Podcasts about svg

SVG made the field look like amateurs, and there's plenty to talk about from that.  We look into it and more! Visit the Daily Downforce at dailydownforce.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The boys discuss the race in Mexico city, SVG and Fantasy

With the birth of his third child, Denny Hamlin missed Sunday's race and is spending time with his family. Instead, Jared Allen and producer Travis took a look at their preseason predictions and discuss if SVG will get another win, who's been the biggest surprise, and who's had the most disappointing season. Plus, they chat about how they think Denny will perform at Fanatics Fest on Friday.And for those who miss Denny, don't worry, he will be back on Monday after Pocono. Dirty Mo Media is launching a new e-commerce merch line! They've got some awesome Actions Detrimental merch on the site. Visit shop.dirtymomedia.com to check out all the new stuff.For more Actions Detrimental content: https://www.youtube.com/@ActionsDetrimental FanDuel Disclaimer: Must be 21+ and present in select states (for Kansas, in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino) or 18+ and present in D.C. First online real money wager only. $5 first deposit required. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable bonus bets which expire 7 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut, or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit GamblingHelpLineMA.org or call (800) 327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 1-877-8HOPE-NY or text HOPENY in New York.

Kyle Robert and Brian Twining get you set for the Great American Getaway 400 as NASCAR takes to the tricky triangle.Kyle and Brian run through the Great American Getaway 400 betting board to see if there is any value prior to practice and qualifying. The guys run through Caesars, Fanduel and BetMGM! They look at outrights, placings and head to head matchups for Pocono. But first they recap the week that was from Mexico. They talk SVG dusting the field. strategy calls and more. Plus they recap the betting card and DraftKings lineups.As a reminder, use code AOP25 for a 100% match deposit up to $100. While you are there make sure you join the COMPLETELY FREE listeners league!https://t.co/EXWgnKQpzsSubscribe to the Green White Checkered our FREE newsletter on Substack for more picks and bets every race day.https://aoppodcast.substack.com/Make sure you tune into The Draft every Wednesday from our friends Win the Race. Make sure to subscribe to their YouTube channel while you are there.https://www.youtube.com/@WINTHERACEP100:00 Intro05:02 Viva Mexico 250 DFS and Betting Recap14:18 Pocono Outright Odds and Targets38:15 Pocono Placings, Head to Heads, and More46:33 Pocono Betting Card Recap

The DBC gang is back from Mexico and welcome in racing journalist Matt Weaver to break down an unforgettable weekend of racing, wild stories from the road, and one electric win for Daniel Suárez. Freddie shares his travel tales—tequila shots, scorpion shooters, and just enough chaos to keep things interesting.They dig into everything from SVG's late-race charge to Connor Zilisch's bold moves, Carson Hocevar stirring things up again, and a restart that sent everyone into the grass. Reaction Theatre delivers some all-time calls—one involving puking through your nose and another with a little too much detail on Stenhouse's form.The group debates the value of international races, what NASCAR can take from this event, and how it could be even better in the future. Whether it's chaos on the track or chaos on the mic, this one's packed from start to finish.Timestamps21:36 - Spot On/Off58:53 Reaction Theatre1:04:25 #AskDBCCatch all the grassroots racing action live with FloRacing. Learn more or sign up at flosports.link/dbc1Must be 21+ and present in select states (for Kansas, in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino) or 18+ and present in D.C. First online real money wager only. $5 first deposit required. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable bonus bets which expire 7 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut, or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit GamblingHelpLineMA.org or call (800) 327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 1-877-8HOPE-NY or text HOPENY in New York. Want more DBC? Check out and subscribe to the new DBC YouTube channel!

Buckle up for an electrifying episode as we dive into the NASCAR Cup Series' historic Viva Mexico 250 at Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez! Shane van Gisbergen (SVG) delivered a divine performance, dominating the field by a jaw-dropping 16.567 seconds—the largest margin of victory since 2009.From battling illness and travel woes to mastering a rain-soaked track, SVG's epic win secured his 2025 playoff spot and earned him the title of "SVJesus" in this thrilling international showdown. Join us for hot takes, driver reactions, and why Mexico City might just be SVG's holy ground... LFG!

Mac & Bone start Monday's show, talking about JJ Spaun's historic comeback at the 125th US Open, and a dominant win for SVG in Mexico City, they react to comments made by UNC football GM Michael Lombardi, who discussed the Jordon Hudson impact on the program's perception, before they play the best audio from the weekend See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We first reported on Evan You's company void0 back in October, 2024, and now Evan and co are making good on their promise to rework the entire JS toolchain from the ground up with the release of Rolldown-Vite. The new package is a drop-in replacement for the Vite bundler we all know and love, with benefits like production build time reductions of up to 16x and memory usage decreases of up to 100x. Replacement is easy and the perf gains are real. Try it today.Apple just held WWDC25 and announced big updates in Safari 26 beta. Favicons get replaced with SVG icons, any website can be a web app on iOS and iPadOS, there's a brand new HTML element for visionOS, CSS anchor positioning for popovers is supported as well as scroll-driven animations, and much more. Suffice it to say, Safari's got some slick new features under the hood. The jury is still very much out on the gooey, glassmorphic UI design that Apple also unveiled at WWDC, however.The Browser Company, who made the niche, but well liked Arc browser, has been working on a new AI-first browser called Dia, and this week it's available early access for Arc Members. At first glance Dia feels similar to other “agentic” browsers, giving users a chat input and the ability to chat about content in tabs or links, but it also shows off skills like connecting to calendars to schedule meetings or composing text that can be inserted into emails. We'll report back after we've had a chance to test Dia out for a bit.Chapter markers:1:00 - void0's Rolldown-Vite5:52 - Safari 26 beta21:26 - Dia, the new AI-browser from The Browser Company29:38 - Cursor raises $900 million Links:Paige - void0's Rolldown-ViteJack - Dia, the new AI-browser from The Browser CompanyTJ - Safari 26 betaLightning News:Cursor raises $900 millionWhat Makes Us Happy this Week:Paige - Paradise TV seriesJack - Ballerina movie TJ - Apple Vision Pro on The Price is RightThanks as always to our sponsor, the Blue Collar Coder channel on YouTube. You can join us in our Discord channel, explore our website and reach us via email, or talk to us on X, Bluesky, or YouTube.Front-end Fire websiteBlue Collar Coder on YouTubeBlue Collar Coder on DiscordReach out via emailTweet at us on X @front_end_fireFollow us on Bluesky @front-end-fire.comSubscribe to our YouTube channel @Front-EndFirePodcast

With Smoke out on vacation, Kyle and Shroppy recap the busy weekend of sports. J.J. Spaun gets a victory in the US Open, SVG dominates in Mexico, and the NBA Finals Game 5 takes place tonight.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Pwn2Own 2025, Berlin results. PayPal seeks a "newly registered domains" patent. An expert iOS jailbreak developer gives up. The rising abuse of SVG images, via JavaScript. Interesting feedback from our listeners. Four classic science fiction movies not to miss. How OpenAI's o3 model discovered a 0-day in the Linux kernel Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1028-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: material.security outsystems.com/twit bigid.com/securitynow bitwarden.com/twit joindeleteme.com/twit promo code TWIT

Pwn2Own 2025, Berlin results. PayPal seeks a "newly registered domains" patent. An expert iOS jailbreak developer gives up. The rising abuse of SVG images, via JavaScript. Interesting feedback from our listeners. Four classic science fiction movies not to miss. How OpenAI's o3 model discovered a 0-day in the Linux kernel Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1028-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: material.security outsystems.com/twit bigid.com/securitynow bitwarden.com/twit joindeleteme.com/twit promo code TWIT

Pwn2Own 2025, Berlin results. PayPal seeks a "newly registered domains" patent. An expert iOS jailbreak developer gives up. The rising abuse of SVG images, via JavaScript. Interesting feedback from our listeners. Four classic science fiction movies not to miss. How OpenAI's o3 model discovered a 0-day in the Linux kernel Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1028-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: material.security outsystems.com/twit bigid.com/securitynow bitwarden.com/twit joindeleteme.com/twit promo code TWIT

Pwn2Own 2025, Berlin results. PayPal seeks a "newly registered domains" patent. An expert iOS jailbreak developer gives up. The rising abuse of SVG images, via JavaScript. Interesting feedback from our listeners. Four classic science fiction movies not to miss. How OpenAI's o3 model discovered a 0-day in the Linux kernel Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1028-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: material.security outsystems.com/twit bigid.com/securitynow bitwarden.com/twit joindeleteme.com/twit promo code TWIT

Pwn2Own 2025, Berlin results. PayPal seeks a "newly registered domains" patent. An expert iOS jailbreak developer gives up. The rising abuse of SVG images, via JavaScript. Interesting feedback from our listeners. Four classic science fiction movies not to miss. How OpenAI's o3 model discovered a 0-day in the Linux kernel Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1028-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: material.security outsystems.com/twit bigid.com/securitynow bitwarden.com/twit joindeleteme.com/twit promo code TWIT

Pwn2Own 2025, Berlin results. PayPal seeks a "newly registered domains" patent. An expert iOS jailbreak developer gives up. The rising abuse of SVG images, via JavaScript. Interesting feedback from our listeners. Four classic science fiction movies not to miss. How OpenAI's o3 model discovered a 0-day in the Linux kernel Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1028-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: material.security outsystems.com/twit bigid.com/securitynow bitwarden.com/twit joindeleteme.com/twit promo code TWIT

Pwn2Own 2025, Berlin results. PayPal seeks a "newly registered domains" patent. An expert iOS jailbreak developer gives up. The rising abuse of SVG images, via JavaScript. Interesting feedback from our listeners. Four classic science fiction movies not to miss. How OpenAI's o3 model discovered a 0-day in the Linux kernel Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1028-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: material.security outsystems.com/twit bigid.com/securitynow bitwarden.com/twit joindeleteme.com/twit promo code TWIT

