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This week on the SNL Hall of Fame podcast we're joined by the delightful Victoria Franco to discuss the bona fidas of writer John Mulaney. Transcrlpt: [0:41] Oh my goodness gracious me, oh my, it is my privilege to be joining you onceagain this week in the SNL Hall of Fame.The SNL Hall of Fame podcast is a weekly affair where each episode we take adeep dive into the career of a former cast member, host, musical guest,or writer, and add them to the ballot for your consideration.Once the nominees have been announced, we turn to you, the listener,to vote for the the most deserving and help determine who will be enshrinedfor perpetuity in the hall.And that's how we play the game.It's just that easy. But before we get to voting, we need to discuss our nominee.And before we discuss our nominee, we need to speak with our friend Matt Ardillin his minutiae minute corner.What do you say we wander over there and see what old Matty is up to?Track 3[1:39] Hey, JD, how are you doing? I am parched, and I just had an enjoyable sip ofwater, which has cleaned up the old pipes.Yeah, nature soda, I've heard it called. Nature soda, I like it.Yeah. I heard somebody say they won't drink water because fish have sex in it.I i think that's a fair you know i i canunderstand that but um you know run it through enoughpurifiers it should be fine i mean i'm ai'm a water fiend i drink like four liters a day oh it's yeah it's good forthe body that's right that's why i'm so uh uh easy on the eyes yeah you areyou are ripped are ripped right speaking of ripped this week we've got john,Yeah, back again.Um, so I did make the effort of finding new trivia, so it should be a long timelistener listeners. It should be interesting.Track 3[2:45] Um, uh, height six foot, uh, one of the taller, uh, uh, contestants for, or nominees actually.Yeah. Yeah. Born August 26th, 1982. Yeah.He has 28 writing credits, 42 actor credits, 13 producer credits.I have to say, when I saw him in The Bear, it blew me away. It was really intense.Did not expect that. So he's got a lot of good acting chops.He's released five stand-up specials and his Sack Lunch Bunch Kids special.Grew up in Chicago, child of a law professor, mother Ellen, and attorney fatherCharles Charles Chip W. Mulaney.Never mess with a chip. Anybody who's got Chip as a nickname, that's trouble.Track 3[3:35] But he's descended from a lot of political go-getters.He's descended from the mayor of Salem and has congressmen on both sides of his family.Track 3[3:49] So, yeah, he's got a good pedigree.His maternal grandmother, Carolyn Stanton, and Seth Meyers' mother,Hillary Meyers, performed together at a hospital benefit show called Pills aPoppin'. That's some foreshadowing.And it was directed by Tommy Toon when they were 19 years old.So there is some deep family connections going on there.Yeah. So he attended Georgetown University, and as most people know,with Nick. role where he studied English literature.He decided he wanted to go to show into show business at the age of five afterwatching a lifestyle program, uh, about Ricky Ricardo, uh, which is the mostJohn Mulaney thing I have ever read.Um, like if anybody's going to set their life goals by watching Ricky Ricardo,that would be John Mulaney.Yeah. From that point, he started doing sketches for friends and family whenever given a chance and,And he was pushed, actually, by his high school teacher to pursue his love of comedy.He actually almost had the role, well, he almost auditioned for the role ofKevin McAllister in Home Alone, but his parents wouldn't let him.Track 3[5:07] That is wild. Yeah, that would have been a very interesting and different Home Alone movie.Track 3[5:14] I can only imagine what 10-year-old John Mulaney would have brought to the game.Um so instead he juststarted hanging around the museum of broadcasting communications until hegot to go to university uh that when hejoined an improv group uh which is wherehe met kroll and mike berbiglia uh whotook him on tour uh during his uh daysand that's how he lost his stage fright he's had his own showwith mulaney uh his own show mulaney healso appeared as himself on jim gaffigan's sitcom wherehe portrayed his jim gaffigan'snemesis as himself and he'staken roles in chip and dale spider-man cartoons ofspider-ham which you know perfect casting no notes.Track 3[5:59] His first late night gig was writing for conanuh but he's also takenon writing roles for seth myers uhas and has also written for the academy awards and theemmys he has had a couple couple of brushes withbroadway first uh bringing a special kid gorgeousto radio city music hall and then bringingoh hello the sketch from the cruel show tobeing a broadway show where they just hadrandom famous people showing up he's also released an album the top part whichis just him telling anecdotes which i need to listen to now yeah i don't knowabout that but it's just like him telling anecdotes and stories sign me up yeahbut uh his esoteric sense of humor has has led him to many projects.Track 3[6:44] Including contributing to Seth Meyers parody show documentary now.Track 3[6:48] And he is in fact a super fan of law and order.Welcome to my.Track 4[7:16] Of flour All right, JD and Matt, thank you so much. Yes, we are here.Another episode of the SNL Hall of Fame. I'm so excited about this one.This is an interesting one. We're talking about somebody who's already beenon the ballot since season one, but in a different capacity.We're kind of reorganizing our thoughts when it comes to this person.We're reframing his Hall of Fame candidacy and his role on SNL.So I'm talking about John Mulaney, who's been on the ballot as a host in previous times.We decided, let's talk about him as a writer, because that was his starting point on SNL.So we're talking John Mulaney as a writer today on the SNL Hall of Fame,and joining me to do that, a previous guest.You may have heard her on the Amy Poehler episode that we did.You may have heard her on one of the end of season roundtables where she didsuch a great job expressing her opinions that we always love to hear about.And you've probably heard her on the SNN, our buddies over at the Saturday Night Network.I'm talking about Victoria Fronzo is joining me today to chat about John Mulaney.Track 4[8:39] Victoria, how's it going? Doing well. I'm very excited to talk about the oneand only John Mulaney. I feel like we have similarities in, you know, being.Track 4[8:50] From chicago and the comedy scene i cansee that and you're one of my few guests there's ahandful of guests but you're one of my few guests who i've actually kind ofbeen able to hang out with in person so alot of us in the snl community know each other just by doing podcasts and onlinebut we've actually got to hang out in chicago so that was that was wonderfuland you're a very funny person so i can kind of see those similarities as wellyes i i took i took thomas to the best It's the best empanada place in Chicago. It's so good.Yeah. It's delicious. We had empanadas. I got an horchata. I walked around Chicago.It was a good time. Yes.I'm going to plug Cafe Tola. Always support a Latina-owned business in Chicago.So Cafe Tola is one of the best empanada places in the city of Chicago.Yeah. Yeah. It was awesome. Great recommendation.Track 4[9:41] So you're living in Chicago right now. You're living the sketch comedy dream.Dream? Like, what have you been up to over the last few months or so?Oh, man. So I am, I, you know, moved back to Chicago last year from Detroit.I'm back at the Second City.I finished the conservatory slash grad review program, which was really awesome.And now I'm getting ready for my own SNL showcase because I am an SNL scholarat the Second City, which justmeans that Saturday Night Live pays for my classes and training there.And at the end of it, we get to put together whether a showcase that is SNL-likeand that it's sketches and solo pieces.And yeah, that's open to the public. So if you're around, feel free to come.I'm also just doing some writing and performing on the side too.Track 4[10:28] Yeah, if you're in Chicago, that sounds like an awesome deal.Go support Victoria and go support these SNL scholars and what they're doingover there at Second City in Chicago.It's such a cool thing. If I live closer, I would have already attended.I think I missed it by a week as well when I was up there last.Yeah, you should just, I don't know.Track 4[10:48] Rearrange your whole life and come back to Chicago. No excuse is she saying? Yes.We have, I mean, the SNL scholars are four of us.One of them quite literally flew across the world to be here from Austria.So it's a nice blend of folks that we've got in the cast.Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm excited to hear how it goes.And, again, if anybody's in the area, please go check it out.Go check out Victoria there at Second City.Somebody who probably is an influence to a lot of Second City folks,I'm sure you included, is our topic today, John Mulaney.He's a stand-up by trade. He auditioned to be a cast member for SNL.He auditioned at the same time as Nick Kroll, Donald Glover,Ellie Kemper, Bobby Moynihan, who obviously ended up getting it.Mulaney did not get the cast member job, but he ended up being offered a writingjob, which he immediately accepted.So he was a writer from 2009 to 2012.So going from auditioning to be a cast member to getting a writing job,that's not a bad deal, Victoria.I would certainly take that. I don't know about you. I would.I would take a janitor job at SNL, to be honest with you.Yeah, yeah. Yeah, if they offered me the janitor job, if they offered me whateverpage, I always wanted to be, I should have started young and tried to be a page.I know. Even then, though, it's so hard.Track 4[12:16] It's easier if you're in New York City and had connections to NBC to be a page.Yeah, and I think NBC and SNL made the right choice.Mulaney probably would have been a pretty decent cast member.Remember, he would have added his own flair, but we got the chance to reallyenjoy his writing stuff and his work as a writer.So I want to talk about his stand-up, Victoria. Are you a fan of Mulaney's stand-up?I am. So to be completely honest.It's going to shock some people here. I didn't really know about John Mulaney up until 2019.I had no idea who he was, and I've always been an SNL fan.I never went deep, though, into learning who the writers were or whatnot.But a friend of mine told me, you know, there's this guy.He just released a special on Netflix. He's so up your alley.And I go, what's his name? She goes, you don't know who that is?It's an SNL writer, John Mulaney. And I go, I have no idea who that is.Track 4[13:22] And watched his stand-up. And I don't want to say fell in love because that's inappropriate.But I did come to love his comedy very much.I'm a little bit in love with Mulaney and his comedy. So you could say fellin love. I think that's somewhat appropriate.I just don't, you know, he's got a partner. He does. I don't want to be disrespectful.He's a dad now. It's a little murky.Yeah, he's a full papa now.Yeah, so you fell in love with the stand-up material. What was it about thematerial that really grabbed you?I loved that he was weird.Or not weird, but he could find the weird in everyday things and make it funny.And not only that, you know, not to say he's a clean comedian by chance, but he...He's smart about his comedy, if that makes sense.He's smart and strategic versus, you know, going blue, as we say in comedy,to lean in as a crutch, which was really refreshing.Track 4[14:27] I think his stand-ups changed a little bit, and that's totally fair.And as it should, like as you grow and change, so should your content.I didn't expect it to stay the same, but even now with baby Jay,after everything that's happened the last couple of years, it's still really funny to me.And I love that he's kind of poked fun at his likability. And I think that's what it is.He's likable even in this new chapter of his life.Track 4[14:53] I think he has this specific relatability, if that makes sense.That's what I point about. He focuses on hyper-specific things,I think, his specific observations, but he makes them relatable,whether it's, I know that conceptthat he's talking about, or I've also observed that specific thing.I think Mulaney's always been so good at that. I think it does show up in his sketch work as well.You brought up a really good point, too, with Working Blue and his choice.I mean, he's not a clean comic. I mean, he does curse, but it's for effect.If he curses it's for a reason he's notjust using the f word as some sort of verbal pauselike a lot of comedians do it's uhmulaney's very strategic about it and he's he'svery strategic about his comedy in general victoria that's what i love abouta lot of his stand-up is i feel like one of my really funny friends is talkingto me and telling me a story so he makes it conversational but you can telland appreciate the craft that went into it at the same time It's a really neat,delicate balance that Mulaney strikes, I think.Track 4[16:03] You know, male comics, not all, of course, I'm not going to generalize them,but some of them, and quite a few of them, tend to play the D-bag role in their stand-up, right?And that can be funny at times, and I'm not opposed to it. I'll watch any type of comedy.I'll never say no, unless they're incredibly problematic or outwardly horrible.But that's what differentiated him. him he wasn't playing a bro he wasn't youknow womanizing he wasn't you know he didn't he never really punches down inhis comedy which is something i think is admirable too in a takeaway,yeah he punches a lot of times he punches at himself he like punches inward and especially.Track 4[16:51] Laterally yeah he punches laterally like a t-rex like you i think you shouldhave seen victoria on on camera she was punching and it looked like she waslike a t-rex arms punching laterally that's what and that's how i punch in reallife so don't mess oh no don't ever fight please,begging you um yeah noyou're right and he's very he's self-deprecating but not in an annoying kindof way it's like a lot of comedians are self-deprecating like all right it kindof comes off as fake like you're making fun of yourself but do you really believeit i think mulaney i believe it especially with baby j you mentioned baby jhis most recent special when he was talking Talking about his intervention,I think that was so great.It was self-deprecating, but it was like honest.And he was almost making fun of other people, but it would go back to him.And it was, I think Baby J was a, we've seen it throughout his comedy.Kid Gorgeous is one of my favorite stand-up specials of all time. Yes.That's from like 2018, around the time maybe that you get. That was the first one I watched.Yeah, okay. Maybe, yeah, Kid Gorgeous was the special. and I think that's oneof my favorite all-time stand-up specials by anybody and you could just seehis voice in that just it shines through and I think you could see.Track 4[18:10] On SNL, that comedic voice of Mulaney's show up on his work on SNL.I mean, would you say that that's correct? He has a stamp on his sketches. That's Mulaney. Yeah.Yeah, I was going to say in preparation for this, I've come to realize a lotof my favorite stuff on SNL written by Mulaney.Yeah. Or stuff that I'm laughing out loud. I'm like, oh, that's really funny.That's tied to Mulaney. but I do want to go back to his stand-up.I just want to shout out a joke he did.It's the McDonald's joke. I think it's from The Comeback Kid.He and his family are on a road trip, and they see the golden arches,and they start chanting, McDonald's, McDonald's, McDonald's.And my dad pulled into the drive-thru, and we started cheering.And then he ordered one black coffee for himself.Track 4[19:08] And kept driving.And you know, as mad as that made me as a little kid, in retrospect,that is the funniest thing I have ever seen in my entire life.How perfect is that?He had a vanload of little kids, and he got black coffee, the one thing fromMcDonald's no child could enjoy.Yeah, and now in my family, my parents watch thatwith me every time we see a mcdonald's even though wedon't necessarily go to eat from mcdonald's anymore we chant mcdonald's so yeahit's something like that no that's perfect but something like that that's sospecific that that you know happened to him or whatever but it's so relatableat the same time like you just you understand that family dynamic,that he's talking about uh there was something from kid gorgeous uh one of myfavorite bits is when he was comparing Trump to a horse loose in a hospital.This guy being the president, it's like there's a horse loose in a hospital.Track 4[20:16] It's like there's a horse loose in a hospital.I think eventually everything's going to be okay, but I have no idea what's going to happen next.And neither do any of you, andneither do your parents, because there's a horse loose in the hospital.It's never happened before.No one knows what the horse is going to do next. Least of all the horse,he's never been in a hospital before.He's as confused as you are. That's a fantastic imagery, perfect metaphor, perfect beats.Like, I think that's one of the better bits of any comedian I've seen,like, in the last 10 years.And that's the perfect way to describe him.Because last week, I watched Kid Gorgeous again. And I was just like,yeah, no, that holds true. Yeah.Track 4[21:07] Yeah, no, it's a perfect, yeah, it's a perfect way to describe that president.Yeah, pretty much, yeah. And it's so Mulaney, too.It's such a Mulaney way to describe his presidency as well. That's what I love.Like, some of my favorite comedians, he's just, like, hyper-specific voice.We did another writer, Julio Torres, recently on the SNL Hall of Fame,and he's another one where it's just like I would watch a sketch,and that's Julio Torres' voice. I watched something from Mulaney,and that's Mulaney's perspective and his voice.So I think that's just a mark of a really great writer is nothing generic.It's your stamp on it. And I'm glad I have you on here today.I want to take advantage of like