Podcasts about tower one

The lessons I carried away from September 11 did not begin that day, and they certainly did not end there. In this solo episode, I reflect on how my parents taught me not to accept the limits others placed on blindness, how my guide dogs taught me about trust and teamwork, and how September 11 confirmed so much of what I already believed about fear, leadership, change, and possibility. I share why I work hard not to worry about things I cannot control, why I believe we can never truly go back to “normal,” and why strong teams are built through trust rather than control. I also challenge some of the ways we think about blindness and disability, because different does not mean less capable. I hope these lessons help you think differently about fear, change, leadership, and what it really means to live with an unstoppable mindset. Highlights: 00:46 – Why the lessons of September 11 began long before that day. 08:56 – How Michael learned that blindness is not the real barrier. 17:13 – Why focusing on what you can control can reduce fear. 24:28 – Why getting back to “normal” is not always the answer. 32:30 – What guide dogs taught Michael about trust and teamwork. 1:01:37 – Why disability does not mean a lack of ability. About the Host: Michael Hingson, blind since birth, was born in Chicago to sighted parents who believed in raising their son with a can-do attitude. Treated like all other children in his family, Michael rode a bike did advanced math in his head and learn to read and write – Braille that is! Michael's family relocated to the warm Palmdale area of California when he was five years old. It is here that Hingson had his first adventure with Guide Dogs for the Blind and received his first guide dog. He later went to college receiving a bachelor's and master's degree in Physics along with a secondary teaching credential from the University of California at Irvine. Michael then enjoyed a nearly-30-year career working for high tech companies spending most of his time in management roles. Michael Hingson's life changed dramatically on September 11, 2001 when he and his guide dog, Roselle, escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the World Trade Center moments before it collapsed. Soon after, Michael and Roselle were thrust into the international limelight where Michael began to share his unique survival story and 9-11 lessons of trust, courage, heroism, and teamwork. Mike has served as The National Public Affairs Director for one of the largest Nonprofit organizations in the nation: Guide Dogs for the Blind; He has served as the vice president of the National Association of Guide Dog Users; Michael has held a seat on the Fort Worth Lighthouse for the Blind. He is the chair of the board of directors of the Earle Baum Center for the Blind  and is the vice chair of the Colorado Center for the Blind; Michael is The National Ambassador for the Braille Literacy Campaign of the National Federation of the Blind. Until October 2019 he worked as the CEO of the Do More Foundation, the non-profit arm of Aira Tech Corp, a manufacturer of assistive technology which makes a revolutionary visual interpreter for blind people. In January 2021 Mike joined accessiBe as its Chief Vision Officer to help advance the company goal of making the entire internet fully inclusive. He held this position through June of 2026. He is the author of the #1 New York Times Best Seller: “Thunder dog –The True Story of a Blind Man, a Guide Dog & the Triumph of Trust” – selling over 2.5 million copies Worldwide. In 2013 Mr. Hingson published his 2 book “Running with Roselle”- which Is the first of its kind- A story for our youth shedding light on one of Americas Darkest Days. Mr. Hingson's third book, “Live Like A Guide Dog”, was released on August 20, 2024. This book shows readers how they can learn to control fear and not, as Mike would say, “become blinded by fear in the face of crisis”. Aside from his talents and advocacies, Mr. Hingson has traveled the Globe from Japan to New Zealand, the Netherlands to his hometown, Chicago. Speaking to some of the world's most elite: from former President, George W. Bush to Larry King, to Fortune 500 companies and colleges and Universities Nationwide. After sharing his story of survival on hundreds of TV and Radio programs, Michael is now an Expert hired by many of today's major corporations and organizations. Speaking and consulting on the importance of Teamwork and Trust, Moving from Diversity to Inclusion, as well as offering Adaptive Technology Training – spearheading innovation for ALL! - Thus, bringing organizations to the forefront of the ever-changing competitive modern world. In June, 2024 Mike was inducted as an alumni member into the honors Fraternity Phi Beta Kappa. Currently Michael lives in Victorville, California with Alamo, Michael's eighth guide dog and his rescue feline, Stitch. More information on Mr. Hingson is available on his website. Here also is a link to Mr. Hingson's press kit: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/q8uxu9u7pap4puj5de7rg/h?rlkey=22bziy0wmghf8111kad73685y&dl=0 http://www.michaelhingson.com/live-like-a-guide-dog www.michaelhingson.com www.michaelhingson.com/podcast Facebook, https://www.facebook.com/mhingson https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://www.facebook.com/Roselle911GuideDog/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/1568642850718948 https://www.facebook.com/?paipv=0&eav=AfZNi2VDR2R4nC6SveyCvZIyKtyi9VOLOzOKcG-v0Hk1glaVssEHwdR920w1_u-8B-k&_rdr https://www.facebook.com/?paipv=0&eav=AfZNi2VDR2R4nC6SveyCvZIyKtyi9VOLOzOKcG-v0Hk1glaVssEHwdR920w1_u-8B-k&_rdr Twitter, https://twitter.com/mhingson LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson Youtube channel, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfCx2L9OVN38Dv4mX6udP8g Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! 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Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingson, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, hello, everyone. I am Michael Hingson. I am your host on Unstoppable Mindset, and this happens to be episode 475. Yeah, we've done a lot of these, and most all of them have been conversations with people who said that they wanted to come on the podcast and talk about one thing or another. And I was really pleased to have them. This episode is going to be a little bit different, as the last few have been. Episode 472, which we published on September 4, was a talk I gave in April of 2024, which told my story of being in the World Trade Center on september 11, on episode 473 on the eighth of September, Michelle Abraham interviewed me, and we talked about a number of things around september 11 and so on. Episode 474, which was published on the 11th of September, 2026. was a conversation with Bob Ellis, who was in the Pentagon on September 11, 2001, an escape, and we hear his story, and we got to chat and kind of talked about notes from both of us. Now it's episode 475, and it was suggested that I ought to talk about things that I learned from September 11th and how my life has changed, and I'm going to do the best I can to talk about all that. So you're just going to be hearing me today. I hope you won't go away. I hope that you'll enjoy it. I just returned from speaking all week from September 9th through September 11th in Kilgore, Texas, at Kilgore College, they did an incredible job of doing some things to help people become aware of September 11th. They actually had in the library and around the library at Kilgore College a monument to September 11th. They had some columns or portions of columns from the World Trade Center. They had a list of all of the names. They had flags in a in a in several rows with the names of all of the people who were lost on September 11th. They had a timeline from my book Thunderdog: The Story of a Blind man, his guide dog, and the triumph of trust at Ground Zero-a timeline of what I experienced, and they also had, I think, a timeline of just the World Trade Center events in in general. Well, okay, so all of that happened. I got back last night, and now here it is, Sunday. It is the 13th of September, and I'm recording this so that we can publish it on Tuesday, september 15. So that's a little bit of a long way to get to where we are. But as I said, people asked me to talk about what I learned that day, and how I proceeded and progressed from that day, but I have to go back to long before September 11th to really do everything justice and to put it all in context. So let me start this way. I believe that I have said a few times on this podcast, and certainly in some of the speeches that I've given, that I was born two months premature, and I was given a pure oxygen environment when I was born, because I was born early. Medical science had started to hear that even too much oxygen might not necessarily be a good thing, but the doctors in Chicago where I was born didn't buy into that concept yet, and so the result was I was given a pre-oxygen environment, and my retinas didn't develop as they should, and I became blind. So was I born blind? If you're very technical, no. But for all intents and purposes, yes. The doctors told my parents to send me to a home, to send me away, because no blind child could ever. Michael Hingson  04:59 Grow up to amount to anything, and all I would be would would end up being a drain on my family, sucking up all the love that my parents might have had for their older son, two years older than I, my brother Ellery. But the reality is, my parents said you're wrong. He can grow up to do whatever he chooses, and we're going to give him that opportunity. And I grew up with that idea. I grew up with that concept. My parents told me at some point when I was still fairly young about what the doctors had said, and they said, "You know, we think that you can do whatever you want. We want you to have that opportunity. Well, they did a number of things to help the process along. For example, we lived in Chicago until I was five, but at the age of four, typically children in in Illinois start or in Chicago start kindergarten, and I did as well. My parents worked with other parents and the school district to start a kindergarten class for children who were blind, and there were a number of preemies in the Chicago area. In that class, Miss Lapree, my teacher, taught me Braille. See, I remember her name. Taught me Braille. Taught me other skills. Taught the other blind kids because it was a kindergarten class for blind children. Taught us all a variety of different things that we could use, and then unfortunately, in a sense, I guess after kindergarten at the age of four, and it was over, my father had gotten an offer and took a job out in California, and we moved to California. Well, in California, kindergarten starts at five, and even though I had had a course in kindergarten already, I had to go through a second year of it, but we didn't have any kind of facilities to teach us or teach me about Braille going forward, getting me Braille books and so on. So kindergarten, first, second, and third grade, I didn't have access directly to textbook material. My parents helped me though. My father taught me math. He was an electronics and electrical engineer. I was doing algebra in my head by the time I was six. My mother read other assignments to me, taught me the spelling words because in first, second, and third grade you learned to spell, and in theory beyond third grade as well, of course. But what happened for me was that I learned about spelling by my mother teaching me how to spell the words, and then she would say the words, and then I would spell them. Well, that ended up going even further because typically in classrooms, what happened was that when it came time to take the actual spelling test, which happened on Fridays, the teacher would say the words. All of us or all the children in the class would write down the answers. Then we would exchange papers, and the teacher would then write the correct spellings on the board. Not in my class. I had to. Well, I got to get up. I. I don't want to say I had to. That's a lesson that I want to get to. wasn't that I had to get up. I got to get up, and actually spell the words out loud. I remember once missing a word, at least starting to miss a word, and somebody made a noise, and I realized, oh, that must be wrong, and I corrected it. But I learned how to spell words, and I learned to spell them out loud for the whole class, and not be afraid of them, and that way students could grade each other's papers. And so, in a sense, I could say that's where I started to learn how to be involved in doing public speaking, and I learned not to be afraid of standing up and and saying things as long as they were the right kinds of things. Well, between third and fourth grade, I got access to Braille books. Cora Hershberger was hired by the school district to come in. She was a resource teacher with training in dealing with blindness and blind kids and so on. Michael Hingson  08:56 And there were a number of us, and she she was able to get us books, she was able to work with each of us and prove our Braille skills and my Braille skills especially, and so on. So I tell you all of that because I want to put things in perspective, and I think that the most important thing is the doctors told my parents that I couldn't do anything. My parents said, "Of course he can, and they brought me up believing that I could. So I rode a bicycle to school. Everybody still thinks that's amazing. One of the important things that I have learned over the years, and I've learned to articulate it even more effectively. I hope, certainly, I believe better since the World Trade Center, and I became a full-time keynote public speaker, which I've been doing for 25 years, I have learned to discuss this whole concept of blindness and accept the fact that there are going to be a lot of people who have eyesight who get it wrong. They think that, like the doctor said, blind people really can't do anything. You can't absorb the same material, or at least you don't get the same. As sighted people do, so you really aren't going to be able to do the things that we can do. And I have learned that I can't be angry at that. I've learned that in reality, I need to articulate the fact that blindness isn't the problem. The problem happens to be the misconceptions and poor attitudes that people have about blindness. It would be so easy just to be upset every time I hear some comment that talks about what I can do and what I can't do. You can't really ride a bicycle. That's amazing that you could do that. I can't imagine anybody else doing it. I know lots of blind kids who rode bikes, and I'm sure that they still do. Blindness isn't the problem. The reality is the problem consists of the misconceptions and poor attitudes that sighted people have about blindness. Whether you like it or not, that's the way it is. Blindness isn't the problem. We can learn to do the same things pretty much that you can do, and we can learn to do things that you can't do, and we learn all of that and use that knowledge to help us move forward and be more effective. What can I do that you can't do? Try walking around in the dark. You can't do it. You don't know how to do it. You don't have the techniques to do it. One of the things that has cropped up over the past significant number of years is restaurants do something called dining in the dark. Dining in the dark, and there are organizations that promote that, and they say, "Oh, you get to learn how blind people eat and how much of a challenge it is. That is so disgusting that people do that because dying in the dark isn't going to teach you anything about blindness. You don't get the training that you need in order to function as a blind person. Just like I don't get the training to learn how to function as a sighted person. Although I've spent a lot of time observing sighted people, and I understand a lot about eyesight, and I understand what you can do, and I accept that. But I expect, and I think it is reasonable for you to understand and accept that I can do lots of things. That it's not about eyesight. I wrote a book in 20, and it was published by Thomas Nelson Publishing in 2011. I and Susie Florey wrote the book. It's called Thunderdog: The True Story of a Blind Man, His Guide Dogs, and the Triumph of Trust at Ground Zero. And there is a section near the end of the book called Guide Dog Wisdom. And number two in Guide Dog Wisdom includes a sentence that says, "Don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. You all strictly deal with eyesight, and if it's not something that you can see with your eyes, or you don't really separate eyesight from vision, you tend to really misunderstand so many things. But the reality is, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. Recognize there's a whole lot more to life than eyesight. Michael Hingson  13:01 SEAL Team Six, other military teams, so many other people learn how to use those other senses, and that's the same thing that we as blind people do. We learn to use our other senses. They're not magically enhanced simply because we go blind, but rather we learn how to use those senses? I hope, or we try to, and by doing so, we improve them and we develop them. And those of us who truly do that are a lot more better off, and we're able to do so many things that people think are amazing, but they're not. They're not really amazing. They're certainly not amazing to me. Anyway, I grew up believing all of that, and of course, I was also very fortunate to have a number of jobs throughout my career. And the final result of all of that was I ended up getting the opportunity to open an office in the World Trade Center for Quantum ATL, the company that hired me to open an office in New York, and there we were on September 11th when everything happened. The night, as September 11th ended, was spent by me and my wife Karen. By the way, Karen was in a wheelchair her whole life. We got married in November of 1982, and we were married through into November of 2022. We were married 40 years. Karen was in a wheelchair her whole life. It was a great marriage, as I love to tell people. She read, I pushed, worked out well. How do I push a person in a wheelchair? Well, she used a manual chair, and when we got to curbs and so on, she would stop, and she would hold the wheels, and and I knew that she had stopped. And I would tip the chair back. She might say, "There's a curb. I would tip the chair back onto its back wheels. We'd roll down off the curb, put the chair down. We'd cross the street, tip the chair up. Front wheels go up on the curb on the other side, unless there was a ramp to go up. And we continued on our way. It's not that magical. It is just what I learned to do, and I enjoyed it. and And I enjoyed Karen's company and so on for 40 years. We were locked down during the pandemic and so on. We'll get to some of that in a bit. But I learned overall that in reality, what my parents taught me was true. Blindness wasn't going to be the problem; eyesight was going to be the problem. And that night after September 11th, we kind of tried to make sense of it. It was me and Karen and a friend of Karen's who I also got to know, and who became a friend of mine. Tom Painter had come down. Tom and Karen went to the same high school, but we all ended up in New Jersey. And Tom came to visit us, actually visit Karen after September 11th started. When he heard about the terrorist attacks, he just came down, not knowing whether I was in the office or not. But I was, and Karen and Tom, well, Tom stayed with Karen and and drove her to pick me up at the Westfield, New Jersey train station at about 7p.m. on september 11. We went home with my guide dog Roselle. When we got home, I took Roselle's harness off because I was going to take her outside. She would have none of it. She ran off. She grabbed her favorite tug bone and started playing tug of war with my retired guide dog Linnie. Well, that was kind of fun, and I didn't think a lot about it. But I went. That was interesting. The next day, I contacted Guide Dogs for the Blind because several people from there had visited us in the World Trade Center, and among others, I spoke to the head of the veterinary department, and I said, "So, tell me, how is all this going to affect Roselle? Because everybody's talking about how it's going to affect everyone and all that, and and he asked me, "Did anything threaten directly Roselle? Did anything really threaten her? And I said, No, not really. Nothing directly affected her. And he said, Well, there you go. Dogs don't do what if. They live in the moment. Michael Hingson  17:13 And when you took the harness off, it was over for her, and she was ready to go play. She wanted to relax. She wanted to play, and she did. Oh, and yes, we did eventually get her outside. But the bottom line is, I think that's one of the most important things that I learned coming out of September 11th, and I, I kind of knew it beforehand, but I really got to understand it afterward. We what if everything to death? We what if anything that comes into our lives, well, we're we're in a war with Iran. Well, what if Iran bombs us? What if Iran does this? What if the Hooties do that? What are we going to do? What if our government takes us to war in the first place? Well, they have. The bottom line is, though, we don't have control over all of that. We do have control over some things in our lives, and those are the things that we should worry about. We should stop worrying about everything else. And people say, "Well, it's natural to worry. No, it's not. Not any more natural to worry than it is not to worry. We learn to worry because we're taught that. But the bottom line is, if we learn only to focus on the things over which we truly have control, and be aware of the other things, but don't let them worry us. Don't let them cause fear in our lives. We will live much less fearful and much more stress-free lives than in any other way. If you want another example of why I believe this, on September 11th, David Frank, my colleague who had come in to be involved with the seminars, David had come in the night before, and he came to our office about 8o'clock in the morning on the 11th of September. When we were escaping from the towers, we ended up downstairs and outside. David saw fire in Tower Two, and the way we happened to walk took us very close to Tower Two. We were at Broadway and Vessi Street, maybe 100 yards away from Tower Two. And when David stopped, he said, "You know, there's fire in Tower Two. I want to take pictures of it. And and I also wanted to try to call my wife Karen to let her know that we had gotten out of the towers, I couldn't get through. The circuits were busy because, as we later learned, people were calling and talking to loved ones. But anyway, David had just started putting his camera away. I had put my phone away, and a police officer yelled, "Get out of here! It's coming down right now! And we heard this sound I describe as kind of a combination of a freight train and a waterfall. I could hear glass breaking, metal clattering, and then just the building collapsing straight down. We didn't necessarily know that it was going to do that, but it did. It did exactly what it was designed to do. Anyway, everyone turned and ran. David ran. I turned 180 degrees. With Roselle, and started running back the other way. And as soon as I started to run, I thought to myself, "God, I can't believe that you got us out of a building just to have it fall on us. And I heard in my head a voice as clearly as you hear me right now-a voice that said, "Don't worry about what you can't control, focus on running with Roselle, and the rest will take care of itself. And I had this absolute sense of conviction that if we worked together, we would be fine. Well, we were. Where'd that voice come from? It was God talking to me. I grew up with my father very seriously believing in the concept of God. If you don't, that's fine. That is your choice. I've had people on my podcast who don't necessarily have strong beliefs and convictions about God. I do, but it's not my job to force people or compel people to believe in God. I will tell my story, and people can accept it or reject it as they choose. But that's what happened to me, and I've realized from that time on: don't worry about what you can't control. And I really, truly work very hard to focus on not worrying about the things that I don't have any influence over. Michael Hingson  21:16 I like to be aware of them. I hear from people all the time today about don't watch the news. I don't like to watch the news because it just makes me so angry and so fearful. And my response is, I'm going to watch the news because I want to know what's going on. And sometimes I'll yell at politicians through the TV, but I won't really overall get angry at them. I will hear it. I will either accept it or decide I don't have any influence over it, so I'm not going to worry about it, and I don't because it isn't going to help me to worry about it. It isn't going to help anyone else to worry about any of those kinds of things. Don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on what you can and leave the rest alone, and that's one of the basic premises of the third book that I wrote, which was published in 2024, entitled "Live Like a Guide Dog: True Stories from a Blind Man and His Dogs About Being Brave, Overcoming Adversity, and Moving Forward in Faith. And that book was written by me and Carrie Wyatt Kent. The book was published by Tyndale House, and is out there for people to to read. The first book was published by Thomas Nelson Publishing, which is now part of Harper Collins, and a lady, Jeanette Hanscom, and I wrote the second book, which is called Running with Roselle, which is really a book more for children, teaching them about me growing up, Roselle growing up, and how we met. A little bit about the World Trade Center. That one was self-published, but all three books are available wherever you can find books, so you can get them always from Amazon, of course. And so I hope that that you'll get them and read them. They will help. Live Like a Guide Dog probably is the best book for me to talk about in terms of things that I learned over the years, but if I really summarize mostly what happened for me after September 11th, it is that what happened on that day validated everything that I've believed about me. Certainly, what I believe about God, but it validates everything that I've ever thought about blindness, blind people, what we can do, the challenges we face, some of the issues that other people have, and the validation is certainly something that helped what I learned. But I learned other things along the way, and you know I want to talk about some of those things. The first, as I said, is don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on what you can, and let the rest take care of itself. Speaker 1  23:56 If you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes, thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. One Michael Hingson  24:28 of the things that happened to me almost immediately after September 11th is I started hearing people say, "We got to get back to normal. If we don't get back to normal, that's a problem. We got to get back to normal. And I always reacted internally, at least pretty negatively to that. And I finally realized why I reacted to that statement about we got to get back to normal. The reason I reacted to that statement, and I still react to to myself to that statement, is normal will never be the same again. We can't get back to normal. If we get back to normal the way it was prior to September 11th, the same thing will happen again. We can't do that. We have to get back to a different normal, and and in fact, normal is probably going to be an ongoing, constant process of change. We ought to learn not to fear that either. Change is all around us. We always say that, but then we don't like change. It's kind of a paradox. But the reality is, change is all around us. And what we really need to do is to learn how to focus in change. And we need to learn that in reality, we can deal with change. And if we have any influence over it, then we should do something about that too. But the bottom line is, getting back to normal prior to September 11th isn't going to help any of us, and and it isn't going to happen. So that is an one thing that I will say definitely. I learned from September 11th: normal will never be the same again. As I said a lot earlier, I think I probably learned about public speaking at least the beginning of it by doing the spelling tests and so on. But after September 11th, the media got my story, and that happened because Joanne Ritter, the public and information services person at the time at Guide Dogs wanted to write a story, and I kind of agreed. And I said, "That's fine. And then she said, "I'll bet you'll be on TV. What television show do you want to be on first? So I kind of just sort of flippantly said, "Larry King Live. That was on the 12th of September when I talked with her. On the 13th, she called back and she said, "Larry King wants you on his show on september 14, which was a Friday, and they sent a car to pick me up, and and I recall Karen and and Tom one as well, and anyway, we went into the World Trade Center, not to the World Trade Center, but we went into New York, and I appeared on CNN, which was the first of five interviews with Larry. Larry also, by the way, at my request, wrote the foreword for Thunderdog. So when you read Thunderdog, you'll get to read Larry's words as well. But after being on Larry King, the media really got my story, and a lot of things happened after that. I started getting literally calls every day for interviews. People wanted to talk to me about September 11th and ask questions and so on. And one of the things that I learned was that talking to reporters could be a great therapy because they would ask virtually any kind of question you can imagine. And of course, a lot of people said things like, "Well, did you know what happened on September 11th when it was happening? And I said no. And they said, well, of course you didn't. You're blind, you know. And my response is, anybody who says that really needs to not let their sight get in their way or their vision to be polite about it. The fact of the matter is, as we were going down the stairs, no one knew anything about what was going on. When I got into the stairwell, I began smelling an odor, and it took me four floors to realize I was smelling the fumes from burning jet fuel. I did a lot of travel for my company, and so I was in airports a lot. So I recognized that smell. People were speculating about what they were smelling. People were speculating about what was going on. Nobody had a clue. Michael Hingson  28:20 When I realized I was smelling jet fuel, I observed it to everyone around me, and they said, "You're right. That's what we're smelling. It's burning jet fuel. We must have been hit by an airplane. You see, no one knew. We had no clue. Superman and X-ray vision just aren't real. And the bottom line is, nobody knew what was actually happening on September 11th. Blindness have nothing to do with it. People want to feel more comfortable by saying, "Well, most people probably did know, but you're blind. You didn't know. We've got to get away from these habits of thinking that just because somebody is different than we are, that they're less than we are. That's just not true. In any case, the bottom line is that we we really deal with those kinds of things, and that helped me as as time went by recognize and realize that normal would never be the same again, and it validated more my belief that blindness isn't the problem; it's the misconceptions and poor attitudes that people have about blindness that tends to truly be the problem that we face. So, as I began to talk with reporters, I didn't think about what was actually happening. But later, I realized when people started saying, "Well, did you ever get counseling or therapy, and I said no. And then it just popped into my head to say I probably had the best therapy around. I got interviewed by hundreds of reporters that asked basically any question that you can imagine, and I learned to answer those questions without being upset, especially when they were asking pretty derogatory questions or making derogatory comments. Your dog led you down the stairs. No, my dog did not lead me down the stairs. Guide dogs do not lead; they guide. And I understand the definition of lead, but it's a little bit different than what people were truly saying. What they were saying is you didn't know anything, and the dog took you all the way down the stairs because the dog could see. No, in fact, Roselle didn't lead me. Roselle's job wasn't, and no guide dog's job is to lead a person or to take charge. The dog's job is to make sure that we walk safely. I also have a job on the team. My job is to make sure that I know where we're going and how to get there. A lot easier now than it was 25 years ago, but the bottom line is that I'm the one that has to direct the dog and give the dog commands, and the dog needs to make sure that we carry out those commands safely. We are a team; we work together. I've always kind of known that guide dog schools didn't necessarily early in my guide dog career, express it that way, but it's it's a much stronger statement now. They recognize that truly we're a team. We each have a job to do on the team, and we have to work together to make the team work, which is true of any team. I've mentioned Seal Team Six earlier. They're a team. They work together. The firefighters in the World Trade Center and the other people who who were around there worked as a team, and they had to work as a team in order to develop a level of trust and a relationship where essentially each person knew what the others on their team were going to do, and it gave them more of a confidence to be able to function. Teamwork is so crucial in our world, and I learned, and and again on September 11th, it was totally validated how teamwork is so important. Roselle and I worked together well. The firefighters worked together well. Yes, we lost people, but the team really is so important, and we need to recognize that anyone listening to this ought to work in any of the things that they do to develop teams. Being alone makes no sense; it isn't going to work. You're going to have to and should learn to work with other people to make teams work better. I've seen companies where when they have award ceremonies, the leader of a team or the boss of a team gets an award, but the rest of the team doesn't really get the same recognition. Michael Hingson  32:30 If a leader is truly doing a good job at creating a team and being a part of a team, then that leader is really enhancing everyone else on the team, and that leader is the person who should help to make sure that when awards are given, that everyone on a team is recognized. We need to to learn and realize that a team is a bunch of people. It's not just one people, but they learn to work together, and that is also so important. And as I learned more and more about the events of the World Trade Center, I learned and realized more about the whole understanding of teamwork and trust and the value of it. I knew about it with me and Roselle, and I recognized the concept of teamwork. But certainly, September 11th again validated that a whole lot more effectively than anything else that I could think of, but I worked with eight dogs over the years, and working with eight dogs from my first guide dog Squire, who was a golden retriever, up through my current guide dog Alamo, I've learned probably I think more than I ever learned from experts and teamwork and sales and so on and motivation. I learned more from those dogs than I ever learned from the human experts because of the fact that one, I had to build a team with a creature who didn't think the same way I did, who didn't talk the same language that I did, and that expected things from me, and and as one of the things that I've learned is that dogs who are guide dogs really want the human to be the pack leader because it is the pack leader, it is the human who's supposed to tell the dog what they want the dog to do, and dogs take that so incredibly seriously. I mentioned Linny. Well, I didn't mention her, I think, by name. But Lenny was my fourth guide dog, and we were out in in San Diego at a company meeting one Friday in May of 1999, and we came home. It was a Saturday morning that we got home. I flew a red eye home, fed Lenny, and then rested and and all that. But Saturday night, when it came time to feed Linny, I called her. She wouldn't come. Karen even called her. She wouldn't come. We went. Upstairs and found her lying on her bed, kind of really not very responsive. We got her to a veterinarian, and it took a few days for the veterinarian to diagnose what she had as something called glomerular nephritis, which is a disease where the kidneys, the glomeria of the kidneys, which would normally pass out bad stuff from the kidneys but not the good stuff. They were passing out the good stuff as well, and Lenny was was not doing well. We were able to reverse that, but she had to retire from being a guide dog. In fact, we thought in late June of 1999 that we were going to lose her. We went off to a a meeting, not a meeting, but we went off to a hotel to say goodbye to Linny, if you will, on like the second of July. But Linny didn't pass away then, and she did get better. And then Roselle came into our lives, and Roselle and Linny became really good friends, but I mention all of it because I had no clue what was happening to Linny. Guide dogs love their jobs; they take them very seriously. And the fact of the matter is, as I learned, and especially after September 11th, I learned that these dogs will work till they drop. They will. They will do everything they can to please us, because they love what we do. They love us, and we need to bestow the same kind of love on them, which is all part of what teamwork is all about. Well, the bottom line was with Linny. She was with us for three more years, and she got to play with Roselle a lot, and so on. Michael Hingson  36:41 Of course, as I also mentioned after September 11th, but I again, especially because of what happened to Linny, but then afterward on September 11th, I realized how much it was important for me to do all I could to keep the team relationship a positive, strong one, to recognize that in reality these dogs work so hard on their own part to make the team's relationships work. They they deal with what they have to deal with. They get very stressed if we're upset. They take it very personally if we get upset, even if we're not necessarily upset at them; they still take it very personally. The more stress that a guide dog faces in their lives, the harder it's going to be for them, and frankly, the shorter their lives are going to be. So I learned, even before September 11th, but especially after September 11th, to do all I could to keep the stress away from the dog. As we were going down the stairs on September 11th, I constantly encouraged and praised Roselle. What a good dog! Keep going. What a good job! Good girl, Roselle. Even if I wasn't able to hold the harness because the stairs were so crowded that Roselle couldn't walk next to me and had to walk behind me at heel, and I would just hold the leash. I kept praising her because I wanted her to know for her I was okay, and I had to focus on not being afraid and letting that fear come out. Well, I was fearful like anyone was, and in fact, I love to tell people. Being a great fan of science fiction, I have a great imagination, and I was listening for the building to make creaks and groans, and you never knew what was going to happen. Fortunately, it didn't all the way down. But the bottom line for me was that doing so kept me focused. And I and I learned later that while I might have been afraid on September 11th, partly because I was encouraging Roselle and working to sound very calm and confident, I was able to also help other people, but help Roselle and keep Roselle from being afraid and and being stressed. And I work very hard to do that with my guide dogs that I've had since even more than prior to September 11th. My current guide dog Alamo and I travel the world speaking all over the place, if you will. We've been to Israel. We've been well, actually, Alamo didn't get to go to London, but we've been to Israel with my seventh guide dog, Africa. We went to the Netherlands, Alamo and I have been to Wisconsin. I've been to a variety of places, and of course, all around the the world, all around the United States, to Canada, everywhere. And again, I don't necessarily know a lot about where we're going in advance, but I ask a lot of questions so that I can learn where we're going to go, so that I can give the dogs the appropriate commands. I mentioned Wisconsin's. I've been all over the United States. It's been an honor, and I'm going to continue to do that. If anybody wants a public speaker to come and talk to their organization, please reach out to me. I'd love to hear from you. My email address is really simple. It's speaker@michaelhinkson.com. We'll put that in the show notes, and love to hear from you. So anyway, I learned a lot about teamwork from working with eight guide dogs, and I continue to learn every day. I think it's very important for me to learn and to focus all that I can to make sure that I do what it is that's necessary to make a team work, and I believe it is all about the team. I've mentioned that I've written three books, and each one was a collaboration with someone else: Susie Florey with Thunderdog, Jeanette Hanscom with Running with Roselle and Carrie Wyatt Kent with Live Like a Guide Dog, and and the fact of the matter is those collaborations I think were very important. Michael Hingson  40:49 They made the books come out a lot different than I might have imagined them coming out by themselves and the way I would have written them without having collaboration, and probably Live Like a guide dog more than more than the other two, just because of the way it all went. But with live like a guide dog, we focused on each of my my guide dogs and the lessons that we learned. So I mentioned Squire, who I worked with in high school and then went to college with Squire, and Squire was was all around where wherever I was. One night in a dorm, I was with a roommate. Well, actually, a person who lived in a room next door to mine, and I was in his room. We were dealing with a physics problem. By the way, my master's degree is in physics. I have a secondary teaching credential, but I was in with Richard dealing with a physics problem. When I went back into my room, there was no Squire. I didn't realize that a couple of the students decided to play a trick and kidnap him. I went looking around the dorm. I even went into the bathroom and opened the shower door and called Squire, and nothing was totally quiet, and finally, I was getting a little bit concerned. And one of the people said, "Oh well, look, we took the dog. We'll show you. They went into the bathroom, opened the shower door, and out comes Squire. He was in on it. He didn't do a thing when I opened the door, but when the other people did, then then he came out. I wasn't mad at him. Sneaky dog that he is, he had a great sense of humor. But I got vengeance because that that person didn't tell the other people that they showed him where showed me where Squire was. I went and hit Squire somewhere, and then I went back out into the main part of the dorm and I started going, "Who took my dog? What's going on? Where is he? And all the other people said, "Oh, come on, he's in the bathroom. And they went in and opened the door to the shower. No Squire, and they were starting to worry about what happened to him. And Squire, of course, was again not making noise. But eventually, I brought him out and I said, "Okay, I found him. I knew where he was. We're playing a trick on you just like you played a trick on me. That'll teach you. I learned that dogs have a sense of humor that day, but I also learned how much I valued having Squire around, and so Squire worked with me up until and through my first graduate year in physics at UC Irvine, and then Squire retired and went to live with my parents. And in 1973, I got my second guide dog, Holland. Holland was with me through 1986. He worked for almost 13 years, and in fact, was two weeks from retiring when he collapsed in our backyard one day, and we took him to the vet. And the vet said, "I could probably bring him out of whatever he's got, maybe a stroke or a heart attack or both, but he won't have a good quality of life. And so we said goodbye to to Holland. Holland and Squire were both golden retrievers, but again, Holland so strongly reinforced all the things that that I had felt about teamwork, and I learned so much more from him about what I needed to do in order to to function well, not just with a dog, but in my whole life. Then I got Klondike, who was my third guide dog, who was also a golden retriever. Soon after I got Klondike, well, about a year after I got Klondike, suddenly one day he had a very strong grand mal epileptic seizure, and we took him to the vet, and they put him on some medication that wasn't really helping that. And we then kept trying to to deal with it, and finally, and during that same time, I was looking for a job. I had owned my own company for four years, but decided I wanted to go back into the workforce, and and I finally got a job with a company. Michael Hingson  44:52 And on one of the first days that I worked there, Klondike had four grand mal seizures in the. Period of time, and we thought we were going to have to say goodbye to Klondike. But I talked to our veterinarian, and he said, "You know, before we do that, I want to send him to a neurologist who did an electroencephalograph. And he said, "I didn't see much, but he said one thing he did was to take some blood tests, and he said I noticed that his Klondike's thyroid level is low, and low thyroid levels in dogs like Klondike can make them more susceptible to have seizures, just like it can for children. Well, we put Klondike on synthroid, synthetic thyroid, as well as on phenobarbital to control the seizures. The synthroid had much more of an effect than the phenobarb did, Klondike actually became a much more active and playful and interactive dog, and did not have from that time on for the next seven years that he worked for me as a guide dog never had a single seizure. So the thyroid theory was a good one. Again, with with Klondike, it was about developing a team and recognizing that we had to work together. Well, then I got Linny, and again I mentioned Linny only worked for three years. Linny had glomerular nephritis that was really probably from a tick bite where the tick had Lyme's disease, and we didn't know any of that was happening until that night that Linny didn't wake up at all or didn't get up from her bed, and we finally got it diagnosed. And then I got Roselle. Now Roselle was a a wonderful dog. One of the things that I've always said is that when I get a new guide dog and I tell the trainers I want a dog with an on-off switch. That is, I want a dog that knows when the harness is on, it's time to work, and when the harness is off, then they can play. Clearly, Roselle had that when she was in harness. She was very focused. She did develop a phobia of thunderstorms, but there were a few times that we had thunderstorms, and she was able to continue to guide, even though she would shake and she would shiver a little bit. But she continued to guide. She focused. In fact, there was a thunderstorm the morning of September 11th, about 12:30 in the morning. But there was no thunder when we were going through what we did in the World Trade Center, so none of that caused her to be fearful. But again, Roselle was a dog that that taught me a lot about observation, learning what the dogs do, what what they fear, and how to help keep them focused and calm. And so I did that. My sixth guide dog was Meryl. Meryl only worked for about a year. Roselle retired in 2007. Merrill worked from 2007 to 2008, but Merrill became very fearful of guiding, and so ended up not being a guide dog very long. And I I'd never experienced that, although I had heard other people who had issues where dogs didn't work very long. Lenny only worked for three years, but a dog that didn't work for more than a year-that was unusual for me. However, poor Meryl wasn't able to do well as a guide, and so she retired. And then we got Africa. Now Africa was my seventh guide dog. Africa's mother was Fantasia. In January of 2006, we were working. I was working at Guide Dogs for the Blind, and we applied to be what were called breeder keepers. That is, they were the the people who would keep a breeder dog in their home because the guide dogs for the blind bred their own guide dogs and so on. And breeder keepers would keep dogs in their homes so that the dogs weren't just cooped up in kennels all day, and we volunteered to do that. And the director of breeding, Marina Hall, called us and said, "I've got four dogs for you to look at. I think one's better than the others for you, but I want you to come and meet these dogs. So we went down, and and she made the comment again. I think one dog is going to be better than the others. Michael Hingson  49:02 And and I said, well, if you think so strongly, but which one is it? Well, she finally sort of told us. She said, I didn't want to tell you, but I'll tell you. So she did. But anyway, the first dog who came in was a dog named Fantasia, and it works sort of the same way that when people get guide dogs, you're in a room. The dog is allowed to come in, and you see how the dog reacts to you. When I met Squire for the first time, I was sitting in a chair. They let Squire in. He came over and started sniffing me all over. Didn't leave me. He just started sniffing. And Bruce Benzler, who was the apprentice instructor at the time, later became director of Guide Dogs for the Blind, CEO anyway, anyway. Bruce then said, "Looks like you found a friend already, and we became friends. But anyway, when when Fantasia came into the room, she took one look at Karen and leaped into Karen's lap. She had no fear of the power wheelchair that Karen was using by that time. The other three dogs, we still looked at them, and they all expressed one level of fear or concern about being around this wheelchair. But Marina said Fantasia was the one that we thought you'd like best and would like you best, and she was. So anyway, in 2006, we got Fantasia in January, and later that year, she had a litter of puppies, and then in early or mid 2007, she Fantasia had her second litter. I guess it was late in 2006 she had the second litter, but anyway, by the middle of 2008, when we had to retire Meryl because she wasn't working out very well, we were notified that they found a dog that they thought would be a really good replacement for Meryl, and that's a dog named Africa. And Karen and I realized Africa was a name that we suggested as as breeder keepers that they could name one of their puppies if they had puppies who came from an A litter. And the way it works, by the way, is when a litter is born, they're assigned a letter of the alphabet, and they got a big book, and they go into that book and they get the next names that are available. They don't use names of current guide dogs, so when a dog retires, then they can start using that name again. But anyway, Africa was a name that we suggested, and as soon as we saw the email that said Africa, we knew Fantasia was Africa's mother. Well, Africa came and joined us, and mom and daughter did really well, and Roselle was still with us. So the three of them have a lot of fun together, but again with Africa, I learned about teamwork and doing the things that I needed to do. Every dog is different, and one of the things that I developed over the years was an understanding that to truly develop a relationship with a dog takes probably close to a year by the time we really are totally comfortable with each other, but I worked with Africa. We became good friends. Africa became good friends with Roselle. Of course, Africa liked her mom, and all worked out really well. Developing those teeming relationships is so important, and you can learn a lot more about them if you get live like a guide dog. I think you'll find them all very interesting to to read about. So in 2017, I noticed that Africa was starting to slow down and not do as well. She wasn't able to see as well at night. Sort of typical signs of a dog getting older, even though I work to to keep stress out as much as possible, but I applied and in 2018 on the 9th of February, Africa's puppy raisers, Bill and Peggy Sproul from San Francisco or San Diego rather, came to visit us in Victorville, and we had offered them the opportunity to take Africa because we had Fantasia, and we had Africa. And if we kept Africa and Fantasia, and I got a new guide dog, Karen would have a hard time taking care of two dogs when I traveled, because I was doing a great deal of travel by then as a keynote speaker, and so the Sprouls came and got Africa. Michael Hingson  53:26 Left our house, Africa didn't even look back. She was gone. We had visited her several times since then, and and in in the Sprouls home, Africa died in 2020. But we we got to visit Africa several times and it was a lot of fun and and she she loved us and all that and remembered us anyway on the 11th of February two days later I went to Guide Dogs for the Blind and I met Alamo who was my first black Labrador and I met him we we met in the room and he kind of sniffed me a little bit and walked around the room. But then came back and sniffed me, and then I took him on leash back to our our dorm room at Guide Dogs for the Blind, and I decided I'd sit on the floor to to visit with him. And the next thing I know, this big, huge, 60 pound Labrador is in my lap. Alamo was and is a lapdog, but he doesn't know a stranger, which is great. I mentioned earlier that I always said that when I get a guide dog, I want a guide dog that has an on and off switch. Another thing that I require is that guide dogs that I get be raised by cats. I have known of animals who of guide dogs who don't like cats, and I would not want that because we always have had cats. And by that time, when we got Alamo, we had Stitch, who we rescued in January of 2015. So now here it is, February of 2018. So I knew that we needed to have a dog that wasn't going to be. Be afraid of cats. Well, so Stitch and Alamo kind of walked around each other a little bit when we first went home, but they got to like each other pretty well pretty quickly, and they have been together ever since. Alamo has been on a number of aircraft, as I've mentioned over the years, he went to Israel with me. He didn't go to England when I spoke in 2024, but he's been to other places and will continue to travel with me. I work really hard to keep the stress out of his life. I don't want him to become any more stressed than he ever has to be, and he feeds off of how I behave, as as I've learned guide dogs do. So that's one of the most important things that I've learned is to keep that stress out of his life. I would point out that is just as much true for human teams. Don't stress out your team. If you are a leader, your job is to enhance what those leaders, what the team does. Your job isn't to boss them around. If you're doing that, you're only causing more stress, and you're going to find you're going to have a big job turnover, much more than you really should. I've always felt that my job isn't to boss people around when I hire them, my job is to enhance their abilities by using the skills that I have and learning to work with them to give them the benefit of what I know and to use the benefits of what they know to learn myself as well, so that we become more effective. And the people who really get that do very well. The people who didn't get that tend not to last very long at the company because they don't perform very well. Because I know that in reality, I add value to the team by working to add value, not bossing the team around. I think there's a big difference between leaders and bosses, and I've learned that over the years. That leaders are people who can enhance what other people do, who work to make the whole team effective and not just try to boss people around. In late 2020, I discovered a company called Accessibe, A C C E S S I capital B E. Website is accessibee.com. Was a company that made products to help make internet websites more inclusive, and at first, they had some challenges because they were using a lot of AI stuff to make their products work, and they sort of did. But there were there were challenges. But one day in January of 2021, the founder of the company, Sheer Eckerling. Michael Hingson  57:41 contacted me and said we're interested in you joining the company. I had been looking at possibly selling their products because the pandemic had hit, and I thought I could sell them from home because we were locked down. And and he said, well, you know, we we'd like you to not sell as a partner, just on your own, we'd like you to join the company. Well, he asked what I was doing, and by that time I had started to learn about podcasting because I couldn't travel and speak all over the world. So what I decided to do was to look at using podcast as a revenue source. And Shear said, "Well, you know, we we're really interested in having somebody do a podcast for us. And I said, "What do you want? And he said, "I want to just get somebody who will do a podcast to show that we're part of the world. And you join the company; you could do that in part. I joined the company, and he didn't have any specific agenda for the podcast. So, in August of 2021, I began Unstoppable Mindset, and soon it became unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. And I'll explain all of that in a moment. But the point is that we started the podcast. I created the title. I recreated the description, and I wanted the podcast to be conversations. And as anyone who has been on the podcast knows, we don't do interviews as such. We do conversations, and I ask people to send me materials to help me prepare to be able to do the conversation. And so a number of times we've had diversity experts on people from the DEI world, and when I ask them what they do, they say, you know, we focus a lot on diversity, and I say, what does that mean? And they say, well, we deal with race, gender, sexual orientation, and so on. And we chat for a little while, and then I say, but you haven't talked about disabilities. And they say, oh, disability is not a minority. And I say, what do you mean? He said, well, disability is a social justice thing. It's not like race, gender, or sexual orientation. And my response to that is balderdash. I like to use balderdash. I could go back and use what Colonel Sherman Potter did on Mash and say monkey muffins. But anyway, balderdash because diversity should include disability because it is a minority. Even the Center for Disease Control says that. Adversity, or that that people with disabilities are a minority of about 25% of people in the United States. Well, so the bottom line for me is that I would say to them, "What do you mean you're you're not including it? And they say, "Well, it's a it's a disability, but it's social justice. It's always about being a lack of ability, and as I have learned, especially since September 11th and and beyond, disability does not mean a lack of ability. You might want to think it does. You might want to try to make that fit, but it doesn't. And I learned that most effectively in March of 2023 when I went to something, by that time Karen had passed, and I was working with a person who had been Karen's caregiver, who decided to work for me. Very grateful for Josie doing that. Josie entered my name in the contest to be a guest at the Kelly and Ryan Oscar after party, which was going to be held the Monday after the Oscars at the Dolby Theater, well, I didn't even know she entered me, but I got a call the Tuesday before the Oscar after party and the Oscars, and I was and I picked up the phone and they said congratulations, and I said for what? Oh, you won an invitation to come to the Kelly and Ryan Oscar after party, and I went really well. Anyway, I went down with my niece and nephew, Tracy and Charlie Green. The there wasn't room for taking Josie, her husband, and her mother and her five kids. So it was just me, Tracy, and Charlie. Michael Hingson  1:01:37 We got up to our room about 3o'clock in the afternoon on the Saturday before the Oscars, the day before the Oscars, we put our luggage in our room and we were coming back down the main stairwell staircase actually from the third to the first floor in the Hollywood Roosevelt. It's a very open staircase, and all of a sudden I heard people screaming, and it took me a while to to try to understand what's going on, and finally I couldn't figure it out. I said, Tracy, what's going on? And she said, Oh, we just lost power and lighting on the stairs, and and power and lighting in and around the entire hotel. Now it didn't bother Tracy. Tracy had known me for a long time, but people were panicky because they weren't getting all the light they expected, even though the windows were open, the the shades were up on the first floor in the lobby, and so on. Lots of light, but it wasn't all that people expected. And I thought about that, and what I learned from that was, it proves that disability isn't a lack of ability; it proves that disability is a characteristic that we all have. Thomas Edison and others worked on the light bulb, and Thomas Edison is credited with developing the electric light bulb back in 1878. But in the 148 years since the light bulb was developed, all society has done in that regard is worked very hard on coming up with better ways of providing light on demand, so that you sighted people could have all the light you want when you want it. Nowadays, we have smartphones, we have flashlights, we have other ways of getting light on demand. But as the Americans with Disabilities Act would describe it. The light bulb is simply, or any piece of technology that produces light on demand, is simply a piece of technology that provides light on demand to light-dependent people who otherwise don't function well without it. The bottom line is, disability is not a lack of ability. We got words like discrete, discern, disciple. What is discern? Is it a lack of discern? What is it? What is disciple? A lack of viple? No. Disability is not a lack of ability. Disability is a character

September 11, 2001, changed Bob Ellis's life, just as it changed mine. Bob was working at the Pentagon that morning and had walked out of the building only minutes before Flight 77 struck the area where his meeting had taken place. You will hear how he immediately became part of the response, helping organize emergency supplies and support for those working at the Pentagon. We also compare our experiences from two different locations that day, Bob at the Pentagon and me at the World Trade Center with my guide dog Roselle. Twenty-five years later, our conversation is about more than remembering 9/11. It is about leadership, teamwork, service, controlling fear, and deciding what we do with the life we have been given. I believe Bob's story offers lessons we can all use when the unexpected happens. Highlights: 05:29-Bob shares how his early life and military support career shaped his path. 23:53-He recalls realizing the first World Trade Center strike was not an accident. 32:59-Bob describes being just 300 yards away when the Pentagon was hit. 37:00-He explains how he helped organize emergency relief supplies within hours. 1:03:54-Michael reflects on survival, fear, and the responsibility to move forward. 1:06:55-Bob shares the lasting life lessons he took from September 11. About the Guest: Bob Ellis is the Vice President, American Logistics Association responsible for Exchange, MWR, Food Service Operations. The native of Fort Walton Beach, Florida began his career with AAFES in 1972. From 1972 through 1984, he held retail management positions as a Branch Manager, and Operations Manager Main Store. In 1985, Ellis began a string of assignments as an Exchange General Manager trainee at Fort Belvoir, VA, and Exchange General Manager, Fort Hamilton, NY and Carlisle Barrack PA, (Army War College). Assignments as Area Retail Manager and General Manager at the former Japan Area Exchange ran from 1989-1992. In 1992, Ellis was transferred to Travis AFB in California as Retail Manager, Main Store. In 1994, Ellis was selected for the General Manager's position at Travis and spent three years assisting in the design and new construction effort of the largest retail Main Store ever constructed by AAFES. From 1997 to 2002, Ellis held the position of Director of AAFES' Washington Office, serving as the principal representative of the Commander, AAFES to the Office of the Secretary of Defense, the Departments of the Army and the Air Force, Congressional offices and industry representatives. Notable among his accomplishments, Ellis was instrumental in spearheading AAFES support to the Pentagon after the attacks of September 11th. Within 48 hours of the event, AAFES established a mobile exchange in the shadow of the impact site to support rescue workers and investigators with critical need and personal comfort items. After Washington, Ellis moved to AAFES Headquarters' in Dallas to assume the Vice President Specialty and Consumables position. In this role, Ellis was responsible for the SD-C Category Team Managers/Buyers. In August 2003, Ellis took his a position as Vice President of Corporate Planning and Communications where he managed the development of AAFES long range and contingency planning programs, oversight of corporate public affairs and ensured compliance with Department of Defense policy guidance with the goal of preserving and protecting the exchange benefit for soldiers and airmen and their families around the globe. Bob joined the ALA on 31 July 2006 where he continues to serve a role in military resale supporting Exchange, MWR, and Food Service, operations still serving military resale over 51 years continuous service. Ways to connect with Bob**:** You can find more benefits how Branded Riches can help you build your Brand, Product, Business, and Yourself at https://www.BrandedRiches.com   Connect:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/neryk-davydov Branded Riches Audiobook by Neryk Davydov https://www.audible.com/pd/Branded-Riches-Audiobook/B0GCP9MMRB Branded Riches Book https://www.amazon.com/Branded-Riches-Increase-Income-Irresistible/dp/1987753836 $5 Free Gift for Creating A New Ovato Wallet    www.ovatoCoin.com  About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Everyone, I am Michael Hingson, the host of Unstoppable Mindset. You've heard my voice for the last 471 episodes, but I'm calling you all out today and asking you to listen to this because we're going to make a special announcement now regarding the next four episodes, starting with 472. We're going to help commemorate the historic events of September 11, 2001. Yes, they're definitely historic, although not necessarily the most positive things that have ever happened. But as many of you may know, I was in the World Trade Center working on September 11, 2001, on the 78th floor of Tower One, and escaped with my guide dog. I've delivered a speech about that, which we put in the first episode of this podcast series back in August of 2021. But this Friday, episode 472 is going to have an updated speech that I delivered just a few years ago at the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival. That festival is a yearly event celebrating different kinds of things that have happened in American history, and I was invited to come and speak, which I did. I'm going to put that speech up for you as episode 472. I think you'll find it enlightening. It'll teach you something about blindness and blind people. It'll tell you my story, and it'll give you some inspiration that I hope you will find helpful. Next Tuesday, september 8, Michelle Abraham is going to interview me. Michelle is with Amplify You, the company that does all of our back office stuff and helps me with the editing and other things regarding the podcast. Michelle owns her own podcast, and she is going to interview me about September 11th and other kinds of things relating to what I've learned and things that have happened over the past 25 years. She's also going to be putting this up on her podcast Amplify You, so you can find us in a lot of different places. On September 11th, I'm going to chat with Bob Ellis. Bob was in the Pentagon on September 11, 2001, and had literally just walked out the door of the Pentagon when the plane crashed into the Pentagon and did the things and the damage that it did, and of course generated all the things that occurred at the Pentagon. On the 15th of September, I'm going to come back and have a conversation with all of you about lessons that I've learned over the past 25 years, and just reminisce a little bit about all of that. While the podcast is occurring on September 11th, I will be actually in Kilgore, Texas, doing a speech about September 11th. So lots of things going on, I hope you listen to these episodes. I hope that you'll tell everyone that you can about them. I really enjoy all of the support that you've given us over the years, and we're going to continue to do things with Unstoppable Mindset. And of course, as always, if you'd like to come on or know anyone who would, please let us know. We're always looking for guests. Thanks very much. We'll see you on Friday with the first of these four episodes. What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingston, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. You are listening to us today, or at least I'm assuming you're listening just when this came out. But whenever you're listening, it is today, September 11th, 2026, which is needless to say, a special day. If you have kept up with my podcast from the beginning, you know that I worked in the World Trade Center on September 11th, and ever since then I've been a public speaker, traveling the world, talking about trust, teamwork, leadership, the human-animal bond, and a variety of things. But recently, I met Bob Ellis. Michael Hingson  04:40 Now, Bob, as it turns out, on September 11th worked at the Pentagon, and I have not ever really had the opportunity to talk with someone who was at the Pentagon, especially on September 11th. But we get to chat about that today, and Bob knows our rules, which are basically. He sent me a series of questions that he wants to cover, but we are doing this as a conversation, so we'll probably talk about a lot of the things that he specifically sent. But we can go any old way that Bob wants to go, so that's what we'll we'll make this really fun. And I'm really looking forward to having the opportunity to talk with Bob. So again, welcome to September 11th, and Bob, I want to welcome you to Unstoppable Mindset. We're really glad you're here, Bob Ellis  05:28 Michael. Thank you for inviting me. I know you you've inquired several times, and I've debated it, and and I was just holding it for the right time, and this is the right time-the 25th anniversary of the event. Michael Hingson  05:40 Yeah, it is, and and and as as we've said, if you find anybody who needs a a speaker to come in and speak, let me know. But but for now, we get to chat about you and and hear your story, which I think is the important thing. I think we'll probably talk about both of our stories in the course of the day, no doubt about it. But I really am glad that you are here and that you are able to to talk with us today and and and talk about things. So let's start the way I love to start with people. Let's start at the beginning. Tell me kind of about the early Bob growing up and so on. Let's start with that. Bob Ellis  06:17 Well, I I grew up in let's say grew up until I was four years old. I lived. I was born in Pensacola, Florida. Lived in the Panhandle. Mother and father got divorced, and we moved to Norfolk, Virginia. And it was just my my mother and I until I was 14 years old. And I found out about my dad and found some letters from him and insisted to go see him. And so, between 14 and 15, I made a couple of unauthorized attempts to to make my way to Florida. On the third attempt, I made it, and it was quite a surprise for my father. Ended up living with him and being my closest friend up until I had he had grandkids, we had kids, and so I lived and grew up in the Destin, Fort Worth, Fort Walton area. Went to work, and this is where the story begins. I went to work at Eglin Air Force Base as a as a janitor in a gas station for the Army Air Force Exchange Service, so that I could continue to play high school football and practice, was a great job. It was an opportunity to work with the military, be around the military, and I took great pride in that feeling that that that that while I I wanted to go into the air force and I wanted to fly jets, that opportunity just never presented itself because the Vietnam War was going on and they were banking pilots instead of taking pilots. Anyway, I I ended up staying with the Army Air Force Exchange Service for 34 years. I moved all over the world. I've seen the every AOR and every combat scenario since the Vietnam War. Not in the Vietnam War, but I was in the refugee program, helping with the resettlement back in 1972, 1973. Spent the rest of my career going wherever they sent me, and and and that was from Tokyo, Japan, to to Tuli, Greenland, to California, and ultimately to to Texas. Michael Hingson  08:30 I remember during the Vietnam War, someone called me one day. I was a student at UC Irvine, and there was a refugee camp fairly close to the university, and someone said, and someone said, "There's a blind young man at the sent at the refugee center, and we should go see him. And so we we bought a transistor radio for him and went out to visit with him and spent some time with him, and I never got to see him after that. But I hope I hope he did well. He he seemed like he was doing okay, but he was a little bit lost, needless to say, because it's a whole bunch of people. There are no a lot of people who knew much about blindness and blind people, but I would presume he did reasonably okay. I hope so, but that was the only time I specifically had an involvement with him or anyone at the refugee camps. Later, when I met my wife Karen, she lived, I think, a door down, and she and her parents lived a door down from a Vietnamese couple, and he was a tailor and actually made her wedding dress, which was kind of cool, and so we got to spend a fair amount of time with the Voo's, which was was good, but what's. Interesting for me now, with with now being well so many years later. In November, I will be going to do a speech in Hanoi, so I'm really looking forward to to going over there and and experiencing it. At least it'll be a little bit cooler then than it probably is now. So we'll see, but it'll be it'll be pretty enjoyable to go and again see a different a different part of the world, and I I think we'll be fine. At least that's that's that's the plan. Bob Ellis  10:34 That that that that tour that I had at Eglin Air Force Base with the refugees, will come back to to to 911 2001 and the experiences that I had at that refugee camp replicated in the Pentagon park and lot there in 911. So we'll get to that. I'll explain it further. Michael Hingson  10:56 Yeah, I'm sure it was a a great a great lesson. Where did you do college, or did you Bob Ellis  11:03 went to went to Duke University and the University and the University of Maryland? Michael Hingson  11:10 Okay. Well, at Bob Ellis  11:12 least much of it was correspondence as well, only because I was deployed for for so many years back to back, 17 moves in 34 years. Michael Hingson  11:22 Wow, Duke University. At least you didn't go to one of those other schools in North Carolina. Boy, talk about talk about rivalries and basketball. What a what a group down there. Bob Ellis  11:35 Oh, I know, I know. Michael Hingson  11:38 I once spoke in Kentucky, and the Wildcats were in the NCAA championship that year, and I was asked to speak at an event on the night of the championship. But I was told I had to end by 630. I could not go one second past 630 because the gym I was speaking in was going to clear out. Well, I ended in time so that at 630, what they said was absolutely true. That gym cleared out. Everybody went home to watch the game. Bob Ellis  12:09 That's that's sports. Michael Hingson  12:11 Not sports. It is, but it's okay. I I learned a lot down there and got to meet a number of people, and so it was it was a lot of fun to to do it, and then years later I was in North Carolina when NC State and UNC were playing to see who was going to go into the championship. So again, pretty interesting world, and and sports ruled everything then, so it's okay. It Bob Ellis  12:43 hasn't it hasn't changed at all because my my my daughter I got her graduate studies done at NC State, and it hasn't changed a bit. It's just I'll bet it's just crazy as it's when was 20 3040 years ago, Michael Hingson  12:58 and it shall ever be, won't it? Bob Ellis  13:01 Yeah, yeah. Her undergraduate degree was at University of Texas. This was my son's, and she went on to NC State, and and he went on to medical school in in Houston. Michael Hingson  13:16 Okay. Well, UC Irvine, when I was there, had the championship water polo team, but that's what we had. But they started basketball while I was there, although it wasn't anything huge. But a couple of years ago, they made it to the Sweet 16, and that was kind of fun for UC Irvine. One of these days, it'll go all the way. Bob Ellis  13:40 Yep. Michael Hingson  13:41 Well, anyway, so you you went to college, and and what did you major in? Bob Ellis  13:45 Political science. Michael Hingson  13:47 Okay, political science Bob Ellis  13:48 and business management. With a with my two aspirations, I wanted to. I really wanted to major in in aviation science, but that that wasn't offered. So that's political science and business science, business law. Michael Hingson  14:06 But you were working for the Army Air Force Exchange Service. What is that exactly? Bob Ellis  14:11 Yeah, it's a it's it's it's a non-appropriated funded Service provided all goods. I think of it as the the Walmart or the Target of of the civilian sector, except the Army Air Force Exchange Service has stored everything from stores, every business that you can think of therein, from stores to convenience stores to gas stations to beauty shops and barber shops to dining facilities, franchise Burger Kings, anything that a soldier and his family needs at the base or overseas or in the combat arena, where we were there with it, providing it. It's been a great career. Michael Hingson  14:59 Did you? Do you have any involvement with, especially here in the U.S. the the Randolph Sheppard programs, the blind vending stand operations at any of the facilities? Bob Ellis  15:09 Yep, sure did many many times. We're still working with it. There's there's some issues present right now under the Randolph Shepherd that they're looking at. I don't know what what's going to change, but yes, sir, we were very, very close to that. Michael Hingson  15:24 Yeah, I know there. The current government's looking at it; they want to scale a lot of it back, which would, I think, not be a good thing. I think there's a lot of reasons to keep it, but we'll see. We'll see. We'll see how it goes. But I, the closest I ever came to dealing with anything from AAES was I was invited to speak once at an organizational meeting of the National Property Managers Association in the military. Are you familiar with that? Bob Ellis  15:56 I am. Yes. Michael Hingson  15:57 And when I was asked to come, the Speakers Bureau didn't do a good research job because they told me, "Oh, it's the people who rent apartments and all that. When I got down to the to the event, I will say that the National Property Managers Association certainly serves a nice breakfast. But anyway, the conversation just didn't seem like what I what I was expecting. So I asked somebody, and they told me that the organization was the organization that had complete jurisdiction over anything physical that the government owned, and Bob Ellis  16:30 absolutely Michael Hingson  16:31 that that changed my grass. Sorry, Bob Ellis  16:34 right down to the grass, right down to the grass and the concrete. Michael Hingson  16:37 There you go. Well, it also changed my speech in 10 minutes, but it was fun. They invited me back the next year, so that was good. But it's it's fun when you're you're planning to do a particular speech, and suddenly it turns out it's got to change. It's good to have the flexibility to do that. But I'm I'm glad I had the opportunity to do it, and hopefully we'll have opportunities to do it again, but you have served a lot of different kinds of of services within AAES, and and I assume that's all worked out pretty well. Bob Ellis  17:14 That that worked out very well. Yep, I had I started at the bottom and and climbed as close to the top as I possibly could, but Michael Hingson  17:23 you eventually got the the highest medal that was available for civilians when you retired or after you retired. Bob Ellis  17:31 No, the highest award that I ever received was from my man over the Pentagon 911 support program, which was a nice medoris civilian award. Michael Hingson  17:46 Okay, where is your favorite place to live in the world? Or is that really easy to say? I mean, you've been all over the place and seen a lot of different kinds of places. Don't know how much you got to two of them, but anyway, Bob Ellis  18:00 it wasn't the two places that I that I went overseas, which was Japan and Greenland. Those were the longest tours of my life. Beautiful country in Japan, and and great facilities and support in tuning Greenland. But I would I would guess throughout the United States, I had a great assignment at the Army War College, and I had a great assignment at Travis Air Force Base here in Michael Hingson  18:26 California. Yeah, Bob Ellis  18:28 yeah. Michael Hingson  18:30 I've spoken. Bob Ellis  18:30 My son was born in Japan. He's dual citizen as a result on the Air Force Base, and my daughter was born in California. So it was a great time, mainly because the kids were younger and and and and we were in great climate areas. Michael Hingson  18:48 When people ask me what my favorite place in the United States is, I say everywhere. I I just enjoy meeting people wherever I go in the U.S. It's so many different cultures and customs and ways of doing things. It is so fun to to see all the different places and see how they are. People ask what I like, where I like outside the U.S. And so far, it's been New Zealand. I would say is probably the best, but Japan has to be up there too. I've really enjoyed being in Japan. I've been there a couple times, and I thoroughly enjoyed Bob Ellis  19:23 it. I, I had, I think the most the the greatest thing about the assignments was some of the people I I got to to meet in in my in my tours. One of them would be the Crown Prince of of Thailand, who who is now the king of Thailand, King Rama, got to meet him when he was a pilot, and supported him when when I was at Yokota Air Base, and multiple other celebrities. I I had the opportunity as a kid to attend the funeral. For Douglas MacArthur, and and his his memorial was right across the street in North Virginia from where my mother worked. And 20 years later, I had the opportunity to to meet mrs. Mcarthur, Jean MacArthur, at Gracie Mansion in New York, and I I I wrote protocol. I when it came time for her to to meet me and meet meet her, I got down on one knee and I held her hand and I said, "I want to tell you a little story, ma'am. And she said, "Well, certainly, absolutely. And I told her the story how when the general had died in in 1964, I was required by my my mother to go to the funeral, and the most fascinating person I'd ever seen in my life was herself, and she just got she just turned red. Well, long story short, I was at an army command at Fort Hamilton. The next day, the the group the the installation commander called me over to his office, very angry, but he wanted me to know that I was going to be the first civilian aide for the old lady, which was mrs. Mcarthur, and he had to take one of his lieutenants off. And I got to know the family and and the Mcarthurs as a result of that. So lots of opportunities, just absolutely amazing. 911, and we'll get to it. I got to meet President Bush momentarily, but I I got to meet him and have a short conversation. Michael Hingson  21:32 I got to meet him in 2005. We went to the Oval Office, and we were supposed to have a two minute photo op, but he kept wanting to interact. We ended up talking for about 15 minutes. He kept the Italian ambassador or prime minister waiting, but it was a was a great conversation. I very much enjoyed having the opportunity to meet with him. Bob Ellis  21:53 Yeah, he was remarkable. Michael Hingson  21:54 Yeah, in in so many ways. If Speaker 1  22:00 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  22:33 So that's that's pretty cool. So as you were going around to all these different places, what would you say you were learning. Bob Ellis  22:41 I was learning business. I was learning relationships. I was learning marketing. Pretty much anything that you wanted to do as a general manager or a vice president, the exchanges let you do it. You know, until you got too far gone, and they they reel you back in. But I love being able to run multiple businesses on the installation, and and be accountable for them, and run them at a profit, and and at the end of the day, do great things for military families. Michael Hingson  23:16 Wow! So you um, you you've you've had a lot of challenges and and had to learn a lot of different things. Needless to say, but I would would think that you've you've been able to to keep a lot of that and use it. And you know we've referred to September 11 th, and so let's let's get to around that time. The first thing I would ask, and people have asked me, but you're in a better position in theory than I. Did you have any inkling that something like September 11th was going to happen? Bob Ellis  23:53 Well, actually, September 11th was was happening. I left for work about 4:30 in the morning. I lived out in the suburbs in Centerville, Virginia, and it was one of those days that you just wished you didn't have to go to work. It was the as the sun was coming up, it had a little cold breeze to it. The skies were blue. It was just one of those days that you just wanted to sit out in the yard and and relax or go bicycling, whatever. But I did my duty and I drove in to the Washington D.C. area and reported to my office on time, which was right around 5o'clock. My staff showed up around six and some at seven, and my secretary came in, and I don't know exactly what time it was, but it was shortly after, right around 9o'clock in Eastern Time, when the first airplane had hit the the trade center. Michael Hingson  24:49 Yeah, Bob Ellis  24:49 846-940-6846, Yes, right, 846. Yeah, and and so I I went in to look at the. The the television monitor standing there it was just her and I at the time and and and I said that's not an accident and she says how do you know that I said look at the skies that was an airliner they were talking about it was a little small private aviation well I'm a pilot I've been a pilot for 40 years 41 years I knew exactly, you know, that that where it was, what it was doing, and that wasn't a it wasn't an accident. And and my inkling was is that I was in a in rented space in Arlington, Virginia, because we had been moved out because the wedge that got attacked was the one that was still under construction. My office had not been completed there, and and I had a meeting in that wedge at 9o'clock that morning. And my secretary said to me, "You know, Bob, the Pentagon is next. And I paused for a minute and I looked at her and I said, "How in the world could you even imagine that, you know that that that's a fortress? Who would be crazy enough to attack the Pentagon? And she says, I I just I don't want you to go over, you know, just just just do it by phone, which I I probably could have done. And I said, No, I'm I'm going to go over there. If they're going if they're going to attack the Pentagon, I'm going to go down with it, and that was kind of my philosophy. So, in the back of my mind, seeing that airplane hit the Trade Center and her telling me that certainly made me wonder if it wasn't a possibility. Michael Hingson  26:33 So, you didn't. You don't think that anyone, and I've never heard of any such, but that anyone had any advance notice? There wasn't chatter. There wasn't anything that made people suspect what might be getting ready to happen. Bob Ellis  26:47 No, I I I think that is the the worst our country has ever been off guard. It reminds me of you know the the attack on Hawaii and that you know in in Pearl Harbor. We were completely unprepared, and I thought we were completely unprepared on 911. And in fact, after the attack, I knew we were unprepared when I saw the two jets fly over with no armament on the wings. So no, I don't think anybody had any idea. Michael Hingson  27:18 Well, the other side of it, and I've talked about this in in some talks I've given. I talk a lot about trust and teamwork, and like it or not, one of the things that I observe is you had 19 terrorists who functioned well enough as a team that they didn't talk about it. They didn't let anything come out. So no matter how much armament or whatever we might have had, I'm not sure whether we could have predicted that on September 11th, what occurred was going to happen. Bob Ellis  27:49 You know, all the indicators were there. You know, those those 19 trained at private airports, and they and during their training, it was it was reported multiple times that all they were interested in was taking off, not landing. I mean, first clue, you know. Okay. Why would you just be interested? He's taking off an airplane, and and I always found that very curious, and I'd heard it several times. That should have set alarm bells off. Should have. It didn't. Apparently, it did. Michael Hingson  28:20 Good point, and you know the the thing is though that, as as you pointed out, who would have thought that anybody would attack the Pentagon, the fortress that it was? Who Bob Ellis  28:33 yeah, Michael Hingson  28:33 who would have thought? So again, you can only go by what you got, and so nobody, I think, would have ever imagined that. Well, of course, the first plane hit the World Trade Center, and at first, people didn't really know what happened because there were really not very many people who who saw it. In fact, we only have the few photos that were taken by the French photographers who were there for something else, but then a little after nine, the second plane hit, and that changed the dynamic and changed the perspective a lot. Although a bunch of people who started seeing it on TV thought it was just a movie, and it wasn't true, but the second plane hitting changed the attitudes. I think for most people, and that's when people knew something was going on. Bob Ellis  29:24 Yeah, I didn't know anything about the second trade center. I had left my office in Crystal City, and I had headed to the Pentagon. And the meeting, the meeting that I had was with the Army Personnel Chief and several other folks. And as it turned out, that is exactly the window that the airplane flew into. That was ground zero for the for the for the target for the airplane going in just above the first floor for the Pentagon. So I didn't know anything. I was I was trapped at that point. I was trapped. Couldn't go um. Wouldn't go um. Didn't want to go um. And I had lived in New York City for five years, and I was my biggest. I was always impressed by the New York City Fire Department. I mean, they're they're just walking heroes if you've ever seen them. I mean, they were like they were like giants when you got next to them, and that they would they were just superhumans. And I always wondered upon the top floors how in the world you would get a fire put out at the top of the World Trade Center, and and I did not know until two days later when I made it home. That was my first question to my family: How did they get the the fire out at the top of the World Trade Center? And I and and it was repeated to me centers, and I said, What are you talking about? Centers in my family, and they said, "Bob, the World Trade Centers are gone. I said, "I don't understand. How could they be gone? And that was that. That was you know two days later that I found out about that. It was quite a shock to me to learn what it actually while I was on on the Pentagon mission. Michael Hingson  30:58 Well, when the first plane hit. Well, in the second plane, the firefighters were going up the stairs carrying all their equipment, and I had had had known about that and asked people, "Well, why are you or would you be carrying equipment? Because I met I I didn't meet the FDNY people ahead of the World Trade Center attacks, but I did meet with other people to learn about emergency preparedness and so on because I felt as the leader of an office, it was my job to know because I wasn't going to be able to read signs, and I love information, so I was trying to learn all I could, and they told me that where would if you if you had equipment stored in the in the towers, then people would go to it. Firefighters would go to it and get the the equipment. What floor do you put it on? Because no matter what floor you put it on, what if the fire broke out one floor below? You know, you can't get to the equipment. So the only way they could get up the stairs to fight the fires was to carry all of the equipment with them, yep, yep. Not enough is said about those guys in history. No, and I met a number of them coming up the stairs as we were going down, and they wanted to escort me down, and I didn't want them to do that because I knew they were a team, and I I pushed back pretty hard and said, no, you guys go up and we'll go down unless we can help you fight the fires, and they said no. The reason they eventually let me go down without any assistance was I had a friend with me who could see, and I said, "Look, David can see. Don't worry about us. And David and they turned to David and they said, "You're with him. And David said, "Yeah, leave him alone. He's fine. So we went on down, and they went up. I don't know whether the people we interacted with made it down or perished up above. It was about 10 after 10 after nine or so when we got to the 30th floor where we met them. So it was another hour and almost 20 minutes before the tower collapsed, but I don't know where the firefighters were, or how many people from the groups that we interacted with perished, or if they all made it out. I don't know, but Bob Ellis  33:12 yep, I I memorized all those numbers. You know, 189 between the airplane and the Pentagon, 200 injured, but 189. 189 total were 64 on the airplane, 125 in the Pentagon, and I'll never forget those numbers. Yeah, I'll never forget the time. I looked at my watch at 9:17, and and I have to tell you that on 9/11, I always sit very quietly until I get past 917, not 937. I'm sorry, 937. Michael Hingson  33:48 So Bob Ellis  33:48 in the morning. Michael Hingson  33:49 So, how close were you to where the plane came into the Pentagon? Bob Ellis  33:56 About 300 yards. When when it was clear that the meeting wasn't going to happen because the air traffic control system had been shut down. They released us to go back to our our offices, and I was going out the front door. I left about 930. It was supposed to start at nine 930. The generals said we'll just reconvene, and and I agreed. And from his office on on the south portico, I was walking out the front door. Literally, I heard the engines spool up. I had been in the AOR in rail combat munitions, and and I've heard cruise missiles, and and I could hear this one spinning up, and I thought it was a cruise missile, and so when it hit when it hit the building, it was just it was just a horrendous sound. But my first impression was to run to it to see what happened, what what what caused that, and there was nothing there. It was just four or five cars burning and smoke billowing out of the building. And and the the rest turned into a you know a rescue and a a recovery. Michael Hingson  35:08 AOR is what Bob Ellis  35:10 the area of responsibility. Michael Hingson  35:13 Okay, area of responsibility. Okay, Bob Ellis  35:16 yeah, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, wherever we are, it's it's N A O R, and that's your A O R. That's state. That's where you are. So that that's where I encountered first first and only live person coming out of the building, and which was a which was a really big surprise. But I knew that there was something that I I had to do, and and one of the things was to, if he needed assistance, getting him assistance. And there were several people. He was he was he was burned third degree burns over his whole body. He lived. I said one prayer was for him. And as it turned out, he became a a great ambassador. Turned out to be a great friend, and is actually back in the Pentagon to this day, just steps away from his old office as a civilian, went went back on a presidential appointment. Michael Hingson  36:09 So, you mentioned the general a while ago. Was did he survive? Bob Ellis  36:15 No, he was the he was the highest ranking person that we lost in in the entire encounter, and it was the entire office was just instantly vaporized. So he did not survive. Michael Hingson  36:33 Well, so you heard the engines revving up, and you went after you heard the explosion and so on. You went over to see what was going on, and then what did you do? Because it certainly had to be a major surprise and a shock by any standard. Bob Ellis  36:49 Yeah, I went that side of the building, saw the hole in the building, kind of convinced myself it was a cruise missile, but I never heard such a loud engine noise. As it turned out, it was it was two big engines off of a 757 200, and so I immediately tried to figure out you know what can I do? What should I do? Should I even be here? And that's when I saw the colonel coming out of the building, and I was able to walk with him and four others over to the the road, the Washington Boulevard that goes around the Pentagon, and and I sat down on the telephone pole, a light pole that the airplane hit going in. Now I'm a pilot, and and I have to tell you to take an airplane going at Mach point eight seven, and hit a target, hit the building, and not hitting the ground was just absolutely amazing to me. So as they got the colonel into an SUV and and and got him out of the the scene, I sat there. Just it was almost like a movie I was watching. The triage was being set up. The Pentagon was burning. The emergency services units were starting to show up, and we had very intermittent phone capability. And I had I had a a friend, my my the commander that I worked for in Dallas at the time. This secretary's husband was a bodyguard for Secretary Rumsfeld, and and Secretary Rumsfeld was actually carrying litter patients, carrying people out of the debris area and out of the offices. He was actually helping people, and he he realized that something needed to be done. So he gave Jerry a note, a piece of paper. We called them snowflakes, but it was a tablet, and he had listed what needed to be done and what needed to be done now. And Jerry found me sitting over there and gave me that that piece of paper, and it had everything listed on it. He wanted a a tactical field operation in place. He wanted it now, not yesterday. He wanted something in the interim, and it was to provide emergency relief supplies. So I I sat down on that telephone pole and I called our our local dist not local our largest distribution center in the world was down in Newport News, and I got the director on the phone and I said, I have an official order from you coming from the Secretary of Defense, and and don't override, don't just just follow my instructions until we can get to the commander at AFIS headquarters, and so I gave him the list. I just gave him the full list of things that we needed to get rolling, and I called another gentleman that was just across the river, the American Logistics Association, which owned all of the brokers and manufacturers, and I gave him a list of stuff that we needed now, like Gatorade boots. the The surface was over 2000 degrees, and the emergency service boots were melting almost upon contact. So I had I had 1000s, hundreds of 1000s of dollars of equipment. And supplies coming in, and we set up the USO tent, put everything in the USO tent. We raided all the stores in the in the Washington D.C. area. I was able to contact the region manager, and I told him, you know, what we needed to take it off the shelf, put it in the back seat of the cars, don't account for it, and get it to me. And that's what we did the entire first night was setting up the USO trailer, and the next morning I had two tactical field tractor trailers coming up the ramp just as the sun was coming up, and they were loaded with supplies, and that's what stayed in place for the next two months. Over $2 million worth of merchandise, emergency recovery type merchandise, everything from linens to the towels to eye wash, and and and we had to actually have some special boots made out of leather for the dogs because the dogs' feet were so it was it was quite an operation. We ended up well running within within 24 hours of the attack, Michael Hingson  41:04 why is it that you are able to stay pretty focused through all of this? Bob Ellis  41:08 I you know I you know I I've often asked that question. I wanted to go home. Alls I could think of is my kids, my wife. What what are they doing? What are they thinking? They're watching this on the news, and I had I had drifted over to which my car was very close, and it was taped off. The parking lot was taped off. It was a crime scene. There was no going anywhere. There was no transportation. If I wanted to walk 40 miles, I guess I could have, but because I couldn't go anywhere, I had to do something there on the scene, so that's that's that's what I did, and and it wasn't until the next day when the phone started working again, our two star in Dallas was able to get through to me on on my BlackBerry, and he wanted to know what the situation was, and and and I told him, and and he said, what what are we going to do? And I explained to him what we had done already, and he says, "How did you do all of that? I said, "I picked up the phone and I told him I was working for Secretary Rumsfeld, and this is the order. And and he says, "How are we going to pay for all of this? I said, "Sir, this is our finest hour. We're not. We're going to donate. These are all donating goods, and and it really was an interesting. I I just I just don't know. I was compelled. He he he ordered me on that second day to go home, and and I said I had no way to go home. And he said go to the motor pool. I'm going to call the motor pool. He had been the commander of the Air Force One Squadron, so he had a lot of connections in Washington, and he he got me a car, and I went home long enough to change clothes and and and to come back out. So it was it was just out of adrenaline, I think. Somebody had to do something, and and everything that I've told you here today is not written anywhere in history. I own every bit of what happened in in in that story, other than some of the people that were working there. Michael Hingson  43:07 What phone did you use that first day? You said you're you're it was the second day or the next day that you're phoned. So how were you able to communicate? Bob Ellis  43:17 We had Blackberries, and and until the networks got completely overrun, we were able to use it. And and so by the second third day, we we had pretty consistent communication, because the the the commander called me back that same morning, and and he said, you know, he said, how come you haven't been home? And I explained to him, and he says, "Will you do me one favor? And I said, "I would. He said, "Will you go back into the building? Said, "Sir, the building's on fire. He says, "Well, well, you get in the front, and I'm looking at it. He was looking at it on television, and the military clothing store was in the very front, within 100 feet, probably of that door that I went out of. And he says, "Would you see if our people survive, and if the store itself survived? It was sitting near the the area. I went in the store. I went into the building, into the burning building, and was able to look in the door, and I could see that the the room was full of smoke, and the door was locked. So I told him I would assume that our people made it out, alive and okay. And they say that was a, and they did, and they absolutely did. And in fact, everybody that that that that had any kind of supervisory capability around the Beltway, they volunteered to come over and work for me and and operating that facility for 2024 hours a day, seven days a week. Wow! So and not and not to shorten the the question, I wasn't there, but because of what I was doing in the in the Pentagon, my old homestead was at Fort Hamilton. Fort Hamilton picked up the same thing and went over to the Trade Center area, and they gave them a place to put a mobile. Food truck, and they brought supplies in and pretty much supported the firefighters and the and the and the police there. So so we had quite an operation going for a long time. Michael Hingson  45:11 Yeah, and and needed to, but it was interesting and commendable that in both places people were able to focus, and were able to carry out missions. I know at the World Trade Center when the two towers collapsed. Of course, it was it was unexpected, but we know now, of course, why they collapsed. It wasn't that the planes hit; it's that they were they were full of what 36,000 pounds of jet fuel each, and that exploding jet fuel is what damaged the infrastructure of the buildings to cause them to be able to collapse. But as well as at the Pentagon, but very quickly people were able to start to move and deal with issues and put procedures in place that were able to, I'm sure, keep more people from perishing and keep kept more people being able to focus throughout the whole the whole sequence of events. It it certainly was very scary, but it is something that that people like you were able to do. I know for me, the reason I was able to focus was because I had learned what to do in an emergency at the World Trade Center. I spent time with people and I learned how the whole building was structured, so I knew when the building tipped, why it tipped, and and things like that. You Bob Ellis  46:40 felt it. You you felt it. Michael Hingson  46:43 Oh yeah. Oh my god. We moved probably at least 20 feet, and then it came back, and oh my Speaker 2  46:48 god, it Michael Hingson  46:48 got vertical again. It got vertical again, and then a few seconds later, it dropped about six feet because the expansion joints went back to their normal configuration. But Bob Ellis  46:59 we uh we we knew from 937 till about 5o'clock that evening there would be no more survivors. It was over, and and and the dogs were getting depressed because they were they were they were not cadaver dogs. They were recovery dogs, and they were used to fight. And we we actually had ceremonies for the dogs every day, where we sewed flags onto their collars, and they had special water and special food. So they played a big, big role in morale, mine especially. Michael Hingson  47:33 And at the same time, I know people had to do drills to keep the dogs focused because they weren't able to find people, as you said, so they had to do things to give them something to find to keep them happy, which was was so important. Bob Ellis  47:50 Yeah, that we had two two tractor trailers lined up. It was just just two 300 feet from where you went into the damaged area of the Pentagon, and those dogs and their handlers would get up underneath those trailers and sleep, and they would play with the dogs. We actually had some carpets brought out, tarps brought out, and that's kind of where that was kind of their headquarters during 911. We had to make it up as we went along, and and the other interesting part of this story is in 1972 at the at the refugee camp, I was sleeping in the back of a van because there was just no way to go home. It was too it was too far to drive home to turn around and come back at 8o'clock the next morning, and I heard somebody knocking at the door, and and and I and I opened up the door, and it was a military colonel in uniform, and there was a civilian standing there with him. And he says, "Are you part of this operation? And I said, "Yes, sir, I am. He said, "Who are you with? And I said, "The Army Air Force Exchange Service. And and he says, "You're not provided any other facilities. This, I said, that was my choice. And as it turned out, I was speaking to Secretary Rumsfeld during his first administration as Secretary of Defense, and it was interesting that when he found out that what I did in in that program, I won the Indo Indo China Award for service, and then of course you you move ahead to to 2001, and we we knew each other. I had briefed him several times, and we we knew each other in the Pentagon. And that day, he knew that I would know what to do for the support role, and that's why he sent the letter up. And as it turned out, when he retired and and left the Pentagon, he was on a book tour, and and the the general secretary and myself got an invite to come to the book tour with him and and have lunch with him. And he handed me a book and he said, "I want you to have this, but I don't want you to open it up until you, Bob. I don't want you to open it up till you get home. I don't want you to give it to your wife. And and it was like this. Sure, I'm not not a problem, and so I got I got home. You know, this is this is 10 years later, and handed the book to her, and I said, "Open it up. I'm not wasn't allowed, and there's a nice thank you page on the front from Secretary Rums for allowing him to use me on 9/11, and you just you just that's the best reward that I could have ever ever expected. A guy that I just idolized to do that. Michael Hingson  50:26 When you got home, so you weren't able to talk to your wife before you got home, or did you ever get communication so you could call her? Bob Ellis  50:33 No, I didn't. I when I finally got the phone back up and running and got in the car. I had lost the battery, so I said, "I'm gonna be home in in an hour. I'll just be there. But General Wax called up, and she answered the phone. She went. She went sometime during that day and pulled the kids out of the private school, brought them home. She could see my car. It was a yellow SUV, and she could see it in the South parking lot in the news choppers going around. She said that was my car where my spot was, and General Wax got her on the phone and she and and she answered the phone and he said this is C J Wax and she thought that was the call. She thought that was it, and she alls I could do was drop to my knees and and and C J said and it's it's okay. I've ordered him to come home. He's all right. He's running. He's running a a program for us for for recovery. And if he's not there, he should be there shortly. And then by the time I got there, I got to the front step. I'm asking the question about the World Trade Center, how they got the fire out, and I was ordered that I could not go in the house because I smelled like smoke. So, so two minutes before that, I was the most important person in the world, and and then all of a sudden, I was I was back to Bob, and I wasn't going to wear that that suit in the house to to smoke it. So anyway, that's that's how she found out. He he called her up. I asked him. I think I asked him if he would get in touch with her at our last conversation, and he did. Michael Hingson  52:06 Soon after both towers collapsed, like a minute or so later, I called and got through to my wife Karen. I had talked with her before we left our office, and then when we got downstairs, I couldn't get through to her because the circuits were busy, and it was obvious that everyone we learned later was saying goodbye to loved ones, and so the circuits were busy. So after both towers collapsed, I was able to get through to her, and as I tell people, there were tears on both sides of the phone at the when that conversation started, but she was the first one who told us how two aircraft had been crashed into the World Trade Center towers, one to the Pentagon, and at that time, the fourth one was apparently still missing over Pennsylvania, and of course, then it crashed at Shanksville. Bob Ellis  52:52 I love it. Michael Hingson  52:54 Yeah, but we, you know, we talked, so she knew I was okay. Then a friend of ours, Tom Painter, who had been a friend of Karen's at high school out in California, but Tom, over the years, had ended up moving to New Jersey. He came down to stay with her, not knowing until he arrived whether I was in the office that day or out with a customer or what was going on. And of course, then she told him, and so he drove her to the train station to pick me up. When, when I got back out to Westfield, we went home. And you talk about with with dogs. We got in the house, and I took Roselle's harness off because I was going to take her out, and she would have none of it. She ran off, grabbed her favorite tug bone and started playing tug of war with my retired guide dog Linny, and I talked to the veterinarians at Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael the next day, and they said, "Did anything threaten her? And I said, "No, not directly. And they said, "That's why she ran off because it was over. Nothing threatened her. Bob Ellis  53:58 Comfortable. Michael Hingson  53:59 She, they don't. Dogs don't do what if like we do, and so she was comfortable. She was happy. She wanted to play, and then then she did go out. But by the same token, the the whole point was that she was able to deal with with all of it and was able to to focus. Then we got her outside and and came back in, and she ate and and all that. But the the the thing is that she focused all day, and and she did a a wonderful job. And the reason that she focused and did so well was mainly because I worked at keeping her focus by telling her every chance I got. You're a good girl. What a good dog! Good dog. You're doing a great job. Keep going. I did that all the way down the stairs in the World Trade Center, and I was very deliberate about that because I knew she had to sense the fear and what was going on, and I wanted her to know that I was okay and I was going to be there for. Her, which is of course what teamwork and support is all about. You understand that very well. You you proved it in so many ways. I kept working with Roselle and kept her focused, and you know it all it all really went well. I still think one of the most relevant things for me in the World Trade Center. I went down the stairs with a guy named David Frank. David was from our corporate office in California, and David and I were going to be conducting sales seminars that day, teaching some resellers how to sell our products. And we got down to about the 50th floor, so David was there to talk about the the pricing and so on. I was going to do the majority of the presentation because I was going to be their technical contact, anyway, and we got to about the 50th floor, going down, and suddenly David said, "Mike, we're going to die. We're not going to make it out of here. And as I tell people, since I got a teaching credential, I had learned all about the secrets of how to yell at students. So I just said, "Stop it, David. If Roselle and I can go down these stairs, so can you. And he then immediately said that I brought him out of his spunk, and he told me that later as well. But what he told me was that he wanted to walk a floor below me on the stairs and shout up to me everything that he was seeing. He had to take his mind off of what was going on, and so he asked if I cared, and I said, "No, go ahead. That's what you need to do. That's fine. So I got like down to the 48th floor, and he yelled, "47th floor, Mike. All's clear here. Going on down. So we went down several floors that way. Eventually, I got to 45, and he was 44th floor. This is where the Port Authority cafeteria is not stopping. And the reason I mention it is because I think what David did is one of the unsung things that is so important from September 11th. He kept shouting up to me everything that he saw, but the reality is, anyone in the sound of his voice heard that there was someone who was okay going down the stairs, and he had to keep panic out of people's senses for so many individuals, because they just heard him, Mike, 43rd floor, all's good here. Going on down the stairs, all the way down the stairs. He had to have been able to keep so many people focused because he was able to keep his mind off of what was going on by shouting to me, and I think that that's so important, and so I'm. I always tell that story. I've been telling it for many years now because I want people to know what he did to keep so many people focused going down the stairs, and he had to have done that. Bob Ellis  57:31 Well, you know, I have. That's that's the first I've heard that, and and and and I read everything that I followed your story very closely, as well as the colonel who I was so close to, but there there are a couple of stories that are just never mentioned, not talked about, and one of them where we had to do every day. There was an update that the military gave the families an update as to what is happening, what was found, what was recovered, what to expect, and they would bring the kids in to listen to these brutal military briefings. I mean, just you know, these were these were soldiers, these were these were combat folks, and this is the way they briefed. And the therapy dogs were brought in, and there wasn't but about a dozen of them, and I will never forget not only the kids on the floor with the arms around those dogs, but some of the adults were as well. And I thought, what what a moment! That was the most touching moment of my entire life witnessing that. I mean, I could have done without it, but it was it was a very special moment. And then the the other thing that the world doesn't know about is on the second day, I got a I got a phone call from Secretary Rumsfeld's office that the VA was completely out of coffin flags. We had nothing in inventory to to cover the remains or the caskets for burial, and what could I do? And and right right from the Pentagon parking lot, I I called one of the buyers that bought American flags in Dallas, and then I asked her who do you get flags from, and she says it's American Flag Company. I'll give them credit for that, and and I said you need you need to get their entire inventory. We need to get it flown in, whatever expenses cover it, and get them here. The Pentagon doesn't have them, and New York doesn't have them. And those flags came in. They were they were there about that midnight that that that night. Now boxed up, thrown in the bag box, whatever tape they were bound, but everybody that came out later, you know, the recoveries as we got deeper into the debris, that had a had a flag that that came that came from us in the as well as at the Pentagon, and they put two very big special flags in there. I mean, like you see flying over a car dealer. And they hung that on the side of the Pentagon. And if you look at any of the any of the news willers of that time, it was on day two that flag was hanging that that came in with the rest of the other flags. So it was it was quite impressive. You never know what the next moment was going to bring you on you know from my side and and and can I meet the challenge? That was what I constantly worry about. How could I let any of this down? And I've got to do something. And and we were making it up as we went along. Michael Hingson  1:00:33 Yeah, that's all you could do. And so when I go back to Bob Ellis  1:00:37 to to this to this day, you know, we go back. They've got 184 markers. I don't know how many people attend it, but it's it's right in that zone, right outside the building, in that grassy area where they they they've made that memorial. And 184 people, to include I think two infants, are are memorialized there forever, which is very touching. It was a that was a hard place to go back to. Still was New York City when I went to it because I'd never I had never been 20 years 20 years yet 18 years before I ever went to to New York City to see the recovery there. I've never I've not been to the to the to the Pennsylvania field. I plan to go. I want to go. Just hadn't been convenient to get there, but but if I do that, I will have seen all all the sites. Michael Hingson  1:01:26 Yeah, I haven't been to Pennsylvania either. In 2017, I did make it to the World Trade Center Museum. In well, so we moved out of Westfield, and I moved back to California in late January, beginning of February of 2002, to work for Guide Dogs for the Blind and and speak from there. And traveled around and speak. Karen was there for a couple more months selling our home, and then she came out. But in May of 2002, Roselle was going to be honored by Hart's Mountain, the pet food and pet supply company. So, so we went back to New York, and while we were there, I met one of the police officers with with one of the service with one of the rescue dogs that that had been around the World Trade Center, and he arranged for us to get in a vehicle and drive down into the pit that was where the World Trade Center was, and they had built an artificial, well, a temporary road, and they were bringing things up, but we got to go down to what would have been the seventh sublevel, the bottom of the tower, and it was just a for me just imagining it standing in that dirt area in a hole seven stories deep and remembering what what it was like, and then in 2017 I went to the World Trade Center Museum and got to spend a little bit of time there, and of course everything had been rebuilt. The reflecting pool was there, and so on. But it was nothing like what I remembered from having been in the World Trade Center, and I walked around with someone who was able to be aware and describe what was where we were and what was above us, or what part of the building we were in as we walked through the complex. But of course, it was totally different. So it was it was such a strange feeling to experience all of that. But we did it, you know. And so now I've been to the museum, and actually there is a there's an animal exhibit in the basement, and Roselle's collar is is part of that exhibit. We donated that to oh Bob Ellis  1:03:50 really, oh really, oh God, I I was I was thinking that when I asked you that question earlier today, and I was thinking about that that has got to be remarkable, you know that that that's what touched me so much at the period. That the fact that the two of you were such a team, and I read everything that newspapers printed and watched. I guess there was some there was some CBS specials and so forth too, where you were interviewed, and it was it was just it was just absolutely amazing. Michael Hingson  1:04:21 Well, it is. you know, it is a an awe-inspiring sort of thing. And you know, people always say, you know, don't you feel guilty about surviving when so many people didn't? And and I said, no, I I didn't have any control over that. But what I do have control over is having been a survivor. What am I going to do about it? It's my responsibility to decide how I'm going to deal with moving forward after something like that. And of course, the opportunity opened to travel and speak, and so I've been doing it ever since. And I believe my job is. Is to educate people about what happened on September 11th, and let them know t

