Boxes and Lines

We're re-airing one of our most surprising and most popular episodes for you this week -- a deep dive into Aaron Burr from January 2023. This episode is guest-hosted by IEX's Jayme Abrahamsen and features Andy Kaplan (former Greenlight Capital partner, now CEO of Freedom's Edge Cider). In a previous episode, they broke down the mythology of Hamilton. This time, they turn the spotlight on his adversary, Aaron Burr. Vice President. Revolutionary War hero. Romance novel star. Duelist. Exile. They explore how Burr's legacy was rewritten by enemies like Hamilton and Jefferson, how he became a political cautionary tale, and what it says about who we choose to put on our currency and why.

Tokenization. You've been hearing about it since 2017. So have we. In this short episode of Boxes and Lines, Ronan and JR unpack the hype around tokenizing stocks — what it actually means, what it changes, and what ends up left out of the conversation. They get into the post-trade plumbing, investor protections and regulatory realities. Hit play! 

IEX is often labeled a "3% market share" venue, but what does that number really reflect? In this Boxes and Lines Lite, Ronan and JR chat with IEX's Matt Weinberg (Head of Business Development) and Sam Stevens (Head of Business Analytics) to unpack a cleaner way to think about institutional-accessible liquidity. They break down why total market share can be a misleading benchmark for routing, how "Institutional Market Share" better reflects where orders can actually interact, and what firms might be missing by benchmarking to the wrong number.

In this special FILMED episode of Boxes and Lines (check the IEX YouTube page!), Ronan and JR welcome John Palmer and Ivan Brown, who are leading IEX's charge into the options market. They get into what makes options different from equities, explain the rise of 0DTE (zero-day-to-expiration) contracts, and talk about the unique risks market makers face in a quote-driven ecosystem. They share why now is the right time for IEX to launch an options exchange, how IEX's Signal aims to protect stale quotes, and what makes this effort more than just a me-too market. Plus: JR's love for lazy rivers, 40 types of jelly, and Ronan's lunchtime cocktail. Whether you're deep in the weeds or just options-curious, this episode peels back the layers of what's going on in the market today. 

Dennis Kelleher, co-founder and CEO of Better Markets, joins Boxes and Lines for a no-holds-barred conversation on the state of financial regulation. By the end, Ronan may or may not have entered a mild fugue state.

Barry Ritholtz, founder and CIO of Ritholtz Wealth Management and host of the hit Bloomberg podcast Masters in Business, returns to Boxes and Lines to talk about his new book, How Not to Invest. Rather than presenting a traditional “how-to” manual, the book emphasizes what investors should not do, covering bad ideas, bad numbers, and bad behaviors. He joins Ronan and JR to break down everything from sketchy media advice to the famous bad trades of industry pros, why he believes market forecasts should be taken with a grain of salt, and why doing less might actually make you a better investor. 

In Part 2 of our conversation with Diana B. Henriques, the Wizard of Lies author and veteran New York Times financial journalist takes us even deeper into the world of Bernie Madoff. She shares what it was like to sit across from him in prison, unraveling the psychology behind his massive Ponzi scheme and the ways he manipulated not just his victims but everyone around him. Diana's book became the basis for the HBO film Wizard of Lies, starring Robert De Niro as Madoff. And in an unusual twist, she played herself in the movie. What was it like to act opposite De Niro, a method actor who studied Madoff's mannerisms with almost obsessive precision? And did stepping into Hollywood change the way she saw the man she had investigated for years? Give it a listen! 

Bernie Madoff was a market structure pioneer, a former NASDAQ chairman, and one of the most trusted names on Wall Street—bona fides that allowed him to architect the largest known Ponzi scheme in history under the noses of regulators. In this first episode of our two-part look at Madoff, Ronan and JR sit down with New York Times journalist Diana Henriques, author of The Wizard of Lies, which also inspired the HBO movie starring Robert De Niro. Diana, who was the first journalist to interview him in prison and played herself in the film, discusses Madoff's early rise in electronic trading, the mechanics of his $65 billion Ponzi scheme, and how he kept finance's biggest players on the hook for decades.

