Podcast appearances and mentions of Kevin Scott

I interviewed Microsoft CTO Kevin Scott about the future of agents and software engineering for another special edition of AI & I. With 41 years of programming behind him, Kevin has lived through nearly every big shift in modern software development. Here's his clear-eyed take on what's changing with AI, and how we can navigate what's next:The real breakthrough for the agentic web is better plumbing. Kevin thinks agents won't be useful until they can take action on your behalf by using tools and fetching data. To do this, agents need access across your systems—and Microsoft's answer is adopting Model Context Protocol, or “MCP,” that allows an agent to access tools and fresh data beyond its knowledge base, as their standard protocol for agents to move through contexts and get things done.How the agentic web echoes the early internet. Just as protocols like HTTP and HTML gave the web a shared language, Kevin believes the  agentic web needs its own infrastructure—the first glimpses of this include MCP (the HTTP of agents) and NLWeb, Microsoft's push to make websites legible to agents (similar to what HTML did for browsers).Open ecosystems can coexist with strong security systems. Kevin argues that the “tradeoff” between ecosystems that allow “permissionless” innovation and robust security is a false dichotomy. With AI agents that understand your personal risk preferences—and know your communication habits across email, text, and other channels—they could detect when something suspicious is happening and act on your behalf. The craftsman's dilemma in the age of agents. Kevin is a lifelong maker—of software, ceramics, even handmade bags—and he cares deeply about how things are made. Because this can feel at odds with coding with AI agents, Kevin's approach is to notice where the process matters most to him, and where it's okay to optimize for outcomes. After four decades of seeing breakthrough technologies, his advice is simple: be curious, try stuff, and use it if it works for you.The future of software engineering agents is plural. Kevin believes the future of software engineering agents will be diverse because developers who enjoy the freedom of playing with different tools is one of the most consistent patterns he's seen in his decades in tech. What will drive this diversity, he says, is builders who deeply understand specific problems and tailor agents to solve them exceptionally well.How agentic workflows will evolve. Kevin sees a shift from short back-and-forth interactions with agents to longer, async feedback loops. As the agentic web matures and model reasoning improves, people will start handing off bigger, more ambitious tasks and letting agents run with them.Timestamps:Introduction: 00:01:44The race to close the “capability overhang”: 00:02:49How agents will evolve into practical, useful tools: 00:04:31The role Kevin sees Microsoft playing in the agent ecosystem: 00:06:48How robust security measures can coexist with open ecosystems: 00:12:05Kevin's philosophy on being a craftsman in the age of agents: 00:15:39How the landscape of software development agents will evolve: 00:20:52The future of agentic workflows: 00:25:33

Today, I'm talking with Kevin Scott, the chief technology officer of Microsoft, and one of the company's AI leaders. Kevin is one of my favorite repeat Decoder guests, and he joined the show this time to talk about the future of search.  Microsoft just announced an open-source tool for websites to integrate AI powered natural language search with just a little bit of effort, in a way that lets them actually run whatever models they want and keep control of their data. I saw some demos before Kevin and I chatted, and the improvements over the bad local search on most sites was obvious. So we talked about what this will mean for AI, for search engines, and for the future of the web.  Links:  Microsoft's plan to fix the web: letting every website run AI search for cheap | Verge Introducing the Model Context Protocol | Anthropic Copyright Office head fired after reporting AI training isn't always fair use | Ars Technica Microsoft CTO Kevin Scott on how AI and art will coexist in the future | Decoder Microsoft CTO Kevin Scott thinks Sydney might make a comeback | Decoder Microsoft's CTO explains how AI can help health care in the US right now | Vergecast Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/669409 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Kevin Scott, General Manager of Public Safety at Bi-State Development joins to talk about where stands on new secure plan and other measures that are being taken for safety on public transportation.

In this hour Marc is joined by Missouri Governor Mike Kehoe to talk about the cleanup in the city after Friday tornado and some bills that he has on his desk waiting for a signature. Kevin Scott, General Manager of Public Safety at Bi-State Development joins to talk about where stands on new secure plan and other measures that are being taken for safety on public transportation. Plus Oklahoma high school students will now learn about misinformation about 2020 election.

Today on the Marc Cox Morning Show; Hans von Spakovsky, Senior Legal Fellow at the Heritage Foundation joins to talk about to talk about the Supreme Court injunctions and his thoughts on what was talked about with Kim on a Whim. Missouri Governor Mike Kehoe joins the show to talk about the cleanup in the city after Friday tornado and some bills that he has on his desk waiting for a signature. Kevin Scott, General Manager of Public Safety at Bi-State Development joins to talk about where stands on new secure plan and other measures that are being taken for safety on public transportation. Major Adam Moore, Greater St. Louis Area Commander for Salvation Army joins to talk about the cleanup effort and how can people help after Friday tornado. KMOX Sports Director, Tom Ackerman joins to talk about the Battlehawks hosting conference Championship game and the hot stretch by the Cardinals. Plus Nicole Murray, Kim on a Whim and In Other News.

Today we are joined by Kevin Scott of Muskoka Landscapers and The Wealthy Landscaper. He talks with us about his businesses that are vertically integrated with his landscaping business, employees and the importance of culture, as well as his sales process.Sponsors:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Cycle CPA⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠PatioSEO.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Knowledge Tree Consulting⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠How to Hardscape Headquarters

In this episode of the Positive Leadership Podcast, I sit down with Rana el Kaliouby, AI scientist, entrepreneur, investor and thought leader in the field of artificial emotional intelligence. From growing up in Cairo to studying at MIT and co-founding Affectiva, Rana has spent her career bridging the gap between human emotions and technology. Today, as Deputy CEO at Smart Eye and founder of the ethical AI venture fund Blue Tulip, she continues to champion a more empathetic, inclusive, and human-centered approach to innovation. Together, they explore: Why emotional intelligence matters more than ever in today's AI-driven world How leaders can foster trust, diversity, and belonging through empathy What it means to be a humanist in a digital age Rana's story is one of bold vision, resilience, and a deep belief in technology as a force for good. 

Kevin Scott and Eric Blumenthal discuss the challenges of fatherhood, emphasizing the importance of community, inner peace, and effective parenting strategies. They explore how decision fatigue, overscheduling, and the need for strong partnerships can impact a father's ability to maintain peace at home. The conversation highlights practical steps dads can take to prioritize their well-being and create a positive environment for their children. Chapters 00:00 The Importance of Community for Dads02:18 Finding Inner Peace as a Parent06:31 The Impact of Overscheduling on Family Life09:20 Managing Tension and Demonstrating Peace12:27 Setting the Tone: Being the Thermostat15:30 Building Strong Partnerships for Peace18:13 Prioritizing What Matters Most21:32 The Power of Presence in ParentingSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Immerse yourself in captivating science fiction short stories, delivered daily! Explore futuristic worlds, time travel, alien encounters, and mind-bending adventures. Perfect for sci-fi lovers looking for a quick and engaging listen each day.

Kevin Scott is the CTO of Microsoft, where he leads the company's AI and technology strategy at global scale and played a pivotal role in Microsoft's partnership with OpenAI. Prior to Microsoft, Kevin spent six years at Linkedin as SVP of Engineering. Kevin has also enjoyed advisory positions with Pinterest, Box, Code.org and more.  In Today's Episode We Discuss: 04:10 Where is Enduring Value in a World of AI 10:53 Why Scaling Laws are BS 12:26 What is the Bottleneck Today: Data, Compute or Algorithms 15:38: In 10 Years Time: What % of Data Usage will be Synthetic 20:04 How Will AI Agents Evolve Over the Next Five Years 23:34: Deepseek Evalution: Do We Underestimate China 28:34 The Future of Software Development 31:53 The Thing That Most Excites Me in AI is Tech Debt 35:01 Leadership Lessons from Satya Nadella 41:13 Quickfire Round  

Book a Call with Joshua TODAY!Have you ever wondered how high-end landscaping companies close million-dollar deals with ease?If you're in the landscaping or outdoor living industry, you know that pricing, client education, and sales processes can make or break your business. Many clients underestimate costs, and without the right approach, you could lose out on major projects.In this episode, you'll discover: ✅ A sales strategy that eliminates sticker shock and builds trust from the start. ✅ How to leverage site visits and design phases to streamline project approvals. ✅ A game-changing follow-up method that turns past clients into referral machines.If you're ready to elevate your sales process, eliminate wasted time, and close more high-end landscaping projects, hit play now!

The Entertainers Book Interview with Kevin Scott. Buy Book from www.newcastlelegends.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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  Learn more about Kevin at : http://imdb.me/kevinscottallenBooks: Conquering the Film and Television Audition: www.amazon.com/dp/B019PQPPOA            Murder Can Be Fatal – A mystery novel www.amazon.com/dp/0997009462American Primeval – Check out Kevin's latest hit show on Netflix: www.netflix.com/rs/title/81457507? Show notes timestamps:

In this AMA episode of "Behind the Tech," Kevin Scott and Christina Warren address a variety of listener questions, ranging from the impact of AI on learning and personal projects to the future of software development and AI regulation. Kevin shares his experience using AI for personal projects, such as making Japanese tea bowls, and discusses how AI has changed the way he approaches both work and hobbies. The conversation also touches on the potential for AI to reshape software development, with Kevin emphasizing the significant changes AI will bring to the field and the importance of adapting to these changes.    The episode also explores broader topics, such as the regulation of AI, the challenges of scaling AI in regions with limited technological infrastructure, and the role of creative leaders in the era of AI. Kevin highlights the need for consistent and agile regulation to ensure the safe and beneficial deployment of AI technologies. He also discusses the democratization of AI tools and the importance of connectivity in enabling access to these technologies. The episode concludes with a discussion on the evolving definition of a technologist and the blurring lines between technology and creativity, emphasizing the importance of human involvement in AI-driven art and innovation.    Kevin Scott   Behind the Tech with Kevin Scott   Discover and listen to other Microsoft podcasts.    

On this episode we dive into all things low end with bassist Kevin Scott. Kevin is one of the most in demand bassists working today. He currently tours with Gov't Mule, but has worked with a plethora of extremely talented artists such as: Colonel Bruce Hampton, Jimmy Herring & Wane Krantz. As of very recent, he also brings some serious heat with Rick Lollar and Josh Dion in and around NYC! I can't wait to hear Kevin's story! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Michele Elam, the William Robertson Coe Professor of Humanities in the English Department at Stanford University and a Race and Technology Affiliate at the Center for Comparative Studies in Race and Ethnicity, joins Behind the Tech to discuss her journey and work. Michele shares her unique path from a humanities background to engaging with technology and AI, influenced by her father's career as an astronautics engineer.  In this episode, Michele and Kevin explore the intersection of humanities and technology, discussing the importance of interdisciplinary collaboration and the ethical considerations of AI. They delve into Michele's work at the Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence at Stanford, where she represents arts and diversity perspectives. The conversation also touches on the cultural status of arts versus technology, the impact of storytelling in shaping cultural imagination, and the evolving education of engineering students to include social and ethical questions.   Kevin and Michele reflect on the balance between deep expertise and broad curiosity, the role of arts in technology, and the importance of integrating different perspectives to address complex societal issues. They also discuss the significance of tradition and innovation, drawing insights from Kevin's recent trip to Japan where he observed the coexistence of advanced technology and centuries-old crafts.  Michele Elam  Kevin Scott    Behind the Tech with Kevin Scott    Discover and listen to other Microsoft podcasts.    

Guest: Emilie Choi, president & COO of CoinbaseAfter the collapse of FTX in 2022, “the whole industry was tarnished,” recalls Coinbase COO Emilie Choi. “Politicians came out criticizing crypto, saying it was a fraud.”But unlike FTX, Coinbase was a public company in the U.S. So when the SEC served it a Wells notice, announcing its intent to charge the company with violating securities laws, the executive team took an unusual step: They went on the offensive, publicly calling BS on the agency.“Well-regarded CEOs from TradFi, they were like, ‘You don't do that,'” Emilie says. “'You don't antagonize your regulator.' ... It was a combination of chutzpah and maybe desperation that we were like, ‘We have to go tell our story, because if we don't, nobody else will.'”Chapters: (01:14) - Working with founder CEOs (04:12) - Mission first (07:16) - Reviewing candidates (09:48) - Unusual hiring (11:22) - Crypto after FTX (16:29) - Operation Choke Point 2.0 (19:19) - Grin and bear it (21:24) - Channeling negativity (24:21) - Going to war with the SEC (26:20) - Donald Trump and Gary Gensler (28:38) - Was it worth it? (31:19) - Shipping challenges (34:03) - OKRs and personal goals (36:41) - Brian Armstrong and structure (40:56) - The COO guidebook (43:30) - Removing bureaucracy (46:50) - Investing in crypto (49:41) - After Coinbase (53:03) - Constantly on (54:53) - Favorite interview questions (56:28) - Who Coinbase is hiring (58:28) - Standing for something Mentioned in this episode: Google Chat, executive coaches, Mark Zuckerberg, LinkedIn, Jeff Weiner, speed reading, Warner Bros., Elizabeth Warren, Sam Bankman-Fried, Wells notices, Paul Grewal, Chris Lehane, Airbnb, OpenAI, FOIA requests, Balaji Srinivasan, Dan Romero, Kevin Scott, Microsoft, Patrick McHenry, Ritchie Torres, Fairshake PAC, A16z, Ripple, Stand With Crypto, Dogecoin, Robinhood, Charles Schwab, JPMorgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Paul Ryan, Faryar Shirzad, Kara Calvert, Elon Musk, Earn.com, Ben Horowitz, Bain Capital Ventures, Claire Hughes Johnson and Scaling People, Directly Responsible Individuals, Fidelity, BlackRock, Yahoo!, Stewart Butterfield, Brad Garlinghouse, Alibaba, Flickr, cognitive tests, and Loom.Links:Connect with EmilieTwitterLinkedInConnect with JoubinTwitterLinkedInEmail: grit@kleinerperkins.com Learn more about Kleiner PerkinsThis episode was edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod.fm

In this captivating episode of the Positive Leadership Podcast, I'm thrilled to welcome Charles Duhigg, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and author of The Power of Habit and Supercommunicator. Together, we dive, among other topics, into the science of habits, exploring how small behavioral changes can drive transformative leadership and fuel long-term success. Charles shares actionable insights on building better routines, fostering resilience, and creating a culture of innovation—essential tools for any positive leader aiming to inspire growth and impact. Looking for more inspiration? Listen to my conversation with Jeff Raikes, former CEO of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation: Combining Leadership and Philanthropy with Jeff Raikes Or my discussion with Kevin Scott, Microsoft's Chief Technology Officer: Empowering People with AI Subscribe now to JP's free monthly newsletter "Positive Leadership and You" on LinkedIn to transform your positive impact today: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/positive-leadership-you-6970390170017669121/

In this inspiring episode of the Positive Leadership Podcast, I'm joined by a leader who has redefined what it means to innovate in the world of industry and sustainability—Florent Menegaux, CEO of Michelin. Over the years, he has climbed the ranks to become a transformative leader, steering the company toward a bold vision: achieving 100% sustainable tire production by 2050. Under his guidance, Michelin has evolved far beyond tire manufacturing, positioning itself as a global leader in sustainable mobility. Florent's leadership is rooted in a deep commitment to innovation, environmental responsibility, and ethical practices. In today's episode, we delve into his visionary approach to transformation, exploring how he balances business growth with sustainability and how his leadership principles inspire positive impact across the globe. Join us for a thought-provoking discussion about the future of sustainable mobility, ethical leadership, and the power of transformation. Interested in similar episodes with other visionary leaders? Tune in to my conversation with Jeff Raikes, former CEO of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation: Combining Leadership and Philanthropy with Jeff Raikes - https://thepositiveleadershippodcast.buzzsprout.com/1798971/episodes/16177556-special-100th-episode-a-journey-of-leadership-and-giving-back-with-jeff-raikesOr my discussion with Kevin Scott, Microsoft's Chief Technology Officer: Empowering People with AI - https://thepositiveleadershippodcast.buzzsprout.com/1798971/episodes/14764673-empowering-people-with-ai-with-kevin-scottSubscribe now to JP's free monthly newsletter "Positive Leadership and You" on LinkedIn to transform your positive impact today: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/positive-leadership-you-6970390170017669121/

As 2024 comes to an end, we take a look back at some of the biggest themes that emerged on Behind the Tech over this incredibly exciting year for tech and AI: creativity, education, and transformation. And we take a stroll through some of Kevin's obsessions – from ceramics to Maker YouTube to classical piano – alongside guests like Xyla Foxlin, Lisa Su, Ben Laude, Ethan Mollick, Refik Anadol, and more.  Kevin Scott    Behind the Tech with Kevin Scott    Discover and listen to other Microsoft podcasts.    

In this milestone episode of the Positive Leadership Podcast, I'm joined by someone who has had a profound influence on my career and personal growth—Jeff Raikes. Jeff and I share a deep connection, having both spent significant time at Microsoft, where he became a legendary manager and mentor to me.From his early days at Microsoft in 1981 to his pivotal role as President of the Business Division, Jeff's leadership has been integral to the company's success. Beyond his Microsoft career, Jeff is known for his extraordinary philanthropic work. As the former CEO of the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation and co-founder of the Raikes Foundation with his wife Tricia, he has made a lasting impact in youth development, education, and addressing youth homelessness.In today's conversation, we dive into the principles of leadership that have guided Jeff throughout his career and explore how his commitment to making the world a better place continues to drive his work.Tune in for an insightful discussion on leadership, giving back, and the power of making a lasting difference.Interested in other similar episodes with great positive leaders?Don't miss my conversation with Yoshito Hori, founder of GLOBIS Corporation, GLOBIS University, and GLOBIS Capital Partners: https://thepositiveleadershippodcast.buzzsprout.com/1798971/episodes/16010088-combining-purpose-and-entrepreneurship-for-japan-s-future-with-yoshito-horiOr with Kevin Scott, Microsoft's chief technology officer: https://thepositiveleadershippodcast.buzzsprout.com/1798971/episodes/14764673-empowering-people-with-ai-with-kevin-scottSubscribe now to JP's free monthly newsletter "Positive Leadership and You" on LinkedIn to transform your positive impact today: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/positive-leadership-you-6970390170017669121/

Refik Anadol, an internationally renowned media artist and director, joins Behind the Tech to discuss his journey from a childhood fascination with computers in Istanbul to becoming a pioneer in the aesthetics of data and machine intelligence. In this episode, Refik shares his early inspirations—including his first encounter with a Commodore computer and the impact of science fiction on his imagination—and discusses how his work explores the intersection of art and technology.  Kevin and Refik delve into the challenges and possibilities that ubiquitous computing has imposed on humanity, and how the perception and experience of time and space are radically changing in the digital age. They explore Refik's innovative projects, such as data-driven machine learning algorithms that create abstract, colorful environments and his immersive audio/visual installations that transform entire buildings. They also discuss the significance of AI in art, the concept of 'data painting,' and the future of digital art in a rapidly evolving technological landscape.  Learn more and support these organizations in North Carolina:  John Britt Pottery  akira satake ceramics | GoFundMe  Mudtools  East Fork    Refik Anadol Studio | Refik Anadol Living Art  Kevin Scott    Behind the Tech with Kevin Scott    Discover and listen to other Microsoft podcasts.    

