Podcasts about thunder dog

Regular listeners to Unstoppable Mindset have heard me talk about a program called Podapalooza. This event takes place four times a year and is attended by podcasters, people who want to be podcasters and people who want to be interviewed by podcasters. Featured podcasters such as I get to talk with a number of people who sign up to be interviewed by us specifically.   This past Podapalooza saw me get to meet our guest this time, Susan Janzen. Susan wasn't even on of my original matches at Podapalooza, but she and I met and she told me she wanted both to be on Unstoppable Mindset and for me to come on her podcast, “Living & Loving Each Day”. Well, part one has happened. Susan has come on Unstoppable Mindset, and what a remarkable and unstoppable person she is.   Throughout her life she has been a professional singer and recording artist, a special education teacher, a realtor, now a life coach and she, along with her husband Henry, Susan has authored two books.   Make no mistake, Susan has performed all these life experiences well. She has been a singer for more than 30 years and still rehearses with a big band. She was a substitute special education teacher for six years and then decided to switch from teaching to selling real estate to help bring accessible housing to Alberta Canada.   Susan, as you will discover, is quite an inspiration by any standard. I look forward to receiving your comments and observations after you hear this episode. I am sure you will agree that Susan is quite Unstoppable and she will help you see that you too are more unstoppable than you think.       About the Guest:   Susan is an inspiring professional whose achievements span multiple fields. As a professional singer and recording artist, she enchanted audiences across North America. Her legacy as Edmonton's first Klondike Kate includes captivating performances from Las Vegas to the Alberta Pavilion during Expo 1987. Her versatility shines through her educational pursuits, earning a Bachelor of Education and influencing lives as a Special Education teacher. Alongside her husband, Dr. Henry Janzen, Susan co-authored two Amazon Best Sellers, further cementing her creative impact. Empowering Lives Through Coaching and Music Today, Susan combines her passions: Performs with the Trocadero Orchestra, a 17-piece Big Band. Empowers others as a Certified Happy for No Reason Trainer and Jay Shetty Life Coach. Hosts her podcast, Living & Loving Each Day Bridging Barriers sharing powerful stories of overcoming challenges.   Ways to connect Susan:   https://www.facebook.com/home.php https://www.youtube.com/@SusanJanzen www.linkedin.com/in/susan-janzen-b-ed-5940988 https://www.instagram.com/livingnlovingbridgingbarriers/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone. I am your host, Mike hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset podcast, unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and that's always so much fun. So we do some, we do sometimes talk about inclusion, and we do talk about diversity, and we talk about inclusion first, because diversity usually leaves out disabilities, but in this case, we we like inclusion because we won't let anyone leave out disabilities if they're going to talk about being inclusive. So there you go. But anyway, even more important than that is the unexpected, which is anything that doesn't have anything to do with diversity or inclusion, our guest today kind of has a little bit to do with all of that stuff. Susan Janzen is our guest. I'm assuming I'm pronouncing that right, perfectly, right? Yes, perfect. And Susan is up in Edmonton, Canada, and I met Susan a couple of weeks ago because both of us participated in the patapalooza program. Patapalooza, for those of you who may be listening to this on a regular basis, patapalooza is a program that happens four times a year where people come on who want to be podcasters, who are podcasters, or who want to be interviewed by podcasters. And we all kind of get together and we talk, and we listen to some lectures, and a bunch of us go off into breakout rooms and we get to chat with people. And when I was being scheduled, Susan was not one of the people who, in fact, got scheduled with me, but she came into the room and she said, I want to talk to you. And so there we are. And so Susan, welcome to unstoppable mindset where we can talk.   Susan Janzen ** 03:12 Well, so glad and so glad to be in a room with you here on my screen. This is great. Oh, it's fun.   Michael Hingson ** 03:18 My door is closed so my cat won't come in and bug me, because every so often she comes in and and what she wants is me to go pet her while she eats, but I'm not going to let her do that while the podcast is going on. So there you go. But anyway, it's good to be here, and I'm glad that you're here with us, and I understand that it's kind of nice and crisp and chilly where you are right now. No surprise, we are much more weak,   Susan Janzen ** 03:45 yeah, much warmer. There we had in Alberta. We're always in Edmonton, Alberta. We're called the sunny province because it's doesn't matter how cold it gets. We always have blue cumulus clouds and beautiful blue sky   Michael Hingson ** 04:00 and so. And today you have and today it's my cold.   Susan Janzen ** 04:04 It's, well, it's minus 10 with a skiff of snow. But you know what? Minus 10 here is? Actually, that's kind of my prerequisite for skiing, like, if it's minus 10 or warmer, I'm good, because I'm not a very good added skier. That's why   Michael Hingson ** 04:20 my brother in law used to ski on a regular basis. He in fact, used to take trips and take tours and and allow people to hire him as their tour guide to go over to France to do off peace school in the else. And he is also a cabinet maker and general contractor, and Gary's philosophy always is everything stops in the winter when there is an opportunity to ski. So   Susan Janzen ** 04:50 that would be a beautiful wouldn't that be there? Like the perfect job to probably be a golf pro in the summer in a ski tour? Third guide in the winter. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:01 he he was a, he was a contractor in the summer. Now he's doing more contracting all year round. He still skis, but he's not a certified mountain ski guide in France anymore. I think, I assume that kind of runs out after a while, but he hasn't really taken people on trips there for a while. But anyway, we're really glad you're here. I would love to start by maybe you telling us a little bit about the early Susan, growing up and all that well,   05:27 with the early Susan, that sounds great. Sure,   Susan Janzen ** 05:28 let's do   05:30 it that was a long,   Michael Hingson ** 05:32 long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. But let's do it anyway, exactly,   Susan Janzen ** 05:36 exactly. So way back in the day I was, I was actually my history is, is from I had a mother who was a singer, and she and I, I'm also professional singer, but she, she was my influence when I was younger, but when I was born, it was out those terminology at that time was called out of wedlock. Oh my gosh, you know, so bad. And so she was a single mom, and raised me as a very determined and and stubborn girl, and we had our traumas, like we went through a lot of things together, but we survived, and we're and we're, you know, all the things that I went through, I was on in foster care for a little while, and I kind of did a whole bunch of different things as a kid, and went on my own When I was 15. So I left home when I was 15, so I figured I'd be on my own. I figured I was mature enough to just go on my own, right like that made was made total sense and perfect sense to me at the time, and now I realize how young 15 is, but but finished high school and went to on the road and was a singer for like, over 25 years. That's better that. And, yeah. And so that's what I that was kind of like the childhood part of me. And that's, I think, what's putting me into all these play. I was in a convent for a while with   Michael Hingson ** 06:54 honey, and so you, you went off and you sang, you said, for 25 years, yes,   Susan Janzen ** 07:01 and I'm still singing. I'm still singing. That was Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 07:06 And I was reading that you sing with a seven piece, 17 piece, Big Band orchestra. I do.   Susan Janzen ** 07:12 It's called a Trocadero orchestra. It's so it's the whole horn section, the the rhythm section. It's so much fun, I can't tell you, so I we do that. We don't gig a lot because a lot of people don't want to put out the money for an ATP spend. But we do rehearse a lot, and we do the big, big events in the city. It's really fun. What kind of music? So big bands, so 40s, yes, and so all the Oh, exactly. We can do the Latin stuff I sing that's in mucho the same mucho is one of my songs. And I do, you know, there's so many, like, so many really good songs, but they're older songs that kind of the Frank Sinatra kind of era songs, all the big band stuff. I've   Michael Hingson ** 07:56 always thought that Bing Crosby was a better singer than Frank Sinatra. That's gonna probably cause some controversy. But why that?   Susan Janzen ** 08:04 I wonder. But you know what big, big Crosby was a little bit before, and then Frank Sinatra was called the crooner, and I think it was because of his blue eyes and how he looked. I think he took on a different persona. I think that's why I think it was more the singer than more the singer than the music. Maybe you think, I don't know. I   Michael Hingson ** 08:25 haven't figured that out, because Bing Crosby was, was definitely in the 40s. Especially, was a more well known, and I think loved singer than Frank. But by the same token, Frank Sinatra outlive Bing Crosby. So, you know, who knows, but I like being Crosby, and I like his music, and I like some Frank Sinatra music as well. I mean, I'm not against Frank Sinatra, yeah. I think, personally, the best male singer of all time. Yes, still, Nat King Cole   Susan Janzen ** 09:00 Oh, and I do? I do the dot I do orange colored sky neck and Cole's daughter, yeah, this one on my brain. Her name Natalie Cole, exactly. Yeah. But Nat King Cole was a really good singer, so I do agree with you in that. And we do some that can cool stuff. I do a lot of Ella Fitzgerald too, as well.   Michael Hingson ** 09:24 Yeah. Well, I, I've always liked and just felt Nat King Cole was the best of now, female singers, probably, again, a lot of people would disagree, but I really think that Barbara Streisand is, oh, there is.   Susan Janzen ** 09:37 I love her. Yeah, yeah, I did. I actually, I did an album. In the 719, 78 I recorded an album, and the main song on there was evergreen by Barbra Streisand. I   Michael Hingson ** 09:48 love that tune. Yeah, I was. I just have always liked Barbara Streisand. One of my favorite albums is Barbara Streisand at the forum. She James Taylor. And I forget who the third person was. Did a fundraiser for George McGovern in 1972 and I just always thought that that was Barbara's Best Album.   Susan Janzen ** 10:10 Ah, so such a voice. I mean, she could see anything. Yeah. Beautiful voice, yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, we're on the same page, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 10:19 Well, that's pretty cool. But so you, you grew up, you sang and and then what happened to you, or what did you do? What, what else occurred in your life that we should know about?   Susan Janzen ** 10:31 Oh, there's so many things. So then I, yeah, I know it's crazy. So I grew up, I think I still, I'm not quite there yet. I'm still growing. And then I when at 18, I got married, and I went on the road with a guitar player, and for 10 years, and then we had two kids. And then after five more years on the road, I actually got a divorce. And so I was six years as a single mom with two babies. The kids were, like, 11 months apart. They were really close. And so then that's when I did all my bigger gigs here in Edmonton, though, those are the like. I was hired as the first ever local Klondike Kate in Edmonton, Alberta. We have Klondike. We used to have Klondike games as our major summer fair, and it was a really big deal. It's kind of like the Calgary Stampede we had the Edmonton on Lake Bay, and so I was the representative of the city of Edmonton for two years. And I actually did it my first year. They made me audition for my second year. So I won it the second year. So I was the first ever two years in a row. And I represented the city all over North America. Actually, I sang, I met Muhammad Ali, I met some really great people, and I sang with Baba patola, did some commercials with him, went down to Vegas and played one of his stages. So I did a lot of really fun things in those two years, and convert a lot of commercials and a lot of telethons. So that was really fun. And then, and then, when that was over, that's when I got remarried to a wonderful man, and he was at University of Alberta, and he was a professor in psychology, education, psychology and so and I'm happy to say that we're just celebrated last week our 36th wedding anniversary. That's how old I am. Michael, congratulations.   Michael Hingson ** 12:18 Well, my wife, my wife and I were married for 40 years, and she passed in November of 2022, so, oh, so I I know what it's like to be married for a long time. I loved it. Love it. Still wonderful memories. It's unfortunate that all too many people don't ever get to have the joy of being married for such a long time. Yes,   Susan Janzen ** 12:43 and happily married, right? Like happily married? Yeah, that's the cavid.   Michael Hingson ** 12:50 Yeah. It's important to to acknowledge the happiness part of it. And I've got 40 years of memories that will never go away, which is great.   Susan Janzen ** 12:58 Nobody can take that away from you, that is for sure. They can't take that away from me. Don't take that away from me. That's   Michael Hingson ** 13:06 right, exactly. So that's that's pretty cool. So you do a lot of rehearsing and a lot of singing. What else do you do in the world today? So also   Susan Janzen ** 13:15 in the world today, I am, and I have been since 2003 I'm a residential real estate expert, so I'm a realtor, and I deal specifically with accessible and barrier free homes. So that's kind of my I was a special ed teacher. Actually, I should squeeze that in there for six years I was, I got my degree in education and with a special ed teacher in secondary ed. So all my kids were junior and senior high. And then when I came out of that, I took up the after I was teaching. I took real estate license, and I got it and I I just felt like I understood anybody with mobility challenges and with any other challenges. And so I took that extra time that is needed and necessary to to help them find homes and to sell.   Susan Janzen ** 14:02 What got you started down that road   Susan Janzen ** 14:05 at the time, I was teaching for six years, and when in Edmonton, I don't know why it was just here. So I was 2003 when I quit. So I had been teaching from the late 1990s and it was like I was subbing, but I was not getting a full time position in that and my Evanston public school board said your your file is glowing. We just don't have any spots for you. So I think it was a government funding issue. And so I ended up just thinking, I don't want to sub forever. I want to get my own classroom, and I want to have my own and I would, I would teach for six months at a time in a school. So it wasn't like I was jumping around crazy but, but I want, really wanted my own classroom. And so when that wasn't happening after six years, I thought I'm going to write the real estate license exam, and if I pass it the first time, that was my Gage, because no, they say the word was that you don't pass it the first time. Everyone has to write it to a. Three times before they pass my rule. For my own ruler for me was to say, if I take the exam, pass it the first time, I will make that move. And that's what happened so and then I just took up with accessible, barrier free homes and that specialty. So   Michael Hingson ** 15:17 was there any specific motivation that caused you to really deal with accessibility and accessible homes and so on.   Susan Janzen ** 15:25 Yes, and at the time, and just actually, my mom had been in a walker and on oxygen. I had quite a few friends who had mobility issues. And then just shortly after that, when I was a realtor already, and my daughter had a baby, and her baby at eight weeks old had a near SIDS incident. So she was eight weeks old, and Candace went to do the dishes one night at nine o'clock at night, and came back and calea is her daughter's name, and she was like blue in the crib. She was she had to be revived. So that was terrifying for all of us, and so it was wonderful news that she did survive, but she had occipital and parietal damage, so she has cortical vision impairment and also cerebral palsy, but she's she's thriving and loving it, and so that actually kind of Got me even doing more accessible homes, because now I'm a grand ambassador, and what's that called when you get out on the street and yell at people for parking in handicap stalls? What is that smart person? A smart person, and I was just passionate about that. I wanted to fix things and to try to make things easier for people as they should be, without having to ask in the first place. So yeah, so that's kind of the other reason I stuck to the that that area in real estate, and I just had the patience for it. I had the knowledge and the understanding and I and I really it was just easy for me because I did. I think it was because the passion I had for that area, and I just love doing it and helping other people   Michael Hingson ** 17:05 well. So how old is your granddaughter now? Now she is 12. Okay, she's 12. Now, does she walk, or does she use a wheelchair?   Susan Janzen ** 17:13 She uses, um, well, because she is as tall as me now, oh, she's using more a wheelchair more often, okay? She She walks with a walker. She can't walk on her own at all, and I think it's because of the vision, right? She if she could, you know, yeah, if she could see, she sees light. It's amazing how that how the brain works. She sees lights, and she sees color. And I can put up any color to her, and she'll identify it right every time, every time, but she doesn't see me. She doesn't see my face. Well, tell   Michael Hingson ** 17:45 me a little bit more about cortical vision. You. You and I talked about that a little bit. So Lacher, yeah, explain that to people. It's   Susan Janzen ** 17:52 really interesting because it's something that it's not readily out there, like you don't hear about it a lot. And even as a special ed teacher, I can tell you that I was trained in all of the different areas of special needs, but that did not come up for me, so this was new when I found out about it, and it just means that her eyes are fine. There's nothing wrong with her eyes, but her she's not processing so the information is coming through her eyes, but she's not processing that information. But she, like I said, if I turn out the light, she'll go, oh, the lights are off. Or if I put the lights on, she'll look up and be surprised at it. She you can tell that she knows. And then I used to put her on my counter in the kitchen, and I had these LED lights underneath my counter, my kitchen counter, and it had all these, these 12 different colors of light, and so I would put the blue on, I'd say, calea, what color is that? And she'd go blue, and I'd say, What color is that, and she'd go red. So it would be variable colors that I'd offer up to her, and she wouldn't get them right every single time. So that's the cortical vision impairment, and where they if she needs to pick up something off of a dresser, off the floor, for instance, it has to be on like a black background, and then she can see it, no problem. But if you have a whole bunch of things on the ground or on the table and ask her to pick up something, that's too much information for her, so she can't just zero in on that one area, right? So it's harder for her. So you just have to make things more accessible, so that she can see things you know, in her way.   Michael Hingson ** 19:25 But this is a different thing than, say, dyslexia, which is also you can see with your eyes, but your brain is in processing the characters and allowing you to necessarily truly read it exactly. And   Susan Janzen ** 19:38 that's that different part of the brain, where it's analyzing the the at least you can you can see it, but you process it differently. That's exactly right where she can't see. So then that's why I was thinking, if she could see better, I think she would be walking, maybe with a cane or with a walker, better. But right now, in that. Stage, we can point her in the right direction and tell her to go, and she'll go, but she's not sure where she is.   Michael Hingson ** 20:08 But that clearly wasn't the start of you doing real estate sales, dealing with accessible homes, but it must have certainly been a powerful motivator to continue with exactly   Susan Janzen ** 20:20 that, exactly that, because my mom was on oxygen, and she had, she had a lot of issues, mobility challenges. And I had a lot of friends who who were also like in that older age group that had mobility challenges. And those are the people that that were, may say, moving from a two story to a bungalow because they couldn't make manage the stairs anymore.   Michael Hingson ** 20:41 So how do we get people like the Property Brothers? Do you ever watch them and you know who they are? Oh yes, oh yes. We get them to do more to deal with building accessibility into the homes that they built. Because the the issue is that we have an aging population in our world. And it just seems like it would be so smart if they built accessibility and rights from the outset in everything that they do, because the odds are somebody's going to need it   Susan Janzen ** 21:11 exactly. And that's the for the forward thinking, right? You know? And it's interesting that some people, some builders, have told me that just to make a door frame three inches wider does not cost you any more money. But the point, the point is just that it's getting all the contractors on board to to come out of the way that they've been doing it for so long. You know, sadly,   Michael Hingson ** 21:38 yeah, my wife was in a chair her whole life, she was a teacher, paraplegic. Oh, so you know, I know about all this really well. And in fact, when we built this house, we we built it because we knew that to buy a home and then modify it would cost a bunch of money, one to $200,000 and in reality, when we built this house, there was no additional cost to make it accessible, because, as you point out, making doors wider, lowering counters, having ramps instead of stairs, all are things that don't cost more If you design it in right from the outset, exactly,   Susan Janzen ** 22:24 exactly, and that's that's the problem. Yeah, that's the problem. I mean, that's exactly the problem.   Michael Hingson ** 22:29 Yeah. Now we built our home in New Jersey when we moved back there, and we did have a little bit of an incremental extra cost, because all the homes in the development where we found property were two story homes, so we did have to put in an elevator, so it's about another $15,000 but beyond that, there were no additional costs, and I was amazed that appraisers wouldn't consider the elevator to be an advantage and an extra thing that made The home more valuable. But when we did sell our home in New Jersey, in fact, the elevator was a big deal because the people who bought it were short. I mean, like 5253, husband and wife, and I think it was her mother lived with them, and we put the laundry room up on the second floor where the bedrooms were, and so the elevator and all that were just really wonderful things for everyone, which worked out really well.   Susan Janzen ** 23:30 Oh, that's perfect. And that's, that's kind of what I do here in evident that I try to match the people who are selling homes that have been retrofitted and made more, you know, accessible. I try to put out the word that this is available, and I try to get the people in who need that. I feel like a matchmaker, a house matchmaker, when it comes to that, because you don't want to waste that like some people, actually, they'll some people who don't understand the situation have chairless For instance, they they're selling their house, and they rip out the chair. Then it's like, well, call me first, because I want to find you somebody who needs that, and that's exactly what they're looking for. Okay, so that's kind of where, how I I operate on my my job   Michael Hingson ** 24:15 well, and I will tell you from personal experience, after September 11 for the first week, having walked down 1400 63 stairs and was stiff as a board for a week, I used the elevator more than Karen did. Oh,   Susan Janzen ** 24:28 at that, but you survived that. And that was, that's amazing, but it   Michael Hingson ** 24:35 was, yeah, you know, you have to do what you gotta do. I think that there's been a lot more awareness, and I I've been back to the World Trade Center since, but I didn't really ask, and I should have, I know that they have done other things to make it possible to evacuate people in chairs, because there were a couple of people, like, there was a quadriplegic. Um. Who I believe is a distant cousin, although I never knew him, but he wasn't able to get out, and somebody stayed with him, and they both perished. But I think that they have done more in buildings like the World Trade Center to address the issue of getting people out.   Susan Janzen ** 25:17 It's just too bad that we have to wait for that, things, terrible things like that to happen to crazy awareness. That's the only bad thing. What? It's not like, it's not like we're not yelling on the streets. It's not like we're not saying things. It's just that people aren't listening. And I think it depends on if you're to a point where you are actually in a wheelchair yourself, or you have a child who's in a wheelchair now, now they understand, well,   Michael Hingson ** 25:43 yes, it is getting better. There's still a lot of issues. Organizations like Uber still really won't force enforce as they should. All the rules and regulations that mandate that service dogs ought to be able to go with Uber passengers who have a need to have a service dog, and so there, there's still a lot of educational issues that that have to occur, and over time will but I think that part of the issue was that when 2001 occurred, it was the right time that then people started to think about, oh, we've gotta really deal with this issue. It is an educational issue more than anything else. That's true. That's   Susan Janzen ** 26:26 true. There's a fellow here in Edmonton that, and I'm sure it's elsewhere too, but one particular fellow that I know, and he builds, they're called Garden suites. Like in Edmonton, we're kind of getting so much the population here is standing so quickly that the city is allowing zoning for they're called Garden suites, so they're just but he goes in and puts in like a two story behind the home, and it's 100% accessible, barrier free, and no basement. And so we're encouraging people to buy those homes, and they don't cost as much because they're quite a bit smaller. They're only two bedroom but they have everything that anybody would need if they had mobility challenges. And so it's it's perfect for either people who have a son or a daughter who is getting close to being an adult and they want their more a little more freedom and independence. They could use that suite at the back. Or I know some adults in particular who are have mobility challenges, and they just physically move to that new place in the backyard and rent out their home right to make home revenue.   Michael Hingson ** 27:31 Since it's two stories, what do they do to make it accessible? They   Susan Janzen ** 27:34 have, they have an elevator. It's a zero entry, and it's 100% everything in it is specifically so you move in, walk, go right in, and it's, it's accessible. That's how he does it, right from scratch. Cool, super cool. And so we're trying to, I'm trying to promote that here, out here, because I, I know the fellow who builds them, and it makes sense. I mean, even if you want to have a revenue property, right? And you want to build that in your backyard and then rent it out to somebody who needs that, then that'd be perfect.   Michael Hingson ** 28:06 It makes, makes a lot of sense to do that. It does. Mm, hmm. Well, do you think that all of the knowledge that you gained in special education and so on has helped you a great deal in this new, more, newer career of doing real estate sales.   Susan Janzen ** 28:25 Oh, 100% because it's just an understanding. It's just having the compassion and understanding what not, because I haven't experienced it myself, but I do understand what they may be going through. It's just an enlightening for me, and I I just appreciate what they're going through, and I am, you know, I want to make it easier for them, you know, to make any decisions that they have to make. And I try. I don't like, I don't waste their time like, I make sure I go preview the homes first, make sure that it's something and I FaceTime them first to say, is this something you want to even come out to? So I don't want them to be wasting their time or their energy just trying to get to a place that's not accessible,   Michael Hingson ** 29:05 right? Mm, hmm. We moved from New Jersey to Novato California, which is in the North Bay, which is now being just bombarded by rain, but Northern California in 2002 and when we started looking for homes, we tried to find a place where we could build, but there was just no place up there where there was land to build a home. So we knew we had to buy a home and modify it. And one day, we went with a realtor, and he took us to a house, and it was clearly a house that wasn't going to work. The this there were, there was no room to put in a ramp, there were lots of steps, and we pointed out all the reasons that it wouldn't work. And then he took us to another home that was really like the first one. We went to four different homes and. We kept saying, this won't work, and here's why, and it was like a broken record, because it was all the same. I'm so sorry. Yeah, you know, I realized that not everyone has the opportunity to really understand and learn about wheelchair access and so on. But people should focus more on on doing it. It wasn't like I needed a lot for the house to be usable by me as a blind person, but, but Karen certainly did. And what we eventually found another realtor took us to a place, and what was really interesting is we described what we wanted before we started looking at homes with Mary Kay, and she said, I have the perfect home. You'll have to modify it, but I have the perfect home. And of course, after our experiences with the other realtors, we were a little bit pessimistic about it, but she took us to a home, and there was a step up into it, but that's easy to modify. Then you go through an entryway, and then you can go left into the kitchen or right, and if you went right, you ended up in a little Nexus where there were three bedrooms, oh, and it wasn't even a hallway. There were just three bedrooms. And so it was, it was perfect. We still had to make significant modifications, but it really was a home that was modifiable by any standard, and we, we bought it. It was perfect   Susan Janzen ** 31:44 for what we needed. I'm so glad I love that's a good start. That's a good story here. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 31:50 she, she got it and and it's so important. And I think Realtors need to be aware of the fact that we deal with a very diverse population, and it's important to really understand all of the various kinds of people that you might have to deal with, but we just don't always see that. Needless to say,   Susan Janzen ** 32:08 that's true. Unfortunately, that's so true. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 32:14 So do you how? How much time do you spend doing real estate? Is that a full time job for you.   Susan Janzen ** 32:20 Well, it always has been. I've been full time, full service, so I'm on call, really is kind of what it boils down to. But I've also pursued, in the last since COVID, I've pursued coaching courses because that's something I'd like to get into. And so now I'm a certified Jay Shetty resilience and confidence coach, and so I'm kind of leading, I think, as I age and as I, you know, getting tired of I've been a realtor 21 years now, so I would like to eventually slow down in that area and focus more on coaching people. That's kind of where I'm leaning now a little bit, but I'm still full time up there. And singer   Michael Hingson ** 33:02 and singer and your coach, yeah. So do you ever see your coaching customers? Just check, no no   Susan Janzen ** 33:10 checking. I send them the recording. I'll send them my CD. You can go and get you could get two of my CDs on iTunes, so I'll send them there, or else tell them one of my geeks.   Michael Hingson ** 33:20 Oh, cool. Well, I'll have to go look you up on iTunes. I have, yes, oh, it   Susan Janzen ** 33:25 is a Christmas there's a Christmas one there. I think you'd like that. Michael, is it really cool?   Michael Hingson ** 33:29 And I have Amazon unlimited music. I wonder if. I'll bet there too. You   Susan Janzen ** 33:33 just take in. Susan Jansen, and I come up. I have the greatest love of all is my one, and the other one's called the gift for you, and that's my Christmas split. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 33:41 cool, yeah. Well, we will. We will check them out, by all means. Well, so when do you rehearse? When do you when do you do singing?   Susan Janzen ** 33:52 Well, the big band rehearses every Saturday. So we, we all get together and we do. So it's, I just, you know, I love the rehearsals, like it's so much fun for me. So that's what we do with my other singing. I still get I still get hired, especially during the summer festival time, I get hired to come back and we call it throwback Klondike dates. And I have one costume of all my costumes that were made for me this you can imagine my costumes is called that Kate were like, a lot of sequins, full dresses with the big furry bottoms and then the feathery hats. So I used to wear those. So I still have one costume that still fits me, and so I use that every summer, and I go out, and I'm asked to do different functions during the summer, and then during all throughout the year, I do parties, you know, like, what if somebody hires me to do a birthday or some special celebration? I still do that. Okay, so   Michael Hingson ** 34:47 how often does the big band actually go out and perform and earn some money? Or does that happen much at all? Not that much because of   Susan Janzen ** 34:54 the size of us, right? Yeah. So, you know, we've done, you know, like the 100th anniversary of Arthur. Is a dance floor. And so we did their 100th anniversary celebration. And can you imagine, like the dance floor was just, it was like I was watching my own show from from the stage, because they we did all the Latin tunes, and they came out and danced the Sava and the rambas and the tangos and everything. It was beautiful. So I got to so that was a really fun gig for us, and then, and so we do other big and larger functions, like in ballroom. So you can imagine a conference, perhaps that's having a big celebration will be the ballroom entertainment. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 35:32 you know, you're in Canada. Can't you get Michael Buble to hire you guys? Ooh,   Susan Janzen ** 35:35 wouldn't that be nice? He's got his own man. He's   Michael Hingson ** 35:39 got, yeah, he does. I know these old charts and yeah, but he occasionally brings to the choir. I know that we, we went to see him well. Karen passed in November of 2022 we actually went to see him in Las Vegas in May of 2022 that was the last concert that we got to do together. And we ended up being relocated from up in the balcony in what Henry, what Harry Belafonte, would call the scholarship section. We We got moved down to the orchestra pit, and we were like in row 18, even two rows in front of Michael's family, but we ended up being there for the concert. It was wonderful. Oh, and he walked out and shook hands with everyone while he was singing, and all that was a lot of fun. But, yeah, he does have his own band, but music's great,   Susan Janzen ** 36:36 so good, and he does that so well. Like my favorite show is the voice. And so he's a judge on there too, and I really appreciate input. And he comes off very Canadian. I think he's this is very friendly and very silly and fun and and just really caring too. So I think he represents us well on the voice.   Michael Hingson ** 36:56 He does not take himself too seriously, which is so important, I think for so many people, so true. He does so well with that. So true. Well, so we mentioned pada Palooza, and you have a podcast. Well also, and you, you've written a book, right?   Susan Janzen ** 37:14 Yes. So I've co authored a few books, and then, plus my husband and I Well, my husband actually is a psychologist. He wrote the book, I typed it, and then he gave me credit, because I kept putting in my own stories and and he would, he was kind enough to put my name on the cover. So and we wrote a book called living and loving each day. And that's how, why I made my podcast that same name, and, and, but when we wrote it, the full title is living and loving each day success in a blended family. Because at that time when we got married, I had the two children, and they were just under you know, they were nine and 10 years old, eight and nine years old, and his boys, he had three boys that were older, like teenagers, and so and his wife passed away from cancer. So we all got together. And I mean blended families, that's a whole nother world, you know, if you're not used to that, that's something else. And, and then it turned out that his oldest son was diagnosed schizophrenic, so that was something that we dealt with together as a family. And, and, and then yeah we so we just felt like this was our life, and we wanted to share that. But that's like combining two separate families together, and how that works, and the dynamics of that. So he wrote some great, great stuff about how to deal with in laws, X laws and outlaws. He called them Yeah, and how to deal with every family celebration, Christmas and Easter, everything you know, like, there's so many things that come up even think about until you're in that situation, like, how do you do it? Right?   Michael Hingson ** 38:52 But it's so great that you two made the choice to do it and to blend the families and not give up on each other, or any of the people in the family, exactly,   Susan Janzen ** 39:04 and that's in that's huge for me. And I can share a little story with you. Feel like the view is okay. So this is kind of cool. So this so when I was singing, and I was just at the end of my second year as Klondike Kate, and I was doing a lot of gigs, like a lot of singing and and I was just kind of cut, you know how they like you're, you see on the calendar that they're you're tuning down here. The end of the year is coming. The end of the gigs are coming, and you're not in that role anymore because they chose a new Klondike. And so those six years that I was a single mom, my husband now had his own radio show, and it was called that's living and there was a show out of Edmonton, and it actually won Canadian awards for this was a talk show during the day for one and a half hours, and it had two psychologists, and the psychiatrists were the hosts. And so on the Tuesdays and Thursdays with Dr Jan, that was my husband and I used. To listen every day because I had, I was a single mom. I really didn't have a lot of support, and I worked every night singing so and I had my kids all day. So it was just like my favorite show to listen to. And when I remember listening to and I heard this Dr Johnson's voice, I always thought he had, like, long white hair, long white beard, so he was just so calm and so compassionate and so smart that he was just such a I never knew what he looked like, but that's what I pictured him looking like. And then it turned out that right at the end of my my singing, I remember listening one day, and he was on the air, and he I was going to my agents I was driving down Main Street in Edmonton, and I remember going to my agent's office to see what was next for me, like, what's next? What next gig do I have? And I remember he came on the air that day, and he said, You know what, folks, I have to let you know that his he said, My wife passed away. And he said, My boys and I've been grieving since the day we found out six months ago. But I need to be here to be of service to you, and I need to be on the air to help you today. And hope you don't mind. I hope you understand, you know he was, you know, and it was, it was so emotional, and like I was sitting in my van, like crying, thinking, because I'd been listening to him all those years, and I just felt so sad for him. And then I kind of, I'm a God fearing woman, and I said, Lord, why can't I meet a man like that that needs me as much as I need him. That was my outside prayer. And you know what? It wasn't even a week and a half later, I get a call from that station, CTC, saying, hey, Sue, can you do a Christmas Bureau fundraiser for us? He said, There's no pay involved, but you can be MC and and, you know, help us. You know, raise money for the Christmas funeral. And so I was happy to do that. And so that's how, how I met my husband was when at that particular function. So that was kind of my, you know, and like, just an answer to prayer and something that I really, you know, it was interesting how, how that all happens when you are very specific and, and so that's how we met. And, yeah, so we've been together ever since 36 years now. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 42:06 as I tell people, you know, Karen passed away two years ago, and I don't move on from Karen, but I move forward exactly because I think if I I've always interpreted Moving on is you go on and you forget, and I don't, and I don't want to forget, so I move forward Exactly. And besides that, I know that if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I gotta be a good kid, or she's going to get me one way or another. Yeah, that's right. And so, you know, as I, as I said to somebody yesterday, I don't even chase girls, so you know, it works out very well, but you know, the the the issue is that those 40 years of memories are always going to be there, and there's so much to learn from that. And again, it's all about choice. This is so important well, so tell us more about the podcast on how long have you been doing it? How did that start? And and so on,   Susan Janzen ** 43:03 right? So I was actually my daughter has this a nonprofit where she was she works with other parents who have children with adaptive needs, and so she asked if I would interview her parents just to find out about parents stories and you. I'm sure you understand where you want to just tell your story, what happened without having to explain. And, you know, I don't know, just give all the, you know, the background to everything. They just wanted to share this story and to be heard on with no judgment and with compassion. So I said, No, I can do that. I can interview them, and I want to hear their stories. And they need, I think they need to share them those stories too, for whatever happened, you know, with whatever incident happened with their children. So, so I said to my daughter, I sure I'll do a podcast for them, you know, and just interview them. And then I only did it through zoom and not knowing anything about how to do that, I've been MC for fundraisers, but I don't know how to do a podcast. So I did that the best I could, using Zoom. And then I when I was done it, I liked it so much, I thought, well, I better figure out how to do this, like the right way, right? So I actually did take a course. And there was a lady out of Toronto that was giving a course called cash in on camera. And so she talked about how to set up restream, how to set up air table, how to do your mic, your lighting, and all of the things that you need to consider. And so I took that course. And so then I interviewed a few more people and a few experts for her, for her. So that's kind of how I got started, with just focusing specifically on on my daughter's audience. So those parents.   Susan Janzen ** 44:40 And how long ago was that?   Susan Janzen ** 44:41 That was, what, two years ago now total, because I've been doing my podcast now for just over a year.   Susan Janzen ** 44:48 And do you how many episodes a week? Do you do one?   Susan Janzen ** 44:51 I do one, but I, you know what? I've got 140 that I've done. And I'm thinking, I've got quite. If you in the books, you know how that works. Where you report I'm you, Michael, give me advice on this. So I have three recorded that are waiting for me, but plus I have 14 others that are on my book to interview like I'm getting a lot of interest and people who want to be on my podcast, which is wonderful, but then I got, now gotta figure out how to do that, or how to actually, you know, organize it. How often should I be putting out podcasts? Like every three days now, like otherwise, we're going to be going into middle of 2025 I don't know.   Michael Hingson ** 45:33 I started for accessibe, doing unstoppable mindset in August of 2021 when I started using LinkedIn seriously to look for podcast guests in 2022 and I use sales navigators, so we profile authors or coaches or whatever, and we'll send out emails saying, I saw your profile. It looks like you'd be an interesting guest. Would you love to explore coming on unstoppable mindset, what we do is then we, when they're willing, we schedule a meeting and we we talk about it, and if they want to come on, which usually they do, then we actually schedule the time, and I ask them to send me some information, as you know, like a series of questions that they want to talk about, a bio, other things like that, but we got a pretty significant backlog. And I've learned that a lot of people with very successful podcasts do have backlogs. Oh, good. There's nothing wrong with that. Okay, good. It's better to have them. You can always add an extra podcast if you want to play more, but we do two a week now, and just today, we published episode 286, wow. Since August of 2021, and so it's a lot of fun. I enjoy it, and I get to meet so many people. And as I tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as anyone who listens to the podcast, I'm not doing my job well. I agree, quite invested in it. I think it's so important to be able to do that. So the bottom line is that we do get a lot of interesting people. I talked to someone just the other day who is very much involved in energy and healing and so on. Well, she also was a singer in Australia, had a very serious auto accident, and kind of went away from seeing for a while, and then she realized she started doing a lot of creating, of affirmations, but then she put the affirmations to music, and she points out that, you know, the lyrics are in the left side of the brain, but the music's in the right side, and they actually work together, and so by having them in a musical form, you you're more likely to really be able to internalize them. So she even sang one for us on the earth, a lot of fun, but, but the bottom line is that, you know, it's she also does her own podcast, which is kind of fun, but there is so much to learn from so many different people. I've had so much fun doing it, and I enjoy very much the opportunities to learn. Yeah,   Susan Janzen ** 48:29 no, I'm right there with you, and I think that's why I just keep going, because it's fascinating. And then, and it seems like the right different people come into my, my, you know, my area, just to ask if they can be on it. And it's, it always works out really well, like it's always something that else that I've just kind of broadens it a little bit, but I, I'm trying to be more focused this night, last two months now, in that, you know, in conjunction with my daughter and just doing the parents with accessible, you know, needs, or kids with adaptive needs. And also, some adults are coming to me now too, saying they've in their 30s and 40s, they were in psycho with ADHD, and so they're that diverse, neuro, diverse group. So, I mean, who knows where that will take me, right? I'm open to it   Michael Hingson ** 49:18 well, and that's what makes it so much fun. You never know where the journey is going to take you, or if you do, and you're all embracing it, so much the better. But if you don't know what's an adventure, and that's good too, that's   49:28 great. No, I agree with you, yeah. So I love how   Michael Hingson ** 49:31 many, how many pot of Palooza events have you been to? That   Susan Janzen ** 49:34 was my first one. I know I did not have a clue what to expect. I put you down as my potential guest, though, but I don't know how it didn't come up forward. So I'm glad we're doing this now, but I I really enjoyed it. I love the people, and you could tell we were all in the same room with the same visions and the same, you know, compassionate areas that we're working in. So. I was really grateful for a lot of the people I met, great people. Well   Michael Hingson ** 50:03 now you and I also have an event time scheduled next Tuesday. Do we good? Yeah, are you? Well, you scheduled it in my Zoom. But if you, if you, when you go look at your calendar, you'll see, I think what you did was you scheduled it, forgetting this was supposed to be a 60 minute interview conversation. But if you send me a link, this is live radio sports fans. If you send me a link, then I will come to yours next time, next Tuesday, at the time that we're supposed to meet, rather than you coming into the Zoom Room, where we are, or I can make you a co host, and you can record it your choice.   Susan Janzen ** 50:45 Oh, what? Hey, yes, let's do it. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 50:49 I'll just, we'll, we'll get together, and I'll make you a host or a co host, that'd be perfect.   Susan Janzen ** 50:54 And then you can record it that'd be great. Or, I have three streams, so I can send you the link for that you   Michael Hingson ** 51:01 choose, but long as it's accessible to screen readers, I'm happy. And,   Susan Janzen ** 51:09 yeah, thank you for that, Michael, I did. We'll do that. You got it good. We're booked. Yeah, we are   Michael Hingson ** 51:16 already booked. So it's next Tuesday, so that'll be good. That'll be great, but it's a lot of fun.   Susan Janzen ** 51:23 Yeah, really it's it's nice to get to know people. It's really nice to know other people's journeys. And especially, what I find most fascinating is all over the world, like we're meeting people that we would have never met. Yeah, you know before. So I'm glad. I really   Michael Hingson ** 51:36 appreciate that I've met a number of people from Australia. We interviewed? Well, we had a conversation with somebody from Uganda, number of people in England and people throughout the United States. So it's a lot of fun.   Susan Janzen ** 51:49 It really is, yeah, so we're blessed that that's great. It's a   Michael Hingson ** 51:53 wonderful blessing. I mean, doing this is so enjoyable. I used to do radio in college, and so this the neat thing about doing a podcast, at least the way I do it, is you're not absolutely governed by time, so you don't have to end at four o'clock and and it's so much more fun than radio, because you are the one that's really in control of what you do. So it's it's a lot of fun, but I very much enjoy doing the podcast, right?   Susan Janzen ** 52:23 You're right is that if they start having to go to worship break and not have to take the time and stopping and starting, that is really,   Michael Hingson ** 52:30 oh, that people seem to like it. They they keep emailing me and saying they like it. And I, I'm hoping that they continue to do that. As long as people are happy with me doing it, I'm going to do it. And you know, as I tell everyone, if you know anyone who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, want to hear from you and provide us with an introduction, because it is part of what we do. And so, so much fun,   Susan Janzen ** 52:53 so much fun. So tell me why you Why did you choose that name unstoppable mindset?   Michael Hingson ** 52:59 You know, I was looking for a name. And I've heard some people kind of talking about unstoppable in their lives in some way, but I also thought that we really needed to define what unstoppable meant. And so I just thought about it for a while, and it just really kind of clicked. And I said, Okay, God, that must be what you want me to do. So we're going to have unstoppable mindset. We're inclusion, diversity in the unexpected beat. Love it and it's and it is stuck. And every title for people starts with unstoppable. So you'll be unstoppable something or other. I gotta think about the title, unless you've got some bright idea.   Susan Janzen ** 53:48 Oh yeah, you have to let me know.   Michael Hingson ** 53:51 Well, I'm trying to use something like unstoppable. Woman of many talents. But you know,   Susan Janzen ** 53:56 yeah, I don't have just 111, little lane. I love learning about everything, and I love open and grateful for every opportunity. So that's probably my problem. Yeah, that's our problem. That's not really a problem, but I know it's not,   Michael Hingson ** 54:11 and it's so much fun. So what are your goals for the podcast? How do you hope it will make a difference in the world?   Susan Janzen ** 54:21 I think my, my biggest thing is to say, you know, I've been through, I think it's showing people that they're not alone, that there are people out there who do understand, and there are people there that really do care about them, and that we want to provide information and services, and we want to hear their story. We want them to just know. I think a lot of people feel when they're in situations that are not whatever normal is, whatever that is even mean that they're just they're in isolation, and they're there's nobody that cares and that they don't matter. And I think my biggest thing in my coaching and in my podcast. Have to just say, You know what, we're here, and we really want to understand, if we don't understand, explain it to us. So we do, and that you're not alone in this, and we we're here to help, you know, to collaborate and to help each other.   Michael Hingson ** 55:11 Yeah, well, tell us a little bit more about the whole coaching program, what's what's happening now, what your goals are for that, and and how you're finding people and so on,   Susan Janzen ** 55:22 right? So the coaching my specific areas are confidence and resilience is my is my title, like confidence and resilience coach and I, and I'm going based on my past and the resilience that I've overcome so many different things. So I've got kind of a long list of things every time. So you talk to say, yeah, no, I that's happened to me, but, and just to, just to encourage people to come into either one on one coaching, or I'm going to have group coaching. And on my website, I also want to have drivers where we we create more value, so that if they're a member, then they can get more podcasts that are more about the how tos, like exactly, specifically areas that they might be interested in. And I also want to create a group where we can have, like a one day a week, coffee time, coffee chat, so we can get people together who are in the same boat, especially those parents with children with a breath of me, and just a place where they can just, kind of no agenda, just to chat and and I also would love to have, like a retreat by the end of the year. Let's all gather, and let's just have a day, you know, together, where we can enjoy each other's company. So that's kind of what I'd like to build with my, with my, with my coaching packages, and then also one on one, of course, as well. And that's, yeah, I would like to have a community, like, build a community. So   Michael Hingson ** 56:51 do you do any of your coaching virtually, or is it all in person? Well,   Susan Janzen ** 56:55 right now it's virtual, like, the one coaching I've done so far and but I'm open to either, like, I'm happy to meet people I don't have an office. Um, is that interesting? How, if you would have asked me that question before COVID, bc I would have just had an office somewhere, and where now it's, like, virtual just is so convenient. Yeah? Meeting full and just all the driving I've eliminated, it's been amazing. So, yeah, I would be open to eat it. You know,   Susan Janzen ** 57:27 how far away have you had clients from?   Susan Janzen ** 57:31 Basically, the ones I've had are the ones that I've had up till now. Really, interestingly enough, are local. They're more local people so we could have met for coffee. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 57:43 and still might, and we still, I'm   Susan Janzen ** 57:47 sure we will. I'm sure we will, because I keep in touch with them, and they're doing great, but interesting, isn't that interesting? It's a really good question, though, because I'm curious to see you know how far you know, the word will get out to come and join me, you know, in the coaching program, yeah, that'd be human.   Michael Hingson ** 58:08 Well, it sounds like a lot of fun. It sounds like fun, yeah, so why do you still continue to sing? Oh, I   Susan Janzen ** 58:15 can't stop I can't shut up. I just think it's like, even it, yeah, it's too hard for me to stop. It's my joy. That's where I find my you know, even as a kid, going through all the tough times I went through, that was my my joy. It was my vice happy place. So I just   Michael Hingson ** 58:32 so do you think that that singing helps others with confidence and resilience?   Susan Janzen ** 58:36 I um, I think, I think the the techniques that are used in singing, a lot of them are used in podcasting or speaking. A lot of them, we are speakers, for instance. And then they have, they worry about confidence on camera specifically, and when that where light comes on, or when the light comes on, and they just don't know how they're looking or how people are seeing them, those kind of areas, those are the things that I kind of tackle when I talk, talk to them and just explain it as a like, I sang the national anthem for a Stanley Cup playoff game. That's scary, like, that's that's really scary. So I mean, I know I've been there, and I know what that feels like, and I know how your body feels, and I know the importance of breathing, and I think one of the biggest things is just getting people to, just to take deep breaths. You know, when   Michael Hingson ** 59:28 you're when you relax and you lean into it, which I'm sure you do because you're used to it. That gives you a confidence that you can then project onto other people 100% Yeah, exactly. You talked about the red light on the camera coming on. It reminds me of one of my favorite stories. Yeah, right after September 11, I was interviewed on Larry King Live on scene. Oh, wow, wow. We actually had five different interviews, and when the second one occurred, mm. Uh, the the the producer, the director, came into the studio where I was and Larry was still out in California, and I was doing it from CNN in New York. And you know, when they, when they do their shows, everything is like, from sort of the chest up. It's mainly dealing with your face and so on. So for Roselle, excuse me, for Roselle to be able to be my guide dog, to be part of the show, they build a platform that we put her up on. Now she was just laying there. And the director came in and he said, you know, your dog isn't really doing anything. Is there anything we can do to make her more animated? And I said, are the Clea lights on? Because I couldn't really tell and he said, No. I said, then don't worry about it. When those lights come on, she will be a totally different dog, because she figured out cameras. She loved to go in front of the camera. The klieg lights came on, she lifts up her head, she's yawning, she's blinking, she's wagging her tail. It was perfect. Yeah, it's one of my favorite stories. But that is so great. I guess it's also the time to tell you that the name of my third guide dog was, here it comes, Klondike. Oh, really, my third guide dog, anything was a golden retriever. His name was Klondike.   Susan Janzen ** 1:01:18 Oh, that's and I know I'm public dates, and then you got two of us here. This is great. Yeah, that is so cool. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:26 if people want to reach out and get get in contact with you, they want to learn about your coaching programs and so on. How do they do that?   Susan Janzen ** 1:01:35 So I think the best way is, my website is this, www, dot Sue. Janssen, I'm just going by my short Susan. So S, U, E, J, a, n, z, e n, dot, C, A diamet, and that'll kind of give you everything there. There'll be a little video of my granddaughter on there. There'll be ways to get in touch with me and to book a call. So that would be great. And then we'll chat about it,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:59 and we have an image of your book cover in in the show notes and so on. And so I hope people will pick that up. Um, I always ask this, although a lot of times it doesn't happen. But does it happen to also be availabl

Our guest this time is a prolific author, Kim Lengling. Kim is prolific as she has been the lead author on six book anthologies. I cannot say that she came by writing honestly. She grew up in a small Northern Pennsylvania town. After graduating from high school instead of going on to college Kim joined the military with great thoughts and ideas of leaving her small town upbringing and seeing the world. As she describes it, she did leave the small town world, but she only had military duty state side. After four years of service she left the military life and moved back to a “small town” in Pennsylvania.   Over time she began and pursued a career in sales and marketing. Along the way she married and had a daughter. She also took a keen interest in helping veterans and veteran organizations.   I asked Kim how she began her writing career. She will tell the story about how she was asked to give a speech to some 800 veterans. The story about her talk is remarkable and the unexpected turn her life made after her speech is worth hearing directly from Kim. Bottom line is that Kim was convinced to begin writing articles. Since 2020 she added writing and self publishing books to her repertoire of accomplishments.   As it turns out, Kim and I both experienced unexpected life changes due to public speaking. Both of us chose to take full advantage of the opportunities that came our way and we both are the better for it. I very much enjoyed my conversation with Kim and I hope you will as well.       About the Guest:   As a multi-published author, Kim shares her love of nature and animals, her life with PTSD, and her mission to toss out Nuggets of Hope through her writing and podcast. Kim is the lead author and coordinator of six anthologies: The When Grace Found Me Series (three books), When Hope Found Me, Paw Prints on the Couch, and Paw Prints on the Kitchen Floor. Her newest book, Nuggets of Hope, was released on November 15, 2024. In addition to writing, she hosts the podcast Let Fear Bounce, which spotlights people who have faced and overcome personal fear(s) to make a difference in their slice of the world through writing, coaching, film production, philanthropy, teaching, founding non-profits, public speaking, or simply being an amazing human being. You can regularly find Kim drinking coffee, reading, and talking with the critters in the woods while taking long walks with her dog, Dexter. Visit her website, www.kimlenglingauthor.com, to keep up with everything happening in her realm.   Ways to connect Kim:     Website:                                www.kimlenglingauthor.com   Amazon:                               https://www.amazon.com/author/kimlengling   Let Fear Bounce                 @Letfearbounce Apple:                                   https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/let-fear-bounce/id1541906455   Facebook:                            https://www.facebook.com/letfearbouncepodcast   LinkedIn:                              https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimberlylengling/   Instagram:                            https://www.instagram.com/lenglingauthor/   Twitter:                                  https://www.tiktok.com/@klengling?lang=en   TikTok:                                 ** https://www.tiktok.com/@klengling?lang=en   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. And today is kind of a fun one, because I get to talk to another author. One of the things that I participate in and have done for a little while are book fairs, including virtual book fairs, and our guest today, Kim Lengling and I, lengling and I were both on a virtual book fair just a couple of weeks ago talking about our books and this and that and all the other stuff. And I made it really clear that I'm always looking for a good podcast guests, and it just seemed like the right thing to do. And of course, then Kim said, well, not unless you're going to be on my podcast too. So we are going to reciprocate next week. So I actually had a a message, an email yesterday from someone who wanted me to come on their podcast to talk about disabilities. And then they, before I responded, they sent a second letter saying, You do understand, we don't pay for podcast guests or anything like that, which I never expected to to have to to deal with anyway. But I wrote back, and I said, Well, I'm sorry, I do charge. And the charges that you have to be on if you want me on your podcast, then you gotta be on my podcast too. So it's fun to tease, but anyway, Kim, welcome to unstoppable mindset. After all that.   Kim Lengling ** 02:44 Well, thank you. Thanks for having man, I think it's going to be fun doing a podcast swap. Oh   Michael Hingson ** 02:49 yeah, it's a lot of fun to do that, and it's and it's kind of neat, and we get to know each other better and all that. And next year, when we have the book fair, we can, we can always team up on other people, because we'll know each other better.   Kim Lengling ** 03:01 That's right. That is right. And I those book fairs. They're fun. I enjoy doing those. They are and   Michael Hingson ** 03:08 I think the video of it is now out, so it's pretty cool that it is there and is available so well, I want to again. Thank you for coming on and chatting. It's always fun. And as I explained, our podcasts, our conversation, so let's converse and go from there. I'd love to start by learning kind of, maybe, about the early Kim growing up and all that stuff. Early Kim, the early Kim a long time ago, and I guess, long, long, far away.   03:43 You know, like I get that song stuck in my head.   03:47 Oh, yeah,   Kim Lengling ** 03:50 okay, well, I grew up in a small country town, and I think my graduating class had 72 people total, and it was just, you know, I'm glad I grew up where I did and how I did in the country. I grew up playing outside, and I still play outside every day, 50 some years later. But yet, growing up in a small town, everybody knows each other, which is wonderful, and everybody knows each other, which can be kind of crappy, too, sometimes.   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 Well, there's the other song, everybody knows your name. Oh yeah. From cheers,   04:29 yeah. We're just going to keep on breaking.   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 We're doing great.   Kim Lengling ** 04:37 But yeah, I grew up in a small town, and I I'm very appreciative of the small town, I guess I don't know morals and ethics that I learned growing up, and I've tried very hard when raising my own daughter, who is now married and has her own daughter, I tried and worked hard to instill that those same type of values. Within her. And I think I did a pretty good job. But I did, I did. I liked how I grew up, and then I left my small town right after graduation and went into the military, and thinking, you know, oh yeah, I'm gonna go to this small town and I'm gonna see the world by Gully. And it's, you know, it's, it's a, it's an eye opener. I because I didn't go to college, so, you know, I don't know that. I don't have that experience. I went into the military, and that's an eye opener. It's just, wham, you are no longer small town camp. Yeah, you are now. You are now a spoke in the wheel, and we and you don't even have a name, and you're going to be rebuilt into something different. And I am truly thankful, actually, for my military experience. I feel everybody should have to be in it for at least 12 months. It teaches you so much about discipline, self awareness, leadership skills that we can all use as we grow and you know, yeah, that's kind of my younger self in a small nutshell.   Michael Hingson ** 06:10 How long were you in the military? Four years. Okay, now, the small town you grew up in was that in Pennsylvania? Yes. Okay, so, yep,   Kim Lengling ** 06:21 grew up surrounded by farm fields and cows and deer and everything else, all the critters and all that. I just, I love it, and I still live in the same type of area not far from my small town that I grew up in, and still get to enjoy all of the nature, you know, all of the critters that come through. And just I had a black bear come through the other day. Michael, ooh, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 06:41 And did you have a good conversation with the bear? No,   Kim Lengling ** 06:45 I didn't chat. Didn't want to do that, huh? No, it's I've seen that. I've seen I've lived where I'm at now for, gosh, just about just shy of 30 years, and I've seen bear tracks out there when I'm walking with my dog, but I've never actually come face to face with the actual bear. It was caught on a trail cam, and my neighbors sent it to me and said, Hey, this guy's going through your backyard at 430 this morning. And I'm like, Oh, boy.   Michael Hingson ** 07:16 I don't know whether you can ever make friends with a bear or not.   Kim Lengling ** 07:19 I you know, I'm not going to try. I don't think, yeah, they're kind   Michael Hingson ** 07:24 of big. They are kind of big. I suppose, if they make the initial Overture and they're friendly about it, that's one thing, but probably going the other way is a little bit more risky. Yeah,   Kim Lengling ** 07:36 yeah. I, you know, I would probably just not want to try. Yeah, just, you know, they're 700 and up pounds. That's, uh, that's, They're big. They're   Michael Hingson ** 07:46 big. Well, and then there's always a moose, which gets even bigger.   Kim Lengling ** 07:50 And see, we don't have moose where I'm at, yeah, yeah. And I've never seen one of those in person either. But I always thought, you know, well, you see online and stuff, just how big they are, they're so tall, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 08:04 and they're probably not the most friendly creatures. Oh,   Kim Lengling ** 08:07 they're not see, I don't know anything about moose, because we don't have them in my neck of the woods.   Michael Hingson ** 08:13 Yeah, I think it'd be fun to try to meet one, but I don't know whether that would be a good idea or not, so I don't either. If somebody else tells me that they have a moose that I could meet, I would believe them. But until that happens, I'm not going to worry   Kim Lengling ** 08:28 about it. Yeah, yeah, not something to worry about.   Michael Hingson ** 08:31 I don't Same, same with a bear. Now, on the other hand, I know your dog's name is Dexter, yeah, and I wonder what Dexter would think of a moose or a bear close up.   Kim Lengling ** 08:44 You know, I'm not sure, because he does his he's a he's pretty big dog. He's not huge, but he's a bigger dog. And there are certain times when we're out in the evening because it's pitch black. I mean, I'm out in the country. There's no lights out here, so it's pitch black out there. So I have a flashlight, and he has a collar on that lights up. And there are times when he will stop, and I call it his big boy stance, because he stops and his whole body just stiffens up, and he's staring at the woods. Now he can see stuff I can't Yeah, yeah, you know. And so I sit there, and I flash the flashlight back through there, because I carry a very powerful flashlight with me, so it lights up everything. And then when I see two yellow eyes staring at me from the woods, I'm never really sure what it might be. And I watch what Dexter's doing, yeah, and there are times where he where he will put himself in front of me, and then there's times where he comes and he will bump my leg with his head, and then turns and starts running back to the house, like, stay out here. Yeah, yeah. So it's been interesting to watch how he how he I follow his lead. When it's dark outside and we're outside, I. Follow   Michael Hingson ** 10:00 his lead. Smart move. What kind of dog is Dexter?   Kim Lengling ** 10:03 He is a Belgian Malwa Mastiff mix. Oh, so he's a big one, kinda, yeah, yeah, not huge. He's about 80 pounds, but he's a he's a good sized dog,   Michael Hingson ** 10:13 bigger than my black lab guide dog, Alamo, who's about 63 pounds.   Kim Lengling ** 10:18 Oh, okay. Labs are wonderful. Labs are awesome. But   Michael Hingson ** 10:22 again, it's all about trust. And I would trust Alamo's instincts any day and do and of course, yes, yeah, you know, but, but it isn't just the the normal guiding, but just in general, his behavior. I observe it pretty closely, and I think it's an important thing to do, because, as you said, they tend to see a whole lot of things that we don't necessarily see.   Kim Lengling ** 10:47 Right, right? No, yeah, even with my other dog, digger, prior to Dexter, digger was about 105 pounds. He was a pretty big dog, real tall and lean and long. He was very protective of me. Oh, and he would always have to be touching me or in front of me, and I took him everywhere with me. We were always out in public, and he was always if someone would approach, he would let them know I would follow his lead. He would never growl, but he would show his teeth like a scary smile, yeah. And I'd be like, Okay, we're not going any further. I'm not going to interact with this person. This person. And then other times he would just come and kind of nudge me, and his tail would start wagging. I'm like, Okay, this person's probably okay. Then it's very you know, dogs or animals period, are just amazing in their instincts. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 11:34 I've been pretty blessed that Alamo has not yet met a stranger. But also we haven't really encountered anyone that would be a really mean, nasty person, and I have seen some dogs who do sense that very well. My first guide dog was a golden retriever. He was 64 pounds, and when we were in college, and I wrote about it in my my new book, live like a guide dog in in college. On our first year we were at UC Irvine. It was a very open, somewhat rural campus, just in terms of what was around us in Orange County, which is not so rural anymore, but people would bring their dogs to campus, and they would just let the dogs roam while they went to class, and then they'd find them at the end and a bunch of dogs, just all congealed, if you will, into a pack. And they would, they would go around together. And one day, they decided that they were going to come after Squire and me. They were behind us, and as they got closer, they were growling, and Squire was doing his job of guiding, but all of a sudden he jerked, and actually jerked the harness out of my hand. I still held his leash, but he he completely jerked away, and literally, as it was described, because somebody else was watching it, he jerked, leaped up, turned around, and went down on all fours, facing these dogs, and started growling, and it just completely caught them off guard, and they just slunked away. But I've never seen a dog do that before, and I haven't seen a dog do that since, and Squire, of all dogs, a golden retriever, for heaven's sakes,   Kim Lengling ** 13:22 right? Yeah, they're usually just friendly, friendly, friendly, yeah, but   Michael Hingson ** 13:25 he, he knew what he was doing, and yeah, and he, he dealt with them.   Kim Lengling ** 13:32 That's awesome. Well, so I just love dogs.   Michael Hingson ** 13:35 Oh, yeah. Well, and we, and we have a cat here. So my wife passed away two years ago. So it's me, dog and cat,   13:43 and quite the trio you have going on.   Michael Hingson ** 13:46 Then we all, we all communicate very well, and they all, and they like each other. And I would not have it any other way. I would not want a guide dog that was in any way antagonistic toward cats. Now, now that wouldn't work well. Now Alamo doesn't Chase Stitch. Stitch has claws. I think Alamo is smart enough that he understands that, but, but they do rub noses and they play and they talk. So it works out all right, and every so often, stitch will steal Alamo's bed, and poor Alamo doesn't know what to do with himself, because he can't lay on his bed because the cat's there and he won't try to make her move. I think a couple times they both have been on the bed, but mostly not,   Kim Lengling ** 14:28 yeah, yeah. My my dog. Unfortunately, he's like, a single animal type dog, you know, it can only be him and and the neighbors cats. Sometimes, if they end up in my yard, he gets them up in a tree. So he's he's got a he's got a very big prey drive for anything smaller than him. We   Michael Hingson ** 14:53 had a we had a dachshund. Once it was a miniature dachshund. Oh, and he treated cat. One day before my brother and I went off to high school for the day, and this cat was up in the tree. We came home and Pee Wee was still barking at this cat up in the tree. The cat was up in the tree sound asleep, not worried about anything. This dog's dog didn't know when to shut up anyway. It was kind of funny.   Kim Lengling ** 15:25 Well, dogs are amazing. My dog, when he is he's treed raccoons, all kinds of stuff, anything smaller than him, he takes off after he has he does have quite the prey drive. And I think that's the Belgian mountain wall coming out in him. Yeah, you know, pretty sure that's that part. And I've not been able to get him to stop that. But I'm in the country and, you know, okay, it is, it is what it is. It is what it is.   Michael Hingson ** 15:53 Well, so did you see much of the world when you were in the military?   Kim Lengling ** 15:56 I was actually all stateside, interestingly enough, yeah. Well, you saw the country then I did. I saw some of the country. So, yeah, I'm it's, it's an experience that I'm glad that I I had. What did you do? I did Morse code, actually. Okay, yeah. And it's funny, years ago I ran into, because this is quite some time ago, quite some time ago, and it was years ago I ran into a couple of younger Navy guys at a gas station. They were filling up their car, and I, of course, went up and thanked them for their service. And I had just come from a funeral, so I was in a military funeral, and I was part of the honor guard at that time, so I was in my honor guard uniform, and they're like, well, thank you for your service. What branch were you? And we're just chit chatting, you know, like folks do. And they said, Well, what did you do? What was your MOS and I told them, and they looked at each other, and their cheeks got red, and I said, What's What's so funny? And they said, Oh, ma'am, we don't use Morse code anymore. And I went, Oh, well, my goodness, when did they stop using it? And the one, the one kid, and they were kids, they were like, probably 18 to me. Anyway, they were at the time, 1819, years old. And the one looked at the other, and they said, Well, wait a minute. No, no, we did use it that one time. I remember there in the Navy, and they were on deployment out in the ocean, sea, wherever. And they said, no, no, there. Remember that one time that that old guy, he did use Morse code. He had, we had to use it because some part of the electrical went out. And I and they were, I looked at them and I went, when you say old guy, what? What do you mean by that? And their faces turned so red. And the one kid, he goes, Oh Ma'am, he must have been at least, oh geez, 37 and at that time I was like, 41 I just started laughing. And I said, well, he wasn't really all that old, you guys, but So yeah, that was a and so   Michael Hingson ** 18:02 what do they use now that they don't use Morse code? I honestly   Kim Lengling ** 18:05 don't know. I think everything is more electronic. And yeah, I mean, yeah, it's been so long since I've been it's been a while. It's been, it's been a decade or few.   Michael Hingson ** 18:15 Well, I learned Morse code to get my ham radio license, and I still remember it and and it, and it still is a means of communications that can sometimes break through when voice and other things don't come through. Absolutely,   Kim Lengling ** 18:29 absolutely no, yeah, and I don't remember a lot of it, probably just because I was so sick of hearing it. I don't, I actually don't remember a lot of it, but if needed, I could, oh yeah, touch up on it.   Michael Hingson ** 18:47 So how fast were you able to receive code? Um,   Kim Lengling ** 18:51 we had to, in order. We had to pass a certain what was it? 2222 words a minute. Okay, I think, I think we had to get 20 I think it was 22 in training when we had, when we were in tech school in order to progress. I think it was 22 Yeah, yeah. And that's fast for people who don't realize when all you're listening to is, did audit, yep. I mean and going 22 words a minute. It's it just sounds like   Michael Hingson ** 19:18 I went a friend of mine, who was also a ham operator, and I were talking one day, and he was telling me about this kid that he had met on the air, and they were both doing code, and he decided that since this kid was a kid, that he would play a trick on him. And he slowly started speeding up how fast he was sending the code, and I don't know how fast he got to and then the kid said, Oh, you want to play that game. And he just started going at like, about 60 or 65 words a minute, which means he was probably using an electronic key or a bug, but I don't   19:56 know, right? Because how would you do that with your fingers? Really? It would   Michael Hingson ** 19:59 be hard. But anyway, this kid was doing it, and the guy went, Okay, you got me.   Kim Lengling ** 20:07 So, yeah, amazing. I mean, it truly is amazing. It's, it's amazing, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 20:13 and, and it's, it's still a very relevant thing to to have in the arsenal if you need it ever. Oh, I agree. I agree. Yeah. So, so what did you do when you came back from being in the military for four years?   Kim Lengling ** 20:27 I came back to my small hometown and didn't do much for a bit. I was kind of a weird it was, it was, wasn't so easy transitioning home from to, you know, being in the military, to coming back to the hometown, because nothing felt right anymore, right? Well, you were in a different world, right? And I was a different person, yeah. And so I didn't stick. I didn't stay there very long. I got a job, you know, got a job, and then it was couple years later, I ended up marrying my high school sweetheart, and we, you know, got married, had got a little place, little house in a different town, and had my daughter. And, you know, did that became a wife and mom and, you know, did the working and being a wife and a mom and all of that stuff? So,   Michael Hingson ** 21:27 yeah, so do you still do that?   Kim Lengling ** 21:31 No, I am divorced. My daughter is mid 30s and married and has her own daughter. So I'm I'm actually a brand new grandma. Oh, there you go. And I am just loving it. I'm loving every second of it, but you don't have the husband anymore. No, no, it's me and Dexter, and that's just fine. Yeah, it's just fine. And so well, and that it's I've, I have found out, you know, it's interesting when you're a wife, a mom, you work full time, and then your life completely changes, and you're an empty nester, completely empty nest, and it's just you and the dog. You have to find out who you are again, yeah, and it was very interesting for me, because I was like, oh my goodness, I forgot who Kim was. So it was an interesting journey to find that out and to find out, you know, what did I even like to do? Because I was always running here, running there, doing this, doing that, family, kids, stuff, you know, all of the things, doing all the things. And then I was, you know, now I had time to figure out, what do I like to do, geez, what did I like to do? You know? So it was interesting. Spent. It was interesting the first few years figuring out who I was again and what I liked to do and what makes me, you know, what fulfills me and and, you know, to reach a point where I'm thriving in that, you know, it was interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 23:02 And what did you decide that you like to do?   Kim Lengling ** 23:07 I like writing, and I love doing and I love doing my podcast and volunteering I volunteer for with my veteran post, been doing that for over 25 years now, helping veterans in need, those folks that might need a little bit of help here and there, and then also, it's a project support our troops, which is a monthly thing we've been doing every month for 24 years, sending care packages to those men and women who are deployed around the globe so, and it's all done by donations. So that's, that's a lot, it's a lot of my time, and a lot of where my heart is is helping those folks. So I've been able to really, you know, put a lot into that, which is very fulfilling.   Michael Hingson ** 23:56 What made you decide that you really liked writing?   Kim Lengling ** 24:00 You know, it was years ago. When was it? Oh, gosh, close to 20 years. Oh, my goodness, a long, long time ago. About almost 20 years ago, I was asked to give a speech at a local veteran event. And it was a large veteran event. There's about 800 people there. I had never spoken in public before, and I was asked to give a speech. And I my step grandfather, so my stepfather, his dad, was the last surviving World War One veteran in my area. Ooh, and he passed away in 1997 and I thought, you know, I'm gonna talk about him. So I spent quite a bit of time with my step dad, and we went through his dad's stuff that he had brought home, and I learned all kinds of stuff about him and his time in World War One, and he was, he was the last man of the last man's Club. Job, and that was formed in themes France on Armistice Day, and the mayor of this small village in France had a bottle of wine and came out to the boys of Company B, literally, they were the boys of Company B from my town, and gave them this bottle of wine in celebration, you know, of the signing of the armistice, and the guys all decided they weren't going to drink it. They were going to keep it. And as time went on, it would pass to the next comrade, and whoever was the last man standing would be the one that has that bottle of wine, and he would then open it toast his fallen comrades. So the the last man's club is what they called it. And my step grandfather was the last man of the last man's club, and he passed away at the age of 104 Wow. And so I shared his story and the story of the last man's club. That was my speech. And it was, it was about a 15 minute speech, and for someone who'd never spoken in public before, and you know this, 15 minutes is a long time, can be a long time to talk in front of a group of people, and there were television cameras there, and it was just, it was overwhelming. But I got up there the first two minutes, my voice was shaking because I was a little nervous, and then I just fell into the story, because it's just a beautiful story. And when I was done, it was, there was, and I'm there, was about 800 people there. It was total silence. I mean, you could hear a pin drop, and I thought, oh my goodness, I just blew it. But then there was one, one person started clapping, and then another. And then the place like this was an outdoor event, they interrupted. They just went crazy, and people were crying, and the local newspaper came up to me. The local newspaper editor came up to me and said, Would you consider writing an article, you know, about veterans for the for the paper? And I said, Oh, my goodness, I'm no writer. And he goes, Well, who wrote your speech? And I said, Well, I did. And he goes, well, then you're a writer. And that was the little spark that that lit something up in me. Somebody saw something in me that I had never even considered looking for in myself. And so that was the little spark that got me going so   Michael Hingson ** 27:34 you hadn't really contemplated, contemplated writing before then,   Kim Lengling ** 27:38 no, not at all. And and and never, really, it had never entered my mind. And I started doing these monthly articles, and I was interviewing veterans. And I'm very I'm very connected with my local veteran community, and being a veteran myself, the veterans were pretty comfortable talking to me, and I, you know, I spoke to numerous former prisoners of war. Most of, most of who I interviewed over the years were combat veterans. A lot of them were Vietnam vet combat veterans, and hearing their stories. And first off, it was very humbling that they would even share them with me, yeah, because a lot of them won't or don't want to, or can't, you know, can't, yeah. And so for 14 years, I did that each month, and there were, I started getting a following, you know, I, you know, I'd run into because they, they would post a picture with me and my article in the paper each month, and I'd run into people, and they'd be like, Oh my gosh, you just brought me to tears with that article. And I just so enjoy reading your monthly stuff. And that's when, you know, I just I didn't know what I was doing. And when I look back at some of those nights, I'm like, Oh my gosh, Kim, you were such an awful, awful writer. But as time went on, I could, I learned. And then I just started doing some stuff online, finding free courses, and, you know, doing what I could, teaching myself a lot of stuff about writing and just how to make it better. And so that's, that's kind of, I just kept, I rolled with it. I just kept rolling with it. And now that I, the last five years, I've had the opportunity to actually work from home full time now and put a lot more of my time into writing, and I'm still learning. We all learn something. We're still, you know, we're all learning, hopefully, we're all learning something. And so, yeah, hopefully so I can see how my my writing has changed, how my voice has changed, and I just hope, I just hope I'm better than I was yesterday. That's what I hope each day, I'm a little bit better of a writer than I was yesterday, because hopefully I learned something new.   Michael Hingson ** 29:48 And that's fair, we have somewhat similar starts in the whole process. So for me, of course, September 11 happened, and um. The media got the story and like, about a week and a half after September 11. I don't remember exactly what day it was. It must have been around the 20th or so of of September, but I got a call on the phone, and this guy said he was the pastor of a church, and he had heard about me, and asked if I would come and speak at a church service they were going to hold. And I said, Well, I guess tell me more about him. He said, Well, we want to hold a church service for all the people who were lost in the World Trade Center who were from New Jersey. I said, Okay, that seems like a would be a worthwhile thing to do. And so we agreed to do it. And then kind of the last thing I asked him before hanging up was, how many people are going to be at this service? And he said, Well, it's going to be an outdoor service, and there'll be something over 5000 people. Now it's not that I hadn't spoken in unusual situations before, because being in sales, you never know where you're going to be on any given day, from a board of directors of a Wall Street firm to IT people or whatever, but still 5000 people, and that's a lot. And when I got there, I also learned that Lisa beamer was there. Now Lisa's husband, Todd, was the guy on flight 93 who said, let's roll. Let's roll. Yeah. And Lisa was not an animal lover, but she and Roselle hit it off, and so she she really and Roselle was my guide dog in the World Trade Center. So they had a thing going, which was kind of cool, but the speech wasn't overly long. It was only supposed to be about six or seven minutes, and it was, and that is really what got me started down the road of doing public speaking. Then the next year, we were at an event where I met the publisher of the AKC Gazette, and George said, You should write a book. I said, I've never thought of writing a book, and it took eight years to get it done and get the right combination, including someone to collaborate with, because I wasn't really all that familiar with writing. But anyway, we wrote thunder dog, and it got published in 2011 became a New York Times bestseller. So that was pretty cool. But, you know, circumstances do offer us opportunities, and it's important to really take them when you can. And so we you and I have both done that in various ways, yeah,   Kim Lengling ** 32:35 and it's interesting when you look back to see how things unfold. Mm, hmm, you know, and you had mentioned that you were in sales, and that's my background, 25 years of sales and marketing. So it's and I've talked to I've talked Well, I'm sure you have too as well. Many, many authors, and a lot of them have some sort of sales or marketing in their background. Have you found that to be true as well? I   Michael Hingson ** 32:59 have, and especially today, you have to, because the publishers aren't doing nearly as much as they used to to promote books, and they want the authors to do a lot more. And I think that the publishers, some of the publishers, could do more than they're doing, but they because they rely on social media and so on. But there's a lot more to it than that. But unfortunately, that's not what they do. So, you know, you you cope with what you got. That's   Kim Lengling ** 33:26 right, that's right, you know. And I found that a lot of the the larger publishing houses, and even some of the mid sized ones, in order for them to even take you on, you have to have a certain number of followers, or whatever it is on your combined social media platforms, yeah, and so many authors don't, don't.   Michael Hingson ** 33:53 And you know, we're not   Kim Lengling ** 33:54 all out there being influencers, you know, yeah, but   Michael Hingson ** 33:57 you also have to make the commitment to promote, and so absolutely, so we do and it, and it's, it's part of what needs to be done. And I don't mind, and I understand the concept of an author has to be part of what promotes their book. They they shouldn't rely totally on the publisher, and that's fine, but I do think that publishers could do more than they do a lot of times to help today, that social media is the thing. Well, it's not the only thing, and you miss out on a lot, on a lot, by just dealing with social media,   34:34 right? That's where a good publicist comes in.   34:37 Yeah.   Kim Lengling ** 34:41 Yeah, yeah, that's, that's helpful, but no, yeah. And I, well, I enjoy doing the but it's so it's almost a full time job marketing. Just, it is, you know, it's, it's a lot of work. And, you know, I, I'm self published. I didn't go the, the traditional publishing route. I. And knowing, you know, regardless, I would still be doing the same amount of work that I'm doing if I went the traditional route, right? Because I'd still have to do a majority, or, if not, all, of my own promotion, which I don't mind. I enjoy doing that, because then I actually get to meet, yes, a lot of interesting people.   35:22 You know, people it   Kim Lengling ** 35:24 is, and the people that have been put in front of me, you know, like yourself, you know, we made a connection, and now I'm here a guest on your show, and you're going to be a guest on mine. I mean, how cool is that? So, you know, you get to meet people that might have nothing to do with your book. It's just, it's just cool to you know, humanity, to meet, to meet other good, decent people is a good thing.   Michael Hingson ** 35:49 It is by, by any standard, right? You primarily today write fiction. So what got you down the road of writing fiction or non actually, non fiction, non fiction, non fiction,   Kim Lengling ** 36:01 that it was. It was all of the interviewing that I did with the veterans, you know, keeping keep into the the personal stories. I really enjoyed that I I enjoy it, and being able to not only write the story, but pull that emotion from it too. And I found that at first it was somewhat intimidating, because I'm thinking, how can I, how can I get these in words on paper, where people are going to feel what I'm feeling right now listening to this gentleman, yeah, you know. And it just that that kind of fascinated me, and that's what made me want to keep on writing and learning how to do it better. And so I just stuck with it. So I, yeah, I've not written anything fiction   Michael Hingson ** 36:50 at all. One of the things that I I find is that what makes I think good, successful writers, l will deal with non fiction right now, but is to be yourself. So when you interviewing people, your personal self has to come through, not in in the in an opinion way, but just how you are able to portray the people who you're talking with. And interviewing it comes out so much better if you really can feel it, which is again, getting back to your, your being yourselves,   Kim Lengling ** 37:26 right? Yes, I think, yeah, being authentic, yeah, just, you know, I've had, I don't know if you've had folks on your show that I've had a few that I was the first podcast they were ever on, and they were quite nervous. And I said, Well, you know, before I even hit that record button, you know, I don't mind sitting here chit chatting for a bit, so, you know, you feel a little bit more at ease. And it just took without fail, my guests have said, you know, Kim, thank you for being such a welcoming host, and you made this fun. And, you know, there's no, because there's no pretense with me. You know, it's, it's, I'm come as I am. I'm not all, you know, I don't get all my hair is not done. I don't have a bunch of makeup on or anything like that. It's, you know, you can't. This is Kim. This is me. This is who I am every day. And, you know, hey, let's sit down and have a cup of coffee. That's that's how I try and, you know, get my guests at ease, you know. And I'm sure that you've had guests that have probably been kind of nervous, maybe it's their first time on a show or something. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 38:31 one of the things that I do, though, and I really have found that it works very well to do this, is before I have a guest on the actual podcast, I want to sit down with them and have a half hour conversation where we get to know each other. So I insist that anyone who wants to come on to unstoppable mindset has to spend some time with me ahead of time, and that way, when I find people who aren't familiar with podcasts, or, you know, they say, Well, I'd love to come on, but I don't know what to talk about. We can talk about it, and we can, we can get them to relax and recognize that they do have a story to tell, and what we want to do is to to hear their story, and they don't need to worry about being uptight, because there, there are no set rules that you have to do this or you fail. It's all about really enjoying what you do and just being willing to talk about it.   Kim Lengling ** 39:32 Yeah, and that's, that's an awesome idea. And I know a lot of podcast hosts do that. I have not I, and I don't know why. I've never really come up with a reason why I haven't had, you know, just that sit down chat 1520 minutes prior, you know, maybe a week before the show, or whatever. I've just, I've just not done that. I don't know. I we usually end up talking 10 to 15 minutes prior to me hitting record. Um, there's only, I really had one instance with one guest. And. Was a couple years ago where we did chit chat. And as we were chit chatting, it was that at that point I thought I should probably do pre screening, yeah, and I, I, we went through with the show, and I pre record everything, yeah, so I did cut it short, and I never published it. It was that was the one and only time that ever happened. This person never got back to me, never said, when's this going to be out? It was just such an uncomfortable chat. And I was thinking, wow, on paper, this person was a completely different person than when I'm actually talking, yeah, so, and it wasn't in line with anything of what we had discussed. So it was, it was, that was interesting. That's only in four years that's only happened one time, and that was one day when I thought I really should do pre screen.   Michael Hingson ** 40:59 Well, I've had, I've had two. One the we did the podcast, and this person just had no effect to their voice. And as much as I talked ahead of time about I want to hear your story and all that, he just couldn't tell a story. Oh, yeah. And so that one didn't get published, and then another one I did, and I thought it was a great podcast, but the person said, I absolutely do not want this published. I just decided that that I don't want to do it. And   Kim Lengling ** 41:35 I had one like that after we had recorded and everything, and I thought I too for and they it was like three days later, because I said, Well, it's going to be up and uploaded probably two to three weeks from now. It's like two or three days later. They said, You know, I've changed my mind. I don't want my story out there at all. Yeah, there was fear in theirs. There was fear involved. Yeah, there was, there was   Michael Hingson ** 41:55 clearly fear, um, with my person as well. Oh, yeah. And they got very, very nasty about it when I said, Look, it really is a good podcast. So, you know, I'm not going to, I don't want to have people and make people do things they don't want to do. I've had several people who have said, well, I want to hear the podcast before it goes out and and I'll say to that, no, it's a conversation, and I don't edit it. So the whole idea is that if there's any editing, it's just to deal with getting noise out of it and all that. But only that doesn't happen. But, you know, and people accept that, but again, it's fear. But the reality is that I believe everyone has a story to tell, and I believe that everyone, if they're willing to do it, should tell their story, because it will show other people that they're not any different, and we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. And that's the whole point of the podcast.   42:58 No, that's I agree. I agree 100%   Michael Hingson ** 43:02 Well, tell us. Tell me about some of the non fiction books that you've written. Tell me a little bit about what you've done and and so I just   Kim Lengling ** 43:08 had, I just had one released last week, actually called nuggets of hope. And that one has been in the works for a couple years, and it started with not me thinking about turning anything into a book. It was, it just started with the word hope. Showed up everywhere, everywhere, and I felt very strongly that I was supposed to be doing something with it. And I ended up getting polished stones with the word hope engraved on them, and carrying those with me. And I thought, Okay, I think I'm supposed to be giving nuggets of hope to people and but I wasn't sure how to do that, but I had this very strong nudge that I was meant to be doing this. And so that began a couple years ago. And I would just approach people who I would see, you know, I'm out running errands, doing my thing, and I would just someone would catch my eye, and I would feel very strongly nudged. Be like that person needs a nugget of hope. And I would just approach and say, Excuse me, ma'am, or sir, I would like to give you a nugget of hope today, and without fail, and I've been doing this for a couple years, so I've been handing out quite a few my little stones. And without fail, every single person I've approached has has put their hand out to accept that, and I get a hope and from a total stranger just coming up to them. You know, it's, it's amazing. And the reactions that I've had have just been, you know, there's been tears, there's been laughter, nervous laughter. There's been funny looks like, Who are you crazy woman approaching me? Um, I've had people hug me and I had one older gentleman yell at me in anger and swear at me in Walmart, and, you know, ask me very loudly, what the hell did he have to hope for? And but he took the nugget of hope and put it in his pocket. Yeah, and I knew in that moment with that, that particular gentleman had nothing to do with me and he was in his probably had to have been in his late 80s. So I don't know what was gone in his life, but I do firmly believe, even to this day, that I was meant to be in front of him at that moment in time and give him a nugget of hope, a nugget of hope. Yeah, I firmly believe that. And I don't know, you know, when our interaction was done, he was still an angry man, and that's okay, because I didn't let it land on me, because it wasn't supposed to. It wasn't directed at me. And I got in my car, and I actually did cry. I sat in my car with my head on my steering wheel, crying for that man, because my heart hurt for him. And I thought, you know, what? If he's what if he just lost his wife, and he has no idea. And because he was yelling at me about not knowing what dish soap to get, he couldn't find the kind that he needed. And I thought, maybe, you know, he just, he had just lost his wife, yeah, and she always used a particular soap, and he couldn't find it, and that was what put him over. Maybe he's a full time caregiver for a family member, you know, maybe a white, I don't know, Alzheimer's, what have you. Maybe he was just coming off of a very long illness, and he's on his own, a widower, whatever, because he was, he was late 80s, at least, and looked very, very, very tired. And my heart just hurt. My heart just hurt for him. And I thought, You know what, he might have been yelling and swearing at me, and that is perfectly okay, but I'm going to sit here and pray for him. I'm going to pray for peace and for grace to just envelope him, you know, just be covered in it, and maybe when he wakes up tomorrow and he goes to grab all that stuff from the hallway table and put back in his pocket, he'll look down and see that yeah, and maybe then it'll be like, oh, you know. Or maybe, maybe not. Maybe it would be a week, maybe a month, whatever. But I firmly believe in my heart that at some point he was going to see that, and it would   Michael Hingson ** 47:24 click, and you haven't seen him since, I assume, no, it's   Kim Lengling ** 47:27 total stranger. I don't know these people, you know. And there was one time I have these, I got little cards made too, because, well, these stones are pretty expensive, actually. So I got little cards made too, just tiny, little square cards, and it says, share a nugget of hope today. And on the back, it says, The world is a better place because you're in it. And I had some of those because I had forgotten to put stones in my pocket, and I had a couple of those cards in my purse. And I was in a store just picking, you know, doing errands, and I was walking by some sweaters, and I thought, I'm going to put one of these little cards in a pocket of that sweater and just put it in. Didn't think anything of it. Several days later, I got a message through Facebook from a young lady saying, I don't know if this is the person who left a card in a sweater, but if you are, I want to thank you for leaving this little nugget of hope in that sweater, because I've been struggling with my weight for a very long time, and I had an event to attend, and I was looking for a sweater that would help make me feel better. And she didn't notice that that little card that said, be a nugget of hope today, the world's a better place because you're in it. She didn't notice it until she was home putting the sweater on again to try it on in front of her mirror. And she said, if that was if the person that I'm reaching right now is the person who left that card, I want to thank you for doing that, and I also want to let you know I'm going to keep this card, and when I feel so LED. I'm going to tuck it into a pocket somewhere in a store too, and hopefully someone else will get it, and they will, they will receive it as as I received mine. And I was just like, Oh my goodness.   Michael Hingson ** 49:12 You know, ever since thunder dog was published, I get emails. They're they're sporadic somewhat, but I get emails from people who have said how this book inspired or how I learned so much. And you know, as far as I am concerned, I am better for all of the comments that I get. I learned from everyone who decides to reach out in one way or another, and I encounter people in very, very unusual circumstances. I was in Dallas Fort Worth airport one day, and this guy comes up to me, and he said, You're Mike Kingston. You just wrote thunder dog, and I want to shake your hand, and I want to take you to lunch. And I had time. So. Did go to lunch and I and I never had met the guy before, but he had read thunder dog, and it obviously made a difference to him. So I think, as I said, every time I hear from someone, I believe it makes me a better person. It teaches me that when we put out words or seeds in the field, or whatever you want to call it, that you never know where they're going to plant and thrive. But if that's what I'm supposed to do, then I'm glad I'm doing it.   Kim Lengling ** 50:36 I feel exactly the same, and I like how you said you were it you said each, each comment that you get makes, makes you a better person, and that that's so profound, and it's, it's humbling, isn't it? When you get comments like that, or people approach you and say something that, you know, it was inspiring, or that motivated me, or, you know, wow, that's something I really needed. I mean, it's, it's very for me anyway, it's very humbling. I had an older lady. I was helping her put her groceries in her car. It's just, I just randomly saw her, you know, struggling, and I had a nugget of hope in my hand too, of course. So I went up and I, you know, said, I'd like to give you a nugget of hope, and I'd also like to help you put your groceries in your car. And we got done doing that, and she looked down at the nugget of hope in her hand, and she got all teary eyed, and gave me a big hug, and she said, You are my absolute angel today. You have no idea how much I needed this. And I went, I'm so grateful that, that you're the one that's receiving this, and that you you know that, that you need it. She goes, but I said, but I am no angel. I am no angel. And she said, she's, you know, she just kind of chuckled, and, you know, said, No, you have, you just have no idea. You have no idea what this means to me today. And I didn't ask, because it's none of my business, yeah, you know, I just, I wished her a blessed day, and I went back to my car, and I sat there, and I sat there, and there was another time I actually cried. I was like, oh my goodness, this is what I think I'm, you know, I'm supposed to be doing this random stuff. And it's not random, obviously, but I don't know it's, it's profound, and it hits you, and I'm sure that that's, yeah, probably your book has probably done the same. Your book is a nugget of hope. You know, to many people, I'm sure,   Michael Hingson ** 52:22 I hope it is. I didn't, I didn't write it to do anything other than to try to encourage people and motivate people and teach people a little bit. And I guess it's done all of those things. So I can't complain.   Kim Lengling ** 52:34 No, it's awesome. It's great. And what a beautiful What a beautiful legacy, you know, because that's always going to be out there. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 52:43 Well, you wrote a New Britain or been the lead on a number of anthologies. And I think three of your books are in the series. When Grace found me, tell me about that series. Those   Kim Lengling ** 52:53 started that was in 2020, actually, when the world shut down. Yes, and I was online, and I found an online writers group. It was all women, and the majority of them were from England. And so I was like, the minority being the American. And I met a beautiful lady online, and she had just started up a faith based publishing company. And so her and I were like, hey, you know, let's chat afterwards. And so we set up a zoom and chatted afterwards for a while. And I said, you know, I've had this idea. I've got a few stories in my head, but I would love to get other people's stories. You know about, you know, when Grace found them, and we were just chatting about grace, and she said, Well, let's figure out how to make this work. And so her and I actually start to together. Started those when Grace found me series, and we asked a few people, and then it kind of snowballed, because it was just going to be one, just going to be one book, 20 people done, once it reached 20, and we're like, oh, this, you know, we've got enough for a book. They're 1500 words each. The stories, they're beautiful. Let's do it. But then word of mouth got out somehow, online, and people kept coming forward. Well, I would like to participate, and I have a story, and it turned in. It went from one book to three books, and 2020, co authors in each book. And we, we published all of those within 12 months. Wow. It was so much work, so much work. But those, those stories, oh, my goodness, the the comments that we got after they were out, you know? And she, she's just started her little, tiny, little publishing company, and it was just, it was just amazing. What an amazing experience. And then I, you know, two years ago, I and I truly enjoy bringing folks together to share their stories, and I enjoy, you know, collaborating and coordinating all of these. And. And so the the last two have been paw prints on the couch and paw prints on the kitchen floor. And those are anthologies all about pets. You know, people are sharing their their stories about their pets and how they've enriched their lives or changed their lives or saved their lives, you know? And it's, it's just rewarding to me, and it's also fun to give folks that maybe have never written before, that chance to say I'm published in a book, you know? Because that's pretty exciting stuff for folks. And some folks are like, I've never aspired to be a writer, and I don't want to be, but I do want to share my story in this book. Yeah, you know. So it's been fun, and oh my goodness, I learned, I learned how to publish. You know, like I said, I like to learn. So I've learned so much about publishing and formatting and how to corral all the people that are involved in the book.   Michael Hingson ** 55:57 Have you? Have you converted any of them to audiobooks,   Kim Lengling ** 56:00 no, and I need to do that. I just don't have the funds to do that at this time. That's that's not something that's cheap, and I'm not set up to do it myself. I don't have the right I have the equipment, but I don't think it would be the quality that I want it to be if I did it myself, and I just don't have the funds to do that, and I would, I would love to do it for the paw prints books, both of them, for sure. And I'm considering do, because everybody's going, you have to, when's the third one coming out? And I said I wasn't really planning on and they're going, you have two, you have to do at least three, and then make it a series. So I was actually talking to a couple people today about it, and they're encouraging me to do a third one. So I probably will, you know, so that would come out next year sometime. But I don't know. I would like to, I would like to get audio books of all of them. I just have to reach a point where I'm able to do that and make it what's professionally done.   Michael Hingson ** 57:03 Yeah, yeah. AI is getting better, but I'm not sure that it's really there yet for doing recording of audio books, unless you've got a whole lot of equipment and can do various   Kim Lengling ** 57:15 things. I've played around listening to some of the different voices and stuff, and the inflect, the inflection just isn't there, yeah, I know, yeah. Some of them sound pretty good, but you don't get the correct pauses. And you know, you know what I mean. It just, you can tell, it's like, oh, that sounds pretty good. And then you're like, Ah, no, right there, nope, that just blew it.   Michael Hingson ** 57:38 Yeah? I I agree, and I fully understand. Well, so you've written non fiction? Is there a fiction book in your future?   Kim Lengling ** 57:47 I have one in my head, and it's been in there for several years, and it's been getting louder so and I've talked to other fiction writers, and they're going, okay, when you've got characters in your head and they're getting louder. That means you are supposed to be writing this book. Yeah. So this year, and we're almost done with this year, it the characters, and it's kind of kind of fantasy, kind of ish, young adult ish. I don't even know what it is yet, but I've got the characters in my head. I know what they look like. I know what they sound like. And, you know, there's wood sprites are involved, you know, wood sprites and animals are involved, heavily involved. They are the main characters of the story. So, yeah, I every once in a while, I sit down and I'll write, you know, maybe four or 500 words of it, and then I walk away. But I want to, they're getting louder. The characters are getting louder, so I need to sit down and just go, Kim,   Michael Hingson ** 58:50 let's get going. No, that's not why it's going to work. What's I know you're going to sit down and they're going to say, Kim, we're writing this book, right? Most characters are going to write the book   Kim Lengling ** 58:59 right. They're going to tell me what they're doing and what they're saying, that's for sure. And   Michael Hingson ** 59:03 you're in, you're going to do it, or they're going to get even louder,   Kim Lengling ** 59:08 you know? And it's, it's so interesting because I remember the first time I was talking to a fiction author, and they said my characters got so loud in my head, I didn't quite grasp what they were saying, but I found it fascinating, and now I understand what they were saying, yeah,   59:26 yeah. And   Kim Lengling ** 59:27 I joking, you know, I laugh. It's not joking. I laugh about it because they're like, Well, what? What do you have one character that's louder than the others? I said, Yes, and it's a female, and she's Irish,   Michael Hingson ** 59:38 there you are. So she's   59:39 yelling in her Irish accent.   Michael Hingson ** 59:42 You better listen, I haven't had that happen to me yet, so I haven't done a fiction book, but I'm sure the time is going to come and and we'll, we'll have fun with it. But when   Kim Lengling ** 59:55 it's I did, I wasn't expecting it to happen. It just it's there. There it   Michael Hingson ** 59:59 is. It. Exactly right, and that's been the case with with everything that I've done, especially over the past 23 years. And you know, I think it will happen more. I never thought I was going to be doing a podcast, but when the pandemic occurred, I started to learn about it, and then began working with accessibe, which is a company that makes products that help make the internet more inclusive and accessible for people with a lot of disabilities, and they asked me to do a podcast because I said I was learning about podcasting, and suddenly I've been doing unstoppable mindset now for over three years, and it's a lot of fun.   Kim Lengling ** 1:00:33 But you know, that's how my podcast started. Was in 2020 Yeah, we have an awful lot in common. Michael, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:44 well, we should collaborate on books, then that'll be the next thing.   Kim Lengling ** 1:00:48 Absolutely, I am open for that works for me. Awesome. You tell me when and where, and we'll I'll sit down and chat. We can brainstorm about it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:57 I'm ready any old time. Me too. And there you have it, friends, the beginning of a new relationship, and another book that will come out of it. And you heard it here first, on unstoppable mindset, that's right, it's now thrown out there. It is out there for the world to to see and hear. Well, I want to really thank you for being with us. We've been doing this an hour, and it's just has gone by, like priest lightning, and now we have next week on on your podcast, and that's going to be kind of fun.   1:01:27 Yeah, I'm looking forward to it really   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:31 me too, and, and I'm sure that Alamo is going to want to listen in over here. He's He's over here on his bed, and he if I close the door when I always close the door when I do the podcast, because otherwise the cat will invade and stitch wants attention when she wants attention. But if I close the door and Alamo is not in here, then he wants attention, or at least he wants in. So I always have to let Alamo in, but stitch doesn't need to be here. I've done one podcast where she sat on the top of my desk chair during the whole podcast,   Kim Lengling ** 1:02:07 I've had guests where their cat, they said, Do you mind? I said, No, I don't mind. I love animals. Their cat the entire time was walking across the desk in front of them the whole time. So the tail the entire time was just going back and forth. It was so comical. But then, you know, you're just like, We're just two people sitting at a kitchen table having coffee. That's how I like. That's   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:28 right. Well, stitch will come in occasionally, and if I let her, if I bring her in and I put her on the back of the desk chair, she'll stay there. And so she likes that. If she gets restless, then I've told her, You can't be too restless and you can't one out in the middle of a podcast. You're either here or you're not. Mostly she's agreeable. I want to thank you again for being here. This has been fun, and one of these days, we'll get out to Pennsylvania and visit. Or you can come out this way somehow. But I want to thank you for being here. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:08 Easiest way is to just go to my website, which is my name, Kim Lengling, author.com, that's K, I M, L, E N, G, l, I N, G. Author.com, you can find out what I'm doing