Pwn2Own 2025, Berlin results. PayPal seeks a "newly registered domains" patent. An expert iOS jailbreak developer gives up. The rising abuse of SVG images, via JavaScript. Interesting feedback from our listeners. Four classic science fiction movies not to miss. How OpenAI's o3 model discovered a 0-day in the Linux kernel Show Notes - https://www.grc.com/sn/SN-1028-Notes.pdf Hosts: Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte Download or subscribe to Security Now at https://twit.tv/shows/security-now. You can submit a question to Security Now at the GRC Feedback Page. For 16kbps versions, transcripts, and notes (including fixes), visit Steve's site: grc.com, also the home of the best disk maintenance and recovery utility ever written Spinrite 6. Join Club TWiT for Ad-Free Podcasts! Support what you love and get ad-free shows, a members-only Discord, and behind-the-scenes access. Join today: https://twit.tv/clubtwit Sponsors: material.security outsystems.com/twit bigid.com/securitynow bitwarden.com/twit joindeleteme.com/twit promo code TWIT

In this week's edition of Risky Business Dmitri Alperovitch and Adam Boileau join Patrick Gray to talk through the week's news, including: EXCLUSIVE: A Scattered Spider-style crew is hijacking DNS MX entries and compromising enterprises within minutes The SVG format brings the all horrors of HTML+JS to image files, and attackers have noticed Brian Krebs eats a 6.3Tbps DDoS … ‘cause that's how you demo your packet cannon Law enforcement takes out Lumma Stealer, Qakbot, Danabot and some dark web drug traffickers Iranian behind 2019 Baltimore ransomware mysteriously appears in North Carolina and pleads guilty CISA's leadership is fleeing in droves, even though the US needs them more than ever. This week's episode is sponsored by Thinkst Canary. Long time friend of the show Haroon Meer joins and talks through where he feels the industry is at, having just returned home from the AI-fueled hype at this year's RSA conference. This episode is also available on Youtube. Show notes China-linked ‘Silk Typhoon' hackers accessed Commvault cloud environments, person familiar says - Nextgov/FCW Risky Bulletin: SVG use for phishing explodes in 2025 - Risky Business Media KrebsOnSecurity Hit With Near-Record 6.3 Tbps DDoS – Krebs on Security Midwestern telco Cellcom confirms cyber incident after days of service outages | The Record from Recorded Future News Microsoft leads international takedown of Lumma Stealer | Cybersecurity Dive Who said what? on X: "Message from the administrator of Lumma Stealer on the forums about the recent events

SVG Steganography Steganography is not only limited to pixel-based images but can be used to embed messages into vector-based formats like SVG. https://isc.sans.edu/diary/SVG%20Steganography/31978 Fortinet Vulnerability Details CVE-2025-32756 Horizon3.ai shows how it was able to find the vulnerability in Fortinet s products, and how to possibly exploit this issue. The vulnerability is already being exploited in the wild and was patched May 13th https://horizon3.ai/attack-research/attack-blogs/cve-2025-32756-low-rise-jeans-are-back-and-so-are-buffer-overflows/ Remote Prompt Injection in GitLab Duo Leads to Source Code Theft An attacker may leave instructions (prompts) for GitLab Duo embedded in the source code. This could be used to exfiltrate source code and secrets or to inject malicious code into an application. https://www.legitsecurity.com/blog/remote-prompt-injection-in-gitlab-duo

A major exodus of leadership is underway at CISA, the US government will audit NIST over its vulnerability backlog; an ancient and mysterious APT has been linked to Spain's government, and the SVG image format is great for phishing. Show notes

The guys are back this week to talk hypocrite...ahem..Joey Logano and Christopher Bell's thrilling battle to the finish of the 2025 all-star race. Plus, we talk SVG's strategy blunder, Team Penske's major Indianpolis penalty, and much more this week on the Fake Racers Podcast!

Episode 53: Nascar, IndyCar and Formula 1 with a dash of Supercars. Penske is getting a bad name and is there a conflict of interest with Roger owning pretty much everything?! SVG cracked some pace on an oval but CBell got the win. Max did Max things in Imola and the Indy 500 grid is set! Get yaself some AHU merch: https://apexhuntersunited.com/ Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/ApexHuntersUnited Discount code: AHU15 for 15% off at: https://www.eastcoastcarrentals.com.au/ http://www.lancastermotors.com.au/ https://www.tricoproducts.com.au/ https://www.shawandpartners.com.au/home Quad Lock: https://bit.ly/3QLeiV5 Z Motorsport Memorabilia: https://www.zmm.com.au/ #supercars #v8supercars

The Sports Desk. Riccardo has compiled some of the sports action from around the world, so you don't have to do the digging including, SVG at NASCAR, the IndyCar contingent, Formula 1, Serie A, PGA Championship & more Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Scott and Wes sit down with Cassie Evans of GSAP to talk all things animation—from SVGs and scroll timelines to GSAP's new rebrand and exciting features. They also dig into performance, plugins, and what makes GSAP such a powerful tool for web developers. Show Notes 00:00 Welcome to Syntax! 00:59 What is GSAP? Cassie Codes. 01:53 GSAP Rebranding. 04:44 GSAP under the hood. 05:29 The big announcement! 07:19 GSAP Showcase. 11:01 Brought to you by Sentry.io. 11:26 Why is GSAP easier for animations? GSAP Docs. 12:38 Animating with SVGs. 13:33 The love of SVG. 14:55 GSAP is performant. 16:06 Gotchas to watch out for. 18:12 Does GSAP work with canvas? 19:02 What GSAP projects are you most proud of? 20:30 Does it play nice with web frameworks? GSAP with React. 22:32 What are you excited about in CSS right now? Scroll Timeline. 24:27 Will any of these make their way into GSAP? 26:31 Timelines. 29:24 Building animations with timelines. 34:55 What are the best GSAP plugins? Split Text spanran-wrap. Physics 2D Plugin. 38:44 GSAP docs and philosophy. 39:50 Scrubbing animations by frame. 41:09 GSAP Video Exporter. 41:45 Animating with JavaScript. 45:19 JavaScript in unconventional applications. 47:56 Is there anything missing in web tech? 50:53 What about AI in GSAP? 52:40 Sick Picks + Shameless Plugs. Sick Picks Cassie: Eyesy Video Synthesis. Shameless Plugs Cassie: Smashing Conf. Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

PM claims Chinese and European RCBI firms backing NDP to gain access to SVG's high-ranking passport through a new CBI program.View the full article here.Subscribe to the IMI Daily newsletter here.

Episode #220 - In the latest episode of The Presentation Podcast, Troy and Nolan delve into everything PowerPoint and vector. What does PowerPoint consider a vector graphic? What types of vector files does PowerPoint recognize? What are PowerPoint limitations with vector graphics? This episode is a treasure trove of insights, practical tips, and expert advice on leveraging vector graphics, particularly .SVGs, for great presentation design. Have a listen to see where the conversation goes!   Full Episode Show Notes https://thepresentationpodcast.com/2025/e220   Show Suggestions? Questions for your Hosts? Email us at: info@thepresentationpodcast.com   Listen and review on iTunes. Thanks! http://apple.co/1ROGCUq   New Episodes 1st and 3rd Tuesday Every Month  

Igalia's Brian Kardell chats with Chris Lilley, Technical Director at the W3C, about his long history with the Web and the W3C, ranging from line-mode browsers to CSS to SVG and more.

In this Risky Business News sponsor interview, Catalin Cimpanu talks with Josh Kamdjou, co-founder and CEO of Sublime Security. Josh goes over recent trends in email badness, such as the increase in QR code abuse and the rise of SVG smuggling. Show notes Scripting Vector Grifts: SVG phishing with smuggled JS and adversary in the middle tactics Base64-encoding an SVG attack within an iframe and hiding it all in an EML attachment

Today I'm interviewing Bail from @JustOneMoreProject. This mom of 2 went from curious about Cricut to rocking SVGs with her Glowforge.  Bail left her corporate job to be with her girls. When she launched her Etsy shop to sell SVG files in the middle of a pandemic she discovered her true purpose as a creative entrepreneur. In this episode, she fills us in on Cricut vs. Glowforge from a designer's perspective.EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/a-designer-s-take-on-glowforge-with-bail-from-just-one-more-projectThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

Ever wish you could find one product design that you could just sell over and over again, without having to start from scratch each time when it comes to design concepts?  This is exactly what Marie from Glow Your Design did. She had a few handmade shops selling physical products that she would send to buyers, this eventually led her to selling digital SVG files so after launching her shop in 2021, she was able to hone in on her customer, offer custom orders, set her products apart from the competition, and all this led to 10,000 in sale orders. So there's definitely a lot I think you all will take away from this episode, without further ado, let's dive into the episode with Marie...EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/how-over-serving-failure-and-one-digital-product-type-led-to-10-000-in-sale-orders-on-etsy-with-marie-canadayThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

The laser cutting machine is on the rise in the crafters' market and as SVG designers we need to stay on top of this growing industry. That is why, in this episode, I am sharing with you the action steps for staying on top and riding the Glowforge wave. You also don't want to miss out on two resources I have for you when creating SVG files for Glowforge.EPISODE NOTES:https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/are-svg-designers-ready-for-glowforge-and-other-laser-cutting-machinesThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

It's that time again! This episode has become a tradition and my favorite. I'm constantly watching and looking for the trends to help my own business so I have a nose for what direction things are heading in. Are you ready to hear my 2022 SVG trends and predictions? If you don't want to get left behind, click the link and listen in as I cover which 2021 predictions came true and what you should be selling this year!EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/svg-predictions-and-cut-file-trends-of-2022Thanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

If you run in SVG circles then you know about Etsy, but in this episode, we're talking about Design Bundles and we're comparing the two. My guest, Aubrey Tate, has seen great success in her Etsy shop but about six months ago she decided to open a shop on a second platform. She's spilling the tea on all the similarities and differences plus I asked if she has a favorite. Grab your earbuds and click play to listen in as Aubrey shares the deets on both platforms. EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/selling-on-design-bundles-vs-etsy-with-aubrey-tateThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

How many platforms are you on? Many online entrepreneurs feel pressure to be everywhere at all times, but that is the opposite of what you should be doing.  So, how many social media platforms should you be on? What about when a new platform launches? Should you jump on the bandwagon? In this episode, I'm sharing my own experiences and what has worked for me. Plus a secret about what I did in social media when I first started as an SVG designer. Tune in to get the formula for using social media to help you grow your business. EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/avoiding-squirrel-marketing-moments-part-1Thanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

