or go around uh, the tip of South America back in the day before the Panama Canal to get to this place. So the Hudson Bay Company sent the SS Beaver in the 1830s which showed how uh, steam power... Steph: Beaver... Jeff: Yeah yeah... Steph: [Laughs] Thank god for the Canadians. All right. Jeff: The Hudson's Bay Company sent the SS Beaver like around the horn uh, even better... Steph: [Laughs] Jeff: In the 1830s. So uh, all of a sudden like you've got a steamboat that's like cruising around Puget Sound and it works out. Um, and the... the Americans, I think the Canadian... I don't know a lot about the Canadian history of the West Coast but the American history of the West Coast uh, was like, you know okay... 1849, 49ers... uh, the West like opened up in a... the West Coast opened up in a big way because of the Gold Rush. Um, but then timber became a huge deal. Probably more money made in timber than in uh, gold at that point. But the first American steamboat was the SS Fairy. Okay? Begins scheduled service in the 1850s and it linked uh, Olympia and Seattle. And roads were hammered. It was just mud, you know, nothing was paved. Uh, you definitely wanted to be on a... on a steamer. Maybe a sidewheeler like, you know, old-timey sidewheelers on the... on the Mississippi. Um, but it was really the only way that mail and your goods and s... goods and people got from town to town on the Puget Sound. So that was like early steamboats pre-1880s. And then in the 1880s uh, it really started to take off. So as the area developed, the... the something happened called the Mos... the Swarm, right? So the swarm of the Mosquito Fleet. Hundreds of small um, independent privately owned steamships pl... basically started creating a dense network and they were all competing with each other. Cause like all you needed was a boat with a steam engine and you could get going. Um, and there were some some famous boats during this time. Fleet... Mosquito Fleet boats. And this was not like, you know, so-and-so owned the Mosquito Fleet, it was just like "Hey there's a swarm of boats out there we're gonna call them and they're all small so we're gonna call them the Mosquito Fleet." Uh, and this is where the names get names get more lame. The SS Flyer, the SS Bailey Gatzert. Steph: Okay. I like SS Fairy. Direct. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and and then there's this huge opportunity and this dude named Charles Peabody who we heard about. We heard from his descendants uh, and we heard about the Black Ball uh, right? From his descendants just a minute ago. Charles Peabody. He shows up with this... this family history of the uh, Transatlantic Fleet where they innovated and um... this is something you're pretty psyched about which is like "Oh okay we're gonna have scheduled service instead of just waiting until we've got a full load and then we'll go. We're gonna leave at noon." Steph: Mm-hm. Yeah. Well I just think it's interesting like I... I remember we talked about this pr... I guess you said maybe with Rob a while ago. I find it fascinating the idea that you would get on a boat and then just wait for enough people to get on the boat to have to leave. That's... I could see how that would be disruptive to your day. Jeff: Yeah. Steph: Maybe hopefully those peop... they didn't have watches. But um, but they uh... but then yeah I guess I would appreciate the fact that you had some general idea of when it might leave. But I can see how the risk would be uh, you had to travel empty some so maybe you just had to... more reliable. It was a leap of faith, right? They were like, "If we make it more reliable then people will use it more." Right? Jeff: Yeah. And scheduled service for trains was probably a thing but, you know, when you've got this big boat you definitely don't want to... you don't want to go empty. And so I can see the commercial interest in like a full boat being there but also like then you're leaving out a lot of people who were like "I don't want to sit around and wait for this." Um, anyway. I don't know. Charles Peabody. Uh, so he... he's a descendant of the people that started the Black Ball Fleet way back in the early early 1800s. He shows up out there and starts buying up the swarm. Um, he creates the Puget Sound Navigation Company, PSNC, in 1898. And then just starts buying up competing Mosquito Fleet companies. Like he bought up the White Collar Line. Steph: Mmm. Jeff: Don't know why it's called White Collar Line. Um, going to guess it was fancy. Uh, and eventually becomes the... the biggest operator. Steph: You said fancy? Jeff: Fancy. Steph: Okay. Jeff: And then what Peabody did, based... based on this research is he figured out that the automobile was gonna be a threat, okay? To... to the ferry fleet because now you've got cars. People buy cars, they want the roads to get better so that they can drive their cars. The roads do get better so more people get cars to drive on those roads. So then he figures out that this is a threat and starts converting his ferries to carry cars. And the rest of the Mosquito Fleet, many of whom he'd bought up in the first place, but the rest of the Mosquito Fleet that hadn't been acquired by the Puget Sound Navigation Company... they're not... they're not as like strategic as he is. They don't start converting their boats to carry cars... he does. So they die off. No more. Right? So now he's got a monopoly. And uh, he officially at... at this point adopts the Black Ball Line as its name. Um, and the flag that we heard about, the red and black ball uh, flag in the in the late 20s. Um, coincidentally also around the time of Prohibition and tons and tons of smuggling of da booze from Canada into the US. I am not... I'm not accusing the Black Ball Line of being involved in smuggling um, but it was going on. And uh, there was succession also in the family. Alexander takes over um, from his dad uh, and uh, they really nail down... And then ah this is where... so then they launch the Kalakala. K-A-L-A-K-A-L-A. Kalakala in 1935. This is the streamlined Art Deco ferry that uh, that we we talked about last time and our friends Rob and Jen and Byron uh, actually went out and checked out um, while it was still floating. And it's just like really cool. Looks like um, you know uh, like early streamlined locomotives and trains. That kind of thing with like really neat windows and and that sort of thing. Um, but that becomes the international symbol of the fleet. Everybody's super psyched about it. Um, so that was like 20s, 30s. And then World War II hits. And um, labor organizing really took off around World War II. Uh, and the ferry workers started unionizing and uh, probably pushing back on on pay and working conditions and hours and stuff. And this monopoly uh, had, you know... being a monopoly is great unless there's a strike. And then your... you know your workers strike and your boats aren't running and people are like "Well [bleep], I gotta get around." So now maybe they figure out that they don't have to take the ferry. Take their car on the ferry, take their truck on the ferry and they um... they go elsewhere and that starts to... to put pressure on the ferry. But also like if you've got to raise wages, um, now your... your margins are lower. Blah blah blah. So um, ultimately uh, the... you know the... there was a... a wartime um, freeze in wages and operations but the... the unions um, really pushed for better wages which put a bunch of strain on the... on the company. And the... the only way that... that the Peabodys could make this all work was uh, with a big fare increase. So they um... pushed for a 30% fare increase to cover their costs. Um, and the... they had... it had gotten to the point where they were being regulated at this point because it was, you know, privately operated transportation infrastructure that everybody relied on. Um, so they were regulated and the state said "Nope." So like, you know, a public utility commission has to negotiate rate increases with their state regulator. So same thing happened here. Um, and Peabody says "Give us 30% more." State says "Nope." And Peabody says "All right, F you." They shut it all down. They shut it all down. And that stranded uh, like all the commuters. And people were super pissed at them for shutting it down. Um, which then turned it into a political moment. And uh, the... you know people, businesses said "Take over this... this as an essential utility." And that's when uh, Washington State purchased all this stuff from... all the ferries and the whole system from the uh, the Peabodys. From the Black Ball Line. And that created the Washington State Ferry System. And as you heard in the... in the um, interview, uh, was running... ended up running at a loss. I don't know if it still does, it may as... as a lot of public transit infrastructure does. Um, but the state bought out the Black Ball Line in... in 51. And um, they bought it out for 4.9 million dollars which in like "today dollars" is still not even that much I don't think for, you know, 16 ships, 20 terminals uh, which is what it was at the time. Um, but anyway they buy it out and start operating on... in June of 51. And uh, the state said "Hey we're just gonna do this until we build all the bridges everywhere." Uh, which didn't really happen. Um, and the Washington State Ferry uh, system just change... they basically uh, did away with the Black Ball livery. Which is like the Boaty way of saying how you paint [bleep]. Um, what colors. Um, so they went from orange to green. Uh, but the... the company, Captain Peabody, Alexander, um, and his family retained the route... the international route between... between Seattle and Victoria. And that is the MV Coho which still runs uh, and it's still the Black Ball Ferry Line. And it um... basically gives you a through line from like the original Transatlantic Fleet that did scheduled service for the first time ever um, and, you know... you're on board or not we're leaving at noon. Through line from like the early early 1800s all the way through to today. The Black Ball line has been continuously running or the Black Ball uh... the... Black Ball family or I'm sorry the Black Ball line has been continuously running cause the Coho is still going. Was launched in 59 but it uh... it's still the um... it's still a major private auto ferry line in the region. And international. So goes back and forth to Canada. Which is what you did when you went to the Hot Springs as well. Steph: Um, yeah. I love that. I love that it's still running. I didn't realize that. Jeff: Yeah. The Coho. I... I was out there for work years ago and I thought about taking um, taking the ferry up to Victoria. There's a high speed... and I don't think it's the Coho. There's a high speed ferry that runs also. Um, it may even go further than Victoria but uh, cause I was like "Oh man it'd be pretty cool to do a day trip to just like take the ferry from Seattle up through the Sound to, you know, wherever. Like get off get a... get some poutine and then come back." Although it's the West Coast I don't know if poutine... I don't know if poutine made it out there or maybe they call it something else. I love ferries. Steph: I do too. And I... I've actually been to that part of the world only one time, but I was... I went to a wedding on Vashon Island. And then um, so yeah I was to... completely taken with how watery and boaty it was and we totally took a ferry there and it was amazing and I loved it. And yes, I agree. Ferries are fun and um, that's some... that's some very cool history. I like it. Jeff: Yeah. Well we're gonna... we're gonna wrap up now. Um, because uh... I just got a call and a text from my wife and she... Steph: Yeah. Jeff: She and Mary Jane... so Missy and Mary Jane got rear-ended. I think Toby too. Got rear-ended on the highway. And uh, they don't need a ride but just in case they do I want to wrap it up. Everybody's okay. Nobody got hurt. Steph: Yeah. Sounds good. Good. Good. Jeff: Yeah. Um, but couple things. One, I am currently wearing a Boaty Show hat. And uh, the hot admin, the lovely Melissa, set up a freaking e-commerce website so that you listeners if you would like can buy a Boaty Show hat and we will ship it to you. We don't really make any money on this. It's... it's all uh, basically break-even. Um, but that can be found at thebodyshow.com/merch. M-E-R-C-H. Merch. Thebodyshow.com/merch. They're... I'm very excited because I've got a big head and we have an extra large hat. Which means that if you usually put like the... the little snappy back thing on like the last two nubbins, the snap back on the last two nubbins... on the XL Boaty Show hat you get... you get to at least on my head you get five nubbins. You can snap five hat nubbins. And it... and it doesn't look like you're cramming a tiny hat on top of your big head. So that's exciting. Uh, there's... there's Heather Grey, Dark Grey, and Navy Blue. And uh, would love it if you guys ordered some um, because uh... it's... it's a cool hat. It's got the boat tractor on it. Steph: Mm-hm. It's the holiday season. Time to go buy some merch for your friends and families. Everybody needs a Boaty Show hat. Jeff: Yeah. Also these were made by Bolt Printing who who we talked uh, about on the show once upon a time. Uh, they're really cool people and... Steph: You love them. Jeff: I do. I do. And they made a video of the hats getting made that I'll I'll try and repost. Um, and the other thing is that my book is out. So is the audiobook. So You Teach The Machines: AI on Your Terms is available on everywhere you get your audiobooks. Uh, Audible, Amazon, Apple, and then like 35 others. So if you don't mind listening to my voice, uh, I read the book and people are finding it really helpful. And uh, you can support the show and us doing this silly stuff by buying hats and checking out the book. We are gonna wrap it up. Steph: And next time we get to do Photo of the Week. Jeff: Oh yes! Yes. We're bringing back Photo of the Week next time. Um, there have been a bunch of submissions while we've been on our hiatus and uh, we can't wait. So like next week will probably mostly be Photo of the Week discussions. Jeff & Steph: [Singing together] Yo ho ho, that's it for the Boaty Show. Pack the cooler, grab the lines, let's go go go. Yo ho ho... Jeff: That's it for the Boaty Show. Boom we are out. Say bye-bye Stephanie. Steph: Bye-bye Stephanie.  

Unity isn't just a buzzword. It's the foundation for business growth and community impact. In this episode of Building Texas Business, I sit down with Jeff Williams, president of Graham Associates, to talk about how bringing people together drives both engineering success and civic transformation. Working with his firm who design iconic Texas projects including AT&T Stadium and Southlake Town Square, and during his three terms as Arlington mayor, he demonstrats how unity principles scale from boardroom to city hall. Jeff shares his approach to bridging generational divides through Friday "High Five" meetings that transformed skeptical baby boomers and millennials into collaborative teammates. His engineering firm rebuilt their office culture post-COVID by creating collaboration spaces and displaying core values throughout their workspace, showing employees they're not just designing roads but contributing to state-of-the-art hospitals. When people understand their larger purpose, engagement naturally follows. His upcoming book "The Unity Blueprint" captures lessons from leading Arlington through the pandemic faster than any other U.S. city, according to NYU research, and emphasizes that modern leadership requires teaching over commanding, with trust and value as non-negotiables for today's workforce. Success comes from transforming "my plan" into "our plan" through genuine input and buy-in, whether you're managing engineers or running a city. This conversation reveals how Texas businesses thrive by embracing partnerships over politics, with Jeff's $8 million citywide rideshare solution versus $50 million per mile for light rail proving that innovation beats tradition when unity guides decisions. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Discover how weekly "High Five" meetings turned skeptical senior engineers into collaboration champions, bridging baby boomers and millennials Jeff details how Arlington saved millions by implementing $8 million annual autonomous rideshare instead of $50 million per mile light rail Learn why being the first U.S. city to run autonomous shuttles attracted Uber, Lyft, and Via to compete for Arlington's contract Hear how post-COVID office renovations with collaboration spaces and visible core values brought remote workers back to rebuild culture Jeff shares how a devastating referendum loss taught him that expertise means nothing if political consultants silence your voice Understand why the Medal of Honor Museum chose Arlington over Washington D.C.—Texas builds in years what takes decades elsewhere LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Graham Associates GUESTS Jeff WilliamsAbout Jeff TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you'll meet Jeff Williams, CEO of Graham Associates and former mayor of Arlington, Texas. Jeff stresses the power of creating unity within a company to foster a strong culture and how training and developing your people it's critical to success. Jeff, I want to thank you for taking the time and welcome to Building Texas Business. It's great to be here. Jeff: Chris, it's always great to talk about Texas and especially business. Chris: Yes. So let's start with just introducing yourself and tell us what it is you do. What's your company known for? Jeff: Well, I own a civil engineering firm and we build communities. We design public infrastructure, highways, roads, utilities, but we also do sports facilities, churches, schools there. We've done a lot of different things. Some of our projects you might recognize in at and t Stadium, we were the civil engineers for it. And yes, we did work with the Jones family and we also also know Chris: Is Jerry World, right? Jeff: Absolutely. And it was an exciting project to work on and then it's amazing how well it's aged and still the top special event center here in the country. But then we've had South Lake Town Square, which was kind of the granddaddy of all of the town centers that's here and a really special place. Nebraska Furniture Mark. We got to work for Warren Buffett there and doing his grand scape development here in the Metroplex. But then we've also, we have Prestonwood Baptist Church, which one of the largest churches in the Southwest. So rewarding to be able to do that. And then we've got Westlake Academy, actually Westlake, Texas. We actually got to start from scratch there. It was a town that we got in on the very beginning. They had one subdivision and now they've got Fidelity's headquarters. Schwab is there, Deloitte, and then Viro, one of the most upscale developments in the state of Texas. So those are some of the fun projects that we've gotten to do. I think it's very rewarding. Chris: Yeah, no, I mean it sounds not just fun but impactful and kind of be able to look around and see how you've changed the landscape of your community, Jeff: Chris. That is so, so true. There's nothing better than to be able to take your family and friends to be able to show them what you've done, but even more importantly, to actually be at one of your projects and see people coming together and families enjoying a special place that we created. And of course that moves to unity and that's one of the things that I have grown to value more than anything else is bringing people together to make a difference. That's great. Well, Chris: We have the benefit here at Warrior Miller represent a lot of very successful real estate developers. And so I think I know our real estate team feels the same way is right working with the client to bring projects like that together and being able to, the benefit of doing the legal work for that and just see to go by years later and go, we worked on that project or that park or that building or that community center is really rewarding stuff. Jeff: Really is the mission of our company is to be an integral partner in building communities. Chris: I like that. So let's talk a little, I mean, what was the inspiration? Obviously you're engineer I guess by education, but what's been the inspiration for you to stay in this industry and build the company that you've Jeff: Built? Well, we just hit it. I feel like it's such an important part of being able to build these communities for people to live, work and play in. And then that actually led me to being actually recruited to run for mayor here in Arlington and to serve there. I served three terms as mayor. That's very unusual for engineers to move into that. I didn't realize it until after I was elected and there aren't many engineers that do that. But however, as an engineer, we have designed public infrastructure. We have to sell our projects to the citizens so many times we also understand schedules and budgets and being able to work through that. And so it really was a great fit for me there, although it's very challenging and people go, well, why would you do that? Well, the reason we'd do it, it's rewarding. It's the most rewarding job I've ever had. But it also is the hardest because you're working with so many different people. But it really increased my awareness that the last thing we need to be doing is to be having dissension and conflict all the time. Instead, we need to be bringing people together to make a difference and actually work on projects that can actually, people can get behind and have passion and discover their purpose. And then of course, the results of that have been actually to forge friendships. Chris: So I guess, how have you taken some of those lessons and lessons along the way and incorporated them into the company at Graham Associates to kind of build the team there? Jeff: Well, as I came out of serving as mayor, I ended my last term in 2021. We'd come out of the pandemic. There still were the lingering effects of it. People wanted to work from home. So however, in our business, in so many businesses, teamwork is a big part of what we need. Chris: Absolutely. Jeff: I read everything I could get ahold of because we are at the beginning of a technology revolution, but we also have societal changes that happen every few months or perhaps even sometimes monthly. So I needed to understand the young people, but also needed to figure out how to create an atmosphere to where our people wanted to be. So literally our offices, we redid everything in the way of so that we could be a very inviting place that our employees could be proud of, but also that our clients would want to come because those face-to-face meetings are still important. And then part of that impact too was that we try to create special places for collaboration and we have several collaboration rooms there. And so that was a key. But also in our Collins areas, we wanted to be uplifting. So in our kitchens we have those stocked, but we also put up positive phrases there that really epitomize our core values and we have our core values that our employees actually fed into. They're displayed everywhere. But then I ran into a roadblock because our older engineers said, Hey, why are we doing all of this? And then we started in on doing a Friday staff meeting where everyone came together and we call it our high five meeting, an opportunity for us to encourage each other and to be able to share some of the stories that happened that week. And man, my older engineer said, man, that's a whole hour of billable time that we could be having. And they didn't like it at all for the first couple of months. And then magic started happening. They started getting to know each other better. And so I had millennials getting along with the older baby boomers, they're an understanding each other and now they all look forward to it. And we do soft skill training and IT team building there also. But it is a time that we all look forward to and it built that camaraderie because we need teamwork and it helps to get them there. And so then I still allow my people to work one day a week at all. But then our project managers actually make the decision on how much more if someone wants to work from home more because it depends on the project and what we've got going, but yet our team understands now that they've got to be able to build those relationships. Well, I like what you pointed Chris: Out there is it's not a one size fits all game. You got to be flexible and listen. And I think as leaders, if you can communicate that so that your employees understand that they'll understand when you can't be as flexible as maybe they would like because the circumstances don't warrant that. But then when you can, you allow it, Jeff: Chris. That is so true, and you've got to value people and be able to listen to them. No longer can a manager when they ask you, why are we doing something? Because you can't say because I said so. Chris: No, Jeff: It's Chris: Because it's the way we've always done it. Jeff: Oh yes, that's another great line. That is a dinosaur that can't act more. But it's actually exciting to be able to share with our people why we're doing things and to be able to understand the big picture of that, Hey, this isn't that You're just designing a roadway to a hospital. You are contributing to the overall wellbeing of actually being a part of the team that constructs a state-of-the-art hospital that, Chris: Well, I think the other thing you've discovered, we see it here. It was certainly part of our culture before COVID and it's become an important part post COVID to regain connection. And that's getting people together in community, in the office, lunches, happy hours, breakfast, whatever, because then you use the word magic started to happen. I think that's right, that as we gain connection with our coworkers, that helps with retention, it helps with collaboration because we get to know each other a little better. Especially important I think not just in a post COVID world, but in the multi-generational office that we're dealing with. Right? Four and five generations in one office together don't necessarily see things eye to eye, but if you get to know somebody, you can break those barriers. Jeff: That's right. And that leads to something else that I've discovered. Even if you're an introvert and you think you don't need other people, it is amazing because God made us to live in community. And when you're coming together and aligning people with a purpose and you are working together, suddenly those barriers get broken down. And it doesn't matter the age difference, the color of your skin, all of those differences disappear because you're working together to make a difference. And suddenly, again, I'll mention you end up with friendships that are forged. In fact, if you think about it, probably your best friends are the ones that you worked on a project with. It might be for school, for church or in your work. And certainly it's awesome to be able to forge great friendships at your workplace. Chris: I love it. We haven't used the word really much, but it sounds like you're defining the culture that you're trying to build and nurture there. How would you describe the culture and anything else other than these kind of high five meetings and such that you're doing to try to help nurture the culture? Jeff: Well, I think the other part to round it out is that we have got to be focused on teaching and training. I think the culture has really got to be a teaching atmosphere. People don't respond to that type A manager that is forceful and raises their voice and all of that. It's more they've got to see that you value them, each one of these employees do. But then also it's not just in how you truth them. You need to take action in teaching and training them and show them how they are going to be able to help themselves and help the team overall by learning. And then of course, we also have to create that accountability because we aren't professional teachers. In fact, no matter what business we're in, most of us are not professional teachers. So we need our employees to be willing to ask questions and to be willing to be vulnerable, say, I really don't understand this. I need help on this. And that's where it's got to be a two-way street, but yet you cannot. You got to really foster that culture where they are willing to ask questions and to let you know that they don't know it there. But then we have the ability to focus in on what do they not understand and be able to get that training to help fill in that hole. Chris: Yeah, that's so important. So true. Let's just talk a little bit about technology and innovation. What are some of the things that you see and that you've tried to incorporate there from an innovative way of doing your work or how technology's changing the trends of how you go about your work? Jeff: Well, Chris, this is one of my favorite topics, and of course no surprise with me being an engineer, but we are really at the beginning of a technology revolution. In fact, I'll never forget, a few years ago I heard the head of IBM technology that was actually out of Belgium, and he said exactly that We are at the beginning of a technology revolution like the world has never seen, and we are going to see more change than we have ever experienced. Well, there is a little bit of a problem because most people don't like change. And yet we have got to be willing to adapt to that. And I challenge our engineers throughout when I'm speaking to engineering groups. So you guys have got to take the lead in that we, engineers are typically very conservative. They find a great way to do something or they want to stick with it. But however, because of new technology, we've got to be researching that technology. We've got to be looking to see what technology is good, what is not. We even need to be helping in the regulation of it. And so consequently, I'll say this, we have got to be researching AI and software that is coming out constantly. I have two people dedicated to that. Larger firms probably have whole departments that are dedicated because we have an opportunity to be able to do things better faster, but we've got to be able to be competitive. I don't want to wake up one day and all my competitors are being able to do things 30% cheaper than I can and beating my price point and actually able to serve the clients better. And I do equate it to when computers really came online in the eighties, we were all worried about, well, are we going to have a job? Oh, well. And then others would say, well, we're only going to work three days a week now because of computers. No, we saw ourselves become more productive and we will become more productive with AI and other technologies, but also even with the technology being able to incorporate how you use it. I'll give you an example of that. When I was serving as mayor, we were the first city in America to run an autonomous shuttle, a driverless shuttle there on a public streets. And it was amazing at work that we were all scared of it, but we actually challenged our city staff to be looking at new technologies that we could use to be able for transportation. And we said, Hey, let's open up our city as a laboratory. And so consequently, our staff came up with the idea that we really could have Uber and Lyft type process and actually have driverless shuttles that are seven passenger vans that could be going out throughout our city in a very cost effective way. That'd be much cheaper than high speed rail or light rail there. Of course, high speed rail is still a ways off. But anyway, long story short, we went out and did an RFQ, Uber, Lyft and a accompanied by the name of Via all proposed on it. And we ended up being the first city in America to implement technology rideshare and then added the autonomous vehicle to it. And now cities across America are doing that. And instead of paying 50 million a mile for light rail, we are end up calling actually covering our whole city 99 square miles for $8 million a year. It's an amazing thing and very cost effective. Everybody's business. We've got to look at how can we do things different and more cost effective utilizing the technology. Chris: Let's talk about a corollary to that. What are some of the trends you're seeing in your industry that we should be prepared for and maybe how is being based in Texas influencing those trends? Jeff: Well, it's growth, Chris. The growth is a big change in our business there because in growth is so big and so consequently the biggest resource we need or people, it's not, we can all buy our software, we can all buy our computers, but it's really about people. Every business I talk to, it's all about finding those people and then yet we've got to be willing to train them up there. And of course, really when you're hiring experienced people, many times that's just a stop gap because they don't quite fit what you need. So I think the big change that we're seeing trend that businesses are needing to train their workforce up and do that as fast as you can because we need more people to be able to fill those positions. So again, we've got to become teachers, we've got to be able to be efficient. And then I still think one of the biggest challenges in business and really in fact in America is that we have so much dissension. People have a tough time getting along with each other. Arguments come up and then suddenly that cancel culture comes and there's no forgiveness. It's I'm done with you. And that is a poison for business there. And none of us as managers want to spend all our time in conflict resolution. So to that, right? Chris: One of the things I talk about a lot is that if we can remember to give grace in the business world, we do have a personal life a lot, but for some reason we get into, then we think we switch and put the corporate hat on or business hat on and we kind of forget that. I think that is an important aspect to remember, to your point, it helps diffuse conflict. We're imperfect human beings. And so learning to have accountability but also with a touch of grace can help resolve conflict, avoid conflict mitigated in the workplace. Jeff: That's so true. Chris. I had an interesting thing happen along these same lines as New York University actually studied Arlington when I was mayor, and they got attracted initially that we had become the sports capital of the nation, but yet they looked at how we did things. And I needed help as a mayor, so I sought out people. I needed experts, I needed people that would work. I needed input from our citizens. And so we ended up working together to accomplish a lot of things. We had to work to keep the Texas Rangers here in town. There were a lot of other cities that wanted to move them out of our community. We also had not been bringing in jobs there. And in 2014, the year before I came in, the big headlines read that the DFW Metropolitan area had created more jobs in any other metropolitan area in the country, and Arlington was not doing that. And so we had to jumpstart that economy and then yet I needed to unite our leaders and we did that. And throughout the pandemic and so forth, New York University studied us and they believed we came out of the pandemic quicker than any other city in America, both physically and economically. And so they encouraged me to write a book on Unity and how you did it. And they also then took it a step further and they went to Forbes and I ended up signing a book contract with Forbes and were releasing the Unity Blueprint on September the ninth. That really is that plan. Therefore being able to bring people together in both your personal life, your life, and then even our civic involvement and so forth there. And that has been a big change for me really since I came into office. I always valued people, but now getting it, taking it to the next step of unity because how much time is wasted there when your employees are fighting with each other or arguing and then it's a lasting effect. They never work together as well. And so working and creating that culture and actually adding forgiveness to your core value I think is a very important thing. But then also getting people to adopt character values themselves, to have a foundation that they can work with. And when you see people working to be a person of character, there can be forgiveness, but there's not much room for forgiveness when it's constantly on the other person. It's a tough deal. Right. Well, Chris: I didn't realize about the book. That sounds, I'm excited to see it and read it, and I don't know if there's anything that kind of comes out of that as a tidbit that you might be able to share with us now the listeners about maybe obviously the lessons you've learned along the way, kind of that something that you've incorporated into your kind of leadership style that has helped foster unity within the organizations you've run. Jeff: Always amazed when a person gets appointed president of his company or gets elected to a position and many times they don't have a plan. And then in addition to that, if they do have a plan, many times they didn't get any input on it. They literally concocted a plan of their own versus the opportunity for you to work on a vision and a plan after you have researched it, and then you take it to your employees and get feedback from them. And suddenly that plan transforms from your plan to our plan. And it's amazing when you get that buy-in, how it can really work together, and you're not having to sell your plan all the time. They're doing it for you, and it makes all the difference. I'm very excited about being able to move out there around the country and pushing towards unity as a matter of fact, and our book has already reached the number one new release by Amazon. They're in both business and Christian leadership, so I'm pumped about that. That's awesome. Congratulations. But we're not perfect people. We all need the space, but if you're employees can see that you're working towards it, if your fellow employees can see you are working towards being that person of character and wanting to do it. Now, we landed in the middle of honor museum here in Arlington there. We were in a 20 city competition for that, and it's probably one of the greatest things I've ever been involved in. We had a six month journey there and competing against the other cities and it was a national museum. And you go, well, why didn't they go to Washington dc? Well, the reason they didn't is going to take 20 years to get it built. And we in Texas here, can get things built quick, can't we? Right. You've got great contractors, architects, engineers to make that happen. And real estate people, Chris real estate people, government. Chris: That wants to get stuff done, right? That's right. Yeah. Rather than being an impediment to getting stuff done. Jeff: Well, the middle of honor museum or the Medal of Honor recipients that were leading that recognize that very thing, they also saw that we are the center of patriotism and we can get things done. We have a track record do it. Chris: I had there's, we could do a whole episode I think just on that museum. I had the privilege, Texas Capital Bank did a little Texas tour and they hosted something here in Houston that I was invited to all about the museum, what it is, how it came about. Very unique, very special, very proud that it's going to be in Texas and hopefully more people will take time to get to know what this is all about and then go visit it once it opens. Jeff: Well, the thing that surprised me is when I actually visited with these Living Medal of Honor recipients, and each one of them has pledged to spend the rest of their life making more of a difference there. And what they're doing is they are pushing character values, integrity, sacrifice, courage, commitment, citizenship and patriotism. Well, that's what all of us need. And currently the state board of education here in Texas has adopted a two week curriculum that our students will study in school and then they'll be able to take a field trip to the museum or a virtual field trip. And I think that's gotten everybody excited that that is happening. And then of course, it's not just the youth, our adults too. So there are adult programs that are going on, but it had me reassess my core values. It had me to, I really wanted to reassess my character values and so forth. And in business it always starts with you got to do what you say you're going to do. But then I had an interesting thing happen and I pretty well knew the answer when I asked it, but I was speaking to 20 Chick-fil-A managers, and of course Chick-fil-A is number one in service, aren't they? Chris: Right? Jeff: I asked them, I said, guys, what are you looking for and you're leader? And they immediately spoke up and they said, we are looking for a leader that we can trust, and then we're looking for a leader that values us. I think that's where it starts for us then in Texas. We know that we get that right and we believe in partnerships and collaboration, and I think that separates us from so many other places in the country. Chris: So kind of tagging on with leadership, lots of theories and about how to become a leader, how to grow as a leader. I think you hit it on the nail on the head when you said you got to be a man of your word or a person of your word. Do what you say you're going to do when you say you're going to do it. It's kind of a foundational element, but I know from my own personal experience and talking to others, we learn a lot as leaders from mistakes we've made. And I'm just curious to know if you could share one of those rather than a mistake. I call it a learning moment where it didn't go as planned, but you learned from that and from that it actually probably accelerated your leadership skills because of it. Jeff: Yes, no doubt about it. That's very easy for me to say because one of the biggest disappointments I had in my career is we had worked on a Johnson Creek Greenway here in Arlington. It was a nine mile creek beautiful creek, and we also were going to be doing a river walk in the entertainment district around those stadiums and so forth. And we had done all the preliminary planning there. It got through the core of engineers, and we also had held major charettes. We were winning awards from all over the country. I was actually traveling and speaking on that. I had an incredible partner with me, a guy by the name of Jim Richards. I loved working with our team and I thought, this is what I'm going to be doing the next 10 years. But however, the city had to pass a sales tax selection to fund the project, and they hired a political consultant that came in and said, Hey, I think you guys ought to attach an arts referendum on this. The Johnson Creek project is so popular, the Riverwalk will go, let's attach that to it. And then there was one other thing that came in that was so unique, and that was that some of our people had actually gotten a agreement with Smithsonian to build a branch museum on this Johnson Creek river wall. And so they put that on the agenda there for an election, but the political consultants said, we don't want anybody doing anything. They said, we do not want Jeff Williams and my other partner going out and speaking, what if you make a mistake and you say the wrong thing or you stir people up? And then they also did not really realize that our refer referendum was very popular. We lost that election by a few hundred loaves. It was one of the most devastating things. And it's taken 20 years. A lot of it's been And it changed my whole career there because I had to study why did this happen? How did it happen? And I said, I have got to learn about how to handle sales tax and bond elections. And so I studied hard and in fact, I learned a lot on the Cowboys sales tax election because we had that coming up a few years after that. And we were prepared when we got into the Cowboys sales tax election. And I ran several school and city bond elections after that. There's times when you have to learn more and to be able to take control. And little did I know that it's going to prepare me for serving as mayor later on too. But I'll never forget, in 2008, we had a recession and y'all may recall that. And we had a bond program going on for public works and parks, and I was not mayor then of just engineer. And we were in trouble because if we didn't get these road projects through, and actually some of these parts projects, we had buildings that were in badly needed repair wreck centers, so forth, we had to again, engage more people and raise more money. And we went ahead with that sales tax or I should say bond program, and we were able to get it passed in the midst of that. And again, I think unity and learning about knowledge there played a huge pull. I'm a big researcher. I love to, and there are so many books out there, but also generally we never come up. We think that we come up with some creative idea that no one has ever done well, especially in business. Somebody has done it. Find them, find and you can learn from their mistakes and hopefully not make your own, but also learn from their successes. But great question, Chris. Chris: Yeah, no, you're so right. I mean, I tell people never stop learning. Be curious. We learn from our mistakes. We can learn from others and we can learn from our successes because sometimes we're successful despite ourselves or despite the plan. Lots of people will tell you it's good to be lucky every now and again. So sometimes that happens. But if you take the time to learn the why behind the success or the failure you will have learning and then that learning you will grow from Jeff: You just spur the thought that I think is so important as you are a success as you grow in your success in business. There, the ego definitely comes up. And then we all know that we've got to be careful and be humble, but I want to create a definition for humbleness because so many times when we hear humble, it goes, oh, well, you need to be modest. You never to don't need to show that confidence and so forth are really, I think the important thing about humbleness is that you need to realize that you are vulnerable and that we need other people. And you can't do it alone and you don't need to do it alone because you'll not really succeed as well. So as a leader, you walk along a cliff every day and we need people to be able to keep us from falling off. And I think you've got to continue to remember that every step of the way and there's always somebody that has a better idea. Let's go find it. Chris: Yeah, that's great. Jeff, this has been a great conversation. Just love your insights and your input. Can't wait to see the book. Unity. I want to turn just a little before we wrap up, is there a favorite spot in Texas that enjoy visiting or just kind of think about when are not doing all the engineering work and planning communities? Jeff: I love Texas. There are so many rural areas and cities, but I've got to share with you about three quick ones right here. One, Arlington, Texas has become the destination between Orlando and Vegas. And it is amazing how you can come now to the metroplex and you can see all kinds of events that are taking place there in our stadiums. And it may not be sporting, it may be concerts, it may be wrestling, who knows what it may be there going on. But then also we have the premier park in the state of Texas, I believe in River Legacy Parks, 1300 acres on the Trinity River bottoms and all of the tree growth and everything is still there. Amazing place with a world-class nature center there in it. But then you can go to Fort Worth and experience the Texas experience, the Stockyards, and then the world-class museum. And so we do staycations here because we don't want to take advantage of that. But then I'll hit two others real quick. Lubbock, Texas, I know you're going to go what in the world? Check out that restaurant scene and check out the music scene that is out there. And then Tex always got things going on, but of course we love Austin, San Antonio there in particular, Fredericksburg, east Texas and Tyler is awesome, but we have found a great beach in Port Aransas, har cinnamon chores for sure. We love it Chris: A lot to offer, right? Big state. A lot to offer. We accommodate all types and tastes. Right. Well that's one of the things I love about the state of Texas is if you can kind of find anything that any interest you have, we can satisfied. Jeff: That's right. That's Chris: Maybe not snow skiing. We hadn't figured that one out yet. But other than that, I think we got you covered. Jeff: Yeah, that's right. And of course Colorado's worried Texans are going to take over Colorado. We do head up there to do our skiing Chris: For sure. Okay, last question. Do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Jeff: Oh my goodness. I hate to make this choice, but I've got to talk barbecue. We have a really neat story here in Arlington with Harto Barbecue. This was a guy that was a backyard barbecue or Brandon, he's Texas monthly now has him in the top 50. But it was really neat. We had the first neutral World Series here in Arlington. You remember during the pandemic they picked us to in the LA Dodgers in Tampa came to town. The LA Dodgers found the small little barbecue spot of Hertado here in downtown Arlington and it went viral. They put it on social media. Everybody found Brandon Hertado, including Taylor Sheridan and Taylor Sheridan with Ellison started having him out to his parties and now he signed an agreement with four six's ranch that Taylor owns to supply the beef. And he's now got several restaurants. It's just a really neat story. And how many times is it so fun for us in Texas to discover that next new barbecue spot? Got 'em all over the place. It's awesome. That is a cool Chris: Story. I've not heard of that, but now I'm going to have to go try some, so love it. Well, Jeff, this has been great. I really appreciate you taking the time, love your story and just congratulations for all the success you've had, and I know you'll continue to that into the future. Jeff: Thank you, Chris, and look forward to continuing this relationship. And thank you for what you're doing here on the podcast. Chris: Absolutely. Jeff: And remember, let's build Unity and the Unity blueprint. Special Guest: Jeff Williams.

J.P. Duffy is joined by Jeff Zaino, vice president of the AAA-ICDR's Commercial Division, to discuss the AAA's upcoming centenary and its enduring reputation as a trusted choice for resolving commercial conflicts across industries. The conversation delves into the AAA's significant milestones and accomplishments, highlighting its commitment to innovation, including its approach to AI and the recent appointment of Bridget McCormack as president and CEO. ----more---- Transcript: Intro: Hello and welcome to Arbitral Insights, a podcast series brought to you by our international arbitration practice lawyers here at Reed Smith. I'm Peter Rosher, Global Head of Reed Smith's International Arbitration Practice. I hope you enjoy the industry commentary, insights and anecdotes we share with you in the course of this series, wherever in the world you are. If you have any questions about any of the topics discussed, please do contact our speakers. And with that, let's get started.  J.P.: Welcome back to the next episode of Arbitral Insights, in which we'll discuss the American Arbitration Association with Jeff Zaino, who's the vice president of the AAA's commercial division. I'm J.P. Duffy. I'm an international arbitration partner based in New York that acts as both counsel and arbitrator in international arbitration seated around the world under a variety of governing laws and arbitral rules. I'm qualified in New York, England, and Wales in the DIFC courts in Dubai, where I previously lived and practiced. I routinely represent clients and arbitrations involving a range of issues and frequently sit as an arbitrator in commercial disputes as well. I also have the good fortune to be a member of the AAA's commercial division arbitrator roster, the ICDR panel, and I'm a member of the AAA-ICDR Life Sciences Steering Committee and a member of the ICDR Publications Committee as well. So I get to do a lot with the AAA, which is really a wonderful organization. As I mentioned, with me today is Jeff Zaino, who's the vice president of the commercial division of the AAA in New York. He oversees administration of the large, complex commercial caseload, user outreach, and panel of commercial neutrals in New York. He joined the association in 1990, and Mr. Zaino is dedicated to promoting ADR methods and services. He's also written and published extensively on the topics of electronic reform and ADR, including several podcasts with the ABA, talks on law, and corporate counsel business. And he's appeared on CNN, MSNBC, and Bloomberg to discuss national election reform efforts and the Help America Vote Act. He was deemed a 2018 Alternative Dispute Resolution Champion by the National Law Journal and received awards for his ADR work from the National Academy of Arbitrators, Region 2 and Long Island Labor and Employment Relations Association. In 2022, Jeff received the Alicott Lieber Younger Committee of the Year Award for the New York State Bar Association Commercial and Federal Litigation Section. And in 2023, the Chairman's Award, NYSBA Dispute Resolution Section. So as you can tell, Jeff is a highly experienced, highly lauded arbitration expert, but we're really lucky to have his valuable insights today. So before we begin with some of the substance, let me just give a little bit of background on the AAA and the commercial division so that those that are less familiar have a little bit of information about what we're going to discuss today. The AAA is a non-profit alternative dispute resolution service provider headquartered in New York that administers arbitrations, mediations, and other forms of dispute resolution, such as ombudsperson and dispute avoidance training. It was founded in 1926 to provide an alternative to civil court proceedings, and that makes the AAA one of the oldest arbitral institutions in the world, as well as one of the largest, having administered over 11,553 business-to-business cases in 2023 alone, with a total value of over $19.1 billion. So that should give you a pretty good idea of the scope of what the AAA does. Notably, the AAA has several divisions that offer users substantial subject matter expertise. For instance, the commercial division, which Jeff heads, specializes in business-to-business disputes of all sizes, but has a particular expertise with large complex cases across a variety of industries, including accounting, communications, energy, entertainment, financial services, franchise, hospitality, insurance and reinsurance, life sciences, sports, and technology. There are also separate AAA divisions that focus exclusively on construction issues, consumer disputes, employment matters, government issues, healthcare, and labor disputes. Lastly, as many of our listeners will know, the AAA has a well-known international division, the International Center for Dispute Resolution, or what's colloquially known as the ICDR, that focuses on disputes that have an international component. Before we get into some of our recent developments, Jeff, if you could tell us a bit about what makes the AAA different than other arbitral administrators, I'm sure our audience would love to hear that.  Jeff: Sure. Hey, thanks so much, J.P., for having me today, and thanks for the kind words at the beginning. It's great to be here today. Well, you mentioned it. The AAA is the largest and oldest ADR provider in the world. We have over 700 staff worldwide and 28 offices, including one in Singapore. And we have a huge panel, and you're on that panel. We have 6,000 arbitrators on our panel, and we consider them experts in the industry. And we're really proud of our panel. And like you mentioned, we're hitting our 100th anniversary in 2026. And since then, when I started, I started in the 90s, like you mentioned, 1990. From 1926, when we were founded, to 1990, we did a million cases, one million cases. And then, since then, from 1990 until now, 2024, we hit 8 million, 8 million cases. So it's growing. And I feel that's because of AAA, AAA-ICDR. Again, we've been around for almost 100 years, and we keep on growing. And I feel that we took the A out of ADR. I mean, everyone says alternative dispute resolution, but I really think now it's, and you'll probably agree with me, J.P., that it's dispute resolution. It's something in our toolbox and it's not alternative any longer. And then another thing about us, a huge difference about AAA-ICDR is we're not for profit. That makes us unique in this space. Profit-based companies are a little bit different than what we are. We're not criticizing them, but we're unique in the sense that we work directly for the parties, not for the arbitrators.  J.P.: That's a really interesting stat, Jeff. Let me unpack some of that because I think, first off, if I understood that correctly, you said up until 1990, there were 1 million cases administered. Is that right?  Jeff: That's correct. We did 1 million cases from our founding, 1926, a year after the Federal Arbitration Act in 1925. So we did 1 million when I came on board in 1990. And then from 1990 until now, we've done a total of 8 million. So we doubled that, or tripled it. It's been amazing how the growth that we've seen. And also during a pandemic, we saw a huge growth at AAA-ICDR.  J.P.: And Jeff, one thing that I think you're obviously very involved with the New York State Bar, and I've done quite a bit with the New York State Bar myself over the years. One thing that I noticed, and you just reminded me of this, was an uptick in submission agreements during the pandemic, by which I mean parties taking existing disputes for which there was no arbitration clause, drafting an arbitration clause for it to submit it and move it into arbitration. And I think some of that was a function of the recognition that disputes would founder if the courts were closed and that parties needed things done. Did you see that kind of growth during the pandemic of submission agreements as well?  Jeff: Absolutely. The courts were shut down, like you mentioned, for three to four months worldwide. And the ADR providers, like the AAA-ICDR, did not shut down. And we did have submissions, more submissions than we've ever seen. And usually it's only about, I would say, 2%, 3% of our caseload is submissions, but we saw the court systems. And I had, personally, I had over a billion dollar case, a bankruptcy case that came to us from Texas and it was mediated. We had two mediators, one in Connecticut and one in Texas. We had six parties, 40 people showed up on the Zoom, J.P., it was amazing. And that was a submission to AAA through the court system. The judge talked to the parties and said, listen, we're shut down. This is an important matter. Why don't you go to AAA? And so, yes, we did see submissions during the pandemic. I'm not sure if that's going to continue on. Most of our disputes are features of contract, as you know.  J.P.: Yeah. I mean, that's always going to be the case in arbitration, right? That the vast majority of cases will be subject to a pre-dispute arbitration clause. But I think it's really interesting when you see submission agreements like that, because I think it's a clear recognition that one, arbitration is a really valuable tool. And two, it's a real plus for the AAA and a real nod of confidence that those are submitted to AAA because that's parties taking something they know has to be figured out and saying, all right, AAA is the guy to do. I wanted to pick up, too, on that exponential growth of 8 million cases between 1990 and the present versus 1 million over the first, you know, what is that, 70-something years or 60-plus years?  Jeff: 60-plus years, absolutely, yeah. J.P.: Are there particular industries that you've seen significant growth in since the 1990 period that you were discussing, like between 1990 and the present? Are there particular industries that you are seeing more growth in or that you think there could be more growth in? Just be curious to get your views on that.  Jeff: Sure, sure. And my area of commercial, as you know, because you're on the commercial panel and the ICDR panel, is healthcare. And I know you're a big part of healthcare. Also, financial services. We've seen a huge growth in that in the last five years. We put together an advisory committee for financial services on insurance. And then also, as you probably know, consumer. We saw a big amount of consumer cases during the pandemic and even prior to the pandemic. And that's a big caseload. It's about 30% of our caseload at AAA-ICDR. But again, people criticize that sometimes and say, well, that's not fair to the consumer. They're forced into arbitration. But what I say, J.P., to law students and when I speak at events like this, I say, listen, we don't draft ourselves into contracts. AAA-ICDR does not do that. People draft us into contracts and we just try to make the process, we try to level the playing field. And we do a lot of consumer, but we do a lot of high-end commercial cases, as you know, a lot of international cases and things like that. But the two areas, I would say, a long way to answer to your question, J.P., is I would say healthcare and financial services, insurance, that's where we're seeing a lot of growth and also technology.  J.P.: The consumer aspect is one that is obviously very, very, very hot right now, given things like the mass arbitration rules and things like that. And we will probably touch on that in a bit, but it's a really valuable service to provide. And that's one thing that I think the AAA really does well. As you mentioned, it's a not-for-profit organization. It's not an organization that's out to make money off of consumer disputes. It's really there to help everybody resolve them. So something for everyone to keep in mind.  Jeff: The company bears the cost, not the consumer. And I hope people know that, that we're not out, like you said, we're not out to make a big buck on this. We're just trying to level a playing field and access to justice for these people.  J.P.: Yeah. And that's really what it is. At the end of the day, it's access to justice. And a lot of times the alternative is small claims court, which is not always a great choice. I've sat as an arbitrator in small claims court a few times, and I can tell you it's a great process when it works, but it can be a challenging process as well so  Jeff: Without a doubt.  J.P.: Always something to keep in mind. Yeah. Well, let's talk then about some of the recent developments because there have been quite a few. And as you mentioned, it's coming up on the centennial for the AAA-ICDR. And a lot has happened, obviously, in the 100 years of its existence, almost 100 years of its existence.  Jeff: Sure.  J.P.: And quite a few of those things are pretty monumental. And one of the biggest ones, I guess, is that in February 2023. Bridget McCormack took over as president and CEO of the AAA-ICDR from India Johnson, who was in that role for a lot of years. Bridget was previously the chief justice of the Michigan Supreme Court, if I'm correct, and was also a professor and associate dean at the prestigious University of Michigan Law School. So she brings a pretty extensive wealth of experience to the AAA. Now that she's been in that role for about a year and a half, how have things been different at the AAA-ICDR under Bridget's leadership?  Jeff: It's been wonderful. I mean, Bridget brings such life to the company right now. I mean, India Johnson was great. She put our house in order, our finances. but Bridget is now doing a wonderful job in getting out there. I'm not sure, J.P., have you met her yet?  J.P.: I have not had the pleasure of meeting her in person, but I'll sort of preview for our listeners that we are in the process of trying to get Bridget into our firm to talk to everyone about what the AAA-ICDR does and give sort of an insider's view for our partners.  Jeff: Oh, wonderful. She's such a dynamic speaker. If you go on YouTube, you'll see she speaks all the time. It's amazing. Whenever I ask her to speak at an event in New York, I feel bad about asking her because I know how busy she is, but she does agree. But I have to find a space in her calendar because if you see on LinkedIn, I know you're on LinkedIn too, J.P., and she is everywhere. It seems like every week she's speaking somewhere, very dynamic, and she embraces AI. And I know we're going to talk about AI a little bit, but also innovation. And she's been doing such a terrific job being the face of the AAA, and we needed that. India, again, did a wonderful job, but Bridget is out there and around the world doing international events, doing events here domestically. And it really, I think, is getting the word out there about ADR and about, well, I should say DR, sorry, dispute resolution, and also access to justice. Being a former chief justice of the Supreme Court of Michigan, doing a terrific job. And really, the people in the company are very excited. We have 700 plus employees, and we're excited with our new president. It really has been a great time with her.  J.P.: You know it's funny. The one thing I've universally heard from anyone who works there when I ask about Bridget is everyone says great energy, great leadership, and really, really, really strong presence, which is really wonderful to hear because you seem to be echoing that pretty strongly as well.  Jeff: Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, when she works a room, when she talks at an event, and it's great. We're forward-looking right now, big time. The AAA now is looking, AAA-ICDR, looking towards the future with innovation, with ODR, and we're going to talk about that, and with access to justice, which I love. And she's doing a terrific job.  J.P.: Well, that's great to hear. And I think we are going to talk about odr.com in just a second. But before we do that, I'd just be curious, because they may well be the same thing. But what would you say Bridget's greatest accomplishment is so far?  Jeff: I would say being the face of the AAA and embracing new ideas. For years, we didn't really, we moved kind of slowly. We embraced new ideas, but we moved slowly like a battleship turning around or an aircraft carrier turning around. We moved slowly. We're not doing that any longer. Bridget wants to move on quickly, which is great, and embrace things that are going on. And I think we're ahead of the curve on a lot of things, with acquiring ODR, with our embracing AI, with her ideas about innovation, access to justice. We are, I think, really ahead of the curve with respect to these areas, ahead of law firms, ahead of some of our competitors. And I attribute that to Bridget.  J.P.: That's really great to hear. That's really great to hear. And it's really hard with a large organization to be nimble. Exactly. I know we do that pretty well at Reed Smith, I think, too, but it's a challenge, and it does require great leadership in order to get everybody on board with that. So it's wonderful to hear that's happening at the AAA-ICDR, and you see it.  Jeff: Oh, yeah, without a doubt. And also, we're almost 100-year-old organizations, so you would think that we wouldn't be thinking about these innovation things in the future, but we are, which is terrific. We're an old organization, but not really. We're ready for the future.  J.P.: Well, let's talk about that future a bit because it's clear that there's a strong focus on that. And one of the first things that I noticed is the odr.com resourceful internet solutions acquisition. So for those that don't know anything about that, maybe you could fill the audience in and give us a bit of background about that one and what it's done for the AAA-ICDR.  Jeff: Sure. We just recently, a few months ago, acquired odr.com. It's a company that's been around for approximately 25 years. Online dispute resolution that can be completely customized for your needs for online dispute resolution. And they've been doing a wonderful job for many years. Okay. obviously much smaller than the AAA-ICDR, but they've been working with us. I'm not sure if you know this, J.P., but they've helped us with our no-fault business in New York. They help us set up our system initially years ago. So we've had a relationship with them for probably two decades with ODR. So we recently acquired them and we're working with them. Their most important area is right now is mediation. They have mediate.com and we're looking at  our mediation.org and combining those two. Okay. And we want to expand our mediation business. And again, I mentioned it a couple of times, access to justice. We want high volume cases. Okay. We do obviously high-end cases, high dollar cases, but right now we're seeing with odr.com, we can spread the business, we can grow the business and we can expand our mediation business. And that's what we're trying to do because mediation is growing. As you know, J.P., it's it mediation has grown tremendously over the last couple of decades. But now with ODR online dispute resolution, I mean, it's going to really grow, I think. So that's what that's why we acquired it. And, you know, Colin Rule, I'm not sure, J.P., if you've ever met Colin Rule. The head of ODR.com.  J.P.: I have not had the pleasure.  Jeff: Yeah, he's he's phenomenal. know if anyone that's listening to this podcast, you just Google Colin Rule. He's been in this space for many, many years and he's a phenomenal person. And I'm really excited about this acquisition. And I think we're going to work so well together.  J.P.: Jeff, just for people like me that are a little bit less savvy with how some of these things work technologically and sort of mechanically, is odr.com and mediate.com is a function of that, right? Or a part of that?  Jeff: Yeah, it's a part of it. Yeah. And I believe they have arbitration.com, but now it's going to be merged in with the AAA. And the platform of odr.com is going to be used for our mediation services at AAA for online mediation services.  J.P.: Okay. That's what I was getting at. So this is like a platform where users or parties and the mediator all log in, communicate with each other. Exchange their positions, and do everything that way. So is it correct to say it's sort of a virtual mediation platform?  Jeff: Yeah, without a doubt. And now the timing is perfect, J.P., because we just came off the pandemic about a couple of years ago, and we were seeing, as you probably know, as an arbitrator at AAA, we were doing thousands of virtual hearings arbitration and also mediation, and it worked. It really worked.  J.P.: Yeah. And that's really one of the true benefits that came out of the pandemic, in my view. Prior to the pandemic, I had always done certain aspects of cases virtually. And there was video conferencing was something that you could suggest, but that parties and frankly, arbitrators were not always that willing to embrace. But I think the pandemic really showed everyone that you can do things virtually. Efficiently, cost-effectively, and in a way that you don't need an in-person hearing for, and that it can be really successful. So I'm sure the timing has been right for odr.com and that acquisition. In terms of integrating it, what's the full timeline for getting it fully integrated, if you don't mind my asking?  Jeff: Sure. I mean, right now we're focusing on mediation. Okay. That's going to be our focus for the next several months. And then I think we're going to try to see if we can move this into arbitration also, because we're still seeing a lot of arbitrations, not a lot. I mean, I would say that 30% of our arbitrations are still being done in the virtual world. We're starting to see, and JP you've been at my Midtown office in Midtown Manhattan on 42nd Street, and we're starting to see about 60 to 70% capacity as an in-person for arbitration. But there's still a segment that wants to do it in the virtual world. And this is where odr.com comes into play. And right now it's, but the focus right now is mediation and working with our mediation team at the AAA-ICDR.  J.P.: Got it. Well, you know, it's funny. I have an employment partner who told me the odds of them ever doing an employment mediation below a certain value in person again are slim to none.  Jeff: Interesting.  J.P.: Yeah. And I think you guys have really hit the nail on the head with this.  Jeff: Well, with labor similar to employment, we're seeing almost 80% of labor cases now in New York City, I'm talking, are being done virtual, maybe even a little bit more than that. They got so used to doing it in the virtual world for labor cases, union management. It's interesting to see where we're going with this. But commercial type disputes, the type that you handle, J.P., we're starting to see more people coming back into in-person. However, we're not seeing the days of a witness flying in from Paris for one hour because we have all the technology at the offices, our offices around the country, the voice activated camera. So we don't need to ship in people for one hour. It's a waste of money.  J.P.: Yeah. And that's, you know, that's really the great thing that this technology allows for, which is, you know, I just did a, to mention the hearing space, Jeff, I just did a pretty large week-long hearing earlier in the year at the AAA's offices on 42nd Street. And it was great, but there were, you know, and I do, you know, myself prefer in-person for certain things, but, you know, during that hearing, we had witnesses that were exactly what you're describing, I mean, really only required to confirm a few issues or give, you know, a short cross examination and they were located in pretty diverse regions. Absolutely no reason to incur the time or expense or frankly, just the headache of bringing those people in from around the world for scheduling purposes and everything else.  Jeff: Sure.  J.P.: We did those, you know, we did those witnesses virtually and that is a real, that's a real benefit. You know, you sort of do that hybrid approach and you can save, it's way more efficient, It's way more cost-effective, and it is just easier from a scheduling perspective. So this is a really great development.  Jeff: Yeah, and J.P., have you noticed, I mean, when you were probably at my office on 42nd Street, we have now the big monitors. And I've noticed that arbitrators like yourself and advocates like yourself are using more technology in the rooms. We have these cupboards in our hearing rooms where the binders used to go, the big binders for exhibits and things like that. No longer am I seeing that. Most arbitrators are now using our, we provide iPads, we have the big monitors, and it seems like people are going away from paper, which is great too.  J.P.: Yeah, it's funny. I'm sort of like probably the last of the Mohicans where people really had to do things like mini books. Like when I was a real junior associate, we would have hearing bundles that were in mini book form and they were, you'd have 55 volumes and everything would be in there. I mean, there's sort of those nightmare stories where parties would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars just pulling together the paper for a hearing. And that, you know, that to me always seemed a little bit crazy. In this day and age, it is totally unnecessary. I would much prefer to have everything electronically. And that hearing space really allows for that. So really, really great to hear that parties are embracing that because it's such a cost savings and it's an efficiency. You know, it just doesn't need to be the way it was.  Jeff: Sure.  J.P.: Well, let's talk then a bit about some of the AI stuff that you were mentioning, because I think that is really, I have to confess, I don't understand it as well as I should. I think most people, if they were being honest, probably have an inkling of what it does, but don't really know. I'd love to hear what the AAA-ICDR is doing with AI, because it's a really, really, really groundbreaking development.  Jeff: Absolutely. Well, if you Google Bridget McCormack, our president, she speaks on AI quite frequently and it really has embraced it. And how have we embraced that AAA? Well, she encourages the staff to use it. And we have, she's even recommended certain programs that we should use. But with respect to how are we using it with respect to running our business? Well, we have ClauseBuilder and you know about ClauseBuilder. It's a tool that was developed in 2013 where people can go online and develop a clause for arbitration. Now we have ClauseBuilder AI, which as opposed to going through various modules with the original ClauseBuilder, you can just type in, I want an employment clause. I want three arbitrators. I want limited discovery. And the clause builder AI will build that clause for you. That's something we just rolled out. Also for arbitrators, scheduling orders. We have an AI program right now for arbitrators where a scheduling order usually takes an arbitrator, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, J.P., usually about an hour to two hours after you do the preliminary hearing. Well, now AI reduces that time to probably a couple of minutes for an arbitrator. So we rolled that out. And we obviously were having discussions about low dollar cases, high volume cases. Can AI be used? And we're looking into that. We haven't rolled that out yet. It's not going to eliminate you, J.P., but it's something that we're looking at right now. And we are embracing it. I use it for various things. I'll give you an example. I use it for if I'm doing an educational program, I'll type in, you know, I'm doing a program on arbitration and discovery. Can you give me a good title for this program? I've been doing this for years. I've used a lot of different titles for programs, and it's wonderful to use AI for those purposes and for editing things. So I like the fact that our company embraces it. Some companies do not. Some law firms, as you know, J.P., do not embrace AI. And we had that case last year where I think an attorney, it wasn't arbitration, it was litigation, where he cited cases through AI that never existed.  J.P.: Yeah, that's actually happened more than once since then. And it's been kind of amazing to me. Yeah, it's funny. We as a law firm at Reed Smith have definitely embraced AI. We've got a person who's sort of C-suite level that addresses that and that heads that function up. And I know we are trying to bring it in much more for things that are sort of routine, that don't require necessarily true attorney time. And it is a real game changer. I mean, you know, anybody who doesn't get on board with AI is going to get left behind at some point because it is truly, truly the wave of the future, in my view.  Jeff: Oh, absolutely. And the way I look at it, people say, well, it seems scary or whatever. But what about Google Maps and things that we've embraced years ago? I couldn't live, J.P., without Google Maps. So that's technology that it's going to help us. It's not going to take us over or whatever. It's going to help us enhance what we're doing.  J.P.: Yeah, I think the concerns about Skynet are a little bit, you know, Skynet and Terminator are a little bit far-fetched, but it is something that we all need to get on board with. It's a lot like the way that, you know, when I first started practicing the notion of uploading paper documents to be reviewed and then using search terms was really scary for a lot of people, but that, you know, that became commonplace and you couldn't function without it. This will do the same thing to the extent it's not the same. Now, Jeff, what's the overlap, if any, between that you see between some of the AI initiatives and odr.com?  Jeff: We're not really combining those yet, but I think we will. There's discussions about it, but right now we're focusing on mediation with odr.com and we're discussing rolling out AI with various things to help to assist our arbitrators, are mediators, but I think eventually, you know, there'll be a combination, I think, but right now there's not.  J.P.: Got it. Well, we'll stay tuned because I can't imagine those two things are going to stay in separate houses for too long. Well, we could talk all day about what's going on at the AAA-ICDR right now because it's just amazing. I mean, it's really incredibly, incredibly dynamic at the moment. But what I'd like to do is sort of shift ahead to looking ahead to the future. We talked a bit earlier about how the AAA is rapidly approaching its centennial anniversary, And that's kind of a natural reflection point for any organization. If you were to sort of sum things up and say, what accomplishments from its first century of existence that the AAA is most proud of, what do you think you would point to?  Jeff: Well, I would point to two things. First, how amazing the AAA-ICDR was and also other ADR providers. When pandemic hit, within a week, we were up with 700 employees doing thousands and thousands of cases. And I was worried about the arbitrators, not you, J.P., but other arbitrators with the technology. And our 6,000 arbitrators, it was flawless. It was amazing or seamless. It really went well. And that I'm very, very proud of because I had been with the AAA for a long time prior to that. And I was really concerned that the arbitrators weren't going to get it. We weren't going to be able to understand Microsoft Teams, Zoom, all that kind of stuff. So we did a great job during pandemic. We had some of our best years during pandemic with respect to helping society in arbitrating cases. But also some of the things that we've done for state and federal governments, you know, state and federal governments, Storm Sandy, Katrina. Those are the things I'm very proud of. I was a part of the Storm Sandy stuff where we administered 6,000 cases for homeowners and with insurance companies. And we were able to do that very quickly. And we're a not-for-profit. So the federal government and the state governments look at us and will hire us to do those kind of projects. And we can quickly mobilize because of our staff. So those two things really stand out in my career at AAA.  J.P.: That's a really, really interesting thing to point to because that truly embodies the best that the AAA can offer. It's an incredible service that really helped people with real-life issues during really challenging times. So wonderful to hear. What would you see for the next 100 years in the AAA? Like, you know, looking forward, I know it's going to be here for, it's going to be having its two, it's bicentennial at some point. It will absolutely occur. What would you see is, you know, if you were to fast forward yourself a hundred years and still be in the seat, because by then technology will have kept us all alive for the next hundred years, and you're Jeff Zaino 2.0, sitting around in 200 years, where would you see the AAA-ICDR at that point?  Jeff: Well, I'm on part of the committee for the 100-year anniversary. We have a committee already formed two years in advance to get ready for our 100th year anniversary, and we're talking about this stuff. And I think some of the themes that Bridget's talking about, access to justice, I think we're going to be, we saw from 1990 to now 8 million cases, we're going to see far more. We're going to see the public now embracing arbitration. When I was hired by the AAA in the 90s, I didn't even know what AAA stood for. I mean, with the name, American Arbitration Association. I didn't know what arbitration was. We are reaching out to law schools. We're doing collaboration with a lot of law schools in New York and throughout the country, throughout the world. And I think the word's going to get out there that arbitration is the way to go. Our mediation is too. And I'm excited about that. Also, we're going to see far more diversity at AAA and also in the community. And that's something that we really care about at the AAA. Right now, J.P., as you probably know, any list that goes out at the AAA is a minimum of 30% diverse. So we're going to see an increase in that area, but also access to justice for the public.  J.P.: Really, really great. And I think we will all watch with rapt attention to see what happens because it's only good things in the future for the AAA-ICDR, that's for sure. Well, Jeff, I just want to thank you. But before we wrap this up, I'm going to reserve my right to bring you back for another podcast because there's so much more we could talk about. So, but is there anything I missed that we should hit on now that would be great for the audience to hear? I know there's just so much going on.  Jeff: Well, I hope the audience when in 2026, when we have our 100th anniversary, I hope people participate in it because we're going to do things worldwide and we're going to be doing events everywhere. And that year we really are, we have a huge team of people that are working in our 100th year anniversary and not to just necessarily promote AAA-ICDR, but to promote arbitration and mediation. And that's what we're going to be doing in 2026, and I'm very excited about it.  J.P.: You heard it here first, folks. Arbitration is the future. And Jeff said it himself. So we will definitely watch closely. Well, good. And just to give a very quick preview on this one, too, because Jeff, you mentioned it. We are going to, in the future, have your colleagues from the ICDR side of the house come on, and we're going to bring some of the new folks from Singapore and a few other people. So more to come. And it's just incredible to see.  Jeff: We look forward to it. And J.P., I'd love to have another sit down with you. It's been great.  J.P.: Good. We absolutely will. So that then will conclude our discussion at the American Arbitration Association for now. And I want to thank our guest, Jeff Zaino of the AAA Commercial Division for his invaluable insights. And I want to thank you, the audience, for listening today. You should feel free to reach out to Reed Smith about today's podcast with any questions you might have. And you should absolutely as well feel free to reach out to Jeff. I know he's super responsive and he would love to chat with you directly if you have any questions. And we look forward to having you tune in for future episodes of the series, including future updates with Jeff and our podcast with the ICDR as well. So thank you everyone. And we will be back.  Outro: Arbitral Insights is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. For more information about Reed Smith's global international arbitration practice, email arbitralinsights@reedsmith.com. To learn about the Reed Smith Arbitration Pricing Calculator, a first-of-its-kind mobile app that forecasts the cost of arbitration around the world, search Arbitration Pricing Calculator on reedsmith.com or download for free through the Apple and Google Play app stores. You can find our podcast on podcast streaming platforms, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts at Reed Smith LLP.  Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.  All rights reserved.  Transcript is auto-generated.

