Decoder with Nilay Patel

Hey everybody, it's Nilay. We've got a little bonus drop for you today — I was recently interviewed about AI safety by Shumita Basu for Apple News In Conversation, and I enjoyed the conversation so much I asked if we could share it with you all.  We've actually got a few bonus drops coming up this month; we've been having a lot of great conversations lately, and we want to get them out to you on the news cycle. And of course, nothing is moving as fast as the AI safety news cycle. So enjoy this one, and we'll see you next time. Links:  Apple News In Conversation | Apple Podcasts Inside the suddenly explosive world of AI safety | The Verge Here's what AI leaders are saying about Trump's new safety plan | The Verge One company is at the center of a wave of rogue AI attacks | The Verge Microsoft AI CEO says AI threats are real, and Anthropic is making it worse | Decoder Does AI need an antitrust exemption so it doesn't kill everyone? | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge⁠ to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. The show is edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I'm talking with Josh Dzieza, a longtime features writer here at The Verge, about a massive data center in Utah that does not exist, might never exist, and yet has already completely reshaped the politics of the entire state.  Josh just published a major feature this week on the struggling Stratos data center project in Utah backed by Shark Tank star Kevin O'Leary. So I invited Josh on the show to discuss what's happening inside the AI industry's infrastructure boom, inside the bipartisan backlash to data centers, and how the tech industry is running into the one obstacle it can't seem to spend its way out of: local democracy.  Links:  The People of Utah vs. Kevin O'Leary | The Verge Adams — burdened by data center fallout — ousted by voters | Salt Lake Tribune ‘Shark Tank' star sued by opponents he claimed were foreign agents| NYT Fox News apologizes for airing O'Leary claims about data centers | The Hill Kevin O'Leary agrees to downsize massive Utah data center | The Verge The biggest data center ever is becoming a huge problem in Utah | The Verge America's data center future is Loudoun County's past | The Verge The left and right agree on one thing: no data centers | Decoder Decoder is a Signal Awards finalist in the Business category! You can vote to help us win ⁠here⁠. Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder's producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Mike Cannon-Brookes, who is co-founder and CEO of Atlassian. Atlassian is one of those companies that every other company runs on — it makes important platform tools like Jira and Trello. This means Atlassian is also right in the middle of the way AI is changing how all these companies work.  Or, if you buy the idea of the so-called SaaSpocalypse, AI might just build all of these tools for you, destroying this entire category of businesses. Obviously, Mike had a lot of thoughts pushing back on this narrative, so we spent time really digging in and talking through what AI is doing to enterprise software.  Links:  How Australia became the test bed for tech regulation | Decoder (2021) Building a $45B company far from Silicon Valley's ‘froth and bubbles' | Semafor Atlassian CEO Mike Cannon-Brookes on Atlassian and AI | Stratechery How Atlassian shook off the 'SaaSpocalypse' for a big rally  | IBD Atlassian acquires The Browser Company, maker of the Arc browser | The Verge Atlassian Co-CEO resigns, leaving Cannon-Brookes as sole chief | Bloomberg Atlassian cuts 1,600 jobs amid AI push | Forbes Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder's producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinde Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Cloudflare discovered in June that bots already make up more than half of internet traffic — and CEO Matthew Prince says that bots could outnumber humans a thousand to one within five years. That's a huge change to the internet, and if the web is going to keep existing, it needs a huge change to its business model. Can Cloudflare use its place in the ecosystem to direct the money back to the people who make content? Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  How I choose which Cloudflare employees to replace with AI | Wall Street Journal Why Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince is the internet's unlikely defender | Decoder (2024) Cloudflare will now block AI crawlers by default | The Verge Patreon partners with Cloudflare to block AI crawlers | 404 Media Sony and Warner sue Anthropic in latest AI music lawsuit | Billboard Trump administration supports OpenAI in NYT copyright lawsuit  | The Verge Google Zero is here — now what? | The Verge (2024) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder's producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's a big week for Meta. The company has its big Connect conference, and the new Muse AI agent appears to be an early hit. CEO Mark Zuckerberg has been doing a lot of interviews about it all — so of course we asked for him to be on Decoder. Meta declined, for whatever reason.  But luckily Mark just did a big interview with our friend and former colleague Alex Heath on the Sources podcast. So I figured we could highlight some moments from that conversation to point out some obvious gaps in what Mark is saying about Meta and hopefully inspire the next set of people who talk to him with some follow-up questions. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Mark Zuckerberg interview | Sources Podcast How Meta got everything it wanted in secret data center deal | New York Times Can you forget how you feel about Meta? | The Verge Zuck doesn't want to press pause on AI | The Verge Meta glasses are a workplace menace | The Verge Mark Zuckerberg doesn't understand how to live | The Verge Four takeaways from Mark Zuckerberg's massive AI manifesto | The Verge Meta says US states are seeking $1.4 trillion in penalties  | Reuters Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder's producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I'm talking with Bloomberg's Mark Gurman, who is the world's best-sourced Apple reporter. Earlier this month, Apple hosted its annual iPhone hardware event, and this event was special, for a number of reasons.  It was new Apple CEO John Ternus' first major product launch. It was also the debut of the foldable iPhone Duo. So I wanted Mark on the show to explain why this event was so important, and how John Ternus' Apple will look a lot different from Tim Cook's.  Links:  Apple iPhone Duo launch event: the 5 biggest announcements | The Verge The iPhone Duo is Apple's first foldable | The Verge Tim Cook's CEO-like pay package shows he isn't going anywhere | Bloomberg Apple's Phil Schiller steps down from running App Store | Bloomberg Apple's new CEO will need to soon overhaul his management team | Bloomberg Apple's Ternus takes the reins as CEO, with AI as job No. 1 | Bloomberg Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The biggest story in tech right now is the spiraling debate about AI safety and regulation. The CEOs of all these companies have issued various calls to slow down development and develop regulation, including asking for antitrust exemptions so they can all coordinate on safety issues. So to make sense of it all, I called Jonathan Kanter, the former antitrust chief for the U.S. Department of Justice in the Biden Administration. There's a lot going on, and we really got into the weeds of how all this regulation might work, and how it might interact with antitrust law, competition policy, and our relationship with China. Links:  Is Big Tech's AI slowdown a safety pact or a cartel? | The Verge Inside the suddenly explosive world of AI safety | The Verge Execs and politicians on slowing down AI development | The Verge Microsoft AI CEO: AI threats are real, Anthropic makes it worse | The Verge Lina Khan: We don't need new laws to prosecute AI CEOs | Gizmodo Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder's producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I'm talking with Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI. As you're no doubt aware, the biggest story in tech right now is the spiraling debate about AI safety and regulation. So I really wanted to talk to Mustafa about what he thinks is real and not in AI safety, whether the concept of alignment itself is up to the task, and whether this industry needs to slow down before it kills us all.  Links:  A warning about ‘model welfare' | Mustafa Suleyman Humanist AI Code of Conduct | Microsoft Is Big Tech's AI slowdown a safety pact or a cartel? | The Verge A brief history of AI executives calling for regulation | The Verge What execs and politicians are saying about slowing down AI development | The Verge Anthropic CEO says it's time to pump the brakes on AI | The Verge Microsoft's AI chief says superintelligence is near, but won't take your job | Decoder (2026) Mustafa Suleyman says conversational AI is the next web browser | Decoder (2024) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder's producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Adam Conover is a familiar face to anyone who's spent time on the internet. He got his start at CollegeHumor back in the day, before transitioning into cable TV with Adam Ruins Everything, then onto Netflix, and all the way back to YouTube again, where he posts videos and hosts a podcast. That is exactly the kind of career path that fascinates me, and it also happens to touch on basically every major Decoder theme there is.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  YouTube is making it harder to earn money on YouTube | The Verge Adam Conover regrets shilling Sam Altman's World | The Verge Elon Musk is an idiot | Adam Conover How HBO's creatives survived corporate chaos | Decoder YouTube's Neal Mohan on the future for creators | Decoder (2021) Banning Trump was the right decision, says Instagram's Mosseri | Decoder (2021) Ethics in journalism, with Ben Smith | Decoder Hank Green will gladly take billionaires' money for education | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder's producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We're back with another Decoder mailbag special. This time, we focused on feedback to Nilay's “software brain” video essay, our ongoing coverage of AI and Big Tech backlash, surveillance, interviewing politicians ahead of the midterms, and more. Remember: we really do read every email, so please keep sending us your feedback, and letting us know what you think of our coverage and how we can improve.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  How to win — and lose — Decoder | Decoder Mailbag (2026) Nilay answers your burning Decoder questions | Decoder Mailbag (2025) Answering your biggest Decoder questions | Decoder Mailbag (2024) Sundar Pichai on AI, search, and the future of the web | Decoder (2026) The people do not yearn for automation | Decoder Bluesky's new CEO wants a big tent, not a bubble | Decoder New York Governor Kathy Hochul thinks AI should be ‘less evil' | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Gregg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Sonos CEO Tom Conrad. Tom was on the board at Sonos during the disastrous 2024 app redesign that threatened to crash the entire brand, and he took over as interim CEO to right the ship during that period. About a year ago, he took the permanent role.  