A Secret Service Agent Became a First Responder on Sept. 11

Mikaila Cruz had just arrived into work in the World Trace Center, New York City on the 11th of September, 2001 when the first plane hit Tower One. She talks us through the details of what she witnessed that day and how she manages to live with the trauma. We are incredibly grateful to her for sharing her story with us.

Twenty-five years after September 11, I still believe that day has important lessons to teach us about fear, preparation, and leadership. This time, Michelle Abraham from AmplifYou takes over the hosting seat and interviews me about my experience escaping the World Trade Center with my guide dog, Roselle. We talk about why knowing the building and its emergency procedures mattered, how I worked to keep fear from taking control, and why focusing on what I could control helped me keep moving. I also share how September 11 changed the direction of my life, led me into professional speaking, and helped shape the Unstoppable Mindset philosophy I continue to share today. Highlights: 02:30 – The ordinary morning that became September 11. 08:04 – How preparation shaped Michael's response when the tower was hit. 18:34 – How Michael and David helped keep panic from taking over. 27:15 – Why trusting Roselle mattered during the collapse. 31:38 – The lesson of focusing only on what you can control. 41:52 – How September 11 helped shape the Unstoppable Mindset philosophy. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Everyone, I am Michael Hingson, the host of Unstoppable Mindset. You've heard my voice for the last 471 episodes, but I'm calling you all out today and asking you to listen to this because we're going to make a special announcement now regarding the next four episodes, starting with 472. We're going to help commemorate the historic events of September 11, 2001. Yes, they're definitely historic, although not necessarily the most positive things that have ever happened. But as many of you may know, I was in the World Trade Center working on September 11, 2001, on the 78th floor of Tower One, and escaped with my guide dog. I've delivered a speech about that, which we put in the first episode of this podcast series back in August of 2021. But this Friday, episode 472 is going to have an updated speech that I delivered just a few years ago at the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival. That festival is a yearly event celebrating different kinds of things that have happened in American history, and I was invited to come and speak, which I did. I'm going to put that speech up for you as episode 472. I think you'll find it enlightening. It'll teach you something about blindness and blind people. It'll tell you my story, and it'll give you some inspiration that I hope you will find helpful. Next Tuesday, september 8, Michelle Abraham is going to interview me. Michelle is with Amplify You, the company that does all of our back office stuff and helps me with the editing and other things regarding the podcast. Michelle owns her own podcast, and she is going to interview me about September 11th and other kinds of things relating to what I've learned and things that have happened over the past 25 years. She's also going to be putting this up on her podcast Amplify You, so you can find us in a lot of different places. On September 11th, I'm going to chat with Bob Ellis. Bob was in the Pentagon on September 11, 2001, and had literally just walked out the door of the Pentagon when the plane crashed into the Pentagon and did the things and the damage that it did, and of course generated all the things that occurred at the Pentagon. On the 15th of September, I'm going to come back and have a conversation with all of you about lessons that I've learned over the past 25 years, and just reminisce a little bit about all of that. While the podcast is occurring on September 11th, I will be actually in Kilgore, Texas, doing a speech about September 11th. So lots of things going on, I hope you listen to these episodes. I hope that you'll tell everyone that you can about them. I really enjoy all of the support that you've given us over the years, and we're going to continue to do things with Unstoppable Mindset. And of course, as always, if you'd like to come on or know anyone who would, please let us know. We're always looking for guests. Thanks very much. We'll see you on Friday with the first of these four episodes. What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingson, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head-on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. When and today is a little bit different than what we normally do because I'm going to be the guest on the podcast, Michelle Abraham from Amplify You, who is also putting this particular podcast episode on her podcast, but Michelle is going to mainly be interviewing me. As many of you should know, this is the 25th commemoration or remembrance of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, and we thought it would be very relevant to to spend some time on a few podcast episodes talking about that a little bit. Michael Hingson  04:46 For those of you that listened to the last episode before this one, you heard me deliver my speech talking about what happened to me on september 11. I used. A speech that we we delivered just a couple of years ago. So it's a little bit different than the one that, if you listen to the initial episodes of Unstoppable Mindset, you heard way back 472, 473 episodes ago. But this one still tells the the same story, which is which is kind of cool, and so we're going to talk about that, and we'll talk about our next episode, which will be delivered on September 11th, and that one will be a conversation between me and Bob Ellis, who was in the Pentagon on September 11th, and so that'll be a little bit fun, and then we'll talk about some other stuff as well. But I'm going to turn this over to Michelle because she's the the interviewer, the the boss, and I'm just a guest today. So hi, Michelle. Amplifyou   05:50 Hey, Michael. Well, thanks for being a guest on your own show today for us. It's great to be here with you, and we've been with you all along the Instoppable Mindset Show. It's been really fun to work with you on this show, and so I know we've had we've recorded episodes around your story, and our listeners would have just listening to your keynote. But I would like to tap into Michael 25 years later. When you think back of the morning of September 11, 2001, what comes to your mind? It Michael Hingson  06:23 was a typical day. We we did have a thunderstorm about 1230 that morning, and Roselle, my fifth guide dog, who was my guide dog at the time, was afraid of thunder. She had developed this phobia. The theory, basically, about dogs being afraid of thunder is it's not just the thunder sounds, but it's also the fact that the dogs have a static charge that builds up on their fur, and that gives them a tingly and kind of a strange feeling, and between that and the thunder, they learn to equate the two, and that just causes a lot of angst. And in Roselle's case, at 1230 in the morning, we weren't even hearing a thunderstorm, but she started getting really nervous, and so I took her down to my office. And as I was going downstairs, we started hearing thunder, and the storm actually came right over our house. So I love to say God clearly has a sense of humor of some sort because the thunder-I had never heard thunder like I heard That morning, that is, literally, it came right over our house, so we heard what were explosion sounds. It was it was different than I had ever heard before, but I didn't have any message that said you shouldn't go into the World Trade Center or go to work that day, and I had been planning on going to work that day because we were going to be conducting some sales training seminars, teaching about 50 people from a bunch of resellers under the auspices of Ingram Micro, our major distributor. We were going to be teaching them how to sell our products, so I was going to be there. David Frank, a colleague from our corporate office, was going to be there. He was flying. He flew in to deal with the pricing and distribution models that the Ingram Micro salespeople and resellers would be dealing with, but I was going to be doing the majority of the seminar. Well, anyway, at 1230, I took Roselle down and we stayed there in my office at home until 2o'clock, and then the thunderstorm had passed away and Roselle had calmed down. So we went back up and got to sleep, and woke up at five in the morning, which is what I originally planned on doing. I'd actually planned on going in a little bit earlier than usual, just to be able to spend more time preparing. And I got to the New Jersey train station in Westfield, the New Jersey Transit train station, at somewhere around 615, and I had been planning on taking a 6:18 train into the city. And at about 6:20 or 6:21, train having not arrived, an announcement came over the PA system that there was a problem with the train, and another train would be coming. The next train would be there in a little bit, and we could get on it, and and all that. The day was a calm day. It was a nice autumn day. was great. No indication of of anything to worry about. And I didn't read anything into trains not working, much less the thunderstorm before. So when the train finally arrived, I got on the train and we went into Newark. Then I caught the train that takes me directly to the World Trade Center. It's called Path Train. Path stands for Port Authority Trans Hudson, and that train went straight in from Newark Penn Station with the well to the World Trade Center, and so I got there. And by the time all of a sudden done, I got there at the normal time I would get there rather than getting there 20 or 25 minutes earlier. Go figure, but I went upstairs and I went to the office and there was a person standing outside the door with a big cart. We had ordered breakfast for all the early arrivals, and so I took him in and showed him where to set up, and then I went in. And got my laptop projector and other things that I needed to be able to set up to do the presentations, and went in and set all that up. And then David Frank, my colleague from our corporate office, got there about 8o'clock and helped do the final things, like making sure the projector was totally appropriately aimed. His aim is better than than mine was, anyway. Michael Hingson  10:21 So again, everything was proceeding just as we expected it to do. David came with some early arrivals from Ingram Micro, and we put them in the in the conference room where we were going to be doing the presentations, and the the cart was all set up so they could have breakfast. As I love to tell people, best ham and cheese croissants in the city-they're still good, as far as I remember-but all was was going well, and so we we were getting prepared. And the last thing we had to do before the seminars were to start was to create a list of all the people who would be attending that day and put it on letterhead. We had a spreadsheet with all the names, but we had to put it on letterhead and then fax the list on letterhead to the Port Authority security people so that they would have a list that they would recognize was legitimate. And then when people came into the World Trade Center, they'd go up to the security counter, they'd show their ID, and their names would be compared with a list, and if their name was on the list, then they would just be given a badge with a a barcode where they could go to the appropriate elevator and come up to our floor. So that was kind of the last thing we had to do before the seminars were to start. Amplifyou   11:34 Kind of sounds like business as a norm and business as usual kind of morning for you. It Michael Hingson  11:40 was. It was a total business as usual morning, by every stretch of the imagination. No clue about anything else. Amplifyou   11:48 So, did you guys begun your seminar when the the troy towers were hit? Michael Hingson  11:55 No, the seminar was supposed to start at 9o'clock, and literally, I was reaching for letterhead to print the list at about 845, 846. When suddenly we heard a muffled kind of explosion, the building sort of shuddered. And then, if you imagine my hand as the tower, literally as I'm tipping my hand towards the camera, that's exactly what the tower did. It started tipping and tipping and tipping, and we moved maybe about 2025 feet before the building stopped. Now the thing is that I had spent time learning all I could know about the World Trade Center, learning what to do in an emergency, learning what the fire department did, learning what the police would do, learning where the emergency exits were, learning about all the emergency evacuation procedures, and the reason that I learned all of that was I had opened this office for Quantum Corporation, and I was the Mid-Atlantic region sales manager. I was the leader. I was going to be the person who would be running the office, and I knew that I needed to do what any other leader would do difference being I didn't see stuff, so I needed to learn rather than rely on signs and other things that most sighted people would do. I actually had to learn everything to be able to function. But the difference is that by doing that, what I didn't really realize was I was creating a mindset that says you know what's going on, you know what to do. I knew why the building tipped because tall buildings like that are built with expansion joints. They're made to be buffeted in windstorms, and I had felt that happen many times at the World Trade Center. If there were a wind, we could feel it sort of shake a little bit. But who would have ever thought that somebody would fly into the building with a plane load of jet fuel, 36,000 pounds of jet fuel? But nevertheless, I knew all that I could learn about everything. I learned where different offices and built and and organizations were in the World Trade Center. I had explored the kiosks on the first floor and the shopping mall, so I knew where all the phone kiosks were and where other things were. I knew where the restaurants were, so that if we ever had guests in and we were doing demonstrations and then we were going to be negotiating contracts, we decided to take a break for lunch. I could say, "What kind of lunch do you want? "Oh, you want a deli sandwich? There's this great restaurant downstairs called Fine and Shapiro. Let me take you there, and I would take them. I would lead the way because I couldn't very well say, "Oh, I don't know how to get anywhere. I'm blind. Someone's going to have to lead me. How's that going to work a couple of hours later if we're negotiating multi-million dollar contracts? I needed to literally work, and I don't mean this in a negative way, but from a position of strength. I needed to know all of this in order to be able to do my job as the appropriate leader of the office, and so I learned all of that and put all of that together for whatever was going. On in the World Trade Center at any given time, and so when the building was struck and and the building was tipping, I was standing in my doorway, the doorway between my office and the other parts of of our facility, and the building tipped. David was holding on to my desk as it was tipping. Roselle was asleep under my desk, and finally, David and I were speculating about what was going on. He thought maybe it was an earthquake, and I said no because the building's not shaking around; it's going in one direction. I thought maybe it was just some sort of an explosion, which in a sense it was. But he said it didn't sound like it, and it didn't. But the issue was that we were 18 floors on average below where the tower was hit and on the other side of the building, but that was a calculation that came later. But the bottom line is that the building tipped and then it stopped, and it came back the other way and got vertical again. Amplifyou   15:54 That's incredible! Wow. Michael Hingson  15:56 And as soon as it got vertical, I went back into my office. I met Roselle coming out from under my desk. I took her leash. I told her to heal, which meant to come around on my left side, which she did. She sat down, and about that time, the building dropped straight down about six feet. Amplifyou   16:10 Wow! Michael Hingson  16:10 Now, the reason it dropped is because tall buildings like that are constructed with expansion joints, which is why that it tipped in the first place, and the building didn't break off, but then when it got to be vertical again, after a few seconds, literally the expansion joints contracted and the building went back to its normal configuration, which is exactly what happened. Amplifyou   16:32 Gosh, interesting like technology that that's built in there. I know you you never really I would never known that. Had you not explain that in the story? That's very interesting. That expands like that, and then the six foot drop was then it contracting Michael Hingson  16:47 again. The expansion joints were going back to normal configuration. Amplifyou   16:50 Interesting. If Speaker 1  16:55 you enjoy unstoppable mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week. We've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Amplifyou   17:28 And so there's so then what happened? So take us to the next steps. Michael Hingson  17:32 So the building dropped about six feet, and then David turned from holding onto my desk and looked out the window, looking south toward Battery Park, and he started shouting, "Oh my God, Mike! There's fire and smoke above us! There are millions of pieces of burning paper falling outside our window! And I could hear stuff going by our window, and I was wondering what it was because normally the sound was sort of like what window washers would do if they were on their tracks washing windows, but that wasn't what was going on. It was debris falling, and David was describing it: millions of pieces of burning paper falling outside our window, and he said, "We got to get out of here right now. And I said, "Slow down, David. We'll get out, but we're not going to rush. No, we got to get out of here right now. Slow down, David. We'll get out. Don't worry about it. And finally, I I said several times, "Slow down. He kept saying we got to get out of here right now, and then he used what I call the big line: "You don't understand. You can't see it. Well, first of all, I knew everything that David was seeing and saying because he was telling me about it. So I knew we had millions of pieces of burning paper. Clearly, he said, "There's fire and smoke above us, so the building's on fire. I had all that information, but the problem was that it wasn't what I wasn't seeing that was the issue; it was what David wasn't seeing. David wasn't seeing that sitting next to me was my guide dog Roselle, yawning and wagging her tail, going, "Who woke me up anyway? I was sleeping real good here, sports fans, and and Roselle was not reacting. I wasn't smelling anything that gave me an indication that we were in such peril that we had to run for our lives, and so I kept telling David to slow down. And finally, David did. He stopped. I said, "David, get our guests to the stairs. Do not let them take elevators, because I had learned, of course, that if the building's on fire anywhere, if fire gets into elevator shafts, then anybody in elevator cars is probably going to perish, which did happen. And so David took our guests out of our office, got them to the stairs, and I made it really clear: do not let them take elevators, because there could be fire in the elevator shafts. Well, he got them to the stairs, and then he came back. Meanwhile, I called my wife Karen to let her know that something had happened, or an explosion, or something. But we didn't know. People tell me all the time, even today. Well, of course you didn't know because you couldn't see it. You know, I think all these people who tell me I didn't know because I couldn't see it need to get a. The problem is they really don't know a whole lot about blind people. The airplane hit, on average, 18 floors above us. It hit between floors 93 and 99, so I just say 96, which is 18 floors above where we were in on the 78th floor. But it also hit on the other side of the building. It hit on the north side, and we were on the south side. The last time I checked, Superman and X-ray vision are fiction, and people can't really see through buildings, see through rebar and steel and concrete. The fact of the matter is that they no one knew what was going on. I didn't know, but other people did, and I'll prove that in a moment, but the fact of the matter is, you can't see through all that stuff. Blindness had nothing to do with it, but people keep saying, "Well, you didn't know because you couldn't see it. Well, yeah, well, we'll get to that. Anyway, David got our guest to the stairs. I called Karen. I told her that something had happened. We didn't know what. She wanted to know more, but there was nothing else I could tell her, and so we we parted. I just said, "I'll call you back as soon as I can, and by that, you know, the media hadn't even gotten the story yet. Michael Hingson  21:12 So I love to joke around and say that I beat Charlie Gibson in Good Morning America by eight minutes, but I still haven't gotten a Pulitzer Prize for it. But it's very disappointing. But anyway, so I disconnected with Karen. David came back. We swept the office. We went to the stairs, and we started down. Almost immediately, I began smelling an odor, and it was a familiar odor, but I couldn't quite place it. And it took me a while to realize I was smelling the fumes from burning jet fuel. I did a lot of traveling for my company, and so I was very used to what was in airports and the smells and the odors. But it took me like four floors to figure out that I was smelling burning jet fuel. Other people were speculating, wondering what happened, why were we evacuating, what was the building doing, why did it shake, and all that. And then I observed that I was smelling burning jet fuel, and other people said, "You're right. That's burning jet fuel. We must have been hit by an airplane. But you see, we didn't know. We had no clue. Eyesight had nothing to do with it. The fact is that we only figured out we were hit by an airplane because the blind guy realized he was smelling burning jet fuel, and so anyway, we went down the stairs. A couple of burn victims passed us along the way, and a woman, when we got down about 10 floors, stopped and she said, "I can't go on, and we're not going to make it out of here. And I literally just stopped and turned around and gave her a hug right there on the stairs. Roselle gave her some kisses, and other people stopped and joined us. And we all said, "Come on, you can keep going. You can do it. Let's go. And she was able to keep going as we went down the stairs. But we knew instinctively we had to make sure that panic didn't ensue on the stairs. Amplifyou   22:56 Right. Michael Hingson  22:57 We got to about the 50th floor, and then David suddenly said, and he had been getting quieter, but suddenly he said, "Mike, we're going to die. We're not going to make it out of here. And I said, in my best sharp voice, "Stop it, David. If Roselle and I can go down these stairs, so can you. And he told me that that brought him out of the funk that he was singing into. And he said, "I want to walk a floor below you, if it's okay, and I'll tell you whatever I see on the stairs. But I got to do something to get my mind off of worrying about all this stuff. Is that okay? And I said, sure. If that's what you need to do, go ahead. Did it really matter? Well, you know, it did to David, and that's all that really counted. But anyway, David walked a floor below us, and so when I got to the 48th floor, for example, I heard, "Hey, Mike, I'm on the 47th floor. All's good here. Going on down the stairs. We went down, and finally I got to the 45th floor. And David said, '44th floor is where I am. This is where the Port Authority cafeteria is. Not stopping. Going on down the stairs, and he did that all the way down the stairs. Why is that important? And why do I even mention it? Because we all did everything we could to keep panic from taking over on the stairs, and by definition, because David was just speaking up, "Hey, Mike, 42nd floor, all's good here, and just shouting up to me what he saw on the stairs and sounding confident. By definition, anyone who was in the sound within the sound of his voice heard someone who was sounding okay and just able to go down the stairs and wasn't seeing any problem, and so they focused on him, and that certainly had to help keep panic from ensuing on the stairs as we went down, and it's so often not even mentioned, but David had to do that for maybe hundreds or 1000s of people who could hear him all the way up and down the stairwell, and I think that's just one of the most important things that I remember about the day that David had to, by definition, help keep panic from going on on the stairs. Now, meanwhile, I was up. Encouraging Roselle, what a good dog, good girl, Roselle. Keep going, let's go, good dog, doing that all the way down the stairs. And I've had people come up to me at speeches that I've given ever since. For example, one in Kansas City, and a woman came up afterward, and she said, "I came into the stairwell on the 54th floor just as you passed by, and I heard you praising your dog and encouraging your dog and sounding very confident, I and other people just followed you because you sounded really good and you didn't sound like you had a problem at all and weren't afraid. We just followed you, so you know that's why I also know that what David was doing was so important because people focused on his voice. Amplifyou   25:42 How fascinating! Someone that was right behind you that day in the stairwell, too. Michael Hingson  25:46 Yeah, yeah. So we continued down. We got to the 30th floor, and that's where we met firefighters coming up. They wanted to help me go down the stairs, and I didn't want their help. I didn't need their help, first of all, but I didn't want their help because that would have meant we were always walking at least two abreast, and they were going to grab my arm and try to lift me as we were going downstairs and do other things that sighted people think you got to do if you're helping a quote a blind person go down the stairs. But there was a more important reason that I didn't want their help, and you know when the firefighter, the first guy, came up and he said, "We're going to send somebody with you. I kept saying, "No, don't do that. We don't need that. What I knew because of all that I had learned was that they were a team. They had to carry all their equipment up the stairs with them. Why? Where would you store it? Let's say you decided to store it on the 34th floor, and fire broke out on the 33rd floor. You'd never get to the equipment. They had to carry all their equipment up with them. They were a team, all 50 of those firefighters, and so I was not about to want to break up the team when, especially, I didn't need it anyway. And I I worked at getting them finally to focus, and I said, look, I got my guide dog here, and they started petting Roselle, and it wasn't the time to give them a lecture about don't pet a guide dog in harness. And by the way, don't pet a guide dog in harness. If you see a guide dog in harness, you can ask me if you can pet the dog, and if I have time, I will stop and I'll take the harness off because Roselle likes to relax, Alamo, my current guide dog, likes to relax. The dogs all love to relax, but if I don't have time, I'll say, "Look, we're kind of in a hurry, so sorry, but we just don't have time. But the firefighters were petting her, and it wasn't the time to give him a lecture about don't pet the guide dog and harness, and it wasn't the time to give him a lecture about don't worry about the blind guy just because he can't see and you can. The reality is that blindness isn't the problem; it's your attitudes about blindness that are more of the problem. But anyway, they finally agreed. When I finally said, "Look, I got my friend David over here who can see, and David and I are going down the stairs together, and they turn to David and they go, "You're with him. And David said, "Yeah, Lee Malone, he's fine. And mention all the hundreds Amplifyou   28:06 of people that are following you. Michael Hingson  28:08 Yeah, and and they all had to stop as we're talking to the firefighters. But anyway, so they eventually started going up the stairs, and I continued down. David reassumed his scouting position, and we followed David by a floor down the stairs, and and did what we needed to do, and then we we finally got to the first floor. Well, David did, and he said the water sprinklers are on. You're going to have to run through a curtain of water to get out of the stairwell, and the the reason there were sprinklers on is if there was fire in the stairwell, the water sprinklers would be keeping the fire from getting into the lobby. But if it were in the lobby, the sprinklers would be keeping the fire from getting into the stairwell. That's part of what was supposed to happen. Well, it it all worked perfectly. So David went through the curtain of water, and I got down to the first floor, and I took Roselle's harness and said forward and hop up and let's go. And we went through this curtain of water and came out the other side into the lobby of Tower One. There was a guy with a bullhorn going, "Go this way, no, no, don't go over that way, go this way, go to the central part of the building, don't go outside, no, no, don't go that way, go this way. And that was because that if they had gone outside, they would have been below where people were jumping, and you know who knows what else, so they didn't, and and they went to the central part of the building. We got out, and I was hearing the guy with the bullhorn. This guy comes up to David and me, and he said he's with the FBI, and he'll take us where we need to go. And I asked him what's going on. He said, "There's no time to tell you. I wish he had, but he didn't know me. He didn't know that information was what I really valued more than anything else, and I wasn't going to panic just because I heard information. But he took us through the complex and eventually up an escalator by the borders books, as far away from the towers as we could be, and then we got out. And as soon as we got out, David saw fire in Tower Two. We had no idea where that came from. We speculated that maybe our building, which had been tipping toward Tower Two, had its fire sort of jump across, maybe somehow. But we didn't know what was going on, and so we were told to leave the area, which we did. We went over to Broadway, which is again what we were told to do and told to get away from the complex, so we went over to Broadway and started walking north on Broadway. So as we were walking north, on my left side was the building, on my right side was Broadway. We're on the west side of Broadway as we're going north, and we passed several streets, and then after we passed all the well, we passed a number of streets, and we finally got to Vessi Street. And David said, "You know, we're very close to Tower Two. I want to take pictures of this fire I see in Tower Two. I said, "Okay. I took out my phone. I tried to call Karen. I couldn't get through. The circuits were busy, as we now know. Of course, people were saying goodbye to loved ones, but for me, I couldn't get through, so I put my phone away. And David was putting his camera away when a police officer yelled, "Get out of here! It's coming down now! And we heard this sound, as I describe it, as kind of a combination of a freight train and a waterfall. What we heard was Tower Two collapsing like 100 yards away from us. You could hear glass breaking and shattering, you could hear metal clattering, and then the white noise of Tower Two just collapsing straight down, which is exactly what it was supposed to do. David and everyone turned and ran. I lifted Roselle by the harness, turned her 180 degrees, and started running back the way I came. David was long gone. Michael Hingson  31:36 I got to the next street back that we had crossed a little while before, and that was Fulton Street. Turned right on Fulton to get more of a building between us and what was collapsing, and we ran about 25 yards and caught up to David. It turns out that we had gone the same way he went, but he had stopped realizing that he had left me and was going to come back and find me. But I found him first, and he apologized. I said, "Don't worry about it, David. Let's keep going. And we kept running. We got caught in all the dirt and the dust and the debris from Tower Two's collapse. As David said, he couldn't see his hand six inches in front of his nose. For my part, I couldn't. With every breath I took, I could feel debris going down my throat into my lungs and settling. It was crazy, and we ran, and eventually, I decided we got to get out of this. So I started telling Roselle right, right, giving her hand signals. I don't know whether she could hear me over the noise of the building collapsing, or whether she could see my hand signals. But I kept telling her to turn right because I wanted her to, because there was a building on my right. Now that we were going the other way, I wanted her to go into the nearest opening that she could find. As we ran, I suddenly heard an opening, and Roselle obviously knew what I wanted because she turned right. She took one step. She stopped. She wouldn't move. Come on, Roselle, keep going. She wouldn't move. Come on, Roselle, you can do it. Keep going. She wouldn't move, and I realized, wait a minute, she's a guide dog. She's doing what she's supposed to do. She stopped for a reason, which she had. I checked. I stuck out my foot, stuck a hand out along the wall, discovered we were at the top of a flight of stairs. Roselle had done her job perfectly. She stopped. So when I gave her the command to go forward, she went down the stairs, and we went down into what was the Fulton Street subway station, and we were there for about 15 minutes or so. Then a police officer found a bunch of us together and said, "The air is clear up above. You need to leave now. And didn't wait for a response; just turned, and we all followed him back to the stairwell, up the stairs, through the little arcade that we had we had passed through part way down the stairs before, up the rest of the stairs and got outside. David looked around and he said, "Oh my God, Mike, there's no Tower Two anymore. And I said, "What do you mean? He said, "All I see are pillars of smoke, hundreds of feet tall. There's no Tower Two. It's gone. Are you sure, David? "Yeah, it's gone. It's not here. We stood there for a moment, and then we continued to walk west on Fulton Street. And we walked for about 10 minutes, and then we were in this little plaza area when suddenly we heard that freight train waterfall sound again, and we figured it was probably our tower collapsing. David looked back and he saw another dust cloud coming our way, and in this plaza where we were, there was a small retaining wall, probably a planter or something, but anyway, there was a retaining wall. We got behind it, we ducked down, and we just waited till everything passed us by and stopped. And then we got up, and David looked around and he said, "Oh my God, Mike, there's no World Trade Center anymore. And I said, "What do you see? And he said, "All I see are fingers of fire and flames, hundreds of feet tall, and pillars of smoke. It's gone. The towers and everything are gone. And we stood there a moment, not able to fathom it. Then I tried to call Karen again, and this time I got through because all the circuits freed up from all the loved ones saying goodbye. Needless to say, and after, as I put it, tears on both sides of the phone line. Michael Hingson  34:59 Karen was finally the first one who told us how two aircraft had been crashed deliberately into the towers of the Pentagon, hijacked aircraft towers at the World Trade Center. That is, one into the Pentagon, and a fourth was still missing over Pennsylvania at that moment. And so that's kind of what happened. The rest of the day we spent getting up toward Midtown Manhattan, and eventually was able to get trains back to New Jersey and so on. And David walked up to where he was staying with his sister, who lived on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. Amplifyou   35:30 What an experience, Sue! Thank you for going through that with us again. And you know, there's there's a lot of things that I want to well, there's something I want to ask you. It's like we often talk about preparation of that day, like all the things you did to prepare for what what you actually were able to do during that day. What mattered on that day from all that preparation? Michael Hingson  35:55 That I knew what to do in an emergency. Also, although I really started learning to verbalize it more later, what I learned was how to control the things that I could and not worry about everything else. We what if everything to death as human beings? Yeah. And we what? Well, what if what if you were in the build in the World Trade Center and it collapsed? Well, okay. What could I have done about that? So it's no sense worrying about it, because I, you know, I didn't have access to something to hold the building up, you know, and so many different things. Well, what if Roselle had panicked? Well, that's why I encouraged her and praised her so she wouldn't. But the bottom line is, I didn't have control over that, other than the fact that I encouraged her and and worked with her so well. Well, what if other people panicked on the stairs? I didn't have control over that, other than doing all I could to try to keep panic from happening. And you know, I and other people did a number of things like what David did to keep people from panicking on the stairs. But the bottom line is, there was no sense worrying about those things because we had no control over them. And when we got home that night, I took Roselle's harness off and I was going to take her outside. She ran off. She wouldn't. She wouldn't go outside right away. She grabbed her favorite tug botobone and started playing tug of war with my retired guide dog Linnie. And they were having a good old time just playing. When I talked to the veterinarians of Guide Dogs for the Blind the next day, I asked them, "What's it going to be like for Roselle going forward? And they asked, "Did Roselle have anything that specifically threatened her? And I said, "No, not really, because nothing hit her, nothing threatened her in any way, shape, or form, and the veterinarian who I spoke with said, "Well, there you are. She wasn't threatened. Dogs don't do what if about everything. They live in the moment. It was over for her. She wanted to play, and that's what she did, which was great anyway. But we what if everything to death, and we need to learn how to stop doing that and worry about just the 5% over which we really have control, and not worry about the rest. That's one of the lessons that I learned. I learned about don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on what you can and leave the rest alone. I learned about what if you know and things like that. Amplifyou   38:18 You and Roselle really understood each other in those moments. So what she realized what her job was, and you you were a leader in keeping everyone else under under control from you know reacting. Did you ever? You seem to have been very positive right from the beginning. Were there other moments that you were not sure that you or guys were going to get out of there. Michael Hingson  38:44 No, and my response is there wasn't time to worry about that for me. I was focused on Roselle. I was focused on listening because if people started to panic, I wanted to deal with it. There was a time on the 37th floor where people just started not talking. They were getting very quiet, and I went, "Oh, they're going to be like David was, and so I said, "Hey, everybody, whether you can see me or not, my name is Mike, and I've got my guide dog Roselle here. I'm blind, but I don't want anybody to worry, because if the power and lights go out in the World Trade Center, we're offering a half-price special to get you out today only. You know, and and that's exactly what I wanted them to do was to laugh, and I got people to laugh, which, which I'm sure helped. But those are the kinds of things that that I could focus on dealing with. But I I didn't worry about what I couldn't control, even though that was sort of an instinctive thing. But the mindset kicked in. All the things that I had learned that led up to September 11th kicked in that day, that allowed me to be able to function and and also help other people, and that's the the important part about it is that they all did kick in the mindset kicked in and it all worked well. Amplifyou   39:54 You've told this story so many times. Has the meaning of the story ever changed for you over 25 years? Michael Hingson  40:00 No, I got to say that it hasn't. Well, in some, yeah, I guess in some senses it has. Maybe some of the reasoning has changed. For example, speaking today, I'm speaking to oftentimes a generation of people who have absolutely no memory of the World Trade Center because they weren't even born yet, or they were too young to remember it. Probably, if you're under 30 years old, you really don't have any memory of it. And if you're under 25, you weren't even born at the time. My job, I believe, and so I've expressed this more lately than I have in the past. But my job is to take people in as I speak to the building with me, and take them down the stairs. Take them through the experiences that I had and went through, and why I went through those experiences, and the lessons to be learned from those. And then bring them out when we get to the bottom and outside. Take them all the way through and out, so that they get the full sense of what I experienced. And I've had so many people tell me we were with you every step you took down the stairs. You tell the story so vividly and so well, and and you just you just had us with you all the way down the stairs, which is exactly what I wanted, because I want them to understand that in reality you can learn to deal with things that come along, there are going to be things that you can't deal with because you don't have the skill or whatever. But we all have a lot of skills that we don't think we do, and one of them is that we can learn to control fear. We can learn that fear is around us, but we don't have to let it overwhelm, blind, or paralyze us. We can learn to use fear in a very positive, constructive way to keep us focused and going down the stairs. Amplifyou   41:45 What made you to decide to keep using your experiences each other's? Michael Hingson  41:49 Well, after September 11th, we and and the media got the story, and then people started calling because we got very visible in the media, and people started calling and saying we'd like to hire you to come and talk to us about what we should learn from September 11th. Learn about teamwork. Learn about what happened that day. Learn the lessons of World Trade Center, and so I decided that I would would do that and teach people what they could remember and and take away from it, and people started calling and saying, "Gee, would you come and let us hire you to tell the lessons of September 11th? And by the beginning of 2002, I had so many of those kinds of requests that Karen and I decided that selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more fun than selling computer hardware and being a computer hardware sales manager, and so that's what I turned to doing full time, and learning to help people understand that the reality is that you are a lot better than you think you are, and you need to learn that. But you really can do in a more strong way what you think you can do than than a typical way. Amplifyou   43:02 That's what I was just going to ask you: is if September 11th changed the direction of your life, and it did, from the career you had into now being a professional speaker. Interesting. Michael Hingson  43:13 Oh, yeah, it's helped a lot. And you know, I I also there are other things that that helped me in terms of dealing with public speaking, I love to tell the story that when I was growing up, before I had access to braille, I had braille in kindergarten in Chicago, but then I didn't have braille in California until the fourth grade, and my parents helped me learn things, and I learned all the spelling words that you know you had every every week you had to learn words, and then on Friday you the teacher would tell you the words, and you had to write them down, and you change papers, and the teacher would write the words on the board. Except in my class, in my class the teacher didn't write the words on the board. The teacher would say, "Mike, you have to spell the words out loud for everybody. So I learned how not to fear crowds and learned that I could spell the words. I know one time I messed up a word, and I don't even remember what the word was, but I heard somebody go, "Uh-uh, and I and I went, "Oh, I must have got it wrong, and I figured it out, and then I spelled it right. But that that only happened one time that I can recall. But clearly, that helped me learn not to be afraid of audiences. And today, I don't even understand why people are afraid to speak publicly. The fact of the matter is, audiences don't come to hear you so they can joke at you, make fun of you, yell at you, and so on. They come because they value what you're you're going to talk with them about, and they want to hear it. They want you to be successful, and they'll help you be successful if you let them, Amplifyou   44:41 I think you were always destined to be a public speaker, but it seems like the September 11th really just the universe conspired to make that happen. Maybe sooner than it would have. Did you ever see yourself before that becoming a public speaker? Michael Hingson  44:57 I never thought of being a public speaker before that. Neither had I ever thought of being an author. I I was used to it because working at Quantum on any given day I could be speaking to anybody from the board of directors of a Wall Street firm to IT people to other management people and so on. So I got used to doing it, and I and I learned all about selling and being articulate in sales, so I kind of learned a lot about public speaking from that. But I never really thought I would just be speaking for a living. But given what happened on September 11th, and that I get the opportunity to talk with people and help them see that in reality, what happened on September 11th is a day of lessons that taught us, or can teach us about resilience, can teach us about dealing with things that we don't expect to happen, and that we can learn how to control fear and so on, rather than letting it overwhelm us. So it it is it's really been pretty good. Amplifyou   45:57 Yeah, and when you hear the phrase "unstoppable mindset, how much of that philosophy do you think was shaped on that day, september 11? Michael Hingson  46:05 Oh, I think a lot of it came from from that day and and beyond. You know, the mindset kicked in on september 11 because of what I knew. But I think also that when it came time to start this podcast, which someone asked me to do as part of being involved with the company. I heard a lot of people talking about resilience and so on, and I just thought of unstoppability, unstoppable mindset, because the reality is we all are more unstoppable than we think we are, and so the podcast is literally an opportunity to converse with anyone who wants to come on, and it is a conversation more, much more than an interview, but it's a conversation about them, their lives, what they've done, and including what did you do that made you realize that you're more unstoppable than you think you are, and maybe you didn't realize that, but you are, and here's let's talk about this, and so those are those are things that I talk about. But I believe that everyone has a story to tell, so I'm always looking for people to come on the podcast and tell their stories and talk with with me about their experiences and so on, and that's how you know we found Bob Ellis, who's going to be with us on the Pentagon. I had actually contacted him about speaking to his organization, and I always mentioned the World Trade Center in initial introductory letters. And he wrote back and said that he would love to help, but he also wrote back and said, you know, I was in the Pentagon on September 11th, and that opened our dialog. And the result was that we finally set up for him to come on Unstoppable Mindset. And when when we did our conversation, I learned, for example, that he walked out the door, and it just he was supposed to be in a meeting that was right near where the plane actually came through the window, and in Bob's case, he had literally just left because the meeting ended up not happening, and he had just walked outside the door when he heard the plane, and he didn't really understand what was happening. But the plane sped up, and then it just crashed right into the tower, into the Pentagon, and he ran from the area, but he was very much involved with with talents that allowed him to help acquire things to help other people survive and so on, and did that for a couple of days or four days. But Bob will tell his story on September 11th. But he was literally just out the door when the plane hit. Amplifyou   48:42 Wow! Well, your guests can look forward to that interview. Will be the next up after this one. And I want to thank you, Michael, for sitting down with me today. I oh, it's always a pleasure, and thanks for allowing me to take over the hosting seat for today on your show, so we can hear more of your story, and thank you for sharing all the lessons you've learned from this experience. Michael Hingson  49:07 Well, well, thank you, and and I hope people will take them to heart. And I would say, if anyone wants to be on the podcast, we would love to have you send me an email at speaker s p e a k e r at michael hingson m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com. If you know of any speaking opportunities that need a keynote speaker to come in, not only to tell an inspiring story, but I want to make it very clear, but to teach also lessons about resilience, business continuity, and other things like that, email me at speaker@michaelhingson.com. Would love to talk with you about that. My website is www.michaelhinkson.com, or you can go to www.michaelhinkson.com/podcast. But we'd love to hear from you in in any way and and get to know you better and you know go from there. Amplifyou   49:57 Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Michael, for today. We'll take care and see you soon. Michael Hingson  50:02 Sounds good. Thank you for being here with me on Unstoppable Mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to michaelhingson.com and download my free ebook, Blinded by Fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset.

Surviving September 11 took more than courage. It took preparation, trust, and the ability to manage fear. I share my experience escaping from the 78th floor of the World Trade Center with my guide dog, Roselle, and the lessons that shaped how I responded that morning. You'll hear how years of learning my surroundings, trusting my training, and understanding my role as a leader helped me stay focused during the evacuation. I also explore blindness, the limits society places on blind people, and the power of teamwork between a guide dog and handler. Most of all, this story is about focusing on what you can control, trusting the relationships you've built, and preparing yourself to act when fear shows up. Highlights: 00:10 – Why Michael is revisiting September 11, 25 years later. 11:45 – How Michael learned that blindness itself isn't the limitation. 32:50 – Why preparation inside the World Trade Center mattered when crisis hit. 36:40 – How staying calm helped Michael lead others toward safety. 44:46 – The lesson Michael heard while running from the collapsing tower. 51:59 – What Roselle taught Michael about fear, trust, and moving forward. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Transcript: Michael Hingson  00:04 Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. I am your host, Mike Hingson, and today we're doing something a little bit different. This is Friday, september 4, 20/26, and this is the first of four episodes commemorating all of the events that happened in and around September 11, 2001. As many of you know, I was in the World Trade Center working for a company. I had opened an office for them on the 78th floor of Tower One of the World Trade Center, and on September 11th, I was in my office because we were going to be doing some special sales training for people, and I was there getting prepared to do all of that when the terrorists attacked the towers, and then later the Pentagon. And as you may know, a fourth aircraft was crashed in Shanksville, Pennsylvania, because people on the aircraft took it over from the terrorists or tried to anyway, so one of the things that we thought would be helpful would be for me to give you again a taste of what I actually went through and what occurred on September 11, 2001, when we started this podcast back in August of 2021, I played a speech that talked about some of what happened to me in the World Trade Center. But today we're going to do a different speech. In April of 2024, I was invited to be a speaker at the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival. Now that festival is a yearly event celebrating and commemorating different events in American history. In 2024, I was invited to come and speak and talk about my experience at the World Trade Center and to help put some of that into context. I thought it would be very relevant for all of you if we played that speech for you, so that you would again get a taste of what occurred with me, why I was able to survive and escape, and a little bit about the lessons that we should learn about not only September 11th, but frankly, from my perspective, being the fact that I have been blind since I was born in 1950, I want you to learn a little bit more about blindness. So we're going to present to you now my speech delivered in April on April 27, 2024, at the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom Festival. I hope that you'll enjoy it. I hope that it will teach you some things, and don't forget that we have other episodes coming up. We have another episode occurring on the eighth of September where I'm going to be interviewed by Michelle Abraham from Amplify You. Amplify You is the company that I work with to get these podcasts out twice a week, and Michelle has her own podcast, and she's going to interview me to talk about lessons we've learned, to talk a little bit about what happened on September 11th. But we won't give anything away for what's going to happen later in this series of episodes. On September 11th, I will be talking with Bob Ellis. Bob was at the Pentagon on September 11th and literally just walked out the door just before the aircraft hit the Pentagon. We're going to talk about that and again, hopefully, put some of things in perspective for you. Then on the 15th of September, I'm going to come back on episode 475 of our podcast, and talk a little bit more in detail about the lessons that I've learned, and talk about things that I hope people will take away and remember from september 11. I know many of you weren't even born when the World Trade Center terrorist attacks occurred, and so this episode 472, especially, I hope will give you a little bit better sense of what occurred, and from my perspective, why things occurred the way they did, and and how we proceed. So I hope you'll enjoy this episode. Hope that you'll enjoy what it brings, and we will definitely be moving forward to talk about some other things later on. Speaker 1  04:24 There are moments in American history that changed the national conscience. Yesterday, we heard about the assassination of President Kennedy. Some of you might be old enough to remember the attack of Pearl Harbor, and for most recently in American history, of course, the terrorist attacks September 11th. Today, you're going to hear a riveting account, a a heroic story of a man whose story I believe will really pull at your heartstrings. And to moderate that panel today, or that interview, to do is conduct our interview. Today is Mary Acher, who's no stranger to this stage, good friend, presidential historian, and a great interviewer. If you'll put your hands together for Miss Mary, Speaker 2  05:11 I just am so honored to met Michael Hinkson and Alamo. You know by what you see that he came down on the 78th floor of the North Tower with his guide dog Brosel, but I have a friend named Doug Weed who always told me, "You don't brag on yourself; you get somebody else to brag on you. And I want to brag on Michael before we start this. Before I ask him to tell this story, Michael was a premature baby, and at the time when he was born, they put the babies in pre in a the premature babies in a incubator sealed with 100% oxygen, and the doctors didn't know that then, but it blinded the children, and Michael was blinded at birth. So Michael was very fortunate that he had parents that refused to allow him to even think about being disabled. They mainstreamed him before mainstreaming was even known, and they taught him to ride a bicycle. They let him drive a car, and later in his life, he actually piloted an airplane. Is that amazing? He loved mathematics. He loved physics. He was taught geometry. He solved math problems in his head. He's got a master's degree in physics and another-not a master's, but a regular in in teaching. So that is why he is such an amazing man. He's never ever let this what enough people call a disability stop him at all? As a matter of fact, he has been such an amazing gift to the unsighted community in in the Braille and things that technology that blind people can utilize to be online and be all kinds of of things that they wouldn't ever have been allowed to do even 50 years ago. So anyway, I'm just so honored to have met you, Michael. It's just been amazing. I'm going to take him to Lambert's tomorrow. He says I have to catch the rolls, or somebody else will catch them and they'll eat them and he won't get it. I promised him I'd catch the rolls. All right, my dear Michael, would you start telling us about that horrendous day? I am Michael Hingson  08:00 going to not do what I said I was gonna do. I'm gonna stand up, and I'm gonna be very interested to go to Lambert's to see what they do with me, since normally they would throw the rolls, as I understand it. And I'm gonna point out that doesn't really work. So now, what are you gonna do? Because if they all fall on the floor and the dog gets them, and the dog gets sick, you guys are in trouble. So I'll be interested to see exactly what happens. No, I'm sure it will work out. Mary, thank you for those those kind words. I'd like to start by defining a couple things to help us in all of this. Mary is absolutely right about what my parents did in their position, the doctors told my parents when it was discovered I was blind at about four months of age that I should be sent to a home because no blind child could ever grow up to amount to anything or contribute to society. If you think that's bad, it was worse in other parts of the world where, when children were born who were blind, were just drowned in a bucket of water. So, in a sense, it wasn't as bad. Not every child who was born premature and put in an incubator did go blind, and it's unfortunate, in a sense, that at the time that I was born. Dr. Arnold Papps at the Wilmer Eye Institute at Johns Hopkins University had discovered that, in fact, oxygen could cause blindness, and even a few minutes a day of a non-oxygen environment would drop the incidence of blindness down to zero. But medical science didn't believe him because they said, "Well, too much oxygen can't be a problem. And what Dr. Arnold Pats essentially really proved is that too much of anything can be a problem. So it is it is an issue. I finally actually some time ago got to meet Dr. Pats. Before he passed, it was it was fascinating to talk with him about that. The condition at the time when I was born was called retroenterial fibroplasia. If you want to know how to spell that, I wrote a book called Thunderdog: The Story of a Blind Man, His Guide Dog, and the Triumph of Trust at Ground Zero, which we plan to have here, but the publisher messed up, so it wasn't. But you can go buy Thunderdog anywhere, and you can learn how to spell retrolateral fibroplegia. It is now called retinopathyoprematurity. I guess that's a little easier to spell. I don't know still why they changed the name, but they did. So fine, I don't care. I am blind. I don't care. Blindness isn't the problem. I've learned from my parents and growing up and being alive now for yep 74 years, blindness isn't the problem. The problem is our perception of blindness, what we believe blind people can and can't do, as opposed to what they truly can and can't do. If you want to really see a story or something about a blind person driving a car, there is a website www.blinddriverchallenge.org. Blinddriverchallenge.org. The president of the National Federation of the Blind in October of 2001 challenged private industry and universities to create a vehicle that a blind person could drive, not an autonomous vehicle, but truly a vehicle that would transmit to the blind person the information necessary for them to drive the vehicle. What you will see at blinddriverchallenge.org is a video of a gentleman named Mark Riccobono. Too many marks. Mark Riccobono driving a vehicle independently without any assistance around the Daytona Speedway, right before the 2011 Rolex 24 race, he will go through an obstacle course. He will pass boxes that are being thrown out of a van to try to block his way. He will pass the van and a number of things like that. The reality is, what is driving? It's all about you having the information necessary for you to control your vehicle, and as far as I'm concerned, given what Mark Riccobono did, and given the reality that the information is available to us, given the way most sighted drivers drive, I'll take me any day, especially where I live in Victorville. My gosh! But the the reality is, blindness isn't the problem. I grew up believing that I went to public school. I went to college. Michael Hingson  12:26 I did get a master's degree in physics. As I love to tell people, I'm as good as Doc Brown from Back to the Future in building reactors and nuclear bombs. The only difference between me and Doc Brown is I won't go steal fissionable material from some source that might come after me later. So you know, I think I was a little smarter than Doc Brown, but the fact is, again, it's not the problem. I was also the program director of the campus radio station for a while, and I worked at the campus radio station KUCI 89.9 on your FM dial for seven years. I did a show playing old radio shows every Sunday night from six to nine. Didn't even know what 60 minutes was. I heard about it, and one day finally somebody from the show or from the the Orange County Jail called and said, "We really got a situation. We want you to know about it here at the jail. People who heard about you, they've heard about 60 minutes, and on Sunday nights we have to divide the jail in half. Half of the people go up to a television room to watch 60 Minutes, and the other half, which is the bigger half, want to hear your show playing old radio shows on Sunday nights. So you know we must be doing something right. That even at the jail, they liked us. I went to work in 1976 for the National Federation of the Blind. It's the largest organization of blind consumers in the country. I was offered a position because I was in in the science world, one of the few at the time in that world. And the president of the federation, Dr. Jernigan, told me in late 74, early 75, we got a situation. There's a guy named Ray Kurzweil. You may have heard of Ray. He's a futurist. He's an inventor. He's invented the singularity. I'm not totally sure I agree with everything that Ray says. You know, Ray once said the only problem with God is we haven't invented it yet. I don't agree with that. And the other part about it is Ray says that we're really going to all become part of the world when chips are created that will allow us to directly interact with computers. Well, we'll see. I don't want to chip in my brain yet. But Ray at that time had developed a piece of technology that would actually look at a printed page. It actually had to build it up line by line, so it wasn't like snapping a picture. But it would learn to recognize all the characters on that page, no matter what their type styles or print styles were, and it would read it out loud, called the Kurzweil Reading Machine for the Blind. Just like with blindness and retro-entral fibroblasia, the government didn't believe he could do it because nobody else had been able to do it, and so they wouldn't help fund it. He came to the federation, and the federation said, "Tell you what we're going to do." Ray, I'm not sure they said it quite that way, but tell you what we're going to do, Ray. We're going to send somebody up there with a bunch of material, and if your machine reads what we bring up, not what you want to read, if it reads what we bring up, then we're going to help you get funding. And Ray, I'm sure again it wasn't quite the way he said it, but he said, "Bring it on. They did. It did, and a relationship began that exists to this day-a machine that literally would read print out loud. And Ray wanted the first application of omnivore optical character recognition to be a machine that would read print out loud for blind people. We created a project where we purchased several machines, and then for 18 months, from 1976, in October through June of 1978, I lived in suitcases or out of suitcases in hotels, traveling around the country where we put machines at places like the New York Public Library, the Iowa Commission for the Blind, the San Francisco Public Library, and some other agencies for the blind around the country. Michael Hingson  15:59 The idea being that we wanted blind people to come and use the machine, read whatever they wanted to read, and then give us information about what needed to go into a final production model of the machine. I wrote training curriculum. I wrote the the technical manuals for teaching people how to use the machine. I taught people to use it. I observed people using it. Sometimes grabbed my old soldering gun and fix things that broke on the machines. These were $50,000, 400 pound machines. They weren't little things like an app on an iPhone today, right? So anyway, we finally wrote the final recommendations, and then Ray said, "I want to hire you to come and do the same sort of thing within the company. So I went to work for Ray, moved to Cambridge, Massachusetts. Actually, I learned I moved to Winthrop, Massachusetts, learned how to go from Winthrop to Cambridge every day, and we began a relationship. And I worked at Kurzweil Computer Products, in and that started in again October of 1978. In May of 1978, I was called into the office of the VP of Marketing, and Andrew Parson said, "We're laying you off. What? We're laying you off. Why? Oh, it's not that you're doing a bad job or anything, but unfortunately, like a lot of engineering startup companies, we've hired too many people who aren't revenue producers, and we have to have more revenue producers. And so, as important as your job is, it's not as important as making money for the company. So we have to lay you off. Then he paused and he said, "Unless you'll go into sales. Now, I'm a science guy. However, I thought about it for a micro nanosecond, and I said, "Sure, I'll go into sales. As I love to tell people, I decided I would lower my standards and go from science to sales, and did. I said I don't know anything about sales. He said we'll send you to a Dale Carnegie sales course and all that. Well, I started selling, but not the reading machine for the blind. Instead, I sold a new product they had called the Kurzweil Data Entry Machine, and unlike the reading machine for the blind that sold for $50,000, if you want one, we might be able to find one of the old machines for you for 49 995. Instead, I sold a new product called the Kurzweil Data Entry Machine, which was only $125,000. I guess they had confidence in my ability, and I was very grateful for it. The real reason that I didn't want to refuse the sales position is I knew that at that time, and it's still somewhat today, the unemployment rate among employable blind people is close to 70. That is seven 0% It's not because we can't do the work; it's because people think we won't be able to do the work and don't give us the opportunity. So the bottom line is, I lowered my standards and went from science to sales, and did that for a while. And then in 1981, while Xerox was considering and actually working toward buying the product, I was asked by Ray and the VP of Sales to move back to California, where I was from, to help integrate Kurzweil into the Xerox West Coast environment, including their research center called Palo Alto Area Research Center Park, and I did. And my thanks for that was that after the the whole sale was consummated and Xerox completely took over. I was the last salesperson in June of 1984 to receive a FedEx letter saying thank you for your service, but we don't want you anymore. Goodbye, because all Xerox wanted was the technology. They didn't want the people. Now I was confronted with the situation. How am I going to find a job? What am I going to do? 70% unemployment. and I went out and I wrote lots of cover letters, sent out lots of resumes, and I even got a headhunter who called me and said, "Love your resume. We're going to have you interview with this company up in San Jose, California. We'll send you a ticket. They sent me the ticket the night before the flight. The guy called. Back and he says, "You know, I was just looking at your resume again. I see you do a lot of things with blind people. Michael Hingson  20:04 Is there somebody in your family who's blind? You notice that? And I said, "Yeah, I'm blind. You're blind? Well, I'm going to have to call them. They're not going to want to talk to you. I said, "Nothing has changed. My resume is still the same, but you're blind. It's all changed. No, it hasn't. There were no laws to stand on. The reservation was canceled, and I didn't do the interview. Their loss. If Speaker 3  20:30 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset Community. Michael Hingson  21:02 Eventually, not finding a job, I started my own company selling computer-aided design systems to architects. A blind guy selling CAD systems? Why the heck not? I didn't need to work the machine. What I needed to know was how to work the machine, so I could describe it to architects, and I could sit them down in front of a machine and talk with them and talk them through it. We also hired people to demo CAD systems, and I did that for four years. And then I went back into the workforce. And when I went back into the workforce, my wife and I were talking one day, and she said, "You know, I got this great job I just discovered in the newspaper. It's selling high-end, new, revolutionary, hot, pluggable disc technology. It's perfect for you. You should apply. And I said to my wife Karen, who I had married in 1982. By the way, Karen also had a disability. She was in a wheelchair her whole life. She reads. I push. Worked out well. I said, so do I say in my cover letter I'm blind or not? Because typically, if you say you're blind, same thing will happen with the headhunter. You won't even get a call back if you don't say you're blind. You might get a callback, but then they're going to have all their defenses go up when you show up for the interview. And she said, "You're an idiot. Wives can do that, gentlemen, and it's fine. You're an idiot. Why? What's the most important thing you always said to every salesperson you ever hired, well, I wasn't quite sure which things she was thinking of. I had several things that I always said to salespeople I hired. She said, "You always told every salesperson you ever hired turn here's the operative word perceived liabilities into assets. You ever watch those little cartoons in the newspapers and all that, where the light bulb goes on over your head. Well, that's what happened, and I went and I wrote a cover letter to send with this resume to this company. And here are the last two paragraphs of the letter. The most important thing you need to know about me is that I am blind. As a blind person, I have had to sell all my life just to be able to function and survive. I've had to sell to take my guide dog on airplanes. I didn't tell them that we had to sue one airline because they violated their own policy because they wouldn't let me go on an airplane with my guide dog. I've had to sell to convince people to let me buy a house, move into apartments, sometimes take my guide dog into grocery stores, and do anything else because I was blind, I've always had to sell. So, second paragraph: When you're hiring someone for this job, do you want to hire somebody who comes in and works for eight or 10 hours a day, and then just goes home because the job is over, or do you want to truly hire somebody who understands sales for the science and art that it is, and who sells 24 hours a day as a way of life. Sent off the letter. Waited for two weeks, wondering if I'd get a call or an email. Well, no, not an email, not back then. But in late June 19 or May 1989, I got a call. This is Doug Cooper, head of marketing for Articon. We love your letter. Would you come for an interview? And I said sure. Next day we were down there. I was hired and started on july 2, 1989. Love to start on the second of July, or actually the third of July, because then I got the next day off. It was great. So I went to work for them, and we moved from where we were living in Mission Viejo down to Vista, California. The company was in Carlsbad. I began selling to the East Coast, selling our technologies and other technologies, Sun Microsystems products, and so on. And then in 1996, the owner of the company asked me to move to New York for them because we were selling to Wall Street. Michael Hingson  24:37 Wall Street was always good at getting and demanding and getting what they demanded, and they always said, "If you are a manufacturer and you're selling products to us, we want a representative, not an agent, but we want the company in Wall Street Arena to be able to to hold responsible and deal with. So we moved to New York. And I went to work on the 23rd floor of Tower Two of the World Trade Center, and was there for about a year, and then was recruited away by another company, and it wasn't hard because Articon did not figure out how to support a branch operation. So I was recruited away, and then in 1999 I was recruited away by Quantum Corporation, and now we're getting to what Mary asked about. But I needed to give you the background. Hope it was okay. So in 1999, I was hired to open an office for Quantum Corporation on well in New York City. Quantum was a company that made products called tape libraries. They were big boxes that consisted of tape drives and lots of tape cartridges, and you would attach them to computer networks, and then you would use software like one called Veritas, which is still used today. And what you would do is you would back up all of your data over the network into these tape libraries, onto tape cartridges, and then you would take the tape cartridges out and store them off-site. Now I gotta stop and be spiteful because in New Jersey they love to say that they stored them in a town called Mountainside Under a Mountain. You ever see a mountain in northern New Jersey? I came from California where we had mountains that were eight, 910, 1000 feet tall. They didn't even have decent hills, but they still called it a mountain. That was fine, whatever. They still were able to store the tapes in safe places. But the point is that all the data was backed up off-site, which is what they needed to do. We opened the actual office on august 1, 2000. I hired a staff, and we had a staff that came in and and sold, and we also worked with resellers. And in August of 2001, our main distributor Ingram Micro said, "You know, we got a lot of resellers who are selling your products, but they don't really know how to do it. Can we hold some seminars to teach our your reseller partners, our customers, the resellers, how to sell your product? I said, "You bet. We worked it out with the folks at Quantum. David Frank, who was in charge of pricing and distribution, said he wanted to come back to be a part of the seminars, and we set up doing the seminars. The idea was that we would teach them. I would be their main point of contact since I worked and lived there. David would be the person that I or they would contact without with any pricing issues, but I would be the technical point of contact contact. Master's degree in physics helps, and so we set up the seminars. And wouldn't you know it, we set them up to be held on september 11, 2001. The evening before, or the morning of September 11th, about 12:30, Roselle, my guide dog at the time, woke me up. She was very nervous and fidgety. I knew what it was like when she was fidgety. It was usually because it was a thunderstorm. She didn't like thunder, and we went down to my office. And of course, a thunderstorm did happen, and the storm literally came right over our house. I've never been in an environment where bombs went off around me, but I got to say that in this case, the thunder claps were, as I said, literally right over us, and it had to be like what a bomb sounds like going off. Anyway, it went on till about two, and then we went back up and got a couple more hours of sleep, three more hours of sleep. I got up. We went in and got to the office at about 7:40 in the morning on September 11th. As I came to the door, somebody came up with a cart. It turns out it was a guy from the Port Authority cafeteria. Michael Hingson  28:33 We were going to be providing breakfast and snacks for the first and second seminarians. We had seminars going all day, so we went in. I showed him where I wanted to set up everything in the conference room. I went in, got my laptop computer out of my backpack briefcase. I got my PowerPoint projector, and I went into the conference room and set everything up because I was going to be doing a PowerPoint show that day to give people all the information they needed about the ATLP 3000, the ATLP 1000, and so on. Yes, blind people can do PowerPoint, folks. It's not magic. You sighted bigots. So I had a script, and my wife and I had created the script, and I'd used it many times. The script was in Braille. I knew what was on every slide. We put a couple of things in addition on the script. We put all the wording from the slides on the script, and we also put on the script descriptions of the pictures, as well as where the picture would show up on the screen. So I would, for example, when we showed this to other customers around the city, I'd blow their minds because I would be doing the presentation. My sales guys loved it when I went out and did PowerPoint presentations because I could just point over my shoulder. On the left side of your screen, you'll see the ATLP 3000 with 16 cartridge, 16 drives, 326. Cartridges, and you see the label that says Prism Technology. We could hook five of them together. On the right side of your screen, you'll see the ATLP 1000, which was a single unit with 30 cartridges and one tape drive. And people would come up to me afterwards, and they say, "You know, we're ticked at you. I go, "Why? Well, first of all, your presentation was not boring, which usually they are. But second of all, you never turned and looked at the screen. You kept looking at us, even though you were pointing right to where everything was with your laser pointer. We didn't dare fall asleep. We forgot you were blind. And my response was, "You don't get it. My dog was down here taking notes. If you'd fallen asleep, we would have got you anyway. But that was what it was about. My responsibility was to be the leader of that office, and I had to do what anyone else would do. One of the main things that I did was spend hours, days walking around the World Trade Center, learning what the kiosks were in the shopping mall on the first floor, learning where different offices were, consulting with the Port Authority police and the fire prevention people learning what to do in case of an emergency because sometimes I might be in the office all by my little self. There would be nobody else around. I didn't want my staff in the office. I wanted them out selling and working and supporting customers. Not being in the office, of course, they did usually come in at least once a week. And and so I learned never watched The Sopranos, but I got to tell you, I learned more about the Sopranos from all the Italian Americans on my staff who talked about the Sopranos constantly. Bada bing, bada boom, and I learned a whole lot about Tony Soprano without ever watching the show. But the point is that I needed to know all that stuff. I needed to know where the restaurants were. Customers come into the office. Oh, you want to go out to lunch? What kind of food do you want? There's a great deli downstairs called Fine and Shapiro. Let me take you there. How would it have looked if I didn't know how to do that, and I had to say to someone, "You're going to have to let me take your arm and lead me there because I don't know how to get there, and two hours later we're supposed to be negotiating multi-million dollar contracts? No, I needed to know it. I didn't have the luxury, and I don't regard it as a luxury. I regard it as a disability of reading signs. I needed to know all of that stuff. What I didn't realize is that was creating a mindset in me, which I'll talk about in a moment. Michael Hingson  32:15 Anyway, got all the laptop projectors and everything set up. The only thing I knew I didn't know how to do extremely well is to get it exactly aimed right, but about 8o'clock, David Frank came in and I said, "Say, David, this is all set up, but let's aim the projector just exactly where you want it on the screen. And we did have to turn it just a little bit, but not too much. But anyway, at 845, I was in my office and David was with me. We were creating a final list of all the people who were going to be attending the seminars, because the Port Authority police, the security people, needed to know who was coming. There were two ways you could get into the building: either we faxed on letterhead a list of people who were coming on any given day, and then the people coming in would show their photo IDs, and it would be verified against the list. And if they were allowed in, then they would be given a badge that they would put over their neck, and they would carry that, and they could scan barcode and go into the appropriate elevator to come onto our floor, or they'd have to call us every time somebody came in. And I didn't want a lot of phone calls coming in, so we were faxing the list. I was reaching for Letterhead to fax to to print the list on Letterhead when suddenly I heard and felt kind of a muffled thump and a vibration. And then literally, if you any blind people in the room, well, I'll do it anyway. I'm holding up my hand, and what happened was that literally, as I'm now tipping my hand toward you, the building began to tip. We probably moved about 20 feet. The building kept tipping and tipping. David and I said together, "What's going on? I don't know. What's going on? What do you think? Was it an explosion? I said. David said, "Didn't sound like it. Is it an earthquake? David was from New York, and now he's living in California. He didn't know about earthquakes. I said, "No, the building wasn't shaking around. It was going in one direction. And finally, and I went over and I stood in the doorway between my office and the the outside lobby of our our offices, and I stood there. Roselle was asleep under my desk. David was just on the other side of my desk, holding it near our windows, looking out over Manhattan, the south side of Manhattan. And finally, David and I both said goodbye to each other because we thought we had moved so far that the building was going to take a 78 floor plunge to the street. And then the building slowed down, and it stopped, and it moved back. As soon as it got vertical, I started walking back into the office. I met Roselle coming around from under my desk. I took her leash. I said "heel, which meant to come around behind me to sit and lie down, which is what I would normally have Alamo do, but he's comfortable, so we'll just leave him there. Roselle sat down, and about that time. The building dropped straight down about six feet. Why did it drop down? Because tall buildings like that literally are springs. They're made to flex in windstorms and other things like that. An Empire, an airplane hit the Empire State Building in the 1940s because it got lost in a fog bank. Tall buildings are flexible. They have expansion joints, and when the building was hit, the expansion joints took up all of the the things that were going on. And then when the building got straight again, the expansion joints dropped back down to their normal configuration. I knew that because I had talked to people about stuff like that. I'd forgotten it until later, but I knew it. What I hadn't realized is that what was happening when I was learning so much stuff was that a mindset was being developed in me that said, "You know what to do in an emergency. And as soon as the building dropped, David turned and looked out the window and started shouting, "Oh my God, Mike! There's fire and smoke over us! There were millions of pieces of burning paper falling outside the windows. Michael Hingson  35:59 We got to get out of here right now! Slow down, David. No, we got to get out of here. The building's on fire. I could hear things rushing and brushing outside our windows, and now I knew what they were. David told me millions of pieces of burning paper, right? And I didn't smell any smoke. Roselle wasn't doing anything to indicate any concern, and David kept saying, "We got to get out of here. The building's on fire. And I kept saying, "Slow down. Our guests began to scream. We had like five or six who were in our conference room. Early arrivals. They started coming out, but then they heard me say, "Slow down, stop, David. Just wait. And they waited to see what was going to happen. And finally, David used the big line: "You don't understand. You can't see Speaker 4  36:37 it. The Michael Hingson  36:38 problem wasn't what I wasn't seeing, the problem was what David wasn't seeing-a dog sitting next to me, wagging her tail, yawning, going, "Who the heck woke me up? I was comfy, not giving any indication of fear. And I eventually got David to focus, and I said, "David, get our guests to the stairs. Don't let them take the elevators, because I knew if there's fire, especially because if there's fire, the elevators could become fire traps. The fire could get into the elevator shafts, which it did, and anybody in the cars would be burned. David left with our guests, got them to the stairs. Meanwhile, I called Karen and told her that there had been an explosion or something. We had no clue. There was no way to know. I love it. Reporters, even today, and other people say, "Well, of course you didn't know you couldn't see it. Excuse me, you numbskulls. The last time I checked, Superman and X-ray vision were fiction, and the airplane hit 18 floors above us on the other side of the building. No one knew. All the way down the stairs, we didn't know because no one saw it. No one knew. Anyway, I called and told Karen she wanted to know more. I said, "I don't know anything else. I've got to go because we're not staying here. We knew instantly that we had to leave, but we got our guests out. Then David came back. We swept the offices one last time. Went to the stairs and we started down. If I knew it was the last time I was going to be in the building, I would have taken a couple of things that I didn't take. Like I had a really neat talking scientific calculator that I couldn't replace. And if I had known that I wasn't coming back, I would have taken it. It would have been a little heavier, but I would have taken it anyway. We started down the stairs. There were other people, of course, on the stairs. We got down about four floors, and I was smelling an odor. I couldn't quite figure it out, and suddenly I realized I'm smelling the fumes from burning jet fuel. I traveled 100,000 miles a year for my company. I knew what the odor of jet fuel was like. I knew the kerosene smell, but it took a while to associate it with the World Trade Center because no one would have ever thought you would have smelled it there. When I realized what it was, I observed to the other people around me on the stairs, "I'm smelling the fumes from burning jet fuel. And they said, "Yeah, you're right. That's what it is. We must have been hit by an airplane. You understand? Nobody knew. We must have been hit because of what we're smelling, so we all accepted that that was what was going on, but we had no clue. We continued down the stairs, about 10 floors down. At one point, a woman stopped right behind me, and she said, "I can't go on. I can't breathe. We're not going to make it out. And I stopped and turned around and said, "Sure, we are. Come on, this is my guide dog Roselle. He's guiding me, and and she'll encourage you. Roselle gave her kisses, and this lady gave Roselle a few pets, and so on. And other people surrounded her, and we had a group hug, and the lady was able to keep going. A few burn victims passed us on the stairs as we went down. At about the 50th floor, David, who had gotten a little quiet. Suddenly said, "Mike, we're going to die. We're not going to make it out of here. Now you heard that I have a teaching credential. What you don't know, and teachers won't generally acknowledge it, but I'm going to tell you anyway. There's a secret class we take called Voice 101: How to Yell at Students. Didn't know that, did you? And anyway, as soon as David. Said Mike, "We're going to die. We're not going to make it out of here. I just said as sharply and with a snap into my voice that I could, "Stop it, David! If Rosella and I can go down these stairs, so can you. And David told me later that that brought him out of his funk. Michael Hingson  40:12 What he then said is, "I got to keep my mind off this. I want to walk a floor below you and shout up to you what I see on the stairs. Is that okay? And I said, sure. Did I really need him to do that? No. Did it matter? No, but it did to David. However, what I came to realize over time was, David doing that was one of the most important things that I experienced on that day. So I'm going down the stairs. I get to floor 49. David, I'm on the 48th floor. All's clear here, Mike. Going on down. I get to 48 floor, 47. We keep going down. Finally, I get to the 45th floor, David. I'm on the 44th floor. This is where the Port Authority cafeteria is. Not stopping. So David was obviously doing better, and he kept going down. Why do I say what I did about David and doing that? Because David became a focal point for anyone within the sound of his voice who could hear him say, "43rd floor, all's clear, everything is good. He had to have helped 1000s of people stay focused and not panic going down the stairs, and I think that was so cool that he did that all the way down 42nd floor, all good. We kept going down the stairs. We met firefighters on the 30th floor. They wanted to escort me down, and I finally convinced them that I was capable of going down without them. And I did it by playing the sight card. I said, "Look, my friend David is here. He can see we're good, and the firefighters let us go. I didn't want them to escort me. First of all, they don't know how to work with a blind guy and do sighted guide. But second of all, I didn't want to break up their team because I knew that each of those people were carrying the equipment that they had to use to fight the fire. You couldn't store it somewhere. Where would you store it? Oh, the 34th floor. And what happens if a fire broke out on the 33rd floor, you couldn't get to it. You had to carry the equipment, so we kept going down the stairs. Finally, got to the first floor. David got there, and I was at floor two. And he said, "Hey, there are water sprinklers running. You're going to have to run through a waterfall or a down torrent of water to get out of the stairwell. Why was there all that water? Because it wanted to keep fire either in or out of the stairs, if fire was around. David ran through. Then I got to the bottom. Roselle stood there, and I picked up her harness and said, "Rosel, forward, hop up, which is a command to speed up. We went through this torrential downpour. It was a waterfall, and we came out the other side, soaking. David was there, and there were voices. Hey, don't go outside! No, no, don't go that way. Go this way. A PA system, a guy on a bullhorn. No, no, no! Don't go outside. Don't go to the outside. Go this way. What we didn't know is, if they had let people go out, they might have been right below where people were jumping. And so that was one of the reasons they didn't want anyone out. They wanted people to go through the complex and get out at the far side, as far away from where everything was occurring that they could. This guy comes up to us and he goes, "I'm with the FBI. I'll get you where you need to go. And of course, I'm sitting there with my warped sense of humor, going, "I'm sorry, I only talked to McGarrett, and I didn't do it. I'm innocent. I just thought that I didn't say any of it out loud. Anyway, he got us through out to the outside of Tower One. We passed now the empty Ben and Jerry's ice cream kiosk that was there. Darn didn't get a chance for a scoop. Kept going. Finally, went up an escalator and got outside into the sunshine outside of Tower. Well, of the whole complex, as far away from the towers as we could be, we got outside. Michael Hingson  43:44 We were told to leave the area, but David looked around and he said, "Mike, I see fire in Tower Two. And I said, "What are you talking about? There's fire in Tower Two, really? What's that all about? We didn't feel a thing going down. We were in our own little cocoon, our own little cave. We had no clue. Anyway, we were told to leave, so we went to Broadway. We walked across the plaza to Broadway, turn left, going now north on Broadway. There was a building on my left. Broadway was on my right. We crossed several streets, crossed Fulton Street, finally got to Vetsy Street. David said, "I want to stop because I can see the fire in Tower Two really clearly from here, I want to take some pictures, and I said, "Great, I'll try to call my wife. I got out my phone. David was taking pictures, which I have today. I tried to call Karen. I couldn't get through. Later, of course, we learned that people were saying goodbye to loved ones, and that was why the circuits were busy. I had just put my phone away, and a police officer, and while David was putting his camera away, and a police officer yelled out of here! It's coming down now. We heard this rumble that became this deafening roar. I describe it as kind of a combination of a freight train and a waterfall. You could hear glass breaking and tinkling, and metal crashing down, and then this white noise sound as Tower Two, 100 yards away from. Pancake down. Everyone turned and ran. David ran. He was gone. I literally lifted Roselle by the harness, turned her 180 degrees, and started running back the way we came. And the first thing I remember saying in my mind was, "God, I cannot believe that you got us out of a building just to have it fall on us. And as soon as I thought that, I heard in my head as clearly as you hear me now, a voice that said, "Don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running with Roselle, and the rest will take care of itself. Who is God? Absolutely no question. Don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running with Roselle, and the rest will take care of itself. And so I also had this incredible sense of peace and calm that came over me. That said, you're okay if you work together. We kept running. We got back to Fulton Street, turned right on Fulton Street, and ran about 25 yards. And suddenly we caught up to David, who had apparently gone the same way. And David suddenly realized that he had left us behind and he was going to come back, but we caught up to him first, and he apologized. I said, "David, don't worry about it. Let's just keep going. The building's coming down, you know. And we both just started to run with Roselle, and suddenly we were engulfed in all the dirt and debris and the dust cloud from Tower Two. It was so thick that David said he couldn't see his hand six inches in front of his face, and all I can tell you is that every breath I took, I felt dirt and debris and junk going down my throat into my stomach, and we knew we had to get out of that. So I started telling Roselle, "Go right, right. There was a building on our right side, and I wanted her to find the nearest opening if she could even hear me, see my hand signals, or whatever. And I was also listening for openings. Yes, I can hear when I pass an opening, and I and I can tell it's there and deal with it accordingly. Like during a time when you're running away from a collapsing building, run into it. Suddenly, I heard an opening on the right, and Roselle must have known what I wanted. She must have been able to see my hand signals or something because she turned right, she took one step, she stopped, and she would not move. Come on, Roselle, keep going. She wouldn't move. Come on, Roselle. Nope, wouldn't do it. And I realized, focus on running with Roselle, and the rest will take care of itself. So I stuck out a foot. Michael Hingson  47:13 I trailed a hand along a wall, and realized that we were at the top of a flight of stairs. Roselle had done exactly what she was supposed to do, and I knew what I was supposed to do if I wanted to get her to move. But before I did that, I gave her a big hug, good girl, and then I said, "Roselle, forward! That's the command. And we went down the stairs into an arcade area that was the entrance to the Fulton Street subway station. There were a few other people down there. Then a guy came up from the subway system and saw about eight or nine of us there. He introduced himself as Lou, an employee of the subway system, and he took us down to an employee locker room where we could sit down and and kind of hack and cough and get the dust out of our lungs. There was a water fountain and there were fans. We were there about 10 minutes. Then a police officer came, and he said, "You got to get out of here right now. The air's clear up above. You can't stay here. And so we followed him. Of course, he probably had already been told that Tower One was going to collapse. the The officials knew that each building was going to collapse probably about a half hour before it actually did. At least that was their presumption, and that's what I've been told. Anyway, we followed him back up the stairs, through the arcade, up the last two flights of stairs. We got outside. David looked around and he goes, "Oh my God, Mike, there's no Tower Two anymore. And I said, "What do you see? And he said, "All I see are pillars of smoke, hundreds of feet tall. We stood there for a moment, and then we just turned, and we kept walking. Now west on Fulton Street, we walked about 10 minutes, and we were in this little plaza area when we heard that freight train waterfall sound again, and we knew it must be our tower collapsing. We saw a little retaining wall David did, and we got behind it and ducked down, and we waited until everything stopped, and then we stood back up. And David looked around and he said, "Oh my God, Mike, there's no World Trade Center anymore. And I said, "What do you see? And he said, "I just see fingers of fire and flame, hundreds of feet tall. We see, I see pillars of smoke. It's gone. Are you sure? Yeah, it's gone. It's not there. We stood there a moment, then I tried to call my wife Karen again. That was kind of my first thought. I need to tell her we're okay. This time I did get through because clearly the circuits were were free. And after some tears on both sides of the phone, she is the one who told us how two aircraft had deliberately been hijacked and crashed into the towers, one into the Pentagon, and a fourth at that time was still missing over Pennsylvania. Who would have thought? We spent the rest of that day getting up toward Midtown Manhattan, and eventually I got to Penn Station, learned that the trains were running, and went back. Out to New Jersey, David wanted to go back up to be with his sister, who he who he was staying with. She lived on the Upper East Side, so I got on trains and I went back over toward New Jersey. I called Karen and told her what was going on, and a friend of ours, a friend that Karen had known since high school out in California, Tom Painter, was also living in New Jersey, he had come down to be with her, not even knowing at the time whether I was in the World Trade Center or working from home that day or whatever. But he drove her to the station in our accessible van, and as I came off the train, I heard the van show up. I went downstairs, climbed and went up the ramp into the van, and got to hug Karen about 7o'clock that night, for the first time since leaving home, we got home. Tom drove us home. We all went inside. I was going to take Roselle outside because she hadn't been out since like five that morning. Michael Hingson  50:53 Well, I take that back about six that morning, and I took her harness off. But before I could do anything else, she was off like a shot. She went to her toy box, found her favorite tug bone, and started playing tug of war with my retired guide dog Linny. Why? Because it was over for her. And I talked to the guide dog people later, and I said, "Will any of this affect her? And they said, "Was she threatened? Did anything hit her or injure her in any way, and I said no. They said then no. It was over for her because dogs don't do what if. It was over. It was done. She was fine. Lesson to be learned. Lesson you will learn more about if you buy our new book, Live Like a Guide Dog: True Stories from a Blind Man and His Guide his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity, and walking in faith. That that book is available for pre-order, and I've been signing bookmarks all day. I still even have a few with me. But the point is, you can pre-order it, and and it's about something that I learned later. I thought about during the pandemic. I've talked a lot about escaping and not being afraid because I developed a mindset that said you know what to do, but what I've not done is to teach others how they can learn to recognize that fear is not something that needs to blind or overwhelm you. You can use fear as a very powerful tool to guide you and steer you in the right direction if you know how to control it, and live like a guide dog is all about that. So I hope that you'll all get that when it comes out in August. But again, you can pre-order it now if you go to michaelhinkston.com. There's a link there where you can go to a web page to get information and to go to a link where you can pre-order it. And like I said, I have some bookmarked with a QR code on it, and and I'm and I yes I am plugging the book, but I'm also saying, look, folks, the bottom line is we operate in so many ways with misconceptions about things. I've talked about blindness. Anybody could have been in the World Trade Center, and and a lot of people were. The reality is, though, if you learn what to do and how to prepare for situations in general, when it becomes something specific, you'll know what to do. People have asked a number of times, "Well, wasn't your guide dog trained to operate in an emergency like the World Trade Center? How are we going to do that? No, the dog isn't trained to do that. The guide dog's job is not to lead. Guide dogs do not lead blind people. Guide dogs' jobs are to make sure that we walk safe. It's my job to know where to go and how to get there to give the dog direction. The dog depends and relies on me to give it direction. The dog's job, as I said, is to make sure we walk safely. It's a team effort. We each have a job to do, and we develop a trusting relationship when we learn to trust each other and respect the job the other member of the team is doing, which is what it's all about. Which is what happens on any team, trust is all around us. Trust is under attack in so many ways from our politicians, and in so many ways. But the reality is, trust is all around us. I think we all trust that the roof isn't going to fall in on the church. I think that we trust that the PA system is going to continue to work, and so on. Trust is all around us. The difference between dogs and people is that dogs, while they do love unconditionally, do not trust unconditionally. But dogs are open to trust unless some incredibly traumatic thing has happened to them where they lose that ability. But dogs are open to trust, dogs want humans to give them direction to establish rules, and all too often with our pets and so on, we don't do that. We don't really develop the relationship that we should and can with them. Michael Hingson  54:54 If we would, we would have so much stronger bond and relationships with them. It would be. Amazing for for all of us, but the bottom line is that's the relationship that I get with each guide dog. That's the relationship I have with Alamo. He trusts that I am going to feed him before too awfully long. He trusts that you guys are going to buy books, so he'll have kibbles for me to feed him. Just saying, but but seriously, the the trust has to be earned with a dog or with people or whatever, and if you find that you you discover you can't trust someone, don't wish them ill will, forgive them and move on. So you don't trust them, but you know what you have, and you go off and make new friends and learn other trusting relationships that you can develop. Focus on running with Roselle; the rest will take care of itself. The reality is, we worry so much about so many things. We are always doing what if we create most of the fears that we face in our lives, and we Don't need to do that. If we would focus on just the things that we have some control over and leave the rest alone, well, we might want to be aware of them, but we don't have to worry about them. We don't have control over them. Trust and deal with the things that you have to deal with, and let the rest take care of itself. And that was what I learned on September 11th, listening to the voice of God, absolutely, and that is something that I pass on to all of you, and I think that's the most important thing that I can leave you with. Hi again, everyone. This is Mike Hingson. I hope that you found that speech to be helpful and relevant and interesting. I hope that you learn some things from it. From a personal standpoint, I hope that you learn that blindness isn't really the big problem that I face. The challenge that I face really comes from the fact that people who have eyesight tend to believe that blind people are not capable of doing much because they can't see. Wrong thing to believe. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on that because we did it during the speech, but I just wanted to thank you for being here today, for listening and watching this episode. I hope that you will also tune in for our episode on Tuesday, where I'm in conversation with Michelle Abraham on next Friday, the 11th of September, that you will tune in to hear the conversation with Bob Ellis, and then episode 475, which will occur on the 15th of September, where we will talk about lessons to be learned and and give you some things to hopefully take away that maybe you haven't thought about. Thanks very much for being here with us. I really very much appreciate all of your support. If any of you have any questions or want to reach out to me, you are welcome to do so. Please feel free to email me at speaker@michaelhinkson.com. That's s p e a k e r at m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com speaker@michaelhingson.com hope to hear from you and as you gather I do speak I continue to speak publicly I've been a keynote speaker since September 11 if anybody knows of anyone that needs a keynote speaker or you can use us in events that you have please reach out to me at speaker@michaelhingson.com let's talk about it. Let's see how we can help. I'm always looking for ways to inspire, but also to teach and help. And I'd like to be part of your world in that regard. Thanks again for being here. Thanks for listening, and come back next time for another episode of Unstoppable Mindset.