In this special episode of the Oracle University Podcast, Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham, along with Principal HCM Instructor Jeff Schuster, delve into the intersection of HCM and AI, exploring the practical applications and implications of this technology in human resources. Jeff shares his insights on bias and fairness, the importance of human involvement, and the need for explainability and transparency in AI systems. The discussion also covers the various AI features embedded in HCM and their impact on talent acquisition, performance management, and succession planning.  Oracle AI in Fusion Cloud Human Capital Management: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/learning-path/oracle-ai-in-fusion-cloud-human-capital-management-hcm/136722 Oracle Fusion Cloud HCM: Dynamic Skills: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/oracle-fusion-cloud-hcm-dynamic-skills/116654/ Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode. -------------------------------------------------------- 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started!  00:26 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast! I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs here at Oracle University, and with me, is Nikita Abraham, Team Lead of Editorial Services. Nikita: Hi everyone! Last week's conversation was all about Oracle Database 23ai backup and recovery, where we dove into instance recovery and effective recovery strategies. Today's episode is a really special one, isn't it, Lois? 00:53 Lois: It is, indeed, Niki. Of course, all of our AI episodes are special. But today, we have our friend and colleague Jeff Schuster with us. I think our listeners are really going to enjoy what Jeff has to share with us. Nikita: Yeah definitely! Jeff is a Principal HCM Instructor at Oracle University. He recently put together this really fantastic course on MyLearn, all about the intersection of HCM and AI, and that's what we want to pick his brain about today. Hi Jeff! We're so excited to have you here.  01:22 Jeff: Hey Niki! Hi Lois! I feel special already. Thanks you guys so much for having me. Nikita: You've had a couple of busy months, haven't you?  01:29 Jeff: I have! It's been a busy couple of months with live classes. I try and do one on AI in HCM at least once a month or so so that we can keep up with the latest/greatest stuff in that area. And I also got to spend a few days at Cloud World teaching a few live classes (about artificial intelligence in HCM, as a matter of fact) and meeting our customers and partners. So yeah, absolutely great week. A good time was had by me.  01:55 Lois: I'm sure. Cloud World is such a great experience. And just to clarify, do you think our customers and partners also had a good time, Jeff? It wasn't just you, right? Jeff: Haha! I don't think it was just me, Lois. But, you know, HCM is always a big deal, and now with all the embedded AI functionality, it really wasn't hard to find people who wanted to spend a little extra time talking about AI in the context of our HCM apps. So, there are more than 30 separate AI-powered features in HCM. AI features for candidates to find the right jobs; for hiring managers to find the right candidates; skills, talent, performance management, succession planning— all of it is there and it really covers everything across the Attract/Grow/Keep buckets of the things that HR professionals do for a living. So, anyway, yeah, lots to talk about with a lot of people! There's the functional part that people want to know about—what are these features and how do they work? But obviously, AI carries with it all this cultural significance these days. There's so much uncertainty that comes from this pace of development in that area. So in fact, my Cloud World talk always starts with this really silly intro that we put in place just to knock down that anxiety and get to the more practical, functional stuff. 03:11 Nikita: Ok, we're going to need to discuss the functional stuff, but I feel like we're getting a raw deal if we don't also get that silly intro. Lois: She makes a really good point.  Jeff: Hahaha! Alright, fair enough. Ok, but you guys are gonna have to imagine I've got a microphone and a big room and a lot of echo. AI is everywhere. In your home. In your office. In your homie's home office. 03:39 Lois: I feel like I just watched the intro of a sci-fi movie. Jeff: Yeah. I'm not sure it's one I'd watch, but I think more importantly it's a good way to get into discussing some of the overarching things we need to know about AI and Oracle's approach before we dive into the specific features, so you know, those features will make more sense when we get there?  03:59  Nikita: What are these “overarching” things?  Jeff: Well, the things we work on anytime we're touching AI at Oracle. So, you know, it starts with things like Bias and Fairness. We usually end up in a pretty great conversation about things like how we avoid bias on the front end by making sure we don't ingest things like bias-generating content, which is to say data that doesn't necessarily represent bias by itself, but could be misused. And that pretty naturally leads us into a talk about guardrails. Nikita: Guardrails? Jeff:  Yeah, you can think of those as checkpoints. So, we've got rules about ingestion and bias. And if we check the output coming out of the LLM to ensure it complied with the bias and fairness rules, that's a guardrail. So, we do that. And we do it again on the apps side. And so that's to say, even though it's already been checked on the AI side, before we bring the output into the HCM app, it's checked again. So another guardrail.  04:58 Lois: How effective is that? The guardrails, and not taking in data that's flagged as bias-generating? Jeff: Well, I'll say this: It's both surprisingly good, and also nowhere near good enough.  Lois: Ok, that's as clear as mud. You want to elaborate on that?  Jeff: Haha! I think all it means is that approach does a great job, but our second point in the whole “standards” discussion is about the significance of having a human in the loop. Sometimes more than one, but the point here is that, particularly in HCM, where we're handling some really important and sensitive data, and we're introducing really powerful technology, the H in HCM gets even more important. So, throughout the HCM AI course, we talk about opportunities to have a human in the loop. And it's not just for reviewing things. It's about having the AI make suggestions, and not decisions, for example. And that's something we always have a human in the loop for all the time. In fact, when I started teaching AI for HCM, I always said that I like to think of it is as a great big brain, without any hands.  06:00 Nikita: So, we're not talking about replacing humans in HCM with AI.                                                                         Jeff: No, but we're definitely talking about changing what the humans do and why it's more important than ever what the humans do. So, think of it this way, we can have our embedded AI generate this amazing content, or create really useful predictions, whatever it is that we need. We can use whatever tools we want to get there, but we can still expect people to ask us, “Where did that come from?” or “Does this account for [whatever]?”. So we still have to be able to answer that. So that's another thing we talk about as kind of an overarching important concept: Explainability and Transparency. 06:41 Nikita: I'm assuming that's the part about showing our work, right? Explaining what's being considered, how it's being processed, and what it is that you're getting back. Jeff: That's exactly it. So we like to have that discussion up front, even before we get to things like Gen and Non-Gen AI, because it's great context to have in mind when you start thinking about the technology. Whenever we're looking at the tech or the features, we're always thinking about whether people are appropriately involved, and whether people can understand the AI product as well as they need to.  07:11 Lois: You mentioned Gen and Non-Gen AI. I've also heard people use the term “Classic AI.” And lately, a lot more about RAG and Agents. When you're teaching the course, does everybody manage to keep all the terminology straight? Jeff: Yeah, people usually do a great job with this. I think the trick is, you have to know that you need to know it, if that makes sense.  Lois: I think so, but why don't you spell it out for us. Jeff: Well, the temptation is sometimes to leave that stuff to the implementers or product developers, who we know need to have a deep understanding of all of that. But I think what we've learned is, especially because of all the functional implications, practitioners, product owners, everybody needs to know it too. If for no other reason so they can have more productive conversations with their implementers. You need to know that Classic or Non-Generative AI leverages machine learning, and that that's all you need in order to do some incredibly powerful things like predictions and matching. So in HCM, we're talking about things like predicting time to hire, identifying suggested candidates for job openings, finding candidates similar to ones you already like, suggesting career paths for employees, and finding recommended successors. All really powerful matching stuff. And all of that stuff uses machine learning and it's certainly AI, but none of that uses Generative AI to do that because it doesn't need to. 08:38 Nikita: So how does that fit in with all the hype we've been hearing for a long time now about Gen AI and how it's such a transformative technology that's going to be more impactful than anything else? Jeff: Yeah, and that can be true too. And this is what we really lean into when we do the AI in HCM course live. It's much more of a “right AI for the right job” kind of proposition. Lois: So, just like you wouldn't use a shovel to mix a cake. Use the right tool for the job. I think I've got it. So, the Classic AI is what's driving those kinds of features in HCM? The matching and recommendations?  Jeff: Exactly right. And where we need generative content, that's where we add on the large language model capability. With LLMs, we get the ability to do natural language processing. So it makes sense that that's the technology we'd use for tasks like “write me a job description” or “write me performance development tips for my employee”. 09:33 Nikita: Ok, so how does that fit in with what Lois was asking about RAG and Agents? Is that something people care about, or need to? Jeff: I think it's easiest to think about those as the “what's next” pieces, at least as it relates to the embedded AI. They kind of deal with the inherent limitations of Gen and Non-Gen components. So, RAG, for example - I know you guys know, but your listeners might not...so what's RAG stand for? Lois & Nikita: Retrieval. Augmented. Generation. Jeff: Hahaha! Exactly. Obviously. But I think everything an HCM person needs to know about that is in the name. So for me, it's easiest to read that one backwards. Retrieval Augmented Generation. Well, the Generation just means it's more generative AI. Augmented means it's supplementing the existing AI. And Retrieval just tells you that that's how it's doing it. It's going out and fetching something it didn't already have in order to complete the operation. 10:31 Lois: And this helps with those limitations you mentioned? Nikita: Yeah, and what are they anyway?  Jeff: I think an example most people are familiar with is that large language models are trained on this huge set of information. To a certain point. So that model is trained right up to the point where it stopped getting trained. So if you're talking about interacting with ChatGPT, as an example, it'll blow your doors off right up until you get to about October of 2023 and then, it just hasn't been trained on things after that. So, if you wanted to have a conversation about something that happened after that, it would need to go out and retrieve the information that it needed. For us in HCM, what that means is taking the large language model that you get with Oracle, and using retrieval to augment the AI generation for the things that the large language model wouldn't have had.  11:22 Nikita: So, things that happened after the model was trained? Company-specific data? What kind of augmenting are you talking about? Jeff: It's all of that. All those things happen and it's anything that might be useful, but it's outside the LLM's existing scope. So, let's do an example. Let's say you and Lois are in the market to hire someone. You're looking for a Junior Podcast Assistant. We'd like the AI in HCM to help, and in order to do that, it would be great if it could not just generate a generic job description for the posting, but it could really make it specific to Oracle. Even better, to Oracle University.  So, you'd need the AI to know a few more things in order to make that happen. If it knows the job level, and the department, and the organization—already the job posting description gets a lot better. So what other things do you think it might need to know? 12:13 Lois: Umm I'm thinking…does it need to account for our previous hiring decisions? Can it inform that at all? Jeff: Yes! That's actually a key one. If the AI is aware not only of all the vacancies and all of the transactional stuff that goes along with it (like you know who posted it, what's its metadata, what business group it was in, and all that stuff)...but it also knows who we hired, that's huge. So if we put all that together, we can start doing the really cool stuff—like suggesting candidates based not only on their apparent match on skills and qualifications, but also based on folks that we've hired for similar positions. We know how long it took to make those hires from requisition open to the employee's first start date. So we can also do things like predicting time to hire for each vacancy we have with a lot more accuracy. So now all of a sudden, we're not just doing recruiting, but we have a system that accounts for “how we do it around here,” if that makes any sense.  But the point is, it's the augmented data, it's that kind of training that we do throughout ingestion, going out to other sources for newer or better information, whatever it is we need. The ability to include it alongside everything that's already in the LLM, that's a huge deal.  13:31  Nikita: Ok, so I think the only one we didn't get to was Agents. Jeff: Yeah, so this one is maybe a little less relevant in HCM—for now anyway. But it's something to keep an eye on. Because remember earlier when I described our AI as having a great big brain but no hands?  Lois: Yeah... Jeff: Well, agents are a way of giving it hands. At least for a very well-defined, limited set of purposes. So routine and repetitive tasks. And for obvious reasons, in the HCM space, that causes some concerns. You don't want, for example, your AI moving people forward in the recruiting process or changing their status to “not considered” all by itself. So going forward, this is going to be a balancing act. When we ask the same thing of the AI over and over again, there comes a point where it makes sense to kind of “save” that ask. When, for example, we get the “compare a candidate profile to a job vacancy” results and we got it working just right, we can create an agent. And just that one AI call that specializes in getting that analysis right. It does the analysis, it hands it back to the LLM, and when the human has had what they need to make sure they get what they need to make a decision out of it, you've got automation on one hand and human hands on the other...hand. 14:56 Have you mastered the basics of AI? Are you ready to take your skills to the next level? Unlock the potential of advanced AI with our OCI Generative AI Professional course and certification that covers topics like large language models, the OCI Generative AI Service, and building Q&A chatbots for real-world applications. Head over to mylearn.oracle.com to find out more. 15:26 Nikita: Welcome back! Jeff, you've mentioned the “Time to Hire” feature a few times? Is that a favorite with people who take your classes? Jeff: The recruiting folks definitely seem to enjoy it, but I think it's just a great example for a couple of reasons. First, it's really powerful non-generative AI. So it helps emphasize the point around the right AI for the right job. And if we're talking about things in chronological order, it's something that shows up really early in the hire-to-retire cycle. And, you know, just between us learning nerds, I like to use Time to Hire as an early example because it gets folks in the habit of working through some use cases. You don't really know if a feature is going to get you what you need until you've done some of that. So, for example, if I tell you that Time to Hire produces an estimated number of days to your first hire. And you're still Lois, and you're still Niki, and you're hiring for a Junior Podcast Assistant. So why do you care about time to hire? And I'm asking you for real—What would you do with that prediction if you had it?  16:29 Nikita: I guess I'd know how long it is before I can expect help to arrive, and I could plan my work accordingly. Jeff: Absolutely. What else. What could you do with a prediction for Time to Hire? Lois: Think about coverage? Jeff: Yeah! Exactly the word I was looking for. Say more about that.  Lois: Well, if I know it's gonna be three months before our new assistant starts, I might be able to plan for some temporary coverage for that work. But if I had a prediction that said it's only going to be two weeks before a new hire could start, it probably wouldn't be worth arranging temporary coverage. Niki can hold things down for a couple of weeks. Jeff: See, I'm positive she could! That's absolutely perfect! And I think that's all you really need to have in terms of prerequisites to understand any of the AI features in HCM. When you know what you might want to do with it, like predicting the need for temp cover, and you've got everything we talked about in the foundation part of the course—the Gen and the Classic, all that stuff, you can look at a feature like Time to Hire and then you can probably pick that up in 30 seconds. 17:29 Nikita: Can we try it? Jeff: Sure! I mean, you know, we're not looking at screens for this conversation, but we can absolutely try it. You're a recruiter. If I tell you that Time to Hire is a feature that you run into on the job requisition and it shows you just a few editable fields, and then of course, the prediction of the number of days to hire—tell me how you think that feature is going to work when you get there. Lois: So, what are the fields? And does it matter? Jeff: Probably not really, but of course you can ask. So, let me tell you. Ready? The fields—they are these. Requisition Title, Location, and Education Level.  Nikita: Ok, well, I have to assume that as I change those things… like from a Junior Podcast Assistant to a Senior Podcast Assistant, or change the location from Redwood Shores to Detroit, or change the required education, the time to hire is going to change, right?  Jeff: 100%, exactly. And it does it in real time as you make those changes to those values. So when you pick a new location, you immediately get a new number of days, so it really is a useful tool. But how does it work? Well, we know it's using a few fields from the job requisition, but that's not enough. Besides those fields, what else would you need in order to make this prediction work? 18:43 Lois: The part where it translates to a number of days. So, this is based on our historic hiring data? How long it took us to hire a podcast assistant the last time? Jeff: Yep! And now you have everything you need. We call that “historic data from our company” bit “ingestion,” by the way. And there's always a really interesting discussion around that when it comes up in the course. But it's the process we use to bring in the HCM data to the AI so it can be considered or predictions exactly like this. Lois: So it's the HCM data making the AI smarter and more powerful. Nikita: And tailored. Jeff: Exactly, it's all of that. And obviously, the HCM is better because we've given it the AI. But the AI is also better because it has the HCM in it. But look, I was able to give you a quick description of Time to Hire, and you were able to tell me what it does, which data it uses, and how it works in just a few seconds. So, that's kind of the goal when we teach this stuff. It's getting everybody ready to be productive from moment #1 because what is it and how does it work stuff is already out of the way, you know?  19:52 Lois: I do know! Nikita: Can we try it with another one? Jeff: Sure! How about we do...Suggested Candidates. Lois: And you're going to tell us what we get on the screen, and we have to tell you how it works, right? Jeff: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Ok—Suggested Candidates. You're a recruiter or a hiring manager. You guys are still looking for your Junior Podcast Assistant. On the requisition, you've got a section called Suggested Candidates. And you see the candidate's name and some scores. Those scores are for profile match, skills match, experience match. And there's also an overall match score, and the highest rated people you notice are sorted to the top of the list. So, you with me so far?  Lois: Yes! Jeff: So you already know that it's suggesting candidates. But if you care about explainability and transparency like we talked about at the start, then you also care about where these suggested candidates came from. So let's see if we can make progress against that. Let's think about those match scores. What would you need in order to come up with match scores like that? 20:54 Nikita: Tell me if I'm oversimplifying this, but everything about the job on the requisition, and everything about the candidate? Their skills and experience? Jeff: Yeah, that's actually simplified pretty perfectly. So in HCM, the candidate profile has their skills and experience, and the req profile has the req requirements.  Lois: So we're comparing the elements of the job profile and the person/candidate profile. And they're weighted, I assume? Jeff: That's exactly how it works. See, 30 seconds and you guys are nailing these! In fairness, when we discuss these things in the course, we go into more detail. And I think it's helpful for HCM practitioners to know which data from the person and the job profiles is being considered (and sometimes just as important, which is not being considered). And don't forget we're also considering our ingested data. Our previously selected candidates. 21:45 Lois: Jeff, can I change the weighting? If I care more about skills than experience or education, can I adjust the weighting and have it re-sort the candidates? Jeff: Super important question. So let me give you the answer first, which is “no.” But because it's important, I want to tell you more. This is a discussion we have in the class around Oracle's Embedded vs. Custom AI. And they're both really important offerings. With Embedded, what we're talking about are the features that come in HCM like any other feature. They might have some enablement steps like profile options, and there's an activation panel. But essentially, that's it. There's no inspection panel for you to open up and start sticking your screwdriver in there and making changes. Believe it or not, that's a big advantage with Embedded AI, if you ask me anyway.  Nikita: It's an advantage to not be able to configure it? Jeff: In this context, I think you can say that it is. You know, we talk about the advantages about the baked-in, Embedded AI in this course, but one of the key things is that it's pre-built and pre-tested. And the big one: that it's ready to use on day one. But one little change in a prompt can have a pretty big butterfly effect across all of your results. So, Oracle provides the Embedded AI because we know it works because we've already tested it, and it's, therefore, ready on day one. And I think that story maybe changes a little bit when you open up the inspection panel and bust out that screwdriver. Now you're signing up to be a test pilot. And that's just fundamentally different than “pre-built and ready on day one.” Not that it's bad to want configuration. 23:24 Lois: That's what the Custom AI path and OCI are about though, right? For when customers have hyper-specific needs outside of Oracle's business processes within the apps, or for when that kind of tuning is really required. And your AI for HCM course—that focuses on the Embedded AI instead of Custom, yes? Jeff: That is exactly it, yes. Nikita: You said there are about 30 of these AI features across HCM. So, when you teach the course, do you go through all of them or are there favorites? Ones that people want to spend more time on so you focus on those? Jeff: The professional part of me wants to tell you that we do try to cover all of them, because that explainability and transparency business we talked about at the beginning. That's for real, so I want our customers to have that for the whole scope.  24:12  Nikita: The professional part? What's the other part?  Jeff: I guess that's the part that says sure, we need to hit all of them. But some of them are just inherently more fun to work on. So, it's usually the learners who drive that in the live classes when they get into something, that's where we spend the most time. So, I have my favorites too. The learners have their favorites. And we spend time where it's everybody's favorite. Lois: Like where? Jeff: Ok, so one is far from the most complex one, but I think it's really elegant in its simplicity. And it's the Celebrate feature, where we do employee recognition. There's an AI Assist available there. So when it's time to recognize a colleague, you just need to enter the headline or the title, and the AI takes it from there and just writes up the recognition. 24:56 Lois: What about that makes it a good example, Jeff? You said it's elegant. What do you mean?  Jeff: I think it's a few things. So, start with the prompt. It's just the one line—just the headline. And that's your one input. So, type in the headline, get the recognition below. It's a great demonstration of not just the simplicity, but the power we get out of that simplicity. I always ask it to recognize my employees for implementing AI features in Oracle HCM, just to see what it comes up with. When it tells the employee that they're helping the company by automating routine tasks, bringing efficiency to the HR department, and then launches into specific examples of how AI features help in HCM, it really is pretty incredible. So, it's a simple demo, but it explains a lot about how the Gen AI works. Lois: That's really cool. 25:45 Nikita: So this one is generative AI. It's using the large language model to create the recognition based on the prompt, which is basically just whatever you entered in the headline. But how does that help explain how Gen AI works in HCM? Jeff: Well, let's take our simple prompt for example. There's a lot happening behind the scenes. It's taking our prompt, it's doing its LLM thing, but before it's done, it's creating the results in a very specific way. An employee recognition reads really differently than a job description. So, I usually describe this as the hidden part of our prompt. The visible part is what we typed. But it needs to know things like our desired output format. Make sure to use the person's name, summarize the benefits, and be sure to thank them for their contribution, that kind of stuff. So, those things are essentially hard-coded into the page. And that's to say, this is another area where we don't get an inspection panel that lets us go in and tweak the prompt.  26:42 Nikita: And that's generally how generative AI works? Jeff: Pretty much. Wherever you see an AI Assist button in HCM, that's more or less what's going on. And so when you get to some of the other more complex features, it's helpful to know that that is what's going on.  Lois: Like where? Jeff: Well, it works that way for the About Me part of your employee profile, for goal creation in performance, and I think a really great example is in performance, where managers are providing the competency development tips. So the prompt there is a little more complex there because it involves the employee's proficiency rating instead of free text. But still, pretty straightforward. You're gonna click AI Assist and it's gonna generate all the development tips for any specific competency listed for that employee. Good development tips. Five of them. Nicely formatted with bullet points. And these aren't random words assembled by an AI. So they conform to best practices in the development of competencies. So, something is telling the LLM to give us results that are that good, in that particular way.  So, it's just another good example of the work AI is doing while protected behind the inspection panel that doesn't exist. So, the coding of that page, in combination with what the LLM generates and the agent that it uses, is what produces the result. That's generally the approach. In the class, we always have a good time digging into what must be going on behind that inspection panel. Generally speaking, the better feel we have for what's going on on these pages, the better we're able to get the results we want, even without having that screwdriver out. 28:21  Nikita: So it's time well-spent, looking at all the individual features? Jeff: I think so, especially if you're anticipating really using any of them. So, the good news is, once you learn a few of them and how they work, and what they're best at, you stop being surprised after a while. But there are always tips and tricks. And like we talked about at the top, explainability and transparency are absolutely key. So, as much as I'm not a fan of the phrase, I do think this is kind of a “knowledge is power” kind of situation. 28:51 Nikita: Sadly, we're just about out of time for this episode.  Lois: That's too bad, I was really enjoying this. Jeff, you were just talking about knowledge—where can we get more?  Jeff: Well, like you mentioned at the start, check out the AI in HCM course on MyLearn. It's about an hour and a half, but it really is time well spent. And we get into detail on everything the three of us discussed here today, and then we have demoscussions of every feature where we show them and how they work and which data they're using and a whole bunch more. So, there's that. Plus, I hear the instructor is excellent. Lois: I can vouch for that! Jeff: Well, then you should definitely look into Dynamic Skills. Different instructor. But we have another course, and again I think about an hour and a half, but when you're done with the AI course, I always feel like Dynamic Skills is where you really wanna go next to really flesh out all the Talent Management ideas that got stirred up while you were having a great time in the AI course.  And then finally, the live classes. It's always really fun to take live questions while we talk about AI in HCM.   29:54 Nikita: Thanks, Jeff! This has been really interesting.  Lois: Yeah, thanks for being here, Jeff. We've loved having you on. Jeff: Thank you guys so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.  Lois: If you want to learn more about what we discussed, go to the show notes for today's episode. You'll find links to the AI for Human Capital Management and Dynamic Skills courses that Jeff mentioned so you can check them out. You can also head over to mylearn.oracle.com to find the live sessions for MyLearn subscribers that Jeff conducts. Nikita: Join us next week as we kick off our “Best of 2024” season, where we'll be revisiting some of our most popular episodes of the year. Until then, this is Nikita Abraham…  Lois: And Lois Houston, signing off!   30:35 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

The teacher-student dynamic has been central for the unfolding story of humanity. Although universities began to emerge in Europe in the 11th and 12th centuries, the modern education system only developed during the Industrial Revolution, in part for adults to be able to go to work in factories. Modern education focused on exterior knowledge of the physical world and was shaped by scientific orientation. It also included learning and development of skills. These were mostly physical and mental skills that would facilitate participation in the workforce and employability.What was largely left out of modern education was the interior and the character development journey. Modern education had no capacity to address this need. It was left for the priest, rabbi, lama, and the guru-teacher. The therapist was added later.Anyone aspiring to deeper self-insight and understanding and the pursuit of perennial wisdom, both in the East and the West, needed to find the teacher and often the community where the quest for truth and self-knowledge could be supported.Recent decades brought new realizations about the dynamic between a searching student and their spiritual teacher. In this conversation between Aviv Shahar and longtime Portals friend Jeff Vander Clute, author of Beyond Every Teaching, they trace the teacher's journey, the identification trap for both teacher and student, and the golden shadow phenomenon. They also are reflecting on the kinds of ethical evolutionary communities that are arising now to address these challenges.These ponders come at a critical time. We've explored on Portals the post-guru quest and the search for truth as new creative capacities come online with the activation of Homo Universalis, the universal human. We can integrate with the new incoming evolutionary impulse as self-authored and self-responsible — our own pathfinders with the help of others around us.Among their insights:If the teacher identifies with the students' love and admiration, or with their criticism, they begin to be more attuned to their students rather than the original purpose or the ineffable source.A pathology of communities that decide to do away with teachers is to bounce to the other side of the polarity and not adopt any form of internal structure.We are in the post-guru phase and the resolution of the story is that the collective — the mutualized ecology and distributed body of people that we are — can become the teaching agency.This is about us as human beings learning to handle power safely before we can become universalized, where the power levels intensify; we go through many tests in our life and experience.For as long as we are in the flesh, we will have unfinished business that needs tending to, whatever the degree of enlightenment, even of a teacher. Nobody is exonerated.This conversation is part of the continuing Portals discovery into what is emerging on the frontiers of human experience in this time of profound change. Information about upcoming special events can be found on the Events page. Also visit and subscribe to our YouTube channel. TWEETABLE QUOTES “And I would say a great way to realize the confirmation, not just the knowing, which could be abstract, to imbibe life and the experiences that life brings through interactions with students through interactions with anyone on the street. And to bring oneself into contact with the world is perhaps the most powerful way, not only to be confirmed in what one knows, you can think of the world as the playground for one's spirituality, and more than that, the testing ground, but also to go deeper. And not only be in the cave from time to time, but to become the cave. So there's no longer a need to go off to the cave. That happens when the inner and the outer are reconciled, unified, and ultimately seamlessly integrated.” (Jeff)“It's well said and I'm seeing the value of the dysfunction in bringing attention and awareness to the higher potential for the teaching and for the teacher. And, as you said, if we start with the goal of empowering, enabling everyone to have their own source connection, source realization, it does flow more smoothly. And if there's dissonance, that's a great indication that maybe we could be, maybe it's time, maybe doing more of that, maybe it wasn't time before. So the dissonance is valuable.” (Jeff)“The trap is there already, it's always ever present, and unless we continually work with it we are captured by the ghostly behaviors, the ghostly patterns, of this trap. For as long as we are in the flesh, even when we feel that we have worked through all our disowned content, there will always be more patterns that with greater power, and with greater intensity, and with greater illumination will come to the surface.” (Aviv) “Now what I'm describing here, in some way, is a central feature of the human experience, even in the child-parent relationship. We each, as children, we had the first moment when we said, well, my father, my mother - hopefully a little later than earlier - and there was, okay, they are human beings, too. They're flawed in their way, they have their weaknesses. And many of us experienced it very early in childhood, for some of us it came later. So there is a disillusionment crisis the student now experiences in relation to the teacher.” (Aviv) RESOURCES MENTIONED Portals of Perception WebsiteAviv's LinkedIn Aviv's TwitterAviv's WebsiteThe Guru Trap and the Golden Shadow

Listen Up Home Buyers—Jeff Jackson With FIMAVictoria: Hi, I'm Victoria Ray Henderson, the host of the NABA podcast, Listen Up Homebuyers. So happy to have back for a second round of conversations, Jeff Jackson, the Deputy Assistant Administrator for the Federal Insurance Directorate. He leads flood insurance operations for the National Flood Insurance Program at FEMA. And Jeff, I want to thank you so much for being a guest again on Listen Up Homebuyers.Jeff: Thanks. It's great to be back.Victoria: So glad to have you. I'd like to start with a very general question. What should every homebuyer know about flood insurance?Jeff: The most important thing to know is then that in all but the rarest of cases, flood risk is not insured through your homeowner's insurance policy. If you want to have coverage for water that comes from the outside and comes inside your house, so not stink backups, not toilet backups. Those kinds of things, but water coming in from the outside, it requires a separate flood insurance policy. You can either buy that from the National Flood Insurance Program, which is through FIMA, or there often are a number of private flood insurance policies that you can buy as well.Victoria: So if somebody lives in an area that isn't by the coast, isn't necessarily by a creek or a river, what do they need to know about flood insurance?Jeff: Well, it floods everywhere. There have been in the last little bit under 25 years, 99% of the counties in America have flooded. So, it's happening somewhere in your county. And what I would say is it's not always readily apparent just by looking around and seeing the distance to the nearest water source, although that's an extremely important factor. Changes in our built environment, the more we see paving, the more we see development of what was traditionally green space can raise our flood risk as well. And so there can be an illusion that you don't have flood risk when in actuality, you're at least perhaps moderately risky. And that certainly is an area when you get there, you would at least want to strongly only consider buying a flood insurance policy.Victoria: Okay. So as you know, I only work for people buying homes as an exclusive buyer broker. So the first thing that we typically do when they're going to be buying a home is see how well they're qualified to obtain a mortgage. At what point should a home buyer be looking at the risk that could be potentially there in a house of interest?Jeff: I would say it's when you get that listing from your broker and you see a list of houses, it's good to go look them up on the FIMA maps to see if it's a place where you would have to buy flood insurance. And we certainly went over this the last time I was here. But for the folks who are checking in for the first time, if you are in a high-risk area, what's called a special flood hazard area, and you have a federally backed mortgage, which is most mortgages, then you're required to buy. For everyone else, it's an option to buy, and for those where it's required, certainly as you go through the lending process, that will be made clear to you.But really, getting back to the heart of your question, it's when you walk through the door of the house for the first time. It's everything from knowing if it's in a high-risk area as you go and choose to look at the listing, as well as when you walk through the property, look around and look for what are there any signs of water in this house? Are there stomp pumps? Has clearly work been done because there's a drainage issue in a basement? Many places have that. So you don't have to be scared away that it's a matter of going in and learning as much as you can about the property so that you make a decision about whether or not to purchase it, and then if you do purchase it; First, do you have to buy, have flood insurance? And then second, should you choose to buy flood insurance?Victoria: Right, I always tell people that I'm working with that when we go into a house, the first thing I'm going to tell you is everything that's wrong with it. And I go straight to the basement because we both live in the greater Washington, D.C. area, and we have a lot of wet basements, a lot of issues, along the Potomac River. Just last week, I'm working with clients in Old Town, Alexandria, and they were interested in a condominium, and I checked the flood maps, and it's in an A.E. flood map. Walk me through what your advice would be for a homebuyer in that situation if they really wanted to put an offer in on a place like that.Jeff: The first thing I would do is reach out to your insurance agent and get a quote, not just for homeowners insurance, but also for flood insurance. If you're in that A.E. zone, that's one of the zones that is required to purchase if you have a federally backed mortgage. So I would go get a flood quote and factor that in, the cost of that in, when you're determining the affordability of the house, and as you're comparing it to other properties, perhaps where you might not have to buy a flood insurance policy and make that part of your buying decision, the more you can learn about a property, including from the cost perspective. But your number one trigger should be, have your insurance agent on speed dial. So, when you see that house, you know that Saturday is coming, you're getting excited about going and looking at all these properties, you know for that one, you would have to factor in cost.Victoria: When people are looking at properties and it's zoned X, but they aren't that far from a zone A.E., you had mentioned that typical flood insurance isn't covered in most homeowners insurance. Is that correct?Jeff: That's right.Victoria: Yeah. So, if you are anywhere near an A.E., would your advice be to go ahead and look into flood insurance?Jeff: I would go ahead and do it for a couple of reasons. The FIMA flood maps are really a regulatory product designed to decide when we as a country and particularly looking out for the mortgage holders' interest, when we're going to say, hey, we need you to go ahead and purchase this insurance because your high risk. If you're just outside of the high-risk area, you're not no risk, and that's the biggest myth that we have to bust here as we teach folks about flood risk in America. You're probably at medium risk. Medium to medium high is a good way of characterizing it.What we know over time is it only takes about an inch of water that can quickly get you up to around a $25,000 cost repairing your home. So, in that circumstance, I certainly would buy a policy. It really gives you peace of mind. It is an expense and I know with housing being so expensive and insurance costs are rising, it's not exciting to add an additional expense into the household budget to be sure. But we talk to people every year who do have the coverage and who do experience a loss. And they look at, let's say, a $50,000 or $60,000 flood loss, which is pretty common.Victoria: Okay.Jeff: Not average, but common, and so if you don't have the coverage, you're looking at covering that, putting things on a credit card, taking it out of your home equity. If you just bought the property, depending upon the size of your down payment, you may not have a lot of equity, and it really can set you back. People get set back decades and don't financially or don't financially recover at all. So particularly for the people in that situation that you described, it would be a great investment. Your home is your biggest investment for most of us, and this certainly will help you protect that investment.Victoria: Is it possible to give kind of an average, and we're not going to hold you to this, but an average cost for flood insurance? So people have some idea of what they'd be looking at.Jeff: Our average cost is a little bit over $800 right now.Victoria: Okay.Jeff: But it can range and particularly for those who are just outside of a high-risk area, it's going to be a little bit more than that probably. But the average cost right now is just a little bit over $800. The National Flood Insurance Program was created because we have an insurability problem in America, as well as an affordability problem. We haven't unfortunately solved the affordability problem in all these years, but the NFIP is here and we'll sell a policy to anyone in any of the 22,600 participating communities. So that availability problem that we see with, you know, we see insurers pulling out of places like California. We see people dropping people in Florida, insurers dropping people in Florida.With the NFIP that we're going to be there and we're going to continue to sell you the insurance. It is going to be at a risk-based price. That's the affordability piece of things, and it's one of the reasons why certainly for those who can afford to do so, we encourage you to buy, and for those that can't afford it, we continue to advocate to Congress to provide some type of assistance, and we're hopeful that one day that'll be in place as well.Victoria: On this podcast, we're going to include some links so that people can learn more, from the FIMA maps and regarding the flood insurance that you're talking about. Is there anything else that you would like consumers to know and specifically, again, people who are buying homes, anything that you could share with your expertise?Jeff: One is that the FIMA flood map is a snapshot in time. It may be some vintage and certainly has to be reevaluated to make sure it continues to represent the flood picture every five years, but a lot can happen in five years. Maps get updated on a priority order. And so, it's not uncommon to see a 10-year-old map that probably is pretty close to what the risk is. But if you're expecting fine line gradations and risk, that's not really what it's designed to do. It's designed to say it's tremendously helpful for the folks in your community who manage the floodplain, particularly at the county level. It's an important technical product for them. It's important for realtors and it certainly important to help you learn if you have to buy.What it's not great at is a nuanced view of risk, and so I caution against over-reliance on the flood maps, and I think the way you look at it is the right way to think about it, which is not just, am I in or am I out of the high risk zone? But how close am I to water sources? And then give some thought and have some conversation around what have been the changes to the built environment? Say, every map will have a date on it. What's the environment? What's happened since that map was put into place? That certainly is one thing.The second thing I would say is for many years, there's been a school of thought, which is that if you don't have to buy the insurance, you don't need it, you don't need to talk about it. I caution against anybody, gives you a very dismissive, oh, you don't need that, and so we don't need to bother to talk about it. I think that's a thinking that's a little bit behind the times and is certainly not where I would want to be as a consumer in terms of getting service from whoever would be giving me that advice. So I would counsel against you don't need it. I think there are a number of great agents. There are a number of great insurance agents who will help talk you through a nuanced conversation. I think somebody who's willing to get in a conversation with you is where I would want to be as a buyer.Victoria: Yeah, I think exclusive buyer brokers like myself, and we're all over the country, one of the first things we want to do is educate and inform, which is why I have you on this podcast, because people need to know what the risks are, and then they can make a decision based on that. I live in the Washington area, and every summer, I end up flocking to the beach, just like everybody does. Sometimes I drive along that strip, that little narrow strip of Ocean City and Lewis, Delaware, and then Dewey and Rehoboth and just think, this is a pretty risky area.Jeff: Yeah, it certainly is, there's been so much evolution in the science of catastrophe modeling and learning all the flooding events that potentially could happen. The more I talk to those experts, the more that I learn is that the amount of time we're in a home is infinitesimally small. It's just minute, and you'll hear owners of homes say, I've been here for 10 years, I've been here for 15 years, and it's never flooded. So, it's probably not likely to flood. And while previous flooding experience is important, it's just such a small amount of time. I mean, the way the water patterns work, 100 years is just beginning to get to the point where you really get a keen sense of how water is moving around and what the risk is in a particular area.And then that's on top of the fact that we change things so much. I mean, we're fortunate to live in these areas where things are getting torn down and things are getting rebuilt and we need additional parking. And so, there's got to be an extra lot. And so, there's all these things that sort of hopefully will move us away from maybe the people selling us the property had it for 15 years and it never flooded there. I wouldn't let that be the end of my inquiry.Victoria: No, definitely not. I mean, it's the biggest financial commitment you're going to make in your life until you, I guess, do it again. But you don't want to make a mistake like this.Jeff: We have a great website called FloodSmart.gov. It has all kinds of information about flood insurance policies, and that's important, but also just about flood risk in America. So, it's a great resource to go out and learn a little bit. Encourage your listeners to go check that out and we've got some videos on that as well. So, go check that out.Victoria: Great. Jeff Jackson is the Deputy Assistant Administrator for the Federal Insurance Directorate. He leads flood insurance operations for the National Flood Insurance Program at FIMA. Jeff, it is such a pleasure to talk to you again about flood insurance here on Listen Up Homebuyers.Jeff: It was great to be with you. Thanks.FEMA flood insurance Listen Up, Home Buyers! The podcast offering advice and tips from true buyer agents. Host and Producer, Victoria Ray Henderson is the owner and broker of HomeBuyer Brokerage in the Washington D.C. area. Victoria is and a member of the National Association of Exclusive Buyer Agents.