Rick talks with Sena Maddison, Eric Gilmore, Dan McFaul, Kevin Scott, D.C. Reeves, Mike Boettcher, and Darien Schaefer.  

UWF English Department Chair Dr. Kevin Scott discusses how the university prepares its students for the Artificial Intelligence (AI) age.  

Today we play a backstage interview from our recent Elevate Banking Forum in Birmingham, AL. We talk with Kevin Scott, one of our keynote speakers at the event, about what it looks like to create emotional connections both with your clients and employees.  The views, information, or opinions expressed during this show are solely those of the participants involved and do not necessarily represent those of SouthState Bank and its employees SouthState Bank, N.A. - Member FDIC

Reid reflects on his early exposure to AI as an undergraduate at Stanford and on navigating the space between academia and industry. Plus, he and Aria discuss human outcomes of technology—and how human-centered technologists such as Fei-Fei Li, Mustafa Suleyman, and Kevin Scott have helped him keep those outcomes top of mind. For more info on the podcast and transcripts of all the episodes, visit https://www.possible.fm/podcast/

Ben Laude, a concert pianist and music educator, joins Behind the Tech to discuss his journey from a suburban childhood in Austin, Texas to becoming a world-renowned classical pianist and YouTube creator. Ben shares his early inspirations—including his father's dabbling in piano and his own private obsession with classical music that began in high school—and discusses the importance of having a good teacher and the role of the early Internet in fueling his passion for piano.  In this episode, Kevin and Ben explore the impact of AI on art and artists, the significance of classical piano in Ben's life and his efforts to popularize classical piano through educational content. They discuss the challenges and rewards of pursuing a career in music, the magic of bringing encoded scores (musical notations that serve as instructions for how to perform the music) to life, and the importance of community and feedback in achieving success.  Ben Laude | Utah State University  Kevin Scott    Behind the Tech with Kevin Scott    Discover and listen to other Microsoft podcasts.    

An anti immigration protest on Saturday afternoon has resulted in three nights of violence across South Belfast. Several businesses have been attacked, including a supermarket owned by a Syrian refugee and one man has been seriously assaulted. With further protests planned for this weekend, policing is in the spotlight. Alison Morris is joined by Belfast Telegraph visuals editor, Kevin Scott. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In today's digital age, it's easy to overlook the power of a tangible message in your hand. That's why we're diving into the world of direct mail with Robert Lee, a seasoned digital marketing guru who knows how to make an impact beyond the screen. In this episode, we explore the often-untapped potential of direct mail in fundraising efforts. Robert brings his wealth of experience to the table, discussing the ins and outs of crafting a successful campaign that resonates with donors. We'll delve into the creative side of direct mail, where Robert reveals some of the most engaging and memorable strategies he's employed. From eye-catching postcards that pop in your mailbox to oversized mailers that stand out from the stack, he shares insights on how to grab attention and connect with people in a meaningful way. Whether you're a nonprofit looking to boost donations or a business seeking to build lasting relationships with customers, this conversation is packed with actionable tips to enhance your outreach. Join us as we uncover the secrets to making direct mail a fun and effective tool for your fundraising arsenal. What you'll learn: → Different types of direct mail and how to get started → Ways to track direct mail campaigns digitally → Integrating direct mail into the customer journey → Using data to personalize direct mail nurturing → Examples of effective political and nonprofit direct mail Want to skip ahead? Here are key takeaways: [06:02] The power of direct mail in building personal connections. Unlike emails or texts, receiving a physical letter or package can make someone feel special and valued. We discuss strategies for making your mail stand out and why this traditional form of communication still has a significant impact today. [10:56] Using QR codes on mail pieces to capture opt-in data. By including these on your mail pieces, you can bridge the gap between physical mail and digital convenience. Listeners will learn how QR codes can encourage recipients to opt-in for more information, allowing you to capture valuable data and grow your contact list effectively. [18:57] Analyzing donor data to insert timely thank you mailings. We talk about how tracking donations and responding quickly with a personalized thank you note can make donors feel appreciated and more likely to contribute again in the future. [25:32] The importance of emotionally engaging audiences. Whether it's through storytelling or appealing to shared values, we discuss how emotionally charged content can resonate more deeply with recipients, fostering a stronger connection and increasing the likelihood of them taking action. [36:36] Connecting with Robert Lee for direct mail consultation. For those interested in taking their direct mail campaigns to the next level, we talk about how connecting with Robert for a consultation can provide personalized advice tailored to your specific goals and needs. Resources Free Consultation to discuss marketing frameworks with Lesix Agency Eight Essential Exchanges by Kevin Scott freebie when you schedule a consultation Robert Lee Founder, Lesix Agency Robert is the founder of The Lesix Agency, a full marketing agency with the vision to put your company on the path to doubling your sales in 90 days. As a DigitalMarketer Certified Partner, he brings in over 15 years of marketing experience. His mission is to help business owners unlock their potential. Robert and his team are dedicated to empowering entrepreneurs by providing expert guidance, building a strong foundation, and providing them with a marketing strategy that will propel their success. Robert truly believes you deserve a marketing partner that invests energy in helping you grow your business. Learn more: lesix.com    https://www.linkedin.com/in/rwlee2/ https://www.facebook.com/rwlee2 Connect with us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-first-click   Learn more about The First Click: https://thefirstclick.net   Schedule a Digital Marketing Therapy Session: https://thefirstclick.net/officehours

In this conversation, Kevin Scott and Eric Blumenthal discuss the baggage that fathers carry and how it affects their role as dads. They explore three common types of baggage: the desire for affirmation, high standards and expectations, and imposter syndrome. They emphasize the importance of acknowledging and addressing these issues in order to be better fathers. They also discuss the need for open and honest communication with spouses, children, and a supportive community. The conversation encourages listeners to reflect on their own baggage and take steps to repack and leave it behind.   fatherhood, baggage, affirmation, high standards, expectations, imposter syndrome, communication, communitySee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sal Khan, founder and CEO of Khan Academy, joins Behind the Tech to discuss his journey from a curious child fascinated by science and technology to a global leader in education innovation. Sal shares his early inspirations that led him to pursue a career in engineering and a degree at MIT, and outlines his lifelong passion for education rooted in the belief that all students have the potential to excel in subjects like math and science with the right tools and encouragement.  In this episode, Kevin and Sal explore Sal's vision for Khan Academy, his insights on the intersection of technology and education, and the launch of Khanmigo, Khan Academy's AI-powered personal tutor. They discuss the challenges of teaching to diverse learning styles and the importance of building confidence and curiosity in students.  Sal Khan | Khan Academy | Khanmigo  Kevin Scott    Behind the Tech with Kevin Scott    Discover and listen to other Microsoft podcasts.    

The current LLM era is the result of scaling the size of models in successive waves (and the compute to train them). It is also the result of better-than-Moore's-Law price vs performance ratios in each new generation of Nvidia GPUs. The largest platform companies are continuing to invest in scaling as the prime driver of AI innovation. Are they right, or will marginal returns level off soon, leaving hyperscalers with too much hardware and too few customer use cases? To find out, we talk to Microsoft CTO Kevin Scott who has led their AI strategy for the past seven years. Scott describes himself as a “short-term pessimist, long-term optimist” and he sees the scaling trend as durable for the industry and critical for the establishment of Microsoft's AI platform. Scott believes there will be a shift across the compute ecosystem from training to inference as the frontier models continue to improve, serving wider and more reliable use cases. He also discusses the coming business models for training data, and even what ad units might look like for autonomous agents. Hosted by: Pat Grady and Bill Coughran, Sequoia Capital Mentioned: BERT: Pre-training of Deep Bidirectional Transformers for Language Understanding, the 2018 Google paper that convinced Kevin that Microsoft wasn't moving fast enough on AI.  Dennard scaling: The scaling law that describes the proportional relationship between transistor size and power use; has not held since 2012 and is often confused with Moore's Law. Textbooks Are All You Need: Microsoft paper that introduces a new large language model for code, phi-1, that achieves smaller size by using higher quality “textbook” data. GPQA and MMLU: Benchmarks for reasoning Copilot: Microsoft product line of GPT consumer assistants from general productivity to design, vacation planning, cooking and fitness. Devin: Autonomous AI code agent from Cognition Labs that Microsoft recently announced a partnership with. Ray Solomonoff: Participant in the 1956 Dartmouth Summer Research Project on Artificial Intelligence that named the field; Kevin admires his prescience about the importance of probabilistic methods decades before anyone else. 00:00 - Introduction 01:20 - Kevin's backstory 06:56 - The role of PhDs in AI engineering 09:56 - Microsoft's AI strategy 12:40 - Highlights and lowlights 16:28 - Accelerating investments 18:38 - The OpenAI partnership 22:46 - Soon inference will dwarf training 27:56 - Will the demand/supply balance change? 30:51 - Business models for data 36:54 - The value function 39:58 - Copilots 44:47 - The 98/2 rule 49:34 - Solving zero-sum games 57:13 - Lightning round

This and all episodes at: https://aiandyou.net/ . My guest is William A. Adams, technologist, philanthropist, and recorded by the Computer History Museum as one of the first Black entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley. He was the first technical advisor to Microsoft's CTO Kevin Scott and has founded and overseen global initiatives at Microsoft from XML technologies as early as 1998, to DE&I initiatives in 2015. The Leap program, with a focus on diverse hiring, was named Microsoft's D&I Program of the year in 2020. We talk about William's experience creating the Leap program, its impact, the relationship between AI and diversity, equity, and inclusion programs like Leap, and creating personalized chatbots. All this plus our usual look at today's AI headlines. Transcript and URLs referenced at HumanCusp Blog.          

Ethan Mollick is an associate professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, where he teaches innovation and entrepreneurship. His research focuses on the impact of AI on work and education, and he has published numerous papers and a New York Times-bestselling book on AI, "Co-Intelligence." Ethan is also behind the popular Substack ”One Useful Thing,” which explores the implications of AI for work, education, and life.  In this episode, Kevin and Ethan discuss Ethan's background as a long-time technology enthusiast, his academic journey, and his insights on the current AI revolution. Ethan shares his experiences from running a bulletin board in the '80s to co-founding a startup company before entering academia, and the two discuss topics from the transformative potential of AI and its accessibility to a broader audience to the importance of AI as a co-intelligence tool that can enhance human capabilities.  Ethan Mollick | Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania | Co-Intelligence Kevin Scott   Behind the Tech with Kevin Scott   Discover and listen to other Microsoft podcasts.    

Mike Volpi is a longtime venture capitalist who joined Index Ventures in 2009 to establish the firm's San Francisco office and North American operations. Prior, he was Chief Strategy Officer at Cisco, overseeing a run of acquisitions still studied today as a model for technology merger strategy. Mike invests primarily in artificial intelligence, infrastructure, and open-source companies, and currently serves on the boards of multiple companies including Aurora, ClickHouse, Cockroach Labs, Cohere, Confluent, Covariant.ai, Kong, Scale, Sonos, and Wealthfront.     In this episode, Kevin and Mike discuss Mike's early childhood, how he got interested in the study of engineering, and his career experiences—including what led to Mike's long career at Cisco and his current Partner position at Index—including his board experiences with multiple companies.     Mike Volpi | Index Ventures  Kevin Scott    Behind the Tech with Kevin Scott    Discover and follow other Microsoft podcasts.    

What if artificial intelligence becomes so ubiquitous that, in the future, we won't be able to imagine what life was like without it?  Kevin Scott is Executive Vice President of AI and Chief Technology Officer of Microsoft. He joins the Possible Podcast to talk about AI, its impact on education, healthcare and jobs, and how AI can benefit more of us, irrespective of our geography. Kevin, Reid, and Aria discuss Kevin's leading role in Microsoft's OpenAI partnership, along with collective decision-making for ethical AI, how technology can empower rural communities, and what's underlying Kevin's humanist perspective on artificial general intelligence. Plus, Kevin reacts to some advice from Microsoft Copilot.  Topics:  4:13 - Hellos and intros 5:48 - The origins of the partnership between Microsoft and OpenAI  14:34 - Kevin's wildest hope for Microsoft/OpenAI partnership 17:32 - Making Microsoft Copilot as accessible as possible  26:43 - How technology can revitalize communities that are being left behind 34:34 - A quick break 35:42 - A humanist approach to AI 42:00 - Copilot's suggestions for getting Copilot into more businesses' hands 43:20 - AI and its impact on work, productivity and labor markets  51:10 - Framing Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) 57:19 - Rapid-fire Questions For more info on the podcast and transcripts of all the episodes, visit https://www.possible.fm/podcast/  Select mentions: Behind the Tech Podcast with Kevin Scott Reprogramming the American Dream by Kevin Scott Children of Memory by Adrian Tchaikovsky  What if, in the future, everything breaks humanity's way? Possible is an award-winning, weekly podcast that sketches out the brightest version of the future—and what it will take to get there. Hosts Reid Hoffman and Aria Finger explore what's possible with forward-thinking leaders, deep thinkers, and ambitious builders across many fields, such as technology, art, education and healthcare. These conversations center on the ways technology—and, in particular, AI—is shaping the future. In episodes, AI tools such as OpenAI's GPT-4 and Inflection's Pi are at work, offering informational asides, prompting guests, or demoing what they can do. Lastly, between guest episodes, Aria interviews her co-host Reid on his latest takes on what's possible if we use technology—and our collective effort—effectively.

Forget rags to riches, this episode of Get Creative is about grit and glory! Join us as Kevin Scott Keegan, a leader who defied the odds, shares her inspiring climb to the top.  Hear firsthand how she overcame adversity, shattered barriers, and redefined success in her field. Whether you're facing your own Everest or just need a motivational kick, Kevin's story is packed with actionable advice and the power to propel you forward.  So, lace up your metaphorical hiking boots and get ready to conquer your own goals!   Highlights:   "Every challenge I faced was a stepping stone to build the resilience I needed for success."   "Leadership isn't about being at the top; it's about lifting others as you climb."   "The only limits that truly hinder our progress are the ones we place on ourselves."   Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction to Kevin Scott Keegan 02:15 - Early Life Challenges and Triumphs 05:30 - First Major Career Breakthrough 10:10 - Strategies for Overcoming Professional Obstacles 13:45 - Key Lessons in Leadership 18:20 - Pivotal Moments of Personal Growth 23:00 - Advancing Women's Roles in Leadership 27:35 - Kevin's Impact on Industry Standards 32:50 - Mentoring the Next Generation 36:40 - Kevin's Vision for the Future Join my Gator mentorship: joingatortribe.com Join Our Free Facebook Group: https://paceapproves.com/fbg-pod

In 2023, after departing his role as CTO of Facebook, Mike Schroepfer launched the climate venture capital investment firm Gigascale Capital with the goal of building climate tech companies. Working alongside co-founders Victoria Beasley and Evaline Tsai, Gigascale's investments are today driving advancements in clean energy, biotech and computing. In this episode, Kevin and Mike discuss Mike's early childhood and how he got interested in the study of computer science, career experiences in engineering that shaped him, and what ultimately led to his decision to focus on climate change and philanthropic endeavors through his work at Gigascale and his organization Additional Ventures, respectively.   Mike Schroepfer | Gigascale  Kevin Scott    Behind the Tech with Kevin Scott    Discover and listen to other Microsoft podcasts at news.microsoft.com/podcasts.

