Podcasts about nols

In this episode of the IC-DISC show, I sit down with Ronak Shah to discuss his transition from a corporate career at Intel to entering the scrap metal business, to founding a successful scrap metal business in New Caney, Texas. We talk about the motivation behind his career shift and the mentors who guided him along the way. Ronak opens up about the challenges he faced while transitioning from a large corporate environment to a smaller, more hands-on business. We also explore Ronak's decision to sell his business and the unexpected opportunities that arose from that choice. He reflects on the experiences gained throughout his career, emphasizing the importance of taking calculated risks and adapting to change. His story offers insights into the value of connecting past experiences to current ventures, even when the path isn't always straightforward. Finally, we discuss navigating today's fast-paced digital world and the importance of maintaining a low profile on social media. Ronak's journey highlights the balance between professional growth and personal fulfillment, making this episode a thoughtful exploration of entrepreneurship and resilience.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS I explore Ronak's remarkable transition from a corporate role at Intel to establishing a successful scrap industry business in New Caney, Texas, emphasizing his desire for more tangible work and the influence of key mentors. The episode delves into Ronak's career progression at Schnitzer Steel and Alter Trading, where he gained critical insights in non-ferrous recovery and learned the importance of agile, smaller teams in driving technological advancements. Through journaling and introspection, Ronak clarifies his professional desires, leading to the creation of Levitated Metal and reflecting on personal challenges, including his late wife's battle with cancer. We discuss the financial strategies Ronak utilized in his entrepreneurial ventures, such as leveraging IC-DISC tax advantages and aligning financial decisions with personal values. The conversation highlights Ronak's leadership insights, his decision to pursue a smaller business for personal fulfillment, and the impact of selling his business on both his professional and personal life. Ronak shares reflections on his entrepreneurial journey, touching on the lessons learned from his career, the importance of taking risks, and the role of hindsight in connecting the dots of his experiences. The episode concludes with a discussion on navigating the complexities of the modern digital landscape and the importance of maintaining a low profile in a rapidly changing social media environment.   Contact Details LinkedIn - Ronak Shah (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ronakshahpdx/) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Levitated Metals Ronak ShahAbout Ronak TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hi Ronak, how are you today? Roank: Good David, Nice to see you again. Dave: Likewise, and where are you calling into from? Where are you in the world at the moment? Roank: I'm at my factory in New Caney, Texas, just a little bit northeast of Houston Great. Dave: Now are you a native Houstonian. Roank: I'm not, so I moved out here in 2019 to build this factory and start this business. I think I've been to Houston once in the prior year to visit for the first time and never before, other than perhaps through the airport. So, I didn't know a lot about Houston. I'm not saying that I know a lot about Houston now, but it's been a great place to build a business. It's been a fine place for my kids to grow up. Dave: It's been good it's been a fine place for my kids to grow up. It's still good. Yeah, it's. Uh, it's kind of a, it's kind of a hidden gem in a lot of ways. Uh, you know houston is, it's got a lot going for it that if your only experience is just driving through town or going through the airport, you know, I mean you hear traffic, humidity, heat, urbanl and you're just kind of like, you know, yeah, it doesn't sound like my kind of place. Roank: Yeah, well, it would be a lot more believable if you did not have a Breckenridge background behind you. Dave: True, yeah, that is the Breckenridge background for sure. So where did you grow up then, if you didn't grow up in Houston? Roank: I grew up in upstate New York so my dad was one of the many immigrants that came over in the late 60s, early 70s. They were looking for people with medical training and background. So he came over from India, lived in New York. I was born in New York City but very soon after grew up in the middle of the Finger Lakes. We moved to Syracuse when I was in middle school and then I went to Boston for undergraduate and I bounced kind of between Boston and London and back to Boston, then to Portland, oregon, which is where I came into the scrap industry and lived for some time in St Louis. I lived there for about nine years and from St Louis to here. Dave: Okay. So what made you get into the scrap business if you didn't have a family history in it? Roank: Yeah, it was just very random, my interest in the scrap industry. I think, the truth of the answer is probably the more interesting one. So after mba I was working, I was an operations guy and I was working at intel corporation in portland, near portland oregon, and loved being in portland. It's a fine place to live. But intel was, I mean, a huge company, right, 80 000 people, and just like the process of making something that was about this big, the the size of the core diet, multiprocessor, microprocessor this wasn't sufficiently interesting to me and I was too far from it, as well as my chain organization. Yeah. It didn't feel tangible enough, and so that was one part of it. But then the other part of it as well was you know I was there as a worker bee, you know, in a reasonably senior job for someone of my age, but then, you know, in a reasonably senior job for someone of my age, but then you know intel was having difficulty. So they bring in bane and company to kind of work on strategy or whatever and so two of the guys that I went to school with that, I knew well, were like literally working literally seven layers in the organization above me, and I'm like what? and so I just hit that, I tapped out, I extracted, I was like this is just some horse crap. I, this isn't the place for me. I need to go somewhere where I'm, you know, in a, in a smaller pod, where I can really touch and feel a thing. And so I just started throwing resumes out and wound up at Schnitzer Steel. Now really, yeah, and oh really. Yeah, and it was great. It was a time of transition for Schnitzer. I don't know if it was a great transition time for Schnitzer. They were transitioning from an older style scrap company to a more professional slash corporate company of the style that it is today. So they had parts of the parts of their business were both things and for sure I liked the old thing a lot and just tons of fun being in places like Boston and Portland scrapyard when they were building big mega shredders and new factories and driving the continuous improvement process there and trying to get metrics around things. It was really a good time. I enjoyed a lot of it. I came to Alter Trading in 2010 and that was wonderful right, I owe so much of my career everything I learned everything to the team at Alter, to Jay Rabinovitz and Rob and Michael Goldstein. I learned a lot there. I did a lot of really fun stuff for them that helped transform the company into the highly successful privately owned scrap company it is today. Dave: Like on the technology side, correct yeah. Roank: So I built a few factories, non-ferrous recovery plants to process not steel non-ferrous portions of the shredder and extract more metals out of stuff that would otherwise have gone to the landfill. And it was you know, exciting to do that, and it wasn't just building the factories but really growing out the entirety of the division that became, you know, a kind of center of excellence around that function, and it's an area that you know Alter remains very strong in today. Dave: Okay, well, I am excited to get into the next part of your story. So you're living in St Louis, working at Alter, being involved in some cool stuff and forward thinking technology. So how did from there? How do you end up starting a company in New Caney, texas? Roank: Yeah, so it's no reason not to be as open and honest about it as possible. So Alter was amazing. For the first six or seven years I was there, the job was like a nine and a half out of 10. I remember I was in New York going to make this time up sometime in 2013 or something like that. I've been there for three years and the Powerball was like some huge number, like a billion dollars, and so me and some buddies that were in finance, we all bought Powerball tickets and we talked about what we would do if we won the money, and I remember I determined to say I don't know if I would necessarily quit my job, right, like I really love what I do. I still think about that today. Dave: Did any of them have the same thought? Roank: No, they thought I was just completely crazy and they weren't necessarily wrong. I think I think perhaps again I loved it, but the point of it is I really enjoyed it. It was fulfilling, I had impact, things were changing. All of that when I struggled is as that phase of what Alter needed ended and I needed to move and assist alter with other things, primarily helping them grow a tier of management that had come from the art management level into being the next business leaders of the company. Just, you know, it's kind of standard transition planning type stuff and succession planning. I struggled with doing that successfully, a role that perhaps would have been viable or successful or satisfactory for me to do had it occurred during a standard line management. You know, hierarchical management structure was hard for me to find value in fulfillment, in and I would say success in doing. Yeah, as a matrix manager, you know, as a, as a guide, as a internal consultant. I just didn't love it. I hate to put it that way. I just sure, sure and at the same time, alter was going through a certain amount of a a ton of growth, right, a lot of growth that I participated in through acquisition and internal growth as well disbanded organic growth. But it was going through a lot of growth and so the company that felt small and familial at 40 yards suddenly felt just large and 70 for me. Dave: Too much like it felt too much like Intel. Roank: Nowhere near that level. There's nothing like that. It remains a really effective, well-directed company today. But, it felt different for me and I also realized that I wasn't good at that bigger company stuff. You know, my way of thinking about things didn't scale successfully to that level. I would not be the right guy at that level and this is an unfortunate thing to say. But I chose to. I did not want to change. You know, I thought about so. My boss for many years there was Jay Rabinowitz, who was, until he retired recently, the CEO of Alter Trade. He was fascinating. His ability to grow into the mindset required, the management rank that he was in at the time, or growing into, was phenomenal. And so a guy that if you only knew him 30 years ago was a rough and tumble scrap guy was and you've seen him on podcasts and things like that. It became and presents fully as and fills the shoes of a methodical, thoughtful, mature and a CEO who does a great job of leading A 1,200, 1,500 person organization. You would have never thought that if you only knew him 25 years ago perhaps, but his ability to grow was really phenomenal. For, by choice or by capability or whatever it was, I did not have or want that and so I wanted something dramatically smaller. Dave: Okay. Roank: And so I spent a bunch of time not just thinking about it but literally journaling about it. Because when you just think about these type of problems in your mind like hey, what do I want to do professionally? Yeah, you can just ping pong in your brain. And what I found helped me through the process was writing it down. And if you remember, back in high school, your English teacher would tell you to you know write a draft of the story, or an outline, and then a draft and then the final essay. I mean, I don't know about you, but I would never do any of that crap. But I did this time and I found that, like the first draft was, you know, just vomit on a page of orally thought out concepts and beliefs. And so I wrote it again and it was clear. And I wrote it again, it was clear. It helped me really understand what I liked and didn't like and what I wanted and didn't want from the next phase. And it was a time when, you know, my kids were just about to graduate middle school. If I was ever going to leave St Louis, this was the time to do it. It was not going to be easy. It was not easy for them to leave St Louis, but that's when. That's how I made that choice. I was uncertain as to what I would do. Right, I was out there both looking at shredder yards to buy as well as businesses. To start, I looked at a wire chopping plant. I ultimately built a heavy media plant. I did look at and made successful offers on a couple of different shredders, but none of that actually panned out and in the end I raised a bunch of money, moved out to Houston, built this thing. Dave: That is a great story and your kids ended up adjusting okay to, because I believe you live in one of the really nice master plan communities around Houston. Roank: Yeah, and they've adjusted well. I think my son is glad that we moved down here. My daughter is a little bit on the fence, but she was younger when we moved. Both my wife my late wife and I in many ways would have probably preferred where we lived in. Dave: St Louis, it was a small town in Kirkwood. Roank: You're familiar with it, but here it's been great. The Woodlands is a, you know, magical little bubble of a place to live. It's got everything you need. It's 25 minutes to the factory. All of it has been, from that perspective, just fine. When my wife got cancer, we were right here at MD Anderson. You know a lot of that stuff worked out. Dave: That is great. So tell me what your business premise was for Levitated Metal. So maybe give just a little background. What does the company do? Roank: Sure, so we're a heavy media flotation platform. What we do is we buy a thing called Sorba and we make aluminum Twitch. But stepping back from that to people that don't know what any of those words mean, our suppliers are the largest scrap metal processors in the region. Right, the states who will buy something like an old 2008 ford 500 sedan that's at the end of its life, yeah, shred it into fist size and smaller pieces, extract all the steel out with a magnet and then extract all the other metals like aluminum from the engine, copper, brass zinc, die, cast through other technologies. That aluminum, copper, brass zinc all is mixed up together in little pieces in a giant pile and that product is called a made up word Zorba by the industry. They make lots of it inside of houston. probably 15 million pounds to 18 million pounds of it is made every month right I buy that it's useless the way it is because you can't melt it, because it's got too many different types of metals in it and it doesn't make a useful alloy. But if you can get the aluminum out, that aluminum is super valuable because that aluminum you know used to be the engine block of a old car. It's a pretty tight chemistry match to the alloy required for the engine block of a ford f-150 a 2005. So through a density flotation process using water and ferrosilicon, we can change the density of that water so we can actually float the aluminum out. Dave: Hence the name levitated. Roank: Yeah, it's not a novel technology. I buy the equipment from some dude in Italy. There are well over 100 of these kind of plants in the world, maybe a little less than a dozen when levitators started up in the united states and a very what it sounds like a simple process is a royal pain in the rear. That actually managed because it's a very analog system with all sorts of weird chemistry and other things involved and a challenging plant to rot. But you know, we do a pretty decent job of it. Dave: Now, why did you pick New Caney, texas? I've been to St Louis, in fact, I was just there last month. They appear to have plenty of land around that place, you know, especially across the river in uh, is that illinois? That's just east so why? Didn't you just buy some land and do it up there? Roank: so where these plants, where the competitive plants exist, are relatively close to where their consumers, the aluminum smelters that would buy the recycled aluminum, are, and that's generally already in that area. So there are plenty of plants in that area. Dave: Okay. Roank: Down here in Houston. What was the case when I chose to move down here it became very quickly not the case, because two other people also built plants was that there was a large market in Mexico that did not have access to this type of material because there were no media plants in Texas or along the Mexican border. And aluminum manufacture in Mexico was growing incredibly well, much like the rest of their economy, and so what I saw was a consumer need right mexican heavy media plants, a set of suppliers in the texas area that did not have a domestic buyer for their zorba and so good supplier footprint and, at the time, a relative lack of competition. But I didn't realize. So, like two months after the financial raise was done and everything like that was, there were in fact, two more plants that were in the process of being built. They both started, you know, six to 12 months after mine did not so far away. There's one up near dallas, there's one up in arkansas so it became a little bit more competitive, though in truth that has not really changed the calculus on anything in a great way. It hasn't really improved the deal too much. Dave: Okay, and it was you started with, just a green field, right? Roank: Yeah, it was some trees and dirt and 10 acres. It was some trees and dirt and 10 acres and I started with dirt work and stormwater and concrete and buildings and equipment and built the whole thing. Dave: What year did you? Roank: start COVID 2020. Oh, it was the heck of a time. Dave: That was the construction was during COVID yeah. And when did you open? Roank: Then we started processing. At the end of December we shipped our first 2020 and we started shipping material in full January 2021. Dave: Oh wow, that really was in the midst of COVID. It was Most of it wasn't? Roank: that big a deal. There was some delay in equipment delivery because it came from Italy, and so if anybody had a rougher time COVID wise, it was Italy. So it came from Italy, and so if anybody had a rougher time COVID-wise, it was Italy. So it came from Italy but that might have only cost us a couple months. What was really frustrating and challenging and ultimately we were able to get through it was simply the difficulty of bringing process experts from Europe to the US during the COVID timeline. You know, like I can't tell you how many voicemails I left at the US embassy in Milan to sorry the US consulate in Milan to try to, you know, accelerate the review of the visa for the texts to come in from Italy, but I can tell you how many times somebody probably listened to it with zero, so just a royal pain in the rear. You know, just because the pain in the rear to get that all done, it got done. But those were challenging times. Dave: So started January of 2021 and, uh, at the time, had you given any thought to how long you might want to, that you and your investor group might want to run the business or own the business? Did you have any thought when you started it about what I honestly thought? I? Roank: would run it and own it for like nearly 10, 15 years years and grow it over time and continue to be in the space, et cetera, et cetera. It was meant to be a longer term cashflow, not one necessarily built on an exit strategy of selling at some point in the future. That was the original intent. Dave: How did that-year plan end up working out for you? Roank: Well, it turned out to be much shorter than that. So, as it turned out, in 2023, we had an unsolicited offer from Murfrees Industries to purchase the business assets. Dave: Wow, just two years later. Roank: Yeah, two years of operation later. Yeah, and for a number of reasons, it was the right choice for me and my investors to do the sale and it's been absolutely phenomenally good, I think, for both sides. The transaction itself, you know, from my perspective, great because you know it was an accelerated exit, but an exit nevertheless, and it still gives me the opportunity to continue to do the same job in the same office every day that I really enjoy doing that. I find great fulfillment and mental stimulation and sense of purpose in without the undeniable and underestimated stress of being a business owner. Dave: Yeah. Roank: So that's been absolutely great. It occurred at a time when my wife was battling cancer and took a lot of stress off. Taking that business stress off the table Sure Just made it easier to get through that entire process. Yeah, and it's just been a good. I think it's been fun for everybody. You know Adam and Michael Mervis were the you know fourth generation. Perhaps Adam and Michael Mervis we're the fourth generation perhaps owners of Mervis Industries enjoy having the levitated team in their company. We enjoy being part of it. Both of us have to do better together. It's been really just great. Dave: That is awesome, because not all transactions work out that well. Roank: Yeah, I'm sure there's some number out there that I would have sold the company at, knowing full well that I would not have wanted to work there afterwards. I'm sure there is, but I'm glad I didn't have to. Dave: Because you were I'm guessing you were the. Were you a minority shareholder? Did your? I was a minority shareholder. Roank: Oh, you were the majority, okay. Dave: So it was ultimately your call Correct and your but the the deal clicked, checked all the boxes and and were your investors disappointed that they were going to lose their cash flowing business. Roank: No, they were very pleased with the cash they got all up front. They were fine. That is great. Coincidentally, I did this math when we were doing the sale. I think that the net result of it was the same. Dave: IRR or plus or minus one within 1% of the IRR. Roank: That was in the financial presentation for the business itself. Really, yeah, very unexpected. Yeah, again, nothing more than a coincidence yeah what do you, what do you enjoy most? enjoy the most about the business is building and growing things. What I have realized is that is not sufficient to be a great leader. Right, there's building and growing things. A great leader right, there's building and growing things. But there's also all the other things that a leader should gain and find value in a business that I'm just not personally built to enjoy nearly as much. Right, I enjoy growing the skillset for the people that work for me. I enjoy seeing them be successful, but I don't think I enjoy it as much as I really should, or that a leader really should. In many ways, I think what I've discovered is I almost enjoy being an individual contributor more than. I enjoy being a leader and in in many ways, that's why I enjoy being at such a small company. Right, yeah, here the leadership I have to do is very direct. It's in the office, with people that are no more than 15 feet away from me right now. It's a very old style of working. You, you know, I have one remote employee and thank God she is very self-directed and capable and intelligent and proactive about reaching out to me, because otherwise she would be really disappointed and I would suck at that job. And so when we talk about you know what do we like about the job? I enjoy the improving of things. I enjoy the new thing to be done. That is not as much of it's not that much of running a business as you would want it to be. Sure, it's not like about a small business, though are just the variety of stuff I get to do I wear slightly fewer hats now than I did before the acquisition, but I was the CFO. I was, unfortunately, the lead IT guy, even though portions of these functions were outsourced as well. I sold all the metals. Having never sold a pound of metal in my life prior to levitated metals, I sold all the amount and then I was the president. I was the lead on any plant improvement projects of great size that we had again support throughout the organization on all these little pieces. But that's a lot of little hats to wear okay, okay. That a bigger company would have a head underneath every one of those hats. Sure, so I enjoy being able to do the breadth of those activities. I think it's rare that people can do the breadth of those activities. You and I talk about ICDIS stuff all the time and I would wager at a level that maybe less than five company owners that you interact with are able to discuss the situation. Is that probably correct, or am I? I think it's probably less than three yeah. Dave: And I can't think of who the other two are, so you might be in a class of your own. Roank: Yeah, I enjoy that thing right when I think about things that I would have been in a different life. Perhaps tax accountant could be one of those. But man, this is a very different life than tax accountant. Dave: Yeah for sure I think you made the right call. Well, as we're kind of rounding the home stretch, I've just got a few more questions. One is when you were leaving Intel, if you had a time machine, or maybe right after you left Intel and you had a time machine that you could go back and have a conversation with the younger Ronak 20 years ago, what might you have told yourself? What advice might you have had? Roank: or wisdom that you might've wanted to share. I don't think I would've shared anything. Dave: No, wouldn't want to, but I would've wanted that. Roank: With the exception my wife's death, there is not a single thing that I would have changed that is a you're. Dave: I asked that question on my guest and you're probably the only one who's ever answered it that way. Roank: So I would say, yeah, what type of things do people say? Oh, you know the number one, because I'm not just saying that because I don't want to watch other podcasts, I just yeah, well, no, I can give give you the rundown. Dave: The most common answer is they wish they would have taken a risk sooner. They wish they would have started their company sooner. They wish they'd been more willing to take a chance. Now, granted, many of my guests are self-made first-generation entrepreneurs like you know, are, you know, self-made first generation entrepreneurs like you are meaning? You know they formed the company, but some of them may have worked at other companies. In hindsight they realize, oh, I should have done this five years sooner, you know it. Just, it would have only been better if I'd done it five years. That's kind of. The most common answer is just, they wish they'd played it less safe. You know, they wish they'd taken, you know, more risks in college. They wish they. That's kind of the most. But that one is consistent with what most people say near the end of their life they don't regret the things they did, they regret the things they didn't do. So that tends to be the answer. But that, to me, is a really good. That's a really good answer for somebody who's pretty content with where their life is. Roank: Yeah, other than you know your wife, obviously, and I see what everybody else describes, but I feel that everything I did, I was learning something that became foundationally valuable. Dave: Yeah. Roank: You know there was a period of time I got laid off from Schnitzer in early 2009. And I didn't start up at Alter Trading until, you know, about a year later. But I did some consulting in the middle for a wonderful company, Steel Pacific Recycling in Vancouver Island, Victoria, British Columbia, and I was there for three months and it was a magical time because we were there in the wintertime. The whole family moved up. My kids were very young. We had an apartment right in Victoria. I rode a bicycle to work to the scrapyard. But I did a bunch of really interesting financial cost accounting structure set up that helped them understand their business better and those were super useful skills when I had to do a chart of accounts setup for levitated metals. We were able to slice and dice our financials. You know extremely well and I don't know if I would have used an erp system nearly as well as I do here had I not had all those little formative experience things in the end I think for me at least. I don't feel like I had a lot of wasted years throughout any of that time I learned steve jobs, as you say. Dave: Steve jobs has the saying that you can only connect the dots when you look backwards, that at the time you can't. It's not like you had some grand plan, I'm guessing you know when you left intel. It just you know. Because steve talks about. He took this calligraphy class that he audited in college and, uh, you know, and that influenced everything at apple design and fonts and and other stuff that it only makes sense looking back so that's. Roank: That's interesting. Yeah, I can. I can see that, and it is hard to connect the dots until yeah until you look back so. Dave: So here's kind of a fun one. I think you've been a like me, you're a. Well, I consider myself a naturalized texan. My wife's a native texan, so, uh, you know, if you you know. So you're also a non-native texan, but I think you've been here long enough for this question. Tex-mex or barbecue. Roank: Barbecue makes me fall asleep. I'm not saying Tex-Mex, I've always loved Tex-Mex. So yeah, we've got some great barbecue. Actually, right near the plant Rusty Buckle is some great barbecue. Near my house is Corkscrew, which just got a Michelin star, which. Dave: Oh nice. Roank: Yeah, which I still struggle to understand how that all plays out. But Texas I guess you get a star. But I love me some Lupe Torquillo yeah yeah, I am with you. Dave: Well, is there anything I didn't ask you or we didn't talk about that you wish we had or we should have? Roank: No, but I'll do you a favor and I'll plug a little bit the IC disc. I know that's not the goal of this podcast, but it is why we know each other. Yeah, so I'll tell this story if I may. Yeah, absolutely, the IC disc and levitated metals. Yeah absolutely, yeah, absolutely, disc and levitated metals. So I called you on my birthday, three months before I, a little bit before I sold the company, and I had talked to you many times previous to that about setting up an icy disc. We, like many scrap companies, are well suited to the icyDIS because the profile of our sales are high margin exports and lower margin domestic sales, and the value of, as a pass-through entity, being able to translate ordinary income into dividend income, has great benefits to the investors of a company. I think there's probably some advantages, even if you're a C-corp, but you can detail that kind of At most. I think there's probably some advantages, even if you're a C-corp, but you can detail that kind of stuff out. I don't really know. Dave: Sure. What was? Roank: interesting when we talked about it is I was in the process of selling the company and when you sell a company that's done a bunch of bonus depreciation because it built a big factory, there's always depreciation recapture that shows up as ordinary income at the time of the sale and so whatever normal ordinary income there would have been that year it was going to be much, much higher because we would have clawed back a ton of depreciation. I put a recapture on depreciation. It's ordinary income. We, like many scrap companies again, have an IC discable kind of amount of headroom of income translation from ordinary income to dividend income Well in excess of the ordinary income we normally make in any particular year, and so, like most scrap companies, there should be no reason to pay ordinary income tax. Dave: Right. Roank: Again, most scrap companies that are Nazi corpse or whatever. But in the year of the sale, all that extra headroom suddenly became valuable because I was going to have this abnormal ordinary income from the depreciation recapture, and so what would have been X million dollars of ordinary income that would have turned to dividend income wound up being something like 2.5, x, yeah, all of which I was able to use because I had so much ordinary income, yeah. And your shareholders as well. Yes, absolutely yes, I and my shareholders. And that was phenomenal. And then on top of it, I think I got to. The ICDIS lets you defer some of that dividend income into the following year. So just sat there in our bank accounts making 5% or whatever we chose to do with that money for another year more than a year, excuse me. Just truly phenomenal. The impact of the ICDIS in my space. Not an easy thing to kind of think through. You and I were just spitballing stuff. We popped it up as an option. You had to go back and think about it, but it looks like it works. And I don't know if you have done it before. Dave: No, yeah, it was just such a unique fact and it was mostly because of how new the business was. Right, if the business had been open for 10 years, we would have started the IC desk probably in year four or five it was coming, and then you would have been using it and then you would have had that transaction, the depreciation recapture, and it would have given you a bigger benefit. It would have happened anyway. It was just your circumstances were so unique is how it all fell out, and I doubt we'll ever see that. That circumstances, because it's so rare to start a business and sell it so quickly, you know I think the takeaway of it is the one. Roank: So one of the takeaways I have from this is I should have started the ICS earlier, because of the bonus depreciation as a startup of the company and the complete depreciation of the entire factory. In the first year, I and investors had a ton of NOL and net operating losses that were just going to take a while to turn into a cumulative net gain and before that happened we sold the company. I was planning on doing an IC disc in 2024, I think was my expected timeline, which is when we would have clicked over to a game and then suddenly there would have been income that I wanted to translate over into dividend income. But I really should have just done it before into dividend income but I really should have just done it before. Dave: So the question I should have asked you was if you could go back in time two years and do anything different. Give any advice to yourself. What would it have been? I mean, it's a joke, right? You would have said start the ICDISC sooner. Roank: The real advice I would have given would have been understand how your NOLs work so that you can do a donor advice fund for the ordinary income you thought you were going to. But outside of that, in truth it's a minor esoteric thing that doesn't really matter. Dave: And so, since you brought it up I rarely talk about this. Since you brought it up, just a couple quick questions. One, because the cpa firm you use actually has some icdisk expertise and you know you could have used them. So do you recall what aspect of our I remind you. Roank: Yeah, because you're, I see this guy. Okay, and the thing that I was talking about felt esoteric enough that I didn't want to click just on a cheap bastard. I didn't want to click over, you know. CPA for billable hours while they tried to figure it out and roll me in a show or something like that. That's not how I want to play now, but the truth is I just needed something done quick and fast because every day that I waited to do the icy disc was another day of revenues that I couldn't utilize. And the second reason is, you know there's a time there's time it takes to create an icy disc and set it up and all that kind of stuff. You have that down to a science and had a method to kind of quickly get me rolling on it. While you and I both know you made a bunch of money on that transaction for a couple of years of work on it, it was completely worth it to me and a very satisfying business and personal relationship that tested both of our intellectual capabilities to kind of put together and work on. I enjoyed doing it right, like when we talk about what we enjoy and work. Dave: Yeah, that was a fun thing it was, yeah, no, it was for me too, because so yeah, so few of my clients, you know, know, have that much interest, you know, getting into the weeds there, and it caused me to think of some things I hadn't thought about in this. And again, since you brought it up, in the experience, you know, the team was the responsiveness Good, I mean, was the? Is the experience been positive? Oh yeah, it's been great, yeah what about coordinating with your CPA firm, because sometimes a CPA firm who has an ICDIS practice will sometimes say things like yeah, but it'll be more seamless if it's all under one umbrella right. Umbrella right, I mean, it's the. Did you get the sense that? That it created a lot of of extra work by the cpa firm, or that balls got dropped because you didn't have one entity doing it all? Roank: I don't think I got that sense, because the cpa firm is made up of multiple people too. That, oh, it's a good point, right? I mean, it's not like the ICDISC person is the CPA that you're working with, right? Dave: You know, I hadn't thought about that, and you're right, and there's some level of communication that is required regardless. Roank: Yeah, and that. Dave: IC-DISC practice, if I recall, for that particular firm. I think it's out of a different office. Roank: Anyway, I don't think, even if they were next to each other right which are of course not next to each other because they all work remote Even if they were next to each other, still two people having to talk, and so there's still coordination that has to happen, and you know what you're talking about. In the end. There is enough esoterica on optimizing the ICDISC usage, that especially trying to maximize the ICDISC capability that I don't think others really understand and not all of them need to understand it. But what I mean by that is for many companies they can just use the stupid simple approach for doing ICDISC and it'll still let them translate all the income they have right. In my particular case, it was important to look at the transaction by transaction optimization capability of the ICDISC in order to fully utilize and maximize the amount of income I could translate to dividend income. I use shared logic as my ERP system. There is literally an ICDISC button that creates the report that you care about. Dave: Right, and so that's one of the benefits of not to interrupt you, but people ask me because, like my, our IC disc business is almost impossible to sell. In fact your CPA firm even talked to me a few years ago about buying the ICDIS practice. The problem is we're not very sellable. We have a huge, we have a concentration risk because it's all tied to one part of the tax code. So they wanted to discount that, or they would have wanted if the conversation on that far. And the second problem is I'm a craftsman, I have the primary relationship with all of the clients. So they would have made me stay around for three or five years and I'm like you know and it would have been tied to some kind of an earn out because they're going to say well, what if the IC just goes away next year? You know we want you to basically keep some of that risk. So I don't know what got me off on this tangent of that risk. Roank: So I don't know what got me off on this tangent. I hear you, and I've thought about that question on your behalf as well, because from my perspective I think your job is kind of interesting and fun. Right, you get to visit a lot of different scrap yards, talk to a bunch of different scrap dudes about a thing you're very knowledgeable about that you know really could trans dramatically improve their financial position, and yet it's still a tough sell. Right, it should be like selling. You know it's not like selling ice cream to eskimos, and yet sometimes it probably feels that way. It is that way, yeah, yeah, and also the question of how to. Because you have a couple of people, I think that work for you, right, at least? Dave: one, yeah, yeah, there's a whole team, yeah. Roank: And so, yes, if IC-DISC went away, it would be I don't know what else you guys do, but pretty close to the end of the company and that's a rough gig. And you know, the low-grade communist in me certainly is shocked, shocked by all the awesome and incredible tax code optimization tools that exist for business owners tools that exist for business owners. Dave: I mean between the IC-DISC, new market tax credits opportunity zones right Bonus appreciation just it's Cost segregation, research-. Roank: Absolutely phenomenal, right, I am now a W2 employee like a putz, you know it's just phenomenal. But if that went away then, yeah, this does die. It's a really difficult thing to try to sell, right. It's the type of thing that, I don't know, if you can't keep some level of skin in the game or risk on it. It feels like the type of thing that if you have the right person in the organization that could be the face, should be kind of employee acquired in some capacity. Dave: Well, and that opportunity exists Some of my partners, I mean I have a standing offer to basically sell my part of the business and in many ways are you familiar with the inside. Roank: I am the. Dave: There's a deep dive of tax yeah, yeah, the structure for us I've already looked at it just doesn't. It doesn't really, it's not not the right fit, but yeah, I thought this thing. You know the funny thing about the disc it's been around since 1972, but it's been quote going, going away since 1973. So I've been doing this 20 years, and I thought I might have five years before this went away or there was a change. But the key, though, is that and that's true the concentration risk is there, but on the flip side, there's also a premium. You get a specialization premium that comes along with it. It's the reason if you look at a lawyer, the more specialized they are, the higher their billing rate, and so there's a premium that comes with that specialization. I know what I was going to say, and then I doubled down further where we have a concentration of risk within the scrap metal industry. But the benefit of that, though, is that when I show up to a scrap metal conference, I'm the only one there talking about IC disc, and I'm the one that well, a scrap guy introduced us. I mean, in fact, I won't mention him by name, but I call him my best unpaid salesman. He's referred as multiple clients. For a variety of reasons, they don't use us, but he's still a big fan of uh, of the work we do. So, yeah, and then the. Finally, there's this concept that has not caught on with a lot of americans. But there's this concept of saving Like you don't have to spend all your income in any given year, so there is this concept of you can make money, put it away and then, if the business goes away, you have this thing called like a nest egg, or you know. So People should think about it, yeah, but yeah my clients, my clients who I have a relationship with, that's. Oftentimes they'll ask me hey, dave, I'm a little worried about you, like as a friend, what happens if the IC disc goes away and I'm like I'll just spend more time there? That's what will happen. Roank: If it makes you feel better, I don't worry about you. I just think it's a very interesting company sale situation. I just think it's a very interesting company sale situation. Yeah, and you know, when you look at the environment today, you could be a tweet away from getting doged. Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah. So one of the you know, keep your head down and stay quiet, kind of things which appears to be the standard business approach to today's situation. Dave: It does seem to be. Roank: Well, hey Ronak. Dave: I can't believe how fast the time has floated. This has been a blast. I really appreciate it and I hope you have a great afternoon. Thank you, it's good to talk to you. Special Guest: Ronak Shah.