Jeff Morris, VP of Product & Solutions Marketing at Couchbase, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss Couchbase's new columnar data store functionality, specific use cases for columnar data stores, and why AI gets better when it communicates with a cleaner pool of data. Jeff shares how more responsive databases could allow businesses like Dominos and United Airlines to create hyper-personalized experiences for their customers by utilizing more responsive databases. Jeff dives into the linked future of AI and data, and Corey learns about Couchbase's plans for the re:Invent conference. If you're attending re:Invent, you can visit Couchbase at booth 1095.About JeffJeff Morris is VP Product & Solutions Marketing at Couchbase (NASDAQ: BASE), a cloud database platform company that 30% of the Fortune 100 depend on.Links Referenced:Couchbase: https://www.couchbase.com/TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This promoted guest episode of Screaming in the Cloud is brought to us by our friends at Couchbase. Also brought to us by Couchbase is today's victim, for lack of a better term. Jeff Morris is their VP of Product and Solutions Marketing. Jeff, thank you for joining me.Jeff: Thanks for having me, Corey, even though I guess I paid for it.Corey: Exactly. It's always great to say thank you when people give you things. I learned this from a very early age, and the only people who didn't were rude children and turned into worse adults.Jeff: Exactly.Corey: So, you are effectively announcing something new today, and I always get worried when a database company says that because sometimes it's a license that is going to upset people, sometimes it's dyed so deep in the wool of generative AI that, “Oh, we're now supporting vectors or whatnot.” Well, most of us don't know what that means.Jeff: Right.Corey: Fortunately, I don't believe that's what you're doing today. What have you got for us?Jeff: So, you're right. It's—well, what I'm doing is, we're announcing new stuff inside of Couchbase and helping Couchbase expand its market footprint, but we're not really moving away from our sweet spot, either, right? We like building—or being the database platform underneath applications. So, push us on the operational side of the operational versus analytic, kind of, database divide. But we are announcing a columnar data store inside of the Couchbase platform so that we can build bigger, better, stronger analytic functionality to feed the applications that we're supporting with our customers.Corey: Now, I feel like I should ask a question around what a columnar data store is because my first encounter with the term was when I had a very early client for AWS bill optimization when I was doing this independently, and I was asking them the… polite question of, “Why do you have 283 billion objects in a single S3 bucket? That is atypical and kind of terrifying.” And their answer was, “Oh, we built our own columnar data store on top of S3. This might not have been the best approach.” It's like, “I'm going to stop you there. With no further information, I can almost guarantee you that it was not.” But what is a columnar data store?Jeff: Well, let's start with the, everybody loves more data and everybody loves to count more things, right, but a columnar data store allows you to expedite the kind of question that you ask of the data itself by not having to look at every single row of the data while you go through it. You can say, if you know you're only looking for data that's inside of California, you just look at the column value of find me everything in California and then I'll pick all of those records to analyze. So, it gives you a faster way to go through the data while you're trying to gather it up and perform aggregations against it.Corey: It seems like it's one of those, “Well, that doesn't sound hard,” type of things, when you're thinking about it the way that I do, in terms of a database being more or less a medium to large size Excel spreadsheet. But I have it on good faith from all the customer environments. I've worked with that no, no, there are data stores that span even larger than that, which is, you know, one of those sad realities of the world. And everything at scale begins to be a heck of a lot harder. I've seen some of the value that this stuff offers and I can definitely understand a few different workloads in which case that's going to be super handy. What are you targeting specifically? Or is this one of those areas where you're going to learn from your customers?Jeff: Well, we've had analytic functionality inside the platform. It just, at the size and scale customers actually wanted to roam through the data, we weren't supporting that that much. So, we'll expand that particular footprint, it'll give us better integration capabilities with external systems, or better access to things in your bucket. But the use case problem is, I think, going to be driven by what new modern application requirements are going to be. You're going to need, we call it hyper-personalization because we tend to cater to B2C-style applications, things with a lot of account profiles built into them.So, you look at account profile, and you're like, “Oh, well Jeff likes blue, so sell him blue stuff.” And that's a great current level personalization, but with a new analytic engine against this, you can maybe start aggregating all the inventory information that you might have of all the blue stuff that you want to sell me and do that in real-time, so I'm getting better recommendations, better offers as I'm shopping on your site or looking at my phone and, you know, looking for the next thing I want to buy.Corey: I'm sure there's massive amounts of work that goes into these hyper-personalization stories. The problem is that the only time they really rise to our notice is when they fail hilariously. Like, you just bought a TV, would you like to buy another? Now statistically, you are likelier to buy a second TV right after you buy one, but for someone who just, “Well, I'm replacing my living room TV after ten years,” it feels ridiculous. Or when you buy a whole bunch of nails and they don't suggest, “Would you like to also perhaps buy a hammer?”It's one of those areas where it just seems like a human putting thought into this could make some sense. But I've seen some of the stuff that can come out of systems like this and it can be incredible. I also personally tend to bias towards use cases that are less, here's how to convince you to buy more things and start aiming in a bunch of other different directions where it starts meeting emerging use cases or changing situations rapidly, more rapidly than a human can in some cases. The world has, for better or worse, gotten an awful lot faster over the last few decades.Jeff: Yeah. And think of it in terms of how responsive can I be at any given moment. And so, let's pick on one of the more recent interesting failures that has popped up. I'm a Giants fan, San Francisco Giants fan, so I'll pick on the Dodgers. The Dodgers during the baseball playoffs, Clayton Kershaw—three-time MVP, Cy Young Award winner, great, great pitcher—had a first-inning meltdown of colossal magnitude: gave up 11 runs in the first inning to the Diamondbacks.Well, my customer Domino's Pizza could end up—well, let's shift the focus of our marketing. We—you know, the Dodgers are the best team in baseball this year in the National League—let's focus our attention there, but with that meltdown, let's pivot to Arizona and focus on our market in Phoenix. And they could do that within minutes or seconds, even, with the kinds of capabilities that we're coming up with here so that they can make better offers to that new environment and also do the decision intelligence behind it. Like, do I have enough dough to make a bigger offer in that big market? Do I have enough drivers or do I have to go and spin out and get one of the other food delivery folks—UberEats, or something like that—to jump on board with me and partner up on this kind of system?It's that responsiveness in real, real-time, right, that's always been kind of the conundrum between applications and analytics. You get an analytic insight, but it takes you an hour or a day to incorporate that into what the application is doing. This is intended to make all of that stuff go faster. And of course, when we start to talk about things in AI, right, AI is going to expect real-time responsiveness as best you can make it.Corey: I figure we have to talk about AI. That is a technology that has absolutely sprung to the absolute peak of the hype curve over the past year. OpenAI released Chat-Gippity, either late last year or early this year and suddenly every company seems to be falling all over itself to rebrand itself as an AI company, where, “We've been working on this for decades,” they say, right before they announce something that very clearly was crash-developed in six months. And every company is trying to drape themselves in the mantle of AI. And I don't want to sound like I'm a doubter here. I'm like most fans; I see an awful lot of value here. But I am curious to get your take on what do you think is real and what do you think is not in the current hype environment.Jeff: So yeah, I love that. I think there's a number of things that are, you know, are real is, it's not going away. It is going to continue to evolve and get better and better and better. One of my analyst friends came up with the notion that the exercise of generative AI, it's imprecise, so it gives you similarity things, and that's actually an improvement, in many cases, over the precision of a database. Databases, a transaction either works or it doesn't. It has failover or it doesn't, when—Corey: It's ideally deterministic when you ask it a question—Jeff: Yes.Corey: —the same question a second time, assuming it's not time-bound—Jeff: Gives you the right answer.Corey: Yeah, the sa—or at least the same answer.Jeff: The same answer. And your gen AI may not. So, that's a part of the oddity of the hype. But then it also helps me kind of feed our storyline of if you're going to try and make Gen AI closer and more accurate, you need a clean pool of data that you're dealing with, even though you've got probably—your previous design was such that you would use a relational database for transactions, a document database for your user profiles, you'd probably attach your website to a caching database because you needed speed and a lot of concurrency. Well, now you got three different databases there that you're operating.And if you're feeding data from each of those databases back to AI, one of them might be wrong or one of them might confuse the AI, yet how are you going to know? The complexity level is going to become, like, exponential. So, our premise is, because we're a multi-modal database that incorporates in-memory speed and documents and search and transactions and the like, if you start with a cleaner pool of data, you'll have less complexity that you're offering to your AI system and therefore you can steer it into becoming more accurate in its response. And then, of course, all the data that we're dealing with is on mobile, right? Data is created there for, let's say, your account profile, and then it's also consumed there because that's what people are using as their application interface of choice.So, you also want to have mobile interactivity and synchronization and local storage, kind of, capabilities built in there. So, those are kind of, you know, a couple of the principles that we're looking at of, you know, JSON is going to be a great format for it regardless of what happens; complexity is kind of the enemy of AI, so you don't want to go there; and mobility is going to be an absolute requirement. And then related to this particular announcement, large-scale aggregation is going to be a requirement to help feed the application. There's always going to be some other bigger calculation that you're going to want to do relatively in real time and feed it back to your users or the AI system that's helping them out.Corey: I think that that is a much more nuanced use case than a lot of the stuff that's grabbing customer attentions where you effectively have the Chat-Gippity story of it being an incredible parrot. Where I have run into trouble with the generative story has been people putting the thing that the robot that's magic and from the future has come up with off the cuff and just hurling that out into the universe under their own name without any human review, and that's fine sometimes sure, but it does get it hilariously wrong at some points. And the idea of sending something out under my name that has not been at least reviewed by me if not actually authored by me, is abhorrent. I mean, I review even the transactional, “Yes, you have successfully subscribed,” or, “Sorry to see you go,” email confirmations on stuff because there's an implicit, “Hugs and puppies, love Corey,” at the end of everything that goes out under my name.Jeff: Right.Corey: But I've gotten a barrage of terrible sales emails and companies that are trying to put the cart before the horse where either the, “Support rep,” quote-unquote, that I'm speaking to in the chat is an AI system or else needs immediate medical attention because there's something going on that needs assistance.Jeff: Yeah, they just don't understand.Corey: Right. And most big enterprise stories that I've heard so far that have come to light have been around the form of, “We get to fire most of our customer service staff,” an outcome that basically no one sensible wants. That is less compelling than a lot of the individualized consumer use cases. I love asking it, “Here's a blog post I wrote. Give me ten title options.” And I'll usually take one of them—one of them is usually not half bad and then I can modify it slightly.Jeff: And you'll change four words in it. Yeah.Corey: Yeah, exactly. That's a bit of a different use case.Jeff: It's been an interesting—even as we've all become familiar—or at least junior prompt engineers, right—is, your information is only going to be as good as you feed the AI system—the return is only going to be as good—so you're going to want to refine that kind of conversation. Now, we're not trying to end up replacing the content that gets produced or the writing of all kinds of pros, other than we do have a code generator that works inside of our environment called Capella iQ that talks to ChatGPT, but we try and put guardrails on that too, right, as always make sure that it's talking in terms of the context of Couchbase rather than, “Where's Taylor Swift this week,” which I don't want it to answer because I don't want to spend GPT money to answer that question for you.Corey: And it might not know the right answer, but it might very well spit out something that sounds plausible.Jeff: Exactly. But I think the kinds of applications that we're steering ourselves toward can be helped along by the Gen AI systems, but I don't expect all my customers are going to be writing automatic blog post generation kinds of applications. I think what we're ultimately trying to do is facilitate interactions in a way that we haven't dreamt of yet, right? One of them might be if I've opted into to loyalty programs, like my United account and my American Express account—Corey: That feels very targeted at my lifestyle as well, so please, continue.Jeff: Exactly, right? And so, what I really want the system to do is for Amex to reward me when I hit 1k status on United while I'm on the flight and you know, have the flight attendant come up and be like, “Hey, you did it. Either, here's a free upgrade from American Express”—that would be hyper-personalization because you booked your plane ticket with it, but they also happen to know or they cross-consumed information that I've opted into.Corey: I've seen them congratulate people for hitting a million miles flown mid-flight, but that's clearly something that they've been tracking and happens a heck of a lot less frequently. This is how you start scaling that experience.Jeff: Yes. But that happened because American Airlines was always watching because that was an American Airlines ad ages ago, right, but the same principle holds true. But I think there's going to be a lot more of these: how much information am I actually allowing to be shared amongst the, call it loyalty programs, but the data sources that I've opted into. And my God, there's hundreds of them that I've personally opted into, whether I like it or not because everybody needs my email address, kind of like what you were describing earlier.Corey: A point that I have that I think agrees largely with your point is that few things to me are more frustrating than what I'm signing up, for example, oh, I don't know, an AWS even—gee, I can't imagine there's anything like that going on this week—and I have to fill out an entire form that always asked me the same questions: how big my company is, whether we have multiple workloads on, what industry we're in. And no matter what I put into that, first, it never remembers me for the next time, which is frustrating in its own right, but two, no matter what I put in to fill that thing out, the email I get does not change as a result. At one point, I said, all right—I'm picking randomly—“I am a venture capitalist based in Sweden,” and I got nothing that is differentiated from the other normal stuff I get tied to my account because I use a special email address for those things, sometimes just to see what happens. And no, if you're going to make me jump through the hoops to give you the data, at least use it to make my experience better. It feels like I'm asking for the moon here, but I shouldn't be.Jeff: Yes. [we need 00:16:19] to make your experience better and say, you know, “Here's four companies in Malmo that you ought to be talking to. And they happen to be here at the AWS event and you can go find them because their booth is here, here, and here.” That kind of immediate responsiveness could be facilitated, and to our point, ought to be facilitated. It's exactly like that kind of thing is, use the data in real-time.I was talking to somebody else today that was discussing that most data, right, becomes stale and unvaluable, like, 50% of the data, its value goes to zero after about a day. And some of it is stale after about an hour. So, if you can end up closing that responsiveness gap that we were describing—and this is kind of what this columnar service inside of Capella is going to be like—is react in real-time with real-time calculation and real-time look-up and real-time—find out how you might apply that new piece of information right now and then give it back to the consumer or the user right now.Corey: So, Couchbase takes a few different forms. I should probably, at least for those who are not steeped in the world of exotic forms of database, I always like making these conversations more accessible to folks who are not necessarily up to speed. Personally, I tend to misuse anything as a database, if I can hold it just the wrong way.Jeff: The wrong way. I've caught that about you.Corey: Yeah, it's—everything is a database if you hold it wrong. But you folks have a few different options: you have a self-managed commercial offering; you're an open-source project, so I can go ahead and run it on my own infrastructure however I want; and you have Capella, which is Couchbase as a service. And all of those are useful and have their points, and I'm sure I'm missing at least one or two along the way. But do you find that the columnar use case is going to disproportionately benefit folks using Capella in ways that the self-hosted version would not be as useful for, or is this functionality already available in other expressions of Couchbase?Jeff: It's not already available in other expressions, although there is analytic functionality in the self-managed version of Couchbase. But it's, as I've mentioned I think earlier, it's just not as scalable or as really real-time as far as we're thinking. So, it's going to—yes, it's going to benefit the database as a service deployments of Couchbase available on your favorite three clouds, and still interoperable with environments that you might self-manage and self-host. So, there could be even use cases where our development team or your development team builds in AWS using the cloud-oriented features, but is still ultimately deploying and hosting and managing a self-managed environment. You could still do all of that. So, there's still a great interplay and interoperability amongst our different deployment options.But the fun part, I think, about this is not only is it going to help the Capella user, there's a lot of other things inside Couchbase that help address the developers' penchant for trading zero-cost for degrees of complexity that you're willing to accept because you want everything to be free and open-source. And Couchbase is my fifth open-source company in my background, so I'm well, well versed in the nuances of what open-source developers are seeking. But what makes Couchbase—you know, its origin story really cool too, though, is it's the peanut butter and chocolate marriage of memcached and the people behind that and membase and CouchDB from [Couch One 00:19:54]. So, I can't think of that many—maybe Red Hat—project and companies that formed up by merging two complementary open-source projects. So, we took the scale and—Corey: You have OpenTelemetry, I think, that did that once, but that—you see occasional mergers, but it's very far from common.Jeff: But it's very, very infrequent. But what that made the Couchbase people end up doing is make a platform that will scale, make a data design that you can auto partition anywhere, anytime, and then build independently scalable services on top of that, one for SQL++, the query language. Anyone who knows SQL will be able to write something in Couchbase immediately. And I've got this AI Automator, iQ, that makes it even easier; you just say, “Write me a SQL++ query that does this,” and it'll do that. But then we added full-text search, we added eventing so you can stream data, we added the analytics capability originally and now we're enhancing it, and use JSON as our kind of universal data format so that we can trade data with applications really easily.So, it's a cool design to start with, and then in the cloud, we're steering towards things like making your entry point and using our database as a service—Capella—really, really, really inexpensive so that you get that same robustness of functionality, as well as the easy cost of entry that today's developers want. And it's my analyst friends that keep telling me the cloud is where the markets going to go, so we're steering ourselves towards that hockey puck location.Corey: I frequently remark that the role of the DBA might not be vanishing, but it's definitely changing, especially since the last time I counted, if you hold them and use as directed, AWS has something on the order of 14 distinct managed database offerings. Some are general purpose, some are purpose-built, and if this trend keeps up, in a decade, the DBA role is going to be determining which of its 40 databases is going to be the right fit for a given workload. That seems to be the counter-approach to a general-purpose database that works across the board. Clearly you folks have opinions on this. Where do you land?Jeff: Oh, so absolutely. There's the product that is a suite of capabilities—or that are individual capabilities—and then there's ones that are, in my case, kind of multi-model and do lots of things at once. I think historically, you'll recognize—because this is—let's pick on your phone—the same holds true for, you know, your phone used to be a watch, used to be a Palm Pilot, used to be a StarTAC telephone, and your calendar application, your day planner all at the same time. Well, it's not anymore. Technology converges upon itself; it's kind of a historical truism.And the database technologies are going to end up doing that—or continue to do that, even right now. So, that notion that—it's a ten-year-old notion of use a purpose-built database for that particular workload. Maybe sometimes in extreme cases that is the appropriate thing, but in more cases than not right now, if you need transactions when you need them, that's fine, I can do that. You don't necessarily need Aurora or RDS or Postgres to do that. But when you need search and geolocation, I support that too, so you don't need Elastic. And then when you need caching and everything, you don't need ElastiCache; it's all built-in.So, that multi-model notion of operate on the same pool of data, it's a lot less complex for your developers, they can code faster and better and more cleanly, debugging is significantly easier. As I mentioned, SQL++ is our language. It's basically SQL syntax for JSON. We're a reference implementation of this language, along with—[AsteriskDB 00:23:42] is one of them, and actually, the original author of that language also wrote DynamoDB's PartiQL.So, it's a common language that you wouldn't necessarily imagine, but the ease of entry in all of this, I think, is still going to be a driving goal for people. The old people like me and you are running around worrying about, am I going to get a particular, really specific feature out of the full-text search environment, or the other one that I pick on now is, “Am I going to need a vector database, too?” And the answer to me is no, right? There's going—you know, the database vendors like ourselves—and like Mongo has announced and a whole bunch of other NoSQL vendors—we're going to support that. It's going to be just another mode, and you get better bang for your buck when you've got more modes than a single one at a time.Corey: The consensus opinion that's emerging is very much across the board that vector is a feature, not a database type.Jeff: Not a category, yeah. Me too. And yeah, we're well on board with that notion, as well. And then like I said earlier, the JSON as a vehicle to give you all of that versatility is great, right? You can have vector information inside a JSON document, you can have time series information in the document, you could have graph node locations and ID numbers in a JSON array, so you don't need index-free adjacency or some of the other cleverness that some of my former employers have done. It really is all converging upon itself and hopefully everybody starts to realize that you can clean up and simplify your architectures as you look ahead, so that you do—if you're going to build AI-powered applications—feed it clean data, right? You're going to be better off.Corey: So, this episode is being recorded in advance, thankfully, but it's going to release the first day of re:Invent. What are you folks doing at the show, for those who are either there and for some reason, listening to a podcast rather than going to getting marketed to by a variety of different pitches that all mention AI or might even be watching from home and trying to figure out what to make of it?Jeff: Right. So, of course we have a booth, and my notes don't have in front of me what our booth number is, but you'll see it on the signs in the airport. So, we'll have a presence there, we'll have an executive briefing room available, so we can schedule time with anyone who wants to come talk to us. We'll be showing not only the capabilities that we're offering here, we'll show off Capella iQ, our coding assistant, okay—so yeah, we're on the AI hype band—but we'll also be showing things like our mobile sync capability where my phone and your phone can synchronize data amongst themselves without having to actually have a live connection to the internet. So, long as we're on the same network locally within the Venetian's network, we have an app that we have people download from the Apple Store and then it's a color synchronization app or picture synchronization app.So, you tap it, and it changes on my screen and I tap it and it changes on your screen, and we'll have, I don't know, as many people who are around standing there, synchronizing, what, maybe 50 phones at a time. It's actually a pretty slick demonstration of why you might want a database that's not only in the cloud but operates around the cloud, operates mobile-ly, operates—you know, can connect and disconnect to your networks. It's a pretty neat scenario. So, we'll be showing a bunch of cool technical stuff as well as talking about the things that we're discussing right now.Corey: I will say you're putting an awful lot of faith in conductivity working at re:Invent, be it WiFi or the cellular network. I know that both of those have bitten me in various ways over the years. But I wish you the best on it. I think it's going to be an interesting show based upon everything I've heard in the run-up to it. I'm just glad it's here.Jeff: Now, this is the cool part about what I'm talking about, though. The cool part about what I'm talking about is we can set up our own wireless network in our booth, and we still—you'd have to go to the app store to get this application, but once there, I can have you switch over to my local network and play around on it and I can sync the stuff right there and have confidence that in my local network that's in my booth, the system's working. I think that's going to be ultimately our design there because oh my gosh, yes, I have a hundred stories about connectivity and someone blowing a demo because they're yanking on a cable behind the pulpit, right?Corey: I always build in a—and assuming there's no connectivity, how can I fake my demos, just because it's—I've only had to do it once, but you wind up planning in advance when you start doing a talk to a large enough or influential enough audience where you want things to go right.Jeff: There's a delightful acceptance right now of recorded videos and demonstrations that people sort of accept that way because of exactly all this. And I'm sure we'll be showing that in our booth there too.Corey: Given the non-deterministic nature of generative AI, I'm sort of surprised whenever someone hasn't mocked the demo in advance, just because yeah, gives the right answer in the rehearsal, but every once in a while, it gets completely unglued.Jeff: Yes, and we see it pretty regularly. So, the emergence of clever and good prompt engineering is going to be a big skill for people. And hopefully, you know, everybody's going to figure out how to pass it along to their peers.Corey: Excellent. We'll put links to all this in the show notes, and I look forward to seeing how well this works out for you. Best of luck at the show and thanks for speaking with me. I appreciate it.Jeff: Yeah, Corey. We appreciate the support, and I think the show is going to be very strong for us as well. And thanks for having me here.Corey: Always a pleasure. Jeff Morris, VP of Product and Solutions Marketing at Couchbase. This episode has been brought to us by our friends at Couchbase. And I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment, but if you want to remain happy, I wouldn't ask that podcast platform what database they're using. No one likes the answer to those things.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Jeff Geerling, Owner of Midwestern Mac, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss the importance of storytelling, problem-solving, and community in the world of cloud. Jeff shares how and why he creates content that can appeal to anybody, rather than focusing solely on the technical qualifications of his audience, and how that strategy has paid off for him. Corey and Jeff also discuss the impact of leading with storytelling as opposed to features in product launches, and what's been going on in the Raspberry Pi space recently. Jeff also expresses the impact that community has on open-source companies, and reveals his take on the latest moves from Red Hat and Hashicorp. About JeffJeff is a father, author, developer, and maker. He is sometimes called "an inflammatory enigma".Links Referenced:Personal webpage: https://jeffgeerling.com/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. A bit off the beaten path of the usual cloud-focused content on this show, today I'm speaking with Jeff Geerling, YouTuber, author, content creator, enigma, and oh, so much more. Jeff, thanks for joining me.Jeff: Thanks for having me, Corey.Corey: So, it's hard to figure out where you start versus where you stop, but I do know that as I've been exploring a lot of building up my own home lab stuff, suddenly you are right at the top of every Google search that I wind up conducting. I was building my own Kubernete on top of a Turing Pi 2, and sure enough, your teardown was the first thing that I found that, to be direct, was well-documented, and made it understandable. And that's not the first time this year that that's happened to me. What do you do exactly?Jeff: I mean, I do everything. And I started off doing web design and then I figured that design is very, I don't know, once it started transitioning to everything being JavaScript, that was not my cup of tea. So, I got into back-end work, databases, and then I realized to make that stuff work well, you got to know the infrastructure. So, I got into that stuff. And then I realized, like, my home lab is a great place to experiment on this, so I got into Raspberry Pis, low-power computing efficiency, building your own home lab, all that kind of stuff.So, all along the way, with everything I do, I always, like, document everything like crazy. That's something my dad taught me. He's an engineer in radio. And he actually hired me for my first job, he had me write an IT operations manual for the Radio Group in St. Louis. And from that point forward, that's—I always start with documentation. So, I think that was probably what really triggered that whole series. It happens to me too; I search for something, I find my old articles or my own old projects on GitHub or blog posts because I just put everything out there.Corey: I was about to ask, years ago, I was advised by Scott Hanselman to—the third time I find myself explaining something, write a blog post about it because it's easier to refer people back to that thing than it is for me to try and reconstruct it on the fly, and I'll drop things here and there. And the trick is, of course, making sure it doesn't sound dismissive and like, “Oh, I wrote a thing. Go read.” Instead of having a conversation with people. But as a result, I'll be Googling how to do things from time to time and come up with my own content as a result.It's at least a half-step up from looking at forums and the rest, where I realized halfway through that I was the one asking the question. Like, “Oh, well, at least this is useful for someone.” And I, for better or worse, at least have a pattern of going back and answering how I solved a thing after I get there, just because otherwise, it's someone asked the question ten years ago and never returns, like, how did you solve it? What did you do? It's good to close that loop.Jeff: Yeah, and I think over 50% of what I do, I've done before. When you're setting up a Kubernetes cluster, there's certain parts of it that you're going to do every time. So, whatever's not automated or the tricky bits, I always document those things. Anything that is not in the readme, is not in the first few steps, because that will help me and will help others. I think that sometimes that's the best success I've found on YouTube is also just sharing an experience.And I think that's what separates some of the content that really drives growth on a YouTube channel or whatever, or for an organization doing it because you bring the experience, like, I'm a new person to this Home Assistant, for instance, which I use to automate things at my house. I had problems with it and I just shared those problems in my video, and that video has, you know, hundreds of thousands of views. Whereas these other people who know way more than I could ever know about Home Assistant, they're pulling in fewer views because they just get into a tutorial and don't have that perspective of a beginner or somebody that runs into an issue and how do you solve that issue.So, like I said, I mean, I just always share that stuff. Every time that I have an issue with anything technological, I put it on GitHub somewhere. And then eventually, if it's something that I can really formulate into an outline of what I did, I put a blog post up on my blog. I still, even though I write I don't know how many words per week that goes into my YouTube videos or into my books or anything, I still write two or three blog posts a week that are often pretty heavy into technical detail.Corey: One of the challenges I've always had is figuring out who exactly I'm storytelling for when I'm putting something out there. Because there's a plethora, at least in cloud, of beginner content of, here's how to think about cloud, here's what the service does, here's why you should use it et cetera, et cetera. And that's all well and good, but often the things that I'm focusing on presuppose a certain baseline level of knowledge that you should have going into this. If you're trying to figure out the best way to get some service configured, I probably shouldn't have to spend the first half of the article talking about what AWS is, as a for instance. And I think that inherently limits the size of the potential audience that would be interested in the content, but it's also the kind of stuff that I wish was out there.Jeff: Yeah. There's two sides to that, too. One is, you can make content that appeals to anybody, even if they have no clue what you're talking about, or you can make content that appeals to the narrow audience that knows the base level of understanding you need. So, a lot of times with—especially on my YouTube channel, I'll put things in that is just irrelevant to 99% of the population, but I get so many comments, like, “I have no clue what you said or what you're doing, but this looks really cool.” Like, “This is fun or interesting.” Just because, again, it's bringing that story into it.Because really, I think on a base level, a lot of programmers especially don't understand—and infrastructure engineers are off the deep end on this—they don't understand the interpersonal nature of what makes something good or not, what makes something relatable. And trying to bring that into technical documentation a lot of times is what differentiates a project. So, one of the products I love and use and recommend everywhere and have a book on—a best-selling book—is Ansible. And one of the things that brought me into it and has brought so many people is the documentation started—it's gotten a little bit more complex over the years—but it started out as, “Here's some problems. Here's how you solve them.”Here's, you know, things that we all run into, like how do you connect to 12 servers at the same time? How do you have groups of servers? Like, it showed you all these little examples. And then if you wanted to go deeper, there was more documentation linked out of that. But it was giving you real-world scenarios and doing it in a simple way. And it used some little easter eggs and fun things that made it more interesting, but I think that that's missing from a lot of technical discussion and a lot of technical documentation out there is that playfulness, that human side, the get from Point A to Point B and here's why and here's how, but here's a little interesting way to do it instead of just here's how it's done.Corey: In that same era, I was one of the very early developers behind SaltStack, and I think one of the reasons that Ansible won in the market was that when you started looking into SaltStack, it got wrapped around its own axle talking about how it uses ZeroMQ for a full mesh between all of the systems there, as long—sorry [unintelligible 00:07:39] mesh network that all routes—not really a mesh network at all—it talks through a single controller that then talks to all of its subordinate nodes. Great. That's awesome. How do I use this to install a web server, is the question that people had. And it was so in love with its own cleverness in some ways. Ansible was always much more approachable in that respect and I can't understate just how valuable that was for someone who just wants to get the problem solved.Jeff: Yeah. I also looked at something like NixOS. It's kind of like the arch of distributions of—Corey: You must be at least this smart to use it in some respects—Jeff: Yeah, it's—Corey: —has been the every documentation I've had with that.Jeff: [laugh]. There's, like, this level of pride in what it does, that doesn't get to ‘and it solves this problem.' You can get there, but you have to work through the barrier of, like, we're so much better, or—I don't know what—it's not that. Like, it's just it doesn't feel like, “You're new to this and here's how you can solve a problem today, right now.” It's more like, “We have this golden architecture and we want you to come up to it.” And it's like, well, but I'm not ready for that. I'm just this random developer trying to solve the problem.Corey: Right. Like, they should have someone hanging out in their IRC channel and just watch for a week of who comes in and what questions do they have when they're just getting started and address those. Oh, you want to wind up just building a Nix box EC2 for development? Great, here's how you do that, and here's how to think about your workflow as you go. Instead, I found that I had to piece it together from a bunch of different blog posts and the rest and each one supposed that I had different knowledge coming into it than the others. And I felt like I was getting tangled up very easily.Jeff: Yeah, and I think it's telling that a lot of people pick up new technology through blog posts and Substack and Medium and whatever [Tedium 00:09:19], all these different platforms because it's somebody that's solving a problem and relating that problem, and then you have the same problem. A lot of times in the documentation, they don't take that approach. They're more like, here's all our features and here's how to use each feature, but they don't take a problem-based approach. And again, I'm harping on Ansible here with how good the documentation was, but it took that approach is you have a bunch of servers, you want to manage them, you want to install stuff on them, and all the examples flowed from that. And then you could get deeper into the direct documentation of how things worked.As a polar opposite of that, in a community that I'm very much involved in still—well, not as much as I used to be—is Drupal. Their documentation was great for developers but not so great for beginners and that was always—it still is a difficulty in that community. And I think it's a difficulty in many, especially open-source communities where you're trying to build the community, get more people interested because that's where the great stuff comes from. It doesn't come from one corporation that controls it, it comes from the community of users who are passionate about it. And it's also tough because for something like Drupal, it gets more complex over time and the complexity kind of kills off the initial ability to think, like, wow, this is a great little thing and I can get into it and start using it.And a similar thing is happening with Ansible, I think. We were at when I got started, there were a couple hundred modules. Now there's, like, 4000 modules, or I don't know how many modules, and there's all these collections, and there's namespaces now, all these things that feel like Java overhead type things leaking into it. And that diminishes that ability for me to see, like, oh, this is my simple tool that solving these problems.Corey: I think that that is a lost art in the storytelling side of even cloud marketing, where they're so wrapped around how they do what they do that they forget, customers don't care. Customers care very much about their problem that they're trying to solve. If you have an answer for solving that problem, they're very interested. Otherwise, they do not care. That seems to be a missing gap.Jeff: I think, like, especially for AWS, Google, Azure cloud platforms, when they build their new services, sometimes you're, like, “And that's for who?” For some things, it's so specialized, like, Snowmobile from Amazon, like, there's only a couple customers on the planet in a given year that needs something like that. But it's a cool story, so it's great to put that into your presentation. But some other things, like, especially nowadays with AI, seems like everybody's throwing tons of AI stuff—spaghetti—at the wall, seeing what will stick and then that's how they're doing it. But that really muddies up everything.If you have a clear vision, like with Apple, they just had their presentation on the new iPhone and the new neural engine and stuff, they talk about, “We see your heart patterns and we tell you when your heart is having problems.” They don't talk about their AI features or anything. I think that leading with that story and saying, like, here's how we use this, here's how customers can build off of it, those stories are the ones that are impactful and make people remember, like, oh Apple is the company that saves people's lives by making watches that track their heart. People don't think that about Google, even though they might have the same feature. Google says we have all these 75 sensors in our thing and we have this great platform and Android and all that. But they don't lead with the story.And that's something where I think corporate Apple is better than some of the other organizations, no matter what the technology is. But I get that feeling a lot when I'm watching launches from Amazon and Google and all their big presentations. It seems like they're tech-heavy and they're driven by, like, “What could we do with this? What could you do with this new platform that we're building,” but not, “And this is what we did with this other platform,” kind of building up through that route.Corey: Something I've been meaning to ask someone who knows for a while, and you are very clearly one of those people, I spend a lot of time focusing on controlling cloud costs and I used to think that Managed NAT Gateways were very expensive. And then I saw the current going rates for Raspberries Pi. And that has been a whole new level of wild. I mean, you mentioned a few minutes ago that you use Home Assistant. I do too.But I was contrasting the price between a late model, Raspberry Pi 4—late model; it's three years old if this point of memory serves, maybe four—versus a used small form factor PC from HP, and the second was less expensive and far more capable. Yeah it drags a bit more power and it's a little bit larger on the shelf, but it was basically no contest. What has been going on in that space?Jeff: I think one of the big things is we're at a generational improvement with those small form-factor little, like, tiny-size almost [nook-sized 00:13:59] PCs that were used all over the place in corporate environments. I still—like every doctor's office you go to, every hospital, they have, like, a thousand of these things. So, every two or three or four years, however long it is on their contract, they just pop all those out the door and then you get an E-waste company that picks up a thousand of these boxes and they got to offload them. So, the nice thing is that it seems like a year or two ago, that really started accelerating to the point where the price was driven down below 100 bucks for a fully built-out little x86 Mini PC. Sure, it's, you know, like you said, a few generations old and it pulls a little bit more power, usually six to eight watts at least, versus a Raspberry Pi at two to three watts, but especially for those of us in the US, electricity is not that expensive so adding two or three watts to your budget for a home lab computer is not that bad.The other part of that is, for the past two-and-a-half years because of the global chip shortages and because of the decisions that Raspberry Pi made, there were so few Raspberry Pis available that their prices shot up through the roof if you wanted to get one in any timely fashion. So, that finally is clearing up, although I went to the Micro Center near me yesterday, and they said that they have not had stock of Raspberry Pi 4s for, like, two months now. So, they're coming, but they're not distributed evenly everywhere. And still, the best answer, especially if you're going to run a lot of things on it, is probably to buy one of those little mini PCs if you're starting out a home lab.Or there's some other content creators who build little Kubernetes clusters with multiple mini PCs. Three of those stack up pretty nicely and they're still super quiet. I think they're great for home labs. I have two of them over on my shelf that I'm using for testing and one of them is actually in my rack. And I have another one on my desk here that I'm trying to set up for a five gigabit home router since I finally got fiber internet after years with cable and I'm still stuck on my old gigabit router.Corey: Yeah, I wound up switching to a Protectli, I think is what it's called for—it's one of those things I've installed pfSense on. Which, I'm an old FreeBSD hand and I haven't kept up with it, but that's okay. It feels like going back in time ten years, in some respects—Jeff: [laugh].Corey: —so all right. And I have a few others here and there for various things that I want locally. But invariably, I've had the WiFi controller; I've migrated that off. That lives on an EC2 box in Ohio now. And I do wind up embracing cloud services when I don't want it to go down and be consistently available, but for small stuff locally, I mean, I have an antenna on the roof doing an ADS-B receiver dance that's plugged into a Pi Zero.I have some backlogged stuff on this, but they've gotten expensive as alternatives have dropped in price significantly. But what I'm finding as I'm getting more into 3D printing and a lot of hobbyist maker tools out there, everything is built with the Raspberry Pi in mind; it has the mindshare. And yeah, I can get something with similar specs that are equivalent, but then I've got to do a whole bunch of other stuff as soon as it gets into controlling hardware via GPIO pins or whatnot. And I have to think about it very differently.Jeff: Yeah, and that's the tough thing. And that's the reason why Raspberry Pis, even though they're three years old, even though they're hard to get, they still are fetching—on the used market—way more than the original MSRP. It's just crazy. But the reason for that is the Raspberry Pi organization. And there's two: there's the Raspberry Pi Foundation that's goals are to increase educational computing and accessibility for computers for kids and learning and all that, then there's the Raspberry Pi trading company that makes the Raspberry Pis.The Trading Company has engineers who sit there 24/7 working on the software, working on the kernel drivers, working on hardware bugs, listening to people on the forums and in GitHub and everywhere, and they're all English-speaking people there—they're over in the UK—and they manufacture their own boards. So, there's a lot of things on top of that, even though they're using some silicons of Broadcom chips that are a little bit locked down and not completely open-source like some other chips might be, they're a phone number you could call if you need the support or there's a forum that has activity that you can get help in and their software that's supported. And there's a newer Linux kernel and the kernel is updated all the time. So, all those advantages mean you get a little package that will work, it'll sip two watts of power, sitting 24/7. It's reliable hardware.There's so many people that use it that it's so well tested that almost any problem you could ever run into, someone else has and there's a blog post or a forum post talking about it. And even though the hardware is not super powerful—it's three years old—you can add on a Coral TPU and do face recognition and object recognition. And throw in Frigate for Home Assistant to get notifications on your phone when your mom walks up to the door. There's so many things you can do with them and they're so flexible that they're still so valuable. I think that they really knocked it out of the park with that model, the Raspberry Pi 4, and the compute module 4, which is still impossible to get. I have not been able to buy one for two years now. Luckily, I bought 12 two-and-a-half years ago [laugh] otherwise I would be running out for all my projects that I do.Corey: Yeah. I got two at the moment and two empty slots in the Turing Pi 2, which I'll care more about if I can actually get the thing up and booted. But it presupposes you have a Windows computer or otherwise, ehh, watch this space; more coming. Great. Like, do I build a virtual machine on top of something else? It leads down the path super quickly of places I thought I'd escaped from.Jeff: Yeah, you know, outside of the Pi realm, that's the state of the communities. It's a lot of, like, figuring out your own things. I did a project—I don't know if you've heard of Mr. Beast—but we did a project for him that involves a hundred single-board computers. We couldn't find Raspberry Pi's so we had to use a different single-board computer that was available.And so, I bought an older one thinking, oh, this is, like, three or four years old—it's older than the Pi 4—and there must be enough support now. But still, there's, like, little rough edges everywhere I went and we ended up making them work, but it took us probably an extra 30 to 40 hours of development work to get those things running the same way as a Raspberry Pi. And that's just the way of things. There's so much opportunity.If one of these Chinese manufacturers that makes most of these things, if one of them decided, you know what? We're going to throw tons of money into building support for these things, get some English-speaking members of these forums to build up the community, all that stuff, I think that they could have a shot at Raspberry Pi's giant portion of the market. But so far, I haven't really seen that happen. So far, they're spamming hardware. And it's like, the hardware is awesome. These chips are great if you know how to deal with them and how to get the software running and how to deal with Linux issues, but if you don't, then they're not great because you might not even get the thing to boot.Corey: I want to harken back to something you said a minute ago, where there's value in having a community around something, where you can see everyone else has already encountered a problem like this. I think that folks who weren't around for the rise of cloud have no real insight into how difficult it used to be just getting servers into racks and everything up, and okay, they're identical, and seven of them are working, but that eighth one isn't for some strange reason. And you spend four hours troubleshooting what turns out to be a bad cable or something not seated properly and it's awful. Cloud got away from a lot of that nonsense. But it's important—at least to me—to not be Captain Edgecase, where if you pick some new cloud provider and Google for how to set up a load balancer and no one's done it before you, that's not great. Whereas if I'm googling now in the AWS realm and no one has done, the thing I'm trying to do, that should be something of a cautionary flag of maybe this isn't how most people go about approaching production. Really think twice about this.Jeff: Yep. Yeah, we ran into that on a project I was working on was using Magento—which I don't know if anybody listening uses Magento, but it's not fun—and we ran into some things where it's like, “We're doing this, and it says that they do this on their official supported platform, but I don't know how they are because the code just doesn't exist here.” So, we ran into some weird edge cases on AWS with some massive infrastructure for the databases, and I ran into scaling issues. But even there, there were forum posts in AWS here and there that had little nuggets that helped us to figure out a way to get around it. And like you say, that is a massive advantage for AWS.And we ran into an issue with, we were one of the first customers trying out the new Lambda functions for RDS—or I don't remember exactly what it was called initially—but we ended up not using that. But we ran into some of these issues and figured out we were the first customer running into this weird scaling thing when we had a certain size of database trying to use it with these Lambda calls. And eventually, they got those things solved, but with AWS, they've seen so many things and some other cloud providers haven't seen these things. So, when you have certain types of applications that need to scale in certain ways, that is so valuable and the community of users, the ability to pull from that community when you need to hire somebody in an emergency, like, we need somebody to help us get this project done and we're having this issue, you can find somebody that is, like, okay, I know how to get you from Point A to Point B and get this project out the door. You can't do that on certain platforms.And open-source projects, too. We've always had that problem in Drupal. The amount of developers who are deep into Drupal to help with the hard problems is not vast, so the ones who can do that stuff, they're all hired off and paid a handsome sum. And if you have those kinds of problems you realize, I either going to need to pay a ton of money or we're just going to have to not do that thing that we wanted to do. And that's tough.Corey: What I've found, sort of across the board, has been that there's a lot of, I guess, open-source community ethos that has bled into a lot of this space and I wanted to make sure that we have time to talk about this because I was incensed a while back when Red Hat decided, “Oh, you know that whole ten-year commitment on CentOS? That project that we acquired and are now basically stabbing in the face?”—disclosure. I used to be part of the CentOS project years ago when I was on network staff for the Freenode IRC network—then it was, “Oh yeah, we're just going to basically undermine our commitments to you and now you can pay us if you want to get that support there.” And that really set me off. Was nice to see you were right there as well in almost lockstep with me, pointing out that this is terrible, just as far as breaking promises you've made to customers. Has your anger cooled any? Because mine hasn't.Jeff: It has not. My temper has cooled. My anger has not. I don't think that they get it. After all the backlash that they got after that, I don't think that the VP-level folks at Red Hat understand that this is already impacting them and will impact them much more in the future because people like me and you, people who help other people build infrastructure and people who recommend operating systems and people who recommend patterns and things, we're just going to drop off using CentOS because it doesn't exist. It does exist and some other people are saying, “Oh, it's actually better to use this new CentOS, you know, Stream. Stream is amazing.” It's not. It's not the same thing. It's different. And—Corey: I used to work at a bank. That was not an option. I mean, granted at the bank for the production systems it was always [REL 00:25:18], but being able to spin up a pre-production environment without having to pay license fees on every VM. Yeah.Jeff: Yeah. And not only that, they did this announcement and framed it a certain way, and the community immediately saw. You know, I think that they're just angry about something, and whether it was a NASA contract with Rocky Linux, or whether it was something Oracle did, who knows, but it seems petty in retrospect, especially in comparison to the amount of backlash that came out of it. And I really don't think that they understand the thing that they had with that Red Hat Enterprise Linux is not a massive growth opportunity for Red Hat. It's, in some ways, a dying product in terms of compared to using cloud stuff, it doesn't matter.You could use CoreOS, you could use NixOS, and you could use anything, it doesn't really matter. For people like you and me, we just want to deploy our software. And if it's containers, it really doesn't matter. It's just the people in government or in certain organizations that have these roles that you have to use whatever FIPS and all that kind of stuff. So, it's not like it's a hyper-growth opportunity for them.CentOS was, like, the only reason why all the software, especially on the open-source side, was compatible with Red Hat because we could use CentOS and it was easy and simple. They took that—well, they tried to take that away and everybody's like, “That's—what are you doing?” Like, I posted my blog post and I think that sparked off quite a bit of consternation, to the point where there was a lot of personal stuff going on. I basically said, “I'm not supporting Red Hat Enterprise Linux for any of my work anymore.” Like, “From this point forward, it's not supported.”I'll support OpenELA, I'll support Rocky Linux or Oracle Linux or whatever because I can get free versions that I don't have to sign into a portal and get a license and download the license and integrate it with my CI work. I'm an open-source developer. I'm not going to pay for stuff or use 16 free licenses. Or I was reached out to and they said, “We'll give you more licenses. We'll give you extra.” And it's like, that's not how this works. Like, I don't have to call Debian and Ubuntu and [laugh] I don't even have to call Oracle to get licenses. I can just download their software and run it.So, you know, I don't think they understood the fact that they had that. And the bigger problem for me was the two-layer approach to destroying all the trust that the community had. First was in, I think it was 2019 when they said—we're in the middle of CentOS 8's release cycle—they said, “We're dropping CentOS 8. It's going to be Stream now.” And everybody was up in arms.And then Rocky Linux and [unintelligible 00:27:52] climbed in and gave us what we wanted: basically, CentOS. So, we're all happy and we had a status quo, and Rocky Linux 9 and [unintelligible 00:28:00] Linux nine came out after Red Hat 9, and the world was a happy place. And then they just dumped this thing on us and it's like, two major release cycles in a row, they did it again. Like, I don't know what this guy's thinking, but in one of the interviews, one of the Red Hat representatives said, “Well, we wanted to do this early in Red Hat 9's release cycle because people haven't started migrating.” It's like, well, I already did all my automation upgrades for CI to get all my stuff working in Rocky Linux 9 which was compatible with Red Hat Enterprise Linux 9. Am I not one of the people that's important to you?Like, who's important to you? Is it only the people who pay you money or is it also the people that empower your operating system to be a premier Enterprise Linux operating system? So, I don't know. You can tell. My anger has not died down. The amount of temper that I have about it has definitely diminished because I realize I'm talking at a wall a lot of times, when I'm having conversations on Twitter, private conversations and email, things like that.Corey: People come to argue; they don't come to actually have a discussion.Jeff: Yeah. I think that they just, they don't see the community aspect of it. They just see the business aspect. And the business aspect, if they want to figure out ways that they can get more people to pay them for their software, then maybe they should provide more value and not just cut off value streams. It doesn't make sense to me from a long-term business perspective.From a short term, maybe there were some clients who said, “Oh, shoot. We need this thing stable. We're going to pay for some more licenses.” But the engineers that those places are going to start making plans of, like, how do we make this not happen again. And the way to not make that happen, again is to use, maybe Ubuntu or maybe [unintelligible 00:29:38] or something. Who knows? But it's not going to be increasing our spend with Red Hat.Corey: That's what I think a lot of companies are missing when it comes to community as well, where it's not just a place to go to get support for whatever it is you're doing and it's not a place [where 00:29:57] these companies view prospective customers. There's more to it than that. There has to be a social undercurrent on this. I look at the communities I spend time in and in some of them dating back long enough, I've made lifelong significant friendships out of those places, just through talking about our lives, in addition to whatever the community is built around. You have to make space for that, and companies don't seem to fully understand that.Jeff: Yeah, I think that there's this thing that a community has to provide value and monetizable value, but I don't think that you get open-source if you think that that's what it is. I think some people in corporate open-source think that corporate open-source is a value stream opportunity. It's a funnel, it's something that is going to bring you more customers—like you say—but they don't realize that it's a community. It's like a group of people. It's friends, it's people who want to make the world a better place, it's people who want to support your company by wearing your t-shirt to conferences, people want to put on your red fedora because it's cool. Like, it's all of that. And when you lose some of that, you lose what makes your product differentiated from all the other ones on the market.Corey: That's what gets missed. I think that there's a goodwill aspect of it. People who have used the technology and understand its pitfalls are likelier to adopt it. I mean, if you tell me to get a website up and running, I am going to build an architecture that resembles what I've run before on providers that I've run on before because I know what the failure modes look like; I know how to get things up and running. If I'm in a hurry, trying to get something out the door, I'm going to choose the devil that I know, on some level.Don't piss me off as a community member and incentivize me to change that estimation the next time I've got something to build. Well, that doesn't show up on this quarter's numbers. Well, we have so little visibility into how decisions get made many companies that you'll never know that you have a detractor who's still salty about something you did five years ago and that's the reason the bank decided not to because that person called in their political favors to torpedo that deal and have a sweetheart offer from your competitor, et cetera and so on and so forth. It's hard to calculate the actual cost of alienating goodwill. But—Jeff: Yeah.Corey: I wish companies had a longer memory for these things.Jeff: Yeah. I mean, and thinking about that, like, there was also the HashiCorp incident where they kind of torpedoed all developer goodwill with their Terraform and other—Terraform especially, but also other products. Like, I probably, through my book and through my blog posts and my GitHub examples have brought in a lot of people into the HashiCorp ecosystem through Vagrant use, and through Packer and things like that. At this point, because of the way that they treated the open-source community with the license change, a guy like me is not going to be enthusiastic about it anymore and I'm going to—I already had started looking at alternatives for Vagrant because it doesn't mesh with modern infrastructure practices for local development as much, but now it's like that enthusiasm is completely gone. Like I had that goodwill, like you said earlier, and now I don't have that goodwill and I'm not going to spread that, I'm not going to advocate for them, I'm not going to wear their t-shirt [laugh], you know when I go out and about because it just doesn't feel as clean and cool and awesome to me as it did a month ago.And I don't know what the deal is. It's partly the economy, money's drying up, things like that, but I don't understand how the people at the top can't see these things. Maybe it's just their organization isn't set up to show the benefits from the engineers underneath, who I know some of these engineers are, like, “Yeah, I'm sorry. This was dumb. I still work here because I get a paycheck, but you know, I can't say anything on social media, but thank you for saying what you did on Twitter.” Or X.Corey: Yeah. It's nice being independent where you don't really have to fear the, well if I say this thing online, people might get mad at me and stop doing business with me or fire me. It's well, yeah, I mean, I would have to say something pretty controversial to drive away every client and every sponsor I've got at this point. And I don't generally have that type of failure mode when I get it wrong. I really want to thank you for taking the time to talk with me. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to find you?Jeff: Old school, my personal website, jeffgeerling.com. I link to everything from there, I have an About page with a link to every profile I've ever had, so check that out. It links to my books, my YouTube, all that kind of stuff.Corey: There's something to be said for picking a place to contact you that will last the rest of your career as opposed to, back in the olden days, my first email address was the one that my ISP gave me 25 years ago. I don't use that one anymore.Jeff: Yep.Corey: And having to tell everyone I corresponded with that it was changing was a pain in the butt. We'll definitely put a link to that one in the [show notes 00:34:44]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I appreciate it.Jeff: Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much for having me.Corey: Jeff Geerling, YouTuber, author, content creator, and oh so very much more. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment that we will, of course, read [in action 00:35:13], just as soon as your payment of compute modules for Raspberries Pi show up in a small unmarked bag.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

What you'll learn in this episode:   How to know when to walk away from a purchase, and how to trust your intuition when buying Why you should always ask for a detailed receipt, even if it feels awkward Commonly misunderstood phrases dealers may use to confuse buyers How Jeff does due diligence before making a purchase How to navigate the many platforms where you can purchase jewelry today   About Jeff Russak Jeff Russak is principal of Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers. Jeff's expertise in antique and 20th century jewelry combined with an uncompromising attitude toward quality, condition, and style directs the acquisition process. His proficiency in signed pieces and hallmarks is especially useful in identifying and dating each piece. In demand as a speaker on antique jewelry at museums and shows, he also volunteers as a guest appraiser for charity.   Additional Resources: Website Facebook Instagram Twitter   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript:   When it comes to buying jewelry, nothing is more important than trust. That's why Jeff Russak, principal at Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers, won't hesitate to leave a purchase behind if his inner voice tells him something is wrong. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he vets his purchases and the dealers he works with; what red flags buyers should watch out for; and why a receipt is more powerful than you might think. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    Today, my guest is Jeff Russak, one of the principals of Lawrence Jeffrey. They are estate dealers located in Litchfield, Connecticut. Jeff has had decades of experience buying and selling. He's also extremely knowledgeable about estate jewelry. Along the way, he has learned about what a good dealer should be doing and what you should know in order not to be taken advantage of. There are lots that dealers know about good dealers that the ordinary buyer doesn't know. He will fill us in on some of that today. Jeff, welcome to the podcast.    Jeff: Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.   Sharon: I'm so glad to have you. This is the second time you've been on. I'm glad you decided to come back.    I bought a diamond tennis bracelet several years ago—well, a long time ago—that I was told was Art Deco. Then, when I showed it to somebody else, they said, “That cut wasn't done until the 80s.” I still like the bracelet, but how could I have avoided that without knowing everything there is to know about diamonds?   Jeff: That's a really great question, and it's actually kind of a complicated one. The person who looked at it did something which is very basic. They looked at the cut of the diamonds. That's one of the things I do when I'm determining the age of any piece. We look at the stones. We have a good general idea of when different cuts, for diamonds or otherwise, were established.    The short answer is I think the only way you could have avoided that would have been to have a better handle on whether this dealer is expert enough to make that determination or not. That can be a hard thing to do. We've talked about how to buy, and a lot of how to buy is all about who you decide to trust. I think for the average buyer, figuring out who you trust and who you feel comfortable with is really the bottom line.   I'll tell a story about one of our better clients. We didn't know this for years, but they're people who have become friends. They started buying from us when we were very new to the business. They didn't buy just jewelry, but they bought decorative arts. We didn't know it, but every single piece they bought from us was going to one of the top appraisal firms in New York and being appraised and verified. After quite a number of years, they told us this. That that was one of the reasons why they kept coming back, because everything was O.K. We passed the test for authentication and for value. Perhaps that's a bit extreme for most people, but it's certainly one way.    I would say it's listening to that little voice in your head. I think today a lot of what I'd like to talk about is how I buy, because the way I buy is no different from the way I recommend that everybody buys. Of course, there are things I know that an average buyer is not going to know, but a lot of what I do is simply being a good detective and listening to that voice in my head. When the voice in my head says, “Don't buy something,” even a little bit, I just don't buy, or when the voice in my head says, “I don't know if this relationship is for me.” Maybe I think the person is a lot smarter than I am. That happens. So, how am I going to know I'm making the right connection, buying for the right price so I can present pieces to my clients for the right price? A lot of it is your instincts. Trust your instincts. It's so tempting to buy something that looks great or you've been told is great or you've been told is a good deal, but if you don't have that sense, that feeling you should, then you shouldn't.   Sharon: Is that how you buy all the time or most of the time?   Jeff: That is definitely part of what I do. It's a big part. We tend to make relationships, and we buy a lot from individual relationships. Some buyers are like bees who are busy pollinating every flower in the field. I think that's really funny. If that's your style, I think you should do it and you should enjoy it. That's a different risk level and a different set of rules. If find people who I really trust, people who are open and transparent with me, who answer my questions in a very forthright way, then those are the folks I go back to again and again. I have the same advice for anyone.   Sharon: Are they here or are they in Europe? Are they everywhere?   Jeff: They are everywhere. I have great contacts in the U.S., and I mean contacts from dealers that I might see in a flea market. I have a couple of local folks who run estate sales. One of them is the finest generalist I know. He is so incredibly smart and knowledgeable. I totally trust him. If I ask a question, he tells me what he knows and what he doesn't know.   Sharon: If he or one of these people that you trust called you up and said, “I have a piece I think you'll really like. I don't know anything about it, but I think you'll really like it,” and maybe they're far away or you don't want to go, will you buy it sight unseen?   Jeff: This goes back to what you and I discussed briefly. I think it's all about the return policy. Yes, I will agree to buy something, but I don't think it's sight unseen anymore. They're naturally going to send me a picture using smartphones. That technology is great, but the pictures don't always tell the whole story. Someone who's really honest doesn't have any fear of taking something back if it doesn't work for the client. I don't think there's anyone I deal with who won't take a piece back if it's not quite right for me.   Sharon: It's interesting you say that. It's probably true, but I hadn't thought about it. There probably isn't anything that's sight unseen anymore with the internet and everything.    We talked a little bit about receipts. Should we make sure we have the receipt?   Jeff: The rules for everyone are the same. There are a lot of laws in place, mostly federal laws. Some of them are laws that relate specifically to jewelry. There are several pages of regulations, and also there are laws that simply are contract law. Your receipt is your contract. You need to ask that every piece of information is included on the receipt.    Let's say you're buying a diamond ring and it's supposed to be by Cartier. You want to know that it's 18-karat gold. You want to know what the diamond grade is. You want to know about the color and clarity. I want to be clear that I'm not trying to create an environment that's very hidebound. We all understand that people do their best to approximate, but they need to be close, let's say. So, you're going to want the diamond colors and clarities, and then you're going to want it to say, “authentic Cartier” or “this ring is by Cartier.” Here's a little trick: if they say, “This ring is signed Cartier,” that doesn't mean it has to be made by Cartier.   Sharon: Who is it made by?   Jeff: It could be made by you and me and we got someone to engrave the word “Cartier” on it. Signed Cartier does not mean it is Cartier. It means they are guaranteeing that the word “Cartier” is on the piece. “Authentic” Cartier or “by Cartier” means that it is Cartier. There are quite a number of situations, especially online, where you do often see the phrasing “signed Tiffany,” “signed Cartier,” “signed Van Cleef & Arpels.” Now, they may fully mean that it is, but I've seen quite a number of situations where it was clear it wasn't.    Sharon: You're asking for a lot; maybe a lot that people don't put on the receipt normally. Have you had any push back? Were people getting annoyed with you?   Jeff: No, I think this is really simple. At my shop and at shows, I have definitely been asked to include all the information on my tag, which is all the information I've mentioned and more. People have said, “I would really like that on the receipt. Could you make sure it's on there?” I think if you get pushback, then I would decline to buy the piece no matter what. If they're someone who can't write that information on a receipt, for me, suddenly, there are alarm bells. Something is wrong. Now, maybe it's just a person who doesn't like doing that. That's possible, and they're a totally honest person, but if they don't want to put the information regarding the piece on the receipt, that's a problem. You have no recourse because your receipt does not state the proper information.    Here's the deal: that contract is forever. People will tell you you can't return things. People will tell you, “Oh, that was two years ago. That's expired.” If it says 10 carats of diamonds and it's only five carats, you can return it. You can return it tomorrow. You can return it in five years. Your grandchildren can return it in a hundred years. That's a contract that has to be accurate. It doesn't matter. It could be tractor parts.   Sharon: It's easier for you. If I see a piece and I have fallen in love with it—if you want it, you overlook a lot, whereas you can say no to a lot and pick out one where you think the person is trustworthy. Is it easier for you?   Jeff: I think you're making a good point. I made some notes before we started. Here's what I wrote about this: this is how I buy, but there are various rules. Let's just say we've discussed them. If I think I should start spouting the law, I remind myself to zip it and just move on. There's lots and lots to buy. It's not my job to tell people what the law is. It's not my job, except on this podcast.    The thing I'm not comfortable with is when someone skirts the law and won't make a proper contract. If you were buying a house and they refused to get a survey, I would say, “Hey, something's up.” I think it's reasonable to ask for a proper receipt, always, and it doesn't matter whether it's Walmart or Sotheby's or any number of famous dealers I can name all over the country. It's perfectly fine, and anyone who is selling things in an honest way won't have any problem with that. If it is what they say it is, why not write it? This shouldn't be any issue. I understand it's uncomfortable.   Sharon: I'd rather somebody tell me, “I don't know,” than guess and say, “I don't know what it is. I don't what it's made of,” that sort of thing.   Jeff: That's a great point. I would much rather people tell me, “I don't know.” But here's the thing: the “I don't know” price should be half of the “I think it's a sapphire” price, or maybe a quarter. “I don't know” means the price should be falling, falling, falling. If you say, “Oh, this is a beautiful turquoise necklace,” is it natural turquoise or is it reconstituted? Now, by law, they're required to tell you. If they say, “I don't know,” the law then requires you to insist they find out.    Once again, it's uncomfortable. If they say, “I don't know,” chances are you really should just walk away. Let's say this gorgeous turquoise necklace is gold. It's got all of these stones, and it's $12,000. Well, $12,000 is a lot in my world. Maybe it's not that much money to other people, but “I don't know” doesn't go together for me.   Sharon: That's interesting. I'm coming from the items I bought when I started getting into jewelry. Now I know a little bit more. For instance, there are people who seem to have a natural affinity for detail I don't have. They can tell. I'm thinking of a girlfriend who once said, “That's not an Art Deco. That's an Edwardian piece.” It was, and I thought it was Art Deco. I thought she was ridiculous.   Jeff: I think it's amazing when people know. There are lots of people who are so good at that. I think as a buyer, you should—I'll go back to what I said in the beginning. You find someone who you trust and who's going to explain to you what you're buying, and who will rely that on the receipt and who wants to have an ongoing relationship with you. If you have a problem, they will sort that problem out. Look, Jeff Russak at Lawrence Jeffrey is not made of sold gold. He does not have a brain the size of a Volkswagen. We make mistakes. When we make mistakes, we have to fix them. That's the way it is.    Sharon: I've heard the phrase, “Somebody has a dealer's eye.” Do you think there's such a thing as a dealer's eye?   Jeff: I think there is. I think what that refers to is someone who just knows when something is a good deal. I have a customer. When I get a piece I know is a good deal, that we bought well and the retail price is a great price, I tease her and say, “You're like a hound. You can smell the jewelry, that there's a deal.” I think that's totally true, absolutely.    Sharon: That's interesting. Well, I certainly don't have that. If a display case says that all the gems or stones inside are certified, what does that mean?   Jeff: That actually doesn't mean anything at all. It's meaningless. This is where we need to start being detectives. The question is certified by whom?   Sharon: Well, who can certify them?   Jeff: People often think it's a government agency, or they think, for instance, that it's a lab like the GIA, or they think the dealer is certifying. A dealer who's smart, who's on the up and up, isn't going to certify anything. Certifying means you agree that the information is true. Most appraisals, for instance, are very careful to have at the end something that says, “We've done our best job to approximate, to use our knowledge to establish what things are,” and then when they say, “I duly sign,” or “I hereby certify,” all they're certifying is that the signature is theirs. They're not certifying the information. They're saying, “We've done our best job.” They probably have, and the information is probably correct, but certifying is different.   Like at the GIA, when you study to become a gemologist, they wrap your knuckles with a ruler if you say certificate or certify. They don't certify things. They produce laboratory reports. It's a report, not a certificate. It doesn't certify anything. It is a laboratory process they have performed to the best of their abilities, which is pretty darn good.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.

Is Universal Income good or bad? https://twitter.com/PMadridShow/status/1693983751708328349 Bill - I am looking into joining the Catholic Church. What is all included in the Profession of Faith that I must believe? Mike - Universal income: People who received checks from the government didn't need the money and they spent it on frivolous things. Maria - Universal income: I work for the Chicago Fire Department as a medic. We do get more people who Overdose on drugs on the first of the month when their checks come in. Jeff - It seems like we are trying to create the intellect of angels with AI. Peter - Universal Basic Income: there are some people who would cultivate talents that don't necessarily provide money value. It could also help people pray more. Betty - Universal Basic Income and how it relates to AI: I think we need to take into consideration the current world views that the population is too high and this could be used to lower the population. Paul - Basic Universal income is bad because you would become reliant on the government which would give them more power to control our lives. Saul - You would need to be working to receive Universal income might work. Chris - Are the apparitions of our Lady of Knock just apparitions or were they physically there?

Working with amazing, hard-working property management entrepreneurs is what makes being a coach worth it. Join property management growth expert Jason Hull in today's episode as he interviews DoorGrow client Jeff Garner. Jeff went from 150 to 420 doors in 4 months! Learn how he did it. You'll Learn [02:35] Why would anyone get into property management? [12:40] Fixing the foundation of a property management business [15:14] Importance of culture in a business [25:05] Why you need a coach [27:34] Navigating operational issues  Tweetables “No matter what market we're in, it's good. If we're going to the moon, management's great. If we're crashing, it's even better because people can't sell their properties and they go, ‘Oh shoot, we'll turn them into rentals.'” "Go where they won't go and do what they won't do. That's where the money's at," “It all starts with your mindset.” “Weekly commitments, and you'll start to see the momentum build big time when the team are all visible and can be seen and there's accountability and they get recognized because you have that system installed, performance sometimes goes up.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Jeff: I have 420 doors and I have more peace of mind, more direction and I know where I'm going to be and where I'm going and how to get there.  [00:00:12] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not  [00:00:38] because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the bss, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert Jason Hull the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:08] And today's guest is Jeff Garner. Jeff, welcome.  [00:01:14] Jeff: Thanks man. Glad to be here.  [00:01:17] Jason: So Jeff, what's the name of your property management business?  [00:01:19] Jeff: Homes Stretch Property Management  [00:01:21] Jason: Homes Stretch. All right, cool. And why'd you pick that name?  [00:01:26] Jeff: I feel like real estate investing it's a long-term play. It builds wealth over the long haul. And for our home stretch of our life, whether you decide your home stretch starts at 40 because you retire early, or whether it's 60 or 70, if you are buying real estate, really it, you know, It's about letting the tenants pay down, you know, principal balance, pay down, depreciation, tax, write-offs, appreciation. Sure cash flow's nice every month, but you can make millions over, you know, 20 year period, 25 year period. And so I see the real value in real estate is being that, so we want to get our owners to the home stretch and, you know, that's kind of how we look at it. So we want to improve and maintain your property so that someday you can either sell or refi and it's in great shape and it's an easy process. Or you just want to keep it in cashflow forever. So our job's to give you freedom and peace of mind knowing that your properties are being taken care of better than you can or anyone else so.  [00:02:29] Jason: Nice. Love the brand. So Jeff. Why don't you give people a little bit of background on you. How did you start getting into real estate and what made you decide to do the crazy thing of starting a property management company? How did this all happen?  [00:02:43] Jeff: Yeah, it was the crazy thing because-- so I'll tell you a little bit about me. Real estate's the only business I've ever been in. I got my real estate license when I was 22. I was going to be a real estate agent. Found a niche working with investors because when you're 22, you know, growing up doesn't come overnight. And so when you're got all your, "oh shoot, I'm showing property today," and you have to crunch the beer cans and put them under your seat. because you just turned 21 a year before, you know, it can be a little awkward putting the 40 year old mom and dad and their kids in the car to go show them property. [00:03:18] Right. Which I did okay at. I did fine. But I found a niche in working with investors because you could sell them one house and most of the time they don't even want to get in your car. Half the time, once you get know what you're doing, you just give them a lockbox code and tell them to call you back and tell you what you think, and they give you a number and you write it and put it in. You could sell them 10 or 20 houses. So I developed a niche at that. I got really good at finding deals and I would send them to my guys. Shortly after that, I decided that I was on the wrong side of the table, you know, three or four years of that. I go to closing, I collect my $2,500 commission check, and he gets a check for $20,000 because he flipped it, right? And I just thought, wait a minute, I'm finding the deal. I'm calling him up, I'm telling him what number to put it in at and he's making all this money. What am I doing wrong? So I got into that side of the business, you know. So, 08 hit crashed. All of us really put me in a position to where I to make a decision on what I wanted to do because all my investors were gone. Right? [00:04:17] They were trying to stay alive. Yeah. You know, in 08 for the people that didn't go through it, was like If you worked in Walmart and all of a sudden the next morning you woke up and no one will shop at Walmart again. [00:04:31] Jason: Right?  [00:04:31] Jeff: Yeah. Never walks through the door.  [00:04:34] Jason: Yeah. So must have been scary.  [00:04:37] Jeff: Yeah. And so, I thought, "well, this investment thing's really what I want to do. So I'm going all in. It's time to restart. So that's what I'm going to go all in at." So I really looked at what happened and I realized that history, you know, tells the story and that everyone was riding this wave and had no idea it was a wave because no one does the research to, you know, see what the cycles are. I didn't know there was a cycle. I was young. Yeah. And so the common sense thought came, well, we were at a high. If I was a real investor and I was really good at what I did, I would've been taking vacations, waiting for this crash to happen, and then I'd go out and buy everything I could find and hold it. Yeah, so I did that. I bought 110 rentals over a three year period, all at, you know, probably 20% of what the market is today. And outsourced the management a couple times. Horrific. Cost me more money than you know, one, when I was at 110 properties, I had to take them back overnight because I realized that I had 16 vacants and they didn't even know about half of them. [00:05:42] Really? Yeah. It was horrible. They just they got overwhelmed and so I built a management company overnight to manage my own properties and had zero desire. It was the last thing on the absolute planet I wanted to deal with was tenants and toilets. I did not get into rentals to deal with tenants or maintenance. It didn't, yeah. So I put together a makeshift management company and decided I'd never take on another property of anyone else's. I'd only do my own, because I was going to do this, it was going to be for myself. There certainly wasn't going to make a hundred dollars a month on a property and do all this for somebody else. Right. That's, that was my thought on being real. And a few years went by '16, '17, realized that I'd gotten tons of equity and I had properties sitting there with 50, 60,000 in equity and I'm making 200 or 300 a month. And I thought, this math doesn't make sense anymore, right? So I sold off over a two or three year period, about 50 of them. But everyone apparently, everyone knew management is a tough gig and there's not a lot of good management companies out there. Why? Right? There was no DoorGrow then that I'm aware of at least. Right? So everyone in the management business just thought, "this looks like we can make some money, let's do this." [00:06:57] But they had no idea. The machine, it has to be to run well. Yeah. And so they said, "well, I'll buy that property. I'll even give you retail for it, but you have to keep the management." So to this day, I still manage all 110 of those properties, even though I only own 60 of them. Right. So to get the money I wanted, I had to keep the management. And then I just kind of started looking at it is in the last couple years when I realized that we could potentially be getting to another place. If you look at the charts and you look at history that we're you know, we're at a high now, will it last four years longer? Probably. So I had to kind of reevaluate what I wanted to do and I looked at all my businesses, flip business, wholesale, you know, my rental portfolios and my management company, I went, wait a minute, what am I doing? I'm focusing all this energy and chasing down deals and having all these, you know, taking all the risk on everything I buy and just grinding away constantly. For over 20 years now. And I got this management company, although it's not sexy, everyone tells me it's the worst thing in the world to do. Yeah. You know, I realize it was the one thing that was repeatable, scalable, and I could predict. And no matter what market we're in, it's good. If we're going to the moon, management's great. If we're crashing, it's even better because people can't sell their properties and they go, oh shoot, we'll turn them into rentals. I thought, "wait, what am I doing? I'm looking at this all wrong." I just started to look at it and so I started working on getting really good at it and filling all the holes on my own, right, with my own. And it's, you know, and I realized that with the right team in place and the right mindset, you know, which is we want to help landlords, right? I want to take 20 something years of resources and try to convert over this management company and give them to everyone else-- that it could be a great business. And then I realized, like I preach, because I did some coaching in the real estate space throughout the years "go where they won't go and do what they won't do. That's where the money's at," right? So if everyone's going after retail flips and a really nice b and b areas, then go look in the C areas because they're being neglected. If everyone's after all the C properties because the cash flows, so well then go up to your A or B areas and start doing flips because those are being neglected. Nice. Certain town everyone's afraid of? Good. Let them be all fighting in one place and you go there. And so I realized that was what was going on in the real estate market for the management business. So I decided that's what I wanted to focus my energies on. So I literally burned all the other boats, man. No marketing, no wholesaling, no flipping.  [00:09:40] Jason: Wow. You went all in on property management?  [00:09:42] Jeff: All in on property management, period. I got online, I did what I did 15 years before, after 08 happened, and I thought, "I'm going to redo myself. How do I do this?" And so I just got online and I started digging around and trying to teach myself things and I got coaches back then, and even though I knew 90% of what they were trying to teach me, because I got coaches in the flipping side, right? I knew you know, 80, 90% of what they were teaching me was that 10 or 20% where I knew would bring me all my money, right? So I did the same thing here and that's how I came to DoorGrow is I found you guys really were the only real system oriented, you know, nuts and bolts teach the how and not just the why. You know, a lot of people want to tell you why you do. Oh, well, you know why? They want to give you the why on, you know, but they don't want to give you the nuts and bolts of the how and tell you connect A to B to C to D and you'll get your results, right? And so, I found you guys, and I knew that's all I was missing to having success because the rest of the management companies all had bad raps. You couldn't talk to a landlord that really loved their management company. Yeah. So I knew I could fix, put those pieces together and really treat it like a business based off of giving people their freedom and peace of mind, knowing that their properties are being taken care of better than theirs. [00:11:10] If you can do that, anyone listening to this, if you can wrap your mind around being of service. No one else is doing that in the management business. Right? Yeah. You will dominate, it's like I used to say when I had lots of rehab crews going, if someone shows up and does what they say and has half of the talent that I need them to have, they could be rich. That's all they have to do. Just not be the best, but do what you say and show up so it's predictable and we can communicate well and get stuff done. So if you did that, and you can do that with a mindset of, "I want to be of service to the industry." Be the best. You'll dominate, end the story, but you have to wrap that around your mind, you know, and it'll come out in your calls. It'll come out in your conversations at the grocery store. It'll come out everywhere.  [00:12:00] Hell, I pulled 16 doors out of my gym in the first 30 days after joining DoorGrow because I just got the structure when we went through mindset and and some sales stuff of. Really taking what was in my mind and putting it in paper and going through the process of splitting the page into four spots and right. You know, going through everything. I got to dial it in and then boom, that was it. There's nothing else to talk about, but what I came up with there, you know, home stretch was the name of the business because it fits what I'm trying to do. I know what our mindset is, the culture for my company and you know, we started just plugging in systems and processes.  [00:12:40] Jason: So let's talk a little bit about it. because you said nuts and bolts, but to most property managers, they're like, "nuts and bolts means how do you like do maintenance and how do you plunger a toilet?" you know, like it's like the practical stuff where you know how to manage properties. Yeah. You know how to deal with tenants, you know how to like do all that. What challenge were you dealing with that brought you to DoorGrow and how did that help?  [00:13:04] Jeff: It's really hard to explain that. What I really had was is I had a business and it functioned and I did okay, but I did not feel at 150 properties, I did not feel I could bring on 10 more doors. I felt like it would all crumble and break because I had no idea what I was doing really. Right. I had nothing to model. I had just said I got maintenance, my maintenance was horrible. I had all these guys that that was one of the hardest parts to find. But I had all these just subcontractors and every once in a while we'd find someone to come on full time, but you'd have to trust them to be out there all day doing what they said they were doing. And I didn't know how to run that. I didn't know how to manage that. I didn't know how to systematize that where I knew what was going on at all times. And I didn't feel comfortable going any bigger because, I felt like I could see why other management companies had problems, and I don't think they want to suck, right? No, I don't think so. But they just don't want to say no to the money.  [00:14:06] "Hey, I got 20 doors." oh, we're going to do a great job for you. Let's bring it on. And they're already struggling with what they have. Yeah, right. Just think it's magically you're going to work, or, you know what? It'll give me more money in that way. More money will mean I can do more things. And no it doesn't. It creates more problems that cost more money. So I needed the systems, I needed the processes. Those are the nuts and bolts I'm talking about. Got it. Who to hire to do what and to, because that's it.  [00:14:34] Jason: I mean, so what's changed then? Like you had 150 doors, you came to DoorGrow and we started helping you change a lot of stuff, right? Yeah, absolutely. So, what things have you changed since joining DoorGrow? Yeah. What are some of the first things we start working on with you?  [00:14:51] Jeff: Okay, well, really it was just getting my mindset right was the biggest one because once my mindset was correct and I knew and I had our, what we were trying to do, where we could be of service, that opened my mind up to, " how do we do that then?" Right. So that's sort of answering questions for me, you know.  [00:15:14] Jason: So with mindset, what you're saying is I believe you're talking about all the culture stuff that we took you through stuff. Just the culture stuff and just kind of, I mean, that's the core foundation of the business. Like if we want to make this business built around you, we've got to figure that piece out, right? So we started with that and that probably had a significant ripple through everything.  [00:15:33] Jeff: Imagine like this, you have children, you all of a sudden you, "I'm going to be the best dad ever and I'm going to have kids." Next thing you know, you got two or three of them, they're under five. You have no, literally imagine your parents weren't good. I don't know. They didn't model worth a crap. Okay. Like, how do I do this? Like, I can feed them, I can put them to bed and I can keep them from killing themselves, but do I really know how to raise them to have commitment, how to be honest, how can I make a five year old a strong member of society at 28 years old, right? But if you have a culture and a mindset, you know, "I want my children to be like this. I want them to have this belief system," and how do we give them that belief system? Okay, "well, let me look into that. Okay. Well, if we go to this school, it'll give them these values and then I can back them up at home. And then with bedtime and, oh, I did a little research here. If I put them to bed at this time, get them up at this time. Oh wait, the sugars and dyes are bad. It makes them spastic and oh, well I'll take that out." And you start learning, right? But it all starts with your mindset. Right. And so my mindset changed and it started making me go down the rabbit holes that are all in DoorGrow of, "Okay. Leasing-- my leasing person that we're just winging it and working out of this software that we really were just doing all workarounds and spreadsheets because we really didn't know how to use it. Watch this. Watch these videos on leasing, watch these videos on placing tenants." And then I would watch them and then we would meet and put together a process and a system on how it's going to go instead of just winging every call we got. [00:17:17] So I started building it out position by position. I went and I found a new property manager that had the capacity to be a really good property manager and grow from some of the-- I'm still new inDoorGrow. I'm only six months in. Right? And honestly over the last month I've had a two months, I've had a really hard time getting into DoorGrow because I. [00:17:42] I'm up 420 in doors. Right.  [00:17:45] Jason: So, yeah. So, and let's get to that. That's interesting. But so the children, in your analogy here, this is your team you're talking about, and this is my team. Yeah. And you were in it for what, maybe a couple months and then you started replacing the entire team? [00:18:00] Jeff: The entire team is gone except for two people. And one of the two was almost gone. Because of just be all of a sudden having this parent mindset, I kind of coached him, or you know, raised him in a way in this little short period of time to where he's changed. Nice. And he is just, and the reality of it is, what I found out is he was so unhappy because of how screwed up systems were that everything rolled down to him that once I realized that I got to take things away, put them create and find out what was broken on his role. And he was a main construction manager that we created a different systems and now he's probably one of my strongest pieces. So everyone knew the whole team is new.  [00:18:50] Jason: So new team, you installed a good culture, you're then able to work with us on the hiring piece and getting good team members in place. Absolutely. You've leveled up some team members because you have culture and you know, like what you deserve and want as a business owner and what have the type of team and we want to build around you. Absolutely. Most business owners build teams around the business, and that's probably what you did before. [00:19:15] Jeff: Absolutely a pure necessity. And I, I didn't but hire people that fit the culture or what I was looking for. I just hired a warm body that seemed like they would work, and I thought, we'll just teach them what we need them to know. Yeah. And their mindset or what they did in their off time or their goals didn't mean they were their business. [00:19:36] Jason: Right. Yeah it's amazing. Some simple frameworks like just understanding the three fits to hiring. Yeah. Like culture fit, skill fit, personality fit can shift hiring significantly. So then you started working pretty quickly with one of our coaches on acquisitions. You went out and found a deal. And in four months you were at 420 units.  [00:19:59] Jeff: Yeah. Yep. 420. And I've got probably we're I'm just, we might be at four 40 or four 50 because we have 20 or 30 vacants that Okay. That are under, that are kind of on make ready that we took over that we haven't been able to fill yet because we have this construction backlog, not on our end, but on his backend. The guy that I bought the management from, which was part of the deal, and one of the reasons he sold was because he had done exactly what everyone else did. He got too big and wasn't saying no, and got backlogged and yeah, he was starting to provide really horrible service, so I went in, bought it from him at a really good price for me, but I think it was still a good price for him because if you're at a point to where you're going to, it's stressing you out, you can't get it all done. [00:20:46] It's affecting anything, all your other revenue streams and people are getting ready to start leaving you. Someone walks in "wait, you can take this off my hands and give me money? Okay. Where do I sign?" You know?  [00:20:59] Jason: So what are the things did you do with our team? Have we done a website for you?  [00:21:03] Jeff: You did a website. [00:21:05] Jason: What about your branding? Did you change your brand at all?  [00:21:08] Jeff: Yeah. Hell, hell yeah. I was starting point property management. I changed my brand. We rebranded a week before this acquisition, which I was like, I'm going to put this rebranding thing off because that's another, and then we sat down and I was talking to the team and I don't think they loved it, but they agreed that doing it before we transition all these new owners and tenants over was going to be the way to go because then we would have to change it all up in a couple months anyway when we rebranded and had them in a new website and portal and such so. [00:21:38] Jason: How about pricing? Did you change your pricing?  [00:21:41] Jeff: I'm on the hybrid pricing. Okay. The three plans. The three plans now, which is exactly from you guys. Which was another thing that really helped me because with changing the pricing and doing the hybrid plan and going through that training, and it was, once again, it was all the why's we're doing it. I got to design the plans that fit our culture and provide the service we wanted to provide. It gave me more confidence, honestly, in what we were doing, even though I was going to be charging more now. So yeah, we're on the three tier pricing, hybrid pricing.  [00:22:19] Jason: So you've changed your team, you changed your branding, you changed your website, you changed your pricing model. You've probably made some adjustments to your pitch. Do you do the Golden Bridge stuff?  [00:22:31] Jeff: I didn't have a pitch before. You didn't have a pitch? I didn't have a pitch. I'd just say, "Hey, we do management. Can we manage your properties?" And I just like, that's what I'm saying, when I didn't know, like I couldn't wrap my mind around, because I'd been flipping houses and wholesaling. I had that down to a science. I am a fricking ninja in that. Yeah. But the management side, it was just, "Hey, we manage properties." Yeah. This is what we charge if you want to come over. Cool. If not, I got to go. I got other calls with me, you know, and to have a pitch. So it was literally everything and the pitch made it. That's what I'm saying. I pulled 16 doors out of the gym. Yeah. Just "what are you doing now? Oh, I'm doing management and it's--" 'boop,' just going into my pitch casually, just real casual because we're at the gym. "Do you know anybody that manages any properties? Yeah, I do. I got this buddy. Cool. Could I talk to him? That was it.  [00:23:23] Jason: So I love clients like you, Jeff. because you implement, like you went through the rapid revamp and you did it rapid, like you got that stuff done. Yeah. Pretty quick. And then you start working on acquisition because you saw that opportunity with our acquisitions coach and you're like, "I'm going to do that." and you're just doing stuff and I think that's a testament to you. You know, this is part, I think when we work out more often at the gym, and I think our brains work better. I think that's science, like that's been proven. Like there's something released in our muscles. And you're a big dude. I got to get to your point. I'm trying to work out to catch up to you.  [00:23:59] Jeff: I'm going to be pitching you on coaching you in that area. [00:24:02] Jason: But I think I appreciate that you've been implementing this stuff rapidly and I asked you at DoorGrow Live, I was like, "where do you see yourself, you know, do you think you could get to a thousand doors?" And you were like, "yeah, probably a year and a half." Like it's nothing. Like it's nothing. And you're like, "well, maybe two years." And I was like, "do you know how ridiculous that sounds to most people?" Yeah. So, but I believe it. I believe it for you. I believe it's possible for you. And I believe any of our clients could do it if they just. Take action and implement. And in order to do that, they've got to trust us. And I appreciate you putting your faith in us and trusting us and just putting your head down and doing the work.  [00:24:41] So what would you say to other property managers that are maybe like the company that you bought or maybe like the way you were before if they've just been watching DoorGrow on the sidelines and they think they know what we're about and they think we're just marketers or something that like have a decent sales pitch, but they don't know if they can trust us? You're behind the paywall. What would you say to them?  [00:25:04] Jeff: Well, I mean, besides being behind the paywall and doing it and having experience with it, I know coaching and I know that space, and so I recognized DoorGrow immediately from watching your marketing and just digging in a little that you guys taught the business. It wasn't a marketing ploy to get people to sign up to you. Actually, it wasn't like I was just going to get a bunch of motivation, "go out there and do it!" right, right. Because I motivated it was, like I said, it was the whys and the hows and and the all the processes and systems. And so man, it's all there for you to just do it. You would just do it. You would literally just go, "okay, I'll start at one and work to 10." I had a management company already. If I had to redo it all when I got real life processes and systems, and then I saw that there was people in it that had a hundred doors, 500 doors, a thousand doors, and I'm like, "that's what I need." I need to be surrounded by people that are at a higher level of success and have been where I am and now are where I want to go. And so if you are watching and you have management already and you are struggling, and it sucks. Whether it's for you or your customers, or both?  I have 420 doors and I have more peace of mind, more direction and I know where I'm going to be and where I'm going and how to get there. And more time to myself if I wanted to take it. I don't take it because I still have big goals and so I'm working a lot. But then I did with 150 doors. That's awesome. I had more certainty with 3x almost than I did where I started. I got the team in place. I watched them problem solve all day long on the chat and working systems and the processes and everything happens the same over and over again.  [00:27:01] So it's really a business in a box, but you have to do it. You can't question yourself. You can't make excuses. You just have to do it. It'll be really easy if you just one foot in front of the other and take the steps. It's all there. And I had to stop because I can't wrap my mind around everything until I get to another place. Right. Yeah. Like I can only do so much and it's growing and working and so like, I've got to pause and then I'm going to dive back in and I don't know I'm still in DoorGrow obviously regularly.  [00:27:34] Jason: Well, let's do some co coaching live on air. Let's figure out what's your next step? Ready? Okay. Yeah. You open? Okay, cool. So you're at 420 units right now. Yeah. Yeah. You've finally got a good team, you've got good culture. Yeah. So the next level to get to, you know, to break past that next kind of major barrier, which maybe is 600 doors, you have to have a great team, but you got to get three major systems installed. Those three major systems are going to be, you have to really get a good process system installed. Not just process documentation, but a system to where they're running the processes each time. So we've got DoorGrow flow. You can use that, lead simple, process street, something, but you need a good process system. That's one piece. The other piece you need is you need a really good people system. So you've started to create the culture, you've started to install that system. Then we want to make sure-- and did you use DoorGrow hiring and do grow ATS and work with Sarah on some of that stuff?  [00:28:32] Jeff: I watched the coaching and implemented some of the things I learned just like I did with Clint. So yeah.  [00:28:38] Jason: So we want to make sure we have a solid system so that as you scale, you can get the right people and get those people quickly. So it sounds like you've done some work on that. And then we want to make sure you have a really good planning system. So once you have a team of people you trust to execute, your executive team, then we want to install a planning system. Now these three systems should not be run by you because as a visionary and an entrepreneur, it's not fun for you to do this. So the key person, the most important hire you will have on the team will be an operator. Somebody that runs the operations. Do you feel like you have that key person right now? [00:29:15] Jeff: I do, but she is one of the people I brought on the most valuable hire I've made after I came to DoorGrow. And it was to have that operator, but she's a CFO. Okay. And she's grown another insurance company to probably where we're at now from scratch, which, you know, I think I'm blowing her mind a little on where we want to go, how fast we're going. But yeah, my goal is to make her the operator. She's the CFO. And so you know management's an accounting business, really at the end of the day, and so we are doing so many changes to our software and our accounting to make sure that all those processes and automations are in place that she is buried every day, but she helps with the team. She helped on the hiring. And she's going to be the operator to try to shorten that. We're working her into that role because as she figures pieces out, we hand them off. So it frees her time up and she's not doing the 15- $20 an hour work because they're paying her more than that. Handing it off and it's freeing up her time and she's. Then we're putting in place some of that more operation stuff, so in process.  [00:30:23] Jason: Nice. Yeah. Cool. Awesome. So when she's ready, one of the things we'll want to do is start to get her to show up on the Friday coaching call, which is operations, and to do that super system breakout and work with her and you to get DoorGrow OS installed. Once you get DoorGrow OS installed, the planning system is that next level system. This is going to allow you to have your team start to function like a visionary, like the entrepreneur, they're going to start to innovate and move goals forward without you having to, you know, push them. And she will run that system. She'll run the meetings, and then you'll be able to set goals and break them down from quarterly to monthly to weekly commitments, and you'll start to see the momentum build big time when the team are all visible and can be seen and there's accountability and they get recognized because you have that system installed, performance sometimes goes up. When I first install a system like that, we grew 300% in a year. And so that is kind of the next level I think for you guys is when she's ready for that, we start to get DoorGrow OS installed and get that planning system and cadence. Because cadence in a business is the communication, cadence is the culture, cadence creates all of this, and it gets everyone rowing the boat in the same direction. So instead of you saying, "Hey, let's do this to everybody, watch this video at DoorGrow," et cetera. They will start to innovate and move outcomes forward because they're given goals and deadlines and then support instead of tasks. And that's where you'll start to see your team really perform. This is where you get like three times the output from your team members. This is where your operational costs drop significantly in relation to the number of people you have per door. And so that's what I see next level for you guys. And once you have that system installed, 600 doors is going to be a piece of cake. [00:32:17] Jeff: Yeah. The other thing too is that I know we need a sales funnel. The funnel right now is this mouth, that's it right now.  [00:32:27] Jason: We got to get you out of that. So what'll be next is either we get you, if you don't have this already, we get you an assistant, a setter, or a sales assistant. And that person will then help you double your capacity currently. because they'll be doing all of the follow up, getting you on calls to close and you can use tactics like the double barrel close and some of these things we talk about. That's maybe, that's like level one, baby step. Level two, we just get you out of doing that all together. We get you a full-time BDM. Just like James Wachob 's team installed Brad, he's been showing up to each of our Wednesday calls where we support the BDMs or the people working on growth and I think he's helped him add like 250, something like that. They've added 400 doors organically in less than a year. [00:33:18] Jeff: Is that Brian Bouler guy?  [00:33:20] Jason: Yeah, Brian Bouler's their operator. And he's, he actually just, yeah, he's a stud. He just became the director of the property management. So he's running all property management and he just hired an operator to replace himself from a Fortune 50 company. Right? So this is like once you have your operator fully functioning as an operator, you get her out of CFO role and you get her into being an operator, then we can start to install DoorGrow OS, get that team to the next level. And part of that plan, I think for your 90 days would be to start to focus on that sales side. If you're ready to ramp up lead gen and growth, then we get you maybe a setter initially, and then we get you a full-time BDM or you can jump straight to getting a BDM and we help you find somebody that can just crush it at sales. We identify the right personality type, they're great at this, and they will go out and just make it rain and create business for you.  [00:34:13] Jeff: I got the hiccups all of a sudden, so I'm like, this is going to look great in the podcast.  [00:34:17] Jason: You're just so excited about the future. Excited. Yeah. And you know, and that BDM could also, and then I think what you would do, if you want to focus on the growth side, if that's still fun for you, you just go out and find more acquisition deals. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. You can even get your BDM to start hunting for acquisition deals as well and feed them to you, and then you do double barrel close that way. They're feeding you to close it. Right? So, anyway, I think that's going to be the next level for you and, you know, maybe what I would maybe have your CFO do is do a time study and maybe you do a time study if you haven't done one for a while, so that you can see where can you support her even more and more quickly to get things off of her plate. What are you doing? Which things do you love the most? Which things don't you? And start to take some things off of her plate and give them to other team members as quick as possible. So, and then you'll know like, this is what she spent her time doing over the last two weeks. You're like, cool, we, these are minus signs. These are things that are lower level dollar an hour work. Let's define these processes and we make that a goal and all that. When you have a cadence and a planning system, you can plug all that into your goals. Like one of your quarterly goals would be transition CFO to operator, for example. Yeah. So we could start to build out those systems even right now with her, we just need to get you and her on board with that. And then you'll see things start to go even faster because you're already working a plan. When we put the plan in a way that everyone else can see it and everyone can contribute, the whole business starts to go faster. Otherwise, it's you pushing her and her pushing everybody else, and it's very top down. When you create a bottom up system, you'll start to feel a lot of momentum. Okay. It's a weird feeling when you start to feel the team pulling you forward instead of you pushing them forward.  [00:36:10] Jeff: So, when you say that, what does that, what do you call that then? Like when you're saying bottom up, you know? When you, everything you just said, like, what is that? Like, what do I call that?  [00:36:21] Jason: So I call that the planning system or DoorGrow OS, the operating system. The operating. So we want to get this operating system installed so that there's this planning cadence and communication. So I'd start with by doing a six core functions assessment with your team brainstorming session. That'll be quarterly planning and it'll take like an hour and a half or two hours. First time you do this as a team.  [00:36:44] Jeff: That's all in os. That whole process is an OS. The step-by-step on that. That was my direction. I need OS, and I need Flow, and I'm like, oh, another thing I got to plan.  [00:36:53] Jason: Yeah that's DoorGrow OS. The planning system. What's cool about it and, if you do the math on this, right? Let's say you do in your annual planning, you spend maybe an hour, a half. Your quarterly planning, you do four times a year. You spend maybe an hour, a half, two hours, right? Each of your monthly planning meetings, which you have 12, that adds up to 12 hours, maybe an hour each, right? Then you're doing your weekly commitments meetings every week. Maybe you'll do about 50 of those a year. Maybe those take an hour, sometimes even just 30 minutes, depending on the size of your team and the aggressiveness of your goals. And the goal on a weekly basis is to hit 80% of your weekly commitments. That's a lot of goals getting achieved. This is outside of the tactical work, outside of the day-to-day work. This is innovating and moving the business forward towards your core functions and what the business needs most and what you need most. [00:37:49] If you stack and add all this up, maybe even add a culture meeting here or there, and you add your daily huddles with your teams that are like maybe 15, 20 minutes, all that combined adds up to, you can run the entire business on 300 hours a year, and it eliminates a massive amount of 'got a minute?'s, sneaker net communication, interruptions, and it makes the business far more efficient.  [00:38:14] Jeff: And that's all lined out in OS. Like I start OS, it's like everything step by step. I can do this. How?  [00:38:22] Jason: Yes. However, my disclaimer is, this is not stuff that you're going to want to do. This is stuff that your operator will probably enjoy doing. Okay, but not you. Okay. Like me, I hear a bunch of meetings. My initial gut reaction is like, "oh gosh, shoot me now." Right? Yeah. Like that sounds like a cumbersome and a waste of my time. It actually speeds you up and speeds up the business and gives you more time, but you don't want to run it. You need somebody else to run it because otherwise you end up as the emperor with no clothes because everybody's going to agree to you, say "whatever Jeff says," you need somebody else to run it. And you're last to speak in all these meetings. Yeah. Then you'll start to see the magic and the genius of your team. because some of them are more closely connected to some of the things that need to shift or move or be innovated or move forward than you are, right? Your maintenance coordinator can see what's going on in maintenance and they probably have ideas. And so this will allow them to start to, you know, bubble up some of these ideas and it'll allow them to innovate. When team members don't get deadlines and outcomes that they're given to achieve. And then they can see that there's need for improvement, instead of innovating, they go and try and spend more of your money. Yeah, exactly. And so the team gets more expensive. And then you, if you give them a blank check, they'll just spend like, "let's go buy this new thing and let's buy that. And that might do this," right? When you give your team a deadline and some constraints and an outcome, they will start to get creative and innovate, and you want your team members to start to think like that. That turns them into intrapreneurs. So getting this system installed, I think will be the big next level thing, and we can start getting that installed right away so Sarah can help you get that set up. And set up a call with you and your operator and you're already working on some goals. So let's just get those goals into a system where everyone can see and make sure you start to move the plan forward, create the plan, work the plan, and you'll start to see the team move forward way faster. [00:40:16] So I'm excited for you man.  [00:40:19] Jeff: Can you believe I got the hiccups? I get hiccups like once every 10 years. I get in the middle of the podcast. Yeah, I'm very excited about that because here's the truth is you're right, like you get to this place at, you know, 150 doors on my own right, that's capacity really no capacity would've been much higher. But doing it well, capacity was 150 doors. Now I'm at 400 something and we're going, well, yeah. I think I could add another a hundred doors before anything breaks, but I know we're there. We're 50 to a hundred doors away from having to do new stuff again. Yeah. I can feel it. And so that's exciting, but dreadful to think, to have to implement myself. [00:40:59] I think that's why I've kind of like, "let's just wait till we get everything we're doing dialed it perfectly before I get into that," but I need to just suck it up. I got to call with Sarah coming up the next couple days and I just need to tell her, okay, let's do OS, whatever. Tell me what to do next. Let's go. [00:41:14] Jason: Yeah. And really we're just going to start working on creating a plan. Then we'll put in the software and you'll start to see when you start having these weekly meetings with your team, you're going to start to see stuff move forward. Like our goal, we sometimes have like 40 things in a single week that we're working on as a team outside of our daily work, like 40 tasks that are assigned to different team members. [00:41:38] And my team members do not want to show up with a red 'no.' Yeah. And this increases their performance level, like you would not believe. They want green yeses when they show up on Monday for our weekly commitments meeting. And that means we are really likely to get all of our 30 day goals done, which means we're really likely to get all of our quarterly goals done because they're all connected. [00:41:59] Yeah. You'll start to see your business move forward really quickly. This is a next level thing. So I'm excited for you to get that installed. because first, you got to have an operator. because I've tried to do it on my own without an operator and I really, I get lazy because I just don't like it. Like, I don't like running the meetings. I'm like, "all right, anyone's stuck on anything? Let's move forward faster." And I just skip steps and I tell people, do things, but when the team starts to run this, your operator will start to run the business. The business will start to run itself. Things will start to move forward without you, and then instead of you feeling like you're the entrepreneur pulling your entire team up the hill in a wagon, which is what it feels like until you get a system like this, you're going to start to see them moving forward ahead of you, and you're going to be the one that is in the wagon and they're pulling you up the hill. You're just going to be there like giving some feedback, coaching them, supporting them, but you'll start to see the business move forward. I'm the biggest constraint on my team. Sarah and the team are using DoorGrow OS, and they're moving the whole business forward constantly. And they're like, "Jason, keep up. We need more from you." And so they're keeping me accountable now. I don't need to keep them accountable because I've got A players and I've got a system that brings that out in them. So that's the next level. Cool, man. Awesome. Well, hey, thanks for coming on the podcast and being vulnerable and sharing some of your struggles and your wins. [00:43:23] Really appreciate you as a client.  [00:43:25] Jeff: Yeah. Appreciate you too, man. It's been a huge life changer. So cool. Well, keep pushing me.  [00:43:32] Jason: Yeah, we'll keep going. We'll get you to that next level as well. So, thousand doors, here we come!  [00:43:37] Jeff: Here we come. All right.  [00:43:39] Jason: All right, thanks. See you. All right, so if you are a property management entrepreneur and you're wanting to get some coaching, you're tired of not having anyone in your corner, maybe nobody's believing in you, maybe not even your spouse is believing in you right now, and you need some hope, you want to have some results like Jeff, you're wanting to move your business forward. We would love to coach and help and support you. Join our mastermind. You can check us out at doorgrow.com. If you're looking like to get nurtured and warmed up a little bit more and you're not really sure about those DoorGrow people, then go to doorgrowclub.com. Join our free Facebook group. We give out better free stuff than most coaches in this industry give out that's paid, and you're going to get access to our master classes and some really cool stuff in there. Join that and you're going to see that we care and we want to see you succeed. And that will hopefully be a nice pathway into you becoming a client and working with DoorGrow and taking your business to that next level. And finally getting what you deserve, getting paid what you deserve, and having the business that you dream of having. [00:44:47] Until next time everybody, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone.  [00:44:51] Jason Hull: You just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:45:18] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

