Podcast appearances and mentions of michael hingston

September 11, 2001, changed Bob Ellis's life, just as it changed mine. Bob was working at the Pentagon that morning and had walked out of the building only minutes before Flight 77 struck the area where his meeting had taken place. You will hear how he immediately became part of the response, helping organize emergency supplies and support for those working at the Pentagon. We also compare our experiences from two different locations that day, Bob at the Pentagon and me at the World Trade Center with my guide dog Roselle. Twenty-five years later, our conversation is about more than remembering 9/11. It is about leadership, teamwork, service, controlling fear, and deciding what we do with the life we have been given. I believe Bob's story offers lessons we can all use when the unexpected happens. Highlights: 05:29-Bob shares how his early life and military support career shaped his path. 23:53-He recalls realizing the first World Trade Center strike was not an accident. 32:59-Bob describes being just 300 yards away when the Pentagon was hit. 37:00-He explains how he helped organize emergency relief supplies within hours. 1:03:54-Michael reflects on survival, fear, and the responsibility to move forward. 1:06:55-Bob shares the lasting life lessons he took from September 11. About the Guest: Bob Ellis is the Vice President, American Logistics Association responsible for Exchange, MWR, Food Service Operations. The native of Fort Walton Beach, Florida began his career with AAFES in 1972. From 1972 through 1984, he held retail management positions as a Branch Manager, and Operations Manager Main Store. In 1985, Ellis began a string of assignments as an Exchange General Manager trainee at Fort Belvoir, VA, and Exchange General Manager, Fort Hamilton, NY and Carlisle Barrack PA, (Army War College). Assignments as Area Retail Manager and General Manager at the former Japan Area Exchange ran from 1989-1992. In 1992, Ellis was transferred to Travis AFB in California as Retail Manager, Main Store. In 1994, Ellis was selected for the General Manager's position at Travis and spent three years assisting in the design and new construction effort of the largest retail Main Store ever constructed by AAFES. From 1997 to 2002, Ellis held the position of Director of AAFES' Washington Office, serving as the principal representative of the Commander, AAFES to the Office of the Secretary of Defense, the Departments of the Army and the Air Force, Congressional offices and industry representatives. Notable among his accomplishments, Ellis was instrumental in spearheading AAFES support to the Pentagon after the attacks of September 11th. Within 48 hours of the event, AAFES established a mobile exchange in the shadow of the impact site to support rescue workers and investigators with critical need and personal comfort items. After Washington, Ellis moved to AAFES Headquarters' in Dallas to assume the Vice President Specialty and Consumables position. In this role, Ellis was responsible for the SD-C Category Team Managers/Buyers. In August 2003, Ellis took his a position as Vice President of Corporate Planning and Communications where he managed the development of AAFES long range and contingency planning programs, oversight of corporate public affairs and ensured compliance with Department of Defense policy guidance with the goal of preserving and protecting the exchange benefit for soldiers and airmen and their families around the globe. Bob joined the ALA on 31 July 2006 where he continues to serve a role in military resale supporting Exchange, MWR, and Food Service, operations still serving military resale over 51 years continuous service. Ways to connect with Bob**:** You can find more benefits how Branded Riches can help you build your Brand, Product, Business, and Yourself at https://www.BrandedRiches.com   Connect:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/neryk-davydov Branded Riches Audiobook by Neryk Davydov https://www.audible.com/pd/Branded-Riches-Audiobook/B0GCP9MMRB Branded Riches Book https://www.amazon.com/Branded-Riches-Increase-Income-Irresistible/dp/1987753836 $5 Free Gift for Creating A New Ovato Wallet    www.ovatoCoin.com  About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Everyone, I am Michael Hingson, the host of Unstoppable Mindset. You've heard my voice for the last 471 episodes, but I'm calling you all out today and asking you to listen to this because we're going to make a special announcement now regarding the next four episodes, starting with 472. We're going to help commemorate the historic events of September 11, 2001. Yes, they're definitely historic, although not necessarily the most positive things that have ever happened. But as many of you may know, I was in the World Trade Center working on September 11, 2001, on the 78th floor of Tower One, and escaped with my guide dog. I've delivered a speech about that, which we put in the first episode of this podcast series back in August of 2021. But this Friday, episode 472 is going to have an updated speech that I delivered just a few years ago at the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival. That festival is a yearly event celebrating different kinds of things that have happened in American history, and I was invited to come and speak, which I did. I'm going to put that speech up for you as episode 472. I think you'll find it enlightening. It'll teach you something about blindness and blind people. It'll tell you my story, and it'll give you some inspiration that I hope you will find helpful. Next Tuesday, september 8, Michelle Abraham is going to interview me. Michelle is with Amplify You, the company that does all of our back office stuff and helps me with the editing and other things regarding the podcast. Michelle owns her own podcast, and she is going to interview me about September 11th and other kinds of things relating to what I've learned and things that have happened over the past 25 years. She's also going to be putting this up on her podcast Amplify You, so you can find us in a lot of different places. On September 11th, I'm going to chat with Bob Ellis. Bob was in the Pentagon on September 11, 2001, and had literally just walked out the door of the Pentagon when the plane crashed into the Pentagon and did the things and the damage that it did, and of course generated all the things that occurred at the Pentagon. On the 15th of September, I'm going to come back and have a conversation with all of you about lessons that I've learned over the past 25 years, and just reminisce a little bit about all of that. While the podcast is occurring on September 11th, I will be actually in Kilgore, Texas, doing a speech about September 11th. So lots of things going on, I hope you listen to these episodes. I hope that you'll tell everyone that you can about them. I really enjoy all of the support that you've given us over the years, and we're going to continue to do things with Unstoppable Mindset. And of course, as always, if you'd like to come on or know anyone who would, please let us know. We're always looking for guests. Thanks very much. We'll see you on Friday with the first of these four episodes. What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. You are listening to us today, or at least I'm assuming you're listening just when this came out. But whenever you're listening, it is today, September 11th, 2026, which is needless to say, a special day. If you have kept up with my podcast from the beginning, you know that I worked in the World Trade Center on September 11th, and ever since then I've been a public speaker, traveling the world, talking about trust, teamwork, leadership, the human-animal bond, and a variety of things. But recently, I met Bob Ellis. Michael Hingson  04:40 Now, Bob, as it turns out, on September 11th worked at the Pentagon, and I have not ever really had the opportunity to talk with someone who was at the Pentagon, especially on September 11th. But we get to chat about that today, and Bob knows our rules, which are basically. He sent me a series of questions that he wants to cover, but we are doing this as a conversation, so we'll probably talk about a lot of the things that he specifically sent. But we can go any old way that Bob wants to go, so that's what we'll we'll make this really fun. And I'm really looking forward to having the opportunity to talk with Bob. So again, welcome to September 11th, and Bob, I want to welcome you to Unstoppable Mindset. We're really glad you're here, Bob Ellis  05:28 Michael. Thank you for inviting me. I know you you've inquired several times, and I've debated it, and and I was just holding it for the right time, and this is the right time-the 25th anniversary of the event. Michael Hingson  05:40 Yeah, it is, and and and as as we've said, if you find anybody who needs a a speaker to come in and speak, let me know. But but for now, we get to chat about you and and hear your story, which I think is the important thing. I think we'll probably talk about both of our stories in the course of the day, no doubt about it. But I really am glad that you are here and that you are able to to talk with us today and and and talk about things. So let's start the way I love to start with people. Let's start at the beginning. Tell me kind of about the early Bob growing up and so on. Let's start with that. Bob Ellis  06:17 Well, I I grew up in let's say grew up until I was four years old. I lived. I was born in Pensacola, Florida. Lived in the Panhandle. Mother and father got divorced, and we moved to Norfolk, Virginia. And it was just my my mother and I until I was 14 years old. And I found out about my dad and found some letters from him and insisted to go see him. And so, between 14 and 15, I made a couple of unauthorized attempts to to make my way to Florida. On the third attempt, I made it, and it was quite a surprise for my father. Ended up living with him and being my closest friend up until I had he had grandkids, we had kids, and so I lived and grew up in the Destin, Fort Worth, Fort Walton area. Went to work, and this is where the story begins. I went to work at Eglin Air Force Base as a as a janitor in a gas station for the Army Air Force Exchange Service, so that I could continue to play high school football and practice, was a great job. It was an opportunity to work with the military, be around the military, and I took great pride in that feeling that that that that while I I wanted to go into the air force and I wanted to fly jets, that opportunity just never presented itself because the Vietnam War was going on and they were banking pilots instead of taking pilots. Anyway, I I ended up staying with the Army Air Force Exchange Service for 34 years. I moved all over the world. I've seen the every AOR and every combat scenario since the Vietnam War. Not in the Vietnam War, but I was in the refugee program, helping with the resettlement back in 1972, 1973. Spent the rest of my career going wherever they sent me, and and and that was from Tokyo, Japan, to to Tuli, Greenland, to California, and ultimately to to Texas. Michael Hingson  08:30 I remember during the Vietnam War, someone called me one day. I was a student at UC Irvine, and there was a refugee camp fairly close to the university, and someone said, and someone said, "There's a blind young man at the sent at the refugee center, and we should go see him. And so we we bought a transistor radio for him and went out to visit with him and spent some time with him, and I never got to see him after that. But I hope I hope he did well. He he seemed like he was doing okay, but he was a little bit lost, needless to say, because it's a whole bunch of people. There are no a lot of people who knew much about blindness and blind people, but I would presume he did reasonably okay. I hope so, but that was the only time I specifically had an involvement with him or anyone at the refugee camps. Later, when I met my wife Karen, she lived, I think, a door down, and she and her parents lived a door down from a Vietnamese couple, and he was a tailor and actually made her wedding dress, which was kind of cool, and so we got to spend a fair amount of time with the Voo's, which was was good, but what's. Interesting for me now, with with now being well so many years later. In November, I will be going to do a speech in Hanoi, so I'm really looking forward to to going over there and and experiencing it. At least it'll be a little bit cooler then than it probably is now. So we'll see, but it'll be it'll be pretty enjoyable to go and again see a different a different part of the world, and I I think we'll be fine. At least that's that's that's the plan. Bob Ellis  10:34 That that that that tour that I had at Eglin Air Force Base with the refugees, will come back to to to 911 2001 and the experiences that I had at that refugee camp replicated in the Pentagon park and lot there in 911. So we'll get to that. I'll explain it further. Michael Hingson  10:56 Yeah, I'm sure it was a a great a great lesson. Where did you do college, or did you Bob Ellis  11:03 went to went to Duke University and the University and the University of Maryland? Michael Hingson  11:10 Okay. Well, at Bob Ellis  11:12 least much of it was correspondence as well, only because I was deployed for for so many years back to back, 17 moves in 34 years. Michael Hingson  11:22 Wow, Duke University. At least you didn't go to one of those other schools in North Carolina. Boy, talk about talk about rivalries and basketball. What a what a group down there. Bob Ellis  11:35 Oh, I know, I know. Michael Hingson  11:38 I once spoke in Kentucky, and the Wildcats were in the NCAA championship that year, and I was asked to speak at an event on the night of the championship. But I was told I had to end by 630. I could not go one second past 630 because the gym I was speaking in was going to clear out. Well, I ended in time so that at 630, what they said was absolutely true. That gym cleared out. Everybody went home to watch the game. Bob Ellis  12:09 That's that's sports. Michael Hingson  12:11 Not sports. It is, but it's okay. I I learned a lot down there and got to meet a number of people, and so it was it was a lot of fun to to do it, and then years later I was in North Carolina when NC State and UNC were playing to see who was going to go into the championship. So again, pretty interesting world, and and sports ruled everything then, so it's okay. It Bob Ellis  12:43 hasn't it hasn't changed at all because my my my daughter I got her graduate studies done at NC State, and it hasn't changed a bit. It's just I'll bet it's just crazy as it's when was 20 3040 years ago, Michael Hingson  12:58 and it shall ever be, won't it? Bob Ellis  13:01 Yeah, yeah. Her undergraduate degree was at University of Texas. This was my son's, and she went on to NC State, and and he went on to medical school in in Houston. Michael Hingson  13:16 Okay. Well, UC Irvine, when I was there, had the championship water polo team, but that's what we had. But they started basketball while I was there, although it wasn't anything huge. But a couple of years ago, they made it to the Sweet 16, and that was kind of fun for UC Irvine. One of these days, it'll go all the way. Bob Ellis  13:40 Yep. Michael Hingson  13:41 Well, anyway, so you you went to college, and and what did you major in? Bob Ellis  13:45 Political science. Michael Hingson  13:47 Okay, political science Bob Ellis  13:48 and business management. With a with my two aspirations, I wanted to. I really wanted to major in in aviation science, but that that wasn't offered. So that's political science and business science, business law. Michael Hingson  14:06 But you were working for the Army Air Force Exchange Service. What is that exactly? Bob Ellis  14:11 Yeah, it's a it's it's it's a non-appropriated funded Service provided all goods. I think of it as the the Walmart or the Target of of the civilian sector, except the Army Air Force Exchange Service has stored everything from stores, every business that you can think of therein, from stores to convenience stores to gas stations to beauty shops and barber shops to dining facilities, franchise Burger Kings, anything that a soldier and his family needs at the base or overseas or in the combat arena, where we were there with it, providing it. It's been a great career. Michael Hingson  14:59 Did you? Do you have any involvement with, especially here in the U.S. the the Randolph Sheppard programs, the blind vending stand operations at any of the facilities? Bob Ellis  15:09 Yep, sure did many many times. We're still working with it. There's there's some issues present right now under the Randolph Shepherd that they're looking at. I don't know what what's going to change, but yes, sir, we were very, very close to that. Michael Hingson  15:24 Yeah, I know there. The current government's looking at it; they want to scale a lot of it back, which would, I think, not be a good thing. I think there's a lot of reasons to keep it, but we'll see. We'll see. We'll see how it goes. But I, the closest I ever came to dealing with anything from AAES was I was invited to speak once at an organizational meeting of the National Property Managers Association in the military. Are you familiar with that? Bob Ellis  15:56 I am. Yes. Michael Hingson  15:57 And when I was asked to come, the Speakers Bureau didn't do a good research job because they told me, "Oh, it's the people who rent apartments and all that. When I got down to the to the event, I will say that the National Property Managers Association certainly serves a nice breakfast. But anyway, the conversation just didn't seem like what I what I was expecting. So I asked somebody, and they told me that the organization was the organization that had complete jurisdiction over anything physical that the government owned, and Bob Ellis  16:30 absolutely Michael Hingson  16:31 that that changed my grass. Sorry, Bob Ellis  16:34 right down to the grass, right down to the grass and the concrete. Michael Hingson  16:37 There you go. Well, it also changed my speech in 10 minutes, but it was fun. They invited me back the next year, so that was good. But it's it's fun when you're you're planning to do a particular speech, and suddenly it turns out it's got to change. It's good to have the flexibility to do that. But I'm I'm glad I had the opportunity to do it, and hopefully we'll have opportunities to do it again, but you have served a lot of different kinds of of services within AAES, and and I assume that's all worked out pretty well. Bob Ellis  17:14 That that worked out very well. Yep, I had I started at the bottom and and climbed as close to the top as I possibly could, but Michael Hingson  17:23 you eventually got the the highest medal that was available for civilians when you retired or after you retired. Bob Ellis  17:31 No, the highest award that I ever received was from my man over the Pentagon 911 support program, which was a nice medoris civilian award. Michael Hingson  17:46 Okay, where is your favorite place to live in the world? Or is that really easy to say? I mean, you've been all over the place and seen a lot of different kinds of places. Don't know how much you got to two of them, but anyway, Bob Ellis  18:00 it wasn't the two places that I that I went overseas, which was Japan and Greenland. Those were the longest tours of my life. Beautiful country in Japan, and and great facilities and support in tuning Greenland. But I would I would guess throughout the United States, I had a great assignment at the Army War College, and I had a great assignment at Travis Air Force Base here in Michael Hingson  18:26 California. Yeah, Bob Ellis  18:28 yeah. Michael Hingson  18:30 I've spoken. Bob Ellis  18:30 My son was born in Japan. He's dual citizen as a result on the Air Force Base, and my daughter was born in California. So it was a great time, mainly because the kids were younger and and and and we were in great climate areas. Michael Hingson  18:48 When people ask me what my favorite place in the United States is, I say everywhere. I I just enjoy meeting people wherever I go in the U.S. It's so many different cultures and customs and ways of doing things. It is so fun to to see all the different places and see how they are. People ask what I like, where I like outside the U.S. And so far, it's been New Zealand. I would say is probably the best, but Japan has to be up there too. I've really enjoyed being in Japan. I've been there a couple times, and I thoroughly enjoyed Bob Ellis  19:23 it. I, I had, I think the most the the greatest thing about the assignments was some of the people I I got to to meet in in my in my tours. One of them would be the Crown Prince of of Thailand, who who is now the king of Thailand, King Rama, got to meet him when he was a pilot, and supported him when when I was at Yokota Air Base, and multiple other celebrities. I I had the opportunity as a kid to attend the funeral. For Douglas MacArthur, and and his his memorial was right across the street in North Virginia from where my mother worked. And 20 years later, I had the opportunity to to meet mrs. Mcarthur, Jean MacArthur, at Gracie Mansion in New York, and I I I wrote protocol. I when it came time for her to to meet me and meet meet her, I got down on one knee and I held her hand and I said, "I want to tell you a little story, ma'am. And she said, "Well, certainly, absolutely. And I told her the story how when the general had died in in 1964, I was required by my my mother to go to the funeral, and the most fascinating person I'd ever seen in my life was herself, and she just got she just turned red. Well, long story short, I was at an army command at Fort Hamilton. The next day, the the group the the installation commander called me over to his office, very angry, but he wanted me to know that I was going to be the first civilian aide for the old lady, which was mrs. Mcarthur, and he had to take one of his lieutenants off. And I got to know the family and and the Mcarthurs as a result of that. So lots of opportunities, just absolutely amazing. 911, and we'll get to it. I got to meet President Bush momentarily, but I I got to meet him and have a short conversation. Michael Hingson  21:32 I got to meet him in 2005. We went to the Oval Office, and we were supposed to have a two minute photo op, but he kept wanting to interact. We ended up talking for about 15 minutes. He kept the Italian ambassador or prime minister waiting, but it was a was a great conversation. I very much enjoyed having the opportunity to meet with him. Bob Ellis  21:53 Yeah, he was remarkable. Michael Hingson  21:54 Yeah, in in so many ways. If Speaker 1  22:00 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  22:33 So that's that's pretty cool. So as you were going around to all these different places, what would you say you were learning. Bob Ellis  22:41 I was learning business. I was learning relationships. I was learning marketing. Pretty much anything that you wanted to do as a general manager or a vice president, the exchanges let you do it. You know, until you got too far gone, and they they reel you back in. But I love being able to run multiple businesses on the installation, and and be accountable for them, and run them at a profit, and and at the end of the day, do great things for military families. Michael Hingson  23:16 Wow! So you um, you you've you've had a lot of challenges and and had to learn a lot of different things. Needless to say, but I would would think that you've you've been able to to keep a lot of that and use it. And you know we've referred to September 11 th, and so let's let's get to around that time. The first thing I would ask, and people have asked me, but you're in a better position in theory than I. Did you have any inkling that something like September 11th was going to happen? Bob Ellis  23:53 Well, actually, September 11th was was happening. I left for work about 4:30 in the morning. I lived out in the suburbs in Centerville, Virginia, and it was one of those days that you just wished you didn't have to go to work. It was the as the sun was coming up, it had a little cold breeze to it. The skies were blue. It was just one of those days that you just wanted to sit out in the yard and and relax or go bicycling, whatever. But I did my duty and I drove in to the Washington D.C. area and reported to my office on time, which was right around 5o'clock. My staff showed up around six and some at seven, and my secretary came in, and I don't know exactly what time it was, but it was shortly after, right around 9o'clock in Eastern Time, when the first airplane had hit the the trade center. Michael Hingson  24:49 Yeah, Bob Ellis  24:49 846-940-6846, Yes, right, 846. Yeah, and and so I I went in to look at the. The the television monitor standing there it was just her and I at the time and and and I said that's not an accident and she says how do you know that I said look at the skies that was an airliner they were talking about it was a little small private aviation well I'm a pilot I've been a pilot for 40 years 41 years I knew exactly, you know, that that where it was, what it was doing, and that wasn't a it wasn't an accident. And and my inkling was is that I was in a in rented space in Arlington, Virginia, because we had been moved out because the wedge that got attacked was the one that was still under construction. My office had not been completed there, and and I had a meeting in that wedge at 9o'clock that morning. And my secretary said to me, "You know, Bob, the Pentagon is next. And I paused for a minute and I looked at her and I said, "How in the world could you even imagine that, you know that that that's a fortress? Who would be crazy enough to attack the Pentagon? And she says, I I just I don't want you to go over, you know, just just just do it by phone, which I I probably could have done. And I said, No, I'm I'm going to go over there. If they're going if they're going to attack the Pentagon, I'm going to go down with it, and that was kind of my philosophy. So, in the back of my mind, seeing that airplane hit the Trade Center and her telling me that certainly made me wonder if it wasn't a possibility. Michael Hingson  26:33 So, you didn't. You don't think that anyone, and I've never heard of any such, but that anyone had any advance notice? There wasn't chatter. There wasn't anything that made people suspect what might be getting ready to happen. Bob Ellis  26:47 No, I I I think that is the the worst our country has ever been off guard. It reminds me of you know the the attack on Hawaii and that you know in in Pearl Harbor. We were completely unprepared, and I thought we were completely unprepared on 911. And in fact, after the attack, I knew we were unprepared when I saw the two jets fly over with no armament on the wings. So no, I don't think anybody had any idea. Michael Hingson  27:18 Well, the other side of it, and I've talked about this in in some talks I've given. I talk a lot about trust and teamwork, and like it or not, one of the things that I observe is you had 19 terrorists who functioned well enough as a team that they didn't talk about it. They didn't let anything come out. So no matter how much armament or whatever we might have had, I'm not sure whether we could have predicted that on September 11th, what occurred was going to happen. Bob Ellis  27:49 You know, all the indicators were there. You know, those those 19 trained at private airports, and they and during their training, it was it was reported multiple times that all they were interested in was taking off, not landing. I mean, first clue, you know. Okay. Why would you just be interested? He's taking off an airplane, and and I always found that very curious, and I'd heard it several times. That should have set alarm bells off. Should have. It didn't. Apparently, it did. Michael Hingson  28:20 Good point, and you know the the thing is though that, as as you pointed out, who would have thought that anybody would attack the Pentagon, the fortress that it was? Who Bob Ellis  28:33 yeah, Michael Hingson  28:33 who would have thought? So again, you can only go by what you got, and so nobody, I think, would have ever imagined that. Well, of course, the first plane hit the World Trade Center, and at first, people didn't really know what happened because there were really not very many people who who saw it. In fact, we only have the few photos that were taken by the French photographers who were there for something else, but then a little after nine, the second plane hit, and that changed the dynamic and changed the perspective a lot. Although a bunch of people who started seeing it on TV thought it was just a movie, and it wasn't true, but the second plane hitting changed the attitudes. I think for most people, and that's when people knew something was going on. Bob Ellis  29:24 Yeah, I didn't know anything about the second trade center. I had left my office in Crystal City, and I had headed to the Pentagon. And the meeting, the meeting that I had was with the Army Personnel Chief and several other folks. And as it turned out, that is exactly the window that the airplane flew into. That was ground zero for the for the for the target for the airplane going in just above the first floor for the Pentagon. So I didn't know anything. I was I was trapped at that point. I was trapped. Couldn't go um. Wouldn't go um. Didn't want to go um. And I had lived in New York City for five years, and I was my biggest. I was always impressed by the New York City Fire Department. I mean, they're they're just walking heroes if you've ever seen them. I mean, they were like they were like giants when you got next to them, and that they would they were just superhumans. And I always wondered upon the top floors how in the world you would get a fire put out at the top of the World Trade Center, and and I did not know until two days later when I made it home. That was my first question to my family: How did they get the the fire out at the top of the World Trade Center? And I and and it was repeated to me centers, and I said, What are you talking about? Centers in my family, and they said, "Bob, the World Trade Centers are gone. I said, "I don't understand. How could they be gone? And that was that. That was you know two days later that I found out about that. It was quite a shock to me to learn what it actually while I was on on the Pentagon mission. Michael Hingson  30:58 Well, when the first plane hit. Well, in the second plane, the firefighters were going up the stairs carrying all their equipment, and I had had had known about that and asked people, "Well, why are you or would you be carrying equipment? Because I met I I didn't meet the FDNY people ahead of the World Trade Center attacks, but I did meet with other people to learn about emergency preparedness and so on because I felt as the leader of an office, it was my job to know because I wasn't going to be able to read signs, and I love information, so I was trying to learn all I could, and they told me that where would if you if you had equipment stored in the in the towers, then people would go to it. Firefighters would go to it and get the the equipment. What floor do you put it on? Because no matter what floor you put it on, what if the fire broke out one floor below? You know, you can't get to the equipment. So the only way they could get up the stairs to fight the fires was to carry all of the equipment with them, yep, yep. Not enough is said about those guys in history. No, and I met a number of them coming up the stairs as we were going down, and they wanted to escort me down, and I didn't want them to do that because I knew they were a team, and I I pushed back pretty hard and said, no, you guys go up and we'll go down unless we can help you fight the fires, and they said no. The reason they eventually let me go down without any assistance was I had a friend with me who could see, and I said, "Look, David can see. Don't worry about us. And David and they turned to David and they said, "You're with him. And David said, "Yeah, leave him alone. He's fine. So we went on down, and they went up. I don't know whether the people we interacted with made it down or perished up above. It was about 10 after 10 after nine or so when we got to the 30th floor where we met them. So it was another hour and almost 20 minutes before the tower collapsed, but I don't know where the firefighters were, or how many people from the groups that we interacted with perished, or if they all made it out. I don't know, but Bob Ellis  33:12 yep, I I memorized all those numbers. You know, 189 between the airplane and the Pentagon, 200 injured, but 189. 189 total were 64 on the airplane, 125 in the Pentagon, and I'll never forget those numbers. Yeah, I'll never forget the time. I looked at my watch at 9:17, and and I have to tell you that on 9/11, I always sit very quietly until I get past 917, not 937. I'm sorry, 937. Michael Hingson  33:48 So Bob Ellis  33:48 in the morning. Michael Hingson  33:49 So, how close were you to where the plane came into the Pentagon? Bob Ellis  33:56 About 300 yards. When when it was clear that the meeting wasn't going to happen because the air traffic control system had been shut down. They released us to go back to our our offices, and I was going out the front door. I left about 930. It was supposed to start at nine 930. The generals said we'll just reconvene, and and I agreed. And from his office on on the south portico, I was walking out the front door. Literally, I heard the engines spool up. I had been in the AOR in rail combat munitions, and and I've heard cruise missiles, and and I could hear this one spinning up, and I thought it was a cruise missile, and so when it hit when it hit the building, it was just it was just a horrendous sound. But my first impression was to run to it to see what happened, what what what caused that, and there was nothing there. It was just four or five cars burning and smoke billowing out of the building. And and the the rest turned into a you know a rescue and a a recovery. Michael Hingson  35:08 AOR is what Bob Ellis  35:10 the area of responsibility. Michael Hingson  35:13 Okay, area of responsibility. Okay, Bob Ellis  35:16 yeah, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, wherever we are, it's it's N A O R, and that's your A O R. That's state. That's where you are. So that that's where I encountered first first and only live person coming out of the building, and which was a which was a really big surprise. But I knew that there was something that I I had to do, and and one of the things was to, if he needed assistance, getting him assistance. And there were several people. He was he was he was burned third degree burns over his whole body. He lived. I said one prayer was for him. And as it turned out, he became a a great ambassador. Turned out to be a great friend, and is actually back in the Pentagon to this day, just steps away from his old office as a civilian, went went back on a presidential appointment. Michael Hingson  36:09 So, you mentioned the general a while ago. Was did he survive? Bob Ellis  36:15 No, he was the he was the highest ranking person that we lost in in the entire encounter, and it was the entire office was just instantly vaporized. So he did not survive. Michael Hingson  36:33 Well, so you heard the engines revving up, and you went after you heard the explosion and so on. You went over to see what was going on, and then what did you do? Because it certainly had to be a major surprise and a shock by any standard. Bob Ellis  36:49 Yeah, I went that side of the building, saw the hole in the building, kind of convinced myself it was a cruise missile, but I never heard such a loud engine noise. As it turned out, it was it was two big engines off of a 757 200, and so I immediately tried to figure out you know what can I do? What should I do? Should I even be here? And that's when I saw the colonel coming out of the building, and I was able to walk with him and four others over to the the road, the Washington Boulevard that goes around the Pentagon, and and I sat down on the telephone pole, a light pole that the airplane hit going in. Now I'm a pilot, and and I have to tell you to take an airplane going at Mach point eight seven, and hit a target, hit the building, and not hitting the ground was just absolutely amazing to me. So as they got the colonel into an SUV and and and got him out of the the scene, I sat there. Just it was almost like a movie I was watching. The triage was being set up. The Pentagon was burning. The emergency services units were starting to show up, and we had very intermittent phone capability. And I had I had a a friend, my my the commander that I worked for in Dallas at the time. This secretary's husband was a bodyguard for Secretary Rumsfeld, and and Secretary Rumsfeld was actually carrying litter patients, carrying people out of the debris area and out of the offices. He was actually helping people, and he he realized that something needed to be done. So he gave Jerry a note, a piece of paper. We called them snowflakes, but it was a tablet, and he had listed what needed to be done and what needed to be done now. And Jerry found me sitting over there and gave me that that piece of paper, and it had everything listed on it. He wanted a a tactical field operation in place. He wanted it now, not yesterday. He wanted something in the interim, and it was to provide emergency relief supplies. So I I sat down on that telephone pole and I called our our local dist not local our largest distribution center in the world was down in Newport News, and I got the director on the phone and I said, I have an official order from you coming from the Secretary of Defense, and and don't override, don't just just follow my instructions until we can get to the commander at AFIS headquarters, and so I gave him the list. I just gave him the full list of things that we needed to get rolling, and I called another gentleman that was just across the river, the American Logistics Association, which owned all of the brokers and manufacturers, and I gave him a list of stuff that we needed now, like Gatorade boots. the The surface was over 2000 degrees, and the emergency service boots were melting almost upon contact. So I had I had 1000s, hundreds of 1000s of dollars of equipment. And supplies coming in, and we set up the USO tent, put everything in the USO tent. We raided all the stores in the in the Washington D.C. area. I was able to contact the region manager, and I told him, you know, what we needed to take it off the shelf, put it in the back seat of the cars, don't account for it, and get it to me. And that's what we did the entire first night was setting up the USO trailer, and the next morning I had two tactical field tractor trailers coming up the ramp just as the sun was coming up, and they were loaded with supplies, and that's what stayed in place for the next two months. Over $2 million worth of merchandise, emergency recovery type merchandise, everything from linens to the towels to eye wash, and and and we had to actually have some special boots made out of leather for the dogs because the dogs' feet were so it was it was quite an operation. We ended up well running within within 24 hours of the attack, Michael Hingson  41:04 why is it that you are able to stay pretty focused through all of this? Bob Ellis  41:08 I you know I you know I I've often asked that question. I wanted to go home. Alls I could think of is my kids, my wife. What what are they doing? What are they thinking? They're watching this on the news, and I had I had drifted over to which my car was very close, and it was taped off. The parking lot was taped off. It was a crime scene. There was no going anywhere. There was no transportation. If I wanted to walk 40 miles, I guess I could have, but because I couldn't go anywhere, I had to do something there on the scene, so that's that's that's what I did, and and it wasn't until the next day when the phone started working again, our two star in Dallas was able to get through to me on on my BlackBerry, and he wanted to know what the situation was, and and and I told him, and and he said, what what are we going to do? And I explained to him what we had done already, and he says, "How did you do all of that? I said, "I picked up the phone and I told him I was working for Secretary Rumsfeld, and this is the order. And and he says, "How are we going to pay for all of this? I said, "Sir, this is our finest hour. We're not. We're going to donate. These are all donating goods, and and it really was an interesting. I I just I just don't know. I was compelled. He he he ordered me on that second day to go home, and and I said I had no way to go home. And he said go to the motor pool. I'm going to call the motor pool. He had been the commander of the Air Force One Squadron, so he had a lot of connections in Washington, and he he got me a car, and I went home long enough to change clothes and and and to come back out. So it was it was just out of adrenaline, I think. Somebody had to do something, and and everything that I've told you here today is not written anywhere in history. I own every bit of what happened in in in that story, other than some of the people that were working there. Michael Hingson  43:07 What phone did you use that first day? You said you're you're it was the second day or the next day that you're phoned. So how were you able to communicate? Bob Ellis  43:17 We had Blackberries, and and until the networks got completely overrun, we were able to use it. And and so by the second third day, we we had pretty consistent communication, because the the the commander called me back that same morning, and and he said, you know, he said, how come you haven't been home? And I explained to him, and he says, "Will you do me one favor? And I said, "I would. He said, "Will you go back into the building? Said, "Sir, the building's on fire. He says, "Well, well, you get in the front, and I'm looking at it. He was looking at it on television, and the military clothing store was in the very front, within 100 feet, probably of that door that I went out of. And he says, "Would you see if our people survive, and if the store itself survived? It was sitting near the the area. I went in the store. I went into the building, into the burning building, and was able to look in the door, and I could see that the the room was full of smoke, and the door was locked. So I told him I would assume that our people made it out, alive and okay. And they say that was a, and they did, and they absolutely did. And in fact, everybody that that that that had any kind of supervisory capability around the Beltway, they volunteered to come over and work for me and and operating that facility for 2024 hours a day, seven days a week. Wow! So and not and not to shorten the the question, I wasn't there, but because of what I was doing in the in the Pentagon, my old homestead was at Fort Hamilton. Fort Hamilton picked up the same thing and went over to the Trade Center area, and they gave them a place to put a mobile. Food truck, and they brought supplies in and pretty much supported the firefighters and the and the and the police there. So so we had quite an operation going for a long time. Michael Hingson  45:11 Yeah, and and needed to, but it was interesting and commendable that in both places people were able to focus, and were able to carry out missions. I know at the World Trade Center when the two towers collapsed. Of course, it was it was unexpected, but we know now, of course, why they collapsed. It wasn't that the planes hit; it's that they were they were full of what 36,000 pounds of jet fuel each, and that exploding jet fuel is what damaged the infrastructure of the buildings to cause them to be able to collapse. But as well as at the Pentagon, but very quickly people were able to start to move and deal with issues and put procedures in place that were able to, I'm sure, keep more people from perishing and keep kept more people being able to focus throughout the whole the whole sequence of events. It it certainly was very scary, but it is something that that people like you were able to do. I know for me, the reason I was able to focus was because I had learned what to do in an emergency at the World Trade Center. I spent time with people and I learned how the whole building was structured, so I knew when the building tipped, why it tipped, and and things like that. You Bob Ellis  46:40 felt it. You you felt it. Michael Hingson  46:43 Oh yeah. Oh my god. We moved probably at least 20 feet, and then it came back, and oh my Speaker 2  46:48 god, it Michael Hingson  46:48 got vertical again. It got vertical again, and then a few seconds later, it dropped about six feet because the expansion joints went back to their normal configuration. But Bob Ellis  46:59 we uh we we knew from 937 till about 5o'clock that evening there would be no more survivors. It was over, and and and the dogs were getting depressed because they were they were they were not cadaver dogs. They were recovery dogs, and they were used to fight. And we we actually had ceremonies for the dogs every day, where we sewed flags onto their collars, and they had special water and special food. So they played a big, big role in morale, mine especially. Michael Hingson  47:33 And at the same time, I know people had to do drills to keep the dogs focused because they weren't able to find people, as you said, so they had to do things to give them something to find to keep them happy, which was was so important. Bob Ellis  47:50 Yeah, that we had two two tractor trailers lined up. It was just just two 300 feet from where you went into the damaged area of the Pentagon, and those dogs and their handlers would get up underneath those trailers and sleep, and they would play with the dogs. We actually had some carpets brought out, tarps brought out, and that's kind of where that was kind of their headquarters during 911. We had to make it up as we went along, and and the other interesting part of this story is in 1972 at the at the refugee camp, I was sleeping in the back of a van because there was just no way to go home. It was too it was too far to drive home to turn around and come back at 8o'clock the next morning, and I heard somebody knocking at the door, and and and I and I opened up the door, and it was a military colonel in uniform, and there was a civilian standing there with him. And he says, "Are you part of this operation? And I said, "Yes, sir, I am. He said, "Who are you with? And I said, "The Army Air Force Exchange Service. And and he says, "You're not provided any other facilities. This, I said, that was my choice. And as it turned out, I was speaking to Secretary Rumsfeld during his first administration as Secretary of Defense, and it was interesting that when he found out that what I did in in that program, I won the Indo Indo China Award for service, and then of course you you move ahead to to 2001, and we we knew each other. I had briefed him several times, and we we knew each other in the Pentagon. And that day, he knew that I would know what to do for the support role, and that's why he sent the letter up. And as it turned out, when he retired and and left the Pentagon, he was on a book tour, and and the the general secretary and myself got an invite to come to the book tour with him and and have lunch with him. And he handed me a book and he said, "I want you to have this, but I don't want you to open it up until you, Bob. I don't want you to open it up till you get home. I don't want you to give it to your wife. And and it was like this. Sure, I'm not not a problem, and so I got I got home. You know, this is this is 10 years later, and handed the book to her, and I said, "Open it up. I'm not wasn't allowed, and there's a nice thank you page on the front from Secretary Rums for allowing him to use me on 9/11, and you just you just that's the best reward that I could have ever ever expected. A guy that I just idolized to do that. Michael Hingson  50:26 When you got home, so you weren't able to talk to your wife before you got home, or did you ever get communication so you could call her? Bob Ellis  50:33 No, I didn't. I when I finally got the phone back up and running and got in the car. I had lost the battery, so I said, "I'm gonna be home in in an hour. I'll just be there. But General Wax called up, and she answered the phone. She went. She went sometime during that day and pulled the kids out of the private school, brought them home. She could see my car. It was a yellow SUV, and she could see it in the South parking lot in the news choppers going around. She said that was my car where my spot was, and General Wax got her on the phone and she and and she answered the phone and he said this is C J Wax and she thought that was the call. She thought that was it, and she alls I could do was drop to my knees and and and C J said and it's it's okay. I've ordered him to come home. He's all right. He's running. He's running a a program for us for for recovery. And if he's not there, he should be there shortly. And then by the time I got there, I got to the front step. I'm asking the question about the World Trade Center, how they got the fire out, and I was ordered that I could not go in the house because I smelled like smoke. So, so two minutes before that, I was the most important person in the world, and and then all of a sudden, I was I was back to Bob, and I wasn't going to wear that that suit in the house to to smoke it. So anyway, that's that's how she found out. He he called her up. I asked him. I think I asked him if he would get in touch with her at our last conversation, and he did. Michael Hingson  52:06 Soon after both towers collapsed, like a minute or so later, I called and got through to my wife Karen. I had talked with her before we left our office, and then when we got downstairs, I couldn't get through to her because the circuits were busy, and it was obvious that everyone we learned later was saying goodbye to loved ones, and so the circuits were busy. So after both towers collapsed, I was able to get through to her, and as I tell people, there were tears on both sides of the phone at the when that conversation started, but she was the first one who told us how two aircraft had been crashed into the World Trade Center towers, one to the Pentagon, and at that time, the fourth one was apparently still missing over Pennsylvania, and of course, then it crashed at Shanksville. Bob Ellis  52:52 I love it. Michael Hingson  52:54 Yeah, but we, you know, we talked, so she knew I was okay. Then a friend of ours, Tom Painter, who had been a friend of Karen's at high school out in California, but Tom, over the years, had ended up moving to New Jersey. He came down to stay with her, not knowing until he arrived whether I was in the office that day or out with a customer or what was going on. And of course, then she told him, and so he drove her to the train station to pick me up. When, when I got back out to Westfield, we went home. And you talk about with with dogs. We got in the house, and I took Roselle's harness off because I was going to take her out, and she would have none of it. She ran off, grabbed her favorite tug bone and started playing tug of war with my retired guide dog Linny, and I talked to the veterinarians at Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael the next day, and they said, "Did anything threaten her? And I said, "No, not directly. And they said, "That's why she ran off because it was over. Nothing threatened her. Bob Ellis  53:58 Comfortable. Michael Hingson  53:59 She, they don't. Dogs don't do what if like we do, and so she was comfortable. She was happy. She wanted to play, and then then she did go out. But by the same token, the the whole point was that she was able to deal with with all of it and was able to to focus. Then we got her outside and and came back in, and she ate and and all that. But the the the thing is that she focused all day, and and she did a a wonderful job. And the reason that she focused and did so well was mainly because I worked at keeping her focus by telling her every chance I got. You're a good girl. What a good dog! Good dog. You're doing a great job. Keep going. I did that all the way down the stairs in the World Trade Center, and I was very deliberate about that because I knew she had to sense the fear and what was going on, and I wanted her to know that I was okay and I was going to be there for. Her, which is of course what teamwork and support is all about. You understand that very well. You you proved it in so many ways. I kept working with Roselle and kept her focused, and you know it all it all really went well. I still think one of the most relevant things for me in the World Trade Center. I went down the stairs with a guy named David Frank. David was from our corporate office in California, and David and I were going to be conducting sales seminars that day, teaching some resellers how to sell our products. And we got down to about the 50th floor, so David was there to talk about the the pricing and so on. I was going to do the majority of the presentation because I was going to be their technical contact, anyway, and we got to about the 50th floor, going down, and suddenly David said, "Mike, we're going to die. We're not going to make it out of here. And as I tell people, since I got a teaching credential, I had learned all about the secrets of how to yell at students. So I just said, "Stop it, David. If Roselle and I can go down these stairs, so can you. And he then immediately said that I brought him out of his spunk, and he told me that later as well. But what he told me was that he wanted to walk a floor below me on the stairs and shout up to me everything that he was seeing. He had to take his mind off of what was going on, and so he asked if I cared, and I said, "No, go ahead. That's what you need to do. That's fine. So I got like down to the 48th floor, and he yelled, "47th floor, Mike. All's clear here. Going on down. So we went down several floors that way. Eventually, I got to 45, and he was 44th floor. This is where the Port Authority cafeteria is not stopping. And the reason I mention it is because I think what David did is one of the unsung things that is so important from September 11th. He kept shouting up to me everything that he saw, but the reality is, anyone in the sound of his voice heard that there was someone who was okay going down the stairs, and he had to keep panic out of people's senses for so many individuals, because they just heard him, Mike, 43rd floor, all's good here. Going on down the stairs, all the way down the stairs. He had to have been able to keep so many people focused because he was able to keep his mind off of what was going on by shouting to me, and I think that that's so important, and so I'm. I always tell that story. I've been telling it for many years now because I want people to know what he did to keep so many people focused going down the stairs, and he had to have done that. Bob Ellis  57:31 Well, you know, I have. That's that's the first I've heard that, and and and and I read everything that I followed your story very closely, as well as the colonel who I was so close to, but there there are a couple of stories that are just never mentioned, not talked about, and one of them where we had to do every day. There was an update that the military gave the families an update as to what is happening, what was found, what was recovered, what to expect, and they would bring the kids in to listen to these brutal military briefings. I mean, just you know, these were these were soldiers, these were these were combat folks, and this is the way they briefed. And the therapy dogs were brought in, and there wasn't but about a dozen of them, and I will never forget not only the kids on the floor with the arms around those dogs, but some of the adults were as well. And I thought, what what a moment! That was the most touching moment of my entire life witnessing that. I mean, I could have done without it, but it was it was a very special moment. And then the the other thing that the world doesn't know about is on the second day, I got a I got a phone call from Secretary Rumsfeld's office that the VA was completely out of coffin flags. We had nothing in inventory to to cover the remains or the caskets for burial, and what could I do? And and right right from the Pentagon parking lot, I I called one of the buyers that bought American flags in Dallas, and then I asked her who do you get flags from, and she says it's American Flag Company. I'll give them credit for that, and and I said you need you need to get their entire inventory. We need to get it flown in, whatever expenses cover it, and get them here. The Pentagon doesn't have them, and New York doesn't have them. And those flags came in. They were they were there about that midnight that that that night. Now boxed up, thrown in the bag box, whatever tape they were bound, but everybody that came out later, you know, the recoveries as we got deeper into the debris, that had a had a flag that that came that came from us in the as well as at the Pentagon, and they put two very big special flags in there. I mean, like you see flying over a car dealer. And they hung that on the side of the Pentagon. And if you look at any of the any of the news willers of that time, it was on day two that flag was hanging that that came in with the rest of the other flags. So it was it was quite impressive. You never know what the next moment was going to bring you on you know from my side and and and can I meet the challenge? That was what I constantly worry about. How could I let any of this down? And I've got to do something. And and we were making it up as we went along. Michael Hingson  1:00:33 Yeah, that's all you could do. And so when I go back to Bob Ellis  1:00:37 to to this to this day, you know, we go back. They've got 184 markers. I don't know how many people attend it, but it's it's right in that zone, right outside the building, in that grassy area where they they they've made that memorial. And 184 people, to include I think two infants, are are memorialized there forever, which is very touching. It was a that was a hard place to go back to. Still was New York City when I went to it because I'd never I had never been 20 years 20 years yet 18 years before I ever went to to New York City to see the recovery there. I've never I've not been to the to the to the Pennsylvania field. I plan to go. I want to go. Just hadn't been convenient to get there, but but if I do that, I will have seen all all the sites. Michael Hingson  1:01:26 Yeah, I haven't been to Pennsylvania either. In 2017, I did make it to the World Trade Center Museum. In well, so we moved out of Westfield, and I moved back to California in late January, beginning of February of 2002, to work for Guide Dogs for the Blind and and speak from there. And traveled around and speak. Karen was there for a couple more months selling our home, and then she came out. But in May of 2002, Roselle was going to be honored by Hart's Mountain, the pet food and pet supply company. So, so we went back to New York, and while we were there, I met one of the police officers with with one of the service with one of the rescue dogs that that had been around the World Trade Center, and he arranged for us to get in a vehicle and drive down into the pit that was where the World Trade Center was, and they had built an artificial, well, a temporary road, and they were bringing things up, but we got to go down to what would have been the seventh sublevel, the bottom of the tower, and it was just a for me just imagining it standing in that dirt area in a hole seven stories deep and remembering what what it was like, and then in 2017 I went to the World Trade Center Museum and got to spend a little bit of time there, and of course everything had been rebuilt. The reflecting pool was there, and so on. But it was nothing like what I remembered from having been in the World Trade Center, and I walked around with someone who was able to be aware and describe what was where we were and what was above us, or what part of the building we were in as we walked through the complex. But of course, it was totally different. So it was it was such a strange feeling to experience all of that. But we did it, you know. And so now I've been to the museum, and actually there is a there's an animal exhibit in the basement, and Roselle's collar is is part of that exhibit. We donated that to oh Bob Ellis  1:03:50 really, oh really, oh God, I I was I was thinking that when I asked you that question earlier today, and I was thinking about that that has got to be remarkable, you know that that that's what touched me so much at the period. That the fact that the two of you were such a team, and I read everything that newspapers printed and watched. I guess there was some there was some CBS specials and so forth too, where you were interviewed, and it was it was just it was just absolutely amazing. Michael Hingson  1:04:21 Well, it is. you know, it is a an awe-inspiring sort of thing. And you know, people always say, you know, don't you feel guilty about surviving when so many people didn't? And and I said, no, I I didn't have any control over that. But what I do have control over is having been a survivor. What am I going to do about it? It's my responsibility to decide how I'm going to deal with moving forward after something like that. And of course, the opportunity opened to travel and speak, and so I've been doing it ever since. And I believe my job is. Is to educate people about what happened on September 11th, and let them know t