It's Boxes and Lines Lite, where we break down the biggest market stories in just 10–15 minutes. This time, we're tackling the DeepSeek disruption—the surprise AI breakthrough out of China that sent Nvidia's stock plunging, erased $600 billion in market value, and wiped nearly $100 billion from tech billionaires' fortunes. Ronan and JR break down why markets reacted so dramatically, how DeepSeek's low-cost, high-performance AI models are shaking up the industry, and whether this is just another dot-com-style overreaction or a real shift in the AI arms race.  

 Dave Nadig, veteran ETF expert and self-styled “financial futurist,” returns to Boxes and Lines to look into his crystal ball and let Ronan and JR know what he sees in the cards for finance in 2025. First things first: It's going to be a deeply weird year, Nadig predicts (there's a reason why a telepathy podcast recently topped the charts over Joe Rogan). Beyond that, Nadig predicts we are about to enter a “corpostate,” batten down the hatches of “fortress America”  with tariffs galore and see the dawn of “Private Markets for Grandma.” He unpacked what all this means and more with the guys on our first episode of the year.

In this special episode of Boxes and Lines, Ronan and JR are answering your questions. We're airing listener voicemails and emails, taking on everything from the future of the SEC under new leadership to the feasibility of 24-hour trading. Along the way, we brainstorm replacements for Wall Street's iconic bull, assemble the ultimate finance industry dinner guest list, and see right through a "mystery caller's" thinly disguised voice. Tune in for lots of insights and enough banter to keep you questioning how this podcast ever won an award. Plus, find out how you can send us your questions for a chance to be featured on a future episode.

In this episode of Boxes and Lines, Ronan and JR sit down with Rusa Goletiani, a chess champion turned FX trader at BlackRock. Rusa shares her incredible journey from learning chess as a young girl in Georgia (the country, not the state!) to fleeing her war-torn homeland with nothing but her beloved chess notebook in the early ‘90s. Hear how chess helped her escape and thrive, how it influenced her career in finance, and why she believes decision-making under pressure is the secret cause for both chess and trading. Plus, you'll get Rusa's thoughts on her favorite pre-game rituals, and how she coaches the next generation of players, especially girls.

AI could change how businesses operate forever – but do executives truly understand how to harness its power and uncover patterns in their data? Former KX Managing Director Conor Twomey stops by to discuss how his new venture, AI1, will help businesses make the right AI investments to capitalize on the technology. Conor also covers the finer points of building an AI prompt, what's really going on behind “hallucinations,” and what the Christopher Nolan masterpiece “The Prestige” says about the AI revolution.

In this special episode of Boxes and Lines, we're switching things up. Guest host Jayme Abrahamsen from IEX's business development team takes over the mic to chat with Patrice Meagher, founder of MilkMate. Patrice shares the story behind MilkMate , a company dedicated to providing solutions for nursing mothers in the workplace. Tune in as Jayme and Patrice take a closer look at how industries like finance—often male-dominated—can benefit from adopting more inclusive parental support policies.

The proceeds from Norway's oil and gas industry have reached $1.7 trillion – so how do its leaders manage that wealth to its citizens' benefit? Emil Framnes, Global Head of Equity Trading and Transition at Norges Bank Investment Management, talks with Ronan and JR about how the fund invests that wealth across the more than 40 countries he and his team oversee. (Fun fact: The value of the fund per Norwegian, Framnes says, is about $200,000.) The trio also touches on topics including lit vs. dark trading, Norges' bank's perspective on market structure reform and whether or not we should accept chocolate as currency. The answer is yes.

In this special, shorter “Boxes and Lines Lite” episode, Ronan and JR break down the ins and outs of penny stocks, also known as sub-dollar trading. From their speculative nature to the surprising number of these low-priced stocks trading on major exchanges, they explore why penny stocks are both risky and, at times, deceptive. With JR's insider knowledge from his days at the SEC, they also touch on Virtu's recent recommendations to the Commission on tightening the rules around penny stocks, including limiting insider dilution and cracking down on manipulation. Tune in for a whirlwind chat on trading, regulations, and what's really the deal with these tiny tickers.Related IEX Reading: IEX Square Edge | Saving Your Pennies: The Increasing Influence of Low-Priced Stocks in U.S. MarketsIEX Square Edge | Tiny Tickers, Big DramaIEX Square Edge | What the Rise in Subdollar Stock Volume Means for Institutional Trading

JR and Ronan interview IEX interns Annie, Shay, Alex, and Rory from our class of Summer 2024 with a twist: the interns are also asking some questions. As the co-hosts get in the hot seat, we hear what kept Ronan and JR up at night early in their careers, as well as their advice for the interns as these budding pros build their career paths.