TL;DR: You can now buy tickets, apply to speak, or join the expo for the biggest AI Engineer event of 2024. We're gathering *everyone* you want to meet - see you this June.In last year's the Rise of the AI Engineer we put our money where our mouth was and announced the AI Engineer Summit, which fortunately went well:With ~500 live attendees and over ~500k views online, the first iteration of the AI Engineer industry affair seemed to be well received. Competing in an expensive city with 3 other more established AI conferences in the fall calendar, we broke through in terms of in-person experience and online impact.So at the end of Day 2 we announced our second event: the AI Engineer World's Fair. The new website is now live, together with our new presenting sponsor:We were delighted to invite both Ben Dunphy, co-organizer of the conference and Sam Schillace, the deputy CTO of Microsoft who wrote some of the first Laws of AI Engineering while working with early releases of GPT-4, on the pod to talk about the conference and how Microsoft is all-in on AI Engineering.Rise of the Planet of the AI EngineerSince the first AI Engineer piece, AI Engineering has exploded:and the title has been adopted across OpenAI, Meta, IBM, and many, many other companies:1 year on, it is clear that AI Engineering is not only in full swing, but is an emerging global industry that is successfully bridging the gap:* between research and product, * between general-purpose foundation models and in-context use-cases, * and between the flashy weekend MVP (still great!) and the reliable, rigorously evaluated AI product deployed at massive scale, assisting hundreds of employees and driving millions in profit.The greatly increased scope of the 2024 AI Engineer World's Fair (more stages, more talks, more speakers, more attendees, more expo…) helps us reflect the growth of AI Engineering in three major dimensions:* Global Representation: the 2023 Summit was a mostly-American affair. This year we plan to have speakers from top AI companies across five continents, and explore the vast diversity of approaches to AI across global contexts.* Topic Coverage: * In 2023, the Summit focused on the initial questions that the community wrestled with - LLM frameworks, RAG and Vector Databases, Code Copilots and AI Agents. Those are evergreen problems that just got deeper.* This year the AI Engineering field has also embraced new core disciplines with more explicit focus on Multimodality, Evals and Ops, Open Source Models and GPU/Inference Hardware providers.* Maturity/Production-readiness: Two new tracks are dedicated toward AI in the Enterprise, government, education, finance, and more highly regulated industries or AI deployed at larger scale: * AI in the Fortune 500, covering at-scale production deployments of AI, and* AI Leadership, a closed-door, side event for technical AI leaders to discuss engineering and product leadership challenges as VPs and Heads of AI in their respective orgs.We hope you will join Microsoft and the rest of us as either speaker, exhibitor, or attendee, in San Francisco this June. Contact us with any enquiries that don't fall into the categories mentioned below.Show Notes* Ben Dunphy* 2023 Summit* GitHub confirmed $100m ARR on stage* History of World's Fairs* Sam Schillace* Writely on Acquired.fm* Early Lessons From GPT-4: The Schillace Laws* Semantic Kernel* Sam on Kevin Scott (Microsoft CTO)'s podcast in 2022* AI Engineer World's Fair (SF, Jun 25-27)* Buy Super Early Bird tickets (Listeners can use LATENTSPACE for $100 off any ticket until April 8, or use GROUP if coming in 4 or more)* Submit talks and workshops for Speaker CFPs (by April 8)* Enquire about Expo Sponsorship (Asap.. selling fast)Timestamps* [00:00:16] Intro* [00:01:04] 2023 AI Engineer Summit* [00:03:11] Vendor Neutral* [00:05:33] 2024 AIE World's Fair* [00:07:34] AIE World's Fair: 9 Tracks* [00:08:58] AIE World's Fair Keynotes* [00:09:33] Introducing Sam* [00:12:17] AI in 2020s vs the Cloud in 2000s* [00:13:46] Syntax vs Semantics* [00:14:22] Bill Gates vs GPT-4* [00:16:28] Semantic Kernel and Schillace's Laws of AI Engineering* [00:17:29] Orchestration: Break it into pieces* [00:19:52] Prompt Engineering: Ask Smart to Get Smart* [00:21:57] Think with the model, Plan with Code* [00:23:12] Metacognition vs Stochasticity* [00:24:43] Generating Synthetic Textbooks* [00:26:24] Trade leverage for precision; use interaction to mitigate* [00:27:18] Code is for syntax and process; models are for semantics and intent.* [00:28:46] Hands on AI Leadership* [00:33:18] Multimodality vs "Text is the universal wire protocol"* [00:35:46] Azure OpenAI vs Microsoft Research vs Microsoft AI Division* [00:39:40] On Satya* [00:40:44] Sam at AI Leadership Track* [00:42:05] Final Plug for Tickets & CFPTranscript[00:00:00] Alessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO in residence at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co host Swyx, founder of Small[00:00:16] Intro[00:00:16] swyx: AI. Hey, hey, we're back again with a very special episode, this time with two guests and talking about the very in person events rather than online stuff.[00:00:27] swyx: So first I want to welcome Ben Dunphy, who is my co organizer on AI engineer conferences. Hey, hey, how's it going? We have a very special guest. Anyone who's looking at the show notes and the title will preview this later. But I guess we want to set the context. We are effectively doing promo for the upcoming AI Engineer World's Fair that's happening in June.[00:00:49] swyx: But maybe something that we haven't actually recapped much on the pod is just the origin of the AI Engineer Summit and why, what happens and what went down. Ben, I don't know if you'd like to start with the raw numbers that people should have in mind.[00:01:04] 2023 AI Engineer Summit[00:01:04] Ben Dunphy: Yeah, perhaps your listeners would like just a quick background on the summit.[00:01:09] Ben Dunphy: I mean, I'm sure many folks have heard of our events. You know, you launched, we launched the AI Engineer Summit last June with your, your article kind of coining the term that was on the tip of everyone's tongue, but curiously had not been actually coined, which is the term AI Engineer, which is now many people's, Job titles, you know, we're seeing a lot more people come to this event, with the job description of AI engineer, with the job title of AI engineer so, is an event that you and I really talked about since February of 2023, when we met at a hackathon you organized we were both excited by this movement and it hasn't really had a name yet.[00:01:48] Ben Dunphy: We decided that an event was warranted and that's why we move forward with the AI Engineer Summit, which Ended up being a great success. You know, we had over 5, 000 people apply to attend in person. We had over 9, 000 folks attend, online with over 20, 000 on the live stream.[00:02:06] Ben Dunphy: In person, we accepted about 400 attendees and had speakers, workshop instructors and sponsors, all congregating in San Francisco over, two days, um, two and a half days with a, with a welcome reception. So it was quite the event to kick off kind of this movement that's turning into quite an exciting[00:02:24] swyx: industry.[00:02:25] swyx: The overall idea of this is that I kind of view AI engineering, at least in all my work in Latent Space and the other stuff, as starting an industry.[00:02:34] swyx: And I think every industry, every new community, needs a place to congregate. And I definitely think that AI engineer, at least at the conference, is that it's meant to be like the biggest gathering of technical engineering people working with AI. Right. I think we kind of got that spot last year. There was a very competitive conference season, especially in San Francisco.[00:02:54] swyx: But I think as far as I understand, in terms of cultural impact, online impact, and the speakers that people want to see, we, we got them all and it was very important for us to be a vendor neutral type of event. Right. , The reason I partnered with Ben is that Ben has a lot of experience, a lot more experience doing vendor neutral stuff.[00:03:11] Vendor Neutral[00:03:11] swyx: I first met you when I was speaking at one of your events, and now we're sort of business partners on that. And yeah, I mean, I don't know if you have any sort of Thoughts on make, making things vendor neutral, making things more of a community industry conference rather than like something that's owned by one company.[00:03:25] swyx: Yeah.[00:03:25] Ben Dunphy: I mean events that are owned by a company are great, but this is typically where you have product pitches and this smaller internet community. But if you want the truly internet community, if you want a more varied audience and you know, frankly, better content for, especially for a technical audience, you want a vendor neutral event. And this is because when you have folks that are running the event that are focused on one thing and one thing alone, which is quality, quality of content, quality of speakers, quality of the in person experience, and just of general relevance it really elevates everything to the next level.[00:04:01] Ben Dunphy: And when you have someone like yourself who's coming To this content curation the role that you take at this event, and bringing that neutrality with, along with your experience, that really helps to take it to the next level, and then when you have someone like myself, focusing on just the program curation, and the in person experience, then both of our forces combined, we can like, really create this epic event, and so, these vendor neutral events if you've been to a small community event, Typically, these are vendor neutral, but also if you've been to a really, really popular industry event, many of the top industry events are actually vendor neutral.[00:04:37] Ben Dunphy: And that's because of the fact that they're vendor neutral, not in spite of[00:04:41] swyx: it. Yeah, I've been pretty open about the fact that my dream is to build the KubeCon of AI. So if anyone has been in the Kubernetes world, they'll understand what that means. And then, or, or instead of the NeurIPS, NeurIPS for engineers, where engineers are the stars and engineers are sharing their knowledge.[00:04:57] swyx: Perspectives, because I think AI is definitely moving over from research to engineering and production. I think one of my favorite parts was just honestly having GitHub and Microsoft support, which we'll cover in a bit, but you know, announcing finally that GitHub's copilot was such a commercial success I think was the first time that was actually confirmed by anyone in public.[00:05:17] swyx: For me, it's also interesting as sort of the conference curator to put Microsoft next to competitors some of which might be much smaller AI startups and to see what, where different companies are innovating in different areas.[00:05:27] swyx: Well, they're next to[00:05:27] Ben Dunphy: each other in the arena. So they can be next to each other on stage too.[00:05:33] Why AIE World's Fair[00:05:33] swyx: Okay, so this year World's Fair we are going a lot bigger what details are we disclosing right now? Yeah,[00:05:39] Ben Dunphy: I guess we should start with the name why are we calling it the World's Fair? And I think we need to go back to what inspired this, what actually the original World's Fair was, which was it started in the late 1700s and went to the early 1900s.[00:05:53] Ben Dunphy: And it was intended to showcase the incredible achievements. Of nation states, corporations, individuals in these grand expos. So you have these miniature cities actually being built for these grand expos. In San Francisco, for example, you had the entire Marina District built up in absolutely new construction to showcase the achievements of industry, architecture, art, and culture.[00:06:16] Ben Dunphy: And many of your listeners will know that in 1893, the Nikola Tesla famously provided power to the Chicago World's Fair with his 8 seat power generator. There's lots of great movies and documentaries about this. That was the first electric World's Fair, which thereafter it was referred to as the White City.[00:06:33] Ben Dunphy: So in today's world we have technological change that's similar to what was experienced during the industrial revolution in how it's, how it's just upending our entire life, how we live, work, and play. And so we have artificial intelligence, which has long been the dream of humanity.[00:06:51] Ben Dunphy: It's, it's finally here. And the pace of technological change is just accelerating. So with this event, as you mentioned, we, we're aiming to create a singular event where the world's foremost experts, builders, and practitioners can come together to exchange and reflect. And we think this is not only good for business, but it's also good for our mental health.[00:07:12] Ben Dunphy: It slows things down a bit from the Twitter news cycle to an in person festival of smiles, handshakes, connections, and in depth conversations that online media and online events can only ever dream of replicating. So this is an expo led event where the world's top companies will mingle with the world's top founders and AI engineers who are building and enhanced by AI.[00:07:34] AIE World's Fair: 9 Tracks[00:07:34] Ben Dunphy: And not to mention, we're featuring over a hundred talks and workshops across[00:07:37] swyx: nine tracks. Yeah, I mean, those nine tracks will be fun. Actually, do we have a little preview of the tracks in the, the speakers?[00:07:43] Ben Dunphy: We do. Folks can actually see them today at our website. We've updated that at ai.[00:07:48] Ben Dunphy: engineer. So we'd encourage them to go there to see that. But for those just listening, we have nine tracks. So we have multimodality. We have retrieval augmented generation. Featuring LLM frameworks and vector databases, evals and LLM ops, open source models, code gen and dev tools, GPUs and inference, AI agent applications, AI in the fortune 500, and then we have a special track for AI leadership which you can access by purchasing the VP pass which is different from the, the other passes we have.[00:08:20] Ben Dunphy: And I won't go into the Each of these tracks in depth, unless you want to, Swyx but there's more details on the website at ai. engineer.[00:08:28] swyx: I mean, I, I, very much looking forward to talking to our special guests for the last track, I think, which is the what a lot of yeah, leaders are thinking about, which is how to, Inspire innovation in their companies, especially the sort of larger organizations that might not have the in house talents for that kind of stuff.[00:08:47] swyx: So yeah, we can talk about the expo, but I'm very keen to talk about the presenting sponsor if you want to go slightly out of order from our original plan.[00:08:58] AIE World's Fair Keynotes[00:08:58] Ben Dunphy: Yeah, absolutely. So you know, for the stage of keynotes, we have talks confirmed from Microsoft, OpenAI, AWS, and Google.[00:09:06] Ben Dunphy: And our presenting sponsor is joining the stage with those folks. And so that presenting sponsor this year is a dream sponsor. It's Microsoft. It's the company really helping to lead the charge. And into this wonderful new era that we're all taking part in. So, yeah,[00:09:20] swyx: you know, a bit of context, like when we first started planning this thing, I was kind of brainstorming, like, who would we like to get as the ideal presenting sponsors, as ideal partners long term, just in terms of encouraging the AI engineering industry, and it was Microsoft.[00:09:33] Introducing Sam[00:09:33] swyx: So Sam, I'm very excited to welcome you onto the podcast. You are CVP and Deputy CTO of Microsoft. Welcome.[00:09:40] Sam Schillace: Nice to be here. I'm looking forward to, I was looking for, to Lessio saying my last name correctly this time. Oh[00:09:45] swyx: yeah. So I, I studiously avoided saying, saying your last name, but apparently it's an Italian last name.[00:09:50] swyx: Ski Lache. Ski[00:09:51] Alessio: Lache. Yeah. No, that, that's great, Sean. That's great as a musical person.[00:09:54] swyx: And it, it's also, yeah, I pay attention to like the, the, the lilt. So it's ski lache and the, the slow slowing of the law is, is what I focused[00:10:03] Sam Schillace: on. You say both Ls. There's no silent letters, you say[00:10:07] Alessio: both of those. And it's great to have you, Sam.[00:10:09] Alessio: You know, we've known each other now for a year and a half, two years, and our first conversation, well, it was at Lobby Conference, and then we had a really good one in the kind of parking lot of a Safeway, because we didn't want to go into Starbucks to meet, so we sat outside for about an hour, an hour and a half, and then you had to go to a Bluegrass concert, so it was great.[00:10:28] Alessio: Great meeting, and now, finally, we have you on Lanespace.[00:10:31] Sam Schillace: Cool, cool. Yeah, I'm happy to be here. It's funny, I was just saying to Swyx before you joined that, like, it's kind of an intimidating podcast. Like, when I listen to this podcast, it seems to be, like, one of the more intelligent ones, like, more, more, like, deep technical folks on it.[00:10:44] Sam Schillace: So, it's, like, it's kind of nice to be here. It's fun. Bring your A game. Hopefully I'll, I'll bring mine. I[00:10:49] swyx: mean, you've been programming for longer than some of our listeners have been alive, so I don't think your technical chops are in any doubt. So you were responsible for Rightly as one of your early wins in your career, which then became Google Docs, and obviously you were then responsible for a lot more G Suite.[00:11:07] swyx: But did you know that you covered in Acquired. fm episode 9, which is one of the podcasts that we model after.[00:11:13] Sam Schillace: Oh, cool. I didn't, I didn't realize that the most fun way to say this is that I still have to this day in my personal GDocs account, the very first Google doc, like I actually have it.[00:11:24] Sam Schillace: And I looked it up, like it occurred to me like six months ago that it was probably around and I went and looked and it's still there. So it's like, and it's kind of a funny thing. Cause it's like the backend has been rewritten at least twice that I know of the front end has been re rewritten at least twice that I know of.[00:11:38] Sam Schillace: So. I'm not sure what sense it's still the original one it's sort of more the idea of the original one, like the NFT of it would probably be more authentic. I[00:11:46] swyx: still have it. It's a ship athesia thing. Does it, does it say hello world or something more mundane?[00:11:52] Sam Schillace: It's, it's, it's me and Steve Newman trying to figure out if some collaboration stuff is working, and also a picture of Edna from the Incredibles that I probably pasted in later, because that's That's too early for that, I think.[00:12:05] swyx: People can look up your LinkedIn, and we're going to link it on the show notes, but you're also SVP of engineering for Box, and then you went back to Google to do Google, to lead Google Maps, and now you're deputy CTO.[00:12:17] AI in 2020s vs the Cloud in 2000s[00:12:17] swyx: I mean, there's so many places to start, but maybe one place I like to start off with is do you have a personal GPT 4 experience.[00:12:25] swyx: Obviously being at Microsoft, you have, you had early access and everyone talks about Bill Gates's[00:12:30] Sam Schillace: demo. Yeah, it's kind of, yeah, that's, it's kind of interesting. Like, yeah, we got access, I got access to it like in September of 2022, I guess, like before it was really released. And I it like almost instantly was just like mind blowing to me how good it was.[00:12:47] Sam Schillace: I would try experiments like very early on, like I play music. There's this thing called ABC notation. That's like an ASCII way to represent music. And like, I was like, I wonder if it can like compose a fiddle tune. And like it composed a fiddle tune. I'm like, I wonder if it can change key, change the key.[00:13:01] Sam Schillace: Like it's like really, it was like very astonishing. And I sort of, I'm very like abstract. My background is actually more math than CS. I'm a very abstract thinker and sort of categorical thinker. And the, the thing that occurred to me with, with GPT 4 the first time I saw it was. This is really like the beginning, it's the beginning of V2 of the computer industry completely.[00:13:23] Sam Schillace: I had the same feeling I had when, of like a category shifting that I had when the cloud stuff happened with the GDocs stuff, right? Where it's just like, all of a sudden this like huge vista opens up of capabilities. And I think the way I characterized it, which is a little bit nerdy, but I'm a nerd so lean into it is like everything until now has been about syntax.[00:13:46] Syntax vs Semantics[00:13:46] Sam Schillace: Like, we have to do mediation. We have to describe the real world in forms that the digital world can manage. And so we're the mediation, and we, like, do that via things like syntax and schema and programming languages. And all of a sudden, like, this opens the door to semantics, where, like, you can express intention and meaning and nuance and fuzziness.[00:14:04] Sam Schillace: And the machine itself is doing, the model itself is doing a bunch of the mediation for you. And like, that's obviously like complicated. We can talk about the limits and stuff, and it's getting better in some ways. And we're learning things and all kinds of stuff is going on around it, obviously.[00:14:18] Sam Schillace: But like, that was my immediate reaction to it was just like, Oh my God.[00:14:22] Bill Gates vs GPT-4[00:14:22] Sam Schillace: Like, and then I heard about the build demo where like Bill had been telling Kevin Scott this, This investment is a waste. It's never going to work. AI is blah, blah, blah. And come back when it can pass like an AP bio exam.[00:14:33] Sam Schillace: And they actually literally did that at one point, they brought in like the world champion of the, like the AP bio test or whatever the AP competition and like it and chat GPT or GPT 4 both did the AP bio and GPT 4 beat her. So that was the moment that convinced Bill that this was actually real.[00:14:53] Sam Schillace: Yeah, it's fun. I had a moment with him actually about three weeks after that when we had been, so I started like diving in on developer tools almost immediately and I built this thing with a small team that's called the Semantic Kernel which is one of the very early orchestrators just because I wanted to be able to put code and And inference together.[00:15:10] Sam Schillace: And that's probably something we should dig into more deeply. Cause I think there's some good insights in there, but I I had a bunch of stuff that we were building and then I was asked to go meet with Bill Gates about it and he's kind of famously skeptical and, and so I was a little bit nervous to meet him the first time.[00:15:25] Sam Schillace: And I started the conversation with, Hey, Bill, like three weeks ago, you would have called BS on everything I'm about to show you. And I would probably have agreed with you, but we've both seen this thing. And so we both know it's real. So let's skip that part and like, talk about what's possible.[00:15:39] Sam Schillace: And then we just had this kind of fun, open ended conversation and I showed him a bunch of stuff. So that was like a really nice, fun, fun moment as well. Well,[00:15:46] swyx: that's a nice way to meet Bill Gates and impress[00:15:48] Sam Schillace: him. A little funny. I mean, it's like, I wasn't sure what he would think of me, given what I've done and his.[00:15:54] Sam Schillace: Crown Jewel. But he was nice. I think he likes[00:15:59] swyx: GDocs. Crown Jewel as in Google Docs versus Microsoft Word? Office.[00:16:03] Sam Schillace: Yeah. Yeah, versus Office. Yeah, like, I think, I mean, I can imagine him not liking, I met Steven Snofsky once and he sort of respectfully, but sort of grimaced at me. You know, like, because of how much trauma I had caused him.[00:16:18] Sam Schillace: So Bill was very nice to[00:16:20] swyx: me. In general it's like friendly competition, right? They keep you, they keep you sharp, you keep each[00:16:24] Sam Schillace: other sharp. Yeah, no, I think that's, it's definitely respect, it's just kind of funny.[00:16:28] Semantic Kernel and Schillace's Laws of AI Engineering[00:16:28] Sam Schillace: Yeah,[00:16:28] swyx: So, speaking of semantic kernel, I had no idea that you were that deeply involved, that you actually had laws named after you.[00:16:35] swyx: This only came up after looking into you for a little bit. Skelatches laws, how did those, what's the, what's the origin[00:16:41] Sam Schillace: story? Hey! Yeah, that's kind of funny. I'm actually kind of a modest person and so I'm sure I feel about having my name attached to them. Although I do agree with all, I believe all of them because I wrote all of them.[00:16:49] Sam Schillace: This is like a designer, John Might, who works with me, decided to stick my name on them and put them out there. Seriously, but like, well, but like, so this was just I, I'm not, I don't build models. Like I'm not an AI engineer in the sense of, of like AI researcher that's like doing inference. Like I'm somebody who's like consuming the models.[00:17:09] Sam Schillace: Exactly. So it's kind of funny when you're talking about AI engineering, like it's a good way of putting it. Cause that's how like I think about myself. I'm like, I'm an app builder. I just want to build with this tool. Yep. And so we spent all of the fall and into the winter in that first year, like Just trying to build stuff and learn how this tool worked.[00:17:29] Orchestration: Break it into pieces[00:17:29] Sam Schillace: And I guess those are a little bit in the spirit of like Robert Bentley's programming pearls or something. I was just like, let's kind of distill some of these ideas down of like. How does this thing work? I saw something I still see today with people doing like inference is still kind of expensive.[00:17:46] Sam Schillace: GPUs are still kind of scarce. And so people try to get everything done in like one shot. And so there's all this like prompt tuning to get things working. And one of the first laws was like, break it into pieces. Like if it's hard for you, it's going to be hard for the model. But if it's you know, there's this kind of weird thing where like, it's.[00:18:02] Sam Schillace: It's absolutely not a human being, but starting to think about, like, how would I solve the problem is often a good way to figure out how to architect the program so that the model can solve the problem. So, like, that was one of the first laws. That came from me just trying to, like, replicate a test of a, like, a more complicated, There's like a reasoning process that you have to go through that, that Google was, was the react, the react thing, and I was trying to get GPT 4 to do it on its own.[00:18:32] Sam Schillace: And, and so I'd ask it the question that was in this paper, and the answer to the question is like the year 2000. It's like, what year did this particular author who wrote this book live in this country? And you've kind of got to carefully reason through it. And like, I could not get GPT 4 to Just to answer the question with the year 2000.[00:18:50] Sam Schillace: And if you're thinking about this as like the kernel is like a pipelined orchestrator, right? It's like very Unix y, where like you have a, some kind of command and you pipe stuff to the next parameters and output to the next thing. So I'm thinking about this as like one module in like a pipeline, and I just want it to give me the answer.[00:19:05] Sam Schillace: I don't want anything else. And I could not prompt engineer my way out of that. I just like, it was giving me a paragraph or reasoning. And so I sort of like anthropomorphized a little bit and I was like, well, the only way you can think about stuff is it can think out loud because there's nothing else that the model does.[00:19:19] Sam Schillace: It's just doing token generation. And so it's not going to be able to do this reasoning if it can't think out loud. And that's why it's always producing this. But if you take that paragraph of output, which did get to the right answer and you pipe it into a second prompt. That just says read this conversation and just extract the answer and report it back.[00:19:38] Sam Schillace: That's an easier task. That would be an easier task for you to do or me to do. It's easier reasoning. And so it's an easier thing for the model to do and it's much more accurate. And that's like 100 percent accurate. It always does that. So like that was one of those, those insights on the that led to the, the choice loss.[00:19:52] Prompt Engineering: Ask Smart to Get Smart[00:19:52] Sam Schillace: I think one of the other ones that's kind of interesting that I think people still don't fully appreciate is that GPT 4 is the rough equivalent of like a human being sitting down for centuries or millennia and reading all the books that they can find. It's this vast mind, right, and the embedding space, the latent space, is 100, 000 K, 100, 000 dimensional space, right?[00:20:14] Sam Schillace: Like it's this huge, high dimensional space, and we don't have good, um, Intuition about high dimensional spaces, like the topology works in really weird ways, connectivity works in weird ways. So a lot of what we're doing is like aiming the attention of a model into some part of this very weirdly connected space.[00:20:30] Sam Schillace: That's kind of what prompt engineering is. But that kind of, like, what we observed to begin with that led to one of those laws was You know, ask smart to get smart. And I think we've all, we all understand this now, right? Like this is the whole field of prompt engineering. But like, if you ask like a simple, a simplistic question of the model, you'll get kind of a simplistic answer.[00:20:50] Sam Schillace: Cause you're pointing it at a simplistic part of that high dimensional space. And if you ask it a more intelligent question, you get more intelligent stuff back out. And so I think that's part of like how you think about programming as well. It's like, how are you directing the attention of the model?[00:21:04] Sam Schillace: And I think we still don't have a good intuitive feel for that. To me,[00:21:08] Alessio: the most interesting thing is how do you tie the ask smart, get smart with the syntax and semantics piece. I gave a talk at GDC last week about the rise of full stack employees and how these models are like semantic representation of tasks that people do.[00:21:23] Alessio: But at the same time, we have code. Also become semantic representation of code. You know, I give you the example of like Python that sort it's like really a semantic function. It's not code, but it's actually code underneath. How do you think about tying the two together where you have code?[00:21:39] Alessio: To then extract the smart parts so that you don't have to like ask smart every time and like kind of wrap them in like higher level functions.[00:21:46] Sam Schillace: Yeah, this is, this is actually, we're skipping ahead to kind of later in the conversation, but I like to, I usually like to still stuff down in these little aphorisms that kind of help me remember them.[00:21:57] Think with the model, Plan with Code[00:21:57] Sam Schillace: You know, so we can dig into a bunch of them. One of them is pixels are free, one of them is bots are docs. But the one that's interesting here is Think with the model, plan with code. And so one of the things, so one of the things we've realized, we've been trying to do lots of these like longer running tasks.[00:22:13] Sam Schillace: Like we did this thing called the infinite chatbot, which was the successor to the semantic kernel, which is an internal project. It's a lot like GPTs. The open AI GPT is, but it's like a little bit more advanced in some ways, kind of deep exploration of a rag based bot system. And then we did multi agents from that, trying to do some autonomy stuff and we're, and we're kind of banging our head against this thing.[00:22:34] Sam Schillace: And you know, one of the things I started to realize, this is going to get nerdy for a second. I apologize, but let me dig in on it for just a second. No apology needed. Um, we realized is like, again, this is a little bit of an anthropomorphism and an illusion that we're having. So like when we look at these models, we think there's something continuous there.[00:22:51] Sam Schillace: We're having a conversation with chat GPT or whatever with Azure open air or like, like what's really happened. It's a little bit like watching claymation, right? Like when you watch claymation, you don't think that the model is actually the clay model is actually really alive. You know, that there's like a bunch of still disconnected slot screens that your mind is connecting into a continuous experience.[00:23:12] Metacognition vs Stochasticity[00:23:12] Sam Schillace: And that's kind of the same thing that's going on with these models. Like they're all the prompts are disconnected no matter what. Which means you're putting a lot of weight on memory, right? This is the thing we talked about. You're like, you're putting a lot of weight on precision and recall of your memory system.[00:23:27] Sam Schillace: And so like, and it turns out like, because the models are stochastic, they're kind of random. They'll make stuff up if things are missing. If you're naive about your, your memory system, you'll get lots of like accumulated similar memories that will kind of clog the system, things like that. So there's lots of ways in which like, Memory is hard to manage well, and, and, and that's okay.[00:23:47] Sam Schillace: But what happens is when you're doing plans and you're doing these longer running things that you're talking about, that second level, the metacognition is very vulnerable to that stochastic noise, which is like, I totally want to put this on a bumper sticker that like metacognition is susceptible to stochasticity would be like the great bumper sticker.[00:24:07] Sam Schillace: So what, these things are very vulnerable to feedback loops when they're trying to do autonomy, and they're very vulnerable to getting lost. So we've had these, like, multi agent Autonomous agent things get kind of stuck on like complimenting each other, or they'll get stuck on being quote unquote frustrated and they'll go on strike.[00:24:22] Sam Schillace: Like there's all kinds of weird like feedback loops you get into. So what we've learned to answer your question of how you put all this stuff together is You have to, the model's good at thinking, but it's not good at planning. So you do planning in code. So you have to describe the larger process of what you're doing in code somehow.[00:24:38] Sam Schillace: So semantic intent or whatever. And then you let the model kind of fill in the pieces.[00:24:43] Generating Synthetic Textbooks[00:24:43] Sam Schillace: I'll give a less abstract like example. It's a little bit of an old example. I did this like last year, but at one point I wanted to see if I could generate textbooks. And so I wrote this thing called the textbook factory.[00:24:53] Sam Schillace: And it's, it's tiny. It's like a Jupyter notebook with like. You know, 200 lines of Python and like six very short prompts, but what you basically give it a sentence. And it like pulls out the topic and the level of, of, from that sentence, so you, like, I would like fifth grade reading. I would like eighth grade English.[00:25:11] Sam Schillace: His English ninth grade, US history, whatever. That by the way, all, all by itself, like would've been an almost impossible job like three years ago. Isn't, it's like totally amazing like that by itself. Just parsing an arbitrary natural language sentence to get these two pieces of information out is like almost trivial now.[00:25:27] Sam Schillace: Which is amazing. So it takes that and it just like makes like a thousand calls to the API and it goes and builds a full year textbook, like decides what the curriculum is with one of the prompts. It breaks it into chapters. It writes all the lessons and lesson plans and like builds a teacher's guide with all the answers to all the questions.[00:25:42] Sam Schillace: It builds a table of contents, like all that stuff. It's super reliable. You always get a textbook. It's super brittle. You never get a cookbook or a novel like but like you could kind of define that domain pretty care, like I can describe. The metacognition, the high level plan for how do you write a textbook, right?[00:25:59] Sam Schillace: You like decide the curriculum and then you write all the chapters and you write the teacher's guide and you write the table content, like you can, you can describe that out pretty well. And so having that like code exoskeleton wrapped around the model is really helpful, like it keeps the model from drifting off and then you don't have as many of these vulnerabilities around memory that you would normally have.[00:26:19] Sam Schillace: So like, that's kind of, I think where the syntax and semantics comes together right now.[00:26:24] Trade leverage for precision; use interaction to mitigate[00:26:24] Sam Schillace: And then I think the question for all of us is. How do you get more leverage out of that? Right? So one of the things that I don't love about virtually everything anyone's built for the last year and a half is people are holding the hands of the model on everything.[00:26:37] Sam Schillace: Like the leverage is very low, right? You can't turn. These things loose to do anything really interesting for very long. You can kind of, and the places where people are getting more work out per unit of work in are usually where somebody has done exactly what I just described. They've kind of figured out what the pattern of the problem is in enough of a way that they can write some code for it.[00:26:59] Sam Schillace: And then that that like, so I've seen like sales support stuff. I've seen like code base tuning stuff of like, there's lots of things that people are doing where like, you can get a lot of value in some relatively well defined domain using a little bit of the model's ability to think for you and a little, and a little bit of code.[00:27:18] Code is for syntax and process; models are for semantics and intent.[00:27:18] Sam Schillace: And then I think the next wave is like, okay, do we do stuff like domain specific languages to like make the planning capabilities better? Do we like start to build? More sophisticated primitives. We're starting to think about and talk about like power automate and a bunch of stuff inside of Microsoft that we're going to wrap in these like building blocks.[00:27:34] Sam Schillace: So the models have these chunks of reliable functionality that they can invoke as part of these plans, right? Because you don't want like, if you're going to ask the model to go do something and the output's going to be a hundred thousand lines of code, if it's got to generate that code every time, the randomness, the stochasticity is like going to make that basically not reliable.[00:27:54] Sam Schillace: You want it to generate it like a 10 or 20 line high level semantic plan for this thing that gets handed to some markup executor that runs it and that invokes that API, that 100, 000 lines of code behind it, API call. And like, that's a really nice robust system for now. And then as the models get smarter as new models emerge, then we get better plans, we get more sophistication.[00:28:17] Sam Schillace: In terms of what they can choose, things like that. Right. So I think like that feels like that's probably the path forward for a little while, at least, like there was, there was a lot there. I, sorry, like I've been thinking, you can tell I've been thinking about it a lot. Like this is kind of all I think about is like, how do you build.[00:28:31] Sam Schillace: Really high value stuff out of this. And where do we go? Yeah. The, the role where[00:28:35] swyx: we are. Yeah. The intermixing of code and, and LMS is, is a lot of the role of the AI engineer. And I, I, I think in a very real way, you were one of the first to, because obviously you had early access. Honestly, I'm surprised.[00:28:46] Hands on AI Leadership[00:28:46] swyx: How are you so hands on? How do you choose to, to dedicate your time? How do you advise other tech leaders? Right. You know, you, you are. You have people working for you, you could not be hands on, but you seem to be hands on. What's the allocation that people should have, especially if they're senior tech[00:29:03] Sam Schillace: leaders?[00:29:04] Sam Schillace: It's mostly just fun. Like, I'm a maker, and I like to build stuff. I'm a little bit idiosyncratic. I I've got ADHD, and so I won't build anything. I won't work on anything I'm bored with. So I have no discipline. If I'm not actually interested in the thing, I can't just, like, do it, force myself to do it.[00:29:17] Sam Schillace: But, I mean, if you're not interested in what's going on right now in the industry, like, go find a different industry, honestly. Like, I seriously, like, this is, I, well, it's funny, like, I don't mean to be snarky, but, like, I was at a dinner, like, a, I don't know, six months ago or something, And I was sitting next to a CTO of a large, I won't name the corporation because it would name the person, but I was sitting next to the CTO of a very large Japanese technical company, and he was like, like, nothing has been interesting since the internet, and this is interesting now, like, this is fun again.[00:29:46] Sam Schillace: And I'm like, yeah, totally, like this is like, the most interesting thing that's happened in 35 years of my career, like, we can play with semantics and natural language, and we can have these things that are like sort of active, can kind of be independent in certain ways and can do stuff for us and can like, reach all of these interesting problems.[00:30:02] Sam Schillace: So like that's part of it of it's just kind of fun to, to do stuff and to build stuff. I, I just can't, can't resist. I'm not crazy hands-on, like, I have an eng like my engineering team's listening right now. They're like probably laughing 'cause they, I never, I, I don't really touch code directly 'cause I'm so obsessive.[00:30:17] Sam Schillace: I told them like, if I start writing code, that's all I'm gonna do. And it's probably better if I stay a little bit high level and like, think about. I've got a really great couple of engineers, a bunch of engineers underneath me, a bunch of designers underneath me that are really good folks that we just bounce ideas off of back and forth and it's just really fun.[00:30:35] Sam Schillace: That's the role I came to Microsoft to do, really, was to just kind of bring some energy around innovation, some energy around consumer, We didn't know that this was coming when I joined. I joined like eight months before it hit us, but I think Kevin might've had an idea it was coming. And and then when it hit, I just kind of dove in with both feet cause it's just so much fun to do.[00:30:55] Sam Schillace: Just to tie it back a little bit to the, the Google Docs stuff. When we did rightly originally the world it's not like I built rightly in jQuery or anything. Like I built that thing on bare metal back before there were decent JavaScript VMs.[00:31:10] Sam Schillace: I was just telling somebody today, like you were rate limited. So like just computing the diff when you type something like doing the string diff, I had to write like a binary search on each end of the string diff because like you didn't have enough iterations of a for loop to search character by character.[00:31:24] Sam Schillace: I mean, like that's how rough it was none of the browsers implemented stuff directly, whatever. It's like, just really messy. And like, that's. Like, as somebody who's been doing this for a long time, like, that's the place where you want to engage, right? If things are easy, and it's easy to go do something, it's too late.[00:31:42] Sam Schillace: Even if it's not too late, it's going to be crowded, but like the right time to do something new and disruptive and technical is, first of all, still when it's controversial, but second of all, when you have this, like, you can see the future, you ask this, like, what if question, and you can see where it's going, But you have this, like, pit in your stomach as an engineer as to, like, how crappy this is going to be to do.[00:32:04] Sam Schillace: Like, that's really the right moment to engage with stuff. We're just like, this is going to suck, it's going to be messy, I don't know what the path is, I'm going to get sticks and thorns in my hair, like I, I, it's going to have false starts, and I don't really, I'm going to This is why those skeletchae laws are kind of funny, because, like, I, I, like You know, I wrote them down at one point because they were like my best guess, but I'm like half of these are probably wrong, and I think they've all held up pretty well, but I'm just like guessing along with everybody else, we're just trying to figure this thing out still, right, and like, and I think the only way to do that is to just engage with it.[00:32:34] Sam Schillace: You just have to like, build stuff. If you're, I can't tell you the number of execs I've talked to who have opinions about AI and have not sat down with anything for more than 10 minutes to like actually try to get anything done. You know, it's just like, it's incomprehensible to me that you can watch this stuff through the lens of like the press and forgive me, podcasts and feel like you actually know what you're talking about.[00:32:59] Sam Schillace: Like, you have to like build stuff. Like, break your nose on stuff and like figure out what doesn't work.[00:33:04] swyx: Yeah, I mean, I view us as a starting point, as a way for people to get exposure on what we're doing. They should be looking at, and they still have to do the work as do we. Yeah, I'll basically endorse, like, I think most of the laws.[00:33:18] Multimodality vs "Text is the universal wire protocol"[00:33:18] swyx: I think the one I question the most now is text is the universal wire protocol. There was a very popular article, a text that used a universal interface by Rune who now works at OpenAI. And I, actually, we just, we just dropped a podcast with David Luan, who's CEO of Adept now, but he was VP of Eng, and he pitched Kevin Scott for the original Microsoft investment in OpenAI.[00:33:40] swyx: Where he's basically pivoting to or just betting very hard on multimodality. I think that's something that we don't really position very well. I think this year, we're trying to all figure it out. I don't know if you have an updated perspective on multi modal models how that affects agents[00:33:54] Sam Schillace: or not.[00:33:55] Sam Schillace: Yeah, I mean, I think the multi I think multi modality is really important. And I, I think it's only going to get better from here. For sure. Yeah, the text is the universal wire protocol. You're probably right. Like, I don't know that I would defend that one entirely. Note that it doesn't say English, right?[00:34:09] Sam Schillace: Like it's, it's not, that's even natural language. Like there's stuff like Steve Luko, who's the guy who created TypeScript, created TypeChat, right? Which is this like way to get LLMs to be very precise and return syntax and correct JavaScript. So like, I, yeah, I think like multimodality, like, I think part of the challenge with it is like, it's a little harder to access.[00:34:30] Sam Schillace: Programatically still like I think you know and I do think like, You know like when when like dahly and stuff started to come Out I was like, oh photoshop's in trouble cuz like, you know I'm just gonna like describe images And you don't need photos of Photoshop anymore Which hasn't played out that way like they're actually like adding a bunch of tools who look like you want to be able to you know for multimodality be really like super super charged you need to be able to do stuff like Descriptively, like, okay, find the dog in this picture and mask around it.[00:34:58] Sam Schillace: Okay, now make it larger and whatever. You need to be able to interact with stuff textually, which we're starting to be able to do. Like, you can do some of that stuff. But there's probably a whole bunch of new capabilities that are going to come out that are going to make it more interesting.[00:35:11] Sam Schillace: So, I don't know, like, I suspect we're going to wind up looking kind of like Unix at the end of the day, where, like, there's pipes and, like, Stuff goes over pipes, and some of the pipes are byte character pipes, and some of them are byte digital or whatever like binary pipes, and that's going to be compatible with a lot of the systems we have out there, so like, that's probably still And I think there's a lot to be gotten from, from text as a language, but I suspect you're right.[00:35:37] Sam Schillace: Like that particular law is not going to hold up super well. But we didn't have multimodal going when I wrote it. I'll take one out as well.[00:35:46] Azure OpenAI vs Microsoft Research vs Microsoft AI Division[00:35:46] swyx: I know. Yeah, I mean, the innovations that keep coming out of Microsoft. You mentioned multi agent. I think you're talking about autogen.[00:35:52] swyx: But there's always research coming out of MSR. Yeah. PHY1, PHY2. Yeah, there's a bunch of[00:35:57] Sam Schillace: stuff. Yeah.[00:35:59] swyx: What should, how should the outsider or the AI engineer just as a sort of final word, like, How should they view the Microsoft portfolio things? I know you're not here to be a salesman, but What, how do you explain You know, Microsoft's AI[00:36:12] Sam Schillace: work to people.[00:36:13] Sam Schillace: There's a lot of stuff going on. Like, first of all, like, I should, I'll be a little tiny bit of a salesman for, like, two seconds and just point out that, like, one of the things we have is the Microsoft for Startups Founders Hub. So, like, you can get, like, Azure credits and stuff from us. Like, up to, like, 150 grand, I think, over four years.[00:36:29] Sam Schillace: So, like, it's actually pretty easy to get. Credit you can start, I 500 bucks to start or something with very little other than just an idea. So like there's, that's pretty cool. Like, I like Microsoft is very much all in on AI at, at many levels. And so like that, you mentioned, you mentioned Autogen, like, So I sit in the office of the CTO, Microsoft Research sits under him, under the office of the CTO as well.[00:36:51] Sam Schillace: So the Autogen group came out of somebody in MSR, like in that group. So like there's sort of. The spectrum of very researchy things going on in research, where we're doing things like Phi, which is the small language model efficiency exploration that's really, really interesting. Lots of very technical folks there that are building different kinds of models.[00:37:10] Sam Schillace: And then there's like, groups like my group that are kind of a little bit in the middle that straddle product and, and, and research and kind of have a foot in both worlds and are trying to kind of be a bridge into the product world. And then there's like a whole bunch of stuff on the product side of things.[00:37:23] Sam Schillace: So there's. All the Azure OpenAI stuff, and then there's all the stuff that's in Office and Windows. And I, so I think, like, the way, I don't know, the way to think about Microsoft is we're just powering AI at every level we can, and making it as accessible as we can to both end users and developers.[00:37:42] Sam Schillace: There's this really nice research arm at one end of that spectrum that's really driving the cutting edge. The fee stuff is really amazing. It broke the chinchella curves. Right, like we didn't, that's the textbooks are all you need paper, and it's still kind of controversial, but like that was really a surprising result that came out of MSR.[00:37:58] Sam Schillace: And so like I think Microsoft is both being a thought leader on one end, on the other end with all the Azure OpenAI, all the Azure tooling that we have, like very much a developer centric, kind of the tinkerer's paradise that Microsoft always was. It's like a great place to come and consume all these things.[00:38:14] Sam Schillace: There's really amazing stuff ideas that we've had, like these very rich, long running, rag based chatbots that we didn't talk about that are like now possible to just go build with Azure AI Studio for yourself. You can build and deploy like a chatbot that's trained on your data specifically, like very easily and things like that.[00:38:31] Sam Schillace: So like there's that end of things. And then there's all this stuff that's in Office, where like, you could just like use the copilots both in Bing, but also just like daily your daily work. So like, it's just kind of everywhere at this point, like everyone in the company thinks about it all the time.[00:38:43] Sam Schillace: There's like no single answer to that question. That was way more salesy than I thought I was capable of, but like, that is actually the genuine truth. Like, it is all the time, it is all levels, it is all the way from really pragmatic, approachable stuff for somebody starting out who doesn't know things, all the way to like Absolutely cutting edge research, silicon, models, AI for science, like, we didn't talk about any of the AI for science stuff, I've seen magical stuff coming out of the research group on that topic, like just crazy cool stuff that's coming, so.[00:39:13] Sam Schillace: You've[00:39:14] swyx: called this since you joined Microsoft. I point listeners to the podcast that you did in 2022, pre ChatGBT with Kevin Scott. And yeah, you've been saying this from the beginning. So this is not a new line of Talk track for you, like you've, you, you've been a genuine believer for a long time.[00:39:28] swyx: And,[00:39:28] Sam Schillace: and just to be clear, like I haven't been at Microsoft that long. I've only been here for like two, a little over two years and you know, it's a little bit weird for me 'cause for a lot of my career they were the competitor and the enemy and you know, it's kind of funny to be here, but like it's really remarkable.[00:39:40] On Satya[00:39:40] Sam Schillace: It's going on. I really, really like Satya. I've met a, met and worked with a bunch of big tech CEOs and I think he's a genuinely awesome person and he's fun to work with and has a really great. vision. So like, and I obviously really like Kevin, we've been friends for a long time. So it's a cool place.[00:39:56] Sam Schillace: I think there's a lot of interesting stuff. We[00:39:57] swyx: have some awareness Satya is a listener. So obviously he's super welcome on the pod anytime. You can just drop in a good word for us.[00:40:05] Sam Schillace: He's fun to talk to. It's interesting because like CEOs can be lots of different personalities, but he is you were asking me about how I'm like, so hands on and engaged.[00:40:14] Sam Schillace: I'm amazed at how hands on and engaged he can be given the scale of his job. Like, he's super, super engaged with stuff, super in the details, understands a lot of the stuff that's going on. And the science side of things, as well as the product and the business side, I mean, it's really remarkable. I don't say that, like, because he's listening or because I'm trying to pump the company, like, I'm, like, genuinely really, really impressed with, like, how, what he's, like, I look at him, I'm like, I love this stuff, and I spend all my time thinking about it, and I could not do what he's doing.[00:40:42] Sam Schillace: Like, it's just incredible how much you can get[00:40:43] Ben Dunphy: into his head.[00:40:44] Sam at AI Leadership Track[00:40:44] Ben Dunphy: Sam, it's been an absolute pleasure to hear from you here, hear the war stories. So thank you so much for coming on. Quick question though you're here on the podcast as the presenting sponsor for the AI Engineer World's Fair, will you be taking the stage there, or are we going to defer that to Satya?[00:41:01] Ben Dunphy: And I'm happy[00:41:02] Sam Schillace: to talk to folks. I'm happy to be there. It's always fun to like I, I like talking to people more than talking at people. So I don't love giving keynotes. I love giving Q and A's and like engaging with engineers and like. I really am at heart just a builder and an engineer, and like, that's what I'm happiest doing, like being creative and like building things and figuring stuff out.[00:41:22] Sam Schillace: That would be really fun to do, and I'll probably go just to like, hang out with people and hear what they're working on and working about.[00:41:28] swyx: The AI leadership track is just AI leaders, and then it's closed doors, so you know, more sort of an unconference style where people just talk[00:41:34] Sam Schillace: about their issues.[00:41:35] Sam Schillace: Yeah, that would be, that's much more fun. That's really, because we are really all wrestling with this, trying to figure out what it means. Right. So I don't think anyone I, the reason I have the Scalache laws kind of give me the willies a little bit is like, I, I was joking that we should just call them the Scalache best guesses, because like, I don't want people to think that that's like some iron law.[00:41:52] Sam Schillace: We're all trying to figure this stuff out. Right. Like some of it's right. Some it's not right. It's going to be messy. We'll have false starts, but yeah, we're all working it out. So that's the fun conversation. All[00:42:02] Ben Dunphy: right. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks so much for coming on.[00:42:05] Final Plug for Tickets & CFP[00:42:05] Ben Dunphy: For those of you listening, interested in attending AI Engineer World's Fair, you can purchase your tickets today.[00:42:11] Ben Dunphy: Learn more about the event at ai. engineer. You can purchase even group discounts. If you purchase four more tickets, use the code GROUP, and one of those four tickets will be free. If you want to speak at the event CFP closes April 8th, so check out the link at ai. engineer, send us your proposals for talks, workshops, or discussion groups.[00:42:33] Ben Dunphy: So if you want to come to THE event of the year for AI engineers, the technical event of the year for AI engineers this is at June 25, 26, and 27 in San Francisco. That's it! Get full access to Latent Space at www.latent.space/subscribe