I have never had the pleasure of having a guest quite like Michele Blood. While still living in Australia Michele was an extremely successful rock singer. One day she was involved in a serious accident while being driven to a gig. Her body was, as she says, quite battered and damaged. What is fascinating about Michele's story is how she discovered the value of positive affirmations that she used to heal everything. As she will tell us, it is not just saying affirmations, but rather it is truly believing what you affirm. Her music became an integral of what healed her.   Since her recovery Michele has traveled the world singing and speaking on stage with many well-known motivational and thought leaders. I leave it to her to tell the story.   During our episode Michele will sing one of her affirmation songs. I hope you are as moved by the song in specific and by Michele's attitude and mindset in general. She teaches us a lot that can have nothing but positives effects on your life.   I look forward to hearing what you have to say about my time with Michele. Don't forget to get her free gifts available only to listeners of the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Is that cool or what?       About the Guest:   Michele Blood is a successful, multi-talented lady. Michele was a successful songwriter and rock singer in Australia and after a near-fatal car accident, while in the hospital with many serious injuries, she created positive Affirmation Songs which not only healed her body but also took her to worldwide success. These Affirmation songs affect the left and right hemispheres of the brain. Lyrics, the left hemisphere, and melody and music, the right hemisphere so the new, positive messages go straight to the subconscious mind. This is why millions of people worldwide have downloaded her Affirmation Power songs. These songs cover healing, success, money, joy, confidence and they uplift the person immediately.   In addition to creating Magnet To Success™ products and seminars worldwide, her public Mystical Success Events have been held in over 26 countries. Michele has co-written and created over 80 books, music CDs, audio programs, TV shows, and videos on positive thought, mind transformation, and meditation.   Michele has appeared in many hundreds of podcasts, radio/tv shows, and magazines globally. After many years of meditation, Michele's Kundalini awakened and transformed her consciousness. Michele now teaches others how to live a Successful Life and experience Divine Oneness. Her Mystical Experience webinars and live streams have assisted people globally to transform their lives to the positive. Through her Teachings and Light Transmissions, people awaken and experience what they say is the impossible. They awaken to their true purpose and begin their path to Enlightenment. She has shared the stage and worked with Bob Proctor, Dr. Deepak Chopra, Dr. Wayne Dyer, Jack Canfield, and many other transformational Authors and Teachers. Her latest book is The Magic Of Affirmation Power and her latest album is Create Miracles: Positive Affirmation Songs To Harmonize your Mind and Life. And her new Magnet To Money App will uplift millions worldwide.   Ways to connect with Michele:   https://www.MicheleBlood.com and https://www.YouTube.com/MicheleBlood   Michele would also love to gift your viewers and listeners her audiobook, "The Magic Of Affirmation Power" Your audience can download this free gift by going to: https://www.MicheleBlood.com/UnstoppableMindset   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected, which is really the most fun part, meet today. We are getting close to winter, and I was just telling our guest Michele Blood that here in Victorville, we had a temperature this morning of 28 degrees. Ah, lovely weather, and all the weather people complain about now it's getting cold in the summer, they complained it was getting hot. You know, you can't please them. I don't know what to say. But anyway, one of these days they'll, they'll decide that whatever happens is is not a bad thing, and they'll stop complaining, I guess. But any Yeah. But anyway, Michele, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Thank you.   Michele Blood ** 02:06 Michael, I've been so looking forward to this. After reading thunder dog, I'm going to be reading the second book, which is live like a guide dog. I'm going to be reading that after that, I absolutely adore this book, which I'm showing right now, Thunder dog. It's the most inspirational you can't put down. I mean, the lot not just getting down 78 floors of the Twin Towers, 78 stairs. I mean, oh my gosh. But then everything that you've done in between working with you know Ray Kurzweil, who's done a lot of things in the music industry as well. I mean, I mean, I recognized his name straight away. I'm like, all the all the things you've done. I'm just so impressed by and by your life and how inspiring you are. And I just wanted to say that to everybody, he's just, you gotta get his thunder dog book if you haven't yet, and his new book, live like a guide dog, for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 03:02 I I don't know. I haven't totally kept up, but I haven't heard that anybody has yet come out with a music synthesizer that is better than the Kurzweil synthesizer. Now, a lot has happened, and maybe technology has advanced, but I hadn't heard about anything that still beats it.   Michele Blood ** 03:20 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the fair light was pretty amazing when that first came out, but the Kurzweil, I mean, all any rock musician knows about, yeah, when, when that was first put out, we were just like, oh my gosh, that's amazing, you know, because you could sample sounds and, you know, it was just   Michael Hingson ** 03:39 incredible, and it had a choir built into it. Yeah? Daylight though   Michele Blood ** 03:43 that was, I don't know, think back back in the day, it was like 100 grand, so that's probably why it wasn't as popular. Yeah,   03:51 a little more   Michael Hingson ** 03:52 expensive than the Kurzweil one. Yeah, yeah, our organist at our church where my wife and I went in Irvine and where we got married, our organist had a Kurzweil synthesizer and used it a lot, which was, which was kind of fun, and it was, it was very and it is very impressive all the way around, yeah, but   Michele Blood ** 04:13 just the innovative things that have been done, and you're helping ray with all of the things for the blind as well. Working with Stevie Wonder. I mean, it's just, you're very impressive. You're an inspiration. You are, you are absolutely amazing.   Michael Hingson ** 04:28 Well, thank you. But now let's talk about you a little bit. And you know, you can, you can.   04:35 I didn't show them the cover yet. You can   Michael Hingson ** 04:38 spread any rusty live like a guide dog. Live   04:42 like a guide dog. Needs to cover everybody   Michael Hingson ** 04:45 well, I hope people will get it. I'm we're excited about it. It's been out now a few months. It seems to be selling. We're excited. So hopefully people will read it, and it inspires people a little bit, because it's all about. Are trying to get people to learn to control fear and not let it overwhelm or, as I put it, blind you. But anyway, tell us a little bit about you. Why don't you start with the the early Michele, growing up, and some of those kinds of things, just kind of introduce us to you a little bit.   Michele Blood ** 05:16 Well, I'm an Aussie G'day, everyone. G'day, and, in Australia, I started in the entertainment industry at the age of five, on TV. What   Michael Hingson ** 05:27 did you do? Singing? Oh, okay,   Michele Blood ** 05:31 you know. And then eventually got my, you know, had lots and lots of rock bands I sang in, until eventually I got my own rock band that became very successful. I was the lead singer, one of the main songwriters and the manager of the band. We got a great record label. We had 1000s of people coming to our gigs, and it took years to get there, but I loved it so much, even though it's very, very tough at one stage, we toured for seven years, non stop. I mean, no Christmases, no New Year's eves, because when you're in a rock band, you get paid triple on New Year's Eves and Christmases and stuff like that. Yeah, and you can't really say no until you're really huge. You can't really say no to any gig, because you need the money road crew and sound equipment trucks and all the rest of it so but I feel that my life went on a whole new trajectory after a near fatal truck accident, actually, where I was a passenger with the truck, with all the equipment, and my body was so badly broken, I was In the hospital for months and months and months and and that was the best thing that ever happened to me. I know that sounds crazy everybody, but truly, when you have something so terrible happen to you, and it gets turned around by the Divine, whatever you choose to call God, it gets your life gets turned around and it makes all the difference in the world. So that's the first quarter.   Michael Hingson ** 07:08 Well, you know, I'm really curious. You said something that just strikes a question. I know that a lot of people try to go into entertainment, and most probably aren't overly successful. But why do you think that you were so successful? What what made the rock group and and what you did so successful? Do you have a notion? Well,   Michele Blood ** 07:30 I loved what I did. I was very, very good at it. And not everyone that's good at it's probably other singers in the world that are better than me. But the reason, I think because, I mean, I had some backing vocals on some records, and these female singers were incredible. And one of them said, I know you've got a good voice, Michelle, but I don't know why it's you and not me. And I said, I think it's just that I never gave up, and I was really disciplined. And I, you know, I wasn't on the road of sex, drugs and rock and roll. I was on the road of discipline, making sure that all my band members were disciplined. We worked really, really hard. We rehearsed a lot. We never blew out a gig, not once. So you get a good reputation. And so I started as a cover band, and we would sound just like the records at the time of the 80s. You know, people said that was a band. It sounded like a record. And so then we, we eventually started putting all our originals in and, I mean, I did crazy things, Michael, I went into Time Warner to the A and R people, because I wasn't getting any feedback. It's really hard. You can't just send them a tape to get you know for them to listen to your demos. So I went in as a tap dancing singing telegram. And so the secretary let me go straight into the office, and it was a board meeting, and because she thought, you know, their family had so I was there with flowers and a cake and my ghetto blaster, and I said, Then I did a tap dance, and I made up this song about, you know, this is, this is the band called clapping hands. You're going to sign them, you're going to want them. And this is a singing telegram saying, Listen to this. And that's how I got my first record deal.   Michael Hingson ** 09:24 Creativity counts for something. It   Michele Blood ** 09:25 sure does. You've gotta have guts. And I mean, I by the time I walked out of that office, though I was sweating, I was shaking, but you have to do something to be noticed. And and I think because I love people so much, and because I'd been singing professionally since I was five, which means I was singing for family members and everyone since I was two, apparently getting being put on the kitchen table. And I loved people being happy, and I love loved entertaining. I just loved it. So I think, you know, it's in the stars as. Well, I know that, but I think discipline, hard work eventually never giving up. Yeah, what can I say? Never giving up.   Michael Hingson ** 10:08 Did you so you were a cover band for for a while, which meant you were the the opening band for other groups,   Michele Blood ** 10:17 not as a cover band, well, with the opening act for the pretenders and in excess and a few other bands, when we were an original band and when we had a record label, right, when we had videos on TV, but before that, now we do five to 645, minute sets a night, and we would stay at one big venue, because in back in the day in Australia, the venues were huge for cover bands. You know, four to 6000 people could come in, and we got, we got very, very popular as a cover band, and then we went original. But it took a few years to do that, for sure, but   Michael Hingson ** 10:55 I remember, I remember bands back in the 50s and 60s, like the platters, who actually were the opening band, or they were the band that were the background for other singers. And then somebody discovered these guys really are better than that, and then they became their own group, right?   Michele Blood ** 11:14 Yeah, yeah. It's interesting how, how it all works out. But in Australia, it's, it's a tough way to tour when you're a female singer, because the Aussies are pretty tough. If they don't like you, you can get B canes thrown at you.   Michael Hingson ** 11:32 Yeah, well, those kinds of things do happen. Yes, they did in Boston for for sports teams. I've heard of fans really being very brutal to like the the Patriots. I think when Steve Grogan was the quarterback, they actually booed him off the field once. It was pretty amazing. I don't know. You know that's people take some of these things way too seriously. They   Michele Blood ** 12:00 certainly do. I like what Oscar Wilde said, Life is too serious to be taken seriously. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:09 yeah, absolutely, and, but people still do it way too much. Which is, which is, which is a problem. Yes, you know, we need people to take life more like Mark Twain and Will Rogers, by all means, but I can co so you, you had a serious car accident, and as you said, It really broke your body. Tell us what you'd like to about that and and then how you dealt with it, because that, that was quite a, I won't say miraculous. That was quite a marvel. You. You certainly took a leap along the way with that.   Michele Blood ** 12:50 Yeah, it's such a unique story. Um, after you know the truck driver we've been driving for 12 hours from Brisbane to Sydney, from gig to keep and he fell asleep at the wheel just as we reached Sydney, which happened to be right across the road from the best orthopedic specialist hospital in Sydney. So thank you, God, you know. Yeah, there's no coincidences. There's no accidents. So they got me over there really fast, and they had me straight into the operating theater straight away. So, I mean, I had tons of different operations, but what happened was, when you're in physics, that much physical agony, you pass out every few minutes. Mm, hmm, and, but I had people and fans and family putting on audio programs of things I'd never heard of before, Affirmations, Visualization, positive stuff, audio books by motivational speakers, inspirational speakers who I'd never heard of, but one of them got to me, and that was a book by a man called Napoleon Hill who wrote a book called Think and Grow Rich. Grow Rich, right? And I didn't care about hearing about all the millionaires in the 1920s in America, male men. Why would a female, young Australian rock singer care about that? But one chapter in there, he talks about how his infant son was born deaf, and he would go into his infant son's room every single night and do affirmations, auto suggestion, you hear perfectly. You are so loved, and you are so loving, etc, etc. And by the time a little boy was nearly four, he had 30% of his hearing. And you know when you hear something, I've never heard of this before, Michael, but you know when you hear something for the first time and you can feel it that it's true. You've just heard something that you know in the marrow of your bones that that what you've just heard is true. So I said, Okay, I can, I can run. Relate to that, because I know that I've used my willpower and my positive thinking, My I've never said I can't do something, I can't have that drama that I want. I've never said that. I've always said it's all possible. Everything is possible. You just go for it. Michelle, and I'd always just go for it. And I was brought up a Catholic, and I wasn't brought up. I wasn't one of those people that hated the church. I loved it. So I always had a belief in God, because I used to go to mass as a little girl every morning with the nuns, because I was in love with Jesus, and I just felt so I had that spirituality in me, and I think that is what is the backbone. You know, in the Bible, it says you do not need to be strong, because Christ is my strength. Christ is your strength. And so now I know that there is so much more to spirituality than just Jesus, but it was a great start for my faith in my life, and it gave me happiness. And so I just had faith that this would work, so I started doing affirmations, but they didn't work. Michael, do you want to know why? Sure, yeah, we've got nothing else to do today, right? May as well. Hear about it well, because neuroscience has proven now that affirmations do work and they do positive thinking actually does make a difference in the brain, in the neural pathways. It does make a difference. It ignites something in different parts of the brain. But back then, in the 80s, there was no way to prove that, you know, let alone Napoleon Hill in the 1920s but the thing that he said was most important is, you have to believe it. You have to emotionalize it. But I couldn't, Michael, I couldn't emotionalize it because I would. I started an affirmation, I am healed. I know I am. I love myself. I am my friend. Now, none of those things were true, so I thought, but I did want them to be true, so I thought, great, I've got the perfect affirmation. But when you are feeling like you're feeling and the world around you is presenting the opposite of what you're saying. Your doubting mind spits it out and does not believe it. So about two, three weeks after stopping the affirmations, because I realized that didn't work, I literally had a spiritual epiphany, and it was, you know, as a songwriter, Michelle, you can't get a song out of your head, even if it's songs you don't like or jingles from advertising agencies. So sing your affirmations. Because I got my brother to look around for affirmation songs, and he said, there isn't any such thing. And so I started singing,   Speaker 1 ** 17:58 I am healed. I know I am I love myself. I am my friend. And   Michele Blood ** 18:05 I recorded it onto a cassette player, just a cappella over and over again. And that was the beginning. As I listened to that all day, every day I would I started feeling better. I started getting back to my attitude, that I can, I can heal it just I realized. And when I was working with Bob Proctor, he said, you know why that works so well? He said, It's because the left side of the brain is where the lyrics are, the affirmation, the right side the melody. And this is even before I started recording it with music, and so you have a whole brain experience. And the song, the doubting mind doesn't have a chance to reject it. It goes straight into your subconscious mind. So that's how my positive affirmation pop music began. I didn't stop doing my other music, but I did have what they said, even the doctors, even though they're not supposed to say it, they said my healing was miraculous, and I ended up on TV shows and in the press and everything about what I'd been through for inspiration. And that's how it all began.   Michael Hingson ** 19:16 It. It really is all about believing it. It's it is so easy just to say something, but without truly accepting it, without truly making it a part of your psyche. However you do that it, it doesn't mean a thing. Don't   Michele Blood ** 19:32 mean a thing if it ain't something. Yeah, you do have to laugh. Do up, do up, do   Michele Blood ** 19:43 Yeah, music makes the world go around. It does,   Michael Hingson ** 19:48 and it's so important to take it seriously enough that you truly do believe it, and that's what's so important. And clearly. What you did? So what happened you you got healed completely, I would assume from all that had happened,   Michele Blood ** 20:10 yeah, I mean, it's still it still took quite a while, but I was determined. I put my high shoes back on, even though they said, don't wear high shoes. And I never intended for the affirmation music to go out to the public. My one of the band members that I work with and wrote songs with John Beatty, Hi John. He he's in person now in Australia with millions of kids, but anyway, we won't help me. Listens, yeah, we went into the recording studio and we, we just started recording. I was writing a lot of songs, and we started recording tons of different affirmation songs in all different styles of you know, from R and B to just rock to ballads to depending on what the song was about, whether it was about, you know, divine love, more of a ballad, more of a some of them just more rock and roll about being successful. And when the press found out that I was actually doing that, then promoters that were bringing out American very, very big, best selling authors asked me to come and do my singing affirmations in between these people. And I said, No, I don't want to do that. I'm not doing it for the public. Was just for me, my band, to have these positive thoughts. And they said, No, we love it. We love it. We want you to do it. And so my very first gig, I'm in Adelaide, Australia, and there's three and a half 1000 people on a Wednesday that came to this gig that paid over $300 each for a ticket, which I thought was absolutely insane. I didn't know what was going on. And I sang, and got all the people up on stage singing the affirmation songs with me made it into like a mini rock concert. And then Deepak Chopra, this, who I'd never heard of, never met before. Wayne Dyer, who I'd never heard of, never met before. Tony Alessandra, Stuart, wild, they were the speakers, and they couldn't believe it when we went out to dinner that night that I've never heard of any of them. And I said, I'm in rock and roll. I'm not in the motivational world. You know, I've, I've never heard of you, because I've not in that world. And so they were interested in how it all began, and they all said, You've got to tour this around the world. You've got to you've got to release these that we love. What you're doing. The audience is so different. Bob Proctor, though he was the one, when I ended up working with him, the promoters said, you know, we've got this female Australian singer, and you're going to be touring with her? And he said, No, I don't want a female singer. I'm Bob Proctor. I don't need that anyway. The first gig I did with him in Sydney, he came out after, and he said, I didn't want to work with a singer. And I said, good to meet you too, mate. I Yes, how are you? And he said, but no, all kidding aside. He said, My wife and I, Linda, we loved it so much, and I want you to work with me all over the world, doing events. So eventually I end up working with Bob for seven years straight. We wrote books together. We wrote music together. We put on huge events. I took over his business, looked after it, and from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, where I lived, and then, and it was just very, very interesting. I've worked in over 26 countries, huge, huge audiences. The biggest one I had was 50,000 people. So to say it was successful is an understatement, but I didn't plan it. I didn't visualize it, but I had always planned on being very well known singer, but it but not to be a positive affirmation or singer. I'd never thought of that, but eventually I went off the grid and started really getting into deep meditation practice and getting off the that whole circuit, because I wanted to find God within me. So that was what happened. And it was fascinating, because it's like working with all these, you know, rock musicians, male rock musicians, and then working with all these male best selling authors. I'm like, I'm always surrounded by the boys.   Michael Hingson ** 24:46 Hey, whatever works, it's, it's interesting though, that that you, you did so much of this, I gather that the audience is reacted very positively, though. Um. Have you heard from anyone that it really changed their life to have encountered you and heard you when you performed? Oh,   Michele Blood ** 25:10 yeah, we've had millions. I mean, we've got a lot of our video video testimonials and testimonials from not just best selling authors that I've worked with, but also from people from all over the world. I work with people in over 32 countries now, and some of them don't even speak English, but they still feel the vibration. And a lot of different people have started singing my songs in different languages, which I allow anyone to do. They don't have to pay me a royalty. They can just do it whatever brings positivity to the world and change within someone, so that they can get out of that rabbit hole. Because you're, you know, your whole podcast about unstoppable mindset. Well, this is such a a great new beginning is to just have to listen to a song. Yeah? And, you know, there's so I've got hundreds of songs to choose from, so it's a good it's a good way to start, because music, you know, like I always say to people, if you have the blues, even though I like blues and I think it's brilliant, but if you have the blues, probably best not to listen to the blues. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 26:21 definitely, definitely true. Well, of course, one has to ask if, if you have one, not necessarily long, but that you want to sing for us all.   Michele Blood ** 26:38 Yeah, I can. I didn't have anything set up. But if you'd like to chat for a minute, I'll just get something set up for you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 26:45 okay, we can, we can do that. I do. I do agree with you that if you've got the blues, you don't want to listen to the blues. I I personally like happy stuff. I like musicals, especially when they're they're happy musicals. I've always enjoyed that. I do listen and read science fiction and sometimes read some some pretty horrific things. But I've noticed later in my life I'm doing less of that because I, although I like mysteries, I don't like nowadays really graphical or very graphic murder mysteries and things like that, and so people call the kinds of things that I probably typically like cozy mysteries. I wouldn't say that Rex Stout books about neural wolf the private detective are necessarily cozy, but by the same token, they're not the most graphic things, and I've always enjoyed them because they're puzzles. And I love mysteries that are really puzzles that I can become engaged in and try to solve, and musicals I like just because they're fun and and they're they're very happy for the most part. And so again, they're, they're very relevant to to want to listen to. So I, I tend to do that. So it's a lot of fun to keep in the the spirit of reasonably happy and stay away from the blues. Okay,   Michele Blood ** 28:17 I've got something set up now, alright, saying low battery, but oh, sorry. What happened there? There it is. There it is. This song is called synergy. I wrote it with Bob Proctor. Can you hear the music?   Michael Hingson ** 28:35 It's a little low, but yes, go ahead. Better. Yep,   Speaker 1 ** 28:40 there's a way to get it moving, to make it happen, to get high. Can barely flooded in the clouds, join thoughts and let them fly. When your mind joins in with others and all your thoughts to one a US. Energy begins to sizzle and it's energy positive energy synergy. It's energy, hot energy, positive energy turn into synergy. Together, creative power will start to flow. Things begin to happen. You're a church with Synergy. Red Hot energy, positive energy grows into synergy. It's energy, hot energy, positive energy grows into synergy.   Michele Blood ** 29:55 You shine and become magnetic, you'll draw the good. People out the world will be a better place, and everyone will start to shout, face to face, building   Speaker 2 ** 30:12 energy. Taste. The taste is this energy, thoughts, launching into one, a new boss have become this is synergy.   Speaker 1 ** 30:23 It's synergy, red hot energy, positive energy, delta, synergy, it's synergy.   Michael Hingson ** 30:34 There you go. Now   30:36 that's Bob Proctor. Wrote the lyrics for that.   Michael Hingson ** 30:41 But, um, who was the male voice near the end? Oh, the   Michele Blood ** 30:44 male voice was a American guy in who was singing covers in Kuala Lumpur when I lived there, Ah, okay, and I just hired him to come and and do that in the studio in Kuala Lumpur, yeah. But the other affirmation songs are more simple, but they're still got, you know, like a good dance beat, some of them are ballads greeting the day with love in your heart. It just depends on where you want to take your mind that day. Do you want to open your heart? Do you want to be like listen to the persistent song. Do you want to feel more successful? You listen to the success song, which is like 50s, rock and roll. So they're all different. They're all different product, production. So it was a lot of fun changing the different styles for each song depending on the lyrics.   Michael Hingson ** 31:34 Well, if people want to get those affirmation songs and so on, are they available for people to get? Yeah,   Michele Blood ** 31:41 all my albums are sold all over the world, and iTunes, of course, Amazon. My own website is magnet to success. Com. My YouTube channel is Michelle blood.com forward slash YouTube. But I've got lovely giveaways for your for your audience, if you'd like me to share that. Well, we will   Michael Hingson ** 32:03 do that a little bit, okay, but I really appreciate you seeing synergy. I will be, I will be saying that to myself the rest of the day, which is fine, but you know, you mentioned the blues and so on. So here's a question, if somebody is really down and really frustrated, how can they change their life to the positive?   Michele Blood ** 32:31 Well, first of all, even if they are really down, you've got to know, no matter what is going on in your life, that everything is possible for you, and that you can get out of that rabbit hole, and that you are you might feel alone, but you're never alone. Whether you believe in God or you don't believe in God, there is a God and you are looked after. You can pray without begging just giving. One of the most wonderful things you can do is just to start to write down what you're thankful for immediately. If you can say thank you divine, or just thank you for my beautiful life, and if then you can begin to write down what a beautiful life would look like for you, just start writing it down, even though it's not true yet. Like, let's start thinking about what can be done. What do you what sort of friends do you want? What sort of lifestyle do you want? You know, start thinking of others as well. Whenever we can do something, if we can do something every single day that makes somebody else happy, whether it's feeding the homeless or sending funny kitten videos to your friends. You if you can do something every day that brings happiness to somebody else or takes them out of suffering, well, then it'll take you out of yourself. Because if, if it's something emotional that you're going through, that means that you're going to sometimes we do need to go through the emotion, particularly if we're mourning the loss of something or someone that's important and healthy. But it is also important to stop thinking about ourselves so much and look at what can be done for the world. I love I love Saint Vincent de Paul. I love the Salvation Army so much, so you can tithe to them anonymously. If you want to do something you don't know what to do, even if it's just a buck, five bucks, it's really good to tithe to charities that are doing good in the world. And I'm sure there's a charity that you could recommend to us, Michael, that will help with the blind. If you got one, you can recommend?   Michael Hingson ** 34:43 Well, I think there, there really are a number of of places to donate. One of my favorites is the National Federation of the Blind, nfb.org, because it's, it's a consumer organization that fights for the rights of. Of blind people around the United States and actually around the world. And it's the NFB is the largest consumer organization of blind people in this country and, in fact, in the world. But it has made such a difference in the lives of blind people. For example, through the National Federation of blind we completely changed the life insurance industry that refused to provide life insurance for any blind person up until the mid 1980s and when it was finally discovered that they were denying us, not because they had any evidence and actual mathematical models that proved that we were a risk, which is what they're supposed to do. They were doing it strictly out of prejudice. And so now every state in the union, because of the Federation, has actually passed legislation that says you can't discriminate unless you've got real evidence. Well, it's been 40 years, and nobody's come up with evidence that we're a higher risk simply because we're blind or other persons with disabilities, their disabilities directly make them a higher risk. So, you know, that's that's definitely one of my favorite organizations to support. And   Michele Blood ** 36:13 nfb.org everybody. Nfb.org I've written it down for me to start tithing there as well. And,   Michael Hingson ** 36:20 you know, and there, there are so many others. Another organization that I tend to like, it's a very small organization, is advocates for service animal partners asap.org, and and it fights for the rights of people with a variety of disabilities who use service animals, service dogs, to be able to take their dogs with them, where wherever they go, because we're denied. So awesome. So I like asap.org as well.   Michele Blood ** 36:51 I love what you did. I think it was you and Ray and his wife. You were going to a particular restaurant and a a suity maitre d snotty, snooty, wouldn't let you in with your blind dog, with your with your guide dog, right? And and she was really upset the wife. And so you end up gathering quite a few of your friends that are blind, that have guide dogs, and you went in, and he had to oblige and let you all in. And everyone was very nice to you. So that was really good, because that it, it's, it's illegal for them to say you can't come in with your guide dog. It is   Michael Hingson ** 37:28 illegal, and it has been illegal for a long time. One of my favorite stories, which really wasn't a bad story at all, there used to be a restaurant in Boston in Quincy Market called Durgan Park. And Durgan Park was was basically family style, although around the outside of the room they had tables for four but you couldn't sit at one of those tables unless you had four people. Well, we came in one night and there were only three of us and my dog, Holland, and the the host has said, You know what, I'm going to make an exception and let you sit at this table for four so Holland was under the table, and there were three of us, and the waitress came up, and the waitresses at Durgan Park are known as snots. I mean, they're, they're, they're, they're supposed to be really rough and all that. It's just part of the schtick. But she came up and she said, What are you people doing sitting here? And he said, well, the host has put us here. No, she didn't. You're just sitting here. No, she did. It's because of the dog under the table. No, there's no dog under the table. You're not going to make me fall for that. And she walks away, and then she comes back and she said, you're not supposed to be sitting here and all that. I said, Look, there's a dog under the table. Take a look. And it took a while, but I finally got her to look, and there's Holland staring at her with these big brown eyes when she lifts up the the tablecloth, and the next thing I know, she comes back with a big plate. Jurgen Park has very good sized portions of frying rib and says, Can I give this to the dog, oh, and, and normally, I would never do that, but in the for to promote goodwill, I said, Okay, which Hall of love? And, you know, I knew the food there was good, but, you know, it was, it was just one of those great stories. But, yeah, all too often that isn't the way it goes. We see so many challenges with Uber, for example, so many drivers refuse to take blind people or other people with disabilities who have service dogs. It's against the rules, and they say, but it's our car. No, you signed a contract that said that you are going to transport the public, so it is illegal for you to deny us. But they do, and that's one of the things that ASAP, for example, is really working on to address, to get Uber, to recognize that it has to enforce the law like everyone else. But it's a challenge. People come from all sorts of different points of view. You know, with   Michele Blood ** 39:59 the name like. Uber. How could they do that? They're not being very Uber.   40:04 Well, there you go.   Michele Blood ** 40:07 Wow. That's interesting in this day and age. Absolutely, it continues all too often. So many people have slipped into something more comfortable, like a coma. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 40:18 Now you and your team have created an app. I think it's called what magnet to money. Tell us about that. Yeah,   Michele Blood ** 40:24 it was interesting. Thanks, Michael. I wanted to do because sometimes people like you were talking earlier, how do they get out of their you know, their depression, or whatever they're going through that they're feeling, how do they get out of that rabbit hole? So if you're feeling that way, and your mindset is in a negative state of mind, and you're emotionally not feeling well, well, then it's very, very challenging for you to want to put on some positive, you know, affirmation music. Because I know when I was in the hospital, if people came in and they were too chirpy. I would couldn't wait for them to go because I wasn't oscillating at that frequency. Yeah, you know. So they're all Oh, hi. And so I thought, wouldn't it be great if we had an app and it would just play? As you know, they can choose the notifications how often it will play. And so Polly fella, Trevor Rogers and Johnny and Dara and myself, we worked really hard, especially Holly fella, to develop this app. And it took about two and a half years to develop it. And it's got morning meditations. It's got tons of affirmations with music underneath. It's got a sleep program to help. As they're sleeping, people are sleeping, I'm very softly saying affirmations and positive you know, feed, feed to their minds. And it's also got notifications, so the magnet to money song will play whatever they want to, so they don't have to even remember to and eventually, like someone the other day, said she was in a bank and she had the magnet to Money App, and she had it as her ringtone as well. And she's in this big bank that was hardly anybody in there, but it was quite chamber ish, Echo ish, and she said, and her phone was on pretty loud. It started, I'm a magnet to money came on really loud, and everyone started laughing. They're like, well, that's sort of, I guess, you know, a good thing to play in a bank. Yeah, works. So, yeah, the magnet to Money App is fantastic. App. It's got so much on it, and it's got an audio book you get for free from myself and Bob Proctor called magnet to money through the sea of unlimited consciousness, one one of our books that we did as an audio book, and we thought we've also got a free app, because that magnet to Money App is only about, I think it's $4 or something A month, but the affirmation power app is free, and on that tons of affirmations, plus my affirmation music videos is on there as well. So that's free, if anybody wants that.   Michael Hingson ** 43:13 So yeah, so is that available with Android and Apple and iPhone? No,   Michele Blood ** 43:17 just, just apple at the moment, because to develop for an Android is much more complicated because there are so many different companies, yeah, yes, whereas Apple, it's just the iPhone, but we do intend to, but it's, you know, we've got the manifestation video app as well, and we've got a New App coming out, which is all my audio books. And I'm doing a new audio book every month, not just my books on audio, but other people's books on audio as well. And then the next step after that, is a prayer app, talking about prayer, how to pray, and for me, teaching people the power of prayer. So it's really lovely to be able to do apps that have got positive, you know, the very, very, you know, if they were to buy all those individual products from me to cost hundreds dollars, and this way it's just a few dollars a month all free for them to get all my positive songs and books and all that sort of thing.   Michael Hingson ** 44:17 How do people search for these apps that in the in the app store. I think   Michele Blood ** 44:22 that if they just go under, look under Michelle blood, okay, under my name, yeah, okay, they'll just come up. I   Michael Hingson ** 44:29 will, I will be doing that this afternoon. I think that's that's pretty cool. You know, in in our world today, we become so materialistic in so many ways, but at the same time, a lot of people have really become students of your affirmations and so on. How did they really become students? And I think even more important, one of the questions that I would ask is. How does it really transform, or did it really transform people's consciousness and set them on a road toward a more spiritual path? Because I think in so many ways, we don't see people doing that, and at the same time, I know there are a lot of people who do, but by the same token, there's so many people who go, oh, this is just all pokem. It doesn't really mean anything, but that's just not true.   Michele Blood ** 45:24 Well, I think it's, it's an interesting question to answer, because there are so many different types of people in the world, and we can't expect to change people. They have to, you know, I don't want anyone to suffer. Michael, first of all, so I think having positive thoughts in their head is going to actually make them think less of themselves, believe it or not, these the way the lyrics are done, and more of joy and sharing and caring about other people, because it is so important to to do that, because people, if they get too much into themselves, Like I say to people, don't buy anything if you're buying it. For someone else to be to compliment you, that's a really good way of deciding what you're going to purchase in your life. If you're doing it to you know, to say, Oh, I've got this really nice car. Look how great I am. But get it if you want a good car. Get it because you want a nice, safe car that's good for the environment, but don't get it so that you will impress other people. Unless you're a real estate agent, they do need good cars, apparently, to drive people around, yeah, I guess so. Drive people around,   Michael Hingson ** 46:35 but, or drive people crazy, yeah,   Michele Blood ** 46:37 but. But I also think it's important that that if you want to, you can't tell someone to be more spiritual. They have to get into a positive frame of mindset first. Because when you're in a positive frame of mindset, you start feeling more of a heart blow, more love. And even if you don't believe in God, you believe in love everybody, I know you do, so whether it's your animal that you love, because every animal is an angel, whether it's nature, smelling the remembering to stop and smell the flowers, remembering to not let yourself complain. Complaining will take you down a rabbit hole of absolute negativity and please. People remember, the only reason you're complaining is because you're feeling fear about losing something or not getting something that you want. And so if you can stop complaining for 28 days straight, you will change your life. And I know that sounds impossible, but many people can do it, because I've seen my students do it. So if you can stop complaining and stop half if you're halfway through a complaint about something or someone or politics or Trump or whatever in the hell it is, stop yourself halfway through and just say, Why am I complaining? And people are complaining because they're in fear. If you can stop and be mindful enough to say, I'm complaining because I'm afraid of something, and I don't want to face it and find out what you're afraid of, the thing that you're afraid of will dissipate. Yeah, it really will. So I think that's a really good place to start listening to the positive songs, for sure, going to every single unstoppable mindset podcast you possibly can go to reading Michael's books, and also, just knowing that you can get out of that rabbit hole, it is totally possible, and I've seen it in people from all different cultures and religious backgrounds all over the world. I've traveled to so many different countries, and have so many different audiences, and everybody wants to be loved and be loved in return. And everybody wants to see other people happy at their core. They really do. We don't want to make people unhappy, do you? So stop complaining.   Michael Hingson ** 49:07 You know, it's, it's interesting that you, you talk about all this, one of the things that we talk a lot about, and you'll see it and live like the guide dog, is that we need to become more introspective. Because if we do and we really look at ourselves daily, and, for example, look at what worked today, what didn't work. Why didn't it work? You eventually get to what was I really afraid of? And if you really stop to think about that and go, I didn't need to be afraid of that, your life will change, which is really, as you're pointing out, what it's all about.   Michele Blood ** 49:44 Excellent, excellent. I'm looking forward to reading that as well, and then I've already told everyone to get thunder dog on all my lists. But now I'll be, after I read the next one, I'll be telling them to read that as well, because we're on the same page. Michael.   Michael Hingson ** 49:59 Tell me a little bit about something I've read in your bio, how you went from affirmations to a full kundalini awakening.   Michele Blood ** 50:09 Well, when I was working with Bob Proctor in Asia, I was saying to him one day, I feel this heart blow like I feel like my heart is out of my chest, and I feel such deep love. And it's not for any person, place or thing. It's for everything, actually, but it's beyond that. It's divine. And he said, you're looking for an enlightened teacher. That's what you need. And I said, Well, where do you find an enlightened teacher, and what exactly is that? And he got me to read Autobiography of a Yogi by Hara mahansa Yogananda. And I'd read it before, but I didn't really get it like I did this time when I read it, and I realized that enlightenment wasn't just one person. People can actually meditate and go into higher states of consciousness, but I wasn't thinking of how is an enlightened being around in this modern world? That can't be right? Because I it must be like unless it's Asia maybe. He said, I don't know. He said, I did have a Canadian man who was enlightened, who taught me for three years before he died, left the body. And he said, you just have to pray for it and know that the teacher and the student will find each other. It took me 14 years of searching all over the world, and eventually I found an enlightened teacher in all places America, and I decided to go off the grid, and I really had to to study with her as a student, because she didn't like us to be on Facebook or social media. She said, you don't want attention on yourself when you're studying with me, because you want to be able to go in deeply. Yeah. So I went off. I studied with her for 12 years, but after the first few years, I went into a full awakening myself, never expecting that. Didn't expect it to happen to me. I thought, how could a rock singer in Australia, have a kundalini awakening, but I did, and now I love to teach mysticism and spirituality and meditation practice to students from all over the world. And I love to do it. I think there's so many tools in the toolbox of life, whatever sort of personality you have, whether you're extremely religious or you just want to have more positive outcome. You want to become healthier. I think meditation practice is good for everybody. You do not have to be religious or think of spirituality to enjoy a quiet mind. It'll slow down your blood pressure. It will give you pump your blood, it'll stop your mind from going down a million rabbit holes where your senses take you. I just think meditation practice is a miraculous, privileged thing to do.   Michael Hingson ** 52:53 I agree. And you know, one of the things that it's a little bit off topic for what you just said, but we were talking earlier about people praying and looking for so many things. I'm amazed at how many people pray to God, telling God what they want and what they think they need. And I'm sitting there whenever I hear about that today, especially, I think, Wait a minute, God already knows that what you need to do is to listen to get the response, and thank God for the response, but people just don't do that. I'm just so amazed at at that. But it's it is so true that we spend too much time not doing the thing that we really need to do, which is listening and talking with God, not talking to God.   Michele Blood ** 53:46 Yeah, that's why I I'm loving recording the new prayer app, because I explain to people what prayer actually is. It's not If you do this for me, God, I'll start, stop eating pizza, yeah? Or maybe trade off. So I teach people what prayer actually is, and it's, it's really the most sacred thing and beautiful thing, and it will uplift you, even if you just, I've got a section where they I'm praying for others, so they can just listen to any different topic of what type of prayer, but the main thing for me was explaining, doing the introduction of what prayer is and how to pray, because so many people have no idea what prayer really is, that communion with your higher self, and once you get to understand what that is, then you can hear that still, small voice you can literally hear through. Ah, your intuition becomes stronger you can and intuition is you being in tune with your higher self. And your higher self is omniscient wisdom. It created everything so it knows what. To tell you to do, and it will bring into your experience everything when you accept, when you can be open and receptive to receive and to give, just sort of let yourself go, just surrender to that divine Higher Self, when you can learn how to do that. That's another thing that I do on this prayer app is teach you what surrender really means and how you can do it. It's not taking your willpower away from you, because everyone that's a gift that we've been given. So we can make good choices in life, sometimes bad choices, but we can use our willpower to get ourselves out of that rabbit hole. So thank you for asking that. Michael, it's   Michael Hingson ** 55:41 extremely important to be able to do that. Well, you mentioned earlier that you had gifts for people listening to this podcast. Love it if you tell us about that,   Michele Blood ** 55:52 yes, yummy gifts. If you go to Michelle. Blood com, it's spelled M, I, C, H, E, L, E, B, L, O, O, O, d.com, forward slash unstoppable mindset. We've called that. We've made that link especially for Michael's podcast. Just for your people, they will get the audio version of one of my favorite books I've written called the magic of affirmation power audio book. They will get that for free, but in that audio book has tons of affirmations you can repeat after me, links to some of my music for free. You'll also get a six week mysticism course, and there are other things as well. I can't remember what they are right now, but they're all on that link.   Michael Hingson ** 56:37 But Michelle blood com slash unstoppable mindset. I thank you for the otter. Appreciate that. Well now if people want to come hear you, I know you do live events and you do zoom events and so on. How can we learn about that? How can people do that?   Michele Blood ** 56:57 Well, they can go to request Divine light.com to find out what is my next event, because I have free events, a lot a lot of free zoom events people can come to, and you'll just get to meet so many happy, lovely people from so many different countries. And we just have a blast together. And you'll be very, very uplifted after everyone, because everyone that comes on are just, we seem to be attracting, over the years, just people that are really, sincerely wanting a better life and to do it, to do good in the world. And I just love them all so much. So if they go to request Divine Light com, they can see where my next free event will be. I mean, it's on Zoom, but I mean when it will be   Michael Hingson ** 57:46 right? Request, divine light. Com, cool. Well, I really appreciate you coming on. And obviously people can go to Michelle blood, com, and there's a lot there, I would assume as well. So hopefully people will go, go check out everything that's there, and we'll take this seriously, because I think there is so much that you have offered. We've had a number of people on unstoppable mindset who talk about everything from reg a to Eastern medicine, meditation and and so many things. They all can't be totally wrong. So from my perspective, they are not wrong. But by the same token, it's fun to be able to get a chance to to have you on. We'll have to do this again, and I'm going to certainly go download the apps and put them on my nice little iPhone and start taking advantage of them. But I really appreciate you coming on and and being with us for an hour today. Well,   Michele Blood ** 58:51 Michael, thank you for the books that you've written and everything that you've done in the world. I just think you're just an inspiration and just a lovely, lovely man. So thank you. It's, it's lovely getting to know you. And I'm just going to tell everyone about these books, because they're amazing, well written as well. Just really, really good.   Michael Hingson ** 59:13 Well, thank you. So, when are you going to do a podcast? I'm going   Michele Blood ** 59:17 to do a podcast with a man called just I just had a brain fart. Thomas Miller, uh, at the moment, his podcast is called subconscious mind mastery, and he's interviewed me quite a few times. We met in person, and I love his outlook on life, about really not saying no to anything that's mystical. And so we're going to start one next year together. He's already got his own, but this will be a different one where we'll go a little deeper, a deeper dive into mysticism. I think we're going to call it well,   Michael Hingson ** 59:55 if he needs a guess for his existing podcast, if he has guests or. You guys have your podcast together. If you ever want a guest, I volunteer. So I'll just, Oh,   Michele Blood ** 1:00:05 I'll tell him today. Goodness, yes,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:10 I'm, I'm always, I'm always open for that. Oh,   Michele Blood ** 1:00:13 I'll tell him today. Yeah, because you, I love you.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:18 Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. I hope you enjoyed this at least half as much as I did, hopefully as much as I did. This has been a lot of fun and educational, I think, in so many ways, to help us deal with our outlooks on life. I'd love to hear your thoughts about it. Please feel free to email me. Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast website, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n. So Michael hingson.com/podcast, and wherever you're listening, please give us a five star review. We really value your reviews. But of course, love the five star ones, so if we can, we would really appreciate it if you give us a five star review and and say, say good things about us and and go off and definitely visit Michelle's pages. And, of course, being very prejudiced, go to Michelle blood com slash unstoppable mindset and get some free gifts from her. And if you know of anyone who you think would be a good guest, and Michelle you as well. I'm always looking for podcast guests, so okay, don't hesitate to to refer people to us. We appreciate that a whole lot. So once again, I want to thank you for being here. Michelle, this has been a lot of fun. Thank   Michele Blood ** 1:01:45 you. Michael, God bless you. More love everyone. More Love   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:54   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Dr. Khwaja Moinuddin grew up in India with what he calls a “normal childhood”. He attended high school and then received his bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering in his home town. With some convincing and soul searching he then came to the United States and attended Texas Tech university where he obtained his Master's degree and began working toward obtaining a PhD. Khwaja tells us about his time at Texas Tech including how, when funding grew hard to get, he overcame his fears and adversity and found a job that helped him stay in school. Even so, while working on his Doctorate degree he secured a job with 3M and, as he tells us, he learned a lot and even today he is grateful for the opportunities he had at this company. Eventually, however, under the advice of others he did finish his PhD, but not in Mechanical Engineering as such.   Khwaja began learning about organizations, how they worked, why often they didn't work well and he developed ways to help people at all levels of organizations learn how to stop being so resistive to change and thus develop more positive attitudes and constructive methods of accomplishing tasks.   We get to hear much wisdom from Khwaja on leadership, resistance to change and how to better accomplish tasks by being more open to new ideas. This episode is a MUST for everyone if you are at all open to learning some new ideas and growing to be better in whatever you do at work, in life and at play.       About the Guest:   Dr. Khwaja Moinuddin is a renowned leader in Continuous Improvement, Change Management, and Business Transformation, with over 22 years of hands-on experience driving measurable impact across diverse industries. His mission is clear: to help organizations embed a culture of excellence, resilience, and continuous learning - not as a temporary initiative, but as a way of working. Whether leading large-scale change programs, coaching executives, or transforming operational models, he has built a reputation for delivering tangible business results and lasting cultural shifts. With deep expertise in Continuous Improvement, Change Leadership, and Robotic Process Automation (RPA), Dr. Moinuddin partners with organizations to challenge the status quo, eliminate inefficiencies, and create high-performing teams. He has worked across multiple industries, functions, and global markets, collaborating with executive leaders, middle managers, and frontline employees to break down silos and drive sustainable transformation. His holistic approach ensures that strategy, execution, and people engagement work in tandem, because real change happens when employees at every level take ownership of improvement. A passionate thought leader and author, Dr. Moinuddin has distilled his years of experience into two books that serve as practical guides for transformation:   "I.N.S.P.I.R.E. - An Adaptive Change Excellence Model and Guide of the people, for the people, by the people" – A framework for leading people-centered, high-impact change initiatives. "Are You (Really) Listening?: Decoding the Secrets of Unheard Conversations" – A deep dive into the power of listening as a critical leadership and change management skill.   Dr. Moinuddin's philosophy is simple: transformation is not about tools, it's about people, mindset, and discipline. If your organization is struggling with change fatigue, leadership misalignment, or resistance to new ways of working, he can help you turn obstacles into opportunities and create a culture where excellence thrives. Let's connect and explore how we can drive real, measurable business impact, together!     Dr. Khwaja Moinuddin's journey is a testament to the power of perseverance, continuous learning, and an unstoppable mindset. Born and raised in a simple middle-class family in Pondicherry, India, a former French colony - he completed his schooling and earned a Bachelor's degree in Mechanical Engineering before moving to the U.S. to pursue his Master's in Industrial Engineering. At Texas Tech University, he excelled academically, achieving a 4.0/4.0 GPA in his major (Manufacturing) and an overall GPA of 3.83/4.0. While pursuing his degree, he also worked as an intern for Rhodia Inc., a chemicals manufacturing company, gaining valuable hands-on industry experience. Khwaja began his career as an Industrial Engineer with 3M, where he learned the foundations for his expertise in Continuous Improvement (CI) and Change Leadership. Over the years, he obtained multiple professional certifications, including Lean Six Sigma Master Black Belt, Certified Change Practitioner, Certified Prince2 Practitioner and Certified Scrum Master. His career took him across the globe, leading large-scale transformation initiatives in world-renowned organizations such as Ocean Spray Cranberries, Shell, Maersk, GARMCO, HSBC, and PDO (Petroleum Development Oman). Despite a demanding global career, Khwaja pursued his passion for learning, earning a Doctorate in Management Studies and a second Master's degree in Psychology while working full-time. His belief "To Learn is to Breathe" has shaped his leadership philosophy, helping organizations embrace change, embed a culture of excellence, and achieve breakthrough results. Beyond his professional accomplishments, Khwaja is a devoted husband and father. He fell in love with and married his wife, Sangeetha, while in the U.S., and together they have a 15-year-old son, Tanish. They now reside in Chennai, India. Dr. Khwaja travels frequently for his consulting work, and he continues to inspire businesses, leaders, and professionals to transform their organizations, and themselves - with an unstoppable mindset.   Ways to connect with Dr. Khwaja:   https://www.processexcellencenetwork.com/contributor/khwaja-moinuddin https://www.journeytowardsexcellence.com/ https://www.khwajamoinuddin.com/ https://www.journeytowardsexcellence.com/ https://www.khwajamoinuddin.com/     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello again, everyone. I am your host once again. Michael hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're with us, wherever you happen to be in the world, and wherever we happen to be talking in the world. And today we're actually talking to Dr Khwaja Moinuddin from India. So it's a long distance boy signals travel a lot faster today than they did when we used covered wagons or Coney pony expresses. So I'm really grateful for the fact that we get to use Zoom and computers and do things in such a meaningful way. So anyway, here we are. Kwaja has written two books, and I know he's going to tell us about those, so I'm not going to give a lot of that away. He has been a transformational leader. He also has a background in mechanical engineering, and that fascinates me, because it seems to me, it's interesting going from mechanical engineering to being a transformational subject matter expert and expert by any standard. So I'm going to be curious to hear about that. But anyway, meanwhile, Khwaja, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset, and thank you for being here.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 02:28 Thank you. Thank you, Michael, it's, it's indeed an honor to be on your podcast. And you know, as as we have been discussing, I'm no expert by any means. I have just gathered years and years of experience, 22 plus years of experience, and I'm still learning and continuous improvement, transformation. It's an ocean. So the more you know I learn, the more I feel like I don't know much. Yes, there is to learn, yes.   Michael Hingson ** 03:05 Well, I know exactly what you're saying. I think if we stop learning, then we have really let ourselves down and let the world down. We need to continue to learn. And I very much enjoy doing this podcast, because I get to learn so much from so many people. It's really a lot of fun. So I want to again, thank you for being here and looking forward to all that we get to talk about today. So let's get to it. I'd like to learn a little bit about maybe the early Khwaja Growing up and so on. Tell us a little bit about you growing up in India and so on.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 03:38 Yep, I'm from a very small town in Pondicherry called Pondicherry in in India, the closest big city is Chennai. It's about 160 kilometers south of Chennai. It used to be a former French colony. Now the place has been changed. I mean, the name has been changed from Pondicherry to Puducherry. But growing up, I'm the youngest of two kids. I have a brother. He's four years older than me, and my parents were typical middle class, lower middle class, both working parents. They worked really, really hard to put me and my brother through to school. They took care of us, they protected us. So I'm really grateful for my parents, my mom, my dad and my brother also could be quite me, you know, when I was young. So I'm really grateful to my family, because we were just the four of us in our family. Growing up, I went to a public school, initially, I went to a private school, and. Uh, but then my parents couldn't afford the fees, so we moved to public school, and I did all my schooling and my bachelor's in mechanical engineering in Pondicherry. So born and brought up in Pondicherry, which was a small fishing village, didn't know much about the real world until, you know, I graduated and stepped out of India for the very first time to go to the US to do my master's degree. My childhood was, was, was normal, you know, on a living on a on a coast. So I really enjoyed living near the beach. We didn't live very far away from the beach, just maybe, you know, maybe 100, 200 meters away from the beach. Growing up, I had a lot of friends, so we would be, would take our bicycles and and, you know, ride all over the town because it, you know, it wasn't as crazy as it is now with all the traffic and stuff, it was less congested. And the good thing about Pondicherry, an interesting fact is, because it was designed by the French, all the streets in Pondicherry are at right angles to each other. So you would never get lost if you are in Pondicherry, in the middle of the Pondicherry, because wherever you go, if you take a right turn and another right turn and another right turn, you will end up at the same place. So you will never get lost. That's an interesting fact in Pondicherry. How about Pondicherry?   Michael Hingson ** 06:39 So it certainly is a whole lot easier to travel around pontichery than it is to travel around Washington DC by any standard, I think. So yes, there's a lot of Angular streets and streets that go in different directions in Washington. So yeah, I think I'd like pot of cherry that's pretty good. So did you learn to fish?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 07:03 Not, not, yeah. I mean, I did learn how to fish, but more swimming. Used to go to the ocean almost every day. You know, I think I practically spent a lot of time on the beach with my friends and in the playgrounds. Our playgrounds used to be huge growing up, unlike now, they have become so small and condensed with all the, you know, development, the real estate that's growing in India, in Pondicherry and in India in general. But, but yeah, I did learn how to fish, you know, not using, like a fishing rod in the in the US, but using, you know, the the fishing, the the thread, you know, the nylon wire, fishing net, yeah, yeah. Not, not the net, but the wire, just was the single wire,   Michael Hingson ** 07:58 well, so you what, what got you into mechanical engineering?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 08:05 Well, you know, as, as all of my fellow Indians would say, in India, you are either an engineer or a doctor first. So, so I really had no choice. I had to become an engineer or a doctor. I didn't score enough to become a doctor, so I naturally became an engineer. But since I have to become an engineer, I was looking at, you know, all the different fields of engineering. What fascinated me was, you know, the field of mechanical engineering, because I heard from several of my friends and colleagues that mechanical engineering is an evergreen field, and typically, mechanical engineers can fit anywhere. And they were really, really they were, they were 100% correct. And I'm glad I chose mechanical engineering and I really liked my subject, because that what I am today would not be if I hadn't learned about mechanical engineering. Well.   Michael Hingson ** 09:07 So you, you got your bachelor's degree, but then you, as you said, you stepped out and you, you actually came to the United States and went to Texas Tech to do your advanced degree. What made you do that? That's moving a long way from home, yep.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 09:23 So some of my my my friends and my seniors, also, when I was doing my mechanical engineering, they were talking about something called as a GRE or a TOEFL. It sounded Greek, like Greek and Latin to me. I didn't know what it was. I had no intention of going to the US initially. My intention was to get a job and earn a lot of money and and I was almost done studying at that point of time, you know, learning subjects like thermodynamics and lot of advanced mechanics. Engineering stuff for four years really wears you out. But my my seniors and and my cousin also, and my uncles and a lot of my relatives, they said, you know, if you don't do your masters now, and if you go straight away to work, you may not have the inclination to learn more. So they really, they really prompted me or nudged me to do my Masters also, and and my mom, of course, she has been a great, great, great driving force behind me. She She encouraged me to always, always, always learn. She herself has, you know, so many degrees I cannot, I don't even know how many degrees she has. She has master's degrees and Bachelor's degrees in in, you know, all sorts of areas. And to this day, you know, she she keeps learning, and she has been a teacher for about 45 years now. So so my mom, along with my relatives and my friends. They said, You know, you need to study more so. So, you know, I had actually got a job, you know, in my fourth year. And I got a job through on campus interviews, you know, like a career fair in the in the US, similar to a career fair in the US. So I gave up that job and I wrote GRE and TOEFL. I worked hard. Got I did not get like flying colors, but I got, I got good grades in GRE and TOEFL, and then I applied to universities. Initially I was going to be an aerospace engineer, but then my friends also told me that maybe that's a difficult field to get a job in in future, because it requires, you know, us, security clearance and stuff. So you're you're better off doing something which is related to mechanical engineering, or even mechanical engineering. I didn't want to go too much into technical stuff, so I explored industrial engineering, and I found, you know, the courses and all that stuff were really to my liking and to my interest. So, so then I chose industrial engineering and Texas Tech specifically because of the industrial engineering program they had. So then and, and that's one, one thing led to another. And then I landed in Texas Tech University.   Michael Hingson ** 12:26 Well, that must have been fun. So you had lots of new experiences. You learned about football and all sorts of other things in addition to your academic studies. Yes,   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 12:36 yes. Red Raiders. Go Red Raiders. Yeah, right.   Michael Hingson ** 12:40 Well, and I, I went to UC Irvine. I don't know, I still don't know if we have a much of a football team today. We have a good basketball team, but go anteaters anyway. So it's, it is interesting how our lives change and how we end up, how God gives us different opportunities? And then, of course, the issue really is us taking those opportunities and moving forward with them. When you You certainly did. You stepped out and you moved to the United States, you went to Texas Tech, you got your bachelor's, and where did you get your PhD?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 13:19 So I got my master's from Texas Tech, and I was, I also started to do my PhD in industrial engineering in Texas Tech, but unfortunately, I didn't finish, because the the department ran out of funding, and I had to search for a job. So I started to, I got my job in 3m as an industrial engineer. But I also did an internship in another company called Rodia, which is a chemicals manufacturing company. But then, you know, while I was doing, while I was, you know, still pursuing my full time job, I really wanted to go back to Texas Tech and complete my PhD, because I had completed all my coursework, except for the which was the dissertation which was pending. And you know, at that time, one of the professors told me, quadra, try and complete your PhD, otherwise you will regret it. I still remember his words to this day. I should have, you know, looking back, I should have stayed back in Texas Tech and finished my PhD. I should have, you know, borrowed some more money and finished my PhD in industrial engineering in Texas Tech. But nevertheless, what I did is I did my doctorate, professional doctorate in management studies in Indian School of Business Management. So slightly different. But, you know, I didn't, I didn't actually want to go for an MBA. So I want I did the doctorate in management studies because I was more interested in organizational behavior, operations. Management in that field. So I got it in 2012   Michael Hingson ** 15:07 Wow. So you, you, you did complete it, even though, again, it went in a slightly different direction. But what was your interest that that took you into a little bit more of a business oriented environment, because you had clearly been in mechanical engineering and in that discipline for most of your studies.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 15:25 Yes, yes. So, you know, when I was doing my master's degree in Industrial Engineering, you know, and I got interested in continuous improvement, lean, Six Sigma, transformation, change management in that field, more as I was doing my masters in industrial engineering. And then when I got my first job in in 3m 3m is a great company, as you know, you know, I learned all the basics of my lean, Six Sigma change management, you know, hands on in 3m and I'm still grateful to this day that my very first job was in 3am actually, it's a funny story, because, you know, I got the job in 3m on the same day I was interviewed. So the I was very lucky. I think the the line manager really liked me, and he said, kwaja, I'm going to hire you on the spot. So I was, I was really, really, you know, ecstatic on that day, and I still remember that feeling to this day, yes. So what interested me to coming back to your question was when I was working in 3m they have a good mentorship program. So they asked me, you know, how do you want your career to be? You know, where do you see yourself in five years? In 10 years? In 15 years? How do you see yourself growing? And I said, I want to grow in the technical field. I want to become like a subject matter expert in Lean, Six Sigma, Black Belt, Master, Black Belt. And I want to grow in the technical field. And I remember the mentor, she told me, kwaja, while that's a good thought, but you will not grow much if you are purely technical, you will grow more if you combine your technical expertise with management, how to lead people, how to manage people, how to do change management with people so she actually, you know, planted the seed in me to do more of, you know, people management role. And for that, she prompted me to do more courses in people management, leading teams, how to work and collaborate with, you know, cross functional teams. And that interested me, and I started to search for courses that would give me that exposure. And then, you know, given the fact that also I took some courses in my master's, or when I was doing my PhD in industrial engineering, it prompted me more to move away from technical rather than getting a PhD in industrial engineering, to do adopt rate in management studies. And hence I, you know, slightly moved into the people management, operations management, into the softer stuff of managing people and getting stuff done through people, through others.   Michael Hingson ** 18:14 Well, nothing, nothing wrong with that. I know my background was in physics. But along the way, there came a time that I was confronted with an opportunity to take a job that wasn't directly related to physics, and I chose to do it. But out of that, I ended up being put in a situation once where I had to make a choice to either go find a new job or change from doing kind of human factors studies and other things related to a product going in instead into sales, and I chose to go into sales, but my reasoning was, It's difficult enough for blind people to get jobs. Finding a new job would be really a challenge, whereas an opportunity was being offered, and it was a good opportunity, so I accepted it. So again, I know that many times we do find that there is a an opportunity that comes along that maybe we don't expect, and if we take it, it's the right way to go.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 19:14 Yes indeed. And your story has been fascinating, Michael, to be honest with you, it has been, you know, it's very inspirational. Your story, me and my wife, we were sharing, you know, how you how you overcame adversity, that's really, really, really inspirational.   Michael Hingson ** 19:33 Well, thank you. And I, I appreciate that. And you know, to me, it's just how we live life, and we sometimes we're presented with challenges and and we have to deal with those challenges, which is, of course, our role, and if we don't, then we're the losers for doing it. Well, in your case, did you ever have a defining moment or a situation where, if, since we call this unstoppable mindset, where. Kind of a mindset really affected you and to help you through it.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 20:05 Yeah. I mean, many, many, many, many situations, there's never a dull day in continuous improvement, so it's full of challenges. Always, always. You know, in every organization I have worked for, there have been challenges in terms of, you know, how to deploy continuous improvement, how to take people with you in the journey of continuous improvement. But one of the things you know early on, when I was doing my my master's degree, is, you know, I think that that laid the foundation also for me to become more resilient and more adaptable. You know, when, when my department said they didn't have funding I wanted to, and this was, you know, when, when I was doing my master's degree, not, not, you know, when I went into my PhD, when I was doing my master's degree, after a semester, they said they didn't have enough funding. So a lot of my colleagues, you know, those who are in engineering, whether mechanical or industrial or or chemical or petroleum engineering, they would they were searching for jobs. I think it was the summer of 2001 and since it was summer, a lot of professors were on were on vacation, and I went door to door, knocking on every professor's, you know, Office, Office door. And almost everybody you know, kind of, you know, either shoot me away or said, you know, we don't have funding. Or, you know, their doors were closed because they were on vacation. So one of the, one of the things I did, you know, you know, I was very, very frustrated. I couldn't sleep. So I thought, What am I doing? What am I doing? What am I doing wrong here? Why am I not getting the funding. Why am I not getting a research assistantship? So as I was laying on my on my bed that that night, one evening, I thought to myself, and an idea came to me, why don't I go into Texas Tech University's Health Sciences Center, which is slightly far away. It's, you know, we have to walk, like, at least half an hour to get to the Texas Tech University's Health Sciences Center. And it's predominantly, you know, biology, Health Sciences Center. So nobody, none of my colleagues, had gone there to look for a job. So I thought, why not go there? Maybe I will find some luck. So initially, you know, I was told, No, you know, you don't have a biology background or, you know, we don't have jobs here. But on the third day, one professor, you know, as I was, I thought, you know, my day, on that day also is going to be a disappointment. Around five o'clock that evening, when I was about to go home and I noticed one professor's door was open. His name is branch Schneider, so if he's, if he's watching, you know, I'm grateful to him also for this brand Schneider. He is the professor in oncology department in Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center. So I approached him, his door was open, and I told him, I'm searching for a job. Any job? Would you be able to give me a job? He thought, he thought about it, and without hesitation, you know, he said, I do have a job, but you may not like it. And he said, You know, it's it involves washing dishes, bakers. Are you comfortable in doing it? I said, I thought about it, and I said, I can do it if it helps me to get in state tuition. And he also thought about it, and he said, Yeah, I think that should not be a problem. And once I agreed to do that, then he said, I don't want you to just do that. I want to use your engineering skills to help me with research. You know, doing some reports, research, reports and analysis using your engineering skills. Would you be able to do that? I said, That's my specialty. I would be glad to do that. So, you know, one thing led to another, and then, you know, he gave me the research assistantship, and you know, I was able to continue with my with my master's degree without, you know, burdening my parents. Because, you know, I had got a huge loan to go to the US, as you know, going to the US during those times is not, is not cheap. It's very expensive. So, you know, I think that's what, that's what laid the foundation. So I thought, you know, nothing is impossible. So if I can do that, I think I can convince people to do change management, at least my change management skills, and, you know, my Lean Six Sigma skills to do the continuous improvement in organizations. So I think that one moment, I think, was, you know, when, when I got that. I didn't realize that, you know, when I got back to my room and I told my friends that, you know, I had got this job, everybody's jaw dropped. They said, You have done something impossible. So they said, you know, we are now going to go to Health Sciences Center also. So I think a lot of our engineering guys went and knocked doors in Health Sciences Center, and they began to get jobs there. I   Michael Hingson ** 25:24 remember once, one of the first jobs my brother ever got. He was, I think, in high school. He had gotten to high school, and he went to apply at a restaurant for a job, just to earn some money. And the owner said, Well, you know, let me think about it. Would you go outside and we got some weeds out in the in the area around the restaurant, would you just pull the weeds? And my brother said, Sure, why not? I don't have anything else to do. So he went out on like, in a half hour, he had, excuse me, he had pulled all the weeds. The manager came out and was just absolutely amazed that he had had done all of that. And he said, Well, okay, and I thought about it, I'll give you a job. And of course, he was really being tested. Would he go out and do whatever he was asked to do? Which Which he did do? And when he came home and told my parents, and I was there at the time about that, they said, you understand that this guy was just testing you to see whether you would do whatever needed to be done to help the restaurant. And you passed, and he got the job. We never know where things are going to come from. And indeed, yes, we should be open and be willing to explore. It's always a good thing when we do that. I haven't thought about that in years, but you just reminded me of that story, and it's a great story, and for me, it was a lesson that you've got to do sometimes different things, and when, when you're really asking for someone's assistance, you also need to look at what they're asking you to do, and you need to do what they're asking   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 27:01 yes, unless it's to shoot No, I'm not going to go out and   Michael Hingson ** 27:07 shoot someone. But that's a different story. But well, that's great. Well, now, while you were in the United States, you also went off and got married, huh?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 27:18 Yes, I did.   Michael Hingson ** 27:21 Well, that was a that was a good thing. That's another good reason to have come to the US. Yes, now, is your wife from India or the US?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 27:33 Well, it's a, it's an interesting story. Once again, we she, she is. She's two years younger to me, and, you know, we met at a birthday party, and in, you know, at a professor's daughter's birthday party. And I initially thought I knew her from somewhere, so I was very, very shy to to approach her. But then some of her, some of her friends, or, I think some of my friends who knew her, they asked me if you know I would be okay to drop them to their house. So when I was, when I was driving, I looked at her through the, you know, the rear view mirror, yeah, and I, I liked her a lot, so, but I didn't know whether she was looking at me at that time or not. But then later, I told her that I was looking at you when I was driving. And then, you know, one thing led to another, and you know, we dated. She's from India, so she was also doing her master's degree. When, when, you know, at the time, you know, I was doing an internship in in a chemicals manufacturing company in Vernon, Texas, which is in the middle of nowhere. And I used to drive three hours from Vernon to Lubbock because I thought Lubbock was in the middle of nowhere. But then, when I was when I was working in Vernon, which is just no like a small town of 10,000 people, then when I used to drive back to Lubbock, it was like heaven, Paradise. I could see many people in Lubbock. So when I was driving back and forth. And I was in, I met her in this, in this party, and then we started to date. And then, you know, we got, we got married in the US in 2000 we were dating for a very long time. We lived together also for for a long time, we got to know each other. And then we got married in 2008   Michael Hingson ** 29:42 Ah, well, that's great. Congratulations. How long have you been married now? Thank you.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 29:48 Well. We have known each other now for 21 years since 2004 Yes, and we have been married since 2008 so 17 years. Wow. Congratulations. Thank you, thank you. And we have a son, 15 years old. And yeah, we, we are still, you know, happily married to each other, and she, you know, she has been a great support for me, not only in times of happiness, but but especially, you know, when I get frustrated, when when I'm not in such a good mood, or when I feel dejected, she has supported me tremendously, and she's still supporting me tremendously, but   Michael Hingson ** 30:30 I bet that goes both ways.   30:33 Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 30:35 you have to be more stable than you.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 30:41 Yes, well, I think she's more emotionally matured also. Then I don't want to tell her that, but she may know after this podcast   Michael Hingson ** 30:52 well. So you do a lot of work in working with people involved in resistance and change and continuous improvement, and you deal with people with resistance and change. How do you push back? And how do you push beyond that? How do you get people who are so resistive to change to to agreeing to change? You know, the reason I ask is that we all we all hear people talk all the time about how change is important. Changes is necessary, but none of us really want to change. How do you deal with that?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 31:26 Yes, so, you know, over the years, this is what, this is what I have learned also. And you know, I, I did my masters, my second masters in psychology, and that helped me a great deal. Also, I've always been, you know, fascinated with the psychology of human behavior. So I always wondered, you know, even when working in 3m or in my first company as an intern, I always wondered, you know, why? You know, even if a change is good, why are people resisting? And years and years passed by, I always, I always thought that, you know, we can, we can always convince people with rational, logical stuff, with data. But then I found out, you know, through through trial and error, I don't get convinced using logic. I have my own ways to resist. So when I learned about how I am resisting, I thought that's natural. Then how people, other people would resist. Because, you know my girlfriend at that time, who is my wife. Now, when she used to suggest something I would resist, that. She would say, quarter, you're not organized, you know, let's, let's get the house organized. And I would resist it because, you know, getting organized is a good thing, but then I had my own way of doing stuff. So, you know, to this day, I still resist, by the way, and she's still trying to convince me to get organized, but you know, I know why I resist. You know why I'm resisting. I know how I resist. So you know that, that you know early on, helped me, that, you know, people resist because we are trying to change them. It's not the change, but it's we are trying to change them into something that they don't want to so, for example, you know, one of the one of the line managers, or one of the leaders in a company that I worked for, he was completely against continuous improvement. He was telling me, I have been doing continuous improvement quadra, for 20 years, I don't need you to come and tell me how to do my job and how to improve it. And he was very open about it. I'm so glad he was. He was so open about it. Because, you know, I have also seen people who resist very covertly. They would say yes in front of you, and then, you know, go back and do their own stuff, or, you know, they won't do anything at all. So I wanted to understand him, why he felt that way. And, you know, I went on, you know, plant walks with him, and he was very proud when we were when we were walking around the plant, he showed me all the improvements that he did. So I told him, Bill, his name is Bill, what you're doing is continuous improvement. Bill, so I'm not trying to tell you to do your job. I'm here to tell you how to I'm here to help you how to do your job in a more structured way. And that's what CI is all about. So when I said that, immediately, he said, you know, guaja, I wish somebody you know, in your place, had told me that earlier, because people who had before you, who came before you, they were all about tools and templates. And I hate to use tools and templates. I'm more of a practical guy. So then that was a learning for me, also that, you know, that was an aha moment for me, that people, you know, certain people, have. Certain way of learning, and certain people have certain way of improving, but we all want to improve. So if we guide people in the right direction, and we talk their language, you know, we use their frame of reference, we use their language and and we see what are their pain points, and we try to help them overcome those pain points, then people would naturally, you know, you know, get the we would get the buy in for for the change, and people would not resist so much. So at the end, you know, what happened is Bill became a huge supporter of CI, not only a huge supporter of CI, he passed my green belt exam. Also, I coached him, and he passed my green belt exam. And he was, he was very happy. Initially, he was, he was, he was reluctant to even attend my course. But then, you know, after he went through the course, and then, you know, after we built the rapport. And then I, and then I told him, I'm not trying to replace you or, or I'm not trying to steal your job or, or I'm not telling trying to, you know, tell you how to do your job, because that's not what I'm here for. I'm here to help you. And continuous improvement is a more structured way of doing things, because you may be doing in trial and error, and by doing trial and error, you know, you may be making some costly mistakes, but when we apply it in a structured way, we can avoid 19 99% of errors, most of the time. So he really liked that approach. And he liked my approach of making things very, very practical, not speaking, you know, in heavy technical terms, not using the jargon and explaining it to him, you know, in his own language. That's what helped, you know, reduce the resistance. And over the years, what I have done is also, you know, adapt my way of how I'm approaching resistance. One of the courses which I took, and it was a certification course, also was, you know, instead of waiting for resistance to happen to you, we should approach resistance proactively. You know, when we announce a change, we should naturally expect resistance, and when we have resistance, it's a good thing. I have never, I never heard about it before, before I attended the course. I thought always resistance is bad. I thought resistance is something that we need to fight. We need to convince people, and those people who resist, they don't know what they're talking about. I used to see them as, you know, almost like enemies at workplace. This guy is against CI, why doesn't he or she gets CI, why are they, you know, resisting so much. Why are they criticizing me so much? I used to take it personally also. Later, I learned, you know, not to take things personally as well. So what I what I found, was that we should surface resistance proactively, whether you know it is in work life or in personal life, you know, when we are trying to do something out of the ordinary. When we are trying to improve something, we should expect resistance. And if there is no resistance, then that means either the resistance has gone underground, right, which has gone into COVID stage, or people have not understood the why. You know, what is this change? What is this? How is this going to affect me, people have not understood what you're talking about. So when we explain things, we should naturally expect resistance, and resistance helps in improving, you know, what is whatever we are trying to implement, you know, whether it is like a ERP implementation or, you know, Lean Six Sigma, or a transformation project, digital transformation, anything that we are trying to do, if people are resisting or if people are expressing concerns, it's a good thing. That's what I have learned over the years. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 38:50 at least, at least then they're open and they're talking to you about it, which is important. So how do you deal with the person who says, you know, like, like, Bill, I've been involved in continuous improvement, and maybe they really have, but you're talking about change, but in reality, what we have is working, and I'm not convinced that changing it is really going to make a difference. And you know, how do you deal with that?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 39:21 Yep, again, you know, over the years, I have so many stories this. This story, again, is some of the organizations I have worked in this. This particular person was, was saying the same thing. You know, it was one of the TETRA pack manufacturing lines, you have seen the TETRA pack, right? So the the TETRA pack where juice is packed, or milk is packed, or any beverage is packed, right? So these Tetra packs, when they were producing those Tetra packs of juice, they had. An issue of the juice packs being either overweight or underweight. So they had this continuous issue on the line, not just one line, but I think three or four of the lines, so consistently, it would be either overweight or underweight. And if you are consistent, if you are having the overweight or underweight, you would be audited, and you would get into all sorts of trouble. And moreover, you know, you're losing money if you if the pack is overweight and if the pack is underweight, somebody can, can, you know, file a claim. Customer complaints would increase. So this, this particular line manager, he said, you know he was, he was avoiding me. And I know that he would, he would avoid me so, but he, you know, at that point of time, he had no choice. So he said, kwaja, I have a few ideas, you know, I don't before, you know, you come and tell me, you know, continuous improvement, blah, blah, blah. I have a few ideas. I want to test them. And he gave me, he gave me, you know, the his thought process, and he wanted to try that before, you know, he before he agreed to listen to me. So I said, Bob, I'm all for it, please. Please, go ahead and let's see whether you know what you're trying to do. Works or not. So basically, in, you know, in our language, what we call it as as an experiment in continuous improvement terminology, we call it as an experiment. He was trying to do, you know, an experiment with one factor at a time, meaning that, you know, he would try to change one variable, and he would try to see whether that has any impact on, you know, the over overfilled packs or under filled packs. So he wanted to change one variable at a time, and there were three, four variables at that time, which he thought were, you know, suspects. So he wanted to change those variables and see what the impact would be. So I told him, Bob, yeah, let's, let's, let's try that. And I told him, you know, very politely, if that doesn't work, would you be willing to try what I am asking you to do? Because I have an idea. Also, he said, Yeah, let's, let's, let's do that. So I worked with him. I worked with him on the line, with his supervisors also. And he tried, you know, one factor at a time. He trained. He changed this, he changed that. It didn't work. So reluctantly. But then the good thing was, he was open minded also, reluctantly, he said, Okay, let's, let's sit in my office and let's talk. So I told him about a concept called Design of Experiments, DOE, in that, in that me using that you know, methodology, you can basically, you can basically have three, four factors which you can vary them simultaneously, and then see the impact on over packing and under packing. So when I explained to him, when I when I taught him about the concept him and his supervisors and the line operators, he said, Yeah, let's let's try. Let's see if this works. And at the end of the day, we were both trying to improve the process. We were both trying to get rid of this problem, sure, so we should be rolling. And then it worked within, within a few days, the problem got resolved. So what I learned from that is, sometimes, you know, you need to let people you know hit the wall before you offer them a solution. So that's something that I have learned. But of course, you know, in this case, it was not such a costly mistake. It was not, it was not like a disaster, but it was the controlled disaster. So, so what   Michael Hingson ** 43:28 was the actual change? What what change was made that fixed the problem? Or what was your idea that fixed the problem because he was changing variable at a time, but that was one example   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 43:39 at a time. Yep. So we had to do the root cause analysis. And through the root cause analysis, whatever variables that he was going after were not the root causes because he was not using a structured methodology. Okay, when we use the structured methodology, we went into root cause analysis. We did a structured like a fish bone diagram. I don't want to go into the technical details, but we did the in depth root cause analysis, and then we did something called as a design of experiment, where we chose three factors and we varied it simultaneous, so it is a controlled experiment which we did, and immediately, you know, it's not that you know you would do that, and you would get result. One month later, you would get results immediately, you would see the result immediately when you do that experiment versus what he did, it involved a certain bit of time. It would take one week for us to see a change. So when I showed him this and this versus this, he was really impressed. And from that day onwards, he became a huge supporter of CI, in fact, you know, the plant in which I was working in, you know, with the support of, you know, one of the plant managers, Tim, his name, I'm I'm still, you know, in touch with him, and you know we share thoughts with each other. I see him as a huge mentor. Also, you know, we got plant of the Year Award for a plant to talk. About to be shut down, back in 2009 so that's, that's, you know, how we were able to, you know, build the, get the buy in from all the line managers and, you know, get started on the continuous improvement journey. Because the the the management had told that if you don't improve within a few months, you would be shut down. So we all work together, and we did experiments like this, and we were able to turn around a plant, of course, you know, not just me, so I just played one small role in that we did as a team. It was a team effort,   Michael Hingson ** 45:34 and that's how you really overcome resistance to change when, when people see that you bring something to the table that works, then they're probably more apt to want to listen to you.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 45:49 Yep, indeed. We need to know what we're talking about. You know that that builds trust? Definitely.   Michael Hingson ** 45:54 Yeah. And then the issue is that you what you're talking about is is, in a sense, different than what they understand, and it's a matter of establishing credibility. Yes, which is, which is pretty cool. Well, so tell me about your books. You've written two books, and you've written I n, s, p, i R, E, and you've, you've written another book, tell us about those.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 46:25 Yes, so I, you know, I have always wanted to share my knowledge, and I have always been sharing my knowledge, you know, through training, through coaching, I have conducted so many training sessions, so many and I have learned also, you know, from from shop floor employees, frontline employees, from middle managers. I have learned so much from them. And also executives, top executives, you know, leaders from various industries. You know whether it is manufacturing or logistics or, you know, back offices, banking, you know, pure manufacturing or logistics container, container shipping business, or aluminum rolling business. So I wanted to write this book to share my knowledge, because when I see that change management or change is being implemented very poorly, that really frustrates me. So I wanted to share this, and I have seen, you know, numerous books being written on this. You know, numerous frameworks, also, you name it. You know, there are so many books out there. What I wanted to do is give a simple framework, which is, I, N, s, p, i, R, E, which is, you know, if you have to implement change you need to inspire employees. There are no two ways about it. If we can talk about logic, we can talk about change management, we can talk about what's in it. For me, everything, but in my experience, if anyone is, if any employee or if any individual is not inspired by the change, the change is not going to go anywhere. They may do out of compliance, but we will not really get their hearts in it. And that's why I, you know, came up with this framework called Inspire, which is I basically is inspired the need for change in employees. N is navigate the organization and build a coalition. And stands for that. S is to surface resistance proactively, meaning, as we discussed, don't wait for resistance to hit you. You know when you least expect it, and then, and then, you know the change goes nowhere. Surface resistance proactively. And P is plan, your implementation. You know, when I say plan, not just, you know, like a, like a 20 step bullet point, there are so many plans that need, that need to come together, like a communication plan, resistance management plan, a training plan. There are so many plans that need to work together. And again, depending on the complexity of the change, you know, I never advocate, you know, over complicating stuff. And then you have, I, which is implementation When, when, you know, this is where rubber meets the road, if we don't implement the change in a structured way, you know, leaders are not role modeling on the shop floor. Leaders are just, you know, we call it as EMR. And this is, again, from another framework called Aim. Aim, you know, basically what we what we mean here is you can express. Leaders can express about the change, role model the change and reinforce the change. EMR, so if leaders are just expressing the change, it will lead to one times the improvement, but if leaders are role modeling the change, it will lead to three. Times the change acceleration. And if leaders are reinforcing the change, it will lead to 10 times accelerating the change. So that's what I talk about, in terms of implementation, you know, experimentation and stuff, which is i, and then you have reinforce and sustain, which is r, and then E stands for evaluating and learning. You know, after we close a change initiative, after we signed off on a change initiative, have what have we learned from it? What have we learned from it, and what, what if we had a, if we had a chance to make a do over, what would we do differently? What have we learned from it? And what would we do differently, and if we were to do implement another change, what are the learnings that we can take from this change that we have implemented and apply the learnings in our next change? And also, you know when, when leadership transitions, many, many changes, what? What happens? And you know this is what I have experienced, and this frustrates me a lot as well. Is, you know, when leadership changes, the change gets, you know, messed up. I want to say fucked up, but you know, and I don't know if I'm allowed to say that. You know, every leader, every leader, wants to come in and you know, right or wrong? You know, I'm not blaming a leader wants to leave their mark in the organization, which is good, but what they what they inadvertently do, is undo the change which their predecessors have done. And then people get confused, you know, they say it as a flavor of the month. Or they say, Okay, let's wait until this leader moves on, so that, you know, we can, we can, you know, just wait until this change passes away and it leads to, you know, production of morale and lots of issues. So this is what I talk about in my book, as well, how to avoid these, these situations. So it's like a practical framework where you know which anybody can take and apply to any change of any complexity, and you know if, even if it is very, very simple change which is going to take maybe 10 days or five days only, they can quickly go through the Inspire framework and see, you know, what are the gaps and whether we have, whether we are implementing the change in a proper, structured way. And these are in this is just a framework, you know, and you know, we don't have to use all the tools that I have mentioned in the book. We can pick and choose the tools which are relevant for the change that we are trying to implement.   Michael Hingson ** 52:38 What is the the key to making change sustainable when maybe leadership changes or the company environment shifts,   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 52:48 yes. So, you know, as Dr Deming said, constancy of purpose, right? So, so if I'm a leader, Mike, and you know, if I'm changing my role, and if I'm going to, you know another function or another department, whether in the same organization or in a different organization, and let's say that you know, Mike, you are taking over my role. What is the constancy of purpose? You know? Are we? Does the organization, you know, it starts from our organization level. Does the organization have a constancy of purpose, and is it aligned with the vision and mission and whatever I have, whatever changes I have implemented, have I communicated them to you? Is there a smooth handover between me and you, so that you understand what are the changes I have done, what are the improvements I have done, and you know how you can take it forward and continuously improve upon it. So one thing is completely undoing and the other thing is continuously improving upon it. So that, you know, people see it as a natural, continuous improvement, rather than continue, rather than, you know, abruptly undoing something and then, and then, you know, starting from, you know, scratch, starting from scratch, and saying that, Oh, no, no, no, no, whatever this person did is total crap. And now we are going to change or revolutionize the whole organization where, which, you know, nine out of 10 times is, is, you know, you're just rehashing what this person has done into something new, into, you know, a different framework or a different bottle, however you want to frame it. So the there has to be a smooth hand over. So that's, that's, you know, point number one, and point number two is the the employees, the middle managers have the middle managers and the in the whole leadership team. They have an obligation. They have a accountability to make sure that, you know, they are aligned, to make sure that if one of their leadership team members is moving on, whenever a new leadership team member comes on board, to onboard them in a structured way, not to leave them, you know, hanging, not to, you know, not to let that person. Know, implement his or her own way completely. You know, let on board them and let them know what has happened in the organization. How they can, you know, continuously improve upon it. I'm not saying that, you know, revolutionary change is not required all. I'm saying that there are times when a revolution is required, but most of the times, continuous improvement is good enough. You know, when, when we, when we continuously improve. It keeps the continuity going. And people don't see it as you know, change after change after change. You know, we don't, we don't induce change fatigue in the organizations if we, if we do it as a continuum   Michael Hingson ** 55:40 makes sense, and it's all about and it's all about communication, yep,   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 55:44 indeed. And that's where, you know, that's why I have written my second book, which is, which is about active listening. You know, I'm a bad listener, I have to be honest. So I used to be a very, very bad listener. Now I'm just a bad listener. So I have continuously improved on my listening skills, and at least I know now that you know, I'm aware of my how I need to improve my listening skills. So over the years, I have done, I have I have learned the techniques of how to listen and when and when I say listen, it is not to many people, many of us, you know, even even now. Also sometimes I catch myself, you know, trying to listen to reply or listen to respond. So when I catch myself doing that, I consciously, you know, try to listen to the person. So again, in this book, I have shared, you know, the the techniques which would help anybody to become a better listener, which, you know, one is one of the requirements for being a great leader, how to listen to people and how to listen to people, truly, truly listen to people. So I talk about simple, simple techniques in the book. You know, for example, paraphrasing, remembering, listening without judgment, right? Or suspending judgment, as I say so. You know, I rank these techniques in increasing order of complexity, suspending judgment being the most difficult, you know when, when someone starts speaking, or, you know, even if, even when we see someone immediately, in the first five seconds, we judge that person. And, you know, right or wrong, we judge that we and in this book, also, I talk about, you know, why we are prone to judging people, and why we have such a such a difficult time in suspending judgment. So if we are aware that you know, let's say that you know when I'm talking to you, Mike, if I catch myself judging you right, so at least I know that I'm Judging You right. So at least I can I know that I'm judging you, and I should not do that. I should listen to you, and I should try to understand where you are coming from, instead of saying, instead of just thinking in my mind, oh, whatever Mike is saying is it doesn't make any sense. So maybe initially it may not make sense. But you know, when we open our ears, we have two years, and that's for a reason, and only one mouth. So we need to listen, and we need to completely understand where the other person is coming from, whether you know it is in personal life or in work life. You know, when we, if we don't listen to the teams whom we are managing, and if we just say, you know, do as I say, it's my way or the highway, people will do because you know you are their line manager. But it won't last long. No, the minute you, you know, change your team, or the minute you go out, people will, people will be, you know, good riddance. So, so that's what they'll be thinking. So how to listen to people, and also it will help the leader to grow. You know, over the years, when I listen to my wife, I have understood my own shortcomings, and if I had listened to her 20 years back, maybe I would have been a different person. Maybe, maybe I would have been a more mature person. So this is what, you know, I talk about in the in the book as well. How can we truly, truly listen? And some techniques like paraphrasing. You know, when, when our mind wanders, you know, it will be good to paraphrase the person to whom you're you're speaking so that you know you you remember, so remembering, paraphrasing, empathy, for example, you know, not just talking about KPI, KPI KPIs to the team members. Understand how they're doing. You know, are they having any personal issues? How is their family? You know, work is not, you know what, what? Work is a part of our life. But you know, we spend eight to 10 hours at at a workplace. So we need to know the team members whom we are managing, and we need to listen to them. If somebody is, you know, performing badly, right? It's very easy to give them a negative feedback. But. So if we listen to them, and if they feel heard, maybe they are going through something, or maybe they are not getting enough support. If we listen to them, and if we create that environment of active listening in the whole team, suspending judgment and listening actively, then we create a more stronger bond, and the team would would become like a world class team. This has been my experience. So this is what I have shared in my, in my in my second book,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:29 and certainly words to to remember. Well, we have been doing this an hour now, and I think it's probably time that we we end it for the day. But if people want to reach out to you. How can they do that?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 1:00:43 Well, I am there on on LinkedIn, and people can reach me through email, and I'll be more than happy to, you know, respond to anything they need. And I'm I know if people want to reach out to me to conduct any training sessions, my website is also their journey towards excellence. You know where I have my offerings. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:04 what is the website? What is the website called, again, journey towards excellence. Journey towards excellence.com, okay, and your email address, khwaja.moinuddin@gmail.com and spell that, if you would   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 1:01:21 Yes, please. K, H, W, A, j, A, dot, M, O, I n, u, d, d, I n@gmail.com,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:32 great. Well, I hope people will reach out. I think you've offered a lot of great insights and inspiration for people. I appreciate hearing all that you had to say, and I knew I was going to learn a lot today and have and I always tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as everyone else, I'm not doing my job right. So I really appreciate your time, and it's now getting late where you are, so we're going to let you go. But I want to thank you again for being here, and I do want to thank everyone who is listening and watching us today. We really appreciate it. If you would, I'd love it. If you'd give us a five star review. Wherever you're watching us and listening to us, if you'd like to talk to me or email me about the episode and give us your thoughts, feel free to do so. At Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, or go to our podcast page. Michael Hinkson, that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, love to hear from you if any of you have any thoughts as to someone else who might make a good podcast guest. And quad you as well. Would love it if you let us know we're always looking for more people to come on and be guests on the show. But again, kwaja, I want to thank you for being here. This has been wonderful.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 1:02:47 Thank you. Thank you so much, Mike, and it's been a real pleasure talking to you, and it's an honor to be part of your podcast. I wish I had met you earlier and learned I would have learned so much from you, I would definitely, definitely, definitely, you know, reach out to you to learn more. And you know, thank you for the opportunity. Thank you definitely for the opportunity.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:03:15   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to inter

The above title does not do Dan Swift justice. Dan also has his own podcast, successful Youtube channel and he has released seven music albums. Talk about being unstoppable! I met Dan when I appeared as a guest on his podcast, Time We Discuss and I knew he would contribute to a fascinating story here.   Dan grew up with an interest in music. For a time he thought he wanted to write music for video games. Along the way he left that idea behind and after graduating from college he began working at designing websites. He has made that into his fulltime career.   As he grew as a website designer and later as a supervisor for a school system coordinating and creating the school sites Dan took an interest in accessibility of the web. We talk quite a bit about that during our time together. His observations are fascinating and right on where web access for persons with disabilities is concerned.   We also talk about Dan's podcast including some stories of guests and what inspires Dan from his interviews. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I.       About the Guest:   Originally wanting to write music for video games or become an audio engineer, Dan Swift graduated from a small Liberal Arts college with a degree in Music Composition (Bachelor of Arts) and Music Recording Technology (Bachelor of Music).  Dan went on to release seven EP albums between 2003 and 2024. Most recently, "Parallels" dropped on Leap Day, 2024.  Dan has always had a passion for shaking up genres between Eps writing classical, electronic, and modern rock music.   While creating music has always been a passion, Dan took a more traditional professional path as a web developer. While on this path, Dan had a lot of experience with accessibility standards as it relates to the web and he values accessibility and equity for everyone both inside and outside the digital workspace. Having received his MBA during COVID, Dan went on to a leadership position where he continues to make a difference leading a team of tech-savvy web professionals.   In early 2024, I created a podcast and YouTube channel called "Time We Discuss" which focuses on career exploration and discovery. The channel and podcast are meant for anyone that is feeling lost professionally and unsure of what is out there for them. Dan feels that it is important for people to discover their professional passion, whatever it is that lights them up on the inside, and chase it. So many people are unfulfilled in their careers, yet it doesn't have to be this way.   When not working, Dan enjoys spending time with his wife and three kids. They are a very active family often going to various extracurricular events over the years including flag football, soccer, gymnastics, and school concerts.  Dan's wife is very active with several nonprofit organizations including those for the betterment of children and homelessness.  Dan enjoys playing the piano, listening to podcasts, and listening to music.  Dan is very naturally curious and is a slave to a train of never-ending thoughts.   Ways to connect with Dan:   Time We Discuss on YouTube Time We Discuss on Spotify Time We Discuss on Twitter/X Time We Discuss on Instagram Time We Discuss on BlueSky   Time We Discuss Website Dan Swift Music Website   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everybody. Welcome once again. Wherever you may be, to unstoppable mindset, I am your host, Mike hingson, sometimes I say Michael hingson, and people have said, Well, is it Mike or Michael? And the answer is, it doesn't really matter. It took a master's degree in physics and 10 years in sales for me to realize that if I said Mike Hingson on the phone, people kept calling me Mr. Kingston, and I couldn't figure out why, so I started saying Michael Hingson, and they got the hinckson part right, but it doesn't matter to me. So anyway, Mike hingson, or Michael hingson, glad you're with us, wherever you are, and our guest today is Dan Swift, who has his own pine podcast, and it was actually through that podcast that we met, and I told him, but I wouldn't do it with him and be on his podcast unless he would be on unstoppable mindset. And here he is. Dan is a person who writes music, he's an engineer. He does a lot of work with web design and so on, and we're going to get into all that. So Dan, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Dan Swift ** 02:25 Michael, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. I am. I'm super excited.   Michael Hingson ** 02:30 Well, looking forward to getting to spend more time with you. We did yours time to discuss, and now we get this one. So it's always kind of fun. So, and Dan is in Pennsylvania, so we're talking across the continent, which is fine. It's amazing what we can do with electronics these days, telling us not like the good old days of the covered wagon. What can I say? So, So Dan, why don't you tell us a little bit about kind of the early Dan, growing up and all that.   Dan Swift ** 02:57 Oh, geez. How far   Michael Hingson ** 02:58 back to go? Oh, as far as you want to go,   Dan Swift ** 03:02 Well, okay, so I am, I am the youngest of five. Grew up just outside of Philadelphia as being the youngest. You know, there are certain perks that go along with that. I get to experience things that my parents would have previous said no to the older siblings. And you know how it is with with, you know, if you have more than one kid, technically, you get a little more relaxed as you have more but then I also had the other benefit of, you know, hearing the expression, there are young ears in the room, I will tell you later. So I kind of got some of that too. But I grew up outside of Philadelphia, had a passion for music. Pretty early on. I was never good at any sports. Tried a number of things. And when I landed on music, I thought, you know, this is this is something that I can do. I seem to have a natural talent for it. And I started, I tried playing the piano when I was maybe eight or nine years old. That didn't pan out. Moved on to the trumpet when I was nine or 10. Eventually ended up picking up guitar, bass, guitar, double bass revisited piano later in life, but that's the musical side of things. Also, when I was young, you know, I had a passion for role playing games, Dungeons and Dragons, was really big when I was a teenager, so I was super excited for that. Yeah, that's, that's kind of those, those memories kind of forced me, or kind of shaped me into the person that I am today. I'm very light hearted, very easy going, and I just try to enjoy life.   Michael Hingson ** 04:30 I played some computer games when computers came along and I started fiddling with them, the games I usually played were text based games. I've never really played Dungeons and Dragons and some of those. And I I'm sure that there are accessible versions of of some of that, but I remember playing games like adventure. You remember? Have you heard of adventure? I have, yeah. So that was, that was fun. Info con made. Well, they had Zork, which was really the same as adventure, but they. At a whole bunch of games. And those are, those are fun. And I think all of those games, I know a lot of adults would probably say kids spend too much time on some of them, but some of these games, like the the text based games, I thought really were very good at expanding one's mind, and they made you think, which is really what was important to me? Yeah, I   Dan Swift ** 05:21 completely agree with that too. Because you'd be put in these situations where, you know true, you're trying to solve some kind of puzzle, and you're trying to think, Okay, well, that didn't work, or that didn't work, and you try all these different things, then you decide to leave and come back to and you realize later, like you didn't have something that you needed to progress forward, or something like that. But, but it really gets the brain going, trying to create with these, uh, come up with these creative solutions to progress the game forward. Yeah, which   Michael Hingson ** 05:43 and the creative people who made them in the first place? What did they? Yeah, they, I don't know where they, where they spent their whole time that they had nothing to do but to create these games. But hey, it worked. It sure. Did you know you do it well. So you went off to college. Where'd you go? Sure,   Dan Swift ** 06:02 I went to a small liberal arts college, Lebanon Valley College in Pennsylvania. It's near, it's near Hershey. It was, it was weird in that my the entire school was about half the size of my entire high school. So that was very, very weird. And then you talk to these other people. And it's like, my high school was, you know, very large by comparison. But for me, it was like, well, high school, that's what I knew. But yeah, it was I went to, I went to 11 Valley College near Hershey. I studied, I was a double major. I studied music composition and music recording,   Michael Hingson ** 06:35 okay, and, oh, I've got to go back and ask before we continue that. So what were some of the real perks you got as a kid that your your older siblings didn't get?   Dan Swift ** 06:45 Oh, geez, okay. I mean,   Michael Hingson ** 06:49 couldn't resist, yeah, probably, probably   Dan Swift ** 06:51 some of the more cliche things. I probably got to spend the night at a friend's house earlier than my oldest brother. For instance, I know my parents were a little more concerned about finances. So I know my oldest brother didn't get a chance to go away to college. He did community college instead. And then, kind of, my sister was a very similar thing. And then once we got, like, about halfway down, you know, me and my two other brothers, we all had the opportunity to go away to college. So I think that was, that was definitely one of the perks. If I was the oldest, I was the oldest, I probably wouldn't have had that opportunity with my family. Got   Michael Hingson ** 07:24 it well, so you went off and you got a matt a bachelor's in music, composition and music recording. So that brought you to what you were interested in, part, which was the engineering aspect of it. But that certainly gave you a pretty well rounded education. Why those two why composition and recording? Sure.   Dan Swift ** 07:43 So if we talk about the music first at that time, so this is like the the late 90s, early 2000s any kind of digital music that was out there really was, was MIDI based, and anyone that was around that time and paying attention, it was like these very like, like that music kind of sound to it. So there wasn't a whole lot going on with MIDI. I'm sorry, with music as far as how great it sounded, or I shouldn't say, how great it sounded, the the instruments that are triggered by MIDI, they didn't sound all that great. But around that time, there was this game that came out, Final Fantasy seven, and I remember hearing the music for that, and it was all, it was all electronic, and it was just blown away by how fantastic it sounded. And And around that time, I thought, you know, it'd be really cool to get into writing music for video games. And that was something I really kind of toyed with. So that was kind of in the back of my head. But also, at the time, I was in a band, like a rock band, and I thought, you know, I'm going to school. They have this opportunity to work as a music engineer, which is something I really wanted to do at the time. And I thought, free studio time. My band will be here. This will be awesome. And it wasn't until I got there that I discovered that they also had the music composition program. It was a I was only there maybe a week or two, and once I discovered that, I was like, Well, this is gonna be great, you know, I'll learn to write. Know, I'll learn to write music. I can write for video games. I'll get engineering to go with it. This is gonna be fantastic. Speaking   Michael Hingson ** 09:07 of electronic music, did you ever see a science fiction movie called The Forbidden Planet? I did not. Oh, it's music. It's, it's not really music in the sense of what what we call, but it's all electronic. You gotta, you gotta find it. I'm sure you can find it somewhere. It's called the Forbidden Planet. Walter pigeon is in it. But the music and the sounds fit the movie, although it's all electronic, and electronic sounding pretty interesting.   Dan Swift ** 09:37 Now, is that from, I know, like in the 50s, 60s, there was a lot of experiments. Okay, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 09:45 yeah, and, but again, it fit the movie, which was the important part. So it certainly wasn't music like John Williams today and and in the 80s and all that. But again, for the movie, it fit. Very well, which is kind of cool. Yeah,   Dan Swift ** 10:02 I'll definitely have to check that out. I remember when I was in school, we talked about like that, that avant garde kind of style of the the 50s, 60s. And there was a lot of weird stuff going on with electronics, electronic music. Um, so I'm very curious to see, uh, to check this out, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 10:14 You have to let me know what, what you find, what you think about it, when you get to chance to watch it, absolutely or actually, I I may have a copy. If I do, I'll put it in a dropbox folder and send you a link. Fantastic. So you graduated. Now, when did you graduate?   Dan Swift ** 10:32 Sure, so I graduated in 2003 okay,   Michael Hingson ** 10:35 so you graduated, and then what did you do? So,   Dan Swift ** 10:41 backing up about maybe 612, months prior to that, I decided I did not want to be a I didn't want to write music for video games. I also did not want to work in a recording studio. And the reason for this was for music. It was, I didn't it was, it was something I really, really enjoyed, and I didn't want to be put in a position where I had to produce music on demand. I didn't want to I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to lose my hobby, lose my passion in that way. So I decided that was out. And then also, when it came to working in a studio, if I wanted to be the engineer that I really wanted to be, I would have to be in a place where the music scene was really happening. So I'd have to be in like Philadelphia or Los Angeles or Nashville or deep in Philly or something like that. And I do not like the cities. I don't feel comfortable in the city. So I was like, that's not really for me either. I could work in like a suburb studio. But I was like, not, not for me. I don't, not for me. So when I graduated college, I ended up doing freelance web work. I had met through, through a mutual friend I was I was introduced to by a mutual friend, to a person that was looking for a new web designer, developer. They lost their person, and they were looking for someone to take over with that. And at the time, I did a little bit of experience doing that, from when I was in high school, kind of picked it up on the side, just kind of like as a hobby. But I was like, Ah, I'll give this a shot. So I started actually doing that freelance for a number of years after graduation. I also worked other jobs that was, like, kind of like nowhere, like dead end kind of jobs. I did customer service work for a little bit. I was a teacher with the American Cross for a little bit, a little bit of this and that, just trying to find my way. But at the same time, I was doing freelance stuff, and nothing related to music and nothing related to technology,   Michael Hingson ** 12:29 well, so you learned HTML coding and all that other stuff that goes along with all that. I gather, I   Dan Swift ** 12:35 sure did, I sure didn't. At the time, CSS was just kind of popular, yeah, so that. And then I learned, I learned JavaScript a little bit. And, you know, I had a very healthy attitude when it when it came to accepting new clients and projects, I always tried to learn something new. Anytime someone gave me a new a new request came in, it was like, Okay, well, I already know how to do this by doing it this way. But how can I make this better? And that was really the way that I really propelled myself forward in the in the digital, I should say, when it comes to development or design.   Michael Hingson ** 13:05 Okay, so you ended up really seriously going into website development and so on.   Dan Swift ** 13:15 I did. So I continued doing freelance. And then about five years after I graduated, I started working as an audio visual technician, and also was doing computer tech stuff as part of the role as well. And while I was there, I ended up developing some web applications for myself to use that I could use to interact with our like projectors and stuff like that. Because they were on, they were all in the network, so I could interact with them using my wait for it, iPod Touch, there you go. So that was, you know, I kind of like started to blend those two together. I was really interested in the web at the time, you know, because I was still doing the freelance, I really wanted to move forward and kind of find a full time position doing that. So I ended up pursuing that more and just trying to refine those skills. And it wasn't until about about five years later, I ended up working as a full time web developer, and then kind of moved forward from   Michael Hingson ** 14:09 there, iPod Touch, what memories? And there are probably bunches of people who don't even know what that is today. That   Dan Swift ** 14:16 is so true, and at the time that was cutting edge technology,   Michael Hingson ** 14:21 yeah, it was not accessible. So I didn't get to own one, because was later than that that Steve Jobs was finally kind of pushed with the threat of a lawsuit into making things accessible. And then they did make the iPhone, the iPod, the Mac and so on, and iTunes U and other things like that, accessible. And of course, what Steve Jobs did, what Apple did, which is what Microsoft eventually sort of has done as well, but he built accessibility into the operating system. So anybody who has an Apple device today. Troy actually has a device that can be made accessible by simply turning on the accessibility mode. Of course, if you're going to turn it on, you better learn how to use it, because the gestures are different. But it took a while, but, but that did happen. But by that time, I, you know, I had other things going on, and so I never did get an iPod and and wasn't able to make it work, but that's okay. But it's like the CD has gone away and the iPod has gone away, and so many things and DVDs have gone away.   Dan Swift ** 15:31 Yes, so true. So true. You know, just as soon as we start to get used to them   Michael Hingson ** 15:35 gone. I think there is, well, maybe it's close. There was a blockbuster open up in Oregon. But again, Blockbuster Video, another one, and I think somebody's trying to bring them back, but I do see that vinyl records are still being sold in various places by various people. Michael Buble just put out a new album, The Best of Buble, and it's available, among other things, in vinyl. So the old turntables, the old record players, and you can actually buy his album as a record and play it, which is kind of cool. Yeah, they've been   Dan Swift ** 16:07 very big with marketing, too. It's been kind of a marketing, I don't want to say gimmick, but in that realm, you kind of like, hey, you know, this is also available in vinyl, and you try to get the people that are like the audio files to really check it out. I never really took the vinyl personally, but I know plenty of people that have sworn by it. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 16:25 I've heard a number of people say that the audio actually is better on vinyl than typical MP three or other similar file formats. Yep,   Dan Swift ** 16:35 yep. I had a friend growing up, and actually, I shouldn't say growing up, so I was already, like, in college or post college, but a buddy of mine, Craig, he was all about vinyl, and he had, he had the nice, the amplifier, and the nice, I think even, like, a certain kind of needle that you would get for the record player. And you know, you'd have to sit in the sweet spot to really enjoy it, and and I respect that, but um, for me, it was like, I didn't, I didn't hear that much of a difference between a CD and vinyl. Um, not very. Didn't have the opportunity to AB test them. But now I will say comparing a CD to like an mp three file, for instance, even a high quality mp three file, I can tell the difference on that Sure. I would never, you know, I'd use the MP threes for convenience. But if I were to have it my way, man, I'd have the uncompressed audio, no doubt about it, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 17:27 wave forms, yep, yep, yeah. Obviously that's that's going to give you the real quality. Of course, it takes a lot more memory, but nevertheless, if you've got the space it, it really makes a lot of sense to do because mp three isn't going to be nearly as high a level quality.   Dan Swift ** 17:43 Absolutely, absolutely true. And that the way I rationalize it to myself. It's like, well, if I'm going to be though in the car or probably walking around and listening to music, I'm going to be getting all kinds of sounds from outside. Anyway, it kind of offsets the poor quality of the MP justify it.   Michael Hingson ** 17:56 That's true. Well, you know when and mp three is convenient if you want to put a bunch of stuff in a well on a memory card and be able to play it all, because if you have uncompressed audio, it does take a lot more space, and you can't put as much on a card, or you got to get a much bigger card. And now we're getting pretty good sized memory cards. But still, the reality is that that for most purposes, not all mp three will suffice.   Dan Swift ** 18:26 That is true. That is true. And I think too, you have a that the next battle is going to be mp three or a streaming,   Michael Hingson ** 18:33 yeah, yeah, that's going to be fun, isn't it? Yeah? Boy. What a world well. So one of the things I noticed in reading your bio and so on is that you got involved to a great degree in dealing with accessibility on the web. Tell me about that.   Dan Swift ** 18:55 Absolutely. Michael, so I've very strong opinions of accessibility. And this really comes back to, you know, I was, I was at my job, and I was only there as a full time developer. I wasn't there all that long, maybe a year, maybe two, and my supervisor came over to me and she said, you know, we want to start to make things more accessible. And this is like, this is like, 1012, years ago at this point, and I was like, okay, you know, and I did my little bit of research, and there wasn't a whole lot going on at the time. I don't think WCAG was a thing back then. It may have been. I can't remember if 508 was a thing at the in the Bible. It was okay, yeah. So I was doing my research, and, you know, you learn about the alt tags, and it's like, okay, well, we're doing that, okay. Then you learn about forms, and it's like, okay, well, they need to have labels, okay, but, but the turning point was this, Michael, we had a person on staff that was blind, and I was put in touch with this person, and I asked them to review like, different, different web applications. Applications we made, or forms or web pages. And the one day, I can't remember if he volunteered or if I asked, but essentially the request was, can this person come into our physical space and review stuff for us in person? And that experience was life changing for me, just watching him navigate our different web pages or web applications or forms, and seeing how he could go through it, see what was a problem, what was not a problem, was just an incredible experience. And I said this before, when given the opportunity to talk about this, I say to other developers and designers, if you ever have even the slightest opportunity to interact with someone, if they if, if you meet someone and they are using, let me, let me rephrase that, if you have the opportunity to watch someone that is blind using a navigate through the web, take, take that opportunity. Is just an amazing, amazing experience, and you draw so much from it. As a developer or designer, so very strong opinions about it, I'm all about inclusivity and making things equal for everyone on the web, and that was just my introductory experience about a dozen years ago.   Michael Hingson ** 21:07 And so what have you done with it all since? Sure, so   Dan Swift ** 21:11 with our website, we went from having about a million success criterion failures, and we've gotten it all the way down to, I think my last check, I think was maybe about 10,000 so it was huge, huge change. It's hard to get everything as because as content changes and newspaper, as new pages come online, it's hard to keep everything 100% accessible, but we know what to look for. You know, we're looking for the right contrast. We're looking for, you know, the all tags. We're looking for hierarchy with the headers. We're making sure our forms are accessible. We're making sure there aren't any keyboard traps, you know, things that most people, most web visitors, don't even think about, you know, or developers even thinking about, until you know, you need to think about them   Michael Hingson ** 22:00 well and other things as well, such as with other kinds of disabilities. If you're a person with epilepsy, for example, you don't want to go to a website and find blinking elements, or at least, you need to have a way to turn them off, yeah.   Dan Swift ** 22:13 Or or audio that starts automatically, or videos that start automatically, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 22:19 So many different things, or video that starts automatically, and there's music, but there's no audio, so you so a blind person doesn't even know what the video is, yes, which, which happens all too often. But the the reality is that with the Americans with Disabilities Act, it's it's been interesting, because some lawyers have tried to fight the courts and say, well, but the ADA came out long before the internet, so we didn't know anything about the internet, so it doesn't apply. And finally, the Department of Justice is taking some stands to say, yes, it does, because the internet is a place of business, but it's going to have to be codified, I think, to really bring it home. But some courts have sided with that argument and said, Well, yeah, the ADA is too old, so it doesn't, doesn't matter. And so we still see so many challenges with the whole idea of access. And people listening to this podcast know that, among other things I work with a company called accessibe. Are you familiar with them? I am, Yep, yeah, and, and so that's been an interesting challenge. But what makes access to be interesting is that, because it has an artificial intelligent widget that can monitor a website, and at the at the low end of of costs. It's like $490 a year. And it may not pick up everything that a body needs, but it will, will do a lot. And going back to what you said earlier, as websites change, as they evolve, because people are doing things on their website, which they should be doing, if you've got a static website, you never do anything with it. That's not going to do you very much good. But if it's changing constantly, the widget, at least, can look at it and make a lot of the changes to keep the website accessible. The other part of it is that it can tell you what it can't do, which is cool,   Dan Swift ** 24:16 yeah, that's a really good point. You know, there's a lot of tools that are out there. They do monitor the stuff for you, you know, like we on our on our site, we have something that runs every night and it gives us a report every day. But then there are things that it doesn't always check, or it might, it might get a false positive, because it sees that like, you know, this element has a particular color background and the text is a particular color as well. But there's, you know, maybe a gradient image that lies between them, or an image that lies between them. So it's actually okay, even though the tool says it's not, or something like that. So, yeah, those automated tools, but you gotta also look at it. You know, a human has to look at those as well.   Michael Hingson ** 24:52 Yeah, it's a challenge. But the thing that I think is important with, well, say, use accessibe. An example is that I think every web developer should use accessibe. And the reason I think that is not that accessibe will necessarily do a perfect job with with the access widget, but what it will do is give you something that is constantly monitored, and even if it only makes about 50% of the website more usable because there are complex graphics and other things that it can't do, the reality is, why work harder than you have to, and if accessibility can do a lot of the work for you without you having to do it, it doesn't mean that you need to charge less or you need to do things any different, other than the fact that you save a lot of time on doing part of it because the widget does it for you. Absolutely, absolutely.   Dan Swift ** 25:47 That's that's a really, really good point too, having that tool, that tool in your tool belt, you know, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 25:55 yeah. And it makes a lot of sense to do. And there are, there are people who complain about products like accessibe, saying artificial intelligence can't do it. It's too new. You gotta start somewhere. And the reality is that accessibe, in of itself, does a lot, and it really makes websites a lot better than they otherwise were. And some people say, Well, we've gone to websites and accessibe doesn't really seem to make a difference on the site. Maybe not. But even if your website is pretty good up front and you use accessibe, it's that time that you change something that you don't notice and suddenly accessibe fixes it. That makes it better. It's an interesting discussion all the way around, but to to deny the reality of what an AI oriented system can do is, is really just putting your head in the sand and not really being realistic about life as we go forward. I think that is   Dan Swift ** 26:52 so true. That is so true, and there's so many implications with AI and where it's going to go and what it will be able to do. You know, it's just in its infancy, and the amount of things that that the possibilities of what the future is going to be like, but they're just going to be very, very interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 27:05 I interviewed someone, well, I can't say interview, because it's conversation. Well, I had a conversation with someone earlier on, unstoppable mindset, and he said something very interesting. He's a coach, and specifically, he does a lot of work with AI, and he had one customer that he really encouraged to start using chat GPT. And what this customer did, he called his senior staff into a meeting one day, and he said, Okay, I want you to take the rest of the day and just work with chat, G, P, T, and create ideas that will enhance our business, and then let's get together tomorrow to discuss them. And he did that because he wanted people to realize the value already that exists using some of this technology. Well, these people came back with incredible ideas because they took the time to focus on them, and again, they interacted with chat, GPT. So it was a symbiotic, is probably the wrong word, but synergistic, kind of relationship, where they and the AI system worked together and created, apparently, what became really clever ideas that enhanced this customer's business. And the guy, when he first started working with this coach, was totally down on AI, but after that day of interaction with his staff, he recognized the value of it. And I think the really important key of AI is AI will not replace anyone. And that's what this gentleman said to me. He said, AI won't do it. People may replace other people, which really means they're not using AI properly, because if they were, when they find that they can use artificial intelligence to do the job that someone else is doing, you don't get rid of that person. You find something else for them to do. And the conversation that we had was about truck drivers who are involved in transporting freight from one place to another. If you get to the point where you have an autonomous vehicle, who can really do that, you still keep a driver behind the wheel, but that driver is now doing other things for the company, while the AI system does the driving, once it gets dependable enough to do that. So he said, there's no reason for AI to eliminate, and it won't. It's people that do it eliminate any job at all, which I think is a very clever and appropriate response. And I completely agree   Dan Swift ** 29:29 with that, you know, you think of other other technologies that are out there and how it disrupted, disrupted different industries. And the one example I like to use is the traffic light, you know. And I wonder, and I have no way of knowing this. I haven't researched this at all, but I wonder if there was any kind of pushback when they started putting in traffic lights. Because at that point in time, maybe you didn't have people directing traffic or something like that. Or maybe that was the event of the stop sign, it took it took away the jobs of people that were directing traffic or something like that. Maybe there was some kind of uproar over that. Maybe not, I don't know, but I like to think that things like that, you know. It disrupts the industry. But then people move on, and there are other other opportunities for them, and it progresses. It makes society progress forward.   Michael Hingson ** 30:06 And one would note that we still do use school crossing guards at a lot of schools.   Dan Swift ** 30:11 That is so true, that is true. Yeah, yeah. And especially, too, like talking about idea generation. I was talking to ginger. I forgot her last name, but she's the the president of pinstripe marketing, and she was saying that her team sometimes does the same thing that they they use chat GBT for idea generation. And I think, let's say Ashley, I think Ashley Mason, I think was her name, from Dasha social. The same thing they use, they use a chat GPT for idea generation, not not necessarily for creating the content, but for idea generation and the ideas it comes up with. It could be it can save you a lot of time. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 30:48 it can. And you know, I've heard over the last year plus how a lot of school teachers are very concerned that kids will just go off and get chat GPT to write their papers. And every time I started hearing that, I made the comment, why not let it do that? You're not thinking about it in the right way. If a kid goes off and just uses chat GPT to write their paper, they do that and they turn it into you. The question is, then, what are you as the teacher, going to do? And I submit that what the teachers ought to do is, when they assign a paper and the class all turns in their papers, then what you do is you take one period, and you give each student a minute to come up and defend without having the paper in front of them their paper. You'll find out very quickly who knows what. And it's, I think it's a potentially great teaching tool that   Dan Swift ** 31:48 is fascinating, that perspective is awesome. I love that.   Speaker 1 ** 31:52 Well, it makes sense. It   Dan Swift ** 31:55 certainly does. It certainly does. And that made me think of this too. You know, there's a lot of pushback from from artists about how that, you know, their their art was being used, or art is being used by AI to generate, you know, new art, essentially. And and musicians are saying the same thing that they're taking our stuff, it's getting fed into chat, GPT or whatever, and they're using it to train these different models. And I read this, this article. I don't even know where it was, but it's probably a couple months ago at this point. And the person made this comparison, and the person said, you know, it's really no different than a person learning how to paint in school by studying other people's art. You know, it's the same idea. It's just at a much, much much accelerated pace. And I thought, you know what that's that's kind of interesting. It's an interesting   Michael Hingson ** 32:45 perspective. It is. I do agree that we need to be concerned, that the human element is important. And there are a lot of things that people are are doing already to misuse some of this, this AI stuff, these AI tools, but we already have the dark web. We've had that for a while, too. I've never been to the dark web. I don't know how to get to it. That's fine. I don't need to go to the dark web. Besides that, I'll bet it's not accessible anyway. But the we've had the dark web, and people have accepted the fact that it's there, and there are people who monitor it and and all that. But the reality is, people are going to misuse things. They're going to be people who will misuse and, yeah, we have to be clever enough to try to ferret that out. But the fact of the matter is, AI offers so much already. One of the things that I heard, oh, gosh, I don't whether it was this year or late last year, was that, using artificial intelligence, Pfizer and other organizations actually created in only a couple of days? Or moderna, I guess, is the other one, the COVID vaccines that we have. If people had to do it alone, it would have taken them years that that we didn't have. And the reality is that using artificial intelligence, it was only a few days, and they had the beginnings of those solutions because they they created a really neat application and put the system to work. Why wouldn't we want to do that?   Dan Swift ** 34:23 I completely agree. I completely agree. And that's, again, that's how you move society forward. You know, it's similar to the idea of, you know, testing medicine on or testing medications on animals. For instance, you know, I love animals. You know, I love dogs, bunnies. I mean, the whole, the whole gamut, you know, love animals, but I understand the importance of, you know, well, do we test on them, or do we press on people, you know, you gotta, or do you not test? Or do just not you like you gotta. You gotta weigh out the pros and cons. And they're, they're definitely, definitely those with AI as well.   Michael Hingson ** 34:56 Well, I agree, and I. With animals and people. Now, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, we ought to be doing tests on politicians. You know, they're not people. Anyway. So I think when you decide to become a politician, you take a special pill that nobody seems to be able to prove, but they take dumb pills, so they're all there. But anyway, I'm with Mark Twain. Congress is at Grand Ole benevolent asylum for the helpless. So I'm an equal opportunity abuser, which is why we don't do politics on unstoppable mindset. We can have a lot of fun with it, I'm sure, but we sure could. It would be great talk about artificial intelligence. You got politicians. But the reality is that it's, it's really something that that brings so much opportunity, and I'm and it's going to continue to do that, and every day, as we see advances in what AI is doing, we will continue to see advances and what is open for us to be able to utilize it to accomplish, which is cool. I   Dan Swift ** 36:04 completely agree. Completely agree. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 36:06 so it'll be fun to see you know kind of how it goes. So are you, do you work for a company now that makes websites? Or what is your company that you work for? Do, sure.   Dan Swift ** 36:16 So I'm still in the education space, so I'm still, I'm like, in a state school managing a team of web professionals.   Michael Hingson ** 36:23 Okay, well, that's cool. So you keep the school sites and all the things that go along with it up at all that   Dan Swift ** 36:31 is correct. And we have lots of fun challenges when we start to integrate with third parties and got to make sure they're accessible too. And sometimes there's dialog that goes back and forth that people aren't happy with but, but it's my job to make sure, that's one of the things that we make sure happens, especially since I'm sure you've been following this. There's the Department of Justice ruling back in April, but I think it's anyone that's receiving state funding, they have to be. They have to follow the WCAG. Two point, I think, 2.1 double A compliance by April of 26 if you are a certain size, and my my institution, falls into that category. So we need to make sure that we were on the right path   Michael Hingson ** 37:06 well. And the reality is that has been around since 2010 but it took the the DOJ 12 years to finally come up with rules and regulations to implement section 508. Yep, but it's it's high time they did and they do need to do it for the rest of the internet, and that's coming, but people are just being slow. And for me personally, I think it's just amazing that it's taking so long. It's not like you have to redesign a box, that you have to go off and retool hardware. This is all code. Why should it be that difficult to do? But people throw roadblocks in your way, and so it becomes tough. Yeah, it's   Dan Swift ** 37:47 interesting, too. I remember reading this article, oh, gosh, this is probably, this is probably about a dozen years ago, and it said that, you know, the original web was 100% accessible, that it was just, you know, just text on a page pretty much. And you could do very, very simple layouts, you know, and then it got more convoluted. People would start doing tables for layouts, and tables within tables within tables, and so on and so forth. Like the original web it was, it was completely accessible. And now with, with all the the interactions we do with with client side scripting and everything like that, is just, it's a mess. If   Michael Hingson ** 38:19 you really want to hear an interesting thing, I like to look and I've done it for a long time, long before accessibe. I like to explore different sites and see how accessible they are. And one day I visited nsa.gov, the National Security Agency, which, of course, doesn't really exist. So I could tell you stories, but I went to nsa.gov, and I found that that was the most accessible website I had ever encountered. If you arrow down to a picture, for example, when you arrowed into it, suddenly you got on your screen reader a complete verbal description of what the picture was, and everything about that site was totally usable and totally accessible. I'd never seen a website that was so good contrast that with and it's changed. I want to be upfront about it, Martha Stewart Living. The first time I went to that website because I was selling products that Martha Stewart was interested. So I went to look at the website. It was totally inaccessible. The screen reader wouldn't talk at all. Now, I've been to Martha Stewart since, and it's and it's much more accessible, but, but I was just amazed@nsa.gov was so accessible. It was amazing, which I thought was really pretty cool. Of all places. You   Dan Swift ** 39:41 know, it's interesting. Before I started my my YouTube channel and podcast, I actually thought about creating a channel and or podcast about websites that are inaccessible, and I thought about calling companies out. And the more I thought about it, I was like, I don't know if I want to make that many people angry. I don't know if that's a   Michael Hingson ** 39:58 good idea. I'm. Would suggest going the other way, and maybe, you know, maybe we can work together on it. But I would rather feature websites that are accessible and tell the story of how they got there, how their people got there. I would think that would be, I hear what you're saying about making people angry. So I would think, rather than doing that, feature the places that are and why they are and and their stories, and that might help motivate more people to make their websites accessible. What do you think about that as an idea?   Dan Swift ** 40:28 I actually thought about that as well, and I was going backwards between that and and the other the negative side, because I thought, you know, bring that to light. Might actually force them to like by shedding light on it, might force them to make their site more accessible, whether what or not or not, no, but I definitely thought about those two sites.   Michael Hingson ** 40:45 Yeah, it's, it's, it's a challenge all the way around. Well, what was the very first thing you did, the first experience that you ever had dealing with accessibility that got you started down that road.   Dan Swift ** 40:58 I think it was like I said, when I work with that, that blind person, when I, when I first had that opportunity to see how he used the different web applications, we had the different web pages, and he was using a Mac. So he was using VoiceOver, he was using the, I think it's called the rotor menu, or roto something like that. Yeah, yep. So then after that happened, it was like, whoa. I need to get them back so I can, like, learn to use this as well and do my own testing. So the IT department had an old I asked them. I said, Hey guys, do you have any any old MacBooks that I can use? I was like, it can be old. I just need to test it. I need to, I need it to test for accessibility on the web. They hooked me up with an old machine, you know, it wasn't super old, you know, but it was. It worked for me. It gave me an opportunity to do my testing, and then I kind of became like the person in the department to do that. Everyone else, they didn't have the interest as much as I did. They recognized the importance of it, but they, they didn't have the same fire on the inside that I had, so I kind of took that on, and then like that. Now that I'm in the position of leadership, now it's more of a delegating that and making sure it still gets done. But I'm kind of like the resident expert in our in our area, so I'm still kind of the person that dives in a little bit by trying to make my team aware and do the things they need to do to make sure we're continuing, continuing to create accessible projects. You   Michael Hingson ** 42:20 mentioned earlier about the whole idea of third party products and so on and and dealing with them. What do you do? And how do you deal with a company? Let's say you you need to use somebody else's product and some of the things that the school system has to do, and you find they're not accessible. What do you do?   Dan Swift ** 42:42 So a lot of times, what will happen, I shouldn't say a lot of times. It's not uncommon for a department to make a purchase from a third party, and this is strictly, I'm talking in the web space. They might, they might make a purchase with a third party, and then they want us to integrate it. And this is a great example I had. It was actually in the spring the this, they had essentially a widget that would be on the on their particular set of pages, and there was a pop up that would appear. And don't get me started on pop ups, because I got very strong opinion about those. Me too, like I said, growing up, you know, late 90s, early 2000s very, very strong opinions about pop ups. So, but, but I encountered this, and it wasn't accessible. And I'm glad that in the position I'm in, I could say this unit, you need to talk to the company, and they need to fix this, or I'm taking it down. And I'm glad that I had the backing from, you know, from leadership, essentially, that I could do, I can make that claim and then do that, and the company ended up fixing it. So that was good. Another example was another department was getting ready to buy something. Actually, no, they had already purchased it, but they hadn't implemented it yet. The first example that was already implemented, that was I discovered that after the fact. So in the second example, they were getting ready to implement it, and they showed us another school that used it also a pop up. And I looked at it on the on the other school site, and I said, this isn't accessible. We cannot use this. No. And they said, Well, yes, it is. And I said, No, it isn't. And I explained to them, and I showed them how it was not accessible, and they ended up taking it back to their developers. Apparently there was a bug that they then fixed and they made it accessible, and then we could implement it. So it's nice that like that. I have the support from from leadership, that if there is something that is inaccessible, I have the power to kind of wheel my fist and take that down, take it off of our site. Do   Michael Hingson ** 44:31 you ever find that when some of this comes up within the school system, that departments push back, or have they caught on and recognize the value of accessibility, so they'll be supportive.   Dan Swift ** 44:45 I think the frustration with them becomes more of we bought this tool. We wish we had known this was an issue before we bought I think it's more of a like like that. We just wasted our time and money, possibly. But generally speaking, they do see the. Value of it, and they've recognized the importance of it. It's just more of a when others, there's more hoops everyone has to go through.   Michael Hingson ** 45:05 Yeah, and as you mentioned with pop ups, especially, it's a real challenge, because you could be on a website, and a lot of times A pop up will come up and it messes up the website for people with screen readers and so on. And part of the problem is we don't even always find the place to close or take down the pop up, which is really very frustrating   Dan Swift ** 45:30 Exactly, exactly the tab index could be off, or you could still be on the page somewhere, and it doesn't allow you to get into it and remove it, or, yeah, and extra bonus points if they also have an audio playing or a video playing inside of that.   Michael Hingson ** 45:44 Yeah, it really does make life a big challenge, which is very, very frustrating all the way around. Yeah, pop ups are definitely a big pain in the butt, and I know with accessibility, we're we're all very concerned about that, but still, pop ups do occur. And the neat thing about a product like accessibe, and one of the reasons I really support it, is it's scalable, and that is that as the people who develop the product at accessibe improve it, those improvements filter down to everybody using the widget, which is really cool, and that's important, because with individual websites where somebody has to code it in and keep monitoring it, as you pointed out, the problem is, if that's all you have, then you've got to keep paying people to to monitor everything, to make sure everything stays accessible and coded properly, whereas there are ways to be able to take advantage of something like accessibe, where what you're able to do is let it, monitor it, and as accessibe learns, and I've got some great examples where people contacted me because they had things like a shopping cart on a website that didn't work, but when accessibe fixed it, because it turns out there was something that needed to be addressed that got fixed for anybody using the product. Which is really cool.   Dan Swift ** 47:07 Yeah, that's really neat. I definitely appreciate things like that where, you know, you essentially fix something for one person, it's fixed for everyone, or a new feature gets added for someone, or, you know, a group of people, for instance, and then everyone is able to benefit from that. That's really, really awesome. I love that type of stuff.   Michael Hingson ** 47:22 Yeah, I think it's really so cool. How has all this business with accessibility and so on affected you in terms of your YouTube channel and podcasting and so on? How do you bring that into the process? That's that's   Dan Swift ** 47:37 really, really good question. I am very proud to say that I take the time to create transcripts of all my recordings, and then I go through them, and I check them for for accuracy, to make sure that things aren't correct, things are incorrect. Make sure things are correct, that they are not incorrect. So I'll make sure that those are there when the when the videos go live, those are available. Spotify creates them automatically for you. I don't know that you that I have the ability to modify them. I'm assuming I probably do, but honestly, I haven't checked into that. But so that's that's all accessible. When it comes to my web page, I make sure that all my images have the appropriate, you know, alt tags associated with them, that the the descriptions are there so people understand what the pictures are. I don't have a whole lot of pictures. Usually it's just the thumbnail for the videos, so just indicating what it is. And then I just try to be, you know, kind of, kind of text heavy. I try to make sure that my, you know, my links are not, you know, click here, learn more stuff like that. I make sure or they're not actual web addresses. I try to make sure that they're actual actionable. So when someone's using a screen reader and they go over a link, it actually is meaningful. And color contrast is another big one. I try to make sure my color contrast is meeting the appropriate level for WCAG, 2.1 double A which I can't remember what actual contrast is, but there's a contrast checker for it, which is really, really helpful   Michael Hingson ** 49:00 well. And the other, the other part about it is when somebody goes to your website again, of course, accessibility is different for different people, so when you're dealing with things like contrast or whatever, do people who come to the website have the ability to monitor or not monitor, but modify some of those settings so that they get maybe a higher contrast or change colors. Or do they have that ability?   Dan Swift ** 49:28 I They do not have that ability. I remember looking into a tool a while ago, and it was and actually, you know, at the school, we thought about developing a tool. It would be like a widget on the side that you could adjust on different things like that. You could do, you could remove images, you could remove animation, you could change color, contrast, that sort of thing. And it just be like a very predefined kind of kind of settings. But in my research, I found that a lot of times that causes other problems for people, and it kind of falls into the the arena of. Um, separate but equal. And there's a lot of issues with that right now in the accessibility space when it comes to the web. So for instance, there was a company, I forget what the company name was, but they had one of their things that they did was they would create text only versions of your pages. So you'd contract with them. They would they would scrape the content of your site. They would create a text version, text only version of your pages. So if people were using a screen reader, they could just follow that link and then browse the text only version. And there was litigation, and the company got sued, and the the person suing was successful, because it was essentially creating a separate argument.   Michael Hingson ** 50:34 And that's not necessarily separate, but equal is the problem, because if you only got the text, pictures are put on websites, graphs are put on websites. All of those other kinds of materials are put on websites for reasons. And so what really needs to happen is that those other things need to be made accessible, which is doable, and the whole web con excessive content. Accessibility Guidelines do offer the the information as to how to do that and what to do, but it is important that that other information be made available, because otherwise it really is separate, but not totally equal at   Dan Swift ** 51:11 all. That's absolutely true. Absolutely true. Yeah. So it   Michael Hingson ** 51:15 is a, it is something to, you know, to look at well, you've been doing a podcast and so on for a while. What are some challenges that someone might face that you advise people about if they're going to create their own podcast or a really productive YouTube channel,   Dan Swift ** 51:31 be real with yourself with the amount of time you have to dedicate to it, because what I found is that it takes a lot more time than I originally anticipated I thought going in, I thought, you know, so I typically try to record one or two people a week. When I first started out, I was only recording one person. And usually I would do, you know, record one day, edit the next day, you know, do the web page stuff. I would go with it, you know, I can knock it out in like an hour or two. But I wasn't anticipating the social media stuff that goes with it, the search engine optimization that goes with it, the research that goes with it, trying to so if I'm if I'm producing a video that's going to go on YouTube, what's hot at the moment? What are people actually searching for? What's going to grab people's attention? What kind of thumbnail do I have to create to grab someone's attention, where it's not clickbait, but it also represents what I'm actually talking to the person about, and still interesting. So it's a lot of a lot of that research, a lot of that sort of thing. It just eats up a lot a lot of time when it comes to like the transcripts, for instance, that was those super easy on their number of services out there that created automatically for you, and they just have to read through it and make sure it's okay. I know YouTube will do it as well. I found that YouTube isn't as good as some of the other services that are out there, but in a bind, you can at least rely on YouTube and then go and edit from that point. But yet, time is definitely a big one. I would say, if anyone is starting to do it, make sure you have some serious time to dedicate several, several hours a week, I would say, upwards, you know, probably a good, you know, four to 10 hours a week is what I would estimate in the moment. If you're looking to produce a 30 minute segment once or twice a week, I would estimate about that time.   Michael Hingson ** 53:11 Yeah, one of the things I've been hearing about videos is that that the trend is is clearly not to have long videos, but only 32nd videos, and put them vertical as opposed to horizontal. And anything over 30 seconds is is not good, which seems to me to really not challenge people to deal with having enough content to make something relevant, because you can't do everything in 30 seconds exactly,   Dan Swift ** 53:41 and what I found too. So this was very this was a little bit of a learning curve for me. So with, with the YouTube shorts that you have, they have to be a minute or less. I mean, now they're actually in the process of changing it to three minutes or less. I do not have that access yet, but it has Go ahead, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. But what I'm finding Michael is that the people that so I might create this a great example. So I was interviewing a comedian in New York City, Meredith Dietz, awesome, awesome episode. But I was talking to her about becoming a comedian, and I made about four different shorts for her from her video, and I was doing a new one each week to kind of promote it. And the videos, for me, they were getting a lot I was getting anywhere between maybe 315 100 views on the short for me, that was awesome. For other people, you know, that might be nothing, but for me, that was awesome. But what I found was that the people that watch the shorts aren't necessarily the same people that watch the long form videos. So I'm or, or I might get subscribers from people that watch the shorts, but then they're not actually watching the video. And in the end, that kind of hurts your channel, because it's showing, it's telling the YouTube I'm gonna use air quotes, YouTube algorithm that my subscribers aren't interested in my content, and it ends up hurting me more. So anyone that's trying to play that game. And be aware of that. You know, you can't get more subscribers through shorts, but if you're not converting them, it's going to hurt you.   Michael Hingson ** 55:05 I can accept three minutes, but 30 seconds just seems to be really strange. And I was asked once to produce a demonstration of accessibe on a website. They said you got to do it in 30 seconds, or no more than a minute, but preferably 30 seconds. Well, you can't do that if, in part, you're also trying to explain what a screen reader is and everything else. The reality is, there's got to be some tolerance. And I think that the potential is there to do that. But it isn't all about eyesight, which is, of course, the real issue from my perspective. Anyway.   Dan Swift ** 55:41 Yeah, I completely agree. I think what YouTube is trying to do, and I believe in getting this from Tiktok, I think Tiktok has three up to three minutes. Actually, there might be 10 minutes now that I think about it, but, but I think they're trying to follow the trend, and it's like, let's make videos slightly longer and see how that goes. So be very curious to see how that all pans out.   Michael Hingson ** 55:58 Well. And I think that makes sense. I think there's some value in that, but 30 seconds is not enough time to get real content, and if people dumb down to that point, then that's pretty scary. So I'm glad to hear that the trend seems to be going a little bit longer, which is, which is a good thing, which is pretty important to be able to do. Yeah, I completely   Dan Swift ** 56:21 agree. Because like that, the trend right now, it's, you know, people, they want stuff immediately, and if you don't catch them in 10 seconds, they're swiping onto something else, which is which is very challenging, at least, especially for me and what I do. Who's   Michael Hingson ** 56:32 the most inspiring guest that you've ever had on your podcast?   Dan Swift ** 56:37 Michael, this is a good one. This is a good one. So the video for Ashley Mason. She is a social media marketing she created a social medi

