The only real answer is Jesus. The only real problem is Sin. The only real work is the Cross. In the end, we only have Him. Discipling by Jesus (DBJ) is a group "co-devotional" practice for encountering the crucified Christ. By working through His Word & Spirit, Body & Blood we explore greater depths of the Father’s love as we surrender to the Holy Spirit.
Ernest Prabhakar, Robby Butler
“What if the key to deeper faith isn't more clarity, but more connection?”In this intimate, spirit-led conversation, Ernie and Robby reconnect after a season apart to reflect on the quiet work of God in their lives. Wrestling with relational tensions, spiritual growth, and cultural dislocation, they gently explore how Christ invites us into a new way of being—one that prioritizes connection over separation.This unscripted episode sets the tone for a potential new season of their journey: revisiting old wounds, honoring past lessons, and stepping into a shared vulnerability rooted in love, presence, and identity in Jesus. Along the way, they ask brave questions about marriage, church, community, and the sometimes hidden ways healing begins.Whether this becomes a full season or remains a sacred conversation between friends, it's a soft launch into something new—and possibly, something holy.See also: Interpreting “One New Humanity” Through a Diaphoric Lens
Tune in for an episode exploring a powerful new concept drawn from the heart of divine reality! We'll delve into Diaphoris: The Ecstatic Agony of Divine Glory. While classic theology speaks of perichoresis – the beautiful, ancient word for the mutual indwelling and interpenetration of the Trinity – we'll unpack something more dynamic, more painful, and more creative.Starting with Jesus' prayer in John 17, we'll see that the glory He gives is not about uniformity or comfort, but a oneness mirrored in the Trinity that is a communion of distinction. This isn't just a present dance, but a movement, a journey. We introduce diaphoris (from dia, "through/apart," and phorēin, "to bear") as the sacred dynamic where difference is borne, crossed, and ultimately reconciled, generating deeper communion.Diaphoris speaks not just of interrelation, but of the journey to it. It names the agonizing ecstasy of love willing to be torn to embrace, capturing the rhythm of the Cross. Glory is framed not as stability, but as movement: separation creating space for love, otherness inviting encounter, suffering opening the way to deeper union. Christ is glorified not despite, but through, being lifted up, torn apart, and returned.This dynamic echoes across creation, from cells dividing to cultures diverging, and is seen in the Church scattering and gathering, fractured yet drawn into reconciled communion. It's a fractal, cruciform process where difference becomes the womb of deeper unity. John 17 is an invitation to become a people shaped by this dynamic glory. We are called to live diaphorically: bearing difference with grace, enduring separation in hope, and embracing tension as the birthplace of communion.Join us as we explore this path of glory, the living oneness of the Godhead, and the prayer of Christ still echoing and reconciling. This is where love does not collapse difference, but transfigures it.
Did Christ Die to Cause or Transmit Forgiveness?Are we misunderstanding the Cross? Many preach that the Father had to be persuaded to forgive us, requiring Christ's death as appeasement for divine wrath. But what if this reverses the gospel? This episode explores the perspective of Athanasius of Alexandria, who argued that God's forgiveness was already inherent. He viewed the Incarnation and Crucifixion not as a response to divine wrath, but as a healing and restoration of human nature corrupted by sin. Discover why Athanasius saw the Cross as a surgical intervention to mend humanity's brokenness, leading to union with the divine and ontological transformation, rather than a legal transaction. Learn why he called us to embrace the scandalous mercy of God, recognizing the Cross as an expression of love aimed at human sanctification and communion. Tune in to understand why Athanasius insisted, "The Problem Was Never With the Father" and that in Christ crucified, we see the heart of the Father made visible.
