Podcasts about k yeah

We recorded this episode on Independence Day so we could ask one simple question... WHAT THE F**K IS A KILOMETER?! STARS AND STRIPES BABY! BILMURI AND CARTOONS!  This was a hell of an episode to record so we are sure you will enjoy listening to it as well!

Nebraska Volleyball did a lot worse than we all thought they would do yesterday. Some people also were not fans of the post-game comments from the team.

Join Slade, Joey and Tim where we talk about Call of Duty: World at War. It's good innit

We talk about the departure of Ndiaye and the arrival of Auston Trusty, our first true American signing in decades. We also make our predictions about the upcoming 2023-24 season in the Premier League. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube https://www.facebook.com/theredhalfofsheffield/ Twitter - @redsheffield YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@redhalfofsheffield Noah Snyder Instagram - @Sunpuck Twitter - @Nessman930 Chad Jarvis Instagram and Twitter - @cjarvis_13

Today on the radio show. 1 - Smoko Chat. 5 - Friday F Yeah's. 8 - Jay's Bike Yarn. 13 - Friday Funny. 17 - English Language is Poked. 21 - Crook Book. 23 - Chuck Norris. 26 -Friday Funny. 30 - Paragon Movie Interview. 35 - Late Mail. 38 - Last Drinks. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today on the radio show. 1 - Smoko Chat. 5 - Autoglym Winner. 9 - Friday F Yeah's. 13 - Friday Funny. 17 - Josh Homme Pt.1. 21 - Josh Homme Pt.2. 25 - Mildly Annoying. 28 - Crook Book. 33 - Friday Funny. 35 - Pub Quiz. 40 - Friday F Yeah's. 41 - The English Language is a Punish. 45 - World Record for the most Puppies in One Litter. 48 - Late Mail. 51 - Last Drinks. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week Dan, Brad from Canada & Coach Dave all give you our weekly Recommendations : Based on a True Story Frogger After Yang Fast X Then, Brad gives us a quick look at the new Transformers Movies and wether or not its worth seeing in Theaters. Plus (that) big moment at the end. Then we end the show giving our Top 5 F Yeah Moments in Movies & TV. What makes your list? Let us know on Twitter @SceneInvaders Thanks for listening! SUBSCRIBE! Please Subscribe! Check out our podcast! Links are below. Podcast Platforms:  Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/scene-invaders/id1289489168?uo=4 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2Uzl1JcV9WlncUufpvW4No Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/scene-invaders-productions/scene-invaders Anchor: https://anchor.fm/scene-invaders Email — SceneInvaders@gmail.com Website - Scene-Invaders.com  Socials: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sceneinvaders/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SceneInvadersPodcast Twitter: https://twitter.com/SceneInvaders

Giannis and Sean go back to the Old West with "My Name Is Nobody".Support the showFollow us on:FacebookTwitterInstagram

The old Jen's gonna be jelly of my new me, Das all I can say! Booya! --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/jennifer-mendoza34/message

Grab your Monster Hanual and meet Matt at the dump for an all new LIVE! It's 2023 and the pickup pizza boiz are doing revolutions and talking about what makes them say “f#%k yeah!” Nate is looking a little hamstery. Matt is writing a movie in 21 days. Pat is going to read two books this year and is taking suggestions. Plus, no more spaghetti on the carpet. John Wick on a horse. Over/Under on how many people cut you off while you're heading to work. It's all about the reflexes and it all happens LIVE!

"Thats Gonna Be 0-3 for me this week Baby!" -TM, NFL Week 10 Seer We review the week 10 Episode of the NFL Series entitled "Still Don't Know WTF is going on but the Lions and Dolphins Won so F%&K YEAH!" Chad D visits the place formerly known as Orchard Park with the Prop King and begins his addiction to losing Money for fun #GamblingIsBadMmKay Did I mention the Fins are in First? #TuaTime Got any comments on our Week 10 NFL Recap? Leave a Voicemail: 708.316.8822 Get caught up on The Binge Sportscast NFL Midseason Awards! Show Notes: BS Voicemail #: 708-316-8822@Bingesportscastbingesportscast@gmail.com #bingemedia #podcastnetwork #bingeon #LFGM Support Binge Media! Leave a voicemail for The BingeCast at 708-406-9546 Subscribe to The Full Binge on Patreon Follow Binge Media on Facebook Join the Binge Media Facebook Group Follow Binge Media on Instagram Go to ParkScents.com and use the discount code BINGE20 at checkout for 20% off your entire order Additional music by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio

Join me for this week's bonus episode of What Would Amber Do? It was such a delight to have Aina Adler on the show.  Aina is the CEO and creative genius behind The Taboo Priestess! Aina helps good people stop finishing last, by coaching them to take back their power and live the life they deserve. Her commitment is simple and yet so impactful: That people have power! NOTE: This episode contains explicit language. Join us as we discuss:- Her journey to pivot her business- Helping good people finishing last- What gets in the way of people having power- F**k yeah's, owning our desires- Being an apex predator- Impact of guilt and shame- Her upcoming Jungle Cat Magnetism Join us for this raw, authentic, fun, and powerful conversation!Connect with Aina at:Company Name: The Taboo PriestessEmail: anoelle623@yahoo.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/aina.betheoInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/thetaboopriestess/If you enjoy the show, please share with your connections, and leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform. If you want to connect with Amber to be a guest on the show or for any other reason reach out at info@amberhowardinc.com!

In this episode, Nigerian Sports Physiotherapy Association Founding Member, Ummukulthoum Bakare, talks about her important research and advocacy of sports physiotherapy. Today, Ummukulthoum talks about her research on women's football, the issue of compliance and adherence, and the next steps in her research. What are the challenges for women football players, and how are they mitigated? Hear about her experience advocating for sports physiotherapy, her presentation on The Unbreakable Young World Athlete, and get her advice to her younger self, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “Passion will drive you.” “The increase in projections of the numbers of registered football players has skyrocketed by the participation of women in football.” “Coaches need to understand that they can be empowered to take charge.” “You don't have to think of injury prevention as this thing that is separate. It needs to be integrated.” “Nothing is impossible. If you can dream it, you can do it.” “The sky isn't the limit anymore.”   More about Ummukulthoum Bakare Ummukulthoum Bakare is a Doctorate Candidate in Sports Physical Therapy at the University of Witwatersrand in South Africa. Her research is focused on women's football and injury prevention. She is a founding member of the Nigerian Sports Physiotherapy Association and is active in disseminating the FIFA11+ injury prevention programme in her native country and across Africa. Her passion has centred around the sports of football, basketball, and para-athletes and injury prevention. She received her Bachelor of Physical Therapy and her Master of Physical Therapy from the College of Medicine, University of Ibadan, Nigeria. Ummukulthoum has worked as a physical therapist since 2001 and has won several awards for her service locally, regionally, and internationally. She is a member of the Medical and Scientific Commission of the Nigeria Olympic Committee and an Associate Editor for the British Journal of Sports Medicine.   Suggested Keywords Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Healthcare, Physiotherapy, Sports, Research, Injury Prevention, Women's Football, Empowerment, Advocacy,   Third World Congress of Sports Physical Therapy   To learn more, follow Ummukulthoum at: Website:          https://www.facebook.com/nspa.org.ng/ Twitter:            @koolboulevard Instagram:       @koolboulevard   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here:  00:07 Welcome to the healthy, wealthy and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information you need to live your best life healthy, wealthy and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now, here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy.   00:35 Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. I am your host Karen Litzy. And in today's episode, I'm really honored to welcome UMO cooltone Bukhari she has a doctorate candidate in Sports Physical Therapy at the University of Witwatersrand in African South Africa. Her research is focused on women's football and injury prevention. She is a founding member of the Nigerian sports physiotherapy Association, and is active in disseminating the FIFA 11 Plus injury prevention program in her native country and across Africa. Her passion has centered around the sports of football, basketball and para athletes and injury prevention. She received her Bachelor of physical therapy and her Master of physical therapy from the College of Medicine University of Ibadan in Nigeria UMO kooltherm has worked as a physical therapist since 2001, and has won several awards for her service locally, regionally and internationally. She is a member of the medical and scientific commission of the Nigeria Olympic Committee, and an associate editor for the British Journal of Sports Medicine. So in this episode, we give you all a sneak peek of what she is going to be speaking on as one of the guest speakers at the fourth World Congress of Sports Physical Therapy, which is taking place August 26, to the 22nd 2022 and Nyborg Denmark. If you want more information on the WC SPT conference, head over to podcast at healthy wealthy smart.com. Click on the link in the show notes under this episode. If you can, I highly suggest signing up and joining us in August in Denmark. So Lumo coutume is just one of many speakers that we're going to be highlighting over the next couple of months. We have a great conversation today about the unbreakable Young World athlete which she will be speaking about Nyberg. So everyone enjoyed today's episode and be on the lookout for more speakers coming up in the next couple of months. Hey, Katie, welcome to the podcast. I'm really happy to have you on.   02:43 It's lovely to be here, Karen. Thanks for having me. Yes. And like I said in the intro, gosh, you are a real rock star in the physiotherapy world. So you are a founding member of the Nigerian sports physiotherapy Association. You are a member of the medical and scientific commission of the Nigerian Olympic Committee and an assistant editor for the British Journal of Sports Medicine. And so that leads me to my first question is How important do you feel these associations are for the profession?   03:20 Thank you, Karen. It's is really very important, especially from my side of the   03:27 of the continent where we have very limited resources. And it's always a good opportunity to connect with other colleagues from around the world. When we first started the the Nigerian sports physiotherapy Association, were just a handful of people who, you know, came together to say, look, if we did start an association like this, it would help us be able to connect with other colleagues and associated other associations from around the world. And then we connected with IFSP T, which also given us a lot of opportunity to connect with the rest of the sports PT world globally. And that has kind of enriched us over the years. And I'm happy to say that Nigeria was also the first African country to be affiliated with IFSP T. And we still have a great relationship till today. And I'm also actually, I think, the first African and the IFSP T board. The executive board. I was elected in 2019 in the last Congress in Canada, for the Nigeria Olympic Committee. That took a lot of work because it's actually by appointment. And over time, it had only just been physicians. There hasn't been any room for physios to get on board, but I think for somehow I just kept well with the National Society. I'd be the Nigel site of physiotherapy, I just kept pushing to get on visit   05:00 ability for physios get us to get, I mean, get the Olympic Committee to also organize specialized training for physios and all of that, and I was doing all this work, making sure that where they were conferences happening, I wanted them to, you know, support people to attend and all that, and a former vice president of the Olympic Committee, and as I look, I think you'll bring your loved one on board. And I'd like to nominate you to be on the on the medical commission. And I was like, Okay. And   05:34 when I got in, I was the only female and I was the only physio. But I am glad that we time a lot of things have changed. Because one of the key things I'm passionate about is to give room to allow upcoming and early career sports medicine stakeholders, be it physio psychologists, you know, doctors, physicians, but give room for the younger ones to be supported and, you know, have access to all the IOC courses and things like that. So I it's been, it's not been an easy journey, but I think you can change a lot more from the inside than the outside. And that's, that's why I took on the assignment. And so far, so good. It's, it's worked out. Yeah, it's slow. But it has worked out a bit. Yeah, amazing. And I was going to my next question was going to be what, what has it been like for you to kind of be the first to have a seat at the table? Right, the first woman which I'm not surprised, and the first physio to kind of have that seat at the table, what has that been like for you? And what lessons have you learned?   06:43 Um, to be honest, it was not a really easy thing to do, especially when you are in the middle of about, you know, 12 other people who, and you probably also are the youngest. Let me add that, even though I don't consider myself young, per se, but in that tool,   07:06 I was the youngest. So but I think luckily, I What sort of helped me was that I spoke with the chairman. And I told him Look, this is   07:18 this is the ideas that I have. And I feel like I know there's a lot of work that needs to go on behind the scenes, I'm happy to do all the heavy lifting, or writing and all that, but we need to push for more things to achieve our mandate. And he was very happy with that. And later, a lot of a lot of the other board members just felt like Okay, it looks like we have somebody who's willing to do all this heavy lifting with you know, writing proposals and stuff. And we just kind of make things work. And somehow they just realized that I wasn't really doing it for any self. For myself, as it were, I was trying to get us to have a better a wider ecosystem for sports medicine resource, be it physios, doctors, you know psychologists, pharmacists, nutritionists and stuff like that. And so far, so good. We've we have quite a sizable number of young, early career people coming on board, a lot more people are not interested in sports, physio and all that. And which is because before now, nobody really wanted to do sports physio, they felt like,   08:26 you know, you're, you're never going to be rich. Like you're always just   08:31 the government is always owing you money. And so why are you a physio per se but then I tell them that look, passion will drive you it is just a calling and you really need to understand that.   08:44 What can in any another prefer in any other specialty or physio? It's quite rewarding as a sports physio as well, if you if you're driven by the right   08:55 circumstances. So yeah, it's not going to be easy, because half the time you'll find yourself like a fish out of water, especially being a female   09:05 where you're working multisport settings and you have to work with male team and all of that you have to hold your own. But it's it is rewarding. And yeah, so yeah. And it sounds to me like some of my students. Yeah, some big lessons. There are one, being willing to put in the work and to opening the door so you can help bring other people in. It's not opening the door for yourself and closing it on everyone behind you. No, no, because there definitely has to be a transitional plan. What is the sustainability of whatever you're doing? Because at the end of the day, your time is going to come and go. So who are the people that you're empowered to continue that journey, the vision and to be able to achieve   09:51 you know, the end goal of making sure that there is that continuity, and that you have, you know, so they pay forward and they can   10:00 didn't pay forward until, you know, for as long as as needed. And we would have a big pool of sports physios because I can tell you that Nigeria is over 200 million people, and maybe about 10 million active Lee involved in sports at a competitive level. And we still don't have enough physios to cater for that number.   10:27 So there's still a lot of work to be done. I can't do it alone. It's a collective team effort. Yeah, I mean, you have to increase the capacity. Exactly. Right. So that that all of these 10 million people, which is a huge number of people cannot be seen by estimating. It could be more, right. Definitely. Yeah. So obviously, you don't have the capacity for all of that. So if you can open that door and bring in a lot of like enthusiastic, like you said, physios, physicians, psychologists, nutritionists to help you continue to build up the capacity of a sports medicine program across the country, you'll be able to reach more people. Exactly. And that's what it's all about. And now, let's talk about your research. So you've got this passion of building up the capacity for sports medicine in Nigeria, let's talk about your research, which I know you're also passionate about. So I'll hand it over to you.   11:31 Okay, so I'm currently working in women's football. I mean, it is what it is because women really don't get much attention for anything, even in football, and for research specifically, as well. But as we all know that the   11:49 increase in projections of the numbers of registered football players has skyrocketed by the participation of women in football. And we know that for women's for women, we are more or less we have certain   12:08 certain factors, that puts us at higher risk of injuries. We know football has burden of you know, contact injuries and all that but can reduce the injury rates of non contact injuries. Now, because women I hire, that when population were what areas due to biomechanical factors, biological factors as a result of hormones and stuff, biological become biomechanical because of, you know, pelvic hip ratio, you know, being at higher risk of ACLs. So you want to be able to minimize that risk. And how to do that is to actively engage in injury prevention. So trying to bridge the gaps, especially in a low resource setting where we don't really have much human resources, infrastructure and all of that, and people still want to play football. So my research is trying to bridge the gap with the population of women playing football, and the use of an evidence based, comprehensive warmup program, which is the FIFA 11. Plus, it is a basic injury prevention program, but it works. But it's not going to work if people don't know about it and compliant with using it. So it's trying to find out what are the challenges in the setting? And how can we mitigate these challenges to be able to improve compliance and adherence, and be able to achieve injury prevention goals, because even on a global scale, compliance, and adherence is a big issue with anything. So, um, since we also know that we have to always tailor things to the broader ecological context, or whatever we're doing. It's not one size fits all, because you have to figure out what are the things that can work in this setting? How can we adapt that can we adjust certain things and whose responsibility is going to take the leadership of the injury prevention philosophy, how this behavioral change is gonna affecting? So this is this is a research that I was working on, or I'm concluding at the moment. And I'm really excited because now I think FIFA also is doing trying to do a lot of stuff for women's football. So hopefully, that can help. You know, in the next five years, we'll see women's football going to a different level than we are right now. Yeah. And you know, as you're talking about that and talking about the resources or lack thereof, it really makes me think I'm in New York City. I'm in the United States where we have an abundance of resources, and people still don't comply with injury prevention programs, right. And so I can't imagine being in   15:00 In a part of the world where you don't have the the manpower, the end all of the things that we have here, yeah, yeah, in order to make these programs stick.   15:13 Exactly. So this is one of the things that I found out is, along the course of my research, is that coaches need to understand that they can be empowered to take charge, rather than coach to see me as a medical person, like trying to take over their job, I'm not trying to take over your job, I'm only trying to help the team so that he can have more players available for selection and team can do better because at the end of the day, it's inversely proportional, the less injuries in the team, the more the team, you know, can can can progress and be successful. So at the end of the day, I think the messaging also matters, the messaging about, Okay, Coach, if you do this, you're going to have more players available for selection. And when you do have more players available for selection, then your team has a better potential to fight for the title to get to win a trophy. And when that happens, you get a bonus or something in your pocket. And it all everybody sort of it's a win win situation when your players do or injury free. They have longer carrier carrier longevity and so many other things. So the reason begins to change, you know, begins to change and at the end of the day. And then another thing I say to them that look, you don't have to think of injury prevention as this thing that is separate. It needs to be integrated. And there is no flexibility to adapt   16:45 and just integrate, it will still work. The most important thing is that you are committing at least twice a week for these exercises to be done. And you will see the difference that it brings to your team. Yeah, it's all about incentives. Right? How can you how can you meet the people where they're at with the incentives they need? And like you said, it's all about the messaging? Yes. Okay, wait, mindset changes, right. And that kind of takes us into I think what you're going to be speaking about at the fourth World Congress is sports physiotherapy, which takes place August 26 and 27th of this year in Nyborg, Denmark, and that is the unbreakable Young World athlete. So talk to us a little bit about that, and a little bit about your presentation. We don't give it all away, of course, you know, we want people to come and see you live, so we're not giving it all away.   17:46 We can dangle some highlights out there.   17:50 Okay, so the first thing is, I think that right now, everybody knows the potential of sports. So   17:58 everybody wants to start young. Now the pressure there on the young athlete is to begin to perform at a professional level at a young age. And that impacts a lot of things in terms of because you know, the type of dedication that you need to, to perfect, whatever sport that you're doing. And, you know, many parents and guidance, everybody wants, oh, I want my child to be Cristiano Ronaldo, I want my child to be messy. Now the pressure is much on these kids. And one of the biggest challenges that then these the burden of having to deal with that kind of pressure, whether physically, psychologically, and every other thing that makes up these young athletes would really be a huge load for young athletes out there. How can we balance that? Now, I will be talking from the perspective of law resource where I'm coming from a lot of many people.   18:57 In the developed countries, they have a lot of support for young athletes. And be it nutrition wise psychology, and so many other things that you we don't have the luxury of that. And many times, the kids who just want to play like they don't want to do anything serious or anything like that. But there's still the pressure and demand on them to excel. Because people see that if you if you're a good sports person, or you're able to make a break in either football or basketball, which is one of the top spots in Nigeria, then we can change our economic situation. And that helps us out of poverty, and all this kind of and all this type of thing. So I'm just going to be talking from that perspective of low resource and how the young athletes   19:50 as much as you want to encourage sports participation, but there has to be that striking balance to enable them to succeed   20:00 That's a lot of pressure on a young kid.   20:03 Yes, yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I know I'm definitely looking forward to that talk in Nyborg. Is there anything else that you're working on projects moving forward? Anything you're looking forward to in the future, whether it's future research, speaking gigs, getting more involved in in the profession as a whole? What do you have coming up?   20:30 Okay, so I'm trying, I'm rounding up my doctorate right now. So hopefully, I can get a postdoc position as well to continue to work in women's football.   20:44 That is what I'm hoping for the next maybe six months there about, but other projects that I'm passionate about involves power athletes, I'm very, very passionate about walking with our athletes, because also they too, were like a minority   21:01 group. But I see that they are really the super humans, you know, with everything. And with the limited resources and everything you can think of the still strive very hard I want to get on on the world stage. They are the ones who put Nigeria on the on the on the map for medals, because I was with the team in 2016, in Rio, and   21:27 we won eight gold medals, set new eight world records.   21:33 So I feel like yeah, there's a lot more that I want to learn. And   21:39 I'm also trying to do some technical courses. And   21:44 there's something called classification for power athletes, where it's like, you're trying to make sure that all the athletes are classed,   21:53 in in the desired classes that they can compete on a level playing ground. So apart from the technical officials, they also need the medical people to come and do all the assessments of you know, movement, muscle power, and all these things, just to be sure that, okay, we have classes athletes properly, and they can compete without having undue advantage over the other colleagues in a similar category. So yeah, so I think that's really the next thing that I want to do. It sounds amazing.   22:27 Some of my students trying to move on to postgrads. I've just provide them some of my own shares, some run experience, support them along the way as well. And so that's, that's what I think I'll do. Amazing. Well, it sounds like you have a busy time coming up and doing really, really great work. So congratulations on all of that. And now where can people find you? If they want to reach out to you? They have questions. They have thoughts, where can they find you?   22:56 Okay, so you couldn't find me on social media? You'll see on Twitter, it's at cool Boulevard.   23:04 And it's also the same handle on Instagram at cool Boulevard. So and that's cool with a K, correct? Yes. K with the K Yeah, yeah. And we'll have all of that information and links directly to all of your social media in the show notes for this podcast, so people won't have to search too far. And now as we wrap things up, one last question that I asked everyone, it's knowing where you are now in your life and career, what advice would you give to your younger self?   23:35 Um, nothing is impossible. If you dream it, you can do it. So just surround surround yourself with people who will always find your flames. People will always ginger you to keep going. And I think, you know, the sky isn't the limit anymore.   23:55 You can keep going so that I'll give to my younger self. Excellent advice. And just if people want to see Katie speak in person, like I said a little bit earlier, she will be speaking at the fourth World Congress is sports, physical therapy, August 26, to the 27th of this year, 2022 and Nyborg, Denmark. So again, we'll have a link for that as well. So you can go on and take a look at the whole program and sign up and come to Denmark in the summer, which I'm assuming is going to be great. I've never I've only been there in February when it's pretty chilly and snowy and rainy. So I'm excited for I'm excited to go. And I'm excited to listen. I have never been to Denmark. This will be my first time. So yes, I am looking forward to meeting you. And the rest of the delegates from around the world. Yeah, it's gonna be great. So Katie, thank you so much for taking the time out and coming on today and talking about all the great work you're doing. We are all inspired. So thank you so much. Thank you for having me.   25:00 and looking forward to see you soon. Yeah and everyone thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.   25:08 Thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy, wealthy smart.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media  

Hot town. Summer in the city.  Back of Giannis' neck getting dirty and gritty - yes folks, it's that time again. To watch a film both Sean and Giannis love. And that film is Die Hard With A Vengeance. Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/fkyouropinionpodcast)

Episode 73   Welcome back to our program! We sure missed you and wanted to offer an apology for missing our recording last week. You can expect plenty of foolishness and stupidity this episode as we discuss the slap hear 'round the world, legalization of recreational marijuana in New Mexico and plenty of other tangents. We hope you enjoy and like always much love!

Bu bölümde İlişki Mantarı ve Sean Paul Y kuşağının sorunlarını tartışıyorlar. Bunun yanı sıra depresyon ve bağımlılık tedavisinde psikadelik madde kullanımı trendi hakkında konuşuyorlar. İlişki problemlerinizin bir çift ve aile terapisti tarafından yorumlanmasını isterseniz bize adanaswingerklub@gmail.com adresinden ya da instagramda @adanaklub adresinden ulaşabilirsiniz.

Ro is joined by sir 'salty' himself, the Salty Nerd to talk about everyone's favorite pre-historic creatures, dinosaurs. Why are they so cool, what do they represent in the grand scheme of things, the future of DNA work in the scientific community and more! Everyone's earliest memories seem to have dinosaurs on their bingo card. We talk about our very vivid memories and Salty shares a very personal story. Plus, we got a special Jurassic Park edition of #SentryMode. Because of the excited nature of the topic, (who doesn't absolutely LOVE dinos?) This contains adult language, so listener discretion is advised. As always, we are a proud founding member of the Red5Network.

00:00: Swearing and slacking off is good for you 02:51: NCIS Sydney 05:47: Lehmo 10:38: What was your school detention? 18:22: Who took your breath away? 25:11: The phone of the dead 26:30: What a week - Matt's week See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The dino boiz are back for a glorious celebration of my 420th episode. Join us for a conversation full of awkward questions, fun stories and good times! Cowabunga. Also available on Spotify, Apple, YouTube or wherever else you listen to podcasts probably. Just search for 'Start The Beat Podcast'. You can also listen to more of my podcasts here: https://www.briansikeshowe.com/startthebeat

We break down our first impressions of the three-part "Get Back" epic (spoiler: we loved it). Plus, remembering George 20 years on, and a little obsessing over replica Beatle clothing and the latest Brian Epstein statue news. ------------------- +Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter for photos, videos, and more from this episode & past episodes — we're @bcthebeatles everywhere. +Subscribe to BC the Beatles on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. +Buy us a coffee! Support the show with a one-time donation at www.ko-fi.com/bcthebeatles +Contact us at bcthebeatles@gmail.com +Sponsor offer: Digitize your photos, videos, and other hard copy memories at www.Pictures2digital.com. Use code BEATLES15 at checkout for 15 percent off any order. 

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: My sister just finished reading the Grisha trilogy. And she was, of course, more of a fan of the Six of Crows after reading that. But one of the things she messaged me- she was like “yeah, the ending was kind of whatever, but it is very clear that this person was reading Harry Potter when they wrote this.” R: [laughs] K: And I said “Yeah, that definitely comes through.” She gave me this whole list of like, book two is basically just The Order of the Phoenix, and the end battle with all of the Grisha and the stand downs, all this stuff, and I was like “Yeah, I guess you're right.” To be honest with you, I kinda limped through the end of that book, I wasn't thinking about that too much. But anyways, it got me thinking about influences in writing and how writers are influenced and how in some cases that's something that we're like “Yes! You can tell that this writer was influenced by such-and-such, and they weave it so beautifully into their story.” And sometimes you get my sister calling me to complain about how she basically just read Harry Potter with Russian witches.  R: So was your sister accusing the author in any way of plagiarism? K [overlapping]: Not plagiarism. R [overlapping]: As a reader I'm curious, like how the reader perceives it when it's that clear when someone's been influenced.  K: I should've asked her before we started recording this - and this is something we'll get to in there - I couldn't tell if my sister was accusing the author of laziness or unoriginality.  R: Okay. K: That's one of the things I wanted to talk about today as we're talking about influence. What is influence, how are writers influenced? How's the best way to leverage and utilize that influence? And when does influence cross into the realm of the negative? When is it no longer praise worthy? When is it, for instance, lazy, contrived, unoriginal, or, in worst case scenario, bordering into plagiarism?  R: Yeah, because that's a tricky thing - if we always wrote a completely original story, you wouldn't have something like Joseph Campbell's The Hero's Journey. Because we wouldn't have a set format that a story would take. So when somebody accuses a fantasy book of being “Star Wars with elves,” well, Star Wars was a Greek epic in space.  K: Oh, I would've called it a Western. R: Okay fine. [overlapping] I mean, people have called it a Western. K: [overlapping] I mean, both work. Both work. [laughs] R: Yeah, but I'm just saying, The Hero's Journey, Joseph Campbell is, he's studying the ancient literature, so that's why I decided to say Greek. But if we could always write something that was completely original, there would be no way to study literature with comparisons and contrasts. There are always going to be parallels between stories written in a similar culture by people who are writing in a similar society. Like, a hundred years apart, you would not necessarily detect the influence of Harry Potter in the Grishaverse. But they're not written a hundred years apart - it was maybe a decade, probably not. K: I'd be curious to go back and try to time out when these books were being written, and when that coincides with the release of the latter half of the Harry Potter books. But anyways, real quick, I'm big into definitions, so let's talk about definitions. Influence is the capacity of something - a person, a situation, a circumstance - to have an effect on another person, on the development of the situation, on the behavior of someone or something. Or, in some cases, even the effect itself. You'll notice there that influence is kind of framed as both proactive and reactive. You can influence something, or you can be influenced. We're talking today about being influenced.  R: And we're not talking about Instagram.  K: [laughs] Oh, God. You know what's funny? I went through this whole thing and I didn't even think about the concept of influencers, and now I'm depressed. R: Because you didn't or because now you are? K: [laughs] Because now I am. R: Okay. I'm sorry. I take it back, I didn't say anything.  K: [laughs] So, writers don't write in a void. It's sort of a reverse Heisenberg principle, which is “whatever you study will also change.” Whatever you read changes you, or whatever you consume changes you. So, writers don't write in a void. If you took a baby and raised them in a box with no interaction with the outside world whatsoever, well, to be honest I'm not sure they'd be capable of putting together an interesting story because they've had no influence.  R: You know what's funny, that's why I don't have kids. Because I thought about this kind of thing frequently in high school, like “what would happen if you raised a child in a padded room? And you never interacted with them, and they never saw another human?” So you're welcome, world, that I have not raised any children. Those children are welcome because I did not abuse them in such a manner.  K: [laughs]  R: But it's good to hear that someone else has had these thoughts. Although, Kaelyn and I did originally bond over the fact that we're terrified of the idea of raising children.  K: Pregnancy is just - R: And pregnancy. It's not for everybody. I recognize that for some people it's a beautiful process, but for Kaelyn and for me, it is body horror.  K: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's an entire nother skeleton in your skeleton. [laughs] R: Yes. And it's growing. [overlapping] It's getting larger.  K [overlapping]: It keeps getting bigger. R: And if you've never seen an MRI of a baby's skull, there's a lot of teeth in there.  K: Yeah, also they're squishy. R: Well, the MRI doesn't necessarily show that. It just shows all those chompers, waiting. Waiting.  K: Yeah. There's a lot of extra teeth in there.  R: Okay. [laughs] Where were we going? K [overlapping]: So for our writing- R [overlapping]: A child raised in a padded cell would probably write a different kind of story than somebody who's been exposed to Harry Potter.  K: Yeah, and if you take out every third word, it's their plan to destroy the world with their laser beams.  R: This reminds me of the book The Artist's Way. I think it's a month-long program designed to improve your creativity and I think maybe even to come up with… it's like NaNoWriMo but it's very classist and elitist.  K: [laughs] R: But the first thing it asks you to do is swear off all media for the month. K: Okay. R: And I put the book down right there. K: [laughs] R: Because I was like, that is literally impossible. I was in art school at the time, so I could not promise that I wasn't going to have to look at media. And also, this was written in 1992, before anybody was logging onto the internet daily.  K: Yeah, it was much easier to walk away from media for a month.  R: And I was trying to read it, I think, in 1999 or 2000, and it was even easier, at that point, to walk away from media than it would be now.  K: Yep. R: But, yes, it's called The Artist's Way: A Spiritual Path to Higher Creativity by Julia Cameron. And I imagine that Julia Cameron has a very nice life and is able to unplug from media whenever it is convenient for her to do so. K: Well, in 1992 that meant “turn off the TV.” R: Right, it meant “don't pick up a newspaper” or, you know. K: Yeah. R: In 2016 they re-released a 25th anniversary edition, and I can't imagine they did much to it, but it really probably needed a lot of re-examining to - K: Yeah. It's -  R: - to even be relevant in 2016, I can't even imagine.  K: Now, was the purpose of this to do a detox of influence from your life? R: Yes. That is exactly what it was, to avoid influence for the month and find out what you write, not what the world around you influences you to write. But I think in her case, she was treating world influence and media and current events as a negative.  K: Mhm. R: And I would argue that if you are responding to the world around you, then the politics of your creativity is going to be more relevant and more well-informed. And I think that's a good thing.  K: Well, yeah. And this is something that we can certainly talk about with influence - current influence versus longevity. You'll see a lot of writers that go out of their way to not incorporate things that might later be considered an anachronism in their writing, so that they're not influenced by that.  R: Mhm. K: So that's another good example of influence. So, let's get the elephant in the room out of the way here: influence is not copying. As we were talking about, writers don't write in a void. You're absorbing everything that you interact with and consume every day, and, whether you know it or not, it's influencing and incorporating itself into even your way of thought.  R: You hear that? So if you were following an Instagram influencer, do not copy everything they do.  K: [laughs] Yes. Please don't. But, again, it's the reverse Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Whatever you're consuming changes you. There are entire PhD programs dedicated to studying and understanding the influence that certain parts of literature have had on larger parts of literature. Influence is not a bad thing. In many ways, it's a scholarly pursuit. Go to any Wikipedia page for any sort of well-known novel, and I guarantee you there's going to be a section in there that says “Influence.”  R: Oh yeah, yeah. K: And it's going to be a couple paragraphs talking about the history of the genre, or the subject material leading up to this. Influence is, apart from being an important part of writing, an academic pursuit. So all of that said, we are talking about influence in a very positive way here. We're saying it's great to read things, and to consume and internalize them so that this can help enrich your writing. Something that you really enjoyed, something you thought was maybe unique, or something that you were like, “Oh, what if I applied that to a character that I already have?” That's a good thing. I think it enriches your writing, I think it shows layers and growth, etcetera. K: That said, sometimes influence goes the opposite way. [laughs] Sometimes you've read something and you're like, “this is terrible,” or “this was such a ridiculous ending,” or “I hated that this happened.” And that might compel you to go through your manuscript and scrub absolutely everything having to do with that. The whole point is that whether you mean to or not, you are going to be influenced by external components in your writing. You could never read anything else, and you will still be influenced by things in the world just by existing in it. But we are talking more about influences in writing here, so we'll stick with that.  R: And we assume that you are being influenced by books because, as we say, if you want to be a writer you need to also be a reader. So we're telling you, go read widely in your genre, and part of that is that we expect you to absorb some of those elements and some of those styles. On a conscious level, we want you to look at the covers, we want you to look at the themes and the tropes and everything like that, but we also expect that on a subconscious level that's going to influence you and hopefully make you a better writer within your genre. K: And if you read a lot within your genre, you will start to notice trails of influence yourself. If you read a lot of - especially maybe a really niche kind of fantasy or science fiction genre, you're going to be able to chronologically put some things in order, like “Oh yes, I can see that book A came out at this time, and then three years later this book came out, and there are certainly elements from book A that I can see coming through in book B even though they were written by different authors.” K: So, I was telling Rekka before we started recording–I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole with this, because for reasons unbeknownst to me and possibly the influence of vampiric elements, I, for whatever reason, picked up my copy of Dracula off the shelf and I've just been flipping through random parts. And then we were talking about doing this, and I was like, vampires are a really really good example of influence through literature. They're something that has always been around - the Mayans actually had a god that was basically a vampire, even though they didn't acknowledge that, bat wings and all. And there's something that–I think you'd be hard pressed to find a significant culture of any sort of longevity from history that didn't have some sort of mythological being that displayed vampire-like qualities. K: In the late 1700s, early 1800s, though, there was the vampire craze in western Europe. There were a lot of short stories and things written about vampires, even though they've been codified as part of the mythos for a long time. But even then, they were sort of holding up the folklore and traditions of vampires–they were reanimated corpses, they were bloodsuckers that came out at night to drain people of their very lifeforce. In some cases, actively rotting bodies, hunched back and demonic looking, claw-fingered and fangs and scary eyes. A lot of this was the traditional folklore. Then we start getting into sexy vampires. [laughs] R: [laughs] I was just going to say. K: [laughs] And there were a couple specific novels that did this. In 1819, John Polidori published a short story called The Vampyre, and this was the first one where the vampire was more of a character rather than just a mindless bloodsucking dead creature. R: Right. This was a vampire worthy of Bela Lugosi's eyes.  K: Oh, no one's worthy of Bela Lugosi's eyes. [laughs] R: You know what I'm saying. K: I know, I'm teasing. So, it was very popular. So then, a lot of vampire short stories and short novels were coming out where the vampires were getting a little more sophisticated, and all of these were drawing influence from Polidori's short story. It was a very successful short story. So then, in 1872, an Irish author named Joseph Sheridan [with a mock-French accent] Le Fanu - I'm assuming it's French which is why I did that accent - published Carmilla, which was a fantastic novel. And this is, I would say, probably a turning point where vampires are unabashedly being associated with a sexual element at this point. It has a not-very-subtle vampiric lesbian... stalking, I guess, going on through this book. It's fantastic, it's not that long. If you ever get a chance to read it, it's great. K: And then of course, a couple decades later in 1897, we come to Bram Stoker's Dracula. I should, by the way, say that Bram Stoker and Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu were both Irish. Ireland had a shockingly strong folklore of vampires. In some cases they were fae, which is a whole different category of supernatural elements in Ireland, and in some cases they were just reanimated corpses. Anyways, then we get Bram Stoker, who of course gives us Dracula. And this is considered the preeminent vampire guideline bible, if you will. I think when most of us - granted, Rekka and I are older millennials, but - R: [laughs] How dare you? K: I think the first vampire we heard of was Dracula.  R: Mhm. K: I actually remember, growing up, that there was a kid in my neighborhood who just thought vampires were called Draculas.  R: Yeah. I think that was probably a… Not that I thought Dracula was a noun, but I never expected Dracula to look the same way twice.  K: Yeah. Yeah, Dracula was just like - Dracula, vampire. They were interchangeable.  R: Mhm. K: And that's how synonymous this became. Now, look at all the stuff that lead up to this in order for us to get the seminal vampire novel of the time. Stoker was absolutely influenced by all these novels that came before. Something else that's really interesting that Stoker was influenced by is the sexual component of vampires in this. Like I said, that came through hard and strong. Well, maybe I should say most popularly with Carmilla. Here's something else really interesting about Stoker: he was probably gay. It's difficult and inappropriate to go back and retroactively categorize people these ways, but there's a lot of very strong… I'm trying not to say “homoerotic,” I'm trying to say… There's a lot of very - R: Queerotic? [laughs] K: Yeah, there's a- R: There's not a queer person in the universe that will argue this point with you.  K: Yeah. R: I think the LGBTQIA+ are very, very ready to claim vampirism.  K: [laughs] Absolutely. And that's a great part of the influence of this. Some of Stoker's best friends were Oscar Wilde and Walt Whitman. Actually, I believe Stoker either started writing or finished writing Dracula right after Oscar Wilde was imprisoned, and they were exchanging letters while he was in prison.  R: Mhm. K: You have to keep in mind, this was the mid-Victorian period, there's very repressed sexuality, but there was also this burgeoning underground masculine sexual component to it, where everyone - R: See people, this is what happens when you don't let people reveal their ankles.  K: Yes. Yes, exactly. [laughs] So, one of the things through Dracula is this secretiveness, this sense of penetration. Not only the fangs in your throat, but a lot of them get into your head and screw with you that way. This was not something we saw in previous iterations of vampires, who were gross, for lack of a better term. [laughs] R: [laughs] Yeah.  K: So, this influence comes through in a lot of different ways. And as I'm talking more about Dracula I can say like, “Okay, well there's a lot of very… what we would now consider queer sexual elements that we see in Dracula, coming through with the relationship between Dracula and Johnathan Harker and Dracula and Mina.” But there's also the influence of other writers who were starting to make vampires actually people, rather than Nosferatu-style monsters.  R: Right. K: Dracula, I would argue, then in turn really helped influence the next generation of common horror. At that point we're getting into H.P. Lovecraft and existential horror. Lovecraft, who, by the way, wasn't quite a contemporary of Stoker's, but was very aware and actually wrote some reviews of his writing. He didn't really like a lot of it. [laughs] I would argue that that was probably part of what influenced Lovecraft: it was a hard turn from these very sterile, white-marble, gothic horror novels to a lot of raw, and ocean, and dark mold, steam spaces.  R: You can literally write the sentence “I can't describe this.” and people are like “Woo, that is scary.” K: Yeah exactly. So much of Lovecraft is like, “it's too horrible to describe!” but it's like “Yeah, but can you tell me anyway?” [laughs] R: You mentioned earlier that an influence can be “I don't want to do this.” K: Yes. R: So, here we are. This is Lovecraft saying  “Well, Stoker wasn't racist enough for me, so I'm gonna write my own thing.” K: [laughs] Oh, God, Lovecraft. It's so hard to read some of that stuff. [sighs] Psychologists would be better at trying to figure out Lovecraft's influence than me, I'm certainly not going to. To say the man had issues is an understatement. He was more of a collection of neuroses formed into a human. Anyways, this is just something I was thinking of as a pretty-easy-to-track set of influences. We go from vampires being very loosely defined and having inconsistent characteristics based on what region the stories are being told in, to some stories published that codify certain rules about them, to their evolution from “Eww, it's a rotting, blood-drinking corpse” to “Huh, maybe I'd like date that person.” R: [laughs] Maybe I would like those lips on my bare neck! K: Yes, exactly. Which is a pretty interesting leap that really did not take that long to get from point A to point B. But all of this was just building on influence and influence, after that.  R: Yeah, all you needed was for one author to pick it up and go, “What if vampires, but sexy?” K: [laughs] Yeah. You know what's funny, we have this sort of modern-day depiction of Dracula as a very suave, debonair… what's the word I'm looking for? High-society type person.  R: Sophisticated.  K: Sophisticated, yeah. In the novel, he is those things a little bit, but he is very off-putting and he is... weird to look at, I guess I should say. R: Yeah, there's that first scene where Johnathan is eating in front of him, and you definitely get a vibe that this dude is not right.  K: Like, he's talking about his hairy ears. [laughs] R: [laughs] Yeah. K: His weird skin, he looks ill, as if when he's making his way to the castle all of the peasantry crying and pressing crucifixes into his hands wasn't red-flag enough for him. R: No, no, no. It's just a quaint little village, this is the thing they do. There is the aspect of vampirism having the power of glamour, and I think this is probably the most effective display of it. The way that he's describing Dracula, there's nothing attractive about this man, and yet. K: He's very drawn to him. R: Mhm. K: And he wants to help him. R: As is Mina. [laughs] K: And Lucy, and all of them. So yeah, vampires. Great example of influence in literature over the course of a relatively short time, shaping something that we now consider to be commonplace.  R: Mhm. K: We've even narrowed it down farther. One of my favorite things about Dracula is, there's nothing that necessarily says he can't go in the sun in that book.  R: Right, right. [laughs] K: It's just that he has no powers after noon, I think, or he loses his powers at sunrise. So he can be outside, but he's just a regular guy at that point.  R: Mhm. K: So, obviously things continued to change and evolve there, the “no going out during the day” is held over from the much older vampire myths. Anyways. So, all of that said, how do we see influences in writing? When can we pick these out? One of the obvious is the story itself, the plot. Maybe some story arcs. R: I would argue that people tend to pick it up faster when it's a similar setting. When it's the worldbuilding, I think people notice it more. K: Okay. R: And I think, again, plot arcs and character arcs are things that we do have to recycle.  K: Absolutely. I think it's rare these days to see completely original, never-before-imagined setting. In terms of world-building, both the world itself, and in my notes here I put “world systems.” Anything from the way magic functions, or government functions, or society functions. There's only so many ways you can organize people, essentially. [laughs] So there may have been something that you came across and you're like “Oh, that's interesting. What if I did this instead?” The characters- anything from the archetypes and tropes of characters to their storylines and their redemption arcs, or even just the relationships, how they interact with each other. How the characters are broken out either into family groups or groups of friends or hierarchies within that. I think we see that a lot. With plot, we can kind of go back to what I said at the beginning of the episode: sometimes there are things in there where it's like, “this is clearly Order of the Phoenix.”  R: Mhm.  K: [laughs] We're just seeing it presented a different way. R: And again, an agent loves this, because you can say “this is my list of story comps.” And if they're successful books, the agent can use that to sell the story and then the publisher can use it to sell the book. K: Mhm. R: So even though sometimes it sounds like we are poo-pooing derivative work, if it comes across as fresh, nobody's going to poo-poo that you have a great list of comps to start with.  K: Definitely, yeah. R: And I would like to note that that is the first time we have said “poo-poo” on this podcast. I feel like that should be marked. K: That definitely needs to be denoted for posterity. R: And now it's been said three times. K: [laughs] Then there's two other areas of influence I'd like to talk about that are a little harder to quantify. One is style. And this comes more to writing style, and how you're presenting your story. For instance, being influenced by the way the author just writes in general, their style, I will harken back to one of our favorite examples here. If you've read Gideon the Ninth it is a very very unique writing style, not something I've ever come across before and I'm sure there are a lot of people who are currently in the process of attempting to imitate it; I don't know how successful they're going to be, but I bet they're trying. R: And then there are others who are influenced by it to say “Oh, I can let loose like that?” K: Yeah. Exactly. Or, “I can try something completely different that I didn't think anybody would be interested in, but if they're willing to do this then maybe they would.” Point of view or viewpoint in the book - if you've read the second book in the Locked Tomb series, Harrow the Ninth, a lot of that is written second person. The Broken Earth series, large portions of that are in second person. R: Well, the Broken Earth series, the amazing thing is it's written in all three. K: Yes, yeah. R: So if you haven't read that I can't go any further, I do not wanna spoil that, even though it's been out for years, the culmination of that book is so good that I refuse to ever spoil it. But go read it, if you haven't read it, for sure. It's a big one - K: It's a lot - R: But it is so worth it. I listen to it on audio, and I can recommend that too. K: Yeah. So both of those books have instances of strange, or - R: Disorienting? K: Disorienting's an excellent word. I remember reading Harrow the Ninth and texting Rekka and going like “Is this like this the entire time?” R: And my only response is “Did you get to the soup yet?” K: [laughs] And it was a mentality shift, and once I just was like “Okay, I fixed my brain to a point that it can accept and read this now.” But another style quality is dialogue. How you incorporate and how you use dialogue in your writing is something that I think is very easily influenced by how other people do that. This can also start feeding into the character influence there as well, how the characters talk and interact with each other is very influenced by dialogue. So then the last kind of nebulous part that I'd like to talk about, and this is a little bit different but it is worth bringing up, is historical influence. There are a lot of books and stories that are nominal retellings of either one or a series of historical events. I'll use Game of Thrones here as an example, and spoilers for anybody who hasn't read or watched - R: I don't care if we spoil Game of Thrones. [laughs] K: George R. R. Martin, well first the basis of a lot of this is the War of the Roses, which was the English Civil War. It was also called the Hundred Years' War; it was just a long, bloody, drawn-out battle of constantly changing kings and powerful families trying to get their person on the throne of England. R: And the interesting part is, it is a hundred years, so the people who started this have cast this war upon the generations to follow, and if that doesn't tell you something about where George R. R. Martin is going to be forced to take the end of the books, I don't know what will, because HBO managed to make the show take what, the war take five years or maybe ten years if that? Just the fact that it was ten seasons, right? Was it ten seasons or nine? K: It was eight seasons. R: Okay, so at most, because of the children aging on the show, it was a nine-year hundred-year war. So if George R. R. Martin is following intentionally the framework of the Hundred Years' war, none of the characters that you're rooting for are going to make it. Just in the nature of aging. K [overlapping]: And there's - you can go through and just read a brief history of the Hundred Years' War, and you'll be able to identify characters in there. Like Tyrion has some very clear Richard III vibes to him. But then there's other historical events and groups of people that he took and pulled into this. The Lannisters are such a clear parallel of the Borgia family that it's almost difficult to know that and read this and know what happened to the Borgias. The Red Wedding was based off of a famous event in Scotland where something very very similar happened to that. Some Scottish lords were invited to dinner by a Scottish lord with English leanings, and he killed all of them, to get in good with the English. R: After serving them bread. K: After serving them bread, exactly. But again, historical influence - the concept of guestright is very important in most cultures and especially in Scotland. So there's so many examples of people taking strong influence from either actual historical events or folklore and mythological events, like the Trojan War and things like that, and incorporating it into their writing. There are a lot of writers who decide “I'm gonna do a modern interpretation of such-and-such,” because maybe - for instance the Trojan War, they're very interested in classic Greek mythology and decide “Hey, that's a great story to tell; I'm gonna set it in a different place but still tell the story.” K: So that's some elements of influence, and before we wrap up here, let's address the thing we started to talk a little bit about but should definitely round out. When is influence just becoming copying, at a certain point? This is hard. Because it's really about finesse and originality. It's about taking something that you liked and putting your own spin on it, so to speak. If you're just re-creating the same story and sticking your characters into it, you're going to get called at best lazy, at worst a plagiarist. R: Yeah, there are plenty of books out there - and I have one to include in the list - that are retellings of a classic story. The problem is when you don't approach it as “how do I make this my story?” K: Yes. I'm gonna use young adult genres here because it's a little bit newer and easier to trace through this, and I'm not going to name books in this apart from the first series that I will name because that author is wildly successful. The Mortal Instruments trilogy - you could probably say series at this point, there's so many books in that world at this point - by Cassandra Clare, is one of the early and premiere urban fantasy young adult novels. This was copied so many times. Some of the authors were a little more original with where they were setting it, some of them were a little more original with where they were putting the characters or who the characters were, but the magical teeenagers who are part of a secret society that protects humanity was everywhere. ‘Cause these books were a runaway success. They were very original; no one had really seen something like this before. The Mortal Instruments created so many tropes that I can't and will not try to name them. R: And I think it's, part of that, somebody loves a book that they experienced so much that they want to hold onto that feeling forever, and one way to do that is to create something completely inspired by that same world. And this is where fanfic comes from, and fanfic is healthy, and it's a great way to express feelings of “I don't want to leave this book world.” But when you take it to a publisher and you say “This is going to sell really well because the other one that already did it sold really well,” as they say - don't follow trends in publishing, because you're five years behind. K: Conversely, a lot of people were able to get things like this published because the market wasn't inundated with this yet. R: Right, you had to be among the first to imitate a successful book, which is why they say don't follow the trends, because you won't be among the first. There are so many people out there writing that there are easily 500 people ahead of you in the queue for the publisher slush pile. K: Yeah and I wanna be clear, the first book of this entire - I'm not joking, I think there's over 20 books within this world at this point - the first one came out in 2007. So yes, the Internet was very alive and well at that point; it was not what it is now. Writing communities on the Internet were not what they are now. But all of this is to say that there were people who just straight up copied this genre, this book in some way. Either in terms of setting, in terms of characters, in terms of the magical elements of this, they just straight up copied this and I gotta be honest with you, a lot of them were not terribly successful. [laughs] Some of them were, though, and some of them made some money off of this. R: Well, for other readers who are not writers, when the same thing happens they come out of a book series and they have to wait for the next book, they want more. K: Exactly, they were looking for more. R: This is not unlike when the animation company puts out a very similar cheap animation to the latest Disney release. I worked at Blockbuster, and I saw this all the time. You'd have a big animated Disney release, and you'd have this tiny company out of who-knows-where that put together an animated copy, and they rely on parents and grandparents to grab the wrong one. This is not like trying to give the kids more of what they want, this is like “If we are gonna be next to this Disney movie on the shelf, someone will pick us up by accident and we will make money.” K: Well I always remember because a lot of Disney's classics, like the Disney renaissance movies, they were all like public domain stories. So they would just make that and they could get it out on VHS faster than Disney could - R: Yeah, they were made direct to video. K: Because Disney left it in - like everyone knew what the upcoming Disney movies were. So if you knew there was gonna be Aladdin, well, the story of Aladdin is public domain, you start making Aladdin right away. [Brief interlude of car noises] R: I literally believe that Mike's apartment is built on an overpass. K: No, just next to a road with a lot of people who drive like idiots. R: Well that was like a garbage truck, but anyway. K: That was a motorcycle. R: That was a motorcycle?? It sounded like it had at least 16 wheels. K: Yeah. R: Alright, sorry, so Aladdin - K: So everyone knew what movies Disney was making well in advance, and of course these would take years after they were announced to actually be finished and put in theatres. So if Disney says “we're making Aladdin” - R [overlapping]: Before it's in theatres! K: - well then, another small studio can also make Aladdin. The animation isn't gonna be great but then Aladdin's gonna be in the theatres and then a week later the imitation Aladdin are going to be on shelves, and grandparents are gonna go “Oh my grandchildren want to see -” R: Or “They've been talking about this movie and here it is on VHS,” and they don't know how theatre releases work and so they grab it and buy it, and they spend $18 or $15, seems like a really good deal on a Disney movie, and the animation studio makes their money back. So they do it again. K: So don't be that cheap animation studio. Don't be the person that's taking something that somebody put a lot of time, thought, and creativity into, and churning out the cheap, fast, easy-to-consume version of it. R: Yeah and I don't think, when it comes to writers - I mean I'm sure there are people out there who go “Okay this is the newest thing, I am going to behave like an algorithm and I am going to make another version of it and then release it, and I will make lots of bucks.” There are those writers that–they do that on purpose. So don't be them. But I don't think any of our audience are going to be them. And if you were thinking that that was a great way to make a successful book, let us correct you. But if you are inspired by Gideon the Ninth, or by Mortal Instruments, or anything like that - take the time to develop a story just like you would a completely inspired out of left field story, and take the time to put it together in a considerate and thoughtful and unique way, and then we approve. You get our approval. We're not promising to buy the manuscript, but we are approving a heartfelt influenced work, not an imitation that is intended to ride the wave of success of someone else. K: Exactly. R: Now when we're saying “copying,” are you talking about the publishing houses out there who literally lift the copy and try to sell it on Amazon, and just do it again and again and again as they get caught and cancelled? K: [laughs] No, no. Copying has, I think the way I'm defining it, more to do with not adding any creativity or original elements of your own, just saying “I liked what this person did, I'm going to do it too.” And listen - it's a fine line. One of the things that's really interesting about plagiarism is it's either very obvious - somebody had too many parts in a book, a novel, a poem, that are clearly just from another book - or, you've gotta go through a whole process of proving that somebody had access to something you were working on and directly lifted elements from that and put it into their book. Plagiarism is either very straightforward or very difficult. R: And, with plagiarism, they have plagiarism checkers on the Internet; I think a lot of teachers appreciate that because they can't read everything. So they can run an assignment from a student through a plagiarism checker, and that plagiarism checker can do its best with whatever it has access to in its database to catch - K: Plagiarism checkers are very good now, by the way. R: But we're talking word-for-word plagiarism. Sometimes what we refer to in the publishing world as plagiarism is actually trademark infringement. K: Yes. R: And that is difficult because if you write a story with Harry Potter in it, but you change his name and all the words are your original words, how do we run a plagiarism checker against that? K: Yes. So it's like I said, either very easy or very difficult to prove plagiarism; there's rarely a middle ground there. R: Although there are books that have been caught lifting a paragraph or two, from different books. So like the entire thing is plagiarized, but it's plagiarized from different sources. K: Yeah. You see instances of plagiarism tend to show up more in academic and scientific publishing than in fiction and genre-writing. It definitely does happen, though. R: Yup. Because, again, there are people out there who are confused about what is allowed and what is advisable in writing.  K: There are some really significant seminal works in American literature especially–I'm sure globally but I just happen to know the American ones–that are just plagiarized in certain places. And a lot of them were written in a time where it wasn't as easy to check this, so we- R: Find out much later, when it is easier, how much that was widespread. K: Yup. Exactly. R: There are nefarious people. I was referring, in my last statement, to the innocent, naive new writer, who just does not understand what is and isn't acceptable. Or, they didn't intend for it to go widespread, and they wrote a little thing for fun and end up finding out that they are not welcome and doors are being shut in their face because they crossed the line and it got noticed. K: Yeah, exactly.  R: That's the thing, a little baby writer learning about things the very hard way. It's a shame. That would be someone that you would hope would find a mentor who would guide them in the right direction before that kind of thing gets shot in their face. But with a pen name you can be reborn, as long as you reiterate yourself in better forms than the previous mistakes that you made. K: Yeah, and plagiarism should be very easy to avoid. R: Mhm. K: If you're looking at somebody else's work and saying “I wish this was mine, I'm going to make this mine,” don't do that. You should never be copying text from somebody else. Everything should be written on your own.  R: Yeah, don't go, “How did that person write it? I loved that so much.” Well yes, you did, but that's not your voice. So write it yourself. And I would say that if you close a book and you go, “Oh, I'm so inspired to write,” and you sit down and you start writing right away, don't publish that. [laughs] K: Yeah. R: There is a process to developing your own ideas even if it's mostly internal and you never grab a notebook and work out the story itself. The process of coming up with your own ideas is not “I just read this, I'm going to go write because I'm inspired and I'm going to finish that book before I do anything else.” [laughs] That's probably going to be a very derivative, if not plagiaristic, book. So don't do that. I always recommend you sit with your ideas for a while before you sit down and write it.  K: Absolutely. I mean, that's important in general. R: Carry it around like a baby, pretend you're some kind of marsupial and you have your twelve-day gestation period but you still carry that little joey around for a while before it's ready to enter the world. That's kind of the process that I recommend for a writer. K: [laughs] So there you go. Be a marsupial. R: Be a marsupial. The opossum tail has its own fingerprints which are unique to it, so there's that. Grow a prehensile tail and commit crimes with it so that you can be tail-printed later. Alright, I don't know where this story's going.  K: I like it, I like it. R: Yeah, I like it too, but it's not a good way to wrap up an episode because all we can do is just stop. [laughs] So, if you have any questions about plagiarism or inspiration, or you just want to share your inspirations and influences, you can @ us on Twitter or Instagram @WMBcast. You can find us on patreon.com/WMBcast, and we will have some more marsupial facts for you in two weeks. K: [laughs] R: [laughs] Thanks everybody for listening, and I hope this was a helpful discussion. Kaelyn and I have to go sit at a desk and figure out- have we fulfilled the promises that we made to you when we started this podcast? Because we feel like we've just kind of been indulging ourselves in what topics we bring up, so if you feel like, “Hey, you said you were going to cover this, and you never covered that,” definitely tell us that too, because we want to go back to our mission statement and make sure that every once in a while we give you an episode that's in line with that. So if you have input to that regard, please let us know. Otherwise, marsupial facts in two weeks! Thanks everyone!

"I sucked his d**k immediately as soon as he walked through the door" INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/showingbrainpod/ http://instagram.com/theopticallychallenged http://instagram.com/tonymaneira TWITTER: http://twitter.com/showingbrainpod http://twitter.com/denzelalib DISCORD: https://discord.gg/X4CTnnJPGU REDBUBBLE: https://www.redbubble.com/people/denzelalib/shop?asc=u

