Utah Avalanche Center Podcast

Dave Kelly's career on snow has included stints forecasting for a remote narrow-gauge, trans-national railroad on behalf of the Alaska DOT. He's also put in time at Turoa, one of the largest ski areas in New Zealand. And for 16 years, he worked as a ski patroller at Alta. He joined the Utah Avalanche Center in the 2022-23 season as a forecaster for the Salt Lake area. And he says it was the challenge of forecasting for bigger terrain that drew him to his new gig. Kelly joins us to talk about making the transition from an operational forecaster to a public one. And we also try to wrap our heads around the mysteries of radiation recrystallization.

More often than not, UAC forecaster Craig Gordon heads into the backcountry alone. He loves it. the solitude. Moving at his own pace. Spending as much time as he wants, as much time as it takes to understand the snowpack. He also understands the risks involved in touring alone. Craig joins us to talk through two of his most memorable solo backcountry tours, what he learned out there, and how he came back a changed man.

If there's one thing we can all agree on, it's snow. In his 20-plus years as a UAC forecaster for the Logan region, Toby Weed has seen snow's uniting effects. The Logan mountains boast an abundance of terrain, and for years, motorized and non-motorized users battled for the best slopes. But, Weed says, these days, things have changed. He joins us to talk about how, by focusing on the snow, and how to travel safely on it, we can all just get along.

There isn't any hard data on this, but it seems safe to say that Paige Pagnucco is one of very few people who are both full-time avalanche forecasters and MBAs. In fact, she may well be a group of one. Pagnucco, who forecasts for the Logan region, says that, while it may not seem like it at first, there's actually some significant overlap between business and forecasting. It comes down to messaging. Marketers and forecasters are both trying to figure out how you inspire certain behaviors by saying the right thing in the right way. Pagnucco joins us to explore the nuances of effective communication in a backcountry locale shared equally by motorized and non-motorized users.

The La Sal Mountains of southeastern Utah erupt out of the surrounding red rock desert. They sport steep slopes and big alpine lines that just beg to be skied. But this is expert terrain, says UAC forecaster Eric Trenbeath. It's highly avalanche prone, especially in the heart of winter, when the coverage is thin. Trenbeath is based in Moab, and he's been forecasting for the La Sals and nearby Abajos for nearly 15 years. All that time, and for years before he arrived, the shadow of the Gold Basin accident has hung over winter recreation down there. Trenbeath joins us to recount the tragic events of February 12, 1992, and to explain how the shockwave of an avalanche fatality can reverberate through a community for years.

Greg Gagne is a self-described conservative backcountry skier. His greatest satisfaction comes from putting in the work before entering avalanche terrain. He wants to know, as well as he possibly can, that the snow he's traveling on and around is stable. Greg joins us to explore how we grow our knowledge and experience in avalanche terrain, and we also talk about the ingredients of a healthy backcountry community.

UAC forecaster Nikki Champion knows first-hand the challenge of charting a career path in snow and avalanche science. She joins us to talk about how having role models and mentors that looked like her helped her find her way. We also talk about her recent ISSW paper evaluating the accuracy of the avalanche center's forecasts in the last few years.

This season, something a little different on the podcast. We want you to get to know the UAC forecasters, so, Drew is handing over the host's mic to producer Benjamin Bombard, and he'll be the one interviewing the crew. Drew's first at bat. He joins us to talk about how relaying valuable information through stories—rather than "just the facts, ma'am"—can help backcountry users get home safely.

Laura McGladrey, the founder of the groundbreaking non-profit Responders Alliance, works with front-line teams who witness and experience traumatic events—law enforcement, fire, EMS, Search and Rescue. She crafts language and creates tools to help them foster mental well being and resiliency. As Laura told us, you can spend all the time you want in classes, studying snow science and the human factors, you can spend all the time you want on the snow. But, for a lot of us, when your soul gets raked over the coals of trauma with loss so common to life in the mountains, there isn't much anybody can do to help you prepare for that. Laura's hoping to change that. Laura McGladrey is a force of nature.