Two young princes vanished inside the Tower of London, and history has never agreed on what happened next. In 1483, Edward V and his younger brother Richard, Duke of York, disappeared from public view after their uncle seized the throne as King Richard III. Were they murdered? If so, who was responsible? For centuries, suspicion has fallen on Richard III, but was the case really that simple? In this video, I explore: • the disappearance of the Princes in the Tower • Richard III and the evidence against him • the role of Buckingham, Henry VII, and Margaret Beaufort • medieval politics and rival claimants • Thomas More and the James Tyrell confession story • the mystery of Perkin Warbeck and survival theories • the bones discovered in the Tower of London • what contemporary sources actually tell us Was this a royal murder, a political conspiracy, or one of history's greatest misunderstandings? Let me know your theory in the comments. #PrincesInTheTower #RichardIII #WarsOfTheRoses

What does it take to keep your voice—and your purpose—strong through every season of life? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I sit down with my friend Bill Ratner, one of Hollywood's most recognized voice actors, best known as Flint from GI Joe. Bill's voice has carried him through radio, animation, and narration, but what stands out most is how he's used that same voice to serve others through storytelling, teaching, and grief counseling. Together, we explore the heart behind his work—from bringing animated heroes to life to standing on The Moth stage and helping people find healing through poetry. Bill shares lessons from his own journey, including losing both parents early, finding family in unexpected places, and discovering how creative expression can rebuild what life breaks down. We also reflect on 9/11, preparedness, and the quiet confidence that comes from trusting your training—whether you're a first responder, a performer, or just navigating the unknown. This conversation isn't just about performance; it's about presence. It's about using your story, your craft, and your compassion to keep moving forward—unstoppable, one voice at a time. Highlights: 00:31 – Hear the Flint voice and what it takes to bring animated characters to life. 06:57 – Learn why an uneven college path still led to a lifelong acting career. 11:50 – Understand how GI Joe became a team and a toy phenomenon that shaped culture. 15:58 – See how comics and cartoons boosted classroom literacy when used well. 17:06 – Pick up simple ways parents can spark reading through shared stories. 19:29 – Discover how early, honest conversations about death can model resilience. 24:09 – Learn to critique ads and media like a pro to sharpen your own performance. 36:19 – Follow the pivot from radio to voiceover and why specialization pays. 47:48 – Hear practical editing approaches and accessible tools that keep shows tight. 49:38 – Learn how The Moth builds storytelling chops through timed, judged practice. 55:21 – See how poetry—and poetry therapy—support grief work with students. 59:39 – Take notes on memoir writing, emotional management, and one-person shows. About the Guest: Bill Ratner is one of America's best known voice actors and author of poetry collections Lamenting While Doing Laps in the Lake (Slow Lightning Lit 2024,) Fear of Fish (Alien Buddha Press 2021,) To Decorate a Casket (Finishing Line Press 2021,) and the non-fiction book Parenting For The Digital Age: The Truth Behind Media's Effect On Children and What To Do About It (Familius Books 2014.) He is a 9-time winner of the Moth StorySLAM, 2-time winner of Best of The Hollywood Fringe Extension Award for Solo Performance, Best of the Net Poetry Nominee 2023 (Lascaux Review,) and New Millennium "America One Year From Now" Writing Award Finalist. His writing appears in Best Small Fictions 2021 (Sonder Press,) Missouri Review (audio,) Baltimore Review, Chiron Review, Feminine Collective, and other journals. He is the voice of "Flint" in the TV cartoon G.I. Joe, "Donnell Udina" in the computer game Mass Effect, the voice of Air Disasters on Smithsonian Channel, NewsNation, and network TV affiliates across the country. He is a committee chair for his union, SAG-AFTRA, teaches Voiceovers for SAG-AFTRA Foundation, Media Awareness for Los Angeles Unified School District, and is a trained grief counsellor. Member: Actors Equity Association, Screen Actors Guild-AFTRA, National Storytelling Network • https://billratner.com • @billratner Ways to connect with Bill: https://soundcloud.com/bill-ratner https://www.instagram.com/billratner/ https://twitter.com/billratner https://www.threads.net/@billratner https://billratner.tumblr.com https://www.youtube.com/@billratner/videos https://www.facebook.com/billratner.voiceover.author https://bsky.app/profile/bilorat.bsky.social About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well on a gracious hello to you, wherever you may be, I am your host. Mike hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to have a voice actor, person, Bill Ratner, who you want to know who Bill Radnor is, go back and watch the old GI Joe cartoons and listen to the voice of Flint.   Bill Ratner ** 01:42 All right. Lady Jay, you better get your battle gear on, because Cobra is on their way. And I can't bring up the Lacher threat weapon system. We got to get out of here. Yo, Joe,   Michael Hingson ** 01:52 there you go. I rest my case Well, Bill, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Bill Ratner ** 02:00 We can't rest now. Michael, we've just begun. No, we've just begun.   Michael Hingson ** 02:04 We got to keep going here. Well, I'm really glad that you're here. Bill is another person who we inveigled to get on unstoppable mindset with the help of Walden Hughes. And so that means we can talk about Walden all we want today. Bill just saying, oh goodness. And I got a lot to say. Let me tell you perfect, perfect. Bring it on. So we are really grateful to Walden, although I hope he's not listening. We don't want to give him a big head. But no, seriously, we're really grateful. Ah, good point.   Bill Ratner ** 02:38 But his posture, oddly enough, is perfect.   Michael Hingson ** 02:40 Well, there you go. What do you do? He practiced. Well, anyway, we're glad you're here. Tell us about the early bill, growing up and all that stuff. It's always fun to start a good beginning.   Bill Ratner ** 02:54 Well, I was a very lucky little boy. I was born in Des Moines, Iowa in 1947 to two lovely people, professionals, both with master's degree out at University of Chicago. My mother was a social worker. My father had an MBA in business. He was managing editor of Better Homes and Gardens magazine. So I had the joy of living in a better home and living in a garden.   Michael Hingson ** 03:21 My mother. How long were you in Des Moines?   Bill Ratner ** 03:24 Five and a half years left before my sixth birthday. My dad got a fancy job at an ad agency in Minneapolis, and had a big brother named Pete and big handsome, curly haired boy with green eyes. And moved to Minneapolis, Minnesota, and was was brought up there.   Michael Hingson ** 03:45 Wow. So you went to school there and and chased the girls and all that stuff.   Bill Ratner ** 03:54 I went to school there at Blake School for Boys in Hopkins, Minnesota. Couldn't chase the girls day school, but the girls we are allowed to dance with certainly not chase. Michael was at woodhue dancing school, the Northrop girls from Northrop girls school and the Blake boys were put together in eighth grade and taught the Cha Cha Cha, the waltz, the Charleston, and we danced together, and the girls wore white gloves, and we sniffed their perfume, and we all learned how to be lovers when we were 45   Michael Hingson ** 04:37 There you are. Well, as long as you learned at some point, that's a good start.   Bill Ratner ** 04:44 It's a weird generation. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 04:46 I've been to Des Moines before. I was born in Chicago, but moved out to California when I was five, but I did some work with the National Federation of the Blind in the mid 19. 1970s 1976 into 1978 so spent time at the Iowa Commission for the Blind in Des Moines, which became a top agency for the Blind in well, the late 50s into the to the 60s and so on. So   Bill Ratner ** 05:15 both my parents are from Chicago. My father from the south side of Chicago, 44th and Kenzie, which was a Irish, Polish, Italian, Jewish, Ukrainian neighborhood. And my mother from Glencoe, which was a middle class suburb above Northwestern University in Evanston.   Michael Hingson ** 05:34 I Where were you born? 57th and union, north, south side, no, South   Bill Ratner ** 05:42 57th union is that? Is that west of Kenzie?   Michael Hingson ** 05:46 You know, I don't remember the geography well enough to know, but I know that it was, I think, Mount Sinai Hospital where I was born. But it was, it's, it's, it's a pretty tough neighborhood today. So I understand,   Bill Ratner ** 06:00 yeah, yeah, my it was tough, then it's tough now,   Michael Hingson ** 06:03 yeah, I think it's tougher, supposedly, than it was. But we lived there for five years, and then we we moved to California, and I remember some things about Chicago. I remember walking down to the local candy store most days, and had no problem doing that. My parents were told they should shut me away at a home somewhere, because no blind child could ever grow up to amount to anything. And my parents said, You guys are you're totally wrong. And they brought me up with that attitude. So, you   Bill Ratner ** 06:32 know who said that the school says school so that   Michael Hingson ** 06:35 doctors doctors when they discovered I was blind with the   Bill Ratner ** 06:38 kid, goodness gracious, horrified.   Michael Hingson ** 06:44 Well, my parents said absolutely not, and they brought me up, and they actually worked with other parents of premature kids who became blind, and when kindergarten started in for us in in the age of four, they actually had a special kindergarten class for blind kids at the Perry School, which is where I went. And so I did that for a year, learn braille and some other things. Then we moved to California, but yeah, and I go back to Chicago every so often. And when I do nowadays, they I one of my favorite places to migrate in Chicago is Garrett Popcorn.   Bill Ratner ** 07:21 Ah, yes, with caramel corn, regular corn, the   Michael Hingson ** 07:25 Chicago blend, which is a mixture, yeah, the Chicago blend is cheese corn, well, as it is with caramel corn, and they put much other mozzarella on it as well. It's really good.   Bill Ratner ** 07:39 Yeah, so we're on the air. Michael, what do you call your what do you call your program? Here I am your new friend, and I can't even announce your program because I don't know   Michael Hingson ** 07:48 the name, unstoppable mindset. This   Bill Ratner ** 07:51 is unstoppable mindset.   Michael Hingson ** 07:56 We're back. Well, we're back already. We're fast. So you, you, you moved off elsewhere, out of Des Moines and all that. And where did you go to college?   Bill Ratner ** 08:09 Well, this is like, why did you this is, this is a bit like talking about the Vietnam War. Looking back on my college career is like looking back on the Vietnam War series, a series of delusions and defeats. By the time I the time i for college, by the time I was applying for college, I was an orphan, orphan, having been born to fabulous parents who died too young of natural causes. So my grades in high school were my mediocre. I couldn't get into the Ivy Leagues. I got into the big 10 schools. My stepmother said, you're going to Michigan State in East Lansing because your cousin Eddie became a successful realtor. And Michigan State was known as mu u it was the most successful, largest agriculture college and university in the country. Kids from South Asia, China, Northern Europe, Southern Europe, South America all over the world came to Michigan State to study agricultural sciences, children of rich farmers all over the world and middle class farmers all over the world, and a huge police science department. Part of the campus was fenced off, and the young cadets, 1819, 20 years old, would practice on the rest of the student body, uniformed with hats and all right, excuse me, young man, we're just going to get some pizza at eight o'clock on Friday night. Stand against your car. Hands in your car. I said, Are you guys practicing again? Shut up and spread your legs. So that was that was Michigan State, and even though both my parents had master's degrees, I just found all the diversions available in the 1960s to be too interesting, and was not invited. Return after my sophomore year, and in order to flunk out of a big 10 University, and they're fine universities, all of them, you have to be either really determined or not so smart, not really capable of doing that level of study in undergraduate school. And I'd like to think that I was determined. I used to show up for my exams with a little blue book, and the only thing I would write is due to lack of knowledge, I am unable to complete this exam, sign Bill ranter and get up early and hand it in and go off. And so what was, what was left for a young man like that was the theater I'd seen the great Zero Mostel when I was 14 years old and on stage live, he looked just like my father, and he was funny, and if I Were a rich man, and that's the grade zero must tell. Yeah, and it took about five, no, it took about six, seven years to percolate inside my bread and my brain. In high school, I didn't want to do theater. The cheerleaders and guys who I had didn't happen to be friends with or doing theater. I took my girlfriends to see plays, but when I was 21 I started acting, and I've been an actor ever since. I'm a committee chair on the screen actors guild in Hollywood and Screen Actors Guild AFTRA, and work as a voice actor and collect my pensions and God bless the union.   Michael Hingson ** 11:44 Well, hey, as long as it works and you're making progress, you know you're still with it, right?   Bill Ratner ** 11:53 That's the that's the point. There's no accounting for taste in my business. Michael, you work for a few different broadcast entities at my age. And it's, you know, it's younger people. It's 18 to 3418 years to 34 years old is the ideal demographic for advertisers, Ford, Motor Company, Dove soap, Betty, Crocker, cake mixes and cereals, every conceivable product that sold online or sold on television and radio. This is my this is my meat, and I don't work for religion. However, if a religious organization calls, I call and say, I I'm not, not qualified or not have my divinity degree in order to sell your church to the public?   Michael Hingson ** 12:46 Yeah, yeah. Well, I, I can understand that. But you, you obviously do a lot, and as we talked about, you were Flint and GI Joe, which is kind of cool.   Bill Ratner ** 13:01 Flynn GI Joe was very cool. Hasbro Corporation, which was based in Providence, Rhode Island, had a huge success with GI Joe, the figure. The figure was about 11 and a half inches tall, like a Barbie, and was at first, was introduced to the public after the Korean War. There is a comic book that was that was also published about GI Joe. He was an individual figure. He was a figure, a sort of mythic cartoon figure during World War Two, GI Joe, generic American soldier, fighting man and but the Vietnam war dragged on for a long time, and the American buying public or buying kids toys got tired of GI Joe, got tired of a military figure in their household and stopped buying. And when Nixon ended the Vietnam War, or allotted to finish in 1974 Hasbro was in the tank. It's got its stock was cheap, and executives are getting nervous. And then came the Great George Lucas in Star Wars, who shrank all these action figures down from 11 and a half inches to three and a half inches, and went to China and had Chinese game and toy makers make Star Wars toys, and began to earn billions and billions dollars. And so Hasbro said, let's turn GI Joe into into a team. And the team began with flint and Lady J and Scarlett and Duke and Destro and cover commander, and grew to 85 different characters, because Hasbro and the toy maker partners could create 85 different sets of toys and action figures. So I was actor in this show and had a good time, and also a purveyor of a billion dollar industry of American toys. And the good news about these toys is I was at a conference where we signed autographs the voice actors, and we have supper with fans and so on. And I was sitting next to a 30 year old kid and his parents. And this kid was so knowledgeable about pop culture and every conceivable children's show and animated show that had ever been on the screen or on television. I turned to his mother and sort of being a wise acre, said, So ma'am, how do you feel about your 30 year old still playing with GI Joe action figures? And she said, Well, he and I both teach English in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania school system, and last year, the literacy level of my ninth graders was 50% 50% of those kids could not read in ninth grade. So I asked the principal if I could borrow my son's GI Joe, action figures, comic books and VHS tapes, recordings of the shows from TV. And he said, Sure, whatever you want to try. And so she did, and she played the video tapes, and these kids were thrilled. They'd never seen a GI Joe cartoon in class before. Passed out the comic books, let him read comics. And then she said, Okay, you guys. And passed out notebooks and pens and pencils, and said, I want you guys to make up some some shows, some GI Joe shows. And so they said, Yeah, we're ready. All right, Cobra, you better get into the barber shop, because the barber bill is no longer there and the fire engines are in the way. And wait a minute, there's a dog in the street. And so they're making this up, using their imagination, doing their schoolwork, by coming up with scenarios, imaginary fam fan fiction for GI Joe and she raised the literacy level in her classroom by 50% that year, by the end of that year, so, so that was the only story that I've ever heard about the sort of the efficacy of GI Joe, other than, you know, kids play with them. Do they? Are they shooting each other all the time? I certainly hope not. I hope not. Are they using the action figures? Do they strip their guns off and put them in a little, you know, stub over by the side and and have them do physical battle with each other, or have them hump the woods, or have them climb the stairs, or have them search the trees. Who knows what kids do? Same with same with girls and and Barbies. Barbie has been a source of fun and creativity for lots of girls, and the source of of worry and bother to a lot of parents as   Michael Hingson ** 17:54 well. Well, at the same time, though, when kids start to react and relate to some of these things. It's, it's pretty cool. I mean, look what's happened with the whole Harry Potter movement and craze. Harry Potter has probably done more in the last 20 or 25 years to promote reading for kids than most anything else, and   Bill Ratner ** 18:17 that's because it's such a good series of books. I read them to my daughters, yeah. And the quality of writing. She was a brilliant writer, not only just the stories and the storytelling, which is fun to watch in the movies, and you know, it's great for a parent to read. If there are any parents listening, I don't care how old your kids are. I don't care if they're 15. Offer to read to them. The 15 year old might, of course, say mom, but anybody younger than that might say either, all right, fine, which is, which means you better do it or read, read a book. To me, sure, it's fun for the parent, fun for the kid, and it makes the child a completely different kind of thinker and worker and earner.   Michael Hingson ** 19:05 Well, also the people who they got to read the books for the recordings Stephen Fry and in the US here, Jim Dale did such an incredible job as well. I've, I've read the whole Harry Potter series more than once, because I just enjoy them, and I enjoy listening to the the voices. They do such a good job. Yeah. And of course, for me, one of the interesting stories that I know about Jim Dale reading Harry Potter was since it was published by Scholastic he was actually scheduled to do a reading from one of the Harry from the new Harry Potter book that was coming out in 2001 on September 11, he was going to be at Scholastic reading. And of course, that didn't happen because of of everything that did occur. So I don't know whether I'm. I'm assuming at some point a little bit later, he did, but still he was scheduled to be there and read. But it they are there. They've done so much to help promote reading, and a lot of those kinds of cartoons and so on. Have done some of that, which is, which is pretty good. So it's good to, you know, to see that continue to happen. Well, so you've written several books on poetry and so on, and I know that you you've mentioned more than once grief and loss. How come those words keep coming up?   Bill Ratner ** 20:40 Well, I had an unusual childhood. Again. I mentioned earlier how, what a lucky kid I was. My parents were happy, educated, good people, not abusers. You know, I don't have a I don't have horror stories to tell about my mother or my father, until my mother grew sick with breast cancer and and it took about a year and a half or two years to die when I was seven years old. The good news is, because she was a sensitive, educated social worker, as she was actually dying, she arranged a death counseling session with me and my older brother and the Unitarian minister who was also a death counselor, and whom she was seeing to talk about, you know, what it was like to be dying of breast cancer with two young kids. And at this session, which was sort of surprised me, I was second grade, came home from school. In the living room was my mother and my brother looking a little nervous, and Dr Carl storm from the Unitarian Church, and she said, you know, Dr storm from church, but he's also my therapist. And we talk about my illness and how I feel, and we talk about how much I love you boys, and talk about how I worry about Daddy. And this is what one does when one is in crisis. That was a moment that was not traumatic for me. It's a moment I recalled hundreds of times, and one that has been a guiding light through my life. My mother's death was very difficult for my older brother, who was 13 who grew up in World War Two without without my father, it was just him and my mother when he was off in the Pacific fighting in World War Two. And then I was born after the war. And the loss of a mother in a family is like the bottom dropping out of a family. But luckily, my dad met a woman he worked with a highly placed advertising executive, which was unusual for a female in the 1950s and she became our stepmother a year later, and we had some very lovely, warm family years with her extended family and our extended family and all of us together until my brother got sick, came down with kidney disease a couple of years before kidney dialysis was invented, and a couple of years before kidney transplants were done, died at 19. Had been the captain of the swimming team at our high school, but did a year in college out in California and died on Halloween of 1960 my father was 51 years old. His eldest son had died. He had lost his wife six years earlier. He was working too hard in the advertising industry, successful man and dropped out of a heart attack 14th birthday. Gosh, I found him unconscious on the floor of our master bathroom in our house. So my life changed. I My life has taught me many, many things. It's taught me how the defense system works in trauma. It's taught me the resilience of a child. It's taught me the kindness of strangers. It's taught me the sadness of loss.   Michael Hingson ** 24:09 Well, you, you seem to come through all of it pretty well. Well, thank you. A question behind that, just an observation, but, but you do seem to, you know, obviously, cope with all of it and do pretty well. So you, you've always liked to be involved in acting and so on. How did you actually end up deciding to be a voice actor?   Bill Ratner ** 24:39 Well, my dad, after he was managing editor of Better Homes and Gardens magazine in Des Moines for Meredith publishing, got offered a fancy job as executive vice president of the flower and mix division for Campbell within advertising and later at General Mills Corporation. From Betty Crocker brand, and would bring me to work all the time, and would sit with me, and we'd watch the wonderful old westerns that were on prime time television, rawhide and Gunsmoke and the Virginian and sure   Michael Hingson ** 25:15 and all those. Yeah, during   Bill Ratner ** 25:17 the commercials, my father would make fun of the commercials. Oh, look at that guy. And number one, son, that's lousy acting. Number two, listen to that copy. It's the dumbest ad copy I've ever seen. The jingles and and then he would say, No, that's a good commercial, right there. And he wasn't always negative. He would he was just a good critic of advertising. So at a very young age, starting, you know, when we watch television, I think the first television ever, he bought us when I was five years old, I was around one of the most educated, active, funny, animated television critics I could hope to have in my life as a 56789, 1011, 12 year old. And so when I was 12, I became one of the founding members of the Brotherhood of radio stations with my friends John Waterhouse and John Barstow and Steve gray and Bill Connors in South Minneapolis. I named my five watt night kit am transmitter after my sixth grade teacher, Bob close this is wclo stereo radio. And when I was in sixth grade, I built myself a switch box, and I had a turntable and I had an intercom, and I wired my house for sound, as did all the other boys in the in the B, O, R, S, and that's brotherhood of radio stations. And we were guests on each other's shows, and we were obsessed, and we would go to the shopping malls whenever a local DJ was making an appearance and torture him and ask him dumb questions and listen obsessively to American am radio. And at the time for am radio, not FM like today, or internet on your little radio tuner, all the big old grandma and grandpa radios, the wooden ones, were AM, for amplitude modulated. You could get stations at night, once the sun went down and the later it got, the ionosphere would lift and the am radio signals would bounce higher and farther. And in Minneapolis, at age six and seven, I was able to to listen to stations out of Mexico and Texas and Chicago, and was absolutely fascinated with with what was being put out. And I would, I would switch my brother when I was about eight years old, gave me a transistor radio, which I hid under my bed covers. And at night, would turn on and listen for, who knows, hours at a time, and just tuning the dial and tuning the dial from country to rock and roll to hit parade to news to commercials to to agric agriculture reports to cow crossings in Kansas and grain harvesting and cheese making in Wisconsin, and on and on and on that made up the great medium of radio that was handing its power and its business over to television, just as I was growing As a child. Fast, fascinating transition   Michael Hingson ** 28:18 and well, but as it was transitioning, how did that affect you?   Bill Ratner ** 28:26 It made television the romantic, exciting, dynamic medium. It made radio seem a little limited and antiquated, and although I listened for environment and wasn't able to drag a television set under my covers. Yeah, and television became memorable with with everything from actual world war two battle footage being shown because there wasn't enough programming to 1930s Warner Brothers gangster movies with James Cagney, Edward G   Michael Hingson ** 29:01 Robinson and yeah   Bill Ratner ** 29:02 to all the sitcoms, Leave It to Beaver and television cartoons and on and on and on. And the most memorable elements to me were the personalities, and some of whom were invisible. Five years old, I was watching a Kids program after school, after kindergarten. We'll be back with more funny puppets, marionettes after this message and the first words that came on from an invisible voice of this D baritone voice, this commercial message will be 60 seconds long, Chrysler Dodge for 1954 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I watched hypnotized, hypnotized as a 1953 dodge drove across the screen with a happy family of four waving out the window. And at the end of the commercial, I ran into the kitchen said, Mom, mom, I know what a minute. Is, and it was said, it had suddenly come into my brain in one of those very rare and memorable moments in a person's life where your brain actually speaks to you in its own private language and says, Here is something very new and very true, that 60 seconds is in fact a minute. When someone says, See you in five minutes, they mean five times that, five times as long as that. Chrysler commercial, five times 60. That's 300 seconds. And she said, Did you learn it that that on T in kindergarten? And I said, No, I learned it from kangaroo Bob on TV, his announcer, oh, kangaroo Bob, no, but this guy was invisible. And so at five years of age, I was aware of the existence of the practice of the sound, of the magic of the seemingly unlimited access to facts, figures, products, brand names that these voices had and would say on the air in This sort of majestic, patriarchal way,   Michael Hingson ** 31:21 and just think 20 years later, then you had James Earl Jones,   Bill Ratner ** 31:26 the great dame. James Earl Jones, father was a star on stage at that time the 1950s James Earl Jones came of age in the 60s and became Broadway and off Broadway star.   Michael Hingson ** 31:38 I got to see him in Othello. He was playing Othello. What a powerful performance. It was   Bill Ratner ** 31:43 wonderful performer. Yeah, yeah. I got to see him as Big Daddy in Canada, Hot Tin Roof, ah, live and in person, he got front row seats for me and my family.   Michael Hingson ** 31:53 Yeah, we weren't in the front row, but we saw it. We saw it on on Broadway,   Bill Ratner ** 31:58 the closest I ever got to James Earl Jones. He and I had the same voice over agent, woman named Rita vinari of southern Barth and benare company. And I came into the agency to audition for Doritos, and I hear this magnificent voice coming from behind a closed voiceover booth, saying, with a with a Spanish accent, Doritos. I thought that's James Earl Jones. Why is he saying burritos? And he came out, and he bowed to me, nodded and smiled, and I said, hello and and the agent probably in the booth and shut the door. And she said, I said, that was James Earl Jones. What a voice. What she said, Oh, he's such a nice man. And she said, but I couldn't. I was too embarrassed. I was too afraid to stop him from saying, Doritos. And it turns out he didn't get the gig. So it is some other voice actor got it because he didn't say, had he said Doritos with the agent froze it froze up. That was as close as I ever got to did you get the gig? Oh goodness no,   Michael Hingson ** 33:01 no, you didn't, huh? Oh, well, well, yeah. I mean, it was a very, it was, it was wonderful. It was James Earl Jones and Christopher Plummer played Iago. Oh, goodness, oh, I know. What a what a combination. Well, so you, you did a lot of voiceover stuff. What did you do regarding radio moving forward? Or did you just go completely out of that and you were in TV? Or did you have any opportunity   Bill Ratner ** 33:33 for me to go back at age 15, my brother and father, who were big supporters of my radio. My dad would read my W, C, l, o, newsletter and need an initial, an excellent journalism son and my brother would bring his teenage friends up. He'd play the elderly brothers, man, you got an Elvis record, and I did. And you know, they were, they were big supporters for me as a 13 year old, but when I turned 14, and had lost my brother and my father, I lost my enthusiasm and put all of my radio equipment in a box intended to play with it later. Never, ever, ever did again. And when I was about 30 years old and I'd done years of acting in the theater, having a great time doing fun plays and small theaters in Minneapolis and South Dakota and and Oakland, California and San Francisco. I needed money, so I looked in the want ads and saw a job for telephone sales, and I thought, Well, I used to love the telephone. I used to make phony phone calls to people all the time. Used to call funeral homes. Hi Carson, funeral I help you. Yes, I'm calling to tell you that you have a you have a dark green slate tile. Roof, isn't that correct? Yes. Well, there's, there's a corpse on your roof. Lady for goodness sake, bring it down and we laugh and we record it and and so I thought, Well, gee, I used to have a lot of fun with the phone. And so I called the number of telephone sales and got hired to sell magazine subscriptions and dinner tickets to Union dinners and all kinds of things. And then I saw a new job at a radio station, suburban radio station out in Walnut Creek, California, a lovely Metro BART train ride. And so I got on the BART train, rode out there and walked in for the interview, and was told I was going to be selling small advertising packages on radio for the station on the phone. And so I called barber shops and beauty shops and gas stations in the area, and one guy picked up the phone and said, Wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Are you on the radio right now? And I said, No, I'm just I'm in the sales room. Well, maybe you should be. And he slams the phone on me. He didn't want to talk to me anymore. It wasn't interested in buying advertising. I thought, gee. And I told somebody at the station, and they said, Well, you want to be in the radio? And he went, Yeah, I was on the radio when I was 13. And it just so happened that an older fellow was retiring from the 10am to 2pm slot. K I S King, kiss 99 and KD FM, Pittsburgh, California. And it was a beautiful music station. It was a music station. Remember, old enough will remember music that used to play in elevators that was like violin music, the Percy faith orchestra playing a Rolling Stone song here in the elevator. Yes, well, that's exactly what we played. And it would have been harder to get a job at the local rock stations because, you know, they were popular places. And so I applied for the job, and   Michael Hingson ** 37:06 could have lost your voice a lot sooner, and it would have been a lot harder if you had had to do Wolfman Jack. But that's another story.   Bill Ratner ** 37:13 Yeah, I used to listen to Wolf Man Jack. I worked in a studio in Hollywood. He became a studio. Yeah, big time.   Michael Hingson ** 37:22 Anyway, so you you got to work at the muzack station, got   Bill Ratner ** 37:27 to work at the muzack station, and I was moving to Los Angeles to go to a bigger market, to attempt to penetrate a bigger broadcast market. And one of the sales guys, a very nice guy named Ralph pizzella said, Well, when you get to La you should study with a friend of mine down to pie Troy, he teaches voiceovers. I said, What are voice overs? He said, You know that CVS Pharmacy commercial just carted up and did 75 tags, available in San Fernando, available in San Clemente, available in Los Angeles, available in Pasadena. And I said, Yeah. He said, Well, you didn't get paid any extra. You got paid your $165 a week. The guy who did that commercial for the ad agency got paid probably 300 bucks, plus extra for the tags, that's voiceovers. And I thought, why? There's an idea, what a concept. So he gave me the name and number of old friend acquaintance of his who he'd known in radio, named Don DiPietro, alias Johnny rabbit, who worked for the Dick Clark organization, had a big rock and roll station there. He'd come to LA was doing voiceovers and teaching voiceover classes in a little second story storefront out of the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles. So I signed up for his class, and he was an experienced guy, and he liked me, and we all had fun, and I realized I was beginning to study like an actor at 1818, who goes to New York or goes to Los Angeles or Chicago or Atlanta or St Louis to act in the big theaters, and starts acting classes and realizes, oh my goodness, these people are truly professionals. I don't know how to do what they do. And so for six years, I took voice over classes, probably 4050, nights a year, and from disc jockeys, from ex show hosts, from actors, from animated cartoon voices, and put enough time in to get a degree in neurology in medical school. And worked my way up in radio in Los Angeles and had a morning show, a lovely show with a wonderful news man named Phil Reed, and we talked about things and reviewed movies and and played a lot of music. And then I realized, wait a minute, I'm earning three times the money in voiceovers as I am on the radio, and I have to get up at 430 in the morning to be on the radio. Uh, and a wonderful guy who was Johnny Carson's staff announcer named Jack angel said, You're not still on radio, are you? And I said, Well, yeah, I'm working in the morning. And Ka big, get out of there. Man, quit. Quit. And I thought, well, how can I quit? I've always wanted to be a radio announcer. And then there was another wonderful guy on the old am station, kmpc, sweet Dick Whittington. Whittington, right? And he said at a seminar that I went to at a union voice over training class, when you wake up at four in the morning and you swing your legs over the bed and your shoes hit the floor, and you put your head in your hands, and you say to yourself, I don't want to do this anymore. That's when you quit radio. Well, that hadn't happened to me. I was just getting up early to write some comedy segments and on and on and on, and then I was driving around town all day doing auditions and rented an ex girlfriend's second bedroom so that I could nap by myself during the day, when I had an hour in and I would as I would fall asleep, I'd picture myself every single day I'm in a dark voiceover studio, a microphone Is before me, a music stand is before the microphone, and on it is a piece of paper with advertising copy on it. On the other side of the large piece of glass of the recording booth are three individuals, my employers, I begin to read, and somehow the text leaps off the page, streams into my eyes, letter for letter, word for word, into a part of my back brain that I don't understand and can't describe. It is processed in my semi conscious mind with the help of voice over training and hope and faith, and comes out my mouth, goes into the microphone, is recorded in the digital recorder, and those three men, like little monkeys, lean forward and say, Wow, how do you do that? That was my daily creative visualization. Michael, that was my daily fantasy. And I had learned that from from Dale Carnegie, and I had learned that from Olympic athletes on NBC TV in the 60s and 70s, when the announcer would say, this young man you're seeing practicing his high jump is actually standing there. He's standing stationary, and the bouncing of the head is he's actually rehearsing in his mind running and running and leaping over the seven feet two inch bar and falling into the sawdust. And now he's doing it again, and you could just barely see the man nodding his head on camera at the exact rhythm that he would be running the 25 yards toward the high bar and leaping, and he raised his head up during the imaginary lead that he was visualizing, and then he actually jumped the seven foot two inches. That's how I learned about creative visualization from NBC sports on TV.   Michael Hingson ** 43:23 Channel Four in Los Angeles. There you go. Well, so you you broke into voice over, and that's what you did.   Bill Ratner ** 43:38 That's what I did, darn it, I ain't stopping now, there's a wonderful old actor named Bill Irwin. There two Bill Irwin's one is a younger actor in his 50s or 60s, a brilliant actor from Broadway to film and TV. There's an older William Irwin. They also named Bill Irwin, who's probably in his 90s now. And I went to a premiere of a film, and he was always showing up in these films as The senile stock broker who answers the phone upside down, or the senile board member who always asks inappropriate questions. And I went up to him and I said, you know, I see you in everything, man. I'm 85 years old. Some friends and associates of mine tell me I should slow down. I only got cast in movies and TV when I was 65 I ain't slowing down. If I tried to slow down at 85 I'd have to stop That's my philosophy. My hero is the great Don Pardo, the late great   Michael Hingson ** 44:42 for Saturday Night Live and Jeopardy   Bill Ratner ** 44:45 lives starring Bill Murray, Gilder Radner, and   Michael Hingson ** 44:49 he died for Jeopardy before that,   Bill Ratner ** 44:52 yeah, died at 92 with I picture him, whether it probably not, with a microphone and. His hand in his in his soundproof booth, in his in his garage, and I believe he lived in Arizona, although the show was aired and taped in New York, New York, right where he worked for for decades as a successful announcer. So that's the story.   Michael Hingson ** 45:16 Michael. Well, you know, I miss, very frankly, some of the the the days of radio back in the 60s and 70s and so on. We had, in LA what you mentioned, Dick Whittington, Dick whittinghill on kmpc, Gary Owens, you know, so many people who were such wonderful announcers and doing some wonderful things, and radio just isn't the same anymore. It's gone. It's   Bill Ratner ** 45:47 gone to Tiktok and YouTube. And the truth is, I'm not gonna whine about Tiktok or YouTube, because some of the most creative moments on camera are being done on Tiktok and YouTube by young quote influencers who hire themselves out to advertisers, everything from lipstick. You know,   Speaker 1 ** 46:09 when I went to a party last night was just wild and but this makeup look, watch me apply this lip remover and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, no, I have no lip.   Bill Ratner ** 46:20 You know, these are the people with the voices. These are the new voices. And then, of course, the faces. And so I would really advise before, before people who, in fact, use the internet. If you use the internet, you can't complain if you use the internet, if you go to Facebook or Instagram, or you get collect your email or Google, this or that, which most of us do, it's handy. You can't complain about tick tock, tick tock, tick tock. You can't complain about tick tock or YouTube, because it's what the younger generation is using, and it's what the younger generation advertisers and advertising executives and creators and musicians and actors are using to parade before us, as Gary Owens did, as Marlon Brando did, as Sarah Bernhardt did in the 19 so as all as you do, Michael, you're a parader. You're the head of the parade. You've been in on your own float for years. I read your your bio. I don't even know why you want to waste a minute talking to me for goodness sakes.   Michael Hingson ** 47:26 You know, the one thing about podcasts that I like over radio, and I did radio at kuci for seven years when I was in school, what I really like about podcasts is they're not and this is also would be true for Tiktok and YouTube. Primarily Tiktok, I would would say it isn't as structured. So if we don't finish in 60 minutes, and we finish in 61 minutes, no one's gonna shoot us.   Bill Ratner ** 47:53 Well, I beg to differ with you. Now. I'm gonna start a fight with you. Michael, yeah, we need conflict in this script. Is that it The Tick Tock is very structured. Six. No,   Michael Hingson ** 48:03 no, I understand that. I'm talking about podcasts,   Bill Ratner ** 48:07 though, but there's a problem. We gotta Tone It Up. We gotta pick it up. We gotta there's a lot of and I listen to what are otherwise really bright, wonderful personalities on screen, celebrities who have podcasts and the car sucks, and then I had meatballs for dinner, haha. And you know what my wife said? Why? You know? And there's just too much of that. And,   Michael Hingson ** 48:32 oh, I understand, yeah. I mean, it's like, like anything, but I'm just saying that's one of the reasons I love podcasting. So it's my way of continuing what I used to do in radio and having a lot of fun doing it   Bill Ratner ** 48:43 all right, let me ask you. Let me ask you a technical and editorial question. Let me ask you an artistic question. An artist, can you edit this podcast? Yeah. Are you? Do you plan to Nope.   Michael Hingson ** 48:56 I think conversations are conversations, but there is a but, I mean,   Bill Ratner ** 49:01 there have been starts and stops and I answer a question, and there's a long pause, and then, yeah, we can do you edit that stuff   Michael Hingson ** 49:08 out. We do, we do, edit some of that out. And I have somebody that that that does a lot of it, because I'm doing more podcasts, and also I travel and speak, but I can edit. There's a program called Reaper, which is really a very sophisticated   Bill Ratner ** 49:26 close up spaces. You   Michael Hingson ** 49:28 can close up spaces with it, yes, but the neat thing about Reaper is that somebody has written scripts to make it incredibly accessible for blind people using screen readers.   Bill Ratner ** 49:40 What does it do? What does it do? Give me the elevator pitch.   Michael Hingson ** 49:46 You've seen some of the the programs that people use, like computer vision and other things to do editing of videos and so on. Yeah.   Bill Ratner ** 49:55 Yeah. Even Apple. Apple edit. What is it called? Apple? Garage Band. No, that's audio. What's that   Michael Hingson ** 50:03 audio? Oh,   Bill Ratner ** 50:06 quick time is quick   Michael Hingson ** 50:07 time. But whether it's video or audio, the point is that Reaper allows me to do all of that. I can edit audio. I can insert, I can remove pauses. I can do anything with Reaper that anyone else can do editing audio, because it's been made completely accessible.   Bill Ratner ** 50:27 That's great. That's good. That's nice. Oh, it is. It's cool.   Michael Hingson ** 50:31 So so if I want, I can edit this and just have my questions and then silence when you're talking.   Bill Ratner ** 50:38 That might be best. Ladies and gentlemen, here's Bill Ratner,   Michael Hingson ** 50:46 yep, exactly, exactly. Now you have won the moth stories. Slam, what? Tell me about my story. Slam, you've won it nine times.   Bill Ratner ** 51:00 The Moth was started by a writer, a novelist who had lived in the South and moved to New York City, successful novelist named George Dawes green. And the inception of the moth, which many people listening are familiar with from the Moth Radio Hour. It was, I believe, either late 90s or early 2000s when he'd been in New York for a while and was was publishing as a fiction writer, and threw a party, and decided, instead of going to one of these dumb, boring parties or the same drinks being served and same cigarettes being smoked out in the veranda and the same orders. I'm going to ask people to bring a five minute story, a personal story, nature, a true story. You don't have to have one to get into the party, but I encourage you to. And so you know, the 3040, 50 people showed up, many of whom had stories, and they had a few drinks, and they had hors d'oeuvres. And then he said, Okay, ladies and gentlemen, take your seats. It's time for and then I picked names out of a hat, and person after person after person stood up in a very unusual setting, which was almost never done at parties. You How often do you see that happen? Suddenly, the room falls silent, and someone with permission being having been asked by the host to tell a personal story, some funny, some tragic, some complex, some embarrassing, some racy, some wild, some action filled. And afterward, the feedback he got from his friends was, this is the most amazing experience I've ever had in my life. And someone said, you need to do this. And he said, Well, you people left a lot of cigarette butts and beer cans around my apartment. And they said, well, let's do it at a coffee shop. Let's do it at a church basement. So slowly but surely, the moth storytelling, story slams, which were designed after the old poetry slams in the 50s and 60s, where they were judged contests like, like a dance contest. Everybody's familiar with dance contests? Well, there were, then came poetry contests with people singing and, you know, and singing and really energetically, really reading. There then came storytelling contests with people standing on a stage before a silent audience, telling a hopefully interesting, riveting story, beginning middle, end in five minutes. And so a coffee house was found. A monthly calendar was set up. Then came the internet. Then it was so popular standing room only that they had to open yet another and another, and today, some 20 years later, 20 some years later, from Austin, Texas to San Francisco, California to Minneapolis, Minnesota to New York City to Los Angeles. There are moth story slams available on online for you to schedule yourself to go live and in person at the moth.org as in the moth with wings. Friend of mine, I was in New York. He said, You can't believe it. This writer guy, a writer friend of mine who I had read, kind of an avant garde, strange, funny writer was was hosting something called the moth in New York, and we were texting each other. He said, Well, I want to go. The theme was show business. I was going to talk to my Uncle Bobby, who was the bell boy. And I Love Lucy. I'll tell a story. And I texted him that day. He said, Oh man, I'm so sorry. I had the day wrong. It's next week. Next week, I'm going to be back home. And so he said, Well, I think there's a moth in Los Angeles. So about 15 years ago, I searched it down and what? Went to a small Korean barbecue that had a tiny little stage that originally was for Korean musicians, and it was now being used for everything from stand up comedy to evenings of rock and roll to now moth storytelling once a month. And I think the theme was first time. And so I got up and told a silly story and didn't win first prize. They have judges that volunteer judges a table of three judges scoring, you like, at a swim meet or a track beat or, you know, and our gymnastics meet. So this is all sort of familiar territory for everybody, except it's storytelling and not high jumping or pull ups. And I kept going back. I was addicted to it. I would write a story and I'd memorize it, and I'd show up and try to make it four minutes and 50 seconds and try to make it sound like I was really telling a story and not reading from a script. And wish I wasn't, because I would throw the script away, and I knew the stories well enough. And then they created a radio show. And then I began to win slams and compete in the grand slams. And then I started submitting these 750 word, you know, two and a half page stories. Literary magazines got a few published and found a whole new way to spend my time and not make much   Michael Hingson ** 56:25 money. Then you went into poetry.   Bill Ratner ** 56:29 Then I got so bored with my prose writing that I took a poetry course from a wonderful guy in LA called Jack grapes, who had been an actor and a football player and come to Hollywood and did some TV, episodics and and some some episodic TV, and taught poetry. It was a poet in the schools, and I took his class of adults and got a poem published. And thought, wait a minute, these aren't even 750 words. They're like 75 words. I mean, you could write a 10,000 word poem if you want, but some people have, yeah, and it was complex, and there was so much to read and so much to learn and so much that was interesting and odd. And a daughter of a friend of mine is a poet, said, Mommy, are you going to read me one of those little word movies before I go to sleep?   Michael Hingson ** 57:23 A little word movie, word movie out of the   Bill Ratner ** 57:27 mouths of babes. Yeah, and so, so and I perform. You know, last night, I was in Orange County at a organization called ugly mug Cafe, and a bunch of us poets read from an anthology that was published, and we sold our books, and heard other young poets who were absolutely marvelous and and it's, you know, it's not for everybody, but it's one of the things I do.   Michael Hingson ** 57:54 Well, you sent me pictures of book covers, so they're going to be in the show notes. And I hope people will will go out and get them   Bill Ratner ** 58:01 cool. One of the one of the things that I did with poetry, in addition to wanting to get published and wanting to read before people, is wanting to see if there is a way. Because poetry was, was very satisfying, emotionally to me, intellectually very challenging and satisfying at times. And emotionally challenging and very satisfying at times, writing about things personal, writing about nature, writing about friends, writing about stories that I received some training from the National Association for poetry therapy. Poetry therapy is being used like art therapy, right? And have conducted some sessions and and participated in many and ended up working with eighth graders of kids who had lost someone to death in the past year of their lives. This is before covid in the public schools in Los Angeles. And so there's a lot of that kind of work that is being done by constable people, by writers, by poets, by playwrights,   Michael Hingson ** 59:09 and you became a grief counselor,   Bill Ratner ** 59:13 yes, and don't do that full time, because I do voiceovers full time, right? Write poetry and a grand. Am an active grandparent, but I do the occasional poetry session around around grief poetry.   Michael Hingson ** 59:31 So you're a grandparent, so you've had kids and all that. Yes, sir, well, that's is your wife still with us? Yes?   Bill Ratner ** 59:40 Oh, great, yeah, she's an artist and an art educator. Well, that   Michael Hingson ** 59:46 so the two of you can criticize each other's works, then, just   Bill Ratner ** 59:52 saying, we're actually pretty kind to each other. I Yeah, we have a lot of we have a lot of outside criticism. Them. So, yeah, you don't need to do it internally. We don't rely on it. What do you think of this although, although, more than occasionally, each of us will say, What do you think of this poem, honey? Or what do you think of this painting, honey? And my the favorite, favorite thing that my wife says that always thrills me and makes me very happy to be with her is, I'll come down and she's beginning a new work of a new piece of art for an exhibition somewhere. I'll say, what? Tell me about what's, what's going on with that, and she'll go, you know, I have no idea, but it'll tell me what to do.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:33 Yeah, it's, it's like a lot of authors talk about the fact that their characters write the stories right, which, which makes a lot of sense. So with all that you've done, are you writing a memoir? By any chance, I   Bill Ratner ** 1:00:46 am writing a memoir, and writing has been interesting. I've been doing it for many years. I got it was my graduate thesis from University of California Riverside Palm Desert.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:57 My wife was a UC Riverside graduate. Oh, hi. Well, they   Bill Ratner ** 1:01:01 have a low residency program where you go for 10 days in January, 10 days in June. The rest of it's online, which a lot of universities are doing, low residency programs for people who work and I got an MFA in creative writing nonfiction, had a book called parenting for the digital age, the truth about media's effect on children. And was halfway through it, the publisher liked it, but they said you got to double the length. So I went back to school to try to figure out how to double the length. And was was able to do it, and decided to move on to personal memoir and personal storytelling, such as goes on at the moth but a little more personal than that. Some of the material that I was reading in the memoir section of a bookstore was very, very personal and was very helpful to read about people who've gone through particular issues in their childhood. Mine not being physical abuse or sexual abuse, mine being death and loss, which is different. And so that became a focus of my graduate thesis, and many people were urging me to write a memoir. Someone said, you need to do a one man show. So I entered the Hollywood fringe and did a one man show and got good reviews and had a good time and did another one man show the next year and and so on. So But writing memoir as anybody knows, and they're probably listeners who are either taking memoir courses online or who may be actively writing memoirs or short memoir pieces, as everybody knows it, can put you through moods from absolutely ecstatic, oh my gosh, I got this done. I got this story told, and someone liked it, to oh my gosh, I'm so depressed I don't understand why. Oh, wait a minute, I was writing about such and such today. Yeah. So that's the challenge for the memoir is for the personal storyteller, it's also, you know, and it's more of a challenge than it is for the reader, unless it's bad writing and the reader can't stand that. For me as a reader, I'm fascinated by people's difficult stories, if they're well   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:24 told well, I know that when in 2002 I was advised to write a book about the World Trade Center experiences and all, and it took eight years to kind of pull it all together. And then I met a woman who actually I collaborated with, Susie Florey, and we wrote thunder dog. And her agent became my agent, who loved the proposal that we sent and actually got a contract within a week. So thunder dog came out in 2011 was a New York Times bestseller, and very blessed by that, and we're working toward the day that it will become a movie still, but it'll happen. And then I wrote a children's version of it, well, not a children's version of the book, but a children's book about me growing up in Roselle, growing up the guide dog who was with me in the World Trade Center, and that's been on Amazon. We self published it. Then last year, we published a new book called Live like a guide dog, which is all about controlling fear and teaching people lessons that I learned prior to September 11. That helped me focus and remain calm.   Bill Ratner ** 1:04:23 What happened to you on September 11,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:27 I was in the World Trade Center. I worked on the 78th floor of Tower One.   Bill Ratner ** 1:04:32 And what happened? I mean, what happened to you?   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:36 Um, nothing that day. I mean, well, I got out. How did you get out? Down the stairs? That was the only way to go. So, so the real story is not doing it, but why it worked. And the real issue is that I spent a lot of time when I first went into the World Trade Center, learning all I could about what to do in an emergency, talking to police, port authorities. Security people, emergency preparedness people, and also just walking around the world trade center and learning the whole place, because I ran an office for a company, and I wasn't going to rely on someone else to, like, lead me around if we're going to go to lunch somewhere and take people out before we negotiated contracts. So I needed to know all of that, and I learned all I could, also realizing that if there ever was an emergency, I might be the only one in the office, or we might be in an area where people couldn't read the signs to know what to do anyway. And so I had to take the responsibility of learning all that, which I did. And then when the planes hit 18 floors above us on the other side of the building, we get we had some guests in the office. Got them out, and then another colleague, who was in from our corporate office, and I and my guide dog, Roselle, went to the stairs, and we started down. And   Bill Ratner ** 1:05:54 so, so what floor did the plane strike?   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:58 It struck and the NOR and the North Tower, between floors 93 and 99 so I just say 96 okay, and you were 20 floors down, 78 floors 78 so we were 18 floors below, and   Bill Ratner ** 1:06:09 at the moment of impact, what did you think?   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:13 Had no idea we heard a muffled kind of explosion, because the plane hit on the other side of the building, 18 floors above us. There was no way to know what was going on. Did you feel? Did you feel? Oh, the building literally tipped, probably about 20 feet. It kept tipping. And then we actually said goodbye to each other, and then the building came back upright. And then we went,   Bill Ratner ** 1:06:34 really you so you thought you were going to die?   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:38 David, my colleague who was with me, as I said, he was from our California office, and he was there to help with some seminars we were going to be doing. We actually were saying goodbye to each other because we thought we were about to take a 78 floor plunge to the street, when the building stopped tipping and it came back. Designed to do that by the architect. It was designed to do that, which is the point, the point.   Bill Ratner ** 1:07:02 Goodness, gracious. And then did you know how to get to the stairway?   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:04 Oh, absolutely. And did you do it with your friend? Yeah, the first thing we did, the first thing we did is I got him to get we had some guests, and I said, get him to the stairs. Don't let him take the elevators, because I knew he had seen fire above us, but that's all we knew. And but I said, don't take the elevators. Don't let them take elevators. Get them to the stairs and then come back and we'll leave. So he did all that, and then he came back, and we went to the stairs and started down.   Bill Ratner ** 1:07:33 Wow. Could you smell anything?   Michael Hingson ** 1:07:36 We smelled burning jet fuel fumes on the way down. And that's how we figured out an airplane must have hit the building, but we had no idea what happened. We didn't know what happened until the until both towers had collapsed, and I actually talked to my wife, and she's the one who told us how to aircraft have been crashed into the towers, one into the Pentagon, and a fourth, at that time, was still missing over Pennsylvania. Wow. So you'll have to go pick up a copy of thunder dog. Goodness. Good. Thunder dog. The name of the book is Thunder dog, and the book I wrote last year is called Live like a guide dog. It's le