Welcome to Season 3 of Uncarcerated with Leigh Scott and Kevin Scott. We have a super special episode to kick off Season 3 with as Kelly takes us through her journey of incarceration, trauma, addiction and a precipitous rise to community advocate. Amazing story!! --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/leigh-scott5/support

Our next SF event is AI UX 2024 - let's see the new frontier for UX since last year! Last call: we are recording a preview of the AI Engineer World's Fair with swyx and Ben Dunphy, send any questions about Speaker CFPs and Sponsor Guides you have!Alessio is now hiring engineers for a new startup he is incubating at Decibel: Ideal candidate is an “ex-technical co-founder type”. Reach out to him for more!David Luan has been at the center of the modern AI revolution: he was the ~30th hire at OpenAI, he led Google's LLM efforts and co-led Google Brain, and then started Adept in 2022, one of the leading companies in the AI agents space. In today's episode, we asked David for some war stories from his time in early OpenAI (including working with Alec Radford ahead of the GPT-2 demo with Sam Altman, that resulted in Microsoft's initial $1b investment), and how Adept is building agents that can “do anything a human does on a computer" — his definition of useful AGI.Why Google *couldn't* make GPT-3While we wanted to discuss Adept, we couldn't talk to a former VP Eng of OpenAI and former LLM tech lead at Google Brain and not ask about the elephant in the room. It's often asked how Google had such a huge lead in 2017 with Vaswani et al creating the Transformer and Noam Shazeer predicting trillion-parameter models and yet it was David's team at OpenAI who ended up making GPT 1/2/3. David has some interesting answers:“So I think the real story of GPT starts at Google, of course, right? Because that's where Transformers sort of came about. However, the number one shocking thing to me was that, and this is like a consequence of the way that Google is organized…what they (should) have done would be say, hey, Noam Shazeer, you're a brilliant guy. You know how to scale these things up. Here's half of all of our TPUs. And then I think they would have destroyed us. He clearly wanted it too…You know, every day we were scaling up GPT-3, I would wake up and just be stressed. And I was stressed because, you know, you just look at the facts, right? Google has all this compute. Google has all the people who invented all of these underlying technologies. There's a guy named Noam who's really smart, who's already gone and done this talk about how he wants a trillion parameter model. And I'm just like, we're probably just doing duplicative research to what he's doing. He's got this decoder only transformer that's probably going to get there before we do. And it turned out the whole time that they just couldn't get critical mass. So during my year where I led the Google LM effort and I was one of the brain leads, you know, it became really clear why. At the time, there was a thing called the Brain Credit Marketplace. Everyone's assigned a credit. So if you have a credit, you get to buy end chips according to supply and demand. So if you want to go do a giant job, you had to convince like 19 or 20 of your colleagues not to do work. And if that's how it works, it's really hard to get that bottom up critical mass to go scale these things. And the team at Google were fighting valiantly, but we were able to beat them simply because we took big swings and we focused.”Cloning HGI for AGIHuman intelligence got to where it is today through evolution. Some argue that to get to AGI, we will approximate all the “FLOPs” that went into that process, an approach most famously mapped out by Ajeya Cotra's Biological Anchors report:The early days of OpenAI were very reinforcement learning-driven with the Dota project, but that's a very inefficient way for these models to re-learn everything. (Kanjun from Imbue shared similar ideas in her episode).David argues that there's a shortcut. We can bootstrap from existing intelligence.“Years ago, I had a debate with a Berkeley professor as to what will it actually take to build AGI. And his view is basically that you have to reproduce all the flops that went into evolution in order to be able to get there… I think we are ignoring the fact that you have a giant shortcut, which is you can behaviorally clone everything humans already know. And that's what we solved with LLMs!”LLMs today basically model intelligence using all (good!) written knowledge (see our Datasets 101 episode), and have now expanded to non-verbal knowledge (see our HuggingFace episode on multimodality). The SOTA self-supervised pre-training process is surprisingly data-efficient in taking large amounts of unstructured data, and approximating reasoning without overfitting.But how do you cross the gap from the LLMs of today to building the AGI we all want? This is why David & friends left to start Adept.“We believe the clearest framing of general intelligence is a system that can do anything a human can do in front of a computer. A foundation model for actions, trained to use every software tool, API, and webapp that exists, is a practical path to this ambitious goal” — ACT-1 BlogpostCritical Path: Abstraction with ReliabilityThe AGI dream is fully autonomous agents, but there are levels to autonomy that we are comfortable giving our agents, based on how reliable they are. In David's word choice, we always want higher levels of “abstractions” (aka autonomy), but our need for “reliability” is the practical limit on how high of an abstraction we can use.“The critical path for Adept is we want to build agents that can do a higher and higher level abstraction things over time, all while keeping an insanely high reliability standard. Because that's what turns us from research into something that customers want. And if you build agents with really high reliability standard, but are continuing pushing a level of abstraction, you then learn from your users how to get that next level of abstraction faster. So that's how you actually build the data flow. That's the critical path for the company. Everything we do is in service of that.”We saw how Adept thinks about different levels of abstraction at the 2023 Summit:The highest abstraction is the “AI Employee”, but we'll get there with “AI enabled employees”. Alessio recently gave a talk about the future of work with “services as software” at this week's Nvidia GTC (slides).No APIsUnlike a lot of large research labs, Adept's framing of AGI as "being able to use your computer like a human" carries with it a useful environmental constraint:“Having a human robot lets you do things that humans do without changing everything along the way. It's the same thing for software, right? If you go itemize out the number of things you want to do on your computer for which every step has an API, those numbers of workflows add up pretty close to zero. And so then many points along the way, you need the ability to actually control your computer like a human. It also lets you learn from human usage of computers as a source of training data that you don't get if you have to somehow figure out how every particular step needs to be some particular custom private API thing. And so I think this is actually the most practical path (to economic value).”This realization and conviction means that multimodal modals are the way to go. Instead of using function calling to call APIs to build agents, which is what OpenAI and most of the open LLM industry have done to date, Adept wants to “drive by vision”, (aka see the screen as a human sees it) and pinpoint where to click and type as a human does. No APIs needed, because most software don't expose APIs.Extra context for readers: You can see the DeepMind SIMA model in the same light: One system that learned to play a diverse set of games (instead of one dedicated model per game) using only pixel inputs and keyboard-and-mouse action outputs!The OpenInterpreter team is working on a “Computer API” that also does the same.To do this, Adept had to double down on a special kind of multimodality for knowledge work:“A giant thing that was really necessary is really fast multimodal models that are really good at understanding knowledge work and really good at understanding screens. And that is needs to kind of be the base for some of these agents……I think one big hangover primarily academic focus for multimodal models is most multimodal models are primarily trained on like natural images, cat and dog photos, stuff that's come out of the camera… (but) where are they going to be the most useful? They're going to be most useful in knowledge work tasks. That's where the majority of economic value is going to be. It's not in cat and dogs. And so if that's what it is, what do you need to train? I need to train on like charts, graphs, tables, invoices, PDFs, receipts, unstructured data, UIs. That's just a totally different pre-training corpus. And so Adept spent a lot of time building that.”With this context, you can now understand the full path of Adept's public releases:* ACT-1 (Sept 2022): a large Transformers model optimized for browser interactions. It has a custom rendering of the browser viewport that allows it to better understand it and take actions.* Persimmon-8B (Sept 2023): a permissive open LLM (weights and code here)* Fuyu-8B (Oct 2023): a small version of the multimodal model that powers Adept. Vanilla decoder-only transformer with no specialized image encoder, which allows it to handle input images of varying resolutions without downsampling.* Adept Experiments (Nov 2023): A public tool to build automations in the browser. This is powered by Adept's core technology but it's just a piece of their enterprise platform. They use it as a way to try various design ideas.* Fuyu Heavy (Jan 2024) - a new multimodal model designed specifically for digital agents and the world's third-most-capable multimodal model (beating Gemini Pro on MMMU, AI2D, and ChartQA), “behind only GPT4-V and Gemini Ultra, which are 10-20 times bigger”The Fuyu-8B post in particular exhibits a great number of examples on knowledge work multimodality:Why Adept is NOT a Research LabWith OpenAI now worth >$90b and Anthropic >$18b, it is tempting to conclude that the AI startup metagame is to build a large research lab, and attract the brightest minds and highest capital to build AGI. Our past guests (see the Humanloop episode) and (from Imbue) combined to ask the most challenging questions of the pod - with David/Adept's deep research pedigree from Deepmind and OpenAI, why is Adept not building more general foundation models (like Persimmon) and playing the academic benchmarks game? Why is Adept so focused on commercial agents instead?“I feel super good that we're doing foundation models in service of agents and all of the reward within Adept is flowing from “Can we make a better agent”…… I think pure play foundation model companies are just going to be pinched by how good the next couple of (Meta Llama models) are going to be… And then seeing the really big players put ridiculous amounts of compute behind just training these base foundation models, I think is going to commoditize a lot of the regular LLMs and soon regular multimodal models. So I feel really good that we're just focused on agents.”and the commercial grounding is his answer to Kanjun too (whom we also asked the inverse question to compare with Adept):“… the second reason I work at Adept is if you believe that actually having customers and a reward signal from customers lets you build AGI faster, which we really believe, then you should come here. And I think the examples for why that's true is for example, our evaluations are not academic evals. They're not simulator evals. They're like, okay, we have a customer that really needs us to do these particular things. We can do some of them. These are the ones they want us to, we can't do them at all. We've turned those into evals.. I think that's a degree of practicality that really helps.”And his customers seem pretty happy, because David didn't need to come on to do a sales pitch:David: “One of the things we haven't shared before is we're completely sold out for Q1.”Swyx: “Sold out of what?”David: “Sold out of bandwidth to onboard more customers.”Well, that's a great problem to have.Show Notes* David Luan* Dextro at Data Driven NYC (2015)* Adept* ACT-1* Persimmon-8B* Adept Experiments* Fuyu-8B* $350M Series B announcement* Amelia Wattenberger talk at AI Engineer Summit* FigureChapters* [00:00:00] Introductions* [00:01:14] Being employee #30 at OpenAI and its early days* [00:13:38] What is Adept and how do you define AGI?* [00:21:00] Adept's critical path and research directions* [00:26:23] How AI agents should interact with software and impact product development* [00:30:37] Analogies between AI agents and self-driving car development* [00:32:42] Balancing reliability, cost, speed and generality in AI agents* [00:37:30] Potential of foundation models for robotics* [00:39:22] Core research questions and reasons to work at AdeptTranscriptsAlessio [00:00:00]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO in Residence at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol.ai.Swyx [00:00:15]: Hey, and today we have David Luan, CEO, co-founder of Adept in the studio. Welcome.David [00:00:20]: Yeah, thanks for having me.Swyx [00:00:21]: Been a while in the works. I've met you socially at one of those VC events and you said that you were interested in coming on and glad we finally were able to make this happen.David: Yeah, happy to be part of it.Swyx: So we like to introduce the speaker and then also just like have you talk a little bit about like what's not on your LinkedIn, what people should just generally know about you. You started a company in college, which was the first sort of real time video detection classification API that was Dextro, and that was your route to getting acquired into Axon where you're a director of AI. Then you were the 30th hire at OpenAI?David [00:00:53]: Yeah, 30, 35, something around there. Something like that.Swyx [00:00:56]: So you were VP of Eng for two and a half years to two years, briefly served as tech lead of large models at Google, and then in 2022 started Adept. So that's the sort of brief CV. Is there anything else you like want to fill in the blanks or like people should know more about?David [00:01:14]: I guess a broader story was I joined OpenAI fairly early and I did that for about two and a half to three years leading engineering there. It's really funny, I think second or third day of my time at OpenAI, Greg and Ilya pulled me in a room and we're like, you know, you should take over our directs and we'll go mostly do IC work. So that was fun, just coalescing a bunch of teams out of a couple of early initiatives that had already happened. The company, the Dota effort was going pretty hard and then more broadly trying to put bigger picture direction around what we were doing with basic research. So I spent a lot of time doing that. And then I led Google's LLM efforts, but also co-led Google Brain was one of the brain leads more broadly. You know, there's been a couple of different eras of AI research, right? If we count everything before 2012 as prehistory, which people hate it when I say that, kind of had this like you and your three best friends write a research paper that changes the world period from like 2012 to 2017. And I think the game changed in 2017 and like most labs didn't realize it, but we at OpenAI really did. I think in large part helped by like Ilya's constant beating of the drum that the world would be covered in data centers. And I think-Swyx [00:02:15]: It's causally neat.David [00:02:16]: Yeah. Well, like I think we had conviction in that, but it wasn't until we started seeing results that it became clear that that was where we had to go. But also part of it as well was for OpenAI, like when I first joined, I think one of the jobs that I had to do was how do I tell a differentiated vision for who we were technically compared to, you know, hey, we're just smaller Google Brain, or like you work at OpenAI if you live in SF and don't want to commute to Mountain View or don't want to live in London, right? That's like not enough to like hang your technical identity as a company. And so what we really did was, and I spent a lot of time pushing this, is just how do we get ourselves focused on a certain class of like giant swings and bets, right? Like how do you flip the script from you just do bottom-up research to more about how do you like leave some room for that, but really make it about like, what are the big scientific outcomes that you want to show? And then you just solve them at all costs, whether or not you care about novelty and all that stuff. And that became the dominant model for a couple of years, right? And then what's changed now is I think the number one driver of AI products over the next couple of years is going to be the deep co-design and co-evolution of product and users for feedback and actual technology. And I think labs, every tool to go do that are going to do really well. And that's a big part of why I started Adept.Alessio [00:03:20]: You mentioned Dota, any memories thinking from like the switch from RL to Transformers at the time and kind of how the industry was evolving more in the LLM side and leaving behind some of the more agent simulation work?David [00:03:33]: Like zooming way out, I think agents are just absolutely the correct long-term direction, right? You just go to find what AGI is, right? You're like, Hey, like, well, first off, actually, I don't love AGI definitions that involve human replacement because I don't think that's actually how it's going to happen. Even this definition of like, Hey, AGI is something that outperforms humans at economically valuable tasks is kind of implicit view of the world about what's going to be the role of people. I think what I'm more interested in is like a definition of AGI that's oriented around like a model that can do anything a human can do on a computer. If you go think about that, which is like super tractable, then agent is just a natural consequence of that definition. And so what did all the work we did on our own stuff like that get us was it got us a really clear formulation. Like you have a goal and you want to maximize the goal, you want to maximize reward, right? And the natural LLM formulation doesn't come with that out of the box, right? I think that we as a field got a lot right by thinking about, Hey, how do we solve problems of that caliber? And then the thing we forgot is the Novo RL is like a pretty terrible way to get there quickly. Why are we rediscovering all the knowledge about the world? Years ago, I had a debate with a Berkeley professor as to what will it actually take to build AGI. And his view is basically that you have to reproduce all the flops that went into evolution in order to be able to get there. Right.Swyx [00:04:44]: The biological basis theory. Right.David [00:04:46]: So I think we are ignoring the fact that you have a giant shortcut, which is you can behavioral clone everything humans already know. And that's what we solved with LLMs. We've solved behavioral cloning, everything that humans already know. Right. So like today, maybe LLMs is like behavioral cloning every word that gets written on the internet in the future, the multimodal models are becoming more of a thing where behavioral cloning the visual world. But really, what we're just going to have is like a universal byte model, right? Where tokens of data that have high signal come in, and then all of those patterns are like learned by the model. And then you can regurgitate any combination now. Right. So text into voice out, like image into other image out or video out or whatever, like these like mappings, right? Like all just going to be learned by this universal behavioral cloner. And so I'm glad we figured that out. And I think now we're back to the era of how do we combine this with all of the lessons we learned during the RL period. That's what's going to drive progress.Swyx [00:05:35]: I'm still going to pressure you for a few more early opening stories before we turn to the ADET stuff. On your personal site, which I love, because it's really nice, like personal, you know, story context around like your history. I need to update it. It's so old. Yeah, it's so out of date. But you mentioned GPT-2. Did you overlap with GPT-1? I think you did, right?David [00:05:53]: I actually don't quite remember. I think I was joining right around- Right around then?Swyx [00:05:57]: I was right around that, yeah. Yeah. So what I remember was Alec, you know, just kind of came in and was like very obsessed with Transformers and applying them to like Reddit sentiment analysis. Yeah, sentiment, that's right. Take us through-David [00:06:09]: Sentiment neuron, all this stuff.Swyx [00:06:10]: The history of GPT as far as you know, you know, according to you. Ah, okay.David [00:06:14]: History of GPT, according to me, that's a pretty good question. So I think the real story of GPT starts at Google, of course, right? Because that's where Transformers sort of came about. However, the number one shocking thing to me was that, and this is like a consequence of the way that Google is organized, where like, again, you and your three best friends write papers, right? Okay. So zooming way out, right? I think about my job when I was a full-time research leader as a little bit of a portfolio allocator, right? So I've got really, really smart people. My job is to convince people to coalesce around a small number of really good ideas and then run them over the finish line. My job is not actually to promote a million ideas and never have critical mass. And then as the ideas start coming together and some of them start working well, my job is to nudge resources towards the things that are really working and then start disbanding some of the things that are not working, right? That muscle did not exist during my time at Google. And I think had they had it, what they would have done would be say, hey, Noam Shazir, you're a brilliant guy. You know how to scale these things up. Here's half of all of our TPUs. And then I think they would have destroyed us. He clearly wanted it too.Swyx [00:07:17]: He's talking about trillion parameter models in 2017.David [00:07:20]: Yeah. So that's the core of the GPT story, right? Which is that, and I'm jumping around historically, right? But after GPT-2, we were all really excited about GPT-2. I can tell you more stories about that. It was the last paper that I even got to really touch before everything became more about building a research org. You know, every day we were scaling up GPT-3, I would wake up and just be stressed. And I was stressed because, you know, you just look at the facts, right? Google has all this compute. Google has all the people who invented all of these underlying technologies. There's a guy named Noam who's really smart, who's already gone and done this talk about how he wants a trillion parameter model. And I'm just like, we're probably just doing duplicative research to what he's doing, right? He's got this decoder only transformer that's probably going to get there before we do. And I was like, but like, please just like let this model finish, right? And it turned out the whole time that they just couldn't get critical mass. So during my year where I led the Google LM effort and I was one of the brain leads, you know, it became really clear why, right? At the time, there was a thing called the brain credit marketplace. And did you guys know the brain credit marketplace? No, I never heard of this. Oh, so it's actually, it's a, you can ask any Googler.Swyx [00:08:23]: It's like just like a thing that, that, I mean, look like, yeah, limited resources, you got to have some kind of marketplace, right? You know, sometimes it's explicit, sometimes it isn't, you know, just political favors.David [00:08:34]: You could. And so then basically everyone's assigned a credit, right? So if you have a credit, you get to buy end chips according to supply and demand. So if you want to go do a giant job, you had to convince like 19 or 20 of your colleagues not to do work. And if that's how it works, it's really hard to get that bottom up critical mass to go scale these things. And the team at Google were fighting valiantly, but we were able to beat them simply because we took big swings and we focused. And I think, again, that's like part of the narrative of like this phase one of AI, right? Of like this modern AI era to phase two. And I think in the same way, I think phase three company is going to out execute phase two companies because of the same asymmetry of success.Swyx [00:09:12]: Yeah. I think it's underrated how much NVIDIA works with you in the early days as well. I think maybe, I think it was Jensen. I'm not sure who circulated a recent photo of him delivering the first DGX to you guys.David [00:09:24]: I think Jensen has been a complete legend and a mastermind throughout. I have so much respect for NVIDIA. It is unreal.Swyx [00:09:34]: But like with OpenAI, like kind of give their requirements, like co-design it or just work of whatever NVIDIA gave them.David [00:09:40]: So we work really closely with them. There's, I'm not sure I can share all the stories, but examples of ones that I've found particularly interesting. So Scott Gray is amazing. I really like working with him. He was on one of my teams, the supercomputing team, which Chris Berner runs and Chris Berner still does a lot of stuff in that. As a result, like we had very close ties to NVIDIA. Actually, one of my co-founders at Adept, Eric Elson, was also one of the early GPGPU people. So he and Scott and Brian Catanzaro at NVIDIA and Jonah and Ian at NVIDIA, I think all were very close. And we're all sort of part of this group of how do we push these chips to the absolute limit? And I think that kind of collaboration helped quite a bit. I think one interesting set of stuff is knowing the A100 generation, that like quad sparsity was going to be a thing. Is that something that we want to go look into, right? And figure out if that's something that we could actually use for model training. Really what it boils down to is that, and I think more and more people realize this, six years ago, people, even three years ago, people refused to accept it. This era of AI is really a story of compute. It's really the story of how do you more efficiently map actual usable model flops to compute,Swyx [00:10:38]: Is there another GPT 2, 3 story that you love to get out there that you think is underappreciated for the amount of work that people put into it?David [00:10:48]: So two interesting GPT 2 stories. One of them was I spent a good bit of time just sprinting to help Alec get the paper out. And I remember one of the most entertaining moments was we were writing the modeling section. And I'm pretty sure the modeling section was the shortest modeling section of any ML, reasonably legitimate ML paper to that moment. It was like section three model. This is a standard vanilla decoder only transformer with like these particular things, those paragraph long if I remember correctly. And both of us were just looking at the same being like, man, the OGs in the field are going to hate this. They're going to say no novelty. Why did you guys do this work? So now it's funny to look at in hindsight that it was pivotal kind of paper, but I think it was one of the early ones where we just leaned fully into all we care about is solving problems in AI and not about, hey, is there like four different really simple ideas that are cloaked in mathematical language that doesn't actually help move the field forward?Swyx [00:11:42]: Right. And it's like you innovate on maybe like data set and scaling and not so much the architecture.David [00:11:48]: We all know how it works now, right? Which is that there's a collection of really hard won knowledge that you get only by being at the frontiers of scale. And that hard won knowledge, a lot of it's not published. A lot of it is stuff that's actually not even easily reducible to what looks like a typical academic paper. But yet that's the stuff that helps differentiate one scaling program from another. You had a second one? So the second one is, there's like some details here that I probably shouldn't fully share, but hilariously enough for the last meeting we did with Microsoft before Microsoft invested in OpenAI, Sam Altman, myself and our CFO flew up to Seattle to do the final pitch meeting. And I'd been a founder before. So I always had a tremendous amount of anxiety about partner meetings, which this basically this is what it was. I had Kevin Scott and Satya and Amy Hood, and it was my job to give the technical slides about what's the path to AGI, what's our research portfolio, all of this stuff, but it was also my job to give the GPT-2 demo. We had a slightly bigger version of GPT-2 that we had just cut maybe a day or two before this flight up. And as we all know now, model behaviors you find predictable at one checkpoint are not predictable in another checkpoint. And so I'd spent all this time trying to figure out how to keep this thing on rails. I had my canned demos, but I knew I had to go turn it around over to Satya and Kevin and let them type anything in. And that just, that really kept me up all night.Swyx [00:13:06]: Nice. Yeah.Alessio [00:13:08]: I mean, that must have helped you talking about partners meeting. You raised $420 million for Adept. The last round was a $350 million Series B, so I'm sure you do great in partner meetings.Swyx [00:13:18]: Pitchers meetings. Nice.David [00:13:20]: No, that's a high compliment coming from a VC.Alessio [00:13:22]: Yeah, no, I mean, you're doing great already for us. Let's talk about Adept. And we were doing pre-prep and you mentioned that maybe a lot of people don't understand what Adept is. So usually we try and introduce the product and then have the founders fill in the blanks, but maybe let's do the reverse. Like what is Adept? Yeah.David [00:13:38]: So I think Adept is the least understood company in the broader space of foundational models plus agents. So I'll give some color and I'll explain what it is and I'll explain also why it's actually pretty different from what people would have guessed. So the goal for Adept is we basically want to build an AI agent that can do, that can basically help humans do anything a human does on a computer. And so what that really means is we want this thing to be super good at turning natural language like goal specifications right into the correct set of end steps and then also have all the correct sensors and actuators to go get that thing done for you across any software tool that you already use. And so the end vision of this is effectively like I think in a couple of years everyone's going to have access to like an AI teammate that they can delegate arbitrary tasks to and then also be able to, you know, use it as a sounding board and just be way, way, way more productive. Right. And just changes the shape of every job from something where you're mostly doing execution to something where you're mostly actually doing like these core liberal arts skills of what should I be doing and why. Right. And I find this like really exciting and motivating because I think it's actually a pretty different vision for how AGI will play out. I think systems like Adept are the most likely systems to be proto-AGIs. But I think the ways in which we are really counterintuitive to everybody is that we've actually been really quiet because we are not a developer company. We don't sell APIs. We don't sell open source models. We also don't sell bottom up products. We're not a thing that you go and click and download the extension and like we want more users signing up for that thing. We're actually an enterprise company. So what we do is we work with a range of different companies, some like late stage multi-thousand people startups, some fortune 500s, et cetera. And what we do for them is we basically give them an out of the box solution where big complex workflows that their employees do every day could be delegated to the model. And so we look a little different from other companies in that in order to go build this full agent thing, the most important thing you got to get right is reliability. So initially zooming way back when, one of the first things that DEP did was we released this demo called Act One, right? Act One was like pretty cool. It's like kind of become a hello world thing for people to show agent demos by going to Redfin and asking to buy a house somewhere because like we did that in the original Act One demo and like showed that, showed like Google Sheets, all this other stuff. Over the last like year since that has come out, there's been a lot of really cool demos and you go play with them and you realize they work 60% of the time. But since we've always been focused on how do we build an amazing enterprise product, enterprises can't use anything that isn't in the nines of reliability. And so we've actually had to go down a slightly different tech tree than what you might find in the prompt engineering sort of plays in the agent space to get that reliability. And we've decided to prioritize reliability over all else. So like one of our use cases is crazy enough that it actually ends with a physical truck being sent to a place as the result of the agent workflow. And if you're like, if that works like 60% of the time, you're just blowing money and poor truck drivers going places.Alessio [00:16:30]: Interesting. One of the, our investment teams has this idea of services as software. I'm actually giving a talk at NVIDIA GTC about this, but basically software as a service, you're wrapping user productivity in software with agents and services as software is replacing things that, you know, you would ask somebody to do and the software just does it for you. When you think about these use cases, do the users still go in and look at the agent kind of like doing the things and can intervene or like are they totally removed from them? Like the truck thing is like, does the truck just show up or are there people in the middle checking in?David [00:17:04]: I think there's two current flaws in the framing for services as software, or I think what you just said. I think that one of them is like in our experience, as we've been rolling out Adept, the people who actually do the jobs are the most excited about it because they don't go from, I do this job to, I don't do this job. They go from, I do this job for everything, including the shitty rote stuff to I'm a supervisor. And I literally like, it's pretty magical when you watch the thing being used because now it parallelizes a bunch of the things that you had to do sequentially by hand as a human. And you can just click into any one of them and be like, Hey, I want to watch the trajectory that the agent went through to go solve this. And the nice thing about agent execution as opposed to like LLM generations is that a good chunk of the time when the agent fails to execute, it doesn't give you the wrong result. It just fails to execute. And the whole trajectory is just broken and dead and the agent knows it, right? So then those are the ones that the human then goes and solves. And so then they become a troubleshooter. They work on the more challenging stuff. They get way, way more stuff done and they're really excited about it. I think the second piece of it that we've found is our strategy as a company is to always be an augmentation company. And I think one out of principle, that's something we really care about. But two, actually, if you're framing yourself as an augmentation company, you're always going to live in a world where you're solving tasks that are a little too hard for what the model can do today and still needs a human to provide oversight, provide clarifications, provide human feedback. And that's how you build a data flywheel. That's how you actually learn from the smartest humans how to solve things models can't do today. And so I actually think that being an augmentation company forces you to go develop your core AI capabilities faster than someone who's saying, ah, okay, my job is to deliver you a lights off solution for X.Alessio [00:18:42]: Yeah. It's interesting because we've seen two parts of the market. One is we have one company that does agents for SOC analysts. People just don't have them, you know, and just they cannot attract the talent to do it. And similarly, in a software development, you have Copilot, which is the augmentation product, and then you have sweep.dev and you have these products, which they just do the whole thing. I'm really curious to see how that evolves. I agree that today the reliability is so important in the enterprise that they just don't use most of them. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's cool. But it's great to hear the story because I think from the outside, people are like, oh, a dev, they do Act One, they do Persimon, they do Fuyu, they do all this stuff. Yeah, it's just the public stuff.Swyx [00:19:20]: It's just public stuff.David [00:19:21]: So one of the things we haven't shared before is we're completely sold out for Q1. And so I think...Swyx [00:19:26]: Sold out of what?David [00:19:27]: Sold out of bandwidth to go on board more customers. And so we're like working really hard to go make that less of a bottleneck, but our expectation is that I think we're going to be significantly more public about the broader product shape and the new types of customers we want to attract later this year. So I think that clarification will happen by default.Swyx [00:19:43]: Why have you become more public? You know, if the whole push has... You're sold out, you're my enterprise, but you're also clearly putting effort towards being more open or releasing more things.David [00:19:53]: I think we just flipped over that way fairly recently. That's a good question. I think it actually boils down to two things. One, I think that, frankly, a big part of it is that the public narrative is really forming around agents as being the most important thing. And I'm really glad that's happening because when we started the company in January 2022, everybody in the field knew about the agents thing from RL, but the general public had no conception of what it was. They were still hanging their narrative hat on the tree of everything's a chatbot. And so I think now one of the things that I really care about is that when people think agent, they actually think the right thing. All sorts of different things are being called agents. Chatbots are being called agents. Things that make a function call are being called agents. To me, an agent is something that you can give a goal and get an end step workflow done correctly in the minimum number of steps. And so that's a big part of why. And I think the other part is because I think it's always good for people to be more aware of Redept as they think about what the next thing they want to do in their careers. The field is quickly pivoting in a world where foundation models are looking more and more commodity. And I think a huge amount of gain is going to happen from how do you use foundation models as the well-learned behavioral cloner to go solve agents. And I think people who want to do agents research should really come to Redept.Swyx [00:21:00]: When you say agents have become more part of the public narrative, are there specific things that you point to? I'll name a few. Bill Gates in his blog post mentioning that agents are the future. I'm the guy who made OSes, and I think agents are the next thing. So Bill Gates, I'll call that out. And then maybe Sam Altman also saying that agents are the future for open AI.David [00:21:17]: I think before that even, I think there was something like the New York Times, Cade Metz wrote a New York Times piece about it. Right now, in a bit to differentiate, I'm seeing AI startups that used to just brand themselves as an AI company, but now brand themselves as an AI agent company. It's just like, it's a term I just feel like people really want.Swyx [00:21:31]: From the VC side, it's a bit mixed. Is it? As in like, I think there are a lot of VCs where like, I would not touch any agent startups because like- Why is that? Well, you tell me.Alessio [00:21:41]: I think a lot of VCs that are maybe less technical don't understand the limitations of the-Swyx [00:21:46]: No, that's not fair.Alessio [00:21:47]: No, no, no, no. I think like- You think so? No, no. I think like the, what is possible today and like what is worth investing in, you know? And I think like, I mean, people look at you and say, well, these guys are building agents. They needed 400 million to do it. So a lot of VCs are maybe like, oh, I would rather invest in something that is tacking on AI to an existing thing, which is like easier to get the market and kind of get some of the flywheel going. But I'm also surprised a lot of funders just don't want to do agents. It's not even the funding. Sometimes we look around and it's like, why is nobody doing agents for X? Wow.David [00:22:17]: That's good to know actually. I never knew that before. My sense from my limited perspective is there's a new agent company popping up every day.Swyx [00:22:24]: So maybe I'm- They are. They are. But like I have advised people to take agents off of their title because it's so diluted.David [00:22:31]: It's now so diluted.Swyx [00:22:32]: Yeah. So then it doesn't stand for anything. Yeah.David [00:22:35]: That's a really good point.Swyx [00:22:36]: So like, you know, you're a portfolio allocator. You have people know about Persimmon, people know about Fuyu and Fuyu Heavy. Can you take us through like how you think about that evolution of that and what people should think about what that means for adepts and sort of research directions? Kind of take us through the stuff you shipped recently and how people should think about the trajectory of what you're doing.David [00:22:56]: The critical path for adepts is we want to build agents that can do a higher and higher level abstraction things over time, all while keeping an insanely high reliability standard. Because that's what turns us from research into something that customers want. And if you build agents with really high reliability standard, but are continuing pushing a level of abstraction, you then learn from your users how to get that next level of abstraction faster. So that's how you actually build the data flow. That's the critical path for the company. Everything we do is in service of that. So if you go zoom way, way back to Act One days, right? Like the core thing behind Act One is can we teach large model basically how to even actuate your computer? And I think we're one of the first places to have solved that and shown it and shown the generalization that you get when you give it various different workflows and texts. But I think from there on out, we really realized was that in order to get reliability, companies just do things in various different ways. You actually want these models to be able to get a lot better at having some specification of some guardrails for what it actually should be doing. And I think in conjunction with that, a giant thing that was really necessary is really fast multimodal models that are really good at understanding knowledge work and really good at understanding screens. And that is needs to kind of be the base for some of these agents. Back then we had to do a ton of research basically on how do we actually make that possible? Well, first off, like back in forgot exactly one month to 23, like there were no multimodal models really that you could use for things like this. And so we pushed really hard on stuff like the Fuyu architecture. I think one big hangover primarily academic focus for multimodal models is most multimodal models are primarily trained on like natural images, cat and dog photos, stuff that's come out of the camera. Coco. Yeah, right. And the Coco is awesome. Like I love Coco. I love TY. Like it's really helped the field. Right. But like that's the build one thing. I actually think it's really clear today. Multimodal models are the default foundation model, right? It's just going to supplant LLMs. Like you just train a giant multimodal model. And so for that though, like where are they going to be the most useful? They're going to be most useful in knowledge work tasks. That's where the majority of economic value is going to be. It's not in cat and dogs. Right. And so if that's what it is, what do you need to train? I need to train on like charts, graphs, tables, invoices, PDFs, receipts, unstructured data, UIs. That's just a totally different pre-training corpus. And so a depth spent a lot of time building that. And so the public for use and stuff aren't trained on our actual corpus, it's trained on some other stuff. But you take a lot of that data and then you make it really fast and make it really good at things like dense OCR on screens. And then now you have the right like raw putty to go make a good agent. So that's kind of like some of the modeling side, we've kind of only announced some of that stuff. We haven't really announced much of the agent's work, but that if you put those together with the correct product form factor, and I think the product form factor also really matters. I think we're seeing, and you guys probably see this a little bit more than I do, but we're seeing like a little bit of a pushback against the tyranny of chatbots as form factor. And I think that the reason why the form factor matters is the form factor changes what data you collect in the human feedback loop. And so I think we've spent a lot of time doing full vertical integration of all these bits in order to get to where we are.Swyx [00:25:44]: Yeah. I'll plug Amelia Wattenberger's talk at our conference, where she gave a little bit of the thinking behind like what else exists other than chatbots that if you could delegate to reliable agents, you could do. I was kind of excited at Adept experiments or Adept workflows, I don't know what the official name for it is. I was like, okay, like this is something I can use, but it seems like it's just an experiment for now. It's not your product.David [00:26:06]: So you basically just use experiments as like a way to go push various ideas on the design side to some people and just be like, yeah, we'll play with it. Actually the experiments code base underpins the actual product, but it's just the code base itself is kind of like a skeleton for us to go deploy arbitrary cards on the side.Swyx [00:26:22]: Yeah.Alessio [00:26:23]: Makes sense. I was going to say, I would love to talk about the interaction layer. So you train a model to see UI, but then there's the question of how do you actually act on the UI? I think there was some rumors about open app building agents that are kind of like, they manage the end point. So the whole computer, you're more at the browser level. I read in one of your papers, you have like a different representation, kind of like you don't just take the dome and act on it. You do a lot more stuff. How do you think about the best way the models will interact with the software and like how the development of products is going to change with that in mind as more and more of the work is done by agents instead of people?David [00:26:58]: This is, there's so much surface area here and it's actually one of the things I'm really excited about. And it's funny because I've spent most of my time doing research stuff, but there's like a whole new ball game that I've been learning about and I find it really cool. So I would say the best analogy I have to why Adept is pursuing a path of being able to use your computer like a human, plus of course being able to call APIs and being able to call APIs is the easy part, like being able to use your computer like a human is a hard part. It's in the same way why people are excited about humanoid robotics, right? In a world where you had T equals infinity, right? You're probably going to have various different form factors that robots could just be in and like all the specialization. But the fact is that humans live in a human environment. So having a human robot lets you do things that humans do without changing everything along the way. It's the same thing for software, right? If you go itemize out the number of things you want to do on your computer for which every step has an API, those numbers of workflows add up pretty close to zero. And so then many points along the way, you need the ability to actually control your computer like a human. It also lets you learn from human usage of computers as a source of training data that you don't get if you have to somehow figure out how every particular step needs to be some particular custom private API thing. And so I think this is actually the most practical path. I think because it's the most practical path, I think a lot of success will come from going down this path. I kind of think about this early days of the agent interaction layer level is a little bit like, do you all remember Windows 3.1? Like those days? Okay, this might be, I might be, I might be too old for you guys on this. But back in the day, Windows 3.1, we had this transition period between pure command line, right? Being the default into this new world where the GUI is the default and then you drop into the command line for like programmer things, right? The old way was you booted your computer up, DOS booted, and then it would give you the C colon slash thing. And you typed Windows and you hit enter, and then you got put into Windows. And then the GUI kind of became a layer above the command line. The same thing is going to happen with agent interfaces is like today we'll be having the GUI is like the base layer. And then the agent just controls the current GUI layer plus APIs. And in the future, as more and more trust is built towards agents and more and more things can be done by agents, if more UIs for agents are actually generative in and of themselves, then that just becomes a standard interaction layer. And if that becomes a standard interaction layer, what changes for software is that a lot of software is going to be either systems or record or like certain customized workflow execution engines. And a lot of how you actually do stuff will be controlled at the agent layer.Alessio [00:29:19]: And you think the rabbit interface is more like it would like you're not actually seeing the app that the model interacts with. You're just saying, hey, I need to log this call on Salesforce. And you're never actually going on salesforce.com directly as the user. I can see that being a model.David [00:29:33]: I think I don't know enough about what using rabbit in real life will actually be like to comment on that particular thing. But I think the broader idea that, you know, you have a goal, right? The agent knows how to break your goal down into steps. The agent knows how to use the underlying software and systems or record to achieve that goal for you. The agent maybe presents you information in a custom way that's only relevant to your particular goal, all just really leads to a world where you don't really need to ever interface with the apps underneath unless you're a power user for some niche thing.Swyx [00:30:03]: General question. So first of all, I think like the sort of input mode conversation. I wonder if you have any analogies that you like with self-driving, because I do think like there's a little bit of how the model should perceive the world. And you know, the primary split in self-driving is LiDAR versus camera. And I feel like most agent companies that I'm tracking are all moving towards camera approach, which is like the multimodal approach, you know, multimodal vision, very heavy vision, all the Fuyu stuff that you're doing. You're focusing on that, including charts and tables. And do you find that inspiration there from like the self-driving world? That's a good question.David [00:30:37]: I think sometimes the most useful inspiration I've found from self-driving is the levels analogy. I think that's awesome. But I think that our number one goal is for agents not to look like self-driving. We want to minimize the chances that agents are sort of a thing that you just have to bang your head at for a long time to get to like two discontinuous milestones, which is basically what's happened in self-driving. We want to be living in a world where you have the data flywheel immediately, and that takes you all the way up to the top. But similarly, I mean, compared to self-driving, like two things that people really undervalue is like really easy to driving a car down highway 101 in a sunny day demo. That actually doesn't prove anything anymore. And I think the second thing is that as a non-self-driving expert, I think one of the things that we believe really strongly is that everyone undervalues the importance of really good sensors and actuators. And actually a lot of what's helped us get a lot of reliability is a really strong focus on actually why does the model not do this thing? And the non-trivial amount of time, the time the model doesn't actually do the thing is because if you're a wizard of ozzing it yourself, or if you have unreliable actuators, you can't do the thing. And so we've had to fix a lot of those problems.Swyx [00:31:43]: I was slightly surprised just because I do generally consider the way most that we see all around San Francisco as the most, I guess, real case of agents that we have in very material ways.David [00:31:55]: Oh, that's absolutely true. I think they've done an awesome job, but it has taken a long time for self-driving to mature from when it entered the consciousness and the driving down 101 on a sunny day moment happened to now. Right. So I want to see that more compressed.Swyx [00:32:07]: And I mean, you know, cruise, you know, RIP. And then one more thing on just like, just going back on this reliability thing, something I have been holding in my head that I'm curious to get your commentary on is I think there's a trade-off between reliability and generality, or I want to broaden reliability into just general like sort of production readiness and enterprise readiness scale. Because you have reliability, you also have cost, you have speed, speed is a huge emphasis for a debt. The tendency or the temptation is to reduce generality to improve reliability and to improve cost, improve speed. Do you perceive a trade-off? Do you have any insights that solve those trade-offs for you guys?David [00:32:42]: There's definitely a trade-off. If you're at the Pareto frontier, I think a lot of folks aren't actually at the Pareto frontier. I think the way you get there is basically how do you frame the fundamental agent problem in a way that just continues to benefit from data? I think one of the main ways of being able to solve that particular trade-off is you basically just want to formulate the problem such that every particular use case just looks like you collecting more data to go make that use case possible. I think that's how you really solve. Then you get into the other problems like, okay, are you overfitting on these end use cases? You're not doing a thing where you're being super prescriptive for the end steps that the model can only do, for example.Swyx [00:33:17]: Then the question becomes, do you have one house model that you can then customize for each customer and you're fine-tuning them on each customer's specific use case?David [00:33:25]: Yeah.Swyx [00:33:26]: We're not sharing that. You're not sharing that. It's tempting, but that doesn't look like AGI to me. You know what I mean? That is just you have a good base model and then you fine-tune it.David [00:33:35]: For what it's worth, I think there's two paths to a lot more capability coming out of the models that we all are training these days. I think one path is you figure out how to spend, compute, and turn it into data. In that path, I consider search, RL, all the things that we all love in this era as part of that path, like self-play, all that stuff. The second path is how do you get super competent, high intelligence demonstrations from humans? I think the right way to move forward is you kind of want to combine the two. The first one gives you maximum sample efficiency for a little second, but I think that it's going to be hard to be running at max speed towards AGI without actually solving a bit of both.Swyx [00:34:16]: You haven't talked much about synthetic data, as far as I can tell. Probably this is a bit too much of a trend right now, but any insights on using synthetic data to augment the expensive human data?David [00:34:26]: The best part about framing AGI as being able to help people do things on computers is you have an environment.Swyx [00:34:31]: Yes. So you can simulate all of it.David [00:34:35]: You can do a lot of stuff when you have an environment.Alessio [00:34:37]: We were having dinner for our one-year anniversary. Congrats. Yeah. Thank you. Raza from HumanLoop was there, and we mentioned you were coming on the pod. This is our first-Swyx [00:34:45]: So he submitted a question.Alessio [00:34:46]: Yeah, this is our first, I guess, like mailbag question. He asked, when you started GPD 4 Data and Exist, now you have a GPD 4 vision and help you building a lot of those things. How do you think about the things that are unique to you as Adept, and like going back to like the maybe research direction that you want to take the team and what you want people to come work on at Adept, versus what is maybe now become commoditized that you didn't expect everybody would have access to?David [00:35:11]: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think implicit in that question, and I wish he were tier two so he can push back on my assumption about his question, but I think implicit in that question is calculus of where does advantage accrue in the overall ML stack. And maybe part of the assumption is that advantage accrues solely to base model scaling. But I actually believe pretty strongly that the way that you really win is that you have to go build an agent stack that is much more than that of the base model itself. And so I think like that is always going to be a giant advantage of vertical integration. I think like it lets us do things like have a really, really fast base model, is really good at agent things, but is bad at cat and dog photos. It's pretty good at cat and dog photos. It's not like soda at cat and dog photos, right? So like we're allocating our capacity wisely, right? That's like one thing that you really get to do. I also think that the other thing that is pretty important now in the broader foundation modeling space is I feel despite any potential concerns about how good is agents as like a startup area, right? Like we were talking about earlier, I feel super good that we're doing foundation models in service of agents and all of the reward within Adept is flowing from can we make a better agent? Because right now I think we all see that, you know, if you're training on publicly available web data, you put in the flops and you do reasonable things, then you get decent results. And if you just double the amount of compute, then you get predictably better results. And so I think pure play foundation model companies are just going to be pinched by how good the next couple of llamas are going to be and the next what good open source thing. And then seeing the really big players put ridiculous amounts of compute behind just training these base foundation models, I think is going to commoditize a lot of the regular LLMs and soon regular multimodal models. So I feel really good that we're just focused on agents.Swyx [00:36:56]: So you don't consider yourself a pure play foundation model company?David [00:36:59]: No, because if we were a pure play foundation model company, we would be training general foundation models that do summarization and all this other...Swyx [00:37:06]: You're dedicated towards the agent. Yeah.David [00:37:09]: And our business is an agent business. We're not here to sell you tokens, right? And I think like selling tokens, unless there's like a...Swyx [00:37:14]: Not here to sell you tokens. I love it.David [00:37:16]: It's like if you have a particular area of specialty, right? Then you won't get caught in the fact that everyone's just scaling to ridiculous levels of compute. But if you don't have a specialty, I find that, I think it's going to be a little tougher.Swyx [00:37:27]: Interesting. Are you interested in robotics at all? Just a...David [00:37:30]: I'm personally fascinated by robotics. I've always loved robotics.Swyx [00:37:33]: Embodied agents as a business, you know, Figure is like a big, also sort of open AI affiliated company that raises a lot of money.David [00:37:39]: I think it's cool. I think, I mean, I don't know exactly what they're doing, but...Swyx [00:37:44]: Robots. Yeah.David [00:37:46]: Well, I mean, that's a...Swyx [00:37:47]: Yeah. What question would you ask? If we had them on, what would you ask them?David [00:37:50]: Oh, I just want to understand what their overall strategy is going to be between now and when there's reliable stuff to be deployed. But honestly, I just don't know enough about it.Swyx [00:37:57]: And if I told you, hey, fire your entire warehouse workforce and, you know, put robots in there, isn't that a strategy? Oh yeah.David [00:38:04]: Yeah. Sorry. I'm not questioning whether they're doing smart things. I genuinely don't know what they're doing as much, but I think there's two things. One, I'm so excited for someone to train a foundation model of robots. It's just, I think it's just going to work. Like I will die on this hill, but I mean, like again, this whole time, like we've been on this podcast, we're just going to continually saying these models are basically behavioral cloners. Right. So let's go behavioral clone all this like robot behavior. Right. And then you figure out everything else you have to do in order to teach you how to solve a new problem. That's going to work. I'm super stoked for that. I think unlike what we're doing with helping humans with knowledge work, it just sounds like a more zero sum job replacement play. Right. And I'm personally less excited about that.Alessio [00:38:46]: We had a Ken June from InBoo on the podcast. We asked her why people should go work there and not at Adept.Swyx [00:38:52]: Oh, that's so funny.Alessio [00:38:54]: Well, she said, you know, there's space for everybody in this market. We're all doing interesting work. And she said, they're really excited about building an operating system for agent. And for her, the biggest research thing was like getting models, better reasoning and planning for these agents. The reverse question to you, you know, why should people be excited to come work at Adept instead of InBoo? And maybe what are like the core research questions that people should be passionate about to have fun at Adept? Yeah.David [00:39:22]: First off, I think that I'm sure you guys believe this too. The AI space to the extent there's an AI space and the AI agent space are both exactly as she likely said, I think colossal opportunities and people are just going to end up winning in different areas and a lot of companies are going to do well. So I really don't feel that zero something at all. I would say to like change the zero sum framing is why should you be at Adept? I think there's two huge reasons to be at Adept. I think one of them is everything we do is in the service of like useful agents. We're not a research lab. We do a lot of research in service of that goal, but we don't think about ourselves as like a classic research lab at all. And I think the second reason I work at Adept is if you believe that actually having customers and a reward signal from customers lets you build a GI faster, which we really believe, then you should come here. And I think the examples for why that's true is for example, our evaluations, they're not academic evals. They're not simulator evals. They're like, okay, we have a customer that really needs us to do these particular things. We can do some of them. These are the ones they want us to, we can't do them at all. We've turned those into evals, solve it, right? I think that's really cool. Like everybody knows a lot of these evals are like pretty saturated and the new ones that even are not saturated. You look at someone and you're like, is this actually useful? Right? I think that's a degree of practicality that really helps. Like we're equally excited about the same problems around reasoning and planning and generalization and all of this stuff. They're very grounded in actual needs right now, which is really cool.Swyx [00:40:45]: Yeah. This has been a wonderful dive. You know, I wish we had more time, but I would just leave it kind of open to you. I think you have broad thoughts, you know, just about