A diagnosis can change your life, but it does not have to decide what comes next. My guest Paul Bugeja has built a life shaped by curiosity, career change, travel, creativity, and a determination to keep moving forward. Paul lives with facioscapulohumeral muscular dystrophy, or FSHD, a condition he calls his “dark angel.” We talk about how disability has influenced his choices without defining them, why staying active matters to him, and how personal agency has helped him face uncertainty without becoming trapped by fear. Paul also shares his path from acting and writing into journalism and digital media, where he now works as a quizmaster. We explore disability advocacy, media accessibility, the role of AI in journalism, and the danger of losing critical thinking. Paul's story reminds us that resilience is not about denying challenges. It is about understanding them while continuing to choose how we live. Highlights: 01:10 – How moving often helped Paul learn to adapt. 12:15 – How a gym visit led to his FSHD diagnosis. 20:39 – Why disability gave Paul a stronger drive to live fully. 22:53 – How knowledge of his condition gave him more agency. 38:35 – Why accessible media still has room to improve. 45:57 – How staying present helps Paul manage worry and fear. About the Guest: Working as a quizmaster for a major media organisation isn't somewhere I could have predicted I'd end up professionally, but, then again, life has taken so many twists and turns it doesn't surprise me this is where I currently find myself. Despite early aspirations to be an actor, I completed a double degree in Arts and Commerce at the University of Melbourne, with the final year spent on exchange at UC Berkeley, California. On my return to Australia, not to be denied, the ever-persistent actor in me got me admission to the prestigious Victorian College of the Arts Drama School: the decade or so following saw me immersed in the challenging but exciting life of the struggling actor. This period was also the launching pad into studies in writing, editing, journalism and screenwriting, which I did as I worked in book publishing and wrote half a dozen books, even as I edged into the rapidly evolving professional world of content, digital marketing and journalism. Throughout this entire time, I've lived alongside and managed my “dark angel”—a diagnosis of facioscapulohumeral muscular dystrophy—which has only served to galvanise me further to live a life less ordinary along the road less travelled … And that has made all the difference. Ways to connect with Paul**:** LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/peebee/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi, everyone. I'd like to thank you once again for coming to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. And if you're new to the podcast, we hope you enjoy our episode today. We're glad you're here wherever you may happen to be. Today we are communicating a long way away. We're communicating with Melbourne, Australia, to Paul Bugeja, and Paul is fondly known as a quizmaster. We're going to have to find out more about that, but he's had a lot of interest in acting and media and such things as that, and has had clearly a pretty adventurous life. And again, I'm sure we're going to hear a lot about a lot of that today. So, Paul, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset. We're really glad you're here. Paul Bugeja  01:44 Thank you for having me, Michael. Michael Hingson  01:46 So why don't we start? I love to do this with the early Paul, kind of growing up and how things all got started. If you remember back that far, or at least as far back as you remember, or what you were told anyway. Paul Bugeja  01:59 You know, pretty standard like childhood story for me. Grew up in the green leafy sort of suburbs of Melbourne. You know, did all the things that kids do in their growing up years. My my mother actually divorced my father quite young for me, so that was a little bit of a a critical sort of point for a child to sort of, you know, have to grapple with, but um, it was pretty smooth, and you know, um, it didn't really disrupt my childhood, except it meant that I moved around a lot when I was quite young. So I probably moved about seven or eight times by the time I was maybe eight years old. Um, but I think, in a way, that that that sort of has worked for me because it meant that even as a young child, I had to learn to adapt and change and evolve very quickly. Particularly when it came to meeting people, and you know, as a child, obviously making friends-that's one of the trickiest parts as a kid sometimes. So I think that actually stood me in good stead in in that regard, yeah. Michael Hingson  03:04 Well, I I didn't have to move a whole lot growing up. We moved from Chicago to California when I was five and stayed in the same house since college. I have moved a bunch of times, but those things happen. I understand what you're saying. I'm I'm used to it, but am am of the opinion that I'd rather not move again. It is a lot of work to move, and now also it's just me. My wife passed away two almost two and a half years ago, so I don't want to pack and move again. But yeah, well, we're in a house that we built, and and so we built it really around her because she's in a wheelchair her whole life. So it's an accessible house, but it's a very comfortable house. So I I have no complaints, and and the dog and the cat seem to like it as well. So we're here. Paul Bugeja  04:01 It's a win for everyone, and I think look, that's that's a really interesting. I had this very similar conversation with a friend yesterday about there's a time to put down roots and there's a time to be a you know a rolling stone, and and for some people that's at different times in their life, you know. So I I can understand why you would have chosen to find your comfy spot to settle into and enjoy. Michael Hingson  04:23 Well, and I have a good mortgage rate and all that, so yeah, we're happy with with things the way they are. And as long as the dog and the cat are happy, I can't complain a bit. Paul Bugeja  04:33 Excellent, excellent. Michael Hingson  04:34 But but now you're and and you you're not moving as much around anymore. Paul Bugeja  04:40 Sort of the opposite, actually. I think, like, to to go back to what we were originally discussing. Like, I think having moved so much as a younger person has meant I've lived a life that's almost constantly moving. Like, there certainly have been periods where I've lived for reasonably long periods in the one place, but particularly over the past. We maybe 10 to 12 years or so. I've moved like literally maybe 10 to 12 times. Like it's becoming, Michael Hingson  05:09 it Paul Bugeja  05:10 almost becomes a bit addictive. Sort of the ability to to be transportable when your professional life allows you and your personal life allows you as well. Michael Hingson  05:18 Yeah, I can understand that. For me, I don't want to go through all the rigors of packing and finding a new home and all that, so we're good. But but it it's okay because I can go anywhere from here, and so that works out pretty well. So I'm I'm content, and that that's the way it it should be. So we'll see how it all goes. But I'm glad that you did well, so you grew up, had kind of a normal life, even though you moved around a lot. Yeah, did all the things that that that kids do growing up, and so on. And where did you go to college, or did you? Paul Bugeja  05:53 Yeah, so I my original, I've I was a bit of a perpetual student for probably you know the first several decades as an adult, my original degree was from the University of Melbourne, which is one of the sort of larger universities in both Melbourne and Australia, and I did a double degree in arts and commerce. But you know, I had long wanted to be an actor, and so originally, like when I finished high school, my my intention was to audition for drama school. But my mother very wisely convinced me to go to university first, and then check that out. And if I didn't like it, then maybe audition for drama school a bit later on. And it was, as mothers can be on most occasions, very sagely advice from her, because the thing that she wasn't aware of was that even though I I definitely enjoyed the academic aspect of my studies at MLB Uni, it has a very strong theater department as well, and very big names have actually been through there and gone on to bigger and better things, namely Kate Blanchett. She was one of my colleagues back in the day. So you know, it was a it was a proving ground for talent. And so I did a lot of theater during my my studies at the University of Melbourne while completing the academic side as well. So I never quite lost that sort of underlying desire to maybe go on and and study acting and maybe do some acting. I actually completed the final year of my degree at Cal at UC Berkeley, which was an amazing experience, and sort of also launched me into the next part of my life. So that that was at a time when you know, like I think in a lot of ways, more and more students were traveling between countries to study. It was becoming a real thing to study overseas, so it was such an amazing experience to finish at Cal. Michael Hingson  07:48 So, do you keep in touch with Kate at Paul Bugeja  07:52 all? Haven't seen Kate in probably maybe 20 years or so. We kept in contact during the beginning of her career, of course, and then you know that life has taken her to such places that it's almost impossible to keep Michael Hingson  08:07 touch, right? Paul Bugeja  08:08 That's right. But you know, I dare say, if I think she's probably maintained the sort of personality and character that she had when I knew her, which would mean that if I bumped into her on the street and I said hello and gave her a bit of a nudge about where we knew each other from. She'd be the first one to lean into that and and you know be quite happy to reminisce on old times as you know she's not an aloof sort of person. I think that's my feel about her, even given her amazing success. Michael Hingson  08:37 I've never had that impression of her either, so I I'm with you. Well, that's pretty cool. What What took you to Berkeley for your last year? Paul Bugeja  08:45 Yeah, so I actually started working during my studies on campus at the university, and I worked in the international student office. So I was dealing with a lot of incoming study abroad and exchange students, which meant I began to have a real desire to do the same thing myself, and initially I was looking at a couple of other universities like Georgetown. I think NYU was one of the options, and I actually met a guy from Cal who was like, "You should come to Berkeley and study. It's an amazing institution. You'll love California. It's so similar to Australia, and I'd I'd I'd actually been to California before my first overseas trip when I was 19, and so I had a taste of California already. So initially, I was looking at the whole sort of Cal system, the whole you know UC system. So I looked at UCLA, UC San UCSJ maybe and anyway yeah and and then I fell and I fell in Berkeley as the final one just because what a great city to live outside of you know San Francisco's such a beautiful city and and yeah so I ended up spending an entire year there which was just like you know life defining. Michael Hingson  09:57 What'd your mom think of that? Paul Bugeja  10:00 Yeah, typical of mum's. There was a lot of tears at the airport, but you know, and this was you know like at a time when social media was really not even happening, so it was all about the phone calls regularly. But she was happy. She's I'm very lucky in that, even though I'm an only child, mum's not a clingy a clingy mum, you know, she has always encouraged me to just go out and do everything that I possibly can, and and she would never, she would rarely, you know, get get in the way of me living out my life and my dreams. Michael Hingson  10:33 Do you still? Is she still here? Paul Bugeja  10:35 She is. Yep, she's um 78, so she's you know I'm still a youngish older person, and even though we don't, we sort of you know like see each other as much as maybe I'd like because we don't live in the same place. You know, we we talk every two days or so on the phone, and I stay in regular contact. And yeah, it's it's still a very very strong relationship. Michael Hingson  10:56 That's cool. That that's a good thing though. So you you went to Berkeley. You were here. You were out here in California for a year, and then what happened? Paul Bugeja  11:05 Well, I actually I bounced back to Australia, feeling very encouraged to to follow my acting pursuits because I I did a couple of shows at when I was at Cal. I did one drama class as well in the drama department, you know, made some lifetime friendships and and felt very connected to myself as an actor again. And so, even though originally my plans were to apply to become a diplomat through the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the acting thing was a bit too strong. So I came back and and felt a little not torn, but certainly I had to I had to weigh up the competing desire to want to be an actor against the fact that I had a great degree that I could maybe go on and do something completely different with. So in fact, I spent a year thinking about that and ended up quite on a different track and enrolled in a master's of environmental studies, which you know was something that interested me definitely. And but decided that I would, in addition to drama school as well, which I did do, and I got into. So I did one year of that master's, and then I went on to study at the Victorian College of the Arts, which is one of the big three drama schools in Australia, and so I finally got to that took that circuitous route to drama school, despite my mum's earlier advice, and she was happy because you know I got there under my own auspices in terms of I'd made a decision as an adult to finally get there, rather than maybe as an excited teenager who you know could obviously do so many things, and so I had both the academic degree, and now I was into a program that I'd always wanted to sort of be involved with. Michael Hingson  12:49 Right. Well, and and that that's fine. That makes sense. Yes. So I'm not sure when to bring this up. So I'll bring it up now. Sure. Tell us about your dark angel. Paul Bugeja  13:01 Yeah, absolutely. So probably in my in my in my late 20s, I started working at a university in back at University of Melbourne. Actually, my old alma mater, and by then, you know, I was actually you know sort of I I was doing some acting, you know, some professional acting, not a lot of it, but enough to sort of be remain interested. So I needed a part time job on the side, you know, to to keep it going as most actors do. And when I started working at the university, I became very interested in fitness as well. I joined a gym and started going to the gym there and made some sort of friends with the local personal trainers. And one day I was doing some training and on one of the big, big sort of bouncy medicine balls that you can sit on for balance and training work, and one of the instructors came up to me and said, "Do you realize that your scapular wings? And I was firstly thinking, "Well, what the hell is my scapular? And then I sort of made sense that it was my shoulders, you know. And and I said, "What do you mean? He said, "Well, when you do upper body workouts, your scapula has quite a lot of movement in it, and it's quite visible. Now, I've always been a very thin person, like I've always sort of been. We've joked about being a tall, skinny dude, you know, and and so I I'd never thought anything about maybe the fact that my my shoulder blades were a bit more prominent. I figured that was because I was a slim person, you know. Of course, so he recommended I see a physiotherapist, and I did. I saw a sports physio in case I'd injured myself or there was some underlying issue. After a couple of sessions with a sports physio. I was referred to a neurologist because the sports physio had some inklings about it may be being a neurological condition potentially of some kind, but had no idea what it might be. And this is when I guess my dark angel first really. Began alerting me to its presence in the background of my life, and I'll explain why I call it my dark angel in a moment. Yeah, the neurologist and I did some tests, and I went in for a biopsy, a muscle biopsy, and I was diagnosed with one of the variants of muscular dystrophy, which is fascioscapiohumeral muscular dystrophy, so it affects the face, the humerus, and the scapula, but in general affects the muscles across the body. It's a degenerative neuromuscular disease. It's not that common; about one in 8000 have it. So you know, enough people have it that it's out there. Some people live with live with it their entire lives and don't know they have it for the reasons that I've just sort of elaborated on, which are it can it can be there but be so minor that you just think it's because you're a slim person or you don't have much you don't go to the gym so you don't work out so your muscles aren't growing or whatever. So yeah, and I was not that thrown by it at the time. It was it was in our family, so it wasn't that much of a surprise to me that maybe I had it. Given that another family member, even though they're quite distant on the family tree for me, also had it, and yeah, I began to just think about you know like what life would be like with this condition, and you know began to have regular sort of checks with the neurologist and you know other sort of allied health professionals around how to manage that. Luckily, it was very my and still is very mild in terms of how severe that it can be. But as I sort of began thinking more about my professional life. I I actually took on a an editing and writing degree and a screenwriting degree as I started to move away from acting because I figured I am a creative person. I love writing and I want to improve my craft. I was interested in journalism as well and I could do that as part of this degree. Paul Bugeja  16:58 So I started studying and that then led to me actually writing a couple of books, four or five books, working as an editor, and then at one point I began thinking, I think I need to write my own book about my journey with this condition, or you know, disability, whatever you want to call it. And I had watched the TV show Dexter, which you may or may not have watched. Yep, and Dexter talks about his dark passenger. You know, as and that's the the sort of I mean, it's a weird correlation. I know in some ways, but that's the serial killer in him. That's his dark passenger. But it really resonated as um this idea of there being this sort of passenger in your life. You know, for whatever reason, whatever it is, and I didn't obviously want to steal that sort of figurative term, but I began thinking about a dark angel instead because, for me, it's a double thing. I mean, I was whatever Catholic. I'm not a practicing Catholic anymore, but you know, the notions of angels around us is something you know we all sort of think about, I guess. But the notion of my scapular wing and those being wings as well was very sort of resonated with me, and so I began feeling that for me my entire life this dark angel had been somewhere in the background, very very far in the background to the point where I wasn't even really aware of that dark angel, and then of course when the diagnosis came along, the dark angel began to make its presence more known, and yeah, and and then over time, I'm very, I live with, you know, like anyone with any sort of disability or chronic medical condition, like you live with it 24/7, and some days it's more of a burden, other days you don't not even aware of it, but you have to learn to live with it, and and so I now feel like I have this sort of dance with the dark angel, I like to call it, who sometimes is more present in my life and sometimes much more in the background. Michael Hingson  18:53 So, what kinds of things does it sort of limit you, or what what do you have to do to to make sure you don't let it get too much of a control over you. Paul Bugeja  19:04 Sure. So for me, the biggest thing I ever did was start going to the gym. You know, I did that just out of pure practicality because there was a gym on campus. It was very easy to join it. It was very close to go to on my lunch break, and so I've now maintained a really rigorous gym schedule, even though my upper body strength is quite weak and limited. I've been able to, I think, the my GP and say allied healthcare professionals like physios and exercise physiologists and occupational therapists have all commented that my gym program is one of the things that may you know this it's a may but may have prevented the condition progressing more severely than it has. So staying fit has been really important. I think by nature, I like to call myself a pragmatic optimist or optimistic pragmatist. By nature, I'm a practical person. I sort of feel as though, unlike I mean, look, everyone manages the news of some sort of health situation differently. You know, some people it can lay low, and I understand why because it can be very confronting, and every condition has a different set of limitations, like you know, it can be quite severe for some people. Like my my cousin had a different form of muscular dystrophy, Duchenne muscular dystrophy, which meant that he was in a wheelchair from the age of five and died at the age of 28. So you know, like like in my case, I feel blessed on some level that my condition is slowly deteriorating, but I do think that I'm lucky that I have enough of a practical and positive attitude about not letting it. I don't call, I never ignore it or or deny it, but I call about. I just resist it. The resistance is there. Like I I push back against it. So mentally, I try to stay positive physically. I try to stay healthy, but you know it does limit me. I have part of the condition. I have something called foot drop, which means that my feet catch a lot as I walk. So I trip a lot. So I I have damaged elbows and knees a lot because of that. So as a consequence, I have to be conscious when I walk. It's not just a. It's not like for most people, walking is an unconscious action. Of course, for me, it's a conscious action to ensure that I trip less. And of course, as I get older, tripping becomes a thing as you get older anyway, because you know your muscle tone changes and you know all kinds of things. So you know, it's about almost in a way you have to become. You do have to be aware of it all the time, and you have to manage it all the time. But that doesn't mean it has to become a burden. I think in many ways it's pushed me the other way, which is it's made me have a lust for life. It's made me want to do more. It's it's probably pushed me to be more nomadic while I can be, just in case there's a point where I can't be, and that sounds a little bit sad, and I mean probably in some ways, but I see that as a positive. Like a really small example I can give you is whenever I visit my mum, like I don't drive, so I use public transport like trains and busses and and the like. And if I catch a train to to go visit my mum, she always insists I'll come and pick you up at the at the train station, rather than you walk to my place, and I insist every time I'm going to walk because while I can walk, I want to walk. You know, so I don't. It's not. I reject. I don't reject her kindness, and I understand it. But it's me saying to the dark angel, "No, I will. Does she? Michael Hingson  22:36 Does she understand Paul Bugeja  22:38 it? I think so on some level, but she still Michael Hingson  22:41 wants to come and get you. Of course, Paul Bugeja  22:43 she does. Of course, there can be the tiniest trickle of rain, and she's like, "Oh, you can't walk in that rain. You know, I've got an umbrella, mum. No, no, no. You know, it's all that stuff. Um, it's it's delightful of her, and I'm glad, and I'll always expect the offer in those situations. But um, yeah, no, she um, you know, unfortunately, and I think a lot of parents will who pass on genetic conditions because this is a genetically passed on condition for me. She feels a sense of guilt about you know having passed on through her line, and so I think she we've talked about it a few times, and it's not a heavy weight on her shoulders, but she has a sense of it. Yeah. Michael Hingson  23:20 Well, I I appreciate that. What was it like when you first got the diagnosis? Though, did it did did it depress you? Did it kind of knock you on your ear in in any way, or did you really decide almost right from the beginning? Okay, this is here, but I can deal with Paul Bugeja  23:37 it. Yeah, it look, you know. So I'm writing a book about this, as I was saying at the moment, and in the in the chapter of the book that I'm writing, I think I wrote something along the lines of life just moved on. You know, like there was no discernible difference. Like I didn't feel physically any difference because there was no physical difference. But for me, I mean, you know, I I work in the media and I've worked in the knowledge industries of any kind for quite some time. Knowledge is power, you know. And and I would rather know about something and then be able to to to have some agency about how to act on it than to bury my head in the sand. Or, but by the same token, I can understand that knowledge can really throw some people. And you know, I have a friend, for example, who I was diagnosed with MS, and that can be an awful condition to be diagnosed with because it can progress very quickly. And for her, the knowledge wasn't great. You know, it's it's been a very big challenge for her. But you know, five years on, now that she has much more knowledge about it because she's had to live with it, she's going the opposite way. So you know, everyone is different, but for me, the knowledge actually catapulted me forward rather than weighed me down. Michael Hingson  24:46 Well, that was a choice that you had to make, or that you got to make, and you made it. And you're you're choosing to move forward with life, which is great. Paul Bugeja  24:55 Yeah, yeah. I feel lucky. As I said, I know. Everyone can can make that choice because of their own set of circumstances, and I do feel lucky about some of my circumstances. And you know, so I don't think everyone can necessarily be that practical or optimistic about things. But I encourage people to you know take a breath and and try and sit with whatever it is that they have to manage at any particular time, because you know people. A lot of people have a lot heavier challenges than I do, and they meet them as well. So it's possible to meet your challenges, I think, even if it limits you still. Michael Hingson  25:36 Well, so it's something that you live with, and so on. And I appreciate that. What what makes you get out of bed every day and and move forward, or is that what what you've been describing? Paul Bugeja  25:48 Look, I think I mean you know I'm I'm an I'm a lark, so I'm at about 430 in the morning, and I'm a Monday person, and I had this conversation with someone just this past Monday at the gym who you know dragged herself into the gym, and she was you know can't be bothered. I hate Mondays so much, you know, blah blah blah. And I get all that, you know. People love their weekends and a break. I love, I love the beginning of a day, and I and I have no problems getting up because I love the thought of there being so much in front of me, you know. And and even as as I grow older, and and you know, life obviously begins to go into a different phase. I still feel there's so much ahead, and and and it sounds a little bit Pollyanna of me, maybe, and a little bit overly optimistic, and a little bit Hollywood. But you know, I feel so hungry for life, and and even though that doesn't mean my life is perfect by any means, and that every day is perfect, and that there are some days that are are challenging. I face that all the time, as do we all in our different ways. But I I just feel so eager for the things that I mean. I have a great professional life, I have a great personal life, I have great friends, I have a good family. You know, my health is fine given the situation. Doesn't mean it's perfect, like I just said. But I don't have much to complain about, really. So, really, getting up is each day is is not a hard thing for me. It's it's it's a joy most days. Michael Hingson  27:15 So, are you married? Paul Bugeja  27:17 No, single. And this is, and I often frame conversations with this because sometimes my friends say to me, "Gosh, you have a great life, and I say, "Yeah, but I chose to be single, to not have children, and to not have pets-the three big things that change the course of your life sometimes in a good way, quite often. But also, I have more choices ahead of me because I am single and childless and petless, you know. Michael Hingson  27:42 Yep. Paul Bugeja  27:43 But you know, I don't. I'm not. I don't. I don't feel. I feel like I could have made other choices around this, of course. And I don't think there is a right or a wrong choice. It's just you have to find the right choice for you, especially when it comes to these big life choices. Michael Hingson  27:59 Well, you know, and when I got married, my wife and I had discussions about children, and she felt that she didn't want to have a child because she was in a wheelchair, and she felt in her specific situation, it would have been a lot harder on the body, and she would have been in bed a whole lot during a pregnancy, and she was afraid she would lose a lot of the the upper body strength and so on that she had. And my belief was that was her choice to make, and so we we both decided that we didn't want children. We would very happily entertain our nieces and nephews and throw them out of the house at the end of the day and send them home, which worked out really well. Paul Bugeja  28:49 I can I can understand that choice, and I I certainly I always thought I would be a father to be to be honest about that. When I was in my late teens and early 20s, it was forefront of my mind. Even though I had all these other adventures planned, and I had a couple of opportunities, actually, probably in my 30s, where I could have chosen to go down that road. And yeah, around the time I was diagnosed, I began thinking what that might mean. Like, and I began to not fear passing on my my FSHD to my potential children, but because often it passes through the female to the male, so it's less likely to pass through me. But if I had a female child, I might have passed it on genetically to her, who then passed it on to my grandchild. And not that that should stop anyone ever wanting children, but to your point and and the way you and your wife discuss the situation, I I made a conscious decision that probably given the life choices I was making around my career as well and other and personal life, it might not be the best choice. So yeah, I can understand where where. If Speaker 1  30:04 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  30:36 So, in in your life, what is one of the well? What would be the greatest thing in your life, personal or professional, that you've experienced so far? Paul Bugeja  30:47 The greatest thing, yeah, it's a it's a great question. That's a Michael Hingson  30:52 toughie because there are probably several. Paul Bugeja  30:54 Yeah, no, there are, there are. I mean, you know, I think, and this will seem a little sort of not so great. I mean, as in not great. Sorry, but I think the the first job in journalism that I got, which was working for the Guardian, the Australian Mars said version of the Guardian, that was pretty amazing for me because I had I had thought, and it wasn't as a journalist. It was as a like a community sort of an audience sort of person, basically. So I wasn't writing and I wasn't generating content, but just to be finally in a media organization after probably 10 or 15 years of always thinking, God, I'd love to work in the media. I'm a real news hound. I love news. I love current affairs, and even though for some it was just getting a job, for me it was taking a step into something that I had thought about for a while, and finally, and you know, working for a really reputable and very well known masthead as well, that had a lot of credibility. So that was pretty exciting, and and that sort of set me on the path of, I think this is where I will stay now if I can. Even though, as you would know, the media is under a lot of pressure to sort of evolve with a lot of external threats to the way it works and and you know staying financially viable. So I've sort of put myself into a very hot pot, and I hope I'm not the frog that jumps out. But I don't think I will be. I think I've managed to forge a bit of a career now that will keep me going. So yeah, it's not a a life like sort of fireworks sort of moment, but it was a it was certainly the day that I got the phone call saying we'd we'd love you to come and join us was was you know very similar to that? I got the phone call from drama school saying you got into drama school. It was a real like everything felt lifted. You know the whole I felt like I was floating that day. Michael Hingson  32:52 Yeah, I'm with you. So what other kinds of jobs then did you progress to over time? Paul Bugeja  32:59 Yeah, so because because I was pursuing acting for for quite some time, probably for about 10 to 15 years, really. You know, I had to do what most actors do, which is work a lot of other jobs. You know, like you just have to. The work is never constant, even for the for the biggest actors in the world. You know, I mean, most of them obviously work constantly, but you know, like to be a working actor is is never let anyone say that being an actor is not a real job. It's a really hard job, you know. And so, I I worked for a long time in casual jobs. I worked in a lot of theaters in in like the sort of the ticketing sort of area of of theaters. So I worked at both the Sydney Opera House and the Victorian Art Center, two big theater. You would know the Sydney Opera House, obviously, but yeah, Victoria Arts Center is another big theater organization in Australia. And while I was doing that, I began doing some freelance editing as a book editor. This was where I really began getting interested in content and copy, and and I had the part-time job at the university while I was studying and sort of doing all these other casual things and acting, and a role came up working in digital sort of content with a large betting agency. So you know, sports betting, which is very big in Australia, and it was managing their blog, their sports blog. So lots of content about what's happening in all the different sports, but you know, sort of a marketing slash copy role. But it was my first foray into digital content, you know, and this was at a time when it was really starting to amp up, and that therefore, you know, made me really think much more about journalism and and wanting to pursue that. So that was sort of the springboard into working in digital marketing, working as a sub editor, and then sort of finally landing this role at the Guardian, which didn't last super long, unfortunately, because I was completing a master's in publishing and communications at the time, and discovered that I. I'd left I'd left Melbourne to move to Sydney to work in the role and had two subjects left and I'd been told by the university that I could complete them in Sydney, and then I was told by an administrator that that was not possible, so I had to leave my job at the Guardian to go back to Melbourne to finish the masters, which was fine to do, and I kept doing other casual kind of jobs and you know contract roles. Well, I did that, but it meant leaving the Guardian, which was a bit disappointing. But it meant I got my masters, which was really critical because again, that was more of a springboard onwards. In fact, I, as part of my masters, I went to China and did a an intensive class in Shanghai, and from that, got offered a role in China, in Shanghai, with a with a Chinese media company that that produced content for for the very big expat community in Shanghai, and I was about to leave to go to Shanghai to take up the role, and you'll you'll probably will have a wry smile, which was February 2020, and fortunately, not long after that, everything kind of went pear-shaped with COVID, and so had to. I mean, it's sort of lucky in a way because Shanghai had a pretty awful time during COVID, where it was a very strict lockdown. So I probably dodged a bit of a COVID bullet in that regard, even though Australia had its own share of lockdowns. But yeah, so that sort of threw a bit of a spanner in the works of what looked like the next part of my media career. But then, of course, you know, I'm a I'm a fatalist. I I run with fate. I I don't push back against the things that sort of maybe look like negatives or or take us off our path. Paul Bugeja  36:38 And I just feel like it's another another fork in the path that takes us on a on a route that will hopefully get us to where we were meant to be, and not taking that role meant, of course, about a year later, I saw the job with Stuff, which is the New Zealand media company that I currently work for, and that was the middle of 2021. It was based in Auckland. We were still in the middle of COVID, but I applied anyway because why not? And yeah, they offered me the role pending the borders opening, effectively. And luckily for me, there was a two-week window where New Zealand and Australia thought things were going to go okay, and the borders opened, and I jumped on the first flight out and got myself to Auckland, and then I started my current job, or actually a different version of my current job with stuff. Michael Hingson  37:27 And what is your your current job? Paul Bugeja  37:30 So I am currently I create digital content for stuff for stuff digital, as we're called now. I mostly create trivia quizzes, so fun daily quizzes that we have a very very dedicated audience for. People love a quiz. I also create a word puzzle called the Hard Word, which is an anagram kind of puzzle. I create that every day. I create a news quiz for them. I also help manage the community, the online community that interacts with with us as another part of my role, which is the role that I originally went to New Zealand for, but as a full time gig, and now it's just sort of part of my my role. So yeah, I am a quizmaster. I love it. I had previously worked in television quiz shows during my time in Australia when I was juggling other stuff, so I had a bit of a background in in quiz question writing and quiz research and verifying, and so I'm now really in such a wonderful job. But I always like to be very clear about this to people because it sounds like the best job in the world. Wow, sitting and making cool quizzes every day-it's a really involved job, and it it takes a lot of kind of like time to research and put together these quizzes because you know you're trying to please a very broad audience of from you know 15 year olds to 75 year olds. So you know, it's it's a it's a very involved job, even if it's a fun job, and so it does, you know, it it does still have a very critical kind of like professional aspect to it, even though it sounds like to some of my friends and and people who learn about it the best job in the world. Michael Hingson  39:17 Well, I'm sure it's a great job, but it is a clearly a challenging job. Have you ever encountered people who talk to you about making your your quizzes or trying to work with staff to make quizzes and some of the things they do more accessible? So, like people who are blind can solve the quizzes or work the quizzes and use screen readers and so on to do the same things that others do. Paul Bugeja  39:45 Excellent point. So yeah, I feel quite often when I'm making my quizzes that clearly they are for an audience that can access them very easily. You know, as opposed to an audience that might need assistance to access. Them and you know we do the the the basic stuff as we you know you must you know um like you know putting an alt tag so that um you know people who maybe are but are able to to use to access the quiz as a as a an audio rather than a video rather than a written um quiz but you know, I think you're right. And look, to be fair, I think you know the way that the media is going. The media is going very video oriented now, anyway. I think, which is a brilliant thing for people who do need have some access, because you know, with the video, of course, a video quiz, there'll be audio as well as visual, as well as the written word potentially. So there's a way that covers off all the bases, you know, or you know, many of the bases anyway. At the moment, you know, we are starting to bring in some minor changes, but I think going forward, it's pretty critical because you know the world is very aware that people do have some limitations in the way that they can access, especially digital content, and even though there are a lot of great forms of software that you can use to to make like your your life less limited by whatever you know sort of limitation you may have, it still isn't as good as it can be. And and I think certainly as someone with a disability, I'm an advocate for disability. You know, I'm on the board of a major disability organization in Australia. I'm on an engagement advisory committee for the same organization. I'm very pro and very much an advocate for ensuring that anyone with any form of disability can access and have as as great a life as possible, as untrammeled. I'm not untrammeled. That's the wrong word. As as as you know, as a life that has no barricades to them, basically. Michael Hingson  41:49 Well, the the reality is that crossword puzzles, for example, can be made accessible. Yep. And of course, I wouldn't expect the organization to suddenly produce Braille puzzles, but there are there are still ways Speaker 2  42:11 to do it Michael Hingson  42:11 to create audio, for example, kinds of things. And you mentioned the the value of video that only works if people truly put the appropriate descriptions in in audio form, the video, which a lot of people don't do, which is unfortunate, but it is possible to make to make them more accessible than they are. Paul Bugeja  42:36 Yeah, but it is a but it is a it is Michael Hingson  42:38 a challenge, and I hope that over time more more kinds of things will be accessible. I get the New York Times online, and a lot of what they do isn't nearly as accessible as it should be, and I can see how it it could be made more Accessible, but they haven't just been really willing to do it. And and ironically, a lot of the media has been one of the places where access has has truly not been addressed nearly like it it should be. And and the the result of that is that there are problems, and of course they say, well, things change so fast. They they do, except that it's all about coding and it's all about understanding programming and coding. And if you do it right, and if you know it, you can keep up either way. But you know, people don't necessarily do that. Paul Bugeja  43:38 Yeah, look, I agree, and I think you know. Look, without I'm not going to become a defender of the media, even though I'm part of it. But I think they definitely can do better as a as an entire sort of profession. I think that the tricky thing for the media at the moment is, I mean, you look at what happened this week. You know, 300 reporters, you know, sacked at the Washington Post. You know the media is under a lot of pressure to be financial, and that's not a great defense against not being accessible, mind you. But their mind is on survival at the moment, and that's an unfortunate thing because it means that they can't do the stuff that would actually benefit everyone, you know, their entire audience. So, not to defend it, but that's that's the only sort of rationale I can think of as to why they're not doing more. But that shouldn't stop them trying. That shouldn't stop them trying. Michael Hingson  44:32 Well, and I think that's really the issue: is that people do need to try, and people need to make an effort. And if they would, it would help a lot more than than it does today. Paul Bugeja  44:43 Agreed. Michael Hingson  44:44 So, if you could change one thing about your life, what would it be? Paul Bugeja  44:47 Not very much. Like I really love my life. You know, I I I even and this will sound quite odd. I even probably wouldn't change having a disability. You know, like it it who I am. It's it's in my. You know, it's it's so it's in my DNA. Like you can't get any deeper into someone than their DNA. You know, like of course I'd rather not have this, but it's it it it doesn't as we've discussed. It doesn't stop me. It doesn't limit me. It just modifies my life on the edges. It's Michael Hingson  45:16 just it's just part of you. Paul Bugeja  45:18 That's exactly right. And so I have to embrace that. You know, as you know, does anyone with any sort of situation that is slightly left of you know what people might call you know normal or ordinary, you know? And I, I always say I try to live my life less ordinary, you know, and and I think it's that attitude which really stands me in good stead because when you choose like I like as we discussed earlier, I'm in a position where I can make different choices to people who do have a partner, or do have kids, or do have a massive mortgage, or do have whatever you know job that keeps them in one place. But you know, you know the old saying about you make your own luck, right? And circumstance does change things definitely, and some circumstances are outside of our control. For example, getting having a genetic disability is outside of my control, but you know you do make your own luck as well. And I sort of feel that I am so about agency, and I'm so about you know like taking responsibility for your actions that I feel that everything about my life is because of the choices that I've made, and I want to own that. So you know why would I want to change any of that? In terms of, if I want to change it, then I will change it. So I think I have a great life. I'm healthy. I'm happy. I've got a you know like I was saying earlier, I have great friends, a good family, a great job. I'm able to you know like talk to people like this about things and and and like it's yeah life's pretty life's pretty good for me. Um, you know, there are things about the world I'd like to change, like as would we all, you know, like, um, but those things we can only sort of change on the edges, and I do that as much as I can as well. So, well, there are things that we don't Michael Hingson  46:54 have control over, and and if we worry about them, that's just going to cause us grief. It's not going to bother others. Paul Bugeja  47:01 No, no worries. Worry. I mean, I worry about something. Of course, I do. We all do. But you know, eventually, I manage to bat most of my worries away because I realize, as you said, it's usually something that is out of my control. It's funny when I talk to my actor friends, and speaking for myself, of course, you know, actors have to rehearse. You know, we rehearse favorite. You know, you rehearse for roles and whatever, and that sometimes for me has meant that I tend to rehearse things prior to you know the situation. So it means that my mind goes at 100 miles an hour about a lot of things, and that can lead to anxiety and worry. You know because you overthink, you worry about a situation that hasn't even occurred yet. You're thinking, not over. Well, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. So, you know, I think the the biggest lesson I've probably taken as well from my diagnosis and and the the thing I committed to this year a little bit as a part of my New Year's resolution or whatever you want to call it is to just be as present as I can. You know, like to live in this moment right now. That doesn't mean I don't have an eye to the future, and and I don't make plans, and I don't am not excited about the future. But I'm I'm trying to be as present as I can because if you're present, then all then all this worry disappears in a way because you just can only deal with with with what's right in front of you. Michael Hingson  48:18 Right. Do you have any regrets? Paul Bugeja  48:22 Um, not really. I mean, you know, like there've been a few moments in my life. So, for example, I can I can name a few things. Like when I was in my early 30s, I entered the the diversity visa program, which is the green card lottery in America. Yeah, and I I got it. I got a green card, you know, and so I was all ready to move to the states back in the late 90. Oh no, when was it? Yeah, the late 90s. Yeah, yeah, um, early noughties, and I got into the writing editing course in Australia. So I was really enjoying that. I was doing some acting and some paid acting work, and so I had to. I had a moment where I was like, "Well, do I really want to take up this green card off and become a resident of America? I have lived there before when I studied. I travel there regularly to see my friends, you know. And so I had this crunch time. It was a sliding doors moment. I I did visit a few times. I spent a bit of time in the states, and then I eventually dropped the green card. Now, occasionally, I look back on that and think, "Was that a silly thing to do with what would have opened up to me had I moved to the states? You know, like would my acting career have taken off? Would I have ended up working for the New York Times? Look, whatever it is. So there's a sense of regret about it, but it's such a faint shade of regret that it doesn't it doesn't hold me back. You know, I don't want to be held back by anything in my life. And I think, for me, regrets can hold you back too much. You know, oh yeah, Michael Hingson  49:49 yeah. Oh, absolutely. Well, and and it seems to me that that it's one of those things that could have gone either way, as you said, a sliding door moment. I think that's a really interesting way to put it. But but the fact of the matter is, you made a choice. You're happy with the choice, and you may or may not have been as happy with the choice if you had moved to America. But you wouldn't have experienced a lot of the things that you have experienced. So it's okay. Paul Bugeja  50:14 That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So even you know occasional relationships that went awry, or you know what else? Gosh, what if I stay pursue my career as an actor? There are always going to be what ifs with life, you know, and it's the what ifs that tend to cause us regret. I think, and Michael Hingson  50:29 well, and and cause us so much fear. Paul Bugeja  50:32 That's exactly right. And regret and fear should be the same word, effectively, because that's all that's playing. And if you can find a way to manage that as best you can, and and look. I always say I try to to look down at my feet on the ground to see where I am, and to look forward to see where I'm going, rather than look back where I've come from. And look, we can learn a lot from where we've come from. And in fact, the book that I'm writing is almost like a detective novel, where I track back through my life to see if I can see moments where I might have known that I had FSHD much earlier, so in that regard, I do look backwards. You know, I'm happy to to to have a critical eye on the past and to learn from it. You know, but I don't ever want it to drag me back to it. I'm always looking to be pulled forward. Michael Hingson  51:18 Well, that's the operative part, right? There's nothing wrong with looking back and and learning from what you've experienced, and and more people should should do more of that. It seems to me, but Paul Bugeja  51:29 oh yeah, let's. That's a much longer conversation, isn't it? It Michael Hingson  51:32 is. Who's been the most most influential person in your life, and why? Paul Bugeja  51:38 Yep. Michael Hingson  51:40 Besides Kate Blanchett, but that's another yeah, Paul Bugeja  51:42 of course, very influential, Kate. If you're listening, if she is, I hope she'll Michael Hingson  51:47 reach out. I'd love to have her on the podcast. But anyway, you Paul Bugeja  51:50 never know, my friend. You never know. Look, I mean, it's it's a hard question because, but it's a good question. I mean, there have been so many influences in my life, you know, and and I don't want to step on toes by not naming people in a way, but you know, for one one really influential person who has given me, you know, I have a friend who's a film journalist actually, and has written, you know, a lot mostly about the production side of the industry rather than film reviews, and I feel she only came into my life about maybe 10 or 12 years ago. So she's a relatively new friend, but a very dear friend. And I think I did an internship at a magazine that she worked for, and she was the the editor of at the time, and I think she had a really great influence on my life because she made me realize that I definitely wanted to pursue a career in the media. That I was done with journalism. That working in the media was exciting and interesting. You know, she made sure she pushed me in a lot of ways that I might not have been pushed otherwise, and she's remained a really dear and constant president in my life ever since. So yeah, I really feel like her coming into my life at that particular moment really was like critical in a lot of ways. But you know, she was one of many that have that have definitely given me great advice, or have been very supportive, or have just been there for me. So, yeah, big call out to her. She's she was being wonderful. Michael Hingson  53:29 Do you think that if you had never been diagnosed with or ever had FSHD, that your your job and your careers would have gone differently, or do you think that this was just a natural progression and FSHD is there, but it didn't really dictate what you did. Paul Bugeja  53:46 I think because of my approach to this situation, which is it's there, but it's not going to stop me. I think that look clearly, it's a physical condition, so it does limit me a little bit physically. So, like, I was never going to be like for for instance even with acting you know it did limit me a little bit with acting like there were certain things that like I can't do a headstand you know and I know that's a really a small thing but like in in drama classes there was I remember one class particularly always asked to do a headstand and I couldn't do it and this was pre diagnosis and I had I just thought it was because I was clumsy or uncoordinated or not muscular enough, so like certainly the diagnosis probably gets in the way of some some some kinds of careers that I might have pursued. But generally, you know, I'm a I'm a computer based person. I'm a knowledge and and and and content based person, and I was already going that way pre-diagnosis, so you know I don't think it really intervened in where I would have gone, whether it helped me or not, or whether you know it was part of the reason why I'm where I am. Look, I think it's it's part of the reason of everything that I do. You know, even if it's not all. That the defining reason, but it's it's a consideration definitely. Michael Hingson  55:04 Well, it is, and and it's helped build your resilience, and there's nothing wrong with that. Paul Bugeja  55:10 Yep, and that's right. And I'm in a career that requires resilience, and so it definitely, in that regard, yes, it's it's helped me build that further resilience. Michael Hingson  55:18 So there you go. Has AI helped you in terms of any of the things that you do on your job? Do you use it to to help in finding out information about quizzes or or that you put in quizzes or any of that? Has AI been a useful tool for you? Paul Bugeja  55:35 So again, this we could talk about this for 12 hours a time. Topics right, especially working in the media. I am. I love the fact that I'm an early adopter. Right, I love technology. I I embrace it. I'm you know I'm that guy who gets the new iPhone not every year but every other year. You know, I I'm really I embrace the new. You know, I was doing digital content well the beginning like not at the beginning of it all but you know I was I was I jump in quickly with AI I have reservations I certainly you know I tend to still use standard search but of course now with Google search AI is built into that Google search so I am using it in that regard as a media organization, we have a very strict policy about AI, as one must. You know, we have to be very careful because while it's definitely the next big revolution for everyone, whoever you are, from you know like a dog walker to a you know president, like it's going to affect everyone's lives, you know. I feel as though, so you know, for example, as a media organization, we're encouraged. We are looking at improving the way we work with AI, but there always needs to be a human oversight. Yeah, Michael Hingson  56:57 absolutely. Paul Bugeja  56:58 Yep, yep. And you would appreciate that, of course. So I don't use it in the way I think. I I think over time I will have to use it because I won't have any choice. But you know, we in the media, I think we're looking at. I don't think this is giving anything away, but we're looking at agentic AI more than generative AI because agentic AI is really useful. If I can ask an AI bot to put together the the not the quiz itself, but the the actual article the quiz will appear in that goes on the site. Well, that's just a practical like role you've given a system if you had one anyway, right? So I definitely think the media and me in in my role will will more and more embrace agentic AI as we're able to build it into our systems to help us with mundane practical tasks that you'd give the intern, that you'd give the the first year journal student out or whatever. Right? In terms of generative AI, I I've used it a bit just to see what it will throw back at me, and for example, I do a lot of quizzes as a quizmaster because I love to just do quizzes. I can tell a quiz that's been made with AI. It's very clear. I did a quiz the other day, and I kid you not. The first question was, "If I'm a Bolivian, what country might I come from? Now, I mean, for an editor or the actual person who put together that quiz, not to realize that a that's a pretty awful quiz question, but but it's such an obviously AI generated quiz question, you know. So yeah, I think we I think, and I'm also very aware that the amount of money that's being poured into AI at the moment is looking like a big bubble that will burst at some point, you know, because they can't keep plowing all this money in and expect big returns because it's not returning anything at the moment to them. Really, that doesn't mean it's not going to continue. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't embrace it. That doesn't mean that it's not going to maybe find a cure for cancer. Like I feel like there is a lot of positive that can come from it, so long as the humans stay in control. Michael Hingson  59:03 Well, I think that's the the real issue in the operative part of it. I have used AI in in writing articles, and the way I've used AI is I've I've asked it to give me give me your thoughts on or write an article about, and I'll do that like about six or seven times, and I will go through all of the things that that are created, and it gives me ideas. But I would never let it write the article, and I I would never do that because I want it to be me. And even if it could get to the point where it truly emulates me, it's not me, and I wouldn't want to do that. I so I'm I'm with what you're saying. Paul Bugeja  59:44 Yeah, yeah, and I think that's the trick. My, I think probably like with all you know, sort of new ages of technology, whether it was just the internet, and then it was sort of probably social media was the next big you know sort of critical juncture, and now it's AI. You know, it it means that the a younger. Generation that comes along that only knows this. So my my probably biggest concern would be, and I don't have children, but you know for my friends' children and the children that are going to grow up with AI, that they come to rely on it so heavily that they lose the ability to critically think, that they that they believe everything that AI says, and it will get better and it will get more accurate, but it's still throwing back. So I'll give you one quick example. When I was playing around with it back in 2022, I think, or whatever year the Queen died, Queen Elizabeth II died. I asked it, "Who's the current monarch of England? And I kept bringing Queen Elizabeth II back, and I kept arguing with it, and it kept saying no, and I started feeding it New York Times articles, Guardian articles, you know the Telegraph articles, and I kept saying these aren't reliable sources. Now this was you know back three or four years ago now, but that really concerned me, and I fear that that's the only fear for me is that people will lose their curiosity and their own ability to critically think and and and rely on it so heavily that they forget how to do really simple tasks that we should still be able to do. Michael Hingson  1:01:04 If you could change one thing about the world, whether it's big or small or whatever, what would Paul Bugeja  1:01:10 it be? I actually, so this will reveal me as a like a bit of a almost a communist. But I wish that people's obsession with money would change. I would love to change that. Like I love that people want to be comfortable and they want good lives and that we want our creature comforts and that we want to travel and have a great TV and all that somewhere to live. But I do feel li

It is never too late to chase a dream, even one that has waited decades for its turn. My guest, Evan Katz, built a career in journalism, public finance, and local government before taking an unexpected path into professional baseball. After first playing organized baseball at age 45, Evan became a professional player at 61 and later coached professional baseball at 69. We talk about how fear can become motivation, why setbacks can be powerful learning opportunities, and how skills gained across a lifetime can prepare us for challenges we never expected to face. Evan also shares what he learned from calling himself the “least qualified coach in professional baseball,” and how listening, mentoring, and supporting others became some of his greatest strengths. His story is a wonderful reminder that personal growth, career change, and lifelong learning do not come with an expiration date. Highlights: 02:47 – How family work ethic shaped Evan's drive. 11:26 – How fear can become motivation. 13:08 – Why setbacks can become learning opportunities. 35:06 – What local government taught Evan about growth. 42:29 – Why he started playing baseball at 45. 53:37 – How he became a professional baseball coach at 69 About the Guest: Evan grew up in Brookline, Massachusetts two miles from Fenway Park in the 1960s and quickly learned the emotional highs and lows of being a Red Sox fan.  When the Red Sox won the World Series in 2004, after an 86-year championship drought, he rang church bells to celebrate. After a long award-winning career in municipal and public school finance in Massachusetts, and raising a family of four with his wife Liz, Evan began his late-life baseball career in earnest at age 65.  He was an assistant high school coach for three years, and documented the team's Massachusetts state championship in the story “No Earbuds in the Outfield.” Evan Katz's pro baseball career began at age 61 when he pitched for the White Sands Pupfish of the independent Pecos League in 2017. When euphoria subsided and his infinity ERA began to sting, Evan returned to the Pecos League at age 67. With the Austin Weirdos he became one of the oldest pitchers ever to start a minor league game and lowered his ERA to 29.25 After an aborted stint as pitching coach with the Roswell Invaders in 2024, Evan returned to the Pecos League in 2025 as bullpen coach of the North Platte 80s. As the 80's scout he recruited players for the second-year Nebraska team.  As bullpen coach he supported the North Platte pitching staff which anchored the team's 27-21 record and helped the team reach the second round of the playoffs. And this despite just three years as a high school coach, and no college coaching experience. There were more than 2000 coaches among nearly 300 major, minor and independent pro baseball teams and Evan was the least qualified. To share his second career in baseball and other inspiring baseball stories, Evan manages his baseball website “Baseball by the Sea Media.” It includes exclusive feature stories plus biographies and game stories published by the Society for American Baseball Research. It also links to the 2024 award-winning two-season podcast he co-hosted with Bruce McClure, “Baseball's Last Frontier: Stories from the Pecos League.” Ways to connect with Evan**:** https://sites.google.com/view/baseballbythesea/home https://www.linkedin.com/in/evan-katz-351554b/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi, everyone, and welcome to another Unstoppable Mindset podcast episode today. We get to chat with Evan Katz, and Evan's got an interesting life, especially since, if you will, he started the second part of his life, or maybe it's not the second, maybe it's later, of being a professional baseball coach at the age of 61. Well, we're going to hear about that. Evan lives in Massachusetts, in Swampscott, grew up in Brookline, which was very close to where the Red Sox play. I'm sure he's got lots of stories that we get to talk about with that. But anyway, Evan, I want to welcome you to Unstoppable Mindset. We're really glad you're here. Evan Katz  01:42 Thanks, Michael. I really appreciate the invitation. I I think that I'm excited to be part of a show with with with the theme that that you emphasize because I think that that when you reached out to me to ask if I was interested in in sharing some of my life experiences, I realize that there's a there's an unstoppable part of my mindset that has allowed me to achieve some things I didn't think were going to be possible. Michael Hingson  02:10 There you go. Well, you know, a lot of times we plan, and what we plan doesn't always necessarily go exactly the way we thought. But that's okay. It's it's a question what we do with it and what we learn from it. I suppose why don't we start by you telling us a little bit maybe about the early Evan growing up and and all that. And I know that you had mentioned that you think you actually got your kind of unstoppable mindset attitude from your parents and all that. So if you want to talk about that as as we go, you're welcome to. But anyway, why don't you start by telling us a little bit about the early Evan, if you will. Evan Katz  02:42 Sure. Well, you know, as you mentioned, I grew up outside of Boston in the town of Brookline, which is about two miles from Fenway Park. I'm a baby boomer. My my parents worked really hard, and they they worked hard to get their first house. They worked hard to fix it up. My mother was at home. My father worked in his parents' hardware store and was always fixing up the house. We ended up upgrading houses because of all the work that he did. And my mother, although she wasn't working, you know, she was involved in local politics, trying to improve the schools. And one of the stories I told when she passed away a number of years ago that she was so effective about mobilizing people to make changes in the school system. One of the school principals said to somebody else, "Get that Pawnee cats off the phone, Michael Hingson  03:34 because of course Evan Katz  03:35 at the time telephone was the only way to connect with people. But you know she had her unstoppable mindset in terms of making changes in public education in Brookline, my dad in terms of living the dream that he had for his family, and I really think that that in my own way I picked up that same hard worth it work ethic, and it's popped up along the way throughout my my life and my career. I Michael Hingson  04:00 I know what you mean. I know my parents were somewhat the same way. My dad worked at. Well, we moved to California when I was five, and before we moved, we were in Chicago. And he and my uncle owned a TV repair shop, and my dad left that to move to California. Wanted to do that anyway, but he began working at a government installation, was called Plant 42, and then later transferred to Edwards Air Force Base. My mom stayed home for a while. She actually helped sell real estate, helped sell some of the houses on the street where we moved because they were they were brand new, and the real estate people trusted her, so she she did some of that. Don't know what she earned or how all that worked, but but she did okay. But my dad worked, and I I feel very blessed. They they clearly taught me a lot, and I value very much their work ethic. I know what you're talking about. Evan Katz  05:01 Well, family is a great resource, whether it's your immediate family or extended family. And also, again, at the time that that I was growing up, most of our extended family lived right in the area, so there was a lot of connecting with cousins and uncles and grandparents. And I think that had its own way of shaping because we had a pretty hardworking, determined family, and I think that got passed on again, not just in my parents, but from my extended family as well. We Michael Hingson  05:28 had aunts and uncles and cousins. A lot of them were in Chicago. Then aunt and uncle and their two boys and our cousins moved out to California, but it was long after we moved. And then our next closest relative was actually up in the San Francisco area. Aunt Bella and Uncle Oscar owned a shoe store, and but and there were some other people who we called aunts. I'm not sure that they actually were, but aunts and uncles. But they they lived in the L.A. area. But most of our relatives were not very close by. Well, that's that's fine, but value the relationships nonetheless. So what was what was school like for you? Well, elementary school and high school and so on. Evan Katz  06:22 Well, I went to the local elementary school, and as I think, as I as I suggested, it was one of the schools that was being neglected by the town. My mother and her friends advocated for equal resources. It was also during the time where Christmas carols were being sung in school, and it was not something that my parents thought was appropriate. I was Jewish. There were other Jewish kids in school, not very many, and just didn't seem like this was the thing that should be happening, given where our country was at the time. And so I did well in elementary school. I mean, the interesting thing was I skipped kindergarten, so I was always the youngest and the slowest on the playground, and it actually contributed to my not participating in sports through my early years and into into high school, which we will we'll hear more about that later. But I got a good education. I loved numbers. I learned in high school after I had horrible year my sophomore year writing. I was determined to learn. I took a couple of English classes from mr. Carey at Newton South High School. Learned to become a good writer, and ultimately that led to my writing on college newspapers and becoming a newspaper reporter. My first job out of college. So, you know, the kind of thing when you go through school, you try to figure out, you know, what are the things that that that sing to you. And first, it was numbers for me, and I ended up going into a career in public finance, and then the writing, which I ended up becoming a newspaper reporter, put that on hold. And about 10 years ago, or eight years ago, I started a baseball social media website, and I ended up writing baseball stories. So, so here I am in my my my formative years in school, taming numbers, becoming a CFO in the public sector, and becoming a good writer-they got me through life. Michael Hingson  08:33 How did you end up being able to skip kindergarten? Evan Katz  08:37 That was back in the day. They didn't have minimum age requirements. If you pass the test, you you got to go right to first grade. Michael Hingson  08:44 Ah, well, I know I went to kindergarten in Chicago, and you started in Chicago at age four. Then we moved to California, and the problem is in California you couldn't start kindergarten till age five, but I had had a year of kindergarten already, but they wouldn't let me just go to first grade because I was only five, so I ended up with two years of kindergarten. And I'm not sure that second year was all that exciting for me, because kids were drawing and doing all sorts of stuff that I wouldn't do being blind. But we coped, and we got through it. I also did love numbers and so on, and my dad taught me how to do math in my head, so I was really doing well with math. And my my mother helped me with spelling tests and reading other material to me, and so on. So we got through it, and again, they took that on without any remorse at all, which, as I think back on it, was just part of their gutsiness and their unstoppability. Because the doctors told them that no blind child could ever amount to anything, and they were going to prove the doctors wrong. And I would like to think that they did, but we. We went through it, and I didn't actually. I learned Braille when I was in kindergarten in Chicago, but then didn't have access to Braille till the fourth grade out here in California. Yep. Yeah. Well, but my my parents read and kept me up with everything, but still it was a problem. But then I got Braille again, and so it all worked out, but I, but I, but I know what you're saying. It still gets back to the work ethic, and our parents were gonna do everything they could to make sure we all succeeded, didn't they? Evan Katz  10:32 Well, and I think also, Michael, you've touched on it, and I did as well. You know, there are things, there are areas we go into, whether it's school or work or relationships, we're blessed with certain talents and traits, but we also have areas that are not our strengths, and we're always having to work to figure out how to how to compensate for our areas of call it weakness or limitations, and also how to allow our strengths to to overcome those and and then to help generate success. Michael Hingson  11:05 Yeah, and and we do need to do that. And and the reality is that we're all generally better at some things than we are at other things, but we can make it work if we if we try. I wrote and published with a colleague, Carrie Wagg Kent, two years ago a book called *Live Like a Guide Dog* which is all about learning to control fear and its life lessons that that tell us that fear doesn't need to overwhelm us or, as I put it, blind us. That that we can use fear as a very powerful tool to help us, and I mention that because there are so many things that we fear in the world, and most of them we don't have any control over. I mean, I know that there are things that that I don't get to do right now that other people do because they can see different things. But at the same time, I have gifts that most of those people never either learn to use or choose to use or can use, and so we all have to work together to make the world successful. And I think that's the big issue. Evan Katz  12:11 Well, I think your point about fear is really important because we we all have fears, we all have worries, and fear can be paralyzing, and but it can also be motivating, and I think it's important that if you get into a situation that that you're concerned about or worried about, you should acknowledge that you're in something. Maybe you're over your head, and we'll talk about my coaching a professional team at age 69 without ever having coached college baseball, going right from high school coaching to professional coaching, that was the hardest job of my life, and that fear motivated me to figure out how am I going to come up with those compensating skills? How am I going to be able to succeed? Because I want this to succeed not just for me, but for the players around me. So, so fear. It's important to to recognize it, and so that you know that it's there, but also be able to take advantage of what fear can motivate you to do. Michael Hingson  13:13 Well, and fear doesn't need to paralyze you unless you let it. And that's the the big issue: is that we don't learn generally how to control fear and to use fear in a positive way. We worry about so many things over which we'll never have control because we just don't, and we let all of that worry us, and that that certainly adds so much to the fear levels that we face, and if we would only learn to just focus on what we can control, that doesn't mean you don't be aware of other things. But don't worry about the things over which you don't have control. It will help your life a whole lot. Evan Katz  13:53 And another aspect to that is, and I and I learned this, and as I mentioned, I worked in the public sector for for for almost 40 years, and I came up with the phrase at one point, and I I don't remember the circumstances. And somebody said, "I don't know if this is going to work. I don't know if we have the money. I don't know we have the people. This may not be a good solution, or the operation may not work. And I said, "Well, I think we have to see if it fails because if it fails, then we're going to learn something. Obviously, we didn't want anyone to lose a job or to get hurt. It wasn't failing in that regard, but but the you have to have enough courage so that if something isn't going to work, you can use that as as a learning opportunity as well, so you can't have fear of failure either. Because then we can all look back. You're old enough. I'm old enough to look back on our lives and see those learning moments. Many of them came from times that didn't work out so well, Michael Hingson  14:55 which doesn't mean that we failed. And I think that's the big issue. I think we have to deal with. Failure is is something that we have to really get over thinking about because failure isn't really it. What what it is is that things didn't work out the way we planned, but that doesn't mean that we failed, which means we just can't go on. We're we're stuck. It's it's a learning experience, and that is part of what dealing with fear is all about. Is rather than worrying about it. All right, so this didn't work. Don't fret. Don't worry. Don't panic. What did you learn from it? How do we get beyond that? And that's the thing that we generally tend not to do very much: is to do a lot of self-analysis in our own lives. Take time at night to step back and look at what worked during the day, what didn't work, and the what didn't works weren't failures, but they were learning opportunities if we take advantage of our own skills to develop our mind muscle to do that. Evan Katz  15:57 Absolutely, I Michael Hingson  15:58 think that's that's so important. Well, so for you, you you where did you go to college? Evan Katz  16:08 I graduated from Newton South High School. We went from Brookline to Newton in the 70s. I went to a small college in Western New York, Alfred University, for two years, and ultimately graduated from Colby College in Maine in 1977. As I mentioned, I wrote for both the newspapers at Alford and Colby, and that's where I got my my my journalistic experience back then. Writing for college newspapers was was a big deal back then, Michael Hingson  16:39 yeah, Evan Katz  16:39 and that worked out really well. I was going to go into teaching. That was my original plan. I did some internships in college. I even, when I was at Colby, I took a semester and helped out at a small fourth grade class in neighboring Oakland, Maine, helping out kids doing lessons in the in the corridor and in the back of the room to help them with their math, but when I left college, I had done enough writing, primarily sports, that I decided to to follow journalism. But the college years were really an eye opener for me. As I mentioned, I was a year young. You know, I was the drinking age was 18, and I was still only 17 and a half when I went to college, but somehow my IDs got me through into the pub. But it was a really eye-opening experience going to college in New York. I'd been in Massachusetts my whole life and was in a small town in Western New York, and it was just so eye-opening to see a part of the country and people that were very unlike where I lived in terms of Alfred. Most of the kids were from New York, and then going to Maine, they were more from New England. But it was just a real eye-opening experience. I think we all go through that in our late teens and early 20s, really beginning to discover, you know, who we are, what situations are we comfortable in? We test ourselves. We do crazy things, and it all turned out okay because I was able to get a job right out of college. Michael Hingson  18:11 So teaching was your plan, but it didn't go that way. Evan Katz  18:16 No, it didn't. And interestingly enough, I was looking back through my father's memorabilia when he died, and I think I knew this, but I was reminded that he wanted to teach originally, and he actually was a mentor to many people during his working career. And he took great pride and went to the Peace Corps actually for a number of years in his 60s, and so you know the whole teaching mentoring thing ran in our family, so I guess it's kind of ironic that I ended up coaching baseball at age 65 as a as a teacher and a mentor. But but the college experience, you know, I still think about it. I just sold my vinyl records. It was it was a little traumatic, but I did sell my vinyl records recently because I can listen to everything over the internet now, and but that was a water watershed moment selling my vinyl that I listened to in college for all those years. Michael Hingson  19:14 I still have mine from working at the campus radio station. I got a lot of records back here, and I I am somewhat of the opinion of the I don't know whether I would call them snobs, but I still think the best quality is still vinyl. Evan Katz  19:30 Well, as you know, Michael, one of the best attributes of vinyl records is when they were originally the songs were compiled and sequenced. It was they were designed to listen through the whole side of an album. Michael Hingson  19:44 Yeah, Evan Katz  19:44 and I mean obviously Pink Floyd was classic, and I'm sure that there were others that come to mind that I can't think of. And I was a big fan of the Doobie Brothers, and to this day I'll still turn off my radio in the car and put on a couple of Doobie Brothers albums and listen to them straight. Same with Chicago. It just the music was meant to be arranged, you know, for half an hour or 35 minutes, not just three and a half minutes. And I think a little bit of that has been has been lost with today's music. Michael Hingson  20:13 Yeah. Well, I think there's there's truth to that. And I even go back further. I've been a fan for many many years of big bands, primarily Swing, Benny Goodman, and and so on, but also doop and early rock. But I and I like some of the other rock. But I've never been a great heavy metal fan. But that's okay. Some people like it, and then that's fine too. But I really enjoy my records as well, which is a lot of fun. Yeah, I Evan Katz  20:42 did listen to Van Halen cassettes driving. Somehow, a Van Halen arrangement wasn't quite the same as Chicago. No, Michael Hingson  20:50 no, it is a little bit different. There's no doubt about that. So, what was your job that you ended up getting out of college? Evan Katz  20:57 I ended up worked as a stringer, which I don't even know if there are any anymore, but I think I got paid 10 cents an inch for covering soccer for the Newton graphic. I covered the Newton South soccer team, and also I I don't know how much an hour I got. I covered the Westin Wildcats. That's a small town west of Boston for the Westin Town Crier. That's how I got started in journalism, and I ultimately was hired as a part-time reporter by the Walpole Times, which is small town southwest of Boston. And I eventually became a full-time reporter there, covering town government, writing feature stories, learned how to use a 35 millimeter camera. We we had our own darkroom there, and I thought it was so much fun going out to meetings, interviewing people, compiling stories. It was just it wasn't like work. It was it was it was exciting, and it paid the bills, and I was living on my own for the first time. Michael Hingson  22:06 That didn't get you to graduate to things like going into television on WEEI and doing sports for them, huh? Evan Katz  22:13 No, the the the written word at the time, and even today still is is where I am. Although, as I joke with my friends, just put a microphone in front of me, and I'll start talking. Michael Hingson  22:26 So that's okay. Well, so how long did you write? And then what happened Evan Katz  22:32 was, so as I mentioned, my mother was very involved in local government, and I grew up in Brookline. And the interesting thing was, I was covering the planning board and the school committee in Walpole, and I'm I'm going to the meetings and I'm listening to them talking about the issues that they're dealing with, and I'm thinking to myself, so this is what 1979. I'm 23 years old, and I'm thinking, I mean, I can do better than this. I mean, listening to these these people talk about how they're going to solve problems, and I said, I think I can really help. So, the local legislator from Walpole, his name was Frank Woodward, had an opening in his office, and I started working as a legislative aide for him, working in the state house. It was very exciting. My mother was so proud. When some one morning in March, I don't know if it was 1979 or 1980, and I walked up the steps of the State House. Big blue sky in Boston. It was a big golden dome. I'll never forget. I walked up the front steps, looked up at the golden dome and the big blue sky in March of whatever year that was, so excited. My mother was so proud. My dad was too, obviously. And then I got involved in government, and that's where it all started. Working in the state house to really begin to understand the importance of issues. You know, it wasn't just local government, but how the state government intersected with the federal government, and how much how how important government is to making people's lives safe and protected. Michael Hingson  24:07 Yeah, and I think that is that is something that although there is certainly a lot going on today that is not necessarily the the model of what government ought to be, probably, but still, government and what the House of Representatives and the Senate do at the federal level, and what happens at the at the state house and in the state government is really important. And I wish more people would seriously get involved with it, and and do it from an ethical standpoint. But you know, we, I guess, we go through through different kinds of eras of how things work. Evan Katz  24:54 Well, it's interesting in the tumult that we're going through here. I recently had a chance. Last month to go to England with my wife. I hadn't been there for a while, and and I was really struck by how the history dates back centuries and centuries and centuries prior. You know, to 1066, I guess is one of the lines in the sand or the dirt in England. But when they started the more modern era, and what I was really struck by when you think about a country like England and all the difficulties, all the changes, all the times that they were under threat from external forces, internal forces, all the chaos, and somehow they've survived. And I think this is one of the real attributes of Great Britain. And I just began to think about what we're going through here, and I think I have to be hopeful in the same way. Michael Hingson  25:56 Yeah, I agree that Evan Katz  25:57 that that we've been here for 250 years. I know it's short compared to England. Supposedly, one author says that republics die after 250 years. I don't know if I buy that necessarily, but but the point is that that that I think somehow, some way, we're going to survive this because other countries have been through much more over much longer periods of time, and here they are. And 2026 is stable, viable countries. Michael Hingson  26:25 Yeah, and they're still there, and they're going to be there. And I agree with you. I think that we're we're going to continue, and maybe republics die after 250 years, but it doesn't mean they have to. And I think that's that's part of it. So what did you what did you do in terms of you you went to work in the state house or what did you do? Evan Katz  26:48 And I was a legislative aide, so we would get information on legislation, take a lot of constituent phone calls because at the time the only time only way you got a hold of your legislator was either make a phone call. Of course, I think from Walpole to Boston, it might have been a toll call at that time. So maybe we got more letters from Walpole. I don't know, but constituent constituent concerns, working with state agencies to resolve things, and and it just got me acquainted with with with how government works, and it just gave me an appreciation for what it takes to make government work for for the the residents of Walpole and a couple other nearby towns, and also you get to see the the leaders of the state at that time the the Senate President and the the Speaker of the House, and you get to understand a little bit more how they show leadership and what skills and attributes work well, and what ones in your mind don't work well. But the whole bottom line is, you know, how is it working for the constituents? And to me, that became more and more important. Is what's the bottom line here? It's not about power. It's not about success at the legislator. The bottom line is the impact on people. Michael Hingson  28:13 Well, I remember that when I lived in Winthrop, every year I would go with people from the National Federation of the Blind, we went to Washington every year. Five, 600 of us descended on Washington and visited all of our legislators. And I remember actually once having the opportunity to set up an appointment and meet with Tip O'Neill. What an amazing guy he was! Yeah. But then also there was a new congressman who had just joined, Ed Markey. Evan Katz  28:45 Oh sure. Michael Hingson  28:46 Now look where he is. He's but but it was it was so much fun seeing Congress in action and actually being a part of it, talking about different kinds of issues, and of course it got to meet Ted Kennedy and also Paul Songas along the way as well. And I and I also was involved in things in in Massachusetts because one of the problems we had in the early '80s in Massachusetts and around the country was that blind people couldn't buy life insurance because the life insurance companies said we're a higher risk, we'll have a higher mortality rate, and finally, to keep the story short, we discovered that unlike what insurance companies say they do, which is they make their determinations always based on actuarial statistics, evidentiary data, and they create mathematical models based on evidence. They had absolutely not one single solitary thing to show that blind people or other people with disabilities were a higher risk than anyone else. So I worked back in the late 70s, early 80s with I don't you may. I've known him, Al Evan Katz  30:02 Sagasi. I recognize the name. Michael Hingson  30:03 Yeah, and so he he helped us shepherd a bill through that eventually eliminated discrimination in dealing with life insurance in Massachusetts, and and actually was something that passed in every state that all all the states dealt with that because the insurance companies were just playing games, which was so unfortunate. So when I was growing up, my parents couldn't insure me. When I was in college, I couldn't buy life insurance, and and eventually it got addressed. But it was, and it still is fascinating to think back and be a part of making a difference and really working to help constituents and help the legislature. Evan Katz  30:48 Well, there's a great example of numbers not being in action. You know, they're hiding behind perceived numbers, and then you do do a little bit of digging, and you find out that it's not quite as fact-based as they made it sound, Michael Hingson  31:02 yeah, and in fact there was no fact, and but still we worked through it, but the process was, I think, and still is for me one of the most fascinating things to to be able to go and be a part of dealing with things and and hopefully getting legislators to deal with issues and I'm not sure that there's as much of that that's happening today with everything going on but it'll come back. Evan Katz  31:34 Not not in Washington anyway. I think you've got to look to the states more than Washington. Washington's an anomaly right now. Michael Hingson  31:42 Yeah, Washington is really a big problem, and and but it'll it'll it'll switch at some point. I hope. I think it's going to have to, but but we'll see how it goes. If Speaker 1  31:55 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes, thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  32:27 So you you went to work and you were legislative aide. How long did you do that? Evan Katz  32:32 Actually, not not. I think it was a little over a year because I ended up working on a referendum campaign. There's a thing in Massachusetts to limit property taxes, that's called Prop Two and a Half, that passed in 1980. I ended up working for Representative Woodward and a couple of other reps. There was an alternative on the tried to get on the ballot as an alternative to Two and a Half that wouldn't be quite as dramatic. Although I think, looking back as someone in the public sector, I think it's a good thing that Prop two and a half passed, but I got involved in working on a referendum campaign as an alternative to Prop two and a half. It didn't pass, and then at that point, I decided needed to get some professional training, and I went to get my graduate degree in public administration from the Kennedy School at Harvard, so I would have more credentials and I could really get into local government, and that really opened the door. Once I got my master's degree, I ended up working for the state. I think I mentioned my mother and family were from were from Brookline. We were acquainted with Governor Dukakis, and my mother worked actually very close with Govern was very close with Governor Dukakis, and he really encouraged me to go to graduate school, and I ended up going to the Kennedy School. And from there, I went and worked for his administration. The Massachusetts Department of Revenue started a division to support local government finance. It was really very innovative at the time in the early '80s. You know, cities and towns were separate. The state was just a regulatory reagency, and Governor Dukakis wanted to create an agency that could be a resource to local government to help them make better decisions. We created a municipal data bank to try to gather information to get to gather statistical information and ultimately help guide cities and towns to budget better, to plan their capital budgets better. And I was involved in the formation of that bureau in the Mass Department of Revenue. It was called the Division of Local Services, and I ended up working there in the early '80s, to really get a feel for how state government worked, state aid, and all that sort of thing, and then I learned enough there and decided to go out and see what it was like myself to work in a city or town, and that that's was around 1980. So I got my training at is in graduate school, learned more in state government, and then in the mid '80s went out to work in town halls and and city halls, and that that talk about fear, that that was frightening. Michael Hingson  35:18 It was a new experience. Evan Katz  35:20 Absolutely, you know, you you you you're in the state house, and there's there's 240 state reps and 40 senators, I think, all kinds of legislative aides. You're working in a state agency, and it's a whole bunch of 20 something and 30 something colleagues and bosses and this and that. There's always someone you can ask, always someone that can support you. You go to a town hall, and there's there's three clerks and a bunch of select board members. In Massachusetts, there are boards of selectmen in the small towns, or the select board now. Back then, it was select men, but you're on your own out there, and it's very, very different. You know, having a bunch of colleagues to support you in the big city when you're out in the small town of Groton, 40 miles from Boston, with 7000 people, and you're the resource in town hall. It's a lot different. Michael Hingson  36:18 I was just going to say that you you became the resource that people look to. Evan Katz  36:24 Yeah, and and so you take your professional training and you begin to develop some of those personal skills. And how do you relate to people? How do you gather information? How do you recover from from your mistakes? How do you make sure you have enough successes so that you got a good success to mistake ratio? But it's it it is very scary. I mean, I was what how old in 1986? So I was 30 years old, and it never. And I wanted to work in a small town, and I did, but it was a real, real eye-opening experience. But by the same token, you know, one of our biggest fears-you're the only person. One of the greatest attributes to the situation was you're immersed in everything. You learn everything. You learn about the police department, the fire department, which was a call department at that time. You know, if there was a fire, all the firemen, there might have been a couple of women as well, went to some went to the station to get the truck, and some drove in their cars to the scene of the fire, and and and you get a small town with one police officer on duty, you know, from from 11 to seven, you got a water department with two employees. You really get a feel for what's important and what isn't, and how do you make the system go, and what do you do in an emergency, and how do you plan for the future? And so it was it was it was frightening at one level because you're on your own and you're learning a brand new thing, but at the same time you're immersing yourself so deeply, and you're learning so much that that that that you're growing, you know, professionally and personally at a very very fast rate. Michael Hingson  38:16 And although you may or may not realize it at the time, those fears that that you started with slowly would be dissolving away because you were learning how to deal with things, and you were discovering that you had the ability to deal with things, and so you became less afraid in a positive way. Evan Katz  38:37 Right. Well, you know, you all know that the cycles in in businesses and cities and towns, and it's all in an annual cycle, the budget cycle, and you know you get through the first year and you start doing it again, and you're doing it again, and you really then you begin to expand your knowledge base. You're willing to to to experiment a little bit more, and and you're growing again at a very fast rate because you're able to do more and more that you weren't able to do when you first got there. Michael Hingson  39:10 Did you ever run for any office? Evan Katz  39:13 Actually, I did. When I left Groton, I finance was my area of interest, as as I mentioned earlier. I was hired by the city of Medford, which is just north of Boston, up Route 93, probably I don't maybe 810 miles north. And when I was working there, I was the city's finance director. You talk about culture shock, so I go from the small town of Groton with seven people to a to a 50,000 the city of 50,000 with a with a palatial city hall right off Route 93 and but I was chosen for because of my background in finance. And when I was working there, I decided that the town of Groton might benefit from my experience as an elected official. So I was working in Medford as finance director, and I ran for assessor in Groton to get started. Elected assessors to value properties and administered the taxes, and then ultimately I ran for select board a couple years after that. Michael Hingson  40:27 Were you elected? Evan Katz  40:29 I did. Yeah, I won. Okay. And here's another thing that I learned. You know, I haven't always seen elected boards, whether it was the select board or city councils or legislators, you see elected officials in action at meetings and talking about problems and making phone calls, but you forget there's a lot of other work that goes on behind the scenes when you're at home at night and when you run into somebody on the street. And so I was I was very prepared for the for the technical aspects of it, the problem solving, but I forgot about the time that it takes when people call you or have a have a have a problem with a nearby dog, or someone put up a fence, or the traffic on my street is going too fast. You have to call people. You got to follow up. You got to again. Back in the old days, it's all by telephone. So the amount of time that it took to resolve problems and have meetings, I forgot about the the the extra time that it takes when you're an elected official to do that behind the scenes stuff. But but I enjoy doing that as well. Michael Hingson  41:41 Yeah, I'll bet. And you know, it it is just it it you figure out that that's part of what you have to do. And again, I think the big issue is in figuring all that out is learning to recognize that's part of what you have to do, and accepting that that's definitely part of the job, and not trying to blow it off, not trying to get angry at people, which all too often happens today, I think more than it than it needs to. But it is part of the job. It's all part of the job, and no matter what, that hasn't really changed. Evan Katz  42:19 And I think it's I think it's in any job, and I think people have perceptions about certain types of jobs, whether it's you're you're you're a plumber, a truck driver, a lawyer. You know, people understand the responsibilities at the surface level and the visible level, but they're they're not as aware of what goes on behind the scenes, what it takes to to get things going, and and I think that's probably not and maybe underappreciated in some situations about what it takes to to to do things behind the scenes that are not as exciting, where there's more drudgery, and and and the amount of time that it takes to get you into the seat of the truck, to get you to have a meeting with clients, if you're some kind of professional, if you're a doctor, there's there's there's a lot more to any job, and I think that that that it's important to recognize it for ourselves. You know, it's not just the let's call it the glamorous part of the job. Michael Hingson  43:29 Yeah, Evan Katz  43:30 there's the behind the scenes part of the job, and the same goes for all jobs. And I think it's important to remember that. Michael Hingson  43:36 I agree. Well, you did all this work, and you kept doing it for quite a while. So, what got you into baseball, other than being a fan? But you know, Evan Katz  43:46 well, loyal Red Sox fan, been to Fenway hundreds of times, as I mentioned earlier. Was started school a year early, so I never played sports, and my kids in my 40s had finished little league, and they were all done with their sports careers at that point. And I decided I wanted to play baseball at age 45. Michael Hingson  44:14 There you go. I had Evan Katz  44:15 never played. I had never played little league. I never played high school. Never played college. And at age 45, a friend of mine who I grew up with in Brookline, he encouraged me to go to a baseball camp in Florida in 2002, and at that point, my my interest in baseball and my fandom in baseball expanded to becoming a a player and having to learn about the game as a player, not just as someone watching the game. Michael Hingson  44:47 And what did your wife think of that? Evan Katz  44:49 Well, my my wife will mention that my my wife Liz, our first date was on march 30, 2002, and that was the date. Of my first baseball practice in Massachusetts, so she has been there from the beginning of my baseball career. And if it wasn't for her one acceptance of it and her support of it, I never would have been able to achieve and enjoy all that all that I have, but she she is is is my biggest fan and supporter. Michael Hingson  45:29 That's great. She's a Red Sox fan, I would presume. Evan Katz  45:33 Yeah, Red Sox fan. Yep, and you know we watched them clinch it in 2004. We've been to Fenway together, and you know she, you know, like I played adult baseball, and and you know the when guys join, their spouses or girlfriends come the first for a bunch of games in the beginning, but then they just lose interest. Understandably, it's you know it's old man baseball. It's not like it is on TV. She she comes from time to time, but but she she's got her own life to live now. So that's okay. Michael Hingson  46:05 Well, so so tell me how baseball progressed for you. So you you started working at playing. Evan Katz  46:15 Yeah. So I went to this baseball camp in Florida, which I actually just came back from. It's called the Ponstellion Baseball Camp, and it's from a league in Washington, and they started going down for a week of what they call spring training. Well, for Washington, baseball starts a little earlier, Washington D.C. So we go down the end of January, and you know, getting on the field isn't too far away as long as there's no snow on the ground in the DC metro area. But I started going to that camp in 2002, and there was a group of professional coaches at this camp who were major league and minor league affiliated, and they have been coming to this camp since the beginning. This is now 2026. They've been going to the camp as long as as the longtime players, and so what happened was, you know, I was playing adult baseball, and there was a year where it rained a lot, and we had games postponed, and I'm driving around Fort Myers, and I think I was 60 years old at the time, so this would be 2016. And I said to myself, you know, what would be the chances that I could find a minor league team that would let me play, so I could live my dream of being a professional baseball player? And I grew up around in Brookline. I collected baseball cards. I played imaginary baseball games in my yard. Played wiffle ball with my friends. Watched the Red Sox on TV. You know, it's been in my blood since I was a little kid. And of course, many little kids want to be professional basketball players, hockey players, football players. Well, for me, it was baseball. So here I am, 60 years old, and I asked a couple of people at the camp. One of them was Stan Clyburn, played for the Angels in the 80s, and he's managed in the minor leagues for 1000s of games. He's still managing to this day. And Steve Little, who was a coach at the time with the Twins, I asked them, "Do you think I could find a minor league team that would allow me to play for them, so I could live my dream, play professional baseball? And they said, "Sure. Oh yeah, you you should give it a shot. And they gave me a couple names. Ultimately, it took me a year and a half, and I found the Pecos League, which is a low level of independent baseball. I got a hold of the commissioner. His name is Andrew Dunn, and I called him up in March. It turned out this would be March of 2017. I went out to my car at a lunch break from school. I had his phone number, and he answers the phone, "Hello, baseball. And I explain the situation, and he said, "You want to get in a game? We'll get you in a game. And that was that was in 2017. Michael Hingson  49:15 Wow! Evan Katz  49:16 And way it the way it turned out, he invited me out to play for the White Sands Pupfish the last weekend of the season, it had to be with teams that it wouldn't affect the playoffs. And I went out to White Sands, New Mexico, White Sands National Park is there. Alamogordo and the the White Sands Pupfish. I I pitched to two batters, walked one and hit one. I had one plate appearance and was called out on strikes. Didn't lift the bat off my shoulder. Too much fear, as I look back on it. But I became a professional baseball player at age 61. Michael Hingson  49:57 Well, so you got to live your dream. Evan Katz  50:00 Yep, Michael Hingson  50:00 and so after you pitched, what did you do? Evan Katz  50:04 Well, it was all very exciting, and I I actually was interviewed by Bill Littlefield on the NPR radio show Only a Game, talking about playing baseball at age 61, and my friends thought it was really neat and cool, and I had some pictures made, and I gave a lot of graph pictures to Stan Clyburn and Steve Little to thank them for inspiration, and it was all fun. But you know, in baseball, if you're a pitcher and you give up a run without getting anybody anybody out, you have an ERA, which is an earned run average. How many runs you give up in nine innings? Michael Hingson  50:43 Right. Evan Katz  50:43 I had an ERA of infinity. I'm in baseball reference with all these big known baseball players. I'm there with my my my stat line with an ERA of INF infinity, and I'm 65 years old, and I'm saying, man, I don't want to have an ERA of infinity. I don't want to retire with an ERA of infinity, so I got a hold of of Andrew Dunn again, and I said, Andrew, can I come out and pitch again? I want to get my ERA below infinity. I want to get somebody out. So it turns out in 2023, he assigned me to pitch for the Austin weirdos keep Austin weird, right? Keep Portland weird. Keep Burlington weird. You know, keep but whatever weird city you know they have their slogans of keeping the city weird. So Austin weirdos. And the interesting thing was that the weirdos that year in 2023, they had a home field in Austin, but it got burned out. They didn't they didn't have enough water, so they lost their home field. They turned into an all road team, and no player likes to drive through the Pecos League through the desert Southwest from Texas to Arizona, Michael Hingson  52:00 right Evan Katz  52:01 up to Kansas and Colorado for weeks on end. I get to the end of the season, the last weekend of the season in Alpine, Texas, to play the Alpine Cowboys, of course, in Texas, and the Austin Weirdos only have 11 players, and I can pitch. It's a Friday night, and there's a doubleheader on Saturday, and the manager decides, well, we got a guy here who hasn't pitched recently. He should start the game on Friday night. I get a text from the manager in the middle of the day. Evan, you're starting tonight, Derek Dominguez. Talk about no fear. Yeah, starting a 67-year-old pitcher against a lineup of 20-year, 25-year-olds, and I I started against the Alpine Cowboys, and talk about managing your fear. They have it's an old baseball stadium was built in the 1940s. It's got a grandstand behind home plate. You know, a couple things happen there. First of all, I get to the park early because the team was driving. They had to drive. This is the amazing thing. 1111, players. They had to drive 700 miles from the night before from Blackwell, Oklahoma, to Alpine. Michael Hingson  53:20 Wow. Evan Katz  53:22 The catcher comes in the dugout. Wonderful young man. You know, pitchers always worry who is going to catch them. Who's my catcher? And I'm in the dugout waiting, and a young man comes up to me, and he knows who I am, and he says, "I'm Marcus Bracy, and I'm catching you tonight. And the way he said that to me made me feel like he was going to take care of me, and we warmed up. I didn't have any fear. And one thing I did though, when I went out to the mound in the bottom of the first inning, and every inning after that, I made it to the fifth. By the way, I never looked up into the stands. I never wanted to see the crowd. I wanted to keep my eyes focused on this catcher, and that is what helped me get through. And I gave up two runs an inning into the fifth inning. And the interesting thing was that that that was about the team's average. The earned run average for the Austin Weirdos that year was 18 because they had lost so many players, they didn't have many pitchers, and I ended up for that game with an ERA of about 18. So I pitched the same as all the 25-year-old pitchers that pitched for Austin that year. Michael Hingson  54:39 There you go. That certainly is. That certainly is pretty cool. So, what year was that? Evan Katz  54:48 That was 2023. Michael Hingson  54:49 Okay. So, what's happened since? Evan Katz  54:52 Well, I was so taken by the Pecos League and some of the players there, and I had been coaching high school for three years. You know, I had. I had coached at Manchester Essex High School, just north of Boston. I had coached the pitchers and the catchers there. We won the state championship in 2022, and yeah, I saw I'd done a little bit of coaching. And I knew the Pecos League didn't have a lot of money. It didn't pay the players anything hardly. Players make less than $1,000 for most of the teams, and many of the coaches are volunteer coaches. And I asked one of the players; his name was Alex Westman, really nice, nice fellow. I met him for breakfast actually in the fall after the season. I was out visiting my my son in Arkansas. Met him in Missouri for breakfast, and I said, think, think the Pecos League could use a coach like me, and Alex is always an upbeat guy. And unfortunately, Alex was passed away a couple years ago in a tragic motorcycle accident. But I'll always be thankful for Alex for him saying to me, "Oh yeah, you should coach. So I got a hold of the commissioner. I I did coach for a few games for Roswell in 2024, but my mother-in-law took ill, and I had to come home. So last season I ended up teaming up with Todd Everleth, the manager of the North Platte '80s, who I had connected with during 2024 and introduced him to the league. He managed in North Platte, and I asked Todd if he could use a coach, and Todd invited me out to North Platte, Nebraska. And last summer, I was the bullpen coach. One of the hardest things I've ever done, if not the hardest, going from high school coaching to professional coaching at age 69, but somehow it was successful. I helped the pitchers. We ended up going to the the second round of the playoffs. We had a couple of guys called up to higher level leagues, and and it was a success. But but it was again one of the hardest things I've ever done, but at the same time, one of the most rewarding. Michael Hingson  57:04 That's pretty cool. You you did you did so much of that. So you also you've been coaching. So you've been coaching a fair amount over the last few years. You said I think at one point, you were the worst coach in 2025. Evan Katz  57:23 Oh right, not not the worst, close, the least qualified. Oh, the Michael Hingson  57:28 least qualified. Okay, right. Yeah, this is a good story. Evan Katz  57:31 So, so, so Todd and I, you know, Todd Everleth, we're driving his truck around the Midwest. I don't know, it's probably the second second or third road trip, but I'm I'm sitting there, and I'm really beginning to understand the credentials, my new Todd's credentials, and the credentials of the other coaches in in in the Pecos League, which, as I mentioned, is the lowest level of independent baseball. It's not connected to Major League Baseball, and I'm thinking to myself, there's got to be 1000s and 1000s of coaches in professional baseball, major leagues, minor leagues, other independent leagues. Here I am. I'm a coach in the Pecos League. I I have three years of high school coaching experience. I have got to be the least qualified coach in professional baseball. So I said, Todd, I think I'm the least qualified coach in professional baseball, and he he got a real kick out of that. Michael Hingson  58:30 Well, so the real question is, what's going to happen this year? What are you doing now? Evan Katz  58:35 Well, this year, you know, I I am definitely retiring from coaching, as I mentioned, you know, at my age, 69, coaching in professional baseball, you know, your your days start early. They go till late at night. You're traveling a lot in the Pecos League. We drove our own cars, so we drove over 7000 miles last summer. Michael Hingson  58:57 Wow! Evan Katz  58:57 And that that was on top of driving out to Nebraska and coming home, so over 10,000 miles over the course of the summer, way way too demanding. So, but what I'm what I'm doing, Michael, is I think that that I really have some some lessons to share and some experiences to share. And as I as I joked with Todd and some of the other players, the the pitchers out in the bullpen. We were sitting out in the bullpen one night, and the pitchers knew that I wasn't didn't have a lot of experience. And once we all got used to each other, we had a really good time out there. And I'd said to them, I said, I think I'm going to write a book, and the book is going to be the least qualified coach in professional baseball, a survival guide, basically telling the story of how somebody with the least credentials of all the professional coaches was able to figure out how to cope with the challenges and ultimately support the pitching staff. And contribute to the teams going 27 wins and 21 losses, making it the second round of the playoffs, and having players called up to higher level leagues. I think there's some lessons there to share to inspire other people, and so that that's my plan. I'm hoping to do a little bit of motivational speaking. I'm planning to write a book and tell the story of the least qualified coach in professional baseball. Michael Hingson  1:00:28 But you brought a lot of life experience to coaching. Evan Katz  1:00:31 Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, this is one of the things I had to figure out. I knew my technical background was limited, so I had to figure out how can I support these players, how can I be available, and I figured out where to where to sit in the bullpen, so I could listen to their conversations and chime in when needed, and still see what's going on in the game, where to where to be in the outfield during batting practice to have casual conversations, and then I also-I don't think I mentioned this earlier-I had a podcast that I did, and so the podcast, which had a weekly episode and a guest from the Pecos League, I was always looking for stories from the team to interject into the podcast, and that was a great conversation starter. I also took a lot of pictures of the players, candid shots that they would never have been able to take on their own, and then also provide some baseball lessons along the way. You know, there was one pitcher who was very dissatisfied with his outing one night. He said, "I didn't, I don't, I didn't strike out as many guys as I wanted, or I gave up too many runs. And I said, "You left the game when we were ahead here in the Pecos League, where the team score a lot of runs. It's not the absolute results; it's the relative results. Yeah, you did your job. You left the game with the '80s in the lead, and you did great. So I figured out ways to support these guys because they had their own challenges, being away from college, being away from home. Try to figure out how I could support them to bring out their best. Michael Hingson  1:02:12 What a great story, and what a a great insightful thing you said to that pitcher. Well, if people want to reach out to you, how can they do that? Evan Katz  1:02:21 Well, I have a website called Baseball by the Sea Media, where I have some of my writing that I talked about. I've done some baseball biographies and some baseball game stories and some exclusive stories. Baseball by the Sea Media. I'm also on LinkedIn. Those are probably the two easiest ways to find me. Michael Hingson  1:02:44 How do they find you on LinkedIn? Evan Katz  1:02:46 Evan Katz, just I don't think least qualified as a search parameter on LinkedIn. No, it's probably blocked. So, Michael Hingson  1:02:55 so Evan Katz is spelled Evan Katz  1:02:57 E V A N K A T Z. Michael Hingson  1:03:00 So there you go. Well, I want to tell you that when that book comes out, we have to to do another one of these because I want to really have a chance to feature the book and all that. So keep us posted. Evan Katz  1:03:13 Absolutely, I'm I'm I'm looking forward to to working on it, Michael. And I appreciate you having me on today. Michael Hingson  1:03:18 Well, I want to thank you, and I want to thank all of you for watching and listening, and I'd love to hear from you. Feel free to email me at speaker at michaelhinkson m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com. Love it if you'd give us a five star rating, but more important than a rating, please give us a great review. Review the podcast and say nice things about Evan. That's a that's a beautiful thing to do. If anyone knows anyone who ought to be a guest on our podcast, Evan, including you, feel free to introduce us. We're always looking for people to come on and tell their stories. But for now, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank you for spending an hour with us and and making it a very enjoyable and an unstoppable day. Evan Katz  1:04:03 Absolutely, Michael, it's my pleasure. Michael Hingson  1:04:08 Thank you for being here with me on Unstoppable Mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to michaelhingson.com and download my free ebook, Blinded by Fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward. Together, thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset.