What does it mean to truly use your voice—to tell stories, bring words to life, and inspire others even when life throws challenge's your way? My guest this week, Amber Ba'th, embodies that Unstoppable spirit. Amber is a professional voice actor, a Bible narrator for the Dwell app, and a functional nutritionist who turned a life-changing diagnosis into a deeper calling. Amber opens up about performing on stage, finding her place in the booth, and learning resilience after being diagnosed with transverse myelitis. Her story reminds us that creativity and courage don't fade—they evolve. I think you'll be moved by her honesty, her strength, and her Unstoppable commitment to sharing her voice with the world.   Highlights:   00:10 – Hear how early curiosity in theater grew into a lifelong love for performance. 03:21 – Learn how family roots in the arts shaped a career in acting and voice. 07:21 – Discover why live theater creates a unique audience experience you can't get in film. 14:03 – See how studying Theater Arts Administration opened doors beyond the stage. 17:24 – Find out what moving to LA taught her about auditions, hustle, and opportunity. 25:37 – Get the real entry point into voiceover and why COVID pushed her to record at home. 27:26 – Understand the scope and process of narrating the entire CSB Bible for the Dwell app. 32:07 – Learn how leaning into “villain” characters can expand your VO range. 35:06 – Take why acting classes matter for believable, persuasive voiceover reads. 38:05 – Hear her journey with transverse myelitis and how she reframed ability. 43:47 – See how diet changes and self-advocacy supported healing and daily function. 54:14 – Learn practical nutrition tips VO pros use to protect tone and clarity.   About the Guest:   Hi, I'm Amber Ba'th—pronounced By-ee-th! I'm a Philadelphia native with roots in Los Angeles and Washington, D.C. I earned my BFA in Theatre Arts Administration from the legendary Howard University, and from the very beginning, storytelling and performance have been a huge part of my life. Whether through stage, screen, or sound, I believe creative expression has the ability to inspire, uplift, and connect people. That belief and my faith in Christ, has guided every step of my journey in the entertainment industry.   With over 20 years of experience in theater and film, I've worn many hats—actor, voice actor, producer, company manager, and coach. My early days at Philadelphia's Freedom Theatre gave me the foundation to work on national tours and major productions, such as The Fabric of a Man (national stage and film), and the national tour of If This Hat Could Talk under Tony Award-winning director George Faison. I've also stepped in front of the camera, appearing in Ice Cube's Friday After Next and national print campaigns for McDonald's that landed me in Essence, O Magazine, and Woman's World.   Voice acting has become one of my deepest passions. I've had the privilege of lending my voice to projects for Delorean, Holler Studios, Amazon, Make Originals, and most notably, narrating the greatest story ever told for the Dwell Bible App; just to name a few. I'm known for being versatile—able to bring warmth, humor, authority, and charisma into every read. Whether a character needs to feel animated, compassionate, bold, or simply relatable, I approach every project with creative precision and care.   I've been fortunate to learn from incredible mentors like Nick Omana, Art Evans, Queen Noveen, Linda Bearman, Al Woodley, Joyce Castellanos, JD Lawrence, and Rolonda Watts, and to collaborate with talent across every corner of this industry. I'm always growing, always listening, and always grateful. My goal is not only to entertain but also to reflect God's grace through my work. Faith is my anchor—it's the reason I'm able to keep showing up in this ever-changing field with joy and purpose.   Outside of my career, I'm a mother of two, and I live with a “different ability” that has only strengthened my walk and testimony. I believe that what God has for me is for me, and I want other artists to feel empowered to claim that same truth for themselves. As someone in the faith, You are royalty—act like it, speak like it, know it. I'm here to tell stories, give voice to vision, and ultimately to help others feel seen, heard, and deeply valued in this industry.   Ways to connect with Amber:   LinkedIn- https://www.linkedin.com/in/iamamberbath/   IG- https://www.instagram.com/iamamberbath/   YouTube- YouTube.com/@iamamberbath   Website- www.iamamberbath.com     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello everyone. Wherever you happen to be, I am Michael Hingson, and this is unstoppable mindset. We are really excited that you're here with us today. And we have a fascinating guest who was referred to us by another fascinating guest who is coming on unstoppable mindset, and we'll get to all that, I am sure. But Amber bath is how she pronounces her last name by eth. I'm saying that right. I assume that is correct. Oh, good. Never want to get it too wrong, you know. Anyway, Amber is a voice actor and does a lot of different things. And we learned about Amber from someone who we were referred to by Walden Hughes, that reps in yesterday USA, and Walden has been on unstoppable mindset a couple of times. Amber, do you know Walden? I know I don't. Well, then we can spread all sorts of rumors and you'll believe everyone, right, absolutely. Anyway. So anyway, what Linda Berryman, you know, so that works. Anyway, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. It's really a joy and a pleasure to have you, and thank you for being here.   Amber Ba'th ** 02:42 Thank you for having me. This is such an exciting moment. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:46 I'm anxious to learn all about voice acting and some of those things. But why don't we start by maybe you telling us a little bit about kind of the early Amber growing up and all that sort of stuff. Well, always a good place to start. You know, a   Amber Ba'th ** 03:02 long time ago   Michael Hingson ** 03:03 in a galaxy, far, far away, yes,   Amber Ba'th ** 03:07 oh my gosh. Well, I I'm a suburbian girl here. I'm from the suburbs, actually Philadelphia. I was actually born in DC, raised in Philly, went back to DC, then moved all the way across country to La La Land. Is that where you are now, I'm not. I'm actually back in DC.   Michael Hingson ** 03:33 Go figure. Right now I'm, I'm really curious to hear the history of all these moves. But anyway, so you were raised in Philadelphia. Did you ever meet Rocky Balboa? Just checking,   Amber Ba'th ** 03:45 no, just ran the steps. You did run the steps. I did run the steps. Yeah, actually got a heat stroke. But I did. I was, I was young at the time, and it was super hot. And you know, it's like, yeah, you know, I'm gonna run the steps. Ran the steps, and just shouldn't have   Michael Hingson ** 04:04 done that, not in the middle of the day. No, when did he run them? It was in the morning, wasn't it?   Amber Ba'th ** 04:11 Yeah, he always ran in the morning. So no, I was this was in the heat of the day.   Michael Hingson ** 04:16 So huh, we all have our growth issues that we have to deal with so so you but you were raised in Philadelphia, and you went to school there and so on, and what kind of were your interests and so on, growing up   Amber Ba'th ** 04:32 theater, I was really, I mean, I come from A family who has always been in the spotlight. I had two aunts who actually had a touring show titled The sisters, the Stuart sisters. And, you know, I've always been wanting either to dance, to sing, to act. That was just. Just my thing.   Michael Hingson ** 05:02 So they you came by, it pretty honestly. Then exactly anything else. They were actors in the show.   Amber Ba'th ** 05:10 They were, yeah, one was a singer and one was an actress.   Michael Hingson ** 05:12 Yes, oh, cool, yeah. Well, and what was the show about?   Amber Ba'th ** 05:18 Actually, it was about Harriet Tubman, Sojourner, Sojourner, truth. And it was it they actually toured different toward the country and talked about the Underground Railroad and and and how they were able to escape and free other, other slaves.   Michael Hingson ** 05:42 Now that show isn't whether it's your parents or not, but that show is not on now. It's not running.   Amber Ba'th ** 05:50 This was a stage play. This was many, many years   Michael Hingson ** 05:52 ago, right, right, yeah, but they but no one has continued. I would think it would be a very valuable thing to keep around you.   Amber Ba'th ** 05:59 Would think it would be that, you know, the traditional way, but we kind of moved in different directions, you know. So   Michael Hingson ** 06:06 everything closes eventually. The fantastics eventually closed, and that was on for the longest time, yeah? Well, even cats was on for a long time. Oh, yeah. I, I think, although I don't know, but the producers, I think, has closed,   Amber Ba'th ** 06:22 yeah. And I really wanted to see that. I saw the film, but I wanted to see the stage play.   Michael Hingson ** 06:28 Oh, the stage play was much better than the film, I'm sure. You know, I don't know what it is about Matthew Broderick, but he just doesn't sound natural in films. But we went to see it. It was in August of 2001 and we were living in New Jersey, and I was in New York, because that's where we had our offices, on the 78th floor of Tower One of the World Trade Center. And on a Tuesday in 2001 in August, I went over to the theater where the producers was, and I figured, I'll see if I can get tickets. Because my wife, Karen, who was now she's my late wife. She and I were married for 40 years, and then she passed away. But anyway, we I decided that we would try to see it, and I went over to the theater, and I said, so I want to see if I can get two tickets to the producers. And I knew that the media had said all the news media said, you can't get a ticket before March of 2002 and I said, well, but the deal is that my wife is in a wheelchair. Can we by any chance get a matinee to to go see it? And the guy said, I'm sorry, there's just nothing until at least no December. And I said, Well, okay, is there any chance of any other time other than the weekend, or anything that we could get? And he said, Well, just wait a minute. And he goes away, and he comes back and he goes, What are you doing Saturday night? I went, I guess I'll go see the producers, right? And we did. We got to see the original cast, of course, Matthew Broderick, Nathan Lane and Katie Huffman, who played Ulla. And was so wonderful to see that show. We had seen Matthew Broderick and Sarah Jessica Parker in How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying. And then we saw Nathan Lane, and A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. So we had seen them all perform before, but that was so fun to see.   Amber Ba'th ** 08:27 That's awesome, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 08:29 And I think that the film wasn't nearly as good as the play, but   Amber Ba'th ** 08:34 I'm sure it wasn't. So my theater is so dear to me. I I don't know, it's something about the willingness, suspension of disbelief, of breaking out of reality and just, you know, getting away from it all, and just sitting and enjoying yourself, laughing at just sometimes it can be nonsensical. Sometimes it can be sort of reality, you know, whatever, whatever genre you like, and it's nothing like being in the audience when you're when you're having when you're in there as live theater. So it's always a great opportunity to go and see a show, if you are able.   Michael Hingson ** 09:18 Why is it so much more fun, and so many people feel as you do about that, as opposed to going to a movie,   Amber Ba'th ** 09:29 it's, it's a it's a cultural thing for me, and it's immersing yourself in the culture of theater, seeing the different nuances. There's sometimes there's interaction, like, they'll break the fourth wall. Sometimes in that, in every show, is not the same. That's the great thing about theater, because you could go to a show on a Monday and then you go back to see it on a Friday, and it's like, totally different. Yeah, you.   Michael Hingson ** 10:00 It was 93 or 94 whenever they had the big baseball strike. And I went to see Damn Yankees, which has always been one of my favorite movies, because I've always been a ray Walston fan anyway, but went to see it, and during the the and I don't remember who was, who was in it, but at one point, Mr. Applegate, the devil, said, we've got to do something to to disrupt this whole baseball thing and get Joe Hardy back in line with what we want. He said, I got it. Let's organize a baseball strike right there in the middle of the theater. I mean, you know that that had to be ad libbed and just done, but it was so funny to see.   Amber Ba'th ** 10:44 Yeah, you never know what you're gonna get. You know, it's always exciting to see. And   Michael Hingson ** 10:49 I think that the reason that I like theater over over movies is, in part, you're hearing a lot more. Even though there's still audio and electronics, you're still hearing the PA system. You're not hearing the PA system as much. You're really hearing voices exactly you're hearing and seeing so many things. We did go to see Damn Yankees again a few years later, we had moved to New Jersey by that time, and Jerry Lewis was playing Mr. Applegate. Wow. It was the only time he ever did anything on Broadway and and did such a wonderful job. It was incredible, really.   Amber Ba'th ** 11:26 You know, it's the last show that I actually saw. Was Daniel at the sight and sound Oh and oh my goodness, I'm gonna go back. I'm gonna go see Noah. But I was literally sitting on the floor at the end aisle, and when the animals came out, I could actually reach out and touch them if I wanted to. But it was just so beautifully done. It was so amazing. It I can't, I can't even there are words that can't describe the the acting, the set, set design, the sound, everything about that show was amazing.   Michael Hingson ** 12:12 We went to see the Lion King. Karen's brother got us tickets. He was a certified ski guide in France, and he was coming back for the summer with his family, and got all of us tickets. So we went to see Lion King. It was a matinee on a Wednesday, and we got into the theater and the show started. And I knew kind of how it started, with the music and so on, but there's still nothing like hearing it live. But we it live. But we, we, we were listening. And then at one point, of course, the hyenas come in, and they meet with scar but in the play, in the in the musical, they come in from the back of the theater, down the stairs, and Karen, of course, being in a wheelchair, sitting in her chair on the aisle, and the hyenas are growling and they're coming by, and one of them gets right up next to her and goes, you've never seen a lady in a wheelchair jump out of her chair. Oh, it was so funny, but we were talking about it later, and she said, It wasn't long before you got completely used to all these animals, these puppets, and you didn't think of them as anything but the actual animals, wow, which, you know, you you you get in a theater, which you don't get the same in the movies at all. But it was, it was a lot of fun. We actually did get to go backstage afterward and meet some of the actors, and I actually got a chance to look at one of the animals, which was kind of fun.   Amber Ba'th ** 13:47 That's awesome, you know, I'm sorry. The other thing is that when you are in live theater, there's an intermission, and you get to actually mix and mingle with other people, other theater goers. So that's always another thing. I mean, you know, going to the movies. Yeah, you see other people walking back and forth, but they're, you know, rushing for their seat, going to the restroom, getting, you know, and going to the concessions. But there are moments where they're either taking pictures. Sometimes the cast members may come out during intermission, take pictures, and it's more of an interaction with everybody.   Michael Hingson ** 14:24 We went to see God spell once in San Diego, and what we didn't know was there was a guy out there who was coming up to people and wanting to clean their windshields and so on. And what we didn't know until later was that was the actor who played John. He was in character. He was being a servant. It was, it was great. That was so clever. That's awesome. So what did you do for college? Well, I went, as if we don't know,   Amber Ba'th ** 14:55 and I know, right? I went to Howard University. Yeah, and I majored in theater arts administration, uh huh, yeah. So it's the funny thing about that was I always, you know, was in the theater, and my mother told me, I am not paying for you to be an actor. I'm like, Well, I don't know anything else. And this particular year, when I came in, they had just started the theater arts administration program, and I said, Well, I can't do acting. I don't know anything else. This is it. And I really didn't know what that entailed until I got in and I said, Hmm, let's see I get to know the behind the scenes aspects. I can also be a producer to director. I could, you know, basically tell people what to do. That is for me,   Michael Hingson ** 15:50 there you go. So you so you got your degree in that. How come your mother wouldn't pay for you to be an actor?   Amber Ba'th ** 15:59 Because, I mean, back then it was just like, you know, that's something that that's not a real job, no. And even though she did it, they think like that, you know, that's not a real job. You know, it'll never amount to anything. You won't you get, you won't get where you want to be, you know. So I said, you know, I don't know anything else but, but this so, you know, so thank God that that was something that was there when I did come in there.   Michael Hingson ** 16:27 Well, so you, you got your degree in theater arts, production, administration, administration, and so you, you learned how to tell everybody what to do, which sounds a good thing to do, right? And so then what happened after college?   Amber Ba'th ** 16:47 Well, after college, I was I had always been one of those types that said, Oh no, I just got out of college, and maybe two days later I don't have a job, and I'm always worried about that, but I had someone, a classmate, say, You know what, I think you'd be a good fit for this. And what is she talking about? And I don't know if you recall HBO taxicab confessions, uh huh. Okay, so they actually came to DC, and, you know, they chose me. I was chosen to be their production assistant, and I was in the follow vehicle with the cab, you know, all that kind of stuff. And it was like, Okay, this is a lot. This is a lot. They never aired it because a little too risque. But, I mean, they could air it now, but, you know, and they asked me to come to LA, you know, as, and that was a funny thing, because when, before then, I said, oh gosh, I'll never go to LA. It's like Sodom and Gomorrah. And so I wound up going to LA they said, you know, I'll give you, you know, get you a round trip ticket, you know, you can either stay, you can go back, you know, giving me that option. And I took it. I took it, and it was the best thing that I've   Michael Hingson ** 18:14 ever done. What did you do when you got out here?   Amber Ba'th ** 18:17 When I got out there? I, of course, I was working with them for a little bit, and then I decided, You know what, I want to be an actress. This is what this is. I'm here. I am in Hollywood.   Michael Hingson ** 18:29 Mom, not withstanding.   Amber Ba'th ** 18:33 I said, Oh my gosh. And of course, what did I do? I got whatever most actors got was a waitress, a way a serving job, you know, just something enough that I could act flexible enough that I could actually go on auditions and things like that. And I did. I went on auditions. I met a lot of different celebrities. I was in McDonald's had their quote, unquote, adult happy meal that I actually was the poster girl for. I was like, Oh my goodness. And I was in magazines, you know, things like that. And then one day, a friend of mine who graduated with me in theater arts administration, she was actually doing a production, a touring play as the company manager, which is like a tour manager. And she she got another invite to be the company manager on TD Jason's TD Jakes show, and she really wanted to take that so the producer said, Well, you're gonna have to find a replacement. So she called me up and I started working on a show with David Talbert called the fabric of a man who had starred Shamar Moore, and we toured for. Oh, wow. This is interesting, because I didn't really think about this until I started talking. We toured until let's see 910 and I remember because something happened in Houston, Texas, and we had to refund money to all of the audience members, and we're leaving. And what I would do after each show is make sure that the hotel was was taken care of, everything was taken care of. And we went home. Everyone went to their destinations, and we went home. And that morning, I called the hotel, and he told me that different people were still there, and I'm and I just didn't understand why, you know, at the time, because it was really early in the morning in LA and so I'm calling, and I'm like, Well, what's happening? He said, You don't know what's going on. And I said, No. He said, planes are going down everywhere. And I'm like, What are you talking about? I turned on the TV, and that's when I saw the second plane going into the tower. And I just Oh my gosh, this is kind of bringing back some stuff, because I am a woman of faith, and I actually prior to us leaving for seven days, prior to us going to to to Houston. I kept having these dreams about a plane going down in a field, you know, but it would be continuous things. And then the next night, there were planes. There were planes. Looks like two planes colliding. Then there was, I saw people falling out of the sky, and I was like that, this is not making any sense. I didn't know anything. I mean, I was, I didn't know what was going on. And I just kept dreaming these dreams. This is what's happening. Then when we when we were leaving Houston, I had a dream prior to us leaving of the exact shape, color of this plane that went down in the field. And we were, I was at the airport, and I'm looking, and I'm like, okay, that's not the plane that I saw. And so I get on the I get on the plane, and as I'm about to settle in, about to, you know, leave Houston, go to LA, there's a man dressed in Arab garb with, you know, something on his head. And I don't know why I said this, but I just said, I hope he doesn't want to jack the plane. And I went to sleep, and i The dream that I had was that I really saw who was falling out of the sky, but they had on business suits. So when I called the hotel and he told me this, it, it just took over me. You know, I was in shambles. I was like, What? What did I just dream? What happened? Something is not right. I didn't know what was wrong with me at the time. I thought there was something actually wrong with me. Like, why am I dreaming this? What is happening? So that was just something that you happened to ask me the question, and that brought it back. And then I'm thinking about you, you know, so,   Michael Hingson ** 23:44 ah, you know, so many people, many people that I've talked to who didn't at first know what was happening, and they they either turn on their TV, or they were at an airport or something, and they saw the second plane hit the towers and they thought it was a movie. And I've heard so many people say that then, of course, they realized that it wasn't a movie. But you know, a lot of people just thought it was a movie at first, because nobody could imagine it. And you know, that is true. How who would have thought that somebody would deliberately crash airplanes like that into the towers and into the Pentagon? And, of course, now the the one falling out of the sky was that flight 93 in Pennsylvania, Yes, uh huh. And eventually, when you saw the plane, or whatever that was, the plane that you dreamed about, exactly, yeah, uh huh, and that's not surprising. Yeah, there are so many stories of of different things that people experienced that day. We didn't know anything about what was going on until actually we got out of the. Towers, and both towers had collapsed, and my wife was the first one who told us that aircraft had been hijacked and so on. And of course, people say to me all the time, well, of course, you didn't know because you couldn't see it. Excuse me, the last time I checked as I tell people Superman and X ray vision are fiction, and the reality is the airplane hit about 18 floors above us on the other side of the building, no one knew all the way down the stairs, the hundreds of people that I interacted with going down the stairs didn't know what happened. We figured, we figured an airplane hit the building because we were smelling burning jet fuel fumes as we were going down the stairs. So we figured an airplane hit the building. But we had no details. We had no information. Blindness. Didn't have anything to do with it at all. But yeah, it's, it's just one of those things. Well, so you were in, you were still in the business of telling people what to do, which was really good. And how did you eventually, then get into voice acting?   Amber Ba'th ** 26:04 Well, I had always first, it's funny because you people who get into voice acting, oh, I really want to get into voice acting, and they think it's just this one thing that was me. I i always like to do voices. I like to play around with different things. My favorite is the villain. I don't know what it is, but I like to play the villain. But what happened was,   Michael Hingson ** 26:30 you and Cruella de Vil, okay,   Amber Ba'th ** 26:34 it was actually covid. You know, it was. The thing was that I literally was a preschool teacher at the time. And, you know, because after I left, I left LA, I got married and I had kids, and, you know, that kind of thing. So I was back in DC, and so, you know, after that, I covid happened, and I don't want to say it forced me, but it forced me. Nudged me, you know? And I said, you know, this would be great, because different things were happening. Where I was meeting people on on an on an app called clubhouse, and I said, Oh, this is cool. And I've always loved audio dramas too. So I actually about a $40 mic. I bought an eye rig, and I just hooked it up, and I just started talking. And I was in some acting workshops, some improv workshops. I was cast in an audio drama on clubhouse, you know? So it was, I was like, Oh, this is fun, you know, I like talking to myself anyway, so why not? So I created space in my walk in closet, and there you have it.   Michael Hingson ** 28:00 And the rest, as they say, is history. That's right. So what kind of roles have you had, and what kinds of voices and so on, have you created and done?   Amber Ba'th ** 28:11 Well, I I actually, I did the Bible, you know. And whenever I tell the person I narrated the Bible, they're like, the whole Bible, yeah, the whole Bible, technically, that would be 66 books that I narrate, yeah, you know. But yeah, I did the whole Bible for a Bible app, the CSB version for the dwell app, and it was just amazing, because just a little story behind that, I was someone wanted me to narrate their book, and they said that, you know, we want you to narrate it, but we don't want to use your name. We want you to. We want to, we want to use your voice, but we want the narrow, the author to be the narrator. Is this like a ghost Narrator or something, really, that's a   Michael Hingson ** 29:10 little strange, you know? And, oh, we'll give you this   Amber Ba'th ** 29:13 amount of money. Like, okay? And then I actually was praying about it. And, you know, the Lord spoke to me, and he said, I gave you that voice. So I had to decline. And then someone else came to me to narrate a book, and they were taking forever. Oh, it's not ready yet. It's ready. It's not ready yet. And I said, look, okay, I can't do this. I had auditioned for the Bible. And normally it takes, it's like a 2448 hour turnaround time to really know if you if this is for you. Yeah, and I didn't hear anything for about maybe three weeks. And I was like, I guess they found their person. And. I get an email saying that we got good news. You just booked the CSV version. I think I dropped whatever I had in my hand and fell before and, you know, it was just, it was just amazing. So, you know, because what I what happened was I read the Bible every day, and this particular and I read it in a year. So this particular year, I decided to listen to it, and, you know? And I said, You know what, Lord, it would be cool if I could narrate this. And then I had this audition, and I was blessed to read the Bible, and I did it in less than a year.   Michael Hingson ** 30:41 Wow, yeah, it's clearly, you know, it's a long thing. Do you know who Carl Omari is? No. Carl Omari, well, he's probably most known for having recreated the Twilight Zone radio broadcasts. So he, years ago, he took all the Twilight Zone episodes. He got permission from Rod Serling estate, and he created radio broadcasts of them, but he also did the Living Bible, and he got people like Michael York to to be involved in other actors and so on. So I know having, and I own a copy, and I didn't even know about Carl doing it at the time, but it's 98 hours long. It's a long it's a big one.   Amber Ba'th ** 31:22 It's a long one. It is long. But, yeah, that was exciting. Also, I recently just narrated a book called heaven, not by Patricia Robinson, and it's very Orwellian. I should say, you know, I, as I was renarrating it, I'm like, this stuff is happening now. And she wrote it years ago. And I'm talking about, as my children would say, in the 1900s you know. So it was, it was amazing. It was amazing to do that and and I love it, but I do love animated characters. So one of the characters that I never actually thought that I was someone to do impersonations. You know, it's like I got my own voice. You don't need to do anybody else voice. But I was in a workshop for with a good friend, Chris Woodsworth, and he's over in the UK. And he said, Well, what do you like to do? And I said, I like villains. So he thought of a villain, and I never would have thought about Isma from the Emperor's New Groove, and when I was researching, when I was going over the lines, I had to stop myself, because it scared me, because I said, Wait a minute, I really sound like her.   Michael Hingson ** 32:56 All right, really creepy. We need to hear you sound like a villain.   Amber Ba'th ** 33:00 Oh, my goodness, Isma. Okay, so Isma is Cronk. Why did I think that you got this one simple thing? It's like you're a dude, a really, really big stupid monkey named Cronk. And do you want to know something else? I never licked your spinach puffs, never Oh, oh, gosh, oh, goodness. And then, you know, I love, it's the last the laugh that a villain does. I did that, you know, I, I did one. It's called a micro animation called house in the Outlands, and I played a character named sathagawa. And it was one of those, you know, one of those. It was so cool. You know,   Michael Hingson ** 33:49 I've, I've always been impressed with listening to voices and so on, and voice acting, to a large degree, one of the things that I that really made me appreciate a lot of it was, of course, James Earl Jones playing Darth Vader on Star Wars. And then I had the opportunity, while I was in New York once, to go see James Earl Jones and Christopher Plummer in Othello. What an amazing performance, because at the end, when Othello falls on his sword, you know, you know what's going to happen. People have read the play. It's not like Othello is a secret, right, right? The whole crowd just went when he did that. I mean, they were so drawn in by the power of both of their voices and the acting, which is, I've just always loved the fact that people can do that.   Amber Ba'th ** 34:48 Yeah, it's it's amazing. Sometimes I listen to myself and I'm like, That's me.   Michael Hingson ** 34:56 Well, your prejudice. So I. But still, it's just amazing how people can can do so much with with voice collecting old radio shows, as I do, it's really fascinating to to hear all the old shows and the different things that that people do, and the way they can sound so natural doing so many different kinds of voices and so on. And I think we've lost that art, to a degree, at least for a lot of people who try to go off and recreate radio shows, it sounds forced. And we've we've not been able to really train people, although I think one of the things that the radio enthusiast of Puget Sound wants to do is to actually start providing some acting classes to teach people how to use their voices in really doing radio shows, right.   Amber Ba'th ** 35:54 Yeah, yeah, you're so right. I mean, when I was I was actually a a moderator and assistant to a improv workshop coach. I always told students it is so imperative to take acting classes. I mean, I know with voiceovers, it's a lot of it's commercial and things like that, but you have to understand that when you are conveying a message, you know, I don't care how great your voice sounds, if the listener cannot feel, you cannot really get into what you're saying. Or even, let's just say it's a commercial for food. If they can't say, Okay, I gotta go and get some food. Now, you know, then you didn't do your job, right? You know? And I tried to let I said, Listen, it's not just people, you know. They will say, Oh, I'm selling burgers. No, you're not. You're not selling burgers. You know, it's people are hungry. You know, you're telling people this is what they should do because you're hungry, it's mouth watering, yeah, you know, describe what you're eating, and you have to do it in such a way, in such in such a short amount of time, that it just leaves people salivating, you know? And that's, that's what they want, that's what sells the food, the product, or or whatever, whatever it is that you are sharing. So I really tell students, please take acting classes. Yeah, you have to see it, envision it. Sometimes you got to get up and, you know, move around. Sometimes when you're doing auditions, or when you're actually doing a session or performances, you know, and nobody can see you.   Michael Hingson ** 37:50 And it's about the voice. I know that the again, reps the radio enthusiast at Puget Sound does a number of radio recreations. I participated in a couple, but one of the things that I do, and a few of the actors who have been around for a long time, Margaret O'Brien and Beverly Washburn and other people like that, before they will undertake one of the parts that they're they're asked to do in recreating a radio show, they go back and listen to the original show because they want to get into the character.   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

This week the boys are joined by a bevy of friends to make a very regrettable very special episode! Enjoy hearing Dez squirm and Get Wrecked!

Stuart Pollington was born in the United Kingdom and grew up there. After college he began working and along the way he decided he wanted to travel a bit. He worked in Las Vegas for six months and then had the opportunity to work for a year in Australia. He then ended up doing some work in Asia and fell in love with Thailand. For the past 20 years he has lived in Thailand where he helped start several entrepreneurial endeavors and he began two companies which are quite alive and well.   My discussion with Stuart gave us the opportunity to explore his ideas of leadership and entrepreneurial progress including what makes a good entrepreneur. He says, for example, that anyone who wishes to grow and be successful should be willing to ask many questions and always be willing to learn. Stuart's insights are quite valuable and worth your time. I believe you will find most useful Stuart's thoughts and ideas.     About the Guest:   Stuart Pollington is a seasoned entrepreneur and digital strategist who has spent over two decades building businesses across the ASEAN region. Originally from the UK, Stuart relocated to Thailand more than 20 years ago and has since co-founded and led multiple ventures, including Easson Energy and Smart Digital Group. His experience spans digital marketing, AI, and sustainability, but at the heart of it all is his passion for building ideas from the ground up—and helping others do the same.   Throughout his career, Stuart has worn many hats: Sales Director, CTO, Founder, Digital Marketer and growth consultant. He thrives in that messy, unpredictable space where innovation meets real-world execution, often working closely with new businesses to help them launch, grow, and adapt in challenging environments. From Bangkok boardrooms to late-night brainstorms, he's seen firsthand how persistence and curiosity can turn setbacks into springboards.   Stuart's journey hasn't always been smooth—and that's exactly the point. He's a firm believer that failure is an essential part of the learning process. Whether it's a marketing campaign that flopped or a business idea that never got off the ground, each misstep has helped shape his approach and fueled his drive to keep moving forward. Ways to connect with Stuart:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuartpollington/ www.smart-digital.co.th www.smart-traffic.com.au www.evodigital.com.au https://easson.energy     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello, everyone. Once again, it is time for an episode of unstoppable mindset. And today we have a guest, Stuart pullington, who is in Thailand, so that is a little bit of a distance away, but be due to the magic of science and technology, we get to have a real, live, immediate conversation without any delay or anything like that, just because science is a beautiful thing. So Stuart is an entrepreneur. He's been very much involved in helping other people. He's formed companies, but he likes to help other entrepreneurs grow and do the same things that he has been doing. So I am really glad that he consented to be on unstoppable mindset. And Stuart, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And thank you for being here,   Stuart Pollington ** 02:14 Ryan, thank you for the invitation, Michael, I'm looking forward to it.   Michael Hingson ** 02:18 And Stuart is originally from the United Kingdom, and now for the past, what 20 years you've been in Thailand? Yes, over   Stuart Pollington ** 02:27 a bit over 20 years now. So I think I worked out the other day. I'm 47 in a couple of weeks, and I've spent more than half of my life now over in Asia.   Michael Hingson ** 02:39 So why do you like Thailand so much as opposed to being in England?   Stuart Pollington ** 02:46 It's a good question. I mean, don't get me wrong, I do, I do like the UK. And I really, I really like where I came, where I'm from. I'm from the south coast, southeast, a place called Brighton. So, you know, pretty good, popular place in the UK because of where we're situated, by the, you know, on the on the sea, we get a lot of, you know, foreign tourists and students that come over, etc. I mean, Asia. Why? Why Asia? I mean, I originally went traveling. I did six months in America, actually, first in Las Vegas, which was a good experience, and then I did a bit of traveling in America, from the West Coast over to the East Coast. I did a year in Australia, like a working holiday. And then on my way back to the UK, I had a two week stop over in Thailand, and I went down to the beaches, really enjoyed kind of the culture and the way of life here, if you like. And ended up staying for a year the first time. And then after that year, went back to the UK for a little bit and decided that actually, no, I kind of liked the I liked the lifestyle, I liked the people, I liked the culture in Thailand, and decided that was where I wanted to kind of be, and made my way back   Michael Hingson ** 04:13 there you are. Well, I can tell you, Las Vegas isn't anything like it was 20 years ago. It is. It is totally different. It's evolved. It's very expensive today compared to the way it used to be. You can't, for example, go into a hotel and get an inexpensive buffet or anything like that anymore. Drinks at the hum on the on the casino floors are not like they used to be, or any of that. It's it's definitely a much higher profit, higher cost. Kind of a place to go. I've never been that needy to go to Las Vegas and spend a lot of time. I've been there for some meetings, but I've never really spent a lot of time in Las Vegas. It's a fascinating town. Um. One of my favorite barbecue places in New York, opened up a branch in Las Vegas, a place called Virgil's best barbecue in the country. And when they opened the restaurant, the Virgil's restaurant in Las Vegas, my understanding is that the people who opened it for Virgil's had to first spend six months in New York to make sure that they did it exactly the same way. And I'll tell you, the food tastes the same. It's just as good as New York. So that that would draw me to Las Vegas just to go to Virgil's. That's kind of fun. Well, tell us a little about the early Stuart kind of growing up and all that, and what led you to do the kinds of things you do, and so on. But tell us about the early Stuart, if you would.   Stuart Pollington ** 05:47 Yeah, no problem. I mean, was quite sporty, very sporty. When I was younger, used to play a lot of what we call football, which would be soccer over, over your way. So, you know, very big, younger into, like the the team sports and things like that, did well at school, absolutely in the lessons, not so great when it came to kind of exams and things like that. So I, you know, I learned a lot from school, but I don't think especially back then, and I think potentially the same in other countries. I don't think that the the education system was set up to cater for everyone, and obviously that's difficult. I do feel that. I do feel that maybe now people are a bit more aware of how individual, different individuals perform under different circumstances and need different kind of ways to motivate, etc. So, yeah, I mean, I that that was kind of me at school. Did a lot of sport that, you know was good in the lessons, but maybe not so good at the PAM studying, if you like, you know the studying that you need to do for exams where you really have to kind of cram and remember all that knowledge. And I also found with school that it was interesting in the lessons, but I never really felt that there was any kind of, well, we're learning this, but, and this is how you kind of utilize it, or this is the practical use of what we're learning for life, if that, if that makes sense. Yeah. So, you know, like when we were learning, and I was always very good at maths, and I love numbers, and you know, when we were learning things in maths and things like that, I just never felt that it was explained clearly what you would actually use that for. So when you're learning different equations, it wasn't really well explained how you would then utilize that later in life, which I think, for me personally, I think that would have made things more interesting, and would have helped to kind of understand which areas you should focus on. And, you know, maybe more time could have been spent understanding what an individual is good at, and then kind of explaining, well, if you're good at this, or passionate with this, then this is what you could do with it. I think I remember sitting down with our I can't they would have been our advisors at the time, where you sit down and talk about what you want to do after school, and the question was always, what do you want to be? Whereas, you know, for me personally, I think it would have been more useful to understand, what are your passion you know? What are you passionate about? What are you good at? What do you enjoy doing? And then saying, Well, you know, you could actually do this. This is something you could do, you know. So you could take that and you could become, this could be the sort of career you could do, if that makes sense. So anyway, that that was kind of like, like school and everything like that. And then after school, you know, I didn't, I worked for a couple of years. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Funnily enough, there was actually a Toys R Us opening in Brighton in one of the summers she went and got, I got a summer job there at Toys R Us. And I really enjoyed that. Actually, that was my first step into actually doing a bit of sales. I worked on the computers. So we were, you know, selling the computers to people coming in. And when we opened the store, it's a brand new store. You know, it was just when the pay as you go. Mobile phones were kind of just coming out. We had Vodafone analog, but it was the non contract where you could just buy top up cards when they first came out, and I remember we were the first store, because we were a new store. We were the first store to have those phones for sale. And I remember just being really determined to just try and be the first person to just sell the first ever mobile phone within Toys R Us. And I remember I started in the morning, and I think my lunch was at, say, 12, but I missed my lunch, and I think I was up till about one, one or 2pm until finally I managed to find someone who, who was, who me, had that need or wanted the phone, and so I made that first sale for toys r us in the UK with the mobile phone, and that that, in itself, taught me a lot about, you know, not giving up and kind of pushing through and persevering a bit. So yeah, that that was kind of my, my early part. I was always interested in other cultures, though. I was always interested at school, you know, I do projects on Australia, Egypt and things like that. And, you know, in the UK, when you get to about, I think similar, similar to America, but, you know, in the UK, where you either before or after uni, it's quite usual to do, like, a gap year or do a bit of traveling. And I just kind of never got round to it. And I had friends that went and did a gap year or years working holiday in Australia, and I remember when they came back, and I was like, Yeah, you know, that's that's actually what I want to do. So when I was about 22 it was at that point, and I'd worked my way up by them from Toys R Us, I'd already moved around the country, helped them open new stores in different locations in the UK. Was working in their busiest story of in Europe, which was in London. But I decided I wanted to kind of I wanted to go and travel. So I remember talking to my area manager at the time and saying, Look, this is what I want to do. I had a friend who was traveling, and he was meeting up with his sister, and his sister happened to be in Las Vegas, which is how we, we kind of ended up there. And I remember talking to my area manager at the time and saying that I want to leave, I want to go and do this. And I remember him sat down just trying to kind of kind of talk me out of it, because they obviously saw something in me. They wanted me to continue on the path I was doing with them, which was going, you know, towards the management, the leadership kind of roles. And I remember the conversation because I was saying to him, Look, I want, I want to, I want to go and travel. I really want to go. I'm going to go to Las Vegas or to travel America. And his response to me was, well, you know, if you stay here for another x years, you can get to this position, then you can go and have a holiday in America, and you could, you can get a helicopter, you can fly over the Grand Canyon, and kind of really trying to sell me into staying in that path that they wanted me to go on. And I thought about that, and I just said, No, I don't want to just go on a holiday. I really just want to immerse myself, and I just want to go there, and I want to live the experience. And so yeah, I I left that position, went to Las Vegas, ended up staying six months. I did three months. Did a bit in Mexico, came back for another three months. And that's where I met a lot of different people from different countries. And I really kind of got that initial early bug of wanting to go out and seeing a bit more of the world. And it was at that point in my life where I was in between, kind of the end of education, beginning of my business career, I guess, and I had that gap where it was the opportunity to do it. So I did, so yeah, I did that time in America, then back to the UK, then a year in Australia, which was great. And then, yeah, like I said, on the way home, is where I did my stop over. And then just obviously fell in love with Thailand and Asia, and that became my mindset after that year going back to the UK. My mindset was, how do I get back to Thailand? You know, how do I get back to Asia? I also spent a bit of time, about five years in the Philippines as well. So, you know, I like, I like, I like the region, I like the people, I like the kind of way of life, if you like.   Michael Hingson ** 14:23 So when you were working in the Philippines, and then when you got to Thailand, what did you do?   Stuart Pollington ** 14:30 Yeah, so I mean, it all starts with Thailand, really. So I mean, originally, when I first came over, I was, I was teaching and doing, trying to kind of some teaching and voluntary stuff. When I came back, I did a similar thing, and then I got, I get, I wouldn't say lucky, I guess I had an opportunity to work for a company that was, we were, we were basically selling laptop. Laptops in the UK, student laptops, they were refurbished like your IBM or your Dell, and we they would be refurbished and resold normally, to students. And we also, we also used to sell the the laptop batteries. So we would sell like the IBM or Dell laptop batteries, but we sell the OEM, you know, so we would get them direct from, from from China, so like third party batteries, if you like. And back in the day, this is just over 20 years ago, but back then, early days of what we would call digital marketing and online marketing. And you know, our website in the UK, we used to rank, you know, number one for keywords like IBM, refurb, refurbished. IBM, laptop Dell, laptop battery, IBM battery. So we used to rank above the brands, and that was my introduction, if you like, to digital marketing and how it's possible to make money online. And then that kind of just morphed into, well, you know, if we're able to do this for our own business, why can't we do this for other businesses? And that would have been the, you know, the early owners and founders of the of smart digital and smart traffic seeing that opportunity and transitioning from running one business and doing well to helping multiple businesses do well online and that, that was the bit I really enjoy. You know, talking to different business owners in different industries. A lot of what we do is very similar, but then you have slightly different approaches, depending on them, the location and the type of business that people are in.   Michael Hingson ** 16:47 Well, you, you have certainly been been around. You formed your own or you formed countries along the way, like Eastern energy and smart digital group. What were they? Right?   Stuart Pollington ** 16:59 Yeah. So, so yeah, going back to the computer website. Out of that came a company called smart traffic that was put together by the free original founders, guy called Simon, guy called Ben, and a guy called Andy. And so they originally came together and put and had created, if you like, smart traffic. And smart traffic is a digital marketing agency originally started with SEO, the organic, you know, so when someone's searching for something in Google, we help get websites to the top of that page so that people can then click on them, and hopefully they get a lead or a sale, or whatever they're they're trying to do with that, with that traffic. So, yeah, they originally put that together. I being here and on the ground. I then started working within the business. So I was running the student website, if you like, the laptop website, and then got the opportunity from very early on to work within the Digital Marketing Company. I've got a sales background, but I'm also quite technical, and I would say I'm good with numbers, so a little bit analytical as well. So the opportunity came. We had opened an office in the Philippines, and it had been open for about, I think, 18 months or two years, and it was growing quite big, and they wanted someone else to go over there to support Simon, who was one of the founders who opened the office over there. And that's when I got the opportunity. So I was over in Cebu for what, five, five and a half years. At one point, we had an office there with maybe 120 staff, and we did a lot of the technical SEO, and we were delivering campaigns for the UK. So we had a company in the UK. We had one in Australia, and then also locally, within the kind of Thai market. And that was fantastic. I really enjoyed working over in the Philippines again. Culture enjoyed the culture enjoyed the people. Really enjoyed, you know, just getting stuck in and working on different client campaigns. And then eventually that brought me back to Thailand. There was a restructure of the company we, you know, we moved a lot of the a lot of the deliverables around. So I was then brought back to Thailand, which suited me, because I wanted to come back to Thailand at that point. And then I had the opportunity. So the previous owners, they, they created a couple of other businesses in Thailand. They're one that very big one that went really well, called dot property, so they ended up moving back to the UK. Long story short, about maybe 10 years ago, I got the opportunity to take over smart digital in Thailand and smart traffic in Australia, which are both the. Marketing agencies that I'd been helping to run. So I had the opportunity to take those over and assume ownership of those, which was fantastic. And then I've obviously been successfully running those for the last 10 years, both here and and in Australia, we do a lot of SEO. We do a lot of Google ads and social campaigns and web design, and we do a lot of white label. So we we sit in the background for other agencies around the world. So there'll be agencies in, you know, maybe Australia, the UK, America, some in Thailand as well, who are very strong at maybe social or very strong ads, but maybe not as strong on the SEO so we, we just become their SEO team. We'll run and manage the campaigns for them, and then we'll deliver all the reporting with their branding on so that they can then plug that into what they do for their clients and deliver to their clients. So that's all fantastic. I mean, I love, I love digital marketing. I love, I love looking at the data and, you know, working out how things work. And we've been very successful over the years, which then led on to that opportunity that you mentioned and you asked about with Eastern energy. So that was about three and a half years ago, right right around the COVID time, I had a meeting, if you like, in in Bangkok, with a guy called Robert Eason. He was actually on his way to the UK with his family, and kind of got stuck in Bangkok with all the lockdowns, and he was actually on his way to the UK to start Eastern energy there. And Eastern energy is basically, it's an energy monitoring and energy efficiency company. It's basically a UK design solution where we have a hardware technology that we retrofit, which is connects, like to the MDB, and then we have sensors that we place around the location, and for every piece of equipment that we connect to this solution, we can see in real time, second by second, the energy being used. We can then take that data, and we use machine learning and AI to actually work with our clients to identify where their energy wastage is, and then work with them to try and reduce that energy wastage, and that reduces the amount of energy they're using, which reduces their cost, but also, very importantly, reduces the CO two emissions. And so I had this chance encounter with Robert, and I remember, at the time I was we were talking about how this solution worked, and I was like, oh, that's quite interesting. You know, I've I, you know, the the digital marketing is going quite well. Could be time to maybe look at another kind of opportunity, if you like. So I had a look at how it worked. I looked at the kind of ideal clients and what sort of other projects were being delivered by the group around the world. And there were a couple of big name brands over in there. So because it works quite well with qsrs, like quick service restaurant, so like your fast food chains, where you have multiple locations. And it just so happened that one of the in case studies they'd had, I just through my networking, I do a lot of networking with the chambers in Bangkok. Through my networking, I actually happened to know some of the people in the right positions at some of these companies. I'd never had the opportunity to work with them, with the digital marketing because most of them would have their own in house teams, and I just saw it as an opportunity to maybe do something with this here. So I, you know, I said to Robert, give me a week. And then a week later, I said, right, we've got a meeting with this company. It's international fast food brand. They've got 1700 locations in Thailand. So when ended that meeting, very, very positive. And after that meeting, I think Robert and I just I said to Robert, you know, currently you have a plan to go to the UK. Currently you're stuck in Thailand with lockdown, with COVID. We don't know what's going to happen and where everything's going to go. Why don't we do it here? And that's where it originally came from. We decided, let's, you know, let's, let's give that a shot over here. Since then, we've brought in two other partners. There's now four of us, a guy called Gary and a guy called Patrick. And yeah, I mean, it's a bit slower than I thought it would be, but it's in the last. Six months, it's really kind of picked up, which has been fantastic. And for me, it was, for me, it was just two things that made sense. One, I love I love data, and I love the technology. So I love the fact that we're now helping businesses by giving them data that they don't currently have the access to, you know. So when you get, you know, when you when you get your electricity bill, you get it the month after you've used everything, don't you, and it just tells you how much you've got to pay. And there's not really much choice. So what we're doing is giving them the visibility in real time to see where their energy is going and be able to make changes in real time to reduce that energy wastage. And I just thought, Well, look, this is great. It's very techie. It's using, you know, date big data, which I love, using machine learning and AI, which is great. And then I also, you know, I do care about the environment. I got two young kids, so I do care about what's happening around the world. And for me, that was a win, win. You know, I got to, I got to do something with tech that was new and exciting. It's definitely new to this region, even though it's been new to the same sort of technology has been utilized in Europe and America for a number of years. So it felt new, it felt exciting. And it's also good, you know, because we are helping people on the path to net zero. You know, how can we get to net zero? How can we reduce these emissions? So, yeah, I mean that that, for me, is   Stuart Pollington ** 26:40 two different types of, in my opinion, entrepreneurial kind of journeys. One is that the with the digital marketing is, is all it's a story of working my way up to then reach the top, if you like. And whereas Eastern energy is more of a traditional kind of as an entrepreneur, this is, this is an idea. Let's do something with it and get an exciting about it. So two kind of, two different approaches to get to the ownership stage, if you like.   Michael Hingson ** 27:14 I have an interesting story. I appreciate what you're saying. The whole entrepreneurial spirit is so important in what we do, and I wish more people had it. But years ago, one of my first jobs out of college was working for a company in Massachusetts, Kurzweil Computer Products. Ray Kurzweil, who developed, originally a reading machine for the blind, and then later a more commercial version of it. And there's somebody that I had met when I was a student at UC Irvine who ended up being back in Massachusetts working for at that time, a think tank consulting company called Bolt Beranek and Newman. I don't know whether you're familiar with them. They changed their name to, I think it was CLOUD NINE or Planet Nine. But Dick was telling me one day that, and this is when mainframe computers were so large and there was a lot needed to keep them cool and so on. Anyway, he was telling me that one day the gas utility came in because the total heating bill for the six story building was like $10 and they wanted to know how BBN bolt, brannic and Newman was stealing energy and and making it so that they didn't pay very much money. And the the president of the company said, let me show you. They went down to the basement, and there they had two PDP 20s, which are like dual PDP 10s. And they put out a lot of heat, needless to say, to run them. And what BBN did was to take all of that heat and pipe it through the building to keep the building warm in the winter. Rather than paying all the gas bills, they were using something that they already had, the entrepreneurial spirit liveth well. And the bottom line is they, they kept the building well heated. And I don't know what they did in the summer, but during the winter it was, it was pretty cool, and they were able to have $10 gas bills for the six story building, which was kind of fun. No,   Stuart Pollington ** 29:39 that's brilliant, yeah, and that just goes to show me, that is what a large part of this, you know, energy efficiency and things like that, is, it's, it's, it's not about just completely replacing or stopping something. It's about better utilizing it. Isn't it? So they, you know the example you just gave there, with the heat and the wasted energy of being lost in that heat release they've used and utilized, which is brilliant.   Michael Hingson ** 30:12 I a couple of years ago. So my wife passed away in 2022 and we have a furnace and so on here, and we had gas bills that were up in the $200 a month or more up as much as $300 a month in the winter to keep the house at a temperature that we could stand. And two years ago, I thought about, how do we lower that? And I was never a great fan of space heaters, but I decided to try something. We got a couple of space heaters, and we put them out in the living room, and we have ceiling fans. So turned on the space heaters and turned on the ceiling fans, and it did a pretty decent job of keeping the temperature down, such that for most months, I didn't even have to turn the furnace on at all, and our heating bill went down to like $39 a month. Then last year, we got an additional heater that was a little bit larger, and added that to the mix. And again, the bottom line is that if I start all of that early in the morning, our heating bill is like 30 $35 a month. Now I do cheat occasionally, and I'll turn the furnace on for about 45 minutes or 50 minutes in the morning with the ceiling fans to help distribute the warmer air, and I can get the house up to 75 degrees, or almost 30 Celsius, in in a very quick time. And then with the other two space heaters running, I don't have to use furnaces or anything for the rest of the day. So I think this year, the most expensive heating bill we had was like $80 because I did occasionally run the the the heaters or the furnace, and when I was traveling, I would turn the furnace on for the cat a little bit. But the bottom line is, there's so many things that we can do to be creative, if we think about it, to make things run more efficiently and not use as much energy and eliminate a lot of the waste that that we have, and so that that has worked out pretty well, and I have solar on the house. So in the summer, when most people around here are paying four and $500 a month for their electric bills to run the air conditioning. My electric bill year round, is $168 a month, which is   Stuart Pollington ** 32:47 cool. Yeah, no, that's great that you've and you've that is a great example there of kind of how you know our approach to energy efficiency. You know what? What are you currently doing? Is there a more efficient way of doing it? Which is exactly what you found, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 33:07 yeah, and it works really well. So I can't complain it's warming up now. So in fact, we're not I haven't turned the furnace or anything on at all this week. This is the first week it's really been warm at night. In fact, it was 75 degrees Fahrenheit last night. I actually had to turn the air conditioner on and lower the house to 70 degrees, and then turned it off because I don't need to keep it on, and made it easier to sleep. But it's it's amazing, if we think about it, what the things that we can do to make our energy lives more efficient, lower the carbon footprint, and all those kinds of things. So I hear what you're saying, and it's and it's important, I think that we all think about as many ways as we can of doing that. I   Stuart Pollington ** 33:56 think one of the biggest problems with energy is just invisible. You don't, you know, you don't really see it. No. So just, it's just one of those. You just don't really think about it. And again, you only get, you only get told what you've used once you've used it. Yeah, so it's too late by then. And then you go, Oh, you know, you might get an expensive bill. And go, oh, I need to be careful. And then you're careful for a few days or a week, and then again, you don't see it until you get your next bill. Yeah, it's really hard as with anything. I mean, it's a bit like going to the gym. If you go to the gym or the fitness and you just do it sporadically. You don't really have a routine, or, you know, it's gonna be very hard to achieve anything. But then if you, if you set your mind to it, if you maybe get a trainer, and you get a you go onto a better diet, and you follow your routine, you can you will see the results. And it's very similar to what we do. If you've once you've got the data, and you can actually see what. Happening, you can make proper, informed and educated business decisions, and that's what we're trying to do with that is to help businesses make the right decision on the path to net zero   Michael Hingson ** 35:11 well, and you have to develop the mindset as the consumer to bring in a company like yours, or at least think about yourself. What can I do consistently to have a better energy pattern? And I think that's what most people tend not to do a lot, and the result of that is that they pay more than they need to. The power companies like it, the gas companies like it. But still, there are better ways to do it so. So tell me you have been in business and been an entrepreneur for a long time. What is maybe an example of some major crisis or thing that happened to you that you you regard as a failure or a setback that you have had to deal with and that taught you something crucial about business or life.   Stuart Pollington ** 36:08 Brilliant question. I mean, I would, I would guess, over 20 years, there's been a lot of different, sorry, a lot of different things that have happened. I think probably, probably an impactful one would have been. And this taught me a lot about my team, and, you know, their approach and how everyone can pull together. So it would have been, I think it was about, it was when I was in the Philippines. So it would have been about maybe 1212, years ago, we're in Cebu, and there was a big earthquake, and when it hit Cebu, I think it was quite early in the morning. It was like 6am and I remember the whole bed was kind of shaking and rocking, and we, you know, had to get out of the condo. And we're, at the time, living in a place called it Park. And in the Philippines, there's a lot of cool centers, so it's very much 24/7 with an office environment. So as we're coming out of the condo, in literally pants, as in, when I say pants, I mean underwear, because you literally jump out of bed and run. And they were like 1000s, 1000s of all the local Filipinos all all in their normal clothes, because they've all doing the call center work. And I remember just, you know, sitting out on the ground as the aftershocks and whole grounds moving and and, and that that was a very, you know, personal experience. But then on top of that, I've then got over 100 staff in in Cebu at the time that I then have to think about. And, you know, is everyone okay? And then, because of the time it happened, Luckily no one was in the office because it was early, yeah, but it all but it also meant that everything we needed   Michael Hingson ** 38:08 was in the office. Was in the office. Yeah, yeah. So,   Stuart Pollington ** 38:10 so I remember Matt, you know, I remember getting a group of us there, was myself and maybe three or four others from the office, and I remember getting in my car, drove to the office. We were on, I think it's like the eighth or ninth floor, and they didn't want to let us in because of, obviously, the earthquake, and it was a, it was a couple of hours later, and you've got to be obviously, you know, everything needs checking. You still got all the aftershocks, but we managed to let them allow us to run up the fire exit to the office so we could grab, you know, I think we were grabbing, like, 1520, laptops and screens to put in the car so that we could then, and we had to do that of the fire exit, so running up, running down, and that was all into The car so we could then drive to a location where I could get some of my team together remote and to work in this. I think we ended up in some coffee shop we found that was open, and we had the old free G boost kind of the Wi Fi dongles, dongles. And I just remember having to get, like, 1015, of my team, and we're all sat around there in the coffee shop in the morning. You know, there's still the after shops going on the I remember the office building being a mess, and, you know, the tiles had come in and everything, and it was all a bit crazy, but we had to find a way to keep the business running. So we were in the Philippines, we were the support team. We did all of the delivery of the work, but we also worked with the account managers in the UK and Australia as their technical liaisons, if you like. So we. Helped do the strategy. We did everything. And so with us out of action, the whole of Australia and of the whole of the UK team were kind of in a limbo, so we really had to pull together as a team. It taught me a lot about my staff and my team, but it also kind of it taught me about, no matter what does happen, you know, you can find a way through things, you know. So at the time that it happened, it felt like, you know, that's it, what we're going to do, but we had to turn that around and find the way to keep everything going. And yeah, that, that that just taught me a lot of you know, you can't give up. You've got to find a way to kind of push on through. And yeah, we did a fantastic job. Everyone was safe. Sorry. I probably should have said that. You know, no one, none of my team, were affected directly from the from the earthquake, which was great, and we found a way to keep things going so that the business, if you like, didn't fall apart. We,   Michael Hingson ** 41:09 you know, I guess, in our own way, had a similar thing, of course, with September 11, having our office on the 78th floor of Tower One, the difference is that that my staff was out that day working. They weren't going to be in the office. One person was going to be because he had an appointment at Cantor Fitzgerald up on the 96th floor of Tower One for 10 o'clock in the morning, and came in on one of the trains. But just as it arrived at the station tower two was hit, and everything shook, and the engineer said, don't even leave. We're going back out. And they left. But we lost everything in the office that day, and there was, of course, no way to get that. And I realized the next day, and my wife helped me start to work through it, that we had a whole team that had no office, had nothing to go to, so we did a variety of things to help them deal with it. Most of them had their computers because we had laptops by that time, and I had taken my laptop home the previous night and backed up all of my data onto my computer at home, so I was able to work from home, and other people had their computers with them. The reason I didn't have my laptop after September 11 is that I took it in that day to do some work. But needless to say, when we evacuated, it was heavy enough that going down 1463 stairs, 78 floors, that would have been a challenge with the laptop, so we left it, but it worked out. But I hear what you're saying, and the reality is that you got to keep the team going. And even if you can't necessarily do the work that you normally would do you still have to keep everyone's spirits up, and you have to do what needs to be done to keep everybody motivated and be able to function. So I think I learned the same lessons as you and value, of course, not that it all happened, but what I learned from it, because it's so important to be able to persevere and move forward, which, which is something that we don't see nearly as much as sometimes we really should.   Stuart Pollington ** 43:34 Yeah, no, no, definitely. I mean the other thing, and I think you you just mentioned there actually is it. You know, it was also good to see afterwards how everyone kind of pulls together. And, you know, we had a lot of support, not just in the Philippines, but from the UK and the Australia teams. I mean, we had a, we had a bit of an incident, you know, may have seen on the news two weeks ago, I think now, we had an incident in Bangkok where there was a earthquake in Myanmar, and then the all the buildings are shaking in Bangkok, yeah, 7.9 Yeah, that's it. And just, but just to see everyone come together was, was it's just amazing. You know? It's a shame, sometimes it takes something big to happen for people to come together and support each other.   Michael Hingson ** 44:27 We saw so much of that after September 11. For a while, everyone pulled together, everyone was supporting each other. But then over time, people forgot, and we ended up as a as a country, in some ways, being very fractured. Some political decisions were made that shouldn't have been, and that didn't help, but it was unfortunate that after a while, people started to forget, in fact, I went to work for an organization out in California in 2002 in addition to. To taking on a career of public speaking, and in 2008 the president of the organization said, we're changing and eliminating your job because nobody's interested in September 11 anymore, which was just crazy, but those are the kinds of attitudes that some people have, well, yeah, there was so little interest in September 11 anymore that when my first book, thunderdog was published, it became a number one New York Times bestseller. Yeah, there was no interest. It's   Stuart Pollington ** 45:31 just, I hope you sent him a signed copy and said, There you go.   Michael Hingson ** 45:35 Noah was even more fun than that, because this person had been hired in late 2007 and she did such a great job that after about 18 months, the board told her to go away, because she had so demoralized the organization that some of the departments were investigating forming unions, you know. So I didn't need to do anything. Wow, so, you know, but it, it's crazy, the attitudes that people have. Well, you have it is, it's it's really sad. Well, you have done a couple of things that I think are very interesting. You have moved to other countries, and you've also started businesses in unfamiliar markets. What advice? What advice would you give to someone who you learn about who's doing that today, starting a business in an unfamiliar market, or in a foreign country, or someplace where they've never been?   Stuart Pollington ** 46:34 Yeah, again, good questions. I looking back and then so and seeing what I'm doing now, and looking back to when I first came over, I think chambers, I think if I have one, you know, obviously you need to understand the market you want. You need to understand, like the labor laws, the tax laws and, you know, the business laws and things like that. But I think, I think the best thing you could do in any country is to check out the chambers. You know, I'm heavily involved and active with aus Jam, which is the Australian Chamber of Commerce, because of the connection with smart traffic in Australia, in Sydney, the digital marketing. I'm also involved with bcct, the British chamber as British Chamber of Commerce Thailand as well, that there's a very big AmCham American Chamber over here as well. And I just think that the chambers can help a lot. You know, they're good for the networking. Through the networking, you can meet the different types of people you need to know, connections with visas, with, you know, work permits, how to set up the business, recruiting everything. So everything I need, I can actually find within this ecosphere of the chambers. And the chambers in Thailand and Bangkok, specifically, they're very active, lots of regular networking, which brings, you know, introductions, new leads to the business, new connections. And then on top of that, we've had, we've had a lot of support from the British Embassy over in in Thailand, especially with the Eastern energy, because it is tech based, because it is UK Tech, and because it is obviously something that's good for the environment and what everyone's trying to push towards. So I think the two key areas for me, if you are starting a business in an unfamiliar area, is one. Check out the chambers. So obviously the first one you'd look at is your own nationality. But don't stress too much about that. I mean, the chambers over here will welcome anyone from any nationality. So, you know, utilize the chambers because it's through that that you're going to get to speak to people, expats, already running businesses. You'll hear the horror stories. You'll hear the tips. It will save you some time, it will save you some money, and it will save you from making similar mistakes. And then also talk to your embassy and how they can maybe support you. We've had, again, some great support from the British Embassy. They've witnessed demo use. They've helped us with introductions. On the energy efficiency side,   Michael Hingson ** 49:26 one of the things that clearly happens though, with you is that you also spend time establishing relationships with people, so you talk about the chamber and so on. But it also has to be that you've established and developed trusting relationships, so that you are able to learn the things that you learned, and that people are willing to help teach you. And I suspect that they also realize that you would be willing to help others as well.   Stuart Pollington ** 49:55 Yeah, and I think I mean yes, and I'm talking about. And I mentioned, sorry, networking and the changes. But with networking, you know, you don't, you shouldn't go in there with the mindset of, I'm going into networking. I want to make as many sales as I can. Whatever you go into the networking. Is an opportunity to meet people, to learn from people you then some of those people, or most of those people, may not even be the right fit for you, but it's about making those relationships and then helping each other and making introductions. So you know, a lot of what I do with the chambers, I run a lot of webinars. I do workshops where I do free training on digital marketing, on AI, on SEO, on ads, on social. I use that as my lead gen, if you like. So I spend a lot of time doing this educationally and helping people. And then the offshot of that is that some of those will come and talk to me and ask me to how I can help them, or they will recommend me to someone else. And you know, we all know in business, referrals are some of the best leads you can get.   Michael Hingson ** 51:11 Yeah, by any, by any definition, one of, one of the things that I tell every sales person that I've ever hired is you are a student, at least for your first year, don't hesitate to ask questions, because in reality, in general, people are going to be perfectly willing to help you. They're not going to look down on you if you ask questions and legitimately are looking for guidance and information. Again, it's not about you, it's about what you learn, and it's about how you then are able to use that knowledge to help other people, and the people and the individuals who recognize that do really well.   Stuart Pollington ** 51:50 No, exactly, and I don't know about you, Michael, but I like, I like helping people. Yeah, I like, it makes me feel good. And, yeah, that's, that's a big part of it as well. You know   Michael Hingson ** 52:01 it is and, and that's the way it ought to be. It's, that's the other thing that I tell them. I said, once you have learned a great deal, first of all, don't forget that you're always going to be a student. And second of all, don't hesitate to be a teacher and help other people as well.   Speaker 1 ** 52:16 Man, that's really important. Yeah, brilliant.   Michael Hingson ** 52:20 Now you have worked across a number of sectors and market, marketing, tech, sales, energy and so on. How did how do you do that? You You've clearly not necessarily been an expert in those right at the beginning. So how do you learn and grow and adapt to be able to to work in those various industries.   Stuart Pollington ** 52:41 Yeah, I mean, for the marketing, for the marketing, it helps that I really was interested in it. So there was a good there was a good interest. And if you're interested in something, then you get excited about it, and you have the motivation and the willingness to learn and ask the questions, like you said, and then that is where you can take that kind of passion and interest and turn it into something a bit more constructive. It's a bit like I was saying at the beginning. It's the sort of thing I wish they'd done a bit maybe with me at school, was understand what I was good at and what I liked. But yeah, so with the marketing, I mean, very similar to what you've said, I asked questions. I see it just seems to click in my head on how it worked. And it kind of made sense to me. It was just one of these things that clicked, yeah. And so for the marketing, I just found it personally quite interesting, but interesting, but also found it quite easy. It just made sense to me, you know. And similar, you know, using computers and technology, I think it just makes sense. It doesn't to everyone. And other people have their strengths in other areas, but, you know, for me, it made sense. So, you know that that was the easy part. Same with Eastern energy, it's technology. It makes sense. I love it, but at the end of the day, it's all about it's all about people, really business, and you've got your people and your team, and how you motivate them is going to be similar. It's going to be slightly different depending on culture and where you're based, in the type of industry you're in, but also very similar. You know, people want praise, they want constructive feedback. They want to know where they're gonna be in a year or five years. All of that's very similar. So you people within the business, and then your customers are just people as well, aren't they? Well, customers, partners, clients, you know that they are just people. So it's all, it's all, it's all about people, regardless of what we're doing. And because it's all very similar with tech and that, it just, yeah, I don't know. It just makes sense to me. Michael, I mean, it's different. It's funny, because when I do do network and I talk to people, I say, Well, I've got this digital marketing agency here. Work, and then I've got this energy efficiency business here. And the question is always, wow, they sound really different. How did you how did you get into them? But when, again, when I look at it, it's not it's it's tech, it's tech, it's data, it's people. That's how I look at it,   Michael Hingson ** 55:16 right? And a lot of the same rules apply across the board. Yes, there are specific things about each industry that are different, but the basics are the same.   Stuart Pollington ** 55:28 That's it. I, in fact, I that isn't almost, there's almost word for word. What I use when I'm explaining our approach to SEO, I just say, Look, you know, there's, there's three core areas with SEO, it's the tech, the on site, it's the content, and it's the off site signals, or the link building. I said they're the three core areas for Google. They've been the same for, you know, 20 years. Within those areas, there's lots of individual things you need to look at, and that changes a lot. And there's 1000s of things that go into the algorithm, but the basics are the same. Sort your tech, sort the text, sort the tech of it out, the speed of the site and the usability. Make sure your content is good and relevant and authoritative, and then get other sites to recommend you and reference you, you know So, but, yeah, that's very similar to how I try and explain SEO. Yeah, you know all this stuff going on, but you still got the core basics of the same.   Michael Hingson ** 56:29 It is the same as it has always been, absolutely. So what do you do? Or how do you deal with a situation when plans necessarily don't go like you think they should, and and all that. How do you stay motivated?   Stuart Pollington ** 56:45 I mean, it depends, it depends what's gone wrong. But, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm a big believer in, you know, learning from your mistakes and then learning also learning from what went wrong. Because sometimes you don't make a mistake and something goes wrong, but something still goes wrong. I think it helps. It helps to have a good team around you and have a good support team that you can talk to. It's good to be able to work through issues. But, I mean, for me, I think the main thing is, you know, every like you were saying earlier, about asking questions and being a student for a year. You know everything that happens in business, good or bad, is a lesson that should help you be better in the future. So you know the first thing, when something goes wrong, understand what's gone wrong first. Why did it go wrong? How did it go wrong? How do we resolve this, if we need to resolve something for the client or us, and then how do we try and limit that happening in the future? And then what do we learn from that? And how do we make sure we can improve and be better? And I think, you know, it's not always easy when things go wrong, but I think I'm long enough in the tooth now that I understand that, you know, the bad days don't last. There's always a good day around the corner, and it's about, you know, working out how you get through   Michael Hingson ** 58:10 it. And that's the issue, is working it out. And you have to have the tenacity and, well, the interest and the desire to work it out, rather than letting it overwhelm you and beat you down, you learn how to move forward.   Stuart Pollington ** 58:25 Yeah, and that's not easy, is it? I mean, let's be honest. I mean, even, even being when we were younger and kids, you know, things happen. It does. We're just human, aren't we? We have emotions. We have certain feelings. But if you can just deal with that and then constructively and critically look at the problem, you can normally find a solution.   Michael Hingson ** 58:46 Yeah, exactly. What's one piece of advice you wished you had learned earlier in your entrepreneurial career?   Stuart Pollington ** 58:56 Um, I Yeah. I mean, for this one. I think, I think what you said earlier, actually, it got me thinking during wise we've been talking because I was kind of, I would say, don't be afraid to ask questions just based on what we've been talking about. It's changed a little bit because I was going to say, well, you know, one of the things I really wish I'd learned or known earlier was, you know, about the value of mentorship and kind of finding the the right people who can almost show you where you need to be, but you could, you know, but when people hear the word mentor, they think of either or, you know, someone really, yeah, high up who I could I'm too afraid to ask them, or someone who's going to cost you 1000s of dollars a month. So actually, I'm going to change that to don't be afraid to ask questions, because that's basically what you'd expect from a mentor, is to be able to ask. Questions, run ideas. And I think, I think, yeah, I think thinking back now, understanding that the more questions you ask, the more information you have, the better your decisions you can make. And obviously, don't be afraid to learn from other people's experience, because they've been through it, and potentially they could have the right way for you to get through it as well.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:24 And you never know where you're going to find a mentor. Exactly,   Stuart Pollington ** 1:00:28 yeah, no, exactly. I think again, you hear the word mentor, and you think people have this diff, a certain perception of it, but it can be anyone. I mean, you know, if I my mom could be my mentor, for, for, for her great, you know, cooking and things that she would do in her roast dinners. You know that that's kind of a mentor, isn't it making a better roast dinner? So I think, yeah, I think, I   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:54 think, but it all gets back to being willing to ask questions and to listen,   Stuart Pollington ** 1:01:02 and then I would add one more thing. So ask the questions, listen and then take action. And that's where that unstoppable mindset, I think, comes in, because I think people do ask questions, people can listen, but it's the taking action. It's that final step of having the courage to say, I'm going to do this, I'm going to go for   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:23 it. And you may find out that what was advised to you may not be the exact thing that works for you, but if you start working at it, and you start trying it, you will figure out what works   Stuart Pollington ** 1:01:37 exactly. Yeah, no, exactly. That's it, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:41 Well, what a great place to actually end this. We've been doing this now over an hour, and I know, can you believe it? And I have a puppy dog who probably says, If you don't feed me dinner soon, you're going to be my dinner. So I should probably go do that. That's   Stuart Pollington ** 1:01:57 all good. So for me, I'm going to go and get my breakfast coffee. Now it's 7am now, five past seven in the morning.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:03 There you are. Well, this is my day. This has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate you being here, and I want to say to everyone listening and watching, we really appreciate you being here with us as well. Tell others about unstoppable mindset. We really appreciate that. Love to hear your thoughts and get your thoughts, so feel free to email me with any of your ideas and your your conceptions of all of this. Feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I B, e.com, you can also go to our podcast page. There's a contact form there, and my podcast page is www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O N. Love to hear from you. Would really appreciate it if you'll give us a five star rating wherever you're watching or listening to the podcast today, if you know anyone and steward as well for you, if any one of you listening or participating knows anyone else that you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, we'd love to hear from you. We'd love introductions, always looking for more people to tell their stories. So that's what this is really all about. So I really appreciate you all taking the time to be here, and Stuart, especially you. Thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and we really appreciate you taking your time.   Stuart Pollington ** 1:03:26 Thank you, Michael. Thank you everyone. I really enjoyed that. And you know, in the spirit of everything, you know, if, if anyone does have any questions for me, just feel free to reach out. I'm happy to chat.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:39 How do they do that? What's the best way, I   Stuart Pollington ** 1:03:41 think probably the LinkedIn so I think on when you post and share this, you will have the link. I think   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:49 we will. But why don't you go ahead and say your LinkedIn info anyway? Okay, yeah.   Stuart Pollington ** 1:03:53 I mean, the easiest thing to do would just be the Google search for my name on LinkedIn. So Stuart pollington, it's S, T, U, a, r, t, and then P, O, L, L, I N, G, T, O, N, and if you go to LinkedIn, that is my I think I got lucky. I've got the actual LinkedIn URL, LinkedIn, forward slash, I N, forward slash. Stuart pollington, so it should be nice and easy.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:19 Yeah, I think I got that with Michael hingson. I was very fortunate for that as well. Got lucky with   Stuart Pollington ** 1:04:23 that. Yeah, they've got numbers and everything. And I'm like, Yes, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:30 Well, thank you again. This has been a lot of fun, hasn't   Stuart Pollington ** 1:04:33 it? He has. I've really enjoyed it. So thank you for the invitation, Michael.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:42 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