On this episode, Paul, Richard, and Mikah talk AI developments, Windows 10 (yes, 10), Azure egress, and even VR gaming! Is the new Microsoft AI organization an "acquisition" in disguise? How did NVIDIA's recent GTC keynote go? Plus, why it makes sense for Apple to partner with Google for Gemini on iPhone. AI Reorg Microsoft has created a new Microsoft AI "organization" that reports directly to Satya Nadella Led by former Inflection co-founders and staffed in part by several ex-Inflection employees Microsoft CTO Kevin Scott, who orchestrated Microsoft's OpenAI partnership, will continue forward in his other role as executive vice president of AI and will remain responsible for Microsoft's overall AI strategy Mikhail Parakhin and the entire team responsible for Copilot, Bing, and Edge, plus Misha Bilenko and the GenAI team, will move into Microsoft AI. Rajesh Jha will continue as executive vice president of Experiences & Devices and will "partner closely with Mustafa and team" on Copilot for Microsoft 365. What does this mean for Windows? (Paul's guess: Not much. Windows is still presumably under Jha) Windows Windows 10 (Yes, 10, not 11) is getting new Sports, Traffic, and Finance cards on the lock screen for some reason No new Insider builds since last week! WHAAAAAT? Microsoft 365 No AI for you! Microsoft announces perpetual Office 2024 and Office 2024 LTSC for late 2024 AI for you! Microsoft 365 web apps now support Copilot Pro users Better AI for you! Free Copilot gets ChatGPT-4 Turbo (previously a paid feature) Microsoft follows Google and AWS, ends Azure egress fees - the other European Big Tech battleground AI Apple is almost certainly going to (try to) partner with Google on AI for iPhone How the F is Microsoft not part of this? Google I/O is set for May 14, Apple WWDC will be in June, both to focus on AI (duh) Microsoft to host "AI and Surface event" right before Build 2024 in May Nvidia is determined to not just ride the AI wave, but win it In the wake of a subtle rebranding, Google is bringing generative AI to Fitbit Amazon is bringing generative AI for product pages to sellers Xbox New games across Game Pass for the second half of March - including, for the first time, an Activision Blizzard title, Diablo IV Microsoft is killing the Microsoft Rewards app on Xbox... though there is a Rewards tab on your Profile page. LinkedIn is experimenting with games because everything has to suck now Sony halts PSVR2 production because no one wants to pay $550 for VR on PS5 Tips and Picks Tip of the week: Steam Sale goes through tomorrow (March 21) App picks of the week: Stardock ObjectDock 3, Proton Mail native app, Firefox 124 RunAs Radio this week: From SysAdmin to Platform Engineer with Steve Buchanan Brown liquor pick of the week: Bull Run Oregon Single Malt Whiskey Hosts: Paul Thurrott, Richard Campbell, and Mikah Sargent Download or subscribe to this show at https://twit.tv/shows/windows-weekly Get episodes ad-free with Club TWiT at https://twit.tv/clubtwit Check out Paul's blog at thurrott.com The Windows Weekly theme music is courtesy of Carl Franklin. Sponsors: zscaler.com/zerotrustAI Melissa.com/twit