Success does not always mean moving faster, achieving more, or keeping up with someone else's timeline. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik has built a career across marketing, business development, media, travel, and entrepreneurship, yet some of her biggest lessons have come from learning when to slow down. Stephanie and I explore burnout, wellness, fear, AI, social media, intuition, and why our lives rarely follow a straight path. We talk about doing your best without needing to be the best, trusting your instincts, letting go of what you can't control, and staying open when life changes the plan. I believe you'll find useful ideas here about personal growth, resilience, and creating a life that feels like your own. Highlights: 0:10:15 - How high achievement can lead to burnout, stress, and health issues. 0:16:09 - Learning to control fear instead of letting fear control you. 0:24:30 - How asking, trying, and taking initiative can open new career paths. 0:35:35 - Doing your best matters more than being the best. 0:45:26 - Knowing when to stop pushing and let life unfold. 0:58:37 - Trying more helps you discover what you're capable of. About the Guest: Dr. Stephanie Gutnik is President of tuxedo concepts, providing management consulting and public speaking to organizations across the world. Her focus areas are integrated marketing communications, business transformation and corporate wellness. She is also the author of the children's book, “My Very Best”. Stephanie has spoken globally from Taiwan to Brazil, with notable events including Advertising Week New York and London, Ad Age's Business of Brands in Chicago, Brand Innovators in New York, Possible in Miami and AdAI in Toronto. Her articles and interviews can be found in publications such as Adweek, AdExchanger, Digiday and the Association of National Advertisers. She has also been a juror for the likes of The Drum and Future is Female. As EVP Omnichannel at Wilkins Media, Stephanie has previously held roles as Global Chief Strategy Officer at Billups, Global Head of DOOH at Yahoo, Vice President of Digital Strategy and Programmatic Sales at OUTFRONT Media, and Vice President, Business Development at Broadsign. She sits on the Board of Directors of the Canadian Association of New York and Jewish Community Foundation of Montreal. Stephanie graduated with a BA from McGill University and has a MBA and doctorate from Edinburgh Business School. Ways to connect with Dr. Stephanie**:** People can follow me on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniegutnik/) Tuxedo concepts (tuxedoconcepts.com). My book is available through Amazon and directly through Book Baby (https://store.bookbaby.com/book/my-very-best) About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi there! Welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. We're glad you're with us wherever you happen to be. Hope you're having a good day. Our person that we get to chat with today is Dr. Stephanie Gutnik, Doctor No Less. We'll have to find out about that, but she is is here from Toronto, where right now it's pretty cold because we're recording this on the 30th of January, so it's cold where she is. It's not quite as cold where I live in Victorville, California, but we're doing okay and we'll cope. So Dr. Gutnik is the president of Tuxedo Concepts, and I'm not going to go into any detail about it because I want to leave all that for her. So we'll just do it this way. Stephanie, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset. We're glad you're here. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  01:49 I am so glad to be here. Thank you. Michael Hingson  01:51 Why don't you tell us a little about maybe the early Stephanie growing up and all that? Let's start with that. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  01:57 All right. The early Stephanie grew up in Winnipeg, Manitoba, which is even colder than Toronto is this time. So I'm definitely used to snow and negative temperatures, and I just had a wonderful, wonderful upbringing to be in the prairies. You get perspective on a lot in life, and was very close with family, friends, and then very quickly I wanted to discover more of the world, so I left to study at McGill for undergrad, and it's in Montreal, in Canada. And my life took shape around that. I traveled the world. I continued my academic pursuits and certainly climbed my way up in the business world as well. Michael Hingson  02:47 How did travel to various places sort of shape your outlook on things? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  02:54 I've always had the travel bug. Growing up, we would go away to you know different parts of the states and some warmer destinations with a family road trip as well. And then as I got older, it was it was Europe, it was Australia, and I was always very happy to travel alone or with groups of people that I met for the first time. And I was just really curious to see what life was like in other places, and that translated very nicely into my my working reality, where I was largely in marketing and business development throughout my career, and I was with companies at first that were rapidly expanding internationally. So I was able to open an office in China and set a business plan for you know hiring in the Middle East and go to South America and speak and and grow the business. So I'm really grateful because when I meet people now, typically wherever they're from, I can you know pick my favorite food that I ate while I was there, and we have something to smile about and talk about. Michael Hingson  04:04 That's pretty cool. Well, I I haven't traveled as as much as you have, but I've traveled enough, and I enjoy travel. I enjoy going to different places and meeting people and experiencing different customs. And even around the United States, there's so many diverse and different kinds of environments. It's it's pretty fascinating. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  04:25 Very much. Do you have a favorite place in the U.S. Michael Hingson  04:29 Oh, it's still going to be California because the weather's better. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  04:34 I hear you. I Michael Hingson  04:35 my favorite place is probably in the San Diego area because I think it's still the best weather anywhere. It's a temperate climate. It's a good climate. It doesn't really get cold to freezing very often, although it can in the winter. But it warms right up during the day. So I really like San Diego. We enjoyed my wife and I living in San the San. San Francisco area. We lived in a town called Novato, which is in the North Bay of the San Francisco area. We lived there for 12 years, and I enjoyed that too. But San Diego still has the best weather. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  05:12 The air in La Jolla is is delicious. Michael Hingson  05:17 Oh yeah, Speaker 1  05:18 yeah, Michael Hingson  05:19 and and of course that's the whole point. La Jolla is such a nice place, and it's northern San Diego County, and you've got the beach, and you've got the university there, and so many other things that make it a nice place. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  05:32 Very true. Michael Hingson  05:33 Now I live in Victorville, which is kind of up on the high desert of California, so it's not exactly the same. And I never thought I would live here. But we moved here because it was the only property in Southern California when we wanted to move down to be closer to family. It was the only property that we or place where we found property where we could build a home, and we wanted to build a home because my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life, so we wanted to build an accessible home, and that's what we did. So we've been here now. I've been here for well. We moved down in July of 2014. So my gosh, it's going to be 12 years in five months, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  06:13 isn't it? It's funny that you say that because I always find in life there just you find yourself in circumstances that you did not plan, and then they become rather permanent, and you can't really envision your life without that place or that circumstance. Michael Hingson  06:30 I hear you. I agree. And well, and you know, this house is very comfortable. I like it. My wife unfortunately passed away in November of 2022, so it's me, a dog, and a cat, but I enjoy it, and I'm I'm perfectly happy here. I said I never thought I would live in Victorville, but that's okay. That is where I am, and the house is wonderful, so I I'm I'm fine with it. If I had one thing to say about Victorville, it is the drivers up here all think they own the road, and they're as far as I'm concerned. I ought to be able to get a driver's license because I could drive as well as a lot of the people up here. I don't see the problem myself. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  07:12 But up until recently, I hadn't driven a car in like at least 12 years, just from living, you know, in more cosmopolitan cities, and really enjoying a good walk. Michael Hingson  07:24 Yeah, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  07:24 just yeah. Michael Hingson  07:25 But you drive now? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  07:27 No, I've just been behind the wheel to break that. Break that. Michael Hingson  07:31 Just to get into that habit. Yeah. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  07:33 Totally. Yeah. Michael Hingson  07:35 Well, and Toronto, you you can certainly get around Toronto without a lot Of grief, Speaker 2  07:41 totally, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  07:41 yeah. I am. I very much value the ability to live somewhere where you can just run out and pick something up to eat, or you know, see people around you. I think it's important. Certainly, it feeds me. Michael Hingson  07:58 Yeah. So, and I and really, for the most part, enjoyed living in New Jersey and working in New York City. New York City is a great place to be able to get around. It's pretty easy to to travel anywhere in the city, subways and all that. Now, it wasn't as easy for my wife because she was in a wheelchair her whole life, and a lot of subway stations and so on aren't accessible. But one day, it was actually before we moved back there. We were both we were in the city, and my wife wanted to go see the UN, and it turns out that she could go downstairs in the hotel where where we were staying, and I was doing other work. But she was able to get a bus that took her right to where the UN was. She could wheel across the street and take a tour of the United Nations and so on, and then take the bus back home because everything was accessible. So she was really excited about having had the opportunity to do that. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  09:09 I love that. Michael Hingson  09:11 Yeah, I was at. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  09:12 It really is, and it's important. I was at Yahoo for a couple years, running a division there globally, and when I started, it was part of Verizon Media. Yes, Verizon Media, part of Verizon, and the work that groups were doing on accessible features and technology really intrigued me. And you kind of think there should be an element of that at every company producing whatever it is that they're doing because it makes such a difference. Michael Hingson  09:41 Well, when you think about it in terms of, let's say, in the U.S. for example, the Center for Disease Control says that up to 25% of all people have a disability. Now, I disagree with that, and I'll come back to that in a moment. But they say 25% have a disability, and so often. Often companies don't deal with that. They're leaving out 25% of their prospective customers because they don't want to make things accessible. And there is so much evidence to show that companies that do create accessibility get the brand loyalty and they get the business, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  10:21 yeah. Michael Hingson  10:22 And the reason I object to 25% is my belief is everybody has a disability. For most of you, it's light dependence. You all don't do well when the lights go out, unless you happen to have a smartphone or a flashlight or whatever. So I describe disability as a characteristic that everyone has. It's just that it manifests itself differently for different people, but that's that's that's my view on it. And one of these days, we'll get more of society to recognize that there is a lot more that they need to do to to to deal with preventing this whole business of leaving so many people out. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  11:00 I mean, I couldn't agree more with you. By the way, and there's also, you know, call it disability or whatever you want. Everybody has something in their life that you know it either doesn't make it as easy or makes it their own. And so the whole point of you know when you talk about a customer base, really just interacting as humans, it's how do we how do we understand that everybody is dealing with you know one thing and what can we do and you know throughout my throughout my working career I was somebody who like despite being born in Winnipeg I should have been born in Manhattan because my work ethic is one where I'll work day and night and be very happy about it. I walk quickly. I get things done quickly, and so it was. You know, if you if you give me a challenge, I'll do anything to you know fulfill it. And I think what has what I've seen with myself and amongst others in my network, is that that type of personality begets a whole slew of other issues: burnout, health issues, stress. And so, one thing that I developed and have started to take on the road. I know you're a public speaker. I am as well. I call it the wellness workshop, and it's not you know get up at five in the morning and do your yoga and then your 30 minute meditation and then your your 5k run or it really is much more more tangible and certain tips and tricks that we can do when we're on an airplane or you know in a hotel or just in a period where we're feeling overwhelmed, and I really believe that we have to be cognizant of what's going on with each other in the workplace and just in general, and be able to offer some of the these these guidelines to just help everyone, you know, be okay, if you will. Michael Hingson  13:00 One of the things that I have adopted as a pretty hard line way of living is when I'm flying to travel and speak. I don't want to work on the airplane going or coming. Rather, I'll use that time to sort of mentally prepare because when I get off the airplane at a destination, I know I'm on until I get off until I fly out again. There are going to be people who want my attention and all that. So I use that time to relax, and then when I leave again, I don't want to work. I want to be able to kind of unwind. So I like to read and do things like that, but I I use those airplane flights basically as a time to unplug. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  13:49 Yeah, and see, you're being mindful of the space that you need to let yourself unwind and be that much more productive, and have your battery recharged when you're when you're landed. But I think more Michael Hingson  14:01 people should do that. And there are so many different kinds of things that we can do. We collectively, as a society, tend not to be overly introspective. We don't think about things. So something doesn't go right. We consider it a failure. We worry about it. We fret about it. But what we don't do is listen to our own inner voice, and we don't analyze well. So, what was the real problem here? What am I afraid of? What can I do to make sure that this doesn't happen again? We don't ask ourselves those questions. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  14:31 Oh wow! I kind of needed to hear that actually today. So, thank you for bringing that up. You're very right. Michael Hingson  14:37 Is that because you haven't figured out why you live in the snow. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  14:41 I'm working on that. Yeah, there you are. Yeah, cold is actually very good for our vagus nerves. So yeah, Michael Hingson  14:48 well, I it it gets fairly cool here at night. It was down to oh what 27 degrees, so it was like minus. Two or three Celsius a couple of weeks ago here, and but I am I I can keep pretty warm, and when I'm sleeping at night, my cat sleeps right up next to me. She does it because it keeps her warm, but it helps keep me warm too. So I'm not complaining. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  15:19 There you go. Michael Hingson  15:20 But I minus Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  15:21 minus two. By the way, that's beach weather. Michael Hingson  15:24 Yeah, yeah. Well, there you are. Yeah, fine. You go to the beach then. But I, but I think that we we really do need to collectively and individually think about the need to unplug to to not just always do every single thing and that the same way, and then when there's a problem, we don't take time to think about it, which is a real problem. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  15:51 There's also the concept of I don't know if we're raised with this or if at some point we think this is what happens in society, but to think that our lives are almost like a staircase, and that the older we get, the further up the staircase we should be going, is is quite a fallacy. Because again, it you know you're gonna it's just not how it works. Sometimes things stay flat. Sometimes you're gonna go down a few steps. And no, this is called. We're all about the unstoppable mindset here, right? So it really is. If you're falling down a few stairs, what do you do to get back up? I would say, Michael Hingson  16:31 right? Yeah, and that's and that's it. And you have to really look for that answer, which is which is Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  16:40 the issue. So, Michael Hingson  16:41 yeah, go ahead. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  16:42 I was just going to say, like, is that something that people can learn, or is it something that you, you know, is ingrained in you from a younger age? Michael Hingson  16:51 Well, I think that for some people it it may be, and I think, but it is a matter of life. It is a matter of upbringing. I think it is something that people can learn. So during the pandemic, I wrote my book "Live Like a Guide Dog: True Stories for a Blind Person and His Dogs About Being Brave, Overcoming Adversity, and and Moving Forward in Faith. And what I talk about through as the basic premise of the book is that in reality, we can learn to control fear. I will not say we should never be a. We should never say we're not afraid. We should never say that. Oh, I don't ever experience fear. We do experience fear, and it's evidenced in so many ways. But you can either allow fear to overwhelm you and and as I would put it, blind you, or you can learn to control fear. You can learn that fear can be a very powerful tool to help you. And my evidence of that is that I learned so much prior to September 11th about what to do in emergency and other things like that. And all of that clicked in on September 11th. But I realized during the beginning of the pandemic that I'd never taught other people to do the kinds of things that that I do, and that I still tend to do. And so, I wrote "Live Like a Guide Dog" to to try to teach people by using examples that I learned from my eight guide dogs and my wife's service dog about how to live. So, the example I use most often is people. What if everything to death? Well, what if this happens? What if that happens? What if this? What if that? And the reality is, 95% of that will we have no control over, and all we do is create fear and worry because we keep going "What if" about this, and there's nothing we can do about it. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be aware of things, but we don't have to worry about them. We don't have to focus on all the stuff over which we have no control. Dogs don't. What if anything? And I learned that because on September 11th, when we got home, I was going to take my guide dog Rozelle out. I took the harness off, and she ran off and grabbed her favorite tug toy and started playing tug of war with my retired guide dog Linnie. And when I talked to the people, the veterinarians at Guide Dogs for the Blind, where I got Roselle, I talked to them the next day. They said, "Well, did anything threaten her at the World Trade Center? And I said, "No. And they said, "There's your answer. When the harness came off, it was over for her. They don't. They don't. What if? And we should learn that. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  19:27 And she wasn't. She wasn't processing what just happened. She just moved on. Michael Hingson  19:32 She moved on. You know, and and people still today fear it, and they worry about so many Things as I said, the the fact is we should be aware, but it doesn't mean that we have to worry about, especially if we don't have control over it. I rented office space in the World Trade Center in late 1999, early 2000, and. I was able to get office space because there had been a bombing in the World Trade Center in 1993. It wasn't much of a bombing. It was an explosion in a parking lot on the fourth sub sub level of the World Trade Center. So it wasn't the last. Yeah, it wasn't a big thing, but the occupancy rate by the time I was looking for office space, had dropped to 80% and why? If if something were to happen, something would would happen. But people worried about it, and so many people left the World Trade Center, and I thank them for doing that because I got a great rate, and we rented office space there. So fine, but but the fact of the matter is that we worry about so many things over which we just don't have control, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  20:48 right? So you're a bit of a risk taker too in that sense. Michael Hingson  20:51 Well, in a sense, but you know, so there was a bomb that a car something exploded, and I understand that, but was it a true risk to go off and rent space in that building and that complex afterward? Well, is there risk in doing it today with the new complex? The fact of the matter is that there are always going to be things that can happen. the The question is, is it really taking a risk, or are you being silly and putting yourself in harm's way? I won't do that if I can avoid it. But that doesn't mean that I'm not gonna gonna be out there and try to live my life and and help others do the same. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  21:38 That's the biggest thing: not living in fear of of so many different variables, Michael Hingson  21:44 right? So you went to McGill, and you you worked in you graduated with what degrees in business or what? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  21:53 No, I graduated with a bachelor of arts in political science and communications. Okay, I went to McGill thinking that I was going to become a broadcast journalist. I loved the idea of being on camera and in the heat of something going on. And I've been told that I ask a lot of questions, and it's just it comes naturally. I'm very curious, so I love speaking to people and getting their opinions on various things, and then bringing that all together for what hopefully is a representative story of multiple truths, right? And I'm still like that to this day. So everything, if I had you know strength, it would be how do I compile a lot of information and then kind of organize it to to cut certain things out and really get at the crux of whatever it is that we're dealing with. So I loved I loved that. I still do. I had an internship at CTV Montreal, so it was a big news station nationally in Canada. And you know what? It was one of those things where I just didn't feel like a fit for me at that time, and so again, it's what do you do after? Oh, I was entering my my last year of undergrad, and I I thought, okay, maybe I'll just go do a master's because I really loved. I've always loved school, and instead, I got the advice: just go out there and pick something and work a little bit and figure out, you know, what it is that you want to do from there. When you're, I graduated a year early, so I was 21. It is hard to know what you want to do, right? I think a lot of young people find themselves in that position, and instead of, I guess, going back to the idea of fear, instead of being paralyzed by it and not doing anything, just do something, and at least it puts you on some sort of path. So, what did Michael Hingson  23:44 you do? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  23:45 I got lucky. I ended up working for News Corp in Montreal for a couple of years in advertising sales, and that introduced me to the world of advertising. It helped me refine sales sales, you know, efforts and and skills, and I think that understanding how sales work, whatever you do in your life, that's going to come in handy, right? So I was doing that, and I was dealing with agencies and marketers for various different brands, like L'Oreal, for example, Denon, and I liked what they were doing. So then that led me to a job in marketing for a software company, and that's the story: is marketing turned into business development and partnerships, and launching a new tech effort and expanding with that company across the world. And I was able to lean into a lot of writing and speaking, and that's that's how my career evolved. And I did my MBA while I was working for that company, so there were a lot of lots of studying during plane rides. So not quite the unwinding, but it was definitely a break. From the actual work, Michael Hingson  25:02 well, that's fine, and you, you, you've you've done a lot with it. So you got your master's degree. Where did you get that from? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  25:11 That was from Edinburgh Business School. So I did that remotely because I was traveling a lot, and I had a lot of business in the UK. So it made sense to do something around there, and again from there I was recruited to. I built a lot of my own positions while I was at this company, always going, "Oh, this isn't being dealt with. Why don't I take a stab at it and see what happens? Oh, there's a gap here. Let me figure that out. Even you know, the Middle East is one that I like talking about because at the time we were not doing any business there, and I had a hunch that I was like, "Look at all the research. We should be there. We should have a sales rep at least. And the CEO at the time said, "No, no, it's it's not really. I don't agree. So we made a deal for a small amount of money. I was able to figure out my trip and see if I could make a business plan, and so I took a flight from Montreal that had two stops to get there. Lost my luggage, and I know. But on the way back, I mean, long story short, the company now has a thriving business in that region, and while I was there, maybe there's a certain age at which you don't know any better. But I think I've always had this and always will. Is I was raised to understand that if you don't ask, either you don't get or you won't know. So I reached out to the editor of Golf News, which is their biggest paper there? And I said, "Hey, you know, I'm here growing a business in this industry. Can I write an article for you? And he said, "Yes, and it was published. And so stories like that is it kind of defines my life. I always like to figure out what else I could do and and learn from it and push the envelope a little bit. Michael Hingson  27:02 Yeah, sometimes you have to to take a stand. Sometimes you you have to develop your own mental toughness. And when when people disagree, you unless they can really present some strong argument, then you really just need to to push forward. And and clearly that's what you did, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  27:21 yeah. And look, sometimes you're right, and sometimes you're wrong, and that's a learning experience in itself, and that's part of being humbled. And I think that's equally as important. Michael Hingson  27:32 Yeah, and it's all part of the adventure of life. If Speaker 3  27:40 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  28:13 What made you decide to get a doctorate? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  28:16 Ah, so after the MBA again, I loved school, and I figured, why not just keep going? And I was moving to New York, and it was my mom who said, "You know what, Steph? Like, you're. I think I was I was 26. She goes, "Just enjoy your life a little bit, and she wasn't wrong. So I took a few years, and after that, it was still at the back of my mind. I still really wanted to continue and take my education as far as I could. So I thought long and hard about what I would want to study for that kind of time. And you know, it's not going to change the world. But I studied the advertising effects of mass media and ones that have been changing as a result of you know the whole media landscape has been digitized, so that's what I did. And actually, the the brand that I worked with for my research is a company out of California called Goodr. So they they make sunglasses, and I worked with their marketing team, and it was just a wonderful experience. And again, it's a different way of thinking. By that point, I was very much an executive, and I had been at private and public companies. And going back to school in that sense and learning, you know, in the business world, everything is about being concise, which I think is a very powerful skill to have. And in academia, you slow things down, and you really look at the whole picture plus all of the small, small details that build it. So, I'm an impatient person, and that definitely took some some work, but I loved the whole process. It wasn't easy, but I'm very happy that I did it. Michael Hingson  30:03 So, when did you get your PhD? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  30:05 I graduated. I want to say two odd years ago, two or three years ago. Michael Hingson  30:11 Congratulations! Well, that's cool. Thank you Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  30:13 very much. Yeah. Michael Hingson  30:15 How how do you think that AI is affecting the the world of media, the world of public relations and marketing, and so on. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  30:27 So, despite working in ad tech, I myself am quite a luddite. I I'm very removed. I don't have too much social media, and usually with technology, unless it really benefits me, I'm not going to be the first. I'm not going to be an early adopter, if you will. So with AI, I appreciate you know the the code and so on that it's built on all of the the knowledge behind it and how it works. And I definitely think there's so many realms in which it's going to help us advance as a society, and I think that with advertising and marketing and media, AI helps take out. It's there's something that preceded it in terms of media buying called programmatic that I've spent a lot of my career dedicated to, and programmatic just really automated media buying and selling, made a little bit easier than picking up the phone and calling two dozen different vendors to put a campaign together, and so with AI, it does that even more so. It just takes out a lot of the more tedious and redundant work from media planners to strategists and helps us understand a little bit better how marketing dollars are actually put to work, and how effective they are in terms of the results that we see. But here's the thing: is as much as AI is going to simplify certain processes, we, at the end of the day, are human beings, and the reason why, as far as I know, nobody's really mastered the stock market yet. It's because we're driven by emotion and we're fickle, and think it takes a lot for a machine to understand how we think and how we work. And so the same thing applies to advertising because for an ad to be effective, it has to strike a chord with humans somehow. So I think that by nature of us being human, the the world of advertising will still have media departments and creative teams, and have to continue to think about you know the strategy behind what it is that we're doing. Michael Hingson  32:34 How about social? What would you say? Well, I I think there's a lot of truth to all that. I think that AI is a tool, and different people will use it in different ways. And I'm not going to even go to the negative aspects of it because the the reality is most anything that we create, somebody will find a way to misuse it, and and I can't worry about that. But I do see the value of AI and the AI technology, in terms of how it can help us codify or create different kinds of aspects of whether it's marketing or or anything else, AI can assist us. But it is a tool, and we're still the humans, and we're going to be the ones that will be in control. I'm not ready to accept that it can take over in the end. I don't think that's going to happen. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  33:28 I'm still. I'm still not even thinking about Michael Hingson  33:32 it. Yeah, I just think I think there are a lot of ways that we can use it. AI has done already a number of really good things for us collectively, and I think that's great. That doesn't mean that we're all going to use it, or that doesn't mean that we'll all use it extremely, well, in an extremely productive way all the time. But it is out there, and I think it's again, it's one of those things that's worth learning about and understanding because it's going to be here. It's not going away, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  34:07 right? Michael Hingson  34:08 How about social media? That's the that's the other one that's become even more pervasive. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  34:14 And social media, again, just by nature of who I am, I am not big on it, and it's not knocking it. I just know that it's not, it's not something that I want to have in my life to the extent that some others do want it in theirs. I'm really good with just doing my own thing and focusing on my little bubble in terms of you know the restaurants that I choose to go to and what food I'm eating and and all of that and with the people who are in my life I love hearing from them directly and getting updates and seeing their pictures so I definitely I use LinkedIn for business I think it's fantastic yeah and it's a wonderful platform to to build a profile and interact with people. Your world that way, and I think that there's a lot of people doing the same with other platforms. And so, when I look at social media from a business perspective, I think it's amazing. And when I look at it from a personal perspective, again, it's not for me, but I I think if people enjoy being on it, that's totally up to them. I can't. I just don't really have the patience to to. I'd rather do something else. I'd rather work on, you know, either my my full time job or my my business is on the side, or go for a walk. Quite frankly. Well, Michael Hingson  35:39 I think again, I'm I'm I'm kind of with you. I think that, especially personally speaking, people who spend hours a day on social media are missing out on so many other kinds of things that would would be even better. And and a lot of that has to do with personal contact with other people, which you don't have. No matter what people may say, you don't have when you're just dealing with communicating through social media. That's not the same. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  36:08 It's true. Plus, there's the element. Yeah, and there's I think people feel pressure, and we see this. It goes both ways, but I do think there's a bit of a pressure to put your best foot forward in a social media environment, right? Whether it's Photoshop or editing or posing for you know a lovely photo when you're not doing great, whatever it might be, and I think that's slowly changing. But for me, it's more. Think we're all just trying to do our best, and you know, I don't. It just doesn't work for me on a personal level. Michael Hingson  36:45 Yeah, I think we should try to be doing our best all the time, anyway. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  36:48 Yeah, that's true. Exactly. We should. Well, that actually leads me to. This is a. You know, I'm. I'm going to go for it. This is a plug. It's. I wrote a book called My Very Best for that reason. Actually, I was going to talk to you about that. Yeah, go Michael Hingson  37:03 ahead. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  37:04 So you know exactly what you're doing. Yeah. And by the Michael Hingson  37:07 way, I would appreciate it because I don't think that you did send me a picture of the book cover that we can put in the the notes, the show notes. I Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  37:14 did, and I will follow up with that again. Thank you so much. It's that was something that I've always wanted to do. When I was younger, my mom tells me about how I used to bring a stack of books over to her to read to me, and I definitely have fond memories of reading books to my sister, who's younger than me. And I've always just loved children's books because they're they're so beautiful in their simplicity and the way that they can frame a young mind into being curious and imagining and learning so much about the world, and so I wanted to definitely write a book about the values that my sister and I were raised with. She told me that she was having our first child about a year ago at this time, and so in that time frame, I was like, "This is the moment. This is when I have to write a book. And so I wrote it for for him and her, my nephew. And it was one thing where I just I started with writing out the the copy, and then I needed to get it illustrated, and then from there I was like, you know what? I've done all this work. Let me let me publish it. And so I just was a big learning experience and so much fun. And I had readings, and I just went to go see it on the shelf at Canada's biggest bookstore called Indigo. And I'm I'm so thrilled. So I wrote it because my parents really-they raised my sister and I to really understand that it's not about being the best; it's about giving something your best effort. Because that way, you know, if you do well, great-you worked really hard to get there. And if you don't do well, you're not going to be wondering, hmm, if I only had tried more, because then you're disappointed with yourself. So it's about setting yourself up to always be proud of who you are, and that's really important to me. Michael Hingson  39:11 Are there any books, other books inside of you that may come on in the future? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  39:14 Oh, well, that one I I'm loving right now. If we consider my thesis, my doctoral thesis, a book, that one will put you to sleep because it's long and quite academic. Many theses Michael Hingson  39:31 will do that. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  39:32 Yeah, and I think I quite like. I can see moving forward the more journalistic style articles. So maybe there are a few of those that address very specific moments or questions. Maybe we'll we'll see some of those come out. And what about you? Given that you are also you're a New York Times bestseller, do you have anything up your sleeve? Michael Hingson  39:53 Not at the moment, but we'll see down the line. But one of the things that that I believe. His and I and I've roused about this even on the podcast a few times. I think that textbooks are so boring, and they shouldn't be. I think that every every textbook that that someone writes ought to have some personal things in it to help draw readers into being more excited about learning more about what's in the textbook. So a physics book is is real lovely, but it's very boring. Why don't Why don't they have Why don't the physicists, the scientists who create those books, put in as part of what they do some stories about their efforts, some stories about the discoveries they've made to really make the books more personal and to draw people in. Publishers don't want that, but the reality is it would really attract, I think, a lot more interest in textbook material. And and the same thing with technical journals and technical manuals. They're so boring, and there's so much more that could be done with them. I think that would would attract people much more than than they do today. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  41:07 There's something about humanizing and adding a little bit of maybe even imperfection. Dare I say, like, hey, this is what happened, and let's be real about the situation. That yeah, makes it more entertaining for sure. Yeah, Michael Hingson  41:20 yeah, which I think makes makes perfect sense, and and it would be I think a wonderful thing to do. Well, maybe we'll have to start a new publishing company and insist that the people who write books for our company do that. Some to think about it. I'm with you. We Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  41:38 can we can offline on that. Michael Hingson  41:40 Yeah, ought to be able to do something with it. Well, so anyway, for you, so you wrote the children's book, and and it's out there. Did you self publish it, or was it published by a company? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  41:53 Yeah, I went through a company based in New Jersey, and they just had the perfect platform and distribution for me, and it really-I would say-around the time that I was 35, which is now when I turned that age, I really started thinking about like you know, okay, our life doesn't have to be cut and paste, and there really is no manual. And I had thought that for most of it, I would look at people that I admire or respect, or people around me, and look at them, evaluate the milestones that they had reached by specific ages, and then I'd look at myself, and you know, sometimes I was feeding those milestones. In my opinion, like I, I worked my way up the corporate ladder very quickly, but there were other ways in which, at the time, I thought I was lagging or, or dare I say, failing, because certain other elements of my life weren't where other people's were, or I thought it should be. So I've been going through a process really of of letting that go, and again, just to your going full circle to what you said earlier, just being a bit more introspective and appreciating that we're all again trying to just do our best here, and nobody's journey is going to look the same. So with that has just come. I've always again I've always wanted to try new things, but it always is. I'll wake up in the morning and go like, you know, what do I want to do today? Who should I reach out to to see if there's some way to collaborate or have a new experience? And it's just made for really fun travels and stories and successes and and learning experiences. And I'm, but I'm working on that. I can say that as much as I want, and I think, you know, it's it's really believing it that is a bit more of an effort. Michael Hingson  43:48 Well, there you go, and you know, it'll it'll be interesting to to see how it all comes out as you go forward. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  43:54 Yeah, did you have that at all throughout yours? As you know, those periods of of Like plateaus, Michael Hingson  44:02 I think probably so, but I but I don't think that I really ever thought that that I was failing. There were times that that things were not happening the way I would like, and usually what I needed to do was to make an adjustment in my attitude to understand why things were going slower or not the way I expected, and sometimes they weren't going the way I expected because I had the wrong expectations. And again, I love introspection, and those are things that I learned along the way. And I also discovered that when I reevaluated and said, "Oh, maybe this really wasn't the right way to do this. Let's look at this. I think that's that's an important thing to do, but I usually find, and I still do, that if something's not working right. Usually, my inner voice, if you will, will tell me what is good, what's working, what's not working, what should be done, and I have to be the one to pay attention to that. and And if I don't, then I can get into trouble. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  45:15 It's amazing how much our our gut instincts really know what's best for us in certain situations, and how sometimes it takes a minute for our brain to to get there too. Michael Hingson  45:29 Yeah. Now, are you a spiritual person at all? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  45:32 Oh, totally. Another good segue. Yes, I believe in the scientific method, obviously. So, so that's that's that. But I am comforted by the idea that there's a lot more to what we're doing here than what is commonly accepted. Michael Hingson  45:50 Yeah, I think I think that's absolutely true, and that gets back to my comment about the inner voice, which is, if you want to say God talking to us or however you want to view it. It doesn't matter. the The point is that I think the information is there if we learn to listen and and accept it. Our our own minds absorb so many things that we tend to forget about, but all that information is there for us to use if we would, but tap into it, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  46:24 yeah, Michael Hingson  46:24 or allow it, or when it and it when it tries to tap us on the shoulder and say do it this way, we need to learn to listen. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  46:32 Ooh, and that's a great point too. Is for people who are used to propelling, you know, things forward, and you had mentioned what's out of our control. That's another really important word that I speak about in wellness and has been given to me. Yeah, do I see a do I see a psychic? Absolutely. I often get the words render because, again, sometimes it's just it's being able to to accept, and I do a little bit of Kabbalah in terms of reading and and learning about how that works. And the the term actually means to receive. So when we look at what we're doing here again, I think you want to put out some energy to put things in motion, and then there's a point where you just have to let life come to you. Michael Hingson  47:21 Well, and I think also it's it's so helpful at night to when when falling asleep, even you want to do something. Ask your ask yourself, what do you think about this? Should I do this? Give me guidance and give me insight as to what works. The more of that we do, the more we develop our mind muscle to be able to get the information and process it and do something with it, and that will help us. But it it has to be a discipline that we create and develop to really work on getting that information and seeking it every day, and listening to what our minds are telling us. I, people probably will get bored with this because I say it often on the podcast, but I talk about Trivial Pursuit. You know the game. How often do we get a question asked on a game, Trivial Pursuit, and we immediately think of an answer, and we go, "Oh, that was just too easy. That can't be it. And we think a little bit more about other options, and we choose a different option. But the first one that we thought about was really the right answer. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  48:33 Yes, Michael Hingson  48:34 exactly. And the point is that happened, and people agree. Now, what do we do about it? Well, we learn to listen to that inner voice. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  48:42 The same thing happens with students, by the way, on exams. Multiple choice is not always that easy because so many students have the tendency to second guess themselves. Michael Hingson  48:53 Yeah, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  48:54 and it's usually that their first instinct was the right answer. Michael Hingson  48:57 Right. Yeah. If they would just but listen and learn; they'll get the right answer by doing that. And and the reality is that I think there are some studies that have been done that people that truly do learn to listen and take those first answers and use them tend to be right a whole lot more often than they otherwise would have been, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  49:21 yeah. Again, trusting our instincts, Michael Hingson  49:25 right? Yeah. So, what kind of projects are you working on now? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  49:30 Oh, well, again, I I'm an EVP at an ad agency, so that's my that's my full time project. EVP. But then I always EVP, Executive Vice President. Michael Hingson  49:40 Oh, EVP. Okay, yeah, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  49:41 yeah. Okay, Michael Hingson  49:42 VP. Okay, got Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  49:43 it. Yeah, with an E. You know, if we're if we're looking at, so that keeps me very busy. And then on the side, I always again, I think it's very important to have an identity outside of work, and this is something that I actually had to learn. Because for a while there, my my job title and so on was my whole life, and you can do have hobbies and so on. The side for me, it has to be more constructive than that. So the other things that I have on the go is I have my company Tuxedo Concepts, where I do all different types of consulting work. I have clients across the world in the world of media through to you know a private equity fund called Links Equity, and I'm actually working on a protein superfood snack right now called Balance Bites. So that's another I'm snacking all the time, and I have a massive sweet tooth, so usually I'm going for like the brownies and the cookies, and I work with the founder of this brand, and they're packed with a lot of nutrients that give me a lot more energy throughout the day. So that is something that I definitely want to bring to more people. Michael Hingson  50:58 Oh, that's exciting! Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  50:59 It lines very nicely with this this whole wellness kick that that I'm trying to bring to others, but not not in the lifestyle that's impractical to some people or makes them you know not even want to think about it. More so again with those ideas of if you're feeling overwhelmed or anxious, splash some cold water on your face, right? Like there's there's certain tips like that that you don't have to go to a yoga studio or sign up for a gym membership. Though you know you should be exploring physical activity. It's what are small things that we can be doing for ourselves to bring us back into the moment. Michael Hingson  51:37 Do you think there are things in your life that that you're not doing that-that you should be doing, or that that you miss. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  51:46 Oh, on a personal level, I feel yeah. At this age, that probably from a family perspective, I should be getting on that. But that is one of those things that is so out of our control, and I find that in those instances, just it's very easy to look at what we don't have and yearn for it, but that can be depressing. So instead, it's it's much more fulfilling to look at what we do have and lean into that. Right? Michael Hingson  52:19 Yeah, I know that when my wife and I got married, we both pretty much thought we knew what we wanted in a partner, and we kept looking until we found it. We found each other, and and that worked. But we were I was 32 and she was 33, so we didn't get married right away, but the other side of it is we met in January of 1982, and we got married in November of 1982 because it clicked. We knew what we wanted, and we saw things in so many ways exactly the same. But there were also times that we disagreed with things. But you communicate. You you work through it, right? Michael Hingson  53:03 So, for example, she didn't want to have children because she felt that that would be kind of hard on her body being in a chair in her case, and I was fine with that. But our our solution to that was we'll be glad to entertain nieces and nephews and things like that because at the end of the day, we can either sell them to the gypsies or send them home, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  53:24 and that's beautiful, right? You still have such a wonderful impact on other people, and that's a thank you for sharing that. And one of my one Michael Hingson  53:34 of our nieces lives about three miles from me, and we see each other all the time. She and her husband, and now their kids are grown and have kids of their own, so we we get to see everybody. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  53:47 That is lovely. What about you? Are there any things that you still have on your bucket list that you'd like to be doing right now? Michael Hingson  53:55 Well, I certainly want to do more speaking because I want to keep that going. I'd like to to travel more, but it's not nearly as fun for me, at least traveling alone. But one of these one of these years, certainly in the next two or so years, I'll probably decide to take a cruise because I love cruising. Yeah, me Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  54:15 too. Michael Hingson  54:16 And I and I can do really fine cruising. I think that's a lot of fun to Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  54:21 do. Definitely. Which which part of the world would you cruise in? Michael Hingson  54:25 You know, I'm pretty open on that. I I first of all, I've been to New Zealand. I'd love to go to Australia, but as far as cruising, I'm pretty open. I'd like to to do a cruise up and down the Mississippi River, but I'd like to to to do some cruising around Europe or other places as well. I think it'd be fun. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  54:46 Yes, I I very much agree. My family went on. I was very fortunate. We did four cruises together, my parents, sister, and I all over the Caribbean and Mexico, and then I did one in South America, and I've done one. In Greece and Turkey, and I also I took a catamaran with about a dozen strangers in Thailand for almost two weeks. Yes, well, because why not? Michael Hingson  55:12 First cruise that we took, Karen was a travel agent at the time, actually, and her family wanted to go on a cruise. We did a two week Trans Panama Canal cruise, that was a lot of fun. Loved it. Then we did a cruise to Mexico, and I think we did another cruise in the Caribbean, and then the last cruise we took was to Alaska, which was a lot of fun. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  55:42 Okay, that is wonderful. Michael Hingson  55:45 Yeah. Was there anything Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  55:45 in Alaska that surprised you? Michael Hingson  55:48 Nothing that surprised me. It was just fun to go for me and and Karen actually. Although it's fun to get off and tour, we're fine if we're just on the ship the whole time, even just because it's the it's relaxing, it's the attitude and and and having fun. But but I would like to go and and cruise some. I think we'll do that sometime in the near future. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  56:13 Well, I mean, I'm all for it. You let me know when you go. Want to go? Yeah, I'm down. Michael Hingson  56:20 Yeah, we'll have to do that. That'd be fun, but yeah, we'll kick off Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  56:24 our textbook company on the cruise. Michael Hingson  56:26 There you go. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  56:27 Multitask Michael Hingson  56:28 books afloat Inc. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  56:30 Love Michael Hingson  56:33 it, but I think there's there's so much to do that you know we'll make it work. So you um um we talked about a little bit, but you really feel that having been in a variety of cities has helped your life perspective. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  56:48 Definitely. Look, the the way that you're just talking about travel, it's the same thing. Where I've lived in four cities and have traveled to many more, and it shapes you certainly when you when you make moves, I moved a couple times for work, for example. You are often finding yourself somewhere where you're alone, and you have to build a whole new community and support system. And sometimes that can be very lonely. And as much as I love spending time with myself, or but I think overall it really proves to you that you can be resilient and you can make you know wonderful things out of situations that you you didn't know what would happen, right? So similar to you not knowing that you would live where you do now, yeah, it's a beautiful testament to what we can do as humans, what we're capable of. Michael Hingson  57:44 Life's an adventure. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  57:46 I know. I love that theory. Michael Hingson  57:48 So, for you, what's been one of your biggest learning lessons over the last year? Since I assume you still believe that you learn all the time, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  57:57 I learn all the time. And again, I think it really is just going back to the spirituality element. Man plans, God laughs. I definitely have thought that there's a lot in my life that I had the ability to plan out. And even when I think things are going in a certain direction, the universe has this fun way of you know establishing a plot twist and seeing how I react to it. So yeah, maybe it's it's not take certain things as seriously and and kind of learn to go with the flow a little bit more. That's the biggest lesson there. Michael Hingson  58:33 Good for you. That's a that's a very important lesson. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  58:37 Yeah. So maybe it's a little bit later in life, but you know, it's never too late for these things. Michael Hingson  58:43 Never. What would be Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  58:44 one of yours? Michael Hingson  58:46 Well, I think for me, spending more time being introspective has has been a great lesson for me, and I've learned to to step back and again not plan so much, as you said. Man plans, God laughs. I don't know. I would say God laughs. God's just patient, and He says, "Go do what you're going to do, and then let me know when you're ready to get real. But you know, I I think there's a lot of truth to that. So for me, I'm just constantly learning to be a little bit more patient, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  59:22 a good one too. Michael Hingson  59:24 So, what kind of advice would you give to an up-and-coming entrepreneur or person about living life? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  59:32 Ah, Speaker 4  59:34 just Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  59:35 do do everything. Do everything that you want to do. Really, would be because I think that like the more that you try, the more you are learning about what you are capable of and who you are as a person. The more different types of people that you meet, the more opportunities that might come your way. And some of it you're not going to like. That's a learning lesson. And some of it. You're going to love. So, if there's, so I would say do all of that, and then the other one is, is make it happen, because nothing will come to you if you are not going after it. And I just said that we have to surrender and let things come to us, but I really believe that there has to be not a manifestation, but really just some intention to push us in a certain direction, and that that hard work is necessary in anything that's really good that comes to us in life. Anything that's good is going to take work. Michael Hingson  1:00:36 The only thing that I would add to that is when you said there are things that might might be happening. That might happen that you don't like. My only comment to that would be: step back and try to figure out why you don't like them, and see if there's really a reason. Because we we we are such a knee jerk reaction society. It's always good to analyze and go, what really is the issue here? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:01:00 Yeah, you're so right. Michael Hingson  1:01:02 Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely fun. It has now been over an hour, and it's got to be past the beginning of your dinner time. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:01:12 It's almost past my bedtime on a Friday night. How about there? You go. Well, Michael Hingson  1:01:17 I really appreciate you doing this and and spending the time with us, and I I've learned a lot, and I hope other people have. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:01:27 Oh, please reach out on LinkedIn. It's just Stephanie Gutnick. You'll find me. Michael Hingson  1:01:33 Spell that if you would, just to play safe. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:01:35 Yes, absolutely. S T E P H A N I E, and the last name is Gutnick. G U T is in Tom and is in Nancy I K. Michael Hingson  1:01:45 So hunt down Stephanie on LinkedIn. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:01:49 Stephanie doesn't know who Tom or Nancy are, but she just thought that those would be helpful names. Well, Michael Hingson  1:01:54 there you go. Well, hey, whatever works. Yeah, Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:01:57 exactly. Michael Hingson  1:01:58 There you are, Michael. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:01:59 Thank you so much. Michael Hingson  1:02:00 It's been a pleasure. Well, I want to thank all of you for being here with us, and hope you've learned some things today, and that you've enjoyed it. Wherever you're monitoring our podcast, please give us a five star review. But even more, or rating, but more important, give us a great review. Reviews are things that people like to see when they're thinking about what podcast to listen to, so we value your reviews greatly. And if you'd like to reach out to me, it's easy. It's speaker, S P E A K E R at Michael Hinkson, M I C H A E L H I N G S O n.com. Love to hear from you. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest on the podcast, let us know. Stephanie, you as well. Always looking for more people, and so I appreciate you doing that. And with that, Stephanie, once more, thanks for being here. This has been fun. Dr. Stephanie Gutnik  1:02:50 Thank you so much. I very much agree. Michael Hingson  1:02:55 Thank you for being here with me on Unstoppable Mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to MichaelHingson.com and download my free ebook, Blinded by fear, it explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset.