Nicholas Klingensmith says that he grew up a punk and not so nice kid. As he will describe, he was quite self centered, but it was all a façade. He will tell his story of finally realizing that he needed to change both his thinking and his concept of himself. Nick is a type one diabetic. He also is a 4-time cancer survivor and he has a number of herniated disks. He also is a recovering alcoholic. Nick finally realized he had to change after being thrown out of a Las Vegas hotel the night before he was to deliver sales speech. Nick was ejected because he was in, as he says, a “drunken haze”.   Today Nick is a successful author, a public speaker and a successful obstacle course racer and so much more. He also is a survivor of the October hurricane that struck near his home in Tampa Bay Florida.   We talk about all of this during this episode. Nicholas talks about resilience, controlling fear and even why he and his wife made the conscious decision not to evacuate their home as the hurricane approached. Nick offers many insights about how we all can learn to control fear and not only survive obstacles that are put in our way, but he will talk about how we can truly overcome them. As he will tell us, it is all about choice and making informed decisions.   This episode to me is especially poignant because so many of the things we discuss are illustrations of what is going on all around us. I think Nick's experiences and the stories he tells about them are the kinds of things to which we all can relate. I hope you like Nick's discussion and that you will let me know your thoughts.       About the Guest:   After being thrown out of a Las Vegas hotel in a drunken haze, jeopardizing his career and relationships, Nick Klingensmith had to make a change. A 4-time cancer survivor, type-1 diabetic, recovering alcoholic with herniated discs, nerve damage and sleep apnea, he defies it all when he finds Obstacle Course Racing. Refusing to accept his limitations, he's completed over 100 Spartan Races, 6 Major Marathons, several Ultras and scores of other obstacle and endurance events.   As someone who has walked the path of a sales professional, Nick is an expert in propelling other achievement-driven professionals and leaders to overcome fear and rejection and push past self-limiting doubts, by inspiring them to take purposeful action towards their goals. Nick is a raw and passionate storyteller who holds nothing back when revealing who he used to be and the person he is now.   A true testament to the power of resilience, with an unwavering belief in his purpose to overcome obstacles and inspire others to do the same, Nick delivers powerful and transformative speeches, drawing from personal experiences to illustrate the extraordinary potential of pushing through adversity. 1)    The power of perseverance: Pursuing personal growth and overcoming obstacles for success 2)    Pursuing Something Greater: Taking Risks, pushing boundaries and exploring your unlimited potential 3)    Living Inspired: Embracing Purpose, overcoming adversity, and finding belonging   Ways to connect with Nick:   Instagram: @stridemotivation https://www.instagram.com/stridemotivation/ TikTok: @stridemotivation https://www.tiktok.com/@stridemotivation?lang=en Twitter: @stridemotivatio https://twitter.com/stridemotivatio YouTube: @stridemotivation https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOiV2sNB3g4meufvBg3a9sA Threads: @stridemotivation LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nklingensmith/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100069207242260 www.stridemotivation.com Email: nick@stridemotivation.com   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset, where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet unexpected. Boy. It's been a crazy time in the world in general, and for our guest, Nick Klingensmith, it's really been kind of unexpected. Nick lives down in the Tampa St Pete area, and we as he knows, and I know, just went through a week ago hurricanes down there, which tells you about when we're recording this. He lost power for a while, but Nick is a pretty resilient guy, and he's going to going to talk about some of that. He's a keynote speaker. He's an author. Does a lot of different kinds of things. He is a coach, conducts master classes, and some things happen along the way that caused him to get to be where he is today. So we're not going to give any of that away. I want Nick and and while I'm Nick to talk about it and you to hear it, so we'll leave it at that. Nick, thanks for being here, and welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Nick Klingenmith ** 02:20 Michael, thank you so much for having me. I'm I'm really excited to be here today,   Michael Hingson ** 02:24 and I'm glad I was out in Southern California. Actually, that's not totally true last week or when the hurricane hit. I was in Kansas City and so but I one of the people who spoke when I was there was an economist who lived down in Florida, and I don't know exactly where she lived, but she went out as soon as her talk was over to get back to Florida, because she felt that her home was right in the middle of everything. So gosh, what do you do?   Nick Klingenmith ** 02:53 I'll tell you. Man, with the hurricanes, the most dangerous thing you can do is the reactive decisions before the hurricane. And part of what I'm talking about is being right where we are, right just north of St Petersburg, just north of where ground zero was supposed to be, right up until the like the late hour. You know, there's a lot of factors you have to consider when you like what want to evacuate or not. You know, we have a senior dog. We can't we can only drive so far with him. We have a reactive dog. There's only so many places we can take him, and if you didn't leave early, you risk running out of gas on the side of the highway. So there comes a point where, you know, we decided it our house was as secure as a home can be, even for a direct hit, we're just going to ride it out. We buttoned down. We were as safe as we could be. But, you know, with people telling you, like, run, run, run, right? Like, well, I have a friend who evacuated to Sarasota, where the direct hit actually ended up being, you know, I mean, where was I going to go to? To Orlando. It was directly in the path of the storm. Where was I gonna go? To the mountains? Because clearly, that's not so safe after all, the 72 hours leading up to a hurricane where just everybody panics and, you know, I think honestly, and this is what we'll unpack here, what I've learned from what not just not what I've been through, because what I've been through didn't teach me anything. It was what I had to what I had to do to put it all in perspective, and didn't understand it, but all those lessons in resilience give you the ability to pause and make better decisions in the face of adversity well,   Michael Hingson ** 04:32 and that is absolutely true. You know, should you have evacuated well? You know, as you said, there are a lot of ways to go. And the question is, where could you really go? You'd have to leave really early to make sure you could evacuate far enough away. But then, as you said, you have a dog that that can't travel this far, and that becomes an issue. Just, you know,   Nick Klingenmith ** 04:56 I'm not Florida. Man, all right, right. I am. Out three and a half miles from the shore. Yeah, I am just beyond, like, the line of demarcation, but if I was on the other side of the bridge, there's no way I would have stayed. Yeah, you   Michael Hingson ** 05:12 know, well, you know, you can only do what you can do and decide what you can decide. But the real issue, as you point out, is being able to pause and analyze it. And one of the things that I love to tell people is I love information. For me, when September 11 happened, there were a couple of times I asked people like an FBI agent, what's going on, and they wouldn't tell me. And I understand why, intellectually, they wouldn't because they didn't want to cause panic. As we were coming out of the stairwell, none of us knew what happened. The hundreds of people on the stairs didn't know. Of course, people always say, well, you're blind. You didn't know. Well, that has nothing to do with it. The plane hit on the other side of the building, 18 floors above us, and you know, the reality is, we don't see through concrete, steel and rebar. So the bottom line is, none of us knew, and when I asked, he said, Well, just no time to tell you, but I'll take you where you need to go, me and other people who are with us. I wish he had told me, it would have changed some decisions I made, but I also understand why he didn't. He didn't know me. He didn't know whether I panic or go crazy or whatever, and and so he did what he did. And actually, I shouldn't say that I would change what I did and the direction that we went I might have. But the bottom line is, it's all about being able to pause and analyze, and you have to have the information to do it. And you clearly were in a position to have as much information as you could have and make the decision that you made.   Nick Klingenmith ** 06:48 You know, when you hear seals describe like certain engagements and these split seconds that go by, and just the decision making process and the the way that, you know, time slows down for that. I mean, that's what they train for. That's why they train through adversity, and that's, that's how I look at more adversity now. And it's not that I welcome it. Don't get me wrong, you know? I mean, who really wants bad things or uncomfortable things? You don't want them. But I like to say this because somebody had asked me once that, if I wasn't a diabetic, would I be a better athlete? And I said, No, if I wasn't a diabetic, I wouldn't be an athlete at all. I wouldn't have become one so. Well, why is that I have these tools? I've accepted that life is always going to keep coming, so I just don't need to panic anymore. I know I have the tools and ability to slow down and make that decision making tree to get through it.   Michael Hingson ** 07:46 Yeah, okay, and that makes sense, but it is this, we, what if everything in the world anyway, too many people, what if everything, well, what if you weren't a diabetic, would you have done? You know, we, we, we always have to see those questions coming at us. And it's unfortunate that all too often we What if so much that we create a lot of fear that we don't need to create, yeah, which you know, makes sense. Tell us a little about if you would. I love to start out this way, the early Nick growing up and all that, and kind of what, what started you to where you're going and where you are,   Nick Klingenmith ** 08:26 man, I was a little shit. There you go.   Michael Hingson ** 08:29 That's Thanks for being on the podcast. Nick, we just summarized. No, no, go ahead. I   Nick Klingenmith ** 08:35 was such a punk, not a bad not like a I didn't like to get in trouble, but I, I was a little punk, you know, from the time I was a little kid. And I think I realize now, you know, part of, part of what I've uncovered in my history here is that my my father left me, left my mom, not me at a very young age. I grew up on an island, all right, it wasn't an after school special. He moved down the road, but the problem was that my mom wasn't she was still active with drugs, and she simply just wasn't capable of actually like caring for me. And so I grew up not necessarily looking for other people's validation so much as trying to prove that I didn't need it. So, I mean, I had a, I like, I was, I had a side hustle when I was in the second grade, like, I was hustling kids playing cards out of the playground, like, I just kind of like to buck the rules. I liked, I liked the bad guy in the movies. You know, it was, that's who I related to. But that, that sort of grittiness, actually turned into something after a while, because as I continue to look at myself as more independent and having to do it on my own, I also started working at a young age. I went to a boarding school for high school because I wanted a better education. Something else. I sought out myself, financial aid. I sought out myself. I went to college back. At the University of Massachusetts, and I also paid for that. Paid my own way through summer jobs and well, the last 20 years. So that was all working for me as something for a very long time, I was active in life. I like to play sports. I played competitive beach volleyball for 20 years. I I like to I liked to socialize. I often find myself in relationships, and there just came a point, though, where that sort of me against a world attitude changed. It was something that was giving me fuel and armor for a long time, right when I found out is that it was actually more like the rally cry of the victim mindset that I had been developing.   Michael Hingson ** 10:45 So what happened that brought that realization and that change?   Nick Klingenmith ** 10:51 I needed to start having real things happen to me, such as the four times I've been diagnosed with cancer. I'm a type one diabetic. I just celebrated 10 years of recovery from alcoholism. I have seven herniated discs from two different rollover fatality car accidents, nerve damage in several areas, sleep apnea. I almost died from meningitis. All those things had happened, and all those things had only contributed, though, to the victim mindset. It wasn't until I became an obstacle course racer, until, actually, after my boss walks in my office and challenges me to do a Spartan Race. And this was at a time where I was on top of the world. At that point, I was two years sober. I was a VP of sales. I was doing really well in my career. I was in a new relationship with an amazing woman that's now my wife. And I had just decisively beaten cancer for the fourth time, and I was I was kind of stuck, and so when he challenged me to do this obstacle course race with him. I knew I needed a change, and I didn't know what it was, so I said yes to this event. And it was through that process that I began to defy everything that I had previously believed about myself. I had created such limiting beliefs. I had created this narrative again, me against the world. I'm the victim poor me, right? I was convinced that I couldn't run because of my diabetes. I couldn't adventure because of my sleep apnea. I'd always be a piece of crap because of my addiction. When I went out there and I did my first obstacle course race. So I'm out there in the woods, crawling under barbed wire, carrying heavy objects, climbing up ropes, swinging from things, just like a little kid out there in the world with no fear and no doubt. And it wasn't me against the world, it was me in the world. And I felt just liberated. And I realized that everything I had convinced myself before of that had been a lie, and I didn't know yet what I had just, you know, told you about the victim mindset. It was just that point, I realized I was capable. I had this blank slate in front of me, and so for the next six, seven months, I got into this world of endurance sports and obstacle course racing. And I was improving through better nutrition, better exercise, yoga, meditation. I was improving through mind, body and spirit in all aspects of my life. And that's when I was in a second car accident, and that's where I got several more of my herniated discs, and that's where I got nerve damage. And the same day that happened, my cat of 12 years died, and 10 days after that, the lady who hit me died. And even though all I was doing was sitting at a red light when that happened, I felt responsible, and I was home couple weeks later, just heartbroken and devastated. You know, the last six, seven months have been like a dream to me. I felt like I was becoming this better person in all aspects, and now I felt like it was being all taken away from me, and you want to give up. And I'm sure I'm not the only person who's ever felt that way. I just didn't know what that meant. So I kept going to work. So I keep taking showers, I keep walking the dog, I keep meeting my responsibilities. And so I decided to put another race on the calendar, and when I was trying to train. I just I wasn't in it, and I was listening to this, like motivational compilation on YouTube, this guy's going back and forth about, are you a survivor? You are or victim? Are you a victim or survivor? And that's when I realized that even though I had already been progressing and I had just like found this new found lifestyle that I was still playing the victim. I was still saying, Woe is me, why me? Why me? And I? When I recognized it, that's when I realized that it's also a choice. You may not have chosen to be a victim, but you do choose to remain one, and I decided that that point that I will not be defined by my adversity, but rather. They're my triumph over it, and so it's been a decision. I have to only what. There's only one way I can tell that story, and it's a long version.   Michael Hingson ** 15:07 No, that's fine. You know, one of the things that that I realized during September 11, and it was partly because as tower two was falling and I was falling and I was running away from it, one of the things I said to myself was, God, I can't believe that you got us out of a building just to have it fall on us. And I'm a guy who has a lot of faith and so on, and I don't tend to panic. But I said that, and then immediately I heard in my head of voice as clearly as you hear me now, that said, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running with Roselle, who is my guide dog, and the rest will take care of itself. And I've adopted that mindset, which is really what you're saying. Focus on what you can control. There are things that happen to us that we didn't and wouldn't have any control over them happening. I've been well, I'm still yet to be convinced that we truly could have predicted September 11 as a country and stopped it. I don't think that we had the information, which says something about what a team dedicated to trying to create so much chaos and destruction was able to do because they functioned as a team. But the bottom line is that they did what they did. I don't think we could have stopped it, but what I do have control over is how I deal with what happened. I couldn't control what happened, but I can deal with what happened, and I think that's the important part of it, you know, I think   Nick Klingenmith ** 16:42 part of what you just it's not that you can do with it. I think the difference is you recognize it as yours to deal with. That's the first step. You know, too often we we refuse to recognize that we have an option, just because we don't like the options and dealing with it. We have to accept whatever happened happened. I have to accept that I'm a diabetic. I said this in a speech the other night. I said, like it's I'm not to blame that I'm I'm a diabetic, but when I take responsibility for being diabetic, I can be an ultra endurance athlete. Gotta accept our starting line, whatever, whatever that is. And, you know, there's a friend of mine, she's also a diabetic. She has a kind of a special something. I don't really understand diabetes thing, but, you know, she she, she struggles because she tries to control it, instead of just manage it, or instead of live with it. You know, they're basically kind of, now I'm going to mess this one up, but she doesn't focus on what she can control. She's so focused on what she can't. Mm, hmm. And that's what keeps   Michael Hingson ** 17:57 her stuck, yeah, and it happens so often, which is one of the things I talk about in my new book that we published in August of 2024 the book called Live like a guide dog, is that we What if everything to death. And the problem is well over 90% of what we what if about we don't have any control over. And that's the difference between us and dogs. Dogs don't do what ifs. And on September 11, when I was working with my fifth guy, dog, Roselle, nothing directly, really threatened her, and so as soon as we got home, she is ready to play. It was all over, and it's because she doesn't deal with it the way we have taught ourselves, or have been taught, to deal with things. And we What if everything so much that we create a lot more fear in our lives than we need to have, which is, which is so unfortunate, if we could learn to step back from that the   Nick Klingenmith ** 18:52 the speech I gave the other night told my story, as well as centered on a couple of themes that really would have resonated with that particular crowd, but one of them we talked a lot about, was fear was one that they kept kind of bouncing around after the fact. And I say that fear only exists in my imagination, and it's only power sources me, and it's that we suffer more from our own imaginations than we do reality. Sure, we create these things, but if we take just even a moment, and it's hard, even if you think, even if you think through logically, I don't think you can necessarily think through fear. And I'll, I'll speak to that in just a moment, but look back at all the times we were afraid. I found no monsters under the bed or in the closet. Like 90% of the things that I've been afraid of. Also, not only can I get out control, but they also haven't happened, right? Most of them will never manifest. You know, that said, the reason I think that you can't net even though you should be able to logically think through fear and understand that it probably doesn't exist, fear also hits on our emotions and stuff like that. So you. The I do believe that we can then move beyond fear, and therefore action is how we conquer fear.   Michael Hingson ** 20:07 Well, I think that, I guess I differ just a little bit. I think fear is a real thing in a sense, and partly it's a physical physiology, physiological reaction. I will never tell people not to be afraid, because I don't think that overall, we can do that. But what I tell people absolutely is you can learn to control fear and use it as a very powerful tool to help you. If you choose to do that, fear is is something that can cause you to focus, or if you don't learn to control it, it will overwhelm you, or, as I put it, blind you or paralyze you. But it is, it is there, and maybe the time will come when we can completely eliminate the concept. But mostly it's there, in part, because it's a physiological thing that we also encounter. But again, you mentioned the seals earlier, and they've learned to control fear. They're not going to tell you they're not afraid, but they're going to tell you that they can control it and use it to their advantage. Um,   Nick Klingenmith ** 21:12 we don't. We don't differ at all. By the way, the because I didn't fear itself isn't, isn't real. It's our fears are liars, those, most of the time, are the manifestations of the doubt. Fear, of course, is a real thing. Here's what I like to say, Okay, I'm with you, yeah, because I'm afraid of snakes and heights, yet I spend my weekends crawling around swamps and climbing up mountains. But it's not because I'm unafraid. It's I move beyond the fear. I do it anyway, and it I'm still afraid. I'm never going to handle a snake if I see one on the course, I'm going the other direction as fast as I can. It's just that I've, I have to find a way to not let it prevent me from living my life. And so I look for those things to you know, whatever I step into fear, I create. I make my world broader. But I don't know if you ever read the book, fear is fueled by Patrick Sweeney, great book, but he really talks a lot about the difference between fear and courage. Because or being fearless, you'd have to be a sociopath. Yeah, you'd have to have a complete disconnection from reality. And plus, like you said, Fear is very healthy. It is a good idea to fear the hot flame over the stove. It's a good idea to fear the Mack truck going down the highway if I want to go run into the street. Also, fear can be an indicator. You know, I when I was afraid for my job, I knew it's because I wasn't doing it. If I'm afraid for my home, it's because I'm not financially prepared. You know, if fear tells me what's important to me as well. So it's not always a bad thing, like, like we've been saying, though it's what you do with it or what you do about it. So   Michael Hingson ** 22:51 you wouldn't even want to pick up a garden snake or a king snake or anything. Oh, no way, huh?   Nick Klingenmith ** 22:57 I don't care if it had, like, tickets for Vegas and a cure for cancer in its mouth. Put that demon thing, that demon cord away.   Michael Hingson ** 23:07 Well, I have, I have played with some snakes, but I also recognize that they're, they're not like me, and you have to be cautious even among the most non poisonous snakes, and that is something that we have to deal with. But I guess I don't fear them. I'm probably more cautious around a black widow spider than a snake than my wife. There you go. Well. But the other part about snakes is, of course, not knowing necessarily, if I encounter snakes, what they are, I'm going to probably avoid them until I know a whole lot more from somebody else about them. And if I hear rattlers, I'm going to definitely deal with that accordingly and freeze or whatever. So   Nick Klingenmith ** 23:55 that's why my fears are rational, because you would be naturally afraid of the potential consequences of the snake, which is what we should be afraid of, right? If we're getting afraid of something, right? I'm afraid of the snake. I'm afraid it's of its sheer existence. My   Michael Hingson ** 24:10 My brother in law, when he was a kid, my wife used to tell this story, and her parents told the story, and they all passed now, but he came in one day, or came from somewhere, and he was holding a Black Widow and going, Yeah, that's really strange, but eventually he let it go, but he was just holding on to it and showing it to everybody. Fine. I don't think he would do that today, though. Yeah,   Nick Klingenmith ** 24:41 Mo, I feel like again, maybe logic and thinking prevents us from doing really silly things like that from time to time. Yeah, there   Michael Hingson ** 24:48 is that. On the other hand, I've never been a skier, and I'm not afraid of skiing, but I love to tease people and say I'm not going to go skiing, because I know what happened to Sonny Bono and I know. Those trees are out there waiting for me. And no matter where I am in relation to the trees, they're going to come out and get me. And in reality, I know intellectually that if somebody said, Come on, really ski. If I were up in an area where there was a ski resort and we had snow and all that sort of stuff, and there was a reasonably gentle ski slope, I would try it, but it's fun to tease people and say, heck no, I'm not going to go out there and let those trees get   Nick Klingenmith ** 25:28 me. I think what you just said is kind of important, because I look at it like hot sauce, all right. I when I was younger, I could eat the hot or the hot. Nowadays, not so much, but I still enjoy hot sauce, but if it gets too hot, I can't enjoy it at all. It will ruin the entire meal. I can't even eat it. And that's sort of where the fear comes in, or doing things that we're fearful of, because if you just throw me right into it, that's not going to be exhilarating, and that's not going to be something I'm going to come back from and want to come back from and want to do again and say, I conquered that. That's not going to expand my universe. That's going to send me crawling under the bed. So, yeah, if you don't like the ski, if you're afraid of the trees, the bunny slope is where you need to be. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 26:14 having having never skied, I would want to start out there anyway, but, um, but I know intellectually, I'm not really afraid of it. I've just never really been around skiing. Now, my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life, so we really never were up visiting her, her brother, my brother in law, or in any other area, when we were really around in a skiing environment, which is what it's really about i i would never avoid skiing, but it's just not the thing that is the most exciting thing for me to do. I've ice skated in my life, and I was out on an ice skating rink for a few hours, and at the very end, I fell and sprained my ankle. And I haven't really been ice skating since, but I am, but I I'm not afraid to go do it. It's just again. It's not something that that I've done, but I, I think life is an adventure, and I love to explore things. And you mentioned hot sauce, there used to be a show on Food Network with Bobby Flay, and I'm forgetting the other guy, who was, oh, I'm blanking out on his name, but it was called grilling and chilling. And he was from, he owned a restaurant down in in Philadelphia called Jack's Firehouse. And we ended up having to go there. Well, we'd end up going there. Didn't have to go there, but Karen, my wife, and I, went there. They have something there, which is made of the hottest peppers and so on that. You can imagine. It's called hot lava, and they bring you a bowl of it, and I touched my finger to it, and then just tasted my finger, and I went, I'm not going to eat that stuff. That's just too hot for me. But again, I can say safely that if I had to, because I didn't have any choice, I wouldn't be so afraid that I wouldn't do something like eat it if it had to be on something to make it edible or whatever. But I do think you're right. I think that fear is really all about what we do and how how we learn to control it, and that's the important part about it. And all too often, we just don't learn to do that. And so as you point out, well over 90% of the things that we fear never will come to pass, never have come to pass, and we're just the ones who are creating the environment that makes it so much scarier for us.   Nick Klingenmith ** 28:36 Plus, are we really afraid of the thing, or are we afraid of the consequences of the thing, yeah? You know, when you really take it all the way back down to the thing you're most afraid of, you may realize what you're most afraid of is a nuisance and not a catastrophe, right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:55 Yeah? And, and for me, um, I'll, I'll face consequences, and what I the only thing I want to as much as possible know is what the consequences are, and then I'll make a, what you would call a rational decision as to whether I want to do it. But I can take the basic fear out of the situation and turn it into making it somewhat analytical. And the result of that is that it becomes what we're talking about here, which is a choice, you   Nick Klingenmith ** 29:29 know, I'll take it back down in the beginning, because I'm sorry, did I cut you off just now? No, no, okay, you know the decisions that went into the storm, right? So we, I gave you the reasons as to why we were there, but why we decided to stay. But then there were other things to consider. Um, I mean, the house is, like, rated for whatever the wind the windows go 140 like it's a new roof, blah, blah, blah, like it's, it's about as safe as it can get, all right, we we weren't going to die. We weren't going to get flooded. We sandbagged. Everything we did, all this, whatever. So then the decision had to be like, if it is bad, we have to understand, if there's like, catastrophic damage to the area and something goes wrong, they're not going to be able to get to us. So we might be without days. You know, we know. We knew we would lose power. We might be without food, water and access to other human beings and communications for up to, like, a week. So we prepared for that. That said, right, we were as logically prepared as possible. When you're sitting in the middle of a cat four hurricane, I'm not going to tell you I wasn't scared. I mean, like you could look out the window and even the middle of, I mean, it was, it was late when it hit, I mean, trees that don't move were swaying hard back and forth, and you weren't totally unsure that one of them wasn't going to end up in your living room. So those were completely natural fears, even though I was as secure as it could logically be. It's a cat four hurricane, and it can do what it wants.   Michael Hingson ** 31:00 Did did you though, while that was happening and you were seeing all that, did the thought also flash in your mind? Yeah, but I did make the choice to stay here so I can deal with it, or I will deal with as best I can. I   Nick Klingenmith ** 31:13 was already prepared for, you know, in my mind I had, I mean, by the door, we had two doors that were accessible because we barricaded everything else up. And by each of them were, you know, shoes, towels, wet gear, things of case I needed to, case a tree came through and crushed and I had to do something I don't know, whatever, like, you know, the the car was in a position. If we had to bug out, we could bug out. If it, you know, we kept the lifted vehicle here, move the other one down the road. Preparations were about as made. But this is where obstacle course racing literally taught me the process to this. Because I love running Ultras, 50 Ks, you know, 70 obstacles up mountains, 10 to 12 hour days of just misery, because everything will go wrong. Everything will go wrong. Whatever your race plan is, things are going to go wrong. And so I've literally just been practicing tackling one unexpected obstacle at a time, and that's all it is. It's a mental process of right? You prepare for what you can and when things happen, you have to just pause and say, what is the obstacle? What is the challenge I'm facing? What is the outcome I need, and what needs to be done to achieve it? Go   Michael Hingson ** 32:29 deal with that obstacle, and then go to the next one. That's   Nick Klingenmith ** 32:33 That's it. I mean, if, if Windows got punctured out, and then we do this, if something else happened, then you begin to prioritize, protect the dogs. My wife is fully capable of taking care of herself and also doing things to protect the home. So we had our assignments, but instead, you know, because of that, she fell asleep in the middle of the worst of it, which is a good thing. The dogs were comfortable. Nothing bad happened. And I mean, we lost power. But whatever that happens.   Michael Hingson ** 33:01 I was in a sports car rally once, and I was the navigator, so the the course, the instructions were in braille, and I started to read it, and then, and I was reading to the driver, so that the driver followed directions, and I started to get a little bit ahead, and the driver said, no, no, no, don't do that. All I want to know is, what's our next job? And that struck a chord with me, because I I realized, Oh, he wants to focus on just the one thing which makes perfect sense. And that's been a and I was like, 13 at the time. That was a life lesson, though, that I that I really took to heart. Again. You can think about all sorts of things. You do need to make preparations, but when you're in the middle of something, ultimately, you've got to deal with it one step at a time. It's   Nick Klingenmith ** 33:57 It's like chess. You want to consider all your moves, but you only make one move at a time, and I'll tell you, this is something that is so idiot proof I hate that it's taken me 45 years to really get the hang of it, but there's been no better teacher for me in that than sobriety, because I truly learned one day at a time, living and as an entrepreneur and A new speaker and a new coach. This past 18 months, it's sometimes been hour at a time living because life continues to happen, but the way that I will solve most of my problems is with the new action. And so I and you can't just ignore things all the time, but I can say for one hour, I'm focused on this right now. And I literally will say out loud often, no, I'm doing this right now. I'm doing this right now. Even on my run, sometimes I'm like, nope, hey, I'm here right now.   Michael Hingson ** 34:51 Do you do things like, when you're running, listen to podcasts or anything like that, or do you just focus on the running? Neither I listen to music and day. Mean, okay, well, so you you do other things while you're running. Okay, why? I shouldn't have just said podcast. But rather, I pay   Nick Klingenmith ** 35:07 attention to because I run by heart rate. So it'll be like 10 minutes at this zone, 10 minutes at this zone, back and forth. So I have to pay attention. But I set my watch to heart rate. I don't even look at the pace and and so I have to monitor that loosely every, you know, just a little bit at my watch. Also, I will have to look at my diabetes, my blood sugar, every 10 minutes, 15 minutes or so. But beyond that, glucose monitor, yeah, I have it on my phone, yeah. So I'll do that. And then, other than that, I listen to music, and my playlist is very eclectic, but I, I will daydream of things, you know, this is where I set and just daydream of really big goals, or race goals or life goals, and just just fantasize like just, let's say it drift away into that. But running   Michael Hingson ** 35:59 gives you the opportunity to do that, which is what's so cool. I There are things that that I do that I call them sort of brainless activities, but I do them with the idea that while they're going on, I can be thinking about other things. I don't have to focus my full attention on them. And the result of that is that I do accomplish other things, or I set goals, or, as you say, daydreaming things happen because of that.   Nick Klingenmith ** 36:28 And for me, I learned a long time ago. Even though I can be a fierce competitor, I'll go back to my beach volleyball days. Let's say you and I met before the game. You were we're going to play against each other, and I liked you. We were casual with each other. Whatever I would play great. But let's say for some reason we didn't like each other, and then all of a sudden I was kind of pissed off. I would play terrible. I I don't play well, like that. I play well, and I'm loose having fun, yeah. And so since I run my heart rate, I am acutely aware of what a negative a negative thought does to your body, because I literally will turn my thoughts to something negative. And even though I am not making any more effort, I'm not running any faster, my heart rate is jumping six to eight beats a minute. Yeah, so that's also why I don't want to solve problems when I'm out there. You know, that's where I do want to drift away, because when I'm in my work day, right? I'm not daydreaming, I'm working. I'm focused on tasks and things that I can do with other people or places that are required to do during work time.   Michael Hingson ** 37:37 But it's great to have the opportunity to just let your mind go. And I think we need to do more of that. One of the things I also advocate a lot is that people should take time at night, when they're falling asleep or just before, and be introspective, think about what happened during the day, and do it in a in a constructive way. Never say, why did this fail? Why was I a failure here? But rather, what can I learn from this that didn't go as well as I expected? I've learned to not ever call myself my own worst critic anymore. I'm my own best teacher, and that's the way it should be, because first of all, it's a positive thing, and secondly, I am my own best teacher. No one could teach me anything. They can provide me with information, but I really have to teach myself and understand it and emotionally and intellectually deal with it. But I think it's it's so important to have that time just to let your mind go off and do things.   Nick Klingenmith ** 38:36 One of the worst things as people that we do is we start the day with yesterday, yeah. And one of the ways to prevent that, which takes practice, because we're used to it, is we also have to finish the day the day before. So like you're talking about, and this is part of my sobriety, too. It's take that daily inventory, and then I like to after doing sort of doing that exercise myself, I'll also say a nightly prayer, and then I'm going to meditate for at least five minutes, sometimes 30 to 45 probably five. And at that point I'm not trying to think about anything. And I go that that point is when I'm I'm listening or, right, you know, just trying to clear it out. But I think I remember a couple years ago, I was training for this race, and it was a big race, 50k mountain race, and I started to kind of have a panic moment of like, Oh, my God, I have to do all this training. What am I going to do? How am I going to prepare for this? I'm never going to do it in time. And so I asked myself, well, what's the most important thing I need to do right now to hit my goal? And the answer was, I needed to make sure I woke up to do my training in the morning, because that's the only other thing I can impact right I can't do anything about the next three months. So then I asked myself, well, if I need to make that happen, what is the most important thing that needs to happen right now for me to hit my goals? And this is when I was stretching and meditating at night. And I was like, well, I need a good night's sleep so I'll wake up and exercise. Okay, what's the most important thing I can do right now to make sure I have a good night's sleep? Go to sleep. Mountain came down to one breath. Yeah, I hear you. And that's it. I mean, it's I have it written on my whiteboard over here. It says, break things down to the stupid Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 40:26 and eventually get to sleep.   Nick Klingenmith ** 40:28 I mean, it's just the one, the baby steps that I can take. I remember, I was reading Miracle Morning at that same time, and I used to, because I was, I was struggling, and so I was using my meditations for visualization, and I was spending too much time there trying to create a future. And it wasn't giving me that relaxation, and it wasn't. It was actually stressing me out more, and I just needed to relax and just to focus on the single most controllable thing I could and just taking it, you know, take some pressure off myself, and that really was such a simple fix.   Michael Hingson ** 41:01 Yeah, I hear you, if I may, you've talked about being sober now for I think you said 10 years, yep, what? What led you to finally make that decision that you had to change and be sober.   Nick Klingenmith ** 41:17 My final drunk was very public. And by what I mean by that is I was supposed to be the speaker at my company's conference the next day in Vegas, and instead, I got thrown out of the hotel and trespassed in the middle of the night for trying to have sex with a hooker in a broom closet after apparently getting in a fight with somebody. Well, my girlfriend slept down the hall. I wasn't allowed back at the hotel. Told my boss, my lawyer, I lied to my girlfriend about whatever we were getting thrown out of. It took about five hours for us to get a new hotel, and when my head finally hit the pillow, I said out loud, I don't want to live this way anymore. But that was just the final moment. Because what led up to that was I was a very highly functional alcoholic, and I had been for only a number of years. To be honest, I had alcohol wasn't a big part of my life for a while, and then when it came back in, it came back in rapidly. And so really only a period about five or six years I became a highly functional alcoholic, and I mean highly my career flourished during this time, you know. And the thing is, I didn't I wasn't an everyday drinker. I didn't get drunk every time I drank, and bad things didn't happen every time I did, but more and more, my decisions were getting more selfish, my behavior was getting more destructive, and alcohol was just playing more of a bigger role in my life. So I it was when I got cancer the third time that gave me the excuse I needed to crawl deep into the bottle, because at that point it was already sort of critical mass. I wouldn't go anywhere unless I knew I was going to get drunk. Everything was selfish. I didn't know about it. I didn't think about it, and I was actually ready to quit because I didn't like the way other people would talk about me. So that sounds like a healthy reason, right? And so so I tried to quit on my own, and I spent a couple months just white knuckling it, and I tempted fate, and I went to every happy hour. I threw beer Olympics in my house. And I just, I think I wanted to prove that I could do both without, you know, be who I was, without being who I was. But what I also didn't realize at a time that alcohol wasn't the problem. Alcohol was just a symptom. Who I was was the problem. And so when I got cancer for the third time, they told me they couldn't operate. Um, spoiler alert, the tumor's still there. It's been there over 10 years, but that gave me an excuse to crawl deep into the bottle. And so for about a month, I mean, I just, I was drinking at that point, because who's going to mess with me, right? I have inoperable cancer. That was the excuse I needed, and it that's what really led me to take the gloves off, which led me to Vegas. So I tell you, this cancer saved my life, because I would have died for my drink and long before I would have died from the cancer. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 44:19 I hear you. Well, you've said that you recognize that you didn't overcome adversity. You survived it. What does what does that mean? And how do you overcome adversity?   Nick Klingenmith ** 44:29 I understand surviving it is when? How did I how do I say it for someone else? You know? It was because, as I'm standing there in the totality, here's the thing I told you, how I was growing up. You know, this sort of independent kid? Right child of neglect grows up to be independent, weird, right child with trust issues grows up to be self sufficient, cool, but at some time along the way, that just becomes resentment. It and fear, and it works against us, and that's what creates a little bit of the victim mindset, and so, and it's easy to get that way when bad things happen to us, we feel like it's unfair. I mean, it's just natural. Nobody's immediately like, oh, I guess it's just my turn. So I think living with all those things. But this is where, where part of it gets confusing is I survived something, and people would tell me how tough I was. I would all I did was not die from cancer. I didn't do surgery, I didn't prescribe treatment. All I did was not die. I didn't cure cancer for anyone else. So I survived it. I didn't overcome it. All I did was show up to a doctor's appointment like, I'm lucky that I got thyroid cancer and not prostrate cancer. That's it. So I didn't overcome anything. I'm a diabetic. I'm still diabetic. How did I overcome diabetes? By having it. No sir, I was surviving it. All I was doing was being diabetic, but the mindset of thinking that, man, maybe when am I going to get a break? All these things keep happening to me, happening to me. When you think that way, you're not overcoming any of it. You are just surviving it. And you know what? God bless you. Because I know it's hard for a lot people go through a lot, and it's sometimes hard to handle. To overcome it, though, we have to do something with it. That's how you overcome it. I'm a diabetic who helps other diabetics realize they can be ultra endurance athletes. I race with the words fuck cancer written across my chest. I'm currently fundraising for the American Cancer Society for men were pink. I do what I can to help other people who are hearing cancer. I have cancer for the first you have cancer for the first time. That's how I get back there. I try to help other alcoholics recover and get sober. I write books and share about my fears and things that other people can relate to in the hopes that they, too, can overcome those obstacles. And that's how I overcome it. Those things lose power over me now, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 47:08 and I think that last sentence is the real key to the whole thing. You're not giving them power. You're you're putting your power in your mindset elsewhere. You're not giving power to diabetes. Yeah, it's there. You're not giving power to drink. Since you become sober, have you ever taken a drink anymore? No, not at all. So you know you you took away the power, and you're putting the power into the mindset and all the things that you're expressing, which is so important, I think again, that's so much of what most of us tend not to learn, that a lot of the things that we deal with, we deal with because we give them the power, rather than moving forward and putting the power where it really needs to go.   Nick Klingenmith ** 48:04 It's we raise, we raise kids this way, man. And I mean, they're raising the moment to say it's not fair. Wait, everyone's supposed to get a turn, and that's not true. Well, everyone does get a turn, but they get it in a different way, and something I've come to appreciate, because here's here's something that if I wasn't a speaker, and if I had not written a book, I would never talk about cancer, because I feel like I'm sitting at the kitty table, and it'd be, quite frankly, like it's hard for me, like I had an easy road, considering cancer. I'm alive. I've had multiple surgeries, but I mean, God, compared to what so many people that I know have gone through and the people that we've lost, it took me a long time to be okay with the fact that I'm alive and to realize too that that's not something I need to apologize for, but especially if I'm gonna be a speaker and talk about having cancer, and in any way, let that, like me benefit from that, then I have to do something with that. That's what gives me the fuel. And I didn't know how to it was the first time that that I wrote f cancer across my chest. It was because a friend of mine had told me about their diagnosis and they were struggling with it, and I just, I didn't know how to help them, and I just, I just wanted to let them know they weren't alone. So literally, that morning, at five in the morning, I grabbed Sharpie and I wrote it on my chest, and I went out and I did the race, and I was expecting people, their kids around. I was a little iffy about using the F bomb, but I think cancer deserves all four letters, and everyone intended to agree with me that day, I was really surprised at just people tell me about their their loved ones they've lost, or the people struggling with it, or about their the people that have thrived. And I mean, I love hearing the survivor stories, because you don't hear enough of them, yeah, and it, what I've realized is you just. People know they're not alone. They just let it's like you're just letting people have told me about, like, their four year old niece while under the barbed wire crawl of a race. I mean, like, clearly, they they need to share. And so if that's if I help even just that little bit, then that's the role I get to play. And I say, get to play. And   Michael Hingson ** 50:19 I'm with you. I hear you. I talk about resilience, I talk about teamwork and trust. And, of course, tell my September 11 story. And I decided to start to do that. Well, first of all, it was my wife and I together. We decided that I should do that, because if we could help people move forward from September 11, and then, of course, later, from so many other things, teach people that blindness isn't the problem they think it is, and teach them about guide dogs and other things like that, then it makes life worthwhile. So I love to tell people today that what we decided was that selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more rewarding and satisfying than managing a computer hardware sales team and selling computer hardware, and it is   Nick Klingenmith ** 51:03 the other night. The conference I spoke at was a sales conference for a company in the logistics industry, but I've been in that industry for 20 years. I've spoken at least at a dozen conferences. However, all of them, except this one, were on sales or logistics, this one was on fear and overcoming adversity and finding purpose and finding purpose in your team and just thriving and leading the charge. And it was, it was such a different experience, and so much more fulfilling, yeah, in that 45 minutes than any of the time I'd ever spoken on another stage.   Michael Hingson ** 51:46 What do you think is your your greatest strength as a speaker? What do you really bring to speaking that makes you so successful at it?   Nick Klingenmith ** 51:56 I think that this will change over time as but I'm going to say right now, it's, it's simply my authenticity, and maybe not even that may not even change over time, but I'm very raw. I'm very vulnerable. I hold nothing back, and the thing I hear most about myself is that I'm relatable, and so I would say that would be be a differentiator, especially if you consider and this isn't a bad thing for someone who is far more known or professional or more of a brand name. It's not like they're not being raw and authentic, but it gets lost on their it gets lost on their audience over time, and you know, when they're more mainstream.   Michael Hingson ** 52:41 What do you think the the most powerful technique or tool is that you use that people do relate to in store, in in speaking,   Nick Klingenmith ** 52:53 I speak directly to them and share personal stories. Yeah, that's yeah. I mean, that's it. When I say I I should send you the link later, but I the talk I did the other night. I Maybe it's nervous energy, but I am just back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. But I'll tell you what, I made eye contact with every single person in that room, every other second throughout the thing I was I speak to them, and they are personal stories, then they're completely naked. There's nothing that I won't hold back because you know who I am now the obstacle course racing book, right? None of that matters if it's not, if I'm not completely honest about who I was, if I try to sell myself as having been someone else or something else, then I'm not going to help anybody. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 53:46 Well, and I find, as a speaker, that stories, and they have to be authentic, has to be you, but that stories make a difference. And I've, I've been in situations where a speaker's bureau hired me to go and deliver a speech, and I get there to find out that the speakers bureau was totally inaccurate and incorrect as to the kind of the organization that it was that I was going to speak to. And it taught me to learn that I have to customize every talk I give, and I need to be able to adjust, if you will, on the fly. Sometimes, in the case of one particular talk that I gave, it was a totally different kind of environment. What I was led to believe, fortunately, I could find stories to tell these people that showed that I related to them, and I got invited back to other parts of the organization later because of that. But I think that stories are the most important thing that we as speakers can bring, and they have to be true. They have to be authentic. Can't make it up. People can see through that. A mile away,   Nick Klingenmith ** 54:58 I feel like I have to tell the. Vegas story. It's the lowest moment of my life, and if it just it also just speaks to all of it in one incident. So it's kind of like it, but if the person who needs to hear it, you know, I, I don't want someone to just see who I am now and not relate   Michael Hingson ** 55:22 well, this podcast is all about unstoppable mindset. What are some ways to develop an unstoppable mindset? Do you think   Nick Klingenmith ** 55:28 for one we got to go through to get through it, we have to develop what we've been talking about, this sort of obstacle immunity, or at least this understanding that there's always going to be a next challenge. If we ever think that the mountain will be climbed. We can't be unstoppable. We simply have to accept that the purpose of life is to continue to climb. That's that's one thing, and how do we keep how do we keep doing that? Then achievement. I'm highly achievement driven. You can call it motivated, but I don't think so. I have to look for carrots. So whether it be personal, professional, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, some sort of development is also how we continue to develop that unstoppable mind. Because the only way to be on there's we can't be 100% unstoppable. We always have to continue to progress and to toughen up and to keep moving for it, one of the things though, that has to be ultimately critical. And people talk about this, but I don't know if they really spend enough time on it. Self belief is the gateway to an unstoppable mindset. You have to believe it before you can see it.   Michael Hingson ** 56:32 Yeah, I'm listening. I just agreed with you. Yeah,   Nick Klingenmith ** 56:36 no, I know I was I was cutting, I was stopping.   Michael Hingson ** 56:39 Yeah, I agree, though. I mean, you've you've got to believe it, and you have to believe it intellectually and in your heart, you have to believe it emotionally as well. It is, as I said, if, if you're not authentic, people will see through you a mile away, no matter what I when, when I started selling, I took a Dale Carnegie sales course, and one of the things that I learned in that course is that the best salespeople are teachers. They're counselors, they guide, but because they're teachers, they also adopt. If they're really successful, stories, they can tell you stories that you, whoever you are, can relate to. And so they've they've analyzed and they understand what you need, and they can tell you stories to show you why what they have will work, or the other side of it is won't work. And I've had that situation happen where I've been selling a product and went into a meeting and learned that clearly what we had didn't work, and it's a choice. Do you still try to push your product on them or not? And I think that that's the worst thing that you can do, is to push a product that's going to jeopardize any relationship you have. And I've told customers in the past, here's why my product won't do what you need. Here's what will. And the result of that has always been calls later that say we really appreciated what you had to say. We've got another opportunity, and you taught us what we need to know your product is perfect. We don't want to put it out to bid. Just tell us a price and we'll order it today. Order it   Nick Klingenmith ** 58:23 today. In the book I published a couple months ago, selling inspired, I actually talk about what I call being a bar stool sales person.   Nick Klingenmith ** 58:34 Just tell personal stories like pretend you're at the bar talking to the prospect, and convey those things, because people do want to buy from people these days, it's tricky, because they are heavily gravitated towards convenience, but so we have to change our approach on how we get to know them, or, more importantly, let them get to know us, especially if you're buying virtually, like a lot of people are These days, it's not the bar stool salesman has to, has to become a social app sales person, essentially. But people buy from people make it easy for them to get to know who you are. Connect on a different level. Because, I mean, I'm even part of a a Spartan group. Excuse me. There's about 15,000 of us in this Facebook community, and we are very strict about not promoting businesses and services and stuff like that. You know, this is supposed to be about obstacle course, racing, tips, tricks, positive vibes, whatever. But I recently suggested, and we just actually implemented something that we're calling it the the What is your profession? Because there's 15,000 people. Now I don't know the 15,000 but I'm actually close. I know several 100, and I'm actually close with several dozen. If any one of those people has a service that I need, I'd rather buy from them, sure. And if any one of them is like, Hey, I do this, and that they're getting the message from me, like you. Said, Hey, Michael, can you do this? Here's my email. Send it done? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:08 yeah, it's still connectionalism, and no matter what, you've gotta be able to connect or you've gotta create an environment where people want to connect with you again, though, that has to be authentic. You can't just fake it. That'll never work. It's   Nick Klingenmith ** 1:00:27 actually, it's hard for a lot of people. Now, I've been lucky for a while because couple things, going back in time, I've actually just been highly passionate about sales. So as far as like social content, I'd post sales, stuff, whatever. But I say that I'm lucky because of my story. I mean that would be like, you say your story. And what I mean by that is we have something different to talk about. I don't have to talk about being a speaker. I talk about things that are helpful to other people, and it just makes it easier, like, easier to engage now with, like, one of the guys that I'm coaching, he has no earthly idea how to start building or putting out any sort of content. And I'm like, bro, what do you like? He's like, like, just and so he actually posted something about the NHL that night, and it got decent content and feedback. Because I was like, he's like, You know what LinkedIn is not for? I go Shut up if we were at a standing at the bar together, like having a at a networking event. I don't want your spec sheet from your company. Yeah, I want to know what you're interested in and get to know you. So tell me, let people get to know you. That's it. Because when they click on your profile, if they don't, if all they see is your business brand, they're like, Okay, great, moving on.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:34 Yeah, it is, it is. It is crazy. We you talked earlier about how we bring up kids, and we bring up children in such a strange way. They don't learn to overcome fea

Self Intelligence? What is that. Well, listen to my conversation this time with Chris Knight to see and discover for yourself. Chris is from Australia where he has lived his whole life. As he was growing up he began encountering some medical issues such as what his doctors diagnosed as chronic pain. He was told he would have to learn to “manage the pain”.   After most of his school education he discovered that he was good at working with and helping people. He worked for an agency helping people to overcome life trauma for example. Eventually, he realized he needed to look further at how he wanted to live his life with pain and he decided he wanted to explore how better to help those around him.   As you will hear, not only did Chris study and find ways to help others, but he also learned how to help himself. He has been totally pain free for many years. He now has his own business working as what some might call a spiritual life coach.   He and I talk about what he calls your lower self and how it tries to take control over your life. He helps us understand how we can connect with our inner self to bring out and live through our higher self. We talk about fear and suffering and how we all can learn not to let those things control who we are.   Chris offers a great deal of good life advice that we all can use. As he tells us at the end of our time together, he works with people throughout the world and he is available to consult with you should you wish it.       About the Guest:   For the past 15 years, Chris Knight, founder of Self Intelligence, has dedicated his career to helping individuals transform their lives from the inside out. His approach focuses on addressing the underlying emotional and psychological patterns that shape people's behaviors, beliefs, and identities. Through a combination of powerful awareness practices and healing processes, Chris helps clients and students confront and heal the root causes of limiting beliefs, childhood conditioning, and emotional wounds. His approach is rooted in the idea that by understanding and releasing the deep-seated trauma and conditioning that often hold us back, people can step into a more authentic and empowered way of living.   Chris's work goes beyond traditional coaching or therapy. He specializes in guiding people through self-discovery and emotional healing by helping them access parts of themselves that are often hidden beneath layers of defense mechanisms and unconscious programming. His clients include people from all walks of life—whether they're struggling with anxiety, self-doubt, or relationship challenges, or addiction Chris techniques help them uncover the core issues that create these difficulties. His methods emphasize self-awareness, emotional resilience, and the ability to break free from the patterns of thought and behavior that no longer serve them. This holistic approach has earned him a reputation as a transformative leader in the field of personal development.   As the founder of Self Intelligence, Chris has not only worked one-on-one with countless students and clients but also developed programs and workshops that allow individuals to take control of their healing journeys. His work empowers people to reclaim their personal power by reconnecting with their true selves, free from the constraints of societal expectations and past conditioning. Over the past decade and a half, Chris has helped people from around the world make profound shifts in their lives, guiding them toward greater emotional freedom, self-acceptance, and the ability to live in alignment with their highest potential.   Ways to connect with Chris:   Website https://chrisknight.com.au/ https://selfintelligence.com/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/chrisknight_selfintelligence/ Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCynX0a9cJdcX9KTnggSxs8A Facebook https://www.facebook.com/chrisknightselfintelligence   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, I really want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. I'm glad Ashley set this up, and we'll have some fun. And as you know, this is all about having a conversation, and that's what makes it really fun. So looking forward to conversing   Chris Knight ** 01:38 Absolutely. Yeah, I'm more than happy to unpack an unstoppable, unstoppable mindset is certainly resonates with the work that I'm offering, and it feels like a really good alignment. So yeah, I'm looking forward to this. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 01:55 why don't we start? I love to start this way, because it's kind of fun and it always lays the groundwork. Tell us something about the early Chris, growing up and all that sort of stuff.   Chris Knight ** 02:06 Well, I mean, that's where all this begins. Well, it does. It absolutely does. My the work that I am offering to the world is something that I personally was supported by from my early 20s. I'm in my very early 40s now. So 20 years ago, I was in a pretty terrible space. I think a lot of people refer to it as like a dark night of the soul. I had a relationship breakdown, I had toxic debt, career dissatisfaction, chronic pain, there was a whole whirlpool of issues that were going on at that time, and I had no idea how to get out of it. I was seeking many different practitioners at that time in the conventional kind of Western approach, but also in the eastern as well to support with the symptoms I was experiencing, as well as mental health with depression, and I wasn't getting any long term results from from a lot of the things that I was I was doing at that time, I was told I was going to have chronic pain for the rest of my life, and I would have to manage that pain because I'd had it for about six years, and they couldn't quite work it out. I think they'd probably call it something like fibromyalgia now, or some other thing, but it was basically this diagnosis of managing a really poor way of living, and I just felt like that wasn't going to be how I was going to live for the rest of my life. Something deep inside me was it was saying, No, this is not for me. So that's when I started looking at myself in a way that I didn't even know was possible, and it certainly wasn't conditioned at school to do this, to go inside and become aware of what's happening behind the eyes. Often we're very aware of what's happening in front of the eyes and everything that's happening, or we become aware of everything outside through our senses, but what's going on in terms of our thoughts, our emotional states, the things that we become identified inside of ourselves, that is a large part of creating our lives, was something I was starting to look at so that, that kicked off this journey. Michael, and I'm imagining a lot of people were listening into this, this podcast with you, an unstoppable mindset would be also in some way, doing this, something like that. And. Of course, there are many different approaches to that, to that investigation and that discovery, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 05:07 sure, absolutely no question about that. Did you go to college?   Chris Knight ** 05:15 Yes, I, well, I, I got almost kicked out of what we call college, I think you would call High School. Still, we're in Australia, it's a bit different. We go to year 10, and then we go to college, which is year 11 and 12, and that prepares you for university. University. Yeah, I didn't go to uni till six, or could have been eight years after college where I did my degree in musculoskeletal therapy, and that's where I that was a major shifting point for me. I quit my very well paying job in the public service, which had a very promising pathway for me, what were you doing? I was a government housing manager. Okay, so I was working with very challenged people in society to look after their tendencies. And it was, it was the first time I realized I had a gift at working with people and helping them deal with their stuff. These people had major challenges, mental health, domestic violence, you know, drug abuse, everything you can really imagine at that a very severe level. And I had a very unique gift with working with these people. So that's where I just I decided I was going to take it further and combine my also experience with chronic physical back pain to go into muscular musculoskeletal therapy. So I moved from Canberra to Brisbane to do that, and that set me on a completely different path. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 06:58 So tell me more about that, what the degree was and how that kind of influenced where you went.   Chris Knight ** 07:05 Well, it I wasn't interested in the paths that felt to me were really isolating and mechanical in their approach to healing. So I went to a holistic School of Natural Medicine, and it was saying that their approach was holistic, essentially, right, which is what appealed to me, because that's how I healed what was going on for me. But I discovered that even though that's what it was stating to be, and certainly in terms of approaching body and body pain, it was holistic in that it would look at the whole body, but it didn't look at the stresses, for example, the internal issues that everybody faces that contributes to our symptoms. Right? So the body mind connection was not a subject, even in this arena, which was holistic medicine. And so that led me to study psychosomatic therapy. I'm not sure if you're aware of those terms. So yes, that oftentimes when people go to doctors, and the doctor will say, you know, this is a psychosomatic issue. This is not a real issue, that what they're saying is that it's all in your mind. So yeah, that's not what this is referring to. Psychosomatic therapy was recognizing the irrefutable body mind connection that has been well documented and just experienced by human beings, that the body and mind are connected is a very obvious thing, for example, if someone's about to go on a podcast, and they might feel a little bit nervous about it, so their body mind connection will report that as far as it might be the heart rate's increasing a little bit, there might be a bit sweaty palms. Who knows these kinds of things will be happening, the body's experiencing what the mind is thinking and believing and all of that is happening. We experience this every single day. And so you can look at that to the degree of how symptoms come about, right? So how do we experience pain and tension or posture and all sorts of things? So that's I had this wealth of knowledge of the body, and then I got the wealth of knowledge of the body mind connection. That was what led there. And then I was a body worker and emotional release facilitator and many different things in that therapeutic journey. For many years, I actually ran my own courses in emotional anatomy, which was very powerful. And then from there, I discovered that there was a missing piece of vital, missing piece in the practical day to day how to work with these things, so not relying on. Therapist to do the inner work. That's where That's where it essentially started to go. Everyone was getting major shifts and changes and discoveries, but not necessarily integrating that in their daily life as a lifestyle. And that's what I became interested in. How does this become a lifestyle, no different to exercise, no different to good eating habits or sleeping habits, many different habits that we know shape and form our lives. I feel as though inner work, which is what I call self intelligence, is what that is. It's a lifestyle choice that is a cornerstone of what generates health, happiness, fulfillment, joy, everything that we basically want in life. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 10:50 did you get the body mind knowledge from the university? Or how did you acquire that?   Chris Knight ** 10:58 It was through Herman Mueller, he ran an institute privately, but it was, it was certified. It was government certified. Actually, it wasn't a university. Universities don't do that kind of thing yet, but he was trying to get it into universities. That's, he's actually passed away. He was around 80 years old at that time, but he was approaching that because, yeah, that's, that's kind of the trajectory that was going at that time. But no, it wasn't at uni. It was, it was a course outside that was government certified, which to me, actually doesn't mean a whole lot. But yeah, yeah, the psychosomatic   Michael Hingson ** 11:42 part of it came from university, but then you expanded on it, obviously,   Chris Knight ** 11:48 yeah, no, this the musculoskeletal therapy was uni, and the psychosomatic was from Herman. Oh, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 11:56 okay, yeah. And well, and what's interesting is that you still found, even after Herman, as I understand, that there was some things lacking in terms of really dealing with the total emotional and mental aspect of it. And obviously it, it was an evolutionary process for you to get to the point of recognizing all of that. But you did, yeah, and what? What I find interesting, and I hear this often. We've had a number of people on the podcast who talked about their own challenges and talked about their the challenges they face with other people. And I'm fascinated and actually quite pleased to hear how many of those people will say that Western medicine really doesn't deal with it, and that Eastern medicine has to become involved. And you obviously took it even to a little bit higher level, but that Eastern medicine is a significant part of it, which really does deal more with the mental and spiritual aspect of a person's psyche and makeup.   Chris Knight ** 13:02 Yeah, well, see, I went to acupuncturist, I went to Ayurvedic medicine practitioners, I went to kinesiologists, I went to energy healers, like I went to I went, I've been around the block. Do you know what I mean? I went to her all around and in every one of those cases, I didn't get the work that I'm speaking to, which is directly dealing with my at the level of identity, where things really take place. And we're going to get into that. And I really delved into that more with my Buddhist practices in meditation. And meditation is widely known to be supportive to all sorts of issues, as many studies on this now it was the closest thing to a lifestyle practice that dealt with these things. What I find is, and I, and I experienced this for myself as well, is a lot of the time when we experience health issues or problems in our lives, often we don't want to take that level of responsibility for it. It's it's preferable to somehow be fixed by someone you know, like, have some kind of therapy intervention, whether it's Eastern or Western, whether it sounds esoteric or whether it sounds like a drug, whatever it is, it doesn't really matter. It's I just want that thing to fix me, and I don't really I'm so confused about what's going on inside me, I don't really understand it, or maybe I'm afraid to look at it because it's often referred to as Shadow Work, which is confronting. That's there's a there's a hesitancy to go into those places. And I but I find that that's where the core of the the issues are, in the dark places. There. Uh, that require, yeah, putting the light on. So I think you're   Michael Hingson ** 15:04 absolutely right. We, we in general, seem to be creatures that love, especially today, a quick fix to fix, and it's got to fix everything, and we don't take the time to analyze and look at ourselves very much. We don't get taught that. No one teaches us that, and fortunately, some people are learning it, but not nearly as much, or as often as it as it should be. I believe in doing a lot of self analysis, self analytical thinking, and I take time at the end of each day to look at what went on today. Why did it go on the way it did? What? What am I afraid of, or what was, what was I afraid of? And I, and I do, find that the more of it I do, and the more I think about all of it over time, the less fearful I become. And it isn't to say I'm not afraid, or it isn't it isn't to say I don't fear, but rather, I learn how to deal with it. We wrote a book about it that actually got published in August of 2024 called Live like a guide dog. And it's all about learning to control fear, and it's lessons I've learned from dogs, from my eight guy dogs and my wife's service dog. You know, for example, one of the my favorite examples, is that dogs don't do what ifs and we What if everything to death, which is what's so unfortunate, rather than worrying about just the things over which we really can have an influence in control. We worry about everything, and it just drives us crazy.   Chris Knight ** 16:47 Yeah, yeah, I completely agree, and I'd like to, because I I've noticed there's a there's a resistance to the word analysis for a lot of people, or anything that's mental when it comes to healing. I you know, because we're questioning our mind, we're questioning our thoughts, we're questioning our insides. We're looking at our insides. And it's important to view this as awareness work, not not mental work. Mental work is below the awareness in which we are looking at it. And from that perspective, it's a totally different vibration, right? And and so what it does do, exactly what you said, is it brings up awareness around things like, how many, what if thoughts have, I let dictate my decisions today, or dictate my emotional state today that I believed and became embodied with, right? And the question is, okay, I have these, what if thoughts? How then do I dis identify from those thoughts so they're not driving my behavior, my choices, which essentially is creating the reality that I'm experiencing. That is a really important question, and it takes disidentification, which is not mental work. Mental cannot disidentify. Mental can only create more mental so I just wanted to make sure that that was something understood in the approach. Because for the you know, for example, with with emotional anatomy and Psychosomatics, the notion was that the emotions are held in the body. You know, the emotions are stored in the body, because we have the fight flight process. And that that when you have fear like what you spoke about, you engage the fight flight process, the survival mechanism, yeah, and then that puts a charge in the body to be expressed in terms of, you know, fighting something running away from something freezing, pleasing. There's a whole range of different things that happen, and so that gets stored in the body, because often we suppress these expressions, and then it's like, okay, in order to heal from that, we have to release it from the body. Okay? So that's the current consensus for a lot of people. So when they hear about analysis, it's like, how does that release emotion from the body? You see that becomes a contentious point for some people.   Michael Hingson ** 19:28 Change it to introspection, then, yeah. I mean,   Chris Knight ** 19:32 I just noticed this. Like, yeah, introspection is a really good term. I also love using that term. But the point is, is that the body will not hold energy when the mind's not perceiving, particularly in the unconscious, that there's a threat as soon as the as soon as there's not a threat in the in the unconscious, there's no threat in the body, the body will not hold anything the. Body is neutral, actually. And I noticed that in my work, trying to, I was doing a lot of emotional release body work, which was hugely powerful, and still is powerful, particularly when it shifts the unconscious. But it would, there would be this reliance, again, on someone doing this thing to me that releases the emotions out of my body, and it's like, Look, you are way more powerful than this. You have the power for yourself to release or detach from the very thoughts and patterns that generate this in your body, but you would then have to do that work yourself, in a sense, right, which often involves support by a practitioner, a coach. I do this every day of the week, or in connection with the community that does this kind of thing, right? Yeah, but it's a different level of responsibility in the attitude of approaching it that way. And I'm, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, that's, that's, I'm finished with that.   Michael Hingson ** 21:08 But one of the things that I've learned, especially over the last year, I used to to always say, when I listen to my speeches, I like to record speeches and listen to them. And I always used to say, I do that because I'm my own worst critic. And I've you know, if, if I'm being critical, that's the really most important thing. And I've learned over the last year that's not the right thing to say I heard, and one I don't even remember now exactly where, but that nobody can teach you anything. You are the one who has to teach yourself. Other people can present you with information, they can give you the information that you need to learn, but you're the one that has to teach you. And I thought about that, and I realized that is so true, I'm not my own worst critic, I'm my own best teacher. And then that makes a complete positive shift to everything, because now I I approach things in a much more positive way. I don't approach things as well. This is potentially negative, and I've got to pick on me to fix it. No, I hear this, or I see this, and I can now look at it and go, Why am I reacting to it? And an animal. Well, instead of analyzing out and think about you, use the   Chris Knight ** 22:25 word you want to use, either one works   Michael Hingson ** 22:29 or think about it. But I I study it, and I go, all right, what? What can I learn from this? And that's what's really important. And I think that is, is so important that people need to do another thing that I learned from working with a lot of Guide Dogs and so on, is that while dogs love unconditionally, they don't trust unconditionally, but what they do is they're unless something has just totally damaged their psyche. They're open to trust, and they want to trust, and they want to be connecting with us, and they want us to be the team leader. They want to know what the rules are that we expect in a positive way, but they want to develop that relationship. And working with guide dogs, it's all about trust and teamwork right from the beginning. And the fact is that when you establish a trusting relationship, and you learn to trust the dog, and the dog learns to trust you, and you each recognize you have a job to do. Namely, the dog's job is to make sure that I walk safely, but my job is to know where to go and how to get there, and I have to communicate that to the dog with directions. And if I do that in a firm way, then we work together as a team. And the whole concept of being open to trust is so important. Yeah, there are going to be people within the agendas. They're going to be people whose trust you're not going to earn, and that's that is understandable, but be open to trust, and don't let a negative trusting experience destroy you or or cause you to not want to trust. Recognize that's only one individual. Most people are really good, and they do want to establish trusting relationships. I think, well,   Chris Knight ** 24:24 I mean, trust is one of the most important things, and one of the areas I'm working with all the time, particularly with relationships. Relationships is a is a major subject. I have people come to me because they have challenges, triggers going on in their relationships that continue to create a bit of a toxic cycle, or distance or withdrawing and so on. And it all comes back to trust at the end of the day. That's where it ends up, and it's the important question that is rarely asked. And or understood is, how is trust lost at the subtle levels we understand how trust is lost in more gross experiences, meaning, like denser expressions, like you know, whether it's physical violence or emotional abuse, or whether it's like cheating or just not doing what you say, there's all sorts of things there that will create mistrust. But actually mistrust is is is created on much more subtle levels than that. And if we don't understand our minds and the projections of our minds, like, for example, what we think we're entitled to and deserve, and what, yeah, what we feel is within our space of control and ownership, all of those projections go on To the other person and become a form of mistrust, yeah, but that is so unconscious. This is the thing it's I didn't know. For example, I didn't know that my unconscious insecurities, right, that were creating a certain type of expectation in the relationship was actually creating a mistrust between us that was then creating a barrier and a withdrawing for example, because whenever those things are happening, it's repulsive, like it has a repulsive, energetic about it, and then we all of a sudden see that there's something wrong, there's a distance happening. But how do I how do I navigate to this? Because I cannot see that my actions are really warranted in creating this issue. Okay, so this is, this is what's happening for a lot of people, and this is where this work becomes absolutely critical, because it's those little things, it's those subtler background issues right that all stem in insecurity, that come from the lower self, that really erode relationships and erode trust. And then it amounts to over time, big issues essentially just to represent what's going on inside, and it becomes like this, you know, destructive manifestation in people's lives. And then you know that there's all sorts of wounding and shame and guilt and everything that comes with with that, but we can catch these things way early on. But like you said, we're not taught at school, like we're not taught at school, we're not taught at school or at home. That by nature of being a human being, you have insecurities you're unaware of that are going to manifest in your life, particularly in relationships, but also in your work and various other areas, that unless you deal with them, they're going to cause you all sorts of problems. They're going to cause you, cause you suffering, right? And it and by achieving things like success or status and various other external things, these don't deal with those underlying insecurities. They don't, they don't actually solve the issue. And we are believing that they do based on our conditioning. We're told that if we are normal and if we meet the criteria that that feels like this is a life that's, you know, I could be proud of, then I will feel secure. And it's not true. It's just fundamentally not true, and yet, because we don't know any different, we just keep trying the same thing, expecting a different result, and that's really frustrating. I think for a lot of people, it is   Michael Hingson ** 28:59 we don't learn to connect with ourselves, and we also don't learn to, oftentimes, be open enough to say to someone else, you know, there's a distance between us. And I'm, I don't really like that. Tell me what you think. Tell me why that is, is what? What do I need to do? What can we do together to fix this, and that's it is an issue that we just don't learn to connect, which is too bad, because, again, I think that it's all about communications. Well, tell me more about this whole concept of self intelligence, where did that come from? And what is it? And so on.   Chris Knight ** 29:37 Well, that's what that exactly what we're speaking about is what it is so. So, for example, when I have a couple in front of me, and they've got these things going on, and they've got that distance happening, and maybe they did acknowledge it, right? And then they did have a conversation about it, like you suggested. They said, like, what are we going to what are we going to do? And they both find out very quickly that they they don't know. What the issue is, it's like I just can't understand why I'm feeling these really strong feelings over things that certainly don't match up. I'm I think I'll just try to be a better person, and maybe that will work. And this is what people try to do. They try to be a better person. They try to be a good person, and then it doesn't make a difference, because that's not that's not how these things work. Being a good person won't deal with things like insecurity, and then they find themselves in the same pattern, in the same cycle, and we still, we're going through the same thing again. So I'm going to ask someone else now how to deal with this now, unfortunately, for a lot of people, they still don't get this type of information with counselors and psychologists, although some do. Thankfully, some are really great, but most don't have this knowledge either, and that's what I saw. I saw this huge gap where, okay, let's boil down what's really happening here. We work it blow by blow in terms of unpacking the what I call the lower self. So we don't, for example, self intelligence is really the journey from the lower self to the higher self. Okay, that's how you could consider it. So what is the lower self. The lower self is often referred to as your shadow self, or your ego. Sometimes you can refer to it as your unconscious mind. This is the kind of place that we operate from that often holds the energetic of survival mode. So often, if you think of lower self, you'd almost think of the lower brain stem, which holds the survival aspects of our impulses, right, right? And when we're living from the lower self, which we all are, like everybody's living from this lower self. Firstly, everything's external, everything that's happening is out there, and it's happening to me, and that could be good or that could be bad, and there's a range of protection mechanisms for the lower self, like judgment and fear that cause it whole bunch of issues. Okay? It also has needs. The lower self has needs that are called ego needs that also cause it a whole bunch of drama, right, like the need to win, the need to know, the need to be right, the need to be supported, the need. There's all these needs, okay, and those needs create us a fundamental sense of lack in the person inside who is living this life. So this is all unaware of that's going on. Yeah, yeah. And so self intelligence is the intelligence of understanding, putting the light on that dark space that's in us that is running everything. Okay? People know this is happening when they they could make a decision. When we make decisions, we often go, God, why did I make that decision? Like, say it was a job or something like that. I was like, I knew in myself that wasn't the job for me. I don't know why I said yes, but it ended up turning out to be really misaligned with me. That's the lower self. That's the lower self kicking in and taking over. And this happens with people experiencing addiction. It happens when people don't feel like they're living their purpose. It happens for a whole range of reasons. It's like, so what's what's then making my choices like, if I know better, somewhere deep inside of me, what? What is taking over? And this is the lower self. This is what self intelligence is about. Is one becoming aware of the lower self, becoming just very clear about it. And I have a, I have a step by step, blow by blow, process that illuminates the lower self in clear view. It can it has no wriggle room to hide, because the lower self is the best hider that you can imagine. It loves hiding and running the show. It just it goes into any subject matter. It doesn't matter what it is, it will find a place to hide and then run the whole show. That's what it does. It's like, I'm going to hide over here and then call all the shots. Forget.   Michael Hingson ** 34:31 It gets back. It gets back to connecting and really connecting with yourself, which is what we don't generally tend to learn to do.   Chris Knight ** 34:39 Yeah, and connecting with yourself to the degree that you become aware, yes, of the drivers. For example, when you said, what if? What if is a is one of the lower self's favorite words, right? So when you become, oh, I just got that, what if, thought I'm aware of it now, right? Now? I have a choice. Whereas before, when I wasn't aware of that, what if thought I didn't really have a choice other than to react to that thought, whereas now that I'm aware of that thought, well, I can either take another look and see if this is a real danger that I'm dealing with and respond appropriately, or I can realize that that's a, you know, an illusory thought that I can dis identify with. So this is just one example sure that of how that works. So self intelligence is that, but it's also the process of discovering your higher self and your higher self is also known as your natural state. So this is your state, that is who you are, before you became conditioned with a whole range of beliefs, and before you became identified with a whole bunch of things in your life. There is no fundamental issue with conditioning or identity. You gotta be the one to discern whether those things cause you suffering like whether they're serving you or not. That's the That's the important thing, but, but, but beyond all of those things, you existed prior to, for example, your name. Like everybody was given a name at birth, you existed prior to your name, true or not, so you were in the boom, true you you were there before a name came, and then a name came after. Now what happens is we identify with that name, and then we associate that name with who we are, right? Yes, the identification process is the lower self, the part of you that realizes that you're not your name, but the name is connected to this body, mind, which is very important to practical reality, right? That's your higher self. It's the witnessing presence, the observer behind everything that's taking place. And self intelligence is the is the art of empowering yourself to live through your higher self. That that that that that consciousness that you are. So why would you want to live from that place? Because it is freedom, like if we take a a very honest look at our lives, the most the suffering that we're experiencing is coming from inside of us, like someone right now could be sitting here listening to this podcast with a whole bunch of problems in their life, like relationship, finances, all sorts of things, but in this present moment, the problem don't exist in the way that the mind is threatened by all of these things that are going on. These are real issues. The these are real they're not. It's not saying that those are real issues, but suffering them is what happens with the mind. And so if you want, if anyone wants to free themselves from the inside, they have to understand what's happening inside themselves in order to do that, yeah, and so that that's, that's literally what self intelligence is. And there's many forms of this on the planet, in different variations with different names. This is just one term to describe that, that pathway, yeah, well,   Michael Hingson ** 38:39 you know, it's it's interesting. Again, we worry about so many things. We're afraid of so many things, or we fear so many things, and well over 90% of them will never happen. And they're also things over which we really don't have any control, but, but we worry about them because rather than paying attention to the things over which we really do have some influence and control, we worry about everything else. It's so much easier to do, at least we think it is. But in reality, I think that focusing on the things that we really can have an effect on, I think is extremely important to do. I remember when I was running from tower two in the World Trade Center at one point, I thought, God, I can't believe that you got us out of a building just to have it fall on us. And then immediately I heard, as clearly as you hear me now, a voice that said, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running, in this case, with my guide dog, Roselle, and the rest will take care of itself. And I've had that as kind of a mantra ever since that day. Don't worry about the things that you can't control. Focus on the things that you can, because the rest of it isn't going to really be anything that you have any control over. Anyway, it was so easy, and I know people who did, who were just afraid. As we went down the stairs in the World Trade Center, the building was going to collapse. It's going to fall off. We're going to die. And in fact, some people said that. From my perspective, I will tell you that I was listening for any creaking groan in the building in case something happened. But I didn't let that worry me, because I knew that what I needed to do was to keep myself and my guide dog focused, especially keeping my guide dog focused, because Roselle would have and dogs do tend to have higher senses on a lot of levels than we do, and so if suddenly Roselle started to behave in a way that I didn't expect, then I could look at that and deal with it and figure out what was happening, which was my job, but if I worried about everything else, I couldn't focus on her and tell her she's doing a good job. Keep going. What a good dog and all that. And that's what I needed to do, and that's what I learned to do. Because what I did was to learn all I could about the World Trade Center, which created a mindset. And I didn't even realize it, but it created a mindset that said, if there's an emergency in the World Trade Center, you know what to do to deal with it. And that's exactly what happened to me. And so I was able to to deal with it and not worry about all the stuff that I had no control over, and I'll tell you, I have a very vivid imagination. I'm a science fiction lover. I've read lots of horror books and all that. So I imagine things that were probably a whole lot worse even than happened. But by the same token, I didn't let that overwhelm me, because I had something more important to do, and that is to keep me and a puppy dog focused.   Chris Knight ** 41:46 Yeah, that's you know, that I often find that disasters bring out the best in a lot of people, not everyone, but I do tend to find that all of a sudden there's this ability to prioritize things and really be the kind of people that we want to be in with each other. And like I said, That's not all the time, but there is a pattern in humanity that when we're in crisis, all of a sudden this this part of us comes out that seems to be like what we'd love to see in each other's lives all the time. What I tend to find is the discernment of what we're in control of and what we're not in control of is less there when we're not in crisis, when we're in an ordinary life, and when we're getting irritations by, you know, the people that we're working with or our partners, and the expectations that we hold for them, and the judgments that we have about them and ourselves, and our fears about what other people think, and all of that kind of thing is, is just the discernments not there. And so what happens is the reaction patterns that come from that start to play out, and then you get a certain, a certain kind of low level to high level anxiety depression, which is really just experiences a certain kind of I'm not feeling right in myself, like I don't feel comfortable in my own skin somehow, like something doesn't ever feel like I feel content. There's just this slight irritation in the system kind of going on.   Michael Hingson ** 43:31 Survival Mode kicks in, and it creates this whole negative environment where I've got to just do what I'm used to doing to survive, and we don't allow ourselves to stretch and grow,   Chris Knight ** 43:45 yeah, yeah, yeah. Because everybody has a calling inside of them, I feel that everybody has this knowing that they're here to learn and grow and to express a part of themselves that's very unique, but there's a fear that it won't be acceptable, it won't be received, it will be rejected, and maybe it has been in the past, by parents, by siblings, by, you know, people in the schoolyard, whatever the case. And it's a real shame, because that light inside of us becomes dim through through conditioning and through accepting that, and through the survival mode that you're talking about. And the work that I'm offering is for those people who know that that's there inside of them and want to know how to get out of their own way so that can come through, so that their their natural gifts and talents, their capacity to love, their capacity for connection, as you've been saying. Saying can actually be experienced in this life, right? Because there's a feeling like my my experience is so limited by this person inside of me who is controlling everything or needs control in the way that you're talking about, and I'm in my own way. And how do I get out of it? How do I get out of my own way? To have these experiences, to have this growth, right to to take this absolutely miracle of experience, like the scientists that they just cannot believe, like for someone to be bought, for you to be born is an absolute miracle. The odds of you being born, the way that it happens through billions of sperm, and you know, this whole process that takes place with with birth is like you're you're an absolute miracle, right? And we all know this intuitively, and there's a lot of shame in the system when we don't feel like we're giving this life our fullest because we're in our own way. You know, there's, there's a lot of shame that builds up with that. And yeah, and I feel like I'm I felt that way myself, that I'm speaking to my my lower self. That's I, that's what I experienced, was that, and fortunately, I was guided towards the ways in which to unlock that inner potential. Yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 46:33 your chronic pain went away along the way.   Chris Knight ** 46:35 Yeah, yeah. It went away very quickly. Actually, it was one of the things that really shifted very fast, I just lowered back pain. Yeah, that was one of the, one of the many things that came into alignment amongst many other things, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 46:54 So in a sense, you were, you were, if you will, causing your own pain. Oh, absolutely,   Chris Knight ** 46:59 yeah, absolutely, yeah. Because sometimes it's not like that. Sometimes it's a, it's an ergonomic thing. It's a, you know, it's an injury kind of thing, like this and that that is the case. It's not always like psychosomatic, if you want to call it, that body mind. But this was because of the chronic nature of it. I tell people, when it comes to this work, you're looking for patterns. You're looking for things that keep showing up and they're not shifting, they're not healing. So what that's saying is, there's something that's not been addressed inside that has to be looked at, you know, and so that that's I've worked with a lot of people with weight issues. I over overweight, and they're doing all the right things, they're eating the right food, they're exercising, and they're like, the weights not shifting. It's like, look, there's something else going on internally that that says that due to your perceptions, your beliefs, your experiences, that you have to continue to protect yourself in a certain way that's holding that weight. And until you address that, your weight is going to be very hard to shift. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 48:03 I know I used to be a lot more overweight than I am now, and I made the conscious decision to deal with it. And one of the things that I did was changed eating habits a little bit, but yeah, mostly it was again, a mindset, and since I began losing weight, I have lost about 85 pounds in the last five years. And so I'm very happy with that, and I'm not going to let it come back. And that's the way it ought to be. But, but I also know that it was a lot of me connecting with myself and recognizing that I had to make some changes, both in mindset and in food, but yes, also Yeah, but especially in mindset,   Chris Knight ** 48:56 yeah, yeah. I I felt the same way, like all the therapies that were trying to support my symptoms started to become way more effective when I was dealing with my internal so they all have their place. Everything has its place. Diet has its place. Therapies have their place. Drugs have their place. Everything has its place. It's up to us to understand how to discern when and where and how much of those things are necessary in our lives. You know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's the thing. And that decide I use this word discernment quite a bit, because discernment is the is the major aspect of self intelligence that as society and as human beings, that I feel as though we require development of. You know, we know this with children like they children have an adult in their life, because the adult can discern what's dangerous, what's not dangerous. The adult can discern if there's a boogie man under the bed or not. You know, where a child's mind will go off into all sorts of. Places, you know, and the adult can kind of ground them back to something that's safe and understandable. But we have to be that adult to ourselves. We have to be that adult to our own inner child so that we can discern what's happening, and the child inside, it does what the child does when it feels uncomfortable and so on. It just goes to the parent to get some kind of whatever it is, to get the boob, to get the dummy, to get the comfort, the relief of some kind they're not responsible for what's happening it's the adult who's responsible. And many people are living their lives internally as a child and the feeling completely overwhelmed by life, because the child like mind is not supposed to be taking on those kinds of responsibilities, and yet it's trying to, and it's suffering, and in order to cope with the overwhelm, it will employ things like distractions, addictions, to to to basically deal with the the uncomfortable sensation of that overwhelming stress and the amount of man, the amount of distractions that we can employ these days, and it will be experienced as procrastination, you know, it'll be experienced as perfectionism. It'll be experienced as sabotaging behaviors. It'll be experienced as energetically prostituting ourselves in situations that don't necessarily serve us. It shows up in all these different facets, and what that's saying is that that discernment and that that that adults like quality hasn't been yet developed to the point where you can trust yourself, and it's still then looking outside for the answers, where the the answers inside. And this is, this is a major shift. I feel it's taking place on the planet right now, because the more that technology develops as well. Our discernment is more and more necessary. What can we trust? What can't we trust? What information can we rely on or not? Becomes harder and harder as technology increases, so discernment is even more and more important. And I found it interesting that as artificial intelligence birth itself, so did self intelligence in like unison with that, which is actually a really beautiful compliment when they come together in the right way. But without that, they it could be, you know, it's likely to be another kind of tool that weaponizes against itself. So what   Michael Hingson ** 52:38 kind of practices can we employ to learn to live better through our higher selves?   Chris Knight ** 52:45 There are three primary practices that I'm most interested in that I feel get the best results, and I see get the best results, and they're tried and tested to get the best results in this particular area that we're speaking to. The first is self inquiry. And self inquiry is the is the questioning which it's an awareness practice. I just want to repeat that it's not a mental practice. It's it's a line of questioning that allows you to become aware of the unconscious programming and belief systems and traumas and wounding that are driving your actions and behavior and choices, that are creating your reality. So this, this is extremely important to become aware of those things and not to assume that you're aware of them. If you're seeing symptoms in your life, like I had to come to terms with this myself, right? Because everyone thinks they know themselves. Everyone believes they know themselves. I know who I am, right? Everyone has this strong conviction. I know who I am. It takes life to cause a fair bit of pain to go you know what? Maybe I don't know myself as well as I thought I did, right? And maybe there's some room for growth, and maybe there's some room to learn some things about myself. So you have to have that degree of attitude, which unfortunately, usually takes people a lot of pain, even like a dark night, to even get to that point. But that's the first step. Is to have a very clear, simple line of inquiry to illuminate that stuff, and to also have the line of inquiry, which is all in the one package of self inquiry to dis identify with limiting beliefs and negative emotional states that aren't serving you, right? So that's the first step. So self inquiry does that. The second step is to be in the vibration of your higher self on a daily basis. No different to exercising on a daily basis or other habits that serve there are many habits brushing your teeth on a daily basis, whatever it is to actually just be in the full experience of your. Higher Self, which is a guided meditation kind of process, and to do that daily. And what that does is that creates the space internally to be able to see those thoughts. Because if you don't have that space, you just are the thoughts. There's no there's no distinction there. And if the viewers listening to this tried meditation didn't work for me, that type of thing. Do not think about it like strict versions of meditation that that that was like I was trying to stop my mind, or this type of thing. It's not like that. I call these self recognition practices. So this the second step is self recognition. Recognize, recognize that you are the witnessing consciousness of everything that includes everything externally and everything internally. And just sit with that, sit with that recognition. And what happens is your vibration goes up naturally. You start to feel calm, peace, joy, creative, all of these natural things, inspired, enthusiastic. There's all this natural energy there, and you don't do and you're not making it up. You're not creating it. You're not trying to will yourself into those states. It's just what happens when you do this. So that's the second step. The third step I call self regulation, which is the physical body's way of coming out of the survival mode. So I teach that through body tremor, through body release and through breath work. So when the nervous system is kicked off, this could be anything. It could be like some stressful thing at work, or some jealousy issue in your relationship, or some because it's bring up some trauma. It's like, look, I'm going to take a few moments. I'm going to get myself regulated before I have a conversation, for example, or before I go on with this task, or whatever I'm going to do. It could be that I'm procrastinating. Procrastination is a survival mechanism. So it's like, I can do some breath work, and then all of a sudden I'm freed up. It's like, all of a sudden I'm good to go like that procrastination, that barrier, That invisible barrier of taking action, is no longer there anymore, and so it's another it's the physical version of coming out of that lower state of the lower self. And that's it. Those three practices are plenty enough to implement. Now the second practice, self recognition, that's a daily practice, self inquiry, often is something people use when they get triggered by things you know, like something happens, someone says something, a situation occurs, and you're not accepting reality. You're you're you're not okay with what's happening, and therefore certain perceptions, beliefs and thoughts have triggered off there to inquire, to come out of that state, because at the end of the day, it's a fear based vibration that you're in, and nothing you do in the fear vibration is going to serve anything per like useful so similar to if you were going into a rip in the ocean, panicking is never going to be the best thing to do. So it's just recognizing that nothing I do on the from the state of fear and judgment and ego based needs are going to like create as a result that I actually want, but we think that it will right? So we react to things all the time, we project things all the time, and think it's going to get us what we want, and it doesn't do that. It gets us actually the opposite of what we want. And so that's something we have to come to terms with. So that happens a lot of the time. Yeah, when we get triggered, if you're feeling really insecure about something, if you're noticing certain negative judgments, there's, there's all the different triggers for self inquiry. But it's more on a case by case basis that that's happening, and that could be like a 10 minute process, 510 minute process. And same with the that's the same with the self regulation, that that's also a five to 10 minute process to come out of that state. And it's it, what? What is it all saying? It's saying I'm prepared to look after my vibration. I know that in a higher vibration, things work out. Things go into flow, things seem to synchronize. Things seem to look after me in a way that's more serving and natural when I'm in the lower state. It's like the world's against me. It's like everything's like pushing shit uphill. It's just difficult, it's hard work. It's like the world's against me somehow. And it's like, I don't want to live from that state. I don't want to be make. Decisions from that state. I don't want to be relating in my relationships and my kids and everything else from that state, because it just creates more and more problems. So yeah, those are the those are the three processes, self recognition, self inquiry and self regulation. Yeah. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:17 basically, are you a life coach? Yeah?   Chris Knight ** 1:00:21 Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'd be sort of known as a spiritual life coach, because, only because I deal at the level of identity, which is where people usually use the word spiritual. I don't use the word spiritual because it has too many it's too much of a loaded word,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:38 even though that's what it is, yeah,   Chris Knight ** 1:00:39 that is what it is, because we're just dealing with disidentification semantics, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, there's no limit to the kind of issues that I work with in people's lives. I tend to find that I work with certain themes more than others, like the people in my community at the moment, and the clients that I have is very it's a very diverse thing, like it could be jealousy and relationship for one person, another person's coming out overcoming an eating disorder or body dysmorphia. Someone else is dealing with a sexual abuse trauma. Someone else has got dad wounds from childhood that have caused them to be narcissist in their work life, and it's causing them all sorts of problems. So they're dealing with narcissistic issues. So it's so to the core of what's going on for us that it's very holistic in that way.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:37 Yeah. So what is your business called?   Chris Knight ** 1:01:41 My name, it's, it's self intelligence is the method, is the the teaching. And my name is Chris Knight, and I'm the founder of that. So that's, that's essentially what that is. So people say, go see Chris if they recognize a certain problem. And he's like, I think he'll be able to help you out with that particular thing. There   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:01 you go. Have you written any books yet?   Chris Knight ** 1:02:05 I've, I haven't published a book. I've written a textbook in emotional anatomy, and I've got a podcast, a self intelligence podcast, where I do live sessions with people, which is pretty amazing for people to do that, to do live sessions, and I definitely intend to write various books, but yeah, at the moment, I'm just continuing to refine the self intelligence program. The it has gone through many updates to keep it as simple and as user friendly to people as possible, given that it's a lifestyle approach. And yeah, that's that's where it's at at the moment. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:54 if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Yeah,   Chris Knight ** 1:02:58 so they look up Chris knight.com.au, and you'll find everything there. The two offerings I have is one, I do one on one coaching with people on everything that we just spoke about today, and I often have a discovery call with people, just to make sure that they feel like I'm the right fit for them, for what they're dealing with. And two, I have a community, because everything that I'm doing is lifestyle based. So the meditation, the self inquiry and the self regulation, these are intended to become habits in our life, like exercise and other things. So it's like going to the gym. Actually, you can go to the gym and get an instructor, right? That's like the one on one coach. You can get an instructor and they support you through it. Or you can just be a member at the gym and then go whenever you like. Yeah, so we just come off the back of a 30 day self inquiry commitment, which involved four different practices, like four different inquiry processes, and we do challenges like that all throughout the year. We meet on a weekly basis to do integration, because integration is often what's lacking for a lot of people in the self development space, where they have a big explosive like heart opening experience for, you know, in a conference or a workshop or something like that. But then they go back to their old habits when they get back into their daily life, and it's like, how do you integrate that vibration that I know, I now know, is possible in my daily life? That's what integration these integration sessions are for, and they're weekly. So that's what that that community is all about. So, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:42 So again, it's Chris Knight, C, H, R, I S, K, N, I, G, H, t.com/a, u.com.com, dot A, U, sorry, yeah,   Chris Knight ** 1:04:51 yeah. I think if you just, if, I think if you just Google Chris Knight on its own, I think I'm the top are you on LinkedIn as well? Well, ah, no, no, no, no, I'm not okay, no, no, but I think on top of the search, but it might depend on where you're at in the world.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:10 Now I know how to find you. Chris, Chris Knight, now that's that's no problem,   Chris Knight ** 1:05:14 or search, or search, self intelligence.com, self   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:18 intelligence.com, which makes sense as well. Yeah, so   Chris Knight ** 1:05:21 you'll get there. You'll get there to me as well. And you know this is for people who want, who know in their hearts, they know that looking after your internal world is important, as to looking after your body in and to just have a small amount of time per day to do that as a lifestyle, but also when you feel like you're in the trenches, or you feel like you really require someone to hold your hand, in a sense, to get through some stuff, that's where the one on one sessions are there. And I work with people in America. I work with people all over the world, because we can do this right? And this is fortunately for what I offer. This works perfectly. It is not a barrier or an issue at all. In person is not necessary. It works great. So,   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:12 yeah, well, I want to thank you for taking the time to be here and talk about all this. It has been fun. And every time i i hear the kinds of things that you're talking about, that also tend to validate a lot of my thoughts. I like that as well, but I learn a lot, and as I as I love to tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else on this podcast, I'm not doing my job very well. So I really appreciate you being here, and I have learned a lot today. So I want to thank you for that, and I want to thank you all for listening. So wherever you're listening, please, we'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael Hinkson is m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, we'd love to hear from you, and please, wherever you're listening, give us a five star review. We value your reviews. We value your thoughts, and we especially do love those, those great reviews, so please keep them coming. We are very joyous to get those and we feel very blessed. If you know anyone who you think ought to be a guest on our podcast, Chris, that includes you. If you know anyone you think we ought to be chatting with, please let us know we're always looking to meet new people and make new friends. And as I've told Chris and I tell everyone who comes on the podcast, the only rule about being on the podcast is you gotta have fun. Otherwise, where is this engine doing it right? Exactly, exactly. So once, once more, I want to thank you, Chris for being here. This has been absolutely fun. So thank you very much. Thank   Chris Knight ** 1:07:50 you so much as well. I appreciate all your your effort and just your life story and the fact that you were just a living inspiration to anyone who feels that they have victimized by life, you have shown that you can thrive in this world beyond that whole narrative, and that's what this is all about.   Michael Hingson ** 1:08:14   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we a