This is our next installment of our series called The Church the World Needs. In this series we are looking at how the church operated in the book of Acts. In this episode, Brad and Jeff recap where we've been, and discuss more around Paul's sermon.  Some extra notes from Jeff: It's intriguing that the Eunuch would journey to Jerusalem specifically to worship, as Mosaic Law forbade them from entering the temple/synagogue to worship (Deut 23:1). Perhaps since he had Isaiah 53 on parchment, there is a good chance he also had Isaiah 56 as well, or had at least read it. Isaiah 56:3-5 has a promise specifically for eunuchs who hold fast and true to the commandments and will of God's covenant to receive "an everlasting name which will not be eliminated." Perhaps that is what spurred him to visit Jerusalem for worship in the first place. Several biblical scholars see relevance in a possible link from the Acts 8 story to the prophecies in Zephaniah 2-3 concerning Cushites, specifically the prophecy in Zephaniah 3:10. Ethiopians are the descendants of the Cushites. The city in Gaza had been destroyed and then rebuilt in a new location decades before, and the old city was known as "Desert Gaza." The specific linguistic reference in Acts 8:26 harkens back to Zephaniah and reinforces the viable prophecy connection. If you have any questions that you'd like to see us tackle in future episodes, shoot us an email at podcasts@calvary.church and we will make sure to include them!

Episode Show Notes In this episode we cover:  Why accessibility is important What is assistive technology Easy ways to make our content more accessible How to use alt text The four main principles of accessibility This week's question is: Tell me something interesting you've learned this year. Recommendation of the week is: Guava Flavored Lies by JJ Arias Apple Kobo Amazon UK Amazon USA ***this show uses affiliate links Find out more about Jeff, Michele and accessible content: Content For Everyone Buy the Book Here Color Contrast Checker Rebel of the Week is: Angel Ackerman If you'd like to be a Rebel of the week please do send in your story, it can be any kind of rebellion. You can email your rebel story to rebelauthorpodcast@gmail.com 1 new patron this week, welcome and thank you to Wendy Karas. A big thank you to my existing patrons as well. If you'd like to support the show, and get early access to all the episodes as well as bonus content you can from as little as $2 a month by visiting: www.patreon.com/sachablack   Transcript: Sacha: This is The Rebel Author Podcast, where we talk about books, business and occasionally bad words. Hello rebels, and welcome to episode 180. Today, I'm talking to Jeff and Michele all about accessible content and making our books, our social media, our websites more accessible for more readers. But first to last week's question, which was: what book has gotten you out of a reading slump? Carrie says, "I'm still in a slump. I'm always so tired by the time I have time to read that I can read a few pages before I shut down. I think I need an audible subscription again." Heather says, "The book that recently got me out of reading slump was the rage read that was Iron Widow, and it was just what I needed." Claire said, "Another Stupid Love Song by Miranda McLeod and Em Stevens. Last summer, I was racially abused on my way home and followed to the train station by a group of white man." I'm already fucking livid reading this. "It was really traumatic, and I fell into a deep depression afterwards. Stopped going out, stopped writing and reading." I hate reading this. I'm so sorry. "But then I saw Miranda mention that she had a new age gap romance. And the part of me that felt curious about stories began to wake up when I started reading the straightforward writing style, fast pacing and promise of a happily ever after made a good book to start with." I seriously don't know what the fuck is wrong with people. Like, I'm not going to get into a whole load of politics and opinions right now, but just know that reading that made me really crass, and I'm really sorry that you experienced that. I'm really really glad that reading and story and happy ever afters have helped you to at least heal a little bit from that experience. This week's question is: tell me something interesting that you've learned this year. We are heading towards the end of the first quarter. What the fuck? And so I want to know, what have you learned this year? It could be something small. It could be something not at all about writing. It could be anything really. So yeah, it can be about yourself as well. Let me know what you have learned about something this year. Okay, the book recommendation of the week this week is Guava Flavored Lies by JJ Arias. JJ is a fuckin master of bickering. This is the same JJ who interviewed me in the Ruby Roe launch episode. And JJ is coming on the show. We are literally just in the process of booking a date. Oh my god, I had the pleasure of reading Guava Flavored Lies in audio, and it was so good. It was the breath of fresh air that I needed. And okay, so let me tell you about it instead of just keep fucking ranting about how good it is. It's a contemporary romance, sapphic romance, contemporary sapphic romance with two Cuban families rowing. They've got a shit ton of like history, familial history, and like generational arguments between them. They're both pastry chef families and they own like pastry shops. The bickering went back to school girl days, and I've just never read anything where the bickering was so real and so funny and so brilliant. And I just like I literally laughed, and I don't know, I don't know. I think it actually will go down as my favorite contemporary romance that I've ever read. I loved it that much. It's kind of rivals to lovers as well. Yeah, enemies to lovers, rivals to lovers. Probably rivals to lovers, I would say. Just because there are no like stabbing knives. But it is just fantastic. So if you are looking for an example of dialogue that is sharp as fuck, and bickering that is just fantastic between two love interests, this is the story for you. I highly, highly recommend this book. Of course, links will be in the show notes. So in personal news and updates, I'm sick again. Literally can't fucking believe it. Woke up a couple of days ago feeling like rough as a dog, and I just honestly, I really want this to be a positive episode. I hate being whiny, you know what I'm like, I like to charge forward at 1000 miles per hour all of the time, and always look to the goal, to the future, to the whatever. I just, I'm struggling this week. It is a struggle. I am exhausted again. And I genuinely don't think it's any one thing in my life particularly, I just think it is the fact that it's all combined. And I really need to fucking slow down or like, not slow down, but just like take something off my plate before I crash and burn, because I sort of feel like this is a mini physical burnout. I have decided to reduce boot camps slightly. Instead of going five times a week, I'm gonna go three times a week for now. And I'm going to move one of those to the weekend so that I get a little bit more time in the week during the working days so that I can, you know, not work in the evenings so much. But yeah, I'm really over being sick this year. It is alarm bells to me. I am acutely aware that this is a problem and that I need to have a holiday or take some time off. The problem is I'm really shit at taking time off at home because my office is at home. So, you know, that's why I like to travel because then the office isn't here, the temptation isn't here. It's probably a very privileged thing to say. But you know, I do struggle to take time off at home. It just is what it is. It's a fact. So that's kind of where I'm at. Yeah, I don't feel well, and I would like to not be working today, if I'm honest. But there are things that need doing and things that have deadlines. So on I go. In terms of what I've been working on, I have started The Villains Journey. I'm super excited. I have been trying Rachel's method, which I know you guys will have heard about last week on The Black Herron. Oh, no, no. So for those listening on the podcast, you won't have heard about this yet. But for those on Patreon, you will have heard about it. So in the coming episode, Rachel and I discussed the fact that she started writing 500 new words a day on anything. They can be any project. And I was like, oh, that's amazing. And basically, if you do it every single day of the year, I think it's about 182,000 words a year. That's like three books, or more if you write nonfiction and shorter word counts. And I'm not going to do it every single day, I'm just trying to do it every working day. And so yeah, I have started The Villains Journey, and I'm already 3000 words in. I know that doesn't sound like a lot, but I'm not supposed to start writing this until May, you know, and at this rate, I can go to May with about 20k in the bag. So feels like a lot to me. I'm very, very happy. I'm about 19,000 words into the second Girl Games book. This is the one that I already had 30k in, but no, as you know, I more or less scrapped it. I have salvage some of the stuff from the first version, and so yeah, I'm 19,000 words into the book. I've been doing about 5000-word days, which is great. And using a write to sprint in the morning, and that's really been helping. So yeah, I feel pretty good about the writing projects. And it's really nice to be writing words. I find that I get to a point where I'm exhausted and don't want to write anymore, probably because I burned so hard, and then I like get very sick and tired of doing the marketing or the entity or whatever it is, and want to go back to doing the drafting. So it's a good schedule to have to be able to switch between the two. So when you hear this, it will be my birthday week. And I am considering, given that I'm not feeling very well, that I might take a couple of days off. I don't know, we'll see. I would like to go down to London and go to the Big Waterstones and like spend some time in there, but we'll see. I don't know whether or not I'll actually get to do that. But it would be nice to, so we'll see. You know, given that I'm not feeling very well, I think that is probably everything that I'm going to update you with this week. So the rebel of the week this week is, and I have to say, I did pause for a second and have to reread the name, It's Angel Ackerman, which when you write it and you read quickly, very much read as Angela Ackerman. Not Angela Ackerman, ladies and gentlemen, it's definitely Angel Ackerman. So let me read Angel's story to you. "I work in the Stitch Fix warehouse in Pennsylvania folding clothes for eight hours a day. I'm a former journalist and needed a low stress job that could allow me time and energy to pursue my own creative interests. At the warehouse, which Stitch Fix refers to as Hizzies, with cute names for each, we are the Buzzy Hizzy, but there is also the breezy, the hoozy, the dizzy, and the fizzy. I'm allowed to listen to podcasts, and so as a writer, I discovered The Rebel Author podcast and many others in the industry. "I have racked my brain trying to capture a rebel story from memory and suddenly I realized my whole creative side hustle is rebellion. I founded Parisian Phoenix Publishing in 2021 as the brand behind my paranormal women's fiction series, Fashion and Fiends, debuting with the first volume, Manipulations, in September of that year. "One of my best friends is a graphic designer with an obsession with typography. In her first job as a graphic design professor had invented the name and logo for the company and a complete boxset of the novels in 2008, just to have something to submit for the faculty art show. At the time, I was shopping my novels to traditional publishers and agents, attending conferences and serving on the board of my local writers group. Motherhood prevented me from giving proper effort to that, and the book industry was changing so much in the aughts. "When the pandemic happened, I thought it would be fun and rebellious to self-publish preserve these stories for my now teen daughter. But the project barrel rolled into a full-fledged craft press as more people asked me to publish their books. I asked fellow writers and artists for help with projects being proposed because linking creative communities is one of our goals. "As of 2023 Parisian Phoenix has nine published books ranging from an anthology of marginalized voices, LGBTQ disability, mental health, body image, ethnicity, etc., to a romantic comedy with original photographs, a devotional focusing on how to protect yourself in a violent modern world without violating your Christian values in production, and an 11th book of short stories in the editing phase. Not to mention, poetry, a holocaust memoir, and nostalgic fiction. "Each book seems to host its own rebellion. Our tagline is: publishing unique voices and diverse perspectives. And many of our staff members and peer review board members have disabilities. I have cerebral palsy. My assistant editor has been blind since birth. And we have primarily women on board." This is an awesome, awesome rebellion. And yeah, look up Parisian Phoenix if you are interested in finding out more about them. I think this is such a cool rebellion, and the fact that you are creating communities and collecting people and helping to bring diverse voices into the world is just fantastic. So I absofuckinglutely love that rebellion. And also thank you for listening. If you would like to be a rebel of the week, please do send in your story. It can be any kind of rebellion, something big, something small, or something in between. You can email your rebel story to Becca over on rebelauthorpodcast@gmail.com. A huge welcome and a warm thank you to new patron Wendy Karis. And of course, a gigantic thank you to all of my existing patrons. You guys help keep the show running. You make me feel like what I do is worthwhile and having a wonderful impact, so I really, really appreciate each and every single one of you. If you would like to support the show and get early access to all of the episodes, as well as a ton of bonus content, then you can from as little as $2 a month by visiting patreon.com/sachablack. Okay, that's it from me this week. Let's get on with the episode. Hello, and welcome to The Rebel Author Podcast. We are in for a special treat today because we have not one, but two guests on the show. First, we have Jeff Adams. Jeff is a creative entrepreneur, as an author of both queer romances and young adult fiction, as well as the co-host of The Big Gay Fiction Podcast. In his day job, Jeff's a certified professional and accessibility core competencies by the International Association of Accessibility Professionals. As the Accessibility Operations Director for UsableNet, a company focused on making the digital world more accessible and usable, he consults with clients around the world about digital accessibility. Next up we have Michele Lucchini. Michele is the Vice President of Delivery and Accessibility Operations for UsableNet and overseas the teams responsible for ensuring client success in their digital accessibility program. Michele's background is rooted in software development first, and moving to team and operation management later. Thanks to experience gathered in over two decades, Michele is an expert at helping companies from the largest to the smallest, making their digital experiences accessible. Hello, and welcome. Jeff: Thanks for having us, Sacha. It's great to be here. Sacha: So Jeff, you were first on the show back in episode 55, which I can't actually believe because that was October 2020. Jeff: It feels like a year ago, like years and years and years ago. Sacha: I know. I know. I mean, honestly, time is a lie. I was texting one of my friends this evening who was talking about the movie, Everything Everywhere... Jeff: Everything Everywhere All at Once, I think. Sacha: Yes, that one. And I was like, "Oh yeah, yeah, that was out like three years ago." And she was like, "Oh, actually, no, it's up for the Oscars now." And I was like, "Wait, what? No, no, no. It could not possibly have been out last year." Though it was. Yeah, time is a lie. It's weird. So normally I ask people like what their journey is, how they came to writing the book. But I'm gonna ask you first of all, like, what have you been up to since then? Because obviously, we know like your journey from the first episode, which I'll link in the show notes. Jeff: It's interesting as I went back to look at 55, and like what was going on in October of 2020. Like, within the month before you dropped that episode, so between the time we talked for that interview and you dropped the episode, we actually ended The Big Gay Author Podcast, which is one of the things we were talking about on that show. Mostly, because with pandemic and other things that were going on, like some of our priorities shifted, and it's like, we weren't sure that show was really relevant anymore. So as it's so popular, now, we learned how to say no and learned when to end something, and put that aside. Big Gay Fiction Podcast continues on. It went into its eighth year last November, so we're 400+ episodes now there. So that's been exciting. I've written the book we're about to talk about. And the neat thing about that, I think, is writing this nonfiction book, I think has resparked my fiction side a little bit, because I've been really stagnant over the last couple of years. I've done some rereleases of some things I got the rights back on, but writing new stuff has really been a struggle. So my fingers crossed, that the nonfiction kind of broke that kind of cloud over my head, if you will, and I'm gonna be able to hopefully get some new fiction out this year. Sacha: I always find nonfiction is a real palate cleanser. Like I adore fiction, but I definitely need to also write nonfiction, because it gets me excited to go back to the fiction. Otherwise, I do tend to find it's a bit of a burn. So Michele, have you written other books? Or is this your first one? Or? Michele: That's the very first one. Sacha: That's exciting. Michele: The last thing I wrote was my thesis at the university. And that was far from exciting. Well, actually, it was in home automation, so it was actually an interesting topic. But I've always loved writing, but I never dedicated myself enough to call myself like a producer or a writer of a proper book. Sacha: So before we dive into the questions like about the book, then how did you find writing, and writing together? Like what was the experience like for you? Michele: Well, let's also consider that it's not my mother language, right. So it was an extremely interesting experience. So I had the opportunity to learn on many different threads. So one is the challenge of transferring something that is my daily job knowledge, and the knowledge that has been built across 22 years, that I would use the word dedicate to this topic. Plus, learning the ability to put in words for somebody who is not an expert. One of the limits that I realize I have is that sometimes when you gather so much experience, you can lose the ability to explain and translate it in easy terms. I think that Jeff has experienced the same. I remember the first iteration of our review process, we were asking ourselves, does it make any sense for somebody if it's their first time approaching the topic of accessibility? So it was an interesting learning curve, but it was what made all the project extremely interesting for me. Sacha: Well, you both absolutely smashed it because it's the most meta book possible. For a book on accessibility, it's extremely accessible for someone who knows nothing about it. So you absolutely smashed it out of the park. So well done, both of you. And that is what we're here to talk about. And your new book is called Content for Everyone. And it focuses on the topic of accessibility. So before we dive into some more technical, practical tips and tricks, like why accessibility? What made you want to write a book on this topic? And why is it so important, particularly for the authors and writers listening? Jeff: The whole thing kind of became this big smashing together of my day job in accessibility. But the things that I do on the creative side, so even before the book was kind of a seed in my head to do, I was trying to make sure that my sites, my email, my social media, were as accessible as I could make them. You know, because I'm not technical. Knowing what you need to do and actually being able to do it can be two different things, you know. So, moving through this, and as I talked about content accessibility all the time, it's one of the things I trained UsableNet clients about, is that very topic. It's so in my brain, I can't not see issues almost everywhere I go on the net. No alt text on Facebook, bad color combinations here, things that don't work with keyboard. You know, all these things just keep being in front of me. And I know that nobody sets out to do that. You know, nobody sets out to make inaccessible content that can exclude, potentially, a lot of people. They just don't know what to do. And they don't know what the topic is. So it's like, why don't I try to create something that distills what you can work on, and also to a degree, things to watch out for, because there are things in the book that are--and keyboard navigation is a great example of this, and we'll probably talk about a little bit more about that piece of it later. But you're not going to fix your own keyboard navigation issues, but if you know you have them, you might get a new template or do something to start to mitigate those problems. And so that's kind of where it started. And then one day, as I was talking with Michele, as we do all the time, I was like, I'm gonna write this book. And he was interested, so we decided to kind of tackle it together. Sacha: I love this so much. And like, I think it was such a humbling experience for me to read as well, because my stepfather is disabled, and he uses a wheelchair. And so I have a reasonable amount of knowledge about accessibility in terms of like mobility and physical issues. And so I kind of went into the book thinking, oh, yeah, like, I'm gonna understand. Holy moly, I was so ignorant of digital issues. Like all of the bits and bobs, like on social media. Like just things that I wouldn't even have thought would be an issue. And that's what I love so much about this book is I genuinely feel like every single person listening to this podcast will go away having learned something. So I think it's really important that listeners do go and educate themselves, and buy your book, I read your book, because it's fucking brilliant. So in your book, one of the things that you talk about are the four main types of disability. And I think it'd be helpful for listeners to understand what they are to give some context to the rest of the podcast. And I don't know if you are able just to give some like references to a couple of the numbers, which were really quite significant. And I was quite shocked when I read it and saw some of those stats. You know, and by that, I mean, sort of how many people are affected by disability. So yeah, because this is an important topic. Michele: Yeah, it is. And numbers are shocking. And I think that we can identify four main categories of disabilities, which is mobility. And this is the largest group, so over 13%, almost 14%, of US population as some mobility impairment. So translated into a digital experience, it could be something preventing the user to use emails, or a regular pointing device. The second category is the cognitive disability. And here we are talking about over 10% of the US population. Any cognitive disorder, it could be learning difficulties, dyslexia, and I'm not just talking about very, very bad disabilities, but just simple conditions that are not preventing an individual to conduct a normal life. The third category is the auditory ability. The count is around 6% of the population. And the auditory disability is any form of hearing loss. And last but not least, is the visual disability. Here we are around 5% of the population. So within the visual disability, of course, we include the blind individual categories, but we might have any kind of low vision, color blindness, contrast deficits, and all impairments that are preventing a user to be able to see colors or transfer the content as the mainstream, which is a word I hate and a concept I hate, will experience on this side. There is one more, in my opinion, a shocking number. Beside the fact that with easy math, we are seeing that 20% of the population as a sort of disability. 20% of your audience, your customers potentially have a sort of visibility. But in these 20%, we're not counting all the temporary impairments. So somebody that broke his arm, somebody that is using his mobile phone under the sunlight, and the sun is hitting the screen and he's not able to see as well as he'd be able to see the screen in the dark. We are now also considering that the age of the digital population is increasing year after a year. I always use an example, so my dad is 74. He is active, smart, quick. His expectation is to keep interacting with his mobile phone, for example, as it is right now. Why should he accept that as his sight is becoming a little bit lower, as his precision with the movements might degredate. In the course of the years, he won't be able to use his phone, he won't be able to do what he's doing with his computer. So that becomes a basic expectation. So we need to take that in consideration. So that 20%, actually, is much, much more if we are considering all the, let's call them disability induced by the context of use. Or simply the population getting older. Sacha: I think one of the things that I found enlightening is the term assistive technology and what that captures. Because I think many of us are actually using some of these technologies without even realizing that actually, they are tools that help those people who do have accessibility issues. I know I certainly was like, oh, you know, I was just using this because this is a handy thing. And actually, they're integral to ensure that our content is accessible for everybody. So I wondered if you could talk about what assistive technology is and give some like examples, just to put it into context. Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. It's something that, as you noted, we use it every day and don't even think about it. You and I are wearing assistive technology right now, Sacha, because we're both in glasses. Think about what you would not be able to see if you didn't have your glasses on. Sacha: I really couldn't. Jeff: You know, it'd be a mess. Using speech to text technology, I think we use it all the time. Authors certainly use it a lot to dictate their manuscripts. You know, if you're dictating a text to your phone, and then sending it that way, or interacting with any home assistant, that's part of it. But also for some people who maybe are restricted in the mobility area, they may use speech to text of that kind to literally navigate the web. And that would be what they'd use in place of a mouse is speaking to the computer. The keyboard itself is a big assistive tool for some people, because theoretically, you know, by the rules of accessibility, you should be able to interact with the site completely on your keyboard, without interacting with the mouse at all. So things like that, you know, are some of the high level things. But then each of our computers, if we're on any kind of, you know, modern Mac or Windows machine, or if we're using Android or iOS phones and tablets, all of those have a huge array of accessibility things built right into them. Whether it's a screen reader, Zoom technology, more around voice to text, a whole bunch of things. And I would really encourage people to look in their settings for their computer and their devices just to see the long list of things that are present that people could use to be interacting with their digital content. Sacha: So like what is the consequence of this to authors if they don't engage with making their content accessible? Michele: I think that the easiest to perceive consequence is they may leave out of the door a good portion of a potential audience or potential customers. But besides the numbers, beside the, let's say, business aspect, I like to think about the impact on potential reputation. Michele: The impact on the idea that the audience, the customer, might have on just ignoring categories of people. So we need to, I think that it is time for us to all get sensitized on the fact that we need to build a more inclusive world. I mean, it is everyone's responsibility, it is not Jeff's, it is not Michele's, it is not Sacha's responsibility only. It is not an expert's responsibility only. Everyone can provide a contribution. So, in my opinion, the impact on the reputation is probably getting to be the most prominent one. And this is what my advice is. Jeff: If you think about the whole idea that not doing this excludes people, and of course, I think all of us creatives really want to be about inclusion. We talk in the book, we talked to four different people in the book who have different disabilities, and in some cases, different multiple disabilities. And one of the things that struck me was speaking to one of my fellow authors in the queer romance space. They were trying to interact with courses, you know, there's a whole array of courses available to independent authors for ads, and for marketing here, and marketing there, and writing craft and all these things. And repeatedly, they are not finding courses where like the live courses don't have live captions through whatever venue it is. And certainly Zoom is really good at live captions for any call that you're doing there. But even in the replays, captions or transcripts weren't available. So they either, you know, don't get to interact with the training at all because they're deaf and hard of hearing. I mean, they've got hearing aids, but those only give them about 30 - 40% of the full picture. So they either strain to hear that content, and try to work on it, which of course is taxing and tiring, or they abandon it all together. And they really feel like they're not getting information that other authors get because, you know, they're not included in that experience. Sacha: Yeah, transcripts is a real sticking point for me, because when I first started the podcast, I used to do transcripts for the show. But at moment, I only have school working hours, and you know, each transcript for an episode is a two hour job. You know, when you do four a month, that's a whole lot. That's more than one working day, and I just can't afford the time. But it is something that I provide for courses. And I do try to make sure I do video audio transcript, and you know, all of that stuff. It's very frustrating for me because I would like to have the sort of AI transcription software be more accurate because I can't just transcribe and leave it and put it up because there are things still that don't make sense. It's not accurate enough. And obviously, outsourcing, it's costly. So that's one of the things for me that I know that I could change, and I would really like to change. But obviously, it's a costly exercise one way or the or another. So we know that it's important to make sure our books and websites and social media are accessible to everyone. So what are some easy wins that people could take away from this episode? Anything practical that we could do to make our content more accessible? Jeff: You kind of hit on one of the things there in what you just said around auto generated. Auto generated anything doesn't make it accessible. Auto generated transcripts or captions are just riddled with mistakes. They come close, they're about 95% of the way there, and they're a great point to start the editing process, but they're not complete. And they will leave your audience feeling the same way, like if you just put out a first draft of a book without any copy editing and without any fixes to it. That's also true for alternative text because Facebook and Instagram, for example, will put alt text on anything you upload to it, and it's horrible. It'll be like, "might be one person standing outside with a beard," because they've got a beard on their face. And they'll just kind of tag that on the end. And it'll also try to read any text that's actually in the image. And if you think about those very popular book promo graphics right now with the book in the middle and all the little arrows pointing with like tropes and plot points and stuff. Sacha: I posted one of those today. Jeff: The AI will actually read left to right, trying to read each line of that, including the book title and the bylines, and present that. That's what Facebook offers. So you need to make sure on social that you're cleaning up the alt text that's present there so that it's not just some real garbage that's sitting there. Then another key I would give, knowing how everybody loves to use emojis, really limit the use of them. Like put them at the end to like finish the punctuation on a post or a sentence or something. Don't start with them, because especially for screen readers, each emoji has its own thing that it reads out, that may not be the context that you want it to be. Don't put emojis between the words for the same reason. Also you think about cognitively disabled people and emojis as well. The context and the way you want those to be perceived, if somebody is already having to parse the words you're putting in there because maybe they're dyslexic and they need a very clean line of text, or some other cognitive disability, you're just making it that much harder for them to get the message that you're trying to give because you're trying to add some visual sparkle with the emojis. So I would say that those are my three quick hits on some things that can start to make the content more accessible. Sacha: Yeah, I still remember the first time somebody asked me to put captions on my stories. And as far as I'm aware, they have no accessibility issues, but they used to watch my stories at work, and they couldn't watch them with sound on. I was like, "oh," and I was like, "yeah, sure, I can do that." And then, obviously, there were other comments from other people who were like, "Oh, actually, now I can like watch your story, like watch/read your stories." And like, that was a real eye opener. I just think so much of this is just pure, like, what's the word? Not nefarious, but it is still ignorance. You know, it's just accidental ignorance in a way. But the emojis, I definitely do far too many emojis and I am going to make an effort to make sure they're at the end instead. I definitely start with emojis, I put them in the middle, you don't even think about it. So yeah, now I will be thinking about it going forward. Okay, so you've just mentioned alt text there. But I wondered if you could give me an example of what good alt text is because I do some freelance work managing a blog, and I know that when we have pictures, we're supposed to put alt text on there. I never really know what it is I am supposed to be describing or what I'm supposed to be putting into the alt text sections. So like, how do I know where I'm supposed to use it and when it's not actually needed? And how do I know what a good sentence is to put in there? Michele: Somebody says that finding the right alt text is like an art. And I actually agree with that. There is no magic recipe to define a good alternative text. We always recommend it is important to understand what role an image plays within the context. The context of what? It could be the context of the page, the context of the message we are communicating. So in the case an image is purely decorative, you're just using an image as a sort of placeholder, an extremely nice placeholder, but it's only conveying a decorative meaning, in that case, your alternative tags should be empty. It does not mean that you don't have to put the alt attribute, because if you don't, assistive technology will read the file name of the image, making it very difficult to understand for the final user. But setting the alternative tax as an empty, the assistive technology will know that that image will need to be ignored. So it won't be read. Instead, if the image is conveying a message, an important message, you should describe it with the right message. I mean it was funny for us, not in the context that we found the issue, it was the classic search icon, the magnifier lens, and so the site we were reviewing had, as an alternative text of the magnifier lengths, magnifier length. Instead, there was supposed to be search, because the function of the image was search, it was not magnifying something. So you can just imagine how confusing would have been the experience of a blind user using a screen reader that was hearing that there was an input text field on the page, so maybe that is what I can use to search something, and then magnifier lens. When you experience that, people with disabilities now have a bad website. With very little effort, you can fix it, you can make your site more accessible and more meaningful to everyone. Sacha: Yeah, that's so interesting, because obviously, you derive meaning from seeing the image, but actually, it's the function of the image that's the important bit. I think that's a fantastic bit of learning for everybody to take away. One of the other things you talk about in the book are the four main principles of accessibility on a website. And I think these are things that authors should be aware of. So I wondered if you could just briefly go over them. Michele: Yeah, sure. The web content accessibility guideline, which is the sort of Bible to determine whether a digital property is accessible or not, are four. And actually, those four principles also apply to everyday object accessibility. So the first one is perceivable. It means that any user must be able to perceive the content and the interface of your website. So we just did the example around the alternative text, that falls under the perceivable principle. The second principle is operable. So it requires to provide the ability for all users, independently by their abilities, to operate with user interface. The classic example is, let's consider a motor impairment, and it prevents the user to interact with the mouse. So the site must provide the ability for the user to use just the keyboard to interact and browse the site. The third principle is understandable, which probably is the easiest to understand. So the interface and the content must be understandable to the user. This actually, on some of these success criteria, it becomes extremely interesting because it also covers cultural disabilities. So the use of an easy language and all these aspects are, I think, extremely interesting for authors. And last but not least, is the final principle, which is the robust. It is probably the most technical principle that is included into the guideline, but it is all about respecting the standards, and respecting the core compatibility. One of the things that we always have to remember is that users with disabilities are massively relying on their system. So they are probably not upgrading them 30 seconds after the operative system notifies us that there is an upgrade ready to be installed. They don't do that because the risk of losing the ability to, for example, have the system working as it was working before, it might generate a big problem. Imagine a blind user that relies on his computer or any screen reader to order the food, to book the train ticket, to book a taxi. If after the upgrade, it won't work anymore or won't work as it was working before, considering that learning how to use a screen reader is probably a multiyear experience. Sacha: I find that so interesting. Actually, that's going to make me slightly more empathetic, I think. So with my stepdad, we often help like change bills over and do things like internet swap over, but there's a lot of resistance to like upgrading. And I was like, you need better internet, like you need it. And, you know, I wasn't particularly empathetic about it, but actually I get it now. I get it. Yeah, I can understand because so much is reliant on the existing system. And I'm just like, yeah, well, we can change it and upgrade it and make it better. But actually, when there are so many systems, you know, phone systems and call systems and nurse systems that are based on it, I can understand why there's that resistance and reluctance to change it. And so yeah, thank you for that. Now, I'm not very empathetic person, but I'm going to try very hard now to be better. Yeah, thank you. I've read the book and learned so much and I'm still learning even more. This is a fantastic interview. Thank you, guys. One of the things, speaking of, that I learned was that using color to differentiate isn't always helpful, which blew my mind because I am an extremely visual person, and I actually rely on color to learn. Like when I was studying at university, I would put my psychology studies in certain colors, so that I could close my eyes and picture like my big brainstorm thing, like with all the different colors on it, and then I'd remember the numbers and the words and the authors and things. And so that helps me to categorize and it's how I find books on my bookshelf. And I was ignorant of, obviously, the fact that that's a huge problem for people who are colorblind. So what are some of the things that those of us who are able bodied take for granted that you wish that we would change? Michele: Yeah, relying on color to convey information is probably one of those. Just the color is not enough, you should use something else. Let's do an easy example. So imagine that the style that you have on your website highlights the links only with the color. Let's also make sure the links are underlined, which is the standard, let's say link style, because otherwise, people might not be able to perceive the difference between the link and the plain text. The same when you are providing instructions on how to do something. Recently, I've seen a sign that was suggesting to use the red button. But what if I'm using my interface only on a scale of gray? I will not be able to perceive what is the red button, and I will not be able to distinguish between the other buttons. So again, it is not necessarily a hyper technical aspect, it is the ability to start understanding which are the difficulties. And these are difficulties that you might be able to perceive, not just on the web, but on the everyday life. So this is, I think, one of the nicest thing around accessibility, that when you start learning, and Sacha, you confirmed that before, right? When you start learning it on a field, then you naturally apply it to a number of different fields. And the use of colors is a classic one that you can find on books, guides, instructions, websites, on Facebook post. It is a very popular mistake. Sacha: I think it's so natural for so many of us to, you know, we go through the world with our own rose tinted spectacles on. We go through the world with our own experience. And so often we take that for granted that that's everybody's experience. And it's not. And that's why this is so important because none of us are perfect. We all have things to learn. And I think as long as we are open to being humble, and to putting our hands up and say, "Actually, yeah, I had no idea. I'm going to change that now." I think that's one of the magical things about your book is that you say throughout it that nobody's expecting you to do everything in this book immediately. You can do one little thing this month, another thing next month, you know. And I think that's what's so encouraging because I actually left the book very motivated to try and fix some of these things. Jeff: The thing to remember, and you kind of touched on it there, that we tell you, you don't have to do everything, but it's also a mindset of progress over perfection. It's one of the big things talked about among all the advocates in this space, because you can't do everything all at once. And especially for who we're talking to here, which is really creative entrepreneurs, probably little to no technical experience, working with little to no budget, you know, maybe if they're lucky, a PA who helps with this stuff. But to know you can choose to do nothing on your existing content and always do better going forward, those little things add up. You don't want this to feel like a crushing like, oh god, now I've got two thousand other things to go do. Baby steps, parse out what you're gonna do, what you think the most important thing is, and just do something. Yeah. Sacha: And like, speaking of doing something, I think one of the things that authors spend a lot of their marketing time on is social media. So what are some of the things that we can do to be more inclusive and accessible on social media? Jeff: Really think about that emoji use. I mean, I will tie back to that, because emojis is one of the places that I think most people, if they're going to abuse emojis, it's abuse on social. Put them at the end of the post, don't bury them in the middle of it, so that your message comes through. And that's really what I look at in every instance when I'm thinking about social. It's let's make sure the message you're giving actually comes through. Instagram stories and TikTok, when you can add your own text to those, make sure you're using text that's actually big enough to read. Those stories, you can't pinch and zoom and do all that stuff. And there's so many Instagrams, people type these big, long missives on their Instagram stories, and it's really teeny, tiny text, and I'm like, I have no idea. And if I am not reading it with my glasses on, it's like, yeah, you're gonna lower your interaction with that. Make it bigger text, more screens, whatever that takes to get that across. The same thing when you're doing caption fonts, like I love your caption fonts when you're doing your stories. It's good, big text. I think I could read that with my glasses off, perhaps, which is great. Think about how you're using images and what you're doing with them. Images of text are used a lot, and you know, they're catchy, like those graphics we talked about with all the arrows pointing to the books. But make sure that that message is coming out into the post itself. Because, you know, we talked about using alt text, which is great, but there are people with low vision, who aren't going to use the screen reader to get to the alt text. So for that book example, all of those little pop points that are running around the outside of the book, make that part of the post in a sentence format. You know, "this book features these things," so that it's equivalent information presented. That comes back to the perceivable principle that Michele mentioned. Different people perceive in different ways, so make sure the content is available in all those different perceivable ways. Sacha: So I got halfway there with that trope's post because I put the tropes in the caption, but then I put a tick emoji by each one. I was so close. Michele: You need to read the book again. Sacha: Clearly, I do. Okay, last sort of major question then. Talk to me about font. You've mentioned font, about having it large in captions, but also there are things that we should know about choosing font for our websites or for our books or social media where possible. Jeff: I would say this is less about books and book covers because that's going to the brand and the feel of the book, and that kind of thing. And the book cover itself is really art. And yes, there are certain things you could do, but you don't want to like take away from the feel of your cover for that. When you're promoting the book, you want the text around that art to be properly accessible and stuff. You can't really adjust the font on aspects of social. You've got some font choices on stories and areas like that. But if you're gonna look at font families, for example, like Tahoma, Times New Roman, Verdana, and to a large degree, Arial, Calibri, Helvetica, those are generally well accessible fonts because the things that you're looking for are easily distinguishable letters. So a font where a lowercase L and an uppercase I and the numeral one, don't all look the same. Because then you're gonna start having people having difficulty parsing the letters if they're visually interacting with them. And then, of course, it's a good font size. So you know, well 14 size font on websites and in emails and stuff. Think about are you using on your emails, for example, a mobile friendly template so that somebody doesn't have to pinch and zoom even if you're using a big font, because it's not reformatting in the mobile window well. And if you're doing tiny text, don't go too tiny. Even if you're doing like rules for something, somebody's trying to read that. So you know, be considered about that as well. Very thin fonts, things with big flourishes in them, be wary of those. Those will be much harder for people with cognitive disabilities, potentially, to parse and low vision to parse out what those are. Coming back to like images of text and that promo graphic, if you do have swirly stuff in there because it's part of the brand feel of the book, just make sure you're getting that message in the post and in the alt text so that it's all considerable. Two other things I'll throw out about fonts, and one of these ties back to color, is color contrast. So beyond the use of color that Michele mentioned, think about the color contrast and the ability to discern what's in the background versus the foreground. So if you're thinking about text, does the text pop enough off of the background color to be readable. And I'll send you for the show notes a link to a color contrast checker that's available, you just put in the hex codes for your foreground and your background, and it's gonna tell you if it passes color contrast. It nice little sliders on it so you can darken and lighten text to find the right balance to ensure that those visually interacting can see and discern the color appropriately and not have to like work too hard on it. The last thing I'll mention around text is the alignment of the text. Centering text, especially large blocks of text, we're not talking like headlines, but large chunks of text, very cognitively draining to read because your eye is always have to find where the start of the line is. Same thing with justification because there's inconsistent spacing between words. Left justify it so that I can follow, you know, not so much with the indents because indentations are expected, but you know, start left align copy so that it's just a straight line. It makes for the easiest readability. Sacha: Yeah, do you know I've always hated center justified text and I've never really know known why. And it is actually exhausting to read it. Yeah, that's so interesting. Thank you both so, so much because I think this is a really, really important topic. And I hope that listeners, even if they're only got to go and do one thing, please do go and take one action after listening to this podcast. Well, two actions. One, read the book, and then two, take a take a practical action. But this is The Rebel Author Podcast, so tell everyone about a time you unleashed your inner rebel. And I don't mind who goes first. Jeff: I will say that I prepared better this time than the first time that we did this because I know Will I found this question to be like, oh my god, what is this even mean? I have one for this though. And I challenge everybody after they read the book to start doing this kind of same thing. And it's gently educating people about accessibility. As you learn it, pass it on. Like, even before I wrote the book, every now and then I would talk to an author colleague, a podcaster colleague, about newsletters or things that I saw that just very clearly popped out to me because of this work that I do. Like maybe think about doing this thing different than this thing, to spread the word. And I'm even more kind of out there with it now. Whether it's a colleague, or a business that I that I work with. You know, I use maybe widgets and plugins on my websites to get to make certain things happen. I'll either go look for new ones, or be like, hey, this is bad, can you do something about this place? It's all about gently. It's not about aggressively coming out of the gate and be like, oh, my God, why aren't you doing this. It's like, you may not know this, but XYZ. And that way, accessibility becomes something that we all start to think about a little more. So it's a little rebellion and it takes a little courage to just know you're gonna go reach out to somebody go, can I just give you some unsolicited advice about this? But it's all about trying to make everything more inclusive. Sacha: Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. And the more welcoming we can be, the better our community becomes, and the more, what's the word, the more appreciated our readers feel. So I love that rebellion. Michele, what about you? You've got to have a rebellion, too. Michele: I do, I do. It might be considered close to Jeff's one, but the message I want to convey is that we live in a world that relies on accessory to use something that has been just purely designed. And we need to stop. The concept of an assistive technology, or even worse, an alternative, it needs to stop. So the fact that the product that you are designing, often we see the main actor as the designer, not the user, is what causes the majority of the accessibility issues. So we need to invest something that is not necessarily related to the technology only, but in the way we speak. And I include myself, I mean, this is a message that I send to myself as well. So to be more inclusive, but in a way that we think we will learn, which could be all the difficulties, all the possible different abilities of our audience, and we try to be more inclusive, but in a way that we don't just consider that if he's not able to use my website, for sure, she will have an accessory that will make her able to. Well, it's not always like that. We can design better, we can write better, we can produce better products to be available for a wider audience. Sacha: Yeah, I love that. And I think the best marketers who are authors keep the end user being the reader at the fore of their design of their books and their marketing campaigns. And you know, they're the ones who are the most effective at this. And so I think that's an amazing rebellion. Okay, tell everyone where they can find out more about you, your book, and anything else you would like to add? Jeff: Absolutely. So you can find all about Content for Everyone at contentforeveryone.info. Information where you can get the book, we're also going to be putting up routine blog posts there to talk about examples that we've seen, news that would be of interest to creatives. So we'll start to have you know that be kind of an ongoing resource to help share even more around the book. And Content for Everyone is available everywhere, eBook, paperback, large print paperback and audiobook. And you should find that anywhere you want to pick up a book, or pick up an audio, it should be there. Sacha: Are you narrating? Jeff: I am actually, yes. Sacha: I love it. I love it. Jeff: If you want more about me, JeffAdamsWrites.com for the fiction, and BigGayFictionPodcast.com for the podcast. Sacha: Excellent. Thank you very much. Okay, well, thank you so much for your time today, and of course a gigantic thank you to all of the show's listeners and all of the show's patrons. If you'd like to get early access to all of the episodes, you can do so by visiting patreon.com/sachablack. I'm Sacha Black, you are listening to Jeff Adams and Michele Lucchini, and this was The Rebel Author Podcast. Next week I am joined by one of my fav humans, Ines Johnson, and we are going to be talking about business, processes, efficiency, and basically how she is a fucking badass author. So join me next week for that. Don't forget to tune in and subscribe on your podcatcher. And when you have a moment, please leave a review.  

Founder and CEO of Z-JAK Technologies, Jeff Chandler joins the show to share his over thirty- five years of experience as a developer, systems architect, and consultant. Jeff is also an expert in cybersecurity, serving previously as Chief Technology Officer for Jefferson National Financial. Jeff was part of the startup team that built that company and, most recently, Jeff authored the book Hacked. Today, Jeff talks all about cybersecurity, ransomware and best practices small businesses can implement to make themselves a ‘hard target.' Jeff shares his own entrepreneurial journey, including advice he would give to other aspiring founders.Episode SponsorChampion Leadership Group – https://championleadership.com/ Small Fish, Big Pond – https://smallfishbigpond.com/ Use the promo code ‘SaaSFuel'Key Takeaways01:09 – Jeff introduces today's guest, Jeff Chandler, who joins the show to discuss his background in technology, cybersecurity and consulting14:37 – Cybersecurity, ransomware and how small businesses can combat these risks16:46 – Best practices for making yourself a ‘hard target'21:32 – Jeff shares his thoughts on the future of technology and how it will impact businesses23:30 – The evolution of the CTO role26:45 – Advice Jeff would give to his younger self32:40 – Jeff talks about the work he's doing at Z-JAK Technologies34:03 – Jeff thanks Jeff Chandler for joining the show and lets listeners know where to learn more about Z-JAK TechnologiesTweetable Quotes“So, as they're filling out the application and answering those questions about their health history and so on, in the background we're making decisions in real time and tracking it as we go. And then we had an underwriter who we took all of her knowledge that we could, fed it into our rudimentary AI engine to make a decision. And this AI engine would even pull credit reports or motor vehicle report. If you weren't a great driver, maybe you weren't a great risk for buying life insurance.” (07:20) (Jeff)“We found that building a brand new insurance company from scratch is really, really hard and takes a lot of money. We were constantly out fundraising and getting new capital investment. So, what we did was we ended up buying another insurance carrier.” (10:10) (Jeff)“It's not that they're particularly targeting small businesses; they're targeting everybody. But if a small business doesn't do some of the best practices, like changing the password on a firewall or running the most current version of antivirus, those are the ones who pop out on these scans that they do.” (15:58) (Jeff)“Ninety something percent of all the hacks happen because someone clicked a link they shouldn't have. So, what can we do to help them recognize those links and what doesn't look good.” (17:31) (Jeff)“Again, it's looking at what you can do with what you have. So, it's taking the tools that you have and using those most effectively to grow your business.” (26:24) (Jeff)“Done is better than perfect. Get something out there. Get some feedback and talk to people and see what you can do better. Just put it out there and take some chances.” (31:49) (Jeff)Guest ResourcesJeff's LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffkmains/ Jeff's...