In this episode of Boxes and Lines, we're joined by Patrick Young, trader, media pundit and author of late nineties fintech harbinger "Capital Market Revolution." Two decades after predicting the digitization of finance, Patrick reflects on how his forecasts have played out and what he got right, wrong, and how his lateral thinking has been both a blessing and a curse. Ronan and JR get his thoughts on AI handwringing, comparing it to the Y2K fears of the past, and explore how today's technological anxieties and millennial solipsism might shape tomorrow's markets. Patrick also shares insights from his daily newsletter, Exchange Invest, where he delivers a cheeky take on the latest in market infrastructure. Hit play and look for Patrick the next time you're watching House Hunters International.

Note**: this episode was recorded before President Biden announced he wouldn't be running for a second term ** We've got another predictions episode for you this season – this time with legendary economist Dr. Nouriel Roubini, who was given the warm and fuzzy nickname of 'Dr. Doom' by the media for his prescient prediction of the 2008 financial crisis. Dr. Roubini, a bestselling author and professor at NYU's Stern School of Business and an expert in global economics, talks about the impact of the upcoming election, what each candidate might bring to their presidency, and shares his thoughts on crypto, blockchain, and AI. He also discusses his new book, “MegaThreats,” and, in a change of pace, gives some tips on living a long, fulfilling life. Whether you agree or disagree with his viewpoints, this episode will definitely get you thinking about your own predictions for November. (Or possibly reaching for a nice stiff drink.) 

24/7 trading – it's the topic JR and Ronan love to hate and, according to a recent wave of press this year covering Wall Street's wariness to adopt it, they're not alone. But does everyone need to get with the program? Many retail brokers, including Robinhood and Interactive Brokers, offer 24-hour trading on weekdays for US stocks, and start-up 24 Exchange, backed by Steve Cohen's Point72 Ventures fund, is seeking SEC approval to launch the first always-on exchange. In this new short “Quick Take” episode with JR and Ronan, they break down the arguments for and against round-the-clock trading and weigh in. Recorded July 23, 2024.

Boxes and Lines is back from a summer break with new episodes, kicking off with this special edition featuring two legendary Irish Olympic runners, Eamonn Coghlan and Gerry O'Reilly. Running has been on Ronan Ryan's mind lately, as he's gearing up for a charity 10K race in November for GOAL, a global humanitarian organization, as part of the Great Ethiopian Run. As the chair of GOAL USA's Board of Directors, Ronan will join 45,000 other runners in Africa's largest road race to help GOAL address poverty, hunger, disease, and conflict in Ethiopia. Tune in to hear Ronan receive running tips from Eamonn and Gerry, along with some encouragement from JR via his attempt at an Irish accent. If you'd like to support Ronan and the work of GOAL, visit goalus.org. Recorded July 11, 2024.

This time, it's personal. JR and Ronan's spouses, Nick Buzard and Kara Ryan, join the show to discuss their kids, pets, their experiences navigating work-from-home life during COVID, and their advice for all newlyweds at IEX (and those listening!). For the final segment, the couples put their knowledge of each other to the test in a lightning round of the ‘Newlywed Game' where the rules get quickly thrown out the window. Who comes out victorious? And will you still want to share chips and dip at a party with JR after you listen? Find out on this week's Boxes and Lines. Recorded May 1, 2024.

In this episode of Boxes and Lines, Ronan and JR chat with Alex Kane, CEO of sports betting exchange Sporttrade. He breaks down how Sporttrade incorporates features similar to traditional elements of trading and stands out from traditional sportsbooks by offering lower costs and more control to users. He also discusses the challenges of expanding the company amid the patchwork of U.S. gambling laws, as well as elements designed to protect consumers and Sporttrade's more unique features like in-play betting. JR goes full “Godfather” and asks about horse heads in beds and kneecapping. We're going to make you an offer you can't refuse – hit play on this ep! Recorded May 9, 2024. 

Join us for the 100th episode of "Boxes and Lines" as hosts Ronan Ryan and John Ramsay celebrate this milestone with IEX's Chief Marketing and Communications Officer, Marija Zivanovic-Smith. In this special edition, we venture down memory lane with live reactions to memorable clips from the past five years. We've highlighted all the best moments, from early technical glitches to the time Ronan mistakenly called a guest by the wrong name for several minutes, and the playful squabbles between our hosts that fans know are really just one big thinly veiled lovefest. Cheers to 100 episodes and 100 more. Thanks for listening. Recorded April 17, 2024.