What happens when the career you built changes, disappears, or no longer feels right? I talk with content marketing leader Nicole Pytel about career change, burnout prevention, imposter syndrome, entrepreneurship, professional identity, and the growing role of AI in content marketing. Nicole shares how she moved from sports journalism into business, built her own agency, learned to shut work off, and later chose employment over entrepreneurship without seeing it as a step backward. We also explore what layoffs can teach us about identity, why confidence can exist beside fear, and how AI can support human skill instead of replacing it. Her story is a strong reminder to trust what you know, keep learning, and ask yourself one powerful question: Why not you? Highlights: 21:44 - The turning point that pushed Nicole to leave television. 28:50 - Why never shutting off from work led to burnout. 39:34 - How confidence can exist alongside fear and imposter syndrome. 45:35 - What a layoff can reveal about professional identity and self-worth. 50:24 - Why AI still needs human judgment, strategy, and creativity. 1:00:24 - Why trusting your gut can make career change worth the risk. About the Guest: Nicole Pytel is a content marketing leader who's spent her career translating complicated things into stories people actually want to hear — first from a newsroom, now from the executive table. Her career started in TV news as a sports reporter, where she covered the legendary Friday night lights of high school football and spent her Saturdays on the sidelines of Texas A&M's Kyle Field. She was eventually promoted to news anchor, and those days of turning complex topics into compelling stories still shape how she approaches content strategy today. Nicole then spent nearly a decade as the founder of Premier Content Source, a content marketing agency she grew to serve over 1,000 clients across multiple industries. She later worked as an embedded content marketing expert inside teams at Google Cloud, Chrome Enterprise, and YouTube. Most recently, Nicole served as Vice President of Content Marketing at Firebrand Communications, where she built the agency's content marketing line of business from zero and held a seat on the executive leadership team. Today, Nicole is focused on how AI is changing content marketing, building a four-chapter framework for how content teams should operate now that AI has fundamentally changed how buyers search, discover, and evaluate the companies they work with. Whether it's a thirty-second news segment or a company's entire content strategy, Nicole's guiding belief hasn't changed: if you can't make the audience care, you're just making noise. Ways to connect with Nicole**:** LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolepytelmarketing/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, hi again, everyone, and once again, it is time for another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. We are having a lot of fun doing these podcast recordings, and I really appreciate all of you being out there. Love to hear from you if any of you have any comments on any of the things that we talk about, or even if you don't comment anyway. We'd love to hear from you, but I really appreciate you all being here and and and interacting with us today. We get to chat with Nicole Pytel. My screen reader pronounces it Pytel, but you know we were just besmirching technology, and it deserves it because it should pronounce it right. But anyway, that's okay. But no help. Nicole has been very much involved in a lot of content marketing and in a variety of things. I think we're going to have a lot of fun chatting and talking about different business things, and who knows what else will come up in the course of the conversation. That's what makes it fun because it is truly and always is intended to be a conversation. And who the heck knows where things may go as we follow along? But we'll make it work. So Nicole, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset. We're glad you're here. Nicole Pytel  02:08 Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm so excited, and yeah, I can't wait to see where the conversation goes. Michael Hingson  02:14 I can't either. It'll we'll have a lot of fun with it. Well, I love to start this way. Tell us about the early Nicole, growing up and and all that. Let's get people to have a chance to get to know you a little bit. Nicole Pytel  02:28 Yeah, well, the the early Nicole is a a Florida native. I know people are always a little baffled by that. Not everybody in this state is from a transplant from New York or Philly or Boston or any of those places. Some of us are born here. And have you made Michael Hingson  02:43 and have you made friends with all the gators? Nicole Pytel  02:46 Ah, no, no. I stay away from the gators. Antisocial, Michael Hingson  02:50 aren't Nicole Pytel  02:51 they? They're yeah, they're they're a bit unfriendly. Yeah, I've I've never seen one in the wild, and I I'd like to keep it that way. Yeah, I hear you for sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, born in Miami, grew up in Fort Lauderdale. the The only daughter of two former Miami Dade police officers. So, yes, yes. My mom was actually an undercover narc in the days of the cocaine cowboys. So, she is incapable of being intimidated. And personally, I think she's amazing and also a little crazy for doing that. But yeah, grew up as an only child, had you know four-legged brothers. You know, just had a great childhood. You know, just really like as great as it could be. You know, dad worked from home, had his own business. Mom worked with dad a lot of the time and was in the PTA and running the Girl Scouts and the young astronauts and all all the things. So, you know, really great childhood and a lot of lessons that really kind of you know still stick with me today and kind of gave me that foundation to go and do all the really cool things I've done as a grown-up. A lot of lessons learned. So you know, it was a good childhood. Michael Hingson  04:06 What did your dad do, and what does he do? Nicole Pytel  04:09 He well, he was after he left the police force. He started his own business. He reconstructed traffic accidents. So he was an expert witness. His clients were personal injury attorneys in South Florida, which is probably the worst client you could have on the planet. Those are some demanding folks. He handled it really, really well. He had his own business for gosh, 30 years. So yeah, he was he was amazing. Michael Hingson  04:38 Did he ever consult for CSI Miami. Nicole Pytel  04:43 No, he did not. Just checking. Did not. The one that was the one cool thing he didn't do. No. Michael Hingson  04:48 Yeah. Well, talk about the potential for pressure, but that's okay. Sounded like he had a a good time and enjoyed what he did, and and it does sound very fascinating. It is. It is Nicole Pytel  05:02 indeed. Although you know, when you're learning to drive as a teenager and your father does that for a living, you know, you've you've seen all the terrifying accident photos and heard all the stories, and so it's a it's a little stressful learning to drive from somebody who sees the worst of the worst every single day, but you know, we made it. Michael Hingson  05:23 And did Dad work as a backseat driver for you every so often? Nicole Pytel  05:27 Oh, 100% 100% literally. I mean, till the day he died, he was the world's worst backseat driver. I, you know, I'm in my 30s, and he's like, "What are you doing? You know, so yeah, absolutely, 100% Michael Hingson  05:42 How about mom? Nicole Pytel  05:44 Oh, mom, mom is amazing, and yes, she's a backseat driver as well. Okay, I am as well. So, but you know, mom, mom is tough and and also amazing, and you know, such a a great mom to her fur kids and a good grandma to my fur kids, and you know, just just amazing the life that she's had. You know, just grew up as a State Department brat, lived all over the world, was cop, like just wild, just wild. So I I have I have some very cool parents. Michael Hingson  06:15 Do you have any kids of the two legged variety? Nicole Pytel  06:18 Not the two legged variety. I've got two of the four-legged kind. Yeah, Michael Hingson  06:22 that works. Yeah, they're they're demanding enough. Nicole Pytel  06:26 Oh, mine are little little tiny divas. Absolutely, and I'm proud of it. They were raised to be little spoiled divas. Michael Hingson  06:33 Well, I have my guide dog Alamo, and we have a cat who's now 16 and a half years old, named Stitch. She's the real demanding one, she she likes to be petted while she eats, and the only way to keep her from disturbing a podcast to get fed is to keep the door closed, which I do. But the the thing is that if if the door opened, she'd probably be in here, and she would be insisting pretty loudly if I didn't respond, that she needs me to go pet her while she eats. She loves it, and it's fine. There are just a few times that she doesn't get to do it, and mostly she's pretty quiet about it since the door's closed. But when we're done, I'll open the door, and I will hear from her pretty quickly that time for more food. Nicole Pytel  07:21 She's got you well trained. Very good. Have you well Michael Hingson  07:24 trained? Yeah. Now Alamo, Alamo, my guide dog, is a clock watcher, so he's going to get his his afternoon treat a half hour late, and and he's pretty quiet about that sort of stuff. He's pretty pretty nonplussed about it. He won't come over and bug me, even though he's here in the room during the podcast because he knows what's going on, but by the same token, as soon as we're done, he's going to be out there going, "It's after 130, Buster. Nicole Pytel  07:51 I hear you. Minnie, Minnie and Megs will be the same way. Don't you worry; it'll be time for their dinner when we're done here. So, yeah, they'll they'll be ready. Michael Hingson  08:00 Yeah, well, and Stitch also gets some treats in the evening. She gets them around 630 at night, but at five she starts demanding them, and she doesn't want to eat anything that's left over in her food bowl. She wants her treats, and she knows she's not going to get them until after 630, but she pushes anyway. Ah, it's fun. I wouldn't have it any other way, though. Nicole Pytel  08:23 No, absolutely not. They are just little rays of sunshine. Michael Hingson  08:27 They are. So you went to college, I gather. Nicole Pytel  08:30 I did. I went to the University of Miami. Both my parents did as well. Dad actually played football there back in the day. Yeah, actually, I mean, honestly, growing up, I pretty much lived at the Orange Bowl on Saturdays. We had season tickets to the Hurricanes, and you know, learned about football very, very early on. I was actually, I think I was like five, and I was sitting there on a Saturday playing with my Barbies, and Dad came in and was like, "All right, come on, put the Barbie dolls down. We're gonna go watch football. You're gonna learn about football, and I was I was hooked ever ever since. So you know, who needs copies? Michael Hingson  09:10 I got hooked more on on baseball. Of course, I still am of the opinion that for the longest time, we had the best announcers in baseball here in California. We had Vince Scully, we had Dick Enberg, and so many people. And I learned baseball from Vin Scully. I learned all about the rules and so on, because he could announce the game, and he could include stories, but never missed announcing what was going on on the field. So you you got both, and I don't think there are many announcers today who can do that. And they've got buddies, and they they kind of talk together, but they're yammering a lot and not announcing the game, which is all the more no fun. So yeah, what do you do? Nicole Pytel  09:54 Yeah, there's something special about those guys that can just do it solo for nine innings, especially with all the break. In between pitches and things like that, I mean that's it's a lot of air to fill. So yeah, I mean Vince Gully. There's there's nobody better to learn from. Michael Hingson  10:09 No, nobody better than Vinny ever ever in baseball. And and as I said, Dick Enberg was out here, and and then in basketball we had Chick Hearn who could talk faster than anybody in the world, which was pretty cool, and there were some other announcers. They weren't necessarily just announcers like Vinny. I mean, Harry Carey, who did the Cubs, and but he was well loved and had a great personality, and it was a lot of fun. But Vinny was definitely the best, and then Dick Enberg, who also did football, and I learned a lot about football from from him, which was kind of fun. But I've always been a baseball fan. Nicole Pytel  10:46 Same, I love baseball as well. There's just something so quintessentially like wholesome and American about baseball. It's just like the hot dog, and you know, there's just something about baseball where you just feel like just a pure good old fashioned American kind of thing, you know. It's just got this feeling Michael Hingson  11:08 to it. Yeah. Well, so you went and got. Did you do advanced degrees or just a bachelor's? Nicole Pytel  11:14 I did my bachelor's. Yeah. I I went into broadcasting. Actually, majored in in broadcast journalism and psychology. Ah, wow, that's a Michael Hingson  11:23 combination. Nicole Pytel  11:24 It is, you know, I the psychology part. You know, I've always been fascinated of like why people do what they do, and I wanted to be a sports journalist. You know, ever since I can remember, and I was like, well, what a great way to really understand people if you're going to interview them and talk to them all the time, and and tell them stories, you know, through the TV. Like, what a great way to understand them. Take take psychology, learn all about that. And and now that I'm in marketing, it's it's the same thing. Trying to figure out, you know, why'd they click on that ad and not this one? Why'd they open this email and not that one? Why'd they, you know, read this case study and not that one. So it's it that that major was kind of the gift that keeps on giving. Michael Hingson  12:07 Now you, so you got your bachelor's and then you went into broadcast journalism. Nicole Pytel  12:13 I did. I did. I I took off to College Station, Texas, to be a great reporter. Yeah, really no better place. I mean, you know, you start in broadcasting, and you're going to start in a small market. And there's all kinds of cities in in the country that I'm sure are lovely, but you've never heard of them before. Your God only knows what you're going to cover. But I was very, very blessed. I got to go to College Station, Texas, so that is the home of Texas A and M, and of course Friday Night Football, the local high schools. You know that the that was my job to cover that stuff. So you can't really ask for anything better than that for a first job out of school. Michael Hingson  12:55 So did you did you announce the games or what did you do? Nicole Pytel  12:58 I didn't. I was a I was a sports reporter for one of the local affiliates in town. So, and I was a one-man band. So I shot everything, edited everything, reported everything. I did, I did all the things, all the things. No photog following me around. No, no, nothing. It was all me. So I was the one, you know, on the sidelines shooting the games or standing behind home plate, and you know it was it was fun. It was it was definitely an adventure. We could probably do an entire podcast just on crazy stories about that. Well, Michael Hingson  13:29 how long ago was that? Nicole Pytel  13:30 Oh gosh, more years ago than I I'd like to think. My goodness, I went out there in 2006. So Michael Hingson  13:39 digital cameras had started to come into play. Nicole Pytel  13:44 Yeah, sort of. Although when you're working in a small market, they don't have the newest equipment, so the cameras were still big and heavy. You had this big bag of stuff to lug around. You had the big heavy tripod. You know, you're kind of going like carrying your weight in stuff. Yeah, you know, and and I'm doing it, you know, depending on where I'm going, you know, in in like dress clothes and and heels and and trying not to fall over, you know. So, but um, yeah, no, it's that was still the big and bulky stuff back then. Michael Hingson  14:14 Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm not surprised, and at the same time, you did it. What's what's the most memorable, if you have one, memorable event or thing that you can think of that you did while you were out there in Texas doing football and baseball and all that? Nicole Pytel  14:30 Oh man, there's there's so many, there's so many. But I think one of the coolest things I got to do was, you know, Kyle Field, which is Texas A&M's home stadium. It is it is enormous. It seats you know 100,000 plus people, and you know being there on a Saturday is is unreal. It's loud. Those are probably some of the most devoted fans on the planet. They never sit down. They they. Practice all their cheers the night before. I mean, it's just wild. But you know, I used to do obviously during the season. I'd go to the weekly press conferences during the week, and I'd I'd do stories. And you know, I never. I don't know if I ever told anybody this publicly, but they used to leave a chain link gate open at Kyle Field on Tuesday afternoons. It was just unlocked, and so I would I would go in there, and the stadium would be totally empty except for me, not a soul. And I'd go in there, and I was you know shooting my own stuff. So I had it all figured out where exactly where I had to put the camera and exactly how I had the angle of the tripod and exactly where I had to stand, so that I could get there. Home of the 12th man sign like right over my shoulder, the perfect shot for you know my stand up and my story. And so every every Tuesday I'd go in there. I'd kind of sneak in. I don't know to this day if they ever knew I was in there, but but being in there, you know, on the 50-yard line of this enormous stadium, all by yourself-it's totally silent. You know what it's like at at peak velocity volume, and being in there all by yourself, you're just like, this is the coolest thing I know ever. Like this is amazing. It's wild. It's just wild. Michael Hingson  16:19 Well, I won't tell anyone. I mean, it's sort of like Vin Scully, who always said, "This is between me and you, nobody else. Nicole Pytel  16:24 Exactly, exactly. Michael Hingson  16:26 Nobody will hear it. It's okay. That's that's cool. The only thing I would say about that is, and I experience this. If you talk about crazy fans, Kentucky and football is just as challenging, I went to do a speech somewhere, and the speech was on Monday night. It was the NCAA championship in football, and the and the Kentucky Wildcats were one of the teams. And I was told that my speech had to end at 630. It could not go any later because if it went later, I'd be speaking to an empty gym. Nicole Pytel  17:04 Yes, you would absolutely no pressure, no pressure. No, no Michael Hingson  17:07 pressure at all. Well, I kept an eye on the time and and ended it right at 630, and by 631, the place was empty. It was crazy. Nicole Pytel  17:14 Cleared out, cleared out. Well, hey, that speaks well for you that they were all there before the game. They weren't tailgating or anything, you you were bigger than the tailgate. Michael Hingson  17:22 I guess so, but it was it was fun, and and then you've got North Carolina for basketball, so oh yeah, it's again it's it's pretty amazing. Well, how long did you do your your stint dealing with sports and and being in the news media? Nicole Pytel  17:41 Yeah, so I was a sports reporter for two years, and then my contract was up in the summer of 2008 when the the economy was not so great. Yeah, and I I didn't want to stay in my job not because I didn't love it. I just wasn't really making any money. You don't make any money in TV. That's the big secret. It looks so glamorous, and and you're broke. But it was so it was basically impossible to get another sports job at at that time, you know. And I got a really good opportunity at the station I was at. They were like, you know what? Like everybody in town knows you. They see you on the sidelines. They see you behind home plate. Like they see you at all the things. And so why don't you be the main news anchor? Because they were rebranding the station, and I said, you know what? Okay, cool. I'll do that. You know that that'll be something new and different. And you know it kind of hurt to leave sports, but it was a challenge. You know to be the main anchor and the producer. So it was it was my show to run. So I did that for two years as well. No pressure, no pressure at all. No, it's fine. Michael Hingson  18:51 Yeah, Nicole Pytel  18:51 pressure. Michael Hingson  18:53 So you did that for two years, and then, Nicole Pytel  18:56 and then I left, and I totally did something different. I left TV and I started my own content marketing agency. Just me, myself, and I, and my little my little built-in desk in my kitchen in my apartment. So couldn't be more different. Michael Hingson  19:12 Did you do now? Was that in Texas? It Nicole Pytel  19:15 was in Texas. It was you know it was it was you know time to leave TV, and it was just like, okay, well, what am I good at? Like, what can I do? And I said, well, shoot, I can write anything, you know. So I'll do content marketing, and and there's so many journalists that go into PR. That's kind of like the the thing they all do. And I was like, I don't want to do that. Like, I don't know. It's just like being on the journalism side, you know, all the PR people. It's like, oh, come on, guys, stop! So I went into content marketing, started my own agency, just just me, myself, and I. And you know, was it was scary, but it was fun. It was you know throwing yourself into the deep end of the pool and and seeing if you could swim. If Speaker 1  20:02 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  20:35 So now, tell me something about what content marketing Nicole Pytel  20:40 is. Yeah, so you know content marketing, and and I I've always been on on the B 2b side, the business to business. So and usually, and most of my career has been in in tech. So you know, selling very expensive things to people who are very skeptical of whether or not it works and don't want to make the wrong decision on you know a six figure platform or something like that, and it's really the content marketer's job to really kind of give them almost like a buffet of things that that they need to really figure out. Okay, what problem do I have? What solutions are there for this problem? Like, who are the different vendors? What what are the different ways to solve this problem? What makes all these vendors different? How do I know which vendor you know will actually give me ROI? Like, do they understand my business? Do they understand people like me, and then you know, getting them all the way through until they're ready for a sales conversation. And as you might imagine, people don't like to talk to salespeople. They're you know at this point probably probably 80% of the way through. You know they they probably are pretty set on on which vendor they're going to go with before they talk to sales, but you know there's all kinds of different marketing. But content's the one that really runs the whole gamut of everything. You know, you everything ties back to content because you've got to bring them to something. Like you know, ads have got to drive to something. The website's got to say something. You know, like PR has got to plug something. So, you know, content's kind of that that through line for the entire process of them making these, you know, huge expensive decisions. Michael Hingson  22:33 Well, still going into content marketing, since you were in TV, is a pretty major, pretty major switch all the way around. And what makes me curious is how did you discover you really knew and understood content marketing? And more important, even than I guess, would be since you loved TV so much, when did you decide that it was worth staying in TV than it was to switch careers? That had to be a pretty scary thing, or maybe it wasn't. You may be just used to doing that sort of thing. Nicole Pytel  23:05 Yeah, no. Leaving TV, there was a there was a day, you know, when I knew I was done with TV, and and I was kind of frustrated with it. You know, you're not making much money, and and at that time it was so tough. The economy was was still tough, even even a couple years after that, and and it was just was tough. And news is a totally different kettle of fish than sports. Sports is is fun, and the fun stories and the feature stories and news is just it can be depressing. It can you know, it like you know. If it bleeds, it leads. That's you know where we're at, and that just started to get to me. And there, there was one day where things were just really, really slow, and and I was just like, oh my god, we don't have a lead story, and time is a ticking, and 10 o'clock is coming, whether I'm ready or not, and it's not like you can get on TV and go. Well, hey, good evening. Nothing happened today. Shut off your TV and go to sleep. And that's a story. That's a story in and of itself. Nothing happened, and I was really struggling. Like, oh my God, what's the lead story? What's the lead story? Am I going to have to take something and just kind of you know make make chicken salad out of chicken you know what and try to pass this off as important, and then we heard over the scanner there had been this this fatal car accident and this teenage girl had died in a car accident you know and for a split second I thought, "Oh, thank God, I have a lead story. And then, in the next second, I went, "Oh my God! Like, how is that your reaction to this story? Like, this girl is gone; her family is destroyed forever. Like, how did your brain even get to oh my god?" Thank God, I have a lead story, and and it was then that I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. You know, I was one foot out the door, and then I was like, uh, I don't like this. And to this day, I don't remember the girl's name. I don't remember any of the details, but I still think about it because it was really this turning point of like, I just don't want to do this anymore. Like I want to go do something else. That you know, maybe if I had stayed in sports, it would have been totally different. But the news side is just-it's tough. It's tough to see all that bad stuff day after day after day and kind of capitalize on it. Yeah, Michael Hingson  25:34 I-I'm amazed at some of the reporters that that I watch and and just listen to how they report the news, and now there's always it seems in our country a lead story of some sort. But how they do it and how they're able to do it day after day without registering too much emotion is pretty amazing. And I and I hope that their characters just don't become so hardened that they don't feel sympathy, and I and I think they don't. The reporters that I tend to watch, I think, are very human oriented, but and and they they behave appropriately, but at the same time, I'm amazed that they're able to do what they do, and it's got to be so tough. Nicole Pytel  26:24 It is tough. It is tough because sadly, you're kind of seeing the worst of the worst. I mean, you know, that's that's the stuff that that makes the news. And and today, you know, I don't watch local news really at all anymore. But it seems like now it's just kind of the police blotter, and it's like when I hear about all these bad things, you know. It's just, you know, the the storytelling has has kind of fallen out of it quite a bit. Michael Hingson  26:49 I collect old radio shows as a hobby, and I'm very fascinated to listen to the all the old news broadcasts from the 20s, well, the 30s, 40s, and into the 50s mainly. And I've heard some interviews with people who did news back in those days, and and who are somewhat still well, they're still alive or they used to be, and they talk about how news broadcasting has changed over the years, and they don't they don't do the same kind of news that they they used to do where they would report on things. Now they've got different people sort of chattering back and forth, and and they're they sometimes make light of stories and they just do a lot of different things, but they're not reporting the news the way the old reporters used to do. Nicole Pytel  27:36 Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, back in the day, you had you know Walter Cronkite kind of ripping the paper off, you know, or you know they're sitting there smoking a cigarette, giving the news. I mean, you know, stuff like that, and you know, yeah, it's just it's totally different. I think it's become so sensationalized, and everybody's obsessed with being first. I think, I mean, you always want to be first, but I I think people are obsessed with being first, even if they don't always get it right. Yeah, and that's Michael Hingson  28:08 happened a lot. It Nicole Pytel  28:09 happens a lot, and and also it's like who can be the most sensational, who can make the biggest splash, and you know it just I don't know. It's it has it's changed so much. Yeah. Michael Hingson  28:25 Well, so now, but but again, well, not now. But then you went into contact mark content marketing. Do you feel that you knew that business as you were going into it, or or did you have a lot to learn? And how did you do it? Because for a while, it was just you doing everything? Nicole Pytel  28:41 Yeah, it was it was me doing literally everything. And did I know about content marketing? No, I didn't. I knew how to write, so I knew I could do copywriting. And I said, okay, well, I'll I'll figure out the marketing part. And it took a lot of courses. I learned about SEO. I learned about email marketing. I learned about inbound marketing. You know, I just took every course that I could and kind of just built the plane as I flew it. And you know, because yeah, when you start your own business and you're all by yourself, there's no there's no senior person to go ask. You're the person, and you've got to figure it out, and you know, I like to say the money train doesn't doesn't just magically show up every two weeks. You know, you've got to you've got to work and you've got to earn it. And so, when you've got your own business, you know, that's just it's a lot of pressure. And so, yeah, I just I just went and and learned as I went and learned a lot quickly. And you know, would would I tell everybody to go do that? No, but for me it was like, well, if I can do that, I can I can probably do anything. I mean, shoot, I kept a a roof over my head and food food on the table for for eight years with my. Business, so that's that's something that a lot of people can't say. Michael Hingson  30:03 Did you make any kind of mistake at the beginning, or as you were starting and running this business, that you're very grateful today that you made? Nicole Pytel  30:11 Oh, I I made plenty of mistakes. Oh my goodness! And of course, you're going to make mistakes. You're you're just learning. You're just drinking from the fire hose and just hanging onto the bowl, you know, and I think there was a there was a couple of mistakes I made. I think probably the biggest was not shutting off, you know. And I had come from news where at 10 o'clock the news started, at 1030 the show was over. You were done for the day. Nothing carried over to the next day. You came into work the next day. You started over, and it was really hard to have work that dragged on for days or weeks at a time. And you know, it was hard to shut off, especially when it's your own business. It's like, oh, let me just reply to this one email, or let me check this one thing, or let me go do this one thing over here. And and when I started my own business, you know, I was working, I was working out of the kitchen. So you know, you go to sit down and relax on the couch at night, and and your computer's you know four feet away in the kitchen. So oh, I'll I'll just go check this one thing, and I never was shutting off, and you burn out that way. You really, you really do. And I'm glad I learned that lesson. And I'm not saying I've never repeated that lesson because I've definitely, you know, it's it's a very acquired skill to be able to just turn your brain off and and go focus on something else. But I'm glad I made that mistake because it really showed me, like, you don't have to be on 24/7 even to run your own business, you know, like, and you have to stop. And so, what I've done ever since then, ever since I was able to afford, you know, a two-bedroom apartment or whatever, even my house now. I've always had an office so that you know I go, I do my work, and then at the end of the day, I shut off the computer and I leave that room, and I don't come back until the next day. Where it's like you know, like if you go to a traditional office, you get up at 5o'clock, you walk out, you're back at 9o'clock the next morning, like I've worked really hard to do that at home to really avoid that whole always on kind of mentality because you've just got to kind of stop, you know. Michael Hingson  32:34 Yeah, I my wife passed away in November of 2022, and she was more of a late riser, and I was more of a morning person, but we compromise pretty well. But since she has passed, I tend to get up pretty early because I can eat breakfast and then come in and spend time before anything else happens, going through emails and doing some things. But I don't have to rush doing it, and that helps. But then, then then the the other things happen in the course of the day. But I I know what you're saying, and I work pretty hard at shutting things down by around 5o'clock. Of course, I also have to do that because I have two creatures who say it's five here, not somewhere else, and we better get our food. Yeah. Yep. So they help, but I hear what you're saying, and it and it is a it is a discipline. Working at home and working for yourself is a is a discipline that a lot of people Nicole Pytel  33:33 oh yeah Michael Hingson  33:34 could learn and don't or just don't have the skills to do. But it is, I think, a very doable thing, and I enjoy it. And I usually have I usually have television as well. I have television or something on in the background, although I don't listen to much of it. It's just background noise, but it's there and it helps. Nicole Pytel  33:53 Yeah, yeah. There's something about silence. I've always got to have you know some music on or something. It's like the silence gets a little deafening when you're at home working, it's it's it's funny that way. Michael Hingson  34:03 I do some stuff on the weekends, and when I when I do catching up on letters and things like that on the weekends, I typically don't turn anything on. I just focus and get it done, and then I go off and read and do other things. So it works out. But I but I hear what you're saying, and I think it's an important lesson to learn that you've got to learn. You've got to find a way to recognize that that it is important to turn off. And if you don't, you're going to drive yourself crazy. Nicole Pytel  34:30 You will. And and you know now that we've got you know email on our phones and Slack on our phones and LinkedIn on our phones, it's really easy to sit on the couch at night after dinner and just let me check my email this one more time, or or let me reply to this Slack message, and you just gotta stop because you will burn out, and and then you know you're you're of no use to anybody, most of all yourself, you know. And I think that Michael Hingson  34:57 oh, go ahead. Nicole Pytel  34:58 I was just gonna say I think it. I think it's a lesson that a lot of people struggle with, you know, because everything is just this on-demand one tap of your phone. You can just be back at work 24 hours a day, and I think you have to learn that I don't have to be on 24-seven to be successful. Think that's the thing you've got to learn. Michael Hingson  35:20 Do you think you've experienced burnout along the way? Nicole Pytel  35:23 Oh yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You know, I, I, you know, one of my bad habits is, you know, I'll kind of like put myself last, and I've learned that, you know, oh, it's really easy to, you know, oh, I won't go for a run this morning because I've got you know this work thing that I've got to do, and you know you've got to kind of treat yourself as a non-negotiable as well. You know, not that you get to do the run every morning. There's some mornings when you really can't, but if you look at the run as you know something of that's you taking care of yourself, and something that that is pretty non-negotiable, and it needs to be part of the schedule. You're you're more likely to to stick with it and not push it off to the side. Because yeah, I'm guilty of that. You know, you you push things off to the side. You're eating at your desk. You're passing up on this, or oh, I'm not going to go out to dinner tonight because I'm going to sit here and catch up on stuff, and and you burn out, you know, and it's exhausting. Michael Hingson  36:28 Yeah, yeah, you gotta gotta learn to keep things in perspective, and you're right. Yeah, yourself is is an important part of of what you do, and you have to be able to take care of yourself along the way as well, Speaker 1  36:42 yeah. Michael Hingson  36:42 Well, you had your own company for almost 10 years, and then you decided to go back to work for someone else. What what caused that to happen? Nicole Pytel  36:50 Yeah, so it was a couple of things. You know, one was you know when you own your own business, and and Michael, you understand this. You're you're the everything. You're you're the you're the president. You're the head of marketing. You're the head of sales. You're the head of operations. You're doing the taxes. You're you're doing all the things, and you're not necessarily good at all the things, and you don't necessarily enjoy all the things. You know, and so there was kind of two reasons. So I wanted to really focus on what I was good at, which was the content marketing part. You know, I didn't want to have to fill out quarterly reports for the state or you know things like that. All the admin work that goes in into running your own business, and so I said, okay, I want to be able to do what I do best, and I want to be able to work with clients that are bigger than I can get myself. And so I was really, really lucky to land at an agency. I worked remotely, but the agency was was based in Silicon Valley, and you know our our biggest client was Google, and you know for clients it doesn't get any bigger than that so you know I got to just focus on the content marketing part and work with with companies and and people that I never would have been exposed to if I had stuck with my own business you know no matter what I was never going to break into Silicon Valley from from my apartment in Florida, so you know it was the right decision. It really was, and and in job interviews, people asked me, "Well, you're giving up being your own boss? And it's like I've got very specific reasons for doing that. It was just time, you know. Michael Hingson  38:35 Do you feel like in any way it was a step backwards going to work for somebody rather than being the boss? Nicole Pytel  38:42 No, I don't think so. You know, because I've that eight years that I had in my own business, I got I I've got that under my belt, and you know, no one can take that experience away. You know, it is it is what it is. I learned a lot of lessons. I learned a lot of lessons the hard way too, and it was a great springboard. But I like being able to focus on what I'm best at, and you know the stuff that I've been able to do since then. I wouldn't have had those opportunities if I had just kind of kept with my own business. So I didn't see it as a step back at all because I had very specific reasons for making the move. Michael Hingson  39:20 Yeah, and you know I respect that, and and went through the same sort of thing. I owned my own company for four years back in the mid 1980s because I wasn't able to find a job at the time. People just wouldn't hire blind people, so I started my own company, and then eventually decided to go back into the workforce. And my wife and I worked out a a plan for that, and I created a cover letter that actually impressed some people, and I got a job out of it. But by the same token, I wasn't at all regretful about having to stop doing what I was doing and go back to work for someone else, partly because some of those very pressures that. We're talking about went away, and partly because, as you said, it was time, and I knew it, so we did. Nicole Pytel  40:07 Yeah, yeah. You've got to you've got to go with your gut and stuff like that. You know, like if if your gut is telling you something, or if you're like, I think I'd be a little bit happier doing something else, or if I didn't have to do this part of it, you know, go for Michael Hingson  40:24 it. Well, so there were times that, as you describe it, you would go into a role with no map. You were the only and the first content marketing hire, and you did a lot of stuff with Google Cloud marketing and and so on. What's the difference? I guess the best way to put it. What's the difference between, well, yeah, what's the difference between confidence and just hiding fear? That's probably the good basic question. Nicole Pytel  40:51 Yeah, yeah, they're probably kind of on the same plane, but they project Michael Hingson  41:00 differently. Nicole Pytel  41:01 They project very differently. They they project very differently. So so yes, you know, I created my own business, and then two of the agencies I've worked at, I was the first you know full time content hire. Built the content marketing practice. It was like building a business within a business, and and all the things that go along with that, I just didn't have to do the taxes, and which is a good thing. Yeah, it's a great thing. And then at the same time, yeah, I was I was embedded with with Google Cloud's marketing organization, and and so I think confidence is you know you can do it. Like deep down, you're like I know my stuff, I can do the work, I can do this, and then of course there's the fear of, oh my god! Like Google, like I'm gonna have a Google email address. I'm gonna have you know a title at Google and a supervisor at Google. Like, oh my god! Like, and then of course you know the the fear comes in. The imposter syndrome kind of comes in. Like me, me, really? And I think it's kind of like jumping into a really cold pool. You're scared, but you just gotta do it and kind of not fake it till you make it, but just dive in and trust in the confidence side. You know, there's like it's like the devil and the angel on your shoulder. One is your confidence. That's the angel, and the devil is the fear. And just listen to that confident part, and eventually, I feel like the fear gets drowned out. Now, does the imposter system ever imposter syndrome ever totally go away? Of course not. Of course not. We all have days where you're like, why am I here? Why is anybody listening to me? Why does anybody think I'm smart? We all have those days, but you know, eventually, you know, if you've got that confidence in yourself, it will win out. Michael Hingson  42:52 Yeah, and and it is something that we all have to deal with. But I think we can. I think if we truly understand ourselves and we listen to our inner voice. We'll get the guidance and the confidence that we need. I think so many people tend not to be introspective and tend not to go back and listen to the lessons that they could learn from their own inner subconscious, their own inner voice. And the result of that is that they they end up being very clueless, but the fact of the matter is, there's a part of you that monitors every single solitary thing that you do, and it's ready to give you the information that you need if you'll but take the time to learn to listen to it. And most people just don't do that. But the fact is, we should take that time because we'll get better results than we would ever get any other way. Nicole Pytel  43:45 It's funny because we'll say things to ourselves that we would never say to somebody else. Like you'd never say it to a friend, but you say it to yourself. It's like, why do we do that? And you know, sometimes I think one of the most important questions I've ever asked myself is why not you? You know, you want to go be a sports journalist in Texas? Why not you? Why can't you do that? You want to own your own business? Why not you? People do that all the time. Why? Why can't you do it? And I think if you if you're really honest with yourself, and you say, "Well, why not you? And you force yourself to kind of have this conversation with yourself and give an answer. A lot of times, you can't think of Michael Hingson  44:33 one, and you create excuses. Nicole Pytel  44:37 You do, which Michael Hingson  44:38 really are are not helping, and they're not healthy, but you do it anyway. And I understand the concept of imposter syndrome, but you ultimately have control over that. Nicole Pytel  44:50 You do, and I think that's the thing. It's you know I think anxiety gets the best of us a lot of the time, and and you've got to be like, okay, well, what can I control? What is totally out of my control? I actually heard somebody say today, you know, when anxiety creeps in and you have a thought, "Oh my God, what if X Y Z happens? You say to yourself, "So what if it does? Like, so what? Like, can you control it? Can you fix it? And if not, then then you shouldn't just give it airtime in your brain, you know. We Michael Hingson  45:23 spend so much time worrying about everything over which we don't have control, and we don't really learn the about the things over which we truly have control and should focus our time on, which is which is such an issue because the reality is over 95% of the things that we worry about and what if about all the time are things over which we have no control. I hear a lot of people say I don't watch the news because I just get angry at all that. Well, I like to watch the news because I love information, but I can do that generally without getting angry. Now, sometimes I will, I will yell at somebody on the the TV because they say dumb things. There are people who have learned how to do that, but I also don't spend a lot of time at it, and I also know that I'm not going to hurt them, even if they hear me. So the Michael Hingson  46:16 the bottom line is that I I work at not doing that, but I still want to get the information as to what's going on, so I do. Nicole Pytel  46:24 Yeah, and that's you. I want to know, and what can I control my reaction to it? I'm not going to get angry unless somebody says something really, really stupid, and and then you know it comes out. But yeah, it's it. That's a great example. I want to know what's happening, and I'm going to control my reaction to it, and a lot of times that's all we can control is our reaction to things. Michael Hingson  46:45 But we don't, which is really and we don't. We don't, and we should. Nicole Pytel  46:49 Yep. Michael Hingson  46:50 Well, speaking of reactions, earlier this year you got laid off from your VP role. I'm I'm curious, what did that do to how you see your own professional identity and and and so on, or did you know it was coming, or anything like that? Nicole Pytel  47:05 There, there were some rumblings right before it happened that it was coming, and you know I'm one of sadly very very many people, you know, 1000s, 10s of 1000s, maybe even hundreds of 1000s of people in this position, and and it's it's tough because you're not your job, but when you do something 40 hours a week and and you get up every day and that's what you do, it becomes part of who you are. It's like that's what I do, and then when that's gone, it's just like, well, now like am I still am I still useful? Like, am I still smart? You know, and and all these things go go through your mind, and you learn a lot about yourself when that happens. You know, talking about hey, all I can control is how I react to it. You know, Lord knows. You know, when you get laid off, like there's a a million what ifs running through your brain, and and all you can do is just keep putting one foot in front of the other, and and controlling how you react to it. But it absolutely, you know, it definitely shakes your confidence, and you know, it's it's it's a very weird feeling, you know that first Monday when you don't go to work. It's like, oh my God, the rest of the world went back to work, and and I didn't, and it's very jarring. You know, especially when you're when you're as old a fossil as me and you've been working for so long, it's like now you're not. You know, I've been I've been very very lucky to take on you know some freelance work and stuff like that, and and you know it's given me an opportunity to really catch up on a lot of the things that I wanted to learn and try and do when I was working full time and didn't really have the time. So from that perspective, it's been really good. But it it it'll knock you down for a minute, and it's up to you to kind of pick yourself back up, and that's where you kind of learn a lot about yourself as to how how you react to that. Michael Hingson  49:08 Yeah, and you have to again. It's a matter of choice, and you have to decide what what you want to do. Well, so you got laid off. Did you sleep late that first Monday? Nicole Pytel  49:19 I didn't. You know what I did. You know what I did. I I knew I had to give myself something to do, so I got up early on that first Monday and I went and got the oil changed in my car. I was like, I'm gonna go out and be productive. You know, could I have laid in bed all day and just kind of wallowed in self. Yeah, that doesn't help. Yeah, but that's not helpful. So I was like, "I'm going to go get that oil change I've been putting off for like two months. And you got to go Michael Hingson  49:49 in earlier than you otherwise would have, and probably got it done sooner. Nicole Pytel  49:53 There you go. There you go. Sometimes it just works out. Michael Hingson  49:57 And you probably had two little fur creatures who. We're very glad to see you continuing to support their habits. Nicole Pytel  50:04 Yes, yes, they my little fur divas. Yes, they're kind of like you know now you know Minnie Minnie's worked with me her whole life. She just turned 14. I've had her since she was 11 months old, and and I've I've worked at home her whole life, and so she she comes to the office with me every single day with her little memory foam, and and and and she gets her decompression time too. You know, she knows at 5o'clock when I take her memory foam bed back into the bedroom. Like, all right, I'm done working for the day. I'm good. But you know, at first she was like, "Why aren't we working, mom? And then you know, we got some freelance work and got back in the office, and I could tell she was like, "Okay, we're getting back to normal. Because at first they were both like, "What are we doing? Aren't you supposed to be working? Like, what's happening? But as long as they've got all their treats and all their toys and and and you know all their things, they're good. Michael Hingson  50:58 Didn't you tell them that was time for them to go get a job? Nicole Pytel  51:01 Oh yeah, absolutely. Michael Hingson  51:03 And how'd that work for you? Absolutely. Nicole Pytel  51:04 No, it didn't work out. They were like, "We don't do that. Like, I don't think you understand, Mom. Yeah, this is not how this works. Yeah, Michael Hingson  51:11 yeah. Well, so one of the things I think that's interesting, we're and we're all facing it to one degree or another, is the whole concept of of AI, a lot of people are afraid that AI is coming for their jobs, and I can make some comments, and I will about that. But you've chosen to face that fear and confront it. So I guess the real question is, why do you think that was the right call, and what do you think about this whole business of AI? Nicole Pytel  51:39 AI is really something, and so so I I've seen both sides of it. As a content marketer, you know we were supposed to become extinct because AI could just write everything. And my point is, is like, can AI create content? Sure, but it doesn't know what to create, and that's where the human comes in. It like the human has to come up with the strategy, and you know I remember the first time trying out ChatGPT and having it write stuff, and it wasn't very good, and and you know obviously things have gotten much much better in in the past 334 years, but you know it just became obvious that that this is a thing, and I guess you know, as a benefit, so many of of my clients were AI companies in some way, shape, or form, and it's like this is happening, and you have got to learn how to deal with it. And at least in my job, it can it can make me better at my job because it can speed things up. It can kind of eliminate some redundancies, you know. And is it ever going to replace me? No, because I'm the human with the judgment, and I understand, you know, the business goals of of what we're trying to do and how we hit the revenue goals and who the audience is and what they care about and all of those things, but I think one of the the silver linings of of getting laid off was you know I've I've had a you know a chunk of time to really dive in and get my hands dirty with AI like the things that I was like, oh, if I could have it do this, this, and this, that'd be really cool. And then go in and build it and see, hey, can I actually build this and go into Claude Code and see if if I really can do that, you know? And and it's given me a chance to really do that and go, okay, well, when I when I get another job, this is how I'm going to use AI on day one. I'm going to create, you know, this list of things, and here's why. Here's the order I'm going to do them in, and here's where I'm going to use AI to make it better. But more importantly, here's kind of the framework for how humans and AI should work together in content marketing, because there's so many people out there that are like, "Hey, ChatGPT, go write my website for me, and then they wonder why it's not very good or or why it sounds the same as as their competitors. You know, there's studies out there that say you know buyers think that these companies all sound the same, and you know AI is a big reason for that. So if you can really figure out how humans and AI work together, I think that's that's the piece, you know. And and there at the beginning there were a lot of content marketing kind of purists out there that were like, I will never use this. I'm gonna write everything myself. I'm gonna do everything from scratch, and I was just like, "That's like saying, you know, when cars came out, like I'm not, I'm not riding a horse. I'm not getting a car. I'm taking my horse and buggy to work. You know, I mean, it's the same thing. Like things evolve, and and you know, take advantage of it. Michael Hingson  54:56 Well, the reality is that AI is here. And I think you're right. What we need to do is to learn how to use it. I heard a friend comment a couple months ago that was talking to his boss about AI, and his boss said, "I will never fire you and replace you with AI. I won't do that, he said. "I might fire you if you don't learn how to use AI. Nicole Pytel  55:26 Yes, and Michael Hingson  55:26 I think that's absolutely true. I I use AI when I write because it gives me ideas, but ultimately I have to still be the one to create them, and I am not convinced that we're going to see AI in anywhere in the near future, develop the true human spirit and learn how to do the things that we do, Nicole Pytel  55:48 right? Michael Hingson  55:50 And so I think it's important that we learn how to use AI, and we I get a lot of great ideas from it, and so I go into what I write, and that's great because it's got a lot more information and experience than I do. So I don't mind doing that, and I'll be glad to take the ideas. The first time I heard anybody talking about AI was in a Christmas party with relatives, and somebody was complaining because teachers were grousing about the fact that kids were just letting AI write their papers, Nicole Pytel  56:22 yeah. Michael Hingson  56:22 And I said, why not let AI write the papers? You're missing a golden opportunity, and the golden opportunity. And I've said this before on Unstoppable Mindset, but the golden opportunity is the teacher should let students, if they want to use AI to write their papers, let them use AI to write their papers. But then, after you collect the papers, take a period, call each student to the front of the class, and say, "Now defend your position. You're going to find out who really knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. Nicole Pytel  56:50 Yep. Michael Hingson  56:51 What a great opportunity! Nicole Pytel  56:53 That's one way to do it for sure. And my guess is most of them would have no idea. Yeah. Michael Hingson  57:00 How was your view of a special of a professional career change since you started years ago, or has it? Nicole Pytel  57:08 Yeah, many, many, many moons ago. Many Michael Hingson  57:11 moons. Nicole Pytel  57:12 You know, I think when when you first start out in your career, and tell me, Michael, if you agree with this, you know, you just want to get going. It's like I'm a grown up now. I get to do all these grown up things and all the things that I learned about in school. I'm gonna run off and do them, and I want to do as much as I can, as fast as I can, and and climb the ladder and do all the things. And then, you know, that's still important, obviously. But I think it's more about, you know, am I doing something that I take? I truly, truly take pride in something that I believe in. You know, like you know, I could never go work for a company and and do marketing if if I thought the product was boring. You know, I just couldn't. I I don't really care what title you give me, or you know how much money you want to pay me. It's like if it's going to be boring, I don't, I don't want to do it. So I think part of it is, you know, are are you getting satisfaction out of what you're doing? Michael Hingson  58:13 Also, we need to recognize and understand that sometimes life gets in the way, and you start out with a great plan. This is what I'm going to do, and something happens to change it. And the reality is, again, it's of course how you approach that change. But that change might very well be for the best. I know that's happened to me several times, and I have learned that life may happen, things may happen, but I'm gonna not. I don't. I didn't have control over the change necessarily happening. So it's a question more about how I decide to deal with it and what I'm going to do. And I think that's what's really so important to be able to do. And so I find that it's so important to let life do what life is going to do, and you evaluate which way you want to go, but truly evaluate it. Don't don't just react. Sit back and think. You may decide to keep on doing what you're doing, and you're given another opportunity. And of course, for me, the most dramatic example of that is after September 11th, people started calling and saying, "Gee, would you come and talk to us and tell us what we ought to know about September 11th and talk to us about leadership and so on. We saw your name in the media and we want to hear from you and we'll pay you. And of course, you'll pay me. That was a great start. But but what happened was that so many of those happened that my wife and I at the by the beginning of 2002 realized that this was an incredible opportunity. It would take work, but it was an incredible opportunity, and that in reality, as I tell people, selling life and philosophy is a whole lot more rewarding than being a computer hardware sales manager and selling computer hardware. And so I've been doing it ever since, and I've had so many wonderful advances. And I've I've met so many people, learned so many things, and I spend the time working on learning wherever I go and wherever I speak, and so I can't complain at all about what what caused my life to change. Nicole Pytel  1:00:15 Yeah, I mean everything happens for a reason. I really do believe that, and and you may not know what that reason is right away, but yeah, I mean, look at you. I I I can't even imagine having been there on September 11th. It was it was jaw dropping enough to to watch it on TV, and and I'm sure there was a lot that went through your mind and and went through your mind during and right after. And but now look at I mean all the people that that you've gotten to inspire and and educate and motivate and and people who have really learned something and you never would have had that platform. It's it's it's really something. Michael Hingson  1:00:56 Yeah, and and it's and and if you're given a choice between two things that both really sound great, you make a choice, and then you live with the choice you made. Again, don't don't what if the things over which you don't have control, Nicole Pytel  1:01:13 right? Exactly. Michael Hingson  1:01:15 Well, if someone is in a position today where they're listening and they're standing kind of in the same place you were when you decided to go leave television, so on, and they're certain that they should be going off and doing something different, but they're terrified to admit it. What would you say is the one thing that you should tell them? Nicole Pytel  1:01:36 I would say if your gut is telling you to do something, you need to listen to it, and I would say, ask yourself why not me? Why can't I go do this now? If you want to run off and be an