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. We Make Books Ep. 71 Transcription Kaelyn: Today we're talking about villains and antagonists, and why they're not actually the same thing, except in the cases that they are. Rekka: Yes, exactly. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Perfect. I think that nails it. Sometimes they're not the same thing, sometimes they are. K: Yeah, and we'll kinda get to this but, most villains are antagonists - most, not all. Not all antagonists are villains. And in fact you will likely, in any given story, have multiple antagonists, not all of whom are the villain. I went through and really dug up all of this stuff; shockingly, the word ‘hero' is the one with the most definitions attached to it, and most different con - R: We're not talking about heroes today! We're not! K [overlapping]: Well we - but we have to, because we don't get villains without heroes, and we don't get antagonists without protagonists. Both villains and antagonists are defined and really only exist so that they can oppose or create conflict for the hero or protagonist. It kinda makes you wonder, if left to their own devices, maybe they're just a mad scientist in a lab somewhere. R: Maybe they're the hero of their own story. K: Yeah, and then suddenly someone shows up to fight them and now they're the bad guy. [laughing] R: “I was perfectly lawful and good until you showed up!” K: Exactly, yes. The basic difference between a villain and an antagonist is that an antagonist is somebody who is there to contend or oppose the main character, typically the protagonist of the story. They're there to create opposition. A villain is doing that, but they're evil. R: [laughs] K [laughing]: What they're doing is, the opposition that they're creating is either causing harm, causing suffering, will destroy the human race. It could be something more on a micro scale, where they've kidnapped the daughter of the main character; maybe they're trying to get their lemonade stand shut down so that they can sell lemonade that's gonna turn people into lizard people. An antagonist at the surface is just somebody who's doing things that's causing problems for the protagonist. They don't necessarily have to be evil. R: They could just be a rival. K: Yeah. Or any number of other things we're gonna get to here, but. And in fact as I mentioned, as you're reading a book, you're frequently gonna come across antagonists that are not actually evil. There's gonna be an antagonist who's the villain who may be evil at some point, not always, but there will be people that are antagonists. I will use an example that we love to use: Gideon the Ninth. Harrow definitely serves as an antagonist to Gideon through the book. But Harrow is not evil. R: Right. K: That's a great example of a villain operating without the audience knowing that the protagonist is coming into direct conflict with them because, we don't really find out who the villain of the story is until the very very end of it. Then we can look back and go like ‘Ah yes I see all of these things now.' The villain in the story, and spoilers if you haven't read Gideon the Ninth, but also if you listen to this podcast and you still haven't read it - R: You obviously are never going to read it at this point. K [laughing]: Yeah. The villain turns out to be Dulcinia, who is impersonating another character - and I stayed away, when writing notes for this and getting into the philosophical of what is evil and what is not - for these purposes we're gonna call her motives evil, in that she is trying to hunt down and destroy a lot of different people for her own reasons. The conflict that we come into there actually causes the antagonist and the protagonist in this, Gideon and Harrow, to sort of team up to oppose the actual villain, which by the way is a very common writing trope. Antagonists are a necessary component to any story even if they are not the source of central conflict. R: Yeah, because - and I know you're gonna lean into this example - but in Harry Potter, Draco Malfoy feels like he is central to everything in Harry's life, even though most of the time he just shows up to spew some awful thing he's overheard his parents say and then go away again. K: Draco is a good example of an antagonist who goes through a lot of different forms. Draco in the first few books of the series, he kinda shows up to make some comments and then leaves. He's not really doing much. Even in the second book when he's talking about the Chamber of Secrets and the heir of Slytherin and he actually is sitting around going ‘God I wish there was a way for me to help him' - well, okay, that's what minions do. Small antagonists. R: Most of the time everything that Draco Malfoy does or says is just to reinforce the fact that he's a jerk. K: Yeah, Draco just sorta pops up to remind all of us that there's Voldemort out there and his followers are terrible, because we don't see or interact directly with Voldemort for a lot of these books, so Draco's there to kind of remind us that he's out there. But then we finally get to book six, when Draco is given a very specific task to do: kill Dumbledore. And those listening at home, ‘okay well doesn't that make him a villain?' Well - does it? Because first of all he doesn't really actually wanna do this, but he has to. Second, he doesn't do it. At the end, he's not the one who carries this out. So again, everything's relative here. Because to Harry, he is just this thing that Harry feels he needs to track down and find out what's happening. You could go so far as to argue that Harry is creating his own conflict here, because if he just left Draco alone and went about his life trying to find these Horcruxes, things would've gone a lot smoother. R: [laughs] K: Dumbledore keeps telling Harry, ‘Hey. I got the Draco situation under control, don't worry about it.' Not in so many words and maybe if he had, again, things would've gone differently - R: You know what, communicating clearly is the antagonist of a plot. K: Okay. So that's interesting that you say that, because antagonists are not always people. R: Mhm. K: Antagonists can be certain external factors that the protagonist has to contend with. A good example of this is nature, in something like the movie Castaway. It's not evil - R [overlapping]: Okay. I was gonna say Deep Impact, like the meteor is not a villain, the meteor is an antagonist. K: Yeah. Exactly. It's not evil. The meteor or nature or something is not saying like, ‘Yes, I will destroy the world, and then also Tom Hanks.' [chuckles] R: If it can twirl its mustache, it might be a villain. K: It's just there, and it's something that the characters have to contend with. It can also be something supernatural; the thing I thought of off the top of my head was The Nothing in NeverEnding Story. It's operating unconsciously, if you will, in the sense that it doesn't seem to have nefarious purposes. It's just existing, and it's just growing. The characters are opposing it, they're trying to find a way to stop it, but it's not evil in and of itself. R: A hero trying to stop global warming is not fighting a villain. Unless - K: Ah, there's some villains in there. R: Yeah never mind, I take all that back. K: An antagonist can also be something like a society or an unjust system that the hero has to live and function in. The example that came to mind was Les Miserables. The main character, Jean Valjean, is sent to prison for stealing a loaf of bread because his sister and her children were starving. And we as the audience are meant to understand here that, while Javert - I believe is the name of the officer - is doing his duty by arresting him because he did commit theft, we understand that it is the dire circumstances of his society and his country that caused him to do this. His whole struggle and story is not only trying to lift himself up and overcome this system, but trying to one, make good on people he had hurt and things he had done in the process of this, but two, help other people that are also stuck in this system by hopefully coming up with a way to better it in the long run. I won't say overthrow it because he actively avoids that whole - R [overlapping]: Right. K: - part of the process in this story, but he is in his own way trying to get things to a better place. R: Yeah. K: I went through and just like, some ideas of antagonists who are not necessarily villains. We talked about Draco Malfoy - I will go to my grave saying that Draco is not a villain, he is first convenient exposition, and then an antagonist and an unwilling one at that. One of the ones I also thought of was Catra, from - R: Ah! K: - the first half of She-Ra, she kind of serves as sort of like a minion antagonist. R: Uh-huh. K: Her character evolves, and we'll talk about that as we continue to go through this. But she's an excellent example of just an antagonist. R: And again kind of like that rival thing - K: Yes. R: - like in anime or certain role playing video games, you always have the rival show up, and then by the end you are working with them to fight the actual villain. K: Another category is the conflict creators: people who are not evil, they don't have nefarious plots, but they're making the life of the main character unbearable. Mr. Darcy - R [overlapping]: [giggling] K: - from Pride and Prejudice is an excellent example of this. I threw the Lannisters on the list, and I'm sticking with the books - R: Right. K [laughing]: Not the TV show. R: So in this version, the Lannisters haven't managed to accomplish much yet. K: Yeah, exactly. Because, really, what are they doing? Are their motives evil? No, their motives are promoting and securing the prosperity and wellbeing of their family as much as possible. Now, they're doing things that again, evil being relative, we might look at this and go ‘oh they're evil.' I will choose the beheading of Ned Stark as a good example there. That's only evil to us because we like Ned Stark. R: Right. K: Because we look at him and see a good, just man who is being undone by his own kindness and mercy. The Lannisters look at him and go, ‘this guy's an idiot, and not only that he's a threat.' R: Mhm. K: ‘If we send him to the wall do you think his family is gonna go, ‘ah ok no problem, no harm no foul.'' Yeah, Joffrey's an impulsive little shit, who should not have done that and obviously messed up the plans of a lot of different third parties there, but from the perspective of the Lannisters he's right. R: Mhm. K: There was no reason to spare Ned Stark's life. R: It does start with the two incestuous Lannisters pushing a child out of a window though, so. K: Yes, and we can - that's a whole other episode about - R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: Well, trust me, I could do a whole episode about the evolution in literature, writing, and various media of using sexually-based components of character's personalities to demonstrate that they're evil. R: Mhm. K: But yes, this isn't to say that Jamie and Cersei themselves aren't evil, but the Lannisters as a whole are conflict creators. R: Okay. K: And within there they're all opposing each other in certain ways, but they're all kind of presenting a united front. R: The Lannister corporate machine. K: Yeah exactly. Casterly Rock incorporated. They're all presenting a united front in the promotion and wellbeing of their own family. There's obviously a lot of stuff going on there that we the audience know about, but pretend you're an outside observer in Westeros. Apart from some slight patricide - R: [laughs] K: - but that's okay, because that was the member of the family who we just barely put up with and obviously there was something wrong with him and we probably should've thrown him down a well a long time ago. R: Are you talking about Tyrion or are you talking about Tywin - K: Both, but from the perspective of the Lannisters, Tyrion. [laughing] R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: You can recover from that one, because of course there was something off about him, look at him. Never mind that he's the smartest and, actually, most caring member of their family, but y'know. That's not important, apparently. I made up an antagonist category that I'm calling “general pains in the ass.”  R: [laughing] K: [laughs] Where they are not necessarily doing anything, but their existence is just infuriating to the point that it's creating conflict for the protagonist. The one that I always love to point to is Gary from Pokémon. R: Mm. K: Who's just Ash's rival but it's a very hilariously one-sided rivalry.  R: Right, right. K: [laughs] The other one that I think is very good is actually: Sailor Moon, Tuxedo Mask in the anime. Because he is also trying to get the rainbow crystals.  R: Right. K: In a pain-in-the-ass antagonist - I would throw Rei in there. R: [laughs] Yeah, there you go. K: Again, the anime - the manga did not go into this, but they're constantly fighting over who's gonna be the better this-or-that, and who's doing the better job, and again, it creates conflict for Usagi because Rei is hyper-confident and very good at this, and Usagi is not, at all.  R: Right. It has more to do with Rei just constantly criticizing her and making her progression slower than anything else.  K: Yeah, you'll notice there's a lot of overlap here because apart from being a general pain in the ass in that scenario, Rei is also a conflict creator.  R: Yeah. K: The last one that gets a little philosophical is the protagonist themselves. Holden Caulfield is of course the standout example here, but I would take anybody that can't get out of their own way and put them on this list. One of the thoughts I came up with was Anakin Skywalker.  R: Okay. K: More with the Clone Wars TV show as a better example of that, but you certainly see it through the prequels as well. Has a set of morals and code that he lives by that is in direct conflict with what the Jedi are teaching him and telling him to do. R: Mhm. K: And that's an excellent case study into a descent into villany by having a singular goal and taking more and more extreme measures to meet it. R: Like Draco, there's somebody that is coaching him and trying to lead him in a direction that he wouldn't have chosen on his own almost at any point.  K: I'm not sure I agree with that, because what we see Anakin do over and over again, his singular motivation-- and this is, by the way, his antagonistic component-- is “protect my friends and loved ones.” R: Mhm. K: And so he's willing to take more and more extreme measures that in some cases are going to get him in trouble, he's going to have to go in front of the Jedi Council and go ‘I'm really sorry I did that, but I did save Obi-Wan, so I think it all works out in the end.' And you've got Yoda silently screaming in his head, going ‘This is not what Jedi are supposed to do, this is dangerous.' R: Yeah. K: But then also, it gets him to a point where his moral code is coming into conflict with what is important to him. So, yes I killed a bunch of people on a spaceship, but I saved all of the Senators and the Jedi on it. Well, now I've killed a bunch of children because I thought it was going to save my pregnant wife.  R: Mhm. K: And we're getting to a point where he can't differentiate those two things from one another because in the end you're still saving something or someone important.  R: Right. But I still think that - K [overlapping]: Oh, yes, having Palpatine - R [overlapping]: that progression -  K: - breathing in his ear for the whole time was not helping. [laughing] R: Yeah, that was an outside influence that encouraged that progression. K: Absolutely, yeah. So, that's another antagonistic force - that is an external factor, people attempting to influence the protagonist.  R: Mhm. K: So, we talked a lot about antagonists, and as we said, most villains - not all - most villains are antagonists but not all antagonists are villains. In order to be a villain, you gotta be evil. You have to be a quote-unquote “bad guy.” And you've gotta be doing something that is bad, something that's hurting either a people, or an entity, maybe nature, or a planet itself. Typically, you've got selfish motivations here. R: Mhm. K: Sometimes you have no motivations, and we'll get into that, because the pure evil villains are one of my favorite villains. But, villains are working to destroy a heroic purpose or protagonist. They may not know that that's what they're doing, but they're doing it. Some villains go their whole story without realizing that there's somebody working their way up to opposing them, because their protagonist is such a little miniscule blip on the scale of this evil plan here that they didn't even know someone was opposing them. Villains, they have to be bad. They don't exist in a vacuum. Y'know, we used the idea of the mad scientist who doesn't know he's the bad guy -  R: Mhm. K: - until someone shows up to fight him. If that guy's just left in his lab making some little itty bitty Frankenstein monsters to run around and help him with his experiments and things, then he never leaves and nothing bad ever happens, and the new Frankenstein monsters are happy with their existence, he's not a villain! [laughs] However, if he's oppressing those little Frankenstein monster guys, or maybe they're escaping out into the world and doing bad things to people that they encounter, that then starts to move him into the realm of villain.  R: Now, what if he's in his lab and his experiments are destroying the planet outside the lab, but he never leaves and he never realizes, and the Frankenstein [ed.: monster]s are happy?  K: Yeah, so this is where it gets weird, because what he's doing is evil but he's not doing it on purpose.  R: Mm. K: I'm trying to think what the classification for that would be. An unwilling villain, essentially. Maybe more of an antagonist at that point. I'm trying to come up with an example of something where somebody shows up and informs a scientist or creator doing something that what they're doing is having a negative impact on the world around it and they had no idea.  R: There is an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where they go to a planet where the people on the planet basically take some of the children off the Enterprise because they can't have children themselves, and the crew is able to convince them that it's their very powerful computer system that's causing radiation that's preventing them from being healthy, and that it would happen to the kids too if they stayed, and so on and so forth.  K: Yeah, I'm trying to - like, this one isn't necessarily as good an example, but in Ender's Game, at the very end we find out that the conflict, this whole giant conflict, kind of began almost on a misunderstanding that the human population encountered alien life in the form of bugs that were a hivemind.  R: Mhm. K: And the bugs killed all of the humans they encountered not understanding that there was a life form out there that wasn't a hivemind. Because from their perspective, it didn't matter if a few soldiers got killed, they were just essentially vessels for the larger collective consciousness. They didn't understand the - R [overlapping]: Right. Individuality. K: Yeah. So, that started them as an antagonist, but then this war escalates and escalates and, that one I don't know if we can come up with “villain” and whether sides are evil, at that point, but. With villains, they might not even need to know that they're directly opposing the main character. The biggest difference between the villain and the antagonist is that sometimes, but not always, the antagonist forms more of a plot role. It's somebody to be there to create conflict, to move the story along, or to motivate the protagonist. It's somebody who may provide opportunities for growth for the protagonist as well, again through opposition. K: Everything is opposition and conflict for antagonists. Antagonists, they can be friends or friendly rivals of the protagonist, but they are a plot role, they are helping to develop and move the character and the stories along. A villain is a character type. This is a potentially necessary component of the story, depending on the type of story that you're telling, and they have a role to serve within that. They have to be the central point of conflict for evil reasons, to give the character something moral and good and just to fight for and overcome. If this sounds contrived, or this sounds pedantic, I don't know what to tell you because this is literature. [laughs] R: [laughing] Yeah. K: This is - you will find this across all of human history in literature, the conflict between good and evil. That is the central focus of it. And listen, what we consider good and what we consider evil varies from culture to culture, time to time. Heroes don't fit a certain set of criteria across all cultures. If you go back and read any Greek myth, and what they consider to be heroes, most of these guys were assholes. Like, really bad people. But they did heroic things, and they lived in ways that were acceptable to the ancient Greeks.  R: Mhm. K: So therefore they were heroes. The Greeks are really interesting in that they did not write what was idealized, but what was true. So even though we know that the way they conducted their society, the way they lived and acted, is abhorrent to us, at the time it was acceptable. Not only acceptable, but encouraged.  R: Right. Perhaps even seen as heroic behavior.  K [overlapping]: To that end—yeah. To that end, evil is the same way.  R: Mhm. K: I'm gonna throw one last monkey wrench [laughs] into this - the villain, as we kept saying, most villains but not all are antagonists, because sometimes the villain's the protagonist. The villain is only the antagonist when they're not the main character of the story, when they're just serving as the sense of conflict. But sometimes in stories, the villain, who is evil and is doing evil things, is the protagonist, is the main character that we're following. Two of my favorite examples of this are Light from Death Note and Dexter from Dexter. Light is a teenager with a god complex who I wouldn't even say “starts off trying to do right in the world,” because if you watch the series really he's just experimenting using bad people until he gets the plan figured out. But, for those who are unfamiliar, Death Note is an outstanding anime that I highly recommend about a teenager who comes across a notebook that is stolen from a Japanese death god and learns that the names he writes in the notebook will die. And he gets more and more specific about specifying “will die at this time,” “will die in this way,” et cetera. And enters into this whole cat-and-mouse psychological thriller thing with himself and the police that are trying to stop this serial killer that they don't understand.  R: Right. K: The whole thing turns into this god complex of him establishing rules of what he thinks are right and wrong and threatening the entire world with what would basically be instantaneous death at his whim if they don't adhere to it. So let's be clear, Light is evil. He is killing people because they're not acting the way he wants them to. But he is the main character and the protagonist of the story, and if you watch it you find yourself cheering for him outwitting the police, outwitting this detective. One of the detectives, by the way, is his father. And you're still goin,g “Come on, Light, you can get yourself out of this one!” Dexter Morgan from Dexter is another good example. Dexter is a serial killer. Dexter has kill rooms where he duct tapes people to tables, ritualistically stabs them, chops the bodies up, and drops them in the water off the coast of Miami.  R: Mhm. K: Dexter also has a complex set of morality that he adheres to, and Dexter is a little bit different because he doesn't want to do these things, he wishes he wasn't like this, but he knows that he is and there's nothing he can do about it. The books are a little stranger about this than the TV show. So he's channeling his awfulness into only killing murderers.  R: Right, and the rules of morality that he follows are not actually his morals.  K: Yeah. R: They were given to him. K: Yes. As a way to hopefully help maintain and control him. But he's still killing people. And he's still operating outside the justice system. He's very careful about gathering all the evidence and knowing “yes, this person's definitely a murderer,” but he's still serving as judge, jury, and executioner without giving anyone the benefit of due process. In his mind it doesn't matter why you killed somebody. You killed somebody. And it's coming less from a place of morality than an opportunity to be an outlet for his own base urges. Villains can be protagonists. Just because somebody is the main character of the story doesn't necessarily mean that they're good.  R: In fact, I feel a little bit better about some books thinking about it that way. [laughs] K: Yeah, absolutely. And, look, there's a whole thing you can get into with the hero vs. the antihero, and what is considered heroic and what is considered acceptable; god, I think there's been entire books written about this, with Superman as a core component there. It is very nuanced to kind of sort these things out of where the line is between hero and villain, and even more so where the line is between antagonist and villain. At what point do you stop being just an inconvenience or a pain in the butt that someone's gotta deal with and become somebody who is an active threat to not just the protagonist but potentially those around them as well? R: I know a book can have antagonists and villains, we've established several that do. Can you have a book with more than one villain?  K: Absolutely!  R: How do they not just sort of shrink down to become antagonists, then, if there's more than one? Or is it just because of their behavior being evil? K: Let's go back to another favorite of ours, Avatar: the Last Airbender. I would make the argument that both Azula and Ozai are villains. I think there are definitely people who would take Azula and put her more in the antagonist category; I disagree, she's evil, she has evil motivations. She also wants to conquer and subjugate the entire world and is willing to burn it down to do it. Hers and her father's ideologies and motives line up pretty closely. The difference is that Ozai sits in this palace and we don't see him for most of the series, and Azula's out there running amuck. R: So one can be a subordinate of the other, and they can both still be villains. K: Absolutely, yeah. And villains can work together, we got the superhero team ups on villains all the time. Dunno if you ever watched Venture Bros. - R: Yeah. K: - but the Guild of Calamitous Intent is one of my favorites, not that they're all teaming up against the same protagonist there. But yeah you absolutely can have multiple villains; one who is working under or for the other. You could have minions that are villains, as long as their intentions are evil. To that end with Avatar I would say Ty Lee and Mai are antagonists, not villains. Because they're minions who are kinda just there to do what Azula says but like, they don't necessarily want to burn down and subjugate the rest of the world, they're just sort of along for the ride. I think with multiple villains, a lot of times when you see that you're kind of dealing with an ensemble cast, and everyone's gonna sort of have a little area they have to go break off into. But not always, look at Star Wars. Yeah, Darth Vader was redeemed at the end, but you had two evil villains one right after the other, and again we're kinda seeing the same power dynamic as Azula and Ozai. K: To kind of round all of this out, villains are evil. And they usually have to have some sort of evil motivation or plan or action to match this. They might be so evil that they aren't even aware that everyone knows they're evil and is trying to stop them. Villains do not necessarily have to come in immediate direct conflict with protagonists in order to be villains. They can just be out there doing their little villain evil plan thing and not even know that someone's coming to fight them to the death until that person shows up to do so. They don't have to be directly opposed to the protagonist. In some cases, they can be the protagonist. But they've gotta have bad intentions. R: For the thrill of having bad intentions. K: Some of it can be for the thrill. The pure villains, those are my favorite ones, the ones that we never quite find out why they're doing what they're doing, they're just doing it. I use the example of Maleficent, from the original Sleeping Beauty movie, not the Angelina Jolie with lots of backstory and sympathetic character origins. Maleficent shows up, she's mad that she didn't get invited to the party but we kind of all get the impression that there's a reason she wasn't, but nobody quite knows what it is or what's going on here. R: Because we knew she would make a scene! K [laughing]: I think it's because she showed up and cursed the princess. R: So they saw that coming, you're saying. K: Yeah maybe. R: Even though the exact way to prevent that, according to Maleficent, would've been to invite her. K: The logic gets a little circular there, to be sure. [laughs] But yeah so, the villain is a character type, it's not a plot role. The villain is not always necessarily there to advance the protagonist or the plot. They certainly can, but they're not doing it directly all the time. R: Mhm. K: This is, villains are one of those sometimes-but-not-always-except-for-this-and-then-that-happens kind of situation. Antagonists on the other hand, they're not necessarily evil, they can be actually just regular cool decent normal people who happen to have a conflicting agenda with the protagonist. They just want different things. Last week we did MacGuffins. The antagonist may just be running around after their own MacGuffin, and for some reason that's causing problems for the protagonist. Maybe they also want that MacGuffin for a completely different reason, one that is mutually exclusive of what the antagonist wants; they can't team up there. Or maybe they just also wanna have the top spot at the dojo, and so they're gonna be in conflict with the protagonist there. The thing that makes the antagonist an antagonist is that they are opposed to the protagonist, and they will cause conflicts with the story's main character. It's a plot role, and it doesn't necessarily speak to the character's personality or motivations. They are there to create and cause conflict for the main character to either resolve, oppose, or fall to. R: So when I proposed this topic to you, I kind of thought of antagonists as mini-bosses and the villain as the big boss, thinking of video games and the way that's usually structured. So, this is unexpected. K [laughing]: Listen, an antagonist can be a mini-boss. It's all about motivations. R: But they can also just be that person living their life that has always bugged you because they microwaved fish in the lunchroom that one time. K: That person might be a villain. R: [laughs] Just wanna contradict me at every turn. K: I dunno, somebody who microwaves fish, that seems like evil intentions to me. [laughing] R: Look, they live with the consequences of that decision for the rest of their life. K: That's very very true. Anyway, so, Rekka any - R: Can an antagonist be the protagonist? K: No, those are mutually exclusive yeah. There's somebody who is not evil and they're the main character of the story, they're the protagonist. R: So they don't have a goatee or a mustache to twirl, and they're the main character, then they're the protagonist every time. K: Yes. The primary component for being the protagonist is that the story is about you, you're the principal character. If you are serving in an antagonistic role as the protagonist, you're still the protagonist, you're just a jerk. R: So when I get up and look in the mirror in the morning and I say, “Hey, butthead,” I'm still the protagonist of my life. K: You are both the protagonist and antagonist of your own life, yes. R: That feels accurate. K: [laughing] I think most of us are. R: Yeah. K: Well we said, a good example of an antagonist is the character themselves. R: Yep. Alright, I think I get it. K: We can always come back and talk more about it, because this one was fun to do some research on and get some thoughts together. R: So you would say that a book or a story plot requires an antagonist but doesn't necessarily require a villain. K: Yes, definitely. R: And the protagonist is completely optional. K: Yes, we're just gonna have a bunch of antagonists running around causing conflict for each other. Well, I think that's pretty much every murder mystery, so. R: So if it's a third person omniscient, and there is no main POV, we can have a book with no protagonist. Got it. K: I feel like you're trying to trick me into something but I don't know what. [laughing] R: I'm antagonizing you, I'm sorry. K: It's an important thing to do. R: As an editor you need to have your feathers ruffled every now and then. K: It creates conflict, and conflict creates growth. R: And plot. K: And plot. [laughing] But yeah thank you so much for listening everyone as always, hopefully this was helpful information, I know this was a lot of mincing of minute details, but - R: Yeah I mean maybe this was the episode you never knew you never wanted but - K [overlapping]: [laughs] R: - if there is an episode topic that you do know you want, you can find us on Twitter and Instagram @WMBcast, and you can also find us at patreon.com/WMBcast. And we'd love to hear your suggestions for topics or questions. If we have confused you in any way, then you can blame Kaelyn, and also let us know and we'll try to fix that. Thanks everyone! K: Thank you so much.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Episode Transcript (by Rekka) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: I love MacGuffins. R: Or weenies. I think we should start calling them "weenies" again. K: Go back to the original name. Yeah, it's funny because like, I think MacGuffin has like a negative connotation around it and I love it as a plot device where it's just like, there's this thing. And everyone wants it. In some cases we don't even really know what it does. There's like oh, the suitcase from pulp fiction. That's a great MacGuffin. R: That was going to be my example. K: In one of the Mission: Impossible movies, the one with Phillip Seymour Hoffman, you know, they're trying to get this, this thing from this guy. And Phillip Seymour Hoffman is this like the most terrifying crime lord in the world. And he can't get this thing. We literally never find out what it does, why they need to keep it out of his hands so badly and, and have it for themselves. But yeah we kinda conceived of this episode is talking about MacGuffin versus plot devices. So, let's be clear. All MacGuffins are plot devices, not all plot devices are MacGuffins. So as I always like to do a, you know, a little bit of history here, MacGuffin the terms often chalked up as being coined by, Alfred Hitchcock and his friend and screenwriter, MacPhail, but it actually goes back quite a bit before that there was an actress in the 1920s named of Pearl White, which I can only assume as a stage name. R: Her movies brought to you by Colgate. K: I genuinely hope that's a stage name. But she was in a lot of spy movies or action movies where everyone was chasing after something. And she was in so many of them that she started calling the items in question "weenies" because it didn't matter. And the, it was almost getting a little formulaic in her movies that it could have been, you know, like a roll of film, a document, a, a key that opens a certain, you know, safe or something. It really didn't matter what they were. It was just, you know, these suspense action inspired movies, everyone trying to chase down the same object. R: The reason that it doesn't matter is because no one actually ever really uses it. You just want to have it, right? K: Yeah. Yeah. It's frequently MacGuffin-related plots are resolved by "the real treasure was the friends we made along the way," which is one of the more infuriating endings. R: I like friends. K: Friends are great. Yeah. But like, okay. So I was going to get to this, to this later and the thing that, like one of my favorite examples of a MacGuffin that becomes un-MacGuffinned and is National Treasure That film is very rare in that they actually find and maintain hold of the treasure in the end of it, think of like, you know, like the Goonies or Pirates of the Caribbean, like Treasure Planet, they all find the treasure, but they don't really actually get to keep any of it. National Treasure really upended that by, by letting those characters not only find it, but then we find out how much money they got for it. R: And Disney's Atlantis. They did have the treasure at the end, too. K: That's true. R: They didn't tell anyone they had treasure. They just suddenly were all very wealthy. K: Yes, it was very good. So yeah, MacGuffins are by definition, it's a functionally meaningless interchangeable object whose only purpose is to drive the plot. The function of a MacGuffin is that there are characters or multiple groups of characters that want it, and they're all competing or outwitting or racing to get this object. R: The method by which it drives the plot. It creates the tension between different parties. K: Yes, exactly. Or it could be, you know, something like a treasure hunt where, you know, the MacGuffin is the treasure. So we know what its function is. It's going to make somebody rich, but it really is just there as an object to be desired. One of the fun things I learned while doing, you know, putting some notes together, researching this is it's generally accepted that one of the first MacGuffin in commonly accepted MacGuffin and literature was the holy grail, which is very common plot device for Arthurian legend. And then, you know, later tales where this is also treasure. Yes. It had religious significance, but therefore making it a worthwhile pursuit for these holy and sanctified nights. But yeah, it was functionally a MacGuffin because once you get the holy grail, what do you do with it? Well, it depends. If you're in an Indiana Jones movie or not, I know. The Arthurian knights were not not planning to make themselves immortal by that. They were planning to just get it and put it somewhere to look at it and go, it's the holy grail. Yay. So MacGuffins, like I said, it's got a negative connotation around it, I believe. And I do think that is that's very unfair. It's often treated like, well, it's just something that they had to put in there to get the characters, to act, to do something. And it's like, well, yeah, but that's a book. R: Yeah. You need a plot. K: That's how plot devices work. I think where MacGuffins get a bad rep so to speak is because they're meaningless and interchangeable. There are a lot of books, movies, TV shows where the MacGuffin is interchangeable. How many, you know, heist films have you watched where it's like, we need to get this thing in order to, you know, make this next step. And then it turns out that it's like, oh no, wait, things have changed. We need get this other thing. It doesn't have to be the same MacGuffin through the course of the story. They can change based on, you know, how the plot's moving or circumstances or the needs or wants of the characters. As I mentioned before, all MacGuffin are plot devices, not all plot devices are a MacGuffin. So that was kind of, you know, we wanted to talk a little bit about what a MacGuffin is and what it isn't thereby, what is a plot device and what its function is. K: Plot devices are basically a technique and narrative use to move the plot forward. It can be anything from, you know, characters and their actions to objects, to gifts of mysterious origins that we're not quite sure about. Now. It can be relationship, plot devices cover a lot of different things. One of them is MacGuffin. So, you know, saying like, well saying this object, it's just a plot device. Well, it might not be just a plot device. It might be a MacGuffin, but plot devices can be other things. Chekov's gun is of course a plot device. The Chekov's gun rule is if you're going to have a gun on the stage in the first act of a play, somebody needs to fire it in the third act of a play because otherwise it's just, you know, a decoration at that point. I don't like that. R: I don't think it's just that it's a decoration it's that your audience is going to wonder about it and that you don't want to distract or disappoint. K: If there's a play going on and there's a gun hanging on the wall and it's set in a hunting lodge that seems fairly normal. R: But for example, if I see somebody in a movie, pick a rifle out of their nightstand and tuck it into their belt, I know that, you know, something's going to escalate. K: Yeah, exactly. Or at least we're, we should be reading into that. Character is planning for there to be some kind of a conflict or a scenario in which they may need to defend themselves. Right. But let's talk a little bit about pot devices. As I mentioned, they're things that are intended to move the plot along. There's an endless list of things that are plot devices. And as I said, these can be anything from relationships. Like a love triangle is a frequently as plot device. Definitely one of my least favorites. First of all, they're very rarely actually triangles. They're more like two lines converging on a single point in order for there to be a triangle, all three people involved need to be having— R: So is the object of the other two's interest a MacGuffin? K: Could be, I've talked endlessly about what a ridiculous character Bella from Twilight is. And I mean, she's, she's borderline a MacGuffin. Like really, you know what, God, that's a really good thought experiment. I'm going to have to like find some kind of a summary now and go, go through this and see if like Bella is actually a MacGuffin. R: If the character themself doesn't have any agency, like the damsel in distress that you don't even see until you storm the castle in the third act. K: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And we'll get to things that can be MacGuffin that you might not think would be a MacGuffin. So one of them that I actually stumbled across that I didn't think about as a plot device is the Deus ex Machina. So Deus ex Machina it's was a commonly used plot device, especially in Greek comedies and tragedies, primarily tragedies, I suppose where an improbable event is used to resolve everything and bring the story to a conclusion, usually a happy conclusion, fun fact about the Deus ex Machina, of course, you know, it's the Latin for "God in the machine." it was because that's because in a lot of great tragedies and plays, they'd have this mechanism by which an actor portraying a God was lowered into the stage, does god things, you know, changes whatever's happening, and then that's the end of the story. So God in the machine was what was coined for that. This one I will say generally is something that writers are encouraged to avoid. It's it's not great storytelling. Like if, you know, you're lining up for the big conflict and everyone's squared off and waiting to see what happens. And then an earthquake happens and kills everyone... R: Yeah. You know, the earthquake, wasn't something that had been foreshadowed or anything like that. It's kinda like the "Oh, and I woke up and it was all a dream." K: I always say like the T-Rex at the end of the first Jurassic Park movie. R: Just shows up and chomps. K: Just shows up and is like "Raptors! Mmm!" R: A lot of people were pretty satisfied by the T-Rex if, if it had been T-Rexes in the tragedies, we could've had a whole new view of the Deus ex Machina. K: Yeah. It was a, it was a very satisfying ending and it was certainly a "whoa, holy crap. Like, yeah, I forgot. There's also huge dinosaurs running around here. Right." R: And again, so like that was foreshadowed. It was Chekov's T-Rex for your T-Rex Machina. K: It is a little bit of an ex Machina because first of all, the last time we saw the T-Rex, it was very far from the visitor center. And also no one can explain to me how it got in there. So, but you know. It's fine. R: Hey, look. If you really want to nitpick Jurassic Park, let's just talk about how the Jeep fell into the T-Rex enclosure. They did not get to a fence. And yet there were brachiosaurs. Why were they in the T-Rex enclosure? K: I thought they were outside the T-Rex enclosure along a cliff. R: I didn't see a fence. K: The geography of this is, is definitely slightly slightly suspect. But also a plot device, the T-Rex in this is, you know, serving as, as a plot device, in that it is forcing the characters to act and make decisions really. We all know that if they just sat quietly in the cars, the movie would have been a lot different. R: But the MacGuffin of Jurassic Park would be the dinosaur DNA. K: Yes. in one aspect of the plot, definitely, the Nedry plot. I would argue that that is much more relevant to everything, but like, it is a weird little side plot where this chain of events gets kicked off because of yes, the dinosaur DNA, which is not meaningful for the story. Is it interchangeable? I don't know. I would say no on that, but it definitely, for that particular part of the plot serves as a MacGuffin. K: One of the examples I always use that, you know, people point to and say is a MacGuffin, but is absolutely not, is the one ring from Lord of the Rings. It's not an interchangeable object there, isn't another, you know, another thing that they could go take and throw into this volcano, the only reason they're going to throw in this ring into Mount Doom is because it has to be that specific ring. And it has to be thrown into Mount Doom. We lose the whole story of the one ring corrupting and torturing everybody that's holding it. You know, we lose the the character development that comes from the people who have to carry this ring and what it does to them. So that's one we're, you know, I see like people saying like, oh yeah, and the one ring, the MacGuffin. Like it's not, that is not a MacGuffin. It is a plot device, but it is not a MacGuffin. R: Right. It's an object that everybody wants, but it is a carefully crafted object in terms of the story that is the foundation of the story itself. K: Yeah. The one ring, I would say, even goes so far as to serve as a theme in that story, essentially. One of my favorite plot devices is a plot coupons. Rekka also loves these. R: Like you need the blue key card and then come back with the blue key card. And then, you know, you can open this blue locked door. The idea that you need this thing before the story can go any further and it has to be this thing. But that thing is not going to come around later. It's not like that key will open another door later. It will open this one door that we need to progress, but there's probably going to be another door later. K: And again, this is not a MacGuffin because it's not interchangeable. You need that specific key. The other way to sort of integrate plot coupons into your story is there's a certain number of objects you need to collect in order to get something else. My favorite one of these is Dragon Ball. You want to summon the dragon. I believe his name was Shen. You have to collect all seven dragon balls to do that. So the story is being driven by the quest to find all of these, some in the dragon and then summoning the dragon from there typically drives the plot forward even more. It's very rarely goes the way you want it to when you're collecting, collecting things for a larger thing. It's not like a carnival where you get enough tickets, you get the giant teddy bear and then you go home. That teddy bear might kill you. Yeah. Similarly to, to plot coupons is a plot voucher which is something that a character is given or, you know, picks up on a whim or just, you know, is particularly entranced by and goes, I'm going to take this object. And then it turns out to be incredibly useful or life-saving, or exactly the thing that they needed or didn't realize the value of it. Something like that. R: This is frequently a Star Trek: The Next Generation thing where Wesley is working on this school project and that school project saves the planet later when he connects it to the war coils. K: Yeah. There you go. Yeah. it's a very common thing in especially fantasy because you know, it's this there's a lot of concepts of hidden and mysterious objects where something that you have, you don't realize that's what it is the whole time you have it. And then suddenly it's magically revealed at the end. One of my favorites. I don't know if anyone listening to this or Rekka, I feel like you may have read like the, you know, the subsequent Wizard of Oz books. R: I have not read the sequels. K: Oh really? Okay. Yeah, and um R: I always meant to, but I just never got around to it. K: They're good. They're good. I got, I got really into them and I believe it's, is it in the second book? I can't remember. And one of them were Dorothy returns to Oz and they're trying to, you know, so Oz is now without a leader and she goes off on this whole quest with this boy that she finds who he's an orphan. And he doesn't have a lot of memories from when he was younger and they go in this whole thing and they're trying R: Well that sounds like a missing king. K: Better. It's a missing queen. Because they finally turn— their whole thing is they're trying to track down this witch who may know where the heir Ozma is. And they finally confront her and she tearfully breaks down and points to the boy and says, "I turned her into a boy." Dorothy's had the queen with her the whole time and didn't realize it. So yeah, that's a, you know, that's a good, I'm not sure that really fits the plot voucher, but I'm going to say that it does, because Dorothy does go out of her way to have this boy accompany her. I think the boy's name is Pip because of course it would be. You know, somebody who on a whim picks up like a bulletproof vest or has given a bullet professed and then get shot later. Or you know, there's always like the little meek character that they give like a knife or a gun to, and say here, hold this just in case. K: And then the main character is getting strangled to death and they use it. Those are plot vouchers. Another one— and then I promise I'll stop going through plot devices here, but I, I always enjoy this—is a good red herring. Very common in murder mysteries and thriller stories and even a spy novels. You know, this is trying to divert the audience of the reader's attention away from something and draw it to something else. You know, I mentioned murder mystery. So like this would be like, you know, the whole family's gathered for dinner and the grandmother suddenly dies. And the doctor of the family declare she's been poisoned, and who would have the motive for doing this? And while you, the reader trying to sort through all of this, there becomes a character who it's to you very clear has the best motives, the best opportunity and everything. But in the case of that, being a red herring, what it's doing is it's distracting you from something that's happening in the background, where there is actually a better candidate to be the murderer, but the author doesn't want you to know that yet. Red herrings are frequently used for another plot device, which is of course the plot twist, right? Very difficult to have a plot twist without a series of very well laid out red herrings. Yeah. R: And you have to be very balanced in how you use them. So you don't tip off that they are red herrings. Like they can't be so overtly obvious, although in certain genres they are tropes and people want the red herring and they want to be the smart one who figures out who the actual killer is before the detective realizes they are after the wrong person or whatever. K: Red herrings can actually be used within the book as well. Something that the you know, antagonist of the story does, to deliberately mislead our band of noble heroes and send them off on a wild goose chase so they can continue their nefarious plans undeterred, would be a red herring used within the context of the story. That's I hope kind of a good, "This is a plot device. This is a MacGuffin," but one thing I did want to touch on was things that can be MacGuffins, but don't seem like they would be MacGuffins. Because as we mentioned, MacGuffin is need to be, you know, functionally meaningless interchangeable and lacking agency. And these don't necessarily seem like things that would check off those boxes R: Just by their inherent nature. You're going to say people as your first one. So like you would see a character and you're going to think they're going to act with some agency. They're going to try to manipulate the world around them to get what they want. But sometimes... K: Sometimes they're just MacGuffins. You know, I mentioned, I am going to go back and try to figure this out. If Bella from Twilight is actually just a MacGuffin. My— I'm going to say in some books, yes. For staggeringly, large parts of the book. Baby Yoda is a MacGuffin for a really long time in the Mandalorian. Yes, it's a sentient functioning creature that in some cases does interact with and change the environment, but he really doesn't have a lot of agency. He's just sort of, kind of getting carted around by, by the Mandalorian. R: He wants to eat amphibians. K: He wants to eat amphibians and their eggs. And everybody wants him. Everyone is trying to get this child that—the viewer see some examples of his power early on, but most of the people trying to get him don't realize that. And even, you know, up to the very end, if not like at the, you know, the end of the story so far, he's suddenly become a very involved, interactive character, altering and changing the world around him. He's still, he's an object that's handed off. R: Right. Although technically by sending the Jedi signal homing signal, yes, he does get used. So therefore—. K: Yes, he becomes a plot device at that point. R: He is no longer a MacGuffin, but yeah, for most of the season, he is. K: He's kind of a Deus ex Machina there. R: Well, okay. Is he the Deus ex Machina or is Luke showing up to take him away the Deus ex Machina? K: Spoilers for Mandalorian season two, which— R: If you care, you already know. K: Yeah, Exactly. No, I would say he's the Deus ex Machina because by that point, Luke is a function of him. He only shows up for him. Okay. He's not a MacGuffin because he's not interchangeable if you know, Han Solo showed up that wouldn't have been very helpful for everyone. I mean, you know, extra gun, I guess, but Luke's the one we really needed in that situation, but yeah. And you see this you see this a lot in video games, like the escort quests, where, you know, you just have like some silly character that keeps trying to like run into dangerous situations and you have to prevent them from doing it. That's, they're serving as a MacGuffin at that point. You know, Rekka made the example of like the damsel in distress. People can be MacGuffins for a time and then change into plot devices or then even characters. R: Okay. But when you are looking over somebody or something from a story, how do you say here's where they change? And that changes them like before they weren't a plot device? K: Where, where is the crossover? R: Well, like when you're, when you're saying like, yes, that's a MacGuffin or yes, that's a plot device. Like if, as a plot device that meant that later they did something. So then were they ever a MacGuffin? K: Yes. MacGuffins do not have to stay MacGuffins. Hmm. You can graduate from MacGuffin to plot device and plot device to character. That's what typically is going to take a person from a MacGuffin to, you know, being part of the story, be it as a character or a plot device is them acting either on their own behalf or on the behalf of the people that were basically treating them as a MacGuffin at that point. Some of the common tropes with this is them suddenly gaining a power of some kind, you know, maybe this was like this you know, child princess that needed to be escorted across the galaxy. So she could go back and claim her throne. But basically we just had to keep her hidden and locked away and make sure, you know, people keep attacking the ship and trying to stop us from getting her home. K: But then she touches a crystal that she shouldn't have. And now she's going to get them all safely home she's then, you know, not a MacGuffin at that point, she is, you know, a character or maybe on some level, a plot device, usually in order for a person to be a true MacGuffin, they have to be completely helpless: babies, children that can't take care of themselves or, oh, here's a good one. Macguffins that will—like I mentioned with Ozma in, you know, the Wizard of Oz sequel books—MacGuffins that you didn't realize were with you the whole time. And they transform into something that transcends being a MacGuffin. You know, they were cursed to just be this rock. And for some reason, someone's got the rock with them the whole time and it's a MacGuffin, but then it's, you know, we broke the curse and it's actually a person. R: Or in science fiction, you might have somebody that's like in stasis, in cryo, and you don't know why you're transporting them or why everyone keeps attacking your ship to get them or something. K: Macguffins aren't static. They don't always have to stay MacGuffin. A good example of a MacGuffin that does not stay MacGuffin is an egg, anytime, you know, there's a, a precious egg or something similar that we have to, you know, be transporting and getting to wherever it needs to hatch or something. And then it hatches probably dragons are a really good example or trope here. And then it actually hatches and turns into a dragon. Well, that dragon is not a MacGuffin because it's a dragon. R: And at the very least it changes the plot by being a hungry, now-alive thing. K: Very much so, very much. So other things that can be MacGuffins. We talked about interchangeable objects a little bit, you know, the MacGuffin does not have to be the static standard object to the whole time. It can change. It can be, you know, it's whatever the character or characters desire or need at that moment. R: It could be a relay race of MacGuffins. K: Exactly. Really, honestly it could. It really could. And then the other one that I had made a note of here is a place. So, you know, we think of the MacGuffin as an object that you're trying to hold, but it can also be a place that you're trying to get to that is, you know, maybe not, we're not sure if it's real, if it's a fabled, you know, legendary location El Dorado is a good example of that. A lot of, a lot of treasure seeking-based stories have places that sort of serve as MacGuffins. And to the clear, the treasure being a MacGuffin and the place being a MacGuffin are two different things, because the treasure—like I'll go back to National Treasure—Um they very explicitly stayed in that, that it's been moved around a lot. So they're not trying to find a specific place. They are trying to find a specific thing. They just don't know where it is. R: And once they get it, they're going to remove it from that place. K: Yes. A MacGuffin that is a place is a specific spot that you've got to get to. Maybe it's a sacred temple where you could only perform this specific resurrection spell, or maybe it's a city made entirely of gold or like Treasure Planet was a good one because you had to get to that specific planet and that specific place on the planet in order to, you know, find and access all of this treasure. R: Or in the Mummy Returns, when they are trying to release the scorpion bracelet from their son's wrist, they have to go to this temple specifically to do that. K: Yeah. So places can be a little tricky. They, they verge a little bit more on, on plot devices, but there are definitely a place can serve as a MacGuffin, especially if it's like a legendary one that nobody can really prove exists. K: By the way, if there's a lot to read on a MacGuffin is out there and you know, why they're, they're really not actually a bad, a bad thing. But conflating them, you know, conflating all plot devices and saying it's a MacGuffin is not actually accurate. K: Because plot devices are a lot more dynamic than MacGuffins. And there's a lot of different types and how they can be replied. Plot devices are a writing technique. Macguffins are a component of the writing technique. So anyway, I like a good MacGuffin. I think they're a lot of fun. And I think plot devices can be really helpful for, for writing. Again, it's something that like, there are these things that I think like they just exist. They're things that we have and things we have to, you know, have in our stories, but we talk about them very dismissively for some reason. I'm never quite sure why that is. R: I think a lot of the dismissiveness comes from people who have more of a literary mind with regard to their storytelling. K: Possibly. R: So that either they are dismissive of genre fiction entirely, or they feel like it's their duty to elevate genre fiction by eliminating tropes, which would then eliminate the genre. K: Yeah. R: Um yeah, I think that that's the perception I get anyway from the discourse I see about these things, but yeah. I definitely got the impression as a, you know, emerging writer that MacGuffins, were a bad thing. But you know, as we pointed out, there's a lot of people's favorite movies, favorite stories, favorite movies, favorite plays that are just chock full of MacGuffins. K: All of the Indiana Jones, R: Pretty much, yeah. This belongs in a museum because it can just go behind glass and stay there. But in the meantime, let's fight over it. K: They Ark of the Covenant by the way, is one of my favorite MacGuffins: the Instakill MacGuffin. By the way, this is a trope is the MacGuffin that you get. And you're finally like, "Haha I have the thing." And then it kills everyone. R: The MacGuffin that you should not mess with. K: Yes. I like MacGuffins. R: Macguffins are good. And if the advice is, "I don't know what to do in the scene," "make something blow up." Like why not use a MacGuffin to keep your plot moving forward? K: Yeah. R: There's definitely a draw in like wanting an object. People can understand multiple people wanting the same object. This is the nature of humanity. So it's something we can identify quickly and relate to and understand without spending a whole bunch of time on it. K: If you just exist in your life, you're going to come across a lot of MacGuffins. My current MacGuffin is I really want a bagel. R: But it has to be a New York bagel. So it's not just a MacGuffin. K: It has to be the everything bagel with scallion cream cheese from the place around the corner from me. And the thing is, I don't have time to go get it right now, but I really want it. And for my life, it is functionally meaningless and interchangeable, because I could very easily just go get some toast out of the fridge and that will nourish and satiate me. But it's not the thing that I desire. R: But it's not. Yeah. It's not going to satisfy you. It's just going to feed you. K: Yes, exactly. Exactly. All right. Well, I think that's MacGuffins. Thank you so much, everyone for listening. R: And we'll be back with something else that we have opinions on in two weeks. K: We have a lot of opinions. R: Thanks, everyone.

On this week's edition of the podcast we review the only show in town, the Ryder Cup at Whistling Straits where Team USA lived up to their billing to record a record breaking win over Europe in Wisconsin. We react to the 19-9 demolition at the hands of Steve Stricker's immensely talented team on a difficult week for Europe's Captain, Padraig Harrington. We look at where the contest was won and lost, and what the manner of America's win means for the Ryder Cup as a whole as we take a view towards Rome in two years time. As ever, we have the Irish angle covered too in what was a highly emotional week for both Shane Lowry and Rory McIlroy. As ever, we hope you enjoy the listen. Don't forget to subscribe and let us know what you think.

This week, Giannis picked a classic both co-hosts love - Sherlock Jr. starring the always brilliant (excluding MGM and Fatty Arbuckle) Buster Keaton!Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/fkyouropinionpodcast)

YouTube link: https://youtu.be/80f47smhYEI Jon Blow is the renown designer of The Witness, and Braid. Sponsors: https://brilliant.org/TOE for 20% off. http://algo.com for supply chain AI. Patreon: https://patreon.com/curtjaimungal Crypto: https://tinyurl.com/cryptoTOE PayPal: https://tinyurl.com/paypalTOE Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt Discord Invite: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/better-left-unsaid-with-curt-jaimungal/id1521758802 Pandora: https://pdora.co/33b9lfP Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e Subreddit r/TheoriesOfEverything: https://reddit.com/r/theoriesofeverything LINKS MENTIONED: -Jon's talk on video game ideas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCVVLAs9mJU -Jon's talk on motivation and burnout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7kh8pNRWOo -Iain McGilchrist interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-SgOwc6Pe4 -Rupert Spira interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocP6JSyicY0 THANK YOU: -BigPhilCombo (on the discord) for managing the Discord voluntarily and making it a place where almost 900 people talk respectfully TIMESTAMPS: 00:00:00 Introduction 00:02:46 Jon recounting people using him for clicks 00:05:53 Too many wannabe gurus, and not enough instruction in our culture 00:08:00 Curt's mainupulation of the "formal" aspects of film is owed to Jonathan 00:09:34 The goal of understanding the universe (what does that mean?) 00:17:23 How understanding oneself is related to understanding the universe 00:19:41 Limits of language and "truth" 00:25:10 Video game design and building one's own TOE 00:33:22 Examples of what works and doesn't in game design for Braid's aesthetics 00:44:03 Game mechanics vs the "theme" 00:54:29 Not being able to explain true art 00:56:06 True art vs. "propaganda" 01:04:01 Dislike of contemporary art 01:12:06 Jon on video game reviews (and discussions on art, in general) 01:32:32 Specifics on how Jon does video game design 01:42:02 Rupert Spira in The Witness 01:47:08 Original ideas are difficult 01:49:34 Meditation and life long insights from single moments 02:00:20 Materialism vs. qualia vs. stories vs. models 02:06:25 Wolfram's physics model 02:09:21 Free Will is too "simple" 02:16:12 Super Bunyhop's and Joseph Anderson's review of The Witness 02:16:39 Dunkey? 02:16:45 VR is interesting but not for immersion 02:22:54 Stanley Parable 02:23:36 OpenAI applied to video games 02:26:00 Unreal Engine 5, hype? 02:31:24 [ForceField] On Henri Bergson 02:32:49 [stef] How do you achieve subconscious artistic expression in game making 02:34:41 [Steven Brent] Videos games better than other mediums for certain emotional expressions? 02:36:45 [Pooja Soni] Video games and helping mental illnesses / adjunct to therapy 02:40:27 [James R] Mind uploading 02:43:31 [Tom] Analytic / rational vs. intuitive / supra-rational  02:45:34 [Chris Merola] Stephen's Sausage Roll is one of the best puzzle games 02:48:42 [championchap] Having aphantasia and designing games 02:49:50 [Brian Mauch] Ask why the industry has gone to "shit"? 02:51:41 [James Jones] On Neuralink 02:53:37 [Johannes Norrbacka] Jai and opinion on other data-oriented languages 02:56:33 [Lara Lebeu] What connects him to non-duality teachers? (because of the Rupert Spira video in The Witness) 02:59:35 We're at a stagnation point in society 03:04:00 [Mr. K] "Yeah: wtf is Kojima working on lol" 03:04:16 [ZenoEvil - Meaning Machines] Why hasn't Braid's success led to copycats? 03:06:31 [Wes Lord] Getting over burnout and other motivational issues 03:08:45 [bc1n0] "Please beta access to Jai? Will pay $100 for access." 03:10:54 [Michael Bespalov] Hades' early access model 03:13:22 How does playtesting work? And how does Jon use it? 03:15:25 [Ivan] Thoughts on state of free speech in the world 03:21:07 Eric Weinstein, Peter Theil, and stagnation (again) 03:26:02 SCRUM? Kanban? What's the work process? 03:29:49 [Ruari VK] Why is it called 'The Witness'? * * * Just wrapped (April 2021) a documentary called Better Left Unsaid http://betterleftunsaidfilm.com on the topic of "when does the left go too far?" Visit that site if you'd like to watch it.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: Glitter + Ashes edited by dave ring Silk & Steel edited by Janine A. Southard  Grace's Links: Website ArtStation portfolio Twitter Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. R: Today we are talking to Grace Fong about book art. Now we've had someone on in the past to talk about cover art and art-directing a commissioned cover. However, I think Colin would forgive me for saying that you do not want Colin to do the artwork. Kaelyn: He would, yes. R: Yes. [laughing] Would you like to introduce yourself? Grace: Hi, I'm Grace! My pronouns are she/her, I work on the narrative design team over at Wizards of the Coast for Magic: The Gathering. I am also a sometimes-writer, and for the past five years I've been doing illustration work for various speculative fiction magazines, such as Strange Horizons, and some anthologies like Silk & Steel and Glitter + Ashes. K: Rekka this is our first like, real artist. R: It is difficult to get an artist on a podcast. I have tried - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - for this podcast and the previous one and it is a tricky business. So Grace, you live up to your name in showing up. G [laughing]: We don't like talking to people, we just like sitting at our computers. R: I completely understand, but doesn't mean I'm gonna give up trying, so. We've finally done it. K: Awesome. So I have been involved in some cover art not as the primary person but as the editor, where I have to look at it and go ‘yeah okay that kinda tracks with what's happening here.' We have talked a lot on this podcast before about what to expect out of your cover art, and how involved the writers are going to be in it, and the answer is typically not very, at all. So, when you're doing this, who is it that you're primarily working with? G: When I do work for magazines and books I'm usually working with the editor of the publication, so for the anthology it's usually an anthology editor, or for a short fiction magazine it is usually the art director of the magazine or the editor of the magazine. K: Can you walk us through the process of how you get started on this? They're obviously not coming to you with a blank slate, they're coming to you with a series of stories that may or may not have a theme. How do you get started working with this editor? G: It really varies, depending on the type of publication. So for anthologies, because they cover a lot of different narrative ground, usually we try to come up with an image that encapsulates the theme of the anthology. Like for Silk & Steel, I was doing one of the promotional postcards for them. We knew we were doing femme-femme, high fantasy, sword-and-scorcery kind of stuff. So I knew that those characters would have to be reflective of the book's content. Sometimes editors will give me a particular story that they aim to showcase for the publication, in which case I'll usually read the story if it's under 6,000 words, and try and come up with a composition that fits it the best that I possibly can. This is how I work with Strange Horizons. K: At what point do you usually come into the process? Are you typically involved right from the get go, or do they kind of wait until they have most of the story material? G: Usually when editors are doing their selections, they will wait until they have the written content first, because the written content is gonna dictate which artist they're gonna go to, to look for. Whose style best captures the feeling of their product? It's actually similar to traditional publication as well. The art directors at major publishing houses usually have a manuscript or summary for new debut authors whose manuscripts are already completed, and then they find an artist based off the existing manuscript. Some covers are completed beforehand, if the publishing house knows the author, knows the brand of that author and knows the kind of proposal or piece they are in the middle of working. K: You're gonna be sitting down with the editor, they're gonna give you a story that they particularly wanna feature, they're gonna give you an overall feeling or theme or - how much creative license do you get? R: I wanna interrupt because you just skipped like a really huge part: the creative brief. K: Yes. R: So what you just said, they're gonna give you a mood, they're gonna give you a theme or whatever, this is a whole step. Don't smooth it over like that. And this is something that actually Grace's got a little bit of a reputation for her knowledge on. So Grace I know you in, I believe it's November, are doing the Clarion workshop about creating a brief for a cover artist, right? G: Yes. R: So let's give this the spotlight it deserves! [laughing] G [overlapping]: Okay. K: Yeah, I've written a couple, I shouldn't have skipped over that, so apologies. G: I mean it's a specialized skill not everyone has to do them, so yeah. R: Well I definitely want to highlight it a bit, ‘cause you helped me with one - G [laughing]: That's true! R: What goes into the creative brief? Kaelyn named a couple of things, and this sort of forms the silhouette around which Kaelyn's question pivots, which is how much creative control do you get as an artist? So what's in the brief that you consider sacred, and what's in the gaps that you get to play with? G: So, that - K: Well first, and I'm sorry to cut you off - I'm sorry - can we say what - [laughing] R [overlapping]: I'm gonna interrupt you back! K: That's fair, that's fair. Can we kind of say what a creative brief is? G: Oh yeah, sure. So essentially when you are starting to work with an artist, an artist does not have the time to read an entire manuscript of 400+ pages. Their pricing is usually based off of the time that they're gonna spend creating your artwork. So you need to provide them with what is known as a creative brief, or art brief. And these are small documents that are very instructional, no more than like a page or two long, that explains the kind of image and feel that you are going for, for this assignment. The assumption is that you would have done your research and sent this brief to an artist that you think would do a good job for the publication that you're sourcing art for. So you're not gonna go to someone who does only black and white work if you want to sell your book with a big, bright, neon, 80s kind of cover. G: ‘Brief' is kind of the keyword here. You're essentially writing instructions for an artist. Don't try to lead them in using prose writing, tell them what they're gonna be drawing. It's a bit like a recipe list. So if it's a story about vampires and you want your vampire main character on the cover, you would specify that that's what you're looking for. Or, let's say you're trying to sell more literary up-market fiction, which doesn't use as many figurative images. Then you would maybe make an explanation about like ‘oh this book is about a woman's time when she was living as a child in Philadelphia.' In which case you would sometimes kind of refine that into a visual or item metaphor that you would ask the artist to render in a specific way that captures the mood and feel of the book, and leverages the imagery that's common to that market, so that it can reach the correct audience. K: Gotcha. Okay. So then you're gonna get this brief, and presumably dig into it. Do you ever receive a section of text, if there's a scene in particular that they'd like illustrated? G: Specific scene commissions tend not to be used for covers, because they're not very good at selling a publication. Scene work tends to be done for interior illustration. So these the the images that go along in the story; you look at these images as you are reading these scenes. But for the front cover you're trying to provide one image that sells the entire mood of the story to a particular audience. So in general you want to avoid using specific scenes, unless that scene comes in very early, because you don't wanna spoil the ending of the book. You only have one picture to play with for a cover, meanwhile with interiors you tend to have a series. You can do like a chapter header, like in the original Harry Potter American versions. K: It's funny you say that, because I was thinking about how I remember when the Harry Potter books were coming out, and there were always the American and the British cover versions, and everyone would be over-analyzing and try to pick apart ‘okay what's in the background here, what's happening in this scene.' But yeah because those covers were all more or less specific scenes from the book. They were a little abstract. G: Exactly, but it's - the keyword as you just said it is that they were scenes but they were abstracted. Actually tapping into that same visual metaphor that I mentioned earlier, for literary up-market, it's just because they're cramming so many things - what they're actually doing is creating one image that forces you to look harder at it to find all of those metaphorical connections with the story inside. If it has the hippogriff on it and the Chamber of Secrets journal and the Goblet of Fire, these are all singular items that you don't actually see in those covers how they relate to the story, but you know that this is an important item in the story. Ergo, which Harry Potter volume this cover revolves around. K: Do you get scenarios where somebody says ‘I want you to draw exactly this and I want it to look like this,' or do you generally give them a few different ideas or rough sketches and then go from there? G: Generally the things that I like to have control over are color palette, camera angle, the stuff that would be considered very technical for an illustration. Perspective. Whether things are shot from above, shot from below, because these are all illustrator tools that help dictate the mood of a painting. And the mood is actually the thing that I usually ask my clientele for. Mood translates to ‘how are we supposed to feel when looking at this?' Because feeling is very closely tied to genre. G: So, what kind of book am I trying to sell? Is it a horror book? That dictates what kind of colors, what kind of camera angles that I'm going to use. But if somebody tells me ‘I want a top-down shot of something-something,' then that feels a bit invasive to me because I feel like if I am an artist then I can select the camera angle to best convey the drama that you're asking for. But the things that are really good for me are the object or character or focus, and if there is a character the kind of action that is being performed. A lot of times we get character description but no action, and the action is actually what tells us what the character is like, and separates it from the design. K: Yeah so you don't just have two characters just standing there looking straight forward at the camera - G [overlapping]: Yeah. K: - dressed the way they told you to dress them. G: Yes. [laughing] Because basically that would be really difficult to create an interesting illustration for. K: Absolutely yeah. [laughing] G: It's kind of like going to the mall and you see the clothes being sold on mannequins. Like it helps sell you the clothes but it doesn't tell you what the story is behind the people wearing the clothes. It helps to have stuff like props, backgrounds, and actions to help convey like, ‘oh yeah if this character is wearing a t-shirt and jeans, is this t-shirt and jeans part of an urban fantasy? Or is it a part of a YA contemporary romance?' K: How much back-and-forth do you generally have with the editors you're working with? Like what is the first thing you give back to them? G: This generally varies per artist, including the artists I work with. So usually what I do is between one to three thumbnails or sketches that I hand in to the editor and ask them ‘what do you think of these directions,' ‘which one of these thumbnails' - which I then proceed to refine - ‘do you think hits the target best?' Then if it's a very large piece of work I might work on a more refined sketch and pass it in, or like base colors and pass it in, and minimally it's usually the thumbnails plus the finished drawing. So that's two to five back-and-forths, depending on the size of the piece. R: How much do you let the art director or editor you're working with go back to the start? I know you probably don't let them past a certain point, like ok you approved the thumbnail so we're moving forward, we're not going back to thumbnails after that, but what if they don't like any of the initial thumbnails? G: Yeah so basically most artists I know have what are called revision fees, and these are generally written into the contracts that you sign upon working with them. Basically saying ‘you get this many thumbnails, you get to give comments this many times, and if you go over those times there'll be an additional fee.' Because artists are basically charging - it's a service-based industry, and your haircutter charges you per hour, and so does your artist. And generally if they aren't happy with the thumbnails, then I would then incur the revision fee, but also I ask for further information. G: So, if you as a writer or editor aren't happy with what your artist is turning back, you need to be able to explain what you're not happy with. So you can explain like ‘oh I don't think this color palette is appropriate for this target market. Here are some images of other books that have come out in the same area that we think would be good inspiration for you.' The only time that revision becomes really frustrating, outside of a timing frame, is when your client says ‘I don't know what I want but I'll know it when I see it.' R: I knew you were gonna say that. [giggling] As a graphic designer I also hate those words. G [laughing]: Yeah. K: It's like okay I guess I'll just keep throwing paint at the wall and see what happens. G: Like revisions aren't bad as long as the client is able to convey what needs to actually be changed. R: Not a series of no-thank-yous. K: Have you ever come across a scenario where you've kind of had to take a step back from the project and say ‘listen, I think maybe I'm not the right person to do this.' G: Usually I'm good enough at heading that off before a project even begins. K [laughing]: Okay! G: That is something you come to with experience, you understand your style, your way of working as an illustrator, and knowing like ‘hey this type of thing is going to be too out of my ballpark,' ‘this type of thing is not gonna pay enough,' ‘this type of thing is just too much work for what I'm capable of doing right now.' That is kind of like you're responsible, as most freelance artists are independent business owners essentially. They'll usually say so up front minus extenuating circumstances. Like at work we've had people drop out because they acquired COVID in the middle of an assignment, so - K [overlapping]: Oh god. G: - there's really nothing you can do about that. [laughing] K [laughing]: Yeah. Have you ever been presented with a commission, talked to the person, and thought to yourself ‘I don't think they have a good enough handle on what it is they're looking for here, and this may just end up being a headache'? G: Yes. That has definitely happened before, ‘cause I don't have much time. So if I feel like the client either lacks the direction and communication to give me what I need, or if they're simply asking for too much, then I will usually politely decline them, within the first couple of emails. K: Obviously you're not reading all of these books and you're working off the creative brief. Is there anything in particular that you get these, you're trying to make sure you're communicating in the feel of the book rather than an exact representation of what's going on there? G: Yeah. So I'm not trying to recreate a 1-to-1 specific moment from the book. I'm trying to generate a piece that, as you said, evokes a major theme. A lot of times I'm asked to do character work, mostly because that is something that I enjoy doing and specialize in; I love character and costume design. Like you've never seen a spaceship in my portfolio because I'm really bad at it. K: I looked through it, I didn't see one. [laughing] G: Yeah, don't put stuff in your portfolio that you are not good at painting and don't wanna paint. Like people come to me because they're like ‘oh this person does kind of anime-inspired fantasy characters,' and so that's kind of like a niche that you can reach other people who like anime-inspired fantasy characters. So things for me that I consider important is, I like to know a character's build and ethnicity. G: Stuff like ‘oh the character's mouth is a Cupid's bow' or like ‘they have eyebrows that are waxed to a certain angle,' that's a bit too specific. Or like ‘they wear ten rings.' Because if you mentioned that the character wears ten rings, it automatically makes those ten rings really important. And you have to wonder, are those ten rings really important to actually selling who this character is? Do those ten rings have a narrative function in the story? If so, do you wanna include the rest of the character, or do you wanna focus on that character's hands and the rings, as a way to say ‘hey this is what this story is about'? Because it's very hard to include such a small item and such a big item together on the same image. There's a lot of physical limitations to representational art; similar as it is, it's really challenging to get a photo with both your shortest friend and your tallest friend at the same time and not have a giant gap between them. [laughing] K [laughing]: Lot of negative space and awkward positions. G: Yeah. R: Well this is where your control over the perspective comes in, right? So that would be a shot from below. K: Or above! Really above. [laughing] G: Yeah. So one of the things that I like to ask for is no more than two or three key items, I would call them, that differentiate who this character is from all the other characters. Like you can say ‘yes, she is a Black woman' or ‘yes, he is a muscular man of European descent.' But Aragorn is defined by Andúril, his sword. Once you stick that sword on Aragorn, you know ‘hey this is a high-fantasy Tolkienesque property.' So I'm looking for a handful of items like that, to help show who this character is and how they differentiate and help sell the genre, setting, and time period. K: Covers are telling people things without explicitly telling them that. Like you mentioned you give Aragorn his sword or a similar character, you're stating ‘hey this is a high-fantasy book.' If there's a background in it and it's castles built into rolling mountains, that's also indicating things to somebody who might be potentially interested in reading it. Do you spend a lot of time or give a lot of attention to trying to signal to potential readers that this might be something they're interested in, or do you kind of let the cover do what it's gonna do? Like how much do you try to work elements into it that are telling you things about the book without telling you things about the book? G: I usually try to focus on having as I said up to three of those key items - K [overlapping] Okay. [laughing] G: - because, as you said, castles are really common in a lot of European-based high fantasy. So you can leverage that castle, change it up, be like oh is it a floating castle that implies that there's a certain kind of magic? Is it a castle that's built into a hillside that implies another sort of magic? And so when I'm doing that I'm not necessarily looking at other pieces that are within the same genre, because the same genre-ness comes from the castle itself. I'm trying not to make a cover that looks exactly like every other cover out there, because this writing is probably not like every other fantasy story out there. K: Mhm. G: I'm actually specifically looking for those key items that differentiate it within its own genre. K: Any good stories, or interesting things that've happened here, your favorite piece that you've worked on or something that was particularly challenging? Maybe not just cover art but any commissions in general? G: All of my really funny stories are actually just from when I was doing random stuff for anime cons. I've had to draw a woman making out with Loki, but the woman is not herself, the woman is Kate Beckinsale. Fandom's strange. R: So you drew Kate Beckinsale making out - K [overlapping]: Making out with Loki - [laughing] G: Yes. R: And let the woman believe it was her? G: There are certain things you simply cannot draw. You cannot draw the flow of time. If you have a single image, it is very difficult to have anything that goes from step one and step two. [chuckling] And convey two images in a single image. K: Those Animorphs covers used to do that. G: That's true. And they had the little flipbooks in the back. K [laughing]: Remember that? G: Yeah. K: What advice would you have for somebody who, like let's say they're going to self-publish, or maybe somebody who hasn't really done this before but is looking to commission a piece of art - what advice would you have for them? G: For prospective clients, I generally ask that they do their research beforehand, essentially. Like working with artists, we have our own system, our own language, essentially, for technical stuff, for our materials, our use of camera angles, our use of colors. And to kind of understand what is within and without our control. So don't expect an art piece to be able to capture your entire story, because your story has some form of linear time in it, which art inherently will not if it's a single image. And that usually requires a lot of trust on the part of new authors, because this is their baby, right, they spent a lot of time on it and they wanna give it nice clothes. K: I love that by the way - G [overlapping]: [laughing] K: - they wanna give it nice clothes, that's perfect. [laughing] G: And like, a lot of us really understand this, but it's really helpful for us if you are to distinguish things that are and are not concrete. If you have a story that's based on music and you want your cover to celebrate the fact that it revolves around song, artists cannot draw a song. Unless you have synesthesia, you're probably not gonna look at a piece of artwork and hear music. So you're gonna have to come up with concrete visuals to convey this. G: So that main character, how do they produce this music? Are they a violinist? In which case yes, a violin can be drawn, that's very clear, very easy. And so just coming up with those small as I say key items, that would probably be one of them. Coming prepared with those and trusting the artist to interpret that - you can always say ‘hey, my book is about song, that is why I'd like to include these items,' but don't throw them into the wind with ‘my book is about songs' and - K: ‘Draw me a song.' G: Yes. K: You had mentioned revision fees, now again a constant theme in this podcast is contracts and read your contract and check your contract. Typically if you're going to engage an artist they're going to sign a contract with you. By the way, if the artist is not interested in signing a contract with you, and this is a custom piece, maybe that's not the artist to work with. But you're going to have a fee schedule, you're going to say ‘okay up front this is how much I'm estimating this to be but there are additional fees and costs for revisions, for changes, for going back.' K: We've definitely had to, with artists we commissioned for covers, go back and say ‘hey listen, something came up and we need another version of this, can you tweak these things?' And that's fine, it's just an additional charge. Is there anything in particular you would say to the people who are looking to commission an artist to just be aware of and expect, so they're not 1) shocked or 2) completely overlook something, in terms of costs associated with this kind of thing. G: Art is skilled labor. K: Absolutely. G: It's gonna vary per artist. Some people work faster, some people work slower. The type of publication is also going to affect the cost. But do not be surprised if an artist asks for a living wage, in terms of hourly money, because this is what they do; it's generally not a side job. K: Art is a skilled work that needs to be paid accordingly. There's a reason you're having to go out and find somebody you need to do this, because it's not an easy thing to do. G: Yeah, you're gonna be looking at prices significantly over part-time retail, because this is full-time work. Artists pay taxes on top of their stuff, and they are in charge of maintaining their own tax books. The high prices also cover their cost of living, the materials, 30% of it automatically goes to taxes, so those rates are going to be relatively high. A lot higher than I think what people expect. I feel like sometimes when people are new to commissioning, they'll expect it to be something in the price range of like ‘hey, I'm asking someone to in their off-time help me out at home with this, etcetera, or babysit my cat.' R: They wanna pay you 20 bucks and an extra pizza. G: Yeah. K: Well they're looking at it in like hourly rates, not realizing that it's not just hourly. Like you said there's taxes, there's material, there's - you don't get something then immediately sit down and start drawing it, you have to read some things, you have to think about it, you have to process, there's a lot of invisible hours that go into this as well. G: Yeah. R: You might spend - random number - 12 hours working on a cover, but that skill that you developed to create that cover is not 12 hours worth of skill-development, that is the lifetime that you have put into being an artist. So if anybody is thinking that ‘well the cover for my book is just a box I need to check off on my way to publication' - G: Yeah and that high hourly rate encompasses the work of emailing back and forth and sending the revisions and all the administrative stuff that the artist has to do. Artists generally do not have assistant teams, and they are not big publishing houses. K: The phone call was two minutes, it took me five minutes to read this thing, and ten minutes to write a response, but all of the stuff in between is additional time. All of your back-and-forth with your artist, all of the discussion that you're gonna have, all of the time that you the artist have to sit and think about this and do some sketches and stop and walk away and collect your thoughts, all of that is your valuable time. R: We've been talking about hourly rates. But every time, in my personal experience, that I've commissioned a cover, I have been given a flat number and then the contract as we've discussed talks about how many revisions or whatever are included in that number. I assume this is the practice of this person doing covers so frequently that they have a general ballpark of what they need to earn to justify what a cover is. But that's still based on a living wage that they're creating for themselves. G: Correct. That's usually it. R: When somebody gives you a flat rate it's not that this is a flat rate and someone else is going to just give you like ‘$85 an hour please.' G: Yeah. K: Well are you calculating your flat rate based on how many hours you, in your experience, know this takes? G: Yes, that's exactly what most artists do. Because clients tend to not want to bill per hour, because it's a single gig, most artists will give a flat rate based off their previous experience of how long something is going to take, which is why when back-and-forth gets too much, we incur revision fees. Because usually the flat rate is based off of our average experience of a client who spends this much time talking with us, and this much is gonna have to go to taxes, etc. And because flat rate is generally easier for clients and billing as well. R: Yeah rather than an open-ended number where they have no idea, and there's probably some paranoia that if you don't know the person well you might just keep billing them for stuff. G: You're gonna find contracts that specify hourly rates for longer term stuff, like visual developments or several character designs, or if you have a world that you're trying to build out for a TTRPG or concept art for a new video game or something like that. But for single one-off jobs, it's usually the artist will give you a flat rate number based off of their estimation on how long the gig will take, which is why sometimes these flat rate numbers look gigantic. But remember, again, that's based off of an hourly rate. R: Now do you ever get an email from a potential client and you go ‘oh yeah I better double the number, based on the way this email is written'? G: Yes that has happened before; the asshole tax is a pretty common practice - K [overlapping]: [laughing] G: - among artists. We are factoring in how long something is going to take as well. K: And by the way along the flat rates and the contracts and Grace I don't know if this is how you typically handle this, but when we would do book covers it was usually half up front, of the flat rate, and half when the work is finished plus any additional revision fees, which for us was always just a like ‘hey here's the down payment if you will to show we're serious and to get started.' Artists put a lot of time into this, and if you say ‘well I'm gonna pay you when this is done' and then they go ‘I don't like it. Forget it. I don't want it anymore,' that's a lot of time and energy that the artist has now wasted for no return. G: Yup. Most artists will not start without half to full payment upfront. I'd say like 95% of them won't. ‘Cause everybody has been burned very early on in their career by somebody who asked for work and never paid for it. So you only let that happen once. [laughing] Yeah. Always be prepared to have the money ready, like half the money ready, before the artist will start working. If you have a relaxed deadline, a lot of artists are really chill about just letting things kind of be like ‘oh I have this email of somebody who's interested' but it doesn't become real and doesn't actually get scheduled until there's money down. K: Artists have schedules. And they have open time slots and things that they might not be able to fit you into. How much of a lead time would you say they need to leave, in order to have a fully completed piece of art ready to go? G: I'd say at the minimum one to two months. I know people that can turn stuff around in two weeks, but if you're looking to get something done in the one month range, you're probably looking at a rush fee. Artists usually keep one to two jobs forward, like they have something but they're working on something lined up, and they usually have maybe another one lined up. And so if you demand something immediately, then that means they have to rush the next two. K: Mhm. G: So usually they will include a rush fee for that. K: I mean essentially it's overtime - G: Yes. K: - at that point, like I'm having to work extra hours outside of my regular schedule so that I can get to your thing faster. G: Yeah. And the lead time will very specifically vary per artist, because if you're trying to get someone who's like super super popular, who has a large number of clients already, you may be waiting like a year or two. Like. [laughing] K: There're science fiction cover artists out there that, like two years, if you want anything from them. Some of those people have incredibly long lead times on these, and their schedules are just full like over a year. G: Yeah. Like for me, I tend to be booked out about four to five months in advance, personally. But I generally, I will do rush fees and I'll also do smaller client pieces here and there that I know I can fit into a weekend. But again it really is up to that individual artist. I know how fast it takes me to complete a piece, but when I have 50 things going on, yeah it might take 20 hours to do, but if I have ten things that all take 20 hours, then I have a lot of time management that I need to figure out. K [laughing]: Yeah absolutely. When you finish a commission, when you finish a piece, how are you getting it to the person who is actually going to use it then and turn it in for the publication? Because a lot of these pieces are, they're very high resolution, they're very large files, and what does this look like - First of all what kind of a file is it, what does it look like? And then 2) how are you getting it, and how do you set it up so that they can manipulate it the way they need? G: So usually for clients I send a flat image, unless a layered image is requested - R: And let the artist know that at the beginning. G: Yes. K: Yes. G: Yes, layered images will usually incur a higher charge, because it implies that you will be editing the image afterwards. And so basically you need to buy some rights, the editing rights, from your artist. So that'll be a higher charge up front, when you write your original contract. Usually because I do a lot of web work, I just deliver a high resolution JPEG, high resolution PNG, and that's fine for my clients. For other major work especially if you need a layered file, PSDs, Photoshop files, are generally the common way to do it. In which case you upload a massive, massive file to a file transfer service such as Dropbox, or a lot of companies often have an internal file transfer upload - you log onto their system and upload directly to their system. K: If you're getting, especially one of those huge high-res layered images, you need to have a program that can manipulate it. You might need something additional on your end to even work with the image then. But also like, these files are huge. Typically they can't just email it to you. There's actually file transfer services as Grace mentioned, where you drop these and it's just in there for like two days. And you've gotta go get the file within that two-day period. G: Yeah. I think for major transfers I generally lean on Dropbox and actually just sometimes Google Drive. They're not exactly super secure, but like - K: [laughing] G: - few very people are going around sneaking your self-pub cover, like. [laughing] They'll just delete it after you've got it. K [laughing]: Well, you never know, Grace. Maybe someday somebody will steal something that you've done and leak it to the public, and - G: That actually would be really bad. [laughing] I work for Wiz of the Coast, if it happens then it's bad. R: Secure FTPs from here on out. [laughing] K: Multi-factor authentication in order to get these files. G: Yeah. R: So Grace, I happen to know, because I am on the inside, that you are - at the time of this episode coming out - you are the guest art director on the next issue of The Deadlands. G: Yes! Yes I am. [laughing] R: So from the other side of the table, how do you go about picking artwork on behalf of who are essentially clients here for their magazine issue? G: Cool. So, for The Deadlands I worked with Cory, who is the main art director, and I looked through the existing repertoire of work that had already been selected for Deadlands publications. Cory was very helpful too in kind of summarizing up the visual style of the magazine, as stuff that's more dark, more photo-real, lots of use of textured work, and I could see it in all the previous selections that'd already gone through. So based off of that, I was using my knowledge of my time in the art community to find pieces that I thought would resonate with that style. G: I was also provided a showcase short story essentially, for that issue, that they thought like ‘hey it would be good if the cover resonated emotionally with this written piece.' So I was looking for stuff that leveraged the visuals within that story, visuals of growth and forestry in particular, goes with a nice visceral story. They gave me the rest of the stories to read too, but as just more background information. And so I went to the portfolios of some of the artists that I knew worked in that kind of emotional field, like artists that did a lot of dark work, artists that do a lot of work in monochrome spaces, and so I looked in their portfolios for work to license that fit the forest-y theme of the showcase story. G: And so I took a couple of pieces that I thought were good, showed them to Cory, Cory showed them to the editor, and we moved forward with one of them. I contacted that artist; they spoke English as a second language so that's another thing you have to watch out with artists, so you have to be very clear and direct in your emails to make sure that you can be understood when your email gets thrown into Google Translate. And then I put Cory in touch with the artist for final contracts and payment. R: This is coming out on September 14th; the new issue of The Deadlands should be out on the 19th, so make sure you check that out, because you will see the cover that Grace picked, and the art that fit into the style, and I happen to know from behind the scenes that everyone was really enthusiastic about your choices. So you made a small mention, but we should probably highlight just a little bit - this is licensed artwork, the artwork already exists, you didn't commission something new, this is a piece that the artist already created either on commission or just as part of their creative process on their own. And so the artwork is available for license, which means that in a limited capacity it can be used again. Can you explain a little bit more about licensing? G: Yeah. So licensing is essentially buying rights to print an image, whether it be like a t-shirt or whether it be like your book cover, and it kinda goes through a separate route than commissioning. So commissioning essentially you are paying for a service, you're paying for an artist's time to make custom work for you. For licensing, it's closer to buying rights, and you're saying ‘I want to pay you x amount for the right to use this image in my piece. And generally artists are pretty lenient about licensing, especially if you are doing a non-exclusive license. It's basically free money for us, like you're paying us for something that we've already created, there's no additional hourly time that we're gonna have to handle other than administrative fees, which are usually more than covered in the licensing. For that you just generally email them and ask them if they have a licensing fee already, or you can generally look for standard licensing fees for products of the same type as yours. G: Most magazines and such will print how much they pay for licensed covers, in part of their artistic submissions and generally you can offer this rate for similar products within the field. When you are commissioning, though, these rights and usages will actually be factored into the contract. For example, if you want to be the only person who can use this work, you want the artist never to sell this work to another licensee, then this will factor into the cost of your original contract. The flat rate that the artist gives you might be higher, because basically you're saying they can't make future money off of it by licensing it to somebody else. ‘Cause copyright-wise, the image I believe is retained with the artist, unless the rights are completely bought out in the contract. Like I believe most contracts are they pay for the work and they pay to license the work, so an exclusive license would be the license fee but higher. R: Kind of like the layered file, like you know that this person wants to own this image and do whatever they want with it, so you kind of charge extra. G: Yeah. I'll charge even higher if somebody is like ‘you can never show this in your portfolio,' like you can't even use this to get more work later. K: I don't understand why anyone would want that. R: Yeah. K: Ok. G: It really has to do with intellectual property NDA-type stuff, so if they're like ‘this is a super-secret project, this is too early on,' ‘cause usually it's like artists get to post in a portfolio once the thing has been released, but if they're worried a project is gonna be canceled and they wanna hold onto the image in case they wanna use it for another project, then that would bar them from putting it in a portfolio. This is more common practice among artists who work in video games and animation, where their projects are constantly like revolving, canceled, there's a lot more asset reuse, yeah. R: Alright so. There [laughing] is a lot of information on licensing, on contracts, on payment structures. Be nice to the artist, ‘cause look at everything they're already balancing. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: So any final thoughts, Grace? Anything we haven't touched on that is a bugaboo for you, that you wanna make sure we warn people or - G: I feel like we've covered a lot. R: - invite people, it can be inviting too. G: I dunno, come to my class November 13th. It's a free business class on how to write effective art briefs. [laughs] R: Yes, that's through Clarion West. G: It'll be through the Clarion West, yes. R: Yeah, so we will put the link to that in the show notes. Hopefully the - is it unlimited spaces, or is it limited? G: There are one hundred spaces, I think like 40 of them are already taken. R: Okay! So by the time this comes out there'll be less than 60 available, so make sure that you go find that link in the show notes for that free workshop, because I think a brief is going to make you as compatible as possible with the person that you commission. Because you wanna make their job easy, so that they don't wanna charge you extra. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: And also so that they still love your project by the time they get to the final artwork. K: Yeah, so they don't have some sort of visceral shudder reaction every time the name of that book or project comes up. [laughing] G: Things also go around. Artists talk to each other, so if you give one a terrible time, then a lot of them will not wanna work with you anymore. K: Yeah this is something not just in art and publishing, but I think most industries - people who work in the same field talk to each other. Artists do not exist in a bubble, they are not all hiding in some dark studio bent over an oil painting that they've been devoting their life to - G: I mean we are. K: Okay. G: But we all just have Discord open on the side. K [laughing]: The room has internet access, yes. Grace thanks so much, this was great. I think this was a lot of really good information that people kinda dipping their toe in the water here may not be aware of, or know how to find easily. But speaking of finding, where can people find you? G: Ah, you can find me on ArtStation, at artstation.com/fictograph. It's like pictograph but with an f instead of a p. That is the same on Twitter, where it's mostly cat photos. K: [laughing] R: Alright we will put those links in the show notes too, so you won't even have to spell anything. Just go find a link, and go find Grace because Grace has a lot of amazing artwork to look at, and also might be the perfect artist for a future project of yours!