About JeffJeff Smith has been in the technology industry for over 20 years, oscillating between management and individual contributor. Jeff currently serves as the Director of Production Operations for Basis Technologies (formerly Centro), an advertising software company headquartered in Chicago, Illinois. Before that he served as the Manager of Site Reliability Engineering at Grubhub.Jeff is passionate about DevOps transformations in organizations large and small, with a particular interest in the psychological aspects of problems in companies. He lives in Chicago with his wife Stephanie and their two kids Ella and Xander.Jeff is also the author of Operations Anti-Patterns, DevOps Solutions with Manning publishing. (https://www.manning.com/books/operations-anti-patterns-devops-solutions) Links Referenced: Basis Technologies: https://basis.net/ Operations Anti-Patterns: https://attainabledevops.com/book Personal Site: https://attainabledevops.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffery-smith-devops/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/DarkAndNerdy Medium: https://medium.com/@jefferysmith duckbillgroup.com: https://duckbillgroup.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Fortinet. Fortinet's partnership with AWS is a better-together combination that ensures your workloads on AWS are protected by best-in-class security solutions powered by comprehensive threat intelligence and more than 20 years of cybersecurity experience. Integrations with key AWS services simplify security management, ensure full visibility across environments, and provide broad protection across your workloads and applications. Visit them at AWS re:Inforce to see the latest trends in cybersecurity on July 25-26 at the Boston Convention Center. Just go over to the Fortinet booth and tell them Corey Quinn sent you and watch for the flinch. My thanks again to my friends at Fortinet.Corey: Let's face it, on-call firefighting at 2am is stressful! So there's good news and there's bad news. The bad news is that you probably can't prevent incidents from happening, but the good news is that incident.io makes incidents less stressful and a lot more valuable. incident.io is a Slack-native incident management platform that allows you to automate incident processes, focus on fixing the issues and learn from incident insights to improve site reliability and fix your vulnerabilities. Try incident.io, recover faster and sleep more.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. One of the fun things about doing this show for long enough is that you eventually get to catch up with people and follow up on previous conversations that you've had. Many years ago—which sounds like I'm being sarcastic, but is increasingly actually true—Jeff Smith was on the show talking about a book that was about to release. Well, time has passed and things have changed. And Jeff Smith is back once again. He's the Director of Product Operations at Basis Technologies, and the author of DevOps Anti-Patterns? Or what was the actual title of the book it was—Jeff: Operations Anti-Patterns.Corey: I got hung up in the anti-patterns part because it's amazing. I love the title.Jeff: Yeah, Operations Anti-Patterns, DevOps Solutions.Corey: Got you. Usually in my experience, alway been operations anti-patterns, and here I am to make them worse, probably by doing something like using DNS as a database or some godforsaken thing. But you were talking about the book aspirationally a few years ago, and now it's published and it has been sent out to the world. And it went well enough that they translated it to Japanese, I believe, and it has seen significant uptick. What was your experience of it? How did it go?Jeff: You know, it was a great experience. This is definitely the first book that I've written. And the Manning process was extremely smooth. You know, they sort of hold your hand through the entire process. But even after launch, just getting feedback from readers and hearing how it resonated with folks was extremely powerful.I was surprised to find out that they turned it into an audiobook as well. So, everyone reaches out and says, “Did you read the audiobook? I was going to buy it, but I wasn't sure.” I was like, “No, unfortunately, I don't read it.” But you know, still cool to have it out there.Corey: My theory has been for a while now that no one wants to actually write a book; they want to have written a book. Now that you're on the other side, how accurate is that? Are you in a position of, “Wow, sure glad that's done?” Or are you, “That was fun. Let's do it again because I like being sad all the time.” I mean, you do work Kubernetes for God's sake. I mean, there's a bit of masochism inherent to all of us in this space.Jeff: Yeah. Kubernetes makes me cry a little bit more than the writing process. But it's one of the things when you look back on it, you're like, “Wow, that was fun,” but not in the heat of the moment, right? So, I totally agree with the sentiment that people want to have written a book but not actually gone through the process. And that's evident by the fact that how many people try to start a book on their own without a publisher behind them, and they end up writing it for 15 years. The process is pretty grueling. The feedback is intense at first, but you start to get into a groove and you—I could see, you know, in a little while wanting to write another book. So, I can see the appeal.Corey: And the last time you were on the show, I didn't really bother to go in a particular topical direction because, what's the point? It didn't really seem like it was a top-of-mind issue to really bring up because what's it matter; it's a small percentage of the workforce. Now I feel like talking about remote work is suddenly taking on a bit of a different sheen than it was before the dark times arrived. Where do you land on the broad spectrum of opinions around the idea of remote work, given that you have specialized in anti-patterns, and well, as sarcastic as I am, I tend to look at almost every place I've ever worked is expressing different anti-patterns from time to time. So, where do you land on the topic?Jeff: So, it's funny, I started as a staunch office supporter, right? I like being in the office. I like collaborating in person; I thought we were way more productive. Since the pandemic, all of us are forced into remote work, I've hired almost half of my team now as remote. And I am somewhat of a convert, but I'm not on the bandwagon of remote work is just as good or is better as in person work.I've firmly landed in the camp of remote work is good. It's got its shortcomings, but it's worth the trade off. And I think acknowledging what those trade-offs are important to keeping the team afloat. We just recently had a conversation with the team where we were discussing, like, you know, there's definitely been a drop in productivity over the past six months to a year. And in that conversation, a lot of the things that came up were things that are different remote that were better in person, right, Slack etiquette—which is something, you know, I could talk a little bit about as well—but, you know, Slack etiquette in terms of getting feedback quickly, just the sort of camaraderie and the lack of building that camaraderie with new team members as they come on board and not having those rituals to replace the in-person rituals. But through all that, oddly enough, no one suggested going back into the office. [laugh].Corey: For some strange reason, yeah. I need to be careful what I say here, I want to disclaim the position that I'm in. There is a power imbalance and nothing I say is going to be able to necessarily address that because I own the company and if my team members are listening to this, they're going to read a lot into what I say that I might not necessarily intend. But The Duckbill Group, since its founding, has been a fully distributed company. My business partner lives in a different state than I do so there's never been the crappy version of remote, which is, well, we're all going to be in the same city, except for Theodore. Theodore is going to be timezones away and then wonder why he doesn't get to participate in some of the conversations where the real decisions get made.Like that's crappy. I don't like that striated approach to things. We don't have many people who are co-located in any real sense, nor have we for the majority of the company's life. But there are times when I am able to work on a project in a room with one of my colleagues, and things go a lot more smoothly. As much as we want to pretend that video is the same, it quite simply isn't.It is a somewhat poor substitute for the very high bandwidth of a face-to-face interaction. And yes, I understand this is also a somewhat neurotypical perspective, let's be clear with that as well, and it's not for everyone. But I think that for the base case, a lot of the remote work advocates are not being fully, I guess, honest with themselves about some of the shortcomings remote has. That is where I've mostly landed on this. Does that generally land with where you are?Jeff: Yeah, that's exactly where I'm at. I completely agree. And when we take work out of the equation, I think the shortcomings lay themselves bare, right? Like I was having a conversation with a friend and we were like, well, if you had a major breakup, right, I would never be like, “Oh, man. Grab a beer and hop on Zoom,” right? [laugh]. “Let's talk it out.”No, you're like, hey, let's get in person and let's talk, right? We can do all of that conversation over Zoom, but the magic of being in person and having that personal connection, you know, can't be replaced. So, you know, if it's not going to work, commiserating over beers, right? I can't imagine it's going to work, diagramming some complex workflows and trying to come to an answer or a solution on that. So again, not to say that, you know, remote work is not valuable, it's just different.And I think organizations are really going to have to figure out, like, okay, if I want to entice people back into the office, what are the things that I need to do to make this realistic? We've opened the floodgates on remote hiring, right, so now it's like, okay, everyone's janky office setup needs to get fixed, right? So, I can't have a scenario where it's like, “Oh, just point your laptop at the whiteboard, right?” [laugh]. Like that can't exist, we have to have office spaces that are first-class citizens for our remote counterparts as well.Corey: Right because otherwise, the alternative is, “Great, I expect you to take the home that you pay for and turn it into an area fit for office use. Of course, we're not going to compensate you for that, despite the fact that, let's be realistic, rent is often larger than the AWS bill.” Which I know, gasp, I'm as shocked as anyone affected by that, but it's true. “But oh, you want to work from home? Great. That just means you can work more hours.”I am not of the school of thought where I consider time in the office to be an indicator of anything meaningful. I care if the work gets done and at small-scale, this works. Let me also be clear, we're an 11-person company. A lot of what I'm talking about simply will not scale to companies that are orders of magnitude larger than this. And from where I sit, that's okay. It doesn't need to.Jeff: Right. And I think a lot of the things that you talk about will scale, right? Because in most scenarios, you're not scaling it organizationally so much as you are with a handful of teams, right? Because when I think about all the different teams I interact with, I never really interact with the organization as a whole, I interact with my little neighborhood in the organization. So, it is definitely something that scales.But again, when it comes to companies, like, enticing people back into the office, now that I'm talking about working from home five days a week, I've invested in my home setup. I've got the monitor I want, I've got the chair that I want, I've got the mouse and keyboard that I want. So, you're going to bring me back to the office so I can have some standard Dell keyboard and mouse with some janky, you know—maybe—21-inch monitor or something like that, right? Like, you really have to decide, like, okay, we're going to make the office a destination, we're going to make it where people want to go there where it's not just even about the collaboration aspect, but people can still work and be effective.And on top of that, I think how we look at what the office delivers is going to change, right? Because now when I go to the office now, I do very little work. It's connections, right? It's like, you know, “Oh, I haven't seen you in forever. Let's catch up.” And a lot of that stuff is valuable. You know, there's these hallway conversations that exist that just weren't happening previously because how do I accidentally bump into you on Slack? [laugh]. Right, it has to be much more it of a—Corey: Right. It takes some contrivance to wind up making that happen. I remember back in the days of working in offices, I remember here in San Francisco where we had unlimited sick time and unlimited PTO, I would often fake a sick day, but just stay home and get work done. Because I knew if I was in the office, I'd be constantly subjected to drive-bys the entire time of just drive-by requests, people stopping by to ask, “Oh, can you just help me with this one thing,” that completely derails my train of thought. Then at the end of the day, they'd tell me, “You seem distractible and you didn't get a lot of work done.”It's, “Well, no kidding. Of course not. Are you surprised?” And one of the nice things about starting your own company—because there are a lot of downsides, let me be very clear—one of the nice things is you get to decide how you want to work. And that was a study in, first, amazement, and then frustration.It was, “All right, I just landed a big customer. I'm off to the races and going to take this seriously for a good six to twelve months. Great sky's the limit, I'm going to do up my home office.” And then you see how little money it takes to have a nice chair, a good standing desk, a monitor that makes sense and you remember fighting tooth-and-nail for nothing that even approached this quality at companies and they acted like it was going to cost them 20-grand. And here, it's two grand at most, when I decorated this place the first time.And it was… “What the hell?” Like, it feels like the scales fall away from your eyes, and you start seeing things that you didn't realize were a thing. Now I worry that five years in, there's no way in the world I'm ever fit to be an employee again, so this is probably the last job I'll ever have. Just because I've basically made myself completely unemployable across six different axes.Jeff: [laugh]. And I think one of the things when it comes to, like, furniture, keyboard, stuff like that, I feel like part of it was just, like, this sort of enforced conformity, right, that the office provided us the ability to do. We can make sure everyone's got the same monitor, the same keyboard that way, when it breaks, we can replace it easily. In a lot of organizations that I've been in, you know, that sort of like, you know, even if it was the same amount or ordering a custom keyboard was a big exception process, right? Like, “Oh, we've got to do a whole thing.” And it's just like, “Well, it doesn't have to be that complicated.”And like you said, it doesn't cost much to allow someone to get the tools that they want and prefer and they're going to be more productive with. But to your point really quickly about work in the office, until the pandemic, I personally didn't recognize how difficult it actually was to get work done in the office. I don't think I appreciated it. And now that I'm remote, I'm like, wow, it is so much easier for me to close this door, put my headphones on, mute Slack and go heads down. You know, the only drive-by I've got is my wife wondering if I want to go for a walk, and that's usually a text message that I can ignore and come back to later.Corey: The thing that just continues to be strange for me and breaks in some of the weirdest ways has just been the growing awareness of how much of office life is unnecessary and ridiculous. When you're in the office every day, you have to find a way to make it work and be productive and you have this passive-aggressive story of this open office, it's for collaboration purposes. Yeah, I can definitively say that is not true. I had a boss who once told me that there was such benefits to working in an open plan office that if magically it were less expensive to give people individual offices, he would spare the extra expense for open plan. That was the day I learned he would lie to me while looking me in the eye. Because of course you wouldn't.And it's for collaboration. Yeah, it means two loud people—often me—are collaborating and everyone else wears noise-canceling headphones trying desperately to get work done, coming in early, hours before everyone else to get things done before people show up and distracted me. What the hell kind of day-to-day work environment is that?Jeff: What's interesting about that, though, is those same distractions are the things that get cited as being missed from the perspective of the person doing the distracting. So, everyone universally hates that sort of drive-by distractions, but everyone sort of universally misses the ability to say like, “Hey, can I just pull on your ear for a second and get your feedback on this?” Or, “Can we just walk through this really quickly?” That's the thing that people miss, and I don't think that they ever connect it to the idea that if you're not the interruptee, you're the interruptor, [laugh] and what that might do to someone else's productivity. So, you would think something like Slack would help with that, but in reality, what ends up happening is if you don't have proper Slack etiquette, there's a lot of signals that go out that get misconstrued, misinterpreted, internalized, and then it ends up impacting morale.Corey: And that's the most painful part of a lot of that too. Is that yeah, I want to go ahead and spend some time doing some nonsense—as one does; imagine that—and I know that if I'm going to go into an office or meet up with my colleagues, okay, that afternoon or that day, yeah, I'm planning that I'm probably not going to get a whole lot of deep coding done. Okay, great. But when that becomes 40 hours a week, well, that's a challenge. I feel like being full remote doesn't work out, but also being in the office 40 hours a week also feels a little sadistic, more than almost anything else.I don't know what the future looks like and I am privileged enough that I don't have to because we have been full remote the entire time. But what we don't spend on office space we spend on plane tickets back and forth so people can have meetings. In the before times, we were very good about that. Now it's, we're hesitant to do it just because it's we don't want people traveling before the feel that it's safe to do so. We've also learned, for example, when dealing with our clients, that we can get an awful lot done without being on site with them and be extraordinarily effective.It was always weird have traveled to some faraway city to meet with the client, and then you're on a Zoom call from their office with the rest of the team. It's… I could have done this from my living room.Jeff: Yeah. I find those sorts of hybrid meetings are often worse than if we were all just remote, right? It's just so much easier because now it's like, all right, three of us are going to crowd around one person's laptop, and then all of the things that we want to do to take advantage of being in person are excluding the people that are remote, so you got to do this careful dance. The way we've been sort of tackling it so far—and we're still experimenting—is we're not requiring anyone to come back into the office, but some people find it useful to go to the office as a change of scenery, to sort of, like break things up from their typical routine, and they like the break and the change. But it's something that they do sort of ad hoc.So, we've got a small group that meets, like, every Thursday, just as a day to sort of go into the office and switch things up. I think the idea of saying everyone has to come into the office two or three days a week is probably broken when there's no purpose behind it. So, my wife technically should go into the office twice a week, but her entire team is in Europe. [laugh]. So, what point does that make other than I am a body in a chair? So, I think companies are going to have to get flexible with this sort of hybrid environment.But then it makes you wonder, like, is it worth the office space and how many people are actually taking advantage of it when it's not mandated? We find that our office time centers around some event, right? And that event might be someone in town that's typically remote. That might be a particular project that we're working on where we want to get ideas and collaborate and have a workshop. But the idea of just, like, you know, we're going to systematically require people to be in the office x many days, I don't see that in our future.Corey: No, and I hope you're right. But it also feels like a lot of folks are also doing some weird things around the idea of remote such as, “Oh, we're full remote but we're going to pay you based upon where you happen to be sitting geographically.” And we find that the way that we've done this—and again, I'm not saying there's a right answer for everyone—but we wind up paying what the value of the work is for us. In many cases, that means that we would be hard-pressed to hire someone in the Bay Area, for example. On the other hand, it means that when we hire people who are in places with relatively low cost of living, they feel like they've just hit the lottery, on some level.And yeah, some of them, I guess it does sort of cause a weird imbalance if you're a large Amazon-scale company where you want to start not disrupting local economies. We're not hiring that many people, I promise. So, there's this idea of figuring out how that works out. And then where does the headquarters live? And well, what state laws do we wind up following on what we're doing? Just seems odd.Jeff: Yeah. So, you know, one thing I wanted to comment on that you'd mentioned earlier, too, was the weird things that people are doing, and organizations are doing with this, sort of, remote work thing, especially the geographic base pay. And you know, a lot of it is, how can we manipulate the situation to better us in a way that sounds good on paper, right? So, it sounds perfectly reasonable. Like, oh, you live in New York, I'm going to pay you in New York rates, right?But, like, you live in Des Moines, so I'm going to pay you Des Moines rates. And on the surface, when you just go you're like, oh, yeah, that makes sense, but then you think about it, you're like, “Wait, why does that matter?” Right? And then, like, how do I, as a manager, you know, level that across my employees, right? It's like, “Oh, so and so is getting paid 30 grand less. Oh, but they live in a cheaper area, right?” I don't know what your personal situation is, and how much that actually resonates or matters.Corey: Does the value that they provide to your company materially change based upon where they happen to be sitting that week?Jeff: Right, exactly. But it's a good story that you can tell, it sounds fair at first examination. But then when you start to scratch the surface, you're like, “Wait a second, this is BS.” So, that's one thing.Corey: It's like tipping on some level. If you can't afford the tip, you can't afford to eat out. Same story here. If you can't afford to compensate people the value that they're worth, you can't afford to employ people. And figure that out before you wind up disappointing people and possibly becoming today's Twitter main character.Jeff: Right. And then the state law thing is interesting. You know, when you see states like California adopting laws similar to, like, GDPR. And it's like, do you have to start planning for the most stringent possibility across every hire just to be safe and to avoid having to have this sort of patchwork of rules and policies based on where someone lives? You might say like, “Okay, Delaware has the most stringent employer law, so we're going to apply Delaware's laws across the board.” So, it'll be interesting to see how that sort of plays out in the long run. Luckily, that's not a problem I have to solve, but it'll be interesting to see how it shakes out.Corey: It is something we had to solve. We have an HR consultancy that helps out with a lot of these things, but the short answer is that we make sure that we obey with local laws, but the way that we operate is as if everyone were a San Francisco employee because that is—so far—the locale that, one, I live here, but also of every jurisdiction we've looked at in the United States, it tends to have the most advantageous to the employee restrictions and requirements. Like one thing we do is kind of ridiculous—and we have to do for me and one other person, but almost no one else, but we do it for everyone—is we have to provide stipends every month for electricity, for cellphone usage, for internet. They have to be broken out for each one of those categories, so we do 20 bucks a month for each of those. It adds up to 100 bucks, as I recall, and we call it good. And employees say, “Okay. Do we just send you receipts? Please don't.”I don't want to look at your cell phone bill. It's not my business. I don't want to know. We're doing this to comply with the law. I mean, if it were up to me, it would be this is ridiculous. Can we just give everyone $100 a month raise and call it good? Nope. The forms must be obeyed. So, all right.We do the same thing with PTO accrual. If you've acquired time off and you leave the company, we pay it out. Not every state requires that. But paying for cell phone access and internet access as well, is something Amazon is currently facing a class action about because they didn't do that for a number of their California employees. And even talking to Amazonians, like, “Well, they did, but you had to jump through a bunch of hoops.”We have the apparatus administratively to handle that in a way that employees don't. Why on earth would we make them do it unless we didn't want to pay them? Oh, I think I figured out this sneaky, sneaky plan. I'm not here to build a business by exploiting people. If that's the only way to succeed, and the business doesn't deserve to exist. That's my hot take of the day on that topic.Jeff: No, I totally agree. And what's interesting is these insidious costs that sneak up that employees tend to discount, like, one thing I always talk about with my team is all that time you're thinking about a problem at work, right, like when you're in the shower, when you're at dinner, when you're talking it over with your spouse, right? That's work. That's work. And it's work that you're doing on your time.But we don't account for it that way because we're not typing; we're not writing code. But, like, think about how much more effective as people, as employees, we would be if we had time dedicated to just sit and think, right? If I could just sit and think about a problem without needing to type but just critically think about it. But then it's like, well, what does that look like in the office, right? If I'm just sitting there in my chair like this, it doesn't look like I'm doing anything.But that's so important to be able to, like, break down and digest some of the complex problems that we're dealing with. And we just sort of write it off, right? So, I'm like, you know, you got to think about how that bleeds into your personal time and take that into account. So yeah, maybe you leave three hours early today, but I guarantee you, you're going to spend three hours throughout the week thinking about work. It's the same thing with these cellphone costs that you're talking about, right? “Oh, I've got a cell phone anyways; I've got internet anyways.” But still, that's something that you're contributing to the business that they're not on the hook for, so it seems fair that you get compensated for that.Corey: I just think about that stuff all the time from that perspective, and now that I you know, own the place, it's one of those which pocket of mine does it come out of? But I hold myself to a far higher standard about that stuff than I do the staff, where it's, for example, I could theoretically justify paying my internet bill here because we have business-class internet and an insane WiFi system because of all of the ridiculous video production I do. Now. It's like, like, if anyone else on the team was doing this, yes, I will insist we pay it, but for me, it just it feels a little close to the edge. So, it's one of those areas where I'm very conservative around things like that.The thing that also continues to just vex me, on some level, is this idea that time in a seat is somehow considered work. I'll never forget one of the last jobs I had before I started this place. My boss walked past me and saw that I was on Reddit. And, “Is that really the best use of your time right now?” May I use the bathroom when I'm done with this, sir?Yeah, of course it is. It sounds ridiculous, but one of the most valuable things I can do for The Duckbill Group now is go on the internet and start shit posting on Twitter, which sounds ridiculous, but it's also true. There's a brand awareness story there, on some level. And that's just wild to me. It's weird, we start treating people like adults, they start behaving that way. And if you start micromanaging them, they live up or down to the expectations you tend to hold. I'm a big believer in if I have to micromanage someone, I should just do the job myself.Jeff: Yeah. The Reddit story makes me think of, like, how few organizations have systematic ways of getting vital information. So, the first thing I think about is, like, security and security vulnerabilities, right? So, how does Basis Technologies, as an organization, know about these things? Right now, it's like, well, my team knows because we're plugged into Reddit and Twitter, right, but if we were gone Basis, right, may not necessarily get that information.So, that's something we're trying to correct, but it just sort of highlights the importance of freedom for these employees, right? Because yeah, I'm on Reddit, but I'm on /r/sysadmin. I'm on /r/AWS, right, I'm on /r/Atlassian. Now I'm finding out about this zero-day vulnerability and it's like, “Oh, guys, we got to act. I just heard about this thing.” And people are like, “Oh, where did this come from?” And it's like it came from my network, right? And my network—Corey: Mm-hm.Jeff: Is on Twitter, LinkedIn, Reddit. So, the idea that someone browsing the internet on any site, really, is somehow not a productive use of their time, you better be ready to itemize exactly what that means and what that looks like. “Oh, you can do this on Reddit but you can't do that on Reddit.”Corey: I have no boss now, I have no oversight, but somehow I still show up with a work ethic and get things done.Jeff: Right. [laugh].Corey: Wow, I guess I didn't need someone over my shoulder the whole time. Who knew?Jeff: Right. That's all that matters, right? And if you do it in 30 hours or 40 hours, that doesn't really matter to me, you know? You want to do it at night because you're more productive there, right, like, let's figure out a way to make that happen. And remote work is actually empowering us ways to really retain people that wasn't possible before I had an employee that was like, you know, I really want to travel. I'm like, “Dude, go to Europe. Work from Europe. Just do it. Work from Europe,” right? We've got senior leaders on the C-suite that are doing it. One of the chief—Corey: I'm told they have the internet, even there. Imagine that?Jeff: Yeah. [laugh]. So, our chief program officer, she was in Greece for four weeks. And it worked. It worked great. They had a process. You know, she would spent one week on and then one week off on vacation. But you know, she was able to have this incredible, long experience, and still deliver. And it's like, you know, we can use that as a model to say, like—Corey: And somehow the work got done. Wow, she must be amazing. No, that's the baseline expectation that people can be self-managing in that respect.Jeff: Right.Corey: They aren't toddlers.Jeff: So, if she can do that, I'm sure you can figure out how to code in China or wherever you want to visit. So, it's a great way to stay ahead of some of these companies that have a bit more lethargic policies around that stuff, where it's like, you know, all right, I'm not getting that insane salary, but guess what, I'm going to spend three weeks in New Zealand hanging out and not using any time off or anything like that, and you know, being able to enjoy life. I wish this pandemic had happened pre-kids because—Corey: Yeah. [laugh].Jeff: —you know, we would really take advantage of this.Corey: You and me both. It would have very different experience.Jeff: Yeah. [laugh]. Absolutely, right? But with kids in school, and all that stuff, we've been tethered down. But man, I you know, I want to encourage the young people or the single people on my team to just, like, hey, really, really embrace this time and take advantage of it.Corey: I come bearing ill tidings. Developers are responsible for more than ever these days. Not just the code that they write, but also the containers and the cloud infrastructure that their apps run on. Because serverless means it's still somebody's problem. And a big part of that responsibility is app security from code to cloud. And that's where our friend Snyk comes in. Snyk is a frictionless security platform that meets developers where they are - Finding and fixing vulnerabilities right from the CLI, IDEs, Repos, and Pipelines. Snyk integrates seamlessly with AWS offerings like code pipeline, EKS, ECR, and more! As well as things you're actually likely to be using. Deploy on AWS, secure with Snyk. Learn more at Snyk.co/scream That's S-N-Y-K.co/screamCorey: One last topic I want to get into before we call it an episode is, I admit, I read an awful lot of books, it's a guilty pleasure. And it's easy to fall into the trap, especially when you know the author, of assuming that snapshot of their state of mind at a very fixed point in time is somehow who they are, like a fly frozen in amber, and it's never true. So, my question for you is, quite simply, what have you learned since your book came out?Jeff: Oh, man, great question. So, when I was writing the book, I was really nervous about if my audience was as big as I thought it was, the people that I was targeting with the book.Corey: Okay, that keeps me up at night, too. I have no argument there.Jeff: Yeah. You know what I mean?Corey: Please, continue.Jeff: I'm surrounded, you know, by—Corey: Is anyone actually listening to this? Yeah.Jeff: Right. [laugh]. So, after the book got finished and it got published, I would get tons of feedback from people that so thoroughly enjoyed the book, they would say things like, you know, “It feels like you were in our office like a fly on the wall.” And that was exciting, one, because I felt like these were experiences that sort of resonated, but, two, it sort of proved this thesis that sometimes you don't have to do something revolutionary to be a positive contribution to other people, right? So, like, when I lay out the tips and things that I do in the book, it's nothing earth-shattering that I expect Google to adopt. Like, oh, my God, this is the most unique view ever.But being able to talk to an audience in a way that resonates with them, that connects with them, that shows that I understand their problem and have been there, it was really humbling and enlightening to just see that there are people out there that they're not on the bleeding edge, but they just need someone to talk to them in a language that they understand and resonate with. So, I think the biggest thing that I learned was this idea that your voice is important, your voice matters, and how you tell your story may be the difference between someone understanding a concept and someone not understanding a concept. So, there's always an audience for you out there as you're writing, whether it be your blog post, the videos that you produce, the podcasts that you make, somewhere there's someone that needs to hear what you have to say, and the unique way that you can say it. So, that was extremely powerful.Corey: Part of the challenge that I found is when I start talking to other people, back in the before times, trying to push them into conference talks and these days, write blog posts, the biggest objection I get sometimes is, “Well, I don't have anything worth saying.” That is provably not true. One of my favorite parts about writing Last Week in AWS is as I troll the internet looking for topics about AWS that I find interesting, I keep coming across people who are very involved in one area or another of this ecosystem and have stories they want to tell. And I love, “Hey, would you like to write a guest post for Last Week in AWS?” It's always invite only and every single one of them has been paid because people die of exposure and I'm not about that exploitation lifestyle.A couple have said, “Oh, I can't accept payment for a variety of reasons.” Great. Pick a charity that you would like it to go to instead because we do not accept volunteer work, we are a for-profit entity. That is the way it works here. And that has been just one of the absolute favorite parts about what I do just because you get to sort of discover new voices.And what I find really neat is that for a lot of these folks, this is their start to writing and telling the story, but they don't stop there, they start telling their story in other areas, too. It leads to interesting career opportunities for them, it leads to interesting exposure that they wouldn't have necessarily had—again, not that they're getting paid in exposure, but the fact that they are able to be exposed to different methodologies, different ways of thinking—I love that. It's one of my favorite parts about doing what I do. And it seems to scale a hell of a lot better than me sitting down with someone for two hours to help them build a CFP that they wind up not getting accepted or whatnot.Jeff: Right. It's a great opportunity that you provide folks, too, because of, like, an instant audience, I think that's one of the things that has made Medium so successful as, like, a blogging platform is, you know, everyone wants to go out and build their own WordPress site and launch it, but then it like, you write your blog post and it's crickets. So, the ability for you to, you know, use your platform to also expose those voices is great and extremely powerful. But you're right, once they do it, it lights a fire in a way that is admirable to watch. I have a person that I'm mentoring and that was my biggest piece of advice I can give. It was like, you know, write. Just write.It's the one thing that you can do without anyone else. And you can reinforce your own knowledge of a thing. If you just say, you know, I'm going to teach this thing that I just learned, just the writing process helps you solidify, like, okay, I know this stuff. I'm demonstrating that I know it and then four years from now, when you're applying for a job, someone's like, “Oh, I found your blog post and I see that you actually do know how to set up a Kubernetes cluster,” or whatever. It's just extremely great and it—Corey: It's always fun. You're googling for how to do something and you find something you wrote five years ago.Jeff: Right, yeah. [laugh]. And it's like code where you're like, “Oh, man, I would do that so much differently now.”Corey: Since we last spoke, one of the things I've been doing is I have been on the hook to write between a one to two-thousand-word blog post every week, and I've done that like clockwork, for about a year-and-a-half now. And I was no slouch at storytelling before I started doing that. I've given a few hundred conference talks in the before times. And I do obviously long Twitter threads in the past and I write reports a lot. But forcing me to go through that process every week and then sit with an editor and go ahead and get it improved, has made me a far better writer, it's made me a better storyteller, I am far better at articulating my point of view.It is absolutely just unlocking a host of benefits that I would have thought I was, oh, I passed all this. I'm already good at these things. And I was, but I'm better now. I think that writing is one of those things that people need to do a lot more of.Jeff: Absolutely. And it's funny that you mentioned that because I just recently, back in April, started to do the same thing I said, I'm going to write a blog post every week, right? I'm going to get three or four in the can, so that if life comes up and I miss a beat, right, I'm not actually missing the production schedule, so I have a steady—and you're right. Even after writing a book, I'm still learning stuff through the writing process, articulating my point of view.It's just something that carries over, and it carries over into the workforce, too. Like, if you've ever read a bad piece of documentation, right, that comes from—Corey: No.Jeff: Right? [laugh]. That comes from an inability to write. Like, you know, you end up asking these questions like who's the audience for this? What is ‘it' in this sentence? [laugh].Corey: Part of it too, is that people writing these things are so close to the problem themselves that the fact that, “Well, I'm not an expert in this.” That's why you should write about it. Talk about your experience. You're afraid everyone's going to say, “Oh, you're a fool. You didn't understand how this works.”Yeah, my lived experiences instead—and admittedly, I have the winds of privilege of my back on this—but it's also yeah, I didn't understand that either. It turns out that you're never the only person who has trouble with a concept. And by calling it out, you're normalizing it and doing a tremendous service for others in your shoes.Jeff: Especially when you're not an expert because I wrote some documentation about the SSL process and it didn't occur to me that these people don't use the AWS command line, right? Like, you know, in our organization, we sort of mask that from them through a bunch of in-house automation. Now we're starting to expose it to them and simple things like oh, you need to preface the AWS command with a profile name. So, then when we're going through the setup, we're like, “Oh. What if they already have an existing profile, right?” Like, we don't want to clobber that.SSo, it just changed the way you write the documentation. But like, that's not something that initially came to mind for me. It wasn't until someone went through the docs, and they're like, “Uh, this is blowing up in a weird way.” And I was like, “Oh, right. You know, like, I need to also teach you about profile management.”Corey: Also, everyone has a slightly different workflow for the way they interact with AWS accounts, and their shell prompts, and the way they set up local dev environments.Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. So, not being an expert on a thing is key because you're coming to it with virgin eyes, right, and you're able to look at it from a fresh perspective.Corey: So, much documentation out there is always coming from the perspective of someone who is intimately familiar with the problem space. Some of the more interesting episodes that I have, from a challenge perspective, are people who are deep technologists in a particular area and they love they fallen in love with the thing that they are building. Great. Can you explain it to the rest of us mere mortals so that we can actually we can share your excitement on this? And it's very hard to get them to come down to a level where it's coherent to folks who haven't spent years thinking deeply about that particular problem space.Jeff: Man, the number one culprit for that is, like, the AWS blogs where they have, like, a how-to article. You follow that thing and you're like, “None of this is working.” [laugh]. Right? And then you realize, oh, they made an assumption that I knew this, but I didn't right?So, it's like, you know, I didn't realize this was supposed to be, like, a handwritten JSON document just jammed into the value field. Because I didn't know that, I'm not pulling those values out as JSON. I'm expecting that just to be, like, a straight string value. And that has happened more and more times on the AWS blog than I can count. [laugh].Corey: Oh, yeah, very often. And then there's other problems, too. “Oh, yeah. Set up your IAM permissions properly.” That's left as an exercise for the reader. And then you wonder why everything's full of stars. Okay.Jeff: Right. Yep, exactly, exactly.Corey: Ugh. It's so great to catch up with you and see what you've been working on. If people want to learn more, where's the best place to find you?Jeff: So, the best place is probably my website, attainabledevops.com. That's a place where you can find me on all the other places. I don't really update that site much, but you can find me on LinkedIn, Twitter, from that jumping off point, links to the book are there if anyone's interested in that. Perfect stocking stuffers. Mom would love it, grandma would love it, so definitely, definitely buy multiple copies of that.Corey: Yeah, it's going to be one of my two-year-old's learning to read books, it'd be great.Jeff: Yeah, it's perfect. You know, you just throw it in the crib and walk away, right? They're asleep at no time. Like I said, I've also been taking to, you know, blogging on Medium, so you can catch me there, the links will be there on Attainable DevOps as well.Corey: Excellent. And that link will of course, be in the show notes. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I really do appreciate it. And it's great to talk to you again.Jeff: It was great to catch up.Corey: Really was. Jeff Smith, Director of Product Operations at Basis Technologies. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice or smash the like and subscribe buttons on the YouTubes, whereas if you've hated this podcast, do the exact same thing—five-star review, smash the buttons—but also leave an angry, incoherent comment that you're then going to have edited and every week you're going to come back and write another incoherent comment that you get edited. And in the fullness of time, you'll get much better at writing angry, incoherent comments.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Before you sell your company, even the odds. This episode features guests Mark Achler and Mert Iseri, authors of the recent book, Exit Right: How to Sell Your Startup, Maximize Your Return and Build Your Legacy. Exit Right demystifies how to conclude the startup journey, a perfect complement to our podcast, which focuses more on the exits of larger middle-market companies. As Brad Feld states in the Foreword, “Mert and Mark set the roadmap for how entrepreneurs and business owners can proactively manage the process of getting to a successful exit along the way”. As Jeff says at the start of the interview: Mark and Mert cover so many great informative topics in the book. There is a wealth of tips to guide business owners through what can be a tumultuous process, getting through the exit. There are also so many topics we align with: relationships matter most, planning for wealth, time kills all deals, and the importance of following a best-practice process.  In this podcast episode, we focus on three topics with a lot of meat to each:  FAIR, Mert and Mark's framework for a successful exit, (3:00)  The“Exit Talk” and how we suggest that all companies adopt this practice with their board (15:00), and Who is involved in the Exit Talk and why? (28:00) What is FAIR? Why does it lead to the best transactions? (3:00) Mert: What we realized as we started to gather stories and experiences from M&A bankers, lawyers, serial entrepreneurs, etc is that the real question isn't, “Let's find out who's going to pay the most.” The real question is, “What's the right home for this business? What's the right home for my people? What's the right home for the vision? Who is going to serve our customers the best?” Our view of an exit went from being a short-term transaction to a long-term partnership. The term “exit” is a poor word choice.  You're not really exiting anything. If anything, it's the beginning of a brand new relationship. So when we ask ourselves, “What makes a great home for a startup?” we focus on these four elements that make exits great. FAIR. Fit, Alignment, Integration, and Rationale.  If you have all four of those, it just so happens that you've also found the person who's willing to pay the most for your business, because they will realize the long-term value and they'll price the deal accordingly. Fit is the cultural fit between the two companies. Amazon and Zappos are a great fit. Time Warner and AOL, are probably not a great fit. It's easily described. Can you sit next to this person for four hours and not want to kill them by the end of the meeting? Can you actually make decisions without written rules? Are cultural values aligned? Are the DNAs sort of similar, cousins to each other between those two companies? Alignment is about being aligned with your co-founders, board, and shareholders in terms of the direction of where you want to go. The acquiring company also must be aligned.  We almost always dismiss the alignment that we need from all sides of the table. This isn't two sides looking at each other. This is two sides looking in the same direction. Integration has to do with the plan for how these two companies will come together. We've seen so many examples of this plan of integration being done as an afterthought. It's not just product and sales integration but people integration, finance integration; many, many layers. And all of these stakeholders have different agendas that need to be individually managed.  Rationale. Can you explain to your grandmother why this acquisition makes sense? How are we going to deliver more value to our customers as a result of this partnership? How is two plus two equal to 100 in this context? Mark: There are profound financial implications to the FAIR framework. Let's take Integration. Integration is the ugly stepchild. People always say, “Oh yeah, we'll deal with integration afterward.”  Turns out that in many transactions, it's not always 100% cash. Sometimes there's an earn-out for future performance. If you're not integrated well (you don't have the resources you need to execute your plan), there are some significant financial implications to the earn-out. Then there are the financial implications to Rationale. Transactions are typically based on looking backward using a multiple. When you create a rationale that says one plus one equals a hundred, if it's a strategic investment, you take your product and we plug it into the larger company's sales force or the larger company's customer base. What could we do inside the larger company? What's the impact of your product on the larger company? The way to maximize value is not looking backward as a multiple, but looking forward using the rationale. Strategically, why is the combination so valuable? If you can get everybody aligned around the rationale and the financial implications of that rationale, that's how you're going to drive a better price for an exit. Mert: No one's going to just sit down and tell you, “This is our rationale.” You uncover it. You unearth it over years. That's why we urge entrepreneurs to put their party dresses on. Talk to many competitors. Talk to strategics. Get out the door. You need to build this trusted relationship over time with fundamental questions. How can I help? How can I help you push your agenda forward? How can I help my customers? This is what great partnerships really look like. We're not saying go share your financials with your competitors or give away all your IP to a larger strategy, but you need to be that trusted partner that advances the mission on all sides and creates a situation where everybody wins. Mark: We wrote the book about exits, but it turns out that the decisions that entrepreneurs make at the beginning of their journey have an outsized impact at the end of the journey. Even though this book is really about the exit, there is really good advice there about the beginning of the journey as well. Jeff: That's exactly right. This book is really about the journey.  All of the steps on the journey influence the end. There's so much wisdom in the book and insights about all the things that you can do to proactively get to the right end. Management meetings are oftentimes the first time that business owners meet their potential acquirers, whether they're competitors or strategics, or investors. But the longer that relationship can be developed, the more that you can uncover in terms of the shared common goal of what can we do together. And the best valuation and the best terms will just naturally evolve. What is an “Exit Talk”? How can founders use it to reach alignment in their boardrooms? (15:00) Jeff: The Exit Talk really struck a chord with me. Let's encourage clients and future clients to have these discussions and this thought process through the FAIR framework to really think ahead. Sometimes we as investment bankers get brought in late in the game. But most of our transactions and our best relationships really span years. We get to know the business, the goals, and importantly the people involved, the operators, the owners, the founders, and the investors. Some of these relationships for us span a decade or more. We give them advice on how to grow their companies. This concept of an exit talk is missing from my perspective. Exit discussions are often secretive or clouded in secrecy. It is a very small universe of folks within a company that knows that a transaction is imminent. It's rarely discussed openly among the senior leadership team until late in the game. What you guys propose is proactive. Through your work and sharing your work with my future clients, I'd like them to embrace this philosophy. I love this quote that you said, “Instead of fueling the awkwardness of the exit topic by staying silent, we are putting forward a new norm that we believe the entire industry should adopt, which is the Exit Talk.” Mark: This is one of our favorite topics. But before we dive into the Exit Talk: We are such big believers in trust. Every deal has its ups and downs. It has its emotional turbulence, it's the journey. Trust is the lubrication that gets deals done through to the conclusion. I just wanted to put a fine point on that topic of trust because it permeates everything we do. The Exit Talk.  It turns out that there's a stigma to talking about exits. CEOs are afraid. They're afraid that if they bring up the topic of an exit that their board and their investors are going to think their heart's not in it. They've lost hope. They've lost faith. In the Venture Capital or Private Equity world, we have a time horizon. When you take our capital, you take our agenda, and you take our time horizon. We're looking for X return over Y timeframe. And if you're in year one of a fund, we've got plenty of time.  Let's go build and grow. If you're in year 10 of a fund, we've got to start returning capital back to our LPs. With the Exit Talk, what we're proposing is that once a year, maybe your first board meeting of the year, you have a regularly scheduled annual talk where the CEO, without fear of being perceived as their heart's not in it, can talk about the exit. The reason it's so incredibly helpful is that you have the luxury of time. If you had 18 months or two years, you have the luxury of saying, “Who's going to be the most likely acquirer? Is it going to be a strategic acquirer? And why? Who is it and why would they want to acquire us? Or is it going to be a financial buyer and what are they looking for? Are they looking for top-line revenue?”  If we're going to sell to somebody who really cares about growth, we may invest a little bit more heavily in sales and marketing. If it's somebody who is more financially oriented and really cares about EBITDA, we might tighten the ship and focus on profitability.  It gives you the luxury of time to get your intellectual property in order, make sure that every single employee has a signed agreement, and make sure that trademarks and patents are filed appropriately. Get your data room pristine. If you have the luxury of time, you can optimize and present your business. And you could take the time to find the best bankers and attorneys who really are going to represent you well. Mert: An outcome of this talk doesn't necessarily have to be “we're ready to sell, or we're not ready to sell”. It can also be an opportunity to start prototyping some of the theories around how you add more value to your customers. This is a great centerpiece for what we believe an exit should be reasoned around. This will help our customers faster/better than what we could do on our own by just raising more money or gathering more capital or resources. For instance, if you are going to have a strategic alignment with a larger company like Google, but you're not ready to sell, it's still an opportunity to start a relationship. Maybe we work on a mutual customer together. Maybe we create some content together where we tell our stories and we share our wisdom with theirs. You want to start charging up that trust battery over time. When you are ready, you are a known entity. The reality is these M&A (Corporate Development) leaders want to buy companies from trusted entities. They don't want an egg on their face either. They want to know the company that they're investing in. They're not viewing this as an acquisition, they're really viewing it as an investment. They want to know they can trust you. They want to know that you can go the distance. It's a really difficult thing to do to create that kind of trust. You're not going to rush through trust. You're going to build it incrementally over years. Even the identification of a strategic partner when you're not ready to sell is extremely valuable because that's an opportunity to generate a relationship. Find out what their priorities are. See if your solution helps move those numbers forward.  Mark: We're big believers in empathy. We have an empathy framework. There are three rules of empathy: 1) It's not about you. It's always about the person sitting across the table from you. 2) Do your homework.  Deeply and truly understand what's important. Mert just said, “Go listen to the quarterly earnings report.” They're going to tell you what they care about. 3) Bring a gift, add value. When I say bring a gift: what can you do? If you're an industry leader, provide some thought leadership about where the market's heading. Share new bits of technology. Not only can you gain knowledge about their strategic direction, you can also share knowledge and be thought of as a trusted thought leader.  If you take those empathy rules and apply them to building relationships over time, that's how you're going to earn trust. Jeff: I love the idea of a trust battery and charging that up over time. You can't do that overnight. You can't do that in one management meeting. You can't do that in a really compressed timeframe. You really need to start early and think about what you can bring to the table. What can you bring as a gift to add value to somebody else so that they can see the value in what you are bringing?  That's really the roadmap that you guys layout in your book: what steps can we take proactively to get to the best outcome. Who is involved in the Exit Talk, and why? (28:00) Mark: Let's separate out the annual exit talk from an actual transaction process. The exit talk is a board of directors-level conversation. Maybe you bring in one or two top lieutenants into that conversation, depending on the relationship between the CEO and maybe one or two C-suite members. But that's a board-level, strategic conversation that's not for the whole company. (For an actual transaction process), there are lots of different ways of handling it. My own personal opinion is that there is a dance that takes place starting as an aperture that broadens over time. One of the challenges with telling any employee about a transaction is human nature. “What's that mean to me? Am I going to have a job? Am I going to get fired? Am I going to become rich? What are my stock options worth?” One of the challenges is that not all deals happen; deals fall apart all the time. So the team has to have their eye on the ball. For the CEO, when they're going through a transaction, it can be all-consuming.  We've seen instances where companies started slowing down, missing their numbers because the CEO was distracted and not focused on running their business.  The way I think about it is starting with the CEO and the board, keeping a really tight circle of information. And then as the conversations start to broaden and deepen in a transaction, then people are going to start the due diligence process.  Make sure your C-suite is involved and your executive team is involved. The people who are going to be part of the due diligence process, obviously you're going to have to inform them. I don't think it's a great thing to just wake up one morning and say to your entire employee base, “Hey, guess what? We just got sold.” There's a middle ground someplace in that continuum. Try to keep it confidential through most of the process. As you start to get to certainty you need to start opening it up so it's not a surprise to everybody. Mert: There's one major stakeholder that hasn't been discussed and I just want to bring that up, and that's your family. Most founders overlook that and think of this transaction as a business event. This is a life event. Your family is a humongous stakeholder. We want to highlight that this is a critical component of whether an exit happens or not. What's happening with your family is just as important as what is happening with your board and other stakeholders. Mark: I couldn't agree with you more. It's not just us, it's our families and our loved ones too that have a stake in this. Jeff: It goes for all key constituents, starting with the family and then moving down to the board members and the C-suite and figuring out what's the right communication style and method and frequency. These things are really critical decisions that most folks don't really spend the time thinking about. Mark: One of the questions we ask CEOs is: when you're done with the transaction, will your employees come back to work for you in the next company you start? Will your investors want to invest in you in the next company you start? Will the biz dev lead of the large company who goes on to the next company, are they going to want to buy your next company? I think what many entrepreneurs fail to understand is that the relationships you build and your legacy live on way past the deal and the transaction.  We're big believers in servant leadership and that the best CEOs don't view life as a zero-sum game. They make sure that they take care of their customers, their employees, and their investors. They try to find the balance of supporting all relationships over time. ABOUT OUR GUESTS While a successful entrepreneur may exit a handful of companies in their lifetime, large buyers close deals all the time. Without decades of experience in mergers and acquisitions, founders don't have the tools they need to get the best results for themselves, their teams, or the new parent company. Through dozens of interviews with M&A leaders at the biggest Silicon Valley acquirers—as well as attorneys, bankers, and founders who have been through the trenches—Exit Right delivers the hard-earned lessons that lead to successful exits. From negotiation to valuation to breaking down a term sheet, managing legal costs, and handling emotional turbulence—this unparalleled guide covers every critical aspect of a technology startup sale. Learn where deals get into trouble, how to create alignment between negotiating parties, and what terms you should care about most. Above all, learn how to win in both the short and the long term, maximizing your price while positioning your company for a legacy you can be proud of. Author Biographies An early employee of Apple and Head of Innovation at Redbox, Mark Achler has been creating and investing in tech startups since 1986. Today, he is a founding partner of MATH Venture Partners, a technology venture capital fund, and an adjunct professor at the Northwestern Kellogg School of Management. Mert Iseri co-founded SwipeSense, a healthcare technology company acquired by SC Johnson in 2020. Prior to that, he co-founded Design for America, a national network of students using design thinking to create social impact, now part of the IBM Watson Foundation. He is currently an Entrepreneur in Residence at MATH Venture Partners. Socials Mark Achler Mert Hilmi Iseri Book About the hosts Gina Cocking serves as the Chief Executive Officer of Colonnade Advisors. Gina began her career in investment banking at Kidder Peabody, was an analyst at Madison Dearborn Partners and an associate at J.P. Morgan & Co. She was the Chief Financial Officer of Cobalt Finance, a specialty finance company. She went on to become the Chief Financial Officer of Healthcare Laundry Systems, a private equity-backed company for which she oversaw the successful sale to a strategic acquirer. Gina served as the Line of Business CFO – Consumer Banking and Lending at Discover Financial Services. Gina serves on the Board of Directors of CIB Marine Bancshares, Inc. Gina received her BA in Economics and an MBA from the University of Chicago. Jeff Guylay is a Managing Director of Colonnade Advisors. Prior to joining Colonnade in 2000, Jeff was an investment banker at J.P. Morgan in the firm's Mergers & Acquisitions and Fixed Income Capital Markets groups in New York. He also spent several years in J.P. Morgan's Chicago office. Jeff has over 20 years of M&A and investment banking experience and has served as lead execution partner on over 25 M&A and financing transactions at Colonnade. Jeff received an MBA from Northwestern University's Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a Master of Engineering Management from the University's McCormick School of Engineering. Jeff received a BA from Dartmouth College and a BE from Dartmouth's Thayer School of Engineering. About the Middle Market Mergers & Acquisitions Podcast Get the insiders' take on mergers and acquisitions. M&A investment bankers Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay of Colonnade Advisors discuss the technical aspects of and tactics used in middle market deals. This podcast offers actionable advice and strategies for selling your company and is aimed at owners of middle market companies in the financial services and business services sectors. Middle market companies are generally valued between $20 million and $500 million. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and consider leaving us a short review:

This episode continues with our “industry spotlight series” where we focus on specific trends and opportunities in middle-market M&A transactions. Our previous episodes have covered four industries in which Colonnade has played a significant role as an M&A advisor to both buy-side and sell-side clients. We add F&I Agencies & Payment Plan Providers as industries where we deeply know the dynamics and players so as to provide exceptional service to clients who hire us to assist them in a transaction. Colonnade has studied the F&I Agencies and Payment Plan Provider markets for the last 20+ years. We have worked on nearly 30 M&A transactions on the buy-side and the sell-side. We have gotten to know the industry players and the buyers. We've identified some high-opportunity M&A plays that could help to drive even more value, scale, and customer satisfaction in the industry. Spotlight on F&I Agencies (1:00) In this first part of our episode, we answer the following questions: Where do F&I agencies sit in the F&I ecosystem? (1:00) What does a typical F&I agency look like? (7:00) What is going on in terms of M&A and what are the value drivers in the industry? (9:00) What is driving M&A transactions right now and what are some potential M&A plays? (12:00) Where do F&I agencies sit in the F&I ecosystem and what value do they provide? (1:00) Gina: Between the F&I administrators and the F&I office and the dealership, there are F&I agencies. They are independent agencies with independent agents. They are like insurance agents. They bring together the product administrators and the dealers.  Gina:  The agents have deep knowledge about the products they represent. They can train the F&I office on those products and how to sell the products. They also act as the middle man or the interface with the administrator. They are one distribution arm for the administrators, which makes them critical in the ecosystem. They are a valuable component of the overall F&I ecosystem. Jeff: The F&I agency is a particular point in the value chain. It's a differentiator. Some administrators sell to dealers through a direct sales force, others use F&I agents.  Gina: There are administrators who go direct to dealers, but most administrators also use independent agents. They may have a direct sales force, but they have independent agents also. The only sector where that seems to not always be the case is selling into independent dealerships. You tend to see more direct agents that are employed by the administrators selling into the independent dealerships. Gina: An important component of what the agents do is help the dealership with reinsurance. Reinsurance is an important component of a dealership owner's profits. For every contract, every F&I product that is sold, there is a reserve set aside for future claims. F&I agents are usually very fluid and educated in talking about reinsurance and making sure that the dealership has the right reinsurance programs. So they deal with reinsurance, they do training on products, they do training on how to sell products. They sometimes help with staffing in the F&I office, and they'll help with some of the technology that is between the F&I office and the administrator. Gina: F&I represents a third of a dealership's profits. Everybody within the organization and affiliated with the organization is going to make sure that F&I runs smoothly. What does a typical F&I agency look like? (7:00) Gina: There are well over 100 independent agencies, and approximately 75%-80% of F&I agencies are less than 10 employees. There are very few large agencies. There are a few that are scaling, but there really aren't many. There is only one national agency that comes to mind and that's Vanguard (owned by Spectrum Automotive). Vanguard has been very acquisitive in building out its agent network. We also see Brown & Brown, which is a P&C insurance brokerage. They've been acquiring F&I agencies over the last few years. I don't know if they have a national footprint yet, but they're probably getting pretty close. And then you have acquired a lot of small agencies. ​​Jeff: The Brown & Brown example is an interesting one that we've watched over the last five to six years as they've entered the industry. We've always thought their participation in the F&I agency world makes a lot of sense, given the parallels to the P&C distribution market. What is going on in terms of M&A and what are the value drivers in the industry? (9:00) Gina: We think that the M&A market for F&I agencies will continue to be hot in 2022. (See Gina's cover article in Agent Entrepreneur, 2022 M&A Predictions for F&I Agents) Agent value is driven by a couple of different factors. One is diversification. One of the challenges for these small agencies, just like any small company, is having all of their eggs in one basket. An F&I agency may have one dealership group that represents 40% of sales. That is a gating factor to trading and getting the highest possible value. Agencies that have significant concentration, which I call greater than 15%, trade at a lower multiple than agencies that have little concentration. Another value driver is size. We look at the number of W-2 employees (as well as financials). Jeff:  Important when you go to sell these companies: Who owns the dealer relationships? And what's the risk of attrition in a transaction? Gina: A lot of diligence needs to be done in these transactions to really understand the nitty-gritty of who, not just on paper but in practice, owns the relationships. What is driving the M&A transactions right now and what are some potential M&A plays? (12:00) Jeff: It sounds like an industry that could be rolled up further. Following the playbook of the P&C insurance distribution market, you got a lot of mom and pops out there and a few large players.  Gina: Both Brown & Brown and Vanguard Dealer Services (Spectrum Automotive) are rolling up agencies. The rest of M&A activity we see is not a roll up, but administrators buying agencies. National Autocare and Portfolio Group have been very inquisitive. There are many other administrators who bought one, two, three agencies, as they attempt to lock in their distribution channels.  Gina:  There should be another roll up of F&I agencies. There should be a private equity firm that's coming in here saying, “I'm going to put a hundred, $150 million to work and we're going to leverage it. And we're going to buy up 20 F&I agencies. We're going to make a super-agency with national coverage.” That could be uber-successful for everybody involved. It just hasn't happened yet. Jeff: The folks that are acquiring are paying pretty high multiples, and that's a challenge. Any new entrant would have to go in and go big pretty quickly. They'd have to find a platform that they can scale and put a lot of capital to work while holding their nose as they pay big prices upfront. Gina: A lot of the M&A activity we have seen is with an older generation that is retiring. There's also some leakage happening where the younger, talented, hungrier F&I agents are like, “I get it, I can do this.” They leave and go start their own agency. I think we'll see that next-generation starting to trade in about a year or two. Gina: I have one last point I want to cover about F&I agency M&A: what's driving the activity. First of all, there's a lot of money looking for deals. There are private equity firms backing administrators that need to grow inorganically. But we also see a lot of M&A activity at the dealership level. They're getting bigger. Big dealership groups are buying up other dealers, independent shops, and dealership groups.  Every time one of those transactions happens, the agent that represents the target dealership is at risk of losing that client. Dealership M&A is driving F&I agency M&A. I think that this is the question that keeps a lot of agents up at night: Are they one or several M&A transactions away from losing a significant portion of their relationships and their livelihood? Spotlight on Payment Plan Providers (18:00) In this second part of our episode, we answer the following questions: How do payment plan providers add value to the auto F&I sector? (18:00) How big is the industry and who are the biggest players? (23:00) Why are payment plan providers a favorite industry of Colonnade? (25:00) What is going on in terms of M&A and what are the value drivers in the industry? (29:00) How do payment plan providers add value to the auto F&I sector? (18:00) Jeff: Payment plan companies came out of the ground around 20 years ago. They started as an offshoot of the insurance premium finance market, which we've talked about in a previous podcast. Fundamentally, this market is designed to help consumers purchase F&I products cost-effectively. Whether you're in a dealership (point of sale) and the F&I person says, “This VSC is going to cost you $3,000” or whether you get a piece of mail about an extended auto warranty (aftermarket), once you get sold on buying the coverage, the questions is always: Do you want to write a check for three grand or do you want to finance it over two or three years?  In most cases, the VSC/extended auto warranty gets financed. That's where these payment plan companies come in. Jeff: At the dealership (point of sale), the payment for an F&I product typically gets rolled into the auto loan. It's just one of the line items in the auto loan, and you (as the consumer) pay it off as you go. There are some payment plan providers that focus on point of sale at the dealership, allowing a consumer to finance the product outside the auto loan. In the aftermarket, which is really where we see these payment plans flourish, it's a different dynamic. If you're on the phone with a direct marketer and you agree to buy the coverage, you can put 10% down and pay over 18 or 36 months, depending on the payment plan. Interestingly, they're interest-free and cancelable at any time. And as you continue to drive your car and assess the usefulness of the product, you can cancel it at any time. If you cancel it, all you do is call up the seller or the administrator and say, “I want to cancel my payment plan.”  In that case, you get a portion of your money back (the unearned premium). It works in a similar way to the insurance premium finance market. The contract is earned over the life of the product. If it's a five-year product and you're one year into it, you might get 80% of the money back. The payment plan company is indifferent because it will just get their pro rata share back from the administrator and seller. The seller will sell the product to the consumer, and if they attach financing to it, the seller will collect the 10 or 15% down payment. The payment plan company will insert themselves and front the rest of the money to the administrator and to the seller. The administrator has to front some money to the CLIP (1) provider, but the revenue to the seller and the admin fee gets fronted by the payment plan company. Jeff: Our Industry Report on this sector goes into much more detail about the industry. How big is the industry and who are the biggest players (23:00) Jeff: We estimate this is about a $5 billion a year originations market. There's not good data. We've done a number of studies over the years and think that's the size of the market. It grows with auto sales and the adoption of products. It's grown considerably over the last several years. There are probably 10 independent players in the market. There are just a small handful of large players. The biggest players are PayLink, which is owned by Fortress and Milestone. Walco is the next biggest, and they're growing nicely. This is the Walder team that previously ran Mepco and Omnisure, and they've started up a new finance company that's growing quite rapidly. Mepco is a large player, they're top three, that's owned by Seabury. There are other smaller players like Budco, Line 5. Service Payment Plan is a big company in the dealer space, again different dynamics but similar product offering. PayLink, Omnisure, and Mepco really dominate the aftermarket space. Folks like Service Payment Plan dominate the dealer (point of sale) channel. Why are payment plan providers a favorite industry of Colonnade? (25:00) Gina: I love the payment plan business because it is so low-risk. What the payment plan companies do is hold a cash reserve on each funding in case the underlying consumer cancels. And that happens. There are a lot of cancellations in the direct consumer marketing of vehicle service contracts. As we've discussed before, it's not because the contracts are bad contracts, but it's because consumers actually have transparency. In the case of vehicle service contracts rolled into an auto loan, consumers don't get a breakout every month of the components of their auto loan that they're paying. They don't see that 80% of your auto loan payment is for the car, 10% is for the vehicle service contract, et cetera, cetera. But when a consumer is financing or using a payment plan for a vehicle service contract in the aftermarket, they have complete transparency as to what that cost is for. And if they decide as a household, they no longer need that product (they need to redeploy that payment to something else like their mortgage), they can cancel. The payment plan businesses have a cash reserve for this. So it is a very low risk business and has great returns. Jeff: Some of these companies have several hundred million dollars of portfolio and each contract starts out at $3,000 and burns down. These are very granular portfolios. You're not going to take a big loss on any particular contract. Unlike the insurance premium finance industry, the incidence or likelihood of fraud is negligible, and the risk here is quite low given the granularity. We like the short duration of these assets. We like the low loss rates. Generally, these transactions are priced at a 15% to 20% unlevered return. They're very high-yield. There's no credit risk. We're not doing anything with consumer credit risk.  We really don't care. We're just managing relationships with sellers and administrators. All those dynamics are favorable to this lending universe. I love this business. It's a niche industry, $5 billion is not the $50 billion commercial P&C market, but it's meaningful and growing. What is going on in terms of M&A and what are the value drivers in the industry? (29:00) Jeff: There really hasn't been much activity as there's a limited universe of players. Some of the administrators are vertically integrating and getting into the payment plan industry. We worked on the initial sale of Mepco to Independent Bank almost 20 years ago. We sold PayLink (which used to be called Warranty Finance Company) to Oxford Financial. It's now owned by Milestone and Fortress. Omnisure: Ed and Paul Walder started up that business from scratch and grew it to a couple hundred million dollars of receivables. We advised on the sale to Fortress.  PayLink and Omnisure merged in 2017 and put together two leading players in the industry. The other important transaction to mention is Seabury's acquisition of Mepco out of Independent Bank in 2017.  Most recently Walco has come out of the ground. Walco was started in early 2020 by Ed and Paul Walder again, starting up another competitor in the sector. They've grown considerably in recent years and are doing a great job building out that business. We don't see a ton of M&A activity per se, but it's a really interesting market. Part of the challenge from an M&A perspective is that there has not traditionally been a deep bank buyer universe of this product and that confounds me a bit. For all the reasons we mentioned, this is a really interesting, dynamic asset class. It's very similar to insurance premium finance, which has a number of large banks in the sector and a number that want to get into it.  The collateral structure looks very similar, except that payment plan providers have higher yields, higher return on assets, and even lower losses. And there's no fraud. I think there's a real opportunity for forward-thinking banks to embrace this asset class and do quite well with very little risk. (1) A CLIP is a commercial liability insurance product that covers the contractual obligations of the insured. A full reimbursement CLIP would indemnify the insured commercial entity for all monies it expends to fulfill a contractual commitment.   About the hosts Gina Cocking serves as the Chief Executive Officer of Colonnade Advisors. Gina began her career in investment banking at Kidder Peabody, was an analyst at Madison Dearborn Partners and an associate at J.P. Morgan & Co. She was the Chief Financial Officer of Cobalt Finance, a specialty finance company. She went on to become the Chief Financial Officer of Healthcare Laundry Systems, a private equity-backed company for which she oversaw the successful sale to a strategic acquirer. Gina served as the Line of Business CFO – Consumer Banking and Lending at Discover Financial Services. Gina serves on the Board of Directors of CIB Marine Bancshares, Inc. Gina received her BA in Economics and an MBA from the University of Chicago. Jeff Guylay is a Managing Director of Colonnade Advisors. Prior to joining Colonnade in 2000, Jeff was an investment banker at J.P. Morgan in the firm's Mergers & Acquisitions and Fixed Income Capital Markets groups in New York. He also spent several years in J.P. Morgan's Chicago office. Jeff has over 20 years of M&A and investment banking experience and has served as lead execution partner on over 25 M&A and financing transactions at Colonnade. Jeff received an MBA from Northwestern University's Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a Master of Engineering Management from the University's McCormick School of Engineering. Jeff received a BA from Dartmouth College and a BE from Dartmouth's Thayer School of Engineering.

Jeff – It's difficult to get out of the porn life when God isn't a part of your life Margaret - Fatima: When Saint John Paul II consecrated Russia did Lucia personally think it was legit or was she told in a vision? Maryanne - I was introduced to Porn and drugs many years ago and it almost killed me. When Patrick said “jaws of life” I was hit hard. Colin - The priest's phone rang during confession. What are your thoughts on priests with phones in confessionals? Adrienne - I was glad that the woman called in about that third promise about the bishop in white. Patrick describes the Third Secret of Fatima Rose - How do I forgive my family for a hurt they caused?

Intro.(1:22) - Start of interview.(1:51) - Jeff's "origin story". He grew up in Dayton, Ohio. He went to Carnegie Mellon University for undergrad "to study engineering and play football." He graduated with electrical and computer engineering degrees, and took off to Silicon Valley. He first worked in the semiconductor industry with Altera. He later got into financial services, first with Gehrson Lehrman Group, then with SecondMarket (early player in the secondary markets for private shares, later acquired by Nasdaq) and Owler (crowdsourcing data on private companies). He joined Nasdaq in 2014 to help launch the Nasdaq Private Market. In 2016 he got promoted to run the listings team for Nasdaq in the west coast.(4:39) - Jeff's take on Nasdaq's role and vision: "In the last 5-6 years our approach has been to create a lifecycle approach to supporting our corporate clients: 1) Nasdaq Entrepreneurial Center (early stage), 2) Nasdaq Private Market (as companies scale and need to provide liquidity to their shareholders), 3) Listings Business (for companies going public), 4) Once companies are public, we offer a number of products and services to empower their IR, corporate governance and ESG disclosure practices." Beyond this work with corporate clients, Nasdaq also operates exchanges in the US and EU, it has an investment intelligence business (indexes, sell market data) and it's a technology provider to capital markets (including market surveillance technology, AML/KYC solutions, and others).(7:38) - Jeff's take on growth of IPOs during the pandemic (~250 operating companies have gone public in Nasdaq this year) and SPACs (there have been 495 IPOs in 2021 raising ~$138bn). "As a private company you've never had more options and better access to capital and liquidity." Private companies can raise: 1) Late stage venture capital rounds ("there seems to be $100m rounds everyday"), 2) IPOs, 3) SPACs and 4) Direct listings.(10:13) - His take on the impact of government actions on the economy (and how they impact markets). The acceleration of digital transformation during COVID-19.(12:39) - His take on the Nasdaq Private Market (facilitated ~$36 billion in transaction volume for ~500+ private companies) and why they decided to spin-off NPM as s stand-alone company, receiving investments from a group of banks including Citigroup, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, and SVB Financial Group.(16:05) - The "stay private or go public" decision per Jeff: "It all boils down to the company's goals and objectives in different phases of its lifecycle." Companies go public for a variety of reasons, but some of the primary ones are: 1) to raise capital, 2) to provide liquidity, 3) brand enhancement (prestige) of being a  public company, and 4) to leverage its equity as an acquisition currency.(18:53) - His take on regulatory pressures on private markets (particularly from the SEC, as explained by Commissioner Lee's speech on "Going Dark" and problematic aspects of private markets).(23:24) - On the rise of retail investing and "meme stocks". Zero commissions took down the cost of trading, it made trading more accessible to people. The advent and impact of social media (from social message boards to Reddit). The dissemination of information has changed the nature of trading. The SEC report on equity and options market structure conditions (October 2021).(26:08) - On growth of ESG. "It all starts with the generational shift that is going on, from Baby Boomers to Millennials." "The new generation thinks beyond the bottom line." "People and investors are focusing on non-financial metrics for public companies (more and better disclosures)."(29:52) - History and nature of Nasdaq's Boardroom Diversity Rule (approved by the SEC on August 6, 2021). Standard disclosure matrix and minimum diversity standards (gender and minorities) with long phaseout periods. "We received 200+ comment letters to the rule, 80% was positive. From the 20% that was negative comments, 10% said that we shouldn't implement the rule, and the other 10% said we didn't go far enough."(34:10) - His take on crypto and blockchain technology. "We were thrilled to welcome Coinbase to Nasdaq via their direct listing." "It's really an interesting and dynamic time for the crypto markets." "It's still early innings in terms of the regulatory framework (from SEC and CFTC)." (36:16) - His favorite books:How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie (1936)Genius Makers by Cade Metz (2021)(37:05) - His mentor Bruce Aust (retired Vice Chairman of Nasdaq)(38:29) - On Nasdaq's approach to technology in the boardroom: their board portal Nasdaq Boardvantage, critical for security. The Nasdaq Center for Board Excellence "offers the latest governance insights and actionable intelligence for board members and executives (board evaluations and questionnaires". The topic of ESG is very relevant for boards, and they have an advisory team that consults with boards on ESG, Nasdaq OneReport (to simplify the process of ESG data capture, engagement, oversight, and disclosure).(40:05) - An unusual or absurd habit that he loves: From the book Extreme Ownership (Jocko Willing and Leif Babin): "The first thing I do in the morning is to make my bed." This way everyday you start by accomplishing something.Jeff Thomas is a Senior Vice President of Nasdaq's Corporate Services business unit. Based in San Francisco, Jeff oversees Nasdaq's new Listings and Capital Markets businesses. He also oversees business development and relationship management for Nasdaq's listed companies and Investor Relations Solutions' clients in the Western United States. Previously, he served as President of Liquidity Solutions at Nasdaq Private Market, where he worked closely with private companies to help them provide shareholder liquidity prior to an IPO. If you like this show, please consider subscribing, leaving a review or sharing this podcast on social media. __ You can follow Evan on social media at:Twitter @evanepsteinLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/epsteinevan/ Substack https://evanepstein.substack.com/Music/Soundtrack (found via Free Music Archive): Seeing The Future by Dexter Britain is licensed under a Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License

Find Jeff and Jessica Jennings at: https://www.greatestmarriageever.com/homepageFollow them:Instagram: @greatestmarriageeverFacebook: @greatestmarriage.everIn today's episode, Matthew and Kim host Jeff and Jessica, husband & wife, and partners in their marriage counseling practice ‘Greatest Marriage Ever.' This power couple met while getting their master's degrees in professional counseling in 2002 and now reside in Charlottesville, VA. With a combined 40 years of experience, they have helped thousands of couples rekindle a deep connection through cutting-edge neuroscience, relationship research, and positive psychology. Tune for incredible advice from the relationship professionals themselves. Key Topics-Things you want to bring from your past into your marriage v.s the things you want to change-Understanding the process (collective needs and fears) behind a conflict -How to break the ice during a fight -Learning to be vulnerable, not defensiveQuotes“Whatever wounds, whatever struggles we have are going to come forward in the marriage, and that's the point. The point is to really create a safe space so each of you, regardless of where you come from, can face these things.” -Jessica “Given my background and experience, commitment means you stay, you stick through it hell or high water”- Jeff “A lot of time conflict resolution has to do with understanding what's going on underneath... It's not the content, necessarily... What's underneath that anger.” -Jeff“It would be this icy cold feeling in the home for 2 or 3 days where we're not really talking, but we've learned to recognize that cycle when it's happening a lot sooner and be able to call it out and be able to communicate what we need from each other” -Jeff“It's easy to point out the bad guy… but there is no bad guy, you are both hurting, and you are needing to feel safe in order to reconnect. The cycle is really the bad guy.” -JessicaFollow us at:Instagram: @kickasscouplesnation Facebook: @kickasscouplesnation Twitter: @kickasscouplesFor access to workshops with professional therapists, keynote speakers, hot seat training and more exclusive content join our online learning community at: https://matthewphoffman.comPre-order ‘Kickass Husband: Winning at Life, Marriage, and Sex' by Matthew Hoffman at https://matthewphoffman.com/ And don't forget to leave us a review! 

