Podcast appearances and mentions of john mcfarlane

Un jeune avoué, M. John McFarlane, sollicite l'aide de Sherlock Holmes. Sur le point d'être arrêté par l'inspecteur Lestrade, il se dit faussement accusé du meurtre de James Oldacre, entrepreneur célibataire et retraité, qui voulait faire de lui son héritier. À la suite d'une soirée prévue pour mettre la dernière main à cet étrange testament, on a découvert les restes calcinés d'Oldacre près de sa maison de Norwood. Le témoignage d'une servante, une canne oubliée, l'empreinte sanglante d'un pouce, tout semble incriminer l'infortuné McFarlane..."Sherlock Holmes - Les enquêtes" un podcast Studio Minuit. Retrouvez nos autres productions :Paranormal : Histoires vraiesSurvivants : Histoires vraiesLes Zéros du Crimes : Histoires vraiesCrimes : Histoires vraiesEspions : Histoires vraies Morts Insolites : Histoires vraies Meurtres en France : Histoires vraiesSoutenez ce podcast http://supporter.acast.com/sherlock-holmes-les-enquetes. Voir Acast.com/privacy pour les informations sur la vie privée et l'opt-out.

Un jeune avoué, M. John McFarlane, sollicite l'aide de Sherlock Holmes. Sur le point d'être arrêté par l'inspecteur Lestrade, il se dit faussement accusé du meurtre de James Oldacre, entrepreneur célibataire et retraité, qui voulait faire de lui son héritier. À la suite d'une soirée prévue pour mettre la dernière main à cet étrange testament, on a découvert les restes calcinés d'Oldacre près de sa maison de Norwood. Le témoignage d'une servante, une canne oubliée, l'empreinte sanglante d'un pouce, tout semble incriminer l'infortuné McFarlane..."Sherlock Holmes - Les enquêtes" un podcast Studio Minuit. Retrouvez nos autres productions :Paranormal : Histoires vraiesSurvivants : Histoires vraiesLes Zéros du Crimes : Histoires vraiesCrimes : Histoires vraiesEspions : Histoires vraies Morts Insolites : Histoires vraies Meurtres en France : Histoires vraiesSoutenez ce podcast http://supporter.acast.com/sherlock-holmes-les-enquetes. Voir Acast.com/privacy pour les informations sur la vie privée et l'opt-out.

Un jeune avoué, M. John McFarlane, sollicite l'aide de Sherlock Holmes. Sur le point d'être arrêté par l'inspecteur Lestrade, il se dit faussement accusé du meurtre de James Oldacre, entrepreneur célibataire et retraité, qui voulait faire de lui son héritier. À la suite d'une soirée prévue pour mettre la dernière main à cet étrange testament, on a découvert les restes calcinés d'Oldacre près de sa maison de Norwood. Le témoignage d'une servante, une canne oubliée, l'empreinte sanglante d'un pouce, tout semble incriminer l'infortuné McFarlane..."Sherlock Holmes - Les enquêtes" un podcast Studio Minuit. Retrouvez nos autres productions :Paranormal : Histoires vraiesSurvivants : Histoires vraiesLes Zéros du Crimes : Histoires vraiesCrimes : Histoires vraiesEspions : Histoires vraies Morts Insolites : Histoires vraies Meurtres en France : Histoires vraiesSoutenez ce podcast http://supporter.acast.com/sherlock-holmes-les-enquetes. Voir Acast.com/privacy pour les informations sur la vie privée et l'opt-out.

Un jeune avoué, M. John McFarlane, sollicite l'aide de Sherlock Holmes. Sur le point d'être arrêté par l'inspecteur Lestrade, il se dit faussement accusé du meurtre de James Oldacre, entrepreneur célibataire et retraité, qui voulait faire de lui son héritier. À la suite d'une soirée prévue pour mettre la dernière main à cet étrange testament, on a découvert les restes calcinés d'Oldacre près de sa maison de Norwood. Le témoignage d'une servante, une canne oubliée, l'empreinte sanglante d'un pouce, tout semble incriminer l'infortuné McFarlane..."Sherlock Holmes - Les enquêtes" un podcast Studio Minuit. Retrouvez nos autres productions :Paranormal : Histoires vraiesSurvivants : Histoires vraiesLes Zéros du Crimes : Histoires vraiesCrimes : Histoires vraiesEspions : Histoires vraies Morts Insolites : Histoires vraies Meurtres en France : Histoires vraiesSoutenez ce podcast http://supporter.acast.com/sherlock-holmes-les-enquetes. Voir Acast.com/privacy pour les informations sur la vie privée et l'opt-out.

Audrey McFarlane- Audrey is married to the man of her dreams John McFarlane, and they'll be married 21 years on 20th May. She attends the church of God of prophecy in Birmingham and ministers in her local community and beyond. Audrey is a licensed minister, registered author, and speaker. She enjoys playing her acoustic guitar and is learning to play keys. Tarnya Coley- Tarnya is a motivational speaker & personal development coach, trained by Les Brown. She is regarded as a respected and influential speaker. She has over 18 years' experience speaking on many platforms. She is known for transforming hundreds of women's lives globally. Tarnya is a publisher and self-published 4 times author. Her latest bestselling book, Plan it. See it. Anticipate it is a dynamite for goal setting and taking action.

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THIS SEASON’S THEME: FIRST FEATURESWelcome to episode 005. Ashley and Gary are joined by Scottish, Music Composer John McFarlane who has picked the hugely successful 'GET OUT' (directed by JORDAN PEELE) for us to discuss. Synopsis Now that Chris (Daniel Kaluuya) and his girlfriend, Rose (Allison Williams), have reached the meet-the-parents milestone of dating, she invites him for a weekend getaway upstate with Missy and Dean. At first, Chris reads the family's overly accommodating behavior as nervous attempts to deal with their daughter's interracial relationship, but as the weekend progresses, a series of increasingly disturbing discoveries lead him to a truth that he never could have imagined.‘LINKS IN CONVERSATION’ John McFarlanehttp://www.jmccomposer.com/https://www.facebook.com/JohnMcFarlaneMusic/https://www.imdb.com/name/nm8451327/twitter.com/jmccomposerRecommended Short FilmsFavourite.MOP - SHORT FILMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhn6AnCOtMICLEANSING HOURhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzpI8qnrGxY&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2gmlGKlv01I5SU_gqAX9kIyDQ6Mm_HgRDNfzX0XHUE0cHfNaJi3kQPB8wTAKE YOUR PARTNERS - SHORT FILMhttps://www.sirirodnes.com/take-your-partnersContact info ● Instagram: @choosefilmpodcast● Twitter: @FilmChoose● Get in touch: choosefilmpodcast@hotmail.com