Unlike a lot of snow and avalanche professionals, Jerry Roberts spent a fair amount of time hanging out around San Francisco, soaking up the Buddhist-infused literary scene of the '60s. He developed a deep affection for some very old school snow enthusiasts: Basho, Issa, Buson, and other 18th-century Japanese poets. He went on to a lengthy career forecasting for the Colorado Avalance Information Center, the Colorado Department of Transportation, even Quentin Tarantino. Along the way, he's written a number of his own wintry haiku. He joins us to share stories and wisdom from a lifetime in the snowy mountains, as well as a few poems.

At the end of nearly every episode of the podcast, Drew asks his guests, "To what do you attribute your longevity?" The answer he hears more than any other: Luck. When he got the question as a guest on the show last season, it got Chris Lundy thinking. He ended up making a presentation at the Bend SAW about what luck has to teach us about winter backcountry travel. Luck, he came he think, is just the other side of risk. They're opposite sides of the same coin. Lundy is an avalanche forecaster at the Sawtooth Avalanche Center and a avalanche specialist with the National Avalanche Center. He joins us to talk about luck versus chance versus uncertainty in avalanche terrain.

Where and when does a situation go bad? It's easy to think that an accident is the result of a single bad decision. But as Laura Maguire tells it, to understand an accident, which can be read as a failure of decision making, you really need to examine the systemic influences and the progression of choices that led up to that pivotal moment, because no decision is made in a vacuum. Maguire is an expert on human decision making. She joins us to talk about how the choices we make are often based on flawed thinking and dangerous biases. She also shares tools for hacking the decision making process to build in greater safety margins.

A lifetime ago, back in 1981, Brad Meiklejohn was ski-bumming and working at Alta when he witnessed a full-depth avalanche on High Rustler. It was mesmerizing, and it changed his path in life. He went on to study snow and avalanches on the East Coast, moved back out West and joined what was then known as the Utah Avalanche Forecast Center. His life, or his sense of its preciousness, changed again when he recovered the bodies of four friends buried in the Talking Mountain Cirque slide in the La Sal Mountains. These days, he works as a conservationist in Alaska, and he joins us to share his memories of the evolution of the UAC and his insights on life, death and the true value of outdoor recreation.

After five years of hosting the podcast, Drew Hardesty was curious about the mindset of the young guns just now cutting their teeth and testing themselves in very real, very consequential ski mountaineering terrain. Is the old guard wasting their time wagging their tongues and fingers about the dangers of backcountry travel while the youth just roll their eyes? That's where Zack Little comes in. Hired by Exum Mountain Guides as a teenager, Little has climbed and skied all over the Teton Range and even climbed the Grand Teton before high school. He joins us to talk about risk management, mentorship and laying the groundwork for a long life in the mountains.

In the winter of 2002-03, 14 people were killed in a pair of large avalanches in British Columbia. Those horrific tragedies spurred Canada's national parks agency to find ways to better insure public safety in the winter mountains. That's where Grant Statham comes in. An accomplished mountain guide and avalanche forecaster, Grant led the development of new safety systems and methods that have been implemented around the world, but curiously, not in the U.S. Grant joined us to talk how we think about avalanche hazard and how we communicate that risk to the public.

In the winter of 2002-03, 24 people were killed in a pair of large avalanches in British Columbia. Those horrific tragedies spurred Canada's national parks agency to find ways to better insure public safety in the winter mountains. That's where Grant Statham comes in. An accomplished mountain guide and avalanche forecaster, Grant led the development of new safety systems and methods that have been implemented around the world, but curiously, not in the U.S. Grant joined us to talk how we think about avalanche hazard and how we communicate that risk to the public.