Every time I hear it, I just cringe!  In my eleven years of online marketing, there hasn't been a single area where I didn't hear someone claim that the market was oversaturated and it would be hard to be successful. Recently I've heard the same things about the SVG space. In this episode, I'm answering those burning questions. Plus we'll look at the numbers, and sprinkle some mind shift strategies in there for good measure. If you're in the SVG design area let me show you how wrong those naysayers are. Grab your earbuds and click play. EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/is-the-svg-market-too-saturatedThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

Ever wish you could get a behind-the-scenes look inside your buyer's mind? Well, if you're an SVG designer, don't miss this episode with Heidi Harrison. Heidi is a cutting industry pro who cuts vinyl decals and creates t-shirts for her customers. But this week, she's sharing what she looks for when buying SVG cut files. Heidi's unique position as seller and buyer means you get actionable insider advice. Tune in and discover how to give your design customers what they need and make even more sales.EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/a-bts-look-into-the-svg-customer-experience-with-heidi-harrisonThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

My interview today is with Bethany Archer, owner of Board and Batten Design Co. Bethany is an SVG designer who creates vintage-style artwork. Her story isn't the entrepreneurial journey we usually hear. Bethany rose above major challenges to replace her income and provide for her family. Now she works less than she ever has and lives a life of freedom on her remote homestead in Washington State. (All through six-figure passive income from SVG sales!) Tune in to hear how true grit can lead to big rewards.EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/how-true-grit-and-endurance-led-to-six-figures-in-svg-sales-as-a-single-parent-with-bethany-archerThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

My guest today is Tess MacKay. She recently swapped her 9 to 5 for a business she can do from home (on her terms). Tess only works when she wants to work. She shares her experience learning how to design SVG's in my Designer's Course to SVG Files. And you'll discover how she made 1000 sales on Etsy in FOUR  months with only 35 products. Listen in to hear all the juicy insider tips that led to her mind-blowing success story.EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/35-products-4-months-and-1000-sales-how-choosing-the-right-products-to-sell-leads-to-quick-growth-with-new-svg-student-tess-mackayThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

I love to geek out about SVG's. I'm sure you've picked up on that unless you're new here. In that case, welcome! Seriously, SVG's helped me build a wildly successful Etsy shop. The added benefit of SVG's for me is the design process. (It's so satisfying.) Designing is a great passive income source for crafters. Listen in to hear about the explosive growth in the cutting industry and what it means for designers. Plus, I share part of my journey to six-figure passive income success.EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/whats-the-deal-with-svgsThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

So many new designers ask me, “Kasey, what am I doing wrong? They're struggling to make enough sales in their SVG design business. And it seems like every other designer runs a thriving Etsy shop. If any of this sounds familiar to you, tune into this week's podcast episode.” I share five tips to help you go from beginner to SVG design superstar status. Plus, grab the free download . . .  “How to Transition Your Craft Business Into Automated Cha-Chings.”EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/5-changes-thatll-turn-you-into-an-svg-superstarThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

It's important to stay on top of the latest trends and styles in your niche, no matter the type of product you sell. This podcast episode has come to be a tradition here at the Naptime Hustle Podcast and one that my SVG design students look forward to. Get fully updated on what's happening, the changes we are seeing in the cutting industry, and the styles that you need to be aware of so that your SVG cut file business isn't left in the dust!EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/the-top-svg-design-trends-of-2021-and-my-industry-predictionsThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

It doesn't stop at Etsy—we're also exploring how to expand your brand's reach beyond the platform. I'll share my personal story of building a thriving email list of 4,000 SVG design enthusiasts, illustrating the immense potential of branding outside Etsy. You'll learn how to launch your shop with digital downloads to secure a steady, passive income stream. Plus, don't miss out on the exclusive opportunity to join our brand-new Etsy Digital Success Course, designed to revolutionize your online business strategy. Pop in those earbuds, and let's embark on a journey to elevate your Etsy shop into a compelling, influential brand!EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/etsy-branding-101-on-and-off-etsy-why-building-your-list-is-essentialThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

Nikita Grimes shares her inspiring journey from a medical bill reviewer to a successful SVG designer featured on Netflix. She discusses overcoming fears, the importance of finding your creative niche, and strategies for building a thriving online business around digital designs. • Transitioning from physical products to digital designs • Importance of finding a unique niche in the market • Overcoming self-doubt and embracing authenticity as a designer • Navigating customer service and building relationships • The flexibility and freedom that comes with running a digital business • Utilizing multiple platforms for sales and growth • Advice for aspiring designers overcoming fear of startingEPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/how-one-mom-replaced-not-only-her-income-but-her-husbands-too-with-nikita-grimesThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

Transform your handmade business into an income-generating machine without the stress of social media marketing. This episode explores the realities of e-commerce platforms versus social media and emphasizes creating products over chasing numbers. • Understanding the challenges of balancing business and family life • Importance of the upcoming masterclass for new SVG designers • Addressing shiny object syndrome and the distraction of social media • E-commerce platforms vs. social media for customer engagement • Focusing on product creation over follower counts • Encouragement to shift from numbers to quality in customer interaction • Insights into a supportive course for aspiring SVG designersEPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/its-not-about-the-numbers-what-you-may-not-know-about-social-mediaThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

Randy Hafen's transformation from a hassle-ridden handmade crochet business to a successful digital SVG designer illustrates the impact of creative passion and community support. This episode delves into her journey, overcoming self-doubt, navigating Etsy, and achieving 1,000 sales in just six months. EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/from-crocheter-to-svg-designer-1000-sales-in-the-first-6-months-with-randee-hafenThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

I've been in this SVG design area for quite some time now, my mind is trained to constantly be watching for these little helpful hints of what is it to come.Today we dive into the top SVG Design trends of 2020 so you can make a product creation plan that will KILL IT for your business in your new year! Downloadable guide included!EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/top-svg-design-trends-of-2020Thanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

Unleash your creativity and transform your design process with insights from my personal journey, where I transitioned from Photoshop to the vibrant world of SVG design with Adobe Illustrator. Discover how I moved from feeling overwhelmed by intricate designs to embracing the simplicity and endless possibilities of SVG clip art. I'll share my experiences with various graphic tablets, including the Wacom Intuos and the iPad's Sidecar feature, revealing how these tools have revolutionized my creative workflow. Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned designer, you'll gain practical tips and inspiration to elevate your design game.EPISODE NOTES: https://kaseyclin.com/blogs/podcast/invest-in-graphics-tabletThanks for listening! Click one of the links below to. Learn how to design for crafting machines such as Cricut, Silhouette, Glowforge, sublimation or embroidery. Check out my designs on Etsy