Siobhan McHale is a culture transformer with a track record of making workplaces better. She's helped thousands of leaders create more agile and productive workplaces and written the best-selling book, The Insider's Guide to Culture Change. What we can learn from Siobhan today: What Culture really is The importance of looking at Culture through a commercial lens The value of “Reframing Culture” for people, their roles and organization Collective patterns of relatedness with Culture The four elements of the Culture descriptor   Follow us and explore our social media tribe from our Website: https://leadership-hacker.com Music: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMA Transcript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing Services Siobhan McHale You can learn more from Siobhan below: Siobhan on Twitter Siobhan on LinkedIn Book: The Insider's Guide to Culture Change Find out more from the Barrett Values Centre here: www.valuescentre.com Full Transcript Below: ----more---- Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker. Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you. On today's show, we have Siobhan McHale. She has written the ground-breaking book, The Insider's Guide to Culture Change. It is a global bestseller. She is also a culture transformer and people expert. But before we get a chance to speak with Siobhan. It is The Leadership Hacker News.   The Leadership Hacker News Steve Rush: The Barrett Values Centre has completed some extensive research on the impact of culture and values around COVID-19. The Centre sought to answer questions that are useful and helping supporting leaders in their stakeholders address the challenges that they may face in interviewing 2,500, people worldwide, including 300 C-Suite executives. The pandemic has been referred to as the “great pause”, and it appears to have forced individuals and organizations to stop, look internally and consider what they may need to do to operate in the future and how their approach may also need to shift now. There have been global crises before, but never one that has affected so many people, and so directly in all our lifetime. The research compared personal values, pre COVID-19 to that we are experiencing now. And we've seen four new values emerge in the top priority during the pandemic, they are: making a difference, adaptability wellbeing and caring. The values of continuous learning and family were already present pre COVID, but have since increased in their priority. There has been a real shift in values, moving towards more care and wellbeing amidst the crisis. Some interesting statistics that the report has shared is: wellbeing shifted from its position of 26 to 5, due to the importance placed on people during COVID-19. A traditional process focus has been replaced by focus on people, agility and communication. During COVID-19 results, orientation as an organizational value shifted from its number 2, position down to number 25 and achievement shifted from 6 to 50. Which leaves a question in leaders of how do you then drive results in parallel with wellbeing and people focus to maintain that positive culture? Not surprisingly, values such as agility had moved up from 43 to 8 and Digital connectivity had moved up from 50 to 2 and employee health had moved from 61 to now 5. One stark statement in the research was that employees are placing 15 times more emphasis than their leaders on the need for continued direction and communication going forward. So as you look to thrive, following this pandemic, first take a look at your current state. Don't make assumptions about the values and culture of your organizations, but really evaluate them and learn from what the real landscape looks and feels like in your organization today. If we fail to really diagnosis the situation effectively now, it could mean that we deploy the wrong strategy, the wrong approach and the wrong energy and our next wave of planning. That has been The Leadership Hacker News. If you have any insights, information or stories, please get in touch.   Start of Podcast Steve Rush: Our special guest on today's show is Siobhan McHale. She is a culture transformer, and selected as a member of Thinkers50 radar for tackling the big issues of our time with rigor and energy, and she's also the author of the bestselling book, The Insider's Guide to Culture Change, Siobhan welcome to the show. Siobhan McHale: Thank you, Steve. Great to be with you today. Steve Rush: So before we get into the theme of culture and culture change, it would be really interesting just to explore how you become so fascinated by the theme of culture. Tell us a bit, about how you arrived here. Siobhan McHale: Yeah, I suppose I started off studying psychology and as my classmates were revering down a path to become clinical psychologists, I was really much more interested in the world of work and in particular, what makes people perform at their best and their highest, rather than maybe looking at people who were more struggling with perhaps mental health issues in a clinical setting. I was much more interested in becoming an organizational psychologist, so that really started me on the path to exploring a workplace culture in particular. Steve Rush: During your time in your management-consulting career, you travelled extensively across the world and you saw lots of different cultures. What was the, maybe the one or two things that you identified at that time, that really kind of drew you into the whole premise of culture and what culture is? Siobhan McHale: Yeah, I travelled and worked across four continents, and during that time, I advised hundreds of leaders about how to create more productive and constructive work environments. But I work into some places where there were toxic cultures that really drained the energy from the organization and led to bismel customer service. And then on the other side of the spectrum, I work into some organizations that had amazing cultures that really delighted customers and had very engaged workforces, so I started to over a period of 30 years, started to research what made workplaces deliver, grow and adapt more easily. And really that is the subject of my book. How do you create workplaces that can deliver, grow and adapt? Steve Rush: And it is really interesting in my experience of culture, you can almost walk into an organization and you might not be able to physically see it, but you can get that vibe. You can feel it very, very quickly, whether it is good or, less good, right? Siobhan McHale: Absolutely. Steve Rush: What causes that? Siobhan McHale: I think culture is, one of those commonly used terms, but it really is the ways of relating. The ways of operating within the organization and it is not so much about, what happens at the individual behavioural level. It is more about how the organization functions at a collective level and sometimes those ways of relating are functional and sometimes they are quite destructive. And as I said, they can leak value, financial value included from the organization dropped by corrosive dropped. Steve Rush: And I wonder how organizations apply a different lens versus I have a business strategy over here,  here is my financials; here is my strategy, lots of hard and fast measures. But as you just rightly said, this could leak huge amounts of financial leakage. Organizations can lose a significant amount of revenue by just having the wrong culture and I wonder what causes organizations to look at culture differently to maybe other parts or tenants of that business? Siobhan McHale: Yes, a great question. It is one of the big myths about, what is culture? And how we framed culture has been largely in many organizations in terms of employee experience. So we talk about culture as if it's just about employee satisfaction, employee engagement, inclusion, diversity. And of course, they're really important to aspects of culture, but they're not the I aspects. Culture relates to every part of your business, including how you manufacture, how you design, how you manufacture, how you sell, how you serve as your products. And this is the area that I think we've got to look at culture through a much more commercial lens, because you really need to have the right culture in order to deliver on your strategy. I think that is the question for management teams. What culture do we need to enable and fast track our business strategy? Steve Rush: Is there something there about organizations and indeed leaders within an organization, or having a different perspective of what culture is? Siobhan McHale: Yeah, I often say culture is one of the most talked about, but least understood concepts and workplaces today, and you need to have a common frame and a common language. And I think many leaders have been taught that in order to shape the culture, you simply document the values and the behaviours that you want to see, and you roll out those values and behaviour statements, and then you get a change in the culture. Now, we all know that's nonsense, but leaders haven't been given any other tools or many other tools in order to create the right culture that will deliver on their strategic intent and produce the financial results that they're looking for. So we've got to get leaders away from this notion that it's just about values and behaviours, and start to see that culture is about the collective patterns of relatedness that sit at the more systemic or collective level, Steve Rush: Right, so over the 30 years of research that you have undertaken and extensive study around culture. Is there a simplified way in which you describe what culture is? Siobhan McHale: Yeah, I would say, the ways of relating in the organization and it is the distinction I think, between the dancers and the dance. So the dancers are the behaviours but the dance is the ways of operating. The way that the organization functions and often we focusing just on the behaviours, but we don't, you know, the dancers, but we don't necessarily see the dance. And those are the patterns are what I call the agreements between the parts. Steve Rush: That is a lovely way of describing it. I actually quite like that. Siobhan McHale I did some work at the ANZ bank, which is one of the big four banks in Australia. And this was in the early two thousands, when the bank was really getting a lot of bad press about how it's customer satisfaction and its closure of rural branches and the CEO at the time, John McFarlane knew he had to turn around the organization and create better returns to shareholders and increase customer satisfaction. But when I walked into the bank, I could see that there was a passion that was very dysfunctional, that was keeping it stuck in the old ways and delivering very poor customer satisfaction. And the head office was taking up the role of order giver and the branches, the 700 branches were taking up the role of order takers, so the head office was giving the orders and saying, do this, do that. And the branches were just stepping into the role of the order taker and each part both the head office and the branches were blaming each other for the poor customer satisfaction. And this pattern of blame was going around and round and actually leaking energy from the organization. So we had to see that passion first, before we could start to shift the culture and we put in a new operating model, we reframe the role of the head office from order giver to support provider to the branches. And we reframe the role of the 700 branches from order taker to service provider, to the customer and that new operating model and the reframing change the pattern of blame to a different passion between head office and branches, which was, we worked together to meet the needs of our customers. Steve Rush: And sometimes it is just as simple as reframing, isn't it for people in the mix of that moment, so that they can see things in a different way and get a different behaviour, I guess? Siobhan McHale: Exactly reframing is a very powerful tool that is often overlooked. Sometimes when we think about change, we think we have to change people's personality, but I often think that is the hard way, you know, personalities very hard wired and what right do we have to ask people to change who they are? And instead we can reframe, reframe people's role, reframe the role of a department, reframe the role of the team. You can even reframe the role of a whole organization, and get it pivoting, get it moving very quickly in a different direction. Steve Rush: Now I am sure, you won't mind me mentioning this, but your work aim at. Not only was it instrumental in changing the fortunes, a failing Australian bank to becoming a number one performer globally at one stage, but also that John Kotter or Professor John Kotter. Which many of our listeners will be familiar with as one of the four runners in the world of leading change. Actually, contacted you and is using this as part of the Harvard Business MBA work, am I right? Siobhan McHale: Yeah, so yeah, I was sitting at my desk one day when reception patched through a call from Professor John Kotter. And you can imagine I almost fell off my chair because I'd read all of his books and he was still is a guru in the space and he was my idol. And yeah, he was looking for a global case studies for successful transformation and successful culture change. And he selected the one that I'd written up as the case study that he was teaching Harvard MBA students about. So teaching people how you manage change and how you accelerate change more quickly. So, yeah, that was quite a pivotal moment for me because what it taught me was that my work could be beneficial beyond the bounds of the organization that I was working in. And that was one of the key moments when I also had this realization that I could share the findings of my research with a broader audience which also led me to, write the book. Steve Rush: Awesome, and therefore The Insider's Guide was born? Siobhan McHale: Yes, yes, indeed. The Insider's Guide to Culture Change. Steve Rush: So, we are getting to the book in a little bit more detail in the moment, and there is a couple of things in there that when I read that were really insightful. I would love to explore those with you, but before we do, what is the reason that most leaders often struggle to get culture, right? Siobhan McHale: Yeah, I think you know, it does relate back to how leaders see their role. And one of the things that I've noticed over the past 30 years is leaders tend to frame their role in terms of their running the business. So their operational role, their role is to run the business, but they don't necessarily see or take up their culture change role or that culture role. They don't necessarily see themselves as the chief culture officer and often in organizations, culture has been delegated to HR to, take up the mantle. And whenever that occurs in my experience, it's problematic because then culture becomes something that HR has to fix, and line managers tend to take a step back in those organizations and then culture doesn't get embedded truly in my experience. Steve Rush: It is a neat reframe as well. Having that chief culture officer, I wonder how many organizations actually have one of these days? I am not familiar with many, if any. Siobhan McHale: Yes. Well, I think the chief culture officer needs to be the CEO and HR has to reframe its role to be a critical leader, but in an enabling, function. So providing the tools, the support, the advice, the processes in order to embed the culture that is going to deliver on the organization's strategic imperatives and going to meet the business goals. And I think that's the work that HR has to do to start seeing its role, not just around employee experience, but how can you help managers at all levels to create a culture that might be a growth oriented or performance driven culture or commercial culture, customer driven culture, quality culture, and innovative culture. These are old things that managers are calling out for. How do I have an, a more adaptive culture in these disruptive times? And what I'm saying to HR folk is where is your toolkit for that? How can you walk up to those questions and have solutions for managers and leaders who are looking for that type of help? Steve Rush: Got it, so your book now, The Insider's Guide to Culture Change is available and it is doing really, really well. and I'm delighted to see that is the case for you, so well done. Siobhan McHale: Thank you. Steve Rush: Tell us a little bit about the inspiration for the book and what it was that caused you to finally get all that research together and put pen to paper. Siobhan McHale: Yeah, I really did want to, my parents did teach us their children to keep learning and to make a positive difference in the world. And one of the things I noticed was that there were a lot of people writing about culture, who had a brilliant lens. They were outsiders though, so they were either consultants or academics or journalists, and they were writing about workplace culture, a fantastic lens, but I had a different lens and that was an insider lens. So I had been the executive in charge of transformation in a series of multinational organizations, as well as being an external outsider. I have been a management consultant, but when I became an insider as the executive in charge of change, I just had a different experience, and I started to test and really see what tools can help accelerate culture change and what tools don't and I thought, well, where is that voice? Where is that voice of the insider? And it wasn't really there. And I had to stop asking and start picking up, you know, my responsibility in sharing what I knew rather than looking for somebody else to do that. So I decided, yeah, it needs to be told. These stories, these tools need to be shared and yeah. Decided to step into that role, Steve Rush: Brilliant stuff. There was one thing that really intrigued me when I read the book, it was around activating the culture disruptor from an inside out perspective. Tell us a little bit about that? Siobhan McHale: Yeah, so the culture disruptor is my four steps solution to creating the right culture for your business and it really is. It starts with step number one, which is you must diagnose what is really going on in your organization and in the external environment, too many people stepping to culture change in the wrong place. They start thinking about what type of culture do we need, and that is the wrong place to start. You need to start back at what is going on in the business environment and what are the external forces? What are the deeply embedded and often hidden patterns that are running us that we really maybe need to say goodbye to in the future. Sometimes the patterns that served you very well in the past and not the same patterns that are going to serve you in the future. So yeah, it is a four-step process to get to and continue to create a culture that is going to meet your business needs, starting with them analysing what is going on for you within your workplace, as well as the external environment.   The second step then is to reframe. Reframing is a very powerful tool, and you can reframe the role of the different parts of your business in order to create faster change with less noise. So it gives a lot of examples of how you do that, reframing in the book. And then the third step is to break the pattern. It sounds easy, but it is much harder than it sounds. And there's different tools to break some patterns that are may no longer be serving you. And then the fourth one is to consolidate your gains and this is where a lot of leadership teams and management teams, they lose puff. They run out of steam on the journey. So how do you keep going? How do you keep your foot on the change accelerator over the longer term? Steve Rush: And momentum is probably the biggest key here. Isn't it? Because it is like rolling a big Boulder up a Hill. Siobhan McHale: It is. Steve Rush: You get so far and so far, and the energy starts to wane. What would be the one thing if I was a leader listening to this, that you'd say that would be helpful for me to maintain that momentum on any culture change? Siobhan McHale: Yeah, I would say your leadership team form a, you know, give them the role of leading the change effort, the culture change effort, and have regular meetings with your management or leadership team. About how is the change going? I talk about seeing yourselves as captains of a ship, and instead of spending all of your time on deck. You need to get back onto the bridge and have a look at what is going on in relation to our change journey. How we tracking? What are some of the things that we are experiencing? We might have put something into the organization. How did that go? Often leaders do interventions, but they don't check how it went. You know, what was the reaction? What was the response? What was the feedback? Do we need to ahead in a different direction? So I would say having that management team and meeting regularly and diagnosing how's the change going and how do we need to move and adjust on the journey? Steve Rush: It is a constant evaluation as well. Isn't it? It's just not one of those things you can set off and run and then think, right. Okay. We will keep going. It is a constant evaluation to pivot and to change and to modify, right?   Siobhan McHale: Absolutely, many leaders have been taught. You just spend months defining the values of the organization. You produce a glossy document and some posters; you roll out some workshops and that is it, and that isn't it. As we know, seldom works, so we've got to try a different way. And that's why I think it's important for leaders to understand that they have a culture role and giving them the tools to take up this culture role at all levels. So it is not just senior executives, managers. At all levels need to be able to step into their role, to shape the type of culture that is going to deliver the business results that they need. Steve Rush: You just spiked a thought in my thinking actually, because you are absolutely right. Culture, is not about a certain level of hierarchy leading this. This is a leadership responsibility for everybody in whatever role they do in the organization. I wonder how many organizations actually feature culture and the role that we have to play in leading culture as part of induction programs. Siobhan McHale: I think it is really a great point. I think most organizations would talk to their new employees about their organizational values, but I doubt that many would frame people's role as a cultural leader. I think it is becoming more common, but you know, your role is to lead to the culture and bring it to life every single day. That is a very powerful reframe compared to here are the values and here is your mug or mouse pad with the values on it. Steve Rush: Right. Siobhan McHale: And that was one of the keys at ANZ bank. Every person was told, and one of our five values was that you will lead and inspire each other. So the reframe there was leadership will not come from the top. Each of you will lead and inspire each other and that was a powerful mobilizer on our change journey. That reframe for the 32,000 employees. Steve Rush: I love that. I think that is really powerful, really powerful. So in your book, you also talk about there being a number of big myths about workplace culture. What is the biggest myth that you encountered? Siobhan McHale: I think there are many, many big myths, but I think one of the biggest ones is that culture is somehow fixed and a one size fits all. So there is this myth that, you know, we have to keep the same culture as we have always had. It is like a mountain or a rock, whereas culture needs to adapt, needs to keep on being something that you examine and that you refine as needed. And it's not a one size fits all, you know, there's this thing, Oh, you must, we almost aspire to X culture. Well, you know, what about if you are in a military department, you might want to create a discipline culture to ensure that soldiers and civilians are safe in war torn regions. Whereas if you are a leader in a marketing company, you might want to create an innovative culture. So you can really impress and wow clients with your innovative ideas, so no two organizations will need a want the exact same culture, so it's not a one-size fits all state. Steve Rush: I think you are right, super stuff. The one thing that intrigued me quite often, when I have conversations with my clients and their teams around culture and setting them up for success is the whole principle about how do we measure it. So there is lots of judicial outcomes that we can look forward in terms of behaviours and results, but how would you suggest is the best or the most effective way of measuring culture change? Siobhan McHale: Yeah. Culture itself is, you know, I think if you go back to the ANZ example, what you've got to be able to see in your diagnosis of your culture are the passions of relating between the parts. So you've got to be able to see, for example, that the head office is in role of order giver and the branches are enrolled of order taker. And there's a pattern of blame between them. Now, that is not something you can measure. You've got to be able to go in there and diagnose that. If you don't get that diagnostic, right, the risk is that you go in and you say, Oh, we've got for customer satisfaction. Let's put in some training courses so that the branch staff know how to deliver better customer service to our customers. And that intervention could actually fuel the passion of blame in the organization, as you can imagine, because the branch staff might say, well, they don't even trust us to provide service. Steve Rush: Sure. Siobhan McHale: And it is not our fault. It is the head office. We don't have the authority to make decisions. So that diagnosis is not something that you can measure, but you can measure the outcomes of seeing the pattern and intervening to shift the pattern by for example, a customer satisfaction survey. So if you're aiming to have a culture of customer centricity, you can measure that by getting feedback from your customers about how they seeing your service, but the diagnostic is different to the outcome of the culture, if you know what I'm saying. The passion you can't measure as easily, you've got to be able to see that and it's not necessarily something that a survey will tell you, Steve Rush: Of course and if you don't get that diagnostic, right, your outcomes and your measures of any kind will be incorrect in the first place, Siobhan McHale: Correct, Absolutely and many times leaders rush off and they put in interventions that don't actually create any change. And sometimes it takes them backwards, which was happening at the ANZ. They were doing restructure after restructure, trying to train people and get them to increase the customer satisfaction. And it was having no impact until we went in and did a proper diagnostic. Steve Rush: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So as part of your journey as well, and becoming renowned now for culture and leading cultural change, you've also been a leader of others. My job, as part, this show is to hack into the minds of great leaders. And I'm really keen to get into your leadership thinking now, and to find out what would be some of your top hacks. So tell us, what your top leadership hacks could be Siobhan? Siobhan McHale: I would say for me, it is don't try to change somebody as a person. Modify the role, not the person. So for me, I found that that is an amazing way of allowing people to be their true, authentic selves but reframing their role. And I've had so many examples of them, just people seeing their role. In one way, for example, I was coaching somebody who was having real problems with their team, and getting people on board and there was just a lot of noise from her team. She drew a map of her role with seeing herself as an individual achiever and achiever rather than, and she was running up the hill on her own rather than galvanizer or mobilizer of her team. So just that awareness that she was involved with individual achiever and she needed to be enrolled of mobilizer shifted her whole way of interacting with her team. So that would be one of my big ones, reframe the roll rather than trying to modify or change the person. Steve Rush: Fascinating. I have never thought of it that way before, because most people will try and coach cajole, encourage behavioural shift, where actually it might just be a simple reframe of the role. Right? Siobhan McHale: Yeah. Steve Rush: Which is a lot easier to fix of course, than someone's behaviours. Siobhan McHale: Yeah, absolutely and sometimes we, have lots of…another guy, he came to me and he was looking for a job, but he'd been looking for a job for nine months and had cv, that was seven pages long with lots and lots of detail. And I flicked through it and he said, I just can't get a break Siobhan. And I flipped through it and I said, you know what? You are a problem solver. You are a fixer. He went, yeah, that is everything that I have done in my career. I have fixed problems. I solve problems. Anyway, within three months, he had landed a senior job in a very big organization in Australia. And I didn't even know about this, but my boss met his boss, two CEOs meeting each other. And she talked about the fact that she just hired this guy as the CFO. And he said, why did you hire him? She said, oh, he is a problem solver. He is a fixer, just that simple reframe of what he actually did and the value that he brought, allowed him to go into the marketplace and sort of frame his role in a very different way. And it landed him a job so the power of reframing. How you and others see you and your role is incredibly powerful. My other leadership hacks and it is something that we help. We have talked about is don't rush too quickly to solutions. You know, I see a lot of leaders under a lot of pressure to deliver the results very quickly, take the time to diagnose the underlying issues and the patterns that are of relatedness between the parts. And the other one I would say is don't delegate your culture to HR to fix. Make sure you and your other leaders are actually leading culture and HR is in its role to enable that to happen with great tools and great solutions, but don't delegate culture. Steve Rush: Super advice, thank you. We affectionately call this part of the show Hack to Attack. And this is where we explore with our guests times in their career or their lives, where things haven't worked out well, perhaps it's been adversity, but as a result of that, we're now using that experience as a positive in our life and our work. What would be your Hack to Attack? Siobhan McHale: Yeah. When I was first, hired as a management consultant in London at Coopers and Lybrand, which is now PricewaterhouseCoopers. I took on board two big assignments at the same time. I was very keen I was ambitious, so I took on board. Work for two different partners and they were both full time jobs. And I went to one of the partners at the time and I said, listen, I'm really in a double bind here because I've got two massive assignments. And you know, I don't think I can deliver both of them. And he said, well, you've taken them on board now and you've committed. So you've got to deliver them and I stayed up for three weeks working, you know, burning the candle at both ends, but I did deliver both of them. And it was a big lesson for me about, you know, you make a commitment and you deliver on that commitment and no matter what it takes. So it was a really big lesson. It was hard one, but it stayed with me until this day. Whatever you promise, you deliver on that promise. Steve Rush: Sets you up for success. Siobhan McHale: Yeah, absolutely Steve. Steve Rush: So Siobhan, if we were able to do a bit of time travel now and you were able to bump into yourself at 21, what would be the best bit of advice you would give Siobhan Then? Siobhan McHale: At 21, I was still a student in Galway on the West coast of Ireland studying psychology. And I suppose I was wondering at that stage, what would my future look like? And I probably tell myself, don't be fried, follow your passions, travel the world, and yeah. Pursue your dreams and don't be afraid of being your true, authentic self in that as well. Just be who you are and follow your passions, follow your dreams. And that's sort of what I did, but looking back on it, it was probably with some trepidation, I was wondering what's going to emerge in the future. So don't be afraid to be your true self and follow your dreams. Steve Rush: Awesome and of course it's not time bound to age, is it? And that's still probably holds true today, right? Siobhan McHale: Absolutely, same lesson. True, Steve. Steve Rush: So what is next for you then Siobhan? Siobhan McHale: And in terms of what is next for me, I mean, I love my job. I'm the head of HR at DuluxGroup and I love my job and I'm also in my role as an educator. So I love being the head of HR at DuluxGroup and I also love being an educator and which is one of the reasons I wrote the book. So I'm leaning into both of those roles and really loving it, Steve, Steve Rush: And more education and more supporting and helping other people's thinking, which today has definitely been part of too. Siobhan McHale: Oh, thank you. I hope that it will help people to create better workplaces, which is always been my passion. Steve Rush:  So from my perspective, I just want to say, I am delighted that you are on the show and thanks ever so much for sharing some of your great insights. If folks wanted to get to know a little bit more about your work. Where is the best place they could find out a bit more? Siobhan McHale: Yeah I would say LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me. And yeah, Siobhan McHale. It is S-I-O-B-H-A-N, Siobhan a very unusual Gaelic name, but yeah, that is the best place to define me, Steve. Steve Rush:  Brilliant and we will make sure we put your LinkedIn profile in our show notes, and we will also put a copy of the link into your book as well. So folks can find it when they've listened to you today. Siobhan McHale: Great, thanks you Steve. Steve Rush: Siobhan thanks ever so much for taking time out of your busy schedule and speaking to us from the other side of the planet. So our first Australian connection on our show. So thanks ever so much for being part of The Leadership Hacker Podcast. Siobhan McHale: It has been a pleasure.   Closing Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others, and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers. Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker.  