Thank you for tuning in for another episode of Life's Best Medicine. Jeff Kotterman is a Licensed Master Sports Nutritionist (the first in San Diego!). He is also a coach, mentor, teacher, speaker, researcher, and is the founder of the TriSystem Health Network. In addition to holding every certification the NASN has to offer, he has earned a degree in health and physical education from the College of New Jersey in Trenton and holds additional certifications from AFAA, ACE, and NAFC. In their discussion, Brian and Jeff talk about how they discovered the benefits of low-carb eating, the multifactorial nature of health, the freedom and joy of knowing, practicing, and teaching truth, the nuanced art of effective health/fitness coaching, and new technologies and systems of doing healthcare that are making patients, doctors, and health practitioners healthier and happier. Life's Best Medicine According to Jeff: “It is realizing that you've gotta let God—someone who has your best interest in mind—lead the way. Left to my own devices, I'm gonna screw it up. Until I said to God, ‘What do You have for me? What did You make me for?,' I was beating my head against the wall.” Thank you for listening. Have a blessed day and stay healthy!   Links:   Jeff Kotterman: TriSystem Health Network Linkedin Facebook Email: jeff@trisystem.com NAS Nutrition Phone: 1-800-538-2348   Dr. Brian Lenzkes:  Website Low Carb MD Podcast   Simply Snackin'

Now that the country is opening back up again, many people are excited to see their loved ones, eat at restaurants, go to shows, and live their lives in a more pre-pandemic way. But as excited as we all are, sadly, many of our favorite places to visit no longer exist. They shut down during the COVID-19 recession and couldn't survive. So today I am absolutely thrilled to welcome back my guest to the show. While others weren't so lucky, today's guest is excited to give us an update. I'm Hilary Topper and you are listening to Hilary Topper on Air. Joining me today on this episode is Jeff Jaffe. He's the founder and owner of Pop International Galleries. They are an art gallery on the Bowery at the junction of Spring Street in New York City. Welcome to the show, Jeff. Jeff - Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here, given what we've all gone through this last year and a half or so. Hilary - Gosh, it's been, it's been crazy. Um, well, I'm very happy to have you back on the show and I'm so glad that Pop International Galleries, which is one of my favorite in New York City, is still open and doing well. Can you remind our listeners about who you are and what Pop International Galleries is all about? Jeff - Sure, The Pop Gallery started back, believe it or not, it's hard to even comprehend back in 1997 when I sort of came to realize that there was a need for an art gallery to focus on specific things. And in those days it happened to be pop art, which was Andy Warhol and Keith Haring and big names, John Michel, Basquiat, and Roy Lichtenstein and so on and so forth. And we did really well with that. But as things began to progress, it dawned on me that Pop International really meant focusing on pop culture more than pop art per se, that pop art fits into the realm and genre of, uh, what we're sort of interested in, but there were more things too, we were missing out on. And so we began to focus on sports, photography and rock and roll photography, and, more recently, street art and graffiti, and, as a consequence of which, Pop International Galleries has become this sort of iconic little center for focusing on anything that has to do with pop art and popular culture. Hilary - So, as we were talking at the beginning of the show, I said that this year had been like no other, how was the gallery doing? And how did you fare during all of this? And how did you survive? Jeff - It's funny. I was just going to say before you said the word survive that we dived into survival mode. There were choices that had to be made. And then there were decisions that were made for us that we had no power to overcome or resist or embrace. We just had to sort of take them on. And as a consequence of which, we sort of began to look at what the virtual world was going to offer us. What technology was going to offer us and help us with, that goes past the questions of having conversations with landlords and dealing with those kinds of things. And we were fortunate enough to have a lovely landlord who was willing to help work things out and help us through so that we could really remain in business. And then the other thing is I made a very, very strong decision. Some people questioned me why, but I decided not to let a single staff person go. I was just sort of, of that mind where I felt a certain amount of responsibility. And so I took steps to enable remote working and remote selling, which was very difficult because selling art remotely is not something that we would ever have thought we would ever encounter. People like to come to an art gallery, they like to look at the art and smell it and touch it and look at the frame and we really had to come up with different sort of means and strategies to get people comfortable with the notion that they could buy a lot this way. Hilary - So during this pandemic, you told me that you developed even stronger client relationships. Can you talk about that a little bit? Jeff - Absolutely we, well, again, it sort of goes back to this notion of virtual business and sort of doing things with Zoom and Skype and all kinds of things. And what we discovered was that by actually picking up the telephone as opposed to sending emails, reaching out to people individually and touching base with people, especially regular collectors about us. And we have, we have a huge collectors base and I mean, people have been buying from us for 25 years. We have thousands of people that we've sold out to and we decided that one of the things that we would do is reach out to people individually. And so it began. And emails became phone calls, emails became texts, messages, and text messages, became phone calls. And then it sort of blossomed into this ongoing dialogue between our consultants and our collective base and which led into larger events using a Zoom to have virtual openings and that kind of thing, which had been very successful. Hilary - So, can you tell us, or, share with us some of the interesting artists that you represent in your gallery today and why you represent them? Jeff - Well, we represent roughly about 25 artists or so from around the world. And again, it goes back to what I said a little bit earlier in terms of representing art is certainly pop related, but it has much more to do with the notion of what popular culture is. And subsequently, we still do represent Andy Warhol and Keith Haring and John Michelle Buskey out and so on. But we've edged out into other realms, which focus on things. Like, for example, we did a very, very special event with the godfather of street art, Ron English. And Ron was thrilled at the concept of making a type of work that he had never made before, which is paintings on paper in the manner he had never made them before. And so running this book has become a very important aspect of the pop gallery. We represent a Danish artist whose name is Ola Olberg and Ola has taken the cartoon character Tintin, who many people know lots of American people don't know about Tintin, but put Tintin into different scenarios, sort of naughty sort of sexual scenarios, which is something that most people don't associate Tintin with. But the idea of Tintin and popular culture and cartoons and things, that many people and I grew up with Tintin comics. So, that's been truly successful. We represent an artist by the name of Tony Ray Negro, who did all the backstage passes for the grateful dead. When, you know, from the age of 20 back in the eighties and nineties and so on. So the whole concept of rock and roll and music fits perfectly into this notion of pop culture. And then of course we represent two other artists that really fit into this concept so beautifully that I couldn't have even imagined it. It was just a natural thing. We represent the art of Dr.Seuss, which besides all this sort of nonsense and drama that occurred with the audit Dr. Seuss recently, we represent the estate of. Dr. Seuss, which means all the illustration drawings and things that he made limited additions of and the estate represents and a very special what we call the secret audit Dr. Seuss, which has stuff that he made in his spare time or the midnight audit Dr. Seuss, along with what he called the unorthodox taxidermy, which are these really beautiful, funny sort of taxidermy heads, which are just hilarious. And then we represent Tom Everhart, who was the protégé, if you will, of Charles Schultz of Peanuts and Snoopy fame. Tom was a young guy who saw Schultz Sparky as a mentor. And they had a really wonderful father, son type relationship. They and Tom started to interpret all the Snoopy characters and Schulz gave him permission before he died to be the only artist in the world to be able to make art using Snoopy and peanuts characters without a license. He has a lifetime license. They had a show together in the loop a number of years ago. So again, this whole notion of popular culture and pop, all these, The Seuss, the Tintin, the Snoopy Eberhardt pieces that all fit in really, really well. And then of course we move into street art and graffiti. And I have some lovely stories to tell you about that when you're ready. Hilary - Tell us we'd love to hear. So the very first sort of graffiti street art experience happened with pop and about 12 years ago, actually I got a phone call from a collector, a good friend collector. They said Jeff, these two boys who live in Bushwick in Brooklyn, I've started to collect their art quite, quite seriously. And I think you should go and visit them in their studio. And I said, Mike, if you are sure that's what you suggest, I trust you and happy to do it. So Mike set up this little meeting and I drove out to Bushwick 12 years ago. Bushwick wasn't what it is today, 12 years ago or so. And I arrived in this sort of funny little loft odd building where these two guys lived and worked. They had a studio together. Their names were, Mike Buck, Michael Bucca and, Fernando Romero, their street names, graffiti names were 2ESAE and Ski. So Fernando is Ski and Mike is a 2esae and I arrived at this place sort of not expecting a whole lot, but it was kind of exciting. And the first thing of course was they had a big pile of donuts and coffee for me on the table. And on the other side, they had a big bottle of Hennessy. They had no clue who I was going to be, and they were wondering what I was going to choose. It was really hilarious. And I meant, I went for the coffee and donuts just for the record, but, I'd forgotten to mention that they went by the name of a group that painted and work together. They went by the name of UR New York. And I saw their work around, you know, they used to sell this stuff on the street for a hundred bucks. And here I had this opportunity and as I went through the space studio, whatever you'd like to call it, I knew instantly that they belonged in the gallery. So I pulled him aside and I said, Fernando, Mike, we're definitely going to do something, but there are a few things that we have to deal with first. And they said, yeah, sure. I mean, they were really, really excited. And I looked at them and I said, you know, the 37 indictments that you have against you and the five years probation that you're on. I mean, these guys were like, looking, how do you know? How do you know all this? I said, how do I know it? Mike told me, you know, Mike referred me to you. He told me all of this stuff, they said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But how does Mike know? And I had to sort of at that moment in time, decide, should I say how Mike and I figured out what the heck? I said, well, I hate to break it to you but Mike is the undercover cop who arrested you guys. It was always the uniform guys who took you in, but Mike was undercover. So you never knew who he was. And he developed a relationship with your love, of art and started collecting your art. Hilary - That's so funny. That's a great story. Jeff - There's a documentary in there somewhere. I'm sure. Mike, I'm telling you, they went bananas. These two guys jumping up and down hooting and hollering. It was just hilarious. And I said, and based on what. In order for me to put you in the gallery, we have to get rid of those issues that we just discussed and the way we're going to do it is by doing community work and getting involved with children in need and homelessness and whatnot. My attorney is a former judge. Mike, the undercover cop eventually became a DA. We're going to write letters. We're going to do all kinds of things that are going to sort of help mitigate this. And so the first thing we did was a big project in Chelsea in that there's a public housing center in Chelsea, on the west side of New York City. And we arranged for the boys to do a big mural and to work with all the children, helping them draw and paint and do all that kind of stuff. Got a fair amount of press and coverage. And one thing led to another. And the boys started working with children everywhere working with charities and organizations that we were able to connect them with. They went overseas, they went to Australia to work with Aboriginal children. When they went to South Africa to work with children in need, they went to Israel to work with Palestinian and Israeli children to show them how we're all the same. They really did some beautiful things and, as a consequence of all of this, all of those charges and probations were dropped and they have gone on to become two of the most important artists that we represent here. And my relationship with them is incredible. I mean, we are talking about a father-son relationship, and we've sold hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of their art since then. Hilary - Two boys selling their art for 50 bucks on the street, wonderful story. That's awesome, that's awesome. Thank you for sharing those stories with me. So let's take this a step back. Someone walks into your gallery and they're looking to start a collection. How does that process work? Jeff - So the one thing about Pop International Galleries, which I believe was a game-changer and for many reasons, was that we decided to break down that whole barrier. You often walk into these galleries where someone's sitting behind a desk and you can barely see them. It's a high sort of desk and it's just white walls and maybe three pieces of art on the wall and nobody even talks to you. And then they look at you and they want to know what shoes you're wearing or what handbag you're carrying or how big the diamond is, or the watch on your hand. You know, that kind of stuff. We broke that completely. We have a much more open, friendly, inviting, environment. And as a consequence of which people absolutely love coming into the gallery. And so we focus on people who have never bought a piece of art before and on people who have big collections. And so we don't differentiate. We just help people find all that they love. We've always had a policy not to sell art on the basis of investment, when people say to me, well, if I buy this print, you know, it's 3,000 bucks, what's it going to be worth in 10 years? And I say, well, I have a really good stockbroker who has an office down the road. If you'd like, I could send you there, but we try not to. If you came to me with 5 million bucks and said, hey, could you help me invest in art? That might be a different story, but we break down all those barriers. Hilary - That's awesome. Let me ask you something. Do you have any exciting exhibits coming up that you want to share with us? Jeff - I do. Actually. There are a few things that we're working on. I'll just tell you about two that we had that sort of part of what this conversation was about. Where these virtual exhibitions, the first one we did was with Ron English and it was a big test for us to see if we could sell art while the gallery was shut down, or while we have contracted hours or while there were rules and regulations about social distancing and so on and so forth. So we did a test actually with two artists, Ron English, and McKenzie Papa, British artists who I'd been working with for many, many years. And they were amazing, absolutely amazing. They were RSVP events only. So you couldn't come to the Zoom call if you didn't get, if you didn't RSVP, couldn't join the thing. The idea was to show some videos, moderate with questions. My team here had questions for Oscar, the artists, and then, we opened up some of the questions to collectors and again, moderated things well enough so that it didn't get drawn out in long, sort of like into a sort of drawn out thing. And we sold a whole bunch of art. And so it opened up this idea for us. To do some more of them. And, we're now going to be working on a curated show of street art, that Ski from that team that I was just telling you about Fernando Romero is going to curate, that's going to be absolutely amazing, it's going to be a smash hit, no questions about it because he's going to, he has a lot of connections, obviously in the street art world and graffiti world. And he's going to bring in people who we've never represented, um, and curated in a way that will sort of open up art that had never been shown before in this manner. So we're very, very excited about that one. The other one that I'm working on is an Australian couple, the names are Gillie and Mark a husband and wife team who make art together. And, they're actually very well known in New York City for their outdoor monumental bronze works. And, before the pandemic, they did this beautiful, beautiful exhibition of women of valor. They had come to realize that women bronze, sculptures and statues of women, we're sadly lacking female sculptures, and monumental sculptures of women. There were less of them than there were men and they were going to change that. So they did this really beautiful collection of sculptures of some fantastic women, from Ruth Bader Ginsburg and so on and so forth, it was just really beautiful. And then they've done these large outdoor installations. People may have seen it up at Astor Place in Brooklyn, the big rhinos stacked on top of one another. Monumental pieces and part of what they do besides them tease and make fun of themselves. Gillie and Mark, Gillie is a bunny rabbit and Mark as a dog in their paintings and they sit on Vespas and bicycles and do all kinds of sweet, lovely things. We're going to do an event with them online and sort of tied in with the time zone with Australia. Those are two really great things that are coming up. Hilary- So cool. How could our listeners get in touch and actually sign up for any of these events? Jeff - Really easy. All you need to do is shoot us either an email, to, you could send it to me, jeff@popinternational.com or just art@popinternational.com. And just say, Hey, I heard the podcast, or you could, um, just call the gallery. And the number is (212) 533-4262. And we'll put you on the list and, and sort of begin to develop a relationship with you the way we have with our many, many thousands of collectors that we have over the years, we look so forward to it. Hilary - This was really informative and congratulations on your successes. I really appreciate you being on the show. I want to also thank our sponsors, the Russo law group, The Profit Express with Tim Healey, Pop international galleries. Thank you. Gold Benes LLP, and the Pegalis Law Group. And last but not least, I want to thank you our listeners for tuning in. If you want more information on this show or any other show you could visit our website at hillarytopperonair.com or you can find us on Spotify, iTunes, Google Play, apple podcasts, even Amazon Alexa, where out there you'll find you can find us have a great week and we'll see you next time.

We are excited to focus today’s episode on the final phase of our unique 16-week sales process. Today we are focused on phase four: exclusivity/documentation. We invite you to listen to episode 001 for more information about phase one (pre-marketing), episode 002 for more information about phase two (go to market), and episode 0016 for more information about management meetings: https://www.coladv.com/podcasts/002/ Other episodes dive deep into technical aspects and tactics used in middle market and mergers and acquisitions. We also invite you to download our 16-week sales process timeline for more information on how Colonnade Advisors typically approaches the process of selling a company: https://coladv.com/wp-content/uploads/Four-Phases-with-graphic.pdf In our deep-dive discussion on exclusivity/documentation, the word “scary” comes up quite a few times. Rather than being scary from a horror film or haunted house, this scary is more like cold feet before a wedding. That’s because exclusivity/documentation is when you pick your partner and take a leap of faith with a single buyer. You’ll learn that in this phase of the sales process, we are not yet on the homestretch. In fact, our discussion unveils the many challenges of this phase of the sales process that must be simultaneously and actively managed. You’ll hear that this phase of the sales process almost feels like a crescendo. Our job at Colonnade is to manage this increasing set of workstreams and pull off a successfully closed deal. Then, as you’ll hear in the podcast episode, it’s time to celebrate. Key topics covered in this episode: • Preparing for the shift of power from seller to buyer • The importance of the letter of intent ("LOI") negotiations • How to select the winner (while keeping others warm in the background) • Who’s involved during the exclusivity/documentation phase • How long the process takes, and how much it costs • Pitfalls that we have encountered during this phase and how Colonnade mitigates these risks with our clients What is the exclusivity and documentation phase, and how do you get up to this point? (01:07) Gina: "This phase occurs when a seller is exclusive with a single buyer—we have received several bids and determined the winner. Both parties sign an LOI at this phase, and the seller agrees not to provide information or engage with any other potential buyers. The seller is essentially going off the market, which can be a bit scary because if the deal does not move forward with the exclusive buyer for some reason, then we will have to go back to the other bidders." What tasks need to be completed during the exclusivity and documentation phase? (02:11) Gina: "During exclusivity and documentation phase, we work through the confirmatory due diligence, which often involves a buy-side quality of earnings report. Also, during this period, we negotiate, finalize and execute the definitive purchase agreements and work through any related regulatory tasks to close." Is it possible for sellers to go through the exclusivity and documentation phase with multiple potential buyers? (03:18) Jeff: "In large transactions, it is possible to run multiple parties through this phase, but it typically does not happen in middle market deals.” What is the importance of the letter of intent (LOI) negotiations? (04:13) Jeff: "LOI negotiation is critical because we want to nail down all the topics that we think are going to be critical in negotiation and final documentation before we commit to one party. Hammering out these key topics ahead of time also expedites the process." Is the highest price generally selected as the winner? (05:05) Jeff: "Business owners do not always pick the highest price. It is also about picking the best terms." Listen to Colonnade’s podcast episode 007: Striking a Deal: Price & Terms: https://www.coladv.com/podcasts/007/ Once a seller is exclusive with a buyer, is there a backup plan if the deal falls apart? (05:15) Jeff: "We keep the non-winning bidders warm and engaged in a limited fashion to make sure that we have backups if the deal falls apart.” How do you assess the certainty to close a deal? (06:30) Jeff: "Assessing the certainty to close comes from years of experience working with buyers and thinking through key items such as where is the capital coming from, what their acquisition history is and how likely they are to close on the terms that we have outlined." Are there particular buyer types that are more problematic in terms of the certainty to close? (06:35) Gina: "One group that has caused us problems with the certainty of close in the past is search funds or unfunded sponsors, which are private equity investors that do not have a dedicated fund. These funds tend to bid the highest prices, which is appealing, but they will still need to raise the capital once in exclusivity from institutional investors. Those institutional investors will want to do their diligence, almost restarting the deal process, which creates more risk of the deal not getting done." Jeff: "About ten years ago, family offices were also in this category to some degree. Family offices had smaller dedicated investment teams, so the certainty of closing was considerably lower than traditional private equity firms or a strategic buyer. But that has changed over the last decade where family offices have shifted to become credible buyers." How long does it take to get from signing the LOI to closing? (08:45) Gina: "We generally put 30 to 45 days in the LOI with a provision that both parties can extend the period of exclusivity by mutual written consent based on putting forth best efforts. The time to close depends on the industry. For example, some industries may need regulatory approval or use complex accounting methodologies, which would require more time." What are the components of confirmatory diligence, and how are these workstreams sequenced? (10:06) Jeff: "There is HR, accounting tax compliance, regulatory, legal, IT, and others. Running these workstreams in parallel is key because it is the easiest way to minimize time to close, but you cannot get to the legal documentation until all these other workstreams are completed." At what point do you expect the first turn of the purchase agreement from the buyer? (12:30) Gina: "Pushing to get that first turn of the purchase agreement is very important. We frequently put the purchase agreement in the data room before the LOI, and we expect a markup of it along with the LOI or an issues list, which will help expedite the process.” Who pays for the costs associated with confirmatory diligence and documentation? (13:38) Gina: "The seller pays for the seller's costs, and the buyers pay for the buyer's cost." Jeff: "In the context of a rollover deal, where the company is getting bought by a sponsor, the surviving entity ends up absorbing costs from both sides." What are the typical costs incurred during this phase for sellers and buyers? (14:31) Gina: "The seller can expect to pay for tax counsel or tax accountants if there is tax work to be done, an attorney to assist with negotiating terms, a tax lawyer, and other types of counsels. Buyers can expect to encounter legal fees, accounting fees, consulting fees, IT, technology consulting, and HR consulting." How much does this phase cost for both the sellers and buyers? (14:31) Gina: "Ballpark is anywhere from $75,000 to a couple hundred thousand for a seller. On the buyer's side, a couple hundred thousand easily on diligence for a middle market transaction that's valued $75 to $125 million.” From the seller's side, who is typically involved during the confirmatory diligence phase? (15:55) Gina: "Confirmatory diligence is a big undertaking, and sometimes the knowledge level about the company needs to go beyond the deal team that has been involved to date. At this stage, other people in the company may need to be made aware of the transaction (e.g. sales management, IT, HR, etc.), which can be tricky." What types of issues generally come up in employment contract discussions? (18:57) Gina: "One issue that comes up is pay, which we manage by building out expected compensation levels in the financial model. The second issue is the bonus structure, and the third is vacation. The most important issue that comes up is non-compete, who gets one and what the terms are." Which employees will generally be subject to non-competes? (19:25) Jeff: "There is usually a non-compete for selling shareholders that will be getting proceeds from the deal and non-equity participants that are key to the ongoing entity.” What are the risks associated with employment agreements and non-competes, and how do you mitigate these risks? (20:52) Jeff: "The risk with non-equity participants that are key to the business is that they could choose not to go with the new buyer for whatever reason. This can result in a domino effect from a price change to the deal not happening at all. One tactic that we use is to encourage our seller clients to put in place some type of transaction and retention bonus." Gina: "When Colonnade is working on a transaction, we ask a lot of questions upfront. We will often ask who has employment agreements and what are the terms of those agreements. For business owners that are thinking about selling in a few years, they should be thinking about who their key employees are and how to get them under employment agreements now." What are the different types of employee bonus plans associated with a sale? (23:17) Jeff: "One is transaction bonuses which are for employees who are essentially doing two jobs during the deal process. The second is the retention bonuses that ensure employees are not going to leave when the deal closes." What is Hart Scott Rodino ("HSR"), and how does it impact the transaction? (23:59) Gina: "HSR is one type of regulatory approval that might be needed to close a deal. HSR applies to companies of a certain size, which will need to be approved by the government for anti-trust reasons.” Jeff: "The amount increases every year, but HSR impacts transactions roughly around $80 million in transaction value. There is a filing fee, and it is about a 30-day process.” How long does it typically take from signing the legal documents to closing? Who owns the company during this period? (26:13) Jeff: "It can be 30 days or longer, depending on the different types of approvals. For financial services deals where there is generally regulatory approval, it is often 30 or 60 days. During this period, the seller and buyer essentially both own the company." Can sellers request a break fee if the deal does not close? (27:00) Gina: "In highly competitive, larger transactions, there will be break fees, but in middle market M&A, it's highly unusual to have a break fee. That is because there is not enough diligence that has been done before the signing of the LOI. Without all the information, it is unlikely that buyers will agree to a break fee because they may find out many things during confirmatory diligence." What are typical pitfalls encountered during the exclusivity/documentation phase? How does Colonnade mitigate these risks with seller clients? (28:58) Gina: "One is indemnification, which reps and warranties insurance can mitigate.” Listen to Colonnade’s podcast episode 010: Escaping escrow: Reps & Warranty Insurance: https://www.coladv.com/podcasts/010/ Jeff: "Another pitfall that we have seen involves who owns the intellectual property. To mitigate this risk, we address this issue early in diligence.” Gina: “Another is when the buyers want to speak with the seller company’s top clients. We try to delay that conversation until as late as possible in the process. We want to get to the point where we feel comfortable that we have covered all the major issues, and we're likely to close." Jeff: “The last pitfall that comes to mind is tax, where two parties can have a different view on tax regulations in a given jurisdiction. Our job is to push things forward and cut through all the issues as quickly and efficiently as we can.” What dynamics are typically in play right before a deal closes? (39:02) Jeff: “What I find is when people are the angriest and they're about to throw up their hands, that's when we know we've got a deal, it's sort of where everyone's been pushed to their limits. Everyone's had to give and take, and they're just about ready to walk away, and then the deal signs.” Gina: “And then we celebrate.” Host Information Gina Cocking Gina Cocking serves as the Chief Executive Officer of Colonnade Advisors. She returned to Colonnade as a Managing Director in 2014. Gina began her career in investment banking at Kidder Peabody, was an analyst at Madison Dearborn Partners, and an associate at J.P. Morgan & Co. She was a Vice President at Colonnade Advisors from 1999 to 2003. She left Colonnade to gain operating experience as the Chief Financial Officer of Cobalt Finance, a specialty finance company. She went on to become the Chief Financial Officer of Healthcare Laundry Systems, a private equity-backed company for which she oversaw the successful sale to a strategic acquirer. Gina served as the Line of Business CFO – Consumer Banking and Lending at Discover Financial Services. Gina serves on the Board of Directors of CIB Marine Bancshares, Inc., a bank holding company based in Brookfield, Wisconsin, that operates banking offices in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin. Gina received her BA in Economics and an MBA from the University of Chicago. Additionally, Gina holds the Series 24, 28, 79, and 99 securities licenses. Jeff Guylay Jeff Guylay is a Managing Director of Colonnade Advisors. Prior to joining Colonnade in 2000, Jeff was an investment banker at J.P. Morgan in the firm's Mergers & Acquisitions and Fixed Income Capital Markets groups in New York. He also spent several years in J.P. Morgan's Chicago office. Jeff has over 20 years of M&A and investment banking experience and has served as lead execution partner on over 25 M&A and financing transactions at Colonnade. Jeff received an MBA from Northwestern University's Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a Master of Engineering Management from the University's McCormick School of Engineering. Jeff received a BA from Dartmouth College and a BE from Dartmouth's Thayer School of Engineering. Jeff holds the Series 7, 24, 63, and 79 securities licenses. Jeff serves as a director of the non-profit Nurture, an organization dedicated to enhancing the nutrition and wellness of children and families. About the Middle Market Mergers & Acquisitions Podcast Get the insiders' take on mergers and acquisitions. M&A investment bankers Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay of Colonnade Advisors discuss the technical aspects of and tactics used in middle market deals. This podcast offers actionable advice and strategies for selling your company and is aimed at owners of middle market companies in the financial services and business services sectors. Middle market companies are generally valued between $20 million and $500 million.

Jeff Sussna is a consultant and author specialized in helping organizations deliver software more effectively. This is Jeff's second appearance on the show. In this conversation, he tells us about Customer Value Charting, a visual tool that helps teams balance strategy and agility. Listen to the show Download episode 61 Show notes Sussna Associates Designing Delivery: Rethinking IT in the Digital Service Economy by Jeff Sussna The Informed Life episode 15: Jeff Sussna on Cybernetics Customer Value Charting: A Visual Tool for Customer-Centered Discovery & Delivery by Jeff Sussna Software as a service Salesforce Slack's new DM feature can be used to send abuse and harassment with just an invite (The Verge) Promise theory Mark Burgess Wardley map Impact mapping User Story mapping ServiceNow JIRA Read the transcript Jorge: Jeff welcome to the show. Jeff: Thanks for having me. It's great to be on and great to talk to you again. Jorge: Yeah, I should have said welcome again to the show, because this is not your first time here. So, thank you for joining us again. Now, some folks might not have listened to our first conversation, so for their benefit, would you mind, please, reintroducing yourself? About Jeff Jeff: I'm Jeff Sussna. I live in Minneapolis and I run a software delivery consulting firm there. And our clients are companies that typically are doing some form of Agile and/or DevOps, and they're struggling with it. And what we typically find is that they face a conflict between agility and autonomy on the one hand, and strategy and alignment on the other. And Agile and DevOps by themselves... they're very much about breaking things down into smaller pieces. Smaller teams, smaller systems, smaller units of work, as a way of making change and adaptation easier. But they don't really have much to say about how you put the pieces back together. I like to say that customers don't want to buy microservices, they want to buy service. And so, there's this kind of big missing piece in the discourse around where are we trying to go and what are we trying to do? And so, our focus is partly on helping organizations do Agile and DevOps more effectively, but what that really ends up being is helping them overcome this conflict between, "this is what I'm doing today," and "this is where we're trying to go this year." What customers want Jorge: And this is the reason why I wanted to speak with you again, because this idea of striking a balance.... I'm going to frame it as striking a balance between agility and strategy — or you called that a strategy/alignment — is something that I think plays out in many fields, not just DevOps. This notion that the best way for us to make progress, let's say, is by working step by step and making small adjustments. But those small adjustments need to be in service to something, right? And... anyways, you shared a link to a post on your website about a tool called Customer Value Charting, which seems to get at this idea of striking a balance between agility and strategy, and I was hoping you would tell us about it. Jeff: Sure. But we need to start by taking a little bit of a step back. One of the things that we've learned working with our clients who typically are making the transition from software products to software services and cloud delivery, is that the cloud completely transforms the relationship between the customer and the software provider. I had an epiphany a number of years ago. I was looking at a marketing website for an early software as a service company; might even have been Salesforce. And right on their homepage, they were talking about things like multiple data centers, and offsite backup, and advanced security practices. And I realized that they were spending marketing dollars on IT operations. And then I read a sentence that really opened my eyes. It said, "we update the software so you don't have to." And the epiphany was the recognition that the cloud transfers the cost of change from the customer to the software provider. So, it used to be when software was a product that the feedback from the customer was things like, "well, we have to go through a three-month change management process before we can install the new version." Or "the new version requires an OS upgrade, and we're not scheduled to do that until next year." And with the cloud, the conversation is completely different. It's, "why is it taking you so long to deliver this feature upgrade, or this bug fix, or this stability improvement?" So, customers start to expect this continuous increase in value. And on the one hand, they become impatient with delay. No matter how good your feature is, if it takes too long to deliver, you start to lose customers. But at the same time, what they want is not just this continuous spray of random features. What they want is improved value. And what value is... I think of it in terms of three dimensions. The first is usefulness. Does it help me accomplish something that I'm trying to do? The second is usability in its largest meaning. Can I understand it? Can I adopt and onboard it? Can I administer it? Can I get help with it? Can I integrate it? And finally, dependability, which is everything from scalability to performance, to resilience, to security, to compliance, to trust. If you look at what happened with Slack this week, when they released this new global DM feature and then pulled it because it turned out to be this opportunity for a huge abuse. They violated people's trust. And so, they had to pull a feature. The missing piece in Agile and DevOps Jorge: I see dependability and usability as perhaps table stakes. And when you speak of creating value, that is where the usefulness dimension comes in. Is that a fair reading of that? Jeff: I think we could have a lengthy debate about whether dependability is table stakes. I mean, yes. Ultimately, what you're after is usefulness, right? The reason I need a dry cleaner is because it isn't feasible for me to clean my tuxedo at home. So, I need someone to do it for me and you're right, that ultimately, that's what I want: is to get my tuxedo clean. But I also need to get my tuxedo clean in time for tonight's formal event. So, things like speed may be important. I need to be able to easily get to and from the dry cleaner, so usability in terms of access to roads and shopping malls and whatever, may be important. The reason that I put these three together is... again, the shift from product to service involves this inclusion of operations. And that's something that often falls short. Product management tends to think of itself as being in the feature business. I do a lot of work with what I call cloud native product management, which is working with organizations and helping them understand that product managers need to be accountable for these usability and dependability metrics, as much as they are accountable for number of features delivered, or customer growth, or revenue, or anything like that. In any case, what customers are expecting is a continual evolution. So, across these dimensions that the service is getting continually better, not just sort of a random spray of things. And so, the challenge is how do you become more continuous and how do you have some strategic direction? And again, this is kind of a missing piece in the Agile and DevOps discourse, and I think that's why there's this kind of impedance mismatch intention and a certain frustration between Agile teams and designers or Agile teams and product managers or Agile teams and executives. And in thinking about how to resolve it, it occurred to me that the answer is simply to approach your work, both at the strategic and the tactical level, in terms of the outcomes as opposed to outputs. And what I mean by outcomes is customer outcomes. Customer benefit is maybe a better word. You know, the benefit of the dry cleaner is that I can get my tuxedo cleaned in time to go to the formal event. It's not fundamentally about a cash register or a counter or even cleaning chemicals. And I mention that because a lot of the conversation I see around outcomes over outputs tends to actually talk about business outcomes. You know, revenue growth and customer retention, and time on site and business outcomes are great. I don't have any problem with them, but people tend to skip this step. We have a hypothesis that this feature will cause this change in customer behavior, which will lead to this business outcome or business impact. But it leaves open the question of, well, why is the customer changing their behavior? What is the benefit to them? So, I started thinking about both strategy and direction and context, and also tactical work in terms of customer outcomes. We have an epic, or we have a roadmap, or we have a strategy, or we have a user story. Why are we doing that? Who cares? How does it help? And I started working with teams in helping them figure out, well, how do we start to put those two together? And a couple of things happened. One is that for a long time, I've been using some work in something called Promise Theory, which was developed by Mark Burgess, which is a way of thinking about how large-scale complex distributed systems can work well. Where a distributed system could be anything from a large-scale software system to a company, to a city, to an economy. And it's based on the idea that parts of the system make promises to each other. Where a promise is simply an intention to do something of benefit. So, we can think about Slack as promising the ability to get work done together across boundaries, right? Why do you need Slack? If everybody's in the same office, at the same time and they work for the same manager, you don't need Slack. You just talk to each other. It's when you're separated by space and time, and you're working across an organization, or across multiple organizations that you need help in order to get that done. And you can think about all of the features that Slack contains as working in service to that promise. And you can think of those features also as making promises of their own. You know, in order to work together across boundaries, you need to be able to have real-time and non-real-time conversations. You need to be able to find and start conversations and dip into them and out of them. None of that says anything in particular about a feature. We haven't said anything yet about a channel, or a thread, or an emoji. We're talking about what it is that Slack helps a user do and what the user can accomplish by doing that. So, I started working with teams in terms of thinking about what promises we would make. And these could be promises to end users, or they could be promises to other parts of the organization. I do a lot of work with platform teams and their customers are internal development teams. And what happens if you look at particularly traditional IT, there tends to be this approach of: if you want us to do something, file a ticket and we'll do it. It's very requirements-driven. It's very outside-in. We try and do what we're told to do and often we fail, for various reasons, most of which aren't our fault. They have to do with the way that the organization is structured and the way the work is structured. And this is really about turning it inside-out out and thinking about a platform or whatever the team is in the organization, as a service provider that is making and hopefully fulfilling promises to its internal customers. So, I work with them to understand, well, what promises are you making? How well do you fulfill them? And how can you both do a better job of fulfilling your promises and also think about more useful ones to make, which is where innovation really starts to happen. Promises The other interesting thing about a promise — and I should probably talk about this a little more — why this word promise? Why not contract or guarantee or requirement? A promise represents an intention that may or may not actually come to pass. I might promise to take out the trash, and then I might forget. So sometimes we break our promises. And counterintuitively, that's actually a really good thing. I had a conversation with a very thoughtful person once; we were talking about promises and then she sent me this email and she said, "I really don't understand why you would ever make a promise that you don't intend to actually fulfill." And I said, "well, you never would, but you can't guarantee things." So, the word "promise" forces you to think about the possibility of failure, which on the one hand helps you do a better job of not failing, but it also gives you an opportunity to think about improvement and repair. You could think of a promise as a bundle that brings together this idea of service, and customer jobs, and commitments to actually deliver service and continuous improvement. We can create this process where we think about our work at every level, from the tactical all the way to the strategic, in terms of how are we promising to help? How effectively are we fulfilling our promises? And how can we improve our ability to make and fulfill promises that are useful? The next step was to start developing a visual way of representing this. And in particular, a visual way of connecting tactical to strategic outcomes or promises. Customer Value Charting For a while I was working with something called Wardley Maps, which is a very powerful visual mechanism for identifying value chains all the way from the strategic, down to the very, very tactical and devolving that value. And the only problem I found is that when I was working with people who weren't sort of math or graphing nerds, if you will, they tended to find Wardley Maps kind of hard to look at. They're very much built around kind of graph theory and cartesian coordinates and that kind of thing. And people seem to get somewhat confused just by the visual representation. So, I was casting around for another way to present it. I started looking at Impact Maps and User Story Maps, which were very appealing, but what I found in practice was that they tended to kind of fall back into representing features, right? Here's this big feature we want to build and we'll make a User Story Map to represent the parts, and then we'll create slices and say, "we're going to create this set of sub features first." And I really wanted something that focused on this idea of outcomes and promises. And that's what led to Customer Value Charting. You could think of it as a riff on Promise Theory meets Wardley Maps meets User Story Maps. And it's a very simple visual representation, which is basically a grid of three rows and four columns. When you look at it from the top down, the top row is, "why is your help needed?" What is it that your customer or a potential customer is trying to do that they can't do on their own? So, if we continue with our Slack example, it's getting work done together across boundaries. If you look at the middle row, this is, "how do you help?" What promises do you make in support of that higher need? So, again, Slack promises things like the ability to have structured conversations that are both real time and non-real time so you and I can just chat and then one of us can go off to lunch and come back and continue the conversation. The ability to dip into and out of conversation. So, if I join a new team, I can find out what conversations have been happening. I can see what happened last night or yesterday. The ability to dynamically create and find conversation. And the bottom row is, "what help do you need in order to fulfill your own promises?" If you're on the Slack application team and you're building an application, you need things like elastic infrastructure, because it's a very dynamic system and users come and go. It needs to be able to scale up and down very easily. You also need help from the customer support organization, because you need visibility into how are customers using the application and how are they struggling with it so we understand where it needs to be improved. Once you do that, you have a nice visual representation of your value proposition all the way from the top to the bottom of what business are we in and how do we help and who do we help. Then, if you look at it from the left to the right, you basically lay out your promises in terms of how effectively do we fulfill them. So, at the left, you have promises that you don't make. This isn't part of our business. If you want to manage some very structured workflow like procurement or ITIL or something like that, you don't do that in Slack and do that in something like ServiceNow. Now, that's helpful because it bounds your scope. It allows you to say things like, "nope! We shouldn't be working on this because we don't do it. It's not our business. We don't make any promises about that." But it's also a great place to find opportunities for innovation by identifying underserved customer needs. This is a promise we don't make, but maybe we should. The second column is, "things that you're exploring." You're just dipping your toe in the water, you know? Maybe you're not sure if there's a market or a real need for it yet. You only did it in order to win a customer deal. For whatever reason you haven't fully invested. The third column is your bread and butter. This is the heart of our product. It more or less works the way it's supposed to and more or less does what people need. And the furthest column to the right is this is where our competitive advantage is. This is where customer delight happens. This is where we know people won't switch to a competitor because they really love or are hooked on this one particular feature. So now you have in one place, your value proposition and your operational reality of this is how we actually execute on our value proposition. And then the exercise becomes a matter of identifying areas where you want to move something from the left to the right. Where you want to become more effective at. This is an iterative process. You don't start with something that you don't do at all and try and make it highly effective or compelling in one shot. You start by exploring it. Let's dip our toes in the water and find out. And the final step is you start attaching actual work to it in terms of what is the next step we're going to take. An example of CVC Let's take the example of Slack where Slack doesn't do structured workflow. But a lot of times what happens is people are debugging together in a Slack channel and they find some infrastructure problem and they have to go over to ServiceNow in order to file a ticket. Wouldn't it be nice if you actually had the ability to integrate ITIL directly into Slack because there's a use for it. So, that's an area we want to invest in. We want to explore. And the first thing we're going to do is we're just going to build a very simple connector that allows you to create a simplistic incident ticket directly from a Slack chat. What you have now done is you have identified a simple small piece of work that you were going to use to validate and explore a larger, more strategic direction. And you use this as an iterative management and conversation technique so that you do some work and then you come back and you ask yourself, "well, how far did that get us along the path that we're trying to get?" maybe it was harder than we thought, and there's not really as much market need as we thought, and we should just stop. Or maybe we learn something from it, and we discover that the next thing we should do along that path is to build Y instead of X. And again, this entire process is happening in terms of promises of outcomes, not really in terms of locking down features. So, it gives you this ability to explore in an agile fashion, but to give everybody a sense of what direction we're moving in. What is it that we're trying to make better? You know, so often when I work with Agile teams, they do stand-ups and they drew retros and they define their sprint goals and things like that in terms of work and quantity and velocity. Our sprint goal is to finish these 24 stories, and we finished 23 so we're going to declare our sprint a success. Well, what did you actually deliver? What got better as a result, you know? Or what we need to do in this iteration is we need to add three database indexes. Well, what is the promise that we're delivering on? The promise is to make search 15% faster. And whether you do three database indexes or seven or one, isn't the essential point. The essential point is to make search 15% faster. So, if you connect your work to that promise, you give yourself the flexibility of how to actually go about doing it. But you have a goal that everybody understands and everybody can communicate to each other, to management, to your customers. And so, it brings together this idea of flexibility and agility with having some kind of direction that you're trying to go in that has value in everyone. A better roadmap Jorge: It sounds to me like a tool to help visualize in a more tangible way, the question, "what is this in service to and where might we be missing something?" And, in that way, it strikes me as a kind of more useful version of a roadmap, perhaps? Is that a fair read? Jeff: That is an excellent read. Yes! It is all about identifying value and evolving value. And it's funny, I'm glad you mentioned the word roadmap. If you think about a map, right? Like a real roadmap. And remember... you and I are probably both old enough to remember the days when you actually had one of those foldout paper maps. A map showed you how you could get from point A to point B. It doesn't tell you how to get there, right? You get to make decisions about, well, we're going to take highway or we're not going to take the highway, or we're going to go this way so we can stop here for lunch. It presents opportunities. And the problem I have with traditional product roadmaps is they cause, I think, unnecessary pain and frustration. You know, the underlying insight that Agile had is that when you're building something large and complex and novel — something that's a little different from what you've built before — it is extremely hard to perfectly predict exactly how you should build it, or even exactly what it should be. And if you look at a roadmap... and it's funny, I keep coming back to this idea of AgileFall, where people use Agile to do Waterfall. And there's a lot of grief and a lot of condescension... "Well, if you're doing AgileFall, you're doing it wrong. You're bad. You're bad at Agile." I think what that misses is that AgileFall represents this tension that hasn't been resolved around, "well, we need something more than just what we're going to accomplish in the next two weeks." And so, what happens is people trying to lock down the big picture. There's a presentation where somebody stood up and they presented this completely Waterfall 12-month roadmap that said, "this is what we're going to do in Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4." And then they said, "but because we're Agile, we might change the dates." In other words, this roadmap is a work of fiction. And its primary purpose is to frustrate you because we are explicitly telling you that we're making promises, right? We promise to deliver this feature on this date. And we're going to break those promises. And I think that people do that because again, we all need a sense of direction and a sense of context. We need it for ourselves, our stakeholders need it, our executives need it, our customers need it. Where are we going? And we don't know how to communicate that other than in terms of work. But if we can communicate it in terms of value, right? So, if you think about Slack, the ability to find conversations is actually somewhat crude. You kind of have to know what you're looking for, right? You're looking for a particular name, which could be somewhat arcane. So, you couldn't actually really say that the ability to find conversations in Slack is as effective as it should be. If you tell your customers, "we are going to make the ability to find conversations more effective and more powerful and more flexible." — "Oh! That sounds good, because yeah, it really needs to be better. We're really excited about that!" You haven't locked yourself into a particular date or a particular implementation. You can explore and discover that as you go and you can tell your customers, "well, here's this thing that we're delivering this week that will make conversation-finding a little bit better in this particular way." And then, "oh! We can do that again. Well, next week, here's this thing that we're delivering that will make it even a little bit better." So, it allows you to plan, and it allows you to communicate without kind of forcing yourself into a model that doesn't actually work when you're building complex software systems. Jorge: It strikes me that the traditional roadmap is a forecast of what's going to happen that is, by definition, made at a time when your knowledge of the entire situation is imperfect. And the actual process is more like... it's stochastic, right? Every step that you take changes what happens next. If that's a fair read, then this artifact that you're describing is organic in the sense that it needs to be a living document that is revisited often. And a) I'm wondering if that's a fair read and, b) if that's the case, then who is responsible for being the steward of this chart? Jeff: It is a fair read. And I'm going to struggle with the answer to who is responsible. I think there are two answers. One is the product owner and the product manager. But two is the team. Because... you're absolutely right. Its intention is as a conversation and planning tool, not actually as a document. I don't care what it looked like last month. The point is to continuously have a conversation around, "are we getting where we want to go? What's the next step to go there? And do we still even want to go in that direction?" And so, it's simply a tool for that kind of conversation. The reason I hesitate is about who owns it or who shepherds it, is the team needs to be having the conversation. And it's less important to me who runs the session or who... you know, in the good old days, many, many moons ago, before pandemic, I would say: "create a three by four grid on a whiteboard and get stickies and put them up on the wall and move the stickies around." It's funny, because a couple of years ago I worked with a team and they were part of an organization that was very, very JIRA driven. And for whatever reason, they decided to just put stuff up on a whiteboard. And it worked perfectly.So, the mechanism is less important than the process. A high functioning team ought to be able to just have this conversation. Now, I think where it becomes interesting to think about product owners and product managers is the connection with the larger business context, right? Of why are we going in this particular direction? And how do we provide feedback to the rest of the organization about the success of going in that direction? That's really where I think that sort of... I think what you're talking about in terms of stewardship comes in is: this isn't just for teams, it's a way for teams to communicate with other parts of the organization. Or "well, you want to know what we're doing? Well, what we're doing is we're making conversation-finding better, and here's why, and here's how. Here's what we're doing next to move in that direction." And we can have conversations at a higher management level of, "is conversation-finding something that we want to be investing in?" The nice thing about that is that you stop having conversations about, "well, why didn't you deliver the feature that you said you were going to deliver on this date? Your team is not performing." Right? It makes your stakeholder and management-level conversation much richer and more productive, in my opinion. Closing Jorge: Well, this sounds like a tool that is much needed. And I'm grateful that you are writing and speaking about it. Where can folks go to find out more? Jeff: Well, they can go to the sussna-associates.com website, is the best place. There's various information about it there. This is something that I have primarily been using in working with actual clients, so I'm just starting the process of exposing it more generally and starting to talk and write about it more generally. So, I wrote a book, that was really about some of the theoretical underpinnings behind this several years ago. I've been toying with the idea of writing another one, much more practical, down to earth about how to use promises and how to use Customer Value Charts in order to run an Agile organization. So, it's very much of a work in progress. And thanks to you for helping me start to talk about this in a broader context. Jorge: Well, I'm very excited to see where it goes, and, looking forward to having you again in the show sometime, Jeff! I always enjoy our conversations a great deal. Jeff: As do I! Thanks for having me, and hopefully it'll be sooner than another 18 months when we do it again.

In previous episodes, Colonnade Advisors has outlined our unique 16-week sales process timeline in four phases: pre-marketing, go to market, management presentations/buyer due diligence, and exclusivity/documentation.  Today’s episode focuses on phase three: management presentations/ buyer due diligence. We invite you to listen to episode 001 for more information about phase one (pre-marketing) and episode 002 for more information about phase two (go to market). Other episodes dive deep into technical aspects and tactics used in middle market and mergers and acquisitions. We also invite you to download our 16-week sales process timeline for more information on how Colonnade Advisors typically approaches the process of selling a company. In this episode, we focus on the management meetings, where we introduce our seller clients to a limited set of qualified buyers that have put forth strong offers to buy the company. Management meetings fall on the heels of all the work Colonnade Advisors does with our clients to prepare for this stage of the sales process. At this point in the game, we’ve worked through the list of potential buyers and have narrowed the field to the most qualified. Management meetings are the first time the seller's management team will interact with this limited set of buyers. Thus the title for our episode: Seller and Buyer’s First Date. Key questions explored in this episode are: What purpose does a management meeting serve?  What topics are covered during management meetings? Who is invited? What’s the format for a successful management meeting? How has COVID19 changed how management meetings take place? How do we best prepare our clients?  What purpose does a management meeting serve? (02:15) Gina: "Management meetings are a continuation of the storytelling of the company. It is the opportunity for the management team to tell their story in their own words.  Management meetings are different from diligence meetings—it is not a meeting for potential buyers to ask detailed questions.  Management meetings are the showcase for the management to tell the origin story, to explain in their own words what the business does. And then, very importantly, talk about the growth opportunities.” What topics are covered during management meetings? (04:35) Gina: "Management presentations involve much of the confidential information memorandum but told from management's voice. Additionally, financial numbers are updated from when the confidential information memorandum was released. Sometimes, pages are added to the management presentation specific to the buyers we're meeting with.  Jeff: "When we go to market and have one-on-one conversations with buyers and investors, different themes emerge. Some of them are new and intriguing and bring us down different paths and highlight new growth opportunities. We benefit from the collective insights and questions of up to 100 or more different investors that are looking at the acquisition from their perspective. Once we collect all these thoughts, questions, and comments that buyers ask of us, we weave those themes into the management presentation. It is a collection of ideas that we've been able to cultivate from the market." Who is invited to the management meetings? (08:12) Gina: "From the seller's side, you'll have the CEO, President, the Chief Marketing Officer, the Chief Sales Officer, and the CFO.  Management team members that are leaving post-transaction should not attend the management meeting. (From the buyers’ side) if the buyer is a private equity firm, it will typically include Principals, VPs, and maybe some analysts. If the private equity firm has an investment banking advisor, their banking team will typically attend. If it is a strategic acquirer, the group may be larger. There may be an internal M& team and/or an investment banking advisory team. If the buyer is a private equity-backed company, it will usually be the investment banking advisory team, the strategic core team, M&A team, and some of the private equity firm representatives." What’s the format for a successful management meeting? (12:15) Gina: "Meetings typically take place at the seller's location, either their office or offsite location. Some people will dial into the meeting." Jeff: "Typically, after the management meeting, the group goes out for dinner. Historically, these dinners have been significant in building relationships and deciding who our clients like and who they don't. A lot comes out in these dinners. From the buyers' side, who attends, their seniority, and how prepared they are, are an important reflection of their interest level. The best meetings are interactive, going back and forth, and the attendees don't even touch the (presentation) books." How has COVID19 changed how management meetings take place? (12:47) Gina: "Historically, there are typically four to eight people attending meetings in person. During the COVID pandemic, things have changed. We’ve had Zoom management meetings, and because people don't have to travel, the meetings have gotten larger.” Jeff:  “The management meetings being virtual versus the (traditional) in-person meetings can be challenging. One of the major purposes of these management meetings is to build a relationship between the buyer and seller. An important role we play is working with our clients to manage this relationship-building inside of the virtual culture that we're living in right now.” How does Colonnade best prepare clients for management meetings? (17:41) Gina: "At Colonnade, we will do a profile of each attendee and the firm, a list of questions that they have asked, documents that they have requested, and where we think their interest lies. We also do dry runs with the management team." Jeff: "In preparing our clients on what to present, we will draft the management presentation and then have the management team review it. We spend a lot of time talking through how it might go, particularly with the list of potential questions that we pull together." Gina: “We prepare our clients for questions that are likely to come up. One question almost every management team gets is, 'why are you selling now, or why are you raising capital now?' Another common question is 'what keeps you up at night?' We also prepare our clients for questions to ask of the buyer. One question we encourage everybody to ask is, 'what is your experience in this industry, and what trends do you see in this industry that I should be paying attention to?' Other great questions are: 'describe an ideal partnership for our firms', and 'tell me about some of your other deals that were successful?' Jeff: "It is also good for the financial sponsors to talk about some of the deals that didn't go well. If you can get somebody to open up about some challenging situations/investments they've had, that can be insightful.”My favorite question is: 'beyond the capital, why should we pick you? Why are you the best partner for us?'   At Colonnade, we do our best to prepare our clients and get them ready and through the process as fast as we can." Host Information Gina Cocking Gina Cocking serves as the Chief Executive Officer of Colonnade Advisors. She returned to Colonnade as a Managing Director in 2014. Gina began her career in investment banking at Kidder Peabody, was an analyst at Madison Dearborn Partners, and an associate at J.P. Morgan & Co. She was a Vice President at Colonnade Advisors from 1999 to 2003. She left Colonnade to gain operating experience as the Chief Financial Officer of Cobalt Finance, a specialty finance company. She went on to become the Chief Financial Officer of Healthcare Laundry Systems, a private equity-backed company for which she oversaw the successful sale to a strategic acquirer. Gina served as the Line of Business CFO – Consumer Banking and Lending at Discover Financial Services. Gina serves on the Board of Directors of CIB Marine Bancshares, Inc., a bank holding company based in Brookfield, Wisconsin, that operates banking offices in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin. Gina received her BA in Economics and an MBA from the University of Chicago. Additionally, Gina holds the Series 24, 28, 79, and 99 securities licenses. Jeff Guylay Jeff Guylay is a Managing Director of Colonnade Advisors. Prior to joining Colonnade in 2000, Jeff was an investment banker at J.P. Morgan in the firm's Mergers & Acquisitions and Fixed Income Capital Markets groups in New York. He also spent several years in J.P. Morgan's Chicago office. Jeff has over 20 years of M&A and investment banking experience and has served as lead execution partner on over 25 M&A and financing transactions at Colonnade. Jeff received an MBA from Northwestern University's Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a Master of Engineering Management from the University's McCormick School of Engineering. Jeff received a BA from Dartmouth College and a BE from Dartmouth's Thayer School of Engineering. Jeff holds the Series 7, 24, 63, and 79 securities licenses. Jeff serves as a director of the non-profit Nurture, an organization dedicated to enhancing the nutrition and wellness of children and families. About the Middle Market Mergers & Acquisitions Podcast Get the insiders' take on mergers and acquisitions. M&A investment bankers Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay of Colonnade Advisors discuss the technical aspects of and tactics used in middle market deals. This podcast offers actionable advice and strategies for selling your company and is aimed at owners of middle market companies in the financial services and business services sectors. Middle market companies are generally valued between $20 million and $500 million.  

Max: Hello and welcome back to The Recruitment Hackers Podcast, I am your host Max and today I am delighted to welcome Jeff Wald. Jeff Wald is the author of two books including The end of jobs, The rise of on demand workers and agile corporations hot topics, kicking off into 2021, Jeff, welcome to the show.Jeff: Max, thank you so much for having me.Max: It's a pleasure. And we're at opposite sides of the planet Jeff is logging in from Florida, I'm in Hong Kong. But I think the world is smaller than it has ever been. With so many of the so many of those jobs being kind of remote, being advertised as it doesn't matter where you're, where you're hiring you know it's anywhere in the world as long as you've got the skills. So, it must have been a busy year for you, promoting the cause of the remote worker and the on demand worker.  I'm even more excited about the international dimension of that, as opposed to, let's say, the creation of a new job category. I just like the fact that now the talent pool is universal and global.Jeff: I agree, I will say this man. Let's not gloss over this small little fact that you're sitting in Hong Kong, I'm sitting in Florida. This is mind blowing to me if your mind's not freakin blown by this anyone that's listening to the fact that the two of us are sitting on literally opposite sides of the planet. That is amazing. You know pre pandemic I'd said a bunch of times in the book down the hall, on another floor, down the block, or halfway around the world. You don't need to be in the same place to be on the same team. And that has become all the more true during the pandemic or I should say all the more true, it's always been true. Over the last few years it has been all the more aware than people become of that. And this is exemplified here I mean we had a wonderful conversation, prior to you know hitting record here, as if we were colleagues on a project, just working and it to me there was no difference the conversation we had then are having now than you, me sitting in your office.Max: Yes, yes, Well all the mess in my office is outside of camera view. It looks a lot better. Actually, I  control this environment better. Jeff: I'd probably be wearing pants. Those are all things that are slightly different than if I were in your office. But still, it's all amazing to me.Max: That's great. So far listeners out there. Jeff is pantless.Jeff: Allegedly, allegedly!Max: Well. So Jeff, maybe you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, before you became an author on the topic of employment. It's probably not what you grew up, dreaming to become a kind of happened with life. Can you walk us through the main steps in your career. Jeff: Sure, I started my career in finance with JP Morgan,moved to venture capital, which was just an amazing, amazing experience working with entrepreneurs, and getting to see men and women that were just trying to change the world. So exhilarating that I left and started my first company, that failed miserably and basically bankrupted me. But that's the thing with entrepreneurship, pick yourself up dust yourself off and keep going. Second company we built up, and eventually got sold to Salesforce and that was a good outcome not a great outcome. And then this last company Work Market, founded 10 years ago. Work Market is enterprise software that enables companies to organize manage and pay their freelance population, raised about 70 million from Union Square ventures SoftBank and a few others sold the company to ADP almost three years ago. So it's been a great, great journey and the sale to ADP specifically gave me the space, Max to finally sit down and finish this book because I've been working on it for like four years prior to the purchase of ADP. Max: Okay. Well, congrats on that entrepreneurial journey. I haven't read that. After you sell your business, there was a moment. It's a moment where most entrepreneurs kind of struggle with depression. Suddenly a drop, drop in activity and energy. But apparently, you made the most of that sort of drop.Jeff: That's super super interesting. I guess I understand it conceptually. It's one of the silliest reasons to be depressed, not that I wish to ever make fun of depression. I will tell you having your business fail and going bankrupt. I'd say bankrupt as bankruptcy is a technical term. Have your business fail and virtually going bankrupt. That is something that did in general did a lot of depression in me. And, you know, having not leaving my apartment for some time. As I was super bummed out by that, but I had no experience like that with the sale of joy upon  joy and gratitude and fortune. Max: Yeah. Good, I am really happy to hear that because you know who knows maybe one day I'll have to sell some of my shares. And I'd like it to be a happy moments as well. Jeff: God will. God will.Max: So, your new book, The end of jobs, The rise of on demand workers, I'm excited about this topic, because it is all of our, our mission in the corporate world and the enterprise world, to, to create a performance driven culture, and an output driven culture where people are measured on, you know what they produce, as opposed to you know how why they smile. And I think that the transition towards task base job assignment, as opposed to job descriptions, is one for the best because it actually gives more freedom to be able to just get the job done in as much in as little time as possible, which is giving people more freedom to run their lives the way they want. I mean it could be looked at. It could be looked in that way it could be looked at on the opposite side of the spectrum as like a cold market driven approach to employment. Instead of where many employers to position themselves as we are family. But I think the 'we our family' message is a bit outdated personally. How do you feel about that transition? Do you think that we're moving towards a world which is, is that what's covered in your book?Jeff: So there are a number of things that are ever covered in the book about the future of work. The first and the most important is to look at the history of work. I wrote the book because I get very frustrated with people that make predictions about the future of really anything quite frankly without evidence, specifically in the world of work. We have the history of work and how companies workers have come together to produce goods and services throughout different societal changes different technological changes. So let's study those. And the second body of evidence is data. What does the data, tell us how to data trends and patterns, play out. Currently, and obviously through history as well. The third is how companies actually engage workers. You know a lot of people think the labor resource planning meeting goes like this, CEO walks in and says, 'All right, what are we gonna do ot her workers. Let's hire the cheapest ones, meeting adjourned'. That is actually not how those meetings go, there's a lot of variables that go into that equation. And so understanding how companies actually engage workers, understanding the data and the data trends and understanding history, and how society has coped with some of these struggles before. That to me is a very thoughtful way to think about, or start to make predictions about the future of work and that's what we endeavour to do with the book.Max: So the book has a historical component that goes back to the the history of work. I was excited when I read about the time of Abraham Lincoln when they were talking about what's it called wage slaves, or where it was considered that every man should be his own employee, there was a vision that was articulated at the time that you know you were to be on a regular wage is somehow less envious, that everybody should be self employed as kind of coming back a little bit right from one or two years ago.Jeff: It certainly is coming back to the whole idea behind freelancing is the idea that you get to have flexibility and choose your own path that is a very very powerful thing it's something very encoded in our DNA to want to have control of our own destiny, of course, and all the things that the freelancer faces are starting to permeate the full time workforce. So, like called the book The end of jobs the rise of on demand workers. That is not to say I think everyone's going to be a freelancer, that is to say that all the things that the freelancer deals with task based labor, personal responsibility, algorithms, allocating work data driven HR all of those things Max are permeating the full time workforce and all workers are dealing with kind of things.Max: Okay, so, everybody who's looking at Uber drivers thinking, I'm glad I don't have an algorithm, looking over me. Time is coming up. Yeah,Jeff: it is coming. No question. It is coming.Max: Okay. From a talent acquisition perspective which is really my focus. How does this affect recruitment How does the rise of the on demand worker affect recruitment? Do you think that. Are you noticing that they're, they're being hired in a different manner than the permanent staff?Jeff: Well I think there are a few ways that all of these changes impact recruiting. The first is the recruiting is that tip of the spear right your listeners are the first people out there that are dealing with the changes and how companies are structuring their workforces. We need more of X we need less of Y. We need more people in this geography, fewer in that geography. And so recruiting is seeing in real time, the shifts in labor resource management, and that is super super interesting in and of itself. And we can spend some time talking about the types of recruiting they're gonna be more important as we get into skills based labor, and more remote work, and more on demand work and how robots and AI are going to impact the workforce with large. That's one conversation set that is a very interesting conversation to be had. The other part is how does that specific function change, given all of these things is more recruiting going to be done in an on demand capacity? is more recruiting going to be done via robots or AI systems going to be doing more recruiting? And that's another very big impact that quite frankly we don't know how that's going to play out yet. You know there are just way too many variables and it's way too early in the game, but we certainly have seen some trends around on demand recruiting. And we've certainly seen some trends around some of the tasks inherent recruiting starting to be done by machines.Max: With the start of the new year. Are you talking to companies who are setting targets around. I'd like to move, you know, 10, or 20% of my workforce to on demand, does that come down from the board to the operational level?Jeff: Short answer is, look from the board down the answer to that is usually No, that is. You'd hope, but boards, I don't think, sitting on a few public boards myself boards don't get involved that tactically even though I would argue it is strategic and they should be having that type of conversation. Those conversations are very nuanced very complex, and so I've never seen somebody come down and see any point out. When I was running Work Market because if you wanted to increase your usage of freelancers there weren't any really other places to go, if you wanted to manage a large freelance workforce and Work Market. So, I would usually get that call. And I will tell you we very very very rarely got the labor force transformation call. The call of a we're getting into the change how we're doing things we need to bring in, and we're frankly, what I would get those calls, I kind of was like this is going to be a two year conversation, this sucks, but it usually, the call will come from real big companies so you take it and start having obviously if we could work with fortune 50 company we're going to do it. What the call, we would get Max, the calls that we would get all the time is we currently manage a freelance workforce. It is a very large part of our labor force strategy and it has been for years or decades, in some cases, but it's a mess. We don't know who's where who sent what legal Raymond who is working on what is good and what we need a piece of software to help us efficiently and compliantly manage this workforce, that call, I would get all the time. But the idea that, whether it's on demand work or robots and AI, that there's going to be some huge shifts that data doesn't support it. History doesn't support it, and how companies actually engage workers does not support an argument that oh my gosh all those jobs are gonna go next year, 10% of those jobs are gonna go. Labor force statistics and labor resource planning happens very slowly and very methodically and that's that's just the reality. So it's that reality that people should be mindful of when thinking about the future of work.Max: And there's a huge regulatory component where a change in the law, and how easy it is to hire and fire will immediately impact the percentage of the staff, which is on demand right because it drives a lot of the demand.Jeff: It is a incredibly powerful maybe the most powerful, powerful variable and what I call the labor equation, very complex equations series have a system of equations, I should say that guide how companies actually engage workers, and the regulatory environment, especially when it comes to freelance workers, I would argue is the biggest variable in that equation. And the problem with that variable is that that variable itself is all over the map. It's very different how you engage worker in California than what you do in Louisiana. Workers comp board in Wisconsin has an entirely different point of view than the Labor Department in Portugal. So you got to be super super mindful of how complex it is and that's why most companies go, oh my god it's too complicated just keep everybody employed. Obviously that's a bit glib of an interpretation, but it's not that far from accuracy.Max: Yeah. Yeah, I believe it for sure. For me, I experienced it the other way I was like oh my god it's so complicated I have all these full time employees and be better I'd just have contractors, but either way. Either way, the decision towards a simpler way of doing things. I mean, I imagined that it's a little bit easier to decentralize, the compliancy, meaning. Instead of putting the onus on the employer to be in charge of everybody's, you know, being compliance is to say to the on demand worker, it's your responsibility. And by the way, here's a little bit of money to help you file your taxes or, you know, manager, your stuff.Jeff: That is a really good point there. A increasing number of companies out there that are helping the freelancer set up a corporate structure, which really makes it a vendor relationship, and that stuff certainly helps shield the company, but in no way can the company. And I would not pretend to understand laws in China, or anywhere else. But in the United States, you can't pass that liability down to the worker. So when the State Department of Labor comes, you can't say well I, you know, they all signed these legal agreements indemnify me the department labor's we go okay I don't care. There, we view them as your employees, where is our back payroll tax? Where's Social Security payments? Where's unemployment insurance? let's go gimmy gimmy gimmy. They couldn't care less. But there are ways to your point, that companies can certainly mitigate their risk.Max: Great. Well, what else can corporations think about your talking to you know it was in your title the Agile Corporation. What are some of the trends Do you foresee in 2021 for companies who want to become more agile, Besides that, besides work market. What other what other tools or methodologies do you recommend?Jeff: Well I don't anticipate a huge increase in the size of the on demand workforce. But the on demand workforce as a number shrank. So there were over 240 million workers in the on demand workforce now there are high 30 million workers in the workforce, but the labor force as a whole film. And so we're still trying to parse together, did the percent of the on demand workforce shrink grow or stay the same? My guess is that it probably that stayed about the same. So I don't anticipate in 21, a huge movement back. I think it will stay about the same. percent of the labor force, because companies are just focused elsewhere, right now, right they're trying to make sure their teams are safe they're trying to make sure that their supply chains are safe and trying to make sure that their employees are being productive and they're not thinking about labor force transformation and 21. 22 might be a very different scenario. And as we discussed earlier regulation I think it's going to be the biggest variable in that equation. But when we talk about agile Max there there are a host of different ways in which a company can be agile. The best way is managing an army of freelancers. They are completely agile. The next you know you can move into temps and the vendors to other types of relationships. The biggest change that we saw in the labor market unquestionably in terms of how work gets done, I think the biggest change was unemployment and obviously horrific impacts on labor because of the pandemic. But the biggest change in how work actually gets done was clearly remote. It was moving to remote work and does that make a company more agile? of course it does. Allow your workers to be able to work where they want how they want is a very important step in kind of breaking that bone of the one office one manager 9-5 job. And that's the job by the way that is referenced in the title the end of jobs. Robots are taking all of our jobs, far from it, they are not, that is a very clear conclusion from the book. But this idea that you have one office, one manager, you work 9-5 that job is dying and it gets replaced by people being nomadic people having flexible work arrangements, people working in different contexts so that certainly on demand. Temps of freelancers and all that jazz. Those are the kinds of changes that were sped up by the pandemic as companies had to become more agile, there was no everyone's got to come to the office from 9-5, that wouldn't happen in almost anywhere in the world, in  April of 2020. So, that is a huge step forward in the Agile corporations.Max: Actually, to your last points on, I've noticed the same trends and of course but the 9-5 aspects, there are still a bunch of companies that still look at the nine to five hour. And, and there's a strong case to be made for for the work life balance to say, yeah, starts at nine five so you don't invade people's lives, but on the other hand, it does remove you know to do so because you, you say we want to create boundaries and we want to create overlap or people working at the same time. It does also mean you're removing a little bit of freedom from your employees, from your staff, let's say, to decide when they work. Jeff: Of course.Max: It's not that great right, like. I would argue like work whenever, and we try to minimize the number of conference calls if we can.Jeff: That is a fine way to think about it, but when we're thinking about 164 million people in the US labor force actually 154 million now, 164 at the beginning of the pandemic. That is not the way all of them are gonna work. If you have a shift at H&M. That's when your shift is, there's no hey I want to work from Barcelona this weekend no no your shift is here in the store and that's when your shift is, if you're working on the line at Volkswagen your shift is nine to five, or maybe, whatever it is, there is no a I'm going to you know come in late. And I'll stay later, I don't know, that's when the shift starts like you have to be there. So it's important to think about the full context of the labor force. When we have conversations about the future of work it's easy to slip into this idea that everybody works in these remote first type jobs that are very enabled by remote work and digital work and all these other things. The reality is most people don't, that's just not the reality for most workers in any labor force.Max: Agreed. Agreed. And I work in these industries where people do have to physically come a lot of the time, so I know that's the case, but I guess, for the knowledge worker. I still see, I still see people trying to cling on to this office. You know way of work, sure where, whereas all communication, eventually, as much communication as possible should be moved to the asynchronous. So because we can read faster than we can sit through a meeting.Jeff: I completely agree. But to your point, some people do enjoy it. And there are tremendous benefits to it. I saw a study that 93% of remote workers still live within a commutable distance of the office. Because going remote doesn't mean you never go to the office, there are benefits to having everybody come together and have brainstorming sessions and do small talk. Those serendipitous encounters at the watercooler, they're actually incredibly good for productivity, do they need to be every day? Of course not. Can we allow people to flexible work arrangements, those that want it and those that can do it. Sure. But here's another important thing 42% of the US workforce can work remotely. That's it. Max: yeah.Jeff: And the US by the way is the highest percentage of any workforce on the planet that can work remotely. But another way to say that is 58% of workers, cannot do this digital lifestyle, cannot work remotely their jobs won't allow it. So we need to be mindful of that when having these types of conversations.Max: Alright, so it was a bubble 2020 bubble and the narrative, to a certain degree that was not really supported by hard data. In fact, most people will still be coming into the office and, and the on demand worker or while it's an ongoing transition. We haven't seen a huge rise in the percentage of the workforce that goes on demand. And the robots will now take our jobs. I'm sure that there's a lot more depth to this book, than my cliff notes here. How do people find your book, I'm gonna put a link to where do you want to sell, are we selling through Amazon or is there another place?Jeff: There are tons of other places but 98% of the books that have been sold have been bought on Amazon and, you know, certainly when the book came out in June, there was almost no other place to buy the book. That's not true actually was on barnesandnoble.com, a few other web sellers but it's funny I'm down here in Florida now and Florida's COVID restrictions are much looser than my normal home in New York, and I passed the Barnes and Noble today. As I was going school, get my office set up down here. Home Office, and I'm super excited to go tomorrow and see if my book is there, so hopefully it is in bookstores where it's supposed to be but it'd be the first time I get a chance to go into an old school Barnes noble I'm super excited. Max: All right. Don't forget to put on your protective gear for that Barnes and Noble experience.Jeff: No question. No question.Max: And, well, how do people get a hold of you? What's the best way to reach you?Jeff: Well, you can certainly follow me on twitter at @Jeffreywald, that's the only place that I go by Jeffrey for wells I go by Jeff, but I couldn't couldn't get Jeff Wald, and LinkedIn, I'm always I will always accept connections on LinkedIn and Amazon is certainly the best place to find the book.Max: Wonderful. Well thanks Jeff for sharing your insights and coming on the show and. Well, I look forward to my FREE copy in the mail. No, I'll go and get myself a copy I've got a bunch of books,I am a little bit behind on my reading, and I'll go get myself a copy right now.Jeff: I appreciate it thank you so much. It was so great to chat and I look forward to listening to many more episodes of this podcast.Max: Thanks, Jeff. Jeff: Thank you.