Kalling all swingers! LOL Jk but let's talk about it! How are open marriages and relationships operating? What's the modern day twist to these old school ways? along with divulging in the mindsets from individuals who are ok with this type of situation. So tell me, Is it a F*CK yeah or F*CK off for you? Let's be friends

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: Unfettered Hexes Kickstarter Infomocracy Redbubble Shop dave-ring.com neonhemlock.com neonapothecary.com dave is @slickhop on Twitter and Instagram Neon Hemlock Press is @neonhemlock on Twitter and Instagram VOIDMERCH Neon Hemlock's Threadless shop Riddle's Tea Shoppe Hailey Piper Glitter + Ashes anthology Matthew Spencer, illustrator This is How We Lose the Time War Tracy Townsend Dancing Star Press Transcript (by TK) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. R: Let's see what happens if you drape the oracle cloth over top. dave: I have a thousand of those. R [laughing]: Yeah. Kaelyn: Speaking of SWAG. d: Does that help? R: Exhale. d: [wheezing] R: Yes. K: Yes! R: It's not just good for laying your cards out on. K: [laughing] d [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Okay! I'm gonna have to leave this in. d: [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: dave, why don't you introduce yourself to start, and then we'll get going? d: My name's dave ring, I'm a writer and editor of speculative fiction. I'm also the managing editor and publisher over at Neon Hemlock Press. Which comes with a bevy of other, like graphic design layout, and - K: [laughing] d: - products, placements, whatever else I've come up with lately! K: Many, many other hats in different shapes and sizes. R: So the reason I wanted to have dave on the podcast was because it occurred to me that something that comes up pretty frequently, especially around conference season when we're meeting in person and around book launches as well, is that authors wanna know like ‘do I need a bookmark? How do I do a bookmark? What else can I do?' K: ‘Do I need swag?' R: Yeah, so swag. Swag - Kaelyn, I'm just gonna cut in to your definition and say that swag is an acronym for Stuff We All Get. So - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: To that point, this is not going to be all free swag. K: Yes. R: Swag implies that it is free, that you'll pick it up as you visit the author's signing table, or that you'll get it in the mail for preordering, or some little bonus bit like that. The person that we are speaking to today has taken book tie-in items and - what would you wanna call it? I don't wanna say paraphernalia, but I love that word, so there. You've taken it to a whole new level. And a lot of it has to do with Kickstarter, would you blame Kickstarter for this? d: Maybe some of it. And I like paraphernalia, the word that I am often drawn to is ‘ephemera,' but I like both. Depending on the particular object, maybe one is more appropriate than the other. But I blame Kickstarter for a lot of things in terms - R [overlapping]: [laughing] d: - of connecting with a lot of the people who are buying the books that Neon Hemlock's been putting out. R: So it's hard to say ‘blame' in that sense. d: To [unintelligible] - blame. K: [laughing] d: Yeah. But some of that's been driven from that, and some of it's been driven from just sort of nerdish excitement over different things. And then because I'm the one in charge, no one says no to me, so - K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: I just keep having ideas and doing the thing! K: Let's talk about some of the different kinds of swag, of paraphernalia, of - oh I just lost the word now - ephemera! I didn't really know that book swag was a thing until I started going to conferences. Like obviously I've been to book signings and things, and there's like bookmarks and maybe a pencil or something that they give out. K: But then I'd get to these conferences and I was like ‘wow there's a lot of stuff that authors are handing out, or publishers' - like everything from those bookmarks, pins - enamel pins are a big thing. I've seen people that showed up with special printed editions of the book that they only had like 10 of them and they were just handing them out at the conferences and that was it. If you didn't get them there, you were never gonna get this. It's interesting that this is something that comes around books, because you think well the thing you get out of this is the book. Why does the book have accessories that come with it as well? But I think you kinda hit the nail on the head, this nerdy-dorkiness of like ‘I love this so much I want to be able to have it with me at all times, not just on my Kindle.' d: Book lovers are already in this spot where you can - maybe you've read the book on your Kindle, but you want to have the physical book as well. So there's already that feeling that people have, and then sometimes it sort of extends to further things. Like I remember Dancing Star has made a lot of beaded earrings that match the covers of their books and some other popular speculative books. Of course you don't need to wear a particular pair of earrings in order to enjoy a book, but there is something sort of satisfying about - R: When you really enjoy the book, and then suddenly you need the earrings. d: [chuckling] K: Look at anything from TV shows to movies to video games, like there's all sorts of things that we wear and little accoutrements that we have that's sort of like a signal nod-and-wink to somebody else that's like, ‘ah yes, I also like that thing.' I was wearing a pair of my Sailor Moon socks recently at a house party and I'd taken my shoes off, and somebody was like ‘is that Sailor Mercury on your socks?' I was like ‘it is, yes. Yes.' R: And that's how you know your people. K: Exactly. Yeah but it is this thing of like, that's one of the - it's a signal, it's a secret language of how we identify each other. R: And this is speaking from more like the fan side of why you would want to display these things, in whatever way they are meant to be displayed, whether they're earrings or whether they're a pin, whether they're a sticker, a patch, something. I know that when I first started thinking of swag, I was thinking of things I have to give away for free, that are going to keep me in mind in a potential reader who isn't ready to pick up the book or not in a position where they can buy the book. R: Like I meet someone in a coffee shop and we're waiting for our coffee and we end up talking and somehow it comes up that I'm a science fiction writer and they wanna know about it. If I carry bookmarks in my purse, it's a book-related item, and it can have the sales copy on the back of the bookmark, or a blurb from another author promoting the book. And then you have some of the cover art on the other side and the title and my name, and therefore they have everything they need to find me later. And, if nothing else, they've got a bookmark that maybe they'll hang on to, ‘cause the art's cool, and then later they find it and they go ‘oh yeah,' and it's kind of like putting my branding in front of them multiple times. Every time they come across it, it might be one step closer to them buying the book. R: So that's one thought I had and why I chose bookmarks, ‘cause 1) they're relatively cheap, paper is or at least was a relatively cheap material, and so if your swag is made of paper it's not a huge upfront investment. You can maybe get 500 bookmarks for $75 or something depending on your printer. Book swag seems to have really - K: Oh the game has been stepped up. R: Yeah. I remember Tracy Townsend giving out little plastic-covered notepads with a pen built in, neat little binder, and I still have it by my bed. So I can't imagine that that was anywhere near the price of a bookmark. There's gotta be a level at which we go ‘okay this cannot be free anymore.' And some of that is related to the publisher, like is the publisher funding some of this? R: This Is How We Lose the Time War had pins, and they were giving them away with proof of preorder, and you picked your side, red or blue, and you got the pin. But the publisher I believe, and I may be incorrect, it may have been self-funded, but - the impression I got was that the publisher was providing those. And so I'm curious, ‘cause dave, you charge for some things, and some things are thrown in the box when you send out something. So like between stickers, bookmarks, and whatever else, what's your thought process of where it becomes a merchandise item versus a promotional item? d: Hm. You're making me think I need to have a thought process. R: Sorry. [laughing] K: [laughing] d: No I mean anything that's more than a couple dollars to make usually is in the… either I bundle it with something else or it's charged for on its own. Maybe one thing that slightly is confusing is I have this thing called Club Serpentine, where folks sign up ahead of time for everything I published in a given year, and those folks I give all the swag to for free basically, so. But in other cases like these tarot altar cloth-slash-bandana, depending on your perspective, slash microphone dampener - K: [chuckling] d: - those, I'm gonna give those away to the authors in Unfettered Hexes but I'm gonna also sell them on the website. And then like, I made an oracle deck, which is similar to a tarot deck, for Unfettered Hexes, and we're using the interior illustrations from the anthology as part of that deck. So again I'm giving those away to the authors but everyone else is paying for them. And there's a, I'm calling it an oracle coin, but there's a coin that also goes inside that deck, that comes with the deck, but otherwise you can also buy it separately. d: So the writers or folks that are part of Club Serpentine are getting things for free as it were, but they've either written a story for me or they've invested. So it's not really for free, it's still being part of the project in some capacity. Whereas stickers for me maybe is where the line is drawn. Stickers, I just like making them, there's a website I pay attention to that every once in a while will list a 50-stickers-for-20-bucks, and so I just get those every time it comes up so that I can dish them out like candy. R: They are very much like candy, I have quite a few stickers from both Neon Hemlock and Neon Apothecary. d: We like stickers, yeah. [chuckling] Especially when they make the luminescent ones, we're like yeah we like that deal! We like those a lot. K: [laughing] d: Maybe Rekka's right and it's also like Kickstarter campaigns because with the most recent novella campaign, I was like ‘oh I wonder if I can incentivize folks to back us on the first day.' So I had what I was calling Launch Day Loot, which I commissioned this artist I work with a lot, Matt Spencer, to make a print of a character from each of the novellas, and so I'm sending that to everybody and I also used that print to make bookmarks as well, out of pretty paper. d: So I am slightly regretting this, because it means that I can't use my fulfillment center to do book shipment, it means I have to mail them all myself. So I'm surrounded by piles over here on my side. So those are the first time I actually thought, these are like swag in the traditional sense, like this is free stuff that I'm gonna give you if you buy it on a given day. Whereas the stickers nobody actually expects those, I just have been getting them and sending them to people. K: Nobody expects the book stickers. … Monty Python? No? Okay. d: [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: It made me think of the ‘Nobody's gonna know.' ‘They're gonna know.' ‘No one's gonna know!' K [overlapping]: [laughing] ‘No they're totally gonna know!' So let me ask this then, this is a lot of work, this is a lot of effort. Why do you do it? Apart from [laughing] - R: That's a nice smile, dave. d: [laughing] K: Yeah for those listening at home, dave has a lovely smile on his face right now. Yeah it's - completely, for joy, for getting things out there that show people enjoy your books and what you publish, that I think is fantastic. I'm sure it's delightful to run into somebody who's got something, a sticker or a bookmark or something from one of your publications or something that you did a special run of, but - How do you think it benefits not just you as a publisher, but then also authors? There's like you, who you're gonna do it on behalf of what you're publishing, or authors, who might do it on their own behalf. Why would you recommend book swag? d: I don't know that I have a metric or anything that would say that they categorically increase sales by x percentile or anything like that. But there is a sort of impression that I have that, just folks get excited by stuff? And giving people something to be excited about feels nice. There's something especially about writing where it often doesn't have a physical form that often, so. Like yeah you have a cover you can point to sometimes. Short stories often don't have their own art. It's nice giving things physical shape. K: I agree. Yeah. d: Like I'm not making a fortune over here making bandanas, I haven't become a bandana empire quite yet - R: It'll happen. K: Give it time, give it time. d: Maybe next year. R: [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: So what was your progression? Did you start with stickers and then you just sort of said ‘oh I could also do this, and then I can also do this, and I can also do this,' and now you have oracle decks and bandanas and coins. d: Honestly, Unfettered Hexes, this anthology has really fed all of my most rabbithole impulses. Because it's all related to witchery, it's really - like the accessories are great - Any time I think of one it's hard to say no to. We went for an enamel pin, more than 40 illustrations in the book - These tarot cloth, the oracle deck, the coin, I think I stopped there. Well I made stickers, too. And then I made these mini prints from the cover, so. Part of it is I can't get out of my own way, and I just keep making things. And part of that too, maybe because I've got the interest both in the editing side and in the design side, there's no one here to tell me otherwise. I just keep making up - R: But you are working with artists for pretty much every little item that you come up with. d [overlapping]: Yeah. I do the design part but I don't do the illustrations. R: Right. d: Yeah. R: So the oracle cloth in front of you has some line art illustration, the coin itself I assume needed to be 3D - d: Oh the coin I made actually though. R: Okay. d: But I designed that with someone who then 3D-ified it. R: Yes. d: That's the technical term. R: It is. [chuckling] Yes. So you say you don't get out of your own way. I do wonder, do you go to any sort of ledger and say ‘Can I do this, with the budget I have?' d: Oh no. R: [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: No. R: That gets in the way of the joy. d [laughing]: Yeah I only work with feelings, I don't work with numbers. R: [chuckling] d: No but two-thirds of these ideas are during an active Kickstarter, and I'm saying I'll do it if I reach this goal. So there was some math there. We just barely hit the oracle deck stretch goal. Because we hit $12,000, and then I said we wouldn't do the deck unless we had $18,000 and then we did, so. Whereas before I had lots of little stretch goals. R: Yeah the oracle deck is not a small project, as you said. Lots and lots of illustrations. Now if you hadn't gone with the oracle deck, were you still going to have the interior illustrations or were those the same item? d: Well, no they were different. So Matt Spencer, who did the illustrations for the oracle deck, he was on board to do some interior illustrations, but it was probably going to be like a chapter heading, maybe a couple of spot illustrations here or there, like we had a few things worked out. R: Mhm. d: And then once we hit the oracle it was like hey, what if instead, we just use every single one of these. R: [laughing] d: And you don't do the other illustrations. K: Since we've mentioned it a few times here, can you explain what the oracle deck is in relation to, and why you ended up making these cards? d: Sure, so an oracle deck is like a tarot deck. Rather than being a set number of suits and major and minor arcana, it has however many cards you decide. So we made this deck to go alongside the stories from an anthology called Unfettered Hexes: Queer Tales of Insatiable Darkness. K: A certain podcast co-host here may or may not have contributed to that. d: Yeah, and as my penultimate story in the anthology. R: I'm happy because I also love the world ‘penultimate.' K: [chuckling] d: I'm actually not 100% sure because after, you're technically the last story, but then there's a poem after you. So you're the penultimate… K: Entry? d: Entry? Mm, yeah… [thinking noises] R: Hmm… K: Contribution? d: But you have two illustrations, right? R: Yeah. d: You've got both your oracle card one and then a two page color illustration. R: Somebody's playing favorites here and I love it. K: [laughing] d: I - y'know, we could say that. But also, it's a really good story, and it perfectly hit one of the themes I really wanted from the book, which was basically friendship in space. [chuckling] K: [chuckling] d: It just nailed it perfectly, and so it was a perfect tie-in for the end of the anthology. So I couldn't resist making all these pictures of it. R: I appreciate your inability to resist your impulses. d: [laughing] R: It has served me well! d: [unintelligible] R: So the oracle cards, as you said there's - what is it, 23? 24 stories? d: Ah, don't make me say a number right now. I think we just totally made it up - R [overlapping]: Okay. I - d: We'll say 24. And then… yeah, 24 that are directly inspired by the stories themselves, two each for each of the story games that are in the book, four related to the characters on the cover, and then four related to different Neon Hemlock themes. I don't know if this is that interesting, sorry. K: It is! No, it is. d: [laughing] R: You broke my math brain, so I was trying to follow along and get the total. d: I told you, I don't do numbers. R [overlapping]: Yeah, okay - d: So if those don't add up to 40, just - R: 92! Got it! Okay. K: [laughing] d [laughing]: Just roll through it! R: Yeah. So you commissioned all this artwork. You had an artist create individual, unique pieces for you. You also have the cover, you also have two interior color illustrations. I have also seen chapter art designs, a textured placeholder page. I think you said this is like 200 pages longer? d: It's a beast, yeah. R: Compared to Glitter + Ashes - d [overlapping]: Glitter + Ashes, yeah. R: - it is. d: It's like 160 pages longer. K: Wow. R: But it really seems like a project that came out of great enthusiasm, which is delightful. d: Yeah, glee, even. It's just - [chuckling] So we'll see if - I don't even know if I can recreate this excitement with a future project, ‘cause it just has been really exciting. Although, my problem with making things is already going further with - I won't tell you the exact - K [overlapping]: Oh no. d: - nature of it. K: Oh no! [laughing] d: But the next one will involve 3D printed figures. K: Wow. R: Oh my gosh. d: So we're already going out to left field again. R: Yeah. K: Okay. R: You can't not outdo yourself. It's like every published book is a stamp in history, and you look back and you go ‘Pfft, that guy. [scoffing] I can beat that.' d: [chuckling] R: So given everything you've learned, having gone through these processes, for sourcing objects that are not typical - like, okay, a lot of authors could probably tell you where to go to find somebody who will make an enamel pin for you. But a bandana, for example, or oracle cards, a printed coin. You've obviously had to figure things out, do some research on your own, and get creative about things. d: I also had to marry a chandler. R: That's true! And we all appreciate that sacrifice. [chuckling] d: [laughing] R: I have a lot of Neon Apothecary candles around me just so you know. d: I just needed to make sure I could lock that down for future projects. K: [laughing] R: Yeah there are candles to coordinate with the stories in Glitter + Ashes, in the novella series that you put out. Aside from ‘there's no reason you can't do anything' - you can't use that as the answer - what advice do you have for somebody that's into all this left field kind of paraphernalia and ephemera, and wants to do something for a book? Either as a self-published author, an author that's promoting their work and it's all on them versus the publisher contributing to this, or to a small press, or even a Tor.com? What words of sage wisdom would you pull from your oracle cards to give them? d [laughing]: The new moon would tell us that - K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: Well, I think it's about scale, right? So I've definitely looked up different projects and then realized that they weren't feasible for me based off of my maybe modest scale. Depending on the project I'm looking to make like 100, 300, or 1,000 units of something, right? Which is small beans for a lot of projects. But, it's also far too many for some others. So like one writer, Hailey Piper, she just put out a horror novella. And her press did a limited-edit, handbound version that you could preorder at not a cheap price. d: But they only made those for those preorders, and then they're not gonna make any more. And that's something that, I know a local press in Baltimore that's since folded, but they handbound all of their special editions too. And that's something that is pretty special, and when you have it you know that you're only one of 20 that has one, so something like that could be an option for people. I think handcrafted things in small batches can be pretty meaningful. K: I have some experience with that, and yes. [laughing] d: Maybe you have to do it via raffle or some other way, maybe it's not a mass-produced thing. With the bandanas I had to price four or five of them, and the first three were like ‘what is this question you're asking? ‘Cause you're not really asking this very well.' [chuckling] K: [laughing] R [overlapping]: [laughing] d: And eventually I figured it out, and then took the price from one and brought it to the more ethical company and asked them if they'd match it and things like that. If anyone ever wants to reach out to me and hear about how I made a particular product I'm happy to talk people through it. With enamel pins, Juli Riddle of Riddle's Tea Shoppe walked me through that at every step of the way. The candles, again, the husband, so I cheated that. R: [chuckling] K [overlapping]: [laughing] d: And the coins I can talk to people, it's all just sort of been shots in the dark. Reaching out to people and then either asking dumb questions or having someone who already asked them tell me the way to do it so I can get through them. R: It's a lot more communicating with people who have done something similar figuring out how you would do this thing, as opposed to like pick your merchandise and upload your graphic. d: That's what I meant about scale, too. Like the minimum number of coins I can make is a thousand, you know? R: Yeah. K: Yeah. d: So you can't do that on a whim, right. So there's different mediums that are harder. Although it's funny, I realized I'm wearing my fictional show t-shirt that's based off of fictional bands in a novella that I published. K and R: [laughing] d: And I have that available through Threadless, which is sort of like halfway between those swag sites and a custom thing, where it feels kinda nice but it is an image that I uploaded and put on there. K: I mean I remember when I did vests. Just to buy the vests is expensive, but we ordered just one, because I just wanted to make sure this was not gonna look like garbage before I ordered 200 of them. And I had to convince the manufacturer to just make one. He's like ‘you know it's gonna cost like $50 to make this one vest, then plus you need to buy the vest?' I'm like ‘yeah that's fine, I'd rather spend $70 now and have it not look right than spend 5,000 down the road and it's terrible.' d: A lot of places now will give you a cheaper deal for - I can't think of the right word, it's not prototype, it's similar. R: Like a proof? d: Proof, thank you. Yeahyeahyeah. Like with coins they charge you for the molds either way. So those start already at like 300 or 400 bucks, depending on the kind of thing. Whereas at least with bandanas, they didn't do a proof for me there, but they can do a really nice mockup ‘cause it's only one color. And they will sort of make sure that you know that bandanas are not perfect squares, and - R [overlapping]: Yes. d: - and your image will be slightly off, those little kinds of things to make sure that you understand. K: Have there ever been any pitfalls you've come across, anything where you're just like ‘oh my God, this is not at all what I should've done here,' and can you look at things now and go like ‘ah yes, I have come across this problem before, I should go down a different path'? d: I mean… yeah? But also, even when you think you've got something figured out completely, like I just had a miscommunication with my printer where they didn't get my proof approvals, and two of my books are like three weeks late. So… things will happen either way, I think it's more getting a sense of timelines and knowing that you don't need something ready two weeks beforehand, you need it ready like a month and a half beforehand at least, so that then you're building in a little bit more buffer. Always build in more buffer. K: Anything that you've ordered or tried to design or something and got it and gone like ‘this is not at all what I wanted this to look like, or what I expected it to look like,' or? You seem like you're pretty methodical and thorough along the way. d: Oh, oh no. No no no. K: [laughing] d: I have a box full of ruined prints where they - even though I proofed an image that was fully spread, they sent me one that was with four inches of white space on every side. And then you just have to email them and say ‘this isn't like my proof' and so, even when you think you've got things figured out they still can kinda get screwed up. R: So you mentioned scale, and there are, just to name the ones that come to mind are CafePress and Redbubble, that you have the option to create one-offs, or to create a store without putting in any overhead other than the time to set it up. So that is an option, but it doesn't create that immediacy of like ‘I'm going to send this to you as a special treat,' or ‘this is part of our relationship as author and reader or publisher and reader,' so it allows you to create things without having to go through printers, without having to go through all the proofing processes. I mean you might wanna order one for yourself anyway just to make sure, ‘cause some of those shirts, the printing quality on them is better or worse depending on the fabric, but - K: Some of the fabric is better or worse too. [laughing] R: I mean there are options for people who don't have the ability to invest a little bit up front, or a lot up front. d: Well that was how I started using Threadless artist shops, because I had like three or four shirts from Void Merch - I don't know if y'all know them - and then I was like wait, they're making these on Threadless artist shops. And I commissioned like a metal band version of my logo for Neon Hemlock, and I was like I want this on a shirt! And like at this point I feel like 60% of my wardrobe is Neon Hemlock tank tops, so. I'm not only a client, I'm also the president. K: [laughing] R: Yeah. d: Yeah. R: Yeah so I mean there are ways to do this from small to large, you can put up a CafePress shop. I have actually, I forget who I saw recently was putting up merchandise online through one of these print on demand shops, and people were getting excited - oh it was Malka! Malka Older. Dr. Malka Older. She had Infomocracy related t-shirts and coffee mugs and all that kind of stuff and people were like ‘what! Where's the link?!' and getting excited about it on Twitter. I'm sure that resulted in a few sales. R: And then there's printing or having your own SWAG made, and you take it to a conference and you hand it out as part of rubbing elbows with the readers and the book-signing group kind of thing. And then there's Kickstarter rewards where you kinda have to - I don't know who started the stretch goals, but you gotta love them but you also kinda wanna hunt them down and throttle them. Because now people go ‘well this is exciting! But they're out of stretch goals, so I guess they're happy now and they don't want any more money for their campaign.' d: I think that's like a fundamental misunderstanding with Kickstarter though. Like I've had plenty of people, like I've sent them a link to a Kickstarter and be like ‘oh well you made your goals, so you don't need me to pre-order.' And it's like ‘but I'd still really like it if you did!' K: We could use more money. [chuckling] R: If you support this now, you won't forget to buy it later when it comes out. d: Well it also means you have the money to print it beforehand - R [overlapping]: Yeah. d: - which is pretty critical. R: Yeah, exactly. ‘Cause dave's books are very well produced, they are not POD one cover texture, they are not the typical POD interior pages either, like the paper quality is - dave is hand-selecting these things, and proofing them, and showing them to his friends in the morning writing Slack. K: [laughing] d: We do a lot of show and tell. R: We had show and tell this morning, it was great. d: I keep trying to see if people can see like, can you tell it's embossed? R: [laughing] K: [laughing] R: So there's lots of stages. I don't want anyone to feel pressured to generate oracle coins right out of the gate. d: But I'd buy them. R: But dave's ready to buy them, along with your band t-shirts. [chuckling] And if you want inspiration, just check out the Kickstarter stretch goals for Neon Hemlock, the tie-in merchandise for the anthologies that he does. And it's always nice and cozy to think of a publisher that is enjoying the stories as much as the readers will, and feeling inspired by them to create stuff, and then having the authority for that to be official stuff is also really cool. But yeah, an author, a publisher, small press - K: It's very doable. It just depends on how much you wanna do. R: How much you feel comfortable doing what you're excited to do, and if you're not excited by a thing I would say don't do it. K: Yeah. Definitely. ‘Cause it's not gonna get better once you start. R: And it's not cheaper if you don't love it. d [chuckling]: And like I said, if anyone ever has questions about how to get started and wants to reach out, I'm happy to at least give you the initial walk-through. K: Well along those lines, dave, where can everyone find you? d: Neon Hemlock's at neonhemlock.com, and also just neonhemlock all one word at all the socials. And then my personal Twitter would be, it's SlickHop. S-l-i-c-k-h-o-p. Oh and I'm at dave-ring.com. R: So thank you dave so much for coming on! d: Thanks for having me. R: And all those links will be in the show notes in the transcript and everything. K: Check out dave's upcoming projects, ‘cause Rekka is in a couple of them. R: That's not the only reason to do it though. There's a lot of people - I am - d: [laughing] K: Absolutely not the only reason. R: I am thrilled to be on this table of contents. It's a very good table of contents. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: And the oracle deck I cannot wait to hold in my hand, I cannot wait to spill it out over this bandana which is actually an altar cloth, and flip that coin, and all the good stuff. I am really looking forward to seeing all these things that you've teased on camera in person, and I can't wait to see how you're gonna top it for the next anthology! d: Aaaaaah! Pressure! K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Well with the 3D figures that you've already - d: These are secrets! No one tell anyone, that's a secret. R: Okay we won't tell anyone, we promise. d: [laughing] K: Everyone who listens to this, you're not allowed to tell anyone. d: Shhhhh. R: Forget everything you heard. Except the good advice. K: Yes. R: Alright. d: And maybe my website. R: Yes. dave-ring.com, neonhemlock.com, and, hey! neonapothecary.com while you're out there. d: True. R: Give that chandler his due. d and K: [laughing] R: We will have a new episode in two weeks, and in the meantime you can find us at @WMBcast, you can find us at Patreon.com/WMBcast, and you can leave a rating and review on your podcast apps because we basically exist to breathe those in and smell the scents and not be creepy about it at all. K: That's a candle we need. R: Rate us highly please, and we will talk to you next time. Thanks everyone for listening!

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: The Dancing Plague of 1518 MICE quotient The House of Untold Stories  storyenginedeck.com/demo deckofworlds.com Peter on Twitter and everywhere   Transcript (by TK) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] Rekka: This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. We Make Books Episode 66 Transcription Kaelyn: We're talking about tropes today, which is something that I think a lot of people hear spoken about in a negative context: falling back on using too many tropes, or stories following really common tropes. Rekka: And we don't appreciate that kind of shaming. K [laughs]: No, we certainly do not trope sh--see this is gonna be a problem because I was doing research for this and the word ‘trope' is difficult to say over and over again. R: Trope, trope, trope, trope, trope. K: It's, what do they call that, when a word becomes a sound? Semantic satiation. R: Yes. K: Yes. The word ‘trope' has become more of a sound to me and it's sort of lost meaning [laughing] at times but--So quick definitions, there's the actual word ‘trope' comes from Greek, because of course it does, it all does-- R: You mean it isn't a contraction of tightrope? K: It should be, that would be so much better. R: [laughs] K: A literary trope is using figurative language, like words, phrases, images, for artistic effect. So there's a bunch of different kinds of tropes that fall under literary tropes. Things like metaphors, irony, allegory, oxymorons; those are all considered tropes. Hyperbole is another good example of that, really over-exaggerating. The way this came about was, apparently, because it is Greek and it's from Greek theatre, of course, ‘to alter, to direct, to change, to turn'--all of these translations kinda line up with that, but they're considered an important element of classical rhetoric. Especially in Greek theatre where it was very dialogue-heavy, and so you had to sort of use all of these words and everything to paint a picture to explain to the audience what was going on. All of that said, we're not really here to talk about literary tropes today. They're an important story-telling device, though, and they're something that is considered, I would say, necessary to higher literature and writing and if you're panicking going ‘oh my God, I don't know all of this stuff'--well the thing is you're probably doing this anyway and not realizing. R: A lot of writers don't come from writing backgrounds and don't know the terms for the thing, don't stress too much about it. K: We're talking today primarily about story tropes. I think a lot of times you're gonna encounter this in a negative light. It's a frequent criticism I feel like that's leveraged especially against fiction, especially against fantasy and science fiction books and writing; in some areas of fiction it's actually celebrated. R: Right. K: You pick which trope you're gonna write. R: You cannot proceed without mentioning the other half of that, which is that some people are like ‘Okay, I pick my books based on the tropes I wanna read about.' K: Yes. R: Like, ‘Where's my time travel?' K [laughs]: Yeah. We wanted to talk about why that is. We wanted to talk about what story tropes are, and why they're not necessarily as bad and, in our humble opinions-- R: Not so humble. K: --not so humble opinions, as everyone thinks they are. So, definition: what is a story trope? It's a commonly used plot or character device, essentially. A story trope is something that shows up in literature and stories over and over again, to the point that it may actually be a subgenre within a broader genre. R: That's not to say it is an entire plot of a book that shows up over and over again, like the Hero's Journey is not necessarily a trope. K: No. R: The smaller pieces of plot or character might be the trope. Like the farmboy would be a trope. K: Yeah, the farmboy is a trope. The surprise hero is a trope. R: Prophesied one. K: Yeah, the prophesied one; time-travel to go back and reset the future, that could be a trope. The noble outlaw-- R [overlapping]: Right. K: --is a good trope, the secret relative, the-- All of these elements and story parts that are things you just see all the time in books. So if you're going ‘well, I like those'-- R: Right. K: Like yeah, of course you do! R [overlapping]: Yeah. K [laughing]: That's why they're popular! That's why these keep coming up. Anything from like, a secret legacy or an unknown lost child, unfound powers that suddenly appear at just the right time, or anyone being secretly special for some reason. R [overlapping]: [giggles] K: But these are part of what make stories fun. They're not the larger plot, they're the elements that make up the characters and the plot. R: And you can use them like spice in a recipe-- K [overlapping]: [laughs] R: --to come up with something that is entirely your own but tastes familiar and pleasing. K: Yeah. Now obviously, different genres are going to have different tropes that you see recurring in there. So before we get into why tropes are good, let's talk a little bit about why they're frequently seen as a negative. R: I have feelings about this. K: Okay. R: I think they're frequently seen as a negative because if you come to lean too heavily on tropes, they can make your story feel either derivative or predictable. K: I was gonna say contrived, yeah, but same. R: Don't you ever say that about one of my stories, Kaelyn. K: I would never say that about one of your stories. If you're leaning too heavily on tropes, if you're just pulling things that you know are popular or cool things you read in other books that you went like ‘oh wow that's awesome, I wanna write something like that,' you're almost not writing a story. You're putting together a sequence of events and characters that you liked from other things. R: Is that fanfiction, is that what you're implying? K: Ohhh, oh, there's a--God, I'm not ready to wade into that question! [laughs] R: But we should touch on the fact that tropes are major fanfiction fuel. Sometimes that's the entire point of the piece, is that ‘take this trope and apply it to this IP that I love.' K: Yeah. R: In that case, that can be the goal. To be, not that contrived but obviously, specifically derivative--not in the negative sense of the term, but like you're writing fanfiction, it is derivative of this IP, and you're applying this trope to it because you just think that would be fun. So people can have fun with it. K: Absolutely. R: And not for the right reasons, but it might feed into this impression that tropes are derivative or contrived. K: I think also it goes to storytelling abilities. If your entire book is just laden with secret Targaryens and lost bloodlines and magic powers nobody knew about, chosen ones and prophecies and it's just the entire story is that, it's probably not a great story, because it doesn't sound like there's a lot of room in there for character development and arcs and intricate and original plots. R: Having said that… K: Or, wait, other direction: it may be way too complicated. Because that's a lot of stuff to juggle. R: Well there's that, yeah. Having said that, I don't think you could say that there is a restrained amount of troping in something like Gideon the Ninth. K: No. No, absolutely not. R: So it can be done. K: Here's the thing. That story is set in such an original setting with such original characters, in original worldbuilding and magic system if you will, that I think it more than makes up for all of that. That's just my opinion, ‘cause you know Rekka and I can't get through an episode without referencing Gideon the Ninth and using that as an example of-- R [overlapping]: I think there's one or two. K: [laughing] R: But specifically when you talk about things that are trope-based, or fandom-based, I think you have to acknowledge that there is always an exception to this ‘be careful around fanfic,' or ‘be careful around tropes.' Like ‘don't put too many in'--or! Put them all in! K [laughs]: It's I think a matter of knowing how to use them. I don't think a lot of writers set out with the intention of ‘I am going to write to this trope,' it's just something that happens. R: Although I think a lot of tropes have inspired anthologies. ‘I want this kind of book, I want an anthology full of that kind of story.' K: Yeah. R: And it's one or two tropes smashed together, or it's a trope applied to a certain genre or character type. I think it's happening a lot, where people are looking for a way to find joy. And tropes really are like candy. K: So let's talk about that. Let's talk about why tropes are good, why these things that show up in every story show up in every story--it's because they're fun! R: It's also really good marketing. K: Yes. R: It's a lot easier to come up with comp titles when you're pitching a book if everybody's drawing from a fairly reasonably sized pool of tropes. K: Let's be clear here. These things can go in cycles. I remember a few years ago everyone was retelling or reinterpreting old fairy tales. I felt like that was just something I saw all the time. I will call that a trope, more or less, that is something that speaks to a specific reader and something that somebody's gonna wanna pick up, like ‘oh well I really liked when this person did it, I'm gonna try this book now as well.' R: So that speaks to what you said earlier about them becoming like a niche genre. K: Yeah, absolutely. Young adult fiction, especially within science fiction and fantasy, I think is constantly at the mercy of whatever trope is popular at the time. YA definitely fell to the fairy tale retelling trend at some point; YA books with a central character, usually a young woman or older teenage girl, who was not necessarily a prophesied champion but has to save everyone on her own even though she doesn't want to; science fiction, there's everything from time travel to artificial intelligence to very specific kinds of space battles and things, but! It speaks to a certain reader. K: There are these things that create these subgenres, and that's really helpful for readers, because I think what we're skirting around that nobody wants to say is, you don't want to put readers in a position where they're just reading the same story over and over, but I know a lot of people who just like to read the same story over and over. People who are very into romance novels. R: There're definitely a set of tropes that romance novels have to pick from, just like there are tropes that other genres have to pick from, and when you read a book that you really love, and romance often tickles a specific audience, they want more like that. Think of the first Thor movie where he tries coffee and he says “I like this beverage. Another!” and smashes it down on the floor-- K [overlapping]: Yes! [laughs] R: People will smash their books down on the floor and demand another because they read through it so quickly and it was exactly what they wanted, and they want to feel that feeling again. Just with new characters. K: I'm gonna qualify all this by saying none of this is a criticism of the romance genre. Romance writers a lot of times write to specific tropes: the marriage of convenience, or the marriage of ‘we didn't know each other beforehand but someone found this legal document that our families betrothed us'-- R: Or a fake marriage-- K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: --that turns into a real marriage. K: Co-workers to friends to lovers type thing. R: Only one bed. K: Yes, exactly, exactly. R: These are by the way coming into genre fiction, science fiction and fantasy-- K [overlapping]: Yup. R: Where romance is becoming more welcome in the books. K: Yes. R: Actual romance, as opposed to ‘you are a buxom babe who stowed away on my spaceship therefore we are a couple.' The depth of character is now allowing for these tropes to trickle in as characters get to know each other in a more interesting way, and less classic pairing-off. K: I'm sure most people listening to this know or probably even a family member that just obsessively consumes romance novels. I think back to my grandmother and my aunt having stacks of those mass market paperback ones that all have like, essentially the same cover just different backgrounds and clothes. R: Hey look, when we talk about your cover art, you need to look at what your industry in your genre is-- K [overlapping]: Yes, absolutely! R: --putting on the shelf and you want to communicate that you are making the same promise to the reader. So you have very similar covers in romance, ‘cause there's only so many ways to be austere while still posing two characters together. K [laughing]: I would say that the two genre groups of readers that will most vivaciously consume media are hard military SF and romance, who will just tear through these books and stories, which is fantastic. I have friends that will read at least one, possibly two, romance novels a week. A lot of them do the Kindle Unlimited. R: Yup. K: Because there's a lot of romance novels on Kindle unlimited. R: Well the two systems kinda fed each other. K: Exactly. But, they have their tropes that they like. Forced into a marriage of convenience, or stranded on an island somewhere. R: Those are the good ones. K: Yeah. [laughs] And Kindle will very helpfully keep recommending more and more of those to you, and I don't want anyone to leave thinking I'm putting down those readers for just wanting the same thing over and over again. Books are there to give you comfort and to spark joy and interest, and if that's what you wanna read, if that's what's making you happy, then that's what you should be reading. R: Right. And in that case, tropes are very very good. K: Tropes are incredibly helpful. R: And they're a marketing tool; the people producing the work, they know that their readers like this trope, so an entire world where that trope is kind of central to what's going on is going to delight people. K: Something that I see a lot now, and especially with submissions I was seeing this, was a really hard and concerted effort to avoid tropes. And it's hard to write like that sometimes. Don't get me wrong; there are books out there that are successfully doing it, that are coming up with really original stories. That said, I don't think it's possible to write a full-length novel without having at least a handful of tropes in there. R: Plus, if it's successful and it's original, then someone's going to mimic that. K: It will become a trope on its own, eventually. R [overlapping]: And it becomes a trope. I mean this is where tropes come from, they are not fully forged in the heart of a star. K: [laughs] R: Y'know, they're a process of people recognizing a thing they like in a book and making sure it's repeated. That's exactly what's going on, so you come up with a story that's completely original and you're so proud of it, well, maybe you get to claim being the first, but you're not going to get to claim being the only for very long. K: Tropes go back to basically the genesis of human writing. R: Mhm. K: I mean, we consider the Epic of Gilgamesh to be the oldest more or less complete epic story written down, at this point. It's very clear, if you've ever read it, that even though we don't have anything that came before that, there's elements of the story that were just commonplace storytelling devices of that time. There's other parts of it that then pop up in later epic tales that it's impossible to tell well, was this influenced by the Epic of Gilgamesh, or was this influenced by common storytelling tropes of the time and the Epic of Gilgamesh just happens to be the one that lasted the longest that we still have? R: Right. K: If you ever look into the literary history of Robin Hood, Robin Hood as we know him today did not start off like that. R [overlapping]: Right. K: He was just like a straight up highwayman. R: Bandit, at some point yeah. K: Bandit, there we go. He regularly kinda killed people to get their money. But, the character evolved as storytelling tropes evolved. We went from Robin Hood being just a lawless bandit who's funny and laughing while he's doing all of this to, no no he's actually the son of an earl who went off on the Crusades and came back and he's stealing from the rich and giving to the needy. Yeah Robin Hood was just straight up stealing originally-- R [overlapping]: Wow. K: --in all of these. [laughs] R: Until suddenly he wasn't. K: Until suddenly he wasn't! R: And someday in the future, those tropes might change, and the story of Robin Hood would be told differently, and everyone would think that was the best version. K: There's actually a lot of what we would probably think of as ‘modern' tropes that show up in medieval European literature. The special chosen one is very tied to Arthurian legend, which again, if you ever wanna try to put that together, go and--good luck. R [laughing]: You figure that out, we're not doing it for you. K: No [laughs], no. That's another good example of the evolution of these tropes. And then there's actually like conflict and everyone was writing different versions of Arthur but because there was no printing press at the time, and there certainly wasn't any form of mass communication, there's all of these different versions of what virtues and what values they wanted to highlight in Arthur, based on what was common storytelling at that time. I think that there is this push to write something no one's ever written, and the thing is you're never gonna do that. R: And maybe it's not even something you wanna aspire to do. K: No, and it's okay for authors to write a story based on the story they wanna tell, not based on like, ‘I need to be the most original writer in the history of writing.' That said, there are definitely readers out there who are always looking for something they've never seen before. Maybe you can write one of those! But, it's still going to have tropes in it. R: Yeah. K: They are inescapable. They are inevitable. R: Yeah, the level of trope that you include might go up or down, depending on your story, but. Don't revise your draft and like strip out everything that was fun at the time, just because you've seen it before. K: Rekka and I are obviously coming from a place of primarily Western-fueled literature. R: Right. K: Y'know, if you get into different parts of the world, different storytelling traditions, they will also have their own tropes. [laughs] R: Yeah, they're not gonna be the same tropes, so if you wanna totally wow a Western audience just go borrow someone else's tropes. K: Prophecy and chosen one's just all over the historical literature, there's mythical places and people with secret lineages, I think that's something you're gonna come across no matter what, because uh. Almost like humanity just really enjoys those facets of storytelling. So. But yeah anyway, when I would get submissions sometimes that I could tell there was a writer that was just trying to be really really original, to just stay away from anything that may have been done before. One of the things I always thought was, “I don't know how I'm going to sell this to anyone.” R: Right, ‘cause what do you compare it to? K: Yeah, that's not necessarily a dealbreaker. But it does make things very difficult. Because if you're trying to describe something in the context of ‘well do you like this thing? You may also like this'-- R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: --and you're not able to do that, it's hard to sell a book. R: Right. Exactly. And that's how the conversations always start, you got the elevator pitches, you've got the comp books. And those are the quickest way to get people's attention, and now you've cut yourself off from that. K: Yeah exactly. That said, nothing wrong with trying to be original. Just be aware it could be, depending on how original you're going, it could be a little bit of an uphill battle. Again, I will use Gideon the Ninth as a weird pitch-- R [overlapping]: [laughs] K [laughing]: --for that book, ‘lesbian necromancers in a broken down palace in space,' and don't get me wrong, that definitely piqued my interest, but you can see how that might not be everyone's cup of tea. R: And if it's the first original book to present this-- K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: --to a major publisher, they're going to say, “Who do we put this on the shelf next to? Where do we market this? We don't use these tropes.” K: Yep. R: “How do we do?” Y'know? K: [laughs] R: It takes a brave publisher to try something new, even if that new thing is built out of all these amazing fantastic fun tropes. K: Yeah, exactly. R: So you can be original, and still combine all these tropes, and just do it in a way that makes people go, “Sorry, what? Say that again?!” K: That's kind of one more thing that I would like to talk about. We skirted around Gideon the Ninth-- R: I don't think we skirted around it. K: Well--is just trope after trope and I said yeah, but it's very original in everything else. So if you have sort of what you'd think of as like ‘ugh is this story too cookie-cutter, is it too predictable and too tropey?' the thing you need to then consider is, alright but everything else I have in here, the worldbuilding, the characters, the technology or the magic system, is that original? You can make up for a lot by having a really original, engaging world that this is set in, and writing really great characters that we're cheering for and boy do we really want them to be the long-lost secret half-sister of the wizard-- R: Right. K: We're just cheering so hard for her, I want for her to have magic powers. So-- [laughs] R: Especially if you start to lead toward a trope, and you don't deliver on it, your readers are going to be pretty upset with you. K: Or maybe they'll go, ‘wow that's awesome. I wanna write something like that.' R: And then it becomes a trope again. K: Exactly. R: Alright, is there anything else tropey to discuss? K: They're an endless cycle. R: Get your innertube and just jump into the lazy river of tropes, and-- K [overlapping]: [laughs] R: And enjoy, just come around again and it'll be good. Just write your story. K: Yeah. R: If it's got tropes in it, that's cool. If it doesn't, that's cool. It will soon. K [laughing]: And they're not lazy, let's be clear! R: They're not! K: No, yeah-- R: But that's what they call it at a theme park when they jump in with the innertube-- K: No no I'm just, yeah. R: Okay! So, tropes are good. If anyone tells you otherwise just take your book somewhere else. Someone wants them. They want them very very badly. K: Also, being constantly rejected and not seeing the brilliance of a character is a good trope too. R: Yes. And, going for the tropes of podcasting, you can find us online @wmbcast on Twitter and Instagram, and also at Patreon. And if you would be so kind to leave a rating and review, we would love to read it on the air. You could also ask us questions at any of those social media-- K [overlapping]: We love questions. R: --accounts. That can feed a future tropey episode. Or maybe not tropey, I don't know! We'll find out when you ask us questions. Thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk to you in two weeks!

Adam Peacock and Bryan Fletcher are joined by Kaylee McKeown’s emotional sister, Taylor, after another incredible Australian performance in the pool. Plus, the American reaction to Ariarne Titmus’ coach viral celebration, and some of the Olympics most embarrassing moments. In the next episode, Kath Loughnan & Nick Riewoldt follow Ariarne Titmus’ next crack at fierce rival Katie Ledecky.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lachie breaks down the big headlines, Harper chats water polo with expert Uga Mihailović (son of Aussie Stingers coach Predrag and brother of player Lena), then Lachie returns to give you the day 5 lowdown. What's the Olympic sport you'd be worst at? Let us know! And if you'd like to help us out then buymeacoffee.com/wheredowebegin is the place to go! 0:00 - Intro 0:19 - Recap 7:21 - Water polo with Uga Mihailović 24:45 - Question of the day 27:23 - Today's preview MUSIC Running Fanfare by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/4312-running-fanfare License: https://filmmusic.io/standard-license Danse Macabre - Big Hit 2 by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3590-danse-macabre---big-hit-2 License: https://filmmusic.io/standard-license See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Waylon, my youngest son, graduated on the day that I recorded this.  And it susses out all kinds of emotions.  From end of child support payments to the massive marker of time it's quite a day.  And my friend drops an amazing thought bomb on me.  “How about if you spot it you got it and it's about what you admire in people.  If you spot it you've got that.”  And well Waylon just is amazing to me so…Episode notes:Check out the Tools For A Good Life Summit here: https://bit.ly/ToolsForAGoodLifeSummit!Today was the day that my 2nd son, my youngest son, I have two sons, graduated high school.I interviewed Arlina Allen (interview #26)….  And she said the most impactful thing to me.  I am all in on the “if you spot it you got it”.  But I always think of it in terms of negatives.  So I judge this person and it's a reflection of myself.   She said how about this, how about if you spot it you got it and its about what you admire in people.  If you spot it you've got that.“Holy crap!” That is amazing…. So I started thinking about who do I admire. That's a cool thought.  So that's been brewing in my mind. And as I'm seeing people I like I'm like “I've got that!”I recorded this on June 11… my son graduated high school today. My other son two years ago this day. It's a very big marker of time.  And I'm sensitive to that :).  Tmi- my child support ended. And I thought it was going to be one of those “be all end all” type of moments. And it wasn't. It's not that big a deal. Which is crazy to me.  My boys graduating, wow!  That heavy dadness is complete.  Waylon today at graduation - he was just having fun at graduation.  He spontaneously erupted at the crowd in this beautiful way.  Someone happened to snap a picture. And I was like I fucking love him!  Waylon's personality is so rad.  I admire it so.  …and I was thinking of Arlina. Omg, I've got a personality and I've got to love that about myself. It's this cathartic moment :).  Loving myself for who I am loving people for who they are :).Cooper lee showed up for his brother in a big way!  He made it through the two hour graduation.  Encouraging his brother. I just can't tell you how much I love him too.Dawn and I shedding tears of joy.  And just thinking of the people who have gone before and who are coming behind. Life is trippy.  If you've had kids and made it through god bless you.  If you've got young ones and you're on your way god bless you.They (Cooper and Waylon) hugged and it was beautiful.  Amy torn god bless you for snapping that picture.  OMG!  So amazing!And then me just being able to love my boys for who they are and what I admire in them and go “you know what?  That's in me too. Fuck Yeah!”Omg. All these interviews. I was meditating today. Just so tired.  Just interviewing people.  It just emotionally wears me out.  They are just amazing.  Both Robert Drysdale and Anthony Trucks talked about loving themselves and not needing to please everybody.  As points of learning as they've gotten older.  I really needed to hear it.  It's been a process of loving who I am.  Loving who we are in a non arrogant way.  That's been the trick for me. Love me or leave me wrapped up in as little arrogance as possible.  …I was physically and mentally exhausted from the summit.  And beat down.  And I asked the universe “how can I be of service to Waylon? How can I make this about Waylon today?”  And my attitude changed in an instant.  I was just laughing as crying on my walk after it all.The big marker of time “check”.Start podcasting!  Get the Shure MV88 mobile mic, you can literally take it anywhere on the fly https://amzn.to/2Mnba3QAccess my “Insiders Guide to Finding Peace” here: https://belove.media/peace    See more resources at https://belove.media/resources.   Email me: contact@belove.media   For social Media:      https://www.instagram.com/mrmischaz/  https://www.facebook.com/MischaZvegintzov     Subscribe and share to help spread the love for a better world!As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

Dick Hawk. Intro: small Persona 3 update, and more (0-24) Theme: America! (24-end) Freedom Fighters (PS2) American Gladiators (NES) Madden 2004 International Track and Field 2000 (PS, N64) Metal Wolf Chaos (Xbox) Become a patron Website: https://redleafretrocast.blogspot.com https://linktr.ee/RedLeafRetrocast Twitter: @BowlingJD

In celebration of America day A.K.A 4th of July, we did a bonus episode. You get to hang with Scrap, Dingo, and Shorty and if you would like, you can participate in debauchery with us. We read some random news articles, and then we play a drinking game while watching Ancient Aliens. If for some reason you like the way our voices sound, make sure to subscribe to the show!

In celebration of America day A.K.A 4th of July, we did a bonus episode. You get to hang with Scrap, Dingo, and Shorty and if you would like, you can participate in debauchery with us. We read some random news articles, and then we play a drinking game while watching Ancient Aliens. If for some reason you like the way our voices sound, make sure to subscribe to the show!

Episode 45: Happy 4th! This week the Matlock brothers are celebrating America's 245th birthday. Join us for discussions on everything ranging from beer and hot dogs to movies and music, and some of the nation's most interesting facts and amazing inventions. #4thOfJuly #America #Podcast0:00 - Intro (Lee Michaels)1:19 - Welcome Andy / Heatwave2:41 - What Makes America So Great?3:48 - 4th of July Memories10:51 - Fireworks16:33 - The American Flag19:56 - Hot Dogs & Contests23:25 - Traditional Meals24:15 - Domestic Beers26:41 - US Population28:34 - Freedom Tower29:59 - The National Bird32:16 - Blockbuster Movies36:41 - USA Roadtrips39:58 - The National Anthem44:06 - Dead Presidents46:18 - Billy The Kid / MLK47:16 - First Rodeo / Great Fire48:31 - Lou Gehrig Speech49:42 - The Bicentennial Baby50:11 - 4th of July Music Releases53:47 - American Inventions1:02:48 - Lite Beers1:04:10 - Tech Innovations / Wheels1:06:36 - Dad's Advice1:08:52 - Outro / Close

This week on Marlin's Corner, Marlin brings you The Big 3: Monsters, America, and Trucks!