I have been dying to have Tom on the show to talk about how the board decided to move on from previous CEO Patrick Spence, how he diagnosed the issues inside the company, and what decisions he made to fix them. Plus. Tom was willing to get into the weeds and nerd out with me, and I think this one is pretty fun because of it. Links:  After two years of turmoil, Sonos attempts a triumphant return | The Verge How Sonos' Tom Conrad Is reshaping the brand after app disaster | Bloomberg An in-depth interview with Sonos interim CEO Tom Conrad | The Verge (2025) Sonos' smart assistant is expanding from music to home control | The Verge Inside Sonos' decision to sue Google — and how it won | Decoder (2022) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's an election year, with a shocking amount of tech policy at stake, and Gov.Hochul has taken strong positions on almost every major tech issue there is. You'll hear us talk about the settlement Meta reached with dozens of states, including New York, and about widespread age verification. We also discussed 3D printing ghost guns; surveillance and Flock cameras; the politics of building — or not building — AI data centers; and, of course, Mayor Zohran Mamdani. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links: New Yorkers will need to verify their age for algorithmic feeds | The Verge The cat-and-mouse game over 3D-printed guns has begun | The Verge Hochul says she's using AI to analyze ‘every single rule' in New York | The Verge NY becomes the first state to enact a data center moratorium | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder's producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I'm talking with Hayden Field, The Verge's senior AI reporter, about some pure Decoder bait: the seemingly-endless org chart changes at OpenAI, and how all of them seem to consolidate power under cofounder Greg Brockman, the company's president. While Sam Altman is the CEO and still OpenAI's most public face, Brockman has amassed enormous power and influence within the top ranks of the company as other senior leaders have left in rapid succession. So I wanted Hayden to break down for me what's going on at OpenAI, and the increasingly important role Greg Brockman will play in its future. Links:  It's Greg Brockman's OpenAI now | The Verge OpenAI's Brockman brushes off concerns about leadership changes | CNBC Sam Altman on building OpenAI & betting on the impossible | David Senra OpenAI's Q2 sales show tepid growth compared to Anthropic | WSJ Anthropic's revenue run rate reportedly surpasses $65 billion pre-IPO | Axios OpenAI President On Reinventing Computers | Johanna Stern / YouTube Greg Brockman takes control of OpenAI's products in latest shake-up | Wired OpenAI's president is a Trump mega-donor | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tim Cadogan is CEO of GoFundMe, the for-profit platform where you can donate to help people with everything from medical expenses to little league uniforms to starting a new business. Tim took over as CEO in March 2020 — a chaotic moment when GoFundMe became a load-bearing part of American culture. So you can imagine I had a lot of questions for Tim, how he thinks about all this, and how he makes some very tough decisions on what money to make and what money not to make.  Links:  The GoFundMe CEO wants you to ask: ‘How can I help?' | New York TImes GoFundMe CEO: We weren't meant to replace COVID relief | USA Today GoFundMe Is a healthcare utility now | The Atlantic As Gaza is bombarded, GoFundMe donations are stuck in limbo | The Verge For the uninsured, crowdfunding provides little help in paying for healthcare | University of Washington Oregon nonprofits claim GoFundMe impersonated them | Central Oregon Daily News The causes and consequences of medical crowdfunding | ScienceDirect Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder's producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Robert Hart, The Verge's London-based AI reporter. Robert recently wrote a fantastic story for us about the debate raging inside the world of mathematics — and the existential crisis over what it means that new frontier AI models have become very good at math in a shockingly short period of time.  I wanted to dive into all of this with Robert, who actually spoke to some of the most accomplished mathematicians working today to figure out what's hype and what's real — and to get a sense of just how exciting, and how scary, all of this is.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  The AI takeover of mathematics has begun | The Verge Ten advances in mathematics and theoretical computer science | OpenAI An unreleased Anthropic model made progress on the Riemann hypothesis| TechCrunch OpenAI's amazing — but vastly oversold — new model Astra | Gary Marcus OpenAI's math breakthrough played to AI's strengths | Understanding AI Why the legendary Erdős problems are falling to AI | Quanta Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our supervising producer is Greg Ott, and our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I'm talking to Ben Smith, the editor-in-chief of Semafor. Ben ran BuzzFeed News at the height of the Facebook traffic boom, and even wrote a book about it, called Traffic, which he discussed with me on Decoder back in 2023.  Semafor, which is only four years old, is now a fast-growing and profitable media company, which makes about half of its revenue from events. So I wanted to talk to Ben about how that all works, and what it feels like to navigate the ethical conflicts that seem to be everywhere in media right now.  