Podcasts about Cursor

The reception to our recent post on Code Reviews has been strong. Catch up!Amid a maelstrom of discussion on whether or not AI is killing SaaS, one of the top publicly listed SaaS companies in the world has just reported record revenues, clearing well over $1.1B in ARR for the first time with a 28% margin. As we comment on the pod, Aaron Levie is the rare public company CEO equally at home in both worlds of Silicon Valley and Wall Street/Main Street, by day helping 70% of the Fortune 500 with their Enterprise Advanced Suite, and yet by night is often found in the basements of early startups and tweeting viral insights about the future of agents.Now that both Cursor, Cloudflare, Perplexity, Anthropic and more have made Filesystems and Sandboxes and various forms of “Just Give the Agent a Box” cool (not just cool; it is now one of the single hottest areas in AI infrastructure growing 100% MoM), we find it a delightfully appropriate time to do the episode with the OG CEO who has been giving humans and computers Boxes since he was a college dropout pitching VCs at a Michael Arrington house party.Enjoy our special pod, with fan favorite returning guest/guest cohost Jeff Huber!Note: We didn't directly discuss the AI vs SaaS debate - Aaron has done many, many, many other podcasts on that, and you should read his definitive essay on it. Most commentators do not understand SaaS businesses because they have never scaled one themselves, and deeply reflected on what the true value proposition of SaaS is.We also discuss Your Company is a Filesystem:We also shoutout CTO Ben Kus' and the AI team, who talked about the technical architecture and will return for AIE WF 2026.Full Video EpisodeTimestamps* 00:00 Adapting Work for Agents* 01:29 Why Every Agent Needs a Box* 04:38 Agent Governance and Identity* 11:28 Why Coding Agents Took Off First* 21:42 Context Engineering and Search Limits* 31:29 Inside Agent Evals* 33:23 Industries and Datasets* 35:22 Building the Agent Team* 38:50 Read Write Agent Workflows* 41:54 Docs Graphs and Founder Mode* 55:38 Token FOMO Culture* 56:31 Production Function Secrets* 01:01:08 Film Roots to Box* 01:03:38 AI Future of Movies* 01:06:47 Media DevRel and EngineeringTranscriptAdapting Work for AgentsAaron Levie: Like you don't write code, you talk to an agent and it goes and does it for you, and you may be at best review it. That's even probably like, like largely not even what you're doing. What's happening is we are changing our work to make the agents effective. In that model, the agent didn't really adapt to how we work.We basically adapted to how the agent works. All of the economy has to go through that exact same evolution. Right now, it's a huge asset and an advantage for the teams that do it early and that are kinda wired into doing this ‘cause you'll see compounding returns. But that's just gonna take a while for most companies to actually go and get this deployed.swyx: Welcome to the Lane Space Pod. We're back in the chroma studio with uh, chroma, CEO, Jeff Hoover. Welcome returning guest now guest host.Aaron Levie: It's a pleasure. Wow. How'd you get upgraded to, uh, to that?swyx: Because he's like the perfect guy to be guest those for you.Aaron Levie: That makes sense actually, for We love context. We, we both really love context le we really do.We really do.swyx: Uh, and we're here with, uh, Aaron Levy. Welcome.Aaron Levie: Thank you. Good to, uh, good to be [00:01:00] here.swyx: Uh, yeah. So we've all met offline and like chatted a little bit, but like, it's always nice to get these things in person and conversation. Yeah. You just started off with so much energy. You're, you're super excited about agents.I loveAaron Levie: agents.swyx: Yeah. Open claw. Just got by, got bought by OpenAI. No, not bought, but you know, you know what I mean?Aaron Levie: Some, some, you know, acquihire. Executiveswyx: hire.Aaron Levie: Executive hire. Okay. Executive hire. Say,swyx: hey, that's my term. Okay. Um, what are you pounding the table on on agents? You have so many insightful tweets.Why Every Agent Needs a BoxAaron Levie: Well, the thing that, that we get super excited by that I think is probably, you know, should be relatively obvious is we've, we've built a platform to help enterprises manage their files and their, their corporate files and the permissions of who has access to those files and the sharing collaboration of those files.All of those files contain really, really important information for the enterprise. It might have your contracts, it might have your research materials, it might have marketing information, it might have your memos. All that data obviously has, you know, predominantly been used by humans. [00:02:00] But there's been one really interesting problem, which is that, you know, humans only really work with their files during an active engagement with them, and they kind of go away and you don't really see them for a long time.And all of a sudden, uh, with the power of AI and AI agents, all of that data becomes extremely relevant as this ongoing source of, of answers to new questions of data that will transform into, into something else that, that produces value in your organization. It, it contains the answer to the new employee that's onboarding, that needs to ramp up on a project.Um, it contains the answer to the right thing to sell a customer when you're having a conversation to them, with them contains the roadmap information that's gonna produce the next feature. So all that data. That previously we've been just sort of storing and, and you know, occasionally forgetting about, ‘cause we're only working on the new active stuff.All of that information becomes valuable to the enterprise and it's gonna become extremely valuable to end users because now they can have agents go find what they're looking for and produce new, new [00:03:00] value and new data on that information. And it's gonna become incredibly valuable to agents because agents can roam around and do a bunch of work and they're gonna need access to that data as well.And um, and you know, sometimes that will be an agent that is sort of working on behalf of, of, of you and, and effectively as you as and, and they are kind of accessing all of the same information that you have access to and, and operating as you in the system. And then sometimes there's gonna be agents that are just.Effectively autonomous and kind of run on their own and, and you're gonna collaborate and work with them kind of like you did another person. Open Claw being the most recent and maybe first real sort of, you know, kind of, you know, up updating everybody's, you know, views of this landscape version of, of what that could look like, which is, okay, I have an agent.It's on its own system, it's on its own computer, it has access to its own tools. I probably don't give it access to my entire life. I probably communicate with it like I would an assistant or a colleague and then it, it sort of has this sandbox environment. So all of that has massive implications for a platform that manage that [00:04:00] enterprise data.We think it's gonna just transform how we work with all of the enterprise content that we work with, and we just have to make sure we're building the right platform to support that.swyx: The sort of shorthand I put it is as people build agents, everybody's just realizing that every agent needs a box. Yes.And it's nice to be called box and just give everyone a box.Aaron Levie: Hey, I if I, you know, if we can make that go viral, uh, like I, I think that that terminology, I, that's theswyx: tagline. Every agentAaron Levie: needs a box. Every agent needs a box. If we can make that the headline of this, I'm fine with this. And that's the billboard I wanna like Yeah, exactly.Every agent needs a box. Um, I like it. Can we ship this? Like,swyx: okay, let's do it. Yeah.Aaron Levie: Uh, my work here is done and I got the value I needed outta this podcast Drinks.swyx: Yeah.Agent Governance and IdentityAaron Levie: But, but, um, but, but, you know, so the thing that we, we kind of think about is, um, is, you know, whether you think the number 10 x or a hundred x or whatever the number is, we're gonna have some order of magnitude more agents than people.That's inevitable. It has to happen. So then the question is, what is the infrastructure that's needed to make all those agents effective in the enterprise? Make sure that they are well governed. Make sure they're only doing [00:05:00] safe things on your information. Make sure that they're not getting exposed. The data that they shouldn't have access to.There's gonna be just incredibly spectacularly crazy security incidents that will happen with agents because you'll prompt, inject an agent and sort of find your way through the CRM system and pull out data that you shouldn't have access to. Oh, weJeff Huber: have God,Aaron Levie: right? I mean, that's just gonna happen all over the place, right?So, so then the thing is, is how do you make sure you have the right security, the permissions, the access controls, the data governance. Um, we actually don't yet exactly know in many cases how we're gonna regulate some of these agents, right? If you think about an agent in financial services, does it have the exact same financial sort of, uh, requirements that a human did?Or is it, is the risk fully on the human that was interacting or created the agent? All open questions, but no matter what, there's gonna need to be a layer that manages the, the data they have access to, the workflows that they're involved in, pulling up data from multiple systems. This is the new infrastructure opportunity in the era of agents.swyx: You have a piece on agent identities, [00:06:00] which I think was today, um, which I think a lot of breaking news, the security, security people are talking about, right? Like you basically, I, I always think of this as like, well you need the human you and then there you need the agent. YouAaron Levie: Yes.swyx: And uh, well, I don't know if it's that simple, but is box going to have an opinion on that or you're just gonna be like, well we're just the sort of the, the source layer.Yeah. Let's Okta of zero handle that.Aaron Levie: I think we're gonna have an opinion and we will work with generally wherever the contours of the market end up. Um, and the reason that we're gonna have an opinion more than other topics probably is because one of the biggest use cases for why your agent might need it, an identity is for file system access.So thus we have to kind of think about this pretty deeply. And I think, uh, unless you're like in our world thinking about this particular problem all day long, it might be, you know, like, why is this such a big deal? And the reason why it's a really big deal is because sometimes sort of say, well just give the agent an, an account on the system and it just treats, treat it like every other type of user on the system.The [00:07:00] problem is, is that I as Aaron don't really have any responsibility over anybody else's box account in our organization. I can't see the box account of any other employee that I work with. I am not liable for anything that they do. And they have, I have, I have, you know, strict privacy requirements on everything that they're able to, you know, that, that, that they work on.Agents don't have that, you know, don't have those properties. The person who creates the agent probably is gonna, for the foreseeable future, take on a lot of the liability of what that agent does. That agent doesn't deserve any privacy because, because it's, you know, it can't fully be autonomously operated and it doesn't have any legal, you know, kind of, you know, responsibility.So thus you can't just be like, oh, well I'll just create a bunch of accounts and then I'll, I'll kind of work with that agent and I'll talk to it occasionally. Like you need oversight of that. And so then the question is, how do you have a world where the agent, sometimes you have oversight of, but what if that agent goes and works with other people?That person over there is collaborating with the agent on something you shouldn't have [00:08:00] access to what they're doing. So we have all of these new boundaries that we're gonna have to figure out of, of, you know, it's really, really easy. So far we've been in, in easy mode. We've hit the easy button with ai, which is the agent just is you.And when you're in quad code and you're in cursor, and you're in Codex, you're just, the agent is you. You're offing into your services. It can do everything you can do. That's the easy mode. The hard mode is agents are kind of running on their own. People check in with them occasionally, they're doing things autonomously.How do you give them access to resources in the enterprise and not dramatically increased the security risk and the risk that you might expose the wrong thing to somebody. These are all the new problems that we have to get solved. I like the identity layer and, and identity vendors as being a solution to that, but we'll, we'll need some opinions as well because so many of the use cases are these collaborative file system use cases, which is how do I give it an agent, a subset of my data?Give it its own workspace as well. ‘cause it's gonna need to store off its own information that would be relevant for it. And how do I have the right oversight into that? [00:09:00]Jeff Huber: One thing, which, um, I think is kind interesting, think about is that you know, how humans work, right? Like I may not also just like give you access to the whole file.I might like sit next to you and like scroll to this like one part of the file and just show you that like one part and like, you know,swyx: partial file access.Jeff Huber: I'm just saying I think like our, like RA does seem to be dead, right? Like you wanna say something is dead uhhuh probably RA is dead. And uh, like the auth story to me seems like incredibly unsolved and unaddressed by like the existing state of like AI vendors.ButAaron Levie: yeah, I think, um, we're, I mean you're taking obviously really to level limit that we probably need to solve for. Yeah. And we built an access control system that was, was kind of like, you know, its own little world for, for a long time. And um, and the idea was this, it's a many to many collaboration system where I can give you any part of the file system.And it's a waterfall model. So if I give you higher up in the, in the, in the system, you get everything below. And that, that kind of created immense flexibility because I can kind of point you to any layer in the, in the tree, but then you're gonna get access to everything kind of below it. And that [00:10:00] mostly is, is working in this, in this world.But you do have to manage this issue, which is how do I create an agent that has access to some of my stuff and somebody else's stuff as well. Mm-hmm. And which parts do I get to look at as the creator of the agent? And, and these are just brand new problems? Yeah. Crazy. And humans, when there was a human there that was really easy to do.Like, like if the three of us were all sharing, there'd be a Venn diagram where we'd have an overlapping set of things we've shared, but then we'd have our own ways that we shared with each other. In an agent world, somebody needs to take responsibility for what that agent has access to and what they're working on.These are like the, some of the most probably, you know, boring problems for 98% of people on, on the internet, but they will be the problems that are the difference between can you actually have autonomous agents in an enterprise contextswyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: That are not leaking your data constantly.swyx: No. Like, I mean, you know, I run a very, very small company for my conference and like we already have data sensitivity issues.Yes. And some of my team members cannot see Yes. Uh, the others and like, I can't imagine what it's like to run a Fortune 500 and like, you have to [00:11:00] worry about this. I'm just kinda curious, like you, you talked to a lot like, like 70, 80% of your cus uh, of the Fortune 500, your customers.Aaron Levie: Yep. 67%. Just so we're being verySEswyx: precise.So Yeah. I'm notAaron Levie: Okay. Okay.swyx: Something I'm rounding up. Yes. Round up. I'm projecting to, forAaron Levie: the government.swyx: I'm projecting to the end of the year.Aaron Levie: Okay.swyx: There you go.Aaron Levie: You do make it sound like, like we, we, well we've gotta be on this. Like we're, we're taking way too long to get to 80%. Well,swyx: no, I mean, so like. How are they approaching it?Right? Because you're, you don't have a, you don't have a final answer yet.Why Coding Agents Took Off FirstAaron Levie: Well, okay, so, so this is actually, this is the stark reality that like, unfortunately is the kinda like pouring the water on the party a little bit.swyx: Yes.Aaron Levie: We all in Silicon Valley are like, have the absolute best conditions possible for AI ever.And I think we all saw the dke, you know, kind of Dario podcast and this idea of AI coding. Why is that taken off? And, and we're not yet fully seeing it everywhere else. Well, look, if you just like enumerated the list of properties that AI coding has and then compared it to other [00:12:00] knowledge work, let's just, let's just go through a few of them.Generally speaking, you bring on a new engineer, they have access to a large swath of the code base. Like, there's like very, like you, just, like new engineer comes on, they can just go and find the, the, the stuff that they, they need to work with. It's a fully text in text out. Medium. It's only, it's just gonna be text at the end of the day.So it's like really great from a, from just a, uh, you know, kinda what the agent can work with. Obviously the models are super trained on that dataset. The labs themselves have a really strong, kind of self-reinforcing positive flywheel of why they need to do, you know, agent coding deeply. So then you get just better tooling, better services.The actual developers of the AI are daily users of the, of the thing that they're we're working on versus like the, you know, probably there's only like seven Claude Cowork legal plugin users at Anthropic any given day, but there's like a couple thousand Claude code and you know, users every single day.So just like, think about which one are they getting more feedback on. All day long. So you just go through this list. You have a, you know, everybody who's a [00:13:00] developer by definition is technical so they can go install the latest thing. We're all generally online, or at least, you know, kinda the weird ones are, and we're all talking to each other, sharing best practices, like that's like already eight differences.Versus the rest of the economy. Every other part of the economy has like, like six to seven headwinds relative to that list. You go into a company, you're a banker in financial services, you have access to like a, a tiny little subset of the total data that's gonna be relevant to do your job. And you're have to start to go and talk to a bunch of people to get the right data to do your job because Sally didn't add you to that deal room, you know, folder.And that that, you know, the information is actually in a completely different organization that you now have to go in and, and sort of run into. And it's like you have this endless list of access controls and security. As, as you talked about, you have a medium, which is not, it's not just text, right? You have, you have a zoom call that, that you're getting all of the requirements from the customer.You have a lot of in-person conversations and you're doing in-person sales and like how do you ever [00:14:00] digitize all of that information? Um, you know, I think a lot of people got upset with this idea that the code base has all the context, um, that I don't know if you follow, you know, did you follow some of that conversation that that went viral?Is like, you know, it's not that simple that, that the code base doesn't have all the knowledge, but like it's a lot, you're a lot better off than you are with other areas of knowledge work. Like you, we like, we like have documentation practices, you write specifications. Those things don't exist for like 80% of work that happens in the enterprise.That's the divide that we have, which is, which is AI coding has, has just fully, you know, where we've reached escape velocity of how powerful this stuff is, and then we're gonna have to find a way to bring that same energy and momentum, but to all these other areas of knowledge work. Where the tools aren't there, the data's not set up to be there.The access controls don't make it that easy. The context engineering is an incredibly hard problem because again, you have access control challenges, you have different data formats. You have end users that are gonna need to kind of be kind of trained through this as opposed to their adopting [00:15:00] these tools in their free time.That's where the Fortune 500 is. And so we, I think, you know, have to be prepared as an industry where we are gonna be on a multi-year march to, to be able to bring agents to the enterprise for these workflows. And I think probably the, the thing that we've learned most in coding that, that the rest of the world is not yet, I think ready for, I mean, we're, they'll, they'll have to be ready for it because it's just gonna inevitably happen is I think in coding.What, what's interesting is if you think about the practice of coding today versus two years ago. It's probably the most changed workflow in maybe the history of time from the amount of time it's changed, right? Yeah. Like, like has any, has any workflow in the entire economy changed that quickly in terms of the amount of change?I just, you know, at least in any knowledge worker workflow, there's like very rarely been an event where one piece of technology and work practice has so fundamentally, you know, changed, changed what you do. Like you don't write code, you talk to an agent and it goes and [00:16:00] does it for you, and you may be at best review it.And even that's even probably like, like largely not even what you're doing. What's happening is we are changing our work to make the agents effective. In that model, the agent didn't really adapt to how we work. We basically adapted to how the agent works. Mm-hmm. All of the economy has to go through that exact same evolution.The rest of the economy is gonna have to update its workflows to make agents effective. And to give agents the context that they need and to actually figure out what kind of prompting works and to figure out how do you ensure that the agent has the right access to information to be able to execute on its work.I, you know, this is not the panacea that people were hoping for, of the agent drops in, just automates your life. Like you have to basically re-engineer your workflow to get the most out of agents and, uh, and that, that's just gonna take, you know, multiple years across the economy. Right now it's a huge asset and an advantage for the teams that do it early and that are kinda wired into doing this.‘cause [00:17:00] you'll see compounding returns, but that's just gonna take a while for most companies to actually go and get this deployed.swyx: I love, I love pushing back. I think that. That is what a lot of technology consultants love to hear this sort of thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. First to, to embrace the ai. Yes. To get to the promised land, you must pay me so much money to a hundred percent to adopt the prescribed way of, uh, conforming to the agents.Yes. And I worry that you will be eclipsed by someone else who says, no, come as you are.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: And we'll meet you where you are.Aaron Levie: And, and, and and what was the thing that went viral a week ago? OpenAI probably, uh, is hiring F Dees. Yeah. Uh, to go into the enterprise. Yeah. Yeah. And then philanthropic is embedded at Goldman Sachs.Yeah. So if the labs are having to do this, if, if the labs have decided that they need to hire FDE and professional services, then I think that's a pretty clear indication that this, there's no easy mode of workflow transformation. Yeah. Yeah. So, so to your point, I think actually this is a market opportunity for, you know, new professional services and consulting [00:18:00] firms that are like Agent Build and they, and they kind of, you know, go into organizations and they figure out how to re-engineer your workflows to make them more agent ready and get your data into the right format and, you know, reconstruct your business process.So you're, you're not doing most of the work. You're telling agents how to do the work and then you're reviewing it. But I haven't seen the thing that can just drop in and, and kinda let you not go through those changes.swyx: I don't know how that kind of sales pitch goes over. Yeah. You know, you're, you're saying things like, well, in my sort of nice beautiful walled garden, here's, there's, uh, because here's this, here's this beautiful box account that has everything.Yes. And I'm like, well, most, most real life is extremely messy. Sure. And like, poorly named and there duplicate this outdated s**tAaron Levie: a hundred percent. And so No, no, a hundred percent. And so this is actually No. So, so this is, I mean, we agree that, that getting to the beautiful garden is gonna be tough.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: There's also the other end of the spectrum where I, I just like, it's a technical impossibility to solve. The agent is, is truly cannot get enough context to make the right decision in, in the, in the incredibly messy land. Like there's [00:19:00] no a GI that will solve that. So, so we're gonna have to kind of land in somewhere in between, which is like we all collectively get better at.Documentation practices and, and having authoritative relatively up-to-date information and putting it in the right place like agents will, will certainly cause us to be much better organized around how we work with our information, simply because the severity of the agent pulling the wrong data will be too high and the productivity gain of that you'll miss out on by not doing this will be too high as well, that you, that your competition will just do it and they'll just have higher velocity.So, uh, and, and we, we see this a lot firsthand. So we, we build a series of agents internally that they can kind of have access to your full box account and go off and you give it a task and it can go find whatever information you're looking for and work with. And, you know, thank God for the model progress, but like, if, if you gave that task to an agent.Nine months ago, you're just gonna get lots of bogus answers because it's gonna, it's gonna say, Hey, here's, here are fi [00:20:00] five, you know, documents that all kind of smell like the right thing. And I'm gonna, but I, but you're, you're putting me on the clock. ‘cause my assistant prompt says like, you know, be pretty smart, but also try and respond to the user and it's gonna respond.And it's like, ah, it got the wrong document. And then you do that once or twice as a knowledge worker and you're just neverswyx: again,Aaron Levie: never again. You're just like done with the system.swyx: Yeah. It doesn't work.Aaron Levie: It doesn't work. And so, you know, Opus four six and Gemini three one Pro and you know, whatever the latest five 3G BT will be, like, those things are getting better and better and it's using better judgment.And this sort of like the, all of these updates to the agentic tool and search systems are, are, we're seeing, we're seeing very real progress where the agent. Kind of can, can almost smell some things a little bit fishy when it's getting, you know, we, we have this process where we, we have it go fan out, do a bunch of searches, pull up a bunch of data, and then it has to sort of do its own ranking of, you know, what are the right documents that, that it should be working with.And again, like, you know, the intelligence level of a model six months ago, [00:21:00] it'd be just throwing a dart at like, I'm just, I'm gonna grab these seven files and I, I pray, I hope that that's the right answer. And something like an opus first four five, and now four six is like, oh, it's like, no, that one doesn't seem right relative to this question because I'm seeing some signal that is making that, you know, that's contradicting the document where it would normally be in the tree and who should have access.Like it's doing all of that kind of work for you. But like, it still doesn't work if you just have a total wasteland of data. Like, it's just not, it's just not possible. Partly ‘cause a human wouldn't even be able to do it. So basically if a, if a really, really smart human. Could not do that task in five or 10 minutes for a search retrieval type task.Look, you know, your agent's not gonna be able to do it any better. You see this all day long. SoContext Engineering and Search Limitsswyx: this touches on a thing that just passionate about it was just context engineering. I, I'm just gonna let you ramble or riff on, on context engineering. If, if, if there's anything like he, he did really good work on context fraud, which has really taken over as like the term that people use and the referenceAaron Levie: a hundred percent.We, we all we think about is, is the context rob problem. [00:22:00]Jeff Huber: Yeah, there's certainly a lot of like ranking considerations. Gentech surgery think is incredibly promising. Um, yeah, I was trying to generate a question though. I think I have a question right now. Swyx.Aaron Levie: Yeah, no, but like, like I think there was this moment, um, you know, like, I don't know, two years ago before, before we knew like where the, the gotchas were gonna be in ai and I think someone was like, was like, well, infinite context windows will just solve all of these problems and ‘cause you'll just, you'll just give the context window like all the data and.It's just like, okay, I mean, maybe in 2035, like this is a viable solution. First of all, it, it would just, it would just simply cost too much. Like we just can't give the model like the 5,000 documents that might be relevant and it's gonna read them all. And I've seen enough to, to start believing in crazy stuff.So like, I'm willing to just say, sure. Like in, in 10 years from now,swyx: never say, never, never.Aaron Levie: In, in 10 years from now, we'll have infinite context windows at, at a thousandth of the price of today. Like, let's just like believe that that's possible, but Right. We're in reality today. So today we have a context engineering [00:23:00] problem, which is, I got, I got, you know, 200,000 tokens that I can work with, or prob, I don't even know what the latest graph is before, like massive degradation.16. Okay. I have 60,000 tokens that I get to work with where I'm gonna get accurate information. That's not a lot of tokens for a corpus of 10 million documents that a knowledge worker might have across all of the teams and all the projects and all the people they work with. I have, I have 10 million documents.Which, you know, maybe is times five pages per document or something like that. I'm at 50 million pages of information and I have 60,000 tokens. Like, holy s**t. Yeah. This is like, how do I bridge the 50 million pages of information with, you know, the couple hundred that I get to work with in that, in that token window.Yeah. This is like, this is like such an interesting problem and that's why actually so much work is actually like, just like search systems and the databases and that layer has to just get so locked in, but models getting better and importantly [00:24:00] knowing when they've done a search, they found the wrong thing, they go back, they check their work, they, they find a way to balance sort of appeasing the user versus double checking.We have this one, we have this one test case where we ask the agent to go find. 10 pieces of information.swyx: Is this the complex work eval?Aaron Levie: Uh, this is actually not in the eval. This is, this is sort of just like we have a bunch of different, we have a bunch of internal benchmark kind of scenarios. Every time we, we update our agent, we have one, which is, I ask it to find all of our office addresses, and I give it the list of 10 offices that we have.And there's not one document that has this, maybe there should be, that would be a great example of the kind of thing that like maybe over time companies start to, you know, have these sort of like, what are the canonical, you know, kind of key areas of knowledge that we need to have. We don't seem to have this one document that says, here are all of our offices.We have a bunch of documents that have like, here's the New York office and whatever. So you task this agent and you, you get, you say, I need the addresses for these 10 offices. Okay. And by the way, if you do this on any, you know, [00:25:00] public chat model, the same outcome is gonna happen. But for a different kind of query, you give it, you say, I need these 10 addresses.How many times should the agent go and do its search before it decides whether or not, there's just no answer to this question. Often, and especially the, the, let's say lower tier models, it'll come back and it'll give you six of the 10 addresses. And it'll, and I'll just say I couldn't find the otherswyx: four.It, it doesn't know what It doesn't know. ItAaron Levie: doesn't know what It doesn't know. Yeah. So the model is just like, like when should it stop? When should it stop doing? Like should it, should it do that task for literally an hour and just keep cranking through? Maybe I actually made up an office location and it doesn't know that I made it up and I didn't even know that I made it up.Like, should it just keep, re should it read every single file in your entire box account until it, until it should exhaust every single piece of information.swyx: Expensive.Aaron Levie: These are the new problems that we have. So, you know, something like, let's say a new opus model is sort of like, okay, I'm gonna try these types of queries.I didn't get exactly what I wanted. I'm gonna try again. I'm gonna, at [00:26:00] some point I'm gonna stop searching. ‘cause I've determined that that no amount of searching is gonna solve this problem. I'm just not able to do it. And that judgment is like a really new thing that the model needs to be able to have.It's like, when should it give up on a task? ‘cause, ‘cause you just don't, it's a can't find the thing. That's the real world of knowledge, work problems. And this is the stuff that the coding agents don't have to deal with. Because they, it just doesn't like, like you're not usually asking it about, you're, you're always creating net new information coming right outta the model for the most part.Obviously it has to know about your code base and your specs and your documentation, but, but when you deploy an agent on all of your data that now you have all of these new problems that you're dealing withJeff Huber: our, uh, follow follow-up research to context ride is actually on a genetic search. Ah. Um, and we've like right, sort of stress tested like frontier models and their ability to search.Um, and they're not actually that good at searching. Right. Uh, so you're sort of highlighting this like explore, exploit.swyx: You're just say, Debbie, Donna say everything doesn't work. Like,Aaron Levie: well,Jeff Huber: somebody has to be,Aaron Levie: um, can I just throw out one more thing? Yeah. That is different from coding and, and the rest [00:27:00] of the knowledge work that I, I failed to mention.So one other kind of key point is, is that, you know, at the end of the day. Whether you believe we're in a slop apocalypse or, or whatever. At the end of the day, if you, if you build a working product at the end of, if you, if you've built a working solution that is ultimately what the customer is paying for, like whether I have a lot of slop, a little slop or whatever, I'm sure there's lots of code bases we could go into in enterprise software companies where it's like just crazy slop that humans did over a 20 year period, but the end customer just gets this little interface.They can, they can type into it, it does its thing. Knowledge work, uh, doesn't have that property. If I have an AI model, go generate a contract and I generate a contract 20 times and, you know, all 20 times it's just 3% different and like that I, that, that kind of lop introduces all new kinds of risk for my organization that the code version of that LOP didn't, didn't introduce.These are, and so like, so how do you constrain these models to just the part that you want [00:28:00] them to work on and just do the thing that you want them to do? And, and, you know, in engineering, we don't, you can't be disbarred as an engineer, but you could be disbarred as a lawyer. Like you can do the wrong medical thing In healthcare, you, there's no, there's no equivalent to that of engineering.Like, doswyx: you want there to be, because I've considered softwareJeff Huber: engineer. What's that? Civil engineering there is, right? NotAaron Levie: software civil engineer. Sure. Oh yeah, for sure. But like in any of our companies, you like, you know, you'll be forgiven if you took down the site and, and we, we will do a rollback and you'll, you'll be in a meeting, but you have not been disbarred as an engineer.We don't, we don't change your, you know, your computer science, uh, blameJeff Huber: degree, this postmortem.Aaron Levie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, so, uh, now maybe we collectively as an industry need to figure out like, what are you liable for? Not legally, but like in a, in a management sense, uh, of these agents. All sorts of interesting problems that, that, that, uh, that have to come out.But in knowledge work, that's the real hostile environments that we're operating in. Hmm.swyx: I do think like, uh, a lot of the last year's, 2025 story was the rise of coding agents and I think [00:29:00] 2026 story is definitely knowledge work agents. Yes. A hundredAaron Levie: percent.swyx: Right. Like that would, and I think open claw core work are just the beginning.Yes. Like it's, the next one's gonna just gonna be absolute craziness.Aaron Levie: It it is. And, and, uh, and it's gonna be, I mean, again, like this is gonna be this, this wave where we, we are gonna try and bring as many of the practices from coding because that, that will clearly be the forefront, which is tell an agent to go do something and has an access to a set of resources.You need to be responsible for reviewing it at the end of the process. That to me is the, is the kind of template that I just think goes across knowledge, work and odd. Cowork is a great example. Open Closet's a great example. You can kind of, sort of see what Codex could become over time. These are some, some really interesting kind of platforms that are emerging.swyx: Okay. Um, I wanted to, we touched on evals a little bit. You had, you had the report that you're gonna go bring up and then I was gonna go into like, uh, boxes, evals, but uh, go ahead. Talk about your genetic search thing.Jeff Huber: Yeah. Mostly I think kinda a few of the insights. It's like number one frontier model is not good at search.Humans have this [00:30:00] natural explore, exploit trade off where we kinda understand like when to stop doing something. Also, humans are pretty good at like forgetting actually, and like pruning their own context, whereas agents are not, and actually an agent in their kind of context history, if they knew something was bad and they even, you could see in the trace the reason you trace, Hey, that probably wasn't a good idea.If it's still in the trace, still in the context, they'll still do it again. Uhhuh. Uh, and so like, I think pruning is also gonna be like, really, it's already becoming a thing, right? But like, letting self prune the con windowsswyx: be a big deal. Yeah. So, so don't leave the mistake. Don't leave the mistake in there.Cut out the mistake but tell it that you made a mistake in the past and so it doesn't repeat it.Jeff Huber: Yeah. But like cut it out so it doesn't get like distracted by it again. ‘cause really, you know, what is so, so it will repeat its mistake just because it's been, it's inswyx: theJeff Huber: context. It'sAaron Levie: in the context so much.That's a few shot example. Even if it, yeah.Jeff Huber: It's like oh thisAaron Levie: is a great thing to go try even ifJeff Huber: it didn't work.Aaron Levie: Yeah,Jeff Huber: exactly.Aaron Levie: SoJeff Huber: there's like a bunch of stuff there. JustAaron Levie: Groundhogs Day inside these models. Yeah. I'm gonna go keep doing the same wrongJeff Huber: thing. Covering sense. I feel like, you know, some creator analogy you're trying like fit a manifold in latent space, which kind is doing break program synthesis, which is kinda one we think about we're doing right.Like, you know, certain [00:31:00] facts might be like sort of overly pitting it. There are certain, you know, sec sectors of latent space and so like plug clean space. Yeah. And, uh, andswyx: so we have a bell, our editor as a bell every time you say that. SoJeff Huber: you have, you have to like remove those, likeswyx: you shoulda a gong like TPN or something.IfJeff Huber: we gong, you either remove those links to like kinda give it the freedom, kind of do what you need to do. So, but yeah. We'll, we'll release more soon. That'sAaron Levie: awesome.Jeff Huber: That'll, that'll be cool.swyx: We're a cerebral podcast that people listen to us and, and sort of think really deep. So yeah, we try to keep it subtle.Okay. We try to keep it.Aaron Levie: Okay, fine.Inside Agent Evalsswyx: Um, you, you guys do, you guys do have EVs, you talked about your, your office thing, but, uh, you've been also promoting APEX agents and complex work. Uh, yeah, whatever you, wherever you wanna take this just Yeah. How youAaron Levie: Apex is, is obviously me, core's, uh, uh, kind of, um, agent eval.We, we supported that by sort of. Opening up some data for them around how we kind of see these, um, data workspaces in, in the, you know, kind of regular economy. So how do lawyers have a workspace? How do investment bankers have a workspace? What kind of data goes into those? And so we, [00:32:00] we partner with them on their, their apex eval.Our own, um, eval is, it's actually relatively straightforward. We have a, a set of, of documents in a, in a range of industries. We give the agent previously did this as a one shot test of just purely the model. And then we just realized we, we need to, based on where everything's going, it's just gotta be more agentic.So now it's a bit more of a test of both our harness and the model. And we have a rubric of a set of things that has to get right and we score it. Um, and you're just seeing, you know, these incredible jumps in almost every single model in its own family of, you know, opus four, um, you know, sonnet four six versus sonnet four five.swyx: Yeah. We have this up on screen.Aaron Levie: Okay, cool. So some, you're seeing it somewhere like. I, I forget the to, it was like 15 point jump, I think on the main, on the overall,swyx: yes.Aaron Levie: And it's just like, you know, these incredible leaps that, that are starting to happen. Um,swyx: and OP doesn't know any, like any, it's completely held out from op.Aaron Levie: This is not in any, there's no public data which has, you know, Ben benefits and this is just a private eval that we [00:33:00] do, and then we just happen to show it to, to the world. Hmm. So you can't, you can't train against it. And I think it's just as representative of. It's obviously reasoning capabilities, what it's doing at, at, you know, kind of test time, compute capabilities, thinking levels, all like the context rot issues.So many interesting, you know, kind of, uh, uh, capabilities that are, that are now improvingswyx: one sector that you have. That's interesting.Industries and Datasetsswyx: Uh, people are roughly familiar with healthcare and legal, but you have public sector in there.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: Uh, what's that? Like, what, what, what is that?Aaron Levie: Yeah, and, and we actually test against, I dunno, maybe 10 industries.We, we end up usually just cutting a few that we think have interesting gains. All extras, won a lot of like government type documents. Um,swyx: what is that? What is it? Government type documents?Aaron Levie: Government filings. Like a taxswyx: return, likeAaron Levie: a probably not tax returns. It would be more of what would go the government be using, uh, as data.So, okay. Um, so think about research that, that type of, of, of data sets. And then we have financial services for things like data rooms and what would be in an investment prospectus. Uhhuh,swyx: that one you can dog food.Aaron Levie: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yes. Yes. [00:34:00] So, uh, so we, we run the models, um, in now, you know, more of an agent mode, but, but still with, with kinda limited capacity and just try and see like on a, like, for like basis, what are the improvements?And, and again, we just continue to be blown away by. How, how good these models are getting.swyx: Yeah, I mean, I think every serious AI company needs something like that where like, well, this is the work we do. Here's our company eval. Yeah. And if you don't have it, well, you're not a serious AI company.Aaron Levie: There's two dimensions, right?So there's, there's like, how are the models improving? And so which models should you either recommend a customer use, which one should you adopt? But then every single day, we're making changes to our agents. And you need to knowswyx: if you regressed,Aaron Levie: if you know. Yeah. You know, I've been fully convinced that the whole agent observability and eval space is gonna be a massive space.Um, super excited for what Braintrust is doing, excited for, you know, Lang Smith, all the things. And I think what you're going to, I mean, this is like every enter like literally every enterprise right now. It's like the AI companies are the customers of these tools. Every enterprise will have this. Yeah, you'll just [00:35:00] have to have an eval.Of all of your work and like, we'll, you'll have an eval of your RFP generation, you'll have an eval of your sales material creation. You'll have an eval of your, uh, invoice processing. And, and as you, you know, buy or use new agentic systems, you are gonna need to know like, what's the quality of your, of your pipeline.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: Um, so huge, huge market with agent evals.swyx: Yeah.Building the Agent Teamswyx: And, and you know, I'm gonna shout out your, your team a bit, uh, your CTO, Ben, uh, did a great talk with us last year. Awesome. And he's gonna come back again. Oh, cool. For World's Fair.Aaron Levie: Yep.swyx: Just talk about your team, like brag a little bit. I think I, I think people take these eval numbers in pretty charts for granted, but No, there, I mean, there's, there's lots of really smart people at work during all this.Aaron Levie: Biggest shout out, uh, is we have a, we have a couple folks at Dya, uh, Sidarth, uh, that, that kind of run this. They're like a, you know, kind of tag tag team duo on our evals, Ben, our CTO, heavily involved Yasha, head of ai, uh, you know, a bunch of folks. And, um, evals is one part of the story. And then just like the full, you know, kind of AI.An agent team [00:36:00] is, uh, is a, is a pretty, you know, is core to this whole effort. So there's probably, I don't know, like maybe a few dozen people that are like the epicenter. And then you just have like layers and layers of, of kind of concentric circles of okay, then there's a search team that supports them and an infrastructure team that supports them.And it's starting to ripple through the entire company. But there's that kind of core agent team, um, that's a pretty, pretty close, uh, close knit group.swyx: The search team is separate from the infra team.Aaron Levie: I mean, we have like every, every layer of the stack we have to kind of do, except for just pure public cloud.Um, but um, you know, we, we store, I don't even know what our public numbers are in, you know, but like, you can just think about it as like a lot of data is, is stored in box. And so we have, and you have every layer of the, of the stack of, you know, how do you manage the data, the file system, the metadata system, the search system, just all of those components.And then they all are having to understand that now you've got this new customer. Which is the agent, and they've been building for two types of customers in the past. They've been building for users and they've been building for like applications. [00:37:00] And now you've got this new agent user, and it comes in with a difference of it, of property sometimes, like, hey, maybe sometimes we should do embeddings, an embedding based, you know, kind of search versus, you know, your, your typical semantic search.Like, it's just like you have to build the, the capabilities to support all of this. And we're testing stuff, throwing things away, something doesn't work and, and not relevant. It's like just, you know, total chaos. But all of those teams are supporting the agent team that is kind of coming up with its requirements of what, what do we need?swyx: Yeah. No, uh, we just came from, uh, fireside chat where you did, and you, you talked about how you're doing this. It's, it's kind of like an internal startup. Yeah. Within the broader company. The broader company's like 3000 people. Yeah. But you know, there's, there's a, this is a core team of like, well, here's the innovation center.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: And like that every company kind of is run this way.Aaron Levie: Yeah. I wanna be sensitive. I don't call it the innovation center. Yeah. Only because I think everybody has to do innovation. Um, there, there's a part of the, the, the company that is, is sort of do or die for the agent wave.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: And it only happens to be more of my focus simply because it's existential that [00:38:00] we get it right.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: All of the supporting systems are necessary. All of the surrounding adjacent capabilities are necessary. Like the only reason we get to be a platform where you'd run an agent is because we have a security feature or a compliance feature, or a governance feature that, that some team is working on.But that's not gonna be the make or break of, of whether we get agents right. Like that already exists and we need to keep innovating there. I don't know what the right, exact precise number is, but it's not a thousand people and it's not 10 people. There's a number of people that are like the, the kind of like, you know, startup within the company that are the make or break on everything related to AI agents, you know, leveraging our platform and letting you work with your data.And that's where I spend a lot of my time, and Ben and Yosh and Diego and Teri, you know, these are just, you know, people that, that, you know, kind of across the team. Are working.swyx: Yeah. Amazing.Read Write Agent WorkflowsJeff Huber: How do you, how do you think about, I mean, you talked a lot about like kinda read workflows over your box data. Yep.Right. You know, gen search questions, queries, et cetera. But like, what about like, write or like authoring workflows?Aaron Levie: Yes. I've [00:39:00] already probably revealed too much actually now that I think about it. So, um, I've talked about whatever,Jeff Huber: whatever you can.Aaron Levie: Okay. It's just us. It's just us. Yeah. Okay. Of course, of course.So I, I guess I would just, uh, I'll make it a little bit conceptual, uh, because again, I've already, I've already said things that are not even ga but, but we've, we've kinda like danced around it publicly, so I, yeah, yeah. Okay. Just like, hopefully nobody watches this, um, episode. No.swyx: It's tidbits for the Heidi engaged to go figure out like what exactly, um, you know, is, is your sort of line of thinking.Sure. They can connect the dots.Aaron Levie: Yeah. So, so I would say that, that, uh, we, you know, as a, as a place where you have your enterprise content, there's a use case where I want to, you know, have an agent read that data and answer questions for me. And then there's a use case where I want the agent to create something.And use the file system to create something or store off data that it's working on, or be able to have, you know, various files that it's writing to about the work it's doing. So we do see it as a total read write. The harder problem has so far been the read only because, because again, you have that kind of like 10 [00:40:00] million to one ratio problem, whereas rights are a lot of, that's just gonna come from the model and, and we just like, we'll just put it in the file system and kinda use it.So it's a little bit of a technically easier problem, but the only part that's like, not necessarily technically hard, it is just like it's not yet perfected in the state of the ecosystem is, you know, building a beautiful PowerPoint presentation. It's still a hard problem for these models. Like, like we still, you know, like, like these formats are just, we're not built for.They'reswyx: working on it.Aaron Levie: They're, they're working on it. Everybody's working on it.swyx: Every launch is like, well, we do PowerPoint now.Aaron Levie: We're getting, yeah, getting a lot, getting a lot of better each time. But then you'll do this thing where you'll ask the update one slide and all of a sudden, like the fonts will be just like a little bit different, you know, on two of the slides, or it moved, you know, some shape over to the left a little bit.And again, these are the kind of things that, like in code, obviously you could really care about if you really care about, you know, how beautiful is the code, but at the end, user doesn't notice all those problems and file creation, the end user instantly sees it. You're [00:41:00] like, ah, like paragraph three, like, you literally just changed the font on me.Like it's a totally different font and like midway through the document. Mm-hmm. Those are the kind of things that you run into a lot of in the, in the content creation side. So, mm-hmm. We are gonna have native agents. That do all of those things, they'll be powered by the leading kind of models and labs.But the thing that I think is, is probably gonna be a much bigger idea over time is any agent on any system, again, using Box as a file system for its work, and in that kind of scenario, we don't necessarily care what it's putting in the file system. It could put its memory files, it could put its, you know, specification, you know, documents.It could put, you know, whatever its markdown files are, or it could, you know, generate PDFs. It's just like, it's a workspace that is, is sort of sandboxed off for its work. People can collaborate into it, it can share with other people. And, and so we, we were thinking a lot about what's the right, you know, kind of way to, to deliver that at scale.Docs Graphs and Founder Modeswyx: I wanted to come into sort of the sort of AI transformation or AI sort of, uh, operations things. [00:42:00] Um, one of the tweets that you, that you wanted to talk about, this is just me going through your tweets, by the way. Oh, okay. I mean, like, this is, you readAaron Levie: one by one,swyx: you're the, you're the easiest guest to prep for because you, you already have like, this is the, this is what I'm interested in.I'm like, okay, well, areAaron Levie: we gonna get to like, like February, January or something? Where are we in the, in the timelines? How far back are we going?swyx: Can you, can you describe boxes? A set of skills? Right? Like that, that's like, that's like one of the extremes of like, well if you, you just turn everything into a markdown file.Yeah. Then your agent can run your company. Uh, like you just have to write, find the right sequence of words toAaron Levie: Yes.swyx: To do it.Aaron Levie: Sorry, isthatswyx: the question? So I think the question is like, what if we documented everything? Yes. The way that you exactly said like,Aaron Levie: yes.swyx: Um, let's get all the Fortune five hundreds, uh, prepared for agents.Yes. And like, you know, everything's in golden and, and nicely filed away and everything. Yes. What's missing? Like, what's left, right? LikeAaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: You've, you've run your company for a decade. LikeAaron Levie: Yeah. I think the challenge is that, that that information changes a week later. And because something happened in the market for that [00:43:00] customer, or us as a company that now has to go get updated, and so these systems are living and breathing and they have to experience reality and updates to reality, which right now is probably gonna be humans, you know, kinda giving those, giving them the updates.And, you know, there is this piece about context graphs as as, uh, that kinda went very viral. Yeah. And I, I, I was like a, i, I, I thought it was super provocative. I agreed with many parts of it. I disagree with a few parts around. You know, it's not gonna be as easy as as just if we just had the agent traces, then we can finally do that work because there's just like, there's so much more other stuff that that's happening that, that we haven't been able to capture and digitize.And I think they actually represented that in the piece to be clear. But like there's just a lot of work, you know, that that has to, you just can't have only skills files, you know, for your company because it's just gonna be like, there's gonna be a lot of other stuff that happens. Yeah. Change over time.Yeah. Most companies are practically apprenticeships.swyx: Most companies are practically apprenticeships. LikeJeff Huber: every new employee who joins the team, [00:44:00] like you span one to three months. Like ramping them up.Aaron Levie: Yes. AllJeff Huber: that tat knowledgeAaron Levie: isJeff Huber: not written down.Aaron Levie: Yes.Jeff Huber: But like, it would have to be if you wanted to like give it to an Asian.Right. And so like that seems to me like to beAaron Levie: one is I think you're gonna see again a premium on companies that can document this. Mm-hmm. Much. There'll be a huge premium on that because, because you know, can you shorten that three month ramp cycle to a two week ramp cycle? That's an instant productivity gain.Can you re dramatically reduce rework in the organization because you've documented where all the stuff is and where the answers are. Can you make your average employee as good as your 90th percentile employee because you've captured the knowledge that's sort of in the heads of, of those top employees and make that available.So like you can see some very clear productivity benefits. Mm-hmm. If you had a company culture of making sure you know your information was captured, digitized, put in a format that was agent ready and then made available to agents to work with, and then you just, again, have this reality of like add a 10,000 person [00:45:00] company.Mapping that to the, you know, access structure of the company is just a hard problem. Is like, is like, yeah, well, you just, not every piece of information that's digitized can be shared to everybody. And so now you have to organize that in a way that actually works. There was a pretty good piece, um, this, this, uh, this piece called your company as a file is a file system.I, did you see that one?swyx: Nope.Aaron Levie: Uh, yes. You saw it. Yeah. And, and, uh, I actually be curious your thoughts on it. Um, like, like an interesting kind of like, we, we agree with it because, because that's how we see the world and, uh,swyx: okay. We, we have it up on screen. Oh,Aaron Levie: okay. Yeah. But, but it's all about basically like, you know, we've already, we, we, we already organized in this kind of like, you know, permission structure way.Uh, and, and these are the kind of, you know, natural ways that, that agents can now work with data. So it's kind of like this, this, you know, kind of interesting metaphor, but I do think companies will have to start to think about how they start to digitize more, more of that data. What was your take?Jeff Huber: Yeah, I mean, like the company's probably like an acid compliant file system.Aaron Levie: Uh,Jeff Huber: yeah. Which I'm guessing boxes, right? So, yeah. Yes.swyx: Yeah. [00:46:00]Jeff Huber: Which you have a great piece on, but,swyx: uh, yeah. Well, uh, I, I, my, my, my direction is a little bit like, I wanna rewind a little bit to the graph word you said that there, that's a magic trigger word for us. I always ask what's your take on knowledge graphs?Yeah. Uh, ‘cause every, especially at every data database person, I just wanna see what they think. There's been knowledge graphs, hype cycles, and you've seen it all. So.Aaron Levie: Hmm. I actually am not the expert in knowledge graphs, so, so that you might need toswyx: research, you don't need to be an expert. Yeah. I think it's just like, well, how, how seriously do people take it?Yeah. Like, is is, is there a lot of potential in the, in the HOVI?Aaron Levie: Uh, well, can I, can I, uh, understand first if it's, um, is this a loaded question in the sense of are you super pro, super con, super anti medium? Iswyx: see pro, I see pros and cons. Okay. Uh, but I, I think your opinion should be independent of mine.Aaron Levie: Yeah. No, no, totally. Yeah. I just want to see what I'm stepping into.swyx: No, I know. It's a, and it's a huge trigger word for a lot of people out Yeah. In our audience. And they're, they're trying to figure out why is that? Because whyAaron Levie: is this such aswyx: hot item for them? Because a lot of people get graph religion.And they're like, everything's a graph. Of course you have to represent it as a graph. Well, [00:47:00] how do you solve your knowledge? Um, changing over time? Well, it's a graph.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: And, and I think there, there's that line of work and then there's, there's a lot of people who are like, well, you don't need it. And both are right.Aaron Levie: Yeah. And what do the people who say you don't need it, what are theyswyx: arguing for Mark down files. Oh, sure, sure. Simplicity.Aaron Levie: Yeah.swyx: Versus it's, it's structure versus less structure. Right. That's, that's all what it is. I do.Aaron Levie: I think the tricky thing is, um, is, is again, when this gets met with real humans, they're just going to their computer.They're just working with some people on Slack or teams. They're just sharing some data through a collaborative file system and Google Docs or Box or whatever. I certainly like the vision of most, most knowledge graph, you know, kind of futuristic kind of ways of thinking about it. Uh, it's just like, you know, it's 2026.We haven't seen it yet. Kind of play out as as, I mean, I remember. Do you remember the, um, in like, actually I don't, I don't even know how old you guys are, but I'll for, for to show my age. I remember 17 years ago, everybody thought enterprises would just run on [00:48:00] Wikis. Yeah. And, uh, confluence and, and not even, I mean, confluence actually took off for engineering for sure.Like unquestionably. But like, this was like everything would be in the w. And I think based on our, uh, our, uh, general style of, of, of what we were building, like we were just like, I don't know, people just like wanna workspace. They're gonna collaborate with other people.swyx: Exactly. Yeah. So you were, you were anti-knowledge graph.Aaron Levie: Not anti, not anti. Soswyx: not nonAaron Levie: I'm not, I'm not anti. ‘cause I think, I think your search system, I just think these are two systems that probably, but like, I'm, I'm not in any religious war. I don't want to be in anybody's YouTube comments on this. There's not a fight for me.swyx: We, we love YouTube comments. We're, we're, we're get into comments.Aaron Levie: Okay. Uh, but like, but I, I, it's mostly just a virtue of what we built. Yeah. And we just continued down that path. Yeah.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: And, um, and that, that was what we pursued. But I'm not, this is not a, you know, kind of, this is not a, uh, it'sswyx: not existential for you. Great.Aaron Levie: We're happy to plug into somebody else's graph.We're happy to feed data into it. We're happy for [00:49:00] agents to, to talk to multiple systems. Not, not our fight.swyx: Yeah.Aaron Levie: But I need your answer. Yeah. Graphs or nerd Snipes is very effective nerd.swyx: See this is, this is one, one opinion and then I've,Jeff Huber: and I think that the actual graph structure is emergent in the mind of the agent.Ah, in the same way it is in the mind of the human. And that's a more powerful graph ‘cause it actually involved over time.swyx: So don't tell me how to graph. I'll, I'll figure it out myself. Exactly. Okay. All right. AndJeff Huber: what's yours?swyx: I like the, the Wiki approach. Uh, my, I'm actually