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast Mentioned in this episode: This is How You Lose the Time War by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone Good Omens by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett A Ship With No Parrot by R J Theodore (MetaStellar) Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: We're talking today about writing with a friend. Hopefully a friend. If not a friend, then a partner. Rekka: Hopefully a friend for longer than it takes to write the project. K: Hopefully a friend after you're done. [laughing] R: Yes, before and after. Hey, even after is probably more important than before. Let's be clear that you don't wanna destroy a relationship, but you can make a new friend. K: Yes, absolutely. Let's talk first about, why would you do this? R: [giggles] K: Why would you want to - and, okay so maybe a little context first. I will admit I have never worked on a project that a single story had been written or contributed to by two different people. R: As an editor, you mean? K: Yes. R: Ok. K: So why would you do this? It seems like a difficult thing to do. And for context, Rekka has done this a couple times. So Rekka, why would you do this? R: Because writing is lonely, and the idea that someone else will work on a project with you is just like the biggest longest most creative sleepover ever. K: Okay! R: It's a good reason. K: That is certainly a good reason, writing is lonely. I think a lot of writers, their editor when they get one is the first time they're really having somebody to collaborate with, and to talk to. R: To go back and forth. K: Yeah, but the editor is not writing the book. R: I know! Which is unfair, honestly. K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: I wanna know who I talk to about this. K: Yeah but you know what you're right, writing is a lonely process. There's a lot of time spent sitting by yourself just having to think. R: And having feelings. K: Yeah. If you're writing with someone, you get to share those with someone else. R: And shout about things. K: Absolutely. Shouting is a necessary component to that 100% — R: It's actually kinda how it gets started, there's a lot of enthusiastic shouting about an idea. K: [laughing] R: But you know what stinks? Is that you still have to write alone. K: Well and that's exactly what I was gonna ask you. So okay, let's go through this. You've decided I'm tired of being alone here, I want to also inflict this upon somebody else. So what do you do? R: [deep sigh] How do you find someone else to inflict things upon? So the first person that I sat down to write a project with was a friend, and we said like hey we should try this out! And we were both writers to begin with, writing in fairly different genres but still genre fiction. And we decided we were going to do a project and we said hey, it will be this, like we outlined it together. We - or we didn't so much outline it together but we concepted it out together. K: Okay. R: And then we each created a POV character as part of that concept. And then we wrote our chapters back and forth, so that the tone, the voice, for that POV character is consistent. K: Mhm. R: And so that you can have a character that's slightly unreliable, just because like you couldn't catch all the continuity errors, that you and your partner - K [overlapping]: Mhm. Yup. R: - created. It also lets you kind of reshuffle the scenes if you need to later, uh move things around a little bit easier, extract things if you need to without losing too many threads. But my other experience in doing it we did not, we had one POV. So, it doesn't have to be done that way. K: Tell us about the time you wrote one POV. R: I sort of went through my text file that I keep on my phone that's just like the little random lines and concepts, phrases that occur to me. And so the writing partner latched onto one and said, “That's interesting, let's work with that.” And then that was it, we just kind of went. I wrote something and sent it to him, and then I think we gave a week or two weeks max for each turnaround, so that one person wasn't waiting on the other forever. So it kinda bounced back and forth, and it would twist a little, like I'd get back and reread what the new words were and I'd be like oh okay, that's where that's going now. K: [chuckles] R: So it felt a little bit like improv, where somebody tosses you something, and y - the guide for improv is don't say “no,” say “yes, and...” So I think I had more of that spirit in the second project than I did in the first time attempting it, where um. As a kid I used to play with my friends and we'd get the toys all out and I'd immediately have a plot. And my friends would never adhere to it - K [overlapping]: [chuckles] R: Because of course they didn't know it. They would have whatever toy they were holding do a thing and I'd be like “No no no not that, have it do this.” So I can't imagine I was much fun to play with. Nor was it probably much fun to try and write with me on the project where I didn't have the spirit of “yes, and...” I had more like “mmm. That's interesting, how's that gonna fit back into where I'm taking this?” K: Well and that's a very good point, is I think if you're going to write with somebody it has to be a genuinely collaborative effort, rather than someone coming in with a story and having someone else tell it. R: Yeah and like I said, both times it was starting from a concept that, it wasn't like, “Oh I wanna write this book, do you wanna write it with me?” K: Mhm. R: So it was two people coming together each time saying “let's work together on a thing, what should we work on, do you have any ideas, yeah sure how ‘bout this concept, okay that's interesting what can we do with that? And then how do you wanna do this? Like okay I'll write some and then you write some and then I'll write some and then you write some. K: So like just examples off the top of my head, did you read This Is How You Lose the Time War? R: Yes. K: Yeah, so that was, so that's a novella actually written by Amal El-Mohtar and Max Gladstone. And I remember going like huh, I'm curious to see how they did this, and I went back and I think I read an interview or something with them, and sure enough what they did was they outlined a plot, and then they took turns writing the letters in it, and - R: But not only that, interesting point that maybe you want to cut me off and say we'll get to that in a second - K: No, no prob. [laughing] R: But they wrote it at the same table, part of it at least. K: Yes. If you haven't read This Is How You Lose the Time War, read it, it's very good and it's a quick read. R: It won awards for a reason. K: I - yeah, it won a lot of awards. [chuckles] But the entire story is told through letters being sent back and forth between Agent Red and Agent Blue, both of whom work for separate agencies that go back in time and change things to make history fit what they want it to be. So I remember reading in this that sometimes they were, like they were writing the letters and then mailing them to each other essentially, and letting the other person correspond and reply, it was almost a bit of role-playing. But yes they did write some of it sitting across from each other. But then another good example that's the opposite: Good Omens was written by Neil Gaiman and Terry Prachett and they both - R [overlapping]: [laughing] I was thinking of The Omen, and I'm like, I didn't know - wait what?! K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: They wrote that? Okay, I've caught up, continue. K: Neil Gaiman and Terry Prachett, one of them wrote a lot of the main story, and then the other one fleshed out a lot of it. There's a main plot that but there's a lot of other stuff going on, and there's a lot of ancillary characters that turn out to be important to the plot but they never really gave a clear answer if it was like an assignment list so to speak, if there was like a breakdown of who was doing what. It sounds like they are just very good friends who were both very talented writers and were able to do this. I do see a lot of times when there's two authors involved, it's two different POVs, and - which is a perfectly intriguing way to do it. R: The way I always imagine it is that it starts with some sort of conference call or in-person visit, and the bones of the story are shaped out there. And then, at least far enough ahead that people can get to work writing. Because okay we're back to writing being lonely, you do have to go back to your own desk - K: [giggles] R: - and work on the project from your side, by yourself. I have heard of people writing in Google Docs so they can see the other people's words appear at - that just seems like chaos mode. K: I will say that's how I take notes at work when I'm on a call with multiple people from my side and like, I won't say it's easy, it's not terrible. R: It's very distracting. K: [chuckles] R: So I mean that would be a tremendously interesting way to do it, I would love to try that sometime. But coordinating that puts you back into the whole like ‘we have to be at the same place at the same time' aspect, which is probably not one of the benefits that most people would list of co-writing, is that you write your part of it without having to wait for the other person until like your check-in, and then you see what's come up with the other person's side of things and then you go back. And I will say again, the first time I tried to do this, we were writing in a shared Scrivener file. K: Okay. R: This was before Scrivener had real integration with Dropbox. K: The dark ages, yeah. R: Well no but - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: I don't think it would work now, because back then two people could open the same Scrivener document. Now Scrivener will tell you sorry, you can't. It would have to go back to Google Docs or something, if we wanted to do it that way where we could see all the bones of the project coming together. The second time, we were just emailing a Word document back and forth that was updated and trying to keep them straight and not work in an old version. Which didn't happen, it was short enough that I don't think either of us were confused. K: How important is it to set down rules, so to speak? Of like, “Okay. This is how this is going to happen. Then we're going to, you know, everything must be tracked here, or you have to let the other person know if you're changing something to this.” I imagine it would depend on, are you both writing in the same document or are you each writing from a separate POV and then they're gonna be combined. How did you manage that? R: So it's interesting you ask that, because the first time, my partner and I actually wrote up a contract. K: I almost asked you, and I was like you know what, that seems like something maybe you wouldn't do right at the start of this, but - R: No, I think it's important. It's a good idea to have a contract that outlines who's responsible for what, how quickly people are expected to get things back - K: Mhm. R: How royalties are going to be split. K [overlapping]: Okay. R: Like if somebody's only responsible for the outline, in terms of word count they haven't contributed the same as the other person, but is it possible that you're splitting it 50/50? Either way, put it in writing, because that protects your estate later on from trying to come after somebody in arguing how much should or shouldn't be shared. It also can say like alright, this project is dissolved if the person takes more than two months to come back with their paragraph contribution for the week. K: Yeah. R: You know, all the questions that you just outlined can be described in there, including things like how are we going to edit this? Are we going to finish this project by taking it to a professional editor, like all the nitty gritty details can go, if not in a contract, in a project outline that can be referenced in a contract. K: All of the things we've been saying in the 60-something episodes of this podcast, now imagine you have to okay them with somebody else. R: Yeah. K [laughing]: Like - R: It depends on the personalities involved. One person might be like, ‘I'm going to leave all these decisions to you.' K: Mhm. ‘I'm just here to write,' yeah. R: Well ‘I just wanna write' or ‘I am - my faith in you and your ability to do these things is greater than my willingness to try and learn them,' and then the other person saying like ‘Yes, I agree to also take on all those tasks.' K: Mhm. R: So yeah. The first project, we drew up a contract and we said what the project was, who was going to - that we were splitting it, not necessarily like even chapters but that we were going to have two POVs and the POVs would each be the responsibility of a different person. K: Did you have an expected word count? R: Yeah. I think it was a little bit like a query letter, in terms of the way that the project was described. (I was looking for it but I couldn't find it.) In the way that the project was described and then in the way that we talked about the production timeline after, it was a little bit more like a marketing plan even. Including distribution: how were we going to release this? Was it going to be Kindle Unlimited or was it going to be distributed wide through all the retailers? K: You do need something like that, because let's say you start writing with somebody and you get pretty far down the path and it turns out you fundamentally disagree on what to do with the book. Well each of you have the files now presumably, [laughing] so - R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: What are you gonna do? R: You have to trust that the other person's not going to run off with it. Also, that's what the contract is, to ensure that they don't. K: Did you sit down and kind of come up with some agreed upon stylistic choices? R: In the sense of what? Like, comp title kind of things? K: Not just comp title, but stylistic in terms of writing. Granted if you're writing two different POVs you can attribute these things to a character, but like did you decide ‘Okay this is going to be descriptive, we're going to really emphasize the natural beauty of the setting,' or ‘we're going to make sure the characters always take note of a certain thing so that we can note it to the reader.' How'd you handle worldbuilding? How did you come to terms with all of the things that an author typically has to decide on their own? R: We did not, I think in either case really, get into that. K: Okay. R: We knew enough of each other's writing to sort of know what we were getting into. K: Yeah, and that's a very good point by the way; probably don't try to collaborate on a writing project with somebody whose writing you've never read before. R: Yeah. At the very least read some before you finalize all your contracts. K: Yes. I'd say that's important and, I'm not saying this to be mean or flippant, the last thing you want is to get started on a project and find out the person's not actually a very good writer. R: Or that your styles just don't make for good story together. You are not going to find a writer who writes exactly like you; don't assume that you aren't going to come up against like ‘Oh, I don't actually enjoy reading this from you.' K: Yeah. R: You want to challenge yourself and see how you can make your two styles fit together. Because if you're not growing as you work on anything then why bother? But you also don't want it to be such a challenge that you cannot enjoy the process. K: So what do you do when you have disagreements about something? R: Well hopefully the answer is something that you've already figured out in the contract, like if you're - K: Okay. R: It's kinda like when a company goes back to their mission statement to figure out how to proceed with something. K: What about if it's a story-related thing that's not necessarily outlined in the contract? R: Give me an example. K: Alright so, let's say in the end of the fifth season of Buffy there was like a fight in the writers' room about - uh, spoiler for a show that's been off the air for about 15 years, everyone - ‘we think Buffy maybe needs to die,' ‘no there's no reason she has to die,' and then… there's a fight! [chuckles] R: Hopefully your contract has a walking clause. Something that says like alright, if at some point the parties can't decide on where the story should go, they can walk away, and at that point maybe they decide, or maybe in your contract it should say, that you need to pick who gets to take the story with them - K [overlapping]: Mhm, yeah. R: - if somebody still wants to write it. ‘Cause that's something that wasn't in the contract for my first one, and part of me - like I wouldn't write the same story -  K: Mhm. R: We never finished it. I wouldn't write the same story but there are elements I'd like to take, but they're elements that would be recognizable enough. K: Mhm. R: So, how should we have proceeded? Probably one of us should - well at this point I could write to the person and say, “Hey, I wanna write this story, do you mind if I write this story on my own, not giving you any credit?” K [chuckles]: Yeah. Or if you do, how do I compensate you accordingly? R: Or just an acknowledgement, like I'll acknowledge that the story started, and then y'know life happened, we didn't finish it. K: Well that's a form of compensation. R: Yeah. Acknowledgement is like credit in a certain way, without - but again, in that email you say, “Okay cool.” And they write back and they're like, “Fine,” and I say, “Great. Here's something I'd like you to sign, just to say that like you are aware that I am writing this, and that I'm writing it all on my own -” K [overlapping]: Yup. R: “Using new material. And that, the only thing you expect is to get a nod in the acknowledgements.” That's something that you can do if you get to the point where you disagree on something and there's no - it's like if you're to the point of fisticuffs you should probably walk away, or take a break. Are you so stressed about either the project or whatever that you're just lashing out, or is this actually a problem, this relationship that you're working in? K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: So, you know, be an adult. K: And listen, by the way. I have writers that get, I mean, so defensive, about just - no one that I've worked with on a published book, but people I've talked to, people who've asked for advice and different things. And they're so defensive about the story to an editor. Imagine, again, trying to write this with another person. R: That's the thing is you really have to gauge how well you're going to work together with this person. K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: Do you just wanna do stuff because you're friends and you like spending time with them? That might not be enough to go on for the amount of, like think of the anguish that you put into a novel project in the first place. You would think that co-authoring means you share that anguish, but you actually just each have your own anguish - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - which might make you less compatible than you are at the start. K: My grandmother always says to never marry somebody before you've taken a three-day bus trip across country with them. I kind of feel like with writers it's like alright, I wanna see you two cook dinner together in the same kitchen, making the same dish. Like you, you have to collectively present me with one dish. And let's see how that goes. [laughing] R: Are you following a recipe or are you creating a recipe? K: You have to decide. R: Hm. K: But you actually, you kinda touched on something interesting there, which is the other form of collaborative writing that I've seen in query letters a lot, you said “Is this just your friend that you wanna hang out with and spend time with?” And where I get a lot of those from is roleplaying games. R: Mhm. K: There's a lot of thought and worldbuilding and character development and everything that goes into those. The, I hesitate to even call them players, by that point they're basically writers, put a lot of time and effort into developing these characters and these worlds and things and then they interact with other people who help them contribute and grow, and that is a way that I've seen some collaborative writing come to fruition is, start out as a game. R: You have to be a very caring person to be a good gamemaster, in that you have to care about the experience of the people that you are essentially having a collaborative worldbuilding experience with. You have to want them to have fun, or they're not going to have fun. K [overlapping]: [chuckles] R: You have to have set up different paths that they can choose to take so that they have some agency in the experience as well, and you have to be willing to say ‘yes and' rather than ‘no.' And you have to be willing to accept that sort of spontaneity. The best path forward may not always be the one you expect, but if you care about working with someone in a way that 1) doesn't negate their contribution - K: Mhm. R: - and make it seem like ugh, well that almost matches what I would've done; like it's not about anybody looking for permission from somebody else, it's unwinding this coil of like where is this going, and unwinding it together. So we mentioned before that there are experiences where somebody writes the outline and somebody else writes the story to the outline, and I think that's another balancing act because as somebody writes to an outline that they've made for themselves, they feel free to deviate from it. And I imagine that also happens when they write to an outline that somebody else has written. But also, writing an outline doesn't quite transmit everything that goes into a story. It's very hard to imagine what a person intended for an entire scene based on a single sentence or a couple of sentences. So there's gotta be a lot of letting go; if one person is handling one creative step and another person is handling another creative step, again that contract but also your expectations have to be that like that first person is going to be letting go of a lot of control of the story if they're not going to participate in the writing of it. K: It certainly is an exercise in having to give up and trust somebody with something that you created and love. R: It's interpersonal relationships on a scale that usually you can separate from your personal creative self, and you would expect to put this much work into a business project or a marriage or opening a business with somebody - and again like, have a contract. Yeah you are putting that much effort into this. K: You're opening a business with someone in a respect; you're creating a product. R: Yeah we're creating a product here that can be sold and resold and rights have to be licensed and - K: Mhm. R: You have to envision the success of this to really get a grip on all the things you have to consider. You can't just ‘oh haha this'll be fun' if you are going to publish it, because you never know where it's gonna go. K: Look at some of the greatest duos of what-have-you that fell apart because of differences in ideas. R: Mhm. I mean here are the advice like, never work for friends, watch out, you'll ruin your relationship if you try to do this, I mean that's kind of true of this if you don't go into it with the right mindframe. K: So now that we've scared the hell out of everybody and never gonna wanna write a collaborative project together. What were some of the fun things about it? R: The brainstorming at the beginning was definitely really fun. Sit down with somebody that you like and you talk about what ideas might come out of something, depending on your level of prepwork, you might've had a really long conversation or you have lots of these little visual pieces that you're gonna see how you're gonna string together. Or you might have just kinda said ‘well let's just see where it goes.' K: Mhm. R: Which I think was my experience the second time, once we picked that concept out of my Word doc of random ideas that I've had. K [laughing]: By the way, if you're listening to this and you wanna be a writer and you don't have a Word document of random ideas you've had please start one immediately. R: Hopefully if you're called to be a writer and you go ‘oh, you mean I should've been writing all those down,' as opposed to like ‘oh I've gotta start coming up with ideas' - like I think if you're at the point where you don't even have ideas - K: I'm saying for ideas you've already had. R: Okay. K: You need to have a good place to keep them. R: Jot them down. But yeah, so we picked something out of my book of ideas. If it's a collaborative effort between friends, it might've even been something like that started as a Twitter conversation and now you're writing it. So wherever you get your idea from, it usually starts with social connection, friendship, enthusiasm, and hopefully it's all mutual. And then you go to the, ‘okay, are we really doing this?' K: [giggles] R: ‘Let's start the contract.' If the person's not comfortable entering into a contract with you, then that's a red flag right there, that one of you is uncomfortable with what it's gonna take to finish this project out. Because the contract is the thing that's gonna see you through it all, so if you stop and you refuse to move forward at that point, that saves everybody some trouble. But the fun things about it are that starting moment, where the excitement is just zapping back and forth between the two of you, whether online or in person. K: Mhm. R: And then seeing what the other person wrote every week and getting to respond to it in like kind. It's a little bit like writing fanfiction, in real time, with an author. K: [laughing] R: And then the other person can feel the exact same way, that they are the one writing the fanfic in real time with the author. And hopefully it is a surprise every time that you open the document to see what's new. And then you pick someone whose writing you like, whose writing you enjoy, and then honestly it kinda carries you through the submissions process. ‘Cause you're like okay well it can't be that bad because I respect this person's writing - K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: - so if they liked it, then there's just a little like ‘no, this isn't bad,' that you can hold in your heart when you get a rejection from a magazine or something. K: Aww. R: Because like, you have faith that the other person knows what they're doing, and they have faith that you know what you're doing, and together you have this piece that you both believe in, even if you are believing in only half of it. [chuckles] And not the half that, you know, you worked on. So it's just really nice, yeah. K [overlapping]: In the end you're coming together to all believe together. R: Yeah I mean, we kinda, like in the second case it was a short story, and we did finish it. So, going back and forth, one person writing a few thousand words or like kinda getting to the end of a scene, like that break moment kinda thing where like - K: Yup. R: Fade to black, commercial break, whatever you wanna call it, and then going ‘ok! I just feel good about that writing session; I'm sending this back to you.' We did that a few times back and forth. One of us sent the first 500 words in November. By the time we had finished it, it was February of the following year. And, so that's pretty quick - K: Yeah that's really quick. R: We were both on top of it; we only sent it back like a couple of times. I think our total word count is 4100 words, so, at most that was like eight back and forth of - K [overlapping]: Mhm. R: - 500 words each, or I think some of them were a little bit longer. I think once we sorta started to see where it was going some of us were - some of us - [chuckles] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Half of us - one of us would write more of that, and the other person would write more of the other. K: Okay. R: So, and then after that, we started talking about like okay what do you wanna do now, ‘let's sit on it for a month' was the response, and then we picked some markets to target and one of us was just in charge of submitting them. K: So you, you had a system, you had a plan. R: Yeah. We didn't have a contract on that one, maybe we should. The nice thing is when you say you're co-authoring, the magazine tends to send two separate payments. K: Okay, nice. R: Or at least in my experience so far, of selling this once. K: [laughing] So overall, a good experience? R: Yeah! Yeah, that one was a lot of fun. Like I said, having a totally different attitude toward where it was going and who was in charge - which was neither of us or both of us? - it was a very different experience than the first time. My first experience was with someone, we were trying to write a whole novel, and I think our intent was it might be a series. So this was like long-haul planning, and it wasn't long before I realized like I don't think our styles really mesh. And he also wrote really really fast, and kind of expected me to write really really fast, so I would turn around something after working on it for like a week or so, and then the next day he'd be like ‘okay, your turn.' And I'd be like ‘oh, see, um, this isn't the only thing I wanna work on.' [laughing] K: Yeah. [chuckles] R: And so it was also, I think, in the middle of the final phases of getting Flotsam out, so it probably felt like a disruption, and the fact that he was turning things around so fast was like, frustrating to me. Whereas like I would work on something for awhile and then think like ‘okay, there, done, check it off my list' - K [chuckles]: Deep breath, yeah. R: And the next day it'd be on my list again. K: That can get a little stressful, certainly. R: Yeah. K: I guess the takeaway from all of this then is whether or not you have a good experience with this, a lot of it comes down to you. R: And planning and expectation yeah. K: Yeah. R: You could go to the Happiest Place On Earth and be a total stick in the mud about it, so - K: Yes. R: Like, that's true of everything. K: Yeah. Yeah but there's certain things you can do to make sure that it doesn't become a miserable experience, certainly. R: Yeah. Or, that you have a way out if it does. K: Yes, yes, there you go. So yeah I think that's - any, Rekka, any parting thoughts, any final suggestions or advice? R: If it's something that you've wanted to do, I definitely recommend doing it. Try it out and see. Hopefully, it doesn't break a friendship - [giggles] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Y'know, the first time you try it. Having that contract will go a long way to having a mutual not-fun-anymore clause. If neither party is interested in going forward, then that's it. That's all that has to be said, and the project is dissolved. And if the other person is loving where it was going and wants to keep going with it, then you just have that release agreement, where like “I don't expect any royalties or anything from this, you go ahead and have fun with it.” You hate to think that you need a contract to go do something that you and a friend both love doing, but ahh, I really think it's a good idea. K: It's probably, yeah. R: At worst, it doesn't hurt, and at best, it protects you and it gives you something to fall back on if things aren't going well. But, hopefully things go very very well and you end up with a story and you sell it, like I did! K: There you go. Rekka, what's the story you sold? R: [giggles] K: You knew I was gonna ask you about - R: Maurice Broaddus and I wrote a story called The Archivist, and it sold to Lightspeed magazine and should come out sometime within the next nine months or so. One day I imagine I will wake up and have been tagged on Twitter. K: It's just gonna be on there, yeah. R: And I will be able to share it then. My recent story on MetaStellar I was told the date, and then a few days ahead of time I was told what the URL would be and when it would go live, so I was able to prepare, which was nice. K: Very nice! As always, we hope we left you with some food for thought. R: It's worth doing, if only to find out whether you enjoy it or not, but also keep in mind that it takes the right pair of minds to do it. So if you don't enjoy the first time, that doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun again. But I hope you love it, ‘cause I did enjoy it, and I really am proud of the story that came out of it. I would not have written that story on my own. K: Oh, okay, well great! R: Which is another point, like I shouldn't leave off without saying that, but like we created a story that neither of us would've written if it was just working alone. K: Greater than the sum of their parts. R: Or at least greater than the sum of half the parts. [laughing] K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: Alright, well that is probably enough. If you want more, or you want to be notified when the story goes live, you can send us a message on Twitter or Instagram, we are @WMBcast. You can also find us on WMBcast.com with all our old episodes. If you are listening from the future, I might come back and add the link to that story when it does go live, to the show notes. If you are listening from a very very profitable future - K [overlapping]: [giggles] R: - you might consider going to Patreon.com/WMBcast to support us financially, but we don't need that! What we would really really love are some ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast aggregator, whichever you're listening to right now. That would be so, so helpful; it helps people find us. We had someone shouting on Twitter the other day saying like ‘why are more of you not listening to this podcast?' I guarantee it's because it's hard to find podcasts, unless they have really good ratings and reviews. So please, drop us some five stars and some glowing words, they don't have to be expansive. Just like ‘this podcast rocks!' I mean, that's what I think, that's what I would write. You can use that though. I'm not gonna hold you on a contract or anything. K: [laughing] R: Alright, two weeks from now we'll be talking about something entirely different, but probably just as goofy.

Eye to Nigh Episode 6: Learn all about Joey's mission to acquire an elusive PS5, Vlad and Joey's take on historic wars, the US education system, world changing technology,  their favorite international foods, and much more!Check out Adriana's Creations for unique handcrafted jewelry collections!Website: https://adrianascreationsus.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adrianascreationsus/Follow us on Instagram @eyetonighpodcast  and subscribe to our YouTube Channel for podcast outtakes.Intro by Young Petro 

Summary: Kelly McGrath discusses Nonviolent Communication and how it benefits her life, her mediation practice, and her clients. Nonviolent communication is it's a method of communication that was founded and created by Dr. Marshall Rosenberg and it has four components. Observations, feelings, needs, and requests. Your observation versus your evaluations, so the things you would see if a video was being taken of something, that's the observation, what actually occurred. And then we all put our spin on that in our mind, based on our past family of origin beliefs and other beliefs. So those are the evaluations that we make, or the judgements that we make about the observations. Your feelings, and your feelings point to needs that are being met or not met, so feelings and needs. And those needs are universal all over the world, needs such as support and kindness and consideration, joy, beauty, things that everyone can understand. And requests. So, requests versus demands. A request is something you want someone else to do to get your need met, and if they decline that request, you're okay with it. You know it's a request if you're okay with them saying no. Welcome Kelly McGrath Honestly Kelly I'm very impressed with your background and what you're up to, so I'm going to let you explain because I want to be sure it's highlighted in a way that really expresses what you do. K: Well thanks and I'm very happy to be here. I'm a mediator and a peace-loving lawyer. I have my own practice Kelly McGrath Law, and we really guide people through the most challenging conversations of their lives, so they stay out of court. And I use all my background, so I'm an integrative lawyer, which means that I am very holistic, I bring all of my learning, not just my legal education, but all of my background with me and into my practice. So, I have education and skills in trauma and resilience and in nonviolent communication which is a way of showing up in the world that removes the judgment and evaluation and is based on universal human needs. So, I really treat my clients with all of my background, not just my legal expertise. And I do a lot of training on communication skills for parents and foster parents and teens and couples. V: That's fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. So, our session today is on nonviolent communication. Would you explain a little of what that means? K: Sure, it's a method of communication that was founded and created by Dr. Marshall Rosenberg and it has four components. Your feelings, and your feelings point to needs that are being met or not met, so feelings and needs. And those needs are universal all over the world, needs such as support and kindness and consideration, ah, joy, beauty, things that everyone can understand. And then your observation versus your evaluations, so the things you would see if a video was being taken of something, that's the observation, what actually occurred. And then we all put our spin on that in our mind, based on our past family of origin beliefs and other beliefs. So those are the evaluations that we make, or the judgements that we make about the observations. So, observations, evaluations, requests. So, requests versus demands.  What a request is. A request is something you want someone else to do to get your need met, and if they decline that request, you're okay with it. You know it's a request if you're okay with them saying no. If you make a request, what you think is a request and someone says no and then you're mad or something bad happens for the other person, you stonewall them, that that was really a demand. So, talking about feelings and needs and faux feelings which are things that we were taught that we say are feelings that really have that layer of judgment and evaluation on them and blame someone else. And those are really not feelings. Feelings are sensations in our body, like joy, anger, frustration, and things like that. Faux feelings are things like when someone says, “I feel neglected”, Or “I feel abandoned.” Or “I feel disrespected.” Or “I feel abused.” Now, a disclaimer, I'm not talking about the actual physical abuse or neglect or abandonment that is real. I'm talking about when people say they feel this way. V: Right K: Those are faux feelings so those have that layer of judgement that someone else is to blame for that. For that “feeling”. So that's what nonviolent communication is. It seems very simple, but the trick is to implement it in your life. V: Absolutely. Because so often we have to know what we are feeling and a lot of us don't want to admit our feelings because of past conditioning like you said. K: Right, and really, we're not trained to notice our feelings during the day, so if you don't check in with yourself, say you're going to a meeting and you don't check in with yourself but you had a very challenging morning; the kids were late and your husband yelled at you and you're driving to work and there is a lot of traffic and you get in this meeting. You're going to show up in a way and say things maybe in a way that you are not in alignment with your values. So, if you take a moment before that meeting and check in with yourself, close your eyes, take a deep breath, a belly breath and, “What am I feeling right now – I'm really feeling agitated.” Okay, and then you think, your feelings point to needs getting met or not met so then you think “What am I needing right now?” And it might be something like ease or support. Once you can have that sense of clarity, it doesn't make your problems go away, but it helps you ratchet that response down. Or that reaction down so that you can show up and respond in a way that you want to. So, then you can walk in that meeting and say okay, I'm going to focus on this meeting, you know. So, I bring a lot of that into my practice. Because legal issues, they're not about the legal issue, they're about the emotions that are happening because of that legal problem. That's why people hire lawyers or mediators, to help with their issue so that their emotions, so they can have ease in their life. V: I think it is so true that we don't practice knowing what we need, and then, I have been conditioned over my career that you just show up and do, you don't have emotions, you don't have needs, you just align yourself to what the expectations are. So, there is a lot of conflict in the workplace that just doesn't ever get dealt with or swept under the rug and it just brews. K: Um hum, and from a bottom-line perspective and the best thing an employer can do is really learn and get some professional education and mentorship in communication and conflict resolution. Because you're gonna lose the good people, and you're gonna keep people that are causing problems if you don't know how to manage that. And also like you said, you can build up resentment, people can feel like they are not heard there, so it's really important. Actually, the CEO of Microsoft, when he came in as CEO, he gave everyone Marshall Rosenberg's book. Everyone in top leadership. “Nonviolent Communication the Language of Life.” He really felt that that soft skill is one of the most important things for a successful business. V: I absolutely agree. What I have seen often is workplace bullies don't get reigned in, they leave a wreckage behind, and nobody is really able to resolve that situation (laugh) So, I agree, K: I totally agree. And you know the workplace bully is, often times that person was victimized. V: Right K: In their past. So, you have to know that okay, that person probably has some needs that aren't being met. And you know if they are a star performer, it's worth your business, it's worth it for your business to go ahead and manage that. So, bring them in and have a conversation with them. And the conversation is observational – “When you did this, said this, or acted in this certain way,” without any judgement, just what happened, I felt, insert the feeling, “frustrated, sad, angry, confused, because I have a need for, and then it's, communication, clarity, support, kindness, whatever that need is. And then the request. And the request is who will do what by when. My request is put your complaints in an email to me so that we can talk about them at an assigned time, rather than, you know, whatever the observation that they did was, talk at the water cooler about it. So that is a simple way that businesses can keep the best people and also help connection between the employees, and the employees and management. V: And I think that productivity is only ever increased when people feel that they are on the same page, they feel safe in their work environment, they feel heard like you said, they feel like they are a contribution, so allowing somebody to…and I love what you said, that that person they are not bad or wrong by being a bully, although we think that bully means sometimes bad or wrong, it's just the method of communicating that might not work very well. So, to reframe it and say this person has needs also and let's reframe this interaction for a way that works. That takes some practice. K: Yeah, I agree, you know we all need mentorship, and we all need skill building our entire lives. And communication and conflict resolution skill building most of all because that impacts every area of your life, personal and professional. I have a background in restorative justice too, which is a way of dealing with harm and crime that brings the parties together and asks four questions: What happened? Who was impacted and how? What needs to be done to make things as right as possible? And what needs to be done to make sure this never happens again? And that combined with NVC, nonviolent communication is just a way of managing your team, it's problems and miscommunication that doesn't push blame and shame on anybody. It focuses on the observation of what happened. Everyone was there, everyone knows what happened. Let's put it out here, let's talk about what can be done and make things as right as possible. You can't always make things completely right, go back to how it was before but you can make things as right as possible, and people can have the opportunity to feel heard. One of the aspects of restorative justice is that even the offender, the offender, whoever the offender is, can repair harm if they admit accountability and want to make things as right as possible. And no one wants to be thought of in their worst moment of their life, you know. We all make mistakes, even really bad ones or hard ones, challenging ones. But there are things that can be done to make things as right as possible and to change and grow, even that person, like that workplace bully. V: I think that would really help families also. That concept, because so often in a frustrating – I had some frustrating experiences with my own children, and you throw your hands up in the air and you say I just don't know what to do. (laughter) And that's probably the real honest statement. (Yeah) and then we grab for something that doesn't work very well, like the scolding or I'll tell you what to do. (laughter) K: Well yeah, we often go back to our family of origin training, unless we get new training. And you know, even then we, we don't rise to the level of our expectation we fall to the level of our training. So, it's about that. But you know in that case, and I do work with not only couples, but parents and children, especially teens, using nonviolent communication and I volunteer with foster teens and foster parents when there is about to be a placement disruption or, basically that means the teen is about to be moved to a new foster home. And I use nonviolent communication with them, and I don't say use it, I practice it with them and help model that for them. But I think the training there teaches you that when you feel, when you notice your feelings as a parent, you're noticing your anger level rising or like tingly sensations, or your shoulders getting tight or you jaw getting tight, when you practice NVC you notice those sensations. So, once you notice those sensations you don't just automatically react to the situation, you know that you need empathy first. So that's when you need to walk away and say, “I'm feeling upset right now, let me go think about things and come back and talk to you.” Because your ultimate need is connection with your child, that's the ultimate goal, and of course mentorship for them to be an autonomous independent person. But, people, when people are upset, especially parents, they want to try to solve the problem quickly. The problem they need to solve is to get clear about what their need is. (yeah) And get clear about what their feelings are. And there is a request they can make of their child. V: And I love that – to make a request, because as a parent I was trained to be authoritarian, (yeah), and we know it didn't work real well when my parents were authoritative, but let's bring it out because it's the tool of choice, right? K: It is, and it's the easy one and it's, you know why it's because - at that moment we are lacking personal power or feeling a need for personal power because we're not sure how to get out of this situation. So, the easiest thing to do to grab that personal power is to force someone to do something. So, yeah, we don't, people are happier when we do things with them rather than to them or for them. (yeah) So that's what NVC helps, it helps you get clear about what your needs are, what your feelings are and if there is a request you can make. And why. I tell this story about, and it's a fictional story, but about my husband, asking him to take the trash out. And I come home I see the trash is not taken out so I'm like ugh, can you take the trash out? Yeah, I'll take it out. And then I come back a few hours later and it's still overflowing. So, one way I can handle this is to start having judgmental thoughts. Like, I'm always the one that does everything around here, he never listens, and he doesn't pick up after himself and all this. And then I go yell. Right? Which can ruin the whole night. And it doesn't meet my ultimate need of connection with my husband. But, if I feel the rising sensation and I am astute enough and aware enough to say “Oh, I'm pretty upset about this.” Okay, I'm going to take a minute, my need is order. Right, that's really my need, order, beauty, in this situation, and consideration, right. And if I can feel that trigger go down a little bit I can also then, think what is he needing right now, what is going on for him right now that he didn't do that for me right away? So, a few things, it can be like he just got a new book that he's reading and his need for joy is a little bit above my need for order. And did I really tell him when I wanted it out? I didn't, so I wasn't clear. Like, “Hi, can you take the trash out within the next hour?” That would have solved the problem. So, it's not that he is lazy, and he doesn't want to help out, it's that I didn't give him clear instruction, I didn't ask for what I needed fully. And so, he is sittin  there “Hey, I'm going to take the trash out later after I read this chapter.” So instead, I could go and say, “Hey, You know I really would love the trash to be taken out now because of my need for order and I'm about to sweep,” or whatever. “Could you just take a minute and take it out right now, or within the next half hour after you finish this chapter?” That, that evening is completely different than the other one where I yelled at him, right? (yeah) And it's because I took a moment, and I didn't show up with an automatic reaction to something. And you know and I didn't assume, you know. So, it's been a lifelong practice for me, and I've been a practitioner, well, I say life long, I've been a practitioner for about thirteen years of nonviolent communication but very deeply practicing it and using it in my practice. So, it's life changing, and I really recommend anyone to take a class in nonviolent communication. It will change your life and how you show up. (yeah) V: I love that part about requests too because in the story that you shared, if you went in and you said to your husband and said I really need you to do this now, and they said no, I'm sorry I can't, then the idea to be okay with that - goes back to ownership too. It's my need for order, right? (Right, yeah.) I made the request. K: Yeah, exactly, and it could be something like, “You know what I really don't want to take it out now because I just got this new book, and can I read three chapters and then take it out?” “Sure.” And now in my head it's like okay it'll probably be out before the end of the night. (yeah) And then I walk away. You know, and we're good. (laughter) Connection remains. V: So, when you're emotionally charged like that it's really hard to set that aside, I think that is one of the elements that would take some self-awareness and willingness, right? K: For sure and the nonviolent communication its more difficult the closer you are to someone. Because you care so much and there is so much history there. So, practicing it in my practice is much easier than at home when I'm triggered or something like that. You know and when you're triggered you have the fight, flight, or freeze response, it's a biological response. And if you don't feed that story, that, whatever that automatic story is in your head, that automatic judgment, if you don't feed that, in 90 seconds it can go away. So just know that if you don't feed that by keep spinning that thought in your head, that judgement, like Oh, he's lazy, I have to always do everything. You stop that, you can respond and show up in a way that is in alignment with your values. (yeah) V: And it also then being, is being aware of your values, your needs, your feelings. So, most of us are taught growing up, I don't think I'm being too general, that none of that is important. (laughter) K: Right, and it's really one of the most important things in your life. V: Oh, absolutely. (right) K: The authenticity about how you actually are feeling and what your needs are. And how to get them, you know that's how I think everyone should be taught. It's helped my clients so much. Oh my gosh. It's just so beneficial, because they all get it. The teens get it, the adults get it, once you have the experience of really feeling fully heard about how it is for you and what your needs are, your deeper needs and being able to express those to someone…it's just very gratifying. We never fight on the need level. As you can imagine, no one is going to fight over like “Oh, you need consideration, why would you need that?” You know, we all know we need joy, we need support, we need kindness, we need consideration. Um, effectiveness. We only fight over the strategy of how we get those needs met. So, like in my example, my strategy to get order was to ask him to take the trash out, and that was my strategy, but I didn't do it well because I didn't ask with specifics. And his strategy to get his needs met was to read because his need was for joy and for relaxation. So, like yeah, we're always fighting on the strategy level. And if we can understand that and get down to the need, we're like, okay, you want joy and relaxation I really want order, what can we do about this. We can be on the same page. And we can move to walking together. (yeah) V: I really appreciate that example and the picture in my mind of cooperation and setting aside what I think I know about somebody, because I've been married for 22 years and sometimes, I can think “Oh I know what he's thinking, I know what his motives are.” “I know what's really going on here.” (right) And stopping to recognize that he has needs that he's fulfilling in his way, and he has a right to that. (laughter) K: It's about the relationship and I have a couple's mastermind coming up in July that we're launching. But part of that is exactly what you said, it's those automatic thoughts and judgments about your partner in close, and you know, you could be right, some of the time, but it's still not, it's still not your role to be a mind reader, or to be an assumer. To be making assumptions. What you need to be doing is verifying. Like, “Hey, I'm thinking that I have a thought that you might be feeling angry. Can we, I want to check in with you.” So being compassionately curious is what will lead you to more connection, not assuming, oh I've been with him fifteen years I know exactly what he's thinking. (laughter) you know that's bull shit quite frankly. (it is) You have not verified that. V: And with your kids too, if you torn that around, or with your boss, or your co-worker, wherever you implement that strategy. A lot of my clients have a real hard time speaking their truth, especially in the workplace, so to be willing to spend time learning what their needs are their feelings and take these risks. Can you paint a picture of what they might be, what the cost might be for them if they don't? K: Yeah, well for sure unhappiness, health issues. I myself had some health issues at my old job, they were very resistant to change and support. But um yeah, I think that if you have these skills and you can really be observational about not only what happened but what you need to happen, what you need to have happen, um, you take the judgment out of it. So, a lot of people put their walls up if they feel judged, or if they feel like I'm being judged because I'm a bad manager, or I didn't do this or that. And really if you can be observational and say “When you, At the meeting today when you called on me without letting me know that I needed to provide my numbers at the meeting I felt embarrassed and I felt unsure of myself. And I really you know I really have a need for competence and clarity and I'm wondering if before the meeting next we can go over my numbers or is there a list of things I need to be prepared for?” And that type of thing, even in the most resistant manage, defensive manager, you're not calling them a bad manager, you're telling them what you felt like, what your needs are and making a very clear request.  So that is the key for NVC, using it in the workplace. Effectively, is to make these observational requests, requests based on observation and what your needs are. (yeah) V: It takes, ah, I get a sense of empowerment and taking away, like a game of chess, like, I'll make this move, and they make that move and then I'll make this move, and nobody is talking to each other. (laughter, right) to see what the impact is. And we think well that move didn't work so I'll try this and maybe like the water cooler, we go over there and chat up somebody else about how bad it all is and how ‘they' are so bad and yeah. (yeah, right and you're both making a story about the other person) V: When there is conflict, we often come from a place where somebody has to win, and somebody has to lose, and this method seems to put it on the playing field where both people can win. K: Absolutely, because part of it is, I want to get my needs met but I want to do it in a way that you get your needs met too. (yeah) You know there is a lot of different conflict styles out there. And a lot of us are conflict avoidant because we don't have the skills, that's why, not because we don't want to resolve the problem. And a lot of people come from a place of thinking I'm a compromiser, we'll figure it out, we'll compromise. But let me say that if you feel that compromise is good, I want you to think about this: When you compromise, you are taking your dreams and you're putting half of them on the table before you walk into the room. You're deciding that your dreams are not worth asking for. So, I really want to get people away from thinking that compromise is a good thing. Collaboration is what we need to be doing. Collaborating. What is your dream, what is my dream, we can both get our dream met, let's work on this? And that's what I want to see people do for, to learn about complex, is to be a collaborator. V: I love that. (laughter) I really do. It just feels so empowering and free and nurturing and supportive. K: Yeah, it's definitely the world I want to live in. V: Me too! K: Yeah, that's why I do this work and now I'm getting into a lot of training, which just kind of organically developed but there's a need. And I love that there is a growing hunger for it. Because that gives me so much hope for our world. For peace in our world, and I believe that peace, world peace is possible. In my lifetime. It's a decision we all have to make, individually to learn about conflict resolution and how to show up in a way that is connecting. With your own sense of self and with the other person. V: I can sure see your passion. And feel it, across the line. So, my show is about tiny changes Big Shift, if somebody is not versed in this at all what are some small things that they could do to start their path? K: Yeah, Oh, there are so many. So, one of the things that you can do is, even if you want to set a timer on your phone for periodically you know four times during the day, when that timer goes off just close your eyes and say, “How am I feeling right in this moment?” How am I feeling in this moment? Am I feeling calm, sad, annoyed, frustrated, confused, you know, what are those feelings? And just notice, so just start noticing. That is important, that's the step one, that helps you show up in a way that you want to show up, in an intentional way. That helps you show up in alignment with your values, how you want to show up in the world and helps prevent you from reacting automatically to some stimulus. That's number one, then I think of course the next layer is hum…I'm feeling sad or frustrated, what's that about? Oh, someone cut me off in traffic, that's why I'm feeling frustrated. Okay, alright, what's the need under that? A lot of times it's consideration. (yeah) Pro tip! (laughter) Talking to you all you people that have dogs that are barking in your neighborhood. That's another one. Anyway, just noticing your feelings during the day. Getting into a habit of noticing your feelings. You'll start noticing the sensations too and then it'll come more easily to you. There is a list, you know I sent you a list of feelings and needs, but not all of the feelings and all the needs, but it's a good start for people who haven't been taught to look at their feelings. I work with a lot of lawyers and there's many times when the lawyers like, “I don't know, I don't know what I'm feeling.” And it's like well okay, look at this list. And the list is very nuanced too. Not just mad, it's mad, angry, frustrated, irritable (laughter) and a lot of times when they look, they can pick out a feeling. (yeah) V: Well, I'm really fascinated with this whole topic, and I really, really, really appreciate you being here today. What do you have coming up; you mentioned a workshop coming up for couples? Do you want to say the dates and the specifics, how somebody could get in touch with you if they had an interest in that? K: Yeah, there's a couple's mastermind coming up July 10, and it's 9am to 1pm eastern time by zoom. And you can show up as a couple or you can show up individually, you don't have to be married, they can be for non-traditional couples too, anyone, any human. And you're going to learn a lot of these skills, actually we're doing a lot of NVC. NVC is a sixteen-hour training so I'm giving you some tools and introduction on how you can use these right now in your relationship and then encouraging you to take a longer class because I believe in mentorship and professional growth training. So yeah, that's July 10th and we're limiting it to only 20 participants. 20 couples or individuals. And that's going to be $497 and it has a bonus of one hour working one on one with me. (Kelly) So after the training you get an hour, the couple or the individual, where we go over the training and you get to talk to me about your specific questions or situation. And I'm adding this because I know that we often go to workshops and then we don't implement well. (right) Over time, and I want these skills to be part of your routine as a couple, how you treat each other, how you show up for yourself. So, I'm doing that. It also comes with a 100% guarantee, if you don't find value in it, I'm happy to give you your money back although I've never had to do that because we know these skills are needed and it'll add ease to your life, and joy to your relationship. So, I'm doing that, and I still have my practice, my mediation practice. So, I work with businesses and individuals to help resolve their issue out of court. Work one on one, and having this facilitator, I'm a third-party neutral facilitator, I don't act as an attorney when I mediate. And I help them bridge that communication gap. And have a one-on-one session with each person beforehand so they can have the experience of feeling fully heard and talk about the challenges and their hopes and how they want to show up at mediation. And it gives me such a great background to develop the right agenda to make the most efficient use of time. So, I'm doing that, and I have that couples program coming up and I'm just so thrilled about it. And they can reach me through my website, kellymcgrathlaw.com. Or email me: Kelly@kellymcgrathlaw.com Or my phone number is 850-273-8698. V: Perfect, I'm going to bring up a link because you mentioned your materials that you gave me for a free gift, and I want to make sure that I say this right. K: Yep, you'll have a feelings and needs sheet so you can work off of that, and there are a few other things in there too, but we talked about those too. And you know you can just talk to your spouse or your partner or your child and say, “I'm feeling frustrated” and hand them the list, and say, take some needs guesses, what do you think I'm needing right now? (yeah) They don't have to say anything else but maybe you're needing support or maybe some consideration. And it's like yeah, okay, yeah. V: Or connection or belonging. (right) V: I think the easiest place for people to find that is https://linktr.ee.com/vickidawn.  I'll put the link for that podcast free gift on that link. And as we wrap up do you have any follow up comments? K: I just want to encourage people; you can grow in your skills with communication, and you can grow with your skills with conflict resolution. You just need to seek out some mentors and some good workshops, but everyone can. And let's do that, let's do that for each other, for the people we love. We can resolve our conflicts peacefully. V: Yeah, I appreciate that a lot. And I think this seems so simple when you explain it and as I was reading about it before our show today, and it seems so simple, why isn't this taught in school? K: Yeah, well you know it's great to know that it is now being taught in school. My mentor, Dr. Cindy Bigbie has a method called the Bigbie method where she's teaching teachers and students this in schools. V: Oh, that's beautiful. K: Having the next generation come up learning how to really talk from the heart. I have so much hope for our future. I really do. V: I do too. Well thank you so much for being here and sharing with us today. And for the audience, if you like our show, please forward it to your friends and family, ask them to listen in. Subscribe, if you like it leave a review and I'm open to emails from my listeners – info@vickidawn.com. Send your concerns or questions or things you'd like to hear on our show. You can join my Facebook group – creating connections, you can find it on the link tree I mentioned. As I say goodbye, remember you create your beautiful life, one moment one step at a time.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. We Make Books Ep. 62 Transcription After intro: [00:26] Kaelyn: We're talking today about reader tension and tense situations and managing these things. And you know getting the, kinda grabbing everyone and wanting to be like ‘this is important and there's peril and stakes here, and you should pay attention to this.' Rekka: This was another topic that was suggested to us by an uncredited listener, because I failed to write down all the people who suggested a very long list of topics that we will be going through. So I apologize, feel free to @ us on Twitter and take credit for the topic. But the original question posed was how to manage reader stress, and I assume they mean the tension and anxiety that our reader feels as they go through your plot. Because, as Kaelyn pointed out, you don't want to get so anxious and wound up over a plot that you can't finish the story and you need to protect yourself for self care reasons and back away. K: We're interpreting this question as not managing the external stress of readers. There's generally not a lot a book or an author can do about that, so please don't try. R: Although! A good book can really help you escape. K: Absolutely, yes. Maybe a book that's just full of pictures of puppies. R: Also good! K: Yeah. R: Yeah. So, the anxiety and tension that we're talking about is being cast upon the reader intentionally to draw them into your story. But how do you make sure you don't go too far, and how do you ramp up tension where you want it so that they aren't just kinda reading it and being like ‘I don't care about any of this.' K: Building tension is, it's difficult. For two reasons: one, it's a hard thing to do in writing, but then two, it's also very difficult to place it in a story. Let's qualify here depending on your genre, if you're writing a suspense thriller that's just going to be a tense situation [laughing] throughout the book. Most books, I would argue the majority of books, have some sort of conflict in them. There's going to be a point at which things come to a head. It could be physical, it could be mental, it could be, you know, strictly verbal confrontation. It could be characters that never actually meet but you know were seeing each other's perspectives as they, I dunno interact over the computer, they're both trying to hack the same database at the same time.  K:I have a friend who trains people in various business ventures, and one of the things she always says is “conflict is crucible.” And what she's kinda saying there is that when you're trying to solve a problem you have to resign yourself to some conflict, because conflict helps you get information, it helps you understand what you're looking at, it helps you understand the stakes. And I think that applies well to writing, because the conflict, first of all, builds richer characters, it builds a better storyline, it helps us understand motivations and actions better. But it's also really engaging. That's kinda what we're here for. R: Yeah, I would say that a story without conflict is going to be a very milquetoast kind of story. It doesn't matter what scale the conflict happens on, but - K: Mhm. R: - you want some kind of ‘what's going to happen' to linger, right up until the end of your story, you just want to kind of change like ‘ooh! Now that happened, what's going to happen now?' You know, it kind of elevates in stages. So every story is going to have conflict that's on a - that is proportional to the scale of the story being told. So, it doesn't always have to be end of the world scenarios; it can be ‘this person needs to sort their life out, and will they get that job they want, and will their roommate discover that they're actually a sorcerer?' K: I mean I hope so. R: Right? Those kinds of conflicts can be big or small; it's the stakes of the story. And you want your reader invested in the stakes of the story, so you want them to feel a little bit of anxiety about how the story's going to go. If they don't, then they can drift away from the book at any point and forget to pick it up ever again. K: I look back at things that I read as an adult, and things that I read as a kid, and the like really intense parts where you're like trying to keep yourself from skipping ahead on the page - R [overlapping]: [giggling] K: - and you know reading as fast as possible - R: Kaelyn that is cheating. K: I know! But like I - tell my brain. [laughing] R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: You know but where you're like ‘oh my god I gotta know what happens, I gotta know what happens!' And then sometimes - R: Just so everyone knows, as an editor Kaelyn wants to know the end - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: Like as soon as the author knows it. So don't feel like she just skips to the end in books she picks up at the bookstore, no she wants the spoilers all the time. K: I need to know the end to a story. I'm not one of those people who waits ‘til a series comes out to read the books, because I can't wait that long - R [overlapping]: Mhm! K: - to be [???], I need a fix in there somewhere. But this is why I'm like weirdly into unsolved mystery kinda things, because I just need to know what happened, like [laughing] I always say if I could have a superpower, it's not that I want to time travel. I don't wanna like go back and interact and change things. R: Or go forward and get lottery numbers. K: Yeah I just wanna be able to like astral project or something so I can just, I just wanna see what happened. I just wanna know what actually happened, you know, who shot JFK? What'd they do with the aliens at Rosland? Did we land on the moon? I mean - R: Roswell. K: Roswell, yes. Why did I say Rosland? R: Maybe you know something we don't because you went back in time. K: It's possible. It's very possible. But yeah, I am someone who like feeds off of that tension. And I love intrigue, I love building the story, and by the way I just touched on another way you build tension here, which is not always necessarily conflict; sometimes it's mystery. Sometimes the stakes are trying to find something, or figure something out, or solve a puzzle, or learn someone's true identity. There was definitely a heyday for this sort of thing in the 90s and 2000s, especially with young adult literature, where a lot of the tension that was building in the book was people trying to get answers about a mysterious prophecy or an object or find a lost relic. R: Ohhh, I love a good lost relic. K: Ah, the best. Romantic tension is also a thing. R: You would have to imagine it is, because in the romance novels like that is - K [overlapping]: Yup. R: - the main plot of the book. So a will-they-won't-they is a ‘what's going to happen next?' K: Yeah, a will-they-won't-they, or how will they get through this, will they ever find each other again. So I think when we say like tension in the book we're picturing like a big Lord of the Rings style - R: Oh I'm imagining the boulder in Indiana Jones just hovering over everybody. K: Okay! Or that, you know we're thinking of like direct action and conflict. But tension can be built a lot of different ways. It's not always ‘I'm going to fight this knight now to free the dragon,' and yes in my scenario we free dragons, we don't slay them. R: Absolutely! K: Dragons are people too. R: Yeah. K: Creating tension for readers is part of what's compelling about a book. Now, sometimes these get a little out of hand. I'm gonna qualify that again, genre matters a lot here. If we're talking about like a spy thriller, if we're talking about a murder mystery, a suspense thriller, something like that. Yeah, you should go in expecting a lot of tension, you should know what you're getting out of that genre. Rekka, can you think of any books offhand that you had to like put down and walk away from? R: Because there was too much tension? K: Because the situation, the intensity of the situation was making you uncomfortable. R: Hmm. K: I can think of a couple. I'm not gonna say what they are, but I've definitely had that happen. R: So you're asking if that's happened? K: Yes. Has that ever happened to you? R: No. I've never put down a book because I was uncomfortable with high levels of tension; I've put down books because there was little tension and I wasn't grabbed. K: I've got a really thick skin when it comes to this stuff, there isn't a lot that bothers me. There's been two books that, one where it was just like the violence and the tension was just getting gratuitous. With that case it wasn't that it was making me uncomfortable. It was almost like coming full circle and getting pedantic. This is so ridiculous it's almost erased the tension, I'm no longer able to suspend my disbelief. R: Okay. So, what does that say about the author's ability to manage the tension? K: Not doing a great job. R: What was broken, if you wanna use that word, in that case? K: I think in this case, there was too much trying to shock people. Trying to shock the readers reading it. R: Okay, is that tension though? K: The scenario of the book was a group of people going through some kind of a building, I don't even remember what it was, and they're getting picked off by monsters and booby traps the whole time. It started out well, because it's dark, there's a lot of sounds and things and nobody's quite sure what's like, is that us, is it something else, is something following us, we know this place is full of danger okay we just have to get through here, and then what was happening was characters were dying. They were dying in horrible ways, and they were being very - described in great detail. And again, I have a really thick skin for this. That kind of stuff doesn't bother me. But what was happening was it was actually getting to the point that it was breaking the tension a little bit, because they were losing me there.  K: So I think the author's intention was to really up the scale and the stakes, because it wasn't just like ‘and a hole opened, and Jonathan fell through and we heard screams and then nothing.' Like first of all it was breaking the tension of the story stopping to describe all of this stuff. But beyond that, it was - I don't know. It was a very strange reaction, a very strange feeling, where it was kind of like I can't tell if this is making me nauseous or if I'm bored. R: Okay. This is making me think of the movie Thirteen Ghosts. K: Yes. R: Does this, is this ringing true for you? K: That is definitely ringing true for me. I had a similar experience with that movie. On the flip side, the other one that I had to put down and walk away had to do with sex. The tension that they were building with this couple that wasn't really a couple, and the dichotomy and the power struggles here, and the clear anxiety of one character vs not the other that I think was supposed to be building romantic tension, and ooh they're so into each other, it didn't at all. R: Okay. K: It was actually, I can't read this. As I've been talking through both of these you sort of pointed something out: was it the tension or was it things that writers were trying to use to create tension that weren't actually tension-building devices? R: Right. It sounds like people are trying to use some visuals and elements that are, let's say, flashes in the pan - K: Mhm. R: - in terms of the effect they have on the reader, versus something that's actually building a landscape over which the story is traveling. And it's the landscape I would argue that you want, because jumpscares are great for a horror movie, but once you've calmed down, that's all there is. Versus actually building, in that case, dread or fear. So things that have an intense effect but the effect is not lasting I don't think are going to be what you want to use when you're trying to control how the reader paces themself to get to the end of your book. K: I think in the example I used with the violence one, you know you have these characters, they're trying to get from point A to point B, and they're getting picked off or killed horribly one by one. And on some level I understand what the author was trying to do there. Instead of simply saying ‘and this person's dead now,' they're upping the intensity of the situation by showing that they're not dead, they're dying horribly. So you're getting the collective fear and horror built into the group of the remaining survivors so you're empathizing with them more. In that scenario, I see what they were doing. They were trying to use this gore and this violence to instill an intensity in you, but it got to the point that it was too much. R: So it wasn't flash in the pan, it was just overreaching? K: Overkill, if I can make that pun? [overlapping] A little bit, please? R [overlapping]: You cannot. I've checked with our producer and - K: [grunts] R: - they're shaking their head. K: Alright, fair. [chuckling] There can be times that you just take the device you're using too far, and it jumps the shark a little bit and becomes ridiculous. R: In the case of something getting to the point of ridiculosity, are they even employing the tools that would work and just overdoing it, are they overutilizing the tools, leaning on them too heavily, abusing them, or are they in the wrong toolbox entirely? K: Exactly, yeah. R: No, I'm asking you. [laughing] K: Oh. [laughing] Um no I was going to say those are all things to consider. I think that's something you have to work with an editor on, and I think that's something that you have to have readers give you feedback about, because this for a lot of writers becomes a can't see the trees for the forest scenario. You're so deep into this, you're not reading this for the first time like most readers will be, you wrote this. Rekka you tell me, when you're rereading things that you wrote, either for fun or doing revisions, does your heart beat a little faster when you get to these scenarios? R: If it's been long enough that I forget where I'm going with them. [laughing] K: Exactly, yeah. R: Because you know what you're trying to build to, and when you're trying to write it sometimes you can feel like you're being sooo hamfisted about it. K: Yeah. Writers need help for contextualizing this, I think. Because first of all you know what's gonna happen, hopefully. [laughing] Second, you've been through it so many times it doesn't have the same punch, the same meaning that it did. R: That's one of the frustrating things about being a writer, trying to know whether you're being effective. You burn through beta readers because you need somebody who hasn't read it before to tell you whether it's working. K: Yeah so circling back to is it too much, are you leaning into it, are you in the wrong toolbox entirely, that can be a really hard thing for writers to understand. I've definitely read books where I've felt like after a few revision paths, every time the author was going through and trying to up the scare factor or the intensity factor in everything, I think that's something where you need an editor or a very good friend to help you there. R: [laughing] K: It's a balancing act. You have to maintain believability. There is a difficult-to-track issue of understanding when a situation is intense and when it's not tense enough or too intense. I've definitely read books where important things have happened, and I didn't realize that was an important thing because the writing and the way the characters were behaving didn't indicate to me that that was a significant event. And if you're going ‘oh well, what does that have to do with it?', that's building intensity. R: I recently gave someone feedback that said like ‘hey, I think this moment needs to slow down for a second, and I know there's a lot of other stuff going on, but like if you don't linger on this, it's not going to have the impact you want. K: You don't wanna have to be in a position where you gotta insert a character in the story jumping up and down screaming at the reader that something that's happening is important, but if you can't signal to them in some way that it is, that's not great. R: You have to figure out how to signal it without really putting a wavy-armed balloon man in front of it. K [laughing]: Yes. Exactly. It's difficult, and there's a reason that authors that can do this well are very successful in writing, you know, murder mysteries and spy thrillers and suspense novels and stuff. Because there're people that eat that up. That's like what they live for. I can take it or leave it. But then there are people who avoid it like the plague. R: Like you said, genre has a lot to do with it. We're getting to a point which I think is good where people are starting to put content notes on books just like you would get at the beginning of a TV show. So you know this has depictions of graphic violence, sexuality - um, there's a difference between sexuality and nudity - endangerment of a child, trauma, stuff like that. And that helps people dial in, like ‘do I wanna read this book, is this the kind of intensity I'm looking for or not?' K: Now, and that said, there may be things that happen in the book that it never would've occurred to you to put a content warning about. R: And hopefully maybe your beta readers can highlight a couple things too. K: What I'm getting at is there's going to be things that happen - in books, in movies, in TV shows - that are upsetting for a specific person for a specific reason. R: Mhm. K: There's no way to predict all of these - R [overlapping]: Yeah. K: And try to compensate and notify for that. It sounds terrible to say stick to the obvious and take in the advice of others, but that is what I would say. And I'm not saying don't write these things. Be aware of what you're writing. R: Be aware of what you're writing and then be willing to take the responsibility for the people who are going to be upset by that and say like ‘yes, this is something I felt was necessary to the plot, but I promise you I gave it thought and hopefully the people who'd be extra upset by it will be warned by friends or somebody before they pick it up.' K: For anyone who's sitting at home going - and to be honest I don't think many of our listeners think this, but maybe who knows - ‘why do I have to bend over backwards to accommodate this?' You know what, honestly, you don't. R: It's a choice you make, yeah. [chuckles] K: But it's really shitty not to when it's so easy to do. And believe me, people who suffer from particular anxieties or trauma and everything, they're ultra-aware of this stuff. They're typically not going to go into a store, pick up a random book, and say ‘I'll just read this now' because, exactly for that reason: they don't wanna put themselves in a position where the intensity of the book is going to induce an anxiety spiral. And if you think that doesn't happen, I don't know what to tell you at this point because you're wrong. [laughing] So! R: And it's also not necessarily the intensity of the book, but the specific situations and the intensity of that person's personal experience laid over top of that. K: Yeah. Exactly. So, for readers who are saying “how do I keep myself safe from this kind of thing” so to speak, read content warnings. Read reviews online. Here's a thing: read the bad reviews, read the people who didn't like the book, because the ones who are complaining about things are gonna give you a little bit more insight probably, into areas that you might find distressing. R: And you can always just post a question on Twitter, like “hey - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: “ - here's something that really bothers me in books; I'm thinking of picking up this one, anything you wanna warn me about, I'd appreciate.” K [overlapping]: Yeah. You know, I'm not saying this to put all of the onus upon the reader who's concerned about this, but, I mean do your research. If you know this is something that's important to you and something you need to manage and minimize as best you can, the best judge of character for that's gonna be you. R: For the writer, you know, sensitivity reads are not a bad idea. Like we said, we can't cover everything with a single sensitivity reader but they might be able to give you more insight. If your intensity of your plot is overlaid with a certain kind of life experience, I guarantee you can find a sensitivity reader for it. And if you don't, ask around and someone else will be able to help you. K: Yeah but I mean beyond that, content warnings do a lot. R: You can't cover everything and everyone, like - K [overlapping]: No. R: - Kaelyn was saying, you can give it a fair attempt. K: Listen, if your fair attempt is something along the lines of ‘contains violence, gore, and depictions of furries,' like, that's that's giving everyone at least a heads-up of what's in here. R: And a Venn diagram of figuring out where they fall in that. [chuckles] K: I will defend the writers a little bit here in saying that there's only so much you can do, to a certain point. [laughing] R: In order to indicate everything that happens in your book, you literally have already done that, you've written the book. You can be broad and you can welcome people to send you a note and ask you if they have a specific concern they're afraid of running into. K: I would call it a good faith gesture to do that. And, I think if there's parts in there where you're going ‘I wonder if I should explain this,' the answer is, maybe decide what it is and then just mention that that's a thing that's gonna happen in there. R: Okay, so this is managing the readers' stress literally, and kind of the external forces as we said we weren't going to cover. K: Well I mean I was joking about just like daily life stress. [laughing] R: Right, but I mean this is kind of tied to their personal experience. So, going back to considering it now a positive to build stress and anxiety, what would you say to an author who brought you their story, and it reads as a little flat. What would you tell them, how to increase anxiety in the reader, by which I mean tension in the story? K: I'm gonna flip that and ask has that ever happened to you? I know the answer to that is no because I read your writing [laughing], so! R: You know, I am really surprised by how many people have told me that my books are really tense. K: Yeah my blood pressure's definitely spiked a few times over the course of events. [laughing] R: Is it just because of Hankirk? Like is it just because he's infuriating? K: It's a lot of things, um - R [overlapping]: [laughing] K: And actually you've touched on something that I think is very interesting that you do in your writing - and this is another kind of tension that I think we don't really appreciate as a different kind of tension to build - is hopelessness. And despair. R: Aw, now I'm mad. I didn't mean to be hopeless! K: No, you weren't, but this sense of like ‘what are we going to do?' R: Mm. K: And things just like um, a sense of despair and despondency, and I'm not necessarily talking about - R [overlapping]: Look, my characters have to come back from like their lowest low, like I'm gonna make that low real fuckin' low. [laughing] K: Yeah, exactly, but that's a kind of intensity too. So yeah, you definitely do not suffer from not having well-built intensity. R: You're avoiding my question. You turned it back around on me, as though we needed to analyze me, but we've just clarified we don't need to analyze me - K [overlapping]: No, no. R: What do you say to an author who is not me, who needs a little dose of, I guess some me-ness? K: I'm very much into helping writers solve their own problems. R: Yeah you do that. K: Yeah. I find that authors frequently know there's a problem and at least have the inkling of an idea of how to fix it. I would write them back and ask them, first do you have an outline of your story? If you don't, well, depending on our timeline here, write one; if we don't have time for that, I want you to highlight for me what you think the most important points of the story are for the plot. And depending on what was going on, I might tell them I'm gonna do the same. And let's see if we match up. I like to do that one a lot. R: Yeah you do. K: I want them to highlight the most important parts of the plot, and then I'd want them to pull out some areas where maybe it's more introductory, more worldbuilding, more establishing, and compare how those are written versus the important plot points. And look at your language, look at the way you're communicating with this, because this is - and I won't go too far into the weeds on this because it's slightly off topic, but it is worth mentioning - your language changes when writing intense situations.  K: The way you describe things, the way characters communicate with each other, the way they take in their scenery, a lot of times you'll notice writers that do this well have short-clipped sentences that match the franticness of the situation. Minimal description, because they don't have time to stop and look and describe something. So I would say that you know look at this and if these very important points of the story, these parts where it should be intense where the reader should be concerned and involved and engaged, and you're writing it with the same tone and cadence that you do with the part where they're walking through a meadow - R [chuckles]: The meadow is full of velociraptors. K: Ugh. You're describing heaven. R [muffled]: Stay out of the long grass! K [laughing]: I'm just picturing them with flower crowns now. R: Ohhh, they're so happy. K: [laughing] R: Beautiful queens!  K: [with accent] “Don't go into the long grass!”  R: We really just need to admit that this is a Jurassic Park fancast. K: Yeah we do talk about it a lot. So, I would say that that's a good place to start. And in terms of like exercises you can do, read it out loud. Act it out! I stood in a room with a manuscript and like held in front of me and like done both parts of the characters and imitated how they would be yelling at each other or what have you, just to make sure that like it sounds okay and it's coming across the right way. Because if I'm doing this by like kinda like staging a play here,  then hopefully you're getting that across to the reader. I think also developing your characters and having a good idea of how they would react in intense situations. If they're acting the same across the book no matter what, well, I don't know, maybe they've got a really good valium prescription. R: [laughing] K: You should see changes in not just their actions but their body language, their speech. If Rekka and I were trying to diffuse a bomb right now, I wouldn't be telling “okay, so um cut the green wire, um,” okay and then like imitating the scene from Jurassic Park where John Hammond's giving Ellie instructions over the radio and he's like talking so calm and everything - but that's a good example because even though he's talking very calm and walking her through everything, his voice is very intense. R: And he's having an argument behind the scenes. [laughing] K [overlapping]: Yes. He's having an argument with Ian, but like his voice is very intense. And now granted, movies get to use music to help with this kind of thing. R: Yeah they cheat. K: Yeah but if I were having a conversation with Rekka and it was a genuinely tense situation where I'm trying to give her instructions on how to diffuse a bomb - now granted– Okay so we're getting a little sidetracked here but I just wanna point out Rekka says he's having a funny argument with Ian, part of the reason for that was the shock value of the next scene. R: Right. K: You're luring the reader into a false sense of security of going like, oh look it's fine, John and Ian are arguing, Ellie's got this, and I think - “Mr. Hammond I think we're back in business!” And then an arm falls on her. Oh no, wait first the raptor attacks her, then the arm falls on her. That's a good instance of diffusing a situation only to re-intensify it immediately. If I were talking to Rekka and I was talking even in the same tone that like we talk in this podcast, like ‘well you know I guess if you wanted, like, so think about the green wire, think about why the green wire is important to this bomb. And if you take the green wire out what's going to happen?' Like that, you know, that's not a good way to write that scene. R: Yeah ‘cause meanwhile Mr. Arnold's arm has fallen on my shoulder and I am flipping out. [chuckles] K: I always wondered why the velociraptor didn't eat that, or how that happened. Like - R: I assume it like got bit off and then went flying and got caught in that little corner - K: I guess, but like it seems - R: Look, they needed it to fall on Ellie's shoulder. K: I know, but like it seems like it was in like wires, and it's like how did that get there? Did the raptor go back and - R [overlapping]: This is, this is going back to the believability of the situation and is it going to suck your reader out of the moment and go, ‘wait, how?' K: I remember being 10 years old and watching that and going, ‘how did that get there?' R: I also had that thought but I didn't linger on it, because - K [overlapping]: Ah, no. R: Ellie was being chased by a raptor, dragging a big flashlight, and I was worried like the flashlight was gonna get stuck on something and she wouldn't be able to keep going. K: But yeah it's, that would be kind of where I would start. And if the problems are still persisting, if we still can't get to a place where I feel like okay I understand that something important is happening, I understand that there's peril here, I understand that these two characters have left very angry at each other, that sort of thing, then that's a different conversation. That's a conversation about writing style and technique. And, that's harder to fix. R: You can't just add six more raptors and fix it. K: Six more raptors fixes everything, Rekka. R: Okay. Back up. You can just add - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - six more raptors; there's your fix for everything. K: Yes. R: But you do have to exercise it with extreme care. K: More raptors! R: - because people will pick up if you just do it every time. K: Yeah. If your solution to everything is add more raptors - R: Get your own solution - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - my solution to everything is add more raptors. K: Yeah that's, that's fine. R: Yeah, I thought so. K: It solves multiple problems, not just intensity of the situation problems, so. R: Mhm! K [chuckles]: I think that's it. If it's something you're struggling with, I hate to say this, but like this is something you just kinda have to work on. It's one of those style and technique things that, I won't say can't be taught because absolutely you can take writing classes that would help you with this, but I think it's something that also just comes from practice and learning. R: And I would suggest doing it with short fiction, because that's a really great way to learn how to control the pedal. K: Absolutely. R: To adjust your pressure on your reader. And also to build it quickly, because in a short story you don't have a lot of room, so it's a boiled-down condensed version. And also being shorter you get more practice, ‘cause you get to write more of them. K: Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, that's my final thoughts on managing intensity in books is: it's not easy. There's a reason people who do it well make a lot of money off of it. R: It's not like if you aren't making a ton of money off of it that you're no good at it. To that point, pick up a book and see how someone else is doing it. K: One of the best ways to get good at writing is reading a lot. R: Yep. And steal everyone else's tricks. Except mine; the raptors are mine. K: Only Rekka's raptors. Ahh, that's what we need, a book series called Rekka's Raptors! R: Vick's Vultures but - K: I know. R: But it's dinosaurs. K: I'm already unfolding it in my head, trust me. R: Oh yeah. K: [laughing] R: Send me the outline. [giggles] K: See this is the problem is, I have all of these ideas of books that I would love to exist in the world and I need someone to write them for me. [laughing] R: That's what I said, send me an outline, I work really well off an outline! K: Yeah. So I think that's, that's the end of the episode. Hopefully it wasn't too much for you. R: Even if it's not the end of the episode, we're done. [laughing] K: Yeah. I think that - R [overlapping]: The raptors got us. We're in the long grass. K [laughing]: Does he say ‘the long grass' or ‘the elephant grass?' R: You know what? I recently read an article about how we all remember lines differently - K [overlapping]: Yes. R: - because of the different aspects we're focused on. So let's just assume that anybody quoting Jurassic Park to the point where you get the quote, has said it right. K: Okay. That's fair. R: I think that's like a way to be kinder to other people. K: Tension! It's good. R: The right amount is good. The wrong amount is bad. K: Yes. I can't even say in moderation because sometimes it's not moderation that makes it a - R: Sometimes the whole point is not moderating it. Except moderating the effect that you want in terms of, ‘hey, I the author have control and am moderating how much I want,' there. That's - K: Yep. R: That's the moderation that we're talking about. [laughing] K: Exactly. R: We should stop. K: [laughing] R: This episode isn't going to have a nice end, it's just going to - K: Ooh, maybe it just cuts to black mid sentence. [laughing] R: Well that's not a great pressure valve on your tension. Yeah no, let us know how this episode needs to end. You can @ us on Twitter and Instagram @wmbcast, you can find us and all our old episodes at wmbcast.com. Please remember to subscribe, please remember especially to leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and if you somehow just really wanna support my love of velociraptors, you can go to Patreon.com/wmbcast and send us some financial support, and I promise I will spend it on dinosaur plushies. K: Oh, I was gonna say velociraptor food. R: Well, I am the velociraptor food. K: Which now that I'm saying it I think is just goats, so. [laughing] R: No that's T. rexes, and it didn't work anyway. K: Yeah, they dropped the cow in the velociraptor. R: Yeah that's true - oh wait am I a velociraptor? Because I've been eating cow this week. K: You have, yeah. R: Hmm. K: Hmmmm. R: We'll have to investigate this in a future episode. K: Hey, because the mystery is building tension. R: Yeeeah, that's it. K [laughing]: Alright everyone, thanks very much for listening. R: For your indulgence. K: [laughing] R: Take care everyone!