Links:  Jonah Peretti explains why he sold BuzzFeed | Decoder What's after the social media era in news? | Decoder (2023) Semafor raises $30 Million after first profitable year | The Wrap Semafor's new AI tool helped boil down its flagship conference | Nieman Lab Semafor launches Silicon Valley & The World | Semafor Semafor takes aim at Davos as events surpass half Its revenue | Adweek Semafor Is Betting Big on 'Anti-Scale' Video | Adweek Semafor wants to be ‘business outlet of record in the Gulf” | Press Gazette Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder's producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our Supervising Producer is Greg Ott and our Editorial Director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is The Verge's Hayden Field, and we're discussing a question that's been rocketing around the tech industry for the past week: Is Google losing the AI race? That's because last week, the company announced a bombshell reorganization of its AI division. You can read these moves, and Google's reaction, in a lot of different ways. So I really wanted to sit down with Hayden to dig into some of the smartest analysis we've seen this past week, and what we think is really going on here. Links:  The messy politics behind Google's big AI shakeup | The Verge Gemini is cooked but GCP is cooking | SemiAnalysis Google announced a major shakeup of its top AI leadership | The Verge AI lab musical chairs hits Google the hardest | Axios Demis Hassabis said this might be the ‘foothills of the singularity.' What? | The Verge Google's AI architect lived rent-free in Elon Musk's head | The Verge Sundar Pichai on AI, search, and the future of the web | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our supervising producer is Greg Ott, and our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Lila Snyder, the CEO of Bose. Lila was last on the show about four years ago, and since then she's dramatically rearchitected the company — she sold off Bose Professional, acquired the high end audio brands McIntosh Labs and Sonus faber, and, perhaps most importantly, started licensing all that core Bose technology to other companies. That big change in the business comes with a big change in structure. Becoming a software company in addition to a product company comes with a whole new set of challenges, and Lila and I got into how it's all working.  Links: How Bose competes with AirPods, with CEO Lila Snyder | Decoder (2022) Bose thinks it can be a media company for some reason | The Verge Bose acquires premium audio brand McIntosh | The Verge Bose reinvented itself just in time. Now comes the tricky part | Wired Bose sells off its premium division after 50 years | Bose Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our supervising producer is Greg Ott, and our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Our guest today is Gaby Del Valle, a policy reporter here at The Verge, and we're discussing the growing backlash against AI data centers. Gaby recently reported a fantastic piece about Hernando County, Florida, where last month the county commission unanimously approved a year-long moratorium on data center construction. So I wanted Gaby to talk me through what these protests look like on the ground, from voters whose party affiliations have typically aligned them with big business. Links:  Right-wingers protesting data centers have a lot in common with the left | The Verge No data centers in my backyard | Jasmine Sun Who's afraid of the big, bad GPU? | The Verge  NY becomes the first state to enact a data center moratorium | The Verge The fight against AI data centers is just beginning | The Verge Florida gives millions in tax breaks to data centers under DeSantis-backed law | Tampa Bay Times Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our supervising producer is Greg Ott, and our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I'm talking with Toni Schneider, the new head of social platform Bluesky who formally took over after a short stint as interim CEO. This is one of my favorite kinds of interviews, because a couple years ago we had Bluesky's prior CEO, Jay Graber, on the show — she's now the company's chief innovation officer. All of that kind of shuffle is pure Decoder bait: a new CEO often brings with them new priorities, which is perhaps the most Decoder subject of all. Links:  Bluesky CEO Jay Graber | Decoder (2024) Bluesky CEO Jay Graber steps down | TechCrunch Staying in the game | Toni Schneider The messy WordPress drama, explained | The Verge Proton CTO Bart Butler | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder's producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, this is Nick Statt, senior producer on Decoder. We're taking a brief publishing break while Nilay is out on vacation. We'll resume regular programming next week, and we've got some great episodes in the works.  In the meantime, we wanted to share an episode from the excellent podcast The Gray Area, with host Sean Illing. In this one, Sean sat down with The Atlantic journalist Charlie Warzel to talk specifically about the state of the internet in 2026 — and what it means that it feels increasingly overrun by non-human actors.  Links:  The Gray Area with Sean Illing | Apple Podcasts Galaxy Brain | The Atlantic The internet is all bots now | The Gray Area (YouTube) The feeling of control slipping away | The Atlantic How much of the internet is fake? Turns out, a lot of it, actually| New York Magazine How bots took over our lives | The New Yorker The ‘dead internet theory' is real — and it's killing the web | Fast Company The fanfare around the band Geese actually was a psyop | Wired Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Evan Smith, cofounder and CEO of Altana, was last on the show in early 2025 to talk about how Trump's first few waves of tariffs were starting to affect global trade. It was a very alarming and also very illuminating chat; Evan and I got into the existential weeds of international relations and economics almost immediately. A year and a half later, and everything is somehow even more chaotic than it was the last time Evan and I talked — and that's true about both trade and also the world of