On this episode, Paul, Richard, and Mikah talk AI developments, Windows 10 (yes, 10), Azure egress, and even VR gaming! Is the new Microsoft AI organization an "acquisition" in disguise? How did NVIDIA's recent GTC keynote go? Plus, why it makes sense for Apple to partner with Google for Gemini on iPhone. AI Reorg Microsoft has created a new Microsoft AI "organization" that reports directly to Satya Nadella Led by former Inflection co-founders and staffed in part by several ex-Inflection employees Microsoft CTO Kevin Scott, who orchestrated Microsoft's OpenAI partnership, will continue forward in his other role as executive vice president of AI and will remain responsible for Microsoft's overall AI strategy Mikhail Parakhin and the entire team responsible for Copilot, Bing, and Edge, plus Misha Bilenko and the GenAI team, will move into Microsoft AI. Rajesh Jha will continue as executive vice president of Experiences & Devices and will "partner closely with Mustafa and team" on Copilot for Microsoft 365. What does this mean for Windows? (Paul's guess: Not much. Windows is still presumably under Jha) Windows Windows 10 (Yes, 10, not 11) is getting new Sports, Traffic, and Finance cards on the lock screen for some reason No new Insider builds since last week! WHAAAAAT? Microsoft 365 No AI for you! Microsoft announces perpetual Office 2024 and Office 2024 LTSC for late 2024 AI for you! Microsoft 365 web apps now support Copilot Pro users Better AI for you! Free Copilot gets ChatGPT-4 Turbo (previously a paid feature) Microsoft follows Google and AWS, ends Azure egress fees - the other European Big Tech battleground AI Apple is almost certainly going to (try to) partner with Google on AI for iPhone How the F is Microsoft not part of this? Google I/O is set for May 14, Apple WWDC will be in June, both to focus on AI (duh) Microsoft to host "AI and Surface event" right before Build 2024 in May Nvidia is determined to not just ride the AI wave, but win it In the wake of a subtle rebranding, Google is bringing generative AI to Fitbit Amazon is bringing generative AI for product pages to sellers Xbox New games across Game Pass for the second half of March - including, for the first time, an Activision Blizzard title, Diablo IV Microsoft is killing the Microsoft Rewards app on Xbox... though there is a Rewards tab on your Profile page. LinkedIn is experimenting with games because everything has to suck now Sony halts PSVR2 production because no one wants to pay $550 for VR on PS5 Tips and Picks Tip of the week: Steam Sale goes through tomorrow (March 21) App picks of the week: Stardock ObjectDock 3, Proton Mail native app, Firefox 124 RunAs Radio this week: From SysAdmin to Platform Engineer with Steve Buchanan Brown liquor pick of the week: Bull Run Oregon Single Malt Whiskey Hosts: Paul Thurrott, Richard Campbell, and Mikah Sargent Download or subscribe to this show at https://twit.tv/shows/windows-weekly Get episodes ad-free with Club TWiT at https://twit.tv/clubtwit Check out Paul's blog at thurrott.com The Windows Weekly theme music is courtesy of Carl Franklin. Sponsors: zscaler.com/zerotrustAI Melissa.com/twit