On this week episode, the gentlemen talk about Shock G passing, UFC 261, MCU, Mortal Kombat, Trade unions within countries, American pride, Dave Chappelle podcast and other subjects worth being cancelled. This episode features @willie_figs & Poon

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: So it’s funny you picked this when I was still studying history, that was something we always had to consider. Is this group, is this person part of determining where they fit into historical context as determining do they have agency? Can they act on their own behalf? Structure is what keeps someone in place; agency is what allows them to act freely. Rekka: Where would you put Odysseus, in this context? K: I would make Odysseus a failed attempt at agency. R: [laughing] K: Well, maybe failed agency isn’t the right--because he is displaying agency. He’s trying to do something, and he’s having to frequently overcome obstacles. That said, those obstacles are things that keep happening to him, rather than him directly engaging. R: Right. K: So it’s a little bit of a, uh. R: Weird example. K: No it was a good one, I liked it. R: No it’s a good example but it’s not a good role model for agency in your novels. K: Odysseus isn’t a good role model for a lot of reasons. R [laughing]: That’s just one of them. K: [laughing] R: Be the person who ties yourself to the mast, rather than give in to the sirens. Actually fuck it, give in to the sirens. It’s 2021, let’s just go for it. K [laughing]: That’s a very bad--I feel like 2020 was the year to give into the sirens. [laughing] R: Yeah, but what is 2021 but 2020 persevering? K: No, we’re slowly defeating it. We’re claiming some agency for ourselves. R: I am still in this room. K: [laughing] R: I have always been in this room. How are we defeating anything? K: I think I was born in this room. R: Kaelyn, have you and I met for smoked meats in a restaurant? K: We haven’t. R: Right. So, nothing has changed. K: Yeah. R: Have we hung out in a library with random strangers at the same table? K: No. Some of whom are handwriting books. R: Yeah, no. This is not happening. So today I called you here to talk about agency. K: So in that scenario do I have agency? Because I made the decision to join you. But-- R: But--are you allowing this topic to happen? Or are you actively engaging in the expression of our ideas? K: Oh both. R: [laughing] K: Definitely. R: Once you get past some of the other, like, identify your theme, and helpful advice for writing like that-- K: Strengthen this character arc, you know, the really nice vague feedback. R: The really helpful, helpful specific feedback. You might also end up hearing that your character needs more agency in a scene, or in the story overall. And as with the others, this can be really helpful advice. If you know what it means. K: Yeah um, it I think falls into the category of frustratingly vague advice that is absolutely rooted in important context. R: But it’s also really true. K: Yes, yeah. R: Which is just the worst part. There’s nothing worse than vague advice that is also correct. K: It is vague advice, but I think when you’re dealing with things like ‘work on your character’s agency,’ ‘strengthen this arc,’ ‘identify the themes in your story,’ those are big picture things. So. Definition—as always love to start off with that—uh, agency in general, the definition is “an action or intervention, especially as to produce a particular event.” Acting, essentially. Taking action. Doing something. Trying to influence the outcome. R: Not just action but pro-action. K: Yes. For characters in books, agency is basically when a character can make choices and act on their own behalf. R: What is it about agency that gets turned into a secret agency that acts against aliens, or whatever--I’m just playing around with etymology here-- K: [laughing] R: But how’s that word get turned into that meaning? K: The way I always took that was that an agency is meant to act on behalf of a group of people or towards a certain end. So, if we wanna take S.H.I.E.L.D. - R: Okay. K: So agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Their job, their directive, is to protect Earth from large-scale global threats. Everything they do, every action they take, is to further that outcome. Real world example: the CIA, Counter-Intelligence Agency. They have a very specific job. It’s to try and out-maneuver, out-intelligence if you will, foreign and domestic hostile powers. R: Okay so the word is not trans-mutated in any way, in the way that it’s applied to an organization. It still means taking proactive action toward a goal. K: Yeah, so I did look up the definition of agency in that regard: “a business or organization established to provide a particular service, typically one that involves organizing transactions between two other parties.” R: So like, a literary agent. K: There you go. Here’s a good example, the Environmental Protection Agency. R: Mhm. K: Their directive, their job is to protect the environment. What do they do? They organize, they create scenarios, be they either laws or policies or transactions even, that further their goal of protecting the environment. R: This is a group of people that are acting for one goal. In our writing, when we talk about agency, we’re generally referring to character agency. As in we have a main character, they are serving as our POV - point of view - and think of that term as the window through which you experience the story. Your viewpoint into this story and this world. So, everything that this character chooses to do is how you experience the story. So by acting on a desire, they create tension as to whether there will be an obstacle that they can overcome, whether they make a decision to do something that frightens them a lot, or whatever - you get to experience that tension. So if this character goes with the flow - K: [laughing] R: - how much tension do you get to experience? K: Yeah so what this means when you get this feedback, ‘I need you to work on your character’s agency here,’ is that it means the character is being very passive. They’re being more reactive than proactive. Oh I’ve got a good example: Twilight. R: Bella is a classic example and often referenced example of a character who doesn’t actually do much. And this is part of that Mary Sue criticism that gets used in the wrong places a lot, but in this case what we’re talking about is Bella is a bodysuit for you to crawl into, and see this world. K: Well Bella is almost worse than that. In some cases Bella is an object. She is sort of a MacGuffin that furthers this story. Something I always like to trot out is, if this character weren’t here, would things go that differently? R: [laughing] K: Now, in Twilight yes they would. Because a lot of conflict, a lot of the story, whatever, does center around Bella, but it is more just the fact that she exists than anything else. If she were a particularly tasty cow that all of the vampires also wanted to eat, well - that’d be a different story too. [laughing] R: Yeah, that’s a weird one. K: No, but if she were something like a magic ring that lets the vampires turn back into humans or something, you could possibly just sub her in with a magic ring. And a lot of those story elements could still happen. R: So is your character interchangeable with an inanimate object? K [laughing]: My favorite one, ever, that I promise I’ll stop on this side note - Indiana Jones. R: Mhm. K: - is completely irrelevant to the first movie. If he weren’t there, everything would go exactly the same way. That said, Indiana Jones has agency. R: He is trying. K: He’s trying. He’s not doing the best job, but he’s trying. Um so, you can have a character that maybe if they weren’t there things would progress as normal. My whole point is Indiana Jones, regardless of whether or not he not only shows up, exists, the storyline with Marion and getting the Ark of the Covenant, we still end up with the Nazis opening the Ark of the Covenant on a remote island. R: Just turns out it was a bad idea. [chuckles] K [laughing]: Just turns out you shouldn’t go poking around in these things. R: Yes. And that had more to do with Belloq being his agency to, as he put it, take whatever Indiana Jones had, and possess it himself. K [overlapping]: Yes. R: And then him not being able to resist looking in the Arc. Now, had the Arc made it to Hitler, would Hitler have known how to use it? I mean, he studied all this stuff. It’s very possible that he might’ve put it to more diabolical use, rather than just frying himself as Belloq did. K [overlapping]: Yeah. Yes. Um, you know, in Twilight, the character that has agency there is not Bella, it’s Edward. R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: He’s the one who’s making all the decisions, he’s the one who’s making the choices. He chose to stay and pursue Bella. He chose to let her know that he was a vampire. He chose to eventually make her a vampire. R: Mhm. K: Bella is a thing that all of this is happening to. R: The prize to be won. K: Yeah. Bella’s a very passive character, and there’s points in the story where she does make decisions, but the choices then are even things that are forced upon her. R: Here’s an example of not, apparently, including much agency in your character, and still having an incredibly successful book series. K: And movies. R: So as with all advice- K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: - feel free to break the rules and have a smashing success and good on you. K: There is an exception to every rule to be sure. But, as you kinda said right at the get-go, one of the biggest criticisms of Bella is that she is an empty skin suit for the reader to crawl into and make themselves feel as though they are the star of the story. People who have agency don’t feel like that. It’s part of character development. If Bella were making a lot of choices and decisions and stuff, you’d have readers going “Well that’s not what I’d do, why would she do that, that’s so ridiculous.” And then you distance yourself from that character because you’re establishing them as a fully realized person. R: Right. K: Rather than the empty skin suit slash object. R: Right. Now, Big Lebowski. K [laughing]: Oh God, that’s a good one, okay! Um, God I haven’t watched that movie in forever, I love that movie. R: So he starts out, he gets up, he goes to the grocery store, he gets the ingredients for his White Russian, he drinks half of it there, he goes home. K: “Where is the money Lebowski?” [laughing] R: This has happened to him so far. Somebody mistakes him because he shares a surname with a very rich person, and they walk into this very shabby home and somehow think that they’ve found the right place. Now he isn’t gonna do anything about it. K: Yeah. R: He goes on with his life. He just is kind of sad about it, but his friends convince him - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: - that he needs to do something about it. K: Except the guy pees on the carpet. And that carpet really tied the room together. R: It really tied the room together! But he is not going to act until he’s convinced by his friends to act. K: This is another thing with agency. It’s okay for characters to be sort of passive and have things happen to them. That’s what starts the story- R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: - going. You don’t, don’t get me wrong. There’s plenty of stories out there with someone going “I woke up this morning and decided to do this thing.” R: Mhm. K: Or they start out with a quest, or they come up with something on their own. [overlapping] R [overlapping]: You’re in media res, so you’ve already gotten to the point where they want something. K: Yeah. But typically even if we pick up within that point something had to happen to them a lot of times beforehand, for them to want to go get the magic ring that lets you turn back into a human. R: Yeah and often you find that the character starts off trying to do a thing that isn’t the thing they decide they need to do in the end. I mean that’s kind of part of the whole character arc, is deciding what it is they really want. The Dude really wants a nice comfy life with his White Russians - K: And his bathrobe. [laughing] R: And the rug that ties the room together. K: Yeah. R: So it bothers him enough to complain about it, but not enough to act on it. Then he is cajoled into acting upon it. And he goes and finds himself embroiled in a large plot, where things kind of continue to happen to him. K: With movies you can watch a series of strange events unfold, because there’s the visual component that - often these are comedies. It’s almost slapstick. We’re just watching this person who all he wants is to go bowling with his buddies, sit in his bathrobe, and drink White Russians. And he ends up getting pulled into this bizarre situation. R: Being sent to have a physical ‘cause turns out he’s gonna father a child, and also toes get cut off - K: You want a toe? I’ll get you a toe next week. [laughing] Lebowski is a rather passive character. He doesn’t have a ton of agency. That said, once he gets involved in this he does make decisions even if they’re just ‘I want to get out of this alive.’ R: Yes. And he observes clues and he starts to put things together that probably they expected him not to do. They really thought that he would just kinda take the fall for things, or just go along, get paid, go home, and return to his life. K: Yeah. By the time he gets to the end of the story, his motivation is something between ‘I need to figure this out’ and ‘I’m not letting this random guy who got me tied into all of this get away with it.’ Does the Dude have agency? Sometimes, a little bit, if he can get the energy and motivation together to feel like it, which is by the way very in line with his character. R: Yeah. K: It is very typical with books to start out with characters just living their life. People by nature are passive. But you ever notice that when someone says “I’ve decided to do this thing,” it’s usually an announcement. It’s usually like “I’ve decided to change jobs.” “I’ve decided to buy a house.” “I’ve decided to ask this person to marry me.” It’s a decision you make to take action. Whereas most of our lives are just kind of us living our life, yeah after I’m done here I’m gonna have some soup I made, I’m very excited about that. I’m deciding to have soup. Is that agency? I don’t think so. You know in your day-to-day lives, agency are things that you’re trying to act for your benefit. I’ve decided to buy this house, because I worked very hard and I think this is a good investment and I think I’ll be happy and comfortable here, and this will improve my life a measurable amount that I want it to. R: Mhm. K: When characters act with agency, you know a lot of times they’re in situations that are not normal day-to-day things. There aren’t a lot of books out there about someone’s decision to work really hard, save money, and buy a house. R: Well that’s the first 25% of a book, that 25%, that storyline is gonna go away, or be severely altered. K: That house is haunted as hell. [laughing] R [overlapping]: Mhm. K: For a character to have agency, they have to do three things. They have to be able to act in their environment, which means that if you said a character, let’s say a human being, and you put them on an alien planet where literally everything is made of gas, that character’s not gonna have any agency because they can’t do anything. R: Right. K: But not only is everything made of gas, but the lifeforms that live there physically cannot communicate with the human, or have no interest in doing so. R: Right. K: So that person can’t interact with their environment; they’re not gonna have any agency, they have to just sit there and wait for something to happen. R: Unless the plot of that story is ‘how do I get to the point where I can talk to these aliens?’ There have been many Star Trek episodes like this, where you can’t communicate with the other aliens and the plot is ‘how do we find common ground?’ So, the decision to do so is agency, but the human who says “Well, all these molecules are just too far apart, I guess I’ll just sit here.” K: [laughing] R: That character has no agency. K: So the second thing is a character has to be able to make meaningful decisions. So, in the case of our character sitting on the gas planet, they’ve gotta make the decision of ‘I’m gonna find a way to gather all of this gas and condense it into something solid that I can use to my benefit.’ R: Right. K: They have to have a way to work towards their own benefit. Even if it’s not working towards their own benefit they have to be presented with situations in which they can make a decision. Even if it’s ‘the army’s invading, there’s two sides of this city, we’re only gonna be able to fend them off from one, we have to evacuate the other.’ The character making the decision of ‘okay, we’re gonna evacuate the east end, move everybody into the west end, and here are the reasons that we’re doing this and that’s why it’ll give us a better advantage.’ That’s displaying agency. The third thing is the character’s ability to affect the story. And this is different from making decisions. This is where Indiana Jones fails. R: Right, right. K: Because he doesn’t actually affect the story really. Sure, he’s got some wacky hijinks, he shoots a guy who just wanted to have a nice sword fight - R: Cracks a whip. K: Cracks a whip, somehow hitches a ride on a submarine, you know, things happen. R: If it wasn’t for Sallah he wouldn’t have even made it halfway through the movie. K: Exactly. Is he entertaining? Absolutely. It’s a delight. But he doesn’t do anything that changes the outcome of what’s happening. So, this is different than making a decision. Because a character needs to have an impact on the story. If you erase them from the story and nothing changes, that’s not a good character. R: You have some characters who maybe aren’t the decision makers, but if they’re the person with the special skill, or you know they’re the person with the strength or the fortitude to go ahead with the story that the other character doesn’t have, and you end up with a nice balanced team-up of brains and brawn. Obviously if you take the brawn out of that story, it is going to affect the story. Now, take Indiana Jones out, and you definitely have a very different movie. K: Absolutely, yes. R: Sometimes the character is required for the tone. K: Like a swashbuckling adventurer. R: Think of Jack Burton in Big Trouble in Little China. K: Okay. R: He’s not actually the hero of the movie. At one point a big fight scene starts, and he shoots his gun in the air and ends up knocking himself out when the ceiling falls on him. And for the greater portion of this fight scene he is prone on the ground. He’s almost like the story’s style, but he’s not the story’s main active character. K: Yeah. R: You know there’s parts where yes, they need him because he’s tough and he can fight, but so can the other characters. There’s a lot of characters doing a lot of stuff in that movie, and Jack Burton - you would notice, if you saw it and they removed him and then you watched it again, you would definitely notice his absence. But does his absence change the story? Would his friend have not gone to rescue his girlfriend? He definitely would have. And he definitely would’ve done it without Jack, but he talked Jack into helping. It’s interesting how many stories we enjoy end up with characters who draw a lot of attention to themselves, like Indiana Jones, like Jack Burton, without actually making a huge difference in the plot of the film. Or, I’m saying film ‘cause we like to use movies as shortcuts. But um - K: [laughing] R: How does this work in a book? Let’s go back to our favorite, Gideon the Ninth. Gideon kinda doesn’t have a clue what’s going on! K: Gideon is a little bit of a passive character. R: Yeah! But it’s delightful [laughing], just like Indiana Jones and Jack Burton. K: She gets dragged along on this adventure, which we find out is basically one giant series of death traps. She doesn’t know why she’s there. She’s there to serve as a lens of the story for the reader, because the other main character that we’re introduced to here is of course Harrowhark. R: Harrowhark has a lot of agency, and it’s all off the page. K: Because Harrowhark can’t be bothered to tell anybody about it. And, if she did, if she was the point-of-view character in that first book, we would have no idea what was happening. We need all of this to be told to us through the lens of Gideon, who is more like us than, like, Harrowhark. R: Yeah. Right. K: Of course by the end of the book you know this changes; we’ve learned some things, we’ve solved some mysteries. But Gideon is sort of a passive observer. Yes, she’s poking around, she’s talking to people, she’s gathering information, but really she can’t do anything with it until Harrow tells her what’s going on. R: And she’s only there because Harrow has made her promise to go along on this venture and then she’ll get the thing she wanted in the beginning, which she was pretty close to succeeding except Harrow was the obstacle. So Harrow said, “Do this thing with me, and then I’ll give you what you want.” And so Gideon goes along specifically for that purpose, and how much more passive can you be than just being like ‘if I just tap my foot throughout this book, I’ll get to the thing I want.’ K: Yeah. She literally just wants me to sit in a room and do nothing. R: Harrowhark has even said “do not speak to anyone.” K: Yeah. Don’t talk to anyone, don’t do anything, stay in this room, be here when I get back. R: So of course, the plot happens because Gideon’s like uhh you don’t tell me what to do. K [laughing]: Yeah it’s not agency so much as annoyance. R: Two people who can’t stand each other so why would one do what the other one wants. K: Yeah. Exactly. R: That is kind of the plot of Gideon the Ninth, but in the most delightful way that I just made sound as flat as possible. K: You’re right, because Gideon serves the purpose of one: as I said providing the reader with context and perspective, but two: also, she’s awesome! R: Yeah. K: And we like watching her swing this giant sword around, and be muscle-y - R [overlapping]: Yeah, flex for the other people in the book. K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: And also like look at people and go “There’s something wrong with you” [laughing], you know? K: Yes. Yes. Um, be the perspective of ‘This is all really weird, how am I the only person who sees that this is all really weird?’ R: Mhm. K: So. Um, yeah, so that’s a good example of characters who are passive but are compelling. So if you’re thinking to yourself ‘well, if that’s a thing that’s allowed, why do I need to strengthen my character’s agency?’ Because it depends on the story you’re telling. And it depends on what you’re trying to do here. If you have a character who is supposed to be your main character, your protagonist, they’re supposed to be leading the charge, and what they’re doing is they’re tripping from event to happening back to other event, just sort of letting stuff happen to them rather than doing things themselves, that can get really boring to read.  K: The second and third book in the Ember in the Ashes series, there’s a character in there named Helene. And - I won’t ruin too much for anybody who hasn’t read these, and full disclosure I’m still finishing the fourth one - in the second and third books especially, Helene is running around putting out fires. She is desperately trying to manage an unmanageable situation. At the same time though, she’s trying to figure out ‘how do I solve this bigger problem that I’m trying to face? How do I mitigate these circumstances?’ I was so excited whenever it was one of her chapters, because that was the thing that I thought was most interesting, was watching her just get things heaped on her. Every time she turns around something else bad is happening, that is just one more thing she’s gotta deal with. So was she displaying agency? In the second book I would say not as much, by the third book we’re certainly getting there. But, it’s still compelling because the way she is acting on her own behalf is not necessarily for herself maybe, but for other people. R: Okay. K: Watching someone deal with and try to mitigate overwhelming circumstances, I would say, is a form of agency. Even if they are just running around putting out fires. R: Trying to survive - K [overlapping]: Yes. R: - this moment, as opposed to having a plan for the next two weeks to six months - K [overlapping]: Yeah. R: - toppling the empire, etc. It’s okay if they’re just trying to get back to normal. K: Yes. Or, just trying in the case of Helene, just trying to make sure her family’s safe. Let’s start there. That’s small step number one, I’ve gotta work on that. Okay small step number two, now I’ve got a deal with the residents of this city. Now I’ve gotta figure out how I’m gonna deal with this other maniac, and there’s all of these forces and factors that she can’t really do much about. But she can make decisions. R: Right, so in an earthquake, a character obviously isn’t going to defeat the earthquake. K: I defeated an earthquake last week, Rekka, I don’t know what you’re talking about. [laughing] R: Okay. In a typhoon, Kaelyn’s not gonna go punch a typhoon. K: No no, earthquakes are far more punchable than typhoons. R: Right. So you can trust that Kaelyn’s gonna go check on friends and family, uh, Kaelyn’s going to act in ways that clearly are important and have great meaning to her personally, even if they’re not going to fix the fact that there’s a typhoon, or the fact that you know FEMA’s gonna have to come in and that sort of thing. So what about characters with examples of great agency? Like the Quest plot. Is that agency or is that ‘this wizard told me I need to go do this thing’? K: Well okay so I will, we can talk about the Quest plot and then I’ll give you what I think is a good example of someone who has agency and, I’m going to put them into the same story, which I know we’ve been talking about this series a lot, Shadow and Bone and the Six of Crows. For those who haven’t read or watched it, hopefully you know that one is a trilogy, the other is a duology, they’re separate storylines but the Netflix series collapsed them both into one. R: So go read the books anyway, because Netflix made some choices. K: So the first trilogy Shadow and Bone, Alina Starkov is a very, a little bit of, especially for the first book, a passive character. You know she discovers she has this power, and she is tasked with solving this big problem because she has this power. She does start to display agency in the story but if things had just progressed along that sort of Quest storyline - you could argue that it even does a little bit because ultimately there is a problem that she is the only one that can solve. R: Mhm. K: So, is that agency? Well, the way she goes about handling it in the story, breaking away from the wizard character and trying to decide to do this her own way is certainly displaying agency. R: Right. K: Conversely, in the Six of Crows, we have the character Kaz, who is sort of your underworld rogue-type but not in a charming way. I would actually say he’s quite the opposite of charming. He’s very stoic, very serious, very no-nonsense. But Kaz makes a lot of decisions to try to accomplish goals and to better the lives of him and his friends. There’s some revenge scenarios here, but in the revenge scenarios it’s reclaiming things that were taken from him. R: Right. K: There’s friends to liberate, there’s people to try to help and better their lives, there’s people they encounter along the way that get into bad situations. He is a character with a lot of strong agency. Even before we meet him, we can see everything he’s done, everything he’s worked towards to build himself up to a point where one day he can maybe do this one thing he’s trying to get to. I would say he’s a great example of somebody with a lot of agency. R: Right from the start. K: Yeah. R: So he’s got a plan, and this plan is the focus of the story. K: Yes. Of course, wrenches get thrown into it, because - R: Just in terms of Luke Skywalker just wants to escape the farm life, that’s his desire at the start. But what he ends -- I mean he does get that, but it turns into a much bigger story. K: Katniss Everdeen from Hunger Games. Does she have agency? She is mostly reactive. She only volunteers because her sister got picked as tribute. R: But she’s volunteering to protect her family, which you might say is proactive decision. K: At the same time though, if Katniss had not volunteered, would any of the subsequent events in the story have happened? No. Her decisions are impacting the story. That said, she is very manipulated a lot through this entire story. R [overlapping]: Oh yeah. And I think that’s just the way that as a character, we express that just ‘cause you’re a hero doesn’t mean you can’t be fooled, you can’t be misguided, you can’t be manipulated as you said. I thought that was incredibly different from anything I’d read of an adventurer-hero story, because you realize a hero doesn’t always make the right decisions. K: Yeah. I have a lot of mixed feelings about that book series as we’ve discussed in this - R: I’m not saying I’m happy with the way it ended, but that definitely opened my eyes, and I think influenced me. As a result, my characters definitely made decisions that they thought were sound, or they thought were motivated correctly, or were the right thing to do or whatever, that end up making more of a mess. K: Yeah. Now that said, with Katniss one of the things I will say bothered me a lot in this, and this is I think a product of trying to shoehorn motivations into areas where it doesn’t already exist, Katniss is -- there’s a scene, it’s much more pronounced in the movie but it is in the book -- where they’re at District 13. And they’re all sitting in this bunker and it’s ‘let’s talk about a time Katniss has inspired you, she’s this symbol. She is the Mockingjay.’ I don’t know if this was on purpose, I don’t know if this was the intent, but I couldn’t come up with a better way to just be like this character is almost inconsequential to what they’re doing. They just need her to stand heroically in front of people. I really think that a 16-17 year old girl was probably not the sole motivation for overthrowing an entire super-oppressive government, but. [laughing] R: Again, I am not going to jump in front of a train for this book series - K [overlapping]: [laughing] R: But I could see the development of a character who stands up to the government on TV that the government requires everybody to watch. K: Yes. R: Like this is a program that the government is putting in front of people’s faces because they want people to know that people will pay for their past transgressions, until they deem that they’re done. And Katniss says, “No. It’s not gonna be one survivor, I’m not going to kill the person that I grew up with because I need to survive; we’re both going to survive” and that turns into a big moment- K [overlapping]: Yes, it did. R: Also she honors the person from the other district with whom she’s supposed to be competing, but they all see her treat Rue like a human being, which is not something that you get from this government. K: There’s these tiny acts of rebellion. But I would say that it’s all undone by the fact that she doesn’t actually want any part of this. She wants to go back to her life and be done. Now that’s, I would argue, not agency, because what she’s having to deal with is the fallout of decisions that she made for survival, rather than because she wanted to make a statement. R: No I understand that, but I’m saying again with the hero doesn’t always make the right decisions, also, person who makes a couple decisions where other people can see them suddenly find themself turned into this bigger than life character - K [overlapping]: Yup. R: I felt like that was part of the character arc, coming to terms with being this person everybody now expected her to be, and sometimes needed her to be, in order for them to go on. K: I found book Katniss a very grating character, I didn’t - R: You are not the only one, I have heard this plenty of times. K: I didn’t like her much but one thing I appreciated about her was how much she just wanted to be left alone. [laughing] R: Yeah! I mean, we can all relate to that. K [laughing]: We can all relate to that. It’s just like, I get it. I don’t really like you that much but I totally get it. She’s capable, as you said, she’s a fast thinker, but she’s not a leader. In fact in the second book they have a whole plot going on behind the scenes that she doesn’t know about until the very end, because everybody looked at her and went ‘I don’t think she’s gonna be helpful here.’ [laughing] R: Yeah. K: We would be better off just doing this on our own. R: Yeah. K: And I really appreciate the writer’s acknowledgment of that. [laughing] But again, in the second book she is reverted back to a very passive role, this stuff is just happening to her. Even more so than in the first one. R: And then it continues in the third book, where they take her on this SWAT team adventure, and she’s just like ‘what the fuck’s going on?’ K: Yeah ‘cause they’re gonna go shoot all of this war footage of her. But then, she does make the decision ‘I’m going with this because I wanna get us into the Capitol, so that I can go kill the president.’ R: Right, right. K: So there we do have Katniss with agency, with a plan. R: Mhm. K: How important do you think plans are to characters having agency? R: This is a really good question. We’ve just described a lot of main characters who don’t really have a plan. K: No, no. R: And who are all highly successful IPs. Sometimes I think figuring out the plan can be the character’s arc. They know they want something. They try and fail and try and fail, and it’s because they don’t know how to go about it, or there’s something that they need to let go of or gain in order to figure out the best way. You know like a heist movie. K: I swear I was just thinking of a heist movie. [laughing] R: The plan is happening all along. K: Yeah. R: And it’s the reader watching it, and being misled about things going wrong that it turns out were part of the plan anyway because there’s always that aspect of the heist that you don’t hear about ‘til the end, and you get to watch it again and go ‘Oh now I see!’ K: ‘Yeah that guy was in the background the whole time.’ R: Yeah so obviously in that case the plan is not the plot. The reveal is the plot. The red herrings are the adventure, I don’t know. Sometimes a character figuring out what they want is the plot. K: Mhm. R: The idea I think is that the character starts with a sense of the way things are right now are not good. K: I think there’s a lot of this in anime. I’m thinking of Inuyasha right now, did you watch that? R: No. You’re gonna have to talk Sailor Moon if you’re gonna keep me on your level. K: Okay, let’s talk Sailor Moon. Let’s talk the original anime run, where they really fleshed out a lot of the episodes, and remember at one point they’re trying to track down the seven rainbow crystals. You know Sailor Moon becomes Sailor Moon not by choice, she just is. R [overlapping]: Yup. K: And she’s got a talking cat that tells her to fight demons. R: And yells at her for not doing her homework. K: And at the same time, she’s not only gotta find these other sailor scouts, and identify them and get them to accept their fates and roles but because this is anime everyone’s like ‘Ah yes! This is what I was meant for the whole time!’ In the first season of the anime they’re tracking down these seven rainbow crystals. So they don’t necessarily know why they’re tracking them, and at one point Tuxedo Mask has one and they’re like that’s fine, he can just hang on to it. R: [laughing] K: They’re just like well we don’t want the bad guys to get these. We don’t know why. But then we find out, oh no wait, it turns out we actually need all of them. R [overlapping]: Yeah. K: Why? Well we’re not sure yet. Okay now we know why we need all of them. And, oh crap, there’s the princess! And why do we need the princess? Because the princess can wield this power that’s going to defeat Queen Beryl. The agency there I think is - well first of all accepting and embracing ‘hey this is something I have to do.’ But also then incremental goals. And sometimes your plan changes. Sometimes it turns out that Sailor Venus is not the princess. R [overlapping]: [laughing] Yeah. Yeah. K: It’s actually Sailor Moon. [laughing] R: Yeah, well, certainly couldn’t be her. Look at her. K: No, no, I mean she looks nothing like that other princess that she looked exactly like. [laughing] R: With the same hairstyle and everything. K [laughing]: Yes. R: The importance of grace in a person’s identity is apparently paramount. But yeah, the idea of a plan changing with new information I think is overlooked, because we like our stories in small parcels. K: Yes. R: But something like, for example a manga that’s gonna go on in theory indefinitely - K: [coughing]Naruto.[/coughing] Sorry. R: You’re going to have to introduce new information that’s going to change the course of the plot, and make the characters do something that maybe they wouldn’t have done before, or something they hadn’t considered, or just go off in a different direction because they need a new costume. K: And by the way this is why a lot of not just manga, but comic book series and even ongoing long-running television shows, have story arcs. R: Yeah. K: Manga especially you will see broken out into the such-and-such arc. R: Mhm. K: The this arc, they actually title them and they’re considered collections. R: Yeah. The introduction of new information can help pivot the story in a way that, like the characters might not have made that decision based on the way that they were starting out or proceeding at any given point in it. Having a plan is good, but maybe it doesn’t matter what it is. [laughing] K: But I think having a plan is a baseline that gives characters agency because they can make decisions to try to achieve the end results of that plan. R: Trying to stay on the track. K: Yeah. Again I’ll refer to the character of Kaz in Six of Crows. What’s so compelling about his character is he is a planner. He’s one of those guys who’s thinking of every possible contingency. He’s trying to stay two steps ahead of rivals and archnemesises - nemesii - R: Nemeses. K [overlapping]: Nemeses. I like nemesii. And that’s why we see him act so clearly with so much agency because then on top of that, we also learn that he is a person who’s very knowledgeable and very in control of things. You need a guy who can do this? He knows the guy who can do that who owes him a favor. He runs a casino, so all he’s doing is collecting information and favors and stuff to be traded in later. R: Okay. What about competence porn? K: Competency porn in general - if you’re not getting it from just saying, this is: somebody who’s always on top of things and always two steps ahead, and then it’s like all is lost, haha, no it’s not! See, I took the magic human ring from their pocket a long time ago, and now we can all - R [overlapping]: Going back to the heist kind of plot we described, like Danny Ocean - K: Yeah. R: - was an extremely competent person who was never out of control at any point. K: And even when we were left to think that he was out of control, that he was gonna derail this whole thing because of Tess, it turns out no, she was part of the plan the whole time. R: Yeah. K: So how do you have a character that has a lot of agency, can show forward thinking, without making them insufferable? R: We’ll start with casting George Clooney. K: Yes, yeah. All things are forgiven if it’s George Clooney. R: [laughing] K: Once you realize you can’t get George Clooney, what do you do? You have to make the character a person. Everyone works with somebody who, a situation will pop up and you know that no matter what you do, they are going to act irrationally because of something that happened prior. Everyone has a family member that won’t eat a certain thing, no matter how you prepare it, and the reasons that they won’t eat it are completely irrational. Everyone has the friend that just is constantly late, or changing plans last minute. These are X factors, these are things that make us human. And building a well-developed character who’s, even if they are hyper competent and they have planned everything out, still has to deal with base urges and moments of irrationality that are going to make them act in a way that maybe isn’t furthering the plan. But, they’re still showing agency when they do it. So for instance, you know the character standing at the thing and it’s like ‘okay I’m supposed to be following this guy who’s got the thing, but holy crap, there’s the guy who killed my brother! He’s walking that way, but I need to follow the guy who has the MacGuffin, because we need the MacGuffin, but this might be my only chance. He’s getting on a plane, I might never find this guy again.’ And decides to leave and go - it’s still agency, he’s still making a decision to his benefit, but at the cost of something else. R: Unless he figures out how to do both. So, as an editor, obviously you can’t name names - K: [laughing] R: - but what has been your experience with writers being told that they need to add agency to a story? K: Frequently confusion. R: Confusion because they don’t know what the heck that advice means, so they needed this episode. K: The thing is that if you have a completed book, a lot of times I think that you think your character is doing the best that your character can. I haven’t had to have that conversation a lot, but the times that I have weren’t the story as a whole, it was isolated to individual areas of the story. And a lot of times I framed it as ‘character So-and-so needs to make a decision. They need to do something. They need to stand up for themself. Or they have this thing that they know, they need to act on that, or they need to tell someone about it so that person can act on it. When I find areas where I’m like, I need this character to display a little more agency, is typically when - I’ll be honest with you, a lot of times it’s when the story stalled out a little bit. R: But is that a result of the character not behaving with agency? K: Well frequently when we get the character to act a little bit more on their behalf or make some decisions, it takes the storyline back up. R: Yeah. K: Weird, huh? [laughing] R: Funny how that happens. K: This all goes back to what we’re talking about here of going ‘why is it a big deal if my character’s passive?’ Because that can get boring. R: Yeah. And part of this is that we need the energy as a reader from that character’s desire to get from point A to point B, whether that’s an action or a target or an emotional state or whatever. That carries us along through the book and that makes the pages turn, versus the character just milling about with their hands in their pockets. K: I’ll leave us with this thought. I find a lot of times that characters who lack agency are typically not well-developed characters. And I’m not talking about in a certain scene, I’m not talking about the weird spot where the story’s stalling out a little bit, I’m talking about pervasive through the entirety of the story. A lack of agency is frequently coupled with a character that maybe isn’t that well-developed and whose arc, yes I’m tying in other vague advice to this, but whose character arc maybe isn’t that well fleshed out. Because if you have a well-developed character, you should know in your head what they would do in certain situations. You should know how they would act. If the character’s personality or development is ‘I will sit in this place, watch everything happen, and wait for it to be over,’ well, maybe that’s not a character you should be writing an entire book about. [laughing] All of this ties to everything else. All of this has to do with the other major things about books: themes, character arcs, plot, and place. Because characters who are well-developed shouldn’t need a lot of nudging to help themselves. R: Right, so if you have a character that knows what they want, sometimes this meandering comes out of the writer not quite sure how to get to the next thing, and might I suggest you just cut the scene and go to the next thing that is actually sometimes exactly what it needs. K: You brought up a very good point. I think a lot of times when, especially if it’s not pervasive if we’re dealing with an individual scene, it’s more a product of the writer struggling in that area. Either not knowing how to get us to the next place we need to be, be it physical or otherwise, or not having a good understanding of what’s gonna continue to happen in the story and either not wanting to write themselves into a corner, or not having a good way to continue. R: Yeah. And so then they get stuck in that character-introspective moment where they’re staring out the kitchen window, thinking about lots of stuff without acting in any way. K: It’s okay to have quote-unquote “downtime” for characters. It’s okay to give them some time where they need to think and regroup. I would say that is even displaying agency, that’s a planning portion. I’m not saying that every character at all times in your book must be active and must be doing things to further themselves to a goal. What I am saying, however, is that if they’re not doing anything through the course of the book, or if there are big chunks of it where we’re kinda going ‘whaaat’s going on here?’, that’s a larger problem. And one is easier to fix than the other. [laughing] Anyway, so, that’s agency, and that’s kinda what I have to say about it. That’s all I have to say about that. R: I doubt that very much. K: Well, that’s all I’ll say for now then. R: Yes, ‘cause we are over time. For me, if I get the feedback that my character’s lacking agency, I take a good look at what’s happening. And as Kaelyn said, if my character’s not a force that is causing things to happen in this story, or if there’s unnecessary downtime, or if there just isn’t a character arc, ‘cause sometimes I get this feedback for short stories. K: Mhm. R: And so that’s a good easy way to figure out like ‘oh, right, I don’t have a character arc. This character goes and observes a thing, and I’m trying to make commentary on the thing but I’m not actually having the character affect any change on the thing.’ Then it’s not really agency, it is the character observing the world around them and having an opinion about it, which isn’t the same as having a character arc. K: Yeah. R: If that happens in a novel, it’s more excruciating because it’s a lot more words that you’ve put time into. I rewrote SALVAGE, the first 60% that I rewrote, the first time I rewrote the first 60%, was because of an agency issue. K: Mhm. R: My characters start out the book; they’re stuck on the island, and all I did to change it was change the way they were planning their stuck-ness. K: [laughing] R: They’d been there the same amount of time, they were the same amount of frustrated, they were in the same amount of danger and having to make sure that nobody noticed them that shouldn’t notice them. But, in the second version, there’s a heist. Versus the first version where there’s a lot of watching the clock. And which one would you rather read? K: Exactly, yeah. There’s certainly an argument to make -- I think, a strong argument that I would say is borderline law -- that watching characters act with agency is far more engaging than watching them as passive observers. R: Yep. K: Unless it’s Twilight, and then you’re just gonna sell a billion copies of basically a weird choose-your-own-adventure, but not really. R: Yes. Well, not all our characters are as beautiful and attractive and wonderful and captivating as Bella, so we’re just gonna have to give them agency. K: She doesn’t know how beautiful - R [overlapping]: Right no of course not - K [overlapping]: No of course not, no - R: The plot is her finding out that people find her attractive. K: And she smells really good. [Both laughing] R: A fine vintage. Okay. K: Twilight is one of those things that like, I wonder if 150 years from now when we’re all dead, and they look back at this and go like ‘God, people in the earlier 2000s were weird.’ R: I mean, you could say that about most ages I think. K: That’s true. Yeah. R: There’s plenty of evidence throughout history of humans being just freakin’ weird. K: Context is everything, but. R: Yep. K: Yeah, so anyway, that’s agency. R: It is. Go get some, and give it to your characters. K: And always agency on your own behalf, you as a real life person always get to have. R: Yeah! I mean, especially when you’ve been locked inside for a year and a half. It’s about time to get some agency. K: Yup. R: So if you have questions or comments, or you still don’t know what agency is or what to do with it when someone tells you you need more, then you can @ us on Twitter and Instagram @wmbcast, or you can go back to some of the other episodes we talked about; they are all at wmbcast.com. We would love if you would leave a rating and review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts. And also we are super grateful to all our patrons at Patreon.com/wmbcast who support the costs involved in making these episodes for you. So if they are helpful, and you have the cash and the agency - K: [laughing] R: Please head on over there. K: I see what you did there. R: Oh yeah, you like that? Thanks. K: I did, I did. So thanks everyone, we’ll see you in two weeks!

This week Sean and Giannis watched this Clint Eastwood classic, Kelly's Heroes! Join us for some unusually positive waves brought to you by Donald Sutherland's various dog impressions, Clint Eastwood's singing, and Telly Salvalas' immaculately sculpted body.Facebook Page , Twitter Page , Instagram Page ,Youtube Page, Patreon Page

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Links for this episode: Worldbuilding for Masochists Podcast Dungeons & Dragons Dungeon Master's Guide Wonderbook by Jeff Vandermeer Episode Transcript (by TK @_torkz) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. We Make Books Ep. 60 Transcription   After intro: [00:26]   Rekka: She was tuuckered out yesterday. I was tuckered out yesterday. [laughing] The trainer had us running around a field and it was the first time I had done any real, like, quick movements, certainly out in the sun on an 80 degree day, when I had forgotten water for both me and Evie, and the trainer only said “oh I have some in the car,” she only gave it to Evie, she didn’t give me any. But she’s like “jump around! Be active! Be real animated!” And I’m like ohh my goodness, do you not realize, that this is me animated.   [both laughing]   Rekka: So I was like, how about I lay down and pretend to be a dead squirrel, dogs love dead squirrels. [laughing]   Kaelyn: [laughing] Aww.   R: So we were all tired yesterday. So today, we are talking about worldbuilding.   K: We are.   R: We are. We are talking about mostly not overdoing your worldbuilding.   K: And because it’s me, we’re certainly going to be talking about some of the elements of worldbuilding as well. Worldbuilding is the process of creating, constructing, and coming up with the rules for an imaginary world, or sometimes an entire fictional universe. There’s a lot of elements that go into this - interesting fact that I found while doing some research for this: the first time “worldbuilding” was used was actually in 1820.   R: The term, or..?   K: The term “worldbuilding” was first used in 1820 in the Edinburgh Review.   R: Okay.    K: Fiction has existed in one form or another all through the course of humanity, obviously, you know, as we got into more recent centuries, literature became a little more organized? I guess? For lack of a better term.   R: So that’s the first time it appeared in print as far as we know, in English, and presumably someone would have said it aloud and said “hey that sounds pretty good.” K: Yeah, you know what, I have to - I’ll try to dig up the article because I am curious but, the Edinburgh Review was, of course, just reviewing published stories and literature and reviews of different things. So the term really gained a lot of traction in the early 1900s when we saw a lot of science fiction and fantasy writing. A really good example, actually of thorough worldbuilding based off of existing history, would probably be Huxley’s Brave New World, and I think that was 1932, I believe.    K: Regardless of where your story is set, what time it’s set, how much you’re using and building off existing human history, or if this takes place in a galaxy far, far away, there’s certain elements you have to have in worldbuilding. One of the good places to start is geography. If it’s Earth: you’re done. No problem. [laughing] You have established that the world is Earth.   R: But do you? Do you even say [laughing] that you are writing a story on Earth, if you are on Earth?    K: You name a place that the reader would presumably have context for. If, you know, the story is set in Delhi, India then yes we’re on Earth. Tokyo, places we’ve heard of.   R: So in fair Verona, on planet Earth where we lay our scene.   K [laughing]: On planet Earth, yes, Shakespeare did always make sure to specify that.   R: That’s what I was kinda saying is that -   K: Yeah.   R: - because of context, because of cultural understanding, some books, current for the audience they were intended for, are going to need less explanation of the setting than others.   K: Yeah, now the other component of geography then, especially if you’re writing a fantasy or a science fiction story, there’s probably some hidden world elements in there. It may not be a hidden world story, but there’s probably some things that regular people don’t see, or some locations that you have to create. So that’s part of establishing your geography.   R: Hidden or invented?   K: Well, invented and hidden.   R: I’m just making you define your definitions.   K [laughing]: Okay.   R: When you say hidden, do you mean literally, like underground caverns? Or do you just -   K: Could be! R: - mean secret societies -   K: It could be any of those. For secret society, we’d be talking about the place that the secret society meets. In some cases, this could be established places that you’re repurposing for your story, but you still need to establish the geography of what these are and where these are.   R: The Mall of America.   K: Exactly.   R: Where my cabal meets every Sunday.   K: Wait, that’s where I’m hiding my Deathstar.   R: It’s a big mall.   K: It is a big mall. Yeah.   R [overlapping]: You could do both things.   K: So [laughing] geography is just a good way to get yourself grounded of where things are especially in relation to each other and that’s very important if your story is set on the road. Because otherwise we start ending up with some Game of Thrones style jetpack -   R: You mean like fast travel? [laughing]   K: Yeah, there were some characters that the running joke was like, for them to have gotten from place A to place B in that amount of time they must have some secret Game of Thrones jetpack that they’re [laughing] doing this with.   R: Well, then you need fossil fuels.   K: Yeah, or dragons.   R: This really - well, yeah, how about you just hop on a dragon! Turns out, everybody was riding dragons in these books -   K [laughing]: Yeah.   R: - it’s just that some people made a bigger fuss about it than others.   K: [laughing]   R: We all ride dragons! All the time! You’re not that cool.   K: So geography is a good way to get your story grounded, so to speak. Now if you’re building one from the ground up—a world, that is—you may not know exactly where everything is when you start writing, and that’s okay. But having a rough idea is very helpful, especially - as I said - if your characters are going to be traveling from place to place because knowing how long it should take them to get from place to place is critical to the story.   R: Yeah, I was just gonna say this is a very story critical element, not just -   K: Yeah.   R: - the setting, some stories could happen almost anywhere, and the setting is not 100% ingrained in the story.    K: Yes, and geography then also plays into one of the other major elements of worldbuilding, which is culture. So where your characters live and what their setting and environment looks like, is really going to affect what type of people they are. But if you have an entire village set on a rocky island in a stormy area in the middle of nowhere isolated from the rest of the people of this kingdom, and those people aren’t good with boats, that’s probably a problem.   [Both laughing]   R: Well, it depends how rough the water is, maybe the water is an actual obstacle.   K: Well, see? And there you go.   R: [laughing]   K: Because the geography there comes into play, because maybe this is an isolated group that never gets off this island because the water is too rough.   R: Maybe the water’s frozen!   K: Maybe the water’s frozen!   R: [giggles]   K: This is going to feed into their culture and what these people are like. This isn’t just culture based on their surroundings though, you have to establish everything about culture which is: their past, their current social structure, religious elements, what do they eat, what do people do there for a living, are they part of a greater entity and if so, what is their contribution to this greater entity.   R: I feel like now would be a good time to make a nod to the podcast Worldbuilding for Masochists.   K: Yes! Yes. [laughing]   R: Which, if you haven’t heard it, goes episode by episode just taking one aspect, and for a while there the hosts were actually building a world with no intention of writing for it, just literally like “okay what’s another thing to consider about this world?” and each host was handling a certain element or a certain region and it’s good evidence of how you can worldbuild and never ever ever get to your story. Because as Kaelyn’s outlining, there’s a lot to go into a finely detailed world for your narrative story, so this way trouble lies -   K: [laughing]   R: - if you are on deadline, for example. [laughing]   K: And there’s a good example of this: Tolkien.   R: Mhm.   K: Tolkien wrote a lot of his books because he was a linguist and he came up with all of these languages and then created history around the languages - because languages are intrinsically linked to history - and then developed this very rich, millenia-long history of Middle Earth, and then he wrote a story set well after he’d actually established all of these things. So he spent a lot of time creating a world and this history to not tell stories that were necessarily set in that, but to tell stories that were a product of everything that he had created.    R: But for this later world that he writes his setting into, the history he created is their history and you can tell.   K [overlapping]: It’s very important to the story as well, yes. If you’ve ever read the Lord of the Rings trilogy, you will know that there is an exhaustive amount of time spent with characters having conversations in different languages, and that’s because this is what Tolkien was all about.   R: That's what he really wanted to write. [chuckles]   K: Yeah, he was very into creating languages. And that, by the way, is why people can learn Elvish, because it’s an actual language with an alphabet - so to speak, if you want to call it that - grammatical rules, syntax, all of the things that need to be there to create a language.   K: But anyway, so culture elements are important because, especially if you are creating a brand new world, if you’re fabricating or you’re building from nothing, you have to have a world that these people live in. You can’t just take a group of people, plop them down, and say: “and then one day a dragon came!” Because we have no context then for: is this a good thing? are they happy the dragon’s there, or did the dragon come to eat them? Is this a frequent problem, are dragons kind of like rats, do they just pop up every now and then and you’ve gotta deal with it? Do they have methods for this? If the dragon eats all of them, is that the end of the story, or what happens to the dragons? [laughing]   R: Was the dragon prophesied? Have they been anticipating their arrival or -   K: Exactly.   R: - was it a surprise? [laughing] like surprise dragons.   K [laughing]: A surprise dragon! The best kind of dragon.   [both laughing]   K: So, establishing the culture, apart from being good for worldbuilding, helps a writer figure out how characters would react or act based on certain events. Leading in from culture, next I would say is cosmology. And I’m gonna put this in two different perspectives here: the science fiction and the fantasy. For science fiction, you gotta establish what’s up there.   R: [giggles]   K: Stars and planets and who lives on what and how fast can you get to them, what's the gravity like, what’s the air situation like, are they all just the planet Venus which is incredibly toxic, or are they all just Saturn and we don’t really know what they’re made up of? [laughing] For worldbuilding and science fiction, that’s very important especially if your story is set in space. And you still, by the way, can absolutely have science fiction set on Earth, in which case the cosmology is ours. And that’s fine, just establish that. But anytime you’re involving space marines, aliens, wormhole travel, you gotta establish, not just Earth, but everything else that we’re interacting with.   K: So then on the fantasy side, it’s a little bit more metaphysical. This kind of leads into the culture aspect. We need to know you know, on this planet - or setting or town or wherever it is - how do these people think about their place in the universe?   R: Is it the center of the universe? Do they have awareness of other life sustaining planets? Do they understand that there are planets or is it just sparkly things in the sky?   K: Are they the dominant species? Is there another one that’s equivalent to them? But also how do they see themselves in the world? Are they a chosen people of a deity that put them there? Are they the rejected children of an angry god? Did they just accept that they evolved from whatever was swimming around in the primordial ooze and now that’s -    [both laughing]   K: - that’s where they are? A lot of times in fantasy, there’s beings of varying degrees of power and there’s frequently like a hierarchy of these and now, granted, some of them - they may be all the same species and some of them are just more powerful than others.   R: Mhm.   K: But typically when you involve magic there’s an otherworldliness to it; the magic is coming from somewhere, so that’s something that needs to be addressed in the cosmological metaphysical scale, if you will.   R: Okay.   K: So then that bleeds into the fourth one, which is physics.   R: You know what, just throw physics out the window, it’s very optional.   K: Well, ‘cause you gotta decide: are you sticking to real world physics? If so, what are you gonna do when you need to invent things, are you gonna try to apply the rules that we theoretically would apply to these things? Or are you just gonna kind of make up like, “yes and we’ve invented a way to take dark matter and make it into energy.” Don’t do that unless you can really back that up. [laughing]   R: Hey, lots of people try. The other thing is, if you can find out the largest argument against doing that, like if other people have tried it in their books and real world physicists have offered their criticism of the method, then you have a scene where one character says: “how did you solve the such and such quandary?”   K: Yes.   R: And you invent a method, give it a name but do not explain it, and just hand wave the heck out of it.   K: Yeah, so how much are you gonna stick to real world physics, and how much is gonna be magic? And obviously magic tends to dabble more into the fantasy side, but you can still apply physics to this. You still have Newton’s primary laws involved there, you know an object in motion tends to stay in motion, okay so a spell that’s already cast tends to continue to be cast -   [both laughing]   K: Maybe you get a little more into a Fullmetal Alchemist with the equal exchange principal, which by the way, is also rooted in physics: matter cannot be created or destroyed.   R: Right.   K: That, though, ties into cosmology frequently which is: where is the magic coming from?   R: Mhm.   K: All of these things that I’ve talked about here, these are how you are going to establish your “rules” of this world. Be they geography, travel, physics, magic, society and culture - this is how you have to set these up in order to place your characters in a setting that makes sense.   R: Okay. Would you say that concludes the definition?   K: Well I would say those are my four elements that I would highlight.   R: Okay.   K: There’s definitely more, and like, subelements within those but I think those are always a good place to start.   R: Okay. So this episode topic was proposed to us as: how do you create worldbuilding that doesn't trap you in both rules and details? So now that you’ve just told people to invent everything -   K [overlapping]: [laughing]   R: - from the Big Bang to the point of your story, how do you make sure you don't?   K: I’m assuming in this scenario we’re talking about multiple books or short stories set in the same world.   R: Why does it have to be multiple?   K: Because, if you are building a world and worried about trapping yourself, you would be able to write your way out of it if it was one book.   R: You think.   K: I think, yes.   R: My answer to this is don’t put all the details in the book.   K: Yeah, absolutely.   R: Understand your rules and understand your basic principles, but don’t reference them in the book because that does then therefore hold you accountable when you get readers who are so enthusiastic about the world you’ve created that they start to write these things down.   K: Writing yourself into a corner with world building - I’m not saying this to be critical of anyone’s writing style, but this is why planning is important. There are certain things that you kind of just need to know are gonna happen in the story in order to construct the world properly. If you get too far into it, you keep adding too much backstory, too much history of the characters, you’re gonna start to run into situations where - like Rekka was saying - there’s contradictions. When you really start to have problems with writing yourself into a corner is when your stories and characters get large enough that they have to keep expanding, that you’ve gone on and on and on in this world for a while.    K: George R.R. Martin has fans who are sort of archivists for him, that he will send them the books or novellas or even like preview chapters, to check against what he’s already written to make sure he’s not contradicting himself in any way. He let them write The World of Ice and Fire book, that was written by just fans of the series that were documenting all of this stuff, so they worked in conjunction with Martin on this, and even with that, he still - things still slip in those books. The scale and sprawl of the world in A Song of Ice and Fire is gigantic; I would argue it’s the biggest problem in getting these books released now -   R: Mhm.   K: - because you’ve flung all of these characters to such far corners and come up against these problems of how do we get this person to here to interact with this person but then get them back over to where I need them to be at the end of this story.   R: A dragon with a jetpack.   K: Yes. Yes. Oh, so the dragons have jetpacks now?   R: I mean it makes more sense; they’re the fireproof ones.   K: That’s a good point, yeah. So in terms of not writing yourself into a corner. This isn’t maybe the most encouraging answer, but I’m going to say that if your world keeps growing and you have to keep adding history and new characters, it’s going to happen.   R: It’s absolutely going to happen. This is a problem that, on the one hand is frustrating, but on the other hand can be good to have. You end up writing more about your worldbuilding and more about your details than writing out your story.   K: This, again, falls into a lot of early epic fantasy where it felt more like there were characters that we were just watching interact with a world so that we could learn more about the world. And the story itself [giggling] wasn’t as important. There’s definitely a balance, but the thing about worldbuilding - about good worldbuilding - is that once you establish it, your reader shouldn’t need a lot of context for it. They should kind of understand: this is the world that this story and these characters are set in, and be able to apply that to the rest of the book as they’re reading it.   K: I wanna distinguish here between setting and worldbuilding, because worldbuilding is not necessarily describing a specific place -   R [overlapping]: Mhm.   K: - it’s describing all of the places and giving the reader context for them. A setting is “places that the characters are.”   R: Right, but if you are showing off your worldbuilding -   K: Yes.   R: - by describing your setting -   K: They certainly can cross, yes, but they -   R [overlapping]: - how do you stop yourself from doing that? Just get a really good friend to smack your hand and tell you “no you’ve gone too far here?”   K: You mean when you’ve gone too far in the world building and we’re getting into like, an exposition dump?   R: Yeah!   K: Yeah, that’s editorial to be honest with you. That’s something that you revisit in drafts, that’s something that you get feedback on. If you have a really richly built and developed world with history and culture and all of these interesting things that you’ve spent time and effort thinking about, there’s gonna be this inclination to just dump all of it at once, to just do a lot of: “these such and such people lived here, and they had spent a lot of generations at war with this and that people who were allies of the third people.” There’s ways to do this and it’s a skill you have to develop, it takes a certain amount of finessing.   R: Usually, some allow more for it than others.   K: Yeah absolutely, and there’s a lot of clever ways to squeeze this in there, and by the way, this isn’t to say that there’s something wrong with a character giving the reader information - either through an internal monologue or explaining something to someone. There’s all sorts of great articles - and, I would imagine, Youtube videos, subreddits - about worldbuilding tips and tricks. So there are ways of incorporating that into your story without having to give a long, tiresome, and confusing explanation. Dropping a lot of information on the reader, they’re not going to retain that.   R: Mhm.   K: Whenever I’m reading a book where I have to keep track of certain places or groups of people or what different types of magical abilities do and mean, I need to re read that a couple times. When there’s a page that has information on I usually bookmark it so that when later -   R [overlapping]: [laughing]   K: - I see it referenced, I can go back and be like okay, yes, those are the people that control fire, you know? [laughing]   R: Kaelyn doesn’t read with bookmarks, she reads with post it notes. [giggles]   K: I - yes. I do still read physical books and sometimes it is bookmarks and post it notes. [laughing]    R: So that brings to mind the idea of how much a reader has to remember what you write in your exposition. If you’re just describing a setting, can you get away with more than laying out the way things work?   K: My experience tends to be that readers will remember descriptions well, because when they’re reading through something and you’re describing, you know, vast mountains capped with snow and trees stopping at a certain point because of the -   R: So that’s imagery.   K: Yes, because you’re giving them something to picture in their mind. What is kind to do for readers, especially if these are things you’ve made up - let’s pretend in Avatar, waterbenders were called something specific. [laughing] You remind them, Katara was a whatever the word is, she controlled water. There are ways to drop those reminders in there so that readers don’t get frustrated by like “I don’t even know who this person is or where they’re from at this point.”   R: But that is a good point. When you’re naming things -   K [overlapping]: Mhm.   R: - consider being a little bit more explicit in the name than to come up with secondary world terms.   K: Yes but, if you do decide to do that - this is where I’m gonna, not derail us a little bit, but talk about another element in the book that can be helpful here which is maps and glossaries.   R: Mhm.   K: We did a whole episode about maps and why they’re so useful and helpful, one of the great reasons is worldbuilding. It’s really nice to open a book and, assuming you can do it without spoilers, see a map there to give the readers some context of where the world is and what’s going on there. I always, whenever I get a map, I like to take a look at it and look at some of the names of places and get an idea of like “okay so I guess we’re going here eventually, we’re probably going there eventually.”   R: Mhm.   K: Glossaries are good for that too, especially when you have to create a lot of stuff, it’s good for the reader to be able to flip back to one of those terms to go like “oh yes, okay, that’s this kind of magic.”   R: Right, and this is a spot where unfortunately, digital and audio do not help us.   K [overlapping]: No.   R: Like if you’re reading a paperback of something you can flip to these things, you can keep your finger in it as you go through, as opposed to - you can put a post it in it! - whereas it is really difficult on, say, a digital reader. It’s still not as natural an experience -   K [overlapping]: Yeah.   R: - as flipping to either the start or the finish. All of my Peridot books have glossaries in them and I feel bad every time I think of anyone reading it in audio.   [both laughing]   R: Because it’s not there, and while yes you can download the files to pair with the audio, you’re generally doing something while you’re listening to an audiobook.   K: Yeah.   R: But I agree with you about the map. The worldbuilding that you get out of a map is pretty impactful in terms of the distance between things, as you started off saying, like how many jetpack refuels does your dragon need -   K: [laughing]   R: - to get from point a to point b in your story.   K: I’ve also seen a lot of books now, especially where there’s a large caste of characters and certain groups or family units, in the beginning of the book they’ll just have a list of them or maybe a family tree.   R: Speaking of Romeo and Juliet again like you have the dramatis personae -   K: Yes, exactly.   R: - a real quick rundown of how they relate to other characters and stuff, again not helpful in audio. Again, this is front matter back matter -  if you had the clout, you could print a separate book of your world bible.   K: And by the way, if you have a glossary, a map, a dramatis personae in this, that is not an excuse to not do the worldbuilding.   R [overlapping]: Right, that’s what I was gonna come back to was like, okay so you’re sticking it outside the actual story, but I would argue that it’s important to be able to read the story and understand everything without supplemental reading material.   K: Yeah, that should be there either for prestory context - reader, I’m gonna throw a lot of people at you, I know it’s gonna be a little tricky to keep track of it have this helpful guide to who these people are -   R: Mhm.   K: - or it’s just a “hey heads up here’s everyone in here,” but that still means you need to do the actual worldbuilding and do the work in the book.   R: Right. So using a prime example, a recent example is the Gideon the Ninth -   K [overlapping]: Ah, yes, one of our favorites [garbled through laughter]   R: [overlapping]: - The Locked Tomb Trilogy. I would much rather talk about Gideon all day than A Song of Ice and Fire, let’s be real.   K: [laughing]   R: So, it begins with names from each of the houses. Not only that but it sets a little bit of tone  -   K: Yeah.   R: - for each of the houses without saying “these houses are like this.” So it begins with, in order of House appearance: “The Ninth House, keepers of the Locked Tomb, house of the Sewn Tongue, the Black Vestals.” And that in itself is worth like six paragraphs of explanation that -   K: Absolutely.   R: - this is just what goes with that name. And then you have the multiple names of the characters that you’re going to encounter from this House, and no explanation as to what they’re like or anything like that. So you’ve gotten a tone for the setting, the Ninth House, you get that like, the names all sort of have a structure to them, and that’s what you get from that pre reading list. And then you get in and then you get the characterization, just like you would if you were not going to have forty characters dumped on you in the course of this book.   K: Yeah, and by the way, because this author is diabolical, by the time we get to the second book, the dramatis personae in the beginning is doing an extra level of work here because they had to do it without spoiling things. So it’s actually creating this air of mystery - which absolutely contributes to worldbuilding by the way. There’s something weird going on here because there’s some contradictions in this, or some people that you can tell are deliberately left out, and then you have to start wondering why.   R: And Kaelyn was very aware of this -   K [overlapping]: I -   R: - jumped right on those little details after reading it the first time, before the second book was out; the second book came out, Kaelyn read it and was texting me like “I have questions!”    K: [laughing]   R: But yeah in the first book you’re introduced to twenty-eight people in three pages, and their alliances that they’re gonna start the book out with, and then you get to meet them. So a dramatis personae is not all the details, it’s not the hair color, it’s not attitude, it’s not history, it’s just “here are the names so you can keep them straight, who was that again, okay that was this person” and maybe then you remember that they had a pinched little mouth.   K: There’s a [laughing] a lot of ways to do this, it just depends the amount of effort and detail you wanna put into it.   R: And some genre expectations too.   K [overlapping]: And some genre expectations, to be sure, absolutely.   R: Always.   K: This can get as straightforward as set in Denver in the present day, and it's primarily just regular human beings and -   R: At a grocery store.   K: At a grocery store, yeah. You still need to establish that so you’re still building your world there -   R: Mhm.   K: - or you can take this as far as something like -   R: New Denver Colony!   K [laughing]: Yeah, exactly, something like Lord of the Rings or Star Trek where there’s just layers and layers of history and characters and different races and species and it’s so expansive that you can just keep adding and adding to it. So what’s the right way to make sure you don’t write yourself into a corner? Well the thing is, if you’re gonna keep developing your worldbuilding, you’re going to [write yourself into a corner] eventually.   R: Yeah. The fun part of being a writer is figuring out how to get yourself out of that corner without being able to change the stuff that’s already been published. I’ve done it! [giggles]   K: Yeah! Leaving yourself some backdoors, if you will, is not a bad idea.   R: Although that requires that you -   K: Plan them.   R: - predict a little bit of the trouble you might run into.   K: Which is a very possible thing to do.   R: If you have a magic system that has a bunch of rules, you could always say “but then there’s Chaos Magic.” And then Chaos Magic can just be a little bit of the antirule that you need later on.   K: Yeah, making something forbidden or the lost art, something that no one has access to, just to have in your back pocket -   R: But just know your readers are gonna wanna hear about it.   K: Yes, absolutely.   R: You might have to write a novella outside your main storyline just to satisfy some readers about that lost locked tomb art of chaos magic.   K [overlapping]: Yeah, Chekov’s Chaos Magic. But again, Rekka’s right then, if you bring something like that up and you’re like yeah, well, that’s forbidden, nobody practices that anymore, you don't have to say, but you have to indicate why. Was it because they destroyed the world, was it because whoever used it died horribly -   R: [giggles]   K: - was it because they just forgot how to do it? There’s historical instances of that, Greek fire is a real thing that existed that we lost the recipe for and nobody can make. There’s theories as to what it was but [laughing] no one can recreate it.   R: And maybe we should leave it that way.    K: Yeah probably but -   R: But what kind of book would it be if we did?   K [laughing]: Exactly.   R: And that’s the other part of it, it’s not just making it explained ‘cause you don’t wanna be like “there’s this forbidden art which we don’t do ‘cause it killed people,” like okay yeah fine, but that forbidden art is gonna be in this book. You say forbidden as a storyteller and I expect somebody to crack that nut.   K: Yeah, the readers will start salivating at that point.   R: Mhm.   K: I’ve read books where there were things that were mentioned that never were discussed again and it's infuriating.    R: Yeah, what happened to the fireworks factory?   K [laughing]: Yeah that’s exactly -   R: That’s a Simpsons reference, yeah.   K: Got too close to the Greek fire.   [both laughing]   R: Yeah, well, there ya go.   K: So how to not write yourself into a corner, the best advice I can give is try to leave yourself a backdoor. And this means that you have done a really good job of worldbuilding, because as Rekka said, you’re anticipating where you could run into problems. And that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t go down that road, it just means that you also need to have another road that you can diverge onto -   R: [laughing]   K: - in order to circumvent this problem and come up behind it, attack it, defeat it, be victorious over your own book.   R: I mean that’s the goal every time.   K: Yeah. Yeah, you really are just sort of in the act of defeating something.   R: Take your project and beat it into submission.   [both laughing]   R: That’s actually writing.   K: [laughing] Will be defeated into the ground.   R: Hey, I am learning right now with puppy training that what you wanna do is be more interesting than the problem -   K: Yep.   R: - so that you can distract and be fun, and reward. So I feel like that’s a good way to - can we apply that to writing, can we just distract the reader from the flaws -   K: No.   R: - in our logic, and the rules -   K: Nope.   R: - that we backed ourselves into?   K: Nope. [laughing]   R: But it works - what if there are liver treats?   K: [laughing] I don’t want any of those.   R [overlapping]: Squeak toys?   K [laughing]: Okay, I’ll take a squeaky toy.   R [laughing]: Okay.   K: But you know, the thing is Rekka, eventually I’m gonna chew the squeaky toy apart and then I’m gonna be like hey, wait, hang on, you promised me forbidden chaos magic.   R: Well, too bad, I have to take you to the vet because you swallowed the valve and now we have to have [laughing] your stomach operated on.   K: [laughing] Yeah, so you can keep trying to distract the reader but eventually you’re gonna have to answer for these things.   R: Okay what if your story is so interesting that the forbidden magic is actually the least interesting thing that you’re talking about in your plot?   K: Alright, I’ll give you a pass there.   R: Alright! I win!   K: [laughing]   K: I’m curious what you’re gonna come up with that’s more interesting than [laughing] forbidden chaos magic.   R [overlapping]: I didn’t say I was gonna write this. I’m not gonna write this.   K: Now I need it, I need to know what you’re gonna come up with that’s more interesting than forbidden chaos magic.   R [groaning]: Fiiiine.   K: [laughing]   R: Fine, I’ll work this into my next project.   K: Excellent. So yeah, I think that’s some of the fundamentals on worldbuilding. I’m sure we'll talk more about this in the future. Oh, you know what, one last thing. If you’re having trouble with worldbuilding and you just really do not know where to start, go get the Dungeons & Dragons official manual, because it actually has a guide for worldbuilding in there.   R: Hm.   K: It’s not perfect, it’s not the end all be all, but if you’re just really at a loss, not a bad place to start to help get some of your thoughts organized. And there are things online that are similar to this, they’ll give you steps to take like, “okay think about this, now think about this.”   R: Yeah I would say that Wonderbook by Jeff VanderMeer et al is about writing but it’s also - there’s a lot of worldbuilding in there and could get your brain really juiced about different things to consider.   K: By the way, if you’re having trouble with worldbuilding, if you’re going, well I need to create this whole alien society and culture and religious system and everything and you’re really having trouble coming up with it, maybe that’s a good time to take a step back and go: maybe that’s not the kind of book I should be writing right now. Can the story be set on Earth and with people and maybe the aliens are just on Earth so that’s minimized your worldbuilding requirements.   R: It’s about the size and shape of the story you enjoy writing. Because you could enjoy watching a movie where it’s all way deep space, but do you enjoy writing it as much as you enjoy when other people do that work.   K: Yeah, exactly.   R: You have a choice.   K: Got a few of them. [laughing]   R: Unless you were hired to ghostwrite this story and you’re stuck.   K: No, then that’s your problem.   R: If you’ve gotten to the point where you’re being hired to write other peoples’ stories, it probably means you already know what to do here.   K [laughing]: Yeah.   R: So write in and tell us.   K: And Rekka, if they wanna write in -   R: You can find us on Instagram and Twitter and at WMBcast.com for all our old episodes and if you are loving the commentary [laughing] along with the puppy barks and actual useful advice from Kaelyn, then you can support us at Patreon.com/WMBcast.   K: Hopefully as always, this was at least educational and entertaining.   R: Or at least useful.   K: At least a little bit useful, yeah, if nothing else, you go to hear some puppy sounds in the back.    R: Yes. [laughing]   K: That’s always a bonus.   R: Let’s see how many I can edit out.   [both laughing]   R: This might just be Evie’s episode, co-host Evie.   K: So thanks everyone and we’ll see you in two weeks!   R: Talk to you next time.