running a software company. Agentic AI, whack-a-mole tariff policy, war in Iran — we jumped right back into weeds yet again. Read the full interview transcript The Verge. Links:  How Trump's tariff chaos is already changing global trade | Decoder Skydio CEO Adam Bry on not drawing red lines for drone use | Decoder Trump imposes new global tariffs, drawing protests from trading partners | Reuters Greer: USMCA Talks Could Stretch Into Next Year | Wall Street Journal Trump hits Canada with new 50% tariffs | Associated Press Iran weaponized the Strait of Hormuz. Now neighbors are going around it | CNN The Iran war is testing Southeast Asia's faith in the US | Politico Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder's producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I'm talking with Hayden Field, The Verge's senior AI reporter, about the major trade secrets lawsuit between Apple and OpenAI, and what this tells us about OpenAI's future.  Hayden has been covering OpenAI for years now, and she also just talked to a bunch of lawyers who specialize in intellectual property and trade secret law to get a sense of how serious this case is. The answer is not entirely positive for OpenAI. This legal battle could also affect OpenAI's hardware plans, its forthcoming IPO, and its already-damaged reputation.  Links:  Sam Altman didn't need another lawsuit | The Verge OpenAI's first device will be moveable, screenless speaker | Bloomberg Apple sues OpenAI for allegedly stealing hardware secrets | The Verge The 6 wildest claims in Apple's lawsuit against OpenAI | The Verge OpenAI is buying Jony Ive's AI hardware company | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dr. Jill Lepore is one of the best writers there is at identifying institutional patterns in history, and Decoder is a show about systems and organization — so her new book, The Rise and Fall of the Artificial State, is a perfect fit for the show. You build systems by measuring things — gathering information, quantifying it as data, and taking action on it. The book's big thesis is that this kind of systemic measurement is really a dehumanizing act, one that flattens humanity and human concerns into something, well, artificial. These artificial structures touch everything — not just in the more obvious places like in apps or AI, but all the way up to politics, governance, and the very future of the nation-state itself. Links:  The Artificial State | The New Yorker  ‘Terminator' to tech titans: Jill Lepore on the ‘artificial state' | Yale Univ. The failed ideas that drive Elon Musk | New York Times Sam Altman | The Joe Rogan Experience Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder's producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We've got the first of a two-part series on the systems that run the world: I'm talking today with Bart Butler, the CTO of Proton, the company that makes private and secure productivity software. There's a lot of big Decoder themes in this one. That includes how Proton has structured its ownership and architected its products to align its incentives with protecting users. At the same time, Proton faces new challenges and pressures, both at home in Switzerland and from the EU and US government that are putting its values to the test.  Links:  Proton now offers an entire bundle of office services | The Verge Proton Mail helped FBI unmask anonymous ‘Stop Cop City' protester | 404Media Proton says it will leave Switzerland if this controversial law Is passed | Vice Age verification is a mess but we're doing it anyway | The Verge Let's build a children's public internet | The Verge Let me see some ID: age verification is spreading across the internet | The Verge Why Chat Control 1.0 is the EU's most Orwellian law yet | Euronews Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Nvidia is obviously in the news constantly because of the AI boom — but it's also a major supplier to the entire auto industry As head of Nvidia's automotive division, Xinzhou Wu has a front-row seat to all the challenges EVs and autonomous vehicles are facing, especially in the US. And of course, you can't talk about electric cars or vehicle autonomy in the US without talking about Elon Musk and Tesla. So I asked Xinzhou pretty directly if Tesla full self driving can actually do what Elon claims it will be able to do without using LiDAR. You tell me if you think his answer holds up. Read the ⁠full interview transcript on The Verge⁠. Links:  Nvidia's head of autonomous driving opens up about his plans | The Verge Hyundai, Nissan, BYD, and Geely Join Nvidia's Level 4 | MotorTrend Nvidia, auto suppliers roll out partnerships to rekindle self-driving  | Reuters Meet Alpamayo, Nvidia's new AI model for autonomous cars | Forbes I tested Nvidia's FSD competitor — Tesla should be worried | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder's producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt; this episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Peter Kafka, chief correspondent at Business Insider and host of Channels, a podcast about the media industry. And it's a big week for the media industry — Comcast just announced that it's splitting itself up, into the Comcast broadband company and the NBCUniversal entertainment company. This dream, that you can combine distribution with big splashy entertainment properties, has failed time and again. But Comcast tried the content plus pipes strategy for longer than most. So Peter and I discussed what happened in the media and broadband industries over the last 15 years, and what might happen next.