In this episode, Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay focus on valuation - determining what your company is worth. Key takeaways from this episode are: The right valuation methodology depends on the industry and the company Valuation should not be overly focused on the multiple. It also depends on what you to apply the multiple to Market price discovery through a competitive process will drive the highest valuation In this episode, Colonnade Advisors addresses the following questions as related to valuation: What are the different valuation methodologies used? (00:48) Gina: "There are comparable company trading, comparable transaction, and the more complex discounted cash flow valuations. There are also other types of valuation methods that are not relevant to what we do on a day-to-day, so we will focus on the three main ones." At what point in the process is valuation analysis generally performed? (01:12) Jeff: "It is often performed ahead of going to market. Many times, it is ahead of us doing due diligence. We might update these valuation analyses for our clients at various points throughout the process, and we do a gut check on whether we are ready to go to market." What is the value of hiring a sell-side financial advisor in determining the transaction price? (01:12) Jeff: "Ultimately, it is the market that sets the transaction price. The real value of hiring a financial advisor to help sell a business is to get the best price and terms, which is generally achieved through an auction process." What is a comparable transaction valuation? (02:43) Jeff: "It is what the market has offered up to companies that are comparable to the company being evaluated. For example, if a company sold at eight times EBITDA, it's logical to assume that another company that is very similar, or comparable, would trade at eight times EBITDA." What attributes of a target company will impact the comparable transaction multiple? (03:37) Jeff: "The multiple will depend on all sorts of attributes of the specific target company, whether it is growing faster or slower, whether the management team is better or worse, client concentration, or geographic concentration. All sorts of things influence the multiple that a buyer is willing to pay." What is comparable trading valuation, and how does it apply to middle market transactions? (04:17) Jeff: "This involves looking at where the comparable public companies are trading in the public markets. The comparable trading valuation metrics are a little more theoretical for the middle market transactions. It is a helpful metric and something used in negotiations with buyers, but there are all sorts of factors that drive the multiple relative to what you might expect to achieve in the private market." Gina: "Volatility in the public market will impact the valuation of public companies.  You do not see the same day to day volatility in a private transaction. For a middle market company, comparable trading valuation is less relevant because of the size differential." What is discounted cash flow valuation? (06:35) Jeff: "The discounted cash flow valuation is an analysis of the businesses' free cash flows. Then discount the cash flows at a certain discount rate to arrive at the net present value of all those cash flows. The biggest drivers of this analysis include the discount rate, which could be derived using the CAPM model, and a variety of other factors." What industries use revenue multiples? (09:37) Gina: "Pre-profitability companies use revenue multiples. It is often used in high growth type businesses such as software and biotech companies and recurring revenue companies. The revenue multiples can range depending on the industry." What is the rationale for using EBITDA multiples? (10:29) Gina: "EBITDA is a proxy for cash flow and normalizes income between various companies." How do you determine which multiple metrics to use? (11:58) Jeff: "There are many different metrics that buyers and sellers can focus on, and it is generally industry-specific. It is important for the seller and their advisor to focus on what are the right metrics for the seller's business." What are the multiple metrics applied to? (12:34) Gina: "There are a lot of different ways to look at what the metric is. Different methods are used in different industries. Some industries use GAAP accounting, and some industries use some special purpose accounting. There are also add-backs to EBITDA so that anything unusual and extraordinary can be added back to increase EBITDA and valuation." What is the significance of add-backs? (14:18) Jeff: "Add-backs help demonstrate what the company's earnings stream looks like going forward. It gives a sense of the pure earnings of the business." What are pro forma adjustments to EBITDA? (14:58) Gina: "It involves adjusting historical EBITDA for known future or recent arrangements, such as a decrease in expense or increase in operating efficiency. The adjusted EBITDA demonstrates how the business is going to operate going forward." What is synergy in an M&A transaction, and can the seller benefit? (17:13) Gina: "Synergy is when two companies combine, and instead of being one plus one equals two, one plus one equals three. That could be because of expense reductions or revenue enhancements. Buyers will benefit from synergies in the future. A competitive process will increase the likelihood that a seller will get paid for at least a portion of the synergies a buyer may achieve." How does customer concentration impact valuation? (19:26) Gina: "Customer concentration or any distribution channel concentration will typically reduce valuation. Customer concentration involves anything greater than 15%." How does the transaction process impact the price and term? (20:49) Jeff: "There are various factors that could lead to a potential buyer dropping out. Therefore, finding the greatest number of highly qualified buyers and working diligently through the process delivers the best price and term for sellers." What is the difference between enterprise value versus equity value? (21:47) Gina: "If a company has debt on the books, then the debt is subtracted from the enterprise value to get to the equity value." What is the ultimate answer to "What is my company worth?" (23:30) Gina: "Your company is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Our job is to create a competitive environment to yield the highest price and the best terms." Host Information Gina Cocking Gina Cocking serves as the Chief Executive Officer of Colonnade Advisors. She returned to Colonnade as a Managing Director in 2014. Gina began her career in investment banking at Kidder Peabody, was an analyst at Madison Dearborn Partners, and an associate at J.P. Morgan & Co. She was a Vice President at Colonnade Advisors from 1999 to 2003. She left Colonnade to gain operating experience as the Chief Financial Officer of Cobalt Finance, a specialty finance company. She went on to become the Chief Financial Officer of Healthcare Laundry Systems, a private equity-backed company for which she oversaw the successful sale to a strategic acquirer. Gina served as the Line of Business CFO – Consumer Banking and Lending at Discover Financial Services. Gina serves on the Board of Directors of CIB Marine Bancshares, Inc., a bank holding company based in Brookfield, Wisconsin, that operates banking offices in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin. Gina received her BA in Economics and an MBA from the University of Chicago. Additionally, Gina holds the Series 24, 28, 79, and 99 securities licenses. Jeff Guylay Jeff Guylay is a Managing Director of Colonnade Advisors. Prior to joining Colonnade in 2000, Jeff was an investment banker at J.P. Morgan in the firm's Mergers & Acquisitions and Fixed Income Capital Markets groups in New York. He also spent several years in J.P. Morgan's Chicago office. Jeff has over 20 years of M&A and investment banking experience and has served as lead execution partner on over 25 M&A and financing transactions at Colonnade. Jeff received an MBA from Northwestern University's Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a Master of Engineering Management from the University's McCormick School of Engineering. Jeff received a BA from Dartmouth College and a BE from Dartmouth's Thayer School of Engineering. Jeff holds the Series 7, 24, 63, and 79 securities licenses. Jeff serves as a director of the non-profit Nurture, an organization dedicated to enhancing the nutrition and wellness of children and families. About the Middle Market Mergers & Acquisitions Podcast Get the insiders' take on mergers and acquisitions. M&A investment bankers Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay of Colonnade Advisors discuss the technical aspects of and tactics used in middle market deals. This podcast offers actionable advice and strategies for selling your company and is aimed at owners of middle market companies in the financial services and business services sectors. Middle market companies are generally valued between $20 million and $500 million.

Jeff:Welcome to the VIP Home podcast where we talk about all things homeowners need to know. Today we're speaking with Pete and Megan from Powerhouse, which is a TV show produced with Alliant Energy. Welcome to you both.Caroline:Tell us a little bit about Powerhouse and how it started back in 1996. How did you guys get started?Pete:Well, thank you, Caroline and Jeff. It's great for Megan and myself to be with you guys today to talk about this. We're going to be coming up on 25 years for Powerhouse and Alliant Energy started this back in 1996, because it wanted really to educate its utility customers about the importance of energy conservation and safety, but also to help us save energy dollars. They started the Powerhouse program looking at energy efficiency. It's a 30 minute program that airs in six markets across the Alliant Energy service territory in the upper Midwest on Saturdays and Sundays. Megan and I are very fortunate to be hosting it for the past 24 years.Megan:I have a theater background. Pete is in broadcasting, so we kind of have different background experiences. The cool thing is, is that Pete and I have known each other almost all our lives. We grew up across the street from each other.Caroline:Wow. That is so awesome. No wonder why you guys work so well together.Pete:The number one question we get asked, because again, we know each other so well and play off of each other. They do think we're married. We're married, but not to each other. We're learning and that's the great thing about Powerhouse is that we're sharing the insight that we see in terms of helping customers be comfortable in their homes, be knowledgeable and save dollars and save energy and be more efficient when it comes to energy in the home.Megan:The interesting angle that Alliant has chosen to take it is that Pete and I are kind of speaking for the consumer. We're speaking for the customer. We ask the questions that our audience would want to hear. We don't present as though we know everything. We've learned a lot over the years through this process.Caroline:At VIP HomeLink, our goal is to make the homeowner's lives easier. Although we're homeowners, we don't know everything. That's why [inaudible 00:02:05] wonderful guests like yourselves is so wonderful for us and our bran and to just share knowledge of home ownership with everyone. We like to look into homeowner horror stories, sort of those stories that no one really wants to talk about, but maybe a few years down the road, you get a good laugh out of it or you're frightened to even think of that it might happen again. Do you guys have a story like that, that you could share with us?Pete:One of our first years here at the house that I live in, one of our segments was blowing in insulation up in the attic. Oftentimes, Megan and I, we have the do it yourself projects, and I was helping with our expert to blow in insulation up in my attic. I'm maybe not the most agile or gifted in terms of home projects and I stepped off one of the joists in the attic and put my foot through the ceiling in my house as I was blowing in insulation. I did get the insulation and my attic is much better insulated, but I had to repair the ceiling in one of the bedrooms because I was a goof and slipped off the joists and put my foot through the ceiling.Jeff:You pulled the Chevy Chase from Christmas vacation where he's up there [crosstalk 00:03:10] himself and he just....Pete:Absolutely. Yeah. I did that. That's a bit of my own horror story that I did on one of our shoots.Megan:The crew and I have gotten a lot of mileage out of that through the years. There's a, sometimes they put together a blooper reel and that's kind of fun. Maybe this is just a horror story to me, but they were trying to kind of figure out what the show was going to be and looking back, Pete and I did some things that I can't believe we did. Pete was in the shower for one episode. I was in a hot tub in a bathing suit for one episode.Jeff:Got to get those ratings. I mean, it's [crosstalk 00:03:50].Megan:Oh my gosh. To me, that's a horror story. Then there was another shoot that I remember where they shipped us off to Wisconsin for a catalog shoot. We had all these products that were for sale in helping you be more energy efficient. One section was all about grilling. Well, they do these things so far in advance. I think it was February in Wisconsin and Pete and I are wearing shorts and T-shirts and trying not to breathe so you couldn't see our breath. We were freezing. That was a horror story too.Caroline:I used to intern at a magazine. We did the reverse as well so we were doing Christmas in July and everyone was in [inaudible 00:04:30]. I remember all the models being like, "This is horrible." That is a horror story in my opinion because I [inaudible 00:04:37] serve chilli. No. No. Too much.Jeff:I actually do have a horror story. We bought a condo in Hoboken, fourth floor walkup. I decided, hey, I'm just going to replace the switch. How hard can that be? I watched YouTube videos. I thought I can do this. How hard can electrical work be really watch the video. I did it. I brought my wife in for the big reveal and I turned it on and then you just see like go up the wall and just like burn all the way up. I was like, "Oh my God." Yeah. From that point on, I was not allowed to do any DIY, especially electrical work. We had to do another chandelier in the dining room. I got my very smart, downstairs neighbor who had an engineering degree. He came in and he wired it all. I was just like, "Oh God." Horror stories abound when it comes to electrical work, I can only imagine.Caroline:I feel like that was such a good segue to start talking about how somebody could start their home energy efficiency journey.Pete:We talk about insulation and over the many years of Powerhouse, doing a home energy assessment, we've had professionals that come in and do it. You can also go around your own house and do an assessment. The whole thing about is, is keeping in the wintertime, keeping the warm air in your house and in the summertime, keeping the cool air in your house. Again, not allowing vice versa. Insulation is certainly a great place to start. Attic insulation is a great way to check and make sure you do have enough insulation above you because the warm air rises. If you don't have enough insulation in your attic, that's the first place. We always say, when you do that assessment, start there. Then your walls, making sure that you have enough insulation in the walls, which may be a little bit more difficult.Pete:Again, on Powerhouse, we have a the do it yourself projects, but we also, we'll bring in the experts and the true professionals. We are not the experts. We're sharing the insight and the knowledge. That's the fun part for us. I've learned so much about taking care of our home, being comfortable, energy efficiency. It's the insulation in the walls, making sure that you have enough there even around gaskets, your plugins, making sure that those, it really starts with the insulation in your attic, your walls and in the floors.Jeff:Installation, that sounds like a professional job. What about DIY? Are there simpler things that I can do that are just easy? I run to the hardware store and do myself.Pete:Yeah. You can spend maybe 50 to 75 to a hundred dollars caulking, weatherstripping, going around and checking windows because windows obviously are the biggest source where if you've got gaps in the framing, get a caulking tube and a caulking gun and seal around the windows, weather stripping on the floors. During the wintertime, keep the warm air in from getting outside. Those are very easy things that you can do yourself. We talk about that on Powerhouse. It seems like that's one of those shows every year that we get into, as we get into the winter season.Megan:Led light bulbs. That's newer technology, and those can make such a difference. We always encourage homeowners. It's a little bit more of an investment, but it really pays itself off. What you want to do is you want to take those few lights that you use most frequently, or that are hard to reach, those pain in the neck lights and replace those because they do last much, much longer.Jeff:The technology has gotten a lot better over the past decade I'd say. The one thing about led lights in the beginning was just the look of them. They had this like hospital quality to them, very I'm in an office and it starts flicking of that florescent. Nowadays, I mean, I replaced a lot of our lights, not all of them, but a lot of them with the Phillips hue so it's all smart connected. You can adjust the very, my wife has a very specific setting that she likes the kitchen on and it's called Mrs. White or whatever. It's very customizable and the quality of the light I feel has just completely changed over the years.Pete:The LEDs, the upfront costs are much more than the old incandescent bulbs, but LEDs and the thing that we, Megan and I, have stress on Powerhouse is again, how much longer they last in terms of years for a bulb. We often talk about putting LED bulbs, just start replacing the ones that you have to replace more often that are easy access. As you said, the design has gotten much more friendlier. The lighting's much better. LED bulbs, 95% of the energy goes into the lighting with LED bulbs, which is certainly much different than the old incandescent. Only 5% of a LED is going to energy usage. That's the big thing. It's longer lasting and much, much more energy efficient with LED bulbs.Jeff:We moved into the house and we had all ... all the ceilings were kind of the cheaper ... I don't know if they were LEDs, but they were a certain type of white that, like I said, it was like a hospital flicking on all the lights. I don't know if I'm light sensitive, but it was just like, they had to go. We put them all in a box and gave it back to the builder who redid the house and then made the investment in the smart LED bulbs. Because not only is it customizable, but you can put them on timers, you can reduce your energy consumption that way and make sure at the end of the day, they turn off all the lights and all the lights are off. You don't leave the one in the basement on by accident. I thought that was a really a plus, but downside, they are expensive.Caroline:Do lights on dimmers count, like if you dim your light, does that count as energy efficient? I mean, my fiance definitely has some bulbs that are the LED, but not all, but we have every one on a dimmer.Megan:My guess would be that it would be using less energy.Pete:I would think. The one thing that you do have to make sure that when you buy LEDs, that they do allow for dimming. I mean, you go to your hardware store, you do have to make sure that they are built for dimmers.Caroline:Can we touch a little bit on appliances and energy efficient appliances and how that affects your overall efficiency?Megan:When it comes to your appliances, there are a handful that you really need to maintain well and use appropriately because they use the bulk of your energy. That would be your refrigerator, your dishwasher, and your washer and dryer. Of course, maintenance is important on all three of those things. With your refrigerator, you want to keep the temperature at 40 degrees and the freezer at zero, that's going to be an energy efficient path and still get the job done. Also, I'm going to sound like your mother for a second, but you don't want to leave the doors open. Know what you want out of the refrigerator before you go in there. It takes a lot more energy then to re cool the unit if you stand there with the doors open. Don't forget about the vent and the coils down below the refrigerator. Every year, check that out and clean that out with your vacuum cleaner.Megan:Or if you have a pet, you'll want to do it more than once a year. Check that because that keeps the flow running efficiently. You also don't want to overcrowd your refrigerator. They're designed to basically be full, not jam packed because then the circulation doesn't work. When it comes to the dishwasher, there are a couple of things you can do. You can use the eco settings that are built right into the dishwashers that we buy today and only run it when it's full. Some people are in the habit of doing it every night, whether there are four cups in there or it's loaded and do wait until it's full because you're going to use not only less energy, but you're going to use less water. Another tip is to put it on the air-dry setting. That's going to save you energy too and rinse your dishes off.Megan:Even though the new dishwashers can sense how dirty your dishes are, but do yourself a favor and rinse them off because you're going to get a cleaner wash and it's going to require less energy to do that. To the point that I made about the dishwasher, you also want to take into account when it comes to your washer and dryer. Do full loads. Doing a couple shirts at a time is not going to save you any energy at all. Wait until you have an appropriate load and also use cold water. It'll get your clothes just as clean. Make sure that you clean out not only your lint catch, but also your dryer vent too. That can cause big problems. If you have anyone who is ill in your house, of course, you want to make sure that you put it on this sterilize setting.Pete:In normal times, we talk about washing with cold water, but if you do know that you've got some sick people in your home, in that instance, we do recommend washing with hot water during that time. Megan mentioned cleaning that lint filter in your dryer, but also the duct coming out of it. One of our viewers reached out to us after one of the shows we did and said that he got out his vac and cleaned up the vent coming out of his dryer. It was like a new dryer he said, because it actually dried the clothes much more efficiently. One of the common things that we talk about with your furnaces is changing that filter vent once a month. Most people don't. It's about making sure your furnace is running efficiently and if you've got a dirty filter, it's not going to run efficiently and you're going to use more energy and you're going to use more dollars to run that furnace.Pete:That's one of those things that I always stress. Keep track on your phone, hey it's time the first of the month to change my furnace filter. The other thing that we also recommend is having a service plan. Have your heating and cooling system checked once a year. That's a well worth it 50 to a hundred dollars service call, but to make sure that your furnace, that your air conditioner is running efficiently, again, we'll save over the years, save energy dollars for you and your home.Jeff:It's interesting you say that. VIP HomeLink is an app, and it's basically for people who they have a home, they want to stay on top of these things, but we all know it's easier said than done. You say, "Oh, I'm going to do this." Then life gets in the way. The app is there to actually send you reminders. You put the information in on exactly what your HVAC system is. You can log in your what filter you need, and it'll send you notifications every time you need to change the filter, every time you need it serviced. It'll actually keep you on point there, because like I said, it's one thing to say, "I'm going to do this." It's another thing to actually do it.Megan:A lot of times we tell our viewers, mark a day or think of a day on your calendar and do that monthly. Now, your app sounds luxurious, and I'll certainly look into that, but in a simple way, if you just think the first of the month, I'm going to check my filter.Pete:Probably the one thing that we've done over the years on Powerhouse is if people haven't, it's a programmable thermostat. I know on some of your other podcasts, you've had a smart home, the programmable thermostat. Maybe it's a Nest that you can control off your phone, which is so nice that you can set back at night, turn down that thermostat and save, turn it down 10 degrees. Over a year time and 10 hours, I think you can save something like 10% on your heating bill. There's really savings and again, that's what, here on Powerhouse, we're about. Saving energy, but also helping our customers and our consumers save energy dollars. Megan and I have put in more programmable thermostats over the years. That's another small investment. They can be as simple as maybe a 25 to a $50 investment. Again, you can go up and get Nest and have everything programmed off your iPhone, which is wonderful. That's significant savings in energy and energy dollars.Caroline:I know Ruth is a very smart home tech kind of guy.Jeff:I like the gadgets. When we moved in, that was the first thing I did was let's get the Nest thermostats. Let's get all the security stuff. Let's get all hooked up and you put eco mode on. It kind of just keeps it at a comfortable ... It's not blowing air on you, but Nest will remind me even when to change my HVAC filter, which I didn't know when I bought it. I mean, it's an amazing device.Pete:It really is. Again, I think that's one of the other things here on Powerhouse that Megan and I are very fortunate is to learn about the new technology all around our house. We've done shows on things in terms of reminders with a smart home, to change the filter, to setback your water heater. Some people might be away for a while and they can set back that. It is amazing the technology, the changes that we've seen over the past 24 years of Powerhouse. It all comes back again to helping that homeowner be more comfortable saving energy and saving energy dollars.Megan:Right now it's, we're approaching summer and here in the Midwest, it's really, really hot. That's another thing. If you can program that with your phone, program your air conditioning. You don't have to have it run all day with a programmable thermostat. You can set that to kick in before you get home from work, before you get back from vacation. One of the things that you can do to maintain your air conditioner is to clean it off. We had an episode where I got to do that, and I had no idea that I could do that myself. Of course, I had a professional walk me through it. You just go outside and you have your air conditioner, make sure that it's turned off at the electrical panel.Megan:Then you take your garden hose and you spray it all the debris off the outside and inside the compressor, spray the fins on the inside carefully, starting at the top down so you don't force any debris in there. That's something that you can do that's really, really simple. Another thing is to make sure that you've got airflow around your air conditioning compressor. A lot of people have landscaping and things like that because they want to hide it. Well make sure you keep it trimmed away so you have about a foot, at least a foot around there for circulation.Jeff:I thought I read that it's not a good idea to put a cover on an air conditioner because it can create mold problems or mildew or something like that. Dumb air conditioners, you can go and you can cover it with like an air conditioner cover, which they sell. I assume there's a need and a reason for that, but then I also read you don't want to cover it.Pete:You just got to make sure again, debris and everything's clear. To me that would be the benefit of having it covered, but then you also have to check to see if there's anything that may have crawled up or may have gotten on the fans. Just be aware of that.Jeff:Some resident chipmunks in there.Pete:Sure.Jeff:I did have a dryer vent [inaudible 00:18:54]. I think somebody moved the dryer and it popped out of the wall, but it's so big that we couldn't see behind it. You don't want to scratch the floors and all that. We only knew something was wrong because we'd run the dryer and then it would get really humid and the hallway started fogging up and it turned out that somebody must've moved it and it popped out off the wall. All the wet steam was basically not going where it should. It's just going into the room and we have a small room. That was an issue. We called the professional.Jeff:They came over and charged me four or five hundred bucks to really ... I mean, I was like, "Oh my God, is that really necessary? Can I not do this myself?" He had a whole thing, it goes all the way up to the roof, I guess. He had to put this thing together and clean the whole thing because I guess dryer vents are a big source of fires. There's something like 15,000 fires a year, the NFPA says are caused by dryer vents. It's a real problem. You got to stay up on top of it or else you can put your family at risk.Pete:I think that's a good point. Megan was mentioning cleaning the coils on your refrigerator. I mean, you don't need to do that, but once a year, but again, making sure that that vent is connected properly. That it is again, blowing that hot air and getting it out of your home. Making sure that the vent is clear there and then go on outside where that vent actually vents to the outside, making sure that's clean out there. I just last weekend went and checked mine. I wanted to make sure that I didn't have any issue, but you're right. A dryer vent fires, I hate to say, can be more common than you think, but a little bit of maintenance can help save from a fire. Also, just the overall, again, the efficiency of your dryer operating.Megan:Speaking of vents, I'm going to reverse the season, but if you have a gas fireplace, they vent outside. I know it's important to make sure that they are covered and that when you're not using it, the six months that you're not utilizing it, things can get in there. Animals can get in there. Debris, all of that kind of stuff so in reverse, that's something that you want to make sure that you check out and have a professional look at. Always. We always recommend a seasonal tune up on those appliances, on your air conditioner, as well as your fireplaces and your furnace. That's another vent issue, right?Jeff:I have a gas fireplace. That is definitely now on the top of my list because you know what? I was outside and I was trying to find the dryer vent exhaust, and the guy said it was on the roof. Then there's another vent. I was like, "What is this?" It's the gas fireplace vent. Now I know.Caroline:My parents had a horror story. They were using, I guess their fireplace once. I don't know. [inaudible 00:21:45] not really sure. Then one day there was this squirrel in the bedroom because I guess the fireplace vent wasn't closed all the way. It was just start of fall into winter. There was just a squirrel in the house. If that doesn't count as a horror story, I don't know what does.Jeff:A squirrel in the house counts as a horror story. I've had that in that apartment that I told you about in Hoboken. I had a squirrel. I was home and I walked into one room and my dogs are there and they just start going bananas. I go in the other room and the squirrel had come in the bathroom and walked into the bedroom and the dogs discovered that. It was just going around in a circle, just like on the ceiling. I literally just closed the door and then freaked out. Then I was like, "Okay, I got to do this. I'm not going to trap an animal right now at this point in time." I just opened the window and left. Then I came back like four hours later, just hoping it was gone. Thank God, it was gone, but not after peeing all over my head.Megan:I think I'd rather have a squirrel than bats.Pete:On Powerhouse, again, we've had episodes again, where chimney sweeps, the importance of making sure your chimney is clean and again, having a professional come out and clean your chimney. We've had episodes where they talked about the chimney sweep, talked about different animals that have been found and maybe have been dead there. That also takes me over to cleaning your ducts, your duct work in your house, occasionally is a good thing to do. If you have a lot of pets, it is worthwhile, but again, make sure your duct work is cleaned. It's about efficiency and making sure again, your appliances are operating efficiently. Just like we know with your car, you have an oil change and a checkup with your car. You need to have a checkup of your house system to making sure that it's operating properly and efficiently. Cleaning your ducts, D-U-C-T-S, and making sure that again, that it's functioning efficiently.Caroline:These are amazing tips. We were talking about outside home efficiency so can we just touch a little bit more kind of beyond the AC unit or whatever the real term is for that, and just kind of touch base on some other outdoor efficiencies that would help along your journey?Megan:Well, I think with landscaping, this goes back to the air conditioner, energy.gov says that you can save up to 50% of your energy if you shelter your air conditioner. Shade it with a bush, a tree, of course, distanced. If you think about it, we run more efficiently when we've got a little bit of shade when the heat is pouring down on us. Your air conditioner is no different. Call a professional, make sure that everything is operating smoothly and I will just reiterate what Pete said. The system of your house is designed to be efficient and all your appliances are designed to work well, but we have to do our part and take care of them as well.Pete:Plant that tree to shade your house, your overall house can make a difference. Just a little bit of shade on your house can cool the house so that the sun isn't beating down on it. That's another opportunity. Again, we've done that numerous times on Powerhouse. Come out and plant a tree and again, obviously again, think safety when you're going to plant a tree. Call to make sure you're not digging into a power line. Look up and make sure you're now also not going up into power lines above that might be up there. We always stress safety on any, do it yourself projects on Powerhouse.Caroline:People like Jeff Ruth here might take things into their own hands when they should be calling a pro.Jeff:Felled enough trees in my day that I know to call a pro.Megan:One thing that can make a real difference in your energy usage is how you plug in all of the things around your house. You think about all of the cell phone chargers that we have on the small end, but then we also have our home office. We have all kinds of little appliances, toasters, things like that, that we don't use all the time, but they are always drawing power. We call that phantom power. That phantom energy can really add up, up to 10% of your utility bill. That's huge. I have a prop for you. This is a smart strip. What this has is different plugs here that will remain on if necessary, like say your wifi router. You don't want that to go off. There's a designated place for those items, but for the things, video game systems, things like that, that you don't use all of the time, your DVD player, things like that you can put in here. Then it actually will sense when you're not using it and shut those things off.Caroline:That is an amazing product.Jeff:Yeah. We're going to definitely recommend because I need one. I'm going to find one, we're going to recommend it to the listeners and give some links out there so you can find the right one for you.Pete:With your ceiling fans during the summer, they are pushing the cool air down. You want to make sure it's spinning the right way to push down. In the winter months you want to pull the warmer air up. Remember when you're out of a room, I remind my family to turn off ceiling fans if you're not in the room.Jeff:Is that because money doesn't grow on trees?Caroline:You mentioned the right way. There's clearly a wrong way. Is the right way for cool air counterclockwise or clockwise or [crosstalk 00:27:25]?Pete:Well, again, making sure you can feel it when you turn it on. Is it pushing down? I mean, you can feel it pushing down. Make sure it's spinning that way. I'll let the listeners check themselves, okay?Caroline:Perfect. Perfect. Your website, discusses home energy assessments. What would that entail and how does a homeowner know that they're ready for such an assessment?Megan:On the Alliant Energy website, we offer an energy assessment and you enter all of your specific information in there, and it's really basically a checkup for your home. It offers recommendations of ways that you can improve and it's something that once you make those improvements, you can then watch your utility bill and see how things change after you do that. I would say every five years, you can revisit it too. If you've done any other home improvements, you can plug those in. It just kind of keeps things up to date. It's not unlike your app actually. You can keep all of that in one place as well.Jeff:We have a lot of things in common. I'm definitely excited to check out more about the Alliant Energy assessment. Can you tell us a little more about where to find that and how to, is it for just people in the service area or can anybody go and get tips there?Pete:Most utilities, again, I think around the country are offering that. I would always say to your listeners to check with your utilities for what kind of services they provide in terms of a home energy assessment. I think most energy companies today are trying to be good citizens of our Earth and are looking at ways to make sure your home is energy efficient and offering that. I would say check that. One of the things that we stress on Powerhouse is energy star rated appliances. When you're going out to look for new appliances, make sure they have that energy star on the product.Pete:Maybe you've got that second old sort of a beverage refrigerator or beer refrigerator that maybe is 20 years old, but it sure keeps those beverages cold. That's not always the best use of that old refrigerator because they really burn through energy. A fridge that's about 15, 18 years old, it might be time to look at a new refrigerator because they are so much more energy efficient here today than just 15, 20 years ago. You can save again, a lot of energy dollars that you're paying to keep those beverages cold.Megan:Another service that Alliant energy offers is a refrigerator recycling program. To Pete's point, you want to check with your utility company and see what services they offer, because you might be surprised.Caroline:Thank you for all these tips. I mean, I'm so enlightened. Knowledge is power they say.Megan:People are sheltering in place and their home a lot more. Their utility bills are creeping up because of that. With the use of the home office, kids playing video games, all kinds of things, homeschooling, using your computer more than you might have before. People are cooking a lot more. There are ways that you can use your kitchen a little bit more efficiently, and that is to scale down your appliances, especially as we're approaching summer. Grill outside. It's a common sense thing. Use your crock pot, a slow cooker, toaster oven, they use so much less energy than torquing up your oven.Megan:Also, you can scale down how you use your stove top as well. You want to make sure that you use your cookware appropriately by using the right pan size so you're not wasting energy by extra heat coming up. Also, put lids on things. That's going to speed up your cooking and it's going to use less energy too.Caroline:I know my fiance doesn't quite get the toaster oven versus the oven. I'm really trying to help him out there. It also got so warm that the toaster oven is, it seems a bit quicker, but it also doesn't make the whole place like it is outside.Jeff:I think one of the best wedding gifts that I ever got was the Breville toaster oven. It's like-Caroline:I just said that, for our wedding.Jeff:It's great. I mean, I use it every day.Megan:It's fast, quick, easy. You can watch it happen and it doesn't heat up the kitchen.Pete:Brilliant. Again, appreciate being able to, Caroline and Jeff, to talk with you guys and share tips with your listeners. As we like to say, always as we finish an episode of Powerhouse, with these tips and ideas and saving energy, we can make your house a power house.Megan:A powerhouse. Visit our website, Powerhousetv.com. There are loads of tips on there.Caroline:Thank you so much, Megan and Pete. It was so lovely to have you both. We hope that we can partner again soon. Our missions really align in that we really have a lot in common. We'd love to have you guys back on the show one day.Pete:Thank you.Megan:We would love it. Thank you.Jeff:Thanks guys. Have a good one.Caroline:Have a great day.Megan:Thanks. You too.Jeff:Bye.

How important is content marketing strategy to your e-commerce business? Crafting valuable content helps build brand trust with both existing and potential customers, allowing you to successfully grow your brand. Today we're talking all about content and smart ways to ramp up your strategy. Jeff Coyle is co-Founder and Chief Product Officer of MarketMuse. Coming from twenty years in the SEO and content strategy arena, Jeff's products use AI to accelerate content planning, creation, and optimization. With their spokes-of-a-wheel keyword approach, MarketMuse's content marketing strategy connects ideas, allowing clients to demonstrate product expertise. Episode Highlights: How content relates to growth and where to start assessing the need for your business. Strategies that help tell the story that you are trying to tell. How to gauge the success rate. Where the news dynamic fits into your content campaign. The breadth and depth of your content. Figuring out where the gaps are. When to hire an expert. How the Marketmuse suite of services help the writer. Using smart content to illustrate expertise. Why search volume is not the only strategy for content valuation. Some quick win strategies – aka one-page plans. Packages MM offers for different sized audiences. Tools and hacks Jeff recommends. Transcription: Mark: So there was a time early on in Quiet Light Brokerage when I was doing all of the Content Marketing for the firm and I was writing on average eight blog posts or articles per week averaging about 18,200 words in length. And I underestimated when I started on this kind of venture of can I do these eight to 10 per month; I underestimated how much work it was going to be and it was a lot of work because it's not just writing down your thoughts it's writing for the web and writing for SEO and understanding what do you write about next. It's amazing how quick the writer's block comes in. I know that you had a conversation with Jeff Coyle a mutual friend of ours from Rhodium and one of the founders of MarketMuse which is an awesome company; a great tool from an SEO and content marketing standpoint. You guys talked about everything content which is relevant to buyers, anyone looking to acquire a web-based business and grow it. I know it's been a huge part of our marketing plan. What are some of the things that you and Jeff talked about in this conversation? Chuck: It's quite great. I had a great conversation with Jeff and we're talking about if you've got a dollar spend where to spend it. Most people they're doing basic keyword research, they're looking for what's the keyword that's getting the most searches versus the keyword difficulty. And he takes it like way beyond that and they're looking at not just the specific keywords but what keywords are actually tied to other keywords that show that you're an expert in the topic. If I'm talking about like a specific thing but I fail to mention other words Google then thinks that I'm not an expert because anybody who's an expert would be using these other words or when you're just looking at keyword tools to look at the ones they're getting the most traffic you often miss the additional keywords that are in there. Mark: Right. And I know full disclosure I use MarketMuse with Quiet Light Brokerage and actually with my other company as well. I use their service and the general sales pitch is pretty simple. It's this idea of setting up pillar pages and having this kind of spokes on a wheel branch now so the example that they use I think in some of the marketing materials is if you're going to have a website on craft beer you should have a blog post on craft beer but you should also have an entire section on hops and an entire section on barley and malts and then even from there if you want to be all about hops and afford it to do a page on hops you should also have some satellite pages on imperial hops or these other types of varieties of hops and being able to have this kind of wheel with different spokes coming out. And you know what a bunch of SEO tools use this. Like I've been using Sight Bulb recently; a really cool software that diagrams out your site and the sort of hub sort of format. What MarketMuse does is they take a blog post and had topics so you say I want to focus on craft beer and they say okay if you want to really be known as an expert, make sure that you're talking about hops at least 10 or 15 times in this blog post. And make sure that you're also talking about different types of barley. And then you can use that and say well okay I'll talk about this in this blog post but what do I write on other blog post? It's made for me and I don't do a lot of the writing anymore but it makes the content creation process super easy; like the ideation part, I mean that's the hard part about all of this. How do you come up with new ideas on what you should write about? But I don't want people to think this is just a sales pitch for MarketMuse. It's a great piece of software, obviously, I believe in it from that standpoint. But I think from a buyer standpoint also from a seller standpoint having a solid content strategy is really really key. If you were to spend money; Chuck you've had a bunch of businesses in the past and I know you've used content, if you're going to spend your money somewhere for long term marketing dollar I'm kind of leading you to the answer here, where would you spend it? Would it be in the content marketing world or would it be PPC or what are the advantages in your opinion of this content marketing versus other types of marketing? Chuck: Yeah I mean it really depends I think on the type of business you have. Obviously, if you have a content-related business then you want to hop out as much quality content as you can. If you've got an e-commerce business there's different funnels and then buckets may be that you need to put your money in but you definitely need to be investing in content. Even on Amazon when you're thinking about like selling something on Amazon you go to some people's pages and the content is just horrible and it's so important. One of the things we didn't talk about but like when you're looking at Amazon you'll look at the questions people are asking and then answer those questions. So content is definitely important. We talked just a lot about what you should be writing about next. When you're looking at competitors sometimes you can actually see the direction they're going and then beat them and write a bunch of content. Actually, get in front of them because you look at their keyword list and you know the direction they're headed and you can actually get in front of them. Mark: Yeah for my money I think the two areas that are the most important for a marketing strategy at least long term return will be content marketing and CRO, conversion rate optimization. Those two things alone have such staying power where you invest now and you're going to benefit for years to come as opposed to PPC which is great because you can throttle PPCC; that's the reason people love it. You can throttle up and down. You can really find some gems and it's very immediate. But long term success I think is predicated on this content strategy frank that's something we've even bought a little bit at Quiet Light. I just got to give you a quick shot out Chuck because you are wearing a Quiet Light shirt. So for all those people that are watching on YouTube and I know it's not a ton of you that are watching on YouTube but those that are you can see that Chuck actually has a really cool shirt. I don't even have that shirt. Did you give me one? Chuck: I think I kind of bought Joe one but I didn't get you one so maybe I'll have to get you one as well. Mark: Okay, I think Brad gave me one and it was like enormous. I was swimming on the thing. Chuck: I think that's the one I have with Joe when I bought his it was too big for him so I have to get your size. Mark: Make sure you size it down and hey if we get a few extras of these maybe we can set up a contest for people that actually want a Quiet Light; I don't care what you do with it but it's kind of fun to give that away as a prize. Let's get into the episode. Content marketing is where I cut my teeth early in the Internet world. I love this topic. I think Jeff is one of the smartest people in the industry when it comes to content marketing [inaudible 00:07:02.0] good market views and this is definitely one to learn from. Chuck: Yeah absolutely and two things before we dive right into it; one they're giving a special discount. Again we're not trying to promote it. It's just a good product if you want it great but in the show notes, there's going to be a discount code to get a nice percentage off. And stay tuned to till the end of the video because I also asked Jeff for some additional tools that he likes to use. I always think it's fun to ask entrepreneurs what are some various tools that are unrelated to our discussion from what you're using so. Chuck: All right hi everybody Chuck Mullins here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today on the call we have Jeff Coyle the co-founder of MarketMuse and chief is it, product officer? Jeff: Yeah, Chief Product Officer, I manage the product data science and engineering teams as well as the marketing team at Marketing News. Chuck: Awesome. So I've known Jeff for a couple of years, we run in the same circles. I've been on the Internet world for quite a while. Jeff do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself? Jeff: Sure. I am as you mentioned the co-founder and chief product officer for MarketMuse. Prior to this, I've been in this space as Chuck mentioned for quite a long time; about 20 years as scary as that might sound in the search engine optimization content strategy game. I have generated like 50 million leads and not as an exaggeration for B2B technology primarily companies in the early part of my career. I worked as an early employee at a company called Knowledge Storm which sold to Tech Target which is also a great B2B publisher and an intent data and ABM platform for enterprise and mid-market B2B companies. I worked for them through their in-house team and in-house capabilities while I was there really focused on driving engaged users through content and content strategy. When I left Tech Target having already spoken with my co-founder about ways that we could grow MarketMuse I came on as a bit of a late co-founder and we've since grown the company to almost 50 people; really, really an amazing story about growth, building a new category about content strategy, what should you write next, what should you update or optimize next that's going to have the biggest impact on your business and everything that goes along with that from how do I assess my own authority, how do I understand where my gaps are, how do I know where my strengths are. And that's been the mission of our business is really to tell the story of I could spend a dollar on content; creating, optimizing, blah, blah, blah, tomorrow what should it be? And that's what MarketMuse is for; to tell that story. Chuck: Alright so kind of you alluded to it but today we'll get you on a call to talk about SEO and maybe more so how content is applicable to SEO. So maybe starting at the base when somebody either acquires a new site or maybe is looking at a site trying to think of how do I grow this site like where's my opportunity, what kind of analysis do you think somebody should start off with? Jeff: Well I think that traditionally the way that people have assessed sites for their strengths sometimes is only by looking at their current and existing rankings or their historical rankings. So it's a bit of you know kind of a tail wagging the dog assessment of where you're at, where you have been, but that as a starting point does provide some value as to where you are. It just doesn't tell typically the entire story about what it means to be about something. So when I'm looking at assessing a site for the merits of its; the collection of its content or its inventory of content, when I'm looking at is to say yes certainly I want to see performance. I want to look at also things that I might get out of my analytics package engagement. I have to understand the goals of the company the key performance indicators of the business. Am I driving those things? Can I peddle out of them? But divorcing those concepts for this point in discussion about conversion rate optimization and such from a search engine optimization or authority perspective I want to see where I've written great content so how much content have I created on core topics that I care about. When I do cover those topics how in-depth do I get and how successful does that; what kind of success does that yield when I write about a concept I care about when I get deep when I write high-quality content on concepts that I care about. Those two things really tell the story of your existing momentum on a concept. And so that when I'm assessing a site that's one thing I want to want to figure out is where do I have momentum? What concepts can I write about and I expect to be successful. And that's Stage 1. Chuck: Before we move on from that one how do we gauge that success rate; what do we think is successful, what are the indicators that say hey I'm already doing well here or I'm not doing well here? Jeff: Absolutely and that's the hardest part. And to run an effective content marketing team and a content production team for any company you've got to start at what are the key performance indicators? If I'm an e-commerce site the key metrics that I have is my average order size, it's my conversion rate close to a closed cart, it's my cart abandons, it's my total revenue. If I'm an affiliate site it might be an RPM metric and I have to be agnostic of and when I have agnostic a reference of affiliate and then I want specific combinations of affiliates because sometimes you can actually fake your books accidentally if you've got great affiliates on one page and not great affiliates on another. So it's really about I think engagement with affiliate opportunities in addition to revenue. You get a look at both of those things. If you are a publisher it's going to be RPM but also it's engagement with those pages. Because again how your ad server validates is do you have paid ads? So if you have a bunch of house ads and those have a different rate you want to always account for that because you might have great content this shooting off impressions engaged users clicks and such. So I always like to look at my current value per visit and then by the way from a B2B tech or something PI attorney; all these places are where MarketMuse does business so I like to kind of list a full fledge. I'm looking at my conversion to lead. I'm also looking at as far down the funnel as I can track and attribute. Every deal no matter what every situation you're looking at you always want to get it back to current value per visit and aspirational value per visit from a channel. In this case, let's say organic. So if I'm in a scenario I want to always be able to back that up. That's the only way I can truly define quantified value. And for MarketMuse obviously, that's the only way we can truly walk in the door and be confident in that ROI analysis. And that's why we've had to do this hundreds of times. When we talk to somebody it's to say how much do you really value each one of these visits? And if you can't answer that question it's okay, let's back into it, let's figure it out. How much is that truly about? Because then if you grow your traffic 20% you can say okay well that's worth this much to me. How much am I willing to invest in that? And that's how I define. So that's a long way of answering a short question that was actually really duped question. But the answer then is my quantified value metric. How much did I publish? How much did I update? How much do those act motions cost or those actions cost? And what was the efficiency rate on the content achieving some sort of baseline goal? I like to use recurring traffic from organic search as my goal. So I might get a boost from other channels and then it dies off. So I want recurring traffic at or above a particular baseline. So if I wrote 100 articles and 10 of them achieved my baseline of ongoing recurring traffic when I have 10 percent efficiency rate in that zone. If I updated 100 articles and 40 of them grew in traffic at or above a particular level. Then I've got a 40% efficiency rate on optimization. So when I talk about effectiveness of content I want to see how much should I publish, how much should I update and how often did that achieve my goals? I see ranges by the way just it scares the crap out of me sometimes, 1 to 2% of efficiency. Like I write 100 articles and only 2 get rankings. Quite often 40 and 45% at best practice that it's so wide. So you need to take stock today whomever you are and say how often did I write, how often did that yield recurring traffic; that's my efficiency rate. Am I in that 10 percent zone? I got some work to do. Am I above 20, 30, 40? I'm kicking butt. Now how do I take advantage of that? What do I do? No matter where you are there's always steps you can take to really maximize your earn. But it's a great question because so many people talk about ROI and they can't explain how they calculated. Chuck: Right. And it sounds like what you're saying is maybe like diving into your analytics but not looking at like how much traffic this page is doing but what is the segmented traffic; how much is coming from Google or Bing or whatever you're targeting. Maybe you're targeting link acquisition with an article then you got to figure out what's the value of a link that's coming in, how many did I get on this piece of content, and then maybe kind of summing up the value of all the different components. Like knowing what your KPIs are for the specific content. Jeff: Absolutely. And so the ways that I do that so it's manageable; there are ways where you can do that so it's manageable because [inaudible 00:16:38.2] I have thousands of pages or I published hundreds of pages how could I possibly do that? It's do it for the site level. Do it by site section; it's the way Google thinks about your site anyway. Do it by site section and then take your marquee pages and do a more thorough analysis of them. And marquee could mean your best pages that you feel are the best but they punch below their weight class, stuff that does really well, stuff that you invested a lot of money in. So build your plat; this is the stuff I'm going to do with deep dive but I'm also going to get my section level and sight levels metrics. An example might be that when Chuck writes an article he's on a 20% conversion rate to my effectiveness metric. But when Ron I don't know who Ron is but well just say Ron, when Ron writes an article he's 5%. So you're to get; you could do person level, you could do section level. You really want to get that slice and dice to know what's the thing that is causing success to happen or is it luck. A lot of sites a lot of B2B companies they rely on all of their authority for 5, 10 pages and they've got hundreds. Not only is it completely scary and unhealthy from a competitive space situation but if you're a Quiet Light listener it's an opportunity. I mean it's an opportunity to see a site that has a risk of ruin. It's an opportunity to see a site that has huge opportunity if they just publish the right content. So all of those things are what we're typically looking at. It's when I publish about Chevrolets it does real well when I publish about smart cars it doesn't. So when I get that site I'm shooting off about Ford and about gosh as my adjacent so I'm talking about; so it's really getting into when I get in how can I write about tangential or semantically related concepts, really expand my inventory in ways I know we'll have more success, and if I do want to cover other things. I think a reasonable expectation about investment need because I can't just go right kitty cats and crush it. But I know that if I cover what hubcaps should be on the PT Cruiser I can. And so those are the types of conceptual analysis, editorial content strategies I have been doing with years. Now you have data to support it. And that's where I think that the next phase of great Search Engine Optimization outcomes comes from this type of content strategy analysis for sure. Chuck: And one of the things I was reading the other day was just and I think everybody already knows this but they were talking about news websites and why don't news websites rank for everything. Like a news website gets all the links because everybody's linking to articles but yet they don't have the ability to rank for all topics, right? Certain news agencies actually get a lot more traffic for specific topics because that is maybe their topical relevance of their business. Jeff: Yeah. Oh, I mean news is so unique. The news algorithm has so many components and so from a Google news perspective and Google top stories there's components of real-time boosting. There's the concept of the fact that news articles appear in organic search. And they're coming from different channels of information. So they cross the chasm from just being news to being appropriate in search results. So then there's the dynamic of some of those items stay forever. Some of them are temporal and they're going to bounce out when that thing becomes less of a temporal story. We actually have a solution for that. MarketMuse allows you to analyze both serps and overlay analysis and it's called newsroom but that's neither here nor there. But the point of the message is what if you write news articles about this topic you care about but there's four to five aggressive publishers also publishing in that that have authority for news and you're just picking up the scraps. You can see that with solutions that are out there now. You're going to just see what those things are and then tracking that back to assessing performance. If I'm looking at my content items and I write 80 articles about some topic I get no news referrals and I get trickles in of organic and I'm writing it for the purposes of news, is that great? Let's say they get other KPIs, let's say they do gather links and they become powerful. But I'm not winning news, I'm not getting the organic search value that I think I should, how do I use that? How do I use the power that those pages are acquiring to my benefit? And most of the time when I see problematic content strategy; document the content strategy at a company they're not looking at their existing power pages. What content are they publishing that is gaining some value and how do we use that? Because I've got something that's a link magnet that every SEO in the world will go we need to do something with that but they don't necessarily know what that is. And a lot of times you see these link magnets and they're out there. They got a little bit of traffic upfront. They're not valuable enough to get recurrent traffic or it's not; it was a temporal staged story so they don't know what to do. And so weaving that article; weaving that item into some real good content strategy, that's the win. That's building my thought leadership, building my clusters of content, and hey this powerful battery. Plug the battery in here, plug the battery in here, and weave it in with internal link, weave it in with appropriate content, upgrade opportunities for conversions, there's so many things you can do to repurpose but when you get a winner use the winner. And we see that older people are scared to touch them because they're like it might break up. So these are the main dynamics that we run into with kind of the Assessment Authority and news as a special case. But it's so misunderstood what to do when you get a news winner. Because if you can predict that every time you publish a news story on Linux you're in the top three of Google top stories. Like, open that wallet every darn day. And I have clients that are in that scenario and we're like you must write about this every day and they cringe at first and I'm like here's the value that this produces; it's not just traffic. It's all the good stuff that comes as a result of that. It's also a long answer to a short question but I think that's usually a theme with me. Chuck: Alright, so number two you're about to say before I ask you a question? Jeff: Oh gosh I don't even remember what it was now. No, I'm just kidding. So it's kind of breadth and depth and then is the things that you see as being really high quality that you've written. These pillar pieces, the centers of the universe, the things that have acquired the KPI. How are those KPIs; they've acquired some metric that gives you that sense. So we've talked about how your existing momentum, well what are these cornerstone pieces, what are the center of the cluster pieces that exist and how are you using them today? Are you weaving them in? Are you using them to write then support pieces, etcetera? And how do you combine that with analysis of your target readership or user or buyer intent? So what's their purchase cycle; do you have coverage in the information phase, do you have coverage in the middle of funnel, do you have coverage late in the funnel, do you have post-purchase troubleshooting and adherence in ownership? So when you have a beacon of power really that's the time your mirror needs to be the most clear. I always say this. Like, stop tilting the mirror your way because you think you have success. The garbage in the game right now as I call it is people looking at search results and saying I need to write articles just like that search result item regardless of whether you want to argue differentiation it doesn't work. It only works if you have existing power to start to do things like that. What you have to do is just say with my site that I'm assessing, do I have coverage at all phases of the cycle that people would care about who are in this motion; I mean research, intent, decision, conversion, adherence, troubleshooting, whatever the metrics of the buy spying journey would be. And that comes to the why I say this way because the pragmatic approach is to say does this site truly represent my business as an authority and as an expert? What about this collection of pages or this content inventory tells a story that I actually am an expert? And so when you're looking at coverage, you're looking at momentum and what's been validated that I am an authority. But then it's also going to be like aspirationally if I truly were an expert what would I have covered? I can do that by doing competitive analysis or I can do that by doing semantic analysis and manual research. And so when you cross-reference; the punch line here is cross-reference the aspirational model against what you have and that's your gap analysis. So think about the outcomes there. I have gaps in this part of the bio journey. I have gaps, I have blind spots I don't ever cover these topics. I have blind spots here blah, blah, blah. I also have ranking gaps where I have striking distance keywords like I'm on page two that's that the SEO trick, right? Go tell them to update the pages where you're on page two and they'll go up a little and hey you did your job. So but if you weave that into this type of semantic analysis; this gap analysis, your content strategy becomes 2, 3, 10x more impactful overnight. And so compare that to keyword gap analysis, think about the outcomes. You get a word out of it. You get a word where you're ranking 12th and you think you should rank 5th. Well, now you know why. And then you know what you need to do. And that's the secret here. It's get yourself out of just keywords; get yourself into the content that's needed to plug the holes. Chuck: So we don't know what we don't know so how do we figure out what the gaps are? Are there tools you can recommend? How do we figure this out? Jeff: Yeah. Well I think that they're certainly on it and they're obviously not just the ones I present with MarketMuse but there are ways if you want to see. You want to be able to look at using your analytics, using any off the shelf Search Engine Optimization suite whether you are a higher-end person in a more enterprise or kind of using an [inaudible 00:27:29.2]. Looking at those pages; again all of your pages trying to organize them or you're looking at you don't want to buy those things, you've got analytics and you look at something that can crawl and analyze the structure of your site like a screening frog or a [inaudible 00:27:45.5] or a solution like that. Get a true understanding about your site and what it's about. What are the things where every time you publish it it's a winner or more of the time versus what's the stuff where you've been tilting at; aspirational goals. So looking at that or even looking at just traffic and revenue versions by section or by page type or by publish state because last year this was under this person's management this year this is under this person's management. Just a combination of this basic information from analytics and page-level data from a [inaudible 00:28:23.7] can get you at least started. And just to start thinking critically about your content inventory. A solution like the MarketMuse obviously is going to give you the sniper rifle to say go write this page, go fill this gap. But even if you if you're just looking to get kind of a basic understanding it can be easily put together to say gosh Chuck I don't know if we should publish any more articles about backgammon we're a chess site, it just hasn't extended. But when I write about you know particular defenses, we crush. Why don't we just lean into that? So you can make those types of decisions but then how do you get where we want to be a backgammon site. What are the ways that we can bridge the gap between chess and backgammon? How can we become more of an authority on strategic board games in general? So those are the types of questions that are out of this type of analysis, if you're real with yourself you stop publishing stuff that's not going to succeed. Try to figure out why it's not succeeding. That's where a person like a business like ours operates. But there's many out of an agency that knows the answer to these questions that can do that introspection that can do that analysis. But if you're analyzing your site I think it's truly to step back and say am I putting myself out there as an expert? Am I really showing it or was I chasing keywords? And it's always that oh man I haven't even thought about; I've just been looking up keywords, building lists, writing articles, keywords, lists, articles, keywords, lists, articles especially in the affiliate side not knocking always [inaudible 00:29:58.8] so much. It clearly comes out of a keyword list. And then I wrote the article some of them get linked together. Some of them don't. It's not leaving the web of somebody who actually knows their stuff. A great example of this; I've got uprise for every product in the world prices or reviews combination; bottom of funnel. That encompasses my contact strategy against this topic. It could have helped with that and then people wonder why they get hit when there's a quality change in the algorithm. It's because they're looking for that thing. They're looking for that stuff. You haven't told the story about buying that thing. Why are you the expert on pricing it? It doesn't make sense. And so that's the thing that; think about; get out of these search engine optimization shoes get into an editorial shoe. Hire an expert to say hey if you were writing an inventory of content about sound bafflers what would you cover; what are the things you need to know? And then cross-reference that against your stuff. Obviously, there's ways of doing both of those things taking technology like what we do. Chuck: So let's talk about that I know we don't want to like hardcore pitch your product but you have a great product that I think is a lot of value to a lot of people. So let's talk about like how your product can help and maybe even hit it as like these are the things that my product can do and some of the stuff people can do without the product so they could do it on their own but you're offering a service that makes it a lot easier. So let's talk about that. Jeff: So if I'm going to assess the value of a site; for example, if I want to see where there's areas of opportunity to create content or update content and be more successful. If I can get that hit list immediately and go execute on those plans; really move the needle quickly, that's a direct value of what one of the components of MarketMuse Suite. So MarketMuse Suite is a collection of; a combination of an automated content inventory and content auditing solution. We'll also take it to the next level and say after you build; after you say I want to create this page or update this page we'll build a comprehensive content brief for your writer. So it acts as a blueprint or an outline or a brief if you're familiar with what a brief looks like. And it tells a story so that the writer can be creative. So that the writer can research imagery; so the writer can research their sources and doesn't have to worry about is this thing going to have success after I hit publish. So many writers the anxiety they have; this is a huge pain point in the writing space is am I doing my keyword research correctly. Ask them. I mean that's the part I don't know. That's the part I really don't care about. I'm speaking from their standpoint. So take that mystery out of it. Take the SEO mystery out of it. Here's the outline we need you to follow. Be super creative. So we answer that question with that side of MarketMuse. We also have some point applications for doing competitive analysis so I can look at any search engine result page and understand who's got great content; high quality, who's got weak content, what are the gaps. And if I were going to put out true best in Class content on this specific intent, this specific topic what would it look like getting into the gritty details. Chuck: So what are some of those details? Jeff: Yeah. So what are the concepts that need to be included, what are the variants to consider, what are the questions to ask, what are the questions to answer, what are the internal linking; things you should do to internally link to other pages to tell the story that this isn't an orphan page on left field that actually weaves into your existing inventory and then grading your existing coverage and understanding how to interweave and to weave those things together. I have this great page; the one that you talked about, the news one, I want to make sure that it's linked. So all of those things we have point solutions so you can do a one-page analysis and get recommendations to improve it. You can get that one-page analysis and recommendations to make it equal to or better than your competitors every time and go head to head or against the whole field; questions and answers analysis, internal and external linking recommendations, and then we have for premium; one of our premium offerings is the newsroom solution specifically for Google News optimization. So basically the story is what should I write next, can you give me details as to how I would execute that so that you're getting me as close as you can to publishing? And then for all of my adjunct workflows; this specific analysis, this one-page analysis, we have applications to solve those specific goals to say okay why is Quiet Light Brokerage beating me for this topic? Is it because of quality; MarketMuse will tell you. Is it because of links and they have a worst page? Darn, they're more authoritative than me; what do I need to do? I need to go write a package of content. Tell me more of the story that I'm the expert because I don't have that off-page authority. So no matter where you sit it's giving you the advice as to what those next steps should be. And that's kind of the spirit of what we do. Chuck: So one of the examples I've heard you say before is like you're writing about a specific topic blue fuzzy widgets, everybody who writes about blue fuzzy widgets also includes pink monkeys and if you're not writing about pink monkeys then you clearly don't know about blue fuzzy widgets. You're not an expert. So maybe can you talk about that a little bit? Jeff: Sure. So our core technology is built on it. It's a topic modeling technology and it tells the story of what it means to be an expert on a concept. So it tells me by analyzing in some cases hundreds of thousands or millions of content items that people who know a lot about blue fuzzy widgets also know a lot about pink monkeys and so if you write about blue fuzzy widgets and you don't include pink monkeys you're not telling the story that you're an expert. So often in the market people have just looked at like the top 10 results to do this assessment. For so many reasons that I could get into there's a great article online called TFIDF is not the answer to your content and SEO problems and it goes into detail of each one of these logic challenges that exist. It's great for information retrieval. It's been around for 30 something years. Obviously, it's still being used. The challenge though is don't base your business content strategy and thousands of dollars of investment on that. And so what we were able to do is to say that but we're also then because we're analyzing so much data we're able to say that well guess what the top competitors aren't talking about orange donkeys and it's very relevant. That's a way for you to differentiate yourself. So you're covering the blue fuzzy widgets, your covering the pink monkeys but then you're going to differentiate yourself by also illustrating that you know all about those orange donkeys and that's what makes you special. And how does that drive back to true expertise? In this, we see constantly being successful with the best content strategies. They're writing about the table stakes content but they're also illustrating that they really know this stuff. And I always use more detailed examples but a cool one I always use for content marketing is a lot of people that write about content strategy don't talk about buyer personas. They don't talk about target audience. They don't talk about the roles on a content strategy team. Do you know why? Because they're chasing keywords. And if you can look at a search engine results page and go ooh, they're chasing keywords, there's my opportunity. Even if they're 9,000-word articles by HubSpot if you can find gaps in their game you can really take advantage of that and you can punch above your weight. And if you can pop a page that doesn't have as much traditional off-page authority link profile to build that beautiful cluster you can start ranking with undersized off-page pages and sections. And that's niche hunting. That's what the niche hunters talk about. That's what the UN fencers of the world; that's what they're really focusing on. How can I punch above my weight with undervalued off page sites? That's the way you get there; great content illustrates that you're an expert every time. Chuck: So we're thinking; traditional people when they're thinking about articles they're doing keyword research they're finding those low difficulty versus high search volume relative and then they're just going after that but what they're missing is just because people aren't searching for a specific word doesn't mean that it's not important. Jeff: You shouldn't have it in there. Chuck: Right. Jeff: Oh yeah. Chuck: Or specific words within content that you need to have to show you're in authority even though people; the average Joe may not be searching for that. Jeff: Exactly right. And that is the funniest thing about to watch the evolution in this market. When we first launched four years ago everyone when they would see a list of topics; this is the most interesting thing I'll say today, four years ago they used to look at that list and go why isn't it sorted by search point? And I said because that's irrelevant to what we're trying to do here. We're trying to tell you what it means to write that golden article to be an expert. Why does it matter what search volume is because you're so ingrained to use volume and PPC competition which that's another story for another day; crazy. Why don't do it? By the way, I'm not correlative to organic competition. I can get into that in a second but they're so ingrained; heavily so ingrained to use search volume as their North Star. They want everything to have search volume next to it so they can sort by it. So if we sort by that and then you discredit the stuff on the bottom, that's bananas. You're thinking about this from a content strategy perspective or from an expertise perspective. And that's what we see time and time again. Fun fact and I think you've heard me speak about this; it's totally exploitable. If you see competitors who clearly take topic lists and sorted by search volume you can; we usually call it chopping down a tree, you can chop down the tree. Every time it works because they have this strategy gap. You can predict what they're going to do. You can also chop down the tree in areas where they have blind spots. They will never fill them because they're using search point as a North Star. And so another way to say it is stop using that four square; that volume competition, you've all seen it. Alright, let's try to find those low competition high volume words. Sure those are great. Lean into those but that's not the whole picture of how you should write your content. Because the last thing I'll say about this is if you have no content at one stage of the purchase cycle and you think that you're not at risk with having content at another stage you've got another thing coming. It's going to catch up to you. Someone is going to fill that. Somebody is going to fill those intent gaps and crush you. It's just common. And we see it with publishers that have been resting on the laurels of their powerful content. They're just getting their tail handed to them by real content strategies every day. Chuck: So what are some quick wins you think people can have? Like okay, I have a let's say a site about; I don't know, let's just say a general content site, you pick the topic. What are some real quick wins I can get? Jeff: I like to call them one-page plans. So I'm going to find a page of interest. So something that's special about my site and maybe it's a small collection of pages. This is my page that's for some reason it's special. It's really long form, it's beautiful, it converts very well. Chuck: Are we defining special meaning like it's already getting traffic or I just think it's pretty? Jeff: I like it and it gets me some KPI that I think is legitimate and is giving me value. So it could be traffic already. It could be rankings that I am already getting; it ranks for lots of words. So that's a signal of comprehensiveness. A quick win could be to look at what that page is ranking for and pick out the words; this is using SEM Rush; using that to pick out the words in that list that the page doesn't actually satisfy the user intent for rewrite those pages; quickest win ever. So that one-page plan I rank this; I'll use a great example. Content Marketing Institute; I love that site, they have a wonderful page on LinkedIn profiles. It dominates LinkedIn profile marketing. They also rank for marketing profiles, not very good. And the site; the page just covers LinkedIn profiles. It doesn't cover generally marketing profiles. So they could beam their other zoom higher and now cover marketing profiles in general and write about other marketing profile presences as a cluster. All boats are going to rise. So you do that exercise, a quick win every time. You can find it. We call them content mismatches or unaddressed intent plants; always a win. You can always find one on your site because you've probably got pages that rank for hundreds of things. No one page can answer a hundred things beautifully. So when you go write that page people are like won't that cannibalize? No. I mean [inaudible 00:43:23.2]. Do I have to explain myself no? Chuck: So the key there is again you've got that one page; it's linking for a lot of words, you've got tons of words, you'll pick out the few that it's not ranking well for and then you'll link through that keyword to a new article that is specifically about that content? Jeff: Or expand it if it's a fit. If it's not a fit writing new but the key is it's not just that it's not ranking. I mean if it's not ranking for that's important but it could be ranking reasonably but not satisfying like user searches for that on Google and then they land on that page and like this sucks this isn't what I wanted. So if that intent mismatched so can you correct that and improve the page or do you need to do that in a new creation motion? So that is a tried and true technique. That's a recycle, recycle, recycle. Inside MarketMuse you just press a button and it tells you those plans which make life a lot easier obviously but you can do it. It's just that manual labor to use that one technique. And if you ask me for a quick one it's always a quick one. Look for that hundred word or more ranking page, find the word that this; read the page. You'd be surprised how many content strategists and CEOs don't actually read their sites; it's amazing. Read the page, know what value it has, and does this page get people to achieve that value. It can also be done on the back end. Andy Crestodina who works at Orbit Media; he is an expert in Google Analytics and content strategy. He wrote a book called Content Chemistry. Inside his analytics book; parts of the book, it shows you how to do this in Google Analytics by looking at exit rate and engagement gaps. So you can do it there or you can do it from keywords or any other ways but those are some quick ones. Look at your worst exit rates. So many people don't break those down by; they don't cross-reference those two things. So they've got a page, this thing is broken it's 90% in exit rate. Go back to the words that are driving the users to that page. What if all of them are out of alignment? You can just flash the content double engagement overnight. So there's so many wins that you can do with just a quick one-page plan analysis. I like to say pick one you like, get started, put few wins on the board, prove it out, and then decide is this something I want to get serious with and invest in technology that can support it. Chuck: I got you. Now when I started first looking at your product a couple of years ago and seeing kind of the wonderful amazing things you were doing, it was at a price point where I actually kind of like when high price points because it keeps; on really good things it keeps other people from being able to do it. But I guess you just launched a new price point for a self-service. Jeff: Yes. It's actually something we've been looking forward to doing. And we are a mid-market enterprise large publisher; people who have really invested in content that's traditionally been our target market. Chuck: Could you give an example of some big players that you work with? Jeff: Yeah sure. I'm trying to think of who's on this site. G2 Crowd is a customer and they're on there; we work with divisions of the Walmart Corporation, Home Depot, large e-commerce but also just great publishers. Business.com; love them so there's a lot of people who are publishing content. A lot of people I can't name and I wish I could. But if you type in MarketMuse case studies you can find a cool example from Tomorrow's Sleep on that one and how their site grew from 4,000 to 400,000 in a year with their agency that works with us. So that was always a big focus of ours. It was make sure that they can write content. Make sure that they can update content, that they've committed; they actually believe content can get them there because then life's going to be a lot easier for everybody. But we then also said let's look at the mirror. I'm always about looking in the mirror and look at the demand that we have. And so we really looked at who's coming in the front door saying we want to be MarketMuse customers. And right now having made that case internally or I just I'm not a profile of a customer that can spend tens or in some cases hundreds of thousands of dollars on software. And so what we did was we right-sized for a specific target market, we right-sized a self-serve offering. And there is also a trial experience that everyone who's listening can go to the site. Go to MarketMuse trial. Go to MarketMuse, see the trial and you'll get an experience with your data; we've actually set this up so you can use your site, optimize a page, create a content brief, update some existing content like I mentioned, get that content brief and then there's also a special workflow baked in there that'll amaze you that I'm not allowed to explain but you'll see it when you get there. But you can do a competitive analysis, you can update a page, you get a content brief; by the way, take that with you it's free and make that decision of whether you want to become a MarketMuse Pro customer which is our self-serve offering at 499 a month. Quiet Light Brokerage Podcast listeners have a promo which Chuck will include in his notes which gets you a discount there. Or if you're a larger team, if you have four writers, if you write 10, 15 articles a month it's going to make more sense for you to be in one of our other packages; a bronze, a silver, or a gold, or a higher offering. So it gives you an understanding about the value that we provide, the opportunity to buy, to see if that's a fit, or to immediately recognize oh gosh this is what I need for all of my content items. I need one of the larger offerings. So the experience we typically is that people find the right car on the lot. Or they begin using and saying oh wow I need more of this. I was successful with the first thing I did. I know this makes sense. Making your content higher quality, that's the fun part about being in Market Muse; it's you never look at it and you're like oh man I wish I hadn't made that page better. You're always on this ongoing quest to do a better job, write better content that resonates more with your audience. And that's what we do every day. Chuck: Awesome. So to wrap this up I always like to ask people could you give us a few random tools not really related to what we're talking about but just things you like to use in your daily work or just regular life. What are some of the hacks you may have? Jeff: Man, there's so many. I love this. So a couple that I use, when I had some personal time management issues I tried everything. I tried boards with; con bomb boards and everything. And one thing that helped me analyze where I was spending my time was called Tomecular and it looks like an eight-sided dice and you put stuff on it. And as you're working on stuff you move the dice around and it seems so; maybe it's because I like touching things like that but it really gave me an understanding about where I was spending my time and I fixed some stuff within MarketMuse like the business organizationally just from that information. So that's cool. I love Boomerang. I think it's a beautiful solution for making sure you don't forget stuff if you get a lot of e-mails. It's a really good productivity tool. Chuck: Before you move on from Boomerang I think Google now have something similar built-in where they have the… Jeff: They have don't let me forget this. Chuck: Yeah. It's like a little reminder you can set for different dates and it comes back in. Jeff: Yeah. Boomerang has some features that I'm so used to being able to set and forget things pause so I don't know if Google's ever going to pause Google so that's something that, but I like Boomerang. It's not that expensive. You do need to watch your SaaS subscriptions though. That's another story. Another one I love, love, love, love is Full Story. Full Story isn't; they keep going a little bit a little more expensive each time you look at them. Good for them. It's like having a DVR on every user that ever comes to your site. You can watch the experiences; obviously anonymized but you can watch their experiences, build pattern matching, look at segments, and really get an understanding about why people are doing things. I mean I think that that's really valuable. Chuck: It's kind of like what is it Crazy Egg? Jeff: It's similar to a Crazy Egg but it's more of like a heat map reporting. They've got this capability and a handful of other solutions that are out. I just think Full Story has this like really robust like I can go in and I can find users that went through this specific sequence and just watch all the sessions. I mean so many times. Just learn from that to really tell a story and it really is powerful when you are already doing a new multivariate testing to really catapult that into the next level. I mean if I told you what conversion rates we have you'd blow up. But yeah I mean you really have to think critically and fly the flag of your customers so that when you do get these solutions they don't just sit on the shelf. I mean my goal every day is to make sure that the next article that every one of my clients publish is more successful than it could have been without us. And I think that comes through in our online messaging. It's not just that we're this secret weapon of the elite agencies which I know for a while that's what we were. It's that if you use MarketMuse your stuff will do better more consistently and then I will be happy. And if it does not happen then I and our entire team will not be happy. And we hope that our messaging comes through and we couldn't do it without these other solutions that we work with Full Story, like Pendo; Pendo is a beautiful thing, and some other metrics, some other things we use to really dive deep into our customer experience. Chuck: Awesome well I appreciate you taking the time to talk with everybody today. Is there a way that people can reach out to you or the company? Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. So MarketMuse.com, Chuck's going to post a promo code that's for the MarketMuse Pro self-serve offering as a discount. You can email me directly Jeff@MarketMuse.com, Jeffrey_Coyle on Twitter. I'm pretty active. LinkedIn, please. I typically don't say no unless you've sent me a weirdo request that tells me in an unreal way that you like my profile and you'd love to connect. If it's clear that you bought or sold a website before in your life I'm probably going to connect with you and want to talk in any light. So yeah please reach out and go check it out. We have a lot of content. I have a lot of; this conversation is like this throughout the web that I think can really level up your game and give you the ability to assess deals quickly without just hunches. You got to go with your hunches but it's nice to have hunches and data. Chuck: Yeah for sure. And a quick pro tip from me, if you're trying to get somebody to accept your LinkedIn profile and they don't know who you are, write a message. Don't just send the like later. Personally, I feel like if I've LinkedIn with somebody and I'm connected then I'm somewhat vouching for them so I don't just accept random LinkedIns. Like, everybody, I've accepted for the most part are people I've actually met in person. But then we go to these conferences and somebody sent me a request and I don't remember them so it's like just send a little message with them, take the two seconds to write. Jeff: Yeah, and make it from the heart. We can smell of that. Come on. I think MarketMuse is cool. Oh really do you? I do too. So I guess we are connected I love the thing but you know. Chuck: There you go. All right well I appreciate your time and thank you, everybody, for taking the time to listen and see you soon. Links and Resources: MarketMuse MarketMuse coupon code (mentioned in the podcast): QLBMM Email Jeff Twitter LinkedIn