If you're in SF, join us tomorrow for a fun meetup at CodeGen Night!If you're in NYC, join us for AI Engineer Summit! The Agent Engineering track is now sold out, but 25 tickets remain for AI Leadership and 5 tickets for the workshops. You can see the full schedule of speakers and workshops at https://ai.engineer!It's exceedingly hard to introduce someone like Bret Taylor. We could recite his Wikipedia page, or his extensive work history through Silicon Valley's greatest companies, but everyone else already does that.As a podcast by AI engineers for AI engineers, we had the opportunity to do something a little different. We wanted to dig into what Bret sees from his vantage point at the top of our industry for the last 2 decades, and how that explains the rise of the AI Architect at Sierra, the leading conversational AI/CX platform.“Across our customer base, we are seeing a new role emerge - the role of the AI architect. These leaders are responsible for helping define, manage and evolve their company's AI agent over time. They come from a variety of both technical and business backgrounds, and we think that every company will have one or many AI architects managing their AI agent and related experience.”In our conversation, Bret Taylor confirms the Paul Buchheit legend that he rewrote Google Maps in a weekend, armed with only the help of a then-nascent Google Closure Compiler and no other modern tooling. But what we find remarkable is that he was the PM of Maps, not an engineer, though of course he still identifies as one. We find this theme recurring throughout Bret's career and worldview. We think it is plain as day that AI leadership will have to be hands-on and technical, especially when the ground is shifting as quickly as it is today:“There's a lot of power in combining product and engineering into as few people as possible… few great things have been created by committee.”“If engineering is an order taking organization for product you can sometimes make meaningful things, but rarely will you create extremely well crafted breakthrough products. Those tend to be small teams who deeply understand the customer need that they're solving, who have a maniacal focus on outcomes.”“And I think the reason why is if you look at like software as a service five years ago, maybe you can have a separation of product and engineering because most software as a service created five years ago. I wouldn't say there's like a lot of technological breakthroughs required for most business applications. And if you're making expense reporting software or whatever, it's useful… You kind of know how databases work, how to build auto scaling with your AWS cluster, whatever, you know, it's just, you're just applying best practices to yet another problem. "When you have areas like the early days of mobile development or the early days of interactive web applications, which I think Google Maps and Gmail represent, or now AI agents, you're in this constant conversation with what the requirements of your customers and stakeholders are and all the different people interacting with it and the capabilities of the technology. And it's almost impossible to specify the requirements of a product when you're not sure of the limitations of the technology itself.”This is the first time the difference between technical leadership for “normal” software and for “AI” software was articulated this clearly for us, and we'll be thinking a lot about this going forward. We left a lot of nuggets in the conversation, so we hope you'll just dive in with us (and thank Bret for joining the pod!)Timestamps* 00:00:02 Introductions and Bret Taylor's background* 00:01:23 Bret's experience at Stanford and the dot-com era* 00:04:04 The story of rewriting Google Maps backend* 00:11:06 Early days of interactive web applications at Google* 00:15:26 Discussion on product management and engineering roles* 00:21:00 AI and the future of software development* 00:26:42 Bret's approach to identifying customer needs and building AI companies* 00:32:09 The evolution of business models in the AI era* 00:41:00 The future of programming languages and software development* 00:49:38 Challenges in precisely communicating human intent to machines* 00:56:44 Discussion on Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) and its impact* 01:08:51 The future of agent-to-agent communication* 01:14:03 Bret's involvement in the OpenAI leadership crisis* 01:22:11 OpenAI's relationship with Microsoft* 01:23:23 OpenAI's mission and priorities* 01:27:40 Bret's guiding principles for career choices* 01:29:12 Brief discussion on pasta-making* 01:30:47 How Bret keeps up with AI developments* 01:32:15 Exciting research directions in AI* 01:35:19 Closing remarks and hiring at Sierra Transcript[00:02:05] Introduction and Guest Welcome[00:02:05] Alessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co host swyx, founder of smol.ai.[00:02:17] swyx: Hey, and today we're super excited to have Bret Taylor join us. Welcome. Thanks for having me. It's a little unreal to have you in the studio.[00:02:25] swyx: I've read about you so much over the years, like even before. Open AI effectively. I mean, I use Google Maps to get here. So like, thank you for everything that you've done. Like, like your story history, like, you know, I think people can find out what your greatest hits have been.[00:02:40] Bret Taylor's Early Career and Education[00:02:40] swyx: How do you usually like to introduce yourself when, you know, you talk about, you summarize your career, like, how do you look at yourself?[00:02:47] Bret: Yeah, it's a great question. You know, we, before we went on the mics here, we're talking about the audience for this podcast being more engineering. And I do think depending on the audience, I'll introduce myself differently because I've had a lot of [00:03:00] corporate and board roles. I probably self identify as an engineer more than anything else though.[00:03:04] Bret: So even when I was. Salesforce, I was coding on the weekends. So I think of myself as an engineer and then all the roles that I do in my career sort of start with that just because I do feel like engineering is sort of a mindset and how I approach most of my life. So I'm an engineer first and that's how I describe myself.[00:03:24] Bret: You majored in computer[00:03:25] swyx: science, like 1998. And, and I was high[00:03:28] Bret: school, actually my, my college degree was Oh, two undergrad. Oh, three masters. Right. That old.[00:03:33] swyx: Yeah. I mean, no, I was going, I was going like 1998 to 2003, but like engineering wasn't as, wasn't a thing back then. Like we didn't have the title of senior engineer, you know, kind of like, it was just.[00:03:44] swyx: You were a programmer, you were a developer, maybe. What was it like in Stanford? Like, what was that feeling like? You know, was it, were you feeling like on the cusp of a great computer revolution? Or was it just like a niche, you know, interest at the time?[00:03:57] Stanford and the Dot-Com Bubble[00:03:57] Bret: Well, I was at Stanford, as you said, from 1998 to [00:04:00] 2002.[00:04:02] Bret: 1998 was near the peak of the dot com bubble. So. This is back in the day where most people that they're coding in the computer lab, just because there was these sun microsystems, Unix boxes there that most of us had to do our assignments on. And every single day there was a. com like buying pizza for everybody.[00:04:20] Bret: I didn't have to like, I got. Free food, like my first two years of university and then the dot com bubble burst in the middle of my college career. And so by the end there was like tumbleweed going to the job fair, you know, it was like, cause it was hard to describe unless you were there at the time, the like level of hype and being a computer science major at Stanford was like, A thousand opportunities.[00:04:45] Bret: And then, and then when I left, it was like Microsoft, IBM.[00:04:49] Joining Google and Early Projects[00:04:49] Bret: And then the two startups that I applied to were VMware and Google. And I ended up going to Google in large part because a woman named Marissa Meyer, who had been a teaching [00:05:00] assistant when I was, what was called a section leader, which was like a junior teaching assistant kind of for one of the big interest.[00:05:05] Bret: Yes. Classes. She had gone there. And she was recruiting me and I knew her and it was sort of felt safe, you know, like, I don't know. I thought about it much, but it turned out to be a real blessing. I realized like, you know, you always want to think you'd pick Google if given the option, but no one knew at the time.[00:05:20] Bret: And I wonder if I'd graduated in like 1999 where I've been like, mom, I just got a job at pets. com. It's good. But you know, at the end I just didn't have any options. So I was like, do I want to go like make kernel software at VMware? Do I want to go build search at Google? And I chose Google. 50, 50 ball.[00:05:36] Bret: I'm not really a 50, 50 ball. So I feel very fortunate in retrospect that the economy collapsed because in some ways it forced me into like one of the greatest companies of all time, but I kind of lucked into it, I think.[00:05:47] The Google Maps Rewrite Story[00:05:47] Alessio: So the famous story about Google is that you rewrote the Google maps back in, in one week after the map quest quest maps acquisition, what was the story there?[00:05:57] Alessio: Is it. Actually true. Is it [00:06:00] being glorified? Like how, how did that come to be? And is there any detail that maybe Paul hasn't shared before?[00:06:06] Bret: It's largely true, but I'll give the color commentary. So it was actually the front end, not the back end, but it turns out for Google maps, the front end was sort of the hard part just because Google maps was.[00:06:17] Bret: Largely the first ish kind of really interactive web application, say first ish. I think Gmail certainly was though Gmail, probably a lot of people then who weren't engineers probably didn't appreciate its level of interactivity. It was just fast, but. Google maps, because you could drag the map and it was sort of graphical.[00:06:38] Bret: My, it really in the mainstream, I think, was it a map[00:06:41] swyx: quest back then that was, you had the arrows up and down, it[00:06:44] Bret: was up and down arrows. Each map was a single image and you just click left and then wait for a few seconds to the new map to let it was really small too, because generating a big image was kind of expensive on computers that day.[00:06:57] Bret: So Google maps was truly innovative in that [00:07:00] regard. The story on it. There was a small company called where two technologies started by two Danish brothers, Lars and Jens Rasmussen, who are two of my closest friends now. They had made a windows app called expedition, which had beautiful maps. Even in 2000.[00:07:18] Bret: For whenever we acquired or sort of acquired their company, Windows software was not particularly fashionable, but they were really passionate about mapping and we had made a local search product that was kind of middling in terms of popularity, sort of like a yellow page of search product. So we wanted to really go into mapping.[00:07:36] Bret: We'd started working on it. Their small team seemed passionate about it. So we're like, come join us. We can build this together.[00:07:42] Technical Challenges and Innovations[00:07:42] Bret: It turned out to be a great blessing that they had built a windows app because you're less technically constrained when you're doing native code than you are building a web browser, particularly back then when there weren't really interactive web apps and it ended up.[00:07:56] Bret: Changing the level of quality that we [00:08:00] wanted to hit with the app because we were shooting for something that felt like a native windows application. So it was a really good fortune that we sort of, you know, their unusual technical choices turned out to be the greatest blessing. So we spent a lot of time basically saying, how can you make a interactive draggable map in a web browser?[00:08:18] Bret: How do you progressively load, you know, new map tiles, you know, as you're dragging even things like down in the weeds of the browser at the time, most browsers like Internet Explorer, which was dominant at the time would only load two images at a time from the same domain. So we ended up making our map tile servers have like.[00:08:37] Bret: Forty different subdomains so we could load maps and parallels like lots of hacks. I'm happy to go into as much as like[00:08:44] swyx: HTTP connections and stuff.[00:08:46] Bret: They just like, there was just maximum parallelism of two. And so if you had a map, set of map tiles, like eight of them, so So we just, we were down in the weeds of the browser anyway.[00:08:56] Bret: So it was lots of plumbing. I can, I know a lot more about browsers than [00:09:00] most people, but then by the end of it, it was fairly, it was a lot of duct tape on that code. If you've ever done an engineering project where you're not really sure the path from point A to point B, it's almost like. Building a house by building one room at a time.[00:09:14] Bret: The, there's not a lot of architectural cohesion at the end. And then we acquired a company called Keyhole, which became Google earth, which was like that three, it was a native windows app as well, separate app, great app, but with that, we got licenses to all this satellite imagery. And so in August of 2005, we added.[00:09:33] Bret: Satellite imagery to Google Maps, which added even more complexity in the code base. And then we decided we wanted to support Safari. There was no mobile phones yet. So Safari was this like nascent browser on, on the Mac. And it turns out there's like a lot of decisions behind the scenes, sort of inspired by this windows app, like heavy use of XML and XSLT and all these like.[00:09:54] Bret: Technologies that were like briefly fashionable in the early two thousands and everyone hates now for good [00:10:00] reason. And it turns out that all of the XML functionality and Internet Explorer wasn't supporting Safari. So people are like re implementing like XML parsers. And it was just like this like pile of s**t.[00:10:11] Bret: And I had to say a s**t on your part. Yeah, of[00:10:12] Alessio: course.[00:10:13] Bret: So. It went from this like beautifully elegant application that everyone was proud of to something that probably had hundreds of K of JavaScript, which sounds like nothing. Now we're talking like people have modems, you know, not all modems, but it was a big deal.[00:10:29] Bret: So it was like slow. It took a while to load and just, it wasn't like a great code base. Like everything was fragile. So I just got. Super frustrated by it. And then one weekend I did rewrite all of it. And at the time the word JSON hadn't been coined yet too, just to give you a sense. So it's all XML.[00:10:47] swyx: Yeah.[00:10:47] Bret: So we used what is now you would call JSON, but I just said like, let's use eval so that we can parse the data fast. And, and again, that's, it would literally as JSON, but at the time there was no name for it. So we [00:11:00] just said, let's. Pass on JavaScript from the server and eval it. And then somebody just refactored the whole thing.[00:11:05] Bret: And, and it wasn't like I was some genius. It was just like, you know, if you knew everything you wished you had known at the beginning and I knew all the functionality, cause I was the primary, one of the primary authors of the JavaScript. And I just like, I just drank a lot of coffee and just stayed up all weekend.[00:11:22] Bret: And then I, I guess I developed a bit of reputation and no one knew about this for a long time. And then Paul who created Gmail and I ended up starting a company with him too, after all of this told this on a podcast and now it's large, but it's largely true. I did rewrite it and it, my proudest thing.[00:11:38] Bret: And I think JavaScript people appreciate this. Like the un G zipped bundle size for all of Google maps. When I rewrote, it was 20 K G zipped. It was like much smaller for the entire application. It went down by like 10 X. So. What happened on Google? Google is a pretty mainstream company. And so like our usage is shot up because it turns out like it's faster.