Brady Robinson is a lifelong climber, conservationist, and educator who currently serves as Director of Philanthropy for the Freyja Foundation. His career has spanned outdoor education, nonprofit leadership, and global conservation philanthropy, with past roles including Executive Director of both the Access Fund and the Conservation Alliance. These days, his work focuses on supporting high-impact land and water conservation efforts across South America, with a particular emphasis on Chilean Patagonia. Brady and I go way back—he was my NOLS instructor in the fall of 1999, on a course that involved big mountains, a few navigational hiccups, and some life-long leadership lessons. That semester planted the seeds for much of what I've done professionally and personally—including starting this podcast—and Brady's been a friend and mentor for going on 26 years. He was also one of the very first guests on this podcast in 2016, back when I had only one microphone and really didn't know how to work it. When Brady and I last spoke on the podcast, he was leading the Access Fund, and a lot has happened since then. In this conversation, we catch up on his career and dig into everything he's working on now. We start out discussing our NOLS experience, Brady's leadership in forming the Outdoor Alliance (alongside recent podcast guest Adam Cramer), his work on passing major climbing legislation, and the lessons he's learned about collaboration, trust, and long-game thinking. We spend the second half of the conversation digging into his current work in Patagonia's Cochamó Valley—a spectacular and at-risk landscape in southern Chile that Brady and his colleagues are working to protect through an ambitious multi-partner campaign. It's a story of nimble, grassroots conservation work, smart philanthropy, and what's possible when people align around a shared purpose. If you've enjoyed my conversations with Kris Tompkins or Adam Cramer, then I know you'll enjoy this one as well. Big thanks to Brady for his decades of support and mentorship—and another big thanks to you for listening. Enjoy! --- Brady Robinson Freyja Foundation Full episode notes and links: https://mountainandprairie.com/brady-robinson-2/ --- TOPICS DISCUSSED: 2:27 - Intro and how Ed and Brady met in 1999 9:06 - Access Fund 14:59 - Building a top-notch board 18:12 - Alignment 23:42 - Leaders Brady admires 30:07 - Getting to Patagonia 35:33 - Working with Kris Tompkins 40:57 - Main Freyja Foundation goals 43:48 - The Cochamó Valley 49:55 - Real estate rough 56:52 - The cool kids' table 1:00:41 - All about the one-on-one 1:02:52 - Book recs --- ABOUT MOUNTAIN & PRAIRIE: Mountain & Prairie - All Episodes Mountain & Prairie Shop Mountain & Prairie on Instagram Upcoming Events About Ed Roberson Support Mountain & Prairie Leave a Review on Apple Podcasts