And as if the above title weren't enough, Paul Hylenski is also a 5-time successful author, a pilot and a public speaker. Paul grew up in Delaware. He joined the Marines in 1999 and stayed with the Corps until 2007. He then left to join a large company and, as he put it, got the opportunity to observe both good and bad leaders. He and I talk quite a bit about leaders and leadership. I asked him if he observed bad leadership in the Marines. He said that people being human do find themselves not leading properly in and out of the marines. His insights about this are best left for him to tell.   Along the way Paul formed his company, Quantum Leap Academy. His company was formed to provide comprehensive training in AI technologies. He also formed VetMentor.ai, a service designed to assist military members in navigating the complexities of disability claims and career transitions with the aid of AI.   As you may be able to gather, AI is a subject Paul has learned a great deal about. He discusses how we all can use it much more than we do in ways that can and will benefit us along our life journeys.   Time passed for me quickly talking with Paul. He would love to hear from you, veteran or not. He has much to offer as you will see.       About the Guest:   Paul Hylenski is a dynamic business leader, software programmer, and motivational speaker with a deep passion for leveraging technology to enhance community and personal growth. After serving in the Marine Corps, Paul founded Quantum Leap Academy, a platform dedicated to providing comprehensive training in AI technologies. His vision extends into healthcare, where he has launched BioMarker Detect, an early cancer detection company. Paul's entrepreneurial spirit is complemented by his authorship, notably of his book 'Error-Proofing Humans,' which explores the intersection of human error and technological solutions. Paul's commitment to veteran affairs is evident through VetMentor.AI, a service designed to assist military members in navigating the complexities of disability claims and career transitions with the aid of AI. His efforts to democratize technology education are also showcased in his development of courses like 'Introduction to AI for Teens' and specialized training for veterans. Outside of his professional endeavors, Paul enjoys piloting aircraft and spending quality time with his family. His forward-thinking approach and dedication to service have made significant impacts across multiple sectors, particularly in AI education and veteran support.   Ways to connect with Paul:   LinkedIn : (1) Paul Hylenski | LinkedIn Website : www.quantumleapacademy.org   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello everyone, and pleasant greetings to you wherever you happen to be today. I am Michael Hingson, the host of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. It's a lot of fun to be here. I really appreciate you joining us today. Hope that you have as much fun listening as I and our guest have in bringing this to you, I tell everyone who's going to come on the podcast that there is only one rule that everyone has to follow on the podcast or we won't do it, and that is, you have to have fun. And Paul Hylenski is definitely a person who said he would him force himself to do that. So Paul, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here   Paul Hylenski ** 02:02 today. Thank you so much. Michael, appreciate it. Thank you for having me on Well, Paul is a   Michael Hingson ** 02:08 former Marine. He is the founder and CEO of something called Quantum Leap. He does various things with AI and technology. He is a leader by any standard. He's authored, if I recall write five books anymore, any more coming up in the queue, we'll have to learn about that. But definitely not a person who is idle, a man of action in a lot of different ways. And we're really glad that you're here with us. So why don't we start if you would, why don't you tell me a little bit about you as kind of the early Paul growing up and all that kind of life and all that and how you got started.   Paul Hylenski ** 02:45 So, you know, I grew up in actual Newark, Delaware, so funny, there had a great childhood. Decided when I was in high school that I was going to enlist in the Marine Corps, so I wanted to be one of the few and the proud, and so I joined the Marine Corps, served in the Marine Corps, that was one of the best experiences of my life. Then after the Marine Corps, I actually got connected with a company with that was an aerospace company, and started working there as a frontline leader, and then from there, I saw a lot of bad leaders, and I saw some great leaders. And so I was able to, actually, as I kept going through the ranks, tailor my leadership towards how I wanted to be. And it was different. It was using science, psychology and leadership. And then as the AI revolution started happening, I started actually putting AI into business, and I wrote a book about AI in business, and then I thought to myself, well, now maybe I can impact the world in a bigger way. And that was what kind of drove me to start Quantum Leap Academy. And Quantum Leap Academy focuses on teaching professionals AI that's practical and and then that's really been my passion and mission is impacting the world with actually teaching how to automate and really make your life easier using AI   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 Cool. Well, you've been been doing a lot of stuff. How did you come up with the name quantum leap?   Paul Hylenski ** 04:29 A great story, but back in the 80s, there used to be an amazing TV   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 show, yes. So   Paul Hylenski ** 04:35 I thought, what better? You know, I was looking for a name that showed like, look, we're gonna go from where we're at now, and we're going to take this huge leap, and it's almost a leap of faith, you know, that we can use this new technology in in the forces of good. And so, you know, broke it out from my childhood. But, you know, kind of took the quantum leap. And then, you know, the academy. So, and   Michael Hingson ** 05:02 it kind of went from there, yeah, well, so you said that you left the Marines. Well, when you left the Marines, and you went then to a major company, and you started out in kind of initial leadership and so on, how did being a Marine help you in terms of dealing with an understanding leadership, much less what made a good leader and what made a leader, not necessarily a good leader.   Paul Hylenski ** 05:31 You know, for me, and I've done, I've done a few talks, and I've done a couple TED talks, actually, on this. And for me, the military is is is a great example of what they what I like to call the total leadership. So in business, normally what we do is we only worry about the people when we need them, or while they're at work or while they're accomplishing a mission. But in the military, we have to worry about the total person, because even the person's home life, or maybe things they have going on outside of the mission impact their ability to carry out the mission. And, you know, I've said a couple things you know about just both the military rewards people. So in the military, you get medals, and, you know, you get medals and awards for sacrificing yourself for the good of your people. But in business, a lot of times you get, you know, raises and promotions for sacrificing everyone around you for the good of yourself. And I think that's a flawed dynamic that I really got to see in action in the military, and I brought that into the civilian business life, do you   Michael Hingson ** 06:45 and looking back on it, if you will, and you talked about you saw leaders who were good leaders and not so good leaders in the corporate world. And I don't want to pick on the military, but did you see the same sort of thing at all in the military, or do they really weed out people who don't tend to to do very well in the leadership role? That's   Paul Hylenski ** 07:07 actually a myth. So most people think that there's only great leaders in the military.   Michael Hingson ** 07:15 You did find some that weren't necessarily so, okay,   Paul Hylenski ** 07:18 yes, yeah. And you know, like bad leaders tend to shape us in different ways, and sometimes better than the better leaders. You know, because you learn more from watching people who might be doing it wrong. But you know, it is great learning experience. I learned some things to do, and then I learned some things that did work, but yeah, absolutely, there are bad leaders everywhere. So   Michael Hingson ** 07:43 what would you define as as a bad leader? What are some things that you experienced or you've seen that made people not necessarily such great leaders?   Paul Hylenski ** 07:52 So for me, it's, you know, leading through intimidation and fear that was a practice that was made pretty common all throughout, you know, 1970s 1980s and the myth there was that people stayed because they were okay with the treatment. Well, in reality, the reason why they stayed to endure that horrible kind of leadership was because they had pensions. Well, the world now doesn't have pensions for most part. So people stay because they like the place or they like the culture. You know, another defining factor for me for leadership is, do I feel psychologically safe with that person? Yeah. And, you know, psychological safety and the ability to make state mistakes and the ability to make failures and view them as growth really defines a leader that's focused on the future and not just on the present or the past.   Michael Hingson ** 08:48 In the military, did people have much opportunity when they encountered somebody who wasn't necessarily a good leader to move elsewhere? I would think that that was probably more challenging to do than when you're working for a company, especially a large company, where you could transfer probably easier, is that true?   Paul Hylenski ** 09:08 Yeah, that that is true. So sometimes you had to endure it and and then you make the best out of a situation. And, you know, like I was saying earlier, sometimes that's where I learned, you know, as I was going through things that just didn't work, you know, and the way you talk to people and treat people, and just even the overall demeanor that you have as a leader, you know, matters. And everything you say is a communication, but everything you do is a communication as well. And a lot of leaders don't remember that, or they don't, you know, they don't visualize that I   Michael Hingson ** 09:45 know, for me personally, and you mentioned the whole concept of fear and intimidation, and I've experienced it from time to time for a variety of reasons, being blind and interacting with. People, I faced challenges because people tended to not necessarily view blindness as as they should. And so oftentimes I would have people say to me, Well, you got to work harder and different than everyone else, because you're blind and people aren't going to perceive you as being competent. Well, there's truth to that to a degree, but there are ways to approach that as a leader. And I would think that when you're telling someone all the time, you gotta be better, you gotta be smarter, and so on, as opposed to saying, how do we make sure that you shine as best as you possibly can? And I don't know when I adopted this method of operation, but one of the things that I discovered fairly early on was that as I was managing people, and when I started really hiring people and opening offices for companies, one of the things that I said to people was, look, I'm hiring you because you've demonstrated to me, or you've convinced me that you can do the job. So my job isn't to boss you around. My job is to work with you specifically to see how I can add value to what you're doing to make you the best performer that you can be. And what I discovered is that the people who really got that and understood it and chose to find ways that I could work with them and use the skills that I have, and oftentimes they took the lead in discovering what they thought that I could help with but we worked together, and when they got that concept, they really did perform a whole lot better than those who didn't get it.   Paul Hylenski ** 11:53 That's a great strategy.   Michael Hingson ** 11:55 Well, I think it's and it's important, because I think that fear and intimidation doesn't help anyone, and it doesn't help you or anyone to develop a real trust if you're just dealing with someone out of fear, as opposed to dealing with someone through trust and teamwork, it's a it can be a challenge. Yeah, I   Paul Hylenski ** 12:18 think you know, one of the things that we're finding out more and more and companies are finding out is they never really made significant headway to fix issues or to get real growth because of that fear and intimidation. And I mean, just take, just take mistakes. Right? If I'm afraid to make a mistake, I'm going to lie, cheat and steal my way out of that mistake. I'm gonna blame it on everyone else, but if I'm not afraid to make the mistake, then I'll tell you, as my leader, exactly what happened, and then as the leader, if you know exactly what happened, you can work corrective action and fix it and make the environment better. And that's where the beauty and the secret behind that is   Michael Hingson ** 13:01 well, or the other part of it is because you acknowledge the mistake and so on, the leader will let you do the corrective acting and take the corrective steps that need to be done, because especially that will be a good learning experience for you, but they're there to support you, which is really the issue.   Paul Hylenski ** 13:21 And I think when leaders change their mindset from failure being this negative connotation, and, you know, failure being this bad thing, to, hey, that's just another step towards our growth, you know. But what did you learn from it? Or what are you going to do different, right? All those things, then all of a sudden, people start to realize they're in a growth mindset. They can fail, they can learn, they can proceed, and then they end up growing. Yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 13:49 I think overall, people really do want to grow. They want to evolve, but the leader is, or ought to be, the person to help really create that environment for people.   Paul Hylenski ** 14:04 Yep, and spot on. I mean, who wakes up in the morning and says, Hey, I'm going to be a loser today. I'm going to be a failure today, right? Nobody, so. But people fail, and people might not get something, they might not understand something, and you're spot on. The leader has to be the one that's their cheerleader or their coach or their mentor or giving them direction on Hey, you didn't really do well on this, but this is what you need to do next time. Similarly, a different way, or   Michael Hingson ** 14:34 you didn't do well. Do you have any idea of why? Because it's always great if you can figure it out. You know, I have worked with guide dogs since 1964 and it took a couple of dogs for me to develop and begin to articulate this. But what I learned is that every time I got a new guide dog, and we would spend time at the school or whatever, what I. Really doing there is beginning the process of creating a bond with a new teammate. And no mistake, dogs are as much a part of a team as anyone else. If you allow that to happen, most people really look down on on dogs, but the reality is that they have a lot of senses, and they have a lot to contribute. And the thing is, if you believe people like Cesar Milano and so on, the thing is, dogs really want to be a part, and they really want you to tell them what you expect from them. And in that sense, it's really cool. They don't have hidden agendas like people often do. And so the difficulty with people with hidden agendas is it makes it more difficult to trust them, and sometimes you can break through that. And the hidden agenda isn't such a hidden agenda that isn't necessarily a negative agenda at all, but we tend to be very closed in terms of trusting others, because we're always concerned about what hidden agendas they have. Dogs, I believe, do love unconditionally, but I don't think that they trust unconditionally. But the difference between a dog and a person is that a dog is generally more open to trust, unless something just really hurt them, which is something typically that it would be a person who did that. But dogs are open to trust. And if you create that trusting relationship, it is second to none.   Paul Hylenski ** 16:34 That's that's interesting. Know that?   Michael Hingson ** 16:38 Yeah, they The reality is that they want to please. They want to do a good job. So I've learned over the years working with guide dogs, it is an extremely stressful job for them, because they want to please. They want to make it work. And they're being tested whenever, for example, the harness is on, even when it's off a lot. But when the harness is on, they watch, and have to watch a lot what's coming up at the street corner, the curb is coming up. I got to stop at the curb and make sure that my person stops at the curb. I tell the dog to go forward, and the dog sees there's a hybrid car coming, and I don't know it, because it's in battery mode and so I don't hear it, but the dog, if I create a good, teaming relationship with that dog, the dog knows that it has the authority to not budge to make sure that we don't get smushed by the car. Likewise, if everything is fine, then the dog will go. But the dog has a lot of decisions to make in the in the guiding process. They don't lead, they guide. It's my job to know where to go and how to get there, and I need to learn that as I travel and make that happen. And the neat thing about it is that when the dog understands I'm doing my job, it feels a lot better about doing its job, and it knows what its job is. And in reality, what that ultimately means is that we form a good team, supportive relationship. And I think that is something that because just as relevant in person to person, leadership and teamwork as it is in person to dog relationships, oh sure,   Paul Hylenski ** 18:27 the ability to trust each other and feel safe with each other, absolutely. Yeah. So,   Michael Hingson ** 18:33 so you've done a lot. What got you started in dealing with AI? What? What attracted you to that? Yeah,   Paul Hylenski ** 18:40 yeah. My fourth book was actually titled The evolution of leadership. So aI had just kind of started coming online. I started researching AI, and then I thought to myself, Okay, well, now that I've researched it, I'm going to start actually using it. And then I went to actually input it into a few businesses, and once I realized, like, wow, like, I could automate 50 to 60% of the business with AI. And I started noticing, like we had time to be proactive, not reactive. Then, then I realized, okay, I'm we're on to something most anybody. If you ask them about AI, they're just going to say, chat, GPT. But there's, you know, 1000 different platforms. There's AI automations. So I thought, Okay, people just don't know. And, you know, the more senior people are, the least, the less that they knew about, you know, AI and chatgpt and everything. So I thought, Okay, well, the, you know, baby boomers and a lot of the you know, millennials, they're running companies right now, or they own companies, but they're the ones that are not able to really use AI or new AI. So you. Know, I've really tried to put a focus on teaching practical AI. So not just the, not just the theory and all the, you know, school type of material, but actually how to utilize AI to benefit you and your business. And that's been, you know, really fantastic since we kicked the academy off, we've gotten formally accredited. So when you take, you know, certifications, one thing that's different is a lot of places you'll take AI certifications, and you just get a little certificate, but no credits, and it's not formally accredited. And that was one thing we put a lot of attention into because as business professionals, the whole point of taking training is to grow in your, you know, career and grow in your job. So, you know, accreditation and credentials matter. But, yeah, that's what got me started, and then now it's become a passion. I, you know, I do free training for veterans. We actually even started a software as a service to help veterans put their disability claims in and streamline that process. So it's been it's been really fantastic. AI has opened up a lot of opportunities. How does AI   Michael Hingson ** 21:18 help in that whole process of doing the claims, applications and so on. What does it say? So it's   Paul Hylenski ** 21:23 absolutely great. So this was our startup company, which was a derivative off of Quantum Leap, and it's called vet mentor AI, so we'll be releasing it towards the end of the year, and we've already used, utilized it on, you know, test veterans, where they've actually allowed us to help them put their applications in. So the problem is that, you know, for first time submittals for veterans, it's a 70% rejection rate rate, so a lot of veterans either don't know what to do, or maybe they're afraid to do it. And then one of the big things is PTSD and anxiety. There's a fair amount of veterans that really have high anxiety, or maybe have issues from their PTSD, where this process is daunting and the fact of going in front of a medical examiner is almost impossible for them. So the way it does it, or what it does is it allows the veteran to basically in plain language, right? What's wrong? So they'll fill out a very simple form. It's something that you know, someone with basic education can fill out, and it's basically a questionnaire. And then we have a proprietary AI software that we actually built that analyzes all that data, and then it's trained on the VA rating manuals. It's trained on the VA forms, the VA website. And so what it does is it actually tailors the person's claim to the VA rating manual. And by wording it like that, it actually allows the veteran to get this comprehensive report, which even asks the person, Hey, did you have this medical documentation? Did you think about filing for this secondary claim and and so then the second part of this is we actually built an AI platform to allow the veteran to do a simulated CNP exam. So what a cmp exam is, it's a medical exam where the veteran has to go in and actually get examinated, and you know, then that that doctor will determine if they, you know, meet the criteria. So what we've done is we've actually utilized AI and allowed them to do their medical examination with an AI. It even has a voice, so that they can talk to it like a person and imagine and this has been wildly successful for our veterans that have high anxiety or PTSD, because they're able to practice their their CNP exam, and you know, it will critique their answers. It will let them know, you know, what, what their rating would be, and all this thing in the background. And it's really amazing, because then when they go in for their real one they've already practiced, and they are less anxious, they're less nervous about it, and they make better decisions. So the one great thing, and I'm so proud of this, because being a veteran, this was something that was really hard for me, was, you know, submitting my disability claims, so the average failure rate is 70% on the first time submission but with vet mentor, all of our veterans, we are currently at an 80% acceptance rate on first time submittals. So we've flipped the strip the script, and you know, instead of a 30% approval rate, we're up to an 80% approval. Boring and   Michael Hingson ** 25:01 it's interesting, because what I'm really hearing is that, to a large degree, the AI system is helping to train, much less helping to create the actual information that has to be submitted. So it's kind of a double pronged approach to solving a problem,   Paul Hylenski ** 25:20 yeah, and it's, it does it. It prompts them for, you know, something simple that I never realized in the beginning of the process was a personal statement. So it helps them to actually generate a personal statement about their illness or injury or disability. And then, even more than that, it prompts you to put it in the proper form. So most veterans don't know, but if you don't upload your personal statement in the 4138 Bravo form, they actually discount it. And there's a lot of veterans that are are submitting just a Word document with a little handwritten thing, but it, you know, the AI, actually, when we started doing this, the AI picked up that, hey, this must be done in this form. And when we were looking at it, we were like, Oh my God. We didn't even know that. So the AI taught us when we were actually making it   Michael Hingson ** 26:13 well. And how long have you been doing this? So   Paul Hylenski ** 26:17 we've been doing this for four months. Little over 20 veterans. So we're in the middle of, we're in the middle of the end stages of, you know, building the rest of the site and the platform. We basically, when we started, we kind of had three or four different types of AI systems talking to each other. So we're actually building and consolidating it just into one that's a nice little format for a user. And the beauty part with with our software is it's a one time lifetime fee, so you pay $50 which covers the cost of the AI software in the background, and you have it for life. So as your your disabilities get worse with age, because we all know they do. You have the software for the rest of your life, and it's for only $50 which is starkly different than the A lot of the companies out there, which you know they're preying on veterans. And what they do is they take 1000s of dollars or percentages off of their disability every single month. So that's one of the things that we wanted to do when I made this company. It wasn't to make money, it was to impact the world. So that's why we keep it just as a lifetime fee, just a $50 one time, and you're done. So the veteran basically just pays for the software is   Michael Hingson ** 27:43 bit mentor, a nonprofit like a 501 c3 company. So no,   Paul Hylenski ** 27:47 we're not right now. We haven't done any of that yet, just because we want to build the platform,   Michael Hingson ** 27:54 it's fair. Um, you've got to start somewhere, needless to say. So   Paul Hylenski ** 27:59 we've helped. We've helped over 20 veterans so far. So that was the big thing, was we get we got veterans in the beginning that we're like, Okay, well, let's try it out. And then, you know, we've done a couple pitches. We've, you know, been getting investments in, in the platform and everything. And the intention is, you know, I want to roll this out nationwide to help veterans. There's a little over a million pending disability claims right now, and if you just go off of the you know, the standard statistics, 70% of them will get rejected. Yeah, and that is a horrible thing for a veteran who maybe is having trouble at work, or maybe their disability is impacting their ability to get promoted and and to have to go through that after they've honorably served the country. You know that I'm trying to fix that?   Michael Hingson ** 28:53 Do you see expanding this and also working with people who aren't veterans by any chance?   Paul Hylenski ** 29:01 So we haven't thought of that. But that is a great idea. I was actually so we, we're in the VA Pathfinder system, because my intention in the beginning was actually to partner with the VA, because imagine a VSO, or, you know, one of the members from VA who are helping the veterans have this tool to help them. You know, I think that would change the game too   Michael Hingson ** 29:26 well. I'm thinking, for example, there are a lot of people with disabilities who have to navigate and interact with their state rehabilitation systems and so many other things that might very well benefit from what you're doing and also who will learn a lot, and that will help them with their confidence as well, which is kind of what prompted my my question, and my thought about it like   Paul Hylenski ** 29:50 we haven't yet, but you got my mind thinking now, and you know what happens when that,   Michael Hingson ** 29:54 there you go, yeah, well, that's, that's always, that's always a good thing, not. A problem. So when you started really integrating AI into healthcare and doing the things that you were doing, what kind of challenges did you run into, or are you running into?   Paul Hylenski ** 30:13 Yeah, the first one was when I started integrating it into business, I met a lot of resistance, because people don't understand it. So even something as simple as chat GBT, right? Just go real basic into AI. Chat GBT. There's so many people right now that either haven't used it or are not using it or don't even know all of the things that it can do. If you have a business, if you're a business owner, if you're a manager, if you are doing office clerical work, chat, GPT can probably boost your productivity just by 30% and you know, I mean instantly you will feel the benefit. I use it to write emails. I use it to do charts, data analysis. You know, there's a there is so many uses. You know, you can use chat GBT to build a game show that then you can use that game show to go train people on Excel. I mean, it's amazing the amount of limitless things that you're able to do with it. But chat TBT is literally like one grain of sand in the beach that is AI, and most people don't know that. You know, there's another platform that's make.com it literally builds automations. So this call our podcast right now, you could have an automation that it would literally transcribe the the podcast, then it could send it into four or five different directions. We could do Google Doc, we could do a Google sheet, we could put a summary about it. It would do everything all in one just by hitting one button. And so businesses are starting to use this because it's automating most of the clerical work that they do.   Michael Hingson ** 32:04 I know that I'm not using AI nearly to the extent that I could even chat GPT, and part of it has been that I've found some inaccessibility issues in some of the buttons that aren't labeled and so on. So gee, maybe I'll have to talk into giving me a better lesson on using some AI stuff, but I appreciate and understand the concepts of it, and so I know what you're saying, and I've used it to write articles in the past. And what I do when I when I bring AI or chat GPT into it, is I'll tell it to write something, and then my job is to look at that and massage it and make it my own and add my own stuff to it. And in fact, I've I've actually told chat GPT to create something, and I've told it to do it six or seven times, and I take the best of all of those, plus what I contribute to it, and turn that into the article that I actually publish. But the I think the most important part about it is that I really know what it's it's doing, and what I'm doing, and I know that I have to be the one to control it. I can't just go off and let chat, GPT create something and then submit it. That's not only worthless, but it's it's certainly dishonest. I've said many times. You know, teachers talk about students that use chat GPT to write their papers and all that, and then they turn them in, and sometimes you can tell that they're written by chat GPT, and sometimes you can't, but teachers are worried about that. My reaction, and I have a secondary teaching credential, so I do understand something about all this. But my reaction is, I think that for chat for teachers, chat GPT is great if kids go off and write their own papers, great if they use chat GPT to do it. Great because at the end of the day, you turn the paper in, and then the teacher calls you up during a period and say, not offend your paper, you're going to know real quickly who really did the work and who didn't. Yeah,   Paul Hylenski ** 34:11 and, and, you know, you brought up some good points there, right? So I have a, I have a colleague on LinkedIn who's the AI educator, and so what he actually has done is he's put a lot of AI into education, and there are softwares that a lot of teachers are using now that actually detect chat. GBT, yeah, detects AI. You know, one of the best things that people can do, and this is something that most people know nothing about, but you can actually create a digital twin of yourself, and it's very easy to do on open AI, so you can create an assistant that's actually trained on how you write, how you sound, right? And so this, we did this very easily for me, where I. Downloaded all of my posts, all of my interactions, and everything from LinkedIn, and I trained it on all of my books. So what happens is is you literally have an AI system that talks like you, has your same tone, has the same humor that you do. And when I do my posts and everything I do kind of the same thing you do, where I'll have my digital twin create the post and then I massage it or whatever, or go through it and read it. But what I've found is definitely for automations and definitely for email writing, these digital twins that you're able to create for particularly marketing as well. They're pretty spot on. I mean, you would have a hard time telling the difference between my digital twin and my writing. Of   Michael Hingson ** 35:48 course, you're leaving yourself open to the obvious question, which one are you the twin or the real person? But that's okay, yes,   Paul Hylenski ** 35:56 that's a good one today. Are   Michael Hingson ** 35:59 you a robot or not,   Paul Hylenski ** 36:01 no. But people don't realize that. And you know, the beauty part of it, Michael is like, so if you own a small marketing company, I mean, you could create 30 to 60 days of content in literally a couple hours. If you have a digital twin, and it changes the game, because you're able to scale businesses, you're able to do things. You can set automations up. You know, on some of my emails, particularly my personal emails, depending on what is in the email, I have automations where the AI actually responds to the email and it sends it to my drafts and then, so at the end of the day, we do as I look at the draft email. I click it, I click it, I click it up. I don't like the way that read it. I'll delete that and write it for real. But for the most part, I'd say it's about 90% perfect. And you know, I took, I take maybe about two hours of emails and turn it into about 1520 minutes. And so then it gives me an extra hour and some change every single day just on that task.   Michael Hingson ** 37:06 So here's a question, actually. So you do the process that you just described, and you go off and you massage some of the emails because you didn't like the way your twin created them. How do you then make sure that your twin gets trained on your changes.   Paul Hylenski ** 37:23 Plus, you know, I mean, you That's exactly it's the whole point is you have to what I'll do is I'll basically copy and paste the email, put it into my digital twin and say I did not like maybe the word, a couple of the words they used, or I didn't like the tone of this email, and so that's the beauty part with chat. GPT, yeah, and you know, any, pretty much, any, AI, the whole point of it is fine tuning it, so you have to, but most people don't realize that you can talk to the AI because it responds. So like, if you say, I don't like this, it's not going to do that, and it's so important, and one of the hacks that a lot of people don't do. So when I create something, let's say a business plan or a coaching plan, and I'll create it, I'll ask chat GBT to critique it for me and then improve it. So now I have it created, then I have it critique it and improve it, and pretty much, at the end of that, I have a pretty perfect document. And that's changed a lot of the the ability that I but most people don't realize you can actually have it critique its own work,   Michael Hingson ** 38:36 yeah, and that's and that's the reason I asked the question, because that's really the whole point. It is a, it is a process, and AI is opening so many things. I work with a company called accessibe, and accessibe uses AI and what's, what's called a, well, it's, it's a, it's a process where it can generate the code that will make a website more accessible, called an overlay. Some people say they don't work and so on, because they believe that you got to manually code it. But in reality, I can find manual coders who don't always do a good job. But what accessibe does is that they have created a system out of necessity. They're in Israel, and in 2017 Israel said, websites need to be accessible. And these guys that all started this company in 2015 and the company was making websites for people, well, suddenly they had to make everything accessible. And they created an AI process that does a lot of that. It's expanding and it's improving over time, because there are things that it it didn't do well, and there are things that it will get better at as it goes forward. But the fact of the matter is that it does help make websites a lot more inclusive than they ever were. So for example, if you're a person with epilepsy and you go to a web. Site that uses accessibe, and there are blinking elements on that page that could cause you to have a seizure. You can go into a particular disability profile on accessibe That's for people with epilepsy, and disable those blinking elements. And the way it all works is that accessibe's widget transmits the code not to the website and modifies the website code. It transfers the information directly to my browser and and my browser and my screen reader that verbalizes to me doesn't care where the code comes from, as long as it's there. So it's really pretty clever, and it and it's and it's making quite a difference. It's got a long way to go, but AI is new autonomous vehicles have a long way to go. They're pretty new, but they're getting better. So it's, it's a process, right?   Paul Hylenski ** 40:52 We're at the beginning of this, and it's, you know, starting to really grow. And so, like, you know, people, people just, you know, a lot of people are still resistant to it and, and there's good reasons for that, right? I mean, this is going to be very dangerous as much as it's going to be good, right? I mean, with the deep fakes and all the ability that you allow people to do with it, they but there's that much good with it too and knowing it. And once you start knowing it and knowing what to look for and learning it and everything, then you can start to pick up on maybe some not so good ways of using it, or, you know, the ethics about it, or, you know, the transparency about Yeah, how do   Michael Hingson ** 41:38 you balance the technological innovations and the ethics in, in what you do, yeah,   Paul Hylenski ** 41:45 for me, so that's part of what we teach in the academy. So like, the first and I have five levels there. Each level goes up, but in, in the first level, it's all about, like, AI and business. So there's a fair amount of, you know, ethics, transparency and everything about proprietary data, not putting certain data into it, you know. So for me, it's that is the biggest key, because especially with vet mentor, you know, you're dealing with really touchy areas, medical information and everything. And, you know, while it's kind of sanitized because of our process, you know, it's still it's new. And, you know, and with anything new, there's going to be some type of resistance, there's going to be questions, and people with the lack of information, they make up their own, right, and that's where you get a lot of the confusion about AI right now, but I think it's important to realize that, you know, this is new, so you have to tread carefully. And you know, the best way to actually protect yourself is to educate yourself, yeah, um,   Michael Hingson ** 42:55 and, you know, the internet and itself, it's got the dark web, and the web that's not so dark, and there are, there are going to be people who will misuse it, but what we we need to learn is how to bring ethical decisions into it, and over time, hopefully, we can bring down a lot of The the so called Dark Web, and let people know or or get people to understand that's inappropriate behavior. And I think the same thing with AI. And yes, you're going to see people who get fooled. You're going to have a lot of challenges, but there is so much positivity that can come from it that is is even more important than the negative parts,   Paul Hylenski ** 43:41 yep. And I think, you know, there's, there are companies out there, because I've talked to a couple of their CEOs that are actually building AI systems to detect negative AI, right, like, so they can detect the deep fakes and everything. And, you know, AI the one, the one touchy thing that it's done so in the in the past, you know, before the internet and everything, if somebody wanted to steal from you, they had to walk up to you and steal from you. They had to pick pocket you, or actually rob you. So you got to see the person's face as they were taking something from you. When the internet came, you had hackers that had no face, right? He was just this person on the other end of the computer, and they could steal your information or steal your money. Well, the problem with AI in this manner is, and why we have to be careful and we have to protect against this is, now it's your daughter. Now it's your husband, your wife, your boss, that comes on the screen and says, I need you to make this transfer. I need money, right? And it's really the thieves, but they've been able to clone, you know, your family member, so now the people stealing from you look like and sound like people that. You care about, and that is why it is getting drastically more difficult to identify some of these, you know, really tough ways that it's being used. So I'm excited to see the innovation that keeps us going to come out, you know, with some of these companies to actually screen for those deep fakes, because then I think once you can get rid of or regulate some of that negative usage, then people really will just focus on the positivity that it gets.   Michael Hingson ** 45:29 Yeah, because the reality is that it can be so positive for everyone, and that if people really learn that and catch on to it and ethically use it, there's, there's no end to the capabilities and the positive things that they can bring about.   Paul Hylenski ** 45:48 I mean, you have 10 year old children now coding websites because they've made it so easy they can literally type in to code a game. People are making their own games. You can go on Claude AI and literally make a web application. Just by saying, make a web application for a loan calculator. So you can create anything in the world. And before, I used to have to know how to code if I wanted to make something like that. Now I just type in what I want, and it spits it out,   Michael Hingson ** 46:20 yeah, yeah, and it's it is going to get better, which is really what makes it so cool. And I hope that people will catch on and understand that being positive and doing it ethically really is better and worth more than than the alternative.   Paul Hylenski ** 46:39 And I think so too. I think once we figure ways to have the AI protect against the AI, I think, I think it'll be even better, too. And, you know, I'm excited, because from the students that I've had in the academy, so many people from beginner level to where they thought they knew, you know, they thought they knew chat GBT. They thought they knew automations. It's been great because you see the light bulb click on, when some people are like, Oh, my God. Why was I taking a week to do that? And you just did it in five minutes. And you know, our level four is where you actually learn how to build a software as a service. And you know, our students walk away with a fully functional AI business. And there's not many schools, there's not many academies that you'll ever walk away with actually real practical knowledge or a real business.   Michael Hingson ** 47:38 Yeah, and that's what makes it so cool, and it it certainly helps to empower people a lot, doesn't it?   Paul Hylenski ** 47:45 Yeah, I mean, we had a school teacher build a CRM platform that then she took and she went and sold it to five different companies, and they're using her platform that we built in two days with AI, it was so crazy. And she's like, I never thought I'd be able to do something like this. And it's true, because five years ago, she would have never been able to do that, because that wasn't her specialty. Right now, you know, she built a fully functioning Software as a Service, and it was, it was the most beautiful thing to see. Her eyes light up at the end of it, where it was, like, I just built this.   Michael Hingson ** 48:24 Yeah, it is so cool that she's recognizing that she's still the one who did it and she used tools, but she's still the one who did it,   Paul Hylenski ** 48:34 yep, yep. And it's, that's really what's amazing is you can, you know, you show people, I bring up, you know, a lot of examples, but most, most people don't realize what they actually have the power to. And a lot of people come on, especially the level one people come in and say, I can't learn this. This is just so hard for me. And then once you start breaking it down to a very simplistic level of, hey, this is how to prompt. This is how the system reads your words. And once you understand that, then everything else starts to make sense. And it's so beautiful, because you have people, you know, creating things they never thought they could before, yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 49:20 that's what makes it so fun. And people do want to be creative, which is great. You've written several books. I know one you've written. I'm intrigued about. We haven't discussed it yet, error proofing, humans Tell me about that.   Paul Hylenski ** 49:33 Yeah, so error proofing, I love the title. Oh, it's great. And, you know, I got so many comments on that so that book, actually, I'm so proud of it, because it was an Amazon bestseller. You know, I've been on a book tour with it and everything. So I originally brought that book up because I thought, okay, error proofing humans there. So everybody you know commented and said, You can't error proof a human. That. Is the whole point of the book. So every human in the world makes anywhere from three to five mistakes per hour, if they're trained on a topic. Now that goes up by 11 times, potentially if they're they're not trained. So you have people every day making mistake after mistake. Now, most of them are what they call micro mistakes, and they're detectable, right? So you can detect, okay, I typed in the wrong letter, so I hit the backspace or whatever. But when you're doing some tasks, if you have that many mistakes, sometimes you don't detect them, or sometimes you can't correct them, and that's when we have accidents and injuries and everything. So the whole point of the book is, what if you could error proof processes and finally make an error proof human so what we do is we follow, and I did all the in the book. It's all the science and psychology behind human error, how to eliminate it or mitigate it. And one of the one of the key strategies that I'll leave with, like your viewers and listeners, is the Swiss cheese method. Now you can use this in your in your house, you can use this in your business. And it was made up by air, created by a guy named James Reason. And what he said was every process was like a piece of Swiss cheese. It had holes that the error or the accident could go through. So the only way to truly error proof human is to layer peace upon peace upon peace. And every failure you have means that the process isn't robust enough, so you have to add another layer of process. And what happens is, after a while, just like pieces of Swiss cheese laid up on after each other, the holes don't line up after a while, and all of a sudden you have error proof humans. And so we've done this in multiple businesses, and it has transformed their quality numbers. It has transformed their safety numbers. And what happens is, and when you can get people behind things like this, you know, you change the entire culture of the of the company or the business, or even at home. You could do these things that I say it in the book. You can do this with your children. You can do this with yourself, right to to make less and less mistakes. And you know, one of the things that a lot of people don't realize too, one of the other key main things, and then I'll get off the book, but one of the key main things the book is, you know, a high frequency, low risk activity like walking. So 30% of all injuries in a workplace are slips, trips and falls. And you'd ask yourself, well, how come people can't walk? Well, they can walk, right? But, well, I don't look at my feet when I walk, because it's a high frequency low risk, so my mind becomes immediately complacent. But if I were to drive a fork truck, or, let's say, operate a crane with a heavy load, every little sound that thing makes, I'm going to be on super high alert so people don't typically get injured on those high risk, low frequency jobs. So what you have to do in a workplace is you actually have to change the risk dia or dynamic to make it feel more risky. And by layering process after process, and sometimes check after check, you increase the risk profile, which decreases complacency,   Michael Hingson ** 53:44 yeah, which makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Yep, and, and I think that that in reality, we take so many things for granted. Gi, I don't know. I think there are a lot of drivers out there who consider driving like walking. It's high frequency and low risk, and it's not. And the way they drive, though, you'd think they think otherwise, yep,   Paul Hylenski ** 54:06 and that's why there's a lot of accidents, you know, but, and you know, there's a study that said the most accidents happen closer to the person's property, closer to the person's house. And you know, when you look at that, it's because I'm getting closer to home. I'm comfortable with the area. I become more complacent, and now I might run through that stop sign, or I might, yeah, make that turn a little faster than normal. So it's it's really important in an environment, and as we as leaders craft our environment. We need to look at the risk profile. We need to look at our processes.   Michael Hingson ** 54:47 It's also true that what we have to do is to learn to be more disciplined about what we do. And I think that's a lot of what you're saying. When you get closer to home, you tend to be more undisciplined, but you've got to keep the discipline. Plan all the way through the process? Yeah, absolutely. And that doesn't necessarily always happen. Were you a pilot when you were in the Marines? No,   Paul Hylenski ** 55:10 so I was a, I was actually worked on helicopters in the Marine Corps, and then after the Marine Corps, I said, you know, I want to, I want to fly and and so I got my pilot's license. It was one of the best things I ever did in my life. And, you know, it taught me a lot about complacency, because being a pilot and checklists and everything, the entire cockpit is designed to defeat complacency, yeah, and, you know, but I was telling a story last week, you know, the most deadly time for a pilot is between 250 and 500 hours. And you think to yourself, again, these are experienced pilots, like, why would somebody, you know, be more dangerous than than a brand new pilot? And it's because of that risk protein as a brand new pilot, everything matters. I'm going through every single checklist item, every noise that the aircraft makes. I'm hyper vigilant. But after about 250 or 250 to 500 hours, now I'm confident. I'm used to the plane. I'm we might skip my checklist, I might do something riskier than normal, right? And that's the complacency death trap, right there.   Michael Hingson ** 56:28 Yeah. And so after 500 hours, you have done it enough that, in theory, it dawns on you. I've got to stay disciplined. I've got to do this the right way, like I did at the beginning, and it makes me safer, and it makes the flight safer.   Paul Hylenski ** 56:45 Yup and, and sometimes, and a lot of pilots have told me that sometimes during that little 250 to 500 you have a lot of near mistakes or mistakes that you learn from pretty quickly. Yeah and, and then that's enough for them to say, Yep, I gotta break myself of this. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 57:05 exactly, right. Well, and we're we're seeing so many things at airports now. It's crazy. I don't understand how so many airplanes either collide with each other, or other equipment collides with them and so on. How come we're seeing a lot more of that than we used to   Paul Hylenski ** 57:22 think. Well, I have to be honest, I think as the travel keeps getting more and more, right, you're going to probably see a lot more of this, because it's taxiing. So taxiing for a pilot is at one of those low risk, yeah, high frequency things, right? I'm just, I'm literally down, I'm not in the air. You feel safe because you're on the ground. You're, you know, you're steering it. And a lot of times, they're also very task saturated while they're taxiing. Yeah, so one thing most people don't see is while they're taxiing, they're going through checklists, they're prepping. And, you know, you don't have a good view of around you in the cockpit. You only have a window that you really can't see in the back. And you know, so the reduced visibility, the high you know, high task saturation, and then that, you know, high frequency, low risk. It's perfect environment for complacency to crop up   Michael Hingson ** 58:20 well. And the reality is, a lot of times it's not a pilot's fault that something happened. They're also relying on other people, whether it's air traffic controllers or whatever. And so there are just a lot of issues, and I think that it is something that hopefully National Transportation Safety Board and the FAA and so on, will work more on to try to eliminate more of those accidents. I have a friend whose daughter went on a vacation last Saturday with her husband, and as they were backing away from the terminal, they got hit by some sort of piece of equipment, and it to late, everything by a day. I don't know any of the details, but just so many of those things happen. We we've got to not allow things to be taken for granted. But I, I would not at all say it necessarily wasn't any way a pilot error, because there's no way to for me to know that, and it probably wasn't, but it still happened, which is, which   Paul Hylenski ** 59:19 is, there's humans everywhere. So humans are prone to mistake. And you know exactly the point of the book is, you're never going to error proof a human, but you can air proof processes. Yep,   Michael Hingson ** 59:32 you can do that. Well, if people want to reach out to you and learn more about you, what you do, maybe become involved in your courses and so on. How do they do that?   Paul Hylenski ** 59:41 Yes, so the best, and I love for people to do this. I have a fantastic network and a community on LinkedIn. So the best way to reach me, and you can reach me personally, is through LinkedIn. Just look up my name, Paul Hylenski, and then if you are interested in. Learning. Ai Mike, it's Quantum Leap Academy. So it's www, dot Quantum Leap academy.org, so it's gonna be.org yeahlin ski   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:12 for me,   Paul Hylenski ** 1:00:12 please. So, h, y, l, e, n, s, k, I,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:17 so, Paul Hylenski on LinkedIn, which makes sense? Yep, and that's it cool. Well, I want to thank you for being here and being a part of this today. It's been educational for me, and it's been a lot of fun. I value the time that we spent, and maybe in the future, if you think we ought to talk some more, I'm always glad to do that. We can, can do more of this, but I really appreciate all the sound knowledge and advice that you shared, and I hope everyone out there listening and watching appreciated it as well. Love to hear from you. If you would let us know what you thought about our podcast today, you can reach me through email, Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael hingsons, M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O n.com/podcast, wherever you're listening, though, we hope that you like this well enough that you'll give us a five star rating as a review. We really value your reviews. We love them. Please give us a review. And if you've reviewed us on earlier podcasts, don't stop. We'd like to hear it about this one too. We really look forward to your comments and your thoughts. If you know of anyone who ought to be a guest, and Paul you as well. If you think of anyone else who you think ought to come on our podcast, we'd love to hear from you. We're always looking for new friends to make and new people who have stories to tell. So feel free to do it, and we, we'd love to to hear from you in whatever you do. So Paul, again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely a lot of fun and and I hope we get to do more of it in the future. Yeah. Thank   Paul Hylenski ** 1:01:59 you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity, and this has been great. Thank you, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:07 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

I have been looking forward to talking with our guest, Louise Baxter, for several months. I met Louise through one of our regular podcast guest finders, accessiBe's own Sheldon Lewis. Louise has always lived in Sydney Australia although she has done her share of traveling around the world. She attended some college at night although she never did complete a college degree. Don't let that prejudice you, however. Her life experiences and knowledge rival anyone whether they have a college degree or not.   While attending college Louise worked in clerical positions with some marketing firms. Over time she attained higher positions and began working as a brand or product manager for a number of large well-known companies.   At some point she decided that she wanted to bring a more human-service orientation to her work and left the commercial world to work in not for profit organizations. Part of her work was with the Starlight Foundation in Australia, but she didn't feel she was challenged as much as she wanted to be. So, in 2007 she left Starlight, but in 2009 the Starlight board convinced her to come back as the CEO of the organization.   Louise has brought an extremely positive thinking kind of management style to her work. Starlight in general has to be quite positive as it works to ease the burden of sick children in hospitals and at home. You will get to hear all about Captain Starlight and all the many ways the foundation Louise directs has such a positive impact on sick children around Australia. The life lessons Louise discusses are relevant in any kind of work. I am certain you will come away from this episode more inspired and hopefully more positive about your own life and job.       About the Guest:   LOUISE BAXTER is Chief Executive Officer, Starlight Children's Foundation. Louise has significant experience in senior roles in the commercial and NFP sectors and is described as an “inspiring and authentic leader”. In 2009 Louise returned to the NFP sector as Starlight's Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director. Louise's focus on exceptional experiences and relationships has seen improved metrics across all areas of Starlight. Louise is regularly asked to speak on topics such a positivity, organisational resilience, diversity, and innovation. She is passionate about the creation of organisational purpose and believes this is key to delivering maximum impact through people. She practices positive leadership and has been successful in developing high performing teams within a culture where change is embraced, and innovation is embedded.   Always thinking like a marketer…. Louise's personal journey and reasons behind the shift from corporate to the For Purpose sector. After more than 20 years in marketing and advertising in roles at ARNOTTS, Accor & Johnson & Johnson & in agencies such as Leo Burnett working on brands from Mortein to Coco pops, Louise's journey and the insights she brings as CEO are unique. The very first time Louise became aware of Starlight was actually doing a promotion for one of her clients (when she was in sales/marketing) who was partnering with Starlight. Just seeing the work of Starlight, made her feel so pleased that there was now something that changed and reframed the hospitalization and treatment experience for families like a family she knew as a child with a child suffering from leukemia.    The business acumen needed to thrive and succeed in the For Purpose sector. Often the perception is NFP is a step into the slow lane. Far from it. Louise refers to leading Starlight as if it is in ‘eternal start up mode' and bringing business acumen, finding ways to be efficient and driving growth.     Our business… is the business of brightening lives…. The business growth and success of Starlight since she began from 65 people & 120,000 positive experiences delivered to children, to a team of more than 300 delivering over 1million++ positive Starlight experiences to seriously ill children including more than 13,000 children's Starlight wishes granted.   Louise has lead Starlight through some of the most challenging times. Her positive impact has seen Starlight grow from strength to strength. Starlight enjoys a tremendously creative and innovative culture. Including ‘Most Innovative Company' accolade - an achievement which was achieved under Louise's Leadership.   Starlight Programs growth will be stronger over the next 3 years than it would have been without Covid as programs which Transform and Connect rebuild and programs which Entertain grow. As does fundraising as we layer our face-to-face events back over our digital innovations which have taken off.  We have our creative/innovative culture to thank for this. Stories of personal connections made with Starlight children & families who began their journey more than 20 years ago and flourished thanks to the work of Starlight, including now adults Nathan Cavaleri and Dylan Allcott OAM.   Over the years Louise has been personally involved in many of Starlight's fundraising campaigns, once literally putting her body on the line as she flew over the handlebars and was carried away from the cycling course injured on Great Adventure Challenge.     Storytelling is at the heart of Starlight's success, growth & behind the organisations' ability to connect its stakeholders to its purpose. Louise's has largely led this approach to drive advocacy, differentiation & brand recognition – now one of Australia's most recognised children's charities Passionate about DEI: One of the first things Louise did as CEO was to deliberately approach diversity at Starlight and this continues today. To effectively support the people & families we support, our team members need to reflect this. DEI is addressed at every level.. Inc Board & Exec split to Captains in SER.    Louise considers herself very lucky – her birthday is actually on International Women's Day: IWD, 8 March. She is an active member of Chief Executive Women, an advocate for female empowerment & equity and in incredible role model.   Ways to connect with Louise:   Starlight Children's Foundation Australia Website: www.starlight.org.au Louise Baxter's LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/louisebaxter   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone. Welcome once again to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. It's a fun thing to say I am your host. Mike Hingson, our guest today is the CEO of the starlight foundation in Australia, Louise Baxter, we met Louise through Sheldon Lewis and accessibe, which is always fun. Sheldon is a good supplier of folks, and we can't complain a bit about that. It's a good thing. And so today we're going to learn about Starlight Foundation, and we're going to learn about Louise, and we'll see what else we learned. That's why it's often called the unexpected. Meet anyway, Louise, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Louise Baxter ** 02:04 Thank you, Michael, it's lovely to be here.   Michael Hingson ** 02:08 Well, why don't we start the way I love to start. Why don't you tell us kind of about the early Louise growing up and some of those sorts of things and adventures you got into, or anything that you want to divulge? Okay,   Louise Baxter ** 02:20 alright. Well, I live in Sydney, Australia, and have done my whole life I've traveled a lot, but I've remained here in Sydney. And so life in Sydney was just blissful. And I think what I remember most is just having fun with my friends. It was back in the day where, as a child, you'd leave home on your bike early in the morning, and nobody expected you back till later, often in the afternoon, before dinner, and we had Bush nearby. I can remember catching tadpoles I sailed from the age of eight. My father was a skiff sailor here in Australia and and I had my first time in a Sabo at age eight, we went to the beach a lot, so there was surfing and fun in the sun. I played a lot of sports. So I'm a netball player, which is kind of similar to basketball, but a bit different. I played squash, so a lot of things happening, a very busy life, and I grew up. And I think this is the important thing with parents who were not well off themselves, but were, I mean, we were. We had a lovely life, but they were always raising funds, and our house was a center for raising funds for people who were less fortunate, or that helping out with the local netball club and things like that. So, so I grew up with parents who were very committed to working hard but always giving back, even though they weren't, you know, high net worth people themselves. So I think that's, you know, a great basis for for who I am today.   Michael Hingson ** 04:18 So you went to school and and all those sorts of things like everybody else did. How did your attitude about dealing with people who were probably less fortunate than many and so on really affect what you did in school? Or did you really sort of hone that found that that that spirit later? No,   Louise Baxter ** 04:42 no, I was always involved at school and raising funds. And even, you know, it took us a couple of busses to get to the beach back in the day. So I was in a local youth group, and we made a decision to raise the funds so that we could have one of the fathers, so that we could. Buy a bus, have one of the fathers drive the bus and get us to the beach on Saturday in quick time. So always looking for ways to never taking no or that's hard for an answer, I suppose, always being able to be part of the solution and get things done. So that was happening while I was at school as well.   Michael Hingson ** 05:21 That's kind of cool. So you bought a bus so that everybody could get to the beach. How many people were there that had to get there and use the bus? We   Louise Baxter ** 05:28 had about 40 or 50 people. And during the school holidays, we convinced one of the, a couple of the parents to take us on a trip through far west into, I'm supposing, what into our outback. So we went into kind of desert type lands, and we camped and a shearing a sheep station let us sleep in the shearing sheds overnight. So that was quite an adventure as well. And we did that for one school holidays on that bus.   Michael Hingson ** 06:02 So was the the bus? Well, who owned the bus was it? Was it a school bus, or who owned it   Louise Baxter ** 06:09 the youth group that we, the group did fundraising? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 06:13 cool, yeah. That's pretty unique.   Louise Baxter ** 06:17 I have great memories of that with, you know, green tree frogs in the toilets. Whenever you went to use a bathroom, they were always there looking at you and all of those kind of funny things that you remember, you know, watching and learning farm life and seeing some of the animals sitting on the fence while they were being branded and castrated and all kinds of things, but from as a city kid that was that was really valuable,   Michael Hingson ** 06:47 pretty and unique, but certainly the experience was well worth it, as long as you embraced   Speaker 1 ** 06:53 it. Yes, exactly, yeah. So   Michael Hingson ** 06:57 does that bus still exist today? Or does the youth group still exists now with new youth, that's a very long time ago. Michael, well, I didn't know whether it might have continued with new youth,   Louise Baxter ** 07:07 no. And I, you know, moved locations in Sydney, so I'm not quite sure what's happening there. Now, it'd   Michael Hingson ** 07:14 be exciting if new youth came along and took it over, but yeah, things happen and things evolve.   Louise Baxter ** 07:22 I'm just gonna say their parents probably drive them everywhere now. Yeah, it's   Michael Hingson ** 07:26 gonna say probably the adventure isn't quite the same as it used to be. No   Louise Baxter ** 07:30 exactly,   Michael Hingson ** 07:31 and, and that has its pluses, I suppose, and its minuses, but there, there are also more scary things in one sense in the world now than there used to be. Don't you think,   Louise Baxter ** 07:43 yeah, there are, well, there could be, or maybe, maybe we know more about it now because of our media and communications. So you know, all the kind of predators that impact you as children were around then, I suppose the accidents in cars are up because use of cars has increased. So, yeah, there are. There are different things that impact people nowadays. But us human beings, we're pretty resilient and and we always work out a way through, yeah, well, there's also, there's also a story from my childhood that I think is very relevant for what I do at Starlight, and that story is that you know how you have those family friends, who you grow up with, and you go on holidays with, etc. Well, that family for us, their eldest son was diagnosed with cancer, and back then, survival rates for cancer were very different to what they are today, and much lower. And he died when I was about 12, but as a child, I observed him suffering the pain of the treatment, and there was nothing like Starlight back then. And I saw also the impact that his illness had on his family. And I often think back to him, to those moments now that I'm at Starlight, because Starlight would have changed that situation and made it very different and far more positive for that boy and his family, and I think about about him and what they went through kind of regularly. So it's one of those things that's a childhood. It's a lived experience from my childhood, which, you know still kind of resonates with me today.   Michael Hingson ** 09:44 Well, yeah, and you know, we're, we're constantly evolving. So you can, you can think about that, and you can think about what might have been, but at the same time, the the real issue is, what have you learned? And. How can you now take it forward? And I think, as I said, that's all about embracing the adventure,   Louise Baxter ** 10:04 absolutely, absolutely and so absolutely take that forward,   Michael Hingson ** 10:09 yeah, which is really what you have to do. So you went to college, I assume, yeah.   Louise Baxter ** 10:15 And I actually went part time at night, so I actually went straight into a work environment. And for an organization, and was in the marketing team, just doing basic clerical work, and then I studied part time at night, so did a bit differently.   Michael Hingson ** 10:33 Yeah, well, did you end up eventually getting a degree? No,   Louise Baxter ** 10:37 I have no degree. Which is, which is something that's not, is very unusual in the United States. I know, oh, I don't know   Michael Hingson ** 10:49 that it's that unusual. But the the other side of it is that what you learn and how you put it to use and how you evolve is pretty significant. And that's, of course, part of the issue. Not everyone has a college degree, and sometimes the people with college degrees aren't necessarily the the brightest spots in the constellation either. Absolutely, it's,   Louise Baxter ** 11:13 yeah, there's a lot through lived experience, but I have, yeah, I've studied at various times, and most recently, I was awarded a scholarship. And I've had the experience of doing two short courses at Stanford University in the States, and I'm now on the board of the Stanford Australia Foundation, and so that's been a wonderful experience as a mature age student.   Michael Hingson ** 11:42 That's fair. Yeah, I just recently was inducted into Phi Beta Kappa, which formed the chapter at my university the year I was leaving, so I was able to go to the organizing meeting, but that was it, because then I got my master's degree and left and through circumstances, it was learned that all that happened. So last year, I was called and asked if I wanted to become an alumni member. So I got to be so I finally got to be a member of fraternity. Well, there you go. Congratulations. Well, it's a lot of fun, yeah, and I, and I treasure it and honor it a great deal, and spent a day down at my old university. I haven't really spent a lot of time there since graduating, well, back in 1976 with my master's degree in some business courses. So it's been 48 years. So there you go. Time flies. Well, so what did you do? So you you were working in the marketing world, in a clerical sort of thing, and what did you do from there? I   Louise Baxter ** 12:55 then became an assistant brand manager, a brand manager or product manager, whatever you want to call it, and I worked at Reckitt and Coleman. I worked at Johnson and Johnson and at Arnot snack foods. And Arnot snack foods was interesting because it was a joint venture with Pepsi foods from the US, because they were interested in the biscuit technology from Arnott's, and Arnot was interest interested in their snack food technology. And so what we had was a situation where we were sharing our expertise, and as a result, I was on the team, and we launched Cheetos, Fritos, Doritos into Australia, so they didn't exist here prior to that. Obviously Johnson and Johnson also, you know, big multinational, as is reckoned and Coleman. And then, after a number of years working on client side, I decided I wanted to move to the agency world. And I moved to Leo Burnett advertising agency, where I stayed for a decade. I was on the board there. I managed accounts like the Proctor and Gamble and kill on businesses as well as local businesses like tourism businesses and and wine so hospitality businesses here in Australia, very big wine company and and also the United distillers business back then. So had a lot of experience from both the client and agency side of working on big brands and growing big brands, which I absolutely loved, and we had a lot of fun, you know, along the way, in those days at all of the organizations where I worked, I made a lot of friends, and it's always important to have great friends from those experiences. And then I considered I actually left after i. Left Leah Burnett, I started an agency with two other people that's called Brave New World, which still exists to this day. I haven't been part of that for a long time, and then I had this moment of considering that I could potentially do something more worthwhile with my skills than than selling the products I'd been selling for all those years, and that's when I first made the decision to move to the what I referred to as the profit for purpose sector, and moved to Starlight in a role, and at that time, that was just a six month maternity position role. And I did that because I had great experience of brands from the client and agency side and promotions, so above and below the line. Promotions. I had worked on promotion supporting charity so cause related marketing campaigns. And I felt that the one thing I was missing if I wanted to go back into a corporate, into a corporate social responsibility role. Was that experience of working in a charity, and so I thought at that stage that my, my of journey was going to be back to a corporate because at that time, if you think this is over 20 years ago, triple bottom line was, and the third sector was really becoming important to organizations and to corporates. And so I thought I'd take my skills and go back to a corporate what I did instead was I went to starlight, as I said. It was a six month contract, but after three months, then CEO came out and said, What would it take to keep you here? I loved what I was doing, and I stayed at Starlight. I did stay for six, seven years. I then left and went back to corporate world, and I came back to starlight. So I left at the end of, what am I of? I left at the end of 2007 I came back in 2009 so I had that experience of back in the corporate world, and I came back as a CEO. It's   Michael Hingson ** 17:20 interesting. You started out in, as you said, in clerical work, but you started out in marketing, which, which you liked, what, what caused you to do that? Why marketing? Why marketing and sales, if you will?   Louise Baxter ** 17:33 Well, I love, I love marketing. I love brands, and I love the fact that, you know, brand is a living and breathing thing, and you can grow and change a brand. And I love, I love all the learnings around consumer insights. That was my specialty within marketing. So actually understanding that consumer behavior, and what I say about marketing is it's, it's hardly rocket science, because if you look at a young child, they recognize that they speak differently and use different language and words, etc, when they're speaking to their friends, when they're speaking to their grandparents, when they're speaking to their teachers, when they're speaking to their siblings, and so already, the concept of I have a different consumer in front of me, and I need to change my language and what I'm saying and my communication skills. Need to tweak. A child understands that from a very early age. So when I think about marketing, that's what you're doing the whole time. You're changing what you're the what you're saying and the way you say it, so that you engage more strongly with your consumer, and that's what I love about it, because communication is just so powerful, and you can take people on a journey. I'm also you know you can change behavior before you change the attitude, but ultimately you can move people and kind of change their thinking and their their their habits.   Michael Hingson ** 19:11 What's a really good example that you participated in of that I love a marketing story, loving sales and marketing as I do, I'd love to hear a good marketing story. Um,   Louise Baxter ** 19:22 well, there's, there's, there's quite a few. And I'll, I'll give you one. There was, I used to work on all the roads and traffic authority business, and at that stage, we were responsible for handling all the campaigns, from speeding to seat belts to drink driving, etc. And what was really powerful about those was your results were that every day you came into work and the road toll was there, and the road toll was, you know, up or down. And to work on campaigns which, over years, reduced the road toll because of the messages that you would keep. Communicate to people about speeding, etc. So whether people believed that they should be going, if you know, 10 kilometers slower in that particular zone or not, the messages of you know of penalties being caught, whatever the messaging you used to slow them down in that moment worked, and that saved lives. So, you know, that's, that's an example. I also worked on brands such as Special K, you know, and and for me, seeing, we created a fantastic campaign here that ran for about 20 years, and it was based on the the traditional Special K ads where women would wear clothes that they had years ago. And this one was about a mini skirt, but it was done in such a way that the woman was Stuart was the strength in the TV commercial. She was the lead. And that grew the business, and grew Special K at that time, at like, three times the market average for any, you know, product growth. So to see those things, and what I love is the results. And you you get it very strongly in those moments and and it's exciting.   Michael Hingson ** 21:17 You mentioned having been involved with working with Fritos and so on, which strikes a nerve when I lived in New Jersey, somewhere along the way, ranch flavored Fritos came into existence, but they didn't last very long, and I miss ranch flavored Fritos   Louise Baxter ** 21:34 we used to do when I worked on those snack food brands. We did so much testing and to to create tastes that are suitable, because tastes do change significantly, you know, region to region, and so ensuring that we had exactly the right flavors that would resonate and and sell here was really important to us. But along the way, we had some shockers, and we did have a lot of the specialist from FRITO lay in the states out working with us to craft those flavors. So we eventually got ones that worked here and for this region.   Michael Hingson ** 22:13 Yeah, and I'm sure that that must be what what happened that ranch flavored Fritos just didn't sell enough. In   Louise Baxter ** 22:20 cell Michael, you didn't have enough friends,   Michael Hingson ** 22:23 I guess not. Well, we didn't know enough people in New Jersey. What can I say? But, but we contributed as much as we could. My wife and I both loved them, and we we bought ranch flavored Fritos every chance we got. But unfortunately, that really probably wasn't enough to keep it going. So we, we mourn the loss of ranch flavored Fritos. But you, you did that, and it's interesting, because if I were to bake this observation, in a sense, although part of your job has changed, part of your job hasn't changed, because it's still all about marketing and educating people. Of course, now you're on the not for profit side, but that's okay, but what you're doing is teaching and educating, and now you're doing it for more of a social cause than a profit cause.   Louise Baxter ** 23:21 You're exactly right what we're doing every day because is, we're marketing our organization, and it's all about communication, and that communication might be very different with, you know, high net donors to community groups who support us in terms of how they connect with us. The impact stories are the same, although you also learn that certain individuals might prefer programs that support children, or might support prefer programs supporting older people, older children, or might support programs that support our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children. And so you learn that through all your discussions. So it's all about hearing, because marketing is about really listening and and so I am still, you know, everything we do is about really listening and really hearing from the kids and the young people we support. You know, we need to listen to their situation and what, from our program's perspective, is working for them. So I feel it's very, very similar to what I did, because I was a product manager, so I was always listening to our customers to create more relevant products, and then communicating to people so that they we could sell those products. And the difference here is, back then they were the same people, so you would listen to your customers, then you'd be selling to them. And now what happens is our customers are the children and young people who are seriously ill and hospitalized, and our customers, the people where we're getting the funding from, are the donors who. Support those programs. So you break it into different groups, and we have far more stakeholder groups that you're managing in the profit for purpose sector than you do in the for profit sector. But that keeps it   Michael Hingson ** 25:14 interesting Well, so what is in in what you're doing today? And I'd be interested to to hear a contrast. But what does what does success mean to you today, and what did success mean to you when you were in the marketing world?   Louise Baxter ** 25:30 I think that that's always, you know, being the best you can be, and achieving the the metrics you need to achieve. So that's not changed, and always having really positive relationships with, you know, and partnerships. So for me, none of that's really changed. And I think that, you know, authenticity is very, very important. And so I constantly say, you know, with me, what you see, what you get, I'm the same person, no matter if you're a friend, a colleague at work, whatever, and I think that makes life much easier than if you were different people in different spaces. So I think there's a there's something that's very consistent about that. And I, I am that kind of person who doesn't take no for an answer. It's just okay. That's that's a bit trickier, but how can we get that done? So I'm always, always been solution focused, and I think that's been that's really important. And I think, you know, Obama has made comments about the type of people he wants to employ, people who get stuff done, and that's that's exactly me, and who I look to work with. So none of that has changed, but for me, it's now incredibly important. We're changing lives every day, and I think that what Starlight does in this country is we believe that that happiness in childhood matters, because happiness in your childhood is the strongest determinant of how you perform in your education, your employment, and with long term healthy life behaviors, children who are seriously ill have their ability to be happy significantly impacted. And so what we do is we sort support them with a whole range of programs. And I can talk about our theory of impact, but it builds their well being and resilience. And I know that that that you talk a lot about, you know about fear, and I think resilience is that thing that that gives you the strength to move through those things that may be frightening to you at some stage, and kids who are seriously ill are going through so much that is unfamiliar and frightening to them and painful. And so Starlight has been creating programs which are all about positive psychology and built on the tenants, if we can build, if we can distract a child by something that's positive help them to look forward to something positive. On the other side of treatment, it changes their engagement with their health care, and it changes their health outcomes for a positive and so that's incredibly important, and we were using this a decade before Martin Seligman even coined the phrase positive psychology and and now as as clinicians recognize, and they've recognized this for a long time, but are increasingly recognized the ways this this can be used to create improved health outcomes. And let's face it, you know, healthcare is one of the most innovative, fast moving sectors you can possibly work in, and clinicians have changed and improved health outcomes for every illness and disease you can possibly think of, and that's amazing. And so Starlight has been part of that improvement in healthcare, but the recognition that your mental health and well being is completely connected to your physical health and well being. And so while the doctors and nurses the clinicians look after the physical Starlight is engaging with the child within the illness and helping to lift their spirits, support their well being, resilience, giving back that joy of childhood. Because, you know, a clinician once said to me, Louise, in treating their illness, we steal their childhood. And so what we're about at Starlight is giving those kids back their chance to simply be a child and have that fun of childhood, which is where we started this conversation. You know, childhood should be about fun and having no inhibitions and not worrying, not a care in the world. And children who are seriously ill live in a very kind of adult world where they're dealing with concepts such as life and death. And that's not where any child should really be.   Michael Hingson ** 30:05 So when you're when you're dealing with a child, what, what? What do you do to bring the child back to the child, if you will, as opposed to all the the challenges that they're going through? Because certainly, when you're dealing with a disease like a cancer or whatever, it is, a very tough thing. So how do you bring that child back to being able to be a child at least for part of the time?   Louise Baxter ** 30:32 And that's, that's, you're absolutely right. It's about moments, because, and we talk about moments which matter. You can't do it for 100% of the time, but if you can lift that child and distract them and take them away from that, even if just for a moment, it changes everything. And I, I we have a whole range of programs that cater for this, in hospital and also in community. And last year, we created nearly 2 million so it was 1.9 million positive Starlight experiences for children. And that's the way we talk about it, because they're all so different. But we work in three general areas, and that is, we transform, we work in partnership with the clinicians to transform the healthcare experience, and we even build physical spaces in the hospitals, all the children's hospitals in Australia, which are manned by a character called Captain starlight. So we employ nearly 200 Captain starlights, who are all professional performers, and they work with the children, and they engage. They don't perform, but they use performance skills to engage with the child and the child's imagination, because a couple of things about children is that they are in they have incredible imaginations, and they are also easily distracted. And one of the things about most parents is they they try to work out how they keep their child focused? Well, we use the fact that children can be intensely distracted for good. So, you know, for example. So talking about that transforming the healthcare experience, some of our captain starlets will actually work in a treatment space with the clinicians, and they know how the treatment is going to unfold. Not so they could ever perform the treatment, but be so they know when to distract the child, when to keep the child very calm, etc, throughout that procedure. But let's say it's a burns dressing change that to a child. The pain of having a burns dressing change is like having your skin removed every time the dressing has changed, and what we do is we have our captain starlights there, and children don't have the psychology of pain in their mind. They will be intensely distracted, and their pain threshold then increases by up to 75% by simply distracting them, which means then they don't need to have an anesthetic for their treatment, which means that that child may not have to stay in hospital overnight because of that anesthetic and etc. So by using the power of a child's mind engaging with them, we can change that scenario. They won't feel the pain. Now, for an adult, that sounds weird, because if we were having that burn stressing changed on an arm, even if someone was distracting him, we'd be waiting for the pain, whereas a child just gets absorbed in the distraction and is not waiting for the pain. And so that's the difference. So we transform the healthcare experience, we provide opportunities for children to connect, because social isolation is one of the key issues associated with serious illness and treatment. They're pulled away immediately from their local friends and family, often into, you know, a hospital that's in the city, and that's the way our healthcare system works. The big children's hospitals are in the cities. The kids come out of regional areas and into that so they're away from everything, all their friends that their bedroom, everything that's familiar, and so that social connection is really important. That's part of what we do in our Starlight Express rooms, which are in every Children's Hospital. They also are TV stations within those hospitals and broadcast to the bedside of the child. So if the child's too sick to come into the Starlight Express room, they can be part of that and have that social connection from their bedside. So quizzes, for example, are really important for us, and we run a quiz every day, and sick children have lost that ability to compete in so many ways and have fun and have that little banter that you have with people when you are competing. Yet a quiz brings that all together. And we often have, we always have prizes, but it means a child in their bed who can't physically come into another space with another child for issues in terms of their illness and and. Um and infections and cross infections, etc, they can still be involved, and they can win the quiz, and, you know, be on television and chat with the other kids. So those things are very important. And we also promote entertainment, because entertainment is a great way of of distracting children. And so we talk about what we do. We transform the healthcare experience. We provide social connection that's so missing, and moments of entertainment. And our program sometimes deliver all three, but they're created for one specific reason, and so we're all about having fun. And for me, when I see a child come into a Starlight Express room, especially a child who's recently been diagnosed, you can see they're often in a wheelchair. They're holding an IV drip. They have their head down, their shoulders down, they have the weight of the world on their shoulders. They're looking like no child should ever look and you see this child come into our space and start to lift because a Starline Express room is a haven away from the clinical nature of the ward. They start to lift. They see the space. They see the captain starlights, and for me to observe that same child, 510, 15 minutes later, roaring with laughter, completely forgetting where they are and why. That's the power of starlight, and that's what we do through all our programs every day. And that moment lifts that child and gives them, builds their resilience and gives them the ability to go back into that next round of treatment, surgery, etc. So it is in that moment, and it changes everything.   Michael Hingson ** 36:40 How does the starlight experience differ in America and our healthcare model here as opposed to in Australia? Do you have any idea?   Louise Baxter ** 36:52 Yeah, well, we have, we man all of the spaces in our hospitals. So the hospital, when a new hospital is being built, they they they allocate a section that is the Starlight Express room space. We then build the Starlight Express room, and these are quite large spaces, and then we man it with our own paid team members and volunteers that would never happen in your healthcare system, just with legal issues and liability, etc, you'd never see that happening in in America. So that's, I think, the key, the key difference from things that we do in Australia, we also are a wish granting organization, and we are the largest wish branding organization in Australia, and we have programs called we have a program called Live Wire, which supports young people, so teenagers and up to the age of 20, and that is in hospital. So we then don't have Captain starlights. We have live wire facilitators, and then we have live wire online. We also have a virtual Star LED Express room, which we created and trial during COVID. Because obviously everything around the world and definitely in Australia, was in lockdown, and our programs were an essential service in the children's hospital, but we were restricted, and so we'd been toying with the concept of a virtual Starlight Express room for a long time, and so we used COVID as that opportunity to trial that, and we trialed it. It was very successful, and we're now rolling planet Starlight into every hospital across Australia. All people need there is a QR code. And so we put up beautiful posters, which are also games that kids can play that has a QR code, and they can go directly to Planet starlight. And planet Starlight is set up has live shows of Captain starlights during the day, but also games kids can play directions, how to do art. So if a child's seriously ill, but at home or in another hospital, they can do all of this stuff. And it's it's not that you need a full tank kit. We do it and understanding that children will be able to work with what they have that's near to them. We even have things like I spy for an emergency room space so that kids can stay distracted, no matter what part of a hospital they're in. We also now support families who are in at home palliative care, because 70% of children in this country who are in palliative care are at home. That's not necessarily end of life palliative care, but palliative care can go on for a number of years, and those families are incredibly alone and isolated, and so our Starlight moments program delivers things to uplift that family and have them know that someone's thinking of them during this time. And. Again, it is those moments which really, truly matter.   Michael Hingson ** 40:05 So, um, how did what? What do you know about how it works here, or what actually happens in America? Do you have any real notion about that? I mean, I understand all the legalities and all that, but how does it differ what? What do they do here to be able to foster that same kind of climate. Yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 40:22 they're still about happiness matters, right? Which is fantastic, and they do that with, I'm trying to think of the name now Fun, fun boxes that they have delivered into hospitals with toys, etc, for kids. In some hospitals, they are able to do a refresh of a playroom to make it a starlight space. But it's then not like ours are manned every day with team members. They have little carts that help kids transport round the hospital. So yeah. So they have a whole range of things that they can do within the limitations of the different health system. It   Michael Hingson ** 41:06 must be a real challenge to keep up the spirits of all the people who work for starlight. How do you keep a positive work environment and keep everyone moving forward and hopefully reasonably happy in what they're doing, because they they have to see a lot of challenges. Obviously, yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 41:26 we we're authentic with our commitment to positive psychology. And so getting close to 15 years ago, we started working with a group here in Australia called the positivity Institute, and we started training all of our team members. So every team member who joined Starline is trained in the tools of positive psychology, because you're absolutely right. And I use the airplane analogy, you know, if the plane's going down, you're always told that you put your you have to put your oxygen mask on yourself, because if you don't put it on yourself, you're of no use to anyone else, and POS, psychs like that, you have to care for yourself. And self care is so important, because if you are not caring for yourself, and if you are not topping topping up your own cup, then you're of no use to support and coach and help other people, and so we have positive psychology is the one authentic thing that, just you know, moves right through our organization. It's at the heart of everything we do for the children and young people. And importantly, every question we ask ourselves about every business decision is, will this improve the way we support the seriously ill children and young people, yes or no, and then what we do is we carry that through, because for us to be able to provide the support we do, and you're absolutely right, working often in very challenging situations, we need to know how we can look After ourselves. So POS site flows through the whole organization, and we are an organization that is a great place to work in Australia, there's actually, you know, a survey that's done annually, and corporates and other organizations are ranked, and we're always in the top group of performers there. So it's, it's also very critical to maintain a high performing team, because we need to be sure of able to have our team bring their best self to Starlight every day. And that's what post psych does for us. How does   Michael Hingson ** 43:37 that work? What? What do you do? I mean, you, you obviously have people who go into situations and they get hit with so many sad sorts of things, but obviously you're able to bring them out of that. How do you do that? Well,   Louise Baxter ** 43:52 as I said, Everybody's trained up front and recognizes the tools or has the toolkit for prossite, but we don't just leave it there. So the people who are working in hospitals have daily debriefs. They have a support crew from an employee assistance organizations who work with them. That's the same person who works with those teams. So they then have weekly debriefs, monthly, quarterly. So we're onto it. It's, it's, it's a, May, it's a, it's a, it's very strategic in the way we support them, and it's very considered. And so that support is there for people on a daily basis. So   Michael Hingson ** 44:35 you, you, I'm just thinking of a question I'm going to ask, you're doing a lot with children and all that, which I think is really great. Is there any chance that this kind of approach could also work for older people, adults and so on?   Louise Baxter ** 44:57 Absolutely, and it. It would also work. I mean, we're working with seriously ill, right, and hospitalized children, but it would also work with group, other groups of vulnerable children. So, you know, happiness and positive psychology is something that works for everyone, quite frankly. And so one of the things that's a side benefit of starlight being in a hospital is it lifts the morale of the whole hospital team. So the hospital, the hospital team, is happier. Because if you think of working in a children's hospital, if Starlight was not there, it can be a pretty dour place, and the challenges are every day, but with starlight, they're lifting the spirits, having fun, being silly. It changes everything for the clinicians I know, I've been at the door of a lift, an elevator, as you would say, and and before the lift, the doors open. A doctor who's been waiting there, notices that two captains walk up to hop in the elevator and and the doctor will say, I'm taking the stairs. I never know what those guys make me do between floors, but laughing. So you know, our captain starlights are about that fun. And the thing about Captain Starlight is they come from Planet starlight. So there's a mythology around them, and they fly to planet earth every day in an invisible rocket ship that lands on the roof of the Children's Hospital. And the great thing about this is that the children are then in the gun seat in because they understand everything about Planet Earth, and the captains don't. So the planet the captains will do silly things like pick up a pen and use it like a telephone and go, Hello, you know. And the children will go, No, not that. So it's that merge of slapstick and kind of vaudeville and the child engaging with the child. But they will, can they? Our captain? Starlets will do that silliness with doctors and nurses too, which is also hilarious. And that's the comment from the captain from the doctor. So Right? It keeps the morale of the entire hospital, because, you know, it changes from having children who are crying and distressed and frightened to children who are roaring with laughter, um, despite the fact that they're seriously ill, that's great.   Michael Hingson ** 47:25 How can we bring that to adult patients?   Louise Baxter ** 47:29 Well, do you know what I've been working or I've been walking with our captain starlights as they've had to move through an adult part. You know, some of our hospitals are adults and children's and then the youth are on the other side. As we've walked through, an elderly person stopped and said, Hey, captain, could you sing me a song? And so they had their ukulele there, and they launched into, you are my son. I think he might have requested, You are my sunshine. And you can see immediately the change in the person. So it, it is something that definitely works, but at the moment, we don't have the funding to meet all of the need that we have for children and young people. So while it's, you know, potentially a great concept, it's, it's not something that we can move into in the the immediate future. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 48:24 and you can only do what you can do, but it would certainly, it would seem to me be exciting if people would bring more of those programs to adults too, because adults could could use it. And I'm sure you know that I'm not saying anything magical at all, but I would think there are ways to bring a lot of this to adults that would help lift their spirits. I know when my wife was in the hospital, it was very boring for her. Now she was in a wheelchair, so she was in a chair her whole life. So she had other challenges being in the hospital when she needed to use a restroom or have help with a bedpan, sometimes it took a while and so on. So just a lot of things that could have been better for her, that I think would have made her experience better. And I realized that she was probably, in a sense, a harder case than some, but still, it would just be so nice if we could do more to help all of the different kinds of patients in hospitals and make it a better experience for them.   Louise Baxter ** 49:23 Yeah, that's that's what we're doing about, about changing that healthcare experience,   Michael Hingson ** 49:29 yeah. What about the whole concept of diversity, equity and inclusion and so on? How do you deal with a diverse population? So for example, in all the things that you're talking about, what if you discover that one of the children that you're dealing with is blind in the hospital? How do you adapt so that they get as included as other people in the things that you're doing? Yep,   Louise Baxter ** 49:53 we have. All of our team are trained in dealing with. Children who are blind, who are deaf. We actually recently had training, and we had our captain starlights. They were all blindfolded, and they were going through sensory experiments to teach them how they can better use sound and other things to work with children. So So our team is trained across all of those different areas, because you're right every day, we do deal with children who are deaf, who are blind, who are in wheelchairs, who are non verbal, who are on the autism spectrum, but all of those things. So we have to have teams trained. Our team is trained to understand how they can deliver an exceptional experience to those children, as well as children who don't have those differences. So   Michael Hingson ** 50:56 clearly you have a we got to get it done. Got a really positive attitude to get things done. Where did you learn that attitude? Because that's a very positive thing that I think more companies and more people in general ought to learn. The whole concept of, we're going to get it done no matter what it you know, I don't want to say no matter what it takes, but we're going to get it done, and we're very positive about that. Yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 51:25 I'm not sure that I learned it, but I think that there are people in life who you see that way. I always, I always jokingly call it waiters with their heads up, because, you know, you see when you're in a restaurant often, there's those people who walk past your table and don't pick up the dirty plates, who aren't looking for things to do. And then there are those other ones who you can see are going from table to table, doing stuff everywhere. And I always say they're the people I want to employ, the waiters with their heads up. So I think it's an attitude you have in life. And you can either kind of say, well, that's a challenge, and that's difficult, but how can I get that done? Or you can say, well, that's difficult. I just won't do that anymore. And and, you know, we need people who want to get stuff done and who always have a pot and having a positive attitude just makes you feel so much better than dwelling in the negative. And you know, I hate people who are always who those negative Nellies or nets or whoever they are, and they bring you down. So positivity is something that I think helps all of us every day. And why wouldn't you choose to be positive? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 52:37 and it is a choice. And the reality is that no matter what goes on, I think we can choose to be positive. One of the things that I've been saying for many years, that I learned because of the World Trade Center, basically, is don't worry about what you can control. Focus on what you can let the rest take care of itself. We're so worried about every little old thing in the world that we don't tend to be positive about anything, and that doesn't help any of us. No,   Louise Baxter ** 53:07 I think that being positive is so incredibly important. It makes you feel better and happier, makes everybody around you feel better and happier. So why wouldn't you do it? And I actually use this at Starlight too, because sometimes team members like you reach a point in your in your work life, and I did. I left Starlight because I needed a new challenge, and Starlight didn't have that challenge for me. So why hang around and become that disgruntled person in the corner who's just trying to pull everybody else into their negative little corner and finds fault with everything the organization does. Why would you stay? You know, and if you leave in that instance, you go to somewhere where you can contribute, and you feel great. You're doing a great job. The organization gets someone into your role who really wants to be there, and all that negativity stops. So in positive psychology, the end game is flourishing. And so I jokingly say at my team all the time, if you don't want to be here anymore, if you're not feeling challenged, please go flourish somewhere else. Don't stay here and become that negative person who tries to bring everyone into their negative corner. It's just not good for you or anybody else. So, yeah. So, so the Go flourish somewhere else is a bit of a joke that people say they're going to have printed on my coffee mug at some stage.   Michael Hingson ** 54:30 Well, you went away, but you also came back. That's   Louise Baxter ** 54:34 right, that's right. And so I went away because I needed a new challenge at that stage. And that challenge, potentially, was the CEO role that it wasn't available then. So I went and I did something else that I loved. And then, you know, the board came back to me some time later and said, Would you come back as CEO now? And I said, Yes. So there you go. And then I'd had a different experience, which actually helped. Me to be a better CEO. So as you say, if you're always moving forward, if you don't get hung up about things, and if you choose positivity, that really can set you up for a much better life. What   Michael Hingson ** 55:13 are some of the challenges that Starlight is facing in Australia today?   Louise Baxter ** 55:19 I think that for us it's a nice challenge, because as clinicians recognize the power of positive psychology and the power of the mind in improving health outcomes, they're very creative, and they're coming up with more and more ideas as to how star lack could be used, but we can only deliver if we increase our funding. And obviously, I think globally, communities are under pressure financially, and so those things kind of don't work together. And that's that's a challenge for us. I think we live in a world of increasing complexity and compliance and and we need to within that, ensure we meet the requirements and the criteria, but we do it in the simplest possible way, because simplicity is better for your mental health. It's more effective and efficient. And so sometimes within the the complexity of compliance, people are on making things even more bureaucratic than they need to. So really keeping things simple, I think, is is important against the backdrop of what's happening. And the exciting thing is we work in the sector of health care. And health care is always changing, always improving and and that's a great thing to be part of. What   Michael Hingson ** 56:48 do you think are well, what would you tell somebody from, let's say, one of your former jobs in marketing and so on, what kind of advice would you give them based on what you now know as being the CEO of starlight, for, my gosh, what? For 15 years, 14 almost? Well, 15 years, yes, almost 16 years. Yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 57:10 I think that. I think people have to be true to themselves. You know, you have to be authentic. Choose positivity is something that I would always give advice around, because, as you said, it is a choice, and I fail to understand why everyone, anyone would choose the negative, yeah, side of that equation and really focus on getting stuff done. So never sit back and be lazy. Always be working to be that, that person who thinks about themselves others and cares and gets it done,   Michael Hingson ** 57:55 yeah, we we spend way too much time, because I think we're taught so much to be negative when we don't get taught nearly as much about being as positive as we can be. I know that my parents were always encouraging to me and my brother. I'm not sure my brother always got it quite as much as I did in terms of understanding it, but we were, we were taught that positivity was a choice. We were taught that being innovative and moving forward was a choice. And we also were encouraged to make that the choice that we made too, which is part of the issue, yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 58:37 excellent. And the other thing is, I would say, Do not be a perfectionist. I'm an anti perfectionist. Yeah, I agree. It gets you nowhere. Doesn't exist. And you know, especially in this day, where we can move, and we're very agile, kind of, I say 70% out, because if you say 70% and out, it means people will probably go to 80 or 90% but those people who, if anyone in a in an interview, proudly tells me they're perfectionist, they're gone because all they do is drive themselves and everyone around them crazy. So I don't want to have them in the organization. It   Michael Hingson ** 59:17 seems to me that the thing to say is that I will always do the best that I can do, and I will always give at least 100%   Louise Baxter ** 59:25 Absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 59:28 Yeah, perfection is something I don't think most of us understand anyway, but if we give it our best, probably we'll achieve perfection, in a sense,   Louise Baxter ** 59:37 yeah, and get it done and get it out, get it happening, right? Because the thing is, if it's not, if it's, you know, if it's not, if it's not perfect, you get it out and you get to use it, and you learn so much more. So you got actually a better shot at getting it towards it. You can tweak it after,   Michael Hingson ** 59:55 yeah, well, well, market, well. And what you do. Do is you do the best that you can do, but you're if you're wise and good leaders. Know this. You also work with a team, and sometimes somebody else on the team can take the lead and enhance what you're doing, which is always a good thing.   Louise Baxter ** 1:00:15 Absolutely, you've got to have way smarter people all around you? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:22 I don't think there's anything wrong with having smarter people around you. Your your smarts is in bringing the team together.   Louise Baxter ** 1:00:29 Yes, that's right. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:33 what can you think other regions and countries learn from the challenges that you're facing?   Louise Baxter ** 1:00:40 I think we have, I think the world is so consistent in this day and age more than it's kind of ever been. You know, when you travel, you know, you seek out those places where we're different. Of course, we're different, but there's a lot more that's the same in this day and age than there ever has been and, and, you know, in some instances, I think that's quite sad, yeah, but there's much more consistency. So I think that there's, and there's always something that we can learn from each other, always. And that's what I look for. I'm excited by up learning things and you know, and and something that doesn't go according to plan is fabulous, because you learn so much more from that than something that just smoothly goes along and does everything you thought it would do.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:35 Nothing wrong with learning from things that don't go well. I don't like the term failure and even mistakes, I'm not a great fan of but I think that what happens is that things don't always go as we plan. And the real question is, what do we learn from it? Absolutely which is, which is so cool? Well, Louise, this has been absolutely fun to be able to spend all this time with you. Now it's 10 in the morning where you are, so we should let you go do other things and get something done today. But I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you who are listening for being a part of our podcast today. I'd love to hear your thoughts about what Louise had to say, and I hope that you will communicate with her. And that's a good point. Louise, how can people reach out to you if they'd like to talk with you and maybe learn more from you, and what you have to say, I'm   Louise Baxter ** 1:02:27 on LinkedIn. So if, if those listening are on LinkedIn, you can find me. Louise Baxter, Starlight, Children's Foundation, Australia and or you can go to starlight.org.au, we if you're looking for us, our website, and you'll find me through that as well. Cool.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:47 Well, I hope people will reach out. And if you'd like to reach out to me, and I hope you will, you may email me at Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, and you can also, of course, go to our podcast page, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, you can listen to all of our podcasts there. You can reach out to me. There lots of things you can do on the web. It's an amazing thing to be able to do things on the web. I also would really appreciate it if when you are thinking about us, if you'll give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to us or watching us, we really appreciate your ratings and your comments. So please do that. If you know of anyone who you think might be a good guest, and Louise, you as well. If you can think of anybody else who we ought to have on unstoppable mindset, would definitely appreciate you introducing us. We're always looking to have more people to come on and tell their stories and talk about what they do. That's the best way to learn, is learning by listening to other people and them telling their stories. So hopefully you'll all do that and again, Louise, I want to thank you for being here.

Our guest this time, Kane Brolin, will quickly and gladly tell you that as a blind person born in Iowa in 1965 he was mightily blessed to be born in that state as it had the best programs for blind people in the nation. Kane was born prematurely and, because of being given too much oxygen he became blind due to a condition known as retinopathy O. Prematurity. In fact I am blind due to the same circumstance. As it turns out, Kane and I share a great many life experiences especially because of the attitudes of our parents who all thought we could do whatever we put our minds to doing. Kane attended public school and then went to Iowa State University. He wanted to be a DJ and had a bit of an opportunity to live his dream. However, jobs were scarce and eventually he decided to go back to school at Northwestern University in Illinois. He formed his own financial and investment company which has been in business since 2002. He is a certified financial planner and has earned the Chartered Special Needs Consultant® designation.   We talk quite a bit about financial matters and he gives some sage advice about what people may realize are good investment ideas. He talks about investing in the stock market and urges investing for the long term. I leave it to him to discuss this in more depth.   Kane is quite committed to “pay it forward” insofar as dealing with blind people is concerned. He is currently the president of the National Federation of the Blind of Indiana. He also serves as a member of the Board of Directors for Penny Forward, Inc., a not-for-profit founded and run by blind people which strives to build a diverse and aspirationally-focused community of blind people who help one another achieve financial fitness, gainful employment, and overall fulfilment in life.   I find Kane quite inspirational and I hope you will do so as well. He has much to offer and he provided many good life lessons not only about financial matters, but also about blindness and blind people.       About the Guest:   Born in 1965, Kane Brolin spent his formative years in the state of Iowa and later went on to earn a Master's degree from the JL Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois, which is near Chicago.  Since the year 2002, he has owned and operated a financial planning and investment management business based in Mishawaka, Indiana, located not far from The University of Notre Dame.  Over the years, he has become a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ Professional and has earned the Chartered Special Needs Consultant® designation.  When doing business with his clients, securities and Advisory Services are offered through Commonwealth Financial Network, a Registered Investment Advisor which is a Member of FINRA and SIPC,.   Having been totally blind for all his life, Kane feels indebted to many people who selflessly gave of their time, talent, and resources to help him acquire the education, skills, and confidence that enable him to lead a busy and productive life in service to others.  Many of those who made the biggest impact when Kane was growing up, also happened to be members of the National Federation of the Blind.  So after getting established on his current career path, he increasingly felt the impulse to give back to the organized blind movement which had served his needs from an early age.   Kane co-founded the Michiana Chapter in the National Federation of the Blind in 2012 and subsequently was elected to serve a two-year term as president of the Indiana State Affiliate of the NFB in October, 2022.  He is thankful for the early introduction of Braille, as well as for the consistent drumbeat from parents, peers, and professors which set and reinforced continuously high expectations.     In addition to his work with the NFB, Kane serves as a member of the Board of Directors for Penny Forward, Inc., a not-for-profit founded and run by blind people which strives to build a diverse and aspirationally-focused community of blind people who help one another achieve financial fitness, gainful employment, and overall fulfilment in life.   Kane lives in Mishawaka with Danika, his wife of 27 years, and their four children.  Kane and Danika were active foster parents for 11 years.  The Brolin family have been committed to numerous civic organizations; they and their family are active in their place of worship.  Giving back to the world is a continuously high priority.  They endeavor to teach their children by example, and they impart to them the wisdom of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.: “You can all be great, because you can all serve.”   Ways to connect with Rob:   BrolinWealth.com LinkedIn public profile nfb-in.org pennyforward.com   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi, everyone. I am your host, Michael Hingson, or you can call me Mike. It's okay. And this is unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity in the unexpected. Meet today. We're going to do a little bit of all. We're inclusive because my guest Kane Brolin, or if you're from Sweden, it's Brolin, and it's pronounced Brolin, not Brolin, but Kane bralin, or broline, is in Indiana, and Kane also happens to be blind, and has been blind his entire life. We'll get into that. He is very much involved in investing and dealing with money matters that I'm interested to get a chance to really chat about it's always fun to talk to people about how they're helping people with finances and money and getting insights. And I'm sure that he has some to to offer. So we'll get to that. Kane also happens to be the president of the National Federation of the Blind of Indiana, and so that keeps him busy, so he deals with money, and he's a politician to boot. So what else can you ask for? I pick on Kane by doing that, but nevertheless, Kane, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Thank   Kane Brolin ** 02:34 you. And there are there are times when the politics and the money issues can be a dream. There are other times it can be an absolute nightmare, either one, either one or both and and the thing that ties those together in common ground is that I walk in in the morning, and sometimes they have no idea what I'm about to walk into. So it does make for an adventure. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:57 the Fed has lowered interest rates. What do you think about that?   Kane Brolin ** 03:01 Well, there is some ramification for what happens in the consumer marketplace. The main thing that I've been hearing today is that even with those lowering of short term interest rates, you're seeing some long term interest rates go down the mortgage rates, especially, and those two are not necessarily always related. You don't always see the long term interest rates that the market determines through supply and demand. They don't always go in sync with the short term baseline rate that the Federal Reserve banking system sets, but in this particular case, they are, and what I've been reading this morning is that that may be at least good news in the short run for consumers, because they'll be paying Lower interest for new mortgages and also perhaps lower credit card rates or credit card payments. Of course, the downside is that if one invests and is lending money instead of borrowing it, that means sometimes lower rates of income that you can get from things like a certificate of deposit or an annuity. So there's always two sides of the same coin, and then it depends on which side you happen to be looking at. At the moment, right now, the market seems to like this convergence of interest rate activities, and the stock market has generally been up today. So by the time people hear this, that won't matter because it's a whole different day, but, but right now, the early returns coming in are pretty good for the the common human being out there trying to just manage their money.   Michael Hingson ** 04:54 Well, that's not really surprising, in a sense, because rates have been high for a while. Yeah, and things have been tough. So it's not surprising that people have made, and I would put it this way, to a degree, the marketing decision to respond favorably to the rates going down, and I know there's been a lot of pressure for the thread to lower its rate, and so they did. And I think that a lot of different entities kind of had to respond in a reasonably positive way, because they kept saying that it's time that the rates go down. So they had to respond. So we'll see how it it all goes. I   Kane Brolin ** 05:33 think, you know, and there's an issue I think that's salient to people with disabilities, blind people, included, if it's less expensive for the consumer to borrow money, it should follow that in the coming weeks, it should be less expensive for businesses to borrow money if they need some, and they may be more inclined to open up more jobs to people or to not shrink the jobs or The hiring that they have done by laying people off so and that's what I was just about. No one is a recession, and so it may mean that there are openings, there's room in the job market for more of us, because the thing I'm most passionate about in this whole game of helping blind people is getting us access to money and getting us access to gainful permanent work.   Michael Hingson ** 06:24 And that's what I was actually going to going to talk about, or not talk about a long time, but, but mention was that the real test will be how it affects the job market and the unemployment rate and so on. And I hope that that that will go down. I know it's been sort of ticking up a little bit, although in reality, of course, for persons with disabilities, the unemployment rate is a whole lot higher than around 4% so it'll be interesting to see how all that goes all the way around. But even just the national unemployment rate, I would hope that if that has been an excuse because the rates have been high, that now we'll see that start to drop, and, you know, so we'll see. But I think it's a it's going to be one of those waiting games to see how the world responds. Of course, we have a whole political thing going on with the election and I'm sure that some people on the political side like the the drop better than people on the other side do, but again, we'll see how it all goes. So it's it makes life fun. Well, tell me a little bit about you, if you would, sort of maybe the early cane growing up and all that sort of stuff. You were born, according to your bio, back in 1965 so I was 15 at the time, so I remember the year. So you've, you've been around a little while, though, however, so tell us a little bit about the early cane.   Kane Brolin ** 07:54 Yeah, I don't remember too many years, or any years, really, prior to about maybe 1971 or 72 with any degree of real clarity. You know, I would say that my early years were a mixed bag, but in the main they were good, of course, being immediately confronted with rLf, or retinopathy of prematurity, as they call it these days, and being blind from the very beginning, most people would probably out there consider it a tragedy. But if I if I knew that it was my fate to be a blind person, which I suppose it is, then I won the lottery as being a blind person, I think. And that might be a controversial statement, but the truth is that there is no place in the United States, and probably no place in the world that would have been better for me to grow up in in the late 1960s and 1970s than in Iowa, because now there was, there was no other blindness in my family. It's not hereditary. My parents had no idea how to deal with it in the very beginning.   Michael Hingson ** 09:12 Were you born prematurely? I was, yeah, which is why I weigh you have that   Kane Brolin ** 09:16 something like two pounds, 10 ounces at birth. So there is a part of me that realizes that I am very fortunate to be alive, and I'm very fortunate that my brain has functioned pretty well for most of my life. You can't always count on that either, you know, and when you get when you get older, my my father was a very bright person, and yet he lived during the last 10 years of his life, he struggled with dementia and some other problems so but I can say that I've had a good run so far, and you know what they what they didn't know. At least my parents and others in my family knew what they didn't know. And I. But when you don't know what you don't know, you flounder and and settle for almost anything, including fear. But when you know what you don't know, then you understand you need to research things. And I happened to be in a state that had been graced by the presence of Dr Kenneth Jernigan, principally. And of course, other people that I had no idea who they were at that time. You know, folks like James gaschell and James on VIG right, and and others. I think Joanne Wilson came out of that mix. I didn't know her either, but I've read about all these people in the past, but, but first and foremost, my parents found out that Dr Jernigan was number one, very brilliant. Number two did not settle for low expectations. And number three had the advantage of being both the head of the Iowa Commission for the Blind, which was a state sanctioned Agency, and the National Federation of the Blind, which is, or, you know, has been for most of the last 84 years, the leading advocacy organization and civil rights organization of the Blind in in the United States. Now, I'm not here to make a political point about that, but in Iowa, they were definitely more well known than anyone was, and because he could pull strings which influence things like educational budgets, and he also had very much a civil rights mindset and an aggressive mindset of going forward and breaking down barriers, this is a rare combo platter of traits and possibilities that I very much benefited from. And when I say that, I mean that from the very beginning, at five or six years old, I had Braille. I didn't have Braille in the beginning, but, but my parents did and and my dad actually knew enough about it to construct a set of blocks with print lettering on one side, Braille on the other side. And so not only did I have a really good teacher in my first couple of years of public school education named Doris Willoughby, some may be familiar with her. I know Doris will rip she has passed on in the past couple years, but she made a great impact in in my life, and a very deep impact in others lives too. But because of her influence and like minded people, I had access to books. I had access to mostly mainstreamed integrated education, where I was in the classroom with other sighted students, except for certain parts of certain days, you know, I had access to a great big wall mounted tactile map that was like a puzzle. And I understand Dr Jernigan designed that one too, where I could actually feel and take apart the states of the Union. And so I could tell where Oklahoma was, where Massachusetts was, where Indiana is. I could tell the shapes of the various states. I thought it was kind of curious that California, where you are from, Michael, is shaped very much like a banana, or at least that's what occurred to me at that time. I had recorded books. I had talking books. And you know, while there are things I did not get out of a mainstream public education that I kind of wish I had gotten out of it, from a social standpoint, from an athletic standpoint, the academics were on point, and I had access to resources, and I kind of just was living in a in a dream world, in a way, because even through my college days, I thought, Well, gee, it's great that we have all this now. Why is there all this blind civil rights stuff going on now? Because this was solved from the beginning of my childhood. Little did I realize that that is not the case in most other parts of the country or the world, but I got what I needed to at least have a shot on goal at success, and I'm very grateful for that, and it's one of the reasons that I have chosen to dedicate a portion of my life, during my prime working years, even to the National Federation of the Blind, because I want to pay this forward and help out some people that may not have had all the advantages that I had, even, even in the bygone days that I was growing up,   Michael Hingson ** 14:23 sure? So tell me, because I went through some of the same experiences you did in terms of being born premature and becoming blind due to rLf, which stands for retro enteral fibroplasia. And if people want to know how to spell that, they can go by thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog, and the triumph of trust at ground zero. And you can learn how to spell it there, because I don't remember how to spell it. We put it in the book, but that's what I remember. But so when you be when it was discovered that you were blind, how did your parents handle that? What did they say? Right? What did the doctors say to them? Because my experience was and, you know, of course, I didn't know it at the time, but my parents told me later that the doctor said, send him off to a home because he could never amount to anything, because no blind child could ever contribute to society. What was, if, from your understanding from your parents, what was what happened to you? If any   Kane Brolin ** 15:21 doctor ever said that to them? They never told me about it. What I what I do know is that there is an eye doctor that was a part of their lives, who I saw a couple of times, probably in my childhood, who was a a female optometrist or maybe an ophthalmologist in the area, and they really had a lot of respect for her. I never felt marginalized or dismissed. Yeah, as a part of my childhood, part of it is that I don't think my parents would have tolerated that, and my   Michael Hingson ** 15:55 parents didn't, either my parents and my parents didn't either they said, No, you're wrong. He can grow up to do whatever he wants, and we're going we're going to give him that opportunity. And they brought me up that way, which is, of course, part of what led to my psyche being what it is. And I too, believe in paying it forward and doing work to try to educate people about blindness and so on, and supporting and and I've been involved with the National Federation of the Blind since 1972 so it's been a while. Yeah, I would say,   Kane Brolin ** 16:27 I know I remember. I have a very, very fuzzy memory of being four, maybe five years old, and I know that they considered putting me into the Iowa Braille and sight saving School, which was a school for the blind in Iowa no longer exists, by the way, but they did consider it and decided against it. I don't think they wanted me to just go off to boarding school I was five. I know that that does work for some people, and I know that in later years, I've read that in some cases, even Dr Jernigan believed that schools for the blind were better, especially in places where there wasn't a truly sincere effort by public school systems to integrate and set high expectations for blind students. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 17:13 of course, here in California, for example, in the 50s and so on, as the California School for the Blind we had and and earlier, Dr Newell Perry, among others, who was a blind mathematician. Of course, Dr tembrech was was out here, and there were values and reasons why the schools could make a difference. My parents were pushed really hard by my elementary school principal to send me off to that school, and I actually remember hearing shouting matches between them, because parents said ah and and I didn't go to the school. I don't know what it was like by the time we moved out here and we were putting me in kindergarten, first and second grade. So like in 5657 I'm not sure what the school was like, but my parents didn't want me to not have a real home environment. So, you know,   Kane Brolin ** 18:12 yeah, and so, you know, I remember my childhood is, well, it wasn't like everybody else's childhood. One of the the issues happened to be that my the neighborhood that my family lived in, did not have a lot of kids in it that were my age for most of the time I was there, the schools in the early to mid 70s at least that admitted blind students in the town that I grew up in, which was Cedar Rapids, Iowa, there was only one set of schools on the opposite side of town where they were sending blind kids for those resources. Now that later changed and the decision was made. I guess I made the decision to stay out there. So one of the differences was that I was bussed from the southeast side of town to the southwest side of town. So there were kids I got to know through school, but I didn't have any kind of social life with most of them, with a couple different exceptions, through my childhood. So it was a lot of academics, it wasn't a lot of play time, right? That certainly informed how I grew up, and it's made me a little bit struggle to understand and and be a really sensitive, playful, patient type parent, because my my kids and I'll, we'll go there when we get there, but my, my children, I have four, they're all still in home right now, are very normal kind of rambunctious kids that enjoy and struggle with the same things that any other kids do. They are all sighted, but, but my parents were. Was pretty strict. They set high expectations, but some of that was high expectations for behavior as well. So I really wasn't ramming around and causing trouble and getting into mischief and, you know, getting on my bike and riding for miles outside the way kids did in the 70s. So there there were limitations in my childhood, but, but, you know, my parents, too, expected me to utilize and to have the resources that would lead me to be anything I wanted to be. And I honestly think that if I had said, I want to be the President of the United States, they would not have ruled it out. Now, the only thing I've really been president of is several different civic organizations and the Indiana branch of the NFB. You know, that's something not everyone does. I've interviewed a governor before when I was a journalism student. That was fun, and I've met congress people, but they did not set the limitations. You know, sometimes maybe I did, but but they didn't. And so I'm really grateful for that, that as long as I knew what I wanted, they made sure that I had the tools and access to whatever training they knew about that could help me to   Michael Hingson ** 21:18 get there. So you you went through school. And I think our our younger lives were fairly similar, because I also, when I went into fourth grade, and we finally had a resource teacher in the area, I was bused to the other side of town for that. And all of that kind of came together when I started high school, because everyone in Palmdale went to the same high school, so anyone I knew prior to going across town, I got to know again, and still knew as as friends growing up, but we all went to high school together. But you know, I hear exactly what you're saying, and my parents did not impose limitations either, and I'm very blessed for that. But you went through school and then you went to college. Tell me about college.   Kane Brolin ** 22:19 It was a fun experience. Glad that I went through it. I attended Iowa State University for my bachelor's degree. I know that you've never, ever heard this before, but I really dreamed about being a radio personality. And I say that sarcastically. It's what I wanted to be, because I had a cousin that was in the business. But of course, since then, as I've gotten more into blind blindness culture and met many other people that I never knew growing up, I know that that the media and especially radio as a gift, is really fascinating to many of us, and a lot of us have had rotations in different parts of that, especially with the advent of the internet, but this was back during the 70s and 80s, and what I wanted to be at first was a DJ. Used to pretend to be one at home all the time and then, but I also knew where the library was, and I developed a great love of books and information and data. To some degree, I wasn't really a math guy, more of a word guy, but I then developed a deep interest in journalism and investigation and research, and so by the middle to late 80s, what I wanted to be was, let's just call it the next Peter Jennings, if one can remember who that is, right. And I'm sure that there are probably, you know, facsimiles of him today,   Michael Hingson ** 23:50 but it's hard to be a facsimile of Peter Jennings. But yeah, he really is,   Kane Brolin ** 23:55 and that he was great and but you know the disadvantage, the advantage and the disadvantage of going to Iowa State University. I Why did I go there? Because any of my few relatives that had gone to college, including my dad, had had gone there. My dad was very loyal to his alma mater, and he told both myself and my sister, who is a very different person and not blind at all. If it was good enough for me, it's good enough for you, and if you want me to pay for it, here's where you're going to go. Now, Iowa State is mostly an engineering and agricultural school. It's a land grant institution. And I know that land grant institutions are a little controversial in today's climate where there is more of an emphasis on diversity, equity, inclusion and making up for some past societal wrongs, but these are deeply respected institutions that mainly turned out people that ended up well, doing things like building. Bridges and being mechanical engineers and developing new seed corn hybrids and things of this nature. It did have a telecommunicative arts program, and I was in it, but there were very few of us in it, and I did get a chance to get my hands on the equipment. I was a broadcaster, first on a student radio station at Iowa State called K usr. Then I actually did work for pay, sort of for a number of years for w, O I am and FM, which were flagship stations of what we would now call the the NPR network. You know, these were around since the 20s, and I actually did work for them. I was on air a little bit. I ran the control board a lot, and I worked for those two stations on a part time basis, probably about a three quarter time basis, for several years after leaving college, and it was really a student job, but I had trouble finding any other more meaningful work in the industry. What I gradually came to find out is that I loved radio, but radio really didn't love me, and I wasn't really thinking strategically. At that time, I graduated in 1988 it is that very same year that a little known figure from Kansas City named Rush Limbaugh hit the American airwaves like a ton of bricks. And because of him and some other people like him, all of a sudden, local stations realized that they could drop their news and information programming, stop hiring so many people, and because Mr. Limbaugh was as popular as he was, they could basically run a lot of satellite based programming, have somebody sort of halfway monitor the board and hire somebody else to program computer systems that would put automated commercial breaks on and things like this, and they wouldn't really have to produce local content. We also saw the elimination of the equal time standard and the Fairness Doctrine, which required local stations to put on a variety of viewpoints and air programming every week that was in the public interest, that didn't necessarily have commercial value. And so the things I wanted to do became a lot harder to do, because by the time I was ready to get hired to do them, not a lot of radio stations were hiring people to do it, even in the even in the television world, and so strategically, I was buying into a sinking market, and That wasn't a great place to be at that time. And so with some reluctance, after a lot of fruitless job searching, I chose another path, not necessarily knowing where that path would lead. And so the last time I ever got paid to run a shift for a radio station was in late June of 1993 I've been a guest on a couple of different shows and some podcasts like this one. I greatly enjoy it. I've even thought about doing some internet broadcasting. I don't have the time, really to do that now, but, but, and I miss it, but I have found out there are ways of diverting the skill sets I have to another path.   Michael Hingson ** 28:25 And what path did you choose?   Kane Brolin ** 28:28 Initially, the path I chose was graduate school. I was fortunate enough to have gotten good enough grades that I was able to get approved by a number of different business schools. You know, the first path I really wanted to do is be a Foreign Service Officer for the diplomatic corps. I applied for the US Department of State. And I had some hopes in doing that, because around 1990 a gentleman named Rami Rabbi. You may know him, I do did became the first blind person ever to be a Foreign Service Officer. Now, he had advantages. He had traveled the world. I had traveled to Mexico and Costa Rica, and I spoke Spanish, and I was pretty fluent, but he was a little bit more qualified in different ways that they were looking for. So I wanted some international experience. I applied for the Peace Corps, and I had no real shot at that. What they were looking for was something very different from what I was then. But I did apply to the Foreign Service, and I made it almost all the way down the hiring process. I made the final 3% cut among the class they were looking at in 1990 and 91 I went to Virginia to, I think Alexandria and I sat for the last round of interviews and simulations that they did. Unfortunately, I was in the top 3% and they wanted the top 1% so I had a really fun few days out there at the government's expense. But I also found that I was not going to be hired to be the second blind. Foreign Service officer. I later found out that Mr. Robbie had to actually file a lawsuit and win that lawsuit to get his opportunity. So I know that the system were not exactly bought in to blame people doing this on a regular basis. I know there's others that have gotten there since that, and I've met one of them, but but that that wasn't for me, but they also said what I really needed was more management experience. I'd never done anything in management, so I decided to go to management school or business school as graduate school. I got accepted by a few different places. I chose Northwestern University in Chicago. My sister had gone through that program. I guess that's maybe one of the reasons I selected that one. I could have gone to a couple of others that also had accepted me, and sometimes I wonder what would have happened had I done that. But I did spend two years in Chicago land met some of the most impressive people that I've ever met in my life. Figured out train systems and pace bus systems, and went all over the place and had friends in the city, not just in the school. I made the most of that time, and that's what I did from 1993 to 1995 unfortunately, I found out you can get a an MBA or a master of management, but they still, still weren't hiring a lot of blind people out there. And so while my associates were getting jobs at McKinsey and Company, and Booz Allen Hamilton, as it was known at that time, and they were working for Bank of America, doing all kinds of interesting things and and also brand management companies like disco and Kellogg and all that. I got all of one job offer coming out of one of the top 5b schools in the country, and I took that job offer, which led me to Midland, Michigan, where I knew nobody at that time, but I spent about three and a half years doing various types of business research for the Dow Chemical Company, and that did not last as a career, but I got a chance to make the first real money I had ever earned. At that time through another connection that wasn't related to Dow, I happened to meet the woman that I eventually married and am with now, and have had four kids with, and so that was a whole different kettle of fish. But at the end of 98 I was downsized, along with several others in my department, and we decided at that time that entrepreneurship was probably not a bad way to go, or, you know, something that wasn't just strictly speaking corporate. In 2000 I landed in the South Bend, Indiana area, which is where she is from. I had never lived here before. This is where I am now. And while struggling to find a place here, I realized that I could get hired on as what is called a financial advisor. I had no idea what that was. Well, you know, with a business degree, I could probably be a credible hire as a financial advisor. Little did I know that that involved tele sales. In the very beginning, never thought I was a salesperson either. Since then, I have found out that I have more selling ability than I had ever thought that I might and that that is an honorable profession if you're convincing people to do what is right for themselves. And so I've found that over the years, being what I am enables me to, well, in a way, keep my own hours. We've chosen the small business, sort of independent contracting route, rather than the employee channel, working for a bank or for somebody else's brokerage. I get to be a researcher, I get to be a public speaker now and then, and I get to help people problem solve, which is something I would not have had a chance to do on the radio. And when someone comes up to you, as a few people have and have, said, you know, thank you for making it possible for me to retire and to do what I want to do, and to spend time with grandkids and to live where I want to live. You know, that's a that's definitely a hit. That's a great feeling to have someone say, Thank you for helping me to do and to be what I didn't know I could do or be. So   Michael Hingson ** 34:38 investing isn't what you had originally planned to do with your life. So I can't say that it was necessarily a lifelong goal from the beginning, but you evolved into it, and it seems to be going pretty well for you.   Kane Brolin ** 34:51 Well, yeah, I think it has. It's investing means different things to different. People, to some clients, the goal is, I just don't want to lose money. Please put me in something that earns a little bit, but I don't want the chance for anything I'm in to go down for others. What investing means is, I want to be more aggressive. I want to build what I have. What do you think about this or that opportunity? What stock should I be in? Because I really want to grab onto an opportunity and seize the day and have as much as I can have at the end of the day. And you know, For still others, it means, it means giving. It means building something up so I can pass it along, either to a charity, to the kids, to the grandkids, to to my religious institution of choice, whatever that is. So I find that investing is not just investing, the the at the root, at the heart of investing, the heartbeat of it, is really the people that I serve. And you know, I was told early on, hey, you don't have a practice. All you're doing is practicing, unless you have people to be in front of. And so in my mind, you know, and I'm not that much of a quantitative guy. I'm I'm not the person out there working as an actuary for Symmetra Life Insurance Company figuring out how much money has to go in and how much it must earn to be able to give 50,000 people the payouts they want from an annuity till the end of their projected lifespans. That's that's not where I am. I'm not designing a mutual fund that's more like what a certified financial analyst would be. I am a Certified Financial Planner practitioner, and what a CFP does is takes numbers that you see and translates those into action steps that I can explain in plain English terms to a client I'm in front of that can give that individual person, family or small business the kinds of outcomes that they want. So I'm on the retail end of the food chain, and my job is to try to take the numbers that others are generating and boil that down into something that is digestible to the common man and woman, that allows them to, we hope, live the way they want. So   Michael Hingson ** 37:29 I gather from listening to you though, that you enjoy what you do.   Kane Brolin ** 37:36 I do particularly when it works.   Michael Hingson ** 37:39 Well, there's times.   Kane Brolin ** 37:40 There are times it gets a little tricky. 2001 2002 I know that you had a very personal experience that vaulted you, Michael, into this, into the realm of the famous, or the Almost Famous, on 911 I remember what 911 was like as a very small time retail investment person working out of a field office. I was somebody's employee at that point. I was working for American Express financial advisors, and I remember my life was never in danger in 911 but there were a lot of clients that thought their money and their data were in danger, and then the country that the country itself, might even be in danger. And so I morphed during that week from being a telemarketing person trying to set appointments with people I'd never met to being a person who was trying to dole out comfort and a feeling of security and solace to people I had met who the few that I was managing their accounts at that time, calling them and saying, You know what, your money and your data are safe. I'm here. The company that you have your stuff invested with is based in Minneapolis. It's not based in the Twin Towers, the markets are shut down. There will be volatility, but you're not crashing today, just so   Michael Hingson ** 39:08 the other the other side of it, the other side of that, was that during that week after September 11, there were a lot of people who were working and moving, literally Heaven and Earth, if you will, to bring Wall Street back. And I know I'm working with some of those companies and providing them with the backup equipment, or not so much at the time, backup equipment, but the equipment that would be able to read existing tape backups and put that back on computers. And I know, I think it was Morgan Stanley had found an office space sometime during the week after September 11. Then, as they describe it, it was the building with a floor the size of a foot. Football field, and they scrounged and scavenged and got their providers of equipment, like IBM to provide them with computers, even taking them from IBM employees desks to provide enough equipment to be able to set up what was the equivalent to the trading floor that had been in the world trade center that was destroyed on September 11, and literally from Friday afternoon that would have been the 14th to the 16th in 36 hours. They not only reconstructed physically what the trading floor was but because of what we provided them with, they were able to completely reconstruct what everything looked like on their computers. So when Wall Street reopened on the 17th, everything was like it was when everything shut down on the 11th now, I think there's some blessings to the fact that the towers were struck before Wall Street opened. I don't know how much easier that made it maybe some, but the reality is that data is backed up regularly, so they would have been able to to survive, but the fact that the markets hadn't opened in the US certainly had to help. But by Monday, the 17th, they brought Wall Street back, just as if nothing had happened. It was a monumental feat to be able to do that. That is a story   Kane Brolin ** 41:37 that I would love to read, because I've never heard that story before, and that makes me feel very unintelligent. Michael, you know, I can't even imagine the logistics and the people and just even the imagination that it would take to reconstruct that. I'm sure it was 1000s. I'm sure it was 1000s of people. And I'm sure that probably that's something that somebody had thought about even before the 911 incident happened. I don't think that was invented out of whole cloth on Friday the 14th, but that's a story that would be a very captivating book, and if no one's written it, then, gosh, would that be a fun thing to research and write.   Michael Hingson ** 42:21 Well, you know, the reality is, the SEC required that all data from financial institutions had to be backed up and kept available off site for seven years. So first of all, the data was all around and that's why I think it was an especially great blessing that the markets hadn't opened, because all the backups from the previous night, and probably from all the not only the futures, but the sales from foreign markets, were pretty much all backed up as well. So everything was backed up. That, of course, was the real key, because getting the hardware, yes, that was a logistical nightmare that they were able to address, getting the computers, getting everything where they needed it. Then companies like ours providing them with the wherewithal to be able to pull the data from the tapes and put it back onto the computers. It had to be quite a feat, but it all worked. And when Wall Street opened, it opened as if nothing had happened, even though some of the the offices were now in completely different places across the river. But it all worked, incredible. Yeah, I was, it was, it was pretty amazing. I knew people from the firms. And of course, we helped them by providing them with equipment. But at the same time, hearing about the story later was was really quite amazing, and and they did a wonderful job to bring all that back. So it was pretty, pretty amazing that that all that occurred. So that was pretty cool all the way. And   Kane Brolin ** 44:00 of course, the other struggle was in 2007 2008 I remember when I would be sitting at my desk and I'm not a day trader, I'm, I'm, I'm a long term investor. That's what most of my clients want. I'm not in there, you know, trading, trading daily options. I'm not doing inverse leveraged products that have to be bought in the morning and then sold in the afternoon under most cases. But I remember sitting at my desk in 2008 when the great recession was going on with the financial crisis happened and and when banks and huge investment banks, brokerage institutions were, in some cases, completely failing, that's a whole other story that was chronicled in books like The Big Short as an example, but I remember sitting at my desk and timing it and watching in a five minute period of time. As the Dow Jones Industrial Average, which was back in in those days, was, was what maybe 6000 or so as a benchmark. It was going up and down by a margin of error of 800 points in five minutes, it would be 400 up one minute, and then 400 down from that level. In other words, an 800 point swing within a five minute period of time. There was one day I went to take a test, because I have continuing education on a pretty regular basis, had to go to a testing center and take a test that lasted maybe three hours. I got back, and I think the market for at least the Dow Jones had dropped by 800 points during the time that I was in the testing center. And that gives you some stomach acid when that sort of thing happens, because even though it it's, you know, things always bounce back, and they always bounce up and down. Clients call and they say, oh my gosh, what happens if I lose it all? Because people really think that they could lose it all. Now, if you're in a mutual fund with 100 different positions, it's very unlikely, right? All of those positions go to zero. What I found out is that when people's money is concerned, it's emotional. Yeah, it's all rational. They're not looking at the empirical data. They're thinking fight or flight, and they really are concerned with what in the world am I going to do if I go to zero? And   Michael Hingson ** 46:38 it's so hard to get people to understand, if you're going to invest in the market, it has to be a long term approach, because if you don't do that, you can, you can disappoint yourself, but the reality is, over the long term, you're going to be okay. And you know now, today, once again, we're seeing the evidence of that with what the Fed did yesterday, lowering by a half a point, and how that's going to affect everything. But even over the last five or six years, so many people have been worried about inflation and worried about so many things, because some of our politicians have just tried to scare us rather than dealing with reality. But the fact of the matter is that it all will work out if we're patient and and allow things to to work. And what we need to do is to try to make wise decisions to minimize, perhaps our risk. But still, things will work out.   Kane Brolin ** 47:43 Yeah, I remember, I think, the Dow Jones Industrial Average, which is what always used to get quoted, at least on the radio and the television. It was somewhere in the somewhere in the 11,000 range, before the 2008 debacle. And it fell to, I think, 6400 right was the low that it reached. Now it's over 41,000   Michael Hingson ** 48:11 closed up above 42 yesterday. I'm not   Kane Brolin ** 48:13 sure it very well may have so you know when you when you really think about it, if you just stayed in and it's more complicated than that. One of course people have with the market is that when the market crashes, they also may need to get their money out for different, unrelated reasons. What if I lost my job as a result of the market crashing? Right? What if? What if there is a need that I have to fulfill and that money has to come out for me to make a house payment. You don't know that. And so that's the unfortunate part, is that a lot of the academic missions don't take into account the real human factor of real people that need to use their money. But if you could stand to hang on and leave it in, it would be worth you know, what would that be like six or seven times more than it was in 2008 but that's not what what clients often do. They they often want to sell out of fear when things are down, and then wait too long to buy back in when the elevator has already made its way quite a ways up, right?   Michael Hingson ** 49:25 I remember once, and I don't remember what the cause was, but Rolls Royce dropped to $3 a share. And there were some people saying, this is the time to buy. It is it's not going to go away. And those who did have done pretty well. Bank   Kane Brolin ** 49:44 of America was $3 a share for quite some time. It was, it was technically a penny stock. This is Bank of America, you know, one of the leading financial institutions in the in the country, which, incidentally, has a very interesting. History. It wasn't born in New York, it was born in the south, right? But, yeah, if you only knew what those trough opportunities were and knew exactly when to buy in and and I'm constantly telling people, look my my goal is, is not so much to figure out what to buy but when to buy in. We're trying to buy low and sell high, and just because something did well last year doesn't mean you have to hang on to it. It might mean we want to trim that position a little bit, take some profit and and pick something that doesn't look as attractive or sexy because of last year's lackluster returns, but maybe this year. It will just due to changing conditions. Financial markets run in cycles. And it's not that some things are inherently good or bad. Some things are in favor now. They were not in favor last year, and they might not be in favor, you know, two years from now, but they are now. So that's the hard part. You're not supposed to really time the market. We can't predict all these things, but that's why you encourage people to diversify and to have some things that are not correlated with each other in terms of doing well or badly at the same time. So you can always sometimes be gaining with in with your left hand, while your right hand is is struggling a bit. Hence,   Michael Hingson ** 51:25 the need for people who are certified financial planners, right? So there you go. So you, you got married, what, 27 years ago, and you married someone who was fully sighted, who probably didn't have a whole lot of exposure to blindness and blind people before. How did all that work out? Obviously, it's worked out because you're still married. But what was it like, and was it ever kind of an uncomfortable situation for you guys?   Kane Brolin ** 51:58 I don't think blindness. Surprisingly enough, I don't think it was super uncomfortable for her. Now, she had not encountered lots of blind people before, maybe not even any before. She met me, but I met her, and this is where I had it easy. She didn't have it easy, but I met her through her family. I knew my wife's name is Danica. I knew her brother before I knew her, because he and I had been buddies. We for a little while. We ended up living in the same town up in Michigan, and it was not here in the South Bend area where she is, but I went home and had a chance to be to tag along as he was doing some some family things and some things with his friends so but, but my wife is a very interesting father. She has a very interesting dad who is no longer with us. May he rest in peace? No, no. Hello. Sorry. My nine year old just made a brief appearance, and she's incorrigible.   Michael Hingson ** 53:00 You wouldn't have it any other way. No, there   Kane Brolin ** 53:03 are days when I would, but I don't. So anyway, the I found out some interesting things raising kids as a blind parent too, but you know, her dad did not see really any kind of limitations when the world around him was racist he really wasn't. When the world around him was ableist. He really didn't. And one of the things he encouraged me to do, they had a little acreage Danika parents did. And he actually asked me one time when it was a leaf blowing or leaf storing season, it was in the fall, lots of oak trees, different things there to drive the garden tractor, as there was a Baleful leaves behind that he was taken to an area where they would eventually be burned up or composted or something. And I did that. He had an old garden tractor with a, you know, his gas powered, and it had pedals and steering wheel, and he would literally run around alongside it, didn't go very fast, and tell me kind of when and where to turn. I'm told that I almost crashed into the pit where the basement of the home was one time, but I didn't. So he was one of these people that like saw virtually no limitations. Encouraged his kids and others to do great things. He didn't have a great feel for people. He would have been an anti politician. He had trouble remembering your name, but if you were a decent person and treated him right, it didn't matter if you were black, purple, green, blind, deaf, whatever. He saw it as an interesting challenge to teach me how to do things. He taught me how to kayak. He taught me how to cross country ski. Back in those days before climate change, we actually got quite a bit of snow in the area where I live, even as early as Thanksgiving to. I'm in November. And so the first couple of winters that we lived here, and we would go to a local park, or, you know, even just out in the in the backyard of where his property was, and, and, and ski, Nordic ski, not downhill ski, really, but it was, it was an amazing exercise. It's an amazing feel to be able to do that, and I have no memory, and I had no relatives that that were in touch with the true Scandinavian heritage, that ancestry.com says that I have, but the act of doing a little bit of Nordic skiing with him gave me a real feel for what some people go through. Because traditionally, skiing was a form of transportation in those countries. In the Larry P you skied to work, you skied to somebody else's house. So, you know, I thought that that was fun and interesting. Now, the last few winters, we haven't gotten enough snow to amount to anything like that, but I do have, I still have a pair of skis. So no, that may be something that we do at some point when given the opportunity, or some other place where we have a bit more of a snow base.   Michael Hingson ** 56:10 Well, I'm sure that some people would be curious to to know this being blind and doing the work that you do, you probably do. Well, you do the same things, but you probably do them in different ways, or have different technologies that you use. What's some of the equipment and kind of technologies that you use to perform your job?   Kane Brolin ** 56:32 Well, you know, I wouldn't say that. I'm cutting edge. I'm sure there are people who do differently and better than I do, but I do most of my work in a PC based environment. It's a Windows based environment at the present time, because the broker dealers and the other firms that I work through, you know, I'm independent, in a way, meaning I pay my own bills and operate out of my own space and have my name of Berlin wealth management as a shingle on my door, so to speak. But you never walk alone in this business. And so I chose, ultimately, a company called the Commonwealth financial network to serve as my investment platform and my source of technology, and my source of what is called compliance, which means, you know, they are the police walking alongside what I do to make sure that I've documented the advice I've given to people, to make sure that that advice is suitable and that I'm operating according to the law and in the best interest of my clients, and not Not taking money from them, or, you know, doing phony baloney things to trade into a stock before I recommend that to somebody else. You know, there's a lot of malfeasance that can happen in this type of industry, but all these securities that I sell and all the advice that I given are done so with the blessing of the Commonwealth Financial Network, which is a member of FINRA and SIPC, I just need to point that out here. But they also provide technology, and most of their technology is designed to work in a Windows environment, and so that's typically what I have used. So I use JAWS.   Michael Hingson ** 58:23 And JAWS is a screen reader that verbalizes what comes across the screen for people who don't know it right, or puts   Kane Brolin ** 58:28 it into Braille, or puts it into Braille in the in the in the early days of my doing the business, many of the programs that we had to use to design an insurance policy or to pick investments, or to even monitor investments were standalone programs that were not based on a web architecture that would be recognizable. And so I was very fortunate that there was money available from the vocational rehab system to bring somebody in from Easter Seals Crossroads here in Indiana, to actually write Jaws script workarounds, that is, that could help jaws to know what to pull from the graphics card on the screen or in the system, to be able to help me interact. Because otherwise, I would have opened up a program and to me, it would have just been like a blank screen. I wouldn't be able to see or interact with data on the screen. Now, with more things being web based, it's a little easier to do those things. Not always. There are still some programs that are inaccessible, but most of what I do is through the use of Windows 10 or 11, and and with the use of Jaws, I do have, I devices. I like Apple devices, the smaller ones. I'm actually speaking to you using an iPad right now, a sixth generation iPad I've had for a while. I have an iPhone so I can still, you know, look up stock tickers. I can send 10. Text messages or emails, if I have to using that. But in general, I find that for efficiency sake, that a computer, a full on computer, tends to work best and and then I use that more rapidly and with more facility than anything else, right? I use the Kurzweil 1000 system to scan PDFs, or sometimes printed documents or books, things like that, into a readable form where I'm trying to, trying to just kind of anticipate what other things you may ask about. But you know, I use office 365, just like anybody else might. You know, I I have to use a lot of commonly available programs, because the people monitoring my work, and even the clients that I interact with still need to, even if they have sight, they need to read an email right after I send it. You know, they've my assistant has to be able to proof and manipulate a document in a form that she can read, as well as one that I can listen to or use Braille with. I'm a fluent Braille reader and writer. So there are some gizmos that I use, some braille displays and Braille keyboards and things of that nature. But, you know, most people seem to be under the misconception that a blind guy has to use a special blind computer, which must cost a king's ransom, not true, if anybody's listening to the program that isn't familiar with 2024 era blindness technology, it's mostly the same as anybody else's except with the modifications that are needed to make stuff accessible in a non visual format, and   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:45 the reality is, that's what it's all about. It's not like it's magically expensive. There are some things that are more expensive that do help. But the reality is that we use the same stuff everyone else uses. Just have some things that are a little bit different so that we are able to have the same access that other people do, but at the same time, that's no different than anyone else. Like I point out to people all the time, the electric light bulb is just a reasonable accommodation for light dependent people. Anyway, it's just that there are a whole lot more people who use it, and so we spend a whole lot more time and money making it available that is light on demand to people. But it doesn't change the fact that the issue is still there, that you need that accommodation in order to function. And you know that that, of course, leads to and, well, we won't spend a lot of time on it, but you are are very involved in the National Federation of the Blind, especially the NFB of Indiana, and you continue to pay it forward. And the NFB has been all about helping people to understand that we're not defined by blindness. We're defined by what we are and who we are, and blindness is happens to be a particular characteristic that we share   Kane Brolin ** 1:03:09 well, and there's a lot of other characteristics that we might not share. As an example, somebody, I don't know that he is involved in the NFB as such, but you know blind, if you're involved in American Blind culture and and that you've probably heard of a man named George Wurtzel. He is the brother of the guy that used to be president of the NFB of Michigan affiliate. But I understand that George is very good at things that I am not at all good at. He, you know? He understand that he almost built his own house from the ground up. His skill is not with computers and email and all this electronic communication that they do today, but he's a master woodworker. He's an artisan. You know, I I'm also involved, and I'd be remiss if I didn't mention it, I'm also involved with an organization called Penny forward, which is, you know, it could be the direction that I ultimately head in even more because it dovetails with my career. It's financial, education and fitness by the blind, for the blind, and it was started by a young man named Chris Peterson, who's based in the Twin Cities, who is not an NFB guy. He's actually an ACB guy, but his values are not that much different, and he's been a computer programmer. He's worked for big organizations, and now he started his own and has made a full time business out of financial fitness, educational curricula, podcasting, other things that you can subscribe to and buy into. And he's trying to build a community of the varied blind people that do all kinds of things and come from all sorts of backgrounds. And in one of the later editions of his podcast, he interviewed a man who's originally from Florida, who. Founded a company called Cerro tech that some might be familiar with, Mike Calvo, and Mike came to some of the same conclusions about blindness that you and I have, except that he's much younger. He's from Florida, and he's a Cuban American. He's a Latino whose first language growing up probably was Spanish, and who actually came out of, out of the streets. I mean, he was, he was in gangs, and did all kinds of things that were very different from anything I was ever exposed to as a young person. So I think in a lot of ways, we as blind people face the same types of issues, but we don't. None of us comes at it from the same vantage point. And, you know, we're, we're all dealing with maybe some of the same circumstances, but many, many, we've gotten there in very many different ways. And so I try to also impose on people. We are all different. We're a cross section. We don't all tie our shoes or cook our meals the same way. We don't want to live in the same environment. We don't want to do the same hobbies. And we don't all have better other senses than sighted people do. I don't know how many times you've heard it. I'd be a very rich man if I had $1 for every time someone said, Well, yeah, but you know, being blind, your hearing must be so much better, your sense of smell must be so much more acute. Well, no, the the divine forces in the universe have not just compensated me by making everything else better. What do you do with someone like Helen Keller, who was blind and deaf. There are people with plenty of people with blindness, and also other morbidities or disabilities, or I don't even like disabilities, different different abilities, different strengths and weaknesses. Along with blindness, there are blind people who also happen to be autistic, which could be an advantage to them, in some ways a disadvantage to others. I would like to go beyond the discussion of disability and think of these things, and think of me and others as just simply being differently able, because, you know, what kinds of jobs and roles in life with people that have the characteristic of autism, maybe they are actually better at certain things than a non autistic person would be. Maybe overall, people who live with the characteristic of bl