The “vanguard of Vanguard,” Gerry O'Reilly, stops by to chat with Ronan and JR to discuss the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund ($1.6 trillion in AUM), his 30 years at the firm, and how the industry has evolved during his tenure. The three also touch on the proposed updates to Reg NMS by the SEC, AI, and cryptocurrency in a broad-ranging hot topics segment. Not to bury the lede, but Gerry also makes Boxes and Lines history as our first guest who is a former Olympian and talks about his experience representing Ireland in the men's 1500 meters at the 1988 Summer Olympics. All this – plus Ronan making it through an entire episode without swearing – on Boxes and Lines. Recorded March 6, 2024.

The man, the myth, the legend - market structure expert Larry Tabb joins Ronan and JR to talk shop about crypto, AI, and hot-button topics including access fees, tick increments, and the SEC's regulatory direction. They also discuss the challenges of moving to T+1 settlement and whether sub-dollar trading is a “scam.” It's a must-listen episode for the true market structure (and carpentry) wonks out there. Hit play and pull up a chair at the Larry Tabb table. Recorded February 1, 2024.

This week, Ronan and JR are joined by Ellen Correia Golay, a Treasury markets advisor at the New York Federal Reserve Bank and an expert in U.S. Treasury market structure and fixed income. Ellen dispels the gold heist myths of Die Hard 3, takes a closer look at all-to-all trading in Treasury markets, and discusses the SEC's recent adoption of rules that could require principal trading firms to register as dealers. Recorded February 7, 2024.

Ronan and JR welcome back Chris Ekimoff and Kurt Wolfe, co-hosts of the 'inSecurities' podcast, to talk shop about the latest in securities regulation. With Chris's forensic accounting expertise and Kurt's background in law and SEC enforcement, they discuss the SEC's cautious stance on predictive analysis, industry reactions, and the effects of what some call the SEC's 'regulation by enforcement' approach in the crypto space. Later in the show, they discuss how lawyers can protect their mental health in an industry where 24/7 work and availability is the norm, as well as the financial advice they'd give to their younger selves. Recorded January 16, 2024.

Join us for a special episode of Boxes and Lines, featuring Neal Freyman and Toby Howell of the wildly popular newsletter, the Morning Brew. Listen as JR and Ronan learn how they've helped re-shape business news, making it digestible for millennials and Gen Z - or should we say, Zillennials - from its humble beginnings as a cheat-sheet at the University of Michigan to becoming a digital media powerhouse under Business Insider. Neal and Toby discuss the changing habits of media consumption, the craft of simplifying complicated or niche business and financial news, and the time Toby accidentally purchased $40,000 worth of Sherman Williams stock. Tune in for a lively conversation on the impact of media in finance and the work that goes into a daily podcast and newsletter, starting with arriving to the office at an eye-watering 4:45 a.m. Recorded January 11, 2024.

Join Ronan and JR as they kick off 2024 with Dave Nadig, a “Financial Futurist” for ETF Trends and ETF Database, and an all-around expert in the ETF industry. In this episode, Dave shares his predictions for the year, discussing the election's impact on investments, the prospects of ESG and clean energy, the implications of SEC-approved Bitcoin ETFs, challenges in active ETFs, insights on Cathie Wood's ARK in 2023, and the role of AI in finance. Get out your crystal balls out and compare your notes on what lies ahead with Dave on this special episode. Recorded January 9, 2024.

Shelley Eleby, Managing Director and Head of Marketing for Electronic Trading at BMO Capital Markets, joins Ronan and JR to talk strategy and the key to strong branding in an era of shrinking screen sizes and attention spans. An industry veteran, Eleby discusses her wariness of AI and the “shiny penny” effect it seems to be having across all aspects of business, including finance. Eleby and BMO's focus is, instead, on market microstructure, an area where the company is experimenting to understand how new trading tactics play out in real markets. She reflects on her career journey, the role of corporate culture, and the importance of diversity in finance. Her advice for women in the industry: know your product deeply and always ask 'why.' Recorded December 7, 2023.