your training and your knowledge and everythingjust for sketch writing in general.Victoria, like as a viewer of sketch comedy and somebody who takes part in sketchcomedy, who works in it. What are some things you look for in good sketch writing?Oh, man.Track 4[22:09] Obviously, it's subjective and everyone's everyone's different.I love what I love callbacks to something.So if you're watching a full show, this only mostly pertains to stage or theatercomedy versus, you know, an SNL type show.But when they do something in the like in an earlier sketch and then they callit back, it's called a runner.You know there are all these ties i really love that because that's it'sa smart way to put the show together and create somewhat ofa theme in terms of sketch ijust love when there's a character with a purpose right andthere's a character who's who the other characters in the sketch complimentthem and this is something we were talking talking about before we went livehere everyone in that sketch serves a purpose and it's not just they're justthere to fill space and and let this main character be weird.We talked about Herb Welch.Track 4[23:06] We know this is about Herb Welch, but every character from the anchor at thestudio to the people he's interviewing, they all compliment him,and they serve a purpose to show something,a characteristic about that person, if that makes sense. I don't know if I'mdescribing that accurately.Yeah, no, it's almost where, Where even if a character on screen is nonsensical,it has to be grounded in something.Correct. That's what I want to say, grounded. Yeah, it has to be grounded in something.And the people that you mentioned, like the supporting characters,serve as the characters who maybe ground whatever's happening.Yes. Either to highlight the absurdity or whatever. But you're right.Good sketch writing, I think, nothing should be throwaway.Track 4[23:55] And I think that's, was that something like that you, what we're getting attoo is just, you know, like you said, like the grounding aspect,but also like no, like an economy of words in a way.Like you have to use the three minutes that you have like wisely and efficiently.Yes. And I like when things are succinct and to the point versus drawn out and we don't get it.Or I like what you said about throw away. way.Sometimes, a lot of times, I should say, sketches don't need those extra linesthat you think they need, right, to justify.You know, a character doesn't have to say, hi, mom and dad.We should be able to know that just based on, we need to start in the middle of that.Or of like, well, thanks for coming to my wine and cheese night.We're going to do X, Y, Z. It's just start in the middle of the scene.We get, like, we see the wine, we see the cheese, you know what I mean?I mean, it doesn't have to be about the wine and cheese.That's, you know, just a random situation, just an example.I don't know. And I just – my favorite thing about Mulaney is that he's kind of bold, too.I don't think a lot of people would be making the same jokes that he was making. I don't know.That's also to say I don't think he would make the same jokes as he did 10,12, 13, 14 years ago either.Track 4[25:21] Times have changed. But, you know, I think he did a good job of,I don't know, I like sometimes fearless comedy.And I'm not saying that as an excuse to be a jerk, right? Right, there's a difference.Yeah, there's a difference. You should never be a jerk and, you know,make cheap shots and, you know, make marginalized people the butt of the joke.That's not what I'm saying at all. But, you know, don't be so afraid to talkabout the things that are just real life and are real to those groups or, you know what I mean?Track 4[25:55] Yeah. Yeah, and I think we saw a lot of that show up, of course,and the thing that sticks out to me and you and probably every SNL fan withMulaney is a lot of those things that you just mentioned showed up in Stefan,which Mulaney wrote with Bill Hader.And that was the best thing, I think, that almost pretty much anybody has ever done on SNL.This is one of my personal favorite things ever on SNL. yeah andi think with stefan melanie's verygood at what you just mentioned victoria's showingon her notebook she has a stefan sticker soobviously a fan of stefan buti think melanie's good at referencing things that seem very specific butare oddly relatable in stefan he's very good about not punchingdown at marginalized people but still making jokes involving marginalizedpeople in a lot of ways so talk about victoria liketalk about stefan just in general like what do you want want to say about thisawesome piece of art and something ifailed to mention again i did not doa good job of explaining why i find in a sketch butspecificity specificity is that a word that's very much a word and you did agood job there you go thank you english is my second language as i like to jokeum no but he has specifics that make it incredibly weird and and stefan right um.Track 4[27:17] Um, you know, I don't, I can, I don't know that I can describe some of the things,you know, Stefan would say, again, I don't think we'd be making the same jokes today,which is fair and fine and understandable, but you know, I don't want to saythe word, but he was talking about real life suitcases where they wear,where they wear people, but he used the M word.Yes. And like, I think it was likelayering clothes on and putting on rollerblades. And you know what I mean?Just like how stupid, you know, that's just like a stupid, funny joke.Um, yeah, that imagery.Yeah. The, the imagery of it is fun. And I love the game between Stefan and Seth of.Track 4[28:02] No, we're looking for suggestions for, you know, a Midwestern family or anybody who's not you.I got it already. Okay. New York's hottest club is Bush.This club has everything. Ghosts. Good. Banjos. Carl Palladino.A stuck-up kitten who won't sign autographs.Furcles. Oh, do I want to know? Yes, you do. So furcles are? Fat urcles. Right.Of course they are. Sure. Sure they are.And after you've been with one of those guys, you'll ask yourself, did I do that?Track 4[28:47] Stefan. Just these like weird, random, yet very specific things that don't necessarilyfit together that are under the same roof at whatever club is.It was just, yeah, it was a nice blend of weird but specific.And, you know, I think it worked for Stefan.Yeah, I absolutely agree. One of my favorite jokes that he did is Stefan.The cast is a special guest. Have you heard of Blackula, the black Dracula? Yes.Well, they have a Jewish Dracula. Oh, what's his name? Sidney Applebaum.Track 4[29:33] Sidney Applebaum. Jewish. Jewish Dracula.Sidney. It's that misdirection, that funny misdirection. I could totally tellMulaney was sitting there like, I gotta do some sort of misdirection jokes.You think he's obviously going to do a play, like blackula isa play on black dracula he says jewish dracula there'sgonna be a play on that but it's just a jewish name andthat's totally mulaney's sense of humor and iappreciate that and also the game of i i uh idon't know if you and i've ever talked about breaking before in insketches first of all okay so how do you feel justin general like about breaking i think there's a time and place you know ifyou're just breaking right off the bat it's not not funny if you're doing itexcessively it's not funny it just depends and maybe like for example debbiedowner what worked for that sketch was that everyone was breaking constantly,but that was like a joint yeah this is funny and ridiculous and we're you knowthe fact they couldn't get through it was funny to us but if it's a single personwho's just breaking and it doesn't seem genuine.Track 4[30:51] They kind of ruined it. Yeah. Yeah. I think with Stefan, to me,it did seem genuine. As the audience, we started kind of knowing the game thatMulaney was playing with Bill Hader in there.So Mulaney would change the cue cards.He would change the punchlines to some of the jokes.And so when Bill, as Stefan, was reading the joke, that could have been thefirst time that he was reading that specific punchline.Even though they did it in dress i think between dress and air milani wouldhe would have punch lines like multiple versions of apunch line of a joke so he would just switch out punch linesbetween dress and air so that'd be the first time that we saw bill reading thatjoke so i think in breaking in that case yes it's funny there's like a funnygame it's part of this bit or whatever and it's something that with debbie downeri think the first time they did it was natural and that's That's why it was a classic.And then they tried to recreate it and it wasn't the same.And they found the magic with Stefan being able to recreate the game of breaking.And I don't know how they did it. They weren't able to recreate it.And Debbie Downer, Lisa from Temecula recently, I don't think they've been able to recreate that.But with Stefan, millennium hater managed to recreate breaking and make it seem authentic every time.Like, I wonder why that is, Victoria, what's the difference?Track 4[32:17] Well, it's probably because every single thing Stefan says is he's a firecracker.You don't know what he's going to say, and he doesn't know what he's going to say.And I think why that's getting a laugh is that those folks in studio are also seeing that.They're seeing the switch or whatever. But I think it works for them because.Track 4[32:39] The nature of Stefan is so out there and wild and weird that he's not a relatable character.He's not saying the run-of-the-mill things of, oh, my favorite breakfast is pancakes with bacon.He's saying some very weird things.And to say them in person, out loud, in front of an audience is kind of,you know, like, what am I saying? I do that too sometimes.His favorite breakfast would be like uppers and regret. Or something like that. I don't know.Yeah. And I mean, I've gotten my breaking under control. But I've broken on stage.Yeah. And it's just funny because I'm, and to me, what's making it funny iswe've been rehearsing this.And we've got the joke. And, you know, we've, whatever.But now we're sharing this with other people who are not comedians.Track 4[33:37] And we don't know how they're going to react to what we know is ridiculous andI'm going to say it and hope for the best.You know what I mean? Yeah. Part of the breaking is that we're now saying thisin front of people who we don't know.We don't know what they're going to say, how they're going to react to it essentially.Yeah. Yeah, that's a really neat perspective on breaking, I guess from a performer's side of it.I think, yeah, just as long as it doesn't feel forced or – Yes,I think that's what I – you're better at words today than I am,but that's what I meant of when you're solo or you start breaking off the bat or whatever it is.If it just doesn't seem genuine, if you're not actually laughing,you're just doing it to deflect or try to make this funnier or trying to be funny by breaking –.Track 4[34:27] I don't think it works. I think people will notice that. And if you're genuinelybreaking, people will laugh with you and not at you.Yeah, essentially, Mulaney's a magician when it comes to this because he wasable to make it seem authentic and part of the game and everything like that with Stefan.So Stefan, by the way, on the Saturday Night Network's character countdown,I believe he was number one. I was on that episode.Yeah, he was number one. Do you agree with Stefan? Like, could you see him beingnumber one in a character countdown?It's 49 years of history, I know. But what do you think of that?I'm trying to think of, well, okay, hold on. I was going to say,who else would be number one?But I really love some of Kristen Wiig's characters, too. But Stefan being numberone is a fair assessment.That kind of makes sense, right? Yeah. Because there are no diminishing returns, too.So I think that's another thing about good sketch writing. writingis if you keep writing the samefor the same character and how are the returnson it with Stefan I don't think Victoria there was diminishing returnson Stefan it might have gotten better honestly so that as a sketch writer andsomebody who appreciates sketch like how that that's such a sometimes a rarething not to see diminishing returns for a recurring character no that's completelyaccurate it's a fair assessment I was like unless you're doing.Track 4[35:52] A specific show about those same characters butyeah no it's i thinkthat's one thing that stefan got the sameamount of laughs if not even more laughs every time he heshowed up yeah and that's just great writing andgreat performance by bill of course bill hater yep amazing performerbut that's just like the team like millennia bill just such a wonderful teamuh so stefan on yeah we love victoria has a step on sticker on her notebookso we we all love step on uh something that that i've always loved very relatablething of forgetting people's names,uh so it's presented in a fun way by millennia so millennia's behind the what'sthat name sketches so victoria these are these get me every time i think hedid three of them But all three were just fantastic.You know, like a relatable premise. I love these. What did you think of what's that name?Track 4[36:50] It's interesting. So I have a very millennial slash Gen Z take on this.So there are people that will follow me and I follow them back on Instagram.And we have our names on Instagram.But I won't know their real name, but I know their Instagram name. Oh, no.And, for example, this literally happened last night where there's this personwho's – I've met them in person, and we follow each other on Instagram,but I forgot their real name. Is it me?Did you forget my name? Tim.Track 4[37:31] No his name is thomas everybody his name is thomas itsays it in the top top left cornerhere um no but there's a person that iran into and i forgot his real nameand i was about to call him hisinstagram handle but i think it'sjust again it's a very funny premise i thinkthat's a great take on how to present this versus doinga real life like relationship sketchif that makes sense yeah you know i love that they putit in game format and not just hey we're at a hot dog stand and i don't knowyour name and what kind of game can we play within the sketch i love that theformat of it is a game show yeah i think game show sketches get a bad rap likepeople say oh oh, another game show sketch.But I think that it's format. Like the format of a game show is ripe to presentjokes, to present situations.Track 4[38:28] I think it just gets a bad rap. But to me, it being a game show sketch in andof itself, I don't think it's a bad thing. It's just about execution.Just like with any of this stuff, it's about the execution. I agree with youthat it was a good idea to make this a game show.And, of course, Bill Hader, like arguably one of the best game show hosts in SNL history.You can make him a game show host with anything. Yeah. Knock it out of the park.I know your whole family. Your son Avi loves Outer Space. What's my name?Track 4[39:01] Carl? Audience, what's that name? Norman.Norman the doorman. Oh, I'm so sorry.Say hi to the wife for me. I'm sorry, what's that? that, say hi to my wife.Yeah, OK, I'll take the bus out to Forest Hills Cemetery and tell her that you say hello.Track 4[39:24] God, what the hell kind of show is this? It's What's That Name?The interactions between Hader and the contestants, he was like,Bill Hader was antagonistic.He's like the sadistic game show host. He was like, I know you forget names,and I'm doing this on purpose to put you in this position.So uh yeah the the first onethey did was uh season 36 episode 9uh it was mulaney he he co-wrote thesewith uh simon rich who he collaborated collaborated with a lot and merica sawyerso there's like his writing partners a lot of the time on the show and he collaboratedwith them on what's that name it was like paul rudd vanessa bear keenan comesout as uh the doorman and paul rudd's trying to remember the name it's norman the doorman like Like,how easy is it to remember that name?So these are just, like, lovely, lovely sketches.He did it, too, when he came back to host as well.Track 4[40:23] Yeah, I thought that was very funny. Keena was like, I know your son,and he loves outer space. What's my name?And, yeah, it was very, very funny. I love that one and the one with Mulaneyand Cecily, that the women were, you know, executives in part.Like, you know, they were high-ranking in their workplaces, so shout-out tothat, and not just making them stay-at-home moms or whatever it is.Mulaney and Simon Rich and Marika Sawyer lifting up women.Yes. In the What's That Name sketch. Bonus points.Yeah. For the SNL Hall of Fame if you lift up women.Yeah. You have to.In this economy, you have to. In this economy, that's just, yeah.Bonus points for the SNL Hall of Fame candidacy. So What's That Name?I know just a fan favorite that Mulaney was behind along with Marika Sawyer and Simon Rich.Track 4[41:22] Something that's very Mulaney specific to me it's a funny observation aboutLifetime movies and Mulaney's done this in his stand up not specifically aboutLifetime movies but he's talked about what like Law and Order,and made funny observations about that recently at the Academy Awards he hada whole thing about Field of Dreams that was great.Shout out Field of Dreams what a good movie what a good movie.It's a little absurd though in a lot of ways that Mulaney I mean,yeah, he did that for, um, what's funny is that Field of Dreams and the Fugitive,which he, which he described.Oh, I forgot what standup special it was. Like.Two movies my family loved watching together growing up, and he described them so ridiculous.It was funny. Ridiculous but accurate, but it was very funny.Yeah, in a loving way. He's so good about taking just the grinding at the heartof what makes something its essence, the essence of what makes something sillyand ridiculous, and really highlighting that stuff.So he did a sketch in season 37. He wrote a sketch called What's Wrong with Tanya.Okay, let's go over the rules. a lifetime movie Tanya will walk out and you'llhave 15 seconds to guess what's wrong with