Real estate just became one of the most tax-efficient investments again. In this episode, we break down how the permanent changes to depreciation rules, bonus depreciation, and NOLs have unlocked major cash flow advantages for real estate investors. We cover cost segregation, real estate professional status, and how to pair these with 2025 tax laws to stack your savings. Whether you own rental properties or are planning to expand, this episode gives you the playbook for smarter tax moves in real estate.   Next Steps:

(Lander, WY) – The KOVE 1330 AM / 107.7 FM Today in the 10 interview series Coffee Time continued today with host Vince Tropea, who recently spoke with Sandy Colhoun, the President at the National Outdoor Leadership Society (NOLS). Colhoun stopped by to chat about the NOLS 60th Anniversary celebrations taking place in Lander, as well as NOLS' vision for the next 60 years. You can hear the full interview with Colhoun below, and check out the information provided by NOLS about all of the celebration events/registration details at the bottom of the post! Be sure to tune in to Today in the 10 and Coffee Time interviews every morning from 7:00 to 9:00 AM on KOVE 1330 AM / 107.7 FM, or stream it live right here. The National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS) is celebrating 60 years of inspiring leadership education, culminating in a community gathering in Lander, Wyoming, September 25-27, 2025. The event is an opportunity for the NOLS community to gather, honor the past, celebrate the present, and inspire the future. Hundreds of NOLS alumni, guests, and notable outdoor industry leaders are expected to attend the weekend-long gathering. Registration is now open to sign up for events and activities. The last day to register is Friday, September 5, 2025. Most events are free and may have limited capacity. Each event will indicate the registration guidelines for participation.Some highlights include a meetup at the Pushroot Brewery on Thursday, September 25, starting at 4:00 pm, with a custom NOLS Legacy Brew on tap.The following day, on Friday, September 26, the community is invited to hear astronaut, physicist, and former NASA Chief Scientist Dr. John Grunsfeld share his insights about how wilderness leadership training has influenced his life in his talk, “From the Lumberyard to Space: A NOLS/NASA Story” at 10:15 am at the Lander Community and Convention Center.Later that day, on Friday, September 26, from 3:00 pm - 7:00 pm, the community is invited to the City Park in Lander for Trail Mix, an outdoor marketplace featuring gear brands, artists, demos, and interactive booths. A BBQ and live music by Lander-based bluegrass musicians Low Water String Band will keep the vibes rolling from 5:00 pm to 7:00 pm.On Saturday, September 27, Alex Honnold will have a conversation with Peter Metcalf, founder and CEO of Black Diamond Equipment, at the Lander Community Center and Convention Center at 10:00 am. Honnold will share stories of mentorship, the surprising lessons of solo and collaborative expeditions, decision-making in the mountains, and how becoming a father has reshaped his perspective on life, leadership, and legacy.Also on Saturday, the Film Fest at the Grand Theater will have screenings of outdoor and adventure films starting at 10:00 am and running through 4:00 pm. The film lineup and screening times will be released shortly and available HERE.To round out the weekend, there will be the NOLS dinner and awards, followed by a concert given by Chadwick Stokes & The Pintos at the Lander Community Center and Convention Center.Please check the event webpage for the full details, schedule, and registration.

(Lander, WY) – The KOVE 1330 AM / 107.7 FM Today in the 10 interview series Coffee Time continued today with host Vince Tropea, who recently spoke with Cody Kaemmerlan, the new VP of Advancement at the National Outdoor Leadership Society (NOLS), who also serves on the board of directors for the American Alpine Club. Kaemmerlan stopped by to discuss all things NOLS, including the recent $3.1 million gift from longtime supporter and friend to NOLS, JK Nicholas, his background on how he formed a love for the outdoors, and how he ended up in the NOLS family. Check out the full Coffee Time interview with Kaemmerlan below for a fun chat! Be sure to tune in to Today in the 10 and Coffee Time interviews every morning from 7:00 to 9:00 AM on KOVE 1330 AM / 107.7 FM, or stream it live right here.

In this episode Will speaks with Katie Baum Mettenbrink, Director of Risk Management at the National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS), about the intersection of risk, resilience, and mental health in outdoor education. With over two decades at NOLS, Katie shares her journey from a college backpacking trip to becoming a leader in wilderness risk management. She discusses the importance of balancing challenge and safety in the field, her role in shaping the upcoming Wilderness Risk Management Conference in Portland, Maine, and how outdoor experiences can build clarity, connection, and emotional well-being for participants of all ages. Katie also reflects on how mental clarity and singular purpose emerge in the face of environmental adversity, such as navigating snowstorms with young children in the backcountry. The conversation touches on pressing issues in the field—from the impact of climate change on expedition planning to the challenge of adapting to a generation raised with instant access to information. For professionals concerned about safety in the outdoors, and for families considering the value of immersive wilderness programs, this episode offers critical insights into how risk can be thoughtfully managed to foster growth and healing. Natioinal Outdoor Leadership School Website:  https://www.nols.edu/en/ Wilderness Risk Management Conference Website: https://www.nols.edu/en/risk-services/wilderness-risk-management-conference/ Stories from the Field is supported by WMAI.org We are now on Youtube so check us out there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkYx-8fTbZg&list=PL-RD5KVsxmkwqzjuhyghJGve6Uv7ikkGl

David Cheezem did a 90-day NOLS (National Outdoor Leadership School) trip 45 years ago. Jaxson Lee just came back from a 60-day NOLS trip. They discuss the impact of their experiences with Mike on Valley Edition.

Veðrið, djóralæknin Gestir: Hanus Kjølbro Annika Nørspang Nolsøe

Looking back and looking forward: David Cheezem and Jaxson Lee reflect on experiences with two different NOLs outdoor experiences, David in 1980 in Kenya, Jaxson in 2025 in Patagonia.

Cambium is on a mission to build better supply chains for the timber industry. Through their operating system, Traece, they make it easy to source sustainable and local Carbon Smart Wood™ from fallen trees at large scales. They've won awards, including Fast Company's “Most Innovative” and TIME's Best Invention 2024.Before Cambium, Ben worked at Sandia National Laboratories and Global Hydrologic Solutions. He is also a Forbes 30 under 30 and NOLS-certified Wilderness First Responder.--✅ Here are 6 topics we covered in the podcast:1. Founder OriginsBen traces his passion for forestry to his childhood in rural New Mexico. He combined that love with advanced studies at Yale, shaping Cambium's mission.2. Massive Market OpportunityGlobal wood demand will triple by 2050, yet half of U.S. needs could come from salvaged timber. Cambium's platform unlocks this potential through streamlined sourcing.3. How Cambium WorksBy connecting tree-care services, sawmills, and manufacturers, they reduce waste and shorten procurement cycles. Major buyers include furniture, millwork, and mass timber firms.4. Leadership and CultureBen's leadership style reflects lessons from backcountry guiding, where proactive teamwork can prevent crises. He also applies extreme ownership principles, ensuring accountability for missed goals.5. Scaling with IntentionCambium is expanding its team across forestry, tech, and sales, seeking low-ego, high-impact talent. Ben emphasizes adaptability and shared values over industry-specific experience.6. Staying GroundedBen stays focused with daily checklists, intentional routines, and physical play like soccer. He recommends The Hard Thing About Hard Things and Deep Survival for fellow builders.--

As we wrap up 2024, Motivational Mondays celebrates an incredible year of inspiring conversations and transformative insights. This special year-end episode highlights five remarkable guests who graced the podcast with their wisdom and unique perspectives: Janice Robinson, Sandy Colhoun, Nacone Martin, Willie Pietersen, and Siobhan McHale. Each of these individuals shared invaluable lessons on creativity, resilience, leadership, and personal growth, leaving listeners with practical takeaways to fuel their journeys into the new year.LEARN MORE:> > Janice Robinson (https://www.nsls.org/blog/love-life-laughter)> > Sandy Colhoun (https://www.nsls.org/blog/leadership-through-fearless-learning)> > Nacone Martin (https://www.nsls.org/blog/from-bullied-to-bodybuilding-champ)> > Willie Pietersen (https://www.nsls.org/blog/leading-with-a-conscience)> > Siobhan McHale (https://www.nsls.org/blog/leadership-and-the-hive-effect)NSLS MEMBERS ONLY:> > Listen to the bonus episode to learn the importance of mentor/mentee relationships and why NOLS's programs are perfect for young adults (https://members.nsls.org/audio/2024-wrap-up)Mentioned in this episode:NSLS members!

Introducing "Safety First with Danger Tate" — Episode 1: Ashley Wise on Outdoor Leadership, NOLS, and Packrafting Adventures Welcome to the very first episode of Safety First with Danger Tate! This brand-new series kicks off with an incredible guest — Ashley(Ash) Wise, the director for NOLS Alaska and a seasoned adventurer with over two decades of experience in outdoor leadership. In this episode, you'll follow Ashley's journey from college outdoor programs in Arizona to guiding whitewater expeditions with NOLS around the world. His experience as a whitewater instructor, leader, and educator provides a fascinating look into the evolution of outdoor education. What you'll learn in this episode: Ashley's path to becoming a NOLS instructor — From student trips on the Salt River to teaching multi-week backcountry courses. The art of leadership in the wild — How NOLS empowers students to plan, lead, and learn in real-world conditions. Packrafting 101 — Discover how NOLS is introducing game-changing packrafting courses in 2025 (and why packrafts are a total upgrade from canoes!). Wildlife safety tips — Hear stories from the field about bear encounters in Alaska and what it takes to stay calm under pressure. With personal anecdotes, life lessons, and a behind-the-scenes look at NOLS, this episode is a must-listen for adventurers, guides, and anyone dreaming of a backcountry adventure. Hit play, grab a cup of coffee, and get ready to be inspired by stories of leadership, teamwork, and growth in the great outdoors. Adventure is calling — are you ready to answer? THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS GoRafting River Hardware SUPPORT GEAR GARAGE: Become a member Consider supporting the show on Patreon Buy some Gear Garage merch Follow us on Instagram

Access to the outdoors is a basic human need—from the granite under our feet during adventures or simply a breath of fresh air. Yet, that access isn't equal. In the U.S., more than one in three people lack access to a park within a 10-minute walk of home, disproportionately affecting Black and Brown communities. The outdoor and climbing industries face similar challenges. Lack of diversity in leadership, limited funding, and gate-kept information make the climb steeper for many. However, climbers of color have risen to become some of the sport's most accomplished athletes, demonstrating the potential that comes with overcoming barriers. By expanding diversity in leadership, increasing funding, and fostering open access to knowledge, we can create a more inclusive and level playing field for all climbers. Join Trust for Public Land for an inspiring conversation with prominent Asian American climbers Cody Kaemmerlen, Kathy Karlo, and Nina Williams. Moderated by Trust for Public Land's Northwest Director, Mitsu Iwasaki, panelists will delve into their personal journeys, discuss obstacles to equitable access to the sport, and explore the benefits of creating a more inclusive environment for everyone. Cody Kaemmerlen is a passionate rock climber and advocate for inclusivity in the climbing community as well as the outdoors. He is the Director of Advancement Operations for NOLS and serves on the Board of Directors for the American Alpine Club. Based in Wyoming, Cody leads efforts to create welcoming and equitable spaces in the outdoors by addressing barriers to diversity and inclusion. With personal experiences as a South Korean adoptee raised in rural Oregon, he brings a unique perspective to his work. Cody's commitment to equity is also highlighted in the film “Dear Mother,” where he delves into his identity and the challenges faced by people of color in the climbing world. Kathy Karlo is a storyteller at heart who has dedicated herself to reshaping the narrative around climbing and the outdoors. As the creator and host of the For the Love of Climbing podcast, she dives into the emotional and vulnerable sides of the sport, while also amplifying the voices of those often left out of the conversation. Kathy also leads as Executive Director of No Man's Land Film Festival, an all-women adventure film festival that challenges traditional narratives by showcasing female-driven stories. Through her work, Kathy strives to create a more inclusive outdoor space where everyone can feel empowered to share their authentic experiences. Nina Williams is a professional rock climber recognized for her groundbreaking achievements in highball bouldering and trad climbing. Based in Boulder, Colorado, Nina has pushed the limits of what is possible, becoming the first woman to climb iconic routes like “Too Big to Flail” and “Ambrosia” in Bishop, California. Her climbing career is marked by a deep mental discipline, and she is passionate about access and mentorship in the climbing world. Beyond her personal accomplishments, Nina is committed to fostering inclusivity in outdoor spaces, working with organizations like Flash Foxy, Color the Crag, and the Women's Climbing Symposium to ensure everyone can connect with nature. As Board President of the American Alpine Club and a Certified Professional Coach, Nina's work reflects her belief in the power of the outdoors to inspire and uplift all communities. Mitsu Iwasaki, our moderator for the evening, is the Associate Vice President and Northwest Director of Trust for Public Land. Born in Japan, Iwasaki's family immigrated to Seattle, WA soon after he turned six years old. Growing up in the relative comfort of the suburbs, his parents felt it would be best to ‘build his character' by sending him to work on a commercial fishing boat throughout his teenage summers in Chignik, Alaska. Those experiences sparked an enduring love for wild places, inspiring a life-long journey of adventure and exploration of both natural landscapes and his capacity as a person. He has been climbing, skiing, and running across our beloved northwest mountains and around the world for over three decades. Presented by Town Hall Seattle and Trust for Public Land.

Veðrið, nýggjur jólasangur, rúsevnir í drykkir, djóralæknin Gestir: Hanus Kjølbro Maikin Isholm Højgaard Mariann Jacobsen Annika Nørspang Nolsøe

Sandy Colhoun, National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS) President, joins Maddie Pellman, host of Who Runs This Park, Park Enthusiasts. NOLS, built on the vision that wilderness is the great equalizer, stands as THE leader in outdoor education—a nonprofit Maddie has been captivated by since taking her first Wilderness First Aid Course in 2022, followed by an unforgettable backcountry skiing adventure in Japan on a NOLS alumni course. You can tell in the interview, Maddie is beyond excited to be talking with Sandy.  In this episode, Sandy shares his own life adventures, from biking through the Himalayas to ski patrolling in Park City, while diving deeper into the mission and vision of NOLS. He reflects on the idea that life happens at the crux of opportunity and preparation, emphasizing the power of taking leaps of faith and embracing learning. Sandy also touches on the unique role NOLS plays in training programs for both the Navy and astronauts, highlights the concept of Expedition Behavior, and discusses how national parks and public lands have shaped NOLS and his own life. This is not an episode you'll want to miss! You can follow Who Runs This Park on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook or YouTube, can email us at info@whorunsthispark.com or check us out online at whorunsthispark.com.  Sign up for the Who Runs This Park's newsletter at linktr.ee/whorunsthispark.  Who Runs This Park is produced by Maddie Pellman with music by Danielle Bees.

Evnini í sendingini hesaferð eru Vinus og Vimús, veðrið, harumenn, kapping og býarskái Gestir eru Páll Danielsen, Turid Laksá, Jákup Petersen, Hans Petur Bærentsen Nolsøe, Mass Hoydal og Eyðvør Berg

Lou Dawson is one of the most accomplished ski mountaineers in the US, but he's so much more than that. While Lou is known for being the first to climb and ski Colorado's 54 fourteen-thousand-foot peaks, his career included a rock-climbing era, an ice-climbing era, and his mountaineering and ski mountaineering ear. He's a living legend and is considered to be one of the godfathers of backcountry skiing in the US. On the podcast, we talk about growing up in Texas, moving to Aspen, the counterculture movement, the draft, the mountains, his must-read book, Avalanche Dreams, and much more. Another legendary mountaineer, Andrew McLean, asks the Inappropriate Questions. Lou Dawson Show Notes: 4:00:  Avalanche, growing up in Texas, his dad, Ashcrofters Mountaineering School, NOLS, and challenging home life 21:00:  Thermic Heated Socks and Dissent Labs socks (non- heated) Stanley:  The brand that invented the category! Only the best for Powell Movement listeners.  Check out Stanley1913.com  Best Day Brewing:  All of the flavor of your favorite IPA or Kolsch, without the alcohol, the calories and sugar. 24:00:  The draft, Harvey Carter, suffering, and Denali,  45:00:   Elan Skis:  Over 75 years of innovation that makes you better. Outdoor Research: The best outerwear on the planet is developed and tested in the Pacific Northwest 45:00:  Ski Mountaineering, best trips, Outward Bounds, climbing 30 peaks in 30 days, climbing and skiing Colorado's 14ers, and Blizzard of Aahhs 72:00:  Inappropriate Questions with Andrew McLean

Show Notes:Paloma's Links:Paloma Farkas (website)Paloma's instagramEpisode Intro:Dear guests of the Female Guides Requested Podcast, happy Wednesday. This is your host Ting Ting from Las Vegas. Our guest today is Paloma Farkas from Bishop California. Paloma is only 25 years old, but she already has 6 years of guiding under her belt. Right after she graduated from high school, her parents gifted her a NOLS backcountry rock course at the Wind River Range. Paloma then listened to the callings of mountains and followed her heart towards alpine rock climbing and started her guiding career.Paloma grew up in Seattle, Washington where she discovered her passion for the mountains through family backpacking and climbing trips in the Cascades. In 2017 she traveled to South America and fell in love with the granite towers of Patagonia. Since then she has split her time between Patagonia, Chile and the US. Paloma spends as much time as possible climbing and some of her favorite areas are Patagonia, the Peruvian Andes, the Cascades, Indian Creek, the Wind River Range, and the High Sierras. Her favorite type of climbing is big wall alpine climbing, but Paloma also enjoys single pitch trad and sport climbing, bouldering and ice climbing. When Paloma isn't pursuing her own climbing goals, she finds fulfillment in sharing her passion with others and teaching the skills necessary to be self-sufficient in the mountains. She is currently an AMGA Rock Guide, Apprentice Alpine Guide, Wilderness First Responder, AIARE Avalanche Pro 1, and Leave No Trace Trainer.I admire Paloma's attitude of going for it when she knows what she wants. She works hard and remains optimistic. We had so much laughter during our conversation and I know you'll laugh with us too when you listen to this episode. Things We Talked about:Cross Country Running was already thereFamily's influence – climbing wall at home, backpacking and climbing trips in the CascadesNOLS backcountry rock course changed Paloma's life pathThe year of 2016Wanting to head out of the country, and wanting to go to the mountainsA powerful conversation between father and daughterWhy Patagonia?From dirtbagging to hiking guide to weekend warrior2020 now what?After AMGA Rock Guide Course, Paloma started technical rock guiding in BishopComparing the work environment between the US and Chile from a female guide's perspectivePaloma's vision and business ideas – train climbers in the Sierras and bring them to PatagoniaDoes Bishop has enough work year round?How to make Bishop guiding career sustainable?Favorite type of guiding?The so-called “Gap Courses”

In the opening episode of Season 21, host Will White delves into the significant transformations occurring within the wilderness therapy field for adolescents and young adults, paralleling them with the impacts of climate change on our environment. He reflects on the "Great Collapse" between 2007 and 2010, when the number of wilderness therapy programs dramatically decreased due to economic pressures from the Great Recession. Drawing striking parallels to recent events, Will discusses how the closure of seven wilderness therapy programs in the last two years mirrors that earlier contraction, signaling a new period of challenge and change in the field. He also explores how these challenges echo those faced by longstanding outdoor organizations like the Boy Scouts of America, NOLS, and Outward Bound, highlighting how declining enrollments, controversies and technology have impacted the broader outdoor experiential field. Despite challenges like increased operational risks, changing market demands, and heightened public scrutiny, some programs have demonstrated remarkable resilience and continue to adapt to the evolving landscape. Will announces that this season will feature interviews with leaders from enduring programs to explore how they've navigated these challenges and what they envision for the future of outdoor behavioral healthcare. Emphasizing the importance of stepping away from screens and engaging with the real world, he encourages listeners to embrace the outdoors as a powerful platform for mental health treatment. The episode sets the stage for a season focused on adaptation, resilience, and the ongoing impact of wilderness therapy on young lives.