On this episode, Paul, Richard, and Mikah talk AI developments, Windows 10 (yes, 10), Azure egress, and even VR gaming! Is the new Microsoft AI organization an "acquisition" in disguise? How did NVIDIA's recent GTC keynote go? Plus, why it makes sense for Apple to partner with Google for Gemini on iPhone. AI Reorg Microsoft has created a new Microsoft AI "organization" that reports directly to Satya Nadella Led by former Inflection co-founders and staffed in part by several ex-Inflection employees Microsoft CTO Kevin Scott, who orchestrated Microsoft's OpenAI partnership, will continue forward in his other role as executive vice president of AI and will remain responsible for Microsoft's overall AI strategy Mikhail Parakhin and the entire team responsible for Copilot, Bing, and Edge, plus Misha Bilenko and the GenAI team, will move into Microsoft AI. Rajesh Jha will continue as executive vice president of Experiences & Devices and will "partner closely with Mustafa and team" on Copilot for Microsoft 365. What does this mean for Windows? (Paul's guess: Not much. Windows is still presumably under Jha) Windows Windows 10 (Yes, 10, not 11) is getting new Sports, Traffic, and Finance cards on the lock screen for some reason No new Insider builds since last week! WHAAAAAT? Microsoft 365 No AI for you! Microsoft announces perpetual Office 2024 and Office 2024 LTSC for late 2024 AI for you! Microsoft 365 web apps now support Copilot Pro users Better AI for you! Free Copilot gets ChatGPT-4 Turbo (previously a paid feature) Microsoft follows Google and AWS, ends Azure egress fees - the other European Big Tech battleground AI Apple is almost certainly going to (try to) partner with Google on AI for iPhone How the F is Microsoft not part of this? Google I/O is set for May 14, Apple WWDC will be in June, both to focus on AI (duh) Microsoft to host "AI and Surface event" right before Build 2024 in May Nvidia is determined to not just ride the AI wave, but win it In the wake of a subtle rebranding, Google is bringing generative AI to Fitbit Amazon is bringing generative AI for product pages to sellers Xbox New games across Game Pass for the second half of March - including, for the first time, an Activision Blizzard title, Diablo IV Microsoft is killing the Microsoft Rewards app on Xbox... though there is a Rewards tab on your Profile page. LinkedIn is experimenting with games because everything has to suck now Sony halts PSVR2 production because no one wants to pay $550 for VR on PS5 Tips and Picks Tip of the week: Steam Sale goes through tomorrow (March 21) App picks of the week: Stardock ObjectDock 3, Proton Mail native app, Firefox 124 RunAs Radio this week: From SysAdmin to Platform Engineer with Steve Buchanan Brown liquor pick of the week: Bull Run Oregon Single Malt Whiskey Hosts: Paul Thurrott, Richard Campbell, and Mikah Sargent Download or subscribe to this show at https://twit.tv/shows/windows-weekly Get episodes ad-free with Club TWiT at https://twit.tv/clubtwit Check out Paul's blog at thurrott.com The Windows Weekly theme music is courtesy of Carl Franklin. Sponsors: zscaler.com/zerotrustAI Melissa.com/twit

Xyla Foxlin is an engineer and YouTuber with a passion for making things dating back to her early childhood love of art and creative exploration. What began as a way to entertain herself with whatever materials she could find blossomed into a career as a content creator and maker, showcasing her skills crafting everything from a rocket to a sailboat. In this episode, Xyla and Kevin discuss the challenges she's faced in the maker space, overcoming imposter syndrome, and the work she's done to help encourage other women and people of color interested in science, math, and engineering.  Xyla Foxlin | @xylafoxlin  Kevin Scott    Behind the Tech with Kevin Scott    Discover and listen to other Microsoft podcasts.    

Sam Schillace is deputy CTO and corporate vice president at Microsoft. Prior to working at Microsoft, Sam started a company called Writely, which was acquired by Google and became the foundation of what today is Google Docs. While at Google, Sam helped lead many of Google's consumer products, including Gmail, Blogger, PageCreator, Picasa, Reader, Groups, and more recently Maps and Google Automotive Services. Sam was also a principal investor at Google Ventures, has founded six startups, and was the SVP of engineering at Box through their IPO. In this episode, we discuss:• The journey of building Google Docs• The importance of taking risks, embracing failure, and finding joy in your work• The importance of asking “what if” questions vs. “why not”• Why convenience always wins• How, and why, Sam stays optimistic• Inside Microsoft's culture• Why you should solve problems without asking for permission• Early-career advice• Why “pixels are free” and “bots are docs”—Brought to you by Teal—Your personal career growth platform | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Ahrefs—Improve your website's SEO for free—Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-be-more-innovative-sam-schillace-microsoft-deputy-cto-creator-of-google-docs/—Where to find Sam Schillace:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/schillace/• Newsletter: https://sundaylettersfromsam.substack.com/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Sam's background(03:45) The first Google Docs file(06:45) Disruptive innovation(10:11) First-principles thinking(11:00) Recognizing disruptive ideas(13:17) Examples of first-principles thinking(15:46) The power of optimism(19:47) Sam's motto: Get to the edge of something and f**k around(21:53) User value and laziness(24:31) People are lazy (and what to do about it)(28:36) Building Google Docs(31:06) The evolution of Google Docs(37:15) Finding product-market fit(39:52) The future of documents(44:57) The value of playing with technology(47:58) Taking risks and embracing failure(49:21) Thinking in the future(53:48) Finding joy in your work(01:01:20) Just do the best you can(01:02:34) The transformational power of AI(01:09:27) Advice for approaching AI(01:13:07) The culture at Microsoft(01:16:51) Closing thoughts(01:17:32) Lightning round—Referenced:• Google Docs began as a hacked-together experiment, says creator: https://www.theverge.com/2013/7/3/4484000/sam-schillace-interview-google-docs-creator-box• Edna Mode: https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Edna_Mode• Sergey Brin's profile on Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/profile/sergey-brin/• People Who Were No Smarter Than You: https://medium.com/thrive-global/people-who-were-no-smarter-than-you-4e1c88c3fee6• Nat Torkington (O'Reilly Media): https://www.oreilly.com/people/nathan-torkington/• How Tesla Has Shaken (Not Stirred) Established Carmakers—and Why It Really Matters: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenniferdungs/2021/04/23/how-tesla-has-shaken-not-stirred-established-carmakersand-why-it-really-matters/• First Principles: Elon Musk on the Power of Thinking for Yourself: https://jamesclear.com/first-principles• Ashton Tate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashton-Tate• Learning by Doing: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/learning-doing-sam-schillace• Kevin Scott on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jkevinscott/• How do we make sense of all of this?: https://sundaylettersfromsam.substack.com/p/how-do-we-make-sense-of-all-of-this• Steve Newman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevescalyr/• Eric Schmidt on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-schmidt-02158951/• Michael Arrington on X: https://twitter.com/arrington• TechCrunch: https://techcrunch.com/• “Hello, Computer” scene from Star Trek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShY6xZWVGE• Writely—Process Words with your Browser: https://techcrunch.com/2005/08/31/writely-process-words-with-your-browser/• Satya Nadella on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/satyanadella/• Poor Charlie's Almanack: The Essential Wit and Wisdom of Charles T. Munger: https://press.stripe.com/poor-charlies-almanack• Calvinism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism• This Quote from Seth Godin Could Change How You Think About Pursuing Your Passion: https://friedchickenandsushi.com/blog/2021/7/5/this-quote-from-seth-godin-could-change-how-you-think-about-pursuing-your-passion• AI isn't a feature of your product: https://sundaylettersfromsam.substack.com/p/ai-isnt-a-feature-of-your-product• Introducing Gemini: our largest and most capable AI model: https://blog.google/technology/ai/google-gemini-ai/• Invisible Cities: https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Cities-Italo-Calvino/dp/0156453800• The Wasp Factory: https://www.amazon.com/WASP-FACTORY-NOVEL-Iain-Banks/dp/0684853159• Where Good Ideas Come From: The Natural History of Innovation: https://www.amazon.com/Where-Good-Ideas-Come-Innovation/dp/1594485380/• Slow Horses on Apple TV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/slow-horses/umc.cmc.2szz3fdt71tl1ulnbp8utgq5o• Monarch: Legacy of Monsters on Apple TV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/show/monarch-legacy-of-monsters/umc.cmc.62l8x0ixrhyq3yaqa5y8yo7ew?mttn3pid• Scavengers Reign on Max: https://www.max.com/shows/scavengers-reign/50c8ce6d-088c-42d9-9147-d1b19b1289d4• 2023 Mustang Mach-E: https://www.ford.com/suvs/mach-e/• Boccalone Salumeria (now closed) on X: https://twitter.com/boccalone—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

As Chair and CEO of AMD, Lisa Su leads the transformation of the strategy and product execution of one of the fastest growing semiconductor companies in the world. She's the recipient of numerous awards, and a recent appointee to the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology. In this episode, she discusses her upbringing as the daughter of a mathematician, her early interest in engineering and figuring out how things work, and why she thinks this is the most exciting time in hardware in recent decades.  Lisa Su | AMD   Kevin Scott   Behind the Tech with Kevin Scott   Discover and listen to other Microsoft podcasts.   

I co-hosted the Code Conference last week, and today's episode is one of my favorite conversations from the show: Microsoft CTO and EVP of AI Kevin Scott. If you caught Kevin on Decoder a few months ago, you know that he and I love talking about technology together. I really appreciate that he thinks about the relationship between technology and culture as much as we do at The Verge, and it was great to add the energy from the live Code audience to that dynamic. Kevin and I talked about how things are going with Bing and Microsoft's AI efforts, as well the company's relationship with Nvidia and whether it's planning to develop its own AI chips. I also asked Kevin some pretty philosophical questions about AI: Why would you write a song or a book when AI is out there making custom content for other people? Well, it's because Kevin thinks the AI is still “terrible” at it for now, as Kevin found out firsthand. But he also thinks that creating is just what people do, and AI will help more people become more creative. Links:  Microsoft CTO Kevin Scott thinks Sydney might make a comeback Hands-on with the new Bing: Microsoft's step beyond ChatGPT Microsoft Bing hits 100 million active users in bid to grab share from Google How Microsoft is trying to lessen Its addiction to OpenAI as AI costs soar AMD CEO Lisa Su on the AI revolution and competing with Nvidia Microsoft's tiny Phi-1 language model shows how important data quality is for AI training Microsoft says listing the Ottawa Food Bank as a tourist destination wasn't the result of ‘unsupervised AI' Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23664239 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today's episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. It was edited by Callie Wright.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Our Editorial Director is Brooke Minters and our Executive Producer is Eleanor Donovan. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Microsoft recently released a new version of Bing, its search engine that has long been kind of a punchline in the tech world.The company billed this Bing — which is powered by artificial intelligence software from OpenAI, the maker of the popular chatbot ChatGPT — as a reinvention of how billions of people search the internet.How does that claim hold up?Guest: Kevin Roose, a technology columnist for The New York Times and host of the Times podcast “Hard Fork.”Background reading: When Microsoft released the new Bing, it was billed as a landmark event and the company's “iPhone moment.”On the latest episode of “Hard Fork,” OpenAI's chief executive, Sam Altman, and Microsoft's chief technology officer, Kevin Scott, talk about an A.I.-powered Bing.For more information on today's episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.