A new wave of experiments is testing whether AI agents can build and run companies without human employees, with projects like FelixCraft generating revenue and platforms like Pulia launching hundreds of autonomous startups. The trend highlights how dramatically the cost of execution is falling—but also raises the question of whether more AI-generated businesses will translate into real outcomes or simply more competition for scarce human attention. In the headlines: Cursor hits $2B ARR after doubling in three months, Claude outages signal surging demand, the OpenAI–Pentagon dispute escalates in Washington, and new sightings fuel speculation about a mysterious OpenAI device.PLEASE CONTRIBUTE TO OUR FEB AI USAGE PULSE SURVEY: https://aidailybrief.ai/pulse-surveyWant to build with OpenClaw?LEARN MORE ABOUT CLAW CAMP: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://campclaw.ai/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Or for enterprises, check out: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://enterpriseclaw.ai/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Brought to you by:KPMG – Agentic AI is powering a potential $3 trillion productivity shift, and KPMG's new paper, Agentic AI Untangled, gives leaders a clear framework to decide whether to build, buy, or borrow—download it at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.kpmg.us/Navigate⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Mercury - Modern banking for business and now personal accounts. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mercury.com/personal-banking⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rackspace Technology - Build, test and scale intelligent workloads faster with Rackspace AI Launchpad - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://rackspace.com/ailaunchpad⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Blitzy - Want to accelerate enterprise software development velocity by 5x? ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://blitzy.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Optimizely Agents in Action - Join the virtual event (with me!) free March 4 - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.optimizely.com/insights/agents-in-action/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠AssemblyAI - The best way to build Voice AI apps - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.assemblyai.com/brief⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LandfallIP - AI to Navigate the Patent Process - https://landfallip.com/Robots & Pencils - Cloud-native AI solutions that power results ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://robotsandpencils.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Agent Readiness Audit from Superintelligent - Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://besuper.ai/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠to request your company's agent readiness score.The AI Daily Brief helps you understand the most important news and discussions in AI. Subscribe to the podcast version of The AI Daily Brief wherever you listen: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://pod.link/1680633614⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Our Newsletter is BACK: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://aidailybrief.beehiiv.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠Interested in sponsoring the show? sponsors@aidailybrief.ai

Get the Claude Code guide (12 prompts + 4 workflows): https://clickhubspot.com/rqm Ep. 405 Did you know it's possible to build and launch a fully interactive inbound marketing campaign—including research, copy, and lead magnets—without writing any code or ever touching a conventional workflow tool? Kipp, Kieran, and guest James Dickerson (co-founder of Boring Marketing) dive into the world of Claude Code, demystifying how Learn more as they break down the real power of Claude Code—including what makes it radically different from using Claude in the browser, how to use skills to multiply what you can accomplish, and tactical advice for automating website and campaign launches from scratch. Mentions James Dickerson https://www.linkedin.com/in/jadickerson/ Boring Marketing https://boringmarketing.com/ Claude Code https://code.claude.com/docs/en/overview Replit https://replit.com/ Cursor https://cursor.com/ Firecrawl https://www.firecrawl.dev/ Playwright https://playwright.dev/ Perplexity https://www.perplexity.ai/ Get our guide to build your own Custom GPT: https://clickhubspot.com/customgpt We're creating our next round of content and want to ensure it tackles the challenges you're facing at work or in your business. To understand your biggest challenges we've put together a survey and we'd love to hear from you! https://bit.ly/matg-research Resource [Free] Steal our favorite AI Prompts featured on the show! Grab them here: https://clickhubspot.com/aip We're on Social Media! Follow us for everyday marketing wisdom straight to your feed YouTube: ​​https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGtXqPiNV8YC0GMUzY-EUFg  Twitter: https://twitter.com/matgpod  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@matgpod  Join our community https://landing.connect.com/matg Thank you for tuning into Marketing Against The Grain! Don't forget to hit subscribe and follow us on Apple Podcasts (so you never miss an episode)! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/marketing-against-the-grain/id1616700934   If you love this show, please leave us a 5-Star Review https://link.chtbl.com/h9_sjBKH and share your favorite episodes with friends. We really appreciate your support. Host Links: Kipp Bodnar, https://twitter.com/kippbodnar   Kieran Flanagan, https://twitter.com/searchbrat  ‘Marketing Against The Grain' is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by Hubspot Media // Produced by Darren Clarke.