her. There's nothing wrong with her!Yes, yes there is.Let's bring out our first Tanya.Track 4[42:49] All right, mothers, what is wrong with Tanya?Tanya! Tanya! Tanya! Oh my God, look at me! Tanya! Tanya! Tanya!Mary Jo Beth Jojo! Tanya! You've been going to those parties where girls dooral sex for bracelets! That's right!Track 4[43:08] That's right! Of course, Bill Hader again, playing a villainous kind of host.It was a very specific observation about Lifetime movies, Victoria.And I don't know if you've watched a lot of Lifetime movies,but this was painfully accurate i was gonna ask you if you've watched any andif you go back to this they have the old logo.Track 4[43:29] Which is just incredible like that logobrought up a lot of memories from being a young girlwatching lifetime i feel like i was home growing up like being home sick andwhen the price is right was done i'd be flipping channels and maybe somethingridiculous on lifetime would be on and And he would kind of suck me in for like15 to 20 minutes. But I know the beats.So I know the beats of those movies.I know that what was portrayed in the What's Wrong with Tanya sketch is completelyaccurate. He got the archetypes just right.Yes. Yeah, I love the contestants all being the same thing. Yeah.Just like what, the nosy neighbor kind of?Yeah, and they all kind of look like Martha Stewart. Stewart.You're right. I didn't pick up on that. Yeah, they were just,it was the same person in different font.Like, each contestant, like, they were all blonde, they were all wearing thesame shades of pink and cream, same personality.It was, and I'm like, yeah, that's, those are the people watching Lifetime. And maybe even...Even some of the characters in Lifetime movies. You're right.Yeah, he also is poking fun at the viewers of these movies as well.I can definitely see that. My favorite part is when Andy Samberg comes out.Track 4[44:49] But it can happen to a boy. So you thought. All right, mothers,what's wrong with boy Tanya?Tanya. Oh, no. Boy Tanya. What's wrong with boy Tanya? Boy Tanya.Boy Tanya. Boy Tanya. Major William. Tanya, you're a secret stripper. No.Tanya you're pregnant what no come on tanya your english teacher caught youcheating so he made you take naked pictures and now they're online and it'sgiving you an eating disorder and also you can't read.Track 4[45:25] I don't know calling him boy tanya is justsuch like a mulaney like chef's kiss kind of touch tome and guessing that he's pregnant like yeahand then bill hater's like what no and then they justgotta move on yeah and like saidwhat was it what was ended up happening with him somethingabout seeing something that left him with an eatingdisorder or something yeah he had an eating disorder and something yeah i'llyeah i'll go i'll go play back but i'll go play back for sure yeah but thatwas just such such great beats in this though the winning contestant does thethe lightning round while the other two contestants watch while pretending to rake leaves.That's like such a specific observation that, that he threw into this.It's so perfect. It's so, I'm going to say this a lot.It's so Mulaney. This whole thing. I love at the end, um, he grabs her.She's like, you're hurting me. Who's going to believe you?Yeah. You're not, you're not going anywhere. You'll never leave me.And those are classic lifetime movie. Yeah.Track 4[46:27] Lines yeah mulaney again so goodabout mining for the specificity insomething and really highlighting it andthe absurdity that comes with it that's like that'swhy i love mulaney truth be told he's myfavorite working comedian right now like stand-up wisebecause of these little things because ofthe way he structures things and observes things and andpresents thing so he Mulaney is my favoritestand-up comedian right now he has the championship beltfor me wow I don'tknow if that's that's a that's a big claim it's abig claim I know I stand by it you standup by it no oh geez somethingelse that I stand by thishappened happened actually uh when he washosting but it was such a millennia thing oneof the one of my favorite sketches of the pastfew years and i don't know i haven't really talked to a ton of people aboutthis one um and i think you said you watched it it's the monkey judge one yesfrom season 47 i think that this is like to me this almost structurally is likea perfect sketch Your Honor,it is obvious that you're favoring the defense. That is ridiculous.Your Honor, I love Judge.Track 4[47:53] I love you. I love Judge.You are baby. Judge, love baby. Bring Judge, baby. Judge, love you. Judge, favor defense.Oh, come on. Yeah, we move to request a new judge.Are you suggesting that I'm not competent? confident tango made these piecesmatch sure it was a bit of trial and error but i did it i won the juice.Track 4[48:23] You don't have to think it's like a perfect sketch but what did you what wereyour impressions of it well one i want someone to love me as much as you lovejohn mulaney my goodness no that was a very very funny sketch.And I think, again, something we've been saying and will continue to say aboutJohn Mulaney are, it's this attention to detail and picking up on everyday things and those,little details of the everyday things and bringing them up and presenting them to us, right?Oh, yeah. A lot of it's like, oh, yeah, I never thought about that.It's a lot of what I think when I watch and listen to his stuff.It's like, oh, yeah, that's exactly what they do.You know, talking about how, you know, in this sketch, oh, he's smiling.No, he's just like showing his teeth to assert dominance.Like those specific details or, you know, blue shape, blah, blah, blah.Track 4[49:24] Just pointing out those specific things is what works for him.And it's very smart, right? Yeah.He's able to describe those things that I wouldn't be able to describe.Yeah. A lot of people wouldn't. And he has a great way of, again,pulling the very minute and blowing it up to make it funny.And I think that's what worked in this sketch. And it was about monkeys, right?We all have seen monkeys. monkeys but he but he wasable to one personify that that monkeyand also you know put infront of us how monkeys act and what that wouldlook like in a in a courtroom essentially yeah it'salmost like i had when i was done watching the sketch i had justfinished watching like a documentary on monkeys because i felt likei learned so much but it was also veryfunny just funny acute observations like when hewas when melissa via senor she played the character that thatgot injured by uh by somebody's petmonkey and she was talkingabout they asked her the question like what kind of hat were youwearing and she's like i usually wear a bucket hat but i was wearing a differenthat and then as the monkey judge he's like so let me get this straight you approachthis person as a completely different shape and you expect or you approach thismonkey as a completely different shape and you expected him to be just be coolabout that like yeah like No, that's so funny.Track 4[50:49] So was this a new hat? Well, I usually wear an orange bucket hat,but I was wearing a green baseball cap.Track 4[50:56] Yeah. Which is, you know. You thought the monkey would just be cool with this?You were completely different. Yeah.Track 4[51:02] That's fair. He gets mad at Keenan. He's like, I will now throw sand at you to show dominance.And he like tossed sand at him. like this yeah it was just soagain very mulaney to have likethe behavioral traits of a monkey but presentthem as very human in acourtroom setting i don't know i was like blownaway by this sketch when i saw it i thought it was so smartand i thought the structure was great shout out simon rich and please don'tdestroy who also were helped with this but this is a recent recent sketch itwas from season 40 it was two seasons ago season 47 yeah i'm just like i wasjust like really honestly blown away by like the writing of this sketch,so what else would you like to bring up victoria i've already i expressed mylove for monkey judge so i think i'd like kind of tap out on that and spareeverybody my complete like maybe we'll do a bonus one an hour and a half episodeof me just breaking down monkey judge but is there anything else from melanie that you want to bring up,I feel like we're going to have to bring up one of the musicals,either Diner Lobster or Bodega Bathroom. I think that's kind of essential.Which one? Okay, which one's your favorite out of the musicals?And we'll talk about that one.Bodega Bathroom. Hey man, do you have a bathroom?Track 4[52:24] A what? A bathroom, like a bathroomI could use? Dude, did you just ask to use a bathroom in a bodega?I mean, what? Who cares? It's an emergency.Would you like the key to the bathroom? Charlie, yo, if you do this,I don't think we can be friends anymore, man.Dude, relax. It's just a bathroom. I'm sure it's fine. It's a cinder block, bro.And so it shall be. Oh, Bodega Cat! Show this man to the bathroom.I never watched Les Mis, so... Me neither.Really? Really? Yeah, I'm not really. We had to kind of read it,I think, in high school. Was it Les Mis? Yeah.Yeah. But I never, I don't really remember it. But I felt like I remembered it.Like, it still felt familiar, them doing Les Mis in this sketch.I'm going to tell you how uncultured I am right now, Thomas.I don't even really know what Les Mis is about. Something about French.French war. A French something happened.You don't have to sell me on you being uncultured, Victoria.I already know. So it's fine.So Thomas, I like your humor because it's nonchalant and you don't need to try hard.Like you just slip it in and it's part of your everyday like speech.And I don't know if you've intended it this way, but I'm taking that as a compliment.It is. It is a compliment.Track 4[53:51] Thank you, Victoria. Because you don't shift your tone. You just say it as you would anything else.That's the Mulaney you think about me. I don't know. Yeah. I just have to thinktwice. I'm like, did he? No, this is a joke. Yeah.Which makes it funnier. No, we can talk about Bodega Bathroom.Yeah. Yeah. So remind us what the beats, kind of the beats of Bodega Bathroom.So one, I want to shout out that I don't see Pete Davidson as a musical type guy.I can't see him, you know, watching Anything Goes, Kinky Boots, Wicked.I can't see him watching those things. But I don't know him.I don't know him personally.I've only met him once for a solid second and a half on his 21st birthday, I should tell you.And his 21st birthday was nine years ago. So I do not know Pete Davidson.I just know what the media has told me. And they're not telling me much here.Nonetheless, I love that he's in, he's the center.Track 4[54:58] Both of these pieces, the diner lobster and bodega bathroom, is just a weird fit.But essentially, Pete Davidson asked the bodega owner to use the bathroom,which then sets off a musical chain of events, revealing a secret.As all these musical sketches do, he did five in a row.From seasons 43 to 47, he hosted five times, and this was like a staple of these episodes.Episodes so uh so yeah bodega bathroom colinjost and gary richardson it'sworth a close oh that was a colin jost yeah colinwell wow one of the stories about these musicals isthat mulaney and jost when they were both onthe writing staff they tried to get diner lobsteron in like 2010 or somethinglike a long time ago and they could just.Track 4[55:50] Never get it on for whatever reason i think mulaney maybe said thatit didn't play well uh at the pitch meetingor whatever so it never got past that leveluh but when mulaney hosted heand jost were like yeah we got to get this on let's try toget diner lobster let's do it so that's what that's likethe genesis of these musical sketches was them trying toget diner lobster on when they were writers and itdidn't happen so yeah so jost isdefinitely like huge part of these as well iwas gonna say i did not know that yeah that's agood surprise you he's not he's not justa pretty punchable face oh yeah wellhe dubbed himself that so he did his words not minethat's on him yeah um no ii didn't know that that was i just thought ithought john mulaney loved musicals ithink he does i think he has the spirit of atheater kid does that make sense yes likehe was very even in his stand-up he's very he speaks to the back of the audiencehe's very dramatic in his presentation and it's very theatrical yes so thisdoesn't surprise me that he would want to do theater musical based based sketches.I also, so I'm not a huge musical girly myself. Like I love some musicals.I did musicals in high school.Track 4[57:16] Or was at least part of them. But I do try to put musicals on stage.Track 4[57:24] I try to do musical style stuff. I don't know. We'll talk about that later another day. But yeah.Yeah. Harnessing your John Mulaney energy with that.I'm consistently harnessing the John Mulaney energy. That's good energy to be harnessed.This is like a celebration. This is a loose kind of episode,I suppose, because it fits john mulaney it's very uhjust a very celebratory i likei feel when i did that when i went and did research and notresearch when i reached rewatch stuff for this itjust always it just put me in a good mood it put me in like a greatheadspace because just mulaney has thatability he has that touch and that's whyyou know we we've gone through herb welch coach stefan what's that name someof the one-off stuff like like monkey judge the great great monkey judge uhwhat's wrong with tanya mentioned his musicals like that's a quite the hall of fame.Track 4[58:24] Resume wouldn't you say victoria like if youwere a writer on snl would you not be proud to have all ofthat on your resume absolutely i think there'salso a component here in that this boygot range like he has it's avariety of stuff you know stefan is astandalone character that they've done some they've puthim in a sketch or two but then he was a stand-up youknow a recurring character you know uh gameshows musicals andthen of course your your average sketches thatyou're putting on here on on the on the showi think it speaks to the varietythat he brings even though it's aMulaney style sketch and you can tell whenhe's you know had a part in it he still brings somea few different things to the table and Ithink that's really impressive and I qualifies him for the hallof fame and not only that you know peoplelove John Mulaney even if they're not watching SNL they'rewatching his stand-up or they know about him orthey know that he's had an impact on SNL through his writing and they can tellyou anyone can tell you hey John Mulaney did this they're very aware too he'sa likable person and I know he you know says likability is a jail but I think.Track 4[59:47] Just calling it out. He's been through a few things in the last couple years.And I commend him for getting back up on his feet.And I don't know his journey well enough to judge and I'm not going to I wouldnever I would never be able to judge a situation like that.But I think he's done an excellent job of reclaiming himself and his comedyand kind of reintroducing himself to the world as, hey, I'm not this perfect,you know, button up guy, I do have some flaws.And I think he shows that in Baby J. But even in Baby J., though it was differentfrom his past work, was still funny and still called out those details and thespecifics and, you know, the mundane things.And he was able to do it in his own way.And people, I think, just appreciate that about him.And there's no, he really is the comeback kid, is what I'll say.And I think his his work speaks for itself.Even if you didn't know his name, you know, his sketches, you know,everyone knows who Stefan is. Stefan is a beloved.I think Stefan in and of itself qualifies him for, for the hall of fame.Track 2[1:01:12] So there's that. Victoria, Thomas, you really brought it. You left it all out there.And I got to say, I'm going to be shocked if Mulaney doesn't make it into the hall one way or another.He's going to be on the ballot in two categories this time, which is unprecedented here in the hall.Now, I want to circle back on something Victoria talked about right toward theend when she mentioned Stefan. And we are going to listen to a Stefan sketch now.This is Trademark, Hater, and Mulaney.They play off each other and feed one another so well.And Stefan, like Victoria mentioned, is beloved at this point.He's probably a top 10 maybe even top 5 character I forget what the SNN cameup with when they did characters but he's got to be right up there,so let me not dilly dally any further and let's get to Stefan on Weekend Update.Track 5[1:02:26] It's Christmas time in New York which means millions of tourists will be comingto see what holiday magic the Big Apple has to offer.Here with some tips on where you and your children should go is our city correspondent, Stefan.Hi. Hi. Hi, Stefan. It's an exciting time, isn't it? I know,right? So many Republican candidates. Who do you pick?Okay, so, Stefan, a lot of families are making their way to Manhattan to havesome holiday fun. Are there any places you can recommend?Yes, yes, yes, yes. If you're looking to get festive with your family,I've got the perfect place for you. New York's hottest club is Hay.Built from the bucket li