Veðrið, KFUK, Varandi heimur, djóralæknin Gestir: Turid Lakså Tórfríð Bjarkhamar Ragnar Mouritsen Høgni Rasmussen Annika Nørspang Nolsøe

We'd love to hear from you about this episode.A foundational concept that touches all areas of life is leadership. Throughout our journey, we will lead and follow countless times, impacting and being impacted by those around us. Leadership is often defined by what leaders do, their capabilities and skills, how they treat those who follow them or the outcomes they create.  While leadership may have nuanced differences across different fields, the foundational components of successfully leading remain constant. Successful leaders understand what motivates their people, navigate adverse times successfully, are consistent and authentic, and know how to give their best to the team and mission.Everyone in an organization contributes to leadership. But how can we learn to be better leaders in the world's first (and greatest) classroom…the natural world? Welcome to Episode Forty-Eight of The Nature of Wellness Podcast.  In this episode, we sat down with Sandy Colhoun, President of the National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS), a nonprofit global wilderness school that seeks to help individuals become better leaders.  The mission of NOLS is to “be the leading source and teacher of wilderness skills and leadership that serve people and the environment.” Join us as we speak to Sandy about his journey with the natural world, beginning in Baltimore and leading him to incredible destinations such as Tibet and Nepal. Sandy shares the fantastic work of NOLS, what it is like working with populations like Naval Academy Midshipmen and NASA Astronauts, and the powerful lessons that time in wilderness settings can teach.  Sandy discusses the importance of impacting small communities, the guiding principles and values behind NOLS, and how aligning group and personal goals is critical for successful leadership.  We were happy to follow this world-class conversation and leader… Please subscribe, rate, and leave a review anywhere you listen to this podcast. We appreciate you all. Be Well-MarkNOLS Website: https://www.nols.edu/en/* The unbelievable Shawn Bell produces the Nature of Wellness Podcast, making us sound good.** The NOW theme song was penned, performed, produced, and provided by the dynamic duo of Phil and Niall Monahan.   *** This show wouldn't exist without our amazing guests and all of you who listen. Please like, subscribe, follow, and review to help us get these important messages out to more folks who can benefit from them. Thank you all.Wild Times: Wildlife EducationDiscover thrilling wildlife encounters, mysterious animals tales, and daring expeditions!Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify

Joy Seward is an instructor at the National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS) in Boulder, Wyoming, where she specializes in horsepacking expeditions that teach wilderness survival skills. With a background in environmental studies and art and communication, Joy combines her passion for the outdoors with her expertise in education. She grew up on a family farm in North Carolina, gaining early experience in equestrian training and outdoor adventures. ⁣ In addition to her role at NOLS, Joy co-founded RecPak, a brand offering high-nutrition, lightweight snacks for endurance athletes. Launched nearly two years ago, RecPak addresses the need for better on-the-go nutrition in remote areas. Joy's work with RekPak complements her educational efforts, supporting athletes while expanding the brand's reach. ⁣ Joy's current focus includes leading a 16-day expedition in the Absaroka Range and attending events like the Lander Rock Climbing Festival to promote RecPak. She aims to grow RecPak into a sustainable brand and continue her career in outdoor education, including pursuing avalanche instructor certification. Balancing her professional ambitions with the challenges of remote work, Joy values risk management, community, humor, and perseverance in both her expeditions and entrepreneurial endeavors.

Guests: Robin Shostack, Security Program Manager, Google Jibran Ilyas, Managing Director Incident Response, Mandiant, Google Cloud Topics: You talk about “teamwork under adverse conditions” to describe expedition behavior (EB). Could you tell us what it means? You have been involved in response to many high profile incidents, one of the ones we can talk about publicly is one of the biggest healthcare breaches at this time. Could you share how Expedition Behavior played a role in our response?   Apart from during incident response which is almost definitionally an adverse condition, how else can security teams apply this knowledge? If teams are going to embrace an expeditionary behavior mindset, how do they learn it? It's probably not feasible to ship every SOC team member off to the Okavango Delta for a NOLS course. Short of that, how do we foster EB in a new team? How do we create it in an existing team or an under-performing team?   Resources: EP174 How to Measure and Improve Your Cloud Incident Response Readiness: A New Framework EP103 Security Incident Response and Public Cloud - Exploring with Mandiant EP98 How to Cloud IR or Why Attackers Become Cloud Native Faster? “Take a few of these: Cybersecurity lessons for 21st century healthcare professionals” blog Getting More by Stuart Diamond book Who Moved My Cheese by Spencer Johnson  book

Rajesh Lama is the founder of LamaWalks Trekking & Expedition. With over a decade of experience as a trek/outdoor leader and instructor in Nepal, Rajesh is also a NOLS certified wilderness first responder. Recently, he made headlines by setting a world record for walking from Kathmandu to Everest. In this episode, he shares his incredible journey, the challenges he faced, and the inspiration behind his record-breaking trek.

Sandy Colhoun is the President of the National Outdoor Leadership School, also known as NOLS. - Founded in 1965 by legendary mountaineer Paul Petzolt, NOLS is widely considered to be the world's premier wilderness school, and its mission is “to be the leading source and teacher of wilderness skills and leadership that serve people and the environment.” NOLS operates in many of the world's wildest outdoor classrooms, and it provides the highest quality instruction in many outdoor skills, including wilderness travel, mountaineering, rock climbing, sea kayaking, and more. But perhaps most importantly, through these outdoor adventures, NOLS students learn the foundational and all-important life skills of leadership, teamwork, humility, and responsibility. - Sandy was named the seventh President of NOLS in October of 2023, after serving as the interim President and, before that, as a member of the NOLS Board of Trustees. Prior to his work with NOLS, he had spent much of his career in the worlds of education and journalism, most notably leading a $750 million fundraising campaign at Colby College in Maine. Sandy is also a proud graduate of a NOLS Wind River Mountaineering course, and he's no stranger to hardcore outdoor adventures– he worked as a ski patroller in Park City, climbed in Alaska, Nepal, and Bolivia, and cycled up and over the Himalayas from Tibet to Nepal. As you'll hear in our conversation, he's focused, driven, and lots of fun, and he's s fully committed to leading NOLS into the future. - I'm a proud graduate of a 1999 semester-long NOLS course, which was hands-down one of the most formative and valuable experiences of my entire life. Yes, I learned plenty of outdoor skills that have served me well for nearly 25 years now, but the most important lessons were those that taught me the value of good exhibition behavior, being comfortable in uncomfortable situations, and keeping a positive attitude when life gets difficult. If not for that semester, I highly doubt I would've ever moved out west, worked in conservation, or started this podcast. So, I'm obviously a superfan of all things NOLS. - I was so excited to chat with Sandy, and we covered a lot in our hour-long conversation. We discussed the history of NOLS, what separates NOLS from other wilderness schools, risk management, exhibition behavior, expanding one's comfort zone, a description of the ideal NOLS student, Sandy's own leadership style, his vision for the future of NOLS, how he will measure success, leaders that Sandy admires, favorite books, and much more. Be sure to check out the episode notes for links to everything we discuss. - A huge thank you to Sandy for being so generous with his time and for everything he and the entire team at NOLS do to make the world a better place. Thanks for listening, and I hope you enjoy! --- NOLS Sandy Calhoun Ed's Freeflow Institute Workshop Full episode notes and links: https://mountainandprairie.com/sandy-colhoun/ --- TOPICS DISCUSSED: 4:00 - A brief history of NOLS 8:15 - What sets NOLS apart from other outdoor schools 10:30 - Discussing NOLS' partnerships 13:00 - How NOLS manages risk 16:30 - The talent of NOLS instructors 19:00 - What “expedition behavior” is 22:15 - How NOLS recruits students in a world that prioritizes job opportunities and career advancement 24:45 - How NOLS expands one's comfort zone 28:45 - The ideal NOLS student 30:15 - Determining the next chapter of NOLS in the early 2020s 33:30 - Sandy's career pre-NOLS 37:00 - Sandy's leadership style 42:30 - How Sandy got his mind around the task of taking the helm at NOLS 46:00 - Measuring future success at NOLS 49:00 - Leaders that Sandy admires 52:15 - Sandy's book recommendations 58:15 - Sandy's parting words of wisdom, and how you can support NOLS   --- ABOUT MOUNTAIN & PRAIRIE: Mountain & Prairie - All Episodes Mountain & Prairie Shop Mountain & Prairie on Instagram Upcoming Events About Ed Roberson Support Mountain & Prairie Leave a Review on Apple Podcasts

Jake Wallace was born and raised in the corn fields of Iowa where he learned how to fix fences, build barns and generally throw hay bales larger than cows with ease.  Life has been nothing but an adventure for Jake. In addition to working for NOLS Wilderness Medicine, he works as a professional mountain guide which takes him around the world to beautiful mountains and rivers alongside amazing people. Facebook​ ​Twitter​ ​Instagram​ Love the show? Subscribe, ​rate, review, and share!​ Sign up for my Newsletter ​HERE​ I'd love to hear your feedback about the show! You can contact me here: ​rick@theoutdoorbizpodcast.com Show Notes 00:00 Experiencing outdoor adventures sparked lifelong enthusiasm. 03:59 Jake enjoys diverse pursuits and follows people they admire in various fields, such as outdoor education, leadership, and medicine. They believe in imparting wisdom and following the example of respected individuals. 07:04 Trauma where a dear friend was killed spurred career change and led to helping others outdoors. 11:13 Appreciating diverse cultures during travel. 15:52 Swift water rescue training in California, accident injures teammate. 18:13 Took first responder course, met friends, and kept up with instructors. 21:23 Wilderness medicine course with three instructors, 30 students, hands-on training, high exam pass rate. 25:32 It's important for groups and guides to push comfort levels for growth. 26:16 Learning to manage risk as I age, considering family and recovery ability and the importance of open communication in decision-making. 29:43 The future looks promising with growing outdoor interest, but time and money constraints may affect long outdoor courses like NOLS. 34:47 Advice for aspiring outdoor industry professionals: Respect the community, follow your passion, and learn from experienced mentors. 37:16 Favorite gear under $100: I've got this really old stuff sack that I think it was for a pair of skins from 15, 20, 20 years ago. That stuff sack always has all of my favorite snacks in it, so I think my favorite thing is my snack bag. 38:15 Do you have a favorite book or two? Yeah, I read a lot. One of my favorite authors is Bill Bryson and a walk in the woods. Another I can't think of right now. I think it's called the Emerald Mile. 40:42 Thanks for listening to the Outdoor Biz Podcast with Rick Saez. Visit our website for more info and subscribe. Thanks for listening and don't forget to subscribe and spread the word! Learn More You can follow up with Jake at jake_wallace@nols.edu and NOLS on their website. Next Steps If you enjoy interviews devoted to the outdoor industry, find us online at ricksaez.com/listen. We love likes and comments, and if you know someone who is also an outdoor enthusiast, go ahead and share our site with them, too. And be sure to Subscribe to our newsletter Keywords #NOLS, #wilderness EMT training, #Lander, Wyoming, #risk mitigation, #outdoor activities, #Pale Blue Earth batteries, #outdoor safety, #Devil's Lake, #mountain river guide, #outdoor education, #outdoor gear, #risk management, #environmental stewardship, #Wilderness Medicine, #swift water rescue, #instructor training. Podcast produced using Descript, CastMagic Podcast hosted by Libsyn use code 'outdoorbizpod' for 20% OFF Show Notes powered by Castmagic Website powered by Wordpress Note: As an Affiliate of Amazon and others, I earn from qualifying purchases.

In this episode of the Soul Summit podcast, host Courtney Prete interviews Joy Seward, an outdoor enthusiast and advocate for fostering independence and empowering poeple in the outdoors.  Their conversation covers a range of topics, including Joy's passion for the outdoors, the challenges women face in the adventure space, risk mitigation and outdoor education, a few common mistakes in backpacking, and tips for staying warm and comfortable in the outdoors. As a certified NOLS instructor, Joy shares some of her wild experiences and adventures and the importance of education and mentorship in outdoor pursuits. In this episode, Joy shares her thoughts and insights on solo adventures, the importance of community, and what balance (or lack of) looks like in her busy life. Joy is full of bubbly positivity coupled with hard earned wisdom and perspective. She discusses the pain of losing her father while she was in college as well as the rewards of guiding and teaching others in the outdoors and the impact it can have on personal growth.  Joy expands on her entrepreneurial journey with RecPak and the importance of pursuing passions and purpose. She emphasizes the power of education and encourages listeners to take small steps towards their outdoor goals–no matter what that looks like! Keep up with us online! @heroutdoorjourney_ @soulsummitpod_ @joyseward @recpakco NOLS Nonprofit  Or tune into our YouTube Channel to take the journey together!  Find the full line up of 2024 Her Outdoor Journey events and retreats here! Today's episode was brought to you by:  MAVEN: If you're ready for premium optics without the premium price tag, check out Maven Optics. This consumer direct company is turning heads and winning awards for their top quality products. From binoculars, rangefinders, rifle scopes and spotting scopes- they've got it all.  Head on over to www.mavenbuilt.com and use promo code SOULSUMMIT-GIFT  for your next purchase to get a discount just for listening to this podcast!    BAKCOU: Elevate your life and your hunts with one of Bakcou's top of the line E-bikes! Whether you use them on your hunting and fishing adventures, for a hand on the farm, or to commute around your local area, Bakcou bikes are not only reliable, but they add a whole lot of fun to life as well! Find their full line of products at www.bakcou.com. Use the code SSP200 to save at checkout.   HOYT: There are some awesome bows on the market, but if you ask me, I'd say Hoyt has some of the best bows around. Built tough to withstand the wear and tear of hard hunts, this bow ensures reliability in your shot so you can focus on the hunt. Not to mention, the dead in the hand feeling that keeps you coming back for more! Head over to www.hoyt.com and check out their new custom bow builder!     SAWYER: If you're serious about the outdoors, be sure to see what Sawyer has to offer. From water filtration, to sunscreen and insect repellent, Sawyer has you covered. Their commitment to giving back, helping fight global issues, and bringing clean water to more people around the world truly sets them apart from the rest. Head over to www.sawyer.com to see all they have going on!     ONX:  When it comes to hunting and exploring the great outdoors, there are endless tools, gizmos and gear, but something I never leave home without is my onXMaps. Knowing I have access to land owner information, property lines, topographic layers, historical and wildlife data are all reasons this app takes hunters to the next level and leaves you feeling confident in the woods. Grab your free trial today at www.onXmaps.com.  Did you enjoy this episode? We'd love to hear from you! Please take a minute to leave a review on the show. Tell us what you think OR what you want to hear next! We appreciate this community of outdoor junkies and we're looking forward to what the future holds! Now go get after it! Tag us in your adventures #SoulSummitPodcast #HerOutdoorJourney  TAGS: Outdoors, Adventure, Women, Empowerment, Backpacking, Education, Mentorship, Community, Entrepreneurship, Climbing, Mountaineering, Expedition

Our guest this week is the creator of Ninety-Pound Rucksack, a podcast that examines the stories that made the 10th Mountain Division famous as well as those history has forgotten. Equal parts real-time research, intimate conversation and revelatory journalism, Ninety-Pound Rucksack explores not only the conventional wisdom about the 10th, but the transformative power of the mountains to forge a collective identity among the mountain troops—and to ignite a passion for the outdoors that reshaped American society in the process. The story of the 10th is famous for good reason. Not only did its insertion into the war help end Germany's occupation of Italy; post-war, its veterans founded and developed ski areas across America, started companies like NOLS and Nike and launched the fields of avalanche science and wilderness rescue. The founder and board chair of The Teton Climbers' Coalition, Christian Beckwith has spent more than thirty years immersed in the world of alpinism. In 1996, he became the youngest person to edit the world's premier mountaineering journal, The American Alpine Journal. From there he went on to lead numerous projects: Alpinist Magazine, Alpinist Film Festival, Teton Boulder Project Outerlocal, the Town Pump bouldering series, SHIFT (a 501c3 non-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of nature as a social determinant of health), and AlpinFilm. He has made expeditions to Kyrgyzstan, Alaska, Peru and Tibet, skied the Grand Teton half a dozen times, and established numerous first ascents and descents around the world. In 2023, he was inducted into the 10th Mountain Division's Warrior Hall of Fame for services rendered to the Division which is what we'll be discussing in this conversation. He lives in Jackson, Wyoming, with his wife and daughter. If the discussions in this episode interest you, go listen to Ninety Pound Rucksack wherever you get your podcasts!

Gestir hesaferð eru Turið Poulsen, Djóni Nolsøe Joensen, Katrin Dagbjartsdóttir, Finja Daegling, Diana Reynstind

Listen every weekday for a local newscast featuring town, county, state and regional headlines. It's the daily dose of news you need on Wyoming, Idaho and the Mountain West — all in four minutes or less. 

In today's episode of Backpacker Radio presented by The Trek, we are chatting all things Colorado Trail. Rachel, who filled in for Zach, and Chaunce are joined by David Fanning, who has seven complete hikes of the Colorado Trail, which is tied for the record we think. Topics covered today include the pros and cons of hiking the CT both east and westbound, the best weather windows, transportation to the trail, recommended gear, information about the campsites, water availability, the best towns, resupply strategy, preparation strategies, how to navigate the trail, wildlife, comparing the Collegiate East and West, and more. We wrap the show with the official details of our upcoming LIVE podcast in Denver, how to cook corn, and the triple crown of bread. Gossamer Gear: Use code “DINGLEBERRY” for 20% off packs at gossamergear.com.  Danner: Use code “TREK15” for 15% off Mountain 600 boots at danner.com. LMNT: Get a free sample pack with any order at drinklmnt.com/trek. Shady Rays: Use code “TREK20” for $20 off polarized sunglasses at shadyrays.com. [divider] Panel with David Fanning David's Website Time stamps & Questions 00:06:14 - Reminders: Come attend BPR live in Denver on April 23! Apply to be a Trek blogger or Ambassador and suggest a potential Trail Days guest for BPR! 00:07:37 - Introducing the Colorado Trail panel 00:08:54 - Introducing David Fanning 00:12:04 - How did you go from the PCT to CT? 00:14:20 - When was the first year you hiked the Colorado Trail? 00:15:52 - Do you think having that conversation with the doctor turned out to be a blessing? 00:20:25 - Colorado Trail basics 00:22:40 - Hiking season and weather 00:30:10 - What crazy weather have you seen across 7 hikes? 00:31:45 - Discussion about keeping gear dry and rain gear 00:36:42 - What experience have you had with snow on the trail? 00:39:14 - Have you had any sketchy experiences with lightning? (NOLS lightning resources) 00:41:56 - Discussion about dead tree fall 00:43:15 - Hiking NOBO or SOBO 00:49:08 - Trail termini 00:51:00 - Discussion about taking the train from Grand Junction to Denver 00:52:12 - Resupplies and towns 00:53:18 - Discussion about hitching 00:59:50 - Trail towns: Bailey, Conifer, Jefferson, and Fairplay (See The Colorado Trail Guide: Resupply and Towns on the Colorado Trail) 01:04:04 - Trail towns: Breckenridge, Frisco, and Copper 01:05:45 - Sending resupply boxes 01:06:53 - Trail towns: Leadville 01:09:54 - Trail towns: Twin Lakes 01:10:35 - Collegiate East vs West 01:17:05 - Trail towns: Buena Vista and Salida 01:19:05 - The Cochetopa section 01:24:10 - Trail towns: Gunnison, Lake City 01:31:56 - Discussion about sheepdogs 01:34:06 - Trail towns: Silverton and the scenic train 01:38:40 - Discussion about the section between Lake City and Silverton 01:40:20 - Discussion about wildlife encounters 01:48:00 - Food storage on the CT 01:50:04 - Shelter considerations on the CT 01:54:15 - Discussion about campsites and Chaunce's scary story 01:58:45 - Navigation on the CT 02:00:48 - Dogs and bikes on the CT (Backpacker Radio #214 | Tisha McCombs, Executive Director at the Colorado Trail Foundation) 02:03:30 - What has changed the most over your many hikes? 02:07:00 - Section hiking versus thru-hiking 02:14:02 - What's your elevator pitch for the Colorado Trail? 02:17:04 - Physical preparation on the CT 02:21:25 - Discussion about food and appetite 02:21:55 - Tell us about Voices of the Colorado Trail Segments Trek Propaganda Tisha McCombs is Leaving the Colorado Trail Foundation Best Trekking Poles for Backpacking in 2024 by Katie Kommer QOTD: How do you cook corn? Triple Crown of bread Plug Me: Old Man Murph's Coffee Roasters Mail Bag 5 Star Review [divider] Check out our sound guy @my_boy_pauly/. Leave us a voicemail! Subscribe to this podcast on iTunes (and please leave us a review)!  Find us on Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Play. Support us on Patreon to get bonus content. Advertise on Backpacker Radio Follow The Trek, Chaunce, Badger, and Trail Correspondents on Instagram. Follow Backpacker Radio, The Trek and Chaunce on YouTube. Follow Backpacker Radio on Tik Tok.  Our theme song is Walking Slow by Animal Years. A super big thank you to our Chuck Norris Award winner(s) from Patreon: Alex & Misty with Navigators Crafting, Andrew, Austen McDaniel, Austin Ford, Brad & Blair (Thirteen Adventures), Brent Stenberg, Bryan Alsop, Christopher Marshburn, Coach from Marion Outdoors, Dayne, Derek Koch, Eric Casper, Erik Hofmann, Greg Knight, Greg McDaniel may he bring honor to his name, Hailey Buckingham, Jason “Snail” Snailer barely know her, Liz Seger, Patrick Cianciolo, SPAM, Timothy Hahn, and Tracy “Trigger” Fawns. A big thank you to our Cinnamon Connection Champions from Patreon: 12 Trees Farms, David, Dcnerdlet, Emily Galusha, Jeanie, Jeanne Latshaw, Jeff LaFranier, Joann Menzer, Katharine Rudzitis, Keith Dobie Jr, merle Watkins, Peter, and Ruth S.

Time and time again, we've seen that spending time in nature has profound effects on our physical and mental wellbeing, but did you know that the outdoors are also uniquely suited for imparting leadership skills? This week, we're chatting with Sandy Colhoun, the President of NOLS (National Outdoor Leadership School), a global nonprofit wilderness school that is dedicated to stewardship & sustainability, diversity in the outdoors, education, leadership, safety, and community. Their programs range from expeditions for young students and semester-away programs to executive leadership and even NASA training courses. In this conversation, we chat with Sandy about his own formative experience in a NOLS program, discovering yourself in the wild, and we define a core tenet of the NOLS philosophy, expedition behavior.Show NotesNOLSAbout Sandy ColhounNOLS Stewardship & SustainabilityNOLS Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion NOLS Programs & CoursesResourcesFollow NOLS on InstagramChattahoochee Hills Charter SchoolWalk Your Way Calm: A Guided Journal for Uncluttering Your Mind with Every Step by Jennifer WalshKey Words: NOLS, Outdoor Education, Leadership, Outdoor Adventure, Biophilia, Biophilic Design, Nature Based Solutions, Nature Based Learning, Wilderness, Wilderness Medicine

Gestir í sendingini eru Turið Laksá, Pál V. Joensen, Lív Birgirsdóttir Johansen, Annika Nørspang Nolsøe

In a recent episode of the Hustle Inspires Hustle podcast, host Alex Quin and guest Sandy Colhoun, President of the National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS), explore the transformative power of wilderness education. NOLS, established in 1965, combines outdoor expeditions and wilderness medicine to teach leadership and survival skills. Colhoun discusses the school's philosophy that facing real-world challenges in nature cultivates strong leaders. The conversation covers NOLS's wide range of courses for all ages, its efforts to stay innovative, and the customized programs for groups, including astronauts and executives. Highlighting personal growth and the impact of outdoor experiences, this episode underscores the relevance of wilderness education in developing adaptable, resilient leaders for today's complex world.[00:00:03] Hussle Inspires Hussle podcast: Entrepreneurship, self development, leadership.[00:03:13] Leading NOLS, a dream come true.[00:08:50] Teamwork essential in overcoming challenges together.[00:14:21] Outdoor adventures, no technology, risk management.[00:19:37] Check out Maggie Rogers, rising artist.[00:22:11] Inspiring courses shape future success.[00:26:05] Expeditions shift perspective, build trust, leadership.[00:29:12] Wilderness medicine courses shake up students.[00:34:54] Leading nonprofit challenges, communication, and adventure.[00:39:50] Knowl student heads into wilderness, doubts, growth.Wisdom NuggetsUnlocking Leadership Through Wilderness: Wilderness education, as practiced by NOLS, teaches that real-world challenges in nature are unparalleled in developing leadership skills. Facing unpredictable elements and making critical decisions in the wild prepares individuals for complex problem-solving and leadership in any context.Principle of Expedition Behavior: Emphasizing dignity, respect, and shared leadership, the principle of Expedition Behavior is foundational to success in both wilderness expeditions and in life. These values foster trust, collaboration, and effective communication, essential traits for any leader.The Power of Starting: The act of beginning something, despite uncertainties or doubts, is often the most challenging yet rewarding part of any journey. Just as pedaling out of Lhasa, Tibet, towards Kathmandu felt insurmountable, taking that first step is crucial for achieving goals, signaling the start of a transformative adventure.Diverse Learning for Diverse Needs: NOLS's wide range of courses, from youth programs to executive training, demonstrates that leadership and survival skills can be taught across ages and professions. Tailored experiences ensure that everyone, regardless of their background, can find a course that meets their developmental needs.Power Quotes"It's incredible to hear how nature and business intersect, teaching leadership skills from astronauts to Google executives." - Alex Quin "How sustainable is it to be locked away, staring at a screen in another world that's not real?" - Alex Quin"A life lived outside is a life well lived. At NOLS, we take you to remote and austere environments to teach leadership skills." - Sandy Colhoun"We don't call the leaders of NOLS trips guides; they are instructors. We're a school at heart, teaching students how to survive and thrive in the wilderness." - Sandy ColhounResources MentionedHustle Inspires HustleNOLS Website: Maggie Rogers and Her Song "Alaska"Meet Our GuestSandy's LinkedInSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

As President of NOLS, Sandy draws from his own time as a student when he creates programs for today's students. Just as he did, students can learn wilderness skills and leadership skills with a deep understanding of traveling in remote environments. Not only do they learn how to set up a tent, but also how to read a map and compass and find their course where there are no trails, even when it's cold, wet, rainy, or very dry conditions. Attaining those competencies elevates the leader in everyone. As president of NOLS Sandy's ultimate mission is to be the leading source and teacher of wilderness skills which in the process creates strong leaders who make a difference in the lives of those they encounter — in any environment.Learning to navigate unknown spaces elevates the leader in everyone. As president of NOLS Sandy's ultimate mission is to be the leading source and teacher of wilderness skills which in the process creates strong leaders who can make a difference in the lives they encounter — in any environment.In this week's episode, you will learn how Sandy thrived in the Wind River Mountains of Wyoming, how understanding nature inspires more gratitude, and the leadership skills learned from wilderness travel.LEARN MORE:>>https://nols.edu/enNSLS MEMBERS ONLY:>>Listen to the bonus episode to learn about the exciting partnerships of NOLS and what Sandy hopes for the school's future. (https://thens.ls/4bykQzC)Mentioned in this episode:Get 20% Off at the NSLS ShopUse code MONDAYS for 20% your entire purchase at shop.nsls.orgNSLS Shop

Rick Rochelle is a mountaineer, wilderness medic, Director of NOLS and President of All American Leadership. We discuss wrestling as a youth, his journey into climbing, some of his career medical saves, his powerful mental health journey, leadership in the fire service, the importance of training, wildland firefighting and so much more.

Originally aired May 7, 2018On today's show, Amber Casali joins Curt to fill us in on everything we didn't realize we did not know about fire lookout towers. Born and raised in Seattle, Amber Casali considers herself a stereotypical Pacific Northwesterner, someone who loves the outdoors and relishes the natural beauty of our region. She has summited Mount Adams, Mount Baker, and Mount Rainier; section hiked most of Washington's PCT, including six days solo in Glacier Peak Wilderness; successfully taken the Washington Alpine Club's Basic Climbing and Mountaineering course; and she has recently become certified in Wilderness First Aid, through NOLS. Stay tuned. This show has some really interesting information you don't want to miss!Book: "Hiking Washington Fire Lookouts"www.ambercasali.comwww.mountaineers.org/books/books/hiking-washingtons-fire-lookoutsOur Sponsors:* Check out Green Chef and use my code asp250 for a great deal: https://www.greenchef.com/asp250* Check out Oris Watches: https://www.oris.ch* Check out Roark and use my code ASP15 for a great deal: https://roark.com/* Check out Shopify and use my code asp for a great deal: https://www.shopify.com/aspSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/adventure-sports-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

(00:00- 10:42) Throw out any personal storylines, Andrew says it doesn't matter HOW the Eagles win, if they beat the Chiefs they solidify themselves as the #1 team in the NFL.   (11:45- 32:09)Andrew acknowledges that statement goes both ways, if the Chiefs win they then become the best team in  the NFL.  Aaron Nola is back for 7 more years, no matter how you feel about him, the Phillies have solidified a top rotation for the next few years. (36:02-54:45) Andrew calls out Sixers fans who wanted to trade Embiid, then Ray opens an eventful vault.  He wishes happy birthday to a Phillies legend and throws it back to 2009 to re-live the last time the Eagles beat the Chiefs. (57:10- 1:17:30) Do you have any personal feelings towards the Chiefs matchup? Andrew says it doesn't compare to divisional rivalries, this is a huge game strictly because the Eagles need to keep winning and cement themselves as #1.  The fellas break down the Nola deal and acknowledge the headaches that come with Nols, but ultimately for the price and his ceiling the Phillies did a good job re-signing him. (1:21:07- 1:39:02) Andrew opens the phone lines to gauge excitement for this matchup and if fans hold grudges against Andy Reid.  (1:39:34- 2:00:34) As children we all had 2nd favorite teams, Andrew's just so happened to be the Chiefs…  Ray and Andrew look around the league to recap a lackluster week 11. (2:02:14-2:36:40)  After going around the league, Andrew contextualizes the NFC competition.  The Lions record-wise might wind up being the Eagles' biggest competition, but they shouldn't strike fear into the Eagles.

Show Notes:Laura's links:Laura's PT Practice (website) https://realign-pt.com/Laura's Personal Instagram https://www.instagram.com/lkschmoo/Wave Tools Therapy (website) https://wavetoolstherapy.com/Wave Tools Therapy (Instagram) https://www.instagram.com/wavetoolstherapy/Episode Intro:Dear listeners of the Female Guides Requested Podcast, welcome back. I'm your host Ting Ting from Las Vegas. Today is another beautiful Wednesday so I'm delivering another fantastic episode with our guest Laura Schmonsees.I've been wanting to interview Laura for quite some time. She has an amazing life story and has gone through quite a few career transitions from a full time instructor and guide to a physical therapist and then to an entrepreneur. She is definitely not afraid of trying new things and she always figures out a way to make them work. She was also one of the first female AMGA certified Rock Guide when she obtained the certification in 2001. Climbing has always be one of Laura's greatest passions.In this episode, Laura talked about how her first NOLS course changed her life. How that experience inspired her to live and work in the outdoors. And after 10 years working full time for NOLS visiting and living in pristine and wild places, why she decided to transition into guiding with Jackson Hole Mountain Guides, and later what made her decide to start from ground zero and enter the physical therapy school and eventually started her company Wave Tools Therapy, educating others and selling athletic recovery products.We also discussed how to prevent injury and perform self care to make one's guiding and athletic life longer and more sustainable. There are so many insights in Laura's answers and I can't wait to share our conversations with you all.Things We Talked about:At age 19 Laura took her first NOLS course and it changed her lifeAfter the NOLS course Laura transferred to Prescott CollegeWorking for NOLS full time for 10 years (1997-2007)Why Laura loves NOLS (wild places, truly remote, and impact on people)NOLS versus guiding?NOLS has long courses and at some point, Laura wanted more groundingGuiding has shorter tripsBecame one of the first female AMGA Rock GuidesLeaving guiding was hard but it was time for Laura to transition againPhysical therapy school from the comfort of being good at something you've done for a long time to a total beginnerMountain Senses / Mountain Skills?Mentorship situation in NOLS and in JHMG (Jackson Hole Mountain Guides)Do people romanticize guiding?Currently Laura sees patients and work on her business Wave Tools Therapy to diversify her work timeWhat are the common guides' injuries?What are the strategies guides can use for injury preventionSelf care for a longer athletic lifeStart and run a businessProudest momentsOne big take away?Tolerance of uncertainty and adversity

Join us on this episode of Papa Bear Hikes as we delve into the world of backpacking and wilderness adventures with a seasoned expert, Adam Salinger. With an impressive 45 years of backpacking experience under his belt, Adam shares his insights on maximizing distance while minimizing gear—a skill that comes from years of research and testing of the latest backpacking equipment. But Adam's ability does not stop at gear choice. He is a master of creating off-trail routes, allowing him to savor solitude and relish the sense of accomplishment that comes with venturing off the beaten path. His passion for adventure is palpable, and he often finds himself immersed in maps and daydreaming about his next outdoor journey. In addition to his backpacking prowess, Adam boasts an impressive academic background with a Business Degree (BS) and a master's in education (MA). He is also certified in Wilderness First Aid (WFR from NOLS since 2016). As an elementary school educator, he's successfully integrated outdoor education into his curriculum and extracurricular activities. Notably, he created and supervised a Grades K-12 school site with a strong emphasis on Outdoor Education. Tune in to discover the wealth of knowledge and experience that Adam brings to the world of backpacking and outdoor adventures. From his remarkable off-trail escapades to his dedication to outdoor education, Adam's story is one of inspiration and a testament to the transformative power of nature. Don't miss this episode of Papa Bear Hikes, where we explore the incredible journey of Adam Salinger, a backpacking aficionado, and dedicated outdoor educator, living in the beautiful landscapes of Sacramento, California, with his wife and daughter. Follow Adam on IG: @alpineadventurecoaching • Instagram photos and videosFor additional information:Alpine Adventure CoachingAvalon Publicity & Business Services Increasing the Digital Footprint of Content Creators via Modern Publicity and Social Media ServicesSupport the showGet outside, have fun and be safe!Martin Armitage, Host of the Papa Bear Hikes Podcasthttps://www.papabearhikes.com/https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/papa-bear-hikes/id1541491746https://www.instagram.com/papabearhikes01/

Segment 2, September 16th, 2023 What's the background of a Charlotte-area businessman?  He may work with a business that you know, maybe he works with your property, or your family.  Maybe you grew up with him or went to his school.  However- you probably don't know one of his passions over his life and career & how the directions within those passions came about. Walter Bridgeman is the owner of Remedics Restoration Carolinas.  He purchased that business in 2016.  Although he takes care of properties that have had water, fire, mold, smoke damage he began a resume of adventure years before. Introduced to the outdoors growing up in Charlotte through Scouting & a NOLS course while attending UNC - Chapel Hill, it was a Boy Scout trip the introduced him to mountaineering. On this segment we'll learn Bridgeman's story of Divine Intervention.  He'll be telling this true, autobiographical account at Storyteller's Night at Jesse Brown's on Thursday, September 21st, 2023.  Bridgeman will be joining Tom Blocker telling his story Fast Lane & Gracy Ly & Marty Ohlhaut with their family saga, Tent for Seven. We'll learn about some of the mountains, the dangers, the fears, and the fun.  A few of the mountains discussed & climbed are Ranier, Baker, Denali, Mt. Blanc, Grand Teton, Washington in the winter, & Pico de Orizaba. Note:  Bridgeman has shopped in all the outdoor stores that Jesse Brown's has had since 1971.  In fact, Bridgeman thought the SouthPark-area was far away from Cotswold.  Now it seems so close to get to Jesse Brown's.

James and Danl talk about what to put in a first aid kit, what not to rely on, and where to get stop the bleed training. We will share IFAK details and links below and in a Twitter thread. 1. Reliable suppliers Chinook Medical (https://www.chinookmed.com/) North American Rescue (https://www.narescue.com/0 Rescue Essentials (www.rescue-essentials.com)  2. Supplies  Tourniquet: (https://www.rescue-essentials.com/combat-application-tourniquet-cat-gen-7/)  Pressure dressing ( https://www.rescue-essentials.com/olaes-modular-bandage/) Chest Seal (  https://www.rescue-essentials.com/hyfin-vent-chest-seal-twin-pack/) Hemostatic gauze (https://www.rescue-essentials.com/quikclot-combat-gauze-z-folded-military/) Packed Gauze (https://www.rescue-essentials.com/nar-responder-rolled-compressed-gauze/) Lil' sharpie (https://www.rescue-essentials.com/sharpie-mini-marker-black/)  Emergency Blanket (https://www.rescue-essentials.com/rescue-essentials-emergency-blanket/)  Gloves (https://www.rescue-essentials.com/ten-pairs-bear-claw-tan-nitrile-gloves/) Shears (https://www.rescue-essentials.com/stainless-steel-5-5-emt-shears/)  Pouch (you can also use a fanny pack) (https://lbxtactical.com/collections/medp/products/65?variant=31255204036706) 3. Some pre-made options  https://www.narescue.com/all-products/medical-kits/uscg-mini-ifak.html (you will want to add a second chest seal)  https://www.rescue-essentials.com/nar-eagle-ifak-combat-gauze/ https://www.rescue-essentials.com/fletc-ifak-with-components-module/ (If you don't know how to use the NPA, don't try!)  4. Training Stop The Bleed https://www.stopthebleed.org/training/ NOLS https://www.nols.edu/en/coursefinder/session_search/wilderness-medicine/ REI Wilderness Medicine (https://www.rei.com/events/a/outdoor-skills-wilderness-medicine)  Red Cross First Aid For Severe Trauma (https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/first-aid/first-aid-training/first-aid-classes/fast-training) See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In today's episode, we're thrilled to host Melis Coady, who has just triumphantly wrapped up her 7th season as the executive director of the Alaska Avalanche School. With over two decades of experience in the challenging fields of mountaineering and avalanche studies, Melis has since emerged as a prominent figure in outdoor education, bringing her deep knowledge to roles such as a mountaineering instructor, climbing guide, and wilderness medicine instructor. Making her home in Talkeetna, Alaska since the late 90's, Melis first navigated the intricate world of snow and avalanches through daring expeditions in Alaska. These experiences laid the groundwork for her career, leading to her role as a climbing instructor for the renowned NOLS and Alaska Mountaineering School. Her determination and expertise then propelled her to become a high-altitude mountaineering guide, amassing a formidable tally of ascents on Denali, Foraker, and countless other peaks. Melis' adaptability and thirst for new challenges also led her to become a climbing ranger in Denali National Park, where she worked for four summers educating climbers, safeguarding natural resources, and serving as a vital member of a technical rescue team. This adventurous spirit even took her to the South Pole, where was working as an arctic guide for Antarctic Logistics and Expeditions. In this enlightening episode, Brooke and Melis delve into what makes Alaska a uniquely potent and effective classroom for avalanche education. They also explore the intriguing use of the expedition format as a means of teaching formal avalanche courses. With her profound experience and relentless passion for outdoor education, Melis imparts invaluable insights into the world of mountaineering and avalanche safety, making this episode a must-listen. Socials: The Avalanche hour Podcast: https://www.instagram.com/theavalanchehourpodcast/ Melis - https://www.instagram.com/akavalancheschool/ Links: Alaska Avalanche School - https://alaskaavalanche.org/ Sponsors for this episode: Wyssen : https://www.wyssenavalanche.com/en/ Crew: Host - Brooke Shiny Edwards - https://www.instagram.com/wildworldwanderings/ Executive Producer - Caleb Merrill Producer - Cameron Griffin - https://www.instagram.com/backcountrycam/ Donate: The Avalanche Hour Podcast - https://www.theavalanchehour.com/donate The American Avalanche Association - https://www.americanavalancheassociation.org/donate Music: By Ketsa - https://ketsa.uk/ Intro: New Highs Old Lows Music outro: Percussive Melodies 4

A young man hungry to learn how to recreate in the mountains, and a veteran guide leading the NOLS course in the Waddington Range of British Columbia. Their recollections of the trip, the challenges they face and the moments they find memorable, do not always line up.  Support comes from Patagonia Athletic Greens Kuat Racks Rumpl   Want more episodes? Join Dirtbag Diaries+ today

Collin guides those seeking self-empowerment and personal transformation on enchanted journeys through a magical blend of Sacred Movement, Rituals & Ceremony, and Walking (Hiking~Backpacking~Trekking) as a Sacred Practice. Since beginning her career as a motivational speaker, walking guide, owner/operator of an outdoor gear shop, and master facilitator of creative events, she has helped endless clients discover their inner strength and self-confidence. Collin is widely recognized for her playful humor and the great delight she brings to all she offers. After losing over 100lbs by adding a daily walk to her life, she now inspires people to find health and happiness through the simple act of taking a walk in the magic of nature. Her own journey has taken her from hiking the 2,180 miles of the Appalachian Trail to mystical sojourns throughout Peru, Nepal, Thailand, Europe, and India. She is the author of the award-winning book WildWood Magic: Walking as a Sacred Path, an experienced yoga instructor, a NOLS-certified Wilderness First Responder, a Backcountry Survival Instructor, and a “Leave No Trace” Master Educator. Collin teaches these and other skills through experiential, custom-created programs, mystical retreats, and inspirational events all over the world. Guest Links- To reach Collin: collin@wildwoodmagic.com Link to purchase the book, WildWood Magic: Walking as a Sacred Path (paperback or Kindle): https://bit.ly/wildwoodmagic Collin's Website: www.WildWoodMagic.com  Collin's Facebook Page:  http://www.facebook.com/CollinStuartChambers/   Collin on Instagram:  http://www.instagram.com/wildwoodmagic/ The Women's Circle Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/theWildWoodCircle The My Walking, Hiking, & Backpacking as a Sacred Path Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/walkingasasacredpath Collin's Free Gift to you “A Guide to Self-Empowerment Through Walking as a Sacred Practice”: https://bit.ly/3sQMW1A To book an appointment to chat with me: https://WildWoodMagic.as.me/ Connect with Anna, aka Mud Butt, at info@traildames.com You can find the Trail Dames at: Our website: https://www.traildames.com The Summit: https://www.traildamessummit.com The Trail Dames Foundation: https://www.tdcharitablefoundation.org Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/traildames/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/traildames/ Hiking Radio Network: https://hikingradionetwork.com/ Hiking Radio Network on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hikingradionetwork/ Music provided for this Podcast by The Burns Sisters "Dance Upon This Earth" https://www.theburnssisters.com

On today's episode, we have the pleasure of speaking with Kate Koons, a highly respected professional in the Avalanche industry. Kate is a resident of Victor, Idaho, and holds several critical positions in the field. She is a pro instructor for the American Institute for Avalanche Research and Education (AIARE), was the past A3 (American Avalanche Association) pro training coordinator, and currently serves on the A3 board of directors. Kate shares with us her fascinating journey, from her NOLS experience to her current work supporting the crew in Antarctica at McMurdo Station. She delves into the immense pressure that comes with such a role and shares with us valuable insights on self-care and the importance of taking much-needed breaks. As a leader in the industry, Kate sets an example by taking time to rest and unwind, all while remaining an active participant in the world around her. While she enjoys spending time with her furry companions, she is also passionate about immersing herself in diverse experiences, such as exploring Muslim culture in Pakistan. Socials: The Avalanche hour Podcast: https://www.instagram.com/theavalanchehourpodcast/ Guest - Kate Koons - https://www.instagram.com/kkoons/?hl=en Crew: Host - Sean Zimmerman-Wall Sound Editor - Cameron Griffin - https://www.instagram.com/backcountrycam/ Sponsors for this episode: Wyssen : https://www.wyssenavalanche.com/en/ 6 Point Engineering - https://6pointeng.com/ Donate: https://www.theavalanchehour.com/donate Music- Ketsa- Can't Stop We, Boppin

In today's episode of Backpacker Radio presented by The Trek, we are once again joined by Patricia Cameron. We catch up on all that she's been up to since our last interview, including a NOLS mountaineering leadership course in Alaska, a 2022 LASH on the PCT, and a hiker trash prom hosted by her organization, Blackpackers. Patricia also shares a distressing story of her being the victim of a hate crime during her PCT hike in Lone Pine, California, in which she caught the entire encounter on video. We play the audio from this incident, get Patricia's take on exactly what went down, some of her thoughts on the risk and reception of being a hiker of color through these rural towns, and despite this incident, why she has no plans to stop long-distance backpacking anytime soon. A warning to listeners that the audio from this video is triggering, but I do believe that it's important for everyone in the community to hear this and get a sense of the depressing reality that still persists for many of our fellow hikers. We wrap the show with a few reasons why a flip-flop thru-hike might be the way to go on the AT, a triple crown of non-dog pets, a superb listener poop story, and more. Enlightened Equipment: Use code “TREKPOD10” for 10% off Enlightened Equipment's Stock Revelation Quilt or Torrid Jacket at enlightenedequipment.com. Organifi: Use code “BACKPACKER” for 20% off at organifi.com/backpacker. Gossamer Gear: Use code “TAKELESSTREKMORE” for 15% off at gossamergear.com.  [divider] Interview with Patricia Cameron Blackpacker's Website Patricia's Twitter Patricia's Instagram Blackpackers Instagram Time stamps & Questions 00:06:50 - QOTD: Would you take 5 years off your life to talk back and forth with your dog for one hour? 00:11:45 - Reminders: subscribe to the Trek newsletter for news about the Badger Sponsorship 00:12:20 - Introducing Patricia 00:13:14 - What have you been up to since March of 2021? 00:14:54 - What does a person do on a glacier for 2 weeks? 00:18:41 - What inspired you to take the class and learn these winter skills? 00:20:03 - How does a day on a glacier compare to a day of backpacking? 00:22:02 - What skill were you most excited to learn? 00:24:35 - How did you transition from Alaska to Kennedy Meadows? 00:25:30 - Tell us about starting on the PCT 00:26:40 - Discussion about cold soaking and food planning 00:28:33 - What made the PCT harder than you were expecting? 00:33:27 - Tell us about hiking after injuring your leg. 00:35:11 - Did you consider getting off trail? 00:36:01 - Tell us about the incident that happened in Lone Pine. 00:40:25 - *Trigger warning: Audio clip starts* 00:41:22 - *Trigger warning: Audio clip ends* 00:42:30 - Were you scared at that moment? 00:42:45 - Were you more or less scared going back to trail after that? 00:45:38 - Tell us more about Nicole and Girls Fight Back 00:46:43 - Is there a part of you that feels vindicated by capturing the incident on video? 00:50:18 - What will it take for you to feel safe going to Lone Pine? 00:53:48 - What do you want the listener to take away from hearing this? 00:56:48 - How did the incident impact the rest of your hike, particularly in trail towns? 01:00:30 - Any parting messages related to this? 01:01:04 - Where did your LASH end? 01:03:30 - Discussion about Amtrak ride from Truckee to Denver 01:06:00 - Discussion about the Tahoe Rim Trail 01:08:20 - Would you recommend the TRT to others? 01:10:00 - Tell us about your Good Morning America interview 01:14:15 - Discussion about public speaking 01:15:40 - Tell us about Hiker Trash Prom 01:17:48 - What's coming up for Blackpackers in 2023? 01:20:00 - Thank you! SEGMENTS Trek Propaganda 6 Reasons a Flip-Flop Thru-Hike of the Appalachian Trail Is the Right Way To Go by Richard “Crossword” Guenther That's all, Folks. by MG Hibionada Triple Crown of non-dog pets Mail Bag 5 Star Review [divider] Check out our sound guy @paulyboyshallcross. Subscribe to this podcast on iTunes (and please leave us a review)!  Find us on Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Play. Support us on Patreon to get bonus content. Advertise on Backpacker Radio Follow The Trek, Chaunce, Badger, and Trail Correspondents on Instagram. Follow The Trek and Chaunce on YouTube. Follow Backpacker Radio on Tik Tok.  A super big thank you to our Chuck Norris Award winner(s) from Patreon: Andrew, Austen McDaniel, Austin Ford, Brad & Blair (Thirteen Adventures), Brent Stenberg, Christopher Marshburn, Dayne, Greg McDaniel, Kristina Diaz, Matt Soukup, Mike Poisel, Patrick Cianciolo, Paul Packman Sealy, Sawyer Products, and Tracy “Trigger” Fawns. A big thank you to our Cinnamon Connection Champions from Patreon: Dcnerdlet, Jacob Northrup, Jeff LaFranier, Keith Dobie Jr, Liz Seger, and Peter.

What's the purpose of education? If you were to ask 10 different people this question, you may get 10 different answers. Education shouldn't be this complex, but getting people to come to a consensus on anything right now is a challenge. This can be a problem. If teachers are expected to meet ambiguous goals, it can lead to burnout and frustration.  In this episode, we hear how conflicting values in education may be contributing to teachers' decisions to leave.   Music:  Theme Song By Julian Saporiti  “Your Paradigm Dial” by Origami Repetika is licensed under a CC  BY license.   “Room With a View” by Jahzzar is licensed under a CC BY-SA license.  “Business Getaway  ” by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a  CC BY-NC license. “I Was Different” by Ov Moi Omm is licensed under a CC  BY license.   “Sunny Afternoon” by HoliznaCC0 is in the Public Domain. Transcript: In the spring of 2016, Julian Saporiti, the guy that made the theme song for this podcast, asked me if I wanted to help him teach a summer road trip class for the University of Wyoming. It was easy to say yes, and this class ended up being one of the most influential educational experiences that I've ever had.  Many of our students felt the same way. One of them, Sam Mallory, even talked about it in his graduation speech.  Sam Mallory: Two years ago about this time of year, I was officially enrolled in the most influential course in my college experience And what made this class so significant likely had to do with the fact that we valued experience over product, which is a pretty non-traditional approach to a college course.. Our Syllabus included the following:  Introductions: Julian Saporiti -  Instructor /Guitarist. Charles Fournier Advisor/ Contemplation Mentor Books: Jack Kerouak's On The Road and John Steinbeck's Travels with Charlie Music: Songs and lyrics for sing-alongs Assignments: This list included items like helping a stranger, keeping a journal, and dancing in the moonlight Safety Measures: Information about bear country, how to react if lost, and how to create a cross-draft in your vehicle to fart rather than holding it in and risking feeling sick  Traveling Recommendations for Women: A list focused on hygiene and affirmations created by wife, Jennie, who is a brilliant traveler but opted to stay home to plan for classes and manage our new ornery dog Lastly: “Be Amazed. Be Present.” We set out for two weeks across Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana. We danced to music by firelight in the Tetons under the Milky Way. I taught a pair of girls how to build a fire and when they asked what I thought about feminism, we read parts of The Vagina Monologues while lighting things on fire- one of those girls just wrote an award-winning screenplay. We observed the wildlife of national parks and saw some animals as well.  I love this model for education. A kind of structure of non-structure that gives students a chance to grow autonomy and learn on the go. It was an experience, and the students were, if not changed, greatly impacted by that course. Julian and I were too.  I tried to apply some of the elements of this course to my high school classes the next school year. I wanted kids to sit around a fire and have conversations, to worry less about grades or tests, and to focus on collaborative experiences that result in knowledge acquisition.  Then the school year started. My fire pit idea was struck down, and the weight of standardized assessments, and everything else settled into place. My idealism was smothered by bureaucratic reality. There's nothing quite like having your grand plan for the new school year get deflated by October. And this brings me to a question that I have continuously returned to as a teacher when this happens - What's the point of education? Why are we here? The answer is ambiguous, and that uncertainty has led to conflict and confusion in education. So on the show today, we will ask “What's the purpose of education?” Because if we can't come to a consensus, teachers will continue to be expected to meet all of the competing thoughts about for what education is for. This is frustrating and adds to the stress and burnout that is leading teachers to find careers that might have more clearly defined parameters.  This is Those Who Can't Teach Anymore, a 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus. I'm Charles Fournier. Here is part 4: “Why Are We Here?” Why we educate kids seems like it should be an easily answered question. But in my conversations with all levels of people involved in and around education, there wasn't a clear consistent answer:  Gary Martin:We have to work on their cognitive skills, you know, the critical thinking. Christy Chadwick: I think we have this idea that the purpose of education is to raise the next generation. But now, it sort of feels like a control factor. It feels like we're just controlling society through education.   Caskey Russell: Fostering creativity in the students, critical thinking, removing kind of cultural blind spots, providing kind of an equal access all across the board, regardless of class race, getting an idea of community, American community as the kind of multicultural tapestry. Lindsey Freeman: I mean, that's a big part of it is workforce development. But just citizens, I mean, our government or politicians, like everything that our world needs to continue starts in the classroom.  Jaye Wacker: Oh, my gosh, to protect a democratic republic. You know, pure and simple. We have to be educated, we have to be able to see through the bullshit, you know.  Jennica Fournier: I thought my role was to teach students about chemistry and biology. But I think sometimes there's the expectation that you're babysitting them. or that you're keeping them safe.  Shane Atkinson: I really tried to make it about the human connection.  Elizabeth Smith: The purpose of education is to train our people to be worker bees, and to have the skills necessary to devote their entire lives towards the betterment of a few elite versus the greater good of all.  It's a lot, and that can be a problem. And there is a split between the ideal for what education is for and the reality that often stifles idealism. What we do know is that an educational system is inherently political because it reflects a country's values. But what is valued in the US is continuously evolving and hard to pin down.  Education started in the Americas as a way to teach kids how to be a part of their community. Then it started to shift with colonization. Education went from being morality focused - teaching literacy so that people could read the Bible. To Democracy and assimilation focused - forcing people to fit a standard ideal while emphasizing being an active citizen. To worker focused - creating industrialized systems to set people up to enter the workforce. To academic and standards focused - standardizing curriculum with the intent to compete on the global scale.  But now, as demonstrated by the crazy political climate, what we value as a country is unclear, so what education should look like is also unclear.   This lack of clarity is landing at the feet of teachers. And having a job with no clear and agreed upon objective is frustrating. Should teachers be focused on standardized tests, on learning, on mental health, on social health, on morality, on graduation rates? It's not clear. But what is clear, is that having more of a shared value system would be valuable. A shared vision of what education is for. This would give teachers a clear objective that does not leave room for the petty arguments that are at the heart of so many educational dilemmas that are driving teachers out.  I think we can get there. I spoke with people from all over the political spectrum for this podcast, and I am certain that we can get to a shared set of values.   Juan Laden: Fundamentally, we need to make available within our teaching environment the understanding of other people and the possibilities for children to do so many things. Juan Laden sat down with me at the Lander Bake Shop. I had set up a microphone and taped up a sign with two questions: Why are teachers leaving Education? And What is the Purpose of Education? Because I don't want to hassle folks, I sat quietly with my dirty chai and waited for people to come to me. Juan sidled over in a dutch cap, still chewing on a pastry, and starting answering questions before he even sat down.  Juan Laden: I think they're good teachers, and that's why they're leaving. And so that's, are you recording this? Good, good? Juan is a lot of things. He has never been a public school teacher, but he was an experiential climbing instructor for the National Outdoor Leadership School or NOLS, he has traveled around and lived in Europe, he is knowledgeable in many things including plumbing and photography, and he knows a lot about pedagogy, this is a word educators use to talk about the method or practice of teaching: Juan Laden: And basically, I think the concept in America of education is filling a receptacle, and that is not what it's about.  What Juan is referring to is also called the banking method - the idea is that a student's educational experience is to get packed full of information, and that's it. The banking method is not a popular pedagogy because it lacks a need for critical thinking and creativity and disregards the fact that students come to school already possessing knowledge. Many folks I spoke with push against this focus of education - to pack kids full of information. Juan agrees, and he explained that he thinks education should feel more like caving.  Juan Laden:  I'm a caver and talk about exploration. Most people don't like the idea of caving. I tell them they just had a difficult birth and never got over it. But you know, it's like, what a trip. You're exploring to the max. When you find a new cave…the dream of all cavers is to find the big, going cave, like, “Wow, there's a hole and you go in there, and it goes, and it goes, and there's more.” The idea that you're actually going where no one's been before, and that's what exploration is. It is a very deep drive in all humans to start out with - that curiosity, that emotional need to explore is driven by curiosity. Exploration was a tenet of that Road Trip class, and something I wish my high school classroom had more of now. We gave the students the freedom to choose where they wanted to go and how they wanted to get there. This is how we ended up at a hot spring called Chicken Soup in Idaho. Idaho wasn't even in our original plan.  The desire to explore was also an ideal across many of my conversations with teachers about what education is for - to help students jump into a metaphorical or literal cave. But the reality of teaching in a public school setting is that this ability to delve into curiosity is often devalued by what is required in the curriculum, community pressures, or a lack of resources. And the breadth of information that needs to be covered in a curriculum sometimes does not allow for depth or the chance for student exploration.  I know of several projects that students would learn from and enjoy that were dead on arrival because they did not meet a curricular requirement or wouldn't work for a specific standardized assessment. Such limits can take away from the joy of teaching and we've already seen that it can lead to teachers quitting.  Exploration is something worth valuing, but based on how our system is currently structured, it isn't valued enough.  To get another idea about this question, we're going to take a step back and start with what an educational jack-of-all-trades says about the purpose of education. I met up with Colby Gull at his office. Colby is the Managing Director for the trustees education initiative in the College of Education at the University of Wyoming. I asked him what the purpose of education is: Colby Gull: That is too complex of a question for your podcast, probably.  This shouldn't be the case. To me, this is part of the problem. I wish education could be simpler. For instance, for their final project during the road trip class, a pair of students designed and printed a t-shirt for the class. And they created a slogan for each person in the course. Mine read “Just trying to teach people not to be assholes.” And you know, that sums up my pedagogy pretty well.  But Colby's right. Our country's current view of education is very complex. We can't easily say that education should be for exploration like Juan says, or that education is trying to teach people not to be assholes like my t-shirt motto says. And our system might be too complex. We might be trying to layer in too much.  And Colby, who was a teacher, principal, and superintendent, is aware of that. Here he is again with another answer that tries to better address the complexities for what he sees as the purpose of education: Colby Gull: I think we have to help our students to gain some basic knowledge, some basic skills around academic areas. We want them to understand how to read and to ask good questions. And we want them to understand some mathematical things and solve problems. But we also want to give them opportunities to explore new ideas and new ways of thinking about things and to analyze their own thinking, and , ”Why is my opinion that? Maybe it should be something else?” But I think the purpose of all of that is to help students to be prepared to go out and reach their potential, and to do great things and challenge thinking and make things better for themselves and for the people around them. Colby's answers show his expertise. He is a guy that spends his life thinking about education and helping to train and retain teachers, and through all of his roles, he has had to deal with the bureaucracy and politics of education more intimately than most teachers ever do. What a teacher might value does not include the political nature of education And this is where the conflict comes in. Something like the Road Trip Class, is my ideal education structure because it also reflects my values. But that does not work in public education. Teacher values and idealism often collapse against the layers of the education system's bureaucracy. And it's disheartening. So we end up with statements like Colby's second answer.  It covers a lot but it is also pretty generalized. It sounds like an institutional response to the question, or a mission statement - their purpose of education proclamation. To compare, here is the mission statement from the United States Department of education:  “The United States Department of Education's  mission is to promote student achievement and preparation for global competitiveness by fostering educational excellence and ensuring equal access.” And here are a few more mission statements to compare to from districts across the country. Try to guess where they're from: “We ensure equitable access to a transformative educational experience grounded in the assets of our students, staff, and community.” Here's Another: “To ensure high levels of learning for all students. To continuously develop our capacity to function as a collaborative culture.”  One more: “Our commitment is to prepare each student to become a career and college ready citizen. We will partner with families and the community to provide an engaging and challenging education in a safe and positive environment.” Each of these mission statements, from the US Department of Education to districts from three different time zones across the US have similar and vague declarations. They feel like a fortune - “You are about to rediscover a lost connection to your past.”  I get why the mission statements are vague. They are meant for a diverse population, and each family within that population should be able to see some value in these mission statements because public education is for everyone.  But this is also where we can run into problems. The way I read “preparing each student to become a career and college ready citizen” is unique from what the administration, or students, or parents, or even other teachers may think. Do I think a person needs to avoid spaghetti straps to be a productive citizen? Not really, but I do think knowing how to work towards and meet a deadline would help. So why does a vague purpose of education lead to teachers leaving the profession? Because many educators are finding that their interpretation of these missions and goals are in conflict with those of the administration, school board, or community. Values are not aligning. Which creates stress and sometimes forces a choice, do what they believe in and create conflict, or compromise their values and feel miserable.   Every now and then there are times when idealism aligns within the classroom, which can create amazing moments.  For Allison Lash, who was an art teacher in New York City that we heard from last episode, building community and learning in her mind require providing students with new experiences and opportunities. Allison Lash: That's the kind of thing that I love bringing to kids like these little snippets and experiences that they might not get in the classroom.  When her second graders were learning about rocks and gemstones from books, Allison organized a field trip to the Museum of Natural History because she knew they had an amazing collection. Allison Lash: And I took all the kids out of the Bronx and into Manhattan. And as we're and I rev them up, like for the field trip, and I told them we're leaving the Bronx, we're leaving the Bronx because so many of them have never left the Bronx are there. So many of them never left like many of them lived in the projects, the building. And so they only traveled from the building to school a block away in the supermarket like this. These like four streets, basically. And the kids when we were driving over the water and on the bridge to get to Manhattan, they were all screaming when they said we're leaving the Bronx. So I love, I love being able to do that. The ability to leave the space of the school often creates authentic learning experiences for students. These are experiences that connect students to their communities, which is a common value presented in school district mission statements. But there are limiting factors to leaving the space of the school. This is where idealism can be deflated because much of the modern purpose of education is now tied to keeping kids safe. This is why we practice having lockdowns.  Lauren Schumacher spoke to me about how fear and wanting to keep kids safe impacts how we view the purpose of education. Lauren Schumacher: And I think, sadly, with all the violence, you know, the school shootings situations, continue to make our country want to fence our buildings in and put doorbells on and all that which I understand. But in the same breath, we need to be removing them from the fences and getting them out into communities. I think that is more of the direction we need to move education. I was really excited to talk to Lauren. I set up an interview station outside next to the Valley Bookstore in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. I didn't meet Lauren first, I met her whole family. Her daughter saw my signs about teachers leaving and said, “My mom is going to want to talk to you” before she ran back from the direction she came to get her mom.  Lauren was on vacation with her family. She is an administrator in Florida, and she had previously taught in both Missouri and Florida, but everything she talked about matched what teachers in my home state brought up. In terms of the purpose of education, Lauren echoes the idea of wanting more experiential learning that gets kids into their communities. Lauren Schumacher: I think we need to step away from the traditional brick and mortar, and get our kids out and learning.  But, as Lauren pointed out earlier, with threats of violence in schools, education might be moving the other direction. I hate this. We desperately need to be moving towards mobility and freedom and exploration - not away from it. When I reflect on that road trip class, there were elements of risk - absolutely - but we didn't structure our educational experience around fear. Nor did threats feel looming like they do in modern education.  When I answer my classroom door, I always have a pen in hand - it's the sharpest object in my room, and I look through the window to check who is at my door, and what is in their hands before I let them in. Every time I answer the door, I play through a scenario of an active shooter. Our doors stay locked and shut because the statistics show that locked and shut doors save lives, and we value student lives. But this is the setting in which we are trying to teach exploration and wonder. It's hard to have idealistic values and believe the purpose of education is for exploration in a locked room. So I have to return to the question, “What is the purpose of education?” Because if it's to protect kids from violence and shootings, this is a heavy burden to ask teachers to carry. And the weight of it is becoming too much for many educators. Such expectations make teachers feel like their job descriptions have shifted. And this is where more complexity comes in. Rather than being facilitators of learning, critical thinking, and exploration, teachers are having to do any number of things. Ron Ruckman: I think that's the awesome part of teaching is that you get to be all those things, you know, but it puts a huge mental drain on teachers.  This is Ron Ruckman, we heard a little bit from him in the second episode. Ron taught for 23 years and quit to run his construction business that he has with a friend. A business that does not require Ron to have to engage with much other than completing projects. Part of why Ron left had to do with a purpose of education that required too much from him. Ron Ruckman:That's the problem. I think that for me that that has finally just kind of wore me out. The needs of kids beyond way beyond science, just the stuff I teach my subject matter. I do so much more. I spend so much time and it seems like I've spent more and more time as my teaching career has gone on. Kids seem to be a lot more needy of that kind of attention, and then we have one counselor. She can only do so much. She's got a line at her office most days, and it's like, you just have to wear all those hats to be the teacher, be the counselor, be the be mom and dad. That's the reality for some kids. Ron recognizes that these kids need more than content. Mental health matters, even more so with the pandemic. In 2021, the CDC reported that nearly half of teenagers reported feeling sad or hopeless over the last year, and schools are a great resource for students who are struggling, but most school counselors are constantly busy because they have so many students needing help. Some of that overflow lands on teachers. For some teachers, who are not qualified or professional counselors, this is too emotionally taxing. So is this the purpose of education? To support the mental health of students? If it is, how does this match the structure of our education system?  For Ron, he knows students need support, and he also believes that education needs to focus on things that are relevant to his content.   Ron Ruckman: It's important that we keep teaching critical thinking. My district recently held a professional development day where local business people explained what they want our schools to prepare students for. One of the things they pointed to was the ability to think critically and problem solve. Another was the ability to value and communicate with other people. To actively engage in a civilized manner and recognize not everyone shares the same perspective.  Ron Ruckman: If you're not willing to feel cognitive dissonance, if you're not willing to feel that uncomfortable feeling of what you thought, and then realizing that maybe that wasn't the truth. I had an uncle that always taught me you can learn something from everybody. And that includes every little fifth grader that I've ever had come through my room. Every single person I meet, I learned something from. That's what a teacher should be doing is teaching kids that you need to make your own opinion, but you need to consider all the data and all the opinions of others and put it all together and then make your own educated opinion. Ron values critical thinkers that have a growth mindset. He does not want learning to stop for people once they graduate. For Ron, if the purpose of education is to grow an active and informed citizenry, which harkens back to what the founding fathers wanted of education, then learning should be lifelong.  Ron Ruckman: It's okay to change what you believe in. When you consider more evidence, you know, and as you go through life, you learn more things and you see more things and, you know, and that I think a lot of people don't like that. We can't just be stuck in one way of thinking all of our life, otherwise, you're just gonna be very unhappy. So through science, Ron was helping students think critically and communicate with one another and form opinions all while addressing students' other needs - which ended up wearing him out by the time he left his job. For Ron, the purpose of education isn't finite,  and it became too much for him to continue.  One last thing about Ron. When considering the purpose of education, there is some speculation that teachers are using education as a place to spew a political agenda. Ron is adamant that this is incorrect. Ron Ruckman: Well, and that's part of the part of my, just kind of my disgust with the public right now is the image of teachers being, you know, we're out there to indoctrinate kids or whatever that bullshit is. And I'm sorry to use that word, but that it is, it's bullshit. That one will get me fired up more than anything else, you know, we're there to just teach them about the subjects that, you know, that we're in, you know, and we're not out there to indoctrinate. No teacher that I spoke with or know of is actively trying to indoctrinate students. That is not the purpose of education in their minds. Some teachers even joked that they wished they could indoctrinate students - then maybe students would do their homework and turn things in on time. But this fear of indoctrination from non-educators is a problem, making it more difficult to define the purpose of education simply. In my ideal for education, I get to act as a facilitator of curiosity. I help students explore their interests by guiding them towards relevant resources, and I feel like it's my job to not be offended. I want students to be able to ask honest questions about whatever they're interested in. And at no point will I stop a curious student and say, “I'm sorry, you cannot address that in this room. This room is for English content only.” or “That does not fit within our mission statement.”  I want to be able to stray from content in my classroom, but it does not match a view of education that is content specific and easily measured. There seems to be a fear that anything outside of a content area is indoctrination or a deviant plot to warp the minds of children - muwahahaha. It's asinine and disregards the fact that expecting teachers to only teach content and nothing more is missing a big part of what education is. Ron Ruckman: I think the expectation, honestly, is that that's all you do is teach your subject, and that's all you should ever, you know, and what they don't realize is, these kids need so much more. And I think there's so much more on our plate as a teacher than what the public thinks is there or even expects us to do, but we don't have a choice. We, you know, we would have, you know, we'd have no, we'd have utter chaos. You know, if we didn't wear all those hats Going into a classroom and only trying to teach content, while addressing nothing else, rarely works. This is why guest speakers sometimes flounder - they assume their expertise is enough to engage students - and they get eaten alive. But the focus on content can't be dismissed. Standards and standardized assessments are a constant quality of modern education. Is this what we value? Content that will be assessed on a standardized assessment? In reality, assessments are the main measurable expectations that are placed onto schools. And for many teachers, if the purpose of education is to only have students do well on a test, then that is enough of a reason to quit teaching. Teachers are having to balance teaching content that students will be tested on with their values and ideas about the social, emotional or cultural things that are harder to measure but necessary for a well-functioning classroom. And having to be responsible for a list of ambiguous immeasurables is draining and pushing teachers out. Ron Ruckman: I mean, now we are basically caretakers of those kids.  We met Rachael Esh last episode, she left teaching to write children's books, and she felt like the foundation of her teaching experience was based on relationships:  Rachaeel Esh: And even when you learn when you go into teaching, you know this. The number one thing they teach you is relationships, build relationships, don't worry about the content until you have the relationships because we know they're not going to listen to you if they don't respect you or care about you to get that other information. So you've got to build that. You've got to have your expectations.The purpose of education, I mean, it's just, it's all encompassing. Raising a kid takes a community and I feel like teachers are a big part of that community. Rachael wants to foster kindness and curiosity and empathy. This sounds like it would fit the tenets from the mission statements from earlier, but what stands out to me is her point that content is secondary. Many teachers recognize that without a relationship, it's very difficult to teach any sort of content. Relationships are part of what made that road trip class so successful. Relationships are what those guest speakers are lacking. I've even heard kids specifically say, they will refuse to do work or try to learn from a teacher they don't like. So to get to content, some of these other things are having to be addressed, which adds to what teachers are already doing and are hard to measure or track. There are also a few differing views on what makes up content. Several teachers drew a line between content tied to learning and exploration and content for standardized assessments.  Rachael Esh: So just being like, hey, good job on all your hard work. We're number one for our scores again, and it's like, I don't care. And so if that's what we're celebrating, I don't really want to work here. Because that's not what's important to me. And so like, how about we celebrate this the teacher that tried a new lesson and fell on their face? Like Good job family? Because that's what we teach our kids. But do we let our teachers fail? No. So I just don't agree with it. Rachael wanted to teach in a space that allowed for teachers to experiment in their classrooms. To try things and fail, but she felt like the test scores were what her district valued. They prioritized high scores over experiences and what Rachael thought of as authentic learning.  I understand this. Getting a taste of a structure like the road trip class that allowed for authentic learning because it was exploration based makes it really hard to go back to prioritizing high scores. Rachael Esh:  I cannot stand another freakin meeting talking about. But does the standard say that? What does modeling mean? What does this mean? I don't care. I'm sorry, I don't need to break down the exact definition of a word in order to teach the general concept. And I am going to make time to teach what these kids really need to know in life, which is not that. The focus on standards hasn't always been the norm. As I said earlier, education has shifted its focus as our country's values have shifted.  And part of the confusion could have to do with modern education holding onto outdated values for   public education. Values that don't match a modern world or modern ideals. Though that may be true, teachers are still having to work in this environment that lacks clear objectives. This is stressful.  We often hear, just do what's best for kids when it feels like bureaucracy is getting heavy. But what I think is best for kids might include calling them by their chosen name, holding them accountable for their actions, pushing them to reach high expectations, or providing them with various pieces of text that give unique perspectives.  These might sound great, but for each of the examples I just listed, I have had a situation where a parent, student, administrator, or fellow teacher disagreed with me to the point that we needed to have a meeting about our perspectives. And the reality is, I can't say who is right or wrong based on our educational system, there's no clear answer. For many teachers, having to defend why, in their professional opinion, their view of education is valid, is just not worth it. And being accosted by parents or administrators or school boards gets old really quickly. Ron  talked about the lasting impact of these conflicts: Ron Ruckman: Yeah, it's scary to me still, I mean, parents, parents, I, when I have parents get in my face, I hate it even now. And most of the time, and well, like, I would say, 99% of the time parent goes away happy. And I sit there and dwell on it for the next five days, you know, and it totally wrecks my whole mental state for a long time. You know, and I just don't think parents realize, you know, they come in, and they're fired up, because they hear one story from their kid, and then they come in, and they're all fired up, and they leave and they're, they're fine. But I've, you know, it's, it's almost like, you know, you're almost traumatized by it for a little bit, you know, and that I know, that sounds dumb, but that, that is something that just kind of happens, you know, and I feel like because I like to make everybody I'm kind of a people pleaser, you know, I like everybody to be happy with me all the time.   Every teacher I know has a getting chewed out story - when a parent cornered and then screamed at them in their own classroom or demanded retribution because they refused to believe their child would ever lie to them so the teacher must be lying. These moments leave scars And this shows that even if there isn't a shared view for the purpose of education, there might be a consensus that devalues teachers making it acceptable to treat them this way.  And when it comes to making changes to keep teachers, I don't know what the answer is. But I know that valuing teachers and education would help. Because I do know that a lot of teachers that left education love teaching, but many of them didn't feel like they or their work were valued.  I also know that education is for students. So to identify what the purpose of education should be, it might be worth asking  students what they need? What do they value? Jonah Zeimens: I feel like education has lost real world application in a lot of things.  This is Jonah Zeimans. Jonah was a student of mine a few years ago. He took my college level English course, and we've stayed in contact since. Jonah is currently going to college to become an Ag teacher. He was a high achieving student. He was involved with FFA at a national level. He even spoke at graduation. And with all of these accolades, he still wishes his high school experience could have been a little different.  Jonah Zeimens: I wish it was a lot more individualized. What I don't love about our school system right now is that we're so standardized and trying to get everyone to meet the same requirements every step of the way. And I can understand maybe while students are younger, the importance of that, but once folks start figuring out what they want to do with their life a little bit more, it'd be nice to have a little bit more experimentation there. I think about this a lot going, the ag education, I would have loved to have taken more ag classes while in high school.  Jonah hit on an issue many teachers talked about in frustration with standards and standardized tests. Students value individualization. With individualization comes exploration and the ability to get excited about their futures.  Teachers love fostering this work, and if we look back to the mission statements from earlier, individualized instruction meets several of their requirements. But this is not  feasible in our current approach to education. Even if teachers want to create individualized instruction, they often run into the issue of navigating standards, or having time, or managing huge classes. But what Jonah is saying is an ideal. I would get behind a purpose of education that focused on students' individual goals, and I know of a lot of teachers that would do the same.. But a few things would have to change to make this approach feasible and not burn teachers out.  Teachers would need smaller class sizes. Building in-depth individualized learning plans for 150 students isn't practical or healthy. So if we value teacher well-being and individualized learning, education needs funding for more teachers and more facilities so classes can be smaller. That would be a start to reaching a consensus on what education  is for.  I spoke with another recent graduate about the same issues. Landon Trujillo was a wrestler of mine. I coached with his dad for several years, and when Landon graduated he gave me a picture from state wrestling. Someone caught the moment when Landon melted into my chest right after he won the state championship. The picture frame says family on it. It's on my desk as I work on this podcast. Landon didn't love the structure of school.  Landon Trujillo: Um, I'm a pretty social person. So I really liked the social aspect. And just a bunch of friends there people to talk to all the time. Some things I didn't like is like, how, by the book, everything is. 90% of teachers teach the same, in my opinion. It's just work for a grade, and then get your grades and that's pretty much it. I can see why Landon thinks education is about getting a good grade. As a teacher, this is disheartening. When working towards standards is the priority, the things that foster the joy of learning feel like they get pushed aside. Grades become more valuable than experiences or individualized instruction. These are the times when I look back to that road trip class I told you about and think about how far away I am from that wonderfully structured course. From the things I value as a teacher. From being in a setting with a shared purpose - to explore and not be assholes.  If teachers do not think what they do has purpose, it will be hard to keep them in a job. Part of what gives teachers purpose is autonomy and trust and an ability to explore authentic learning experiences. Things that everyone I spoke with values. But teachers are having to prioritize things that are considered measurable. Assessments and standards are used as tools of measurement, but the things I and many teachers value are hard to measure. I could not measure the impact that roadtrip class had on students in any tangible way, but I know it had an impact. I can't measure my relationships, and if I tried, they would feel superficial. This is why some education feels superficial, because it values measurement over authenticity. And teachers are leaving this system, but our country can keep teachers if we shift our values to what teachers and students already value, which does not include high stakes testing or standardization. Next time, we will take a look at the impact standardization and high stakes testing have on the classroom, and how this impact plays a role in teachers' decisions to leave education. Chris Rothfuss: They switched to a standards oriented approach where they were targeting competency and individual standards as their evaluative structure for student success, as opposed to a grading format. And I think that's a more sophisticated and more thoughtful approach to evaluating educational needs and educational accomplishment.   That will be next time on Those Who Can't Teach Anymore. Thank you for listening. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share episodes with everyone you can think of. This episode was produced by me, Charles Fournier. It was edited by Melodie Edwards. Other editing help came from Noa Greenspan, Sarah-Ann Leverette, and Jennica Fournier. Voice Acting by Chris and Haylee Brayton, Britni Shipman, and Ben Zoller. Our theme song is by Julian Saporiti. Road Trip songs were performed  by the Great American Roadtrip class of 2016. All other music can be found on our website. A special thanks to Elizabeth Smith, Juan Laden, Colby Gull, Allison Lash, Lauren Schumacker, Ron Ruckman, Jonah Zeimans, Landon Trujillo, Gary Martin, Caskey Russell, Jaye Wacker, Jennica Fournier, Shane Atkinson, Lindsey Freeman, Christy Chadwick, and Rachael Esh for taking time to sit down and chat with me. If you are interested in hearing more about Rachel Esh and her books, check out our instagram page @thosewhocantteachanymore to see a video of her.  This podcast is funded in part by the Fund for Teachers Fellowship.