Get Matt's AI Playbook: https://clickhubspot.com/rku Episode 99: What happens when a leading AI company takes a stand against the U.S. government's demands? Join Matt Wolfe (https://x.com/mreflow) and Joe Fier (linkedin.com/in/joefier) as they break down Anthropic's showdown with the Pentagon—and the price of saying no to mass surveillance and autonomous weapons. This episode dives into the high-stakes standoff between Anthropic (creators of Claude) and the U.S. government. Matt and Joe explain why Anthropic's refusal to loosen its AI's ethical guardrails could get them blacklisted as a supply chain risk, and what that unprecedented move means for the entire tech industry. They cover the implications for national security, the tech world's role in military decisions, the Pentagon's shifting alliances with other AI labs, and what it means when Silicon Valley CEOs and government officials are at odds. Plus, they demo the latest AI tools—like Google's Nano Banana 2—and dissect the present and future of AI-powered agents and automation, from Perplexity Computer to BK's new “Patty” assistant. Check out The Next Wave YouTube Channel if you want to see Matt and Nathan on screen: https://lnk.to/thenextwavepd — Show Notes: (00:00) Anthropic, AI, and Pentagon Tensions (05:30) AI Tools & Military Decisions Debate (06:51) Pentagon Targets Anthropic as Risk (10:01) Anthropic's Exclusive Government Access (14:07) AI Amplifying Government Surveillance Concerns (16:44) AI Safety: Shared Goals, Different Paths (23:05) Nano Banana 2: Faster Images (23:48) Nano Banana 2: Enhanced Generation (27:15) Struggling to Achieve 4K (30:01) Gemini Settings and Performance (33:46) AI Testing and Limitations (36:45) Trump Blacklists Anthropic AI (41:57) Crazy Viral Videos Recap (45:07) Nano Banana 2: Free Everywhere (46:49) Cloud-Based Model Switching (49:15) AI Agents Expand Capabilities (52:50) Burger King Employee Monitoring Tech (56:35) Politeness Tracker's Future Impact (58:43) Unfiltered Updates and Insights — Mentions: Joe Fier: https://www.instagram.com/joefier/ OpenClaw: https://openclaw.ai/ Manus: https://manus.im/ Nano Banana 2: https://blog.google/innovation-and-ai/technology/ai/nano-banana-2/ Perplexity: https://www.perplexity.ai/ Claude: https://claude.ai/ Gemini: https://gemini.google.com/app Cursor: https://cursor.com/ Get the guide to build your own Custom GPT: https://clickhubspot.com/tnw — Check Out Matt's Stuff: • Future Tools - https://futuretools.beehiiv.com/ • Blog - https://www.mattwolfe.com/ • YouTube- https://www.youtube.com/@mreflow — Check Out Nathan's Stuff: Newsletter: https://news.lore.com/ Blog - https://lore.com/ The Next Wave is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by Hubspot Media // Production by Darren Clarke // Editing by Ezra Bakker Trupiano

Jem's rocking top-tier muffs that isolate a screaming spindle while the guys talk one-click Kanban card glory. They discuss the magic of good- documentation, fighting AI amnesia with markdown, and the logistics of shipping PS2 kits to the States. From bike-ride domain buys to handling trade apathy, it's a heavy look at refining the systems that keep a modern shop running.Watch on YoutubeDISCUSSED:✍️ Comment or Suggest a TopicCommunication in the trades, what the actual fuck? ꘎Are you driving Cursor remotely? ꘎Dylan got good muff recommendation ꘎Gemini Lead Interview Youtube @Justin Brouillette HA Dashboard for Bambuinput.buttonAirShop upatesNew Docs site

Fig traces data flows in the security stack and then alerts security teams when changes at any point affect detection or response capabilities. Also, the four-year-old startup Cursor saw its revenue run rate double over the past three months, according to one Bloomberg source. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yves Gugger, Gründer von RealyTea, zeigt, wie er mit rund 5.000 Franken einen eigenen Tee Onlineshop aufgebaut hat. Ohne Shopify. Ohne Magento. Ohne Agentur. Dafür mit ChatGPT, Midjourney, Cursor, Claude und viel Vibe Coding.Wir sprechen über:Onlineshop Aufbau mit KI von Grund aufBranding mit Midjourney und Design GuidelinesLebensmittelgesetz und Realitätsschock5.000 statt 50.000 Franken BudgetValley of Tears beim Vibe CodingWarum Mini Apps die Zukunft sindEine ehrliche Folge über Chancen, Grenzen und Learnings im E Commerce mit KI.Zum ausführlichen Blogartikel:https://www.beyonder.ch/blog-posts/ecommerce-ohne-agentur-mit-ki-vom-traum-zum-tee-onlineshop

In this episode of Run the Numbers, CJ breaks down the 5,000-year history of marketplaces—from Mesopotamia to Amazon—and the economics behind take rates, trust layers, and vertical unbundling. We unpack Airbnb's fee backlash, Facebook Marketplace's hidden value, why inventory kills platforms, and how AI will reshape discovery—without eliminating the middleman.—SPONSORS:Rillet is an AI-native ERP built for modern finance teams that want to close faster without fighting legacy systems. Designed to support complex revenue recognition, multi-entity operations, and real-time reporting, Rillet helps teams achieve a true zero-day close—with some customers closing in hours, not days. If you're scaling on an ERP that wasn't built in the 90s, book a demo at https://www.rillet.com/cjTabs is an AI-native revenue platform that unifies billing, collections, and revenue recognition for companies running usage-based or complex contracts. By bringing together ERP, CRM, and real product usage data into a single system of record, Tabs eliminates manual reconciliations and speeds up close and cash collection. Companies like Cortex, Statsig, and Cursor trust Tabs to scale revenue efficiently. Learn more at https://www.tabs.com/runAbacum is a modern FP&A platform built by former CFOs to replace slow, consultant-heavy planning tools. With self-service integrations and AI-powered workflows for forecasting, variance analysis, and scenario modeling, Abacum helps finance teams scale without becoming software admins. Trusted by teams at Strava, Replit, and JG Wentworth—learn more at https://www.abacum.aiBrex is an intelligent finance platform that combines corporate cards, built-in expense management, and AI agents to eliminate manual finance work. By automating expense reviews and reconciliations, Brex gives CFOs more time for the high-impact work that drives growth. Join 35,000+ companies like Anthropic, Coinbase, and DoorDash at https://www.brex.com/metricsMetronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That's why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.comRightRev is an automated revenue recognition platform built for modern pricing models like usage-based pricing, bundles, and mid-cycle upgrades. RightRev lets companies scale monetization without slowing down close or compliance. For RevRec that keeps growth moving, visit https://www.rightrev.com—LINKS: Mostly Talent: https://mostlymetrics.typeform.com/to/cLTxtAsNCJ: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/Mostly metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.comSlacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/Ben: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/—RELATED EPISODES:The Mindshare Advantage Marketplace Success With Boris Wertz of Version One Ventureshttps://youtu.be/kN61sAxw_ykThe Marketplace Plus Model Explained | Colin Gardiner of Yonder VChttps://youtu.be/VIWFVwCfyLEA CFO Explains the History of EBITDAhttps://youtu.be/JySZv_fSNqs—TIMESTAMPS:0:00 Preview1:34 Marketplace Origins2:48 The Digital Shift5:55 Unbundling of Craigslist9:56 Sponsors — Rillet | Tabs | Abacum13:21 Smart Phone Revolution17:33 Take Rate Calculations21:08 When the Marketplace Crosses the Line24:49 Sponsors — Brex | Metronome | RightRev28:09 When Fees Become Friction30:37 The Marketplace Plus Model33:26 The $100B Flea Market36:14 The Inventory Trap40:07 The Disintermediation Problem42:35 Convenience Beats Inspection45:09 AI Compresses the Marketplace47:56 You Can't Cut Out the Middleman50:03 Credits#RunTheNumbersPodcast #Marketplaces #PlatformEconomy #Middleman #TechStrategy

The agentic AI revolution is finally escaping the coding bubble. What does that mean for startup founders?Just 13 days after recording his first conversation with Yaniv, Gary Lo called to re-record. The reason? OpenClaw and Claude Cowork dropped some huge AI agent updates, and it shifted Gary's perspective enough to change the whole conversation.In this episode, Yaniv Bernstein sits down with Gary Lo – founder of OpenBA, one of Australia's most compelling pre-seed AI startups – to unpack why OpenClaw and Claude Cowork news marks a 'Cursor moment' for the rest of the world: the inflection point where AI stops being a productivity tool for tech teams and starts fundamentally reshaping how every industry works.They break down why tool use will make LLMs genuinely transformative, why non-technical business owners are already buying Mac Minis to run AI agents, and what the shift from 'human-first' to 'LLM-first' product design means for how you build and position your startup today. This episode is essential listening for any founder trying to figure out where to place their bets in an agentic world.In this episode, you'll learn:Why OpenClaw and Claude Cowork signal a 'Cursor moment' beyond software engineeringHow tool use transforms LLM weaknesses into strengthsWhy the long-promised vision of "everything as an API" is finally becoming realHow to think about building for agents vs. humans, and why most current tools aren't optimized for eitherThe "done list" mental model: how agentic coding is collapsing the coordination layers in software workflowsWhy being "a tool worth calling" – like Supabase – is a smarter bet than competing directly with AI modelsHow Gary is applying LLM-first thinking to OpenBA's roadmap right nowResources mentioned in this episode:OpenClaw: https://openclaw.ai/Claude Cowork (Anthropic's agentic desktop tool): https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-coworkCursor (AI-native code editor, referenced as the original 'Cursor moment' for coding): https://www.cursor.comSupabase (referenced as an example of a tool that rides the agentic AI wave): https://supabase.comOpenBA (Gary Lo's startup - AI platform for buyer's agents): https://openba.com.auGary Lo on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-lo-engineer/The Pact Honor the Startup Podcast Pact! If you have listened to TSP and gotten value from it, please:Follow, rate, and review us in your listening appSubscribe to the TSP Mailing List to gain access to exclusive newsletter-only content and early access to information on upcoming episodes: https://thestartuppodcast.beehiiv.com/subscribe Secure your official TSP merchandise at https://shop.tsp.show/ Follow us here on YouTube for full-video episodes: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNjm1MTdjysRRV07fSf0yGg Give us a public shout-out on LinkedIn or anywhere you have a social media followingKey linksThis episode of the Startup Podcast is sponsored by .tech domains. Forget weird prefixes and creative misspellings; the availability for .tech domains is simply way better than .com. For a clean name that highlights your tech credentials, get a .tech domain at your favorite registrar.Get your question in for our next Q&A episode: https://forms.gle/NZzgNWVLiFmwvFA2A The Startup Podcast website: https://www.tsp.show/episodes/Learn more about Chris and YanivWork 1:1 with Chris: http://chrissaad.com/advisory/ Follow Chris on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrissaad/ Follow Yaniv on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ybernstein/Producer: Justin McArthur https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-mcarthurIntro Voice: Jeremiah Owyang https://web-strategist.com/

Jerry Murdock is the Co-Founder of Insight Partners, one of the most formidable growth investors of the last three decades, with over $90 billion in AUM and a portfolio that has shaped the modern software economy. Jerry never does podcasts, and so this is his first-ever long-form interview.  AGENDA: 03:50 There is an AI Tsunami Beginning 05:43 Cursor is F***** and Everyone Knows It 07:28 How Open Source Will Crush in an Agent First World 10:20 Is NVIDIA F**** 17:32 Are Systems of Record Dead in an Agent-First World 21:04 Humans Will Not Buy Software, Agents Will… 24:57 Universal Basic Income Will Have to Happen, Mass Unemployment is Coming 30:54 What Happens to Tech Private Equity: Is Thoma Bravo F****** 37:50 What Single Decision Does Jerry Regret Most… Why? 41:45 Single Biggest Mistake With Insight… What Did Jerry Learn? 45:26 Why is Now the Best Time to Start a Fund 47:03 The Twitter Bet that Made $90BN Insight 49:34 Biggest Marriage and Parenting Advice 56:04 Will Agents Help Us Live Forever    

We sit down with Brendan Eich, the creator of JavaScript and CEO of Brave, to cover indirect prompt injection threats, why senior devs still can't trust AI-generated code, and how Brave is building agent security from scratch.We cover:- How Indirect Prompt Injection Actually Works- Why ChatGPT Silently Downgrades Your Security- Can Senior Devs Trust AI-Generated Code?- Brave's Agent Mode Defense System-The Future of Crypto Micropayments via Solana & NEAR- Why the AI Bubble Will Slowly Burst- Should Young People Still Study CS?Timestamps:00:00 Intro00:26 Brave's AI Integration & Leo01:00 Browser Knowledge Agents03:37 Indirect Prompt Injection Explained05:20 Brave's Agent Mode Security Layers07:13 AI-Generated Code: Can You Trust It?08:05 Using Claude, Cursor & Open Code at Brave11:09 Inventing JavaScript in 10 Days11:14 Hibachi, infiniFi Ads12:57 TypeScript's AI Feedback Loop13:06 Lean Engineering & Minimum Viable Product15:40 Should Young People Study CS?17:17 Vibe Coding & AI Slop17:32 Relay Ad18:05 Brave's Privacy-First AI Approach20:15 Crypto Agent Commerce & Security22:52 AI Hype, S-Curves & the Bubble23:04 Micropayments & the Death of SaaS24:31 Solana Settlement & NEAR Partnership26:25 Blockchain Privacy vs. Coinbase PanopticonWebsite: https://therollup.co/Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1P6ZeYd...Podcast: https://therollup.co/category/podcastFollow us on X: https://www.x.com/therollupcoFollow Rob on X: https://www.x.com/robbie_rollupFollow Andy on X: https://www.x.com/ayyyeandyJoin our TG group: https://t.me/+TsM1CRpWFgk1NGZhThe Rollup Disclosures: https://goodidea.ventures

Hey, it's Alex, let me tell you why I think this week is an inflection point.Just this week: Everyone is launching autonomous agents or features inspired by OpenClaw (Devin 2.2, Cursor, Claude Cowork, Microsoft, Perplexity and Nous announced theirs), METR and ArcAGI 2,3 benchmarks are getting saturated, 1 person companies nearing 1M ARR within months of operation by running AI agents 24/7 (we chatted with one of them on the show today, live as he broke $700K ARR barrier) and the US Department of War gives Anthropic an ultimatum to remove nearly all restrictions on Claude for war and Anthropic says NO. I've been covering AI for 3 years every week, and this week feels, different. So if we are nearing the singularity, let me at least keep you up to date

CJ sits down with Mike Jung, Co-Founder and Managing Partner of Founders Circle Capital. They unpack the rise of structured liquidity, how secondaries went mainstream, and what CFOs should know before running a tender. Mike shares lessons from the dot-com era, AI's “super cycle,” and what separates durable growth companies from hype.—SPONSORS:RightRev is an automated revenue recognition platform built for modern pricing models like usage-based pricing, bundles, and mid-cycle upgrades. RightRev lets companies scale monetization without slowing down close or compliance. For RevRec that keeps growth moving, visit https://www.rightrev.comRillet is an AI-native ERP built for modern finance teams that want to close faster without fighting legacy systems. Designed to support complex revenue recognition, multi-entity operations, and real-time reporting, Rillet helps teams achieve a true zero-day close—with some customers closing in hours, not days. If you're scaling on an ERP that wasn't built in the 90s, book a demo at https://www.rillet.com/cjTabs is an AI-native revenue platform that unifies billing, collections, and revenue recognition for companies running usage-based or complex contracts. By bringing together ERP, CRM, and real product usage data into a single system of record, Tabs eliminates manual reconciliations and speeds up close and cash collection. Companies like Cortex, Statsig, and Cursor trust Tabs to scale revenue efficiently. Learn more at https://www.tabs.com/runAbacum is a modern FP&A platform built by former CFOs to replace slow, consultant-heavy planning tools. With self-service integrations and AI-powered workflows for forecasting, variance analysis, and scenario modeling, Abacum helps finance teams scale without becoming software admins. Trusted by teams at Strava, Replit, and JG Wentworth—learn more at https://www.abacum.aiBrex is an intelligent finance platform that combines corporate cards, built-in expense management, and AI agents to eliminate manual finance work. By automating expense reviews and reconciliations, Brex gives CFOs more time for the high-impact work that drives growth. Join 35,000+ companies like Anthropic, Coinbase, and DoorDash at https://www.brex.com/metricsMetronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That's why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.com—LINKS: Mostly Talent: https://mostlymetrics.typeform.com/to/cLTxtAsNMike: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikjunghttps://www.founderscircle.com/CJ: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/https://www.mostlymetrics.com—TIMESTAMPS:1:08 Founder Circle origin3:15 The founder liquidity insight5:16 Staying private longer problem6:04 Secondary market control vs chaos8:44 Secondaries over IPOs10:12 Liquidity keeps VC alive11:27 Ask Jeeves dot-com lesson12:26 $190 to $1 + AMT reality13:10 Sponsors — RightRev | Rillet | Tabs16:39 Private share opacity risk20:25 Founder + employee liquidity playbooks21:55 Early investors need liquidity too22:31 Cap table math actually matters24:17 SPV fee stacking insanity25:37 Sponsors — Abacum | Brex | Metronome28:54 Tender offer guardrails30:09 Minimum vs maximum liquidity balance33:01 Growth stage sweet spot + IPO bar rising34:17 AI Cambrian explosion34:58 Buying fear vs buying hype36:29 AI growth sustainability37:19 Founder-led advantage + product velocity38:47 TAM is created, not measured41:06 Anti-portfolio lessons43:01 What is a supercycle44:34 Do supercycles end in crashes?46:16 AI's unprecedented adoption curve48:31 Community as a moat52:50 Earning the right to be on the cap table

Stripe, the programmable financial services company, has signed agreements with investors to provide liquidity to current and former Stripe employees through a tender offer at a $159B (€135B) valuation. While the majority of funds for the tender offer are being provided by investors including Thrive Capital, Coatue, a16z, and others, Stripe will also use a portion of its own capital to repurchase shares. Stripe also published its 2025 annual letter to the Stripe community, detailing a strong year for businesses on Stripe and the internet economy overall. Businesses running on Stripe generated $1.9 trillion in total volume, up 34% from 2024, and equivalent to roughly 1.6% of global GDP. Beyond payments, Stripe's Revenue suite (comprising Stripe Billing, Invoicing, Tax, and more) is on track to hit an annual run rate of $1 billion this year. In the letter, cofounders Patrick and John Collison wrote: "Our programmable financial services now power more than 5 million businesses directly or via platforms, including all of the top AI companies, many of the largest blue-chip companies (90% of the Dow Jones Industrial Average), most of the biggest tech companies (80% of the Nasdaq 100), and a significant fraction of freshly minted startups (25% of all Delaware corporations are now created with Stripe Atlas) […] Stripe remained robustly profitable, allowing us to continue investing heavily in product development (with more than 350 product updates last year) as well as acquisitions. […] All in all, 2025 was a strong year for the internet economy, and we're delighted to see so many of Stripe's customers do so well." Kareem Zaki, partner at Thrive Capital, said: "After a decade of partnership and seeing their work up close, we believe Stripe has built the premiere financial infrastructure stack for the internet economy, relied on by the fastest growing companies for payments, billing, fraud prevention, tax, and more. While their core business has never been stronger, we believe their most transformative chapters are being written right now. We believe Stripe's lead will only expand across the future of money movement due to their leadership in agentic commerce, stablecoins, and more." New businesses on Stripe are scaling at record speed The 2025 cohort of new businesses on Stripe is the highest performing in the company's history. More new companies joined Stripe in 2025 than ever before, with more than half (57%) based outside the US. Businesses in the 2025 cohort grew around 50% faster than the 2024 cohort. The number of companies reaching $10 million ARR within 3 months of launch was double the 2024 count. Companies incorporated via Stripe Atlas are also monetising sooner: in 2025, 20% of Atlas startups charged their first customer within 30 days, up from 8% in 2020. Businesses on Stripe are increasingly global by default Over the last few years, the country-by-country expansion model has melted away. The "domestic market" for a new generation of internet businesses is the internet itself. Nearly every recognisable AI product launched globally by default, including ChatGPT, Claude, Replit, Lovable, Base44, Vercel, Cursor, Midjourney, and many more. Among Stripe businesses with mostly international revenue, 30% of that revenue comes from countries that are neither their home market nor one of the top 10 global economies. "This isn't merely about incremental revenue from a 'long tail' of international users. In many cases, the 'long tail' is much of the dog," the Collisons wrote. Building the economic infrastructure for AI Agentic commerce has moved into a phase of building and real-world experimentation. As with the early internet, the future success of agentic commerce is contingent on universal interoperability. To that end, Stripe has been working with a broad set of partners across AI labs, retailers, and leading ecommerce platforms to lay the groundwork for this generational shift: With OpenAI, Stripe developed the Agentic Comm...

In this episode of Run the Numbers, CJ sits down with Mateo Bryant, CFO of Minted. They break down Minted's life-event flywheel and decades-long LTV, managing extreme seasonality when half the year happens in one month, and balancing long-term CAC with short-term monetization. Mateo also shares lessons from scaling Uber and Amazon globally, localization missteps, and making marketplaces work in emerging markets.—SPONSORS:Abacum is a modern FP&A platform built by former CFOs to replace slow, consultant-heavy planning tools. With self-service integrations and AI-powered workflows for forecasting, variance analysis, and scenario modeling, Abacum helps finance teams scale without becoming software admins. Trusted by teams at Strava, Replit, and JG Wentworth—learn more at https://www.abacum.aiBrex is an intelligent finance platform that combines corporate cards, built-in expense management, and AI agents to eliminate manual finance work. By automating expense reviews and reconciliations, Brex gives CFOs more time for the high-impact work that drives growth. Join 35,000+ companies like Anthropic, Coinbase, and DoorDash at https://www.brex.com/metricsMetronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That's why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.comRightRev is an automated revenue recognition platform built for modern pricing models like usage-based pricing, bundles, and mid-cycle upgrades. RightRev lets companies scale monetization without slowing down close or compliance. For RevRec that keeps growth moving, visit https://www.rightrev.comRillet is an AI-native ERP built for modern finance teams that want to close faster without fighting legacy systems. Designed to support complex revenue recognition, multi-entity operations, and real-time reporting, Rillet helps teams achieve a true zero-day close—with some customers closing in hours, not days. If you're scaling on an ERP that wasn't built in the 90s, book a demo at https://www.rillet.com/cjTabs is an AI-native revenue platform that unifies billing, collections, and revenue recognition for companies running usage-based or complex contracts. By bringing together ERP, CRM, and real product usage data into a single system of record, Tabs eliminates manual reconciliations and speeds up close and cash collection. Companies like Cortex, Statsig, and Cursor trust Tabs to scale revenue efficiently. Learn more at https://www.tabs.com/run—LINKS: Mostly Talent: https://mostlymetrics.typeform.com/to/cLTxtAsNMateo: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryantmatt/Minted: https://www.minted.com/CJ: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/Mostly metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com—RELATED EPISODES:Peter Oey, CFO of Grab:https://youtu.be/tdq0AZO0dLU—TIMESTAMPS:00:00 Intro03:16 Fixer to CFO05:32 Mexico City Startups09:00 Minted Flywheel10:24 LTV Expansion11:04 Entry Points12:18 CAC and Cohorts13:42 Sponsors: Metronome | RightRev | Rillet17:06 Wedding Lifecycle19:49 Holiday Forecasting22:23 Retail Calendar24:03 Cash Flow Swings25:05 Marketing Over Sales26:06 Email Limits27:41 Sponsors: Tabs | Abacum | Brex31:02 Retail Strategy35:08 Global Experience40:47 Uber Cash Economics46:04 Cost of Not Localizing50:19 Importer of Record53:17 No Google Lesson55:34 QBR Mistake56:48 High Leverage Hours59:03 Finance Stack59:50 Seven Day Cruise Expense#RunTheNumbersPodcast #MarketplaceStrategy #EcommerceFinance #GigEconomy #CFOInsights

AI agents differ from chatbots by pursuing autonomous goals through the ReACT loop rather than responding to turn-based prompts. While coding agents are currently the most reliable due to verifiable feedback loops, the market is expanding into desktop and browser automation via tools like Claude co-work and open claw. Links Notes and resources at ocdevel.com/mlg/mla-28 Try a walking desk - stay healthy & sharp while you learn & code Generate a podcast - use my voice to listen to any AI generated content you want Fundamental Definitions Agent vs. Chatbot: Chatbots are turn-based and human-driven. Agents receive objectives and dynamically direct their own processes. The ReACT Loop: Every modern agent uses the cycle: Thought -> Action -> Observation. This interleaved reasoning and tool usage allows agents to update plans and handle exceptions. Performance: Models using agentic loops with self-correction outperform stronger zero-shot models. GPT-3.5 with an agent loop scored 95.1% on HumanEval, while zero-shot GPT-4 scored 67.0%. The Agentic Spectrum Chat: No tools or autonomy. Chat + Tools: Human-driven web search or code execution. Workflows: LLMs used in predefined code paths. The human designs the flow, the AI adds intelligence at specific nodes. Agents: LLMs dynamically choose their own path and tools based on observations. Tool Categories and Market Players Developer Frameworks: Use LangGraph for complex, stateful graphs or CrewAI for role-based multi-agent delegation. OpenAI Agents SDK provides minimalist primitives (Handoffs, Sessions), while the Claude Agent SDK focuses on local computer interaction. Workflow Automation: n8n and Zapier provide low-code interfaces. These are stable for repeatable business tasks but limited by fixed paths and a lack of persistent memory between runs. Coding Agents: Claude Code, Cursor, and GitHub Copilot are the most advanced agents. They succeed because code provides an unambiguous feedback loop (pass/fail) for the ReACT cycle. Desktop and Browser Agents: Claude Cowork( (released Jan 2026) operates in isolated VMs to produce documents. ChatGPT Atlas is a Chromium-based browser with integrated agent capabilities for web tasks. Autonomous Agents: open claw is an open-source, local system with broad permissions across messaging, file systems, and hardware. While powerful, it carries high security risks, including 512 identified vulnerabilities and potential data exfiltration. Infrastructure and Standards MCP (Model Context Protocol): A universal standard for connecting agents to tools. It has 10,000+ servers and is used by Anthropic, OpenAI, and Google. Future Outlook: By 2028, multi-agent coordination will be the default architecture. Gartner predicts 38% of organizations will utilize AI agents as formal team members, and the developer role will transition primarily to objective specification and output evaluation.