This week we welcome Jonathan Hornell-Kennedy from Canada's Framework Bikes. Jonathan is a relative newcomer to the world of bicycle framebuilding, but his background in manufacturing and design supporting the aerospace industry provided him with some unique skills and insights he brings to his craft. Jonathan sheds light on his entry into custom bike building, sharing the evolution of his process. He explains the meticulous method behind the creation of his unique carbon fiber tubes and aluminum lugs. We delve into what makes these bikes versatile on various terrains, and the challenges and decision-making involved in custom builds. Jonathan also touches on the struggles of establishing his brand within the competitive bike industry.  The conversation rounds off with discussions about the future of Frameworks. Join us for an insightful conversation, as we delve deeper into the fascinating world of custom bike building.  Framework Bikes Instagram Episode sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (Use code: TheGravelRide for free HRM) Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: [00:00:00]Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. [00:00:25]Craig Dalton (Host): This week on the broadcast. I bring you Jonathan Cornell Kennedy from frameworks out of Canada. You might've heard Jonathan briefly on the podcast. When I did one of my made bicycle show recap shows. I was captivated by his designs at the show as they were relatively unique amongst the field of titanium and steel welded bicycles. I'd been familiar with lugged carbon construction from a number of other builders along the years, but I hadn't seen his particular approach. And after following him on Instagram, which I definitely recommend you do, I became a NABARD with the manufacturing process. So I was excited to have him back on board to learn a little bit more about his history. He's a relative newcomer to the world of bicycling, which I think always yields interesting and innovative approaches to things. That's builders who have been around forever. Might not care to revisit as an approach. . So. I'm excited to have this conversation before we jump in. I do need to thank this week sponsor hammer had, and the hammer had Caru to computer. Maybe you've been thinking about updating your gravel cycling GPS computer. This time of year, the hammer head crew two is the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today. With industry leading mapping navigation and routing capabilities that set it apart for other GPS options, it has free global maps with points of interest included like cafes and campsites. So you can explore with confidence and on the go flexibility. One of the things I always talk about when talking about my hammerhead crew too. Is the ongoing software updates that they ship. You never have to feel left behind from a new feature coming out in the world because the team at hammerhead are always looking to improve. The device, the climber feature is one that I always call out as it notably has this predictive path technology. Which lets you visualize for the upcoming gradient changes in real time, whether without a root loaded. That is something that I particularly lean on when I'm doing. An event in terrain that I don't. I have familiarity with, or I'm on some sort of adventure ride for me. I really just love to see what's ahead of me in the climb. So I can just think about my cadence and effort level. Et cetera. The other big update that I saw come through was around this new e-bike integration, which brings detailed battery usage data right onto this. The display. As the new owner of N E MTB, I'm excited to explore this feature. Because I do have a bit of range anxiety. So having those battery details right in the display unit. By which you can access via a specific persona on the head unit. So I can switch between things I need on an e-bike ride versus things I need on a traditional gravel ride. Anyway, I encourage you to give. The Karoo to a look right now, our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of our hammerhead kuru two. Just visit hammerhead.io right now and use the promo code, the gravel ride at checkout today. This is an exclusive offer for my listeners. So don't forget that promo code, the gravel ride. You'll get a free heart rate monitor with your purchase of our crew to just go to hammerhead.io today at both items to your cart and use that promo code, the gravel ride. With that business behind us, let's jump right in to my conversation with Jonathan. Jonathan. Welcome to the show. I'm excited to have this conversation after we originally connected at the maid show in Portland, Oregon. Super cool. I thought your product was one of the more. Interesting products I saw in the entire show. So I'm stoked to give the listeners a little bit more insight as to your background and what frameworks is all about. [00:04:26]Jonathan: Thanks for saying that. That's nice of you. Um, yeah, it's kind of a tired story at this point. Someone with a passion in bikes and who makes things for a living decides to combine those two of their life and see what happens. [00:04:40]Craig Dalton (Host): Jonathan, where'd you grow up and how did you discover cycling in the first place? [00:04:45]Jonathan: so I'm, uh, native Southern Ontarian, uh, up here in Canada. I was born in Toronto and have lived within a few hours of Toronto my entire life. Um, so, started biking, just, you know, when you're, Parents kind of teach you how to ride a two wheeler kind of thing in the school field. Well, I was probably like six or seven at that point, um, and we moved out of the city when I was seven and into a more, well, we were still in a town, but I would say a more suburban kind of town. So biking around the neighborhoods and going to see your friends and stuff, kind of a little bit of escaping mom and dad's supervision. Uh, and then just started kind of. Like, loosely mountain biking. I had like a giant hardtail for my whole, like, biking career from age 12 to when I left for university. Um, so, you know, go on, jump off of stuff, try and jump over logs, whatever, you know, just being a goof with buddies, and then in university, I, um, that was like, what, early 2000s, um, there was kind of like, the original fixie craze, I feel like [00:05:57]Craig Dalton (Host): It comes in waves [00:05:59]Jonathan: but, so I started riding a fixie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. It's cyclical, I'm sure. Um, so I started riding a fixie then to get around town, and that was the last bike I purchased before I made one for myself, I studied, uh, a somewhat esoteric field of statistics called, like, uh, financial math. So it was taught in the Department of Statistics and Actuarial Sciences at the university I went to, so that's like the people who do insurance math. Basically figuring out how much your life insurance policy should cost based on, you know, statistics and market values and things like that. So, um, yeah, so I was at school for quite a while. I, seven years, I think. Um, studying that I have a master's degree in it and then ended up doing nothing with that degree, uh, in practical use, like I should have been working as like a finance math kind of guy, you know, so didn't really [00:07:05]Craig Dalton (Host): And then you had mentioned, you know, you had that fixed gear bike that was the only one you had and the next one was one you built yourself. That's for most of us. That's quite a massive leap and journey. What was going on there? I mean, you had, you develop sort of a passion for the sport of cycling. Was it more the idea of frame building and how did you even begin to acquire the skills to manufacture your first bike? [00:07:30]Jonathan: Yeah, so that, that's maybe where the academic journey ends and then what I've done to earn a living, uh, commenced after that. Um, I, my wife and I own and operate a machine shop and, um, what we started the business with was, um, again, another esoteric thing, uh, pattern making is what it's called. And that's the, the trade that is involved with making the tools that foundries [00:07:58]Craig Dalton (Host): And how did, [00:07:59]Jonathan: castings. [00:08:00]Craig Dalton (Host): I'm curious, Jonathan. So how did, I mean, how did you even see that as an opportunity? Did either of you have, you know, ties into the manufacturing world to begin with? [00:08:10]Jonathan: Yeah, absolutely. So my dad is a mechanical engineer by education, and he owns and operates a company that, um, basically repairs, refurbishes, remakes large industrial pumps. Um So they, they oftentimes begin life as a casting, like a large chunk of, uh, iron or steel or bronze, whatever it might be. So when I was done university and kind of doing a little bit of soul searching, a friend of mine who's a few years older and was sort of, um, not thrilled with the job he had, I would say, or maybe that's not the right way to say it, but was looking for a change, um, He is, uh, he's a civil engineer by training and approached my dad cause he knew he was self employed and said, uh, Hey Pat, what do you think of like going out on my own? Got any ideas? I'm pretty handy guy. And my dad said to him, like, Hey, I think you should look into pattern making. The guys are all old. You really can't go to school to learn that stuff. It's all sort of apprenticeship based and they're kind of phasing out their businesses, you know? Um, so there could be an opportunity there. So Stefan, my friend, and I, um, I took like a night class at a local community college to learn how to do 3D modeling and was kind of pretty handy with SolidWorks. And the modern way of making patterns is to use CNC machines to carve 3D shapes, typically out of like blocks of foam or wood or, uh, tooling board, it's called, which is like a hard plastic. And those objects that you create are what the foundry uses to create their sand molds. So picture like a cast iron frying pan. The way that's made is they melt iron in a pot and they pour it into a mold that's made out of sand and the mold has the shape of the iron, uh, the cast iron frying pan inside of it. So my obligation or sort of the service that we offered was not only to produce the tooling, but I was also. You have to design it to work for the foundry. So, uh, cast iron frying pan is a relatively simple object, but we got, over the years, as my skill set grew, got involved with, um, some relatively complicated castings for, like, world leading Aerospace foundries. And, um, so yeah, Stefan and I ran the business together for about a year, year and a bit. He was living in a different, like he lived in Toronto property. We're in Hamilton, which is about an hour outside. And, um, he had, uh, his first kid in that time. And I was like super hungry to get the business going. And so we were kind of on different paces and there's a little bit of friction that resulted because of that. So we parted ways and then. We're still good friends, but, um, I kind of ran the business on my own and then my wife, Elise, came on, um, as we started to grow a bit, move facilities, and then started to expand more out of just pattern making to do, um, machining as well, which is, a lot of times, foundries have these metal castings that they produce that are relatively intricate shapes that need some more precise operations carried out on them. Um, you could, like, an example might be, like, an engine block in a car or turbocharger, like, objects that people, like, think of more readily than some other things I got involved with. So you've got this object that's relatively crude when it comes out of the foundry, and it might need a bearing put in it or threads added so you could bolt it together. So that, that's an operation that typically happens in some sort of machining setup. So we had this customer base of all these foundries that trusted us to make these relatively complicated things like patterns are, are big, like organic shapes, lots of 3D things that need to be accurate and go together and work. Um, so it was a pretty easy thing for us to say to them, Hey, you know, he trusts us to do this. Would you allow us to machine your castings for you? Like, can we quote on that work? And the idea for us there was, um, kind of more repeat business. The thing about, uh, uh, pattern tool, uh, is you only make one of them. Hopefully the customer is not coming back to you for another one right away, because the idea with a mold or a tool or something of that nature is that it costs a lot of money to make, but it allows you to make a ton of parts. Um, so think of that as like a mold for a carbon fiber frame. It's the same kind of idea. You've got this thing that costs a lot of money is really complicated, but it allows you to put, uh, a basic material into it and get [00:12:39]Craig Dalton (Host): And then you're in your example of like the engine block, they would have pulled something out of the mold that was a bit rough around the edges, maybe not as precise as it needed to be to fit. You would bring it back into your CNC capabilities and really use the tool to, to make precise edges and cuts and shapes around the basic block. [00:13:01]Jonathan: exactly. [00:13:01]Craig Dalton (Host): Gotcha. [00:13:03]Jonathan: Yeah. And like a lot of that stuff would have happened more historically in the, the cycling industry when they used a lot of investment castings for lugs and things like that, or, you know, a lot of that type of product has moved away, like, um, in favor of probably more cost competitive and superior products. Uh, but yeah, like, uh, there would have been a whole bunch of examples. I'm sure old shift levers and things like that die castings [00:13:28]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, I remember. [00:13:29]Jonathan: um. The, you get a [00:13:31]Craig Dalton (Host): remember in the early days of mountain biking, the wave of CNC machined parts that came out, preferably color anodized that were all the rage at the time. [00:13:41]Jonathan: Yeah. [00:13:42]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. [00:13:43]Jonathan: Yeah. So it's, so that's sort of the, the story on, and then we got involved in injection molding and doing, um, work for the government during COVID to make PCR testing consumables, uh, so that involved like some pretty complicated work in terms of reverse engineering, um, yeah, plastic components, getting a clean room set up, [00:14:05]Craig Dalton (Host): And what was that additional equipment that you invested in at the time? [00:14:09]Jonathan: Yeah. So we were, we got a grant from the government to set it up. Uh, so we had to put some capital into it for sure. That's how it worked, but you know, we felt like we're definitely doing the right thing when North America was kind of running out of those parts. The whole world was running out of them because when, when did like they ever see a demand spike like that in terms of lab consumables, right? So, uh, yeah, we got that up and running and then. worked our butts off for two years to make it all happen. And then that's kind of what I would say gave me the financial [00:14:44]Craig Dalton (Host): So that's that brings us to maybe what 2000 2022. [00:14:48]Jonathan: yeah, honestly, man, the whole pandemic is a blur in sort of timelines. Yeah, I think so. That sounds about right. Um, yeah, I would say July of 2022 is when we shipped our last part, um, to fulfill the order to the government. And, um, yeah, [00:15:06]Craig Dalton (Host): And was there a driver behind you saying like, Oh, I want to make a bike? Had you like increased your cycling during the pandemic? Yeah. [00:15:15]Jonathan: So it's another pandemic story of, I'm sure you remember trying to buy bike stuff. Um, so yeah, the, the, all along, I've been, I've always had a passion for making things, right? Like, using my hands to create an object, like I, like, when I was in school, I worked in, like, fine dining restaurants, like, 40 hours a week. That was kind of my first form of, you know, trading my time for money in terms of making things. Uh, so the, the shop that I've built up over the years, I've got some really nice equipment. I've paid for it all out of cash flow by doing other people's work. And I've always wanted a product line of my own stuff. Um, not that I don't like working with other people and you're certainly exposed to a lot of really interesting and challenging problems to solve when other people are bringing you their stuff. But it's a bit of a, like, you know, everybody's got masters, even when I started making my own product, I've got to sell it now. So that's a whole other thing. But, um, yeah, it's a bit of a, always wanted to make something and I've always been into bikes. So that's why I was saying earlier, kind of combine those two things. And the big push was, um, yeah, just not being able to buy a new bike during the pandemic. I was riding [00:16:28]Craig Dalton (Host): and given the equipment that you had in hand at that time, can you describe the bike that you were able to make? [00:16:35]Jonathan: yeah, well, uh, I had originally thought like I'm watching Cobra frameworks as Or yeah, Cobra frame buildings, YouTube channel, how to weld a bike. And I ordered a bunch of chromoly tubing. I've got welding equipment here and milling machines. So I was like, I'm going to just make myself a bike and that's it, right? Like that's going to be, it'll be very, it'll be a piece of junk because I'm not that good at welding and I've never done one before, but the, it'll be the thing that I made and I'm riding it. And that's cool. Um, and then the tube shot sat on the shelf for like two years. Because it's like, it's not, that's not what I do, right? That's not my, it felt like too fussy. I was going to have to be like sitting at a welding table, filing things. So the bike that I decided to make was, um, a format that is gaining popularity right now with the advent of 3d printing, which is a lugged. construction frame where the lugs are alloy and I'm using carbon fiber tubes. So, um, I had actually originally, like I'm really good at 3d modeling. That's one of my main skill sets. So designing the bike took like a day, less than that. And then I was going to have the lugs printed, like 3d printed, like everyone else is doing. It's a pretty, um, in comparison to CNC machine shops that could produce a part like that. In terms of intricacy, it's relatively easy to find vendors that do 3D printing as a job shopping service. Like, that's kind of the main [00:18:03]Craig Dalton (Host): And are those, are those, uh, 3d printing? Are they printing in titanium or aluminum or both? Okay. [00:18:10]Jonathan: both, there's stainless steels, there's all sorts of alloys coming out, there's different forms of printing. And then we, because we do aerospace work, like we had our aerospace designation working with foundries and machine shops that do that type of stuff. Um, we're involved with some of the like, Canadian leaders in terms of operating that equipment and having those processes validated. So I sent them to the