I learned from our guest this time that only about %1 of Americans serve in the military. For most of us, our understanding of the military and military life comes from what we see in the movies, watch on television and sometimes from what we read in books. Our guest today, Rob Richard, has served in the U.S. army for over 20 years and is now about to be fully retired from the life that he has come to know. Rob's upbringing was in a military family. I asked him if all that he had learned and seen growing up prepared him for a life in the military. His somewhat surprising answer was “no”. We spend much of this episode learning from Rob what his life was like. We get a glimpse into a military world that is significantly different than what we see in the movies and elsewhere. Rob offers us many great insights and helps us see a side of leadership that we all could learn from. Rob has visited 31 countries both for pleasure and work. What I like most about my time with Rob today is how he has used his military time to learn and develop an understanding of others much less himself. I think you will find Rob's observations poignant and useful in many ways. About the Guest: Rob Richard is a retired Army officer and a native of Southern Maryland. With 20 years of military leadership experience, he has served two combat tours in Iraq during the mid-2000s at the height of the war and several tours in Korea and Germany. Rob spent over six years as a Logistics officer in various Special Operations Units and 14 years in Conventional forces, gaining invaluable experience in both specialized and general military operations. His military experiences range from tragic and harrowing events to comedic tales of misadventure as he navigated his career through the bureaucracy of the American war machine. Rob's career has taken him around the globe, visiting over 31 countries for both work and leisure. He holds a Master's degree in Leadership and Management from Webster University and a Bachelor's degree in Communications from Towson University and completed the ROTC program through Loyola University of Baltimore. He is a dedicated husband and father of two. An alumnus of The Honor Foundation, Rob has successfully transitioned his elite military service to the private sector. The Honor Foundation serves as the premier career transition program for U.S. Special Operations Forces, helping to create the next generation of corporate and community leaders. Ways to connect with Rob: LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-j-richard About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well, hi everyone. I am Mike Hingson, your host here on unstoppable mindset, and we're going to have, I think, a lot of fun, as we usually do, and we love to anyway, I tell all of my guests who come on the podcast that the only rule that we have for unstoppable mindset, and it's a hard and fast rule is you got to have fun, so it's important to do that. Our guest today is Rob Richard. Rob has been in the military for these the last 20 years, and he is retiring, so I'm anxious to hear all about that, and any stories and other things that he wants to tell. But he's he's an intriguing individual. It's been fun chatting with him and preparing for this. So Rob, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Rob Richard ** 02:08 Thanks, Michael. It's, uh, it's honor to be here. You know, last night I told my son, um, a little bit about your backstory, and then I was coming on here, and he was like, Oh, that's such an honor to talk to him. And he said, wow, they picked you, dad, really? And I was like, I was like, I guess, I guess he wants to speak with me. So it's an honor talking to you, and I appreciate your backstory. And my son, you know, learning about history in America over the past, you know, 20 years or so, being nine, he was very, you know, thought it was very honor for me to speak with you today. And I agree. I concur. So thank you very much for having   Michael Hingson ** 02:36 me. Well, I don't know, as a matter so much a matter of picking my belief is that everyone has a story to tell, and I believe that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. And the problem is that we grow up mostly not really learning to have as much in the way of self confidence, and I mean that in a positive way, as opposed to just an ego, but self confidence and self respect as we should have, and all too often, were were encouraged not to really think as strongly about our capabilities and ourselves as we should. So my goal with unstoppable mindset has always been to give people an opportunity to come on and tell their story and help all of us realize that we're more unstoppable than we think we are. And I think that's really pretty important to do. So I Well, one of these days we we have to interview your son, and that ought to be fine. He's   Rob Richard ** 03:36 going to achieve great things. He's more kids, so it takes after his mom. So Well, there   Michael Hingson ** 03:41 you go. Well, I suspect that you have something to do with it too, sure. Well, tell us a little bit kind of about the early Rob growing up and all that sort of stuff.   Rob Richard ** 03:51 So I come from a military family. My father was in the army, and he's from New Jersey originally, but my maternal family was based out of Baltimore. My grandfather, paternal grandfather, was also in the military. I spent most of my formative years in Southern Maryland, in Charles County, Maryland, which is a distinctly unique place. It's about, you know, 45 to 50 minutes south of DC. So there's a bit of this sort of rural kind of where the south starts right the Chesapeake Bay and the lower Potomac River, a culture of nefarious characters and great fun growing up there. But I was close enough to DC to be around that that sort of government culture quite a bit. Also had a few formative years in Alabama and Alaska as well, moving around so that shaped a lot of who I was living in the South in the in the 80s and early 90s. And then, of course, you know, I went to college in Baltimore, very closely connected to that city, based on my maternal family's connection. There huge oils fan. I love the city of Baltimore. Brother was a police officer there for a while. So I'm a Maryland guy through and through. I'm from there. Very proud of it. I went to college at Towson University in Baltimore, Maryland. Ah. Where I did the ROTC program through Loyola College, and that's pretty much the gist of me. I think that growing up where I did around the folks that I did, the interesting characters, the type of youth that I had a little bit wild and and sort of free for all that sort of Gen Xenu youth, of just kind of being let, let go to my own devices kind of help shape who I am and help shape my character greatly. So that's pretty much my early start in life.   Michael Hingson ** 05:26 So there was kind of no doubt that you were going to go into the military. Probably family expected it, and you grew up expecting it, I guess.   Rob Richard ** 05:36 Well, you know, I to be honest, I never thought much about the military until I was going to go away to college, right? And so my dad was like, hey, you know, the ROTC program is a great way to give yourself an opportunity right out of college, and they pay for everything. So Truth in Lending, I probably joined the army more for financial reasons out of the gate than, you know, family patriotic reasons. They're certainly part of that. And obviously, when I was in ROTC, the second year, 911 obviously happened. And so I knew that my future was kind of written for me, with a lot of strife going forward as a military guy. So I knew probably around 2021, that's kind of what I wanted to do. But it wasn't always that way. There was a lot of other things I wanted to do growing up, and it just kind of, for whatever reason, that was the shining light that kind of, you know, directed me towards, you know, serving. So I ended up doing that for 20 years, and here I am now. So   Michael Hingson ** 06:30 Well, there you go. Well, on the other hand, if there were other things that you wanted to do, did you get to do any of them in the military? Did the military give you up an environment where you were able to stretch and grow and maybe do some things that that you wanted to do, or maybe that you didn't even think you were ever going to do.   Rob Richard ** 06:48 Yes, I think, you know, one of the great things that that the military offered me was a chance to, I love getting in front of audiences, and I love to tell a story, and I love to tell and, you know, and tell a joke, and tell the things, and do these sort of things. So as a leader, you have to develop a great sense of communication, a great sense to relate to people who come from different backgrounds and and, you know, different places than yourself. And I think the military, being a leader in the military, in particular, you know, the branch of service that I served in the Army, as a logistician, I got a chance to really work with a lot of different types of folks and a lot of different groups of people. And it let me kind of see just all walks of life. And then I kind of mentioned we sent our pre question was, I've been to 31 countries for fun, you know, not just for work. I met my wife in Germany. She's was an American soldier as well. I've got a chance to see the world. The world. The military gave me that privilege. They gave me that opportunity that a lot of people just don't get, you know, I've gotten to see all kinds of things and go out and see the world. So I was very fortunate. And so I guess meeting new and interesting people, seeing the world leading young men and women in combat, is very important to me. It's something that I, you know, never really thought I would have a chance to do growing up, and there's, there's no war now, there was one. So, yeah, I got a chance to do, do these things for many years over so I'm very thankful to the military for that,   Michael Hingson ** 08:11 just the military, and this is just just popped into to my head. So it's just a curiosity, does the military overall tend to evolve as society evolves. I mean, it's not a stagnant kind of a thing. I would assume. I   Rob Richard ** 08:27 think it's a little bit ahead of the game, but I don't necessarily think they're ahead of the game, because it's necessarily the righteous thing to do, but it's almost a business decision, meaning so they desegregated units before most of America, you know, in our general populace was desegregated, but that was more of a decision because they they needed to have people work together, right? Because they had wars and to fight and and things to do. So I think the military is often ahead of the curve when it comes to, you know, desegregation, when it comes to, you know, moving people forward that don't have the backgrounds that are necessarily totally accepted by society at the time. So I think they're a little ahead of the head of the game when it comes to to those sort of things. So I think they generally keep pace with society, yes, if not a little bit ahead.   Michael Hingson ** 09:11 I'll tell you why I asked. It just was something I was thinking about as you were talking. I grew up in the Vietnam era, and for what that was worth on all sides. But during that time, they instituted and had the draft and they even developed a lottery system to decide who was going to go first. And my lottery number was fairly low, but when I turned 18, I fairly quickly got a letter saying you are classified one, a which was the classification where you could be drafted into the military. And I knew that that wasn't going to last being blind, and that they would figure that out, and they did, but I've always thought for me and. And others, they missed it. Why is it that a blind person couldn't find opportunities to serve in the military? It doesn't necessarily mean that we have to be in in the middle of a war zone. There are certainly other aspects of working in the military that a blind person could do, and yet the military kind of never really took advantage of that. Now there are a few people who were blinded in in wartime or because of one thing or another with terrorists, and so they're in the military. They started in the military and then they continued. But it still is true that you don't find real opportunities for blind people to serve in any aspect of the military. And I had a company that I formed back in 1985 and one of the main people who helped me was a retired colonel from the Marines, and he even said there is no reason why there there aren't opportunities available for people who are blind and think tanks and doing other kinds of things that are outside the regular war zone. So it's kind of fascinating, but I think it's an interesting and relevant thing to think about that clearly there are opportunities that ought to be available. Does that make sense?   Rob Richard ** 11:23 It does. I agree. I think one, the one thing about being a soldier at any level is there needs to be a commonality and a standard of that people can do a baseline thing, right? So there's physical fitness assessments, there's things that people need to do based on, you know, certain levels of training, whether it's shooting or going out and doing all these things, that there needs to be a baseline where everyone's kind of even So certain things that I worked in recruiting, uh, ironically enough, for two years, and certain things that are just qualifiers take away from the universal, uh, set that people need a universal set of skills, that people need to be a soldier in general. So there's avenues and different things that you can do with a disability or with things that are would mitigate you from serving in the front lines. But a little bit of what we'll talk about is in these previous wars, not everybody that was necessarily considered a frontline soldier, you know, was, was certainly not negated from from facing combat. And we can, we can talk about that, expound that a little bit, but I think that every person needs to have a basic set of skills. And there are certain things that, if you are blind or if you do have a disability that would, you know, take away from your your ability to do things that are a standard set of things, like, even as a senior officer or a senior non commissioned officer, you still have to take a certain physical fitness test, you still have to, you know, go out and shoot your weapon. You still have to do things that require sight, that require a certain level of hearing. Once you take away from that commonality that everyone has, now you're looking at someone who's not brought into the field and accepted as a soldier of commonality. Does that does that make sense? Or   Michael Hingson ** 12:59 you make an assumption, though, that isn't necessarily so. For example, there are a number of blind people who do shoot their hunters and so on. And so the issue is you have to separate out the skill from how you exhibit the skills. So, for example, right, shooting at a target, if there is a, if there is an auditory cue that allows me to aim at the target, can I learn to shoot at a target and and likewise, yeah, but I hear what you're saying, but I think at the same time, the reality is that that there are, there are certainly options, and what we really need to do is not leave out intelligent minds that might very well be able to contribute to what we do. And that's kind of what prompted the question,   Rob Richard ** 13:58 Oh, I agree, too. And I think that when you see the recruiting crisis that in particularly the army is facing, there needs to be avenues that bring other folks in who might not have the traditional physical skill set that other soldiers have, and allow them to serve. I agree with that, and that's something, I think, especially modern technology, that could be something to be brought into the fold in the future, to be looked at. But I do think, for like, I worked in Special Operations for, you know, for several years, you know, as paratrooper these sort of things. There are certain things that you must have this physical acumen and things that you must be able to do in order to accomplish those tasks in those schools. And, you know, the different training assessments that you have. So if there's a separate place that people can go and have those technologies available to mitigate anything that perhaps their, you know, disability might stop them from doing, I think that's certainly something to consider and something to look at going forward. So that's a great point. Like, I appreciate you bringing that up. I never looked at it that way, to be honest. So I always thought about this linear way of looking at. That you have to have these certain physical attributes to serve. But that's great. I that's a good way to look at it. So it's   Michael Hingson ** 15:06 well and I think, I think it's important to look at what attributes are are necessary to have, but But I also think that a lot of times what we can discover is that exhibiting those attributes may not be the same for one person as opposed to another, but the point is, we can still exhibit the attributes. So it's an interesting thing to, you know, to explore. Great. So tell me about the you know, and I realize that you're speaking for you and your observations and so on. But tell me a little bit about the crisis. You mentioned that, and I read it elsewhere. Tell me a little bit more about the crisis that we're really exhibiting today.   Rob Richard ** 15:46 So I worked in the Dallas, United States Army recruiting Dallas for two years. I was executive officer there, and I was also a time operations officer. And so I got to see the big picture of how the army does recruiting. And even then, in the height of the war, when the what they call the numbers was up and recruiting was was pretty good, still, they struggled to to link up the kind of bridge where they call it military civilian gap, right? So there's a couple different things I think that we need to take into consideration here. Number one, I think about only 1% of the nation serves right? And a large percentage of those folks are like myself. There they are legacy people, people who have a connection to the military. So I think the first thing to do is you have to bridge that military and civilian gap, and you have to look at why aren't people joining the military, right? And I'll be honest with you, the the army itself is terrible at branding in comparison to, say, the Marine Corps, right? Things like uniform and commonality of identity, the Marines do that way better, I think, than the army does. Right? As far as like, we have this certain set of things that we go with are always kind of changing their motto and go in different directions. But in general, there's also a population of people, because we just hit on it. Now you talk about, you know, having something that's going to stop you from serving. There are a large number of people who just don't meet the criteria. It's actually harder to get into the United States Army than it is to go to a four year university. So you're talking about physical fitness requirements. You're talking about legalities. You know, people getting in trouble with the law that disqualifies them from service, prior drug use, things like that, things that are looking at packing away and taking away for waivers. But the number one biggest thing is, I just think society societal differences on how civilian people and the military are connected. I think people just have a general misunderstanding of what the military is. They have a general misunderstanding of what it is to serve. And I just don't think that in our in our current society, that enough people are willing to step up and do it because life is too comfortable, and that's my personal opinion. That's not necessarily, you know, the Army's opinion. That's my opinion. Do you   Michael Hingson ** 17:51 think that it also has to do with how the military is portrayed, like in movies and TV shows and so on? Does that enter into it at all? Yes, I think, you know, we think so, and that's why I asked, I think   Rob Richard ** 18:04 so. And I like to get your take on what it is that when you say that, is it the is it a negative portrayal? Is a good portrayal. If you look at how certain wars are portrayed, right, you take it away. World War Two was portrayed versus, say, Vietnam, right? They're not portrayed totally different ways, right? You look at the modern war, and often veterans are painted this picture of a tragic experience, a tragic a tragedy, right? There's often this experience that is okay. This is a person that had a tragic thing happened to them. The war is something that was they went through and now they have this ailment, or whatever it is. It's often framed as that, but it's more complex than that. Yeah, a service is more complex than that. And I think that another thing is people don't understand that most military folks are middle class by the time they hit a certain age, right? So by the time you are excuse, by the time they hit a certain rank or time in service, they have middle class, you know, houses they live in a certain way of of a certain lifestyle that the army and the military in general affords to them. And I don't think people understand the financial and monetary benefit that you get for from the military. I don't think that's clearly articulated as a as a form of, hey, this is something I want my kid to do. You know, there's a lot of this, not in my backyard, type, but hey, that's great. Thank you for your service. But I don't want to serve, right? There's a lot of that that goes around in American society, I think. And I don't know if that resonates with you or if you agree, or Yeah, I   Michael Hingson ** 19:23 do understand that. I certainly don't disagree. I think that there is a lot of merit to that. What, what strikes me, though, is that there is a great misunderstanding. You know, if you watch some of the TV shows that are on when they talk about the military, it's, it's kind of a romanticized sort of thing, but the the and the the tragedy of veterans and so on, certainly there, there's a lot of that is focused on that at the same time when. We, when we go back and look at it, what, what caused that tragedy? What did? What did we not do as a society, to say, Bring a veteran home and be able to completely integrate them back into or bring them fully into society? And that's something where I think we as a as a society, do miss the point that where is much to I don't I want to use the word blame, but be responsible for integrating people back in because clearly, one of the things that I think is true about the military, and I don't think it's a bad thing, is that it is a particular kind of lifestyle. It's a very regimented lifestyle, and that's okay. But now, when you bring people, say, who have been to war and who have seen things back into society, there are, there is a lot more that we probably really ought to do to make sure that we're helping people get back into into the world that we're most of us are used to, and the fact that we don't understand what the world was that they were in, sort of contributes to us not really knowing how to bring them back into it.   Rob Richard ** 21:16 I agree. I agree. I think one of the things about special operations, where I worked for the past seven years, is they do a really good job of helping veterans, like, transition out of the military, whether they've had four or five years, or whether they've had, you know, 20 years, like myself, they have great programs. I told you. I completed the Honor Foundation, which was, you know, did a great service for me, helping me trans. Help Me transfer into civilian life and help me prepare for not in the corporate world, but just life in general. I think the military is getting better at that. I certainly think that our modern day era veterans were treated far better than, say, Vietnam veterans who came home. Yeah, you know, I really do believe that. I know my grandfather was a Vietnam vet, and I know there were times where, you know, he couldn't wear his uniform anywhere, or there's just people weren't treated with the same level of respect that I was. I always felt that when I came home, right, not necessarily the integration piece, but the fact that, you know, being a veteran, I always felt that I was thanked, or at least it's somewhat some way, even though it might seem patronizing that I was at the very least welcomed home and welcomed back and people appreciated, you know, whether they've experienced it or not, appreciate what I had been through, and we're very grateful for the most part, as to where in Vietnam, they certainly weren't. I think we've gotten better as a society about that. But where does that take you in, in the real and Reality of Things, right? Is it? Is it better veterans care, better mental health awareness, you know, things that I think they're working on? I certainly don't think we do a great job, in general, providing mental health for soldiers outside of special operations, right outside of the elite units that get elite care to access a lot of what military mental health care is is simply just getting you to go back to do your job, right? But when you leave the military, then the behavioral health, mental health care, it should be about getting you back to being a, you know, a human that is going to enjoy and live life to the fullest, right? So there's a difference, right? One's kind of make you a person who's going to go back to work and do is, you know, run the machines and run the papers as a as George Carlin would say. And the other is going to help you kind of be a normal human that fits into society, and that's the difference, you know? I think, well, the   Michael Hingson ** 23:25 other, the other aspect of it is that in the military, it is a very regimented sort of thing, and most of the time, there are people above you, and you realize they make the decisions, and we just carry out the orders. And now being back in the mainstream of society, you are more responsible for doing a lot of those things for yourself. And again, that's something that we need to teach people how to do.   Rob Richard ** 23:52 Again, sure. Well, I would, oh, go ahead, Michael, go ahead. No, go ahead. I was going to say I tend to disagree with that a little bit. I think people have a stereotype about military folks. You know, I you know most military people after, I said, as I mentioned before, after they hit a certain time and service a certain rank, their life is somewhat individualized. It's not necessarily a control that's a good point. Yeah, it really much is, I live in my own house. I don't live on post. I don't wake up every day and go to listen to listen to the bugle at five o'clock in the morning. You know, I think there's a misconception that soldiers are robots. When they are individuals with families, they are individuals, you know, that live lives outside of the military. Is it regimented? Yes. Is it a lifestyle? Yes. But I do think there's a misconception that the military is this completely controlling organization that has every facet of your life under control, and that's just not the case. You know, like I said, it's a it's just not really the case of how most military folks are. And there's so many great minds and artists and people that have all these great ideas that serve in the military, that are very bright and articulate and all these things. There's just a misconception about what a veteran is, I think. And I. Think that's another thing that when we tie in service and why people will and won't join, is the misconception. I mean, how many veterans do most people know? Do they have an uncle or a cousin or somebody that serves and that's something that we miss? You know, it's not exactly all the things that you see in the movie, you know, the guy on the street corner with the fatigue jacket and the one arm missing asking for money, that's that's not really most veterans. That's not really most of us. I think that's a misconception. Michael, that's just my take. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 25:24 and I, and I certainly didn't want to imply that it's so regimented that everybody's a robot, but, but I, but I, but I do think that until you get to that level that you were talking about, and I think that's a very valid point, it's probably more regimented than than a lot of people absolutely are used to. But by the same token, it still gets back to what level of support do we really give people when they when they come back, and the fact that there probably is a lot more that we could do. But you, you said something that prompts another question. And I think I'm well, I think I know the answer to this, but I'll be curious to see what you say, and that is, you're right back in the days of Vietnam veterans came home and they were they were spit on, they were not treated well, and so on. And it's a lot different today. Do you think that September 11 had a lot to do with that?   Rob Richard ** 26:20 I do. I think that people became, I was a young college student in the ROTC program, not quite in the military just yet, but I think that that event was the single catalyst to people realizing that, you know, we came together as a nation, more so than any other thing in my lifetime, ever after 911 so we came together. Now the wars that followed subsequently were very controversial, right? And they were something that divided the nation, but that particular event, you know, made the nation come together at writ large, more than any other event in history. So I think that that that kind of triggered people to be more understanding and appreciative of the military and the things that they would go do right, regardless of the political landscape, of what the wars would follow. People were very grateful. So I think 100% that 911 was a catalyst for people to be more patriotic, more supporting of the military. You know, enlistments were up. People were left and right, looking to join during that time frame, at least the first five to six years prior to the wars kind of going on, becoming quagmire, if you will. So I think so. I think you're right,   Michael Hingson ** 27:30 yeah, well, and I also think that the whole issue with the wars that followed, unfortunately, politics got much too much involved with it. So after September 11, should we have gone into Afghanistan to go after Osama bin Laden? That's one thing, but then, but then we decided to go into Iraq and go after Saddam Hussein, which was a totally different thing. And I still, yeah, and I still believe that that made no sense to do, but we did Sure, and we took our eye off the bin Laden ball, which is part of the problem. So unfortunately, politics gets too much into it and and that, in part, comes from the low bar that we have for politicians. So what do you do?   Rob Richard ** 28:19 I agree with that, yeah, we can agree on that. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 28:23 it's, it's a it's a challenge, you   Rob Richard ** 28:25 know, here's something I'll say on that, as far as I think when you serve in in I was, I'm a wreck veteran, so I've been to Iraq. I spent 15 months of my life there. And I will tell you that when you're there, you know, and I went there kind of a starry eyed sort of young lieutenant, just with the delusions of how things were going to go. So it's really a movie character on those sort of like character Oliver Stone movie, and what I saw was quite different than the reality of what I thought I would see. But I will tell you this at the end of the day, regardless of the political implications of the wars and the meanings behind them, when you have the American military machine together, right? And however chaotic it is, or however things are, I can hang my head on the fact that I was able to lead my soldiers, men and women, young people from you know, like The Rolling Stones of that great song, the salt of the earth, right? Say, say a prayer for the common foot soldier. Those were my guys, the common truck driver, mechanic and people that you know join the military for a certain purpose, whether it's money for patriotism, whatever, when asked to do this mission, regardless of its political implications, they did it. They did it well, and they did it to a level that's impressive and something that is beautiful to watch in action and that I'll always be proud of. Yeah. So if Aaron ever says, hey, you know, you serve these wars, and they're this, that and the other. I don't think when you're there, you think too much about it. That's the Coming Home part. That's the that's the thing you face later. When you're dealing with, you know, whether it's PTSD or these other sort of issues, that's when the philosophical question is to be answered. When you're there, when you're in the fight, that is. This, you doing your mission, you and your guys, the old adage, adage of left and right, that's what you're doing, and that I'm proud of, and that I can think our military did a great job. Right. Losing the war in the political sense is far different than losing the battles right in the actual militarily sense. So that's just something I hang my hat on. And I think that if we overlooked that as a society, and we overlooked that as a culture, that the wars are just this negative thing, and they were kind of, you know, excuse my language, or kind of, Bs, whatever. Yeah, we're overlooking the accomplishments of the actual people that were asked to do these things, right?   Michael Hingson ** 30:32 Well, and also well, and ultimately, let's, let's take Afghanistan. You know, we have we were there for a long time. Should we have been there as long as we were? I think that's a question that you can you can discuss and debate, but at the same time, the ultimate thing we were looking to do was to deal with Osama bin Laden, and we did that. But then we did continue to stay, and there were reasons for it. Should we have or should we have been smarter about withdrawing again? Those are all discussions that one could have. But I think that ultimately, it seems to me, you know, if people said, and people ask me, Well, did we lose the war in Afghanistan? I don't know that we lost the war, but I think the politicians didn't help but I think that the military did what they were supposed to do. I   Rob Richard ** 31:24 agree. But, you know, I the the general who said this escapes me, but it was not a 20 year war. It was a one year war fought 20 times. Yeah. So when you so you have these wars, you have a different general, a different you know, whatever it is, come in and they all have a different take on how we're going to accomplish this goal. But both those wars, whether it was the one I fought in Iraq or the one in Afghanistan, you know, they there were no real clear objectives for us. They were one year at a time, little hash marks of trying to accomplish these small goals. And we were never given a clear picture of what victory looked like, very similar to Vietnam. So I think that's, I don't think that's put on the that's not put on the backs of the common veteran. That's put on the backs of the politicians. Yeah, that was that, I was sure that's put on. I The generals too. I think so they, they owe their, you know, by that time you hit to that, that level, it's, it's a political level. And I think they're, they owe an answer to that. You know, my personal opinion, me as a retired Army officer, I think they owe an answer to that.   Michael Hingson ** 32:23 Well, we don't necessarily have the same kind of generals as we had with a patent or even a storm in Norman Schwarzkopf. You know the Sure, sure.   Rob Richard ** 32:31 Well, there's some very particular generals out there. Some good there are. But I there are, I think, I think those wars were never, never given clear, clearly defined objectives by any political figure, and that makes it impossible to what you would traditionally call a win, right? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 32:48 I do. I do. I know exactly what you're saying, and it makes and it makes perfect sense well for you. So you joined the military. Did you think that you were going to be traveling the world and seeing 31 countries and doing all the things that that you did, or was any of that a surprise to you? No,   Rob Richard ** 33:05 I'll tell you. So when you're in college and you're ROTC, you you know, or West Point, or whatever you're, you know, I was an ROTC guys. So you have West Point, you have OCS, your different commissioning sources, you're, you're branched a certain whether it's infantry or armor or whatever, I was a transportation branch. So I thought I, you know, I got stationed in Germany, my first duty assignment. And, you know, I had two deployments to the Middle East during that time. It was about a six year stint. And I never thought that I would have this amazing fun, adventurous and it's a family show here, adventurous show. Adventurous life that I had, that that that I was given. I thought I would just end up at some base somewhere in Texas, and barbecue on Sundays, drink more lights, watch football like everybody else. I never thought I'd have this great life. I never thought I'd travel the world in Gallivan so I'm very fortunate in that way. And I just, I don't think most people picture that, but when you get your first what they call assignment, your duty station, and it's Germany, and my second one being Korea, traveling all around Asia. You know, with my, my awesome wife, I I'll tell you, I never thought I would have that, to be honest with you, that's never something that crossed my mind. That level of adventure and fun, it almost kind of mitigates some of the things that you had to go through in war. It almost makes it like they kind of balance each other out, I think, well,   Michael Hingson ** 34:19 and traveling to and traveling to Germany, of course, got you your wife.   Rob Richard ** 34:24 Yes, true, yeah. So we met. You were both soldiers, and just, you know, we, we met by by sheer chance, and that's something that I look back on, and I'm always very thankful to Uncle Sam for that. So,   Michael Hingson ** 34:34 yeah, there's, there is that. Did she stay in the military?   Rob Richard ** 34:38 No, she got out. So we, we were in Korea, and then I got stationed to go work in recruiting in Dallas. And she made the decision that, you know, I was a little bit further along, a little bit older. And she made, we made the decision that, hey, the dual military thing is very difficult. That is one of the, I think, most difficult career choices you could make, is to have two service members in especially once you hit the senior levels. And so we decided, hey, you know. I'm going to stay in, she's going to get out, and she's a very successful entrepreneur, doing very well with with some things that she's got going on. So I think we made the right choice, and she gets to be mom and be this amazing mother. So I think that's something, I think collectively, was the right decision. Well, that that worked. How old? How old are the kids? I got a nine year old, my son, Alex, and then he's about to be 10, and then my daughter, Evie, named Evangeline, after a song by the the band the Great, the band Yvonne Hill, she is six. So they're, they're still pretty young. A lot of give me, give me a handful here. Well, that's,   Michael Hingson ** 35:34 that's fine, you know. And we'll see who, who does better and who handles who better? The kids handle you guys, or you handle the kids better. We   Rob Richard ** 35:43 were on a pretty tight ship here, Michael, so at least my wife does. I'm going to push over, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 35:49 Well, there you go. Well, but it, but it's, but it is interesting to to be able to see a lot of the world. And I, you know, I've, I've had the never been to Germany. I've been to Korea and spend some time there. And that was a lot of fun. I've been to Japan and to some places. I've been to the Netherlands, but not to Germany, when actually, in about a month and a half, no, actually about a month, I'll take my first trip to London to speak. Oh, wow. I've been to Ireland, but never to London. And then it's fun to go through the logistics of being able to take a guide dog to London and doing all the things to to clear the dog. I think it's a lot more work to get him ready to go than me, but we'll cope. Yeah, but it's, but it's, but it is fun. And I, I think there is so much value in seeing so many different places around the world and all that we can learn. I think that we take way too much for granted, and we we think that we're so much better, sometimes than than other places. And in some right, some ways, our country and our society works better, and some ways it doesn't necessarily do that, but I don't think it's my place to judge, but rather to go and learn and bring back knowledge and put it to use.   Rob Richard ** 37:04 I agree, it certainly makes you a better person as as a collective right to understand. You know, America's a great place, and I love this country dearly, but there are many things that that we can learn from other cultures. You know, we work so hard here in Germany, and I tell you about three o'clock, they take off and go have a beer and relax a little bit. You know, there's, and they still, they managed to run a very efficient society without the hustle culture that we have. And I, I am a stern capitalist. I love to work hard. But there's something to take away from that. You know, there's also, on the other side of the spectrum, in Korea and Asia, they work even harder than we do, right? So there's, there's a level of where to meet in the middle, and looking at these different cultural things. And, you know, it's just, I just very fortunate to have seen all that, and take a little bit from each one and kind of develop my own life, and these are gonna teach my children and stuff. So that's, that's great. I think I love London, too. The   Michael Hingson ** 37:54 founder of the National Federation of the Blind was a blind constitutional law scholar, Jacobus tembrick, who was at UC Berkeley, and one of the things that his wife told me, I never did get to know chick 10 Brook, but I knew his wife, and she said that he could go for long periods of time, because he would take what we now call a power nap for 20 minutes, and then he could get up and work for hours. And we don't encourage any of that, and I think it's truly unfortunate, because there's a lot of value in having a little bit of downtime that then keeps you able to keep moving a lot more than you think you might.   Rob Richard ** 38:33 No, no, I agree. I think that's something in the military they focused a few years, the past couple of years, on, which is, I don't know it's, maybe it's all for not but focusing on on sleep, you know, wellness and overall spiritual you know, thing that's going on here, trying to get everybody together in this sort of triad approach of wellness, sleep and physical fitness and stuff. And sleep is so important to being a successful leader. You know, one hour of sleep versus four makes all the difference in your decision making. Makes all the difference in your ability to lead, your ability to persevere through problems. So slaves huge, you know, even it's only four hours, yeah, well,   Michael Hingson ** 39:12 and but again, even during the day, taking a half hour and resting your eyes and then coming back gives you energy to continue, and we don't. We don't do enough of that. So I'm, I'm all in favor of exploring and and doing more to to deal with sleep and wellness and looking at other ways to help us move more effectively and more efficiently during the day. I agree. Yeah, so it makes sense well, now your career as a logistician and so on, as you said, is pretty unique. What what made it so unique, and why do you feel that that really helped shape you into what you are, and where do you think this is going to take you going forward?   Rob Richard ** 39:58 So I think a lot of times. When you are again, we talk about conditioning source. So when you go into the military, a lot of guys, they say, Okay, I want to be an infantry person. I want to be an armor guy. I want to be special forces, whatever. There's many different avenues that you can enter the military. And I think coming in initially as a transportation officer. You know, I went to Iraq, and I had these sort of experiences that, I think, again, we talk about movies, they're often overlooked, right? So I was in Iraq for 12 months. My first deployment, I was a platoon leader. I had 60 soldiers. I went on well over 60 plus missions that are, what are called convoys. So I was putting in these dangerous, arduous situations and these things that that could result in grave violence, and these sort of things that I experienced, and that my soldiers experienced, that gave me a unique out outlook on life, right? And I think that because of our underdog persona in nature, as logistics guys, you know, it's all a big wheel, and there's all these folks that make it work, right? And so as an underdog type character, and having these sort of salt of the earth type soldiers, it's given me a unique perspective on people, a unique empathy. I think a lot of military guys are kind of seen, seen as cold and stern, these sort of square jaw type characters. I don't really think I'm like that at all. It's giving me a unique perspective to grow and to be more loving and empathetic, to be a better dad. I think just serving that type of field and that type of profession is very different. It's also a little more diverse than, like, say, your standard, like Special Operations Unit, which is a lot of square jawed white guys from the Midwest, you know, as to where logistics, there's a much more diverse profile of people from all over, you know, from Jamaica or Puerto Rico, from every different state, from these, these different types of folks. And I really had a chance to just work with people who are different, who built my level of love and empathy overall. And I think being in the branch and the field that I was in really helped shape that for me. And then just, I don't think I would have had the experiences say I had been, you know, I mean, I went to airborne school when I was 38 so I did the paratrooper thing. I served in Special Operations units, airborne units, this sort of thing. And I'm honored to have been with those. But I think if I hadn't started in these sort of, like working class type units, you know, out of Germany, you know, under equipment, under trained, I really learned to persevere through things without the best of everything, right, without the best training, without the best you know, given the best tools to go accomplish, you had to accomplish more with less, right? And I think that really is a lesson that you can't really get necessarily in other fields and other branches of the military. I really think what I got assigned to do really helped me persevere through things and become a better person overall. And I don't know if that answers the question. But I think that's kind of, you know, the uniqueness of it that makes it different. And most people, again, haven't had the opportunity to travel and see the things I have. And I just think that, you know, I'm very fortunate in that realm. So I just think overall, holistically, my life has been better because of the job that I got. And to be honest with you, I mean, it's great to be an infantry guy, but a supply chain manager, professional supply chain manager, really does prepare you a little better for the corporate world. So in the end, it kind of helps you transition to the civilian thing that you can do and gain monetary advantage. So I think it all worked out. I   Michael Hingson ** 43:16 think it does probably just with the little that I know about it and understand about I think it does probably better prepare you, because the jobs are fairly similar to what you'll find in certain aspects of the corporate world, which is kind of important. And I like your idea on your analogy of doing things with less. I think a lot of us, especially for those of us who are blind, for example, and people with disabilities in general, oftentimes we have to deal with less, just because society hasn't emphasized making sure that we have alternatives that give us the same chances and opportunities as others do. So we have to deal with less like I work for accessibe. And so accessibe is a company that, among other things, helps makes websites more inclusive for for people with disabilities. Well, the bottom line is that people creating websites don't do things that they could do to make websites more usable and accessible right off the bat. And so the result is that we have to get creative in figuring out how, if it at all possible, we can use a website, and some we can't, because there's just no way, no way to have information that works. But there are also any number of websites that are accessible enough or have enough information that is a friend of mine once said, we can muddle through and make it work, but we do have to deal with those challenges, and I think it makes us better, because we face the challenges and we work through them.   Rob Richard ** 44:54 That makes perfect sense. That does Yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 44:56 so you having to do that same sort of thing. Sometimes it it makes you a better person. It makes you probably more of a resilient person, but at least it makes you a more inventive person, because you don't take some things for granted.   Rob Richard ** 45:11 Yes, and you know, I think people when they have an idea of a soldier or a leader, I think emotional intelligence and empathy are something that people don't associate with the military. But when you're when you're a young, 24 year old lieutenant, all the way up through, you know, being a more senior officer or senior leader, you have so much of your life that is assigned and tasked to helping others and taking care of people. Their problems are your problems, right? You learn so much about the human condition through serving in the military that I don't think it can even compare in any other walk of life, you know, say, maybe being a first responder or something along those lines. But when you're with somebody in this this situation is arduous and dangerous for 12 months, you know, going on all the way through a 20 year career, you can't put a price or a value on how much experience you get of developing an emotionally intelligent approach to things, right? Some people, I think anybody who doesn't struggle with decisions as a human right, it goes through the experience of war and serving in the military. I think very rarely do you not come out of that with a real profound understanding of the human condition, right? And I don't think anything else could give you that, as far as a profession. And I think understanding people becoming more loving, it might not seem like something from a military guy to say, but loving empathy, you know, understanding the these, these folks and different types of people. I think it's a beautiful thing to be honest, you know, and I feel very cherished that I've had to have that opportunity to become a better human. Again, things aren't necessarily associated with like a military man who's straightforward and, you know, talks in a certain way. And again, some people aren't like that. Some people kind of go through, you know, self absorbed, like any profession, just about themselves. But I think a good military leader. You know, the army a leader, and particularly officers, we always eat last, right? So when I went to Airborne School at 38 years old, as an old, older guy, I was the second oldest guy in my class, the highest ranking person in my class, and so I ate after 200 soldiers, I let 200 people go in front of me, right? And that's not to be hubris or to brag about something, but that's just what you're supposed to do as a leader, to get to show that, hey, I'm here for you guys. You guys eat first, right? You always leaders, always eat last. There's that old adage. And I just think the regular world is not necessarily, the regular civilian world isn't necessarily that way, you know? And I think that's something that really made me grow as a human and to be a better person. So Well, I've always   Michael Hingson ** 47:40 felt, having worked in the corporate world, that a good boss is a boss who doesn't boss people around, who recognizes that leadership means sometimes you give up leadership to somebody else when there's a specific thing that you figure out they can do better. But also I believe that my role is to add value to each and every person who works for me, and I have to figure out with them how to add that value, but for the people who get it, it makes everyone a lot more powerful. And I mean that in a positive sense, it makes them a lot more productive and a lot more efficient. I think that that good leaders figure out how to do that, and that's important to do. Well, I wholeheartedly agree. So I'm curious about something. I keep coming back to it in my brain. So I'm going to ask in places like Israel, where everyone, at some point needs to go into the military, and goes into the military. And I understand why that happened. We don't do that here. How do you contrast, or what do you think about the contrast in those two methods of dealing with the military? Because then I asked that because you talked about the crisis, I'm not convinced that everyone should necessarily have to go in the military, but it's an interesting discussion to have.   Rob Richard ** 49:01 I kind of, I, you know, I like the way Korea does it. Korea has a societal conscription sort of program, right? So you can either join the military, you can be a paramedic, you can be a policeman. I don't necessarily think we need to go to that level, but I think there should be some general level of civic service, right? You have to have some level of commitment. And I think that not everyone, especially in our current society, is cut out to be in the army, to be in, you know, to be in the armed services, but there should be some level of civic conscription where people have to serve for maybe a year or two in somewhere. I really do believe in that. It might sound a little bit draconian libertarian, but I think it's something to look at. I think it would make people better humans. Because nowadays, like, there wasn't World War Two, there was a general understanding that we have a universal effort, that we're going forward as a nation. There was such a connection to the military service, and everyone chipped in, you know, everyone chipped in and all the time, and I don't think that really is the case. Everyone is going in their own direction. Shouldn't we're not going in a general direction. It's good for the country as a society, and without some sort of civic inscription, I don't know if that's possible people to truly understand what others go through, right? And so I agree. I think that we should have some sort of level of of civil civic service, not necessarily level of the draft, but right, not quite like how Israel does it, but   Michael Hingson ** 50:20 yeah, so, and I think that makes a lot of sense, and I think that also it's a great learning experience, yes, which is a part of what I think you're also suggesting, and I think that that makes a lot of sense, that that brings you into being a more well rounded individual as you go forward. And I think that it's important to do that, and we need to figure out some way to do that.   Rob Richard ** 50:46 No, I agree. I think that, you know, when you're in Israel, is a homogenous society, very similar. People have similar religions, similar takes. Our society, when you look at as a whole, is completely different than any other society in the world, as how different we are in the many cultures that we have in a collective approach to civil service, I think could help, I really do think could help something to unify us. Again, not quite to the 911 unification type, right, but somewhere where we can come together as society and say, Hey, we got a common purpose here. Let's go forward with it. You know, so   Michael Hingson ** 51:18 Well we, we were so unified after September 11, and I can point to specific political things that damaged that and took away from the unification and so unfortunate that that kind of thing occurred. And we have, there are other aspects. I mean, we also now have this technology where everyone has so much instantaneous access to so much information, some of which is real and some of which is false, but still the the fact is, we have access to things that we didn't before. And you mentioned World War Two, I collect old radio shows as a hobby, and I listen to many of the shows in the World War Two era, and listen to how all the actors, all the people on those shows, were part of the story that helped pull the country together, and everyone was committed. Yeah, there were challenges. Yeah, there were problems, but people really did come together for the most part, and worked because we knew it's what we needed to do, and that's the operative part. We knew what we needed to do. We needed to be unified, and if we weren't, that was a problem.   Rob Richard ** 52:36 Oh no, I agree. I think, though, there's a fine balance between unification and then a controlled narrative that takes people away from a independent free thought, right? One of the things we've gotten away from is independent free thought. There are two sides to everything. There's my side, your side, and a good collective would be great, but that you still have to have that, that approach to independent thought, right? And I also think something's missed about the military, if I could expound a little bit, is that many people in the military here are some of the world class cynics. You know, they're not necessarily these, hook, line and sinker, follow suit, type of folks. They're just the they're very aware of their situation and sort of what's going on. And they're very like, okay, is this really the deal here? You know, people are very skeptical. They're very they have a lot of free thought, a lot of independent thought. They're very politically engaged in what they think, and very go after things and have articulate points that that they clearly think of, as opposed to just like, Oh, we're all we all think the same. You know, that's a misconception about the military. We don't there are people of all different facets and walks of life and and think completely different on every issue under the sun, and that's important. So I think having a collective civic response and duty to things is great, but we start to keep our independent thought as a nation in a society.   Michael Hingson ** 53:53 I think the other part of that, though, is that we need to learn again, to be understanding of people who have a different position than we do, and we need to stop saying, Well, you're wrong, and because they think we're wrong, whoever they and we and you are. And the reality is it's it's more than just having the independent thinking ability and opportunity, but it's being able to talk about it and people who truly can, again, learn so much because you you learn to understand why people think the way they do sometimes or a lot of times. And that's important too.   Rob Richard ** 54:36 Yes, absolutely, I agree 100% so   Michael Hingson ** 54:40 logisticians are generally not part of when you watch movies and so on, they're not typically what's featured. What? Why is that? Or how do we get the logistics world a little bit more understood? And I know that that goes beyond the military, but you know, nevertheless, yeah.   Rob Richard ** 54:59 Yeah, well, so again, I think you're looking at what in this. This is to take nothing away from anyone. So when you look at most of the majority of TV shows and books, and rightfully so, I'll say rightfully so, so much of it is about special operations, yeah, frontline soldiers, what you would call, you know, in World War Two, there was a linear Battlefield, so there were two entities facing each other, face to face in a situation, but over the past 20 years, and even all going all the way back to Vietnam, they weren't linear battlefields. They were battlefields where all these support type soldiers, whether it's communicators or truck drivers, mechanics, even cooks and these other people, are combat veterans. They are facing combat. They have dangerous and arduous tales of heroics that need to be told often. You know, especially in particular in convoy operations throughout Afghanistan and Iraq. I think it's overlooked because it's well, it's not sexy, it's not what people want to see. It's not the conditioned thing of what people are supposed to see. But I think it can often be talked about in a humorous way, like we, I think you and I, we talked a little bit about mash, right? And that's about doctors, Army doctors who are support personnel and enablers. And there's a comedic approach to it. It's not all just serious, stoic, you know, movie sort of nonsense. It is a, it is a comedic approach to a real topic, and it covered it gracefully. You know, Hogan's Heroes, these sort of comedic shows that we all had, that we were elected, who understood, and that we love McHale's Navy again, another one. I think that logisticians and support folks are often overlooked because it's just not what is considered to be cool. But there are stories about war, about these brave and courageous things that people have done, and I've witnessed with my own eyes that I think is an interesting and fun story, not fun, but an interesting story that needs to be told so that legacy doesn't drift off into the wind, like the gun trucks in Vietnam, right? There was these things that were developed. A great documentary on Smithsonian about