00:00:00 – Sleep-deprived cold open 00:04:24 – Obama says "aliens are real" 00:09:23 – Trump "declassify the alien files" bluff 00:12:59 – Moon base bear cartel sketch 00:17:52 – CIA UFO psyops as distraction template 00:22:22 – Las Vegas substation rammer "terrorism" talk 00:31:42 – Metcalf sniper attack as state-actor rehearsal 00:35:42 – "Programmed" lone wolves and misfires 00:35:55 – Sam Altman's human-vs-AI energy comparison 00:45:07 – 9/11 put-options and the "no terrorist ties" dodge 00:50:08 – Howard Lutnick insider-trade windfall accusation 00:55:13 – Wexner's whisper-lawyer intimidation moment 00:58:53 – Epstein list panic-spin on daytime TV 01:02:56 – Sam Harris "eat the babies" clip outrage 01:07:54 – Bongino's post-FBI audience collapse stats 01:12:18 – Babylon Bee comments turning on the narrative 01:17:01 – Neil deGrasse Tyson defends "trust the experts" 01:21:56 – Call-in spirals into Iran war forecasting 01:26:34 – AI tool picks: Claude vs ChatGPT vs Cursor 01:31:03 – Will Trump use Roswell as "disclosure" theater 01:35:55 – Olympic condom black market chaos in Milan 01:40:38 – William Shatner's metal album stunt 01:49:16 – LA bus agency begs riders not to poop 01:59:03 – Nantucket wastewater outs the elite coke habit 02:03:12 – End-of-show riffing and wrap   Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research ▀▄▀▄▀ CONTACT LINKS ▀▄▀▄▀ ► Website: http://obdmpod.com ► Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/obdmpod ► Full Videos at Odysee: https://odysee.com/@obdm:0 ► Twitter: https://twitter.com/obdmpod ► Instagram: obdmpod ► Email: ourbigdumbmouth at gmail ► RSS: http://ourbigdumbmouth.libsyn.com/rss ► iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/our-big-dumb-mouth/id261189509?mt=2  

Alexander Embiricos is the Head of Codex at OpenAI, leading the development of the company's flagship AI coding systems that power automated software generation, debugging and developer workflows. Under his leadership, Codex has become one of the most widely adopted AI developer platforms.  AGENDA: 05:13 Will Coding Be Automated? Why AI Could Create More Engineers, Not Fewer 07:17 Do We Need PMs? The "Undefined" Product Role and When It Matters 08:06 The Real AGI Bottleneck: Human Prompting, Validation, and "Too Much Effort" 13:04 Three Phases of Agents: Coding → Computer Use → Productized Workflows 13:52 Enterprise Reality Check: Security, Permissions, and Safe Agentic Browsing 17:57 Is Inference the New Sales and Marketing?  18:49 What % of Codex Was Written by AI? 21:33 Do OpenAI Use AI for Code Review? 23:31 Is there any stickiness to AI coding tools? 28:22 What Does "Winning" Mean at OpenAI? Mission, Competition, and Moats 32:04 The Future UI: Chat or Voice 34:10 Agent-to-Agent Workflows: Designing for Approvals, Compliance, and Automation 35:39 Do Coding Models Have a Data Moat? 36:50 How does Codex View Data: Will They Build Their Own Mercor and Turing? 37:27 How Does Codex View Consumer: Will They Compete with Lovable? 41:56 Benchmarks vs "Vibes": How People Actually Judge Models 42:43 Cursor's Edge and the Case for Building Your Own Models 47:37 Is SaaS Dead? What Still Defends Value (Humans + Systems of Record) 51:28 Talent Wars and Career Advice for New Engineers in the AI Era 01:01:03 Guardrails, the Fully AI-Managed Stack, and a 10-Year Vision for Everyone      

Pour l'épisode de cette semaine, je reçois Gilles Barbier, entrepreneur récidiviste et fondateur de TinyStaff.Gilles évolue dans l'écosystème tech depuis plus de 20 ans : créateur de startups, ancien CTO de The Family, contributeur open source… Il suit aujourd'hui de très près la révolution en cours autour des agents IA et des nouveaux outils de développement.Au cours de cet épisode, nous avons parlé d'OpenClaw, le projet open source qui a explosé en quelques semaines (plus de 200 000 stars sur GitHub), et de ce qu'il change concrètement dans la façon de travailler.Nous avons abordé :Ce qu'est réellement OpenClaw et pourquoi il a suscité un tel engouementLa différence entre une IA “chat” classique et une IA agentique proactiveComment Gilles a construit TinyStaff au-dessus d'OpenClaw pour proposer des “virtual employees” prêts à l'emploiL'impact des outils comme Claude Code, Codex ou Cursor sur la productivité des développeursLe coût réel des tokens et la question des abonnements vs APIL'avenir des SaaS face aux agents : disparition, transformation ou adaptation ?Pourquoi les éditeurs devront rendre leurs produits “agent-compatible” (API, CLI, MCP…)Ce que cette révolution va changer, au-delà des développeurs, pour tous les métiersUn épisode un peu différent, plus “actu chaude” que d'habitude, mais passionnant pour comprendre la vague en cours et anticiper ses conséquences sur l'écosystème SaaS.Vous pouvez suivre Gilles sur LinkedIn.Bonne écoute !Pour soutenir SaaS Connection en 1 minute⏱ (et 2 secondes) :Abonnez-vous à SaaS Connection sur votre plateforme préférée pour ne rater aucun épisode

If you thought the internet was a dumpster fire before, the EU LAUNCHES SECOND INVESTIGATION INTO GROK because Musk's bot won't stop generating nonconsensual imagery. Meanwhile, META LARGELY FAILS TO PROTECT KIDS FROM AI CHATBOTS, proving that their internal safety checks are about as effective as a screen door on a submarine. If that doesn't creep you out, AFTER RING PRIVACY BACKLASH over police partnerships, a LEAKED EMAIL SUGGESTS RING PLANS TO EXPAND ‘SEARCH PARTY' from finding lost dogs to total neighborhood surveillance. Of course, REDDIT, META, AND GOOGLE VOLUNTARILY GAVE DHS INFO on users critical of ICE, because why stand up for privacy when you can just comply?In the news, we look at OPENCLAW, OPENAI AND THE FUTURE as the project's founder joins the Borg, even though META AND OTHER TECH FIRMS PUT RESTRICTIONS ON USE OF OPENCLAW because it's basically a security hole that can click your mouse for you. Peak stupidity has arrived with RFK JR'S NEW CHATBOT giving rectal dietary advice, while AI COMPANIES BOUGHT OUT ALL OF WESTERN DIGITAL'S HARD DRIVES through 2026, meaning you can't have storage because the bots need it more. Even VALVE ADMITS STEAM DECK AVAILABILITY IS AFFECTED by this memory hoarding. We also touch on STEVE BANNON SUED OVER MAGA CRYPTO SCHEME, LOS ANGELES COUNTY FILES LAWSUIT AGAINST ROBLOX for being a safety nightmare, and the fact that TESLA ROBOTAXIS REPORTEDLY CRASHING at four times the human rate. TESLA DODGES 30-DAY SUSPENSION by simply killing the word "Autopilot," while NEW YORK HITS THE BRAKES ON ROBOTAXI EXPANSION to keep the chaos at bay. Finally, POLYMARKET WITHDRAWS EXPLOSIVE ARTEMIS BETTING MARKET because betting on dead astronauts is too much even for them, leading the ETHEREUM CREATOR STARTING TO THINK THIS WHOLE PREDICTION MARKET THING MIGHT BE GAMBLING. As NEVADA SUES KALSHI and Jack Dorsey oversees INSIDE THE ROLLING LAYOFFS AT JACK DORSEY'S BLOCK—using AI to summarize the misery of his employees—just remember: YOU'LL BE SORRY WHEN YOU HEAR WHAT JUSTIN BIEBER'S $1.3 MILLION BORED APE IS WORTH NOW. Hint: it's twelve grand.In this week's MEDIA CANDY, we've got FREE BERT, KAT WILLIAMS: THE LAST REPORT, and the eternal return of SHREK. We're checking out MARK ROBER on Netflix, the return of MONARCH: LEGACY OF MONSTERS, and the trailer for GOOD LUCK, HAVE FUN, DON'T DIE. If you need a soundtrack for the apocalypse, Thomas Benjamin Wild Esq has you covered with STOP USING GENERATIVE A.I and the Gen-X anthem I'VE NO MORE F*S TO GIVE!.Moving to APPS & DOODADS, OBSIDIAN TO NOTES is a $14 well spent, unlike CURSOR and VISUAL STUDIO CODE which are getting bogged down by slow models. APPLE'S AI PENDANT sounds like a watered-down Humane pin that relies on your phone to think, and APPLE PODCASTS AND VIDEO remains a pipe dream because bandwidth costs money. We've reached the point where THERE'S A GRIM NEW EXPRESSION: “AI;DR” for things not worth reading, and THERE'S A NEW TERM FOR WORKERS FREAKING OUT over being replaced—AIRD, or AI Replacement Dysfunction—which is basically the low-grade panic of being made obsolete by a machine that thinks bananas go in your bum.AT THE LIBRARY, we're thumbing through CLEAVE THE SPARROW, THE REGICIDE REPORT by Charles Stross, and Robin Ince being NORMALLY WEIRD AND WEIRDLY NORMAL.Then we descend into THE DARK SIDE WITH DAVE, where the Muppets are taking over with THE MUPPET SHOW and MUPPETS NOW. We catch the latest on THE MANDALORIAN AND GROGU and TOY STORY 5, while tracking the PENTAGON PIZZA INDEX to see if war is breaking out. For the kids, we look at a 3D PRINTER / ENTRY LEVEL FOR KIDS like the Bambu Lab A1, and for the nerds, A STAR WARS-CENTRIC RSS FEED and a NEAT IDEA FOR AN RSS READER, “CURRENT,” which lets news drift away like water under a bridge. We wrap it all up with some HORROR IN UNDER TWO MINUTES and IMPECCABLE COVERS OF 80S SYNTH MUSIC, because at least the 80s had better soundtracks than this AI-generated nightmare.Sponsors:DeleteMe - Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com/GOG and use promo code GOG at checkout.SquareSpace - go to squarespace.com/GRUMPY for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use code GRUMPY to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.Private Internet Access - Go to GOG.Show/vpn and sign up today. For a limited time only, you can get OUR favorite VPN for as little as $2.03 a month.SetApp - With a single monthly subscription you get 240+ apps for your Mac. Go to SetApp and get started today!!!1Password - Get a great deal on the only password manager recommended by Grumpy Old Geeks! gog.show/1passwordShow notes at https://gog.show/734FOLLOW UPEU launches second investigation into Grok's nonconsensual image generationMeta largely fails to protect kids from AI chatbots, per its own testsAfter Ring privacy backlash, company abandons plans for police partnershipLeaked Email Suggests Ring Plans to Expand ‘Search Party' Surveillance Beyond DogsReddit, Meta, and Google Voluntarily Gave DHS Info of Anti-ICE Users, Report SaysIN THE NEWSOpenClaw, OpenAI and the futureMeta and Other Tech Firms Put Restrictions on Use of OpenClaw Over Security FearsRFK Jr's new chatbot advises the public on 'best foods to insert into rectum'AI Companies Bought Out All of Western Digital's Hard Drives for 2026 AlreadyValve admits Steam Deck availability is affected by memory and storage shortagesSteve Bannon sued over MAGA crypto schemeLos Angeles County files lawsuit against Roblox over child protectionsTesla Robotaxis Reportedly Crashing at a Rate That's 4x Higher Than HumansTesla dodges 30-day suspension in California after removing AutopilotNew York hits the brakes on robotaxi expansion planPolymarket withdraws explosive Artemis betting market after backlashEthereum Creator Starting to Think This Whole Prediction Market Thing Might be GamblingNevada sues Kalshi for operating a sports gambling market without a licenseInside the Rolling Layoffs at Jack Dorsey's BlockYou'll Be Sorry When You Hear What Justin Bieber's $1.3 Million Bored Ape Is Worth NowMEDIA CANDYFree BertKat Williams: The Last ReportShrekMark RoberMonarch: Legacy of MonstersGOOD LUCK, HAVE FUN, DON'T DIE | Official Trailer | February 13 - Only in TheatersSTOP USING GENERATIVE A.I (Original Song) by Thomas Benjamin Wild EsqI've No More F*s To Give! by Thomas Benjamin Wild EsqAPPS & DOODADSObsidian to NotesCursorVisual Studio CodeApple's AI Pendant Sounds Like a Watered-Down Humane Ai PinThere's a Grim New Expression: “AI;DR”There's a New Term for Workers Freaking Out Over Being Replaced by AIAT THE LIBRARYCleave the Sparrow by Jonathan KatzThe Regicide Report (Laundry Files Book 14) by Charles StrossNormally Weird and Weirdly Normal: My Adventures in Neurodiversity by Robin InceTHE DARK SIDE WITH DAVEDave BittnerThe CyberWireHacking HumansCaveatControl LoopOnly Malware in the BuildingThe Muppet ShowMuppets NowThe Mandalorian and Grogu | Official Trailer | In Theaters May 22Toy Story 5 | Official Trailer | In Theaters June 19Pentagon Pizza IndexBambu Lab A1A Star Wars-centric RSS feedCurrent RSS ReaderHorror in under two minutes.Impeccable covers of 80s synth musicTop Gun - Opening Theme (Synth Cover)CLOSING SHOUT-OUTSGreen Eggs and Ham narrated by the Reverend Jesse JacksonSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Michael Truell, CEO of Cursor, sits down with Patrick Collison, CEO of Stripe and an investor in Anysphere, to talk about Collison's history with Smalltalk and Lisp, the MongoDB and Ruby decisions Stripe still lives with 15 years later, why he'd spend even more time on API design if he could do it over, and whether AI is actually showing up in economic productivity data. This episode originally aired on Cursor's podcast.   Resources:  Follow Patrick Collison on X:   https://twitter.com/patrickc Follow Michael Truell on X: https://twitter.com/mntruell Follow Cursor: https://www.youtube.com/@cursor_ai Stay Updated:Find a16z on YouTube: YouTubeFind a16z on XFind a16z on LinkedInListen to the a16z Show on SpotifyListen to the a16z Show on Apple PodcastsFollow our host: https://twitter.com/eriktorenberg Please note that the content here is for informational purposes only; should NOT be taken as legal, business, tax, or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security; and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a16z fund. a16z and its affiliates may maintain investments in the companies discussed. For more details please see a16z.com/disclosures. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Boris Cherny is the creator and head of Claude Code at Anthropic. What began as a simple terminal-based prototype just a year ago has transformed the role of software engineering and is increasingly transforming all professional work.We discuss:1. How Claude Code grew from a quick hack to 4% of public GitHub commits, with daily active users doubling last month2. The counterintuitive product principles that drove Claude Code's success3. Why Boris believes coding is “solved”4. The latent demand that shaped Claude Code and Cowork5. Practical tips for getting the most out of Claude Code and Cowork6. How underfunding teams and giving them unlimited tokens leads to better AI products7. Why Boris briefly left Anthropic for Cursor, then returned after just two weeks8. Three principles Boris shares with every new team member—Brought to you by:DX—The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers: https://getdx.com/lennySentry—Code breaks, fix it faster: https://sentry.io/lennyMetaview—The AI platform for recruiting: https://metaview.ai/lenny—Episode transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/head-of-claude-code-what-happens—Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0—Where to find Boris Cherny:• X: https://x.com/bcherny• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bcherny• Website: https://borischerny.com—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Boris and Claude Code(03:45) Why Boris briefly left Anthropic for Cursor (and what brought him back)(05:35) One year of Claude Code(08:41) The origin story of Claude Code(13:29) How fast AI is transforming software development(15:01) The importance of experimentation in AI innovation(16:17) Boris's current coding workflow (100% AI-written)(17:32) The next frontier(22:24) The downside of rapid innovation (24:02) Principles for the Claude Code team(26:48) Why you should give engineers unlimited tokens(27:55) Will coding skills still matter in the future?(32:15) The printing press analogy for AI's impact(36:01) Which roles will AI transform next?(40:41) Tips for succeeding in the AI era(44:37) Poll: Which roles are enjoying their jobs more with AI(46:32) The principle of latent demand in product development(51:53) How Cowork was built in just 10 days(54:04) The three layers of AI safety at Anthropic(59:35) Anxiety when AI agents aren't working(01:02:25) Boris's Ukrainian roots(01:03:21) Advice for building AI products(01:08:38) Pro tips for using Claude Code effectively(01:11:16) Thoughts on Codex(01:12:13) Boris's post-AGI plans(01:14:02) Lightning round and final thoughts—References: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/head-of-claude-code-what-happens—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. To hear more, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com