engineers and they said you're not actually going to ride that thing. Are you? I was like, what are you talking about? I was like, yeah, I'm going to write it. And like, well, I don't know if we would like, what do you mean? And that's when I started to like do a bit more research into, um, the metallurgy of 3d prints and would have needed to beef them up more than I thought to get it to work. But the main thing that [00:18:56]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Cause I often, when I see companies using the 3d printing, it's often. around the rear dropout. They might highlight that they're doing it back there, but I don't recall of anybody doing a head tube, for example, in the 3D printing style. [00:19:11]Jonathan: most head tubes on bikes that are logged with 3D prints, they actually segment a piece of carbon in there, um, in between, or a piece of titanium pipe and weld it at the two ends, because that particular shape might actually exceed the build volume of some printers. It's not that they, cost wise it doesn't make sense, it's that it, you're literally talking about a little microwave oven. [00:19:33]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. [00:19:34]Jonathan: to cram all the lugs into there. Um, and it's the build volume might be like nine, 10 inches cubed. So if you've got a head tube in there, that's, you know, for a taller person, it just won't even fit. So yeah, there was the, the structural element is one thing it can be overcome. The, what floored me was the cost. Um, these guys are like, often engineers are also in gear guys, right? And they're into cars and biking and stuff like that. So a lot of them knew of these brands that are doing it. And they're kind of saying like, uh, I don't know. We can't with our own cost structure on what it costs to operate these machines. And kind of how long it takes to print something. We don't get it. So then I kind of went, okay, you know what? For that amount of money, um, that we're talking just to build myself a bike. I can, I can just take a couple. Blocks of aluminum that I have on the shelf and sacrifice a few days of my life to see if I can machine them Um, so I made myself a fixie that that was the first bike and I just bought Carbon tubes from McMaster car like carbon fiber tube. McMaster car is like, uh, I don't know the Amazon of industrial Ordering so they're they're awesome. They've got everything next day shipping kind of thing. So I got all this stuff and I glued the thing up manually and then I started riding it around, um, around town and going out to group rides, which I hadn't done before. And people started asking questions about it. You know, most bike people are, they pay attention to stuff like that, whether it's a saddle bike they would ever ride themselves. Maybe not the case, but They know, right? And like, everyone's got [00:21:07]Craig Dalton (Host): your bicycles have a very distinct look that is going to get people to ask questions. And for the listener, maybe who hasn't, isn't able to kind of visualize what a lugged construction looks like, you've got the head tube. With a little bit of kind of aluminum coming out for the down tube and the top tube, you've got another lug and bottom bracket set up in a similar fashion. And similarly around the C tube and the rear stay and the carbon fiber tube basically goes inside that aluminum, that lug as we're talking about, and is bonded together in some way to kind of. Create the frame that's somewhat accurate. Jonathan, [00:21:47]Jonathan: I think that's a pretty [00:21:48]Craig Dalton (Host): I've never thought about describing lugs to someone in their ears. Not looking at a picture [00:21:53]Jonathan: Yeah, like, Colagno, Cologno? I don't know how to say the name properly. Like, even their carbon fi Colnago. There you go. They're, they're, uh, Their carbon fiber bikes are logged. So just like there's a step, like most bikes, carbon fiber bikes are made in multiple pieces. They just seen them and sand them and you don't see it because it's under the paint or they might do clear coat [00:22:13]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, exactly. [00:22:14]Jonathan: wrap or something. But yeah, anyways, there's a bit of a step and it's, yeah. The, and the, and the first bike, I, it's like bright aluminum. I just left it raw. I didn't put any of the, um, kind of plating that we do on the ones you would have seen. And I use like a more old school looking carbon fiber with like the checkered weave. So it's like quite, um, yeah. And it's built like a steel bike, like skinny tubes, like I think inch and an eighth or inch and a quarter down tube. Like, uh, yeah, so it was, so I started riding it around and people were saying like, Hey, you know, like go look at, then they list brands X, Y, and Z. Go look at those guys and what they're charging for a bike. And I thought like, holy cow, like that's, uh, that's, I could do this again and charge less than that and make a pretty good go of it. Um, so that's when I kind of went like, okay, maybe I should try to spend a bit more time not doing it as a one off, but think about how I would build it with the skill set and resources that I have at my disposal and to kind of rethink the construction methodology a bit. So, as much as my bike is like a object at the end, what I'm, what I really focus on when I'm thinking about the bike is, Everything that goes into making it and optimizing the design so that it can produce the best possible result, uh, in a really predictable manner [00:23:36]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. And in riding that first fixed gear bike and using those off the shelf carbon fiber tubes. Did you kind of recognize something in the tubing that left something to be desired? [00:23:47]Jonathan: Um, are you, is this like leading towards why I started making my own tubes? Yeah, um, so yeah, they're, they're roll wrapped, so that's a process where you take sheets of pre pranked cloth and picture like rolling pastry on a rolling pin. You've got a 2D sheet on your table and you roll it over. Um, so you're kind of at the, like, you're constrained to what the fabric itself will allow you to do in terms of laying the fiber in certain orientations and what resin is already in it. Um. So it's, it makes a more limited tube in terms of strength, but honestly, the main motivating factor for me starting to wind the tubes in house was that sourcing stuff in Canada can be problematic for a relatively small economy, you know, and like, there's the border. So every, all these tubes that I had access to were coming out of the States, I'm paying import duties on them. I'm paying in a currency that's worth a lot more than ours. So when I looked at what it was going to cost me to buy a set of tubes from Rockwest, which is what I made the first bunch of bikes with, like I was working with them on the tubing, um, I just thought like, okay, maybe I can, if the whole idea is to try to optimize the process and drive costs down a bit, I thought I got to do this in house, right? Like the, the tubes were costing me a lot more than the aluminum that goes into the bike. And that's like aerospace grade coming from a certified mill with traceability certs. And you know, it's. Good stuff. So, um, then there's the option of like when you're using, or option, that's the wrong word, sorry, there, there's the limitation that when you're buying an off the shelf product, you're constrained to how that is made, right? So the tubes I could have spec'd out to Rockwest, like, Hey, could you make me the tubes with this recipe? And they'd say, yes. But one thing I wanted to maintain, um, as wide open the variable set as possible was like making bikes customizable. Right? So like, say you're talking to a, a frame builder that's using any type of alloy. They're at the mercy of what tubes they can buy. They can't tune beyond that, right? They can maybe squish them a little bit or change the shape of them to get some different bending compliance in them, but the material is what it is. Um, so it, with internalizing the tube manufacturing, I've got a considerable amount of control over making the tubes behave differently. Um, so it looks like a fairly basic bike in profile. It looks kind of as like a classical shape in terms of if you overlaid a welded steel bike over it, they'd almost look the same, right? Like, I use a relatively large down tube, but, um, but I wanted, like, I, I think carbon fiber is an excellent material, but to produce a carbon fiber bike in a traditional sense. Um, you need a mold and then you're not doing custom geometry at that point, right? So I wanted to maintain the ability for every bike to be both custom geometry and have a lot of the benefits of [00:26:42]Craig Dalton (Host): Can you describe what the filament wound carbon fiber, what's that process like? [00:26:47]Jonathan: Yeah, so instead of roll wrapping where you're taking prepreg sheets, um, you have a machine, it's like a CNC machine that I built. Um, that operates like a lathe, so a lathe is where you have a spinning thing on a single axis rotating and something tracing back and forth along it. So, I've got a mandrel that's spinning and I, uh, like a spool of carbon fiber is on this carriage and it goes back and forth and I can basically roll or wind the single strand of carbon fiber onto this tube. So I, I got to do the math again. I did it a few months ago and I forget the number, but I think to make a tube set for a bike, there's like 20, 000 linear feet. that I lay up in a really precise manner. Um, so we build up the tube in layers and we can have different layers for different tubes, different rider thicknesses. And then what the winder allows me to do is put the fiber down in different orientations. So like, I'm not, I don't have to buy prepreg fabric from someone where it's only unidirectional, it's only. 45 or 90. Um, I can go any angle I want and put down as much or as little as I want in certain areas, and that's all done [00:28:00]Craig Dalton (Host): that sort of pastry analysis, uh, comparison you used, is there the equivalent of the rolling pin inside that you remove at the end after it's sort of wound into shape? [00:28:11]Jonathan: yeah. So our, that's where our process is differentiated once again, from people who roll wrap is I don't cure on the mandrel. So most production roll wrapping places or other frame builder, or sorry, um, filament wound tubes, what they do is they have a really precise rod that they wind onto, the mandrel, and then whether it's, you can use, so just to really muddy this a bit more, you can use two forms of fiber to it. You can have prepreg fiber, so it's a single strand with the resin already in it. Or you can do what I'm doing, which is wet winding, where I buy dry spools of fiber, and then I'm mixing my own resin, um, and the fiber gets wetted on the way to the mandrel. Um, both systems require a cure cycle after to set the resin, but with the prepreg toe, you're subjected to the same constraints that prepreg is in terms of, you know, needing to store the stuff in the freezer. It has a shelf life. You've got no say over the resin whatsoever. Um. So for us, I can mix and match the recipe for whatever I want. We use some really high performance resins and that's something that I think, you know, the bike industry doesn't talk a lot about. They talk about the fiber. I've got Toray T1100 in my frame or Ultra High Mod in my frame here, but no one talks about the stuff that actually holds it all together, which is [00:29:28]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. I've never heard of it beyond a technical discussion. [00:29:31]Jonathan: so we spent a lot of time [00:29:32]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Yeah. I would say, I would say I would encourage the listener while they're listening to this in their earphones to go onto your Instagram account because a lot of this discussion will become more visual. If you start looking through some of the framework bikes, Instagram stories, you'll get sucked into this process and everything Jonathan's saying will come together visually for you. [00:29:54]Jonathan: I appreciate the plug. So I think the question I'm taking a really long time to answer is like, what happens once the fiber is on the rod? Most places, what they do is to get some amount of consolidation is they wrap tape over it once it's on the mandrel. Kind of like wrapping a hockey stick or a golf club grip or a tennis racket or whatever. So they've got an additional head that has what looks like packing tape and they pull on it kind of hard and then try and wrap, wrap it under tension to consolidate that fiber down onto the mandrel. Then that whole thing goes in an oven. Some guys will vacuum bag it depending on what you're doing. So that means they put a big plastic sleeve over it and pull vacuum on the sleeve. So that'll give you, I think it works out to about 14 PSI of consolidation, um, and then, then they have to remove the rod from the carbon fiber once it's cured, pull it out the end, and you're left with your final carbon fiber tube. So what we do that's a little different is, while the fiber is still wet, like the glue, the epoxy glue hasn't set up yet, mandrel, and then I place it into a mold, like a, The mold that has two hemispheres in it. So I slip a bladder inside of it and then, um, expand the fiber into the mold to give it a really accurate shape and much higher consolidation than you can achieve with, um, traditional [00:31:21]Craig Dalton (Host): Interesting. You mentioned you, um, [00:31:24]Jonathan: So that there's, there's a few motivations for that. One is to get like much higher quality product without, because when you're wet winding, um, air and stuff gets worked in. It's really hard to avoid little micro air bubbles and tiny little air bubbles in carbon fiber is what causes the material to break down over time more rapidly. It's if the, if the plastic starts to fatigue, the fibers get overworked and then the thing kind of breaks down. So the higher quality you can make the product coming out of the mold, the longer it's going to last, the better performance you get out of it. The other thing for us is I wanted really accurate. diameter on the outside of the tube because that's how we glue it into the lugs. Um, so if you can imagine the process that I described where you tape the outside of it, you're left with a fairly coarse outer surface on your filament wound tube. So most people have to sand it quite heavily to get it either dimensionally accurate or, you know, looking good. So that's another step I wanted to avoid. Like my whole thing is about trying to minimize the amount of human [00:32:26]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, I think when many of us look around our garages at the carbon fiber frames, uh, clearly like they, they must've been sanded. And then obviously like the paint and everything gets it smoothed over. So you don't see if anybody's seen like a raw construction of a carbon fiber frame, they look a lot rougher around the edges than the finished painted products do. But in your case, there's nowhere to hide. You know, the, the, the product is everything. [00:32:52]Jonathan: You could, like, like you, what you could do to rectify it, and I think some other builders do need to do this, is like, you've got little pinholes everywhere, you've got little wrinkles in the surface, you lay on a clear coat, you mix up your epoxy, or some other finishing agent, you lay it down, and then you sand it. And then you repeat that process three or four times until you've got something that looks really nice, but it's, you can kind of think of it as like the, the mosquito trapped in amber, you know, there's like, your carbon fiber tube is in there, but you have layers of extra resin and clear coat on the outside to make it look pristine, but there's actually a lot of like little plastic and paint on the [00:33:31]Craig Dalton (Host): So we've given the listener a little bit of an understanding of like the process that you go through and all the, your background as a machine shop first, and why you became suited to kind of create these frames with the process you have today, what is a customer engagement look like, how do they work with you? How do you leverage? All of that customization capability you've just described to create a unique ride property for a customer's bike. [00:33:59]Jonathan: That's a question that I don't have a, I don't think I have a satisfying answer to for most people. I'm, I'm coming to this from an extremely technical background where, like, you have to measure and prove everything and, uh, ride feel is totally subjective. You know, there's no, there's no, um, industry standard guidelines for how you test for ride feel. So people will say to me, Oh, I ride your bike. If you could. talk more, or I'd buy a bike from you if you talk more about how it feels and all these things. So my, I would say my thesis on it is that torsional stiffness is really important. So again, coming back, there's so many layers of like, I could go into techie deep dives on everything, but the, the torsional strength you can get from a filament wound product is like exceptionally high. It's how they make, like, really high performing, um, motorsport driveshafts and stuff like that. So, torsion refers to how much twisting the downtube can handle, basically. Um, that's the main structural element there. Uh, so, if you wanted to make an object that had the same strength as our downtube, and sort of, in terms of torsion, they would be really stiff in all your other dimensions, right? It would be an uncomfortable bike to ride. So, I really focus on, um, like, speed and comfort. I would say, uh, you'd think those things might be at odds with one another, but the efficiencies from sort of the bike, not wanting to twist it, like. Yeah, when you pull on the handlebars and push on the bottom bracket, you're trying to torque the down tube, right? So, I can make that strong enough to resist that, that you're not being inefficient during pedaling or riding