[00:11:57] Bret: Just being faster is worth a lot of [00:12:00] percentage points of growth at a scale of Google. So how[00:12:03] swyx: much modern tooling did you have? Like test suites no compilers.[00:12:07] Bret: Actually, that's not true. We did it one thing. So I actually think Google, I, you can. Download it. There's a, Google has a closure compiler, a closure compiler.[00:12:15] Bret: I don't know if anyone still uses it. It's gone. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of gone out of favor. Yeah. Well, even until recently it was better than most JavaScript minifiers because it was more like it did a lot more renaming of variables and things. Most people use ES build now just cause it's fast and closure compilers built on Java and super slow and stuff like that.[00:12:37] Bret: But, so we did have that, that was it. Okay.[00:12:39] The Evolution of Web Applications[00:12:39] Bret: So and that was treated internally, you know, it was a really interesting time at Google at the time because there's a lot of teams working on fairly advanced JavaScript when no one was. So Google suggest, which Kevin Gibbs was the tech lead for, was the first kind of type ahead, autocomplete, I believe in a web browser, and now it's just pervasive in search boxes that you sort of [00:13:00] see a type ahead there.[00:13:01] Bret: I mean, chat, dbt[00:13:01] swyx: just added it. It's kind of like a round trip.[00:13:03] Bret: Totally. No, it's now pervasive as a UI affordance, but that was like Kevin's 20 percent project. And then Gmail, Paul you know, he tells the story better than anyone, but he's like, you know, basically was scratching his own itch, but what was really neat about it is email, because it's such a productivity tool, just needed to be faster.[00:13:21] Bret: So, you know, he was scratching his own itch of just making more stuff work on the client side. And then we, because of Lars and Yen sort of like setting the bar of this windows app or like we need our maps to be draggable. So we ended up. Not only innovate in terms of having a big sync, what would be called a single page application today, but also all the graphical stuff you know, we were crashing Firefox, like it was going out of style because, you know, when you make a document object model with the idea that it's a document and then you layer on some JavaScript and then we're essentially abusing all of this, it just was running into code paths that were not.[00:13:56] Bret: Well, it's rotten, you know, at this time. And so it was [00:14:00] super fun. And, and, you know, in the building you had, so you had compilers, people helping minify JavaScript just practically, but there is a great engineering team. So they were like, that's why Closure Compiler is so good. It was like a. Person who actually knew about programming languages doing it, not just, you know, writing regular expressions.[00:14:17] Bret: And then the team that is now the Chrome team believe, and I, I don't know this for a fact, but I'm pretty sure Google is the main contributor to Firefox for a long time in terms of code. And a lot of browser people were there. So every time we would crash Firefox, we'd like walk up two floors and say like, what the hell is going on here?[00:14:35] Bret: And they would load their browser, like in a debugger. And we could like figure out exactly what was breaking. And you can't change the code, right? Cause it's the browser. It's like slow, right? I mean, slow to update. So, but we could figure out exactly where the bug was and then work around it in our JavaScript.[00:14:52] Bret: So it was just like new territory. Like so super, super fun time, just like a lot of, a lot of great engineers figuring out [00:15:00] new things. And And now, you know, the word, this term is no longer in fashion, but the word Ajax, which was asynchronous JavaScript and XML cause I'm telling you XML, but see the word XML there, to be fair, the way you made HTTP requests from a client to server was this.[00:15:18] Bret: Object called XML HTTP request because Microsoft and making Outlook web access back in the day made this and it turns out to have nothing to do with XML. It's just a way of making HTTP requests because XML was like the fashionable thing. It was like that was the way you, you know, you did it. But the JSON came out of that, you know, and then a lot of the best practices around building JavaScript applications is pre React.[00:15:44] Bret: I think React was probably the big conceptual step forward that we needed. Even my first social network after Google, we used a lot of like HTML injection and. Making real time updates was still very hand coded and it's really neat when you [00:16:00] see conceptual breakthroughs like react because it's, I just love those things where it's like obvious once you see it, but it's so not obvious until you do.[00:16:07] Bret: And actually, well, I'm sure we'll get into AI, but I, I sort of feel like we'll go through that evolution with AI agents as well that I feel like we're missing a lot of the core abstractions that I think in 10 years we'll be like, gosh, how'd you make agents? Before that, you know, but it was kind of that early days of web applications.[00:16:22] swyx: There's a lot of contenders for the reactive jobs of of AI, but no clear winner yet. I would say one thing I was there for, I mean, there's so much we can go into there. You just covered so much.[00:16:32] Product Management and Engineering Synergy[00:16:32] swyx: One thing I just, I just observe is that I think the early Google days had this interesting mix of PM and engineer, which I think you are, you didn't, you didn't wait for PM to tell you these are my, this is my PRD.[00:16:42] swyx: This is my requirements.[00:16:44] mix: Oh,[00:16:44] Bret: okay.[00:16:45] swyx: I wasn't technically a software engineer. I mean,[00:16:48] Bret: by title, obviously. Right, right, right.[00:16:51] swyx: It's like a blend. And I feel like these days, product is its own discipline and its own lore and own industry and engineering is its own thing. And there's this process [00:17:00] that happens and they're kind of separated, but you don't produce as good of a product as if they were the same person.[00:17:06] swyx: And I'm curious, you know, if, if that, if that sort of resonates in, in, in terms of like comparing early Google versus modern startups that you see out there,[00:17:16] Bret: I certainly like wear a lot of hats. So, you know, sort of biased in this, but I really agree that there's a lot of power and combining product design engineering into as few people as possible because, you know few great things have been created by committee, you know, and so.[00:17:33] Bret: If engineering is an order taking organization for product you can sometimes make meaningful things, but rarely will you create extremely well crafted breakthrough products. Those tend to be small teams who deeply understand the customer need that they're solving, who have a. Maniacal focus on outcomes.[00:17:53] Bret: And I think the reason why it's, I think for some areas, if you look at like software as a service five years ago, maybe you can have a [00:18:00] separation of product and engineering because most software as a service created five years ago. I wouldn't say there's like a lot of like. Technological breakthroughs required for most, you know, business applications.[00:18:11] Bret: And if you're making expense reporting software or whatever, it's useful. I don't mean to be dismissive of expense reporting software, but you probably just want to understand like, what are the requirements of the finance department? What are the requirements of an individual file expense report? Okay.[00:18:25] Bret: Go implement that. And you kind of know how web applications are implemented. You kind of know how to. How databases work, how to build auto scaling with your AWS cluster, whatever, you know, it's just, you're just applying best practices to yet another problem when you have areas like the early days of mobile development or the early days of interactive web applications, which I think Google Maps and Gmail represent, or now AI agents, you're in this constant conversation with what the requirements of your customers and stakeholders are and all the different people interacting with it.[00:18:58] Bret: And the capabilities of the [00:19:00] technology. And it's almost impossible to specify the requirements of a product when you're not sure of the limitations of the technology itself. And that's why I use the word conversation. It's not literal. That's sort of funny to use that word in the age of conversational AI.[00:19:15] Bret: You're constantly sort of saying, like, ideally, you could sprinkle some magic AI pixie dust and solve all the world's problems, but it's not the way it works. And it turns out that actually, I'll just give an interesting example.[00:19:26] AI Agents and Modern Tooling[00:19:26] Bret: I think most people listening probably use co pilots to code like Cursor or Devon or Microsoft Copilot or whatever.[00:19:34] Bret: Most of those tools are, they're remarkable. I'm, I couldn't, you know, imagine development without them now, but they're not autonomous yet. Like I wouldn't let it just write most code without my interactively inspecting it. We just are somewhere between it's an amazing co pilot and it's an autonomous software engineer.[00:19:53] Bret: As a product manager, like your aspirations for what the product is are like kind of meaningful. But [00:20:00] if you're a product person, yeah, of course you'd say it should be autonomous. You should click a button and program should come out the other side. The requirements meaningless. Like what matters is like, what is based on the like very nuanced limitations of the technology.[00:20:14] Bret: What is it capable of? And then how do you maximize the leverage? It gives a software engineering team, given those very nuanced trade offs. Coupled with the fact that those nuanced trade offs are changing more rapidly than any technology in my memory, meaning every few months you'll have new models with new capabilities.[00:20:34] Bret: So how do you construct a product that can absorb those new capabilities as rapidly as possible as well? That requires such a combination of technical depth and understanding the customer that you really need more integration. Of product design and engineering. And so I think it's why with these big technology waves, I think startups have a bit of a leg up relative to incumbents because they [00:21:00] tend to be sort of more self actualized in terms of just like bringing those disciplines closer together.[00:21:06] Bret: And in particular, I think entrepreneurs, the proverbial full stack engineers, you know, have a leg up as well because. I think most breakthroughs happen when you have someone who can understand those extremely nuanced technical trade offs, have a vision for a product. And then in the process of building it, have that, as I said, like metaphorical conversation with the technology, right?[00:21:30] Bret: Gosh, I ran into a technical limit that I didn't expect. It's not just like changing that feature. You might need to refactor the whole product based on that. And I think that's, that it's particularly important right now. So I don't, you know, if you, if you're building a big ERP system, probably there's a great reason to have product and engineering.[00:21:51] Bret: I think in general, the disciplines are there for a reason. I think when you're dealing with something as nuanced as the like technologies, like large language models today, there's a ton of [00:22:00] advantage of having. Individuals or organizations that integrate the disciplines more formally.[00:22:05] Alessio: That makes a lot of sense.[00:22:06] Alessio: I've run a lot of engineering teams in the past, and I think the product versus engineering tension has always been more about effort than like whether or not the feature is buildable. But I think, yeah, today you see a lot more of like. Models actually cannot do that. And I think the most interesting thing is on the startup side, people don't yet know where a lot of the AI value is going to accrue.[00:22:26] Alessio: So you have this rush of people building frameworks, building infrastructure, layered things, but we don't really know the shape of the compute. I'm curious that Sierra, like how you thought about building an house, a lot of the tooling for evals or like just, you know, building the agents and all of that.[00:22:41] Alessio: Versus how you see some of the startup opportunities that is maybe still out there.[00:22:46] Bret: We build most of our tooling in house at Sierra, not all. It's, we don't, it's not like not invented here syndrome necessarily, though, maybe slightly guilty of that in some ways, but because we're trying to build a platform [00:23:00] that's in Dorian, you know, we really want to have control over our own destiny.[00:23:03] Bret: And you had made a comment earlier that like. We're still trying to figure out who like the reactive agents are and the jury is still out. I would argue it hasn't been created yet. I don't think the jury is still out to go use that metaphor. We're sort of in the jQuery era of agents, not the react era.[00:23:19] Bret: And, and that's like a throwback for people listening,[00:23:22] swyx: we shouldn't rush it. You know?[00:23:23] Bret: No, yeah, that's my point is. And so. Because we're trying to create an enduring company at Sierra that outlives us, you know, I'm not sure we want to like attach our cart to some like to a horse where it's not clear that like we've figured out and I actually want as a company, we're trying to enable just at a high level and I'll, I'll quickly go back to tech at Sierra, we help consumer brands build customer facing AI agents.[00:23:48] Bret: So. Everyone from Sonos to ADT home security to Sirius XM, you know, if you call them on the phone and AI will pick up with you, you know, chat with them on the Sirius XM homepage. It's an AI agent called Harmony [00:24:00] that they've built on our platform. We're what are the contours of what it means for someone to build an end to end complete customer experience with AI with conversational AI.[00:24:09] Bret: You know, we really want to dive into the deep end of, of all the trade offs to do it. You know, where do you use fine tuning? Where do you string models together? You know, where do you use reasoning? Where do you use generation? How do you use reasoning? How do you express the guardrails of an agentic process?[00:24:25] Bret: How do you impose determinism on a fundamentally non deterministic technology? There's just a lot of really like as an important design space. And I could sit here and tell you, we have the best approach. Every entrepreneur will, you know. But I hope that in two years, we look back at our platform and laugh at how naive we were, because that's the pace of change broadly.[00:24:45] Bret: If you talk about like the startup opportunities, I'm not wholly skeptical of tools companies, but I'm fairly skeptical. There's always an exception for every role, but I believe that certainly there's a big market for [00:25:00] frontier models, but largely for companies with huge CapEx budgets. So. Open AI and Microsoft's Anthropic and Amazon Web Services, Google Cloud XAI, which is very well capitalized now, but I think the, the idea that a company can make money sort of pre training a foundation model is probably not true.[00:25:20] Bret: It's hard to, you're competing with just, you know, unreasonably large CapEx budgets. And I just like the cloud infrastructure market, I think will be largely there. I also really believe in the applications of AI. And I define that not as like building agents or things like that. I define it much more as like, you're actually solving a problem for a business.[00:25:40] Bret: So it's what Harvey is doing in legal profession or what cursor is doing for software engineering or what we're doing for customer experience and customer service. The reason I believe in that is I do think that in the age of AI, what's really interesting about software is it can actually complete a task.