There's a particular kind of clarity you get when you talk to someone who spends their days breaking into things for a living. Not with malice — with purpose. John Steigerwald, known to most in the industry simply as "Stigs," co-founded White Knight Labs in 2016 with a mission that sounds almost disarmingly simple: build the best penetration testing team anyone has ever seen, and actually deliver results. Nearly a decade later, the company has grown to 40 people, gone international, and is busier than ever. The question worth asking is: why?The uncomfortable answer, according to Stigs, is that the fundamental problems haven't changed. At all."Honestly, it's still 2015," he said during our most recent conversation on ITSPmagazine's Brand Story series. Not as a metaphor. As a diagnosis. The same misconfigurations, the same weak identity policies, the same unlocked back doors that red teamers were exploiting a decade ago are still wide open today. The apps built in a COVID-era frenzy — pushed out fast, tested never — are now running critical business infrastructure. And the organizations using them are only finding out when something breaks.What's changed is the surface area. Cloud, AI, Microsoft 365, vibe-coded production apps — each new layer of technology gets adopted at speed, and each one arrives carrying the same original sin: no one turned on the basics. Stigs used Microsoft 365 as a pointed example. Millions of businesses are running on it with DMARC turned off, default configurations untouched, Copilot layered on top, and not a single CIS Benchmark policy applied. "Every client is vulnerable," he said. "Not just 10% of clients. Every client."That's a striking statement. It's also, if you've been paying attention to breach headlines, not a surprising one.The AI angle adds a new and almost darkly comedic wrinkle. Vibe coding — the practice of using AI tools like Cursor or Claude to generate production-ready code at speed — has given entry-level developers intermediate-level output. Which sounds great, until you realize that the AI models many of them leaned on were trained on outdated, sometimes vulnerable data. Stigs described visiting multiple clients with nearly identical security weaknesses, all tracing back to the same ChatGPT-generated setup instructions. "You and your neighbor did the same thing," he told one client. That's not just a funny anecdote. It's a warning about what happens when an entire industry bootstraps its infrastructure from the same flawed source.And yet, Stigs isn't anti-AI. He uses it every day. He just sees it with the clarity of someone who also finds the holes it leaves behind. His prediction for the near future: a massive wave of secure code review requests, as companies start reckoning with the vibe-coded backlog they've been quietly accumulating. AppSec is about to have a very good year.Looking forward, White Knight Labs is watching the growing intersection of private sector expertise and government infrastructure testing with particular interest. Critical infrastructure in America, long overdue for rigorous physical and embedded testing, is starting to receive that attention. Stigs and his team are already in the room.What makes White Knight Labs different isn't just technical skill — it's the ability to communicate what they find in language that actually lands. In an industry full of reports that gather dust, that matters. The best penetration test in the world is useless if no one acts on it.The door is open. It's been open for years. The question is who you call to finally lock it.To learn more about White Knight Labs, visit their website or reach out directly. Listen to the full conversation on ITSPmagazine.GUESTJohn StigerwaltFounder at White Knight Labs | Red Team Operations Leaderhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/john-stigerwalt-90a9b4110/RESOURCESWhite Knight Labs:  https://whiteknightlabs.com_____________________________________________________________Are you interested in telling your story?▶︎ Full Length Brand Story: https://www.studioc60.com/content-creation#full▶︎ Brand Spotlight Story: https://www.studioc60.com/content-creation#spotlight▶︎ Brand Highlight Story: https://www.studioc60.com/content-creation#highlight Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Tickets for AIEi Miami and AIE Europe are live, with first wave speakers announced!From pioneering software-defined networking to backing many of the most aggressive AI model companies of this cycle, Martin Casado and Sarah Wang sit at the center of the capital, compute, and talent arms race reshaping the tech industry. As partners at a16z investing across infrastructure and growth, they've watched venture and growth blur, model labs turn dollars into capability at unprecedented speed, and startups raise nine-figure rounds before monetization.Martin and Sarah join us to unpack the new financing playbook for AI: why today's rounds are really compute contracts in disguise, how the “raise → train → ship → raise bigger” flywheel works, and whether foundation model companies can outspend the entire app ecosystem built on top of them. They also share what's underhyped (boring enterprise software), what's overheated (talent wars and compensation spirals), and the two radically different futures they see for AI's market structure.We discuss:* Martin's “two futures” fork: infinite fragmentation and new software categories vs. a small oligopoly of general models that consume everything above them* The capital flywheel: how model labs translate funding directly into capability gains, then into revenue growth measured in weeks, not years* Why venture and growth have merged: $100M–$1B hybrid rounds, strategic investors, compute negotiations, and complex deal structures* The AGI vs. product tension: allocating scarce GPUs between long-term research and near-term revenue flywheels* Whether frontier labs can out-raise and outspend the entire app ecosystem built on top of their APIs* Why today's talent wars ($10M+ comp packages, $B acqui-hires) are breaking early-stage founder math* Cursor as a case study: building up from the app layer while training down into your own models* Why “boring” enterprise software may be the most underinvested opportunity in the AI mania* Hardware and robotics: why the ChatGPT moment hasn't yet arrived for robots and what would need to change* World Labs and generative 3D: bringing the marginal cost of 3D scene creation down by orders of magnitude* Why public AI discourse is often wildly disconnected from boardroom reality and how founders should navigate the noiseShow Notes:* “Where Value Will Accrue in AI: Martin Casado & Sarah Wang” - a16z show* “Jack Altman & Martin Casado on the Future of Venture Capital”* World Labs—Martin Casado• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martincasado/• X: https://x.com/martin_casadoSarah Wang• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-wang-59b96a7• X: https://x.com/sarahdingwanga16z• https://a16z.com/Timestamps00:00:00 – Intro: Live from a16z00:01:20 – The New AI Funding Model: Venture + Growth Collide00:03:19 – Circular Funding, Demand & “No Dark GPUs”00:05:24 – Infrastructure vs Apps: The Lines Blur00:06:24 – The Capital Flywheel: Raise → Train → Ship → Raise Bigger00:09:39 – Can Frontier Labs Outspend the Entire App Ecosystem?00:11:24 – Character AI & The AGI vs Product Dilemma00:14:39 – Talent Wars, $10M Engineers & Founder Anxiety00:17:33 – What's Underinvested? The Case for “Boring” Software00:19:29 – Robotics, Hardware & Why It's Hard to Win00:22:42 – Custom ASICs & The $1B Training Run Economics00:24:23 – American Dynamism, Geography & AI Power Centers00:26:48 – How AI Is Changing the Investor Workflow (Claude Cowork)00:29:12 – Two Futures of AI: Infinite Expansion or Oligopoly?00:32:48 – If You Can Raise More Than Your Ecosystem, You Win00:34:27 – Are All Tasks AGI-Complete? Coding as the Test Case00:38:55 – Cursor & The Power of the App Layer00:44:05 – World Labs, Spatial Intelligence & 3D Foundation Models00:47:20 – Thinking Machines, Founder Drama & Media Narratives00:52:30 – Where Long-Term Power Accrues in the AI StackTranscriptLatent.Space - Inside AI's $10B+ Capital Flywheel — Martin Casado & Sarah Wang of a16z[00:00:00] Welcome to Latent Space (Live from a16z) + Meet the Guests[00:00:00] Alessio: Hey everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space podcast, live from a 16 z. Uh, this is Alessio founder Kernel Lance, and I'm joined by Twix, editor of Latent Space.[00:00:08] swyx: Hey, hey, hey. Uh, and we're so glad to be on with you guys. Also a top AI podcast, uh, Martin Cado and Sarah Wang. Welcome, very[00:00:16] Martin Casado: happy to be here and welcome.[00:00:17] swyx: Yes, uh, we love this office. We love what you've done with the place. Uh, the new logo is everywhere now. It's, it's still getting, takes a while to get used to, but it reminds me of like sort of a callback to a more ambitious age, which I think is kind of[00:00:31] Martin Casado: definitely makes a statement.[00:00:33] swyx: Yeah.[00:00:34] Martin Casado: Not quite sure what that statement is, but it makes a statement.[00:00:37] swyx: Uh, Martin, I go back with you to Netlify.[00:00:40] Martin Casado: Yep.[00:00:40] swyx: Uh, and, uh, you know, you create a software defined networking and all, all that stuff people can read up on your background. Yep. Sarah, I'm newer to you. Uh, you, you sort of started working together on AI infrastructure stuff.[00:00:51] Sarah Wang: That's right. Yeah. Seven, seven years ago now.[00:00:53] Martin Casado: Best growth investor in the entire industry.[00:00:55] swyx: Oh, say[00:00:56] Martin Casado: more hands down there is, there is. [00:01:00] I mean, when it comes to AI companies, Sarah, I think has done the most kind of aggressive, um, investment thesis around AI models, right? So, worked for Nom Ja, Mira Ia, FEI Fey, and so just these frontier, kind of like large AI models.[00:01:15] I think, you know, Sarah's been the, the broadest investor. Is that fair?[00:01:20] Venture vs. Growth in the Frontier Model Era[00:01:20] Sarah Wang: No, I, well, I was gonna say, I think it's been a really interesting tag, tag team actually just ‘cause the, a lot of these big C deals, not only are they raising a lot of money, um, it's still a tech founder bet, which obviously is inherently early stage.[00:01:33] But the resources,[00:01:36] Martin Casado: so many, I[00:01:36] Sarah Wang: was gonna say the resources one, they just grow really quickly. But then two, the resources that they need day one are kind of growth scale. So I, the hybrid tag team that we have is. Quite effective, I think,[00:01:46] Martin Casado: what is growth these days? You know, you don't wake up if it's less than a billion or like, it's, it's actually, it's actually very like, like no, it's a very interesting time in investing because like, you know, take like the character around, right?[00:01:59] These tend to [00:02:00] be like pre monetization, but the dollars are large enough that you need to have a larger fund and the analysis. You know, because you've got lots of users. ‘cause this stuff has such high demand requires, you know, more of a number sophistication. And so most of these deals, whether it's US or other firms on these large model companies, are like this hybrid between venture growth.[00:02:18] Sarah Wang: Yeah. Total. And I think, you know, stuff like BD for example, you wouldn't usually need BD when you were seed stage trying to get market biz Devrel. Biz Devrel, exactly. Okay. But like now, sorry, I'm,[00:02:27] swyx: I'm not familiar. What, what, what does biz Devrel mean for a venture fund? Because I know what biz Devrel means for a company.[00:02:31] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:02:32] Compute Deals, Strategics, and the ‘Circular Funding' Question[00:02:32] Sarah Wang: You know, so a, a good example is, I mean, we talk about buying compute, but there's a huge negotiation involved there in terms of, okay, do you get equity for the compute? What, what sort of partner are you looking at? Is there a go-to market arm to that? Um, and these are just things on this scale, hundreds of millions, you know, maybe.[00:02:50] Six months into the inception of a company, you just wouldn't have to negotiate these deals before.[00:02:54] Martin Casado: Yeah. These large rounds are very complex now. Like in the past, if you did a series A [00:03:00] or a series B, like whatever, you're writing a 20 to a $60 million check and you call it a day. Now you normally have financial investors and strategic investors, and then the strategic portion always still goes with like these kind of large compute contracts, which can take months to do.[00:03:13] And so it's, it's very different ties. I've been doing this for 10 years. It's the, I've never seen anything like this.[00:03:19] swyx: Yeah. Do you have worries about the circular funding from so disease strategics?[00:03:24] Martin Casado: I mean, listen, as long as the demand is there, like the demand is there. Like the problem with the internet is the demand wasn't there.[00:03:29] swyx: Exactly. All right. This, this is like the, the whole pyramid scheme bubble thing, where like, as long as you mark to market on like the notional value of like, these deals, fine, but like once it starts to chip away, it really Well[00:03:41] Martin Casado: no, like as, as, as, as long as there's demand. I mean, you know, this, this is like a lot of these sound bites have already become kind of cliches, but they're worth saying it.[00:03:47] Right? Like during the internet days, like we were. Um, raising money to put fiber in the ground that wasn't used. And that's a problem, right? Because now you actually have a supply overhang.[00:03:58] swyx: Mm-hmm.[00:03:59] Martin Casado: And even in the, [00:04:00] the time of the, the internet, like the supply and, and bandwidth overhang, even as massive as it was in, as massive as the crash was only lasted about four years.[00:04:09] But we don't have a supply overhang. Like there's no dark GPUs, right? I mean, and so, you know, circular or not, I mean, you know, if, if someone invests in a company that, um. You know, they'll actually use the GPUs. And on the other side of it is the, is the ask for customer. So I I, I think it's a different time.[00:04:25] Sarah Wang: I think the other piece, maybe just to add onto this, and I'm gonna quote Martine in front of him, but this is probably also a unique time in that. For the first time, you can actually trace dollars to outcomes. Yeah, right. Provided that scaling laws are, are holding, um, and capabilities are actually moving forward.[00:04:40] Because if you can put translate dollars into capabilities, uh, a capability improvement, there's demand there to martine's point. But if that somehow breaks, you know, obviously that's an important assumption in this whole thing to make it work. But you know, instead of investing dollars into sales and marketing, you're, you're investing into r and d to get to the capability, um, you know, increase.[00:04:59] And [00:05:00] that's sort of been the demand driver because. Once there's an unlock there, people are willing to pay for it.[00:05:05] Alessio: Yeah.[00:05:06] Blurring Lines: Models as Infra + Apps, and the New Fundraising Flywheel[00:05:06] Alessio: Is there any difference in how you built the portfolio now that some of your growth companies are, like the infrastructure of the early stage companies, like, you know, OpenAI is now the same size as some of the cloud providers were early on.[00:05:16] Like what does that look like? Like how much information can you feed off each other between the, the two?[00:05:24] Martin Casado: There's so many lines that are being crossed right now, or blurred. Right. So we already talked about venture and growth. Another one that's being blurred is between infrastructure and apps, right? So like what is a model company?[00:05:35] Mm-hmm. Like, it's clearly infrastructure, right? Because it's like, you know, it's doing kind of core r and d. It's a horizontal platform, but it's also an app because it's um, uh, touches the users directly. And then of course. You know, the, the, the growth of these is just so high. And so I actually think you're just starting to see a, a, a new financing strategy emerge and, you know, we've had to adapt as a result of that.[00:05:59] And [00:06:00] so there's been a lot of changes. Um, you're right that these companies become platform companies very quickly. You've got ecosystem build out. So none of this is necessarily new, but the timescales of which it's happened is pretty phenomenal. And the way we'd normally cut lines before is blurred a little bit, but.[00:06:16] But that, that, that said, I mean, a lot of it also just does feel like things that we've seen in the past, like cloud build out the internet build out as well.[00:06:24] Sarah Wang: Yeah. Um, yeah, I think it's interesting, uh, I don't know if you guys would agree with this, but it feels like the emerging strategy is, and this builds off of your other question, um.[00:06:33] You raise money for compute, you pour that or you, you pour the money into compute, you get some sort of breakthrough. You funnel the breakthrough into your vertically integrated application. That could be chat GBT, that could be cloud code, you know, whatever it is. You massively gain share and get users.[00:06:49] Maybe you're even subsidizing at that point. Um, depending on your strategy. You raise money at the peak momentum and then you repeat, rinse and repeat. Um, and so. And that wasn't [00:07:00] true even two years ago, I think. Mm-hmm. And so it's sort of to your, just tying it to fundraising strategy, right? There's a, and hiring strategy.[00:07:07] All of these are tied, I think the lines are blurring even more today where everyone is, and they, but of course these companies all have API businesses and so they're these, these frenemy lines that are getting blurred in that a lot of, I mean, they have billions of dollars of API revenue, right? And so there are customers there.[00:07:23] But they're competing on the app layer.[00:07:24] Martin Casado: Yeah. So this is a really, really important point. So I, I would say for sure, venture and growth, that line is blurry app and infrastructure. That line is blurry. Um, but I don't think that that changes our practice so much. But like where the very open questions are like, does this layer in the same way.[00:07:43] Compute traditionally has like during the cloud is like, you know, like whatever, somebody wins one layer, but then another whole set of companies wins another layer. But that might not, might not be the case here. It may be the case that you actually can't verticalize on the token string. Like you can't build an app like it, it necessarily goes down just because there are no [00:08:00] abstractions.[00:08:00] So those are kinda the bigger existential questions we ask. Another thing that is very different this time than in the history of computer sciences is. In the past, if you raised money, then you basically had to wait for engineering to catch up. Which famously doesn't scale like the mythical mammoth. It take a very long time.[00:08:18] But like that's not the case here. Like a model company can raise money and drop a model in a, in a year, and it's better, right? And, and it does it with a team of 20 people or 10 people. So this type of like money entering a company and then producing something that has demand and growth right away and using that to raise more money is a very different capital flywheel than we've ever seen before.[00:08:39] And I think everybody's trying to understand what the consequences are. So I think it's less about like. Big companies and growth and this, and more about these more systemic questions that we actually don't have answers to.[00:08:49] Alessio: Yeah, like at Kernel Labs, one of our ideas is like if you had unlimited money to spend productively to turn tokens into products, like the whole early stage [00:09:00] market is very different because today you're investing X amount of capital to win a deal because of price structure and whatnot, and you're kind of pot committing.[00:09:07] Yeah. To a certain strategy for a certain amount of time. Yeah. But if you could like iteratively spin out companies and products and just throw, I, I wanna spend a million dollar of inference today and get a product out tomorrow.[00:09:18] swyx: Yeah.[00:09:19] Alessio: Like, we should get to the point where like the friction of like token to product is so low that you can do this and then you can change the Right, the early stage venture model to be much more iterative.[00:09:30] And then every round is like either 100 k of inference or like a hundred million from a 16 Z. There's no, there's no like $8 million C round anymore. Right.[00:09:38] When Frontier Labs Outspend the Entire App Ecosystem[00:09:38] Martin Casado: But, but, but, but there's a, there's a, the, an industry structural question that we don't know the answer to, which involves the frontier models, which is, let's take.[00:09:48] Anthropic it. Let's say Anthropic has a state-of-the-art model that has some large percentage of market share. And let's say that, uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, a company's building smaller models [00:10:00] that, you know, use the bigger model in the background, open 4.5, but they add value on top of that. Now, if Anthropic can raise three times more.[00:10:10] Every subsequent round, they probably can raise more money than the entire app ecosystem that's built on top of it. And if that's the case, they can expand beyond everything built on top of it. It's like imagine like a star that's just kind of expanding, so there could be a systemic. There could be a, a systemic situation where the soda models can raise so much money that they can out pay anybody that bills on top of ‘em, which would be something I don't think we've ever seen before just because we were so bottlenecked in engineering, and this is a very open question.[00:10:41] swyx: Yeah. It's, it is almost like bitter lesson applied to the startup industry.[00:10:45] Martin Casado: Yeah, a hundred percent. It literally becomes an issue of like raise capital, turn that directly into growth. Use that to raise three times more. Exactly. And if you can keep doing that, you literally can outspend any company that's built the, not any company.[00:10:57] You can outspend the aggregate of companies on top of [00:11:00] you and therefore you'll necessarily take their share, which is crazy.[00:11:02] swyx: Would you say that kind of happens in character? Is that the, the sort of postmortem on. What happened?[00:11:10] Sarah Wang: Um,[00:11:10] Martin Casado: no.[00:11:12] Sarah Wang: Yeah, because I think so,[00:11:13] swyx: I mean the actual postmortem is, he wanted to go back to Google.[00:11:15] Exactly. But like[00:11:18] Martin Casado: that's another difference that[00:11:19] Sarah Wang: you said[00:11:21] Martin Casado: it. We should talk, we should actually talk about that.[00:11:22] swyx: Yeah,[00:11:22] Sarah Wang: that's[00:11:23] swyx: Go for it. Take it. Take,[00:11:23] Sarah Wang: yeah.[00:11:24] Character.AI, Founder Goals (AGI vs Product), and GPU Allocation Tradeoffs[00:11:24] Sarah Wang: I was gonna say, I think, um. The, the, the character thing raises actually a different issue, which actually the Frontier Labs will face as well. So we'll see how they handle it.[00:11:34] But, um, so we invest in character in January, 2023, which feels like eons ago, I mean, three years ago. Feels like lifetimes ago. But, um, and then they, uh, did the IP licensing deal with Google in August, 2020. Uh, four. And so, um, you know, at the time, no, you know, he's talked publicly about this, right? He wanted to Google wouldn't let him put out products in the world.[00:11:56] That's obviously changed drastically. But, um, he went to go do [00:12:00] that. Um, but he had a product attached. The goal was, I mean, it's Nome Shair, he wanted to get to a GI. That was always his personal goal. But, you know, I think through collecting data, right, and this sort of very human use case, that the character product.[00:12:13] Originally was and still is, um, was one of the vehicles to do that. Um, I think the real reason that, you know. I if you think about the, the stress that any company feels before, um, you ultimately going one way or the other is sort of this a GI versus product. Um, and I think a lot of the big, I think, you know, opening eyes, feeling that, um, anthropic if they haven't started, you know, felt it, certainly given the success of their products, they may start to feel that soon.[00:12:39] And the real. I think there's real trade-offs, right? It's like how many, when you think about GPUs, that's a limited resource. Where do you allocate the GPUs? Is it toward the product? Is it toward new re research? Right? Is it, or long-term research, is it toward, um, n you know, near to midterm research? And so, um, in a case where you're resource constrained, um, [00:13:00] of course there's this fundraising game you can play, right?[00:13:01] But the fund, the market was very different back in 2023 too. Um. I think the best researchers in the world have this dilemma of, okay, I wanna go all in on a GI, but it's the product usage revenue flywheel that keeps the revenue in the house to power all the GPUs to get to a GI. And so it does make, um, you know, I think it sets up an interesting dilemma for any startup that has trouble raising up until that level, right?[00:13:27] And certainly if you don't have that progress, you can't continue this fly, you know, fundraising flywheel.[00:13:32] Martin Casado: I would say that because, ‘cause we're keeping track of all of the things that are different, right? Like, you know, venture growth and uh, app infra and one of the ones is definitely the personalities of the founders.[00:13:45] It's just very different this time I've been. Been doing this for a decade and I've been doing startups for 20 years. And so, um, I mean a lot of people start this to do a GI and we've never had like a unified North star that I recall in the same [00:14:00] way. Like people built companies to start companies in the past.[00:14:02] Like that was what it was. Like I would create an internet company, I would create infrastructure company, like it's kind of more engineering builders and this is kind of a different. You know, mentality. And some companies have harnessed that incredibly well because their direction is so obviously on the path to what somebody would consider a GI, but others have not.[00:14:20] And so like there is always this tension with personnel. And so I think we're seeing more kind of founder movement.[00:14:27] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:14:27] Martin Casado: You know, as a fraction of founders than we've ever seen. I mean, maybe since like, I don't know the time of like Shockly and the trade DUR aid or something like that. Way back in the beginning of the industry, I, it's a very, very.[00:14:38] Unusual time of personnel.[00:14:39] Sarah Wang: Totally.[00:14:40] Talent Wars, Mega-Comp, and the Rise of Acquihire M&A[00:14:40] Sarah Wang: And it, I think it's exacerbated by the fact that talent wars, I mean, every industry has talent wars, but not at this magnitude, right? No. Yeah. Very rarely can you see someone get poached for $5 billion. That's hard to compete with. And then secondly, if you're a founder in ai, you could fart and it would be on the front page of, you know, the information these days.[00:14:59] And so there's [00:15:00] sort of this fishbowl effect that I think adds to the deep anxiety that, that these AI founders are feeling.[00:15:06] Martin Casado: Hmm.[00:15:06] swyx: Uh, yes. I mean, just on, uh, briefly comment on the founder, uh, the sort of. Talent wars thing. I feel like 2025 was just like a blip. Like I, I don't know if we'll see that again.[00:15:17] ‘cause meta built the team. Like, I don't know if, I think, I think they're kind of done and like, who's gonna pay more than meta? I, I don't know.[00:15:23] Martin Casado: I, I agree. So it feels so, it feel, it feels this way to me too. It's like, it is like, basically Zuckerberg kind of came out swinging and then now he's kind of back to building.[00:15:30] Yeah,[00:15:31] swyx: yeah. You know, you gotta like pay up to like assemble team to rush the job, whatever. But then now, now you like you, you made your choices and now they got a ship.[00:15:38] Martin Casado: I mean, the, the o other side of that is like, you know, like we're, we're actually in the job hiring market. We've got 600 people here. I hire all the time.[00:15:44] I've got three open recs if anybody's interested, that's listening to this for investor. Yeah, on, on the team, like on the investing side of the team, like, and, um, a lot of the people we talk to have acting, you know, active, um, offers for 10 million a year or something like that. And like, you know, and we pay really, [00:16:00] really well.[00:16:00] And just to see what's out on the market is really, is really remarkable. And so I would just say it's actually, so you're right, like the really flashy one, like I will get someone for, you know, a billion dollars, but like the inflated, um, uh, trickles down. Yeah, it is still very active today. I mean,[00:16:18] Sarah Wang: yeah, you could be an L five and get an offer in the tens of millions.[00:16:22] Okay. Yeah. Easily. Yeah. It's so I think you're right that it felt like a blip. I hope you're right. Um, but I think it's been, the steady state is now, I think got pulled up. Yeah. Yeah. I'll pull up for[00:16:31] Martin Casado: sure. Yeah.[00:16:32] Alessio: Yeah. And I think that's breaking the early stage founder math too. I think before a lot of people would be like, well, maybe I should just go be a founder instead of like getting paid.[00:16:39] Yeah. 800 KA million at Google. But if I'm getting paid. Five, 6 million. That's different but[00:16:45] Martin Casado: on. But on the other hand, there's more strategic money than we've ever seen historically, right? Mm-hmm. And so, yep. The economics, the, the, the, the calculus on the economics is very different in a number of ways. And, uh, it's crazy.[00:16:58] It's cra it's causing like a, [00:17:00] a, a, a ton of change in confusion in the market. Some very positive, sub negative, like, so for example, the other side of the, um. The co-founder, like, um, acquisition, you know, mark Zuckerberg poaching someone for a lot of money is like, we were actually seeing historic amount of m and a for basically acquihires, right?[00:17:20] That you like, you know, really good outcomes from a venture perspective that are effective acquihires, right? So I would say it's probably net positive from the investment standpoint, even though it seems from the headlines to be very disruptive in a negative way.[00:17:33] Alessio: Yeah.[00:17:33] What's Underfunded: Boring Software, Robotics Skepticism, and Custom Silicon Economics[00:17:33] Alessio: Um, let's talk maybe about what's not being invested in, like maybe some interesting ideas that you would see more people build or it, it seems in a way, you know, as ycs getting more popular, it's like access getting more popular.[00:17:47] There's a startup school path that a lot of founders take and they know what's hot in the VC circles and they know what gets funded. Uh, and there's maybe not as much risk appetite for. Things outside of that. Um, I'm curious if you feel [00:18:00] like that's true and what are maybe, uh, some of the areas, uh, that you think are under discussed?[00:18:06] Martin Casado: I mean, I actually think that we've taken our eye off the ball in a lot of like, just traditional, you know, software companies. Um, so like, I mean. You know, I think right now there's almost a barbell, like you're like the hot thing on X, you're deep tech.[00:18:21] swyx: Mm-hmm.[00:18:22] Martin Casado: Right. But I, you know, I feel like there's just kind of a long, you know, list of like good.[00:18:28] Good companies that will be around for a long time in very large markets. Say you're building a database, you know, say you're building, um, you know, kind of monitoring or logging or tooling or whatever. There's some good companies out there right now, but like, they have a really hard time getting, um, the attention of investors.[00:18:43] And it's almost become a meme, right? Which is like, if you're not basically growing from zero to a hundred in a year, you're not interesting, which is just, is the silliest thing to say. I mean, think of yourself as like an introvert person, like, like your personal money, right? Mm-hmm. So. Your personal money, will you put it in the stock market at 7% or you put it in this company growing five x in a very large [00:19:00] market?[00:19:00] Of course you can put it in the company five x. So it's just like we say these stupid things, like if you're not going from zero to a hundred, but like those, like who knows what the margins of those are mean. Clearly these are good investments. True for anybody, right? True. Like our LPs want whatever.[00:19:12] Three x net over, you know, the life cycle of a fund, right? So a, a company in a big market growing five X is a great investment. We'd, everybody would be happy with these returns, but we've got this kind of mania on these, these strong growths. And so I would say that that's probably the most underinvested sector.[00:19:28] Right now.[00:19:29] swyx: Boring software, boring enterprise software.[00:19:31] Martin Casado: Traditional. Really good company.[00:19:33] swyx: No, no AI here.[00:19:34] Martin Casado: No. Like boring. Well, well, the AI of course is pulling them into use cases. Yeah, but that's not what they're, they're not on the token path, right? Yeah. Let's just say that like they're software, but they're not on the token path.[00:19:41] Like these are like they're great investments from any definition except for like random VC on Twitter saying VC on x, saying like, it's not growing fast enough. What do you[00:19:52] Sarah Wang: think? Yeah, maybe I'll answer a slightly different. Question, but adjacent to what you asked, um, which is maybe an area that we're not, uh, investing [00:20:00] right now that I think is a question and we're spending a lot of time in regardless of whether we pull the trigger or not.[00:20:05] Um, and it would probably be on the hardware side, actually. Robotics, right? And the robotics side. Robotics. Right. Which is, it's, I don't wanna say that it's not getting funding ‘cause it's clearly, uh, it's, it's sort of non-consensus to almost not invest in robotics at this point. But, um, we spent a lot of time in that space and I think for us, we just haven't seen the chat GPT moment.[00:20:22] Happen on the hardware side. Um, and the funding going into it feels like it's already. Taking that for granted.[00:20:30] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. But we also went through the drone, you know, um, there's a zip line right, right out there. What's that? Oh yeah, there's a zip line. Yeah. What the drone, what the av And like one of the takeaways is when it comes to hardware, um, most companies will end up verticalizing.[00:20:46] Like if you're. If you're investing in a robot company for an A for agriculture, you're investing in an ag company. ‘cause that's the competition and that's surprising. And that's supply chain. And if you're doing it for mining, that's mining. And so the ad team does a lot of that type of stuff ‘cause they actually set up to [00:21:00] diligence that type of work.[00:21:01] But for like horizontal technology investing, there's very little when it comes to robots just because it's so fit for, for purpose. And so we kinda like to look at software. Solutions or horizontal solutions like applied intuition. Clearly from the AV wave deep map, clearly from the AV wave, I would say scale AI was actually a horizontal one for That's fair, you know, for robotics early on.[00:21:23] And so that sort of thing we're very, very interested. But the actual like robot interacting with the world is probably better for different team. Agree.[00:21:30] Alessio: Yeah, I'm curious who these teams are supposed to be that invest in them. I feel like everybody's like, yeah, robotics, it's important and like people should invest in it.[00:21:38] But then when you look at like the numbers, like the capital requirements early on versus like the moment of, okay, this is actually gonna work. Let's keep investing. That seems really hard to predict in a way that is not,[00:21:49] Martin Casado: I think co, CO two, kla, gc, I mean these are all invested in in Harvard companies. He just, you know, and [00:22:00] listen, I mean, it could work this time for sure.[00:22:01] Right? I mean if Elon's doing it, he's like, right. Just, just the fact that Elon's doing it means that there's gonna be a lot of capital and a lot of attempts for a long period of time. So that alone maybe suggests that we should just be investing in robotics just ‘cause you have this North star who's Elon with a humanoid and that's gonna like basically willing into being an industry.[00:22:17] Um, but we've just historically found like. We're a huge believer that this is gonna happen. We just don't feel like we're in a good position to diligence these things. ‘cause again, robotics companies tend to be vertical. You really have to understand the market they're being sold into. Like that's like that competitive equilibrium with a human being is what's important.[00:22:34] It's not like the core tech and like we're kind of more horizontal core tech type investors. And this is Sarah and I. Yeah, the ad team is different. They can actually do these types of things.[00:22:42] swyx: Uh, just to clarify, AD stands for[00:22:44] Martin Casado: American Dynamism.[00:22:45] swyx: Alright. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, I actually, I do have a related question that, first of all, I wanna acknowledge also just on the, on the chip side.[00:22:51] Yeah. I, I recall a podcast that where you were on, i, I, I think it was the a CC podcast, uh, about two or three years ago where you, where you suddenly said [00:23:00] something, which really stuck in my head about how at some point, at some point kind of scale it makes sense to. Build a custom aic Yes. For per run.[00:23:07] Martin Casado: Yes.[00:23:07] It's crazy. Yeah.[00:23:09] swyx: We're here and I think you, you estimated 500 billion, uh, something.[00:23:12] Martin Casado: No, no, no. A billion, a billion dollar training run of $1 billion training run. It makes sense to actually do a custom meic if you can do it in time. The question now is timelines. Yeah, but not money because just, just, just rough math.[00:23:22] If it's a billion dollar training. Then the inference for that model has to be over a billion, otherwise it won't be solvent. So let's assume it's, if you could save 20%, which you could save much more than that with an ASIC 20%, that's $200 million. You can tape out a chip for $200 million. Right? So now you can literally like justify economically, not timeline wise.[00:23:41] That's a different issue. An ASIC per model, which[00:23:44] swyx: is because that, that's how much we leave on the table every single time. We, we, we do like generic Nvidia.[00:23:48] Martin Casado: Exactly. Exactly. No, it, it is actually much more than that. You could probably get, you know, a factor of two, which would be 500 million.[00:23:54] swyx: Typical MFU would be like 50.[00:23:55] Yeah, yeah. And that's good.[00:23:57] Martin Casado: Exactly. Yeah. Hundred[00:23:57] swyx: percent. Um, so, so, yeah, and I mean, and I [00:24:00] just wanna acknowledge like, here we are in, in, in 2025 and opening eyes confirming like Broadcom and all the other like custom silicon deals, which is incredible. I, I think that, uh, you know, speaking about ad there's, there's a really like interesting tie in that obviously you guys are hit on, which is like these sort, this sort of like America first movement or like sort of re industrialized here.[00:24:17] Yeah. Uh, move TSMC here, if that's possible. Um, how much overlap is there from ad[00:24:23] Martin Casado: Yeah.[00:24:23] swyx: To, I guess, growth and, uh, investing in particularly like, you know, US AI companies that are strongly bounded by their compute.[00:24:32] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I, I would view, I would view AD as more as a market segmentation than like a mission, right?[00:24:37] So the market segmentation is, it has kind of regulatory compliance issues or government, you know, sale or it deals with like hardware. I mean, they're just set up to, to, to, to, to. To diligence those types of companies. So it's a more of a market segmentation thing. I would say the entire firm. You know, which has been since it is been intercepted, you know, has geographical biases, right?[00:24:58] I mean, for the longest time we're like, you [00:25:00] know, bay Area is gonna be like, great, where the majority of the dollars go. Yeah. And, and listen, there, there's actually a lot of compounding effects for having a geographic bias. Right. You know, everybody's in the same place. You've got an ecosystem, you're there, you've got presence, you've got a network.[00:25:12] Um, and, uh, I mean, I would say the Bay area's very much back. You know, like I, I remember during pre COVID, like it was like almost Crypto had kind of. Pulled startups away. Miami from the Bay Area. Miami, yeah. Yeah. New York was, you know, because it's so close to finance, came up like Los Angeles had a moment ‘cause it was so close to consumer, but now it's kind of come back here.[00:25:29] And so I would say, you know, we tend to be very Bay area focused historically, even though of course we've asked all over the world. And then I would say like, if you take the ring out, you know, one more, it's gonna be the US of course, because we know it very well. And then one more is gonna be getting us and its allies and Yeah.[00:25:44] And it goes from there.[00:25:45] Sarah Wang: Yeah,[00:25:45] Martin Casado: sorry.[00:25:46] Sarah Wang: No, no. I agree. I think from a, but I think from the intern that that's sort of like where the companies are headquartered. Maybe your questions on supply chain and customer base. Uh, I, I would say our customers are, are, our companies are fairly international from that perspective.[00:25:59] Like they're selling [00:26:00] globally, right? They have global supply chains in some cases.[00:26:03] Martin Casado: I would say also the stickiness is very different.[00:26:05] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:26:05] Martin Casado: Historically between venture and growth, like there's so much company building in venture, so much so like hiring the next PM. Introducing the customer, like all of that stuff.[00:26:15] Like of course we're just gonna be stronger where we have our network and we've been doing business for 20 years. I've been in the Bay Area for 25 years, so clearly I'm just more effective here than I would be somewhere else. Um, where I think, I think for some of the later stage rounds, the companies don't need that much help.[00:26:30] They're already kind of pretty mature historically, so like they can kind of be everywhere. So there's kind of less of that stickiness. This is different in the AI time. I mean, Sarah is now the, uh, chief of staff of like half the AI companies in, uh, in the Bay Area right now. She's like, ops Ninja Biz, Devrel, BizOps.[00:26:48] swyx: Are, are you, are you finding much AI automation in your work? Like what, what is your stack.[00:26:53] Sarah Wang: Oh my, in my personal stack.[00:26:54] swyx: I mean, because like, uh, by the way, it's the, the, the reason for this is it is triggering, uh, yeah. We, like, I'm hiring [00:27:00] ops, ops people. Um, a lot of ponders I know are also hiring ops people and I'm just, you know, it's opportunity Since you're, you're also like basically helping out with ops with a lot of companies.[00:27:09] What are people doing these days? Because it's still very manual as far as I can tell.[00:27:13] Sarah Wang: Hmm. Yeah. I think the things that we help with are pretty network based, um, in that. It's sort of like, Hey, how do do I shortcut this process? Well, let's connect you to the right person. So there's not quite an AI workflow for that.[00:27:26] I will say as a growth investor, Claude Cowork is pretty interesting. Yeah. Like for the first time, you can actually get one shot data analysis. Right. Which, you know, if you're gonna do a customer database, analyze a cohort retention, right? That's just stuff that you had to do by hand before. And our team, the other, it was like midnight and the three of us were playing with Claude Cowork.[00:27:47] We gave it a raw file. Boom. Perfectly accurate. We checked the numbers. It was amazing. That was my like, aha moment. That sounds so boring. But you know, that's, that's the kind of thing that a growth investor is like, [00:28:00] you know, slaving away on late at night. Um, done in a few seconds.[00:28:03] swyx: Yeah. You gotta wonder what the whole, like, philanthropic labs, which is like their new sort of products studio.[00:28:10] Yeah. What would that be worth as an independent, uh, startup? You know, like a[00:28:14] Martin Casado: lot.[00:28:14] Sarah Wang: Yeah, true.[00:28:16] swyx: Yeah. You[00:28:16] Martin Casado: gotta hand it to them. They've been executing incredibly well.[00:28:19] swyx: Yeah. I, I mean, to me, like, you know, philanthropic, like building on cloud code, I think, uh, it makes sense to me the, the real. Um, pedal to the metal, whatever the, the, the phrase is, is when they start coming after consumer with, uh, against OpenAI and like that is like red alert at Open ai.[00:28:35] Oh, I[00:28:35] Martin Casado: think they've been pretty clear. They're enterprise focused.[00:28:37] swyx: They have been, but like they've been free. Here's[00:28:40] Martin Casado: care publicly,[00:28:40] swyx: it's enterprise focused. It's coding. Right. Yeah.[00:28:43] AI Labs vs Startups: Disruption, Undercutting & the Innovator's Dilemma[00:28:43] swyx: And then, and, but here's cloud, cloud, cowork, and, and here's like, well, we, uh, they, apparently they're running Instagram ads for Claudia.[00:28:50] I, on, you know, for, for people on, I get them all the time. Right. And so, like,[00:28:54] Martin Casado: uh,[00:28:54] swyx: it, it's kind of like this, the disruption thing of, uh, you know. Mo Open has been doing, [00:29:00] consumer been doing the, just pursuing general intelligence in every mo modality, and here's a topic that only focus on this thing, but now they're sort of undercutting and doing the whole innovator's dilemma thing on like everything else.[00:29:11] Martin Casado: It's very[00:29:11] swyx: interesting.[00:29:12] Martin Casado: Yeah, I mean there's, there's a very open que so for me there's like, do you know that meme where there's like the guy in the path and there's like a path this way? There's a path this way. Like one which way Western man. Yeah. Yeah.[00:29:23] Two Futures for AI: Infinite Market vs AGI Oligopoly[00:29:23] Martin Casado: And for me, like, like all the entire industry kind of like hinges on like two potential futures.[00:29:29] So in, in one potential future, um, the market is infinitely large. There's perverse economies of scale. ‘cause as soon as you put a model out there, like it kind of sublimates and all the other models catch up and like, it's just like software's being rewritten and fractured all over the place and there's tons of upside and it just grows.[00:29:48] And then there's another path which is like, well. Maybe these models actually generalize really well, and all you have to do is train them with three times more money. That's all you have to [00:30:00] do, and it'll just consume everything beyond it. And if that's the case, like you end up with basically an oligopoly for everything, like, you know mm-hmm.[00:30:06] Because they're perfectly general and like, so this would be like the, the a GI path would be like, these are perfectly general. They can do everything. And this one is like, this is actually normal software. The universe is complicated. You've got, and nobody knows the answer.[00:30:18] The Economics Reality Check: Gross Margins, Training Costs & Borrowing Against the Future[00:30:18] Martin Casado: My belief is if you actually look at the numbers of these companies, so generally if you look at the numbers of these companies, if you look at like the amount they're making and how much they, they spent training the last model, they're gross margin positive.[00:30:30] You're like, oh, that's really working. But if you look at like. The current training that they're doing for the next model, their gross margin negative. So part of me thinks that a lot of ‘em are kind of borrowing against the future and that's gonna have to slow down. It's gonna catch up to them at some point in time, but we don't really know.[00:30:47] Sarah Wang: Yeah.[00:30:47] Martin Casado: Does that make sense? Like, I mean, it could be, it could be the case that the only reason this is working is ‘cause they can raise that next round and they can train that next model. ‘cause these models have such a short. Life. And so at some point in time, like, you know, they won't be able to [00:31:00] raise that next round for the next model and then things will kind of converge and fragment again.[00:31:03] But right now it's not.[00:31:04] Sarah Wang: Totally. I think the other, by the way, just, um, a meta point. I think the other lesson from the last three years is, and we talk about this all the time ‘cause we're on this. Twitter X bubble. Um, cool. But, you know, if you go back to, let's say March, 2024, that period, it felt like a, I think an open source model with an, like a, you know, benchmark leading capability was sort of launching on a daily basis at that point.[00:31:27] And, um, and so that, you know, that's one period. Suddenly it's sort of like open source takes over the world. There's gonna be a plethora. It's not an oligopoly, you know, if you fast, you know, if you, if you rewind time even before that GPT-4 was number one for. Nine months, 10 months. It's a long time. Right.[00:31:44] Um, and of course now we're in this era where it feels like an oligopoly, um, maybe some very steady state shifts and, and you know, it could look like this in the future too, but it just, it's so hard to call. And I think the thing that keeps, you know, us up at [00:32:00] night in, in a good way and bad way, is that the capability progress is actually not slowing down.[00:32:06] And so until that happens, right, like you don't know what's gonna look like.[00:32:09] Martin Casado: But I, I would, I would say for sure it's not converged, like for sure, like the systemic capital flows have not converged, meaning right now it's still borrowing against the future to subsidize growth currently, which you can do that for a period of time.[00:32:23] But, but you know, at the end, at some point the market will rationalize that and just nobody knows what that will look like.[00:32:29] Alessio: Yeah.[00:32:29] Martin Casado: Or, or like the drop in price of compute will, will, will save them. Who knows?[00:32:34] Alessio: Yeah. Yeah. I think the models need to ask them to, to specific tasks. You know? It's like, okay, now Opus 4.5 might be a GI at some specific task, and now you can like depreciate the model over a longer time.[00:32:45] I think now, now, right now there's like no old model.[00:32:47] Martin Casado: No, but let, but lemme just change that mental, that's, that used to be my mental model. Lemme just change it a little bit.[00:32:53] Capital as a Weapon vs Task Saturation: Where Real Enterprise Value Gets Built[00:32:53] Martin Casado: If you can raise three times, if you can raise more than the aggregate of anybody that uses your models, that doesn't even matter.[00:32:59] It doesn't [00:33:00] even matter. See what I'm saying? Like, yeah. Yeah. So, so I have an API Business. My API business is 60% margin, or 70% margin, or 80% margin is a high margin business. So I know what everybody is using. If I can raise more money than the aggregate of everybody that's using it, I will consume them whether I'm a GI or not.[00:33:14] And I will know if they're using it ‘cause they're using it. And like, unlike in the past where engineering stops me from doing that.[00:33:21] Alessio: Mm-hmm.[00:33:21] Martin Casado: It is very straightforward. You just train. So I also thought it was kind of like, you must ask the code a GI, general, general, general. But I think there's also just a possibility that the, that the capital markets will just give them the, the, the ammunition to just go after everybody on top of ‘em.[00:33:36] Sarah Wang: I, I do wonder though, to your point, um, if there's a certain task that. Getting marginally better isn't actually that much better. Like we've asked them to it, to, you know, we can call it a GI or whatever, you know, actually, Ali Goi talks about this, like we're already at a GI for a lot of functions in the enterprise.[00:33:50] Um. That's probably those for those tasks, you probably could build very specific companies that focus on just getting as much value out of that task that isn't [00:34:00] coming from the model itself. There's probably a rich enterprise business to be built there. I mean, could be wrong on that, but there's a lot of interesting examples.[00:34:08] So, right, if you're looking the legal profession or, or whatnot, and maybe that's not a great one ‘cause the models are getting better on that front too, but just something where it's a bit saturated, then the value comes from. Services. It comes from implementation, right? It comes from all these things that actually make it useful to the end customer.[00:34:24] Martin Casado: Sorry, what am I, one more thing I think is, is underused in all of this is like, to what extent every task is a GI complete.[00:34:31] Sarah Wang: Mm-hmm.[00:34:32] Martin Casado: Yeah. I code every day. It's so fun.[00:34:35] Sarah Wang: That's a core question. Yeah.[00:34:36] Martin Casado: And like. When I'm talking to these models, it's not just code. I mean, it's everything, right? Like I, you know, like it's,[00:34:43] swyx: it's healthcare.[00:34:44] It's,[00:34:44] Martin Casado: I mean, it's[00:34:44] swyx: Mele,[00:34:45] Martin Casado: but it's every, it is exactly that. Like, yeah, that's[00:34:47] Sarah Wang: great support. Yeah.[00:34:48] Martin Casado: It's everything. Like I'm asking these models to, yeah, to understand compliance. I'm asking these models to go search the web. I'm asking these models to talk about things I know in the history, like it's having a full conversation with me while I, I engineer, and so it could be [00:35:00] the case that like, mm-hmm.[00:35:01] The most a, you know, a GI complete, like I'm not an a GI guy. Like I think that's, you know, but like the most a GI complete model will is win independent of the task. And we don't know the answer to that one either.[00:35:11] swyx: Yeah.[00:35:12] Martin Casado: But it seems to me that like, listen, codex in my experience is for sure better than Opus 4.5 for coding.[00:35:18] Like it finds the hardest bugs that I work in with. Like, it is, you know. The smartest developers. I don't work on it. It's great. Um, but I think Opus 4.5 is actually very, it's got a great bedside manner and it really, and it, it really matters if you're building something very complex because like, it really, you know, like you're, you're, you're a partner and a brainstorming partner for somebody.[00:35:38] And I think we don't discuss enough how every task kind of has that quality.[00:35:42] swyx: Mm-hmm.[00:35:43] Martin Casado: And what does that mean to like capital investment and like frontier models and Submodels? Yeah.[00:35:47] Why “Coding Models” Keep Collapsing into Generalists (Reasoning vs Taste)[00:35:47] Martin Casado: Like what happened to all the special coding models? Like, none of ‘em worked right. So[00:35:51] Alessio: some of them, they didn't even get released.[00:35:53] Magical[00:35:54] Martin Casado: Devrel. There's a whole, there's a whole host. We saw a bunch of them and like there's this whole theory that like, there could be, and [00:36:00] I think one of the conclusions is, is like there's no such thing as a coding model,[00:36:04] Alessio: you know?[00:36:04] Martin Casado: Like, that's not a thing. Like you're talking to another human being and it's, it's good at coding, but like it's gotta be good at everything.[00:36:10] swyx: Uh, minor disagree only because I, I'm pretty like, have pretty high confidence that basically open eye will always release a GPT five and a GT five codex. Like that's the code's. Yeah. The way I call it is one for raisin, one for Tiz. Um, and, and then like someone internal open, it was like, yeah, that's a good way to frame it.[00:36:32] Martin Casado: That's so funny.[00:36:33] swyx: Uh, but maybe it, maybe it collapses down to reason and that's it. It's not like a hundred dimensions doesn't life. Yeah. It's two dimensions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like and exactly. Beside manner versus coding. Yeah.[00:36:43] Martin Casado: Yeah.[00:36:44] swyx: It's, yeah.[00:36:46] Martin Casado: I, I think for, for any, it's hilarious. For any, for anybody listening to this for, for, for, I mean, for you, like when, when you're like coding or using these models for something like that.[00:36:52] Like actually just like be aware of how much of the interaction has nothing to do with coding and it just turns out to be a large portion of it. And so like, you're, I [00:37:00] think like, like the best Soto ish model. You know, it is going to remain very important no matter what the task is.[00:37:06] swyx: Yeah.[00:37:07] What He's Actually Coding: Gaussian Splats, Spark.js & 3D Scene Rendering Demos[00:37:07] swyx: Uh, speaking of coding, uh, I, I'm gonna be cheeky and ask like, what actually are you coding?[00:37:11] Because obviously you, you could code anything and you are obviously a busy investor and a manager of the good. Giant team. Um, what are you calling?[00:37:18] Martin Casado: I help, um, uh, FEFA at World Labs. Uh, it's one of the investments and um, and they're building a foundation model that creates 3D scenes.[00:37:27] swyx: Yeah, we had it on the pod.[00:37:28] Yeah. Yeah,[00:37:28] Martin Casado: yeah. And so these 3D scenes are Gaussian splats, just by the way that kind of AI works. And so like, you can reconstruct a scene better with, with, with radiance feels than with meshes. ‘cause like they don't really have topology. So, so they, they, they produce each. Beautiful, you know, 3D rendered scenes that are Gaussian splats, but the actual industry support for Gaussian splats isn't great.[00:37:50] It's just never, you know, it's always been meshes and like, things like unreal use meshes. And so I work on a open source library called Spark js, which is a. Uh, [00:38:00] a JavaScript rendering layer ready for Gaussian splats. And it's just because, you know, um, you, you, you need that support and, and right now there's kind of a three js moment that's all meshes and so like, it's become kind of the default in three Js ecosystem.[00:38:13] As part of that to kind of exercise the library, I just build a whole bunch of cool demos. So if you see me on X, you see like all my demos and all the world building, but all of that is just to exercise this, this library that I work on. ‘cause it's actually a very tough algorithmics problem to actually scale a library that much.[00:38:29] And just so you know, this is ancient history now, but 30 years ago I paid for undergrad, you know, working on game engines in college in the late nineties. So I've got actually a back and it's very old background, but I actually have a background in this and so a lot of it's fun. You know, but, but the, the, the, the whole goal is just for this rendering library to, to,[00:38:47] Sarah Wang: are you one of the most active contributors?[00:38:49] The, their GitHub[00:38:50] Martin Casado: spark? Yes.[00:38:51] Sarah Wang: Yeah, yeah.[00:38:51] Martin Casado: There's only two of us there, so, yes. No, so by the way, so the, the pri The pri, yeah. Yeah. So the primary developer is a [00:39:00] guy named Andres Quist, who's an absolute genius. He and I did our, our PhDs together. And so like, um, we studied for constant Quas together. It was almost like hanging out with an old friend, you know?[00:39:09] And so like. So he, he's the core, core guy. I did mostly kind of, you know, the side I run venture fund.[00:39:14] swyx: It's amazing. Like five years ago you would not have done any of this. And it brought you back[00:39:19] Martin Casado: the act, the Activ energy, you're still back. Energy was so high because you had to learn all the framework b******t.[00:39:23] Man, I f*****g used to hate that. And so like, now I don't have to deal with that. I can like focus on the algorithmics so I can focus on the scaling and I,[00:39:29] swyx: yeah. Yeah.[00:39:29] LLMs vs Spatial Intelligence + How to Value World Labs' 3D Foundation Model[00:39:29] swyx: And then, uh, I'll observe one irony and then I'll ask a serious investor question, uh, which is like, the irony is FFE actually doesn't believe that LMS can lead us to spatial intelligence.[00:39:37] And here you are using LMS to like help like achieve spatial intelligence. I just see, I see some like disconnect in there.[00:39:45] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think, you know, I think, I think what she would say is LLMs are great to help with coding.[00:39:51] swyx: Yes.[00:39:51] Martin Casado: But like, that's very different than a model that actually like provides, they, they'll never have the[00:39:56] swyx: spatial inte[00:39:56] Martin Casado: issues.[00:39:56] And listen, our brains clearly listen, our brains, brains clearly have [00:40:00] both our, our brains clearly have a language reasoning section and they clearly have a spatial reasoning section. I mean, it's just, you know, these are two pretty independent problems.[00:40:07] swyx: Okay. And you, you, like, I, I would say that the, the one data point I recently had, uh, against it is the DeepMind, uh, IMO Gold, where, so, uh, typically the, the typical answer is that this is where you start going down the neuros symbolic path, right?[00:40:21] Like one, uh, sort of very sort of abstract reasoning thing and one form, formal thing. Um, and that's what. DeepMind had in 2024 with alpha proof, alpha geometry, and now they just use deep think and just extended thinking tokens. And it's one model and it's, and it's in LM.[00:40:36] Martin Casado: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.[00:40:37] swyx: And so that, that was my indication of like, maybe you don't need a separate system.[00:40:42] Martin Casado: Yeah. So, so let me step back. I mean, at the end of the day, at the end of the day, these things are like nodes in a graph with weights on them. Right. You know, like it can be modeled like if you, if you distill it down. But let me just talk about the two different substrates. Let's, let me put you in a dark room.[00:40:56] Like totally black room. And then let me just [00:41:00] describe how you exit it. Like to your left, there's a table like duck below this thing, right? I mean like the chances that you're gonna like not run into something are very low. Now let me like turn on the light and you actually see, and you can do distance and you know how far something away is and like where it is or whatever.[00:41:17] Then you can do it, right? Like language is not the right primitives to describe. The universe because it's not exact enough. So that's all Faye, Faye is talking about. When it comes to like spatial reasoning, it's like you actually have to know that this is three feet far, like that far away. It is curved.[00:41:37] You have to understand, you know, the, like the actual movement through space.[00:41:40] swyx: Yeah.[00:41:40] Martin Casado: So I do, I listen, I do think at the end of these models are definitely converging as far as models, but there's, there's, there's different representations of problems you're solving. One is language. Which, you know, that would be like describing to somebody like what to do.[00:41:51] And the other one is actually just showing them and the space reasoning is just showing them.[00:41:55] swyx: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Got it, got it. Uh, the, in the investor question was on, on, well labs [00:42:00] is, well, like, how do I value something like this? What, what, what work does the, do you do? I'm just like, Fefe is awesome.[00:42:07] Justin's awesome. And you know, the other two co-founder, co-founders, but like the, the, the tech, everyone's building cool tech. But like, what's the value of the tech? And this is the fundamental question[00:42:16] Martin Casado: of, well, let, let, just like these, let me just maybe give you a rough sketch on the diffusion models. I actually love to hear Sarah because I'm a venture for, you know, so like, ventures always, always like kind of wild west type[00:42:24] swyx: stuff.[00:42:24] You, you, you, you paid a dream and she has to like, actually[00:42:28] Martin Casado: I'm gonna say I'm gonna mar to reality, so I'm gonna say the venture for you. And she can be like, okay, you a little kid. Yeah. So like, so, so these diffusion models literally. Create something for, for almost nothing. And something that the, the world has found to be very valuable in the past, in our real markets, right?[00:42:45] Like, like a 2D image. I mean, that's been an entire market. People value them. It takes a human being a long time to create it, right? I mean, to create a, you know, a, to turn me into a whatever, like an image would cost a hundred bucks in an hour. The inference cost [00:43:00] us a hundredth of a penny, right? So we've seen this with speech in very successful companies.[00:43:03] We've seen this with 2D image. We've seen this with movies. Right? Now, think about 3D scene. I mean, I mean, when's Grand Theft Auto coming out? It's been six, what? It's been 10 years. I mean, how, how like, but hasn't been 10 years.[00:43:14] Alessio: Yeah.[00:43:15] Martin Casado: How much would it cost to like, to reproduce this room in 3D? Right. If you, if you, if you hired somebody on fiber, like in, in any sort of quality, probably 4,000 to $10,000.[00:43:24] And then if you had a professional, probably $30,000. So if you could generate the exact same thing from a 2D image, and we know that these are used and they're using Unreal and they're using Blend, or they're using movies and they're using video games and they're using all. So if you could do that for.[00:43:36] You know, less than a dollar, that's four or five orders of magnitude cheaper. So you're bringing the marginal cost of something that's useful down by three orders of magnitude, which historically have created very large companies. So that would be like the venture kind of strategic dreaming map.[00:43:49] swyx: Yeah.[00:43:50] And, and for listeners, uh, you can do this yourself on your, on your own phone with like. Uh, the marble.[00:43:55] Martin Casado: Yeah. Marble.[00:43:55] swyx: Uh, or but also there's many Nerf apps where you just go on your iPhone and, and do this.[00:43:59] Martin Casado: Yeah. Yeah. [00:44:00] Yeah. And, and in the case of marble though, it would, what you do is you literally give it in.[00:44:03] So most Nerf apps you like kind of run around and take a whole bunch of pictures and then you kind of reconstruct it.[00:44:08] swyx: Yeah.[00:44:08] Martin Casado: Um, things like marble, just that the whole generative 3D space will just take a 2D image and it'll reconstruct all the like, like[00:44:16] swyx: meaning it has to fill in. Uh,[00:44:18] Martin Casado: stuff at the back of the table, under the table, the back, like, like the images, it doesn't see.[00:44:22] So the generator stuff is very different than reconstruction that it fills in the things that you can't see.[00:44:26] swyx: Yeah. Okay.[00:44:26] Sarah Wang: So,[00:44:27] Martin Casado: all right. So now the,[00:44:28] Sarah Wang: no, no. I mean I love that[00:44:29] Martin Casado: the adult[00:44:29] Sarah Wang: perspective. Um, well, no, I was gonna say these are very much a tag team. So we, we started this pod with that, um, premise. And I think this is a perfect question to even build on that further.[00:44:36] ‘cause it truly is, I mean, we're tag teaming all of these together.[00:44:39] Investing in Model Labs, Media Rumors, and the Cursor Playbook (Margins & Going Down-Stack)[00:44:39] Sarah Wang: Um, but I think every investment fundamentally starts with the same. Maybe the same two premises. One is, at this point in time, we actually believe that there are. And of one founders for their particular craft, and they have to be demonstrated in their prior careers, right?[00:44:56] So, uh, we're not investing in every, you know, now the term is NEO [00:45:00] lab, but every foundation model, uh, any, any company, any founder trying to build a foundation model, we're not, um, contrary to popular opinion, we're