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Comcast is cutting NBCUniversal loose | Business Insider Comcast's split could make or break Peacock | The Verge Comcast and NBCUniversal will go it alone. But for how long? | NYT Comcast split shows bigger is no longer better | Deadline A cable scion's hardest deal yet: breaking up his family's company | WSJ Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I'm talking with Ali Berman and Raina Penchansky, who run the Creators Division at United Talent Agency. UTA is an enormous talent agency, and Ali and Raina's creators division represents some of the biggest creators and influencers in the world. So I really wanted to know how Raina and Ali identify up-and-coming talent, how they work with that talent to build durable businesses, and what the machinations of being a top creator actually look like in practice. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  The power brokers behind the $250B influencer economy | Wall Street Journal The Influencer Cliff | Carmen Vicente (TikTok) UTA Unveils Upscale Office for Creators | The Hollywood Reporter YouTube Stars Breach Hollywood's Most Gilded Gate | New York Times CAA, TPG form holding company to acquire creator-led businesses | Variety How creator talent agencies are evolving into multi-platform operators | Digiday Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt; this episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We've got a special Decoder today. I had the chance to talk with Amy Lanzi, the CEO of Digitas North America, in front of a live audience at the Uber villa at the Cannes Lions advertising festival in the south of France. There's a lot in this one on AI, the creator economy, and the future of marketing – like I said, Amy is as sharp as they come, and I really enjoy talking to her about how the money really works. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  The Influencer Cliff | Carmen Vicente (TikTok) The Wrong Promises | Publicis Groupe (YouTube) You can just tell the Instagram algorithm what you want now | The Verge How brands and creators are fighting for your attention and money | Decoder (2025) How influencers are changing advertising, with Digitas' Amy Lanzi | Decoder (2024) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's time for our annual Fourth of July grill episode here at Decoder, which is when we invite the CEOs of outdoor cooking companies onto the show to explain just how their businesses kind of look like every other business. And this is a very special edition.  Today we're talking to Roger Dahle, the CEO of Weber Blackstone, a full circle moment for Decoder. Roger was our first-ever grill CEO on the show back when he was the CEO of just Blackstone. Five years later, Roger now runs one of his biggest competitors, after Blackstone announced a merger with Weber in 2024. So we talked about that process, and how Roger is managing the integration of these two grilling giants.  Links:  Weber and Blackstone to combine | The Verge How Blackstone became the darling of grill TikTok | Decoder (2021) How arson led to a culture reboot at Traeger, with CEO Jeremy Andrus | Decoder (2022) Big Green Egg CEO Dan Gertsacov on growing kamado cooking | Decoder (2024) How SharkNinja took over the home | Decoder (2025) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, Nilay here. You might remember I took a break from Decoder last year — we had a baby, so I took some leave. In my place, we had an excellent slate of guest hosts, and we've been working hard to bring you those episodes in full video since we launched our official Decoder YouTube channel. So today, we're featuring a really great interview conducted by my very good friend Joanna Stern, now the founder and CEO of New Things, and Ford CEO Jim Farley. Joanna pulled some exclusive news out of Jim at the time, including some telling quotes on Trump's tariff policy, on Ford competing with Chinese EVs, and the company's stance on Apple CarPlay.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Ford CEO Jim Farley on China, tariffs, and the quest for a $30,000 EV | Decoder Joanna Stern is not a robot, but she lived with them | Decoder Ford's Jim Farley: 'I totally would've done it differently.' | The Verge Ford pulls the plug on the all-electric F-150 Lightning pickup truck | NPR Inside the lab where Ford is trying to crack the code on cheap EVs | The Verge Ford is fighting against physics to build affordable EVs | The Verge Ford reveals breakthrough process for lower priced EVs | The Verge Ford CEO Jim Farley on building the electric F-150 | Decoder (2021) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A lot has changed on the internet, in the creator landscape, and at Patreon itself since CEO Jack Conte was last on the show in 2021. AI and platform shifts have stolen creator content and decimated artists' reach and revenue streams, and Patreon has made some pretty existential changes to the way it works in response.  Links:  My thoughts on AI | Patreon I tried to prove I'm not AI | Howtown Patreon: Apple's 30% tax is the price of staying in the App Store | The Verge Welcome to hell, Elon (2022) | The Verge Reality is losing the deepfake war | Decoder Elon Musk is steamrolling Wall Street to become a trillionaire | Decoder Incorruptible | Simon & Schuster Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Hayden Field, senior AI reporter for The Verge. Often when Hayden comes on the show, it's because something has gone wrong in the world of AI. Last weekend, that something was a pretty intense mix of Anthropic, the Trump administration, and Anthropic's new AI model, Fable 5.  