A bestselling computer book and a mayor's office may seem worlds apart, but Dan Gookin's path connects them through curiosity, clear communication, and public service. I talk with the DOS for Dummies author and Coeur d'Alene mayor about making technical writing useful, challenging industries that resist new ideas, and finding success by improving work others do poorly. Dan also shares why he entered local politics, how transparency and community engagement built public trust, and why responsible leadership often means asking the questions others overlook. We close by exploring political division, religious freedom, social media algorithms, and the need to reduce online anger without losing the internet's benefits. Highlights: 00:06:48 - Why leaving your comfort zone creates growth. 00:11:07 - How doing something better can become a business. 00:12:39 - Why writing for beginners changed computer publishing. 00:27:06 - How transparency concerns led Dan into politics. 00:37:30 - Why responsiveness helped Dan earn public trust. 00:54:49 - How social media fuels anger and division. About the Guest: Dan Gookin is the mayor-elect of Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, having won election in November 2025 after serving on the City Council since 2011. Known as a fiscal conservative, outspoken advocate for government transparency, and a committed budget hawk who asks tough questions, he is often described as “the lone voice of reason” on the council, consistently championing the public and the “little guy” against bureaucracy. Gookin views his public service as protecting individual rights. He prides himself on listening to all perspectives, welcoming alternative viewpoints, remaining open to new information, and never being a rubber-stamp vote. Professionally, Gookin is known as a writer and online trainer. He has been writing about technology since the early days of personal computing, combining his humor with a passion for gadgets to create informative and entertaining books. He authored the groundbreaking DOS For Dummies in 1991—the world's fastest-selling computer book at the time and the title that launched the iconic For Dummies series, now a publishing phenomenon. With more than 170 titles to his credit, over 12 million copies in print, and translations into more than 30 languages, his popular works include PCs and Laptops For Dummies, Android For Dummies, Word For Dummies, and C For Dummies. He maintains two helpful websites, wambooli.com and c-for-dummies.com. He creates online courses for LinkedIn Learning on diverse topics, and in 2020 published Running for Local Office For Dummies. Gookin graduated from the University of California, San Diego with a BA in Communications/Visual Arts and minors in cognitive psychology and theatrical design. He put his creative talents to work as artistic director of the Lake City Playhouse, where he designed sets, lighting, and directed many productions between 1997 and 2002. First and foremost, Dan considers himself a father who raised four boys in Idaho. Gookin resides in Coeur d'Alene with his wife, Brie, along with various children and pets. In his leisure time, he enjoys woodworking, playing the piano, riding his bike, cooking, gardening, and making lists of things he enjoys doing along with occasionally annoying those who think that they're important. Ways to connect with Dan**:** LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-gookin-46995713/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dangookin About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hello there, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. I am your host, Michael Hingston, and today we get to chat with Dan Gookin. Do you know who Dan Gookin is? Probably not, but you will by the time we're done. But I will tell you one thing about Dan. He was elected mayor of Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, in November of 2025. I think Dan, you're the first political person as such that we have had on, which is kind of cool. I'm really honored to to have you here, and and we can spend the the whole time picking on on other politicians, but there's no need to do that. I mean, what good does it do? It's a waste of time. But I want to welcome you to Unstoppable Mindset, and Dan, thanks very much for being here. Dan Gookin  01:44 Thank you, Michael. Thank you for having me on. Michael Hingson  01:46 Well, this will, I think, really be a lot of fun. I'm sorry that you guys aren't getting a lot of snow up there. My brother-in-law has been keeping me posted on the lack of snow, so today here we're expecting a temperature at about 70 degrees. Last week it got up to 39. So I don't know. There's something going on with the climate. Dan Gookin  02:10 Something. Michael Hingson  02:11 Yeah, whatever it is. Speaker 1  02:13 Well, there was a name for that. Michael Hingson  02:15 Yeah, yeah. If if there were enough people, would only believe it. But that's another story. You are right. Well, thanks very much for being here. Why don't we start? Tell me about the early Dan growing up and all that. Speaker 1  02:31 So I grew up in San Diego, California. Good place. I still say San Michael Hingson  02:35 Diego has the best weather in the country. Speaker 1  02:38 They do. It's changed a little bit as everything has, but I escaped from there back in 1991. Went up to Washington State because I was doing some work with Microsoft, and then decided that that was Seattle was another big city. So we kept looking east and finally landed in Idaho in Coeur d'Alene because it's pretty. Michael Hingson  03:01 It's a nice area. So you you did your schooling and all that down in San Diego. Speaker 1  03:06 Yeah, I graduated from the University of California, San Diego with a degree in communication visual arts. That was in 1983. Michael Hingson  03:13 Cool, wow. I've spent many a a day down in San Diego. I lived in Vista for six years, so I'm familiar with the area. Yeah, I liked Vista. Vista was a nice place to be. You Speaker 1  03:24 did a radio show out of Vista. Did you for a while? Yeah, computer call-in show. So that was way back. Michael Hingson  03:32 What did you discuss, or just anything dealing with computers? I Speaker 1  03:36 was editing a magazine, a local computer magazine at the time, and we purchased an hour, and so I would drive from my home in Tierra Santa all the way up to Vista to be in this little tiny radio station, where we would do call-ins. And sometimes people would call in, and I would help them solve their computer problems. And sometimes I had to talk to myself for Michael Hingson  03:57 an hour. And and and did you get answers when you talk to yourself. Speaker 1  04:02 No, but I got really hoarse. Ah, okay. Michael Hingson  04:04 Well, you know, just just checking. Well, that's cool. Well, I guess we could tell everyone that, among other things, Dan is also the author of a number of books, including DOS for Dummies. I still like DOS. Thank you. I I like DOS. I've just always enjoyed it. Although, I have to admit, Windows has progressed a whole lot more. But I always liked DOS. Speaker 1  04:27 Yes, it was good, and and it was its complexity or its a rudeness, I shall say. Yeah, that's a good. Sold the book because you had to type. You had to know the commands in Windows. You can kind of look and point and do all this stuff, but in DOS, you had to know the commands and type the commands, and people wouldn't-they couldn't remember. There were all these options, and so we sold a lot of books doing that. It's still, like I said, I I like it too. I like the command line because it's faster if you know what you have to type. Yeah, it takes less time to type. Than it does to look around, point and shoot with the mouse. Michael Hingson  05:04 Yeah, there are a number of blind people on some list serves that I am part of that every so often something regarding DOS comes up, which is I think kind of cool. Speaker 1  05:15 Yep, hasn't gone away. It's it's still lurking in there somewhere. Michael Hingson  05:19 It is still a kind of the basic underpinning foundation of a lot of Windows, isn't it? Speaker 1  05:25 Well, Windows actually does run on top of it still. If you if you when you start a program in Windows, you're actually issuing a text command. So inside there is a long text command that is issued that gets everything running. It's just that you're configuring that from a graphical perspective, Michael Hingson  05:44 right? Yeah, but but it is still running. DOS essentially runs under Windows, which is which is something that is is relevant. So I guess we could blame that on Bill Gates, Speaker 1  05:57 or credit him. I don't know. Michael Hingson  05:58 Or yeah, yeah, one of the other. Well, so you you graduated, you moved to Seattle. As you said, it is a big city, although you know it's kind of hard to fight Pike's fish market. Speaker 1  06:11 Well, there's there's the fun and charming parts of of Seattle that I really enjoyed. So I mean, I can't say that you know it was a horrible city. The thing I admired about Seattle the most was that Seattle would occasionally not take itself seriously, and I liked that it had a sense of humor and that people there were generally good natured. San Diego was a little bit more uptight, you know, fair weather fans, that kind of stuff, where Seattle was more of a community, and I admired that greatly. Michael Hingson  06:43 And there used to be a lot of rain up there. Speaker 1  06:45 Not as much as people say. That's kind of their reputation. The Pacific Northwest we do have. So I moved from Southern California where you have 360 days of sun a year to Pacific Northwest where you have 180, so it was kind of a shock from that point of view. It's mostly like today; it's overcast. It's just there's no sun, so that's the big difference. Michael Hingson  07:10 And then you moved up to Idaho, and and how many days of sun or not sun are there a year? Speaker 1  07:16 Oh, still about 180. 180. Uh huh. But it's you know so you get used to it after a while, and when the sun comes out, you're all happy, and it's like, look, the sun's out, everything's pretty. Michael Hingson  07:27 Yeah, fair. Yeah. So when you were in San Diego and so on, what did you want to do or be when you grew up? Speaker 1  07:36 So originally, I wanted to be a doctor, and then I had the misfortune of being in a hospital, and I said I don't ever want to be back here, and changed my mind and figured I would be a writer. So for years I started writing and submitting things to magazines, trying to work on books and stuff. I mean I wrote a few books, and they say that you have to get about a million words of junk out before you actually are a good writer. So I I worked on that for a long time, and got to the point where I I actually had a reputation with some of the editors in the magazines who would write me back personal notes instead of the generic you know dismissal, and so that was working really well. But then what happened in 1984 was I wrote something for the local computer flyer, and they liked that, and it got published, and that was what really started the career for tech because tech wanted people who knew how to write, so that was good timing. Michael Hingson  08:35 Yeah, so many technical manuals are just so boring. I really wish people would learn how to write more interesting books. Of course, I say that about textbooks as well. I am of the opinion that having a master's degree in physics and having read many a physics book, the and there are so few of them. The best books are the ones where the authors have put some actual personal stories in to draw people in with human interest parts of the science, and I wish more people would do that. Speaker 1  09:03 And that was my point too. It was like these books are dull and boring. And the problem I had because I was writing computer books at the time, I had a computer book literary agent. There is such a thing, and it's it's backwards in that industry though, because the publisher says what they want a book on, and then they have you write the book on the topic, and so I was doing that for many years. But I did not like the fact that they would edit my books to make them dry, and the editors would actually complain to me and say, "There's too much personality in here. You can't have this. It was like it was like they thought that was a built-in feature of the book, and my protest was, "Well, no. Let's make them interesting. Let's use real life examples. Let's have some personality in there. Let's have some interaction with the with the reader. And they didn't like that until DOS for Dummies came around, and the publisher was willing to change the paradigm. Michael Hingson  09:55 Jeez, yeah, it's so unfortunate. They they think they know. Everything there is to know, and the reality is they don't. Speaker 1  10:04 That's the way it is with just about any industry. You know that I think the corporate mentality is kind of to resist innovation, even in the most innovative industries, until something crazy comes along. And I think that's why in Silicon Valley you had all these startups. You know, if you look, if you trace the lineage of a lot of the big companies, they started at other big companies that were unwilling to do the crazy ideas these guys had, and so they went off. I mean, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak left Hewlett Packard and started up Apple Computer, and I'm pretty sure there's probably been some engineers from Apple Computer who've left and started up their own company and becoming Michael Hingson  10:43 well. And Bill Gates is essentially the same way. It's it's he started out doing something, but he attracted people's attention by some of the other things that he did. Speaker 1  10:53 Yep. Michael Hingson  10:54 And that was was very relevant. But I I hear what you're saying. It makes perfect sense because people just don't like to be innovative and don't like change, and and that's unfortunate that we have so many people that just, as much as they talk about the fact that change is everywhere, they don't like it. Speaker 1  11:10 No, it's well, I think yeah, we we get in our comfort zone, and you don't grow out in the comfort zone. So I like to challenge myself and do interesting things like become mayor, and you know you leave your comfort zone. And what what can I do here, or how can I do this better? Michael Hingson  11:26 Yeah, well, and that makes makes perfect sense. Well, what got you started writing about technology? Just because you were writing that that one article there, or those articles that got interest on the part of a publisher, or what? Speaker 1  11:41 What got me started was that I got paid. Ah, Michael Hingson  11:44 good point. Speaker 1  11:45 You know, they they paid me, and then you know, as as someone who was you know using a computer at the time, and they were called microcomputers, and they were really primitive compared to what we have today. Oh yeah, I I used it to write. So, and the the problem with that was that the the documents, the manuals that we talk about, were so dry and boring, and eventually, all of a sudden, it would dawn on me: it's like, well, this is what it's trying to say. So why don't they just come out and say it this way, or why don't they use an analogy and try to explain it in that manner instead of coming at it from this hardcore technical? And that was what really turned off a lot of people, so it motivated me to want to do it better, and that's kind of what I tell the kids, like my kids. I say you should start up a business. That's really the best way to get successful is start up your own business and become famous like that. And they're well, what business should I start up? I said that the easiest way is to find something that you like, something that's being done poorly, and just do it better. Yeah, and that's really a lot of the the creative, insanely genius stuff that's happened throughout the world is just someone who does something routine but does it better. Michael Hingson  12:52 And that's really the operative part about it, and and the real key. I think you're you're absolutely right. Find something that people aren't doing well, and by the time you get creative enough to figure that out, you're well on your way. Speaker 1  13:05 Yep. So that's that's what I did. Michael Hingson  13:08 Yeah. And so you started going off and and writing a variety of things. What what actually got you to write Dos for Dummies? What specifically? That's first of all, I love the the title of all the Four Dummies books. I think it makes sense. But what got you started in writing DOS for Dummies directly? Speaker 1  13:27 Well, I I knew that there was an appetite out there for beginner computer books, but the publishing industry would not publish beginning computer books because they said beginners don't buy computer books. And I explained to them, well, your problem is you don't write beginner computer books. You write something and you call it, you know, the easy guide to whatever, but the content of it is not written for a beginner. Maybe the first chapter is very condescending and patronizing, and then the rest of it is just technical garbage. So I said you have to keep that tone throughout the entire text. You have to identify who it is you're writing to, as who's a smart person who may just not get it, and explain it to them, and just keep going. And that was the problem. So I I did originally called it the Idiots Guide for DOS, which was based after the Idiots Guide to Volkswagen Repair. My dad had a copy of that, and I thought, well, what a brilliant idea. Michael Hingson  14:20 Yeah. Speaker 1  14:21 And so the publisher saw me speak at a conference, and where I was bemoaning the fact that the books were so boring, and they kept editing out my personality. And then went to to him, and and he's like, "This is great. Your outline that you have for this book is perfect. Except we want to call it DOS for Dummies. I thought, like a lot of other people, that was condescending and patronizing, but that it's an alliteration, so that's what they go with. And then he said to make it a reference. Don't make it a tutorial because, and this is brilliant, these people don't want to learn anything; they just want to do their job. Yeah, that makes sense. So that was and that was it, and we put a lot of humor in it. You know, people would tell me that they'd read the book on the subway, and you know, you'd see someone laughing reading a computer book. That's weird, but there would just be enough humor, and I'd use Mad Magazine as my inspiration. So it was kind of like us versus the nerds, and and that was what really founded the whole thing, and I tell you what, it caught on. I did not think it would. There was no way we were planning on writing a book that would sell, you know, 8 million copies. We were just thinking, well, this is going to be fun. Let's just do this, get it out of our system, and then go back to writing boring books. Michael Hingson  15:36 Made the publisher very happy. Speaker 1  15:39 Oh yeah, they were printing Gold bricks, yeah. Michael Hingson  15:43 That, of course, was the real key. Well, that started a brand, didn't it? Speaker 1  15:47 Oh yeah, they did. There was no intention to do that, but then they they followed that up with Max for Dummies and a bunch of other titles that were just very popular at the time. AOL for Dummies, you know, Windows for Dummies eventually came out, and that was the King for Dummies book. But yeah, they have and they have it on all topics. I've even so as someone who is you know starting in government, I got Robert's Rules for Dummies, which you know you've been to a meeting, you know they follow Robert's Rules, which is very dry and boring, but it's it's important. And Robert's Rules for Dummies is a good example of a For Dummies book because it explains everything carefully. Lots of humor in there, and so there's a lot of them. Wine for Dummies was another one that I really liked. I thought they did a good job. Golf for Dummies. There's a there's on every topic. There's a For Dummies book. Michael Hingson  16:37 How many of them did you write? Speaker 1  16:40 Only wrote the ones with my names on them, but probably about 40 separate titles. So over the years, most of them have been rewrites. So technology changes. So there have been 16 editions of Word for Dummies, and 13 editions of PCs for Dummies. There were four editions of DOS for Dummies. So you're you're always writing new editions, so all totaled 180 separate titles. But individual titles, without not counting multiple editions, right? About 60. Michael Hingson  17:09 Wow. Speaker 1  17:10 Yeah. Yeah, Michael Hingson  17:10 and I can appreciate that that books like Word for Dummies or even iPhones for Dummies has to change over time. Speaker 1  17:19 Yeah. Well, some of them. I mean, I've been doing a kind of a review on on YouTube. I've been doing short videos highlighting some of the goofy images that I put in the books over the years. And way back about 20 years ago, I think I was updating these titles once a year. They would say, "We need a new version of this. We need a new version of this. And at the time, technology was just. I mean, they were cranking out new stuff all the time. Michael Hingson  17:44 So, who's written AI for Dummies? Speaker 1  17:47 I don't know, but that is a title, so I wouldn't be Michael Hingson  17:50 surprised. Speaker 1  17:51 It should write itself, though. You think about Michael Hingson  17:53 it. Yeah, you you know, they they really should do that. It should write itself. Speaker 1  17:56 Someone told me once that they they they wanted to do a manual in my style, so they directed AI to write something in the style of Dan Gukan, and apparently AI can do that. So, am I going to get paid? I don't know. Michael Hingson  18:10 Well, that's another story, of course. Yeah, but still, it it is a it's a it's a great franchise. It's a great brand all the way around, and I know different people have written different different kinds of books like that, but still, the the fact is we need that in the world, and and I agree with you, especially that it's good to put humor and personality into it. And I really wish more people would do that. I really wish that would go into the the textbook world, but it hasn't yet. Speaker 1  18:37 No, that's that, and that's a different planet. I tried to break into that world, and that academia is is it's different. It is weird. Michael Hingson  18:44 Yeah, there are just not that many people who can get away with it like Richard Feynman did with some of the things that he did in physics, and even there, his his books were a little boring at times. But still, Speaker 1  18:56 he was awesome. His of course, his his autobiography is a lot of fun. Michael Hingson  19:00 Yeah, surely you're joking, mr. Fineman. Speaker 1  19:03 Exactly. Michael Hingson  19:04 Adventures of yeah, it is. I I keep it around. I've got an audio copy of it, and every so often I will go back and read parts of it. It's a it's a great book. Speaker 1  19:14 He's kind of an inspiration to me, especially in the area of government. And one of the parts of his book where he was on the panel that was reviewing textbooks for, I think, the state of California, and he noticed that one of the books was blank; it was empty, and he was the only one on the panel who did it. And I kind of echo that often in government because I'm occasionally the only person who actually reads some of the material they provide. Yeah, and and those kind of moments are classic. I love those. You know, when you can say, "Well, as everyone notices, you know, page 14 is blank, and they all madly flip to page 14, like, "Oh my gosh, how did you find this? Well, I, I did my job. I read the thing. Michael Hingson  19:54 I had a roommate in college, and we at that time we were using the Berkeley Physics series. I don't know. Whether that even still exists anymore, but different professors from Berkeley wrote various books, and the guy who wrote the book on waves, I had a roommate who was reading that book, and he searched vigorously to try to find a single misspelling of a word in the whole book. Wow! He finally found one. He said there really was one in the book. Kind of makes you wonder if that was deliberate, but but he actually found one. But it took him most of the quarter we had the book to find it. But but he did. Speaker 1  20:33 Excellent. Yeah, I got to say that's that's an art form. I used to work in a publishing house, and we would pore over books looking for spelling errors and mistakes and punctuation and all this stuff and of course you don't find them until the book's actually printed. Michael Hingson  20:46 Of course not. Yeah, yeah. Now it's it should be easier, but it's not, and they still don't come out until the book is already published and it's out there, and then you find out what isn't right. Speaker 1  20:58 Right. Michael Hingson  21:00 I suppose that gives the publisher an excuse to republish the book and make more money. Speaker 1  21:05 Well, yeah, it depends. It's if it is selling. If it doesn't sell, then obviously the the mistake's going to linger out there. Of course, with digital copies, they can update it right away, but not with a print book. Michael Hingson  21:17 Yeah, nowadays there's so many print books that are done pretty much on demand, so that if you want a copy, unless it's just something where they're selling literally millions a month, the book is available on demand. Although there's a little bit of a lag time to get it, my book Thunderdog, which is the story of Roselle and me in the World Trade Center, is is still selling pretty well, but it is more printed on demand by Thomas Nelson than now Harper Collins. Speaker 1  21:46 Yeah, Michael Hingson  21:47 and I understand that as long as it's available, I'm not going to complain. Speaker 1  21:51 And they and they they prefer to sell it that way as opposed to printing out 5000 copies they have to store somewhere. So Michael Hingson  21:56 right, yeah, they don't have to pay for storage and they just print it, and so it takes an extra week to get somewhere. That's fine. We can cope with that as long as it's available, and then that's all that really matters. Speaker 1  22:08 Yeah. Michael Hingson  22:09 But you've written a lot of books. How come so many? Because they're not all for dummies. Ah, okay. Speaker 1  22:16 Well, it just you know that was my profession, and that's what I did. And so, and I had a good agent who would find me a lot of work, so yeah, they would come up and they would want me to write a book on this or that, and a lot of it was because at the time in that industry I had a name and a reputation. I'm also very fast, so and that that kind of surprises people. In fact, there's some someone who accuses me of having a ghostwriter, which I do not. It's just I've been doing it so long, and you know, when I started, my agent said that he said the more you do this, the faster you'll get, the better you'll get. So, whereas in the original book, the first book I wrote took about six months to to write. I've written books in less than a month. It really depends. It depends on the topic, how well I know the topic, but also I do a lot of organizing with an outline, and so I will will work with an outline almost until it's down to the paragraph level, and then that makes it really easy to write the book, especially a technology book where there's a lot of cross references, and this sequence, you know, assuming someone's reading it front to back is really important, so you got to make sure that you touch upon things and do it in the right order. And then that's so yeah. I just got really good at it, which annoyed a lot of my fellow authors because as I was writing and I would get faster and faster, the contracts would start demanding the books in a more expedient manner, so other authors would complain to me and say, "You know, I have to write this book, and they're only giving me three months to do it. They're blaming me because I can do it in three months, and they figure everyone can do it in three months. So that was fun. Michael Hingson  23:54 Have you had books that someone asked you to write where you really didn't know much of anything about the subject, and you had to spend more time researching it, or you just spend time researching it, but you still did that very quickly. Speaker 1  24:06 Yeah, when I first started, that was pretty much the case. In fact, I talked with a guy who he had written the like the best-selling DBase three book. So DBase was a database way back in DOS, and it was the most popular database program, and he wrote the number one best-selling DBase three book that everyone who used that that program would buy, and he told me that he knew nothing about it when he signed the contract. So the the process of writing the book involved this intense deep dive into finding out what it is the program does, and then working on that. Of course, in those days, the books, the software came with a manual, so it was possible to go through the manual and see what the thing was capable of, and maybe get a few hints about that. But the books were not just a rephrase. The manual; they were a little bit better, the project oriented, whatever. So there was one one book that I did on a program called Super Card for the Macintosh, and it was the it was the there was no documentation, and I could call up the developer and I could ask him. So that was that was a tool I could use if I had access to the developer. I could call them up and I could say, "Okay, so I'm I'm doing this. What can you tell me that's like a secret or that is not obvious? And they love to share that stuff. Sure, I just write it all down, and then that that'll make the book better. If you could get through the the gatekeepers and get into where the nerds were, then you could get a lot of good information, and they were happy to share it. I did a few books on OS two that were like that, where I finally was able to escape into the lab and ask them. And the the guy they were so friendly, and they're like, "Oh, you got to tell him this, this, this, this. You know, we we couldn't put this in the manual. You have to tell him this, and so you write a great book. But of course, OS two, no one used it, so no one bought the book. Michael Hingson  26:05 Yeah, yeah, OS two was not one of those things that everybody loved. If Speaker 2  26:13 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the unstoppable mindset community. Michael Hingson  26:46 I remember when I was a student at UC Irvine. I wasn't an information computer science major. I was physics major, but several people took ICS one, two, and three, which was a three quarter course, or well, it was a year course, and the the book they used was Introduction to Computer Programming by Ken Ingram. And what was fun about that was that on the first day of class, the professor would come in and he'd say, "Okay, I want you to read chapter one of information of introduction to computer programming by Ken Ingram. It's the textbook we're going to use. I want you to read that before our next class. And of course, most everyone had not touched the book prior to that. And what he didn't say was that that first chapter took up half the book. Speaker 1  27:40 I like it. Michael Hingson  27:43 Yeah, I know. Wasn't that? And I, I, I heard about it. I, I never did get the book, and I didn't get it transcribed into Braille. But I thought that was cute. Chapter one was half the book. Speaker 1  27:53 No one would have suspected chapter one's an easy chapter. It's four pages. Right, supposed to be right. I think it was like Michael Hingson  28:00 180 pages. It was amazing. Michael Hingson  28:03 I'm not sure whether Ingram had a sense of humor or what, but anyway, there you go. But yeah, that that was kind of kind of amazing. So you you wrote all these books and you continue to do that, but somewhere along the line, you got interested in doing things in politics. What was that all about? Speaker 1  28:25 Well, that was frustrating. Not Michael Hingson  28:28 bad, Speaker 1  28:29 because I. So I think a lot of people are kind of interested. They follow politics. If I call up my mom in San Diego, she has to complain to me about you know the mayor of San Diego and what the city council is doing and and it's it's common it's just I think I think the most most people who are active in in their community know a little bit about politics or whatever and in my case I had just moved from the county here near Courtland and then I'd moved into the city, and I had heard that there was someone was buying up properties in my neighborhood, and I thought that was curious, and I wanted to see if this was something that you know are they going to tear down houses? What are they going to do? So I started researching using the the county website to see who was own who owned these properties, and it was a place called the Lake City Development Corporation, and I thought, well, I need to find out what that is, and it turned out that was an urban renewal agency that was formed by the city of Cortland, and I started reading the statutes and I started reading their minutes and finding out what it is they do, and while on the surface it sounded really fun, there were a lot of curious things that I didn't like. A lot of non-transparent things, a lot of things where you know they're spending public money on what I thought were frivolous things, and so I started asking questions. I started coming to meetings, and they're missing. Was that they pushed back, and so I just something triggered me, and I had a red flag, and I just started going after it. We started, we formed a group of people who were all interested in this, and we would meet regularly and go over what was going on with the government. We'd find issues regarding transparency and spending, and lots of interesting stuff. Never really anything nefarious. Never anything that would. But just a lot of stuff that, as we let the public know about what was going on, they would become outraged and they would say, "Wait a second! They're spending millions of dollars on this, and you know, with property taxes so high, and what is this, and why is it affecting me? And and so I went to the city council meetings here in Portland, and I was frustrated because no one else seemed to get it. And I would look at them, and they would have some issue that would come up, and everyone on the council-there were six members on the council-they would all vote in unison, and no one had asked a question. And I would say, "Well, wait a second, why aren't they asking a question about this, or why aren't they concerned about this, or what about the side effects of this? And so I started writing articles for the paper. I eventually did videos and to speak to various groups and such because I was like, we got to hold government accountable. So I ran for office in ran for the city council in 2007, and I lost. And then I ran in 2009, and I lost, but only by like 29 votes. And then I was done at that point. I really didn't want to do it again because running for office is a pain. Michael Hingson  31:33 Yeah. And Speaker 1  31:34 then they had this huge thing where all of a sudden they were going to redo a park without a public vote, and I wanted a public vote. Lots of people wanted to vote on it, but no, they were going to do it, and they didn't care what the public thought. So they made me run. They made me run a third time, and I won. And I've been on the city council ever since. And then, of course, well, since last November when I got kicked up to the mayor seat, which is where I'm sitting Right now, strange journey. Michael Hingson  32:04 Well, yeah, but on the other hand, there is something to be said for transparency, and there's somebody something to be said for somebody who really wants to look out for what what people want and what people are doing. I I got involved. Well, I've not run for public office, but I've been very much involved in political kinds of things because I've been involved in the blindness world since early 1970s, and the National Federation of the Blind has had for well now, gosh, more than 50 years or around 50 years, what used to be called the March on Washington. Now it's called the Washington Seminar, which is a an event that takes place every year, where several 100 blind people descend on Washington and go off and visit legislators. And the idea is to really get them to understand what the needs of blind people are and try to get them to vote on issues that directly relate to issues concerning us, and sometimes they do. Although it's gotten a lot harder to get things passed, especially in the last eight or nine years. But still, that it it has to be done. But I remember, among other things, I was living in Massachusetts when I first started going, and among other things, we we went and saw the Speaker of the House, who was Tip O'Neill at the time, which was kind of fun. And what an interesting, what a charismatic guy! Didn't matter what party he was with; it was a charismatic guy. And we also visited people like Senator at the time Paul Songis, and what was interesting about him was we we talked about our issues, and it was the end of the day, and then suddenly he said, you know, I'm not going anywhere for the next few minutes. Do you guys have time? And we ended up just talking for about an hour and a half about his view of of and our views of what Massachusetts needed to do, not only for blind people but just in general, it was just fascinating. There weren't very many politicians who would do that. Speaker 1  34:08 That's awesome. Yeah, I liked him. I liked Tungus a lot. Michael Hingson  34:12 Yeah, I wish he'd been able to run for president, but he got cancer, and that's that's unfortunate. Yeah, but because I think that he's one of those people who would do what really needed to be done and do it the right way. Speaker 1  34:26 In other words, the people who never win. Yeah, that's unfortunately Michael Hingson  34:31 really the case, isn't it? Speaker 2  34:33 Yeah, Speaker 1  34:33 yeah. Michael Hingson  34:34 But but you got to do that. Speaker 1  34:36 Yeah. Michael Hingson  34:38 So you you know, but you you hopefully you'll make a big difference, and maybe you'll be able to get people to believe in climate change. Oh, did I say that Speaker 1  34:48 this year? Nah, Michael Hingson  34:53 not unless you predict snow when it actually comes. Speaker 1  34:56 That and that and that's the key. Yeah, Michael Hingson  34:59 yeah. No, I understand, but it but it is fascinating. I you know I I enjoy the concept of politics. I enjoy people who really have a vested interest in making government go well, but it is so unfortunate that we don't see that much of it, which is just too bad. Speaker 1  35:18 There are a lot of good dedicated people out there. I think so. Of course, the the problem is is you know, like they say, politics is sports for the uncoordinated, and it's drama for the ugly. But the the thing is, the people who really do a good job, who are out there doing what you want them to do, they don't get the headlines. It's the noisemakers. It's the extremists. It's the people who are going to have some obnoxious opinion because that that gets everyone's attention. You know, the the guy out there who's doing the job, who's putting in the time, representing the citizens, and making his community a better place. You know, you're never going to read that guy in the paper, unfortunately. Michael Hingson  35:59 Yeah, and that's also part of the problem: is that the media looks for all the drama rather than really looking to to represent the the average citizen and what they truly want and need. Speaker 1  36:10 So those don't the actual the things don't make headlines. In fact, it was a it was really funny. There was a guy who was elected to the state house from this county, and one of his campaign platforms, he was going to repeal all the useless laws, all the things that are still on the books. That you know, just we don't need those laws anymore. They're old. They're outdated, and he did that for about a week, and it doesn't make headlines. So here he is, you know, doing this, doing the job that you think they they would want to do and making government more effective, no one cared. I remember there was one year where we actually we cut property taxes here in the city, and I thought, wow, everyone's going to come up and say thank you. No, no one did. So it's like, what's the motivation? If you go, they say, I want you to be I want you to be my mayor and I want you to work to cut that budget and so you cut the budget and then no one says thank you. Michael Hingson  37:08 We got Tom Steyer here in California who wants to become governor and he's talking about all these things that he's going to do. He's going to get electric utility rates lowered by a significant amount. He's going to encourage and bring competition to the electric grid industry, and he talks about lowering housing costs by building a million homes and doing so many things. And every time I hear his campaign commercials, the thing that I keep asking myself is, haven't we learned anything? And no offense to Donald Trump, but Donald Trump made a lot of promises that we're not seeing. Steyer is making a lot of promises that he has yet to say how he's going to pull any of them off. Speaker 1  37:56 Oh yeah, and that's and that's the thing is you got to. There's so much. There's only so much you can do. But you can you when you campaign, they can say anything. Of course, I know they might as well just say free ice cream and ponies for everyone. Michael Hingson  38:07 Yeah, and and that's almost essentially what's happening. And I'm not saying that he'd be a bad governor. I I haven't researched him enough, but the commercials just don't do anything to make me thrilled because he's not saying how he's going to do any of it, and and that's what I really want to know. Speaker 1  38:25 Yeah, I didn't when I when I ran this campaign, I didn't really promise anything that was sexy at all. I said, you know, I'm going to work on a policy manual. I'm going to increase the amount of information and transparency, and it was like nothing that you want to put on a bumper sticker, but I still won. I mean, there were people who were in the race who were promising this and that, and they were going to do this and all this stuff, and somehow I eked it out. Michael Hingson  38:51 Why do you think you won? Speaker 1  38:52 Name recognition, Michael Hingson  38:54 okay, Speaker 1  38:55 and that's and that's pretty much that's a lot of what politics is is is just the the name recognition. You can win on that. I also do have a reputation. I mean, being on council for 14 years and being often called the lone voice of reason, like I said earlier, I'm the one who asked that obvious question. Yeah, and people are in the audience are going, "Well, thank you. Someone's finally asking what what they wanted to ask, and so there was there was that, and and I also, you know, I I do return my emails. I answer the phone calls. I make sure that I'm I'm available. So you know, and I think that that reputation kind of spread itself around that that I would be responsive. It didn't mean that I actually did anything because the you know the powers are really limited. So if someone wanted you know they want to put in a stop sign somewhere, I'll go visit them, and we'll look at the thing, and we'll look at the traffic data, and all this stuff. But there may not be a stop sign there. Still, I showed enough time that I paid attention to them, and I responded to them, and you know, we'll see what we can do. That's the best you can say. Michael Hingson  39:55 And if it didn't happen that there was a stop sign, but there was a good reason for it. I would suspect that you would be the kind of person who would say, "Here's why it didn't happen. Speaker 1  40:03 Right, exactly, and and to explain that for and a lot of people don't understand things like that because it's easy to get defensive with government because sometimes it can be so colossally stupid. Yeah, but but it's just as long as you have that explanation, and sometimes it's it's really it's refreshing because then they hear the answer and they're good with it, so we have a problem here with there's noise on the freeway because they're expanding the freeway, and a lot of people are upset, so they call city hall, but it's not our project; it's the state highway district. So you know, it's like I can do only what I can do, but it's still you know, if you're the only elected official who bothered to reply to them and told them, you know, I hear what you're saying. I'm going to do whatever we can. Sometimes that makes people happy. They may not be happy in the big picture, but at least they got a response. Michael Hingson  40:48 And when you discover something that's relevant, I'll bet you are the kind of person who would then initiate another letter saying, "Here's why it didn't work, or "Here's why it will work. Speaker 1  40:59 Right, and I do follow up. So I did. In that case, I wrote a letter to the governor and said, "You know, is there anything you can do? And then I forwarded the letter on to the person who had contacted me and said, "Okay, this is the best I can do. Let's let's see what he can do. So yeah, Speaker 1  41:14 yeah. Michael Hingson  41:15 I'm I'm curious. You mentioned that property taxes did get lowered once in Cordellane, but nothing. No one ever did anything with that. How come? Speaker 1  41:23 Well, no. It's just we we did. We we kept them. You got you got them lowered. Michael Hingson  41:27 But but why didn't anybody pay attention to that? Speaker 1  41:30 No. Well, see, I'm sure they paid attention to it. We are only one entity on your property tax bill, so there's there's a few. Ah, good Michael Hingson  41:39 point. Speaker 1  41:39 We might have been the the one who kept it down, but the other ones may have kept it up. And then there's all the the formula is really complex, and so it could be that you know their assess property assessment went up, a lot of other things that would have happened that would have affected it. But like I said, I mean we made a big to do about it, saying hey look we worked, we cut the budget. We kept it flat for all you guys, and then no one said anything. But you know that that's it's discouraging, but it doesn't discourage me from continuing to try because I'll always try. Michael Hingson  42:12 You can only do what you can do, but at least at least you're doing it. Yeah. Now, if you want to live in a state where the taxes are very interesting, move to New Jersey, yeah, where we lived, the the taxes every town, every city had its own property taxes. You could live on a street, yeah, you could live on a street where you had a property tax of some amount, and if you walked across to the other side of the street, the property tax would be twice what yours was because the border runs right down the middle of the street. Speaker 1  42:45 That's crazy. Michael Hingson  42:47 We thought it was. Yeah, we thought it was kind of interesting, but we fortunately never had too horrible of property taxes in Westfield. But still, we heard about some other places that had some some horrible property taxes, but you know it's it's what what you have. Speaker 1  43:07 Yep. Michael Hingson  43:08 So you were in the city council for 14 years. What made you decide that you were going to run for mayor? Because you had to do that. You had to make that decision. Speaker 1  43:17 Yeah, didn't want to. You know, wasn't on my on my dance card to like, oh, next step up is going to be mayor. It was more of there was frustration that I had because the the past couple of mayors, good men, good people, but I always wanted to do more. I mean, being on the council, it was frustrating because I wanted a little more leadership out of the center seat wasn't seeing that, and then I worked earlier last year. I called up a bunch of people to see if they'd be willing to do the job. You know, good strong community members who would be provide the leadership and had the name recognition required to do the job, and no one wanted to do it. So I was like, okay, well, I'll I'll see if I can do it. I still have two years left on my council term, so if I lost, I'd still be part of the process. But there ended up being four people in that race, so it was pretty crowded. Which to me, you know, if if you're running if you run unopposed, it's pretty much a sign that people kind of like the way things are going. They're not they're not upset with you. Generally, if you have one opponent, you're considered that you know oh well good you know I get to compete for for the job or someone else is unhappy. But if you have a lot of opponents, it generally means that the public isn't happy with what's going on and they want to see some change. So there were four people in the race. I won with like 38% of the vote, so that's wow, Michael Hingson  44:45 yeah. Well, but clearly you're different than a lot of people. For example, you're a member of the Kootenay County Republican Central Committee, and yeah, and they sued you for defamation. What was all that about? Speaker 1  44:59 Well. So we had an episode here where the first of all the local Republican Party decided that running partisan races wasn't enough; that they wanted to get involved with nonpartisan races. And in Idaho, a lot of the local offices are nonpartisan. So city council is nonpartisan, school districts are nonpartisan. You know, water district, highway district, all these smaller local offices, and we have a community college here called North Idaho College. And the Senate committee decided that they would start to what they call rating and vetting candidates to determine who was the most conservative. And while a lot of Republicans appreciate that and they want to know who the real conservative is. The central committee realized that it was a way for them to exercise political power, because when people would get their recommendations, that would be the person who would win. And so they got power mad, and in my opinion, they hijacked the trustees of our local community college, and pretty much almost ran the thing into a ground. It was the it's the only college a community college in the history of the country that's ever been put on probation for disaccreditation due to board governance. Normally, when you disaccredit a college, you're disaccrediting it because of financial reasons, or something else, but or academics. Never, never has it happened that the board has been so crazy that the the ACL ACCU whatever it is the accreditation agency for community colleges has said, "What we're gonna we're gonna pull away your credentials, and all your students will not be receiving college credit. So, I mean, what what this board did that was endorsed by the local Republican Party, the extremists on the party, they they fired the president for no reason. They they started running up the bills, increasing the athletics budget. The board meetings were just pure chaos. Employees would leave. The local high schools stopped their their co education programs. It was just crazy. Wow! And and a lot of people didn't really understand what was going on. So I did a YouTube channel called Kootenay Rants, and Kootenay is the name of our county. Michael Hingson  47:20 Kootenay, yeah. I said Kootenay. Sorry about that. Speaker 1  47:22 It's no, it's okay. It's it could be either way. Who knows? Up north, they do say Kootenai, so we don't know. But anyway, this really got under the skin of the central committee because I pinned the blame on what was going on at the college on them, which is was justified, and I would not make anything up. Instead, I would just put in highlights from the meetings and say, "Here's what's happening, and here's the crazy stuff. You know, trustees yelling at members of the audience, making fun of them. You know, interrupting people, saying just weird, strange things. I mean, it just-it was odd. It was so bizarre, and so it was easy for me to make these videos. My background is in communications, and I know video production, so I was able to put together these videos on a YouTube channel, and you know, hundreds of people in the county would start watching them, including the central committee that did not like that I was exposing what I consider to be their corruption and their the the fact that I think they were responsible for this and they didn't like that so they accused me of defamation basically mean tweets because I would tweet about them and their nonsense and it was like they they made a big to do out of it because I was running for re-election for city council, so they came to a city council meeting to serve me, and you know recorded it and put it up on the internet and all this other stuff that that was just crazy. But my insurance company fortunately decided to represent me, and they just they thought the the suit was without merit. They don't say frivolous. They say without merit. Without Michael Hingson  49:04 merit. No, yeah. Speaker 1  49:05 And so yeah. And so eventually, now the suit is over, and I figured I would either win in court or it would be dismissed. But the insurance company settled, and I it was against my wishes. I said no. I said don't settle with these people. But the insurance company did settle, and I made sure that, as part of the settlement, that they would not say that I agreed to it, or that I said I was wrong, or I apologized, or anything. No, the insurance company just didn't want to waste any more money, so they decided to settle. They wrote a check. I don't know what it cost the central committee. As a member of the central committee, it has never been reported to the committee how much money they spent on that? Because it's it's pretty much the the Republican Central Committee of Kootenay County is pretty much a tyranny run by one guy and a personality cult, and there are members of the committee. There are some good Republicans such as myself on the committee who do believe in transparency and limited government and all those Ronald Reagan things. But there are these extremists on there who are just nutballs, and so there's a group of us here called North Idaho Republicans who are working to counter their insanity. And we've done a good job, but we need to do more work, and that's the story of the KCRCC. And they sued me for defamation. Michael Hingson  50:21 That's kind of crazy, though. Nevertheless, Speaker 3  50:23 of course. Michael Hingson  50:24 And it's only kind Speaker 1  50:26 of that. I wasn't laying awake. I mean, occasionally someone would call me up and they would say, "So what's the case? What's the what's happening with a lawsuit? And I'd say, "Well, a lawsuit. I said, "Oh yeah, that's right. They're suing me. I mean, it was never really. I was never obligated for it. Michael Hingson  50:39 Yeah. Well, so just out of curiosity, since the Republicans were doing this, where were the Democrats in all of that? Speaker 1  50:47 Well, we don't really have a lot of Democrats. That's Michael Hingson  50:49 what I was wondering. Yeah, Speaker 1  50:51 and so and and I always used to joke. I would say that the the Democrats, the Kootenai County Democrats, are looking for a new meeting location, and if anyone has a spare closet, got it. You let them know. No, they're they're all they're all very nice people. Michael Hingson  51:05 Yeah, Speaker 1  51:05 but they're they are in an extreme minority, and unfortunately, they they do try. So last time they had a body for every seat up for election, but they don't really come close. And it's a lot of it comes down to name recognition, but you also have a lot of red blue state refugees who come here. You have a lot of COVID refugees who came here, and so Idaho is very red. Kootenay County is very red, and it would take a tremendous amount of effort to to have a Democrat win here. We do have Democrats in the legislature, not a lot, but we do have them, and the the National Democratic Party is unwilling to spend a lot of money here because they know they're going to lose. So that's what I hear from them. But they are they are generally nice people. I mean, like you said, you if you wanted to vote for me here and you're a Democrat, I'd happily accept the vote. It's a nonpartisan position. We don't deal with those big divisive issues that you know that you you see on the news. Yeah, we're pretty much community-minded people, and I appreciate anyone who is. I do fight the KCRCC because I don't see them as community-minded, and that's one of the issues. Michael Hingson  52:18 Yeah. Well, it's it's unfortunate that that people are that way, but I I see it all too often in so many different ways. I mean, we face it with even in the blindness world with so many things where there ought to be major improvements and there ought to be defenses of the civil rights of blind people. For example, some of the rideshare programs don't do a lot to train their drivers about the fact that in reality they're obligated to take blind people with guide dogs, and oh, there's there is a fair amount of that, and it's and and the companies aren't willing to do anything about it, and we have to keep fighting it, which is just too bad. But there's just so many stuff, and there are so many people who just have these hidden agendas, or they just what it really comes down to is we don't want anybody telling us what to do, Speaker 1  53:09 right? Michael Hingson  53:11 And that's what it really comes down to. So, do you find that that religion gets into any of it at all, like with the conservative Christian movement or any of that, Speaker 1  53:24 there well, there's I do not like the politicization of the church. Michael Hingson  53:29 Yeah, Speaker 1  53:30 my favorite quote on that is that politics poisons the purity of the church. So I think we should keep the separation of church and state as much as possible, but there are you know politically motivated, politically active pastors, and I just I I think that's that's not the proper role of religion. I know that that there's kind of a battle going on in the far right about you know how much religion or how much that should should should be involved in politics in the public arena. In fact, there's a little across from the Costco up here. There is a little yard sign in front of some business that says "Vote Bible, and I always think that's kind of. I mean, I understand what the sentiment is, and I would always want to think that the people who we elect are good moral people. You know, Adam said that our Constitution is best suited for a moral people. I don't believe that means that there's morality in the Constitution. I believe there's morality in people, Michael Hingson  54:32 right? Speaker 1  54:33 And we do want people who have good ethics and good morals in public office, and it's very obvious when that doesn't happen. But I do not think. I think the purpose of our Constitution and the First Amendment is to ensure that we all have the the right to enjoy whatever religion we want, and we don't want to pick favorites. And so, what I see with a lot of these people is that they want to pick a favorite. Michael Hingson  54:55 Yeah, Speaker 1  54:56 they they not only want to pick the first religion, but they want. Everyone to go to the same church and the same service and sit in the same pew. Yeah, and that's not going to happen in any church. It's not going to happen in any denomination of any church. And then, and see, that's the other question: is if you know if you're going to insist that this is a Christian nation, it's like okay, but which denomination is it? Catholic? Is it Protestant? Is it Mormon? I mean, I you know you tell me because it's just going to be this incredible knot of worms, which is why I think the genius of the founders was that you know the the clause about religion is is two things: it gives you the freedom to exercise your own religion, and it also restricts the government from declaring that there's a religion. Yeah, and I think the far right kind of misses that when they when they take the message of we like moral people in office, but to dictate the morals to someone else is wrong. Michael Hingson  55:52 You know, I and it was Tolstoy who once said the biggest problem with Christianity is that people don't practice it, and I I see that so often. It's it is so unfortunate, but it is Speaker 1  56:03 there. Yeah. So that is a tough one. Michael Hingson  56:07 So if you could change one thing in the world, what would it be? I'd Speaker 1  56:12 get rid of the internet in a heartbeat. Specifically, social media. I think the the problem with social media is it amplifies our immaturities, and that is a huge issue. the The solution to that is to make the the publishers responsible for the content. So, in other words, Facebook could be sued for anything that someone puts on Facebook, and that would terrify Facebook, but it would terrify them to the point that they would actually regulate themselves and and start dialing back. I mean, I can say 20 years ago or so, when I whenever I was first on Facebook, I would go on there and I would see my kids, and they'd be playing a ball game or they'd be over at a friend's house. You'd see birthdays, vacations. It was just kind of like it was a social thing. You go on there now, and it's politics, and it's like this person deserved to be shot, and it's just-it's so-it's so extreme, and it's so rude. And you know, some of the stuff they said about me is not very nice, but I think that if we're going to solve one problem in the world, we really need to dial back all the animosity that's on the inter