[00:25:56] Bret: It can actually do a job, which is very different than the value proposition of [00:26:00] software was to ancient history two years ago. And as a consequence, I think the way you build a solution and For a domain is very different than you would have before, which means that it's not obvious, like the incumbent incumbents have like a leg up, you know, necessarily, they certainly have some advantages, but there's just such a different form factor, you know, for providing a solution and it's just really valuable.[00:26:23] Bret: You know, it's. Like just think of how much money cursor is saving software engineering teams or the alternative, how much revenue it can produce tool making is really challenging. If you look at the cloud market, just as a analog, there are a lot of like interesting tools, companies, you know, Confluent, Monetized Kafka, Snowflake, Hortonworks, you know, there's a, there's a bunch of them.[00:26:48] Bret: A lot of them, you know, have that mix of sort of like like confluence or have the open source or open core or whatever you call it. I, I, I'm not an expert in this area. You know, I do think [00:27:00] that developers are fickle. I think that in the tool space, I probably like. Default towards open source being like the area that will win.[00:27:09] Bret: It's hard to build a company around this and then you end up with companies sort of built around open source to that can work. Don't get me wrong, but I just think that it's nowadays the tools are changing so rapidly that I'm like, not totally skeptical of tool makers, but I just think that open source will broadly win, but I think that the CapEx required for building frontier models is such that it will go to a handful of big companies.[00:27:33] Bret: And then I really believe in agents for specific domains which I think will, it's sort of the analog to software as a service in this new era. You know, it's like, if you just think of the cloud. You can lease a server. It's just a low level primitive, or you can buy an app like you know, Shopify or whatever.[00:27:51] Bret: And most people building a storefront would prefer Shopify over hand rolling their e commerce storefront. I think the same thing will be true of AI. So [00:28:00] I've. I tend to like, if I have a, like an entrepreneur asked me for advice, I'm like, you know, move up the stack as far as you can towards a customer need.[00:28:09] Bret: Broadly, but I, but it doesn't reduce my excitement about what is the reactive building agents kind of thing, just because it is, it is the right question to ask, but I think we'll probably play out probably an open source space more than anything else.[00:28:21] swyx: Yeah, and it's not a priority for you. There's a lot in there.[00:28:24] swyx: I'm kind of curious about your idea maze towards, there are many customer needs. You happen to identify customer experience as yours, but it could equally have been coding assistance or whatever. I think for some, I'm just kind of curious at the top down, how do you look at the world in terms of the potential problem space?[00:28:44] swyx: Because there are many people out there who are very smart and pick the wrong problem.[00:28:47] Bret: Yeah, that's a great question.[00:28:48] Future of Software Development[00:28:48] Bret: By the way, I would love to talk about the future of software, too, because despite the fact it didn't pick coding, I have a lot of that, but I can talk to I can answer your question, though, you know I think when a technology is as [00:29:00] cool as large language models.[00:29:02] Bret: You just see a lot of people starting from the technology and searching for a problem to solve. And I think it's why you see a lot of tools companies, because as a software engineer, you start building an app or a demo and you, you encounter some pain points. You're like,[00:29:17] swyx: a lot of[00:29:17] Bret: people are experiencing the same pain point.[00:29:19] Bret: What if I make it? That it's just very incremental. And you know, I always like to use the metaphor, like you can sell coffee beans, roasted coffee beans. You can add some value. You took coffee beans and you roasted them and roasted coffee beans largely, you know, are priced relative to the cost of the beans.[00:29:39] Bret: Or you can sell a latte and a latte. Is rarely priced directly like as a percentage of coffee bean prices. In fact, if you buy a latte at the airport, it's a captive audience. So it's a really expensive latte. And there's just a lot that goes into like. How much does a latte cost? And I bring it up because there's a supply chain from growing [00:30:00] coffee beans to roasting coffee beans to like, you know, you could make one at home or you could be in the airport and buy one and the margins of the company selling lattes in the airport is a lot higher than the, you know, people roasting the coffee beans and it's because you've actually solved a much more acute human problem in the airport.[00:30:19] Bret: And, and it's just worth a lot more to that person in that moment. It's kind of the way I think about technology too. It sounds funny to liken it to coffee beans, but you're selling tools on top of a large language model yet in some ways your market is big, but you're probably going to like be price compressed just because you're sort of a piece of infrastructure and then you have open source and all these other things competing with you naturally.[00:30:43] Bret: If you go and solve a really big business problem for somebody, that's actually like a meaningful business problem that AI facilitates, they will value it according to the value of that business problem. And so I actually feel like people should just stop. You're like, no, that's, that's [00:31:00] unfair. If you're searching for an idea of people, I, I love people trying things, even if, I mean, most of the, a lot of the greatest ideas have been things no one believed in.[00:31:07] Bret: So I like, if you're passionate about something, go do it. Like who am I to say, yeah, a hundred percent. Or Gmail, like Paul as far, I mean I, some of it's Laura at this point, but like Gmail is Paul's own email for a long time. , and then I amusingly and Paul can't correct me, I'm pretty sure he sent her in a link and like the first comment was like, this is really neat.[00:31:26] Bret: It would be great. It was not your email, but my own . I don't know if it's a true story. I'm pretty sure it's, yeah, I've read that before. So scratch your own niche. Fine. Like it depends on what your goal is. If you wanna do like a venture backed company, if its a. Passion project, f*****g passion, do it like don't listen to anybody.[00:31:41] Bret: In fact, but if you're trying to start, you know an enduring company, solve an important business problem. And I, and I do think that in the world of agents, the software industries has shifted where you're not just helping people more. People be more productive, but you're actually accomplishing tasks autonomously.[00:31:58] Bret: And as a consequence, I think the [00:32:00] addressable market has just greatly expanded just because software can actually do things now and actually accomplish tasks and how much is coding autocomplete worth. A fair amount. How much is the eventual, I'm certain we'll have it, the software agent that actually writes the code and delivers it to you, that's worth a lot.[00:32:20] Bret: And so, you know, I would just maybe look up from the large language models and start thinking about the economy and, you know, think from first principles. I don't wanna get too far afield, but just think about which parts of the economy. We'll benefit most from this intelligence and which parts can absorb it most easily.[00:32:38] Bret: And what would an agent in this space look like? Who's the customer of it is the technology feasible. And I would just start with these business problems more. And I think, you know, the best companies tend to have great engineers who happen to have great insight into a market. And it's that last part that I think some people.[00:32:56] Bret: Whether or not they have, it's like people start so much in the technology, they [00:33:00] lose the forest for the trees a little bit.[00:33:02] Alessio: How do you think about the model of still selling some sort of software versus selling more package labor? I feel like when people are selling the package labor, it's almost more stateless, you know, like it's easier to swap out if you're just putting an input and getting an output.[00:33:16] Alessio: If you think about coding, if there's no ID, you're just putting a prompt and getting back an app. It doesn't really matter. Who generates the app, you know, you have less of a buy in versus the platform you're building, I'm sure on the backend customers have to like put on their documentation and they have, you know, different workflows that they can tie in what's kind of like the line to draw there versus like going full where you're managed customer support team as a service outsource versus.[00:33:40] Alessio: This is the Sierra platform that you can build on. What was that decision? I'll sort of[00:33:44] Bret: like decouple the question in some ways, which is when you have something that's an agent, who is the person using it and what do they want to do with it? So let's just take your coding agent for a second. I will talk about Sierra as well.[00:33:59] Bret: Who's the [00:34:00] customer of a, an agent that actually produces software? Is it a software engineering manager? Is it a software engineer? And it's there, you know, intern so to speak. I don't know. I mean, we'll figure this out over the next few years. Like what is that? And is it generating code that you then review?[00:34:16] Bret: Is it generating code with a set of unit tests that pass, what is the actual. For lack of a better word contract, like, how do you know that it did what you wanted it to do? And then I would say like the product and the pricing, the packaging model sort of emerged from that. And I don't think the world's figured out.[00:34:33] Bret: I think it'll be different for every agent. You know, in our customer base, we do what's called outcome based pricing. So essentially every time the AI agent. Solves the problem or saves a customer or whatever it might be. There's a pre negotiated rate for that. We do that. Cause it's, we think that that's sort of the correct way agents, you know, should be packaged.[00:34:53] Bret: I look back at the history of like cloud software and notably the introduction of the browser, which led to [00:35:00] software being delivered in a browser, like Salesforce to. Famously invented sort of software as a service, which is both a technical delivery model through the browser, but also a business model, which is you subscribe to it rather than pay for a perpetual license.[00:35:13] Bret: Those two things are somewhat orthogonal, but not really. If you think about the idea of software running in a browser, that's hosted. Data center that you don't own, you sort of needed to change the business model because you don't, you can't really buy a perpetual license or something otherwise like, how do you afford making changes to it?[00:35:31] Bret: So it only worked when you were buying like a new version every year or whatever. So to some degree, but then the business model shift actually changed business as we know it, because now like. Things like Adobe Photoshop. Now you subscribe to rather than purchase. So it ended up where you had a technical shift and a business model shift that were very logically intertwined that actually the business model shift was turned out to be as significant as the technical as the shift.[00:35:59] Bret: And I think with [00:36:00] agents, because they actually accomplish a job, I do think that it doesn't make sense to me that you'd pay for the privilege of like. Using the software like that coding agent, like if it writes really bad code, like fire it, you know, I don't know what the right metaphor is like you should pay for a job.[00:36:17] Bret: Well done in my opinion. I mean, that's how you pay your software engineers, right? And[00:36:20] swyx: and well, not really. We paid to put them on salary and give them options and they vest over time. That's fair.[00:36:26] Bret: But my point is that you don't pay them for how many characters they write, which is sort of the token based, you know, whatever, like, There's a, that famous Apple story where we're like asking for a report of how many lines of code you wrote.[00:36:40] Bret: And one of the engineers showed up with like a negative number cause he had just like done a big refactoring. There was like a big F you to management who didn't understand how software is written. You know, my sense is like the traditional usage based or seat based thing. It's just going to look really antiquated.[00:36:55] Bret: Cause it's like asking your software engineer, how many lines of code did you write today? Like who cares? Like, cause [00:37:00] absolutely no correlation. So my old view is I don't think it's be different in every category, but I do think that that is the, if an agent is doing a job, you should, I think it properly incentivizes the maker of that agent and the customer of, of your pain for the job well done.[00:37:16] Bret: It's not always perfect to measure. It's hard to measure engineering productivity, but you can, you should do something other than how many keys you typed, you know Talk about perverse incentives for AI, right? Like I can write really long functions to do the same thing, right? So broadly speaking, you know, I do think that we're going to see a change in business models of software towards outcomes.[00:37:36] Bret: And I think you'll see a change in delivery models too. And, and, you know, in our customer base you know, we empower our customers to really have their hands on the steering wheel of what the agent does they, they want and need that. But the role is different. You know, at a lot of our customers, the customer experience operations folks have renamed themselves the AI architects, which I think is really cool.[00:37:55] Bret: And, you know, it's like in the early days of the Internet, there's the role of the webmaster. [00:38:00] And I don't know whether your webmaster is not a fashionable, you know, Term, nor is it a job anymore? I just, I don't know. Will they, our tech stand the test of time? Maybe, maybe not. But I do think that again, I like, you know, because everyone listening right now is a software engineer.[00:38:14] Bret: Like what is the form factor of a coding agent? And actually I'll, I'll take a breath. Cause actually I have a bunch of pins on them. Like I wrote a blog post right before Christmas, just on the future of software development. And one of the things that's interesting is like, if you look at the way I use cursor today, as an example, it's inside of.[00:38:31] Bret: A repackaged visual studio code environment. I sometimes use the sort of agentic parts of it, but it's largely, you know, I've sort of gotten a good routine of making it auto complete code in the way I want through tuning it properly when it actually can write. I do wonder what like the future of development environments will look like.[00:38:55] Bret: And to your point on what is a software product, I think it's going to change a lot in [00:39:00] ways that will surprise us. But I always use, I use the metaphor in my blog post of, have you all driven around in a way, Mo around here? Yeah, everyone has. And there are these Jaguars, the really nice cars, but it's funny because it still has a steering wheel, even though there's no one sitting there and the steering wheels like turning and stuff clearly in the future.[00:39:16] Bret: If once we get to that, be more ubiquitous, like why have the steering wheel and also why have all the seats facing forward? Maybe just for car sickness. I don't know, but you could totally rearrange the car. I mean, so much of the car is oriented around the driver, so. It stands to reason to me that like, well, autonomous agents for software engineering run through visual studio code.