In this episode of Run the Numbers, CJ sits down with Varsha Udayabhanu of Invisible to unpack what enterprise AI adoption actually looks like beyond the hype. They cover forward deployed engineers, eight-week solution sprints, value-based pricing when outcomes are hard to meter, ARR vs. services revenue, and why “momentum” beats traditional SaaS metrics. A tactical look at trust, expansion, and building durable AI revenue.—SPONSORS:Brex is an intelligent finance platform that combines corporate cards, built-in expense management, and AI agents to eliminate manual finance work. By automating expense reviews and reconciliations, Brex gives CFOs more time for the high-impact work that drives growth. Join 35,000+ companies like Anthropic, Coinbase, and DoorDash at https://www.brex.com/metricsMetronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That's why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.comRightRev is an automated revenue recognition platform built for modern pricing models like usage-based pricing, bundles, and mid-cycle upgrades. RightRev lets companies scale monetization without slowing down close or compliance. For RevRec that keeps growth moving, visit https://www.rightrev.comRillet is an AI-native ERP built for modern finance teams that want to close faster without fighting legacy systems. Designed to support complex revenue recognition, multi-entity operations, and real-time reporting, Rillet helps teams achieve a true zero-day close—with some customers closing in hours, not days. If you're scaling on an ERP that wasn't built in the 90s, book a demo at https://www.rillet.com/cjTabs is an AI-native revenue platform that unifies billing, collections, and revenue recognition for companies running usage-based or complex contracts. By bringing together ERP, CRM, and real product usage data into a single system of record, Tabs eliminates manual reconciliations and speeds up close and cash collection. Companies like Cortex, Statsig, and Cursor trust Tabs to scale revenue efficiently. Learn more at https://www.tabs.com/runAbacum is a modern FP&A platform built by former CFOs to replace slow, consultant-heavy planning tools. With self-service integrations and AI-powered workflows for forecasting, variance analysis, and scenario modeling, Abacum helps finance teams scale without becoming software admins. Trusted by teams at Strava, Replit, and JG Wentworth—learn more at https://www.abacum.ai—LINKS: Varsha: https://www.linkedin.com/in/varshaudayabhanu/Company: https://invisibletech.ai/CJ: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/Mostly metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com—RELATED EPISODES:Marketing as a Form of Capital Allocation With Carta's Head of Growth Angela Winegarhttps://youtu.be/rG09ehsrWv8—TIMESTAMPS:00:00 Intro03:21 What Invisible Technologies Does05:34 Enterprise AI Adoption Gap07:38 Forward Deployed Engineers09:44 Evolving GTM in AI Services10:36 Solution Sprints12:37 Sponsor — Brex | Metronome | RightRev15:56 Upfront Investment vs. Upside18:38 Bespoke Deals20:37 Value-Based Pricing in Enterprise AI22:12 Value Sold vs. Value Delivered23:31 Enterprise Revenue as a Portfolio of Bets24:53 Time-Bound Solution Sprints27:06 Sponsor — Rillet | Tabs | Abacum30:32 Humans in the Loop & Expert Incentives33:38 Niche Human Expertise34:10 Rethinking KPIs Beyond ARR35:44 Momentum Metrics39:00 Evaluating GenAI Financial Profiles40:47 Expansion as the Atomic Unit42:19 AdTech Lessons on Distribution & Brand43:23 Why Brand Matters for Enterprise47:10 Commoditization Risk48:31 Long-Ass Lightning Round53:20 Credits

This week on Sinica, I speak with Kyle Chan, a fellow at the John L. Thornton China Center at Brookings, previously a postdoc at Princeton, and author of the outstanding High-Capacity Newsletter on Substack. Kyle has emerged as one of the sharpest and most empirically grounded voices on U.S.-China technology relations, and he holds the all-time record for the most namechecks on Sinica's “Paying it forward” segment. We use his recent Financial Times op-ed on “The Great Reversal” in global technology flows and his longer High-Capacity essay on re-coupling as jumping-off points for a wide-ranging conversation about where China now sits at the global technological frontier, why the dominant decoupling narrative misses powerful structural forces pulling the two economies back together, and what all of this means for innovation, choke points, and the global tech ecosystem.4:35 – How Kyle became Kyle Chan: from Chicago School economics to development, railways, and systems thinking 12:50 – The Great Reversal: China at the technological frontier, from megawatt EV charging to LFP batteries 17:59 – The electro-industrial tech stack and China's overlapping, mutually reinforcing tech ecosystems 22:40 – Industrial strategy and time horizons: patience, persistence, and the long arc of China's auto industry 33:45 – Re-coupling under pressure: Waymo and Zeekr, Unitree robots, and the structural forces binding the two economies 40:22 – The gravity model: can political distance overwhelm technological mass? 47:01 – What China still wants from the U.S.: Cursor, GitHub, talent, and the AI brain drain 51:52 – Weaponized interdependence and the danger of securitizing everything 57:30 – Firm-level adaptation: HeyGen, Manus, and the playbook for de-sinification 1:02:58 – The view from the middle: Gulf states, Southeast Asia, and India as geopolitical arbitrageurs 1:10:18 – Engineering resilience: what policymakers are getting wrong about the systems they're buildingPaying it forward: Katrina Northrop; Grace Shao and her AI Proem newsletterRecommendations:Kyle: Wired Magazine's Made in China newsletter (by Zeyi Yang and Louise Matsakis); The Wire China Kaiser: The Wall Dancers: Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet by Yi-Ling LiuSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We're keeping the AI Tools series rolling with Adir Traitel, entrepreneur, product leader, and early adopter of just about every vibe coding tool out there. Adir joins Matt and Moshe to share hard‑won lessons from building real apps with v0, Bolt, Replit, Figma Make, and more, all while running his own startup and consulting on product builds across industries.From his early days in project management and mobile app startups, through work with companies like Moovit and across FinTech, AgTech, and credit scoring, Adir has consistently been the “try it first” person for new build tools. In this episode, he breaks down what these platforms actually do well, where they fall short, and how product managers can use them responsibly for experiments, prototypes, and beyond.Join Matt, Moshe, and Adir as they explore:Adir's journey from PM and founder to heavy user of vibe coding tools in his current startupHis 3-layer view of the ecosystem: AI dev assistants (Cursor, Antigravity, Claude Code), front-end mockup tools (v0, Figma Make), and full‑product builders (Lovable, Base44, Bolt, Replit)V0: where it shines for quickly building functional UIs (like his electricity consumption app) and where it starts to crackLovable: great for sites and simple flows, but not ideal for complex SaaS or CRM‑like productsBolt: fun and fast for concepts, but why it never got him close to productionReplit: stronger agents and capabilities, but weaker UI output and surprising backend defaults that can get very expensive very quicklyFigma Make and Google Stitch: when design quality trumps everything else, especially for SaaS interfacesThe real costs of vibe coding: AI token spend, hosting/pricing traps, and why production economics matter as much as build speedWhat his “dream product” would look like, including multi‑agent environments, better security/privacy, and built‑in QA and CI/CDHow all this is reshaping the product management role, and why curiosity and tool fluency are becoming must‑have skillsAnd much more!Want to connect with Adir or learn more?LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adirtraitel/ Website: https://adirtraitel.com/You can also connect with us and find more episodes:Product for Product Podcast: http://linkedin.com/company/product-for-product-podcastMatt Green: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattgreenproduct/Moshe Mikanovsky: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikanovskyNote: Any views mentioned in the podcast are the sole views of our hosts and guests, and do not represent the products mentioned in any way.Please leave us a review and feedback ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Get our AI Video Guide: https://clickhubspot.com/dth Episode 97: How close are we to a world where AI-generated videos are indistinguishable from reality? Matt Wolfe (https://x.com/mreflow) and Joe Fier (linkedin.com/in/joefier) dive deep into Seedance 2.0—ByteDance's new AI video model that could outpace giants like Sora and Veo. Joe, a marketing and business expert known for his hands-on approach and insights into AI's rapid evolution, helps to break down the five most fascinating developments in the AI space this week. They tackles game-changing AI advances: Seedance 2.0's mind-blowing video generation for ads and motion graphics, the rollout of Google's Veo 3.1 in Google Ads, the GPT-5.3 Codex Spark coding model built on specialized inference chips, Gemini's DeepThink model for scientific research, and the early rollout of ChatGPT ads. Check out The Next Wave YouTube Channel if you want to see Matt and Nathan on screen: https://lnk.to/thenextwavepd — Show Notes: (00:00) Seedance 2.0 arrives – AI video generation blurs reality, ad creation moves fast. (03:03) Google's Veo 3.1 powers video ads, advertisers can now generate clips directly from image uploads. (05:33) Comparison of Runway, Kling, Veo, and Sora—head-to-head prompt showdown. (07:00) Motion graphics and explainers—AI's take on the creative industry. (08:35) US vs. China—Copyright, IP, and training data debates. (12:10) Deepfake and video authenticity—why we now default to skepticism. (13:30) Google's edge in visual AI via YouTube's massive corpus. (14:39) The next frontier: Longer, more consistent video generation. (15:14) Where do humans fit in? Taste, storytelling, and creative direction. (18:30) GPT-5.3 Codex Spark—coding models on Cerebras inference chips, demo generating a website in 18 seconds. (24:34) AI tool comparisons—Codex vs. Cursor vs. Claude Code. (25:12) Speed as the key bottleneck breaker in creative and technical workflows. (28:02) Google's Gemini DeepThink—state-of-the-art research, advanced coding and physics capabilities. (32:52) Gemini demo attempt—3D-printable STL file and solving the three-body problem. (33:20) ChatGPT rolls out ads—impact on monetization and user trust. (40:02) Google's ad history—how “sponsored” is becoming harder to distinguish. (44:02) Democratizing AI access via ad-supported models. (45:03) Matt Schumer's viral article—why AI is moving even faster than most people realize. (51:11) Tools that build tools—AGI's path and the new role for humans. (53:12) Real-world skills and taste—where humanity still wins (for now). (54:01) Final thoughts—wake up, pay attention, and stay on the leading edge. — Mentions: Seedance 2.0: https://www.seedance.com/ ByteDance: https://www.bytedance.com/ CapCut: https://www.capcut.com/ Veo: https://deepmind.google/models/veo/ Runway: https://runwayml.com/ ChatGPT Codex: https://chatgpt.com/codex Matt Schumer's Viral Article: https://www.mattshumer.com/blog/ai-changes-everything Super Bowl Claude Commercial: https://www.anthropic.com/news/super-bowl-ad Get the guide to build your own Custom GPT: https://clickhubspot.com/tnw — Check Out Matt's Stuff: • Future Tools - https://futuretools.beehiiv.com/ • Blog - https://www.mattwolfe.com/ • YouTube- https://www.youtube.com/@mreflow — Check Out Nathan's Stuff: Newsletter: https://news.lore.com/ Blog - https://lore.com/ The Next Wave is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by Hubspot Media // Production by Darren Clarke // Editing by Ezra Bakker Trupiano