This piece, "Christ the Only True Heresy: Rejecting Unbiblical Separation," presents a radical theological argument that challenges traditional Christian concepts of orthodoxy and heresy. The author argues that the biblical meaning of "heresy" refers to division and separation, not incorrect doctrine, as later established by human institutions. Through a metaphorical "Revelation" and a historical appendix, the text proposes that Jesus Christ is the only true "heresy"because he is the sole source of legitimate division between light and darkness, while other divisions are harmful. The piece critiques churches that create divisions based on doctrine, seeing these actions as a form of false heresy and a departure from Christ's teachings of unity and love.
NotebookLM Prompt:Target youth pastors working in traditional churches. Focus on the future of identity formation as reflected in poetry, and how they can help kids express an identity rooted in the eternal Word of Christ. Based on Younger Self Café: Did Romantic Poets Invent “Youth?” and follow-ons —-Here's a detailed briefing document summarizing the key themes and ideas from the provided "Younger Self Café" blog posts:Briefing Document: Younger Self Café SeriesOverview:The "Younger Self Café" is a recurring blog series that explores the concept of "youth" through conversations with figures from various historical and cultural movements. Each post features a fictional roundtable discussion with prominent artists, writers, and thinkers, examining what "youth" means from different perspectives. The café itself is depicted as a timeless and ever-changing space, adapting to each era's aesthetic and ideas. The consistent thread is the exploration of youth as not just a stage of life but a potent force for change, creativity, and self-discovery, with implications that extend far beyond the chronological period of being young.Main Themes and Ideas:Youth as a Transformative Force:Revolution and Rebellion: Many of the figures view youth as inherently linked to challenging the status quo. Elvis Presley equates youth with rebellion, "shaking things up," and breaking free from societal constraints. Similarly, the Romantic poets saw youth as a time for revolution and dreaming, as Shelley declares: “...youth became sacred—a time for rebellion, for dreaming of what the world could be.” The Beat Generation echoes this with Ginsberg's idea that youth involves "refusing to accept" the world as it is and using one's voice to challenge it. Maya Angelou also emphasizes youth as "the vanguard of change" and its role in the civil rights movement.Innovation and Creation: Ezra Pound emphasizes youth as a force for action and innovation, stating, "Youth is not a time for dreaming; it is a time for action.” This is later seen in Diane di Prima's view of youth as "creation" and the "spark that lights the fire." The slam poets in a later installment describe youth as "a storm, unpolished, untamed," a creative force needing to be expressed.Self-Discovery and Identity: Many speakers highlight youth as a time for exploring one's identity. Billy Joel sees youth as "figuring out who you are." H.D. views youth as "an inward motion—a retreat into the self" where one uncovers one's true nature. Even the TikTok generation is described as a space for "self-expression," where Alok says, “We don't need perfection; we need connection. Youth is the ‘FYP' of the soul.”Youth as a Feeling or State of Mind, Not Just an Age:Timelessness: Many figures move beyond a purely chronological definition of youth. Katy Perry says, "...it's about keeping that spark, no matter your age." Billy Joel says it's "a feeling, and music keeps that feeling alive." Keats calls it the "truest form of self" that stays with us as we age.The "Younger Self": The idea of a "Younger Self" is a recurring motif throughout the series. It represents a core part of an individual that embodies youthful traits like curiosity, passion, and a refusal to settle. Ginsberg describes the younger self as “the part of you that keeps searching, keeps seeing, keeps feeling”. The final note of the Romantics' discussion is a toast “to the Younger Self—not as an immature adult, not as a fleeting stage, but as the eternal fire within.”Connection to the Eternal: Yeats suggests youth is a "thread that binds us to the eternal," and that even as the body ages, the spirit remains connected to its younger self.Divergent Perspectives on the Nature of Youth:Skepticism and Challenges: While many see youth as positive, some voices offer counterpoints. T.S. Eliot describes youth as "a shadow," a period of "missed opportunities." William Burroughs views youth as "chaos," "a virus," and something that is consumed by the world. Joan Didion observes that much of the counterculture is "performance," though still meaningful.The Need for Growth and Balance: James Baldwin emphasizes that youth must "grow, learn, listen," and that while the counterculture aspired to freedom, they had to be