John McFarlane who’s written a book about an attempt to circle the world in a canoe...with TRE's Dave Hodgson

The Braw and The Brave is a podcast about people and their passions. *Contains some strong language* 'The Thingymabobs' became a feature of the podcast in 2019, with the last question I asked every guest being 'What's your favourite Scottish word or phrase?'. Here are some of the wonderful answers given and the reasons why my braw guests love the Scots patter so much. Enjoy! BrawBraveisms by: Amy Hawthorn, Niki Jones, YesZebra aka Martina Govindraj, Georgia Cecile, Ross Muir, George Parsonage, Terian Tilston, Julie Brown, Bundu Media, Linzi Dunlevy, Charlie Blair Oliphant, Alasdair Hutton OBE, Gareth Fraser , Ross Broom, Bluebellgray with Fi Douglas, Mark McKenzie, Law Design Studio with Gillian McNeil, ‘Lucy's Blue Day' with Chris Duke, Kevin Daniel Cahill, The Forge with Graeme Walker, Andy the Outcast, ThankFifi with Wendy Gilmour, Papamacs, Graeme Easton, Edward Reid, Murray Kerr, John McFarlane, Donna Giffen, The History Girls, Love & Squalor with Rebecca Coyle, Katie MacFarlane, Ryan Davidson, James Klinge, Emma Gwynne, Gillian Badger, Tom Houston, Rosalind Sydney, Bruce Smart aka TeaPotOne, Lisa Hertwig, Up Next Studios, Thomas Gemmell, Daniel Brawley, Emma Dunlop, Ross Baxter and The McDougalls. Follow The Braw and The Brave https://www.instagram.com/thebrawandthebravepodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/TheBrawandTheBrave https://twitter.com/BrawBravee Braw and The Brave is a podcast about people and their passions.

The Braw and The Brave is a podcast about people and their passions. A look back at the first year of The Braw and The Brave with so many interesting and inspiring guests sharing their stories, wisdom and everything in between. If you haven't yet listened to all 50 episodes from 2019, here's a sneak peek at all the creative, courageous and simply captivating conversations had. The Braw and The Brave Clan of 2019 Amy Hawthorn, Niki Jones, YesZebra aka Martina Govindraj, Georgia Cecile, Ross Muir, George Parsonage, Terian Tilston, Julie Brown, Bundu Media, Linzi Dunlevy, Charlie Blair Oliphant, Alasdair Hutton OBE, Gareth Fraser , Ross Broom, Bluebellgray with Fi Douglas, Mark McKenzie, Law Design Studio with Gillian McNeil, ‘Lucy's Blue Day' with Chris Duke, Kevin Daniel Cahill, The Forge with Graeme Walker, Andy the Outcast, ThankFifi with Wendy Gilmour, Papamacs, Graeme Easton, Edward Reid, Murray Kerr, John McFarlane, Donna Giffen, The History Girls, Love & Squalor with Rebecca Coyle, Katie MacFarlane, Ryan Davidson, James Klinge, Emma Gwynne, Harminder Berman, Gillian Badger, Tom Houston, Rosalind Sydney, Bruce Smart aka TeaPotOne, Lisa Hertwig, Up Next Studios, Strong Like A Mutha with Lyndsey Roberts, ERISKA, Thomas Gemmell, Connie McLaughlin, Daniel Brawley, Emma Dunlop, Greg Summers, The McDougalls and Ross Baxter. Follow The Braw and The Brave https://www.instagram.com/thebrawandthebravepodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/TheBrawandTheBrave https://twitter.com/BrawBrave

This week Neil & Rachel discuss the relationship between mental heath, violence & politics and how this impacts on the case of John McFarlane, a man open to mental health services who murdered a woman he was obsessed with.