Amy Magnotta brings her expert take on the state of equity markets to the pod as we approach 2024. The Co-Chief Investment Officer at Ategenos Capital sheds light on everything from the fed's stance on interest rates, alpha drivers and the promising outlook for Japan, and potential tailwinds from the U.S. Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act. As 2024 looms as a “spicy” election year, Amy shares her strategies for navigating these politically choppy waters. Recorded December 5, 2023.

Ronan and JR are joined this week by Michael Seigne, a finance industry veteran with extensive experience in equity execution, and the founder of Candor Partners Limited. Listen as Michael breaks down the intricacies of corporate share buybacks and how these hotly debated practices influence shareholder value and corporate governance for public companies. Recorded November 16, 2023.

While you were still sleeping, the stock market was busy getting ready for the day. Ramon “Ray” Gonzalez, Head of Technology Operations for IEX Exchange, joins Ronan and JR to walk us through the checklist his team goes through every day – starting at 4 am – to get the market ready for smooth sailing. Plus, they delve into “bare metal” infrastructure, data centers, and the potential for exchanges to move into the cloud. Recorded January 31, 2022. 

Jim Toes, President and CEO of the Securities Traders Association and a leading voice in market structure, joins Ronan and JR on the pod this week. Jim gives the guys a sneak peek of what's on the docket for STA's 90th Annual Market Structure Conference, and also discusses the rise of stablecoins and Bitcoin ETFs, his thoughts on the SEC's proposed market structure reforms, the implications of a 24-hour trading day, and the greatest moment in the Big Short. Recorded October 3, 2023.  

Anna Kurzrok, managing director of market structure at Jefferies, joins Ronan and JR to dive into the nuts and bolts of U.S. equities market structure. They chat about what the SEC's market structure proposals will mean for the big institutional players and everyday traders, the trajectory of AI in trading, the fragmentation of trading venues, and what's going on with off-exchange trading. Recorded August 29, 2023.

Barry Ritholtz, CIO of Ritholtz Wealth Management, and host of the popular Bloomberg podcast “Masters In Business,” joins JR and Ronan to discuss lessons learned from the 2008 financial crisis, misconceptions about inflation, and how the best way to gain experience is through not getting what you want. Tune in for a deep dive into the financial markets with Barry, who reveals how his background in behavioral finance and his fearless approach when launching his blog, the “Big Picture,” earned him the reputation as “one of the most dangerous people in financial media.” Recorded August 8th, 2023.

JR and Ronan are joined by Giancarlo, Annabelle, and Dennis - three of IEX's 2023 summer interns - for this special episode about the aspirations of America's upcoming workforce. Though Gen Z had to navigate remote schooling during Covid, grappling with global warming, and witnessing seemingly constant political and economic shifts, this episode reveals that what's on their mind might resonate more closely with previous generations than one might think. Recorded August 8th, 2023. 

What needs to change about the finance industry in order to close the gender gap? What will the next generation of Wall Street leaders look like? How will Gen Zers shape workplace culture - and the finance industry? On the latest episode of Boxes and Lines, Ronan and JR are joined by Katherine Jollon Colsher, President and CEO of Girls Who Invest, to discuss the longstanding gender gap within the finance industry and how Girls Who Invest is providing young women access to resources and education programs in asset management. They also discuss the necessity of bringing diverse perspectives into the workplace, the importance of management training, and what intersectionality really means. Recorded July 19, 2023.

It's the debut of “Dear Boxes and Lines,” our listener mailbag series in which Ronan and JR are answering listeners' most pressing questions. What would JR and Ronan change about market structure if they could wave their magic wands? What's the hardest thing about operating a stock exchange? Who are their dream guests? (Elvis, we'll figure out how to get your invite sent to the Great Graceland in the Sky). Hit play and get to know Ronan and JR outside the boxes and lines. Recorded July 12, 2023.

Duncan Higgins, founder of Sustainable Trading, joins Ronan and JR to discuss what it means to “trade sustainably.” They also touch on the environmental impact of data centers, the creation and implementation of best practices for firms (should employees be powering computers with stationary bikes?), and the global effects of changes in ESG legislation. Recorded June 21, 2023. 