cognizant of it for all people. Wordsworth warns against idealizing youth too much, noting it's but one stage in the growth of the human spirit.The Importance of Action: Pound notes that youth is wasted if spent "on longing and self-pity." He implores young people to "make it new" by creating and innovating and is an idea picked up by others later.The Role of Art and Expression:Music as a Time Machine: The musical epilogue shows how music is seen as a way to encapsulate and evoke the feeling of youth, with Billy Joel stating “Music is like a time machine—it takes you back to those moments..."Poetry as a Form of Revolution and Self-Expression: The posts feature various forms of poetry, from Romantic odes to Beat-era howls to the raw energy of slam poetry. The poetry itself is presented as a medium for youth to challenge norms and express their feelings. The slam poets see themselves "rewriting the world in the spaces we split." Amanda Gorman describes youth as a "lighthouse," using poetry to "shine a light."Modern Mediums as a Tool for Youth: TikTok is portrayed as a way for the modern generation to express itself, with its short, impactful videos. Lila's take in particular is about authenticity and capturing moments in time.The Legacy of Past Generations:The Ongoing Conversation: The recurring café setting illustrates that the conversation about youth is ongoing. The ghosts of the Romantic poets watch the Early Moderns and murmur their own insights, and then similar interactions can be seen between other groups. Each generation builds upon or challenges the ideas of those who came before.Carrying the Essence of Youth Forward: Even figures who have moved beyond their youth, such as Yeats, suggest that they still carry the "essence" of their younger selves, thus making youth a continuing factor in the development of their wisdom and purpose.Key Quotes:Elvis Presley: “Youth? Man, youth is rebellion. It's shaking things up—literally… It gave kids a voice, a way to say, ‘I'm here, and I ain't gonna sit still.'”Billy Joel: “Youth isn't just a stage in life. It's a feeling, and music keeps that feeling alive.”Garth Brooks: “For me, youth is about connection… It's about finding your people, your tribe, the ones who make you feel like you belong.”T.S. Eliot: “Youth is not a promise of becoming; it is the burden of what one might fail to become.”H.D.: “Youth is an inward motion—a retreat into the self, a peeling away of the layers imposed by society.”Ezra Pound: “Youth is not a time for dreaming; it is a time for action.”Jack Kerouac: “Youth, man—it's not something you grow out of. It's a ...
What spiritual disciplines may help us break our destructive relational patterns faster?Written CovenantsSubmission (not necessarily to our wives)JournalingTwo Bonus disciplines (not mentioned on the podcast).Solitude ("three days")Courts of Heaven (12-Step Worksheet)
Is "relational connection" more important than "operational effectiveness"?Is our real challenge NOT that we prioritize God over people, but work over love?Can we demonstrate love without relying on either words or works?
How has our left-brained thinking damaged our marriages?What can Jesus do about it?
Bridging the gap between Intimacy and Impact with Incarnation, aka "procreation"10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal,but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.Philippians 3:10-12
What is it that truly troubles our heart?Is this disturbance actually from God, to provoke us to flee religious compliance and carnal indulgence in favor of ecstatic union with the Trinity?John 14
How do we sustainably enter into God's rest? Is it by only doing what we see God doing?Hebrews 4
What if the real war is not between "biblical" and "secular" culture, but "left-brain" WEIRD versus "right-brain" Traditional -- with neither actually on God's side?
Healing from “Childhood Emotional Neglect” (CEN)Childhood Emotional Neglect (as a child or teen) results in emotional disconnect and lack of emotional intelligence.In a marriage, one or both spouses may need healing from CENSpouses who need healing will often exhibit these 10 characteristics…Misread each other's feelings.Avoid discussing difficult topics to avoid conflict.Be unable to argue productively.Focus on logistics rather than feelings.Not confide in each other.React inappropriately if the other confides.Not feel like a team.Feel alone even with their spouse.Have difficulty finding topics to discuss.Feel awkward experiencing positive emotions like love, or only feel them during sex.When children are emotionally neglected:Children raised with emotional neglect:Don't know how to express their emotions and don't feel comfortable expressing their emotions (because they were not asked questions such as “How are you?,” “Are you sad?,” etc.).Don't learn how to recognize and discuss emotions (others or their own)Hide their emotions and may not be aware of them.Do not understand themselves or their own needs or feelings (or others).