Show Notes Jeff: Welcome back to EMplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine's Emergency Medicine Practice. I'm Jeff Nusbaum and I'm back with Nachi Gupta. Nachi: For our regular listeners, you probably noticed a lapse in recent episodes as we pulled away from our usual monthly releases. Jeff: With both of us having increasing demands on our time -- myself with business school and the busiest 21 month old in the world and Nachi with yet another entrepreneurial endeavor on the horizon -- we decided that it would be best to pass the podcast on to another host, so EMplify can continue to create and deliver the high quality materials that you deserve. Nachi: We have obviously really enjoyed creating this podcast and working closely with EB Medicine to produce it. We are deeply appreciative of you, our listeners, and your wonderful feedback and comments over the years. Without you, there would be no point in us working so hard on this. Jeff: And keep the feedback coming as we hand the reins to Dr. Sam Ashoo as the new host of EMplify. Dr. Ashoo is an Emergency Physician based out of Tallahassee Florida with a keen interest in informatics who has been featured on several other podcasts you may have heard. We can't think of a better person to take over for EMplify. I'm sure you'll really like him and the content he produces. Well, with that, let's get started on our final scheduled episode of EMplify! Nachi: As we are just about to see one of the busiest travel days of the year, that would be the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, we thought there would be no better time to discuss the September 2019 issue of EMP: Assisting With Air Travel Medical Emergencies: Responsibilities and Pitfalls. Jeff: This was a fantastic issue, thanks to the hard work by Drs. DeLaney and Greene, both of the University of Alabama Birmingham School of Medicine. Thanks as well to the peer editors, Dr. Knight, and Dr. Hill of the University of Cincinnati. Nachi: And I think you have a bit of a disclosure for this month... Show More v Jeff: Well, this is a first! Finally at the point in my career where I can announce a disclosure, though it's more of a potential conflict of interest than an actual disclosure, but certainly still worth noting. I currently spend some of my time working for STAT-MD - which is an airline consultation service run by the Center for Emergency Medicine and UPMC. Though I'm certainly a junior member of the team, in some sense, I've responded nearly 500 inflight emergencies over the last two years. Nachi: And this definitely places you are in a particularly nice position to share some information with our listeners this month, and I'll have some questions scattered throughout the episode for you too. Jeff: Sounds great, so let's dive in, starting with what I think is the most important point - qualified, active, licensed, and sober providers should volunteer to assist in the event of a medical emergency rather than decline out of fear of medicolegal concerns. Nachi: I couldn't agree more, so let me reiterate, please trust the evidence. And volunteer to help should you hear the call. We'll get to this in a bit but there is little medicolegal concern and you owe it to the sick passenger to help. Jeff: So what are the chances you are called - well, they are not particularly high, but certainly not negligible either. In 2019, of the 4 billion passengers expected to fly, there will be an estimated 60,000 medical emergencies. That means there will be about 1 emergency per every 604 flights. Nachi: So, I fly about 4 times a month for work. At 4 times per month, over the next 12 years I can expect about one medical emergency. Already excited! Let's start with some physiology. Cabin pressurization varies, but is typically equivalent to an altitude of 8000 feet. Jeff: And this has a huge effect, in one study of healthy volunteers, this change in pressure resulted in a 4-10 point decrease in oxygen saturation and a 35 point drop in arterial oxygen partial pressure from 95 mm Hg to 60. Nachi: In another study of healthy volunteers on a long haul flight, this change caused 7% of passengers to report symptoms consistent with acute altitude illness. Jeff: Due to the principles of Boyle's law, decreased cabin pressure also causes expansion of gases within anatomical spaces in the body such as the eye, GI tract, sinuses, middle ear, etc. This expansion can potentially threaten surrounding structures. Nachi: So there must be guidelines for those recent post-op for flying - right? Jeff: There certainly are, but I don't think we need to get into the weeds on this one since nobody listening will likely be doing pre-flight screenings. I think one thing to remember here, is that though cabins are pressurized to several thousand feet, they CAN be pressurized even further if necessary. The airlines don't do this because it takes a tremendous quantity of fuel to do so, but if pressurization will defer a diversion, this option may peak their interest. Though an anecdote, the only time I've ever suggested it is on a flight from someone recent post-op eye surgery who went blind midflight. We pressurized the cabin from 8000 to 4000 and then finally to sea level and his vision returned. Pretty cool stuff. But getting back to the text, next we have air quality. Only 50% of inflight air is recirculated, all of the flow is compartmentalized between sections of rows, and all the air is run through a HEPA filter. The authors note that the air is actually comparable to that of an operating room. Nachi: Then why are people always getting sick after flying…? Jeff: Well it's hard to prove, but experts believe that most post flight respiratory illnesses are likely caused by exposure to fomites on high-risk surfaces of airplanes and in airports - like the trays on the seat back. Nachi: Interesting. Jeff: It's also worth noting that the air is quite dry, though this is unlikely to produce any clinically significant events. Most of the dehydration that occurs is more likely due to inadequate water intake and excess caffeine and alcohol consumption depending on the time of day. Nachi: Don't judge. Even though it may be 8 am, some of our night shift locums friends may prefer an airport cocktail after a long week away. Jeff: Oh I'm definitely not judging, facts only over here. Anyway, let's move on to a little epidemiology. Nachi: Syncope and cardiac events account for a large proportion of in-flight emergencies, with cardiac events accounting for the largest percentage of diversions. Jeff: Gi, endocrine and respiratory emergencies follow syncope and cardiac events, with specific percentages varying based on which study you look at. Nachi: Thankfully obstetric emergencies are relatively rare, accounting for less than 0.1% of all emergencies. Jeff: Trauma and substance abuse related complaints have also been reported, but represent only a small percentage of inflight emergencies. Nachi: I think that covers the main pathologies you may encounter. Next we should touch upon the actual responders. Physicians reportedly respond 44% of the time, followed by nurses at 20% and EMS providers at about 4%. Interestingly, despite physicians being there only 44% of the time, they were involved in the care for over 70% of diversions. Jeff: It might seem crazy, but that's definitely my experience. Many physicians, especially non-ED physicians are not familiar with caring for the acutely ill. Additionally, most physicians are very uncomfortable actually witnessing someone syncopize and then immediately checking vitals and finding the passenger to be bradycardic and hypotensive as is the case with many patients immediately after a vasovagal syncopal episode. I cannot tell you how many times we get called by pilots considering diversion based on a physician's request only to have the symptoms completely resolve in just 10 minutes. Be patient, this is a common in flight pathology. Nachi: Your experience has not failed you - data from your own group showed that 31% of cases resolved before arrival. Even in cases where EMS was requested, patients were only transported 37% of the time and of those, only 8% were actually admitted for further work up. Death is also a very rare phenomenon, occurring in only 0.3% of cases. Jeff: Alright, so let's move onto the actual logistics of responding. Each airline has its own protocols and policies with respect to medical responders - some will require credentials, others may not. In some instances, you may be the first responder, in others, the flight crew may have already been in contact with their ground based medical control. Nachi: In terms of supplies, the FAA requires an emergency medical kit and an AED on all commercial flights. These kits cannot be opened without direction from a medical professional on the ground or on board. Jeff: And while airlines may add additional drugs at their discretion, the FAA mandates certain supplies. You can remember these supplies by thinking of the 5 A's - asthma, allergy, altered mental status, ACS, and ACLS. The 5 As should help you remember the bronchodilators, epinephrine, antihistamine, dextrose, nitroglycerine, aspirin, and lidocaine as the one antiarrhythmic available. Of course, there are also gloves, an IV start kit, and a few other basic supplies. Nachi: AEDs are also required and have been since 2001 and amazingly when a shock was delivered in flight, 40% survived to hospital discharge with a good outcome. Jeff: Just as on the ground, shockable rhythms do wel...

Show Notes Jeff: Welcome back to EMplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine's Emergency Medicine Practice. I'm Jeff Nusbaum, and I'm back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta. This month, we're moving into uncharted territories for the podcast… we're talking psychiatry Nachi: Specifically, we'll be discussing Depressed and Suicidal Patients in the emergency department. Jeff: As a quick survey of our audience before we begin, how many of you routinely encounter co-morbid psychiatric conditions in your ED patients, especially depression? Nachi: That would certainly be all of our listeners! Jeff: And how many of you struggle to admit or transfer patients for a formal psychiatric eval? Show More v Nachi: Again, just about all of our listeners I'm sure! Jeff: And finally, how many of you wish there was a clearly outlined evidence-based approach to managing such patients to improve care and outcomes? Nachi: That would certainly be helpful. So now that we are all in agreement with just how necessary this episode is, let's dive in. Jeff: This month's issue was authored by Dr. Bernard Chang, Katherine Tezanos, Ilana Gratch and Dr. Christine Cha, who are all at Columbia University. Nachi: In addition, it was peer reviewed by Dr. Nicholas Schwartz of Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York and Dr. Scott Zeller of the university of California-Riverside. Jeff: Quite the team, from a variety of backgrounds. Nachi: And just to put this topic into perspective - annually, there are more than 12 million ED visits for substance abuse and mental health crises. This represents nearly 12.5% of all ED visits. Of note, among these visits, nearly 650,000 individuals are evaluated for suicide attempt. Jeff: Looking more in depth, of the mental health complaints we see daily, mood disorders are the most common, representing 43%, followed by anxiety disorders, 26%, and then alcohol related conditions at 23% Nachi: And as is often the case, these numbers are likely underestimates, as many psychiatric complaints, especially depression, often go unnoticed by the patients and providers alike. In one study of patients who presented with unexplained chest and somatic complaints, 23% met the criteria for a major depressive episode. Jeff: Sad, but terrifying, though I suppose it all makes this issue so much more valuable. Nachi: Before we get to the evidence and an evidence-based approach, let's start with some definitions. Jeff: Certainly a good place to start, but let me preface this with an important point - arriving at a specific psychiatric diagnosis in the ED is likely neither feasible nor realistic due to the obvious limitations, most namely, time - instead, you should focus on assessing and collecting information on the presenting symptoms and taking a comprehensive psychiatric and medical history. Nachi: According to DSM-5, to diagnose a major depressive disorder you must have 5 or more of the following: depressed mood, decreased interest or pleasure in most activities, body weight change, insomnia or hypersomnia, restlessness or slowing, fatigue, feelings of worthlessness or guilt, diminished ability to think or concentrate or indecisiveness, or finally recurrent thoughts of death and or suicide. In addition, at least 1 of the symptoms must be either a depressed mood or loss of interest. Jeff: These symptoms must last most of the day, nearly every day, for 2 weeks. Nachi: And these symptoms must cause clinically significant distress or impairment across multiple areas of functioning. Jeff: So those were criterion A and B. Criterion C, D, and E state that a MDD does not include factors from substance use or medical conditions, psychotic disorders, or manic episodes. Nachi: Once you've had the symptoms for 2 years with little interruption, you likely qualify for a persistent depressive disorder rather than a MDD. Jeff: And if your symptoms repeatedly co-occur around menses, this is more likely premenstrual dysphoric disorder. Nachi: Moving on to suicide and suicide related concepts. Suicidal ideation is the consideration or desire to kill oneself. Jeff: These can be active or passive thoughts, for example, “I don't want to be alive” vs “I want to kill myself.” Nachi: Other important terms include, the suicide plan, suicide attempt, suicide gesture and nonsuicidal self-injury. The plan typically includes the how, where, and when a person will carry out their attempt. Jeff: A suicide gesture is an action or statement that makes others believe that a person wants to kill him or herself, regardless of the actual plan. Nachi: I think that's good for definitions, let's discuss some more epidemiology. Based on 2005 data, the prevalence of 1 month MDD was 5% with a lifetime prevalence of major depression of 13%. Jeff: If those figures seem a bit high, another CDC study found that in a general population survey of a quarter million people between 2006-2008, 9% met the criteria for major depression. Pretty big numbers... Nachi: Sadly, though outpatient visits for depression and suicide related complaints have decreased over the years, while ED visits remain stable, implying that the ED is a critical entry point for depressed and suicidal patients. Jeff: It's important to also recognize at risk populations. In several studies, the prevalence of MDD is reported as being nearly twice as high in women as it is in men. Nachi: MDD is also much more common in younger adults, with a prevalence of about 20% in those under 65 and a prevalence of just 10% in those 65 and older. Jeff: Additionally, being never-married / widowed / or divorced, being black or hispanic, having poor social support, major life events, and have a history of substance abuse are all serious risk factors for depression. Nachi: In terms of suicidality, nearly half of depressed adults in one study felt that they wanted to die, with ⅓ having thought about suicide. Taking it one step further, somewhere between 14-31% of depressed adults have attempted suicide, and roughly 1 in 10 depressed adults ultimately die by suicide. Jeff: And while it seems crass to even mention the financial impact, the number is shocking - suicide has an estimated economic burden of $5.4 billion per year in the US. Nachi: That's an incredible amount and much more than I would have guessed. Jeff: In terms specific risk factors for suicide and suicide related complaints - white men over 80 have the highest rate of suicide death in the US, with 51.6 deaths per year per 100,000 individuals. Nachi: You snuck in an important word there - suicide DEATH. While old people die the most from suicide, younger adults attempt suicide more often. Jeff: Along similar lines, while women attempt suicide nearly 4 times more frequently than men, men are 3 times more likely to die by suicide, likely related to their respective choice of suicide methods. Nachi: Lesbian, gay, and bisexual men or women are another at risk population, with rates of suicidal ideations being nearly twice that of their heterosexual counterparts Jeff: Despite the litany of risk factors we just ran through, the strongest single predictor for suicide related outcomes is a prior history of suicidal ideation or attempt, with individuals who have made a previous attempt being nearly 6 times more likely to make another. Nachi: And lastly, those who have had symptoms severe enough to warrant psychiatric admission have an increased lifetime risk of suicide also at 8.6% vs 0.5% for the general population, in one study. Jeff: Alright, so that wraps up the background, let's move on to the actual evaluation. Nachi: When forming your differential, a crucial aspect is identifying potential secondary causes of depressive symptoms, as many depressive symptoms are driven by etiologies that require different management strategies and treatment. Be on the lookout for toxic-metabolic, infectious, neurologic disturbances, medication side effects, and recent medical events as the etiology for depressive episodes and suicidality. Jeff: Excellent point, which we'll reiterate a few times throughout the episode - always be on the lookout for medical causes of new psychiatric symptoms. Next, we have my favorite, prehospital care - when doing your scene assessment, look out for possible signs of overdose such as empty pill bottles lying around. It's also important to assess for the presence of firearms. Of course, this should not be done at the expense of acute medical stabilization. Nachi: And don't forget to consider transport directly to institutions with full psychiatric services, especially for those with active suicidal ideations. Jeff: Once in the ED - start by maximizing the patient's privacy. Always use a nonjudgmental approach and use open-ended questions. Nachi: If feasible, map the chronology of depressive symptoms and their impact on the patient's functional status. It's also important to elicit any psychiatric history, including prior hospitalizations. Jeff: Screening for suicidality is critical in all patients with depressive symptoms given the elevated risk in this population. Though not broadly adopted in many EDs, there are a number of screening tools to assist you in...

Show Notes Jeff: Welcome back to EMplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine's Emergency Medicine Practice. I'm Jeff Nusbaum, and I'm back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta. This month, after a few months of primarily medical topics, we're talking trauma, specifically Blunt Cardiac Injury: Emergency Department Diagnosis and Management. Nachi: With no gold standard diagnostic test and with complications ranging from simple ectopic beats to fulminant cardiac failure and death, this isn't an episode you'll want to miss. Jeff: Before we begin, let me give a quick shout out to our incredible group of authors from New York -- Dr. Eric Morley, Dr. Bryan English, and Dr. David Cohen of Stony Brook Medicine and Dr. William Paolo, residency program director at SUNY Upstate. I should also mention their peer reviewers Drs. Jennifer Maccagnano and Ashley Norse of the NY institute of technology college of osteopathic medicine and UF Health Jacksonville, respectively. Nachi: This month's team parsed through roughly 1200 articles as well as guidelines from the eastern association for surgery in trauma also known as EAST. Jeff: Clearly a large undertaking for a difficult topic to come up with solid evidence based recommendations. Nachi: For sure. Let's begin with some epidemiology, which is admittedly quite difficult without universally accepted diagnostic criteria. Jeff: As you likely know, despite advances in motor vehicle safety, trauma remains a leading cause of death for young adults. In the US alone, each year, there are about 900,000 cases of cardiac injury secondary to trauma. Most of these occur in the setting of vehicular trauma. Nachi: And keep in mind, that those injuries don't occur in isolation as 70-80% of patients with blunt cardiac injury sustain other injuries. This idea of concomitant trauma will be a major theme in today's episode. Jeff: It certainly will. But before we get there, we have some more definitions to review - cardiac concussion and contusion, both of which were defined in a 1989 study. In this study, cardiac concussion was defined as an elevated CKMB with a normal echo, while a cardiac contusion was defined as an elevated CKMB and abnormal echo. Nachi: Much to my surprise, though, abnormal echo and elevated ck-mb have not been shown to be predictive of adverse outcomes, but conduction abnormalities on ekgs have been predictive of development of serious dysrhythmia Jeff: More on complications in a bit, but first, returning to the idea of concomitant injuries, in one autopsy study of nearly 1600 patients with blunt trauma - cardiac injuries were reported in 11.9% of cases and contributed to the death of 45.2% of those patients. Nachi: Looking more broadly at the data, according to one retrospective review, blunt cardiac injury may carry a mortality of up to 44%. Jeff: That's scary high, though I guess not terribly surprising, given that we are discussing heart injuries due to major trauma... Nachi: The force may be direct or indirect, involve rapid deceleration, be bidirectional, compressive, concussive, or even involve a combination of these. In general, the right ventricle is the most frequently injured area due to the proximity to the chest wall. Jeff: Perfect, so that's enough background, let's talk differential. As you likely expected, the differential is broad and includes cardiovascular injuries, pulmonary injuries, and other mediastinal injuries like pneumomediastinum and esophageal injuries. Nachi: Among the most devastating injuries on the differential is cardiac wall rupture, which not surprisingly has an extremely high mortality rate. In terms of location of rupture, both ventricles are far more likely to rupture than the atria with the right atria being more likely to rupture than the left atria. Atrial ruptures are more survivable, whereas complete free wall rupture is nearly universally fatal. Jeff: Septal injuries are also on the ddx. Septal injuries occur immediately, either from direct impact or when the heart becomes compressed between the sternum and the spine. Delayed rupture can occur secondary to an inflammatory reaction. This is more likely in patients with a prior healed or repaired septal defects. Nachi: Valvular injuries, like septal injuries, are rare. Left sided valvular damage is more common and carries a higher mortality risk. In order, the aortic valve is more commonly injured followed by the mitral valve then tricuspid valve, and finally the pulmonic valve. Remember that valvular damage can be due to papillary muscle rupture or damage to the chordae tendineae. Consider valvular injury in any patient who appears to be in cardiogenic shock, has hypotension without obvious hemorrhage, or has pulmonary edema. Jeff: Next on the ddx are coronary artery injuries, which include lacerations, dissections, aneurysms, thrombosis, and even MI secondary to increased sympathetic activity and platelet activity after trauma. In one review, dissection was the most commonly uncovered pathology, occurring 71% of the time, followed by thrombosis, which occured only 7% of the time. The LAD is the most commonly injured artery followed by the RCA. Nachi: Pericardial injury, including pericarditis, effusion, tamponade, and rarely rupture, is also certainly on the differential. Jeff: In terms of dysrhythmias, sinus tachycardia is the most common dysrhythmia, with other rhythms, including PVC / PAC / and afib being found only 1-6% of the time. Nachi: And while conduction blocks are rare, a RBBB is the most commonly noted, followed by a 1st degree AVB. Jeff: Though also rare, commotio cordis deserves it's own section as its the second most common cause of death in athletes < 18 who are victims of blunt trauma. Though only studied in swine models, it's hypothesized that the impact to the chest wall during T-wave upstroke can precipitate v-fib. Nachi: Aortic root injuries usually occur at the insertion of the ligamentum arteriosum and isthmus. Such injuries typically result in aortic insufficiency. Jeff: And the last pathology on the differential requiring special attention is a myocardial contusion. Again, no standard definition exists, with some diagnostic criteria including simply chest pain and increasing cardiac enzymes, and others including cardiac dysfunction, ecg abnormalities, wall motion abnormalities, and an elevation of cardiac enzymes. Nachi: Certainly a pretty broad differential… before moving on to the work up, Jeff why don't you get us started with prehospital care? Jeff: Prehospital management should focus on rapid identification and stabilization of life threatening injuries with expeditious transport as longer prehospital times have been associated with increased mortality in trauma. Immediate transport to a Level I trauma center should be the highest priority for those with suspected blunt cardiac injury. Nachi: In terms of who specifically should be transporting the patient, a Cochrane review evaluated the utility of ALS vs BLS transport in trauma. There is reasonably good data to support BLS over ALS, even when controlling for trauma severity. Moreover, when airway management is needed, advanced airway techniques by ALS crews were associated with decreased odds of survival. Regardless of who is there, the message is the same: focus not on interventions, but instead on rapid transport. Jeff: And if it does happen to be an ALS transport crew, without delaying transport, pain management with fentanyl is both safe and reasonable and preferred over morphine. Post opiate hypotension in prehospital trauma patients is a rare but documented complication. Nachi: And if the prehospital team is lucky enough, or maybe unlucky enough, i don't know, to have a credentialed provider who can perform ultrasound for those suspected of having a blunt cardiac injury, the general prehospital data on ultrasound is sparse. As of now, it's difficult to conclude if prehospital US improves care for trauma patients. Jeff: Interestingly, the system I work in has prehospital physicians, who do carry US, but I can't think of a major trauma where ultrasound changed any of the decisions we made. Nachi: Right, and I think that just reinforces the main point here: there may be a role, we just don't have the data to support it at this time. Jeff: Great, let's move onto ED care, beginning with the H&P. Nachi: On history, make sure to elucidate if there is any chest pain, and if it's onset was before or after the traumatic event. In addition, make sure to ask about dyspnea, fatigue, palpitations, and lightheadedness. Jeff: And don't forget to get the crash details from the EMS crew before they depart! As a side note, for anyone taking oral boards in a few months, don't forget to ask the EMS crew for the details!!! Nachi: A definite must for oral boards and for your clinical practice. Jeff: In terms of the physical, tachycardia is the most common abnormality in blunt cardiac injury. In those with severe injury, you may note refractory hypotension secondary to cardiogenic shock. But don't be reassured by normal vitals, especially in the young, who may be compensating well despite being quite ill. Nachi: Fully undress the patient to appropriately inspect and percuss the chest wall - looking for signs of previous cardiac surgeries or pacemaker placement, as well as to auscultate for new murmurs which may be a sign of valvular injury. Jeff: Similarly, as concomitant injuries are common, inspect the abdomen, looking for ecchymosi...

Show Notes Jeff: Welcome back to EMplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine's Emergency Medicine Practice. I'm Jeff Nusbaum, and I'm back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta. This month, after a few months of primarily medical topics, we're talking trauma, specifically Blunt Cardiac Injury: Emergency Department Diagnosis and Management. Nachi: With no gold standard diagnostic test and with complications ranging from simple ectopic beats to fulminant cardiac failure and death, this isn't an episode you'll want to miss. Jeff: Before we begin, let me give a quick shout out to our incredible group of authors from New York -- Dr. Eric Morley, Dr. Bryan English, and Dr. David Cohen of Stony Brook Medicine and Dr. William Paolo, residency program director at SUNY Upstate. I should also mention their peer reviewers Drs. Jennifer Maccagnano and Ashley Norse of the NY institute of technology college of osteopathic medicine and UF Health Jacksonville, respectively. Nachi: This month's team parsed through roughly 1200 articles as well as guidelines from the eastern association for surgery in trauma also known as EAST. Jeff: Clearly a large undertaking for a difficult topic to come up with solid evidence based recommendations. Nachi: For sure. Let's begin with some epidemiology, which is admittedly quite difficult without universally accepted diagnostic criteria. Jeff: As you likely know, despite advances in motor vehicle safety, trauma remains a leading cause of death for young adults. In the US alone, each year, there are about 900,000 cases of cardiac injury secondary to trauma. Most of these occur in the setting of vehicular trauma. Nachi: And keep in mind, that those injuries don't occur in isolation as 70-80% of patients with blunt cardiac injury sustain other injuries. This idea of concomitant trauma will be a major theme in today's episode. Jeff: It certainly will. But before we get there, we have some more definitions to review - cardiac concussion and contusion, both of which were defined in a 1989 study. In this study, cardiac concussion was defined as an elevated CKMB with a normal echo, while a cardiac contusion was defined as an elevated CKMB and abnormal echo. Nachi: Much to my surprise, though, abnormal echo and elevated ck-mb have not been shown to be predictive of adverse outcomes, but conduction abnormalities on ekgs have been predictive of development of serious dysrhythmia Jeff: More on complications in a bit, but first, returning to the idea of concomitant injuries, in one autopsy study of nearly 1600 patients with blunt trauma - cardiac injuries were reported in 11.9% of cases and contributed to the death of 45.2% of those patients. Nachi: Looking more broadly at the data, according to one retrospective review, blunt cardiac injury may carry a mortality of up to 44%. Jeff: That's scary high, though I guess not terribly surprising, given that we are discussing heart injuries due to major trauma... Nachi: The force may be direct or indirect, involve rapid deceleration, be bidirectional, compressive, concussive, or even involve a combination of these. In general, the right ventricle is the most frequently injured area due to the proximity to the chest wall. Jeff: Perfect, so that's enough background, let's talk differential. As you likely expected, the differential is broad and includes cardiovascular injuries, pulmonary injuries, and other mediastinal injuries like pneumomediastinum and esophageal injuries. Nachi: Among the most devastating injuries on the differential is cardiac wall rupture, which not surprisingly has an extremely high mortality rate. In terms of location of rupture, both ventricles are far more likely to rupture than the atria with the right atria being more likely to rupture than the left atria. Atrial ruptures are more survivable, whereas complete free wall rupture is nearly universally fatal. Jeff: Septal injuries are also on the ddx. Septal injuries occur immediately,

Shownotes Jeff: Welcome back to EMplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine's Emergency Medicine Practice. I'm Jeff Nusbaum, and I'm back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta. This month, we're tackling an incredibly important topic - evaluation and management of life threatening headaches in the Emergency Department. Nachi: Fear not, this will not simply be “who needs a head CT episode”; we'll cover much more than that. Listen closely as this is an important topic, with huge consequences for mismanagement. Jeff: Absolutely. As some quick background - headaches account for 3% of all ED visits in the US, with 90% being benign primary headaches and less than 10% being secondary to other causes like vascular, infectious, or traumatic etiologies. It's within these later 10% that we are looking for the red flag signs to identify the potentially life-threatening headaches. Nachi: And to do so, Dr. David Zodda and Dr. Amit Gupta, PD and APD at Hackensack University Medical and Trauma Center, and their colleague Dr. Gabrielle Procopio, a PharmD, have done a fantastic job parsing through the literature, which included over 500 abstracts, 89 full text articles, guidelines from ACEP and the American Academy of Neurology, as well as canadian and european neurology guidelines, to summarize the best evidence based recommendations for you all. Jeff: We would be remiss to not also mention Dr. Mert Erogul of Maimonides Medical Center and Dr. Steven Godwin, Chair of Emergency Medicine at the University of Florida College of Medicine. Nachi: Alright, so let's get started with some definitions and pathophysiology. The international classification of headache disorders 3, or ICHD-3, classifies headaches into primary, secondary, and cranial neuropathies. Jeff: Primary headache disorders include migraine, tension, and cluster headaches. Secondary headaches include those secondary to vascular disorders, traumatic disorders, and disorders in hemostasis. These are the potentially life threatening headaches that can have a mortality has high as 50%. Nachi: And the final category includes cranial neuropathies, such as trigeminal neuralgia. Jeff: And I think we can safely say that that wraps up our discussion in this episode on cranial neuropathies, moving on…. Nachi: Headaches result from traction to or irritation of the meninges and blood vessels, which are the only innervated central nervous system structures. Activation of specific nerve ganglion complexes by neuropeptides like -- substance P and calcitonin gene-related peptide -- are thought to contribute to head pain. Jeff: It is important to note that all headache pain shares common pain pathways, thus response to pain medications does not exclude potential life threatening secondary causes of headache. This led to the ACEP guideline which states just that.. Nachi: I feel like that deserves ding sound as it's a critically important point. To repeat, just because a pain medication relieves a headache, that does not exclude dangerous secondary causes! Jeff: And what are the life threatening headaches? Life-threatening headaches include subarachnoid hemorrhage, cervical Artery Dissection, which includes both vertebral Artery Dissection and carotid artery dissection, cerebral Venous Thrombosis, idiopathic intracranial hypertension, giant cell arteritis, and posterior reversible encephalopathy syndrome, or PRES. Nachi: Slow down for a second and let's not skip over your favorite section.. Let's talk pre hospital care for headache patients. Jeff: Good call! Pre-hospital care is fairly straightforward and includes a primary survey, conducting a focused neurologic exam, and assessing for red flag signs, which include focal neurologic deficits, sudden onset headache, new headache in those over 50, neck pain or stiffness, changes in visual Acuity, fever or immunocompromised State, history of malignancy, pregnancy or postpartum status, syncope, and seizure. That's quite a list.

Shownotes Jeff: Welcome back to EMplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine's Emergency Medicine Practice. I'm Jeff Nusbaum, and I'm back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta. This month, we're tackling an incredibly important topic - evaluation and management of life threatening headaches in the Emergency Department. Nachi: Fear not, this will not simply be “who needs a head CT episode”; we'll cover much more than that. Listen closely as this is an important topic, with huge consequences for mismanagement. Jeff: Absolutely. As some quick background - headaches account for 3% of all ED visits in the US, with 90% being benign primary headaches and less than 10% being secondary to other causes like vascular, infectious, or traumatic etiologies. It's within these later 10% that we are looking for the red flag signs to identify the potentially life-threatening headaches. Nachi: And to do so, Dr. David Zodda and Dr. Amit Gupta, PD and APD at Hackensack University Medical and Trauma Center, and their colleague Dr. Gabrielle Procopio, a PharmD, have done a fantastic job parsing through the literature, which included over 500 abstracts, 89 full text articles, guidelines from ACEP and the American Academy of Neurology, as well as canadian and european neurology guidelines, to summarize the best evidence based recommendations for you all. Jeff: We would be remiss to not also mention Dr. Mert Erogul of Maimonides Medical Center and Dr. Steven Godwin, Chair of Emergency Medicine at the University of Florida College of Medicine. Nachi: Alright, so let's get started with some definitions and pathophysiology. The international classification of headache disorders 3, or ICHD-3, classifies headaches into primary, secondary, and cranial neuropathies. Jeff: Primary headache disorders include migraine, tension, and cluster headaches. Secondary headaches include those secondary to vascular disorders, traumatic disorders, and disorders in hemostasis. These are the potentially life threatening headaches that can have a mortality has high as 50%. Nachi: And the final category includes cranial neuropathies, such as trigeminal neuralgia. Jeff: And I think we can safely say that that wraps up our discussion in this episode on cranial neuropathies, moving on…. Nachi: Headaches result from traction to or irritation of the meninges and blood vessels, which are the only innervated central nervous system structures. Activation of specific nerve ganglion complexes by neuropeptides like -- substance P and calcitonin gene-related peptide -- are thought to contribute to head pain. Jeff: It is important to note that all headache pain shares common pain pathways, thus response to pain medications does not exclude potential life threatening secondary causes of headache. This led to the ACEP guideline which states just that.. Nachi: I feel like that deserves ding sound as it's a critically important point. To repeat, just because a pain medication relieves a headache, that does not exclude dangerous secondary causes! Jeff: And what are the life threatening headaches? Life-threatening headaches include subarachnoid hemorrhage, cervical Artery Dissection, which includes both vertebral Artery Dissection and carotid artery dissection, cerebral Venous Thrombosis, idiopathic intracranial hypertension, giant cell arteritis, and posterior reversible encephalopathy syndrome, or PRES. Nachi: Slow down for a second and let's not skip over your favorite section.. Let's talk pre hospital care for headache patients. Jeff: Good call! Pre-hospital care is fairly straightforward and includes a primary survey, conducting a focused neurologic exam, and assessing for red flag signs, which include focal neurologic deficits, sudden onset headache, new headache in those over 50, neck pain or stiffness, changes in visual Acuity, fever or immunocompromised State, history of malignancy, pregnancy or postpartum status, syncope, and seizure. That's quite a list. For a visual reference, see Table 3 in the print issue. Nachi: And patients with neurologic deficits or severe sudden-onset headaches, should be transported immediately to the nearest available stroke center. Tylenol should be offered for pain management. Avoid opioids and nsaids. Jeff: Upon arrival to the emergency department, history and physical should include your standard vitals, testing neurologic function, cranial nerve testing, head and neck exam, as well as a fundoscopic exam. As was the case for your pre-hospital colleagues, you should also assess for red flag signs for life-threatening headaches. Check out tables 2, 3, and 4 for more details here. Nachi: With respect to Vital Signs, in the setting of an acute headache, severe hypertension should prompt a search for signs of end-organ damage such as hypertensive encephalopathy, intracranial Hemorrhage, PRES, and preeclampsia in pregnant women. Additionally, fever, and especially fever and neck stiffness, should raise concern for CNS infection. Jeff: For your neurologic examination, make sure to include assessments of motor strength, coordination, reflexes, sensory function, and gait. Don't forget that lesions involving the anterior circulation, such as dysarthria, cognitive impairment, and Horner syndrome may be indicative of a carotid artery dissection, whereas dizziness, vision changes, and limb weakness may be due to a vertebral Artery Dissection. Nachi: And for cranial nerve testing - pay particular attention to cranial nerves 2, 3 and 6. For cranial nerve 2 - look out for an afferent pupillary defect, or a marcus-gunn pupil, which is seen in optic neuritis, giant cell artertitis, and central retinal artery occlusion. For CN3, oculomotor nerve palsies raise concern for a posterior communicating aneurysm and SAH. And lastly, CN6 palsies, which often presents with diplopia on lateral gaze , are often seen with intracranial idiopathic hypertension and cerebral venous thrombosis, in addition to impaired visual acuity, visual field defects, and tunnel vision. Jeff: For the head and neck exam, remember that a partial horner syndrome, with miosis and ptosis without anhidrosis, may be indicative of a cervical artery dissection. Unfortunately, if the patient presents acutely, their only complaint may be pain, as the neurologic sequelae may take days to develop. Nachi: Additionally, with respect to the head and neck exam, evaluate the patient for tenderness and beading along the temporal artery. Jeff: One review noted that temporal artery beading actually had the highest likelihood ratio for GCA, 4.6, whereas temporal artery tenderness only had a LR of 2.6 Nachi: And the last physical exam maneuver you should ideally perform is a fundoscopic exam for papilledema, which is often seen in IIH, malignant hypertension, and CVT. Jeff: Perfect so that rounds out the physical, next we have diagnostic studies. Most importantly, routine lab testing is typically of low utility in aiding in the diagnosis of headache. Nachi: Even ESR and CRP in the setting of possible giant cell arteritis have poor sensitivity and specificity to diagnose it. So even if the ESR and CRP are negative, if the suspicion for GCA is high enough, it should be treated and you should get a biopsy. Jeff: Do consider adding on a venous or arterial carboxyhemoglobin in the right clinical scenario, as CO poisoning represents an important cause of headache you wouldn't want to miss. This is especially important at this time of year when heating systems are working overtime here in the states. Nachi: And hopefully you have a co-oximeter, so you can even check this non-invasively. Jeff: Interestingly, there may be a unique role for a d-dimer here as well. Several small studies have used the d-dimer to risk stratify patients with possible CVT. In one study a d-dimer level < 500 mcg/L had a 97% sensitivity and a negative predictive value of 99% - not bad! Nachi: Pretty impressive performance characteristics. I think that about wraps up lab work. Let's talk radiology. Jeff: Though low yield, CT utilization is estimated at 2.5-10% of non-traumatic headaches. A non-con CT should be reserved for those with suspicion for an intracranial hemorrhage, while a contrast CT would be required in those in whom there is concern for an infectious process or space occupying lesion. Nachi: CT angio or MRI should be used in cases of possible cervical artery dissection. MRI also is the neuroimaging of choice for PRES, which is more sensitive for cerebral edema than CT. Jeff: Similarly, MRV is recommended in those with a concerning story for CVT. Nachi: To help guide your emergent neuroimaging utilization, ACEP suggests imaging in those with headache and an abnormal finding on neuro exam, those with new and sudden-onset severe headache, HIV positive patients with new headache, and those over 50 with a new headache. Jeff: With that in mind, let's dive a bit deeper into the use of CT for SAH, a topic which doesn't get a ding sound, but is certainly critically important. Recent literature have found that a CT within 6 hours of symptom onset has a sensitivity and specificity and negative predictive value of 100%. In addition, one 2016 study demonstrated a LR of 0.01 in those with a negative HCT within 6 hours. These are really important results because that means SAH is essentially ruled out with a negative study. Nachi: Unfortunately, the 2008 ACEP guideline and 2012 AHA guidelines still recommend a lumbar puncture in those being worked up for SAH. Luckily the ACEP guideline is currently being revised so your decision to forego the LP with a negative HCT in the fi

  Jeff: Welcome back to Emplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine's Emergency Medicine Practice. I'm Jeff Nusbaum, and I'm back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta. This month, we're talking about a topic… Nachi: … woah wait, slow down for a minute, before we begin this month's episode – we should take a quick pause to wish all of our listeners a happy new year! Thanks for your regular listenership and feedback. Jeff: And we're actually hitting the two year mark since we started this podcast. At 25 episodes now, this is sort of our silver anniversary. Nachi: We have covered a ton of topics in emergency medicine so far, and we are looking forward to reviewing a lot more evidence based medicine with you all going forward. Jeff: With that, let's get into the first episode of 2019 – the topic this month is first trimester pregnancy emergencies: recognition and management. Nachi: This month's issue was authored by Dr. Ryan Pedigo, you may remember him from the June 2017 episode on dental emergencies, though he is perhaps better known as the director of undergraduate medical education at Harbor-UCLA Medical center. In addition, this issue was peer reviewed by Dr. Jennifer Beck-Esmay, assistant residency director at Mount Sinai St. Luke's, and Dr. Taku Taira, the associate director of undergraduate medical education and associate clerkship director at LA County and USC department of Emergency Medicine. Jeff: For this review, Dr. Pedigo had to review a large body of literature, including thousands of articles, guidelines from the American college of obstetricians and gynecologists or ACOG, evidence based Practice bulletins, ACOG committee opinions, guidelines from the American college of radiology, the infectious diseases society of America, clinical policies from the American college of emergency physicians, and finally a series of reviews in the Cochrane database. Nachi: There is a wealth of literature on this topic and Dr. Pedigo comments that the relevant literature is overall “very good.” This may be the first article in many months for which there is an overall very good quality of literature. Jeff: It's great to know that there is good literature on this topic. It's incredibly important as we are not dealing with a single life here, as we usually do... we are quite literally dealing with potentially two lives as the fetus moves towards viability. With opportunities to improve outcomes for both the fetus and the mother, I'm confident that this episode will be worth your time. Nachi: Oh, and speaking of being worth your time…. Don't forget that if you're listening to this episode, you can claim your CME credit. Remember, the indicates an answer to one of the CME questions so make sure to keep the issue handy. Jeff: Let's get started with some background. First trimester emergencies are not terribly uncommon in pregnancy. One study reported 85% experience nausea and vomiting. Luckily only 3% of these progressed to hyperemesis gravidarum. In addition, somewhere between 7-27% experience vaginal bleeding or miscarriage. Only 2% of these will be afflicted with an ectopic pregnancy. Overall, the maternal death rate is about 17 per 100,000 with huge racial-ethnic disparities. Nachi: And vaginal bleeding in pregnancy occurs in nearly 25% of patients. Weeks 4-8 represent the peak time for this. The heavier the bleeding, the higher the risk of miscarriage. Jeff: Miscarriage rates vary widely based on age, with an overall rate of 7-27%. This rises to nearly 40% risk in those over 40. And nearly half of miscarriages are due to fetal chromosomal abnormalities. Nachi: For patient who have a threatened miscarriage in the first trimester, there is a 2-fold increased risk of subsequent maternal and fetal adverse outcomes. Jeff: So key points here, since I think the wording and information you choose to share with often scared and worried women is important – nearly 25% of women experience...

  Jeff: Welcome back to Emplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine's Emergency Medicine Practice. I'm Jeff Nusbaum, and I'm back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta. This month, we're talking about a topic… Nachi: … woah wait, slow down for a minute, before we begin this month's episode – we should take a quick pause to wish all of our listeners a happy new year! Thanks for your regular listenership and feedback. Jeff: And we're actually hitting the two year mark since we started this podcast. At 25 episodes now, this is sort of our silver anniversary. Nachi: We have covered a ton of topics in emergency medicine so far, and we are looking forward to reviewing a lot more evidence based medicine with you all going forward. Jeff: With that, let's get into the first episode of 2019 – the topic this month is first trimester pregnancy emergencies: recognition and management. Nachi: This month's issue was authored by Dr. Ryan Pedigo, you may remember him from the June 2017 episode on dental emergencies, though he is perhaps better known as the director of undergraduate medical education at Harbor-UCLA Medical center. In addition, this issue was peer reviewed by Dr. Jennifer Beck-Esmay, assistant residency director at Mount Sinai St. Luke's, and Dr. Taku Taira, the associate director of undergraduate medical education and associate clerkship director at LA County and USC department of Emergency Medicine. Jeff: For this review, Dr. Pedigo had to review a large body of literature, including thousands of articles, guidelines from the American college of obstetricians and gynecologists or ACOG, evidence based Practice bulletins, ACOG committee opinions, guidelines from the American college of radiology, the infectious diseases society of America, clinical policies from the American college of emergency physicians, and finally a series of reviews in the Cochrane database. Nachi: There is a wealth of literature on this topic and Dr. Pedigo comments that the relevant literature is overall “very good.” This may be the first article in many months for which there is an overall very good quality of literature. Jeff: It's great to know that there is good literature on this topic. It's incredibly important as we are not dealing with a single life here, as we usually do... we are quite literally dealing with potentially two lives as the fetus moves towards viability. With opportunities to improve outcomes for both the fetus and the mother, I'm confident that this episode will be worth your time. Nachi: Oh, and speaking of being worth your time…. Don't forget that if you're listening to this episode, you can claim your CME credit. Remember, the indicates an answer to one of the CME questions so make sure to keep the issue handy. Jeff: Let's get started with some background. First trimester emergencies are not terribly uncommon in pregnancy. One study reported 85% experience nausea and vomiting. Luckily only 3% of these progressed to hyperemesis gravidarum. In addition, somewhere between 7-27% experience vaginal bleeding or miscarriage. Only 2% of these will be afflicted with an ectopic pregnancy. Overall, the maternal death rate is about 17 per 100,000 with huge racial-ethnic disparities. Nachi: And vaginal bleeding in pregnancy occurs in nearly 25% of patients. Weeks 4-8 represent the peak time for this. The heavier the bleeding, the higher the risk of miscarriage. Jeff: Miscarriage rates vary widely based on age, with an overall rate of 7-27%. This rises to nearly 40% risk in those over 40. And nearly half of miscarriages are due to fetal chromosomal abnormalities. Nachi: For patient who have a threatened miscarriage in the first trimester, there is a 2-fold increased risk of subsequent maternal and fetal adverse outcomes. Jeff: So key points here, since I think the wording and information you choose to share with often scared and worried women is important – nearly 25% of women experience bleeding in their first trimester. Not all of these will go on to miscarriages, though the risk does increase with maternal age. And of those that miscarry, nearly 50% were due to fetal chromosomal abnormalities. Nachi: So can we prevent a miscarriage, once the patient is bleeding…? Jeff: Short answer, no, longer answer, we'll get to treatment in a few minutes. For now, let's continue outlining the various first trimester emergencies. Next up, ectopic pregnancy… Nachi: An ectopic pregnancy is implantation of a fertilized ovum outside of the endometrial cavity. This occurs in up to 2% of pregnancies. About 98% occur in the fallopian tube. Risk factors for an ectopic pregnancy include salpingitis, history of STDs, history of PID, a prior ectopic, and smoking. Jeff: Interestingly, with respect to smoking, there is a dose-relationship between smoking and ectopic pregnancies. Simple advice here: don't smoke if you are pregnant or trying to get pregnant. Nachi: Pretty sound advice. In addition, though an IUD is not a risk factor for an ectopic pregnancy, if you do become pregnant while you have in IUD in place, over half of these may end up being ectopic. Jeff: It's also worth mentioning a more obscure related disease pathology here – the heterotopic pregnancy -- one in which there is an IUP and an ectopic pregnancy simultaneously. Nachi: Nausea and vomiting, though not as scary as miscarriages or an ectopic pregnancy, represent a fairly common pathophysiologic response in the first trimester -- with the vast majority of women experiencing nausea and vomiting. And as we mentioned earlier, only 3% of these progress to hyperemesis gravidarum. Jeff: And while nausea and vomiting clearly sucks, they seem to actually be protective of pregnancy loss, with a hazard ratio of 0.2. Nachi: Although this may be protective of pregnancy loss, nausea and vomiting can really decrease the quality of life in pregnancy -- with one study showing that about 25% of women with severe nausea and vomiting had actually considered pregnancy termination. 75% of those women also stated they would not want to get pregnant again because of these symptoms. Jeff: So certainly a big issue.. Two other common first trimester emergency are asymptomatic bacteriuria and UTIs. In pregnant patients, due to anatomical and physiologic changes in the GU tract – such as hydroureteronephrosis that occurs by the 7th week and urinary stasis due to bladder displacement – asymptomatic bacteriuria is a risk factor for developing pyelonephritis. Nachi: And pregnant women are, of course, still susceptible to the normal ailments of young adult women like acute appendicitis, which is the most common surgical problem in pregnancy. Jeff: Interestingly, based on epidemiologic data, pregnant women are less likely to have appendicitis than age-matched non-pregnant woman. I'd like to think that there is a good pathophysiologic explanation there, but I don't have a clue as to why that might be. Nachi: Additionally, the RLQ is the the most common location of pain from appendicitis in pregnancies of all gestational ages. Peritonitis is actually slightly more common in pregnant patients, with an odds ratio of 1.3. Jeff: Alright, so I think we can put that intro behind us and move on to the differential. Nachi: When considering the differential for abdominal pain or vaginal bleeding in the first trimester, you have to think broadly. Among gynecologic causes, you should consider miscarriage, septic abortion, ectopic pregnancy, corpus luteum cyst, ovarian torsion, vaginal or cervical lacerations, and PID. For non-gynecologic causes, you should also consider appendicitis, cholecystitis, hepatitis, and pyelonephritis. Jeff: In the middle of that laundry list you mentioned there is one pathology which I think merits special attention - ovarian torsion. Don't forget that patients undergoing ovarian stimulation as part of assisted reproductive technology are at a particularly increased risk due to the larger size of the ovaries. Nachi: Great point. Up next we have prehospital care... Jeff: Always a great section. First, prehospital providers should attempt to elicit an ob history. Including the number of weeks' gestation, LMP, whether an IUP has already been confirmed, prior hx of ectopic, and a...

Dr. Jeffrey Chadwick, New Testament scholar at BYU has done a lot of research to identify when Jesus was born. He thinks Jesus was born December of 5 BC.  How does he come to that conclusion? https://youtu.be/Ypei2W0jDaE GT:  I know you wrote a BYU Studies article about eight years ago, I think it was. Jeff: It was in 2010, December of 2010. The article appeared, dating the birth of Jesus Christ. So when was Jesus born? Well, [we ] have data that we have that are connected to what we call the Christmas story, both from the texts in Matthew, the texts in Luke, the associated texts in Josephus that talk about Herod the Great, and for us as Latter-day Saints, the Book of Mormon. All of the evidence put together from those texts suggest to me that Jesus was born late in the year 5 BC, actually in early winter of 5/4 BC. So for us, that essentially means December. In this first episode, we'll dig deep into the census mentioned in Luke 2.  Many scholars believe this census happened in 6 AD.  How does Dr. Chadwick reconcile this? Jeff: King James is a translation of the Greek and it doesn't say census there. It's says enrollment. Let me just see, and pick it up there. But, the idea that is a census is something that has bounced around 20th century scholarship. But, I don't feel that what was happening there was a census in the word that we're used to it. GT: All the world should be taxed, right? Jeff: Taxed. It's a taxing. This taxing first occurred, says Luke 2, when Cyrenius, or as we would call him, Quirinius, was the governor of Syria. Well, the word taxing here in your King James version, if you're using a nice LDS edition, if you go down to the footnote, you will see that the word taxing is called enrollment. It's not the word census that is used in that Greek alternative. It's enrollment. And what this was in reality was a city register. If you've lived in America, you've never had to enroll. But if you go to any city in Europe, I served in Germany for example. If you move to a city, you have to register with the government for that city to let them know you're moving there and will be a citizen. If you leave that city, you unregister and the new city you go to, you register it. And this is a European tradition that that comes clear from the Roman Empire. Check out our conversation….. Dr. Jeffrey Chadwick believes Jesus born in December. If you would like a different perspective, see our previous interview with Dr. Thom Wayment.  He doesn't think the birth of Christ can be dated so precisely.

Jeff: Welcome back to Emplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine's Emergency Medicine Practice. I'm Jeff Nusbaum, and I'm back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta. This month, we're back with our old routine – no special guests. Nachi: Don't sound so sad about it! Jeremy was great last month, and he's definitely paved the way for more special guests in upcoming episodes. Jeff: You're right. But this month's episode is special in its own way - we'll be tackling Electrical Injuries in the emergency department - from low and high voltage injuries to the more extreme and rare lightning related injuries. Nachi: And this is obviously not something we see that often, so listen up for some easy to remember high yield points to help you when you get an electrical injury in the ED. And pay particular attention to the , which, as always, signals the answer to one of our CME questions. Jeff: I hate to digress so early and drop a cliché, “let's start with a case…” but we, just a month ago, had a lightning strike induced cardiac arrest in Pittsburgh, so this hits really close to home. Thankfully, that gentleman was successfully resuscitated despite no bystander CPR, and if you listen carefully, we hope to arm you with the tools to do so similarly. Nachi: This month's print issue was authored by Dr. Gentges and Dr. Schieche from the Oklahoma University School of Community Medicine. It was peer reviewed by Dr. O'Keefe and Dr. Silverberg from Florida State University College of Medicine and Kings County Hospital, respectively. Jeff: And unlike past issues covering more common pathologies, like, say, sepsis, this month's team reviewed much more literature than just the past 10 years. In total, they pulled references from 1966 until 2018. Their search yielded 477 articles, which was narrowed to 88 after initial review. Nachi: Each year, in the US, approximately 10,000 patients present with electrical burns or shocks. Thankfully, fatalities are declining, with just 565 in 2015. On average, between 25 and 50 of the yearly fatalities can be attributed to lightning strikes. Jeff: Interestingly, most of the decrease in fatalities is due to improvements in occupational protections and not due so much to changes in healthcare. Nachi: That is interesting and great to hear for workers. Also, worth noting is the trimodal distribution of patients with electrical injuries: with young children being affected by household currents, adolescent males engaging in high risk behaviors, and adult males with occupational exposures and hazards. Jeff: Electrical injuries and snake bites – leave it to us men to excel at all the wrong things… Anyway, before we get into the medicine, we unfortunately need to cover some basic physics. I know, it might seem painful, but it's necessary. There are a couple of terms we need to define to help us understand the pathologies we'll be discussing. Those terms are: current, amperes, voltage, and resistance. Nachi: So, the current is the total amount of electrons moving down a gradient over time, and it's measured in amperes. Jeff: Voltage, on the other hand, is the potential difference between the top and bottom of a gradient. The current is directly proportional to the voltage. It can be alternating, AC, or direct, DC. Nachi: Resistance is the obstruction of electrical flow and it is inversely proportional to the current. Think of Ohm's Law here. Voltage = current x resistance. Jeff: Damage to the tissues from electricity is largely due to thermal injury, which depends on the tissue resistance, voltage, amperage, type of circuit, and the duration of contact. Nachi: That brings us to an interesting concept – the let-go threshold. Since electrical injuries are often due to grasping an electric source, this can induce tetanic muscle contractions and therefore the inability to let go, thus increasing the duration of contact and extent of injury. Jeff: Definitely adding insult to injury right there. With respect to the tissue resistance, that amount varies widely depending on the type of tissue. Dry skin has high resistance, far greater than wet or lacerated skin. And the skin's resistance breaks down as it absorbs more energy. Nerve tissue has the least resistance and can be damaged by even low voltage without cutaneous manifestations. Bone and fat have the highest resistance. In between nerve and bone or fat, we have blood and vascular tissue, which have low resistance, and muscle and the viscera which have a slightly higher resistance. Nachi: Understanding the resistances will help you anticipate the types of injuries you are treating, since current will tend to follow the path of least resistance. In high resistance tissues, most of the energy is lost as heat, causing coagulation necrosis. These concepts also explain why you may have deeper injuries beyond what can be visualized on the surface. Jeff: And not only does the resistance play a role, but so too does the amount and type of current. AC, which is often found in standard home and office settings, but can also be found in high voltage transmission lines, usually affects the electrically sensitive tissues like nerve and muscle. DC has a higher let-go threshold and does not cause as much sensation. It also requires more amperage to cause v-fib. DC is often found in batteries, car and computer electrical systems, some high voltage transmission lines, and capacitors. Nachi: Voltage has a twofold effect on tissues. The first mechanism is through electroporation, which is direct damage to cell membranes by high voltage. The second is by overcoming the resistance of body tissues and intervening objects such as clothes or water. You're probably familiar with this concept when you see high voltages arcing through the air without direct contact with the actual electrical source, leading to diffuse burns. Jeff: As voltage increases, the resistance of dry skin is -- not surprisingly -- reduced, leading to worse injuries. Nachi: And for this reason, the US Department of Energy has set 600 Volts as the cutoff for low vs high voltage electrical exposure. Jeff: It is absolutely critical that we also mention and then re-mention throughout this episode, that those with electrical injuries often have multisystem injuries due to not only the thermal injury, electrical damage to electrically sensitive tissue, but also mechanical trauma. Injuries are not uncommon both from forceful pulling away from the source or a subsequent fall if one occurs. Nachi: That's a great point which we'll return to soon, as it plays an important role in destination selection. But before we get there, let's review the common clinical manifestations of electrical injuries. Jeff: First up is – the cutaneous injuries. Most electrical injuries present with burns to the skin. Low voltage exposures typically cause superficial burns at the entry and exit sites, whereas high voltage exposures cause larger, deeper burns that may require skin grafting, debridement, and even amputation. Nachi: High voltage injuries can also travel through the sub-q tissue leading to extensive burns to deep structures despite what appears to be relatively uninjured skin. In addition, high voltage injuries can also result in superficial burns to large areas secondary to flash injury. Jeff: Electrical injuries can also lead to musculoskeletal injuries via either thermal or mechanical means. Thermal injury can lead to muscle breakdown, rhabdo, myonecrosis, edema, and in worse cases, compartment syndrome. In the bones, it can lead to osteonecrosis and periosteal burns. Nachi: In terms of mechanical injury – electrical injury often leads to forceful muscular contraction and falls. In 2 retrospective studies, 11% of patients with high voltage exposures also had traumatic injuries. Jeff: While not nearly as common, the rarer cardiovascular injuries are certainly up there as the most feared. Pay attention to the entry and exit sites, as the pathway of the shock is predictive of the potential for myocardial injury and arrhythmia. Common arrhythmias include AV block, bundle branch blocks, a fib, QT prolongation and even ventricular arrhythmias, including both v-fib and v-tach, both of which typically occur immediately after the injury. Nachi: There is a school of thought out there that victims of electrical injury can have delayed onset arrhythmias and require prolonged car