It's been said that culture eats training for breakfast. In other words, you can take all the classes, read all the books, develop a fool-proof checklist and a dialed-in system, but when the snow falls, and when a social animal enters a high-risk environment, all that education and preparation can go right out the window. AMGA/IFMGA mountain guide Margaret Wheeler and Sawtooth Avalanche Center forecaster Chris Lundy join us for a conversation about the push and pull between cultural pressures, “selfish” rewards and the difficulty of actually understanding risk in the backcountry.

At first glance, financial advising and heli-skiing might not seem to have much if anything in common. But, think about it like this: Both take on clients who put a lot of money on the line, they put a lot of trust in their guides, and there are some heavy costs to getting it wrong. This time around we're joined by Ronna Cohen, a financial adviser and backcountry skier, and Jed Workman, an Alaskan heli-ski guide to talk about risk, reward and “accident cascades.”

In the spring of 1971, Don Bachman walked into the mining town of Silverton, Colorado, with a mission, not quite from God, but from the federal government: Study avalanches in the San Juan Mountains. The Bureau of Reclamation had recently established a cloud-seeding program in the region, and it was Bachman's job—as part of a veritable ‘Murderers Row' of snow science pioneers—to map and study the avalanche problem in the area and get a sense of how it would be impacted by atmospheric tampering. Bachman joins us to talk about the project and how conservative decision making in the backcountry can lead to a long life in the snowy mountains.

On the morning of February 6, two different groups totaing eight people went to ski in the Wilson Glade area of Alexander Basin in Millcreek Canyon. Both groups were ascending when the avalanche happened. Six people were caught and fully buried. Two of them survived. Four did not. In this episode, we break down what happened in this tragic accident. Drew is joined by UAC forecasters Nikki Champion and Trent Meisenheimer, and Alta Avalanche Office Director Dave Richards.

In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Scott McIntosh and Black Diamond's Andy Merriman to talk about, well first, good decision making, but then, in the event you get caught in an avalanche, how and why an airbag can potentially help you avoid the worst consequences. In particular, we're taking about BD's innovative JetForce Pro Avalanche Airbag. A study conducted by Dr. McIntosh et al. suggests the JetForce Pro pack could delay asphyxia, buying buried backcountry users valuable additional time for rescue.

Jeff Hambleton works with avalanche professionals from around the world and across disciplines to build avalanche education tools and train the next generation. In this episode: connecting to your audience; culture-shift after the Valentine’s Day slide of ‘99 at Mt Baker and the Danny Woods avalanche of 2008; effecting deeper change through social clubs; zone-based comms strategies; the value of simple rules; industry efforts to educate users; the future of motorized safety education.

Could our evolutionary history help explain why we enjoy putting our lives at risk?

Dr. Angela Dunn is the State Epidemiologist for the Utah Department of Health. In this episode: messaging the problem as you're learning about it; public safety and risk guidelines; cascading risks; marketing problems; the risk/reward balancing act; the single overriding communications objective; effecting behavior change; sticky messaging; culture eats strategy for breakfast; irreproducible accents.  

We're all in this together.

Sarah Carpenter is a co-owner of the American Avalanche Institute and a ski guide in the Tetons. In this episode: Giving backcountry users the keys to the castle; the evolution of avalanche education; snow science as equal parts science and voodoo magic; education vs air bag; checklists and systems for safety; sharing stories when you get it wrong; Don Carpenter and the qualities of good backcountry partners; and painting!

Blase Reardon has been a backcountry avalanche forecaster in Ketchum, Aspen, Glacier National Park, and is now the lead forecaster for the Flathead Avalanche Center in northern Montana. On tap this episode: forecasting in data-sparse regions; the mysteries of wet snow; Mr. Magoo's close calls, wicked learning environments & the illusion of expertise; the need for increased feedback; The Snowy Torrents; accident reports; the forecaster's role; and how best to progress your backcountry know-how.

How is that we learn good lessons that we mind for a while before drifting into failure once again? Hint: It has to do with heuristics.