Hayden actually just published a fantastic play-by-play on The Verge about how the Fable ban went down, and the scramble through the weekend from both sides to figure out what exactly happened and how it might get resolved. So I wanted her to come on and just walk me through the timeline and what it all means. Links:  Inside the fight over Claude Mythos 5 | ⁠The Verge⁠ Anthropic cuts off Fable 5 and Mythos 5 access following government order | ⁠The Verge⁠ Anthropic got hit by export rules nobody understands | ⁠The Verge⁠ Anthropic's safety superpower | ⁠Stratechery⁠ "They screwed us": Personality clashes sent Anthropic's models offline | ⁠Axios⁠ Anthropic's call for AI nonproliferation | ⁠New York Times⁠ Trump signs exec order to review AI models before release | ⁠The Verge⁠ New Anthropic model finds security problems ‘in every major OS, browser' | ⁠The Verge⁠ Subscribe to The Verge⁠ to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I'm talking with Slydio CEO Adam Bry, who runs the leading US maker of autonomous drones. We covered a lot in this conversation, including Skydio's police and government work at a time when military use of AI is more controversial than ever and competing with Chinese drones against the backdrop of the Trump's administration's DJI ban. There's a lot in this one – maybe more than anything, it was refreshing to hear Adam talk about using AI to bring even more people to work at Skydio as the company expands. I also got to fly a drone, which ruled. Links:  Sorry kid, drones are for war now | The Verge The FCC's foreign drone ban is here | The Verge Skydio is pivoting to enterprise — its consumer drones are dead | The Verge Skydio commits $3.5B to expand US manufacturing | Skydio A US drone maker tries to take back the country's skies | Bloomberg DEA looks to add Skydio, Parrot drones to its arsenal | FedScoop The future of border security isn't at the border at all | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey! Nilay here. It's conference season, so I'm traveling across the country and around the world a lot more than usual. Stay tuned for some very special Decoder episodes we have coming up soon, starting on Monday.  In the meantime, I wanted to share a conversation between my friend Peter Kafka and Condé Nast CEO Roger Lynch on the excellent Channels podcast. Lynch says he's told his teams to assume that traffic will be zero from now on — that's what I've been calling Google Zero. Roger also shares his thoughts on AI, the growing influence of the creator economy, and more. Links:  Channels with Peter Kafka | Apple Podcasts Condé Nast CEO: Plan As If Search Traffic Will Be Zero | Search Engine Journal Sundar Pichai on AI, the future of search, and what's happening to the web | Decoder Google Zero is here — now what? | Decoder Google admits the open web is in ‘rapid decline' | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I'm talking with Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI. This is a real burner of an episode. We covered everything from his approach to training new models to his criticisms of Anthropic talking about Claude as though it is conscious.  Of course, we also talked about Microsoft's relationship with OpenAI, how Mustafa is thinking about all the negative polling and political pushback around AI right now, and whether any of the consumer products are good enough to overcome it. Like I said, it's a burner. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Microsoft and OpenAI broke up — now they're ready to fight | The Verge Microsoft Build 2026: The 7 biggest announcements | The Verge Microsoft's first advanced reasoning AI is here | The Verge Microsoft's new ‘superintelligence' game plan is all about business | The Verge Here's how the new Microsoft and OpenAI deal breaks down | The Verge Microsoft AI chief says 18 months until white-collar tasks automated by AI | FT Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Ryan Mac, a technology reporter at The New York Times and co-author of the excellent book Character Limit: How Elon Musk Destroyed Twitter, which came out in 2024. I wanted to have Ryan on today because we're on the cusp of the SpaceX IPO, which promises to be one of the most consequential public offerings in history for a variety of reasons.  Its biggest-ever size, of course, at nearly $2 trillion dollars. But also because all kinds of rules that keep our markets fair are being bent, if not outright broken, along the way. And, also because buried somewhere inside SpaceX is X, the social platform formerly known as Twitter, which Musk purchased in 2022. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Welcome to hell, Elon | The Verge The SpaceX IPO is great for Elon Musk and terrible for you | The Verge In SpaceX's IPO, Elon Musk is the risk factor | The Verge For Wall Street, the only thing worse than SpaceX flopping is missing out | NYT How SpaceX Is structured to favor Elon Musk | NYT As the SpaceX hype machine steamrolls ahead, Wall Street jumps aboard | NYT The SpaceX IPO Reveals What Really Happened to Twitter | NY Mag Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I last talked to Recording Academy CEO Harvey Mason Jr in 2024 — when it was obvious that generative AI would upend the music industry, but not exactly clear how that would happen. Now, Harvey says AI is “omnipresent” in music production. So what kinds of tools are musicians using, in what way, and what kind of music is it making for us? Is it any good? And how do we identify, and take care of, actual human musicians in this mess? Links:  Why the Grammys need to change, with CEO Harvey Mason Jr | Decoder Is ‘blue dot fever' a real problem for the concert industry? | Los Angeles Times USA v. LiveNation-Ticketmaster: All the news | The Verge The future of country music is here, and it's AI | The Verge Poll: AI is transforming how we think about music | Hollywood Reporter Inside the ‘don't ask, don't tell' era of AI in music | Rolling Stone Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I'm talking with Wassym Bensaid, the chief software officer at Rivian, and the co-ceo of Rivian's platform joint venture with Volkswagen. That joint venture, called RV Tech, is about a year and a half old, so I wanted to ask Wassym how it all works and Rivian's ongoing relationship with Volkswagen.  