We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns for us to address in future episodes. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode Transcript (by Tori P) [Upbeat Ukulele Intro Music] This is We Make Books, a podcast about writing publishing and everything in between. Rekka is a published Science Fiction and Fantasy author, and Kaelyn is a professional genre fiction editor. Together, they'll tackle the things you never knew you never knew about getting a book from concept to finished product, with explanations, examples, and a lot of laughter. Get your moleskin notebook ready. It's time for We Make Books. Kaelyn: Did you get your second shot yet?   Rekka: We get it on Saturday.   K [mumbling]: Okay.   R: ‘Cause cool people get the vaccination.   K: You hear that kids? Be cool, get vaccinated.   R: Be Extremely cool. Be cool like me. [laughing] I don't know if that’s selling it but-   K: [laughing]    R: -that’s what i’m gonna go with.   K: I get mine May second. I got the moderna one so I had to wait four weeks and -   R: Mhm. Yeah, I get two weeks between mine [loudly] it depends on your publisher.   K: [laughing]    K: Speaking of things that come in part two-   R: Yep, speaking of duologies-   K: The covid duology, oh there we go.   R [overlapping]: Yes, well the vaccine duology, not the covid itself-   K [overlapping]: Yeah.   R: Because you don't wanna get covid and then long covid, that’s one duology. The duology I’m all about is the mRNA duology, let’s do that one.   K: We’ve got shots part two coming up here.   R: Mhm.   K: And you know, in many ways the vaccine is kind of similar to a duology. The first one’s the build up, the first one’s to get you a little bit of a taste there, get your immune system going like “hey, what is this? What's going on? What's happening?” and then the second one, that’s BAM, you know? like-   R: That’s when it all happens   K: - fully immune. Yeah and that’s [laughing] that’s why everyone’s getting sick from the second one.   R: Ugh yeah, I don’t think this metaphor’s gonna last us too much longer. But, we are talking today about duologies.   K: As promised.   R: Yes, we are following through on the promise, the commitment we made, to follow last episode’s trilogy discussion with a discussion of duologies, and why they are harder than the thing we made sound really hard.   K: Yeah, so. You know, last episode we talked about trilogies, and how trilogies can be really challenging, and one of the things we touched on was: if you’re really having a hard time with this, maybe you don’t have a trilogy. Maybe you have a duology. So, a duology, obviously, is a series of two books rather than a trilogy being three, although quadrilogies are becoming a thing now. Four books is getting super common. So, just to clarify some things here. If you’re going “I did not hear the word duology ever, until about a year ago, or so,” you’re right, you didn’t. [laughing] This wasn’t really a very common thing.    R: This wasn’t a thing, there was a book and a sequel but there wasn't a thing called a duology.   K: Yeah and by the way, let’s clarify this real quickly here, the difference between a book and a sequel, and a duology. A duology is a story split up into two books. A book and a sequel is, presumably, one complete story and then another complete story.   R: In the same world, usually featuring the same characters, spun off somehow.   K: Yes.   K: Contractual finite book series are kind of a relatively recent thing. You know, for those of you who have been reading science fiction and fantasy for a long time - especially, you know, when it first started, you know, the trade paperbacks and the pulp and everything was really popular - will know that series, especially genre series - and not just science fiction and fantasy: mystery, murder, thrillers, spy novels, war novels -   R: Mhm.   K: - they tended to go on infinitely. Each book would be a standalone story, sometimes encompassing a bigger arc. Fantasy, this was very common, I mean, look at the Wheel of Time -   R: You could start a series, see success, and the publisher would just keep printing it because they felt like they were printing money.   K: Yeah, and a lot of times what they would do is: you’d get a book published, and you’d establish a, typically a main character or a world, or - maybe something like an overarching story plot -   R : or a concept at least. K: Yeah, in fantasy that was a lot more common in this sort of epic quest that was just gonna keep going and going. Lord of the Rings is actually kind of unique, in that it was a specific trilogy published at that time. That wasn’t very common.   R: Right.   K: You know, these epic fantasies tended to just, they just kept writing and writing, and that's why so many of them have such complicated character family histories, a lot of world building, a lot of different races and imagined and created history in them. But anyway. Then you have some of these other series that, each book was its own individual story, and they just keep going.   R: Mhm.   K: That is not a trilogy or even a duology, even if it ended up being only two books. Trilogies and duologies have an overarching story that it’s gonna take three, two, four, however many books to tell. But with a duology - there’s a reason there aren’t a lot of these: they’re really hard to write. A lot of times when you have a duology on your hands, you’re deciding either: do I have a standalone, single book, or do I have a duology, OR, do I have this whole trilogy, or do I have a duology.   R: How much of this ends up being up to the author, and how much of it ends up being a way to market the story? Like, trilogy in general, I would imagine that an author comes in thinking: okay, I have this story and then I can see where it’s going from there and I can wrap it up in three, versus I have this story, is it too big for a book?   K: You kind of hit on something interesting there and something we talked about in the trilogies episodes, is: I have this story, is it three books? Remember what we said in the trilogies episodes, a lot of them - a lot of contracts are: “we’re buying the first book of your trilogy, and then the next two are contingent on sales.”    R: Mhm.   K: So the first book, typically, is somewhat a self contained story. It’s enticing you to the second and third books, but if that’s it, it's a satisfactory ending.   R: Mhm.   K: That does not happen with a duology. Duology -   R: You will not have a satisfying ending, got it. [giggles]   K: You are not gonna have a satisfying ending in the middle of a duology. There is an appeal in marketing for duologyies. Some people don’t want to commit years to waiting for the next book to come out. They just want two books to be done and come out and, by the way, that tends to happen with duologies. Because it’s one big story, you probably get it out faster. Duologies, when someone sits down to write them, you tend to write the entire thing, or at least do really good draft work on the entire story, because at some point you gotta decide where to stop the first book.    R: Can’t you just, like, divide the page number in half?   K: What I would do usually is drop it on the floor, pick up one page, and that was the end of the first book. [pause] Sometimes it was the fifth page into the book, it was really awkward. [laughing] but you know-   R [overlapping]: I was gonna say like, if I just picked up a stack of papers of a printed manuscript and dropped it on the floor, I think the cover page would be the first one I pick up.   K: Well, you have to throw it down the stairs so that it gets a nice -   R: Oh, you have to be specific about your method -   K: Yeah, yeah I’m sorry, you’re right.   R: - we’re supposed to be providing usable advice.   K: Stand at the top of the stairs, face backwards with the stair behind you. You take the unbound pages, throw them over your head, walk halfway down the stairs and pick up a page from the middle stair. And then that’s the end of the first book.   R: What if nothing settles on the middle stair?   K: You gotta get all the pages and do it again.   [both laughing]   R: But you have to put them back in order first- K [laughing]: Yeah, exactly.   R: - because otherwise it’s not authentic. Okay but joking aside, I think you were about to give us very good advice on how you do choose that moment.   K: Okay so, this goes to why duologies are so difficult to write because stories, traditionally, have a beginning, middle, and end. Anything that you’re telling somebody, be it what you ordered for lunch, or your epic road trip doing the Cannonball Run, is going to have a beginning, middle, and end. Granted, in one of them you end up in Los Angeles, exhausted and smelling funny, and in the other, maybe you have a disappointing sandwich from Subway.   K: But there is - so, in a duology, you’re not breaking this up into three pieces, you're taking something that is three segments and doing it in two. This is why they’re hard to write, because  where does the “middle” of the story go? There’s some different schools of thought on this. One of the less popular, if you will, is that the first book of a duology is actually setting up the main story of the second. I don’t buy this. [chuckles] I don’t go along with that because -   R: Yeah, ‘cause that’s what you were sort of saying the trilogy does.   K: Exactly, yes. But also because it’s only two books, you've gotta get going here a little bit. You can’t make the reader think that they just read however many hundred pages of world building. The middle of a duology, in my estimation, should be at the of the first book. This is where everything should really pick up, and the plot and the stakes should be clear. If you finish the first book in a duology and do not have clear, compelling stakes, motivation, and reasoning behind the characters and what they were doing, that’s probably not a good place to end the duology. And if you’re going “well I don't get to that until this point,” maybe you don’t have a duology. Maybe you have a single book and it’s really long and you’ve gotta trim some stuff down.   R [laughing]: I thought you were gonna say “maybe you have a trilogy” and I was like wait a minute!   K [laughing]: No, no.   R: I feel like I’m stuck in an infinite loop!   K: No, but at that point, you may have a single book. And this is hard to - it’s hard to make that distinction of: “Is this a standalone single book or is this a duology?” So, what might make something a duology, why might you want to write a duology rather than a single book?   R: This is sort of what you're describing to me is that I’ve got like a 225,000 word story -   K: Mhm.   R: - and there are, as you described, as a failpoint in choosing where to split them, that there’s a lot of world building.   K: Yes.   R: So what you seem to be describing to me is a book where the author really takes their time developing a world and developing concepts and digging deep into whatever the story elements are.   K: Yes, nailed it.   R: So where I break that is, I assume, where a smaller plot point that maybe had some big stakes is resolved but the overall story is not resolved.   K: I’ll give you the opposite of that, what about a point at which it’s escalated?   R: Well, of course by solving a thing, you’ve fucked up and made it worse.   K: [laughing]   K: Of course, of course.   R: Of course, so that’s - that’s the solve point, is that you didn't solve anything by completing the action you thought was going to solve things. K: Yeah, so duologies have this weird balancing act where you can't backload the end of the first book and you can't front load the beginning of the second. The way these kind of work, and you have to remember that coming at this from the perspective of a reader, there are absolutely very successful books that the next in a series picks up and it’s just chaos and you get thrown right back into it. But frequently you've gotta build the story up again, you’ve gotta ease the reader back into what was going on, remind them of what was happening here, and then, typically reassess and recenter your story and characters. Because at the end of the first book, something should have happened that’s gonna require that they do that.   K: So, duologies are really great for when authors wanna take their time and give a lot of attention and detail to characters, to worldbuilding, to story arcs, to history. It’s taking a long story and breaking it up into two. And so if you’re wondering: well how come there's like 700 page books in the world, why -   R [chuckling]: Right.    K: Yeah, “why isn’t everything just one really long book?” There’s a few answers for that. One is that some publishers are going: “No one is going to just pick up your 700 page book and read this. We need to break this up into two books.” But the other is that in some cases, those giant 700 page books, they’re really just one story. And even though I keep saying a duology is one story, you’re telling it in two parts. So they each have to have their own story elements to them.   R: So there’s an intermission, the curtain drops, you feel like that could have been a mini play but it’s not over yet, you know, let’s come back to see where that cliffhanger leads us.   K: An intermission’s actually a really good way to describe it. You know, think of most plays that you’ve seen or even old movies like Gone With the Wind where there was an intermission. The intermissions are not typically dead smack in the middle of the story.   R: No, when you come back the story has changed -   K: Yes.   R: - something has shifted. I think an example of this that everyone is probably fairly familiar with, at least from Spotify, is Act I vs. Act II of Hamilton.   K: Yes.   R: Very very different experiences. Act I is energy, it’s building up, it’s all this hope, and then Act II is all this grief, and all this loss, and all this settling, and rediscovering hope. It’s very -   K [overlapping]: I was gonna say the Phantom of the Opera.   R: Yeah.   K: Act I is very mysterious and almost enchanting and like wow, you know, look at this.   R: Mhm.   K: Act II of Phantom of the Opera, you come back and you’re like, oh this Phantom is dangerous.   R: Yeah.   K: The tone of everything has shifted to this sort of fanciful “oh yes haha the opera ghost, oh this is such a funny, silly little inconvenience” to “this guy’s gonna kill all of us.”   R: Yeah.   K: So there’s renewed sense of urgency, the stakes are much more clear -   R: Mhm.   K: - and there’s - R: There’s an immediate action that needs to happen in order to save someone’s life.   K [overlapping]: Yes. Exactly, yes, that’s what I was trying to articulate there.   [both laughing]   K: So that is another good component of a duology is, by the second part of the story, something should have shifted.   R: And you gotta act right away, there’s no time to open up your world and introduce characters and all that kind of stuff, you have to get going.   K: The best duologies I’ve read have such a distinct difference between the first and second book, with what I think of the characters and how they’re behaving. If you Google “duology” right now, the first thing that’s gonna come up is The Six of Crows.    R: Mhm.   K: Part of the reason for that is because the Netflix series Shadow and Bone is being released two days after we’re recording this, and they’re incorporating elements from the duology into the trilogy. So, search engine algorithms being what they are... but I read the books; I thoroughly enjoyed them. The first one is very much a heist book. The second one is as well, but the stakes of it have been escalated to the point that it’s “oh, it’s not just that we’re stealing this thing that we want, we are now having to get stuff to save, not only ourselves, but a lot of other people from suffering a terrible fate.”   R: Yeah. You said it was hard though, but then you said it was just “picking a good spot in your book to split it,” so why is that specifically hard?   K: I think, where that becomes hard, is if you don’t know what you have on your hands. If you have -   R [overlapping]: So it’s more in the determination of whether you should split it, or -   K: Yes.   R: - extend it or just publish as is.   K: Well, so there’s two components of this. First is identifying: do I have a duology vs a standalone book or a trilogy.    R: Mhm.   K: If you have a standalone book, and you’re like “well this is just gonna be long and that’s just how it’s gonna go,” then you write the book and that’s what it is. If you’re looking at this and going “I have a duology,” there’s something in there that is indicating to you that this is a duology rather than a standalone book. A lot of times that is that breaking point, so, sometimes finding the part where the first story should stop and the second should start isn’t that hard, but then actually digging down into it and making sure that you’re telling a compelling, engaging story in both parts, can be very difficult. Because you may say “oh this is the perfect part, the door has burst open, everybody’s gasped and we’re cutting it off there.” Is that the best place to end your story? Or do you go to the Pirates of the Caribbean route and reveal that it’s Captain Barbossa coming down the stairs at the end.   R: Mhm.   K: And intrigue the heck out of everybody else.   R: I feel like we could do a whole episode on reveals, so maybe we’ll -   K [laughing]: Yeah, maybe we will.   R: - just put a pin in that one ‘cause I wanna talk about that but let’s do that in another episode. Okay, so is that a matter of how much satisfaction you are willing to give your reader at the end of book one, versus just lopping it off where it is the most convenient between what is essentially the midpoint of an arc that can feel like a partial arc or a semi completed arc.   K: So I think with duologies, there’s a lot more leeway to, I don't wanna say mess with, but to play with -   R: [giggles] Be honest, we are messing with our readers. We are always messing with our readers.   K: [giggles] - to play with reader expectation because people who are reading a duology presumably understand that what they’re reading is part one of a story that’s gonna be told in two parts.    R: Do we know when we have a duology though? Is it made very clear when the first book is released? ‘Cause I don't feel like it is.   K: I think that’s a matter of advertising and publishing. Most duologies that I’ve come across, and by the way, this is very common now in publishing because they plan much farther ahead than they used to. The series are finite, you’re contracted for this much, so typically, before a trilogy or duology is actually released, the series already has a name, the books might say, you know, definitely in their description and Amazon and Barnes and Noble, if not on the book itself, book one of however many in the series or book one of the such and such duology, book two of the such and such trilogy.   R: I would say that there are as many new books on my shelf that do not indicate how big the series is going to be as there are that do.   K: Mmkay. But in Amazon -   R: In fact - well maybe in Amazon but you can only create series on Amazon when you have more than one book in it. You know what I mean?   K [overlapping]: Yes, yes.   R: So -   K: But in the description a lot of times it will say that, the cover copy could say that. Publishers sort of expect at this point that anybody who really enjoys a book or even things that they’re thinking of reading, they’re gonna go research it, and, if nothing else, the publisher will likely have something on their website or some description about how long the series is going to be.   R: You give the reader a lot of credit for researching a book.   K: When you go to pick up a book, and it’s clear that it’s a series, you don’t go and see how many books it’s gonna -   R: [overlapping] You think it’s clear that it’s a series, that’s the part I’m debating. I cannot tell you how many books I’ve picked up only to find out - I’ve got one right around here somewhere - I picked up this book -   K: [speech garbled through laughter]   R: Endgame by Anne Aguirre.   K: Yep.   R: “A Sirantha Jax novel” is all it said on the cover. To me, that did not indicate that this was the last book in a six book series. I read the last book first.    K: [laughing]   R: And I read it anyway even though I figured out within a few chapters that it was the last book in a series. But I have done this my entire life. You’d think that, after a few, I would learn. So what is it that does not indicate anywhere on here, that this is a long running series, this is book six in a series? I picked it up because of the cover art. That is always what I do.   K: [laughing]   R: And there was nothing on this to indicate it was book six out of six. That - it was called Endgame and I did not understand that it was endgame of the series.   K [laughing, overlapping]: Yeah, I’m starting - I’m starting to think that -   R: So you may be doubting me, but I’m just saying, I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, I would like to think.   K: [laughing]   R: But on a bookstore shelf, this was the only one there, the bookstore didn’t put out the other books next to it, you know? So why was I supposed to know that this was from a series? There’s literally nothing on here that says “by the way, you picked up a book that’s part of a series, you might wanna go check out book one.”    K: Well, I will say that’s bad marketing and bad work on the publisher’s part.   R: But I wasn’t exposed to the marketing, other than the cover. I was not exposed to the marketing, this was before I started writing and publishing. So -   K: But the cover is marketing.   R: No, I understand that. The cover is product design and marketing, just like the box for a microwave would be. So yes, this was supposed to be marked as book six. If I had seen “book six,” I might have looked for book one. But Ace Science Fiction, an imprint of Penguin, did not deign to make any sort of indication on the outside, presumably because they thought it was pretty clear because of course you’ve heard of Anne Aguirre and of course you have heard of the Sirantha Jax novels by then. But I hadn’t, so I picked up book six in a series and I read it without any backstory, and I really did feel rather dumped into a world that other people knew about.   K: How was it?   R: Um. It was fine.   K: So, here’s what -   R [overlapping]: Some things were not my mode but that’s okay.   K: [laughing]   R: It’s still in my shelf so it can’t be that bad.   K [laughing]: Okay, fair. Yeah, listen, the - how do you know that something is a duology, a trilogy, a what have you?   R: And is your publisher making the conscious choice to not indicate that?   K [overlapping]: That’s very possible-   R: - do they think they are indicating that, you might wanna run it by your grandma or -   K: Rekka.   R: - somebody who hasn’t -   K: [laughing]   R: picked up a book off a shelf apparently without ever failing to pick up the third book in a series.   K: You did tend to to do that quite a lot.   R: I did it a lot as a kid, I think - I picked up The Babysitter’s Club at book number twenty-four and I guarantee you that bookstore had all of them.   K: Wasn’t that all like, standalone stories, kind of, though?   R: Well they were procedural in that every book started with the main character’s POV introducing all of the babysitters in the club, and giving them some tidbit to characterize them that was also a little bit of backstory from one of the other episodes, and - I mean they really were episodes, they were not so much sequels as episodes - and then you’d go into the meat of the story, and everything would return to normal, there might be small developments and like, there was continuity through the books but the characters got older, they added new babysitters to the club, some left, you know, stuff happened and then it didn’t unhappen at the end of the book.  But even though, yes, any book would have been an entry point in the series, I guarantee you I just picked up a book from the middle of the long, very uniform looking line of Babysitter’s Club books, and this one was about a cat, so -   K: Aw, kitty. [giggles]   R: - I got that one. ‘cause Tigger ran away and was missing -   K: Aw :(   R: - so that was the first book I read out of that series! And then I read them a lot, this was my first experience with sequels, so it’s no wonder that I have no problem imagining that you would stick with a world forever and ever and ever and never write anything else. But I also read the rest out of order.   K: Yeah.   R: Like I had no respect for the concept of “oh! I should go back to the beginning and read forward,” that - I read number ten and then I’d read number eighteen, then I’d read number two; I just didn’t care. So it’s interesting to me, like, yes that was me at age twelve -   K: Well, also -   R: - that was very different from an adult reader, but as an adult reader obviously I have continued this. The Chanur saga, I think I read book two before I read book one, I didn’t care. Plus, if the book’s written well enough, you get introduced to it and you don’t lose anything for not reading the first one first in a series, an intentional series, but here we come back to the idea of duology; if you pick up book two in a duology, you have missed some shit.    K: Yeah, and I completely disagree with you, and this may just be -   R: [laughing] Of course you do.   K:  No, this may be just a compulsive thing on my end: I can’t not read a series from the beginning.   R: No, see, I am completely all about my organizational tics, but for whatever reason, growing up, reading books in order was not a big deal to me. And I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was not aware that if I asked the bookseller to get me book one because I was picking up book two and I wanted to start from the beginning, that I would have it pretty soon. Like, in my head, that would be -   K: Yeah.   R: - weeks and weeks and weeks of waiting. Plus, in my head, it probably cost more. Like I thought I would have to pay for shipping, I thought I would have to pay for a book that would, like he’d charge me twice as much just because I wanted it.   K: And see that’s just -   R: And also I would have to speak to a human and ask for something which I was very much not all in for, so.   K: And this just goes to show how funny and different we were as kids, because I remember there were book series that, I would go to the library and I would - this is, I’m about to demonstrate something about myself that I have kept secret - I’ve read all of the Wizard of Oz books.   R: Oh, cool! I always meant to.   K: And - they’re interesting. [chuckles] and my library didn’t have book seven, out of, like I think there’s like ten or twelve of them in the series, and I had to get it from my county’s huge central library, and my mom was like “well, just get book eight!” and I was like I can’t, I can’t do that, I will wait two weeks for that book to get here -   [both laughing]   K: But something like - okay, well, getting back on track [chuckles] here, something like The Babysitter’s Club, as you said, each book - the reason the POV character is introducing everyone is there’s a lot of books in this series. The Boxcar Children was like that; the first one is about a group of relatively young children running away from some abusive family member and deciding to live in an abandoned boxcar in the forest, and then eventually their wealthy grandfather finds them, and then every other book is about them solving mysteries [laughing].   R: Oh! Okay.   K: The first book is like a weird survivalist book and then every other one is just them [through laughter] travelling with their grandfather and solving mysteries.   R: At least the continuity is intact.   K: But with duologies, we’re gonna assume that this is a known duology - and I couldn't find any example of this, I swear I did look - a duology that started out intentionally a duology but then became a trilogy after book one was published. I couldn’t find any examples of it, I’m sure it’s happened but, in theory, especially in publishing and especially with contracts being what they are now, you’re going to have - especially for a duology - a contractual set of the books that are going to be in it, the two books. You may even have some specifics in there about book one: this stuff has to happen, book two: this stuff has to happen. Publishers are a lot more hands on with these kinda things now, because before it was just like “cool, you got another one? cool, you got another one? Alright, let’s get the next tale of the otherworldly alien investigator who came to Earth to find the stolen gem of her people but solves mysteries along the way.”    K: So, with a duology, and with where the middle of this is, and what you can play with with reader expectations. I would say you absolutely have a little more leeway. “What if they don’t know it’s a duology?” Well, that's on the reader. I don’t - there’s no good answer -   R: Or is it on the publisher and their marketing department? [laughing]   K: Or that. The thing is that you could stick right on the cover: Book One of the, you know, We Make Books Duology. Maybe someone doesn’t read it, there’s no way to make everyone understand what this series is going to look like. I never buy a book before I know, you know - is it a trilogy that I’m getting myself into here, is it a duology, is this just gonna keep going on and on forever? I understand not everyone’s like that, most people are far less - what’s the word I’m looking for here - less fussy than I am. [laughter] Some people are just pure chaos like Rekka, who walk into bookstores, pull something off the shelf, and just go “look’s good!” [laughter]   R: I’m here for a good time!   [both laughing]   R: Look, I’ve found a lot of books I liked that way.   K: Yeah! No, that’s great.   R: Mhm.   K: But I remember going to Barnes and Noble back when I was in high school and college and we used to hang out there, and they would always have the table of the $5 books -   R: Mhm.   K: If they didn’t have books one and two and this was just book three, I wasn’t gonna pick it up and read it because I needed to know how it got there [laughing]. I think with duologies, you definitely have a little bit more room to play with that because the understanding is that this is more like a first and second act. And the reader should understand that: “you’re being presented half of a story, the second half is coming.” And there’s a difference between having halves of a story versus having to present a whole coherent story like you have to when you get into trilogy mode. Because if you’re breaking up a story into three parts, the first part is going to be really dry if you’re just telling one long, giant story.    R: Yeah ‘cause that’s set up still, that’s just pure set up.   K: Yeah. Find a 700 page book. Go to page - what would it be? - 233 and, in that area, decide if you think that’s about a good place to end a first book that seems like a good story has been told. Now conversely, I would say that picking up a 700 page book and going in the middle could go either way. Depending how the story’s structured, maybe that is an interesting middle-halfway-stopping point. There’s a good chance that it’s not because standalone stories tend to be backloaded.   R: Right.   K: Most of the action, adventure, and intrigue, happens in the last third of the book.   R: I would even say -   K: Last quarter?   R: Last quarter of the book, yeah.   K: How do you know if you have a duology vs a trilogy vs a standalone book?   R: Someone tells you.   K: [laughing] You know what? Honestly, that might be the answer.   [both laughing]   K: That really might be the answer.   R: Please, someone tell me!   K: [laughing]   K: An agent, a publisher, a good friend who reads your stuff might say: “This isn’t a standalone story, this is two books.” You know, with a trilogy it’s a little easier. Are you having trouble filling the middle book? Are you having trouble figuring out what’s gonna happen in book two, and are you just coming up with stuff because you need to create -   R: A third book, yeah.   K: - about 300 pages of content so that you can get to the third book? That’s a good indication that maybe you don’t have a trilogy, maybe you have a duology. For a standalone book, it gets a little harder. One is length. There aren’t a lot of 700 page books published anymore and, depending on the genre you’re writing in, there might be none of them. Fantasy tends to have a little bit more tolerance for that kind of length -   R: We wouldn’t have the phrase “doorstopper” in our current lingo if they weren’t really happening anymore. I think they are still happening. Like you have Jenn Lyons.   K: Yep.   R: Jenn Lyons writes some big books and there’s like, five of them [giggles] in a single series.   K: But you brought up a very interesting point: why we have those doorstopper books. Because, for a publisher - first of all, a duology however many years ago, even a decade ago, that was not a very common thing.   R: Mhm.   K: But if you had a long story, and especially if the publisher was uncertain about it, it was cheaper and less of a risk for them to just do a giant run of one big book, rather than two smaller or three smaller ones.   R: Okay. Because you lose readers as you go further down the series.   K: Well you lose readers, but there’s also overhead.   R: Right.   K: It’s cheaper to publish one giant book than it is to publish two smaller ones.   R: Right because you need cover artists, you pay the printer for each one of those sets, you print a minimum quantity for each of those, yeah. No, I’m not arguing that with you, I’m just saying like -   K: Yeah.   R: - one of the considerations is also to be: how will you be able to earn that back if you lose 20% of the readers each sequel down the line.   K: Yeah, exactly. There’s a lot of factors in why publishers might say, “nope, this is just gonna be one giant book.”   R: No, there’s one factor: it’s money.   [both laughing]   K: There’s a lot of factors that go into the money factor. [laughing]   R: The accountant is taking many things into consideration.   K: Yeah [laughing]. Touché, Rekka.   R: Mhm.   K: But, if you’re writing this story and there is a lot of stuff happening in the first half of the book that is then still not resolved when you’re getting towards the end, you might have a duology on your hands. Now granted, you may be like: “Oh well it’s only 180,000 words.” Well, yeah, maybe you gotta write a little more and flesh this out a bit. The times that I see books where I tell myself this should have been a duology - or authors that I’ve spoken to - are when I'm having trouble keeping track of everything that’s going on because you’re packing too much into this. The best case for a duology is when the reader is feeling like they’re being bombarded with information without proper time to absorb it and apply it to the story.   R: So are you squeezing everything into one side or the other of the fold which is the tear that becomes the intermission in your duology.   [both laughing]   K: Yes, exactly.   R: That’s the official term for it.   K: Yeah, and look, there’s - thankfully in publishing, there’s no standards, there’s no ‘we always do it this way’, ‘if you have this then it’s this,’ no one is going to go: “Sorry Random House, you’re not allowed to publish a 700 page book.” They can publish whatever they want, so if they - R: I mean there is a point at which the book is structurally unsound because it’s more spine than cover.   K: [laughing] Yes, alright, fair, fair.   K: You have leeway, and publishers have leeway for this, and really, there is no correct answer except: what serves the story best? How is this best told? How are you best engaging the reader? In some cases - I’ll use The Six of Crows as an example. I don't think that book works if you take the two halves of that, smoosh it together, do a little creative bridging in the middle, and just present it as one giant book. It doesn’t work. The tone shift between the two is so important that there’s intermission and that you come back and you’re like: “Oh boy, what’s gonna happen now?”   R: Okay, so is that - do you think that’s a critical part of it? Do you have to do that, or you think it just happens naturally because you’re taking a break from one story and coming back with the second piece?   K: I think it tends to happen naturally but, at the same time, this is kind of going into what we were talking about last episode with book two of a trilogy which is: you can’t tell the same story all over again. So presumably at the end of book one, enough has happened to the characters and the story arc where things have changed. So, by virtue of that alone, book two is going to be different.   R: Right.   K: I’ll make the argument, in a trilogy the same thing’s gonna happen. The tones of the books as the progress should be getting more urgent or darker or more mysterious, hopeful, whatever you’re building towards -   R [overlapping]: Sort of like an adventurous story to a, like the fate of the world  -   K: Yeah.   R: - literally the fate of the souls of the world are at stake.   K: The stakes should be being escalated, the characters should be very clear in their motivations. The plot should be very clear cut at that point and there should be a clear point to which the characters, the objects, the McGuffins, the story is moving towards at that point. The end of book one, the reader should have a very good idea of what the objectives are of book two. Now if they work out that way or not, that’s up to the reader, you know, maybe throw a twist or a loop in there or something, and the plan never goes according to plan because plans shouldn’t go according to plans in books -   R: Right. Right.   K: But the reader should have an idea of what they’re in store for in book two. Even if it’s not how that ends up going, the characters should be telling them: “Okay, we've gotta do this.”   R: Mhm. Aaaaaand cut.   [both laughing]   R: “We’ve gotta do this, and we’ll see ya in a year.”   K: Well, you know, duologies tend to come out a little closer together because, as I mentioned, the overall story is frequently written at the same time. And then maybe - okay you’ve done a lot of work on the first book to get it published and now it’s time to do that, but a lot of times it’s written already, it exists -   R: Whereas they really throw writers out and to the wolves for their trilogy like, yeah, we’ve signed you up for a trilogy, how’s that coming? “Uhhh, I don’t really know how it’s gonna end? But it’s great?”   K: You also get all of these contradicting things of: don’t tell them you’ve written all three books already; no, tell them so they know that they’re done; okay, but we just really want book one to have a nice conclusive ending, so I’m gonna need you to rewrite the end of that and then retool the beginning of the first two and figure how that’s gonna fit into the third.   R: And you better hope that the first two sell well, or you don't get to see the third.   K: Writing’s hard.   R: Yeah, so that’s a big part of it though, I never considered that when you sign a duology, you might have already talked to the publisher about where the pair of books is going to go.   K: Yeah, nobody writes a duology with the understanding of: “You need to have a nice neat ending for book one. [laughing] We’ll see how that -” I shouldn't say no one, I’m sure it’s happened. But I would argue in that case that that’s not really a true duology; that’s more of a couple standalone books.   R: So a short sequel run -   K: Yes.   R: - of a single world.    K: Yeah, exactly.   R: So, going back to your definitions then.   [happy go lucky ukelele music]  Rekka: [sing-song] Definitions!    Rekka: And listeners, Kaelyn doesn’t know what I did with that, so don’t tell her. So I think we need to reset our definition because you were defining it earlier in the episode and, to a degree, it felt like you were defining it as a single story divided in two pieces, and then later you said it was not a duology if it’s not a single story, but then, kind of maybe it is? I’m a little confused, so start over.   Kaelyn: SO definitions of duologies and trilogies. The actual definition of them is: “however many stories - two, three, four - of related work in a group.” So this might be the same story, the same world, the same characters. What they typically do is they say: “If you’ve written three books, they’re all about an alien investigator but they’re all individual stories” - Alien Investigator Trilogy. Duology, same thing. Technically any three books or any two books or four books, or whatever you wanna call it, is a “that.” Now, at a certain point - and I don’t know where this point is - I think you stop applying the duo- tri- quad- etc. to it and it just becomes a series. Now, from my side, what really defines a duology or a trilogy is the intent of the overarching story plot. That you didn’t just write three books because you had three stories in you so it ended up being a trilogy. You didn’t just come up with two stories and now it’s a duology.   K: There’s some - I won’t say argument about this, but I think it’s something that we see more in publishing now, that if you're contracted for a trilogy, the presumption is going to be that the trilogy is three books explaining a single story. It’s a single story arc. It may take a long time to get there, but -   R: Mhm.   K: - if they’re signing you up for three books that’s in the same world but not in the same story arc, that’s a three book contract, that’s not a trilogy contract. R: Okay, fair.   K: So that’s the distinction I would make. That said, by broad definition, duologies - trilogies, we’re just obsessed with the number three?   R: It’s a nice balanced number, you know?   K: Yeah. Three and seven. But I think this goes back to the ease of the beginning, middle and end. And that’s where I think trilogies and duologies really shine through is this intentional story of : It’s gonna take me this long to do it versus just writing books and however many you end up with, adding that number label to it. I would say, something like a duology contract vs a two book contract, and I don’t know that I’ve ever really heard of two book contracts unless [laughing] it’s a duology.   R: But I have seen a lot of contract announcements, book sale announcements lately that said:  “So-and-So’s Title plus an unnamed future book.”   K: Yes, but those would likely be standalone books.   R: Right, but it’s still a two book contract.   K: Okay, fair.   R: As opposed to just saying future works -   K: Yes. [laughing]   R: You know what I mean?   K: Yeah. And so by the way, what we’re talking about here - and I know we’ve touched on this in previous episodes, specifically the contract ones - a lot of times if you sign on with, sometimes an agent, usually a publishing house and they really like what you have and think you have the potential to grow a fanbase, they’re gonna try to lock you down. So they’re gonna say: “Cool, you’re gonna write a trilogy and three books to be named later.” It’s like signing athletes to multi-year contracts, a lot of times you have to take a chance on somebody after college or, sometimes in the NBA, right out of high school. You don’t know how they’re gonna perform, they’re gonna need training, they’re gonna need help. So you have to put the time and investment into them and you wanna make sure that if they turn out to be really good they’re not just gonna go “Hey thanks but I’m gonna go to New York because they’re gonna pay me twice as much as you did.”    R: Right, right, now that you’ve proven yourself. Now it’s good if you get a multi book contract from a single publisher and maybe your debut launch isn’t as strong as you hoped, and it takes two books to kinda gain some traction. That’s good for the author but -   K: Yep.   R: Like we said, if the other team would have paid you twice as much, now you’re stuck selling your book for debut prices. Which, okay yes, we’ve all heard about the debut windfalls, but debut authors don’t typically make a whole lot of money.   K: [overlapping] Yeah, there’s a reason you hear about them, it’s because they’re a big deal.   R: Yeah, it’s ‘cause they’re outliers -    K: [laughing]   R: - much like all things we make a big fuss over, ‘cause we love a rags to riches story.   K: Yeah, so that’s why my clunky - and this is personal, sort of clunky definition of this - but I would say that that is certainly the trend of where you’re seeing these definitions in publishing is: if  you’re signed on for a trilogy, the understanding is that it’s going to be a three book story arc, if it’s a duology, it’s gonna be two.    K: When Rekka and I are finished here, I’m going to go sit down, pour myself a glass of wine, and finally try to finish the fourth book of The Ember and the Ashes quadrilogy. That’s one that I really thought was a trilogy, and I don’t know what happened there, I don’t know if it changed and they were like -   R: Aha!   K:  - “ah we’ve got more story to tell here” -   R: They got you, too. [giggles]   K: Yeah, they did get me on that one and I had to wait for quite a while for that book to come out and I just, I need to sit down and get into it, you know? [laughing]   R: Alright, well let’s wrap it up. What the heck are we talking about when we say it’s harder? Did we give concrete advice on how to tell? And you can say, like, yes, I feel like I did.   K: I feel like I did and I think I didn’t because sometimes, as you mentioned, someone else is gonna have to tell you. I think it’s easier to tell if you’re working on a trilogy that, maybe it’s a duology. Because I think when you’re hitting a wall with the trilogy, trying to come up with ways to fill the middle, that’s a good indication that you actually have a duology.    R: And now that’s gonna be harder to write because you said so.   K: [laughing] Yes.   R: Congratulations, you just leveled up.   [both laughing]   R: You had a hard time filling a middle book, now you’re gonna somehow make it worse by trying to fit everything across the divide of an intermission between two books.   K: [laughing] Yeah and, to go back to what I said -   R: So you’re welcome.   [both laughing]   K: To go back to what I said about the standalone, I think a good indication there that you may have a duology on your hands, is if you feel like you’re sprinting through information, and you’re feeling like you’re having to take things out to stay within whatever you consider to be a reasonable word count. If you feel like there’s more story there - and writers, I know you always feel like there’s more story there - if you feel like you can’t tell the story and that it’s going to be confusing, or that it’s going to lack context or information or character development or anything, that’s a good indication that you might have a duology. Because what that’s indicating is that you have a lot to show the reader, and duologies give you great room to do that.   R: So here's a thought I just had.    K: Uh oh.   R: You mentioned word count.   K: Yeah.   R: So if you’re drafting, you don't know how many words you’re gonna end up with necessarily. Is this a decision you make during revisions?   K: Listen, there’s no definitive “this is a duology” time.   R: [giggles]   K: No one’s gonna bring you into a room, put the Sorting Hat on you and go: “Duology!” [laughing]   R: So it’s not going to suddenly smack you in the head.   K: Some people absolutely set out to write duologies. They say: “I have a story that I am gonna tell in two parts.” Some people draft the whole story and go: “This is too long for a single story, or this is too short for a trilogy, maybe I have a duology.” I feel like with duologies, unless you set out to intentionally write one, you're going to have to figure it out organically somewhere along the writing process.    R: Here’s another thought.   K: You’re just full of these today.   R: Yeah, sorry about that. I will stop, next time I won't have a single one, I promise. We’ve been mentioning word count a lot as the moment where you realize you might have too much or too little, but could it also be story elements?   K: Absolutely.   R: In that, I could wrap up some of these plot elements in one book, but not the whole thing, and that there’s an equal, if not mathematically equal, number of plot elements that could wrap up if I kept going in a second book. I mean, basically, it’s all magic, right?   K: Yeah, absolutely. There’s no definitive answers here unfortunately, like so much of this. I hope if you’ve been listening to this podcast this whole time and you have come here for somebody telling you: this is how it always is, you figured out a while ago that you’re in the wrong spot.   [both laughing]   R: Or that you still have to trust our word. Just grab a big glass of wine and go read a book. It may or may not be the last in the series, we don’t know. Nobody knows!   K: We don’t know, nobody - what is even time by now? [laughing]   R: Alright, so duologies are hard, trilogies are also hard, standalone books are hard. Have I covered it?   K: Everything’s hard.    R: [overlapping] Got it. Okay, cool. We did it.   K: But they’re all hard for different reasons. [laughing]   R: Oh, now I get it. Okay.   K: Yeah. Yeah.   R: Now I get it, alright. So the point is: you write the story. Hopefully, either you know how many books you’re supposed to end up with and you can calculate out from there how you’re gonna write the story. Or you write the story and you break it up into the number of books it demands that it should be.   K: Exactly.   R: Or that your publisher demands that it should be. [chuckling]   K: My advice to people always is: write the story. Just write it. Then take a step back and see what you have.   R: [overlapping] Then do the math.    K: There’s no formula for this, there’s no ‘this must happen at this time.’ If I had astounding amount of money to just throw away at whatever, I swear I think I would hire people to select books from different genres and map out common elements of them and put them into some sort of excel spreadsheet where I could make a nice pivot table, and see where these common element points occur, and I guarantee you almost none of them would line up.   R: Okay, I know there’re people who would disagree, but we’ll have to have a debate episode sometime.   K: [laughing] Excellent, excellent.   R: So, wrapping it up, write a damn story. It’s gonna be hard enough to get it published anyway, don’t worry about it.   K: It’s gonna be hard enough just to write the thing!   [both laughing]   K: So just write it and then work from there!   R: [overlapping] Okay-   K: Tell the story you want to tell.   R: - so with that sage advice, I probably shouldn’t tell you that you can find us on twitter and Instagram @WMBCast and on Patreon.com/wmbcast, which you are definitely not gonna want to support after listening to this one.   K: [laughing]   R: But it would be helpful if you could leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, and remember to subscribe using whatever podcast app you like. And we will see you in two weeks with another poorly formed episode discussion. Thanks everyone.   K [laughing]: Thanks everyone.

This Episode: The title says it all. We need the full strength BC back!BTW I say run gunshot, not shotgun lol. Yea I'm a loser.Twitter @mistermanzfield @oldskoolfandaveANGLE FB Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1842061679439185/Theme Song - Excerpt from the new AEW Dynamite 2020 theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOETrEJkYNE(Yes, We will continue to use this until we receive a cease and desist. Hoping we do not.)Show Sponsor - Dub City Collectables: https://www.ebay.com.au/str/dubcitycollectables

Joe Biden hat die Amtseinführung unbeschadet überstanden. F**k yeah. Amerika und Inszenierung. F**k yeah. Amerika und Konsum. F**k yeah. Konsumkinder und Amerika? F**k yeah.

The team starts off by recapping the Divisional Rounds of the NFL Playoffs before giving their predictions on the Conference Championship games going into the weekend. Does Rodgers and the Packers have what it takes to beat Brady's Bucs? Will Mahomes' recent injury impact the Chiefs as they take on Josh Allen and the Buffalo Bills?Following sports, Pete brings up the recent Mega Millions, which was upwards of $750 million. This leads to the question of what the guys would do if they ever won the lottery. Alongside this, the team discusses the recent backlash that Xfinity has been getting since they implemented a data cap on their internet usage per month. Many people are unsure why they'd do this, so Tanner contacts their customer service to figure out the reasoning for doing it during a pandemic.The team concludes the episode by discussing what they've been watching on Netflix. A new hit series titled "Night Stalker" was recently released and the team gives their insight on the limited series. Who was Richard Ramirez and what exactly made him such a terrifying killer? What motivates someone to get to that point in their lives? What's with the recent intrigue in serial killers as of late? The team answers these questions, and more, in this 12th episode of The 412 Podcast!

Celebrate Christmas the right way, with Sean and Giannis as they celebrate one of the greatest Christmas films of all time: "Jingle All The Way" starring Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Follow us on Instagram and Twitter @bearandthebaby for updates on weekly picks and side bets. Week 50 of 2020.

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Send us your questions, comments, and concerns! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 46: Prologues (Advice For People Who Aren’t Famous Enough to Do Whatever They Want) transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00] R: Welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore.   K: And I’m Kaelyn Considine, I’m the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. And, um, Rekka, is this a prologue right now?   R: I think… it sets up the plot and probably gives away a lot of it, too. [giggles]   K: That’s a good point, yeah. So today we’re talking about prologues. What’s a prologue? What should it do? Do you need one?   R: I proposed this topic to Kaelyn because this is one of those things that I see a lot of writers asking for advice on, is like, “Is my prologue okay?” And that’s the whole question. And there’s some fundamental instinct on some people’s part to say, “No. Never do a prologue.” Where other people are like, “Prologues are great! I love a prologue.”   K: Yeah.   R: And nobody is addressing what is in the prologue, when they have these conversations broadly and speaking in generic terms. So we wanted to get a little less generic, a little more specific, a little bit—not prescriptive, but just descriptive. Here’s what a good prologue does. Compare to yours. Lay it over the top of yours like a sheet of vellum, and see if they match up!   K: Yeah. So, hope you enjoy and we’ll see you on the other side of the music.   [intro music plays]   R: Would you say the scroll in a Star Wars movie is a prologue?   K: Yeah. It’s serving prologue-like functions.   R: Would you say they’re good prologues?   K: Yes.   R: And then it gets you to drop right into the middle of a battle or something like that.   K: It’s saving you from having to—   R: To watch Episode I!   K, laughing: Yeah.   R: Episode I through III are the prologue for Episode IV, just so we’re clear.   K: Okay. Hey, everyone, so, welcome, and I guess what we were just talking about, that’s not considered a prologue, is it?   R: Well, you’re the editor, you tell me.   K: No, it wasn’t, and we’ll get into why. And if you tried to use that as a prologue, you shouldn't—   R: Or at least wait until you’re super famous and nobody edits you.   K: Exactly, yeah. This is only relevant until you’re super famous and then you can do whatever you want.   [both laugh]   R: So we’re talking about prologues today. It’s one of the topics that I see come up a lot between writers in various writing groups that I’m in, is this confusion over whether it’s okay or not to have a prologue. Because there’s some frequently given, offered, shoved advice that Prologues Are Bad, Don’t Do Prologues, but then people look to very famous, very successful books and series and see prologues. And want to know where the line is.   K: I think there’s this prevailing sentiment, and it’s relatively new, that you don’t need prologues. Prologues are bad. And I think this is because for a couple decades before this, we were sort of inundated with prologues. Like every book had a prologue and not every one of them, I would go so far as to say that a small percentage of them were super necessary and served the direct actual function of a prologue.   Before we get too far into this, let’s talk really quickly about the actual definition of a prologue and then what it really does as a literary device. Prologue comes from the Greek, of course it does—   R, laughing: Of course it does!    K: Prologos which means “before word” or “before the word.” This one is a theater function, essentially. It would be the person during Greek dramas and tragedies that would come out and set the scene. They’d stand on the stage, they’d tell a little bit about, “Hey, here’s what’s going on, here are our characters. Our dramatitis personae.” DId I say that right?   R: Nope.   K, laughing: Dramatis personae. Then you go into the story.    R: A good example of this that most people are familiar with is gonna be Romeo and Juliet. It starts with a prologue.   K: Yes, exactly. Yes. Now, in literature, a prologue is an establishing device. It’s different, I want to be really clear, it’s different from a preface. Because a preface is strictly introductory. It’s an introduction to the book or to other literary work written by the author that is relevant to this. A preface is not the story. It is somebody breaking the fourth wall, so to speak, to talk directly to you.   R: When I read something that has a preface, I kind of consider it like, “Okay, the book hasn’t started yet.”   K: Yes, exactly. The prologue is starting the story. It’s establishing things in the story that you want the reader to know before they really dig into the meat of the story.   R: But what does it need to do? K: It needs to intrigue the reader. What a prologue should be is, essentially, a self-contained short story. And a short story without an ending. That’s making the reader question things, making them wonder, “Hey, what’s going on here?” There should be an introductory beginning part. You should establish either places or characters. There should be some action, and by action I mean telling us or showing us something that has happened or is happening, and instead of concluding it like you would a normal short story, you’re kind of leaving it open after that. Or you’re leaving the end vague enough that the reader is left with questions.   R: So, just like a query letter gets you your first read from an agent—   K: That’s a really good way to put it, yeah!   R: Whatever you start your book with, whether you call it Prologue or Chapter 1, needs to draw the reader further into the story.   K: Exactly, yes.   R: So you would say a prologue that explains the history of a city without setting up some  kind of question, or some kind of tension, or some kind of mystery—   K: Is probably a prologue that you don’t need. You know, there’s different ways to work that information into the story so that that’s intriguing the reader as they’re trying to piece together, “What is the history of this city?” And you gotta ask yourself, at this point, is that history important?   R: Right. If you’re following genre tropes and you’re setting your fantasy world in a European-centric palace, kingdom kind of thing, you might not need to really work that hard on that aspect of your worldbuilding.   K: Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it’s really tempting and—we’ll get more into this later, when we talk about the Dos and Don’ts of these. But it’s really tempting to use a prologue as sort of an information dump. And here’s the thing, a prologue should give you a lot of information, but it shouldn’t just be stating all of that information straight up.   R: If you’ve spent a lot of time worldbuilding, that’s very good, but you don’t necessarily want to dump it into any part of your novel, least of all the opening pages where you’re convincing the reader that they wanna continue reading it. K: Yeah. Two of my favorite prologues are the prologue from A Song of Ice and Fire, Game of Thrones is the first book, and then the other is Jurassic Park. So, it’s funny because I completely misremembered this. For some reason, I remember reading Jurassic Park and the prologue being the same as it is in the movie, but thankfully Rekka checked that and refreshed my memory that it is not. I’m remembering this now.   [R chuckles]   The prologue in the movie and the book kind of do the same thing in two different ways. The movie, we establish that there’s this clearly tropical location. It’s pouring, it’s nighttime, and there’s a large crate being lowered by a crane. And this guy, he has a couple conversations with people, talking about how this isn’t safe, he doesn’t trust this. He’s very tough-looking. One of the workers that’s helping lower the crate gets too close to it, something grabs him by the arm and half-drags him into the cage. And even though they try to save him, you find out that this guy is killed by a dinosaur. And the guy says, “I’m telling you, this isn’t a good idea.”This is a really useful prologue. First, we’re establishing a character. We’re not gonna meet him again until later in the movie, but we’re establishing that he’s not happy with what’s going on here. He doesn’t think it’s safe, and he doesn’t think that this group of people has control over these dinosaurs.    Now, these are dinosaurs. Real, living, breathing dinosaurs. We’re not pulling any punches. Right at the beginning. Pretend you didn’t see the previews for this movie. Right at the beginning, we’re establishing that there are actual, living, breathing dinosaurs. But they do hide the raptor. We don’t really see all of the raptor in this.   R: You know it’s coming. You know it’s there. But you don’t see it.   K: And you know it’s definitely a dinosaur.   R: Yep.   K: But we’ve also established the setting, which is important later in this movie. It’s a tropical island, it gets very dark, and there are these torrential downpours. And that’s an important plot device later in the movie.   R: Mhm.   K: And finally, we establish that this guy isn’t happy because he doesn’t think that they actually have control over these things the way that everyone’s insisting they do. What happens immediately? We establish that he is correct. Because even though this raptor is completely contained, it still managed to kill a guy.   R: Yeah.   K: Now, in the book—the book, Jurassic Park is very different than the movie in quite a few ways—we pick up with this group of men who are rushing through the jungle trying to get to a doctor. He’s been attacked by something and the doctor’s asking, “What happened? What happened?” And they’re being really dodgy and finally confess. They say “raptor.” Again, we’re doing the same thing, where we’re kind of establishing that there are actual dinosaurs and that they’re not really super under control. Personally, I think the movie’s a little more effective, but that one has the visual component.   R: Yeah, it has the benefit of that, for sure.    K: Yeah. Both of those prologues are kind of doing the same thing. They’re establishing that, one, dinosaurs are real. Two, they’re establishing a setting, and three, they’re establishing what is going to become the plot of the movie or book, which is: we can’t control these things, at all.    R: Mhm.   K: Be they, stop it from killing people or, in the larger thematic element, we can’t control them from their nature.   So, then, the second prologue that I always point to is from Song of Ice and Fire, Game of Thrones, and I don’t even like to say it’s the prologue from Game of Thrones, I like to think of it as the prologue for the entire series, A Song of Ice and Fire.   R: It definitely is. As far as we know, that’s what the story’s gonna come back to.    K: And that’s exactly it. So the prologue for A Song of Ice and Fire is we pick up with three rangers of the Night’s Watch who are leaving Castle Black to go out… ranging. They’re talking about different things going on, we get to hear some of their normal day-to-day conversation, which is great because it kind of establishes a little bit of where they’re from and the world that they live in. And they come across a really gruesome scene. It’s like body parts of wildlings that have been killed and arranged in this specific pattern. They get all freaked out and one of them keeps saying, “It’s the—” in the book, they’re called the Others, they’re talking about the others. It’s a myth, and then one of them starts running away. This is the same scene, it’s almost perfectly replicated in the book and the TV show. One of the guys escapes and is so scared of what he sees that he abandons the Night’s Watch and runs south of the Wall. And then that’s where we pick up the story next.But this is fantastic because what George R. R. Martin is doing is setting up that there’s gonna be all this political intrigue, there’s gonna be all this stuff going on, but at the end of the day, there’s freakin’ ice zombies up there. And they don’t like humans.    What he’s done is establish, “I’m not gonna make you wonder if this is real. This is real. This is happening. Even though this seems to be going on in the background for all of the fighting, the wars, the political machinations, at the end of the day this is the real fight.”   R: Right.   K: And I can and have gone on at length about why Season 8 was terrible, based solely on the fact that the final conflict that they dealt with was not what they established at the beginning is the thing we all really need to be concerned about. So, hopefully in the books that’ll go differently.   But that said, that’s a good transition here, is what not to do with prologues. Because in the show, the prologue kind of faked us out. And we could go on forever about why that was, but George R. R. Martin in the book and then what the show was doing was establishing that this is the big conflict, this is the thing we’re all gonna end up fighting against for our lives. And, in the show, final boss turned out to be fucking Circe and her horny pirate.   R, laughing: Oh gosh. But the prologue is setting up the story. Which is to say, it is not separate from the story.   K: Yes.   R: So, if you feel like your prologue is something you can insert after the fact, you know, unless your editor’s saying, “We need to set this up somehow,” don’t just assume that you go back in and write your prologue like you would write your acknowledgements, when the whole thing is done.   K: This is… this is Chekov’s Ice Zombie.   R: Definitely. Chekov’s raptor.   K: If you’re gonna put it in the story, especially to establish its importance at the beginning of all of this, then it needs to be an important, significant factor in the story. We won’t go too far down that rabbit hole because that has a lot more to do with planning and building your story—   R: Right, but I mean that’s what we’re trying to say. If you’re working a prologue into your story, it has to be planned as part of your story. I think it was Writing Excuses, the podcast, where I first heard the concept of bracketing your story elements the way you would write code. And for people who don’t write code, this doesn’t really help except to say that close the tags in the same order that you opened them.    So if you open your prologue and you’re talking about raptors, your book’s climax should not be about zombies.   K: Wait, what if the raptors became zombies?   R: Well, then you need to hint at the possibility of that in that prologue, I think. But yeah, if your prologue doesn’t open a question for your story to examine, then what is it doing? And if it’s not doing that, you’re probably going to hit some resistance with readers or editors or agents, in having this prologue at all.   These are really great examples. Whether you like the books or not. But they take you right into the major conflict of the book, like Kaelyn was saying. Here are dinosaurs, this book is about dinosaurs.   K: Yeah. Real, actual, breathing dinosaurs.    R:Yeah, it’s not about these characters, in particular, but it is going to be about this threat. The opening of Game of Thrones, we assume that the conclusion is going to answer the introduction of this threat. The deserter gets killed in the first chapter, where we meet Bran and the whole Stark family, but it’s not about those characters, it’s about that threat. It’s worldbuilding, but it’s also plot.   K: Yeah, this is where we get kind of into the what not to do. A prologue is not a good place to do an information dump. If you have, you know, a city and you want your prologue to be the entire history of that city… that’s probably not a good prologue to have. Because, unless there’s something about the history of that city that is a mystery, that has been lost to history, that is a point of intrigue, there’s no reason to just have an information dump. That is not what you should be doing in your prologue.   R: So if your book is about that city, and there is a mystery to the city, I hope that’s gonna come through in the plot.    K: Yeah.   R: You probably don’t need to introduce the city so much as you do the characters who are going to experience this shift in perception of what their city really is.   K: Your prologue should leave a reader intrigued, and I will just come out and say it, and not bored. There’s certainly readers out there, and certain genres have a higher representation of them, that like that. They like information, they like history. I always go back to Pillars of the Earth, it’s a Ken Follett book and it’s about a medieval city at the time of the anarchy in England. And there’s a lot of information in there. Ken Follett’s a huge researcher. He goes through, in detail, how people who could not read or write, designed and built cathedrals.   R: Mhm.   K: You know, how they engineered these things. And it’s a very interesting book. I really liked it, but I know a lot of people that had trouble getting through it because it’s pages and pages of him explaining how certain things worked.   R: Yeah, and there are people who appreciate that Tolkein goes on about the flowers in a field, when you’re supposed to be worrying about a battle, but that’s not going to be everyone.   K: Hey, those flowers are gonna get stepped on, Rekka.   R: Well, and that’s like… why are we even bothering, you know? They’re not going to impact this plot at all. So you’re making an excellent point about the genre expectations.   K: I’ll go a little more detail into this because it’s an interesting example of how to disperse this information through your book. Because even though Ken Follett is, as I said, very well-known for excessively researching any story that he writes. This is, it’s about a village, small city maybe, called Kingsbridge and it becomes the site of a bunch of characters from different backgrounds and trades and walks of life that all end up there, and the cathedral is burned to the ground.   And back in—it may have even, I apologize, I read this a long time ago—it may have just been a church. But I think it was a cathedral and in medieval Europe, in order to be considered a city, you had to have a cathedral and you had to have a seat for a bishop.   R: Right.   K: It’s interesting because Ken Follett has to do a lot of worldbuilding, although what he’s actually doing is historical research. But a lot of people will, obviously, not know about what day-to-day life was like in a year 1000-ish English city.   R: Mhm.   K: So he’s got a lot of information to give people about the norms of day-to-day activity and, on top of this, he’s also got a lot of tropes and misconceptions to break about how people think things were versus how they actually were.    R: Yeah, which is a problem. In historical fantasy. Yeah.   K: So there’s worldbuilding in there that he has to establish all of this for this historical fiction book, that is taking place around real historical events. Pillars of the Earth does have a prologue, and what it’s doing is describing the Whiteship Disaster, which was a real thing that happened. The heir to the English throne was killed in a ship sinking off Whitestone and then all of this stuff happens with who inherits the throne. There’s this big war. That is the backdrop for this, but we’re watching the village.   So, what is he doing in the prologue? He’s establishing the historical background for events that actually happened, and then setting it against fictional characters. And them just trying to either live their daily lives or accomplish a certain goal, which ultimately is, get this freaking cathedral built in Kingsbridge.   R: So this case is historical fiction…   K: Fiction, yes.   R: But if this were an epic fantasy created world, you can still do this? Or would you say… you, as an editor, would you say—   K: Um, okay so, yeah—   R: I mean, I’m saying is there a double standard because oh, he did so much research! But authors do so much worldbuilding. Is it fair to say, “Well you have to establish what really happened because people don’t know, or people have a misconception,” but I think that’s true of fantasy, too. So why do some prologues that are info dumps of this size and expanse, not good versus the ones that are permissible.    K: Well, that’s interesting. Probably in fiction, everybody’s—especially in fantasy and science fiction-based fiction where everything is fictional and it’s not historically based—   R: Yeah.   [21:39]   K: So, in Pillars of the Earth, it’s not an information dump. You’re at a criminal trial and a hanging.   R: Okay, so, we’re just introduced that there actual characters in this. For anyone who hasn’t read it before, we don’t know that based on the earlier description. The earlier description sounded like, you know, a history textbook—   K: Yeah, okay so—   R: Here’s the important detail is that we are drawn in because we have characters and because there is something at risk.    K: Yes. The sinking of the Whiteshop has left England in chaos. Now, Ken Follett takes some liberties here with, you know, the actual history of all this, for the sake of intrigue. But we pick up with, the prologue is, this man in prison who is not quite sure why he’s in prison. And the reader is not sure why he’s in prison, but it’s very clear that he’s gonna be hanged.   And his pregnant lover shows up, curses the men who are gonna hang him, and their families, everything, and that all of his enemies will have nothing but regret and sorrow in his life. The people who are condemning this man are a priest, a knight, and a monk. And they’re accusing him of a theft that he clearly did not commit.   R: Okay.   K: And then we pick up about ten or so years later.   R: Okay, so chapter one begins ten years after the curse laid down by this man’s lover.   K: Yes, exactly. But what we’re establishing is a conspiracy.   R: Okay.   K: So that’s what a good prologue does. And that’s a very common device with prologues, is a time jump.   R: Right, and that’s why there is a line drawn between: this prologue is unnecessary and you didn’t start chapter one in the right place. You know? Those are two different arguments.   K: Yeah. So in the case of—it’s interesting because in the case of the two prologues that I listed that I really like, Song of Ice and Fire and Jurassic Park, there really isn’t much of a time jump. We pick up pretty much immediately after, in A Song of Ice and Fire and Jurassic, yeah.   R: A couple weeks or something, at the worst.   K: And Jurassic Park is maybe a few months, if that.   R: Mhm.   K: In Pillars of the Earth, it’s I think over a decade.   R: Right.   K: So, what we’ve done is established, hey, there was a conspiracy. Something happened here. Now obviously, again, this is Chekov’s pregnant woman. Obviously, this kid is going to be important somehow. Obviously, the woman is going to be important somehow.   R: Mhm.   K: You’re going to be spending this whole time speculating, “Was it her? Was it her? Is this her kid? Who was this monk, this knight, this priest?” And it’s so good at establishing this conspiracy that makes you wanna read because then you’re getting into the story and going, “How on Earth is all of this connected to this?”   R: But that brings up a good point. If you have a prologue and then a time jump, are you making a dissatisfying experience for the reader because you started them on one story and then you switched them to a new one?   K: Not if there’s a payoff.   R: Right, so that’s something to consider in your prologue construction. And, as we’ve said, Chekov’s this, Chekov’s that—you are setting up something for your main story. You’re not telling a short story that makes an interesting, “Oh, also in this world, this happened.” And establishes your worldbuilding, but doesn’t establish, also, your plot.   K: Exactly. So, the Dos and Don’ts of prologues. And I know we’ve kind of wound about here a little bit, but this is not a place to dump information. As I think we’ve established.   R: Even though that might be what you’re trying to do, is actually communicate a lot of setting right away, you aren’t dumping it.   K: You can! Yeah, there are ways to do it. I always say, my—and this is not, this isn’t like a Golden, Always Do This Rule but one of the good metrics I have with a prologue is: Do you need to establish things before the story starts that you want the readers to know, that maybe the characters that we’re going to meet right off the bat don’t know? All three of the prologues that I’ve talked about here do that.   Jurassic Park establishes there are real dinosaurs and they’re hurting people and they can’t be controlled, which the characters going into Jurassic Park certainly don’t know that the dinosaurs are real until they get there.   R: And they certainly don’t know that they’re just gonna get out. Soon as it rains.   K: Yeah. Song of Ice and Fire, the characters don’t know—probably don’t want to know—that the Others are real and that they’re like actual, supernatural forces running around north of the Wall. And in Pillars of the Earth, we’re establishing that this guy was killed to cover something up. We don’t know what yet, but there was a conspiracy against him to cover something up and that is then going to become part of the story, as well.   R: When do you call it Chapter One and when do you call it a prologue?   K: When the story starts, Rekka. [laughs]   R: No, but I mean, like—Why is… why is the—   K: No, I’m kidding. I’m kidding. R: —the injured Costa Rican person from Jurassic Park, why is that scene not chapter one? K: Well, so here’s something interesting that we see in all of these prologues. None of the people in these are really the main, main characters of the story.   R: Unless they appear in utero.   K: Unless they appear in utero, yes. You know, in the case of Jurassic Park, I can’t remember the guy who was basically the park ranger. He’s a significant character, but we don’t meet him again until later on. In A Song of Ice and Fire, you know, we meet the runaway ranger again because he needs to be executed for fleeing the Night’s Watch.   R: Right.   K: And he is able to convey some information to the other characters and then he’s done his job so we execute him.   R, amused: As we do.    K: Kill your darlings, Rekka.   R: And anyone else.   K: And anyone else who is not necessary to your story.   R: Mhm.   K: And in Pillars of the Earth, um, the pregnant woman of course does show up again, but again, we don’t meet her until much later in the story. So I think, when your story starts is when it’s the characters who are going to be living through and acting out most of the story.   R: Okay.   K: This is why I say, you know, with prologues, a good metric for them is, establishing things that you want the reader to know, but the characters of the book don’t know. So if it’s the main characters, then obviously they’re gonna know it.   R: Right.   K: The people you’re following are the ones typically trying to figure something out, find something, do something, find someone, et cetera. So if they are in the prologue, then they might know this. Maybe they’re in the prologue as a baby and then there’s a time jump, you know.   R: Mhm.   K: I think… the beginning of Harry Potter, that was a prologue.   R: Chapter One, The Boy Who Lived.   K: Oh, okay. So it’s not a prologue. It’s chapter one. So here’s a good example of maybe you don’t need a prologue.   R: But from what we’ve just discussed, it actually might qualify as a prologue.   K: I would say that’s a prologue. Yes, you’re in this position of, do you just take your prologue and make it chapter one because you don’t want people yelling at you about a prologue?   R: But that is valid! Like, there are people who are so incensed by the concept of a prologue in a book that all they care about is the word prologue at the heading of the text. And if you change it to chapter one, they don’t even bat an eyelash about it. Here’s one of the things that I was gonna ask you, real quick, because I know we have to wrap up, but why might your prologue not be working?   One, the thing you can’t control, is that it just pisses off the reader. The word prologue.   K: Yeah, that is absolutely something you can’t control. If you have an editor, an agent, a reader, that just doesn’t like prologues for whatever reason—   R: A prologue hurt them one time.   K: Yeah, and this is where there are certain things you’re just never gonna change people’s mind on. I think that’s kind of narrow-minded because as I’ve talked about at length here, there are some really outstanding prologues that exist out in the world.   R: Some people just really like rules and they don’t really consider the subtleties of them.   K: Exactly, yeah. There are no absolutes in writing, to be sure. That said, if somebody comes to you and says, “Hey, I don’t like prologues. You don’t need this.” Well, there’s two things that could be going on here. Either you gotta make an argument for why this is a genuine prologue and something that you wanna have and is necessary to your story, or you’ve gotta take a step back and go, “Does this person not like prologues or is this just not working?”   R: Yeah. It might be behoove you to consider how much weight your prologue is pulling before you make the decision to keep it. And maybe, as you’re editing, really lean into what it can do for your story. As opposed to just setting the scene, the way it does in Shakespeare.   K: So how do you know is your prologue necessary? Well, look, I’m not saying this to be hurtful to authors, at all, but like… authors frequently end up in a position in these books where they can’t see the trees through the forest. You lose a little bit of the self-awareness about your book because you’re so ingrained in it.   R: Mhm.   K: You spent so much time with the book and with these characters and with the way you envisioned this. Do you need a prologue or are you insisting you need one and everyone’s telling you no? Well—   R: I mean, did you write a prologue because lots of books you loved had prologues and you think you just call the first chapter “Prologue” or that you always start with something, but you don’t know what it is that makes it functional?   K: Yeah, so this may be, honestly, this may be where your editor or your beta readers come in and say, “You don’t need this.” And have a discussion about it!   R: And if someone says that—yeah.   K: Yeah, absolutely have a discussion about it. Say, “Oh, well, I think because this, and I think it’s establishing this. I think this is intriguing,” and if they’re saying, “Well, you think that it’s doing that, but it’s not actually doing that.” Then—   R: Also, I felt this way as I started to read Chapter One as a result of having come out of the prologue.   K: Yeah.   R: That transition has to be not as jarring as possible. You really don’t want the person to have to start the book over at that point.   K: Yes. And I, you know, I’ve had discussions with authors about this. There have been books I’ve read where I’ve actually thought this could’ve used a prologue. You could’ve put something in here to lay the groundwork a little bit because I am a third of the way through this and I am very confused.   This is, at this point, if you’ve got multiple people telling you, “Hey, you don’t really need this prologue,” it’s probably time to consider whether or not you really need this prologue.   R: And if you really feel that you want one because there’s something you’re trying to accomplish, that’s a good hint that you’re not accomplishing it.    K: Yes, exactly. So, if you really want the prologue, then you gotta come up with a way to make the prologue work and, if you can’t, then you probably don’t need one.   R: Consider your genre, too. You may have a totally functional prologue, but your genre doesn’t want it. You know?   K: Yes, yes.   R: If you’re a romance reader, you don’t wanna hear about some other story from ten years prior. You wanna get right into the characters and watch their character arcs progress. If you are into really fast-paced military science fiction, you probably don’t wanna prologue except for, like, maybe a paragraph just setting up the powers at play. Maybe.   K: There really is this backlash against them because I think for a number of years, every story was coming up with a prologue and it was like, “Do you really need this?” And it’s funny because I remember being in elementary school and reading classes and talking about this and saying, “You start with your prologue.”   R: Mhm.   K: I thought for a while, like, okay you just have a prologue. Cool.   R: I mean, if you have a prologue, you should start with it. But you don’t necessarily have to have one.   K: I mean, don’t stick it in the middle of the book for no reason. [laughs] Do we really have anything else to say about prologues here? Except, you know, they’re only necessary until they’re not?   R: Um, or they’re not necessary until they are?   K: Yeah, yeah.    R: If you look around your genre and you see a lot of prologues, then that might be a permission slip to consider one. But you also want to see what those prologues are doing. I mean, if you are writing to release books, you definitely need to be reading in your genre to understand what else is out there.    And not just old stuff. Like, read books in the last five and ten years. Make sure that you’re getting the latest view of the genre landscape and not just the quote unquote “classics” that are getting to the point where they’re a hundred years old or more, at this point.   K: And for those of you going, “Well my book is my book and that’s just what it is.” Cool. Have fun not selling as much of it as you could.   R, laughing: Well, I mean, your book may be your book and it might be what it is. And you might have done a successful prologue, but consider whether other books in that genre have them. If you never see another prologue and you’re setting up a prologue that belongs in a different genre, then maybe rewrite the whole universe you’ve created to create something in a different genre. If you really want that prologue. If that prologue is more important to you than meeting the genre expectations, switch genres.    But we didn’t touch on some very classic, prologue-y kind of things and I just thought it’d be fun to list a couple before we go. Is that you got like mystery, detective murder stories. Like the easy parallel is like a Law & Order episode. There’s always somebody discovering the body.   K: Yup.   R: And then you cut to the detectives circling the body. Then the pithy one-liner, then the credits. So—   K: I mean, it’s not an episode of Law & Order without the pithy one-liner.   R: Yeah. But that genre is full of books which are procedural! They follow a very specific pattern, they are not about character development, they are not about being drawn into worldbuilding. They are about: here’s a question, by the end of the book we answer it. If your prologue is something like that, it might belong in that story. And then epic fantasy. We’ve mentioned two epic fantasies, pretty much.   K: Yeah.   R: Is that you are setting up a whole world and, in theory, your reader has arrived because they are just pumped for 800 pages of your story, with the expectation they’re gonna be there awhile and they want to get their footing. But they still need to be compelled through the book, you know? So be kind to them and build it into your story. Don’t make it an accessory. And don’t defend it to the death, if you’re being told by multiple people that it’s not working.   K: Yeah. And look, if the prologue—again, I’ll just go back to if the prologue’s not working and you can’t make it work, then you probably don’t need a prologue. Not every book needs one. Most don’t.   R: The example I’d give is City of Lies by Sam Hawke, it is about a city. It is about a political system. It is about all these different parties and peoples clashing and yet it goes straight into the main character. There’s no pause. You learn about the city through the characters and that is, I think, can be more effective than a prologue in a case where it is about the connection of those characters to their city.   K: Yeah, so.   R: So, your prologue may be necessary, it may not be. Definitely get some opinions and definitely give it thought and see what it can do to actually move your story along before you just commit to the concept of a prologue. Or before you reject it outright!   K: Yeah, exactly. Yep. I’m trying to think of any instances I’ve ever heard where somebody was told, “Hey, you need a prologue.”   R: I mean, I do know several other writers who were told by their editors, after they sold the book, “Hey, we’d like to put a prologue in here.” And then go to town! You know. And probably that editor, since they’re asking for it, is going to tell you what they want it to accomplish. Which is different than just you guessing at what you need.   K: Huh,yeah. Anyway! So that’s prologues. Do you need one? We’re not sure. Figure it out.   [Both laugh]   R: We’re so helpful. That’ll be ten bucks, folks.   K: Do you need one? Maybe! What’s your book like? So anyway, thanks for listening. As always, hope this was helpful—   R: In some way!   K: —even though more and more—yeah we typically end these episodes with: Question? I don’t know, maybe! Figure it out.   R: Well, you can find us on Twitter @wmbcast or Instagram, also @wmbcast. If this was helpful and you do want to throw us that ten bucks or whatever, you can also find us on Patreon.com/wmbcast. And send us your questions or leave a question on social media somewhere and we will answer it in a future episode. If you need more clarification like, “Okay, you said this, but what if—” we might answer it on social media in replies, or we might it’s a whole topic for the future.   But either way—   K: Oh, we have done whole episodes of just questions people sent us online.   R: So send us your questions, please! We love to hear from you and we will be back in two weeks, either with your question or something else we thought of! Thanks everyone.   K: Thanks everyone.   [outro music plays]   