I have mentioned before a program I attend entitled Podapalooza. This quarterly event brings together podcasters, would-be podcasters and people interested in being interviewed by podcasters. This all-day program is quite fun. Each time I go I request interview opportunities to bring people onto Unstoppable Mindset. I never really have a great idea of who I will meet, but everyone I have encountered has proven interesting and intriguing.   This episode we get to meet Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett who I met at Podapalooza 12. I began our episode by asking Laura to tell me a bit about her growing up. We hadn't talked about this before the episode. The first thing she told me was that she was kind of an afterthought child born some 12.5 years after her nearest sibling. Laura grew up curious about many things. She went to University in Calgary. After obtaining her Master's degree she worked for some corporations for a time, but then went back to get her Doctorate in Organization Psychology.   After discussing her life a bit, Dr. Laura and I discussed many subjects including fear, toxic bosses and even something she worked on since around 2005, working remotely. What a visionary Laura was. I like the insights and thoughts Dr. Lovett discusses and I think you will find her thoughts worth hearing.   On top of everything else, Laura is a podcaster. She began her podcast career in 2020. I get to be a guest on her podcast, _Where Work Meets Life_TM, in May of 2025. Be sure to check out her podcast and listen in May to see what we discuss.   Laura is also an author as you will learn. She is working on a book about toxic bosses. This book will be published in January of 2026. She also has written two fiction books that will soon be featured in a television series. She tells us about what is coming.       About the Guest:   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett is an Organizational Psychologist, Keynote Speaker, Business Leader, Author, and Podcast Host. She is a sought-after thought leader on workplace psychology and career development internationally, with 25 years of experience. Dr. Laura is a thought leader on the future of work and understands the intersection of business and people.     Dr. Laura's areas of expertise include leadership, team, and culture development in organizations, remote/hybrid workplace success, toxic leadership, career development, and mental health/burnout. She holds a Ph.D. in Industrial/Organizational Psychology from the University of Calgary, where she is currently an Adjunct Professor.     As a passionate entrepreneur, Dr. Laura has founded several psychology practices in Canada since 2009, including Canada Career Counselling, Synthesis Psychology, and Work EvOHlution™ which was acquired in 2021.  She runs the widely followed podcast _Where Work Meets Life_TM, which began in 2020.  She speaks with global experts on a variety of topics around thriving humans and organizations, and career fulfillment.     In addition to her businesses, she has published two psychological thrillers, Losing Cadence and Finding Sophie. She hopes to both captivate readers and raise awareness on important topics around mental health and domestic violence.  These books are currently being adapted for a television series.  Dr. Laura received a Canadian Women of Inspiration Award as a Global Influencer in 2018. Ways to connect with Dr. Laura:   Email: Connect@drlaura.live   Website: https://drlaura.live/    LinkedIn: @drlaurahambley/    Keynotes: Keynotes & Speaking Engagements   Podcast: Where Work Meets Life™ Podcast   Author: Books   Newsletter: Subscribe to Newsletter   Youtube: @dr.laurawhereworkmeetslife   Facebook: @Dr.Laura.whereworkmeetslife   Instagram: @dr.laura__   Tik Tok: @drlaura__   X: @DrLaura_   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:     Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.     Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, wherever you happen to be, I want to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Mike hingson, and we have, I think, an interesting guest today. She's an organizational psychologist. She is a keynote speaker, and she even does a podcast I met Dr Laura through a function that we've talked about before on this podcast, Pata palooza. We met at pollooza 12. So that goes back to January. I think Dr Laura is an organizational psychologist. As I said, she's a keynote speaker. She runs a podcast. She's written books, and I think you've, if I'm not mistaken, have written two fiction books, among other things, but we'll get to all that. But Laura, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And thank you very much for being here.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 02:12 Well, thank you for having me, Michael. I really think the world of you and admire your spirit, and I'm just honored to be here speaking with you today. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:22 as I tell people when they come on the podcast, we do have one hard and fast rule, and that is, you're supposed to have fun. So if you can't have fun, forget about   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 02:30 it. Okay, alright, I'm willing to There   Michael Hingson ** 02:34 you go see you gotta have a little bit of fun. Well, why don't we start as I love to do with a lot of folks tell us kind of about the early Laura, growing up and all that, and kind of how you got where you are, if you will. Oh, my goodness, I know that opens up a lot of options.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 02:52 I was an afterthought child. I was the sixth child of a Catholic mother who had five children in a row, and had me 12 years later, unplanned, same parents, but all my siblings are 12 to 19 years older than me, so I was caught between generations. I always wanted to be older than I was, and I felt, you know, I was almost missing out on the things that were going on before me. But then I had all these nieces and nephews that came into the world where I was the leader of the pack. So my niece, who's next in line to me, is only three years younger, so it just it makes for an interesting dynamic growing up where you're the baby but you're also the leader. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 03:39 lot of advantages there, though I would think,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 03:42 Oh yeah, it taught me a lot about leadership. It taught me about followership. It taught me about life and learning the lessons from my older siblings of what you know, they were going through and what I wanted to be like when I grew up.   Michael Hingson ** 03:58 So, so what kind of things did you learn from all of that? And you know, what did, what did they teach you, and what did they think of you, all of your older siblings? Oh, they loved me. I was, I bet they were. Yeah, you were the baby sister.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 04:13 But I should add my mom was mentally ill, so her mental illness got worse after having me, I think, and I know this about postpartum, as you get older and postpartum hits, it can get worse later on and and she suffered with a lot of mental health challenges, and I would say that that was the most challenging part of growing up for me.   Michael Hingson ** 04:42 Did she ever get over that? Or?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 04:45 No, we just, I mean, it had its ups and downs. So when times were good, she was great, she was generous, she was loving. She was a provider, a caretaker. She had stayed at home her whole life, so she was the stay at home mom, where you'd come home from school. And there'd be hot, baked cookies and stuff, you know, she would really nurture that way. But then when she had her lows, because it was almost a bipolar situation, I would, I would say it was undiagnosed. I mean, we never got a formal diagnosis, but she had more than one psychotic break that ended her in the hospital. But I would say when she was down, she would, you know, run away for a few days and stay in another city, or have a complete meltdown and become really angry and aggressive. And, I mean, it was really unpredictable. And my father was just like a rock, just really stable and a loving influence and an entrepreneur like I am, so that, you know, he really helped balance things out, but it was hard on him as well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:48 I'll bet. Yeah, that's never easy. Is she still with us, or is she passed?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 05:53 No, she got dementia and she passed. The dementia was about 12 years of, you know, turning into a baby. It's so sad that over 12 years, we just she lost her mind completely, and she died in 2021 and it was hard. I mean, I felt like, oh, man, you know, that was hard. I you know, as much as it was difficult with her and the dementia was difficult. I mean, she was my mother, and, yeah, it was a big loss for me. And I lost my father at age 21 and that was really hard. It was a very sudden with an aneurysm. And so that was in 1997 so I've been a long time without parents in my life.   Michael Hingson ** 06:30 Wow. Well, I know what you mean. My father, in this is his opinion, contracted some sort of a spore in Africa during World War Two, and it manifested itself by him losing, I think it was white blood cells later in his life, and had to have regular transfusions. And eventually he passed in 1984 and my belief is, although they classified it as congestive heart failure, he had enough other diseases or things that happened to him in the couple of years before he passed. I think it was actually HIV that he died from, because at that time, they still didn't understand about tainted blood, right? And so he got transfusions that probably were blood that that was a problem, although, you know, I can't prove that, and don't know it, but that's just kind of my opinion.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 07:34 Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that, Michael, that is so, so sad.   Michael Hingson ** 07:38 Yeah. And then my mom was a smoker most of her life, and she fell in 1987 and broke her hip, and they discovered that she also had some some cancer. But anyway, while she was in the hospital recovering from the broken hip, they were going to do some surgery to deal with the cancer, but she ended up having a stroke and a heart attack, and she passed away. So Oh, my God. I lost my mom in 1987   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 08:04 and you know, you were young. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 08:08 I was, I was 37 when she died. So still, I missed them both, even today, but I I had them for a while, and then my brother, I had until 2015 and then he passed from cancer. So it happens, and I got married in 1982 to my wife, Karen, who was in a wheelchair her whole life, and she passed in 2022 so we were married 40 years. So lots of memories. And as I love to tell people all the time, I got to continue to be a good kid, because I'm being monitored from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I know I'm going to hear about it. So,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 08:49 you know, well, that's a beautiful, long marriage that the two of you had   Michael Hingson ** 08:55 was and lots of memories, which is the important things. And I was blessed that with September 11 and so on, and having written thunder dog, the original book that I wrote about the World Trade Center and my life, it was published in 2011 and I was even reading part of it again today, because I spoke at a book club this morning, it just brings back lots of wonderful memories with Karen, and I just can't in any way argue with the fact that we did have a great 40 years. So no regrets.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 09:26 Wow, 40 years.   Michael Hingson ** 09:30 Yeah. So, you know, it worked out well and so very happy. And I know that, as I said, I'm being monitored, so I I don't even chase the girls. I'm a good kid. Chris, I would point out none of them have chased me either. So, you know,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 09:49 I love your humor. It's so awesome. So we gotta laugh, Mark, because the world's really tricky right now. Oh gosh, isn't it? It's very tricky. And I'd love to talk. About that today a bit, because I'm just having a lot of thoughts about it and a lot of messages I want to get across being well, you are well psychologist and a thought leader and very spiritual and just trying to make a difference, because it's very tricky.   Michael Hingson ** 10:16 So how did you get into psychology and all that. So you grew up, obviously, you went to college and tell me about that and how you ended up getting into the whole issue of psychology and the things that you do. Well,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 10:30 I think being the youngest, I was always curious about human dynamics in my family and the siblings and all the dynamics that were going on, and I was an observer of all of that. And then with my mother and just trying to understand the human psyche and the human condition. And I was a natural born helper. I always wanted to help people, empathetic, very sensitive kid, highly sensitive person. So then when I went into psycho to university. We University. We call it up here for an undergrad degree, I actually didn't know what I wanted to do. I was a musician as well. I was teaching music throughout high school, flute and piano. I had a studio and a lot of students. And thought, well, maybe do I want to do a music degree? Or, Oh, maybe I should go into the family business of water treatment and water filtration that my father started for cities, and go in and do that and get a chemical engineering degree. Not really interested in that, though, no. And then just kind of stumbled my way through first year. And then I was really lost. And then I came across career counseling. And I thought, Okay, this is going to help me. And it did. And psychology lit up like a light bulb. I had taken the intro to psych course, which is more of a hodgepodge mix of topics. I'm like, yeah, and then, but when I looked at the second year courses in the third year and personality and abnormal psych and clinical psych and all of that. I thought, Oh, I found my place. This is juicy. This is interesting. And I want to help people. Is   Michael Hingson ** 12:09 this to say you fit right in when you were studying Abnormal Psychology? Just checking,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 12:14 yeah, probably okay. I actually didn't go down the clinical psych route, which is where it's the clinical psych and the psychiatrists that tackle more of the personality disorders. So I went into counseling psych, which is the worried well. We call it the worried well. So people like you and I who are going through life, experiencing the various curve balls that life has to offer, and I know you've been through more than your fair share, but it's helping people get through the curve balls. And I specialized in career, I ended up saying people spend most of their waking lives, you know, working or thinking about work as part of their identity. So I specialized in career development psychology in my master's degree.   Michael Hingson ** 13:01 Yeah, well, that's, that's certainly, probably was easier than flute and piano. You couldn't do both of those at the same time.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 13:07 I ended up having to, yeah, it became too much. I tried to for a while.   Michael Hingson ** 13:13 Yeah, you can play the flute or the piano, but kind of hard to do both at the same time. Oh,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 13:18 at the same time, yeah, unless you play with your toes, which I've seen people actually people do that, yeah, do Yeah. There's this one speaker in our national speakers group, and he he does a lot with his toes, like I remember him playing the drums with his toes at his last keynote. So I was just amazed. So horn with no arms and does everything with his feet. So I bet he could do some piano too. There you go.   Michael Hingson ** 13:49 But then, of course, having no arms and he would also have a problem doing piano at the same time. But, you know, that's okay, but still, so you went into to psychology, which I find is a is a fascinating subject. Anyway, my interest was always in the physical sciences, so I got my master's degree in physics, although I did take a couple of psychology courses, and I enjoyed it. I remember the basic intro to psych, which was a lot of fun, and she's had a real hodgepodge, but still it was fascinating. Because I always was interested in why people behave the way they do, and how people behave the way they do, which is probably why I didn't go into theoretical physics, in a sense. But still it was and is very interesting to see how people behave, but you went off and got your masters, and then you also got a PhD along the line, huh?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 14:47 Yeah, that was interesting. I did the Masters, and then I always did things a little differently. Michael, so all of my peers went on to become registered psychologists, which, which means you have. To go through a registration process, and instead, I got pulled into a.com company. We called them dot coms at the time, because in 1999 when I started with a.com It was a big thing. I mean, it was exciting, right? It was and it was a career development related.com that had a head office in New York City, and I ended up leading a team here in Calgary, and we were creating these technologies around helping people assess their passions, their interests, their skills, and then link to careers. We had about 900 careers in our database, and then linking people to educational programs to get them towards those careers. So I remember coming up a lot of times to Rutgers University and places like that, and going to New York City and dealing with that whole arena. So I was, you know, from a young age, I'd say I was too young to rent a car when I flew there, but I had a team of about 15 people that I oversaw, and it was great experience for me at an early age of, okay, you know, there's a lot I'm learning a lot here, because I really wasn't trained in Business and Management at that time, right?   Michael Hingson ** 16:17 But you But you did it.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 16:20 I did it, yeah, I did it. And then I ended up working for another consulting firm that brought me into a whole bunch of organizations working on their competency models. So I did a lot of time in the Silicon Valley, working in different companies like Cisco, and I was just in this whole elaborate web of Okay. Organizations are quite interesting. They're almost like families, because they have a lot of dynamics there. It's interesting. And you can make a difference, and you can help the organization, the people in the workplace, you know, grow and thrive and develop. And I'm okay, you know, this is interesting, too. I like this. And then at that time, I knew I wanted to do a doctorate, and I discovered that organizational Psych was what I wanted to do, because it's the perfect blend of business and psychology. Because I'm a serial entrepreneur, by the way, so entrepreneurship, psychology, business, kind of the best of both worlds. Okay, I'm going to do that, so that's what I did.   Michael Hingson ** 17:24 That certainly is kind of cool. So when did you end up getting your doctorate?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 17:28 I finished that in 2005   Michael Hingson ** 17:31 okay, were you working while you were doing that? Or did you just go back to school full   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 17:36 time? I had to go back to school because the program was very heavy. It was a program where you could not work full time during it. I still worked part time during it. I was working hard because I was registering as a psychologist at the same time, I knew I wanted to register and become a psychologist, and I knew I wanted to get that doctorate, and there were times when I almost stepped away, especially at the beginning of it, because when you're out in the real world, and then you go back into academia, it's just such a narrow How do I explain this? How does this, how is this relevant? You know, all these journal articles and this really esoteric, granular research on some little itty, itty bitty thing. And I just really struggled. But then I said, So I met with someone I remember, and she she said, Laura, it's like a car. When you buy a car, you can choose your own car seats and color, and you know, the bells and whistles of your car, and you can do that for the doctorate. And I said, Okay, I'm going to make the doctorate mine, and I'm going to specialize in a topic that I can see being a topic that the world of work will face in the future. So I specialized in remote leadership, and how you lead a team when they're not working in the same office, and how you lead and inspire people who are working from home. And that whole notion of distributed work, which ended up becoming a hot topic in the pandemic. I was, I was 20 years, 15 years ahead of the game. Yeah. Well, that,   Michael Hingson ** 19:09 of course, brings up the question of the whole issue of remote work and stuff during the pandemic and afterward. What do you what do you think has been the benefit of the whole concept of remote work. What did people learn because of the pandemic, and are they forgetting it, or are they still remembering it and allowing people to to work at home? And I ask that because I know in this country, our illustrious president is demanding that everybody go back to work, and a lot of companies are buying into that as well. And my thought has always been, why should we worry about where a person works, whether it's remote or in an actual office, so long as they get the work? Done, but that seems to, politically not be the way what people want to think of it today.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 20:06 Yeah, it's, I mean, I have a lot to say on it, and I have years and years of data and research that supports the notion that it's not a one size fits all, and a blend tends to be the best answer. So if you want to preserve the culture and the collaboration, but yet you want to have people have the flexibility and autonomy and such, which is the best of both worlds. Because you're running a workplace, you're not running a daycare where you need to babysit people, and if you need to babysit people, you're hiring the wrong people. So I would say I'm a biggest fan of hybrid. I think remote works in some context, I think bringing everyone back full time to an office is very, very old school command and control, leadership, old school command and control will not work. You know, when you're trying to retain talent, when it's an employer's market, yes, you'll get away with it. But when it goes back to an employee's market. Watch out, because your generation Z's are going to be leaving in droves to the companies that offer flexibility and autonomy, same with some of your millennials, for sure, and even my generation X. I mean, we really value, you know, a lot of us want to have hybrids and want to be trusted and not be in a car for 10 to 20 hours a week commuting? Yeah? So,   Michael Hingson ** 21:27 yeah, I know I hear you, and from the baby boomer era, you know, I I think there's value in being in an office that is, I think that having time to interact and know colleagues and so on is important. But that doesn't mean that you have to do it every day, all day. I know many times well. I worked for a company for eight years. The last year was in New York because they wanted me to go to New York City and open an office for them, but I went to the office every day, and I was actually the first person in the office, because I was selling to the east coast from the west coast. So I opened the office and was on the phone by 6am in the morning, Pacific Time, and I know that I got so much more done in the first two to three hours, while everyone else was slowly filtering in, and then we got diverted by one thing or another, and people would gossip and so on. Although I still tried to do a lot of work, nevertheless, it got to be a little bit more of a challenge to get as much done, because now everybody was in and they wanted to visit, or whatever the case happens to be, and I think there's value in visiting, but I think from a working standpoint, if I'd been able to do that at home, at least part of the time, probably even more would have been accomplished. But I think there's value also in spending some time in the office, because people do need to learn to interact and know and trust each other, and you're not going to learn to trust if you don't get to know the other people.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 23:08 Yeah, totally. I agree with you 100% and I know from it. I on my own podcast I had the founder of four day work week global, the four day work movement. I did four episodes on that topic, and yeah, people are not productive eight hours a day. I'll tell you that. Yeah, yeah. So just because you're bringing them into an office and forcing them to come in, you're not gonna it doesn't necessarily mean more productivity. There's so much that goes into productivity, apart from presenteeism, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 23:45 yeah, I hear what you're saying, and I think there's, there's merit in that. I think that even when you're working at home, there are rules, and there you're still expected to do work, but there's, I think, room for both. And I think that the pandemic taught us that, but I'm wondering if we're forgetting it.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 24:06 Oh yeah, that's the human condition. We forget, right? We, we forget. We it's almost I envision an icy ski slope. I'm a skier, you know, being up here in Canada and the Rocky Mountains, but it's a ski slope, and you walk up a few steps, and then you slide back so easily, because it's icy, right? Like you gotta just be aware that we slide back easily. We need to be intentional and stay on top of the why behind certain decisions, because the pendulum swings back so far so easily. And I mean, women's issues are one of those things we can slide back so quickly. After like, 100 years of women fighting for their rights, we can end up losing that very, very quickly in society. That's just one of many examples I know all the D, E and I stuff that's going on, and I. I mean, it's just heartbreaking, the extent of that pendulum slapping back the other way, so hard when we need to have a balance, and you know, the right balance, because the answer is never black and white, black or white, the answer is always some shade of gray.   Michael Hingson ** 25:20 How do we get people to not backslide? And I know that's a really tough question, and maybe there's no there, there very well may not really be an easy answer to that, but I'm just curious what your thoughts are.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 25:37 That's a great question. Michael, I would envision almost ski poles or hiking poles. It's being grounded into the earth. It's being grounded into what are the roots of my values? What are my the values that we hold dear as human beings and as society, and sticking to those values, and, you know, pushing in to the earth to hold those values and stand up for those values, which I know is easier said than done in certain climates and certain contexts. And I mean, but I think it's really important to stand strong for what our values   Michael Hingson ** 26:20 are, yeah, I think that's really it. It comes down to values and principles. I know the late president, Jimmy Carter once said that we must adjust to changing times while holding to unwavering principles. And it seems to me you were talking about this being a tricky world. I thought that was an interesting way to express it. But I'm wondering if we're seeing all too many people not even holding to the unwavering principles, the sacrificing principles for political expediency and other things, yeah,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 26:53 yes, exactly. And we know about values that sometimes values clash, right? So you might have a value that you want to have a lot of money and be financially, you know, successful, yet you have the value of work life balance and you want a lot of time off and and sometimes those values can clash, and sometimes we need to make decisions in our lives about what value takes precedence at this time in our life. But I think what you're right is that there's a lot of fear out there right now, and when the fear happens, you can lose sight of why those values are important to you for more of a shorter term, quick gain to get rid of the fear, because fear is uncertain and painful for humans.   Michael Hingson ** 27:44 Well, I wrote live like a guide dog, which is the latest book that was, that was published in August of last year, and it's all about learning to control fear, really. And the reality is, and what I say in the book, essentially is, look, fear is with us. I'm not going to say you shouldn't be afraid and that you can live without fear, but what you can do is learn to control fear, and you have the choice of learning how you deal with fear and what you allow fear to do to you. And so, for example, in my case, on September 11, that fear was a very powerful tool to help keep me focused going down the stairs and dealing with the whole day. And I think that's really the the issue is that fear is is something that that all too many people just have, and they let it overwhelm them, or, as I put it, blind them, and the result of that is that they can't make decisions, they can't move on. And so many things are happening in our world today that are fomenting that fear, and we're not learning how to deal with it, which is so unfortunate.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 29:02 Yeah, you're right. And I back to your World Trade Center. So you were on, was it 778? 78 oh, my god, yeah. So to me, that must have been the scariest moment of your life.   Michael Hingson ** 29:17 I'm missing in a in a sense, no only until later, because none of us knew what was happening when the plane hit the building, which it did on the other side of the building from me and 1000s of others, and it hit above where we were. So going down the stairs, none of us knew what happened, because nobody saw it. And as I point out, Superman and X ray vision are fiction. So the reality is, it had nothing to do with blindness. The fact is, none of us knew going down the stairs. We figured out a plane hit the building because we smelled something that I eventually identified as burning jet fuel fumes, because I smell it every time I went to an airport. But we didn't know what happened. And. And and in a sense, that probably was a good thing for most people. Frankly, I would rather have known, and I can, I can say this, thinking about it a lot as I do, I would rather have known what happened, because it would have affected perhaps some of the decisions that I made later. If I had known that the buildings had been struck and there was a likelihood that they would collapse. I also know that I wouldn't have panicked, but I like information, and it's something that I use as a tool. But the fact is that we didn't know that. And so in a sense, although we were certainly worried about what was going on, and we knew that there was fire above us, we didn't know what it was all about.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 30:41 Wow. And I would say, so glad you got out of there. I Yeah, what a horrific experience. I was up there the year before it happened. And I think being up there, you can just sense the the height of it and the extent of it, and then seeing ground zero after and then going there with my son last June and seeing the new world trade, it was just really, I really resonate with your or not resonate, but admire your experience that you got out of there the way you did, and thank goodness you're still in this world. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 31:17 it's a weird experience having been back, also now, going through the museum and being up in the new tower, trying to equate where I was on September 11 and where things were with what it became when it was all rebuilt. There's no easy reference point, although I did some of the traveling around the area with someone who knew what the World Trade Center was like before September 11. And so they were able to say, Okay, you're standing in such and such a place, so you're standing right below where Tower One was. And then I could kind of put some reference points to it, but it was totally different. Needless to say,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 32:05 Yeah, no kidding, but I think the fear that you go through during a disaster, right, is immediate like so the fight flight response is activated immediately, and you're, you're put into this almost state of flow. I call it a state where you time just is irrelevant. You're just putting one foot ahead of the other, right, right, right? Whereas the fear that society is going through right now, I think, is a projecting out into the future fear. It's not surviving this moment. It's more about I want to make sure I have enough money in the future, and I want to make sure I have safety in the future, or whatever it is, and you're projecting out, and you're living in the future, and you're worrying about the future, you're not living in the present, and it makes people kind of go crazy in the end, with anxiety, because we're not meant to be constantly worried about the Future. The only thing we can control is today and what we put into place for a better tomorrow, but fearing tomorrow and living in anxiety is so unhealthy for the human spirit,   Michael Hingson ** 33:13 and yet that's what people do, and it's one of the things we talk about and live like a guide dog. Worry about what you can control and don't worry about the rest. And you know, we spend so much time dealing with what if, what if this happens? What if that happens? And all that does, really is create fear in us, rather than us learning, okay, I don't really have control over that. I can be worried about the amount of money I have, but the real question is, what am I going to do about it today? And I know one of the lessons I really learned from my wife, Karen, we had some times when when we had significant debt for a variety of reasons, but like over the last few years of her life, we had enough of an income from speaking and the other things that I was doing that she worked really hard to pay down credit card bills that we had. And when she passed, most all of that was accomplished, and I was, I don't know whether she thought about it. She probably did, although she never got to the point of being able to deal with it, but one of the things that I quickly did was set up with every credit card company that we use paying off each bill each month, so we don't accrue credit, and so every credit card gets paid off, because now the expenses are pretty predictable, and so we won't be in that situation as long as I continue to allow things to get paid off every month and things like that. But she was the one that that put all that in motion, and it was something she took very, very seriously, trying to make sure. It. She brought everything down. She didn't really worry so much about the future. Is, what can I do today? And what is it that my goal is? Well, my goal is to get the cards paid off. I can do this much today and the next month. I can do this much today, which, which I thought was a great way and a very positive way to look at it. She was very methodical, but she wasn't panicky.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 35:24 Mm, hmm. No, I like that, because panic gets us nowhere. It just It ruins today and it doesn't help tomorrow, right? Same with regret, regret you can't undo yesterday, and living in regret, guilt, living in the past is just an unhealthy place to be as well, unless we're just taking the learnings and the nuggets from the past. That's the only reason we need the past is to learn from it. You   Michael Hingson ** 35:52 have to learn from it and then let it go, because it's not going to do any good to continue to dwell on it.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 35:57 Yeah, exactly.   Michael Hingson ** 36:00 Well, so you, you, you see so many things happening in this world. How do we deal with all of it, with all the trickiness and things that you're talking about?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 36:10 Do you like that word, tricky? I like it. That's a weird word.   Michael Hingson ** 36:14 Well, I think it's, it's a different word, but I like it, it, it's a word that I think, personally, becomes non confrontive, but accurate in its descriptions. It is tricky, but, you know, we can, we can describe things in so many ways, but it's better to do it in a way that isn't judgmental, because that evokes attitudes that we don't need to have.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 36:38 Yeah, if I use the word scary or terrible, or, I think those words are, yeah, just more anxiety provoking. Tricky can be tricky. Can be bad, tricky can be a challenge,   Michael Hingson ** 36:52 right? Like a puppy, unpredictable, or, you know, so many things, but it isn't, it isn't such a bad thing. I like that.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 37:03 How do we navigate a tricky world? Well, we we need to focus on today. We need to focus on the things that we can control today, physically, mentally, emotionally, socially and spiritually, the five different arenas of our life and on any given day, we need to be paying attention to those arenas of our life and how are they doing. Are we healthy physically? Are we getting around and moving our bodies? Are we listening to our bodies and our bodies needs? Are we putting food into our bodies, and are we watching what we drink and consume that could be harming our bodies, and how does it make us feel? And are we getting enough sleep? I think sleep is a huge issue for a lot of people in these anxiety provoking times.   Michael Hingson ** 37:56 Well, I think, I think that's very accurate. The question is, how do we learn to do that? How do we teach ourselves?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 38:07 How do we learn to do all that   Michael Hingson ** 38:09 stuff? How do we how do we learn to deal with the things that come up, rather than letting them all threaten us and scare us?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 38:20 Oh, that's a big question. I think that well, the whole the five spheres, right? So if you're taking care of your physical health and you're making that a priority, and some people really struggle with that, and they need a buddy system, or they need professional helpers, right, like a coach or a trainer or a psychologist like me, or whatever it is that they need the extra supports in place, but the physical super important, the making sure that we are socially healthy and connectedness is more important than ever. Feeling connected to our tribe, whatever that is, our close friends. You know, whether we have family that we would consider friends, right? Who in our team is helpful to us and trusted allies, and if we can have the fingers of one hand with close people that we trust in our lives, that's that's great, right? It doesn't have to be 100 people, right? It can be a handful, over your lifetime of true allies to walk through this world together.   Michael Hingson ** 39:26 One of the things that I've talked about it a bit on this podcast, but I I love the the concept that I think I've come up with is I used to always say I'm my own worst critic, and I said that because I love to record, and I learned the value of recording speeches, even going back to when I worked at campus radio station at kuci in Irvine campus radio station, I would listen to my show, and I kind of forced all the On Air personalities. 90s to listen to their own shows by arranging for their shows to be recorded, because they wouldn't do it themselves. And then I sent recordings home with them and said, You've got to listen to this. You will be better for it. And they resisted it and resisted it, but when they did it, it was amazing how much they improved. But I as I recorded my talks, becoming a public speaker, and working through it, I kept saying, I record them because I'm my own worst critic. I'm going to pick on me harder than anyone else can. And it was only in the last couple of years because I heard a comment in something that I that I read actually, that said the only person who can really teach you anything is you. Other people can present information, they can give you data, but you are really the only one who can truly teach you. And I realized that it was better to say I'm my own best teacher than my own worst critic, because it changes the whole direction of my thought, but it also drops a lot of the fear of listening or doing the thing that I was my own worst critic   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 41:10 about. I love that, Michael. I think that's genius. I'm my own best teacher, not my own worst critic,   Michael Hingson ** 41:19 right? It's it's positive, it's also true, and it puts a whole different spin on it, because one of the things that we talk about and live like a guide dog a lot is that ultimately, and all the things that you say are very true, but ultimately, each of us has to take the time to synthesize and think about the challenges that we face, the problems that we faced. What happened today that didn't work well, and I don't use the word fail, because I think that also doesn't help the process. But rather, we expected something to happen. It didn't. It didn't go well. What do we do about it? And that ultimately, taking time at the end of every day, for example, to do self analysis helps a lot, and the result of that is that we learn, and we learn to listen to our own inner mind to help us with that   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 42:17 exactly, I think that self insight is missing in a lot of us, we're not taking the time to be still and to listen to the voice within and to listen to what we are thinking and feeling internally, because we're go, go, go, go, go, and then when we're sitting still, you know what we're doing, we're on our phones,   Michael Hingson ** 42:41 and That's why I say at the end of the day, when you're getting ready, you're in bed, you're falling asleep. Take the time. It doesn't take a long time to get your mind going down that road. And then, of course, a lot happens when you're asleep, because you think about it   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 43:01 exactly. And you know, I've got to say, however spirituality is defined, I think that that is a key element in conquering this level of anxiety in society. The anxiety in society needs to be conquered by a feeling of greater meaning and purpose and connectedness in the human race, because we're all one race, the human race, in the end of the day, and all these divisions and silos and what's happening with our great you know, next door neighbors to each other, the US and Canada. It's the way that Canada is being treated is not not good. It's not the way you would treat a neighbor and a beloved neighbor that's there for you. In the end of the day, there's fires in California. We're sending our best fire crews over. You know, World War One, where my grandpa thought and Vimy Ridge, Americans were struggling. British could not take Vimy. It was the Canadians that came and, you know, got Vimy and conquered the horrific situation there. But in the end, we're all allies, and we're all in it together. And it's a tricky, tricky world,   Michael Hingson ** 44:11 yeah, and it goes both ways. I mean, there's so many ways the United States has also helped. So you're not, yeah, you're not really in favor of Canada being the 51st state, huh?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 44:26 You know, no, yeah, I love America. I mean, I have a lot of great friends in America and people I adore, but I think Canada is its own unique entity, and the US has been a great ally in a lot of ways, and we're in it together, right, right? I mean, really in it together, and we need to stay as allies. And as soon as you start putting up a fence and throwing rocks over the fence to each other, it just creates such a feud and an unnecessary feud, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 44:55 Well, very much so. And it is so unfortunate to see. It happening. And as you said, I think you put it very well. It's all about we're friends and friends. Don't treat friends in this way. But that is, that is, unfortunately, what we're seeing. I know I've been looking, and I constantly look for speaking opportunities, home, and I've sent emails to some places in Canada, and a few people have been honest enough to say, you know, we love what you do. We love your story. But right now, with what's going on between the United States and Canada, we wouldn't dare bring you to Canada, and while perhaps I could help by speaking and easing some of that a little bit. I also appreciate what they're saying, and I've said that to them and say, I understand, but this too shall pass. And so please, let's stay in touch, but I understand. And you know, that's all one can do.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 46:01 Yeah, and it, it too shall pass. I mean, it's just all and then anxiety takes over and it gets in the way of logic. Michael Hingston would, hingson would be our best speaker for this option, but the optics of it might get us into trouble, and they just get all wound up about it. And I you know, in the end of the day this, this will pass, but it's very difficult time, and we need to say, Okay, we can't control what's going to happen with tariffs or next month or whatever, but we can control today. And, yeah, I just went on a walk by the river. It was beautiful, and it was just so fulfilling to my soul to be outside. And that's what I could control the day   Michael Hingson ** 46:41 that's right? And that walk by the river and that being outside and having a little bit of time to reflect has to help reduce fear and stress.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 46:54 It does it very much, does   Michael Hingson ** 46:58 and and isn't that something that that more people should do, even if you're working in the office all day, it would seem like it would be helpful for people to take at least some time to step away mentally and relax, which would help drop some of the fear and the stress that they face. Anyway,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 47:20 100% and I am at my office downtown today, and I can see the river right now from my window. And there's research evidence that when you can see water flowing and you can see trees, it really makes a difference to your mental health. So this office is very intentional for me, having the windows having the bright light very intentional.   Michael Hingson ** 47:44 I have a recording that I listen to every day for about 15 minutes, and it includes ocean sounds, and that is so soothing and just helps put so many things in perspective. Now it's not quite the same as sitting at the ocean and hearing the ocean sounds, but it's close enough that it works.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 48:06 That's beautiful. And you're going to come on to my podcast and we're going to talk a lot more about your story, and that'll be really great.   Michael Hingson ** 48:14 We're doing that in May.   48:16 Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 48:17 absolutely, and I'm looking forward to it. Well, how did you get involved in doing a podcast? What got you started down that road? Oh, your tricky podcast. Yeah.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 48:32 So I was running my company. So I have a company of psychologists in Canada, and we operate across the country, and we do two things really, really well. One is helping people navigate their careers at all ages and stages and make find fulfilling career directions. And then our other thing we do well is helping organizations, helping be healthier places to work, so building better leaders, helping create better cultures in organizations. So that's what we do, and we have. I've been running that for 16 years so my own firm, and at the same time, I always wanted a podcast, and it was 2020, and I said, Okay, I'm turning 45 years old. For my birthday gift to myself, I'm going to start a podcast. And I said, Does anyone else on the team want to co host, and we'll share the responsibilities of it, and we could even alternate hosting. No, no, no, no, no, no one else was interested, which is fine, I was interested. So I said, this is going to be, Dr Laura, then this podcast, I'm going to call it. Dr Laura, where work meets life. So the podcast is where work meets life, and then I'm Dr Laura, Canada's. Dr Laura,   Michael Hingson ** 49:41 yeah, I was gonna say there we've got lots of dr, Laura's at least two not to be   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 49:44 mixed up with your radio. One not to be mixed up completely different, right, in approach and style and values. And so I took on that started the podcast as the labor of love, and said, I'm going to talk about three. Three things, helping people thrive in their careers, helping people thrive in their lives, and helping organizations to thrive. And then, oh yeah, I'll throw in some episodes around advocating for a better world. And then the feedback I got was that's a lot of lanes to be in, Laura, right? That is a lot of lanes. And I said, Yeah, but the commonality is the intersection of work and life, and I want to have enough variety that it's stuff that I'm genuinely curious to learn, and it's guests that I'm curious to learn from, as well as my own musings on certain topics. And so that's what's happened. So it's it's 111 episodes in I just recorded 111 that's cool, yeah. So it's every two weeks, so it's not as often as some podcasts, but every episode is full of golden nuggets and wisdom, and it's been a journey and a labor of love. And I do it for the joy of it. I don't do it as a, you know, it's not really a business thing. It's led to great connections. But I don't do it to make money, and, in fact, it costs me money, but I do it to make a difference in the tricky world,   Michael Hingson ** 51:11 right? Well, but at the same time, you get to learn a lot. You get to meet people, and that's really what it's all about anyway.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 51:21 Oh, I've met some incredible people like you through doing it, Michael and like my mentor, Sy Wakeman, who wrote the book no ego that's behind me in my office, and who's just a prolific speaker and researcher on drama and ego in the workplace. And you know, I've, I've met gurus from around the world on different topics. It's been fabulous,   Michael Hingson ** 51:47 and that is so cool. Well, and you, you've written some books. Tell us about your books, and by the way, by the way, I would appreciate it if you would email me photos of book covers, because I want to put those in the show notes.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 52:03 Oh, okay, I'm going to start with my current book that it actually, I just submitted my manuscript the other day, and it's, it's about toxic bosses, and how we can navigate and exit and recover from a toxic boss. And I saw this as a huge problem in the last couple of years, across different workplaces, across different people, almost everyone I met either had experienced it or had a loved one experience a toxic boss. And so I said, What is a toxic boss? First of all, how is this defined, and what does the research say? Because I'm always looking at, well, what the research says? And wait a minute, there's not a lot of research in North America. I'm an adjunct professor of psychology. I have a team of students. I can do research on this. I'm going to get to the bottom of toxic bosses post pandemic. What? What are toxic bosses? What are the damage they're inflicting on people, how do they come across, and what do we do about it? And then, how do we heal and recover? Because it's a form of trauma. So that's what I've been heavily immersed in, heavily immersed in. And the book is going to really help a lot of humans. It really is. So that's my passion right now is that book and getting it out into the world in January 2026, it's going to be   Michael Hingson ** 53:27 published. What's it called? Do you have a title   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 53:30 yet? I do, but I'm not really okay title officially yet, because it's just being with my publisher and editor, and I just don't want to say it until actually, Michael, I have the cover so it's going through cover design. I have a US publisher, and it's going through cover design, and that's so important to me, the visual of this, and then I'll share the I'll do a cover reveal. Good for you, yeah, and this is important to me, and I think it's timely, and I really differentiate what's a difficult boss versus a toxic boss, because there's a lot of difficult bosses, but I don't want to mix up difficult from toxic, because I think we need to understand the difference, and we need to help difficult bosses become better. We need to help toxic bosses not to do their damage and organizations to deal with them. And it's just there's so many different legs to this project. I'll be doing it for years.   Michael Hingson ** 54:24 So what's the difference between difficult and toxic? Or can you talk about that?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 54:29 Yeah, I can talk about, I mean, some of the differences difficult bosses are frustrating, annoying. They can be poor communicators, bad delegators. They can even micromanage sometimes, and micromanagement is a common thing in new leaders, common issue. But the difference is that they the difficult boss doesn't cause psychological harm to you. They don't cause psychological and physical harm to you. They're not. Malicious in their intent. They're just kind of bumbling, right? They're just bumbling unintentionally. It's unintentional. The toxic boss is manipulative, dishonest, narcissistic. They can gaslight, they can abuse, they can harass, all these things that are intentional. Negative energy that inflicts psychological and or physical harm.   Michael Hingson ** 55:27 And I suspect you would say their actions are deliberate for the most part, for the most part, at   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 55:35 least, yeah. And that's a whole Yeah, yeah. I would say whether they're deliberate or not, it's the impact that matters. And the impact is deep psychological hurt and pain, which is, and we know the Psych and the body are related, and it often turns into physical. So my research participants, you know, lots of issues. There's there's research. Cardiovascular is impacted by toxic bosses. Your mental health is your your heart rate, your your digestion, your gut. I mean, all of it's connected. When you have a toxic Boss,   Michael Hingson ** 56:09 what usually creates a toxic boss? It has to come from somewhere   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 56:18 that stems back to childhood. Typically got it. And we get into a whole you know about childhood trauma, right? Big T trauma and little T trauma. Little T trauma are almost death by 1000 paper cuts. It's all the little traumas that you know you you went through, if they're unaddressed, if they're unaddressed, big T trauma is you were sexually assaulted, or you were physically abused, or you went through a war and you had to escape the war torn country, or those sorts of things I call big T and I've learned this from other researchers. Little Ts are like this. You know, maybe microaggressions, maybe being teased, maybe being you know, these things that add up over time and affect your self confidence. And if you don't deal with the little Ts, they can cause harm in adulthood as well. And so that's what, depending on what went on earlier, whether you dealt with that or not, can make you come across into adulthood as a narcissist, for example,   Michael Hingson ** 57:21 right? Well, you've written some other books also, haven't   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 57:25 you? Oh, yeah, so let's cheer this conversation up. I wrote two psychological thrillers. I am mad. I have an active imagination. I thought, what if someone got kidnapped by a billionaire, multi billionaire ex boyfriend who was your high school sweetheart, but it was 10 years later, and they created a perfect life for you, a perfect life for you, in a perfect world for you. What would that be like? So it's all about navigating that situation. So I have a strong female protagonist, so it's called losing cadence. And then I wrote a sequel, because my readers loved it so much, and it ended on a Hollywood cliffhanger. So then I wrote the sequel that takes place 12 years later, and I have a producing partner in in Hollywood, and we're pitching it for a TV series filmed as a three season, three seasons of episodes, and potentially more, because it's a really interesting story that has you at the edge of your seat at every episode.   Michael Hingson ** 58:28 Have those books been converted to audio? Also?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 58:33 No, no, I never converted them to audio. But I should. I should.   Michael Hingson ** 58:37 You should, you should. Did you publish them? Or did you have a publisher? I   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 58:41 published these ones. Yeah, a decade ago, a decade ago,   Michael Hingson ** 58:45 it has gotten easier, apparently, to make books available on Audible, whether you read them or you get somebody else to do it, the process isn't what it used to be. So might be something to look at. That'd be kind of fun.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 59:00 I think so. And I'll be doing that for my toxic boss book. Anyway, Michael, so I'm going to learn the ropes, and then I could do it for losing cadence and finding Sophie,   Michael Hingson ** 59:09 you'd find probably a lot of interested people who would love to have them in audio, because people running around, jogging and all that, love to listen to things, and they listen to podcasts, yours and mine. But I think also audio books are one way that people get entertained when they're doing other things. So yeah, I advocate for it. And of course, all of us who are blind would love it as well. Of   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 59:34 course, of course, I just it's on my mind. It's and I'm going to manifest doing that at some point.   Michael Hingson ** 59:41 Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely a heck of a lot of fun, and we'll have to do it again. We'll do it in May, and we may just have to have a second episode going forward. We'll see how it goes. But I'm looking forward to being on the your podcast in May, and definitely send me a. The book covers for the the two books that you have out, because I'd like to make sure that we put those in the show notes for the podcast. But if people want to reach out to you, learn more about you, maybe learn what you do and see how you can work with them. How do they do that?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 1:00:14 Sure, that's a great question. So triple w.dr, Laura all is one word, D R, L, A, u, r, a, dot live. So Dr, Laura dot live is my website, and then you'll find where work meets life on all the podcast platforms. You'll find me a lot on LinkedIn as Dr Laura Hambley, love it, so I love LinkedIn, but I'm also on all the platforms, and I just love connecting with people. I share a lot of videos and audio and articles, and I'm always producing things that I think will help people and help organizations.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:52 Well, cool. Well, I hope people will reach out. And speaking of reaching out, I'd love to hear what you all think of our episode today. So please feel free to email me at Michael H I M, I C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S i b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast and Michael hingson is m, I C H, A, E, L, H i N, G, s o n.com/podcast, wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value that. If you don't give us a five star rating, I won't tell Alamo, my guy dog, and so you'll be safe. But we really do appreciate you giving us great ratings. We'd love to hear your thoughts. If any of you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on our podcast, or if you want to be a guest, and of course, Laura, if you know some folks, we are always looking for more people to come on unstoppable mindset. So please feel free to let me know about that. Introduce us. We're always looking for more people and more interesting stories to tell. So we hope that that you'll do that. But I want to thank but I want to thank you again for coming on today. This has been fun,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 1:02:07 definitely, and I really admire you, Michael, and I can't wait to have you on where work meets life.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:02:18 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Fate, Faith and Teamwork: How Michael Hingson and his dog escaped 9/11 Did you know that Michael Hingson, who was born blind, not only climbed Mount Kilimanjaro but also survived the 9/11 attacks while helping others escape? His life is full of incredible adventures! Michael Hingson, blind since birth, was born in Chicago to sighted parents who believed in raising their son with a can-do attitude. Treated like all other children in his family, Michael rode a bike did advanced math in his head and learn to read and write – Braille that is! Michael's family relocated to the warm Palmdale area of California when he was five years old. It is here that Hingson had his first adventure with Guide Dogs for the Blind and received his first guide dog.  He later went to college receiving a bachelor's and master's degree in Physics along with a secondary teaching credential from the University of California at Irvine. Michael then enjoyed a nearly-30-year career working for high tech companies spending most of his time in management roles. Michael Hingson's life changed dramatically on September 11, 2001 when he and his guide dog, Roselle, escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the World Trade Center moments before it collapsed. Soon after, Michael and Roselle were thrust into the international limelight where Michael began to share his unique survival story and 9-11 lessons of trust, courage, heroism, and teamwork.  Speaking to some of the world's most elite: from former President, George W. Bush to Larry King, to Fortune 500 companies and colleges and Universities Nationwide. After sharing his story of survival on hundreds of TV and Radio programs, Michael is now an Expert hired by many of today's major corporations and organizations. Speaking and consulting on the importance of Teamwork and Trust, Moving from Diversity to Inclusion, as well as offering Adaptive Technology Training – spearheading innovation for ALL! - Thus, bringing organizations to the forefront of the ever-changing competitive modern world.  Schedule a complimentary coaching call with Rebecca https://calendly.com/rebeccaelizabethwhitman/breakthrough https://modere.io/QwoNYU https://modere.io/CtlaDw To learn more about Rebecca… https://www.rebeccaelizabethwhitman.com pillar.io/rebeccaewhitman #MichaelHingson#InspirationalStories#OvercomingChallenges#Resilience#PersonalGrowth#CanDoAttitude#LifeLessons#MotivationalSpeaker#DisabilityAwareness#VisualImpairment#BlindCommunity#AdaptiveTechnology#AssistiveDevices#Braille#InclusionMatters#AccessibilityForAll#ChicagoInspiration#PalmdalePride#ChicagoEvents#PalmdaleCommunity#BreakingBarriers#EmpowerThroughAdversity#StrengthInDiversity#AbilityNotDisability#UnstoppableMindset

Fate, Faith and Teamwork: How Michael Hingson and his dog escaped 9/11 Did you know that Michael Hingson, who was born blind, not only climbed Mount Kilimanjaro but also survived the 9/11 attacks while helping others escape? His life is full of incredible adventures! Michael Hingson, blind since birth, was born in Chicago to sighted parents who believed in raising their son with a can-do attitude. Treated like all other children in his family, Michael rode a bike did advanced math in his head and learn to read and write – Braille that is! Michael's family relocated to the warm Palmdale area of California when he was five years old. It is here that Hingson had his first adventure with Guide Dogs for the Blind and received his first guide dog.  He later went to college receiving a bachelor's and master's degree in Physics along with a secondary teaching credential from the University of California at Irvine. Michael then enjoyed a nearly-30-year career working for high tech companies spending most of his time in management roles. Michael Hingson's life changed dramatically on September 11, 2001 when he and his guide dog, Roselle, escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the World Trade Center moments before it collapsed. Soon after, Michael and Roselle were thrust into the international limelight where Michael began to share his unique survival story and 9-11 lessons of trust, courage, heroism, and teamwork.  Speaking to some of the world's most elite: from former President, George W. Bush to Larry King, to Fortune 500 companies and colleges and Universities Nationwide. After sharing his story of survival on hundreds of TV and Radio programs, Michael is now an Expert hired by many of today's major corporations and organizations. Speaking and consulting on the importance of Teamwork and Trust, Moving from Diversity to Inclusion, as well as offering Adaptive Technology Training – spearheading innovation for ALL! - Thus, bringing organizations to the forefront of the ever-changing competitive modern world.  Schedule a complimentary coaching call with Rebecca https://calendly.com/rebeccaelizabethwhitman/breakthrough https://modere.io/QwoNYU https://modere.io/CtlaDw To learn more about Rebecca… https://www.rebeccaelizabethwhitman.com pillar.io/rebeccaewhitman #MichaelHingson#InspirationalStories#OvercomingChallenges#Resilience#PersonalGrowth#CanDoAttitude#LifeLessons#MotivationalSpeaker#DisabilityAwareness#VisualImpairment#BlindCommunity#AdaptiveTechnology#AssistiveDevices#Braille#InclusionMatters#AccessibilityForAll#ChicagoInspiration#PalmdalePride#ChicagoEvents#PalmdaleCommunity#BreakingBarriers#EmpowerThroughAdversity#StrengthInDiversity#AbilityNotDisability#UnstoppableMindset

Dave Murphy – An Ordinary Bloke with Extraordinary ExperiencesHi, I'm Dave. I consider myself an ordinary guy, but life has thrown a series of extraordinary events my way.I grew up in Basildon, Essex, and started my career as an animator and graphic artist before transitioning into computer programming. Before long, I was headhunted by a New York consultancy firm and found myself working for some of the most prestigious (read: "evil") and successful (read: "greedy, dishonest, and manipulative") Fortune 500 companies in the city.While navigating corporate life, I also joined the local volunteer Fire Department and started my own business on the side. It wasn't long before I was making serious money. My wife and I bought our dream cars, remodeled our home to twice its size, and I built a man-cave filled with the latest gadgets and toys. But despite the material success, something didn't feel right—I was deeply entrenched in what I now call The Matrix, believing the world worked exactly as it was presented to me on TV.Everything changed after a layoff when I turned down a job offer on the 40th floor of Tower One at the World Trade Center. Instead, I took a position across the Hudson River in Hoboken, NJ—where I watched in disbelief as the events of 9/11 unfolded before my eyes. That moment shattered my perception of reality and set me on a path of questioning everything I thought I knew.

 Michael Hingson, blind since birth, was born in Chicago to sighted parents who believed in raising their son with a can-do attitude. Treated like all other children in his family, Michael rode a bike did advanced math in his head and learn to read and write – Braille that is! Michael's family relocated to the warm Palmdale area of California when he was five years old. It is here that Hingson had his first adventure with Guide Dogs for the Blind and received his first guide dog. He later went to college receiving a bachelor's and master's degree in Physics along with a secondary teaching credential from the University of California at Irvine. Michael then enjoyed a nearly-30-year career working for high tech companies spending most of his time in management roles. Michael Hingson's life changed dramatically on September 11, 2001 when he and his guide dog, Roselle, escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the World Trade Center moments before it collapsed. Soon after, Michael and Roselle were thrust into the international limelight where Michael began to share his unique survival story and 9-11 lessons of trust, courage, heroism, and teamwork. Mike has served as The National Public Affairs Director for one of the largest Nonprofit organizations in the nation: Guide Dogs for the Blind; He has served as the vice president of the National Association of Guide Dog Users; Michael has held a seat on the Fort Worth Lighthouse for the Blind. He is the chair of the board of directors of the Earle Baum Center for the Blind and is the vice chair of the Colorado Center for the Blind; Michael is The National Ambassador for the Braille Literacy Campaign of the National Federation of the Blind. Until October 2019 he worked as the CEO of the Do More Foundation, the non-profit arm of Aira Tech Corp, a manufacturer of assistive technology which makes a revolutionary visual interpreter for blind people. In January 2021 Mike joined accessiBe as its Chief Vision Officer to help advance the company goal of making the entire internet fully inclusive. AccessiBe provides an artificial intelligence-based product that makes web sites accessible to many persons with disabilities. He is the author of the #1 New York Times Best Seller: “Thunder dog –The True Story of a Blind Man, a Guide Dog & the Triumph of Trust” – selling over 2.5 million copies Worldwide. In 2014 Mr. Hingson published his 2 nd book “Running with Roselle”- which Is the first of its kind- A story for our youth shedding light on one of Americas Darkest Days. Mr. Hingson's third book, “Live Like A Guide Dog”, was released on August 20, 2024. This book shows readers how they can learn to control fear and not, as Mike would say, “become blinded by fear in the face of crisis”. Aside from his talents and advocacies, Mr. Hingson has traveled the Globe from Japan to New Zealand, the Netherlands to his hometown, Chicago. Speaking to some of the world's most elite: from former President, George W. Bush to Larry King, to Fortune 500 companies and colleges and Universities Nationwide. After sharing his story of survival on hundreds of TV and Radio programs, Michael is now an Expert hired by many of today's major corporations and organizations. Speaking and consulting on the importance of Teamwork and Trust, Moving from Diversity to Inclusion, as well as offering Adaptive Technology Training – spearheading innovation for ALL! - Thus, bringing organizations to the forefront of the ever-changing competitive modern world. Body Transformation System!https://modere.io/NbOyU2https://calendly.com/rebeccaelizabethwhitman/breakthroughTo learn more about Rebecca…https://www.rebeccaelizabethwhitman.com/#homehttps://everydaywomantv.com/tv_shows/the-balanced-beautiful-and-abundant-show/

Nugget of Hope: "Be more open to trust." Michael Hingson, blind since birth, was born in Chicago to sighted parents who believed in raising their son with a can-do attitude. Treated like all other children in his family, Michael rode a bike, did advanced math in his head, and learned to read and write – Braille, that is! Michael Hingson's life changed dramatically on September 11, 2001, when he and his guide dog, Roselle, escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the World Trade Center moments before it collapsed. Michael wrote a book about his experience, Thunder Dog, which became a New York Times Best Seller, and soon after, Michael and Roselle were thrust into the international limelight, where Michael began to share his unique survival story and 9-11 lessons of trust, courage, heroism, and teamwork. Michael is now the author of three books and hosts The Unstoppable Mindset Podcast. The Unstoppable Mindset Podcast https://michaelhingson.com/ Michaels Books Thunder Dog Running with Roselle His newest book, released in August of 2024, Live Like A Guide Dog is available on Amazon and pretty much wherever you can buy a book! The Roselle's Dream Foundation Roselle was Michael Hingson's guide dog and trusted companion for many years. Her life and her heroic actions on 9/11 inspired the formation of The Roselle's Dream Foundation. The mission of the foundation is to assist the blind with obtaining new technologies, empowering them to learn, to work, and to maximize their success in today's challenging world. Learn more about your host, Kim Lengling: www.kimlenglingauthor.com Kim's Books: Available on Amazon https://amzn.to/3V84UNU

What can we learn about bravery and trust from a guide dog? In this episode of Empowering Homeschool Conversations, co-host Stephanie Buckwalter sits down with Michael Hingson, New York Times bestselling author of Thunder Dog, to explore the incredible story of his survival on 9/11 and the life-changing lessons guide dogs can teach us. Michael and his guide dog Roselle escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One during the attacks on the World Trade Center, and his story has since inspired millions. As an internationally sought-after speaker, Michael has addressed audiences at ExxonMobil, FedEx, the American Red Cross, and many other prominent organizations, sharing insights on leadership, resilience, and overcoming adversity. Beyond his work as an author and speaker, Michael serves as Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe, a company that promotes digital accessibility for people with disabilities, and is the National Federation of the Blind's ambassador for its National Braille Literacy Campaign. Tune in to hear how the unique bond between a man and his guide dog helped them navigate one of the darkest moments in history and what it can teach us about facing challenges with courage and trust. To join in the after-show conversation, join the Empowering Homeschool Conversations Q&A group here:https://www.spedhomeschool.com/groups/tuesday-empowering-conversations *You must have a Navigator Membership or higher on Homeschool Heroes to be part of this group. To get a membership or upgrade your membership, visit: https://www.spedhomeschool.com/membershipTo connect with Michael and his resources, visit:https://michaelhingson.com/ Viewers like you funded similar episodes, and other free resources from SPED Homeschool. To learn how you can support the nonprofit work of SPED Homeschool and this broadcast, visit https://spedhomeschool.com/donate/ To find out more about SPED Homeschool, visit our website at https://spedhomeschool.com/ To learn about the other Empowering Homeschool Conversations Co-Hosts and their resources, visit: https://annieyorty.com/https://www.leilanimelendez.com/https://elarplearning.com/https://solimaracademy.com/ Join our mission to empower homeschool families!: https://spedhomeschool.com/donate/Join our mission to empower homeschool families!: https://spedhomeschool.com/donate/ Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

He was in Tower One on 9/11. And he relied on his guide dog, Roselle, to escape with his life that day. Hear more of Michael Hingson's story on Wednesday. During his decades of walking with guide dogs, he's learned surprising truths, such as, "Being afraid can be a positive thing." Hear lessons learned from a lifetime with guide dogs on Chris Fabry Live.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Return with us now to yesteryear ....As we approach another anniversary of that terrible day The National September 11,(2001) Memorial & Museum leads the nation, and the world, in marking the the day that changed our lives forever. The 23nd anniversary commemoration ceremony will take place next week in Manhattan at the WTC Memorial Plaza, focused as always on an in-person reading of the names of the 3000 souls lost in the tragedy, by family members and friends who like all of us will never forget. But what of the people that were inside that somehow made it to the outside and live on today? Our friend and head air cargo guy for Port Authority of New York & New Jersey is one of those people. Today Jim Larsen who was ex Seaboard World Cargo when he became the second and so far greatest most innovative airport cargo executive you ever met lives quietly by himself in Lakehurst New Jersey about an hour from New Yok City. But on that bright beautiful day September 11 and 08:00 he sat down inside Tower One, and as the first plane crashed into his building thought the tower was going to turn over, and it was curtains for him and everyone else on the 65th floor of the building. Here is a timeless story of true courage and greatness told once again just as he told us a few days after his miraculous survival and great courage as Jim became a great hero of that terrible day walking all the way down and out of that soon to crash building with others including physically challenged people.

Dr. Alessandra Wal spent her first seven years of life living in the Middle East. She then spent ten years in France. All of these experiences gave her a rich view of different peoples and cultures which still serve her well today.   At the age of 18, she came to the United States where she attended undergraduate school at Duke University. She will tell us how “different” life was for her in a major college sports town, at least different from the kind of environments she had experienced up to that time. She attended graduate school at the University of Texas Medical center in Dallas where she eventually earned her PHD in Psychology. From an early age she loved to read, learn about people and wanted to understand them. For her, Psychology was the natural route to take.   Fairly recently Dr. Wal decided to shift from being a practicing psychologist to being a leadership coach for women. She has fascinating stories of the kinds of efforts her coaching practice has undertaken. She specializes in helping smart, ambitious executive women in male-dominated industries build wildly successful AND deeply fulfilling careers. When asked, she is quick to point out that men are very much a part of the equation. I leave it to Alessandra to explain and teach.   Dr. Wal and I had a wonderful and natural conversation. I came away blessed for the opportunity to speak with her and to better understand how all of us need to work harder and better at communicating and supporting each other.   About the Guest:   Dr. Alessandra Wall made a major career switch from a busy psychologist to successful founder & high-impact executive coach at Noteworthy. She specializes in helping smart, ambitious executive women in male-dominated industries build wildly successful AND deeply fulfilling careers.  Dr. Wall is on a mission to build a world where seeing women access the highest levels of leadership and success is so common, it's no longer noteworthy. She's confident that she can move the needle for women both through her 1:1 work with women and through her training, consulting, and partnership with companies that understand and value the impact of women leaders. You can find out more and access free resources at noteworthyinc.co.   When she's not busy helping executive women balance ambition, corporate dynamics, and personal well-being you will find her curled up in an armchair with a good book and an a piping hot cup of coffee.   Ways to connect with Dr.Alessandra: Website:Noteworthyinc.co LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/dralessandrawall/   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi and welcome once again to unstoppable mindset we get to meet every so often and chat and we get to have a number of people come on the podcast to have interesting stories to tell. And it is no different today we get to talk with Dr. Alessandra Wall. And she is a psychologist. Am I saying that right? Yes. Yeah. Are you psychologists to the founder and CEO of noteworthy and we'll get to that. But Alessandra and do you go by Alessandra or anything else?   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 01:59 Now? Full name. I forgot, Alessandra. Oh, no, it is. Yep.   Michael Hingson ** 02:02 Perfect. So welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 02:07 I am very glad to be here. Thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 02:10 Well, thank you for taking the time to be here. Well, let's start talking about maybe a little bit of the earlier Alessandra growing up and all that sort of stuff. That's always fun to do that.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 02:22 Who doesn't love waxing poetic about their childhood? There   Michael Hingson ** 02:26 you go. So wax poetic as long and as much as you wish.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 02:29 Let's see. Most important things about my job most interesting things   Michael Hingson ** 02:34 are unimportant either way. So   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 02:37 things you can't hear when I speak anymore. Although somebody the other day at the airport said I had an accent and I'm like an accent. I have an accent. I don't hear it. But if you say so, I grew up. I grew up in I was born in Iran, moved to Kuwait, moved to Saudi Arabia, moved from there to France, which is where my mom was born and raised, and lived there until I was 18. And I didn't move to the States until I was 18. My father is from Kansas. A lot less traveling for him. But apparently I still have an accent. But the person in the airport was adamant it was not a European accent. He said maybe Midwestern. And I'm like, there's really just no chance of that, based, at least geographically on where I've lived in the world.   Michael Hingson ** 03:27 Interesting. Well, how long were you in Iran and Kuwait and the first   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 03:33 seven years of my life, my parents spend a total of 10 years in the Middle East, okay. I got to I got to spend the first seven years of my life and then move to France in what was at the time right outside of Paris, which is in one of the coldest winters they've ever had. That was a that was quite a shock making the move, but not not not too uncommon. We'd spent a few Christmases in Goodland, Kansas, and it snows a good deal there.   Michael Hingson ** 04:02 Yeah. So what what are what were your parents doing in the Middle East? What was work or whatever I assume? Go?   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 04:10 For my dad. Yes, my mom didn't work put into in some of the places we live. But she my father was an engineer. Also all the things that engineer, engineer and electronics. So all the things that engineers and electronics do, or did at the time, this is the late 70s, early 80s in the Middle East and then just made interesting choices. He's a man who was very bold with his choices from life, given that he was born in 1928 in the Dust Bowl, and those weren't necessarily typical choices for his background.   Michael Hingson ** 04:49 I had friends they've, he's passed away now. And my wife actually knew them first and introduced me but he worked for us. And they spent several years in the late 70s In Iran, and actually were there when the Shah was overthrown. And it was a major challenge to get her and their cats out. And then he got out as well. But they, they made it happen. But it was a definite tense time all the way around. It was   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 05:27 my father worked for us too, but not by the time he moved to Iran. And we left right before the Scheifele. Yeah, both my parents learned Farsi. I had siblings who spoke, my brother spoke four languages. By the time he was five from traveling, French and English, Italian because they were living in Rome before and my mom is a first generation French of Italian descent. And then Farsi, they all spoke Farsi.   Michael Hingson ** 05:56 So what do you remember about living in the Middle East? And what was it like as a child kind of growing up there?   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 06:02 I have very fond memories. And I mean, for a variety of reasons. I remember I remember the kindness of people, and how welcoming most people were. I remember, I mean, depending on what years there were times where we lived in compounds, which with all expats and all foreigners, right. And those those experiences were fun, but very different, very Western. But I also remember sitting outside a house in Kuwait, with the neighbors right around Ramadan and watching them, you know, butcher chickens to cook I. I tell people in the states we don't think about late, but I when I hear the call to prayer, the Muslim call to prayer, I have very fond memories in the same way that when I hear church bells, and that was that was my recollection for moving in France, right is hearing church bells and doves on a regular basis. Like they, they're fond memories, like some people might, you know, have a smell that brings them back to childhood. And I had a brother who would wear navy blue corduroy pants in the desert, which is also very interesting to me. So it speaks you know, we talk about being adaptable. And it speaks to human adaptability.   Michael Hingson ** 07:23 Yeah, it must have been wearing corduroy pants and so on, it must have been pretty hot over there. It   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 07:31 was pretty hot. I'm not strange one Strangely, I didn't I didn't start talking in Fahrenheit until I moved to the States. And then there's never got that bad, but my understanding is, so at least 40 degrees Celsius Celsius, if not more and humid, apparently very humid, certain times of years. But again, like for my brother, he was in the middle east from the time he was two or three until 13. He spent the full 10 years of his life there. So really, it's bouncing around from country to country bouncing around from culture to culture, will having to learn having to integrate having to getting not having to in this case, like getting this opportunity to develop richness in your practices from living in so many places and meeting so many different people. That for me, those are part of the reasons why all of that is so fond, and yeah, moved later on both to like my first friends in France where they were mixes right there were like my best friend was his mom was British and his dad was French. And then my other best friend her. She her parents were on the dad's side he was a first generation French of Italian. Parents mom was all French but same thing in college when I moved my first friends were all people who had multicultural backgrounds because there was an ease of fitting in.   Michael Hingson ** 09:01 It certainly must seem a lot different. Now over there, as opposed to what it was when you were living there.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 09:10 I am told it is very different. I know that for the Middle East, my for Iran, specifically my mother, my mother loved it. She loved she loved the language. She loved the culture. had wanted to go back but every time we spoken to people who who stayed or who let who had to leave and who came back. They talked about how jarring the differences. As for the Middle East. I am still looking for opportunities. I'm crossing my fingers for opportunities actually to go speak in the Middle East. So if anybody's listening and he's a speaker, I'm just gonna throw that out there. They keep on telling my mom the second I get an opportunity. I'll invite her to come with me. I   Michael Hingson ** 09:54 spend time this past August August 2023 I add excessively in Tel Aviv, this first time I'd been to Israel. And we also then went to Jerusalem. So we went through the West Bank and into Jerusalem. I very much enjoyed it. It is so sad as to what's occurring there now. And it's the usual thing that so often politicians and others just don't tend to listen to others. And it certainly makes it a lot more difficult to try to create some sort of meaningful and peaceful relationships, doesn't it? Definitely.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 10:32 Right. I mean, that's the challenge of leadership, ultimately, actually, can you? Can you rise to a position where you have the privilege, and therefore the responsibility of leading well, and still stay in touch with the people you're supposed to be? Leading, I was thinking about the word the other day, actually, just this weekend talking to my husband about a civil servant, which is, which is ultimately, what politicians are supposed to be their civil servants. Hello, hello,   11:06 people.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 11:10 And whether it's politics, or the corporate world, they just think that it's very easy to forget that. To quote Uncle Ben, in Spider Man, you know, with great power comes great responsibility.   Michael Hingson ** 11:26 It is very true. And the and the problem is it's so easy to and we seem to easily forget all of that. And we forget that leaders really are supposed to be servants. They're supposed to guide and they're supposed to help people vision and make the vision happen but not dictate. And that's just not what goes on isn't? Nope,   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 11:50 not anymore. Well, realistically, I say not anymore. I think not mostly many points in history where that wasn't the case, either. We had a brief period where things look that way. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 12:05 So when you came to the US, at 18, that must have been a major culture shock compared to what you had experienced in Europe in the Middle East. It   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 12:18 was I wasn't expecting it. My father, as I said, was actually born in Nebraska, I grew up in Kansas, we would come back to the States to visit my cousins and aunts and uncles who had, for the most part, migrated to California and Los Angeles and like the golden age of Los Angeles. So my assumption was that I would walk in and I would fit in because in France, I was, you know, here's my friend, she's American. Right? That's that's how I was introduced very often. But coming to the states, it was there was a massive culture shock and one that I don't think a lot of people realize, because if people look at me, I, I look the part of you know, white, I'm white, I speak with no accent I do sometimes, especially when I get tired to say weird things because my brain literally translates from one language to another. So I when he would come here, and I would say to offer a gift, because in French you offer gifts, give a gift. And I use some British expressions, such as to q where a booth or to talk about the trunk of a car. They, I as my mom would point out to me, I articulated far more before I moved to the States and was easier to understand, apparently, but the big thing was just habits I remember, you know, there going I went to Duke University for undergraduate and I remember being handed a a leaflet about things that that were okay to discuss in America and things that weren't okay to discuss, or the notion of small talk and how important it is to the social interactions in the US. I remember being asked my very, very first night feeling very homesick and alone. If it's true that French people were really rude and they didn't shave and they smell bad. And my response to the young woman who asked me that question was, well, far less rude than you're being right now. The women wax and yeah, sometimes a second shower would work well. So getting in the habit of kind of figuring out simple things that make sense to people in America like in dorm room experiences. One thing that makes sense in America is you leave your dorm room open. And so as people walk down the hallway, they might walk in pop their head I didn't understand those things. I close my it was my bedroom door I closed bid, which also meant that I was harder to make friends, because they didn't understand the social patterns. Interestingly enough, nowadays and the work I do I spend a lot of time teaching people how to build relationships, make connections relate to other people in the in the American culture, and sometimes I get to work with with people who are working for large American corporations or have moved to branches of their corporations in the US and are really struggling with that disconnect between the way things are done in their cultures or their enter their country and the way things are done here.   Michael Hingson ** 15:39 Well, when you went to Duke, did you learn to play basketball? Because that's a rule in North Carolina, of course,   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 15:45 well, here's the thing, I had no idea what Duke basketball was about. None. I didn't get why it was a big deal. I also remember walking around and telling my Mother, why are these people walking around wearing shirts and baseball caps that say, Duke we know you're here, like, it's good. You're okay. Like, all those things that seem so again, commonplace things we do not think about because they're part of our lived experience. To me, were so awkward. So now I did not learn how to play basketball. I too, went to the UNC campus. I think on my second weekend, totally made friends with a bunch of Tar Heels. They broke all the rules. There was a massive failure in some ways.   Michael Hingson ** 16:30 There is relevance in communicating, though I've went to speak in North Carolina. And I will also say if anybody needs a speaker, I'd love to talk with you about speaking. Having been in the World Trade Center, and all the things that I've done, it's it's fun. And I'd love to travel abroad again, as well. But I went to Carolina to North Carolina to do a speech several years ago. And Duke, UNC and NC State were all poised to make it into March Madness, except that NC State and UNC had a game of the Thursday night I arrived. And I expected just to be able to watch some television and turn on the TV only to hear the announcer say shows are not going to be on tonight because of the game went okay. And I was in Kentucky when the Wildcats were actually not only in March Madness, but it was the final game. And they were one of the two teams in the final game. And I was doing a speech somewhere and was told, we have to end this entire event at 630. If you go beyond by one minute you will speaking to an empty gym. And we ended it on time. And sure enough, by 631, there were only about two or three people in the gym. And one of them was me and the other person was the person who was going to take me back to my hotel. Amazing. It is   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 18:00 really really you know, if we bring it back to like this larger concept that for people who don't, maybe listening who don't get it or understand it, it really comes down to when you walk into a space, do you understand what the people around you are about? What's important to them? Like what defines that our culture? And can you adapt to it? And I could absolutely and totally see what you're talking about happening. Like there's going to be nobody here.   Michael Hingson ** 18:30 And there wasn't, it was, I have never seen a gym clear out like that. And it wasn't even an emergency. But they were they were all gone. But it is interesting that as you point out and around this country, there are a lot of different cultures living in and I've been in Massachusetts and live there for three years, and I've lived in other places as well in New Jersey. And the cultures are so different in a lot of ways than here in California. And at the same time, unless you experience a number of those different cultures, you don't tend to get a flavor for or get some sort of depth of knowledge to be able to understand how to adapt. I, for example, met a person in New Jersey, who lived within 20 miles of New York City. This was a grown woman in her 50s and had never been to New York City. She had never really been out of Springfield, New Jersey and then the surrounding areas but it never been to New York City just wasn't even a priority to travel 20 miles   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 19:39 that that I cannot that does not compute for me. I mean, I know people like that I've very good friends in San Diego who have been born and raised here and we talked about the love for travel that like if they travel they traveled to go see friends in Oregon. And that's about it and there's no curiosity and Don't judge them for that it just does not compute. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 20:02 it's not, it's not a judgment issue at all. Whereas my wife, who was married to me for 40 years, she passed away last year, which is sad. But I've got 40 years of marriage, and I know she's monitoring. So if I'm ever not a good kid, I'm going to hear about it. So it works out. But the thing is that she had no fear of driving, when we were in New Jersey, into New York, and she drove all around California, when, when we needed to go and do different things, and all that and, and loved to see different places. And so I always grew up with that kind of attitude. And so it helped me when I went to different places, and went to places like West Virginia and an experience the foods that they have there, which are significantly different than in California. And just all the different things. It's I think, important that we find ways to broaden our horizons and at least learn to respect those and those environments that are different than ours. I   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 21:07 agree that I mean, on so many levels, right, to go back to some of the things we're talking about. I was reading articles this week about the risk of loss of the ability for people to have civil discourse, and a reading call about that very specifically in the workplace, that it's this huge potential risk for workplace initiatives for innovation for companies to be able to work together also for companies to be able to access like a broad spectrum of talent, because if people now only start working in companies where there's a one to one alignment on culture and values, and then then we lose, we lose that diversity of that creation. So the it's a, it's a big kind of space that people need to start thinking about in 2021. But part of what it takes to be able to move the way I did as a child or even in the state, so I moved to North Carolina, very different from Paris, France, in so many ways, but took the time to travel up and down the coast many times then left North Carolina moved to Texas to Dallas for graduate school. And as I was reminded day three in Texas when I asked for a sweet tea, I was like they told me Honey, this is not the South is the southwest. I'm like, okay, very different set of cultural norms, very different set of habits. For people who aren't, who haven't lived in both of those places. They might just put lump everything together in Boston. I've spent enough time in New York City I've been now in Southern California moving to Southern California. I don't know how things are in Victorville. But in San Diego, there's this thing that I later learned was called the SoCal flake. Buddy moving to Southern California. So let's take LA County all the way south, if you have plans with somebody, and they cancel on you about 10 minutes before your due to me because they're tired, and they just decide they'd stay home. It's not you. It's them. Yeah, but that is a typical, that is a typical culturally acceptable thing to do here. And I would, first of all, when I moved, I found it very difficult. But when I was still practicing, as a psychologist, and I would talk to people who moved here and felt very isolated very alone, I often brought that up and the sense of relief, they just didn't understand why it was so difficult to meet people why people were so inconsistent or flaky, thus the name so Catholic, and to just explain like that is just that you, your plans need to always be very agile and ready to switch. You know, this is these are just habits. So that ability to adapt, and the ability to have distress tolerance. Right, which is really what we're supposed to learn when we're toddlers distress tolerance. Yeah. becomes essential.   Michael Hingson ** 23:59 My inlaws spent most well a significant amount of their lives in California. My father in law was born in Canada, but moved here fairly young, my mother in law grew up in Arizona, but they really spent most of their time from maybe late 20s on in California. So they also went the other way. They would decide on a Saturday or a Sunday or whatever, let's have a party and they had a whole bunch of people who were friends, what they call the instant party group, and all they had to do is call and everybody show up. Love it. No plans just showed up. And people would bring things or not, and it didn't matter. But yeah, but the whole, the whole environment is definitely different than the structured environment of, say the east coast, where things are expected to be a certain way and That's just the way it is. And it's okay. But we need to learn to tolerate it and understand it. And as you pointed out this whole concept of social discourse and in the workplace and elsewhere, we're losing the art of conversing. Because there are so many people who don't necessarily think the way we do. And unfortunately, there are some people who have led so many people down that path of saying, Well, if you don't think the way I do, then you can't be good.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 25:33 It's, you know, my opinion is that there's a tendency to take a lot of it very personally, that if somebody doesn't agree with you on something, that it's that it's personal, it's about you, and it isn't. And a lot of the work, a lot of I do a lot of work around, mastering difficult conversations, I work with people in high stakes situations, right. So they're, they're often big personalities. And because I work with women, sometimes they know how to stand and tall and big in front of those personalities. And other times, it feels very unfamiliar to counterculture. And a lot of it is learning how to calm yourself down how to recognize what you are thinking, recognize what you what's triggering you. And making sense of whether the things that are triggering you pertain to the situation that's in front of you, or it's like your own history, it's your own baggage. That's where there's a massive crossover between what I used to do as a clinical psychologist, and then the work I do now,   Michael Hingson ** 26:41 one of the one of the things that people just don't do nearly enough, though, is to end in an in a nice way, in a curious way, ask questions, we are afraid. And I think we're taught that, you know, I see it all the time is I am somewhere and a child will want to know about my dog and they'll say to their parents, I want to go pet the dog or they'll compensate something to me in the parents will go don't talk to that man, he may not want to talk to you don't talk to that dog, it might bite. And I will stop no matter what I'm doing when some of that happens. especially dealing with the dog. And I'll take the dogs harness off and say absolutely, the dog won't bite come on over and visit. And the reality is the dog loves it even more than the child no matter what child it is, because they love the chance to take a break and get attention. But people are just taught how not to ask questions and how not to be curious. Which is so sad. Yeah,   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 27:42 because they don't get practice on how to frame a question. And I understand the the impulse of the parents, I think a lot of time the impulse is we don't want to make somebody feel different or feel bad. Certainly having done a lot of work in di there's that idea of you're you think you're the first person to ask the question. That's the 20th time this person has had to feel this question that day. The same time? If if the questions are never asked if the answers are never given, then things don't nothing gets normalized. Then people stand out as outliers because I have to stare at them and try to make a story in my head. Now I'm staring at somebody instead of asking them living in living in San Diego, we have a lot of wounded warriors, right. I would always tell my kids, when they would ask what do you think happened to that person's legs or their arms or whatever? I said, Listen, if you really, really, really want to know, you can respectfully ask them, Would it be okay? If I asked you a question? And they're not idiots? They know exactly what the question is, pertaining to. And then they have the right to say, No, I'm tired. I'm sorry, I'm busy, whatever blow you off, or you can simply ask. But what I don't want you doing is that like whispering pointing can sound like either you're truly curious asking with children, you get away with that a lot more, especially if they're cute and polite. Or you're not curious enough to ask in which case, then walk on by and go on and go, like live your life and do your day. But don't sit and stare at somebody and like whisper behind their back that's humanly evolutionarily, that's an incredibly uncomfortable position to be placed in as a human.   Michael Hingson ** 29:23 The media is what the media is, but I have to say, for me, and I've said it before on this podcast, after September 11, I made the choice to allow the media to come and interview me and I've been literally brought before cameras and had hundreds of interviews and I've been asked the dumbest questions in the world up to the most intelligent and smartest questions in the world. And I will not say even today, there is not a question that hasn't been asked because every so often, I'm surprised Somebody will come up with a new question that that makes me think. But I made the choice to do that. And it has been such a blessing to have all of that because it actually was great therapy for me because it made me talk about September 11. And all that was involved with that. But at the same time, it was a way to really get into discussions, and then learn how to frame responses. And the more times people wanted to interview me, the more I had to learn to deal with it, and did learn to deal with it to the point where it got to No, I wouldn't say be automatic to answer questions. But I was always open to answering questions, because the other part about it for me was being blind and different than 99.95% of the population. I figured that I needed to be a teacher. So I very rarely would refuse to answer a question. Because if I didn't, the odds are they wouldn't get the question answered. And usually, questions came as I understood them from misconceptions about what blind people could and couldn't do. And what I say wasn't what I say wasn't. So it was important to answer questions, and I really enjoyed and enjoy doing it.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 31:26 So I'm really curious, I have two questions for you. Do you? Yeah. If you feel free not to answer them if you don't want to. So I'll give them both. And you can answer them both, or in any order. So one of the questions is I have to ask, I mean, you said, I've been asked some of the stupidest questions. So I'm really curious what the stupidest question you've ever been asked is. And then the other question I have, because again, this is something I've worked on myself. This is something I've worked with other people, it's, there's an art to being able to answer things on the fly or process information on the fly, especially high stress or demanding environments. And so I'm wondering if you have any tips on how to do that?   Michael Hingson ** 32:12 Well, I'll answer that one first, just because you asked it. Second, we're talking about it. It's just practice. For me, a lot of times I had to when people asked questions in interviews, sometimes had to stop and think about how to answer and what to answer, because I hadn't been asked a particular question before, but the more I practiced at it, and the more I answered, the easier it became to think of doing things on the fly. And I'll and I'll tell you another on the fly story in a moment. But to go back to your first question. So the reason that I got very exposed in the media was that Guide Dogs for the Blind after a while on the 12th. I called and told them what had happened, Guide Dogs for the Blind up in Santa fell, because that's where I've gotten all of my guide dogs. And some of the people from there had visited me in the World Trade Center. So my wife reminded me that somebody was going to remember that at some point, so I called and anyway, they put out a story. And it was clear what happened, right? I was in the World Trade Center, I got out I worked in the World Trade Center was reported, I was the Mid Atlantic region sales manager for a computer company, a fortune 500 company and other things. You can't imagine the number of times that people would still say to me, what were you doing in the World Trade Center anyway? Hello, don't you read? And, and of course, the other thing was, they would say, Well, did you know what happened? And I said, No, not until later. Well, of course you didn't you couldn't see it. And so Mike, stock response to that is the last time I checked, Superman and X ray vision, were fiction. And the reality is, I was on the south side of Tower One, when it was struck. On the north side. 18 floors above be no one going down the stairs where I was had any clue what happened, eyesight had nothing to do with it. Yeah. And it is so difficult to get people to recognize that because they really don't understand that disability is not a lack of ability. And I know you mentioned Dei, earlier, but if you ask the average expert in diversity and so on about what diversity means they'll talk to you about race, gender, sexual orientation, so on and will not mention disabilities, which is so unfortunate. We're not part of the conversation. And that just bleeds over into almost everything. But the fact of the matter is, is I love to tell people, sighted people have disabilities to your biggest disability is your light dependent, and you can't do a lick if suddenly the power goes out. you'll lose all your lights until you can find a light source. Thomas Edison fix that for you guys originally, but the reality is that light dependence is just as much a disability as light independence. The only difference is that we are so technologically advanced in terms of providing light sources, that your disability gets covered up so often because you can turn on us flashlight or a smartphone or we have lights everywhere, it doesn't change the fact that the disability is there. And, and I don't mean any of that in a sarcastic or negative way. But I'm using that tool to try to start to get people to understand that disability isn't what you think it is, of course, some diversity. People say, Well, disability doesn't mean a lack of belief, because it starts with this. And I say, yeah, and tell me what it is about the word discrete, that makes it negative. You know, there's a dis indiscreet. Tell me about that, you know, and they can't, because the reality is that it has nothing to do with this disability is a characteristic. And it manifests itself in so many different ways. And very frankly, I've learned a lot of that by articulating it on various episodes of unstoppable mindset. So some people are probably getting bored with me saying it all the time. But it is still true, that we need to recognize that everyone has differences. It doesn't make any of us less than anyone else. Think   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 36:27 about this, you You're right, the majority of conversations that take place around D I have to do with race and gender. Let's just start there. Right. The majority of my conversations have to do with those, those two things are the intersection of those two things. And there's a lot of conversation that is starting to take place around like neurocognitive since right and when I when I talk with people who for example have pretty bad ADHD often present it like it's just really bad thing I'm like hold on because there's somebody who has a DD ADHD what I will say is, is it a disadvantage when I have to remember numbers absolutely terrible person cannot argue with my husband and win an argument the man can watch a movie quote the whole movie. Remember? Literally he will. He will say you remember we met at college, they'll say you remember that night we were playing spades. And so you played this card this person played and he'll go through the whole thing. Like everybody's hands on like, no, yeah, what was on TV and was I eating pickles like that might help me place the night who was there? Right? I'm a good person. I remember like broad strokes themes. But where it becomes an incredible advantage is and coming up with solutions. Because the brain constantly like I call it. I said, I say you know, it's the star blasts like a thought comes and you have 10 Other thoughts that spring from it. And then 10 others in 10 others and 10 others. If you can rein that in. If you can gain some control over that. It's a huge advantage. You talked about sidedness right and, and the advantage of being able to work in spaces with low light is somebody who's entering middle age or who's fully middle aged and whose eyesight went from perfect. To me wondering why people ever thought that six point font was a reasonable font, for any kind of label, and being very dependent suddenly on readers, especially in low light, right, looking at having to figure out the world in different ways becomes interestingly challenging. So there is this advantage. It's about looking at and this growth mindset, among other things, right. It's about being able to look at where where's there an opportunity here, as opposed to just thinking different equals bad? Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 38:54 It is, it is something that we need to do and it can I submit, it still all goes back to curiosity, the more curious we are, and the more curious we allow ourselves to be, the more we will open ourselves to being able to learn and it is just the thing that we're not taught to do from an early age. So when you went to Duke, what did you major in psychology?   Michael Hingson ** 39:21 Of course you did.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 39:22 I started off I so I was an avid reader of as Pat Conroy, and ever read any Pat Conroy his stories are all about people being incredibly twisted and broken and in one way or another family dynamics. One of the books I read was The Prince of Tides. Now, I'm going to add to this contextual story. I was born because my older sister too at the time drowned and died. It was not planned. My mother neither my parents were not planning on having a kid actually. They would have been empowered. First of all, if not for the fact that my mother's an obstetrician told her when she went to get her tubes tied the year before, wait a year, and if in a year you still want this will do it. And in that year my sister died. So I came into a family with a lot of psychological trauma from all of that. So sometime in as a young teenager, I decided I want to be a psychologist. Right, that was the decision. I am going to be a psychologist and I had it all planned out what my career was going to be like. So I, I majored in psychology I specialize in as a child psychologist, I went directly to graduate school for clinical psychology specialize in child psychology. Where did you go? The University of Texas, Texas Medical Center in Dallas. It's a mouthful, but it is. And then came to came to here to San Diego because my husband got matched for residency with UCSD and same thing went directly got a postdoc, and as a child psychologist, open a practice as a child psychologist had my kids. And then I thought, who all the stuff that was fun about interacting with kids all day long, every day suddenly was not as much fun when I had to come back home and interact with his all day. So move to working with adults very specifically in anxiety, stress, what would be called burnout nowadays, yeah. Name back then. You perfectionism and, and then I did that for a few years and fell out of love with it. And then looked at what I did love about being a therapist, and the people I really enjoyed working with and fast forward a decade. I am where I am now.   Michael Hingson ** 41:49 So how did you come up with the name noteworthy.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 41:53 My mission for my company for what I do professionally, was to build a world where women could access the highest levels of leadership and empower at such a regular level that it was no longer noteworthy. Right now is very noteworthy, right, we'll say so and so the first the second CEO, female CEO of Pepsi, the first whatever, we haven't had our first female president, I don't think we'll have one for a very long time, right, those those kinds of things. They just want to get to a place where we can do see so and so CEO of Yeah, president of Yeah. And when I rebuilt my website, I showed it to two friends who are part of my, my board of advisors, personal board of advisors, and I said maybe maybe I should come up with a new name. The company's name is life and focus coaching, right? Because that I started as a life coaching business was my first transition. And one said, why don't you do noteworthy? Just like it is in your mission? That is where you're trying to women right now. We're still very noteworthy. So that's, that's, that's the story. I just need to get some of my clients for, say not worthy. And I'm like, no, no, no, not not worthy. No, worthy. You are worthy.   Michael Hingson ** 43:14 Yeah. So no, worthy certainly is, I think, a cool title. And I'm glad that you're doing it. So tell me a little bit more about exactly what you do. And why you do it.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 43:30 These days, I spend my time I'm really lucky. We just had a holiday dinner with my San Diego clients I have, I've worked with women all around the world. But because I'm San Diego base, I have a large contingency of current and former San Diego clients. And towards the end of dinner when most of them are gone. Because I cannot do a speech about something that moves me without tearing up and I'm like, I did still want to cry again. I looked down at the table, there were about five women left. And I said I just I just need you all to know that you are my dream come true. Right, which is true. I am very privileged to get to work with women who I genuinely believe are extraordinary. I do believe they're no worthy in their own right, whether they feel that way or not. And they tend to be by design for what I'm trying to achieve for them women who are executives, usually VP to the C suite. And these are women who have a track record of excellence. They're at the top of their game. But the cost, the price to pay, the effort that they've had to put forth in order to reach where they are in their careers tends, historically to have been much higher than their male counterparts. That's just the fact it's not a judgment. It's just a fact. And so when they show up in these situations, there are some habits that need to be broken. The habit of raising your hand to do all the things you can do versus positioning yourself to do what you do best and building your brand and your reputation around your top value. Knowing how to set boundaries without feeling guilty, the a lot of women I work with have fantastic titles, but they don't always feel or sometimes it's not about feeling it is the reality, they don't always have the authority that they need, with those titles to be able to lead very effectively or with impacts. That's, that's the work we do with these women and I, I get to leverage all the things I love about being a psychologist, so building trust, getting deep, understanding what what holds people back internally, and breaking down those barriers, plus all the behavioral, like everything I learned about being a psychologist working with children, and teaching parents how to parent effectively conditioned behavior, all of that gets applied to the these workplace interactions. So I do that with individual women. And then more and more, we're getting an opportunities to also work with companies and come into companies and either help them support and elevate individual women or build programs that will allow the woman that they have on staff to show up much more effectively to be really successful, which is great for the company and tends to drive retention. It is it is it is a dream come true. Because I'm one of the few privileged people that I know of who when she was really miserable with her job just got to rewrite kind of how she wanted to work and what she wanted to do. So that is that is what I do.   Michael Hingson ** 46:43 So in working with women, and so on, where can or do men get involved in the equation at all,   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 46:49 they get involved in a couple places, a lot of the work I do around actually I'm on a, I had a committee I co founded a committee is around male ally ship. So simply teaching, helping good men understand why the experience is different for women, and helping them understand how to position themselves actively. So that they can be the men they think they are when it comes to supporting folks, in this case, women but I but I often make the case I'm like whatever I'm talking about that has to do with gender, it has to do with anybody and everybody this is human dynamics. So men have this like really great opportunity to kind of take off blinders and see situations for what they are and intervene and a couple of capacities. One capacity is simply sometimes to call out things that they see that have been normalized. Because as women when we call them out, or label this hysterical or emotional or too sensitive, or bra burners, whatever, just you know, another great way for men to step in is by using sponsorship really sitting there and opening doors. That's literally what sponsorship is, it's what we all do. You know somebody you know, you like them, you know that they do a good job like you recommend them to other people. That's what sponsorship is all about. So being able to do that having conversations with other men about stuff, right these are these are this is where men can really play an incredibly powerful role. So I we run trainings for male allies, which are fun. i It's a five part training and we don't start talking to them about techniques until we talk to them about constantly talk to a bunch of women and get their perspective. And then we'll come back then they'll say I didn't realize like, I never thought about the fact that when I leave on a business trip, I just need to like, take one pair of shoes plus my comfortable tennis shoes and think about this, but she needs an extra 30 minutes to get ready because there's an expectation that she's going to look a certain way. We talk about roadblocks all the reason why men despite having the best of intentions, despite like morally really being like solid human beings might not take action. And again, these are human patterns. They don't just pertain to gender, but things like being afraid of screwing up. What if I say what if I'm trying to help and I say or do something that's wrong and I make things worse, or being afraid to step in and do something nice for somebody who doesn't want your help? And I'm my guess is that comes up a lot when we talk about ABLE like ableism right? People somebody who might try to open the door for somebody or help somebody or give their seat another person I don't need you to do this. I don't need your help. Right and so that's another fear and of course the third one is what if I stand up and speak up and because of that I lose my status that I get I get told them all these things too sensitive to whoa too. And and then I start losing opportunities and to men and Generally, I'll say, those are all good things to be afraid of, they will all happen. Like every single one of them, you will put your foot in your mouth, you will make a mistake and trying to do something helpful, you will screw it up, you will one day try to help somebody who's going to look at you and be pissed off that you tried to help them because they didn't need your help. And you will get called out by somebody somewhere and at the end of the day, you'll survive, like you will just be fine. It's uncomfortable. And that's just the price of showing up for people. It's uncomfortable sometimes.   Michael Hingson ** 50:36 It gets back to what we talked about earlier. How much of that? And the answer is, I'm sure a lot how much of that is learned behavior?   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 50:46 I mean, I think most of it is learned. Yeah. I you know, and I actually will say this, I think most of the non action is learned behavior. If you ever watched a little kids, I mean, children, by definition are humans, by definition are egocentric, and children are like the, the the ultimate egocentric, like stage of human beings are completely focused on their world. And what's happening with kids are, we talked about this, like, relatively curious. When you teach them basic manners, it comes kind of naturally to them to open up doors to help to do things. We teach people to be afraid, we teach people to worry about making mistakes, we teach people to like stay in your lane, just stay in your lane, right. And then that gets carried like, to our adult selves and our adult behaviors.   Michael Hingson ** 51:38 Yeah, and that's, of course, the issue, we, we don't learn to be more open, we don't learn to be more curious. And we don't learn to be willing to step out or step, step back, and then step out and explore.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 51:57 And the same things that I teach men, by the way, I teach women to do for other women, and I teach women to do for other people, period, I am very selective. And one thing about all my clients is, they have to be the kind of women who will lift while lift others while climbing, they cannot be women who are going to get to the top, and we're going to guard their place. And we're going to put other people through the same hazing through the same, like, hurdles that they face just because well, I had to. Mm hmm. So this is a skill set to teach. And he's just about being a good human. I really like ultimately, it's what it comes down to.   Michael Hingson ** 52:40 What's the most important skill you think that a woman should learn as, as they're working in advancing and integrating in society,   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 52:49 I will say that data shows that the most important skill a woman needs to learn for advancement is visibility, and how to build visibility. But what it comes down to, if we tap into like my, my experience, as a psychologist, what it comes down to is the ability to recognize and own what your true value is. Right. And that's such a gift. Once you do that for yourself as a as a woman in the workplace. First of all, yes, you can build visibility. So you can you can speak about what you bring to the table, you can articulate how that skill set can really drive impact in certain spaces, you can start building like your reputation as an expert, or your expertise in a field, like all of those things are really good. But the back end of that is also it's about owning it. It's about walking into the world and being clear about what you have to add to the conversation into the space. And to do that without false humility, or a sense of shame. And for a lot of women and a lot of girls, we're taught to not do that little girls from the time from the time they're in, like they're in sandboxes, I would say are taught to be collaborative and be helpful and share and give it to to their own detriment. So I've worked with women all around the world. And on every single continent, every single basic, general culture, larger culture, every woman tells me Well, in my culture, in my family, it's not acceptable to speak about myself, it's not acceptable to say I'm really good at this. It's not acceptable to say, well, you know, part of the reason we won that game, part of the reason we moved the needle forward on this project was because I was able to dot dot, dot. But if as women we learned to do this, not only will it benefit us, but it actually benefits the people we work with and for because by being very clear about what our top skills are and how best to leverage them, what we're actually communicating to people is how we can help them And the best way to help them.   Michael Hingson ** 55:03 And the reality is sometimes to break in as being a part of a team is to really be willing to say not in an egotistical way, but to say, what skills you bring and why you're a valuable part of the team. Yep,   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 55:17 I was just having a conversation with a client of mine, who's a returning client. And she recently got a promotion, which is why she came back. And she has she's suddenly working on we talked about, like, her team is all pros, meaning they're like the top of the top. And initially, she's like, well, I don't even know what I bring to the conversation. They're all so autonomous, in some degree need to go back to the basics. What is it that you do really well? How can that skill set support? You support them? And how can you position that and rethink about what your value is to this team and communicate it to them so that you can support them what she's done very well in six months. And she's just onboarding a new, a new team member. She said, What should I do to help him integrate better? And I said, ask him the same questions. What does he love doing that he's really good at? How does he? How does he want those skills? Leverage? Where can you make the greatest impact? How does that fit in your team communicate that we build? The sense of togetherness? Those   Michael Hingson ** 56:16 kinds of questions will tell her more about the person she's talking with than most anything else she could do.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 56:24 And time and time again, it pays off.   Michael Hingson ** 56:27 Of course it does. It has as it should. So is there a book in you? Have you written a book? Are you thinking about it? Yes,   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 56:34 I have co authored chapters in many books. There is a book in me, I want to write a book that will be called. Now you see me about this idea of visibility and everything that goes into it. I don't know when I'm going to have the time to do this isn't that every would be one of the author's excuse. If you talk to my very first coach who I hired in 2018. He would he would tell you all summer has been saying I've been telling her to write a book since 2018 24. I don't know No,   Michael Hingson ** 57:08 you just have to decide that that's the priority and take the time to do it. That is true, then it will happen at the right time. If it matters enough, it will for matters to you or to whoever you'll you'll make it happen. Well, this has been fun. And I really have enjoyed doing it. I know you've got children to go pick up so I don't want to make you too late for that. So I want to thank you again for being with us and doing this episode with us. I appreciate it.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 57:38 And Michael, thank you. It's a delightful way to end the year. So I really, I have very, very much enjoyed our conversation.   Michael Hingson ** 57:46 Well, this has been fun. We'll have to do another one. We don't even need to wait till you you have a book but I want to thank you. I want to thank you all for listening to us on unstoppable mindset please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening. And please transmit your opinions, your views your thoughts Melisandre would like to know and I would love to know what you think so feel free to do that. If people want to reach out to you and possibly work with you or usually as a coach, how do they do that?   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 58:11 There are two way places to find me one is the website which is noteworthy inc.co So noteworthy i n c.co. And then the other one is LinkedIn. So I'm there under D at whatever Dr. Alessandra Wall, but those are best places to reach me   Michael Hingson ** 58:30 and Alessandra A l e s s a n d r a Yep.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 58:34 And while is like the Pink Floyd album, W a l l, W   Michael Hingson ** 58:38 L. Well, thanks again all of you for listening. I'd love to hear from you. Please email me email, email me at MichaelHi at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael Hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n i love to hear from you really appreciate your thoughts. And Alessandra, for you and for everyone listening if you know of anyone who might be a good podcast guest or you'd like to suggest anyone, please reach out. I'm always looking for folks. And since we've both mentioned it Alessandra and I are speakers, we are always looking for speaking opportunities. She wants to go to the Middle East, I'll go there, but I want to make sure it's a little bit more peaceful when I go but I'd love to speak so if anybody knows of any speaking opportunities, let us both know, right? Yep, please. Are we speaking? We appreciate it. So again, Alessandra, for you one more time. Thank you very much. This has been fun.   Dr. Alessandra Wall ** 59:39 Thank you so much. Have a wonderful rest of your day.   Michael Hingson ** 59:48 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Hey Friends~  We welcome Michael Hingston, as our guest!  He is an extraordinary human who has been blind since birth.  Andy today, he shares his incredible story of escaping the World Trade Center with his guide dog, Roselle.  He offers  insights for parents of children with disabilities.  He will shift your perspective on disabilities and how you can empower your children to thrive! Today's inspirational guest will tell first hand what his parents did that helped him be strong, independent,  and enabled in the presence of disability.      Michael declares, “ Whether a disability is present or not, “the fact of the matter is that every child, every person, has gifts.  And as parents, you need to let those gifts develop in your child and you need to help encourage them.”  You will surely learn something today. I know I did!     Always cheering you on!  Dinalynn CONTACT the Host, Dinalynn:  hello@thelanguageofplay.com   ABOUT THE GUEST: Michael Hingson, blind since birth, was born to sighted parents who raised him with a can-do attitude., Michael rode a bike and learned to do advanced math in his head! He moved to California and attended college receiving a master's degree in Physics and a secondary teaching credential. Michael worked for high-tech companies in management roles until September 11, 2001 when he and his guide dog, Roselle, escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the WTC. They were then thrust into the international limelight where Michael began to share lessons of trust, courage, and teamwork as a public speaker. Mike is the author of the #1 NY Times Bestseller: “Thunder dog” – selling over 2.5 million copies. In 2014 he published his 2nd book “Running with Roselle”, A story for our youth. In August of 2024 Mike's third book, Live Like A Guide Dog, will be published. It can be preordered at https://www.christianbook.com/stories-overcoming-adversity-moving-forward-faith/9781496476555/pd/476555. Mike has Spoken to the world's elite including George Bush, and Larry King. He has appeared on hundreds of TV and Radio programs. Now he is hired by major organizations Speaking on perseverance, the importance of Teamwork and Trust, Moving from Diversity to Inclusion, and offering Adaptive Technology Training. CONTACT THE GUEST: speaker@michaelhingson.com   RESOURCES from The Language Of Play Sign Up for Free Summer - Parent Group Coaching:  Available Summer 2024 ONLY!   June 27,  July 24,  August 20   -  Register Here:   https://dinalynnr.systeme.io/group-coaching-2ddd5182-38d33cf4   Let's have a conversation about your thoughts, concerns, & wonderings!  Sign up for my newsletter! Newsletter Opt-in Sign up for FREE 21 Days of Encouragement in your inbox! Encouragement Sign-up Join my new FREE Facebook Community HERE! Sign up for a 15 min "Let's Meet Session" on zoom!  Let's Meet Session For Speaking Engagements or For 1:1 or Group Parent Coaching (virtual or live), contact me at hello@thelanguageofplay.com   If You Liked This Episode, You Will Want To Listen To These Episodes:  125 Kelley Coleman: Everything No One Tells You About Parenting a Disabled Child 147 What? Your Child Can't Read - And Has A HIGH IQ?? Lynne Roe shares a success story with dyslexia and dysgraphia 155 Does Your Language Build Courage In Your Child? Here Are 12 Examples of Courage-Building Phrases! 154 A Single Father of Triplets Shares His Success Story. Happy Father's Day! 156 Raising Your Creative Independent Thinker? Sharon Fillmore Helps You With These Wonderful Curious Children!    