The Braw and The Brave is a podcast about people and their passions. In Episode 24 I chat with Glasgow based composer John McFarlane. As a boy , learning 4 chords on his dad's guitar ignited not only a passion for music but a raw talent that John was able to carry on into adulthood, playing in bands and teaching guitar. A lifelong movie fan, John now combines both his passions creating scores for films and explains that whilst the journey towards your goal may not resemble that of your peers, it is in fact that pathway that makes your story all the more unique. Enjoy! Website http://jmccomposer.com/ https://www.imdb.com/name/nm8451327/ Social Media https://www.facebook.com/JohnMcFarlaneMusic/ https://www.instagram.com/jmc_composer/ https://twitter.com/jmccomposer Follow us on Instagram and Facebook https://www.instagram.com/thebrawandthebravepodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/TheBrawandTheBrave/

This story was told in Belfast at the Black Box on 24 April 2019 when the theme was Guilt. It was told by John McFarlane, his first story at tenx9. It should also have featured in Podcast 096 but something went wrong with that upload. So here it is: “There are no medals…”

This story was told in Belfast at the Black Box on 24 April 2019 when the theme was Guilt. It was told by John McFarlane, his first story at tenx9. It should also have featured in Podcast 096 but something went wrong with that upload. So here it is: “There are no medals…”

*Theme Music: Chartsmasher – Dial Up* chartsmasher.bandcamp.com/releases specialdudescomix.bigcartel.com/ [Go to Little Heroes Comics & Fair Spark Books: Bring a massive smile to comic’s creativity today] littleheroescomics.co.uk/ fairsparkbooks.co.uk/ “You were always on my miiiiiiind” Welcome everyone. This time around the folks here at TCS HQ are having a little go through and making a dent in what we have been reading recently. We have some short Reviews, some general ogling and drooling over. We have some hearty recommends and just a general letting y’all know what pages we have been sniffing recently for all of you looking to add some beautiful dirty paper to your reading list. This and all the usual comics chat on the only comics podcast to be better than Bond. Not hard really… That Comic Smell! Follow us on Twitter & Instagram @thatcomicsmell Get us on… Soundcloud: tinyurl.com/y8vzeh3c Spotify: tinyurl.com/y2qtu2cs YouTube: tinyurl.com/yajnxcno iTunes: tinyurl.com/hwbqxab Podbean: tinyurl.com/yxvecykj and most places you find podcasts. Don’t forget to Like, Share, Subscribe, Rate & Review. Thanks again for listening and supporting the podcast Red (Laura Monaghan) Goblins (Sloth Comics) 70 (Alisdair Wood) Female Furies (Cecil Castelluci, Adrianna Melo) Defenders (Ed Hannigan) Shark Wife (Olivia Hicks) Batgirl (Hope Larson, Chris Wildgoose) The Rehabilitation of Doctor Eye (Gold Lion Comics) Space Ghost (Gold Key) Ferals (Gabriel Andrade) Maximum Security: The Mighty Thor (Dan Jurgens) Bruce (David Cooper) Demon Knights (Paul Cornell, Diogenes Neves) Detective #1000 (Various DC folks) Avengers: True Believers Re-print (Marvel) Star Wars Legends #5 (Marvel) Dear Justice League (Michael Northrop, Gustavo Duarte) Lazarus: Risen (Greg Rucka) Machine Man (Jack Kirby) Signs from an Impending Marriage (Adrian Tomine) Cassandra Dark (Possey Simmons) Conspiracy Dog (KEK-W, Lukasz Kowalczuk) Hello Dolly (John Tucker) CYDO (John Tucker) The Fragment (Adam Falp) Living in Sin (Adam Falp) Human Garbage (Josh Hicks) Glorious Wrestling Alliance (Josh Hicks) The Hunter (Joe Sparrow) The Intercorstal (Gareth Hopkins) Death Ray (Dan Clowes) Like a Velvet Glove Cast in Iron (Dan Clowes) Geis (Alexis Deacon) Desolation Wilderness (Claire Scully) Invasion from Planet Wrestletopia (Ed Kuehnel, Matt Entin, Dan Schkade) The Lang Walk Hame (Peter Watson, Gordon Johnston) Leaf (Nicole Bates) Lemon Pepper Huggz (5 Meats Comics) Princess Wolf and her Life of Darkness (Beatrix, Kristen Haas Curtis) Saffron (Samuel George London, Rosie Alexander) Slang Pictorial (Nick Pictorial) Snuffy & Zoey (John Celestri) Marble Cake (Scott Jason Smith) Untitled Generic Space Comedy (Matt Garvey, John McFarlane)

Four stories ranging from tragedy to farce via kindness and love: John McFarlane remembers when a name could mean life or death; Alan Madsen remembers three random acts of kindness; Caroline Orr remembers the dates she wishes she could forget; Pádraig remembers a cold NYC during an appearance Down Under. Paul is your host. Tenx9 is a storytelling evening founded in Belfast in 2011 by Pádraig Ó Tuama & Paul Doran.

Four stories ranging from tragedy to farce via kindness and love: John McFarlane remembers when a name could mean life or death; Alan Madsen remembers three random acts of kindness; Caroline Orr remembers the dates she wishes she could forget; Pádraig remembers a cold NYC during an appearance Down Under. Paul is your host. Tenx9 is a storytelling evening founded in Belfast in 2011 by Pádraig Ó Tuama & Paul Doran.

In this episode we discuss our recent trip to Oldham Comic Con 3 held on Saturday May 11th. Nikki tabled on the day and Ian went off interviewing a range of comic creators. These included 2000AD artist David ‘Max’ Millgate, Kevin from Deadstar Publishing, Rok of the Reds artist Dan Cornwell, Zenith artist Steve Yeowell, Oldham Comic Con organiser Dennis Whittle, Asa Wheatley, Kat Willott & Sammy Ward, 2000AD and The Immortal Hulk writer Al Ewing and Phantom legend Keith Williams. We had a great day and intend to return next year.We review Cannabis An American History by Box Brown and Untitled Generic Space Comedy #1 by Matt Garvey, John Mcfarlane, Allison Hu and Rob Guillory plus Prey for Us by Garvey and J Francis Totti. Tom reviews Hello Dolly by John Tucker. We also give our thoughts on Spider-man Into the Spider-verse and Detective Pikachu. Finally we take a look at the newly announced exhibitors in the Clock Tower at the Lakes Festival this year. Thank you for listening.http://www.comicartpodcast.ukTwitter: @comicartfestpodFacebook: Comic Art PodcastInstagram: ComicArtPodcastAlso on YouTubeFind all about the festival at http://www.comicartfestival.comLogo designed by Pete Taylor at http://www.thismanthispete.comContributions by Mike Williams (@CthulhuPunk) Pete Taylor (@thismanthispete) and Tom Stewart (@uramyx).Title Music: Don’t Fool Yourself by Pop Noir

In this episode we discuss our recent trip to Oldham Comic Con 3 held on Saturday May 11th. Nikki tabled on the day and Ian went off interviewing a range of comic creators. These included 2000AD artist David ‘Max’ Millgate, Kevin from Deadstar Publishing, Rok of the Reds artist Dan Cornwell, Zenith artist Steve Yeowell, Oldham Comic Con organiser Dennis Whittle, Asa Wheatley, Kat Willott & Sammy Ward, 2000AD and The Immortal Hulk writer Al Ewing and Phantom legend Keith Williams. We had a great day and intend to return next year.We review Cannabis An American History by Box Brown and Untitled Generic Space Comedy #1 by Matt Garvey, John Mcfarlane, Allison Hu and Rob Guillory plus Prey for Us by Garvey and J Francis Totti. Tom reviews Hello Dolly by John Tucker. We also give our thoughts on Spider-man Into the Spider-verse and Detective Pikachu. Finally we take a look at the newly announced exhibitors in the Clock Tower at the Lakes Festival this year. Thank you for listening.http://www.comicartpodcast.ukTwitter: @comicartfestpodFacebook: Comic Art PodcastInstagram: ComicArtPodcastAlso on YouTubeFind all about the festival at http://www.comicartfestival.comLogo designed by Pete Taylor at http://www.thismanthispete.comContributions by Mike Williams (@CthulhuPunk) Pete Taylor (@thismanthispete) and Tom Stewart (@uramyx).Title Music: Don’t Fool Yourself by Pop Noir

John McFarlane on measuring progress on gender equality in finance

Something To Talk About.....Where is Stephen and why is he late?, #GetWellSoonClare , Bob is Eurotrash, #AussieDave , Boat shoes or loafers?, Secret Facebook pages, AW NAW! NO ANNONI OAN ANAW NOO! Chic Charnley, Unethical foods, Egg sandwiches in the West End, David Hayman, Bickering, Stephen gets drunk, You always need to have fun, #Morrissey, Manchester, Extremism, Diane Abbott, http://foundation4peace.org/ Prison reform, #ThomasGarrity , Community officers, Georgie Ballgrabber, Iron Baws & Fatty Karate, Fun in the Sun in The Drum, Police Caution, Who is John McFarlane?, Everyday heroism, Dark humour, #WeWantArthur , Physio in the 80's, Diane strums in the sun, Put your shades back on...

Patrick Jenkins is joined by Martin Arnold, banking editor and Sam Fleming, financial policy correspondent, as well as Tobias Buck, Madrid bureau chief and Simon Hayes, partner at Odgers Berntson, to discuss the appointment of John McFarlane as Barclays chairman, the Scottish independence debate and the change of leadership at Spanish bank Santander. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Sherlock Holmes and the Adventure of the Norwood Builder, Scene 7 Lestrade: The housekeeper was in the plot, of course.Holmes: Yes, of course, to bring him food and drink, and to put that thumb mark onto the wall. Holmes' reconstruction of the crime gets us all up to speed   Scene 7 wraps up the story of the Norwood Builder. Once Holmes had proven Jonas Oldacre's guilt and, therefore, John McFarlane's innocence, he was willing to explain how the crime must have been committed and how he'd figured it out. This is the reconstruction of the crime, a feature of every cozy detective story. Holmes reveals Oldacre's motive As Holmes responds to their questions, Lestrade and Watson come to understand how Oldacre had the housekeeper put the thumbprint on the wall, and how he'd even gotten John's thumbprint in the first place. Holmes is also able to explain Oldacre's dual motive, one reason being for revenge on John's mother, and the other reason being to defraud his creditors. Holmes has an explanation for the remains that were found, the buttons, and the bloodstained walking stick too. All of this so-called evidence, like the thumbprint, had been intentionally placed at the crime scene just to frame John McFarlane. John is released from jail and comes to thank Sherlock Holmes. He is exuberant  at his newfound freedom, a fresh chance to live again. Sherlock, who only takes on interesting cases, is amazed at how simple it was for Oldacre to set John up as the prime suspect in a murder case and change his identity to get out of paying off his creditors. Have fun learning the keywords with English-Chinese Flashcards and Games.DL001-DL003: Keywords, Part A on QuizletDL004-DL007: Keywords, Part B on Quizlet Free MP3: Radio Play without the teacher Review time: Listen to the whole play again, from beginning to end, Length: [27:26]. Login to download the free MP3.Not a member? Register now. Membership is free. What role did the housekeeper play? Do you think she should be arrested too? And if so, what crime should she be charged with?

Sherlock Holmes and the Adventure of the Norwood Builder, Scene 4 Watson: It’s from Lestrade. “Important fresh evidence to hand. Advise you abandon case.”Holmes: Oh, very kind of him!Watson: Wait, there’s more. “McFarlane’s fingerprint in blood found on wall beside hat stand. -- Lestrade.” A Look at the Crime Scene: Holmes and Watson go to Norwood to see the crime scene. He sees the signs of a struggle, the blood stains, and the marks in the dirt showing that something heavy was dragged across the timber yard. Some remains are found in the ashes. They are too burnt to be identified, but some buttons suggest it was human remains. All in all, it did not look good for John McFarlane. Everything seemed to point to him. Sherlock returns home very moody because his instincts tell him John is innocent, but the facts don't seem to fit. It is interesting to note that the weather reflects Sherlock Holmes' mood. While the case remains unsolved, the weather is unpleasantly hot. It feels like a thunderstorm is coming. That thunderstorm reflects the stormy, unsettled situation in which Holmes' client, John McFarlane, finds himself. New Evidence: Then a telegram arrives informing Holmes that new evidence has been found. Police Detective Lestrade is convinced that this closes the case and proves John guilty, but Holmes comes to the opposite conclusion. Holmes is onto a new line of investigation. He announces that he wants to go to Blackheath, but he does not tell Watson what he is thinking. Perhaps this is because it is merely theory and he wants to find more proof before presenting this idea to anyone, even Watson. On the other hand, perhaps it is because Holmes is getting competitive. Although he wants to train Watson to use deductive reasoning to solve cases, as he gets closer to the solution he becomes more secretive. He has a strong desire to come out on top and show everyone that he is still the greatest of detectives. Have fun learning the keywords with English-Chinese Flashcards and Games.DL001-DL003: Keywords, Part A on QuizletDL004-DL007: Keywords, Part B on Quizlet Why does Police Detective Lestrade think John is definitely guilty of murder? Please leave your answer in the comments below.