In the avalanche world, UAC forecaster Trent Meisenheimer is at the forefront of storytelling and communication through the use of video. Trent uses high-def cameras, drones, and cutting-edge video software to communicate the visceral realities of a field day in avalanche terrain or a recent avalanche accident. He's also the wunderkind director of the Know Before You Go video, and "To Hell in a Heartbeat," among others. Trent joins us to talk about the art of storytelling through film.

Here's a question: What's the goal of forecasting? Economist Peter Donner and meteorologist Larry Dunn are both retired from their respective careers predicting the future, and they join Drew to share what they know about the intricacies of forecasting. It may sound dry, but the economic concepts of gain and loss, risk and reward shape good decision making in the backcountry. So, what's the goal of forecasting: accuracy or outcomes? How do you impact decision making--not to mention your reputation--with forecasts that overly cautious or not cautious enough? And how do you minimize risk when out on a tour?

In this podcast, we sit down with Doug Workman. An alpine guide, Doug is the real deal when it comes international ski guiding. He's been taking risks on the snow since he was a toddler learning to ski at Powder Ridge in Connecticut. Since then, he has found many other places to experiment with risk and risk management: Alaska, Pakistan, Iceland, China, Morocco, Svalbard, Antarctica, and right in his backyard, the Tetons. He makes his home in Jackson, Wyoming with his wife and two children where he works as a Mountain Guide and Avalanche Program Manager for Mammut North America.

What does a Eastern Utah rancher have in common with the risks of backcountry touring?

During the day, Jenna Malone is a physicians assistant, but she moonlights as a ski patroller at Alta, a Powderbird guide, and an instructor with AAI. At this fall's Utah Snow and Avalanche Workshop, she gave a compelling presentation on why avalanche decision making is more like poker than chess. The difference is in the levels of certainty and the information available to the players. Inspired by champion poker player Annie Duke's book Thinking in Bets, Jenna discusses how we make decisions in avalanche terrain, knowing that in this game, the stakes are our very lives.

What I want to know is this: Do we make a deal with Death when we play games with risk?

It's key to head into the early avalanche season with the proper mindset. In this podcast, we talk with UAC program director Bo Torrey. Bo talks about particular risks unique to the early season, tips and tricks for knocking the rust off your early season rescue skills, and charts out the path forward to avalanche education.

On Saturday, January 5, the danger rating in the Salt Lake area went Low. As you'd expect, people got out after it. By the end of the day there were eight skier-triggered avalanches, with four people caught and carried in separate events, and one visit to the ER. In this episode, we put one of those accidents under the microscope and examine how the forecast affects decision making. Our guests: UAC forecaster Greg Gargne, backcountry skiers Vlad Pascu and Jackie Long, Professor Russ Costa, and researcher Laura Maguire.

In this episode, we sit down with Lynne Wolfe. Lynne is a longtime mountain guide for both Exum and Jackson Hole Mountain Guides. She has taught innumerable avalanche courses for AAI, NOLS, and Yostmark and since 2005 she's been the editor of The Avalanche Review. Discussed in this episode: articles that have helped save lives; Ed LaChapelle's "ascending spiral"; debriefing with purpose; find good ski partners; being a good ski partner; talk about things that matter; Listen!

There's no telling when calamity or injury may strike, so what can you do to make sure you're prepared to act when they do?

All the way from Alaska, Eeva Latosuo and Aleph Johnston-Bloom join Drew to talk about their research on the mentoring network that undergirds so much of the avalanche and snow science community. Discussed in this episode: what a mentorship is; how to find a mentor; who's mentoring who; why mentoring; how information passes through the mentoring tree; the two-way street; aging out of mentorship; learning decision making skills, workplace safety and culture; staying curious; knowing when you've "made it."

The importance of being open about avalanche involvements and near misses, and how we can cultivate a culture of learning, absolute transparency and non-judgment, regardless of individual risk tolerances. Put yourself in other people's shoes. Practice humility. Destroy shame!