From The Heart, Inspiring Stories told by Inspiring Women In this powerful episode of "From the Heart," host Katie engages in a deeply moving and inspiring conversation with Genelle Guzman-McMillan, a remarkable 9/11 survivor who found herself in the heart of the unimaginable tragedy that unfolded in Tower One. Genelle shares her gripping personal account of being inside the tower as it collapsed on that fateful day. As Genelle recounts her harrowing experience, listeners will gain profound insights into the resilience of the human spirit in the face of adversity. This episode goes beyond the surface, delving into the aftermath of surviving such a traumatic event and the strength it takes to rebuild one's life. Genelle's story serves as a testament to the enduring power of hope, courage, and the indomitable will to overcome even the darkest of moments. Whether you're a 9/11 history enthusiast, seeking inspiration in the face of adversity, or simply looking to connect with stories that touch the heart, this episode of "From the Heart" is a must-listen. Join Katie and Genelle as they navigate through the depths of survival, resilience, and the transformative journey towards healing. Get Genelle's Book, Angel in the Rubble on Amazon: https://a.co/d/444ItOM Follow MOMnation and connect with all of our podcasts here: https://direct.me/momnationusa Connect with Katie at: www.katiehallelambert.com Brought to you by Team EvoAZ at eXp Realty. Music and Lyrics by Susan Goyette. Have a topic you want us to cover? Comment below to share your idea! http://MOMnationUSA.com

ennifer Sands' journey begins on 9/11 when she tragically loses her husband in Tower One of the World Trade Center. Initially relying on prayer, she grapples with anger after his loss. However, a turning point occurs when a Salvation Army bell ringer places something in her pocket, transforming her story from tragedy to triumph. This powerful story of how God, through unexpected moments, draws Jennifer closer to Himself. #healing #911 #twintowers #jennifersands https://youtu.be/InNrrN2CKe8 --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/nancy-sabato/message

On this timely episode, coming the day after Tom Brady Day at Gillette Stadium and on 9/11, we speak with someone familiar with both topics, Joe Andruzzi. We talk to Joe about college and getting to the NFL and how the team had fun with a skinny, 4th string rookie QB in 2000.  Joe then gives us a detailed account of he and his family's thoughts and feelings on 9/11. (Joe has 3 three brothers who were FDNY including one who ran into Tower One.) Mr. Kraft had the foresight to make his brothers captains for the first game back after the September 11th attacks, 9/23/01 vs The Jets.  As Pats fans know, September 23rd is also a milestone day in the history of the Patriots. Joe talks about this and explains the team's process moving from Drew Bledsoe behind center to Tom Brady and their drive to Super Bowl XXXVI.  We also have some fun conversing about Super Bowl 38 and compare the two Patriots starting quarterbacks Joe protected in New England with the gunslinger he paved the way for prior in Green Bay, Brett Farve.Take a listen to this emotional yet entertaining episode.

Hello everyone and welcome to a very special 100th episode of the Resilient Journey podcast. Today I'm joined by Chris Platt. Chris was on the 40th floor of Tower One on the morning of September 11th, 2001. Today's episode focuses on the resilience of a nation and the will to survive of those involved in the day that changed America forever. The Resilient Journey podcast is a Resilience Think Tank production.   Be sure to follow The Resilient Journey!  We sure do appreciate it! Learn more about the Resilience Think Tank here. Want to learn more about Mark? Click here or on LinkedIn or Twitter. Special thanks to Bensound for the music.

BCK? Right. We get to learn all about that during our conversation this time with Milam Miller. Milam began life in Texas, but has moved around quite a bit over his life. He always has had some interests in sports as he will tell us.   During his time in New York years ago he dreamed of securing a job with his favorite baseball team, the New York Yankees. He decided that he didn't really want to see “the behind the scenes” of the Yankees or any other team. He ended up more on the sales and promotions side of sports.   His jobs eventually took him to the UK, but eventually, the pandemic happened. For the first two years of the pandemic, he went back to Texas. In 2022 his wife's job caused the two of them to move to Toronto Ontario where they are today.   As he looked for things to do at the start of the pandemic he hit on what became for him a watch phrase, “BCK”, (Be Confident and Kind) As he describes, what was a watch phrase for him has grown not only into a coaching business for him, but an actual movement. I leave it to Milam to tell us about that. I think why I say that there is no doubt that Milam is definitely unstoppable.     About the Guest:   “Be Confident & Kind” (or BCK) was a personal mantra that Milam Miller created in July 2020 in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic. Life was uncertain and he knew one thing to be true–showing up in a confident & kind manner kept his inner light burning bright.   What was once a private motivating statement is now a public movement. Milam launched BCK in order to offer his whole self to organizations looking to invest in its people.    BCK believes in a confident and kind approach to work, in which people are put before profits. A coachable workforce - that is already skilled and, hopefully, well trained - will, in fact, yield higher profit margins. Milam is an expert in encouraging leaders and cultivating collaboration amongst teams, especially innately competitive sales teams.   When he's not facilitating in the boardroom or on 1:1 coaching calls, Milam can be found teaching in the yoga studio. One of the greatest gifts in life is to be able to move somebody - whether that be physically, mentally or emotionally - to a place of transformation.     Ways to connect with Milam:   Website: https://www.bckconsulting.org/ LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/milam-miller-bck Instagram: @milamrmiller   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes      Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, howdy, everyone. I am Michael Hingson, sometimes known as Mike Hingson. We were just having a discussion about that our guest and I because if I say Mike Hingson People always want to say Kingson instead of Hingson. A little factoid but it's actually Hingson with an H. So I've learned to say Michael Hingson took a while to figure that out. But here we are. Anyway, I would like to welcome you to unstoppable mindset, where inclusion, diversity in the unexpected meet. We've got a lot of things about a lot of that today. I really appreciate you listening in and hope that you like what we have to go through today. I'd like you to meet our guest Milam Miller, who lives in Toronto, be confident and kind. And he's going to tell us about that as we go through the hour or so that we spend. But for now, Milan, I want to welcome you and thank you for joining us.   Milam Miller ** 02:13 Yeah, thank you, Michael for having me. I'm very happy to chat with you this evening. My time here in Toronto. I have learned how to say that Toronto, they kind of the words mumbled together. I'm getting better at it. I'm practicing.   Michael Hingson ** 02:27 It's not like in Maryland is Baltimore.   Milam Miller ** 02:29 That's right. That's right. Yeah, Baltimore. So yeah, it's a pleasure to be with you. I love your story and what this podcast is all about and anxious to dig into to BCK and what that means to me. And hopefully anyone listening today that might be intrigued by our mission.   Michael Hingson ** 02:48 Of course everybody always wanting to be different and all that. We know it's not pronounced Worchester in Massachusetts, it's Wista.   Milam Miller ** 02:56 There you go. I don't know that one. I haven't been there yet. But maybe someday I'll get oh, you should   Michael Hingson ** 03:00 go. It's less. It's actually Wister. But of course, when you live in Massachusetts, it's Wista.   Milam Miller ** 03:05 Wisdom is the same as is, as in Texas, we say wish to share sauce is like the Western sauce is the same thing or no.   Michael Hingson ** 03:14 Well, same spelling, but yeah. But in Massachusetts, it's when you live there, wisdom,   Milam Miller ** 03:21 wisdom. Okay, let's   Michael Hingson ** 03:21 see, you're gonna make it you might make it as a Massachusetts person yet. Well, thanks again for being here. Why don't we start by you telling us a little bit about you growing up and kind of the early myeloma and all that sort of stuff?   Milam Miller ** 03:35 Sure. Happy to, you know, rewind the clock. So I tell everyone, I am a Texan in Toronto. Originally, from the big great state of Texas, I grew up in a small town. I was actually born in a town that everyone knows called Waco, Texas. Unfortunately, it's made headlines for not always the best of reasons. Although I'd like to think Chip and Joanna Gaines and other people in the Waco communities have really put it on the map for delightful things like making your home more, more enjoyable to be in. So it's Chris, did   Michael Hingson ** 04:12 you ever know Chip and Joanna, you know, I   Milam Miller ** 04:14 can't say I haven't met them. So if this podcast reaches them, hey, Chip. Hey, Joanna. i Let's let's meet old friends. I love what you've done in the community. Yeah, I still have family in Waco. My grandparents had been married for 70 years. They're both in their 90s now and sharpest attack. I'm very grateful to have them in my life. They highschool sweethearts met at Baylor. My father comes from that side of the family. He also went to Baylor met my mom there and then here Here I am. So you would think that I would have gone to Baylor but we decided to move south to Central Texas and I became a Longhorn a proud one at that. So I bleed orange, the School of Matthew McConaughey and many others.   Michael Hingson ** 04:59 So I voc several years ago, or a couple of meetings at the San Francisco Lighthouse, excuse me, the Fort Worth Lighthouse for the Blind. And the CEO is from TCU. So I obligated to talk about Go Frogs, you know,   Milam Miller ** 05:16 there you go. That my mom is from Fort Worth and my in laws, actually, my sister in law and brother in law are both TCU alum. They were at the national championship this year. So I was happy to see them so much as it hurt a little bit that Texas wasn't back there. I was happy to see a Texas school make it that far.   Michael Hingson ** 05:35 Yeah. Well, I was disappointed that USC didn't go all the way. But you know, we try. There you go. There you go. There is next year.   Milam Miller ** 05:42 That's right. There's, you know, that's what gives Dallas Cowboys fans hope. There's always next year.   Michael Hingson ** 05:47 In Massachusetts. I lived there for three years. And I remember, every year when the Red Sox started their season. In the first game, if they lost, everyone started saying wait till next year. Hmm. Tough crowd. Tough crowd. That's right. So anyway, so you became a Longhorn? That's right.   Milam Miller ** 06:09 You've got it. I studied finance at Macomb School of Business at UT Austin. And I gotta be honest, Michael, it was not for me, I hated it. Without a shadow of the doubt, I, my dad was a finance guy. And I remember I recall a time there being a lot of pressure. Within the McCombs community, it had the top rated accounting program in the country. And it was a big pipeline to go to the big four accounting firms. And then many people, of course, studied finance, too, and wanted to go work on Wall Street. Coincidentally, I was in college in 2008, during the financial crisis, the big collapse. And I didn't honor that gut intuition that told me finance wasn't for me, I thought I wanted to do manage mix, I love people. And I was told that was too woowoo, or maybe not practical enough. And marketing, I found really interesting, but again, also was told there's so many marketers out there. So I didn't, didn't honor my own intuition. And that was a great learning lesson, in my own life, to, to get in touch with my intuition and not neglect it like I did at that point in time.   Michael Hingson ** 07:24 You know, we all too often tend not to, to pay attention to our intuition. To our own consternation, I love to use the example of I watch or not watch, but I play a lot of Trivial Pursuit. I haven't so much lately, but invariably, both for me and for other people. While we're playing it. Somebody asks a question. And the answer pops into a person's head, whoever's having the question asked of them, and they go, No, it can't be that easy. And they don't answer it that way. And invariably, what popped into their head was the right answer. Mm hmm. And that happens so often. It's all because we really do know more than we think we know. We just don't always tend to want to pay attention and recognize that maybe our intuition and God and all that are are really giving us the answers. So I'm glad that you learned a lesson from that.   Milam Miller ** 08:21 That's right. That's right. And I will say this, I don't know if I knew the right answer that point. But I knew what it was. And I knew it wasn't finance, right and it takes doing the work you're doing the classwork because I got a D in that class, if I recall correctly, that I was like this, this this thing for me. So it was a great experience to set me on a path that was more in alignment with my childhood dreams and aspirations, which ultimately led me not into finance, but into the sports career. And that's where I got my start.   Michael Hingson ** 08:54 And so what did you do in the sports world?   Milam Miller ** 08:57 Yeah, thank you for asking. Good question. So bad news. I'm a Yankees fan. I heard you mentioned the Red Sox earlier. And you're wearing my favorite color red today. So if you are a Red Sox fan, I apologize. My I'm a Dodger fan, but that's okay. Well, that makes more sense. But to all the Red Sox listeners out there, they've won a couple championships. You know, since then, you know, the the rivalry is, is maybe not as heated or the curse as it once was. Right. But I grew up in big Derek Jeter fan. And also being a fan of the University of Texas, Roger Clemens came over to the Yankees. And I still remember when I was a kid sitting right field behind Paul O'Neill, and just being in the bleachers, and I was like, This is so epic. And they were winners. They were they were a team. And there were so many great leaders on that team. Yeah. And I've always been enamored by by leadership and and teamwork. So I thought I'm gonna move to New York and work for the New York Yankees, done, signed, sealed delivered very clear and specific ambition. What unfolded for me was not that As our life life journey happens i Upon graduating ut I, my criteria for a job was twofold. Live in New York City and work in sports. My entry point into the industry was actually through an agency that did sponsorship activation. So if if modells is a sponsor of the New York Yankees, I know a lot of people know that retailer in the New York area. Or let's say it's Miller Lite as their official beer. I was handling a lot of those contracts, but more specifically in the golf space. Yeah. And what else? I'm sure you're thinking, Yeah, I've maybe I've got you on the edge of your seat. I actually had a colleague who worked for the Yankees, and she had come over to our agency and hearing her firsthand accounts of what it was like to to work for a family run business, this time burners, right and kind of the change of power at that time from Mr Steinbrenner passing away to his sons. I decided I made the conscious decision at that point in time. That that was my passion. And a lot of my favorite players I mentioned Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettit, they were all retiring and I didn't really want to see under the hood of the business side of things my passion in a lot of it I you know, it's come out in recent years the captain the the Docu series about Derek Jeter just about his his contract negotiation as he was aging. I thought maybe it's better I keep that my passion and I can go there and ignorance is bliss. And I cheer on my team without knowing the politics and inner workings of it being my my employer. And so, yeah, I was open to opportunities in New York's a great market to be in if you're open to opportunities,   Michael Hingson ** 11:46 yes. And so what did you do? Who,   Milam Miller ** 11:50 so what did I do? I did the work I was responsible for activating omega the or omega however you pronounce it the luxury timepiece company. I always tell people this is a fun case study. People know of omega from the Olympics. They've had a long standing association with the touchpads in the pools when Michael Phelps fingers hit the touchpad and he wins gold. Or when you same bolt leans across the line and wins yet another gold. So from a marketing perception, a lot of people thought of omega as a timekeeping company right there. They're accurate, precise, but they didn't think of them as a luxury timepiece, business. So trying to pull away market share from Rolex Omega decided to sponsor golf and activate around the major championships. So I would literally go around Michael and be wearing a red polo such as your own, because that's omegas brand colors, and I would set the Swiss clocks, and I'd put them on the first tee potensi the putting green and I had to make sure that they were on time and the most. The irony in all of this, Michael is that I am not a punctual person at all, I am chronically late, despite best efforts getting from point A to point B I always underestimate time. So it was kind of a running joke in my close circles and family. How the heck did you get that job, you are never on time. You got to just stretch and grow. That's it. That's it. And it did stretch me I was fortunate to travel all across the US to very remote golf, country clubs, golf course locations, and I loved it. It was it actually taught me to be on time. So I think I was on time for our call today, which is good news. It's more when transports involves that I struggle, but I've gotten better over the years so that was a good learning lesson for me.   Michael Hingson ** 13:44 So you went around to golf courses all over the country and set time pieces and made sure they were on time right? That's right I may go see   Milam Miller ** 13:53 Yeah, manage their brand identity and it was a wonderful program to work on. But it was very much rinse and repeat and I'm a type of person that there's a time and place for certainty but I also crave variety and while there was variety in the the the courses that these tournaments were held at, I was looking for a little bit more of a way for my extroverted self or outgoing self to be on actually the sales side and not just on the fulfillment side activating and managing but actually having a seat at the table negotiating the rights because I got to see what rights they got on and it got me curious a core value man like Well, why didn't you negotiate rights to that or why does this sponsor have that and we don't and so that's when I realized I wanted to make a jump into in a very niche and sponsorship sales in sports but really just working on behalf of a team are right told her similar to the Yankees but not the Yankees again, they're my passion, but somebody else and all that to say it is me being open to opportunity. I got connected with a gentleman and who owns a professional football club, aka soccer team overseas. And he sold me on his vision, which was to build a modern day Coliseum in Rome. That's where the team played. And coincidentally, I had gone there when I was 15. My sister graduated high school she was 18. And we did a trip for city I ever stepped foot in Europe, capital city, and the Eternal City at that. And I didn't even know the team existed when I was 15 years old. So to hear this owner laying out his vision for a new stadium I was I was bought in I was I was drinking quite literally from you know, the Roman Aqua docks, I was like, I want to take your your vision to market and sell that on your behalf and was fortunate to do so.   Michael Hingson ** 15:46 So when did this happen?   Milam Miller ** 15:49 So I went to work for the ownership group previous one of AS Roma spoiler alert, back in 2016. No, excuse me, actually, 2015 and 2015 is when I went to work for them. I moved abroad in 2016.   Michael Hingson ** 16:05 And how long were you there?   Milam Miller ** 16:07 Yeah, so there specifically is a tricky answer. Because I didn't actually move to Rome. I spent the majority of my time in Rome while I was sorting out a British visa. But this was around the time the Brexit vote happened and getting a visa was a very complex process. I also unfortunately did not speak Italian. So me being in Rome, was not the wisest business move being on the commercial side of the business. However, many European football clubs Manchester United being in Manchester, they had a commercial office in London and we saw an opportunity in the market to be the first Italian team to plant roots in London and so that's where I relocated to   Michael Hingson ** 16:53 Wow Well, that was was easier as long as you can speak the language so you you didn't have to learn how to do New Jersey Italian you know, forget about it and all that sort of stuff.   Milam Miller ** 17:06 That's right. That's right. I   Michael Hingson ** 17:07 learned didn't learn good Italian.   Milam Miller ** 17:09 Yeah, perfect, though. Everything was perfect.   Michael Hingson ** 17:11 That's a nice thing. Yeah. So how long were you over there? Because you're not there now.   Milam Miller ** 17:21 That's right. So I'm, I can hear my wife saying my lawn, land the plane, hurry up, move abroad. 2016 And, again, did the work you gotta you gotta be in it, live it to Yeah, to figure it out. And a lot of life happened in those years. And my sister was diagnosed with a brain tumor in 2017. That a lot of the forward progress I was feeling it kind of stopped it to be president and attend to those needs. In 2018, we made a really deep run in the UEFA Champions League, which is the top teams across not only Italy, in Germany and France and Spain, really all across Europe. They're they're playing one another so it was outside of our domestically. And we beat Barcelona they had a player you may know a guy named Lionel Messi, who today announced he's going to take his talents to South Beach, like another athlete did about a decade ago. And so Messi Messi is headed to inter Miami David Beckham's club. And we beat we beat FC Barcelona in the Champions League quarterfinals only to get knocked out in the semi finals by Liverpool, which also had a Boston based owner, my my, our ownership group was out of Boston as well. And so it allowed us on the commercial side of the business to really capitalize on the performance side, the momentum the team was having, almost going to the Champions League final to secure some sponsors. And that was a really, really fruitful time for us commercially. And we were still riding that wave until 2020. And you know what happened then?   Michael Hingson ** 19:02 Yeah, those little bugs started escaping from somewhere.   Milam Miller ** 19:07 That's right. That's right. Now there were other like challenges that the team I'd be remiss not to mention, but that's the nature I think   Michael Hingson ** 19:14 it's the nature I think any team and it's got its ups and downs,   Milam Miller ** 19:18 or any business for that matter. Even Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 19:20 yeah. So where were you living at the time?   Milam Miller ** 19:23 So I was still in London when the pandemic hit and you know, I think about the, the rate with which my life the speed with which my life was moving at my goal, the travel we were doing living in London on Europe's back doorstep. I think that March, my wife's birthday is in early March. We had a ski trip planned and that ski trip did not happen at least for us. We we canceled I know some people ended up going and getting stuck and that's a story for another day. But yeah, we we were in the proper UK lockdown. On from middle of March until July when they lifted it and then there was a whole start stop situation from then on.   Michael Hingson ** 20:08 Yeah. And, of course, there were additional lockdowns and all sorts of challenges, because we were still learning a lot about COVID. I think we're still gonna continue to learn a lot about COVID. But we are a lot better situated than we were.   Milam Miller ** 20:24 Absolutely, absolutely. It was a time of unprecedented change. And I think, you know, from my, my story change is something that collectively we as humans went through, at least on this planet, the collective human experience of dealing with COVID. And it impacted us all in unique ways, different ways. And changes is hard. It's scary. And it's it's I think some people are still wrestling with the Yep, permanency of changes that cause myself included, my career changed drastically from that point onward.   Michael Hingson ** 21:03 Well, so when did you leave London and I guess, move to Toronto, or excuse me, Toronto?   Milam Miller ** 21:10 Yeah, there was an intervening step. We hopped home to Texas for two years, 2021 and 2022. This Toronto opportunity came about through my wife's employer, the same one she had in London, they've been very good to us and grown her. But Toronto is new. We've only been here since the start of the year. And I I've been at my own business for the last year, it was something I launched following a pandemic pivot that didn't work out. And then really realizing it was time to trust my gut instincts and that intuition that I got connected with in college. And by this point in my career, I was like, it's time to bet on myself and take a leap of faith. And so that's the you. That's how I got here.   Michael Hingson  21:57 So I have a couple questions, because I really want to get into change and all that. But I'm just really curious. Sure. It was announced a couple of days ago that the PGA and the other organization what is it? Live golf? Yeah, live golf. Yeah. have merged. What do you think about that, given especially all the furor over the last year, you've had enough connection with golf, and I assume you got to know, golfers and things like that. But what do you think   Milam Miller ** 22:24 about that? Yeah, you know, great question. This will be it's all still so fresh that yeah, that news was announced yesterday. I got. I saw it first. I get Wall Street Journal, email alerts. And I think I spit my coffee out, Michael. I was like, wait, what?   Michael Hingson ** 22:39 I saw it on a CNN alert. Why what?   Milam Miller ** 22:44 Yeah, yeah, I posted it on my Instagram pretty immediately, because I just was so recent. I do have friends who are played golf in college are professional caddies. I am friendly with players on the tour. I don't have close friends. But obviously it's you know, it's humans that do extraordinary things. And that's what they're out the golfers that are out there are all human and we're all on a work in progress. So what do I think about it? I think that it's really unfortunate if I'm honest, that again, I my calling card is leadership. I believe in dynamic leadership and servant hearted leadership. And without calling out certain names, I think there was pressure by the tour as a as a body a governing body and entity, not one person in particular. But I think the the tour is a collective as a unit, to keep people loyal because of the history and legacy of the body and to deter them from moving to a new flashy, different format that paid better or paid well, with also questions about where that money was coming from. And it was, in fact, sports washing. So it's for them to turn a blind eye now to that argument around sports washing, and is it clean money or dirty money to then take the money? It feels? Feels a little disingenuous, like I would if the PGA Tour were on this call or was listening to this. This podcast, I would say, what are your core values? What are your corporate values? And how did that influence or impact this decision making process?   Michael Hingson ** 24:26 I'll be anxious to see how it goes over time because I think we're only starting to hear the different sides of this and what it's going to do. But I know that the whole issue of flipped Golf was was all about money. And the the problem with a lot of professional sports, it seems to me is it's way too much about money. I appreciate that players and so on do need to earn a living and they and the better they are the more they ought to earn. But I also think that there is just so much based on money, that we're losing sight of the games And then the activities themselves. And it's just kind of the nature of the beast, I think it's coming into the NCAA now with of course, the better players who can now get money in, we're going completely away from the sports. And it's just becoming much more money oriented, I'm sure that there will be people who will disagree with me and yell at me, and, and so on. But when do we get back to the basics of the competition of the game, you know, in the Olympics have done the same thing and so many same things in so many ways to that. It's been be it's become very political with some countries and organizations have turned a blind eye to it. When do we get back to the basic core values, as you just said,   Milam Miller ** 25:46 Well, there's there's so many stakeholders involved in sport as we know it today. And as somebody who worked closely with sponsors for years, I can only imagine if I been representing either entity, pitching from a PGA Tour perspective of, you know, us, this is what we're about, as opposed to live golf, hey, we're new, we're going to do things different, we're going to do it better for you sponsors, we're gonna give you better access to players or whatever it may be, you know, they've, they've been at odds. So now that now that the two entities were competing against one another, now that they're, they're merging, let's think of it as a classic m&a deal. It's two different corporate cultures, it's two different sponsorship sales. Now, it's two different. So there's going to need to be a learning and development function or core curriculum to really refer to these two bodies, and also do it in the name of caring about your people, your employees, not just the players on the tour, that maybe you feel wronged because a lot of them do. But I just I worry that there could be layoffs in the name of efficiency and productivity. And that's so unfair for either entity and and skilled people that have talents that they could bring to grow the game, because I do think at the end of the day, some fans will be happy, this is a way to grow the game in a way that's that's centralized or organized. Sure. But there's a lot of stakeholders, again, that are going to be impacted by this. So just approaching it from a place of care, I think is really important.   Michael Hingson ** 27:24 I agree, I think it's going to be very interesting to see how golf as an overall sport, now changes. So we have one entity again, but it's a completely different entity by any definition. And I hope that it changes for the better, but I don't know enough to be able to comment on that. But I've hope that in the long run, or as they say, at the end of the day, that that people will find that it really was an improvement for golf. And that has to be by actions, not by words. So we'll see what happens.   Milam Miller ** 28:02 That's right. Time will tell. Time will tell. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 28:05 But you know, you, you talk about change. And we've we've both experienced a lot of change. And I hear people say all the time, the change is all around us. It's there. But yet, as you said, it's very hard. Why is changed so hard? What is it that we have learned or not learned? That makes change so hard? Especially even in the light of the fact that it's all around us all the time?   Milam Miller ** 28:35 Hmm. Yeah. It's such a good question. One thing I have Michael, I think people find change hard or exhausting or challenging is because it's outside of our comfort zones. As simple as that may sound, we we get so accustomed to doing something a certain way or conditioned to do it a certain way that it's, it becomes second nature, just what we know. And if that is taken away from us, or we're told there's a different way to do it. There's a bit of resistance or agitation. I'd love to know your perspective on this just given up being on this planet, you have a little bit more wisdom than me. Some years, you're a couple years ahead of me. But I yeah, I find that change is hard for people. Because once we get good at something that will that feels nice. And so to to change it up. If it's not serving us, we start to second guess or wonder if we've made the wrong decision, instead of sitting with the discomfort and agitation to a place of actually growing our comfort zones. And I think that that's really where where growth happens is out of our comfort zone.   Michael Hingson ** 29:46 Yeah, I think the the issue is that our comfort zone needs to be broader. So I remember after September 11, I've talked about it here a few times. I started hearing people We'll say we got to get back to normal, we got to get back to normal, we got to get back to the way normal was. And I remember that I always reacted to that I always bristled at it, I didn't like it. But it took me a long time to finally realize that the reason I didn't like that comment was because normal would never be the same again. And we really need to recognize that that's really what change is all about. And so what we need to do is not necessarily look for a new normal, but instead, recognize that normal is evolving. And while we're comfortable doing things in a certain way, we get used to doing things in a certain way. If we don't explore how do we enhance that, and make that different way, or that way that we do things better, then we're going to be stuck in the same old way of doing things. So even talking about live golf in the PGA. Is that a good change? Is it a bad change and time will tell? It's a change? And rather than necessarily condemning it unless you know something that others don't? The bottom line is with any kind of change, we need to really explore and think about how we enhance because of change. And oftentimes, how do we be the ones to bring change into the world because something has to be better. I was the program director at our radio station. And one of the things that I did at the station when I was program director at K UCI when I was going to college was listen to all of our DJs. And some of them really sounded horrible. They just didn't sound good. And I thought, How do I deal with that? How can I get them to be better? How can I make them change? And I something that dawned on me is that I'm listening to them, too. They listen to themselves. And I went to them and I said, Look, I want you to record your shows. And I want you to go off and listen to them. And they wouldn't do that. And so what we did was to set up a system, I did it with Dave McHugh, our engineer, he set up a recorder in a locked cabinet. Because we had the locked cabinets where all the equipment was anyway. But anytime the mic was activated, the recorder would turn on. So we were able to make recordings of what the people said we didn't really worry about what's the music that wasn't what what we were worried about not evaluating but dealing with, we wanted the announcers to get better. And I would give them each a cassette member cassettes you don't hear you're not I don't know if you're old enough to remember cassettes. I'm a CD guy. There you go. So yeah, they're gone. But we would give them a recording of their week shows. And I said, You've got to listen to the shows. If you don't do that, then you're not going to be able to continue to be here. But you know what? People started doing it. And they started hearing what they sounded like. And by doing that, I was actually very amazed at the quality improvements in most people by the end of the year, when they decided that they would at least think about the change. And then they embrace the change. Because they started hearing themselves the way other people heard them. Some of those people went on into professional Radio One went to NBC and there are people Yeah, that was really great. But we we really, you're right, we get locked into our comfort zone. But the part of it that is the problem is we do get locked into our comfort zone. And we don't think about or explore ways to enhance or improve and maybe stretch our comfort zone. And that's kind of my thought.   Milam Miller ** 34:04 Totally I love that word enhance and also improve. I'm curious, what was the number one thing they changed? Or rather was there a through line of changing pitch tonality? What in perhaps there wasn't a through line? It was it was uniquely individual, but I I'm I want to know what that feedback you gave them resulted in.   Michael Hingson ** 34:28 It was different for different people, probably for most people, they started seeing a whole lot less, they actually started completing sentences more. They spoke in a more consistent way into the microphone. They became better speakers by any standard because they heard themselves and everyone was a little bit different. But those are the basic things they really became better speakers. And one of them actually is this is the main guy who does a lot of the work at one of the local planetariums. And he met was a good speaker anyway. But everyone got better when they started hearing themselves. When I speak, I listen to myself, because I want to hear what I say. And even today, I will listen to recordings of my talks. Sure, so that I can figure out anything that I can do to improve and we all don't like to hear ourselves talk. But I've learned that I'm also not my own worst critic, I think that's also a negative way to look at it. I'm my own best teacher. Because no one else can teach me I've got to be the one to teach myself, even if it's getting input from instructors and all that. I'm the one that has to teach. And so when I take the time to do that, I will get better. And as a result, of course, what that really means is, I change   Milam Miller ** 35:55 what a beautiful reframe not I am my own worst critic, but I have the power or capacity or potential to be my own best teacher. I love that. I love that. I love that. I think when we can also reframe change as being hard as being a means to you said the through line is they all got better changes a means for us to recalibrate, reevaluate, to improve, enhance or get better than we've become more willing to embrace it and build the new and improved or enhanced and evolved version of whatever it is,   Michael Hingson ** 36:29 right changes is something that is around us. And the other part about change is if we really look at something that is trying to get us to change whatever it is, if we truly recognize that there is a something there, then we can analyze that. And so I say to ourselves, do I really want to change this? But then you make it a real conscious decision. Now, things happen that we don't have control over. Did we have control over the World Trade Center terrorist attacks happening? No. Should we have I'm not convinced yet that we would have been able to know that. But it doesn't really matter. I didn't have control over it. The other people who were there didn't have control over it. But what we did have control over was how we chose to deal with it after it occurred.   Milam Miller ** 37:20 Amen. Amen. I love that. Just for anyone who's listening in my community, can you quickly share what you experienced on that day 911?   Michael Hingson ** 37:32 Well, I worked in the World Trade Center on the 78th floor of Tower One. And I was in the office because we were going to be conducting some seminars that day, to teach our reseller partners how to sell our products, when the plane hit the building actually flexed. Because tall buildings are like Big Springs, when it got vertical, again, a colleague's I'll fire above us. But I have spent a lot of time in the the year and a half before actually, September 11 happened, I spent a lot of time learning what to do in the case of an emergency and learning all about the World Trade Center. Because I was the leader of that offense. So I had to be able to function like any other leader would, which meant I had to know what to do and where to go. And even more so than most people because I didn't have the opportunity to rely on signs. So I learned at all. But what I realized much later was that was also helping me develop a mindset that said, you don't need to be afraid if there's an emergency, you know what to do. And you know what your options are as to where to go based on whatever the circumstances are. So don't panic. And I never realized that I learned that but I did. And so I was able to go down the stairs. I had my guide dog at the time Roselle and we traveled down the stairs all 78 floors. Mathematically if I recall, right, it was 1400 63 stairs. Wow. But you know was at least we were going down right?   Milam Miller ** 39:07 That's nice comic relief. I love that. But the   Michael Hingson ** 39:09 issue is that we we went down and we got out and then we were very close to tower two when it collapsed. That was a little bit different session situation because there I think I started to panic a little bit. But as I wrote in Thunder dog things happen that that helps to deal with that. And we did write a book later about a called Thunder dog the story of a blind man has guide dog on the train from Trust, which is available anywhere books are sold. So hopefully people will will get that and keep my current guide dog Alamo and kibbles we appreciate that. But you know, the the issue is that I discovered during COVID and I want to talk about your changes in COVID. And I discovered that while I talked about not being afraid I never really spent any time helping other people learn how to control their fear and as I put it not being blinded by fear when something unexpected happened So we're writing a new book about that. And it'll be out when it comes out. But the whole idea is to say you do have the ability to deal with whatever comes along, you can choose to create a mindset that will allow you to do that and not allow your fear to overwhelm you. It isn't to say, you aren't afraid, I guarantee you, we were afraid going down the stairs. But I used it as a positive motivator to be more observant to encourage my guide dog to go down the stairs. And the job of a guide dog, of course, is not to get lead, but to guide so the dog doesn't know where I want to go and how to get there. That's not the dog's job. But the dog's job is to keep us safe. But I knew that my dog was going to sense all the fear of everyone going down the stairs. So I had to encourage her to focus and do well. And we did, we got out. And we survived. And I've been a speaker, traveling the world talking about trust and teamwork, and dealing with change, and the human animal bond and moving from diversity to inclusion, one of my favorite speeches, but doing a lot of talks around the world ever since. So I'm a full time public speaker, and in addition to working for accessibility, so as a plug, and of course, to any of your friends who might need a speaker, let me know we're always looking for speaking opportunities. And it's been a while since I've been to Toronto, so I gotta get back there.   Milam Miller ** 41:22 There you go. Well, I I just, I think your stories so remarkable, Michael, and that you've used it to be of service to others across all those buzzwords that carry a lot of significance, right, and they hold real meaning to people. When 911 happened for me, I was in the fifth grade. And it was a year of change for me because it was actually the first year I transferred from private Catholic school to public school. And, you know, there's, there's a, what's the word I'm searching for, there's something in an 11 year old boy or girl, whomever at that age, that is striving to find themselves in a new environment, right. And so, when we talk about mindset, the mindset of a child at that time is hate. transferring schools, it's, it's maybe there's some grieving a sense of loss and welcoming in that and there's an opportunity to gain new friends are widening your circles, you know, bridge the gap between the two schools. So I just, I love that in the midst of all that adversity and things that you couldn't control. Your mindset was one in which it stayed calm and was able to self regulate is also I think, what came up for me is, is be able to get yourself to a place of, of safety.   Michael Hingson ** 42:49 My equivalent to your story is that when I was 13, I was in the eighth grade and was in November of 1963. And President Kennedy was shot. And we had to deal with all of that. Sure. It was a little bit more removed, of course, than being in the World Trade Center. But the next summer, I went and got my first sky dog and then went into high school and had to do the same sorts of changes that you did. And I did embrace it as I get to go into a whole new world. And I think that's the issue is that we learn to be so negative and pessimistic about things, rather than recognizing maybe life is an adventure. And we should really embrace more of the adventure. The internet is a great treasure trove of knowledge. And I love the net, I realized that there's a dark side to it, which I've never visited and don't have any need to. But it's like artificial intelligence and chat GPT and so on today, again, we can always look for the negatives. But why do we need to be negative about everything? Why don't we look for the positive things, recognizing that there are negative issues that we might have to deal with, but if we approach it the right way, one will take care of the other.   Michael Hingson ** 44:12 Of course, just because there's real issues going on doesn't mean they need to be approached from a negative mindset or Outlook i i think negativity is such a dream killer for lack of better word and um, if you can't tell already big glass half full kind of guy I on my report card, probably even that same fifth grade year, my teachers or whatever, enthusiastic, that was my calling card. I use enthusiasm as fuel, to embrace change to build the new and instead of fighting the old, how do we navigate this with more? Or how do I navigate this with more confidence and how do I navigate it with more inner kindness the way I'm speaking to myself in my own developmental journey, navigating the new so that's it I guess that fast forwards is back to present day what what happened during COVID. And the result of it Bck, my private coaching, speaking and consulting practice is the football club, I was working for Roma, we sold it during 2020 year. And I mentioned I made a pandemic pivot into sports media tried something out, I thought at that time content is king, everybody's at home. You know, this is a good place to be to negotiate live sports media rights. But unfortunately, that wasn't my reality. And you mentioned having agency to choose, I think that's so important. And if I could have gone back to college, and knowing that I had agency to choose a different major than I would have, and I would have done it with discernment and confidence. But in this case, it was the first time in my professional career that I realized, I have agency to walk away from this because I'm destined for something greater. And so I, after one year of of learning the business, I stepped away, I resigned, and it was actually empowering. Instead of I think so many people feel that quitting is a bad thing. And I, I like to think of do you need to grit through this? Or do you need to quit this because it's not in alignment with what makes you feel alive? And so in my case, I'd done all the grading I could do. It was time to quit not grit, and I started my own business BCK, which stands for be confident, and kind.   Michael Hingson ** 46:30 How do we get people to be more confident in a time of change or when they're when change comes to them? Sure.   Milam Miller ** 46:39 It's such a good question. I think in my own experience, and there's probably other perspectives on this. In the midst of so much newness, I like to find slivers of sameness. So whether that's a fitness modality that serves you, so in my case, I love going to a yoga class or a spin class or a Barry's Bootcamp class, a format that I know. And that brings me confidence that when I'm done, I know I'll feel better. In the midst of so much newness lean into things where you can have just like a little sliver of sameness, it will remind you that you are an expert in some things. And even though you may feel a beginner in whatever it is, I feel like a beginner finding the new grocery store in my neighborhood in Toronto. But in time, you will grow more confident of I prefer this one over that one, or it's worth the extra commute to go to that one, I know how to navigate it with confidence, get my groceries get in and out. So I tell my clients that confidence is a doing energy, it's action oriented. And if you're taking actions or steps, it will build your confidence in time, you just have to be moving in forward direction in a direction that's serving you. Because if you're languishing, then you're going to stay in that stuck or stagnant place.   Michael Hingson ** 48:01 Right. And it's all about moving. And as you're moving, thinking about what you're doing. The other part about it is really analyzing what we do, I'd love to tell people that I think one of the most important things we can do is at the end of the day, take a little bit of time just to do self examination, looking at what happened during the day, and even the good things. Could I have done it better. How did that go? Why did it go the way it did the bad things? Not? Why did I do so badly? But what do I do to make sure that that doesn't happen again? Or what really happened? self examination is such an important thing.   Milam Miller ** 48:44 It is Do you journal Michael?   Michael Hingson ** 48:47 No, I don't write things down just because, you know, it's, I write it down, it's still out of sight out of mind, I have to make a very conscious effort to then to go back and look at the journal. So I just tend to remember things a lot. Well, let   Milam Miller ** 49:00 me let me clarify, because that's probably good for listeners, do you Digital Journal or have any sort of voice memos that you record? And like listen back to kind of going back to the feedback thing or on the radio station? Or is it purely just a mental exercise for you,   Michael Hingson ** 49:16 me it's more of a mental exercise, I find that that works pretty well. If if something comes to mind, and I feel I need to to write it down somewhere, then I will record it. I'll make a note. And I have done that and gone back to it. Or if I want to remember something in six months, I will create a reminder, so it will remind me so I do some of that. But mostly, I just think about things at the end of the day. And I've learned to but I've learned to do that right? Sure. So I'm not saying that journal doesn't help. Journaling doesn't help, but I've learned to do it mentally. And so for me that has worked pretty well,   Milam Miller ** 49:56 of course and what a great way to get pushing yourself to to do that self examination that mindfulness practice. I work with my clients to have a very clear evening routine to set them up for success, so to speak the next day and then a morning ritual in the morning asking, what's my intention for the day, and then in the evening, Am I satisfied. And because I think so many people, their head hits the pillow, and they're thinking about what they didn't get done, which is a lack mindset, as opposed to being grateful for the things they did. And so a gratitude practice is something during the pandemic, I actually had to, I started experimenting with and writing down three things. I'm grateful that the sun came out today in London, I'm grateful I got to read 10 pages in my book, I'm grateful that we cooked a delicious home cooked meal, you know. And it's, it's those little simple things that remind you have how abundant and special your life is, even if you're living in lockdown in a global pandemic. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 51:02 And the reality is that we can take a much more positive approach to anything that we do. But it's a conscious decision to do that. And there's no reason for us to be so negative. The problem is, we also do have so many political leaders and other people who we regard as role models who are very negative, and that doesn't help either. And so we have to be able to learn to step back and say, Wait a minute, do I really want to model that when it's so negative? Or do I want to look at alternatives and that doesn't mean that you look at things through, as they say, rose colored glasses, but it does mean that you need to recognize that there is much more value in positive advancement than running things down and being negative?   Milam Miller ** 51:50 Absolutely. I think being able to discern what works for you, is so important in life. And that goes back to my own gut instincts. It's great for things to be modeled. But that doesn't mean we can carbon, copy everything, we have to really get curious and play scientists on ourselves to figure out what works for us. Because I think sometimes if we look to too many role models, we lose sight of our own intuition. And we're no longer operating according to our code of conduct, but another and it leaves room for disappointment when they let us down or judgment. And we're not being discerning of our own experience in the fact that we're all human. We're all figuring it out.   Michael Hingson ** 52:34 Well, you talk about inner kindness, and it's, it's an important thing. We need to learn to be kind to ourselves, and we yeah, we don't do that.   Milam Miller ** 52:46 So I call myself a recovering perfectionist Michael, releasing a lot of the Type A expectations of myself the shoulds. And speaking kindly of you said it best earlier I can be my own best teacher, instead of I. I'm speaking critically of myself. So I remember the first couple months I moved here in Toronto, it might have been the first couple weeks in fact, I had taken one of those blender balls, you know, like a protein shake with me. And it was so cold out I didn't have gloves on. And I dropped it and of course the way the water bottle hit it cracked and my protein shake went everywhere. And I thought oh man, I just cracked my my blender ball like I'm gonna have to go buy another one and I noticed this negative self talk I was engaging in and then I caught myself I just said oh, well you know next time wear gloves. It's it's it's a thing it can be replaced. All good. Yeah, your hands are sticky, but you still have your fingers like Oh, well. And so embracing the oh well. Like I'm I'm not perfect. I wasn't intended to be perfect has been so liberating in my own journey. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 54:00 We we need to recognize all sides. But we need to really remember that. We have control over how we deal with things. And that's that's ultimately it, you know that there are some changes that are very overwhelming. I mean, the World Trade Center, the pandemic and so on. How do we deal with protecting our own mental health during these kind of incredible seasons of change?   Milam Miller ** 54:28 I love that question. Just as a as an advocate for mental health, especially for men, because I find women do a really good job of asking for help. Opening up being vulnerable men have a tendency to wanting to be stoic or not show any cracks in the facade, hold it in or playing to traditional gender norms. I need to be the provider. I can't show any emotion just just do. And so we all have Mental taking care of our mental health is important to everyone. And in times of change, it can seem on the surface like this is overwhelming. This is a lot. But really when we look underneath I almost think of like the tip of an iceberg asking ourselves, what am I really experiencing? What am I feeling, and taking measures that calm that anxiety, whether it's going on a walk, cooking yourself a nutritious meal, I find that you know, past seasons of life, when I when we moved him to Texas, during the pandemic, we were so excited for fast food for Chick fil A and things that maybe I've been deprived of for a year. And then I started noticing my mood, and I tell friends, clients, food affects your mood. So it's taking care of ourselves with what we're eating, how we're, we're moving is so important, I think not just for what may seem like physical health on the surface, but really, it actually does impact our mental health too.   Michael Hingson ** 56:05 Well, you you've said it several times, doing things like taking a walk, and so on. The reality is that we do better again, when we step back, we're in the middle of something, we feel overwhelmed. If we can step back and gain perspective, then we learn how to deal with it. And that's the other part about it. We're so conditioned to work hard work all the time, and not do any kind of self analysis that we don't learn to step back when the people who do best are the ones who truly can step back unplug. One of my favorite stories is when BlackBerry was still around the BlackBerry device and so on. Sure, the company one day, had a server failure, and everybody's blackberries died, they didn't work, Research In Motion, just wasn't getting anything to anyone. And I heard a few days later that there were even people who committed suicide because they couldn't connect at 12 o'clock at night. You know, and they didn't have any control over that we don't learn to step back and deal with some of those issues and put it in perspective, which is what it's all about. Well just change her mental health. Do you think?   Milam Miller ** 57:28 Before I answer that, I want to address that case study you share because I find that fascinating and present day. I'm hearing so many Gen Z, the cohort below my millennial cohort are purchasing razor flip phones and other sort of non smart devices which I want to be clear I think is great if that if taking that measure helps protect your mental health go for it. Because we live in such an instantaneous society, what you call stepping back, I call reconnecting to myself, disconnecting from my smartphone and reconnecting to myself. It's as silly as it sounds, we learn it on the playground, I think or in some family, some households, like take a deep breath. You know, if we take three deep breaths, we it's scientifically proven and back that we will feel a sense of calm and can come back to our sense of self or reconnect ourselves. So all that to say to answer your question, do I think change is bad for our mental health? Absolutely not. I'm gonna go with with false that's that's fictitious. And I'll tell you why. Change is scary. And it's it's, it's it's not intended to be. But that's our brain trying to protect us and keep us in that comfort zone. And like we talked about earlier, if we can realize that the brain is actually just trying to be our friend and whatever, freeze fight flight mechanisms going off. It's saying proceed with caution. But it's not saying don't proceed at all. It's saying, try on the change, see if it works and in time, you'll grow more comfortable with it, you'll see if it's if it's if it's if it's working for you. And then worst case, you can always change your mind and go back I think in society, we forget that part two if, if maybe we get it wrong, or we want to go back there's no shame in doing that. And so kind of releasing the expectation of, of changes incessant, it's, it's, it's around us, and we can always change our mind again.   Michael Hingson ** 59:33 And there's nothing wrong with that. That's right. The The reality is that the whole idea behind change is you can you can look at it and as you said you can then change again and go back to the way it was or you'll probably never go back to exactly the way it was because even if you discover that whatever change you tried, doesn't really work. It still gave you more knowledge. So you're still a different person than you were Oh,   Milam Miller ** 1:00:00 absolutely 100%.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:03 And I think that's really kind of important to, to remember, it's something that we we need to learn. I, I've had a lot of changes happen in my life. And you know, we all have my latest probably huge changes my wife passed away last November, I didn't really see it coming until very close to the time that it occurred. But now I live alone. Except I have a cat who wants to be petted every time she wants to eat. So I get her ministrations every day. And even in the middle of the night, she'll wake me up saying Phoebe. And I'll do that once. I've told her you only get it once a night. And I have of course, guide dog Alamo. So I have some company here and other people who come and help. But it's a it's an incredible change. And I've heard other people when they had a loved one pass? How could you do that to me, I'm mad at you for doing it. And I cannot say in any way shape or form that I resent Karen's passing, I didn't like it. I'm very sad about it. I also tell people that I will not move on from Karen, I will move forward. But I won't move on. Because I'm not going to forget her. And I'm sure that she's watching from somewhere. And if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. So you know, I have to do that. But the reality is that it's still a huge change. And what it really did for me, was caused me to learn to remember and use tools that I didn't have to use so much while we were married for 40 years. And that now I might have to use some of those skills in a different way. Sure. But, you know, change happens. And one of the things that I feel is important is you can't be angry at change, you decide what you want to do with it.   Milam Miller ** 1:01:57 How do you want to respond to it? Yeah. What a beautiful way to to honor your your wife, Michael, Your late wife, I am curious, the new tools, or rather maybe old tools that you've had to revisit by by doing it on your own and moving forward? Not moving on from her? Has that brought you a sense of newfound confidence or self efficacy? If I can? I don't, I wouldn't. I don't maybe I don't want to do it alone. I would prefer to have her here. And I'm confident and every day taking a new step. And you're actually I'm curious what that looks like for you?   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:34 Well, I think you just described it very well, the reality is that I also did travel a lot while she was alive. So I'm used to not always being home. But the the other part of it is that I'm reminded that I do have the skills to be able to function and do things and be able to live and move and grow. And I'm going to continue to do that. And I think in part that's also honoring her.   Milam Miller ** 1:03:04 Yeah, amen. live, move and grow. I love that.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:09 So it is kind of an important thing to do. So   Milam Miller ** 1:03:14 thank you for sharing that. Michael. I know it's grief is so complex. And it's it's not a linear process. So I really commend to you for opening up in this forum. It's it gives people permission to open up about similar loss. Well, thank   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:30 you I you know, I will always honor her and remember her and that's the way it ought to be. Amen. If there were one thing that you could change in the world, what would it be?   Milam Miller ** 1:03:42 Hmm, how long can my list be? I know you said one one thing I'm thinking of Christmas like Hey, Santa Claus, I want world hunger. Where do we start? You know I I've always been fascinated by people and human connection. What makes the Earth Spin on its axis isn't super heroes like spinning planet Earth. It's It's It's we make the world go round with the decisions we make. And not just the things we do but the the way in which we embody doing it like our actual beings. So I think I would, I would love for there to be more harmony that starts, from leaders from leaders around the world. And that may sound a bit like woowoo like world peace, but I really believe that if we lead from servant hearted leadership, if everyone believed they had the capacity to lead and tapped into cultivating confidence and kind to actions, then this would be an even better planet planet to live on.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:56 Well, I absolutely agree with you if we really want would go back to the whole idea of servant leadership, servant hearted leadership, and truly brought that into being around the world, it would be a much better thing. But unfortunately, you know, right now we've got too many people who are in it for them. And, yeah, they're not, they're not recognizing how much better they would be if they truly learned to be the servant leaders that they probably could be. And if they can't do that, then they really shouldn't try to be leaders. And we need to recognize that and feel empowered to say to them, if you can't really be a servant, to lead appropriately, then we're not going to accept that, and we're not going to acc

My guest, John Cerqueira, shares his take on gratitude and how he uses it – and helps his clients use it – to combat stress in the corporate world.  He also talks about the 3 reasons why we might resist using gratitude, and I think he's 100% on point!A little bit about John. He is the founder of Pinwheel Associates,  where he helps organizations address the common friction points during times of change so people can show up as their most balanced, capable, and productive selves. He has also been recognized as one of the heroes on September 11, 2001.  At 22 years old, he emerged from the debris after escaping the 81st floor of Tower One of the World Trade Center minutes before the building's collapse. Along the way he helped a fellow human being and wheelchair user to escape from the 68th floor.  This revealed to him the power and fulfillment that comes with service to others and provided the opportunity to share this message through features on the Oprah Winfrey Show, Good Morning America, People Magazine, USA Today, The History Channel, and PBS.If you want to hear more of that story check out episode 1 of this podcast (link below).https://www.pinwheelassociates.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-cerqueira-5a22963/https://www.bobbikahler.com/podcast/episode001Follow Bobbi at: Sign up for Bobbi's free newsletter, Find Your Forward and receive her free guide: Thriving Forward: Master Your Inner Game for Greater Happiness, Well-Being and Success: https://www.bobbikahler.com/newsletterhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/bobbikahler/

Lisa is joined by Michael Hingson who talks about his book Thunder Dog: The True Story of a Blind Man, His Guide Dog, and the Triumph of Trust at Ground Zero.Michael Hingson is a #1 New York Times best-selling author, technologist and motivational speaker. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 terrorist attacks with the help of his guide dog, Roselle. This story of teamwork and his indomitable will to live and thrive is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog and the major motion picture currently in production, coming in September 2013. Michael Hingson and his guide dog, Roselle, saved dozens of lives by guiding him and his co-workers down 78 floors and out of Tower One just before it collapsed on 9/11. In Thunder Dog, Michael leads us through his moment-by-moment account from inside the tower. The book is also an inspiring look at Michael's accomplishments in life. Sadly, Roselle passed away in July 2011 but posthumously won the American Humane Association Hero Dog Award for 2012 in a star-studded gala in Beverly Hills, and televised in a special feature presentation on Hallmark Channel. Despite being blind all his life, Michael has a master's degree in physics from University of California Irvine and is an accomplished technologist. Michael has worked with inventor, futurist, Ray Kurzweil for more than 30 years and was instrumental in the development of the first reading machine for the blind. Today, the Kurzweil brand is the preeminent name in educational software and technology for students with disabilities for which Michael is a national sales manager—improving the lives of children, students and adults with physical and learning disabilities through assistive technologies. Michael Hingson has a deep commitment to education and is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's Hero Dog Awards. Innovative Speaker's Network named Michael Hingson “one of America's top 10 educational speakers”. Michael is a member of NACA and a member of the National Speaker's Association. In countless TV and radio appearances, newspaper features and magazine articles, Michael Hingson does much more than recount his 9-11 story; he continuously explores the broader lessons of his life and experiences as a blind person in today's world and shares these lessons to educate, inspire and empower audiences world-wide. Michael has appeared on Larry King five times, and other major national broadcasts such as the Today Show, Fox and Friends, the 700 Club, Joy Behar, Discovery Channel, Animal Planet, and the Hallmark Channel.BOOK DESCRIPTION:An instant New York Times bestseller, Thunder Dog tells the true story of a blind man, his guide dog, and the life-changing power of faith and trust in the face of terror.When one of four hijacked planes flew into the World Trade Center's North Tower on September 11, 2001, Michael Hingson, a district sales manager for a data protection and network security systems company, was sitting down for a meeting. His guide dog, Roselle, was at his feet.Blind from birth, Michael could hear the sounds of shattering glass, falling debris, and terrified people flooding all around him. But Roselle sat calmly beside him. In that moment, Michael chose to trust Roselle's judgment and not to panic. They were a team.As you relive that fateful day in September 2001 alongside Michael and Roselle, you'll learn:The ways that grief and loss can lead the way for changeHow the rare trust between a man and his guide dog can inspire your own unshakeable faithThe healing power of telling your own storyPraise for Thunder Dog:"Chapter by chapter of this intriguing work will keep you spellbound. Thunder Dog celebrates the

Michael Hingson is a #1 New York Times best-selling author, technologist and motivational speaker. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 terrorist attacks with the help of his guide dog, Roselle. This story of teamwork and his indomitable will to live and thrive is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog and the major motion picture currently in production, coming in September 2013. Michael Hingson and his guide dog, Roselle, saved dozens of lives by guiding him and his co-workers down 78 floors and out of Tower One just before it collapsed on 9/11. In Thunder Dog, Michael leads us through his moment-by-moment account from inside the tower. This podcast will certainly change your perspective about life and not to take anything for granted. Listen on how this blind man found a way to get down from the 78th floor of the First tower that got hit at 844am on that Tuesday morning. Very inspiring to say the least. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/happinessjourney/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/happinessjourney/support

How can organizations effectively transition from a focus on diversity to creating a truly inclusive work environment? What steps can individuals and communities take to foster a culture of inclusion that goes beyond just acknowledging diversity? Join me as I talk with Michael Hingston about Moving from Diversity to Inclusion. Shifting from a mere emphasis on diversity to genuine inclusion is not only crucial for fostering equality and fairness but also for harnessing the true power of diverse perspectives and experiences. Key Notes:  Disability does not mean a lack of ability.  Everyone on the Earth has a disability.  How well do we prepare for emergencies?  You can control fear and make it a positive tool. Links: www.michaelhingson.com  Facebook, https://www.facebook.com/mhingson https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://www.facebook.com/Roselle911GuideDog/   Twitter, https://twitter.com/mhingson LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson  YouTube channel, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfCx2L9OVN38Dv4mX6udP8g Offer: You can download a free eBook about learning how to control fear by visiting www.blindedbyfear.net Bio:Michael Hingson, blind since birth, was born in Chicago to sighted parents who believed in raising their son with a can-do attitude. Treated like all other children in his family, Michael rode a bike, did advanced math in his head, and learned to read and write – Braille that is! He later went to college receiving a bachelor's and master's degree in physics along with a secondary teaching credential from the University of California at Irvine. Michael Hingson's life changed dramatically on September 11, 2001, when he and his guide dog, Roselle, escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the World Trade Center moments before it collapsed. Soon after, Michael and Roselle were thrust into the international limelight where Michael began to share his unique survival story and 9-11 lessons of trust, courage, heroism, and teamwork. He is the author of the #1 New York Times Best Seller: Thunder Dog –The True Story of a Blind Man, a Guide Dog & the Triumph of Trust – selling over 2.5 million copies Worldwide. In 2014 Mr. Hingson published his 2nd book Running with Roselle- which Is the first of its kind- A story for our youth shedding light on one of America's Darkest Days. Speaking to some of the world's most elite: from former President, George W. Bush to Larry King, to Fortune 500 companies and colleges and Universities Nationwide. After sharing his story of survival on hundreds of TV and Radio programs, Michael is now an Expert hired by many of today's major corporations and organizations. Speaking and consulting on the importance of Teamwork and Trust, Moving from Diversity to Inclusion, as well as offering Adaptive Technology Training – spearheading innovation for ALL! Support the show

Michael Hingson, blind since birth, was born in Chicago to sighted parents who believed in raising their son with a can-do attitude. Treated like all other children in his family, Michael rode a bike did advanced math in his head and learn to read and write - Braille that is! Michael's family relocated to the warm Palmdale area of California when he was five years old. It is here that Hingson had his first adventure with Guide Dogs for the Blind and received his first guide dog. He later went to college receiving a bachelor's and master's degree in Physics along with a secondary teaching credential from the University of California at Irvine. Michael then enjoyed a nearly-30-year career working for high tech companies spending most of his time in management roles. Michael Hingson's life changed dramatically on September 11, 2001 when he and his guide dog, Roselle, escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the World Trade Center moments before it collapsed. Soon after, Michael and Roselle were thrust into the international limelight where Michael began to share his unique survival story and 9-11 lessons of trust, courage, heroism, and teamwork. Mike has served as The National Public Affairs Director for one of the largest Nonprofit organizations in the nation: Guide Dogs for the Blind; He serves as the vice president of the National Association of Guide Dog Users; Michael holds seats on other agency boards including the Fort Worth Lighthouse for the Blind, the Earle Baum Center for the Blind and the Colorado Center for the Blind; Michael is The National Ambassador for the Braille Literacy Campaign of the National Federation of the Blind. He is the Founder of the Roselle's Dream Foundation - helping the blind obtain the technology they need to not only excel in school and at work, but to live out their dreams! Until October 2019 he worked as the CEO of the Do More Foundation, the non-profit arm of Aira Tech Corp, a manufacturer of assistive technology which makes a revolutionary visual interpreter for blind people. He is the author of the #1 New York Times Best Seller: "Thunder dog -The True Story of a Blind Man, a Guide Dog & the Triumph of Trust" - selling over 2.5 million copies Worldwide. In 2014 Mr. Hingson published his 2nd book "Running with Roselle"- which Is the first of its kind- A story for our youth shedding light on one of Americas Darkest Days. Aside from his talents and advocacies, Mr. Hingson has traveled the Globe from Japan to New Zealand, the Netherlands to his hometown, Chicago. Speaking to some of the world's most elite: from former President, George W. Bush to Larry King, to Fortune 500 companies and colleges and Universities Nationwide. After sharing his story of survival on hundreds of TV and Radio programs, Michael is now an Expert hired by many of today's major corporations and organizations. Speaking and consulting on the importance of Teamwork and Trust, Moving from Diversity to Inclusion, as well as offering Adaptive Technology Training - spearheading innovation for ALL! - Thus, bringing organizations to the forefront of the ever-changing competitive modern world. Currently, Michael lives in Victorville, California with his wife, Karen, a professional quilter, Alamo, Michael's eighth guide dog and their rescue feline, Stitch. https://michaelhingson.com/books/

the heartwarming story of Michael Hingson and his guide dog, Roselle, who together saved dozens of lives during the 9/11 attacks, plus discover how Michael's incredible life journey led to his inspiring accomplishments despite being blind since birth.In this captivating episode, we explore the extraordinary bond between Michael Hingson and his guide dog, Roselle, who together navigated the treacherous descent from the 78th floor of Tower One during the 9/11 attacks. Through Michael's compelling account in his book, Thunder Dog, we not only experience the harrowing events of that day but also learn about the remarkable life and achievements of this inspiring guy!JOIN THE FACEBOOK GROUP!THE GRIT, GRACE, & INSPIRATION COMMUNITYHope you will JOIN us inside the group!MICHAEL HINGSONLINKS FOR TODAY'S GUESTWEBSITE: MichaelHingson.comBUY MICHAEL'S BOOK: Thunder Dog on AmazonLINKS FOR THE PODCASTGrit, Grace, & InspirationHosted By Kevin LoweWEBSITE: www.GritGraceInspiration.comSEND KEVIN A VOICE MESSAGEBOOK A CALL WITH KEVINJOIN OUR FACEBOOK COMMUNITYGuided by Faith. Inspired by life itself.Podcast artwork © 2022 Kristen Girard of Radiance and Grit and Used with Permission by Lowe Down Media LLC© 2023 Grit, Grace, & Inspiration

Ari Schonbrun was on his way to work on September 11, 2001, when he was asked to fill out a book order for his son. Delaying him, he arrived at the World Trade Center twenty minutes after nine, only to experience a blast that shook the building. Through a series of coincidences, he was saved from being in the elevator when the plane struck the building. Experience the incredible journey of survival with Ari Schonbrun, a 911 survivor, and find out how miracles, fate, and inspiration can help you to overcome anything. Ari Schonbrun is a retired motivational speaker, author, life coach, and podcast host of Whispers and Bricks, who survived the events of 9/11. He uses his platforms to share his story of miracles, fate, and inspiration.In this episode, you will learn the following: 1. How did Ari Schonbrun's brush with death on 9/11 reveal a series of coincidences that saved his life?2. How Ari Schonbrun helped a coworker in pain?3. How did Ari Schonbrun's cell phone miraculously get reception in the middle of the World Trade Center on 9/11?4. Why not taking life for granted is so important. Whispers and Bricks podcast:https://whispersandbrickspodcast.com/Whispers and Bricks Coaching:https://whispersandbrickspodcast.com/whispers-and-bricks-academy/Learn about Ari or book him as a guest speaker:https://www.arischonbrun.com/National Help hotlines:https://ineedblue.net/resources-%26-productsStay safe tips:https://ineedblue.net/resources-%26-productsPurchase  my book: Why I Survived:  How sharing my story helped me heal from dating abuse, armed robbery, abduction, and other forms of trauma by Jennifer Leehttps://whyisurvived.com/This book recalls four personal experiences of suspense, suspicion, and survival that ultimately lead to Jen's life purpose of helping other survivors.The first story shares her long-distance relationship with a man who poisoned her self-worth and created self-doubt on every level. As if that weren't enough, her boyfriend of three-years was harboring a secret. How she finally ended this relationship will shock you. Six years later, she heard the words “give me all your money!” When she turned around, she couldn't believe what happened next!Ten years later, she met a creepy guy at a work conference who forced his way into her personal space. The final story is different. It's heart-touching and impactful, inspiring you with the lessons she learned about intentions, faith, and fear that will reinforce your purpose on this Earth.  Throughout all the suspense and triumph over fear, you'll find words of support and pages of resources, helping you to know that you are never alone. Connect with me: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ineedbluepodcast/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/needbluepodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp1q8SfA_hEXRJ4EaizlW8QWebsite: https://ineedblue.net/Loved this episode? Leave us a review and rating here: https://podcastsconnect.apple.com/my-podcasts/show/i-need-blue/cf77fdb3-396e-4c1c-82aa-c2c3f6d1eee2/ratings-and-reviewsThe background music is written, performed and produced exclusively by Char Good.https://chargood.com/homeLearn 2 Podcast PDF now available. Download this 33 page informational packet today! https://ineedblue.net/learn-2-podcast-1