In this episode of Resilient Cyber, we will be sat down with Ari Marzuk, the researcher who published "IDEsaster", A Novel Vulnerability Class in AI IDE's.We will be discussing the rise of AI-driven development and modern AI coding assistants, tools and agents, and how Ari discovered 30+ vulnerabilities impacting some of the most widely used AI coding tools and the broader risks around AI coding.Ari's background in offensive security — Ari has spent the past decade in offensive security, including time with Israeli military intelligence, NSO Group, Salesforce, and currently Microsoft, with a focus on AI security for the last two to three years.IDEsaster: a new vulnerability class — Ari's research uncovered 30+ vulnerabilities and 24 CVEs across AI-powered IDEs, revealing not just individual bugs but an entirely new vulnerability class rooted in the shared base IDE layer that tools like Cursor, Copilot, and others are built on."Secure for AI" as a design principle — Ari argues that legacy IDEs were never built with autonomous AI agents in mind, and that the same gap likely exists across CI/CD pipelines, cloud environments, and collaboration tools as organizations race to bolt on AI capabilities.Low barrier to exploitation — The vulnerabilities Ari found don't require nation-state sophistication to exploit; techniques like remote JSON schema exfiltration can be carried out with relatively simple prompt engineering and publicly known attack vectors.Human-in-the-loop is losing its effectiveness — Even with diff preview and approval controls enabled, exfiltration attacks still triggered in Ari's testing, and approval fatigue from hundreds of agent-generated actions is pushing developers toward YOLO mode.Least privilege and the capability vs. security trade-off — The same unrestricted access that makes AI coding agents so productive is what makes them vulnerable, and history suggests organizations will continue to optimize for utility over security without strong guardrails.Top defensive recommendations — Ari emphasized isolation (containers, VMs) as the single most important control, followed by enforcing secure defaults that can't be easily overridden, and applying enterprise-level monitoring and governance to AI agent usage.What's next — Ari is turning his attention to newer AI tools and attack surfaces but isn't naming targets yet. You can follow his work on LinkedIn, X, and his blog at makarita.com.

Jem's dialed-in tumbler workflow is pumping out thousands of little widgets with barely any intervention, while Justin redesigned the Fang clamp packaging to keep up with demand. They swap war stories about terrible powder coaters, Jem races his cousin vs Cursor on a Raspberry Pi battery project, and Justin finds a surprisingly old-school solution to stop Slacking across the shop.Watch on YoutubeDISCUSSED:✍️ Comment or Suggest a TopicEngineer versus AI in modbus solution ꘎Clawtastic ꘎Love of tumbling ꘎Cursor is king ꘎Package Redesign for FangsLocal Open assistantsOpen ClawQuality issues other vendorsMicroscope 10 inchIntercoms---Profit First PlaylistClassic Episodes Playlist---SUPPORT THE SHOWBecome a Patreon - Get the Secret ShowReview on Apple Podcast Share with a FriendDiscuss on Show SubredditShow InfoShow WebsiteContact Jem & JustinInstagram | Tiktok | Facebook | YoutubePlease note: Show notes contains affiliate links.HOSTSJem FreemanCastlemaine, Victoria, AustraliaLike Butter | Instagram | More LinksJustin BrouillettePortland, Oregon, USA

Our 235th episode with a summary and discussion of last week's big AI news!Recorded on 01/02/2026Hosted by Andrey Kurenkov and Jeremie HarrisFeel free to email us your questions and feedback at contact@lastweekinai.com and/or hello@gladstone.aiRead out our text newsletter and comment on the podcast at https://lastweekin.ai/In this episode:* Major model launches include Anthropic's Opus 4.6 with a 1M-token context window and “agent teams,” OpenAI's GPT-5.3 Codex and faster Codex Spark via Cerebras, and Google's Gemini 3 Deep Think posting big jumps on ARC-AGI-2 and other STEM benchmarks amid criticism about missing safety documentation.* Generative media advances feature ByteDance's Seedance 2.0 text-to-video with high realism and broad prompting inputs, new image models Seedream 5.0 and Alibaba's Qwen Image 2.0, plus xAI's Grok Imagine API for text/image-to-video.* Open and competitive releases expand with Zhipu's GLM-5, DeepSeek's 1M-token context model, Cursor Composer 1.5, and open-weight Qwen3 Coder Next using hybrid attention aimed at efficient local/agentic coding.* Business updates include ElevenLabs raising $500M at an $11B valuation, Runway raising $315M at a $5.3B valuation, humanoid robotics firm Apptronik raising $935M at a $5.3B valuation, Waymo announcing readiness for high-volume production of its 6th-gen hardware, plus industry drama around Anthropic's Super Bowl ad and departures from xAI.Timestamps:(00:00:10) Intro / Banter(00:02:03) Sponsor Break(00:05:33) Response to listener commentsTools & Apps(00:07:27) Anthropic releases Opus 4.6 with new 'agent teams' | TechCrunch(00:11:28) OpenAI's new GPT-5.3-Codex is 25% faster and goes way beyond coding now - what's new | ZDNET(00:25:30) OpenAI launches new macOS app for agentic coding | TechCrunch(00:26:38) Google Unveils Gemini 3 Deep Think for Science & Engineering | The Tech Buzz(00:31:26) ByteDance's Seedance 2.0 Might be the Best AI Video Generator Yet - TechEBlog(00:35:14) China's ByteDance, Alibaba unveil AI image tools to rival Google's popular Nano Banana | South China Morning Post(00:36:54) DeepSeek boosts AI model with 10-fold token addition as Zhipu AI unveils GLM-5 | South China Morning Post(00:43:11) Cursor launches Composer 1.5 with upgrades for complex tasks(00:44:03) xAI launches Grok Imagine API for text and image to videoApplications & Business(00:45:47) Nvidia-backed AI voice startups ElevenLabs hits $11 billion valuation(00:52:04) AI video startup Runway raises $315M at $5.3B valuation, eyes more capable world models | TechCrunch(00:54:02) Humanoid robot startup Apptronik has now raised $935M at a $5B+ valuation | TechCrunch(00:57:10) Anthropic says 'Claude will remain ad-free,' unlike an unnamed rival | The Verge(01:00:18) Okay, now exactly half of xAI's founding team has left the company | TechCrunch(01:04:03) Waymo's next-gen robotaxi is ready for passengers — and also 'high-volume production' | The VergeProjects & Open Source(01:04:59) Qwen3-Coder-Next: Pushing Small Hybrid Models on Agentic Coding(01:08:38) OpenClaw's AI 'skill' extensions are a security nightmare | The VergeResearch & Advancements(01:10:40) Learning to Reason in 13 Parameters(01:16:01) Reinforcement World Model Learning for LLM-based Agents(01:20:00) Opus 4.6 on Vending-Bench – Not Just a Helpful AssistantPolicy & Safety(01:22:28) METR GPT-5.2(01:26:59) The Hot Mess of AI: How Does Misalignment Scale with Model Intelligence and Task Complexity?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode, CJ talks with Paul Stansik of ParkerGale Capital about what separates Simplifiers from Complicators. They unpack why most board meetings miss the point, how to answer the actual question, and why naming the real problem builds trust.—SPONSORS:Abacum is a modern FP&A platform built by former CFOs to replace slow, consultant-heavy planning tools. With self-service integrations and AI-powered workflows for forecasting, variance analysis, and scenario modeling, Abacum helps finance teams scale without becoming software admins. Trusted by teams at Strava, Replit, and JG Wentworth—learn more at https://www.abacum.aiBrex is an intelligent finance platform that combines corporate cards, built-in expense management, and AI agents to eliminate manual finance work. By automating expense reviews and reconciliations, Brex gives CFOs more time for the high-impact work that drives growth. Join 35,000+ companies like Anthropic, Coinbase, and DoorDash at https://www.brex.com/metricsMetronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That's why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.comRightRev is an automated revenue recognition platform built for modern pricing models like usage-based pricing, bundles, and mid-cycle upgrades. RightRev lets companies scale monetization without slowing down close or compliance. For RevRec that keeps growth moving, visit https://www.rightrev.comRillet is an AI-native ERP built for modern finance teams that want to close faster without fighting legacy systems. Designed to support complex revenue recognition, multi-entity operations, and real-time reporting, Rillet helps teams achieve a true zero-day close—with some customers closing in hours, not days. If you're scaling on an ERP that wasn't built in the 90s, book a demo at https://www.rillet.com/cjTabs is an AI-native revenue platform that unifies billing, collections, and revenue recognition for companies running usage-based or complex contracts. By bringing together ERP, CRM, and real product usage data into a single system of record, Tabs eliminates manual reconciliations and speeds up close and cash collection. Companies like Cortex, Statsig, and Cursor trust Tabs to scale revenue efficiently. Learn more at https://www.tabs.com/run—LINKS: Paul on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulstansik/ParkerGale Capital: https://www.parkergale.com/https://hellooperator.substack.com/CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/Mostly metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com—TIMESTAMPS:0:00 Fixing Broken Windows in Investing3:08 What an Operating Partner Actually Does5:35 Managing Nine Portfolio Companies6:07 Where PE Investors Spend Their Time9:02 Do Investors Think About You All Day?10:16 The Operator “Bermuda Triangle”12:35 Sponsors — Abacum | Brex | Metronome15:52 The CFO “Triangle of Doom”17:47 How to Become an Investor Favorite18:42 Templates Build Trust in Board Communication20:54 Using Trusted Data22:10 The Board Payback Record Scratch23:18 Building Your “Data Diet” With the Board25:19 Sponsors — RightRev | Rillet | Tabs28:47 Signs a Team Isn't in Command31:30 Board Meetings Aren't a Performance34:16 “20 Board Meetings—Don't Waste Them”35:15 Ask Permission to Reallocate the Agenda37:54 When to Send Board Materials40:28 Simplifiers vs. Complicators41:58 The Simplifier Finds the One Question That Matters42:16 Three Traits of a Simplifier: Answer, Find, Do43:15 Why Complicated Operators Take You on a Ride44:26 Selling vs. Substance46:23 “Get There, Bob”47:25 Why We Hedge49:36 You Can't Fix a Secret52:50 Credits

In this episode of Run the Numbers, CJ Gustafson talks with Rivian CFO Claire McDonough about financing one of the most capital-intensive businesses in the world. They cover long-term investment decisions, capacity planning, cash management as production scales, lessons from Rivian's nearly $14B IPO, the risks of over- and under-building, and why federal EV tax credits matter more than most people think.—SPONSORS:Tabs is an AI-native revenue platform that unifies billing, collections, and revenue recognition for companies running usage-based or complex contracts. By bringing together ERP, CRM, and real product usage data into a single system of record, Tabs eliminates manual reconciliations and speeds up close and cash collection. Companies like Cortex, Statsig, and Cursor trust Tabs to scale revenue efficiently. Learn more at https://www.tabs.com/runAbacum is a modern FP&A platform built by former CFOs to replace slow, consultant-heavy planning tools. With self-service integrations and AI-powered workflows for forecasting, variance analysis, and scenario modeling, Abacum helps finance teams scale without becoming software admins. Trusted by teams at Strava, Replit, and JG Wentworth—learn more at https://www.abacum.aiBrex is an intelligent finance platform that combines corporate cards, built-in expense management, and AI agents to eliminate manual finance work. By automating expense reviews and reconciliations, Brex gives CFOs more time for the high-impact work that drives growth. Join 35,000+ companies like Anthropic, Coinbase, and DoorDash at https://www.brex.com/metricsMetronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That's why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.comRightRev is an automated revenue recognition platform built for modern pricing models like usage-based pricing, bundles, and mid-cycle upgrades. RightRev lets companies scale monetization without slowing down close or compliance. For RevRec that keeps growth moving, visit https://www.rightrev.comRillet is an AI-native ERP built for modern finance teams that want to close faster without fighting legacy systems. Designed to support complex revenue recognition, multi-entity operations, and real-time reporting, Rillet helps teams achieve a true zero-day close—with some customers closing in hours, not days. If you're scaling on an ERP that wasn't built in the 90s, book a demo at https://www.rillet.com/cj—LINKS: Claire on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/claire-rauh-mcdonough-5291b946/Rivian: https://rivian.com/CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/Mostly metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com—RELATED EPISODES:Why Revenue Recognition Is the Next AI Battleground | Dan Miller of RightRevhttps://youtu.be/TxhTtwmOass—TIMESTAMPS:00:00:00 Craziest Expense Story at Rivian00:01:22 Intro to Claire McDonough00:03:09 Capital Intensity and Vertical Integration at Rivian00:06:44 Raising $14B: How Rivian Planned Its IPO Capital00:10:22 Capacity Planning and Scaling R2 Production00:12:13 Sponsors — Tabs, Abacum, Brex00:15:34 Sweating Existing Capacity vs Overbuilding00:18:22 Winning EV Adoption from ICE Buyers00:22:27 How Federal EV Tax Credits Shape EV Pricing00:26:03 Sponsors — Metronome, RightRev, Rillet00:29:27 R2 as a Driver of Long-Term Profitability00:33:14 Supply Chain as the Critical Path to Launch00:36:53 Product Roadmap as the Anchor for Capital and Headcount00:39:40 Peloton and Flipkart Lessons from Banking00:43:42 Biggest Career Mistake00:44:50 Advice to Younger Self00:47:19 Rivian's Finance Software Stack

#265: Chris explores how modern AI tools have eliminated the barriers to building software, why planning matters more than coding skill, how anyone can turn a simple problem into a working app faster and cheaper than ever before, and how he built a personal AI assistant that's already started to run his life behind the scenes. Link to Full Show Notes: https://chrishutchins.com/how-to-build-with-ai-tools Partner Deals Green Chef: 50% off on your first box + 20% off for two months with code 50ALLTHEHACKS Mercury: Help your business grow with simplified finances NetSuite: Free KPI checklist to upgrade your business performance Gelt: Skip the waitlist on personalized tax guidance to maximize your wealth Trust & Will: Get 20% off personalized, legally binding estate plans For all the deals, discounts and promo codes from our partners, go to: chrishutchins.com/deals Resources Mentioned AI Models & Assistants ChatGPT OpenClaw Gemini Claude AI Coding & Building Tools Replit Lovable Cursor Codex Productivity & Automation Tools Wispr Flow Zapier Nimble Links Tampermonkey Developer Infrastructure Clerk Supabase GitHub FinTech: Plaid How to Run OpenClaw as your Virtual EA Blogs Doctor of Credit Frequent Miler The Points Guy Deep Personality Credit Cards American Express® Gold Card Citi Strata Elite℠ Card Citi Strata Premier℠ Card Bilt 2.0 ATH Podcast Ep #263: How to Earn Millions of Points and More Listener Q&A Chris' Card Optimizer Tool Ask Chris Anything! Leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Spotify Email for questions, hacks, deals, and feedback: podcast@chrishutchins.com Full Show Notes (00:00) Introduction (01:41) Why This Is the Best Time Ever to Build Software (04:14) How to Build Almost Anything with AI (13:53) Why Context Is the Real Superpower (15:58) Using Planning Mode Instead of Guessing (16:41) Which AI Tool Should You Start With? (17:53) Building a Real Credit Card Optimizer from Scratch (28:48) What It Actually Costs to Build with AI (32:38) The Real AI Learning Curve (33:38) Moving from Cursor to Claude Code (36:17) Why You Should Try Building Something (Even If You're Not a Coder) (37:00) How OpenClaw Changes the Game (38:57) Why Security Still Matters (42:25) A Conversation with Ted, Chris' AI Assistant (44:07) Letting AI Work While You Sleep (49:41) Learning to Be Clear, Specific, and Intentional (50:03) Start with a Real Problem (50:39) Breaking Projects into Small, Winnable Pieces (50:58) What Would You Build If Building Were Easy? (51:59) Keeping Track of Cost and Budget Connect with Chris Newsletter | Membership | X | Instagram | LinkedIn Editor's Note: The content on this page is accurate as of the posting date; however, some of our partner offers may have expired. Opinions expressed here are the author's alone, not those of any bank, credit card issuer, hotel, airline, or other entity. This content has not been reviewed, approved or otherwise endorsed by any of the entities included within the post. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

SaaStr 841: Going From Blobs to Billions. Clay's Co-Founder Breaks Down Inbound, Outbound, and AI-Powered Sales. Clay's Co-Founder Varun Anand takes the stage at SaaStr to break down how the company went from paying for claymation blobs before generating any revenue to powering growth workflows for companies like Cursor, Anthropic, and Figma. He explains why brand has always been core to Clay's identity, how their CFO roast videos and creative campaigns are actually capturing mindshare in a world where B2B marketing is painfully boring, and why he pushes back on the "use AI for everything" mentality that's taken over the industry. Varun does a full live demo building an inbound qualification workflow from scratch using real audience volunteers, walking through everything from lead enrichment and waterfall data sourcing to AI-powered scoring, personalized meme generation, research brief creation, and CRM updates. He also brings audience members on stage to do live growth hacking for their actual business problems. Beyond the product, this session goes deep on hiring. Varun shares the origin story of the GTM Engineer role, how it went from an internal job title for Clay's non-traditional sales team to the most in-demand position in B2B SaaS, and what he actually looks for when evaluating candidates (hint: it's creativity, not a traditional sales background). He talks about Clay's take-home process, work trials, why they hire generalists who commit to specific roles, and the surprising backgrounds of some of their best hires. Whether you're building out your go-to-market motion, thinking about how to use AI without losing what makes your brand unique, or just trying to figure out what a GTM Engineer actually does, this session covers it all. --------------------- This episode is Sponsored in part by HappyFox: Imagine having AI agents for every support task — one that triages tickets, another that catches duplicates, one that spots churn risks. That'd be pretty amazing, right? HappyFox just made it real with Autopilot. These pre-built AI agents deploy in about 60 seconds and run for as low as 2 cents per successful action. All of it sits inside the HappyFox omnichannel, AI-first support stack — Chatbot, Copilot, and Autopilot working as one. Check them out at happyfox.com/saastr   ---------------------   Hey everybody, the biggest B2B + AI event of the year will be back - SaaStr AI in the SF Bay Area, aka the SaaStr Annual, will be back in May 2026.    With 68% VP-level and above, 36% CEOs and founders and a growing 25% AI-first professional, this is the very best of the best S-tier attendees and decision makers that come to SaaStr each year.     But here's the reality, folks: the longer you wait, the higher ticket prices can get. Early bird tickets are available now, but once they're gone, you'll pay hundreds more so don't wait.    Lock in your spot today by going to podcast.saastrannual.com to get my exclusive discount SaaStr AI SF 2026. We'll see you there.

Woody Klemetson scaled sales from 100 people at Divi to 350 at Bill.com post-acquisition, then walked away to build something harder: infrastructure for hybrid AI-human revenue teams. At AskElephant, he's tackling the problem that every revenue leader faces but few can articulate—how to actually implement AI in revenue operations when your systems weren't built for it. With zero marketing spend, AskElephant hit 400% growth through pure referral motion and converts 85% of pilots to production (versus single digits industry-wide). Woody breaks down why most "AI-ready" companies aren't, how to structure pilots that actually ship, and what it takes to hire sellers who orchestrate agents instead of relying on armies of support staff. Topics Discussed: Post-acquisition culture collision: the cost of moving too fast versus too slow Why "AI readiness" is usually one person at a company, not the organization  The 27-agent CRM system that delivers 5% forecast accuracy without human input  Revenue outcome systems as category evolution: solving for predictability across disconnected tools  Pilot-first GTM that converts at 85% by starting with one-minute-per-day wins  Partner-led distribution through consultants evolving from slideware to implementation  Hiring ops-minded sellers who code: over half of non-engineers using Cursor daily  The PLG expansion coming in 2025 and why traditional demand gen is getting tested alongside door-to-door GTM Lessons For B2B Founders: Culture integration requires explicit deceleration early: Woody's team assumed Bill.com wanted their aggressive startup velocity immediately post-acquisition. They didn't slow down to map cultural differences, causing "whiplash" across 350 people. The specific mistake: not creating space to understand Bill's processes before challenging them. Even when acquired for your approach, the first 90 days should be listening and mapping, not executing. Only after understanding their system can you effectively challenge and merge cultures. This applies whether you're acquiring or being acquired—the cultural work is non-negotiable and front-loaded. Diagnose AI readiness by system documentation, not enthusiasm: Most companies think they're AI-ready because leadership wants AI. Reality check: if your teams haven't documented their systems and processes, AI has nothing to learn from. AskElephant starts some customers with basic dictation—not because it's revolutionary, but because it's the prerequisite to anything meaningful. The diagnostic question: "Walk us through your current customer journey." If the answer is "we have sales stages," you're not ready for automation. You need documented systems before AI can execute them. Start by having AI observe and document before it acts. Build agents incrementally to compound context: AskElephant runs 27 different CRM agents that collectively deliver 5% forecast accuracy. This wasn't built in one sprint—it took 40 hours of training and context-building. Each agent handles a specific job: contact creation, data enrichment, ICP scoring, churn monitoring, stage updates. The misconception founders have: AI should work perfectly from the first prompt. The reality: you build agents brick by brick, each one learning from the previous context layer. This is why their forecasting works—because 27 agents watching different signals together create accuracy that one "smart" agent can't. Pilot conversion at scale requires deliberately small scope: Single-digit pilot-to-production rates happen because teams scope too big. AskElephant's 85% conversion comes from "dream big, implement small." First pilot: automated CRM notes. Then: notes humans wish they'd written. Then: automated field updates. Each step saves minutes, builds trust, proves value. Woody's framework: if you're not saving one minute per person per day in your first pilot, you've scoped wrong. The goal isn't to wow with ambition—it's to ship something that works perfectly, then expand from proven trust. Their customers average 27 hours saved per week per person, but none started there. Revenue outcome systems emerge from tool sprawl failure: Every revenue leader uses 15-20 disconnected tools trying to make revenue predictable. The category insight isn't "operating systems"—it's that companies care about outcomes, not operations. AskElephant's positioning: we focus on the outcome (predictable revenue), not just the operating infrastructure. This distinction matters because it shifts the conversation from technical plumbing to business results. When creating categories, find the frame that makes the buyer's problem visceral and your solution inevitable, even if you're solving similar problems as others in the space. Partner-led GTM turns consultants into distribution: AskElephant's entire growth came through partners: Salesforce/HubSpot consultants becoming AI strategists, sales coaches extending from training to implementation. The unlock: these partners needed a way to deliver lasting value beyond slideware. Previously, a coach would train your team and leave. Now they implement AI systems that hold teams accountable to the training, creating longer engagements and better outcomes. For founders: identify services providers whose business model gets dramatically better by incorporating your product. They become your sales force because you make them more valuable to their clients. Hire for orchestration capability, not pure sales skill: Over half of AskElephant's non-engineering team uses Cursor daily. Woody hires "ops-minded" and "tech-minded" sellers who can manage AI agents alongside human work. The old model: silver-tongued seller + solutions engineer + 27 support people. The new model: one seller orchestrating 27 AI agents. These reps don't build lists, don't create SOWs, don't write product scopes, don't need SEs for demos. But they still need human connection skills—listening, curiosity, presence. The hiring filter: can this person think in systems and implement technical solutions while maintaining high-touch relationships? If they can't code enough to orchestrate agents, they can't scale in this environment. // Sponsors: Front Lines — We help B2B tech companies launch, manage, and grow podcasts that drive demand, awareness, and thought leadership. www.FrontLines.io The Global Talent Co. — We help tech startups find, vet, hire, pay, and retain amazing marketing talent that costs 50-70% less than the US & Europe. www.GlobalTalent.co // Don't Miss: New Podcast Series — How I Hire Senior GTM leaders share the tactical hiring frameworks they use to build winning revenue teams. Hosted by Andy Mowat, who scaled 4 unicorns from $10M to $100M+ ARR and launched Whispered to help executives find their next role. Subscribe here: https://open.spotify.com/show/53yCHlPfLSMFimtv0riPyM

"Il ne faut pas que l'humain se dédouane de son rôle" Le D.E.V. de la semaine est Jocelyn N'takpe, Head of Engineering et Head of Architecture chez ManoMano. Avec l'explosion des outils IA dans le quotidien des devs, Jocelyn partage comment ManoMano intègre Claude Code, Cursor et JetBrains AI pour amplifier la productivité tout en gardant une culture de la revue humaine. Il alerte sur la nécessité de former les juniors à un usage réfléchi des LLM, pour ne pas casser la chaîne d'apprentissage collective. L'IA ne remplace pas mais transforme profondément le métier, poussant à réinventer la formation, la documentation et la transmission des bonnes pratiques. Une discussion sans tabou sur l'humain « in the loop » et le danger de déléguer sans contrôle.Chapitrages00:00:54 : Introduction à l'IA dans le développement00:01:56 : Présentation de Jocelyn00:02:45 : Mano Mano et son environnement tech00:04:40 : Adoption de GitHub Copilot00:06:11 : Multiplication des outils d'IA00:07:44 : L'impact de Cloud Code00:12:40 : Formation des agents IA00:12:53 : Standardisation et autonomie des équipes00:14:49 : Résistance au changement dans le développement00:16:58 : Adoption des nouveaux outils00:22:41 : L'importance de la sécurité00:42:15 : L'humain dans le processus de développement00:46:00 : Valeur ajoutée des développeurs face à l'IA00:52:56 : Impact sur les développeurs seniors et juniors00:58:54 : Les défis des développeurs juniors01:05:55 : L'apprentissage et l'utilisation des LLM01:08:06 : Conclusion sur l'avenir des développeurs et de l'IA Liens évoqués pendant l'émission Serena MCPMCP playwrite (pour tester sur l'UI)Le jour où l'Homme a battu la machine. Video Micode: La Fabrique à idiotsVideo DeepMind: The thinking game 🎙️ Soutenez le podcast If This Then Dev ! 🎙️ Chaque contribution aide à maintenir et améliorer nos épisodes. Cliquez ici pour nous soutenir sur Tipeee 🙏Archives | Site | Boutique | TikTok | Discord | Twitter | LinkedIn | Instagram | Youtube | Twitch | Job Board |Hébergé par Audiomeans. Visitez audiomeans.fr/politique-de-confidentialite pour plus d'informations.