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and tell us your favorite novel covers! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 44: Theme and Character Arcs transcribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)   [0:00] R: Welcome back to We Make Books, a podcast about publishing—and writing. And sometimes going backward and revising. Whoops. I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore.   K: And I’m acquisitions editor, I, Kaelyn Considine, at Parvus Press.   R: How dare you.   [Both laugh]   K: It’s the heat. It’s the heat and then quarantine.   R: The heat is definitely getting to us. We have to turn off the AC to record these, folks, so pity us.   K: Hi, everyone! No, today we actually have, I think, an interesting episode. We are going based off a Twitter question we got from one of our listeners, Ashley Graham, about themes and character arcs and how to manage them and make them good in your story.   R: And by good, we mean strong or tight or—   K: Pervasive, efficient—   R: Pervasive. [giggles]   K: What are some other words we use to describe them here? Lots of very positive adjectives, to be sure.   R: Mhm, yeah.   K: You want your character arcs tight and your themes pervasive.   R: Yup.  K: It’s kind of what we’re left with here. Anyway, we had a lot of fun talking about this because it’s something that I really enjoy working with authors on.   R: Yeah, when Kaelyn gets a novel manuscripts, this is what she dives in and gets to.   K: It is, yeah. This is at the very developmental level and I think anybody who’s a writer that’s listening to this and has submitted and gotten rejections has probably, at some point, gotten a note to “work on their themes or character arcs.”   R: Mhm.   K: Which is just so helpful and specific.   R: That’s why they call them form rejections.   K: Yes. So, we spent a lot of time in this talking about, first of all, what are these themes and character arcs? And how do you work on them? A lot of fun examples in movies and shows and, you know, like I said this is one of my favorite things about editing, is working on these parts of the book.   R: See, Kaelyn thought that she could ask me to restrain her, but the fact is I also love these, so we did go on a little bit. But I think we’ve had longer episodes. We’re fine.   K: Definitely, yeah. We were like kids in a candy shop for this, to be sure.   R: That’s true.   K: Anyway, so take a listen. We hope this is helpful, if this is something you’ve been struggling with in your writing process, and we’ll see you on the other side of the music.   [intro music plays]   K: I don’t know what I could’ve hit. That’s upsetting. Anyway! So, if my elbow hit something is that a character arc or is that a theme?   R: I think that’s a theme. Or it might be a story element…   K: It could be a plotline. Is the elbow a character?   R: Is the elbow haunted?   K: I mean, I assume so. It’s mine, yes. Anyway, today we’re talking about—one of our listeners, Ashley Graham, sent us a question about, I don’t know. Do we wanna read the question?   R: I’m gonna summarize it. Basically, Ashley was working on a short fiction piece and was suggested to, by an editor, that the theme and character arc could use some clarification. So, what the heck does that mean? That’s feedback that people will see.   K: That’s very common feedback, actually. Probably, I think, a lot of people listening to this who have submitted something either to an agent or an editor, probably got feedback that may have specifically said character arc and theme.   R: Yeah. And I think this one might have been for a publication, so short fiction market. And you’re gonna get that kind of stuff a lot because their second-tier response is going to be, “Your story almost made it, you could’ve tightened this up,” you know?   K: Yeah, and also, especially with short fiction, you’re gonna see that more because you have to do a lot in a short amount of time.   R: Yeah.   K: Now that is not, by any stretch of the imagination, to indicate that you won’t see this with long-form fiction because, believe me, you will. I’ve said it multiple times myself—   R: It might be easier to go astray with a long novel.   K: It’s very true. So, why is it these two things, a lot, that you hear? Because they’re a little, especially in the case of themes, they’re a little nebulous and not as easy to pin down. A plot is, I think, a lot of times easier because it’s the story. When you sit down to write an outline, what you’re outlining is usually the plot.    R: It’s concrete, it’s easy to point at and go, “That is part of the plot. That is a thing that happens and it happens in an order and if that order goes awry then it’s not a plot anymore.”   K: That’s exactly what I was gonna say, was that when you’re outlining something and it’s the plot, it’s an order of actions happening in sequence, or maybe out of sequence, depending on how you’re writing, but in how they’re going to be presented in the final book or short story, or what have you.   So, before we get started, let’s kinda define some things here. So a plot, obviously, we know what a plot is. That is not a character arc, it is not a theme. A plot is the elements of a story that take place and happen to the characters. That is a very broad definition, obviously, but plots are sequences on actions and things that happen.   R: Yeah, I’ve even heard it defined as a sequence of actions, reactions, and complicating factors.   K: Yes, that’s a really good way to describe it. Themes and character arcs, and it’s funny because character arcs and plots get confused together and then themes and morals get confused together. A theme is not a moral, a moral is, we’re talking strictly in terms of terms in literature. A moral is a lesson that is learned. A moral is the kid sticks his hand in the cookie jar when he’s not supposed to, it gets stuck, he breaks the cookie jar and has cuts on his hand and his mom finds out he was doing all of this anyway.    So what has he learned? He has learned to listen to his mother because maybe it’s not just that she doesn’t want him to eat cookies when he shouldn’t, maybe it’s that he could get hurt. That is a moral. That is actions and the plot leading up to a character changing themselves because they learned something. That is not a theme.So, now that we have—   R: It’s a character arc though.   K: It certainly could be.   R: Yeah.   K: And so that’s why I’m saying, plots and character arcs and themes and morals can get confused. So now that we’ve established what we’re not talking about, let’s talk about what we are talking about.   And let’s start with themes because that one is a little more nebulous, I think. A theme in a story is, at its basis level, an underlying message. It’s a big idea.   R: Mhm.   K: It is conceptual. It’s things that do not physically, tangibly exist in the world. If you are saying, “Yes, the theme is this,” and a lot of times, if it’s something you can actually touch, that’s probably not actually a theme.   R: So my theme is not coffee?   K: Your theme might be coffee, Rekka.   R: I was gonna say! You’re speaking in universals here, but I just don’t feel like I can relate to what you’re saying.   K: Your—your theme might be coffee. [laughs] Now, somebody might—you might come in and say, “What about the ocean? What if the theme of this story is the ocean?” Well, my answer to that is that the theme of the story is probably not the ocean.   The theme of the story might be travel or man versus nature or the horror of the unknown, and the ocean just happens to embody that.   R: Yup.   K: Again, these are Big Ideas. These are things that you cannot touch, feel, or hold. So things like love, death, good versus evil, a lot of coming of age stories. Stories of rebellion and overthrowing corrupt systems of government. Survival. These are themes. And those are big themes. You can have smaller ones like… family. Finding things that are lost.   R: Appreciating what you had all along, kind of thing,   K: Exactly, yes. Realizing that home was really where you wanted to be this whole time.   R: Yeah. Adventure was the friends you made along the way.      K: Exactly, yes. The other thing that I always tell people when trying to identify themes in their story and bring them forward a little more, is what do you want the reader to walk away thinking, feeling, or knowing? If the theme of your story is: the adventure was the friends you made along the way, then you want the reader to go, “You know what? I really need to go spend some more time with my friends and do something fun with them.”   R: Mhm.   [09:55]   K: Or “ I need to go out and make some new friends,” or “I’m gonna go have an adventure and see if I make any new friends.”   R: Yeah.   K: Your—if, you know, the theme is something like death and loss, maybe you want the reader to leave feeling really sad and depressed and hopeless, staring into the void of existence.   R: You monster.   K: Hey, I mean we’ve all read a book like that.   R, laughing: Yes. In high school. They were required reading.    K: Ohh, oh yeah.   R: So, another way to phrase this or to think about it is to—say, your example of the ocean and say, “Okay, but that’s still a noun.” If you were to remove the noun, what’s left? What’s underneath that? If the setting and the characters are the carpet and you pull up the carpet, what’s underneath it? What is the most fundamental, base human relatable thing that you’re communicating with this story?   K: And that’s what makes themes so difficult to manage and to bring forward in stories, is that they are intangible. You can’t—There’s a frequently said thing that editors use which is, “Show me, don’t tell me.” R: Right.   K: And that is—   R: We should have an episode on that.   K, laughs: Yeah. But that is themes. You can’t put a sentence in there saying, “And the theme is: love.” No, you need—it’s something that has to be woven through your story for the reader to pick up on their own. You shouldn’t have to tell the reader what the theme of this story is.    So, now, before we go too far down that line, let’s kinda talk about character arcs and what is a character arc? They’re definitely a little more tangible, if you will, than themes. You can sit down—and I encourage people to sit down and write out a character arc. Rekka, you’ve done this a few times.   R: A few...yes. Just a couple.    K: Just a few. But a character arc is partially, mostly, a lot of times, an inner journey. It’s a transforma—   R: It’s a transformation. Ah, there we go.   K: It’s a transformation of the character over the course of the story. We’re seeing them start out a certain way, the plot affects them, and they have to change and adapt accordingly. And some definitions of this will say it must be a permanent change. I don’t buy into that because I don’t think that everything needs to be a fundamental personality shift.   R: Well, sometimes you just really wanna write a really long series and that character’s gonna have to learn that lesson more than once.   K: Yeah… Hey, nobody said these characters have to be smart!   R: Yeah, they don’t have to grow ever upward.   K: No, character arc is something. Theme has been what it is for a long time. Character arc is something that, I think, the standards and definitions of it have shifted a little bit over time. In fiction, especially, if you go back to when literature was first being really defined and written about and studied, you’ll find a lot of stuff that says, “Well, a character arc must have these elements: the character must start here; they must encounter or create a problem for themselves; they must come up with a way to overcome that problem, or get the thing that they need; they must suffer a setback; they must recover from the setback; they must resolve the storyline.”   R: And usually in a Three Act, there’s a second setback that’s extra bad.   K: Yeah, yes. I don’t agree with this. I think that there’s no such thing as a formulaic character arc.   R: Right. And, for one, that’s a very Western oriented, Western-centric character arc. You’re going to travel outside Western stories, you’re going to see different character arcs.   K: I would make the argument that character arcs that are a very Western thing that can be applied to a lot of stories because the nature of stories has character arcs, but—   R: Well, I would argue that the nature of Western civilization is colonialism and that sure is going in and applying new rules to other people’s stuff, so. [laughs]   K: Absolutely.    R: So burn down character arcs, got it.   K: Yeah. No, no. And, look, what makes stories interesting is seeing the people in them grow and change. The degree to which that happens varies wildly across all genres and all cultures and how—I’ve had literature professors that said, “If your character is not X amount different by the end of the story, then that’s not a successful character arc,” and I think that’s bullshit.   Because character arcs, which are obviously very tied to character development, do not necessarily need to be a fundamental shift in personality.   R: So, why don’t we start talking a little bit examples. We named one off the air, before we started recording, which was basically any character that Harrison Ford plays.   K, laughing: Yeah!   R: Do any of those characters fundamentally change across the time spent on screen?   K: Well, let’s scale it down a bit to characters Harrison Ford plays that appear in multiple movies. Franchise Harrison Ford characters.    R: Okay, so we’re talking Indiana Jones, Han Solo, and then Jack Ryan.    K: Okay, well I don’t know anything about Jack Ryan, so I’m not gonna be able to help there.   [15:57]      R: Basically, he’s—once again, we’re talking about uber-competent male action heroes, basically.   K: I am going to focus primarily on Indiana Jones and Han Solo because that’s an interesting dichotomy. One of them has a character arc, the other absolutely does not. Spoiler alert: Indiana Jones does not really have much of a character arc.   R: Um, as we said, his character arc is… he needs a thing, he has a competitor for the thing, the competitor gives him a setback, he overcomes, approaches again, has a bigger setback, and then he gets the thing. It’s not a personal growth, it is his striding toward a goal.   K: Yes, but that is his plot.   R: That is also the movie plot, but I’m just saying—is it a flattening of the character arc with the plot, when the character doesn’t change very much?   K: It is because Indiana Jones does not change over the course of the story. He ends and begins every movie with, It Belongs in A Museum.    [both laugh]   R: Fortune over ___, kid.   K: Yeah, that’s Indiana Jones. It’s It Belongs in A Museum or I Don’t Want the Nazis to Have This. That is everything motivating Indiana Jones throughout all of his movies. Han Solo, on the other hand, does have a character arc. Han Solo starts out as a smuggler and a guy who, according to his prequel, was running drugs.    R: Mhm.   K: And he eventually becomes somebody who, instead of just living this sort of private-smuggler lifestyle—   R: Out for himself.   K: Yeah! Out for himself. Has friends and family that he grows to care about. And maybe he’s not as gung-ho Freedom Fighter as they are, but he certainly takes their values and their goals into account and wants to help them and be successful in that. Then he walks into a lightsaber—but we’ll, you know… that’s… [laughs] But! It is a different, it’s another downswing on the character arc is that we see that Han Solo, at the end of the day, is still Han Solo.   R: Mhm.   K: Because what happens? He goes back to smuggling pirate loner lifestyle with Chewbacca. We pick up with him again and, yeah, he’s different but of course he is, he’s older. So there, again, successful character arc! But what he’s showing us is that, at the end of the day, this is what he does and this is what he knows and this is what he’s good at.   R: Well, but, the question is, is he good at it or is he Chewbacca’s sidekick.   K, laughing: How good he is is a different query.   R: Okay, so—   K: Actually, real quick sidebar, if you think about it, everything we’ve seen of Han Solo, he’s not actually a very good smuggler.   R: No, he’s terrible! So the question is, does your character start from a default? And what we’re saying here is Han Solo, his default is smuggler, loner, trying to make the next paycheck and keep himself out of trouble.   K: Scruffy-faced nerf-herder.   R: Whenever he is thrown into the mix with people who are potential friends, they mess up his default and pull him away from that. But send an obstacle into his path—like a son—and he reverts back to his default when he doesn’t know how to cope.   K: Yeah, exactly. So, Han Solo is actually, and I think, primarily accidentally, a very successful and good example of a character arc.   R: Mhm.   K: Indiana Jones: It Belongs in A Museum or Stop The Nazis.   R: I think he’s intentionally left out of the character arc.   K: Yeah, I mean—but this is the thing, that’s not what those stories are about.   R: Right. That’s to the point of this question is, when you are told to tighten up a character arc or a theme, you do need to know what kind of story you’re telling before you decide how deep into character arcs and themes you need to dive. I mean, you might get this feedback from one person, and they might be off the mark for what you were trying to do with your story.   K: Mhm.   R: Which can also tell you, maybe you need to extract a little of that character arc and not make it feel like it’s so much about developing a character, if you are just telling a whip-cracking, gun-toting archaeologist tale. Don’t do that. Archaeologists don’t appreciate it.   K, laughing: Yeah, that’s uh—   R: Another episode.   K: In case anyone was confused at home, that’s not what archaeology’s actually like, sadly. Anyway, now that we’ve talked about what character arcs and themes are, why are these two things that people are frequently told to tighten up? And frequently told to tighten them together?   We’ve already said that character arcs are closer to plots, themes are closer to morals, but they’re not the same thing. So how do character arcs and themes overlap? Themes motivate and drive characters. This feeds both the plot and the character arc. The plot, obviously, because based on the theme, and therefore the character’s motivation, the character will be making that will affect both the plot and their character arc.   R: Mhm.   K: That’s where things start to get a little tricky. Those two are very closely intertwined. Because obviously the plot, in a lot of cases, is dependent upon what the character is doing. Their choices and decisions dictate what happens next in the story.   So then, drill down for that, what is influencing their decision-making, their motivation? And where is the motivation coming from? And that’s where you start to get to the themes of the story. So, if one of the themes of your story is survival and, let’s think of—   R: Alien.   K: Okay, that’s a more fun example. I was gonna say The Hatchet, remember that book we all had to read in middle school?   R: Yeah, we’re not doing that, we’re doing Alien.   K: Okay, we’re doing Alien.   R: Mostly because there was a point you made earlier about character and we used Harrison Ford’s various characters as the example, but I love the example of, specifically in terms of survival, and specifically in terms of the character of Ripley, Ripley doesn’t really change throughout the movie. What she does is survive because she has the skillset, which is the ability to think things through logically in the first place, to say, “Okay, we need to not be doing this.”   Basically the theme of Alien, correct me if I’m wrong, is We Should Have Listened to Ripley?   K: I mean, yeah. Probably. But beyond just the theme of—Granted, this goes into further expansions in the Alien franchise, but—   R: Well, let’s stick with Alien for one. The other movies in the franchise are different genres, basically. So sticking with the space truckers’ monster-horror survival.   K: Alien is a horror movie in space. That’s all it is. It was groundbreaking, genre-defining, but it is a horror movie in space. So, the themes of the movie, as Rekka said: survival. There’s also, I would say, a theme of frustration.    R: Mhm. The capitalist bureaucracy.   K: Well, and that’s what I was getting into.   R: Okay.   K: So then we’re introducing a conflict element there that is beyond simply: there’s a thing laying eggs in people’s chests.   R: That thing laying eggs in people’s chest wouldn’t be there if it weren’t for the company.   K: Yes, exactly. So then, if you want to take all of that and say, “Okay, so how does that affect Ripley’s character arc?” Ripley is changed at the end of the story, not necessarily physically or personality-wise, but emotionally she is very affected. And she is going to then—have you ever heard about how Alien was supposed to end? One of the alternative endings they shot?   The alien gets Ripley, essentially, and then when whoever is calling in over the ship, the alien gets the intercom and answers back in her voice, requesting for orbits to come back to Earth.   R: Gotcha.   K: So, it was a very bleak ending, obviously.   R: But a lot of monster movies do this. They leave off with you not feeling safe.   K: Yes, and so that is another theme. What do you wanna leave your readers with? And, in this case, the movie pivoted a little bit and said, “Well, we wanna give the audience a sense of closure,” and that all of this, this theme of survival, she did survive. So rather than going with the theme of feeling unsafe, which was another theme running through that entire movie, paranoia, uncertainty—   R: Claustrophobia.   K: Claustrophobia. Anybody could become your enemy at any moment.   R: Body horror. Yup.    K: Yeah. So instead of leaving off with that theme, they decided to be a little kinder and pivot a little bit to say, “Hey, determination, intelligence, stick-to-itiveness, and survival will make you victorious.” Which is another set of themes. So then, back to, how does this tie into the character arc is: Ripley is a changed person at the end of this.   Boy, has she seen some shit. And now she knows that this corporation is up to no good. She is no longer just in it for the money. They say this is a long, awful journey, but it’s very good money. It’s totally worth it.   R: Mhm.   K: Maybe it’s not worth it anymore. There’s absolutely some anti-capitalist undertones in there.   R: Mhm.   K: Ripley comes out of this, even though personality-wise she hasn’t changed—the movie takes place over a relatively short period of time. But Ripley’s definitely got some different thoughts and motivations now, at the end of this. So, even though she hasn’t undergone a radical, inner transformation, she certainly thinks different things now than she did before.   R: Yeah, for sure.   K: So, yeah. That’s a great example of some really cool themes and how they affect—and it’s interesting because you could take it a step further and say how they affect the character arc, rather than the plot.   R: Right.    K: Because in this case, a lot of Ripley’s decisions are reactionary. Things are happening and she’s trying to adapt and recalibrate very, I’m only thinking of two instances in the whole—really, one and a half off the top of my head, in which she goes on the offensive, so to speak.   R: Right. Well that’s also sort of a plot thing is that your character is reacting to things up until a certain point, and then it’s at the time when they decide to say, “No, I will take care of this myself,” that’s when you’re entering that last act.   K: Yes! But, then, by the time we get to the, “I’ll take care of this myself,” for the plot and the character arc, we all go back to the themes of Ripley kind of coming to a new understanding of how stuff is actually happening around her, rather than letting it happen to her.   R: Yeah.   K: Yeah. Anyway, I think that’s a good example.   R: Cool. So, now that we’ve talked about what they are, given you some examples, figured out how to un-intertwine the character arc and theme. How do you tighten them up? And since the example given was a short story for publication, let’s assume we’re doing this in under 7,000 words. How do you tighten up character arc and theme and you’ve also, presumably, got a plot in there, in a very efficient way?   K: All of these kind of work together. I think that anything you’re going to do to a short story, you can apply to longer form fiction and vice versa. So me, personally, with—and Rekka has been on the receiving end of this a couple times—when working with authors, let’s start with themes. I mentioned before, one of the first things I ask the author is: What do you want the audience to know, think, or feel that they didn’t at the beginning of the book?   And when I say know, I don’t mean you’re—   R: Teaching them.   K: Yeah, you’re not putting a graph-chart in there and saying, “And then the price of gold went up to—” I’m not talking about facts, I’m talking about what you want them to know about these nebulous concepts in the way you want them to know it? So, identifying those things really will help you figure out where your themes are.    The other thing I always say, and this is where it starts to tie into the character arc, is look at the character arcs and the plot and the motivation. What are the characters doing and why are they doing it? What is driving them to do this? Because that’s where you’re gonna find a lot of your themes. And then, if theme is very important to you, if you really want to hammer a message home, making sure that your characters act and are motivated by that theme, consistently—and this isn’t to say it can’t evolve, it absolutely can. But making sure that they are correctly motivated, based on what the theme is, is a really good way to help tighten that up.   Then, that helps to feed into their character arc. Because you have a character, then, acting, reacting, and making decisions based on what is important to them and how the story is building.   [30:09]   R: And I think, at this point, if you’re feeling like, “I can’t make this character make this decision,” then that tells you that you are not succeeding at either theme or character arc.   K: Yes… and—   R: Or not in a way that supports what you set out to do with the plot.   K: Yes, and listen. I want to be clear about something that every story does not need to be a Magnum Opus of subtle themes and ideas woven through this— it’s going to be studied in college 101 classes for decades to come. But you do need a theme for your story. You need there to be something that is important in all of this. Otherwise it is a bland series of actions happening one after the other.   R: And if you don’t feel that it is a bland series, or your beta readers don’t feel that it is a bland series of actions, one after another, that means there’s a theme in there. So if you’re having trouble identifying it, that doesn’t mean immediately that you don’t have one.   I will use an example of Mike Underwood, when I was working on Annihilation Aria with him. So we had a few calls, I read the manuscript multiple times, and Mike had actually said the themes of the story are very important to him. So I went through the manuscript, and I do this with most books that I edit, and I kind of write out a plot outline based on what I’m reading, what I see happening in the book. Part of this is, one, that it’s just easier for me to keep track of things, but then also because if I show it to the author and say, “Okay, this is how I’m reading this,” and they’re going, “No, no! That’s not it at all,” then it’s like, okay, now we need to have a conversation.   But one of the things that I like to do through that is mark off, in my notes of this outline, where I’m identifying and seeing certain themes. And then we have a conversation about that. And if we’re seeing a real imbalance of them, or I’m only seeing them come through in certain parts of the story, or if I’m having a real hard time nailing them down and saying, “I feel like I’ve got ten themes in this story. Which one’s the most important to you?”    And I think that’s a really good exercise is, you know, most authors out there, I’m guessing if you’re pretty far into your Work-In-Progress at this point, you probably already have an outline. So go through it and try to pick out sections where you think certain themes are coming through. And I actually color-code them and then I can look through and see, “Oh, there’s a lot of red and not so much blue.”   R: Mhm. If you’re a pantser and you write without an outline, this is something you do, probably in your revision process. Write down a summary of each scene and that becomes an outline. Just because you’re doing it after the fact doesn’t make it less of an outline. And then do the same practice with that.   K: Exactly. It’s not easy to do. There’s a reason that anybody who’s taking any sort of an English literature class will say there’s a reason you spend a lot of time working on and learning about themes is because they’re intangible. They’re nebulous. There isn’t a point at which, in the story, the character breaks the fourth wall and says, “Hey, just so you know, we’re introducing a new theme here! It’s compassion!”   R: But at the same time, you study examples in order to identify the universalities and that’s what themes are.   K: Yes.   R: So, if you learn how to work your theme around compassion, you can write twenty novels that are completely different that are all about compassion, and you’d get really good at it. You know?   K: Yeah, absolutely.   R: That’s why romance writers are really good at what they’re doing. By choosing their genre, they know what the theme is and they stick to it and, by the end, capital R, Romance writers are really, really efficient at getting stories written because they’ve already done this work. And every time you do this with a theme, it answers questions about the plot.   K: Yeah.   R: What needs to happen here? I’m lost. Well, okay, what’s your theme? What needs to happen here? Oh, well this!   Yeah, you answered your own question.   K: So, just to talk a little—with character arc, tightening that up and defining it a little better. Again, outlines here help. And it doesn’t need to be anything too detailed. It just needs to be this, then this, then this, then this and then throw some lines in there explaining what led to or motivated the character to get to that point. Character arcs, it’s funny because in some ways they are far more concrete than themes. You can actually sit down and outline a character arc, but I think it is harder sometimes to say, “Is this a character arc?”   The most important thing in the character arc is the character has to be different at the end than when they started. It can be something like RIpley in Alien where she hasn’t undergone a major personality shift, but she has changed the way she thinks and will act differently now because of that.    As opposed to someone like Luke Skywalker, who has the farmboy to legendary hero character arc, but Luke goes on this whole journey and at the end of it, he is a very, very, very different person than when he started because of all of the things that happened to him. All of the experiences, the adversity, the finding out his father’s Darth Vader. I mean, that alone—   R: Oh, I know. Plus he literally can’t go back to the life he had before.   K: Yeah, exactly. And that’s actually a very good marker of a successful character arc. Can they go back to how things were before? And if the answer is yes, your character has probably not had enough of a character arc for it to be considered a character arc.   R: Or it’s Indiana Jones.   K: Or it’s Indiana Jones. Because Indiana Jones always just goes back to how things were before. Indiana Jones has proof that God exists—   R: And goes back to university and just keeps teaching the Neolithic Era.   K: And just kept living his life! [laughs] Indiana Jones has multiple instances of literal proof that not only does the Judeo-Christian God exist, but also Hindu deities and various other things.   R: Mhm.   K: Aliens! All of this stuff and just continues on like it’s nothing. I don’t know what that says about him. If we should be impressed or horrified.   R: I think we’re supposed to be impressed. The idea being that the first time we see it happen is not the first time it happens for him.   K: I wanna be very clear about something: in the timeline of Indiana Jones because we all know—   R: Are we counting the River Phoenix and Young Indiana Jones?   K: Oh, no, but we’re counting the beginning of Last Crusade, to be sure.   R: Okay, alright.   K: Okay, so we’ve got Last Crusade, we’ve got that awesome train scene, whatever. Chronologically, then, Temple of Doom actually happens first.   R: Right, so we have the intro to Last Crusade, we have Temple of Doom—   K: And Temple of Doom, we establish that Hindu deities are clearly a real thing and a serious force to be reckoned with. Even if you wanna say, “Well, maybe it wasn’t the Hindu deities, it was magic,” okay fine, it was still bad, it was still, you know, unhappy.   R: Yeah.   K: Alright, so then we go to Raiders of the Lost Ark, at the end of that we have established that the Judeo-Christian God is a real thing that exists and does not like Nazis and you should not open the box.   R: Yep.   K: Then, we go to The Last Crusade, and in case anybody was a little like, “Meh, I’m not sure, that could’ve been who-knows-what, just because they said it was the Ark of the Covenant doesn’t mean that’s what it really was,” well now we’ve got the Holy Grail. The literal, actual Holy Grail that has kept a Crusades-era knight alive and then, if we’re still gonna take this a step further, heals his dying father’s mortal wounds.   R: Yup.   K: So, we have now established that multiple deities actually, really exist and this guy just freaking goes back to teaching college like this hasn’t rocked his entire world.   R: Teachers have a limited amount of vacation time.   [K laughs]   R: What is he gonna do?   K: Doesn’t he get summers off? I just assumed that was when all of these were happening.   R: I don’t think he has tenure yet? Once he has tenure, maybe.   K: Yeah, yeah. Good point. Anyway, the whole point is: Indiana Jones, not a great character arc. Can he go back to the way things were? Yes. He does.   R: Apparently!   K: Over and over again.   R: He resets to default.   K: Yes. Getting back—I apologize, we got sidetracked there again—   R: It’s fine.   K: It’s fine, we get excited. So how do you actually go about tightening these up? When somebody gives you the incredible, helpful note of tighten up your themes and character arcs. So helpful. What do you do?   Well, so, for themes I think a good technique is sort of what I mentioned. Go back either through your outline or through your manuscript for revisions, and identify motivations and actions and what themes stem from those.   R: And color-code them maybe, like you  said.   [40:14]              K: Maybe color code them. Take a step back, so to speak. Take a thousand foot view and say, “Is the story driven by these or are they happening because the story’s the thing that’s driving here?” If it’s the second one, you do not have tight themes. The themes should be the ones driving the story and motivating the characters and influencing the plot.   R: And by driving the story, we don’t mean stop at the end of every two paragraphs and reiterate what your theme is.   K: Yes, so how do you tighten this up? Identify things that are happening. Be they actions of characters or elements of the plot. Maybe external forces of nature, depending on what your themes are, and go in and emphasize those a little bit. Make it so that—Yes, you can’t have a character turn to the audience, wink, and say, “I’m doing this for love!” But you certainly can have an inner dialogue where they are acknowledging and identifying that what is motivating them is their love for their dog.   R: Mhm.   K: Or, I guess, their significant other. Whatever.   R: Mostly the dog.   K: Yeah, probably the dog. This goes into the Show Me, Don’t Tell Me.   R: Mhm.   K: See the characters react based on things that are important to them, and that brings forward your themes. I don’t like the phrase “tighten up your themes” I like the phrase “strengthen your themes.”   R: Yeah.   K: And emphasize your themes. Showcase your themes. With themes, you’re not contracting them. You’re trying to disperse them a little bit more through the story. You are showing, not telling.   R: The thing is, like, a bouillon cube.   K: Yes.   R: It starts very small, but it goes throughout your entire project.   K: And then there’s no getting it out again. It’s in there.    R, laughing: Yeah.   K: Character arcs, on the other hand, are absolutely something that can be tightened and focused. So, how do you do this?    First, look at your themes. How are they affecting the story? How are they affecting the character’s decisions? Then look at what the characters are doing. Is it primarily reactionary? Are they just letting things happen to them? Or do they have agency? Are they making decisions themselves?    And it’s okay if, especially for the first part of the book, they’re just reacting. A lot of stories start out with a character just trying to get their feet under them, to recover and reorient themselves from something happening.   R: Although, I wanna say that that does not mean they shouldn’t have some sort of agency.   K: Yes, there needs to be decision-making in there.   R: Maybe they want something that they’re going to end up not wanting at the end.   K: Well, it can come down simply to something like they’re running away from the alien monster that grew from what was living in the back of their fridge and, do I run upstairs and lock myself in the bedroom or do I run out the front door?   Yes, they’re running, but they’re making a decision of how they’re best going to try to escape this.   R: And they can make the wrong decisions, too. I mean, that’s kind of part of the character arc.   K: That is part of the character arc. So tightening these up has to do with having the character come up against a conflict or an obstacle or a decision and then learning and growing and changing from it. So, again, identifying the parts at which your character is coming up against conflict in some way. And conflict, here, not meaning physical or argumentative. Sometimes the conflict can simply be, “It’s low tide, I need to catch fish and I can’t catch fish when it’s low tide.”   R: Right.    K: It can be like a force of nature. And then identifying how they’re reacting. Then, the next time it’s low tide, have they instead gone, “Ah, yes, I should catch extra fish because on this planet low tide lasts for three days and, therefore, I’m not going to be able to fish again for three days.” That’s growing and learning and making new mistakes.   R: Like staying on this planet where low tide lasts for three days. Can you imagine the smell?   K: There’s a very weird mood pattern on this planet.   R: It’s pitch black but low tide.   K: Yes, exactly. So somehow. It’s really weird because there is no moon, actually. No one really knows where the tides are coming from.   So identifying the areas of conflict for your character, where they’re coming up against adversity, and then seeing how they’re making decisions. If they’re just not reacting, if they’re just not doing anything over and over again, that’s not character development. That’s not a character arc.   R: Mhm.   K: Having them grow and change and learn, maybe thinking: Okay, I’m safe now. I’ve locked myself in my room from the alien creature from the back of the fridge can’t get me. Oh, hang on a second. It learned how to open doors. That’s... what do I do now? Okay, I’ve got a chair I can put up against the door.   And then finally getting to the point of going: you know what? I should have just run outside. I need to get out of this house.   R: Mhm.   K: So, again, identifying areas where your character is coming up into conflict, figuring out how they’re reacting, and making sure that they’re learning and changing and not reacting the same way.   This is not a real thing, I wish it was, the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? Obviously that’s not correct.   R: Right.   K: But it is important with character arcs and character development. Having your character do the same thing over and over again is not character arc.   R: Although there’s that stubbornness to that, or that unwillingness to grow, that can be the character arc and suddenly they realize doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is not getting me where I want to go. And the thing they learn is not to do that anymore.   K: I am now being eaten by the thing that lived in the back of the fridge. I regret my life choices.   R: Yes.    [both laugh]   R: And that’s the morality lesson—the moral of the tale is clean out your fridge.   K: Clean out your fridge, people!    R: And not just in August.   K: Is that a thing that you do in August?   R: No, I’m saying… it’s just about coming up on August as we record this, don’t make it an annual event. Make it a…   K: You know what’s funny is that with all of the quarantining and stuff, I have been so much better about cleaning the fridge out because I’m just here all the time.   R: Mhm.   K: And I’m kinda like, “Huh.”   R: Well, when you go into an office you procrastinate by going to the lounge and making a cup of coffee and getting a drink or going to talk to somebody about something. But, when you’re home, how do you procrastinate? The only thing you can do is clean.   K: It’s kinda like I’m looking at this going, “Huh, that might start talking to me soon. I should probably do something about that.”   R: But if you’d been going into an office, you would’ve said, “That thing is talking, I should probably do something about that.”   K: I’m gonna go back to my office.   R: At least you’d be the only one there.   K: Yeah, yeah. Anyway! That was a very long-winded way of answering your questions and I hope that—   R: We answered it.   K: We hope that was helpful and not just a series of me rambling about uh—   R: At least we talked about interesting movies and people can relate to, at least Ripley. Especially right now.   K: I think we can all relate to Ripley on some level. One of my favorite behind-the-scenes thing with Alien is, have you ever seen the cute scenes from there? There was a part, it was so ridiculous, it would have ruined the movie, the actor that played the alien was like 6’8” or something and they just put him in this giant rubber suit. And I can’t remember what part of the movie it would’ve been in, but it was one of those where the character’s backing slowly with their gun into a room and they hear something behind them and they turn around and the alien’s there.   And there’s footage out there—look this up—of the alien crab-walking up to them. So just imagine this giant, 6’8” man in this heavy, absurd rubber suit crab-walking on all fours up to this actor. It—I understand what they were trying to do, and the sound effects were certainly creepy, but… it just ruined the whole, it was too ridiculous-looking. Thankfully, they saw that and cut it.   R: I think that has a lot to do with the human joints versus where the joints were supposed to be in this alien.   K: Yeah. Well that’s like in The Exorcist with Regan walking backwards down the stairs. Part of how creepy about that is how unnatural it looks. You’ve got joints going in directions that maybe humans can do that, but they probably shouldn’t.   R: Right, yeah. Exactly. So theme. Stay limber.   K, laughing: Yes! Anyway, Ashley, we hope we answered that for you and keep us posted. Let us know how things go with the story. And if you want to keep us posted on anything else—   R: You can find us online. We are on Twitter and Instagram @wmbcast. We are at Patreon.com/wmbcast where we have some awesome patrons who are supporting the show. And if you feel like we have been helpful, you can throw us some bus fare and stuff for when we’re allowed to go see each other again and get back together for our podcast episode recordings.   K: I was gonna say, I don’t think we’re allowed on buses anytime soon, Rekka.   R: No, we’re definitely not. And if you don’t have cash to spare to support the show, you can also help us out a lot by leaving us a rating on review on Apple podcasts. We’re everywhere. Stitcher, Spotify, all that good stuff. But if you wanna leave a review, it’s most helpful to leave it there. You can also shoot us an email, info@wmbcast.com, and we can answer a question if you have one. If you wanna keep it anonymous, that’s the way to do it. Otherwise, post it to Twitter like Ashley did, and we’ll answer it in a future episode.   K: Yeah. We’ll try our best. That’s for sure.   R: Yeah.   K: Alright, well, thanks everyone so much and we’ll see you in a couple weeks.   R: Take care, everyone!   [outro music plays]

REVIEW STARTS AT 15:30......I'm not going to sit here and blow sunshine up your ass. Giannis died, so I got a guest host! Just kidding. He's still alive. Unfortunately. Unlike Goose. Who as Olivia explains in her theory, was murdered by Iceman. Maybe Iceman can come back and help us with that one. Join Sean and guest Olivia (from "Year of Pacino") as they talk about why Top Gun is one of the greatest films ever made. Together, they want some butts, and they get some butts. Facebook Page , Twitter Page , Instagram Page ,Youtube Page, Patreon Page -------------Listen to "Year of Pacino" in the link here.

Sean and Giannis decide to settle their difference and watch a film they both enjoy.....the 1976 blaxploitation classic, "The Human Tornado"! Facebook Page , Twitter Page , Instagram Page ,Youtube Page, Patreon Page

We are joined this week with a very special guest... Justin Silverman of Cinemassacre! Drew is asked by viewers about imaginative insults, strange childhood beliefs and more vaping. Also an excellent end of show quiz hosted by our special guest.

No one asked for it, but here it is. My opinion. (Part of it) #independenceday #fourthofjuly #freedom #america #pov #american #liberty #justiceforall #raftalks #rafcomedy #coffee #morning #opinion #assholes #politicians #weed #smokeweedeveryday --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/raftalks/support

Prediction. Cancel culture will come for Kyle. CNN is still trash. Independence Day bby!! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Parody of The America World Police's "America F**k Yeah"

In this episode of Grumpy Guy BJJ we discuss BJJ schools disobeying government orders and opening up. Enjoy! If you take your training and recovery seriously get your hands on our new K2/D3 supplement R3.   You can get it here for only $15 with free shipping.   R3 ROLL-RECOVER-REPEAT   You can download this episode and follow us through Apple Podcast, Podbean or Stitcher.   Thanks again for all the support so far and please remember to let us know if you have any feedback on the show or suggestions for future episodes, just send us an email at grumpyguybjj@gmail.com.    Until next week…   James Wilson & Rob Eickhoff Grumpy Guy BJJ Podcast   p.s. Haven't downloaded you BJJ Improvement Starter Kit yet? Click here to sign up for it and start improving your BJJ today. 

Hey kids! Are you ready to sell out to make cash fast?!  In today's episode of We Make Books, we discuss what artistic integrity is, how to tell if you've blown yours to smithereens, and why it's 100% okay and good to make a living from your art. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns. Stay safe everyone! We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast   Episode 33: Artistic Integrity and Suffering For Your Arttranscribed by Sara Rose (@saraeleanorrose)[0:00]K: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of We Make Books, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between! I’m Kaelyn Considine and I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press.R: And I’m Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as R.J. Theodore.K: And, Rekka, as a writer—R: Which I am! Totally.K: Which you are, yeah, of course you are. You probably have a lot of opinions about what people tell you— R: Everything.K: Well, yeah, a lot of things in general. But, specifically, about other people’s opinions and them giving you suggestions and guidance and thoughts about what you should do, not only with your writing, but your life and how to support your continued writing, in your life.R, unenthused: Yeah. Yeah, they do that. So, you’re gonna intermix with a lot of people’s opinions over the course of your writing career. Especially as you let other people read your work. K: So today we’re talking about artistic integrity.R: Right. When people tell you to change stuff, where do you plant your feet?K: Not only people telling you to change stuff, however, also what you’re doing with your life in the meantime to support your art.R: Mhm.K: We were thinking about this episode and thinking about this idea of what does it truly mean to be a writer?R: Mhm.K: And we start far clear of that definition—Or, we really steer clear of that conversation because I, personally, am of the opinion that if you are trying to write something professionally, that makes you a writer.R: Correct. I also agree with you.K: Yes, so now that we’ve got that established.R: If you’re listening to this podcast and then, when it’s done, you go and you try to work on your writing, you are a writer.K: You are a writer. Congratulations.R: If you just listen to this podcast and you think about writing and you never go write. Uh, we might have to debate that one.K: You’re a… future writer.R: Yes, hopefully. Hopefully an aspiring writer.K: Yes, there you go.R: To be a writer without a modifier, is to write.K: There ya go. But there’s also a lot of conversation around, like, well if you’re doing this then you’re not serious about your writing career. If you’re, you know, not focused 100% on only writing, then how could you be serious about your writing career?R: Which is funny, you know, because it just occurred to me—we don’t cover this in the episode—but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been at a family gathering, speaking of opinions, where they find out I’m a writer and they say, “Oh you should write _____.” Children’s book. A Gone Girl. You know, whatever’s hot at the moment. Their opinion is you’ve gotta write the most commercial thing that I’ve actually heard of right now.K: Yeah, yeah. So there’s—You’re gonna run up against a lot of this stuff in your career, as you interact with people. So we, in this episode, talk first about this notion of if you’re not suffering, you’re not writing. Which is silly.R, sarcastically: If you’re not abusing prescription drugs or if you’re not abusing alcohol, then are you even trying to be creative?K: Yeah, exactly. Then what are you doing? But then, also, we discuss having to make changes and modifications to your story at the recommendations of other industry professionals. So it’s all within the same subject, but we’re covering two different angles from this. The before and the after, if you will.R: With an intro of: Why do we have to suffer, again? K: Yeah! Thanks everyone, again, for tuning in and we hope you enjoy the episode![intro music plays]R, deadpan: Kaelyn, I’m suffering.K: You’re suffering?R: Yes. Because I’m supposed to.K, ironically: And do you know what? That makes your work more valid!R: I am, yes, validated and authentic because of my pain and anguish.K: … Except you’re not because— R: No. ‘Cause that’s bullshit.K: ‘Cause that’s not really a thing.R: I mean, yes, it’s possible that someone who puts out good work is also suffering, but I would like to posit that I wish everyone felt better and that we could all see, because we all feel great, that suffering is not required for good art.K: So today we’re talking about artistic integrity.R: Or we’re going to try to.K: We’re going to try to. And what we kept coming back to is this idea that we seem to have a fixation on if you’re happy, you’re not making good art.R: If you haven’t cut off an ear, then you aren’t suffering enough.K: Well, I mean, look at tuberculosis. That was considered an artistic disease. People deliberately infected themselves with it because it was a slow, wasting, elegant disease. Of your body slowly breaking down and your heart not working anymore. R: Yeah. Lovely. Sign me up.K: Yeah, no. I mean that was… And, of course, it made you look like a vampire which was very in, in Victorian fashions, for whatever reason.R: It’s still kind of in sometimes, in some circles. Yeah, I mean, just give me some consumption and allow me to cough blood into my lace handkerchief on a settee and that’s how it works, right? K: Pretty much, yeah. You know the: [coughs softly] Oh goodness. I’d better tuck that away. I feel like every movie set in that era now—R: Someone has consumption, yeah. Both: Discreetly coughing blood into a handkerchief.K: And then, you know—R: Hiding it from their loved ones. That’s the ticket. That’s how you get to the Big Times.K: Look at Mary Shelley! She wrote Frankenstein while she and her husband and some of their friends were off seaside trying to cure his tuberculosis.R: Among other things.K: Among other things. So, anyway, you don’t need tuberculosis to produce good art.R: Please, in fact, do not try.K: We’re gonna start with this idea that levels of success in your life are dictating whether or not you’re a “real writer.” And there’s this very strong feeling toward: I am a writer, these are the things I will write, I will not do anything else but write this thing. And, if I need to, I will suffer for my art. I don’t care if I’m living in my parents’ garage living off ramen noodles. My art is my art, nothing is going to change that. I will suffer for it. Conversely, you’ve got some people who are trying to write what they wanna write and then also doing other things to supplement their income in the meantime.R: Right.K: And, Rekka, would you say that that is looked down upon in some circles?R: There are definitely circles that feel that people who write for IP which is, you know, a Star Wars book or a Minecraft book or a World of Warcraft book. Folks who write other people’s IP because it pays the bills are ‘selling out’.[07:19]K: Well, I wouldn’t even take it that far. You know, obviously, there is that component of the sell-out, but what about if you’re just picking up freelance jobs writing marketing copy?R: Right, so. Some people would probably say, everything you write that isn’t your greatest work of that time, is a waste of time, or is distracting you from being a better writer. Or something like that. Instead of taking the opportunity to say, pour your heart into everything you do and use the jobs that are not going to reward you artistically to practice something. Just writing all the time is always a good exercise if you wanna be a writer.K: Also, you know what’s nice? Money. R: Money is also pretty good. K: Money’s good to have.R: If you can pay for groceries, you can fuel your mind and body and then you might be a better writer.K: And, again, we did back into this notion of: doing something for the money lessens your artistic integrity. R: Right.K: There’s nothing wrong with doing things for money. Money is not a dirty thing.R: I mean, it’s physically pretty dirty.K: Well, yeah, no and there’s cocaine residue on a lot of it. But money, the concept of money itself—and having it—on its own, it doesn’t corrupt you. Being able to support yourself and live in a lifestyle that you consider comfortable, there’s nothing wrong with that.R: No, that should be what everyone aspires to and is able to reach, just by hard work. But that’s not the world we’re in. You know.K: Yeah, well, that’s a different issue.R: It’s a different episode. The Despair episode.K: But that’s exactly what we’re talking about here. There’s this mental block of: if I’m doing things other than creating my art, and I’m doing it strictly for the sake of the money, am I selling out? No, of course you’re not. A lot of people have jobs that they don’t necessarily love that you’re doing for the money. I mean, do you think I just wake up every day and go, “Boy. I really can’t wait to get on the phone and talk to people about network video equipment.” No!R: I mean, I assumed you do, but…K: Well, actually I do like talking to people, but… I’m doing this because they pay me to do this! And there is definitely this stigma in, I think, especially artistic circles that if you are working in some sort of creative or artistic endeavour, you must be doing it strictly for the love of doing it.R: Right.K: Rekka, you’re a graphic designer. R: Mhmm.K: Do you love everything you do?R: Absolutely not.K: Every project you work on?R: No, no. Not really at all. I mean, it’s not that I don’t love the work. I enjoy doing the process. I take pride in my work, but each individual project is not guaranteed to be something that inspires me and fills me with joy.K: Yeah, and so, why is writing any different? Because you can still take on a writing project that does not necessarily inspire you and fill you with joy, but it’s gonna pay you.R: I mean, you know what doesn’t inspire me and fill me with joy? Is the first draft? Can I just not do that part?K: That’s an excellent point.R: I mean, if I was going to be completely true to my artistic self, I would only revise and edit. And outline. I do like outlining.K, laughing: You do love outlines. But that’s the thing, is that your art is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Now, if you need money, and you have other means of working within your artistic means to make that money, that does not make what you’re doing any less valid.R, outraged: And you know what’s just absurd is that an artist is only supposed to—their work is only supposed to be very, very valuable after they’re dead. Like, what kind of bullshit is that? That the artist is the only one who doesn’t get to profit from their work?K: Well, that’s because at that point they’re not gonna make any more of it.R: Right.K: Some, and I’ll take it an extra step in how it’s even more sick, is because your entire catalogue is now complete. So everyone can evaluate what you will ever make in your life against itself.R: It sounds like you’re defending not paying the artist what their work is actually worth.K: Absolutely not. R: Yeah.K: Just saying, this is why stuff becomes more valuable after people die.R: No, but I’m saying—becomes more valuable after people die because you know they’re not gonna make any more. People wish they’d acted sooner. Wish they’d discovered them sooner, whatever. But why can’t that artist make a living wage of their art and still be an artist?K: Well, I think there are—writers are a little bit unique in this. Because writers, I’d say, are one of the groups of artists that do make their money in their lifetime. I’m sure there’s probably studies and things out there about this, there’s probably always a spike of books being bought after a writer dies.R: Mhm.K: That’s to be expected. The same way that there’s people who watch movies that an actor was in, after that actor dies. Part of it’s a nostalgia factor, part of it’s a “Oh! I’d always wanted to check that person out!” and now they’re dead. I think artists, however, and—this is a little bit all over the place—If you think of the modern artists that we can name right now, off the top of your head. Who can you name right now, off the top of your head? R: Banksy.K: Yeah. That’s exactly what I was gonna say. I think most people will say Banksy.R: Mhm. Because of headlines.K: Because of headlines and because Banksy’s got shtick. The reason, I think, behind a lot of this—and this is something that does not apply to writers—is that artists that create paintings, sculptures, what have you, it’s not easily accessible to the community at large. The art community is pretty exclusive. I would go so far as to say snobbish, in some regards.R: Yeah. But, again, it’s in their best interest to be snobbish. K: Absolutely it is, yep.R: There’s like a false rarity.K: Yeah, and that’s the idea with art is that, in theory, they’re creating one painting and there’s only gonna be one of those ever. Writers, on the other hand, benefit from this great thing where, first of all, their work is incredibly accessible.R: Right.K: Especially in this day and age. And, also, once you make a book, you can give the same piece of art to a bunch of people. And they can all read it together and interpret it how they want to interpret it.R: From across the country, across the world. They do not have to be in one gallery looking at it for the two hours that the gallery is open.K: Yes. So, that also then puts some pressure on the writers, I think. Who are trying to navigate and discover and figure out their own art. I resent the idea that working on projects that are not your magnum opus for money makes you less of a writer, less of an artist.R: Right.K: Because why would it?R: Because if you’re a chef you better not ever eat a box of Kraft macaroni and cheese.K, laughing: I don’t think anyone should eat a box of Kraft macaroni and cheese, ever. But that’s, you know.R: Hey, it’s delicious. I don’t eat it, but that’s not because I don’t like the taste.K: Ah, see, I was never a fan.R: Oh, okay. K: My mom used to try to—I remember even when I was a kid, my mom would be like, “Oh, we’re having—” and my sisters and brother would be so excited. I would be like, “Can I just have a sandwich, please? I don’t think this is good.”R: It’s funny. My mom never bought it, so when I’d go to a friend’s house and they were making it, I would always be like, “Oh, my god this is amazing!”K: So exciting!R: Yeah.K: No, I was never a fan.R: So one of the things I need to point out is that “the dream” of being an author is becoming a full time writer.K: Yes.R: One of the things that’s very difficult to do is be a full time anything, if you’re not being paid for it.K, sighing: Yes.R: Somehow we haven’t worked out how to make that easy.K: Yeah. The thing is that no one is going to pay you enough money to live off of for the rest of your life, to sit and work on writing something.R: Yeah.K: At some point you’ve gotta produce something that can be sold.R: Yes. And the more you can produce that can be sold, the better, for your income stream predictability.K: Now, that said, the thing that you’re producing that can be sold, like my earlier example, might be market copy.R: Yeah.K: Maybe, you know, you do need to spend a lot of time still working on what is truly deep in your artist heart that you want to put out in the world. But, by doing that, you’re supporting yourself. And the people that are paying you to do it are, in a roundabout way, supporting your writing. R: Yeah! It’s pretty funny how that works, right? They are supporting your writing career, even if all they want from you is some marketing text of 300 words or less. If you get paid for that, that supports your writing career. When you can pay for the basic necessities of your life, your stress goes down and it makes it a heck of a lot easier to work on your writing. I know we said the Suffering Artist is an unfair thing, and that’s why. You can’t create if you are spending eighteen hours of every day tearing your hair out and six hours of every day not sleeping and creating fever-driven work. That’s not healthy and it’s not sustainable and it’s not kind that we’ve set up this expectation that you should suffer. So having your basic income needs met, through whatever means.I would happily “become a full time writer” and work six hours every couple of days as a barista or something like that.K: Mhm.R: I mean, to me, that’s actually kind of fun because I love coffee, I love talking to people, and I, you know, worked a similar job in high school. So, to me, that sounds like fun. That’s probably some people’s absolute nightmare and that’s why we have so many people in the world who can handle different jobs. Some people are better at it than others. K: There are people with my job that I think would rather walk into the ocean than do my job. I don’t think my job is that hard or difficult, in terms of my day to day. For some people it would be a living nightmare.R: So for people who can write all day, you probably still can’t write creatively all day. Coming up with your novel. If you spent ten hours at the keyboard every day on your novel, you would burn out. Because your brain just needs to switch tracks sometimes. If you can work from home as a full time writer, I don’t think you’re going to spend all that time working on your novel. It’s not like, “Oh! Now, with a day job, I write two hours a day. But now I’m going to be able to write ten hours a day and it’s going to make me so much more productive!” It may not actually increase your creative writing output by anything.But what you can do to supplant that is to continue to write copy, you can write non-fiction op-eds, you can write things that you can submit to Tor.com, kind of things.K: You can write book reviews!R: Book reviews, exactly! Articles on the industry. Get supported that way.K: Go back and listen to our episode from a few weeks ago about publishing reviews and publishing literature. Publishers Weekly has hundreds of people whose job is just to freelance write book reviews for them.R: Yup.K: If you want to remain in your realm of employ— R: Your wheelhouse.K: Yeah! That’s a great way to do it.R: And that was Episode 29: Industry Reviews. K: This notion that doing anything but working on what it is you want to publish is selling out, I think, is a very damaging mentality to have. I think it, long-term, could end up hurting your career.R: Mhm.K: And it’s certainly not gonna make you any friends.[20:19]R: Yes, and these might lead to new discoveries. The things you learn—if you have to research and write copy for something that you might never have researched—you might end up putting into a book someday. Everything you do is either writing exercise or just brain exercise, so I don’t think we should discount anything. It doesn’t matter what you’re doing, everything feeds your experiences and it comes into your writing later.K: I look back at weird jobs I had in college and I can’t believe the stuff that I picked up and took away from that. That was just to make some extra money while I was a student. Did that mean that I wasn’t very serious about my studies and I was copping out on all this? No, absolutely not! It meant that I was a college student and had no money and occasionally liked to drink beer and therefore needed money to get beer.R: Right.K: I don’t think anyone would ever accuse me of not being serious about becoming a historian because I tutored and worked in the library. And I don’t think that it’s fair, or even rational, to say the same thing about writers.R: Yeah! And your example is perfect because you tutored and worked in the library and these are things, actually, not all that far away from what you were majoring in.K: Yeah!R: I mean, it’s kind of like writing business copy or corporate copy or commercial copy instead of working on your novel.K: So now, that said, there is sort of a flipside to this conversation about artistic integrity and that is once you’ve finished something, now.R: Mhm.K: So you have suffered, you have struggled, you have rolled the boulder up the hill and now someone is interested in publishing this. Maybe you just even hired an editor to take a look at it.R: Mhm.K: And they’ve got some suggestions. R: Right. So this could be, like Kaelyn was saying, an editor, it could be an agent. It could be a beta reader.K: Let’s say you’ve got a completed manuscript, it’s in good enough shape that you’re gonna let other people see it. I’m gonna use the example, here, of an agent or an editor. Let’s say we’re dealing with someone at a professional level, at this point. They say, “Listen. I really like this book. The zombie dinosaurs at the end are a really great twist. Never saw that coming. I really like how the aliens show up at the beginning and they’re the ones who, it turns out, were manipulating the zombie dinosaurs the whole time. Got one little problem here though, at one point you introduce some hobbits. The hobbits just really don’t go with the story. I think you need to take out the hobbits and really shift this to complete sci-fi, rather than making it a little bit of a sci-fi fantasy.” But! If the hobbits are something really important to your story, in your mind, how do you approach this? And if you change that, what does that say about your artistic integrity?R: Right. So this is a absurd example of some of the possibilities—K, contrarily: No, it’s not. I’m gonna go write this book after we’re finished.R: Well, good! I hope you leave the hobbits in.[K laughs]R: But Kaelyn and I were talking about this before we started recording. I gave a more concrete, or more likely, example that she avoided. But I think what she’s doing is making a generalization and we can go into the specifics of where do you make these decisions. You have to be able to draw the line and know where your line is on the various things that you might be asked. K: Now, I’m going to stop Rekka real quick and say, when you draw your line, that means that you’ve gotta be willing and ready to walk away from something.R: Mhm. That might be an agent who was going to offer you a deal, but they just think you are too stubborn.K: That line has to be a real line for you. So, before you are willing to draw it in the sand and stick the stake in the ground, think really long and hard about how worth it that thing is to you.R: The nice thing is, in most cases, you’re gonna be able to have a conversation with the person making the suggestion to see what it is about the hobbits they don’t like. K: Like the big feet. They must be so gross, they don’t wear shoes.R: Yeah! Is it just that this editor apparently has a thing against feet and it’s just going to trip them up, specifically, or is it honestly the fantasy aspect of it. Is there a logical reason? Is there something that actually contradicts something else you’re doing in your book? If every other character in your book is a human, and everything is dealing with the humans and the aliens, and then these dinosaur zombies, maybe the hobbits do feel like they came from another book. And if there’s no logical explanation, someone might be able to debate you into seeing in that way. And saying, “Pull the hobbits out, put ‘em in another book! I don’t have a problem with that. But not this book.”K: Rekka was right, I made kind of an absurdist, general example because it’s just trying to give you a big picture idea. Things you are more likely to encounter, though, are going to be related to the marketability of your book. In that example, I had said, we want to take the fantasy element of this out and move it more towards a strictly sci-fi audience that we think will pick up on this really well. But then more controversial things could come up. What if, instead, the conversation is: this queer character is going to alienate a lot of the target audience.R: There’s an excellent question to respond with that: Do we care about that audience?K: Yes! So this is where I’m saying your line is. Because the thing is that if you’re talking to, for instance, an agent, or an editor at a publishing house for that matter, at the end of the day everyone is trying to make money off of this book.R: Mhm.K: Thankfully, a lot of the publishing market and the people involved have shifted where, not only is this stuff— R: Less controversial than it used to be, yeah.K: Not only is writing things that ten, fifteen years ago would have been a nail in the coffin for a book, it’s celebrated and encouraged now. People are looking for it. But someone might say to you, “Listen. This is a hard military sci-fi book. The people, this social commentary you have in it, that’s not going to appeal to this audience. They just wanna read about spaceships fighting each other near Jupiter. If you wanna sell a lot of this, take that stuff out.”R: Right, so if someone’s looking at your book and they see it as military science fiction, with an unfortunate helping of social commentary, when what you were doing was—Your vision was to have the social commentary as a throughline with the framing of this military science fiction genre, you two may never see eye to eye on this.K: And that may make them not wanna publish your book.R: And that may make you not want to publish with them! I mean, it goes both ways. If someone comes to you and they want to fundamentally change what you’re doing with the book, or in the case of the queer characters, if they want to strip out diversity or identity that you strongly believe in supporting, maybe walking away is the best option. People seem to fall into the trap of this may be the only offer I ever get.K: But, here’s the thing: it might be.R: It might be!K: And that is a very—And this is why I’m saying you need to figure out where your line is because, I won’t sugarcoat it, that could be a very hard decision for you to make.R: But, how do you make that decision? Try to picture yourself in five years, having gone with what the changes they suggested were. How are you going to feel about that?K: By the way, you may be totally fine with those changes. Maybe the agent says, “Listen, I want you to take the social commentary out of this first book. Just get a hard military sci-fi book going, build an audience, and then once you’ve hooked them, let’s absolutely go back and write that book.” Not everything is going to be a clear cut-and-dry, this or nothing. As Rekka said, you know, there’s probably gonna be a conversation here. There’s gonna be a talk about this, but it is something that you’re gonna have to decide. Is it more important to you to write the book that you had set out to write, or is it more important to you to get a book published?R: Right. Keep in mind that in these situations, where this is your first chance, your first debut book we assume. This does set the tone for the rest of your career. Under this pen name. There’s always a chance to debut again with a different pen name in a different genre, or just to start over. But if you do that because you regret the choices you made—Keep that in mind as you make the choices. If the choice isn’t a big deal to you. If, as Kaelyn said, it doesn’t bother you to make the requested changes then that doesn’t even come into play. Clearly, it’s not a thing you’re going to regret. But don’t do it because you feel like you need their approval. K: Now, also though, changing those things based on suggestions also does not make you a sell-out. There is nothing wrong with an agent saying, “Listen, if you can make these small changes,” and you’re on board with them and happy with them, and the agent is saying, “Make these because it will reach a broader audience,” or “It will reach this more focused and fanatical audience and you can sell more books,” that also does not make you a sell-out. There is nothing wrong with making some small adjustments to try to get your book to appeal to a broader audience. Because, again, there is nothing wrong with wanting to try to make money off your writing. R: Right.K: And to capitalize the ways that you’re doing that.R: As long as you’re not compromising your morals.K: Yes! Yeah, of course.R : If you, as Kaelyn said, if you can make these changes and be happy with them. If you make those changes and you hate them forever, that’s not the right change for you to make.K: Can you sleep at night, having made these changes?R: Right, can you sleep at night five years from now?K: Or is there a pit in your stomach every time you think about it?R: Yeah. If this is the sort of thing where it’s that moment you think back on and, no matter how far away from it you get, you’re embarrassed every time or you squirm in discomfort, then keep that in mind. K: One thing I’m gonna bring up from the publishing side of things. As a writer, do not think: “Well, I’ll agree with this now, but when it comes time to actually put this on paper and start getting it published, I’ll just leave it in there and fight with them about it then.” Don’t do that for a couple reasons.One, you’re gonna piss people off. And that’s just not something you wanna do. If you had a conversation with the understanding that you would do things in good faith, hold up to that. Because, conversely, there is probably language in your agreement that—R: That you are going to change those things.K: —that you are going to do this. It is not uncommon for agents and publishing houses to put specific things in contracts that say: blahblahblah, with the understanding that you will do the following. You will take the hobbits out of the book. You will not mention anyone’s feet. The zombie dinosaurs will remain zombies.It is not uncommon to find those kinds of clauses and stipulations and agreements. And the reason that publishing houses do this is because they’re used to dealing with authors and their protectiveness over certain elements of their story. So if you agree to something and say, “Yes, I’m going to make those changes,” guess what? You’ve committed to making those changes.R: Yeah.K: Even if it’s not in writing, you are going to burn a lot of bridges if you don’t.R: If they brought it up with you before they offered you a contract, it’s that important to them.[33:00]K: Yes, yes exactly.R: And—here’s the thing—we’ve been talking about all of this as though there’s a contract right in front of you that, like, you could sign this if you make these changes. You may also get revise and resubmit requests from agents or you may get rejections with some suggestions from agents, if you’re lucky. I mean, you might get form letters, too, but if an agent says, “I’m passing on this, here’s why ___.” Don’t necessarily take that as the next one will take it, if I make this change.K: That’s a very good point, yeah. R: Especially if it’s something that you feel weird about making the change on. Like, if you think making one agent’s request is going to get you the next agent, you are sadly mistaken. Everyone is an individual. We have not joined the Borg hive mind yet. So, therefore, what one agent says does not apply to all agents. Unless they tell you your grammar is bad. Then you can verify that. K: Yeah, that’s probably pretty across the board.R: But, yeah, so if they’re rejecting with some suggestions, that doesn’t mean you’re a shoo-in if you make those changes, for the next person. At best, you wanna evaluate, if you disagree with them, why you disagree, what that person’s perspective on it might have been, and then you can consider: maybe I want to go in and revise that section or revise that element before I submit again. But if you react in compliance with every criticism you get, you’re going to have a very exhausting writing life.K: Yeah, yeah exactly. So artistic integrity, I think, is murky waters for a lot of people because you want to sell your book, you want people to enjoy it. You want to appeal to a broad audience. One of the biggest issues, I think, a lot of books come up against is relatability. At the end of the day, no matter what, relatability is central to appealing to an audience. However, you don’t have to water that down to the point where you end up with a bland character who is a placeholder for anyone to insert themselves into. R: Right.K: That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re not talking about making this essentially a Choose Your Own Adventure starring— R: You.K: —the person reading the book. So it is a hard thing for a lot of people to navigate. But, at the end of the day, you have to go with the choices and decisions that are gonna make you happy and are going to make you satisfied with what you’ve put out into the world.R: Right. And, honestly, there’s a feeling in your gut that you know when you’re not happy with an idea. And there’s a feeling in your gut when you just feel silly that you didn’t see that change, you know? And they’re different. They come from different parts of you. So learn to identify how you take criticism. Maybe go out and find a critique group and just learn to take the hits and understand your reactions to them. That’s a good exercise. I mean, I would hope that someone’s read your work before an agent or an editor and a publisher, so if you haven’t gotten people’s eyes on it and gotten their reactions to it, it might be just a good place to start. To help process your own feelings about what people say. And it’s gonna be different from what the agent or editor says. That’s why we’re saying, “Would you make these changes for an agent or editor?” Because they’re the people who hold the keys to the next step in your career.K: And, again, I would just round out this conversation by reinforcing: it is not a bad idea to sit down and write down, for that matter, what the most important things are to you.R: Yeah.K: Is it most important to get your story, exactly how you have it, out into the world, or do you just first want to get a story out into the world, and get it in front of as many people as possible? Neither of them are bad. You just have to decide what’s important to you.R: Right. Neither is the wrong answer. But what’s your answer?K: Exactly, yeah. And it might be somewhere in between! There’s no—I shouldn’t be presenting these as binary options. But decide what’s important and work from there. R: So, basically, you need to identify your goals and then ask yourself, whenever you’re faced with a decision: which direction, or does this get me to my goal? K: Yep, yep. So that’s artistic integrity, our thoughts on it.R: Artistic Integrity: something that has riled people up for centuries. We covered it in thirty-eight minutes. K: I mean, what can I say. R: The simplest things get people very angry. So, as usual, you can yell at us @wmbcast on Twitter or Instagram—K: Yeah, tell us if we’re violating our artistic integrity just by having this podcast in the first place.R: And you can reach out to us with questions, also, or ideas for future episodes. You can find us at wmbcast.com for our backlist of episodes. This is Episode 33 now, so there’s lots to catch up on if you are just entering the stream now. You can also find us at patreon.com/wmbcast where you can support us for as much as you like, in order to give us a little financial nod of approval. And if that’s too much to ask, which we totally understand, if you could leave us a rating and review—and review!?—on Apple podcasts, to help our audience grow and help us reach more people so we can give them our opinions on artistic integrity.K: Ratings and reviews, they feed the algorithm.R: They do, they do.K: We are all beholden to the algorithm.R: And its appetites! All right, thanks everyone! We’ll talk to you next time.[outro music plays]

Our intrepid heroes are losing their minds during the quarantine and decided to watch two movies starring puppets. Team America: World Police (2004) and The Happytime Murders (2018).