Are we lying to ourselves?Will listening better to our Others help us find the truth?* I Told Me So: Self-Deception and the Christian Life* Living Fearless - Jamie WinshipComing up on Feb 14: VaLENTine Men's Study
How do we prove to the world that we don't need the same things they want?Warning: spoiler alert for Crazy Rich Asians.“The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” John 10:17-18 See also 12/2 Tri-Quatrain: Choose to Lose
What if the true opposition to the gospel is hidden inside our own implicit assumptions about reality? Identifying and confronting our emotional distress is essential for identifying our lack of alignment with the Father's will. For you, I believe that taking up *your* cross would require you to actively pursue becoming aware of and confronting the roots of your emotional distress, because you have become addicted to a superficial yielding that does not result in emotional catharsis or true intimacy. I need to go now and do the exact same thing with MY wife (confront the roots of MY emotional distress).Four Stages of Engagement. Try to fix your problem Step back and let you fix it yourself Incarnate into the tension beneath the problem Demonstrate Christ's new victory
Does Jesus -- unlike Pharisees and philosophers -- require His disciples to sacrifice our "digital abstraction of self" in order to confront the emotional distress that lurks beneath?My impression, partly from the poem you shared but which I suspect is a gross misunderstanding on my part, is that you think that Jesus is demanding that we daily re-live the emotional distress of facing the death of our self.Your impression is essentially correct, though perhaps not _quite_ as bad as you probably think...
During most of the gospels, the disciples wanted a king who would destroy their enemies rather than a savior who would destroy their sin. My Christ-less failure mode is trying to destroy your sin instead of [before] confronting my own. Luke 9:18-26 22 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.” 23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.
Is a relationship with God about obeying His will or enjoying His presence?Or something else entirely?
Should our highest value be allowing God to rewrite our values?Can externalizing our eternal values enable us to maintain integrity while being fully emotional present for others?
What does it mean to love our community the way Christ does his friends? The Opposite Of Addiction Is Not Sobriety – It Is Human Connection Anthem: Follow The Way Of Christ (Becoming “Foot-Washers”) John 15:13: Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends. Matthew 16:23: Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.” Matthew 5:11: Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
What is needed to keep growing us all closer to Jesus? Our strategy (ultimate goal) is to love (hesed) the Lord our God with all our heart, all our soul, all our mind, and all our strength (particularly via loving our families as our selves). Our tactics include various spiritual disciplines (tools and tasks). Operational Discipleship is ensuring we accomplish the right objectives (management), which is what aligns tasks (execution) with goals (leadership). The paradigmatic verse for this is Luke 9:23, where we escape the cultural identity of Christendom by: Denying the current version of our Self (personal, relational, societal) Taking up our cross daily (the very thing our homeostatic self doesn't want us to see, much less do) Following Jesus (after the cross as our new self, not just before it as our old self) References: Speck to Beam to Cross: Responsive Discipleship From Christendom to Christ: Religion vs Relationship My Thick Geas: Growing Closer to Christ / Through His Cross Discipling By Jesus
What does Christ think about good and evil?Is anyone more evil than "you"?https://biblehub.com/luke/11-13.htmIf you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
"Productive Vulnerability" as the narrative protocol to both unmask our own self-deception and reveal the power of Christ. This is the redemptive alternative to either withdrawal or control(as a way to cope with the dysphoria from encountering our mutual brokenness). Withdrawal and control can be effective in reducing short-term pain,but fail to confront the underlying brokennessand are thus toxic to the authenticity required for healthy long-term relationships. See also: Faith in two syllables Axiom 1. We are all broken Axiom 2. Christ is the cure Childing -> Adulting -> Christing (like Jesus)
Is working through "brokenness" (versus information or skill) our greatest challenge?Ernie struggles with broken audio to explain the joy of sharing/healing our brokenness (aka sin) with Jesus.Poetry reading: 8/8 Tri-Limerick: Don't Look Downhttps://2transform.us/dbj/The only real answer is Jesus. The only real problem is Sin. The only real work is the Cross. In the end, we only have Him.