and you're gonna corner well. But it, it's not unnecessarily stiff in plane, so you don't get like, uh, a chattery feel when you're going over bumps. So, yeah, but I, I don't like, I don't have an answer that I think is satisfying. I, I, I, Honestly, I was researching this last night, going through like academic literature for what places, like, where do you put accelerometers and strain gauges on a bike to try and figure out ride feel? And there's no, there's no answer. And then even if you, even if I come up with a rigorous testing methodology, I say my bike's a seven. Like, what does that mean to you, Craig, when you're going to buy it? Right. So I think within custom frames, the customer is taking a little bit of a risk. Because they can't go to the showroom floor and try my bike, right? And even if they did try my bike, um, that was built for a different rider, there's no guarantee that the one I make is going to be, you know, I'm not a mind reader and a psychic. I don't know how to translate those things. But, um, for people who are very concerned about that, I don't have a satisfying answer. I don't think I can't tell them I can make you exactly what you want. The things we look at are your weight, your riding style. Um, your preferences in terms of stiffness, like just having a sort of verbal conversation about that, and like describe what you're looking for, your power output, like FTP, things like that. Um, yeah, and [00:36:59]Craig Dalton (Host): the challenge with your process that you can make it overly stiff and it's backing it off to the [00:37:06]Jonathan: Uh, no, I don't, I don't think we'd ever be able to, I, I, I maybe could if I redesign things, but no, we're not going to be like, uh, you know, early 2000s, we feel like riding a board. That's like our, our two profiles in a lot of places are slender, our chainstays are small, they're strong, they're very strong. But, um, you know, I think if, if you're someone who comes from riding like pretty hardcore road bikes or like time trial bikes, our bike is not going to feel, um, too stiff to you. There's no, no, I'm making something that I want to ride for a couple hours and have fun on, and we can stiffen things up for sure if that's what you're looking for. But I. You know, like there's the whole conversation of, um, pedaling efficiency, aero gains, all those types of things. Like I'm not making a type of bike that anyone is going to race on, right? Like people who are racing and are concerned about aero gains and drivetrain efficiency and all that stuff are, they're probably on, they want to be on the BMC or the Canyon or the Factor or whatever other guys are racing on. So for me to try to tailor the bike construction methodology to capture that little bit more of the market, Even if I had a product that met their needs, I don't think I'd have a very easy time selling it because it's not got, you know, it's not what other people are racing. So, um, yeah, I've, I've. Tried to make a bike that is really enjoyable for most people. Like even if you are a serious racer, train on one of our bikes, you're going to have a lot [00:38:33]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So, I mean, just to be clear. So for the would be gravel cyclists looking at one of your gravel frames, what size tire clearance can you get? And do you sort of in your mind say this is sort of a, this is an all around gravel bike. This is going to get it in that sweet spot of you can do almost everything from including racing with it to, you know, your local group ride, gravel rides, et cetera, [00:38:59]Jonathan: Yeah. I think that comes down to what do you define a gravel bike as, right? So we, because everything is custom geometry, I can take it from being basically like a nineties, late eighties mountain bike, um, to. Basically a super fast road bike that you can fit gravel tires on, right? Like it's, I can do the whole spectrum. So I kind of didn't answer this part of the question that you asked about what the customer experience is like. Everything we do is like, I haven't made two bikes that are the same yet. Right. And I'm on a boat. Bike 20 at this point. So we can do all your normal fit stuff. But then again, yeah, the question of tire clearance, drivetrain impingement. Um, I'd say, uh, we would have a tough time stuffing a 50 millimeter tire in with a two by drivetrain with one by no problem. Um, upfront. So we're, uh, classified OEM. I don't know if you're familiar with those. Uh, yeah. The internal shifting hub. So if people like really want huge tire clearance and two by that's like one of the things I can lean on there. Um, but yeah, like I think my, I've made myself, uh, kind of an all road gravel leaning bike and a gravel bike. That's got a really slack head tube and I ride it with 45s on it all the time. Uh, so yeah, we can, we can kind of do whatever you're looking for. I think. Gravel as a segment has a lot more variability than like a road bike, you know, there's fast gravel Um, you know, whatever slack bike packing type gravel. So yeah, we can kind of do Anything really and that that is one of the challenges we have is like, okay I'm telling you about how diverse our system is in terms of its output and we can tune tubes and all this stuff It [00:40:39]Craig Dalton (Host): 100%. Yeah. [00:40:40]Jonathan: For the customer, right? Like they can't, it's, it's, it's too much. So that's why in the new year, I'm working on it right now. We want to offer like pre made geometry essentially at a slightly better price than our customs. We're going to have a couple of geometry tables, um, for, you know, road, all road, gravel, maybe even do two gravels, like the fast gravel and the, but that'll kind of like, which is all road, [00:41:02]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Yeah. Having gone through my own, uh, custom [00:41:05]Jonathan: And just to kind [00:41:07]Craig Dalton (Host): overwhelmed with choice all of a sudden when someone says they can make you anything all of a sudden, it's hard not to become paralyzed. And it took me a while. And fortunately, I'm surrounded by lots of advisors in this front to help that helped me kind of just narrow down the constraints. Of what I wanted and then kind of work with the frame builder to say, yeah, this makes sense. [00:41:28]Jonathan: yeah. So our, like. Easiest customers, fastest, like, time from first interaction to when the bike is built are people who have commissioned lots of custom bikes already, right? They don't, like, they're not doubting their decision. They know what they're looking for. They know they're fit. Um, so they're not belabouring these decisions of like, oh, what's a 0. 2 degree difference on my head tube gonna do, right? Like, they're, it's To them, it's not a big deal. So that's where it's, someone said it to me at, at made actually is like, Oh, what you want is freedom from choice in terms of like having the, the, the product, you know, take this or leave it, you know, that's, if you want to do the full custom thing, we can do that, but maybe it's easier for you to just cross shop geometry tables on like bike insights. And that's what you, how you want to do it. So I need to kind of make that, um, available for people. So yeah, it is, it is totally overwhelming. And I think it's, so there is no customer interaction for me right now that isn't like one click buy on the website, right? Like I'm, there's a bunch of emails back and forth. There's drawing revisions, there's discussions about what you're looking for, what bikes you currently have, um, and what your goals are for the build. So yeah, it's, it, it's involved. And that's part of the reason for shifting to like sort of the tiered model of like prebuilt at one price. And. Full custom at another price because there's a ton of time involved in custom where I can just like Turn on the CNC machine and make make the size 56 all road and you get your thing a couple weeks later You know, there's [00:43:06]Craig Dalton (Host): You had mentioned in this conversation sort of this journey to becoming part of the bike industry. Is, is there anything that stands out that surprised you? About the way people buy bikes or what it's like being a bicycle manufacturer. [00:43:20]Jonathan: no everything. I'm I'm yeah, we talked about this a bit before we started But yeah, like that's the whole side of it. That's It's a total mystery to me, like I'm, I'm a like tech focused, fact based kind of person and to try to navigate, um, the mind of the consumer amidst all the information they're giving, given from general marketing and you know, what, what's important, what's not, it's, and, and convincing someone that what you're doing is worthwhile. Is really challenging. That's, that's going to be the kind of crux of my success or failure. It's not like, I think we make a good product and I can't guarantee you. Sorry. I think my heater just kicked on in the shop. Did that come [00:44:03]Craig Dalton (Host): No worries. [00:44:04]Jonathan: microphone a bit? Okay. Um, so yeah, like that, that, that's going to be the make or break for me. Can I sell enough bikes to keep it, uh, [00:44:14]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Yeah. It's, it, [00:44:16]Jonathan: So [00:44:16]Craig Dalton (Host): so interesting [00:44:17]Jonathan: inside the mind. [00:44:18]Craig Dalton (Host): your business over Instagram because you're, you're so, um, open about sharing your manufacturing process and open to engineering debates and discussions with would be commenters on your Instagram stories that I do think, I mean, from an outsider's perspective, Jonathan, I think you, you showcase the quality of your work in those discussions. And you have always shown up in every story that I've, I've watched in our, our previous conversations, you show up as someone who's very thoughtful about the things you're doing. And obviously there are different ways of doing things, but you are clear about why you are doing things the way you are doing that. [00:45:00]Jonathan: Yeah. So that's always been what's worked for me is sort of the behind the scenes, lay it out for what it is. Um, I think what a lot of people have told me in that sort of marketing branding thing is like, you need to take it a step further. You need to not just show what you're doing, but you need to explain why it's good. And that's where I think I draw a little bit of a personal line because it's like, I'm not, I don't want to take it to, I'm telling you what you should think. I want to leave it at let me show you and you decide for yourself and I don't know if [00:45:29]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, I think, I mean, I think the challenge now just my two senses, um, given the small number of frames you have out there in the world is just getting rider feedback, testimonials, reviews, other people riding bikes that are willing to comment on things like ride quality to kind of bring it all together, because as I just said, like, I do think that you've yeah. You've established through your social accounts that trust in your skill as a manufacturer. Now people are just wanting to see what do people say when they've got one of these underneath them? [00:46:02]Jonathan: Yeah I've had people literally DM me and said like there I've got some review bikes out there with Certain reviewers and I've had people say when so and so writes their review as long as it's not bad. I'm buying a bike It's like okay great I think that's good that you need that little like last bit of confirmation that it's not a crapshoot but Like I'm, I'm over here kind of feeling a little vulnerable to be honest, like you put yourself out there. I'm selling bikes. I don't know what expectations I had in terms of how fast sales would take off. I think, like my wife keeps reminding me, like you've been doing this for a year, like maybe you have unreasonable expectations. Just keep your head down and keep like doing good stuff. So yeah, I think you're right. That'll just take a little bit of time, awareness. [00:46:46]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. And then [00:46:47]Jonathan: Yeah, all those things of [00:46:49]Craig Dalton (Host): would say, and I maybe I've missed this on your account to the degree in which you are writing your own product and out there. Just sharing a little bit of, of your own commentary again, like everybody's going to take it with a, Hey, this is one rider and, you know, maybe it's a very self interested rider's perspective, but I, you always have struck me as someone who's honest. So I'm not thinking you're going to film a video of yourself riding a gravel trail saying this is the fastest bike ever been produced on earth. [00:47:17]Jonathan: so yeah, I might've given, uh, discredited myself already in this conversation in that regard of, I wrote a fixie for the last 20 years, right? Like what's my frame of reference? I've, I've said this to people and they look at me like, Oh my God, this guy must be a total idiot. Where I say like, I'm not a bike guy. Like, I'm a cyclist. I love riding bikes, but I'm not a guy that's reading the magazines every month, seeing what the latest and greatest is, or knowing what the trends are. Like, I'm kind of outside of all of that. So I think, to your question about what are the biggest kind of shocks is, um, yeah, the whole branding, marketing side of it. I was, I really underestimated that. I thought like a good product, a good, well made product is worthy of, um, you know, at least consideration from a buyer, but there's so much information out there, right? There it's overwhelming and it changes [00:48:06]Craig Dalton (Host): hundred percent. I mean, I think what, [00:48:08]Jonathan: me saying, I'm enjoying riding my bike. It's like, yeah, of course I'm going to say like, [00:48:14]Craig Dalton (Host): oh man, well, I mean, this is great. Jonathan, just one final question on like the customer journey. Like if someone was to come to you with a custom project and assume that they kind of are in the know and got to understand the basics of what they want. Once you kind of locked in design back and forth, how long does it take you to produce a bicycle? And are you typically selling a complete bike or just a frame? [00:48:35]Jonathan: so I'll answer the last part of that question first. We do both. Um, I would say. The farther away the bike's getting shipped, the less likely it is that it's a complete, if that makes any sense. Like I'm in Canada, I'm sourcing components here, so our American customers, it might make more sense for them to work with their local shop. To fill out the build and I just send the frames work and handlebars or whatever they're buying down there. Um, local people have bought full builds. I've sent stuff, yeah, internationally as far as Japan more recently, and those are typically frames. So we do both. We do want to know about component, um, compatibility, even if we're not the ones. We're doing the full build, you know, that's an important part of making sure everything works for the customer when they get it. Um, so the way we work is we take a deposit, uh, 500 right now to reserve a spot in the build queue and to kind of do that back and start the discussion on what you're looking for. That deposit's non refundable, but it gets applied to the balance of whatever the build cost comes out to at the end. Um, and from the approval, like some people approve same day. They know exactly what they want. Might go to production later that day or the next morning. Uh, it's, I would say it's typically about a month right now from start to finish to build the bike. Like, it's, there's, it's not a lot of my time, but there's a bunch of steps where you wait in between. The main one being that I send the lugs out for plating for, uh, corrosion resistance and Uh, and that, you know, if I finish them on a Monday, I ship them out a Tuesday or Wednesday, I get them back a week and a half later, uh, in that time I can have made the tubes. So, yeah, it's our lead time right now is about two months. I think we've got some backlog, a small backlog of orders to work through, some review bikes going out and. Yeah, so it's, we're pretty quick, I think, like our, the theoretical throughput on what I can do in a year, uh, on our current equipment is [00:50:41]Craig Dalton (Host): Okay. [00:50:42]Jonathan: 200 bikes. So I don't expect to be selling that many. If I was, [00:50:47]Craig Dalton (Host): Well, we'll get you there in time. Jonathan. I'm good. I'm excited to see this journey ahead of you. [00:50:53]Jonathan: Thanks. [00:50:54]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Cool. Well, I'll put links to everything in the show notes. So people know how to find you again for the listener. Definitely follow the frameworks framework bikes, Instagram account, which I'll link to as well. You can get all the behind the scenes. You're going to want a friend of mine who tipped me off to your brand when we were at Manufacturer's porn, which I think is appropriate. [00:51:15]Jonathan: No, Yeah, the website, uh, it's there. It needs some work. Like I said, we're working on the kind of program for 2024 in terms of the stock sizes. Throwing some more information up there. It's just really it's a placeholder website right now. So definitely needs [00:51:31]Craig Dalton (Host): Right on. Thanks for all the time, Jonathan. [00:51:34]Jonathan: Thank you [00:51:34]Craig Dalton (Host): that's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Jonathan from frameworks for coming on board. And telling us all about his journey and manufacturing process for those beautiful bikes. Additional thanks. Goes out to our friends at hammerhead. For sponsoring the show many times this year, truly appreciate their support as I couldn't do what I do without some of their underwriting. If you were able to support the show, a couple of things you can do for me, ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. They really help. With discoverability. Or if you're able to financially contribute to the show, simply visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels.     