Sherlock Holmes and the Adventure of the Norwood Builder (Scene 3) John McFarlane Continues His Story Police Detective Lestrade's comments and opinion irritate Holmes, so Holmes gets quite sarcastic and cutting with Lestrade. For example, Lestrade says, "I came on here myself to do my duty." He strongly feels it is his responsibility to arrest John McFarlane. To this, Holmes responds, "Then you plainly must do your duty, my dear Lestrade. He's yours." The idea of a murder and arson case, and the possibility that young John McFarlane is being framed (set up to make it look like he committed the crime when he didn't) and won't find justice if it is left up to detectives like Lestrade, grabs Holmes' interest. That is significant as Sherlock Holmes only takes on cases that peak his interest. Holmes assures John that he will take on the case. Although John still gets arrested by Lestrade, he has the great detective on his side. Bumbling Police versus Skillful Detective Sherlock Holmes is quite professional, but has no police training. What he does have are the skills of observation and deductive reasoning. With these tools, he sets himself up as a private detective. This is quite typical of classical detective stories. Later cozy detective stories explored the possibility of using other kinds of people to fill the detective role. These amateur detectives  have a skill or they have personal connections to help them solve a case. Some examples of amateur detectives are news reporters or news photographers. Their natural connection to reporting on crimes brings them in contact with crime scenes, and witnesses to interview. From their real job of news reporting, they also know the chief of police, firefighters, and other key people whose expertise the reporter/detective can draw on. Other amateur detectives have been mystery writers, nosy neighbors with lots of time on their hands, and even someone with a strong personal interest in solving the case. Perhaps they were a friend or relative of the victim, and they see the police trying but getting nowhere, so they become personally involved. In contrast to the resourceful, logically thinking detective are the bumbling police officers. They try hard, but lack the skill needed to successfully solve the case. Since he is willing to take on the case, it is likely that Holmes at least has a feeling that John McFarlane is innocent. But he won't commit to this point of view. He needs facts and evidence. He enters his investigation with an open mind. He guards against jumping to conclusions. Making assumptions and jumping to conclusions is what Lestrade and his men do time and time again. And that is basically the difference between the bumbling police officers and the skillful detective. Have fun learning the keywords with English-Chinese Flashcards and Games.DL001-DL003: Keywords, Part A on QuizletDL004-DL007: Keywords, Part B on Quizlet Why does Holmes allow Lestrade to arrest John McFarlane? Please leave a reply in the comments below.

Sherlock Holmes and the Adventure of the Norwood Builder, Scene 2 McFarlane: He’d left me everything! Holmes: Did he tell you why?  McFarlane: He said he hadn’t any relations, and he’d known my parents in his youth, followed my career, and so he felt he’d like to do it for old time’s sake, and because I was a deserving case.  Holmes: Oh, is that true? Touching! We underestimate the power of sentiment, Watson. McFarlane Seeks Holmes' Help Lestrade arrives ready to arrest McFarlane, but Sherlock Holmes talks him into hearing McFarlane out first -- to listen to his side of the story. The story has already hit the morning news, so Watson tells Holmes the newspaper version of the story. They then hear out John McFarlane. Lestrade is still sure it's an 'open and shut' case. There seems to be a lot of evidence against McFarlane, and no other suspects. McFarlane's case stirs the beauty of normal life into chaos. Sherlock Holmes takes on the case believing he can set things right again. The worldview of the cozy detective story is that life is good, people are generally good. This crime is just 'a blip in the radar', but once we solve it, everything will be good again. In cozy detective stories, this positive worldview is reflected in the setting (where the story takes place). This one takes place in the rolling green hills near a small country village just outside of London, England. What an unfitting place for a crime! The crime seems so out of place. Have fun learning the keywords with English-Chinese Flashcards and Games.DL001-DL003: Keywords, Part A on QuizletDL004-DL007: Keywords, Part B on Quizlet How would you feel if a stranger wrote a will leaving everything he had to you? Why do you think John believed the stranger when this happened to him? Please rely in the comments below.