In this episode, Eric Malzone sits down with Mark Fisher to dig into the messy, exciting reality of AI for brick-and-mortar gym owners, from overhyped agents and AI bubbles to very real, practical use cases that actually move the needle for local fitness businesses. TAKEAWAYS​

Is Slack just a chat app, or is it becoming the command line for the agentic future? Andrew sits down with Kurtis Kemple, Senior Director of DevRel at Slack, to discuss the platform's evolution into an "agentic work operating system" where humans and bots collaborate in real-time. They explore the concept of "leaky prompts," how to harness unstructured chat data to drive automation, and share practical advice on how engineering leaders can start deploying their own custom agents to reclaim their time.Watch the Vibe Coding Session: If you enjoyed this conversation, subscribe to the Dev Interrupted YouTube Channel to watch Andrew and Kurtis vibe code together!LinearBUnify your Copilot and Cursor impact metricsFollow the show:Subscribe to our Substack Follow us on LinkedInSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelLeave us a ReviewFollow the hosts:Follow AndrewFollow BenFollow DanFollow today's guest:Slack for Developers: api.slack.comSalesforce Agentforce: Learn more about AgentforceBolt for JavaScript: Slack's FrameworkConnect with Kurtis on LinkedIn OFFERS Start Free Trial: Get started with LinearB's AI productivity platform for free. Book a Demo: Learn how you can ship faster, improve DevEx, and lead with confidence in the AI era. LEARN ABOUT LINEARB AI Code Reviews: Automate reviews to catch bugs, security risks, and performance issues before they hit production. AI & Productivity Insights: Go beyond DORA with AI-powered recommendations and dashboards to measure and improve performance. AI-Powered Workflow Automations: Use AI-generated PR descriptions, smart routing, and other automations to reduce developer toil. MCP Server: Interact with your engineering data using natural language to build custom reports and get answers on the fly.

Anish Acharya is a General Partner at Andreessen Horowitz (a16z), where he leads consumer and fintech investing at Series A. He serves on the boards of standout portfolio companies including Deel, Mosaic, Clutch, Titan, and HappyRobot and has led early bets in companies like Runway and Carbonated. Before a16z, he founded and exited two startups—Snowball (acquired by Credit Karma) and SocialDeck (acquired by Google) and scaled Credit Karma's U.S. Card business to over 100 million members. AGENDA: 00:03 - Why building an AI company today requires being in San Francisco 06:58 - The "SaaS Apocalypse" myth: Why "vibe coding" everything is a lie 09:11 - How AI agents are finally breaking the lock-in of legacy software providers 10:13 - Incumbents vs. Startups: Who actually wins the AI distribution war? 14:39 - Why the developer tool market looks more like Cloud than Uber and Lyft 22:43 - The death of the Chatbox? Why browse-based interfaces are still preferable 27:14 - Why power users are 10x more valuable in the age of AI consumption 28:36 - Do margins matter in a world of AI? 34:46 - Why we are definitively not in an AI bubble right now 38:58 - Why the Legal and Customer Support industries will have dozens of winners 39:44 - Lessons from Marc Andreessen: Why the "quality of being right" supersedes process 44:51 - Is "Triple, Triple, Double, Double" dead? The new physics of growth 01:10:41 - The a16z Playbook: How to win 100% of the deals you chase    

Dhruv and Ravi are back to talk about the rise of agentic AI — their experience with Claude Code and Cursor, what agents actually are, and why they think a tsunami is coming for software engineers and knowledge workers. The Tsunami Warning The feeling since late 2025 — prapancham roju roju ki maripotundi The COVID masks analogy — we are those people now Why the folks back home aren't feeling it yet Timeline — How We Got Here GPT-2 (2020) → ChatGPT (2022) → Cursor (2023) → Claude Code & Opus 4.5 (2025) The Evolution of AI Coding Chat interface — copy-paste snippets from ChatGPT Assisted coding — Cursor tab-complete, you drive, model navigates Agentic coding — the agent drives, you're the passenger Cursor vs Claude Code — why Claude Code wins The Autopilot vs FSD analogy WTF is a Model? Giant N-dimensional matrices with weights Text in, everything out Bigger model, better responses WTF is an Agent? Model = brain, Agent = human Agent uses the model to operate tools — like a robot with a task Inference and Context Engineering Sessions, prompting, context windows SWE = Context Engineering + Verification Engineering Memory, Skills, and the Matrix Kung-Fu analogy Agent Harnesses Claude Code, Cursor, Agent SDKs Programming in English It's fun, addictive, and an art Communication skills over coding skills Good taste, strong architecture, trash your prior beliefs My Thesis — And How It Was Wrong Thought it'd hit "IT workers" first, not Big Tech But the tsunami hits the coast first — US and Big Tech have closed loops Tesla car Dharavi slums lo nadavadhu — we paved 6-lane roads for AI Knowledge Work, Manufacturing and Farming Any work where you can "close the loop" is at risk Manufacturing with QC — robots were always there, programming them was hard Farming — mostly done What is Still Scarce? Ideas, customer acquisition, creative content, land Creating software is no longer scarce Ippudu Em Cheyyamantaru Saar? We don't need SWEs, we need builders Product sense, distributed systems, build-sell-ship quickly The existential dread — we don't have 10 years, or 5, or even 2 Collective mental health crisis and economic reshaping ahead The fire storm is coming

In this episode of Run the Numbers, CJ Gustafson sits down with Dan Miller, CFO at RightRev. They unpack why leasing is underused in software, how RevTech emerged, and why revenue recognition may be the next AI battleground. Dan also shares how he evaluates durable growth vs. hypergrowth.—SPONSORS:Rillet is an AI-native ERP built for modern finance teams that want to close faster without fighting legacy systems. Designed to support complex revenue recognition, multi-entity operations, and real-time reporting, Rillet helps teams achieve a true zero-day close—with some customers closing in hours, not days. If you're scaling on an ERP that wasn't built in the 90s, book a demo at https://www.rillet.com/cjTabs is an AI-native revenue platform that unifies billing, collections, and revenue recognition for companies running usage-based or complex contracts. By bringing together ERP, CRM, and real product usage data into a single system of record, Tabs eliminates manual reconciliations and speeds up close and cash collection. Companies like Cortex, Statsig, and Cursor trust Tabs to scale revenue efficiently. Learn more at https://www.tabs.com/runAbacum is a modern FP&A platform built by former CFOs to replace slow, consultant-heavy planning tools. With self-service integrations and AI-powered workflows for forecasting, variance analysis, and scenario modeling, Abacum helps finance teams scale without becoming software admins. Trusted by teams at Strava, Replit, and JG Wentworth—learn more at https://www.abacum.aiBrex is an intelligent finance platform that combines corporate cards, built-in expense management, and AI agents to eliminate manual finance work. By automating expense reviews and reconciliations, Brex gives CFOs more time for the high-impact work that drives growth. Join 35,000+ companies like Anthropic, Coinbase, and DoorDash at https://www.brex.com/metricsMetronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That's why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.comRightRev is an automated revenue recognition platform built for modern pricing models like usage-based pricing, bundles, and mid-cycle upgrades. RightRev lets companies scale monetization without slowing down close or compliance. For RevRec that keeps growth moving, visit https://www.rightrev.com—LINKS: Dan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danmillercpa/RightRev: https://www.rightrev.com/CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/Mostly metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com—TIMESTAMPS:00:00:00 Preview and Intro00:02:41 Why Operating Experience Matters for CFOs00:04:08 Defining Durable Growth00:06:06 Snowflake and Consumption Revenue Complexity00:10:17 Forecasting in Consumption Models00:11:29 AI's Role in Revenue Forecasting00:12:14 Sponsors — Rillet | Tabs | Abacus AI00:15:39 Comping Sales in Usage-Based Models00:18:15 Leasing as a Software Monetization Tool00:20:47 The CFO's Role in Sales and GTM00:22:29 How CFOs Help Close Deals00:24:14 Rev Tech vs RevOps00:26:20 Sponsors — Brex | Metronome | RightRev00:29:40 Where AI Actually Helps Rev Rec00:31:55 Deterministic vs Probabilistic AI00:33:05 Why Enterprises Hesitate on AI Agents00:34:18 Startups vs Incumbents in the AI Race00:35:13 FOMO, Overfunding, and Market Distortions00:38:13 CFO Playbooks Without Hypergrowth00:39:38 Finding PMF as a CFO00:41:15 Career Advice: Growth vs Shiny Objects00:42:00 Building the CEO–CFO Relationship00:42:49 Learning Beyond the Back Office00:43:22 Lightning Round00:44:28 Advice to My Younger Self00:45:09 Finance Tech Stack00:46:36 Credits

"I didn't use my own software this week because the OpenAI agents were better. And that's me retiring my own software." — Keith TeareSomething broke this week. Both Anthropic and OpenAI launched multi-agent systems—"agent swarms"—that don't just assist with tasks but replace custom-built software entirely. The market noticed: Adobe, Salesforce, Workday, and other legacy SaaS companies saw their stocks collapse in what some are calling a trillion-dollar selloff. Keith Teare joins Andrew Keen on Super Bowl weekend to unpack what may be the most consequential week in AI since ChatGPT launched.The conversation ranges from the Anthropic-OpenAI advertising spat (Dario Amodei's Super Bowl ad vs. Sam Altman's "online tantrum") to the deeper structural shifts: Microsoft and Amazon becoming utilities, Google betting $185 billion on an AI-first pivot, and Elon Musk merging SpaceX with xAI to put data centers in space. Along the way, Teare and Keen debate whether the AI race is a myth or a wacky race, whether venture capital is in crisis, and what happens to human labor when agents do the work.About the GuestKeith Teare is a British-American entrepreneur, investor, and technology analyst. He co-founded RealNames Corporation, a pioneering internet company, and later served as Executive Chairman of TechCrunch. He is the founder of That Was The Week and SignalRank, and publishes a widely-read weekly newsletter on technology, venture capital, and the business of innovation. He brings four decades of experience in Silicon Valley to his analysis of the AI revolution.Chapters:00:00 Super Bowl and the Anthropic ad The spat between Dario Amodei and Sam Altman01:09 "Fundamentally dishonest" Keith's take on the ad war and who's really Dick Dastardly05:47 Anthropic's breakout week Claude Opus 4.6 and the agent swarm launch06:48 OpenAI Codex Multiple agents collaborating on tasks in 10-15 minutes07:42 "It replaces software" Keith retires his own custom-built tools08:16 The trillion-dollar selloff Adobe, Salesforce, Workday, PayPal collapse11:02 Infrastructure vs. innovation Microsoft and Amazon become "utilities"11:45 Google's $185 billion bet Pivoting from hybrid to AI-first13:15 The SpaceX/xAI merger Musk's plan for space-based data centers15:18 The AI wacky race Kimi, OpenAI, Anthropic leapfrog Google17:03 Does AI make us smarter? Leverage tools, not intelligence18:53 AI growing up, CEOs not The adolescence of the industry21:06 US job openings hit five-year low The coming labor crisis22:44 The VC crisis Five funds sucking the air out of the room25:04 Palantir and Anduril The winners in defense AI25:42 Facebook as laggard Huge revenues, no AI momentum26:41 The Washington Post crisis "Boogeyman journalism" and partisan media29:23 Ads in AI Paid links vs. enshittification31:26 Spotify's innovation Physical book + audiobook bundle32:32 Startup of the week Cursor for CRM, $20M from Sequoia33:45 Om Malik on the end of software distribution From CDs to app stores to self-made35:41 Super Bowl prediction Seattle vs. New England36:02 Closing "That really was the week in tech"Links & ReferencesMentioned in this episode:That Was The Week newsletter by Keith TeareAnthropic's Super Bowl ad and ad-free pledge (CNBC)Sam Altman's response to Anthropic ads (TechCrunch)SpaceX acquires xAI in $1.25 trillion merger (CNBC)The Washington Post layoffs and crisis (Poynter)Om Malik on the evolution of software distributionOpenAI Codex app launch (OpenAI)About Keen On America Nobody asks more impertinent questions than the Anglo-American writer, filmmaker and SiliconValley entrepreneur Andrew Keen. In Keen On America , Andrew brings his sharp Transatlanticwit to the forces reshaping the United States — hosting daily interviews with leading thinkersand writers about American history, politics, technology, culture, and business. With nearly2,800 episodes since the show launched on TechCrunch in 2010, Keen On America is the mostprolific intellectual interview show in the history of podcasting.Website | Substack | YouTube

In this episode of DataTalks.Club, Paul Iusztin, founding AI engineer and author of the LLM Engineer's Handbook, breaks down the transition from traditional software development to production-grade AI engineering. We explore the essential skill stack for 2026, the shift from "PoC purgatory" to shipping real products, and why the future of the field belongs to the full-stack generalist.You'll learn about:- Why the role is evolving into the "new software engineer" and how to own the full product lifecycle.- Identifying when to use traditional ML (like XGBoost) over LLMs to avoid over-engineering.- The architectural shift from fine-tuning to mastering data pipelines and semantic search.- Reliable Agentic Workflows- How to use coding assistants like Claude and Cursor to act as an architect rather than just a coder.- Why human-in-the-loop evaluation is the most critical bottleneck in shipping reliable AI.- How to build a "Second Brain" portfolio project that proves your end-to-end engineering value.Links:- Course link: https: https://academy.towardsai.net/courses/agent-engineering?ref=b3ab31- Decoding AI Magazine: https://www.decodingai.com/TIMECODES:00:00 From code to cars: Paul's journey to AI07:08 Deep learning and the autonomous driving challenge12:09 The transition to global product engineering15:13 Survival guide: Data science vs. AI engineering22:29 The full-stack AI engineer skill stack29:12 Mastering RAG and knowledge management32:27 The generalist edge: Learning with AI42:21 Technical pillars for shipping AI products54:05 Portfolio secrets and the "second brain"58:01 The future of the LLM engineer's handbookThis talk is designed for software engineers, data scientists, and ML engineers looking to move beyond proof-of-concepts and master the engineering rigors of shipping AI products in a production environment. It is particularly valuable for those aiming for founding or lead AI roles in startups.Connect with Paul- Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/pauliusztin/- Website - https://www.pauliusztin.ai/Connect with DataTalks.Club:- Join the community - https://datatalks.club/slack.html- Subscribe to our Google calendar to have all our events in your calendar - https://calendar.google.com/calendar/r?cid=ZjhxaWRqbnEwamhzY3A4ODA5azFlZ2hzNjBAZ3JvdXAuY2FsZW5kYXIuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbQ- Check other upcoming events - https://lu.ma/dtc-events- GitHub: https://github.com/DataTalksClub- LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/datatalks-club/ - Twitter - https://twitter.com/DataTalksClub - Website - https://datatalks.club/

In this episode of Run the Numbers, CJ sits down with Brett Queener, Managing Director at Bonfire Ventures, to trace the origins of ARR and examine how new revenue models are reshaping B2B software. Drawing on Brett's time at Salesforce and SmartRecruiters, they explore the shift from annual contracts to outcome-based pricing, what it means for forecasting and gtm strategy, and where the next major inflection points in SaaS are likely to emerge.—SPONSORS:RightRev is an automated revenue recognition platform built for modern pricing models like usage-based pricing, bundles, and mid-cycle upgrades. RightRev lets companies scale monetization without slowing down close or compliance. For RevRec that keeps growth moving, visit https://www.rightrev.comRillet is an AI-native ERP built for modern finance teams that want to close faster without fighting legacy systems. Designed to support complex revenue recognition, multi-entity operations, and real-time reporting, Rillet helps teams achieve a true zero-day close—with some customers closing in hours, not days. If you're scaling on an ERP that wasn't built in the 90s, book a demo at https://www.rillet.com/cjTabs is an AI-native revenue platform that unifies billing, collections, and revenue recognition for companies running usage-based or complex contracts. By bringing together ERP, CRM, and real product usage data into a single system of record, Tabs eliminates manual reconciliations and speeds up close and cash collection. Companies like Cortex, Statsig, and Cursor trust Tabs to scale revenue efficiently. Learn more at https://www.tabs.com/runAbacum is a modern FP&A platform built by former CFOs to replace slow, consultant-heavy planning tools. With self-service integrations and AI-powered workflows for forecasting, variance analysis, and scenario modeling, Abacum helps finance teams scale without becoming software admins. Trusted by teams at Strava, Replit, and JG Wentworth—learn more at https://www.abacum.aiBrex is an intelligent finance platform that combines corporate cards, built-in expense management, and AI agents to eliminate manual finance work. By automating expense reviews and reconciliations, Brex gives CFOs more time for the high-impact work that drives growth. Join 35,000+ companies like Anthropic, Coinbase, and DoorDash at https://www.brex.com/metricsMetronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That's why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.com—LINKS: Brett on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brettqueener/Brett's Substack: https://queener.substack.com/CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/Mostly metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.comThe Staffing Ratios Salesforce Used, with Brett Queener of Bonfire VChttps://youtu.be/lJVgstAXjJs—TIMESTAMPS:00:02:54 Welcome Brett & episode setup00:03:51 On-prem software to SaaS00:05:54 Salesforce & recurring revenue00:07:15 On-prem costs & partner bloat00:09:58 Contracts, control & comp shifts00:14:15 Lock-in, renewals & SaaS drift00:16:20 Sponsors — RightRev | Rillet | Tabs00:19:48 From buying to hiring software00:21:59 Agents change pricing & planning00:25:59 Forecasting without ARR00:28:03 Talent models break00:29:45 Sponsors — Abacum | Brex | Metronome00:33:01 Rethinking sales & comp00:36:47 Selling by doing the job00:40:50 The future role of sales00:46:10 Zombie SaaS & category collapse00:51:07 Context as the moat00:56:07 Where AI hits next00:58:44 Vertical AI & hidden TAMs01:02:12 $1B startups vs mega rounds01:05:48 Dilution, fund math & pressure01:08:03 Choosing your founder path

We're continuing our AI Tools series with Marcos Polanco, engineering leader, founder, and ecosystem builder from the Bay Area, who joins Matt and Moshe to introduce CLEAR, his method for using AI to build real software, not just demos. Drawing on decades in software development and his recent research into how AI is reshaping the way teams ship products, Marcos shares how CLEAR gives both technical and non‑technical builders a production‑oriented way to work with vibe coding tools.Instead of treating AI like a magical black box, Marcos frames it as an “idiot savant”: incredibly capable and eager, but with no judgment. CLEAR wraps that raw power in structure, guardrails, and engineering discipline, so founders and PMs can go from prototype to production while keeping humans in control of the last, hardest 20%.Join Matt, Moshe, and Marcos as they explore:Marcos's journey through engineering, founding, and AI research, and why he created CLEARWhy AI tools like Bolt, Cursor, Claude, and Gemini are fabulous for prototypes but risky for production without a methodCLEAR in detail:C – Context: onboarding AI like a new hire, using stories and behavior‑driven design (BDD) to articulate requirementsL – Layout: breaking work into focused, scoped pieces and choosing a tech stack so AI isn't overwhelmedE – Execute: applying test‑driven development (TDD), writing tests first, then having AI write code to pass themA – Assess: using a second, independent LLM as a QA agent, plus a human‑run 5 Whys to fix root causes upstreamR – Run: shipping to users, gathering new data, and feeding it back into the next iteration of contextHow CLEAR lowers cognitive load for both humans and AIs and reduces regressions and hallucinationsWhy Markdown (with diagrams like Mermaid) is becoming Marcos's standard format for shared human–AI documentationHow CLEAR changes the coordination layer of software development while keeping engineers central to quality and judgmentPractical advice for PMs and founders who want to move from “just vibes” to predictable, production‑grade AI developmentAnd much more!Want to go deeper on CLEAR or connect with Marcos?CLEAR on GitHub: https://github.com/marcospolanco/ai-native-organizations/blob/main/CLEAR.mdCLEAR slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1mwwDtr7cCP5jLUyNVgGR5Aj-MBq8xsMlhSc0pvSQDks/edit?usp=sharingLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcospolancoYou can also connect with us and find more episodes:Product for Product Podcast: http://linkedin.com/company/product-for-product-podcastMatt Green: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattgreenproduct/Moshe Mikanovsky: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikanovskyNote: Any views mentioned in the podcast are the sole views of our hosts and guests, and do not represent the products mentioned in any way.Please leave us a review and feedback ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

AI has successfully solved the blank page problem for developers, but it has created a massive new bottleneck downstream in the SDLC. LinearB CEO Ori Keren joins us to explain why 2026 will be a year of norming as organizations struggle to digest the flood of AI-generated code. In this annual prediction episode, he details why upstream velocity gains are being lost to chaos in reviews and testing. We also discuss why enterprises aren't ready to hand over the keys to autonomous agents and how to build dynamic pipelines based on risk.LinearB Access the AI code review metrics dashboardUnify your Copilot and Cursor impact metricsFollow the show:Subscribe to our Substack Follow us on LinkedInSubscribe to our YouTube ChannelLeave us a ReviewFollow the hosts:Follow AndrewFollow BenFollow DanFollow today's guest:Follow Ori on LinkedInOFFERS Start Free Trial: Get started with LinearB's AI productivity platform for free. Book a Demo: Learn how you can ship faster, improve DevEx, and lead with confidence in the AI era. LEARN ABOUT LINEARB AI Code Reviews: Automate reviews to catch bugs, security risks, and performance issues before they hit production. AI & Productivity Insights: Go beyond DORA with AI-powered recommendations and dashboards to measure and improve performance. AI-Powered Workflow Automations: Use AI-generated PR descriptions, smart routing, and other automations to reduce developer toil. MCP Server: Interact with your engineering data using natural language to build custom reports and get answers on the fly.

Fresh out of the studio, Patrick Kelly, Vice President for Asia Pacific at Arize AI, joins us to explore the critical world of AI observability, evaluation, and infrastructure and how Arize AI will start their go to market across the region. Beginning with his transition from Databricks to Arize AI, Patrick explained how the company's mission centers on making AI work for people by helping teams observe, evaluate, and continuously improve their AI agents in production. Emphasizing that evaluations are the most important requirement for AI systems in 2025-2026, he revealed a striking insight: approximately 50% of AI agents fail silently in production because organizations don't know what's happening. Through compelling case studies from Booking.com, Flipkart, and AT&T, Patrick explained how Arize AI enables real-time observability and online evaluations, achieving results like 40% accuracy improvements and 84% cost reductions. Patrick concluded by sharing his vision for success across Asia Pacific's diverse markets - from regulatory frameworks in Korea and Singapore to language localization challenges in Vietnam - emphasizing the three pillars that remain constant: helping customers make money, control costs, and manage risk in an era where AI governance has become paramount. Last but not least, he shares what great would look like for Arize AI in the Asia Pacific"The mission is to make AI work for the people. It's about getting AI working for everybody—consumers, customers, and businesses at large. Evals are the most important things that we've seen through 2025 and will see more of into 2026; they are the most important thing for systems to work. When I'm working with a customer, I ask: How are we going to help them make money? How are we going to help them control costs? And how are we going to help them manage risk? A lot of AI now is about managing risk."Episode Highlights: [00:00] Quote of the Day by Patrick Kelly[01:10] Bernard introduces AI evaluation and infrastructure topic[02:24] Patrick's journey from Databricks to Arize AI[03:20] Arize AI's mission: making AI work for people[04:00] Understanding agentic systems and their complexity[05:18] Observability, evaluation, and development framework explained[06:27] Creating continuous feedback loops for AI improvement[07:00] On-premises and air-gapped deployment capabilities[08:00] Open Telemetry and Open Inference standards[09:08] Evaluations are critical for 2025-2026 success[10:36] Booking.com case: real-time production AB testing[14:36] Phoenix open source and Open Inference: entry to Arize ecosystem[16:00] Travel industry use cases: Skyscanner and Flipkart[17:53] AT&T case: 40% accuracy improvement, 84% cost reduction[19:36] 50% of production agents fail silently[20:26] Korea and Singapore MAS launches AI risk management framework[22:08] Arize AI CEO's 10 predictions for AI 2026[22:41] Cursor for X: AI engineering everywhere[24:06] Context and session state matter critically[26:27] Harness: new buzzword for agent orchestration[34:13] Three pillars: make money, control costs, manage risk[36:00] Asia Pacific diversity: India to Japan[37:12] Language and cultural nuances in evaluations[38:00] ClosingProfile: Patrick Kelly, Vice President, Asia Pacific, Arize AILinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-kelly-aab6168/?ref=analyse.asiaPodcast Information: Bernard Leong hosts and produces the show. The proper credits for the intro and end music are "Energetic Sports Drive." G. Thomas Craig mixed and edited the episode in both video and audio format.

In this special CFO Explains episode of Run the Numbers, CJ Gustafson sits down with executive producer Ben Hillman to unpack the real history of EBITDA. From John Malone and cable TV to private equity, SaaS, and today's AI boom, CJ explains how a metric invented out of desperation became the default language of valuation—and how adjusted EBITDA can both clarify and distort the truth about a business.—SPONSORS:Metronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That's why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.comRightRev is an automated revenue recognition platform built for modern pricing models like usage-based pricing, bundles, and mid-cycle upgrades. RightRev lets companies scale monetization without slowing down close or compliance. For RevRec that keeps growth moving, visit https://www.rightrev.comRillet is an AI-native ERP built for modern finance teams that want to close faster without fighting legacy systems. Designed to support complex revenue recognition, multi-entity operations, and real-time reporting, Rillet helps teams achieve a true zero-day close—with some customers closing in hours, not days. If you're scaling on an ERP that wasn't built in the 90s, book a demo at https://www.rillet.com/cjTabs is an AI-native revenue platform that unifies billing, collections, and revenue recognition for companies running usage-based or complex contracts. By bringing together ERP, CRM, and real product usage data into a single system of record, Tabs eliminates manual reconciliations and speeds up close and cash collection. Companies like Cortex, Statsig, and Cursor trust Tabs to scale revenue efficiently. Learn more at https://www.tabs.com/runAbacum is a modern FP&A platform built by former CFOs to replace slow, consultant-heavy planning tools. With self-service integrations and AI-powered workflows for forecasting, variance analysis, and scenario modeling, Abacum helps finance teams scale without becoming software admins. Trusted by teams at Strava, Replit, and JG Wentworth—learn more at https://www.abacum.aiBrex is an intelligent finance platform that combines corporate cards, built-in expense management, and AI agents to eliminate manual finance work. By automating expense reviews and reconciliations, Brex gives CFOs more time for the high-impact work that drives growth. Join 35,000+ companies like Anthropic, Coinbase, and DoorDash at https://www.brex.com/metrics—LINKS: CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/Mostly metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.comSlacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/—RELATED EPISODES:How Much Revenue Do You Need to IPO in 2025?https://youtu.be/7ajWVCNVDmI—TIMESTAMPS:00:00:00 Intro00:01:17 The Origins of EBITDA00:06:48 Sponsors — Metronome | RightRev | Rillet00:10:12 The Mechanics of EBITDA00:13:46 Impact on Other Industries00:15:38 The Many Faces of EBITDA00:19:09 Sponsors  — Tabs | Abacum | Brex00:22:30 EBITDA's AI Encore00:24:56 Wrap Up00:28:19 Credits#RunTheNumbersPodcast #CFOExplains #EBITDA #FinancePodcast #BusinessMetrics