Sometimes the hardest setback becomes the start of a far better life. I speak with Jeff Brown, an international photography business mentor whose path began with dyslexia, school struggles, and a fishing fly business at age 16. Jeff shares how military photography, personal branding, and business skills helped him build a successful creative career. He also opens up about losing everything through a failed pub, rebuilding his mental health, and creating a global photography mentoring business. His story shows how persistence, clear goals, strong branding, and the courage to change direction can create an unstoppable life. Highlights: 00:01:38 - How dyslexia and school struggles shaped Jeff's drive to work for himself. 00:05:58 - The first sale that showed him entrepreneurship was possible. 00:14:50 - Why passion and effort mattered more than early photography skills. 00:35:49 - How branding and marketing helped grow four photography businesses. 00:39:06 - The business failure that forced Jeff to rebuild his life. 01:01:49 - Why clear goals, strong branding, and steady action create growth. About the Guest: Jeff Brown is an International Photography Business Mentor, Best Selling Photography Business Author, Public Speaker and President of The British Institute of Professional Photography. Also working for The International School Photography Conference Team he has delivered sell-out courses and workshops around the world. Jeff works closely with photographers from all niches and photographic backgrounds having a real passion to help them grow their online brand and achieve their goals.          Jeff first dipped his toe into entrepreneurship at the age of 15 while still at school, selling handmade fishing flies to local tackle shops to boost his pocket money. After leaving school at 16 he set up his first full-time venture, a mail-order fishing tackle business. His fishing tackle business came to an end 7 years later, shortly after Jeff enlisted in the Royal Navy where he went on to serve as a military photographer and intelligence analysist.            Following nearly 10 years service he left the armed forces to set up his own photography company, and eighteen months later had a successful six-figure wedding photography company and a commercial photography business, then going on to open a separate school photography business and a Boudoir Makeover studio turning over 1,000 boudoir and model shoots per year.            In 2014 Jeff decided to follow his dreams of owning a country food pub by investing over £120k of his own money into a pub venture, which turned out to be his greatest ever failure, losing his entire investment and racking up £60k of debt in just 12 months while at the same time going through a divorce.           After suffering from depression in 2015, he changed direction again and developed an online photography business mentoring program, making it his mission to help and inspire photographers worldwide to market their businesses better.                                                Part of Jeff's major focus and teachings are in the areas of Goal Setting, Brand Message, Consistency, and Website Content including the new AI and AEO search on Google, and also his favourite social media platform which is LinkedIn. It's essential to have a mindset for success and a clear path to follow. No business can truly succeed without goals, direction, a powerful brand and a positive mindset to achieve.        Jeff has written 4 internationally best-selling photography books and recently published his first travel book – ·      The Photographers Missing Link-edIn ·      The Ambitious Photographer's Journal          ·      Help My Photography Website Needs More Customers        ·      The Photographer's Gratitude & Mindset Journal       ·      Plan Your Ultimate Northumberland 250 Road Trip   He writes for several photography magazines and associations and is also a brand ambassador for OM System (Olympus Cameras), The British Photography Awards, Studio Ninja, The Societies of Photographers, and the UK and US Brand Ambassador for The Shutter Studio App.         Jeff lives in the beautiful scenic county of Northumberland, England. He's a keen traveller having visited over 60 countries so far, as well as being an outdoor enthusiast, motorbiker and loves getting out in nature when ever he can. Ways to connect with Jeff**:** Website: www.thephotographersmentor.comFacebook: www.facebook.com/JeffBrownThePhotographersMentorLinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/thephotographersmentorAmazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Jeff%20Brown/author/B09M76J1XK About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi again, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. You know what's really fun about this podcast is we get to meet all sorts of people who talk about all sorts of different kinds of things, and today we get to talk to a gentleman from England, Jeff Brown, and Jeff, among other things, is an international photography business mentor, best-selling photography business author, he's a public speaker and also the president of the British Public Institute of Photography. I think I said that right. Jeff Brown  01:36 British British Institute of Professional Photography. British Michael Hingson  01:40 Institute of Professional Photography. Got to say it right, but anyway, and and all sorts of other things. He's an adventurous kind of person, as you're going to learn in the course of the day. So, Jeff, I want to welcome you to Unstoppable Mindset, and we're really glad you're here. Jeff Brown  01:55 Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Michael Hingson  01:57 Well, I'm glad to do it, and I have a visitor in the studio today, my cat Stitch, who is monitoring this, and I'm sure that if she has any opinions, she's going to voice them. But we'll see. Stitch is a wonderful kitty. She's almost 16 years old, and we we love having her around. But anyway, so Jeff, why don't we start by you telling us kind of maybe about the early Jeff growing up and some of those things, and we'll go from there. Jeff Brown  02:25 So growing up, so I grew up in the northeast of England, and I was born in 1970. So I'm 55 now, and back in sort of late 70s, early 80s, the northeast of England was a was a bit of a grim place. It was gray. It was there was a lot of poverty. It was mainly coal mining and shipbuilding, and it was the old sort of mentality of you know you go to school, you study hard, you get a job, you stay in the job for for your life, you retire, and then you're dead. That's it. Yeah. So, for some reason, that didn't really, really appeal to me. And I used to love reading. I read loads of books. I was obsessed with books. Got into books from a very early age. Into sort of fantasy type books, Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, and stuff like that. But it was only when I got into maybe probably about the the junior schools I'd gone through the infant school I got to about eight or nine year old that I realized there was something the matter with me in the fact that I'm really struggled with with school I wasn't very good at it years and years later, I found out I was dyslexic, but I couldn't read out aloud. I had real problems with numbers. Numbers seemed to always look the wrong way around to me, and I got an instant dislike of school and an instant dislike of authority. I had I just I couldn't wait to get out of it, but I was quite creative when I got into fishing, I was good at making fishing flies. I got into photography, and that sort of gave me more of a creative mindset. Where I thought, well, I don't want to work for anybody else. I don't want to be told what to do. I want to try and make my own direction. And I decided that I was going to be self-employed or you know start my own business at the age of 14, Michael Hingson  04:23 what did your parents think of your your kind of independent mindset or entrepreneurial mindset? Because you must have voiced it along the way. Jeff Brown  04:31 Well, I did, yeah, and funny enough, you know, I said I had a real dislike of school. I mean, I actually not not overly proud of it, but I was expelled from school at the age of 16, kicked out of school because I got into quite a bit of trouble. I was I was very rebellious. I really disliked it with the passion, and I left school with zero qualifications. So I didn't I didn't pass any exams. I filled every exam that I actually bothered to turn up for, but to. It matters worse. My dad was a college lecturer, and my mum was a teacher. So, so obviously it didn't go down well with with having two parents who were in the education system. But they backed me 100% They were they they could see that I was struggling, but dyslexia wasn't really a thing that was talked about back. Yeah, and yeah, my my dad put forward at the time one and a half 1000 pound to help me get onto the you know get the equipment I needed and the the office space to start my first business. Michael Hingson  05:34 So it was pretty supportive, Jeff Brown  05:36 very supportive. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and and I think it helped as well that my first business was making fishing flies and tying and exporting fishing flies to fishing businesses around the world. But my dad was keen on fishing as well, so he had he had an attraction to the business. Michael Hingson  05:54 Okay. Well, I know that my wife had lots of relatives in England. A lot of them were from the Cornwall Mosel area, and a lot of them, of course, were very much into fishing. Jeff Brown  06:05 Oh yeah, yeah. I know Cornwall. In fact, I spent a year in Cornwall on on Navy search and rescue, and that would have been 1919 98 I think it was then very beautiful place. Michael Hingson  06:19 I've not been. I'd love to go sometime. We'll have to figure that out. Jeff Brown  06:23 Yeah, it is. It's gorgeous. It's gorgeous. Michael Hingson  06:26 So you started this business. So you were basically 15 when you started the the business, which I think is kind of interesting. That's at a young age, and of course, by the time you were 16, as you said, you got expelled from school, which had to not be very very much fun. Jeff Brown  06:44 Yeah, I mean, well, to be honest, so the the starting of the business, I used to I used to go into the fishing tackle shops at weekend myself and one of my friends who who I used to go fishing with, and he was good at making flies. He was called Phil. Obviously, I'm called Jeff, and we decided we were going to create a business called PJ Flies. And one weekend, we we went into one of the local fish and tackle shops, and we were buying some some bits and bobs to make fish and flies with. And the business owner, the owner of the shop, said, "Look, says, look, if you bring me some flies down next week, if they if they if they're any good, I'll buy them off you. So we walked into the shop and took these fishing flies in the following week in a little presentation box. And I remember him individually taking each fly out at a time because he said, "How much how much how much are you going to sell me them for? And I said, "Well, I'll sell them for 10 pence each. So he was taking them out, and I was counting up in my head. And at the time, my pocket money was, I think, was three or four pounds a week, and I came out of that shop with a 10-pound note. So it was double what I was getting paid off my pocket money, and it was such a great feeling. So that was my first ever sort of dip into entrepreneurship, earning money, and and he said, and the last thing he said as I went out the door, he says, if you can if you can make the same amount next week or even double, bring them back and I'll buy them off you. So the following week I went back and made 20 quid. Michael Hingson  08:18 Wow, what goes into making a fly, I'm not a fisherman by by training or anything, so I don't know a lot about fly fishing. Jeff Brown  08:27 Yeah, so it's all feathers and so feathers and furrows, and it's all held onto the hook with with a very fine thread, like what's called a gossamer thread. It takes it takes a while to learn. So I was taught by an old guy who was a really good fisherman, and he he had a caravan on the same caravan site that my parents had that they used to go on holiday on, and because we we we never used to go abroad in those days, all the holidays were spent in England, and that he he saw that I was getting into fishing, and he came and taught me how to how to tie fishing flies, which was great. Michael Hingson  09:06 Yeah, and of course, the whole idea behind the fly is to attract the fish, right? Jeff Brown  09:10 That's right. Yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson  09:13 So that they will, if you will, take the bait. Jeff Brown  09:16 Yeah, yeah, totally. And the funny thing was, I was yeah, I used to love fishing, but I don't need fish, so I would either put you know put them back in the in in the river, or I'd I'd give them away to to members of the family. Michael Hingson  09:30 Wow. Well, and suddenly fortunes changed, and there you were making flies and selling them. Jeff Brown  09:37 That's right. That's right. Michael Hingson  09:39 So how long did you do that? Jeff Brown  09:42 So we we got we got a proper sort of business premises in 1986. So when I was I was 16 year old, and we applied for a grant with the then Prince's Trust, which was run by Prince Charles, who's now King Charles. And we were the youngest people in in the UK to be accepted for a grant. They bent the rules and they give us the grant under the age of 18. So we got the grant at 17 year old, and then shortly after, we were in a business sort of a business community, a big a big workspace with lots of offices with other creative people in, and shortly after the the center had opened, about six months after, the the the manager of the center came up and says, "Well, look, we'd like to we'd like you to make a box of salmon flies, but a really good box of salmon flies, all the best ones, and we'll pay you. And it's going to be a presentation box for a special guest who's coming to officially open the business center in a few months. But we can't tell you who it is. And anyway, it turned out two months later it was it was Prince Charles. Speaker 1  10:59 He Jeff Brown  10:59 came to visit us, and he was presented with a box of fishing flies-the the flies that we tied from. Michael Hingson  11:07 Wow, that was pretty cool. So you got to meet him. Jeff Brown  11:11 So yeah, we got to meet him. He talked about fishing. He talked about fly tying. He said he'd he'd been bought a fly tying kit for Christmas one year from his wife, who would have been Princess Diana, but he couldn't get away from get away from it. It was too. He found it too complicated and too complex. So he says, "I really admire that you you know that you guys can can tie the flies. So so yeah. So it was nice. It was nice to meet him. It was nice to be able to do that presentation box, and we had that business till I was 26 so Michael Hingson  11:45 10 years, Jeff Brown  11:46 nearly 10 years. Yeah. Michael Hingson  11:48 Now, have you met him ever since Jeff Brown  11:52 then? I haven't met him, but I have met other members of the the royal family because I was a my next stage in business, so my next stage in life was to become a a military photographer. I met a few members of the royal family in my capacity as a military photographer. So I went from so one avenue being creative, which was the fishing flies, into sort of another avenue being creative. And the funny thing was, I'd never had any intention of John in the military. None of my family were in the military. My dad had done his national service, and my granddad had served in the in the navy during the Second World War. But just on a whim, one day I happened to be walking past a military careers office, and I thought I'd pop in. I love cooking. I thought, oh look, I'd seen a picture on the window where he could train to be a military chef. Yeah, okay. So I went into enquire about being a chef, joined as an aircraft engineer, and then transferred across to become a military photographer. And funny enough, like I said early on, that I hate authority and I hate being told what to do because that came from a hatred of hatred of schools. Michael Hingson  13:10 A school, right? Jeff Brown  13:11 But I believe that the military was different because people say, "Well, you know, if you if you hate authority and hate being told what to do, why the hell did you go and join the military? But the military was very different in the fact that I put up with the I put up with the authority because the military give you adventure. It wasn't a nine foot nine to five. It wasn't a routine job, you know. So it give and I love excitement. I love adventure. I love the the idea of every day being different. So so I was happy enough to put up with military life, and I did that for nearly nine years. Michael Hingson  13:49 Well, so did you find that the military respected your creativity as you grew at being a photographer, and so you were a photographer, so that you were allowed to, to to be creative and do the things that you wanted to do, or did you find that there was just as much authoritarianism, if you will, and they kept telling you what to Jeff Brown  14:15 do? No, no, they were very good at being creative. Funny, the the military photography branch-it's only a small branch. It's about 80 people in the in the in the navy photography branch. So by comparison to all the other branches of the navy, it's tiny, and it's always also a very sought after branch. So basically, have to wait till somebody retires or somebody, you know, gives up their position that you can actually request, and I just managed to get in at the right time where somebody had left, and I applied, and I got accepted and went on to their training course, and their training course is is quite intense, 26 exams in six months, but. All the people who run it are really passionate photographers, so they're all about developing your own creativity. Yes, there's rules and regulations to follow, but it was very different than other other avenues of the armed forces. And then, you know, your average working day, you were you were given a lot of freedom. You were given a brief for a job, but then quite often you would just go off and design that job the way you wanted, you know. Michael Hingson  15:24 But why did you, since you, I guess you, as you said, joined as an aircraft engineer? Why did you decide to look at photography? What what attracted you to that? Jeff Brown  15:35 Because I didn't. Well, first of all, I didn't realize you could be a military photographer. So it was, and you can't join as a military photographer anyway. It's what's called a sidewards entry branch. You have have to have served three years in a in a another part of the armed forces before you can apply. And to apply to get into the military military photography branch, you have to pretty much do it on your own merit. So you've got to build a portfolio up. You've got to do all the application yourself, and they also look at your. It's not like the way you react to discipline, the way you think on your own two feet, sort of thing. So, funny enough, when I went through the interviews and and they looked at my portfolio, they said that my my work was pretty poor, but they loved the way I thought, and they loved the way I was driven, and would get up early and go out and do stuff. This is, you know, it's the it's the passion and the the willingness to learn. We can teach you all the other stuff, but you you know you you're showing that willingness and and going that extra mile. That's that's what got us in and and got us to be accepted into the into the branch. It wasn't my skills as a photographer because I was that was pretty useless. Pretty new, Michael Hingson  16:49 yeah, Jeff Brown  16:50 yeah. But you know they they developed that. Michael Hingson  16:55 So the the whole idea of going in and learning to cook and being a chef kind of went by the wayside, huh? Jeff Brown  17:00 It did, yes. But I still, I still, I still love cooking to this day, and I was still very passionate about it. And I always had a dream of, you know, one day owning a a pub or running a food pub, Michael Hingson  17:12 right? Well, and you know things happen, but you you clearly are an adventurous sort of person that you even chose to do all of this, and that-that's in of itself, I think, admirable to you know to do that. So you you became a photographer, and so what kind of things did you do during the time you were in the military from a photographic standpoint? Jeff Brown  17:40 So we would do everything. We do everything from portraits of sort of admirals in uniform, official portraits. We do big presentations and awards. We do a lot of PR photography. So we'd be we'd be tasked with with a concept or an idea, or being told something is happening, or we want to promote this, so they might say, right? We've got an aircraft carrier coming into your area. Can you come up with some ideas to to sort of really promote it? Something that look really exciting. It'll encourage people to to join the military because one of the one of the things military photography branch, it's it's about PR. It's trying to get pictures of the military into the into the newspapers in a positive light. So you know, young young men and women go, "Oh, that looks great! I'd love to join, and it serves them an absolute fortune in in in advertising. So so that was that was a lot of the stuff we did, we create concepts and ideas, and quite often the concept and ideas led to having a lot of fun. You know, I'd say like, well, what have I got at my disposal? And then an admiral might say, well, what do you need? I said, well, I need a few helicopters. I need some fast patrol boats. I need some marines on on on ribs lent over these these you know rigid inflatable boats all camouflaged up with their cam cream on and their rifles and they'll be in front of the in front of the the aircraft carrier then we'll have the the helicopters flying in the background and all this was was so basically controlled by us, so we would have headsets on. We'd be talking to the, talking to the the pilots. We'd be directing people, and those shoots probably cost 10s and 10s of 1000s of pounds to to put together. When you think about it, but it was great to see some of the images come out. And in those days, when I first started doing it, we were shooting a lot of the stuff on film, so we didn't have the the the the benefit of seeing the images instantly, as in you know with digital photography. Michael Hingson  19:51 I was going to say much less digitally editing it. It was all on film. Jeff Brown  19:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson  19:56 When did it migrate over to be more digital? Jeff Brown  20:00 So we were still we when I was in training we we were using digital but still preferred you to to do a bit more on the film side of things Michael Hingson  20:08 higher quality Jeff Brown  20:10 yeah and and they also I think for like an archival purposes for the idea of have negatives and hard print Speaker 2  20:18 yeah Jeff Brown  20:19 but then you know towards like the 2004 two you know 2003 2004 Then they were starting to embrace digital fully, and and you know do away with all the the film. Michael Hingson  20:33 Wow! Jeff Brown  20:34 And obviously there is the cost aspect as well. You know because you with film it costs every time you you press the shutter button, you know you can you can take a lot more images. But I suppose it does it does make you a bit more of a lazy photographer. Michael Hingson  20:49 Well, I I suppose in some senses it can. It just depends on how disciplined you are. Well, you seem to be a pretty disciplined kind of person, and so you you worked at that pretty well, and I can. I can appreciate that. So so when did you start doing photography for the military? When did you enroll in the military? Jeff Brown  21:11 So that was 1997 Michael Hingson  21:14 Okay, so you were what 2526 25 Jeff Brown  21:19 Yeah, 2026 Yeah, yeah, 2627 yeah. Michael Hingson  21:23 Well, and the the thing about photography or or any skill like that that is is pretty unique and pretty new for you is that you had to really develop the knack to doing it, but you obviously also had to have a lot of understanding about things like, as you said, PR and all that. I mean, some of that just had to be a little bit more natural, or just you observed so much that you realized the value of it. And as you pointed out, having the the whole photography branch in the military had to be incredibly much less expensive for the military, no matter what you wanted them to do, than them doing PR in other ways because it was all done internally. Yes, yes, you had to have helicopters and military people and all that other stuff, but they didn't have to pay the company to go out and, or didn't have to pay it much to go out and do the photography because you're the company. Jeff Brown  22:29 That's right. That's right. And also, some some of the jobs were required a certain level of vetting that they couldn't bring a company in unless those people were vetted. To you know, like on, I did quite a few photography shoots on nuclear submarines, which you you can't enter a nuclear submarine base unless you're you're vetted to a certain level. Michael Hingson  22:51 Right. Now that brings up a point. So let's let's go back to that. So going into a nuclear submarine base and so on, and and doing photography. What what was the purpose of pictures for that? Since it had to be pretty cleared and must have been somewhat classified. Jeff Brown  23:11 Well, sometimes some of the the shoots on board the submarine would be like award ceremonies. So okay, yeah, you know, people getting medals or achievements, and actually getting a photograph from receiving their award from the captain of the submarine. But then sometimes we would have PR photographs of of the the submarine sailing, and we'd be on speedboats going down the lock, photographing the submarine. Michael Hingson  23:41 But what you were not doing was taking pictures of things that were so classified that they didn't dare show them to the public or whatever. Jeff Brown  23:49 Yes, yes, Michael Hingson  23:50 yeah. Which which makes sense. Speaker 1  23:57 If you enjoy unstoppable mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  24:30 So you you did that, and so you clearly found a niche to to do and to to work at, and obviously loved it. Jeff Brown  24:43 I do. I mean, it took it took a while to get the confidence. I'm quite an introverted person, so where I love taking photographs, and you know, it's easy to take photographs of things and objects and landscapes and that sort of stuff. It's. It's quite hard when you don't have a lot of confidence and you are quite introverted to start directing people and telling people what to do, especially when you had to direct, you know, entire ships, companies, or groups of 4050, people to do a a group shot at the awards ceremony. So that that was something that took a bit of getting used to and put me out of my comfort zone to to become a bit more sociable and a bit less introverted, and also direct people from behind the camera. Michael Hingson  25:31 So you you became a director, Jeff Brown  25:35 I suppose. Yeah, you do. In some senses, Michael Hingson  25:38 anyway. Jeff Brown  25:38 Yeah, yeah, and from from another point of view, I sudden realized that you know you might not like directing people, or you might be really nervous about speaking to people you've never met before and telling them what to do. But quite often, the people on the other side of the camera are just as nervous as you because they don't like having their photograph taken. They feel awkward, so you know part of your job as a photographer is to put people at ease and make people feel comfortable. Michael Hingson  26:03 Yeah, and I think about it as a public speaker. I keep hearing all the time that one of the top fears that people have is speaking and standing on a stage and speaking. And I and I finally realize that that's because we're conditioning people to think that it's scary, but the fact of the matter is that, and I still believe this to this day, audiences want speakers to succeed. Unless you're just a real jerk, audiences want you to succeed, and I would think that that some of that same level of confidence goes into what you do as a photographer. You are-they want you to succeed, and the people who are nervous about you taking their pictures and so on. Your job, as you point out, is to kind of help make them feel more comfortable about Jeff Brown  26:55 it. Yeah, and and you, you know, on from your point of view, you know, you you want somebody to love the picture? Michael Hingson  27:02 Yeah, Jeff Brown  27:02 you want someone to go, oh wow, you know, like actually take away their their dislike and awkwardness of having a photograph taken, and you know it's it's quite rewarding when you see somebody go, oh wow, I didn't know I could look that good, you know, because you've you've directed them, you've posed them, you've helped them feel more relaxed, and they see themselves in a different because it's it's quite it quite often it's not that somebody always looks awkward or you know they don't take a good picture as people say oh don't take my picture I don't take a good picture you know it's the fact that they've never been directed they've never they've always felt felt uncomfortable and awkward so it comes through in the the final image because they don't look relaxed. They don't look natural. They've got this fake smile. They look uncomfortable. Michael Hingson  27:49 I know. For me, I've I've never worried about that. Of course, being blind my whole life, I never really cared a whole lot about pictures. Yeah. So I love to pick on pictures all the time. So you know, for example, people say that a picture is worth 1000 words, and I just point out, yeah, but it takes a whole lot more memory. So, but but but I I appreciate pictures, and I've learned a lot more about photography and appreciating photography ever since September 11th. And part of that was my guide dog Roselle at the time, who became a real camera ham hound. She loved to be in front of the camera, and there was one time we were on a Larry King show on CNN, and you know his shots are and the photographers and and the and everything on the show is basically front like from the chest up, and and so on, and they take pictures. So one day we were going to be on the show, and they made a a little platform that Roselle, my guide dog, could lie on, and they said, "Okay, put her up on there, and I did, and she laid down, put her head between her paws, and that was it. And the director came like about a minute before the show started, and he said, "Isn't there anything you can do to get her to react more and to be a little bit more involved in the show? And I said, "Are the Klieg lights on yet? And he said, "No. I said, "Just wait till you turn the lights on. Everything will change. The lights came on. She lifted up her head, started blinking her eyes and flashing her eyelashes, smiling and licking her chops, and just having a good old time. She loved the camera. It was so funny. Jeff Brown  29:39 Yeah, I can't get. I can't get my dog to sit. He won't sit in front. He won't sit in front of the camera. He's a working Springer Spaniel. He will not stay still for two minutes. And there's something about it. Every time you look, you pick up the camera. I think he knows that you want to take a picture, and he turns his head away. He looks the opposite direction. Michael Hingson  29:57 Yeah. See, Roselle was exactly the opposite. Knew you wanted to take her picture, and she was going, "Bring it on! She just absolutely loved it. It was so funny, and and and it was it was a blessing. But it it as as we talked about it, as I talked to photographers and other people when we dealt with different interviews and so on, I grew to appreciate the value of pictures and what it was that they were trying to get, and it didn't take any work really to get Roselle to be involved in that. It didn't take a lot of work to get me involved with it, but I gained a greater understanding of it. So I certainly value the fact that there's there's a lot of reasons for taking photographs, although I also like audio input and other things like that that I'm going to see. But still, it's it's great that we have this technology, and nowadays, of course, because it is so digital, it makes it so much easier. Jeff Brown  30:59 It does. I think I think obviously there's you know everybody's using photographer now. Everyone walks around with a camera in their pocket, which is you know effectively a smartphone, and the quality of the images that you can take on a phone are fantastic. You know the you know the the resolution, the color saturation, the the look absolutely amazing. But sometimes I think people forget to stop and appreciate the moment. So everybody is more, you know, getting the picture taken, sticking it onto Instagram, onto Facebook, and also we have all these digital memories. But not many people are printing pictures out and putting them on the walls like we used to in the 80s and 90s. You know, family portraits, and I think that is a big thing that photographers need to be to be sort of reinventing and encouraging people to to enjoy the wall art, personalize the home, have a picture on the wall that brings a smile to your face every time you see it. Because if you take it on your phone, you you enjoy it for a second, and then it becomes a memory, and it goes in. I looked the other day. I've got 14 and a half 1000 pictures on my phone. Yeah. So, and I only ever see them, you know, seconds after I take them and I post them on Facebook, and then maybe a year later when a Facebook memory comes up and reminds me, oh, this is what you were doing this time last year. Michael Hingson  32:20 Yeah. Well. Well, and I understand that, and I, I, I also understand what you're saying about lazy photography because, as you said, you take the picture, you look at it, and it's gone, and you don't necessarily do all you can to make sure that the picture is looking as good as it as it can look, and sometimes we just rely on the automatic zoom and other things like that to make the picture look good. But the bottom line is that ultimately we're in control of it and really should make the picture as good as we can make it. Jeff Brown  32:54 Yeah, I mean that was that was what we were taught in the military right at the very beginning. And as I say, you know, was starting out on on on film cameras. It was get it right in the camera. You know, get it right in the camera. It'll look a lot better, and it'll save you hours of time in the dark room. And then there's a tendency now for photographers to think, "Oh, that'll do. I'll just sort it out in Photoshop afterwards, and which again takes time. And as a photographer, time is money. So yeah, yeah. The better you can get the composition and the and the way a photograph looks in the camera, then the less work you're going to have to do afterwards. Michael Hingson  33:35 Yeah, which makes perfect sense. And so I appreciate that. Well, so you were in the military for 10 years, and what made you retire from the military? And also, what kind of skills did you learn that you then took away from the military? One of them had to be accepting authority a little bit more, but I'm being sarcastic. But still, what what kind of skills and so on did you learn, and and did you take away, and and why did you even leave the military after 10 years? Jeff Brown  34:07 So, so being a military photographer, I was a military photographer, and there was a new a new sort of breed of like a new discipline that was coming into into the into our area into the the photography branch, and it was called IA, which is an intelligence analyst, and they believed that photographers, probably rightly, had a real attention to detail and a keen a keen eye for spotting things, and they were so they recruited intelligence analysts from the photography branch to analyze intelligence imagery, satellite imagery, reconnaissance, and then collate this information with other intelligence services. Like Lacher on I six and JCHQ, so so people on the ground, you know, and and military listening outposts, and so I got sent to work. So I did my intelligence course, and I got sent to work for with the intelligence services for about two and a half years now. While I was while I was doing my job as a military analyst, intelligence analyst, I started getting people coming into my office and saying, "You're a military photographer, aren't you? Yeah. Would you photograph my dog? Can you can you photograph my daughter at her birthday? Do you do weddings? Can you do my my my partner's wedding and stuff like that? So started doing a little bit of stuff on weekends, and then soon realized that there was actually quite a good bit of money being a photographer. So that was it. So that that set me on the path of right. I'm going to get out the military. I'm going to start with my own business. I'm going to go back to being self-employed again, but this time using my skills as a photographer. And yeah, I had good photography skills. I had other skills that the military had sort of drummed into me, which was you know timekeeping, organization, attention to detail, and that would work brilliant with a wedding because with a wedding you've got to organize people, everything's got to be on time. You've you've got to have that attention to detail, so started doing weddings on weekends, and then I left, and now decided to go into partnership with another military photographer who was working at the same the same base as me, and was also from the same the same area, the same the same city. So I left first because he was married with two kids. Alif first to set the business up and get the business bringing in money, and then about six months later, the business was bringing in enough money for him to put his notice in and and come out and and join me full time in the photography business. So and then it just skyrocketed from there. We ended up having four different photography businesses, Michael Hingson  37:03 pretty impressive, huh? Jeff Brown  37:05 It was good, but I think you know a lot of the lot the stuff that we did is when we left the military is you get a resettlement grant to resettle you back into civilian life to to to get you ready to work for other people, but obviously we were going to go self employed, so we we spent this resettlement grant of 7000 pound on marketing and branding training. So I got 7000 Kev got 7000 So we spent spent a lot of our money on understanding how to run a business, understanding what brand was all about and brand concept and and marketing. And it wasn't necessarily our photography skills that helped us succeed. It was the skills of actually understanding how to run a business and how to market our brand, Michael Hingson  37:49 which also goes a little bit back to understanding PR and just as you said, understanding all about business, which is which is pretty cool. Speaker 3  37:57 Yeah. Michael Hingson  37:59 Well, as you as you did that, how easy was it for you to integrate back into society and become disciplined enough to run your own business? Because when you were in the military, you had other people who were making a lot of those decisions, but you had to learn something along the way or figure out something along the way that allowed you to truly run your own business. Jeff Brown  38:22 To be honest, I felt I felt quite excited to be going back to it because, obviously, you know, from sort of 1415, year old, I'd had I'd had my own business, and that that was my first my first ever job. You know, working for myself with fish and fish and tackle business, and I sort of realized early on that yes, I don't have a boss, but ultimately the business is the boss because the business demands from you all the time. It demands how much work you need to put in, and if you don't put the work in, then you don't get the money. But the other good thing about running your own business is you're not on a fixed wage. You know, you have that ability to make a lot more money, without having to be promoted or or impress somebody else, you know. So for some people, it doesn't work. Like my girlfriend always says, she doesn't think she could do what I do because she doesn't like that uncertainty. Of you know, because every business is ups and downs, ups and downs. You have low moments. You have high moments, but that's life in general, isn't it? And I think you've just got to have more high moments than low moments. But yeah, I love it. I don't think I could ever work for anybody else. But a lot of, I think I'm unemployable. I don't think I can. I don't think I could go into a normal job. But a lot of those high Michael Hingson  39:40 moments are also moments that essentially you create. It's your mindset. That's Jeff Brown  39:45 right. Yeah, Michael Hingson  39:46 because you know, like failure. Everybody talks about failure. Well, you know, you're going to experience failure in your life, and I have gotten to the point where I tend to react and say there really is no such thing as failure. Because failure seems to be an absolute-you screwed up, and that's all there is to it. And the reality is, it's not. Failure isn't really the issue. The issue is okay. You made a plan. Something didn't work right. The question really is now: Where do you go from here? How do you fix it? What have you learned from what happened? And I think that's really the issue. Jeff Brown  40:20 That's totally that's totally right, and you know, but I made a a decision back in 2014 So you said, you know, I love cooking, and had the photography businesses, which which were both doing very well. They were both they were all super successful, you know, bringing in the money, and I decided, wouldn't it be nice to buy a really, really beautiful traditional country pub, one with log fires, you know, in the middle of the countryside, maybe a two, 300 year old building, and and run my own pub? So that was that was my idea. So so I found this this beautiful little country pub in Durham, in the northeast of England, and it was like a picture postcard country pub that looked beautiful. It actually had two log fires. It had, I think, it was about 300 year old. It had wooden beams, everything, and so I fell in love with it. I I bought the lease on it. I plowed 120,000 pounds of my own money into it, and within 12 months, I'd lost all that money. I was a further 60,000 pound in debt, and I couldn't see any way out. Because you say, you know, like failure. Sometimes people think failure is that's it, that's the end. They can't see past it, and stupidly, I decided that that was it. I couldn't go on anymore, so I tried to drive my car off a bridge. I was, I was drunk at the time, but you know, luckily I didn't. I just damaged the car. I didn't damage myself. I woke up the next morning feeling utterly disgusted with myself because my daughter at the time would have been seven year old. and I realized I needed to get out the pub, and I needed to change a different direction, which I did. So I ran away, and I came to the countryside where I live now in Northumberland, and moved away from all my family and and my friends, about an hour away from all my family and friends to restart my life again, and I spent probably about six months listening to positivity books and audio books, and and trying to rewind my mindset, and then take a new direction. And that's when I got into the idea of because I was in the middle of the countryside, I could run an online business training photographers in marketing and branding, and you know how to how to promote themselves on the internet, and I could do that with anybody anywhere in the world who was a photographer. So that was my idea, and that's what I went for. And you know, looking back at it, 11 years on from that, it would be 11 years in March when I tried to take my own life, and I thought that was that was the biggest worst failure I'd ever have. It was the best failure I ever had because I've never been as happy. I've never been as stress free. My work takes me all over the world, speaking and meeting photographers. I have an absolutely amazing community. No day is the same because I'm on all different time zones, speaking to different people, and and I just love it. It's stress free, but you know, if I'd stayed at the pub, that wouldn't have been stress free. So, Michael Hingson  43:33 so what happened? That why did the pub fail? Fail, or or why didn't the public pub succeed? And what did you learn from that? Jeff Brown  43:40 So, well, first of all, probably I probably fell in love with the idea of the pub, but I probably didn't do enough research. Now, funny enough, it was in an old mining village, my coal mining village, that was very, very much based around if you weren't born and bred in the area, you didn't fit in, so first of all, I think fit into the village very well. But the profitability in the pub trade is is very hard, especially if the pub, if the building is owned by a brewery and you've got to buy your beer direct from the brewery, it reduces the profit margins. And I just think everything that could go wrong in that 12 month did go wrong. We had staff stealing offers. We had a couple of sabotages to the pub, a couple of really big bills that wasn't expected, equipment going wrong and equipment failing, and yeah, the costs just spiraled out of control. Michael Hingson  44:38 Just a lot of lack of research, Jeff Brown  44:41 yeah, yeah, yeah, Michael Hingson  44:42 and I would suspect that you would say that because of that, and because you realized all that, you learned. Jeff Brown  44:50 I learned, yeah, yeah, I, I totally learned, and I think you know that I, I, I fell in love with the idea of it. I fell in love with the building, and probably, probably didn't research it. And also, you know, yeah, I was great at marketing. I was great at business, but I'd never run a pub before. And yeah, it was probably a bit of a. I'd probably sort of trying to run before I could walk. In that, you know, might have been better off going and working for somebody else and being a manager or working in a bar. And you know, the the day I opened the pub, I'd never even pulled a pint before. Never stood behind a bar and served served a drink. So, Michael Hingson  45:28 yeah, and that's that's an art in of itself. Jeff Brown  45:32 Yeah, yeah, that's right. Michael Hingson  45:34 I used to when I lived in New Jersey and worked in New York. I used to go to a restaurant called Virgil's Real Barbecue, best barbecue I think in the country, and so if you're ever in New York, it's Virgil's. Anyway, they had opened a facility in Las Vegas. Also, they opened a restaurant in Las Vegas, and so last week when I was at the Consumer Electronics Show, I went there, and one of the things I had heard early on when they I heard about them opening the restaurant several years ago, was that the people who opened the restaurant before they could open it had to go spend six months in New York at the original Virgil's, learning everything about it, so that they could make this restaurant and the food be the same as as what they experienced, because they wanted Virgil's to be the same in both places, and they did. And I can say that, from my perspective, at least, they did a really great job, and they learned from that, which was exactly what you wanted for the people in Las Vegas to do, and they survived the pandemic, and it's still open. So when you're in Las Vegas next time, Jeff Brown  46:47 yeah, I'm there next week. So yeah, I'll have to Virgil's. Yeah, I'll check it out. Michael Hingson  46:52 Virgil's real barbecue, best ribs in the country. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it, everybody. Well, that's cool. So. So, do you believe that things happen for a reason? I mean, a lot has happened, and of course, the pub closed and and all that. Do you believe that things happen for a reason? Jeff Brown  47:13 I do, and and you know now I I think one of the things as well when you get to that point where you you don't believe there's there's there's any way out, and and you know you you get that alone, you get depressed, but you you feel that you've got to take your own life. You are right at the very bottom. I think for you to go to the very bottom and then come back up again, it changes your mindset about stuff. And I I never get stressed. I am a very, very chilled out person. If something goes wrong now or something fails, I just go. Well, it's happened for a reason. Maybe something better is around the corner. Maybe it's the universe trying to direct me in a in a different path. You know, and and I think the less you live, the more you live by that mindset, the more it opens you up to other opportunities. Yeah, keeps you living it. You know, you're not living in the past; you're living in the future. It it was for the first six months coming up here 11 years ago. It was hard to move away from that failure in my mind. I kept playing it over and over again, but you know, playing it over and over again wasn't going to make that failure with the pub any different. The outcome had happened, and what I needed to do was focus on the future, get back together and get my myself back together, both mentally and also establish a new business and a new way of life. And that in itself was a a massive learning curve, but for the better. Michael Hingson  48:44 Well, and and the reality is, it it certainly has made a big difference in your life. And the fact is that, again, it goes back to failure isn't the end all, and failure is is probably the wrong way to put it. It's a learning experience, and I think that it's so important to do that. I am like you. I refuse to feel stress. I've been through too many experiences in my life that that caused stress, and I've learned that there are always ways to to deal with things, and so it's important to not let the stress overwhelm you. I wrote a book that was published in 2024 called "Live Like a Guide Dog: True Stories from a Blind Man and His Dogs About Being Brave, Overcoming Adversity, and Moving Forward in Faith. And moving forward in faith is part of it, but the whole issue is we focus on our lives on so many things. We think we need to control everything, and the reality is, we only control probably much less than 10% of all the things that we experience, but we worry about 100% of everything, and that doesn't help. And so, it builds up so much fear and causes so much stress. And if we would just focus on the things over which we really can control, we would be much better off. Jeff Brown  49:59 Saying that, you know, after leaving the pub, because my mindset was very, very delicate, and I had to build my my mental health back up, I decided to stop watching the news. So I used to used to get up and go downstairs and put the news on TV and have my morning coffee and and listen to all this negativity, all this drama, every single morning, which I've done for probably 40, you know, well, at least 30-five years, and and that was it. I've never watched the news since. I don't watch any live TV. I don't watch the news. People say, "Well, how do you manage? So, well, somebody will tell me something, but most of the time, half the stuff that people get worried about never actually happens. And if it does happen, quite often there's nothing you can do about it because it's the other side of the world. Michael Hingson  50:53 Well, even if it's in England, you don't have control over it, so why worry about it? Now, I watch I watch the news, but I do it because I want to get the information. But I won't worry about it. And there's so much that happens. But I feel that that at least there is information to be gained by watching the news. But what I had to learn somewhere along the line is don't take it personally because you don't have any control over it. And there are so many things that that go on, but the the trick is not to let things you don't have any control over really affect you to the point where you get nervous and stressful again. Jeff Brown  51:34 Yeah, yeah, and I think that you know the the same thing can be put into social media. You know, people say social media is negative. Social media is dangerous, and it depends how you react to it and what you engage on. You know, in my own social media, I follow a lot of photographers, a lot of people who talk about adventures and motorcycle rides and travel and nature. So my news feed is filled with a lot of positive stuff. And if if I see something negative or see something sensationalist, what I do is I don't unfriend that person. I just unfollow them, so I don't see their content again. Michael Hingson  52:09 Yeah. Jeff Brown  52:10 But from from the plus side, you know, social media has bought me more opportunity than anything else, and and effectively for free. And I've traveled traveled a lot because of my work. I have over 100,000 followers across my my social media platforms, and social media brings me customers, brings me clients. It helps me sell books, so there is a lot of positivity to it. I suppose it. The negative is only if you engage in the negative, then you will you'll find the the negative aspect. Michael Hingson  52:40 Yeah. Well, and the reality is that again, it's it's how you approach life, and you've clearly learned a lot about how to approach life in a much more positive way. You've developed, well, we'll call it an unstoppable mindset. You've developed a mindset that allows you to go through life and do the things that you need to do, and focus on the things that you can, and you leave the rest of it alone. Jeff Brown  53:06 Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. Michael Hingson  53:08 Which which makes a lot of sense. Well, for you, you you talked earlier about the fact that you have dyslexia, and you've been with dyslexia for most of your life, or maybe all of your life. It's interesting. I've talked to so many people who didn't know that they had dyslexia when they were in school and so on, and experienced a lot of the same frustrations and kinds of experiences that that you've experienced. And somewhere along the line, they finally discovered that they they had dyslexia. How did that when you when you finally realized that? What did that do for you? How did how did that really affect you? Jeff Brown  53:52 Well, funny enough, I I can remember a moment where I must have been about eight year old, where a teacher and you know, back in the 70s, teachers weren't as kind, weren't as kind to to schoolchildren as they are now. You know, and and this this teacher singled me out in front of the class and and told me that I was stupid and I wouldn't amount to anything because I kept struggling with this reading and my numbers. And at the time, I I was I was chubby. I had ginger hair, so I didn't have a I didn't have a lot going for us in in the popularity front, and also being you know the the stupid one in the class. So I found it really negative, and I found it really really personal because I didn't realize that I was dyslexic because nobody knew what dyslexia was now, and when I got to my mid 30s, and I went to train to go into the work with the intelligence services and be an image analyst, I had to redo my English and maths all level qualifications that I should have passed at school, but obviously I didn't. I had to do them through the military, and that was when I found out I was dyslexic, and I didn't actually know what dyslexia was until until I made up on it, and then it all made sense. You know why why I'd struggled for so long. I have my own workarounds. I know what my I know what my what my issues are. I mean, now with with with my work, there's so much out there that helps you as a dyslexic. You know, you you have you have spell checker, you have read aloud where you might not be able to see see it. You know, so quite often I'll do a social media post, and I'll I'll get Word document to read it out aloud so I can hear it. But if I if I if I read it back, I can't see the mistakes I've made because my mind doesn't process that. I know when I write a number down, I probably write write it down the wrong way. So if somebody gives me a phone number and I phone it and it's dead, I just change some of the digits around and figure Michael Hingson  55:58 it out. Do you agree? Do you use technology like Dragon, naturally speaking, to dictate? Jeff Brown  56:04 I tend, I tend to. So I started using only in the past six months. I was quite, I was quite sort of against AI, and well, not against it, but everybody was jumping on the chat, ChatGPT bandwagon, and I always tend to do something different than everybody else does. Six months ago, I jumped on a piece of software called Claude, and because I've because I've written five books now, I've written four business books, and I've written a travel book. I also had a lot of content to give to Claude to feed Claude, and then I had transcripts from my YouTube channel, and and then I gave them some do's and don'ts about you know tone of voice and language, and you know I would never say things like this, I would never say things like that. Told them that you know don't be spelling color without a U. Don't put a Z in sympathize because not American English. It's English, English, and the funny thing is, like over the over the past few months, he's he's pretty much replicated my tone of voice, so I can get Claude to write me a social media post, and then I I just tweak it slightly, and I'll make some changes, and then when I've written that social media post, I give it back to Claude and say, can you note? Can you identify the changes that I've made from what you've originally made, Michael Hingson  57:24 right? Jeff Brown  57:25 And take them on board for the next one, and then you give a summary of the changes. And it's yeah, it's it's it's quite impressive. It's quite scary as well because he he says things like, "Am I becoming more Jeff? Yeah, yeah, you are a bit. Michael Hingson  57:42 Well, the other thing is there are programs and technologies, as I mentioned, like Dragon, which is a a technology that you can get where you dictate, and it recognizes your voice, and it will then convert what you say directly into digitized form, which is pretty cool. I use Dragon when I write a fair amount, and and so that that goes back far earlier than AI. Although I'm sure that there are AI, there are AI components to Dragon naturally speaking today. But it's a it's a great program, and it makes writing a lot easier. So rather than typing on a keyboard, I'm speaking, and it is essentially taking what I write, and it just completely digitizes it by recognizing my voice and then putting it out in in in a digital form for me. I can use it with Microsoft Word and other things like that, Jeff Brown  58:41 yeah. And then do then do you listen back to that and then give edits on on what has been on what is being done? Michael Hingson  58:49 Yeah, I can. I just go back and read the word doc, and but it's but it literally is is transcription of what I say, so I can then go back and say, okay, let's fix this, or everything is fine, and I can go even go back and figure out what's misspelled if there are things that it misrecognized. But it works pretty well. Jeff Brown  59:12 Yeah, tech technology is is is fantastic. It's also got it's it's it's I suppose worrying sides for creative people, where there's a lot, a lot of creatives that potentially AI could could really damage their careers going forward. So it's it's interesting to see which direction it's taken. You know, work with it, but then also be aware of it. Michael Hingson  59:40 Yeah. Well, you still need to take control. Jeff Brown  59:43 Yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson  59:45 So, what's the most unusual or interesting country that you've ever visited since you do so much traveling? Jeff Brown  59:52 I've been to North Korea. So, 2019 I went to North Korea for New. New Year's Eve to celebrate New Year in in Pyongyang Square with another 100,000 North Koreans. There was only 12 Western tourists in Pyongyang at the time, and we were there for 10 days. So yes, I've I've done North Korea, which it took a bit getting into getting into North Korea. It's not as easy as just you can't go on and book a holiday. He can't choose a hotel. It all has to be done through a third-party agent, and it took about six months to get the whole thing to together. But it was-it was very interesting. It was a completely different than every anything I'd ever experienced before, and it's also supposed to be one of the safest countries you can travel to because you you're followed by the North Korean secret police everywhere you go, even inside buildings, when you're in restaurants, when you're in bars. That nothing could ever happen to you, but the North Korean people would never dare to come up and speak to you anyway, you know. But the the thing with North Korea is everything is everything is orchestrated. Everything is set for you alive and there in advance, so you only ever see what they want you to see. You never see the other side of North Korea. I've also been to Chernobyl, where the the last was that was absolutely fascinating, and last year I went to Transnistria, which is one of these countries that doesn't exist. It's not officially recognized by by the UN, and that was like stepping back into the 1980s Speaker 1  1:01:38 That was, Jeff Brown  1:01:39 but everywhere I've been, you know, I think that that's t

What if the future of higher education depends less on old systems and more on curiosity? I speak with John Frost, vice president of marketing and enrollment management at Doane University, about his path from basketball dreams and local news to student recruitment and educational leadership. John shares how storytelling, liberal arts education, strong relationships, and applied learning can turn natural talent into career skills. We also explore AI in education, college costs, financial aid, trade schools, and why higher education is changing rather than fading away. You will find a hopeful look at student success, lifelong learning, and the human support that helps people become unstoppable. Highlights: 04:58 - Why student opportunity matters more than campus image. 12:22 - How one conversation can change a student's future. 16:51 - Why respectful disagreement keeps curiosity alive. 24:55 - How applying knowledge creates real impact. 36:28 - Why AI should support learning, not replace it. 55:12 - How higher education will keep shaping future leaders. About the Guest: How one storyteller–turned–strategist is transforming the way America thinks about college. Meet JOHN FROST, the enrollment innovator on a mission to rebuild faith in higher education. As Vice President of Enrollment Management and Marketing at Doane University, a four-year public university, John is rewriting the playbook on how colleges attract, inspire, and serve the next generation of learners. Before he led campuses, John led with a camera, as a reporter, editor, and photojournalist covering real human stories that shaped communities. That same instinct for truth and connection now drives his work in education, where he helps institutions move beyond numbers and focus on what really matters: student purpose and success. With nearly two decades of experience across Metropolitan Community College, Southern Illinois University Carbondale, and Doane University, John has guided organizations through shifting markets, declining enrollments, and cultural change. His leadership has sparked bold conversations around student engagement, workforce readiness, and the evolving value of a college degree. John's voice bridges two worlds, media and academia, helping audiences understand not just why college is changing, but how it can thrive again. Ways to connect with John**:** - Facebook link: https://www.facebook.com/DoaneUniversity/ - Instagram link: https://www.instagram.com/doaneuniversity/ - LinkedIn link: linkedin.com/school/doane-university/ - X link: https://x.com/DoaneUniversity - YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/user/DoaneCollegeNE - Website link: https://www.doane.edu/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. Today we're going to have a lot of fun. Today we're going to talk to John Frost. John is an interesting kind of guy. He's a higher education strategist. He is the vice president of marketing and enrollment management at Doane University in Crete, Nebraska. And before we started, we were just talking about the weather. We're recording this on the 10th of March, and he said he's in the about 60. We're 60-eight, going up to 70-three here, so maybe spring is finally coming. We can hope. I remember once when we were still living in New Jersey. It was May of 2001. We thought the spring was here, and we got a bunch of snow one afternoon or one evening in New Jersey. Yeah. Well, the next morning, so where I I took the dogs out when we lived in New Jersey, we had to I had to actually walk down a hill, and the next morning, some of the snow started to melt, and that night the whole hillside was as slick as glass because the ice there the snow froze, so it was ice. John Frost  02:10 Oh my goodness! Michael Hingson  02:12 And so what I did was not walk down the hill. I went. I put my snow boots on, and I and I made it down once and came back up. I said I'm not doing that anymore. I had a long flex leash, and I put the long leash on each dog separately, and let them go down the hill. And I stayed at the top to make sure that they didn't slide. John Frost  02:30 It sounds, hey, I like that. It sounds like you're a great strategic person because you came up with a game plan to allow them to go down up and down the hill. Michael Hingson  02:39 Yeah, I certainly wasn't going to go down that hill with him anymore because that was too scary. John Frost  02:43 Yeah, that's dangerous. Michael Hingson  02:45 Well, John, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset. We're glad you're John Frost  02:49 here. Hey, I'm happy to be here, and thank you for allowing me to be on your platform and taking time out of your day. And I'm looking forward to the great discussion that we're going to have. Michael Hingson  02:57 Well, and taking the time out of your day, we appreciate that too. So it's it's 2o'clock there. So by the time we're done, it's going to be time for the afternoon coffee break. John Frost  03:06 Hey, hey, good call, great call. Michael Hingson  03:10 Well, tell us kind of about the early chon growing up. Yeah, that's fun to start there. John Frost  03:15 Yeah, that's a great question. So one of the things I always like to share with people is that when I was a young man, I wasn't planning to go to college to work at a college. That wasn't the game plan. If anything, just like a lot of young, especially young boys growing up in North Carolina, we want to grow up and play basketball. And I thought I was going to go to the NBA, and we all know the greatest basketball player of all time is Michael Jordan. He's from North Carolina, so we all dreamed of that dream. But you know, I played sports growing up. I was fortunate enough to to get an athletic scholarship to go to college, and went to college. Didn't really know exactly what I was going to do already. Well, I finished at Wayne State College, and got my bachelor's degree there. But you know, while I was there, I figured out like, okay, I'm not going to the NBA. What I'm going to do, and so somebody, somebody was like, hey, you know, John, you don't mind, you know, connecting with people, having conversations. You don't, you're not, you're not afraid to talk in public. Maybe you should think about going into broadcasting, and so that's what I started to study. And so I was fortunate enough to get a communications degree, and then I was from that point I went and worked in local news for about four years. So I was able to be a reporter and a photojournalist and an editor, and was able to connect with a lot of people and tell a lot of stories, but the unique thing about doing news is that the only opportunity you have with the story is just to share it. Right? You can't really impact it. And so, one of the things that I appreciate about higher education is that when I transitioned to higher education after four years in local news, I realized. I had the ability to impact the story, so it wasn't just about sharing the story of the individuals that I serve. It was about making their stories a little bit better through education, and so I started my career in higher education as a recruiter, worked my way up, worked at you know for profits and private schools and state schools, colleges and universities, and and now I'm fortunate enough to be the vice president at Doan University, and I've been here for about three years. So that's kind of like a little snapshot of my story. Michael Hingson  05:28 How long were you in broadcasting? John Frost  05:30 For about four years. About four years, Michael Hingson  05:33 sir. And then you went to the schools, huh? John Frost  05:35 Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Michael Hingson  05:36 Wow. So you went. So where did you where did you start, and what kind of colleges did you did you go to all over the country, or what? John Frost  05:46 Yeah. So what's funny is when I started my career in higher education, I started out as a recruiter, and I was working for a for-profit institution. And here's a unique thing: the school that I worked at was in a strip mall, so you could go to Sears and look at a lawnmower, and you can go to Verizon and get a phone, and you can go to the Slurpee shop and get you a slushie, and then you come talk to me about about college. And one of the things that taught me about working at a college in a strip mall was you really had to get to understand the students, and it wasn't about all the glitz and glamor that you may think about a traditional college. It was still about the opportunity. It was about the dream, and that's what I learned when I first started out as a recruiter: is being able to help somebody to make their dream into a reality and having those great conversations. Michael Hingson  06:38 How did you learn the art of storytelling? What what is it that that caused that to happen? Because it sounds like it's kind of natural for you, but did you learn it growing up or what? John Frost  06:49 Well, you know what? That's a great question. One of the things I like to share with people is the art of dialog, right? Just discussion, engagement, and growing up as a kid in North Carolina, we didn't have too much, but we always was able to run our mouths. Right, we was always able to talk. We was always able to talk about what we did or what we didn't do because, as you know, back in the day, we didn't have camera phones. We didn't. We didn't have all this technology that captured everything that we did. And so, when you would when you would you know get somebody's attention, you had to hold it. You couldn't just say, "Hey, I played basketball and it was fun. It would be like, "Hey, I played basketball and I did this move, and this guy tried to guard me, and I blocked the shot and I did this. Or even if you went down the street because your mom wanted you to go get a you know a gallon of milk or a carton of eggs, that was the story behind it because you got chased by a dog and and or whatever. So I think the the the art of storytelling is just something that's natural to the human spirit. But then also not just talking about your story, but being able to understand somebody else's and and being able to connect with them because if you talk to people long enough, you'll find a connection. Michael Hingson  08:02 Yeah, did did your parents encourage storytelling, or did they think about that at all? John Frost  08:07 You know, that's a great question. My dad was probably one of the greatest storytellers I ever met. He was, I mean, the stories that he would tell me about how he grew up, the things that he experienced. I mean, even though he may not had a photo, even though he may not have had like video, he can get you to where he was at, and you could and you could see it. I mean, my dad was a was a guy that could tell you a story, and he'll tell you about hey, because he grew up around a bakery, and he would tell you how the bread smelled. So no matter what the story meant, he would always start off well. You know, I grew up by a bakery, and this is what it smelled like. And and and you would get yourself to that point. And so I would say, if I if if my ability to tell the story, I would say I got that from my dad. Michael Hingson  08:54 Yeah. So it it was something that you learned. Now, are there other kids in your family, or just you? John Frost  09:00 No. So I'm fortunate enough to have. I'm the youngest out of four, so I have an older brother. I had an older sister, and I have another older sister. But unfortunately, she passed away probably like 16 years ago. So, yep. But so it's just three of us now. But but yeah, you know, I was the youngest, so I was the one that's always causing trouble. Michael Hingson  09:24 Well, gives you something to do in your free time. Yeah, exactly. Did did the other two also grow up to tell stories and and appreciate John Frost  09:35 it? Yeah, they was they grew up to tell stories. They couldn't tell them as good as I could, though. But no, my brother he he spent 25 years in the military in the Air Force, and was a Persian linguist, and so he has some really cool stories about his travels in the military. He still works for the military right now as a civilian, and my sister. She works in behavior science. She helps with social work and things like that. And my oldest sister, she helped run her own business before she passed away. Michael Hingson  10:10 Now you were in the military for 24 years. John Frost  10:12 No, my my brother. My brother was okay. I wasn't Michael Hingson  10:15 sure. Okay, great. Yeah, my brother. That makes more sense. Time. Yeah, yeah. No, John Frost  10:18 no. He he decided to take that route. I didn't. Michael Hingson  10:20 Cool. Well, but you're going to claim credit for being the best of the three in storytelling. John Frost  10:26 Absolutely. There you go. Michael Hingson  10:29 And and how would they react if they heard us talking about that? John Frost  10:32 It don't matter. They're not on the call, so it's all good. Michael Hingson  10:37 Good point. Can't can't argue with that. So you. you, so you were in broadcasting for four years, and then you went into to different things in higher education. Why did you end up going into higher education? You know, why didn't you continue in broadcasting, or what happened? John Frost  10:57 Well, you know, I love broadcasting. Don't get me wrong, and it was it was. But I always say broadcasting is a is a very unique career path. You always running and gunning, and I worked here in Lincoln, Nebraska. So you know you doing snow stories, you doing Husker football, you doing things about the budget, things about whatever the government the governor is saying, and at some point, I know for me personally, it was a guy that I ran into who who done what I did when I was in news for 30 years, and one of the things that he had shared with me was don't get jaded, don't go to a story and it's just another story. Don't forget the the human approach. Don't forget the people that you're talking about. And he said the mistake that he made was again he did this for 30 years. He said he he got he stayed in the business too long, that it was just another day. It was just a job. And when he shared it with me, that made me have a lot of time for reflection and thinking about okay, so what is it that I really want to do? Even though I love the broadcasting field, it was always on the go, which I loved to do. I said, "Is there something else for me to to do? And I didn't know anything about higher education, you know. To be honest with you, sir, I did not. Other than I went to college, that's about good as it was. I didn't understand the business. Yeah, yeah. I didn't know the business of higher education and things like that. But anyway, you know, I remember back in the day, I just was curious and looking at some different options, and I happened to apply for a recruiter job. And when I went in for the interview, they said, "Hey, you know, your job is to have conversations with people and try to get them enrolled in school. I was like, "Well, that's simple enough. I don't have to be out in the cold, you know, covering snow stories anymore. And I'm from North Carolina, so I don't have to worry about covering Husker football no more. And then, you know, I get to really make an impact. So that's all it was. It was just, you know, I was still a young man. I was still looking to find my way, and I was fortunate to find higher education. Michael Hingson  13:04 So, when you did recruiting, what what's a favorite story and success that you had at recruiting? John Frost  13:10 Oh, thank you! I love when people ask me this question. So, I always share in my colleague Andrew's in the room with me, helping me do this podcast, and he's probably heard this story like 13,000 times, but you know, Michael, the best story that I like to share is the story when I was a first, and I started out as a recruiter, not really knowing what I was doing. But I had a conversation with a young lady. She was a single mom, and she was a single mom, and we went through the whole process of talking about her goals and her dreams and how we can help, but then as we was kind of finishing up, you know, kind of getting towards the end of the process of the conversation, started getting teary-eyed, and so my first thing is like, oh my goodness, what's going on? Why is she getting teary-eyed? Like, what did I say? What did I do wrong? And then you know, I paused there, and she looked at me, and she said, "You know, you're the first person ever tell me that I can accomplish this goal. You're the first person ever tell me I can do this. And right then and there, sir, that's when I realized what the opportunity I had in front of me is that she went on to get her degree and went and get a master's degree, but with whatever was going on in her life, that was a that was a game changer, and I was happy and fortunate enough to be a part of that. And so that's when I realized what I get to do for recruitment, and I never forgot about that. And and when people ask about why we're successful in doing the things that we're doing, I think you never forget that that it's not just a job. It's an honor. It's a privilege to get to change people's lives through education. Michael Hingson  14:47 You know, going back to what your your friend in the the media for 30 years said, I I agree with that. I have been a speaker now for 24 years, and my belief is it's it's. Never about me. It's about what I can do to be involved and enhance what goes on at an event where I'm invited to come and speak. And I I spend time asking the event organizers what kind of messaging do you want? What can I do? How can I best be of of help to you in making this event as successful as possible because I know there are so many speakers who think it's all about them and and it's not it's it certainly isn't for me so I hear what you say about him saying don't ever let yourself get jaded because that I can see how it could happen, but but I've always just believed that's that's not the way to go. You know, we've got a lot of things going on in the media, and in in our country today, and I talk to so many people who say I don't even watch the news anymore because it just upsets me and so on, and and I say, look, one of my basic philosophies is: don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on what you can. That doesn't mean you're not aware of the other stuff going on, but you don't have to let it affect you because you're not going to be in a position to really control it. Actually, you can once every four years, and that's at the ballot box. But John Frost  16:16 yeah, Michael Hingson  16:17 but but the bottom line is, you can you can still watch the news, but you can choose not to let it affect you and drive you crazy, and and I think that's so important. And you know, all of the all of the presidents lately have all done things that were productive, and they've done things that weren't productive. And you know, we can't. I I I love to say I'm an equal opportunity abuser, which is why we don't talk about politics much on the podcast. But you know I remember so much when the when Barack Obama was about to be inaugurated as president, and I was watching the Letterman show one night, and and Letterman was bemoaning the fact that it's going to get boring around here. We're not going to have a president to pick on anymore. We got a good guy coming in, so you know you knew where he stood. But you know we can't we can't tell the jokes. Well, you know that didn't last very long, but that's okay. But we have control over what we let affect us. It doesn't mean that we don't need to be aware, but we can control whether we allow it to affect us and bother us or not. And I think that's part of the whole art of conversation because we're in a world where people don't want to talk to each other. If you don't believe what I believe, then you're wrong, and and that's just not the way to do John Frost  17:39 it. No, I agree 100% and that and that's one of the things I like to tell people about the how important a college campus is. It's one of the few places still on the planet and in our country where you can agree to disagree, and it's okay. It's called class, right? Yeah. And so, and and you can have different conversations. You can you can share different perspective. The one thing about I think sometimes when we leave college that we forget is that we forget the ability to still be curious, right, and still want to learn and still want to understand. It's not about being right; it's about getting it right. And so I think that's one of the most powerful things that happens on a college campus is that you still are somewhat not forced, but you encourage to engage with people from different walks of life for different perspectives and things like that. So, really good point, and I think it just feeds into what we do here on a college campus. Michael Hingson  18:36 Do you find that that's true across colleges that people are still able to to participate in the art of conversation? John Frost  18:44 Yes, one of the things that one of the things that I've been fortunate enough to do, especially in my role, and I've done it at every school that I worked at, is that I like to sit in the classroom. I like to go to the classes to see what's going on, and I'm telling you, and it never fails. I mean, there's a lot of opinions and thoughts about the future and about the current generation and the future generations, but man, their thought patterns, their ability to kind of have different discussions and conversations. I mean, it's 10 times better than it was when I was that age because they do have access to so much information, so they they can construct a really great argument. One of the things that you see in the classroom is them being able to know how to learn how to deal with disagreement, and so that's been taking place. But yeah, I think the art of conversation is still profound, and I think it's still being encouraged in our classrooms by our faculty members. Michael Hingson  19:44 Isn't it great when you're in a classroom or you're either involved or observing a conversation, and someone just comes up with something incredibly-and I don't mean this in a bad way-but unusual or profound that you never thought of, and maybe the other people hadn't thought of. That's the whole issue with thought patterns, and people just come up with unique things that make you go off in different directions. John Frost  20:07 Yes, yes, it's a beautiful thing. Michael Hingson  20:09 Fun, yeah, John Frost  20:10 fun. It's a beautiful thing. That's what I say. It's a beautiful mind, right? I mean, it's it's that's what we should be doing, right? I always say we're not here to to do this on our own. We're here to to do it together in different ways by conversation, by engagement, by agreeing to disagreeing. Sometimes when somebody disagrees with you, it challenges you to think a little different to make sure what you're saying is: Do you really believe that, or you just saying what you think you know, right? And so I think it's a beautiful thing, Michael Hingson  20:40 and I think it's great when professors contribute to that and make you think in different directions, and you don't even need to know what what they actually think about whatever. Although I'm sure that that usually comes out as as time goes by. But still, if they make people think, then that's a good thing. John Frost  20:59 Yes, yes, Michael Hingson  21:01 it's so important to do, and I think it's important that that all of us do that. I know I had an academic advisor who spent lots of time with me. He was the dean of physical sciences, actually. So I'm not quite sure why I got Dr. Rhinos. He was the discoverer of the neutrino, but I did, and and he he and I had a lot of interesting conversations, and I hope I challenged him too. But he certainly challenged me in terms of some of the ways that that I thought about things, and sometimes we agreed, and sometimes we didn't necessarily agree. But what a what a neat guy, and and it's so great to have people that that basically are in their own way philosophers in whatever they do. John Frost  21:47 Absolutely. Speaker 1  21:51 If you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show, your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  22:24 So, what did you do after recruiting? How long did you recruit, and what did you do after that? John Frost  22:30 Well, I mean, I was fortunate enough to to always get promoted and move up, but I'm always recruiting. I always tell people I'm always selling because we're always selling the opportunity of education. I don't, whatever role that I may have, if it's a director or if it's a assistant director or vice president, I feel like the most important role that I have is being an educational advocate. At the end of the day, I know a lot of people have their opinions about higher education or about education in general, but the one thing that I always challenge them with is that education is one of the still one of the real resources that still can change people's lives. It's it's still one of those things. People say, "Well, well, why should I do this and why should I do that? Because it works. You're looking at it. If I mean, if it wasn't for higher education, I probably wouldn't be here. I don't know what I would have done, but because of higher education, just like I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, it provoked me to think differently about my own skill set beyond just athletics. It was about some of those soft skills, and and hey, John, you naturally don't mind conversating with people and and and talking. Like I didn't know you can get paid to talk. You know what I mean? Like I didn't know that was an option. That wasn't on the bingo card. So, but if it wasn't for education and having those conversations, as we as we talked about, I wouldn't have known that that was an option. And so, at the end of the day, I mean, I'm just a country kid from East Winston, North Carolina, who wanted to be a basketball player. Instead, I turned out to be a guy that's an educational advocate that probably did more in this role than I ever would have done by shooting a basketball. Michael Hingson  24:15 Couldn't get Michael Jordan to come and give you a few pointers, huh? John Frost  24:18 Nah, he he didn't have time for me. You know, maybe he can do that to my sons or somebody, but now he ain't have time for me. Michael Hingson  24:24 Well, you know, that's that's okay. You could have always you could have always gone off and tried to get Magic Johnson or Larry Bird. John Frost  24:31 Yeah, that's true. That's true. But I'm a Mike guy. I'm a Mike guy. Michael Hingson  24:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah, and whatever. That's that that works well. So you you've always been promoted. You said you've been at Doane for three years. Where were you before that? John Frost  24:47 Yeah, so I was fortunate enough to work at College of St. Mary, which is the the undergrad program was for all females, and the graduate program was inclusive of everybody. So I worked there for a few years, and then before. There, I was at Southern Illinois University in Carbondale, in Illinois, and that was a great experience as well. And then several other places, like I said, I worked in community colleges, and and then also some private schools throughout the Midwest. And so, been a lot of different places, learned a lot. Every school is different, but they also the same. That's why I tell people because they're the same because they all are trying to do the same things and trying to help people get their educational credentials and opportunities. But they're different in how they go about it. They all have their own character. They all have their features and benefits, and they all have all have their own unique stories. And so, again, it it it ties into our discussion about stories because every person that walks one of those university halls are going to be able to have be part of that overall story of that university. Michael Hingson  26:01 I like one of the things that you said. You learned a lot. You you are always learning, and I think that's so important because the reality is you never know when a new nugget of knowledge will come and be profound and hit you right in the head, and you take it and run with it. But learning a lot is so important. John Frost  26:18 Yes, yes, and and I will piggyback on that is, you know, and something that I try to tell the people I serve and also my kids, you know, information is power. It's power, but information with application allows you to have impact, and so it's great to have the information, but if you're not applying it, then it's not going to be useful, right? Yeah. So even though we all are learners, once you learn something, the question would be, how will you use it moving forward? Michael Hingson  26:49 Yeah, and that's and that's an important part of it. It isn't enough to let it build up inside of you and have all this information if you're not doing something with it. What good John Frost  26:58 is it? Absolutely. Michael Hingson  27:00 And and information and knowledge changes over times. Things that maybe 30 and 40 years ago people studied are so commonplace today because there's so many new things that you know we we evolve. John Frost  27:14 Yes, yes. I always tell people, you know, 40 years ago they used to smoke in airplanes, right? Yeah. At some point, somebody figured out that wasn't a good idea because they got new information. Right. So I agree 100% to what you said. Michael Hingson  27:30 I think one of my best best examples of information is for years the movie Airplane wasn't shown on airplanes, and I flew on a flight once, and then they showed it. I was going, I can't believe it, but they're showing airplane on an airplane. That was great things people do, but but yeah, I hear what you're saying. Yeah, for for years people smoked on airplanes. They had a non-smoking section where I always sat, but still, it's great that there's not smoking. Although they still haven't totally done away with liquor on airplanes, and I've I've seen some people who've gotten pretty exposed to having a number of drinks on an airplane. I was on a flight with one guy. It was a morning flight, actually. We're flying from Ontario to Dallas, and I had gotten upgraded, so I was sitting next to this guy. He ordered a double vodka tonic, and he had nine of them. But by the time we got to Dallas, John Frost  28:26 oh wow! Michael Hingson  28:27 And I'm oh wow, my gosh! I don't know how he got off the plane, but he did. But I'm just, I guess the body adjusts. But I didn't even have one, you know. I'm whatever. Oh John Frost  28:39 my goodness! He must. He must be either either really excited or really nervous, one of the two. Michael Hingson  28:43 I don't know, one of those something, but it was pretty fascinating because he just kept ordering them, and and the other part about it was they kept bringing them. So, wow, yeah, ah, well, the world is a funny place. John Frost  28:58 It is. Michael Hingson  28:58 So tell me a little bit about Doane College, and and I know it's a liberal arts college. So tell me about that. But tell me about Doane. John Frost  29:05 Yeah, Doane University. Doane University. Michael Hingson  29:08 I said college. I'm sorry. John Frost  29:09 No, no worries, no worries. We've been around for 153 years. You don't. You don't Michael Hingson  29:14 sound that old. John Frost  29:15 That's a good one. And we have undergraduate programs. Have about 30-five undergraduate programs. Education was what was built on, was built on again educating the community, educating future leaders, and that's one of the things with our president of the university is that we build leaders. That's one of our mantras that we that we stand on. At the same time, we have opportunities for online, in person, hybrid. So we have a lot of different modalities. We also have graduate programs within business and education, leadership. In addition to that, we have Open Learning Academy. Which that that platform is built for students that may even go to other schools that are looking to take additional courses to get into medical school or some type of additional schooling, but they may not have the the right classes or skills yet, so they take those courses with Open Learning Academy, and we have a lot of non degree seeking opportunities, certifications. So Doane is just is one of those schools that's a leader in building the future. It's a leader in trying to think differently. It's it's a organization that's that's embracing the things that are changing in our society. We don't run from those things. We run we don't run from them. We run to them because we want to be the the leaders in making the world a better place, but also being able to solve problems, be able to have innovation and enhancement to the human experience, and that's what we do. So I can go on and on, but Darwin University is a wonderful place. We have the Crete campus here, which is our main campus, and then we also have class offerings in Lincoln, Nebraska, and also in the Omaha metro area. And then, as I mentioned, online. Michael Hingson  31:12 Where is Crete? John Frost  31:14 Crete is about 40-five minutes away from the state capital of Lincoln, Nebraska. Lincoln. Michael Hingson  31:19 Okay. John Frost  31:20 Yep, and it's about an hour away from the the largest city in Nebraska of Omaha. So that's where it's about at. So it's it's more on the eastern side of the state, but it's a great place to come and and get your education. Michael Hingson  31:35 So it's a liberal arts college. What does that mean exactly? John Frost  31:39 Oh, that's a great question. So the one of the things about the liberal arts is that it's a holistic view of the human experience, right? It's not just hey, I'm learning something just to learn it. It's not just focus on a physical or medical perspective. It's a overall leader, I would say, human experience, so you're not just going to come to school and focus on just your program. You're going to come to school here and get an education in the classroom and outside of the classroom. You're going to study some different things. You're going to do some worldly things. It's going to be hands-on. So the liberal arts is really big because we feel like that's what's missing. I mean, unfortunately, in higher education, sometimes people just want to get the degree and go on with their lives. We want to make sure you understand the degree that you have and how you can utilize it in a multiple of ways beyond just whatever the whatever the program was that you got your degree in. Michael Hingson  32:39 I had the pleasure last September 11th of speaking at the Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts, and I had never actually heard of MCLA, but until they they reached out to me, but it was it was kind of fun and and very enjoyable. And people asked really good, well-rounded questions when we had some Q and A sessions, which I always really appreciate. It's it's good to really get people who are are thinking, and so it was a lot of fun. John Frost  33:06 Awesome, yeah, that sounds great. Michael Hingson  33:08 Yeah, they wanted to do something around September 11th, and we did. So John Frost  33:13 yes, Michael Hingson  33:13 I I can't complain about that at all. It was um a it was a little bit of a challenge to get to, because it was the the nearest airport is Albany, and it was like, well, about an well an hour hour and 20 minutes away. But but we got there, so it worked out. So I I but I enjoy the the whole concept of what liberal arts colleges are about. I think it's important to deal with your degree, but I think it's important to also, as as you say, get a more rounded understanding and learn how to use the degree and learn to use the skills that you get. John Frost  33:48 Absolutely, absolutely. Michael Hingson  33:51 Which I think is so. What sets Doane apart? What makes Doane unique? Maybe from a lot of other places. John Frost  33:58 You know, I get that question a lot of what separates Don, and I think it's it's beholden to the individual that I'm talking to. The one thing about Don is I think that separates us from everybody else. It's not about telling somebody what they can't do. It's about figuring out how they can do it, and that's what Don does with us being a small liberal arts college. We're very hands-on, and I know a lot of colleges say that, but we're about relationships. We're not about being order takers. We're about being dream makers, and that's just as simple as I can make it. If you come to Doane University, you're not just coming just to go through the process and and go through the ups and downs of being a college student. We're trying to make sure that you understand what it is that. Because here's the thing: majority of the students that start sometimes don't know exactly what they want to do. I mean, we have a lot of students that start college and they're undecided, and so what. We like to make sure that we do is build that relationship, understand that particular student, and then come up with a game plan to get them to where they want to be. And I feel like that's what we do. We're not just going to say, "Hey, I'm interested in criminal justice, or "I'm interested in nursing, or "and we just say you go, yeah, go ahead. We have that good luck. God bless. We're going to say, hey, you know what? Tell me more about that. Why are you interested in in nursing? And again, one of the things I used to always use when people say they're interested in nursing, I'll ask these three questions. I ask these three questions. First question: Are you afraid of blood? Right. Michael Hingson  35:35 Good point. John Frost  35:36 Second question: What would you do if I vomited right now? Would you be the person that run, or would you be the person that help? And the last question: How do you feel being on your feet for 12 hours a day? Michael Hingson  35:46 Yeah, John Frost  35:47 right. So by the time I get through those questions, I kind of have a good understanding exactly if they are want to be a nurse or not. But then the follow-up question, which is the most important question, Michael, is tell me why do you want to be a nurse? Well, I want to help people, and so, granted, sometimes just like I mentioned about my story, sometimes you're limited on what your options are. So even though somebody wanted to be a nurse because they want to help people, but they may not be a good fit. However, we can show them, hey, there's a variety of ways that you can help people. It may not be nursing, but here's some other options that we can look into, and that's what separate us. That's what we do. We have a conversation, and we don't rush that conversation. It's just like what we're doing right now. We get to know each other, and we get to help. For by the time they walk across that stage, they're excited about that degree they have in their hand. Michael Hingson  36:37 That's great. I every every year I I just always make it a habit to get a physical, and there usually blood draws as part of it. And it's so fun to go in and when I sit down and they're getting the needle and everything ready to do the blood test, I say, now I just have to ask, what are you going to do if I can't stand the sight of blood? I've had a couple who fall into the trap, and then they finally figure out. Oh, this guy's blind. What's he talking about? Oh gosh. But you know, I guess I'd probably be a good nurse. I can I can answer those three questions. But you know, things things happen, and you know, you got to do what you got to do. Well, absolutely. So right now, higher education, like I think so many things are, is going through some some major changes. We're seeing so many technological advances. So higher education is being challenged to adapt faster because so many things are happening. We haven't even talked about AI, but how is Doane responding to all the the new and sometimes innovative ways of of dealing with education and and helping students progress. John Frost  37:51 Yeah, it's just like I mentioned. We embracing all the new changes. I mean, one of the things that Doan is doing is really embracing AI, looking out, looking at how do you teach the future about AI? How do you utilize it? How do you harness it in a way that it makes it something that it's a resource? It's not a shortcut, and and and use it as a prompt to again, as we talked about earlier, to to create curiosity, and it's just like I mentioned before, you know, yeah. There's conversations about higher education, but as I mentioned, I would put higher education up against any other industry about how it changed society. Like I said, it works; it changes people's lives. You have people that come from all over the world to get a college education, right? Because they know it's something that they need to have to be able to move forward in their life, and also to amplify and enhance their abilities that they have. The one thing that I say about college is that it takes those natural talents and make it into a marketable skill set, and so that's what we're doing with the rhetoric and the conversation about higher education, is it worth it? Should people still do it? The one thing that I've always said is like maybe you may not be the student that starts college right out of high school, but at some point in time, you're going to have to get some additional training. At some point in time you're going to have to go get some additional post-secondary education just to be able to progress in life, because as we all said, you know, with AI, different things with technology, different ways of thoughts, being able to work with different people-that that's what a college does, and and that's what you are investing in. That's probably going to be one of the best investments that you're going to have in your life. Michael Hingson  39:40 Do you find that there are some people who still do, or who just do treat AI as as a shortcut and try to use it to circumvent doing the real work that they need to do? John Frost  39:53 Absolutely, but I think that tells more about that person than AI. Yeah. Right. Michael Hingson  39:57 Oh, I agree. I agree. One of one of. My favorite comments about AI is back in I think it was 2022 around Christmas time. I was at a family gathering and there were a couple people there who were complaining about AI, and then teachers are so frustrated because students just write their papers using AI and you don't know that they're learning anything and. and I I popped up and I said, "You're approaching this all wrong. Let if a student wants to use AI to write their paper, let them write their paper. But what the teacher should do is collect all the papers and then take one period and call each student up to the front of the class, right in front of everybody, and give them a minute to defend their paper. John Frost  40:44 Yes, without the paper, Michael Hingson  40:46 you know either they know it or they don't, and you're going to find out very quickly who really did the work and and who didn't, and people who didn't are going to catch on pretty quickly that that doesn't work. John Frost  40:57 Yes, and isn't it funny that when you think about education, when you think about the philosophers from back in the day, you know you had some philosophers who thought writing was the wrong thing to do, right? Because they they they they would get up and just have these lone soliloquies about what they know and and challenge things. So I think it's funny that with AI allowing us to write, it's going to make us be more verbal and have to articulate our stance and perspectives on things a little bit more. So I think it's fascinating how there's a full circle approach because when you first start thinking about education and those things, it wasn't about writing long solitarys about things. It was about being able to get up and and articulate it, and so I think to your point, I think that's what is going to somewhat force us to do is people be able to get up and to defend what they're sharing with other people. Michael Hingson  41:54 Yeah, and if they're and if they're smart, they'll do it right. Yes, I've I've used AI in writing articles. I'll I'll even ask it several times to write an article about something, and then I read through them. And when I find an idea or something that I think is great, I'll incorporate it into what I write Speaker 2  42:11 to to Michael Hingson  42:12 create the article. Well, I think AI is a great tool as far as it goes, but it is a tool. Yes, and it's never going to be as smart as I am, John Frost  42:21 no, and I don't mean Michael Hingson  42:22 that in an egotistical way. It just isn't. John Frost  42:24 No, and AI can only do what we teach it, right? Michael Hingson  42:27 Right. John Frost  42:27 I mean that's the thing. And and what's fascinating is that if you look at electricity, electricity was criticized when it first came out. You know what is this going to do? When you looked at the news, well, there was that Michael Hingson  42:39 that dumb guy who sent his kite up in the air and finally shocked himself. Yeah, exactly, John Frost  42:43 Benjamin Franklin. Yeah, so I mean, throughout history, every new thing has been challenged, and it has been told that it was the beginning of the end of the world. And but you know, 1000s years later, we're still here. Michael Hingson  42:55 Yeah, but as we all know, the Earth is flat. There is still a flat Earth society out there, and they come up with pretty creative things to try to convince people the world is flat. So there you go. Yes. Ah, well, but you know, I think it's a great tool, and people will find ways to use it and use it effectively, and that's what should happen. What about higher education in general, why is, to some degree, it declining, and how do we deal with that? John Frost  43:26 And that's a great question. I'm not sure when people say that. I'm not sure if higher education is declining. I just think people are, aren't doing the normal trend of just coming to higher education straight out of high school. I think that's where the. I think most people are doing education. They're just doing it a different way. I mean, are people going to trade schools? Yes, but everybody's not going to be able to be a plumber or electrician or anything like that. I think it's not declining. I just think it's changing. To be honest with you, I just think people are looking at it from a different perspective and utilizing it, and and that's what it should do. I mean, it should not stay the same forever. And so that's why I'm fortunate enough to be in this industry because I get to be part of that conversation and process of what it's going to look like for my kids, what it's going to look like for my grandkids. To be honest, if we're doing the same things they did when I was in college, we're doing something wrong. Yeah. And so I think it's changing. I think humans are changing, and I think that's what's so exciting about what's happening in higher education right now. Michael Hingson  44:28 One of the big problems, of course, though, with higher education, and I'm I'm assuming I may be wrong, but more now than somewhat in the past is is the cost. It's getting more and more expensive to do, and I don't know whether that's a relative thing or an absolute percentage-wise. You can prove that it's more expensive, but still, how do you deal with with the people who say it's just so much more expensive to go? John Frost  44:51 Yeah, no, that's a great one. And and I think it depends on what are you looking for, right? I mean, everybody is. Looking to go to X Y Z University. I never Michael Hingson  45:03 go to X Y Z anyway. John Frost  45:05 I mean X Y Z because A B C is probably better. Yeah, exactly. But the the thing is, is understanding what is your. It's just like anything. It's an investment, and if it's an investment, it's what is your financial ability to to work towards that investment, and that again goes back to our conversations with the students that we serve, is them understanding what does it cost to come to Doane University, what does it mean to invest in Doane University, and how does that return looks like once you're done here at Doan University? The one thing that I always would tell people, I can't guarantee anything, but what I can guarantee is that you're going to do a lot better with a degree than without it, because you're going to provide yourself an abundance of options that wouldn't be available if you did not have that degree. In which, because if you have those options, that's going to allow you to be able to create revenue for yourself, that then allows you to have additional options that wouldn't have been that you wouldn't have been to have if you didn't make that initial investment up front by investing in college. But like I said, with ever since I've been in this industry, the one thing that I've always stressed to the people that I serve is, you know, understanding your financial responsibility, understanding scholarships, understanding your ability to get scholarships, understanding financial aid, understanding grants, understanding there's a variety of ways that you can get support to support you to finance college, and so that's the main thing is being able to understand those options and knowing how to move forward with those. Michael Hingson  46:38 Do you think there are some people who are better off not going to a four-year college, or rather, let's just say higher education in general. They're more technical, and they should just do a trade school. Or do you think everyone should get a a full bachelor's degree at least in college? John Frost  46:56 Yeah, and as I mentioned, I think everybody deserves the opportunity for some post-secondary education. Not does everybody need to go to a four-year school or two-year school? No. If you put me in a trade school right now, I probably flunk out. That's just not my skill set, right? Me too. Yeah. So, but I do. That's one of the Michael Hingson  47:14 reasons I never go to X, Y, Z. But yeah, John Frost  47:16 you may be more of an A, B, C. You know, yeah, and so, but that's the see, but that's the that's the uniqueness and the joy that I get in what I get to do, is that I get to help qualify what are some of the best options for the individual that I'm working with and serving, and and being able to tell them, hey, I think this is may maybe a better option, or have you thought about these particular things? Because no, I don't think everybody needs to go to Harvard or everybody needs to come to Doane. But I do think if you do decide to go to Doane, you're going to have a wonderful experience, and you're going to be able to do some really great things. But no, I think at the end of the day, is what's best fit for you, and being able to understand those post-secondary education options. Michael Hingson  48:06 How does college, or how should college, work to help people not only prepare for that first career, but for careers, especially those that perhaps we haven't even thought of yet? And how do you do that? John Frost  48:19 Yeah, I think it comes down to like we talked about the curiosity. What are you naturally good at? I think the one thing that I've seen that I guess I I wouldn't say I've been disappointed, but I've seen a decline, is that I don't I don't see a lot of people who are dreaming or curious about what they're good at. It's almost like they're waiting for somebody to tell them what it is. I don't know if that's an online thing or what have you. But even even when I was a recruiter and I would work with young people, they would say, "Well, I don't know what I want to do. And I always say, "I don't care what it is. Take the top 10 things that you dislike. I don't. It could be basketball. It can be writing. It can be candy. It can be whatever. It can be great shoes, whatever, and take the top 10 things. And we have this thing called Google. I don't know if you heard about it, but and just plug those things in there. Hey, I love candy. Is there a career in candy? I love you know looking at shoes and and understanding shoes. Is there a career? I mean the the the uniqueness of information that we have now than we had 30 years ago is amazing, and so I I think that's what I've I've seen a decline. And the way colleges can help prepare people is to to allow them to be courageous and being curious, and and Michael Hingson  49:44 oh, go ahead. No, John Frost  49:46 and I think that's the thing that we want to do. But go ahead, I'm sorry. Michael Hingson  49:48 Do you think that there's so much access to so many things online? You mentioned Google, but just the whole concept of smartphones and and everything else. Do you think that that's. Sort of helping people do less real dreaming and imagination because they just expect everything to be spelled out right in front of them. John Frost  50:09 And I think it's to the eye of the beholder. You know, smartphones are not good for dumb people, right? So, but I think smartphones for curious people are a powerful thing. I can honestly say, and this is kind of off topic, but I wouldn't consider myself a cook about 1012, years ago. But if it wasn't for the internet, if it wasn't for YouTube, I wouldn't have learned how to smoke meat and do barbecue, right? Yeah. Because that wasn't something I did when I was a kid. It wasn't something I was even thinking about, but because I had a curiosity and I and I love barbecuing and I love smoked meats and I love grilling and things like that, I I learned because of my smartphone how to do all those things, how to prep the meat and how to marinate things and how to be curious about recipes and how to develop flavor profiles and all those things that I did not know about. If it wasn't for the the advent of having a smartphone to just look it up, like, hey, how do you how do you make pulled pork? You know what I mean, and just taking it from there. So I think I think again, smartphones are not good for dumb people. I'm not saying people are dumb, but I think it's powerful for curious people. And as long as you're curious, I think it can be a really great asset for you if you utilize it right. Michael Hingson  51:31 And I think that's absolutely true. I think it all comes down again to curiosity. It's great to have a technology so that you can look things up and and satisfy your curiosity, but what we what we do need to do is to try to work as best we can at encouraging curiosity at all levels and encouraging more people to be curious. And that's where I think the real challenge is because people think you don't have to really be curious because you can look things up, they they don't get John Frost  52:03 it. Yes, no, I agree 100, and that's why I say it depends on the type of person you are, right? I mean, if I mean, I don't spend a lot of time on my phone if I don't have to, but when I am curious about certain things, I can go to it and learn more about it and say, "Oh, this is what I need to do. And but if you was a person that was going to cut a corner or do shortcuts, you was going to figure out a way to do that anyway. It's not the it's not the resources you Michael Hingson  52:29 right, and the the time is going to come when you're going to regret taking those shortcuts because you didn't really imagine very well. And I, I always regarded the internet, dark web notwithstanding, as as a as a treasure trove, yes. Of course, I'm I'm waiting for someone since the Department of Justice and the Attorney General back in I think 2022 said that the internet is a true place of business, and so it falls under the ADA, and all websites have to be accessible. I'm just waiting for somebody to go off and challenge one of the dark web sites. That's probably not accessible. I'm waiting for that to happen. Take that before a judge, you know. But but still, but I I think that the internet and and so many things and ChatGPT and all the other large language model technologies are great because they really give you the ability to exercise curiosity, and I think that's so fun. John Frost  53:32 Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Michael Hingson  53:34 So, what's an example that you can talk about? Let's say from Doane about how industry and the college have collaborated to help in terms of education and showing people what they can really do. John Frost  53:49 You know, that's a good question. It happens every day. It happens every day. It happens every day when the first day of school to the last day of graduation. You're looking at the the ultimate collaborative effort of maybe hundreds of people for that individual to walk across that stage. Even though it's one name on that degree, it might have taken 100 people to get them there, from the advisors, from the faculty members, from the friends that they meet, from the from the from the from the coaches, from all types of different people that that one individual encountered to keep them encouraged, to keep them going. Always tell people, especially being here in Nebraska, when you go to school in Nebraska, one day you're gonna have a class that's at 8o'clock in the morning, and you're gonna wake up, and you're gonna walk out there. You're gonna feel negative 10 degree weather, and you're gonna first thing you're gonna think about is I can go right back in and go lay back down. But it's that encouragement of your friends. It's the encouragement of the folks that that are behind you that's gonna tell you you can make it to class. You can make it to class, and that's all it takes. And so I think the the culmination of all those things is what it is that we do. I mean, when that individual walk across that stage and they see grandma or mama or daddy or whomever screaming their name and yelling and all that, they went to class. They didn't turn back around and go. They lay back down. They stood up, and that's why they walk across that stage. So that's the greatest example I can give you, because that's what Dome does. And like I said, we've been doing it for 153 years. So it's not going to be too many places. It's not going to be too many things where you're not going to see a Dome graduate that's doing great things, not necessarily just for themselves, but for the organizations that they serve and and the people that they serve, and then for the greater good of the world. Michael Hingson  55:42 I don't know. For me, I had classes almost every day at eight in the morning. But the other part about it was, if I had a schedule for whatever reason where I didn't have a class at eight in the morning, I felt funny. I was so used to having classes then. I didn't know what you know. I I I I I did figure out I could go study and I could do things and and did, but still I love those early morning classes. That was me. But yeah, I didn't like those John Frost  56:10 early morning classes. No, I didn't like them. Michael Hingson  56:12 You didn't like them, huh? No, that was when Michael Jordan was looking for you to do basketball stuff. Where were you? But yeah, I I hear you. Well, tell me what's next? What's next for the whole future of higher education? Where is it going, or what do you see happening in the future? John Frost  56:30 We're just going to get better. We're just going to get better. That's all. That's that's that's what's happening. I mean, the unique thing about any college campus is that you you have the future in your hands with the people, the people that's going to be running corporations, the people that's going to be finding cures for certain illnesses or things like that, the people that's going to be teaching the youth, future business people, politicians-they're on our campus and they're going to leave their mark because that's one thing that I've always said. I mean, it's not too many discoveries. It's not too many great things that's happening in our society that's not oriented with a college campus. And so the future is that a college campus is just. It may look different. It may feel different. We may do things a little different. But at the end of the day, it's still going to be part of our future. It's still going to be getting better. It's still going to be helping humanity. I always tell the folks that I serve that I don't care what title you have. The first title, the most important title is being a human, and so that's what the future of higher education is going to look like. It's just going to get better. Like I said, it's going to be different. I mean, you got to think when higher education first started. You know, women couldn't go to school, minorities couldn't go to school, and there were so many different things that you couldn't do. Now look at it. I mean, if you talk to the forefathers or the presidents of some of these universities, if you told them that that you and I would even be doing this, they'd be thinking they would throw you an insane asylum, right? That you'll be able to talk to somebody in California and you're in Nebraska, but this this is what this is what curiosity, this is what higher education provokes, Michael Hingson  58:10 as it should be. It's so cool, and I know it's only going to continue, and it will continue to get better. If people want to reach out to you and pick your brain, or just talk with you about Doan, or just talk with you about education, or whatever. How do they do that? John Frost  58:26 Yeah, of course. Feel free to email me at johnfrost@done.edu. So J J O H N dot frost frost at don d o a n e at.edu and then also follow us on social media. Just put us on any social media platform and put don.edu. You can find us, and then if you want to just connect with us, just look us up on our website doane.edu. That's our website. We'd love to learn more about you. If you're thinking about coming to college or looking more into lea