Discuss this episode in the Muse community Follow @MuseAppHQ on Twitter Show notes 00:00:00 - Speaker 1: There’s been very little innovation and research more generally into what is a good interface for inputting equations. So I think most people are probably familiar with Microsoft Word or Excel have these equation editors where you basically open this palette and there is a preview and there is a button for every possible mathematical symbol or operator you can imagine. 00:00:28 - Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Meta Muse. Muse is a tool for thought on iPad and Mac. This podcast isn’t about Muse the product, it’s about Muse the company and the small team behind it. I’m Adam Wiggins here today with my colleague Mark McGranaghan. Hey, Adam. And joined by our guest Sarah Lim, who goes by Slim. Hello, hello, and Slim, you’ve got various interesting affiliations including UC Berkeley, Notion, Inc and Switch, but what I’m interested in right now is the lessons you’ve learned from playing classic video games. Tell me about that. 00:01:01 - Speaker 1: So this arose when I was deciding whether to get the 14 inch or 16 inch M1 MacBook Pro and a critical question of our age, let’s be 00:01:10 - Speaker 1: honest. Exactly, exactly. I couldn’t decide. I posted a request for comments on Twitter, and then I had this realization that when I was 6 years old playing Organ Trail 5, which is a remake of Organ Trail 2, which is itself a remake of the original. I was in the initial outfitting stage, and you have 3 choices for your farm wagon. You can get the small farm wagon, the large farm wagon, and the Conestoga wagon. I actually don’t know if I’m pronouncing that correctly, but let’s assume I am. So I just naively chose the Conestoga wagon because as a 6 year old, I figured that bigger must be better and being able to store more supplies for your expedition would make it more successful. I eventually learned that the fact that the wagon is much larger and can store a lot more weight means that it’s a lot easier to overload it. Among other things, this requires constantly abandoning supplies to cut weight. It makes the roover forwarding minigame much more perilous. It’s a lot harder to control the wagon. And yeah, I never chose that wagon again on subsequent playthroughs, and I decided to get the 14-inch laptop. 00:02:12 - Speaker 2: Makes perfect sense to me and and what a great lesson for a six year old trade-offs, I feel like it’s one of the most important kind of fundamental concepts to understand as a human in this world, and I think many folks struggle with that well into adulthood. At least I feel like I’ve often been in certainly business conversations where trying to explain trade-offs is met with confusion. 00:02:35 - Speaker 1: They should just play Organ Trail. 00:02:37 - Speaker 2: Clearly that’s the solution. And tell us a little bit about your background. 00:02:42 - Speaker 1: Yeah, so I’ve been interested in basically all permutations really of user interfaces and programming languages for a really long time, so this includes the very different programming languages as user interfaces and programming languages for user interfaces, and then, you know, the combination of the two. So right now I’m doing a PhD in programming languages, interested in more of like the theoretical perspective, but in the past, I’ve worked on I guess, end user computing, which is really the broader vision of notion, I was at Khan Academy for a while on the long term research team. 00:03:18 - Speaker 2: Yeah, and there I think you worked with Andy Matuschek, who’s a good friend of ours and uh previous guest on the podcast. 00:03:24 - Speaker 1: Yes, definitely. That was the first time I worked with Andy in real depth, and I still really enjoy talking to him and occasionally collaborating with him today. So, I guess, prior to that, I was doing a lot of research at the intersection of HCI or human computer interaction and programming tools, programming systems, I guess. So, one of the big projects that I worked on as an undergrad was focused on inspecting. CSS on a webpage or more generally trying to understand what are the properties of like the code that influence how the page looks or a visual outcome of interest, and there I was really motivated by the fact that you have these software tools have their own Mental model, I guess, or just model of how code works and how different parts of the program interact to produce some output and then you have the user who has often this entirely different intuitive model of what matters, what’s important. So they don’t care if this line of code is or isn’t evaluated, they care whether it actually has a visible effect on the output. So trying to reconcile those two paradigms, I think is a recurring theme in a lot of my work. 00:04:30 - Speaker 2: And I remember seeing a little demo maybe of some of the, I don’t know if it was a prototype or a full open source tool, but essentially a visualizer that helps you better understand which CSS rules are being applied. Am I remembering that right? 00:04:43 - Speaker 1: Yeah, so that was both part of the prototype and the eventual implementation in Firefox, but the idea there is The syntax of CSS really elides the complexity, I think, because syntactically it looks like you have all of these independent properties like color, red, you know, font size, 16 pixels, and they seem to be all equally important and at the same level of nesting, I guess, and what that really hides is the fact that there are a lot of dependencies between properties, so a certain property like Z index, you know, the perennial favorite Z index 9999999. Doesn’t take effect unless the element has like position relative, for example, and it’s not at all apparent if you’re writing those two properties that there is a dependency between them. So I was working on visualizing kind of what those dependencies were. This actually arose because I wrote to Burt, who is one of the co-creators of CSS and was like, Hi, I’m interested in building a tool that visualizes these dependencies. Where can I find the computer readable list of all such dependencies? And he was like, oh, we don’t have one, you know, we have this SVG that tries to map out the dependencies between CSS 2.1 modules, and even there you can see all these circular dependencies, but we don’t have anything like what you’re looking for. That to me was totally bananas because it was the basic blocker to most people being able to go from writing really trivial CSS to more complicated layouts. So I was like, well, I guess this thing doesn’t exist, so I’d better go invent it. 00:06:12 - Speaker 2: Perfect way to find good research problems. Now, more recently, two projects I wanted to make sure we reference because they connect to what we’ll talk about today, which is recently worked on the equation editor at Ocean, and then you worked on a rich text CRDT called Paratext at In and Switch. Uh, would love to hear a little bit about those projects. 00:06:34 - Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. So I guess the Paroex project, which was the most recent one was collaboration with Jeffrey Litt, Martin Klutman and Peter Van Harperberg, and that one was really exciting because we were trying to build a CRDT that could handle rich text formatting and traditionally, you have all of these CRDTs that are designed for fairly bespoke applications. They’re things like a counter data type or a set data type that has certain behavior when you combine two sets, and we’re still at the stage of CRDT development where aside from things like JSON CRDTs like automerge, we don’t really have a one size fits all CRDT framework or solution. You still mostly have to hand design and implement the CRDT for a given application. And it turns out that in the case of something like rich text, it’s a lot harder than just saying, oh, you know, we’ll store annotations in an array and call it a day, because the semantics for how you want different types of formatting to combine when people split and rejoin sessions and things like that are all very complex and it turns out that we have a lot of learned behaviors that arise, even from just like, Design decisions in Microsoft Word, where you expect certain annotations to be able to extend, certain annotations to not extend, things like that. Capturing all of the nuance in that behavior turns out to be really difficult and requires a lot of domain specific thinking. But we think we have an approach that works and I would really encourage everyone to read the essay that we published and try to poke holes in it too. This was like the 5th version of the. algorithm, right? So like months ago, we were like, all right, let’s start writing and then Martin, who has just an incredible talent for these things is like, hey, everyone, you know, I found some issues with the approach and, you know, oh no, 00, and sort of we fix those, we’re like, all right, you know, this one’s good and just repeat this like week after week. So I really have to give him a ton of credit for both coming up with a lot of these problems and also figuring out ways to work around it. 00:08:33 - Speaker 2: We talked with Peter a little bit recently, Peter van Hardenberg, about the pencils down element of the lab, but also just research generally, which is there’s always more to solve, you know, it’s the classic XKCD, more research needed is always the end of every paper ever written, which is indeed the pursuit of the unknown. That’s part of what makes science and Seeking new knowledge, exciting and interesting, but at some point you do have to say we have a new quantum of knowledge and it’s worth publishing that. But then I think if it’s just straight up wrong or you see major problems that you feel embarrassed by, then if you want to invest more. 00:09:09 - Speaker 1: Right, exactly. I think in this case. There was a distinction between, there’s always more we can tack on versus we wanted to get it right, you know, and in particular, the history of both operational transforms or OT and CRDT for rich text, just text in general is such that it’s this minefield of I guess to use kind of a gruesome visual metaphor, just dead bodies everywhere. You’re like, oh, you know, such and such algorithm was published and it’s such and such time and it was new hotness for a while and then we realized, oh, it was actually wrong and this new paper came out which proved like 4 of the algorithms were wrong and so on. And so with correctness being such an important part of any algorithm, of course, but also kind of this white whale in the rich text field, we thought it was important to at least make a credible effort to having a correct algorithm. 00:09:57 - Speaker 2: Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, I can highly recommend the Paroex essay. One of the things I found interesting about it, maybe just for anyone who’s listening, whose head is spinning from all the specialized jargon here, CRDTs are a data structure for doing collaborative software, collaborative documents, and then, yeah, rich text, the Microsoft Word is the canonical example there. You can bold things, you can italic things, you can make things bigger and smaller. Well, part of what I enjoyed about this paper was actually that I felt, even if you have no interest in CRDTs, it has these lovely visualizations that show kind of the data representation of a sentence like the quick brown fox, and then if you bold quick, and then later someone else bolds fox, you know, how do those things merge together. But even aside from the merging and the collaborative aspect, which obviously is the research, the novel research here. I felt it gave me a greater understanding of just how rich text editing works under the hood, which I guess I had a vague idea of, but hadn’t thought about it so deeply. So, highly recommend that paper. Just give them the figures, even if you don’t want to read the thousands of words. 00:11:05 - Speaker 1: I’m glad you like the figures. They were a real labor of sigma. 00:11:08 - Speaker 2: Perfect, yeah, so. 00:11:10 - Speaker 1: The one thing I would add is that CRDTs are a technology for collaboration, but the way they differ from operational transforms or OTs is that a CRDT is basically designed to operate in a decentralized setting, so you don’t need a persistent network connection to all the parts. you don’t need a centralized server. The idea is you can fluidly recover from network partitions by merging all of the data and operations that happened while you were offline, and this turns out to be really important to our vision of how collaborative editing should work because we think it’s really important for people to be able to do things like not always be editing in the same document at the same time as everyone. Maybe I want to take some space for myself to write in private and then have my changes sync up with everyone else thereafter. Maybe I’m, you know, self-conscious about other people editing. are seeing my work in progress, but I think that it would be interesting and helpful to look at what the main document looks like and how that’s evolving while I’m working in private, and you can have that kind of one way visibility with something like a CRDT versus with something like Google Docs, where it’s just sort of always online or always not editing in your own personal editor. Conversely, maybe I’m OK with everyone else seeing the work that I’m doing in progress, but I just find it really visually jarring to have all these cursors and different colors jumping around and People inserting text, bumping my paragraphs down the page. I’ve definitely been there. I’m not particularly precious about people seeing my work in progress, but I just cannot focus on writing when the page is just changing all around me. So in that situation, maybe I would want to allow other people to see my work in progress, so that we don’t duplicate effort or something like that, but I just have like a focus mode where incoming changes don’t disrupt my writing environment and these kinds of fork join one way window. Microgit style branching paradigms are really only enabled by a technology like CRDTs where you have the flexibility to separate and then come back together. 00:13:12 - Speaker 2: And I’m incredibly excited by the design research that needs to go into that. Now at this point, I think we’re still on the technology level, you know, one way to think of it is Google Docs came along, I don’t know, 15, it’s almost 20 years ago now, I can’t even remember, let’s say 15 years ago, and this novel idea that We could both have a shared document or several people could have a shared document, all see the up to-date version and type into it and get, you know, a reasonable response or have that be coherent was an amazing breakthrough at the time and has since been kind of widely copied notion, Figma, many others. But now maybe we can go beyond that, much more granularity, like you said, maybe borrowing from the developer version control workflows a little bit in a lightweight way, giving a lot more control and flexibility, and giving us a lot more choices about how we want to work most effectively. But before we can even get onto those design decisions and how do we present all these different things to the user, what are the different options? We need this like fundamental underlying merge technology, hence the endless fascination that we have the lab and increasingly the technology industry generally has with CRDTs because it has the potential to enable all that. 00:14:23 - Speaker 1: Yeah, when we were working on the Paratax project, Peter was pushing really hard for, don’t make this just a technology project. It’s a socio-technical endeavor and we need to invest a lot of time in the design component, also just doing user interviews, identifying how people interact with and. How people collaborate in the status quo on text and Jeffrey and I actually did do a bunch of user interviews with people from all kinds of backgrounds. We’ve talked to people who write plays, people who produce a dramatic podcast kind of in this style of Night Vale. I love Night Vale. Yeah, people who are in the writer’s room kind of working together with their collaborators on that, people who write lessons, video lessons for educational platforms. And there was a ton of really interesting Insights into user behavior around collaborative text. We ended up just torn because we had this 12 week project and we were like, how should we best spend our time? Clearly, this is not just a technical area and we need to invest a lot in getting the design right, understanding what the design space even looks like since it hasn’t really been explored. I really want to avoid, and this is a recurring theme in my work, I really want to avoid publishing or shipping something. And having it be this like, very broad, very shallow exploration into all the things that are possible. I think that this kind of work plays an important role, and there are a lot of people who do this well, just fermenting the space of possibilities and getting these ideas in a lot of people’s heads, who can then go on and do really cool things with them. My personal style, I never want to feel like something is half baked, I guess, I would much rather ship this cohesive contribution like, here is an algorithm for building rich text. We think that this is a technical prerequisite to all of these interesting design choices, but the alternative with a 12 week period, and in fact, you know, this, the correctness and revision phase extended way over that. So thanks a lot to Martin and Jeffrey for leading during that part. But it’s just already so hard to get it correct that trying to tack on a really substantive design exploration that does the area justice on top of that, I was just really worried it would stretched too thin. So absolutely lots of room for future work in this particular. project. It’s very much a challenge in any area where you have simultaneously this rich design space that’s just asking to be explored with tons of prototypes and things like that, and then also to even realize the most simple of those prototypes, you require fundamentally new technology. 00:16:53 - Speaker 2: Yeah, I’ve been down that same path on many research projects as well, and often it’s that I’m excited for what the technology will enable, but also that in many cases it’s a combination, you know, some kind of peer to peer networking thing, but with that will enable us to provide a certain benefit to the user and I want to explore both of those things, but then that’s too much and then the whole thing is half baked exactly as you said. I’ve never found a perfect or even a good. Way to really manage that tradeoff. You just kind of pick your battles and hope for the best. Yeah, definitely. Well, I do want to hear about the equation editor project, but first I feel I should introduce our topic here, which I think folks could probably have gleaned is going to be rich text and rich text editing, and maybe we could just step back a moment and define that a little bit. I think we know that texts, you know, symbolic representation of language is a pretty key thing, writing and the printing press and all that sort of thing. We wrote about that a little bit in our text blocks memo, which I’ll like in the show notes. But typically, I think computers for a lot of their early time and even now with something like computer code is typically plain text, that’s the dot TXT file is kind of almost the native style of text that you have and then rich text typically layers something on top of that. I don’t know, so maybe you could better define rich text for us to have a more concrete discussion about it. 00:18:21 - Speaker 1: Yeah, I think rich text for most people basically evokes things like bold, italic, underline, the ability to augment plain text with annotations that are useful in formatting, actually, I think. Notepad to word pad is the archetypal jump in software, if you’re thinking about it from the old Windows perspective. In the past few years, I think we’ve started to see a real expansion of what rich text can look like. So, of course, we started out with something like Markdown, which is, of course, a plain text representation. But it’s designed to be able to capture more nuance in plain text and be rendered to something like HTML which very much supports rich text. So in Markdown, you have not only these kinds of inline formatting elements like bold and italic and hyperlinks as well. You also have support for images, which you could think of as more block level rich text elements, I guess, and I don’t think there’s a real clear consensus across editors on how block level rich text elements should be displayed. Of course, in between you have things like bulleted lists and those tend to be handled in a fairly standard manner with nested lists and so on, but it quickly becomes like a question of taste. Which kinds of annotations you support. So in editors like Coto or Notion, you have all these different block types where the block is really the atom of collaboration and editing, and then you can have things like, you know, file embeds or even database views, things like that. So I think we’re at a point now where both block-based editors, I’m using block based editors in like the text or writing sense, not the structured editors for programming sense, although I have other things to say about that, but we’re at a point where you’re starting to see these block-based editors appear and I think that there are a lot of really interesting patterns that this permits that the paragraphs via linear sequence of characters, including new lines and whitespace does not permit, or at least doesn’t allow you to build as structured tooling around. 