What happens when the law meant to unite us ends up diving us?Is God calling us to shift from Jehu to Elisha?
# Ernie Not wanting to incarnate into other peoples dysfunction Do I want to heal people from their brokenness so that I can identify with them? VS Am I willing to identify with people in their brokenness so that God can heal us # Robby Jesus, how do I grow closer to You in such a way that Your Spirit most deeply shapes what I want and what I pursue? A common tension -- between pursuing the mission and caring for the members -- reflects the feelings among my own family that I “don't care about them.” The most important question for me is “What does Jesus want?” My focus tends to then be on how *I* can pursue what *I* imagine He wants. However this overlooks the reality that the first thing He wants from me is intimacy with me. # Reframing Offense"Being versus Feeling Annoyed" Objective analysis (of their wrong) Self-awareness (of my "blaming" thought cycles) Emotional introspection (of the anger/frustration behind those cycles) Humble recognition (that my issues intersect with theirs) Conscious identification (that we both need the same grace)
How do we balance the tension between: Performance: getting the job done Conformance: getting along Precisely by confronting those areas where we are unable to hold that tension,in order to experience Christ's transformationhttps://biblehub.com/luke/9-23.htmThen he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.
# Decenter Civilization - Civilization as we know it is endemically (widely? intrinsically?) corrupt- This corruption is manifest in individuals caught up in a systemic web of toxic incentives- We can't go back to "innocent" societies of autonomous villages- God wants us to seek something betterWhat should be our response?- our goal- our role- our soul## Systemic Corruption1. Societies become (imperial) civilizations to provide more of a scarce public good (typically military security vs long-term threats)2. Centralized systems are the easiest way to increase productivity for those scarce goods [also create an umbrella for "boutique" decentralized alternatives]3. Only when systems are sophisticated enough to have an "intent" can we have aligned versus mis-aligned incentives ("corruption")4. We have to go beyond that system to discuss whether such corruption is "evil"## Compare: The Logos Cyclehttps://twitter.com/microurbanism/status/1667589489869590530- Logos defines an identity- Existence as homeostasis: compressible/durable- How local costs create global benefit- Sin is violation of that logos- Without logos there is no sin- Once there is logos, sin is inevitable - Adding new logos to fix the old sin creates complexity that causes more sin- To do better, we must crucify the old logos to birth a new one- The best we can do is to get better at the cycle of crucifixion and new birth https://www.youtube.com/@datocracy
What is the source of large-scale, structural evil?Is it endemic to civilization?Can civilization be reformed, or must it be transformed?# Decenter Civilization - Civilization as we know it is endemically (intrinsically?) corrupt- This corruption is manifest in individuals caught up in a systemic web of toxic incentives- We can't go back to "innocent" societies of autonomous villages- God wants us to seek something betterWhat should be our response?- goal- role- soul
Discussion of 5/21 Poem: Peaceful SeeRobby's Feel/Like/Observe/Wonder: F: Ambivalent L: Moving from Blindness to Seeing O: Focuses on sin within W: Is this the ONLY way God calls us to overcome societal evil? Ernie's response: I prefer the category of "cultural" evil, which includes both personal and societal evil caused by our conditioning I agree God the Father often calls us to "oppose" external evil [with lesser evils], but Christ invites us to overcome it with good. 1 John 5:16-21“Suppose you see one of our people commit a sin that isn't a deadly sin. You can pray, and this person will be given eternal life. But the sin must not be one that is deadly. Everything that is wrong is sin, but not all sins are deadly. We are sure God's children do not keep on sinning. God's own Son protects them, and the devil cannot harm them. We are certain we come from God and the rest of the world is under the power of the devil. We know that Jesus Christ the Son of God has come and has shown us the true God. And because of Jesus, we now belong to the true God who gives eternal life. Children, you must stay away from idols.”Next Time: Defining "Law" and "Freedom"
How do we take responsibility without taking control? Is there a difference between Stewardship and Headship? Can we maintain cohesion without top-down compressive structures?