It is so enjoyable and refreshing for me, and I hope you, to hear from a wide variety of guests here on Unstoppable Mindset. Our guest this time is Daniel Mangena. Daniel had what he says is a normal and somewhat boring childhood with no major events along the way. Even so, he grew up to be quite a thinker and person who likes to help transform lives as you will hear.   Daniel talks with me about choices and how we are the ones who most of all limit our life and other choices. He uses, as an example, the story of Roger Banister who was the first person to run a mile in less than four minutes. Wait until you hear what Daniel says about that.   Like many of our guests, Mr. Mangena offers many good nuggets of wisdom and life lessons we all can use and that can help us anchor ourselves to a better and richer life.     About the Guest: Daniel Mangena is a successful entrepreneur, best-selling author, podcast host of Do it with Dan and Beyond Success, a life & business transformation coach, and an international public speaker who is known for programs and content that take clients and students to next level living. He has helped thousands of people across the globe achieve wealth mastery and truly abundant lives.     Featured on CNN, CBS, FOX, the Jack Canfield show, and in Forbes and Entrepreneur magazines, Daniel's mission is to spread his teachings worldwide with the intention to “spearhead an evolutionary uplift in universal consciousness by awakening people to the importance of their unique role and enabling them to manifest their dream life”.   How to connect with Daniel: FB - https://www.facebook.com/thedreamerceo Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/dreamerceo/ IG - https://www.instagram.com/danielmangena.official Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMdAvGk6xa5fptmdULliJrg Twitter - https://twitter.com/dreamerCEO Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/do-it-with-dan/id1381226331     About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:21 Welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. Glad you're here with us. Thanks very much for for joining us. We hope that you enjoy our episode today. We're going to have a lot of fun with it one way or another. It's all about having fun, and it's all about being educated. Daniel, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Daniel Mangena  01:40 Thank you for having me, Michael, very excited to be here and dive in.   Michael Hingson  01:45 Well, so we're a little jealous. You're down in Cabo San Lucas, where you live for a good part of the year. That's no fun.   Daniel Mangena  01:54 I just escaped the summer heat. Well, that was really funny. This year, I escaped to Europe thinking that it will be cooler. And actually it was infinitely more hot because of the heatwave. So I was to die. I was still dying from heat, but it's so good.   Michael Hingson  02:08 Well, at least you're here. And that's always fun. Yeah. Well, let's, let's start a little bit, I know that it's fair to say you're a best selling author, you've got your own podcast, you talk about a variety of different things. But let's start a little bit before that. So tell me a little bit about you growing up and what life was like and anything else that you want us to know. And the things you don't want us to know. Tell us those anyway, too.   Daniel Mangena  02:33 Yeah, so I don't really have the early on sub story that some people might have. And I don't say to stop story to a throwaway line. I mean, it you know, some people do have stories that are really quite sad, you know, I didn't have an absentee parent, I didn't have any alcoholism or drug addiction in my family. It was actually quite a normal, middle class upbringing. But what actually happened is, I create some success quite early in my life, and unfortunately didn't have the the experience and the know how to keep that which I created and ended up making and losing to multimillion pound fortunes by the age of 23. And falling into quite deep, dark place of depression. And it was a really dark place I found myself in. And what ended up happening off the back of that was that I got the gift and the gift was learning why Why create couldn't stay. And also learning to be a nicer human being from the humanity of my experience. And what I get to do now is to empower people to take the pain of what I went through through a lot of that, and to create an abundant, joyful, purpose driven life for themselves as they go through life today.   Michael Hingson  03:46 So how's that working out for you?   Daniel Mangena  03:49 We're having fun loving life, we've got to say,   Michael Hingson  03:51 that's, that's great. So how long have you been doing what you do now?   Daniel Mangena  03:57 Since 2018, actually isn't my first. So we started the podcast in March of 2018 or so about March. And I did my first event the 15th of July 2018. And since then, we've now helped literally 10s of 1000s of people around the world through the content that we put out through the podcasts, maybe more than that, through social media. And you know, people from literally all walks of life and all parts of the world.   Michael Hingson  04:25 Do you also do any kind of courses or other kinds of things that people can relate to? Or? Yeah, that helped people   Daniel Mangena  04:32 to do this? Yeah, we do do this. We do some stuff. I've got my next alchemy of abundance. In person workshop. We're starting here in Cabo. In a couple of days at the point of recording this, we're doing the next one, the 31st of March to the second of April, and we've got some programs. micromillions is our signature program that takes people really through this journey of creating a life of abundance in a way that really honors their natural gifts to the natural flow. And what they want to live their life to do.   Michael Hingson  05:03 So what did you do before you were doing this?   Daniel Mangena  05:05 I had a consulting business. I started that in 2000. And God Lord, when did I start quarter four, I started corner for consulting 2005. I think 2000 14,005. That was a business that I took to, you know, quite a lot of success that I ended up losing, I really rebuilt it up again, probably starting about 2011. And then I closed it down in 2018 to 13, February 2018, closed it down to come and do what I do now. But since then, I've gone back to doing a little bit of consulting to do some of it on the side.   Michael Hingson  05:43 What did you do before you were consulting?   Daniel Mangena  05:46 Before that I had entrepreneurship by businesses and those the ones that I built up and lost when I was younger, and money, man 38. Now, my first big business when I was 19. And then another business round, 21 loss at age 23. Built up off the back of that. And proof I've never really had, I worked in a cinema when I was about 15 for a summer. And then when I was rebuilding, or around 2011 2012, I had a job in a call center for six months just to cover the bills while I was building up the business.   Michael Hingson  06:23 So you didn't do college or anything like that.   Daniel Mangena  06:26 I did a year of college, I never finished my degree I did one year exactly one year of university, I took a gap year that's lasted 20 years. That's a good gap year that's lasted 20 years. Finally, though,   Michael Hingson  06:39 I think there's a lot to be said for what you learn in the College of life, as opposed to just going to college. And that's kind of what I hear you saying it's, it's all about what you learned, and then how you deal with it.   Daniel Mangena  06:54 Yeah, and also, I think it really comes down to what your goals are. I mean, if we go back to the original, you know, the old school, where college and universities really, really stepped up and started, they had a purpose. And that was really preparing people for specific roles in society. As that level of education sort of moved out to more people, that became a little bit more, a bit more varied. And when you look at the benefit, especially for the amount of debt that you need to go into, in America, for example, to go, I mean, when I did my degree, it's about three grand a year, maybe including your accommodation, and you could get a student loan for some of it. Now the costs have gone up, I think it's about 10 to 20,000 pounds a year, depending on on where you go, and what city that you're in for your living costs and so on. But you know, people in the US, you guys go into six figures of debt, or for a degree and you have to ask yourself, Is this degree me following a formula that other people told me that I should follow? Or is this contributing to what I want to create for some of us, it's going to contribute to what you can kind of create. For some people, the experience of going to university is a big part of who then growing up and maturing as a person, you think it really should be case by case and you having a personal relationship to that choice, versus I'm going to go and do a degree just because that people told me that's what I'm supposed to do.   Michael Hingson  08:14 I remember when I went to the University of California at Irvine, which is a long time ago, I started there in 1968. And registration was I think, $273 a quarter. But I remember my dorm room and I had a single room was $1,200 a year. And that was room and board and all that. And of course $1,200 wouldn't buy you anything anymore. But yeah, it's it's it's grossly expensive. I do think there is a value in college for the for those who can go and I think that you hit it on the head, a lot of its maturity and a lot of us learning and learning to get along with people. I do think that sometimes we tend to get molded and not always learn to think as, as as creatively as we can. I would hope that college teaches more creativity. But I know that in some places it doesn't and for some students it doesn't. And the reverse is also true.   Daniel Mangena  09:20 Again, I think it's just what are my goals and this is what I'm I'm really big on intentionality and intentionality is a big part of what we do and what we support people in creating for themselves. But when I have a level of intentionality behind what I'm doing, I can start to look at what actions are going to support me getting to the goal that I that I want to get to. If for example, you want to be a medical doctor, you're gonna need to get you back to college. If you want to be in construction, you may not need to go to college. If you want to be in business. Yes, you can go and get a business degree and go and get an MBA. But I can tell you that for the most part. The people who are going to be teaching you about business probably haven't run a business and getting there and getting your Getting your feet, your toes wet and actually just going out and trying, and getting support and mentorship and guidance from in the field is probably going to be better for you. But it really does come down to who am I? What do I want to create? What is my goal or intention? And does this choice actually lead me in that direction?   Michael Hingson  10:17 How do we get colleges to teach that concept to enhance what they do? Because that would clearly enhance what they do? I think we don't teach intentionality. And we don't always necessarily teach as much as we could about taking people through that process.   Daniel Mangena  10:37 Yeah, but I mean, colleges and universities, businesses.   Michael Hingson  10:41 Yeah, that's true.   Daniel Mangena  10:44 People hang let's ease people in.   Michael Hingson  10:48 But it doesn't mean that they can't. But it doesn't mean that they can teach people to be creative, I don't think it necessarily means you're going to talk somebody out of going to college. But rather, what you're doing is teaching them to be more intentional about what what they do in college,   Daniel Mangena  11:02 I think it's going to come down to it's going to come down to the institution, their intentions, their goals. I know, for example, a friend of mine is dear friends with with the dean of a university, that potentially is going to be giving me an honorary doctorate, which is always always fun. And I know that for a fact, that particular institution is really committed to the excellence of their students and for bringing out the best in their students, someone like that, for example, probably would be open to ideas about that, if you've got sort of a, a churn and burn institution that really just cares about getting that tuition fee, they're probably you're probably not going to be able to convince them at all. All that being saying that the approach to getting the university to, to look at these alternative approaches to get the most out of their students really, I believe is going to come down to does the university does the institution actually care? And if so, then can we collaborate with them based on that care, so that they can actually be open to ideas that are going to support them, and then sharing in a way that they're going to understand?   Michael Hingson  12:01 Yeah, it all comes back down to relating to people and to individuals, and it is different for different people. One of the things that society in general doesn't do, and colleges are certainly part of society is that we don't necessarily nearly as well as we could address, the issue of dealing with people who are different or dealing with differences among people, we talk about it, we do some of it, but we don't really do nearly as much of it as we could.   Daniel Mangena  12:31 But again, I think that really comes down then to really comes down to, to your goals, your intentions, what you're looking to create. And then if you've got that nailed down, then you can start to plot a path to where you want to want to get to I think far too many people are just running around with no intentionality with no direction and wondering why they don't actually get somewhere. That's my personal experience and witnessing.   Michael Hingson  12:59 Yeah, well, I think that's, that's very true. We also have, I'm gonna I'm thinking specifically of the category of people who happen to be blind or very low vision. The problem is that most of us are still taught. If you're blind, you can't do anything. And so we're not taught how to be creative, and how to be intentional. And to really set goals and create a mindset. I could call it an unstoppable mindset. But to create a mindset you could create, to create a mindset that says, I'm going to really figure out how to do this, go for it, and make it happen. And, and also be willing to accept setbacks along the way, but still, intentionally getting there. And I and I think that that's part of something that's not just true for blind people, but for a lot of people, we don't teach people that they are really a lot more able to do things and they think or to win, we might as well use it to be on they're not as nearly they don't learn to be as unstoppable as they can be.   Daniel Mangena  14:12 So here's where I sit with with that one. There's a universal or one of the universal laws, the law of vibration, and the law of vibration states that we can only operate in terms of answer to the same level of the question. And so when we look at things like the the was it the one minute the 10 minute mile or the five minute mile, I can't remember which one is probably a five minute mile, whatever it is all the 10 So I think   Michael Hingson  14:50 it was originally the Yeah, I think it was originally the four minute mile formula, which is the one Yeah, I know where you're going. Go ahead.   Daniel Mangena  14:57 So everybody was awkward. Eating on the basis of the belief that you couldn't do the mile run in less than the four minutes, assuming that we're right. And so everybody was operating on that belief. Everyone was coming from that place. And nobody was was doing this. Now, the second that somebody stepped up and broke that four minute mile that it became the norm. Yeah, that the level of ability that people had to meet that new opportunity, that new outcome was presented, and more people than were able to go and create these four minute mile situations.   Michael Hingson  15:33 Yeah, it was amazing what happened after Roger Bannister did it and then suddenly, everyone everyone could do it figured out, they could do it. Because people even said to him, when he said he was gonna do it, you're gonna die, you can't physically do it physiologically, it's.   Daniel Mangena  15:48 And again, their ability to see response was limited to their questioning, they were questioning from the perspective of, oh, I can't this is what's wrong. This is what's not possible. These are my limitations. When we look at people who are in society, who are facing the choice as to whether they're going to stick with AI or whether they're going to move forward. They as individuals are the only one that can be responsible for what's going to happen, if we're waiting for society to step up and say, I'm going to empower you, if you're waiting for the Dean of the University to say, I'm going to give you the tools, we're always going to stay stuck. I would invite anybody who's listening to this episode, who has anything in their life that they're being told from outside of themselves, or even inside of themselves? That they can't do it? Just to play with the question? What would happen on what would it look like if I did? Not even to say, I'm going to do it I have to do I'm certain I can do it, just to toy with the idea? What would it feel like? What would it look like? If I did actually do this? What could that look like? All of a sudden now, where we're operating from changes we're no longer operating from I can't, we're suddenly operating from a maybe. And one of the things that we teach in the work that we do is all that you need is a maybe to open up the doors of possibility, to new opportunities to new insights, to new inspiration to new evidence from outside of yourself, and maybe then a new outcome.   Michael Hingson  17:15 Yeah, it is, it is about getting people to move to that maybe or to move to the CI, maybe this really is possible, or I ought to really explore that better. And as I said, unfortunately, too many people are taught way too often, that you can't do that, and they don't go beyond it. And that's where it really gets to be an extremely unfortunate occurrence in life that so many people have just decided, or have been taught for so long that they can't do more than they do, that they, they believe it and it becomes a very hard wall to break through.   Daniel Mangena  17:57 And this is where podcasts like your stories like yours, these give people that opportunity to have a new choice. But the choice has to be made as an individual. Yeah, we can't, we can lead that we can lead the masses to the well. But we can't make them drink, you know, and, and part and parcel of My journey has actually just being okay with playing that role of bringing people to the world. But at the end of the day, anyone who's depending on someone or something outside of them, to get them over the finish line is never going to get there if you want to. Or if you're feeling a desire, a feeling within you to go and create a beast and do something different, then there has to be a desire within you to actually do the work to get there. And to follow through and make that happen.   Michael Hingson  18:41 Do you think there's room for mentors in a person's life and coaches to help them?   Daniel Mangena  18:46 Not only do I think there's room for it, I think it's an a completely imperative part of the process. I spend multiple six figures a year on my personal development, multiple, six figures. There's always coaches, for me, healers, mentors, guides, I was on the call with one of my coaches earlier. And even if it's a skill that I think that I've got down, I still look to be guided and mentored in that in everything, every part of my life and business. Because, you know, I always joke that, you know, I've never seen my own backside. I've never seen my own face. I've seen a picture of it. I've seen a reflection of it. I can see the video here. But I've never actually seen my own physical face. A man has never seen his own faces and backside. How can he think that he's going to have everything worked out about about his life, there are always going to be blind spots and having guidance, guidance, having leadership having coaching mentorship is what's going to enable you to see those so that then you can have the data and have the insights that can support you in following through on that decision that you've made to move through and create something different.   Michael Hingson  19:50 Yeah. Those people, those individuals who mentor and coach you clearly are people who are helping to open your mind to possibilities, and I think you're right, all of us need mentors, all of us need coaches. What about spending time just by yourself being more introspective? Like one of the things that I advocate is every day, people should take a few minutes at the end of the day and just stop me even when they're lying in bed. Think about what happened today. What worked, what didn't work? What did I do? Well, why was it well, and could I have done it better, and what didn't work and all that I'm a firm believer in introspection, and I used to use the words, I do that because I'm my own worst critic. And I realized that's not the really, that's not the right thing to say, it's, it should be, I do that, because I want to grow. And I'm in the best position possible, if I truly do it, to take that information, and learn from it.   Daniel Mangena  20:52 I mean, I'm a firm advocate in journaling has been a really great practice to use in your day. I've got particular prompts that I use in the morning, and in the evening, just to reflect on what I've created. Because, you know, we're talking about personal responsibility, in terms of, you know, showing up for ourselves and so on. And if I'm not taking audit, then how am I going to know the impact or the effects of the choices that I'm making, so that I can cause corrected, and continue to move forward in a positive direction. So yeah, taking that timeout, and engaging with that, in that time in a way that's going to work for you, and it's going to serve you I think, is imperative. But certainly, recognizing that if you're not taking score, it's gonna be very difficult for you to stay on point and stay on target and get to your end goal.   Michael Hingson  21:37 Yeah, much less even. Figuring out what your end goal ought to be. You've got exactly got to take the time to do it. Yeah. I, since September 11, I have spent a lot of time talking about the fact that I created a mindset, where I wouldn't be afraid. If an emergency happened. Of course, if something happened, where I couldn't do anything about it, then I probably wouldn't be here. But otherwise, I created a mindset that said, you know, what you can do in an emergency, you know how to do it. I learned all about the World Trade Center and such things and spent a lot of time regularly going through different things that I learned and always asking if there's more to learn. But I didn't realize at first that I had created a mindset. But then when September 11, happened, the mindset kicked in, it was just an automatic thing that allowed me to focus and help others and help me and keep my guide dog focus as we went down the stairs and doing all the things that needed to be done to successfully escape from the towers. And as I said, of course, at any time, the building could have come down, and that wouldn't have been anything I had control over.   Daniel Mangena  22:58 So what can we control? What can we look?   Michael Hingson  23:00 Right? That's right, and we'll get to them. But but the thing is, I developed the mindset, but I never really started talking about how others can develop that mindset. And what I've come to realize is, it really started with a concept that was on subconsciously or unconscious to me at the time, I was saying, there's no need to really have such a blinding fear that you can't move beyond it, that you need to use fear as a tool to help you focus on heightened senses. But if you become as I call it blinded by fear, then you've given up and you don't have a way to move forward. And so we're getting ready to write a book, actually, we're started writing a book, we're looking, I'm looking at the first draft of it now. We're calling it a guide dogs Guide to Being brave, because we use dogs throughout the book to talk about what they go through and what people go through and so on. But it's all about teaching people you don't need to be blinded by fear in unexpected situations you can be to use your words intentional about being able to move forward and developing a mindset that allows you to cope with things you don't expect.   Daniel Mangena  24:09 And recognizing, accepting and understanding there's always going to be things that you don't expect. That's like, that's life life has got stuff that's going to show up, there's going to happen that you don't understand that you're not ready for. There's always a tower that can come down on you physically or metaphysic or metaphorically, but it's do you hold on to your guide dog, whether that is a physical dog, whether it's a mentor, whether it's a book, whether it's a podcast, and allow that to be the support for you because the guide dog can lead you out, but it can't walk for you, your coach or your mentor, your your your your guide, they can give you the tools but they can't make you use them. We still have to step up and do that ourselves. Well, it's   Michael Hingson  24:53 even more subtle because a guide dog doesn't lead and that's what most people say and you know, not picking on you for the terminology but what a guy dog does his guide that is to say, it's not the dog's job to know where to go and how to get there. That has to be my job. And my job is to direct the dog. So I will tell the dog when I want the dog to go forward or left or right, the dog's job is to make sure that we walk safely in the process. So we are a team, we each have a job to do to make the team successful. But the reality is it is a team. And the last thing, in fact I want is a dog that thinks it knows where I want to go. So for example, at the World Trade Center, I spent hours and this is one of the ways that helped me, I spent hours trying to walk different ways to get to the same point just so the dog wouldn't get in the habit of going one way to get somewhere because what would happen if that way, were blocked by fire or something else. Now, doing that in a in a building or complex of buildings is a little bit challenging, because there aren't that many ways to get from point A to point B. But even if you have two or three and even if one is instead of going up an escalator, and walking through the arcade in the middle of the World Trade Center, and then going into Tower One, which we did or another time going on the fourth level down through a parking lot and up an escalator right into Tower One, or sometimes going up the escalator to the arcade and then turning left, walking around a little bit. And then going back the bottom line is what I didn't want the dog to do was to get into the habit of knowing where to go, because that could be a dangerous situation. And it's my job to know where to go and how to get there and then instruct the dog command by command. And I think that's sort of the same thing, in a sense that you're really talking about, the individual has to be the one to consciously make the choice and learn the information necessary to make a conscious good choice.   Daniel Mangena  27:03 We need to have the tools and the resources to do what's going to move us forward. But I think it's even more potent in that the guide dog doesn't guide it supports in Go.   Michael Hingson  27:14 Because if you have a guide dog guide, but but it doesn't lead,   Daniel Mangena  27:18 leave this one sorry, the great fig, right? Because even when you're looking at having a coach or having a mentor having a think they can't live your life for you. And if you're waiting for them to tell you, then again, you you've given your power away. So it's actually even more beautiful, that the guide dog guides and doesn't lead. Yeah, it makes the point even more.   Michael Hingson  27:39 You mentioned and I think we both kind of mentioned control a little bit. One of the things that happened to me after September 11 Was I kept hearing people say, We got to get back to normal, we can't, we can't stay the way we are, we got to get back to normal. And it took me a long time to realize that when I felt anger or frustration over that, it was because the reality is normal would never be the same again. And we can't control going back to something that we'll never be able to do again. So I guess they're really two questions. One is getting back to normal. And we always change and we're going to do that. But the other thing is, we stress ourselves by worrying about so many things over which we don't have control.   Daniel Mangena  28:26 Well, I'll tackle the first bit first, in my opinion. So I like to refer back to nature and in nature. If at any point something stops growing, that's when it's dead. We as humans, when we die, something stops functioning, or if we die of old age, what happens is the telomeres in our DNA strand stop replicating. And therefore we lead to expiry, that's literally what happens. A plant that stops growing dies. And so when we say go back to normal, that's assuming that things are not growing and changing much to your point that if they're not growing or changing them, they're dying. So if we are at the same place of normal, then we're on the road to degradation. And so because of that something that's in a healthy space, healthy growing space is never going to be the same same, because it's always going to be move forward. So if we're looking to move back into space of degradation that's never going to be supportive. We want to be looking forward to Okay, based on the new information I've learned today, going back to what I was discussing earlier about reviewing at the end of the day, based on what I love based on the new things that come into my experience, the new input, the new skills, the new challenges, new questions, the new things have been uncovered. How am I going to approach tomorrow from a grown expanded place? Because we are looking for probably this control, we want to go let me go back to places familiar. So that can try and control things. But control is an illusion. And then when we look at the net, you know another big thing that's happened in our lifetimes, which is you know, it's a pandemic that is reportedly coming down to a close or whatever. I think one of the reasons why so many People are thrown into disarray is because they realize just how little control that they actually had, within a very, very short period of time, a lot of illusionary ideas of control was shown to be just that were shown to be illusions. And that's something that people struggled, I think to deal with. But control is an illusion, what we do have is creative capacity. But once the balls rolling, once those things are turning, it's what do I do with what's shown up based on what I can control, which for the most part is only me, my reactions, my choices in terms of Hamelin respond to something and my preparedness to deal with things that may or may not show up in my life. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  30:41 And the problem that we have is that we think we can control everything about us. And so when we don't have control, and we get that rude awakening, from time to time, we get very frustrated rather than going, Oh, why am I even worried about that? What am I going to be able to do about it? I'm in politics, for example, and politicians are always trying to control us through fear. And they don't have that control over us unless we let them. Likewise, we can't control what they do other than to step back in the case of the United States. And the House of Representatives, for example, every two years, we can decide whether this person is best representing us or not, and then say, you're welcome to stay or go away. That's the control that we have. But we we don't have a lot of the control that we think and there's so many other things, people are talking so much about climate change. In this country, it's discussed a lot in this country, we talk about inflation, I'm sure that's something that happens. Most places, the reality is a lot of the factors relating to that we don't have any control over. But we're allowing ourselves to be made to be afraid, by people who are just as clueless about that, but they want to blame somebody else rather than recognizing we don't have control over those things. How do we deal with what we have control over?   Daniel Mangena  32:18 I mean, in the US, for example, is a democratic country, what you've got is you've got the voting booth. Right? And then you've got discernment in terms of listening to people who haven't had a track record in leadership, or provided results or even, I mean, a lot of career politicians, or parts of the world. You look at their track record, what did that what have they done since they've been in office? Besides a career politician? They made promises and been voted into different offices at different points in their career? Have they actually been in integrity to those two points? What are they have they shown up? If you're going to get lost in return, you can get lost in, you know, at the height, which happens, I think, a lot in election cycles. Oh, yes, you know, the hype and all of the things, then that's where your power was your power was in was right there in who you voted in. If once someone's voted in, you're not going to do anything about using your voice in the voting booth or whatever. A lot of people don't bother voting, it doesn't change anything. Anyway, what you saying is, look, they're all the same. Okay, well, then find someone that's not the same. But not every person is the same.   Michael Hingson  33:28 Yeah, right. Well, and true. And yeah, you know, I hear so many people saying, well, why trust this guy, he speaks my language. That's not the issue. The issue is, what is he really done? What can you point to about this man or this woman? Not what other people say, but what has he really done or not done? Or the new person who wants to come in and says, I'm going to make all these changes? The issue still is, what have you done to demonstrate that you can do that don't talk in generalities gets   Daniel Mangena  34:06 not only what, what have you done? To say you can, what have you done to demonstrate that? You will?   Michael Hingson  34:13 Yeah, that's a good point. Absolutely. That's a good point. How do we know you're going to do it, you have to convince us or we should create that mindset. And ask those questions. I think that's really the issue. You're internationally right now than worrying about all the things that we can't control, we need to become more intentional about the way we vote.   Daniel Mangena  34:36 That's one thing. That's one thing. I was speaking to somebody a little while ago, and he was saying, you know, he's creating disruption in entrepreneurship. They said when a lot of these social issues were coming out what he did was he said, Okay, guys, I can talk about the social issues, but that's not going to change anything. Instead, what I'm going to do is we're going to make the voting day, a paid day off in this company, so that you You can actually go and do something real, we're not gonna sit here and talk about it and create division in the workplace, you have a way that you want this country to be run, head over to the voting booth, go and get involved in your local community, go and do something, read about it, and I will give you a paid day off to do that. And that's what he's doing instead, that, I think is a powerful way to approach   Michael Hingson  35:20 things. Yeah, you're giving people the opportunity, and you're sending a strong message, go do it. Mm hmm. Which, which makes a lot of sense. So as people are pondering when we talk about intentionality, and we talked about looking at what happens every day and analyzing what you do, some people might call that meditation what what do you think about the the idea of meditation? Or is that meditation? Or what do you think about all that?   Daniel Mangena  35:49 Meditation, for me is a tool to get into what scientists have measured to be a meditative state. That's literally the brainwaves in your brain operate in a certain speed. And that shows that your brain is then functioning a certain way. Now, not everybody gets to that place through the same medium, some people will try different types of traditionally taught meditation, some people can play a sport or go for a walk or spend time in nature, spending time with a loved one, spending time and just general science, it doesn't necessarily require sitting in lotus position. So there are many different ways to get back to that place. And I think that people should find the way that work for them, rather than looking at the cookie cutter approach to what they believe is going to actually work to get them to that place.   Michael Hingson  36:33 I took a course while in college on Transcendental Meditation. And I think that there's a lot of value and what it can offer. But even there, that as as people said, it's all about getting to a particular state of consciousness. And it's a way that can be very successful. And a lot of it has to do with taking your mind out of just thinking about the typical day to day things that go on in your world, and giving yourself the the opportunity to relax. And, and to get to that meditative state, if you will, which is what we don't do. And, you know, we have, I don't know whether you've Have you ever read read the book 10% happier? No, I've not read Dan, who used to be on Good Morning America. He, he wrote this book called 10%, happier, because he got involved in meditation. And one of the things that he talks about in the book is, there's more than one way to meditate. But And meditation is really all about getting to a particular state of consciousness and getting to the place where you can back off from the typical day to day things, especially those that you don't have any control over.   Daniel Mangena  37:51 Which again, so many of us are just caught up in what we're scared of what we don't want, what we want other people to do what we want from other people versus what is it that I actually desire to create, and what can I do here and now to support my movement towards that? And then doing it?   Michael Hingson  38:07 Yeah. And at the same time, if you suddenly discover well, maybe I need to have a course correction. That's okay, too. Great. We don't tend to do nearly as much as we could about do do court doing course corrections.   Daniel Mangena  38:28 Yeah, but coursework correction often means moving outside of the known moving into the unknown. Sure, nothing moving beyond what feels safe and comfortable. And that's not what we as humans often do, we're often looking for the easy way out, because,   Michael Hingson  38:46 well, that's the society we taught. We taught that.   Daniel Mangena  38:49 Yeah, but guess what, there is also available information for another way to do things. And we have to take responsibility for what we do. I mean, this information that this conversation is going to be out in the wild, right? So people have the opportunity to have an E, an E shop, you know, conversations like this that are happening, there are literally millions of pieces of content out there probably have a positive nature. But if I'm going to be focused on the negativity or fear and doubt and anxiety, then how am I even going to be available for different kinds of input? And it's only my responsibility as to whether I'm going to tune into the uplifting expansive one or get lost in the negative side one.   Michael Hingson  39:32 Yeah. And what we need to do is to really be curious enough to go look for them again, and that gets back to the whole college discussion. I think that way too many of us in what we do we expect somebody just to give us the answers, and we don't tend to be nearly as curious as we ought to be. I remember when I was just a child living in Chicago, before I was five, my father owned a business to repair televisions that was back in the days when you unplug vacuum tubes and you put in new ones, or you replaced a picture tube or you smelled a burn resistor and you replaced it and the TV worked again. And I would go with him occasionally. And one of the things that he said is, don't put your hand inside the TV. And I didn't necessarily deliberately do that. But I remember one time when I got shocked, because I put my hand on something. And I'm, as I sit here and think about it, I think it was an accident, I   Daniel Mangena  40:44 don't think I was going well, what why can't I put my finger in there? What's going to happen? But I learned what an electric shock was all about.   Michael Hingson  40:52 And that actually made me curious more than anything else. And so then he showed me a TV that was not plugged in and discharged. But but I used it as a learning experience. And and I was curious to understand what it was all about. But I think we tend to not grow up to be as curious as we ought to be. There's a lot of validity. And when somebody says, Well, why that you say why not? You know, there's nothing wrong with that.   Daniel Mangena  41:25 When it goes back to we were talking about earlier, when we spoke about about people's challenges in the law of vibration that if I'm only asking for thinking from a place of why not? What can't happen, what's not possible that those are the only quality of answers that I can get, I can only get the quality of answers that matches that level of inquiry.   Michael Hingson  41:44 Right. Right in but you know, for somebody who says, Well, why why should we do that? And then my response is still why not explore something new? Mm hmm. Which, which makes perfect sense. Tell me what what you think about or know about things like the law of attraction.   Daniel Mangena  42:06 Law of Attraction is not a primary universal law. It's a secondary universal law. So primary universal laws are the ones they're like elements. And then you've got compounds which form the secondary laws. So the actual primary law against a from which the law of attraction is is drawn is the law of vibration that we've been speaking about, which is like attracts like, basically, we experienced what we're a vibrational match to, and thought is one of the components of, of that vibrational match, you've got emotional state as well. So I think, in my opinion, the law of attraction has become popular because it feels like the easy way out when actually fully operating to the primary law really means a complete overhaul of what we're doing in terms of how we show up in the world, what we're thinking, what we're feeling, the actions and choices that we're making, because all of those things encompass our vibration. And once we are vibrationally aligned to a particular outcome, the law of attraction kicks in. And we find ourselves being attracted to and being and things been attracted to us that match that state of that state of being that we're in. And so your attraction is real. However, it is not a primary law, it's a secondary law. And it's not more work than people have been led to believe that it is, in my opinion. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  43:20 A lot of it has to do with vibration. And when we, when we aligned vibrations, we are also projecting that whether we realize it or not whatever our vibration or our state is, we do project it. We one person on this podcast a while ago, talked about an experiment that someone did with plants. And when people projected a more positive image in their own mind, the plants reacted differently than when they thought about killing the plant or pouring hot water on the plant or digging the plant up. There was a noticeable difference in the way the plants and what they did were through measurements, actually how they were behaving was all done simply mentally.   Daniel Mangena  44:18 I mean, thought is real thoughts have ideas can be measured. They can be measured, they can be weighted, there's some substance to it. And if we honor that, and, and bring a level of intentionality to how showing up with our thoughts and emotions, we'll start to see that measured things showing up in a measured way in our physical life every day.   Michael Hingson  44:38 One of the things I think you do is you encourage people to manifest money. Tell me about that.   Daniel Mangena  44:44 Yeah, I mean, I'll be quick about this because we're running low on the clock now, but I'm okay. I mean, if you're okay, no, I've got I've got something. I've got something afterwards. We had a lot of people come into our world that wanted to create new license ourselves. And time and time again, what we're finding is that people were using that they don't have enough resources to live that life, it was more concerned with people living a life that was joyful, that was contribution contribution, that nourished and filled them and had meaning. But this excuse of resources kept coming up. And so the move to going a lot more deeply into supporting people around the money was twofold. Firstly, if people have resources, they have less space for that excuse. And secondly, the playbook for creating our reality is the same across the board, there isn't a different playbook for creating different relationships and creating money and creating health. It's the same playbook, but our perspective creates a distorted lens that gives the illusion that all of these playbooks are different, right. And so when we have a measured playing field, that we can develop the skill of manifesting what we want, then we can take that skill, take that level of mastery and start to apply it to other areas. If I tell you, I'm going to help you be happy, we can't really measure that maybe we can have you fill a form in or check your emotions, but your emotions can change second, a second. But if I say here's a playbook for you to bring $100 into your account, and it works, then you know, it works, when you know we've had people that we've taken to be millionaires to be being financially free to having six figures to pay off their debts and all sorts of things. They've got a measured result, and they've gone on a journey with that measured result that they can go and take and apply to other areas. So it's not because I think money is more important than other things. Because when we have resources, we've got more choice number one and number two, when we've got a measured journey that we've gone on, of learning to create a life for ourselves, we can take that skill and apply it to any part of our life.   Michael Hingson  46:44 Money is a great resource and visible item that people can use to discover that playbook. And of course, that makes a lot of sense that that's one of the reasons you would use something like money as a perfect example. Because it is measurable. What is micro shifting?   Daniel Mangena  47:06 Micro shifting is defined as a consistent series of baby steps made in the direction of a consciously chosen outcome. That's literally the dynamism of this definition. And what micro shifting is all about is recognizing that everybody can make big leaps. They can, but will they are but everybody can make baby steps. Everyone has the capacity. So we've all got the potential for big leaps, big Quantum Leap, but everybody has the capacity for baby steps. And we make when we make those on a consistent basis, we can always get to that end goal no matter how big it is.   Michael Hingson  47:36 So you've written how many books now, from time   Daniel Mangena  47:39 to time dream is manifesto for books.   Michael Hingson  47:43 Gotta go figure him out again.   Daniel Mangena  47:45 Hello books. I've contributed in a few more. I've had the honor of being in a book with one of my mentors, Greg Reed. I was in a book with Jack Canfield success and omics. I think that was last year, that book came out. I've contributed chapters to a few other books, but I have four of my own   Michael Hingson  48:00 four of your own. Well, I know that you don't have a lot of time, it's getting late and in time to do whatever one does in Cabo. But how can people reach out to you and learn more about what you do and perhaps contact you and have a chance to visit?   Daniel Mangena  48:23 Definitely get head over to dreamwithdan.com dreamwithdan.com. And we've got a really cool resource, we've actually got a quiz that we developed, that helps you to discover what your block to abundance is, and gives you some resources to actually move through those. So head over to dreamwithdan.com. There's a lot of free resources, including that quiz that they can go and have a go of in there. And just let us know how you get on.   Michael Hingson  48:45 Can they? Can they contact you through that site? Or is there a better way   Daniel Mangena  48:48 that they can always contact through the website? Yeah,   Michael Hingson  48:50 so dreamwithdan.com? Well, I hope people will do that. Have any of your books I always ask this when people have written books, have any of your books to your knowledge been converted to audio,   Daniel Mangena  49:01 yet, we've got stepping beyond intention, but we're doing the re the RE release of that book right now that we got, I got a book deal early this year. And we're releasing that book, when that book is re released, I will be personally re recording the audio books, I'm probably going to do that I'm stopping work in November this year. I'm gonna have a lot of time off. I'm looking to sit down in there and get that audio book re recorded.   Michael Hingson  49:23 Cool. Well be excited to to read it. And I know other people will as well. And hopefully, they'll they'll go out and find some of your other other books and that they will learn and I think we all will I found this instructive and inspiring. And I'm really glad that you came and we appreciate it. And if you want to come back on and we find more to talk about I would love that anytime you'd like to watch as well do it and what's your podcasts so people can find you your podcast?   49:53 Yes, everything's on the website. This is a really great sort of roadmap to everything but we've got Do It With Dan which is my motivational podcast. And we've got beyond success, which is my business podcast. But the links to that information about them and some of the guests that we've had both on the website drew with dan.com.   Michael Hingson  50:08 Cool. Well, Dan, thanks again. And we really appreciate you being with us. And for all of you listening, thanks very much, I hope you'll give us a five star rating, I would appreciate it if you would give us a five star rating right now as we finish, wherever you're listening to us. I would also be very happy if you'd reach out to me directly. If you've got any thoughts or comments. You can email me at Michaelhi at accessibe.com. And or go to our podcast page, Michael hingson.com/podcast. And of course, you know how to now get to Dan dreamwithdan.com. So Dan, is the website accessible? I should ask that Do you know?   Daniel Mangena  50:50 I don't know. But it's definitely something that I'll be looking into having?   Michael Hingson  50:53 Well, we'll talk about that. And we can we can talk about that and accessibe. Which is a great tool to help with that. But Dan, thanks again for being with us. We really appreciate it. And we hope to have you on again.   Daniel Mangena  51:05 Of course. Thank you so much.   Michael Hingson  51:07 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

I'm flying solo for episode 103 after a terrific past few days with my daughter.Buzzsprout sent some fun stats for our 2022 year, and here are the highlights:The podcast has grown by 50% over the previous year. 37 countries are listening! Your favorites in review--You will learn:5.What Happens When a Stranger Shows Up for the First 12 Years of Life to Take You Away? (Guest Bee Baumann) 4. Miracles and Fate on 78 Author Ari Schonbrun Shares His Transformation After Surviving 9/11 in Tower One 3.When Stand-Up Comedian Karen Mills Found Something Funny in Her Belly 2. How Kerryn Vaughan Allowed the Loss of Her Sister to Help Others and Change Her World1. The Truth About Happily Ever After and the Journey of Recovering (From Anything!)It's me! Just before #stolenbytheirfather was released, based on my book, Pieces of Me: Rescuing My Kidnapped Father, I talked about my thoughts on recovery from trauma.Thanks for your reviews, your questions, your shares, your participation. Massive gratitude!Want to support the podcast even more?Consider being a patron.See you next week.Resources: Home Where You Belong Podcast by Chip AlfordLizbeth's links Support the podcast and Lizbeth's writing for $2 or $5 a month on Patreon HEREOR Buy Lizbeth a Coffee Pieces of Me: Rescuing My Kidnapped Daughters

Michael (Mike) Hingson. I am president of The Michael Hingson Group, Inc. and the chief vision officer for accessiBeBlind since birth, Michael Hingson was born to sighted parents who raised him with a can-do attitude. Always a high achiever, Michael learned how to ride a bike, and was able to do advanced math in his head! He received a Master's Degree in Physics, and a Secondary Teaching Credential. Michael worked for high-tech companies in management until September 11, 2001 when he and his guide dog Roselle escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the WTC. Thrust into the international limelight, Michael began to share lessons of trust, courage, and teamwork based on this experience. Mike is the author of the #1 NY Times Bestseller “Thunder dog,” selling over 2.5 million copies, and his 2nd book “Running with Roselle, A story for Our Youth.” An international public speaker, Mike delivers inspiring and thought-provoking messages to the world's elite, including President George W. Bush, and has appeared on hundreds of TV and Radio programs, including Larry King. Hired by major organizations, Michael speaks on perseverance, the importance of trust and teamwork, and moving from diversity to inclusion. www.michaelhingson.comwww.marlanasemenza.comAudio : Ariza Music Productions

Jennifer Lieberman comes by her writing and creativity honestly. She has been writing, organizing, and working toward a career in theater writing ever since she was a student in school. She has written her own one-person play as well as a book entitled “Year of the What” based on the play.   As Jennifer tells us about her life, she discusses living in New York City during the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001. She will discuss how her life changed after that day.   Jennifer clearly is a person who set goals for herself and then worked to achieve them. She is absolutely unstoppable. I think you will enjoy this interview and the creative personality of this wonderful person.   About the Guest: After years of pounding the pavement and knocking on doors with no success of breaking into the entertainment industry, Jennifer decided to take matters into her own hands and created the solo-show Year of the Slut. This show proved to be her break and the play went on to win the Audience Choice Award in New York City and is now the #1 Amazon Best Selling novel Year of the What? and was awarded the Gold Medal at the Global Book Awards 2022 for Coming of Age Books. Since deciding to make her own break Lieberman has appeared in over 30 international stage productions, has produced over 40 independent film and theatre productions and has helped over 100 creatives make their own break through her coaching and consulting work. She has penned a number of stage and screen plays and her short films have screened at the Festival de Cannes Court Métrage among other international festivals. She is currently gearing up to direct her first feature film.   Social Media Links: Twitter: https://twitter.com/iamjenlieberman Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamjenlieberman/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/iamjenlieberman Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-lieberman-33b20426/       About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:21 Hi, again, it's Michael Hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset, the podcast where inclusion diversity in the unexpected me. And today, Jennifer Lieberman, our guest I think certainly has lots of unexpected things that she's going to tell us about. If you don't know, Jennifer, and you may or may not know who she is, I will just tell you that you want to talk about unexpected. She wrote her own one person play called The year of the slug, and we're gonna get into that I am sure, along with a lot of other things. So Jennifer, welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you?   Jennifer Lieberman  02:00 I'm fabulous. Michael, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to chat with you today.   Michael Hingson  02:07 Well, we're really excited that you're here. And I know you do have lots of stories and you faced a lot of challenges. And it will be good to go through some of those. Why don't we start new sort of telling me a little bit about your early life and how you kind of progressed a little bit?   Jennifer Lieberman  02:21 Sure. So I started off as the competitive gymnast. And I was in competition. By the time I was five, and was training almost every day after school. By the time I was eight years old. I kind of had a natural aptitude for the sport. And that was my main focus for a really long time. And then I ended up coaching, I founded a high school team. And I think it's relevant because from a very early age, I had to have like a certain amount of discipline. And that discipline has really helped me with longevity in the creative world where it's It's a thankless business a lot of the time.   Michael Hingson  03:11 So where are you from originally?   Jennifer Lieberman  03:13 Oh, yes, I'm from. I was born in Toronto raised in Maple, Canada, just outside of Toronto. I went to York University in Toronto, I studied philosophy and English Lit. And when I graduated, I moved to New York City to pursue a career in theatre. I started writing at a young age, I was about eight years old when I started writing scripts. Originally, it started off as fan fiction for shows that I wanted to be on as a child. And then by the time I was 12, I my imagination evolved enough to create my own plots and characters and storylines that weren't borrowing from worlds that were previously created by other writers. So it was always something in me. But like I said, gymnastics was the main focus, you know, until halfway through high school when I had a career ending knee injury. But like, I still love the sport and love being in the gym. So coaching kind of allowed me to stay in the world that I was used to. And then in university is when I started taking acting classes, and I just kind of never looked back like I am in love with the creative process, whether it's writing performance, filmmaking, and I've developed a lot of skills over the years in order to stay working and stay in the game. Because especially as an actor, you don't have a lot of agency or control over when you get picked And what you get picked for.   Michael Hingson  05:02 So for you, philosophy ended up sort of being a means to an end, as opposed to being a career that you are going to go into in some way. Well,   Jennifer Lieberman  05:11 actually, I studied philosophy, it's interesting that you bring it up, but the Greeks are who invented theatre. That's where a theater was born in these Greek Dionysian festivals, and, you know, East Escalus. Like all of these writers wrote, theatrically, and that's kind of, you know, philosophy played on these stories, or at least in the earlier days, so it always felt connected to me. Philosophy, Greek philosophy, mythology, it was all kind of wrapped up in some sort of performance.   Michael Hingson  05:53 But you went through and got a degree in philosophy, and then you move to New York, is that because you wanted to go into Broadway? Oh, yeah. And   Jennifer Lieberman  06:01 also, like, my parents didn't consider a degree in theater a degree, you know. And I knew, I also knew that I was a writer. And then I wanted to tackle, you know, topics that were, you know, that would challenge people. And that would make people think and different points of view. So I thought, for the writing side of it, because it was never just to be an actor, it was always an actor who wrote projects. So the philosophy and the English Lit just seemed like a great jumping off point in order to develop my skills, grappling different difficult subject matters and structure and theatrical writing and all of that stuff.   Michael Hingson  06:49 Well, so you move to New York. And I guess something that none of us would know. Listening to you and talking with you here is your half African did that have a an impact on you and being able to break into this industry? Or?   Jennifer Lieberman  07:07 No, not at all, because I look, I look like a white girl, I'm my dad's side is Polish. My mother is tunisienne from Tunis. 10 is yeah, she immigrated to Canada with her parents and siblings, and she was the young girl. So so nobody has any inkling of my African roots, unless I actually mentioned it. So, um, so yeah, that's kind of something that's very unexpected, and people don't really place me in that category. Even though I really identify with my 10 ASEAN, heritage and culture, especially traditions, you know, family traditions, things like that my was very close to both of my 10 ASEAN grandparents, I they grew up five houses away from where I grew up, so I saw them almost every day. And that is just ingrained in who I am.   Michael Hingson  08:12 So does that make you essentially a bi racial person?   Jennifer Lieberman  08:16 Um, you know, it's funny, cuz my sense, it's, my family is North African. And like I said, like, my grandfather had dark skin, but my grandmother had light skin. I don't even know if I would be considered biracial. Because once again, like, by looking at me, you couldn't really tell I don't appear to be bipoc. So it's not something that really comes up. Actually. I don't even know what people would consider me to be honest.   Michael Hingson  08:49 A writer and an actress. Yes, so so it really didn't have much of an impact, which is, which is cool. Well, it shouldn't anyway, but it seemed relevant to ask the question. You know, so you, you move to New York. Tell us about that. Where did you go? What did you do in New York? And and what's your favorite bagel place? You know, all the important things?   Jennifer Lieberman  09:17 Yes. Um, so I basically after my last exam, I didn't even wait around for graduation. I wasn't there. On the day, they gave out diplomas because I really didn't care about a diploma. I felt like that was more an obligation I had to fulfill for my parents sake, and then I could start my life. So I showed up in New York and like I say, with a duffel bag and a dream and I was just like, I'm here and stumbled my way. I had rented an apartment sight unseen, which was not a great apartment and last in there very long. And I'm Just basically there was a newspaper back then called Backstage, it used to be a physical newspaper, now you can get an online subscription. And I just started looking in the newspaper that was specifically for the acting world and started circling different auditions I could show up at or submit to. And that's how it all began. And I was fortunate enough to get in with a couple of different theatre companies. And I was able to work with the same people. consistently over time, there were three different companies that I was working with consistently. So that helped me grow and develop as an artist. And one of the companies I ended up becoming a producer at 22. So I learned every aspect, from carpentry using power tools to help get the sets made to running the lighting and sound stage management, costuming, anything that was needed. You just kind of when you're an off off Broadway company without any real funding. You just scraped together whatever you can to make it happen. But also, pardon? Go ahead. Oh, but also those lessons have been invaluable for where I am now. Because, you know, not having the perfect sort of circumstances, or the amount of money we wish we had has never deterred me from making something happen.   Michael Hingson  11:37 So you wore many hats. And you obviously learned a lot as you went along. What was kind of the biggest challenge that you had back in those early days?   Jennifer Lieberman  11:47 Oh, well, I grew up in a really small town. My neighbors were trees. So getting used to the fast paced kind of hustle and bustle of New York City. It was a huge culture shock for me, I grew up in the middle of nowhere, and then move to the center of the world, with everything happening. And just as I was starting to get my footing in New York, 911 happened. And   Michael Hingson  12:18 where were you at the time,   Jennifer Lieberman  12:21 I was on my way to work. I was walking towards the subway at Astor Place, I was living in Alphabet City, and witnessed the first plane, fly into the World Trade Center and thought it was a fluke accident and got on the subway and continued with my day.   Michael Hingson  12:49 So for people who don't know where is Alphabet City, and what is   Jennifer Lieberman  12:52 Oh, yes, so Alphabet City is like the East most part of the East Village. So I was at Avenue D and 10th street. That's where I was living. I didn't last very long in that apartment. I moved in there. And on September 1, and I think by the 15th of September, I had packed everything up and went back to Canada for a while because I couldn't handle the reality of what happened. And I needed to go home. As   Michael Hingson  13:31 I went, he didn't last long either. You just   Jennifer Lieberman  13:35 got damnit, I'm going back to New York.   Michael Hingson  13:38 So you, you said you argued with people, as you were going on the subway and so on. Tell us about that if you want.   Jennifer Lieberman  13:46 I argued with people who were saying it was a terrorist attack. Because at that age, you know, the level of innocence being raised very sheltered in a small town in Canada. I was just like, This doesn't happen, like we're living in, you know, 2001 like, What do you mean? No, this is impossible that somebody hijacked a plane and flew it into a building in the United States. Like it's impossible. I just thought it was a freak accident and continued to work. And you know, there were arguments on the subway because some people saw it as we were all getting on the subway together. But then there were other people who had been on the subway for a while and are hearing it for the first time. So there was a panic. And then I got to two I was working at 34th and Park at a real estate company. That was my side hustle at the time. And I told my boss what happened. And he got really angry with me. And he said that it's not funny, like we don't joke about these things. And I was like, I'm not joke like, who wouldn't joke about these things? Like, turn on the radio. And he did. And that's when we heard about the second plane. And I just remember, like my soul leaving my body at the realization that it couldn't be an accident if there were two that happened in that short amount of time. Like, it was just literally, I felt my innocence Leave me. And yeah, I became a different person that day.   Michael Hingson  15:32 I think a lot of us did. One of my employees was on the PATH train paths stands for Port Authority, trans Hudson, it goes under the river. But he was on the PATH train coming in from Hoboken. They just pulled into the path station under tower Well, under the central part of the World Trade Center. Yep. At the fourth sub level when the second plane hit. And he told me later, the train just started shaking and so on in the pilot, the pilot, the conductor, and the engineer just said, don't leave the train. And they just literally turned around and went back. Right, in Hoboken, because I think they may have known that something was going on. But they didn't know, of course, about the second plane, because it was happening in real time. But nevertheless, they just turned around, went back to New Jersey. Yeah. Yeah, it was just Well, and, of course, who would have thought, right? Exactly. It's one of those things that it's really hard to imagine. And I can understand your reaction. And it did change all of us who were there. And as I've said to many people, and my wife has really pointed this out the problem for most people, certainly the people outside of the immediate area where this occurred that is outside New York City and so on, or further away, who just couldn't see what was happening. Your view, not yours, because you were there. But the view of people was only as large as your TV screen or your newspaper. And you couldn't have the same impact in your mind as all of us who were there at the time did. So you went back to Canada for a couple of months. And that's sort of understandable. You had a place to escape to as it were.   Jennifer Lieberman  17:33 Yeah. First I went to the Poconos. So I had a good friend Heather. She was initially my roommate. And then we, you know, we both ended up living in Alphabet City, actually. But she moved in with a boyfriend. And you know, no cell phones were working. As you know, all the cell towers were down because they were in the Trade Center. So we couldn't get I couldn't call my parents. I couldn't call anyone in Canada. But Heather and I somehow found each other on the street. And I guess it took two or three days for her dad to be able to drive to the city and get us because the city was closed. They weren't letting any vehicles in or out of the city. And I ended up going her dad picked us up. It was her boyfriend at the time. She and myself. And we went to their house in the Poconos for a few days. And then I got back to the city. And I don't know if planes were back up in the air yet, but I took the train home to Toronto, it was like a 12 hour train ride. And I just like packed up everything I had and just hopped on the train. Because I also felt like my dreams were so trite and insignificant compared to the weight of what happened. And I felt silly. I felt you know that everything that was so important to me the day before, was completely superfluous after that incident.   Michael Hingson  19:12 Yeah, what could you do? And it it makes perfect sense that you just left. You're fortunate to be able to do that. Some cell phones were working that day because I was able to call my wife in New Jersey. She couldn't call me. But I could call her interesting. And we were able to, to communicate learned later that day that the trains had started running from Penn Station in New York to Penn Station in Newark. So I was able to get a train later that evening, back to Newark, and then catch the train going from Newark out to Westfield, where we lived. So we got home at about seven that night. It was interesting being on the train, going from New York to New Jersey, people came up to me and said, You're really dirty. Were you downtown? And I said, Yeah, I was in Tower One. And it was interesting while we were going to the train station, from the apartment of a friend of my colleague, David's who I was with, although it wasn't the same as typical, still cars were moving, there was traffic. And it seemed like even only being a few miles away, it was already so significantly different than what we were experiencing downtown.   Jennifer Lieberman  20:40 Oh, yeah, the whole world stopped. If you were on the island of Manhattan, the whole world stopped, you know, and I ended up in New Jersey as well, actually. Because I was beneath 14th street and they didn't really want anybody coming back home if you were below 14th street because they didn't know. Like we talked about before we started recording, you know, gas leaks, fires under the city, things like that the fires could travel through the subway lines, you know, through the tunnels and stuff. So I ended up in New Jersey at a colleague's place for I guess, the first couple of nights. And yeah, it was it's It's surreal. It was just, that's the only word. You know, I can think   Michael Hingson  21:30 of was just how did you get to New Jersey?   Jennifer Lieberman  21:32 I believe I took a train from Penn Station.   Michael Hingson  21:35 Okay, so you were able to catch a train too, which was cool.   Jennifer Lieberman  21:39 Yeah, I was able to catch a train. Yeah, it was. I can't even   Michael Hingson  21:45 Well, let's, let's go back to you. So you moved back to Canada for a little while. Yeah.   Jennifer Lieberman  21:50 Canada. And you know, that didn't last? No, it didn't last because, you know, after I got over the initial shock of what actually happened. I was like, Yeah, you know, my dreams are important to me. And art is just as important as ever, especially during a crisis, having writers and having theater and having stories and people who are able to tell stories in compelling ways. And I basically did a, I did a one ad. And when all I went right back to what I was doing before, with an even stronger conviction than I had previously.   Michael Hingson  22:37 So what happened?   Jennifer Lieberman  22:40 So I continued with the theatre company that I was with, and I got into, like I said, couple other theatre companies I was performing off off Broadway pretty regularly. I was with a mime company called the American mime theatre, and trained and performed as a mime for a few years. And this company was quite special. It was funded by the National Endowment for the Arts. And it was its own medium. It wasn't a copy of French pantomime. It was its own discipline. And that was actually coming. You know what, when we got to the one woman shows, but doing the mind training was the best foundation I could have asked for moving forward and doing one person shows where I was playing multiple characters and had to snap in and out of them very quickly. And being able to just snap into a physicality that made it very clear to the audience that I was somebody new, or somebody different as to the character who was previous. So yeah, I ended up producing a bunch of shows off Broadway got into film production. I was in New York for about six years and, and just try to learn as much as I could and craft as much as I could. I started working with a director named Jim craft offered rest in peace he passed a couple years ago during the pandemic, not from COVID. But he was a phenomenal writer and director he studied under Ilya Khazanah at the actor studio, and his play to patch it was a real tipping point in my artistic career. I had to play a mentally challenged girl who was raped and murdered. And once I was able to get through that, I realized like yeah, I really prove to myself like okay, this is where I belong. You know, I have the I have the chops. I have the stamina, I have the drive and you You know, that was like a big milestone, also, in terms of it was the most challenging role that I had ever come across. And I really had to rise to the occasion. And a lot of times in creative work, like until you were given the opportunity to rise to the occasion, you don't know what you're made of. So that was a huge milestone for me. And then, while I was working after I was working on capatch it, my grandma got sick, and I ended up back in Toronto for about a year and a half to help my mom, and my grandma got better and which was great. And then I decided to give la a try. One of the films that I had produced in New York was in a festival in LA and I went to the festival, the film won a couple of awards. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna give Hollywood a shot now. And that's, that's what happened next.   Michael Hingson  26:01 Well, typically, people always want to get noticed and seen and so on. So what kind of was really your big break? And in terms of whether it be Broadway or wherever? And why do you consider it a big break?   Jennifer Lieberman  26:16 Okay, um, so I, when I was in LA, I had been there for about a year and this is where Europe the sled came into play. A friend suggested that I create a vehicle for myself that, you know, everybody comes from all over the world, to have their, you know, hat in the ring and give it a try to be a star in Hollywood. And very, very, very few people make it. And you have to kind of come up with a way to get noticed. So a friend of mine suggested, do a one woman show, showcase your writing, showcase your acting ability, and you can invite agents, you can invite directors, you can invite people that can hire you people that can represent you, and that will be a good vehicle. So I did what she said. And nobody from the industry really showed up, I kind of compare it to the movie lala land with Emma Stone where she does this one woman show and there's like one person in the audience, I had more than one person, because I had supportive friends from acting class and my mom came from Canada. But in terms of industry, nobody, nobody who could represent me or hired me show up showed up. However, I had so much fun creating the characters working on the show, and taking so this was like the next plateau in my career to patch it, where I played the mentally challenged girl was like the first kind of plateau of being like, okay, you know, you really have to rise to the occasion, doing an hour and a half on stage by yourself playing 10 characters was a whole different level of rising to the occasion. And I did it successfully expecting to fail. And not only that, so much of my time in LA up until that point, had been trying to get in the door, trying to get the job trying to get the audition. And none of that was actually doing what I went there to do, which was being creative, and performing. So I realized, like, okay, of course, I'm still going to submit to auditions. And I'm still going to try and get an agent and all of that. But in the meantime, I have the agency and the ability to create this piece and develop it and keep going with it. And I did and I did a few different workshops in LA and then I got invited to be in a festival in New York, I won the Audience Choice Award at the festival and then Doom like that was the next kind of plateau because now not only could I did I prove to myself, I could do a one woman show, but I proved that it could be recognized and successful. And that led to another one woman show in Australia. And then when I got back from Australia, because at this point in time, I had been a producer for hire for many, many years I had been producing since I was 22. And I had produced well over a dozen film and theatre projects at this point. And I was like huh, I I can help other actors who are frustrated spinning their wheels achieve what I achieved. And that's when I founded my company make your own break. So you know, nobody ever gave me a big break. I'd like them to if anyone has a big break waiting, I'll take it. But, um, but also realizing that I could do this for myself and I can do this for other actors and writers on a small scale was really exciting to me, because I love the creative process. And I love working with actors, and I love working with writers and storytelling, and I love helping I call it I love helping people dig for the gold that's inside of them, because everybody has a treasure buried inside. But a lot of times we're we're not put in situations that push ourselves to actually dig for it. Especially when we're in situations where other people are giving us opportunities, as opposed to us having to really dig down inside and figure out how do I create this opportunity for myself?   Michael Hingson  30:53 Well, and it's also true that oftentimes, we don't necessarily recognize the opportunities are right there for the taking.   Jennifer Lieberman  31:02 Exactly, exactly. And then so creating the one woman show set me on this whole trajectory of I'm just going to keep creating my own stuff. And I created a web series with a friend of mine from acting class, we wrote it together, we produced it together, we both starred in it. You know, it wasn't like commercially successful, like, there's dismal. You know, we did this almost 10 years ago, and there's like dismal YouTube views. It's very embarrassing, but it's also one of the things I'm the most proud of, I had the most fun working on it, I loved everything about it. And it's one of those projects where all the problems with it could have been solved if we had more money. And, to me, that's a success. Because, you know, we couldn't help the fact that we didn't have more money to make it. And the fact that you know, okay, fine, you know, the, the camera work wasn't fantastic, or the stats weren't fantastic, you know, but all the actors were fantastic. The directing was fantastic, the writing was fantastic, you know, so so I'm so super proud of that. And then Rebecca, my partner on that we made a short film together. And then I finally finally after decades of being a writer, because I started writing when I was eight, had the confidence to produce something that I had written on my own. And that was my short film leash. And that ended up screening at the short film corner at the Cannes Film Festival, which was like another huge milestone, I still couldn't get any agents or managers or anybody to take me on or represent me. But at this point, it's like, I got my film that I made that I wrote that, you know, that I produced that I was in to the biggest, most important film festival in the world. And I'm like, okay, that like, you know, even though the industry quote unquote, you know, hasn't recognized me yet. In terms of like, the agents and the managers and staff that's like, there must be something valid to my creativity. And then I made another short film, and it also got screened in the short film corner at the Cannes Film Festival on screen at the Cambridge Film Festival in the UK, and it just kind of, you know, so all these little bits of validation, they haven't turned into, you know, the career that I'm aspiring towards, but it's all encouragement. That helps me keep going.   Michael Hingson  33:57 You certainly are unstoppably optimistic.   Jennifer Lieberman  34:01 Well, the thing is, I don't even think it's that. I think it's just I don't have a choice. This is just who I am. It's what I do. I just keep creating, I can't help it. There was this movie years ago with Jeffrey rush called quills about the marquis decide, and how he was imprisoned because of his writing and how he was persecuted. And, you know, he kept writing no matter what he kept writing, he would write in blood on his bedsheets. And eventually he was just nude in a in a cell with nothing, because they needed to stop him from writing the depraved material that he was writing. And, you know, it was just I wouldn't say my my compulsion is that extreme. But yeah, I don't feel like this is something I chose. I feel like it chose me It's something inside of me. And I get very depressed when I'm not able to have a creative outlet. You know, it's almost survival, which I know sounds completely absurd, but any other creative who has the same conviction? I do, it makes complete sense to them.   Michael Hingson  35:23 Well, you wrote starred in and did everything regarding, of course, your, your one woman show your of the slot what happened to it? Because it did oh yeah appear and you had some awards with it and so on. So what happened?   Jennifer Lieberman  35:39 So, um, in the interim, so once we won the award in New York, some people, like lots of people, actually friends, colleagues, people that I didn't know, suggested that it would be a great Chiclet book, and that I should write the novel. So I did, I wrote, I wrote the novel and shopped it around for a couple years. But once again, I was so green, it didn't even occur to me, like, oh, you should hire an editor, and you should hire a proofreader. And you should get a whole team of people together before you start sending it to agents and, and, you know, publishing companies. So I gave up on it. Over a decade, I probably gave up on it about three times. You know, the first time, I was completely unprepared. The second time, I did hire an editor, and she just was the wrong fit. And it didn't resonate with her. So she was just very cruel in her feedback. And I couldn't look at it for another two years. And, and then finally, a friend of mine encouraged me to finish it and self publish it not to be successful, but just to get to the finish line, and not have one more project hanging over me that's unfinished. So with that state of mind, it was actually kind of a relief, because it's like, Oh, I'm not even trying to make this book successful. I'm just trying to get to the finish line. And then I did, and I, I self published Europe, the sled and it was censored. And for a good year, I tried my damnedest to get around the censorship issues with Amazon, Facebook, Instagram, in terms of advertising. It was allowed to be on Amazon, I was allowed to have a Facebook page, I was allowed to have an Instagram account, but it couldn't do any advertising, which means I couldn't break through my audience of peers. So if you weren't already my friend, I couldn't get the information to you. Which kind of made it dead in the water. A colleague of mine after a year suggested to change the title since that was the only barrier. And I was like, No, the title is what's you know, is why it was a success in the first place. That's what packed houses. Village Voice had no problem. Printing ads with the title timeout in New York had no problem none of the, you know, none of the entities that came to review the play had problems publishing the title. But I guess since it was published after the ME TOO movement, the climate had changed a little bit. And we weren't able to. Yeah, well, I just wasn't able to get it out there. So after a few months of hemming and hawing over the whole situation, because I had the title before I had the story. I'm just I was just pretty good at coming up with catchy titles. So I was really married to it and then finally revamped it, retitled it, rebranded it, relaunched it. And it's now a number one bestseller on Amazon. It recently won the gold medal at the Global Book Awards for Best Coming of Age book, it won a bronze medal at the independent publishing Awards for Best romance slash erotica ebook. And, yeah, it's won a couple more, but those are the most notable and it served me well to to retitle the book so,   Michael Hingson  39:30 and the title of the book is   Jennifer Lieberman  39:32 near of the what, so it rhymes with slut. But it's not as controversial. And it actually serves me because in the process of, of publishing this first one, I realized that it's a trilogy and Book Two is going to be year of the bitch and I'll have the same problems. So I'm just going to keep it under the year of the white umbrella. a lot.   Michael Hingson  40:01 I would I would submit, maybe not. I know there is, well, I suppose anything's possible. But my wife and I love to read a variety of books. And we've written or we've read a number of books by an author Barbara Nino. So she wrote the Stasi justice series. Have you ever read any of her books? I haven't been on familiar with her. So she's also written the bitches Ever After series published with that name, so maybe it won't be quite the same? Well,   Jennifer Lieberman  40:34 there's a big book out called the ethical slut, that? Well, you know, and they had no problems with censorship, either. But I think sometimes it can, it depends on who your publisher is and who you're connected to. But um, but anyway, I think the year of the web series serves me because as soon as someone opens the first page of the book, The subtitle is right there, right. Yeah,   Michael Hingson  41:00 so people should go look for year of the what? Yes. Well, I'm glad it has been really successful. And you have worn a lot of hats on, off off Broadway and Hollywood and so on. And now you're back in Canada, and so on. What do you like best of all those hats and all those jobs or opportunities.   Jennifer Lieberman  41:27 That's number one. That's always been my number one passion. That's why I started writing fan fiction when I was eight, is because I just wanted to be in these movies and shows that I watched, and I really enjoy writing, I actually really enjoy producing and helping bring projects to life, whether they're mine or somebody else's. But the there's something magical about performing and living and breathing in somebody else's skin and a different world that a writer created. And it's just incomparable. So   Michael Hingson  42:14 year of the well, we'll, we'll do the slot. What? Is it funny?   Jennifer Lieberman  42:21 It is yes. So what are the words that one was best rom com of 2021. So when I submitted it to book life through Publishers Weekly, one of the reviews was that it doesn't fit neatly into the romance genre. And it doesn't fit neatly into the erotica genre. And it doesn't fit into this genre and doesn't fit into that genre. They didn't even review the book, like didn't even give like a positive or negative review. All they did was list all the genres it didn't fit into. And, but it is quite humorous. Because it's about these dating misadventures, and coming of age and coming to terms with sexuality, being a young woman in New York City, and kind of having to reevaluate a lot of the stories or, you know, kind of expectations that were ingrained in the character. So it's not even about her being a slut. It's about her reevaluating what that word means to her, because she only planned to be with my one man. So anything more than that would put her in the slot category. But yeah, so it was her kind of, you know, reevaluating her perception of what is the slot? And, you know, how many partners is too many and all of that stuff? Because, also, in today's world, how realistic is it? For someone to be with just one partner for their whole life? I don't know. Especially like in Western society? I don't know.   Michael Hingson  44:14 Well, since you have been involved in writing something that's humorous and so on, have you at all been involved in comedy stand up comedy or any of those kinds of things?   Jennifer Lieberman  44:26 Yeah, I did do stand up comedy. I do it from time to time. I wouldn't call myself a stand up comedian. Because I don't love it enough to be hitting the clubs every single night trying to get on stage, which if you're trying to make a living as a stand up comedian, you have to be hitting the clubs every night. All of the legit stand up comedians, I know will hit 234 Different clubs at night to get up. And I'm not that committed to it. It's a nice muscle to flex, it's nice to know that I have the courage to get up and do it that I can make an audience laugh. But I'm no by no means a professional stand up. I got into it by accident, I responded to a casting notice looking for females who could be funny. And it was a promoter looking for more female comics to be on his shows. And he was willing to train and coach to coach women because he just felt like he wasn't getting enough women applying to be on his on his lineups. And he wasn't meeting enough women. This was this was a few years ago, this was like I think 2014 is when I started, it was just before Amy Schumer, like, had her breakout success and became a huge household name. Now, now when you go into the comedy scene, there are so many more women than then there was, you know, about eight years ago. So now, it's not the same climate. So his name? Matt Taylor, his name's Matt Taylor. So he kind of convinced me to give it a go and try five minutes. Because I was like, oh, no, like, That's too scary. I don't do that. But after doing two one woman shows where I was on stage by myself for over an hour, each one I was like, Okay, what's five minutes. And I did it. And when I was a hit, it was great. Nobody thought everybody thought I was quite seasoned. All the other comedians on the lineup thought that I had done it dozens of times before. And I, I did it pretty consistently for a couple of years. But once again, like I said, I just didn't love it enough. Like I'd rather I would run, I would run to a theater every night to do Shakespeare or Tennessee Williams, I wouldn't run to a theater every night to do stand up. So it's just not the type of creative that I am. But once again, nice to know that, that I can flex that muscle.   Michael Hingson  47:14 So how many books have you written so far? One novel,   Jennifer Lieberman  47:17 which we discussed, and then under Mike, my consulting business to make your own break business I've published to during the pandemic, I always intended to publish books, under the Make Your Own break umbrella, about low budget, film production, low, no budget is more accurate, no budget theatre production, how to develop a solo show. So all of those are still coming. But during the pandemic, I was asked to coach a few executives, to help them with their presentation skills and engaging their team. And I'm kind of like a nerd and I didn't feel qualified to coach these people. So I was like, Okay, I have to come up with a system before I feel confident enough to like go and actually, you know, do this and charge money. So I came up with these seven steps on how to master your virtual meeting. So that's one of the books make your own break, how to master your virtual meeting in seven simple steps. And then I also recorded my AUDIO BOOK during the initial lockdown, and I messed up a lot. And I had to I recorded the entire book and had to throw it in the garbage and start again from scratch. And then the same friend colleague who suggested I changed my title suggested that I write a how to book geared towards self published authors and indie authors on how they can record and publish their own audio books. So that's book number two how to record and publish your audio book in seven simple steps once again under the Make Your Own break umbrella. And yeah, so there are those two books and like I said, I I will be publishing more How To books under the Make Your Own break, but those will probably pertain more to film theater production and creative process.   Michael Hingson  49:23 And then the what? At pardon. And then more year of the what and then more   Jennifer Lieberman  49:28 year of the wet because that I've realized as a trilogy. You know, when women are young, if people want to attack us in our teens and 20s Regardless of what our personal lives are, people call us a sloth. Whether it's male or females, it's a woman it's a it's a word is weaponized against women. And then as we get older, more assertive, more confident, we're we're called a bitch. So I'm kind of going through the trajectory of words. are used as weapons against women, and how we can reframe them and own them, instead of being ashamed of them.   Michael Hingson  50:09 Then you can write the fourth book what bitch. But anyway, that's another story. Exactly. So did you publish an audiobook?   Jennifer Lieberman  50:18 I did, yes. This year of the what is available on Audible? Yes. So I did I, I was I finally recorded a successful version. And it was after that, that I decided that okay, yeah, maybe I can write the how to book on how to do this. And it's specifically encouraging self published authors. Because if you have enough conviction to write your story, you should be the one telling it.   Michael Hingson  50:47 It's interesting in the publishing world today, that and people will tell you, this agents and others will tell you this, that it isn't like it used to be, you have to do a lot of your own marketing, even if you get a publisher to take on your book and take that project. So the fact is doing an indie publishing project certainly uses a lot of the same rules, you still have to market it, you're gonna have to do it either way, you're still going to be doing a lot of the work, the publishing industry can help. But you still got to do a lot, if not most of the work.   Jennifer Lieberman  51:29 Yeah, and not just that, I don't know, if if you follow any celebrities, on on Twitter, or Instagram, but I believe nowadays, like I'm a, I'm a member of the Screen Actors Guild, that union in the US, and a lot of contracts now have social media obligations written into them, that you have to tweet that you have to post a certain amount to help promote the show. And a lot of decisions are based on how big of a following you have, there's actually, I'm not sure if you were a Game of Thrones fan, I was a big Game of Thrones fan. But one of the characters, it was between her and another actress and she had a bigger social media following. And that was the tipping point of how she got cast. So it you know, self promote, like that's what social media is, it's all self promotion. So it's not just the publishing world, it's the acting world, I think it's just become the norm of it doesn't matter what business you're in. It used to be that you needed a.com. In order to exist now you need a social media following in order to exist.   Michael Hingson  52:53 I know when we originally did fender Dogg, and Thomas Nelson put, picked it up and decided to publish it. Even then back in 2010, and 2011. One of the main questions was, how much will you be able to contribute to the marketing of the book? How much will you be able to help promote it? Now? We have a contract to do our next book, A Guide Dogs Guide to Being brave, unless the publisher decides once we're done to change the title. But still, it is all about how big of a following do you have? How much are you going to be able to contribute contribute to the book because you're probably not going to get some sort of big book tour or anything like that paid for by the publishing company, unless there's some compelling reason to do it. And it is all about what you can do. So publishing is changing, the landscape is changing. mainstream publishers are great, they do add a lot of value. But you do need to learn to sell and to market and be intelligent about it as an author, no matter how your book gets published.   Jennifer Lieberman  54:03 Yes. And, you know, it's a double edged sword, because it gives lots of opportunities to indie, indie authors, but it also, it's sad for me because it becomes a popularity contest. And it's not necessarily about how good your book is, or how good your work is. It's just if you, you know, have a buzz factor. And if you have a following or if you had, like some mishap in your life that went viral, then all of a sudden, you have this huge platform for all these opportunities, regardless of how talented or prepared you are for those opportunities. And you know, it like I said, it's a double edged sword. There are benefits to it. And there are, you know, there are detriments to it but also like I'm the type of artist. I'm gonna I'm willing to go outside of my integrity. So let the chips fall where they may.   Michael Hingson  55:05 Well, you have written both in the literary world, if you will. And in the theater world, which do you prefer? And why? Oh, that's a toughy. Because you're doing a lot with each one, aren't you?   Jennifer Lieberman  55:21 Yeah. And I'm still like, I'm, you know, and that's the thing, like I write plays, I write scripts for film, and I'm writing a TV pilot right now. And in the literary world, the benefit of writing in the literary world, is once the writing is finished, and when I mean writing, I mean, also the editing and the proofreading. Your job is done, like the project is complete. When you're writing theatrically, whether it's film or theatre, that's just step one, there's still a very, very, very long road ahead of you, you know, and trying to get into the right hands, trying to raise the money, trying to, you know, get the right team together, and the right actors, the right, you know, then you had, then there's the feat of filming it, and then the post production process, and then the distribution process. So there is something very satisfying when writing a book that's finished. But there's also something very exciting to me, you know, in the whole process of getting a project produced from you know, from step one to step 55.   Michael Hingson  56:45 So, as a writer in the theatrical world, you really can't just be a writer, and then you turn it over to someone, if you're going to make it successful, I gather, what you're saying is, you really have to be the driving force behind the whole project, not just the writing part.   Jennifer Lieberman  57:01 Well, at my level, because like I said, I don't have an agent, I don't, I'm trying to get things into other people's hands. So right now, I'm shopping around here of the what for theatrical opportunity, I went to the Cannes Film Festival to the market there, I've met with a certain number of people. And one of the questions was, how involved would you want to be in this project? And my answer is, however involved you would like, you know, because I'm not married to this project. Like I, I've been living with this for a decade, between writing it, workshopping it, and then the novel between the play and the novel, like, I'm ready to let this go. If somebody wants to write me a check. Go ahead, do what you will with it. You know, but then there are other pieces that are closer to my heart that I'm like, oh, no, like, this isn't for sale. We can partner on this and make this together. But this is, you know, staying under my under my wings, so to speak. But I have another I have a short piece, a short film, that a friend of mine is shooting in LA next month, and I'm not really gonna have any creative involvement in it.   Michael Hingson  58:26 Out of curiosity, when somebody asks you that question, is there sort of a general trend as to what do they want the answer to be? Or is it really something that varies? They they're not necessarily looking for you to be involved typically, or they'd like you to be involved typically, as a really an answer that makes more sense to most people than not,   Jennifer Lieberman  58:47 you know, it's interesting, because I've gotten both, I've gotten both opinions. You know, for, I guess the higher up people are on the food chain. They're very relieved to hear that I don't need to have any involvement in it at all, because they know how hard it is to get something made in the first place, let alone having all of these, you know, kind of stipulations. It's like, well, I can only get made, you know, she gets to approve the script and this and this and this and that, you know, so the less I think the less involvement I have, the easier it is for the producer because they have more freedom to negotiate. Right. But that's an instinct once again, I don't know, you know,   Michael Hingson  59:32 it probably does very well. How do you keep such a positive attitude and keep yourself to use the terminology of our podcast unstoppable as you get a lot of rejections as you face a lot of challenges. And as you said, you haven't had that huge break. But how do you keep yourself going?   Jennifer Lieberman  59:51 I love it. This is a love affair. This is a lifelong love affair for me. And I was on a podcast A few days ago, we had to write a creativity statement. And my creativity statement is that being a creative is like being in a one sided relationship, and you have to love it enough for both of you. Because the the industry isn't necessarily going to love you back. But if you love it enough, if you love the creative process enough, you're just gonna keep going.   Michael Hingson  1:00:22 I want you to extrapolate that to just anyone even outside the theatrical world. What would you tell somebody if they come up to you and say, How can I just keep myself going,   Jennifer Lieberman  1:00:35 find something that you love and do it as often as possible? It doesn't have to be your job, you don't have to make money at it. You just have to have something in your life that you really love and enjoy doing. You know, whether it's dancing, whether it's singing, you know, and that's the thing like, you don't have to be a superstar. I'm not a superstar. Maybe one day I will be universe. But I, I'm not going to stop what I do, because it just brings me so much joy. And I'm so happy and I do I get in a funk. I get in a funk when I'm not able to create. And, you know, for some people it might be hiking or kayaking or camping or connecting with nature. That's something that that I love to do. Also, that brings me joy. But yeah, I think a lot of us get so caught up. And also I would say close your screen. Go dark, go dark for a few days. Don't worry about what's going on on social media. Don't worry about the internet, like go outside and actually be in the real world connect with real people connect with nature. Be in your body. I find when I get in my head, too much I can spin out. But when you're in your body, you can you can feel your you can feel your essence. You   Michael Hingson  1:02:04 know, always good to step back.   Jennifer Lieberman  1:02:07 So that would be my advice.   Michael Hingson  1:02:10 It's always good to step back and look at yourself and just relax. And we don't do that often enough. We get too involved in that social media and everything else as you point out.   Jennifer Lieberman  1:02:22 Yeah, exactly. And it's proven like there are statistics, social media makes people depressed. People only put their Insta life best moments on social media. I'm sure someone will mention if they're going through a hard time or whatever. But that's not the majority of people. People will sift through their life find take a million photos of one of one scenario, find the best photo doctorate with with face tune filters and whatever and make their life look fabulous. And you know, everything's curated. I'm actually I wrote a poem about this. Would you mind I've never shared this publicly. Can I? Really?   Michael Hingson  1:03:09 Sure. Go ahead.   Jennifer Lieberman  1:03:11 Okay. It's called Black Sabbath. And basically, it's about going dark. Can we all just go dark for a day? Turn off the devices be still be silent and pray? No posts, no distractions? No waiting impatiently for strangers reactions. Can we all just go dark for a day? No selfie indulgence? No curated inspiration. No unsolicited motivation. Be present. Be awake. Meditate. Can we all just go dark for a day hold our loved ones dear if not in our arms in our consciousness spear. Make amends with our Maker, the true force of nature and submit to the power of our sublime creator. Can we all just go dark for a day, shut our screens, search our souls reclaim our minds that get hijacked every time we scroll. And finally take back our grip of the only thing we can control. That's it.   Michael Hingson  1:04:24 That's as powerful as it gets. And it is so true. Yeah. Yeah. It is absolutely so true. So what you've already alluded to it, what do you do when you're not writing and being creative? What do you like to do to relax? You said some of   Jennifer Lieberman  1:04:41 it. Yeah, I'm a yoga Holic. Like I said, I spent the first half of my life as a competitive gymnast. So I'm super active. I love physical activity. I don't work out in terms of like, I don't go to the gym and I don't do a certain amount of reps and I I'm on a treadmill for 20 minutes a day I do physical activities that I enjoy, so I enjoy yoga. I'm quite advanced at it with a gymnastics background so it's fun and acrobatic for me. I love hiking. I love connecting with nature whether it's stand up paddleboarding, kayaking, canoeing, waterskiing, I love all of that stuff. Not much of a snow skier though I don't really love the cold, even though I'm Canadian.   Michael Hingson  1:05:30 How lucky you were you live in? You don't like to call it okay.   Jennifer Lieberman  1:05:34 Yeah, I don't. But basically anything active and outdoors. There's a treetop trekking course not far from where my parents are. And like, that's next on the list. I'm really excited to do that. What is that? Basically, they have these like, kind of obstacle courses up in the trees. So you're on harnesses, and you know, whether it's like platforms that you walk across, or ropes courses that you have to, you know, I don't know, I haven't been but it sounds fun.   Michael Hingson  1:06:12 Well, you have to let us know what it's like after you, you get to go clearly not wheelchair accessible. So I'm sure my wife's not gonna want to do it. But nevertheless, you got to let us know how it goes once you do it.   Jennifer Lieberman  1:06:27 Yes, I will. I will. It's very exciting. Oh, and I love live music. So like rock shows. That's my jam. I'm a rocker chick.   Michael Hingson  1:06:36 There you go. Well, I want to thank you for being here. And spending the last hour and a little bit more with us. This has been fun. Clearly, you keep yourself going you do move forward, you're not going to let things stop you, you are going to be unstoppable, as I said, using the parlance of the name of the podcast, but I want to thank you for being here and inspiring all of us and telling us your story. If people want to reach out to you and contact you and learn more about you find your books or anything else. How will they do that?   Jennifer Lieberman  1:07:10 Okay, so year of the what.com is the website for the book, but it'll link you to almost everything. Or you can go to make your own break.com. Both of those have links to all of the books and all the social media. And they also have contact pages that will come to my inbox directly. So that's the best way. If you want to find out more about me, and on social media, whether it's Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. I am Jen Lieberman. So the at sign, and then I am Jen. J e n Lieberman L i E,B E R m a N.   Michael Hingson  1:08:00 Well, I hope people will reach out oh, I should ask you you written in your writing the How To books? Are you going to do anything like create any online courses or anything?   Jennifer Lieberman  1:08:10 You know, it's funny I was doing in person courses. I haven't gotten around to doing the online ones yet. But yes, that is also in the works. There's a laundry list. Bed. And like we talked about, I wear many hats. And I'm always more interested in the creative stuff. As opposed to the as opposed to the business side. So I you know, I always feel like, oh, there'll be time for the course there'll be time for that. And as it as it so happens, the more successful my creative career is, the more validity I have to teach these other courses. So it's all in good time.   Michael Hingson  1:08:49 Great. Well, again, thank you for being here with us people, please go visit your of the what.com or make your own break.com. And reach out to Jen, she would love to hear from you. And I would love to hear from you. I'd love to know what you thought about today, I would really appreciate you giving us a five star rating. Jennifer Lieberman needs a five star rating. So let's give her one you all. And I want to thank you all for for being here. Reach out to me, feel free to do so by emailing me at Michaelhi at accessibe.com Or go visit WWW dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. Or just go to Michael hingson.com and learn more about the things that I do. But either way, please help us give Jen rave reviews. And Jen one last time. Thank you very much for being here.   Jennifer Lieberman  1:09:48 Thank you so much, Michael. This was such a treat. I really appreciate you having me on.   Michael Hingson  1:09:53 Well, the fun and the honor was mine. So thank you you   1:09:59 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Ari Schonbrun was the Chief Administrative Officer of Cantor Fitzgerald, and is an author, speaker and 9/11 survivor. Ari was on the 78th floor of Tower One when the first plane hit on September 11, 2001. He helped a colleague suffering third-degree burns to safety and was thrown into the national spotlight thereafter. His miraculous first-hand account of survival has been retold in newspapers, magazines, broadcast outlets, and books. Mr. Schonbrun is a native New Yorker. He is passionate about philanthropy and serves as a board member of Strength to Strength, a global non-profit organization that works with victims of terror across the world. Ari and his wife, Joyce, live in Cedarhurst with their five children and several grandchildren. ____________________________________ This episode is brought to you by Touro University! To learn more about how you can excel at Touro University, Visit Touro.edu/more ____________________________________ This episode is brought to you by Bridge Credit Solutions! If you're looking for a reputable credit repair company that can clean your credit within 6-60 days or your money back, Bridge Credit Solutions is your choice.  Serious Inquiries Only https://api.whatsapp.com/send?phone=12126602991&text=Hi,%20Im%20interested%20in%20more%20information.%20Saw%20on%20MM%20 ____________________________________ Subscribe to Meaningful Minute on WhatsApp: https://wa.me/15166687800?text=Please%20subscribe%20me%20to%20Meaningful%20Min Ute ____________________________________ Subscribe to our Podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2WALuE2 Spotify: https://spoti.fi/39bNGnO Google Podcasts: https://bit.ly/MPPGooglePodcasts Or wherever Podcasts are available! Follow us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/meaningfulpeoplepodcast Like us on Facebook: https://bit.ly/MPPonFB Follow us on Twitter:https://twitter.com/MeaningfuPplPod Editor: Sruly Saftlas Podcast created by: Meaningful Minute For more info and upcoming news check out: https://MeaningfulPeoplePodcast.com #jew #jewish #podcast #frum #rabbi #frumpodcast #meaningfulpeople #torah #mitzvah #hashem #jewishmusic #jewishpodcast #israel #kumzitz #nachigordon #jewishpod