00:20:30 - Speaker 2: I’m trying to think what is actually the core of the difference between a block-based editor, that’s a notion, a RO uses working on its own block text implementation and a flow of characters, so that’s Microsoft Word, Google Docs, maybe even text editors. I guess it’s sort of like paragraphs are separated by like these sort of nested. Elements or have a parent to the document versus like two new lines embedded in the stream of characters, but I don’t know, that seems too unsophisticated, maybe have a better definition for us. 00:21:03 - Speaker 1: So, I actually think about this very similarly to in the like programming languages and editor tools space. There is a distinction between structured editors and regular plain text editors for programs. The idea is that you might have a text-based programming language and you can write that perfectly fine in any buffer that allows you to put sequential characters, often AI is sufficient for some languages, and then on the other hand, These programs might have a lot of inherent structure. A simple example is with lisps which are built out of these parenthesis S expressions, everything is, you know, an S expression. You can think about like the structure of the tree formed by, I guess a forest, formed by having like these S expressions with subelements and stuff. that, and then you can do manipulations directly on the structure in a way that allows you to always have a syntactically correct program or at least a partial syntactically correct program by doing things like I’m just going to take this subtree, which is a sub-expression and move it somewhere else where there’s room for another subexpression. So, I think of block-based editors as capturing a very similar zeitgeist to structured editors for code, because instead of just having this linear buffer of characters that can have, you know, formatting or things like that, you can have new lines, you actually have more of a forest structure where you have lots of like individual blocks, and then you can have blocks that are children of other blocks and so on, and that allows you to Do things like move an entire subtree representing an outline to another position in the document without selecting all of the characters, you know, cut them and then paste them somewhere else. So things like reparenting becomes a lot easier, things like setting the background of an entire subtree becomes a lot easier. Just in general, you have more structure and there’s more things you can do with that structure, I guess is how I would phrase it. One of my favorite things that you can do with this model in notion is you can change the type of a block very easily. So let’s say I have a bullet list item, and then I hit enter and enter these like subnote or something like that as children of the initial bullet list item. I can turn the bullet list item into a page, and then all of a sudden it’s just a subpage in the document, and the sub bullets that were there before are just like top level bullets in that page. And this is particularly important for my workflow because I care a lot about starting out with something like really rough and sketchy and then progressively improving it or moving up and down the ladder of like fidelity into something more polished. So you might, for instance, start off with just an outline list or even a one dimensional list of to do blocks when you’re trying to do project planning or something. And then later on, let’s say I want to put these into like a tasks database with support for like a conbond view or something like that. I don’t actually want to sit there and like recreate all of these tasks in Jira. I’ve been there, you know, I’ve been the person making all the tasks in Jira after the meeting and then assigning them to people. What the workflow that I think notion is poised to enable and can certainly do a better job in this regard, but already offers some benefits on is like, can I just highlight all of these blocks because everything is a block, move them into some existing database and have them match the schema. That kind of like allowing people to do fast and loose prototyping with very unstructured primitives and then promote them into something more structured like in a relational database setting or similar, I think is the sweet spot, structured editing provides the sweet spot between like just completely unstructured text and these very high fidelity, high effort interfaces that allows you to kind of move between them. 00:24:47 - Speaker 3: Yeah, I really like that direction and framing, and if I can extend it a little bit, I think we can also look at a continuum of richness in terms of the content itself. So you have plain text, what you might classically call rich text with links and bold and underlying. And then you maybe start to throw a few images in, and then what if you can put it in videos and what if you have a whole table, and that table is actually a database query, and you can nest the figment document, and this way you can see that there’s sort of continuum on the richness of the document. One reason I think Notion has been so successful, they’ve been pushing along that continuum while maintaining a sort of foundation of rich textness, which is very familiar and the important basic use case for a lot of people. A related idea is that I think we’re seeing a lot of the classic document types converge. So if you look at a rich text like a Microsoft Word and a PowerPoint and increasingly spreadsheets, those all used to be 3 distinct Microsoft Office applications, and we’re seeing the value of them being in or being the same document. This is actually one of the motivating ideas behind Muse and a lot of the research we’ve done in the lab, and the kind of something Slim was saying, you want to take your idea continuously through different media and different modalities and different degrees of fidelity, and you don’t want to jump between different applications do that. You want to be able to do it on the same canvas. That’s by the way, one of the reasons I like Canvas. It’s not only because it’s a free multimedia surface, but also it evokes this idea of like flexibility and potentiality, and I think that’s one of the things that’s really excited about these mixed media documents. 00:26:16 - Speaker 2: And I know if Jeffrey were here, he might jump in and say that one downside to our current application silo world is that the only way to have this deeply rich text where it’s images, video, a table, a database query, something like that, is to have the Uber application, to have the everything app, and certainly notion has probably gotten pretty far on that, but others kind of in In some ways are forced to do that, like we have to do some of that in Muse as well. People come in and ask for all these different types here as well, and there’s more of like an open doc inspired or Unix inspired future that maybe Jeffrey and others, including me, would hope for, which would be more that applications could be these individual data types and you could put them all together through some kind of more operating system connection. But that is so completely reversed from kind of how all our computing devices work today. It’s hard to see how we might get to that. 00:27:14 - Speaker 3: Yeah, I’m certainly sympathetic to that concern, although I suspect the way out is through, and you get platforms from working killer apps. And so the way we got the whole unit ecosystem was they wanted to build a computer for, you know, writing and running programs and then eventually got all this generalized text processing stuff, but it’s not like they started in like, oh, I’m gonna make a generalized text processing machine. I don’t think that was really the way that they approached it and developed a success. So, I’m still hopeful we could do this, but I think you got to extract it from something that’s already working as an app, but it always helps to have an eye towards that, and I think we’ve done some of that with Muse. 00:27:46 - Speaker 1: I was just going to say that it’s not me talking about texts, unless I bring up my favorite piece of software of all time, which is Pandok. And I think that Pandok actually is very relevant to this discussion. So for those who aren’t as familiar with it, Panok brands itself as this Swiss Army knife for document formats, and it’s sort of headline contribution is that it allows you to convert between all kinds of documents. For instance, I can take a Word document and convert it to a PDF Word documents to something like, I don’t know, IPython notebook, Jupiter notebook, back and forth across this incredible bipartite graph of formats, but I think that the subtler contribution that Pandokc makes, which is extremely significant, is that Pandok has this form of markdown called Pandok markdown that essentially aligns and supersedes all of the different fragments of markdown that we’ve seen before. So the problem with markdown basically is that the original specification is sort of ill-defined. There are several cases in which the behavior is not super clear and then on top of that, it’s not very expressive. There aren’t very many constructs. So things like fenced code blocks, which many people associate very closely with Markdown today, that was only added by GitHubb flavored markdown, which is certainly widely used among the programming community, but not everyone is on GitHub, of course. And then you have things like table formatting or even like strike through really strike Through wasn’t defined in the original markdown specification either. And so you have markdown and then you have like GitHub flavored markdown, common mark is sort of this unifying effort remark down all these different is the markdown cinematic universe. I tried to make a joke about this. I had this joke ready for the markdown Cinematic universe when the last Marvel. Movie came out. But then like, it didn’t get nearly the traction in my timeline as the Dune did, perhaps understandably. So really, I’m just going to have to wait till the next movie comes out. It’s a real, real tragedy. No, but like, I guess you have this real pluralism of forms and it becomes very difficult to use markdown truly as a portable format because the way it renders in one editor or even parses can very much differ from editor to editor. So, Pandoc provides this format that essentially serves as an IR or intermediate representation between all these kinds of documents using a markdown supersets that somehow magically encapsulates everything. 00:30:18 - Speaker 2: And that includes not just markdown, but also like PDFs or Microsoft Word, that seems. 00:30:24 - Speaker 1: Well, so the way it works is it’s this compilation pipeline, I guess, that allows you to go from a markdown document. It compiles it to PDF using PDF Lawtech or something. It outputs Lawtech, it outputs HTML various things, and you can think of it as being this intermediate representation because you start with this like Word document, you can turn that into markdown and you can go from that markdown format into any of these output formats, which turns out to be like really powerful because the main issue with these kinds of conversions is that it’s often lossy, there are features that are supported by Law tech, for instance, that aren’t supported by the web natively, there are features that are part of like Word documents that aren’t necessarily supported by HTML and so on and so forth. So Pandok serves this role of like basically saying, OK, what is an intermediate language that can encapsulate all the different implementations of the same concept across different input and output formats. And what I think is so remarkable about it is that oftentimes when you are using an AP. of software and you’re like, oh darn, you know, now I need to support this other thing too. You quickly end up in a situation where you have the snowball and things start to feel tacked on. So you’re like, Oh man, it’s very clear that they just glommed on this additional syntax for this feature. And with Pandok, everything feels like very principled in its inclusion. And at the same time, whenever I’m using Pandok and I’m like, darn, I really wish there was a construct that I could use to express this. particular thing, I look up in the documentation and it’s always supported. So, as one of my favorite examples, one of the output formats that Handok supports is various slideshow frameworks. So Beamer for people who use Lawtech and Reveal JS for people who use HTML and CSS and these slideshow frameworks basically allow you to replace something like PowerPoint, Keynote, Google slides with essentially like a text-based format. I really like doing slideshows in Pandock markdown. There are a few reasons for that. The first reason is that it’s really useful to be able to reuse some of the same content from like my blog post or essay even in the slideshow. There are some really minor and almost petty, but really significant reasons. Like, I like to have equations or code blocks with syntax highlighting in my slideshows, and there’s not really a good solution to putting like a syntax highlighted code block in Keynote right now. 00:32:39 - Speaker 2: Last I remembered, the gold standard at the Ruby conferences I used to frequent was to take screenshot of Textmate and paste that in. 00:32:47 - Speaker 1: Yeah, it’s awful. I don’t want to see your like monochai editor with like the weird background that contrasts weirdly with the slide background. I just, ah, and it doesn’t scale on a huge conference display anyway, I digress, but The other reason why I really like doing my slideshows in text is actually that there is often a hierarchical structure to my presentations, right? I’ll have like these main top level sections and then I’ll have subsections, and then I’ll have like sub subsections and all of these manifest and slides. But in the gooey thumbnail view of most of these existing Slideshow editors like PowerPoint or Google slides, it reduces it all to like this linear list. It’s like, here are all of your thumbnails in order. And it makes it very hard, as soon as I have like an hour-long conference talk, how do I like jump to this subsection that I know exists, aside from like scrolling past like 117 thumbnails and trying to find the right one, right? And moreover, let’s say I want to Reorder a certain part of the talk because I think it better fits the narrative structure. Now I have to like figure out which thumbnails I need to drag to which other place or worse, go into the individual slide, select the text from that, move that somewhere else, and it’s just way, way clunkier actually than reordering some text in like a bullet list outline in my editor. And then the other part is that I was talking about how Pandok has really great support, expressive support for idioms of different formats, and one thing you often have in slideshows is that I have some element on the screen and then I press, you know, the next button again and then another element will appear. So in Pandoc you can denote this with just like an ellipsis basically so like dot dot dot and then if I have a slide where I have a paragraph and then the dot dot dot and then another paragraph, it will render with just the first paragraph visible and then I press next and then like the subsequent paragraph comes in. And that’s like just a very lightweight way to handle these stepped. Animations compared to going to the animation pane and then clicking the element that I want to animate in and so on and so forth. So it started off with me being like, I’ll just prototype in this format, but then it ended up supporting columns, it supports all these things that you actually want. And I was like, this is in many ways a more ergonomic way to handle long technical slideshows. Anyway, I have to chill for Pandok anytime I talk about rich text, I’m contractually obligated to do so. 00:35:08 - Speaker 2: Yeah, it’s a great piece of software, use it here and there. I think I was doing some Asky doc kind of manuals many years ago and yeah, just in general, it’s also worth looking at the homepage that you mentioned the plot they have where it shows all the different formats that can convert between is quite fun. You click on that, you can zoom in. 00:35:26 - Speaker 1: Yeah, I had this really elaborate plan when I decided to go to Berkeley, that I was going to print out a door-sized poster of like that graph that shows all the formats they convert between and then show up at John McFarlane’s door and ask him to sign it. But then the pandemic interfered with some of those plans. Nonetheless, it remains on my list. 00:35:48 - Speaker 2: Good bucket list item, pretty unique one at that. 00:35:51 - Speaker 1: Also, I found my tweet, or I found the draft of my tweet, which is about eternals, and I said, directed by Chloe Zhao, the latest entry in the Markdown Cinematic Universe features an ensemble cast of multi markdown, GitHubb flavored markdown, PHP Markdown Extra, R Markdown, and Common Mark as they joined forces in battle against mankind’s ancient enemy, Doc X. Nice. 00:36:12 - Speaker 2: Wow. You would have gotten the like from me. 00:36:16 - Speaker 1: Yeah, we’ll see if it ever sees the light of Twitter.com. 00:36:20 - Speaker 2: You briefly mentioned there equations and La tech, and maybe that’s a good chance to talk about the equation project you did for notion. And part of what I thought was so interesting or what I think in general is interesting about equations is that they are obviously an extremely important symbolic format, but in many ways extremely different from the pros we’ve been talking about. So English or other languages, even languages that are right to left or something like that, they all have the same kind of basic flow and the way that we represent sound. So with these little squiggly symbols, even though the symbols themselves and sounds vary and how we put them together into words across languages, that’s a common thing. If you go to the mathematical realm, you have symbolic representation, but equations are the whole own beast, and I think one that has gotten a lot less attention from kind of the software and editing world. So tell us about that rabbit hole. 00:37:16 - Speaker 1: Yeah, so just as context for people, notion and many other applications actually have long supported block equations, an equation that basically takes up, you know, most of the page horizontally. What is much more uncommon in editors is support for inline equations and so this can be something as simple as saying, You want to type let X be a variable, and X should be formatted or stylized mathematically. Being able to refer to elements of a block level equation in inline text is a prerequisite for being able to do any kind of serious mathematical writing, yet because this is kind of this niche area that has historically been the purview of Overleaf and other law tech editors, it’s really not implemented. In most editors. So I pushed really hard to add inline equations and inline math to notion, because I was like, there’s a huge opportunity for people to write scientific or mathematical documents that take advantage of all of notion’s other features like being able to embed FIMA or embed illustrations and things like that, right? So, it turns out that it’s kind of difficult, exactly as you’re describing to do this equation format. There’s been very little innovation and research more generally into what is like a good interface for inputting equations. So I think most people Probably familiar with Microsoft Word or Excel have these equation editors, or even like operating system level sometimes where you basically like open this palette, and there is a preview and there is a button for every possible mathematical symbol or operator you can imagine. And then for composite symbols like the fraction bar or integral or something like that, you find the button for that, you click it, and then you click into like the little subboxes and then you find whatever symbol you want and you put those there too. So it’s kind of a structured editor, but like in an unimaginably cumbersome interface. This is what I used to do my lab reports in high school, for example. And then at the other end of the spectrum, you have things like law tech. Law tech is basically how everyone in at least in computer science and mathematics chooses to typeset their work, typesets complex mathematics. One of the real selling points of law tech, I think is that It turns out that operator spacing is really important, and there’s a big difference between, say, a dash that’s used like a hyphen or a dash character that’s used in text, and a hyphen or a dash character that’s used as a minus sign in an equation, the spacing is subtly different. And one of the big things that Lawtech does is it basically allows you to declare certain operations in certain contexts as like a math operator versus just a symbol versus just like a tagged group of characters, and it correctly handles the spacing depending on what kinds of characters are around the operator in question. And so Lawtech basically produces really nice looking mathematics at the cost of this markdown which looks like I kind of smashed my keyboard that only had like 3 characters. It’s the exact opposite of the equation editors instead of having a button for every imaginable character, you only have 3 buttons. The buttons are backslash, open curly brace, and closed curly brace, and somehow like permuting those characters is supposed to get you like any possible mathematical outfit. There’s just two ends of the spectrum. 