Episode 54: We talk about Tiger King (of course) Shell and Beaver have not watched it. We also talk about Ozark, season 3, a couple gets mad that they can't buy 552 cans of Mountain Dew, an idiot "influencer" licks a toilet seat and gets the rona, porn star birthdays and MORE! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/thepoolsidepodcast/message

It's The Petty Rage Traffic and Travel News with CJ and Dax. You guessed it, we're back on the travel train raging about cars and drivers. Something grinding your gears? Let us know! PettyRage@gmail.com Or send us a message on our social media pages: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PettyRagePod/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/PettyRagePod Instagram: https://instagram.com/PettyRagePod

Today we time travel 65 million years into the past with the pre-historic punk rock cuties in F**k Yeah, Dinosaurs! Also, be sure to stop by www.dinopunks.com and & http://www.igg.me/at/fyd to pre-order their new album on vinyl and stuff.   ALSO AVAILABLE ON: SPOTIFY: http://bit.ly/startthebeat-spotify APPLE: http://bit.ly/startthebeat-apple GOOGLE:http://bit.ly/startthebeat-google STITCHER: http://bit.ly/startthebeat-stitcher YOUTUBE: http://bit.ly/startthebeat-youtube INSTAGRAM: http://bit.ly/startthebeat-instagram

What a blast of an episode! This week we are joined by Vania (@surfmartian) and she tells Dustin (@fortheloveofgrain) Edward (@edwardconde_) and Mac (@macshootsfilm) all about being a beach alien and shooting slow film in the water. We also announce our Ko-fi rewards tiers where the donations go to the Kids! DONATE FOR THE KIDS!!! ko-fi.com/grainydayzpodcast --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/grainydayz/message

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! Week Three of Submissions September and oh boy did we really run with it this time!  This week we are bringing you not one, not two, but three episodes and they’re all about those mysterious creatures known Literary Agents.  Who are they?  What do they do?  How do you summon one?  For this episode, we sat down with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald to discuss all this and more.  We loved talking with Caitlin and hope that our discussion might remove a bit of the fear and mystery from proccess of querying agents.  Caitlin is with the Donald Maass Literary Agency and you can (and should!) check her out her and her work at: Website: http://maassagency.com/caitlin-mcdonald/ Twitter: @literallycait - https://twitter.com/literallycait/status/1154917792619139073 Tumbler: https://literallycait.tumblr.com/   And be sure to check out new and upcoming releases from some of her clients!   The Resurrectionist of Caligo: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KDWLM3P The Library of the Unwritten: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/608277/the-library-of-the-unwritten-by-a-j-hackwith/9781984806376/ In case you’re just joining us, this month is Submissions September on the We Make Books Podcast!  We’re doing seven (7!) episodes this month all about the process of submitting your novel.  We have a lot of awesome discussions lined up and even some special guests.  Here’s what will be coming your way for the month: Week 1 (9/3/2019): Is This Ready For Other People to See?- Submitting Your Manuscript Week 2 (9/10/2019): My Entire Novel in Three Hundred Words - The Dreaded Query Letter Week 3 (9/17/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 1: An Interview with Literary Agent Caitlin McDonald               (9/18/2019): Agents of Literature, Part 2: Interviews with Agented Authors               (9/19/2019): Agents of Literature Part 3: Interviews with Agented Authors Week 4 (9/24/2019):What is Going On Over There? - The Other Side of the Submissions Process Week 5 (9/30/2019): Now I’m Even More Confused – Submissions September Q&A Episode We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and any stress relief suggestions for Kaelyn while she deals with the Giants’ will-they-won’t-they Eli Manning and Daniel Jones situation. Seriously guys, she can’t do a whole season of this. We hope you enjoy We Make Books!   Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Kaelyn (K): Hey everyone, welcome, another episode of the We Make Books podcast, a show about writing, publishing, and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine, I'm the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (R): And I'm Rekka and I write Science Fiction and Fantasy as R J Theodore. K: So Week Three, Submissions September. And this week's a doozy. R: We've got a lot of episodes for you this week. K: Yeah, so, what we ended up doing instead of just one episode about agents, we.. you're actually getting three this week. The first one is going to be an interview with an actual literary agent. Caitlin McDonald took some time to talk to us, she was lovely, we had such a great conversation and that's what you're going to be listening to today. Then, we have two more episodes that we're going to be putting out Wednesday and Thursday. R: Yeah, we're just going back to back with this. K: And we talked to six different authors about their process getting an agent... R: They're experience working with them. K: Yeah, cause I think there's... what we're learning, talking to people, there's a lot of mystery around this. R: Yeah. Mmm-hmm. K: Everyone is very uncertain about what agents do, and how you get one. R: And how you're allowed to use them. K: Yes. Yeah, so we had a really great time talking to Caitlin who gave us some really interesting insight and... Yeah, Week Three: Agents. We… Three episodes, because it turns out there's a lot to say about that. R: You know, this is a big part of it for a lot of people. K: Yeah, it's the check mark. It's a huge check mark for a lot of people in this process is: “Get agent." So take a listen, we had a great time talking to Caitlin and hopefully you enjoy the episode. [music] 02:01  Caitlin (C): I’m Caitlin McDonald. I'm a literary agent at Donald Maass literary agency. I represent primarily Science Fiction and Fantasy for adult and young adult, as well as a little bit of nonfiction. I've been in the business for... I think, eight or nine years no? I lost track, but around there. R: So over eight or nine years you've seen it change a little bit, with going, you know, so heavy on digital all of a sudden, and the opportunities for print on demand, opening up smaller publishers… C: Yeah, absolutely. Actually, at my first agency I was involved in a lot of reworking backlist contracts that had no language for digital to kind of, you know, deal with that change that was really becoming a huge deal. That was 2011, so... there was a lot. It was, obviously 2008 was kind of when digital really hit the market—  K: Yeah. R: Right. C: —started to become... um, but like, 2011 was when people really said, "Okay, this isn't going away. This is serious." [Kaelyn and Caitlin talking over each other and laughing.] K: Oh, people will read things off screens! They don't always need the physical book in their hand. C: And it's not going to kill paper! K: No, no not it's not. C: It's a supplement. K: Yeah. So, Caitlin, could you maybe tell us a little about what a literary agent does? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions out there about, like, "Oh, as soon as I get an agent, that's it, then my book's gonna get signed," or, "I'm never gonna do this unless I get a literary agent." Um, I think a lot of authors who are looking for agents maybe don't always know what the agent will do for them. What their job is, after you sign with them. C: Sure, so there are some things that kind of differ from agent to agent, particularly, there's also differences between if you have an agent who focuses on Non Fiction or, versus Fiction. So, it's always worth having a conversation with an agent and asking this question of them directly if they're offering representation because their answer may vary from what I'm about to describe here. But, at the, you know, the basic level, typically, in addition to most of us these days do editorial. So, I will do at least two rounds on a manuscript before I send it out on submission even after I've acquired it, there's always gonna be at least one round of line editing but usually even before that, I'm doing at least one round of structural edits, areas where I'm saying, "I love this character but strengthen their character arc, you know, make their motivations clearer.” “X Y Z isn't working, let's find a way to fix that.” So, I always make sure that I'm doing editorial before we go out on submission. Obviously, submission is the Big Thing™, that's what everyone gets an agent for, but even after we have that deal in place for you, part of our job is to negotiate it so that it's the best deal it could be, both in terms of the offers but also the contract language. So sometimes there are elements that, you know, authors don't necessarily know or that don't come up in the offer point, so it's not a deal point of how much money you're getting, what sub-rights you're contracting out, but really nitty gritty language in the contract that might be boilerplate between the agency and the publishing house but maybe the publisher recently revised their standard contract, so we have to make sure that the language is still what we agreed to. You know, really little things, we're here to make sure that everything is the best it could possibly be for our authors. And then, also staying on top of everything afterwards as well. Os I don't just well, “Here's your editor, the book deal is signed, it's their problem." I'm still there to make sure that you know, everyone is on target for deadline, that the publisher is delivering on publicity and marketing that they agreed to. That, if there are any concerns coming up, a copyeditor who's making changes that the author doesn't like—I've had that problem before. Anything that, you know, any concerns my author has, any discrepancies, any time issues, all of that, I'm here to kind of be a mediator between my author and the publisher. If an author has a problem with anything, if they have a question they're afraid to ask the editor directly, I'm here to kind of be the difficult person so that the author can maintain their good relationship with the editor. The author should never have to ask a hard question or demand something that is going to seem pushy, because that's my job. I'm the one who gets to be pushy and maybe be the person that the publisher goes, "Ugh, them again." But they'll get to have a good relationship with their author. K: I always really enjoy going through the agent because authors, you know, don't wanna be pushy and they're a little, "Oh, I don't want to step on anyone's toes here," and with the agent it's like, "Okay, let's just figure this out." C: Exactly. We also know what's standard. What's a reasonable request where we can come in and say, "Okay, the publisher's not going to be able to do that but here's a compromise that we can suggest." So we can help mediate a lot of those elements where an author may want something but not know whether it's standard, whether it's something that they should ask for or can ask for, not knowing what is normal. K: Yeah I mean for a lot of authors this is kinda their first foray into publishing and it's overwhelming and it's things that they think they should know already and they really don't. And there's no reason that they should. So, yeah, having and agent, someone that's in your court and able to help you navigate that is so valuable. A lot of people who're going to be listening to this probably do not have an agent already, and they want one. When you're evaluating potential clients to take on. What are you looking for? Obviously a good book is the first major component. But beyond that, is there anything you kind of take into consideration when making decisions on these things? C: Certainly there's an element of understanding how to pitch, clear market identity, knowing that they clearly understand and read within their genre. So, they may... I don't expect them to, you know, know every, have read every book and be as on top of the industry and what's coming out in the next, you know, year, as someone who's in the industry, but I do expect that they read within their genre, that they have comp titles that are relevant, that they show an understanding of what readers are looking for in the sense that they themselves are a reader. So sometimes I'll see queries that come in and describe.. some.. they say, "Oh, this pitch is something that's never been done before," and clearly it has. Then I'm going, "Okay. You definitely don't read this genre at all, and this is probably not a good fit." You need to really make sure you're reading in your genre and demonstrate some understanding of it, because otherwise we will be able to tell. Uh, the other thing that is really helpful is a little bit of that personalization when you're pitching to an agent can just be really helpful. It's not necessary, per se, but I do find it incredibly helpful to show that you know, you've done a little bit of research and it gets me more excited about a project if you know things that I'm specifically looking for. Not just my genre but specific details of things I'm interested in things that I'm looking for that you can cite and say, "Yes, my work has this and I know you want that." Then that can really get me excited about it before I even get to the sample pages and that's a really good way of grabbing an agent's attention. K: You hear that, listeners? Slapping the same thing together and sending it out over and over again is not the best way to get someone's attention, actually doing some research and putting some time into —because that's something we talk about a lot, is this is not an easy process, so if it seems easy to you you're probably not doing it the right way.  R: So one place that folks can find your particular manuscript interests would be on your submissions page? Your submissions guidelines, generally. Um, lightly browse (do not stalk) your twitter, and if the agent is listed on Manuscript Wishlist, which is a website that like, puts together a lot of agents. They can fill out profiles and keep it updated themselves of what they're looking for. That's a couple of places where you can find out, is this agent interested in something I'm writing, and also a lot of agents will have the headers on their social media include the books they've worked on. So if you look at that header photo, it's like a real quick double-check. Is anything.. do I write like anything on here. One, if you haven't read anything on there, stop what you're doing if you're really interested in that agent, and read something that they've worked on. But, it's a quick check, just like, "None of this is anything like what I write, maybe I should look for a different agent, and not waste their time." K: Yeah. Along those lines, one of the questions we had sent along was, "Agents, when they open for queries, this has to do with the alignment of the stars, correct?" C: Absolutely. K: "And the tidal forces of the moon and..." R: "Magic. Lots of magic." K: "And various other natural phenomenon." But when those things happen, what makes you decide like, "Okay, I'm ready to be open for queries again. I'm ready to take on new clients"?
C: I man, I'm sure it's different for every agent. For me, specifically, it really has to do with how much time that I have. How I'm doing with current client manuscripts. Whether I've caught up on all of the queries already in my inbox. That's often something I have to make a really concentrated push, after I close to queries, to then get through all of the ones that are still need to be responded to. Then give myself a little bit of time to get through some manuscripts. I wish I could say that I only open to queries when I've responded to all of the fulls that I've already requested, but that's not the case because then I'd probably never open to queries." K: as an acquisitions editor, I can say the same thing, that I always have a few that I'm still working through but it's like, "But I also need more for the future, so we're gonna open for submissions again." It's hard to balance that. C: Yeah, yeah it is and the work-life balance as well, there's so many elements. Because I think the thing to keep in mind is that most agents aren't reading queries during work hours. They're reading them during their own personal time. Our work hours are dedicated to our clients, editing manuscripts, possibly reading fulls, but for the most part, it is working on our clients and editing the existing manuscripts, going out on submission, making sure everything is up to date. All of the work that is involved with being an agent for our existing clients is pretty much a full time job and finding new clients to add to our list is an important part of our job but it also usually happens outside of the parameters of our forty-fifty hour work week whatever you .. however you define that. I'm often sending queries at ten o'clock at night and that's just how it is. When you have the time for it. K; Yeah. Same thing. I get responses from people that are like, "Uh, were you up this late?" I'm like, "I'm up that late every night. That's when I get my work done!" We talked about this a little you know, when you said what does a literary agent do, but: relationships with authors. Obviously, like, one of your big things is, you're in that person's court. You are their advocate, you are there, making sure that they get the best possible publishing deal, making sure everyone's happy, handling difficult situations for them. But beyond that, your relationship with a writer, what is that like? What do they expect from you? Obviously, it will change depending on how things are happening in their career, but what's your relationship like leading up to a release and then, for example, afterwards? C: This is such a good question because it' actually really important for an author to know what they need about themselves before, if they can. Which is hard to know if you've never had an agent, but if you can try to figure out 'what's important to me?' beforehand, then having that conversation helps you know whether the agent is going to be a good fit for you. Because it really varies for all of my clients. Some of them, you know, I'm in almost constant touch with. Some of them I only head from them when they have a manuscript ready and they send it and it's already revised and they feel like they just... "here it is!" and others are going, "Here are my next... here are one-sentence pitches for my next eight ideas, which one should I do?" "Here's a partial draft." so it really really varies. I've got some authors where I'm working with them on all sorts of different levels of early stages of manuscripts and others that don't come to me until they've got something nearly complete, or at least a full first draft, or a full synopsis, you know, it really really varies. and then the level of contact that they want also varies from author to author there are some who I'm here as you know an emotional support as well as all of the other tasks that my job entails. And then others who are very happy to sort of sit back and only reach out when they actually have a specific publishing question or concern that needs to be addresses. So it really really varies, wildly and it's important to kind of know "how much do I want my agent to be in touch?""Am I more comfortable with email of phone?" "Am I going to be someone who wants to be able to text my agent?" These are the kind of questions that it helps to be able to look a little bit inside and say, "this is.. these are the kinds of communication limits that I want with an agent," and to talk to them about it beforehand and make sure that that's what you're going to be getting from the agent you're looking for. K: Well now, you, I'm sure, in a lot of situations, have to set some boundaries. C: That is true, um, but it.. there often, I find, it's something that is done not necessarily explicitly. I kind of set what I'm comfortable with and if that means I'm not responding to emails that aren't super important on the weekend, then that's just something isn't necessarily discussed beforehand, per se? I know this sounds a little bit contradictory to what I just said, but like R: No but by your responses, you're setting their expectations. C: Exactly. Exactly. K: I know some people that, when they first signed with their agent they're like, "I have this question," and I'm like, "Well go ask your agent then." C: Yes. Exactly. K: "That's what they're there for." "I don't wanna bother them." "That.. I.. you are not bothering them. Other.. you know, you're not calling them at one in the morning having a breakdown about something." That's bothering. Don't do that. C:  Yes, exactly. We're here as a resource so you should always feel comfortable reaching out to your agent about anything that is publishing and work related. That, at least, you should always feel comfortable doing. They might set the parameters of how to do that. Is it okay to just call them ay any time, or do they prefer email? Do they give you their number so you can text them? Depends. I mean, I know many agents prefer not to do that which I think is absolutely a good idea but I'm sure that there are some that are perfectly comfortable with it. So you know, having that conversation beforehand and finding what their preferred system is so that you know whether it's compatible with your preferred system, that's really the key. K: Gotcha. So, we had kind of also talked about this briefly, but one of the other questions we wanted to talk about is, and I'm gonna kinda combine two things here: what catches your eye in query letters, in authors that are querying you, and at the same time, what are some red flags? C: So, what catches my eye, I think'd be a little like what I talked about before, something that really speaks to me personally and actually addresses things that I have specifically said that I'm looking for. Anything that is particularly really unique, like actually finds a way to give me an unexpected twist within the pitch itself. I'm also.. I do really appreciate comp titles that kind of combine, you know, taking two very very disparate comps and combining them to say "here are two things that are nothing alike but if you combined them, that's my book." Then you can get a sense of, "Oh, here is something really new and unique." I once got a query that said it's Jane Austin's Emma meets Dexter. And then.. K: Oh! C: Yeah, and then the plots came out, like, Yes, that makes sense! But getting that, those kind of comp titles, I went, "That is very interesting and I want to learn more." So, you know, it's.. comp titles don't have to be like that but they can be a very interesting way to condense a unique aspect of your book into one creative, short pithy pitch. In terms of red flags, I think it's often a, like I said before, very clear not understanding of their genre or the type of book I'm looking for if they very clearly have misunderstood, not just the genre per se, but something say, comes in and is pretty heavily misogynistic in a certain way or something that just, like, if you check my social media, I'm very clearly not interested in works that are, you know, a certain way, even if they are science fiction or fantasy. And then, also I would say another huge red flag is authors who feel the need to attack other authors or existing books for a genre in their query letter. K: Oh really?
C: that is never good. don't be that person. K: No. C: Yes, I've definitely those books that come in say, "Well, this book was terrible," or "Nothing in YA is good anymore," or, "Twilight was terrible!" K: Oh my god. C: Don't be that person. That's... you know, don't attack other authors in your query. It's not a good look. K: I'm making this face right now because I have read so many query letters and I have never seen that.  C: Really? K: That's like. now see, watch.. cause we're open for submissions now so I'm gonna get like ten of those. Now that I've said that but like, oh my god, wow. I thought I'd seen everything. That's a new one. Okay. R: Actually that comes up on Twitter a lot. I see a lot of agents saying "Please don't do this. You know, don't insult J K Rowling because you think that will make your book sound more intelligent. It doesn't." K: It doesn't and I mean, you know. Come on, Harry Potter. R:  Regardless of whether you like it, it was very successful. An agent wouldn't mind a Harry Potter. C: And it sets yu up as a person who is going to be not someone who plays ball with the industry if you're going to be someone like that then that doesn't send a good message about the type of person you're going to be in terms of how you interact with other authors and publishers. and the fact is other authors: those are your peers, those are your support network. you need other authors because their success is your success. And their blurbs are how you get found and you all have to support each other and so if you're not going to be interested in doing that then you're probably not going to succeed in the book industry. K: I've done a couple things over the years and a question I get a lot is well you guys are like, you know a small independent press, and "yes, we are, it's a lot of fun," "So what about competition from this what about..." It's not like... it's not competition. People, I think. It's not the same as cheering for a sports team. You don't love one team and therefor their failure is other teams' success. People who love and read these genres of books are just going to keep looking for more things to read. So everyone succeeding you know especially in similar veins that you're working in, that's great for you as an author because that means more people might come across your book as a result of that. C: Exactly. K: But it is very interesting when you look at these and you're evaluating if you think you can work with this person. Can I help no only them but like, I need to be successful here. Your author's success is the agent's success but you still have to work within the industry and you still have to be able to put together and sell a book at the end of the day and if you're presenting yourself in a way that's gonna make your agent think "I'm not sure I can do this with this person" that's gonna drive them away.  R: We talk a lot about querying an agent for the first time, creating a new relationship with them, but frequently, especially in genre fiction, book deals are for more than one book. So once you have entered into like the second in a series or the second book that's been optioned as part of the same contract, does your relationship change with the author at all? C: Um, yes, so it's very much, I think, it depends from agent to agent but for me, I'm very much willing to work with authors as early as they have pitch ideas. So they will come to me with, you know, ideas, with early drafts, and I'll be definitely working on things much earlier than I would be than a query. So, obviously, when you query your manuscript should be as close to final as you can possibly make it. You should have already had some beta readers, you should have already done editing, and so at that point the hope is that it will only take a few more rounds with an agent before it's ready to go on submission. Obviously for your second or third book, and books after that, that's necessarily not the case. So yes, I am seeing much earlier drafts. I have worked on books that are completely rewritten from scratch multiple times before going to the publisher ad also part of it is deciding what the next book should be sometimes. So I've had clients where we look at their first book and where it fit in the market place, and their other book ideas, some of which might be very different from the first book, and others might be in between and we say, "okay, how do you want to be positioned in the marketplace as your career? Do you want to be a YA author or do you want to be an adult author? Do you want to be a horror author or do you want to be a fantasy author? If you want to be both that's fine, but if you really feel strongly about one of these things, and you just happen to have one book idea that falls outside that parameter, then maybe we don't so that as the second book, maybe that's the third or fourth. Maybe that's an outlier book." So, figuring out how the author wants to be positioned in the marketplace and making sure that we are following a trajectory that will achieve that is part of what I help them do. K: That's something that I think a lot of people don't realize a lot of agents do is, basically helping the author come up with an identity. And how they're gonna fit into the marketplace, what they want to be known for. Yeah that's really interesting to think about as well. Anything that you wish people knew about literary agents? Any giant misconceptions you frequently come across? You know, obviously the stuff about the bloodletting is all ~true, but the rest of it? C: I think that the big thing I would  just... I really wish to share with people is that I promise we're not scary. It's... We're just people like you. We just love books, like you. I.. when I got to conferences there are so many people who are so scared and I just want to hug them and say, "No, it's okay, I promise.. there's nothing to be scared of." K: Wait, quick qualification. If you run into Caitlin at a conference do not walk up to her and hug her immediately. Ask first. C: Thank you. Fair. Thank you. Yeah, but I also there's just a I feel like there's a I don't wanna say a culture of self-rejection but there is.. I see a lot of self-rejection— K: Oh, yeah, absolutely. C: —on the internet and on social media and people will ask me, "Can I query you?" and I'm going, "Why are you asking me? Just do it. Just do it!" You know, alway always give it a shot and you know, we're just here because we love books and we want to help you succeed. Like we want authors to succeed. We want books to succeed. We're not out here saying no to books because we're up in a castle laughing at all of you. We really really want these books to succeed. We want to see more books that we love. And most of the time, when we reject something, it's with a heavy heart. It's, "I love this pitch but the writing just wasn't quite there yet, but man, I hope they come back to me with another project in a couple of years when they've really honed their skill and improved their writing." You know that's really where we're coming from is, "Not this one, but keep working at it. We're waiting for you to come back next time and really nail it." K: to everyone I hope hearing that is encouraging. I'm encouraged just listening to it and I'm not even querying an agent. Thank you so much for talking to us. This was really a lot of fun. I really enjoyed this conversation. C: Of course, well thank you for having me, it's been great.  K: So, where can people find you on the socials? C: I'm on most social media @literallycait that's c-a-i-t short for Caitlin, and on the Donald Maass website which is MaassAgency.com. R: Alright so is there anything else that you wanna tease for people, books coming out or anything like that? C: Sure I've got a couple really exciting books coming out over the next month or two. We've got The Resurrectionist of Caligo by Wendy Trimboli and Alicia Zaloga, which is very very exciting. Kind of dark Victorian-esque fantasy, which would be great for anyone who's a fan of the podcast Sawbones. If you're into that you'll definitely like this book. And I've also got The Library of the Unwritten, by A J Hackwith, which is K: Yes C: Fabulous Hell based fntasy about books that are unwritten escaping their library and going on walkabout and the librarion having to chase them down it's very fun and if you love books it really explores the concepts of narrative and character and what it means to have those elements and give them agency so it's a really it's a love letter to the concept of writing. It's fabulous. K: That one's on my list, I'm very excited for that one. C: Oh good. K: Okay, so. The take away here: Agents; they're people just like the rest of us. R: At least one is. K: One of them anyway. The rest are in the castle. R: Okay, thank you so much Caitlin, we really appreciate your time. C: Thank you. 31:34 [Music]
R: Thanks, everyone, for joining us for another episode of We Make Books. If you have any questions that you want answered in future episodes or just have questions in general remember you can find us on twitter @WMBcast, same for instagram, or WMBcast.com. If you find value in the content we provide, we would really appreciate your support at patreon.com/WMBcast. If you can't provide financial support, we totally understand, and what you could really do to help us is spread the word about this podcast. You can do that by sharing a particular episode with a friend who can find it useful, or if you leave a rating and review at iTunes, it will feed that algorithm and help other people find our podcast too. Of course you can always retweet our episodes on twitter.  Thank you so much for listening and we will talk to you soon.

Today we are going to talk about, how to find your fuck yeah friends. We all need them in our life. How do you find these friends?Welcome to Stand up 2 Sitting.Get your FREE Ultimate Elixir hereUse code LUPREFERRED19 at checkoutJeremy Abramson Website: www.e3lifestyle.comOn LinkedIn: click here to connectOn Instagram: @coachjeremy305Jeremy's 20/20 Mastermind Application:https://join.e3lifestyle.com/2020Is this your first podcast? If so then welcome to the community! If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast go ahead and do so. Check out past episodes of the show and be sure to check out my page on Instagram. Shoot me a line on any questions about past and future shows.Welcome to Stand up 2 Sitting.Email me at ja@e3lifestyle.com and send in that subject matter!Save 10% off Onnit Supplements (no code necessary)CLICK HERE15% off Swannies Blue Light Blocking GlassesSWANNIES BLUE LIGHT'SPromo Code: COACHJEREMYInstagramFacebookCome CLIMB!Learn more about Jeremy See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

In this episode, the guys reminisce about their best and worst concert going experiences. To this day, they remain one of the prime examples  of strange human behavior that would not be tolerated in any other setting.

in this episode we discuss Evil Dead, Bill and Ted & much more... we also ask the question: What's the most America a$$ game?

Matthew, Steve-O and Mark are back with an all new episode! We catch up on Mark’s birthday, Paranormal Ghost Shows, AZ Craft Brewers Guild and Nintendo Switch.

Matthew, Steve-O and Mark are back with an all new episode! We catch up on Mark’s birthday, Paranormal Ghost Shows, AZ Craft Brewers Guild and Nintendo Switch.

This podcast episode is from December 2016. Now my brother Ken has two cats of his own, Lucy and Jackson. When he comes home at Christmas and for a couple weeks in the summer, there are five cats in my mother's house! ---------- LnR 086 I call Ken (Replay) Nancy: Hey, Kenny, when did you (whendidja/whenja) get home? Ken: Oh, about two hours ago. N: Did you (didja) have a good drive? K: Yeah, no problems. I drove through Atlanta before their morning rush hour, so that was OK. The highways through Alabama and Mississippi were fine, too. It rained a little when I hit Arkansas, but not for long. N:That's good. Did you (didja) enjoy Mom's surprise? K: Yeah, that was so funny! I couldn't believe that Mom had gotten a new cat! I was so surprised! N: You've got to (gotta) send me some pictures. K: Yeah, sure will. N: Well, I'd better let you go (letcha) go. K: Yeah, it's getting late here. Almost time for bed. N: Sleep well. Tell Mom I love her. Love you, too. I'll call again on Christmas Eve.

62m Enlightened Abroad sits down with Ali, a millennial expat who loves to swear and tell it like is.  The best parts of this episode are the gems of Pakistan travel that I never knew were possible.  If you'd like to travel to some off-the-beaten-path spots, then listen in.   ~0'-2' Introduction We've been uploading weekly since March, and this episode comes in a week off, due to an 'unplugging' trip in India.  It would be great to share that, but some things are best kept to present moment experience.  So, please enjoy this free flowing conversation between two expats!  Oh, and Pakistan is now on the travel list - amazing tips.  Thanks, Expat Ali! Interview ~3' the origins of Mr. Drik ~5' Derek goes off his vegan kick in Jordan ~7' Ali tells how he started abroad ~10' Taiwan or Thailand - I guess I'll go teach... ~14' Taiwan tales ~19' the origin of 'The Floss' and plastic waste ~22' Derek gets answers from the millennial  ~25' the education system and hope for future ~31' back to Taiwan tales; the case for teaching kindergarten  ~36' the truth about friendships abroad  ~38' Pakistan tales truth v. reality + cool spots to visit  ~49' words you can't say, a bit late, 'c-word', etc. ~55' how to travel around India/Pakistan ~58' the US road trip and South American travels ~60' the magic of Machu Picchu     

Storyteller and Stand Up Comedian Liv Milano talks about her Hollywood life and it’s sometimes sexy in The Not So Sexy, Sexy Podcast with Liv Milano. Also discussed in Episode #16 F*%k Yeah Bring Out the Truffles: Thank You Digital Hollywood, I LOVE My Acting Class, Dinner in 90210, My Claws Are Out, Female Comedy Night Disasters, I HATE Life Coaches, Books I’m Reading. https://www.patreon.com/livmilano IG: @livmilano @thenotsosexysexypodcast www.livmilano.com Please Subscribe!

In today's episode we rant about politics talk about returning a stolen airsoft gun and AMERICA FUCK YEAH!! Instagram @Fleelavie @DearLifelessons Email: contactfleelavie@gmail.com DearLifeLessons@gmail.com Music: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk0IaUT9niw --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/dearlifelessons/support

This week were talking all things America and J1 related. Answering a few questions sent in about East vs West, accommodation, jobs and of course sharing a few funny stories of my own experiences. Enjoy x

This week we are joined by hilarious Paul Spratt. He recorded his Comedy Album F**k Yeah! Paul's here at New York Comedy Club. He loves to take time to donating to charity events, running, and working his own events for one of his favorite charities B4BC.org where he's raised over $10,000 for breast cancer. He's been on many comedy festivals around the country and has opened on the road for comics Dom Irrera, Dave Attell, and many more. Give it a listen, if you dig it. Subscribe! 

Why should you attend the Main Street Now Conference in Seattle, March 25-27, 2019? Should you attend even if you aren't a Main Street community? What other educational opportunities does the National Main Street Center offer?  Well, find out in this episode! GUEST INFORMATION: Name: Kelly Humrichouser Organization: National Main Street Center Title: Associate Manager of Education   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MainStreetNowConference/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/MainStreetsConf Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/natlmainstreet/ SHOW NOTE Kelly wanted me to be sure to note the following: The Main Street Now Conference is not possible without the hard work and support of our state-wide partners, including the Washington Main Street Program and Washington Trust for Historic Preservation (Seattle, 2019) and the Missouri Main Street Connection (Kansas City, 2018). SHOW TRANSCRIPT Megan Tsui: Hello, everybody. Today my guest is Kelly Humrichouser from the National Main Street Center, and I'm so excited to have Kelly on with me today to talk about National Main Street and the National Main Street Conference that's coming up in March in Seattle. So welcome, Kelly. Kelly Humrichouser: Thank you. Thanks for having me, Megan. Great to talk to you again. M: Yeah. I actually met Kelly when I was at a, what was it called - Historic Real Estate Certification Course through the National Development Center. Is that right? Did I get that right? K: Very, very close. We did the Historic Real Estate Finance Series Certificate Program offered through the National Development Council. And the Main Street America Institute was able to partner with the National Development Council to bring that content to Main Street managers and other historic real estate professionals. And, so yeah, we met in Des Moines and we were just in Atlanta a couple of weeks ago, and now we're here. M: Yeah, and I, that was probably the hardest class I've taken outside of, outside of, you know, college algebra. But I think it was so helpful and so good. And most people didn't think it was hard. So, it was just me. K: I thought it was hard too. I was very grateful that I was able to participate in the course and kind of be the coordinator for bringing that content through the institute to the group of people that we had with us. So it was like really wonderful because it’s really hands-on and you do have to do a lot of math. But at the end of the day, you're able to just understand so much more of the conversation around development in all these communities. M: Well that's what I was, that's why I went and why I decided that that was going to be an important thing and my, why my board said yes to the travel costs and things like that. But what was great is I got some scholarship money from, you want to talk about the scholarship opportunity? And then also the there was some travel cost reimbursement because we're a smaller Main Street. So just mention that quick because I want to make sure people know about that great resource. K: Yeah. We were able, through the support that we had from the 1772 foundation, to subsidize highly, highly, the cost of this course so that Main Street managers are able to participate. We know that two weeks during any year out of the office to do an in-person training that also has a cost admin training process associated, it's a lot, it's a lot for anybody to handle. So we highly highly subsidized the course through that partnership. And we were also able to provide a few travel scholarships to make it a lot easier for people to be in an AirBnB or a hotel for a week while they're kind of going out to these different communities. So, we do hope to be able to do that again in the future. Always kind of an interest from our network in that possibility. But just, you know, everyone that was involved. We're so grateful to the support of the 1772 Foundation and our partners at the National Development Council. That's something that, you know, we want to continue to work with them because they have such great knowledge on how economic development and real estate deals really work. M: Well and I, you know, as a small, you know Main Street organization, we wouldn't have been able to do it without those, that help. And so we really appreciate the National Main Street and the foundation, and the National Development Center, we’re able to collaborate and bring that all together and make it affordable so thanks for your efforts on that and everyone else's. And I think, would people be able to learn about those opportunities if they get on your mailing list? Because I believe that's where I saw it. K: Yeah absolutely. In fact, you know, specific to the educational opportunities, I would encourage anybody who's interested in future opportunities like that to email msai@savingplaces.org. I'm sure we'll put that in the details but msai@savingplaces.org is for the institute specifically and that will get you kind of on my list to tell you specifically about opportunities like this that you might be interested in. Generally, we encourage everybody to always pay attention to everything that you're receiving. If you're a Main Street Member or you're just interested in keeping up to date with our with our weekly news. There are so many opportunities that come through our regular mailing list as well. M: All right, we'll make sure to put that in the show note so people have a link to get to that easily. OK. So, that's how we met, that's how we got to know each other a little bit. We sat at the same table. We laughed a lot and I thought it would be so great for you to come on the podcast and talk about what National Main Street is and then what is the big conference that's coming up and why someone who is a Main Street Community, inside of Main Street Community, would want to attend. And then why somebody who isn't part of the Main Street Program yet might want to attend. So, let's get started. What, what is National Main Street? K: Yeah. The National Main Street Center, and some folks probably know it as Main Street America, are really kind of one and the same. So either way that you're using those terms, we're a national organization that supports commercial district revitalization across the country. Most people call the Main Streets in some other places, they might be neighborhoods, commercial districts, and larger urban areas. We're really focused on both. And we provide, you know, education training and networking opportunities. Our conference and the advocacy technical assistance, really, we tried to do a little bit of everything and hopefully, we do it successfully. So we've been around for about 40 years it was a program started by the National Trust for Historic Preservation in the late 70s, early 80s, to try to bring back life to places that were kind of disinvested. You know, when you started building more, new construction out towards highways and maybe downtowns, weren't seeing as much, as much of the action. And so, in the shopping mall era, a lot of, a lot of downtowns weren't thriving, and so this effort was started by the National Trust really for the preservation of buildings but also the community. And then it's grown into more of an economic development format. And so, it's a very interdisciplinary way to look at bringing life to downtowns, but it works and it works really well. So now we are an independent non-profit. Well we're still very closely partnered with the National Trust for Historic Preservation. But we try to bring tools to folks like yourself out in Red Wing and in communities across the country. M: Well, I think it's just about the coolest thing because, as you said, it does, it's comprehensive, and what a lot of people don't always see about their downtown is how it's such a mix of both residential, commercial, community, nonprofits, churches. There's just so many different things that happen in a lot of our downtowns and so to have a organization like the National Main Street Center understand that and then help us create a foundation and create a way for us to, you know, wear more boots on the ground, support that, is just, it's phenomenal. And I'm glad the organization is here and that it continues to get funded, and I hope it continues to because it's, it's economic development at the very heart of our communities. So, I love it. Okay, and what is your role there Kelly? K: Well, my role as, my title is Associate Manager of Education. And what that means for me on a day to day is that I manage programming for our Main Street America Institute. That's the program that we were talking about previously that was a partnership with the National Development Council but through the Main Street America Institute. The Institute is really a credentialing program for folks that are working in commercial district revitalization as Main Street directors or managers to hone their skills, to learn new skills, to kind of have a checkpoint for their competency as a Main Street Manager. And we offer a credential called the Main Street America Revitalization Professional Credential. That's kind of the pinnacle of achievement in our world right now, I believe. And it's a program that has been built upon a previous program that was offered through the Main Street Center called the Certified Main Street Manager Program. That program, you know, existed for about 20 years and kind of went through a hiatus period and now we've brought it back kind of as the Main Street America Institute. So we do online courses and workshops and in addition to that I also work on education through our conference, which I know we will talk much more about, but there are over 100 education sessions and special events, kind of other jazz. And then as with any nonprofit, you know, everybody has their other duties as assigned. So I hope I try to make myself helpful in other ways. But, you know, our team is varied and kind of constantly in kind of dynamic shifts and always everybody's kind of helping each other out. So just as with any, I'm sure, Main Street program our team is constantly doing a million things. M: Yeah. And yeah sometimes it's slow, sometimes it's crazy and you have to be ready to do it, step in. I think that's just the nature of the Main Street, I don't know, it's almost like you're the pathos of Main Street. K: Right. M: Jump in wherever you need to. K: Right, right, right. M: What's your background? How did you get started in this area of work? K: It's, you know, it's one of those circuitous paths, I think. My first job I think, I had a couple of jobs when I was like 16, and one was at a candy and gift shop on a Main Street in my town and the other was a soda fountain, like a historic soda fountain. I was like a soda jerk. M: Woah, you were like original, OG Main Street stuff right there. K: Right. Right. The soda fountain, I mean I loved the place. It closed, I think, in 2002 after 96 years in business. But it was really interesting back then to kind of see the little system that the downtown business owners and how everyone worked together and how they were working with the city when the city was trying to build a new development behind the Main Street and kind of understand all those dynamics. And at that time I heard about the Main Street program, but it kind of, I think, went over my head, like, I was like, “Oh, what? People do this as a, as a job.” That’s crazy, but, you know, I went to undergrad and took a course that was focused on historic preservation when I was a senior. I kind of got a job eventually after college. Got into a historic preservation program. And through that, and kind of very dynamic different circumstances, I was like, “Oh yeah, Main Street Center makes a whole lot of sense for me.” I had a background in some educational programming, so it really kind of came together. But yeah, it's something you, I don't know if anybody, really aims for that or if it's just kind of something that happens you know. M: Right, yeah, I don't know a lot of like, 16-year-olds are, like, “I can't wait to work on Main Street.” K: Right. Right. But maybe they should, right? M: We should change that. So you have a huge conference coming up here in March that I'm really excited for, for many reasons. Tell us about that. What's coming up? K: Yes. So every year we have the Main Street Now Conference. This is annually the largest national gathering of downtown revitalization professionals, Main Street managers. We've had, I think, last year we had more than sixteen hundred attendees. So we're actually expecting a bigger turnout this year. The conference is March 25th to 27th in Seattle, Washington. And Seattle is just such a cool destination. I can imagine that, you know, a real drop for some people, just being able to come out to the Pacific Northwest if you, if you haven't been before. But, you know, relative to the content, you know, like I said previously, we've got over 100 education sessions and some really cool special events planned. And you can still register, so you can register up until the day of the event if you, if you want to come out. But I would say for anybody who's listening, look at it fast because hotels are going quick and, you know, you want to make sure you get in there and plan your experience a little bit. M: Yeah, I can't wait. I mean the last year was my first conference. It was in Kansas City. And I had such an amazing time that it was just so great to be around other people like me. I mean other people who are, most people are outgoing. They're community-minded, and that doesn't just mean their community, it means the community of Main Street. And they're fun and curious and it just, it was such a great experience to be around all these people who love their Main Streets and love their downtowns just like I do. So, I can't say enough about that conference and how great it was. All the sessions I went to were very well done. The facility was amazing. It was just top notch. So, I love it. I am doing a couple of sessions there too. So I'm excited to, connect with some people in that way as well. So, what is the one session you think that is, you're most excited for people to take advantage of. I mean, besides mine! But what are the other ones? I have one in mind that I can't wait to go to, but I want to hear what yours is. Do you have one? K: You tell me about yours first so that we don't pick the same one, and it feels unethical for me to pick one. M: OK, fine I'll tell you. The one that I think I'm pretty excited for is the one about how to have dogs downtown. K: Oh that's so great! I've been communicating with Britin, who is the speaker there. She's got some excellent resources to bring and it is an issue that we, you know, we were like very excited when someone submitted on the topic because it is something that so many downtown programs need to deal with. I know, you know, my mom wants to bring her dog everywhere. M: Yeah, exactly. K: I'm like, how do we do this best? M: If you live in California, everybody does bring their dogs everywhere. They're in the grocery stores, they're in, they're not service dogs, they're just dogs. And so and I think it can be a competitive advantage for our community. I know there's, there's a community not far from here that's very small. And I mean I think they may have a couple hundred people. They still have a few historic buildings from their downtown and they just come alive in the summer and then they have you know the Dog Days of Stockholm, where they have a weekend where thousands and thousands of people come out with their dogs to this little town and just take over. And I just think it's brilliant. It's just such a great marketing strategy. So that's why I'm excited to hear about it. K: Yeah. That's a good pick. Like I say I feel a little bit, you know I don't want to steer too many, too many people in one direction or the other based on what I would think. I'm pretty excited for some of our kind of general sessions, so go ahead and plug those. We have Jim and Deb Fallows. They're authors of a book called Art Sounds. M: I didn't know that. K: Yeah, they're going to come on Tuesday morning for a general session discussion with our president and CEO Patrice Frye. So, we're very excited about that. They've been wonderful partners so far and so we're going to have their book and have a book signing as well, so we're excited about several of our general sessions. But I also want to say specifically, I'm excited this year. We have a focus on, leadership and partnerships. And so we've given a significant discount to civic leaders. We're talking elected officials and people in upper-level management positions of municipalities to attend the conference for an extremely reduced rate. And this is something, you know, we're gearing educational programming specifically for them. There's a luncheon hosted by our Board Chair, Ed McMahon, specifically for the civic leaders at the conference to learn how they can better support a Main Street program. And for them to really feel the value of the Main Street program in their communities. And that's really huge for us because we know that those partnerships are so important. And for some communities to have, kind of be the strength that they need at the table with their city team, it'd be really great if we could tell them a little bit more about all the possibilities that Main Street could bring. So we're really jazzed about that. M: That is so exciting because if you don't have, in my experience anyway, and even in the experience that I've seen in other towns in Minnesota if you don't have your city leaders on board, it's such an uphill battle. And so if you can get them to these sessions, get them to hear about the great work that Main Street does and encourage them to help support a membership to National Main Street and/or their state Main Street, what a huge effort that goes towards making it happen in the community. So thank you to the National Main Street Center for offering that discount because I think that is a game changer for a lot of, especially smaller communities. So thank you for that. K: Yeah we hope so. You know it's something that we hope it, it's a relationship that you could bring to the conference and then continue to grow from there so that it's not you know a one-stop event but really begins the discussion. M: Right. And I'm, you know, what I love about the conferences, it's things that are very practical. Those are the things that I'm talking about. I'm doing a session on hosting a retail challenge. How to fill vacant storefronts in your downtown. And then the other one is how to tell your downtown story with social media. So you'll come away with real actionable things that Main Street has actually done. It's not theoretical, it's very action oriented. And a lot of the sessions are like that, you know, my hand hurt last year from taking notes to really dive into all of the different presentations and ideas. But then you also learn about things like the topic of this, you know, what we just talked about, was, the leadership and the partnerships and building those kinds of things that kind of make having a main street and being a main street manager easier when you have those partnerships and collaborations. Those don't always, you can't, that is not a one size fits all. That's a lot of times, you know, there are personalities involved, there's different budgeting processes that are involved, etc. But you get to hear about how other people have done it and get inspired. So I think that's what I love about the conference the most, is, it's both higher level and then also nuts and bolts right down on the ground of what you can take back to your main street tomorrow and get working on. K: With that in mind I'm gonna plug one session that I think is a really, a great idea that has been proposed just for this conference and our state coordinator in Virginia, Rebecca Rowe, and Diana Schwartz, who is the Executive Director of the River District Association in Danville Virginia, are doing a session and we've scheduled it for kind of in the afternoon. But after the conference, how to make it happen. So the concept there is to bring together what you're learning because there are so many ideas. You're gonna have so many notes. And we do need to check in sometimes and really think like, how do you take this home and implement it. So if any session that I would individually plug, I'll give it to that one. M: That's a good one because it encompasses everything. It's very safe. Good job. K: Thank you. M: So if you are, I think it's pretty clear, we made pretty clear why if you're a Main Street Community, why you should attend. I think that's not necessarily hard to imagine the reasons why, but what if you aren't yet? What if you're Joe Blow or Jane Doe working in a community, working on downtown and stuff along your main street but you're not a member, why should you attend this? K: Yeah, that's such a great question. And I love it because, you know, so often we find that there's a perception out in the world that if you're not from a recognized, certified Main Street America community then this isn't for you somehow. And it actually, it is. We have folks from so many different fields: planners, architects, developers, government staff, as we were talking about before, and volunteers, board members, interested community members, always, I think, take away a lot from the conference as well.  It's always interdisciplinary content. It's issues that are not just for somebody who necessarily is managing the downtown. You could be a small business owner in the downtown and take a lot away from that session on pets on Main Street as well, you know. We also do offer credit for the American Institute of Certified Planners and the American Institute of Architects continuing education, so professionals from those fields, we are we are trying to make it easier for them to attend because it can be kind of a checking off a box or they need to have in their career path on their on this list. So we are doing that type of outreach, but this is a conference that's just about so much. It's about how communities work, and so if you're in a community and trying to make it work, which applies to just a myriad of types of people, then this is for you, you know. And then, as we talked about before, we have an emphasis on partnerships and we want to make sure that all of the partners at the table as well. So, you know, of course, that includes the elected officials and civic leaders that we were talking about, but it could include any type of partnership. I would also encourage a Main Street manager, think of the conference as something that you can also reach out to other folks in your town and encourage them to come with you, especially if there's some topic that you're trying to tackle together. This might be a great place to kind of get some ideas for it. M: That’s what I noticed last year is that there were some kind of groups from one community, and a lot of times it was the mayor, it was Member 2 from the Council, the main street manager, maybe the chamber director or, you know, so that just makes so much sense to come together. You get to go to different sessions or the same sessions if it's around something that you're out working towards and then come together and talk about what you learned. And so, it's just such a great way to learn and to expand and to be inspired. I will say what you bring up about planners, developers, architects. That is kind of a group that I don't assume, you know, would go to something like this, but yet they are the ones with the money. I mean, they're the ones with the connections to the developers and to investors and to the banks in their community, who've worked on projects, especially in historic preservation or with historic tax credits or whatever. And they're the ones that are visionaries, and so that's been a pleasant surprise for me. I mean, the other group I kind of assumed would go that makes sense but this other group of, those other kinds of professionals, it's been such a pleasant surprise for me to meet them and learn more about how they're working inside Mean Streets. And I just can't say enough about how wonderful it is to have that opportunity at the National Main Street conference to connect to one another and to figure out where those resources lie. So that's another benefit I think that may not be as obvious. K: Yeah, Absolutely. M: Yeah. So if you were going to give a piece of advice to a Main Street manager or someone who's working hard in their downtown to revitalize it, what advice would you give them? K: Well, I think from my perspective and the perspective of our team at the National Main Street Center, it's to really make sure that, you know, if you are a Main Street member that you are taking full advantage of your membership. There are so many ways to do so. Through a Main Street America membership, you have access to webinars, resources, a really great discount to the Main Street America Institute program for some professional development. We have so many guides and so many kinds of hard copy resources and they're really interactive at this point. You know, we're always interested in hearing back from folks and updating our resources to make them applicable in various situations. And then just in the past year, we've also launched something called The Point, which is a member network based through our membership system. It really allows for interaction, and people hold really great dialogue there. And there's no, there's no greater resource than your peers. So I think that's what I would say to anybody who is currently a member is to really make sure that you are getting everything that you can out of your membership. And very self-serving, think about the Main Street America Institute. We have some really great courses and we're always developing more. There's great opportunities there. But if you're not a Main Street member, if you're looking at this again from that perspective of, I'm not, you know, part of this kind of accredited network, you know, how can I participate? We have a general membership. You don't have to be part of your statewide program in order to join us as a community. And we also have a new membership format that’s called Friends of Main Street. If you are out there and you're just kind of interested, you want to know more about it. Friends on Main Street is kind of a low-cost entry-level way just to make sure you're receiving our conference discounts and, you know, weekly updates from the National Main Street Center so that you are aware of opportunities of, you know, resources and it's not a huge commitment up front. So we're always happy to talk more about, more about membership. I know my colleagues who specifically work on membership will be like, "Yay! Questions!" But I really think, you know, the conferences is a huge part of this network every year so, the advice is also, attend the conference, make sure that your hand is cramping from all those notes and go home and make some changes. You know, we always talk about the main aspect of this work is really, you know, trying to find other great examples, from podcasts too, to duplicate and obviously have to consider the context of your own community when you're doing so. But this is all about trial and error sometimes with really great examples from other communities. And a lot of that can be found at the conference. And then, you know, there are those best practices that we want to get out there and we do that through all of our member resources, but again, really specifically the conference. M: Well, I think that you just wrapped it up very, very nicely and put a bow on it because I think that's exactly, you know, I think it's such a wonderful conference and I will hope to meet as many people as possible there this year. Last year I had a terrible cold. So I was I was just going through, but I can't wait this year to get there and get to the, I know there's some parties and some networking opportunities that I am looking forward to as well. So, and I'm assuming that you're all there and ready to answer any and all questions at the conference.   K: Oh, yes. So as an attendee at the conference, you can always find information at our booth in the exhibit hall or through the registration table if you ever have questions. We want to make it accessible to you as possible. I will say it's really highly recommended to make sure that you download the mobile app, it's available through our website, in advance of attending, so that you're all set to go once you arrive. We'd love it if you took a look at the schedule in advance and kind of planned out where you thought you might want to be so that you have a better sense of, you know, what sessions you want to attend, and you are not scrambling then. And make sure to read through kind of some of the session descriptions and just plan your experience a little bit. I'll also say, Seattle has great public transit. Don't feel like you have to take a cab from the airport. The train is great. M: That is a good hint because I think it's it's a busy downtown from what I understand, and the conference is located in a great spot, so hopefully people will have lots of ease getting around. I can't wait to see Seattle. Never been there. It's definitely been a place on my bucket list. And so I just can't wait. I'm ready for it to get here, plus it's, you know, very, very chilly here in Minnesota and in Chicago where Kelly is, and so I am just trying to think happy, warmer thoughts and anywhere else in the country than here at the moment. M: Well, thanks so much Kelly. I really appreciate you coming on and talking about National Main Street, the conference, and all of the great resources that are available to folks who care about their downtowns. And I appreciate that you said, you know, it's really all about a big borrowing and stealing from each other. And one of the things I love about Main Street that I have not found in other areas that I've worked in is that no one hoards information or good ideas. It's almost like, we can't wait to share what's worked in our downtown. There just is not a sense of competition at the Main Streets that I've ever encountered. So, you know, instead of trying to recreate the wheel or, you know, try to think of ideas that are outside the box on your own and get started and learn the hard way, you can learn from other people and what they've, been through. And you mentioned The Point, which is part of the National Main Street Center's website. I love that I just kind of, you know, got really dug into it just a few weeks ago, and I thought, “Oh, my gosh! Where has this been for the last couple of years.” It's people who have sample documents and sample marketing pieces and good ideas about contacts and all sorts of things that, in that, I'm sure I'm not doing it justice. But that's a great resource. What I will do is in the show notes make sure to put links to everything we talked about, so links to how to register for the conference, links to your email if people want more information about the institute and what they can sign up for in there, or other information they might need and make sure that people know how to get connected to you. K: Excellent. Well, I look forward to speaking to people and seeing everyone at the conference. I apologize in advance if you see me and I'm in running shoes and scrambling by, but feel free to say hello. M: Awesome! I mean, I did not know there were sixteen hundred people last year. And that's a pretty good testament to a well-run conference because sixteen hundred people could feel like a massive amount of chaos, and it did not feel that way, Kelly. It was amazing. So you did a great job and your team is stellar at this, they are obviously pros. So I can't wait for this year to have even more folks be able to come and share all the great stuff about Main Street. So, thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it. And we'll see you in Seattle. K: Excellent. Thank you, Megan. M: All right. Thanks, Kelly.

In this weeks episode, Daniel and his brother Chris join in from Oklahoma for a freedom filled Fourth of July episode. We talk about the most American things we've done, the true American pastime, American food (or lack there of), our national anthem, and America colonizing space because whats more American than colonization?  WEBSITE TWITTER INSTAGRAM

Journey to Planet Phantos as Sarah narrates “The She-Demon of Phantos,” a Gynocentrist episode full of portals, slaves, and Bonnie Raitt plus the only appearance of Lizard-Man and Strong-Arm.

TRANSCRIPT:Katie: Can you start us off and talk about what does safety get sold as in the service system today?Tim: They're selling us an idea of safety that nothing will ever happen to us. And what they're doing is they're trying to provide a cover for families and communities to say, “Great you've got it take care of it thank you.” We just kind of believe that there's a balance. That there are some services that can provide some degree of safety. But we just don't believe that that's the only form. And that's where we have the question of well, “Who's got my back? Who's making it more safe for me and with me?” And the thing we think about at Starfire it's a great quote is that safety comes from the presence of many capable, caring glances. We need to be in the presence of a bunch of people that know us and see us and love us. And that'sActually what keeps us safe it's not the locks on the doors it's not the security systems it's not the management requirements of the Medicaid system or the policies of the group home or the day program or the segregated farm that says they're going to do this that or the other. None of those things actually provide true safety.K: Yeah, I mean if we all wanted to live in the safety that people with disabilities have to live in, which is the safety of basically the State and policies, it would look like a military state. You know, it would look like people going, patrolling up and down the streets and us having to lock our doors at a certain time and all of us being sort of trapped in this really sterile, scheduled out environment and nobody would want that.T: It's always safer with more people.K: Yeah.T: So that's the design of Starfire's work that's intentional. That true safety comes from a form of love or a form of affection and care. It's a shared obligation, it's a reciprocal relationship. I look out for your best interest because I care about you. And you look out for mine because you care about me.K: So… in front of me is a book called christmas and purgatory and I'm going to read a quote. It says, “Some of mankind's most terrible mistakes have been committed under the spell of certain magic words or phrases.” This book is filled with graphic and disturbing pictures of an institution. I'm bringing this book into the conversation because it shows us the worst of mankind of what can happen when we follow the lure of ‘safety' over community.IMAGES FROM CHRISTMAS IN PURGATORYT: Well, the book Christmas in Purgatory has always been powerful to me because it is, as you put it, graphic. And it's also kinda interesting, at least from my perspective, some of the pictures rhyme with the pictures I see even today. In services for people and in the form of our services. It's not as bad, so that book shows people naked in rooms with dozens of other people without any kind of toileting or any kind of cleanliness. It's a really horrific kind of doral kind of essay on what was happening to thousands and millions of people with disabilities. But if you took just the form of it, people in rooms without much purpose, you'd largely see that very much alive today. The same pattern is still happening in day programs and workshops and group homes for people with disabilities. That's really, I think very dangerous because it's almost like it's repackaged, it's the same pattern but it's got some new color to it and then we buy it. We're giving them a version of the Christmas in purgatory support system which is here's some walls that will largely keep out the monsters that we're telling you that live outside of here but they're still sitting there in a room with each other doing nothing that leads them outside of those walls. We're not in the presence of these safe, caring, loving glances. We are at the real kind of mercy of the wardens of the institution, so to speak.K: So are you saying that we haven't designed anything really new out of the institution? We just kinda designed smaller, prettier institutions when we closed down places like Willowbrook?T: That's my perspective.K: It seems like the intentions are maybe better this time around.T: I think we are evolving. Like I do think that people are trying to recreate somewhat of a better mousetrap. It's just still a trap and now we're stepping into a space in time where our our laws are starting to say, ‘Well are these kinds of places the same as the institutions?' and people are largely saying, ‘Yeah, they are in function and in form.' So it doesn't matter the intention of whether or not, it's still based on a design and that design is still based on some assumptions that people with disabilities are a them, are a collective group of people. And that's a dangerous thing because then everybody's identity is lost. Most people with disabilities that I am aware of and hear about and talk to are in real danger of having no purpose as a citizen of their community. They are simply a client of nonprofits and governmental services and their entire purpose is lost to the world. And I think that's a big danger that I think Starfire raises and says: ‘What about this person's purpose? Why was this person born? And what's the role of the family in a community to discover that, and what's the role of the support system, service system to nurture that experience?'And I don't think that it's bad to have a collaboration between service system and families and community. It's for me, from my perspective, it's over weighted toward just the services system and then a person with a disability almost gets kind of sent to this place or places that are gonna serve them and if it's just to captivate them and keep them safe in our building, the shared purpose becomes clienthood. It becomes we all are in this building because we all have some sort of need that's been defined by our medical records or our doctor's evaluation. So volunteerism could be we discover purpose together as citizens and that's what would build that kind of safety net of relationships that well I look out for you because I care about your purpose and I care that your gift to the world would be missing if you weren't here.The biggest danger from my perspective is nobody's talking about this. We say “it's their choice to be segregated” and in that case let ourselves off the hook for even addressing the complexity of the issue. I think that's why Starfire's story is so powerful. It's just more honest. We're talking about the complexity of things versus selling everybody on the idea that we can solve all your problems.The most egregious examples I have of people with disabilities being in trouble is where there were very few people looking out for them. There was a woman who was being prostituted. She had $100,000 a year in services and the services couldn't stop her from being prostituted. Another person I know lit a cup in fire in his group home and spent two years in State Penitentiary. He again, had a big waiver, big bunch of money behind him that the service system and a bunch of nonprofits, including Starfire. Both these cases lined up and said we'll keep you safe. We had three people that I always kind of paired together that came to our dances and our outings. One young man's mother shot him up with morphine then shot herself up. She's still alive but she's in jail for the rest of her life and her son is dead. Another young woman would come to our dances and our outings and her mom laid her down in bed and shot her in the head and shot herself in the head and both of them are dead. Another mother stabbed her daughter who was autistic and then stabbed herself and set the house on fire. All three of those people came to our outings and our programs. They all participated in our dances. They all went bowling with us.And I'm sure it's more complicated than any of us know. But my question has always been did we fail them by not bringing in more people into that story? By telling them that our dances and outings were gonna answer all of their hopes and dreams and fears, did we take away the complexity and did we let ourselves off the hook for actually inviting in those capable glances that would have said, “Hey it seems like you're not doing so good, could I spend an afternoon with your daughter or could you and I take a walk and just talk about it?” How do we grow a safety net of relationships – versus services?K: A safety net that looks more like love? Outside of the service system, outside of a volunteer saying, “Let's go on an outing together and sort of not taking them as seriously as a true friend. When families can see that, ‘Hey my son or daughter is loved,' that creates safety.T: I think that if I fear being rejected, it's largely because I've had that experience before right? And we know that people with disabilities are rejected a lot of ways throughout their lives. So are their families and if we don't acknowledge that. Then we ask the question of how do we mitigate against that rejection? How do we build less rejection? That would be really good work but to simply say we're gonna protect you from ever having to worry about rejection doesn't actually get at the antidote to rejection. It just takes away the possibility of the hurt coming.K: Let's address the idea that people with disabilities often need support. Not every person with disabilities has the same needs or challenges but across the board there is a need for support that might look like a staff person, right? I think that what we're saying here is not to say that someday that the community will replace every need for the service system. Is that right?T: I don't want anyone to ever think that a friend is going to replace paid support or a friend's gonna replace family. However, we can't think the service system is the sole system of support. We have to believe that some people can learn ways to support each other outside of services. So for example, if someone needs a feeding tube, that might lay outside the technical expertise or even something that would be unsafe. We wouldn't want me to change someone's feeding tube, I could easily cause an infection or harm to that person. However, there are lot of things we could do together that don't require me changing a feeding tube. The problem is services own every aspect of a person's life. I always ask families, ‘Were you trained to have a kid with a disability or did they just fall into your lap?' They say we just learned. So family members are just citizens that learned the role of caregiver, so that means other citizens can learn. I just don't like discounting the possibility that citizens can learn these things. So services have to be more creative and individualized so they can consider each individual's design question. What is the design question that arises from this person's life? Or their purpose. How might we help support facilitate that is an individualized design question? They also have to assume that someone from the community should and could be in this person's life in a variety of different ways and the service workers have to own their own limitations.K: One of the last quotes here in the Christmas at Purgatory book says, “The greatest discovery of my generation is that human beings can alter their lives by altering their attitudes of mind.” I think that is a big part of what we're talking about. If we keep the same mindsets we're gonna continue to pump out the same story, which is an old story of people with disabilities.T: I think people can do what they want. If they want to recreate the outings or they want to recreate day programs. It's a free country, right? Nobody can stop them, and yeah there might be people that say that's a great idea for me or my family member. I mean those just aren't the people we're working with. We are working with people that say, “I thirst for a future and I believe in that future, and I'm willing to work with you.”K: How should people change their mindsets about safety? What is the sort of underlying thing you think that needs to just shift?T: I think they just have to start getting out there and meeting people. I think they have to start really believing that there are about thirty people out there that are going to be their future best friends that they haven't met yet. And the only way to meet them is to start meeting them, and then the only way to get them to be best friends is to start investing in those people. And then just believe in it and act like you believe it and sure enough it becomes true.K: Cool. Anything else?T: It's complicated isn't it?

Episode Eleven of the soon to be acclaimed podcast; Beers, Beats and Battlestar Galactica featuring Leesa Charlotte and Melia Rayner. Twitter/Instagram @beersbeatsbsg beersbeatsbsg@gmail.com

Summary: The lads welcome the summer with some of their best memories of summer. Plus, they make a shocking and frankly, haunting discovery about Jess. In the Studio: Dan Ken Critter Special Guest: Jess Callac Cocktail du Jour: Bug Juice - 4 Parts Absolut Mandarin - 2 Parts Passoã - 7 Parts Pineapple Juice Just mix all ingredients together with ice. It's kind of a party style booze drink, so serve in a crystal punch bowl if your fancy as fuck, or mix in a giant Gatorade container if you don't give a fuck. Quote du Jour: Coop: Do you really love Katie? Andy: Not really. Coop: Because I really love her man. And if you have one ounce of decency. you will do the right thing and let her go Andy: No way! Coop: No way? Andy: Fuck no dude, she's hot. In fact, fuck off. Coop: I will not Fuck off. Your making a really big mistake buddy. Because that women is not your play thing Andy: Coop, seriously fuck off. Sick of talking about this with you. Coop: GOD! Coop and Andy - Wet Hot American Summer Charity: Songs For Kids Foundation: www.songsforkids.org/ Links: Facebook – www.facebook.com/wympodcast Twitter – twitter.com/wymshow – @wymshow iTunes – itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/watch…d1065059804?mt=2 Sound Cloud –@watchyourmouthpodcast Stitcher – www.stitcher.com/podcast/watch-your-mouth-podcast Spreaker – www.spreaker.com/show/watch-your-mouth-podcast Merchandise – www.cafepress.com/wymmerch

Summary: The lads have a special guest...Becca Rainier from Pandorium Dance Company! They also talk Black Magic. Not like the witchcraft kind, but the booze and cake kind. In the Studio: Dan Ken Critter Special Guest: Becca Rainier - http://www.pandoriumbellydance.com/ Cocktail du Jour: Black Magic - 3/4 oz Kahlua - 1 1/2 oz Vodka - 1 Dash Lemon Juice or one squirt for that shitty plastic lemon thing. Add all ingredients to a shaker, shake well, and strain into a glass with fresh ice. Quote du Jour: Jack - Do not sabotage me. (Miles scoffs) Jack - You want to be a fucking lightweight, then that's your call. Do not sabotage me. Miles Raymond - Aye aye Captain. You got it! Jack - If they want to drink Merlot, we're drinking Merlot. Miles Raymond - No, if anyone orders Merlot, I'm leaving. I am NOT drinking any fucking Merlot! Jack and Miles Raymond - Sideways Intro/Outro music from Haggis Rampant’s new album, “Burly!” Charity: Fisher House Foundation - www.fisherhouse.org Links: Facebook – www.facebook.com/wympodcast Twitter – twitter.com/wymshow – @wymshow iTunes – itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/watch…d1065059804?mt=2 Sound Cloud –@watchyourmouthpodcast Stitcher – www.stitcher.com/podcast/watch-your-mouth-podcast Spreaker – www.spreaker.com/show/watch-your-mouth-podcast Merchandise – www.cafepress.com/wymmerch

Twelve games into the 2016 season, it’s not easy to remember that the Los Angeles Rams were the franchise to first wed pro sports with Hollywood allure. Losers of 7 of their last eight games, embroiled in quarterback and coaching controversies, and demonstrating the least glamorous style of play imaginable, the Rams are utterly bereft of star power. But, the premiere of E!’s latest reality series “Hollywood and Football,” Rams fans can finally experience some razzle-dazzle from their team—even if it comes from off-the-field. On this episode of the Greatest Show on Grass, we recap episode one of the Rams new primetime show and celebrate the ways that Kenny Britt’s wife Sabrina steals the show. Plus, Joshua Neuman and Tunisha Singleton discuss the Rams loss to the New England Patriots at Foxboro, the head-scratcher that is Jeff Fisher’s 2-year contract extension, and this Sunday’s game against the Atlanta Falcons at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum.

We begin this Fourth of July episode of Drunk Ex-Pastors by revisiting the question of whether the shrill, poorly-dressed, and not-even-that-hot presidential candidate Hillary Clinton is treated unfairly because she’s a woman (while Donald Trump apparently faces no media scrutiny whatsoever). We then address the topic of violent intervention in global conflicts (as in, should America do this because it is the right thing to do, or just keep doing it only when it is profitable?). After our mid-show break we continue with the theme of patriotism by discussing such topics as colonization, the Tea Party, and Brexit/Texit (yes please to the latter): Is some measure of civil authority necessary? What about spiritual authority? Where does it end? And is patriotism healthy or kind of chilling? And finally, our “Feeding Friendsy” segment reminds us how reliant on the Bible George Washington would have thought America to be if he had actually said all the stuff that’s attributed to him by the Internet. Also, as soon as Texas secedes we should build the most ironic wall ever along its northern border.

On today's show, we talked about the following: Batman may dominate in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice Zack Snyder says Ant-Man is a "flavor of the month" compared to Batman and Superman Kate Mara hasn't seen Fantastic Four Mallrats 2 gets its mall and will be shooting in January 2016 Preacher to get a full season from AMC Stephen Amell and Stardust raise $297K with t-shirt sales for charity Mike's theory on Fear the Walking Dead Green Lantern celebrates its 75th anniversary and Mike picks his favorite arcs Michael J Fox to reprise Marty McFly in LEGO Dimensions Pokémon Go! to be released for Android and iOS next year Big thanks to WWE legend, Savio Vega (@saviovega on Twitter) for the intro to this week's show. Congrats once again to him for being included in this years edition of WWE 2K16, available for PS4 and Xbox One! Follow us on Twitter: 
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Derek Reckley is an Actor originally from Indiana and now living in LA, California. His alter ego has seen him become known as "D - BONE" and he has had a lot of comercial success with his unique style and authentic message. Ever since he declared "I am an Actor" 11 years ago, decided to start saying "F**K YEAH" to life, everything changed and he has not looked back! Having recently become a father, Derek is on a quest to bring Manliness back, Rock & Roll back and more men like Charles Bronson & Magnum P.I.  A real refreshing and entertaining look on life to get your week started, enjoy! @MFnDBone

Colette, Mike and Scott preview the upcoming Big Brother Season, including the “America F**k Yeah” twist!

'Hear English' is a blog that provides podcasts and transcripts to help people learn English, find us at http://hearenglishhere.blogspot.com/.free image courtesy of 'stockfreeimages.com'The Water Cooler They may look like busy professionals, but the staff at Colourful Solutions Ltd (Colsol), aren’t always as serious or hardworking as they appear, and we find out what mischief they’ve been up to as they talk around the water cooler.Click above to listen.  You can get the mp3. here (opens in a new window)Episode 1 - The 4 o' Clock Cake Break(first published in "the AngloKlaxon", free sound effects courtesy of 'Soundjay.com')Susan: Good morning.Keith: Hi, I’m Keith, you must be the new girl in accounts.  Susan isn’t it?S: Yes, that’s me.K: How’s your first day been so far?S: Oh not bad, just getting to grips with the new computer system, meeting everyone, finding where everything is and doing the admin.K: You’ll be settled in in no time.  What firm were you at before?S: I was at Pierson’s as an accounts assistant.K: Which means that this is a bit of a promotion?S: Yeah, it’s a lot more responsibility. I’m a bit nervous, but I’m looking forward to getting stuck in.  The team seems nice.K: They’re really good guys, generally, but there are one or two practical jokers.S: Anyone I should watch out for? K: You’ll figure them out pretty soon.  I’m sure you’ll be fine as long as you stick to the office traditions.  Which reminds me: what cake did you make?S: Cake?K: Yeah, one of our oldest traditions is that when someone new starts they bring in something for the four o’ clock cake break.  Didn’t anyone tell you?S: No, they didn’t mention that.K: Oh dear.  Well, it’s not the end of the world; you’ve still got time to buy one.  I doubt anyone will mind too much that it’s not home-made, just so long as you’ve made the effort.  Well, I ought to get back to work, see you later.Later that day…Janet: Keith?K: Yes Janet? J: Can I have a word?K: Actually I was just about to…err…J: It won’t take a second.K: Err, ok.J: I’ve just had Susan asking me where the nearest bakery is so that she can buy something for the four o’ clock cake break.  Do you know anything about this?K: Err…No.J: Because she said she was glad you told her because she didn’t want to get on the wrong side of the staff on her first day by coming in empty-handed.K: Ah yes, it might have been me who told her.J: But Keith, we don’t have a four o’ clock cake break.K: No, but I thought it might be good for moral if we started to have one.J: She seemed under the impression that we always had one.K: Maybe she misunderstood what I said.J: Was it also a misunderstanding that made her believe that by tradition, as the new employee, it was her who had to buy the cakes? K: Well…what is a tradition anyway?  It’s just something that happens because it’s always happened.  They all have to start sometime, it’s just a coincidence that this tradition has started now…J: Keith?K: Yes Janet?J: You will apologise to Susan and pay her back for the cake.K: Yes Janet.J: And leave her alone for pity’s sake, it’s the poor girl's first day.Water Cooler NotesIt was her who had to buy the cakes - this is grammatically incorrect, it should be "it was she who had to buy the cakes", but it is a mistake that is often made.Ltd – abbreviation for ‘limited’, it refers to the way a business is set up.  If ‘ltd’ follows a company name, it means it is a private company limited by shares or by guarantee.  This basically means that if the company owes money that it can’t pay and goes into debt, the shareholders and owners are not liable for the debt, their liability is limited, and they won’t have to pay the debt.In accounts – in the accounting department of the firm.  Office workers often shorten job titles in this way, such as ‘repro’ instead of ‘reprographics’ (the photocopying department), or ‘archives’ instead of ‘the archiving department’.  People, especially professionals, sometimes introduce their job in this way saying ‘I’m in banking’ rather than ‘I am a banker’ or ‘I work in banking’.Getting to grips – learning how to use.    Admin – short for administration, it means red-tape, or paperwork.Be settled in – be comfortable in a new environment, such as a new house, or new job.Promotion – a higher position or rank (usually with better pay).Getting stuck in – starting to work hard.Practical joker – someone who plays tricks on people to make them look foolish.It’s not the end of the world – it’s not a really bad situation.Made the effort – tried to do something.Can I have a word? – Can I talk to you? (although this is a question, often it is a rhetorical question, a question that does not require an answer, and is just a way of getting someone’s attention).Coincidence – an accident where two unrelated things occur at the same time.Leave her alone – stop bothering her.For pity’s sake – a way of expressing annoyance or anger without swearing or blaspheming (these are called ‘minced oaths’), such as ‘for crying out load’