Because it's Rivian, I also had to ask Wassym about CarPlay. But the company also just launched an AI-powered voice assistant, which I got to try early. So I had a lot of fun digging into that with Wassym, too. This is a fun one – really in the weeds of a lot of my favorite things to talk about. Links:  Rivian's AI-powered voice assistant is ready to roll | The Verge The R2 is nearly here — can Rivian stick the landing? | The Verge Rivian's AI pivot is about more than chasing Tesla | The Verge Rivian / VW will start testing their first EVs next year | The Verge Rivian CEO: ‘We're really convicted' about skipping CarPlay | Decoder (2025) Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe says too many carmakers are copying Tesla | Decoder (2024) Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe isn't scared of the Cybertruck | Decoder (2023) Rivian's chief software officer says in-car buttons are ‘an anomaly' | TechCrunch Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt,. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Connecting with Google CEO Sundar Pichai at I/O every year is one of my favorite Decoder traditions. This was our fifth year doing it, and there's always a whole slew of new things to talk about. This year, in addition to the news, we talked about Google Zero; picking fights with YouTube creators and publishers; and what being at “the foothills of the singularity" even means.  Links:  If Google can't make AI agents useful, maybe no one can | The Verge The future of Google is a search box that does everything | The Verge Large language mistake | The Verge You can now remix other people's YouTube Shorts with AI | The Verge Condé Nast calls Google Zero | The Verge Demis Hassabis said this may be the ‘foothills of the singularity' | The Verge Google I/O 2026: All the news and announcements | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Musk v Altman was nominally about OpenAI's conversion to a for-profit entity, and how it went about that change. But really, the suit seems mostly to have been about Elon Musk being mad at Sam Altman — or at OpenAI, for being successful without him — and wanting him punished in some way. Verge reporter Liz Lopatto spent the last month covering the trial, in all its chaos, and joins Decoder to ask: In a courtroom full of untrustworthy, unreliable people all fighting with each other, did anyone even have a reputation left to lose? Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Elon Musk loses his case against Sam Altman | The Verge Musk v. Altman proved AI is led by the wrong people | The Verge Musk v. Altman accomplished nothing but airing dirty laundry | The Verge Elon Musk's worst enemy in court is Elon Musk | The Verge Behold, the Elon Musk jackass trophy | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Just days before we spoke, BuzzFeed co-founder and CEO Jonah Peretti agreed to sell the company, which was losing money and at risk of shutting down. Now there's a new lease on life — and new leadership. Jonah is taking on a new role as president of BuzzFeed AI, and Byron Allen will become CEO of BuzzFeed.  That's obviously a huge structural and organizational change, and a really big decision — prime Decoder bait if there ever was any. What are digital media companies doing to adapt and survive in an information landscape dominated by algorithmic social platforms? Links:  Byron Allen is buying BuzzFeed and becoming CEO | Variety BuzzFeed issues going concern warning, lacks liquidity | Wall Street Journal BuzzFeed News is shutting down | The Verge BuzzFeed sells Hot Ones studio in $82.5M deal | NBC News The unbearable lightness of BuzzFeed | The Verge I hate myself because I don't work for BuzzFeed (2015) | The Awl Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt; this episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Brendan Ballou is founder of the Public Integrity Project and author of the new book,  When Companies Run the Courts, about the rise of forced arbitration. Forced arbitration is similarly everywhere in modern life, and there have been some very high-profile cases these past few years highlighting how deeply unfair these clauses are to consumers. Brendan's book delves into how and why we got here — spoiler: we can blame Antonin Scalia for some of it — but also, most importantly, how we may be able to fight back in the future. Links:  When Companies Run the Courts | Hachette Private equity bought out your doctor and bankrupted Toys ‘R Us | Decoder Press freedom groups demand access to Paramount records | The Wrap Disney gives up on trying to use Disney+ to settle wrongful death suit | The Verge Samsung, corruption, and you (2017) | The Verge The surprising case for AI judges | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decode Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is longtime friend of the show Joanna Stern. You all know Joanna: she is the former senior personal technology columnist for The Wall Street Journal, a former Decoder guest host, one of my co-founders at The Verge, and also just one of my very closest friends. Joanna just left that lofty perch at the Journal to start her own media company called New Things, and she's starting with her new book about AI called I Am Not a Robot, which is out this week on May 12th. So we had Joanna on to talk about all of that, especially what she learned going all in on automation.  Links:  I Am Not a Robot | Harper Collins It's time. Meet my New Thing | Joanna Stern Why I left My prestigious job to make YouTube videos | Joanna Stern / YouTube Signing off from this column after 12 years. Here's what's changed in tech | WSJ I tried the robot that's coming to live with you. It's still par human | WSJ The people do not yearn for automation | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices