Podcasts about Haskell

Wine Pairings with your Easter meal. What goes well with a leg of lamb? What goes well with ham? Varieties of Bordeaux wine and the range of prices available. What makes German wine unique? For more information, and to check out some of the incredible selections Ted and the team at Haskell's has to offer, visit Haskells.com.

En un lugar único de Norteamérica, se encuentra la icónica Biblioteca Haskell. El sitio es conocido por su curiosa ubicación: justo en la frontera que divide a Stanstead (Canadá) de Derby Line ( EE. UU.). Hasta ahora, un acuerdo permitía a los canadienses usar un tramo de pavimento del lado estadounidense para acceder a la biblioteca. Sin embargo, tras la controvertida visita de la secretaria de Seguridad Nacional, Kristi Noem, en enero, Estados Unidos puso fin a dicho pacto.

Kicking off the Wonder series, Ryan Haskell shares his approach to teaching Elm, his gap year adventures, and his current work at Brilliant. He gives insights into creating accessible learning materials, building games, and finding inspiration outside the Elm ecosystem.Thanks to our sponsor, Logistically. Email: elmtown@logisticallyinc.com.Music by Jesse Moore.Edited by Toni Cañete.Recording date: 2024.11.27GuestRyan HaskellShow notes[00:00:21] Sponsored by Logistically[00:00:43] Introductionryan.townWelcome to Elm! YouTube seriesElm Town 62 – The Map to Elm LandElm Landryan-haskell/date-format[00:01:34] Gap Year[00:03:31] Building a game in GodotTurbo Champ[00:11:01] Welcome to Elm YouTube SeriesRichard Feldman's "Teaching Elm to Beginners" (elm-conf 2017)[00:17:06] Teaching style"Parentheses are like hugs" - from Section 1.5 Advanced Functions[00:24:52] From Wolfgang: Finding inspirationInspiration for Vendr's elm-gql from watching Ben Awad's videos[00:29:07] Remaking Ryan's website[00:32:41] Working at BrilliantBrilliantElm Town 57 – Brilliant ways to use Elm with Aaron StrickRed Blob Games[00:39:15] PicksRyan's picksDracula by Bram StokerThe Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar WildeVite 6.0The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (N64)Horizon Zero DawnSatisfactoryJared's picksSatisfactory Night Fever by Dan BullRichard Feldman's "Teaching Elm to Beginners" (elm-conf 2017)Frontend Masters Elm courses by Richard FeldmanIntroduction to Elm, v2Advanced ElmElm in Action by Richard Feldman (Manning)Welcome to Elm! YouTube series

There is a new 6 for $60 deal at Haskell's. Ted shares the details of the variety of wine that will be included in this latest promotion and how they can best be enjoyed. For more information, and to check out some of the incredible selections Ted and the team at Haskell's has to offer, visit Haskells.com.

Welcome to the world of Hexagonia 01. [CONTROL ALT DELETE] T & Sugah X CONTROL ALT DΞLΞTΞ Ft. Kriss Kiss - The Formula02. Karim Naas & Caitlyn Scarlett - Floor03. James Starck - After The Party04. Goshfather - I'll Come Running05. Jonasu & Tobtok - IYWML06. Ivan Lake - Take It07. Floris Van Oranje - More Life08. Haskell, Rion S, Maitland - Work09. Jordan Peak - Bring The Funk Back10. Honey & Badger - Gospel Tool (Where You Are)11. [DEMODAY TRACK] Benix - SAVE ME12. Anyma - Work ft. Yeat13. Hollaphonic X Mauro Venti - To The Top14. Dennis Reif - Don't Stop15. Breaking Beattz - Mini Skirt16. Emmit Fenn - BATHROOM17. Martin Ikin, Sian-Lee - Count On You18. [FUTURE] Aitor Hertz - All Of Me19. [CHILL TIME] Finley Brückner & Courtney Storm - What A Feeling

On today's Labor Radio Podcast Daily: Heartland Labor Forum on how Trump's funding cuts crippled Haskell U; IWW unionizes crew of the world's largest ship; Naomi Wolf quote @Heartland_Labor @wpfwdc @AFLCIO #1u #UnionStrong #LaborRadioPod Proud founding member of the Labor Radio Podcast Network

Fredrik och Kristoffer snackar livskraftig körning (durable execution), deterministiskt simuleringstestande, och lite om Roc. Kristoffer ger sin ögonblicksbild av livskraftig körning och relaterade saker han just nu snöat in på. Mycket kretsar kring stiliga och kraftfulla abstraktioner som leder fram till renare och enklare lösningar på kniviga problem. Tänk om du kunde stödja både synkron och asynkron körning av all din kod, utan att behöva skriva någonting som hanterar det i din kod? Landar vi i Haskell? Eller till och med Lisp? Ett stort tack till Cloudnet som sponsrar vår VPS! Har du kommentarer, frågor eller tips? Vi är @kodsnack, @thieta, @krig, och @bjoreman på Mastodon, har en sida på Facebook och epostas på info@kodsnack.se om du vill skriva längre. Vi läser allt som skickas. Gillar du Kodsnack får du hemskt gärna recensera oss i iTunes! Du kan också stödja podden genom att ge oss en kaffe (eller två!) på Ko-fi, eller handla något i vår butik. Länkar Hydropress Vattenläckan i Jönköping Roc Anders från Modermodemet Kristoffers gästspel i Modermodemet Durable execution Sidekiq Temporal Worker i Temporal Cronjob Idempotent - när något kan göras flera gånger utan att förändra resultatet (ett tryck på “på”-knappen har samma effekt som tio tryck) Rena funktioner i funktionell programmering DST - deterministisk simuleringstestning Video om DST Distributed asynchronous await - a new programming model for distributed applications - video från Tigerbeetle Tigerbeetle Zig Viewstamped replication Konsensus Paxos - algoritmen och dess paper med grekiska filosofer Paxos - ön Leslie Lamport Raft - “designed to be understandable and durable” Kubernetes IO-monaden i Haskell Stöd oss via Ko-fi! Andrew Kelley Andrew Kelleys liveström om async-await i Zig Tokio Task i Roc är deprekerat, och de har redan städat bort dokumentationen Plattformar i Roc YAML Richard Feldman Deno Ryan Dahl Durable functions Resonate Flawless (Rust) Lat evaluering Lisp call-with-current-continuation i Lisp (Scheme för att vara exakt) Dominik Tornow, skapare av Temporal Titlar Allting går sönder, konstant Allting förfaller och växer över och möglar Krossad av en hydropress Ur bandet En separat process På ett hållbart sätt Sov i en dag Bara som att köra kod Kraschar och kommer tillbaka Om man är en konsensusnörd Somna och vakna igen Raft är Paxos Pedagogiska animationer Det här är ögonblicksbilden En tidsstämpel och en bild av världen Rätt programmeringsmodell En allokerare Den globala soptippen Vår egen soptunna Det här är rätt abstraktion Idén med IO-monaden Rätt abstraktionsnivå Gentlemannaöverenskommelse

The Spring Wine Sale is happening now at Haskell's. Celebrating warm weather with specialty picked wine selections. Ted talks about the range of wines and liquor that can be bought at a great value this season. For more information, and to check out some of the incredible selections Ted and the team at Haskell's has to offer, visit Haskells.com.

LD Interviews ~ April 03, 2025In this episode of Liberty Dispatch, host Andrew DeBartolo is joined by professor Dr. David M. Haskell to kick off our 4-part series on the current Canadian and American relations by discussing possible scenarios for a CanAm merger. Who would it benefit? How could it happen? Tune in to hear a riveting discussion. For access to the full conversation, including the discussion on Canada's problem with fake "con"servatives, become a paid subscriber over at our Substack: https://ldcanada.substack.com/; Episode Resources: "Invite Canada's Conservatives to Join America"| American Conservative: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/invite-canadas-conservatives-to-join-america/; Prof. Haskell's X Account: https://x.com/dmillardhaskell?lang=en; Prof. Haskell's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@davidm.haskell1530/videos; SHOW SPONSORS:Invest with Rocklinc: info@rocklinc.com or call them at 905-631-546; Diversify Your Money with Bull Bitcoin: https://mission.bullbitcoin.com/dispatch;BarterPay: https://barterpay.ca/; Barter It: https://www.barterit.ca/;Get freedom from Censorious CRMs by signing up for SalesNexus: https://www.salesnexus.com/;PLEXUS Worldwide: Reboot your health today! email them @ healthandliberty@proton.me or go to http://plexusworldwide.ca/healthandliberty; SUBSCRIBE TO OUR SHOWS/CHANNELS:LIBERTY DISPATCH PODCAST: https://libertydispatch.podbean.com; https://rumble.com/LDshow; CONTACT US: libertydispatch@pm.me STAY UP-TO-DATE ON ALL THINGS LD:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/liberty_dispatch/; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LibertyDispatchCanada; X: @LDCanada - https://x.com/_LDCanada; Rumble: https://rumble.com/LDshow; YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@libertydispatch Please LIKE, SUBSCRIBE, RATE, & REVIEW, and SHARE it with others!

LD Interviews ~ April 03, 2025 In this episode of Liberty Dispatch, host Andrew DeBartolo is joined by professor Dr. David M. Haskell to kick off our 4-part series on the current Canadian and American relations by discussing possible scenarios for a CanAm merger. Who would it benefit? How could it happen? Tune in to hear a riveting discussion. For access to the full conversation, including the discussion on Canada's problem with fake "con"servatives, become a paid subscriber over at our Substack: https://ldcanada.substack.com/;  Episode Resources: "Invite Canada's Conservatives to Join America"| American Conservative: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/invite-canadas-conservatives-to-join-america/;  Prof. Haskell's X Account: https://x.com/dmillardhaskell?lang=en; Prof. Haskell's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@davidm.haskell1530/videos; SHOW SPONSORS: Invest with Rocklinc: info@rocklinc.com or call them at 905-631-546; Diversify Your Money with Bull Bitcoin: https://mission.bullbitcoin.com/dispatch; BarterPay: https://barterpay.ca/; Barter It: https://www.barterit.ca/; Get freedom from Censorious CRMs by signing up for SalesNexus: https://www.salesnexus.com/; PLEXUS Worldwide: Reboot your health today! email them @ healthandliberty@proton.me or go to http://plexusworldwide.ca/healthandliberty; SUBSCRIBE TO OUR SHOWS/CHANNELS: LIBERTY DISPATCH PODCAST: https://libertydispatch.podbean.com; https://rumble.com/LDshow; CONTACT US: libertydispatch@pm.me STAY UP-TO-DATE ON ALL THINGS LD: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/liberty_dispatch/; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LibertyDispatchCanada; X: @LDCanada - https://x.com/_LDCanada; Rumble: https://rumble.com/LDshow; YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@libertydispatch Please LIKE, SUBSCRIBE, RATE, & REVIEW, and SHARE it with others!

1. Tobtok, Shiftbach & ProdbyAtria - Hold U Closer (Extended Mix) 2. KAIN ft. Dani King - Buttons (Extended Mix) 3. Fede Reno - Peppa (Extended Mix) 4. HASKELL ft. David LeSal - Love Dealer (Radio Mix) 5. Funkin Matt - Perfect Dark (Extended Mix) 6. Honey & Badger - Gospel Tool (Where You Are) (Extended Mix) 7. Hard Reset - Party ASAP (Original Mix) 8. Good Times Ahead x Steve Aoki - Accelerator (Extended Mix) 9. Dannic - Kick It (Extended Mix) 10. Relanium & Deen West, KOMA - Clash Buzz (Extended Mix) 11. Fahjah - Rave Shake (Extended Mix) 12. Fahjah - Take Me High (Extended Mix) 13. Bingo Players x Akon - Rattle (Pickle Remix) vs Smack That (ATK Mashup) 14. Gigi D'Agostino - Bla Bla Bla (Fahjah x Jesyka Remix) 15. Fahjah - Dance To The Beat (Original Mix) 16. Gusted, Tayk - Party Starter Tool (Original Mix) 17. Quavo & Lenny Kravitz - Fly (KIDCEE Remix) 18. Ben Derris - Crazy In Love (Original Mix) 19. The Grooveaholics - Wake Up The Funk (Ragel Mood Remix) 20. Tomich - Get Hype (Original Mix) 21. Suavē & GOONTER - Clean Job (Original Mix) 22. Ida Corr, Fedde Le Grand - Let Me Think About It (2HOT2PLAY Edit) 23. Alan Walker - Broken Angel (Loozebone & Castle J Remix)

Edición #1281 del paraíso del house de la FM mezclado y presentado por Diego Castillo aka 4DELUXE con novedades de 22Bullets, Aaron Smith, Alex Preston, CeCe Peniston bajo el remix de Stuart Ojelay, DJ Susan & Miggy Dela Rosa, Elysian vs Kryder bajo el remix de B Jones, Flashmob & YellowSix, HASKELL, Marvin Sykes, Nightfunk, Rafa Barrios, Resa Dadash, This Culture y Tori Amos bajo el remix de Stuart Ojelay.

Assessing the state of the alcohol industry. Keeping up with the changing market and trends. The impact that could come with incoming tariffs on imported alcohol and some domestic options to consider. Haskell's is preparing for whatever changes may be ahead. For more information, and to check out some of the incredible selections Ted and the team at Haskell's has to offer, visit Haskells.com.

Reno local Eric Haskell, the founder and CEO of Sagebrush Energy, let's us in on the Reno solar industry and what to do besides hanging out with the brains of the solar industry at the big NABCEP conference in Reno. They cover everything from the booming clean tech scene and solar power in Reno to wild horses and must-visit spots around the city, including the battery Megafactory. Eric shares insightful details about the local solar market, the benefits of Nevada's legislative changes, and even his experiences with international companies like PopSockets and Allbirds. Whether you're attending the conference or simply curious about renewable energy and modern tech in Reno, this episode is packed with valuable information and engaging stories that you won't want to miss! Topics covered: NABCEP Conference Sagebrush Energy www.sagebrushenergy.com Burning Man Solar in RenoEV = Electric Vehicle Tesla Giga Factory Lithium Mine in Nevada Zero State Income Tax Tesla Semi Truck Battery Recycling Red Wood Materials Lithium Mining Solar in RenoCasinos Must-visit Spots of Reno Marriage and Divorce in Reno Elvis Wedding GSR = Grand Sierra Resort Outdoor Activities in Reno Sagebrush Energy Residential Solar Market Net Metering and Time of Use ESS = Energy Storage System Wildfire Risk in Reno PG&E = Pacific Gas and Electric Company Battery Attach Rate in RenoBatteries Wild Horses in Reno Nevada PopSockets Riley Neugebauer of Solar for Women www.solarforwomen.com (listen to her podcast here too) Allbirds California and Nevada SNEC Intersolar in Munich Battle Born Batteries Climate Change Senate Bill 293 Residential SolarDoor to Door Sales New Mission of NorCal SolarSolar Coaster Solar Sales and Install Sagebrush Financial www.sagebrushfinancial.com Reach out Eric Haskell here: Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/erick-haskell Website: www.sagebrushenergy.com Sagebrush Financing: www.sagebrushfinancial.com Learn more at www.solarSEAN.com and be sure to get NABCEP certified by taking Sean's classes at www.heatspring.com/sean  

Tracklisting:1: Jewel Kid & Mosimann - Wanna Miami (Extended Mix)2: Travis Scott - FE!N (feat. Playboi Carti) (Mosimann Remix)3: Mosimann - ID4: Linska - Bad Boy (GENESI Extended Remix)5: Nirvana Smells Like Teen Spirit (Mosimann Remix)6: ROSÉ & Bruno Mars - APT. (Mosimann Remix)7: Technotronic - Pump Up The Jam (Mosimann Remix)8: Bessey - Alert (Extended Mix)9: Jay Robinson, Scrufizzer - PRT (Extended Mix)10: GALA - Freed From Desire (Mosimann Remix)11: Billie Eilish - LUNCH (Mosimann Remix)12: Bob Sinclar Feat. Michael Ekow - Take It Easy On Me (Mosimann Remix)13: James Hurr - You Get Down (Extended Mix)14: Austin Millz VS Alex Culross - Kanye's Logic (Mosimann Edit)15: Marshall Jefferson - Move Your Body (Mosimann Remix)16: Kendrick Lamar - Not Like Us (Mosimann Remix)17: Cloonee, Young M.A & InntRaw - Stephanie (HNTR Extended Remix)18: Paul Johnson - Feel My M.F (Mosimann Remix)19: Fjaak - Turn It Up

Tracklisting:1: Tony Romera, Crusy, Low Steppa - Watch Out2: Haskell, Tough Love - Like This3: CASSIMM - Valerie4: Biscits - Freak5: Marlon Hoffstadt - It's That Time (FISHER Remix)6: Prunk - Heat (Hot Since 82 Mix)7: Matt Sassari, SIDEPIECE - Elektro8: Haskell - Love Dealer9: Martin Ikin, Matroda, Sian-Lee - 4U10: VENGA - Shake It11: Haskell - ID12: Riordan - Gimme13: James Hurr - You Get Down14: Haskell - Deeper15: Gorgon City - 5am At Bagleys

A new 6 for $60 deal is back at Haskell's. Ted Farrell talks about what shoppers will find in this box and is adding some special white and rosé varieties as we get ready for spring. For more information, and to check out some of the incredible selections Ted and the team at Haskell's has to offer, visit Haskells.com

With municipal bond exemptions potentially endangered and credit risks on the horizon, some may consider this to be a transformational time in the muni market. This month we welcome Patrick Haskell, managing director and head of the Municipal Bond Group at BlackRock, to discuss why he thinks it's a “generational opportunity to capture income” within the muni market. In this Masters of the Muniverse podcast, hosts and Bloomberg Intelligence analysts Eric Kazatsky and Karen Altamirano talk with Haskell about the opportunities in high yield, the rise of active ETFs and the outlook for munis amid the backdrop of tax-policy uncertainties.

As we get ready to celebrate St. Patrick's Day, Ted Farrell talks about the history of Irish beer and whiskey and all the varieties that can be found at Haskell's. For more information, and to check out some of the incredible selections Ted and the team at Haskell's has to offer, visit Haskells.com

Haskell Indian Nations University in Lawrence saw dozens of its employees laid off under the Trump administration's mass cuts. That includes their women's basketball coach, Adam Strom, who's kept coaching as a volunteer to lead the team to the NAIA tournament.

Лямбда исчисление — база! Или нет? Разбираемся в новом выпуске с Виталием Брагилевским! Как лямбда исчисление появилось и почему эта формальная система так мощна и изящна? Как связаны между собой Чёрч и Тьюринг? И как в конце-концов труды Чёрча повлияли на Lisp, Haskell, и другие функциональные языки? История, математика, теория языков программирования и щепоточка отборного юмора — скорее включайте новый выпуск, чтобы насладиться всем и сразу! Партнёр эпизода — компания YADRO. YADRO — это крупнейшая технологическая компания, которая создает фундаментальные для российского рынка продукты, начиная от серверов, и заканчивая собственной базовой станцией. Большое инженерное сообщество, амбициозные задачи, возможность напрямую влиять на развитие продукта — это то, что ждёт тебя в YADRO! Карьерный портал: https://clck.ru/3HEn9p Портал "Истовый инженер": https://clck.ru/3HEnDx Реклама. ООО «КНС ГРУПП», ИНН: 7701411241, erid: 2SDnjcgKPX2 Также ждем вас, ваши лайки, репосты и комменты в мессенджерах и соцсетях!
 Telegram-чат: https://t.me/podlodka Telegram-канал: https://t.me/podlodkanews Страница в Facebook: www.facebook.com/podlodkacast/ Twitter-аккаунт: https://twitter.com/PodlodkaPodcast Ведущие в выпуске: Евгений Кателла, Катя Петрова

Elements Within - 1030AM

Elements Within - 830AM

Haskell Indian Nations University women's basketball coach Adam Strom learned he would be laid off in February due to the Trump Administration's federal workforce cuts. He's kept coaching as a volunteer since, leading the team to a conference championship and an NAIA tournament berth.

This morning we tapped into what the “Gold Coast” has to offer for wine as Ted talked about some of the great Australian wines to choose from at Haskell's! For the best selection in wine, spirits and more check out any one of the 11 locations around the Twin Cities metro area or visit haskells.com.

A flurry of bills filed in the first months of the legislative session could reverse state tolling policies that have been in place for decades, an acknowledgment by a growing number of legislators that Texas may have gone too far in its expansion of toll roads. In other news, Last Energy plans to plant 30 micronuclear facilities in Haskell County, as energy companies move to address the voracious power needs of data centers fueling the artificial intelligence boom. The nuclear technology startup announced Friday that it plans to break ground at a 200-acre site in Haskell, a town nearly 180 miles west of Dallas; a panel discussion hosted by the Dallas Morning News in partnership with the nonprofit For Oak Cliff highlighted life and loss in Dallas. The event, which came after a year of reporting and more than 100 stories as part of The Dallas Morning News' “Life and Loss in Dallas” series, sought to be a place for the paper to hear directly from readers and community leaders about homicide, crime solutions and how its coverage can better tell victims' stories; and the Dallas Cowboys are in discussions with Micah Parsons and defensive tackle Osa Odighizuwa about contract extensions. The Cowboys may apply the franchise tag on Odighizuwa. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In honor of the Oscars, Ted Farrell awards some of the finest wines that are found at Haskell's. Which won the best taste? Which won the best value? Which won wine of the year? For more information, and to check out some of the incredible selections Ted and the team at Haskell's has to offer, visit Haskells.com

It is everyone's favorite day - ‘Open that Bottle' Day according to our very own Ted Ferrell. He joins this morning to talk about this annual tradition. We discuss the various aspects of aging wine and proper storage and conservation of taste when it comes to some of your favorite selections of wine! To find some of the best selections available check out one of 11 Haskell's locations in and around the Twin Cities or visit haskells.com!

Most founders dream of selling their company—but what happens when you sell and still have to run the business? Justin Haskell, CEO and founder of Maximum Senior Benefits, shares his journey from struggling entrepreneur to building a nationwide business and selling a majority stake. Tune in to hear: How Justin went from seeing sales as a necessary evil to realizing it's the foundation of every successful business. Why knowing how your customers actually want to engage with you is the key to building trust and lasting relationships. Why selling a business doesn't mean instant freedom and why staying on as CEO and reporting to a parent company was a bigger adjustment than expected. -- The Midnight Founders Podcast is powered by RevRoad and CB Vault. 

It's cold out there! Here's a look at our top local stories for Wednesday, February 19, 2025. Find the complete articles and much more in today's paper and our website, www.iolaregister.com. Thank you for listening local!

The free livestreams for AI Engineer Summit are now up! Please hit the bell to help us appease the algo gods. We're also announcing a special Online Track later today.Today's Deep Research episode is our last in our series of AIE Summit preview podcasts - thanks for following along with our OpenAI, Portkey, Pydantic, Bee, and Bret Taylor episodes, and we hope you enjoy the Summit! Catch you on livestream.Everybody's going deep now. Deep Work. Deep Learning. DeepMind. If 2025 is the Year of Agents, then the 2020s are the Decade of Deep.While “LLM-powered Search” is as old as Perplexity and SearchGPT, and open source projects like GPTResearcher and clones like OpenDeepResearch exist, the difference with “Deep Research” products is they are both “agentic” (loosely meaning that an LLM decides the next step in a workflow, usually involving tools) and bundling custom-tuned frontier models (custom tuned o3 and Gemini 1.5 Flash).The reception to OpenAI's Deep Research agent has been nothing short of breathless:"Deep Research is the best public-facing AI product Google has ever released. It's like having a college-educated researcher in your pocket." - Jason Calacanis“I have had [Deep Research] write a number of ten-page papers for me, each of them outstanding. I think of the quality as comparable to having a good PhD-level research assistant, and sending that person away with a task for a week or two, or maybe more. Except Deep Research does the work in five or six minutes.” - Tyler Cowen“Deep Research is one of the best bargains in technology.” - Ben Thompson“my very approximate vibe is that it can do a single-digit percentage of all economically valuable tasks in the world, which is a wild milestone.” - sama“Using Deep Research over the past few weeks has been my own personal AGI moment. It takes 10 mins to generate accurate and thorough competitive and market research (with sources) that previously used to take me at least 3 hours.” - OAI employee“It's like a bazooka for the curious mind” - Dan Shipper“Deep research can be seen as a new interface for the internet, in addition to being an incredible agent… This paradigm will be so powerful that in the future, navigating the internet manually via a browser will be "old-school", like performing arithmetic calculations by hand.” - Jason Wei“One notable characteristic of Deep Research is its extreme patience. I think this is rapidly approaching “superhuman patience”. One realization working on this project was that intelligence and patience go really well together.” - HyungWon“I asked it to write a reference Interaction Calculus evaluator in Haskell. A few exchanges later, it gave me a complete file, including a parser, an evaluator, O(1) interactions and everything. The file compiled, and worked on my test inputs. There are some minor issues, but it is mostly correct. So, in about 30 minutes, o3 performed a job that would take me a day or so.” - Victor Taelin“Can confirm OpenAI Deep Research is quite strong. In a few minutes it did what used to take a dozen hours. The implications to knowledge work is going to be quite profound when you just ask an AI Agent to perform full tasks for you and come back with a finished result.” - Aaron Levie“Deep Research is genuinely useful” - Gary MarcusWith the advent of “Deep Research” agents, we are now routinely asking models to go through 100+ websites and generate in-depth reports on any topic. The Deep Research revolution has hit the AI scene in the last 2 weeks: * Dec 11th: Gemini Deep Research (today's guest!) rolls out with Gemini Advanced* Feb 2nd: OpenAI releases Deep Research* Feb 3rd: a dozen “Open Deep Research” clones launch* Feb 5th: Gemini 2.0 Flash GA* Feb 15th: Perplexity launches Deep Research * Feb 17th: xAI launches Deep SearchIn today's episode, we welcome Aarush Selvan and Mukund Sridhar, the lead PM and tech lead for Gemini Deep Research, the originators of the entire category. We asked detailed questions from inspiration to implementation, why they had to finetune a special model for it instead of using the standard Gemini model, how to run evals for them, and how to think about the distribution of use cases. (We also have an upcoming Gemini 2 episode with our returning first guest Logan Kilpatrick so stay tuned

A new 6 for $60 deal is being announced. The variety of wines assembled in a 6 pack that have been selected. Their history and taste as well as what pairs well with them. For more information and to check out some of the incredible selections Ted and the team at Haskell's has to offer - visit Haskell's.com

It's a tremendous honor for me to share my podcast with Olympic legend and humanitarian, Billy Mills.  Billy Mills was born in 1938 and grew up on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota, home to the Oglala Lakota Nation. Billy had a very difficult childhood, losing his mother, sister, and father by the age of 12. He turned to running as both an escape and a source of discipline. After his father's passing, Billy attended the Haskell Institute, a U.S. government run boarding school for Native American children. Schools like Haskell were controversial for their forced assimilation, physical and emotional abuse, and systematically trying to erase their students Indigenous identities. Billy, though, had a positive experience at Haskell, where he met his coach Tony Coffin, who became somewhat of a father figure to him. Coffin recognized Billy's talent and helped nurture his running abilities, providing him with the foundation that would later lead to his collegiate and Olympic success. Also, during his time at Haskell, Billy spent one of his summers as a counselor at Camp Greylock in Beckett, Massachusetts, which is the summer camp that I went to many years later and is a very important part of my life. So it's very special for me to share this link with Billy. At Haskell, Billy won multiple state championships in track and cross country, earning him a scholarship to the University of Kansas, where Billy would be coached by Bill Easton. Easton was a highly respected track and field coach who led Kansas to multiple NCAA championships, and at Kansas, Billy was one of the best distance runners in the country. He was a three time All American, won multiple Big Eight titles, and was runner up in the 1960 cross country championships. Through all of this, however, Billy faced numerous challenges, including discrimination at every level, including from Easton, hypoglycemia, and struggles with self doubt. At times, Billy even contemplated suicide, and in his senior year, he walked off the track and quit the team completely. Fortunately for Billy, the University of Kansas is also where he met and began dating a young woman named Patricia Pat Collins. Pat played a crucial role in Billy's journey, supporting him through the challenges he faced as an athlete and as a Native American navigating the world of elite sports. After graduating Kansas, Billy married Pat, joined the U. S. Marine Corps, and resumed training with the goal of not just making the U. S. Olympic team and not just winning a medal, but winning the gold medal in the 10K. Which he did. In 1964, Billy qualified for the Tokyo Olympics in the 10, 000 meter race, where he stunned the world with a historic, come from behind victory, becoming the first and still the only American, or even the only person from the Western Hemisphere, to win the gold medal in the event. He also remains the only Native American, other than Jim Thorpe, to win a gold medal in the Olympics. His triumph is considered one of the greatest Olympic upsets and victories of all time. Since Billy's victory in the 1964 Tokyo Games, Billy and Pat have dedicated their lives to giving back, co founding Running Strong for American Indian Youth, an organization that empowers Indigenous communities through health, education, and self sufficiency programs. Their journey is one of perseverance, cultural pride, and spreading a message of unity through diversity. All values that are very much at the heart of the Charity Miles community. Which naturally, is why we want to also thank our partners at Brooks Running who are very much champions for these values as well. For over a century, Brooks has been propelled by a never-ending curiosity with how humans move. It drives their every decision and every innovation. Because they believe movement is the key to feeling more alive. And we're all moving towards something. It could be the top of a mountain, a first-ever 5K,  peace of mind after a stressful day, or an Olympic gold medal.  It could be a cure for Parkinson's, a cleaner planet, fair play, or the strength that comes from our diversity. So… let's run there. With gear and experiences specifically designed to take you to that place. Whether it's a headspace, a feeling, or a finish line. Let's run there. Head to BrooksRunning.com to learn more. Chapters: 00:00 - The Historic 1964 Olympic 10K Final 02:14 - Introducing Billy Mills: A Story of Resilience 06:12 - Billy's Early Life on Pine Ridge Reservation 13:06 - The Impact of Haskell Indian School 24:16 - Overcoming Struggles in College and the Marines 32:24 - The Journey to the Tokyo Olympics 35:55 - The Epic 10,000-Meter Race 42:54 - Winning Gold: A Dream Fulfilled 50:26 - Giving Back: Running Strong for American Indian Youth 1:03:01 - The Secret to a 63-Year Marriage

If you're in SF, join us tomorrow for a fun meetup at CodeGen Night!If you're in NYC, join us for AI Engineer Summit! The Agent Engineering track is now sold out, but 25 tickets remain for AI Leadership and 5 tickets for the workshops. You can see the full schedule of speakers and workshops at https://ai.engineer!It's exceedingly hard to introduce someone like Bret Taylor. We could recite his Wikipedia page, or his extensive work history through Silicon Valley's greatest companies, but everyone else already does that.As a podcast by AI engineers for AI engineers, we had the opportunity to do something a little different. We wanted to dig into what Bret sees from his vantage point at the top of our industry for the last 2 decades, and how that explains the rise of the AI Architect at Sierra, the leading conversational AI/CX platform.“Across our customer base, we are seeing a new role emerge - the role of the AI architect. These leaders are responsible for helping define, manage and evolve their company's AI agent over time. They come from a variety of both technical and business backgrounds, and we think that every company will have one or many AI architects managing their AI agent and related experience.”In our conversation, Bret Taylor confirms the Paul Buchheit legend that he rewrote Google Maps in a weekend, armed with only the help of a then-nascent Google Closure Compiler and no other modern tooling. But what we find remarkable is that he was the PM of Maps, not an engineer, though of course he still identifies as one. We find this theme recurring throughout Bret's career and worldview. We think it is plain as day that AI leadership will have to be hands-on and technical, especially when the ground is shifting as quickly as it is today:“There's a lot of power in combining product and engineering into as few people as possible… few great things have been created by committee.”“If engineering is an order taking organization for product you can sometimes make meaningful things, but rarely will you create extremely well crafted breakthrough products. Those tend to be small teams who deeply understand the customer need that they're solving, who have a maniacal focus on outcomes.”“And I think the reason why is if you look at like software as a service five years ago, maybe you can have a separation of product and engineering because most software as a service created five years ago. I wouldn't say there's like a lot of technological breakthroughs required for most business applications. And if you're making expense reporting software or whatever, it's useful… You kind of know how databases work, how to build auto scaling with your AWS cluster, whatever, you know, it's just, you're just applying best practices to yet another problem. "When you have areas like the early days of mobile development or the early days of interactive web applications, which I think Google Maps and Gmail represent, or now AI agents, you're in this constant conversation with what the requirements of your customers and stakeholders are and all the different people interacting with it and the capabilities of the technology. And it's almost impossible to specify the requirements of a product when you're not sure of the limitations of the technology itself.”This is the first time the difference between technical leadership for “normal” software and for “AI” software was articulated this clearly for us, and we'll be thinking a lot about this going forward. We left a lot of nuggets in the conversation, so we hope you'll just dive in with us (and thank Bret for joining the pod!)Timestamps* 00:00:02 Introductions and Bret Taylor's background* 00:01:23 Bret's experience at Stanford and the dot-com era* 00:04:04 The story of rewriting Google Maps backend* 00:11:06 Early days of interactive web applications at Google* 00:15:26 Discussion on product management and engineering roles* 00:21:00 AI and the future of software development* 00:26:42 Bret's approach to identifying customer needs and building AI companies* 00:32:09 The evolution of business models in the AI era* 00:41:00 The future of programming languages and software development* 00:49:38 Challenges in precisely communicating human intent to machines* 00:56:44 Discussion on Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) and its impact* 01:08:51 The future of agent-to-agent communication* 01:14:03 Bret's involvement in the OpenAI leadership crisis* 01:22:11 OpenAI's relationship with Microsoft* 01:23:23 OpenAI's mission and priorities* 01:27:40 Bret's guiding principles for career choices* 01:29:12 Brief discussion on pasta-making* 01:30:47 How Bret keeps up with AI developments* 01:32:15 Exciting research directions in AI* 01:35:19 Closing remarks and hiring at Sierra Transcript[00:02:05] Introduction and Guest Welcome[00:02:05] Alessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co host swyx, founder of smol.ai.[00:02:17] swyx: Hey, and today we're super excited to have Bret Taylor join us. Welcome. Thanks for having me. It's a little unreal to have you in the studio.[00:02:25] swyx: I've read about you so much over the years, like even before. Open AI effectively. I mean, I use Google Maps to get here. So like, thank you for everything that you've done. Like, like your story history, like, you know, I think people can find out what your greatest hits have been.[00:02:40] Bret Taylor's Early Career and Education[00:02:40] swyx: How do you usually like to introduce yourself when, you know, you talk about, you summarize your career, like, how do you look at yourself?[00:02:47] Bret: Yeah, it's a great question. You know, we, before we went on the mics here, we're talking about the audience for this podcast being more engineering. And I do think depending on the audience, I'll introduce myself differently because I've had a lot of [00:03:00] corporate and board roles. I probably self identify as an engineer more than anything else though.[00:03:04] Bret: So even when I was. Salesforce, I was coding on the weekends. So I think of myself as an engineer and then all the roles that I do in my career sort of start with that just because I do feel like engineering is sort of a mindset and how I approach most of my life. So I'm an engineer first and that's how I describe myself.[00:03:24] Bret: You majored in computer[00:03:25] swyx: science, like 1998. And, and I was high[00:03:28] Bret: school, actually my, my college degree was Oh, two undergrad. Oh, three masters. Right. That old.[00:03:33] swyx: Yeah. I mean, no, I was going, I was going like 1998 to 2003, but like engineering wasn't as, wasn't a thing back then. Like we didn't have the title of senior engineer, you know, kind of like, it was just.[00:03:44] swyx: You were a programmer, you were a developer, maybe. What was it like in Stanford? Like, what was that feeling like? You know, was it, were you feeling like on the cusp of a great computer revolution? Or was it just like a niche, you know, interest at the time?[00:03:57] Stanford and the Dot-Com Bubble[00:03:57] Bret: Well, I was at Stanford, as you said, from 1998 to [00:04:00] 2002.[00:04:02] Bret: 1998 was near the peak of the dot com bubble. So. This is back in the day where most people that they're coding in the computer lab, just because there was these sun microsystems, Unix boxes there that most of us had to do our assignments on. And every single day there was a. com like buying pizza for everybody.[00:04:20] Bret: I didn't have to like, I got. Free food, like my first two years of university and then the dot com bubble burst in the middle of my college career. And so by the end there was like tumbleweed going to the job fair, you know, it was like, cause it was hard to describe unless you were there at the time, the like level of hype and being a computer science major at Stanford was like, A thousand opportunities.[00:04:45] Bret: And then, and then when I left, it was like Microsoft, IBM.[00:04:49] Joining Google and Early Projects[00:04:49] Bret: And then the two startups that I applied to were VMware and Google. And I ended up going to Google in large part because a woman named Marissa Meyer, who had been a teaching [00:05:00] assistant when I was, what was called a section leader, which was like a junior teaching assistant kind of for one of the big interest.[00:05:05] Bret: Yes. Classes. She had gone there. And she was recruiting me and I knew her and it was sort of felt safe, you know, like, I don't know. I thought about it much, but it turned out to be a real blessing. I realized like, you know, you always want to think you'd pick Google if given the option, but no one knew at the time.[00:05:20] Bret: And I wonder if I'd graduated in like 1999 where I've been like, mom, I just got a job at pets. com. It's good. But you know, at the end I just didn't have any options. So I was like, do I want to go like make kernel software at VMware? Do I want to go build search at Google? And I chose Google. 50, 50 ball.[00:05:36] Bret: I'm not really a 50, 50 ball. So I feel very fortunate in retrospect that the economy collapsed because in some ways it forced me into like one of the greatest companies of all time, but I kind of lucked into it, I think.[00:05:47] The Google Maps Rewrite Story[00:05:47] Alessio: So the famous story about Google is that you rewrote the Google maps back in, in one week after the map quest quest maps acquisition, what was the story there?[00:05:57] Alessio: Is it. Actually true. Is it [00:06:00] being glorified? Like how, how did that come to be? And is there any detail that maybe Paul hasn't shared before?[00:06:06] Bret: It's largely true, but I'll give the color commentary. So it was actually the front end, not the back end, but it turns out for Google maps, the front end was sort of the hard part just because Google maps was.[00:06:17] Bret: Largely the first ish kind of really interactive web application, say first ish. I think Gmail certainly was though Gmail, probably a lot of people then who weren't engineers probably didn't appreciate its level of interactivity. It was just fast, but. Google maps, because you could drag the map and it was sort of graphical.[00:06:38] Bret: My, it really in the mainstream, I think, was it a map[00:06:41] swyx: quest back then that was, you had the arrows up and down, it[00:06:44] Bret: was up and down arrows. Each map was a single image and you just click left and then wait for a few seconds to the new map to let it was really small too, because generating a big image was kind of expensive on computers that day.[00:06:57] Bret: So Google maps was truly innovative in that [00:07:00] regard. The story on it. There was a small company called where two technologies started by two Danish brothers, Lars and Jens Rasmussen, who are two of my closest friends now. They had made a windows app called expedition, which had beautiful maps. Even in 2000.[00:07:18] Bret: For whenever we acquired or sort of acquired their company, Windows software was not particularly fashionable, but they were really passionate about mapping and we had made a local search product that was kind of middling in terms of popularity, sort of like a yellow page of search product. So we wanted to really go into mapping.[00:07:36] Bret: We'd started working on it. Their small team seemed passionate about it. So we're like, come join us. We can build this together.[00:07:42] Technical Challenges and Innovations[00:07:42] Bret: It turned out to be a great blessing that they had built a windows app because you're less technically constrained when you're doing native code than you are building a web browser, particularly back then when there weren't really interactive web apps and it ended up.[00:07:56] Bret: Changing the level of quality that we [00:08:00] wanted to hit with the app because we were shooting for something that felt like a native windows application. So it was a really good fortune that we sort of, you know, their unusual technical choices turned out to be the greatest blessing. So we spent a lot of time basically saying, how can you make a interactive draggable map in a web browser?[00:08:18] Bret: How do you progressively load, you know, new map tiles, you know, as you're dragging even things like down in the weeds of the browser at the time, most browsers like Internet Explorer, which was dominant at the time would only load two images at a time from the same domain. So we ended up making our map tile servers have like.[00:08:37] Bret: Forty different subdomains so we could load maps and parallels like lots of hacks. I'm happy to go into as much as like[00:08:44] swyx: HTTP connections and stuff.[00:08:46] Bret: They just like, there was just maximum parallelism of two. And so if you had a map, set of map tiles, like eight of them, so So we just, we were down in the weeds of the browser anyway.[00:08:56] Bret: So it was lots of plumbing. I can, I know a lot more about browsers than [00:09:00] most people, but then by the end of it, it was fairly, it was a lot of duct tape on that code. If you've ever done an engineering project where you're not really sure the path from point A to point B, it's almost like. Building a house by building one room at a time.[00:09:14] Bret: The, there's not a lot of architectural cohesion at the end. And then we acquired a company called Keyhole, which became Google earth, which was like that three, it was a native windows app as well, separate app, great app, but with that, we got licenses to all this satellite imagery. And so in August of 2005, we added.[00:09:33] Bret: Satellite imagery to Google Maps, which added even more complexity in the code base. And then we decided we wanted to support Safari. There was no mobile phones yet. So Safari was this like nascent browser on, on the Mac. And it turns out there's like a lot of decisions behind the scenes, sort of inspired by this windows app, like heavy use of XML and XSLT and all these like.[00:09:54] Bret: Technologies that were like briefly fashionable in the early two thousands and everyone hates now for good [00:10:00] reason. And it turns out that all of the XML functionality and Internet Explorer wasn't supporting Safari. So people are like re implementing like XML parsers. And it was just like this like pile of s**t.[00:10:11] Bret: And I had to say a s**t on your part. Yeah, of[00:10:12] Alessio: course.[00:10:13] Bret: So. It went from this like beautifully elegant application that everyone was proud of to something that probably had hundreds of K of JavaScript, which sounds like nothing. Now we're talking like people have modems, you know, not all modems, but it was a big deal.[00:10:29] Bret: So it was like slow. It took a while to load and just, it wasn't like a great code base. Like everything was fragile. So I just got. Super frustrated by it. And then one weekend I did rewrite all of it. And at the time the word JSON hadn't been coined yet too, just to give you a sense. So it's all XML.[00:10:47] swyx: Yeah.[00:10:47] Bret: So we used what is now you would call JSON, but I just said like, let's use eval so that we can parse the data fast. And, and again, that's, it would literally as JSON, but at the time there was no name for it. So we [00:11:00] just said, let's. Pass on JavaScript from the server and eval it. And then somebody just refactored the whole thing.[00:11:05] Bret: And, and it wasn't like I was some genius. It was just like, you know, if you knew everything you wished you had known at the beginning and I knew all the functionality, cause I was the primary, one of the primary authors of the JavaScript. And I just like, I just drank a lot of coffee and just stayed up all weekend.[00:11:22] Bret: And then I, I guess I developed a bit of reputation and no one knew about this for a long time. And then Paul who created Gmail and I ended up starting a company with him too, after all of this told this on a podcast and now it's large, but it's largely true. I did rewrite it and it, my proudest thing.[00:11:38] Bret: And I think JavaScript people appreciate this. Like the un G zipped bundle size for all of Google maps. When I rewrote, it was 20 K G zipped. It was like much smaller for the entire application. It went down by like 10 X. So. What happened on Google? Google is a pretty mainstream company. And so like our usage is shot up because it turns out like it's faster.[00:11:57] Bret: Just being faster is worth a lot of [00:12:00] percentage points of growth at a scale of Google. So how[00:12:03] swyx: much modern tooling did you have? Like test suites no compilers.[00:12:07] Bret: Actually, that's not true. We did it one thing. So I actually think Google, I, you can. Download it. There's a, Google has a closure compiler, a closure compiler.[00:12:15] Bret: I don't know if anyone still uses it. It's gone. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of gone out of favor. Yeah. Well, even until recently it was better than most JavaScript minifiers because it was more like it did a lot more renaming of variables and things. Most people use ES build now just cause it's fast and closure compilers built on Java and super slow and stuff like that.[00:12:37] Bret: But, so we did have that, that was it. Okay.[00:12:39] The Evolution of Web Applications[00:12:39] Bret: So and that was treated internally, you know, it was a really interesting time at Google at the time because there's a lot of teams working on fairly advanced JavaScript when no one was. So Google suggest, which Kevin Gibbs was the tech lead for, was the first kind of type ahead, autocomplete, I believe in a web browser, and now it's just pervasive in search boxes that you sort of [00:13:00] see a type ahead there.[00:13:01] Bret: I mean, chat, dbt[00:13:01] swyx: just added it. It's kind of like a round trip.[00:13:03] Bret: Totally. No, it's now pervasive as a UI affordance, but that was like Kevin's 20 percent project. And then Gmail, Paul you know, he tells the story better than anyone, but he's like, you know, basically was scratching his own itch, but what was really neat about it is email, because it's such a productivity tool, just needed to be faster.[00:13:21] Bret: So, you know, he was scratching his own itch of just making more stuff work on the client side. And then we, because of Lars and Yen sort of like setting the bar of this windows app or like we need our maps to be draggable. So we ended up. Not only innovate in terms of having a big sync, what would be called a single page application today, but also all the graphical stuff you know, we were crashing Firefox, like it was going out of style because, you know, when you make a document object model with the idea that it's a document and then you layer on some JavaScript and then we're essentially abusing all of this, it just was running into code paths that were not.[00:13:56] Bret: Well, it's rotten, you know, at this time. And so it was [00:14:00] super fun. And, and, you know, in the building you had, so you had compilers, people helping minify JavaScript just practically, but there is a great engineering team. So they were like, that's why Closure Compiler is so good. It was like a. Person who actually knew about programming languages doing it, not just, you know, writing regular expressions.[00:14:17] Bret: And then the team that is now the Chrome team believe, and I, I don't know this for a fact, but I'm pretty sure Google is the main contributor to Firefox for a long time in terms of code. And a lot of browser people were there. So every time we would crash Firefox, we'd like walk up two floors and say like, what the hell is going on here?[00:14:35] Bret: And they would load their browser, like in a debugger. And we could like figure out exactly what was breaking. And you can't change the code, right? Cause it's the browser. It's like slow, right? I mean, slow to update. So, but we could figure out exactly where the bug was and then work around it in our JavaScript.[00:14:52] Bret: So it was just like new territory. Like so super, super fun time, just like a lot of, a lot of great engineers figuring out [00:15:00] new things. And And now, you know, the word, this term is no longer in fashion, but the word Ajax, which was asynchronous JavaScript and XML cause I'm telling you XML, but see the word XML there, to be fair, the way you made HTTP requests from a client to server was this.[00:15:18] Bret: Object called XML HTTP request because Microsoft and making Outlook web access back in the day made this and it turns out to have nothing to do with XML. It's just a way of making HTTP requests because XML was like the fashionable thing. It was like that was the way you, you know, you did it. But the JSON came out of that, you know, and then a lot of the best practices around building JavaScript applications is pre React.[00:15:44] Bret: I think React was probably the big conceptual step forward that we needed. Even my first social network after Google, we used a lot of like HTML injection and. Making real time updates was still very hand coded and it's really neat when you [00:16:00] see conceptual breakthroughs like react because it's, I just love those things where it's like obvious once you see it, but it's so not obvious until you do.[00:16:07] Bret: And actually, well, I'm sure we'll get into AI, but I, I sort of feel like we'll go through that evolution with AI agents as well that I feel like we're missing a lot of the core abstractions that I think in 10 years we'll be like, gosh, how'd you make agents? Before that, you know, but it was kind of that early days of web applications.[00:16:22] swyx: There's a lot of contenders for the reactive jobs of of AI, but no clear winner yet. I would say one thing I was there for, I mean, there's so much we can go into there. You just covered so much.[00:16:32] Product Management and Engineering Synergy[00:16:32] swyx: One thing I just, I just observe is that I think the early Google days had this interesting mix of PM and engineer, which I think you are, you didn't, you didn't wait for PM to tell you these are my, this is my PRD.[00:16:42] swyx: This is my requirements.[00:16:44] mix: Oh,[00:16:44] Bret: okay.[00:16:45] swyx: I wasn't technically a software engineer. I mean,[00:16:48] Bret: by title, obviously. Right, right, right.[00:16:51] swyx: It's like a blend. And I feel like these days, product is its own discipline and its own lore and own industry and engineering is its own thing. And there's this process [00:17:00] that happens and they're kind of separated, but you don't produce as good of a product as if they were the same person.[00:17:06] swyx: And I'm curious, you know, if, if that, if that sort of resonates in, in, in terms of like comparing early Google versus modern startups that you see out there,[00:17:16] Bret: I certainly like wear a lot of hats. So, you know, sort of biased in this, but I really agree that there's a lot of power and combining product design engineering into as few people as possible because, you know few great things have been created by committee, you know, and so.[00:17:33] Bret: If engineering is an order taking organization for product you can sometimes make meaningful things, but rarely will you create extremely well crafted breakthrough products. Those tend to be small teams who deeply understand the customer need that they're solving, who have a. Maniacal focus on outcomes.[00:17:53] Bret: And I think the reason why it's, I think for some areas, if you look at like software as a service five years ago, maybe you can have a [00:18:00] separation of product and engineering because most software as a service created five years ago. I wouldn't say there's like a lot of like. Technological breakthroughs required for most, you know, business applications.[00:18:11] Bret: And if you're making expense reporting software or whatever, it's useful. I don't mean to be dismissive of expense reporting software, but you probably just want to understand like, what are the requirements of the finance department? What are the requirements of an individual file expense report? Okay.[00:18:25] Bret: Go implement that. And you kind of know how web applications are implemented. You kind of know how to. How databases work, how to build auto scaling with your AWS cluster, whatever, you know, it's just, you're just applying best practices to yet another problem when you have areas like the early days of mobile development or the early days of interactive web applications, which I think Google Maps and Gmail represent, or now AI agents, you're in this constant conversation with what the requirements of your customers and stakeholders are and all the different people interacting with it.[00:18:58] Bret: And the capabilities of the [00:19:00] technology. And it's almost impossible to specify the requirements of a product when you're not sure of the limitations of the technology itself. And that's why I use the word conversation. It's not literal. That's sort of funny to use that word in the age of conversational AI.[00:19:15] Bret: You're constantly sort of saying, like, ideally, you could sprinkle some magic AI pixie dust and solve all the world's problems, but it's not the way it works. And it turns out that actually, I'll just give an interesting example.[00:19:26] AI Agents and Modern Tooling[00:19:26] Bret: I think most people listening probably use co pilots to code like Cursor or Devon or Microsoft Copilot or whatever.[00:19:34] Bret: Most of those tools are, they're remarkable. I'm, I couldn't, you know, imagine development without them now, but they're not autonomous yet. Like I wouldn't let it just write most code without my interactively inspecting it. We just are somewhere between it's an amazing co pilot and it's an autonomous software engineer.[00:19:53] Bret: As a product manager, like your aspirations for what the product is are like kind of meaningful. But [00:20:00] if you're a product person, yeah, of course you'd say it should be autonomous. You should click a button and program should come out the other side. The requirements meaningless. Like what matters is like, what is based on the like very nuanced limitations of the technology.[00:20:14] Bret: What is it capable of? And then how do you maximize the leverage? It gives a software engineering team, given those very nuanced trade offs. Coupled with the fact that those nuanced trade offs are changing more rapidly than any technology in my memory, meaning every few months you'll have new models with new capabilities.[00:20:34] Bret: So how do you construct a product that can absorb those new capabilities as rapidly as possible as well? That requires such a combination of technical depth and understanding the customer that you really need more integration. Of product design and engineering. And so I think it's why with these big technology waves, I think startups have a bit of a leg up relative to incumbents because they [00:21:00] tend to be sort of more self actualized in terms of just like bringing those disciplines closer together.[00:21:06] Bret: And in particular, I think entrepreneurs, the proverbial full stack engineers, you know, have a leg up as well because. I think most breakthroughs happen when you have someone who can understand those extremely nuanced technical trade offs, have a vision for a product. And then in the process of building it, have that, as I said, like metaphorical conversation with the technology, right?[00:21:30] Bret: Gosh, I ran into a technical limit that I didn't expect. It's not just like changing that feature. You might need to refactor the whole product based on that. And I think that's, that it's particularly important right now. So I don't, you know, if you, if you're building a big ERP system, probably there's a great reason to have product and engineering.[00:21:51] Bret: I think in general, the disciplines are there for a reason. I think when you're dealing with something as nuanced as the like technologies, like large language models today, there's a ton of [00:22:00] advantage of having. Individuals or organizations that integrate the disciplines more formally.[00:22:05] Alessio: That makes a lot of sense.[00:22:06] Alessio: I've run a lot of engineering teams in the past, and I think the product versus engineering tension has always been more about effort than like whether or not the feature is buildable. But I think, yeah, today you see a lot more of like. Models actually cannot do that. And I think the most interesting thing is on the startup side, people don't yet know where a lot of the AI value is going to accrue.[00:22:26] Alessio: So you have this rush of people building frameworks, building infrastructure, layered things, but we don't really know the shape of the compute. I'm curious that Sierra, like how you thought about building an house, a lot of the tooling for evals or like just, you know, building the agents and all of that.[00:22:41] Alessio: Versus how you see some of the startup opportunities that is maybe still out there.[00:22:46] Bret: We build most of our tooling in house at Sierra, not all. It's, we don't, it's not like not invented here syndrome necessarily, though, maybe slightly guilty of that in some ways, but because we're trying to build a platform [00:23:00] that's in Dorian, you know, we really want to have control over our own destiny.[00:23:03] Bret: And you had made a comment earlier that like. We're still trying to figure out who like the reactive agents are and the jury is still out. I would argue it hasn't been created yet. I don't think the jury is still out to go use that metaphor. We're sort of in the jQuery era of agents, not the react era.[00:23:19] Bret: And, and that's like a throwback for people listening,[00:23:22] swyx: we shouldn't rush it. You know?[00:23:23] Bret: No, yeah, that's my point is. And so. Because we're trying to create an enduring company at Sierra that outlives us, you know, I'm not sure we want to like attach our cart to some like to a horse where it's not clear that like we've figured out and I actually want as a company, we're trying to enable just at a high level and I'll, I'll quickly go back to tech at Sierra, we help consumer brands build customer facing AI agents.[00:23:48] Bret: So. Everyone from Sonos to ADT home security to Sirius XM, you know, if you call them on the phone and AI will pick up with you, you know, chat with them on the Sirius XM homepage. It's an AI agent called Harmony [00:24:00] that they've built on our platform. We're what are the contours of what it means for someone to build an end to end complete customer experience with AI with conversational AI.[00:24:09] Bret: You know, we really want to dive into the deep end of, of all the trade offs to do it. You know, where do you use fine tuning? Where do you string models together? You know, where do you use reasoning? Where do you use generation? How do you use reasoning? How do you express the guardrails of an agentic process?[00:24:25] Bret: How do you impose determinism on a fundamentally non deterministic technology? There's just a lot of really like as an important design space. And I could sit here and tell you, we have the best approach. Every entrepreneur will, you know. But I hope that in two years, we look back at our platform and laugh at how naive we were, because that's the pace of change broadly.[00:24:45] Bret: If you talk about like the startup opportunities, I'm not wholly skeptical of tools companies, but I'm fairly skeptical. There's always an exception for every role, but I believe that certainly there's a big market for [00:25:00] frontier models, but largely for companies with huge CapEx budgets. So. Open AI and Microsoft's Anthropic and Amazon Web Services, Google Cloud XAI, which is very well capitalized now, but I think the, the idea that a company can make money sort of pre training a foundation model is probably not true.[00:25:20] Bret: It's hard to, you're competing with just, you know, unreasonably large CapEx budgets. And I just like the cloud infrastructure market, I think will be largely there. I also really believe in the applications of AI. And I define that not as like building agents or things like that. I define it much more as like, you're actually solving a problem for a business.[00:25:40] Bret: So it's what Harvey is doing in legal profession or what cursor is doing for software engineering or what we're doing for customer experience and customer service. The reason I believe in that is I do think that in the age of AI, what's really interesting about software is it can actually complete a task.[00:25:56] Bret: It can actually do a job, which is very different than the value proposition of [00:26:00] software was to ancient history two years ago. And as a consequence, I think the way you build a solution and For a domain is very different than you would have before, which means that it's not obvious, like the incumbent incumbents have like a leg up, you know, necessarily, they certainly have some advantages, but there's just such a different form factor, you know, for providing a solution and it's just really valuable.[00:26:23] Bret: You know, it's. Like just think of how much money cursor is saving software engineering teams or the alternative, how much revenue it can produce tool making is really challenging. If you look at the cloud market, just as a analog, there are a lot of like interesting tools, companies, you know, Confluent, Monetized Kafka, Snowflake, Hortonworks, you know, there's a, there's a bunch of them.[00:26:48] Bret: A lot of them, you know, have that mix of sort of like like confluence or have the open source or open core or whatever you call it. I, I, I'm not an expert in this area. You know, I do think [00:27:00] that developers are fickle. I think that in the tool space, I probably like. Default towards open source being like the area that will win.[00:27:09] Bret: It's hard to build a company around this and then you end up with companies sort of built around open source to that can work. Don't get me wrong, but I just think that it's nowadays the tools are changing so rapidly that I'm like, not totally skeptical of tool makers, but I just think that open source will broadly win, but I think that the CapEx required for building frontier models is such that it will go to a handful of big companies.[00:27:33] Bret: And then I really believe in agents for specific domains which I think will, it's sort of the analog to software as a service in this new era. You know, it's like, if you just think of the cloud. You can lease a server. It's just a low level primitive, or you can buy an app like you know, Shopify or whatever.[00:27:51] Bret: And most people building a storefront would prefer Shopify over hand rolling their e commerce storefront. I think the same thing will be true of AI. So [00:28:00] I've. I tend to like, if I have a, like an entrepreneur asked me for advice, I'm like, you know, move up the stack as far as you can towards a customer need.[00:28:09] Bret: Broadly, but I, but it doesn't reduce my excitement about what is the reactive building agents kind of thing, just because it is, it is the right question to ask, but I think we'll probably play out probably an open source space more than anything else.[00:28:21] swyx: Yeah, and it's not a priority for you. There's a lot in there.[00:28:24] swyx: I'm kind of curious about your idea maze towards, there are many customer needs. You happen to identify customer experience as yours, but it could equally have been coding assistance or whatever. I think for some, I'm just kind of curious at the top down, how do you look at the world in terms of the potential problem space?[00:28:44] swyx: Because there are many people out there who are very smart and pick the wrong problem.[00:28:47] Bret: Yeah, that's a great question.[00:28:48] Future of Software Development[00:28:48] Bret: By the way, I would love to talk about the future of software, too, because despite the fact it didn't pick coding, I have a lot of that, but I can talk to I can answer your question, though, you know I think when a technology is as [00:29:00] cool as large language models.[00:29:02] Bret: You just see a lot of people starting from the technology and searching for a problem to solve. And I think it's why you see a lot of tools companies, because as a software engineer, you start building an app or a demo and you, you encounter some pain points. You're like,[00:29:17] swyx: a lot of[00:29:17] Bret: people are experiencing the same pain point.[00:29:19] Bret: What if I make it? That it's just very incremental. And you know, I always like to use the metaphor, like you can sell coffee beans, roasted coffee beans. You can add some value. You took coffee beans and you roasted them and roasted coffee beans largely, you know, are priced relative to the cost of the beans.[00:29:39] Bret: Or you can sell a latte and a latte. Is rarely priced directly like as a percentage of coffee bean prices. In fact, if you buy a latte at the airport, it's a captive audience. So it's a really expensive latte. And there's just a lot that goes into like. How much does a latte cost? And I bring it up because there's a supply chain from growing [00:30:00] coffee beans to roasting coffee beans to like, you know, you could make one at home or you could be in the airport and buy one and the margins of the company selling lattes in the airport is a lot higher than the, you know, people roasting the coffee beans and it's because you've actually solved a much more acute human problem in the airport.[00:30:19] Bret: And, and it's just worth a lot more to that person in that moment. It's kind of the way I think about technology too. It sounds funny to liken it to coffee beans, but you're selling tools on top of a large language model yet in some ways your market is big, but you're probably going to like be price compressed just because you're sort of a piece of infrastructure and then you have open source and all these other things competing with you naturally.[00:30:43] Bret: If you go and solve a really big business problem for somebody, that's actually like a meaningful business problem that AI facilitates, they will value it according to the value of that business problem. And so I actually feel like people should just stop. You're like, no, that's, that's [00:31:00] unfair. If you're searching for an idea of people, I, I love people trying things, even if, I mean, most of the, a lot of the greatest ideas have been things no one believed in.[00:31:07] Bret: So I like, if you're passionate about something, go do it. Like who am I to say, yeah, a hundred percent. Or Gmail, like Paul as far, I mean I, some of it's Laura at this point, but like Gmail is Paul's own email for a long time. , and then I amusingly and Paul can't correct me, I'm pretty sure he sent her in a link and like the first comment was like, this is really neat.[00:31:26] Bret: It would be great. It was not your email, but my own . I don't know if it's a true story. I'm pretty sure it's, yeah, I've read that before. So scratch your own niche. Fine. Like it depends on what your goal is. If you wanna do like a venture backed company, if its a. Passion project, f*****g passion, do it like don't listen to anybody.[00:31:41] Bret: In fact, but if you're trying to start, you know an enduring company, solve an important business problem. And I, and I do think that in the world of agents, the software industries has shifted where you're not just helping people more. People be more productive, but you're actually accomplishing tasks autonomously.[00:31:58] Bret: And as a consequence, I think the [00:32:00] addressable market has just greatly expanded just because software can actually do things now and actually accomplish tasks and how much is coding autocomplete worth. A fair amount. How much is the eventual, I'm certain we'll have it, the software agent that actually writes the code and delivers it to you, that's worth a lot.[00:32:20] Bret: And so, you know, I would just maybe look up from the large language models and start thinking about the economy and, you know, think from first principles. I don't wanna get too far afield, but just think about which parts of the economy. We'll benefit most from this intelligence and which parts can absorb it most easily.[00:32:38] Bret: And what would an agent in this space look like? Who's the customer of it is the technology feasible. And I would just start with these business problems more. And I think, you know, the best companies tend to have great engineers who happen to have great insight into a market. And it's that last part that I think some people.[00:32:56] Bret: Whether or not they have, it's like people start so much in the technology, they [00:33:00] lose the forest for the trees a little bit.[00:33:02] Alessio: How do you think about the model of still selling some sort of software versus selling more package labor? I feel like when people are selling the package labor, it's almost more stateless, you know, like it's easier to swap out if you're just putting an input and getting an output.[00:33:16] Alessio: If you think about coding, if there's no ID, you're just putting a prompt and getting back an app. It doesn't really matter. Who generates the app, you know, you have less of a buy in versus the platform you're building, I'm sure on the backend customers have to like put on their documentation and they have, you know, different workflows that they can tie in what's kind of like the line to draw there versus like going full where you're managed customer support team as a service outsource versus.[00:33:40] Alessio: This is the Sierra platform that you can build on. What was that decision? I'll sort of[00:33:44] Bret: like decouple the question in some ways, which is when you have something that's an agent, who is the person using it and what do they want to do with it? So let's just take your coding agent for a second. I will talk about Sierra as well.[00:33:59] Bret: Who's the [00:34:00] customer of a, an agent that actually produces software? Is it a software engineering manager? Is it a software engineer? And it's there, you know, intern so to speak. I don't know. I mean, we'll figure this out over the next few years. Like what is that? And is it generating code that you then review?[00:34:16] Bret: Is it generating code with a set of unit tests that pass, what is the actual. For lack of a better word contract, like, how do you know that it did what you wanted it to do? And then I would say like the product and the pricing, the packaging model sort of emerged from that. And I don't think the world's figured out.[00:34:33] Bret: I think it'll be different for every agent. You know, in our customer base, we do what's called outcome based pricing. So essentially every time the AI agent. Solves the problem or saves a customer or whatever it might be. There's a pre negotiated rate for that. We do that. Cause it's, we think that that's sort of the correct way agents, you know, should be packaged.[00:34:53] Bret: I look back at the history of like cloud software and notably the introduction of the browser, which led to [00:35:00] software being delivered in a browser, like Salesforce to. Famously invented sort of software as a service, which is both a technical delivery model through the browser, but also a business model, which is you subscribe to it rather than pay for a perpetual license.[00:35:13] Bret: Those two things are somewhat orthogonal, but not really. If you think about the idea of software running in a browser, that's hosted. Data center that you don't own, you sort of needed to change the business model because you don't, you can't really buy a perpetual license or something otherwise like, how do you afford making changes to it?[00:35:31] Bret: So it only worked when you were buying like a new version every year or whatever. So to some degree, but then the business model shift actually changed business as we know it, because now like. Things like Adobe Photoshop. Now you subscribe to rather than purchase. So it ended up where you had a technical shift and a business model shift that were very logically intertwined that actually the business model shift was turned out to be as significant as the technical as the shift.[00:35:59] Bret: And I think with [00:36:00] agents, because they actually accomplish a job, I do think that it doesn't make sense to me that you'd pay for the privilege of like. Using the software like that coding agent, like if it writes really bad code, like fire it, you know, I don't know what the right metaphor is like you should pay for a job.[00:36:17] Bret: Well done in my opinion. I mean, that's how you pay your software engineers, right? And[00:36:20] swyx: and well, not really. We paid to put them on salary and give them options and they vest over time. That's fair.[00:36:26] Bret: But my point is that you don't pay them for how many characters they write, which is sort of the token based, you know, whatever, like, There's a, that famous Apple story where we're like asking for a report of how many lines of code you wrote.[00:36:40] Bret: And one of the engineers showed up with like a negative number cause he had just like done a big refactoring. There was like a big F you to management who didn't understand how software is written. You know, my sense is like the traditional usage based or seat based thing. It's just going to look really antiquated.[00:36:55] Bret: Cause it's like asking your software engineer, how many lines of code did you write today? Like who cares? Like, cause [00:37:00] absolutely no correlation. So my old view is I don't think it's be different in every category, but I do think that that is the, if an agent is doing a job, you should, I think it properly incentivizes the maker of that agent and the customer of, of your pain for the job well done.[00:37:16] Bret: It's not always perfect to measure. It's hard to measure engineering productivity, but you can, you should do something other than how many keys you typed, you know Talk about perverse incentives for AI, right? Like I can write really long functions to do the same thing, right? So broadly speaking, you know, I do think that we're going to see a change in business models of software towards outcomes.[00:37:36] Bret: And I think you'll see a change in delivery models too. And, and, you know, in our customer base you know, we empower our customers to really have their hands on the steering wheel of what the agent does they, they want and need that. But the role is different. You know, at a lot of our customers, the customer experience operations folks have renamed themselves the AI architects, which I think is really cool.[00:37:55] Bret: And, you know, it's like in the early days of the Internet, there's the role of the webmaster. [00:38:00] And I don't know whether your webmaster is not a fashionable, you know, Term, nor is it a job anymore? I just, I don't know. Will they, our tech stand the test of time? Maybe, maybe not. But I do think that again, I like, you know, because everyone listening right now is a software engineer.[00:38:14] Bret: Like what is the form factor of a coding agent? And actually I'll, I'll take a breath. Cause actually I have a bunch of pins on them. Like I wrote a blog post right before Christmas, just on the future of software development. And one of the things that's interesting is like, if you look at the way I use cursor today, as an example, it's inside of.[00:38:31] Bret: A repackaged visual studio code environment. I sometimes use the sort of agentic parts of it, but it's largely, you know, I've sort of gotten a good routine of making it auto complete code in the way I want through tuning it properly when it actually can write. I do wonder what like the future of development environments will look like.[00:38:55] Bret: And to your point on what is a software product, I think it's going to change a lot in [00:39:00] ways that will surprise us. But I always use, I use the metaphor in my blog post of, have you all driven around in a way, Mo around here? Yeah, everyone has. And there are these Jaguars, the really nice cars, but it's funny because it still has a steering wheel, even though there's no one sitting there and the steering wheels like turning and stuff clearly in the future.[00:39:16] Bret: If once we get to that, be more ubiquitous, like why have the steering wheel and also why have all the seats facing forward? Maybe just for car sickness. I don't know, but you could totally rearrange the car. I mean, so much of the car is oriented around the driver, so. It stands to reason to me that like, well, autonomous agents for software engineering run through visual studio code.[00:39:37] Bret: That seems a little bit silly because having a single source code file open one at a time is kind of a goofy form factor for when like the code isn't being written primarily by you, but it begs the question of what's your relationship with that agent. And I think the same is true in our industry of customer experience, which is like.[00:39:55] Bret: Who are the people managing this agent? What are the tools do they need? And they definitely need [00:40:00] tools, but it's probably pretty different than the tools we had before. It's certainly different than training a contact center team. And as software engineers, I think that I would like to see particularly like on the passion project side or research side.[00:40:14] Bret: More innovation in programming languages. I think that we're bringing the cost of writing code down to zero. So the fact that we're still writing Python with AI cracks me up just cause it's like literally was designed to be ergonomic to write, not safe to run or fast to run. I would love to see more innovation and how we verify program correctness.[00:40:37] Bret: I studied for formal verification in college a little bit and. It's not very fashionable because it's really like tedious and slow and doesn't work very well. If a lot of code is being written by a machine, you know, one of the primary values we can provide is verifying that it actually does what we intend that it does.[00:40:56] Bret: I think there should be lots of interesting things in the software development life cycle, like how [00:41:00] we think of testing and everything else, because. If you think about if we have to manually read every line of code that's coming out as machines, it will just rate limit how much the machines can do. The alternative is totally unsafe.[00:41:13] Bret: So I wouldn't want to put code in production that didn't go through proper code review and inspection. So my whole view is like, I actually think there's like an AI native I don't think the coding agents don't work well enough to do this yet, but once they do, what is sort of an AI native software development life cycle and how do you actually.[00:41:31] Bret: Enable the creators of software to produce the highest quality, most robust, fastest software and know that it's correct. And I think that's an incredible opportunity. I mean, how much C code can we rewrite and rust and make it safe so that there's fewer security vulnerabilities. Can we like have more efficient, safer code than ever before?[00:41:53] Bret: And can you have someone who's like that guy in the matrix, you know, like staring at the little green things, like where could you have an operator [00:42:00] of a code generating machine be like superhuman? I think that's a cool vision. And I think too many people are focused on like. Autocomplete, you know, right now, I'm not, I'm not even, I'm guilty as charged.[00:42:10] Bret: I guess in some ways, but I just like, I'd like to see some bolder ideas. And that's why when you were joking, you know, talking about what's the react of whatever, I think we're clearly in a local maximum, you know, metaphor, like sort of conceptual local maximum, obviously it's moving really fast. I think we're moving out of it.[00:42:26] Alessio: Yeah. At the end of 23, I've read this blog post from syntax to semantics. Like if you think about Python. It's taking C and making it more semantic and LLMs are like the ultimate semantic program, right? You can just talk to them and they can generate any type of syntax from your language. But again, the languages that they have to use were made for us, not for them.[00:42:46] Alessio: But the problem is like, as long as you will ever need a human to intervene, you cannot change the language under it. You know what I mean? So I'm curious at what point of automation we'll need to get, we're going to be okay making changes. To the underlying languages, [00:43:00] like the programming languages versus just saying, Hey, you just got to write Python because I understand Python and I'm more important at the end of the day than the model.[00:43:08] Alessio: But I think that will change, but I don't know if it's like two years or five years. I think it's more nuanced actually.[00:43:13] Bret: So I think there's a, some of the more interesting programming languages bring semantics into syntax. So let me, that's a little reductive, but like Rust as an example, Rust is memory safe.[00:43:25] Bret: Statically, and that was a really interesting conceptual, but it's why it's hard to write rust. It's why most people write python instead of rust. I think rust programs are safer and faster than python, probably slower to compile. But like broadly speaking, like given the option, if you didn't have to care about the labor that went into it.[00:43:45] Bret: You should prefer a program written in Rust over a program written in Python, just because it will run more efficiently. It's almost certainly safer, et cetera, et cetera, depending on how you define safe, but most people don't write Rust because it's kind of a pain in the ass. And [00:44:00] the audience of people who can is smaller, but it's sort of better in most, most ways.[00:44:05] Bret: And again, let's say you're making a web service and you didn't have to care about how hard it was to write. If you just got the output of the web service, the rest one would be cheaper to operate. It's certainly cheaper and probably more correct just because there's so much in the static analysis implied by the rest programming language that it probably will have fewer runtime errors and things like that as well.[00:44:25] Bret: So I just give that as an example, because so rust, at least my understanding that came out of the Mozilla team, because. There's lots of security vulnerabilities in the browser and it needs to be really fast. They said, okay, we want to put more of a burden at the authorship time to have fewer issues at runtime.[00:44:43] Bret: And we need the constraint that it has to be done statically because browsers need to be really fast. My sense is if you just think about like the, the needs of a programming language today, where the role of a software engineer is [00:45:00] to use an AI to generate functionality and audit that it does in fact work as intended, maybe functionally, maybe from like a correctness standpoint, some combination thereof, how would you create a programming system that facilitated that?[00:45:15] Bret: And, you know, I bring up Rust is because I think it's a good example of like, I think given a choice of writing in C or Rust, you should choose Rust today. I think most people would say that, even C aficionados, just because. C is largely less safe for very similar, you know, trade offs, you know, for the, the system and now with AI, it's like, okay, well, that just changes the game on writing these things.[00:45:36] Bret: And so like, I just wonder if a combination of programming languages that are more structurally oriented towards the values that we need from an AI generated program, verifiable correctness and all of that. If it's tedious to produce for a person, that maybe doesn't matter. But one thing, like if I asked you, is this rest program memory safe?[00:45:58] Bret: You wouldn't have to read it, you just have [00:46:00] to compile it. So that's interesting. I mean, that's like an, that's one example of a very modest form of formal verification. So I bring that up because I do think you have AI inspect AI, you can have AI reviewed. Do AI code reviews. It would disappoint me if the best we could get was AI reviewing Python and having scaled a few very large.[00:46:21] Bret: Websites that were written on Python. It's just like, you know, expensive and it's like every, trust me, every team who's written a big web service in Python has experimented with like Pi Pi and all these things just to make it slightly more efficient than it naturally is. You don't really have true multi threading anyway.[00:46:36] Bret: It's just like clearly that you do it just because it's convenient to write. And I just feel like we're, I don't want to say it's insane. I just mean. I do think we're at a local maximum. And I would hope that we create a programming system, a combination of programming languages, formal verification, testing, automated code reviews, where you can use AI to generate software in a high scale way and trust it.[00:46:59] Bret: And you're [00:47:00] not limited by your ability to read it necessarily. I don't know exactly what form that would take, but I feel like that would be a pretty cool world to live in.[00:47:08] Alessio: Yeah. We had Chris Lanner on the podcast. He's doing great work with modular. I mean, I love. LVM. Yeah. Basically merging rust in and Python.[00:47:15] Alessio: That's kind of the idea. Should be, but I'm curious is like, for them a big use case was like making it compatible with Python, same APIs so that Python developers could use it. Yeah. And so I, I wonder at what point, well, yeah.[00:47:26] Bret: At least my understanding is they're targeting the data science Yeah. Machine learning crowd, which is all written in Python, so still feels like a local maximum.[00:47:34] Bret: Yeah.[00:47:34] swyx: Yeah, exactly. I'll force you to make a prediction. You know, Python's roughly 30 years old. In 30 years from now, is Rust going to be bigger than Python?[00:47:42] Bret: I don't know this, but just, I don't even know this is a prediction. I just am sort of like saying stuff I hope is true. I would like to see an AI native programming language and programming system, and I use language because I'm not sure language is even the right thing, but I hope in 30 years, there's an AI native way we make [00:48:00] software that is wholly uncorrelated with the current set of programming languages.[00:48:04] Bret: or not uncorrelated, but I think most programming languages today were designed to be efficiently authored by people and some have different trade offs.[00:48:15] Evolution of Programming Languages[00:48:15] Bret: You know, you have Haskell and others that were designed for abstractions for parallelism and things like that. You have programming languages like Python, which are designed to be very easily written, sort of like Perl and Python lineage, which is why data scientists use it.[00:48:31] Bret: It's it can, it has a. Interactive mode, things like that. And I love, I'm a huge Python fan. So despite all my Python trash talk, a huge Python fan wrote at least two of my three companies were exclusively written in Python and then C came out of the birth of Unix and it wasn't the first, but certainly the most prominent first step after assembly language, right?[00:48:54] Bret: Where you had higher level abstractions rather than and going beyond go to, to like abstractions, [00:49:00] like the for loop and the while loop.[00:49:01] The Future of Software Engineering[00:49:01] Bret: So I just think that if the act of writing code is no longer a meaningful human exercise, maybe it will be, I don't know. I'm just saying it sort of feels like maybe it's one of those parts of history that just will sort of like go away, but there's still the role of this offer engineer, like the person actually building the system.[00:49:20] Bret: Right. And. What does a programming system for that form factor look like?[00:49:25] React and Front-End Development[00:49:25] Bret: And I, I just have a, I hope to be just like I mentioned, I remember I was at Facebook in the very early days when, when, what is now react was being created. And I remember when the, it was like released open source I had left by that time and I was just like, this is so f*****g cool.[00:49:42] Bret: Like, you know, to basically model your app independent of the data flowing through it, just made everything easier. And then now. You know, I can create, like there's a lot of the front end software gym play is like a little chaotic for me, to be honest with you. It is like, it's sort of like [00:50:00] abstraction soup right now for me, but like some of those core ideas felt really ergonomic.[00:50:04] Bret: I just wanna, I'm just looking forward to the day when someone comes up with a programming system that feels both really like an aha moment, but completely foreign to me at the same time. Because they created it with sort of like from first principles recognizing that like. Authoring code in an editor is maybe not like the primary like reason why a programming system exists anymore.[00:50:26] Bret: And I think that's like, that would be a very exciting day for me.[00:50:28] The Role of AI in Programming[00:50:28] swyx: Yeah, I would say like the various versions of this discussion have happened at the end of the day, you still need to precisely communicate what you want. As a manager of people, as someone who has done many, many legal contracts, you know how hard that is.[00:50:42] swyx: And then now we have to talk to machines doing that and AIs interpreting what we mean and reading our minds effectively. I don't know how to get across that barrier of translating human intent to instructions. And yes, it can be more declarative, but I don't know if it'll ever Crossover from being [00:51:00] a programming language to something more than that.[00:51:02] Bret: I agree with you. And I actually do think if you look at like a legal contract, you know, the imprecision of the English language, it's like a flaw in the system. How many[00:51:12] swyx: holes there are.[00:51:13] Bret: And I do think that when you're making a mission critical software system, I don't think it should be English language prompts.[00:51:19] Bret: I think that is silly because you want the precision of a a programming language. My point was less about that and more about if the actual act of authoring it, like if you.[00:51:32] Formal Verification in Software[00:51:32] Bret: I'll think of some embedded systems do use formal verification. I know it's very common in like security protocols now so that you can, because the importance of correctness is so great.[00:51:41] Bret: My intellectual exercise is like, why not do that for all software? I mean, probably that's silly just literally to do what we literally do for. These low level security protocols, but the only reason we don't is because it's hard and tedious and hard and tedious are no longer factors. So, like, if I could, I mean, [00:52:00] just think of, like, the silliest app on your phone right now, the idea that that app should be, like, formally verified for its correctness feels laughable right now because, like, God, why would you spend the time on it?[00:52:10] Bret: But if it's zero costs, like, yeah, I guess so. I mean, it never crashed. That's probably good. You know, why not? I just want to, like, set our bars really high. Like. We should make, software has been amazing. Like there's a Mark Andreessen blog post, software is eating the world. And you know, our whole life is, is mediated digitally.[00:52:26] Bret: And that's just increasing with AI. And now we'll have our personal agents talking to the agents on the CRO platform and it's agents all the way down, you know, our core infrastructure is running on these digital systems. We now have like, and we've had a shortage of software developers for my entire life.[00:52:45] Bret: And as a consequence, you know if you look, remember like health care, got healthcare. gov that fiasco security vulnerabilities leading to state actors getting access to critical infrastructure. I'm like. We now have like created this like amazing system that can [00:53:00] like, we can fix this, you know, and I, I just want to, I'm both excited about the productivity gains in the economy, but I just think as software engineers, we should be bolder.[00:53:08] Bret: Like we should have aspirations to fix these systems so that like in general, as you said, as precise as we want to be in the specification of the system. We can make it work correctly now, and I'm being a little bit hand wavy, and I think we need some systems. I think that's where we should set the bar, especially when so much of our life depends on this critical digital infrastructure.[00:53:28] Bret: So I'm I'm just like super optimistic about it. But actually, let's go to w