Every year I dedicate myself to keeping the flame of remembrance alive for those who lost their lives in the Islamofascist attacks on our nation on September 11th, 2001. For those of us who lived through that day, the images, the sounds, and for those who had boots on the ground – both civilian and first responder alike, the smells are forever etched into our memories for all eternity.I remember exactly where I was and what I was thinking as I saw the smoke billowing out of Tower Two of the World Trade Center on that day. It was a surreal moment, a moment of the unthinkable. As a former professional firefighter and paramedic, my immediate thoughts were centered on the tasks the first responders had before them in trying to both save lives and battle the fire.Then I watched live as the second plane hit Tower One and I knew we were under some kind of attack. Everyone did. It was obvious...RELATED LINK(S):https://www.undergroundusa.com/p/september-11th-21-years-onhttps://youtu.be/sw_8o7X0mOE?t=10Sign-up for our mostly daily mail out here:https://www.undergroundusa.comSupport Underground USA (BTC)https://commerce.coinbase.com/checkout/7b2d8c35-55b9-49ed-9918-f7cc6f2a488dSupport Underground USA (USD)https://checkout.square.site/merchant/SW8KGEWAS2A22/checkout/SXG24XFCOWMROX3D5IN42TB2Convention of Stateshttp://ConventionOfStates.com/?ref=69171

77WABC Early News Host Deborah Valentine spoke to former FDNY Commissioner Daniel Nigro ahead of the 21st commemoration of 9/11 to pay tribute to his colleague Chief Peter J. Ganci, who died when Tower One fell. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

 The critical key to surmounting obstacles, conquering challenges, and reaching your goals lies in your mind. You have to believe with your whole being that you can do it. Often what holds you back is fear. Today I talk with Michael Hingson, author of Thunderdog: The True Story of a Blind Man, His Guide Dog and the Triumph of Trust at Ground Zero, about diversity, inclusion and conquering the mindset of fear.Michael has an incredible story to tell. When he was 6 months old, his parents were told that he was permanently and totally blind. He was one of more than 10,000 premature babies in the US who developed retinopathy due to excess exposure to oxygen, irreversibly scarring and destroying the retina, so no visual information was transmitted from the eye to the brain.  But Michael's sighted parents believed in raising their son with a can-do attitude. Treated like all other children in his family, Michael rode a bike, did advanced math in his head and learned to read and write in Braille. Michael's family relocated to Palmdale, California when he was five years old. It is here that Michael had his first adventure with Guide Dogs for the Blind and received his first guide dog. He later earned  bachelor's and master's degrees in Physics along with a secondary teaching credential from the University of California at Irvine. On September 11, 2001, Michael and his guide dog, Roselle, escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the World Trade Center moments before it collapsed, only to be enveloped in a thick cloud of pulverized concrete dust. Soon after, Michael and Roselle were thrust into the international limelight where Michael began to share his unique survival story and 9-11 lessons of trust, courage, heroism, and teamwork. The story of their escape from Tower 1 was engrossing.  But most important  was how his parents raised him to acquire the survival skills and mindset that enabled him to survive the 78 story stairway descent of World Trade Center Tower 1 on Sept 11, 2001 and then to shake off the dust and move forward.Mike enjoys a successful 41-year sales career, first in high-tech and now inspiring adventures and joyful living for audiences around the world. He is a long time Social advocate for change concerning disabilities through his involvement with the National Federation of the Blind.  Contact Michael Hingson. Gift: Free ebook Blinded by Fear www.blindedbyfear.net  www.michaelhingson.com and https://accessibe.com/a/6eybb9o https://www.facebook.com/mhingson https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://www.facebook.com/Roselle911GuideDog/ LinkedIn. https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfCx2L9OVN38Dv4mX6udP8g Contact Dr. Gillian Lockitch to learn how you can live younger as you grow older: Order a copy of Growing Older Living Younger: The Science of Aging Gracefully and The Art of Retiring Comfortably  Schedule a free  Discovery Call with Dr. Lockitch Join the Growing Older Living Younger Community 

Michael Hingson, blind since birth and raised by sighted parents who taught him a can-do attitude, lives life fully every single day. He is working hard to change the attitude of sighted people around their beliefs about what blind people can and can't do.  Blind people are not “disabled”, they are ‘people with disabilities, as every single one of us is, if we stop to think about it. We all have abilities and disabilities.  Michael has his own podcast, “Unstoppable Mindset”, and is an international speaker and author. His book “Thunderdog” is the story of him and his guide dog, Roselle, escaping from the 76th floor of Tower 1 on 9/11. They had an interdependent relationship, based on trust, an ideal partnership, in other words, that got them out alive and has allowed Michael to share his story to millions around the world and now it's coming to you here on this podcast!  Enjoy and don't forget to check out his free gift too!  I thought this would be a wonderful ‘feel good' episode to share with you during my theme of “ideal partnerships”.   Gift: http://www.blindedbyfear.net (www.blindedbyfear.net). On this site people can download a free eBook I have written about fear. They will be able to use this book to begin their own journey to eliminate being blinded by fear when they are confronted by something unexpected that occurs in their lives. Your Guided Health Journey Membership – 1 month FREE Trial: https://yourguidedhealthjourney.com/membership-programs/ (https://yourguidedhealthjourney.com/membership-programs/) Health Kickstart Program: https://yourguidedhealthjourney.com/health-kick-start-detox/ (https://yourguidedhealthjourney.com/health-kick-start-detox/)  Complimentary 15-minute consult: https://YGHJappointments.as.me/free-consult (https://YGHJappointments.as.me/free-consult) Discover Your Toxic Load Quiz:  https://welcome.yourguidedhealthjourney.com/yourtoxicload (https://welcome.yourguidedhealthjourney.com/yourtoxicload)   About the Guest: Michael Hingson, blind since birth, was born to sighted parents who raised him with a can-do attitude., Michael rode a bike and learned to do advanced math in his head! He moved to California and attended college receiving a master's degree in Physics and a secondary teaching credential.  Michael worked for high-tech companies mostly in management roles until September 11, 2001, when he and his guide dog, Roselle, escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the WTC. They were then thrust into the international limelight where Michael began to share lessons of trust, courage, and teamwork. Mike is the author of the #1 NY Times Bestseller: “Thunder dog” – selling over 2.5 million copies. In 2014 he published his 2nd book “Running with Roselle”, A story for our youth. Mike has spoken to the world's elite including George Bush, and Larry King. He has appeared on hundreds of TV and Radio programs. Now he is hired by major organizations Speaking on perseverance, the importance of Teamwork and Trust, Moving from Diversity to Inclusion, and offering Adaptive Technology Training. In addition to speaking throughout the world, Mike serves as the chief vision officer for accessiBe, an Israeli-based company that makes products to help companies make their websites accessible and inclusive for persons with disabilities.   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ (https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/), https://www.facebook.com/mhingson (https://www.facebook.com/mhingson), https://www.facebook.com/Roselle911GuideDog/ (https://www.facebook.com/Roselle911GuideDog/) Twitter: https://twitter.com/mhingson (https://twitter.com/mhingson)  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson) Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfCx2L9OVN38Dv4mX6udP8g...

Ari Schonbrun is a 9/11 hero & survivor turned Author, Speaker, Podcast Host and Executive Performance Coach.  Mr. Schonbrun was on the 78th floor of Tower One at The World Trade Center when the first plane hit on September 11, 2001. He helped a colleague suffering third degree burns to safety and was thrown into the national spotlight thereafter. His miraculous first-hand account about survival has been retold in newspapers, magazines, broadcast outlets, and books. Mr. Schonbrun is a renowned inspirational speaker and the author of ‘Miracles & Fate on 78'. He draws from the personal heartbreak he endured during the devastation of 9/11, deftly weaving in his capital markets expertise after more than three decades of working on Wall Street. He speaks with energy, fluency and wisdom, utilizing his humorous and engaging personality to stir and inspire audiences worldwide.Mr. Schonbrun is a native New Yorker. He is passionate about philanthropy and serves as a board member of Strength to Strength, a global non-profit organization that works with victims of terror across the world. He is also the host of Whispers & Bricks Podcast and the creator of Whispers & Bricks Coaching Academy, focusing on middle management and executive life coaching. You can catch Ari on his podcast: https://whispersandbrickspodcast.com/Thanks For Listening! Follow us on: - Website: https://victim2victor.net/ - FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/victim2victor - TWITTER: https://twitter.com/V2V_healing - INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/victim_2_victor_podcast/- Victim 2 Victor Audio Book Audible: https://adbl.co/3akVNCu - Victim 2 Victor Book on Amazon: https://amzn.to/34MQQyu - Apple Podcast: https://apple.co/3wHvUof - Spotify: https://spoti.fi/36D6ZYE 

Episode Summary Myrna Daramy is called “The Oprah of Tech” by her clients. She has an incredible gift to break tech down into simple concepts that anyone can understand. Even more important, Myrna regularly demonstrates that she is a visionary who can assimilate and encompass new concepts. As a “marketing technologist” Myrna discovered early that she has a knack for not only relating to people but that she can help them solve difficult problems. Her interests are varied and far ranging. Two years ago, for example, she first encountered the concept of what we call the “accessibility gap” regarding the availability and usability of websites by persons with disabilities. What did she do? She made providing access a part of her business. She already has helped over fifty customers ensure that their websites are inclusive. Along the way, she discovered accessiBe and uses it to her great advantage in helping to promote inclusion for all. Myrna's story represents the unstoppable mindset as the best part of her life. I am sure you will be inspired by what she has to say. After listening, please let me know your thoughts via email at michaelhi@accessibe.com. About the Guest: Myrna Daramy is a Marketing Technologist and the founder of Myrna & Co, a technology coaching firm specializing in digital media marketing strategy, analytics, and ADA Compliance. Over the last 15 years, Myrna's obsession with optimization has led her to educating over 500,000 professionals and transforming countless small business brands' digital footprints. Myrna's clients often call her the “Oprah of Tech” for her unique ability to translate ‘tech talk' into simple and actionable concepts that make sense to even the most non-technical business owners. She takes pride in helping her clients peel back the layers of their brand, establish connections with prospective customers, utilize the latest and greatest technology tools, and return to them an optimized digital footprint that converts better than ever before. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Ad  00:01 On April the 16th at 2pm North American instant time, blind musicians from across the globe are getting together for an online benefit concert for Ukraine. It's called we're with you, and all money raised goes to the world of blind unions unity fund for Ukraine. To learn more, including how to listen and how to perform it were with you visit mushroom fm.com/withyou that mushroomfm.com/withyou UM Intro/Outro  00:30 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:49 Well, hello again, everyone. This is Mike Hingson welcoming you to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today we have a marketing technologist I'm really interested to learn what that is all about. She's formed a company called Myrna and CO and company which is pretty cool. Myrna Daramy, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Myrna Daramy  02:14 One, I'm so happy to be with you today, Michael. Michael Hingson  02:17 Well, we're honored to have you and we'll get to how we met as we as we proceed. But tell me a little bit about kind of your early life and all that what, what got you into the world and all that kind of stuff that you think people would want to know about? And even if they don't tell us anyway, Myrna Daramy  02:36 I love it. Okay, so what got me into the world, yes, of marketing technology, I will say I started not in that realm at all I started in the world of architecture, that's what I went to undergrad for. But architecture is one of those degrees that I literally cherished, because it is that one space where I now in retrospect, when I look at, you know, the career that I have, it told me and, and molded me in a way that allowed for me to create something out of nothing. Because throughout my whole class curriculum, we would always have these projects. And these projects would literally be like, you know, create, that was the whole goal. So there was no textbook, there was no reference, we just had to be very creative and concoct these designs that we made up and then would have to present it to a board. And they would critique it. And so in those exercises of doing that, it allowed for me to free myself enough to realize that I can create as much as I wanted. And you know, hopefully in critique of those things that I created, it would do some good. So you fast forward to today, I ended up getting an MBA in technology management. And in that, I realized that there were several holes in the market space for people who were able to not just speak tech, or be very tech savvy, but also be very equally as creative from the business and marketing side of things as well. And so I kind of infused myself into the mix, because I can think on both levels, and have been working with clients ever since bridging that gap between marketing and technology. Michael Hingson  04:39 So what kind of holes do you find? Where do you what do you find our biggest? I know weaknesses are. Myrna Daramy  04:46 So the biggest holes I will say the people who are very technical or that are deemed more tech savvy, the web developers, the programmers, they tend to be very detail oriented. down to the granular approach. And they also tend to not be able to think much out of the box, because I think in their world, they are very zeros and ones black and white. And so there's a level of I wouldn't say they don't explore, because they are very cool. They are creative in their own right in their own way. But when it comes to marketing, and speaking, layman's terms, and connecting those dots, so that you can actually bring more brand awareness and attract more audiences, they're lacking sometimes. So I realize that on the flip side, a lot of the people who deem themselves more creative and more on the marketing or the business side of things tend to shy away from or run away from anything that seems techie. Where it's, it becomes too much. And they will quickly say, you know, oh, no, you know, I don't know, tech, or, you know, I don't know how to code or I don't know how to how to understand this program. So it always seems to be that there's this like, you're on one side or the other. And so I've seen holes on both. And so I guess for me, I've just always been able to teeter totter on either side, and translate from there. So Michael Hingson  06:26 I know exactly what you're talking about, I find that a lot of people are focused, where they're focused. And we never like to go outside of our, our world or our sphere, or what we're comfortable with, if you will, the usual, people don't like to go outside their comfort zone. It does tend to make a real problem. For me, as a person who happens to be blind, and I've been blind on my life. I'm not sure what my comfort zone is, well, I do know I have a comfort zone, I'm being a little sarcastic. But I always have to go outside of it, it can be as simple as walking across the street, and suddenly hearing a car when I expected there to be no cars, because there were none that were coming in front of me. And suddenly, I have to deal with it to going to a strange place and all that. So I do tend to like to take a different approach than I think what a lot of people do. And I noticed that having grown up and spent most of my adult world in the sales and sales management world. It's just as relevant their salespeople, I'm not techie techie, or really don't like to do the technical stuff I just sell. But the reality is, if people would learn a little bit about the other side of the fence, they would be much better at doing what they normally do. Exactly, Myrna Daramy  07:56 yes. It's like whatever lens you're looking through, having the openness to be able to explore. And, you know, just ask the question of what if or just being able to, to your point, you know, not all the things you don't need to be a programmer. But to understand that some of the nuances definitely does help and give you a new perspective for sure. Michael Hingson  08:21 One of my favorite stories is my best sales guy who I ever hired, and I went to do a sales presentation. I kind of am technical enough that I can be an additional sales engineer to the ones that we normally had at the company. And he and I went to do this presentation. And they got fairly technical. My master's degree is in physics, which opened me up to being curious. And so I learned how to be somewhat technical. I'm not a programmer. I'm not normally a fix it guy, but I can analyze problems and sometimes help fix but we went to this presentation. And when we left. When we got outside, Kevin asked me how is it that you know, this stuff, all this technical stuff about the product? And I don't? And and what I said was Did you read the bulletin that came out last week that Kevin came out to all of us? And he said, No, I was really pretty busy. I said, Well, there you go. It was all there. Myrna Daramy  09:23 Exactly. Michael Hingson  09:25 And it's it's not that the information is not available, it's that we don't take advantage of it all too often. Because we don't consider it a priority to grow. Myrna Daramy  09:35 Exactly. Now that's so true. I see that a lot, especially in you know, I work with a lot of creative entrepreneurs and they did to your point, I want to stay in my lane and create and do all the fun aspects. So when it comes to things like search engine optimization, or website optimization, they're like, No, I don't want to do that. So, Michael Hingson  10:01 and I don't necessarily want to do it, but I know enough about how to do it, then I can interact with the people that I want to do it for me. And I know that those people can do the job better than I. But having the knowledge helps me interact with them, and make us all more efficient. Myrna Daramy  10:23 Exactly, yes. Because you don't know what you don't know. So if you can get yourself to have better understanding, you'll be able to not only communicate better, but to your point, you'll have a better outcome. So 100% agree. Michael Hingson  10:38 That's just another way of saying you should learn to know what you don't know. Myrna Daramy  10:43 Right? Is knowing that you don't know what you don't know is very important. It's a big that's a big step in the right direction. Michael Hingson  10:51 It can help well, so you, you started an arc you. So you, you actually started in architecture, and were you an architect for a while, or did you deviate before then? Myrna Daramy  11:03 So the funny story on that Michael is I tried, I mean, I interned with an architect for a year, I worked at an interior design firm, for about a year and a half, I think after that, but every time I was in those positions, where I would be considered architectural intern or architect, staff architect, I was promoted to become management. And so they always kind of said, Let's push you out. So you can be more with out facing with the with the clients. And so I realized at that point, I was like, well, maybe I'm not supposed to be doing this, maybe I am supposed to be doing something a little bit more front facing or outward. Because I am, I call myself an introverted extrovert. But I do love people. So I'm in that that's when I think the light bulb moment went off and said, you know, and I said to myself, maybe I should actually pursue, you know, something more along the lines of business, or, you know, management. And so that's where I ended up getting my MBA. Michael Hingson  12:07 Did you apply any of that and go back to doing architecture work? That is did you? Did you work with architectural companies? Or did you just go off in a completely different set of directions? Myrna Daramy  12:19 The funny thing, I did start off working with architectural companies, but I did it from a marketing standpoint, right? after the fact. And then from there, I branched off. But yeah, that's where I started. Michael Hingson  12:32 So I, I appreciate all of that. I've worked with the architectural world from the standpoint of being one of the first people or starting an organization that was one of the first to sell PC based CAD systems. Wow, that was a revolutionary thing back in the 80s, for architects to consider using a computer, instead of drawing boards to do their work. Myrna Daramy  12:59 Exactly. That's huge. Michael Hingson  13:02 We had a lot of fun with it, it was it was pretty interesting. And when the light bulb went off, and an architect could realize they could do in hours or a day or two, on a computer, what they would normally take days and days and lots of paper to do with the drawing board. They went, Oh, I like this. Myrna Daramy  13:21 It was a smart move. Yeah, it's funny, because when I was in school, Kevin was out, of course, but they wanted us to learn the traditional way. So we did spend a lot of time hand rendering things, which was, you know, and I appreciate it now. But at the time, it was, why can't we just use CAD? Michael Hingson  13:44 Do people do hand rendering and do a lot of stuff during their educational phases, as opposed to CAD? Or is CAD pretty much now use right from the outset? Transition Point Myrna Daramy  13:57 is definitely more of a standard. But I think in in my day, early, you know, 2000s, I think it was still they wanted to make sure we owned the the craft, yeah, and, and used it as a tool, not necessarily as the actual application all the time. But now it's totally everything's all CAD. Michael Hingson  14:20 Being a physics oriented person, it still seems to me that it's important for young children to learn to do math, with pencil and paper as opposed to using a calculator because the calculator doesn't give you the ability to learn the process. I'm not convinced that that's true with CAD because I think with CAD, you still have to create the process. And you have to know what to tell the CAD system to do to make the process work. Whereas with a calculator, you don't learn about units you don't learn about other things. Myrna Daramy  14:54 Exactly. I agree with you on that Michael like yeah, you still have to learn you still have to understand what it is 3d rendering or like a 3d image looks like. And to your point you use the the application to create that. But yeah, it's your Yeah, I 100% agree. Because when it comes to other tools out there like calculator, or even down to like an iPad or something that allows for multiple ways of doing things, as opposed to hand writing something, I do believe that there's definitely a detriment that happens when there's that. I don't know what you want to call it, it's almost like you fast forward, you went from like A to F as opposed to going through all the steps. Michael Hingson  15:38 And getting CAD doesn't take away the steps. CAD just takes away the the pen and paper but it doesn't take away the steps. Exactly. I remember being in college, working at a campus radio station, you want to talk about steps. If you wanted to create a program or edit audio, you sat down with a slicer or a razor blade, you recorded it, you cut tape, and you spliced it together. And if you were neat enough, you could get this places to go through and you could hear a completely smooth recreation without whatever it is that you didn't want, or you added in the things that you don't want. Today I use a tool called Reaper, which is an audio editor. Yeah, I got to tell you, it's a whole lot easier than cutting tape. Myrna Daramy  16:32 I was about to say this splicing the word splice in itself, like people don't realize what that means when they say it in today's day and age of splicing things together. But to hear you say it tell that story about splicing would literally That's intense. So yes, it can be appreciated to say right now that Michael Hingson  16:54 you're sitting there with reels of tape, you have a little roll of what's called splicing tape, which you you have around and you have a razor blade or some sort of way to cut and literally put the pieces of the recorded tape together and use splicing tape to connect them and glue them if you will, together. And if you do a good job you can you can make it work. I was not the greatest splicer in the world. Myrna Daramy  17:20 That's a school. Yeah. Michael Hingson  17:26 But life is fun. But you know, we we grow, but that's okay. But I understood the process. And now audio editing, I understand the process and find that the audio editor doesn't change the demands of what my creative skill needs to be, but it, it helps with the technique, but I still have to know what to do, which is good. Exactly. I love that too. It's a lot, a lot of fun. So you went off and you started marketing? And you have you have obviously been pretty successful with that. And you're a coach, and you're a coach, and you train and manage teams and so on. Tell me about that, if you would. So Myrna Daramy  18:03 yeah, so fast forward to what I'm doing today, I often consider myself and I said this a little bit in the beginning translator, I have become a technology translator for a lot of businesses where I assist business owners and their teams, and understanding how to leverage the use of technology in their business. So whether it be that they're focused on marketing, there's, you know, how to how to how do they utilize, whether it's the web, whether it's, you know, any type of technology device to help them in marketing their businesses or their brands to internally if they wanted to help streamline their practices or their processes. I assist with that with that as well. So it's been fun. Um, you know, I joke on this, but I mean, I have worked from penile implant surgeons to Funeral Home directors, I have assisted in business, because I have I see in business, there's a lot of parallels. And everybody who's trying to market themselves, you usually need some assistance when it comes to utilizing tech. So it's been a very amazing and fulfilling career. So it's been great. Michael Hingson  19:24 What are some of the challenging situations that you found yourself in where you've, you've been tested pretty well trying to break through and get people to market? Right. Myrna Daramy  19:37 Well, you know, some of it always good to have Michael Hingson  19:39 stories. Myrna Daramy  19:40 It's always good to have stories. I mean, a lot of it is people's fear of tech, which is, you know, interesting too. We talked about this a little bit of people wanting to stay in their own lanes. And I mean, I I've seen it where I've literally had to almost act as a therapist at times in coaching and advising my clients and their business owners To make better decisions on what type of technology they're using, whether it's, you know, if their websites are not as effective, you know, obviously, we jump on that to make sure that that's as optimized as it could be, which is, I think, how we actually probably connected. But you know, it can run its course. I mean, I've had scenarios where the teams were at odds, because one person felt that something should happen one way versus the other. And I would basically come in as mediator to help them again, to streamline and bring people to the next level. You know, husband and wife team is the one I'm thinking specifically where she wanted to advance and utilize like a new customer relational database, scenario, CRM, but the husband wanted to use the antiquated system. And so they were at odds, and I came in and acted as mediator, and help them so that they could be more streamlined and work more efficiently. So, yeah, there has been amazing story. I mean, there's there's stories for days on this. But one thing's for sure, I think something that technology seems to do to people is make people not as Sure. And so I think my as my job and my role in a lot of these clients and with my clients, is to help them feel reassured that they're making the right decision, or they're making the best decision for their business. So it's been fun. Michael Hingson  21:34 Yeah, it's always a challenge. One, we're used to doing things one way and I, I know, my wife and I have discussions about technology, and she's extremely resistive to learning technology skills, she just doesn't like to do that at all. She'll even tell you that math lies, because she can use a calculator and perform the same calculation three times and get times and get three different answers. So she says math lies. But, but you know, at the same time, she, she has learned to use stuff, she's learned to use QuickBooks and quicken and other things like that, that she never used to do. She wanted to be a librarian, and also thought she would be a good architect. Karen happens to use a wheelchair, and has been the lead designer, at least conceptually, on building two, three houses, and modifying other houses to make them accessible. And we learned along the way, it's, it's clearly better to build a house from scratch, if you need to make it accessible than buy a house and modify it just because of all the extra costs of, of having to tear things down and so on. Whereas if you modify it, or if you build it into the design doesn't cost anything. Myrna Daramy  22:59 Exactly, exactly. And foundationally, that's just so much better in the long run. And I think that's probably why I love accessibility so much as a whole anyway, because I'm like, it's not just, you know, allowing for making things easier and making things you know, making things more able for people. But it's also freeing and giving more opportunity as well. So, love Michael Hingson  23:32 it. What got you looking at or becoming exposed to the concept of accessibility and inclusion? And in the other part of that, well, let's do that. First, I have another part. Go ahead. Myrna Daramy  23:47 Okay, there we go. So what got me what got me started, I have always been and I think I mentioned this, you know, in terms of optimization, I have actually always had a love affair with optimization, especially, I mean, down to and I say this, you know, in, it's kind of funny, like, the way that I even fold my clothes, or, you know, when I'm looking at just anything, my I'm always like, how can we make this even more optimized or even better than, you know, what it is today. So when it comes to business, and specifically when it comes to the web, I have always loved, you know, helping businesses in optimizing their web presence. And a lot of my expertise comes from search engine optimization, and again, user experience, in terms of how someone would utilize a website or get to, you know, that next stage of conversion, and so, accessibility just kind of fell in place. And it was like the next step for me, I guess, in terms of becoming more optimized. And I think, you know, if I could be, you know, really Frank 2020 Was that year that Think exposed a lot of areas where we could improve. And I, you know, I say this to all my clients, I'm like, You know what, you know, we can say whatever we want to say about the challenge of 2020. But when it came to technology, I mean, it brought us three things in, it gave us the ability to connect, it gave us the ability to communicate. And it also allowed for us to either create some kind of community or establish some kind of community somehow, someway. And in that way, there was this responsibility I felt for the web to be something and apply, you know, it's in terms of a platform that can be as accessible and inclusive as possible. And so it kind of got me on this quest of, you know, how do we do that? And of course, you know, there were some other influences, like, you know, the the Black Lives Matter, movement, and just thinking through diversity as a whole, and what does it mean to really, truly be diverse or inclusive. And so I felt that accessibility was just that next progression in, especially when it comes to the web, actually, in making something inclusive, that means that it should be open and accessible for all. And so that's what started me on this class. And I've been passionate about it ever since? Michael Hingson  26:24 How did you learn about the lack of accessibility saying, in the internet or on the web, Myrna Daramy  26:30 I started the diving, I mean, I will say I did have a clients who about and I want to say it was like maybe 2019 received a letter from someone claiming that their website was not accessible. And they, you know, wanted to know whether or not they're going to make changes. And that kind of opened the doors to me for ABA compliance and what that actually meant, because prior to that point, I knew enough about it to know that from a federal level, if you were a federal agency, or something that was more public, facing, quote, unquote, that you definitely had to abide by some rules and regulations. But I knew that those rules and regulations were very gray. And so I started to do a deep dive into what those guidelines were, and what it meant to be compliance. And of course, with that also escalated with 2020, the usage of the web and how dependent we all became on the web. So it all was this, like, perfect storm, where it just, you know, allowed for me to deep dive and really, really get a firm understanding of the fact that 97 to 98% of the websites out there in the world are not even accessible. So that's kind of where that whole process and journey began for me. Michael Hingson  27:56 So you, you start obviously, in the way you do you started to, to learn more about it, and wanted to try to do what you could to, to help the process. How do you distinguish I'm going to change and then come back to it, but how do you distinguish between? Or do you diversity and inclusion. Myrna Daramy  28:22 So in my minds, I see diversity as being the ability to have this array, and very, you know, variety of ways, and things to get to the same result. Right? You know, and and equaling and leveling off the playing field. So regardless of who you are, what you do, what abilities you have, I feel like that's creating a diverse environment, right. And then when you think inclusivity or inclusion, that means that you're making it an intentional point, to ensure that the playing field has been leveled, and that you're making it so that there is this consideration and intention behind making sure that everyone is being accommodated or that there is this leveling of the playing field, so that everyone can experience or do the same. Michael Hingson  29:31 I love to talk about Hollywood, which lately has been a place where they talk about, we have to be more diverse, and we have to bring diversity into to what we do, but yet they don't ever or very rarely have included disabilities. Right? And for me, a few years ago, I started to draw a line and say the problem with diversity City is a diversity doesn't include disabilities, they have Warpath, the word. And diversity doesn't include disabilities anymore. Which is why I developed a speech that I love to give from time to time called moving from diversity to inclusion because you either are inclusive or you're not I don't, I don't even allow or love to try to help people not allow someone or or their own company to say, well, we're partially inclusive. Oh, you are inclusive, or you're not? Myrna Daramy  30:29 Yeah, it's it's yes, it's a yes or no. And I agree with you full, full wholeheartedly on that. Because, for me, yeah, I mean, I happen to be a woman of color. So I'm very sensitive to the diversity label as well. And to your point, I say, like, you know, if you're not inclusive, meaning that you're not considering all different things, all different variables, you're truly not diverse, and you're truly not inclusive at all. So I do agree with you that I feel like the the term diversities seem to kind of get almost, I want to say put in this box of thinking through, you know, race or, you know, culture as opposed to thinking of all the things including disabilities in that for sure. Michael Hingson  31:24 It's ironic, of course, that between 20 and 25% of people have a disability. And we are the group that is most left out. Why do you think that is? Myrna Daramy  31:36 I think that's the most bizarre and rare thing ever. I feel like because so many of the disabilities, I think, are not visible, quote, unquote. And I think people have this stigma about them, that it gets lost in the shuffle. But to your point, it's, it's more normalized than we realize. And I think the the conversation needs to be had in normalizing it all, because it does not make anything, you know, I don't know, in my mind, I'm like, I value human beings, and I value all human beings. And I feel, you know, very sensitive to know that everyone has strengths and weaknesses. And in that, that is being human. So valuing that, and honoring that is important. And I think that's a large part of it, too. I feel like a lot of people feel like they want to level and say, Well, this is worse, this is better. Now, it's not really it's everyone is a combination of things. And I think that we need to just really, really just focus on the beauty of that, you know, of that imperfection, quote, unquote, as you want to call it. And really relish in it. But I think it's a rarity thing for me, I don't understand it. And I never probably will understand it. But I don't know why. Truth be told? Well, Michael Hingson  33:15 I think there's a an issue. Also, when you talk, you mentioned Black Lives Matter earlier. And there's there's a lot of validity there, in terms of dealing with that and you don't hear Asian lives matter as much, although I think that black lives matter, really sends the message that all lives matter. But it's mainly addressing it from the standpoint of how you look. Right? And it doesn't deal with discipline, persons with disabilities lives matter. And the other problem that we have in the world of persons with disabilities is one label, in a sense doesn't fit all the needs of a person using a wheelchair are technically different than the needs of a person who happens to be blind as opposed to a person who happens to be deaf or hard of hearing. attitudinally and emotionally and intellectually, the need is the same to be included. But what we need is different. And that tends to create a problem as well that we haven't really learned to deal with as a society. Myrna Daramy  34:30 Correct? Yeah. To your point. And I think yeah, the individual aspect of it is what makes it challenging for people. But that's where I say the conversations need to be had and you know, it may need to be looked at more in a different light. Totally as opposed to trying to create a generalization. Michael Hingson  34:54 What do you think about the idea that it also has to do with people are just afraid of People who are living well living with who happens to have some sort of a disability, that we're taught to be afraid of them? Myrna Daramy  35:08 Mm hmm. Yeah, no, I, I think that too, I think people, you know, sometimes when things are not what like, we like them, I'm fearing the unknown is is, is real. But I also know in that, you know, conference, you know, conversations and talking about it and being exposed to it. And embracing it does allow for that fear to dissipate. I mean, I'll be honest, like, well, I spent, when I started this whole journey of just learning more about accessibility, I spent hours every week in clubhouse, I actually because there were several diverse groups, because I wanted to, actually, I wanted to immerse myself in understanding as much as I could. So every week, I would go on with different chats and listen to several different disability groups. I mean, I know it was, it was the best experience just learning from everyone, and meeting such amazing people. And it just blew my mind. So that was really the catapult for me to, to really, you know, I guess take heart in doing this and really trying to educate people on being more inclusive as a whole. But yeah, I think that's that's the thing. It's like fear, definitely, of the unknown, or things that are not like you hate, you know, even though I found myself with more things in common with many of the people in those chat rooms, then some people that I've known, who wouldn't be deemed as having a disability. So I don't know. Michael Hingson  36:52 It's It's better now, of course, but for a while clubhouse was extremely inaccessible for people to be blind. Yeah, it was horrible. Myrna Daramy  37:01 Yes. Yeah, I was in one chat one day, and we did an experiment to see wonder how one of the transcribing applications could be applied in there and what it did. And it blew my mind. I was just like that. Yeah, to your point. They have come a long way. And they were listening, because I was a part of one of the club shots that was helping them to become more accessible. And so they took a lot of feedback from them, which was great, and made, and they've made some strides. But yeah, in the beginning, it was rough, for sure. Michael Hingson  37:35 They have made actually really tremendous strides, and it's a lot more usable. Now. The iOS app is usable. Yes, yeah, of course, they're now now actually making it available on the PC and other things like that. But the iOS app has become more accessible. And they're bringing it up in the Android world as well. So they're becoming a here we go more diverse, more diverse. They are making in and they are making him more inclusive, which is which is great. And it's it's important to do that as well, for the very reasons that we've been talking about. Well, how did you run across accessiBe, I have to ask. Myrna Daramy  38:15 So I came across accessiBe to me, because I was searching for something I was searching for a solution, because you know, I was going through learning about all the WJC guidelines and ADA compliance. And I also, and I mentioned this earlier, I work with a lot of creative entrepreneurs, and a lot of creative business owners, a lot of them are in the fashion realm and in the bridal space. And so they they very much had a definitive feeling about their aesthetics online. And so I was like, what could be out here, aside from stripping their website, and you know, trying to make it user friendly and accommodating and inclusive for various elements and various abilities in order to manipulate the website. I was like, What can we do and I just stumbled upon and searching accessiBe, and it was like a light bulb moment. And I was like, Oh, my goodness, this is amazing. This some this is something that can meet people where they are, this is something that even if someone is not deemed, quote, unquote, disabled, which even the word disabled to me I have sometimes issues with, but I'm someone who may need assistance, who you know, can use it and manipulate as they see fourth, which I thought was brilliant without damaging or hindering the aesthetic of the website. So that's how I stumbled on it. And of course, in that, I contacted them and I was like, This is amazing, you know, I'd love to, you know, become more of a part of this. And so that's how I became a partner and have been You know, advocating for making websites more accessible as a whole. So Michael Hingson  40:07 how have your clients received the idea of accessibility and how they received accessiBe and so on. Myrna Daramy  40:15 My clients have loved it, they felt that it was a total win win, they felt that, again, 2020. And, you know, we talked about this, I think it was also a time where people had to reflect on what they value, what they felt was important to them. And if they weren't going to say that inclusivity or diversity was important to them, this was something they needed to make sure they incorporated as well. So it became a mission, and also an opportunity for them to open up their awareness and some of their branding and some of their marketing to a demographic that they may not have even served to before. So it was a win win. And so they see it as something very positive. And making a difference in the world, which, which I love. Michael Hingson  41:13 As, as humans do, I'm sure you've seen various degrees of acceptance or excitement or interest in, in dealing with accessiBe to be Have you had some really big challenges in that regard. And people who resist it, or are you just really good, and you can show everybody the value of it upfront, which is always better? Myrna Daramy  41:35 Well, you know, it's funny, I haven't had too much resistance. Truth be told, I, I mean, when I have had resistance, my argument was always, you know, you're doing something that's at least in the right direction, as opposed to nothing at all. And so it always tended to win them over. But now, to your point, yes, there's always going to be the people who are for something or against something. And I mean, the one good thing I will say is, you know, talking about it, I mean, you know, I, I made sure I talked to several of my friends and confidants who are disabled. And I asked them, I said, Look, how does this work for you? Like, I want to know, like, if I'm going to advocate for something that, you know, because I want it to hopefully, make something more inclusive, like, does this work for you or not. And throughout all of my experiences, everyone has been supportive, they love it, they there was no negative. So I, you know, chalk that up to know that it is doing more good. And I love the fact that it's doing more good. So that's why I can rally behind it. And to your point, like I said, majority of my clients, they are I win them over. So Michael Hingson  42:52 we are philosophically, whether it's accessiBe to be or people who really think about it, who happened to have disabilities, as we think about it, we love to point out that accessiBe to be well, let me rephrase that, that accessibility and inclusion ought to be part of the cost of doing business. Just like having the ability to provide lights for you light dependent people who can't get around in the dark at all and handicapped people. And it is, it is really part of the cost of doing business that ought to be taken into account right from the outset. And that's a marketing challenge sometimes that I've seen with some companies, they say, but we've got other things that are higher priorities, and how could you is really the question. Myrna Daramy  43:46 Exactly, no, I know, I say this all the time. Like I had a saying for myself that I did in a presentation, where I was like, Yeah, diversity, because a lot of people seem to love that buzzword. And they felt like that was important enough that they would invest their time and energy towards that. I was like, diversity equals innovation, for sure. I mean, when you have a diverse internal staff, and you're promoting to a diverse demographic, it, you know, creates an innovative experience, but accessibility to me, is equal to opportunity point blank, because, you know, again, and I say this, you know, depending on me the whole goal of meeting someone where they are, should be what every business wants to do. And I think accessibility allows for that. So to your point, yes, absolutely. I feel like it is literally the cost of business and needs to be a priority for sure. Michael Hingson  44:44 It's just much the cost of business, as I said, as having lights a coffee machine, computers and monitors on a desk and so on, because it's just the way it Myrna Daramy  44:54 is. Exactly. Michael Hingson  44:57 So how many how many cups Have you been able to, to get to start to really make their products and their websites and so on accessible? Myrna Daramy  45:07 So we I started what, a year ago. And so today, I probably have about 50 of them. So yeah, Michael Hingson  45:16 you can you kind of alluded to this, but you say that the pandemic has a silver lining. And I think we sort of talked about it. But can you kind of explain that a little bit more? Myrna Daramy  45:29 Yeah, I mean, through all the challenges, I feel like we faced with this pandemic, the silver lining, I feel like is that, you know, we were able to leverage the power of the web. And the web allowed for us, like I said, during the beginning, is it allowed for us to one, stay connected, for sure, because I feel like we relied on it more heavily. Because we could not connect physically, it allowed for us to communicate, and share information much more. And we utilized it in a way where, you know, zoom and virtual meetings became the new norm. And then it'll allow for us to if we didn't have any type of community, that whole concept of we're all in this together was a whole different level when it came to communicating and connecting on the web. Because people were establishing communities and building communities in order to do all three. So that's why I feel the silver lining of the pandemic is evident, because thing going to fast forward to today. And I think it made us stronger. And again, it allowed for us to even see the vulnerability and then areas where we need to improve in that. So you know, that's why I'm loving the fact that more people are speaking about accessibility, more people are really trying to define what diversity and inclusion means to them, as well. Michael Hingson  47:07 I, I guess I'm different than that a lot of people and maybe a lot of blind people are the same way. But I hear people constantly talking about the fact of being tired of the pandemic, we're pandemic, over overdose, over overload and so on, to get back to being with people, and that the pandemic has just caused us all to become very insensitive and very tired of having to do something in a different way. What do you think about that concept? Myrna Daramy  47:45 It's funny, I don't feel that I kind of feel like it made us better. You know, again, anytime you have the opportunity to go internally, you know, and reflect for a second because we all had to go inward, whether it was stay home or you know, not be around people and really think through things and be willing to adapt and or quote unquote, that magical word pivot. I feel that that's, that's a strength, like, that's building resilience. So, you know, to that point, you know, not to discount the need to connect and you know, for physical engagements and all that, because I know how important that is. And I know that that still is, is something that we all want to do. I personally feel that this is now just created us to become more versatile and flexible and resilient. Michael Hingson  48:46 For me, probably my best example of talking about that is 20 and a half years ago, working as the Mid Atlantic region Sales Manager on the 78th floor of Tower One of the World Trade Center, and escaping with a guide dog with my guide dog, Roselle and, and others and working with people to get out. But after the attacks, I started hearing people say we got to get back to normal. And it took me a while to understand in my own mind why I was reacting to that. And the reason was because normal will never be the same again. No, it won't. Yeah. And I and I hear that today we've got to get back to normal, normal will never be the same again. Myrna Daramy  49:33 You can't undo and undo what you've done. And we've done. Michael Hingson  49:38 Right, whatever, whatever it is. And for me, personally, I have tended not to be too bothered by COVID. Yes, it'd be nice to be out. Yeah, it'd be nice to go out to dinner. But as I love to say Instacart and Grubhub are our friends. And we do pretty well. Today is Christmas Valentine's Day and it's also My wife's birthday, but we're not going to go out. She's there's a little bit of immune compromising situation that she deals with. So we'll just eat here, we're going to order something in there. But in general, I have found COVID to be a great advantage of being able to deal with people and interact with them. Because of the fact that Zoom, which was very smart about it has become or was and continues to be extremely accessible. So they make it possible to really be involved in doing the same things that I would do if I went somewhere. But I also used to selling on the phone anyway. So it's it really not a whole lot different. But we're so many of us are, again, only comfortable with doing things one way and as you pointed out, we need to be learning to be more versatile. Exactly. Myrna Daramy  50:55 Yeah. I mean, I It's funny, you say that because yeah, I mean, I've been using Zoom since before the pandemic, it was probably 2017 When I first encountered it and started using it. And I thought it was the best thing ever since I didn't have to travel as much for my clients, which was great. But um, you know, when it comes to accessibility, I'll say this, like I received something from PayPal the other day, because I was I was getting a new credit card, the old credit card was expiring. So they were like, Oh, we're gonna send you a new credit card. And when they sent me the credit card, they had a postcard in there. And on that postcard it said to you to activate your pay your credit card, here are three ways you can do it, you can call, you can, you know, take a photo of this QR code, or you can visit the website. And that to me, was a beautiful, accessible paper or postcard because it allowed for me multiple ways to do the same thing. And I got to choose which way it was that was best for me. And I was like, Oh my gosh, this is genius. Like, I wish other people could just appreciate the value in being more accessible and allowing for people to have options, because it would then make it so much better and much more effective. So I don't know, to your point. Yeah, I feel like it is being more versatile, being more flexible, is such a good thing. And yeah, there is no normal anymore. Like it's now every day is a new normal pretty much. So of Michael Hingson  52:34 course, the obnoxious blind guy did the postcard happened to also come in Braille. Myrna Daramy  52:39 It didn't however, it did have a did have something on there for hearing impaired. And also they did have a little disclaimer for blind as well. But it did not have Braille on it, though, which I was. And that's something I feel like another level where people need to realize like there's, you know, adding this would make it so much more accessible. Michael Hingson  53:03 One of the interesting things about technology is carrying over into the whole world of persons with disabilities, that we don't take advantage as a society of some of the things that say blind people really do cause to happen and make available. So for example, in the mid 2005 2006 Arena in the first decade of the century, Apple wasn't making their products accessible, right and a lawsuit was created I was part of that actually, that would cause well there that would be filed against Apple because they weren't making the iPod available. The new iPhone available. They weren't making iTunes you available. They weren't doing well, because of another lawsuit that someone else had to settle that cost them several million dollars because they wouldn't make their products accessible. Apple said, Oh, we're going to fix this. And they did. What surprises me about all of that is that well, Apple built voiceover, for example, into all of their products so that if you buy any Apple product like an iPhone or an iPod or an iPad, or a Mac, you can activate voiceover because it's built into the operating system. What they have not done is started to look at how to take advantage of that for the non blindness or market for persons without a disability to enhance what they do. So when you are in a car and get an iPhone phone call, you still have to look at the screen to hear who it is. Unless you do some specific things to cause it to verbalize. You don't Have as much of an easy way to use the iPhone to dial series. Okay. But the but the point is they don't take advantage of that technology. Yet we've made it possible because Apple decided to create this technology for persons with disabilities, we've made it possible to expand that far and wider, further and wider, hence helping to open up the conversation. Right? Myrna Daramy  55:27 No, absolutely. No, that's huge. And I agree with you. I feel like again, I'm like, if once people get the memo, I think that accessibility equals opportunity. I think there's going to be a shift in the intention behind the drive of it all. But we need to get there because that's basically the situation for sure. Michael Hingson  55:53 We do need to get the fear out of it. Yes, I understand that people who have eyesight, don't want to lose it. But you shouldn't be afraid that if you do, and more and more people are for whatever reason. It's not the end of the world. And we don't teach that to people. We don't teach people to get over that fear. Myrna Daramy  56:13 Right? And realizing that you're still going to have a wonderful life and experience amazing things. So yeah, Michael Hingson  56:23 agree. Or at least you can. Myrna Daramy  56:26 Or at least you can exactly, exactly option. Michael Hingson  56:30 Well, I think we've been doing this a while. But I'd like to give you a chance to maybe talk a little bit more about your coaching programs. And if you would like people to be able to reach out to you to learn more of what you do or maybe engage you how do they do that? Myrna Daramy  56:45 So yeah, if anyone has any questions about how I can assist them in again, leveraging the use of technology in order to become more effective and make better decisions in their businesses, you can simply go to Myrna and co.com or you can email me at hello at Myrna nyrr na P as in Peter D as in David calm, and I will definitely reach out and connect Michael Hingson  57:14 for sure. And the website again is Myrna and co.com. Correct. miRNAs MYR Na, Myrna Daramy  57:23 my RNA and a nd co.com.com. Michael Hingson  57:28 Well, Myrna Thank you very much for taking so much time and being here today. This has been fun. And I would love to I'd love to continue this. And if you think of other things that we ought to talk about, please let me know. And I will also because I'd love to have you back on and continue the discussions and tell some more stories. And I'm sure there are lots of things that we can talk about. Myrna Daramy  57:54 Oh, I would love that this has been so much fun. I've enjoyed our time together for sure. Michael Hingson  57:59 Well, and you keep making sites accessible and helping people get their sites and their minds inclusive and accessible. And you certainly have our well wishes and thoughts and support in any way that we can help to make that happen. Myrna Daramy  58:15 Oh, I love that. Now same here if you ever need me, Michael, you know, I am here as well. Michael Hingson  58:20 Well, I appreciate that well people reach out to Myrna and learn more about her. And again, as many of you know, if you'd like to reach out you can contact me Michael Hingson at M I C H A E L H  I at accessibe A C C S S I B E .com that goes directly to me. I'd love to hear from you your thoughts, your ideas, your suggestions and input. You can also visit www.michaelhingson.com That's M I C H A E L H I N G S O N.com/podcast. To learn more about unstoppable mindset. And you can also go to anywhere podcasts are available and see all of our episodes and listen to our episodes. We'd love to get your thoughts. And please, when you go and you listen, give us a five star rating. We would love to have your support. We were honored at the beginning of February to be mentioned and named as podcast magazine's editor's pick for February. So I guess we're doing something right. And we would like your continued support so that we can continue to educate and inspire and be a place where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. So thank you very much for listening, and we'll see you next time. We're gonna thanks again. Myrna Daramy  59:40 Oh, you're so welcome. That was fun. UM Intro/Outro  59:46 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Ari Schonbrun is an author, speaker and 9/11 survivor.  He was the Chief Administrative Officer of Cantor Fitzgerald and Co., one of the world's leading financial services firms.   Mr. Schonbrun was on the 78th floor of Tower One when the first plane hit on September 11, 2001. He helped a colleague suffering third degree burns to safety and was thrown into the national spotlight thereafter. His miraculous first-hand account about survival has been retold in newspapers, magazines, broadcast outlets, and books.   Mr. Schonbrun is a renowned inspirational speaker and the author of Miracles & Fate on 78. He draws from the personal heartbreak he endured during the devastation of 9/11 and has inspired audiences worldwide.  He is also the host of Whispers & Bricks Podcast and the creator of Whispers & Bricks Academy, a 7 week program focusing on “your personal breakthrough”.   Mr. Schonbrun is a native New Yorker. He is passionate about philanthropy and serves as a board member of Strength to Strength, a global non-profit organization that works with victims of terror across the world. Mr. Schonbrun and his wife, Joyce, live in New York. They have five children and several grandchildren.  

Conrad Hall is an author of a number of successful business and marketing books. He also authors a “Getting Happy” book series. But he was not always so centered on success and moving forward in life. On our episode today you will have the opportunity to hear his story and see how he turned many life challenges into a tool for moving forward. His experiences and his personal challenges have created a person who is successful and wants to help others be successful and unstoppable as well. Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast About my Guest: Conrad Hall is the bestselling author of six books on marketing (including two international bestsellers), host of Social Media: Cheap and Easy, and the founder of the Getting Happy book series. Conrad's marketing titles include The Business Owner's Guide to Social Media, Writing e-Books for Fun and Profit, and The Ultimate Marketing Sin. Inspired by Jack Canfield's Chicken Soup for the Soul series, Conrad has launched the Getting Happy series. Think Chicken Soup for the 21st century. Each book tells a motivational, inspiring story of encountering a life event, being unhappy about it, and finding your way back to Getting Happy. And with each book in the series goes a workbook for those who need a helping hand with making practical progress. Conrad is also responsible for coaching thousands of local business owners, just like you, to increasing their revenue, their customer count, and their free time. Using Relationships as the foundation for marketing, Conrad has helped business owners implement loyalty programs to foster customer loyalty and retention. He has used local and inter-state joint ventures to make businesses more resilient and diversified. And he built referral programs that required owners to hire new staff, and even open new locations. He has learned from experts like Dan Kennedy, Mark Hall, and John Forde that all marketing comes down to relationships. It is the rapport you build with a person, not a prospect, that opens the door to doing business together. conrad@ceriohs.org Share your Personal Story at: https://GettingHappySeries.com/shareyourstory About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes UM Intro/Outro 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson 01:21 Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And today we get to meet Conrad Hall. Conrad is an author full time now. He retired from doing other work, which I'm sure we'll get a chance to hear about. He's has been and is a veteran, and I think has some interesting stories to tell. And clearly has been very flexible and wise as he moves from one thing to another to know what to do and when to do it. So Conrad, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Conrad Hall 01:52 Thank you, Michael. I'm happy to be here. Michael Hingson 01:54 Can you tell me a little bit about your early years to start us off? Conrad Hall 01:59 Um, yeah, cuz that will bring us back around to the book series. Guess the easiest way to phrase it or explain it is? I grew up being the third child in a family with only two kids. And I had parents who never let me forget it. Michael Hingson 02:22 How did that work? Conrad Hall 02:24 Well, it was, it was adventuresome. I grew up very much disconnected, grew up very much angry. And, you know, when you talk about unstoppable mindset, by the time I was 28, I had 32 suicide attempts, several of which came very close to succeeding. And in spite of that, something that was always with me was this mindset of, if I really do succeed, then they win. You know, the people telling me that I'm worthless, I'm not lovable, that, you know, or any other negative thing, they end up winning, because I've just bailed. And it took me a long time to get past the whole suicidal mindset. It's like any other pattern of thought, you know, if you, if you grew up learning how to succeed and how to encounter challenges and overcome them, well, that becomes your pattern of thought. If you grew up being told that you're worthless and unlovable, then that becomes your pattern of thought, especially if you buy into it. Exactly. And, you know, as a kid, you're getting that fed to you, it's pretty hard to deal with. And then as a teenager, you know, I just, I found my refuge in anger. And, you know, when I'm working with folks today, and especially when I'm working with kids, you know, I'm honest with them, and if that's the only refuge you can find, then take it and hold on to it. Get through, just understand, there's going to be a big price to pay when the time comes that you want to let go of that anger. And understand that it's always a stopgap. You know, belonging is something that we all require. Genetically, biologically, it's built into us. Babies who don't have belonging who aren't being held and cuddled on a regular basis, wither and suffer poor health and throw your life if you're in that situation where you are not getting hugs, you're not getting physical Attention, then it does have a negative effect on both your physical and mental health. And the great thing is, the older you get. And hopefully the sooner you realize that your life is a result of your choices. And so whatever your past was, at any point in time, you can say, You know what, I'm done with that past, I no longer need it. I don't want to be associated with it. And I want to go out a new direction in life. I want to choose to build a strong positive self image. I want to choose to find good healthy relationships. And I'm going to take responsibility for me, and for my life. And the way you go, Michael Hingson 05:52 you just said something really interesting. And I want to follow up on on it with a question, you talked about making choices, something that I have felt for a long time. And I believe that doing a lot of self analysis, I can trace how I got to where I am, by the choices I've made. I've gathered that you are saying you can do sort of the same thing that you can go back and look at the choices that you made and the results that happened from them, and how that led to other choices and so on that got you to where you are. Conrad Hall 06:25 Absolutely. Now even a really big life event that resulted in the writing of this book, and the launching of the book series is I got divorced in 2012. And it absolutely turned my life upside down. And when I, I worked on writing the book, I got the manuscript finished. I showed it to a friend of mine, who was also an author and a copywriter. And he does a lot of editing. And I asked him what he thought, and he was not non committal. He didn't want to say, and I'm like, dude, okay, I'm not gonna break now. Tell me what's going on. And he said, Well, you do a lot of blaming in this manuscript. And we ended up doing two rounds of edits, focused solely on scrubbing out that blaming language. Other because we always get this thing? Well, I only did that because she did this, or I only did that because he did this. And it's this almost natural thing that rather than say, You know what, I did it. And it was the wrong thing to do. And I'm taking responsibility for it. Which I can tell you from personal experience, that's really hard to say, you know, I goofed, I got it wrong. And now I need to go make it right. It's far easier to say, Well, I only did it because he upset me or she took my apple or, you know, finding some reason to blame somebody else. That's easy to do. But it gets you know, where it lands, you being a victim, instead of being empowered and moving forward and building your life. Michael Hingson 08:24 Why is that? So easy to do? Conrad Hall 08:29 Why does dirt roll downhill? Yeah, because we we will live up to or down to expectations. And if we can get away with saying it's someone else's fault. We do. And it I am convinced that we get into that pattern. Because it's what we learn as we're growing up. You know, our parents let us get away with saying, Well, I did it because you know, my sister did this or my brother did that rather than holding us accountable. And then when we get into adult life it's really easy when you're at work to say well, I didn't get all the welding done because the parts didn't show up. Which is true. And if you couldn't do it because that stuff didn't show up. It's really easy to carry that over into areas where you absolutely do have control. And like I mentioned a little while ago it's you know if I love you is a powerful statement. Please forgive me and I'm sorry, while being equally powerful statements are so often much more difficult to say. You know, you can tell your wife You love her might be like pulling teeth. Okay, I love you. But to ever admit you were wrong to apologize. It's almost as though if you do that you are somehow weaker. When the truth is, you know the person that can admit to being wrong, and say, Okay, let's find a solution. That's a very strong person, that is someone who's very confident in themselves, and who is willing to admit to being wrong, and then look for the solution. Michael Hingson 10:45 Many years ago, I participated in an accountability group, I was actually part of a Christian program run by the Methodist church called Walk to Emmaus. And we had a pretty close knit group, where we lived in Vista, California, and we met every week. But it was interesting to see those who lived up to the concept of accountability. And those who didn't really want to be held accountable for what they did, or what they committed to. And it is something that we face a lot. One of my favorite books is The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. And he talks a lot in the whole concept of team building, about accountability, and using that to help grow and develop trust. Right. And it's, it is so often that we just don't want to be held accountable. And I think though, and as you imply it, I think it is a, it is a learned skill, to learn not to be accountable, but it could just as easily go the other way. And nowadays, there's so much craziness going on and everything that we see in the world, that most people just don't want to be held accountable. They're not held accountable, and they they ridicule those who choose to really live up to the whole concept of accountability. Conrad Hall 12:19 Yes, yeah, it's, I'm wrong. I want to be free to be wrong. If there are consequences, I want you to clean them up. And I want you to pat me on the back for being wrong. And tell me that I'm a good little boy for being wrong. You know, one of the things that I use because with getting happy series, every book in the series comes with a workbook. So if you want to make practical progress you need you need a helping hand. There's a workbook so you can work your way back toward getting happy, through whatever life event it is that you're experiencing. And one of the things that I use is I talk about PAP and poop. And pap is personal empowerment practices. Poop is personally offensive, obstructive practices. And the approach I take is to say, you know, Pap, or poop, which would you like more of in your life? People invariably put their hand up and say, oh, I want more pap. Mm hmm. And then when you talk to them about what they're actually doing on a day to day basis, they're filling their lives with poop. They're lying and saying it's a good thing to do. They criticize people, instead of caring about them. They complain, they threaten, they nag. They, they just do things that are easier. You know, which is easier to make sure that your child eats good food, or just give in and let them have ice cream and you know, fast food and whatever it is that they want. It's absolutely a question of which are you going to learn which are you going to put into practice. And I use the analogy regularly about a garden. And so, you know, if you're going to empower your garden to grow, you need to turn the earth you need to plant your stuff in nice straight rows, you need to weed the weeds. Take those out, you need to water your garden. But you also need a little bit of fertilizer. So you need a little bit of poop to make that garden a really healthy productive garden. And that's where we fall down. You need a little bit of poop. You don't need truckloads of poop. You don't need to fill your life with it. Michael Hingson 15:01 So, essentially good poop. Yeah. So what's, what's an example of good poop? Conrad Hall 15:10 Well, and it's one that requires, you know, you and me to listen, and it comes up with kids all the time. So pap is to encourage your kids to do well, you know, to have them do the things that they're supposed to do. Nagging is when you just, you're just constantly after them. And the simple example is, you know, you're encouraging your children to take responsibility. So one of their chores is to take the garbage out. You're encouraged them to do it. You encourage them again to do it. And then at some point, your child lashes back and says, Would you just quit nagging me about the garbage? Well, there's the learning opportunity. You know, sweetheart, I love you. I'm trying to encourage you to do what you're supposed to do. But you haven't done it. So yes, I am nagging you. And the nagging will stop when you take out the garbage Michael Hingson 16:13 you got. And hopefully, hopefully, they learn, you know, you said it's easy to do the bad stuff, and so on. So the question that comes to mind is, is it really harder to do the good stuff? Or is it only harder, because that's the environment in which we live? In other words, if somebody truly grows up, recognizing and internalizing being accountable, then is it really hard for them to do things that address the issue of incorporating and bringing in more pep? Conrad Hall 16:56 You are exactly right. You absolutely haven't grown up in a violent, very negative family environment. It has throughout my life been easy to do, you know, to be criticizing people to be complaining about people to be even threatening and lying. And I have seen other kids. And I've seen a dynamic in their home. And I remember it from growing up, where their parents were consistently encouraging. And I remember it, because I remember thinking I'd really like to live here instead of living where I do live. So I remember those examples. And in the same way that I, in my teens, and in my 20s would just veer toward negative behaviors. Those friends of mine who have parents that are consistently encouraging them, and holding them accountable, and who are who are consistent about the rules to so what is a No, today is always enough. And what is a yesterday is always a yes. They just it never would occur to them to do the kinds of things I would do. And I can remember, throughout my teens, having friends who were upset and put off when I would start engaging in those negative behaviors. Michael Hingson 18:43 So what did you do? Or maybe you didn't do anything at the time? Conrad Hall 18:49 Well, I would say most of what I did was retreat further into the negative behaviors. Almost as a way of saying, You know what, I can do this. And I don't need you to tell me I'm wrong. You know, I have people at home telling me I'm wrong all the time. And it it was a big part of my life where I got into a situation where I would push people away before they would have an opportunity to reject me. Because I grew up in an environment where I was consistently told that I was unlovable that I wasn't wanted around. And I allowed that to take root. And in my adult years I can remember seeing people would meet me and they would say positive stuff. And very often I would correct them and say yeah, you You just don't know me very well. Because I had done so many negative things because I so readily engaged in negative behavior. And because for a lot of my life, I was filled with rage, not just anger, but rage. And having grown up in such a crap environment, to be honest. And I had it in mind that if people really knew who I was, they just naturally would not like me. But now I'm now 55. I actually had time of recording, my birthday was yesterday. So I'm now 35 years of age. Thank you. And now when I look back, I think, you know, the natural me, the kid. Everybody loved me, because I was happy. You know, it just enjoyed having fun. I just naturally think well of people. I'm pretty easy to get along with person. It wasn't until I got into my teens and my early head all years that I was just a flat out jerk. And I was joining the military. I encourage anybody to do it, who that's what they want to do. For me, it was a bad choice. Because it just was a place that allowed me to be angry. And, you know, kind of rewarded the results that would get. Michael Hingson 21:52 Youmentioned that by the time you were 28, there had been a significant number of suicides and so on, did something happen when you were 28. Conrad Hall 22:01 Actually, several weeks before I turned 28, I was involved in a car crash. I was in the military. I was going home to say goodbye to my parents. And I hadn't spoken to them in five or six years. But I was going home to say goodbye because my unit was going to the former Republic of Yugoslavia. And I had no intention of coming back. Now that would be a very easy place to get involved in a fight and end up dead. So in the process of going home, I goofed on the roadway, and crashing my car at 84 kilometers an hour. And for several minutes was vital signs absent. So it's now you know, almost 30 years later I can look back and say it's kind of laughable. It isn't anywhere near laughable. But it is odd that I had tried so many times to kill myself. And then the thing that convinced me that I wanted to live was ending up dead in a car crash. Michael Hingson 23:28 Why did it change? Why did your attitude change? Conrad Hall 23:35 Well, as strange as it may sound in that car crash I had a direct and personal experience with God, the Creator, the being that made all of this and I'll tell you what, you know what? Meeting him is terrifying. It's not fun. But maybe we're Yeah. Yeah made clear. I always believed, you know, God was out there. But then when you come face to face with what I feel is evidence of his existence really changes your mind about throwing away this gift he has given you. Michael Hingson 24:40 I wrote a book called Thunder dog the story of a blind man his guide dog in the triumph of trust, which was number one New York Times bestseller and is still published. And in that book, I tell specifically about my experience, hearing the voice of God because it did happen on September 11. We were very close to tower two when it began to collapse. And I was with someone who ran off. And I turned and started running away from the tower which needed to do just to survive, right. But I remember thinking to myself, God, I can't believe that you got us out of the building, we come out of Tower One, I can't believe he got us out of a building just to have fall on us. And I heard a voice it said, don't worry about what you can't control focus on running with Roselle, who is my guide dog. And the rest will take care of itself. And I knew it was the voice of God, I had always believed in God. And I believe that I've had many conversations with God, but never with a voice that was that clear and definitive. So I understand exactly what you're saying. In my case, the voice wasn't angry. It was just it was very clearly saying just keep going and do what you're supposed to do. And it will be fine. And don't worry about what you can't control. So I think it is. I'm not surprised, or in any way put off by your comment. I think that it is something that all of us should do more of is listening, hear that voice or hear what there is to tell us we would be so much better off if we did. Conrad Hall 26:23 Yes, I agree. I woke up in the car and could not breathe. Turns out my left lung had collapsed. And somebody from in front of the car or for what felt like in front of me said don't worry. It'll be okay. And then I passed out. And then at some point died. And I never really had the impression of anybody being angry with me. I kind of it's more of an impression of I'm sorry, it took this much to get through to you. Michael Hingson 27:11 But that was your choice. Conrad Hall 27:14 Exactly. Yeah, even the car accident was my choice. I was driving home on a road that is locally known as snake road. And it follows the Niagara Escarpment, and it goes up and down the escarpment as well as back and forth along the escarpment. And I know better you don't drive a road like that, at 80 kilometers an hour. Somewhere in the realm of 5055 miles an hour. And the place that I got into the accident, I didn't realize where I was. And then I did because I saw a sign for hairpin turn. That is signed for 10 miles an hour, 20 kilometers an hour. And the last time I looked at the speedometer, I was doing 84 And I just I pulled my feet back off the pedals. I crossed my arms over my chest and bowed my head and said if I have to die, you know, I get it. Just please don't let me go to hell. And I got an answer. Michael Hingson 28:34 And you came out of it. And what did you do? Conrad Hall 28:40 Well, in true human fashion, I tried to turn my back on it and say oh, it was nothing, you know, and go back to life in the military. God clearly had different ideas because in a few months, I was medically discharged. They're saying you can no longer do the job. And I had to look around for something. And by the time I got out of the military I was my mindset was okay. I will start to listen. Clearly you have something to say? Clearly you have something you want me to do. And I will start to listen. And it was about that time that I also started making a shift away from being angry all the time away from pushing people away. And I started experimenting with letting folks into my life and you know, exploring new relationships. And I certainly had my ups and my downs, just like anybody. But I'm now a much happier and more fun to be around guy. Michael Hingson 30:17 There you go. What kind of work did you get into after the military? Conrad Hall 30:24 I came out and went into construction. Okay. My father was a carpenter. So I grew up with it. Probably by the time I was seven, six years of age, something like that. During summer break, I would be on construction sites, pulling nails. So you just hammer them back and then pull the nail and because my father was saving lumber to build a new house. And I figured, okay, that's something I know how to do. I was still at a state where I wanted his approval. And I thought, Okay, I'll do what he did. He will have to approve of that. Which didn't work. But I enjoy carpentry, I enjoy woodworking. I really enjoy building things. And so building houses, putting additions on houses, I worked my way up to being a field engineer. I have no degree, never attended university. But worked my way up to being a field engineer. And then in 2007, that summer, I realized I was spending a lot of time at the edge of the building, looking down wondering if it would hurt when I hit the ground. And I just picked up one day and said that's it. I'm done. I quit. And spent a few months looking around going, what do I do? What should I do? And a couple of folks suggested writing. And I discovered that the average annual income of a Canadian author is $12,500. And that was so attractive. That's what I decided to do. Michael Hingson 32:38 Why did they suggest writing? Conrad Hall 32:42 I've been writing since I was a kid. Okay, I'm good with words. I actually know how to spell that's a good thing, if you're going to be an author helps. It does. And I have been published several times throughout my life, essays, you know, articles and magazines, that kind of thing. An Anthology of poetry that was published. So what I actually went into was copywriting. I got got involved with some folks, American writers and artists in Delray Beach, Florida. I went down and I listened to the, you know, I listen to them describe copywriting. And I'm sitting in this room with, like, 600 people. And I'm getting progressively more upset. And a couple of folks do what's wrong. This is crazy. This is the kind of stuff I would do on weekends for friends, just to blow off steam and relax. They would ask me to do a an ad for them or to write a letter that they could send for a referral program or whatever. And I would just do this stuff because it was more fun than the carpentry. And I've been doing it for like 20 years for free. Michael Hingson 34:12 You you missed out, I missed out. What kind of books are you writing now? Conrad Hall 34:20 Well, the first six, were all about marketing, all about how to sell your stuff. I've had my own business since I was 19. And so there's always even while I was in the military, I would go out and do little renovations on people's houses and stuff. And then when I came out of the military and I got into high rise construction, I ran a construction business on the side with several crews working in different places. So I've always been able to get people to buy into a solution. I don't quite agree with selling stuff. I think a salesperson a good salesperson is actually just helping you solve a need, you know, whether it's you need a new car, or you need a new washing machine or, you know, you're in the store and you need new clothes. A good salesperson just helps you, you know, solve the problem you're trying to solve? Absolutely. And it just worked out. The first book that I wrote, was a commission by Bob Bly. And he asked me to write a book of all things. The first book I wrote, was a book about how to write books. And it turns out, you know, about 70 to 80% of that manuscript is actually how to sell your book. Because writing it is the easy part, selling it, getting people to see that you have presented them with a solution and getting them to buy into it. That's, that's the hard part that requires some effort. So the first six are all about marketing. And then number seven. And for the foreseeable future, these books are about personal development and self help, you know, about encountering a life event, realizing that you're less than happy about it, and working your way back to getting happy. Michael Hingson 36:42 In addition to doing the books, do you have any kind of a coaching program or a course? Are you thinking about doing anything like that, so that you not only write about it, but you you guide people directly? Conrad Hall 36:55 I do I do coaching. And it's, I'll be honest, I don't say yes to everybody. One of the first qualifiers is, you know, do you believe you are responsible for where you are? And if somebody answer's no, I, you know, I am where I am. Because of this, that the other thing I recognize in myself, I, I do not yet have the strength to deal with that. So I need somebody to at least be at the stage where they're willing to say, you know, I don't know if I get it 100%. But I, I understand where you're coming from, that I'm responsible for the choices I make. And then we can move on with coaching from there. I am looking at several things that I want to build as, sort of do it yourself courses. There, you know, 10 things for self image strengthening three keys to successful achievement. Things that I've learned along the way from people like Dr. Maxwell Maltz, who did, he published Psycho Cybernetics back in 1960. John Maxwell and everything that he has put together. Oh, actually, I should mention Jack Canfield, not only because he has been a terrific mentor, but because he has written the foreword to this first book in the series. So I explained to him that the series is actually inspired by his chicken soup series. And, you know, I'm inclined to call it chicken soup for the 21st century, which I think Jack is just okay with, I'm not sure he likes the idea, but he's okay with it. And it was after I explained that to him, and I said, you know, would you write the foreword for this first book, and he did. So that was terrific. I'm very proud of that. Michael Hingson 39:17 Well, our time is running short, darn it. So we need to do more of this in the future. And I definitely want to chat with you more and get more insights. But for now, how do people get a hold of you? How can people reach out to you? Conrad Hall 39:33 Well, there are a couple of ways if you just if you're, if you're interested in something like coaching or counseling, you can send me an email. And it's a nice easy email address. It's my name conrad@ceriohs.org conrad@ceriohs.org. But maybe more importantly, you If you have a story of encountering a life event, getting unhappy and working your way back to being happy, I would love to hear it. And there's a webpage. If you go to GettingHappySeries.com/shareyourstory, all one word, all lowercase. That takes you to a form where you can start sharing your story. And I would love to hear what it is, I'd love to read it. And when we get to that point where we're doing that life event is one of the titles in the series. I'd be happy to come back and ask if we can use your story. Yeah, immortalize it. Michael Hingson 40:51 Super, and it gives people a way to, to talk and express things. And as we all know, one of the most successful ways we have of moving forward is talking about what we are and who we are, and helping to use that to direct us as to where we want to go. Conrad Hall 41:13 Absolutely. Michael Hingson 41:15 Well, Conrad, thank you incredibly much for being on unstoppable mindset. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. And as I said, I want to continue this discussion and hope that we'll be okay with you. Conrad Hall 41:30 Yes, sir. I'd love to. And I really, truly appreciate the opportunity to be here. Michael Hingson 41:36 Well, you've been wonderful and and I've been extremely fascinated by listening to you. And I think there are a lot of ways that we, we, I won't say always had similar experiences, but we have come to the same decisions and conclusions, which is the important part, I think and how we live our lives on what we do. Yes, sir. Absolutely. Well, everyone who's listening, thank you again, for joining unstoppable mindset. We hope that you enjoyed it, I would invite you to go to Michael hinkson.com/podcast and subscribe. And also, wherever you're hearing this podcast, please go give us a five star review. I appreciate it. I and I would hope that you will reach out to Conrad and learn more about his story. And if you have stories to tell, as an author myself, I am a speaker. I believe that it's all about us telling stories. And I think everyone has a story to tell. So reach out to Conrad and tell him yours. So Conrad again, thanks very much for being here. Thank you, Michael. UM Intro/Outro 42:41 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. 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