00:40:41 - Speaker 3: Yeah, I used to do my analysis homework in college in law tech, and I remember when I first looked up how you would input in law tech these formulas, like, that can’t be right. This is not the best way in the world to do this. In fact, that’s it, that’s the one and only way. 00:40:53 - Speaker 1: It really is, it’s terrifying. It’s the one and only way and the wild part is there are people who are like super, super good at law tech. They can like live tech their lecture notes. I was never nearly like that fast, but some people can do it usually with extensive use of macros, which macros are another selling point of law tech as you can define these kind of custom shorthand for operators you use a lot. But anyway, yeah, so you have a lot of tech sort of at the other end of the spectrum, like really quite unreadable, oftentimes, like, it’s like a right only format, many times. 00:41:23 - Speaker 2: And of a regular expressions come to mind on that as well, yeah. 00:41:26 - Speaker 1: It’s exactly the same zeitgeist, I think. It turns out that figuring out how to have like a combination, gooey, plain text interface that allows you to be like in a rich text editor like notion, then. into an inline equation field to have like an inline symbol and then go back into the GUI editor was like just very unexplored territory. And it kind of makes sense that lots of people don’t prioritize this because many people that notion rightfully had the question like, oh, is this something we should be working on? But first of all, it turned out that if you actually tallied up like our user requests, inline math was like near the top. Of editor feature based requests. And then more generally, it turns out that because this is like a prerequisite for many researchers and for students, you can get a lot of people on your platform who rely on it, you know, as a student to take notes and something like that, because there’s literally no alternative. And then they are able to stick around and use the platform for all kinds of other things. So this is just kind of a plug that more editors should implement this. But Yeah, I thought that this project was really interesting because in the interaction paradigm, you want to capture a lot of the things that are very fluid about editing regular text. So for instance, we knew it was important that you should be able to use the arrow keys to move left and right, kind of straight through a token without editing it if you wanted, or if you wanted to be able to go. Into a token and edit it using the arrow keys, you shouldn’t have to like use the mouse to click, although, of course, you should also be able to use the mouse to click. And when you have this formatted equation, we made the decision that the rendered equation would be represented as this atomic token. So if you were highlighting text to copy and paste and move around, it would be like highlighting a single character that would just be like the whole equation. But of course, you could go in and edit the equation. Any way you want it in kind of this pop up text editing interface. I think another thing that’s the subtle interface challenge here is that like Mark was saying, there is often a Uh, disproportionately large number of characters used to represent the equivalent of like one character with a formatted output. And so that’s something you don’t really take into account. The output is like X with a hat in San Sara font, and then there’s like 25 characters of markup that goes into that, and you just need to like scale the interface appropriately to take that into account. But I think that it’s really interesting because It shows the power of combining different input and output formats in like the same atom, right? So you have like a single line of text, and you want to have rich text that’s formatted and stylized and so on, hyperlinks, and then also equations or whatever inline rendered output of another input format that you have. I think that that’s really where GUI editors and whizzy wig editors can shine is being able to combine these like, Input formats and output formats like in the same line in Chu, yeah, I guess you can’t really do that at all with the terminal or something like that, and I say this as someone who uses like CLIIM for everything. 00:44:34 - Speaker 3: This is bringing back so many memories. I wish I had notion with equation support back when I was a math undergrad. It’s so nice. 00:44:41 - Speaker 1: I’m like the notion math stand guardian, I don’t know, something like that. And I’m always keeping track of like all the cool things people are doing using equations and notion. A lot of people are doing like math blogs in notion, which is really awesome for me to see. Also, I just feel like they’re having tried lots of other things. They’re just like really isn’t. A good alternative short of like actually writing lots like for your blog, which no one really likes. And yeah, I mean, certainly it’s the kind of thing that I implemented originally, kind of, I was like, I’m gonna do this for myself, and then realized that lots of people would be able to benefit from it. It’s been really cool to see a bit of reception it gets, like the inline math tweets on the notion, uh Twitter account overwhelmingly get the most engagement and interaction. And initially, like the marketing team was shocked. They thought this would be the super niche feature, but no, it turns out that people love math and like, they may not be the most vocal proponents or they’re used to no one caring about math type setting, things like that. For a while, I think it was the case that when I did find an editor that had support for equations of some kind, to me, it was overwhelmingly obvious that the people who implemented it did not regularly use equations for writing. I think you can often tell that with different features. So I think that having that kind of Representation is not quite the right word, but being able to see a feature that was designed by someone who really cares about using it themselves is really cool for people who are interested in typesetting, students, researchers, people who are interested in typesetting more mathematical text. 00:46:11 - Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it’s really important, like you were saying that it’s mixed media because you’re combining the equations, the inline equation and the block equation, by the way, in the world class form, which is a lot tech based with a world class rich text editor with text and images and stuff. It’s really nice. I do think there’s still one frontier here, especially for math, which is the fully gradual process from you’re taking handwritten notes and you’re working out a problem and you’re drawing squiggly diagrams all the way up through your finished homework. I remember when I was at math undergrad. I would basically have to do the homework twice. You do it once on paper. Nobody could read that, including myself, so that, you know, do it in lot again. And I always wish there was a way to do it incrementally. You sort of changed equation by equation and diagram by diagram into the final product. And I know there has been some research on uh turning equations into lot tech formulas with machine learning. I don’t know if I can do handwriting, but perhaps someday we’ll get the new support for equations and you can go all the way to the end. 00:47:02 - Speaker 1: Yeah, like you, I share exactly the same frustration that you have to essentially do lots of things twice, and the relative position of everything is ambiguous, and Lawtech is what allows you to do things like have subscripts of subscripts, which would be really inscrutable in most people’s handwriting, including my own, and, you know, subscripts of subscripts along with super scripts and things like that. There are just so many ambiguous details and it turns out in my experience with like, anything that tries to automate the transition is that I always end up Going through and like really rewriting all of the details to be structured in a readable way. You have this other problem which back in the days of like Wizzy Wig web editors like Dreamweaver and Microsoft Front Page and things like that, you would often end up with this problem where you try to do like any edit in the Wizzy Wig side and then you look at the generated HTML and it’s ridiculous. There’s just like 16 nested empty span tags, and no one would ever be able to maintain that. And my worry is basically that when you automatically create Markup for something that has a very complex graphical representation, it’s really like one way, you know, maybe it will help you produce a compiled output, but it doesn’t actually help you go back in and like edit and tweak the representation later or it’s just so inscrutable if you do that it’s kind of also a reg x type situation. I think we really need to get to some kind of like good intermediate representation that allows you to flexibly go both ways. And that goes back to something that I think Adam and I were chatting about earlier, which is that a lot of people gripe and complain that like law tech is the best we have and, you know, I’m one of them, but It really is the case that, you know, lottech was just this like monumental effort by really a few people and amount of effort that would be like considered really impressive if I were to try to do the same thing but better today and not a lot of people just have like spare time to do this all in one text formatting, packaging, document representation project, even though it would have huge impact on the way people write and publish these kinds of documents. And so in many ways we’re sort of just bottlenecked on the fact that It’s hard to do incremental improvements to this particular area. We really depend on these like software monoliths to keep us afloat. 00:49:19 - Speaker 2: I’m not nearly as mathy as either of you, but I can’t help but make the comparison on these equation editing to what you mentioned earlier with kind of structured editors and programming, where whether there’s lightweight help from your text editor, things like code folding, syntax highlighting and autocomplete, or full structured editing, some of the visual programming stuff we talked about with Maggie Appleton, like Scratch, for example, or these flow based systems that are fully graph. and you sort of can’t have it in a bad state. And I can’t help but to think there might be some direction like that that is not necessarily the right only inscrutable tech, but is not the Microsoft Word one button literally for every symbol you might ever want. It does seem like there might be some other path, and yeah, I agree it’s a monumental effort, but I mean, mathematics is so important and foundational and so much of human endeavor that certainly seems like one worth investing in, although perhaps hard to reap a profit from, and that makes it harder to put concentrated capital behind it. 00:50:20 - Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that there’s definitely very clear demand for I think something exactly like what you’re describing, which is somewhere in between the two extremes, and it is really relevant because ACM, which is the Association for Computing Machinery, the academic and professional body really for computer science, they are currently undergoing this. Fiasco, maybe, I probably shouldn’t go on the record as calling it a fiasco. The ACM is currently undergoing this initiative called TAPS, which is the ACM Publishing System, where they are attempting to revise the template by which all computer science research is published and disseminated, and the idea behind this is that right now, computer science research is published to these PDFs. Initially they were all two column PDFs, now I think there’s some one column PDFs. They want to output HTML as the archival format for various reasons, including that it offers much better reading experience on different screen widths, so like phones or tablets, which are increasingly how people are reading papers, not just printed out. And they are much more accessible than PDFs. PDFs are just like really quite inaccessible, especially to screen readers and other assistive technologies that are trying to parse out all the different math or whatever arbitrary formatting you’ve decided to use. The upshot of this, I guess, is that there are currently a group of very smart people who are trying to figure out how in the world we’re going to get people to start writing all of their papers and outputting them in a different format, in a world where everyone is already used to preparing. Their publications and preprints in law tech. And turns out that even if you solve the problem of like what the input syntax should be, rendering math in the browser is like an extremely unsolved problem. 00:52:05 - Speaker 3: Yeah, isn’t the state of the art that it like generates PNG and sticks it in the web page? 00:52:09 - Speaker 1: Not exactly, but like almost. OK. So MathML, which is like an XML dialect or like mathematical markup language, was this effort to build. HTML XML style syntax for typesetting mathematics. Naturally, it is only implemented in Firefox, so that’s really unfortunate. So in terms of the state of the art, there are basically two libraries that you can use to typeset mathematics. There’s math Jack and Caltech. Mathjax supports basically all valid law tech, including, you know, different. Environments and equations and things like that. The problem is that Mathjacks is very slow. So if you ever go on math overflow or another like related stock exchange and you see like all of these answers with like weird gaps, and then as you watch before you, the page starts to like load all of the rendered equations like bumping everything down one level at a time. That’s math Jackson action. And oftentimes it is doing what you’re describing where it is outputting like an SBG or a PNG or something like that, and it’s just like reflowing the page with every equation. So then you have Caltech, which was a library developed at Konn Academy where they realized that math Jack’s performance was basically just like not satisfactory for their exercises and things like that. Sootte supports a much more limited subset of all of Law tech syntax, but it does it all using CSS basically, and it doesn’t reflow the page for every equation. It’s basically instant surrender. So tech is what we use at Notion, it’s also what’s used in like Facebook Messenger, which supports equations if you ever tried that, and many other websites, and basically it means that your options, if you want to render math are only target Firefox. Use a limited subset of math that’s supported by Kottech and Consign yourself to like extremely slow, dozens of reflow, full expressive power rendering to inline PNG’s. And so that’s just not like a great situation to be in, and we haven’t even gotten to the question of like how people write math. So I would say that people underestimate like how open this problem spaces. 00:54:17 - Speaker 3: Yeah, man. 00:54:19 - Speaker 1: Just take a moment of silence to like recognize the gravity of the situation. 00:54:23 - Speaker 3: This is an aside, I don’t know if you want to put this in the episode, but now I’m curious. It sounds like both of those are interpreted in the sense that the equations are rendered at load time instead of being compiled down to some like HTML and CSS that you can render without JavaScript. Like, basically, do you need JavaScript to render these pages? 00:54:39 - Speaker 1: Yeah, basically, I should say you also need JavaScript, unless you’re doing the pre-compied to MathML and then hope that people are using Firefox. 00:54:47 - Speaker 3: Man, I feel like there’s no way that that stuff loads in 10 years, but we’ll see. 00:54:52 - Speaker 1: I actually had this exact argument, again, I don’t know if you want to put this in the episode. I had this exact argument with Jonathan Aldrich, who’s on the taps committee when we were talking about this, and I think the point was not so much that you can guarantee that the artifact loads. Exactly the same way in 10 years, but that the representation is rich enough that one could feasibly build software that renders it the same way in 10 years. So it’s more about the fidelity of the like underlying representation where like a team of, I guess, digital, you know, archaeologists could recover the work that we were doing and not so much like we trust in the vendors to like keep everything stable, which is obviously never going to happen. You know, the only reason like PDFs are stable is because how many trillions of dollars of IP depend on being able to load the PDF the same way as it was written, you know, 30 years ago. 00:55:45 - Speaker 3: Yeah, interesting. 00:55:46 - Speaker 1: Nice. Going back to this idea earlier that Mark mentioned of the spectrum of like plain text, rich text, Wizzy wig editors. One recurring theme for me is thinking about decoupling this spectrum into like what is the format and then what are like the editors and tools that we can use to interact with this format, so they structured, unstructured, etc. I want to call outAR, which is a native application for Mac OS and iOS that does a really great job with this, which is that Bear is basically Something in between a whizzy wig and a plain text editor in that you’re always editing markdown documents and indeed, when you have something that’s bold, you can see the like asterisks around it that delimits that character. But all of these standard, you know, Control B, U, editor shortcuts work as you would expect. And more importantly, you can see like the formatting applied in real time. So That when you do star star, hello star star, he suddenly becomes bold face in this gooey. And so in many ways it combines like the fluidity and the real-time preview of a rich text editor or previewer with the flexibility of like ultimately just writing plain text characters. And I think this is like really unexplored area. I don’t just mean something like Open VS code or VIM and type characters and then see like different formatting labels attached to the results. I mean like a native application that’s really designed like for end use or end users, that doesn’t fully obscure the input syntax but does real time rendering in place. It’s not even like in monospace font, right? It makes it feel much more like this is actually the output that you’re targeting. And not just like an input step that needs to be pre-processed. I think that there is a lot of room for applications that are kind of in between and in that same spaces where it doesn’t entirely obscure what you are writing, but it does give you a lot of the benefits of previewing things and having like a GUI application outside of the terminal in terms of like capturing the richness of the possible results. 00:57:52 - Speaker 3: Yeah, I like the bear approach a lot. Now, are there particular domains or types of documents that you think would be susceptible to this approach, or it just for rich tech specifically? 00:58:01 - Speaker 1: So I was making a list of like all of the different traditionally graphical outputs that have corresponding plain text representations and a lot of them I was thinking about, for example, in engraving sheet music, right, traditionally you would use a desktop program like Finae or Sibelius nowadays you have options like new score and flat, which are more web-based editors, but you see the staff and you click notes. In the staff like corresponding to where you want the note, and you know you use the quarter note or the 8th note cursor to pick the duration and so on. And then at the other end of the spectrum you have Lily Pond, which is kind of like law tech I guess for engraving sheet music where you type a very like law tech-esque syntax and out comes, you know, beautifully typeset sheet music. For me this