Meet Steven Steven Novick is the CEO & Founder of Farmstand. Farmstand cooks & delivers fresh, fast, healthy, and affordable meals to businesses and consumers that they personalize. Their website is www.EatFarmstand.com. Steven previously built 2 billion-dollar businesses & climbed seven summits (including Everest - the very top). Beating cancer made him passionate about food and the environment, and growing up working class made him appreciate affordability and convenience, which is why he started Farmstand. With there being so many meal delivery services out there, how is Farmstand better? Like you said, there's certainly a tremendous amount of meal delivery services out there. And how we distinguish ourselves is really in four ways: we're affordable, we're fast, we're healthy, and we're also zero waste. So we describe the Farmstand formula as: we're $7 a meal, five minutes to heat, zero added sugar in zero ways. So it's “seven, five, zero zero”. To add a little bit more to that, we think, ultimately, we're 10 times better than the competition. Firstly, as much as we do a direct-to-consumer service, and we deliver directly to homes, what makes us highly unique is that we have large contracts with Office caterers and large institutions. But what makes us 10 times better than the competition is we're fresh, versus frozen or a meal kit. So we're ready to eat. We're 50% less expensive. We're 90% faster to cook, and we have 100% personalization. And oh, by the way, we take up 90% less fridge space than a HelloFresh would. Love all of that. And now this is the part that I'm sure most of our listeners are going to be not super happy to hear. But you're not available in the US at the moment. Correct? Yeah, at the moment, we're just in the UK. We cover the UK nationwide. But a contract that we've signed with a food service provider called ISS and the UK's largest bank, Barclays, that contract, although it starts in the UK, is a subscription agreement (because we're a subscription-only business) allows us to expand into Europe and the US. And so our hope is to be in the US starting on a B2B basis as early as the first quarter of 2023. All right, love that. I'm definitely eager to learn more about you when you're in our territory. So you've previously built $2 billion businesses. How have you done that and what's important to get right from the very beginning? Yeah, so prior to starting Farmstand, I co-founded an investment firm that now manages about $2 billion invested in private companies. And then prior to that, I was head of business development at a health tech business that raised about $50 million in venture capital. We scaled to $20 million in revenue, and it filed for an IPO of $650 million valuation, which in today's dollar might be about a billion dollars, and then that business was acquired. So I think the fundamental thing is like, when we started Farmstand, I think that the foundation of everything is our values, behaviors, and ultimately what you stand for as a business. In any business you start or you join, I think you have to be very values-driven. And so for us at Farmstand, that's been a real big driver. And so one of our big values that we really centered around, especially in the environment we're in, is making sure that what we're doing has zero food waste, zero packaging waste. We're a B Corp certified business, just like Patagonia or Ben and Jerry's. So these are kind of some of the things that are really important. I think that if you don't have the right foundation when you start a business, you can't grow from that. I love that. And I agree 100% with all those. I started my business fairly young and didn't have that foundation fleshed out. But it's definitely been a core focus of mine, and something I communicate to my team and even clients – when we're talking about their marketing and their messaging – is that it comes down to what is it that you believe, that's going to help attract the type of people that align with your thinking and your philosophy? Yeah, I think that's right, and ultimately your customers are going to follow you and get excited based on what you do. So we ultimately want people to take a stand – and take a Farmstand for that matter. So it's on affordability; you know, healthy meals shouldn't just be for the wealthy. And you ultimately want these meals to be healthy. So no added sugar is a really important thing. I mean, 73% of the US population now is overweight or obese, if you eliminate sugar, that helps a lot. And then ultimately, we all are short on time. And so you can pop our food in the microwave, and you have to be ready in three minutes, or boil some hot water and you can make that happen. In that way we kind of describe our business as a build-your-own-salad bar meets Uncle Ben's Ready Rice, because our pouches, which are our meals, are basically a base, a main, and a side, they all come separate, so you just put them in boiling hot water, and that's a really great solution. And then now with the environmental problems that we're having, and the increasing temperatures, making sure you have zero waste. So what's great about us is we have no food waste, we have no packaging waste, and after three deliveries, customers can return all the packaging to us. And we reuse that. So we effectively make a profit on the return which is great for us, for growing our business. So I hear you've been writing a book for about five years now. It's something that I wanted to do for a while. You read books like Shoe Dog, written by Phil Knight about Nike, and other books out there about your experience. Our business effectively started as a dark kitchen, and we were mostly a B2B play pre-COVID. So we had 12 Farmstand branded concessions inside large corporations like JP Morgan, Barclays, BlackRock, and KPMG, when COVID hit, we had to shut that entire business down. And we started completely from scratch. So the book is called Keep going. So the five things you do when things get difficult, and this is not only in work, but in life. The first thing is that you write down the list of the problems when things get difficult. The second thing is you come up with, hopefully, a set of potential solutions to those problems. The third thing you do is you, you know, ask for help. And then the fourth thing is you start executing on those things. And then the fifth thing, ideally, is that when you fix your problems you try to help other people. That's the general idea around the five things. And, you know, I think in life, it's the same thing, when you have a, you know, you have something, it's difficult, you have to really think about what the problem is and, and be rational about it and try to come up with solutions. So I think whether it's work or life, you really want to rally around, just keeping things as simple as possible, trying to be as rational as you can about it, whether it's a relationship with your partner, or with a work colleague, or it's work in general, you have to be solution-oriented. It's one of the things that we believe at Farmstand, one of our behaviors, people can talk about anything they want with us, or complain about anything they want. But ultimately, you need to find solutions to problems, not just simply complain about them. What's the timeline to get the book wrapped up? Well, with restarting the business from scratch in February, and the business growing, you know, more than 20% a month, you know, since we started, you know, folks right now are raising a bit more venture capital, which we just started doing. We're part of an accelerator in Milwaukee, which is how we met called generator, which is, you know, top 10 nationwide business accelerator. So we're focusing on raising capital right now, you know, and if we're here at the end of January now, it would be nice to get something out probably by next year is kind of the idea, maybe to coincide with us launching our business in the US. Cool. Love it. All right. Well, this would be a good time to pause for a quick message from our sponsor. Social capital is sponsored by Keystone Click. Located in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Keystone Click is a strategic digital marketing agency focused on helping their clients generate and nurture opportunities online. For Social Capital listeners, they've created an awesome "Guide to Profits" booklet featuring 42 tips on how to build brand awareness, generate leads, and nurture those opportunities online. Visit https://www.keystoneclick.com/profits to download your own guide today. Can you share with our listeners one of your favorite networking experiences that you've had? I think every opportunity we have, when we're walking down the street or in the park, or in a grocery store, or wherever we have an opportunity to meet people, I don't actually like the word "networking". Connecting with people is how I view it. I'm actually much more of an introvert. People have a hard time believing that because I can get up in front of large groups of people and talk, but my natural inclination is to be more of an internal person. So I think on the networking side, I think the best thing to do whenever you're reaching out to people, LinkedIn is probably the most helpful platform that's out there to help you build a business. And I think if you're genuine in your approach, and you're honest about things, I think people generally respond very well to that if you open up by trying to sell something, or super aggressive or send repeated emails, it's not going to work. So I think you're always putting yourself in the other person's shoes. So whether it's, for us in the case of trying to contact people or food service providers, or corporates, or people looking to help us, you know, that's, that's kind of how I've gone about, I guess, you know, networking or connecting with people. I think a lot of times what is super helpful, whether you're trying to raise capital, or you're trying to build your business, is getting introductions through other people. And the easiest way of getting your introductions to other people is preparing an email that's very simple, very short. And to the point, asking someone to make that introduction, it's clear what you want the reduction for, and then they can just forward that email on to other people. So I think, you know, one, you know, example of a relationship that helped get our B2B business started as we went to our first office catering relationship was with JP Morgan, and a friend of mine, Stefan happened to work there, run a division. We had a pop-up restaurant in my house before we started the business. He came over like we were doing when we had a gathering, you know, to kind of launch the business, his daughter came along, and most of our food is gluten-free. And she was like, hey, you know, Dad, wouldn't it be great if you had this at JP Morgan? So Stefan was able to make an introduction to Aramark, which was the food service provider. And then the person that worked at JP Morgan oversaw the relationship with Aramark and effectively headed food services for JP Morgan. So there's a good example of using effectively a friend and obviously the help from his daughter who liked the food, you know, proposing the idea that progressed with us, that was our first relationship with an office caterer. And that led to our second with Compass. And then the third is with ISS, which is based in Copenhagen in a very large relationship for us now. Yeah, I love that. And then just letting being clear on what type of connections you're looking for makes it so much easier for someone to make that connection actually turn into reality. But there's like three ways to describe people, either you're a giver or a taker, or you're kind of a bit of both, I'm definitely a giver, I don't expect anything in return. So if I happen to be talking to someone or having a chat with someone a couple days ago, looking to invest in our business, he works in a sector that's not really similar to ours. And I happen to know someone that knows a lot about his sector, that also runs an investment fund. And I said, Hey, you know, you're looking at potentially moving into this investment field, you can probably talk to my friend, he didn't ask me to do this. But I think just volunteering and, and willing to help other people out, usually, that comes back and helps you as well. So I think being a giver versus a taker generally works to your advantage, you don't want to be taken advantage of because you also may have to do your own job. But I think being generous with our relationships and our network with other people can be a useful thing, too. What advice would you offer the business professional who's really looking to grow their network? So the first thing about me, which is kind of maybe a bit odd, is I never offer advice. I'm not a person that offers advice, because that presumes that I know more than the other person. And nine out of 10 times, I probably don't, even though I read sometimes up to a book a week. But what I do is offer suggestions, but only when asked. So my suggestion, you know, if you're going to try to grow your business, whatever it is, whether it's a B2B business, or direct consumer business is figuring out like, if especially if it's gonna be focusing on sales or, you know, looking at ways of network effects, which Reid Hoffman talks about in his book, "Blitzscaling", is ultimately look for the two or three or four contact contracts or relationships that could potentially lead to large revenues, versus taking in, so be more of a rifle shooter or a sniper versus using a machine gun approach. And just try to keep the approach, very targeted, very focused, versus being too broad-based. When you launch a business even for us. There's a lot of things we could not have done to launch our business. We, you know, initially started off our business, you know, meals for four, and that was portions for four, then we started with meals for two. And ultimately, we settled on meals for one because individuals are probably easier to market to than families at the end of the day. If you could go back to your 20-year-old self, what would you tell yourself to do more or less of, or differently with regard to your professional career? Well, it's a really good question. I really haven't thought much about that. But I would say to anyone, especially when you can look in the rearview mirror, is always work with people that have, you know, good values and good behaviors, because ultimately, being around good leaders has the right influence long term. And I think some of the jobs I've taken in the people I've worked with, some of them have had exceptional ethics, and others haven't. So I think the 20-year-old self would be, you know, focused on working with really high-quality people and high-quality organizations, because that will lead to further opportunities with similar people in businesses. Connect with Steven LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevennovick/  Instagram: @steven_novick

GUEST BIO: Stefan Tilkov is a co-founder and principal consultant at INNOQ, a technology consulting company with offices in Germany and Switzerland. He has been involved in the design of large-scale, distributed systems for more than two decades, using a variety of technologies and tools. He has authored numerous articles and a book and is a frequent speaker at conferences around the world. EPISODE DESCRIPTION: Phil’s guest on today’s show is Stefan Tilkov who is a co-founder of, and the principal consultant, at INNOQ, a leading technology consulting company. Stefan and his team design large-scale distributed systems. Over the years, he has worked with numerous programming languages including C++ and CORBA over J2EE/Java EE and Web Services to REST and Ruby on Rail and several others. He is also a published writer who frequently speaks at conferences across the world. KEY TAKEAWAYS: ­­­(1.00) – So Stefan, you can I ask you to expand on that brief summary and tell us a little bit about yourself? Stefan said that Phil had covered what he had done over most of the past 20 years. Today, Stefan rarely gets the chance to program anymore. But, he does get the chance to do many other things that he enjoys. Particularly, consulting with clients and talking to them about architecture and the design of systems. A lot of his time is also taken up with the company management stuff. When he can, he still does some of the technical work. (1.54) – Phil asks Stefan for a unique IT career tip. Quite early in his career Stefan started public speaking. He feels that doing this has benefitted him greatly. It has helped him with client engagement, with meetings and with negotiations. The fact that he is very used to talking to people in his career makes all of these situations far easier. (3.38) – Stefan is asked to share his worst career moment by Phil. Interestingly, it is related to public speaking. Early in his career he was working on a project where C++ was used. Things had worked out so that he was the only one on the team who knew anything about that language. So, when the project manager was unable to make a client meeting, Stefan was the only person with enough knowledge to be able to make the presentation. But, he was very new to the world of work and had not had any time to prepare. Unsurprisingly, he completely “bombed” and felt really awful about it for quite a few days. (5.09) – So, moving away from your worst moment, can you maybe talk about your IT career, highlight or greatest success. Strangely, that happened when Stefan was working on a project that went completely wrong. It was a disaster on every level. Everybody had given up a little on the project. But, various members of the business, including Stefan, pulled together and were able to turn the project around. The client was surprised they had managed to do so and went on to use it for a decade or so. Stefan felt better about this project than ones he has worked on where everything has gone smoothly from the start. (7.09) – Phil asks Stefan what it is about the future of the IT industry that excites him. Stefan says there has never been a better time to be involved in IT. Since around 2008/9 the industry has gotten progressively more interesting. Technology now touches and influences every part of your life. Everyone is talking about it and understands how important it is. Right now, IT professionals influence so many things and are able to work in a much more connected fashion. Stefan would not trade his IT job for any other. (8.59) – What first attracted you to a career in IT? Stefan said it was the amazing discovery that he was able to tell the machine what to do. He started using computers at age 10 or 11. At the time, computers were very rudimentary. Stefan loved the challenge of having to figure absolutely everything out from scratch. For him learning new things was like a detective story. Phil commented that he often forgets that, in the early 90s, when you bought a computer, there was nothing on it. (10.43) – What is the best career advice you have ever received? Early on someone encouraged Stefan to write documentation, proposals and to explain what he was doing in writing. Later he went on to write articles and books. Writing is an important piece of the puzzle. Being able to express your thoughts clearly is vital. (11.35) – If you were to begin your IT career again, right now, what would you do? Stefan said I would look for fun stuff to play with. Building things is fun, so, if you have the time, play and learn. Use your skills to do things for yourself, friends, your community and maybe help society or do some open source work. Not everything you work on needs to be commercial and about making money. (12.40) – Phil asks Stefan what career objectives he is currently focusing on. Right now Stefan is focused on the company. Along with his colleagues he is working to maintain a healthy company culture as the company continues to grow at a fast rate. (13.24) – What would you consider to be your most important non-technical skill? Being able to speak English and communicate effectively in that language has helped Stefan in his career. (14.26) – Phil asks Stefan to share a few final words of career advice. Stefan says to make sure that you are having fun. The IT industry is one of the few in which you can have fun, so if you are not enjoying your job, look for a new one. BEST MOMENTS: (2.56) STEFAN – “Try to get into speaking and then getting yourself into situations that may feel uncomfortable at first, but actually help you a lot in getting your ideas across.” (7.19) STEFAN – “There's never been a better time to be in this industry.” (12.08) STEFAN – “Start playing out, playing with stuff and build things for your own purposes, for your friends, for your community, maybe do some open source stuff.” (14.52) STEFAN – “If you're in this industry and are not having fun, then you should probably switch your job.” CONTACT STEFAN TILKOV: Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/stilkov @stilkov LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stefantilkov/ Website: https://www.innoq.com/en/staff/stefan-tilkov/