What does it really mean to build bridges that last for decades? I want you to meet Bircan Unver, whose lifelong commitment to responsibility, creativity, and global citizenship has shaped more than 25 years of meaningful work through Light Millennium. From growing up as the eldest of seven children in Turkey to creating an internationally recognized nonprofit connected with the United Nations, Bircan shares how art, public media, and open dialogue can bring people together across cultures. We explore why responsibility begins with each of us, how local communities can help solve global challenges, and why issues like water security, environmental stewardship, and human connection matter more than ever. I believe you'll enjoy hearing how one person's unstoppable mindset continues to inspire collaboration, education, and hope for a better future. Highlights: 06:55 - How growing up with responsibility shaped Bircan's lifelong commitment to serving others. 18:30 - Why public access television became the foundation for sharing voices and building community. 26:15 - The story behind founding Light Millennium and creating a nonprofit built on dialogue and education. 36:55 - How local communities can play a meaningful role in advancing United Nations goals. 49:45 - Why water security, cybersecurity, and gender equality are becoming deeply connected. 55:40 - Bircan reflects on preserving ideas through books, creativity, and lifelong learning. About the Guest: Bircan Ünver is the Founder-President of The Light Millennium, a Charitable Global Human Advancement Organization (LMGlobal.Org, 2001, New York); Executive Producer of the LMTV Programs; Multi-Media and Event Producer; Host, Author, Publisher, Public Speaker; [Head] NGO Representative of The Light Millennium to the United Nations Department of Global Communications since 2005 (formerly, UN.DPI); and Chair, Outreach and Partnerships Subcommittee at Global NGO Executive Committee and director for the 2021-2023 term. She has been also a Content Provider at QPTV since 1992, and she is the editor and co-founder of the U.S. Turkish Library & Museum Project. She has undertaken the Organization's e-publications, public programs since its inception in August 1999, and #LightMillenniumTV Series and Specials in all aspects of it since January 2000; along with, the LMGlobal.Org's all UN-related activity and programs since 2005. Bircan is the author and director of the Compulsory Peace & ICTs Education from Kindergarten to K-12, and Beyond Campaign, which she launched it through the Light Millennium Global in support of the Summit of the Future in 2024. The Campaign has delivered its 8th session along with the Coalition for the Campaign, which contains 22 organizations and educational institutions including The Light Millennium Global as the leading organization. Further,  she is also author of the bi-annual international high school project, “J.U.C. Media, Research, Writing & Innovation Awards”. The third of its kind was dedicated to the “Water Action Decade” and was delivered  (virtually) on the World Water Day, March 22, 2025. Bircan served as a mentor to the GPODS for three consecutive terms in Winter'22, Summer'22, and Fall'22 Fellowship Programs; and delivered lectures on “How to associate with the UN-NGO”, Public Access TVs in the U.S., and the latest one was on the #WaterActionDecade and the #2023UNWater Conference. To attach that, on behalf of LMGlobal.Org, she organized and hosted an Outside-UN Side Event ID #W175, titled, “What Is Your Commitment To The #WaterActionDecade? ~ Seven Core Ideas Toward #WaterAwareness, #WaterConscience and #GameChangers” in NYC on March 21, 2023, and was the head delegate of the LMGlobal.Org at the #UN2023WaterConference. Based on LMGlobal.Org's Commitments to the #WaterActionDecade, she launched #OneMinuteWaterActionCommitment during the #W175 Side Event, along with continues to work toward #WaterAwareness toward building up #WaterConscience.  She served as the chair of the ATAA Committee on UN Relations, guided its association to the UNDGC in 2020, and also served as the New York Regional Vice-President of ATAA (Assembly of Turkish American Associations) from October 2019 to January 2022. Furthermore, she served on several Planning Committees of the UN-Civil Society Conferences, and the Planning Committee of the High-Level Forum on the Culture of Peace (HLF-CoP). She has been a strong advocate of the UN Vision, Programs & Sustainable Development Goals (2015-2030) along with the relevant UN Days, which are in line with the LMGlobal.Org's Mission/Purposes since its association with the UNDGC (formerly, UN.DPI/NGO) in December 2005. Currently, Bircan is on the Advisory Board of the Turkish Forum (based in Germany). She encourages and guides interested civil society organizations and members of academia toward their educational institutions' associations with the UN, along with engaging them with the UN Programs that are within her networks and beyond. Further, she is an Ambassador of Peace and Goodwill for Anuvrat (Anuvibha) Global Organization (Jaipur, India, since 2014); and a Member of the Global Movement for the Culture of Peace (GMCoP, since 2012). Bircan is also the founder and president of the IsikBinyili.Org Association based in Istanbul (2010), which is a sister organization and counterpart of the LMGlobal.Org. Author of the following four book titles in print (Turkish): “En Kutsalı Yaratmak” (The Most Sacred is to Create) (1995, 2022), “Sanatın Labirentlerinde” (The Labyrinths of Arts) (2016), and “Işık Yollarında (“The Ways of the Light”) (poetry, 2017), and “Bin Yıl Daha…” (2020, A Thousand Years More…). Also, she is the author of the concept and compilation of the “Hope Never Fades” (English) book (Istanbul, 2023). Bircan initially received her local and studio television production certificates at QPTV.Org in 1992. Based on this capacity, she produced and broadcasted near to 260 television programs through local channels in New York City, which are also available online through www.vimeo.com/channels/LightMillenniumTV including 36 #OneMinute #WaterAction PSAs. Bircan celebrated her 30th Anniversary at QPTV.Org through a video profile, titled, “A Turkish Experience in America” (Duration: ~9 min. Production Year: 2022). Her works through The Light Millennium Global is a recipient of various national (U.S.) and international awards and recognitions including two awards from the Foundation of Alliance Community 2023 Hometown Media Awards (F-ACM-HMA for her “GroundWater” Light Millennium TV program in Web-based Programming and Online Events / Independent Producer categories (received at Brick TV, New York), the Anuvrat Ahimsa Award For International Peace-2023 (received in Mumbai, India), and the 2023 International Volunteer President Award by Institution of Green Engineers (received in Chennai, India), and ashe is also the recipient of the 2024 Best Web-Based Program – Independent Producer for the #HopeNeverFades program by F-ACM-HMA, which was produced based on the 2023 J.U.C. Media, Research & Writing Awards (ACM HomeTown Media Awards, San Jose, CA). Bircan holds a Bachelor of Arts (B.A.) Degree from the Mimar Sinan Fine Arts University (Istanbul, 1988) and a Master's Degree (M.A.) from Media Studies of the New School University (New York City 1999). Ways to connect with Bircan**:** Websites: www.lmglobal.org  (active web site) | www.lightmillennium.org (serves as the organization's web archive)#LightMillenniumTV | www.vimeo.com/LMTV | www.vimeo.com/channels/LightMillenniumTV Social Media: Linkedin: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bircan-ünver-7353207 X@lightmillennium Instagram@lightmillennium About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, hello everyone, and I want to welcome you to another edition of Unstoppable Mindset, and today we get to talk to a very interesting person with a with a lot of roots in Turkey, but she is also doing a lot of work with the United Nations here in the U.S. and other places. Her name is Birchan Umfer, and I hope I got that right. And Bircan Unver  01:23 thank you. Michael Hingson  01:24 Oh, good. And Berjan is is with us, and is going to talk about a number of things that she is working on. She's working on, and for years has been involved with a program called Light Millennium, and we'll we'll talk about all that, but let's just start and and as usual we'll have a great conversation. So, Bir John, I want to welcome you to Unstoppable Mindset. We're glad you're here. Bircan Unver  01:50 Thank you so much, Michael Hingston. It's great honor and privilege to have your guests. Especially, I love the title Unstoppable Minds. It's really inspiring and triggering the mind. Thank you. Michael Hingson  02:08 Well, my pleasure. We're glad that you have the time to to spend with us, and we will we will we will do it and make it work. Well, let's start. I love to start this way because I really want people to learn about you. Tell us kind of about the early Birchan growing up, and then we'll go from there. So tell us about Birchan and growing up, and and and all of that. Bircan Unver  02:32 Thank you. This will be a little bit different than most people know about me, my work. Well, we'll get to Michael Hingson  02:38 your work. Bircan Unver  02:40 Yeah, I know. I mean, the people who already know my work. What I'm gonna say now is completely too different from Berja. So I am a elder of seven siblings, and I was born in an ancient village in Mid Anatolia, actually nearby the Black Sea region, and I'm proud with my age, 1959, and my family moved to town first from the village, and then Istanbul for our educations for their kids, and but I don't know really as a girl child growing up with seven kids, as especially with a traditional family, being older girl is not a good idea. But but maybe it was a kind of tough childhood as a girl child. I I don't feel that I never been a child. That's really what I feel. But on the other hand, and that was you know when you are growing up, living through like I was a kind of second mom, and also our home was kind of everyone our guest from the village town and stay over not only one night, like or a week, like sometimes months, even years. You won't believe that, and it was not because either. So, but those kind of build up maybe my feeling to be responsible, so I consider myself a responsible person because I was responsible for my sisters, brothers, and also washing dishes, making helping my mom to prepare the meal, lunch, breakfast, and clean up. Like you know, I was kind of second person, second mom at home. So those early things, all those stolen my childhood, but at the same time, provide me being able to do everything from very early age. Even though I remember several times at the time. The bread wasn't, you know, you you weren't buying the bread from the market, but from the bakery, real where they were baking the bread. So she was, and time to time also she was making the the bread at home, and then she she wasn't sending me to school because then I had to stay with my brothers and kids so she can make the you know breads a big amount for a couple days. So that said, also gave my idea. I want to suddenly want to work as soon as you know I'm 17, 1617, So and then I started early working at a bank, and it was my first eight years. I worked at a bank in Istanbul. It is called Istanbul Bank, and then my graphic is like life graphic is a little bit different, like curvy, not like straight line. Then after eight years working at a bank, I started to university and fine arts, and then I had kind of interest art history, especially TV production, art history, arts in in the concept is producing art documentaries. That was kind of my vision. Also, it was also my reason initially coming to the U.S. learning TV production. Of course, English as first. So that was very much my childhood until you know 18 until starting at the bank, and then the rest is another story. I have, I must say, I would have three different life. Michael Hingson  06:48 Well, you had certainly an interesting childhood, needless to say, and I, I can understand what you're saying about being the oldest and all the challenges. I was not. I was the youngest, but we only had two siblings, and neither of us we were we were both males, and so we we did not do a lot in terms of preparing meals and all that sort of stuff. Except my brother and I were both in the Boy Scouts, and so when we went camping and other things like that, we learned how to cook on an open or an open fire and and things like that. But still, I understand that you you had a a lot that you had to do. What lessons did you learn by being the oldest child? What kinds of things do you think that you you carry over to what to your life today, because you were the oldest. Bircan Unver  07:44 I think two different components of that. One is also because it wasn't only I was the as a kid at the home and as a girl, girl, but also at the time there wasn't that kind of awareness which we have today. Which I mean, my mom got married with my dad at the age of 15, and she had birth. She had given me birth at the age of 16, the reason I'm bringing up this, when we were going to shopping Kapolechar, Grand Market of Istanbul, when I was 1516, and literally we were halfway age difference between my mom and myself. And when I was saying mom, and the people were surprised, and she and isn't your sister, other sister? They were asking me, and she was my mom. So, but this is in the long later years. I always become the best friend with my mom, and even my brother was saying, "Oh, now I understood that she, you are the joy of my mom because she can kind of a joke, and the others, my kids, like they are kids, but I'm her friend because they kind of feel similar. That is one, you know, lifetime developed feeling and strong connection, different connection with my mom, and the other also, as I mentioned at the beginning, it really this whole, you know, not selected, but where you, which house you born, which condition you grow up, that build up for me early high level responsibility. I feel responsible to do everything, and I, you know, that's a little bit tiring because that's what I want to say here. You say something in our after our initial Zoom meeting. It's really very inspiring. You say something. I just took note. We can solve all the worst problem. We can. You say you don't say we cannot. You say we can. Solve all the world's problems. So, like, it wasn't possible. It's not possible, but you know, as if I could solve the problems or I could carry everything. So it's kind of you know build up my bricks in my life. Michael Hingson  10:18 One of the things that you certainly, it sounds like you learned as you were growing up, though, was was all about responsibility and and and learning to take charge, but learning about responsibility and and feeling that it was okay to be responsible for others in your family and so on. And I think a lot of people don't necessarily learn a lot of lessons about responsibility, like they should. But you were put in a position where you had to do that, which is is certainly a good thing because you clearly have have done that in your life. Bircan Unver  10:54 That's very true, and also it goes with everything. Let's say sometimes some people think maybe unnecessary action when people cut trees, even in their you know backyard or front yard, whatever trees or any type of trees or fruit trees. I really get mad and upset because it is irresponsible to nature, to their own environment, just feeling they're responsible to trees, loving the trees, loving the you know, for instance, if when I was it was two weeks ago, I was working on at my desk, a bees was you know flying around me, and I don't like you know trying to hit and chase the bees, and I just left the window open, moved the room two hours, and it's gone. So I don't want to hurt things, even though if it bites, it would hurt me, right? So to kind of find a way, being responsible, because also I have a subconscious thinking that if I try to chase a herd, if an insect, any of them, they you know they react sharp. So I'm not a threat to them. So they are not threat to me. So I kind of make a subconscious connection, communication. Michael Hingson  12:22 Well, and it's it's better to to learn to love than than not. So I I hear what you're saying. Now you didn't go to college or university, right? Or you did? Bircan Unver  12:35 Of course, I did. That's what I was just briefly brought this stair at that level. That after eight years working at at Istanbul Bank, from literally actually 17 to 24 or 23 late 23 early 24 then I started at the Fine Arts University in Istanbul, and I mainly study both as major Turkish tradition arts and also along with as a minor. We didn't have a minor, but we had we didn't have the minor degree, but we had a selected course. So I was following up several like four years in a row and also whole year around, not a quarter semester base artist troy and contemporary art. So I started writing on art and exhibit and interviewing artists while I started study at the Fine Arts University, which is top university in Fine Arts in Istanbul, Myanmar, Sinan Fine Arts University. Michael Hingson  13:44 So you learned a lot about fine arts, and Bircan Unver  13:47 yeah, Michael Hingson  13:47 and you had obviously learned about finance from the bank, which Bircan Unver  13:51 is didn't learn that Michael Hingson  13:53 much, huh? Bircan Unver  13:53 Not at all, and I didn't like it. That's why I, you know, I changed all my life line. Michael Hingson  14:00 Right, but but you enjoyed art. Bircan Unver  14:03 Yes, and because also art always for me, and it as it is today. Whatever the life problems we cannot be resolved, art is always for me a branch to hold on and to kind of feel strength, connect with the nature, with the art culture, whom I never might met, or maybe you know through art, through music, through books. So it's kind of really, I think the the best human conscious and what we leave behind is what we produce. Creative might be a little bit another discussion. What is the term defined? And now everyone using like creative for everything, but creativity is like really what stays, you know, central. And something as what is already before, and what you brought it something new, that new perspective, like cubism and faism and expressionism and all that different genres or pop arts and another one Dali's movement. So all the Dadaism, so each of them brought something what is already existed, and then you know moved to different level, and also technology and communication brought where we are today. So and music, I'm not any degree. Degree train or understand, but I love music as most people about music and arts and literature and writing is always for me. Also taking pictures. I don't trust my memory much, but this is not new, not because of my age now. But I somewhat I always like take the pictures, whether I have cell phone, the oldest, you know, digital or the manual photo photographs. So even though when I run into where where was it, where I was, who was with, who next to me? I can't remember. But why I love that? Because really, it brings, it captures your life, even you don't remember, and then reconnect. Also, I I come up with a new concept. I haven't done anything yet, but it's kind of developing in my mind, that we can, we are able to capture the past, but we cannot capture the future, because you know whether you know unexpected the one photo comes up, or an audio recording, or all those movies, musics, and documentaries and paintings throughout artistry, you can really capture the past depending on what you know your background or interest and education, but you cannot capture the future. But you can imagine, we can imagine the future. We can invest into the future. Michael Hingson  17:16 Well, and and the the reality is that that the future is based on so many things that happen in the past, and so you can learn to to use some of that information and and have a better idea of what the future might be like, and that's that's pretty fascinating too. So so, how long did you go to college Bircan Unver  17:42 in in Turkey the basic four university education is annual base, not semester base. It's a four years, and actually when I started it was five years. Then later on they the system education board changed it to like four years plus two years. So I graduated from a four years fine arts, and then I have a master's degree based in New York News School University. Michael Hingson  18:20 Ah, in New York. Bircan Unver  18:21 Yeah. Michael Hingson  18:22 Okay. So that was was that two years. Bircan Unver  18:27 Yes, but it was a little bit different again. Yeah. See, because first when I was here for the first time, 18 919, 89 to 1994, I started and I took to six credits and I love it. But I had to go back to Istanbul, so then I got the you know absence live of absence, and then but coming back three years later, I readmitted, and then I finish it. I got my graduate diploma in 1999 May 1999 Michael Hingson  19:12 Okay, so Bircan Unver  19:14 you've been dealing late. You've been Michael Hingson  19:17 dealing with school for a while, but but while all that was going on, you got interested in, and you started to to do things regarding public access television. And you started that, if I read your biography correctly, in in 1991, you started doing things with public public access TV. Tell us a little bit about that, and why did you do that? Bircan Unver  19:41 That's really the kind of key point in my life. In as for the initial one of the two reasons that I came to the U.S. as the first time, I was you know the first aim to learn English. The second also. To learn the TV production, and then my first year was in the U.S. was in L.A. and then I was looking for the schools and just I'm I I'd like to get the formal education, formal training, and then one of my friends there, whom I met there, she said my aunt is TV producer at Queens Public TV in New York, and she is looking for someone like you who really wants to get in and all that. And then I think a couple months later, I had a very brief trip to New York, and I met with her, and then I met with her at QPTV. Now she is unfortunately not with us, but she was also she was the first Turkish producer at QPTV, and I'm forever grateful in memory of her. She was the one who introduced me QPTV, so I met Victor at QPTV in 1990, and then when I went back to LA, I decided to move to New York. So as soon as I moved to New York and I registered to QPTV's both field production and studio, and at the time, there were seven, eight months waiting list. Eventually, I got it on the list, 1991, and first I got the field production certificate, and it was I think six months something, and we had a group project and solo project, and then studio and studio production. It's when the same group project after you are learning all the equipment and then shooting and everyone is crewing everyone is helping each other within the same group of the class and then also producing group project and then the individual project that it is the similar step for the field production and the studio, that also provides a certificate to enabling us to use QPTV equipment, studios taking out the equipment, inviting studios, studios. Unfortunately, after COVID 19, there has been a long dragging issue. They haven't opened the studios. This is I don't want to get in because it is beyond our concept, but because that was my initial reason also moving to New York. And then once I started producing program and airing, I really loved idea from one idea, just idea, and then put paper and develop it. Bring yes, bring the crew, especially with the manual three-inch tapes, and to present, put everything in a tape, and then submit it an ARC schedule. I really love that. So then, while I was there, and then I said, "Okay, I want to really have a master's degree on TV production. So my master's degree from New Zealand University is in media studies. So and I got my diploma May 1999 So, but New Zealand was amazing. I learned all the first my you know my life although it was 39 maybe 3839 years old when I was Photoshop and Premiere or Evid and all the first offline digital all the software program I learned at the new school and I edited my first program offline at the new circle as well, but when I got diploma, and then I had nowhere no access to continue. Also, you know, it's just I, I never been about the person. My mind and my heart wealthy, but not financial terms. And then, so QPT was always my second home because it provides me continuing the producing and provides me access, provides me equipment. It's like provides the community. That's what it is exists for, especially in support of the Article First Amendment and freedom of expression, and also QPTV format is really, really not well known, or not QPTV loaned. It is public access, pack programming, public education and government programming, non-commercial. So it's it is not much known widely, but it is really one of the best symbol of democracy. And now it's kind of a little bit diminishing because also widespreading out other web streaming platforms like this or other, so that there are so many. Discussion and issues, and also there is one petition to the New York Senate that is called Team New York that could also bring in all the web streaming to this community media access public access media. So then, Michael Hingson  25:19 oh, go ahead. Bircan Unver  25:20 No, I mean the question is so QPTV had has been the longest since 1991. I've been providing content, and as long as I am in the US, if I'm out of the country, even if I am out of the country, my previously submitted programs are rerunning in different, you know, whenever they schedule for my new programs, I determine which time slot because I have a time slot to be scheduled, and whether 28 minutes or one hour. But especially again after COVID 19, I couldn't produce anything at the studio at QPTV, but like this Zoom-based programs, and then for the late million organization, the programs I produce and then edit them, reformat them to schedule for QPTV. But it wasn't as it used to be produced at QPTV, at the studio with the crew, that's the excitement teaming up. It's really, I love it. But Zoom, this type also make more maybe manageable, but also bring more intonation speakers. You know, through online connection. If Speaker 1  26:54 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  27:28 So you you started in public access television and and and are still doing that essentially. But in 2000 you started Light Millennium TV. Tell us about Light Millennium Television. Bircan Unver  27:42 Thank you so much. Because Late Millennium, I still consider it's my third child because already 25th anniversary. The flyer on my back says 25th That also refers the 25th anniversary of the Light Millennium. I think a the experience and production, and also providing three platform QPTV, Queens Public TV, but actually the 1992 Communication Act and PAC programming, public government public education and government programming; those emerge with my new school education, like Fatrus, Plato, the concept of the two ways of messaging, and for the first time in my life, at the age of I think it was I was 39 I was able 3039, I was able to use. It was very new, also for the war. Internet. We had the internet at the new school as our media class, the open forum. One week media theory class. We have open discussion forum about Greek philosophy, further is communication, media theory. The other class we had the classic format. So all these together merged in my mind, and I really felt I found my medium. That medium is the internet, which me, especially someone is living in New York, who has you know 30 years first life in Turkey, Istanbul, that culture, and then I I didn't want to kind of disconnect from my root cultures, and internet provided me that connections, and also I always like to write and communicate, so so it becomes like natural medium. And then when I just graduated in May 1999 I send out by then like 40 people with my friends. Colleagues, and then I said, "Oh, I want to start a platform. This platform is going to be ours. And everyone wants to say, kind of to expand the QPTV's concept, because when I say QPTV's concept, this is the again First Amendment, and they don't control the content. They don't say anything you can do, you cannot unless it is a threat to someone's life. So it's all the content, or you are responsible as the producer. So I really love that freedom and responsibility again. And then then I was mentoring at the New York Food Moon Finance and Television, and I was kind of trying to find what I want to do, and I was already producing programs at QPTV. I never give up as as long as I could afford to produce the time and edit. Edit is always more time consuming, and then the executive director of the at the time 1999 Woman Film Man Television, she said you can form a nonprofit. I never taught it before, and I'm forever thankful to her. And then I said I don't know what to do where to start because she perhaps she saw the potential because I was producing non-commercial and publishing, trying to promote, you know, through group emails, and whatever the you know social media available at the time. Well, mostly email and group emails, and then she suggested me a volunteer lawyers of arts that she said they can help you, and I never knew and I never thought I if I never came to U.S. maybe I will never had a concept of forming a nonprofit or light minimum. So that U.S. and all combination brought me and news called Queens Public TV, First Amendment, United Nations Article of 19 Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Everything together kind of merged in my mind. Also, the projects I produce, I communicate, is contact with people, I learn from them. So then, when I contacted with them, they ask me, you know, what is my statement this type? And then I drafted all of them, and they put in medical, you know, terms and terminology, and I was lucky that we got a pro bono at the time one of the you know major U.S. law firms. I I think I can say now because they even though I think merged K Shuler, but they took our case and they formed my organization on on a pro bono basis and officially the first as a non profit organization done with the 500 1c T V together. So we officially formed 2001 July 17, and we and then right after that they filed 501c3 for us, and then we granted that in September 18, 2002. Bircan Unver  33:14 My memory is not good, but I I remember that date as of today because it was kind of imprinted in my mind, but also the beauty was that the granted granting 501 c3 was effective of the formation date, which is July 17 2001 So then, since I developed started the light minimum concept, introducing speaking people trying creating an open platform that everyone can you know contribute be part of it, so then I started in January 2000 on January 13 2000 started first monthly the like TV series at like at QP TV. That's how it came about. Michael Hingson  34:02 Yeah, you have certainly created quite a niche in in the whole light millennium and all the other things that you've done, which is pretty fascinating. How did you get connected with the United Nations? Because I know you're doing work with them. Bircan Unver  34:18 Thank you. Actually, the concept with the UN use, I don't do work for them. Michael Hingson  34:29 Right. Bircan Unver  34:29 We do work with them. Right. You're connected Michael Hingson  34:34 with them. You're not working for them. I understand that. Bircan Unver  34:36 Yeah, I just you know one word, but it's key key differences. But as as I mentioned, how the light millennium concept emerged, and also my master's degree program, media studies at the New School, and also there is another person I have to mention here, also in. Separate for her respectful and loving memory, Danielle Camille. She was my advisor for my thesis project advisor at the new school, and all that TV ideas and my thesis project. And she loved, and I got all A. And my first TV ideas project was peace, reality, or utopian dream, and it was 11 minutes or so. It was just before the first Clinton administration election, just October, I think 2002 and then I interviewed many academicians, civil society, non-profits who whose focus area on peace and war and you know against nuclear or all that and and then that actually the concept peace reality or utopian dream that took me to the United Nations I don't know now as a as an outsider, at the time it was so welcoming, and I went to photo department. They share me with photos, and I got all the books I was looking for. Of course, public library. I got all the books about the peace and peace organization. So that 12 minutes program, peace rate or utopian dream, and physically led me to step in the UN for the first time, and then producing this project, searching kind of open to me new horizon, and also my advisor was persistent. Birjan, we know you are great. You produce fundamental programs on arts, but I want you to do something else. So that actually also forced me to move beyond producing something beyond arts. And so then then peace, reality, or utopian dream concept came in, but also it wasn't far topic in my life because my son was born 20 when I was 2022 Now he is 45 His name is Borush, and mean is in Turkish peace. Peace also at the time, you know, Africa hunger, and I was hoping when I get 4050, this will be over. It's not the case, but as a vision, I always look for humanistic positive for the humanity, not you know for myself well-being. Michael Hingson  37:38 Well, you you kind of act as a bridge between UN programs and local communities. Tell me more about that because you view that you view yourself as being a bridge between UN programs and the local community. Why do you why do you view yourself as more of a bridge? Bircan Unver  38:00 That's very nice metaphor, and I think it's very true for me too. Maybe I could take it two three step backs. One is the village I was born. There is a river, and and then there was a bridge, and that bridge was kind of fundamental. Really, going to where you know people are established, living in all the agriculture and large fields, and it was kind of nostalgic to me. It's a bridge, but it's a stone, short bridge. That's the the first part. The second Istanbul. You know, my life main path when I was in Istanbul, Turkey in Istanbul, and Istanbul the Bosphor and then the Istanbul Bridge. Now the name changed, and now three bridges, and not just the bridge itself, but also Turkish geographic Turkey's geographical space place on Earth and especially on in between Europe and Asia and Black Sea and then the Mediterranean Sea and then when you go down North Africa, and then you go up like Russia and North Europe. So you see that that connection physically, geographically, and troy physical bridges. We live, we grow up with this kind of as part of our DNA and vision. When I was working on this, the first the initial need you know in the non-profit world to describe the need need was to connect with my culture, people, friends, family, the internet medium, and then village is also metaphor, and when we associated with the. I let I'm proud to say it. Let the association process. That was also my vision from that small video for the class project. And then, then I realize this is also. I think today is real fact that local communities, even Queens here, people are paying 1000s of dollars to come to New York to get visas. All that trying to get the sponsor, you know, to attend a conference, and I I didn't see much interest within the local nonprofits there, and that little bit was shocking realization for me. So I brought to my programs UN visions programs, MDGs, UN days, sustainable development goals. For instance, when it was announced at the UN for the 2023 agenda, we created dreams for humanity. So we brought people from lots of life, poets, authors, and youths to really share their ideas for humanity, for peace. Michael Hingson  41:12 Well, you-it sounds like, from all that I've read and and studied, you're you're, or at some point, you kind of have moved more into dealing with a lot of things with the environment. So I know that your program has been able to get a credit accredited as an observer observer status with the UN Environment Program. How is how has that affected what you do and all of your work going forward. Bircan Unver  41:43 Thank you. This is also another important, I think, milestone for us. The first in connection with the UN, associated with the in the formerly United Nations Department of Public Information, and then it has changed to Department of Global Communications. Officially, we've been associated since 2005, active and good standing, and we are able to be presented at the UN with six representatives, and therefore we are able also to reflect back to our committee's networks from the UN and it's two ways. I really like the concept two ways messaging, and then always environment in somewhat it involves in our programs. But let's say through water, through energy, through, for instance, when the forest fires really burns my heart. So being sensible and trying to, as much as I could, to attend the meetings, especially MDGs for the first phase of the Millennium Declaration, really, it's. I consider UN is the best school I ever had, and it's for me lifetimes to call, and I learn about so many countries I will never otherwise know them much. Some of the names you hardly hear in media and anywhere else, so it's kind of opens and to see the global spectrum. Also, one of the things I really love at the UN, whether you you are a ambassador or president or prime minister of a country that has maybe a population 1 million or 2 million or 1 billion or two 1.6 billion, the largest one, so you have the same minutes of speaking time, same voting, especially of course, I'm talking about the general assembly. So those things I follow up, and we try to incorporate time to time. And water issue always, I wanted to involve. I want to do something about, but it's just not like because I love the tourists, and I'm not, you know, scientist, so I'm not officially trained. So also, I'm not able to protect the, you know, fires in the forest. And every year it's getting worse and worse. And then I'm sensible, but you know, you can't do much about it. And eventually, although our last name is same, but we are not blood connected. Professor Oljoymer, at the time he was vice president for the UN Water at the UN, and we connected. And I was following up, and I was aware his work before we met. We connected through the UN. So then, especially during the COVID era, then when I've seen his speeches, natural-based solutions, and then his piece on smart water, so I propose him if we can do something. About water, and then he was very supportive, very kind, very modest. We had our first water program on the World Water Day in March 2001 and then it has turned out an annual program, and we kind of made the global connections and collaborations, and especially first three, four of them, Professor Olja led and guide, and also we worked together in a sense that I brought one part of the speakers and he brought other parts. So it was also great, diverse speakers and also the level of the speakers from whether civil society, academia, UN, and youth, all that. So we already presented six of them, and 2023 we were part of the UN Water Conference. We presented a program, and then last year we participated and presented a program site event in Nice on the Ocean Conference, and we kind of we also had previously on the ocean again. So plastic also become whether ocean, whether water, whether land life, like plastic, is becoming a huge in every level. Not plastic, but also chemical, all all sorts of polluters on in environment. So then we become promoting, producing, and there are really great level of academicians and experts, and they also like to share and connect their research and their findings. So it's a platform to break down together, and then when it is a video, when it is posted as both a summary along with the full presentation or speech, so it becomes a really source where you know you can find diverse voices, diverse solutions, diverse ideas, and also we align them in support of the UN days, UN conferences, SDGs, sustainable development goals like Water Days. Also, we collaborate with an organization in India, IGEN Green Institution, Green Engineers Institute of Green Engineers. So they are focusing on energy SDG seven. So we contribute them, bringing speakers. Bircan Unver  47:40 So then they join us to our program. So really, it's an organic volunteer base. So that that actually, I was so proud that we got a call, invitation to submit the application for this accredited status, and it was June 2025 after the ocean conference. I think ocean conference kind of brought them cumulatively and maybe brought their attention. And then October they asked our official documents, the bylaws and and certificate of organization, which is the regular require any formal application at the UN, and then I I submitted them in I think it was October 1525 but I haven't heard anything, and then I thought maybe you know they didn't consider, and then literally a year later, in June, last June, we got approval, and with a, it's not just accredited for a special one particular conference. It is an observer status assembly to contribute draft ideas. I mean, to contribute drafts, draft resolution to observe, to participate, and then also to be responsible to provide every four-year quadrennial report. Let's say if we fail to produce contribution at any level to this cause, then you know we may lose that observed status, but of course we'll do our best to contribute and to continue. Michael Hingson  49:27 With all of the work that you've done in all of this, I want to come back to World Water Day in a moment. But with all the work that you've done and all the the the things that you've done in public television and so on, when you host these meetings or you participate in these meetings, do they get televised? Also, are you able to bring those to to the public through public television? Bircan Unver  49:53 When it is Zoom, then I edit within my time slot within the limits of. Time slots and QPTV provides two different time slots. One is 20-eight minutes, the other one is 50-eight minutes. So then, let's say if it's two-hour session, I you know a little bit edit and then title, etc. and part one, part two, and also depending on the length of the session or 20-eight minutes. So then I schedule them through the local channels, as we spoke at QPTV. Also, I make them available through our vmail.com/lmtv channel on web on the web. Also, when we have a summary or outcomes, so we also provide those links and share through social media. Try our best to make those information available, visible, and reachable. Michael Hingson  50:51 Well, that I'm glad you do that. I'm glad that it gets to be something that is a lot more publicized than you just attending a meeting-that's important, I would think, to do when when you talk about World Water Day and so on. One of the things that that I I understand you do is you compare water security directly with cybersecurity and gender equality. Those are three different sorts of things when you include water security. Tell us more about that. Bircan Unver  51:24 This was our latest program in last March, and we had in our prior program on AI a discussion on AI a public discussion on AI policy or AI arc. So he's a professor and at the SUNY, and he's a mathematician, and he's also teaching cybersecurity. And when I was talking about when we met about the water conference upcoming, actually in this December, in the United Emirates on I think December six to eight. Even I was thinking to attend, but I wanted part a bit this time virtually instead of going there. So when we were talking about and and I really like this idea and I say as I asked exactly what you asked for, and then his really statement explanation made great sense because everything is nowadays control troy some form of electronic or AI or a combination of those systems, right? Competing systems. So if or if there is a technical issues, that's one case. But if there is a hack, especially water is the life source for everyone, whether you are billion or trillion, or you are you know ordinary people on the you know everyday life. So water is the source for everything, including producing the energy. AI. So water is the life itself. So then, when he said, if any hacking, whether you know small you know some you know people with a bad intention or some maybe big corporation because some profit purpose they want to sell more you know bottled water whatever or some international security issues you you may name this many other things. So if a computer system, if the control mechanism, if the AI system, whatever that combination in that system, is hack, then everything is a huge risk, and that's number one. How it connects with the water. Also now you know we smart how everything is electronic. Everything and then when that somewhat the life collapses there. So including water, including energy. So everything is so much you know interconnected. And then how that the gender equality came. Also, we follow Michael the UN annual-based dedication team for each UN Day or conferences. For instance, last year, water and gender equality, because water and gender required is also so inseparable concept and conditions in many parts of the world, and then also our professor Emre Tokus, he also. Make beautiful connection that if woman or when woman, if and when women are more in the security, cyber security, IT technology sectors, they are more sensitive. They are more like maybe natural in their dealings, like mother protection. So more protective, so there is less risk than where it is now. So to increase the gender equality, both not burden on the woman, you know, where it's the water scarcity that woman has to carry the burden. Girls, even five, seven years old, when developing countries, when it comes to developing countries, and then if the girls are, and also that was staggering. Stats he gave sort of shocked me today because he is a professor at SUNY. So what I mean by that, he said one of his class has only four girls out of 31. of his class has only one girl. One of his class doesn't have no girl. So even though if if girls are girls are not getting in this field, how we gonna bring the gender balance in all cross-cutting sectors of society. So that's how both from the UN perspective, the dedication team, also cybersecurity, the profile from a university that girls are not showing attention, interest studying cybersecurity. That was the fact based on his class last semester. One Michael Hingson  56:46 of the things that you have done, as I understand, is you've written several books. Bircan Unver  56:53 Yes, there are more, but hopefully I could get work on them, publish them as well. The my first book was Michael, based on my interviews with artists and my reviews on art exhibits, and also when I had questionnaire surveys like with artists, galleries, academicians, professors, students. When I before my first life prior prior the U.S. So when I went back after four years and I was really eager to get in a job for as a TV producer and somewhat that didn't work despite all my efforts even I my project load and everyone was after me, but they want to take the project, but not give me the role what I deserve for. So then I kind of close myself, and then I said I want to compile my books, my articles, my interviews. So that was how my first book came about in Turkish. To create is the most sacred. So, like the value to give the highest value for the creativity, intellectual production. That is through all those interviews, reviews, and questions. So that's that was the first book. The second book is in a way a bridge again between U.S. and Istanbul, New York and Istanbul, or maybe L.A. New York and Istanbul. Because when I came in, also I've done freelance journalism, so I wrote some you know reviews and the magazine. I used to, you know, send and appear my interviews and reviews. So and it was include not too frequent, but it was include some of major exhibits, both from LA and also from the Metropolitan Museum in MoMA in New York. Also Turkish artists here. So I met them, you know, when I was living. I started living in here. So then I a combination of those, and also that was another metaphor developed in my mind when I was Istanbul. I was feeling like the labyrinths of arts. So that's my second book title in Turkish labyrinths in arts. So like you are like this kind of narrow and small world in Istanbul art worlds and very high competition, and then nobody expanding to New York and LA expansion means bringing some, for instance, Franz Bacon, Thomas Hart Benton, and Max Ernst and Marina Magritte. Those also the last part connecting with the New York Istanbul from my art based on my art background. Michael Hingson  59:51 So, were any of the books published in English? The Bircan Unver  59:54 last 120, 23 is English, but. It is a compilation concept is written me. I directed the project, and of course I have some pieces also beside the concept. But it is a compilation by 24 contributors. It is based on the JUC Media Research Writing Awards 2021 and 2023 High School Awards Project, and also it is also engaging the youth to involve the UN programs at an early age and encourage them award them. So that also the next one is going to be on the Water Action Decatur in the same line, same concept, and also I have a book project since 2022 I couldn't still 2022 2020 actually. I dream, therefore I am. I have 80% of the book manuscript is ready, but I couldn't finalize it, and so the other one also I was hoping but couldn't to have a book for the 25th anniversary of the latentium. Unfortunately, it didn't happen. It's a little bit seemingly not going to happen this year to come up 25th anniversary of late millennium, but I had 20 anniversary of the late millennium in Turkish, and so this is completely different issue because I introduced like Millennium both in Turkish and in English, so it's like Tiffany Sister is the Turkish one, and then I formed Turkish sister in 2010, and then so on the 20th anniversary of the Turkish organization, as it is association, official association. So I compile the first part, the concept vision, very much like Millennium, because it's the system. But the second part based on the programs, activities, and challenges in Istanbul. So this book also in English will be first the the manifesto and the first all the history will be very much in English, the original one. But the second part is going to be completely, you know, selected ideas and projects and programs from the website and public programs from the last 20-five years, and it's hard hard things to do. It it's very challenging. I couldn't do it. Michael Hingson  1:02:47 It's it's a lot of work. Well, Berjan, I I want to tell you that we have now been talking for more than an hour. Time flies when you're having fun. Man, I'm going to go. I'm going to have to go ahead and and end our time, but we'll have to do this again and and continue the discussion. But I really appreciate you taking the time to be here, and I hope that people will monitor your programs and and and read your books if they can read Turkish or English, whichever works. Troy Bircan Unver  1:03:18 has so many English pieces, and now everyone welcome to look out our website. And what's the Michael Hingson  1:03:26 website again? Bircan Unver  1:03:28 lmglobal.org. Michael Hingson  1:03:32 lmglobal.org. Okay. Bircan Unver  1:03:34 Yes, but the whole archive from 2019 to 2000 no, 2019 no. of course not 2019 1999 to 2018 The archive. Our initial website is light millennium.org Millennium is with double N double N. So the everything we are talking about, all the process, our UN programs, and the reports from the UN NGO briefings, some conferences we participated. If anyone has any question, I'll be happy to provide the link and you know to contact them. Michael Hingson  1:04:17 And we will put that information in the show notes, the notes for the podcast. So I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely informative. I really appreciate your time, and I hope the programs continue to go well. So I want to thank you again for being here, and this has just been a lot of fun. Bircan Unver  1:04:39 Thank you so much, Michael Kingston, it is great honor and privilege. Especially, you are a hero, and your your story is amazing, and you are also taking really one of the challenges works like producing these programs, and we never met in real life. And then this is also like Millennium and your work. How we connected through? Otherwise, there was no like regular environment or database environment that we could meet. Your work and your dedication and your inspiring contribution really connected us and bring us together in this session. Thank you, and I'm really grateful for that. Michael Hingson  1:05:29 Thank you for being here with me on Unstoppable Mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to michaelhingson.com and download my free ebook, Blinded by Fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset

I have mentioned before a program I attend entitled Podapalooza. This quarterly event brings together podcasters, would-be podcasters and people interested in being interviewed by podcasters. This all-day program is quite fun. Each time I go I request interview opportunities to bring people onto Unstoppable Mindset. I never really have a great idea of who I will meet, but everyone I have encountered has proven interesting and intriguing.   This episode we get to meet Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett who I met at Podapalooza 12. I began our episode by asking Laura to tell me a bit about her growing up. We hadn't talked about this before the episode. The first thing she told me was that she was kind of an afterthought child born some 12.5 years after her nearest sibling. Laura grew up curious about many things. She went to University in Calgary. After obtaining her Master's degree she worked for some corporations for a time, but then went back to get her Doctorate in Organization Psychology.   After discussing her life a bit, Dr. Laura and I discussed many subjects including fear, toxic bosses and even something she worked on since around 2005, working remotely. What a visionary Laura was. I like the insights and thoughts Dr. Lovett discusses and I think you will find her thoughts worth hearing.   On top of everything else, Laura is a podcaster. She began her podcast career in 2020. I get to be a guest on her podcast, _Where Work Meets Life_TM, in May of 2025. Be sure to check out her podcast and listen in May to see what we discuss.   Laura is also an author as you will learn. She is working on a book about toxic bosses. This book will be published in January of 2026. She also has written two fiction books that will soon be featured in a television series. She tells us about what is coming.       About the Guest:   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett is an Organizational Psychologist, Keynote Speaker, Business Leader, Author, and Podcast Host. She is a sought-after thought leader on workplace psychology and career development internationally, with 25 years of experience. Dr. Laura is a thought leader on the future of work and understands the intersection of business and people.     Dr. Laura's areas of expertise include leadership, team, and culture development in organizations, remote/hybrid workplace success, toxic leadership, career development, and mental health/burnout. She holds a Ph.D. in Industrial/Organizational Psychology from the University of Calgary, where she is currently an Adjunct Professor.     As a passionate entrepreneur, Dr. Laura has founded several psychology practices in Canada since 2009, including Canada Career Counselling, Synthesis Psychology, and Work EvOHlution™ which was acquired in 2021.  She runs the widely followed podcast _Where Work Meets Life_TM, which began in 2020.  She speaks with global experts on a variety of topics around thriving humans and organizations, and career fulfillment.     In addition to her businesses, she has published two psychological thrillers, Losing Cadence and Finding Sophie. She hopes to both captivate readers and raise awareness on important topics around mental health and domestic violence.  These books are currently being adapted for a television series.  Dr. Laura received a Canadian Women of Inspiration Award as a Global Influencer in 2018. Ways to connect with Dr. Laura:   Email: Connect@drlaura.live   Website: https://drlaura.live/    LinkedIn: @drlaurahambley/    Keynotes: Keynotes & Speaking Engagements   Podcast: Where Work Meets Life™ Podcast   Author: Books   Newsletter: Subscribe to Newsletter   Youtube: @dr.laurawhereworkmeetslife   Facebook: @Dr.Laura.whereworkmeetslife   Instagram: @dr.laura__   Tik Tok: @drlaura__   X: @DrLaura_   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:     Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.     Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, wherever you happen to be, I want to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Mike hingson, and we have, I think, an interesting guest today. She's an organizational psychologist. She is a keynote speaker, and she even does a podcast I met Dr Laura through a function that we've talked about before on this podcast, Pata palooza. We met at pollooza 12. So that goes back to January. I think Dr Laura is an organizational psychologist. As I said, she's a keynote speaker. She runs a podcast. She's written books, and I think you've, if I'm not mistaken, have written two fiction books, among other things, but we'll get to all that. But Laura, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And thank you very much for being here.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 02:12 Well, thank you for having me, Michael. I really think the world of you and admire your spirit, and I'm just honored to be here speaking with you today. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:22 as I tell people when they come on the podcast, we do have one hard and fast rule, and that is, you're supposed to have fun. So if you can't have fun, forget about   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 02:30 it. Okay, alright, I'm willing to There   Michael Hingson ** 02:34 you go see you gotta have a little bit of fun. Well, why don't we start as I love to do with a lot of folks tell us kind of about the early Laura, growing up and all that, and kind of how you got where you are, if you will. Oh, my goodness, I know that opens up a lot of options.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 02:52 I was an afterthought child. I was the sixth child of a Catholic mother who had five children in a row, and had me 12 years later, unplanned, same parents, but all my siblings are 12 to 19 years older than me, so I was caught between generations. I always wanted to be older than I was, and I felt, you know, I was almost missing out on the things that were going on before me. But then I had all these nieces and nephews that came into the world where I was the leader of the pack. So my niece, who's next in line to me, is only three years younger, so it just it makes for an interesting dynamic growing up where you're the baby but you're also the leader. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 03:39 lot of advantages there, though I would think,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 03:42 Oh yeah, it taught me a lot about leadership. It taught me about followership. It taught me about life and learning the lessons from my older siblings of what you know, they were going through and what I wanted to be like when I grew up.   Michael Hingson ** 03:58 So, so what kind of things did you learn from all of that? And you know, what did, what did they teach you, and what did they think of you, all of your older siblings? Oh, they loved me. I was, I bet they were. Yeah, you were the baby sister.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 04:13 But I should add my mom was mentally ill, so her mental illness got worse after having me, I think, and I know this about postpartum, as you get older and postpartum hits, it can get worse later on and and she suffered with a lot of mental health challenges, and I would say that that was the most challenging part of growing up for me.   Michael Hingson ** 04:42 Did she ever get over that? Or?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 04:45 No, we just, I mean, it had its ups and downs. So when times were good, she was great, she was generous, she was loving. She was a provider, a caretaker. She had stayed at home her whole life, so she was the stay at home mom, where you'd come home from school. And there'd be hot, baked cookies and stuff, you know, she would really nurture that way. But then when she had her lows, because it was almost a bipolar situation, I would, I would say it was undiagnosed. I mean, we never got a formal diagnosis, but she had more than one psychotic break that ended her in the hospital. But I would say when she was down, she would, you know, run away for a few days and stay in another city, or have a complete meltdown and become really angry and aggressive. And, I mean, it was really unpredictable. And my father was just like a rock, just really stable and a loving influence and an entrepreneur like I am, so that, you know, he really helped balance things out, but it was hard on him as well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:48 I'll bet. Yeah, that's never easy. Is she still with us, or is she passed?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 05:53 No, she got dementia and she passed. The dementia was about 12 years of, you know, turning into a baby. It's so sad that over 12 years, we just she lost her mind completely, and she died in 2021 and it was hard. I mean, I felt like, oh, man, you know, that was hard. I you know, as much as it was difficult with her and the dementia was difficult. I mean, she was my mother, and, yeah, it was a big loss for me. And I lost my father at age 21 and that was really hard. It was a very sudden with an aneurysm. And so that was in 1997 so I've been a long time without parents in my life.   Michael Hingson ** 06:30 Wow. Well, I know what you mean. My father, in this is his opinion, contracted some sort of a spore in Africa during World War Two, and it manifested itself by him losing, I think it was white blood cells later in his life, and had to have regular transfusions. And eventually he passed in 1984 and my belief is, although they classified it as congestive heart failure, he had enough other diseases or things that happened to him in the couple of years before he passed. I think it was actually HIV that he died from, because at that time, they still didn't understand about tainted blood, right? And so he got transfusions that probably were blood that that was a problem, although, you know, I can't prove that, and don't know it, but that's just kind of my opinion.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 07:34 Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that, Michael, that is so, so sad.   Michael Hingson ** 07:38 Yeah. And then my mom was a smoker most of her life, and she fell in 1987 and broke her hip, and they discovered that she also had some some cancer. But anyway, while she was in the hospital recovering from the broken hip, they were going to do some surgery to deal with the cancer, but she ended up having a stroke and a heart attack, and she passed away. So Oh, my God. I lost my mom in 1987   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 08:04 and you know, you were young. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 08:08 I was, I was 37 when she died. So still, I missed them both, even today, but I I had them for a while, and then my brother, I had until 2015 and then he passed from cancer. So it happens, and I got married in 1982 to my wife, Karen, who was in a wheelchair her whole life, and she passed in 2022 so we were married 40 years. So lots of memories. And as I love to tell people all the time, I got to continue to be a good kid, because I'm being monitored from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I know I'm going to hear about it. So,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 08:49 you know, well, that's a beautiful, long marriage that the two of you had   Michael Hingson ** 08:55 was and lots of memories, which is the important things. And I was blessed that with September 11 and so on, and having written thunder dog, the original book that I wrote about the World Trade Center and my life, it was published in 2011 and I was even reading part of it again today, because I spoke at a book club this morning, it just brings back lots of wonderful memories with Karen, and I just can't in any way argue with the fact that we did have a great 40 years. So no regrets.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 09:26 Wow, 40 years.   Michael Hingson ** 09:30 Yeah. So, you know, it worked out well and so very happy. And I know that, as I said, I'm being monitored, so I I don't even chase the girls. I'm a good kid. Chris, I would point out none of them have chased me either. So, you know,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 09:49 I love your humor. It's so awesome. So we gotta laugh, Mark, because the world's really tricky right now. Oh gosh, isn't it? It's very tricky. And I'd love to talk. About that today a bit, because I'm just having a lot of thoughts about it and a lot of messages I want to get across being well, you are well psychologist and a thought leader and very spiritual and just trying to make a difference, because it's very tricky.   Michael Hingson ** 10:16 So how did you get into psychology and all that. So you grew up, obviously, you went to college and tell me about that and how you ended up getting into the whole issue of psychology and the things that you do. Well,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 10:30 I think being the youngest, I was always curious about human dynamics in my family and the siblings and all the dynamics that were going on, and I was an observer of all of that. And then with my mother and just trying to understand the human psyche and the human condition. And I was a natural born helper. I always wanted to help people, empathetic, very sensitive kid, highly sensitive person. So then when I went into psycho to university. We University. We call it up here for an undergrad degree, I actually didn't know what I wanted to do. I was a musician as well. I was teaching music throughout high school, flute and piano. I had a studio and a lot of students. And thought, well, maybe do I want to do a music degree? Or, Oh, maybe I should go into the family business of water treatment and water filtration that my father started for cities, and go in and do that and get a chemical engineering degree. Not really interested in that, though, no. And then just kind of stumbled my way through first year. And then I was really lost. And then I came across career counseling. And I thought, Okay, this is going to help me. And it did. And psychology lit up like a light bulb. I had taken the intro to psych course, which is more of a hodgepodge mix of topics. I'm like, yeah, and then, but when I looked at the second year courses in the third year and personality and abnormal psych and clinical psych and all of that. I thought, Oh, I found my place. This is juicy. This is interesting. And I want to help people. Is   Michael Hingson ** 12:09 this to say you fit right in when you were studying Abnormal Psychology? Just checking,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 12:14 yeah, probably okay. I actually didn't go down the clinical psych route, which is where it's the clinical psych and the psychiatrists that tackle more of the personality disorders. So I went into counseling psych, which is the worried well. We call it the worried well. So people like you and I who are going through life, experiencing the various curve balls that life has to offer, and I know you've been through more than your fair share, but it's helping people get through the curve balls. And I specialized in career, I ended up saying people spend most of their waking lives, you know, working or thinking about work as part of their identity. So I specialized in career development psychology in my master's degree.   Michael Hingson ** 13:01 Yeah, well, that's, that's certainly, probably was easier than flute and piano. You couldn't do both of those at the same time.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 13:07 I ended up having to, yeah, it became too much. I tried to for a while.   Michael Hingson ** 13:13 Yeah, you can play the flute or the piano, but kind of hard to do both at the same time. Oh,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 13:18 at the same time, yeah, unless you play with your toes, which I've seen people actually people do that, yeah, do Yeah. There's this one speaker in our national speakers group, and he he does a lot with his toes, like I remember him playing the drums with his toes at his last keynote. So I was just amazed. So horn with no arms and does everything with his feet. So I bet he could do some piano too. There you go.   Michael Hingson ** 13:49 But then, of course, having no arms and he would also have a problem doing piano at the same time. But, you know, that's okay, but still, so you went into to psychology, which I find is a is a fascinating subject. Anyway, my interest was always in the physical sciences, so I got my master's degree in physics, although I did take a couple of psychology courses, and I enjoyed it. I remember the basic intro to psych, which was a lot of fun, and she's had a real hodgepodge, but still it was fascinating. Because I always was interested in why people behave the way they do, and how people behave the way they do, which is probably why I didn't go into theoretical physics, in a sense. But still it was and is very interesting to see how people behave, but you went off and got your masters, and then you also got a PhD along the line, huh?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 14:47 Yeah, that was interesting. I did the Masters, and then I always did things a little differently. Michael, so all of my peers went on to become registered psychologists, which, which means you have. To go through a registration process, and instead, I got pulled into a.com company. We called them dot coms at the time, because in 1999 when I started with a.com It was a big thing. I mean, it was exciting, right? It was and it was a career development related.com that had a head office in New York City, and I ended up leading a team here in Calgary, and we were creating these technologies around helping people assess their passions, their interests, their skills, and then link to careers. We had about 900 careers in our database, and then linking people to educational programs to get them towards those careers. So I remember coming up a lot of times to Rutgers University and places like that, and going to New York City and dealing with that whole arena. So I was, you know, from a young age, I'd say I was too young to rent a car when I flew there, but I had a team of about 15 people that I oversaw, and it was great experience for me at an early age of, okay, you know, there's a lot I'm learning a lot here, because I really wasn't trained in Business and Management at that time, right?   Michael Hingson ** 16:17 But you But you did it.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 16:20 I did it, yeah, I did it. And then I ended up working for another consulting firm that brought me into a whole bunch of organizations working on their competency models. So I did a lot of time in the Silicon Valley, working in different companies like Cisco, and I was just in this whole elaborate web of Okay. Organizations are quite interesting. They're almost like families, because they have a lot of dynamics there. It's interesting. And you can make a difference, and you can help the organization, the people in the workplace, you know, grow and thrive and develop. And I'm okay, you know, this is interesting, too. I like this. And then at that time, I knew I wanted to do a doctorate, and I discovered that organizational Psych was what I wanted to do, because it's the perfect blend of business and psychology. Because I'm a serial entrepreneur, by the way, so entrepreneurship, psychology, business, kind of the best of both worlds. Okay, I'm going to do that, so that's what I did.   Michael Hingson ** 17:24 That certainly is kind of cool. So when did you end up getting your doctorate?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 17:28 I finished that in 2005   Michael Hingson ** 17:31 okay, were you working while you were doing that? Or did you just go back to school full   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 17:36 time? I had to go back to school because the program was very heavy. It was a program where you could not work full time during it. I still worked part time during it. I was working hard because I was registering as a psychologist at the same time, I knew I wanted to register and become a psychologist, and I knew I wanted to get that doctorate, and there were times when I almost stepped away, especially at the beginning of it, because when you're out in the real world, and then you go back into academia, it's just such a narrow How do I explain this? How does this, how is this relevant? You know, all these journal articles and this really esoteric, granular research on some little itty, itty bitty thing. And I just really struggled. But then I said, So I met with someone I remember, and she she said, Laura, it's like a car. When you buy a car, you can choose your own car seats and color, and you know, the bells and whistles of your car, and you can do that for the doctorate. And I said, Okay, I'm going to make the doctorate mine, and I'm going to specialize in a topic that I can see being a topic that the world of work will face in the future. So I specialized in remote leadership, and how you lead a team when they're not working in the same office, and how you lead and inspire people who are working from home. And that whole notion of distributed work, which ended up becoming a hot topic in the pandemic. I was, I was 20 years, 15 years ahead of the game. Yeah. Well, that,   Michael Hingson ** 19:09 of course, brings up the question of the whole issue of remote work and stuff during the pandemic and afterward. What do you what do you think has been the benefit of the whole concept of remote work. What did people learn because of the pandemic, and are they forgetting it, or are they still remembering it and allowing people to to work at home? And I ask that because I know in this country, our illustrious president is demanding that everybody go back to work, and a lot of companies are buying into that as well. And my thought has always been, why should we worry about where a person works, whether it's remote or in an actual office, so long as they get the work? Done, but that seems to, politically not be the way what people want to think of it today.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 20:06 Yeah, it's, I mean, I have a lot to say on it, and I have years and years of data and research that supports the notion that it's not a one size fits all, and a blend tends to be the best answer. So if you want to preserve the culture and the collaboration, but yet you want to have people have the flexibility and autonomy and such, which is the best of both worlds. Because you're running a workplace, you're not running a daycare where you need to babysit people, and if you need to babysit people, you're hiring the wrong people. So I would say I'm a biggest fan of hybrid. I think remote works in some context, I think bringing everyone back full time to an office is very, very old school command and control, leadership, old school command and control will not work. You know, when you're trying to retain talent, when it's an employer's market, yes, you'll get away with it. But when it goes back to an employee's market. Watch out, because your generation Z's are going to be leaving in droves to the companies that offer flexibility and autonomy, same with some of your millennials, for sure, and even my generation X. I mean, we really value, you know, a lot of us want to have hybrids and want to be trusted and not be in a car for 10 to 20 hours a week commuting? Yeah? So,   Michael Hingson ** 21:27 yeah, I know I hear you, and from the baby boomer era, you know, I I think there's value in being in an office that is, I think that having time to interact and know colleagues and so on is important. But that doesn't mean that you have to do it every day, all day. I know many times well. I worked for a company for eight years. The last year was in New York because they wanted me to go to New York City and open an office for them, but I went to the office every day, and I was actually the first person in the office, because I was selling to the east coast from the west coast. So I opened the office and was on the phone by 6am in the morning, Pacific Time, and I know that I got so much more done in the first two to three hours, while everyone else was slowly filtering in, and then we got diverted by one thing or another, and people would gossip and so on. Although I still tried to do a lot of work, nevertheless, it got to be a little bit more of a challenge to get as much done, because now everybody was in and they wanted to visit, or whatever the case happens to be, and I think there's value in visiting, but I think from a working standpoint, if I'd been able to do that at home, at least part of the time, probably even more would have been accomplished. But I think there's value also in spending some time in the office, because people do need to learn to interact and know and trust each other, and you're not going to learn to trust if you don't get to know the other people.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 23:08 Yeah, totally. I agree with you 100% and I know from it. I on my own podcast I had the founder of four day work week global, the four day work movement. I did four episodes on that topic, and yeah, people are not productive eight hours a day. I'll tell you that. Yeah, yeah. So just because you're bringing them into an office and forcing them to come in, you're not gonna it doesn't necessarily mean more productivity. There's so much that goes into productivity, apart from presenteeism, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 23:45 yeah, I hear what you're saying, and I think there's, there's merit in that. I think that even when you're working at home, there are rules, and there you're still expected to do work, but there's, I think, room for both. And I think that the pandemic taught us that, but I'm wondering if we're forgetting it.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 24:06 Oh yeah, that's the human condition. We forget, right? We, we forget. We it's almost I envision an icy ski slope. I'm a skier, you know, being up here in Canada and the Rocky Mountains, but it's a ski slope, and you walk up a few steps, and then you slide back so easily, because it's icy, right? Like you gotta just be aware that we slide back easily. We need to be intentional and stay on top of the why behind certain decisions, because the pendulum swings back so far so easily. And I mean, women's issues are one of those things we can slide back so quickly. After like, 100 years of women fighting for their rights, we can end up losing that very, very quickly in society. That's just one of many examples I know all the D, E and I stuff that's going on, and I. I mean, it's just heartbreaking, the extent of that pendulum slapping back the other way, so hard when we need to have a balance, and you know, the right balance, because the answer is never black and white, black or white, the answer is always some shade of gray.   Michael Hingson ** 25:20 How do we get people to not backslide? And I know that's a really tough question, and maybe there's no there, there very well may not really be an easy answer to that, but I'm just curious what your thoughts are.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 25:37 That's a great question. Michael, I would envision almost ski poles or hiking poles. It's being grounded into the earth. It's being grounded into what are the roots of my values? What are my the values that we hold dear as human beings and as society, and sticking to those values, and, you know, pushing in to the earth to hold those values and stand up for those values, which I know is easier said than done in certain climates and certain contexts. And I mean, but I think it's really important to stand strong for what our values   Michael Hingson ** 26:20 are, yeah, I think that's really it. It comes down to values and principles. I know the late president, Jimmy Carter once said that we must adjust to changing times while holding to unwavering principles. And it seems to me you were talking about this being a tricky world. I thought that was an interesting way to express it. But I'm wondering if we're seeing all too many people not even holding to the unwavering principles, the sacrificing principles for political expediency and other things, yeah,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 26:53 yes, exactly. And we know about values that sometimes values clash, right? So you might have a value that you want to have a lot of money and be financially, you know, successful, yet you have the value of work life balance and you want a lot of time off and and sometimes those values can clash, and sometimes we need to make decisions in our lives about what value takes precedence at this time in our life. But I think what you're right is that there's a lot of fear out there right now, and when the fear happens, you can lose sight of why those values are important to you for more of a shorter term, quick gain to get rid of the fear, because fear is uncertain and painful for humans.   Michael Hingson ** 27:44 Well, I wrote live like a guide dog, which is the latest book that was, that was published in August of last year, and it's all about learning to control fear, really. And the reality is, and what I say in the book, essentially is, look, fear is with us. I'm not going to say you shouldn't be afraid and that you can live without fear, but what you can do is learn to control fear, and you have the choice of learning how you deal with fear and what you allow fear to do to you. And so, for example, in my case, on September 11, that fear was a very powerful tool to help keep me focused going down the stairs and dealing with the whole day. And I think that's really the the issue is that fear is is something that that all too many people just have, and they let it overwhelm them, or, as I put it, blind them, and the result of that is that they can't make decisions, they can't move on. And so many things are happening in our world today that are fomenting that fear, and we're not learning how to deal with it, which is so unfortunate.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 29:02 Yeah, you're right. And I back to your World Trade Center. So you were on, was it 778? 78 oh, my god, yeah. So to me, that must have been the scariest moment of your life.   Michael Hingson ** 29:17 I'm missing in a in a sense, no only until later, because none of us knew what was happening when the plane hit the building, which it did on the other side of the building from me and 1000s of others, and it hit above where we were. So going down the stairs, none of us knew what happened, because nobody saw it. And as I point out, Superman and X ray vision are fiction. So the reality is, it had nothing to do with blindness. The fact is, none of us knew going down the stairs. We figured out a plane hit the building because we smelled something that I eventually identified as burning jet fuel fumes, because I smell it every time I went to an airport. But we didn't know what happened. And. And and in a sense, that probably was a good thing for most people. Frankly, I would rather have known, and I can, I can say this, thinking about it a lot as I do, I would rather have known what happened, because it would have affected perhaps some of the decisions that I made later. If I had known that the buildings had been struck and there was a likelihood that they would collapse. I also know that I wouldn't have panicked, but I like information, and it's something that I use as a tool. But the fact is that we didn't know that. And so in a sense, although we were certainly worried about what was going on, and we knew that there was fire above us, we didn't know what it was all about.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 30:41 Wow. And I would say, so glad you got out of there. I Yeah, what a horrific experience. I was up there the year before it happened. And I think being up there, you can just sense the the height of it and the extent of it, and then seeing ground zero after and then going there with my son last June and seeing the new world trade, it was just really, I really resonate with your or not resonate, but admire your experience that you got out of there the way you did, and thank goodness you're still in this world. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 31:17 it's a weird experience having been back, also now, going through the museum and being up in the new tower, trying to equate where I was on September 11 and where things were with what it became when it was all rebuilt. There's no easy reference point, although I did some of the traveling around the area with someone who knew what the World Trade Center was like before September 11. And so they were able to say, Okay, you're standing in such and such a place, so you're standing right below where Tower One was. And then I could kind of put some reference points to it, but it was totally different. Needless to say,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 32:05 Yeah, no kidding, but I think the fear that you go through during a disaster, right, is immediate like so the fight flight response is activated immediately, and you're, you're put into this almost state of flow. I call it a state where you time just is irrelevant. You're just putting one foot ahead of the other, right, right, right? Whereas the fear that society is going through right now, I think, is a projecting out into the future fear. It's not surviving this moment. It's more about I want to make sure I have enough money in the future, and I want to make sure I have safety in the future, or whatever it is, and you're projecting out, and you're living in the future, and you're worrying about the future, you're not living in the present, and it makes people kind of go crazy in the end, with anxiety, because we're not meant to be constantly worried about the Future. The only thing we can control is today and what we put into place for a better tomorrow, but fearing tomorrow and living in anxiety is so unhealthy for the human spirit,   Michael Hingson ** 33:13 and yet that's what people do, and it's one of the things we talk about and live like a guide dog. Worry about what you can control and don't worry about the rest. And you know, we spend so much time dealing with what if, what if this happens? What if that happens? And all that does, really is create fear in us, rather than us learning, okay, I don't really have control over that. I can be worried about the amount of money I have, but the real question is, what am I going to do about it today? And I know one of the lessons I really learned from my wife, Karen, we had some times when when we had significant debt for a variety of reasons, but like over the last few years of her life, we had enough of an income from speaking and the other things that I was doing that she worked really hard to pay down credit card bills that we had. And when she passed, most all of that was accomplished, and I was, I don't know whether she thought about it. She probably did, although she never got to the point of being able to deal with it, but one of the things that I quickly did was set up with every credit card company that we use paying off each bill each month, so we don't accrue credit, and so every credit card gets paid off, because now the expenses are pretty predictable, and so we won't be in that situation as long as I continue to allow things to get paid off every month and things like that. But she was the one that that put all that in motion, and it was something she took very, very seriously, trying to make sure. It. She brought everything down. She didn't really worry so much about the future. Is, what can I do today? And what is it that my goal is? Well, my goal is to get the cards paid off. I can do this much today and the next month. I can do this much today, which, which I thought was a great way and a very positive way to look at it. She was very methodical, but she wasn't panicky.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 35:24 Mm, hmm. No, I like that, because panic gets us nowhere. It just It ruins today and it doesn't help tomorrow, right? Same with regret, regret you can't undo yesterday, and living in regret, guilt, living in the past is just an unhealthy place to be as well, unless we're just taking the learnings and the nuggets from the past. That's the only reason we need the past is to learn from it. You   Michael Hingson ** 35:52 have to learn from it and then let it go, because it's not going to do any good to continue to dwell on it.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 35:57 Yeah, exactly.   Michael Hingson ** 36:00 Well, so you, you, you see so many things happening in this world. How do we deal with all of it, with all the trickiness and things that you're talking about?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 36:10 Do you like that word, tricky? I like it. That's a weird word.   Michael Hingson ** 36:14 Well, I think it's, it's a different word, but I like it, it, it's a word that I think, personally, becomes non confrontive, but accurate in its descriptions. It is tricky, but, you know, we can, we can describe things in so many ways, but it's better to do it in a way that isn't judgmental, because that evokes attitudes that we don't need to have.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 36:38 Yeah, if I use the word scary or terrible, or, I think those words are, yeah, just more anxiety provoking. Tricky can be tricky. Can be bad, tricky can be a challenge,   Michael Hingson ** 36:52 right? Like a puppy, unpredictable, or, you know, so many things, but it isn't, it isn't such a bad thing. I like that.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 37:03 How do we navigate a tricky world? Well, we we need to focus on today. We need to focus on the things that we can control today, physically, mentally, emotionally, socially and spiritually, the five different arenas of our life and on any given day, we need to be paying attention to those arenas of our life and how are they doing. Are we healthy physically? Are we getting around and moving our bodies? Are we listening to our bodies and our bodies needs? Are we putting food into our bodies, and are we watching what we drink and consume that could be harming our bodies, and how does it make us feel? And are we getting enough sleep? I think sleep is a huge issue for a lot of people in these anxiety provoking times.   Michael Hingson ** 37:56 Well, I think, I think that's very accurate. The question is, how do we learn to do that? How do we teach ourselves?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 38:07 How do we learn to do all that   Michael Hingson ** 38:09 stuff? How do we how do we learn to deal with the things that come up, rather than letting them all threaten us and scare us?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 38:20 Oh, that's a big question. I think that well, the whole the five spheres, right? So if you're taking care of your physical health and you're making that a priority, and some people really struggle with that, and they need a buddy system, or they need professional helpers, right, like a coach or a trainer or a psychologist like me, or whatever it is that they need the extra supports in place, but the physical super important, the making sure that we are socially healthy and connectedness is more important than ever. Feeling connected to our tribe, whatever that is, our close friends. You know, whether we have family that we would consider friends, right? Who in our team is helpful to us and trusted allies, and if we can have the fingers of one hand with close people that we trust in our lives, that's that's great, right? It doesn't have to be 100 people, right? It can be a handful, over your lifetime of true allies to walk through this world together.   Michael Hingson ** 39:26 One of the things that I've talked about it a bit on this podcast, but I I love the the concept that I think I've come up with is I used to always say I'm my own worst critic, and I said that because I love to record, and I learned the value of recording speeches, even going back to when I worked at campus radio station at kuci in Irvine campus radio station, I would listen to my show, and I kind of forced all the On Air personalities. 90s to listen to their own shows by arranging for their shows to be recorded, because they wouldn't do it themselves. And then I sent recordings home with them and said, You've got to listen to this. You will be better for it. And they resisted it and resisted it, but when they did it, it was amazing how much they improved. But I as I recorded my talks, becoming a public speaker, and working through it, I kept saying, I record them because I'm my own worst critic. I'm going to pick on me harder than anyone else can. And it was only in the last couple of years because I heard a comment in something that I that I read actually, that said the only person who can really teach you anything is you. Other people can present information, they can give you data, but you are really the only one who can truly teach you. And I realized that it was better to say I'm my own best teacher than my own worst critic, because it changes the whole direction of my thought, but it also drops a lot of the fear of listening or doing the thing that I was my own worst critic   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 41:10 about. I love that, Michael. I think that's genius. I'm my own best teacher, not my own worst critic,   Michael Hingson ** 41:19 right? It's it's positive, it's also true, and it puts a whole different spin on it, because one of the things that we talk about and live like a guide dog a lot is that ultimately, and all the things that you say are very true, but ultimately, each of us has to take the time to synthesize and think about the challenges that we face, the problems that we faced. What happened today that didn't work well, and I don't use the word fail, because I think that also doesn't help the process. But rather, we expected something to happen. It didn't. It didn't go well. What do we do about it? And that ultimately, taking time at the end of every day, for example, to do self analysis helps a lot, and the result of that is that we learn, and we learn to listen to our own inner mind to help us with that   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 42:17 exactly, I think that self insight is missing in a lot of us, we're not taking the time to be still and to listen to the voice within and to listen to what we are thinking and feeling internally, because we're go, go, go, go, go, and then when we're sitting still, you know what we're doing, we're on our phones,   Michael Hingson ** 42:41 and That's why I say at the end of the day, when you're getting ready, you're in bed, you're falling asleep. Take the time. It doesn't take a long time to get your mind going down that road. And then, of course, a lot happens when you're asleep, because you think about it   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 43:01 exactly. And you know, I've got to say, however spirituality is defined, I think that that is a key element in conquering this level of anxiety in society. The anxiety in society needs to be conquered by a feeling of greater meaning and purpose and connectedness in the human race, because we're all one race, the human race, in the end of the day, and all these divisions and silos and what's happening with our great you know, next door neighbors to each other, the US and Canada. It's the way that Canada is being treated is not not good. It's not the way you would treat a neighbor and a beloved neighbor that's there for you. In the end of the day, there's fires in California. We're sending our best fire crews over. You know, World War One, where my grandpa thought and Vimy Ridge, Americans were struggling. British could not take Vimy. It was the Canadians that came and, you know, got Vimy and conquered the horrific situation there. But in the end, we're all allies, and we're all in it together. And it's a tricky, tricky world,   Michael Hingson ** 44:11 yeah, and it goes both ways. I mean, there's so many ways the United States has also helped. So you're not, yeah, you're not really in favor of Canada being the 51st state, huh?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 44:26 You know, no, yeah, I love America. I mean, I have a lot of great friends in America and people I adore, but I think Canada is its own unique entity, and the US has been a great ally in a lot of ways, and we're in it together, right, right? I mean, really in it together, and we need to stay as allies. And as soon as you start putting up a fence and throwing rocks over the fence to each other, it just creates such a feud and an unnecessary feud, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 44:55 Well, very much so. And it is so unfortunate to see. It happening. And as you said, I think you put it very well. It's all about we're friends and friends. Don't treat friends in this way. But that is, that is, unfortunately, what we're seeing. I know I've been looking, and I constantly look for speaking opportunities, home, and I've sent emails to some places in Canada, and a few people have been honest enough to say, you know, we love what you do. We love your story. But right now, with what's going on between the United States and Canada, we wouldn't dare bring you to Canada, and while perhaps I could help by speaking and easing some of that a little bit. I also appreciate what they're saying, and I've said that to them and say, I understand, but this too shall pass. And so please, let's stay in touch, but I understand. And you know, that's all one can do.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 46:01 Yeah, and it, it too shall pass. I mean, it's just all and then anxiety takes over and it gets in the way of logic. Michael Hingston would, hingson would be our best speaker for this option, but the optics of it might get us into trouble, and they just get all wound up about it. And I you know, in the end of the day this, this will pass, but it's very difficult time, and we need to say, Okay, we can't control what's going to happen with tariffs or next month or whatever, but we can control today. And, yeah, I just went on a walk by the river. It was beautiful, and it was just so fulfilling to my soul to be outside. And that's what I could control the day   Michael Hingson ** 46:41 that's right? And that walk by the river and that being outside and having a little bit of time to reflect has to help reduce fear and stress.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 46:54 It does it very much, does   Michael Hingson ** 46:58 and and isn't that something that that more people should do, even if you're working in the office all day, it would seem like it would be helpful for people to take at least some time to step away mentally and relax, which would help drop some of the fear and the stress that they face. Anyway,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 47:20 100% and I am at my office downtown today, and I can see the river right now from my window. And there's research evidence that when you can see water flowing and you can see trees, it really makes a difference to your mental health. So this office is very intentional for me, having the windows having the bright light very intentional.   Michael Hingson ** 47:44 I have a recording that I listen to every day for about 15 minutes, and it includes ocean sounds, and that is so soothing and just helps put so many things in perspective. Now it's not quite the same as sitting at the ocean and hearing the ocean sounds, but it's close enough that it works.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 48:06 That's beautiful. And you're going to come on to my podcast and we're going to talk a lot more about your story, and that'll be really great.   Michael Hingson ** 48:14 We're doing that in May.   48:16 Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 48:17 absolutely, and I'm looking forward to it. Well, how did you get involved in doing a podcast? What got you started down that road? Oh, your tricky podcast. Yeah.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 48:32 So I was running my company. So I have a company of psychologists in Canada, and we operate across the country, and we do two things really, really well. One is helping people navigate their careers at all ages and stages and make find fulfilling career directions. And then our other thing we do well is helping organizations, helping be healthier places to work, so building better leaders, helping create better cultures in organizations. So that's what we do, and we have. I've been running that for 16 years so my own firm, and at the same time, I always wanted a podcast, and it was 2020, and I said, Okay, I'm turning 45 years old. For my birthday gift to myself, I'm going to start a podcast. And I said, Does anyone else on the team want to co host, and we'll share the responsibilities of it, and we could even alternate hosting. No, no, no, no, no, no one else was interested, which is fine, I was interested. So I said, this is going to be, Dr Laura, then this podcast, I'm going to call it. Dr Laura, where work meets life. So the podcast is where work meets life, and then I'm Dr Laura, Canada's. Dr Laura,   Michael Hingson ** 49:41 yeah, I was gonna say there we've got lots of dr, Laura's at least two not to be   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 49:44 mixed up with your radio. One not to be mixed up completely different, right, in approach and style and values. And so I took on that started the podcast as the labor of love, and said, I'm going to talk about three. Three things, helping people thrive in their careers, helping people thrive in their lives, and helping organizations to thrive. And then, oh yeah, I'll throw in some episodes around advocating for a better world. And then the feedback I got was that's a lot of lanes to be in, Laura, right? That is a lot of lanes. And I said, Yeah, but the commonality is the intersection of work and life, and I want to have enough variety that it's stuff that I'm genuinely curious to learn, and it's guests that I'm curious to learn from, as well as my own musings on certain topics. And so that's what's happened. So it's it's 111 episodes in I just recorded 111 that's cool, yeah. So it's every two weeks, so it's not as often as some podcasts, but every episode is full of golden nuggets and wisdom, and it's been a journey and a labor of love. And I do it for the joy of it. I don't do it as a, you know, it's not really a business thing. It's led to great connections. But I don't do it to make money, and, in fact, it costs me money, but I do it to make a difference in the tricky world,   Michael Hingson ** 51:11 right? Well, but at the same time, you get to learn a lot. You get to meet people, and that's really what it's all about anyway.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 51:21 Oh, I've met some incredible people like you through doing it, Michael and like my mentor, Sy Wakeman, who wrote the book no ego that's behind me in my office, and who's just a prolific speaker and researcher on drama and ego in the workplace. And you know, I've, I've met gurus from around the world on different topics. It's been fabulous,   Michael Hingson ** 51:47 and that is so cool. Well, and you, you've written some books. Tell us about your books, and by the way, by the way, I would appreciate it if you would email me photos of book covers, because I want to put those in the show notes.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 52:03 Oh, okay, I'm going to start with my current book that it actually, I just submitted my manuscript the other day, and it's, it's about toxic bosses, and how we can navigate and exit and recover from a toxic boss. And I saw this as a huge problem in the last couple of years, across different workplaces, across different people, almost everyone I met either had experienced it or had a loved one experience a toxic boss. And so I said, What is a toxic boss? First of all, how is this defined, and what does the research say? Because I'm always looking at, well, what the research says? And wait a minute, there's not a lot of research in North America. I'm an adjunct professor of psychology. I have a team of students. I can do research on this. I'm going to get to the bottom of toxic bosses post pandemic. What? What are toxic bosses? What are the damage they're inflicting on people, how do they come across, and what do we do about it? And then, how do we heal and recover? Because it's a form of trauma. So that's what I've been heavily immersed in, heavily immersed in. And the book is going to really help a lot of humans. It really is. So that's my passion right now is that book and getting it out into the world in January 2026, it's going to be   Michael Hingson ** 53:27 published. What's it called? Do you have a title   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 53:30 yet? I do, but I'm not really okay title officially yet, because it's just being with my publisher and editor, and I just don't want to say it until actually, Michael, I have the cover so it's going through cover design. I have a US publisher, and it's going through cover design, and that's so important to me, the visual of this, and then I'll share the I'll do a cover reveal. Good for you, yeah, and this is important to me, and I think it's timely, and I really differentiate what's a difficult boss versus a toxic boss, because there's a lot of difficult bosses, but I don't want to mix up difficult from toxic, because I think we need to understand the difference, and we need to help difficult bosses become better. We need to help toxic bosses not to do their damage and organizations to deal with them. And it's just there's so many different legs to this project. I'll be doing it for years.   Michael Hingson ** 54:24 So what's the difference between difficult and toxic? Or can you talk about that?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 54:29 Yeah, I can talk about, I mean, some of the differences difficult bosses are frustrating, annoying. They can be poor communicators, bad delegators. They can even micromanage sometimes, and micromanagement is a common thing in new leaders, common issue. But the difference is that they the difficult boss doesn't cause psychological harm to you. They don't cause psychological and physical harm to you. They're not. Malicious in their intent. They're just kind of bumbling, right? They're just bumbling unintentionally. It's unintentional. The toxic boss is manipulative, dishonest, narcissistic. They can gaslight, they can abuse, they can harass, all these things that are intentional. Negative energy that inflicts psychological and or physical harm.   Michael Hingson ** 55:27 And I suspect you would say their actions are deliberate for the most part, for the most part, at   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 55:35 least, yeah. And that's a whole Yeah, yeah. I would say whether they're deliberate or not, it's the impact that matters. And the impact is deep psychological hurt and pain, which is, and we know the Psych and the body are related, and it often turns into physical. So my research participants, you know, lots of issues. There's there's research. Cardiovascular is impacted by toxic bosses. Your mental health is your your heart rate, your your digestion, your gut. I mean, all of it's connected. When you have a toxic Boss,   Michael Hingson ** 56:09 what usually creates a toxic boss? It has to come from somewhere   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 56:18 that stems back to childhood. Typically got it. And we get into a whole you know about childhood trauma, right? Big T trauma and little T trauma. Little T trauma are almost death by 1000 paper cuts. It's all the little traumas that you know you you went through, if they're unaddressed, if they're unaddressed, big T trauma is you were sexually assaulted, or you were physically abused, or you went through a war and you had to escape the war torn country, or those sorts of things I call big T and I've learned this from other researchers. Little Ts are like this. You know, maybe microaggressions, maybe being teased, maybe being you know, these things that add up over time and affect your self confidence. And if you don't deal with the little Ts, they can cause harm in adulthood as well. And so that's what, depending on what went on earlier, whether you dealt with that or not, can make you come across into adulthood as a narcissist, for example,   Michael Hingson ** 57:21 right? Well, you've written some other books also, haven't   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 57:25 you? Oh, yeah, so let's cheer this conversation up. I wrote two psychological thrillers. I am mad. I have an active imagination. I thought, what if someone got kidnapped by a billionaire, multi billionaire ex boyfriend who was your high school sweetheart, but it was 10 years later, and they created a perfect life for you, a perfect life for you, in a perfect world for you. What would that be like? So it's all about navigating that situation. So I have a strong female protagonist, so it's called losing cadence. And then I wrote a sequel, because my readers loved it so much, and it ended on a Hollywood cliffhanger. So then I wrote the sequel that takes place 12 years later, and I have a producing partner in in Hollywood, and we're pitching it for a TV series filmed as a three season, three seasons of episodes, and potentially more, because it's a really interesting story that has you at the edge of your seat at every episode.   Michael Hingson ** 58:28 Have those books been converted to audio? Also?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 58:33 No, no, I never converted them to audio. But I should. I should.   Michael Hingson ** 58:37 You should, you should. Did you publish them? Or did you have a publisher? I   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 58:41 published these ones. Yeah, a decade ago, a decade ago,   Michael Hingson ** 58:45 it has gotten easier, apparently, to make books available on Audible, whether you read them or you get somebody else to do it, the process isn't what it used to be. So might be something to look at. That'd be kind of fun.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 59:00 I think so. And I'll be doing that for my toxic boss book. Anyway, Michael, so I'm going to learn the ropes, and then I could do it for losing cadence and finding Sophie,   Michael Hingson ** 59:09 you'd find probably a lot of interested people who would love to have them in audio, because people running around, jogging and all that, love to listen to things, and they listen to podcasts, yours and mine. But I think also audio books are one way that people get entertained when they're doing other things. So yeah, I advocate for it. And of course, all of us who are blind would love it as well. Of   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 59:34 course, of course, I just it's on my mind. It's and I'm going to manifest doing that at some point.   Michael Hingson ** 59:41 Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely a heck of a lot of fun, and we'll have to do it again. We'll do it in May, and we may just have to have a second episode going forward. We'll see how it goes. But I'm looking forward to being on the your podcast in May, and definitely send me a. The book covers for the the two books that you have out, because I'd like to make sure that we put those in the show notes for the podcast. But if people want to reach out to you, learn more about you, maybe learn what you do and see how you can work with them. How do they do that?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 1:00:14 Sure, that's a great question. So triple w.dr, Laura all is one word, D R, L, A, u, r, a, dot live. So Dr, Laura dot live is my website, and then you'll find where work meets life on all the podcast platforms. You'll find me a lot on LinkedIn as Dr Laura Hambley, love it, so I love LinkedIn, but I'm also on all the platforms, and I just love connecting with people. I share a lot of videos and audio and articles, and I'm always producing things that I think will help people and help organizations.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:52 Well, cool. Well, I hope people will reach out. And speaking of reaching out, I'd love to hear what you all think of our episode today. So please feel free to email me at Michael H I M, I C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S i b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast and Michael hingson is m, I C H, A, E, L, H i N, G, s o n.com/podcast, wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value that. If you don't give us a five star rating, I won't tell Alamo, my guy dog, and so you'll be safe. But we really do appreciate you giving us great ratings. We'd love to hear your thoughts. If any of you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on our podcast, or if you want to be a guest, and of course, Laura, if you know some folks, we are always looking for more people to come on unstoppable mindset. So please feel free to let me know about that. Introduce us. We're always looking for more people and more interesting stories to tell. So we hope that that you'll do that. But I want to thank but I want to thank you again for coming on today. This has been fun,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 1:02:07 definitely, and I really admire you, Michael, and I can't wait to have you on where work meets life.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:02:18 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Happy Sunday, this week's episode has been in the works for QUITE a while and I am so so excited to finally share it with the world! I recently got to chat with Veronica Litt about her upcoming book Ugh, As If!: Clueless, the latest installment in ECW Press' Pop Classics Series. While tackling the book's titular topic of Clueless (1995) we also find ourselves chatting about the enduring allure of Paul Rudd, Litt's ideal reboot/continuation of the classic film, and the perpetual power of "guilty pleasures" or "girly media"⁠Follow OTS⁠⁠Map of Indie Bookstores⁠Listen to my previous interviews with Pop Classics Authors!⁠Jen Sookfong-Lee on My Own Private Idaho (1991)⁠⁠Michael Hingston on Calvin and Hobbes⁠⁠Andrea Warner on Dirty Dancing (1987)⁠⁠Bonus! My article about the book (which was blurbed by the publisher!)⁠Get Ugh, As If! (out June 3rd!)⁠On Paper/On The Same Page Books⁠⁠J.H. Gordon⁠⁠The City And The City⁠⁠A Different Drummer⁠⁠The Printed Word⁠⁠Odyssey Books⁠⁠Quail Ridge Books⁠

On today's Saturday Matinee, we explore the island of Redonda through an interview with Michael Hingston, author of Try Not to be Strange: The Curious History of the Kingdom of Redonda. Link to Across The Pond: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/across-the-pond/id1557842312Support the show! Join Into History for ad-free listening and more.History Daily is a co-production of Airship and Noiser.Go to HistoryDaily.com for more history, daily.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

On this week's special BONUS episode of On The Shelf, I got to speak with author, editor, and fellow podcast personality Jen Sookfong Lee about one of the hidden gems of her bibliography Gentlemen of The Shade: My Own Private Idaho. A short non-fiction book which details the life and legacy of Gus Van Sant's 1991 film of the same name. We dive into the book and movie at the core of this episode, of course, but also into Jen's life in writing thus far and how she has become the editor of the series this book belongs too. This was one of my favorite discussions yet so don't miss out! Follow Jen Follow OTS Link to my interview with Michael Hingston about Let's Go Exploring: Calvin and Hobbes another volume in the series! Get Gentlemen of The Shade Jen's Indie Recs (Canada) Iron Dog Books Upstart and Crow  Elliot Bay Books US Indie Stores Odyssey Books Quail Ridge Books

Hey Friends~  We welcome Michael Hingston, as our guest!  He is an extraordinary human who has been blind since birth.  Andy today, he shares his incredible story of escaping the World Trade Center with his guide dog, Roselle.  He offers  insights for parents of children with disabilities.  He will shift your perspective on disabilities and how you can empower your children to thrive! Today's inspirational guest will tell first hand what his parents did that helped him be strong, independent,  and enabled in the presence of disability.      Michael declares, “ Whether a disability is present or not, “the fact of the matter is that every child, every person, has gifts.  And as parents, you need to let those gifts develop in your child and you need to help encourage them.”  You will surely learn something today. I know I did!     Always cheering you on!  Dinalynn CONTACT the Host, Dinalynn:  hello@thelanguageofplay.com   ABOUT THE GUEST: Michael Hingson, blind since birth, was born to sighted parents who raised him with a can-do attitude., Michael rode a bike and learned to do advanced math in his head! He moved to California and attended college receiving a master's degree in Physics and a secondary teaching credential. Michael worked for high-tech companies in management roles until September 11, 2001 when he and his guide dog, Roselle, escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the WTC. They were then thrust into the international limelight where Michael began to share lessons of trust, courage, and teamwork as a public speaker. Mike is the author of the #1 NY Times Bestseller: “Thunder dog” – selling over 2.5 million copies. In 2014 he published his 2nd book “Running with Roselle”, A story for our youth. In August of 2024 Mike's third book, Live Like A Guide Dog, will be published. It can be preordered at https://www.christianbook.com/stories-overcoming-adversity-moving-forward-faith/9781496476555/pd/476555. Mike has Spoken to the world's elite including George Bush, and Larry King. He has appeared on hundreds of TV and Radio programs. Now he is hired by major organizations Speaking on perseverance, the importance of Teamwork and Trust, Moving from Diversity to Inclusion, and offering Adaptive Technology Training. CONTACT THE GUEST: speaker@michaelhingson.com   RESOURCES from The Language Of Play Sign Up for Free Summer - Parent Group Coaching:  Available Summer 2024 ONLY!   June 27,  July 24,  August 20   -  Register Here:   https://dinalynnr.systeme.io/group-coaching-2ddd5182-38d33cf4   Let's have a conversation about your thoughts, concerns, & wonderings!  Sign up for my newsletter! Newsletter Opt-in Sign up for FREE 21 Days of Encouragement in your inbox! Encouragement Sign-up Join my new FREE Facebook Community HERE! Sign up for a 15 min "Let's Meet Session" on zoom!  Let's Meet Session For Speaking Engagements or For 1:1 or Group Parent Coaching (virtual or live), contact me at hello@thelanguageofplay.com   If You Liked This Episode, You Will Want To Listen To These Episodes:  125 Kelley Coleman: Everything No One Tells You About Parenting a Disabled Child 147 What? Your Child Can't Read - And Has A HIGH IQ?? Lynne Roe shares a success story with dyslexia and dysgraphia 155 Does Your Language Build Courage In Your Child? Here Are 12 Examples of Courage-Building Phrases! 154 A Single Father of Triplets Shares His Success Story. Happy Father's Day! 156 Raising Your Creative Independent Thinker? Sharon Fillmore Helps You With These Wonderful Curious Children!    

Today on OTS, I got to talk with Michael Hingston and take a tour through the history of Calvin and Hobbes, perhaps the most influential comic strip we've seen so far, and talk about its perennial appeal, the journey of writing long form nonfiction and so so much more. Michael's Website Follow OTS Get LET'S GO EXPLORING Magpie Audreys Paper Birch (used bookstore) The Edmonton Bookstore Rare and Out of Print Books Porch Light Books (run by Michael!) Quail Ridge Books Odyssey Books

How can organizations effectively transition from a focus on diversity to creating a truly inclusive work environment? What steps can individuals and communities take to foster a culture of inclusion that goes beyond just acknowledging diversity? Join me as I talk with Michael Hingston about Moving from Diversity to Inclusion. Shifting from a mere emphasis on diversity to genuine inclusion is not only crucial for fostering equality and fairness but also for harnessing the true power of diverse perspectives and experiences. Key Notes:  Disability does not mean a lack of ability.  Everyone on the Earth has a disability.  How well do we prepare for emergencies?  You can control fear and make it a positive tool. Links: www.michaelhingson.com  Facebook, https://www.facebook.com/mhingson https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://www.facebook.com/Roselle911GuideDog/   Twitter, https://twitter.com/mhingson LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson  YouTube channel, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfCx2L9OVN38Dv4mX6udP8g Offer: You can download a free eBook about learning how to control fear by visiting www.blindedbyfear.net Bio:Michael Hingson, blind since birth, was born in Chicago to sighted parents who believed in raising their son with a can-do attitude. Treated like all other children in his family, Michael rode a bike, did advanced math in his head, and learned to read and write – Braille that is! He later went to college receiving a bachelor's and master's degree in physics along with a secondary teaching credential from the University of California at Irvine. Michael Hingson's life changed dramatically on September 11, 2001, when he and his guide dog, Roselle, escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the World Trade Center moments before it collapsed. Soon after, Michael and Roselle were thrust into the international limelight where Michael began to share his unique survival story and 9-11 lessons of trust, courage, heroism, and teamwork. He is the author of the #1 New York Times Best Seller: Thunder Dog –The True Story of a Blind Man, a Guide Dog & the Triumph of Trust – selling over 2.5 million copies Worldwide. In 2014 Mr. Hingson published his 2nd book Running with Roselle- which Is the first of its kind- A story for our youth shedding light on one of America's Darkest Days. Speaking to some of the world's most elite: from former President, George W. Bush to Larry King, to Fortune 500 companies and colleges and Universities Nationwide. After sharing his story of survival on hundreds of TV and Radio programs, Michael is now an Expert hired by many of today's major corporations and organizations. Speaking and consulting on the importance of Teamwork and Trust, Moving from Diversity to Inclusion, as well as offering Adaptive Technology Training – spearheading innovation for ALL! Support the show

Welcome back! In this second episode we discuss some literary news, specifically the passing of Nobel laureate Kenzaburo Oe and the US/Canada edition of the Republic of Consciousness Prize (chaired by our Lori Feathers) before moving onto a conversation on Tristan Egolf's Kornwolf. In the Marías portion we chat some more about Redonda and dive into All Souls and Dark Back of Time. Bonus points if you can guess exactly when we recorded this episode (hint: lime-sized hail in Dallas is a pretty good giveaway).If you're interested in giving the Republic of Consciousness longlist event a listen (and we know you are!), here's a link to a recording of that event.And if you're eager to hear more about Redonda and Try Not to be Strange (from one of our favorite presses, Biblioasis), here's a link to Lori's other podcast, Across the Pond, and the episode where she and Sam Jordison of Galley Beggar Press chat with Michael Hingston.Books mentioned in this episode: A Personal Matter by Kenzaburo Oe, translated by John Nathan The Last Werewolf by Glen Duncan the works of Amelia Gray Tristan Egolf's other novels: Skirt & the Fiddle and Lord of the Barnyard Try Not to Be Strange: The Curious History of the Kingdom of Redonda by Michael Hingston A Companion to Javier Marías by David K. HerzbergerClick here to subscribe to our Substack and do follow us on the socials, @lostinredonda across most apps (Twitter and Instagram for now; we're coming for you eventually #booktok).Music: “Estos Dias” by Enrique UrquijoLogo design: Flynn Kidz Designs

Peter Schneider speaks with author, journalist and publisher Michael Hingston about his remarkable book, Try Not to Be Strange: The Curious History of the Kingdom of Redonda. It tells, for the first time, the complete history of Redonda's transformation from an uninhabited, guano-encrusted island into a fantastical and international kingdom of writers. The Ottawa International Writers Festival is supported by generous individuals like you. Please consider subscribing to our newsletter and making a donation to support our programming and children's literacy initiatives. SUBSCRIBE: https://writersfestival.us5.list-manage.com/subscribe?u=8c60faf808d54738144cc85de&id=d2443cdbd3 MAKE A DONATION: https://writersfestival.org/about/donations

Sam salutes the great feminist publisher Carmen Calill, founder of Virago Press, and we dig into the Kingdom of Redonda and its literary legacy with Michael Hingston, author of Try Not to be Strange: The Curious History of the Kingdom of Redonda. 

Between the Caribbean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean lies the tiny island of Redonda. Uninhabitable by humans, Redonda is home instead to a variety of wildlife—including untold generations of seabirds that produce the island's prized source of fertilizer. Though it might not seem like much, this peculiar island is the figurative home of a fantastical and international community of writers, with a highly-contested lineage of kings that includes John Gawsworth, Jon Wynne-Tyson, Dylan Thomas, Umberto Eco, Javier Marías, Alice Munro, and Pedro Almodóvar. In an exclusive Festival Week episode of the Books & Ideas Audio podcast, author Michael Hingston discusses his new book—Try Not to Be Strange: The Curious History of the Kingdom of Redonda—in conversation with Naben Ruthnum, the author of A Hero of Our Time and Find You in the Dark, among other books.

How would you overcome extreme fear and panic and remain calm if you were in the World Trade Center's towering inferno on 9/11, and you were completely blind? Listen to a total triumph of trust in this horrific catastrophe as a blind man, Michael Hingston, describes his miraculous survival in the face of imminent death.

Carissa Halton and Michael Hingston talk about the important role that research plays in a writer's work.

How would you overcome extreme fear and panic and remain calm if you were in the World Trade Center's towering inferno on 9/11, and you were completely blind? Listen to a total triumph of trust in this horrific catastrophe as a blind man, Michael Hingston, describes his miraculous survival in the face of imminent death.

The New Year has arrived! In the first episode of 2019, Bryce sits down with fellow EPLers Allison DaSilva and Nancy Sheng to talk about the best (and not so great) books, movies, music, and video games from 2018. Tune in to find out their picks and learn why Mr. Rogers would be very proud of Nancy's make-believe skills. Our show notes on all the items that we discussed can be found on epl.ca.  Be sure to also check out our blog that features some of the top "overdue finds" of 2018 from our hosts and past guests like Jana G. Pruden, Natasha Deen, Michael Hingston and Rayanne Haines.  We would love to hear from our listeners so if you have any comments about the show or episode ideas please email us at podcast@epl.ca.  Don't forget to follow us on Facebook and on Twitter. Interact with Bryce on Twitter by using #EPLOverdueFinds. Our next episode will be available on Friday, July 18th. We'll be chatting with youth librarians Laura Young and Tamsin Shute about some of the best books for kids.    

Edmonton writer Michael Hingston joins Bryce and Kate Gibson in studio to chat about his book about Calvin and Hobbes called Let's Go Exploring. They discuss the legacy of the legendary newspaper comic strip and of course those infamous Calvin car decals. Michael also shares details about his new short story advent calendar and what it's like to work with comedian Patton Oswalt on Ghost Box. This is a must listen for any Calvin and Hobbes fan! Visit EPL.ca for a complete list of everything that we talk about it in this episode.  We would love to hear from our listeners so if you have any comments about the show or episode ideas please email us at podcast@epl.ca.  Don't forget to follow us on Facebook and on Twitter. Interact with Bryce on Twitter by using #EPLOverdueFinds. Our next episode will be available on December 7th. We'll be chatting about some of our favourite under the radar Christmas titles.

How would you overcome extreme fear and panic and remain calm if you were in the World Trade Center's towering inferno on 9/11 and you were completely blind? Listen to a total triumph of trust in this horrific catastrophe as a blind man, Michael Hingston, describes his miraculous survival in the face of imminent death.

Today our podcast connects with Michael Hingston and Natalie Olsen, co-publishers of Hingston & Olsen Publishing. Michael Hingston is also the editor of Hingston & Olsen, writer, and author of The Dilettantes (Freehand Books) and the upcoming Let's Go Exploring: Calvin and Hobbes (ECW Press). Natalie Olsen is also the designer of Hingston & Olsen and Kisscut Design, and has designed over 500 titles for publishers across North America. Producer: Jon-Barrett Ingels and Kevin Staniec Manager: Sarah Becker Host: Jon-Barrett Ingels Guests: Michael Hingston and Natalie Olsen

It has been an incredible two weeks. Julie and I moved all of our gear out of a storage locker and into this little house in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I am glad to be back on track with a Tuesday Gardening Show, and I think I have a good show for you today. After a couple weeks of short posts and podcasts, including the introduction of a new regular show called Midweek Motivation by the Coastal Cosmopolitan Tommy Cakes, we are gearing up for Garden Season 2018! In this post and podcast episode, I am going to discuss How to Develop A 2018 Garden Plan: what I am going to grow and how I am going to grow it. I am making some adjustments to my planting strategy based on conversations with Michael Bell, Scott Hebert, Doneil Freeman, Drew Sample, Greg Burns and other market farmers. While I am not going to grow commercially, I am going to adopt some of their concepts and principles to make my garden very productive in 2018. That is the plan, anyway! In case you are new to our podcast, blog and social media platforms, Small Scale Life is all about removing stress from our lives by living simply through: Gardening, Healthy living, and Having adventures along the way We are thrilled you are here and listening to our show or reading our blog. That means a lot to us, and frankly we wouldn’t do this if you weren’t part of our Small Scale Life. Before we begin this episode, let’s hear from some friends of Small Scale Life! Friends of Small Scale Life A Bee Friendly Compamy - Michael Jordan Are you interested in bees, beekeeping, honey or mead? If you are, you need to check out A Bee Friendly Company out of Cheyenne, Wyoming! Michael Jordan, who is on The Survival Podcast Panel of experts and has been on the Small Scale Life Podcast, is an actual bee whisperer. I am constantly amazed by the work that Michael is doing to improve apiaries and communities in his backyard, at the local school and across the country. Michael is broadcasting information on Facebook Live every Wednesday at 5:00 PM Mountain (5 minutes at 5 PM), so check him out. If you are interested in bees, beekeeping, honey or mead, check out Michael Jordan’s A Bee Friendly Company on Facebook! Nature’s Image Farm – Greg Burns Great news, everyone! It is time to start planning for spring. Are you looking for comfrey, bees or trees? Greg Burns from Nature’s Image Farm has what you need. Nature’s Image Farm has Comfrey Bocking 4 and Comfrey Bocking 14 cuttings available for you today. Looking to start beekeeping and are looking for bees? Natures Image Farm has 5 frame nucs available now! Keep in mind that there is a deadline of February 10, 2018, so contact Nature’s Image Farm today. If you want to add trees to your property, Greg will also be updating tree bundles next week. Nature’s Image Farm will once again have exciting bundles availavle soon for urban homesteaders and farmsteaders including pawpaw, seaberry, rugusa rose, apple, pear, American chestnut, butternut, elderberry, mulberry, service berry and more. They have everything you need to start your own food forest or family orchard, which is pretty cool! Remember: Use code “SSL” for Small Scale Life for 10% off and free shipping, and let a real American hero Captain Lumbersquatch Greg Burns know that you heard about Natures Image Farms on Small Scale Life. Check out naturesimagefarm.com today! Tommy Cakes – Midweek Mindset and the Small Scale Life Facebook Group Thank you to our friends of Small Scale Life. Remember: if you have a product or a service that you would like to be discussed on Small Scale Life, contact me at realsmallscalelife at gmail dot com or use the “Contact Us” page on smallscalelife.com. News Before we begin, I want to go through some news items. First off, I am working on things behind the scenes to improve the Small Scale Life experience. It feels like we are getting momentum and starting to focus in on the message and direction of the blog and podcast. As part of that, we are going to start digging into Wicking Beds and launching Wicking Bed Nation, so stay tuned for that. Next, I get excited when I can connect groups of people. A great example of this was connecting Michael Bell with Michael Hingston from Aussie Flame Weeders, and I think these connections are happening in our Small Scale Life Community (on the blog, Facebook, and Instagram). To help connect people through Small Scale Life, a number of us are running or starting small businesses, and it is great to connect with folks and get your name out there. To help with that, I am working on developing a business directory on smallscalelife.com. We want to connect people. We want to connect our audience to your quality businesses and products. If you want to be included in our business directory, let me know. If you want to be included, contact us at realsmallscalelife at gmail dot com or use the “Contact Us” page on smallscalelife.com. Finally, I do have some exciting news! A company that makes the Coir product for Burpee heard my Potting Soil Challenge Podcast from last year, and they have reached out to me. This company would like to donate some Coir product for the school outreach I do each spring. I tried Coir bricks for the first time last year in the classroom, and the kids loved watching this brick of material turn into a growing medium. I really appreciate their interest, and I am really excited to work with this company and report on this in the future. Wow…that was a lot, but it good stuff to talk about with you. Enough of all that; let’s get back to the show! Introduction The Super Bowl is over, and we are almost to the middle of February. For gardeners, homesteaders and farmers in the northland, people are in high-gear planning and plotting for this year’s Growing Campaign. I know folks down in Texas, other southern states and our friends on the other side of the world in Australia and New Zealand are already in high gear, and I always need to keep that in mind! I am no exception. I have been planning what plants I want to grow this year and how I am going to fit everything in these limited gardens! For those of you who are new to the show, I moved last June to a relatively small urban lot in Minneapolis, Minnesota. At this new house, I inherited two four-foot by six-foot square foot gardens. These raised beds do need some love and attention because the wood is rotting, and I have a plan to replace them with Wicking Beds in the near future. Developing a Garden Plan Planning what vegetables and plants you grow feeds right into your overall gardening strategy and seed purchase. It is almost time to get those seeds ordered and started! If you are here, you fit into one of three categories: New gardeners who have never grown anything before. Somewhat experienced gardeners and really didn’t get the results we were hoping for. Seasoned veterans who have had literally tasted the success of gardening. No matter where you fall in the Gardening Spectrum, we all start at the same place at the beginning of the season: The Garden Plan. The Garden Plan is the foundation for your season’s success. It helps guide you through the seed catalogs, websites, seed kiosks and tables of live plants at the local greenhouse or big box store. Your Garden Plan is all about you. What do you want to grow? Where do you want to start? This can be overwhelming, and I have acted like a therapist talking with people who are overwhelmed by choices and options or talked with people who want to plant it all. The fact is: we can’t plant it all. We can’t grow it all. After all, according to the United States Department of Agriculture, there are 25,000 tomato varieties. Other sources say 10-15,000 varieties being actively cultivated worldwide. That is a lot of tomatoes! We can’t grow it all, so you might be asking, where do you start? Grow What You Eat When you start your 2018 Garden Plan, you really need to think about what you and your family will eat. It doesn’t make sense to grow a ton of tomatoes, eggplant or squash if no one in your family likes to eat them! Focus on what you eat and grow those things. For example: If you like salsa, you should look to grow tomatoes, peppers, onions, and cilantro. If you like dill pickles, you should look at growing cucumbers, dill, onions and maybe some jalapeno peppers (to spice it up a bit). If you like pesto, you should grow basil and maybe some parsley. Think about what goes into your favorite dishes and recipes. Grow the things that you use often or can preserve for that long march in the winter between December and April. If you have trouble thinking about vegetables and herbs you use, take a notebook and keep a food log for a couple weeks. Write down the key vegetables and herbs you use on a daily basis. That can be a starting point for not only your Garden Plan but also your plan to prepare for tough times (some folks call it prepping or modern day survival). Write Out Your Garden Plan Once you have thought about those dishes, recipes and preserved foods, you can start to write down a list of vegetables and herbs that you want to grow this year. Start big; write them all down. I am serious: write all those vegetables and herbs down on a piece of paper. We will start with a “Pie in the Sky” Garden Plan and then start to hone it down to a manageable, realistic plan. How do you do that? Look at your available space in your growing area. Remember: your space in the garden might be very limited. Some of these plants can get pretty large (i.e., squash, zucchini, pumpkins and tomato varieties). You will need to balance your “Pie in the Sky List” with spatial realities (i.e., you want to grow pumpkins but are limited to a north-facing condominium balcony). I cannot emphasize this enough: do not waste your time and very valuable space for growing things that you and your family don’t like or won’t eat. Grow what you eat; otherwise, you will be making compost out of plants, herbs and vegetables that you do not eat. If you are tight on space or want to experiment with new vegetables and herbs, I recommend buying those items at the local Farmer’s Market, buying from a local farmer or finding a local gardener or friend who will trade with you. If you like those items, maybe you will expand your garden or work those items into your plan next year. If you have an opportunity to expand your growing area and grow more, there are a lot of options. We will discuss that in future posts and podcasts as well. My 2018 Garden Plan I started planning my garden in late January 2018. I sat down with my secret Small Scale Life Notebook (it has nuclear codes in it, trust me) and started roughing out my “Pie in the Sky” Garden Plan. As I wrote everything out, I started to think about how the gardening season has gone for me over the past few years. I plant everything in one shot in mid to late May, and certain plants just don’t fare well in the hot days in late June and July. Some plants, like spinach, lettuce, sugar snap peas and other greens, actually prefer cooler weather. I decided to develop a two stage approach to my Spring Garden Plan. As you can see in the image, I am going to plant greens, green onions and sugar snap peas in the early spring (i.e., April). These plants tend to grow quickly, and I can get a harvest before the Late Spring Stage kicks off. In the Late Spring Stage, I am going to plant the bulk of the other vegetables and herbs after the first frost date (May 10 in Zone 4B – Twin Cities). I will intercrop the Late Spring Stage Plants with the Early Spring Stage Plants. That means I will plant tomato starts next to sugar snap peas, and I will use companion guides to intercrop the peppers, onions, and greens. The other thing you might notice is that I don’t have enough room for all of the Late Spring Stage Plants. I have two four by six foot raised garden beds, and while they can handle a lot of plants, I am going to need more capacity. It is time to show you my plans for constructing and operating wicking beds. It is time to launch Wicking Bed Nation! Putting It All Together Newbie or experienced gardener, we all start at the same place in the Long March of Winter. Before you get overwhelmed with the seed catalogs, websites, seed stands or plants available at the local greenhouse or big box store, do some planning! Develop that basic foundation that will set you up for success this year by following these steps: Develop your Pie in the Sky List Narrow the Pie in the Sky List down by visualizing your available growing space and what you and your family actually will eat If you want to experiment with new vegetables and herbs, plan to purchase them at the store, farmers market, local gardener or trade with someone If you can expand your growing area, go for it! We will discuss some ideas that you might want to try this year! Your Turn I am curious about your 2018 Garden Plan. How do you plan your garden? Have you completed this process yet? Have you purchased your seeds yet? Put your thoughts and experiences in the comments section of this post on smallscalelife.com or join the Small Scale Life Facebook Group and share your experiences there. What’s Next? In our next Gardening Podcast, I will be walking us through some seed catalogs and purchasing seed. It is time to move ahead with my 2018 Garden Plan and take it to the next level. I will also start discussing my Wicking Bed plans, so stay tuned for that. In addition, we are lining up some more guests for the podcast. I am going to talk about Minimalism with my wife Julie, Homesteading with Greg Burns and the Urban Farming on the February Bellcast with Michael Bell. Stay tuned, I feel that we are off to a strong start to the year and really starting to get some great momentum! Thank you again for listening to the Small Scale Life Podcast and visiting smallscalelife.com. We appreciate you and your time. Our wish for you is that you remove some of that stress in your life and live simply this week. This is Tom from Small Scale Life, and we’ll see you next time! Take care, everyone!

Find out how Edmonton helped to create the crowd maneuver, The Wave, loved and loathed across the sports world. We'll hear from writer Michael Hingston and the inventor himself, Krazy George.

I’m so happy to share with you the interview I had with writer, father, and thinker of cool thoughts, Micheal Hingston. Micheal is an author and journalist, with articles written in The Guardian, The Walrus, Salon, The National Post, Wired, etc etc etc. Mike is also one of the guests that was referred to me by another guest because he wanted to really expand his thoughts on fatherhood, and wanted to share a specific topic. I have to say, I love when both of those things happen, when a guest is referred by another guest, and when they come by with something specific they want to discuss. In this case it was of the nurturing value of a father kissing his son, and how and why he believes it’s important for every father to kiss their son. Between all that, we chat about what it is to raise a son and daughter, what’s it like to be conflicted about a sport you love, and his views about his father.  You can see what Micheal has been up to, and read his articles at his website  You can also buy his book The Dilettantes in Amazon or his other project, The Short Story Advent Calendar. Michael also mentioned a series of books he's been reading called The Neapolitan Novels and they are done by Elena Ferrante. And last but not least, give Michael a follow on Twitter and tell him how much you liked hearing his voice

This hour, we sink our teeth into, well, teeth! We find out why oral hygiene is so important to our health, and why Americans are so obsessed with straight, white smiles.A little later, Canadian writer Michael Hingston tells us the fascinating history of the tooth fairy. Support the show: http://www.wnpr.org/donateSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.