In this podcast, we sit down with none other than Ian McCammon. Ian holds a PhD in mechanical engineering with an emphasis on robotics and sensory development and his avalanche research has focused on safety education, fracture mechanics, and the human factor. Discussed in this episode: The Carruthers Incident (’95); ALPTRUTh; Lemons; FACETS; buried weak layers of assumptions; future lines of avalanche inquiry; Airbag vs avy education; The test of all knowledge is experiment; have your best day!

We can all agree that traveling in the backcountry is dangerous. Out in the mountains, we take risks and we push the odds. So, if the mountains are dangerous and risky, what does that make you?

Alex Hamlin is a partner at the marketing firm 7D8, and the former creative director at Black Diamond. Alex says that he works to create meaning, not content. He joins Drew to discuss: the power of stories; the critical importance of messaging; influencing behavior; honesty; the messenger's credibility; democratizing avalanche information; riding on red days; riding sans beacon; the stories we carry into the backcountry; communicating with a growing and changing population of backcountry users.

Experts aren't always right. Oftentimes, groups are smarter than even the smartest people in them. We all have a role to play in the backcountry and observations to share.

Jake Hutchinson was a long-time patroller and snow safety director at the Park City resort formerly known as Park West, Wolf Mountain, and The Canyons. He's also lead-avalanche instructor for the American Avalanche Institute. He joins Drew to talk about the risks and rewards of managing avalanche risk for the resort-skiing public. Discussed in this episode: mitigation practices; the evolution of ski patrol culture; the pressures of opening terrain; the story of a fatal in-bounds avalanche in 2007 and the ensuing legal battle; the lasting pain of bad consequences.

Special guest Tom Kimbrough, emeritus forecaster for the Utah Avalanche Center, recites "The Metamorphism Parable," penned, according to most accounts, by Bill Glude of Alaska Avalanche Specialists.

Dave Richards, director of snow safety at Alta Ski Resort, joins us to kick off another season of UAC Podcast interviews. This time, he and host Drew Hardesty discuss the stigma of trauma--"PTSD"--in the avalanche and mountain communities. Discussed in this episode: the message and the messenger; facing off with death; traumatic stress injuries; coping mechanisms; PTSD or PTSI?; EMDR; PTSM and avalanche rescue training; the emotional burdens of backcountry first response.

Something new to kick off Season 2 of the UAC Podcast. Throughout the season, host Drew Hardesty is delving into his deep catalog of UAC blog entries for stories and words of wisdom to keep in mind when you light out for the backcountry. For starters, a story about one backcountry skier forced to cope with the guilt of multiple avalanche involvements. 

In this podcast, we talk with long time Utah Avalanche Center pro observer Mark White. Mark grew up in the Wasatch Range and is one of the last true self-described "ski bums". We talked about a 2002 avalanche when Mark and his girlfriend Marla rescued and recovered a lone and fully buried skier in a debris pile near the Cardiac Ridge; the intricacies of route selection and terrain management; why Mark seldom digs snowpits; getting to know the snow throughout the season; and being Instagram famous for skiing sick lines.

Don Sharaf has the run the gauntlet of a 30-year career on snow. He's a co-owner of American Avalanche Institute and has taught avalanche and mountaineering courses for the past 25 years. He's also worked as a heli-ski guide and avalanche forecaster in Alaska for more than a decade. In other words, he's got enough mileage in the mountains to have learned a thing or two, including the profound value of humility when staring into the face of the dragon.

Retired UAC forecaster and Jenny Lake climbing ranger Tom Kimbrough has spent a lifetime in the mountains. He attributes his ability to survive his adventures to one thing: Luck. We discussed his thinking about a lifetime of risk exposure, what it's like now seeing his only son climbing and skiing at the highest levels, and what role Buddhism has played in his life as a climber, as a skier, and as a soon-to-be octogenarian, the role of mentorship in the world of forecasting and other professions and pursuits, and what has changed over the years in snow science.