Podcast Summary: Consumers continue to increase their digital footprints and more personalization, but at the same time less invasion into their privacy. In this podcast we will dive into how organizations can maintain the consumer's privacy while still utilizing personalization in marketing tactics. Resources: Blog: https://blog.dieboldnixdorf.com/personalization-vs-privacy-balancing-act-retailers/#.W0Zc-NJKjIU DN website: www.dieboldnixdorf.com COMMERCE NOW website: www.commercenow.libsyn.com Transcription: Introduction: Amy:                                     00:16                     Hello, and welcome to Commerce Now, your source for fintech conversations, along with emerging trends in the banking and retail industries. I'm your host, Amy Lombardo. Amy:                                     00:25                     In today's topic we'll discuss how consumers continue to increase their digital footprints, and demand more personalization, but the same time, less invasion into their privacy. In this podcast we'll dive into how organizations can maintain the consumer's privacy, while still utilizing personalization in marketing tactics. Amy:                                     00:46                     Today, I'm joined by two members of Diebold Nixdorf's Legal and Compliance department: Lisa Radigan, Chief Ethics and Compliance Officer, and Stefan Limbacher, Global Data Privacy Officer. Each will share their input and perspective on this relevant and timely topic: Personalization Versus Privacy. Amy:                                     01:05                     So thanks for joining me today, Lisa and Stefan. Stefan:                                 01:09                     Thank you for having us. Lisa:                                       01:09                     Thank you, Amy, it's great to be here. SECTION 1 –WHAT DOES GDPR STAND FOR? / WHAT IS GDPR? Amy:                                     01:11                     Okay, so, let's jump into the conversation. Let's start at the highest level what GDPR stands for. There's so much buzz, whether your business is B2B or B2C around balancing that right level of data gathering with then the data privacy. So look at any recent news coverage you see, or even check your own personal email and you can't avoid all the privacy policies or opt-ins that are hitting your inbox. Amy:                                     01:35                     So, Lisa, can you tell me what exactly is GDPR? Lisa:                                       01:38                     So, GDPR is the General Data Protection Regulation. It's an EU law that really is designed to harmonize a number of EU laws that has existed for quite some time. And to provide a standard across, EU countries, that gives consumers and anyone who has any kind of personal data some additional protections around how that data is used. So it's really just a, a universal framework to provide some consistency. But it will of course impact all companies who end up touching personal data that goes through the EU in any way. Amy:                                     02:22                     Okay. And we see the news, we hear the buzz that consumers are uneasy about the means that marketers are using to acquire information about them. So it's important to know what material they're willing to provide to get these personalized communications. Amy:                                     02:38                     So with that said, why do you think consumers are more willing to share information with certain organizations over others? Stefan:                                 02:46                     Data is being regarded as the oil of our age. So, people will become more and more aware of its value. And I think the key thing is to create an environment where people are confident that their privacy is being protected. If you create an environment like that, then, people will be more willing to share private information. And it will be easier for business to gather information required for them. Stefan:                                 03:18                     So I think this is a target that can be achieved by these new laws, these new privacy laws which are popping up all over the globe at the moment. Amy:                                     03:29                     Okay, thank you. So, the GDPR was effective May 25th of this year in Europe. How do you feel the GDPR is effecting the balance between personalization and privacy here in the US? Lisa:                                       03:43                     So, it's interesting you say it was effective on May 25th, that's partially accurate, it's actually been in place since April of 2016, but it will be applicable starting on May 25th in Europe, which basically means starting on May 25th, companies really need to be fully ready for all of the different ways in which GDPR will be applicable to them. Lisa:                                       04:08                     So at Diebold Nixdorf, we actually kicked off our program to get GDPR ready about two years ago, because there's really quite a lot of work that we've been doing and that a number of companies are doing and will continue to do to make sure that we're compliant with GDPR. Lisa:                                       04:26                     GDPR will impact the US because lots of data from the US flows through Europe, or into Europe somehow. And so really it's becoming just the gold standard on how companies deal with and manage data that crosses their systems. You know, the world is a small place anymore, and lots and lots of other countries around the world, including, frankly, in the US, are adopting similar rules, similar regulations to what the principles of the GDPR require. Lisa:                                       05:03                     For instance we're really taking the view that the GDPR while applicable in Europe, we really view it as the standard that we will use globally and you know, I think lots of companies will end up doing the same, because the flow of data simply is difficult to stop at the borders of Europe. Amy:                                     05:24                     Got it. So you said that from your opinion this could become the global standard. So do you see it cascading to other areas of the world? Stefan:                                 05:33                     Yes, actually, I think it's happening right now. So if you look into what's going on in Latin America, and in Asia Pac-Pacific, there, currently is legislation being drafted that picks up on a lot of issues that are dealt with in the GDPR. And, I think this is a process that will be even accelerated by incidents like, Cambridge Analytica. So, data privacy is on people's minds and as you said rightfully in the beginning, you know, people are bombarded with emails around this, and, yeah, I think the sensitivity is at a peak at the moment. Stefan:                                 06:15                     Global legislation that is coming into place is picking up on GDPR and that is also one of the reasons why Diebold Nixdorf has chosen GDPR to be its gold standard for its global data privacy program. SECTION 2: HOW COULD GDPR AFFECT BANKS AND RETAILERS? Amy:                                     06:37                     Okay, got it. So, let's switch gears and talk a little on how GDPR effects banks and retailers. So we talked about earlier how organizations should have in effect a robust data privacy approach. So what is the policy if there is a security breach under the GDPR? Lisa:                                       07:00                     Under the GDPR there are lots of rules around what you need to do around data breaches. There's the so-called 72-Hour Rule, which basically means you have to inform data protection authorities or potentially even some data subjects if it's a potentially relevant incident that's occurred. Lisa:                                       07:23                     Data breach notification rules have been around for quite some time, both in Europe and in the US. Lots of US states have these obligations where companies are required to notify when a breach occurs. Lots of companies, including ours, have now established formal breach notification policies to make sure that if a breach occurs that it's escalated appropriately within the organization and is dealt with quickly so that we can adhere to these really quite stringent notification laws. Amy:                                     08:05                     Okay. So let's talk a little bit about how businesses actually compile the data on a consumer. Are there best practices to get the most information out of a consumer but without offending them? Stefan could you comment on that? Stefan:                                 08:23                     There are a couple of principles that you need to adhere to. So, the general principle of data privacy is that you're not allowed to process it unless you have a legal reason to do so. For example: Consent or contracts or compliance with a legal obligation or legitimate interest, so you need to be aware what is your legal basis. That is key. Stefan:                                 08:57                     We’re analyzing every instance where we are touching personal data and we're determining what is our legal basis.  Secondly you need to consider the principle of the data privacy by design. So, that means that you may only process the data which is absolutely required for your goal, and you can't collect any useless information. So you have to focus on what you really need, and what, what fits your purpose. Stefan:                                 09:31                     As a fair point, you need to delete data which is no longer required and you need to have in place an eraser or data erasure process that ensures that you're not accumulating data which is no longer required. So, coming back to your question, it's the wrong question, "How can I collect as much data as possible?" That is actually already not in line with the spirit of data privacy. You should ask, "What actually do I need?" And only limit yourself to that data which is actually required for your purpose. Stefan:                                 10:10                     I think when you do that you'll have a different experience yourself processing the data. And if you convey that to your, customers and if your customers can feel that and this is your prime directive when you process data, then I think they will be more willing to give you the data that you actually require. Lisa:                                       10:33                     And if I can just jump in quickly on, on this point, too ... I think in terms of best practices for how can companies really deal with and manage data and personal information that they're coming across? I think the key, really, to any compliance program, and certainly to anything around data privacy is to make sure that your program is not static and it needs to continue to evolve and continue to grow and change as the business changes, as the needs of particular data changes. Lisa:                                       11:05                     And I think the GDPR is really quite focused on that, to make sure that you're collecting data for a specific purpose and you're using it for that purpose and you're really evaluating, "Okay, why do we need this? Is there a better or more efficient way to get it? Should we be deleting it at different times?" It really forces companies to think hard about their programs and not just to have it be, you know, "We've put in a policy and it sits on a shelf and nobody's touched it for years." Lisa:                                       11:39                     You have to really engage in the topic and it has to be sort of top of mind for people as we continue to go forward. I think Stefan's absolutely right; data is (Laughs) by far going to be kind of the oil of our age. And making sure that we're taking care of it appropriately is really one of the things that GDPR is concerned with. Amy:                                     12:04                     Okay. I actually wanted to drill into something that you had mentioned, Stefan. But is there a way you could give me an example of what a legal obligation is? So you had mentioned that you can collect the data if it's part of a legal obligation. Can you share an example of that? Stefan:                                 12:23                     So for example, if you’re an employee of a company, the company is collecting your data that is in connection with fulfilling its contract with you. So it can make payments, for example, to you. Once you're terminated or once that labor agreement was terminated, you no longer have that, contractual obligation to have the data. Actually you would then need to delete the data. Stefan:                                 12:50                     There is in many countries a legal obligation to keep data on your employees for a certain amount of years. So, the authorities can check that proper tax payments have been made, and Social Security payments have been made. So there are sometimes legal obligations to keep data. Amy:                                     13:11                     Okay, that makes sense. Thank you for that. Amy:                                     13:14                     So Lisa, as we've discussed, consumers continue to use new forms of technology, and they have this overarching expectations of organizations. So, one for the business to better understand them as individuals, but then also to protect their privacy. So can you tell us a little bit about what are some steps organizations can take in regards to the personalization aspect? Is there a way to strike that perfect balance? Lisa:                                       13:43                     Yeah, I mean, I think when you look at kind of the goals of personalization and privacy it seems like they could be potentially contradictory, but really the key to companies managing and handling their data that they receive from their customers appropriately is to make sure that the consumer or the customer are really in the driver's seat. That the consumer knows the data that's being given to the company. That they have control over how that data is used. They give really, an informed consent around, how that data will continue to be used in the future, and that they know where that data is going. Lisa:                                       14:29                     We really think that data privacy is going to ultimately drive quite a lot of innovation around this. I think if you go back, you know, three, four, five years ago, the goal was really just gather as much data as you possibly can about people, or gather as many people's data as you can and try to then send out marketing materials or whatever you're going to use that data for. I think going forward the focus will need to be certainly on making sure that you have the right data from the right people, which ultimately will then allow you to really target people who may want to actually use your products or purchase your products. Lisa:                                       15:11                     So, I think it's ultimately going to drive quite a lot of innovation. Hopefully that will be innovation that's beneficial not only for the company who's collecting the data, but ultimately for the consumer as well to make the ways in which they're engaging with an organization much more, productive and meaningful to the end consumer. Amy:                                     15:38                     Yep, and that makes total sense in this age of innovation and technology advancements and we're in a world where digital engagement is really paramount to the day-to-day operations of global organizations. So Stefan, do you see that the GDPR and any future mandates could affect the digital ecosystem? Stefan:                                 15:59                     Let me take an example: So at the moment, you're getting all these emails from companies making you aware that you need to opt-in to receive future information from companies. The marketing guys of those companies, they will hate this, because, the information you're sending out, the newsletters you're sending out, they will lose a lot of reach when you're asking for an opt-in from consumers. Stefan:                                 16:29                     But in the end when you do that you will focus on those consumers that are actually interested in receiving your email, because they actively said, "Yes, I want to get this information. This information is useful for me." And, I think in the end you, you might lose 80% of addressees of your newsletters, but in the end you can focus on those 20% for which the information is actually relevant and that I am actually going to use the information. Stefan:                                 17:02                     So, I think the businesses will need to learn that data privacy is not about the amount, it's not about the size of your database, it's about the quality. And also, when you're developing products it is really focusing how can I achieve the most with the least amount of personal related data. Amy:                                     17:27                     You're so right, Stefan, because I am one of those marketing guys or gals, I should say, that has a challenge here, and has to figure out how do we find that balance. And, you're right, the people that want to engage with you, they will be okay with selecting that opt-in, because obviously they find value in what you are providing to them. Lisa:                                       17:50                     Its gonna be a painful process for sure, and I think we're already starting to see that. But I think ultimately at the end of the day, you're going to be connecting in much more meaningful ways. Both from a company perspective and from and end consumer perspective. Amy:                                     18:05                     Exactly. And that touches the whole concept of connected commerce providing these personalized and meaningful touchpoints in a way that a consumer wants to engage. Amy:                                     18:15                     Okay, so do we feel that consumers could become fearful of technology that requires personal data sharing? Lisa, what do you think on that? Lisa:                                       18:26                     I think certainly, that's an increasing threat. I think it's something that everybody thinks about when they, you engage with companies that collect personal data. I mean, we've seen in the news, Cambridge Analytica, and similar-type, organizations that are using and leverage personal data in a way that maybe people didn't know about, didn't understand. It allows for targeting of consumers in a way that people don't understand. Lisa:                                       18:58                     I think also, continuing to educate consumers and to make consumers feel comfortable through transparency really, on how their data is actually being used will ultimately, hopefully (Laughs) eliminate some of those fears. That’s what various privacy initiatives like GDPR, like a number of state and federal laws in the US, and a number of laws around the world are really aiming to get at. Lisa:                                       19:32                     It’s not about, you know, sort of everybody crawling back under a rock and reverting to, (Laughs) paper. Uh, everybody understands and acknowledges that we live in a digital and a connected world, and there's a need to exchange data. But with that, there's really a need to make sure that people have knowledge and understand how that data is being used, and how that data is being shared. So, I think there's certainly fear that's out there and you can open any newspaper and see how some of that fear is manifesting itself. Lisa:                                       20:12                     But, as we kind of continue to move forward and more of these data privacy laws are enacted around the world, I think it's driving that level of transparency that will kind of put power back in the hands of consumers and allow companies who need to use that data to use it in a much more meaningful and effective way for their own customers. Stefan:                                 20:38                     I think that there's a basic suspicion, it's also because it shows that people are getting more aware of the importance and the incident around Cambridge Analytica clearly shows where that can go wrong, and there can be really some impact. Stefan:                                 20:55                     There was a time, like, 10 years ago, when people said that we are actually living in a post-data privacy era, because people were publishing everything on Facebook. And were shameless with their uttermost secrets. And I'm seeing a shift now, and, and perhaps there is also a kind of overreaction there. But I totally agree with what, what Lisa said, I think education, getting an awareness, and you know, being suspicious is good. But if you have the means to reach a protection which is useful for you as a consumer then, I think there is also a benefit there. Lisa:                                       21:39                     And you're talking to two lawyers, so we're suspicious by nature. Amy:                                     21:42                     (Laughs) Right? Lisa:                                       21:42                     (Laughs) Amy:                                     21:46                     Okay, for my last question, can we close with: What are some tips you can offer organizations to help them comply with GDPR? I'd love to hear really what you both think to close out the topic. Stefan:                                 21:59                     Of course this is very, um, highly valuable IP, which we come by (Laughs) ... Amy:                                     21:59                     (Laughs) Lisa:                                       22:03                     (Laughs) Stefan:                                 22:03                     You need to be on a very high level, otherwise we would need to charge. Amy:                                     22:08                     Right (Laughs) ... Stefan:                                 22:09                     I think the first thing is you need to be aware of your role if you're a data controller. What this actually means for you. What that means for your organization and for the infrastructure you're using. Lisa, what would you like to add? Lisa:                                       22:29                     Yeah, I mean, I think what's going to be key as we continue to go forward and we move beyond May 25th, you know, lots of companies have really been working towards this get compliant with GDPR by May 25th, and it's become this date that everybody kind of thinks about and knows about. Um, and as we continue to move forward, what I think is going to be important is making sure that you're staying vigilant around data privacy, and that your program continues to evolve and change and that you're kind of constantly looking at, "Okay, what is the data that we're processing? How are we processing it? How are we informing people? Do we have the right level of consent? Do we need to, to look at this again?" Lisa:                                       23:17                     And that continuous process of risk assessment I think is going to be critical as we continue to move forward. Again we've really moved light years past the days when we can just sort of say, "Yeah, we have a privacy notice, and, um, we don't have a great handle on how we manage things. But we've got a privacy policy, so all is good." I think we have to continue to, to look at and monitor both as a company for our internal employees, as well as companies that touch consumer data in any way, or, just their basic customer data. Making sure that we're really continuing to evaluate that and how we use it is going to continue to be critical as we move forward. Amy:                                     24:01                     Okay, great. Stefan:                                 24:04                     Also I think it's also important to understand that data privacy has got a purpose on its own. So, if you just see it like that, and you just check boxes, then it's really just a waste of time and paper. I think data privacy is a tool to serve your customers in a better way. It’s a tool to get aligned with your suppliers for example, to serve your customers in a better way and that way, I think its teamwork. Stefan:                                 24:33                     And, um, I think if you embrace it as a chance to create a better customer experience then there will be a real benefit. Exit/Closing: Amy:                                     24:46                     Got it. Well on that point we can end the discussion today. Thanks to Lisa and Stefan for being here. And to our listeners for joining this episode of Commerce Now. Amy:                                     24:57                     To find out more about Personalization Versus Privacy, go to DieboldNixdorf.com, or click on the link in the podcast show notes. Until next time, keep checking back on iTunes for new topics on Commerce Now.  

Learn more at permaculturevoices.com/21 Support the show at permaculturevoices.com/support THIS EPISODE IS A REPLAY OF PREVIOUS PUBLISHED EPISODE. Stefan Sebkowiak of Miracle Farms joins me to talk about the what's lacking in organic systems - biodiversity. And why organic is good, but creating a polyculture is a lot better. Stefan started out his journey purchasing a conventional non-organic orchard. He worked on converting it over to organic and realized that something wasn't right, something was missing. The system was lacking the biodiversity that you see in nature. So Stefan converted over his organic orchard into a permaculture, polyculture based system. He removed a lot of apple trees and replaced them with other fruit trees and support species. He added more diversity to the system giving him more products to sell, more wildlife, and ultimate a healthier, more resilient system. A lot of commercial orchardists say that polyculture won't work. Stefan has show that on a tree by tree basis he is getting as much yield as a conventional orchard. He is out there trying to prove that you gross $1.00 per square foot in a polyculture system that value adds from multiple yields - poultry, fruit, vegetables, herbs, etc. "You can read a lot, but you need to go out and test things." Learn more at permaculturevoices.com/21 Support the show at permaculturevoices.com/support THIS EPISODE IS A REPLAY OF PREVIOUS PUBLISHED EPISODE.

Stefan Sebkowiak of Miracle Farms joins me to talk about the what's lacking in organic systems - biodiversity. And why organic is good, but creating a polyculture is a lot better. Stefan started out his journey purchasing a conventional non-organic orchard. He worked on converting it over to organic and realized that something wasn't right, something was missing. The system was lacking the biodiversity that you see in nature. So Stefan converted over his organic orchard into a permaculture, polyculture based system. He removed a lot of apple trees and replaced them with other fruit trees and support species. He added more diversity to the system giving him more products to sell, more wildlife, and ultimate a healthier, more resilient system. A lot of commercial orchardists say that polyculture won't work. Stefan has show that on a tree by tree basis he is getting as much yield as a conventional orchard. He is out there trying to prove that you gross $1.00 per square foot in a polyculture system that value adds from multiple yields - poultry, fruit, vegetables, herbs, etc. "You can read a lot, but you need to go out and test things." Show Notes: www.permaculturevoices.com/21