Jeff Stanfield & Andy Shaver breakdown this years Super Bowl matchup between the Kansas City Chiefs and the Philadelphia Eagles. They each give their predictions and pick their winners ahead of this weekend's game. This series is presented by Mitch Hall Chevrolet in Haskell, Tx.

Picking wine for Valentine's day. A bouquet of rosé can be found at Haskell's. The history of rosé wine and how it is made. For more information and to check out some of the incredible selections Ted and the team at Haskell's has to offer - visit Haskell's.com

Wine to serve during your party for the big game. What wine could pair well with the traditional foods that are served during the big game. What is the most popular beer today? It's good to serve a variety of beer during your party. Making mixed cocktails for the game. For more information and to check out some of the incredible selections Ted and the team at Haskell's has to offer - visit Haskell's.com

Jeff Stanfield & Andy Shaver run through the two games of the Conference Championship in the NFL. They each give their predictions and pick their winners ahead of this weekend's matchups. This series is presented by Mitch Hall Chevrolet in Haskell, Tx.

Wine from the Patriarche vineyard in the burgundy region of France. The food that compliments these wine varieties. A special deal for WCCO listeners. For more information and to check out some of the incredible selections Ted and the team at Haskell's has to offer - visit Haskell's.com

Sam Lindley is a Reader in Programming Languages Design and Implementation at the University of Edinburgh. In this episode, he tells us how difficult naming is, the different kinds of effect systems and handlers, languages *much* purer than Haskell, and Modal logic.

Jeff Stanfield & Andy Shaver run through the four games of the Divisional Round of playoffs in the NFL. They each pick their winners ahead of this weekend's matchups. This series is presented by Mitch Hall Chevrolet in Haskell, Tx.

Jeff Stanfield & Andy Shaver run through all of the games from the Wild Card Weekend in the NFL. They choose their winners from each matchup and they also pick an upset from the weekend of games. This series is presented by Mitch Hall Chevrolet in Haskell, Tx.

The Joint Readiness Training Center is pleased to present the eighty-fifth episode to air on ‘The Crucible - The JRTC Experience.' LTC Russell Cummings is the TF Senior of Fires Support Task Force and OCT for the battalion commander of the various field artillery battalions at the JRTC, on behalf of the Commander of Ops Group (COG). Today's guest is the battalion commander for 1st Battalion, 320th Field Artillery Regiment, LTC Christopher Haskell.   The 1st Battalion, 320th Field Artillery Regiment (1-320 FA), known by its call sign “Top Guns,” is a storied artillery unit within the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault). Originally constituted in 1917, the battalion has a long history of excellence in providing fire support, with significant contributions in World War II, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Its motto, “Volens et Potens”—Latin for “Willing and Able”—reflects the battalion's dedication to mission readiness and adaptability. As a critical component of 2nd Mobile Brigade Combat Team, “Strike,” of the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), 1-320 FA continues to deliver precision fires and integrated support, demonstrating its enduring commitment to excellence on both the battlefield and the training field.   In this episode, we focus on the lessons learned and best practices from 2nd Mobile Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division, during their recent JRTC rotation, with a particular emphasis on the joint fires enterprise. We discussed the challenges and successes in integrating joint fires at the brigade and battalion levels, highlighting the importance of synchronizing fires with maneuver to achieve operational objectives. The use of emerging technologies, such as the SBU-E (Sensitive But Unclassified Encrypted) network and MUOS (Mobile User Objective System), played a critical role in maintaining robust communications for fire support coordination in a contested environment. The team also emphasized the need for rehearsing fires plans and leveraging deception techniques, which proved invaluable for exposing and targeting adversary capabilities. These efforts underscored the importance of a deliberate and cohesive approach to joint fires integration, ensuring the brigade's success in multi-domain operations.   Additionally, the discussion delves into the brigade's innovative use of a Multifunctional Reconnaissance Company (MFRC) to enhance joint fires capabilities. By integrating reconnaissance, electronic warfare, robotics, and unmanned systems, the MFRC provided precise, multi-domain targeting information that directly supported fire support operations. We emphasized the critical role of effective observer plans and cross-training within fire support teams to maintain flexibility and redundancy in delivering timely and accurate fires. The conversation also highlighted the necessity of mastering fundamentals—such as concealment, camouflage, and rapid displacement—to protect fire support assets and preserve combat power. This integration of advanced technologies with disciplined warfighting practices demonstrated how the joint fires enterprise can serve as a decisive enabler in large-scale combat operations (LSCO).   Part of S07 “Joint Fires Discussions” series.   For additional information and insights from this episode, please check-out our Instagram page @the_jrtc_crucible_podcast   Be sure to follow us on social media to keep up with the latest warfighting TTPs learned through the crucible that is the Joint Readiness Training Center.   Follow us by going to: https://linktr.ee/jrtc and then selecting your preferred podcast format.   Again, we'd like to thank our guests for participating. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and review us wherever you listen or watch your podcasts — and be sure to stay tuned for more in the near future.   “The Crucible – The JRTC Experience” is a product of the Joint Readiness Training Center.

Artist William Haskell speaks on his art and life at the Mountain Oyster Club in Tucson, Arizona for the Friends of Western Art.

Jeff Stanfield & Andy Shaver are joined by Pete Peterman to run through all of the games from Week 17 the NFL. They choose their winners from each matchup and they also pick an upset from the weekend of games. This series is presented by Mitch Hall Chevrolet in Haskell, Tx.

Jeff Stanfield & Andy Shaver are joined by Reese Shaver to run through all of the games from Week 17 the NFL. They choose their winners from each matchup and they also pick an upset from the weekend of games. This series is presented by Mitch Hall Chevrolet in Haskell, Tx.

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Jeff Stanfield & Andy Shaver are joined by Happy O'Tool to run through all of the games from Week 13 the NFL. They choose their winners from each matchup and they also pick an upset from the weekend of games. This series is presented by Mitch Hall Chevrolet in Haskell, Tx.