We're dipping into our archives for this episode of Boxes and Lines and revisiting our episode with Eric “Batch” Budish (nickname bestowed by us), the Paul G. McDermott Professor of Economics and Entrepreneurship at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, whose groundbreaking paper, “The High Frequency Trading Arms Race: Frequent Batch Auctions as a Market Design Response” has helped shape exchange design proposals in stock markets and futures markets. Featuring an updated intro from Ronan and JR. Original episode recorded July 28, 2021.

Ronan and JR are joined by Eric Stockland and Joe Wald of BMO Capital Markets on our latest episode to discuss the recent proposed market reforms by the SEC. Listen as they navigate the intricate web of regulations and the potential impact these reforms could have on the stock market, investors and the future of financial markets. Recorded April 5, 2023. 

On the newest episode of Boxes and Lines, Ronan and JR chat with Dana Petitto, Managing Director of Brookfield Real Estate Group and CFO of Brookfield REIT. Dana discusses how she was able to strategically envision and implement growth in a functional way as her company's portfolio has grown significantly during her 18-year tenure. The gang also talks about growing throughout the COVID-19 pandemic and how to navigate working from home while fostering an in-office culture. Dana describes her various roles in organizations that support women and mothers and the importance of providing support and networking opportunities for women in finance. Recorded March 28, 2023.

Allow us to introduce Dispatch, a digital commerce platform powered by Web3, and one of IEX's portfolio of businesses. In this live interview at the Dispatch Studio pop-up (which took place during this year's #NFTNYC), Ronan and JR talk to Byron Sorrells, CEO and Co-Founder of Dispatch, and Eugene Hu, Head of Global Partnerships at Ledger, about the fascinating intersection between blockchain “magic” and ecommerce, the current state of Web3 (and what it is, anyway), and the real-world uses cases it currently enables. Recorded April 12, 2023.

Ronan and JR are joined by Armando Diaz, CEO of institutional trading platform PureStream. Seeing a need for platforms that could better scale and be more efficient, Armando built PureStream from the bottom up with the hopes of making a difference in the industry. The group discusses what exactly goes into launching a venue, the biggest pain points in the world of institutional trading today - plus what's most exciting about it. Recorded on March 9, 2023.

Getting regular manicures is expensive and time consuming, inspiring Rachel Apfel Glass to found a subscription-based, waterless nail service in 2018 in New York City. Since then, ex-hedge funder Glass has grown her business to include various cities throughout the country. Listen as guest host and IEXer Jayme Abrahamsen returns to interview Rachel, discussing the genesis of her idea, what it's been like as an entrepreneur and CEO in the space, and where Glosslab is headed in the future. Recorded March 1, 2023.

Aaron Brown, Bloomberg columnist and former managing director and head of financial market research at AQR Capital Management joins Ronan and JR on this episode of Boxes + Lines to chat about the intersection of poker and finance. Aaron deals some great insights into the mind of a professional gambler and the kind of thinking that makes not just a successful poker player, but a successful trader as well. He shares tales from the secretive world of pro poker in the 80's and bets on the future of AI trading. Recorded February 21, 2023. 

Steve Kaminsky of Jump Crypto joins Ronan and JR on this episode of Boxes + Lines to break down The Pyth Network, an oracle that acts as a bridge between on-chain and off-chain applications to provide crypto values and other market data. The group discusses the value of using Pyth and the benefits that come along with contributing data to the network. We also hear about the latest crypto trends to keep an eye on. Recorded January 19, 2023. 

On the latest episode of Boxes + Lines, Ronan and JR welcome back Joe Saluzzi of Themis Trading. The group shares secrets to longevity that all founders can benefit from (staying relevant, for one!), as well as how to distill information for clients. They also discuss what goes into protecting client privacy, what changing tick sizes would mean for traders, and what would need to happen for institutional investors to get into crypto. Recorded October 05, 2022. 

IEX's Jayme Abrahamsen and former Greenlight Capital partner and CEO and founder of Freedom's Edge Cider Andy Kaplan return to the podcast this week for a continuation of their conversation about our cultural fascination with Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr. This episode looks specifically at Burr, a one-time rising political star and U.S. vice president who by the end of his life was exiled to Paris and eating from garbage cans. Our guest hosts look at the blurring of Burr's legacy over time, the re-writing of his history from dubious sources like Thomas Jefferson and Hamilton (who were his enemies), our modern need to view the founding fathers as emblems of power and unification (and the impact this had on U.S. currency) and why we've gotten so much wrong about Burr over the years. Recorded on November 30, 2022.