In today's episode of Backpacker Radio presented by The Trek, we are joined by Mike Clelland. Mike is the author of one of the preeminent UL backpacking books, "Ultralight Backpackin' Tips: 153 Amazing & Inexpensive Tips For Extremely Lightweight Camping". We go through some of his top tips for getting pack weight down, how he arrived to the world of UL backpacking, his work with NOLS, his Alaskan expeditions, and much more. We also dive into Mike's fascination with the interplay of owls and UFOs which is perhaps predictably equal parts bizarre and fascinating. We wrap the show with a Triple Crown of things we don't like about Colorado, clichés that we think are total bullshit, and we get another update from MG. RTIC Outdoors: Shop at rticoutdoors.com. Gossamer Gear: Use code “backpackerradio” for 15% off at gossamergear.com.  Minus33: Use code “backpacker22” at minus33.com. Enlightened Equipment: Use code “ultralight10” for 10% off Enlightened Equipment's Stock Revelation Quilt or Torrid Jacket at enlightenedequipment.com. [divider] Interview with Mike Clelland Mike's Website Mike's Instagram Time stamps & Questions 00:04:47 - QOTD: What is a cliche you think is total bullshit? 00:07:17 - Reminders: support the Blue Sky Fund and subscribe to Backpacker Radio! 00:08:57 - Introducing Mike 00:11:02 - When did you get into illustration and cartoons? 00:13:51 - What was your favorite toy to draw advertisements for? 00:16:29 - Was your job anything like Mad Men? 00:21:05 - How did you get into backpacking? 00:28:56 - What was your backpacking experience prior to working at NOLS? 00:30:31 - Were you apprehensive about switching to ultralight gear? 00:32:16 - What are some of the key differences between Lighten Up! and Ultralight Backpackin' Tips? 00:37:35 - Tip #3: Scrutinize Everything 00:41:40 - Tip #6: Try Something New Every Time You Go Camping? 00:46:44 - What's a recent example of something you've tweaked in your setup? 00:48:24 - How important is it for someone to have DIY skills? 00:50:56 - Tip #9: Cut Stuff Off Your Gear 00:58:07 - Why should someone go ultralight? 01:05:30 - Tip #25: Appreciate the Wilderness 01:08:17 - Tip #30: Is going ultralight more expensive? 01:11:22 - Do you scrutinize your food as much as your gear? 01:16:31 - Tip #55: Prepare a Simple First Aid Kit 01:20:44 - What's your take on torso length sleeping pads? 01:24:08 - You say a backpack can be as light as 3 ounces?! 01:26:22 - Tip #65: Choose Bold Routes 01:29:01 - Tip #100: The Humble Pillow 01:31:15 - Tip #116: Poop 01:40:44 - What are some of your favorite and least favorite natural wiping devices? 01:49:30 - Talk to us about UFOs and owls. 01:59:17 - What is hypnotic regression? 02:03:02 - Do you think these are ghost, alien, or other paranormal experiences? 02:04:45 - What percent of owls do you consider suspicious?  02:10:00 - Should we be suspicious of owls? 02:11:48 - Mike's newest owl stories 02:17:28 - Are certain types of owls more suspicious than others? 02:22:07 - Where can people go to learn more? SEGMENTS MG Check-In Send Us Your Owl Stories Leave us a voicemail Email us at podcast@thetrek.co Write us a 5 Star Review Trek Propaganda Wind River High Route Trip Report Part 1: Photographic Route Description by Kelly Floro Triple Crown of things we don't like about Colorado 5 Star Review [divider] Check out our sound guy @headnodculture. Subscribe to this podcast on iTunes (and please leave us a review)!  Find us on Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Play. Support us on Patreon to get bonus content. Advertise on Backpacker Radio Follow The Trek, Chaunce, Badger, and Trail Correspondents on Instagram. Follow The Trek and Chaunce on YouTube. Follow Backpacker Radio on Tik Tok.  A super big thank you to our Chuck Norris Award winner(s) from Patreon: Andrew, Austen McDaniel, Jason Lawrence, Christopher Marshburn, Sawyer Products, Brad and Blair (Thirteen Adventures), Patrick Cianciolo, Paul Packman Sealy, Matt Soukup, Jason Snailer, Greg Mac,  Tracy “Trigger” Fawns, Mike Poisel, and Kristina Diaz. A big thank you to our Cinnamon Connection Champions from Patreon: Liz Seger, Cynthia Voth, Emily Brown, Dcnerdlet, Jeff LaFranier, Peter Ellenberg, Jacob Northrup, Peter Leven.

In today's episode of Backpacker Radio presented by The Trek, we are joined by Wyn Wiley, better known online as Pattie Gonia. Pattie is a "professional homosexual", environmentalist, and a drag queen. This conversation is fun and informative. We go deep learning all the fun nuances of the drag world, including what goes into a good tuck (who owns the title for the GOAT of tucking), the best drag songs, and the core components of a good drag performance. Pattie shares all the good work she's is doing with various outdoor organizations to improve representation in the outdoors. And of course we get a run down of what goes into being ultra-athletic in high heel boots. We close the show with a triple crown of awkward places to run into an ex, a Q&A segment, and we cover if thru-hiking the PCT can give you a dumptruck ass. Gossamer Gear: Use code “backpackerradio” for 15% off at gossamergear.com.  Organifi: Use code “backpacker” for 20% off at organifi.com/backpacker. Enlightened Equipment: Use code “ultralight10” for 10% off Enlightened Equipment's Stock Revelation Quilt or Torrid Jacket at enlightenedequipment.com. Interview with Wyn Wiley aka Pattie Gonia Pattie's Instagram The Outdoorist Oath Website The Outdoorist Oath Instagram Queer Outdoor and Environmental Job Board Austin Smith Instagram Time stamps & Questions 00:04:56 - QOTD: What's the easiest meal of the day to eat healthfully? 00:10:39 - Reminder: Apply to be a 2023 Trek Blogger 00:11:34 - Introducing Wyn! 00:13:05 - Who is Wyn Wiley? 00:15:26 - How did you become Pattie Gonia? 00:17:40 - Were you always openly queer? 00:19:23 - Who put boundaries on you as a kid? 00:22:10 - How do you run in high heels? 00:24:20 - What were you thinking when you posted some of your first viral videos? 00:27:22 - Were some people okay with you being gay but not with your wearing heels? 00:29:26 - Can you explain Wyn and Pattie's different pronouns? 00:31:40 - What's a good protocol for knowing when to ask someone their preferred pronouns? 00:33:36 - Discussion about being Pattie versus Wyn 00:35:10 - What's the most difficult physical endeavor you've done in heels? 00:36:14 - Discussion about tucking 00:41:45 - Tell us about your hiking clothes. 00:42:48 - Do you have any tips for hiking in heels? 00:44:42 - Do you have any good eating shit stories from hiking in heels? 00:45:41 - Tell us about your recent event with the North Face. 00:48:29 - How can businesses be better allies? 00:50:34 - How can businesses move into the advocacy space? 00:52:31 - Do you want to give any particular people a shoutout? 00:54:09 - Have you had experiences where brands have approached you the wrong way? 00:55:48 - What were some of the biggest lessons you learned? 00:57:18 - What do you recommend for people looking to join queer outdoor communities? 00:59:07 - What does into a 10/10 drag performance? 01:03:42 - If you're stranded on drag island, what 3 songs do you bring for your performance? 01:05:25 - If you were to make a drag starter pack, what would be in it? 01:06:28 - What is your go-to hiking snack? 01:11:18 - Do you feel like the thru-hiking community better accepts the queer community? 01:15:35 - How do you think you can bring more straight, white men to allyship? 01:17:01 - Do you see any backlash for caring about hair and makeup in the outdoors? 01:20:10 - Tell us about your makeup process. 01:22:09 - If you could pick only 3 pieces of makeup, what would you choose? 01:22:50 - Tell us about the plastics crisis work you did in Hawaii. 01:27:50 - Tell us about your organization, the Outdoorist Oath. 01:28:56 - What are the first projects your organization is starting with? 01:30:32 - Can you tell us about calling out NOLS? 01:37:29 - What should companies prioritize to do better by communities? 01:40:03 - Where can people go to keep up with you? SEGMENTS Trek Propaganda Hiker Dies After Being Found Unresponsive on Mt. Washington by Penina Satlow Triple Crown of awkward places to bump into an ex Instagram Q&A Mail Bag 5 Star Review [divider] Check out our sound guy @Paulybooyshallcross. Subscribe to this podcast on iTunes (and please leave us a review)!  Find us on Spotify, Stitcher, and Google Play. Support us on Patreon to get bonus content. Advertise on Backpacker Radio Follow The Trek, Chaunce, Badger, and Trail Correspondents on Instagram. Follow The Trek and Chaunce on YouTube. Follow Backpacker Radio on Tik Tok.  A super big thank you to our Chuck Norris Award winner(s) from Patreon: Andrew, Austen McDaniel, Jason Lawrence, Christopher Marshburn, Sawyer Products, Brad and Blair (Thirteen Adventures), Patrick Cianciolo, Paul Packman Sealy, Matt Soukup, Jason Snailer, Greg Mac,  Tracy “Trigger” Fawns, Mike Poisel, and Kristina Diaz. A big thank you to our Cinnamon Connection Champions from Patreon: Liz Seger, Cynthia Voth, Emily Brown, Dcnerdlet, Jeff LaFranier, Peter Ellenberg, Jacob Northrup, Peter Leven.