[00:39:37] Bret: That seems a little bit silly because having a single source code file open one at a time is kind of a goofy form factor for when like the code isn't being written primarily by you, but it begs the question of what's your relationship with that agent. And I think the same is true in our industry of customer experience, which is like.[00:39:55] Bret: Who are the people managing this agent? What are the tools do they need? And they definitely need [00:40:00] tools, but it's probably pretty different than the tools we had before. It's certainly different than training a contact center team. And as software engineers, I think that I would like to see particularly like on the passion project side or research side.[00:40:14] Bret: More innovation in programming languages. I think that we're bringing the cost of writing code down to zero. So the fact that we're still writing Python with AI cracks me up just cause it's like literally was designed to be ergonomic to write, not safe to run or fast to run. I would love to see more innovation and how we verify program correctness.[00:40:37] Bret: I studied for formal verification in college a little bit and. It's not very fashionable because it's really like tedious and slow and doesn't work very well. If a lot of code is being written by a machine, you know, one of the primary values we can provide is verifying that it actually does what we intend that it does.[00:40:56] Bret: I think there should be lots of interesting things in the software development life cycle, like how [00:41:00] we think of testing and everything else, because. If you think about if we have to manually read every line of code that's coming out as machines, it will just rate limit how much the machines can do. The alternative is totally unsafe.[00:41:13] Bret: So I wouldn't want to put code in production that didn't go through proper code review and inspection. So my whole view is like, I actually think there's like an AI native I don't think the coding agents don't work well enough to do this yet, but once they do, what is sort of an AI native software development life cycle and how do you actually.[00:41:31] Bret: Enable the creators of software to produce the highest quality, most robust, fastest software and know that it's correct. And I think that's an incredible opportunity. I mean, how much C code can we rewrite and rust and make it safe so that there's fewer security vulnerabilities. Can we like have more efficient, safer code than ever before?[00:41:53] Bret: And can you have someone who's like that guy in the matrix, you know, like staring at the little green things, like where could you have an operator [00:42:00] of a code generating machine be like superhuman? I think that's a cool vision. And I think too many people are focused on like. Autocomplete, you know, right now, I'm not, I'm not even, I'm guilty as charged.[00:42:10] Bret: I guess in some ways, but I just like, I'd like to see some bolder ideas. And that's why when you were joking, you know, talking about what's the react of whatever, I think we're clearly in a local maximum, you know, metaphor, like sort of conceptual local maximum, obviously it's moving really fast. I think we're moving out of it.[00:42:26] Alessio: Yeah. At the end of 23, I've read this blog post from syntax to semantics. Like if you think about Python. It's taking C and making it more semantic and LLMs are like the ultimate semantic program, right? You can just talk to them and they can generate any type of syntax from your language. But again, the languages that they have to use were made for us, not for them.[00:42:46] Alessio: But the problem is like, as long as you will ever need a human to intervene, you cannot change the language under it. You know what I mean? So I'm curious at what point of automation we'll need to get, we're going to be okay making changes. To the underlying languages, [00:43:00] like the programming languages versus just saying, Hey, you just got to write Python because I understand Python and I'm more important at the end of the day than the model.[00:43:08] Alessio: But I think that will change, but I don't know if it's like two years or five years. I think it's more nuanced actually.[00:43:13] Bret: So I think there's a, some of the more interesting programming languages bring semantics into syntax. So let me, that's a little reductive, but like Rust as an example, Rust is memory safe.[00:43:25] Bret: Statically, and that was a really interesting conceptual, but it's why it's hard to write rust. It's why most people write python instead of rust. I think rust programs are safer and faster than python, probably slower to compile. But like broadly speaking, like given the option, if you didn't have to care about the labor that went into it.[00:43:45] Bret: You should prefer a program written in Rust over a program written in Python, just because it will run more efficiently. It's almost certainly safer, et cetera, et cetera, depending on how you define safe, but most people don't write Rust because it's kind of a pain in the ass. And [00:44:00] the audience of people who can is smaller, but it's sort of better in most, most ways.[00:44:05] Bret: And again, let's say you're making a web service and you didn't have to care about how hard it was to write. If you just got the output of the web service, the rest one would be cheaper to operate. It's certainly cheaper and probably more correct just because there's so much in the static analysis implied by the rest programming language that it probably will have fewer runtime errors and things like that as well.[00:44:25] Bret: So I just give that as an example, because so rust, at least my understanding that came out of the Mozilla team, because. There's lots of security vulnerabilities in the browser and it needs to be really fast. They said, okay, we want to put more of a burden at the authorship time to have fewer issues at runtime.[00:44:43] Bret: And we need the constraint that it has to be done statically because browsers need to be really fast. My sense is if you just think about like the, the needs of a programming language today, where the role of a software engineer is [00:45:00] to use an AI to generate functionality and audit that it does in fact work as intended, maybe functionally, maybe from like a correctness standpoint, some combination thereof, how would you create a programming system that facilitated that?[00:45:15] Bret: And, you know, I bring up Rust is because I think it's a good example of like, I think given a choice of writing in C or Rust, you should choose Rust today. I think most people would say that, even C aficionados, just because. C is largely less safe for very similar, you know, trade offs, you know, for the, the system and now with AI, it's like, okay, well, that just changes the game on writing these things.[00:45:36] Bret: And so like, I just wonder if a combination of programming languages that are more structurally oriented towards the values that we need from an AI generated program, verifiable correctness and all of that. If it's tedious to produce for a person, that maybe doesn't matter. But one thing, like if I asked you, is this rest program memory safe?[00:45:58] Bret: You wouldn't have to read it, you just have [00:46:00] to compile it. So that's interesting. I mean, that's like an, that's one example of a very modest form of formal verification. So I bring that up because I do think you have AI inspect AI, you can have AI reviewed. Do AI code reviews. It would disappoint me if the best we could get was AI reviewing Python and having scaled a few very large.[00:46:21] Bret: Websites that were written on Python. It's just like, you know, expensive and it's like every, trust me, every team who's written a big web service in Python has experimented with like Pi Pi and all these things just to make it slightly more efficient than it naturally is. You don't really have true multi threading anyway.[00:46:36] Bret: It's just like clearly that you do it just because it's convenient to write. And I just feel like we're, I don't want to say it's insane. I just mean. I do think we're at a local maximum. And I would hope that we create a programming system, a combination of programming languages, formal verification, testing, automated code reviews, where you can use AI to generate software in a high scale way and trust it.[00:46:59] Bret: And you're [00:47:00] not limited by your ability to read it necessarily. I don't know exactly what form that would take, but I feel like that would be a pretty cool world to live in.[00:47:08] Alessio: Yeah. We had Chris Lanner on the podcast. He's doing great work with modular. I mean, I love. LVM. Yeah. Basically merging rust in and Python.[00:47:15] Alessio: That's kind of the idea. Should be, but I'm curious is like, for them a big use case was like making it compatible with Python, same APIs so that Python developers could use it. Yeah. And so I, I wonder at what point, well, yeah.[00:47:26] Bret: At least my understanding is they're targeting the data science Yeah. Machine learning crowd, which is all written in Python, so still feels like a local maximum.[00:47:34] Bret: Yeah.[00:47:34] swyx: Yeah, exactly. I'll force you to make a prediction. You know, Python's roughly 30 years old. In 30 years from now, is Rust going to be bigger than Python?[00:47:42] Bret: I don't know this, but just, I don't even know this is a prediction. I just am sort of like saying stuff I hope is true. I would like to see an AI native programming language and programming system, and I use language because I'm not sure language is even the right thing, but I hope in 30 years, there's an AI native way we make [00:48:00] software that is wholly uncorrelated with the current set of programming languages.[00:48:04] Bret: or not uncorrelated, but I think most programming languages today were designed to be efficiently authored by people and some have different trade offs.[00:48:15] Evolution of Programming Languages[00:48:15] Bret: You know, you have Haskell and others that were designed for abstractions for parallelism and things like that. You have programming languages like Python, which are designed to be very easily written, sort of like Perl and Python lineage, which is why data scientists use it.[00:48:31] Bret: It's it can, it has a. Interactive mode, things like that. And I love, I'm a huge Python fan. So despite all my Python trash talk, a huge Python fan wrote at least two of my three companies were exclusively written in Python and then C came out of the birth of Unix and it wasn't the first, but certainly the most prominent first step after assembly language, right?[00:48:54] Bret: Where you had higher level abstractions rather than and going beyond go to, to like abstractions, [00:49:00] like the for loop and the while loop.[00:49:01] The Future of Software Engineering[00:49:01] Bret: So I just think that if the act of writing code is no longer a meaningful human exercise, maybe it will be, I don't know. I'm just saying it sort of feels like maybe it's one of those parts of history that just will sort of like go away, but there's still the role of this offer engineer, like the person actually building the system.[00:49:20] Bret: Right. And. What does a programming system for that form factor look like?[00:49:25] React and Front-End Development[00:49:25] Bret: And I, I just have a, I hope to be just like I mentioned, I remember I was at Facebook in the very early days when, when, what is now react was being created. And I remember when the, it was like released open source I had left by that time and I was just like, this is so f*****g cool.[00:49:42] Bret: Like, you know, to basically model your app independent of the data flowing through it, just made everything easier. And then now. You know, I can create, like there's a lot of the front end software gym play is like a little chaotic for me, to be honest with you. It is like, it's sort of like [00:50:00] abstraction soup right now for me, but like some of those core ideas felt really ergonomic.[00:50:04] Bret: I just wanna, I'm just looking forward to the day when someone comes up with a programming system that feels both really like an aha moment, but completely foreign to me at the same time. Because they created it with sort of like from first principles recognizing that like. Authoring code in an editor is maybe not like the primary like reason why a programming system exists anymore.[00:50:26] Bret: And I think that's like, that would be a very exciting day for me.[00:50:28] The Role of AI in Programming[00:50:28] swyx: Yeah, I would say like the various versions of this discussion have happened at the end of the day, you still need to precisely communicate what you want. As a manager of people, as someone who has done many, many legal contracts, you know how hard that is.[00:50:42] swyx: And then now we have to talk to machines doing that and AIs interpreting what we mean and reading our minds effectively. I don't know how to get across that barrier of translating human intent to instructions. And yes, it can be more declarative, but I don't know if it'll ever Crossover from being [00:51:00] a programming language to something more than that.[00:51:02] Bret: I agree with you. And I actually do think if you look at like a legal contract, you know, the imprecision of the English language, it's like a flaw in the system. How many[00:51:12] swyx: holes there are.[00:51:13] Bret: And I do think that when you're making a mission critical software system, I don't think it should be English language prompts.[00:51:19] Bret: I think that is silly because you want the precision of a a programming language. My point was less about that and more about if the actual act of authoring it, like if you.[00:51:32] Formal Verification in Software[00:51:32] Bret: I'll think of some embedded systems do use formal verification. I know it's very common in like security protocols now so that you can, because the importance of correctness is so great.[00:51:41] Bret: My intellectual exercise is like, why not do that for all software? I mean, probably that's silly just literally to do what we literally do for. These low level security protocols, but the only reason we don't is because it's hard and tedious and hard and tedious are no longer factors. So, like, if I could, I mean, [00:52:00] just think of, like, the silliest app on your phone right now, the idea that that app should be, like, formally verified for its correctness feels laughable right now because, like, God, why would you spend the time on it?[00:52:10] Bret: But if it's zero costs, like, yeah, I guess so. I mean, it never crashed. That's probably good. You know, why not? I just want to, like, set our bars really high. Like. We should make, software has been amazing. Like there's a Mark Andreessen blog post, software is eating the world. And you know, our whole life is, is mediated digitally.[00:52:26] Bret: And that's just increasing with AI. And now we'll have our personal agents talking to the agents on the CRO platform and it's agents all the way down, you know, our core infrastructure is running on these digital systems. We now have like, and we've had a shortage of software developers for my entire life.[00:52:45] Bret: And as a consequence, you know if you look, remember like health care, got healthcare. gov that fiasco security vulnerabilities leading to state actors getting access to critical infrastructure. I'm like. We now have like created this like amazing system that can [00:53:00] like, we can fix this, you know, and I, I just want to, I'm both excited about the productivity gains in the economy, but I just think as software engineers, we should be bolder.[00:53:08] Bret: Like we should have aspirations to fix these systems so that like in general, as you said, as precise as we want to be in the specification of the system. We can make it work correctly now, and I'm being a little bit hand wavy, and I think we need some systems. I think that's where we should set the bar, especially when so much of our life depends on this critical digital infrastructure.[00:53:28] Bret: So I'm I'm just like super optimistic about it. But actually, let's go to w