While participating at the National Federation of the Blind National convention this year with my colleague and friend, Sheldon Lewis who also is a former guest here on Unstoppable Mindset, we had the opportunity to meet Amy SP Wilson. Amy is the founder and leader of the Safety Positive Foundation. Amy began losing her eyesight at the age of ten years old due to a condition known as Stargardt's. this disease can best be described as macular Degeneration in juveniles. If you want to know more about Stargardt's just listen into my conversation with Amy. Amy has always been quite interested in personal safety. She also has been quite a physical person starting with wrestling with her cousins to later becoming the first female wrestler at the Missouri School for the Blind to later becoming part of the inaugural women's Judo team of the United States Association of Blind Athletes. Amy went on to college where she obtained a Bachelor's degree in Psychology. After a time and some life challenges Amy will tell us about she decided to go back to college to obtain a second Bachelor's degree in Social Work. She decided to get this second degree because she wanted to help persons with disabilities in the United States. In 2023 Amy founded Safety Positive Foundation to teach blind persons about self defense. Her approach is by no means all about being physical. She will talk with us about self awareness and self advocacy, two aspects she feels must be part of the psyche of everyone who wishes to take charge of their own life. About the Guest: ael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well, hi everyone. I am your host, Mike hingson, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And the reason it's worded that way people still ask me why I say that. The reason it's worded that way is that when we talk to diversity people, they'll talk about race, gender, sexual orientation and so on, and they never talk about disabilities. So unfortunately, the ship has mostly sailed when it comes to including disabilities in diversity, no matter what they say. So we won't let them do that with inclusion, which means it's inclusion diversity and the unexpected. And today we get to deal with a lot of all of that. The unexpected is anything that doesn't have anything to do with inclusion or diversity. But today, we do get to talk about inclusion a lot in some esoteric and maybe not so esoteric ways. Our guest today is Amy SP Wilson, and I just discovered, as Amy showed me, if you were to ask your smart speaker, like my Amazon Echo, who is Amy SP Wilson, it will tell you that she is the CEO of the positive safety positive foundation. We're going to talk more about that, so we'll get there anyway. Amy, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Wonderful.   Amy SP Wilson ** 02:45 Thank you for having me. It's an honor and a privilege, and   Michael Hingson ** 02:49 it's nice to know that the echo knows your name.   Amy SP Wilson ** 02:53 Yeah, I'm still kind of flabbergasted that that's a thing, but definitely gives you some street cred, I guess.   Michael Hingson ** 03:02 Yeah, it probably means that there, there aren't, well, there certainly aren't very many. Amy SP Wilson, so that works, yes, well, why don't we start the way I kind of really love to. Why don't you tell us, sort of about the early Amy growing up and some of that sort of stuff.   Amy SP Wilson ** 03:21 So in my younger years, I was born and raised in the state of Missouri, and have what I consider a biker family. We did a lot of traveling on motorcycles. I was riding my own dirt bike at the age of four, and so really tomboy at at heart, but loved, you know, wrestling and fighting with the cousins. And at the age of 10 is when I was diagnosed with star guards, and that put me on a different path, because at the age of 10, my dream was to be a motorcycle mechanic and join the Navy. And at the time, I did not have any expectations that a blind person could do either. So it really put me on a different trajectory of what I thought my life was going to going to be like, and I, of course, went on with school and and that sort of business, but I loved wrestling so much that I became the Missouri School for the blinds First Lady wrestler. And that led me into being part of the United States Association of Blind Athletes, where I was on the first women's judo team that they had, and so just got real passionate about personal safety and different ways. But due to my eye condition, I couldn't take hits to the head, and so there went my martial arts career this. I'll just say, or so I thought, and led me into going to college and get my my first bachelor's degree in psychology and and so on. But I I have people tell me that apparently I have been pioneering new things my whole life. And when I have to talk about myself and talk about I was the first to do this and first to do that, yeah, it's a very sobering reminder of those steps that I've make it in my life. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 05:35 Reading your bio, it says that because of star guard, you weren't at some at one point, able to continue kind of dealing with martial arts. What did star guard specifically have to do with that?   Amy SP Wilson ** 05:47 So it it affects my retina, and I noticed the more hits that I was taking to the head and, you know, being thrown I was having more cloudy spots in my vision, and when I stopped doing those things, it, it, you know, significantly reduced the amount of things I wasn't able to to see. And so that's, that's how that played into that well,   Michael Hingson ** 06:19 tell me a little bit about what star guards is. I'm not sure that everyone listening or watching will be familiar with   Amy SP Wilson ** 06:26 it, correct? Yes. So star guards is a juvenile form of macular degeneration. So you hear of, you know, your grandparents, or you know, maybe you're a person of experience, as I like to say, in your in your later years. And you know, hear about people getting macular degeneration. I essentially just got macular degeneration at the the age of 10. So little bit of a flip. And of course, again, being a first, I was the first person in my family to have any kind of blindness, low vision, and so it was. It really shook everything   Michael Hingson ** 07:06 is star guards, a genetic kind of situation.   Amy SP Wilson ** 07:12 So I learned that the only way that a person can get star guards is essentially by your parents getting together. It's not a medication defect, which is what they originally told my mother. So she carried a lot of guilt with that. And when I went to get seek a different doctor, he had me do some I guess genetic counseling is what they called it, because I had concerns of my son having it. And they were like, no, no, it doesn't work. And they explained it. I was like, well, that had been helpful in my younger   Michael Hingson ** 07:50 just sort of the right combination of things getting together that brings it on. Exactly. Yeah. Now, where do you live today? I live in the great Show Me State. Ah, so you're still in Missouri? Yes, I've   Amy SP Wilson ** 08:05 moved to a couple other states. I spent a year in Alaska, where my son was born. I lived in Indiana for a little bit. I pass on that, and fortunately, I was able to come back to to Missouri.   Michael Hingson ** 08:20 So we're in Missouri. Are you, uh, close   Amy SP Wilson ** 08:23 to Kansas City area? Okay, about about in that area, but I like to, I like it because I can take the train back and forth between Kansas City and St Louis. So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 08:34 well, trains are very useful things to have around. I when I lived on the East Coast, would use the train a lot. And of course, going from New Jersey into New York, we had New Jersey Transit and other things that we had a lot of train stuff. But out here, where I live now, there is a train that stops here once, at 430 in the morning. If I want to go to San Francisco, I'm not going to do that on the train, I don't think, because you actually have to go to Los Angeles and then get another train to go to San Francisco, because the train that comes from Los Angeles stops here, and then, I guess, goes east. So, oh, well, one of these days, maybe there'll be more trains and more mass transit, and that'll be a good thing. Exactly.   Amy SP Wilson ** 09:19 I know in Europe, trains are used very heavily, and people that come over here are constantly surprised that we don't have more sufficient trains. And so hopefully, like you said, with time we'll we'll get some more transportation going. There's   Michael Hingson ** 09:36 a big argument and a brouhaha going on out here right now because Los Angeles wants to create a gondola system to go from downtown LA the train station to Dodger Stadium and stop along the way. And there are people who are saying, no, no. Because you're not going to get that many people on it, it's just not going to be worth the cost. So it'll be interesting to see how that all shakes out. I do agree that if you're going to do that, you have to have a lot of people using it, and you have to be able to transport a lot of people. So it will be interesting to see how that works out.   Amy SP Wilson ** 10:22 I can very much agree with that.   Michael Hingson ** 10:25 Oh, life goes on, right? That it does. So you went to, yeah, go ahead. I   Amy SP Wilson ** 10:32 said. We've heard the same debate here in Missouri about different, you know, options for trains. So, yeah, it's always an ongoing conversation.   Michael Hingson ** 10:39 When we first moved to New Jersey, we learned that with the Americans with Disabilities Act, they were finally catching up, if you will, to doing something. And the something where we lived in Westfield was to make the train station accessible and access to the train to be accessible. And what that meant was that they actually had to build a platform and ramps up to the platform so that a person in a chair, for example, like my wife, could transfer straight across and roll onto the train. Because before the platform was raised, the trains have these big, huge, high steps built into them. Each step is like 18 inches tall and you've got three steps to go into the train. Well, you're not going to really do that in a wheelchair. And there was major opposition from people in Westfield to putting in the ramps, putting in the platforms, because they said, well, but this is going to slow us down if we have to go up the ramps and can't just run to the train and jump on the train. Why don't you just have somebody at every station who will lift people in wheelchairs onto trains? Yeah, that's gonna really work, right?   Amy SP Wilson ** 11:50 Yeah, that's not, not feasible,   Michael Hingson ** 11:54 no. And it didn't, and the argument didn't hold, fortunately, and the the platforms were built and, and, and the reality is it didn't jeopardize anybody, other than maybe make them arrive 30 seconds earlier, rather than being so lazy. But, ah, the arguments that people have. But it'll be interesting to see how the train thing works out, because they do need to have more mass transit out   Amy SP Wilson ** 12:18 here. Absolutely, 100%   Michael Hingson ** 12:21 so you went off to college, and what did you do in college,   Amy SP Wilson ** 12:27 college stuff, but because I was unfamiliar with how to really maximize your college experience. I didn't really, you know, have a plan. Once I got done with college, all I knew was I needed to go to college. Go to college, yeah, and, you know, because that's, that's what's going to make your life better. Okay, I can, I can follow that plan. But what's the plan after, like, nobody, nobody had that. They just knew, you know, go to college. Oh, okay. And so I tried to get some, some different jobs, unsuccessfully. And then I ended up getting married and moving to Alaska, and so did some some different jobs up there. And through my experience of being married during that time, I also shared with people that I'm a domestic violence survivor, and it's one of the things that I really wish the disabled community was having more conversations about this, because there I know that I'm I'm not alone, and when I share it, I always have people come forward and Me too, me too. And I'm like, Yes, like, we, can we, you know, support one another. And fortunately, I was only in that marriage for for three years and and got out of it. Spent a couple more years in Indiana, but then when I moved back to Missouri, I learned about some blindness consumer organizations and and started getting involved with those. I also, at the same time, heard, heard about a self defense program for the blind. And I'm like, wait a minute, there's something you know that that works for us. So I jumped on it, became an instructor, became very involved in the that particular organization. And due to some some different circumstances, realized that that was not a healthy environment, and spent probably a year not doing that. But then had some people contact me to get another self defense program going, and I'm like, All right, let's do it. So yeah, that's a. Um, but I've, I've taken in that time of me teaching self defense, I also worked with my local dojo and would help with my son's classes. So I've definitely got the personal safety self defense experience down at this point, I feel like   Michael Hingson ** 15:24 so. So in other words, maybe if there were violent situation today, you could turn the tables and and be the one to beat up the other guy.   Amy SP Wilson ** 15:33 So that's you know, because I will share that, that that is you. That is a common thought.   Michael Hingson ** 15:43 I understand, yes,   Amy SP Wilson ** 15:46 however, in june 2019 I experienced sexual assault by somebody. And it's really what got me to tell people that personal safety you need to be proactive about it, especially in the disabled space. It is so very vital in that realm, yeah, but   Michael Hingson ** 16:11 yeah, there's only so much you can do. And you're right. It's, it's a matter of being, as you say, personally safe. And you know, it's, it is so important, and I think so many people, especially I think a lot of blind people I know about aren't as aware of their surroundings as they need to be, even just in in walking, even if it's not a a safety issue, that is where you're endangered from another person, but just being aware of your surroundings and being able to travel. I remember living in Boston and at the time, and I don't know if it's still the same or not today, but Boston or Massachusetts, had the highest accident rate per capita in the country, and this was back in the late 1970s into the early 1980s and I knew it, and it, it was just one of those factoids, if you will, that helped me stay really aware. So whenever I cross the street, I really made sure that the traffic was going the way I wanted to go, and I listened extremely carefully to what the traffic was doing around me, because any moment a car could come whizzing around a corner, nobody else would have seen it, and if I weren't listening for it, I might not have been able to judge appropriately whether it was safe to go or how fast I had to go to get across the street. So the reality is that we really do need to be situationally aware. And I think it's not just true for people who happen to be blind, but but it is especially true that we need to work on that and be aware of our surroundings   Amy SP Wilson ** 18:01 100% 100% that that is like, one of the first things we started offering right out the gate when it came to safety positive, is having discussions about personal safety topics, because it makes you more situationally aware. I know that. You know now that I have the mindset of being proactive about my personal safety, I am so keyed up on situational awareness that I sometimes freak out people, because I'm like, pay attention. Over there, pay attention. They're like, how? And I'm like, well, the more you learn about safety education, anything in the personal safety realm, it just helps you to become more situationally where, so you respond faster. You don't have to sit there and go, Well, what was that that I learned? No, no, that's not what we we want you to have. We want you to be, you know, kind of studying up on it so much that it becomes second nature for you?   Michael Hingson ** 19:00 Yeah, all too often we we learn something, and then we just have we, we sort of memorize the lesson. And we don't memorize what it is we really need to do. It isn't what, what did I learn? You need to get to the point where it's second nature, where it's just part of you, whether it's situational awareness or or a lot of things, even good musicians,   19:24 yes, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 19:26 do what they do because they've it's become second nature, yes.   Amy SP Wilson ** 19:30 And we, we talk about that, you know, it's, it's a journey you're not going to jump from, you know, being a beginner, you know, car guitar player, kind of like your manual musician, to being able to play on a, you know, stage with 5000 people overnight, it does not, you know, it is a process. And so, you know, giving, tell, you know, reminding people to give themselves grace. And it is a work in progress. So you know, you there's going to be deja mess. Up, but that's okay, you know, be do better tomorrow, on, on all those different situations. The   Michael Hingson ** 20:07 more you practice it, though, and the more you work on looking at lessons and looking at the things that you do and practice making them second nature, the easier it becomes. But it is a muscle the mind that you have to develop.   Amy SP Wilson ** 20:25 Yes, we, we basically tell people your, you know, your most important tool is your mind. So many people want that quick fix of having the pepper spray or, you know, this side of the other, and it's like, no, no, your mind is your most important, you know, tool in your arsenal, so take, take care of it. It's your, it's your biggest investment in life, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 20:48 and it's and it's the most important one, and it will do so much more for you. But the more you truly use it, the easier it becomes to use. But you've got to make that effort to make that happen, yes, so you got through college, you got, I think, what a degree in psychology, as I recall. And you said you went and worked on various jobs, and I gather nothing really struck a nerve.   Amy SP Wilson ** 21:15 No, you know, I, I actually went back to school and got a second bachelor's degree in social work because I knew I wanted to work with the disabled community, and so I of course, was advocating in my own classes for disability rights and driving my fellow students crazy. But I'm like, we're in social work, and we're not learning about disabilities. This is madness. You're going to be, you know, working with at least, you know, half the people have some sort of disability in some fashion, and we're not even having a conversation about it. So, but I guess I actually, before I got real involved with personal safety here, more recently, in the last couple years, I actually was a Mary Kay consultant for a while, and had had some fun with that. And it's a great, great company. They're they're real supportive. They call it kind of the pink bubble. But I learned a lot about marketing and sales through that. So I constantly am telling my team, I'm like, Yeah, that's a Mary Kay thing. That's America. But they've been around for so many years. There's obviously, like, I said, a method to their madness.   Michael Hingson ** 22:31 They kind of know what they're doing, yeah,   Amy SP Wilson ** 22:34 yeah, yeah. They've, they've got systems down. So yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 22:37 So when did you get your social work, bachelor's degree. When did you graduate with that 2016 Okay, so that was eight years ago, and then you you did other things and so on. But eventually, what, what caused you finally to form safety positive foundation.   Amy SP Wilson ** 22:58 I I essentially got madder than a hatter because we weren't offering choices. It was just this one self defense program, this one self defense program. And I'm like, Well, what about teaching people to advocate for themselves, or having discussions or this or that? Like and I kept getting shot down time and time again from from the leadership in those organizations, and I and I actually had a couple people who pulled me aside and really strongly encouraged me to start my own non for profit. And I was like, Excuse me. Like me be the leader. Uh, I don't, I don't. I don't know how I feel about this, um, but luckily they, you know, they convinced me. Had other people convinced me. And I just, it really is a big passion of mine to just make sure that the blind community has as many personal safety choices as everybody else does, because historically, we have not. So   Michael Hingson ** 24:05 you're saying some of the major consumer organizations kind of discouraged it at first. I   Amy SP Wilson ** 24:14 they were from elsewhere. Was from elsewhere. I wouldn't say some of them, you know, I'm not going to throw no shade on the major groups,   24:21 no, no, no.   Amy SP Wilson ** 24:22 But it was the companies that were teaching self defense got really only focused on just, you know, hands on self defense. And I'm like, and it was either, you know, release or break body parts. And I'm like, not everybody's comfortable breaking body parts like we need some choices. We need to teach people to advocate for themselves, to speak up. That is the like. The bigger thing that I have found is people not understanding the power of of their words and their language to, you know, get themselves out of situation. And it's usually a freeze response, and I know because I was personally guilty of that for many years. And so yeah, I'm I'm thrilled that I don't struggle with that nowhere near as much as I used to, but I can recognize that it is a huge need within our community.   Michael Hingson ** 25:20 So when did you actually form the foundation?   Amy SP Wilson ** 25:25 March 3, 2023 was when we officially launched safety positive foundation.   Michael Hingson ** 25:31 So it's fairly new. Yes, well, a year and about a year and a half old.   Amy SP Wilson ** 25:39 Yep, yep, we're still baby.   Michael Hingson ** 25:43 That's okay. Do you find that that men and women are interested in personal safety and so on, or is it just women or just men? Or what we   Amy SP Wilson ** 25:54 have both? I'd say at our events, it's half and half, I get more men volunteering to to work behind the scenes on stuff, because personal safety is primarily a male dominated profession, which makes me kind of a odd woman out. But you know, we are not for profits. I'll take the help wherever I can get.   Michael Hingson ** 26:17 Sure, well, even if you were for profit, it would make sense to do that. But yeah, I hear you, yes, yeah. So exactly, what does the safety positive foundation do?   Amy SP Wilson ** 26:32 So we offer, again, a variety of choices for personal safety. We have what we call our safety positive guide that gives our blind community, 24/7, access to training and resources. And so that's a resource all by itself, because we put in there motivational information resources, asking discussion questions. But then we also have chapters in our guide to where people can take our courses, where they can go from ProAct or from reactive to proactive on their personal safety. We also have in that guide links to what we call our weekly tea times, and that's probably one of our most popular services, and that's where we're having the space for discussions on personal safety. Each month we do a different topic, and we have also added verbal craft, which is a self advocacy and assertiveness communication training. And we've actually had that training from the very beginning, because, again, I knew, in my experience, that people really needed to learn that that advocating piece, like we're told to advocate, but never given a formula. And we finally have a formula with with verbal craft. So it makes me very excited. And then in just this year, when we started getting into our second year, we shifted away from focusing on the psychological safety to that physical safety aspect, and I became the first blind woman pepper spray instructor with saber so that was exciting. And then we created our own hands on self defense program that focuses on the fundamentals of self defense. We created this course because we knew people needed some pieces. So if they wanted to go take a, you know, martial arts class on a consistent basis, or if they wanted to go take that self defense class, they would have some language to talk with the instructors. And this is how you can assist me. And so, yeah, those, those are pretty much what we offer, but, and we're partnering with with other companies organizations to bring in more resources and training for our community. So like I said, it's only been a year and a half, but yeah, we're bringing it when it comes to the choices. Tell   Michael Hingson ** 29:13 me more about verbal craft, what, what that is all about, or how does that work? So   Amy SP Wilson ** 29:19 at the core, verbal craft was developed as a crisis de escalation communication training, and of course, for the purposes of the blind community, we realized that it also helps with teaching you self advocacy and assertiveness in your communication. So you know, say, somebody comes up and, you know, grabs your arm trying to assist you. Verbal craft has a, you know, we we work with you to develop to personalize your own formula. We also have a verbal craft club where people can come in and practice. This maybe a scenario and and get better at at their skills. I know for me when I first, because I did not even know a verbal craft again, I went to hearing about all the you know, need to advocate for yourself, and I'm like, How do I do that. But it was in November of 2022, that I I finally was able to take verbal craft. And since then, I have, I've discovered that I am even you know better at it. I don't, I don't freeze or fawn as much. And when people are trying to help me, or when people are trying to cross my my boundaries in those different ways.   Michael Hingson ** 30:48 I remember many times being in New York City or in other large cities, but New York especially, wanting to cross the street and go a particular way, waiting for the traffic flow to be going the way I wanted, and making sure that it's going the way I wanted, somebody will come up and grab me. Oh, let me. Let me help you. And of course, the problem is they don't even know for sure which way I want to go correct, which really makes life fun. And so they'll grab me and I go, No, hold on a minute. First of all, I'm really good. Do you know why I'm just standing here? No, you're, you're, obviously, you need help. No, let me explain Ricky, you know, but it is so unfortunate that people make these assumptions. And it happens all too often. It goes back to the basic view of of blindness that that people have, which is that we really don't know what we're doing and we can't really do it ourselves, that you need to have eyesight to do it, which is why earlier this year, at the National Federation of the Blind convention, I crafted the resolution that was adopted that says we need to stop using the term visually impaired and go to blind and low vision. And I mean, there are other terms, but the real issue is to get rid of the concept of impaired, which is what the professionals brought to the field many years ago, which was such a disservice.   Amy SP Wilson ** 32:18 Yeah, I can, I can agree, the word impaired is not the greatest term we want to be be using in that realm. And yeah, in in all my teaching of of self defense, the people coming up and grabbing is the number one frustration that that we deal with as a as a blind community, and it's the reason that people want to learn self defense, because they want to be able to figure out, how do I get myself out of this situation? And that's where you know verbal craft is that that first step of, if you can talk them down, that's that's the ideal situation. And then, of course, we're going to be bringing more choices of they don't want to do that. That's okay. We got some other skills. Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 33:05 Well, and it's important to really learn to use all the skills that we have available, which is, of course, something that gets back to the whole issue of using your mind. And that's just something that all too often, well, if I were really abusive, I'd say that's something that every politician should learn to do, is use their mind, but they haven't learned that yet. So that's another story. But, oh, that was That was mean, but, but the reality is that that we need to learn to listen better than we do.   Amy SP Wilson ** 33:40 Well, I mean, the common thing is you have two ears and one mouth, because you're supposed to do twice as much listening, and that also plays a lot into the situational awareness is, you know, sometimes you have to just stop talking so you can pay attention to what, what is going on on around you, right? I know, like with my friends and my team. They know if I'm stopped talking, they need to start paying attention themselves, because I don't usually stop mid sentence. I'm like, wait a minute, what? You know, I start kind of perking my ears and, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've got, we've created different code words and stuff like that to help, you know, everybody be on the same page, to support people in that, that journey too   Michael Hingson ** 34:21 cool. Well, it's important. So what are the basic core values, the the core things that go into safety, positive foundation and that kind of guide what you do.   Amy SP Wilson ** 34:33 So we have five core values. One is safety, of course, um, innovation, because we are, I've been told numerous times we are pioneering new paths with what we're we're bringing in, so that's and we're always looking for other other things that the community needs to bring in as well. We also have potential as one of them, because. Do believe in the potential of of people in general, and then we also have agency because we want we strongly believe in people having choices when it comes to their personal safety and authenticity. Is our last one, and this one, it it took a little bit to get everybody on board, because I am very authentic myself. And so they were like, we're not talking about you. And I'm like, I know that like but you know, people feel safer when they can be them, their authentic selves, and that's what we want to support, is you know you getting comfortable with you and knowing that you have those you know, choices, potential and and those things. So we, we strongly believe in our core values   Michael Hingson ** 35:55 and and having the ability, or learning to have the ability to analyze who you are, what you do, what you're doing, and when necessary, make changes or to reaffirm that what you do is a good thing, whatever it is.   Amy SP Wilson ** 36:11 Yes, yeah. So, you know, sometimes people need that permission to, you know, change their mind or be on the path that they're they're being on on our on our tea times. I am very well known for telling people, does anybody have questions, comments, concerns or emotional outburst? And because I want to give people that space to you know they need to just yell it out. Yell it out. We're here to support you. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 36:40 sometimes that's important and necessary to do absolutely. Why is the foundation called safety positive Foundation?   Amy SP Wilson ** 36:50 We created that name. And actually I created that name because I got tired of the fear mongering that was going on with the self defense organizations and programs that already existed in the blind community. In fact, I had been told one time that I needed to be more negative and in pitching, you know, and trying to scare people. And I'm like, I refuse. I will not do that. Our community is already scared enough. And No way am I, you know, going to hammer home all the the statistics and stuff like that, people, people already have fear. And so in that I played around with words, of course, I have SP in the middle of my my name. And so I was like, Well, you know, safety positive, like, we're all about safety. We want to be positive. And then one of my board members was like, well, we need to add, you know, foundation, because, you know, we're building a foundation here. And I'm like, there it is, safety, positive Foundation was born just based off of the collection of all that. There   Michael Hingson ** 38:14 you go. And and it works. How is it different from mother, self defense and similar kinds of organizations. Because I'm I'm sure that you feel that it is definitely different. Yes,   Amy SP Wilson ** 38:29 yes, we have created it different from the beginning. Because when we launched, we focused on psychological safety, it people would ask me, well, where's the hands on? I'm like, Nope, we're not, we're not doing it yet, because psychological safety needs to be that first step on your on your journey, especially if you have a lot of fear when it when it comes to personal safety. So that was the the mindset that we intentionally chose. The other thing that I would say that probably differentiates us is, of course, the choices and that as of right now, we don't have it to where you can sign up, pay a bunch of money and become an instructor in our program we're not interested in making making money off of that. We are interested in bringing people in as instructors at some point, and we've talked about doing that next year, but we want to be very mindful of how that approach works, because people have gotten trained in other programs, and then they go off and do their own thing, and we're like no, because we want to make sure that the curriculum you were teaching is safety, positive focus. We don't want people running off and trying to fear monger like they had been taught. Before. So that's that's our method to our madness.   Michael Hingson ** 40:05 Well, I may not know that the whole idea of fear is a subject that is near and dear to me, because recently, I published a new book called Live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave while becoming adversity and moving forward in faith. And the whole idea behind the book is to get people to understand that they can learn to control fear and that you don't need to have fear forced on you. And the reality is that all the negative aspects of fear that you've been talking about is what promotes fear. And I picked on politicians before, but that's what they do. They promote fear to a very large degree themselves, and promoting all this fear just makes people negative. They make it makes people be mistrustful. And the fact of the matter is that if we really learn to understand fear, which also is involved in developing the mind, as we've been talking about. But if we really focus on understanding fear, what we learn is that we can control fear, and that fear can be a very powerful tool to help us. So it isn't about not being afraid, it's about using that fear to focus and not let it, as I would say, blind or overwhelm you.   Amy SP Wilson ** 41:24 Yes, again, 100% agreeing with you on that, the more that you can. I'd say they're, they're, say, lean into the fear and make it your friend that you know that that helps so much. It's also part of that muscle memory of going, Okay, I don't need to be fearful in this situation. And we actually talk about that in our verbal craft training, how the brain, your brain state works when you know something happens to you, and how you can move through that   Michael Hingson ** 42:04 well, and that's exactly right. The issue is moving through it. I mean, just something happens. I mean, I was in the World Trade Center on September 11, and something happened. Right? So there's a lot to be afraid of, but if you prepare and learn to control your own mind, then that fear becomes a very powerful tool to help you focus and learning to listen to that inner voice is one of the most important things that we can ever do in our lives.   Amy SP Wilson ** 42:38 Yes, I I've actually used my personal safety training to help me to heal from some of my past traumas. And, you know, even to the point where practicing certain techniques that had been, you know, done on me to how do I get out of this? And that really, you know, at the, you know, the first few times, oh, yeah, anxiety was real high. And sure, the more you lean into it, the more you work through it, it can be helpful. The unfortunate part is, for some situations, like what you went through in 911 Ain't nobody preparing you for that   Michael Hingson ** 43:17 well, but not directly, but what you learn? But what what you learn? So like with me in September 11, I learned all about emergency evacuations. I learned all about where things were in the World Trade Center. And I learned just and I mentioned being in Boston and dealing with unexpected street crossings with cars coming, and all that you learn how to deal with surprise, yeah, and so it wasn't like there was anything magically brand new at the World Trade Center. So all of the skills, all of the life preparation for for me over the previous 51 years. Ooh, that gives away my age, but all that life preparation made it possible to learn to and actually control fear, so that I was able to use it in a constructive way, which is what the whole point is.   Amy SP Wilson ** 44:17 Yes, and that's why we, I think we've mentioned, like, the more you can learn, the more those things won't surprise you, and you're going to be ready to handle when life's throwing you curve balls,   Michael Hingson ** 44:30 right? And life tends to have a habit of doing that.   Amy SP Wilson ** 44:34 Yeah, universe has since humor that's pretty it does have a sense   Michael Hingson ** 44:39 of humor, but when it's throwing the curve balls, you can learn to hit those curve balls. So it's okay, yes, it's not a it's not a bad thing. How is the community reacting to safety, positive foundation and what you're doing and so on?   Amy SP Wilson ** 44:56 Overwhelming happiness in. Anytime I tell people we are here to offer choices, I've heard statements like, Finally, thank goodness. And I know from our trainings that that we offer it's been completely game changing for for people who went through our trainings, they they feel way more safe. We actually had one of our community people that flat out told me, if it was not for safety positive foundation, I would not have went to the National Federation of the Blind convention, because they just didn't feel like they were prepared. And I think it was a combination of learning things, and then, of course, us being there to help support them if something happened. But yeah, that was, I was floored when I heard that statement. I was like, do what that was. That was us. So we're bringing people out of their houses.   Michael Hingson ** 45:55 Well, things happen at conventions, and unfortunately, I don't know of any convention where things of one sort or another don't happen to one degree or another. So it is a matter of being prepared, but it's also a matter of monitoring yourself and knowing what you're going to allow yourself to get into and not get into to a degree as well. Yes,   Amy SP Wilson ** 46:17 absolutely. And like before we went, we had a safety briefing for our community to give them the rundown, and it was so overwhelming. I'm like, okay, apparently we're going to keep doing this because they they just they felt more prepared and safe for for those different things, and knew if something did happen, what policies procedures to follow, or who to who to be able to contact? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 46:44 and the National Federation has become a little bit more aware, and yes, they have, has helped in that process, which is, which is also a good thing.   Amy SP Wilson ** 46:56 Yes, I would very much agree with that as well. But,   Michael Hingson ** 47:00 but people do need to really take responsibility for themselves and their own actions, and so doing what you do clearly helps, I would think so. So, what role do partnerships play in what you do, and how is that affecting everything?   Amy SP Wilson ** 47:20 So when we with our partners, we bring in different people for different reasons, but essentially, it's to make sure our community has more resources for their personal safety. For example, we have partnered with Ali slaughter, who teaches yoga that you know, yoga can be very beneficial in so many ways. We also have partnered with NaVi lens to start, start working with them, because they are a company that offers these special cute like their specialized QR codes, but it can help you to navigate different areas. But not only that, you can create your own it's not like you got to wait for the company to do it. So you can label things around your house, where it'll be able to you know which remote or which seasoning. And the part I really like is it does it in multiple different languages, so it's not just a one and done deal. And then we've also partnered. Our most recent partner is Penny forward, and they teach financial literacy for the blind. And I'm like, financial safety, it is a thing like we seems like a very natural partnership here. So, yeah, yeah, we're, again, we partner with with people that are interested and helping the blind community become more safe.   Michael Hingson ** 48:47 Do you just work with the blind community, or do sighted or any persons without traditional disabilities ever become involved and become students and so on?   Amy SP Wilson ** 48:58 So we actually, we've had some sighted people attend our trainings and and events, and we are working behind the scenes to develop some different trainings for sighted individuals so they can communicate and interact with the blind community in a safe fashion, or just the disabled community, but there's, there's so much information, you know, out there, I feel like a lot of sighted people kind of don't know where to go, how to how to do stuff, and so we wanted to build that bridge of communication between the sighted or the non disabled world and the disabled community. I'd also like to note that, you know blind people typically, blindness is not their only concern. You know, sometimes people have mental health struggles. You. People or other types of disabilities. So we do work with other disabilities as as a result, we're not we, because we're a not for profit and we're new. We got to sort of niche down to the blind community, but we are happy to serve the disabled community as well, because from what I'm learning all disabilities lack personal safety choices.   Michael Hingson ** 50:27 They do or think they do, or probably both, which is, which is, it amounts to the same thing. Yes, we met, certainly through the NFB convention. Then also, I know that Sheldon Lewis from accessibe has reached out to you guys and, and I don't know   Amy SP Wilson ** 50:45 that's you know, you made me forget about the I've my apologies to accessibe, but yes, they are also one of our newest partners, making, yeah, making our website accessible we're happy to share With our other friends and stuff like, yeah, I, I love Sheldon from from access to be. He's one of my new friends, whether he wants it or not, but yeah, it's, it's pleasure that we're, we're also working with access to be as well.   Michael Hingson ** 51:18 That's pretty cool. I haven't been to the site and looked at it yet. I should really go visit the website. But because I've been now with accessibe for, oh, three and a half years, it'll be four years in January. So having a lot of fun, and again, I like the philosophy that it deals with a variety of different kinds of disabilities. And you're right. The fact is that whether whether we bring it upon ourselves or it's real, and it's probably both, we end up not having a lot of choices that we should have. But I think that that's what we need to do, as you point out, is to learn to advocate for ourselves, to bring those choices back into our lives.   Amy SP Wilson ** 52:06 Yes, you know, when I was talking with Sheldon from accessibe about us partnering with them, I said, Absolutely, because not only will it ensure our website's accessible, but I'm happy to tell people about it, because when blind people cannot navigate a website, it, it plays a big role into their psychological safety. And I mean, I, I'm a Mental Health First Aid person, you know, certified person, and I my joke was I needed Mental Health First Aid training to go through the training like it stressed me out, because it was so inaccessible, and I had to have people continuously helping me. And I actually had to take the course twice because of the lack of accessibility that that first go around and had to have people help me and stuff. And I'm like, This is crazy, like, we definitely need to to promote that more. And I'm so glad that they're just, you know, willing to work with with non for profits that are serving the disabled space like that, that that is going to be game changing for so many people and help them to feel more psychologically safe in going to those websites, they're not going to get stressed out and figuring out, how do I navigate this? Nope. Accessibe has got you so,   Michael Hingson ** 53:31 you know, here's a question, and I've asked a number of people this, but I'm curious to hear your answer. You mentioned earlier that we're not really involved in a lot of the conversations, whether it be about self defense, whether it be about personal safety and so on. Why is it that that blind or in general, persons with disabilities aren't involved in the conversations?   Amy SP Wilson ** 53:55 That is a great question. And I think that for some topics, it goes back to fear of being vulnerable in sharing what, what you're afraid of, at least for for personal safety. For some topics, they're they're hot topics, we discuss weapons and safety positive foundation and tell people, if that's a choice you want, we're happy to have the conversation. But people think that talking about weapons means that people are going to start buying firearms and getting involved with it, or bad things can happen, and that's where I go back to the if we're having a conversation about it, you can ask your questions and not have that fear wrapped around those particular topics, but that would be my personal answer,   Michael Hingson ** 54:56 yeah, I think all too often, suddenly. Weapons are the easy answer, yes, but they're not, no, they're not at all. But that's what people think. And they think that's going to take care of all of their fears. And it just doesn't work that way,   Amy SP Wilson ** 55:11 because often and it's statistically backed up, you know, oftentimes, those things will get turned on you, especially if you're not doing ongoing practice, and that's part of that proactive philosophy we talk about in safety positive is if you're choosing to use any kind of tool or device, you better be practicing with it at least once a month, minimum. And depending on the tool we're recommending even stronger practicing. But you you know, you can't just buy a pepper spray, drop it in your purse and you're good. It's like, no, because what happens when they do come to grab you? You're going to be finagling and but yeah, and then   Michael Hingson ** 55:59 you aim it the wrong way because you're not used to it. Yep, exactly. And it's and it's so important that, well, again, it goes back to like what we talked about before, with the mind, which is the most important tool that we have. And if we don't develop that tool by constant, and I believe it has to be constant use and constant us teaching ourselves we're not going to improve with it.   Amy SP Wilson ** 56:28 Exactly you. I mean, we are blessed right now that we have as much technology at at our fingertips to be able to phone a friend or use that app to help us cross the street, whatever the case might be, but technology fails, and so you can't say that this is going to be my, my backup for for everything, or for one of the things that I've learned is you Can't take your pepper spray through, you know, TSA. And there's certain things that, no, no, no, TSA, don't like it. So if you get too used to one kind of tool, it gets taken well, then what do you do? You have to have your own, your own mind to go, okay, I can handle this without all the fancy gizmos and gadgets.   Michael Hingson ** 57:18 Yeah. And, and TSA does what it does generally, for pretty good reasons. Yes,   Amy SP Wilson ** 57:25 yes, yeah, I understand their method to the madness. Yeah, it's still frustrating. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 57:30 I know it is. You come all prepared, and then they take it away from you when, yeah, yeah. So of course, the the answer to that is you've got to put it somewhere in a bag where it's not reachable while you're on the flight. But that's another story   Amy SP Wilson ** 57:48 conversation for another day. Not that I'm talking about a short list that they will things that will get through TSA, but   Michael Hingson ** 57:55 well, how? Let me ask this. Then I think a relevant question, what are the future goals for safety positive Foundation?   Amy SP Wilson ** 58:05 We want to be the safety institution for the mind community, and so that's why we're we're very interested in bringing on more choices for trainings and working with different partners. So you know, when people think of personal safety in the blind community, their first thought is safety positive Foundation,   Michael Hingson ** 58:35 and that's pretty important to be able to do for you what's been the most rewarding experience you've had with safety positive foundation,   Amy SP Wilson ** 58:46 I would have to say it's watching the community grow as individuals like I said, you know, the one person that said, you know, if It wasn't for safety positive, I and I've heard, you know, other people telling me that they they feel safer and just learning different stuff, and that that is the the paycheck for me when I know we're we're making a difference in in people's lives, sometimes it makes me want to cry. I get, you know, so overwhelmed, but I I essentially do not want people to go through what I've went through in my life. And so the more that we can reach people and offer those resources and trainings that again, that that's what's going to do it for me,   Michael Hingson ** 59:46 so especially for blind people. But in general, what would be the message that you would most like for the community to hear from you regarding safety and safety positive foundation? Yeah.   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:00:00 When it comes to, I guess, sharing with the sighted community, be aware I'm teaching them that no is a complete sentence, and they don't gotta give you their backstory of why they don't want to accept your help, and if somebody doesn't want to take your assistance. Don't take it personal. That you know, there's so many people who do take it personal. When you tell them, No, I've got this. It's not about you. It's about people having the dignity and respect for themselves to sometimes do things on their own, or talk to you about how maybe you can assist them in a in a in a different manner, but yeah, just just don't take it personal. And no, you're also probably going to mess up a time or two. You're not You're not always going to get it perfect, because I know me as a person in the community, I mess it up sometimes.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:01 You know, there's a lot of value in getting lost. And I, I worked in the World Trade Center a lot to get lost, because when you get lost, then you gotta figure out, how did you get lost, and how do you get out of being lost, and people helping isn't going to give you that learning experience of recovering, or, you know, using what we call whole structured discovery. The bottom line is, yeah, yeah, go ahead. I   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:01:30 say. I love the structured discovery. My whole organization, my board, yeah, when, when they like. I've got a couple of sighted board members, and they were new to the blind community, but knew it needed, you know, they were the ones who convinced me to start this. But once they learned about structured discovery, they were like, This is awesome, like, because I tell them, you know, don't help people, let them figure it out. And they watch, and they learned real fast that, okay, yeah, there is a method to the madness here.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:04 Yeah, it's, it's important to be able to deal with, deal with, with variety of things. And you're going to be best if you teach yourself how to recover from being lost very quickly. What is structured discovery?   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:02:24 So my understanding, because I've not been given the quote, unquote definition, is where you you have an environment to where you are, um, walking through it yourself and and discovering your your environment on your own with your your white cane, your your guide dog, but you're essentially like, yeah, discovering the the environment on your own accord. Michael, you might have a different answer, but that's that's my, my understanding well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:00 and the other part of it is you're walking along, you expect to be going somewhere, and suddenly you discover you're not where you thought you were, or you walk on grass and you didn't expect to be there. Structured discovery also teaches you how what you do is you step back, mentally and then physically. But you step back, you go back and retrace what you did to figure out where it is that you deviated from the path that you were expecting to be on. And it works very well.   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:03:33 I've used it and all the traveling I do, yes, I've gotten lost and had to backtrack. And how did we do this? Where did we go wrong? And believe me, I'll never forget those routes.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:48 Tell me how. So how do people get involved in the safety positive foundation? If they would like to.   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:03:57 So there's a couple different options. You can go to our website, at safety positive fdn.org, you can also we have a YouTube channel with lots of videos on on different information, and we have our Facebook page, the Facebook page and our website has links where you can come In and be part of our safety positive guide community, or you can also email us, phone call, just don't say send smoke signals. We're not going   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:31 to get those. Yeah, don't raise your hand. Don't raise your hand. That doesn't work. No,   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:04:35 no, no. It's lost on us.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:39 Yeah, it is on all of us, which is what's okay, it's always something to be learned. Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to be here with us for more than the last hour. It's been fun, and I hope that that people have learned something from it. We'll definitely get to see you next. At the NFB convention, I assume, and that'll be kind of fun too.   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:05:02 Yes, we're going to be there with bells on. There you   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:05 go. Well, we'll, we'll be there. Yeah, and, and I'll, I'll bring my dog over, and either he'll teach self defense or he'll learn self defense. I'm not, there we go. He'll probably be looking for ear scratches and nothing else. So it's okay. We all,   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:05:24 we all need a little love from time to time. Yeah, yeah, and he's   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:27 good at that. Well, well, thank you again for being here. This has been absolutely enjoyable, and if you've enjoyed listening to us, please let us know you can email me at Michael H I M, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, you can also go to our podcast page, where there's a contact form, and that's w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S o, n.com/podcast. We'd love to hear from you, and wherever you're listening or monitoring our podcast today, I hope that you'll give us a five star review. We really value your reviews. We appreciate it if you know of anyone and Amy you as well. If you know of anyone who you think might be a good guest for the podcast, we'd like to hear from you. We'd like you to provide an introduction. We're always looking for people who want to come on and tell their stories and help all of us see why we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. So I want to thank you all for for that as well. And Amy, once again, really appreciate you being here today. This has been a lot of fun. I   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:06:38 appreciate it, and I will end with my two cents of keep it safe, keep it positive and keep it safe and positive.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:06:50 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week. Amy SP Wilson, the trailblazer behind the Safety Positive Foundation, is revolutionizing personal safety for the blind and visually impaired community. Her journey began in March of 2023, but her path has been shaped by a diverse range of experiences. Some have been uplifting, while others have been challenging, but each one has served as a valuable lesson that propelled her towards the creation of the Safety Positive Foundation. Amy's commitment to personal safety has been a lifelong pursuit. From playfully wrestling with her cousins during her early years to becoming the first female wrestler at the Missouri School for the Blind in 1996, her passion for wrestling led her to the United States Association of Blind Athletes nationals in 1997, where she discovered Judo. In 1998, Amy proudly represented her country in the World Championships for the Blind in Judo, as a member of the inaugural women's Judo team of the USABA, all before graduating from high school. Unfortunately, Amy's eye condition, Stargardt's, prevented her from continuing her martial arts journey. Diagnosed at the age of 10 in 1992, she faced initial struggles. However, connecting with others who were also blind or visually impaired raised her expectations and inspired her to persevere. As life progressed, Amy earned her first bachelor's degree in psychology, only to become a survivor of domestic violence shortly thereafter. This was not her first experience as a survivor, and it is one of the primary reasons why she advocates for self-empowerment. Amy is deeply passionate about addressing the alarming rates of mental and emotional abuse within relationships involving individuals with disabilities. Amy's pursuit of knowledge led her to earn a second bachelor's degree in social work, providing her with valuable insights into developing systems within the Safety Positive Foundation. She consistently puts her education into practice, utilizing her expertise to make a difference. For the past decade, Amy has been involved in instructing and developing self-defense programs specifically designed for the blind and visually impaired. However, she found that these programs and organizations often had limited expectations for the BVI community, which did not align with her mission. Amy firmly believes that low expectations act as barriers, and she advocates for the BVI community to have unlimited choices when it comes to personal safety. Amy has dedicated her life to making this mission a reality for her community. She actively engages with the BVI community in various capacities, striving to enhance their lives as much as possible. Through the establishment of the Safety Positive Foundation, Amy shares her skills and empowers her community to embrace a safety-positive lifestyle. Ways to connect with Amy: Amy's digital business card link https://linqapp.com/ Book a meeting with me https://bit.ly/3LOviXT Website www.safetypositivefdn.org Facebook https://bit.ly/4fvKMO4 YouTube https://bit.ly/4d5FQy2 TikTok https://bit.ly/3LO9Ja1 LinkedIn https://bit.ly/4fvRbsE Instagram https://bit.ly/4duJq4B Contact info amyspwilson@safetypositivefdn.org 660-441-1907 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Tyler Mills grew up and lives in what he calls “rural America”. His home is about an hour outside Iowa City and is indeed by any standard not an urban environment. Tyler also happens to be a person with a disability: he has Cerebral Palsy and uses a wheelchair. He has a degree in Human Resources Management from Bellevue University.   Tyler, through his company Mills Marketing Services has spent his adult life working to advocate on behalf of persons with disabilities especially in the rural portions of America. Tyler and I talk quite a bit about Rural America which he points out is dying right in front of us. He feels that a significant part of the challenges faced throughout America, especially in the less populated areas, comes from our move away from politically moderate leaders. He points out that this is not a partisan situation. He writes about his beliefs in his book “Death of the Blue Dogs”. The book discusses the political changes we are facing in this country and how those changes are severely impacting the economic fortunes of people in rural America. Of course, he also ties in the ways political changes are negatively effecting persons with disabilities again especially in rural environments. “Blue Dogs” were and still are politicians with relatively moderate views who put community over personal gain. You will hear all about them during our conversation.   My discussion with Tyler is fascinating and far ranging as you can imagine. I think this episode will be quite thought provoking and I hope you enjoy listening to it.       About the Guest:   I am a freelancer writer, the owner of Mills Marketing Services and a 2022 graduate of Bellevue University with a degree in Human Resources Management,  I have also worked in numerous national and local political campaigns.  Political consulting is something that I am passionate about.  I want to try to bring more people together o fix problems, instead of emphasizing our differences.    I am the author of the essay “Death of the Blue Dogs.” The book talks about the impact of the political changes in rural America, and how those recent changes have impacted the economic fortunes of the people that live there. Rural America has to get a realistic chance to win some of the venture capital resources that are out there to compete for economic development projects on a global scale.   I seek to be a voice for people with disabilities, particularly in the area of employment. There are still far too many barriers for the disabled when they seek employment, some of those barriers may have been unintentional when they were first proposed.   Ways to connect with Tyler:   https://www.lulu.com/shop/tyler-mills/death-of-the-blue-dogs-how-the-demise-of-the-blue-dogs-harmed-the-country-created-qanon-voters/paperback/product-42n9wy.html?q=Blue+Dogs&page=1&pageSize=4     Also available on Amazon:   https://www.amazon.com/Death-Blue-Dogs-Explaining-Politics/dp/1312517646/ref=sr_1_14?crid=178TODTDMZ3TR&keywords=Blue+Dogs&qid=1690048552&s=books&sprefix=blue+dogs%2Cstripbooks%2C324&sr=1-14   Abe Books:   https://www.abebooks.com/9781312517646/Death-Blue-Dogs-Demise-Harmed-1312517646/plp   Locally at Burlington by the Book:   https://www.midwestbooksellers.org/independent-bookstore-directory/burlington-by-the-book   Mills Marketing Services Contact Page:   https://www.facebook.com/p/Mills-Marketing-Services-100063553481698/?_rdr   Twitter Account:   https://twitter.com/tmills43   LinkedIn Profile:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/tyler-mills-93b14a24/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Well, hi everyone. I am your host, Mike hingson, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here with us.  We really appreciate you coming and spending a little bit of time with us. And today we get to chat with Tyler Mills, who I find to be an interesting soul. Why do I say that? Well, he is a writer, among other things, and I'm really interested to hear about his his book that he's written. He's a freelancer writer. He is also the owner of Bill's marketing services, and he's worked on a whole bunch of political campaigns and in the political world, and I'm really interested in talking about that. I've done some things around Washington in the past, and had a lot of fun doing it, and met some interesting legislators and Congress people and so on. But sounds like he's done a whole lot more than I have, and I'm really interested to to get into that and and I know he's very interested in talking about rural America, and we're going to do that as well. So with all that in the background, Tyler, welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you? Thank you, Michael. I'm doing great. Well. We really appreciate you being here with us. Why don't we start as I love to do? Why don't you tell us about kind of the early Tyler, growing up and some of that stuff? Yeah,   Tyler Mills ** 02:39 basically, I've grown up here in southeastern Iowa. It's, I'm about an hour away from Iowa City, the University of Iowa, and it's a really great community to grow up in. I actually live in Keokuk, Iowa. We're right on the Mississippi River. Our main, our main industry, is a, you know, high fructose corn syrup. So it's a, it's not necessarily everyone's favorite topic or favorite industry out there, but that's what we mainly do in Keokuk, Iowa. And I've actually done a little bit of, you know, work with people that have developed websites for them and in the past. And that's part of what I've done with Mills marketing. And then I've also, you know, lobbied for different causes regarding disability rights and disability employment issues around Southeast Iowa. So what got   Michael Hingson ** 03:37 you interested in dealing with disability rights and advocating as you do.   Tyler Mills ** 03:41 I I realized as I got into the workforce, so many people that are in similar situations as I am, they're they're either not getting the opportunities that or they're afraid to break out and take those opportunities. I think it's a situation where the system is not always as conducive to employment as it should be. I think that, I think that there are a lot of employers who would be willing to employ more people with disabilities, but they don't know how to navigate the different barriers and parameters themselves. And I think they're, I think they're scared. I think they're afraid that, you know, there's going to be a liability on their on their in their facility, I you know there's, there's a lot of different   Michael Hingson ** 04:32 elements there, yeah. Do you have a disability yourself, a cerebral palsy? Okay, so that's, are you and are you in a wheelchair? Or do you have that much CP? Or, yeah, I could   Tyler Mills ** 04:47 find a wheelchair. You are okay.   Michael Hingson ** 04:51 Well, my wife, for her whole life, was in a wheelchair. She didn't have cerebral palsy. She had scar tissue on her spinal cord at the t3 level. So she was a t3 para, and we lost her in 2022 we were married 40 years. So as I tell people, and I will always say, no matter what anyone says, She's monitoring somewhere. And if I'm not a good kid, I'm going to hear about it. So I gotta try to make sure I'm a good kid. Yeah, don't want to get in trouble with her, you know. But anyway, and,   Tyler Mills ** 05:26 yeah, go ahead, I was just gonna say, I, I really, I in the in the last few years, I really started to look at the statistics dealing with employment amongst the disability community, and we've really made a lot of progress. And I don't want to imply that we we haven't made a lot of progress, because we have, but we're still at around 23% of people with what's classified as a disability under the ADA employment, which is not bad, 23% a lot better than I, better than I had previously been. But we really didn't even start charting those statistics until 2008   Michael Hingson ** 06:02 right? So yeah, and I know the unemployment rate among employable blind people is still much higher than that, but still it is progress, and it's not at the 70% where it was when I was growing up and in college and just going from college to the workforce. So we're better, but we're we've got a long way to go. And you know, why do you think that is? Why do you think that we still aren't really in anywhere near the norm, like for people who don't have traditional disabilities, people,   Tyler Mills ** 06:35 people are scared that they're going to lose their health insurance by going out into the workforce. That's that, I think, is the main barrier. And I think employers are scared to offer a full, certainly, a full health insurance package to someone that is disabled, and then if you make a certain amount of money, you no longer become eligible for the program. Or SSI, right? That you need to survive,   Michael Hingson ** 07:01 yeah, well, but the other side of that is that, typically, in a group health environment, disabilities aren't supposed to be a factor.   Tyler Mills ** 07:12 You would like to think so. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 07:15 yeah, as I say, supposed to be what I guess. What I'm getting at is, if you look at the paperwork and you look at the rules of typical group insurance, disabilities aren't included, that doesn't they're not an issue, but that doesn't mean that they're not but group insurance doesn't measure directly whether you happen to have a disability or Not. Yeah,   Tyler Mills ** 07:40 it's really, it's really bad, because I find it, at least, I found in most states, we're down to basically one giant insurer for almost every single state, at least it seems to be in, at least in my research. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but, you know, I do wish there were more options just anyone it was seeking private insurance so they could be, you know, as as self sufficient as they would like to be, yeah, basically we, you know, as as great as the Affordable Care Act is, in many ways, it's still, it really hasn't challenged the monopoly that we still have in the private insurance market. So,   Michael Hingson ** 08:19 yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's why I was real specific in saying the insurance I'm talking about is company group insurance, which is a little bit different in a lot of ways than typical private insurance and life insurance, although none of us could get life insurance policies until the early to mid 1980s because insurance companies plane said we were a higher risk. And it took a major effort and enough consumers rising up to get state legislatures to pass a law that said that you can't discriminate against persons based on a disability unless you can show actuarial statistics or evidentiary data. And nobody's been able to do that yet,   Tyler Mills ** 09:07 which is wonderful, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 09:09 yeah. Well, there's a whole story I was very much involved in that. I actually led that fight. I was living at the time in Massachusetts, so I led that fight. But there, you know, there are other aspects of insurance that are still issues in a lot of the kinds of other insurance, other than life insurance that we would like, like health insurance and so on. You're right. It's, it's, it's still a major challenge, and it's all really based on prejudice, though.   Tyler Mills ** 09:40 Well, I and I think that some employers also automatically assume that they could only get a half day out of us when we go to work. And depending upon how, you know, physically or mentally straining the work is, they automatically say, Well, I can only get a half day out of them, or maybe three hours. A day out of them, and what I think that we have a well, I mean, obligation is not the right word, but we, I am, during my time in the workforce, I've tried to prove some of these people wrong, that we that we can do a full day's work, at least I and I've been blessed to be able to have that opportunity. So many people that would like to have that opportunity, I'm not, do not have the chance because, yeah, they face a lot deeper challenges than I do, right? Well,   Michael Hingson ** 10:30 and when I asked the question before about why is the unemployment rate so high, another part of the answer that I would give is, and it gets back to part of what you're saying in a different way, but we're not included in the conversation. We are left out. And you're right. Employers and so many people make assumptions, and we've had things like sheltered workshops that have contributed to that, and a number of agencies around the country, so called rehabilitation agencies have contributed to that by not really being strong advocates. And the bottom line is though, that we really can work a full day, and for those people who physically may not be able to to do as much as other people would be able to do, it also may mean that what we really need to do is to look at what the right job for them would be, so that they could do as much work as anyone else. And that's also a big part of it.   Tyler Mills ** 11:29 And we were struggling with my internet and we probably still are. That's that's another issue here in rural America. If you want to be able to work from home, you're still going to be struggling your internet connection a lot of the time. So we've, we that was, Well, part of my book is about, uh, death of the Blue Dogs. I want to to people to understand what, what, regardless of your, whatever your politics happen to be, you should want access to the internet so people can can be, you know, working and be productive and be taxpayers, and, you know, feel good about their day. And there may be some people that don't want to work, but in my, in my experience, I've always felt like work and the dignity of work has given me a purpose, as, you know, as made me just feel better about my day. And I I'm not that may not be for everyone, but it certainly has helped me. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 12:24 I would also point out or submit that maybe for some of those people who don't want to work again, even there they may be prejudice and thinking they can't work and so they don't want to, and I'm sure there are some who just want to use the system, but I think there, there are a lot of people who haven't learned to have the confidence to stand up and really fight for for their right To be in the workforce and in the system.   Tyler Mills ** 13:02 And another aspect of this is, I think at least within rural America, I think right now, our and within the country at large, I think the venture capital dollars are getting spent in they're being too concentrated to one part of the country or the other. And if there was a way that we could convince people to spread that opportunity around a little bit better. I think that would be helpful as well. Yeah, I'm   Michael Hingson ** 13:27 sure, I'm sure that it would be helpful. Well, you mentioned the book. Tell me what? What are Blue Dogs?   Tyler Mills ** 13:34 Blue Dogs are a group of moderate to conservative Democrats, and I didn't really want to write this as a partisan book. What I wanted to do is write this as a book saying rule America needs to elect legislators that care about their constituencies. They go out there and use and appropriate tax dollars to make sure that our roads are functional, to make sure that we have access to internet, clean water, you know, schools with top notch technology so we can learn everything that we need to learn about it with to be able to be competitive in a global economy. Because basically what happened the Blue Dog Democrats were started in the early 1990s as a response to what many people viewed as, you know, Bill Clinton being too liberal. And Bill Bill Clinton did. He did race raise some taxes on some people at the beginning of his administration. So basically, the there was a group of about 30 or 40 Democratic legislators who said, We've got to kind of create our own group, and it could sort of like find the middle ground between what they consider to be too liberal. And Bill Clinton and yet too conservative to to jump to the Republican caucus. So, so they basically said, we're in the middle and we're being squeezed blue. So that's kind of where that term comes from.   Michael Hingson ** 15:13 Got it. You know? It's interesting. I I grew up, went to college in the 1970s and so on. And I've been a member of the National Federation of the Blind since 1972 and I remember going to several national conventions and also being very involved in dealing with things in Washington. And while one party is more conservative than the other, what's really interesting is that the emphasis on disabilities and supporting disabilities, at least to a degree, has shifted from the Republicans, who really were more champions earlier, but are much less so now, just because they've taken a completely different position about spending money and so on, but they're not the champions in general. That is that that the Democrats are,   Tyler Mills ** 16:14 and I would like to see the Republican Party get back to that, because if they if they believe in self reliance and independence and making people feel good about having something to do in their lives and being as functional as they can be. This should. This is a non partisan issue. Yeah, not non ideological, because all you're doing is you're creating you're creating jobs if, if someone with a disability can go out and become an entrepreneur and, let's say, hire three to four people. You know that that really, it may not seem like much on paper, but it can make a big difference in a community. It really can. So I, I and I, I think that you can still have a sense of community and still be, you know, be a rugged individualist at the same time, and I unfortunately, maybe within the Republican Party, they kind of, right now, only want that rugged individualism. And I think in order to have a functional society, you have to have some sort of a sense of community as well.   Michael Hingson ** 17:17 Well, I I agree. I think there's we're losing a lot of of our sense of community, and we become so fractured as a society that it's really difficult to talk and form community. And how do we get back to to that? How do we get back to people being able to share ideas, to have legitimate discourse? And also have different opinions, and people respect that, so we can discuss it and discuss them, but at the same time, we don't just blast everyone because they're different than we are. We get back.   Tyler Mills ** 17:58 We have to realize that our children go to the same public schools together. We still, we still go to the same churches. There's still some people who still go to the bowling allies together. I social media and social media marketing is great. I've been in that industry for quite a while myself, but we've kind of used that technology to go into our own little corners, and we just kind of follow the road we want to follow, instead of considering other points of view, considering what other people in the community might think we just we kind of, at this point, want to hear what we want to hear, and I don't know if we always consider it the other, someone else's perspective. And many of the legislators that were defeated that I write about in my book death of the Blue Dogs, they were kind of those people that were, you know, kind of the cooling saucers of the Congress, and they would kind of consider those different perspectives, and that's what I'd like to see us get back to as a society, not just as, you know, From a legislative, congressional perspective, but as a society, get, get, get that broader sense of community back, talk to each other again, because really, we still go to those same schools, churches, wherever you might line up, and hopefully we can start have that conversation again.   Michael Hingson ** 19:14 How do we get there? Though,   Tyler Mills ** 19:19 you have to realize that we're all just human beings. And I think, I think we, in some ways, we've kind of like going, Oh, that that person listens to different music than I do. I must not like them. Just I don't know where, I don't know where we got off base to where it's good where we go. Oh, that person has a different opinion than I do. I must hate them, I or I must at least dislike them, or not want to communicate with them. I think, I think, I think we just need to really we, we the society and media accentuate the differences. When I think. That even, even though you, Michael, have spent most of your time out in California, and I've spent my most of my time out in the Midwest, I think we'd find out probably quite a few things, regardless of politics or whatever, we'd have a lot of things just to communist, basic human beings. You know, well,   Michael Hingson ** 20:16 I've been fortunate enough to actually have lived in several places around the country and traveled to many more, and I love the richness of this country, and I appreciate the different environments, the different areas and the different points of view. And I think it is extremely important that we recognize that and that we respect it. But that sure breaks down in in our times right now, at least when it comes to politics, you can't have a political discussion at all without somebody just flying off the deep end somewhere.   Tyler Mills ** 20:59 Well, yeah. I mean, if you, if you go to the cable news networks, they reward the people that are saying the most outlandish things, regardless of where one stands. The person that gets the most media attention is the person that says the, you know, the most sometimes unproven thing. And when you reward non factual behavior, or just straight up dishonest behavior that I think that encourages society as a whole to go in that direction. You know,   Michael Hingson ** 21:31 unfortunately we live in a country where, well, I won't say unfortunately we live in a country that provides and allows for free free speech, but unfortunately, we do sometimes see that carried to an extreme, as you're pointing out,   Tyler Mills ** 21:45 well, and I think, I think that they that for some reason we consider, right now we've got people, if you fact check someone, they consider it a form of censorship, yeah, and I don't, I don't think, I don't think fact checking someone and saying, Hey, I have a different I have my research says differently than this. I'm offering this point of view. I don't think that's a form of censorship, but unfortunately, we've kind of gotten to that point where people think that that's censorship   Michael Hingson ** 22:11 well, and it is unfortunate that we've seen a lot of that, and we we do see the whole idea of of fact checking, and some people just totally resent it. But the problem is they don't want to do anything other than do as I say, not as I do. And that's unfortunate too, exactly, exactly. Yeah. So it does make it quite a, quite a pain to deal with, needless to say. Well, so what do we need to do? I know you've sort of alluded to it a little bit, but what do we need to do to kind of bring rural America economically back more into the fold and than it is. You've you've   Tyler Mills ** 22:59 got to have people that don't automatically assume that we don't have the skills to get things done. I think, unfortunately, there's a lot of stereotypes out there about people that then so these stereotypes are true, and we there. Life is about constant improvement, and if you're not willing to make changes and see how you need to improve yourself, how you need to improve your community, then you're not going to progress. But I think that there are a lot of people out there that look at rural America as you know well, they just they don't understand their flyover country. They're not willing to learn. And I think in my in my community, I think we are willing to learn. I think we are willing to get better, but we have to prove ourselves back. We have to prove that to other people. I was watching the Daily Show one night with Jon Stewart, and a lot of people enjoy Jon Stewart. Of course, he's a very funny comedian, regardless of what your politics are. And he was making, he I, he was making fun of the state of West Virginia far too much. And if you know it was like, you know, he's making fun of how they don't, you know, their their teeth, and they don't read enough. And it was just kind of like John, you you consider yourself someone who likes to highlight the plight of the working class from time to time, and then here you are, you know, kind of going off on these people who clearly need help, clearly need assistance, and they need jobs in their communities. And I wish that we would get rid of some of those stereotypes and stop saying some of those hateful things about each other, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 24:42 yeah. And it's and it is so true. Well, if you take West Virginia, for example, and I've read that, you know, there's people there will drink a lot of soft drinks and so on, and their teeth aren't great and all that. Um. And there are, there are issues like that, but there are also other factors that really cause some of that to be the case. Aren't there? There   Tyler Mills ** 25:07 are, there are. I wish that that people would actually go to some of these communities more often. I wish that, you know people were able to travel more and to learn more about why, if you look at the history of West Virginia, Was it really the best place to even put a state you know that that's that's worthwhile to be so can you really blame that on the people that live there now, as far as economic development, as far as you know that, and we're in a lot of these communities, smaller communities. They're They're controlled by one employer. You know, what a what? Once one, one employer gets locked into a community, they kind of dictate whether another employer can come in, because they're afraid that their workforce, they're going to lose their workforce if this other employer comes in and that that's another the monopolistic practices or the, you know, I I'm not sure what the exact wording of it would be, but it's certainly a controlling process for a lot of these communities, because they're afraid to lose that One major employer, and then what do they have?   Michael Hingson ** 26:22 And they're afraid to lose or they think they would lose their identity,   Tyler Mills ** 26:27 absolutely. And I I think work. And some people would disagree with me this. They would say, well, Tyler, you should just find more leisure time. Find more things with your leisure time, and not worry so much about work, but I think that the people that are encouraging a society without work are often some of the most successful people in society that don't have to worry about it anyway. I worry that people, regardless of their politics, they figured the game out, they figured the world out. They know how to make money. They know how to, you know, pretty much get anything they want. And then they're going to say, well, you know, just sort of Pat us on our head, right? And just sort of say, Well, you shouldn't have to work anymore, or you shouldn't worry about that stress anymore. And in some ways that would be a good thing, but in some ways, I need that stress. I need that challenge well,   Michael Hingson ** 27:23 and I think that's the real operative part of it, it's challenge. We as a as a race, tend to like challenge, whether we always admit it or not, we do. We like challenge, and we like to have things that we have to overcome. And for those people who have, quote, made it, that's real lovely, but the problem is they tend to forget along the way what it took to get there. And the result, ultimately, is that they don't really help people like they can to get other people to maybe work like they did, and get there as well. Yeah,   Tyler Mills ** 28:02 and AI and all these different forms of technology are going to be absolutely wonderful for so many people with disabilities. But we've also got to consider, you know, if you've got a bit of a cognitive disability, are you going to be able to catch on to this AI technology as quickly as you should? And are these and are these programs going to be, are there going to be funding for the, you know, to go to the community college in a smaller community where someone could learn how to use this technology better? I think that some of the some of the people that are creating the technology are not thinking of me in rural America, or other people in rural America that have disabilities, it may take us a little bit longer, and that it's going to be, you know, might, we might pick it up four or five years down the road, but those four or five years are going to be rough, you know?   Michael Hingson ** 28:53 Well, yeah, and AI in general is so new that we really miss out on thinking in the more long term approach of what it will and can become. Of course, now we've got so many people who are going, Oh, it's horrible. It's going to take all of our jobs away. Kids are just going to use it to create all their papers and so on at school, so they're not going to learn anything. And from my perspective, hearing those kinds of comments tells me you're really missing it, and you're you're not recognizing the value that AI really brings to the world. So for example, for for for the classroom, if children are writing their papers and just letting ai do all the work, you may or may not be able to tell it when you're grading the paper, but the thing to do is to maybe get creative and think about a little. Bit different way of teaching. For example, when you assign students to do a paper, and especially you're concerned that they just may be letting AI write it, chat, GPT or something, write it, the easy thing to do is take one period of your class and have all of your students individually come up and take a minute and defend your paper, and you'll know very quickly who really understood it and who used it all the right way or not.   Tyler Mills ** 30:34 Yeah. I mean, I mean, when I, when I was going through school, we would, you know, the teacher would kind of read the whole book to us, and instead of having us read out loud, and then, and then you, and then you graduate high school, and then you're like, some of these kids can't read. And then it's like, well, where, where were you in the seventh grade checking to make sure that they could read?   Michael Hingson ** 30:56 Well, yeah, yeah, um, and I think there, yeah, I've had some teachers that all they did was parrot the book, which is not what a good lecturer should do at all. The book is the book, and the teacher needs to really add value to that process. And and that's something that you don't always see, which is also the case. My belief is that a good boss, if they're really exercising leadership skills, a good boss, has to work with each person in their team and figure out how the boss can add value to make them more successful, rather than just focusing and telling them what to do and and not not being involved anymore. That's not leadership Exactly,   31:46 exactly.   Michael Hingson ** 31:49 So I think it is important that you know we need to, again, look at all of that well. So it is. It is pretty clear to me that what you would really like to see us do is shift some of what we're doing in our priorities, like in the political spectrum and so on, to be a little bit more moderate and not be one side or the other necessarily. How do we do that? We how do we convince people that we got to go back to a more moderate environment? We   Tyler Mills ** 32:20 look we look at people's resumes. We look at we look at people who actually consider it different points of view. I back in 20, 2015 2016 I worked for a guy named us, Senator Jim Webb. He was from the Virginia and he was a Vietnam veteran, he ran as a Democrat for president, but he also served in the Reagan administration. And thing about Jim is, when I first met him, you know, basically in the past, so some candidates that I'd met were a little bit hesitant to work with me because of my disability, but because of Jim's background as a veteran, and he dealt with people with disabilities before, he was very, very inclusive, very, very receptive to not only me, but also all points of view. And I think that if people honestly just want to take the time and listen to good, moderate people, regardless of whether they have an RD or anything else behind their name. Part of it is, I think, is our attention span. I don't mean to be insulting the people by saying it's an attention span issue, but I don't think that they take the time to listen and say, Hey, this this individual is considering more than one side of the coin, more than one point of view? Yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 33:46 Well, yeah, it really gets down to you. Got to spend time thinking and strategizing and not just reacting and recognizing there's more to life than just one opinion,   Tyler Mills ** 34:03 exactly i and that's the thing about the the people in this book, they were, they, these were these were people that you know were getting votes from people that didn't necessarily agree with them ideologically. But what they would do is they would take the time to listen to other people and to help people with their social security matters, or help people with, you know, making sure that their son was able to apply for that Pell Grant, or their daughter was able to apply for that Pell Grant. And so even though you didn't necessarily line up with everyone on an ideological basis, a lot of people would still cast their ballot for them, and because they would actually do the work what a congress person is supposed to do, in my opinion, and like we were talking about earlier on Fox News or on any of the cable networks, I think that people again, are rewarded for being loud instead of doing the work of what a member of Congress is supposed to do. I.   Michael Hingson ** 35:00 Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's tough to get enough people together to to deal with that kind of vision. And so the result is that when you get, as you pointed out, people who may be a little bit more moderate, or people who want to really make contributions to society as a whole. They drop out because they feel like they've got just too many things stacked against them, and they're just too many people who don't want to listen.   Tyler Mills ** 35:31 Yeah. I mean, there's a part of my book during the CNN debate and Anderson Cooper was questioning Jim Webb and some of the other candidates about the Americans with Disabilities, act and Senator Webb and made the point in the past about affirmative action, possibly not considering income enough as far as making sure that people had opportunities well. Anderson Cooper implied during that debate that Jim Webb was anti Ada and I kind of went I highly doubt many of these other presidential candidates have people on in wheelchairs, on their in wheelchairs and dealing with a lot of other disability related issues on their steps right now, working on their campaigns. And here's Anderson Cooper telling me that my candidate might be anti Ada, and I was that just kind of it took me back, because I again, I think that it's the responsibility of a journalist to actually dig deeper into someone's writing, their what their public statements, everything about their as much as they can before they make some outlandish question or comment like that. And again, I think it's, it's just some of it is a lack of responsible journalism because you're trying to get ratings. You're trying to, you know, get the headlines there, instead of actually digging into the issues that people are going to need in order to be able to survive.   Michael Hingson ** 37:04 So you've talked about the Blue Dogs being involved in rural America on the question that comes to mind is, aren't they just as important for the big city and non rural America? Yeah,   Tyler Mills ** 37:16 yeah. And that's the thing is, back in the 70s, when, you know, when we people were trying to get the farm bill done, they would make sure that provisions were in there to, you know, create more farming opportunities in urban America. So there weren't food deserts. There are food deserts in urban America too. And I think that when, when you elect people that don't care about a farm bill, that don't want to, they don't want to earmark resources to a community, you know, they want to act like they're just going to save money on this or that, when really, I don't think there's that much savings going on, because I think a lot, a lot of a lot of Countries are running debt. They've always been running debt. And I think it's not that debt doesn't matter. Debt absolutely does matter. But at the end of the day, if, if your people are living in a food desert, because the farm bill is not, you know, the resources there are not properly, you know, allocated, that's an issue that's far deeper than a than a structural, you know, spending deficit,   Michael Hingson ** 38:28 yeah, yeah. And we, well, we've, we've got to figure out a way to bring a little bit more sanity to the process. I guess we've, we've seen these kinds of cycles before, though, and the hope, and the hope is, over time, we'll be able to see maybe the the cycle shift, and we bring a little bit more sanity into the whole structure. But it's going to take somebody who's a really strong leader, who understands that, who can make it happen? And I'm not sure that we are seeing any of that even today in society, we have two political candidates, and I think one is closer to that ideal than the other, but I'm not sure whether we have anyone who really is strong enough or sophisticated enough to outsmart and bring about the kind of changes that we're talking about.   Tyler Mills ** 39:26 Well, the thing that frustrates me, and one of the things that frustrates me, is that some, some of these people that that were that were elected to Congress, are now seeing their communities die out. That they're, they're they're losing population. You can, you can look at the statistics. These are not made up statistics. These are proven statistics that that all a lot of these rural communities are losing population and alarming rates, and yet, you these people are continually getting rewarded by getting elected again and again. Wouldn't they want to see their community? Grow? That's my question. Maybe I don't want it seems like a false way of thinking here, because a lot of these communities are dying out, and yet you're getting rewarded by getting re elected or given a higher position in some sort of organization. And I'm like, You are losing population in your community at an alarming rate, and yet you're bragging about getting, you know, whatever you think done to me, you would want your community to grow and prosper? Well,   Michael Hingson ** 40:31 I would think so. But again, what we find is people's priorities are a little bit different than than I think what we would believe would be the ideal, yeah,   Tyler Mills ** 40:44 and it's, it's, it's frightening, because, you know, I the goal of of any, any society, it should be to help as many people as you can reach their full potential. Yeah? And if, and if rural America and in parts of urban America, absolutely, if they're not getting resources allocated to them, there's always so much you can do completely on your own in this world, in my opinion, and without that sense of community, I think a lot of people are being left behind, and it's just it's extremely unfortunate.   Michael Hingson ** 41:18 Do you think that we'll be able to see a shift, and we'll find more moderates coming back at some point,   Tyler Mills ** 41:25 we have to find a way to punish the media for what they do. They they encourage just out. They want people to start yelling. They want people to start yelling at each other. It's like, it's like a professional wrestling match. Michael, it's not like, you know, we basically got talk radio on in the halls of Congress now. Instead of, instead of saying, Hey, you're a human being, I'm a human being, I have constituents. You have constituents. We literally have members of the United States Senate, you know, threatening union leaders saying you want to fight, you want to have a fist fight, you know, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 42:09 And well again, what do we do to change all of that? And you're right, the media is certainly a part of it. One of the things that really frustrates me is that we have these things. When candidates for president, for example, get together, they call them debates, but they're not debates. No, I'm not sure. I don't remember the Kennedy Nixon debate, and so I don't remember whether it really was a debate, but I bet it was closer to a debate than anything that we see today, because we're not really seeing any kind of good, real, legitimate debate discourse. No,   Tyler Mills ** 42:54 it's, it's sound bite after sound bite and attack line after attack run, and the questioning, the questioning is set up that way, and it's and I understand why they do it, because they want viewership. They want people to be talking about, oh, this candidate said this tan. And now we're going to talk about it for the 24 hour news cycle, and then we're going to move on to the next news cycle. Instead of having a substantive debate where people can discuss issues and actually solve, you know, internet connectivity in rural or parts of urban America, we end up with a debate over I, you know, whatever the you know, space lasers or whatever you know so well.   Michael Hingson ** 43:40 And the other part about it is that, I think, in reality, with a legitimate, real debate, you would have just as much to talk about, and would still allow for all of that to happen. Yeah,   Tyler Mills ** 43:52 yeah. So maybe, again, maybe it's maybe they need to give more air time to it. But again, that attention span that I think partly, personally, because of technology and the way things have changed. For better or worse, people don't have that attention span anymore, and I'm just as guilty as anybody so   Michael Hingson ** 44:13 they don't have that attention span. I hear people talking all the time about making videos to put up on YouTube or whatever, and I am told constantly it's got to be 30 seconds, because people won't pay attention for any longer than that. Yet, what content can you really do in 30 seconds?   44:33 Nothing, nothing,   Michael Hingson ** 44:37 or very little of any substance anyway, which isn't to say that you want to have a video that's 15 minutes or a half hour. It's got to be something that that makes sense. You got to keep people's attention, but I have yet to see if you do it the right way, where you can have a five minute video that keeps. That doesn't keep people's attention, if you do it, right?   Tyler Mills ** 45:03 Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I all listen to a good podcast. I mean, you know, like, just like we're doing right here, and you know, if it really gets my attention, I'm gonna, I know, and then I'm gonna come back for more, you know. And I think people hopefully, you know, hopefully they enjoy that sort of thing still, and, you know, really embrace it. I hope, I certainly hope so.   Michael Hingson ** 45:23 We have typically made these podcasts an hour long, and I've had the opportunity to be interviewed on a variety of different kinds of podcasts, and I've been lectured not about mine so much as other people say, Well, no one's going to listen to a podcast if it's an hour long. That's why we only make ours 15 minutes, or 20 minutes, or at most, a half hour, and yet, when they ask questions, they they don't really ask questions, much less do it in a way that creates content and does does what they really ought to do, even If it's only a half hour long.   Tyler Mills ** 46:00 Yeah, I, I, I think, I, I wish that content could be more substantive. I think, I think you're spot on about that. No doubt about it. So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 46:16 so what we have, we have seen changes come about, although sometimes it isn't, perhaps in the ways that we ought to I mentioned earlier sheltered workshops, and there's been a big battle in the blindness system about the fact that all too many rehabilitation agencies and other entities push so many blind people into sheltered workshops, and those workshops have a way where they don't have to pay even minimum wage, and they've played some really strong games with that, but there's been a lot of visibility about that, and so a number of those shops have actually changed their model. But what do we do again to get the Congress to really deal with it? Or, you know, or is that asking the same question we've asked so many times already during this conversation? You know,   Tyler Mills ** 47:15 I think, I think it's up to the private sector. I think the private Congress right now is at a standstill, and I think that they prefer their permanent stand. So I, I've spoken to HR professionals, and my degree is actually in the human resources. And a lot of these HR professionals are not aware of the different programs that are out there, and then they're not aware of the tax credits. Yeah, it's not, it's not that they're not well, it says they're not willing to learn. I just don't think that was part of their program. I've worked at a call center now. You know, for over eight years, I'm still, obviously, there are all kinds of disabilities out there, but I'm still the only person in a wheelchair out after over eight years. And I don't know if I hope it hasn't been my own performance that has discouraged them from hiring other people with disabilities, but because that really would upset me, but it would, it would, but I, I You would think that someone else would have come across the line during the time I've been out there, because, Like, even when I got out there, they're like, they're like, you're the only person in wheelchair I've ever ain't out, you know? And they, they'd been working for other call centers before, and I was like, this is call center work. This is one of the most obvious things that people like me can do, yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 48:35 it's and it's easy, it doesn't require an incredible amount of physical labor. And there are actually some good technological ways that a blind person could do that. It does take, it does take some some additional kinds of things, given the typical call center software, but the technology is there to do that today.   Tyler Mills ** 48:58 Yeah, I, I don't know if you've ever had the chance to work with different call centers about that kind of technology, but apparently some of them still need to help. So   Michael Hingson ** 49:07 oh, they do. I know of some mine, and I've I've dealt with some that actually have put the effort into it, but still, I know what you're saying. But then it gets back again to the whole idea of we're not included in the conversation. And I think that mostly when it comes down to dealing with people with disabilities, we don't think about it that way. We don't think about we're not included in the conversation, and we don't necessarily really deal with that. And when I'm talking about the conversation, why isn't the President every time he, or possibly in the future, she, is talking about one thing or another that they don't just talk about race and gender, they also automatically include people with disabilities and. Use examples. We're not included in any of those conversations.   Tyler Mills ** 50:04 Well, I think, unfortunately, we're, we're given absolutely necessary social programs there, you know, disability benefits, Medicaid, different things are absolutely necessary for survival. But I think people just sort of like, make sure that their tax dollars go to that, and then they don't think, they think, well, we it's not that they think we've done enough, but they think that, you know, well, we are making sure that these people are able to stay alive, and maybe in their minds, that is enough. But for for you and me and other people that think about this on a deeper level, we want more, and are we being selfish? I don't think so. You know, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 50:47 well, so we've talked a lot about work. Does society value work? Is that changing?   Tyler Mills ** 50:53 I don't, I don't think so. And as much as I embrace new forms of technology, I think that there's some. I think a lot of our drug problem, and particularly in rural America, is because you don't, you don't have some of those. You're not giving some of those menial labor jobs to the regular working class anymore. You're letting the technology do which is fine if you want to let the technology do it. That's completely your prerogative and your perspective, do you know to just sort of move, you know, the self checkout thing, and that's that's fine if companies want to go that route. But I think at the same point, there's a value to getting that person who may have been struggling in life, to get them to add a local grocery store, be at a Costco, or whatever the case may be, instead of, you know, having a self checkout, you know, it does, it does it hurt a company's bottom line? Absolutely, in many ways it does. But I think that we've lost a sense of that. Yeah, no purpose of work,   Michael Hingson ** 51:55 yeah, well, um, and you, you, you cut out a little bit. So maybe you can repeat some of that, because you cut out for a few seconds.   Tyler Mills ** 52:04 Yeah, the internet's going out, like we were talking about earlier, just again about how I think, I think it's important to still have part of that is the loss of the sense of the community is because we don't we use the technology now that it can be very, very helpful. But at the same time, if you give that job to a person who was previously struggling and not able to make find their way in life, maybe struggling with a fentanyl or struggling with some sort of drug related issue, now that they can have a job, they feel better about themselves, they can get a paycheck and be it be a larger part of society. Obviously, we'd rather have them, you know, getting an advanced degree and moving on to that larger scale to scale job. And hopefully they would be able to do that in the future. But I think society doesn't value, you know, having a someone to check out your groceries or someone to, you know, wash your car or mow your grass, or some of the menial jobs that are going to be eliminated here in the future, and in many cases, have been eliminated now. So we're as beautiful. Technology is going to be great for us. It's going to work in so many great ways. But we also don't look at the other side of the coin enough either. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 53:30 the other side of that, though, is let's take self checkout here in California, for example, when you talk about if you have to hire somebody, does that affect the bottom line, it does. But what we're also discovering is that self checkout is affecting the bottom line because there are too many people who cheat that system, and the result is that they they're able to get out without paying for everything or whatever. So their their challenges, all around and again, what I'm hearing you say, and I think there's merit to it, is that what we're really not doing is representing enough the value of giving people the opportunity to have jobs and encouraging them. And the companies aren't tending nearly to be as loyal as they used to be for people and working. And you're right. They're going to technology and everything else, and they're not being loyal like they used to be. You don't see the same loyalty. Hence, people move so often from one job and one company to another job and another company.   Tyler Mills ** 54:45 Yeah, when you have people in the investing in your company, they're just looking at the profit at the end of the quarter. They don't look at the you know, they see that profit in their stock portfolio, which is fantastic, because, well, anybody should be able to play the stock. Could do whatever they want, but again, if Walmart turns a massive profit by eliminating 1520, jobs, if they're different operations, what kind of larger impact does that have on a local community? And that's that's a question that should be asked. Now we might come to the conclusion that that's overall a good thing. I I don't come to that conclusion necessarily, but I think, I think it's a conversation that needs to be had   Michael Hingson ** 55:29 all the time, and it's like anything else. How do we get that conversation to occur more often?   Tyler Mills ** 55:36 Well, I think, again, I think we've kind of lost our sense of I don't, but when I, when I was growing up, I think that people were just nicer to each other. I and I, I don't know if it's because people just think they can say whatever they want to each to each other, yeah, now, now that we're behind the keyboard, or we can just be agree or disagree. We should never be as just unkind and be calling each other stupid and uninformed? And you know, we need to consider all different perspectives as much as we can. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 56:09 you know, we we should, and I really would love to see a world where we could have a lot more discussion without somebody becoming offended, because discussion is always valuable if we really have a discussion, and can if going back to using that term debate something. But you know, so do you think more people with disabilities ought to move and be involved in more rural America? Would that be a beneficial thing?   Tyler Mills ** 56:50 I think would be beneficial. I think if we there are a lot of extremely compassionate people here. I think that just because they people assume, just because a certain community starts to vote a certain way, that they've lost their compassion. I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think you've got a lot of compassionate people here who who love, who love, to help other people. They're not necessarily voting the way. They're not actually voting their values. They're extremely compassionate people, but they're not voting that way. So then people who are voting the opposite way assume that they don't care. I think it's a lack of information. I think we've got we've got as much information as we've ever had at our fingertips. I don't know if we're actually on a search for knowledge within that information, you know? So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 57:47 we, we don't know how to search. We don't know how to or, oftentimes it seems like we don't want to get that information, because it, it, it's the the usual, don't bother me with the facts, and that's unfortunate.   Tyler Mills ** 58:06 And I also worry about, you know, a lot of these bigger banks and bigger companies are able to swallow up the smaller banks in the smaller communities, and so the, again, the capital dries up. The that's that's really important. I I don't understand completely why, why some people who would consider themselves more conservative aren't worried about anti trust laws if they truly want those rural communities that they represent to survive. The reason why I wrote this book is because I see, again, I see a lot of people who are who are elected to represent rural America, are letting it die out, and I do not understand why that's and that's what I tried to explore in the book. And it just it. It boggles my mind. And I could write 15 books on it, and it would still make me go, Hmm,   Michael Hingson ** 59:00 well, your voice still needs to be heard out there, and people need to hear I think what you're saying, it's, it certainly isn't a very relevant and valuable viewpoint. And we've, we've got to get to the point where we can have good discussion and good interaction with each other. We've lost the art of conversation all the way around.   Tyler Mills ** 59:26 Yeah, it's, it's because we we text each other and we message each other and and shorthand, and we don't really, I don't think we have those same kind of full length conversations that we used to have.   Michael Hingson ** 59:37 One of the things that I do regularly when I'm looking for speaking opportunities, and I've looked at some databases, and I will send out emails and talk to people about becoming or hiring me to be a speaker. I love it when somebody responds to me, and even if they say I'm the. Right person. We're not doing anything right now, but they leave a phone number because I think it's so important to be able to reach out to people on the phone. Email is so insensitive, and texting, of course, is there's nothing like communicating with someone on the phone. And I know that a lot of times I've been able to get speaking engagements because I was able to actually have a phone conversation. And some people have gone so far as to say, most people don't call me. I really appreciate the fact that you called me and took the time to to let me get to know you better, and whether we have anything right now or not, isn't the issue, but thanks for at least initiating the phone call.   Tyler Mills ** 1:00:47 Yeah, you you can talk about why you care about a project more. You can really go into detail as to why you know this. Do you think that this particular situation, whatever you're working on, would would really help benefit everyone involved in a text message. I don't think you can necessarily lay out that kind of emotion, you know, you   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:09 certainly can't lay out the emotion. Yeah, yes, it is just, isn't there? Well, Tyler, this is really been a lot of fun. We have spent an hour doing it, and I have no problem with that, just okay. So I really appreciate your time, and I think I really thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening. This has been a lot of fun, and I hope that you've enjoyed it, everyone out there listening and watching us, I hope you've enjoyed it, and that you will let us know what you think. Please feel free to email me. Michael, H, I m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, and we'd love to hear from you. We'd love if you whenever you're listening or wherever you're listening. If you give us a five star rating, please rate us Tyler. If people want to reach out to you and interact with you more, how do they do that? They   Tyler Mills ** 1:02:07 can find me on LinkedIn, Tyler mills. Type in Tyler Mills, Mills, marketing services. You also my book is on lulu.com that's where I get the most money for it, to be honest, amazon.com wonderful site if you want to get it there, but I only get 37 cents on Amazon. But so if, if you can go to lulu.com death of the Blue Dogs, Tyler Mills, if you want to learn more about my book, any, any of the projects that I have to do with Mills marketing services, you could find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on Facebook. Mills marketing services. I'm I'm available. I got my phone number, email everything, so I'm good to go. Cool.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:46 Well, we put links in the cover notes as well, so the show notes, so they'll be there. So again, I want to thank you all. I really appreciate you, Tyler, taking the time. And if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. And for all of you out there, if you know anyone who you think ought to be a guest or might be a good guest, I want to hear about it. We're always looking for people who want to come on and tell their story and talk about what they do. So please, by all means, refer people to us. I think it would be great. And we would love to talk with them and explore them coming on the show. So once again, I want to thank you, though all for being here. Tyler, I want to thank you for being here. This has been fun.   Tyler Mills ** 1:03:29 Thank you for the opportunity. Michael, I really enjoyed it. Thank you for letting me speak to your viewers.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:03:40 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Freda Uwa grew up in Nygeria. There she attended college securing a bachelor's degree and then went on to do some advance studies as well. She is a trained nurse. She also is a nutrition expert and, as she tells us, she loves to cook.   Five years ago Freda moved to Canada. She spent time as a mental health case manager even before her husband and three boys moved to Canada to join her. As she tells us, while she absolutely loved her time as a case manager, the job was quite taxing on her. She had to handle many cases where she had no one with whom to share her experiences. As we discuss here, not having any opportunity to decompress by talking to a spouse or others is by no means healthy.   Eventually Freda gave up her case management job and, just about a year ago, she assumed the job of Executive Director of Independent Living Canada. This organization oversees 24 independently operated independent living centers which are spread throughout Canada. She has shown that she is ideal for the job due to her leadership and project management training and skills. Freda is the first black leader of IL Canada which has been in existence for 38 years.   Freda gives us lots of insights on leadership and community. I hope you enjoy our time with Freda and that you will take the time to give this episode and Unstoppable Mindset a 5-star rating.       About the Guest:   Freda Uwa is a distinguished leader and advocate in the fields of independent living, accessibility, and mental health. Freda draws from her extensive experience in Canada to drive impactful initiatives and foster inclusive communities.   Currently, Freda serves as the National Executive Director of Independent Living Canada, overseeing 24 Independent Living Centres led by individual Executive Directors across the country. In this role, she made history as the first Black leader in the organization's 38-year history and the first African in Canada to ever lead the sector as National Executive Director.   Freda's notable accomplishments include her work as the Project Manager for the Creating Accessible Events Project for the Government of Canada through Accessible Standards Canada. This role underscores her commitment to ensuring that events across the nation are inclusive and accessible to all individuals, regardless of their abilities.   As the Regional Coordinator for the IDEA Project for Race and Disability Canada, Freda plays a pivotal role in addressing the intersectionality of race and disability, advocating for policies and practices that promote equity and inclusion.Her extensive background in mental health is exemplified by her previous role as a Mental Health and Addictions Case Manager, where she provided critical support and care to individuals facing mental health challenges and substance use issues.   In addition to her leadership and advocacy roles, Freda holds a Canadian Red Seal Endorsement for Skills and Trades, showcasing her dedication to professional excellence and her commitment to fostering skill development and employment opportunities.     Freda Uwa's career is marked by her unwavering dedication to championing the rights and needs of marginalized communities, her innovative approach to project management, and her exceptional leadership in promoting independent living and accessibility. Her work continues to inspire and drive positive change across Canada, Africa and beyond.   Ways to connect with Freda:   IL Canada Facebook Link - https://www.facebook.com/MyIndependentLivingCanada?mibextid=ZbWKwL Freda's LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/freda-uwa-7515a235?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=android_app  Freda Instagram (Business page)  - https://www.instagram.com/luluseventsandkitchen?igsh=YW10OWs3ODY5d2Q1   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome once again to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and we do get to talk about inclusion today. And as some of you know who are regular listeners to this podcast, the reason it is inclusion, diversity in the unexpected is it's inclusion because it is. Diversity comes second after inclusion, because if you talk to people about diversity, typically they never talk about disabilities. We get left out of the discussion. And then the unexpected is anything that doesn't have anything to do with inclusion or diversity, which is probably most of the guests that we deal with. But today, we are going to have the honor of speaking to Freda Uwa and Freda is the executive director of independent living Canada, which has responsibility or works with the 24 independent living centers around Canada. And so I'm really looking forward to learning more about that and hearing about it and looking forward to hearing all that Freda has to say. So Freda, we want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset, and we're really glad you're here.   Freda Uwa ** 02:29 Thank you, Michael, thanks for having me. Well, I   Michael Hingson ** 02:33 love to start kind of little bit different than maybe some people do tell us about the early Frida, growing up and all that sort of stuff, anything that that you want us to know, and you don't have to tell us all your secrets, but tell us about the early freedom.   Freda Uwa ** 02:49 Oh, that's fun. Thanks. Michael. Freda, the little girl. Freda i Oh, that's so much fun. Now I think about growing up and all of the memories that that comes with so I I am privileged to have grown in a closely middle class family in Nigeria. I grew up in Nigeria, one of the countries in Africa, and it was fun, right? The bills, just happy go lucky child. I was the one child that had all the breast of energy, and I just loved to laugh. So that was all of that. There was family, faith based activities, and I also had schooling, of course. And went to college, did my nursing, went on to do a BSc in home Science and Management, and with an option in nutrition and dietetics and so all of that was fun. And of course, I enjoyed having to be part of a family that loved to do things together. So that was, that's Freda, oh, the little girl. Frida, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 04:02 that's the little girl. Frida, well, that works out pretty well. So you have a bachelor's did you go anywhere beyond a bachelor's degree or   Freda Uwa ** 04:11 Yeah, so in Canada, I had, I took a post grad certificate in nursing, leadership and management, and then community mental health certificate as well. So yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 what that works out pretty well and certainly kept you busy. And what did? What did you do with all that? Once you got your degrees,   Freda Uwa ** 04:33 I evolved. You evolved.   Michael Hingson ** 04:37 You grew up then, huh?   Freda Uwa ** 04:39 Absolutely, absolutely. So there was a lot of growth that came with that, a lot of responsibilities. I moved to Canada, figured out new part and all of that. So there was all of the growth that happened and that forces you to evolve. So the degree, the experience and all of that. So in the short answer is I evolved with that. So yeah. Us.   Michael Hingson ** 05:01 Okay, and so what kind of jobs did you hold   Freda Uwa ** 05:09 all my life? You mean, or you're just asking for a period in my life?   Michael Hingson ** 05:13 Yes, so once college was over, what kind of, what kind of jobs did you actually do then for a while?   Freda Uwa ** 05:19 Okay, so I, I am a registered nurse as well, so I'm right. I have many parts, right? So I did nursing. I also have a business, a food business as well. So I was into events management and catering at the time, and then the core of what I do now, also started in Nigeria, where I led a nonprofit for about four years before moving over to Canada, did some schooling, and then came back to the space that I love, and that's social services around people, supporting people with disabilities and all of that so and that's a pack of all that I did in terms of work.   Michael Hingson ** 06:01 What brought you from Nigeria to Canada?   Freda Uwa ** 06:05 First of all, it was cooling, like I came to experience that other side of education, right? So I came with that flare, and then family moved over, and now I'm here.   Michael Hingson ** 06:19 Well, that works out pretty well we i People won't necessarily see it, but we just have company joining us. My cat has joined us. I see and I'm trying to get her up on the back of our desk chair so that she will hopefully leave us alone. Anyway, there we go. Well, so how long ago did you come over from Nigeria to Canada? I've been in   Freda Uwa ** 06:45 Canada going on five years now. I I moved here at the peak of, not the peak at the beginning of the pandemic. So I came in just as I got into Canada, everywhere was shut down. So I'm like, is this the reality? Is this what it feels like being here? So I was almost locked up right away. So yeah, that's, that's my journey. So it's about going on five years now.   Michael Hingson ** 07:10 Wow. So you've been here a while. So you, you came over here and you, you decided that your passion was really working in the arena of disabilities and and so on. So what? What really caused you to do that? Why did you decide that that's what you really wanted to do with your life?   Freda Uwa ** 07:34 Great question. Michael, so I've always known that I had what I call a greater calling, like I've always wanted to live my purpose in life. I know I did share that. I am a registered nurse in Nigeria, and having all of that, and also business owner in Nigeria, but I find that in all that I did, there was something, there was a missing piece, right? So I needed to, I needed to fill that void and recall that I told you that I grew up in a close knit family setting, so my younger sister that I love today, by the way, she has a disability, and I've been a primary caregiver I had, or I was her primary caregiver for a while, and I also watched my mother struggle through that. At some point, my mother, my mother's life, was almost on hold because she needed to take care of her child. So that, in itself, created the need for me to just fill a void, right? So it was beyond just where, where's the money, right? It was beyond that, and I needed to just leave out my purpose and find a career that would really and genuinely make me happy while I'm touching life in the way that I know how to   Michael Hingson ** 09:05 Yeah, well, and I believe very firmly in the fact that if you're really doing what you like to do, then it isn't really a job. It's it's a whole lot more fun, and it's a whole lot more rewarding. Absolutely,   Freda Uwa ** 09:19 I'm having fun, Michael, I'm having funded. So yes, which   Michael Hingson ** 09:22 is, which is really important to be able to do, what if I can ask, is the disability that your sister has? She's   Freda Uwa ** 09:30 She has intellectual disability. So it's, yeah, so it's all and again, with misdiagnosis and all of that. So that's a whole situation going on, right there. So that's why, that's how I how come I, I'm like, there is a void that needs to be filled, right? So it's all of the complications that comes out from misdiagnosis and her living through that all her life. Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 09:54 Now is, is she and your family still in Nigeria, or did they move over here too?   Freda Uwa ** 09:59 I know my my mom and my sister are still in Nigeria. In   Michael Hingson ** 10:04 Nigeria, well, I assume you go back and visit every so often. That's all we have. Yeah, you gotta do that well and and when you can't go back, you've got things like zoom so you can still look at them and talk to them.   Freda Uwa ** 10:18 Absolutely we, we thank God for technology. So it's all of that, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 10:24 yeah, technology has certainly made a significant difference in the whole art of communications over the past, oh, especially 10 years, but certainly in the last five years, just because of what the pandemic has done and so on, for sure. So how did you end up specifically deciding to get involved with independent living centers, and how did you end up being the executive director of independent living Canada?   Freda Uwa ** 10:55 Oh, interesting. That's a great question. Michael, so I, I, I say this always, my story and journey has always been that of resilience and just a journey of self discovery and awareness. I'll give you, I'll share with you. Michael, right, as I came into Canada in 2020, at the beginning of COVID, I was in, I was in a I was in on a conversation with a friend at the time, and he was sharing an experience, and was speaking to me about somebody, and speaking to me about a newcomer who had come into Canada and was leading an organization like an like an administrator at the time, and this history was about the consequences of mismanagement of some sort. Hm, and he, he let me know that the, the woman got into trouble, and, you know, was relieved of her job and all of that because she didn't do something, right? But while I was listening to that story, a seed was planted in me that, hold on, I've got this experience, I've got this much knowledge, I've got this much abilities, I've got this much skills. Then if a newcomer could transfer all of that here to Canada and do all of this. That means there is space for me somewhere. So it wasn't more so of yes, what you shouldn't do, it's something, it didn't come to me as though, like it's a test for your competence or something. I knew there was, there was a possibility somewhere. So that was when the seed was planted in me. And as soon as I began to look for jobs, I started looking out for the jobs that aligned with what I had done, including my executive executive leadership in Nigeria. And that was how it happened that I was done schooling, and I started looking for opportunities, and I went out to apply for jobs that would speak to my competencies and and the rest that says history. So I we, that's how the seed was planted. I'm like, okay, yeah, there I go, and I'll tell you what happened with my very first interview and Michael, I didn't get called for an interview and Ed role. And I, I'm not sure if you know about the process with executive hiring, it's a lot of steps, like you do the phone the phone interview, you do the writing, you go for, like a first phase, a second phase, and all of that. It was really daunting. And I went through all the phases, and I was feeling really confident and good about it. I actually went through to the last phase where I had to go in person to see the outgoing Ed who was retiring at the time, and kind of like had a meeting slash interview situation that it looked as though I was getting on boarded, but it wasn't, like official. So in my head, I felt that this is it. I'm there, yeah. So I did, I did all of that. I went back home, and a couple of days later I got the email, you know, one of those emails, and I'm like, oh, oh, no. So this is it's that's no way on from here that this is it. I And then like, Oh, thank you for your time and all of that. So we've moved on to XYZ, and you know all of those words, I'm like, oh, in that moment, I didn't feel like, I didn't feel too bad, because I felt like, Oh, this is my first and I got this close, then that's something, right? So yeah, I'm like, okay, that's not too bad. But what happened next was what really got me thinking I continued my job search, right? So a couple of weeks later, I get an email from the same organization asking if I. Still available for the role and for the job. And I was excited again. I'm like, Oh yes, I can. Why not? And then in their response there, they wanted to have a second interview, set of interview. I'm like, hold on, what's going on? I'm like, okay, that's not too bad. I will, I will make myself available for the interview, and I did, and I think we had the next one, and I got really worried. And then after that, I got an email saying the same thing, that they had given the role to somebody else, and that got me angry. Yeah, right. So I needed to know what it was. You name it. Let me what I so I sent out an email to them. I'm like, Oh, hold on. So what's all this? What's, what's, what's going on, let me know why my like, I just needed to know. And then they responded to say that I was over qualified for the role. I'm like, that's, that's, that's a dumb answer, right? So, Hawaii, why would you say that to be now that, now that I'm thinking about it, right? So I took all of that in, and I decided to move on from there and just pick up the lessons. And then went forward with that. So that experience in itself shapes me into the resilience of not just giving up, because I knew I was very close to getting what I wanted right. So I went on from there, and I became an addictions case manager, addictions and mental health case manager, a job that I really, really love. It was so beautiful I had. I had the privilege of going to flying into the isolated reserves in those little, small airplanes and all of that. So I give so many emergency responses, whether it's flawed calls for suicide and all of those mental health work. I really loved that job, but it was so heavy on me, and it was at the time when I was going through a lot in my my own self, like emotionally and my mental health, I was by myself in Canada. At the time, my my family, that my husband and kids were still in Nigeria. So the weight of all of that was too much on me, like there was nothing to decompress to, if you know what I mean, right? So you go, you hear all of these heavy things, and you cannot really process your own feelings. And then I'm also thinking about the same situation, and I'm thinking about, Oh, what's going on? What's my what's what's going on in my head? So I didn't, I didn't, I didn't stay too long on that job. And then I and also I left because it was too much, like I said, even though I loved the job. And then I went on to become the CEO of an Ability Center, which is also supporting individuals with intellectual disabilities. And from there on, was when I, I moved on to il Canada, and I'm loving it. So that's my story of resilience.   Michael Hingson ** 17:59 Yeah, it is really tough when you're you're by yourself, and you don't have anyone to talk to and to share things with, because talking with someone, talking things out, is always important and is always helpful, because it helps you put things in perspective. And when you can't do that, it just bottles up inside of you, and that's that's not good. Mm, hmm,   18:23 absolutely,   Michael Hingson ** 18:26 well, but, but you, you moved on. So how long have you been in il Canada? Now   Freda Uwa ** 18:33 going on one year? Oh, September, yes. So it's just what going on one year in September. So, yeah, feel very new.   Michael Hingson ** 18:42 So tell me a little bit about il Canada and what you do and so on.   Freda Uwa ** 18:47 Okay, so I'll Canada. It's basically a network of independent living centers across the country. It started in, it was it started in it started as a movement a long time ago, in 1986 it was formerly known as Canadian Association of Independent Living Centers, and now now independent living Canada. So it's all about providing a collective voice on the on national issues for all of our member centers and fostering and maintaining partnerships in that regard, building capacity and scaling what we're doing, especially on the national level. So our member centers have the via our foot soldiers in different different communities and different local centers. So we are we've got il member centers in almost across every project, every province in Canada. It's in Saskatchewan, Ontario, you name it, it's everywhere. So IO Canada, it's we thrive on. Four core pillars of service, which would be independent living, skills development, peer support, Networking and Information and all of the resources that we do. So we provide a national voice for all 24 member centers, and they are all run by different executive directors and offering unique needs to their communities,   Michael Hingson ** 20:25 so and so. What you do is, do you do you coordinate services? Do you act as more of a case manager and distribute funds? Or what does IO Canada do for the 24 agencies, right?   Freda Uwa ** 20:43 Great question. So these, like I said, the 24 agencies or centers, are independent of like they are autonomous, like the source funds and all of that, even though we provide some substantial but it is really, they are very independent of what we do, so we are like a collective voice for the member centers on the national level. So that's what IEL Canada does. We there's monthly meetings, there is all of the accreditations that we do and just ensuring that all accredited member centers are operating within our four core pillars of service that promotes independent living for people with cross disabilities.   Michael Hingson ** 21:29 What relationship or how do you interact with organizations like the Canadian National Institute for the Blind and so on.   Freda Uwa ** 21:39 So that in itself. It's it will totally depend on what projects we're working on, right? So it would be project based or research based, right? So we are a national voice for all of our centers. So if, if any of our Centers are partnering, partnering with any individual Association, that is the partnership we're seeking, and we will support and encourage them. But on the national level, it's usually project based or collaboration in terms of research or information, or whatever that looks like, or maybe communities of practice and all of that.   Michael Hingson ** 22:17 Well, how does well, let me rephrase that, what does CNIB do, as opposed to what the independent living centers do? Do you know,   Freda Uwa ** 22:28 again, each independent living center is operating on different like they have, they have tailored made programs for their centers, right? So some people have communities that they have programs that support vision loss or the blind and all the other centers who have programs for youth, employment, housing, transportation. So they are all direct funding to support independent living in terms of managing your resources and other skills. So for in that regard, it would naturally lie with the centers and how they want to collaborate with cnid. So it's for us at the national level. It would mostly be on research or any collaboration on the project, but to actually reach out to the consumers or participants, it will be the independent centers, like the member centers themselves, right?   Michael Hingson ** 23:24 So a CNI be more of a funding agency or, or, well, I know that they do provide services, but I was just trying to understand where the overlap is, or, or how the two types of organizations interact with each other.   Freda Uwa ** 23:39 I'm not familiar with their model, like, I don't know about their model, yeah, but most, what we do with every organization, or most organization is collaboration or partnership, right? So they may have a different funding model for us at IELTS Canada. It's it's center is working on our four core pillars, providing different programs and services within these four populars, and they're at liberty to fill up make these programs to suit their communities.   Michael Hingson ** 24:09 Okay? So they they may work, and they may get some funding from CNIB for specific projects and so on. But I, I understand that you're dealing with being closer to the individual communities where   Freda Uwa ** 24:22 you are. Oh, for sure, that's with the member centers. Yeah, for myself, I am, like the administrative head for the national organization, the National aisle, right,   Michael Hingson ** 24:31 right. Yeah, right. Well, so when, when you've been working and you've you've now been doing some of this for a while, what would be for you a pivotal moment, given our philosophy, or our title, unstoppable mindset, where is a pivotal moment in your life, where you had to really demonstrate resilience? It's an unstoppability.   Freda Uwa ** 25:03 I like that question so much. I I kind of feel like, um, I've had so many of those moments, right? I've had the moment where I had to face the pandemic, pandemic all by myself, without my family here. And I'm like, No, so I have to be here for me. I have to be here for my family as well. So all of those is all of that. It's a part of the package, right? And then I also had the moment where I started on that conversation with my friend that spoke about that lady, and it planted a seed in my heart, like I was there was something for me if I was going to transfer all of my skills from Nigeria. I could do it right and and then again, the next big thing that happened to me was having a meltdown on my job as a as a case manager for mental health and addictions. So all of those moments left me, like you said, with that unstoppable mindset, like growth is not always linear, like you get bumps, you get heat, and then you have to get up and you keep moving. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 26:13 yeah, you you've got to make that decision to do that, to make the decision to to move forward. And that's an individual choice, but when you decide to do it and you stick to it, you get such a wonderful feeling of accomplishment, don't you Exactly,   Freda Uwa ** 26:30 exactly, that's, that's, that's, yeah, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 26:35 which is, which is pretty cool. So you are able to, you know, to move forward and do the things that you do, the things that you got to do. So you're also unusual in another way, in terms of being the first black executive director of independent living Canada and one of the first two black leaders in a lot of different areas and aspects of the whole rehabilitation and independent living environment. Does that get to be a challenge for you, or do you regard that as a plus or what?   Freda Uwa ** 27:15 I think it's both, because it comes with a lot of pressure, for sure, and then there is that feeling of who, what's here, like, am I finding somebody that looks like me, and what's there to learn from? Right? So, who's gone ahead before me, and where's the where is all the mentorship? Where would that come from? Right? But I also find that I've got a lot, a ton of support from my board. Yeah, ever so supportful, self supportive and yeah, so that has helped. So it's a feeling of of there is work to be done, and, of course, a feeling of accomplishment of some sort, but more so that I I've got a bucket to feel with what's been expected, like I need to give back with what's been poured into me, right? So that's all of that, but in one hand, in the one hand, I see that I there is a gap. There is a gap in representation, for sure. I know we talk about inclusion in terms of people with disabilities, and also thinking about building capacity for young leaders and newcomer leaders coming forward, and making sure that they find a mentorship and some form of support to build capacity in leadership. In that regard, because they are usually different, different levels of expectations from a racialized person as a leader and a non racialized person. So it's all of that, all of that pressure for sure, and having to face that, and constantly telling your story or living through barriers, even as a leader, you have constant barriers you keep facing and then kind of rewriting your own story. I would say,   Michael Hingson ** 29:07 now you don't have a disability in any traditional sense, right? I   Freda Uwa ** 29:12 would say undiagnosed, because I don't know. I feel like I know I have something, but it's undiagnosed. So yes,   Michael Hingson ** 29:19 well, there you go. Something, something to figure out, right? Yes,   Freda Uwa ** 29:24 for sure. And I've always said it, it's, it's a continuum, like it's a spectrum. So it's, everybody's just one life event away from a disability, right? So you never know until you until you find out. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 29:37 of course, people have heard me say on this podcast that actually, everyone has a disability. For most of you, it's you're light dependent. You don't do well when there isn't light around for you to see what you're doing. And inventing the electric light bulb kind of led to a cover up of your disability. But it's still there. It's just that it doesn't manifest itself very often. And the reason, I think it's important. Important to take that kind of a view is that all too often, and I'd be interested in your thoughts on this, but all too often, when people think about disability, they think about, well, it's called disability because it's a lack of ability, and it isn't really, but people think less of people who they regard as traditionally having some sort of disability, and the result is that they look down on or think they're better than somebody with a disability. And I adopted the definition that we all have disabilities, they just manifest differently. In order to try to help start to level that playing field and get people to understand that in reality, we all have challenges, and we all have gifts, and we shouldn't look down on anyone just because they don't have some of the gifts that we do.   Freda Uwa ** 30:53 That's a great way to look at it. Michael, I so in recent times in my work, there is this I've heard about social location, this phrase called social location, Michael, I   Michael Hingson ** 31:07 have not heard much about that. I'm not overly familiar with it, so go ahead, I can imagine. But go ahead. Okay,   Freda Uwa ** 31:13 so that's like, exactly where you are on your social map. I would say, just to put it in a clear way, right? So it's all of those identity markers that make you, right? You might think you don't, you have it all here, but in the next high you're you're not as much privileged as the next person. So it's being on different sports in that social map, right? So I could be, let the I could, I could not have a disability that I know, but in some way I'm I'm disadvantaged, right? So it's all of that coming together and realizing that when we when we're seeking for inclusion for all, it's actually all. And the definition of all can be expanded to mean actually every single person, and not just people with stability. It's every single person ensuring, keeping, taking into consideration that you are not always at the top all the time. You could be privileged in so many areas, and then you are disadvantaged in some area. So it's that social location concept that should, that should inform our need to level the playing fields at all time.   Michael Hingson ** 32:31 Yeah, um, unfortunately, all too often, people won't adopt that principle, and they won't adopt that mindset. So they really think that they're better than others. The unemployment rate among persons with disabilities is still very high compared to the general population. It's still in the 50 to 60% range. And it's not because people with disabilities can't work. It's that people who don't happen to have those same disabilities think that people with those disabilities can't work and so as a result, they're never given the opportunity.   Freda Uwa ** 33:11 Yeah, that's a constant struggle, for sure. Yeah, and that's why we do what we do,   Michael Hingson ** 33:16 right, which is very important to do. So you, you, you work as the executive director, is the CEO of the organization. Do you do all the independent living centers, then do a lot of work with consumer organizations and other things in their local areas, so that they keep very close ties to consumers.   Freda Uwa ** 33:44 Oh, for sure, that's the, that's that's the that's the structure of innovative living Canada, right? So il Canada and il member centers are close to the local communities. So all il member centers are community based centers. So they're, they're in the communities and partnering with, partnering with local communities to meet any unmet needs for persons with disabilities. Okay, yeah, so, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 34:15 So now you're, you're obviously more in an administrative kind of role, but what kind of involvement or or interactions do you have with like consumers and consumer organizations? That's a tricky   Freda Uwa ** 34:29 question, right? So I I've only been here one year. Yeah, I understand. I can speak to the last 11 months, right? So so far with consumer organizations, I am only, only partnered in terms of a project or a research it's still a project or project, right? So whether it's but I feel like that comes from the centers as well, because my the independent living centers. You. Get us involved in partnerships that it's just beyond them, right? So we get partnership partnership, and we need to standing as a national organization to get three or four of our IELTS member centers into that partnership. So that's the level we play. More like we the go between and giving that voice to them. But generally I am more of the administrator than being involved in consumer agencies or organizations, right?   Michael Hingson ** 35:32 Yeah, no, I understand that's I was just wondering if, if, if there is involvement, or how you ever get to interact with them, because I would think that working with consumer organizations in some manner can strengthen what you do as an organization.   Freda Uwa ** 35:51 Yeah, yeah, for sure, we're still, we are open to partnerships, for sure, but it's a process. It's yeah, it's a process, and then for sure, it's what the local centers are needing, and that's what we are doing at the national level, right? So it's, it's a, it's a two way street with the local sense, local member centers. We are nothing without our member centers. So that, yeah, right,   Michael Hingson ** 36:13 right. No, I understand. Well, that's that is still pretty cool, though, and it gives you, it gives you some freedom, and it gives you the ability to look at things from a higher level. But I would assume that it also gives you the opportunity, then to look at how you can work and make a difference in the whole independent living process around Canada.   Freda Uwa ** 36:39 That's for sure. That's for sure. There is work for sure, and that's what we have started doing. So there's a lot of traction happening right now, and just taking one day at a time and reviewing all our partnerships and building other collab partnerships and collaborating in other areas as well. So yeah, I agree. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 37:01 Yeah. Now, I didn't say it earlier, but we met through Sheldon Lewis at accessibe. So I guess you have, have you looked at accessibe as a product, and are you working with Sheldon on that sort of thing, or, or, How is accessibe involved with the Independent Living Center movement in Canada, I   Freda Uwa ** 37:21 would say we are currently having that conversation right now. So, yes,   Michael Hingson ** 37:28 well, so, so at this point, you're looking to see where it might fit and and how, how it would work. Yeah.   Freda Uwa ** 37:39 So we're reviewing all of that. We are reviewing the product and going through the board and test running everything. So, yeah, so just reviewing, what, how that works, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 37:49 So you're actually, so you're actually testing it and looking at it to see what it does and doesn't do and so on.   Freda Uwa ** 37:55 Exactly, yes.   Michael Hingson ** 37:57 What about the whole concept, from your standpoint of Internet access and inclusion, the problem that we see overall is that in our world, maybe 3% of websites have really made an effort to put something on their site to make the website accessible or inclusive, but Most places still haven't done that. How do we change   Freda Uwa ** 38:22 that? I think this is as it's it's still the whole package, about 31 step at a time, and I'm very careful, and I caution against tokenism and just wanting to do something because you want to check up the boxes, right? Yeah, what? What's the intention? Really? Are you really concerned about your consumers, your customers, your clients? Are you really wanting to reach everybody, and everybody, right? So what does that look like for you? So I'm Yeah, it's concerning, for sure, that we have such low percentage of people of websites who are looking into being more accessible and not just checking off one box, right? So, and it's broad, it's really broad because accessibility is it's not just one thing, right? So internet accessibility for sure, it's the next big thing. And at our planned AGM coming up here in September, we are, that's the key, the the main theme of our of our meeting, it's AI and the future of accessibility for all. So, yeah, so that is a good thing that you asked it, because we are looking to build a future where accessibility is second nature to everybody.   Michael Hingson ** 39:51 Someone said something once, and I think is a is a really wonderful thought to have, and that is that we a. All look forward to the day when we are so inclusive that access, or accessibility is a term that we forget and never have to use anymore, because it's just so automatic.   Freda Uwa ** 40:12 I like that. I like that. That's second nature, right? So we don't have to think about it like this is what it is. It's universal. It's a universal design. This is right. Want to see, right? So, and again, like I said, it's not you're not doing it for them. It's not an us, them conversation. It's for all of us, because it's one live event from one disability to the next. So it's creating a world where everybody can thrive, and I empowered to thrive equally, right? Yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 40:44 I think that is that is so important, and I hope that that day comes sooner than later, but I think it's still a ways off, but I think it is one of those things to really strive for, because as as you and I have both talked about today, everyone has gifts. We all don't have the same gifts, and no one should look down on anyone else just because we're different in some way. And yet, unfortunately, all too often, we do, which is a problem.   Freda Uwa ** 41:20 Yeah, that's right, Michael. And that's, it's really sad how the world has turned humans against humans. And that's, that's not the world we want to see. You know, I'll tell you something that's a renowned writer in Nigeria, Chimamanda dice, she spoke about the evil word for love. IBO is my local dialect, my native tongue, and the evil word for love, love is if unanya And that, what that literally translates to is, I see you, so Michael, if I love you, I see you beyond anything else. I see you beyond your abilities, beyond your color, beyond any other identity marker that defines you. I just see your soul. So sometimes I feel like we African language is not fully the English doesn't do the English language doesn't do justice to the weight of our native tongue, right? So that's love seeing humans, seeing who you are, for who you are, nothing beyond that. So that's really, that's, that's the world I look forward to having, for sure. And   Michael Hingson ** 42:36 it is so important that we all look at each other for who we are because one characteristic doesn't define us, blindness doesn't define me, your being from Nigeria doesn't define you. It's part of your experience, but it doesn't define you, and it shouldn't.   Freda Uwa ** 42:57 Yeah, right, yeah, absolutely, yeah. Then   Michael Hingson ** 43:01 we have politicians, and they're all defined by what they do when we can pick on them. So it's okay, that's a smart move. But, but, but really, you know, it's one characteristic or whatever doesn't define us. It is part of our makeup, but it doesn't define us. And I think that's very important, that we really understand that we are the sum of everything that we do and that we are, and a lot of what we do and what we are comes from the choices that we make. And that's why I really like unstoppable mindset, because it's a podcast that really helps to show people who listen and watch that they are more unstoppable than they think they are, and what we really need to do is to bring that unstoppability out in everyone, and if it comes out in the right way, it also means that we learn how to work more closely with each other. And I think it is important that we start having more of a sense of community throughout the whole world. I   Freda Uwa ** 44:04 like that, Michael and I like your tie into the unstoppable mindset, like it's in the mind. Yeah, the seed is planted in the mind, and that's where it blossoms, and it's all the environment you give to that seed. How are you cultivating your thoughts? How are you, what are you feeding your thoughts with, right? So, how are you accepting values and projecting values and all of that? So it's in the mind. And so once the mindset is unstoppable, you can thrive, you can bloom, you can become, you can be established in every sphere that you choose. So that's, that's, that's the goal, really so, yeah, that's the unstoppable mindset for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 44:45 Yeah, it's very important. And I think that we all usually underestimate ourselves, and we need to work on not doing that. We need. To demand more of ourselves about what we do, and if we do that, and the more of that that we do, we'll find that we can go out of our what people call comfort zones, a whole lot more, and we'll find that we can do a lot more than we think that we can.   Freda Uwa ** 45:17 Yeah, and I like that. And to your point, Michael, I also, I also feel like we also need to give ourselves credits for all of what we've been through. Yeah, keep yourself the the empathy, like, take time, take a break, recharge and come back right. Like I said, growth isn't always linear. Sometimes you need to take those pauses and recognize that you need to stop, recharge and then go for it, right? So just give yourself credit for showing up. That's it. That's enough, right? You've shown up, that's enough. You've done the step one. That's enough. Show yourself some empathy, show yourself love, and that's the way it radiates to people around you, for sure,   Michael Hingson ** 46:02 I like the idea of showing yourself love you should and and I mean that, and I know that you do as well. Mean it in a positive way. It doesn't have anything to do with ego and thinking you're the greatest thing in the world since sliced bread, but it is recognizing who you are and showing yourself as much as anything that that love is also a significant part of or ought to be a significant part of your life.   Freda Uwa ** 46:29 Mm, hmm, yeah, absolutely. And show up for yourself. Show up for yourself. Yeah, you can be so many things to so many people, but how about yourself? Right? Don't show up for yourself and let yourself enjoy you as a person, right?   Michael Hingson ** 46:46 Well, I love to say, I used to say I'm my own worst critic, and I've learned that's not the right thing to say. The right thing to say is I'm my own best teacher, because I'm the only one that can really teach me. And I think that's so important to make things positive. And when something happens, it's not so positive, figure out what the issue is and how to address it, but you, but you can do that. We all can do that. Yes, right? So I think it's so important, and you can do that with   Freda Uwa ** 47:15 love as well, right? Yes, absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 47:19 That's a good one. So you do a lot of work in managing projects and so on. So what? How did you how did you get to be a good project manager? Because that's part of, obviously, what you do. Was it something you were trained to do? You've picked up on. You have a natural talent for it?   Freda Uwa ** 47:35 Yes. So I've got training in project management. And of course, like it's I did events management back in Nigeria. So it's all of that, that training, the experience and, of course, natural talents to knowing how to manage people and little programs. So that's built into the training that I also had. So yeah, it's all of everything, a bit of everything, I would say,   Michael Hingson ** 47:58 What do you think makes a good leader. That's a toughie, I know. Oh, right, Michael, you   Freda Uwa ** 48:05 don't want to do this.   Michael Hingson ** 48:09 This sounds dangerous.   Freda Uwa ** 48:10 I know, right? So, yeah. So you know what I used to say? I try, I try to make people happy, right? But it's a really difficult job to be a leader, really difficult one. But my concept of leadership is showing people how to follow. So my concept is building leaders right modeling the way for people to follow. So a good leader is a servant leader. They are listening. And you're also wanting to build leaders, and that is giving empowering your following to do as you what you've done. So you're showing them you're doing it, and you're ensuring that you're leaving no one behind. So a good leader is leading and moving her team from behind. That's my That's That's the summary of what I would say. But then that doesn't always mean you're making people happy, because I always tell I say this sometimes, that if you want to make everybody happy, you go sell ice cream, you don't want to take a leadership role, because you you might hurt some people, for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 49:27 Well, I think also it's important to to say that good leaders, and you, you mentioned it, train other people and teach other people how to be leaders. I think one of the most important things, and I always said it to every person I ever hired, was I didn't hire you so I could boss you around my hiring you because you convinced me you could do the job I'm hiring you to do. But what you and I have to do together is to figure out how I can add value and. And enhance what you do. And that's really a tricky and challenging thing, because it isn't necessarily something that, as the official leader, if you will, is is best done by me. It's oftentimes better done by the people I hire who observe me and observe all that goes on around us. And who will come and say, here's how I think I can do better with your help, and here's how I how I think you can add value to what I do. And you know, I've hired a lot of people who can't do that. They can't go there. They're just not used to that kind of model. But I do know that the ones who who understand it and who accept it and who follow through on it, those people do really well, because we learn to compliment each other and their skills and my skills, which are different, but can coalesce together to mean that the sum of the parts, or the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, because we work together.   Freda Uwa ** 51:13 That's right, Michael, that's right. And you've said it right there. Like a good leader is only as good you as a leader, you're only as good as your team, right? So you want to make the team work, right? So, yeah, that's, that's, that's my view on leadership as well. What, what's my team doing, and how am I supporting them to to thrive and become,   Michael Hingson ** 51:36 yeah, yeah, that's, that's really important, and I think that's really a big part of leadership. Certainly, leadership has to motivate and and overall coordinate the efforts of what the team does, but the best leaders also know when to let someone else take the lead because they've got better skills in a particular arena or project than someone someone else does   Freda Uwa ** 52:05 absolutely, yeah, yeah, for sure. So,   Michael Hingson ** 52:09 in addition to being the executive director of independent living Canada, what else do you do? What are your other passions or hobbies, or what other kinds of things do you like to get involved in   Freda Uwa ** 52:22 alright, that's fun. I am a red seal endorsed chef. So I cook. I love to cook. That's my escape. I cook for family. I cook for friends. I'm involved in my local community here in Saskatoon, and my local cultural community. So all of that are the things I do, and more. So I am just about publishing my first book I started a long time ago. And so, yeah, I'm also an author at night. And yeah, so yeah, I'm excited about my book. It's called Jollof life, and I'm excited for sure. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 53:04 when will it be published?   Freda Uwa ** 53:09 I don't have a date yet, but I will, I will let you know soon enough.   Michael Hingson ** 53:14 So roughly, when do you think it will be published? Just, I mean, is it six months away, a year or three months or   Freda Uwa ** 53:20 I'm thinking, I'm thinking, six months away. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 53:24 okay, cool. Well, that's exciting. That's exciting that you're, you're working on a book.   Freda Uwa ** 53:32 So do you know what Jollof is? Michael, no, what is that? Tell me. Let me. Let me coach you. So Jollof is it's a dish in Africa. It's, it's a type of rice that is cooked into my tomato, tomato, tomato broth and meat stock. And it's really, really flavorful. It's red, it's rich, and all of that. It's so good that, like I have, I'm a caterer in Nigeria. I know I need to say that when I was in Nigeria, I was a caterer. So if you go to an event, you must have a stand for Jollof rice. So it's really, it's really that good that there is a saying in Nigeria that any party without Jollof rice is just a meeting, right? There you go. It's, that is that good? So I call Jollof right, the queen of the buffet. So it's, it has to be there. It just has to be there. And it's so relevant that there is an online feud amongst African countries of Who makes the best job, right? So it's, that good, right? So I took that idea and turned that into life. What's what life that is, what makes you so relevant at what you do, and that's why I'm I switched that around to Jollof life, right? Just standing out and being the queen of your life, or the. Of your life and owning that space and just being as relevant and and having to dominate your space. So I cooked through a part of the love, right, while writing that book, and I was expressing myself through the Arabs and the flavors and cooking life through that book. So that's what the book is about.   Michael Hingson ** 55:18 Oh, that's exciting. And it makes sense that that's the title. And I kind of figured maybe that was sort of what it was when you said jolla life. But it makes, makes perfect sense, what's your favorite thing to cook?   Freda Uwa ** 55:32 And now, now that you now that you know, then it's Jollof. Of course. It's chill off.   Michael Hingson ** 55:39 What's your second favorite thing to cook. Oh,   Freda Uwa ** 55:42 pasta. Okay. I kind of feel like, I mean, earlier in my blood, right? So I love to cook pasta. That's   Michael Hingson ** 55:52 pretty cool. Do you make your own pasta from scratch or,   Freda Uwa ** 55:57 Oh, I do. I do, yes. So I Buy store bought ones, but I also make mine from scratch too. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 56:03 I bet it tastes better when you make it from scratch though. Oh,   Freda Uwa ** 56:07 it's so good. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 56:10 that's exciting. Well, and your book is coming. So what other things do you like to do besides independent living and and cooking or nutrition?   Freda Uwa ** 56:22 So, yeah, I'm, I'm involved in my local community, cultural community of women, so we are out dancing sometimes, and, you know, having local events. So that's something else that keeps me busy in the weekend. And I love, I love that I'm still, I'm able to to connect with the my culture here in Canada as well. So yeah, those are the things I love, family. I love spending time with my family. That's I've got men in my house and like that. I teach sometimes, and I say that I live with four men, right? So three of those are my boys, and one is my husband. So I take some time to have the boy time. So I'm also, I'm also, I suck myself in that as well. So I do some boy activities. So I, yeah, so yeah, that's my, my downgrade.   Michael Hingson ** 57:13 But you gotta do some girl activities too.   Freda Uwa ** 57:17 That's, that's when I have my me time. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 57:20 What's important to do? And the boys probably go off and do their things too. How old are the boys? Yeah, I've   Freda Uwa ** 57:27 got a 14 year old, an 11 year old and an eight year old.   Michael Hingson ** 57:32 Ah, so are boys? No girls, no,   Freda Uwa ** 57:37 none. Yet,   Michael Hingson ** 57:40 there's another project for you. Oh, Michael,   Freda Uwa ** 57:46 whoopee, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 57:48 I understand. No, I I appreciate that. It's, it's, that's, it's something, well, you have, you've had a lot of experiences. What do you think, or how do you think your overall life journey has made your mindset what it is.   Freda Uwa ** 58:09 Oh, boy, Michael, is I again, I said I spoke about growing and evolving. So that's the mindset. I am not there yet, like I feel like I'm not there yet. Yeah, I'm still I'm still growing and involved evolving. So it's just not being satisfied or settling for nothing short of the best. I don't like to use the word perfection, but I want to keep going and keep pushing and getting better than my just growing and getting better than yesterday. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 58:46 going and growing. And that's that's important. Well, with that in mind, if you had the opportunity to do it, what would you go back and tell your 10 year old younger self? What would you tell that 10 year old Frida, and what and more important, if you told her, would she listen? But anyway, what would you tell her?   Freda Uwa ** 59:08 She was loud. For sure she was loud. I know she'll be. She was hyperactive, so that I know, so I will let her know one step at a time you have made huge progress. You have made huge progress. I am so proud of you. I am indeed living your dreams, and I'm hoping that I have checked off most of the boxes that you've always wanted to do. So that's what I would say to my 10 year old, Frida, and I hope that she listens to that.   Michael Hingson ** 59:46 Yeah, that's the trick, of course, is with any of us is to to get the younger of us, or younger people in general, to listen all too often we just think we know everything, and it's so difficult to get people to step back and. It's one of the things that I think we really, collectively as a society, need to do a lot more of, which is at the end of the day, at the end of every day, step back. Think about what happened. How can you improve what happened? Even the good stuff, but especially the things that didn't necessarily go as you planned. Step back and look at them and adopt a mindset that you want to teach yourself how to do it better, whatever it is that that is that has got to be a way that we can help get others and ourselves to listen more than we tend to do.   Freda Uwa ** 1:00:33 Mm, hmm, yes, for sure, and and looking to give back as well. Like, are you coaching and mentoring people. So, yeah, yeah. So if there are any freedoms out there, you can always reach out to people that would speak and leave seeds in your hearts of greatness, like see the good in every situation. Like I did, see a good in the conversation that I I heard about that lady or that woman at the time. So that is a good in every situation you meet, right? So you pick the seed that you want, you want, and then water it and nurture it to grow and grow, you always find,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:13 yeah, and I think that we, we can do that. We can do a lot more of that than we tend to do, but I think it's important that we we do our best. And you talked about servant leadership, and it's as much about serving yourself and your soul as it is about being a servant leader to other people. Absolutely. And the thing that we never, well, I won't say we never, but the thing that we don't do nearly as much as we probably could, is listen to our own inner voice that probably has the answers we seek, if we would but learn to listen for them. Mm,   Freda Uwa ** 1:01:45 hmm, absolutely, yeah. And I like I like that to your point, serve yourself too, right? So for seven leaders, serve yourself. Listen to yourself, take those pauses, give yourself credit for all your hard work. And you know, sometimes you get that guilt when you want to spoil yourself. I'm like, Okay, this body made this money, right? So I need to take care of this body. So that's, that's, yeah, that's, that's a way to give yourself some credit, like physical treats, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:17 yeah, physical treats. And not necessarily overdoing it, but physical treats and and mental treats too. This this weekend is a holiday in the United States, and I know that I'm going to take some downtime just to to kind of relax. I think it's important that we all do that all too often when people go on vacations. I'm sure it's true up there too, but it's so true down here, they go on a vacation, they go somewhere, they do a lot of hiking and a lot of work, and when they come back from the vacation, they need a vacation because they work so hard.   Freda Uwa ** 1:02:51 Oh yeah, tell me about it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:55 And it's it's important for us to learn to rest and let our, let our brains recuperate too. Let our, let our mind recuperate. But, you know, yeah,   Freda Uwa ** 1:03:06 it comes I, I needed that. I needed that for sure. It's a long weekend here in Canada as well. Oh yeah, so I'm just going to unplug and take some downtime and recharge, right? So it's needed for sure. It   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:21 is that's that's good. Well, you know this, this has been a lot of fun to do, and I've, I've enjoyed it, and I want to thank you for being on and I want to thank all of you who are listening to us and watching us. We really appreciate you being here. I hope that you've enjoyed what Frida has had to say, if people want to reach out to you and maybe talk with you in some manner or contact you, how do they do that? Hi.   Freda Uwa ** 1:03:47 Oh, so I'm on Instagram and I'm on LinkedIn, Freda Owa , and   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:53 yeah, is UWA, yes,   Freda Uwa ** 1:03:56 UWA, UWA. So that's Frida or right on LinkedIn. And of course, you can reach out to IO Canada website and ask to speak to me. So, yeah. Well, cool. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:12 I hope people will do that. I hope that everyone has enjoyed all of all of our discussions and your insights today, if you did enjoy it, we would really appreciate you. Wherever you're listening to us, give us a five star rating. We value your reviews and ratings very highly. If you'd like to reach out to me, you are welcome to do so. I'm easy to find. You can email me at Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, so I'd love to hear from you. If you know of anyone who you think would be a guest, that we ought to have an unstoppable mindset. Freda to you as well. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest, we want to hear from you. Just before we started this podcast, I received an email from someone who said, I got a great guest. You said, If. I found anyone that I should reach out, and I'm reaching out. I got this great person. So we hope that all of you will will do that, and that you will stick with us, and you'll be back next week to listen to more of or our next episode, more of unstoppable mindset. We really appreciate your time and value the fact that you're here. So once again, Freda, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and we ought to do it again sometime,   Freda Uwa ** 1:05:28 for sure. Thanks for having me, Michael, and good luck, and very well done. Job with the unstoppable mindset.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:05:40 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

On this episode we get to meet and listen to Sydney Elaine Butler. I definitely believe Sydney is unstoppable for many reasons. First, growing up she had a speech disability as she will describe to us. Also, however, along the way she was diagnosed with other disabilities including being on the autism spectrum. Like all of us who are different from the “norm” Sydney had her share of challenges from others. However, she learned to deal with them and move forward.   In college she decided to get a degree in business and eventually she determined to enter the human resources field. After being out of college for only a bit over a year and during the time of the pandemic, Sydney formed her own company, Accessible Creates. She consults with companies and company leaders primarily about disabilities and she helps to create better retention and overall attitudinal environments for employees with disabilities.   We discuss many of the issues faced in the workplace and beyond by people with disabilities. I believe you will find Sydney's views and attitudes quite refreshing and often innovative. I hope Sydney has offered some takeaways you can use in your own worlds.       About the Guest:   HR Professional | Founder, Speaker, and HR/DEIA Consultant at Accessible Creates | DEIB Facilitator | They/Them Pronouns   It is Sydney's understanding that their professional purpose must be to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to be successful regardless of barriers in their way and that they must as a professional remove these barriers. Sydney conducts training and consulting for other companies on how to be more Accessible and Inclusive from a Human approach and how to recruit and retain more diverse individuals through the lens of Intersectionality/Human Resources as well as other areas of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in an authentic manner at the company they founded called Accessible Creates due to understanding the barriers that exist within the workplace for diverse individuals.   Ways to connect with Sydney:   https://linktr.ee/sydneyelainebutler Website: https://www.accessiblecreates.ca/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well and a gracious hello to you, wherever you happen to be today, I am Michael Hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected mean, and it's deliberately called that, as I've explained a few times before, because most of the time when people talk about diversity, they never talk about disabilities. They talk about sexual orientation and gender and race and so on, but disabilities get left out. In fact, I talked to one person on this podcast who said, when I observed you don't mention disabilities. Oh, that social justice. It isn't the same. Heck, it's not anyway. Leaving that aside for the moment. Our guest today is someone I've been looking forward to chatting with for a while. In her name is Sydney. Elaine Butler, and Sydney is in Canada, and she has formed a company actually called accessible creates Cindy. Sydney is very familiar with disability. She has some and I'll leave that to her, to you know, to talk about, but she brings an empathy and understanding. I think that's extremely important, and that all of you will appreciate listening to. So let's get on with it. And Sydney, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset and really glad you're here.   Sydney Elaine Butler ** 02:43 Thank you so much for having me. Michael, well,   Speaker 1 ** 02:46 it's my pleasure, and we're really glad that you're able to finally get here. We've been working on this for a while, and we've had to postpone a few times. Sydney's had one thing or another going on, but that's okay. We, we, we are unstoppable, so we always find a way to succeed, right? Exactly. Well, why don't you tell us a little bit, maybe, about the early Sydney, growing up and some of those things. Yes, to start at   Sydney Elaine Butler ** 03:11 the beginning, right? Oh, where do I start? Um, so growing up, I first knew I had a speech impediment, and so I couldn't say my R's properly, and sometimes I would speak too fast. Sometimes still do tell me to slow down if I need to, but I sometimes I wouldn't speak because I was too scared to say my R is wrong and to speak too quickly. And so I had to go to speech therapy from a young age, and didn't understand that it was really different. You know, I just realized that all my other classmates living class to go do this, but it was mindful, and it's what I knew. I also walked on my tippy toes a lot. So then I had to start going to physical therapy, and I was also playing soccer, and my parents told me a lot of different things to get me active and to get out there. And then we also the Girl Guides of Canada, which is like, equivalent to Girl Scouts in America. And so I enjoyed that, and that's when I started to really find, find my voice and find what I'd like to do, and start becoming more outgoing and starting to exploit when things   Speaker 1 ** 04:27 Ah, okay, so was the speech impediment a manifestation of something else or what?   Sydney Elaine Butler ** 04:36 Yeah, so my dad also had a speech impediment growing up. I think it was just, it wasn't, I think in hindsight, it was tied to my neurodivergency, but didn't really know what that meant at the time, and at the time, we've seen a separate and knew that, I think a lot of people think that the speech impediments, i. Or something you go out of and think about a lot of kids have speech impediments, and so sometimes now it still manifests as I stutter sometimes, because then my brain goes too fast and my mouth can't catch up. Yeah. And so just realizing that my brain thinks a little differently, and I think that had a part to   Speaker 1 ** 05:17 play in well. So along the way, you discovered that you were also involved with other disabilities, I guess,   Speaker 2 ** 05:25 yes, and so I think I also I kind of had depression when I was in high school. And so I think that led to me not knowing, you know, if I wanted to be alive or not, frankly. And so back to other disabilities and understanding that all these different things. So like, I felt like had to almost do the camouflage and blend in to like, for example, I say, would hang out with the nerds and be more nerdy, or hanging over the jocks and be more of a jock. And it didn't really have a sense of self. I think that played a role in that, in my mental health and being having other disabilities.   Michael Hingson ** 06:08 How did your parents handle all of that?   Speaker 2 ** 06:12 I think they just treated me as you know, their child, you know, and they, for example, they would want me to go on to teach therapy. Oh, I need physical therapy now, because I'm walking my tippy toes and my my calf were too tight. And so they just did the best they could, and tried, you know, a lot of people, I think they never tried Kindle that was different. They just okay, this is what city needs to do the best and he can. And so I am very thankful for them for that, because I never felt like I was different. I just knew I had needed to get different things to be successful, but I didn't really know the details and the depth of what was happening.   Speaker 1 ** 06:55 When, when did you figure all of that out? Or when did doctors or whatever, finally come up with a diagnosis that made sense.   Speaker 2 ** 07:05 Yeah, I think when my after, shortly after, I started college, and I was like, kind of, I'm still living at home, but really think that kind of becoming more independent, seeing that I could do some things I could do really well, and other things I was struggling with, and then going to the doctors, explaining the things I was experiencing, and really understanding that, oh, okay, this and that, you know, finding out what is happening with me and how to best help myself and help and being patient with myself. Because I think a lot of times you can get so frustrated because you don't know exactly what's wrong, but you know something's wrong. And so I think by getting that, helping doctors, and getting help, even just expressing my limitations, and also I was, at the same time myself, helping kids, teens and hours with disabilities, and I related to them so much. And so I think that's what prompted me to go to the doctors in the first place and be like, I relate more to this population. Why is this and why am I so good at my job working with these individuals, we were others that I felt like, I was like, don't and so just seeing that, oh, yeah, that makes more sense, that, you know, autistic and all these different things that make up who I am,   Speaker 1 ** 08:22 right? So how long ago was it that you were in college?   Speaker 2 ** 08:28 I was so I was in college. I started in 2015 okay? And I graduated in 2018 and then I went to university from 2018 to 2020 because my college actually offered, the university offered a duty completion program, and so that was really beneficial. So   Speaker 1 ** 08:46 you were fairly recent in in the process, I've had some people on unstoppable mindset who were in their 30s before someone was able to accurately diagnose that they were different because they had autism, and I know that it is, for example, autism, and I know that for the longest time, people just didn't know how to to understand it or describe it. So at least in a sense, I guess although it still took a while for them to figure out with you still it was, it was better that it happened now than years ago when they weren't able to explain it or or even really understand it.   Speaker 2 ** 09:32 Yeah, and I think this is misconception that I think previously in the years, like you said, it was more like either there was very specific criteria around what they thought autism was, but now we understand it's a spectrum and how it impacts, you know, people that you know, males versus females. And so I think it's like, oh, you know, the lack of empathy is seen associated with autism. But like you said at the beginning, I have lots of empathy. And I think have hyper empathy, you should have to use a thing in females that are autistic.   Speaker 1 ** 10:07 Okay, so what did you get your college and university degrees in?   Speaker 2 ** 10:13 Yeah, so I studied Business Administration, human resources. So my aunt actually, she was human resources on a cruise ship. And I thought at first, when I was applying for university and in college, I because at college first, because I thought I was actually going to be environmentalist, because I high level. I've always wanted to change the world. So I thought, you know, with climate change and global warming was like, I want to be an advocate and talk about, you know, what's it better do to help the planet? But I didn't have the math grades for that. That was one of my strong suits and so. But I also took business as an elective in school. Like, oh, this seems like an interesting elective. I'll take it, and actually did quite well in it. And I like people helping people. And I thought, you know human resources, even though we know they mostly help the employer, I can also help people in the workplace. And there's so many different diverse aspects of human resources. And so that's why I decided to study human resources in school.   Michael Hingson ** 11:18 You just avoided the math part of business, huh?   Speaker 2 ** 11:20 There is, there was still math in business. But it's funny because I actually took statistics during my college and that that math made a lot of sense to me, like my brain. I became a statistics tutor, actually, and it was so funny seeing the one eight, the 180 of how I did math in high school versus how? And now I'm doing math while also paying for COVID Now,   Speaker 1 ** 11:46 well, at least you made it through, yes, which is, which is pretty cool. So when you, when you got out of college and university, what did you do? How soon? Well, let me just ask, What did you do? Start with that. So   Speaker 2 ** 12:05 I graduated from university in 2020, December, and so that was quite a challenge, as you can imagine, because I was actually supposed to have an internship that summer, and then the world shut down. And I remember I had an interview on my mom's birthday, March 18, which is the day the world shut down. And then they sent me an email that Friday and said, if it wasn't for the pandemic, for what's the COVID variant of the COVID virus that's going around, you would be getting the shop. This is a tip, but unfortunately, now we're closing our doors because of the pandemic. Yeah? And that was very frustrating, because I was like, I could have had this traditional and it was HR. Was it HR position mixed with statistics, and I just mentioned my love of statistics. And so it was going to be perfect, right? But it didn't happen. And so then I had another interview the last week of before I graduated from my degree. And again, I said, if you just had a little bit more experience in human resources, you would have got the job. And so if I got that job back when I had the internship, I would have bought this job. And I was very frustrated and but I didn't let that stop me. I was like, Okay, what kind of HR jobs do I want to have? What impact do I want to leave on human resources? Because right now, the market is a mess. You know, a lot of people losing their jobs and don't have jobs and love companies are still closed from the pandemic, because we're still very much in the thick of it in December of 2020, and so I started attending human resource webinars, volunteering with other we actually have a local HR association here where you can get your designation from, and I was part of it, and they got a discount because I was a student not too long ago. And instead of volunteering with them, seeing how I consist, and then they actually had a big conference, and I met someone there that helped them. He had to take down 500 emails. He's like, Oh, can you take down 500 emails? Because we're not going to finish this webinar on time. Can you take down 500 emails? And I'm there, kind of with my new COVID Puppy in bed, because I didn't have my camera on, just taking down all the emails. He said, Oh, can you send it to me? And so I sent him the email. And so actually worked at the HR startup. He had a little bit because he messaged me. He's like, I'm impressed that you took down this email so fast. Do you want to come work at an HR startup with me? And at the time, new grad, wanted to get my feet wet. Want to see what happens. And so I joined there, um, but he was bootstrapping, and so he can only pay me peanuts, basically. And I was also, he's, like, he's, I encourage you to look for traditional work, but you can also get getting some experience here. I. And so I did that. And then also, then I actually applied for summer job, virtually and remotely, for a nonprofit organization called Skills for change. And I was like, I'm passionate about accessibility and disability inclusion and HR and human resources. And I was their HR clerk for eight weeks because the Canadian government actually paid for it. They have a Canada Summer Jobs Program, but they gained funding, and I made the recruitment process more accessible. I during Obama's session, I talked about disability pride month, because I was there during Disability Pride Month, and really that I posted that on LinkedIn and some research like, Hey, do you want to come speak about neurodiversity in the workplace? I saw your presentation that you posted on LinkedIn, and I was like, okay, so I did that. And I really liked doing presentations and so and then I realized I could do more by starting my own company. I applied for a traditional job still, but maybe I can get my foot in the door by starting my own company doing little trainings about HR, disability inclusion, neurodiversity. What does that look like? And, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 16:15 so when did you so that's how you started accessible creates.   Speaker 2 ** 16:18 It was kind of informally starting accessible creates, you know, just like, it was kind of like planting the seed, I say. But then it was just like, I also, I was like, maybe I can make like, wellness bracelets as well. And like, they all these different things, and make fidget toys, and have all these different proponents. And then it kind of branched off to okay, I can do presentations. Oh, I think people also looking for consultants that have a unique skill set to look at policies and procedure, to look at job descriptions. And so it kind of took off into a world of itself,   Speaker 1 ** 16:53 all right, well, and so you're, you're still doing it.   Speaker 2 ** 16:59 Yes, it's going to be three years a month from today, actually. Wow, August 31   Michael Hingson ** 17:06 Wow. It'll be how long on August 31   17:09 two years, three years, which is cool.   Speaker 1 ** 17:13 Well, so you're, you're obviously having some, some good success with it.   Speaker 2 ** 17:20 I feel very lucky, but I'm also like, the amount of nos you get as a business owner or someone just trying to put your services out there, like, this is what I have to offer. And so I feel you're so lucky. You got all these opportunities on like, the amount of people that say no to me, or, you know, the things you don't see behind the scenes. And so just keeping at it and building my network and building my connections is so important. And so and finding people, I think sometimes, as business owners and entrepreneurs, we want to help everyone, but we can't help everyone, right? And so finding that niche, okay, who can I really support here in this area?   Speaker 1 ** 17:59 So what are you finding? Are the areas or the kinds of places where you specialize?   Speaker 2 ** 18:05 Yeah, I found like, because, again, I have that human resources background and so leveraging that. I think it's funny because when I first started it as, okay, my I'm going to do, I was kind of advertising as I have HR knowledge with like, also have this expertise of disability understanding, disability inclusion, accessibility in neurodiversity. And now it's kind of been like, now people like, Oh, you're the neuro diversity person that talks about neurodiversity there in Canada or talks about disability inclusion. I can also do human resource consulting. They're like, oh, we need an HR consultant, but we want to sprinkle in those other things. And so people that are looking for that niche is really cool and really impactful, and also looking at policies and procedures, I think is because it's a huge undertaking and to really and so finding the niche of clients that they know they need to modify the policies and procedures, but they just kind of overwhelmed, and don't know where to start. And so that's where I come in, yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 19:08 And so you're able to help create policy or modify policy. And yes, what's, what's probably, would you say the biggest misconception that you have encountered when you're dealing with companies regarding the whole idea of disabilities,   Speaker 2 ** 19:26 yeah, I think the biggest misconception is that it's only the entry level position that people with disabilities want jobs, especially because actually most people with disabilities that actually were more likely to get post secondary education and to continue getting educated. And so it's really interesting to see the bias that employers have against people with disabilities. And think, Oh, you get, you know, this funding from the government to help, you know, pay people with disabilities that can't work, but that's not enough money. They're like, Oh, that's enough money you can live on that you can. Live on that and really understanding that if someone wants to work, they should be able to work. And that accommodation is not you getting more to do your job, it's leveling the playing field to make sure you can do your job and be successful at your job, and everyone deserves that. And   Speaker 1 ** 20:17 how are you able to change attitudes and perceptions about that?   Speaker 2 ** 20:24 Yeah, I really kind of challenge like, Oh, what do you currently think of disability, you know, and really making them think internally and like, you don't have to say it out loud. You don't have to, you know, just getting them thinking, why do you have this misconception of disability? What does what disability representation Have you seen in media, right? And so what really challenging what they think of when they think of disability. And so I remember, I was actually talking about HR strategy and accessibility strategy and merging them together at a conference I spoke at last year. And I was like, Oh, I left my cane at home. You can't tell today. And there was such because they were kind of like they were paying attention. But they weren't, like, folio paying attention. You can tell them about folio paying attention. So I made that joke, and then everyone was kind of like, there was like, a little bit of Lacher in silence, and then they were completely interested. It's like, okay. They're like, Oh, yeah, wait. Why did I, you know, have this misconception of what a disability looks like? And so it's like, let's get get into it,   Speaker 1 ** 21:31 and at least then you're able to open the discussion. You know, I've talked about it on unstoppable mindset a few times, but I have a different definition of disability than than most people. And I'll explain very briefly. People keep saying to me, well, disability, I say, disability doesn't mean a lack of ability. And they say, Well, of course it does, because disability starts with dis, and I say, Well, okay, but what about disciple, discern, discreet and so on. They all start with this, and they're not negative. No, disability isn't a lack of ability. And over the last year, a few things have happened that caused me to to come up with a different definition. And mainly it came about because I was at a hotel in Hollywood, California last year at three in the afternoon when we lost power in and around the hotel, and suddenly everybody started to scream, and they're running around trying to find or reaching for flashlights and smartphones and so on. And I realized disability is something that everyone has sighted. People have a disability, and their disability is their light dependent and and the reality is that we need to recognize that, in fact, everyone has a disability. Every single person with eyesight has the disability of being light dependent. Now, at the same time, you cover up your disability, because Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, and we have worked so hard to create light on demand that disabilities are covered up. Disability of light dependence is covered up. It is until it can't be, because suddenly the power goes out or whatever. But the reality is, everyone in this world has a disability. The thing is that disability is a characteristic that manifests itself differently for different people. It doesn't mean, though, that you don't have it. Of course, most sighted people won't necessarily buy into that, until suddenly they're stuck without light for a good period of time. It doesn't change the fact, though, that their disability gets covered up.   Speaker 2 ** 23:50 That's that's a very good point. Michael, I think again, that what is the perception of what a disability actually is and how someone interacts with it, and then how it impacts how someone shows up in the world and how the world views them. And so I think really understanding that, again, it's a spectrum it impacts, and then this is so many different types of disabilities, and what does it actually mean to be disabled?   Speaker 1 ** 24:19 Well, and that's and that's exactly it. That's why I use the definition that everyone has a disability. It's just that it manifests itself differently for different people. And we need to start to recognize that, and if we really intellectually recognize that, then we begin to change our thought about what a disability is and recognize that maybe it has nothing to do with how well people think or how well people can work. We just need to use and find alternatives when necessary. I mean, look at look. At most buildings, office buildings, they have lights so that people can see where to go, to walk down a corridor, or they have Windows people can look out, or sometimes open for heater or whatever. But typically, they don't necessarily open, but they have a lot of different kinds of things to accommodate light dependent people, computer monitors, but they won't necessarily buy a screen reader for a person who is blind, even though that screen reader might not even cost as much as a monitor. Today, you have coffee machines that are touch screen we provide so many accommodations for employees based solely on eyesight, for example, or right handedness, or any number of other kinds of things. And we we really need to learn as a society to move beyond that. But that's where the challenge is, of course, isn't it?   Speaker 2 ** 25:58 Yes, I think it's a we're constantly making accommodations and making adjustments or making things easier for humans, you know. And how does accessibility play a role in that, and making sure that everyone has the ability to access what they need to access, and to do it the best way they can.   Speaker 1 ** 26:19 So how would you in and, of course, I've, I've perhaps messed this up by coming up with the definition of disability that I did. How would you find accessibility? How would you define it? Today,   Speaker 2 ** 26:34 I feel like disability is more like I feel like people think it's like the medical condition you have or the experience you have, but I really think it's like the barriers that people put in place, you know, and like the editorial barriers someone's values is towards someone that looks different or appears different, someone's barrier the barriers to accessing different tools and different resources and really understanding that in disability can be permanent, it can be temporary, it can be situational, kind of like you were getting at with that everyone has a disability and that it it can it looks different every day, and that there's No one size fits all right, have disability, and it's embedded ability as a spectrum.   Michael Hingson ** 27:26 So then, how would you find accessibility?   Speaker 2 ** 27:30 Yeah, so I think accessibility is synonymous for a lot of people, for people providing access, for people with disabilities, but I define accessibility as people have resources they need to do their day to day or to be successful girls that have a disability or not,   Speaker 1 ** 27:52 Right? And it's all about education, isn't it?   27:58 Yes?   Speaker 1 ** 28:02 So in the HR world, what could, what could HR do, and how can we deal with making human resources more accessible and inclusive for people with disabilities?   Speaker 2 ** 28:19 I think right now, Human Resources HR is trained to really, oh, look, we recruit, we want to recruit more people with disabilities. We want to hire more people with disabilities, but understand that there's 25% only 25% of people that have disability actually disclose in the workplace that they have a disability, and disclose to human resources they have a disability. And meanwhile, there's probably a lot more than that in the organization and in the workplace. And so we're looking, okay, what are your retention strategies look like for developing people that have, you know, disabilities? What is, why is, you know, looking at management? Why is it? Oh, you're doing good this job, this promote you to management. Okay, not everyone wants to become a manager, or it isn't, you know, have the skills become a manager. Okay? What a you know? What other approaches you can use to develop an employee? How can you look at your culture to evaluate how people with disabilities are treated and how they feel? Is it is in finding out where those gaps are, or most people with disabilities having those issues with management, because management's not understanding how to better accommodate and support employees with disabilities. Is it the co workers making that experience as human resources themselves causing these issues, and really figuring out where the issues lie for that particular organization, and increasing learning how to better increase retention?   Speaker 1 ** 29:41 So what do you? What do you do with accessible creates and so on, to really help in the education process and to helping with with truly having more of a higher retention for persons with disabilities? Yes.   Speaker 2 ** 29:57 So I, for example. To audit the policies and procedures, see how they regards to accessibility. They have any language around accessibility, because a lot of organizations, you know, there's the ADA in America, and they have that in their policies and procedures. Meanwhile, the ADA is just the bare minimum and just coming to actually get a lawsuit. But what are the best practices you're actually implementing? Do you have an accommodation policy procedure so people know how that can be accommodated, and managers and resources know how to best accommodate that employee, you know, and then also providing provide coaching. So brand coaching, if you know, for example, for the narrative version to our disabled employee and they need a bit more assistance knowing how to better advocate for their rights and advocate for themselves in the workplace. So also working in conjunction doing a management training on okay, if your employee comes to you with this information, what, what do you do and how to address that, and how to make sure that someone feels safe enough to disclose or discuss disclose that they need support from you to better do their job, yeah?   Speaker 1 ** 31:01 How do you deal with the employer, or even someone in HR, but somebody in authority at a company that says, Well, yeah, you raise good points and we'll implement them, but it takes time. We just can't jump into it.   Speaker 2 ** 31:18 Yeah? I I say, you know, like good things take time, but really understanding that, I think a lot of times, sometimes they scared to make the wrong choice and make the wrong decision. But I think also, just like by not doing anything and not taking the time to do things, take time, we all know this, and being able to be transparent with your employees. Hey, we're implementing this thing. Because I think a lot of times management, or, you know, human resources, are doing these good initiatives, but they're not communicating that to the fellow employees what's being done. And so I think just being transparent and being able to be flexible and be open with, you know, the employees, and being honest, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 32:06 it is hard, because people really tend to think that we got to move slow. But the reality is, if you don't take the leap and start recognizing you're treating some people in a substandard way, and make the conscious effort to change it, then you won't. I mean, we have, we have seen so many shifts in the world. Smartphones came along, and everyone adopted them very quickly, because they saw the value of it. And I've dealt with people who are interested in making their internet websites more accessible, and some of them say, well, we got to do it, because if we don't, we'll get sued. And some people say, and rightly so, we've got to do it because it's the right thing to do. But when you then switch that to Well, what about hiring people with disabilities and so on, or what about changing attitudes within your organization? It's Well, that just takes more time, and I question whether it really should take more time, or should you really adopt a policy and then work to bring people up to it. Yeah,   Speaker 2 ** 33:23 I think it's kind of a mix of both, you know, I think it's obviously, it's going to take time, but also, what are you putting in place to get it most efficiently and get it as quickly as possible, to make it as much people understand, to make to really break down those barriers and to get people having these discussions and having these conversations and just challenging what the norm was in the organization, and why do we have these preconceptions of what disability is in the workplace, and disability inclusion and things are going to take time, and that's okay, but Really understanding okay how are you saying yourself and your organization are for the best success to better support all people in the organization? And   Speaker 1 ** 34:08 that's really the issue, isn't it? Because it's all about conversation. It's all about education. And the biggest problem I see in general in terms of dealing with people with disabilities within organizations or anywhere with the law, with whatever is that we just don't engage in the conversation, and probably some of that is fear. Oh my gosh. I don't want to become blind like them, and it could happen to me. I gotta avoid that, or or any other disability I might end up in a wheelchair. I don't want to do that. And so there's, there is a level of fear that enters into it, but also it is just having the conversation and starting to really make people more aware of you. What disabilities really are and what they're not, and doing more of a concerted effort to make that conversation happen, I think we'll do more to help educate and get people to move and realize maybe our attitudes and our ideas aren't what we thought they should be. Yeah,   Speaker 2 ** 35:19 and it's like understanding, why is there that fear? You know, it's like because of what how media portrays it. It's because of stories you've heard, you know. And we all have our different struggles, you know, going back to your point about what you said, you know, we all have disability in some ways. We all have different struggles. We're all human beings. We all have good and bad days. And so what is the fear stem from? And, you know, people, a lot of people, are scared to say the wrong thing, but the worst thing you can say is nothing at all, right? And, you know, and so I think, like, well, I don't want to say the wrong thing about disability. I don't want to, you know, the cancel culture, or wherever they call, you know, these days, yeah. And so it's just like, the worst thing you can do is not say anything, because, you know, just negative your own growth and the organization's growth by not even wanting to make those mistakes. And you know the difference between intention and impact. You know, it's maybe so impact someone if you say the wrong thing, but be like, Hey, I'm learning. You know, even if you're a management or human resources, I'm learning every day. Can you know I'm going to make mistakes? And again, that transparency piece is so important, because we all know we're humans, we're going to make mistakes. And I think sometimes an organization, they really put managers and human resources on a pedestal that it shouldn't be the case because Ken, we're all human. At the end of the day, we're all, you know, here to do a job, and we're going to make mistakes, and that's okay. And so really coming off the pedestal be like, I'm learning. I want to do better how you know, and being vocal and being transparent about that is so crucial.   Speaker 1 ** 36:56 I think you raise a really good point. And I think that that the issue is, as you said, saying nothing is the worst thing that you can do. But I also think whether some of us who have disabilities, in the traditional sense of the word, if I'm going to use that, some of us don't want to be teachers. We're tired of having to explain. But the reality is, we are the best teachers. We are other than are. We're the best information providers, and we really should understand and be patient, because if we know that really, people behave as they do because it's an educational issue and they haven't got the education, who's in a better position than we are to address that and and so I agree with what you're saying. One of the things that I hear all the time is, well, you're visually impaired, which I think is the worst thing that anyone can say about anyone who has any kind of eyesight issue. We're not visually impaired, visually we're not different. We're not visually different and impaired, we are not it's like Deaf people have learned if you say deaf or hearing impaired, they're they're liable to execute you on the spot. They recognize that it's deaf or hard of hearing and slowly, although not nearly fast enough, blind people are starting to learn visually impaired is the wrong thing to say, because it contributes to the lack of understanding. Because you say impaired and we're not blind, and low vision is a lot more relevant, and certainly not not negative. But if we aren't willing to help educate, then we're doing our own disservice to all   Speaker 2 ** 38:47 of us. Yeah, I think to your point that you know, it's like, sometimes we're tired of explaining things and don't want to advocate, but we're the best teachers, and we're also giving that space to it's like, do you want to share? Do you want to talk about your experiences? Do you feel comfortable? Do you feel up to talking about it? Hey, I don't feel like talking about it right now. Little time, and that's really okay, or little time, oh, I'm willing to educate you today and explain my experiences to you. And so I think there's sometimes too much pressure that of people like, oh, I always say, I'm like, ask people questions. People want to answer your questions, but they don't have capacity. You don't have the energy to answer your questions. That's okay. But hey, another time and be okay with that. Yeah. And I think just giving as human beings, giving each other compassion and giving each other that grace so important to drive this work forward.   Speaker 1 ** 39:46 Well, I think it is important to to find a mutually agreeable time. And maybe that's part of the discussion is I really would rather not talk about this now. Can we set up a time to talk about it and and. So working toward that, I think, is extremely important to be able to do, because we are going to be, by definition, the best educators in terms of disabilities. And you can also get different people with a disability who will say different things. There are still some people who like visually impaired, but that's what the professionals have ingrained at us, and it's a process to get that out of our psyche and recognize that it's low vision and blind and not visually impaired. I would prefer just blind. For anyone who has lost enough eyesight that they have to use alternatives to print to be able to function, I would prefer just to use blind. But the reality is that's probably a larger step than most people are willing to take today. So blind and low vision works for a while, but at some point, we're going to have to recognize there's nothing wrong with being blind or there's nothing wrong with being in a wheelchair, or there's nothing wrong with being deaf or being a person somewhere on the autism spectrum, there's nothing wrong with any of those. It's just that we're going to do things differently than you're used to? Yeah,   Speaker 2 ** 41:22 I think language is so important too, because, like, the you know what the professionals say, what the all the research is saying, but it's a What does that person identify with? But you know what they identify and what is their experience like? And really talking to them, to, you know it's like. And I think a lot of times we we even when we're educated, this is my personal experience. This is how I want to identify with a person with a disability, or I identify as a disabled person, you know, we preface that, and so I always make this joke. I'm like, people like, oh, do I say he's visually impaired? Do I say, you know, he's low vision? Do I say he's blind? It's like, well, his name is Michael, so call him Michael, you know, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 42:04 and, and you can always ask, yeah, but his name is Michael, and that's really the issue. One of the discussions that I've been involved with of late is sort of related to the whole first person language. It's about descriptions. I notice in your bio you have a description, long, brown, curly hair, wearing a silver necklace and a red blouse. What do you think about the whole concept of providing or needing to provide, descriptions, especially if you're in a meeting with people who don't see   Speaker 2 ** 42:42 Yeah, I think it's important. And I think and asking the person, do you want a description? I think, I think there you go. I think sometimes, by people want to just, it's politically acceptable, but really talking to the person, hey, do you need to pick up description to me, but what will make you most feel most comfortable? He was asking that to anyone. What can I do in this meeting to make you feel most comfortable? What do you require of me to get the best experience out of this? And so just asking the person, and   Speaker 1 ** 43:14 that's really the key, isn't it. There's nothing wrong with asking personally. I don't need descriptions. Now, I've never been able to see with eyes, so it's never been an issue for me. But I do know that there are people who have become blind later in life who may want descriptions and and that's fine. The other side of it is, is it really going to add value say to a meeting? That is, does a description of a person really make you more comfortable? And I don't, you know, I don't know the answer to that for a lot of people. I do know, for me, it just takes time away from the meeting. But that's but that's me, and I understand that the one of the reasons I brought it up was that a couple of weeks ago, I was involved in the meeting, and after the meeting, one of the people wrote to everyone who was there and said, You know, I went online trying to find descriptive words for people with disabilities to provide those same descriptions for people with disabilities, but I can't find them, and most of us said, Why do you need them? Because the reality is, there are a lot of different disabilities. There's no one real answer, and I do agree that we shouldn't hide who we are, but we can take this descriptive symbolism and and beat it to death so often too. Does it really make sense to have descriptors of people with with a disability?   Speaker 2 ** 44:58 Yeah, I think I. Yeah, it's like, what, who is the person you know getting and what does that look like? And so I think understanding that, I feel like there's so many things and so much information coming out about disability right now, how to be most inclusive, that sometimes we forget the nuance of just the human experience, yeah, and   Speaker 1 ** 45:23 yeah, well, and that's what we essentially told the person who asked the question, that it's not and a number of people did. It's not really relevant to do it for disabilities as such. But I think your point is, is also well taken. You can always ask, and if somebody wants a description, then give them a description and and then move on. But it is, it is something that I I've been in meetings, and I've heard way too often you'll have 10 or 12 people in the meeting, and they're asked without finding out whether people want it when you first speak, give a description of yourself. By the time you're done with that, you've wasted another 10 or 12 minutes of the meeting, which is only an hour long anyway. And what have you really gained from that? And and again, I understand that there are some people who might like that, because they used to see but I but I think that we can take it to an extreme, which doesn't help. Yeah, I think   Speaker 2 ** 46:31 really understanding, what are the needs? What are the what's the reason behind the meeting? What are the needs of the meeting? Who's attending the meeting? Do they know? Do they do the people need it? They not need it. And again, providing even, like, for example, closed captions. But like, I think closed captions are so important in the thing like, oh, it's for people only, people that are hard of hearing and but it's like, for example, sometimes it's like, oh, it's better for me to process information if I see it written, instead of just hearing it or hearing it and seeing it. And so it's a cool what is it adding to the meeting instead of, you know, yeah, what's the value   Speaker 1 ** 47:13 and things like closed captioning? I absolutely can understand. And I think that meetings should have closed captions. And I don't care what the meeting is, we should get into that habit. And the other, the other thing I would would say is that, again, descriptions are a different situation, because what does it really add to the meeting and but again, some people may really want it. So it's a it's a question to ask and then go from there. But I would say closed captions. Another one is one of my favorites. Somebody created this terminology, no Braille, no meeting. That is to say, especially when a blind person, for example, is involved. But I would say in general, it would be better to do this, and that is, if you're going to have a meeting, don't bring handouts to the meeting, disseminate them in advance. Because if you have a meeting and you're giving people handouts and you're talking, they've got to split their time between listening to you and reading the handout. And I don't care what handout it is, you could take a few minutes early enough to disseminate handouts so that people can all be prepared. But especially that works for people like me who aren't going to read those handouts, because you're going to create them from a copy or anyway, or you're going to print them in a multiple way, but probably don't have access to a Braille embosser or some way to get them to me. And so the reality is that documentation should be provided in advance, and I think again, it's a habit that we should all get into, then we don't have to worry about it when somebody comes along who really needs to have those, those services.   Speaker 2 ** 49:03 Yeah, I completely agree. I remember, I think I started doing that a couple years ago. It was like, why I even myself? You know, I like to be okay with the agenda. I like to know the agenda, know what we're going to talk about. And so I have Knowing that ahead of time is so important. And you we all have such busy lives, so even if you don't have a like you said, traditional disability is going to help you better prepare for that meeting and feel more at ease going into that meeting and going into this conversation. And it helps everyone at the end of the day.   Speaker 1 ** 49:34 Sure, it does. Were you ever treated poorly or have any real challenges because of the fact that you have a disability?   Speaker 2 ** 49:44 Yeah, I think, like I mentioned the beginning, my, my speech impediment, my, I think people would make fun of my the way I would speak and so, and I just like, I don't talk like that. You can, you know. And. That made me feel very uneasy. And then also, going back to, you know, dealing with depression in high school, people didn't understand, really, what it was to have depression, and so like, Oh, it's just all in your head. Or, like, and then I would kind of do some kind of reckless thing because I didn't like I said I didn't care if I lived or died. And so they were like, oh, and kind of make fun of me and or use it to their advantage to put me in other situations that weren't not the best for me. And so this also led to complex PTSD, and so just understanding that when sometimes people don't fully understand something that more likely to make fun of you, and not because, again, the impact work is intent, right? So sometimes they just kids being silly and not knowing really what they're doing, but sometimes in demolition attack of using someone's disability against them, right?   Speaker 1 ** 51:06 As as you may know, I worked in the World Trade Center and escaped after, well, on September 11, after the buildings were hit, and people, even to this day, say to me, Well, you didn't know what happened, did you? And I said, No, not at the time. Well, of course, you didn't, because you couldn't see it. They revert to that type, even though, in reality, the building where it was struck was 18 floors above us on the other side of the building. And so one of the things that I say to people is, well, the last time I checked Superman and X ray vision are fiction, and the fact of the matter is, on my side of the building, no one knew what happened when we were going down the stairs. Not one single person anywhere around us knew what happened, because they were all on the other side of the building from where the plane was hit, and typically many floors below where the plane was hit. So of course, nobody saw it, but, but they want to revert to type when it comes to dealing with, say, a person who's blind. Well, of course, you couldn't see it, so you wouldn't know. And that is just unfortunate, because, again, I think it contributes or comes from the lack of education. Yeah,   Speaker 2 ** 52:21 I think a lot of the whenever someone says something, sometimes it just like becomes for that misunderstanding, the missing, that the lack of education. That's why education is so important. In disability, you're talking about anything because, and sometimes I feel like people almost like the fear or the unknown fill in those gaps, and it can cause huge problems. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 52:48 what is one thing that you wished people knew? Well, it's really two questions, one about disabilities and the other is about accessibility.   Speaker 2 ** 53:00 I think I wish for people knew about disabilities, is that I think the ability that it's a spectrum and that impacts people differently, and can impact impact the individual themselves differently every day again. You know, for example, if I didn't get enough sleep, it could contribute to other environments, factors that make my conditions act up, and for accessibility, I think that, yes, accessibility is an ominous with, you know, people with disabilities and giving resources people with disabilities, but accessibility allows us all to have the resources And the tools we need to be successful, and that it's kind of the bare minimum of what you should be doing. Yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 53:50 And I think for me, if there were one thing I wish people knew about disabilities, is it's okay to ask. It's okay to want to know more. And I always will. If people ask me a question, I will, I will answer. One of the things that I encounter often is I'll be anywhere from an airport to a hotel to a store, and a child wants to come up and pet my guide dog. And the parents will say, Oh, don't go pet that dog. That dog might bite you don't know anything about that dog, as opposed to saying it's a guide dog and the dog is working. Now, some people do say that, but a lot of people don't. For me, my policy is if I hear a child asking, especially when parents respond in the negative way, I will always stop take the harness off. Say no, it does okay. They can visit with the dog, and then it gives me the chance to to say when the harness is on, the dog is working. It's got a job to do, because the dog make sure that I walk safely. But the dog. Dog isn't going to bite you, and I don't want you to be afraid of dogs just because, but you should always ask. It's okay to ask and do that. I think that's that's really important, but oftentimes parents continue to create a fear level that we don't need to have. So if a child wants to interact with my dog, I will always stop. If an adult wants to. If I have time, I will stop, and if I don't, I will not stop. And I'll say, here's why I'm in. I'm in a hurry. I've got to get here. I really don't have time. I wish I did, but I will, whenever I can, I will stop and let people interact. I'll take the harness off because the dog needs to relax too, and the dog knows when the harness comes off, they can visit, and they know that they're supposed to focus. But even so, when somebody pets pets, a dog, even in harness, they're going to look, because the dog really likes the attention. So it's a matter of of dealing with it. But by the same token, the bottom line is that I think, again, it's all about education. So I don't mind letting people pet the dog, but only when the harness is off. When I've had a couple of times that people would ask, and I say, not right this moment. And then they go right ahead and pet the dog. And I know that they pet the dog because the dog is looking and I can feel the leash move. And when that happens, I will give the dog not a hard one, but a leash correction, saying, leave it. And the people will say, Oh, don't yell at the dog. I was the one that was petting the dog and said, No, you don't understand. You got the dog in trouble. The dog knows better. I'll deal with the dog, then I'll deal with you. But, but, you know, it's, it's an educational process, but with kids, I'll always stop. I think it's important that children learn what guide dogs are and that that they are friendly. The only thing I would say is, I hope they're not holding an ice cream cone at the time, because they'll lose the ice cream cone. What would you tell your teenage self if you could go back right now and do that?   Speaker 2 ** 57:01 I would tell my teenage self that be authentically you, because, like I said, I felt like I was a chameleon in high school. And so by being more me, embracing my differences, embracing who I am, embracing all these different things that make up who Cindy is, and really living into that, and also giving myself with a bit more grace and compassion, because I guess I could do some things and things I couldn't do, and now understanding okay, there's some things I can do and Some things I can't do, and that's okay, and that I'm worthy, and that I think, yeah, I think that's it   Speaker 1 ** 57:49 okay. I think that's fair. Well, if people would like to reach out to you, maybe take advantage of your your services and so on, and interact. How do they do that?   Speaker 2 ** 58:01 You You can send me this. I have a form or a website that you can fill out, and my website is and my website is accessible, creates.ca   Speaker 1 ** 58:10 so accessible creates.ca so they can go there, and they can reach out and so on and and take it from there. Yes. And they can write you and ask you all sorts of questions,   Sydney Elaine Butler ** 58:23 if they choose, if they choose.   Speaker 1 ** 58:25 Well, Sydney, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun and educational, and I've learned a lot, and I really appreciate your time. I'm glad we finally were able to make this happen, and I hope all of you out there come away with a little bit of a different view of disabilities and all of us who typically experience that then, then you had before. Love to hear your thoughts. Love to get an idea of what you think. Please feel free to reach out to me. You can reach me at Michael h i@accessibe.com that's m, I C H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or you can go to our podcast page, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael Hinkson is spelled M, I C H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O n.com/podcast, wherever you're listening or watching on YouTube, please give us a five star rating. We value your ratings, and would really appreciate you taking the time to rate and comment. We love your comments. We love getting your feedback, and so would definitely appreciate you doing that. If you know of anyone who ought to be a guest on our show, our podcast and Sydney, including you, if you know anyone who ought to be a guest, please let us know. Reach out, introduce us. We're always looking for people who want to become guests on unstoppable mindset. And so with that again, Sydney, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a. A lot of fun. Any last words that you want to say?   Speaker 2 ** 1:00:03 Yes again. Thank you so much, Michael for having me on your podcast, and I look forward to seeing how I hope. I look forward to keeping in touch and seeing other conversations   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:20 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