When we connect to God With ALL our heart, soul, mind & strengthWe will connect to our neighborAs we connect to our self
My birthday episode, recording from my car in a parking lot. Possibly after too much beer...
Prior conversations 2021-11-26 Zoasophy: Beyond Enlightenment w/Elijah Ware (THS YouTube) 2021-11-09 Does Religion see Questioning as Doubt? w/Elijah Ware (DBJ podcast, S2 E41) 2021-10-30 Zoasophy/Divine Metaphysics: Necessary Anxiety w/Elijah Ware (THS YouTube) 2021-10-28 GROMP: Reconciling Perspectives #zoasophy with guest Elijah Ware, Divine Metaphysicist (Twitter @stoosian) Other references Zephyr on Apple Podcasts: Elijah Ware (Active) Listening to Part Of Me: Ernie's Two Questions
Luke 9:18-27 (Who is Jesus to Me?)1 John 1The Incarnation of the Word of Life1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[a] joy complete.Light and Darkness, Sin and Forgiveness5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
https://www.bible.com/bible/100/rom.8.13-14.NASB1995for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.Someone just claimed that a) this is the only verse that explicitly talks about "being led by the Spirit" and b) it is focused primarily on "holiness" rather than "guidance."This would be a significant shift from how I've thought about being Spirit-led. I'm curious whether it matches your understanding or experience!What if… being led by the Spirit is a good practice, but bad theology, because it takes our focus away from obeying Christ's commands?
Cain and God's blessing on libertarians
A Call for Sonship in the Body of Christ Three Dimensions of Christian Identity
Ernie pushes the importance of loving Jesus with more of our a) strength, b) mind, c) heart and d) soul
What Discipleship Is (and Isn't)TC-1d2: Defining DiscipleshipTruth Bowl Beta 4: Alternative Models of Education (2019-08-29 Finale)
What causes divisions among us? Is totalitarianism ever part of God's plan? Aren't pornography and addictive drugs contrary to "Kingdom Values?" Has the mainstream narrative started to squelch alternatives? Is it important to restore what we have lost? Wouldn't we be better off with a more scientific approach? References Dream: Gun Control (Dr. Ernie) Books that bust bubbles (DHH) Systemic Racism's Greatest Hits (The Glenn Show) “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.”Romans 8:28-29 NIV
Shifting from "talking about practices" to "fostering a culture of growing closer to Jesus"
Previous Conversations between Elijah and Ernie 10/30/20201 Zoasophy/Divine Metaphysics: Necessary Anxiety (YouTube) 11/20/2021 What in the world is God Doing!!!! (Wisdom App) 11/26/2021 Zoasophy: Beyond Enlightenment (YouTube) Bonus: my (indirect) response to Elijah's criticism:Socrates Repents (An Alternative “Apology”)
Ernie argues the practice of "hearing and obeying Jesus" may be necessary, but not sufficient, for truly "making disciples" of Jesus
https://www.emotionallyhealthy.org/product/emotionally-healthy-spirituality-update-revised-edition/The [other] book is called, “In the Footsteps of Francis and Claire.” It was written by Roch Niemier, published by St. Anthony Messenger Press, ISBN 978-0-66716-793-1.
Ernie and Brent explore, confess, and repent of how their conditioning and reactions trigger each other
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