Chaos and security concerns continue in Washington. Spanish authorities arrest a man suspected of hacking NATO, the UN, and the US Army. A major U.S. hiring platform exposes millions of resumes. Another British engineering firm suffers a cyberattack. Cisco patches multiple vulnerabilities. Cybercriminals exploit SVG files in phishing attacks. SparkCat SDK targets cryptocurrency via Android and iOS apps. CISA directs federal agencies to patch a high-severity Linux kernel flaw. Thailand leaves scamming syndicates in the dark. Positive trends in the fight against ransomware. Our guest is Cliff Crosland, CEO and Co-founder at Scanner.dev, discusses the evolution of security data lakes and the "bring your own" model for security tools. Don't eff with the FCC. Remember to leave us a 5-star rating and review in your favorite podcast app. Miss an episode? Sign-up for our daily intelligence roundup, Daily Briefing, and you'll never miss a beat. And be sure to follow CyberWire Daily on LinkedIn. CyberWire Guest Today on our Industry Voices segment, guest Cliff Crosland, CEO and Co-founder at Scanner.dev, discusses the evolution of security data lakes and the "bring your own" model for security tools. For some additional details, check out their blog on “Security Data Lakes: A New Tool for Threat Hunting, Detection & Response, and GenAI-Powered Analysis.” Selected Reading Musk's DOGE agents access sensitive personnel data, alarming security officials (Washington Post) Union groups sue Treasury over giving DOGE access to sensitive data (The Record) Hacker Who Targeted NATO, US Army Arrested in Spain (SecurityWeek) Hiring platform serves users raw with 5.4 million CVs exposed (Cybernews) IMI becomes the latest British engineering firm to be hacked (TechCrunch) Cisco Patches Critical Vulnerabilities in Enterprise Security Product (SecurityWeek) Scalable Vector Graphics files pose a novel phishing threat (Sophos News) Crypto-stealing apps found in Apple App Store for the first time (Bleeping Computer) Ransomware payments dropped in 2024 as victims refused to pay hackers (TechCrunch) CISA orders agencies to patch Linux kernel bug exploited in attacks (Bleeping Computer) Thailand cuts power supply to Myanmar scam hubs (The Record) Robocallers posing as FCC fraud prevention team call FCC staff (Bleeping Computer) Share your feedback. We want to ensure that you are getting the most out of the podcast. Please take a few minutes to share your thoughts with us by completing our brief listener survey as we continually work to improve the show.  Want to hear your company in the show? You too can reach the most influential leaders and operators in the industry. Here's our media kit. Contact us at cyberwire@n2k.com to request more info. The CyberWire is a production of N2K Networks, your source for strategic workforce intelligence. © N2K Networks, Inc. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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