As our guest, Abby Havermann will tell you, not only teachers, but all of us should be life-long learners. Abby grew up in Boston and then made an attempt to leave the cold for Southern California and USC. However, after a year she decided that the USC and LA lifestyle wasn't for her and she moved back to the Boston area. She graduated college with a degree in Social Psychology. She also holds a Master's degree which she will talk about with us. Abby held jobs in the therapy and social work arena. She was married along the way, but ended up getting a divorce. She later remarried and worked for 12 years with her husband in the financial world. In 2018 she decided that talking with people about money wasn't for her. She left Finance and began her own business and now she teaches business and other leaders how to “unlearn what no longer serves them”. My conversation with Abby discusses fear, self perception and how to develop the skills to overcome fear and our own inner lack of confidence. Abby uses a variety of techniques including some “ancient methods” to work with her clients. You will hear about Abby's Ted Talk entitled “Women's Liberation is an inside job”. I will leave it to Abby to explain. I very much believe you will find this episode enthralling and relevant to our lives today. About the Guest: On the outside, Abby Havermann was leading what could easily be described as an enviable life - a respected couples therapist, adjunct faculty at the graduate level, married with an adorable child, and a white picket fence to boot. But many of her life choices had unconsciously been made through the lens of unworthiness - choices that weren't aligned for her. The Universe often does for us what we're unable to do for ourselves, and Abby's wake-up call was mortifying. She spent a long, dark night of the soul in an overcrowded jail cell when her relapsing addiction counselor husband had her bogusly arrested for domestic violence the day before she was scheduled to move out. That's when Abby identified the myriad of ways she'd betrayed herself and shifted her focus from what she was doing in the world to who she was being. Through this process, she took back her power and, through the ensuing decades, has delved deeper into the human potential movement, trained with world-renowned thought leaders, and the rest is history. A lifelong learner, Abby's singularity resides in combining her psychology, neuroscience, spiritual, and coaching experience with her ability to transform difficult life experiences into a gratitude-worthy self-evolutionary tool — awareness done right can breed transformation. Now, she teaches mission-driven, insight-oriented people to unlearn what no longer serves them through 1:1 and group coaching, speaking, training, and a soon-to-be-launched online course. Abby's direct signature style challenges clients to up-level while witnessing and holding compassion for the complexity of their multifaceted inner and outer worlds. Ways to connect with Abby: Website: https://www.abbyhavermann.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abby-havermann-93a915165 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abby.havermann Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abbyisworthy About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone. I am your host, Mike Hingson, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today we get to talk with Abby Havermann. Abby is I find a very interesting person. She teaches mission driven, purpose oriented inside executives to unlearn, and we won't go into the unlearning, because Abby's going to talk to us about that. And so I don't want to give anything away. I've read her bio, so I know, but at the same time, what I want to do is to let her do that. So Abby, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Abby Havermann ** 02:01 Thanks so much. I love your podcast, so I'm happy to be here as well. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:05 we love it too, and we appreciate the fact that you do well, why don't we start, as I love to do, by you telling us maybe something about the early Abby, growing up and all that, and I know that we were comparing notes, and you grew up in Boston. Love to hear about that, and Steve's ice cream parlor and all the other wonderful things about Boston. But anyway, and, and I guess one of my favorite places in Boston, Durkin Park, closed during the pandemic.   Abby Havermann ** 02:29 Ah, yeah, I'm not even, I know it's terrible. I'm not familiar with Durkin park   Michael Hingson ** 02:33 because I was in Quincy Market. And   Abby Havermann ** 02:35 Quincy Market, okay, yeah, for sure, the chip yard in Quincy Market is my favorite. Oh, I didn't go   Michael Hingson ** 02:43 there, but I went to Durgan Park several times, and I heard that they they closed. But, oh, sad, sad. But, well, tell us about the early Abbey.   Abby Havermann ** 02:56 Yeah. So, I mean, I grew up in, like you said, outside of Boston, and and I think just from a young age, I kind of came out pretty scrappy, and I had a big personality. I I always seemed to have something to say, and it wasn't always in favor of what people wanted to hear. I felt like I I noticed things. I kind of always wanted to talk about the elephant in the room, and that didn't really go over that well, but I had, you know, a close, you know, extended family, and spent lots of times with my grandparents and my cousins and my parents and siblings. And, you know, I mean, I don't think it was that unusual of a childhood, so to speak, but Boston is bone chilling cold. If you've lived there, you know that. And so I wanted to get out as quickly as I could. And so after high school, I hightailed it out and moved, actually, across the country to spend a year at University of Southern California. Yeah, yeah. But that was such a culture shock, you know, being on the west coast from the East Coast, that I just went right back. I went back to the East Coast. Until later, I moved to Colorado, and yeah, that's where I spent about 30 years. Well, Colorado   Michael Hingson ** 04:19 has its share of cold, I would point out, not   Abby Havermann ** 04:23 bone chilling cold, not bone chilling cold, you're right with a dry air. It's a totally different cold.   Michael Hingson ** 04:30 But the culture shock of being at fight on USC was greater of an issue than the bone chilling cold of being on the East Coast, huh? It was.   Abby Havermann ** 04:39 I mean, I just, you know, on the east coast, people like they're harder to get to know, but they say it like it is. They're very direct, you know. And when I went to California, I felt like it was so hard to get to know people, you just couldn't get very deep, you know. Or at least that's how I felt. Plus, I had been, I didn't realize how sheltered I had been. Um. Um, and it was a very big school, and in the middle of watts, and it was, it was a culture shock for for sure. And I wasn't a PAC 10 athlete, and I wasn't, you know, in sororities, and all the things that you know are, you know, very popular in that particular area. So it just it. And I, I, I, I was so insecure at that time in my life that I think I I could not have broken into either of those, even if I had wanted to. I just in my own way constantly. So I pretty much just came running back and, you know, flew out a white flag of defeat in terms of individuating. And   Michael Hingson ** 05:42 did you go back to Boston? I   Abby Havermann ** 05:44 actually went to Wheaton College, up outside of Boston. All right. Now,   Michael Hingson ** 05:48 what did you major in at USC? And did you follow through on that when you went back to Wheaton?   Abby Havermann ** 05:54 Well, back to my confidence issue when I went to USC, I actually declared a drama major. That's what I really wanted to declare. And I never took a single drama class because I did not have the confidence. And so when I went to Wheaton, I majored in social psychology, which was something that just came very easily to me, and I enjoyed and that's what I did. Ah,   Michael Hingson ** 06:15 so social psychology and you got a bachelor's. Did you go beyond that?   Abby Havermann ** 06:21 Yeah, I ended up getting a master's in social work at Smith College school for social work. And that's when I after that, I worked in several hospitals as an inpatient psychiatric social worker in Denver, and then shortly after that, I opened my own private practice, and I had that for little over a decade, and that's then I closed my practice and ended up going into business with my second husband as a financial advisor, because he had a financial firm, and I worked in his office with him for 12 years. And that's when I realized I want to talk to people, but not about money. And I had to go back to my roots, and so not as a psychotherapist, but that's when I went back to as a teacher of unlearning and coaching and having learned some about, you know, neuroscience and ancient wisdom practices and things like that that greatly informed the psychology teaching.   Michael Hingson ** 07:15 Now, when you say ancient wisdom practices, tell me a little about that, if you would. Yeah.   Abby Havermann ** 07:21 I mean, you know, there's so much out there. And you know, whether it's, you know, the thema and the teachings of Buddha, or whether it's, I do a lot of work with a guerrilla teacher, he's a mystic from the early 1900s and it weaves together. You know, the more I learn about all these different things, the more everything is seems to be coming back to the same thing. And science now is sort of uncovering things that they've known for so long, for 1000s of years, whatever the practice is, yoga, science, Buddhas, Buddhism, all of those kinds of things everywhere I turn it's, it all comes back to this. I mean, it comes back to so much. But this, this innate power that's in us to change, you know, this innate wisdom that we have. And this, the more I you know, think about it and learn about it and study with people about it. It's we have gotten so smart over time, but we've really not gotten any wiser. Yeah, and that's why I like going back and looking at some of those practices.   Michael Hingson ** 08:33 I was watching a news broadcast this morning, and one of the things that they mentioned was that there has been a study that says that at least one in four people wake up every day and have a bad day, and they know they're going to have a bad day because they wake up with a headache or whatever, and they know they can't Change having a bad day, which is bizarre to me. Yeah, I reject that concept. I think, as you are pointing out, that we do have control over that, but we have so many people, as I would put it, that don't listen to their inner voice. And you can say, listen to God or or whatever. But the bottom line is, we don't listen. And, course, we have a bad day because we don't listen to the answers that are right there in front of us.   Abby Havermann ** 09:26 Yeah. And we've been taught not to, right. We've literally been conditioned, you know, from, you know, the industrial age, you know, and all the learnings that we had, you know, with Newtonian physics and all that stuff, to just never, to always look at our outside circumstances. And it's what you're saying is so true, like the innate wisdom is in us, and it's the last place that we ever look, yeah, and, and, and, to your point, it's, it's unbelievable. We we are taught to think it's like, oh. Something happens, we have an emotional reaction to it, and it's like, oh, now I'm just stuck with these emotions. Nothing I can do now. I'm just here with this. And that's the bit, right? Like, that's the dream that people like you and I have to, like, help people understand that. No, no, no, you you have the power to change your brain and body. You don't have to live by that.   Michael Hingson ** 10:18 How do we get people to understand that. I mean, obviously that's part of what you do. So how do you, how do you get people to unlearn that kind of, I won't even say it's a concept, because it's not, it's just a bad message. But how do people unlearn that?   Abby Havermann ** 10:37 Well, yeah, I mean, first we have to understand like that. We came upon it honestly, right, like that, that we're really in fight or flight so much of the time, that the way we've evolved was for survival. And if you're going to evolve for survival, you're going to be looking into your environment to find out, you know, what you need to do to keep yourself safe. So we're our brains are wired to look outside ourselves and say, Oh, this is the problem. I need to fix that. And if I fix that, I can be safe. And so we're very rarely looking inside ourselves. And in fact, when you're under stress, you physiologically can't look inside yourself, because you're in a state of where you're like, run by your hide. Where do I need to go? You know? How do I need to keep myself safe? You're not looking in yourself and be like, Oh, let me ponder. You know how to evolve myself today, right? So part of it is teaching people, literally, how to physiologically shift, to open up the centers of the brain that are more aligned with curiosity and community and and the empathy circuitry and all of the things where that wisdom we can really plug into the wisdom, the wisdom that's in your heart, right helping people understand that we store emotions in our bodies, and those thoughts and emotions that we're firing are creating our actions unconsciously. And it's not hard to get someone to understand it. As soon as you start talking to them, right, because you can give so many examples, they're like, oh, my god, yeah, you're right. When this happened, then I automatically and unconsciously, you know, had this thought and feeling, and then I acted this way, and before I knew it, you know, the whatever, there was an argument with my co worker, or the team meeting blew up, or, you know, whatever happened. And as soon, as soon as they begin to get curious about how their own behavior, their own thoughts and emotions, can impact the people around them, that's empowering, right? That's when you realize you really do have power. It's not I'm going to empower you to be able to have a voice. No, it's, it's being empowered inside of yourself to recognize the power that's already inherently there.   Michael Hingson ** 12:50 I love something you said, though, which is that this is what we're taught, and I think that that's exactly right. I don't think we're born that way, necessarily, but that is what we're taught. Yeah,   Abby Havermann ** 13:03 no, we are, and not only that, we're encouraged to, right? I mean, like, I read somewhere, I don't know if it was maybe in the book letting go. I can't remember, but how Freud's was really misunderstood when he talked about expression versus repression, that the idea was not, wasn't intended to be that if you just say your emotions out loud, you will release them. And this is what we've kind of been taught from ancient, you know, like back in the psychology, and even in psychology in school for you know, that degree, it's sort of like all we need to do is just express what's going on. So now we're complaining to each other where, you know, and everybody's going, Oh, you're right. You have a right to feel this way. Yes, this is terrible. This is terrible. And yes, we do have a right to feel this way. I mean, you know, right better than anybody. I have a one of the reasons I was so attracted to your podcast is that I have a child who has a disability. And, you know, there's lots and lots of reasons to feel bummed out or upset or limited, right? That's not the question. The question is, do you really want to   Michael Hingson ** 14:11 That's right? The reality is, you may have the right to do it, because you have the right to make choices, but on the other hand, is that really the best choice? And the answer is not really Yeah,   Abby Havermann ** 14:25 and not because you're a better person if you don't, not because you get kudos, you know, but because your life is better, because you determine how you know whether you're happy or sad or resentful, you know, or holding a grudge, you know?   Michael Hingson ** 14:41 Yeah, I agree. And I see it so often. I remember so many times I'm asked what you were in the World Trade Center and you escaped. Did you go through a lot of therapy? Because you seem like you're pretty normal now, whatever that means. And I point out, no. No, I didn't go through counseling directly, but what I did, and it was a little bit unconscious, at least, I didn't think about this as a reason for doing it, but my wife and I agreed that talking about the World Trade Center attacks and allowing people to hire me to come and do speeches and talk about the lessons we should learn, made me pretty visible, and a lot of reporters wanted to do interviews. And the reality is that my therapy ended up being the media coming into our home literally hundreds of interviews, asking every question from the most inane to the most insightful you can imagine, but that made me talk about it, and that's I think the biggest key is being able to talk about it, and recognizing, as you do that you're thinking about it, and that causes your brain to help you be able to put it all in perspective, whatever that may be and whatever it is,   Abby Havermann ** 16:07 yeah, and I think you know what you're talking about is so important, because I think we get mixed up so easily between what is the difference between acknowledging what happened to you and dwelling in what happened to you. And it is so important to be able to talk about it and acknowledge like the feelings that you have, and not deny those. If we just think, well, I should be, I should, in quotes, be able to, you know, be in a great, great mood, even though I feel like crap or whatever, and you just keep trying that it's not going to work you. You have to acknowledge what is. You have to be truthful about what is but understanding that you have the power to overcome and all of that resides inside of you, and it may take, depending on whatever happened, maybe you're over it in 30 seconds. 911 going to take a lot longer, right? Like you have the patience to to to walk through that with yourself, but understanding that it's not what happens to us in our lives that's important. It's it's how we react to it, right, what we think of it. And look at what you've made of that, right? Like, what a phenomenal story, what a horrific, you know, accident and not an accident, horrific event. And look at how many people you've touched as a result, and how many people you've taught and how many lives you've changed well.   Michael Hingson ** 17:26 And one of the things I realized at the beginning of the pandemic, and we've talked about it some here on the podcast, is that while I wasn't I won't say I wasn't afraid. On September 11, I had learned to control fear because I prepared for the eventuality that there could be an emergency. And there had been a bombing in the World Trade Center in 1993 in the parking lot. It didn't do a lot of damage, but nevertheless, it caused a lot of people who bought at the World Trade Center. So I came along at a time when I was hired to open an office, and in opening the office, we got a great rent, got a great price for it, and we moved in, and I immediately started spending a good amount of time learning all I could about the complex including what all the emergency and evacuation procedures were, emergency preparedness, what to do, Where the emergency exits were, and how to get anywhere, I needed to go, not just one way, but every possible way to get around. And that was something that, as I mentioned before, about physics and paying attention to details, that's the whole point of it. But what all that did was actually, although I never thought about it for many years afterward. But what that really did was created in me a mindset that you know what to do. Well, an emergency happened, and I was able to let that mindset take over, and as I describe it to people, allowed my fear to be a guide and a device that helped me stay motivated and focused, rather than the fear overwhelming, or, as I put it, blinding me to what was going on, so I couldn't make a decision. And I believe that we do have that capability. We don't need to allow fear to overwhelm us and to make life impossible on it. Yeah, I understand there's a natural reaction, and people have physical reactions when they're afraid and so on. But the reality is, from a mind standpoint, you do have the ability to control that, and so you do have the ability to take that fear and make it a positive thing and not a negative thing that overwhelms you, because you suddenly totally just feel helpless.   Abby Havermann ** 19:46 Yeah, I mean, there's so much to unpack in what you just said. I mean, you know, I guess one of, one of the things is that, you know, when I think about it's like, obviously, that's such a feel for situation. But I often think about the degree to which people are in. Fear just on a daily basis. You know, when you talk to business owners and you know the fear that realistic or not, you know that financial ruins going to happen, the fear of, you know, what am I going to look like when I get up on stage and give this presentation, the fear that you know you're not going to be able to, you know, make the quota, the fear that your boss is going to be upset. You know, all of these things are, you know, the fear of what's going to happen with your children. You know, all of this futuristic thinking, like, literally, if you think about it, I feel like we are in fear so much of the time, and it's just an unconscious process at this point. And to your point about it's not just your mind, right? Like, because the mind can't really get us out of fear. The mind just sort of chatters to itself, and the fear is stored in your body. And so really, having an understanding of how the mind and the body work together is so important to be able to overcome those emotions, because emotions are stored in your body. We can talk to I mean, how many times have you talked to people that are talking themselves, trying to talk themselves out of feeling a certain way? You cannot talk yourself out of feeling something? It won't work, and then you'll just end up feeling, you know, deflated because you couldn't do it. It's really a combination of understanding with your mind what you what needs to happen with your body as well. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 21:32 what you have to do is to learn how to step back and say, what is that is really a problem for me right now, what do I what am I really afraid of? And should I be afraid of it? One of the things that I have talked about a fair amount regarding September 11 is that I realized that there are a lot of things over which we don't have control, and if we, as we usually tend to do, what if the world to death and worry about everything in the world that goes on, rather than focusing on the things over which we really do have control, we're going to have more and more fear. We're going to just drive ourselves crazy, and we're going to continue to do what we've always done. But the reality is, and I think a lot does have to do with the mind, but it is also communicating with the body. It's a mind body process. But the ultimate issue is that we have to decide and learn how to take that control and focus just on the things that we really have influence over and not worry about the rest of it. So one of the things that I did when the pandemic started was to begin writing a book called, as it turns out, live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith. And the idea behind the book is to teach people how to control fear. And I use examples of lessons that I have learned from working with eight guide dogs and my wife service dog, the lessons that I learned from them that when we apply them, will help us really deal with fear in the right way. So it's all about learning to control that fear. And you know, as an example, what if, as I said, we What if everything to death, and most of the time we don't have any control over it, and it isn't going to happen anyway, but we spend so much time worrying about it that we don't focus on the what ifs or the the issues that are directly really relevant to us.   Abby Havermann ** 23:40 Yeah, yeah. And that that, what if question that analytic brain is really what separates us from from dogs and animals, right? We have the ability to get stuck in this analysis paralysis, and we've been sort of taught like hanging out in that left brain is really it's the more important place to be. And if we just keep going around and around and chewing on something, we'll get an answer to your point all the way back to the beginning of what you said without looking inside ourselves at all, which doesn't require really any thought. It's more sensory oriented. You know what needs to be done here? And it's really I find, you know what I've learned throughout the years, and what I teach is that, and practice is that it's when you settled your nervous system down, you know, when you stop, you know, feeding into a dysregulated nervous system that those options are available to you, and you're able to kind of stop the fear and just observe, rather than analyze, what's going on   Michael Hingson ** 24:46 well, and we really can do that. One of the things that I talk about live like a guide dog, which was published in August of 2024 is that if we would take time. Time at the end of every day to step back as we're falling asleep, even when it's quiet, and look at what happened today, what worked, what didn't work, and and I reject the the concept that anything is a failure. It's a learning experience. And good things that happen to us are learning experiences. How could I have done that better than I did. What else could I have done, but in the case of things that are a problem that we tend to dwell on, why is it a problem? What was I afraid of? How do I deal with that, and really taking the time to start to deal with answering those kinds of questions and doing it regularly, and practicing it is what is going to start to allow us to be able to use our minds to communicate with the rest of us and move forward a much more positive way, and maybe tomorrow, not wake up with a bad day,   Abby Havermann ** 25:54 right? And and, like you say, being able to do that from an objective standpoint, I so much of what I see is that people just beat the hell out of themselves. Yup, so that simple exercise of, you know, what do I love, about what, what I did and what, what would I do differently, becomes, you know, a session of self flagellation, of like, I'm so terrible and I did this and that that wrong, and blah, blah, blah, blah, or the opposite, where it's like, I didn't do anything wrong, and we completely, you know, dissociate from the parts of ourselves that are showing up that aren't useful in a situation. And when you can teach people to sort of have more of that objective focus, because they have, you know, they've built a part inside themselves that can be loving and empathic toward themselves and others that they can stop and say, All right, well, let's see what, what do I love about what I did, and what do I need to do differently next time to make it go differently, it's not, it's not a it's not about your horrible person or your great person. It's nothing to do with that right.   Michael Hingson ** 26:57 And the issue is, when you talk about, what did I do wrong? You didn't think it was wrong until it didn't go the way you wanted. And so it doesn't mean that that you intentionally made a mistake or anything like that. So you got to be able to step back and say, so what really happened here? What do I learn from it? I've learned that one of the most important things I can say is not that I'm my own worst critic, but rather I'm my own best teacher, which is much more positive anyway. But you know, the fact of the matter is that we worry about so many things so much, the Mark Twain and other people who have made comments about fear point out that most everything we're afraid of or fear will never come to pass, and we just spend way too much time worrying about it, and it drives us crazy. Well,   Abby Havermann ** 27:52 yeah, and you know what you were just saying? You know, I mean, one of the things that I bring to teams and organizations, one of the modalities that I use is Positive Intelligence, which was created by Sherzad, you know, he talks about the the sage perspective, which is, everything can be turned into a gift and opportunity, right? And when you're looking at it from that standpoint, if everything can be turned into a gift and opportunity, there is no failure. There is nothing to beat yourself up about. It's just a curiosity of like, okay, what's the gift here? And it's very hard, I think, when people are under intense stress in business and, you know, dysregulated and dealing with all kinds of things, to be able to stop and think there might be a gift in losing this client, or there might be a gift in having to do these layoffs, but there always is. There always is,   Michael Hingson ** 28:53 well, and the the other part about it is, when you talk about stress, how much of the stress, if you will, that we feel is induced by us, yeah, because we don't learn to step back and and look at it in a little bit more of an objective way.   Abby Havermann ** 29:12 Well, it's reinforced by us, right? Like we we are firing the same thoughts and we're firing the same emotions, and we're doing that over and over and over and over again, and we're dumping more and more cortisol in our bodies, right?   Michael Hingson ** 29:24 And we're not learning a thing, or we're not learning a thing, it's there to learn, but we're not learning it. Yeah,   Abby Havermann ** 29:32 exactly, yeah. And people are becoming more and more divided, you know? But the great news is that, you know, it doesn't have to be that way, right? It doesn't have to be that way. And that's, you know, why I think you know the message that that you put out there is, is so very, very important.   Michael Hingson ** 29:54 Well, I think it is, and I think that we can learn. And that we can progress in a in a much more positive way, and we may discover along the way that we end up doing some of the same things that we did, but for different reasons, and maybe they really weren't such bad things anyway.   Abby Havermann ** 30:18 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have, you know, I have clients who have had to, you know, lay off people, you know, and when you're a business owner, you're leaning off people. It feels like the worst thing in the world. You feel like, I know I've done it, yeah, right. I mean, people go into they feel like they failed, they feel guilty, they feel worried about the rest of their employees. And when you start to really unpack it, you know the truth of the matter becomes something else. First of all, if you you know are having to go through a layoff or something, you're typically anything that you do, that you're doing right now, next year, you're going to be doing at a bigger you're going to be playing on a bigger stage. So if you're laying off in your businesses this size next year, you're going to avoid whatever the problem was that caused you to have to do that when you're playing with a bigger stage, when there's more money on the line, right? Yeah, you know that there's when you can approach the world and understanding that your failures are your lessons, and sometimes God does for us what we can't do for ourselves. You know, it makes life a lot easier to get through. You know, we don't end up holding on to the same things, and we learn, like you're saying, faster, instead of continuing to do the same thing over and over again and making the same mistakes over and over again,   Michael Hingson ** 31:39 life gives us the opportunity to really live an adventure and grow if we choose to do it. Unfortunately, all too often, people just won't do it.   Abby Havermann ** 31:51 Yeah, well, I mean, I always say, like not everybody, not every soul is here to evolve. Not every soul is here to do the same thing. And we need, we need everybody here, right? But there's a there's a collective conscious, right? And some people are here to evolve to a certain place. Some people are here to go beyond. Some people are here to just do it all over again,   Michael Hingson ** 32:15 well, but those people who do it all over again hopefully eventually get to the point where they can evolve. And that's part of the issue, of course, is, when are you going to decide to do that? Well,   Abby Havermann ** 32:26 it's never, it's never ending, right? It's like, there is no evolved. It's we're evolving, right? Like, I hope. I like to think that I'm overcoming things in this lifetime that I won't have to come back and do it another but I'm sure they're saying that I'm not, you know, like, so it's a, it's a never ending process, but I think we are. We're taught, you know, that we're not well. We're not taught that. We're not taught that, you know, life is a playground. You know,   Michael Hingson ** 32:56 no, we're not. We're constantly taught that life is hard and so many other things. Rather than Life is an adventure, we can have fun. We ought to have fun. And yeah, there are times to be serious, but still, you can do that in a positive way.   Abby Havermann ** 33:13 Yeah, exactly.   Michael Hingson ** 33:16 I don't know. Maybe Mark Twain was right. I wonder if God had read a man because he was disappointed in the monkeys, but we won't go there. Well,   Abby Havermann ** 33:22 I feel like that now, like, you know, somebody's looking down on us and going, Oh, you guys haven't learned anything yet. Let me throw, let me throw some more things for you to get really upset and divided about and see if you see if you can learn now, and keep kind of proving over and over again that we're not going to learn. We need to keep, we need to keep experiencing all of these things   Michael Hingson ** 33:44 well. But he's probably pleased when somebody does learn. And so that's good too, right? Right?   Abby Havermann ** 33:50 Because it's a collective right? So the more people that begin to start to look inward instead of outward, and begin to see that, you know, they have that power inside themselves. I always say, like, I always wonder, what would it be like, you know, if, if, instead of, you know, focusing on these external things, we were all always focused internally. So something upsets me, and instead of saying, You upset me, or this thing upset me, I immediately go inward and say, Isn't this curious that this, this upset me so much. I wonder what that's about. And if I'm taking care of all of that inside of me, and you're taking care of all of it that's going on inside of you, there's really nothing to argue about. Yeah, and you have more control over your life because you don't have control over what other people do. You can ask them to do things differently. You can say you're upset about it. You can try and manipulate your life so you don't have to deal with things. But at the end of the day, you ultimately don't have control over it. It might work 50% of the time, maybe, if you're lucky, the only thing you have complete control over is how you react to something, right? And   Michael Hingson ** 34:59 that's going to tell. Next steps, and that's what we need to learn to do, is to do a better job of truly reacting, whatever that may mean in any given situation, rather than doing knee jerk reactions to something, and not necessarily doing a very positive or helpful thing. But the reality is, we can learn to listen to that voice inside of us that is there to tell us how to react if we choose to use it and listen to it.   Abby Havermann ** 35:27 And I would say, not even react, but respond. Right? The word responsibility, it's the ability to respond. You know, reacting is what I'm doing when I'm my nervous system is already dysregulated. Right? Responding, you know, is something we can train ourselves to be able to do, to stop, and it doesn't, you know, it doesn't happen overnight. And there's different things that that happen that are going to trigger you more than other things,   Michael Hingson ** 35:55 right? So, when did you start teaching and doing what you're doing now.   Abby Havermann ** 36:03 Well, I after I left my the financial advising, and during that time, I begin to really learn a lot about neuroscience and study under some mentors. And that's when I really realized, like, Oh, this is, this was sort of the missing link for me as a psychotherapist, this is, like it reaffirmed some things that I kind of intuitively knew. And so I began to start doing it in one on one, coaching and teaching in that sense. And then eventually, you know, doing groups and working with teams and things like that since then, so and just kind of bringing all of the modalities that I use together to help people get unstuck, help teams get unstuck, so that, you know, it's possible to to work in ease and flow. And we've all had those times, I hope, where you have a day where you know, you're just running around with your hairs on fire, and you're going from one thing to the next, the next, versus also, you have a day where it's like, gosh, everything just went smoothly. And I didn't worry about time, and I got ended up getting more done than I ever thought I could. You know, like we have control over what kind of day we're going to have. And so it becomes so important, because when we can go into our work or office or our meetings with our clients, instead of being hijacked by all these thoughts of like, Oh, am I prepared? What are they going to think? Oh, my God, that all of these things, instead of going in from, you know, in a place where you're grounded, and what I call inside out instead of outside in, like, worrying about, what do they need? Instead of what am I here to be of service with? It makes everything flow. And I think we need more people in flow and less people in stress and anxiety. So that's kind of when I, when I really started, started to do it. Because I can tell you, in the financial services industry, there's a lot of people in stress   Michael Hingson ** 38:10 and anxiety. Yeah, well, having sold on Wall Street for for many years, and watching traders and, oh yeah, all the things that go on. Yeah, I hear exactly what you're saying. What did your husband think when you decided to leave the financial industry and go back into more of what you're doing now?   Abby Havermann ** 38:28 Well, I don't think he was thrilled, because it left him with, you know, a lot of extra work. But you know, we had actually transitioned at one point. I mean, we were, I was thinking, God, what do I need to do? Like, something's missing. I thought maybe I needed a hobby. So I started to, you know, I joined a choir, and I started writing, and I started doing all these things, and that's what I kind of realized. It's, it's not that I need a hobby, it's that I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And we had, even, you know, started working with women, and I had been running women's seminars, which were really fun, and he had sort of done more of, like, more of the back end stuff, and I was able to talk to women and all of those things. But even that wasn't enough. And so on the one hand, he wasn't thrilled, and on another, he totally understood that I'm here to do something different, you know, and I you, I really believe that you have to do what makes your heart sing in this in this lifetime, you know? So it was a transition. But he, he's my husband's a rock. I'm very lucky. He's, he's, he's always right there, backing me up. So I was lucky,   Michael Hingson ** 39:37 and he's coping with it well these days, I assume   Abby Havermann ** 39:40 he is, oh yeah, now, yeah. And what we built together, you know, he's able to have the business and the life that that he loves as well. I mean, he's, he was doing it long before me, and, you know, we'll do it long after. So how   Michael Hingson ** 39:56 long ago was it that you left the financial. Environment and started what you're doing   Abby Havermann ** 40:02 now, that was in 2018 Okay, so I started in psychotherapy in 97 and then I started in the financial industry in 2007 ish, and then left in 2018   Michael Hingson ** 40:17 well, but I bet, if you really think about it. And probably you have, you could point out things that you learned during your time in the financial world that that help you today.   Abby Havermann ** 40:27 Oh, of course. I mean, yeah, I mean, right, the whole there was no mistake, right? And I that was, there was lots of gifts that came out of that for me, right? Not, you know, not to mention that I really understand the pressures, the unique pressures of that industry and what people are dealing with, and that informs the work that I do now. But also, even just the self discovery of like, wow, you know it? I didn't need a hobby. I wasn't listening to myself. I was out of alignment? Yeah, no, and that's okay too, because you know what? Doing something for the family, doing something for the people that that I worked with, and being of service in that way was also a gift, you know? So, no regrets for sure,   Michael Hingson ** 41:18 no. And I think that's really the issue you're you're comfortable with what you're doing, and so you shouldn't have to have regrets. And again, you learned a lot, and you recognize that, and that's the most important thing.   Abby Havermann ** 41:33 Yeah, I think having a perspective in life, that everything is truly happening as it should is is important, and if nothing else, really helps you get through a lot easier, right? Because lots of people find themselves in situations, you know, whether it's a divorce, you know, which I had that too, or, you know, things happen that people will beat themselves up about and just feel terrible. How can I do that? And why did this happen? And all of these things, and it's it, it you don't have to have an answer to that. It just did happen. Yeah, right, so, and, and what, what is the opportunity for you in moving through that? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:14 well, I've never experienced divorce directly. My brother went through one, and I'm not under the circumstances, we weren't too surprised. But, you know, he was where he was and all that. But my wife and I were married for 40 years, and as I mentioned, she passed away. And so now, as I tell people, I have to be a good kid, because I know that somewhere she's monitoring, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. It's as simple   Abby Havermann ** 42:42 as that. And do you? Do you? Do you hear from her? Um,   Michael Hingson ** 42:46 oh, I hear from her, but I haven't heard anything negative, so I guess I'm behaving.   42:51 Oh, that's good. That's good. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:54 yeah. I mean, she's she's here, she's monitoring, and, yeah, that's perfectly fine.   Abby Havermann ** 43:00 I always love to hear stories of that, you know, particularly for people who've been married a long time, like, what ways the their person shows up, you know, how you know they're here? Because so many people, you know, when I grew up, my grandmother used to say Dead is dead, and it was absolutely terrifying to believe like that was the end, you know. And so I love hearing people talk about, you know, where, where they, where they feel they, where they, where they feel their loved ones, you know, how they know that they're there? About   Michael Hingson ** 43:33 six months after she passed, I remember waking up in the middle of the night because someone or something had taken a hold of my hand as an example. And it wasn't the cat, and as soon as I woke up, then it was gone. But I know it was there, so, yeah, she's she's monitoring. It's okay. Yeah, I'm good with that. Now, along the way, you delivered a TED talk. How long ago was that?   Abby Havermann ** 43:58 Oh, that was in 2022,   Michael Hingson ** 44:01 okay, so, so the pandemic had started to lift and all that. What if you would tell me about the the TED talk, and what that was all about, and and so on.   Abby Havermann ** 44:10 Yeah, well, the TED talk really came about. It's something I think I've wanted to do for a long time, but it came about actually as a result of my divorce and what I went through during that time, and that was really when I had this kind of come to Jesus, that I realized that the things that had happened in my life that I was not in favor of were directly related to a self betrayal. In other words, it wasn't anyone else's fault that these things happened to me or that I went through them. It was that I consistently, as we said in the beginning, did not go inside, did not listen to my inner voice, betrayed myself in any number of ways by, you know, deferring to what other people thought or making. Decisions, because I didn't think I was worthy of something else, or whatever it was. And it was like, wow, it hit me in the face. It was sort of like there was nowhere else for me to go but jail. Like, literally, I was already in prison because I was not listening to myself at all. And so I had that experience, and then years later, I actually was at a an assembly for my son, who was like, 10 years later, was then in middle school, and they were doing an assembly on sexting for middle school kids, because there was this pandemic and epidemic of kids sexting. And at the time in Colorado, that was a class three felony, and there was really nothing they could do to get it off somebody's record. So they were doing an Internet safety and I was listening to the cop up there talking about what was happening, and he said something that, you know, just really shook me, which was that, you know the he would ask the boys, why do you why do you make them send Why do you pressure these girls into sending pictures? And the boys would say, well, because I wanted to see a picture of her naked. And then they would ask the girls, why? Why are you sending it? And the girls would always say, and I knew exactly what he was going to say. They they said, because I wanted him to love me. And it really brought me back to all the self betrayals I had had as a young a young woman. And, and I thought, my God, nothing has changed. I mean, that was in 2003 right? I was born in 1970 so I just thought, wow, we are still doing the same thing over and over again. And, and it really spurred me to want to tell that story and spread this word, that we have the ability to get out of our own ways, that we can. We don't need, we don't need new legislation, and not that, I'm not that it's not great, and not that we shouldn't have it, but we don't need other people to empower us. We need to empower ourselves. And so that was kind of what my what my TED talk was about.   Michael Hingson ** 47:09 Um, so the title of your talk was, women's liberation is an inside job. Interesting title,   Abby Havermann ** 47:14 yeah, well, and that's literally the truth, right? Like, let you know if you think of like, the biggest extremes of this, of course, are people like Viktor Frankl, you know, who you know talks about how he was in the concentration camps. And you know Man's Search for Meaning, you know how he was liberated, even in the most you know, horrific circumstances. And I really believe that liberation is an inside job for all of us. That is not just for women, but for everyone. It's to me doing a TED talk was great. It was a bucket list thing. I'm so happy I did it. But what makes me feel the most proud of myself is when I overcome some part of myself. That is what makes me feel liberated when something goes wrong in my inner in my external world and my inner world doesn't go crazy, I'm like, oh my god, that is freedom. When something happens in my external world and I lose it or I go into a funk, that's prison. To me. Liberation is being able to be in ease and flow, no matter what is happening in our outer world, and no matter who is irritating us, or what life circumstances plopped in my lap. Yeah, that's kind of how I mean that, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 48:36 well, and I gather that the that the talk went well and was well received, I assume,   Abby Havermann ** 48:44 yeah, I mean, I think that it, they forced some edits on it, which I understand in hindsight. I wish I had known, but I would could have told the story differently. But no, it was. It was very well received. And I often hear from people who tell me that they that they shared it widely, and it was impactful. So, but you know, if you, if you unpack just one, one other person, you know, like, it's worth it. Yeah, worth it. So it didn't go viral. You know, it didn't, it wasn't as big as, you know, many TED talks are, but that's okay, you know, people came up to me after and said, You know, I'm the person you needed to talk to. And I was like, All right, now my job's done. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 49:27 you You did. You did well, or, as I like to say, you done good. And, yeah, and that's what's important. You talk about the dark night of the soul. What is that? Well, the   Abby Havermann ** 49:39 dark night of the soul is, you know, that come to Jesus moment. And I always say, you know, when I write in my newsletters, I often write about, you know, come to Jesus moments and dark nights of soul. And I always say, you know, if you haven't had one of these, and then you're probably not for me, because, you know, or I'm probably not for you. Is really how that is, because it's the dark night of the soul. Is. Is when you really come face to face with yourself, and you can no longer, you know, blame other people. You can no longer not change. You realize that something's happening and it's requiring you to be a different person, and you see something in yourself that maybe you don't like, you know, or you see something that you realize you can't have. It's not going to work. It's not going to be the way you keep trying to make it be. And you have to come up against yourself and make some really hard decisions and some hard choices and see things in yourself that maybe you don't want to see, you don't want to know about. You'd rather think about yourself in a different way. Yeah, the dark night. Have you had one? I'm   Michael Hingson ** 50:44 not thinking of one right off, but I am sure I have,   Abby Havermann ** 50:47 yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 50:51 I think that we all have, yeah. Actually, I can. Can think of some where I was behaving in particular ways. And sometimes it's I learn about it because somebody comes along and said, You're a dirt bag, or you misbehaved, or the way you're treating people, and I've had to think about that. But I think for me, although I didn't notice it until somebody mentioned it, when it occurs and somebody says something, my immediate reaction is to think about that and to internalize it, and to go back and look at, well, what, what is the issue? And sometimes I have realized that it wasn't me and somebody's being manipulative, but sometimes it is me, and it is important to be able to get introspective and think about what is occurring and and look at what's going on and what part of it is you, and what part of it is not you,   Abby Havermann ** 51:49 yeah. And I think it's, you know? I mean, it's so impossible to really, truly know ourselves and have a really accurate picture of ourselves. We all have a picture of ourselves, but it's, it's never really accurate, because of the way our brains are wired and so continuing to be open and curious like that, I think is is so important. And we, you know, you come to your own truth, right? But I think truth is so important to be truthful to yourself, whether it's whether you're throwing yourself under the bus that's not truthful. You know, whether you're saying, Oh, I suck at this, or whatever I made, you know what? That's not truthful, or whether you're tooting your own horn, and that's not entirely truthful. No, you know. It's a you know, to me, like self introspection, like that's that is where it's at. That, to me, is the most fascinating and the quickest road to success and growth you can possibly have. It's not, it's not what's happening externally. It's, it's, how are you actualizing yourself within? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 52:58 and that's why it gets back to really learning how to step back and look at situations and looking at all aspects of it to make a final decision about, what do I need to do, if anything, to address the issue, whatever it may be,   Abby Havermann ** 53:15 yeah, and I think, you know, there's value in that. Of course there is, but a lot of times that's a that's an analysis, and a lot of times we need to step away from the analysis, and we need to just with it and observe it and just be curious about it. Oh, exactly, and be okay with what is. And that's sometimes when the biggest answers come to us. I think that's why, you know they say that the right brain processes 800 times faster than the left brain, because the left brain is worried. What do I need to do differently? How do I need to analysis, analysis, analysis. Whereas when you can settle your brain and body down, whether it's through a meditation or a heart math practice or a Positive Intelligence practice or what, whatever it is, sometimes the answer is right there it like drops in, you know, just the way you had, you felt your wife hold your hand, right, you know. And it just happened so much faster than all of the thinking and the planning and the spreadsheets and the that you that we put ourselves through trying to come up with the quote right answer,   Michael Hingson ** 54:21 yeah. And I don't want to make it really clear, I'm not necessarily advocating just analysis, and I'm not analysis, though, what I think analysis can do is lead to you opening up and dealing with the rest of the issues. So analysis may be a starting point, but it's not the end all solution,   Abby Havermann ** 54:43 yeah, and it, and we need to be careful about getting stuck in it, yeah? Oh, absolutely stuck in that place of over, you know, going over and over that,   Michael Hingson ** 54:53 because that takes us right back to where we were before. Well, right? Because   Abby Havermann ** 54:56 Einstein said, you know, you can't solve a problem from the same level. Level of mind that created it, right?   Michael Hingson ** 55:03 Yeah. And so you can go back and look at, well, what what happened? What is it the people are saying and all that, but you've got to go further than that. And so it, it is emotional as well as anything else, which is probably why we haven't met Vulcans like Mr. Spock yet.   Abby Havermann ** 55:23 Well, yeah, I mean, and that's the thing, right? It's like people are emotional beings, right? So we think that we need to work things out logically and everything, but emotions are not logical, and so much of life and business is about relationships, right?   Michael Hingson ** 55:38 But the but the one thing that we can do, though, is that it gets back to introspection in all forms. We do need to learn how to step back and allow ourselves to listen to that inner voice to come up with the best solution, because that's where the best solution will always be.   Abby Havermann ** 55:59 Yeah, yeah. So true. And so many people doubt it. So many people doubt that it's inside them. You know, they'll come and be like, What do you think? What do you think? And I always say it's, I could tell you what I think, but you'll end up working with me far longer than you need to, because it's not what you think. So let's, let's do some let's dive in and find out what your inner wisdom is telling you, because that's the only way you're going to rest, that's the only way you're going to know for certain, right, the right thing to do, because you feel it in your bones.   Michael Hingson ** 56:30 How do people who think less of themselves or don't have a lot of self worth? How can you help them move forward to becoming more confident, and I mean that in a positive way, as opposed to just developing an ego, and I'm great, and that's all there is to it. But how do you get people, or how do you help move people from a lack of self worth to self confidence? Yeah,   Abby Havermann ** 56:52 I mean, I think that self worth is, like one of the biggest, if not the biggest, problem that we have. And I do think there are a handful of people, I think you might be one of them that just has an inner constitution that, you know, is just a really lucky one. My son is one of them too. You know, he has this disability, and I swear to God, I've never seen a kid, you know, just kind of bounce back, you know, like he's here to be humbled. You know, it's not, it's not, you know, his constitution is just built that way. But I think for the vast majority of people, we're dealing with imposter syndrome. We're dealing with self worth issues. And oftentimes people say, Well, I don't have a worthiness issue because they're they have a great life, they have a great family, they have a great business. They and they can't they like themselves. They can't really relate to feeling a worthiness issue. But when you dial down and really talk to them about, you know, what are their fears, or what's getting in their way, or what's happening, it all comes back to this question of, you know, am I enough and trying to prove themselves and whatnot. And so one of my taglines is, I say, you know, stop, it's time to stop proving your worth and start owning your worth. Because your worth is there. It's always there. Your your validity is always there. The only thing that happened is you turned your gaze away from it. You started looking for it outside of yourself and instead of inside of yourself, and so it's, it's a harder question to answer, because it's, it's an evolution. It's not, you know, well, I just need to say, you know, 10 affirmations every day, and then I'm going to wake up more confident the next day, right? It has to do with acknowledging and being able to catch those if I was going to use Positive Intelligence language, those saboteurs that you know, for example, the hyper achiever Salvatore that wants to tell you that you're worth you're only as worthy as your last achievement. You know it's being able to catch that and being able to say, Wait a minute. Let me once again, sit you down and go back into who I am at the core of me, what is my essence and and aligning with the truth of who we are, which is we are not our body, we are not our mind, we we're much, much more than that. So there's a lot of different practices that we go, that I go through with people, but I do think that part of it is acknowledging that we're all somewhere along the same journey. And so much of the time it's just almost all the time, it's like one ego is talking to another ego. I'm I'm telling you, whatever I'm telling you. From my ego, you're telling me what you're telling me from your ego, very rarely are people actually, truly talking from their hearts. Part of developing confidence, I think, is an ability to align with your authentic self, where you're not putting yourself. Below anybody else. You're not putting yourself above anybody else. You're just aligning with what is real for you and putting yourself out there in that way and getting comfortable with that. And we can make decisions from that place. We feel more confident about our decisions. We never regret a decision that happened truly intuitively, right,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:21 right? Well, you've, you've worked with a lot of clients, and I've had some successes. I'd love to hear maybe a success story where you really made a difference, or you helped someone make their own difference.   Abby Havermann ** 1:00:39 Yeah. I mean, I think that, let's see, you know, I mean, there's, there's a lot of different ways I could, I could go with that. You know, sometimes what happens when people can have a shift is everything changes. So I had a client who was going she almost didn't come to our call because she was just covered in shame about something that was happening in her business. And we were able to work on it, not only in that introductory call, but throughout the ensuing year where everything changed for her business. So when I used to ask her, you know, listen, what, what do you what do you want? What is it? Well, I want to be the best. Well, what does that mean? I want to be the best, right? I want to be the best. You know. Again, that goes back to this dysregulated nervous system, that's right, if I'm best, then I'll feel better. Then I'll feel better, right? And after a course of working together and working with her team and really getting her to get in touch with the incredible work that her company does from a real perspective, not where she's just telling herself it or patting herself on the back, but really beginning to see what they're doing, and a close attention to her, watching her inner world. She came up with the most beautiful business statement that I think I had ever heard, and couldn't even really remember the time, where she said, Yeah, I wanted to be the best. It wasn't about that, you know? It's about, I want to make a difference. This is what our team is doing. This is what I'm about in the world. This is what's important to me. And as a result, you know, made some incredible changes, money, you know, pouring in and working a lot on that automatic fear that you know financial ruin is on the other side of the wall, which is just a completely internal fear, and being able to release that so that you release the energetic field around you that's holding those circumstances in place, and having a

Often I tell you about guests I first met at the podcast event known as Podapalooza. This time we have another such guest. He is Jessper Maquindang. He tells us that, although he doesn't remember the event, his mother tells him that at the age of five he told her that when he grew up he wanted to be a leader. He tells us that he always had a fascination for leaders and the study of leadership. When he attended USC he attained an Executive Master's degree in leadership. Jessper was born and raised in California and lives in the state today.   Since graduating he has experienced observing and working in large and small companies. A number of years ago he formed his own consulting company, FamiLEAD  Management Consulting.   During our episode Jessper and I talk a great deal about leadership. He describes what makes a good leader in today's corporate and thriving world. His observations and lessons are quite poignant and I would say relevant to all of us. Jessper discusses how leadership has evolved and how today good leaders consciously work to build solid teams and spend much less time bossing people around and flaunting their power.   Another fact about Jessper is that he grew up with Asthma. Even so, he worked through the condition and today has run a number of full marathons. He also loves to travel and has visited all fifty states in the U.S.   Clearly Jessper is quite unstoppable and as you listen to our conversation he will tell you how you can become more unstoppable too.       About the Guest:   Jessper Maquindang, a seasoned leader with a rich experience spanning over 12 years, is the owner of FamiLEAD Management Consulting, helping leaders and managers build effective teams. His leadership journey is marked by his commitment to fostering workplace cultures that champion collaboration and innovation. Driven by a passion for creative brainstorming and continuous improvement, Jessper is always on the lookout for fresh ideas and novel approaches.   As an alumnus of the University of Southern California, Jessper holds an Executive Master's Degree in Leadership.  His leadership impact has been recognized with the “40 Under Forty” award in Santa Clarita Valley, a testament to his significant contributions to the community.   Jessper's influence extends beyond his immediate professional sphere. Jessper has served on the executive board of JCI USA (Junior Chamber International, USA), a national organization dedicated to providing leadership development opportunities for young people. He continues to guide future leaders as a mentor at his alma mater, the University of Southern California. Jessper has also served on the boards of an advanced Toastmasters club and the Southern California chapter of the National Speakers Association (NSA SoCal).   When he's not leading teams or coaching leaders, Jessper immerses himself in training for marathons, delving into business books, and traveling around the country. In spite of growing up with asthma, Jessper has become a 15-time marathon runner. His story is one of passion, resilience, and the relentless pursuit of excellence.   Ways to connect with Jessper:   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmaquindang Website: https://www.famileadconsulting.com Jessper's personal story: https://signalscv.com/2024/07/once-an-asthma-victim-now-a-marathon-runner/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, a pleasant hello to you, wherever you happen to be today. Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected, which is more fun. Meet I am your host. Mike Hingson, we're really glad that you're here with us today and today, well, we're going to what, what has to be a California podcast, because our guest jes Jessper Maquindang is from California. He's a USC graduate. So was my wife. He lives in Santa Clarita, so he's over the mountains from where we live. He has degrees in leadership. He's a marathon runner, and that, after a story that he'll tell you in just a little bit growing up, had some challenges regarding that, but nevertheless, he is here, and we're here, and we're glad that all of you are here with us. So Jessper, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Michael,   Jessper Maquindang ** 02:22 thank you for having me. I'm excited to join you today. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:26 glad you're really here. Well, why don't we start by you telling us a little bit about kind of the early Jessper growing up and all that sort of thing. Absolutely,   Jessper Maquindang ** 02:34 it starts with a memory, and a memory from my mother, and she shared it a few years ago, and I myself don't remember that memory myself, but she told me when I was about five or six, I went up to her and said, When I grow up, I want to be a leader. When I grow up, I want to be a leader. Now, when you think about it, it sounds really neat for a five or six year old to want to be a leader when they grow up, but when you reflect deeply, what does a five or six year old know about leadership? It's such an advanced topic for someone that age, I might as well said mom, when I grow up, I want to study microeconomics, but that was my journey. I don't remember that memory, but she had shared it with me a few years ago, but I realized over the years, various leadership opportunities just fell into my lap. I remember at a young age, serving the community, volunteering that was ingrained within me so supporting nonprofits as I grew older. When I went to college, I was involved in extracurricular activities such as student government and new student orientation. And after I graduated, I landed in a travel company where I was promoted to a supervisory role, where I did get first hand experience in leading a team. And then over the years, I was just so inspired by what I did, I went back to school, went to USC for my Executive Master's degree in leadership, learn more about those best practices in the field. And after I graduated, I landed in a fortune 500 management development program where I had the opportunity to get a peek of what the operations look like for a larger company, and I can take those insights and pretty much share them anywhere. But overall, just looking at my background and the experiences that I've gained over the years, I've come to learn that leadership is really that opportunity to learn and grow from your experiences and share that experience with others. So I would say that's the early journey of the younger Jasper McCune,   Michael Hingson ** 04:50 well, certainly relevant by any standard. I I love talking about leadership. I've been very deeply involved. With it most of my life, starting in sales and then sales management and owning my own company and being a senior manager for other companies as well. And one of the things that I love to say is and I've read about leaders, and I've read books about leadership and studied them and so on, but I love to say that I have learned more about leadership and teamwork and trust and motivation from working with eight guide dogs than I've ever learned from Ken Blanchard and Tony Robbins and all those folks, because it becomes very personal and the additional challenge that someone like I have is that I work with and build a team with someone who doesn't speak the same language I do. And we have to learn to communicate, and we have to learn to build trust. The value is and the the wonderful part of it is working with dogs, they're more open to trust than we tend to be, and so I can see how to develop a trusting relationship and then make it happen. Dogs love unconditionally, I do believe that, but they don't trust unconditionally. And I was even asked yesterday, how long does it take to really develop a good, strong relationship with your guide dogs? And I'd say it takes a good year to truly develop the seamless, teaming relationship that one wants, and it takes a lot of work. So I stand by I learn more from dogs than I have from other sources. Michael, that   Jessper Maquindang ** 06:40 is such an interesting insight. I didn't even think about the leadership connection between dog and humans, and when you brought that up, that gave me another perspective to think about.   Michael Hingson ** 06:52 And well, the the issue is that the purpose of a guide dog is to make sure that we walk safely. It's my job to know where to go and how to get there. So we each have a job to do, and our jobs, although they interrelate, are different, and so someone has to be the leader of the team. And dogs really want us to be the leaders. They look to us. They recognize that value when we carry it out. Well, it works in a wonderful way. So for me, working with a guide dog and developing that relationship means that I need to be confident and tell the dog what I want the dog to do, like turn left, right, go forward, or whatever, and also recognize that the dog has some authority to do things such as, let's say we're at a street corner and I suddenly tell the dog to go forward, and the dog doesn't go. I need to respect the fact that there's probably a reason that the dog didn't go. That is to say, very rarely do guide dogs really get distracted. And when they do get distracted, I mean, if a bird flies right in front of their nose, they're going to see it, but I can tell that, and I know what's happening. But primarily, when a dog doesn't do what I expect it to do, it's because of a service called Intelligent Disobedience. That is to say, the dog has the authority not to do what I want if it feels it's going to put us in danger. So I'm at the street corner and I tell the dog to go forward, and the dog won't go probably today, that is because there's a quiet car or hybrid vehicle coming down the road, and I don't hear it, but the dog sees it, and the dog going, on, I'm not going to get out there and get either of us hit, and they have the authority to do that. So as I said, we each have a job to do in the process, and we have to carry out those those processes well. And the dog looks to Me for guidance, to know when it's doing its job well. And likewise, I have to observe the dog communicate with the dog when the dog's not feeling well, or feeling unhappy, or whatever. I'm the one that has to interpret that and act as the team leader, the confess II, the spiritual guide, if you will, for the for the team, and so many other things. And there is also so much to learn from working with dogs like dogs don't do, what if, when a dog works or does whatever it does, is doing it in the moment. So dogs don't do a lot of what if, hence, they don't tend to have the same kind of fears that we do, because we What if everything, and we never seem to learn how to be introspective and recognize that we should really only worry about the things that we can control and stop worrying about everything else, because it's not going to do us any good. And so we worry about everything. And we develop so many fears that really are a problem. I talk about that in the new book that's that I've written, called Live like a guide dog. It's all about learning to control fear, but it's about the lessons I learned in that regard from eight dogs. And it is fascinating. Yeah, there's a lot to learn from dogs, if we would, but try   Jessper Maquindang ** 10:21 very great insight and leadership well, so you wanted   Michael Hingson ** 10:25 to be a leader from five or six years old, and you obviously did things to kind of make that happen or get attracted to it. So tell me about when you went to USC or your college days, and how did leadership interact or become a part of what you did there? That's   Jessper Maquindang ** 10:46 right. So when I went to USC, I wanted to learn more about the field, because when I was a supervisor at my first job, I had the opportunity to really learn what works and what doesn't work, and I wanted to expand on that. And when I was at USC, we were reading books from such great authors like Marshall Goldsmith, other sources that give us another perspective of what leadership really means. And in today's world, we've moved on from traditional leadership, where you see a manager being very demanding and showing high levels of authority. We want to moved on to that today, leadership is more about empathy and really supporting the growth and development of the people that work for you, the people that report to you. It's all about making sure as a team, we're all working together to achieve our goals, instead of having one person send their demands and expect everyone to follow those days are not effective today and as we move forward into the future, what I've learned about leadership, and especially at USC, leadership, is being more adaptable and supportive with the people that we work with.   Michael Hingson ** 12:12 How many leaders or what kind of percentage of people do you think really understand that, as opposed to being a boss and continuing to just try to exert their authority. Based   Jessper Maquindang ** 12:25 on my experience, I would say more and more people are embracing this new form of leadership where we are supportive, there are still leaders and managers that are attracted to their power. They're not effective as they could be. But on the other hand, the leaders who are embracing this constructive form of leadership where other people are getting the opportunity to share their voices, they're getting better results compared to managers who are showing off their authority and being bossy and stepping on the foot of other people and not really giving them a voice. So I would say there are more people who are embracing more adaptable and supportive form of leadership.   Michael Hingson ** 13:13 What are some of the basic characteristics that you would define that exist in leaders today, what makes you a leader?   Jessper Maquindang ** 13:23 So with leadership, there are four Super skills that make a leader effective, and the four Super skills are public speaking, public listening, private speaking and private listening. So for public speaking, it's what we do know about people going up on stage, not literally, but they can be in front of the boardroom at a meeting and really sharing the direction of where everyone needs to go. I know there are some people who are nervous about the idea of public speaking. You don't have to necessarily like it. You don't have to Love Public Speaking. You can even despise it. But as a leader, it does get to a point where other people look up to you to display and promote the vision and direction of where the team is going, and that's where people will depend on you as a leader to really express that direction, and the next one is public listening, and that is where a leader has the courage to step aside and give other people the stage, and again, not the literal stage, but they could be At the office in front of everyone else or along the same table, but the idea behind public listening is to give your team members the opportunity to share their voice, share their perspectives, share their thoughts. Because when it comes to leadership, the leader does not. Really have to be the only one throwing all those ideas out there and perspectives demands. It's important to give other people that opportunity to really share what's on their mind. And then next is private speaking. And for that, I know, when people hear private speaking, does that mean a leader hides in the corner and start talking? Starts talking to themselves? No, not necessarily. What private speaking means to me is it's a phrase I use for coaching and mentoring, those one on one conversations with your employers, with your team members, with your staff. I call it private speaking because those conversations should be held in private. Whatever you and your team member shares with you, for example, it's it wouldn't be fair to say, oh, everyone did you? Did you know what Michael told me today? He said, this, this and this, again, when it comes to coaching and mentoring, you want to respect the privacy of those conversations, because your employees will share information that you would not get publicly. And lastly, it is private listening, and for this, a leader is really spending the time to discover their capabilities from within. So for some people, that comes in the form of meditation, where they're really being in the moment, present and just listening to the voice within themselves, also an effective way for private listening to occur and learn more about yourself is to take leadership development assistance, where you are seeing firsthand the strengths and the areas that you can work on, giving you the opportunity to really reflect and see how you can be a more effective leader. So the four Super skills of an effective leader is public speaking, public listening, private speaking and private listening.   Michael Hingson ** 16:56 I like the way you put all of that, and I like especially when you're talking about private listening, meditating, and really stepping back and becoming more self, analytical and introspective. That's something that we talk about a lot in live like a guide dog, because you will develop your mind. I guess the best way to put is heal developing your mind if you use it, and one of the best ways to use it is to look at what you do. Look at yourself. I encourage people at the end of the day to take a step back and look at what happened today, and look at what worked what didn't work. Don't ever regard something as a failure. It's a learning experience. But I think we gotta get away from negativity. For years, I used to use the term, I'm my own worst critic, and I realized literally, just over the last year, wrong thing to say, I'm my own best teacher, because I'm the only one who can really teach me. Other people can give me information, but I'm the one that has to internalize it. And so the fact is that I would rather look at it from a positive standpoint. That is, I'm my own best teacher than anything else, and I should look at everything that happens during the day to see what I can learn from and even the things that went well, could I have done it even better? And look at how all of that comes together? And I think that it's it's so important that we deal with ourselves in that way, because that helps us develop a much better mindset of how to move forward in the future, and it also helps cut back on fears, because invariably, you're going to think about things like, Why was I afraid of that today? Oh, maybe I really shouldn't have been because I didn't really have any influence over that. It's just something that occurred, and people can start to learn that they don't need to fear everything that they fear.   Jessper Maquindang ** 19:06 That's right. When it comes to private listening, it's all about that self awareness and overall, over all awareness and turning problems into opportunities. So you did bring up a excellent perspective. Michael, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 19:22 we should. We should really always look at what goes on and again. We should always look for ways to hone our skills and improve ourselves, because we're the best ones at making that happen, if we're open to really listening to our inner voice that is ready to guide us anytime that we will allow it to do. So it's not a noisy voice, it's a quiet voice, but it's there if we would learn to listen to it   Jessper Maquindang ** 19:53 absolutely and when it comes to taking that moment to really reflect, you can come up with. So many ideas that you would not have discovered if you were in a rush and just moving in a fast paced world and getting lost in into it. But when you take a moment to step back, take a deep breath and really slow down, it gives you an opportunity to come up with new insights that you wouldn't have discovered otherwise,   Michael Hingson ** 20:24 yeah, and it's so important to do that, and the insights were always there, but you weren't paying attention to them. You were just running around crazy. So you do need to take the time to stop and listen and learn. And it's amazing what will happen. One of the things that that I've always felt as as a leader, my job was, and I would always tell people I hired about this, my job is to not boss you around. I hired you because I assumed that you could do the job. You can miss me, that you could do the job that I want you to do. My job is to add value to you, to help you. And what that really means is that you and I need to work to see how we blend our skills so that I can better enhance what you do, because I want you to be successful.   Jessper Maquindang ** 21:17 That's right, that reminds me of a quote that I was as I was scrolling through LinkedIn, there was a quote that I saw that you hired smart people, let them do their job, trust them to do their job. And it was something along those lines, but Right, yes,   Michael Hingson ** 21:31 but even so, you do trust them to do their job. But the other part about it is, can you help them do their job better, and that's a that's a skill that I think a lot of people still really need to learn. On both sides, I have had people who I've said that to who never really figured it out, and they weren't really great listeners at sales, and they didn't do some of the things that they needed to do to be more successful at selling, but they also weren't willing to explore how to to better themselves and send and hence, they didn't necessarily stay at the company as long as they might have. But the people who really got it and who discovered that I, for example, am very technical, I listen. I'm unique being blind in the kind of world where we were selling high tech products to Wall Street, I was was enough of a unique individual that it was worth taking me along and letting me do demonstrations and product discussions. Again, my master's degree is in physics, so I'm pretty technical anyway. But one of the fun things that happened after one of those presentations was my sales guy, who was my best sales guy, said, How come, you know, all this stuff, and I don't, and I said, Did you read the product bulletin that came out last week? Well, no, I didn't have time. I said, there you go. If you had, you might have known more than what you would have known more than you do, which doesn't necessarily, in of itself, mean that you're would be better at presenting it. I didn't say that part, but, but the reality is that it is what I knew how to do. And we fed off each other very well, and we were both able to make him more successful than he otherwise would have been, which is really what it's all about,   Jessper Maquindang ** 23:27 that's right. It reminds me of the writings from Brian Tracy, where he would remind us that the people who really take an effective approach in their learning and personal growth, those are the ones who are more likely to succeed in this world,   Michael Hingson ** 23:44 yeah, which is very true. You've got to take responsibility for and take charge of your own growth and recognize that there's always stuff to learn there. There's always stuff that somebody else knows that would be helpful for you to get to know as well. And you should never resent people just because they know something you didn't know. It's cool when you get to learn it, and then you get to use it, and probably will impress them, because then they see you using and they go, I you caught on that, huh? So it is what we have to do that we don't do nearly as much as we should.   Jessper Maquindang ** 24:26 That's right, that reminds me of the world of coaching and mentoring too. There are so many more experienced professionals in the world that when we learn from them, that gives us the opportunity to really take in their insights, and when we use their insights that'll accelerate our process in becoming more successful in our journey of Professor professional development.   Michael Hingson ** 24:49 Yeah, our leaders, or should leaders be pretty resilient people?   Jessper Maquindang ** 24:55 I believe so. Because when you think about it, in today's world of leadership, there's. Just so much going on, especially in our fast paced society. When you look at working with teams, people have different perspectives. When you look at projects, there are so many items that just go into a project, and so many moving parts. And when you look at change itself, it's disruption, interruption, you name it. It's moving in all directions. And as a leader, sometimes something somewhere can knock you off course or knock you down. But you have a choice. You can stay down and worry, but that's not very productive, or you can get back up again. And when you do get back up, you get another chance to really find ways to whatever you were working on. You can make that better. It's a much more productive process when you're when you continue to get back up and really challenge yourself to find new ways to move forward. So it is important to be resilient, because there's when you look, look at change itself and how it's just shifting so many things around. If you're not as resilient, you're not going to be able to adapt to that change. But if you continue to get back up, roll your sleeves up, you'll be in a much better position as you really find new ways to build on yourself and move forward.   Michael Hingson ** 26:26 But a resilient leader isn't someone who is so stubborn that they think that they've got the only solution. It's really getting back up and looking at what happened and then moving forward in whatever way is the most appropriate to really make progress for you as the leader and your team.   Jessper Maquindang ** 26:48 That's an excellent insight, especially when a leader is so stuck in one way, it's really going to present challenges. It reminds me of the quote we've always done it that way, if a leader sticks to that message, they're going to get lost in the past, and they're not really going to be able to adapt to the future, or at the same time, their team members might not really relate well to that leader who just sticks with one idea. Because in today's world, if you want to be more successful in the projects and the processes that you're trying to build. It really helps to get the perspectives and insights of everyone on your team, instead of that one person who's just promoting one idea. It's not going to get very far. I think   Michael Hingson ** 27:37 one of the characteristics of a good leader is also knowing when to relinquish leadership because someone else has a skill that maybe they are able to do something better than you, and you've got to allow them to help guide the team, because they've got the particular skill that's necessary to do That.   Jessper Maquindang ** 28:01 That reminds me of two things. The first thing is that leaders should not be intimidated by other people who have a skill that they're lacking. They should actually embrace that opportunity, because our skills are complimentary when we work with our teams, someone has a certain ability or skill set that when we're all working together, it's like a puzzle piece, and when all the puzzle all puzzle pieces fit together, you'll be able to solve whatever you were working on. And the second part that this reminds me of is the idea of servant leadership for a leader, gone are the days where a leader should be demanding and be the best in terms of thinking they know everything and have everything. In today's world, a leader should be in a more servant leadership role, where they're supporting the growth and development of their team members and accepting that other people have skills that they might not have, because, as I mentioned earlier, working in a team is like having different puzzle pieces, and when it all fits together, you're solving that puzzle piece faster.   Michael Hingson ** 29:17 And you know, we talked about introspection and looking at the end of the day and analyzing what goes on. The more of that that you do, and the more time, as every day as you can and should do, every time you do that, your mind muscle develops more. And the more of it you do, the faster you'll be able to do it, and the faster you'll be able to then analyze and make decisions. So that the whole idea, though, is that you've got to train yourself to do that, and that's not something that anyone can do for you, but you can certainly learn to recognize a lot of the different kinds of things that we're both talking about, and you. Can work faster and smarter if you take the time to teach yourself how to deal with all that. That's   Jessper Maquindang ** 30:07 right. And then I know one way for leaders who have implemented that idea is journaling, just that open flow of getting your thoughts on a page that really helps, because you're getting the opportunity to really look at the ideas that you're writing down, positive or negative, and once those ideas are on the page, you can reflect deeper on each item that you've written down, giving you a much better understanding of how you can really improve that process or project or task that you were working on. So journaling really does help in really building your perspective someone   Michael Hingson ** 30:50 who really does that well and who journals, or however you do it. I tend not to journal a lot, but I've got other ways of recording information. So, so I do that. But the point is, then five years later, you go back and look at some of those early journal things, and you go, Oh my gosh, look what I've learned. Or, oh my gosh, I forgot all about that. What a neat thing I got to pick that up and do that again, journaling and having a way to record and be able to look back at what your thoughts are is extremely important, and it again, adds another dimension and a lot of value to you as an effective leader,   Jessper Maquindang ** 31:36 absolutely, because when you're journaling, you're writing down a lot of the ideas that have been on your mind. And for me, I use a more free flowing type of journaling where I'm really just dumping whatever I have on my mind and just throwing it out there. Because although there are no connections at that moment over time, I realized that there are certain themes that I can connect, and start to really see where all the dots are connecting, and find certain ideas and similar similarities and maybe even contrast, but working with those ideas and seeing what I can do and how I can actually use those ideas in Some of the future projects that I'm working on. So it really helps to get your thoughts out there. When   Michael Hingson ** 32:25 I was at UC Irvine, I actually went and took a course in transcendental meditation, and one of the things that they said is, when you're meditating, you need to let your mind just flow. You don't want to write things down, because it might very well be nonsense and and so on. But at the end, you can learn and remember and then write down ideas that came to you during the time that you meditate. And the reality is that the free flowing kind of technique that you're talking about makes a lot of sense, because what you want to do is get the thoughts down. There's no such thing as a good idea or a bad idea, they're all ideas. You may find that it won't work or some idea won't work today, but that doesn't make it a bad idea, because in five years, it might just be the way to go. But if you don't write it down and you forget it, then you've lost it.   Jessper Maquindang ** 33:17 That's right, that also works with a team in the form of brainstorming, I've seen situations where someone leading the team, where another team member will share an idea, and that leader of that team will say, well, that's not really realistic. When it comes to brainstorming, it is important to let all ideas flow. You don't want to turn anyone down, because, as you said, maybe a unique idea today will be useful and valuable in the future.   Michael Hingson ** 33:45 My typical reaction when I even think that something might not be overly realistic, it means to me, somebody's thought about something and I don't really understand it. So my immediate response would be, tell me more about that. And a lot of times that request leads to insights that I never had that make for a better situation all the way around. And it turns out, the idea wasn't really such a horrible and unrealistic idea at all, but you're right being negative. That's not realistic. That's not a good way to support a team, and I think it's very important that we recognize that it's all about supporting the team. So tell me a little bit about your thoughts about unstoppable perseverance and why that helps to make a good leader. Oh, that's right, I guess that goes into a little bit resilience. But, yeah, go ahead. Similar   Jessper Maquindang ** 34:47 with resilience. It's the opportunity when you get knocked down. It's that opportunity to get back up. And for perseverance, very similar for unstoppable perseverance, for a leader to not give up in. Keep pushing through, because with the situations that I shared earlier, the teams that you work with, the projects even change itself. In today's fast paced world, it's going to push you aside and maybe push you down. But if you're going to be worried about all these changes, it's not productive. It's not going to get you anywhere. But if you continue to push through and really show your perseverance and take charge and just really push forward, you'll get much better results when you continue to have that energy to just never get knocked down.   Michael Hingson ** 35:41 Of course, taking charge also means taking charge in a in a positive way, and not in a bossy way. That's right, yeah, and that's that's really crucial,   Jessper Maquindang ** 35:51 yes. So when it comes to taking charge, it's really being proactive about growing and your well being, and really understanding what you can do better. And again, it's not about that manager having too much power when it comes to taking charge. It's about being proactive about your personal growth.   Michael Hingson ** 36:14 So kind of summing up some of this in a bit. What is the most effective style of leadership. You think the   Jessper Maquindang ** 36:21 effective style of leadership that I've learned based on my experience is servant leadership, and I've learned of two different major definitions. I like one better than the other, and I'll explain why, but the first definition that I've heard about servant leadership is putting the needs of others above yourself. And the second definition of servant leadership is serving in the sense of supporting the growth and well being of others. And what I like is that growth and well being, because when it comes to supporting other people, you don't necessarily have to lower your own priority of yourself. When it comes to servant leadership, you're part of a team. You're on the same level as everyone else. You want to share your voice, and at the same time, you don't want to be the one taking all the all the power you want to share it. And when it comes to servant leadership, you're really giving other people the opportunity to share what's on their mind and what they'd like to do to become more effective in themselves. So servant leadership is supporting that journey of helping other people succeed?   Michael Hingson ** 37:44 Yeah, well, when we talk about leadership, and we've talked about teamwork and so on, in a sense, they're, they're equate, they're not equivalent, but they're, they're related, but they're also different. So the whole issue of building an effective team is a real challenge, and I've been involved in a lot of team building exercises and so on over the years. But how do you go about really growing a good, effective human team? And I put it that way, because I can sit here and talk about what I do with with dogs and and how we develop a very close bonding relationship. And what is really scary is it is very easy to destroy that or, or at least injure the relationship with the dog. If you don't respect the dog, and you look down on the dog, and you don't really realize recognizing the dog is doing its job, and they sense that, and they won't always necessarily communicate it back to you directly. But you know, in the case of humans, how do we develop good human teams?   Jessper Maquindang ** 38:58 That's right, the first part, I would say, is really getting a pulse on the morale. You want to make sure everyone is being heard and not being ignored or shut out as a leader. You want to ensure that the team member is really part of the team. And the second part is active listening, where the leader needs to intentionally and deliberately provide that space for other people to share their voice. Because if a leader is just taking everything up and doing all the talking and just doing all of the things himself or herself. It's really going to cut off the opportunities where an employee could have shared a great idea, but then you're just leaving it to one person to implement their idea of what needs to happen. So for an effective team to develop, one is. All about that morale and giving other people the space to feel like they are part of a team. And the second part is listening to the other team members and giving them that space to share what's on their mind and maybe even provide great ideas.   Michael Hingson ** 40:17 And you know, the issue is that, once again, in developing the relationships, you're going to have some ideas that are stronger and more productive than others. I'm not going to use the word bad, but still, everyone does have to have the opportunity to say what they think and to contribute, and when they have the opportunity to do that, they're going to be much more productive, and they're going to be much more willing to be part of the team.   Jessper Maquindang ** 40:50 That's right when you're giving another person the floor, metaphorically, but when you're giving them that space to share what's on their mind, you're really giving them those opportunities to share what the team can do to really grow together again, when there's no such thing as a bad idea, you want to give that space for everyone to share, because, As we've learned earlier, maybe an idea that's unique today will be useful and valuable maybe a few months down the line, or maybe a year down the line. But when you dig deeper into an idea, again, no bad ideas. When you dig deeper, you'll get more insights into what that team member was sharing.   Michael Hingson ** 41:38 One of the best books. One of my favorite books that I've read through the years is a book called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. Have you read that I have? Yeah, I really like the ways that he discusses teams and teamwork and one of the most important things that he talks about in sometimes subtle but still very, very strong ways, is developing trust and allowing the team to be a group of people that learn to work together. But it is, it's about accountability, which really is all about developing trust. And I mentioned that earlier, that dogs are open to trust, we have learned so much about not trusting on how not to trust because we think everyone has a hidden agenda. And how can we trust this person? How do we break out of that pattern?   Jessper Maquindang ** 42:33 Yes, so especially when it comes to the Five Dysfunctions of a Team in that book, Patrick Lencioni does start with trust, and to really build in that trust, you want to have open conversations with your team to really express themselves and give them that voice, because if you're cutting other people off, they're not going to feel safe, they're not going to feel secure in their role. On the other hand, when you open up that space, you're giving other people to you're giving other people that opportunity to really understand each other. So that's where it really starts from, that sense of understanding and building that time for that understanding in there, because if you cut off that understanding again, you're going to make other people feel unsafe. And when people feel unsafe, that's where trust starts to break down. But on the other hand, when you're building a psychologically safe environment, people are more likely likely to speak up and really trust each other in how they want to work with each other.   Michael Hingson ** 43:40 So tell me, what do you do when you have a person who doesn't earn trust, because trust is something that has to be earned, or some person who just really, I don't want to use the term rubs people the wrong way, but maybe that's a good term to use in some senses. But what do you do when you have a person that doesn't seem to have any interest in really developing a two way trusting relationship? That's   Jessper Maquindang ** 44:11 right? In this case, maybe the leader or not, I wouldn't say the leader, but this member. Perhaps, maybe it's ego. Perhaps it's selfishness you want to really figure out what's going on. Perhaps there are maybe problems at home or just outside the workplace, or maybe inside the workplace, what I would do is take this member and have a one on one conversation to really discover, is there anything that's going on that's really hindering their ability to connect with others are they just disengaged in general? That's something you want to figure out, because when you really dig deep and discover what's really happening, you can start to find ways to alleviate that situation and. Help the member find ways to cope and really work better together. So if a team member is disengaged, why are they disengaged? Is it the work that they're doing? Are they not excited about it? Have that conversation. See, Employee Mr. Mrs. Employee, you're not really engaged by the work you do. Can you tell me more about what energizes you? And then, from those types of conversations, you can discover ways to really find tasks that have more meaning and significance for that person. And then another way, another reason that an employee might not be open is maybe there's some problems at home again to have those conversations say Mr. Mrs. Employee, just curious. You haven't been very open to other team members. Want to know what's going on is, is it something personal? Just want to make sure you're okay. And then when you open these conversations again, you can discover what this person is going through, and then over time, find ways to alleviate that search situation, and then you might have an opportunity to really get that team member back on track and have them interact better with other team members in a more healthier and productive way. So it's really about discovering what's going on so you can look into that and find ways to help that team member. You   Michael Hingson ** 46:27 ever find that there are people that just don't respond to any of that, though, and just won't work to develop trust? It's   Jessper Maquindang ** 46:33 possible, absolutely it's possible. There are team members who are just completely not open, and again, it's still very valuable to have a one on one conversation, sure, just to see what's going on, and then if the team member is just completely shut out, that might be an opportunity to have a conversation with that employee and say, Jasper, I know times have been Tough in working with this team. Is, it perhaps, maybe, is there another role you'd like to consider? You know, it's really about the giving the the member an opportunity to discover what's going to work well for them. Because if they're just not going to open up at all, it might be that. It might be a situation where that member wants to find something else, and again, have that conversation to see what's on that mind of that employee. But   Michael Hingson ** 47:27 I think that no matter what you do, it's important not to judge or be judgmental, because whatever is going on with that person is going on, and you as the leader, have to worry about the team, and if that person can't be part of it, then you help that person. Again, it goes back to you're adding value by helping that person find something else that makes sense to do, even if it's somewhere else. And I believe that that level of being supportive is extremely important.   Jessper Maquindang ** 47:58 That's right, it's very important to be supportive. If that team member is just not open again, you don't want to call out that team member for being unsupportive. You really want to be that open leader who really lends in a hand to see what you can do to help that team member move forward and find a productive way out, or maybe integrate, reintegrate back with that team. But again, it's all about giving that employee space to discover what's really going on, how they can move forward in a more productive and healthy way, right?   Michael Hingson ** 48:37 It's it, but you have to take ego out of it. That's right. So switching gears a little bit, you haven't talked about yet, the fact that you grew up having asthma and then you ended up starting to run marathons. Tell me more about that. That's   Jessper Maquindang ** 48:54 right. I believe it was at the age of eight. I was in second grade, and I was diagnosed with asthma, and I just remember that my parents, I know they were trying to be supportive, but they were really protective, and I just remember that for my safety, they would want me away from pets so I don't have a reaction to fur. They would keep me indoors just so I don't get a reaction to pollen or dust or any other pollutants outside, and I would just get stuck indoors for a while. And over time, I fell into that trap of placing those limits on myself as well. And I realized over time, I don't want my life to be defined by those limits, and I wanted to do something significant where I can overcome that type of obstacle. And the first thing that came up to my mind was something physical. And I just remember, for marathon runners having that big, major goal, I decided to add that to my bucket list. But I. Knew something like that would not be an overnight magic formula. I knew I had to take it one step at a time. So what I what I did is I started with a 5k of course, there were challenges along the way. Moved up to a 10k and then when I felt more comfortable a half marathon, and then when I finally reached the finish line of my first full marathon, that sense of joy and relief and really knowing that I could achieve something like that despite growing up with what I had as a young just throughout my life, it was a really meaningful goal that I had accomplished. So really, when it comes to having that marathon goal, for me, it was really a sense of not letting past limits define my life and really moving forward to accomplishing something more meaningful and significant for myself.   Michael Hingson ** 50:54 So clearly, there are symptoms that you experience that that indicated asthma. Did a lot of that dissipate or go away as you began to run more and more marathons and became more physical,   Jessper Maquindang ** 51:07 so as I became more physical, I learned to manage it, and when I came to training, I didn't want to overextend myself. And again, I knew I wasn't going to run 26.2 miles in one night. I worked my way up to make sure my body understood what I was doing again. No rushing, no intense, no over and, no over extending myself, not going too intense, but reaching a more comfortable space, comfortable space pace that I can take throughout my training. That way, I didn't put too much pressure on my body, but my body understood over time and managed itself to really reach that level once I got to that marathon and just completed it.   Michael Hingson ** 51:58 What's the fastest you've ever run a marathon.   Jessper Maquindang ** 52:01 So I believe it was either Las Vegas rock and roll or Santa Clarita, and it was about four hours and five minutes. Okay, so today not it's not the same. I was a lot younger and more speedy back then, but it's still a hobby I still enjoy well,   Michael Hingson ** 52:24 but still, that's still over six miles an hour. That's, it's not too bad, but it's, it's, it's fun to do, but you've done marathons in all states, I believe, have you not? Oh, no, uh, just 15. Oh, just 15. Okay, but I have traveled to all 50 states. You've traveled to all 50 states. So what caused you to do that just happened? Or what?   Jessper Maquindang ** 52:54 So for me, when I was younger, I had actually not imagined traveling to all 50 states, but when I landed my first job, it happened to be at a travel company, and the department I was working for, we created custom guidebooks for our clients who were traveling across the United States. And just throughout my time there, as I would flip through those guidebooks, I was just inspired by the landmarks and attractions that were featured on those pages, and I decided, one day, you know what, I will do some traveling and see where it goes. I had booked a trip with another company that provided bus tours, and I took one that took me through the southern states and the eastern states, and that was from Louisiana all the way to Florida, and from Florida all the way up to New York. And after that trip, well, actually, when I reached New York, the timing, unusually, I find my I found myself in the midst of Hurricane Sandy, so I did not get to do a lot of that full exploration and get that full New York experience. But when the storm was over, I still had the opportunity to walk around and take a look at what was available and what was safely opened. So again, I didn't get that full experience at the time because of the hurricane, but I would return a year later with my siblings to get the full tourist experience. So just after that group, after that bus tour, I was really inspired to finally put 50 states on my bucket list.   Michael Hingson ** 54:36 I have fond memories of living in New Jersey, and my wife and I going into New York and touring a lot of people around Midtown Manhattan. We'd walk over to Saint Patrick's Cathedral and walk up Fifth Avenue and just have a lot of fun touring around and and visiting some of the restaurants, which was was really enjoyable. What are some of the the. Memories and life lessons you think you've learned from traveling to all 50 states.   Jessper Maquindang ** 55:03 So the memories, I would say, starting with the memories is that first trip that I did with that bus tour, saw, well, I believe at least 12 states. So I really did get a great understanding of what's outside of my home state of California, because prior to 2012 I had only been to two states, which was my home state of California and Nevada. Because my family used to enjoy going to Las Vegas, but after that, I really got to see more of what our country had to offer. Another memory, I would say, is the state of Rhode Island. It's a small state, but I realized once I stepped foot there, there was a lot to explore. I remember seeing the Gilded Age mansions. Remember taking a walk on the Cliff Walk and just getting the view of the Atlantic Ocean from Eastern beach. So you can get a full day of Rhode Island when you plan accordingly. And then I would say another memory that I had with traveling was just really historic landmarks and attractions, the Alamo in Texas, freedom walk in Boston, well, the Freedom Trail in Boston, Freedom Trail, right? And the government buildings in Washington, DC. I'm not necessarily a history buff myself, but surrounding yourself with just artifacts that have been around for over 100 or 200 years. It's just a really neat feeling. So I would say it's just the history has been a great memory for me, and the lessons I've learned from traveling is, the first lesson is it's important to be adaptable. Plans change, especially when it comes to traveling. And for me, I've been in a handful of either delayed flights or canceled flights. In that situation, you want to really give yourself that space to discover what you can do with your time to be more productive. So if there's a delay, you have a choice. You can sit back and worry, or you can you can figure out ways to find another flight that works for your schedule, or you can find other productive ways to fill your schedule, maybe catch up on work. Maybe you can discover the airport, or if you have a lot of time, you can leave the airport and discover the city that you're in. So in any case, very important to be adaptable. The second part about the lessons I've learned is to be curious. There's a lot the world has to offer. If you're at a restaurant and you're ordering the same kinds of foods that you would normally eat at home, that's not really giving you the opportunity to explore what's out there. No, when you're in a new restaurant, maybe try ordering something that you've never tried before, and then that really gives you that opportunity to see what's out there. So be curious, and especially when you're going to new cities, instead of going to the typical tourist spots, maybe take some time to figure out, maybe in the moment, that there's an area that's less discovered, and you might want to see and check those out to see what's available there. So really be curious and explore the world out there. And then the last one, I would say, as a lesson that I've learned in traveling to all 50 states, is be present, be in the moment. I've seen many people where they're on vacation in a new city, and they're looking head down, staring at their phone, and they're really missing out in the opportunity of really being in another destination, because when you're in a different state and different city, you're not really going to get that opportunity as frequently as you would. So when you're at home, you know it's it's so easy to just stare at our phone and get distracted, but when you're in a different destination, you really want to take the opportunity to really understand that you're in a new situation. Be present. Be mindful. Be aware of the new things to discover around you, because when you are present, you're really giving yourself that space to enjoy where you are in the world,   Michael Hingson ** 59:36 right? Tell me about your company, yes.   Jessper Maquindang ** 59:40 So with the family management consulting, we help leaders and managers build stronger teams through team building activities, leadership development assessments and executive coaching. So for leadership development assessments, I find those really important, because it gives people that first. Experience of really understanding where they're coming from, what their strengths are, how they can improve. Because when you're getting that opportunity to learn more about yourself, you can find ways to be more effective. And when it comes to my approach, I believe in the power of teams, because when you're focused on your team, you're getting more work done than what an individual person can do by themselves. So I see value in promoting teamwork than having one person do all the work.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:36 It's interesting the so your company, the name of the company is family, F, A, M, I, L, E, A, D, interesting name.   Jessper Maquindang ** 1:00:44 Yes, absolutely. So it is a playoff of the word family, because when it comes to a team, not necessarily believing that a team is the family, but when it comes to building a team, it's about that sense of community, that sense of belonging, that sense of togetherness, which is the values of being part of a family. And then the lead part, it's emphasized because leadership is an important aspect of bringing that sense of belonging, bringing that sense of togetherness, bringing that sense of community,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:28 so people engage with you to come and help them develop better leadership styles or improve how they interact With the people in their own companies, or what correct   Jessper Maquindang ** 1:01:43 so it is having the leaders find more ways to be more effective, because when you have buy in from the leaders, and they're working on becoming more productive, again, when it when you look at Leadership, it all starts at the top, and when you're getting that productiveness from the leaders, that spills over to having a more effective team. And then once you have your team together, really finding ways to build them into just a stronger unit, and the ability to really open up that space to be more productive and working together and finding that strength as a team. Well, if people   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:24 want to reach out and and talk with you more, learn what you do, maybe engage you in your services. How do they do that? Absolutely.   Jessper Maquindang ** 1:02:32 So there are two ways. The first way is to visit my website, familead consulting.com, and if you'd like to contact me there. There is a contact form, F,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:42 F A, M, I, L, E, A, D, consulting,   Jessper Maquindang ** 1:02:45 correct.com. Okay. And then the other way to reach me is through LinkedIn, search for Jesper mukundang, I absolutely enjoy conversations about leadership, personal growth, professional development. If you just want to have a conversation about those topics, I'm absolutely happy to have them. So feel free to reach out search on LinkedIn for Jessper Maquindang. Spell that, if you would your first last name, please. First Name Jasper, J, E, S, S, P, E, R, last name mccunding, M, A, Q, U, I N, D, A N, G, Jassper Maquindang, dang well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:20 great. Well, Jessper, this has been fun. We need to do it again. I mean, it's kind of hard to really cover everything that we want to cover or can cover in an hour. So we should, we should have more discussions about this. I'd love to do that, but I really appreciate you taking the time to spend with us, and I hope all of you out there listening, enjoyed listening to Jessper and his many insights and his observations on leadership. I think there's a lot to be said for all the things that Jessper had to bring to us. I'd love to hear from you about your thoughts concerning our podcast. Please feel free to email me. Michael. H, i, m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, or go to our podcast page. There's a contact form there as well. It's w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, wherever you're listening, we sure would appreciate it if you'd give us a five star rating. We value very much your ratings and your thoughts. Love to really get any insights that you have, and Jessper for you and for all of you listening, if you know of anyone that you think ought to be a good guest on unstoppable mindset, please introduce us. We'd love to meet more people to bring on to the podcast, because we want to help everyone see we all can be and are more unstoppable than we think we are. So again, I hope that you'll do that. I really hope that you'll reach out to Jessper and that he can help you with any leadership. Training and challenges that you need. So once again. Jessper, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful. Michael   Jessper Maquindang ** 1:05:07 leadership, is just a beautiful topic. I enjoyed today's conversation. Thank you again for having me.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:17 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Most people would say that Rhonda Farrah has had a difficult and, at times, scary life. As you will hear, Rhonda had a pretty conservative upbringing. She will tell us that she was in fact surrounded by love from her family and even her extended family of aunts and uncles and grandparents who all lived under the same roof. Rhonda was the oldest of her siblings and many looked to her for strength and knowledge.   Rhonda went to college first majoring in Horticulture, but switched to Psychology. As she says, she likes to help things grow and while she loves gardening, she preferred to help people grow and development.   Rhonda, as part of her so-called difficult life spent six years in prison and while there discovered that she had a lump on her breast. She didn't address the lump until she was released from prison. She used a combination of Western and Eastern medicine to complete eliminate the tumor without surgery. Also, fairly soon after leaving prison the sentence and charges she faced were completely expunged. While many told her she should litigate she disagreed and turned to forgiveness instead.   Today Rhonda coaches and teaches women to grow and learn to look within themselves to better understand how to grow and move forward. Rhonda calls herself a lifestyle empowerment alchemist. As she explains, an alchemist changes materials. She helps women to change by learning to look within for answers. As she says, if we look for answers, the best place to find them is within ourselves.   Rhonda offers many wonderful and relevant pieces of knowledge we all can learn to use. I think you will enjoy her story, her progress and her inspirational and unstoppable attitude very much.       About the Guest:   Rhonda M. Farrah, MA, DRWA, a LIFEstyle Empowerment Alchemist, Coach and prominent figure in personal development, has dedicated her years of insights as a psychotherapist to be a guiding light for women facing unique challenges, helping them embark on a transformative journey of Selfdiscovery and Empowerment.   In a world where external issues often command our attention, Rhonda Farrah stands out as a catalyst for inner growth with her mantra, “Fix Your Reflection First.” A beacon of hope for women who find themselves trapped in the throes of personal turmoil, be it in relationships, careers, or daily life.   Through her extensive career and profound dedication, Rhonda Farrah has spearheaded the Fix Your Reflection First method of realizing that both the joys and the setbacks in your life can serve you IF you can look past your immediate emotional response and use your Self-awareness to grow instead of pushing yourself down. Farrah's holistic approach centers on Self-reflection and the restoration of Self-love as the cornerstone of personal growth and Change.   As a seasoned author, Empowerment Alchemist coach, speaker, entrepreneur, spiritual teacher, and educator, Rhonda has cultivated an extensive toolkit designed to assist individuals in addressing the challenges that hold them back and embracing the joys that propel them forward. Working with clients and companies from International Centers For Spiritual Living to the US Open Wellness Team, Rhonda's teachings emphasize harnessing Self-awareness and leveraging life's setbacks as opportunities for growth rather than obstacles.   Rhonda's mission is to Empower women to prioritize their Self-love and Self-awareness, nurturing a profound alignment that positively influences every facet of their lives. Her work fosters a renewed sense of confidence and a hunger for personal growth, igniting a powerful journey of Self-discovery. Having written several e-books, Rhonda has participated as a Contributing Author to America's Heroes, Leaders, Legends, The Power Of The Human Spirit, and America's Leading Ladies Who Positively Impact Our World, featuring Oprah Winfrey and Melinda Gates.   Ways to connect with Rhonda:   Website: https://helpmerhondanow.com Email: rhonda@helpmerhondanow.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rhonda-m-farrah-ma-drwa-81097b14 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rhonda.farrah Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/helpmerhondanow_   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Mike Hingson, our guest today is Rhonda. And Rhonda pronounce your last name Farrah, which is what I thought. But I always like to make sure I get it right. Well, Rhonda Farrah is our guest, and as you will learn from her, Rhonda is a lifestyle empowerment Alchemist, and I'm intrigued to learn more about that and all sorts of other things. She especially helps women and helps ground them, I think, to summarize a lot of what she does, and we're going to talk about that. I know she talks and and in her bio, I read a lot about encouraging people to really think and center themselves. And that's something that we talk a lot about on various episodes of this podcast, and it's something that I talk about in the new book that is published in August of 2024 called Live like a guide dog, where I talk about and encourage people to be much more self analytical and look at themselves and take the time to do it, because it will create a lot less fear in their lives if they discover that they don't need to be afraid of so many things, but that's not something we're going to worry about as much today, unless Rhonda wants to talk about it, but we'll get there anyway. Rhonda, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Rhonda Farrah ** 02:50 Thank you so much, Michael, thank you for inviting me to be your guest. I love the name of your podcast, unstoppable mindset, because that's, after all, where everything begins, it   Michael Hingson ** 03:02 does. Well, why don't you start, since we talk about starting at the beginning by telling us a little bit kind of about the early Rhonda growing up and all   Rhonda Farrah ** 03:10 that stuff. Okay, yes, the early Rhonda growing up. Early Rhonda. I am originally from the East Coast. I grew up in Connecticut in a largely traditional household and family. I had a stay at home mom. I had dad who preferred mom stay at home. And I am the oldest of three brothers and one sister, and during that period of time, largely through grade three. You want to talk about my early days through grade three, I lived in an extended family, and many people know what that is. It was my parents, myself, my siblings, grandparents, at least one set at a time, aunts, uncle, one, uncle and great aunts, and it was a all under one roof, so there was a lot of love and there was a lot of discipline all at the same time. And it was a household primarily women, and my sense of nurturing and nurturing nurturance began very early with that feminine influence there. It's not that men don't nurture but I had an entourage of all that feminine presence around me, and also being the oldest of my siblings, I took on that while everyone's looking to you, Rhonda, that you're the role model so early on growing up, it was, I would have to say, We were a very conservative family, and I had conservative influences around me, and it actually paved the way for me wanting to. Not only to be in service of to others, but to go ahead and do my studies in psychology, counseling and educational psychology, and to help others be their highest and their best self. And that, that unstoppable mind, as you put it, is when we go within and we understand, how are we attending to the agenda of our soul that going within? So that's that's a brief that's a capitalized version of how I grew up. I like to play girls CYO softball. I was raised Catholic, Roman Catholic, later on, rebaptized a Christian. I honor all paths to God. I consider myself spiritual. I've always been spiritual, whether I realized it or not, and that, you know, that helps with that going within once, one says, Once I said, Yeah, I want to, I want to experience what is going within little Rhonda. And as I grew into an adult, and I got better at it, let's, let's put it that way, I got better at going within.   Michael Hingson ** 06:16 Well, yeah, and I think that's, that's important, and I think that that development of the brain is something that more people ought to do and and don't do nearly as much as as they should live like a guide dog. Is all about learning to control fear, because when I was in the World Trade Center and we had the emergency that we did on September 11, although I had plenty of fear, fear did not overwhelm or, as I put it, blind me. I used it as a powerful tool to help me focus. And the reason all that happened as I really figured out many, many years later and then started to write about it in the era of the pandemic was that I developed a mindset. I knew what to do because I researched what to do. It wasn't a matter of reading signs. Oh, I can read these signs that'll tell me what to do. That works until it doesn't, and it's not nearly the same as knowledge. And so I learned what to do. I talked to the Port Authority, police, the fire department, emergency preparedness people, and learned everything that I could about what was, what was occurring, or what what could occur in an emergency, and what to do in an emergency. And did it enough that it became a mindset for me, so that when it actually happened, although we never thought that it would, when it did, I was able to function because I had conducted a lot of self analysis and thought about, what do I do in this kind of situation? Realized I know what to do. Yeah, it's always possible the building could have just come down around us, and then where would we be? Well, we wouldn't be here talking about it, probably anyway, but knowing what to do was the issue, and we we, selectively or collectively as a society, tend not to do that. We think we can just read signs or Well, if it happens, it happens. But we don't think about that. But we think about so many other things. My gosh, what? What if one politician gets elected? What if another politician gets elected? What if any number of things happen? What if I go to the store and I get robbed and all sorts of things that we don't have any real control over, and we create so much fear because we don't just focus on the things that we can control and leave the rest alone. And I think that that is probably something that leans right into a lot of the things that you talk about,   Rhonda Farrah ** 08:53 yes, and that's you make an excellent point, because there's a point where we need to depend on what's going on within us. We can't depend on the government. We can't depend on the economy. We can't depend on the health care system, the pharmaceutical system. We need to listen to our intuitive self, to our authentic self from within and sure, I've been scared, sure, but with with stuff that happened within my all my own life. However, I wasn't paralyzed by fear. I didn't react. I responded, and that's really important for people to consider. We have so many questions, and especially now in these times, we're in chaotic we're in uncertain times. We're in a mess, basically, but the mess is here for us to learn, to grow and to move forward with that power from within, as I call it, our authentic power from. Then, and we, we all have, it's the power to thrive and not merely survive.   Michael Hingson ** 10:06 Yeah, and we all have the power to work together and to create harmony, if we would, but do it right   Rhonda Farrah ** 10:15 if we choose to. Yeah, it is a choice.   Michael Hingson ** 10:18 But make no mistake, it is a choice, and we can do it if we if we wanted to, and it would be so much more amazing how well people would get along on how much more we would accomplish if we did that.   Rhonda Farrah ** 10:32 That's absolutely correct. Michael, we are oftentimes we get caught up in what is different within us. You know, what are our differences? How about, let's talk about, how are we so similar, right? And that's where the strength comes in. That's where the power of numbers come in with that strength, with that power.   Michael Hingson ** 10:56 Agreed. So you grew up? Did you go to college?   Rhonda Farrah ** 11:01 I did. I attended the University of Connecticut under graduate school. And ironically, I didn't start out in psychology. I started out in horticulture, and was two years it's an agricultural college, actually the University of Connecticut. It was at that time. Now it's in the top 25 in the United States. And I enjoyed school. I enjoyed college immensely, and I always I switched to psychology. And let me tell you why. When I was a kid, I used to watch this show. It was The Bob Newhart Show, and he was a psychologist in this particular part in   Michael Hingson ** 11:52 that show, right?   Rhonda Farrah ** 11:54 And and for you know, unfortunately, several days ago, he made his transition. But when I heard that, I said, wow, look at how long ago. I mean, I admired him. I admired what he did. And I said, No, that's that's what I want to do. So I started out in horticulture, growing, okay, so I just switched to help people grow within themselves, and I am an avid gardener, by the way, and I like all those things with respect to preparing the soil, with respect to pruning, with respect to weeding so that you can grow healthy plants. And I'm a big advocate in growing where we are planted. We always have something to learn, if it regardless of situation, circumstance or happenstance. There's always something to learn wherever we're being planted or plant. There are no accidents, in my opinion, no coincidence, no happenstance. And we call everything forward into our lives to do just that, to grow when we are we are planted to experience joy, to experience sorrow,   Michael Hingson ** 13:05 and a lot of times when we experience sorrow, if we would really stop and think about it, we might find it's not as bad as we think too, right? But that happens, and that's again, it's a growth era and a growth thing to deal with. Yes,   Rhonda Farrah ** 13:20 yeah, absolutely. And you know that paved the way in psychology for me to become what I call a lifestyle, empowerment Alchemist, a coach, author and a speaker and alchemy, believe me, I am no left brain person. I alchemy is the precursor to chemistry. I never took chemistry. I opted for, I think it was environmental science. I was safe when there was a science requirement. I was good with that. But alchemy is indeed the precursor to chemistry, and it's the transmutation of one substance into another. So I learned by my own situations and circumstances. I have plenty of credentials, but my biggest credentials are that I came out on the good side, I'll say, On the positive side, on the Empowered side of some not so good situations and circumstances in my life. So that's why I refer to myself as an alchemist, and I am dedicated to awakening those who choose to be awakened, to opening their hearts, their minds, and most especially, their spirit within them, so that they can live their best life ever.   Michael Hingson ** 14:36 So in in your case, you you you do change things, what? What were some of the the maybe negative things that you had to work through that caused you to decide that you were truly an empowerment Alchemist, a lifestyle empowerment Alchemist, nothing   Rhonda Farrah ** 14:53 is negative unless, unless you think,   Michael Hingson ** 14:57 what challenges? Yes, the challenge. Challenges,   Rhonda Farrah ** 15:00 the struggles, the the adversity. Okay, six years in a woman's federal prison camp, breast cancer, several divorces, financial ruin was thrown in there, and it was like, wow, this is the not so good stuff that's happening, and it took me a while to understand. I called all this forward. I called all this forward for all the reasons why, whether it was poor choices, especially in the case of prison camp, called it forward to learn lessons and to to actually be in a major time out, because it began there that I began to realize my biggest struggle and challenge was I didn't know myself. I'd lost my sense of self. It I was in there somewhere, but I had lost my sense of self, and I needed to be literally extricated, separated from all that was familiar to me, so I could do something about that.   Michael Hingson ** 16:08 Yeah, how long ago was that that you were in the prison camp? No,   Rhonda Farrah ** 16:12 would have been. Actually, I was there when 911 hit. Okay, oh yeah, it's been a while, and I began that prison term of being of service to others, as well as myself, service set loosely in 20 in 2002 1000 in 2000 in 2000 and when 911 hit, I wasn't in a place where it was, you know, bars and razor wire or any of that. But when 911 hit, most I know my family and other people that I knew were saying she's probably in the safest place she can be. Yeah. And I said, Wow, this is actually happening. And I remember that happening. I remember I was actually part of a work cadre. I was teaching wellness classes as well to my fellow inmates, 300 women, and that came a little later, but it was part of a work cadre that went to the Presidio five days a week, five of us, five women, and we did Gardening. We did organization within, let's say, the warden's house that was up there on the Presidio. So I was part of the those that were trusted enough to be out five days a week. I mean, we had to go back, but so I experienced a lot. That was a gift and that was a blessing, and that is what got me through that instance. Just as other instances, I found the gift, I found the blessing in particularly like where I was at all times. But I did find gifts and blessings. I'm an avid runner. I had a track to run on. I a strength trainer. I had what was called a weight pile up there with antiquated equipment and everything else. But yet it was, it was mine. It was available to me. And so the gifts and the blessings come in in sometimes unlikely places, if you are open and receptive to them. And it wasn't about until a year after being incarcerated that I stopped banging the phone against the wall saying, Get me out of here. I had an aha moment. It was that period where I surrendered that I really began to peel away the onion skin that was keeping my sense of self, my true sense of self, self with a capital S at bay.   Michael Hingson ** 19:13 So you, as you said, started peeling back the onion and went on clearly, what was a journey of self discovery, and you began to realize, and I put it in quotes, I made these choices, and I'm the one that can fix it in the long run, in   Rhonda Farrah ** 19:39 the long run, right? But in the short run, I was learning more about myself than I ever imagined. Yeah, because I was separated from all those things that were my comfort zone, I was definitely out of my comfort zone, which is where our life really begins. When you're out of your comfort zone.   Michael Hingson ** 20:02 Yeah, and in so many ways and and, of course, that's the whole point that we get so comfortable on our comfort zone that we never really do look beyond it. And that's a problem, because life is all about so many things that we choose not to explore that would be so beneficial if we did? Yes,   Rhonda Farrah ** 20:26 absolutely, and I was pivoted right back into being of service to others.   Michael Hingson ** 20:35 Okay, by   Rhonda Farrah ** 20:36 teaching wellness classes and by you know there was a camaraderie. It was like women would say, Well, what about what should I do in this situation? What I said, I think you should take this time, because you have this time, literally time to explore from within, you can a lot of women that want to lose weight, they want to have better body image and otherwise. And those wellness classes were not just physical wellness classes I was teaching. It was emotional well, because that's how you get to the physical if you're working from the inside out, going within, then you're gonna have better results well being, rather than Ill being. And I would often say, you know, well, they would say, Well, when I get home, I'll get on a program and   Michael Hingson ** 21:36 lose weight, and yeah, when I,   Rhonda Farrah ** 21:39 when I said, Well, let me tell you what, when you go home, you're going to have to pay your rent, take care of your kids, have a job, and do everything else that you do in the real world without being institutionalized. So I said, there is a gift for being here. It's sad a lot of the times, because we all missed our families, but there is a gift and a blessing if we choose to know that so many women took me up on that some did not, and that's was their right. It's not my right, nor obligation, to want for someone what they do not want for themselves, not at all.   Michael Hingson ** 22:25 We are our own best teachers, and no one else can can do that for us,   Rhonda Farrah ** 22:30 right? That's exactly right, Michael, and it's it was an interesting time in my life. I actually so I was in my very early 40s, and I just turned 66 last last month, and I I never imagined that my midlife crisis, that was act one of my midlife crisis to be incarcerated to be and actually incarcerated to be liberated. I had more freedom getting to know myself and my true sense of self than I ever had at that point again, it wasn't all roses, it was pain, sorrow, emotional, largely, but I went through it. I felt, you've heard the the phrase, um, feel the fear, feel the pain, and do it anyway. Yeah, because it's subside. It's actually empowering to know that we have that power to feel pain, to feel sorrow, yet it will move us forward, or propel us forward. So   Michael Hingson ** 23:49 was that time in prison for you? Kind of the the end of Act One, and then the transition to act two.   Speaker 1 ** 23:57 Well, that was act one of my midlife crisis. Oh, you're master of your midlife crisis. That's my midlife crisis.   Rhonda Farrah ** 24:03 That that was that. But it was so surreal to me. I've never had a parking ticket or speeding violation, and it was like, What is this? So? Hard lessons, hard lessons when you do not trust your intuition. When you make poor choices, when you try to please people, just remember you, you will not come out on the best side of things, but you must go where you need to go to learn what you need to learn. Yeah, kind of like a college. It's an extra. Was an extra grad school,   Michael Hingson ** 24:45 well, and you said something very interesting, because, in reality, if you trust your intuition and you really work and develop that it will help you avoid things that otherwise you might not be able to avoid. But we. Don't tend to do that. And my favorite example of that is the game Trivial Pursuit. How often do you play that game and someone asked the question, and you think, I know the answer, and then you go, No, that can't be the right answer. And it turns out it was the right answer, and you should have answered with it. But, you know, it happens so often in so many ways, with so many things, yes.   Rhonda Farrah ** 25:19 So I mean, I took the best of a not so good situation and it was all right. It served me. It served me to empower me so that I could have that like in my that was a notch in my belt, to let people understand, that I could understand what they're going through because I was there.   Michael Hingson ** 25:47 So what happened when that time was over?   Rhonda Farrah ** 25:51 So I was teaching wellness classes there, and I was supposed to be released in April of 2005 and it got delayed until, I believe it was July of that year. And for 11 months I knew I had a lump on my breast, and I did nothing about it, but go within, meditation, prayer. I was not going to subject myself to the Bureau of Prisons, medical, and I took a risk, sure, but I went within and the intuition said, Okay, you're going to be all right. I call it my godling self, not my mere, earthling self. I didn't run around in this chaotic, chaotic tone and in every area of my life and say, Oh, my God, I got I got to do something about this. And no, I knew, but I knew what I had to do. I had to go within and reinforce that my authentic power would help me get through this? So that act two of midlife crisis is now entering in and I came home. I was living on the Monterey Peninsula, and we had to go to a halfway house for a month or so when they understood I had a lump on my breast, because I told them they couldn't wait to get rid of me from the halfway house. So I went home and I went to my gynecologist. He ordered a biopsy immediately, and in none other than breast cancer awareness month, October, I was diagnosed with nearly stage three breast cancer. And I'm a believer that what happens to us really happens for us. And that's that period incarceration strengthened me to get through this. And I was scared, but I was not in fear mode. I was not immobilized. And of course, biopsy comes back, and everyone's saying, what happened? What was it? And I, my response has always been, well, it's not the best news, but it's not the worst news, right either. And from that point, I met with my friends, would say, we're going to get you another breast. And I go, No, I don't want another breast. I like this one, and I have a nice little war scar right here, and I'm good. I'm good with that. No one has ever complained. So I'm good with all of it, because I'm good with it myself. And I got this feeling that had the best breast dye they called him in the United States, Dr Jeffrey Hyde, and he I was scared because I told my god, I heard about chemotherapy, surgery, radiation. And he said something to me that surprised me from within the Rhonda inside. He said, this can be chemically treated. And I said, What? And I was happy that it could be chemically treated. Okay, so I mean that meant chemotherapy. I was happy, but I was like, How could this be? I'm an athlete. I take care of myself. I don't have any negative vices or anything. And now this is happening and the incidents, so here I am the nurturer. Okay? I nourish others now. I help them be their highest and best self by taking the. The adversity as well as the joys, and making it work for them, if they choose that finding the gift of the blessing. So here I am the nurturer now realizing that incidence of breast cancer in women is due to the fact that women do not nourish or nurture themselves. They're good with everyone else. Okay, they're good, but nourishing others. I wasn't nourishing myself. Couple that with and that had started well before prison. I was a people pleaser. I was a doormat at times, and I just went about my life. And that was that, until I got a major time out in prison camp, and then I got hit with the breast cancer thing, and I decided, well, oh, there's my aha breath. That's my god breath. I decided, well, I'm gonna, I'm going to do this with Eastern medicine. I began the practice of medical Qigong, and I put off going to chemotherapy, and my daughter looked at me as if I was nuts, and she says, I don't know when we're going to get a break. And I go, it's going to be okay. Everything's going to be great. Don't worry, I'm not going to die, because who will be here to run your life? Tell you to brush your teeth and all of that in between. And I mean, I was interjecting some of you into a very serious thing, and that day, I made a promise to myself and to my daughter, I am not only going to live, I'm going to dance at your wedding, and I'm going to see my grandchildren and all that happened. There you go. That happened. I've been cancer free for about 17 or 18 years now, but my point of telling you that is that the medical Qigong professional heat said, go back and get to your oncologist and get an ultrasound, because Western medicine has the best diagnostic tools. I went back to her, my daughter was with me, and she said to me, I don't know what you're doing, but you're shrinking your tumor. And I felt good about that. And then my daughter's head spun around on her neck, and she looked at the oncologist as well as me, and said, Are you buying this shit like that? And I knew then that was another fear of mine. There were enter that fear of surgery, chemotherapy and all of that in between. I knew then, no, you got to go through you go, you'll use Western and Eastern medicine. And I never looked back. I had chemo. They cleaned up the margins a little bit on one of my breasts, and I had 40 blasts of radiation. So I got over that fear. I mean, that's, I'm not a doctor person. I don't I don't like to go to doctors, so I needed to call that forward so that I could understand that I had that power from within me to face even that fear. But once again, I was pivoted right back into being of service to others and doing support groups with women with breast cancer. Cancer.   Michael Hingson ** 33:44 So when did you become cancer free?   Rhonda Farrah ** 33:49 It was the end of March, 2006 Okay, and so what claimed cancer free? What?   Michael Hingson ** 33:56 What did you do? How did Eastern medicine help with that. What? What was involved with the Eastern medicine aspect of it?   Rhonda Farrah ** 34:03 Well, even though I started the chemotherapy, I had very few side effects from chemotherapy, because I continued with the medical dig on. I continued with acupuncture and prayer chanting, so I had side effects. I'm a runner. I was, I wasn't running as quickly, but I was, I was moving along with my dog four days, sometimes five out of the week, and I went. I was very diligent on Thursdays at 11 o'clock. That was my chemotherapy. So I come I combined them, but I was glad I combined them, and I was glad I faced that fear of, Oh, my goodness,   Rhonda Farrah ** 34:52 I need to do this stuff that I don't like to do. Do. So I could have become a victim and said, Oh, poor me,   Rhonda Farrah ** 35:04 we would probably not be having this conversation right now, because it's a little over 35% of women with breast cancer. Yeah, never   Michael Hingson ** 35:12 fake it. Well, yeah, go ahead.   Rhonda Farrah ** 35:15 I didn't choose that. I chose. I chose my own healing once again, and whether I knew it or not, by helping others heal emotionally, most especially, I was healing, and I was becoming more empowered. And I just took this next scary piece of life, adventure of midlife crisis, and I made it work for me, rather than anything less.   Michael Hingson ** 35:46 But that's really the whole point of stepping back and doing introspection in your own life and thinking about it and listening to what you have to tell yourself, because that's where the real solutions come from in most anything that we do, if we but listen. And you know, we don't tend to listen to that inner voice nearly as much as we can or should, and we lead ourselves astray.   Rhonda Farrah ** 36:21 I so agree with that. Michael, you know, we, we have so many questions within understand that the answers are within us. Yeah, that's it, and it is an inside job to live the powered life, to live the life that you want to live. Perhaps the life that you dream about, it comes from here, that comes from the heart, space, the heart, the emotions. And I believe there's only two emotions, fear and love, right? Whatever emotion you're in creates your thoughts, and your thoughts create your external world,   Michael Hingson ** 36:59 and you have some control over how all that really shakes out in the end, we all   Rhonda Farrah ** 37:05 do. We're all our own Guru. That's it. If we only knew that we we all have a godly self, not merely an earthling self.   Michael Hingson ** 37:17 Well, I think, in reality, they're they're one in the same in various ways, but I hear what you're saying   Rhonda Farrah ** 37:23 the and whether you call it, I happen to call it God, because my upbringing it universe, source, spirit, the divine.   Michael Hingson ** 37:31 Well, God's a very powerful word. I have no problem using that. Yeah,   Rhonda Farrah ** 37:35 black people are afraid of the God word. I like the God word. Yeah, definitely. Every time, there it is again, the AHA breath, that's my god breath. It's a confirming breath. So we just confirmed that it's great to say the God word, and   Michael Hingson ** 37:51 it has nothing to do with any specific religion.   Rhonda Farrah ** 37:54 No, it does not.   Michael Hingson ** 37:58 So what happened after Act Two in your midlife crisis, world,   Rhonda Farrah ** 38:10 I was asked in an interview, and I'll get to act three. Adventure number three, I was once asked in an interview, what was the worst date you've been on? So I was videoed, and the long and short of it was, I said, Oh, I thinking about it. I don't date and meet somebody. We get to know one another. They asked me to marry them, and the rest is history. Enter two divorces. You know, pretty close together, five, six years apart, very short lived divorces. And I'll tell you what prison prepared me for, breast cancer, and prison and breast cancer together prepared me for a lot of people don't think prison or breast cancer would be worse than divorce. It wasn't the divorce, it was the betrayal. It was the trusting of someone and then, like being sideswiped, that was it. Sideswiped and lots of tears. I always say, wherever I was, tears and laughter are signs of growth. If one is not laughing or crying weeping, then you're not growing. And growth is essential if you're going to be your highest, best self, if you're going to be an empowered, your empowered self. So the first one was ugly, the second one was ugly, and but I, I, I know I have a formula for living in empower. Life, and boy, did I use it my formula, because, after all, I am an alchemist, is gratitude plus forgiveness equals living the life that you want to live. So I was, first of all, I was grateful for meeting these people, because they taught me again about myself. I was settling, no disrespect to whomever I was married to, but I was settling because, well, I don't want to be alone, and maybe no one will also come and blah, blah, blah. I mean, I went through these gyrations. I'm no stranger to feeling that way, and I'm very vulnerable. I think you know that by now, and I'm good, you can hold me up to the light, and I'm transparent because I'm okay, whereas I wasn't to begin with, and that's about two years ago. My brand changed to fix your reflection first and live your best life ever, because that's why we're not living our best life ever. It's not that everything must go right for us, it's that we can find the gift and the blessing when nothing is going right. My whole life fell apart only so it all together in better ways. So I went from that people pleaser door map to under to thanking those who I was pleasing and had used me as a doormat. Thank you. I got it now. Okay, I got it so when I look in the mirror now, I see the love of my life. Because unless we are able to understand who we are and our magnificence, we will attract much less. Again, no disrespect to any situation, circumstance or event, to any person that I have been with so and the other thing is, if you treat yourself like the love of your life,   42:11 you will attract the love of your life,   Rhonda Farrah ** 42:14 not only in a romantic situation, in every freaking area of your life, you will attract the best of the best,   Michael Hingson ** 42:24 and I gather you've done that.   Rhonda Farrah ** 42:26 Oh, I'm open to love, but I'm not, I'm not with any I'm single and but I'm not, like, not in any dating sites or anything like that, right? I'm I'm working with myself,   Michael Hingson ** 42:40 yeah, well, that's what I'm getting at and yeah, that's   Rhonda Farrah ** 42:44 who I'm with. I'm with myself. Because wherever we go, we take ourselves with us, and   Michael Hingson ** 42:48 somebody might come along at some point that you develop a relationship with, but you're going to look at it differently now than you have in the past. Absolutely, absolutely, which is so cool.   Rhonda Farrah ** 43:06 It's what needs to happen. If it happened to me, then I have the right to say, well, it could happen to you too,   Michael Hingson ** 43:15 and it's not an ego issue. To say you're the love of your life. That's That's not it at all, and and it's important, I think, that people understand that it is that you're you're happy with yourself, you respect yourself. Now, my life was different than yours. My wife and I got married in 1982 and she passed two years ago, almost two years ago. So we were married 40 years and lots of wonderful memories, and I don't know what will happen in the future, although I'm not looking for any anything like the romantic kind of thing to happen, although some people told me I'm crazy and I should, but my response is, you know, Karen is monitoring from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. So I got to be a good kid. That's   Rhonda Farrah ** 44:05 it. And it works. And it works because it works for you, and this works differently for everyone, exactly, right. It works differently for everyone, but, and I have to say, and sometimes an audience will go up one side of me and down the other when I say, you know, selfishness is the most selfless thing we can do, right? I think, especially as a woman.   Michael Hingson ** 44:33 Well, yeah, I would say everyone, but I hear what you're saying, but I hear what you're saying. Well, so what do you do today, what, what is your, your your job, or whatever, or what do you what do you do with your life today?   Rhonda Farrah ** 44:49 With my life today, I I have dual duties after divorces. I was heading back to Connecticut. I. All my family's in Connecticut, two grandchildren. And not that I don't love the rest of my family, but, you know, grandkids, yeah, okay, I could do this, and ages 10 and eight, and a friend of mine, that's why I'm in Colorado Springs. Asked me to I've known her for 12 years. I know her through someone else that no longer speaks to me, okay, but that's that's how it happens. That's how people come together to learn lessons and otherwise. And she said to me, I need you to make a pit stop. Here I go, Oh, I kind of knew what was going on. Her mother in law has dementia, and she's totally ambulatory, and she's we high functioning. But as I'm in there somewhere, wherever I was, she's in there somewhere. So I came, I met the woman, and my friend said, Can you give us a year? A year? You want me stay here for a year, grow where you're planted? This is my point of telling you this, and this is why I do what I do. I have another growing where I'm planted. So she said, Can you give us a year? I said, What? It'll be three years, the beginning of October. I'm feeling that this woman and I will make our exit together, because I'm feeling I'm supposed to be here on one direction or dimension. Now I I still do plenty of interviews. I have my own radio television show on transformation network, which I'm inviting you to be on, and you'll hear from me on that. Let me know. Oh, yeah, and I'm catering to several clients. You know, everything is zoom these days, which fine. That's fine with me. So that's what I do. I'm in the process of, right? I've written three ebooks, a contributing author to three books, and I'm writing a book from PTA to prison, my journey in transformation. Now that was just a part of it, but that was the beginning, right? My journey and transformation. We're never too old for transformation. No, I would often joke and say, you know, Moses, he was transformed. He didn't didn't think he could do anything major. That was his mistake. And he did the greatest thing in his late 70s, yeah, the greatest thing for him. And the interesting part is I do mirror work is nothing new. And I go to the mirror every morning and at night sometimes as well, and lots of things developed after I changed my brand to fix your reflection first and live your best life ever. I went, I call it. I came out of the closet with prison and other personal aspects of my life. It's the best thing I ever did, be vulnerable in front of audiences and show them that I'm not immune to anything either. Just because I live and breathe this, which I do and I like it, I'm not stuff still happens to me, happens for me that not so good stuff, but so what I'm doing now is I'm continuing to transmute myself so that I can be A better service to others. That's literally what I'm doing.   Michael Hingson ** 49:05 One of the things that I love to say, and it fits right in with what you're discussing, is when I have the honor of doing these podcast episodes, if I'm not learning as much as, or more than anyone listening or whoever to the podcast that I'm not doing my job. And I think that that's an absolute part of it. We we all need to learn and transform. And I look for the opportunities that come along where people may say something like you've said a number of things that make perfect sense. I'm not sure I've heard today too many brand new things, but the reality is, there aren't that many. There really aren't new things in the world. It's just that either we haven't heard them yet, but they're still there, or we. We've forgotten them, and we need to remember them, or we have heard them, and we do remember them, and it reinforces it. But the fact is, there really isn't anything new in the world. We just have to sometimes rediscover it for ourselves. Exactly   Rhonda Farrah ** 50:14 it's it's the amount of reading I did in prison camp, and if I make notes on the in the sidelines of the pages, and then I go back and I read the same passages and books and everything else, and I'd read what I've written, and I'd say that was a learning experience. And my measure look how far I've come. That that's when self help wasn't called self help. Yeah, now we have self help, you know, yeah, Bob bought the programs and everything, and then never opened them, because, again, it's an inside job. And I believe that with all my heart,   Michael Hingson ** 51:02 right? Yeah, and I think there's, there's merit to that. So you have clients in various places nowadays, yes,   Rhonda Farrah ** 51:12 Canada, Australia. I'm actually the final touches on a group coaching program. It is coaching program for women. I'll take 15 women for 12 weeks, 12 weeks, and if they choose to continue with another 12 weeks, at the end of 412 weeks, we've done a year, yeah, together, and we've accomplished what we want to accomplish, but in bite sized pieces, right? We're building on the first 12 weeks, so I'm very excited about that. And my clientele is, I say 45 and over, but like 5850 and over, because we all having those little crises for our benefit. What?   Michael Hingson ** 51:57 What made you decide, though, to work with people who are essentially 50 and older, as opposed to younger people, because   Rhonda Farrah ** 52:04 I kept getting older. You know, I kept getting older, and my experience has happened to me, and I call it the mid life, and there are so many people going through, maybe not exactly the same thing, but in some cases, yes, the same things. They're going through them, and I, I want to be the light at the end of whatever tunnel they are journeying through, and let them know this is not a train coming at you. Your light is exactly that. It's your light. It's your guidance to move forward, and nothing less.   Michael Hingson ** 52:49 Now you you teach women, and that's fair, but if I were to carry it forward, what about men? Not that you that you're doing that, but don't men also really deal with the same issues they do,   Rhonda Farrah ** 53:03 but they deal with them in different ways, and in many cases, men have it over women because of the way they're dealing with them. Society has ingrained in men. They're the strong, they're the powerful, they're the empowered. Of course, you look at the state of affairs in this world today and you find that, well, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 53:26 and that's, of course, that's the problem is that it's great to be the powerful and the empowered and so on. But if you will, you let it go to your head, and you're not listening anymore,   Rhonda Farrah ** 53:37 right? The what I believe is that that's That's exactly true. If you're not listening to your intuitive self from within, if you're not, you're doing a number on yourself with that whole mindset thing. Yeah, think you can, you're right. If you think you can't, you're right as well. You're right as well. So the I have just had more women approach I've had more women approach me. There's a the they kind of assimilate with me and who I am, you know, I'm Mom, I'm the grandmother, and I'm the sister, you know, the oldest, and I'm in this thing, this gig, called counseling. Now, when I was a psychotherapist, my I turned to right around in 2005 couple things happened. I was released from prison. By the way, my sentence was expunged shortly after that.   Michael Hingson ** 54:46 Oh,   Rhonda Farrah ** 54:48 and so, and many people will also say, Aren't you mad? Aren't you angry? I go for what? For   Michael Hingson ** 54:54 what? Yeah, what good is that gonna do? I forgave   Rhonda Farrah ** 54:58 everybody. And. I came that's was part of my program for being my best self ever.   Michael Hingson ** 55:04 What were you accused of doing? If I might ask the   Rhonda Farrah ** 55:07 money. Money, crime, non violent. Non violent. No drugs, yeah. Money, crime, okay, got it. I mean, I was no milking and all of that. But the interesting part about that is, I served my sentence in prison camp. It used to be a men's prison camp, and Milken was there, and that's where he contracted cancer, and he won his release in $5 million and built the Cancer Center in Los Angeles. So you see, and that's, you know, everyone had me convinced, well, you should sue the government. I go, No, I don't think so. It's like, I need to move on. You know, it's like I'm moving on, and I'm taking the best pieces of that part of my life and this part of my life and these parts of my life, we teach that they can do the same.   Michael Hingson ** 56:04 When I was in my mid 20s, something happened. I became blind because I was born two months premature and given a pure oxygen environment, and that caused the retinas not to develop properly, something known at the time as retro enteral fibroplasia. And if we really want to learn to spell it, go buy my book thunder dog. Um, now it's called retinopathy or prematurity, and you can learn that in Thunder dog too. But anyway, um, I think it was in the mid 20s somewhere I read an article about someone who was born around the same time that I was and blind for the same reason, and they sued their medical people, and just, had just won a major lawsuit and got money and all that. And I was talking to my father about it, and I said, What do you think about that? And he he said, probably something that you can really imagine, he said, and what good would suing really do at the time? They probably had just the information that they had, and medical science had started to hear that retro enter fibroplasia was a condition, but medical science hadn't really accepted it yet. But my father said, Sue isn't going to solve anything. And he was absolutely right. And I thought the same thing. And to this day, I think that's true. I think there are times when there is such a thing as doing litigation for some purpose, but, you know, don't do it for the wrong reason, and don't go off and try to mess up somebody else's life, because I'm sure that those same ophthalmologists and so on in the 70s and 80s would never take the same approach that they did when I was born, or if they had to, because it really meant the life of the child, the parents would get an appropriate warning saying this could happen, which is what does happen. But also, it's been proven that it doesn't take a pure oxygen environment, 24 hours a day, every day to keep a child alive, and even just a few minutes a day will prevent the whole issue of becoming blind. So there are a lot of aspects of it.   Rhonda Farrah ** 58:34 There sure are.   Michael Hingson ** 58:36 But you know, we all are. We're in this same world, and we do need to, you know, to move forward. So what do you think that people can learn from you? We've talked for almost an hour. Summarize some of that, if you would.   Rhonda Farrah ** 58:52 I think people can learn from me that, you know, we're all whole, perfect and complete, even in our imperfections, all of us and I am more like others, and others are more like me than we all realize, because we all have that wholeness, that perfection within each within us, and they can learn to get out of their comfort zone a little before they're taken out of their comfort zone, to live an empowered life, to live maybe a little bit of the life that they've been Thinking about, perhaps dreaming about, they can learn that you know, even with everything that happened to me, I mean, I am so blessed. It could have been a lot worse in every situation that we have just talked about again in the last hour. But there was something within me, and it's within everyone. We are not alone. Alone, no one is alone. To take the best to count the gifts and the blessings, to use that formula gratitude plus forgiveness, not a popular topic, forgiveness will empower us if we go within and say, Yeah, that's the that I think that's the biggest thing, and that they're to get passionate about something, whether whether it's garden or whether it's changing lives, helping people fix their reflection first and live their best life ever. That's what they can learn from me. Find something to be passionate about,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:50 yeah, the operative part about that is fix your reflection first, do something that you're passionate about. I would add to that, that doing something for negative reasons is only going to hurt you. It's not going to hurt anyone else exactly that's   Rhonda Farrah ** 1:01:06 taking the poison and expecting the other person to die. Yeah, it's not happening.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:12 It doesn't happen. Well, if you were to Well, go ahead.   Rhonda Farrah ** 1:01:17 No, that's ask me. I want you to ask me another question. Do   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:23 you have a particular one you want me to ask you? No, oh, just checking. Just checking. If you were to to summarize all of this and leave people with one thought that they should take away and remember what? What do you want them to learn from this. I know we've talked about it a lot, and I kind of suspect I know the answer. But if you were to summarize it very briefly, what would you what would you say very   Rhonda Farrah ** 1:01:49 briefly? I would say, once again, you're not alone if you are struggling with a challenge, with something that not so good stuff in your life, reach out, whether you reach out to me, whether you reach out to someone else, reach out and go within. If you don't know who to reach out, to go within and listen and listen, and you'll know who to reach out to. And I have to say that wherever we go, and I alluded to this during the interview, during our conversation, wherever we go, we take ourselves. So those of us who are trying to avoid in life, wherever you go to avoid, whatever it is you're trying to avoid, you're the common denominator. You have still taken yourself there   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:41 and avoiding doesn't help. Facing is a different story than avoiding. Facing   Rhonda Farrah ** 1:02:46 Yes and it's okay. We all have feelings, feels. You want to feel sad, you want to feel angry, feel whatever the hell you want to feel okay. Because if you keep shoving those feelings down, eventually they will erupt at the most inopportune time. And quite frankly, and quite bluntly, I liken it to a toilet overflowing when you have a house full of guests, not a good thing. And finally, I'm inviting our audience to treat life as if it were ice cream and enjoy it before it melts.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:28 I believe life is an adventure. We should all partake of it and not hide. We may not and shouldn't all do it exactly the same way. Everyone is has got their own way of doing it, but enjoy it, as you said, especially before it melts. Well, Rhonda, if people want to reach out to you, and I hope people will. And you know, you may get some, some guys who who email you, but how do people get hold of you?   Rhonda Farrah ** 1:03:58 I would welcome any questions. I love to hear what is on the heart and minds of others, and you can get a hold of me. At, Rhonda. R H, O, N, D, A at, help me, Rhonda now.com, Rhonda. At help me. Rhonda now.com,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:18 and as I said earlier, we know what musical groups you grew up with.   Rhonda Farrah ** 1:04:24 Yes, we do.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:27 But Rhonda at help me. Rhonda now.com and I hope people will reach out and seek the wisdom that you are providing and the knowledge that you have to offer, what a wonderful treasure trove of information and knowledge you are and you have, and I hope people will take advantage of that. Thank you. Thank you. Michael, well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching. Us today. We really value it. I would really like to hear from you. I want to hear what your thoughts are about today. Please email me, whoever you are, wherever you are. You can reach me at Michael H, i@accessibe.com that's m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, wherever you're listening, I hope you liked today and that you will rate us and give us a five star review. We value your reviews and your ratings. So very much. Really hope that you will provide us with a five star rating. We love it, but we really, most of all, value your thoughts and anything that you have to say about what you heard today, and I know Rhonda will appreciate that as well. So email Rhonda at helpmeda now.com and communicate with her as well. If you know of any guests Rhonda you as well who might be wonderful people that we ought to have on unstoppable mindset. Would love to hear from you. We're always looking for guests. I found Rhonda through a person who reached out to me and said, I know this great person who ought to be on the podcast. And he was right. So definitely, if you know of anyone, please let us know, but give us rankings, five star ratings, and communicate with us, because that's the only way we get a feel of what you like and what you're interested in and and what you're thinking. So please tell us. And with that, Rhonda, I want to thank you one more time for being here, and we appreciate all your time, and hopefully we'll do it again in the near future, and I'm certainly glad to come on the program that you were talking about earlier.   Rhonda Farrah ** 1:06:49 Yes, yes, thank you, Michael, it's been my pleasure to be here.   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:58 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

I met Daniel Andrews through someone who has been monitoring Unstoppable Mindset and who told me that Daniel would be an interesting guest. How true it was. Daniel is a South Carolina guy born and bred. He makes his home in Columbia South Carolina. While in college he took a summer job with Cutco Cutlery after his sophomore year. I guess he liked the position because he stayed with Cutco for 15 years in sales positions.   While at Cutco his mentors introduced him to the concept of personal development. As you will see, he is widely read on the subject and he also learned to put his book learning to good use.   In 2013 he made the move to becoming his own boss and developed a true entrepreneurial spirit that still drives him today. He helps clients grow their businesses by seeking real quality contacts. He tells us that his goal is to introduce clients to 72 or 120 clients per year. As Daniel points out, a network of thousands of people is not nearly as effective as a smaller network of persons with whom you develop real credible relationships.   Daniel offers many wonderful and relevant tips on relationship and network building that I believe you will find useful. And, if you want more, Daniel provides his phone number at the end of this episode so you can reach out to him.       About the Guest:   Daniel grew up in Columbia, South Carolina after his dad moved from active duty USAF to reservice duty, in 1976. He attended college in Atlanta Georgia, where he took a summer job with Cutco Cutlery after his sophomore year, in 1988. His mentors, Ray Arrona, Ken Schmidt (RIP), Earl Small, and Don Freda introduced him to the concept of personal development, and his early career (the “summer job” lasted 15 years) was influenced by the writings of Zig Ziglar, Og Mandino, and Dale Carnegie.   He moved to St. Louis, Missouri in 2003 with his first wife, and switched careers. In his second career, a mix of B2B and B2C, he was influenced by  the writings of John Addison, Harland Stonecipher, and Jeff Olsen, encouraged by his mentor Frank Aucoin.   After his move to Houston, Texas, in 2013, he decided to become a true entrepreneur, and not just an independent contractor. The E-Myth Revisited, by Michael Gerber, Quench Your Own Thirst, by Jim Koch, and Profit First by  Mike Michalowicz were instrumental in making this jump, and he's currently engrossed in Super Connector by Scott Gerber and Give & Take by Adam Grant, as he builds a business based around showing people how to identify, find, meet, and grow relationships with a handful of key referral partners, to make sure there is a steady pipeline of 72-120 warm introductions to ideal client prospects every year.   He's been married to Adina Maynard since July 5th, 2019, after he returned to his hometown in the fall of 2016.     Ways to connect with Daniel:   Other handles: DanielPAndrews@outlook.com Pinterest link: https://www.pinterest.com/danielpandrews/   Daniel Andrews' personal FB link: https://facebook.com/danthemanwiththeplan1967   Daniel Andrews LinkedIn URL: https://www.linkedin.com/in/niasoutheast/   FB link - business page https://facebook.com/danandrewsnia   My video platform https://events.revnt.io/cutting-edge-business-coaching-llc   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.     Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well and hello everyone. This is Michael Hingson, your host for unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're with us today, and really glad to have the opportunity once again to be with you and talk about all sorts of different sorts different kinds of things, as we do every week. That's why we call it an unstoppable mindset, where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, because unexpected is much more fun. Keeps us all on our toes. Our guest today is Daniel, and would like to welcome you to unstoppable mindset, and we really appreciate you being here. Yeah,   Daniel Andrews ** 01:58 it's good to be here. Happy to participate. And really, I'm honored by the fact that you invited me to be here. So thank you for that. Well, we   Michael Hingson ** 02:05 made it. It's It's been fun, and we, we got introduced through Noah, who, I guess, does publicity for you.   Daniel Andrews ** 02:19 He and I have talked about that at some point. I'm trying to remember the entire chain that got me to you. You know, the person introduced me to him, to her, to him, to her, to him, to her, to you, right? I need a family tree of an introductory tree on my wall over here. I just keep up with all the connections. Yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 02:38 Keeps you alert and keeps you alert, you know, yeah, for sure. Well, I really am glad that you're here. And Daniel has a, I think, a great story to tell. He lives in Columbia, South Carolina, which he's really mostly called home, although he was born elsewhere, but sort of since roughly a fair, well, a fairly short time, he moved to Columbia and has been there. So I won't go into all those details. We don't need to worry about him, unless he wants to tell them, but Columbia has been home most all of his life. He did live a little ways, a little while away from Columbia, and on that, I'm sure we're going to talk about, but nevertheless, Columbia is home. I've been to Columbia and enjoy it, and I miss South Carolina sausage biscuits. So I don't know what to say, but nevertheless, one of these days, I'm sure I'll get back down there, and the people I know will make some more. But meanwhile, meanwhile, here we are. So why don't you start by telling us a little bit about kind of the early Daniel, growing up and, you know, all that, just to give people little flavor for you, sure,   Daniel Andrews ** 03:46 older brother two years older than me, exactly. I mean, within a couple days of two years, we're the only two no other siblings. Dad was an Air Force fighter pilot, and people think that must be pretty cool, and at some level, it is. But to help frame it better and give you a better detail of the experience of being the son of a fighter pilot, I encourage people that I talk to to remember the movie Top Gun. Not the second one where everybody was a good guy, they were older and more mature and, you know, but in the first one where there was the good guy that was a jerk and the bad guy that was a jerk, but they were, they were both jerks. And you know, it's a weird environment to grow up in when the biggest compliment one man can pay another is you don't suck that bad, right? That's literally the biggest compliment they're allowed to pay each other. So I grew up always thinking like I was coming up short, which has got some positive and some negative attributes. My clients love it because I tend to over deliver for what I charge them, but it kills my coach because he thinks I'm not I'm not fairly pricing myself in the marketplace, but I it made me want to be an entrepreneur, because the benchmarks are clear, right? You? In a sales environment, you know whether you're ahead or behind. You know what you got to do to catch the number one guy or gal if you're trying to beat the competition, you know how big your paycheck is going to be if you're working on, you know, commission or base, plus commission and and I really enjoyed the environment of being, I don't want to say competitive, but knowing that, you know, I was competing with myself. So many of my friends are employed by academia or small companies or big corporations, and even when they benchmark really good results, the pay, the compensation, the time off, the rewards, the advancements aren't necessarily there. So I really like the idea of having a very specific set of objectives. If I do this, then that happens. If I work this hard, I get this much money. If I achieve these results, I get, you know, moved up into into more authority and more responsibility, and that really made a world of difference for me, so that that has a lot to do with it. And as a result of that, I've opted for the self employment   Michael Hingson ** 05:54 certainly gives you lots of life experiences, doesn't it?   Daniel Andrews ** 05:58 It does. And I think, I think that people that work for other people is certainly learn, learn a lot as well. Meaning, I've not had to have extended co worker relationships or manage those over time. My first wife was fond of saying that Daniel's good in small doses, right?   Michael Hingson ** 06:15 So here we are, Ayan, so you're, you're telling us a little bit about you and growing up,   Daniel Andrews ** 06:22 sure it just you know, father is fighter pilot, right? And always pushing me to do more, be more. And that led me to choose a route of self employment, usually as a in the early parts of my career, independent contractor for other people. So I still had a structure to work in, but I knew what my objectives were. I knew how much money I would earn if I produced X result. I knew what it meant to get more responsibility, and that worked well for me. And then about eight years ago now, I decided to become a full fledged entrepreneur and really do my own thing and create some fun stuff. And it's been a fun ride in that regard, but I do love the freedom that comes from setting my own objectives on a daily basis. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 07:07 there's a lot to be said for that, and then not everyone can do that, because it does take a lot of discipline to be an entrepreneur, to do the things that you need to do, and know that you need to be structured to do the things that that have to be done at the same time. You do need to be able to take time off when that becomes relevant. But still, it does take a lot of discipline to be an entrepreneur and make it work successfully,   Daniel Andrews ** 07:35 right? And I don't know that I've mastered the discipline for it, but at least I'm working on my objectives and not somebody else's. The only person I'm letting down is me. You know, when I, when I, when I miss a deadline or don't execute, so that feels better to me than having the weight of somebody else's expectations on me   Michael Hingson ** 07:52 counts for something, doesn't it? I think so well. So you, you grew up in Columbia, but then you went off to college. Where'd you go to college?   Daniel Andrews ** 08:02 Down in Atlanta, Georgia, small school there. But I had a choice of three places, and each of them had offered me scholarship funds that equaled the same cost to me. IE, the packages were different, but the net cost to me in each case was going to be about the same. So rather than pick based on the financial aid or the scholarships are being offered, I picked on which city it was in. And I figured being a college kid in Atlanta, Georgia was a good move. And it turned out it was a good move. There was lots to see and do in Atlanta, Georgia, only about four hours from home. And it just it worked out to be pretty good that my other choices were Athens, Georgia, which is strictly a college town. And you know, when the summer rolls around, the place is empty. It goes down, and the other was a school and Farmville, Virginia, excuse me, the closest town is Farmville, Virginia, where the 711 closed at six. And I'm not exaggerating when I say that, yeah, not too sure. I want to be that far out in the sticks right as a 19 year old away from home for the first time, I wanted. I wanted. I wanted to have something to do with my freedom, meaning, if I was free to do what I wanted to do, I wanted to have something to do with that so and not not sit around Farmville, Virginia, wonder what was going to happen next. Yeah. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 09:19 so what did you major in in college?   Daniel Andrews ** 09:23 That question always comes up, and I'm always hesitant to answer that, because people think it has something to do with what I do today, and it does not in any way shape or stretch. I got a BS in psychology, which I tell people was heavy on the BS and light on the psychology, but at   Michael Hingson ** 09:38 the same time. And so my master's degree is in physics, although I ended up not going into physics, although I did a little bit of science work. But do you would you say, though, that even though you got a BS in psychology and you went off and you're clearly doing other things, did you learn stuff, or did that degree benefit you? And do you still. I have skills and things that you learned from that that you use today. I   Daniel Andrews ** 10:04 used to tell people that I had three facts that I used in college, that I learned in college, that I used on a daily basis, and for the longest time, I could recite all three. But nobody asked me what they were for the longest time, and I'm sure I still use all three of them, but I can only recall one, so the answer is, for the most part, no. But I think I went to college for a piece of paper. Someone else was paying for it. In this case, the school, not my parents. It was a scholarship, and I went to school not to learn anything. I went to school to get a piece of paper. I started off as a physics major, by the way, and when I got to the semester where they were trying to teach me that light is both a particle and a wave, I'm like, Yeah, we're going to need a different major, because I did not get my head around that at all. And and the degree that was had the least hurdles to get to switch majors and finish at that moment in time with psychology. So that's the route I took. I was just there for the piece of paper.   Michael Hingson ** 11:05 Physics wasn't what you wanted to do, huh?   Daniel Andrews ** 11:08 I did. But if the textbook had said light has attributes of both a particle and a wave, I might have been able to grasp it a little bit quicker. But it said light is both a particle and a wave, and it was the week of finals, and I was struggling with the intro in chapter one for the textbook, and I'm like, yep, might be time for different major at this point,   Michael Hingson ** 11:29 my master, my master's is in physics, and you mentioned and I enjoyed it, and I and I still have memories and concepts that I learned, that I use today, probably the biggest one is paying attention to detail and physics. It isn't enough to get the numeric right answer, you got to make the units work as well, which is more of a detail issue than just getting the numbers, because you can use a calculator and get numbers, but that doesn't get you the units. And so I found that skill to be extremely important and valuable as I worked through physics and went through and I actually got a master's and also a secondary teaching credential, and I thought I was going to teach, but life did take different directions, and so that's okay.   Daniel Andrews ** 12:18 Well, when you frame it that way, I will say that there is something that I learned that I that I use, maybe not in my work, but in my field of vision, and that's this, you know, lab and experimental methods taught me to ask the question, how did they ask the questions? Right? What was the structure of the test, the experiment, the the data collection right? Because you can do an awful lot of things. For example, they have found that if a doctor says to a patient, we have a chance to do surgery, there's a 10% chance of success, meaning that you'll live, they get a better up to uptake than if they say there's a 90% chance that you'll die. Yeah, it's the same information, but you always have to look at the way the questions are framed. Polls are notorious for this right data collection from my days in Cutco, I read a study and I put quotes around it right? A study that said that wooden cutting boards retain less bacteria than plastic cutting boards or polypropylene polyurethane, which is clearly blatantly wrong if you're treating your cutting boards correctly. And I looked into it, and they simply wiped the surface and then waited a day and measured bacteria count? Well, if you don't put it what you can dishwasher a plastic cutting board and sterilize it, right? Why would you simply wipe the surface? In the case of the wood, the bacteria was no longer at the surface. It had sunk into the woods. So there's not as much on the surface. I'm like, oh, but it's still there. It's just down in the wood. You have to literally look at the way these tests are done. And I guess the wooden cutting board industry paid for that study, because I can't imagine anybody else that would would a care and B make the argument that a wooden cutting board was better than a plastic one for sanitation reasons,   Michael Hingson ** 14:13 because it's clearly all it's all sales. And of course, that brings up the fact that you get that kind of knowledge honestly, because when you were a sophomore, you got a summer job with Cutco.   Daniel Andrews ** 14:24 I did, yeah, and I remember 3030, what is that? 36 years ago, now having to explain what Cutco was, but Cutco has been around for so long in America that most American households have at least some Cutco on them at this point. So I find most people already know and understand, but it was a direct sales job. It was not structured the way an MLM or a network marketing company has, but my job is to literally take, you know, a kit full of samples, right? Some some regular, normal, standard products that we would use and sell, and take them into people's homes and sit at the kitchen table and demonstrate. Right? The usefulness. Go over the guarantee, go over the pricing options, and you know what choices they could pick stuff out, and it turned out to be a lot of fun. Turned out to be more lucrative than most people imagine. I don't want to brag too much about how much reps make doing that, because then customers get upset we're being overpaid, but yeah, that's not true either. But it was a blast to to do that and the learning environment, right? What I learned about setting my own goals, discipline, awareness of the way communication landed on other people. I don't the psychology of communication, being around people, helping them understand what I knew to be true, finding ways to address concerns, issues, objections, without making them feel wrong or awkward. You know, it was a good environment, and that's why I stayed for 15 years. For   Michael Hingson ** 15:52 me, after college, I went to work with an organization that had developed a relationship with Dr Ray Kurzweil, the futurist and who now talks a lot about the singularity. And at that time, he had developed a machine that would read print out loud. Well, it would read print, and he chose, for the first application of that machine to be a machine that would read print out loud so that blind people could read print in books, because his technology didn't care about what type styles or print fonts were on the page anyway. After the job was over, I went to work for Ray, and after about eight or nine months, I was confronted with a situation where I was called into the office of the VP of Marketing, who said, your work is great. We love what you do, but you're not doing anything that produces revenue for us, because I was doing Human Factors work helping to enhance the machine, and so we're going to have to lay you off, he said. And I said, lay me off. And he said, again, your work is great, but we don't have enough revenue producers. We're, like a lot of startup engineering companies, we've hired way too many non revenue producers. So we got to let people go, and that includes you, unless you'll go into sales. And not only go into sales, but not selling the reading machine for the blind, but there's a commercial version that had just come out. So I ended up doing that, and took a Dale Carnegie sales course, a 10 week course, which I enjoyed very much. Learned a lot, and have been selling professionally ever since, of course, my story of being in the World Trade Center and escaping on September 11 after that, I still continue to sell. What I tell people is I love to view my life as now selling life and philosophy. Rather than selling computer hardware and managing a hardware team, it really is about selling life and philosophy and getting people to understand. You can learn to control fear. You can learn to function in environments that you don't expect, and you can go out of your comfort zone. And there's nothing wrong with that, you know. So that's it's been a lot of fun for the last 23 years to do that.   Daniel Andrews ** 18:00 Okay? Now you got me curious. What's the commercial application of a machine that will take a printed book and read it out loud? What I can clearly see why people with various and sundry?   Michael Hingson ** 18:12 Well, for people who are blind and low vision, well, so let's, let's deal with it. The commercial application for that particular machine is that people will buy it and use it. Of course, today it's an app on a smartphone, so it's a whole lot different than it was as a $50,000 machine back in 1978 1979 but the idea behind the machine was that libraries or agencies or organizations could purchase them, have them centrally located, so people who never could read print out loud before could actually go get a book, put it on the machine and read it.   Daniel Andrews ** 18:46 Okay? So this would make sense libraries and institutions of public knowledge, okay. But then, as I could see, where someone would want one in their home if they had need of it. But I was just curious about the commercial application well.   Michael Hingson ** 18:57 But then over time, as the technology advanced. As more were produced, the price went down. And it went from $50,000 down to $20,000 and you started to see some in people's homes. And then, of course, it got less and less and less and eventually, before it became almost a free app on a smartphone today, it used the Symbian operating system and Nokia phones, and the the technology, in total, was about $1,800 and then, of course, it became an app on a smartphone, and a lot of OCR today is free, but the other side of it was the machine I sold was a version that banks would use, lawyers would use, other people would use to be able to take printed documents and get them into computer readable form, because people saw pretty early on that was an important thing to be able to do so they could peruse databases and so on and so the bottom line is that it was very relevant to do. Yeah, and so there was commercial value, but now OCR has gotten to be such a regular mainstay of society. You know, we think of it differently than we did then, very   Daniel Andrews ** 20:10 much. But yeah, we still have one that can read my handwriting   Michael Hingson ** 20:15 that is coming. You know, they're my handwriting. I wanted to be a doctor, and I passed the handwriting course, but that's as far as I got. But, and as I love to tell people, the problem was I didn't have any patients, but, you know, oh boy. But the the bottom line is that there were applications for it, and and it worked, and it was great technology. So it taught me a lot to be able to be involved in taking the Dale Carnegie sales course, and I know he's one of the people that influenced you in various ways. Very much, very important to recognize for me that good sales people are really teachers and advisors and counselors. Absolutely you can. You can probably talk people into buying stuff, which may or may not be a good thing to do, but if we've really got something that they need, they'll figure it out and they'll want to buy   Daniel Andrews ** 21:11 it. Yeah, the way it was summarized to me, and this particularly relates around, you know, the Cutco product or another tangible you know, selling is just a transference of enthusiasm, meaning, if they knew and understood it the way I did, it would make perfect sense. So the question was, how do I find a way to convey my enthusiasm for what I knew about the product? And as simple, I don't wanna say simple, it sounds condescending in as few words as possible, in ways that made it easy for them to digest, right? Because some people are, are tactile, and they want to hold it, look at it. Others are, you know, knowledge oriented. They want to read the testimonials and a guarantee and, you know, things like that. So just, how do you, how do you kind of figure out who's looking for what? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 21:56 and the reality is, everybody is a little bit different in that arena. And as you said, conveying enthusiasm, you'll either be able to do it or you'll find that what you have isn't really what's going to make them enthusiastic, which can be okay too. Yep, the important thing is to know that and to use that information. And when necessary, you move on and you don't worry about it, correct? We have cut CO knives. We're we, we're happy. But anyway, I think the the issue is that we all have to grow, and we all have to learn to to do those things that we find are relevant. And if we we put our minds to it, we can be very productive people. And as you pointed out, it's all about transmitting enthusiasm, and that's the way it really ought to be.   22:54 Yeah, I think so.   Michael Hingson ** 22:55 So you talk about, well, so let's, let's go back. So you went to work for Cutco, and you did that for 15 years. What would you say the most important thing you learned as a as a salesperson, in working at Cutco really came down to,   Daniel Andrews ** 23:16 there's so many fundamental lessons in the direct sales industry, right? It's why, you know, so many people got their start with Encyclopedia Britannica or Southwestern books or Cutco knives, right? There's a, there's a, I mean, in the 90s, CentOS, the uniform people and sprint when cell phones were new and actually had to actively be sold because people had to be talked into it, yeah. You know, they ran whole recruiting ads that said, Did you used to sell knives, entry level work, starting at base, you know, salary plus commission, right? Because it was so foundational. So it's hard to say the most important thing, but I would say the ability to take control of my own schedule, and therefore my own actions, right, was a huge part of it. But then the ability to really know what, understand the people that I was working with as customers. As my time at ketco matured, and even after I left working with them full time, I still had a database of customers that wanted to deal strictly with me and the fact that they were happy to see me right? That when I was again, after I'd moved away, if I came back to town, that my customers would be like, Oh, I heard you're in town when you come to our house and have dinner, right? And just the way, I was able to move from business relationship into one where I really connected with them. And you know that many years, seeing that many customers give me some really cool stories too, which I'm not going to eat up most of this, but I've just got some fun stories of the way people responded to my pleasant persistence, follow through, follow up, knowing that I could run into any one of them anywhere at any moment in time. And not feel that I had oversold them, or I had been pushy, right, that they would be happy and what they bought. And as a matter of fact, I've only ever had one customer tell me that they bought too much Cutco. And she said that to me when I was there sharpening her Cutco and selling her more. And she said she had bought more than she needed for her kitchen. Initially, I'm selling her more for a gift, let me be clear. And I paused, and I said, Do you remember how the this is like five or six years later? I said, you remember how the conversation went? Because I use the story of that demo when I'm talking to other people and to other reps. She said, Oh yeah, no, no. She goes, I will 100% own that I chose to buy more than I needed. She goes, I was not trying to pin that on you. I was just trying to tell you that that's what I did. I said, Oh, okay, because I wanted to be clear, I remember very clearly that I offered you the small set, and you chose the big set. And she goes, that is exactly what happened. I made the choice to over buy, and that's on me, and that level of confidence of knowing I could go through time and space, that I could meet my customers here, you know, when I came back to town, or now that I moved back to town, and I don't have to flinch, right? But I'm not that I did it in a way that left them and me feeling good about the way I sold them. That's pretty it's pretty important,   Michael Hingson ** 26:15 and it is important, and it's, it's vital to do that. You know, a lot of people in sales talk all about networking and so on. You, don't you? You really do talk about what I believe is the most important part about sales, and that's relationship building, correct?   Daniel Andrews ** 26:34 I took, took my theme from The subtitle of a book called Super connector, and the subtitle is, stop networking and start building relationships that matter. And I'm, I'm comfortable using that, by the way, there's another book titled networking isn't working, and it's really hitting the same theme, which is, whatever people are calling networking is, is not really, truly building a network and relationships that make a difference. It's social selling. I call it sometimes. It's being practiced as speed prospecting, right? Or marketing by hand. There's, there's, there's a bunch of ways that I can articulate why it's not literally not networking. It's simply meeting people and treating them very one dimensionally. Will you buy my thing? Or do you know somebody That'll buy my thing right? And those are very short sighted questions that have limited value and keeps people on a treadmill of thinking they need to do more networking or meet the right people. I get this all the time, if I can just find the right people, or if I could just be in the right rooms, right at the right events, and I'm like, or you could just be the person that knows how to build the right relationships, no matter what room you're in. Now, having said that, are there some events, some rooms, some communities, that have a higher likelihood of high value? Sure, I don't want to discourage people from being intentional about where they go, but that's only probably 10 to 20% of the equation. 80 to 90% of the equation is, do you know what to do with the people that you meet when you meet them? Because anybody that's the wrong person, and I simply mean that in the context of they're not a prospect. Knows people that could be a prospect, but you can't just go, Oh, you're not going to buy my thing. Michael Hinkson, do you know, anybody that's going to buy my thing that's no good, because you're not going to put your reputation on the line and refer me somewhere, right until you have some trust in me, whatever that looks like.   Michael Hingson ** 28:30 And that's the real issue, right? It's all about trust right down the line. You know, network is meeting more people, meeting more people. That's great. I love to meet people, but I personally like to establish relationships. I like to get to know people, and have probably longer and more conversations than some of my bosses would have liked. But the result and the success of establishing the relationships can't be ignored   Daniel Andrews ** 29:05 correct. And I think that you kind of threw in a word there that I think some people will internalize, or it will reinforce some of their preconceptions. And I think it's worth addressing. And I'll just give you a quick example. Six, six weeks ago, four weeks ago, I had a conversation with somebody I was introduced to. His name happens to be Michael as well. Michael, Mike Whitmore. He was impressed with the quality of our first well, it went 45 it was scheduled for 25 and I went 45 because we really gelled. And he invited me to come to a cocktail party that was being hosted by a company he was affiliated with three hour event, and we spoke again later to make sure you know everything was in order, because it involved me flying to Salt Lake City for a cocktail party I did. He was there. We spoke briefly. We both mingled with other. People. I had breakfast with him the next day. This is yesterday that I had breakfast with him. And as we're talking, he's like, Okay, I have 80 people that need what you've got. He's, he's basically, after a few conversations, gonna refer about $400,000 for the business to me, right? And I'm like, Okay, and so what people miss is that you can build that relationship quickly if you're intentional about building the relationship. And where I see the mistake most people make. And God bless Dale Carnegie, and Dale's Carnegie sales training course, right? But that that the model, what I call the cocktail party model, or the How to Win Friends and Influence People, model of getting to know somebody you know. How about that ball team? You know? Did your sports club win? Right? How's the weather up there? Did you hear about the you know, how's your mom, right? When's the last time you were camping with the fam? All legitimate questions, but none of them moved the business conversation forward. And so the ability to build a productive business relationship faster by focusing on the mutual shared value that you have between each other and the business aspects, and including the personal as the icing on the cake is a much better way to do it, and that's why I was very particular about the fact that, you know, when I was talking about my experience with ketco, that it was over time that the personal aspects, that the friendship looking aspects, evolved On top of the business relationship, because it is way easier to mix the ingredients, to put the icing or friendship on the cake of business than it is to establish a friendship and then go, by the way, it's time for us to talk business, right? You need to our client, or you need to let me sell what I'm offering that can get become jarring to people, and it can call into question the whole reason you got to know them to start with, right? So I much prefer the other route. And just one other brief example, speaking with a woman in a in what I, you know, a first paired interview, Quick Connect, 25 minutes long, and she's like, understand, you know, relationships, it's the, you know, it's the way to do it, right? It's the long play, but it pays off over time. And you know, as long as you stay at it, and I'm like, Why do you keep saying it's the long play? Well, because relationships take time. And I'm like, You say so. And we started to run long and realized we had more value, so we booked it. Ended up being about four or five weeks later, because my calendar stays pretty full, and she's so we've been in 125 minute phone call. We start the second zoom with her, with Peggy asking me who's your target market again. And I gave her the description for a $25,000 client. And she said, I have three people that I can refer you to in that space that might might want to be clients. And then she started to try and tell me how relationships are the long play? Again, I'm like, thank you. Hold up. We spent 25 minutes together a month ago, and you started this conversation by referring $75,000 worth of revenue to me. What makes you think relationships are the long play? I think you can make them last if you want them to last, but it doesn't take a long time to build those I said I knew what I was doing with those first 25 minutes. That's why, at this stage of the game, you're looking to refer business to me. Yeah, right, yeah. And so I don't think it's a long you're not establishing a marriage relationship, right? You're not deciding who your new best friend is going to be, right? You're trying to establish a mutually beneficial business relationship and see what it takes you right with the right set of questions, it goes so much faster   Michael Hingson ** 33:49 and and that's really a key. And for me, one of the things that I learned in sales, that I really value a lot is never answer or ask close ended questions. I hate yes and no questions, because I learned a long time ago. I don't learn much if I just ask somebody. Oh, so you, you tell me you need a tape library, right? Yes, and you, you ask other questions, but you don't ask the questions like, What do you want to use it for? Why do you really need a tape library today? What? What is it that you you value or that you want to see increased in your world, or whatever the case happens to be, right? But I hate closed ended questions. I love to engage in conversations, and I have lots of stories where my sales teams. When I manage teams, at first, didn't understand that, and they asked the wrong questions. But when I would ask questions, I would get people talking. And I was I went into a room of Solomon brothers one day back in like, 2000 or so, or 2000 early 2001 and I was with. My best sales guy who understood a lot of this, but at the same time, he wanted me to come along, because they wanted to meet a sales manager, and he said, I didn't tell him you were blind, because we're going to really hit him with that. And that was fine. I understood what he what he meant, but also he knew that my style was different and that I liked to get more information. And so when we went in and I started trying to talk to the people, I turned to one guy and I said, tell me what's your name. And it took me three times to get him to say his name, and finally I had to say I heard you as I walked by. You know, I know you're there, what's your name? And then we started talking, and by the time all was said and done. I got everyone in that room talking, which is great, because they understood that I was really interested in knowing what they were all about, which is important,   Daniel Andrews ** 35:53 correct? And I mean part of it right, particularly if you're problem solving, right? If you're there with a solution, a sales environment, open ended questions, predominantly the way to go. There's always going to have to be some closed ended right? What's the budget for this? Who are the decision makers in the process? But, and I certainly think a lot of the same ones apply in decision making. Meaning, it's probably an 8020 split. 80% of the questions should be open ended. 20% you know, you know, you just need some data from the other person, right? Because, as I'm meeting people, I need to decide who to refer them to, right? I know I can think off the top of my head of three different resume coaches, right? People that help people get the resume, their cover letter and their interview skills together. And one charges, you know, four to 5000 for the effort, right, depending on the package, right? One charges between 2030 500 depending on one guy charges, you know, his Deluxe is 1200 bucks, right? And the deliverable is roughly the same. Meaning, I've never looked for a job using these people, because I've been self employed forever, but I would imagine the deliverable is probably not three times as or four times as good at 5k at 1200 Right, right? But I need to know the answer, what you charge, because the rooms I will put people in are going to differentiate, right? I actually said it to the guy that was charging 1200 I said, Where'd you get the number? And he told me. And I said, Do you realize that you're losing business because you're not charging enough, right? And he said, Yes, some prospects have told me that. And I said, I'm sorry. Plural. I said, How many? How many are going to tell you before I before you raise your rates? And I said, here's the thing, there's communities, networks that I can introduce you to at that price point, but the networks that I run in won't take you seriously if you're not quoting 5000 for the job. Yeah? And he just couldn't get his head around it. And I'm like, Okay, well, then you're stuck there until you figure out that you need to triple or quadruple your price to hang out in the rooms I hang out in to be taken seriously.   Michael Hingson ** 37:57 Yeah? And it is tough for a lot of people, by the way, with that Solomon story, by the time I was done, and we had planned on doing a PowerPoint show describing our products, which I did, but even before we did that, I knew our product wasn't going to do what they needed. But went through the presentation, and then I said, and as you can see, what we have won't work. Here's why, but here's what will work. And after it was all said and done, one of the people from near the back of the room came up and he said, we're mad at you. And I said, why? He said, Oh, your presentation was great. You You gave us an interesting presentation. We didn't get bored at all. The problem was, we forgot you were blind, and we didn't dare fall asleep, because you'd see us. And I said, well, well, the bottom line is, my dog was down here taking notes, and we would have got you anyway, but, but, you know, he was he we had a lot of fun with that. Two weeks later, we got a proposal request from them, and they said, just tell us what we're what we're going to have to pay. We got another project, and we're going to do it with you. And that was   Daniel Andrews ** 39:02 it, yeah, and because the credibility that you'd established credibility,   Michael Hingson ** 39:07 and that is a great thing,   Daniel Andrews ** 39:09 that was part of the discussion I have with some of my clients today when I hold a weekly office hours to see what comes up. And I said, it's just important to be able to refer people to resources or vendors, as it is to refer them to a prospect, right? If you don't have the solution, or if your solution isn't the best fit for them, the level of credibility you gain to go, you know what you need to do? You need to go hang out over there. Yeah, right. You need to talk to that guy or gal about what they have to offer. And the credibility goes through the roof. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 39:39 we've been talking about networking, and I think that's everything we've talked about. I think really makes a lot of sense, but at the same time, it doesn't mean that you don't build a network. It's just that networking and building a network are really two different sorts of things. What are some of the most important things that you've learned about building. That   Daniel Andrews ** 40:00 works. Sure, there's several, and some of them come as a bit of a shock to people. And I always say it's okay if it's a shock to you, because it was a shock to me. But I don't take I don't have opinions. I have positions based on data. Right? You know that from your from your days as a scientist, what you think ought to be true absolutely irrelevant in the face of what the data tells us is true. But I think one of the important things is that it's possible to give wrong. Adam Grant says in the first chapter of his book, give and take. That if you look at people's networking styles, and I'll use the common vernacular networking styles, you have givers, people that tend to give more than they, you know, receive takers, people whose objective is to always be on the plus side of the equation. And then matchers, people that practice the degree of reciprocity. And I would even argue that that reciprocity and matching is a bad mentality, just so you know. But if you look at the lifetime of success, a career is worth of success. In the top levels of success, you find more givers than takers and matchers, which makes a lot of sense. In the lowest levels of success, you find more givers than takers and matchers. They're giving wrong. They tend to polarize. They tend to either be high achieving or very low achieving, because they're giving wrong. And so I and Michael, let me use his name. We had breakfast yesterday morning after the happy hour, and I said, Mike, are you open for coaching? And he said, You know I am. He said, I didn't have you flat here in Salt Lake City, because I don't respect you. What do you got for me? I said, Josh kept thanking you yesterday for the things you've done for him in his world lately, you know, over the last several years. And he kept saying, What can I do for you? And you said, Oh, no, I just love giving. I love giving, right? You know, it's not a problem. You know, I'm in a great position. I don't need to have a lot of need of resources. And I said, and you're missing the fact that he was explicitly telling you this relationship feels uneven. I said it takes longer to kill it, but you will kill a relationship just as quickly by consistently over giving as you will by taking too much. And it's a little more subconscious, although in Josh's case, it was very conscious. He was actively trying to get Mike to tell him, what can I do for you so I don't feel like I'm powerless in this relationship. And Mike was like, Oh my gosh, I never thought of that. Said, Look, I said, I don't know how your kids are. He said, well, two of them are married. And I said, my grown daughter argues with me over who's going to buy dinner. But I get it because I used to argue with my dad, who was going to buy dinner. Yeah, dinner together, right? It feels weird for someone, even somebody, that loves you, right? And, of course, the only way I can do it with my daughter is to explain, it's her money anyway. I'm just spending her inheritance on her now, it's the only way she'll let me buy dinner every time we meet, and she still insists that she pays the debt, because over giving will get in the way of what we're trying to accomplish, right? That's fair, yeah. And so people miss that, right? I get this law of reciprocity. If I just give and give and give to the world, it'll all come back to me. No, ma'am. We have 6000 years of recorded history that says that's not   Michael Hingson ** 43:18 how it works. There's there's something to be said forgiving, but there's also receiving. And in a sense, receiving can be a gift too. So you're mentioning Michael and Josh. Josh would have loved, as you're pointing out, Michael to tell him some things that he could do for Michael, and that would have been a great gift. So the reality is, it's how people view giving, which is oftentimes such a problem. I know, for me as a public speaker, I love dealing with organizations that are willing to pay a decent wage to bring a speaker in, because they understand it, and they know they're going to get their money's worth out of it. And I've gone and spoken at some places where they say, well, we can't pay you a lot of money. We're going to have to pay just this little, tiny amount. And invariably, they're the organizations that take the most work, because they're the ones that are demanding the most, even though they're not giving nearly as much in return. And and for me, I will always tell anyone, especially when we're clearly establishing a good relationship, I'm here as your guest. I want to do whatever you need me to do, so please tell me how best I can help you, but I know I'm going to add value, and we explore that together, and it's all about communication.   Daniel Andrews ** 44:48 I think so well. And in the case, you know, just go back to the mike and Josh story real quick, right? There's, there's number one, there's a sense of fairness. And I don't like the word reciprocity or magic, right? I like the word. Mutuality, but there's a sense of fairness. Number one. Number two, it's a little bit belittling to Josh, for Mike to act like Josh doesn't have anything to offer him, right? It's a little bit condescending, or it could be, Mike doesn't mean it that way, right? No, what he means is my relationship with you, Josh is not predicated on us keeping a scoreboard on the wall and that we make sure we come out even at the end of every quarter, right? But, but. And then the third part is, you know, I said, Mike, think of how good you feel when you give. He says, I love it. It's great. That's why I said, so you're robbing Josh of the feeling of giving when you don't give him a chance to give. I said, you're telling him that your joy is more important than his joy, and he's like I never thought of over giving or not asking as robbing people of joy. I said, You need to give the gift to Josh and the people around you to feel the joy that comes from being of use, of being helpful, of having and I said, even if you have to make something up or overstate the value of a of a task that he could do for you, I said, if you literally don't need anything in your world, Mike, find some job Hunter that's looking for work. And say, Josh, as a courtesy to me, would you meet with Billy Bob and see if you can help him find work somehow give Josh the sense that he's contributing to the betterment of your world, even   Michael Hingson ** 46:26 if it may not work out that this person, Billy Bob would would get a job, but it's still you're you're helping to further the relationship between the two of you, correct, right? You're   Daniel Andrews ** 46:38 helping him feel like he's an equal in that relationship. And that's an important part of it. It really is. It's now I do an important part. I do believe we absolutely should tithe. We should give of our time. We should be at the homeless shelter on Thanksgiving. If that's what we're called to do, we should be, you know, you know, aid to the poor, you know, mentoring junior people who don't have a lot to offer us. I absolutely believe that's true. So when I say give strategically or given a sense of mutuality, but we need clear delineations on you know what we're doing, because if we give indiscriminately, then we find out that we're like the people in chapter one of Adam Grant's book that are in the lower quartile of success, even though we're quote, doing all the right things. And the best way to make you know, the example I give on that, and I'll articulate this little bit, I'm holding my hands apart and moving them closer together in stages, just because the visual will help you here too. But I tell people, right? I hold my hands apart and I say, you know, we're going to spend this much time on the planet alive, right? And this much time on the planet awake, right, and this much time on the planet at work. And then I'll pause and go, these are approximations right, because clearly they are right, and this much time on the planet dealing with other people. So if, if it's true that we only have a limited or finite resource of time to spend building a network with other people, then why wouldn't we choose people whose message is worth amplifying and who we're well positioned to amplify and vice versa? And to make that even more clear for people, if you're a real estate agent, you could find a lot of people that would refer business to you, but you could find a few people that would refer a lot   Michael Hingson ** 48:25 of business, a lot of business. Yeah,   Daniel Andrews ** 48:27 you could find a mortgage lender, a divorce attorney, a moving company, a funeral home director, a nursing home director, right? And and if you're going to spend time building relationships with people, why wouldn't you find the people who are positioned to touch more people that you need to touch, particularly if there is some mutuality, meaning, as a real estate agent, I would be just as likely to be able to help a mortgage lender, a moving company, a funeral loan director, etc, etc, etc, right? All those things can come into play. And you know, the John gates, the salary negotiation coach, right? And Amanda Val bear, the resume writing coach, anybody can refer business to Amanda, but John's going to refer a lot more business to Amanda. Anybody can refer business to John, but Amanda's going to refer a lot more business to John. And and, you know, given that we've only got a finite number of conversations we're able to hold in our lifetime, why wouldn't Amanda and John be spending time with each other rather than spending time with me, who might occasionally meet somebody who needs them, but not on a daily basis the way Amanda meets John's clients? John meets Amanda's potential clients.   Michael Hingson ** 49:32 So here's the other way to spin. May not be the right word, but I'll use it. Frame it. Frame it. So you've got somebody who you're not giving a lot of, let's say a real estate agent. You're not giving that person a lot, but you're giving Elmo Schwartz, the real estate agent down the street, a lot more referrals and so on. Then the real estate agent who you're not referring a lot of people to, comes along and says, You. You know, I know you're really working with this other guy, but you know you and I have have had some conversations, and so how come I can't take advantage of the many opportunities that you're that you're offering? And I, for me, I always rejoice when I hear somebody ask that question, because at least they're opening up and they're saying, What do I need to do? At least, that's what I assume they're asking,   Daniel Andrews ** 50:24 yes, yeah, and that's a question that I teach people to ask, under what conditions would you feel comfortable referring business to me, right? Right? And you know, they may go, well, we don't share the same last name, but all my referrals go to, you know, Billy Bob, because he's my brother in law, and Thanksgiving gets weird, right? If he realizes I've been given leads to you, right? You know, it may never happen. Now, in my case, I believe in having multiple referral partners in every industry, right? Yeah, I don't just pick one, because personality plays part of it, right? I mean, and we can go back to real estate just because you say you're a real estate agent, I'm a real estate agent. I mean, we're calling on the same market. Same market at all, right, right? You could be a buyer's agent. I could be a seller's agent. You could be calling on, you know, what's a probate and estate issues? I could be dealing with first time homebuyers and young people, right? And therefore, and a lot of times it's personality, meaning, I personally, is not even the right word approach to business, meaning, there's some people that I would send to Ann Thomason, and there's some people I would send to Kim Lawson, and there's some people I would send to Elaine Gillespie, and some people I'd send to Taco Beals, right? Because I know what each of their strengths are, and I also know what sort of person they want to work with, right? Right? That's 1/3 person would appreciate them.   Michael Hingson ** 51:42 And that's the important part that that when somebody comes along and says, How come such and such, you can answer that, and you can do it in a way that helps them understand where they can truly fit into what you're offering, and that you can find a way to make it work, and that's really important. I've always maintained the best salespeople or teachers, pure and simple, in almost everything, and preachers, but but listening preachers. So it is, it is important to, yeah, well,   Daniel Andrews ** 52:16 and I bring this up in the context because we have a Bible college here in our town. So when I was a manager for Cutco, right? We get the college kids, right? Some of these seminary students, you know, looking for summer work and right? And they're like, you know, how does sales relate to, you know, being in the ministry later, I said, man. I said, Are you kidding? You kidding? I said, it's the purest. I said, you've got the hardest sales down on the roll. You ask people to pay the price now, and the payoff is at the end of their life. That's not sales. I don't know what is. At least, when people give me money, I give them something for it within a couple of days, you know, I said, I said, You better be good at sales if you're going to be your preacher eventually. Because you the, you know, the payment, the cost comes now, and the payoff, the reward comes later. I said, Man, those are the same but teachers the same way, right? You've got to invest the kids, the kids or the student, no matter how you know and what they're learning and why it's going to be relevant down the   Michael Hingson ** 53:06 road, right? Yeah, well, you You clearly have, have accepted all of this. When did you realize that maybe you were doing it wrong and that you re evaluated what you do?   Daniel Andrews ** 53:17 That's a great story, and there was a light bulb moment for me, right? I think the kids these days call it the origin story, right? You know. And and to tell the story correctly, but I have to give labels to the other two people involved, because their names are so similar that when I tell the story, I managed to confuse myself who was who. So I was in St Louis, Missouri, which, for reasons I won't go into for this podcast, is a weird town to be involved in B to B business in. They literally would prefer to do business with somebody they went to high school with. It's just a It's strange, but true. And I can go into the background of why it's true. It just is. It's accepted by people that have sold in towns other than St Louis. It's they know that St Louis is weird. Okay, so I'm having trouble not getting the traction I want. Who's in my industry, he agrees that we're going to partner and we're going to have a revenue share. I don't believe in finder's fees, but if you're going to co create the value with me, that's a different thing altogether, right? Writing a name on a piece of paper, I'm not paying for that. But if you're going to go with me on the appointment and help me get the job done. Yeah. Okay, back to the point. So my wingman, right? My partner, I call him wingman for the version this story, local, been around forever, prospect, business owner, right? We've got a B to B offered that's going to be fairly lucrative, because he's part of a family that owns a family businesses quite, quite a large there in St Louis. And we had met with the CFO because that was the real touch point on the business. As far as the value proposition over lunch, the four of us have been there prospect wingman CFO, of the prospect of myself, and it went reasonably well. Out they wanted to follow up to make the decision, which is not, not atypical. So we're back there standing in the parking lot of the prospects business, and the prospect points at me and says, Who is this guy? And my partner says, he's my guy. And the prospect points at me and goes, but I don't know this guy, and my partner says, but I know this guy, and the prospect points me and says, Well, what happens if something happens to this guy? And my partner says, I'll find another guy. And that was the purest, simplest form of what's truly happening when you're building a network. See, my days at Cutco were predicated on some of the same things. I go to Michael's house. I asked the name of your neighbors, your best friends, your pastor, your doctor, whoever you think, and then I would call them Hey, your buddy Michael insen said you'd help me out. So I'm borrowing a little bit of credibility, but the sale was made in the product, right? I'm only asking for a moment of your time, but I expected to show up, meaning I was only borrowing someone else's credibility to get a moment of your time. But I expected to show up and let the product and my Sterling personalities, I like to think of it, shine through and make the sale. There you go. And I realized, because when the prospect pointed me and said, Who is this guy, I thought my partner would say, he's my guy. Daniel, here's your chance to rise and shine, bring it, do that song and dance that you do, right? And he didn't. He kept the focus on the real point, which was that the prospect had credibility with my partner, and my partner had credibility with me. Yeah, right. And, and, and in that moment where he refused to put the spotlight on me, my partner kept it on himself, and he said, Mr. Prospect, don't worry about him. I'm not asking you to trust him. I'm asking you to trust me. And that was the light bulb where I said, Oh, what we're building is not introductions. We're building endorsements. When I get to the prospects door. I have the all the credibility that came from Bert, who referred me right, whatever credibility my partner, Bert, had with the prospect Butch. I show up on Butch is doorstep with that credibility. And when Butch starts to question it, the prospect starts to question it, my partner goes, What do you question? You're going to question him. We're not talking about him. We're talking about you and me, and we've known each other 30 years. What are you doing here? And I'm like, oh, that's why we're doing this. That's the point. I'm not asking to borrow your Rolodex. I'm asking to borrow your credibility.   Michael Hingson ** 57:38 And the other part of that question that comes to mind is, did the credibility that Bert and Butch have with each other ever get to the point where it transferred to you, at least in part? Oh, yeah,   Daniel Andrews ** 57:55 yeah, we got the sale. Yeah. I mean, that was the conversation where he's like, All right, we're going to do this. I'm like, because it was a big deal. It was a very large deal. And, yeah, but in   Michael Hingson ** 58:04 general, you know, I hear what you're saying, and in general, somewhere along the line, the prospect has to say, has to hopefully recognize this other guy really is part of the process and has value, and so I'm going to like him too, correct,   Daniel Andrews ** 58:23 and you can drop the ball. It's possible to screw it up, but I'm starting at a level 10 in the case of this particular pair of people, and it's mine to lose, as opposed to starting from zero and trying to get up to five or six or eight or whatever it takes to make the sale, and that's the biggest difference, right? It will, it will transfer to me, but then it's up to me to drop the ball and lose it, meaning, if I don't do anything stupid, it's going to stay there. And you know what was great about my partner was he didn't even not that I would have but he didn't give me any room to say anything stupid. He's like, he's like, let's not even talk. Put the spotlight on Daniel. Let's keep the spotlight on the two of us, and the fact that I've never let you down in 30 years. Why would you think this is going to be a bad introduction   Michael Hingson ** 59:09

Thunder Dog: The True Story of a Blind Man, His Guide Dog, and the Triumph of Trust.An instant New York Times bestseller, Thunder Dog tells the true story of a blind man, his guide dog, and the life-changing power of faith and trust in the face of terror. When one of four hijacked planes flew into the World Trade Center's North Tower on September 11, 2001, Michael Hingson, a district sales manager for a data protection and network security systems company, was sitting down for a meeting. His guide dog, Roselle, was at his feet.Blind from birth, Michael could hear the sounds of shattering glass, falling debris, and terrified people flooding all around him. But Roselle sat calmly beside him. In that moment, Michael chose to trust Roselle's judgment and not to panic. They were a team.

Cris Edwards is a person who experiences a disability known as Misophonia. What is it? Cris is best at explaining. However, in part, this condition causes people who have it to react to sounds and other stimuli most of us take for granted and can ignore. As with many of our guests, I met Cris through our own Sheldon Lewis. By the way, because of Sheldon, Cris and his nonprofit use accessiBe. However, I get ahead of myself.   Cris went through school and, in fact life with manifestations of Misophonia. As he tells us, he also has ADHD. Many people with misophonia do exhibit other conditions as well. As Cris explains, until fairly recently this condition was not even recognized nor taken seriously. Cris tells us how he lived his life with this condition and how today he is dealing with it somewhat better than before.   In 2021 Cris founded soQuiet, a 501C3 corporation to help those with Misophonia. We will get to learn how even AI today is helping people deal with this issue.   Cris and I talk a lot about not only Misophonia, but how people can better exercise their minds to learn how better to conduct introspection and exercise their brains to better take care of their whole world. I hope you like what Cris has to say. Lots to think about here.       About the Guest:   Cris Edwards, MFA CPS, is the founder of soQuiet, a 501[c]3 tax-exempt nonprofit organization dedicated to providing free and accessible advocacy, resources, and support for all people whose lives are affected by misophonia, a multi-sensory sensitivity disorder.    Cris has struggled with what we now know as misophonia for over 40 years, since way back in the early 1980s, decades before there was any recognition, or even a name, for this condition. Years later, when connecting the dots in his life looking backwards, Cris can see just how much misophonia had an impact on his life, from affecting his schooling to causing barriers to employment and more.    Cris was able to complete college and grad school, earning a Master of Fine Arts in Directing. But, he always also wanted to help people to live better lives with a disorder like misophonia.   During the COVID pandemic, since there was no live theatre happening for an unknown amount of time, Cris decided to start a nonprofit which focused on misophonia and that worked to be accessible to all and to approach advocacy from the viewpoint of someone with lived experience of struggling with misophonia. soQuiet was born and has grown quickly in the four-ish years of its existence.   soQuiet has provided many "firsts" to the misophonia community, sometimes called the misosphere. Cris and the soQuiet team launched the first misophonia student research grant program, the first comprehensive peer support program for misophonia, and has mailed thousands of free misophonia information cards to six continents at no charge, among many other successes.   Cris is also active in the recovery community having gotten sober in 2017. He is a Certified Peer Specialist [CPS] as well as an occasional theatre director and designer. Cris lives with his wife, Michelle, and two cats in St. Louis, Missouri.     Ways to connect with Cris:   Website: soQuiet.org On all major social sites [Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, etc.] under the username: soquietorg   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:35 We appreciate it. Today we are going to have the opportunity to chat with Cris Edwards and Cris, among other things, has formed a nonprofit called so quiet. And I think there's a fascinating story behind that. And basically he deals with a lot of people who happen to have something called misophonia, which I'm not overly familiar with, and I'll bet most of you aren't, but Cris, clearly, because he found it so quiet, is an expert. And so there you are, Cris. Now you're stuck with it. Well, I want to know now. There you go, Cris. Cris is in St Louis, Missouri. We're out here in California, so we're little ways apart. But isn't science a wonderful thing? But Chris, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. I really appreciate you being here, and we're looking forward to having a great chat. Thank you so much, Michael, it's a pleasure to be here. I met Cris through Sheldon Lewis at accessibe. Now you all have heard of Sheldon before. He's nonprofit partner manager at accessibe, and worked with a lot of organizations like Cris' and he said, Cris, you ought to go on this here podcast. And Chris, I guess, decided that we were probably worth going on. So here we are. Well, why don't we start Chris, why don't you tell us a little bit about kind of the early Chris growing up and some of that stuff.   Cris Edwards ** 02:59 Absolutely. Thank you. Well, I just turned 50 last week, so I don't feel like I'm 50, but yeah, I was born in 1974 I grew up in San Antonio, Texas, and, you know, I A lot of times we can connect the dots looking backwards, but at the time, in the 70s and the 80s, there really wasn't as much awareness and cognizance and attention paid to things like neurodiversity and invisible disabilities and different disorders and things. There was a whole different social viewpoint to that. But yeah, growing up, I always had noticed a few things I felt a little different from other people, but I did well. As far as the classes, I was capable of doing everything quite well, but was always distracted, and oftentimes found myself responding to things in a way that was different than the way other people responded to the sensory input around them. So we'll get more into how I realized that that is a thing later, but managed to go through school.   Michael Hingson ** 04:10 What's that? Is that sort of like ADHD? Well, that's a good point.   Cris Edwards ** 04:14 I actually do have ADHD, but that is that is a separate disorder from misophonia. Yeah. What's interesting? Thank you for asking that misophonia often co occurs with other conditions like that, other mental health conditions like ADHD, OCD. There's not one of those that sticks out. Misophonia is considered a separate unique condition disorder. It can occur on its own, but we know through research that it's it commonly co occurs with other things. So as I got older,   Michael Hingson ** 04:43 what's that I say? Anyway, go ahead. Anyway. Yeah. So   Cris Edwards ** 04:48 I actually, you know, I got through school, actually ended up going to college and went to grad school. I studied theater and got a master's of fine arts and directing. But where'd you go? Well, for undergraduate school, I. Went to a little University called Tarleton State University. It's about an hour west of Fort Worth Texas. It's actually an agricultural college that happened to have a theater department that was pretty good. And then I went to Texas Tech out in the desert of Lubbock for grad school. But I had always, you know, early on, I can remember as far back as fourth grade, or maybe even earlier than that. Nobody has any record of this. We're just going off of my my flawed memory. I remember that the sensory input I got around me, I felt like I responded to differently than other people. For example, if I was in a class, I can remember trying to listen to a teacher teach, or trying to take a test, and if there were particular things going on in the classroom, I could not focus on the lesson, and I could not focus on the test or whatever, because I was so distracted, like by particular motions or particular sounds. And I learned later on, much later in my adult life that they had created a term for this. It wasn't just that I was particular about sounds, that it's an actual disorder called misophonia. And so when I found out the word probably around 2007 I found out that this particular term was created in 2001 so nobody had any concept of of this existence while I was in school. But in general, misophonia is a largely auditory but in fact, multi sensory aversion disorder. If you ever hear of somebody who says something like, I can't if you don't stop smacking your chewing gum, I'm gonna have to leave like it makes me anxious and frustrated more than is normal. Nobody likes the sound of smacking gum, but if it gets to a point where you literally cannot be around that sound, and it gives you this very accentuated irritation, frustration, like a need to just get away from that sound in a way that isn't normal. That's that's kind of a hallmark of misophonia. Misophonia can also have a visual element. So seeing somebody doing something, like, if I see somebody chewing gum, but I can't hear them, that actually brings about that same reaction. And it's not a volunteer, it's not a voluntary reaction. There's also a similar kind of sibling disorder called miso Kinesia, and it is when people have a similar response, again, an involuntary physiological response to visual motions. So if I was in class looking back and somebody was shaking their feet or twirling their hair, which are very normal things for people to do when they're anxious. Taking a test, I couldn't concentrate that motion, just my brain focuses on that motion immediately, and I can't, I literally cannot focus on anything else, and it makes me very upset. So that's that's kind of a misophonia in a nutshell. You know, I if I was in a class and somebody had a bag of chips, the crinkling plastic and the sound of somebody eating chips would would affect me in a way that is very abnormal. So that was misophonia. And when I found out that this word existed, it explained a lot of the issues that I had growing up. You know, I know that that those my inability to to participate fully in classes affected my grades and so forth, and so since then, kind of during the pandemic, when everything was shut down. I had been working in the theater industry here in St Louis, and there was no theater happening for a couple of years. We didn't know for how long, so I decided to do something that was different than I started this organization to help people understand this really difficult to understand, sensory disorder, and there's been a lot of research happening on it, we know that it's actually very prevalent in society. There's been a number of prevalent studies that show that misophonia is actually quite common. As many as one in five people have the symptoms, and roughly about 5% of the population has it to a degree to where it impacts their life, to it from a moderate to severe amount. And so it can be disabling. I've worked with people who isolate themselves. And, you know, there's sounds and and visual things in the world that they they try to avoid, and and we end up avoiding things as a way of coping becomes very isolating. So we've worked with people who, even though they live in the same house as a parent, that maybe is activates that for them, they don't talk to their to their family, because it's so uncomfortable the sound of a person's voice. Or the way that they move is so uncomfortable that they stay in their room and and just text their family that's in the same house, it can be very isolating and frustrating. So I kind of went on a bunch of different tangents there answering your question, but hopefully that makes some sense, and I'm happy to explain any of it more. So   Michael Hingson ** 10:17 what did you do as you were growing up and so on, to to deal with. I mean, you obviously did something that allowed you to be successful at going to school, whether your grades were affected or or not. You still did make it through and all that. What did you do to to deal with all of it? That's a great question of understanding yet, of what it really was to have misophonia. Fantastic   Cris Edwards ** 10:40 question. Yeah, looking back, there were things that I would try to do, but I didn't have the awareness and I didn't have the words to explain to other people what I was dealing with. Because if I just tell people, if they don't know what it is, I can't the sound of the crinkling chip bag is driving me so crazy, it sounds crazy before we knew what it was, but, you know, a lot of it was just suffering and silence. I know it affected my mental health. It's sort of like I could try to compare it to if you're having an anxiety attack or even a panic attack, but you try to hide it, and that, you know an anxiety attack or something is not something you can control. They just come on sometimes. And if you were to try to hide that and and quell it so that people don't notice what you're going through, that's a little like what it's like to sort of suffer in silence and act like everything is normal, when internally, I'm just like wanting to leave the situation, because it's such an uncomfortable feeling being around totally normal sounds that are not a threat in any way.   Michael Hingson ** 11:52 So you kind of just did suffer in silence. And yeah, I guess the best thing to say is coped, if you will, coped,   Cris Edwards ** 11:59 and I would do things improvisationally to try to help. Looking back, I probably could have, if I'd thought about it, carried foam earplugs with me, which I do now, and worn those in class to kind of filter out some sounds. But I was talking to some other people recently who have misophonia in one of our peer support groups. And I would do little things like I would try to if you could rest your elbows on on your school desk, and put your hand your put your chin in your the palm of your hands together, you can kind of secretly put your fingers in your ears in that pose, but look like you're still paying attention. Yeah. So I would do things like that to where it looks like I'm still participating, but I'm actually blocking out some of the sound by secretly putting my fingers in my ears to get to the class and just little things like that I would do to try to get by. But   Michael Hingson ** 12:53 as you matured and got older and so on, did any of the symptoms mitigate or go away, or is it still as prevalent for you as it ever was? That's   Cris Edwards ** 13:04 a great question. My own experience has been a little bit of both. We don't have any research. We just have anecdotal stories on whether misophonia gets better with age or gets worse with age or not any different and people tell you different things. I think mine's been a little bit of both, in that there were things that didn't that used to not activate that misophonic reaction, that that anxiety and frustration and and panic that it brings about that do now. So for one example, is not everybody. It has that misophonic reaction activated by Pet Sounds. And that was never a problem for me until maybe about 10 years ago, where some noises that animals make would bring about that reaction. For example, we were talking about our cats right at the before we started recording today, and one of my cats is what I call a loud bather. You know, when she's bathing herself, the that very accentuated licking sound causes that, that involuntary reaction. So I, I have to kind of put her in the other room and she doesn't understand it. But so that's something that I have acquired. I've, actually acquired new we call them triggers. I try to avoid calling them triggers, because I think that term is kind of overused, so it doesn't even have any meaning anymore, but, but at the same time, you know, with with age and with introspection, I've learned coping skills. I've learned to deal with this. It is a part of my life, just like anybody with any kind of disability does their best to to accept some of the things that are going to be more difficult or different for us, and work on coping with the things that we can and changing the things we can through advocacy or accommodations or whatever. And so in a way, I've gotten better at dealing with it. I. Communicate about it very much more effectively now that I know the term for this thing, and you can Google it, and there is a definition, and there is research on it which didn't exist at all when I was a child, so I've gotten better at coping with it, even though I think my actual experience of it maybe has gotten a little bit worse. So who knows.   Michael Hingson ** 15:21 Yeah, it's yeah, it's something that only time is going to really give you the opportunity to do exactly how it goes and so on. But what did you do after college? So what did college lead you to?   Cris Edwards ** 15:34 Well, that's a great question. I was always active in the theater, but the theater industry is kind of difficult. It's a lot of with a normal job, typically you have some job security, so maybe you work there and you know that next month you'll still have your job unless things go wrong in theater. A lot of times you're hired on by production. So you might work for a month or two on a particular production of a particular play, and then when that's done, you're back to looking for work again. And so for for job security, I sort of went, after grad school, into the tech industry, and so I worked for a number of small tech startups in the early 2000s I worked at Apple for a while and did kind of a mishmash of things that had some benefits and some job security that the theater world didn't have, and and I worked in the theater more as kind of a after school extracurricular kind of capacity. So, yeah, it looking back, I did that, but it was still a struggle. I didn't know the word for this thing, and I knew that either other people were much better at dealing with being bothered by these sounds, or other people were not as bothered by sounds and and visual stimuli as I was. And so the 20 years ago, the idea of an open office. Was a big thing in startups, you know, you have just a big open office where everybody works, and that is a nightmare for people with misophonia and miso keynesia. And so I just struggled. It was just suffering in silence, like I said, doing my best to block out sounds when I needed or put up Visual barriers in the offices I worked in to to block out visual movements that might be very distracting and and uncomfortable, but I probably around 2007 I found out that there's a word for this thing and and slowly, over the years, I realized that it's a it's not just a made up term that somebody on the internet came up with. It's an actual medical term that was invented by audiologists and and there was a research beginning on it roughly 10 years ago. So yeah, when I look back, I just kind of had a mishmash of things that I have done professionally since then. And I started this organization because I I wanted people to know that they can ask for accommodations, that they can talk about this with the confidence that it is a real thing, but it is supported by science, and there are ways of getting through life with it. There's actually an entire department at Duke University dedicated to studying misophonia as the Duke center for misophonia and emotion regulation. So all those kind of things help validate that this is a just a strange, sensory based disorder. Not to get too long winded about it, at the beginning, I had mentioned that we could oftentimes connect the dots looking backwards. And, you know, I'm pretty open about sort of my experiences with things, just because I want other people to realize that they're not alone and that there are certain pitfalls that can happen and and it's not unusual. So when I look back, you know, in in my college years, I found that, as a lot of college students do, alcohol was something that helped me be more social with misophonia and my ADD and I'm kind of an introvert anyway, even though I can play an extrovert on TV, I was, I was, I was kind of a hermit in college and and theater is a very social right industry, and so people bugged me a lot about it, and I found that alcohol helped calm my senses, that I could be around other people and be in misophonically triggering situations, which I didn't know about at the time, and be more social. And so over the years, the alcohol became a crutch, and it became a much bigger problem than than my misophonia was, and I didn't realize it at the time, so that sort of took over my life, and I got sober about seven years ago, and really had to assess how I can get by in life with my sensory issues and needs without numbing my senses and causing a lot of problems in my life. If that that caused so I say that just so people know, because I hear other people who sort of self medicate, it's a understandable thing to do, but it really had a huge impact on my life. And I think there are better ways of dealing with invisible conditions than self medicating. So I just want people to know that that is also a part of my story that happened over the years, and I don't think it's unusual.   Michael Hingson ** 20:28 Well, tell me a little bit more about, well, about all of that, in terms of dealing with it and so on, and what, what you've evolved into doing.   Cris Edwards ** 20:37 It's a great question. So I, I guess since getting sober is a lot of things have happened. The pandemic happened, and, you know, I think I've, I've thrived. A lot of people find it interesting to know that, for example, I got married, and I know that's not really a big deal. That's a very common thing that a lot of people do, but it's important for a big deal for you. Well, it's a big deal for me, sure, but when we work with parents who have children with misophonia and other conditions, they really worry about their children, like, what kind of future will they have? You know, are they going to struggle with finding employment and finding friends and being in relationships and and doing typical things? And so when I they find out not that I was trying to be encouraging everything, but when they find out that I actually did get through grad school and got a master's degree, and I have gotten married with this misophonia, they're relieved to hear that it's possible to do fairly typical things. It may not be as easy. So yeah, that's that's kind of what I've done since getting so bright. I finally got married at the age of 45 we moved to St Louis, where my wife has a very good job in the library system, and started a very successful nonprofit, and have remained very active in the recovery community. All of these things are things that I've worked hard to do and and I wouldn't have been able to do if I was still sort of stuck in my self pity, self misery, self medicating phase of my life. I'm glad that's over with, but yeah, I feel like I'm playing catch up on life the last few years. But   Michael Hingson ** 22:23 on the other hand, you're doing that, and part of it is, and is that you're, you've, you've discovered a lot about you, and yeah, you you had alcohol and so on, but you've gotten over that, and you've made some mental commitments that certainly have to be helping with you being able to address the issue of misophonia?   Cris Edwards ** 22:42 Yeah, that's true. I would, I would think that pretty much anybody who has any kind of disorder or condition or disease that impacts your life, especially if it's disabling in any way you know, or affects your ability to do typical things in a typical way that that your average person would. You know, you have to do a lot of introspection. You have to be really creative with coping in life and coming up with unique solutions to get by. And that requires a certain amount of resourcefulness and and introspection and and intelligence. And so, you know, I I've been very fortunate to meet some wonderful people with misophonia. Through the misophonia community that is actually huge. People are finding out that they are a part of it, and they didn't even know it every day, and they're contacting us. And just wonderful people who are bright and talented, and I'm glad to be a part of this unique community that we find ourselves in. I think it's a big part of it too, just the validation that we get and the ability to share our experiences and our frustrations and successes and stuff. Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 23:56 Well, introspection is very important. Not nearly enough. Do we use it? And do we teach children in each other to use the whole concept of introspection to deal with things I wrote a book was published in August of 2024 called Live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and walking in faith, and one of the main things that we talked about right from the beginning of the book, it's the book is all about helping people learn to control fear, rather than letting fear blind you or overwhelm you when something unexpected happens. And as you may know about, my story, having been in the World Trade Center and confronted by the horrific things that happened on September 11, I didn't negatively react, because I knew what to do. I had developed, although I didn't realize it at the time, a mindset, because I had focused on learning what to do in the case of an emergency. I knew what the evacuation procedures were. I knew why they were, what they were, and where to go, and the various options and so on. So I was. Prepared, although never expected to have to use it, but a lot of that also came from thinking about myself and how I would react in different situations, and not becoming paranoid over but rather really stopping and thinking at night when I had time, well, how would you react if this happened in this way? Or how would you react? Or what will you do with all the knowledge that you've gained? And I developed a mindset that said, You know what to do in the case of an emergency, and when the emergency occurred, the mindset kicked in. And again, a lot of that has to do with introspection. I think we don't spend nearly enough time in our own minds, thinking about ourselves and dealing with the things that that we face. One of the lessons that I've been teaching people for a while, and that comes out of the World Trade Center, is, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on what you can and the rest will take care of itself. And there's so much that we worry about we don't have any control over, but we still worry about it, and all that does is engender more fear in our lives and makes us more uncomfortable, whereas if we would just worry about the things that we truly can worry about and not worry about the rest of it, which we can learn to do, we're much better for it. And in your case, it's the same sort of thing. You've got misophonia, okay? But at the same time, look at what you've done and how far you've come in terms of just mentally developing and preparing yourself because of the whole issue with alcohol and everything else, yeah, and you have grown, and that has to help in how you deal with misophonia.   Cris Edwards ** 26:47 Absolutely you said it exceptionally well. And you know, anecdotally, sometimes people say that when you develop, you know, substance use problem of any kind, you kind of stop growing spiritually and growing emotionally, and I think that was true for me. So when I got sober around the age of 42 I had to catch up with being an adult. And one of those was introspection, like you said, it's, it's a lifelong thing. And I think Aristotle, or one of those, said that the, you know, the self examines life is its own reward. And through recovery programs, I'm very active in AA and and they focus on why, why you do the things you do. What is your what is your thinking problem that turned into a drinking problem? And that's just pure introspection, like you said. And I'm grateful to to have learned those skills of picking apart, why I do things, and how can I get through life better in a in a more earnest and and kind and forgiving way than I had been. And, yeah, I interestingly, I mean, you talked about faith and that sort of thing. I don't come from a particularly religious background. My family was fairly non religious, which was unusual back in the 70s in the south in Texas. So I didn't really have that background. But, you know, I even today, I consider myself fairly agnostic, but there's not a day that goes by that I don't fall back on the advice of the Serenity Prayer, which I didn't learn until I got into AA. What wonderful advice. I sort of came to that same conclusion through the Stoic philosophers, but they're teaching the same universal truth, which is exactly what you said. If there's something that I'm really stressed about and having a problem with, if I can ask myself, Do I have any control over the outcome of this, and if the answer is no, I need to work on forgetting it. I'm just my worrying isn't solving any problems. It's just making me suffer, but I can't do anything about it, and that's a hard thing to do, and it takes daily vigilance, but you're absolutely correct. And   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 the other part of it is, even if the answer is no, introspection helps you. Then think about, well, why have I been worrying about it? Then, I mean, maybe something else that's pertinent that made you start to worry about it 100% and it might very well be that there you'll discover there is something about which you you do have some control regarding whatever it is, but if you don't take the time and well, it's not just taking the time to be introspective, it's also making the life choice to say, I'm going to think about this and I'm going to find the solution that works for me, and make that commitment. And that's got to be part of what you do, because it isn't just, oh, I'm going to think about this. Well, that's not enough. You also do have to decide, I'm going to deal with it. I'm going to find out what is going on, and then I can move forward. And I will move forward   Cris Edwards ** 29:56 Absolutely, yeah. How you deal. If that powerlessness or inability to have any control is is you're right, the next step, and it's difficult. There's, there's so many things I I have no control over. Actually, most things in the universe I am powerless to influence. I can't change the weather. I can't move the planets any differently, you know, and so, not yet. Anyway, not yet, no. But same with situations. I mean, there's just some things that I that affect me that I don't really have the power to influence in any way. And so yeah, how you deal with that and not let let that fear, that worry, that angst, control your life, which it has done before for I think a lot of us, is a challenge.   Michael Hingson ** 30:37 Well, what made you finally decide to start so quiet and form an organization to deal with misophonia. I know you mentioned the pandemic, but started, What? What? What happened?   Cris Edwards ** 30:47 That's a great question. At the time, I could sort of see that there, I just had a hunch that misophonia was probably not the rare condition that it was considered and like, you know, six or seven years ago, it was thought to be a very rare disorder or a rare thing to experience, and I had a hunch that that wasn't the case. And I also saw that there was a lot of advocacy and awareness and support that needed to happen based off of the input I was receiving from other people with misophonia that nobody was doing there at the time, was one other nonprofit organization dedicated to the misophonia world, and I just wasn't really happy with what they were doing. And what they were doing was not much. They weren't really doing anything from the viewpoint of lived experience. Nobody on their board had misophonia. They were all sort of veteran clinicians, and they weren't doing all of the things that came to my mind as what needed to be done to spread awareness and to further research and on and on. And so I thought, well, I guess it's up to me, as Bob Dylan says, nobody else is doing it, so I have the opportunity to see if maybe it's something I can impact. And have been very fortunate to have some really notable wonderful people sign on early to our board and to sign on to volunteer and to help fund some of our our programs, like our student research grants, is are something that we we give out to graduate students who are interested in researching misophonia for a thesis project or a doctoral dissertation. We can give them some funding to undertake a small study. And we were fortunate enough to find some, some families who had a child with misophonia who wanted to fund that kind of research program. So we've been fortunate. We've We've done some very successful things. Not, not to pat myself on the back too much, because we've had a lot of help, but, but we, based on my experiences in the recovery community, I became a certified peer specialist, which is a something that the state of Missouri certifies after some training. And we started the first peer support program, comprehensive peer support program for misophonia in the world. And so we're training people to be facilitators of peer support groups for misophonia, and just a lot of things that didn't exist that I thought would be nice to have happen, or other people told me that they would like to see as resources for people with misophonia. And so we just try to do the things that people say they want that don't exist.   Michael Hingson ** 33:32 Well, you got to start somewhere. Needless to say, of course, that's right. And and make it work. What's a really great success story that you can point to with so client that's that's really made a difference?   Cris Edwards ** 33:47 Oh, that's a great question. We've got a kind of a weird mishmash of things that we do. We've sort of focused more on the research aspect of it, not only with our research grants, which have been, I think we've given out probably 10 of those in the last few years. But we also have some other research and support based things we just launched, actually kind of relaunched a project that we took on a couple of years ago, where it's just, it's misophoniaproviders.com it's a free website, an online directory of clinicians like psychologists or audiologists who know what misophonia is and and know how to work with clients who have misophonia. And we're working on training for clinicians so that they can get up to speed on it. There aren't really any proven treatments yet for misophonia, but there are ways of working with people who have misophonia, so that you can help them cope and get by and and maybe even test for other conditions and weed those out. And so there's ways of doing that. So we just, we launched a free online directory for for such clinicians in the last month, and we're working on the training for that. And that's really Phil. A huge niche. We decided to focus on that because misophonia is not well known, and we just heard so many people contacting us saying, I went to my doctor or I went to my counselor and said, Hey, I think I have this misophonia. And the counselor or doctor had no idea what it was. They'd never heard of it. They don't know how to work with it. They don't know what to do. And we heard that so much that we just realized that that is a huge bottleneck. If we take the prevalence studies I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, that 5% of the population roughly has misophonia to a moderate or advanced impacting what experience like they have in a way that impacts their life in some way, either they're avoiding situations, or it's affecting their job or their schooling or their relationships. That's still millions of Americans. And if millions of Americans are experiencing this, even at 5% and I can think of maybe 30 clinicians in the entire country that I would feel confident enough telling somebody to go to. That's a huge problem, if only 30 people are handling millions of of of sufferers or people who experience it. So we want to try to tackle that and really make it so that that we're training clinicians on misophonia. It is hard to understand. It's a strange thing for people to get their head wrapped around all of its idiosyncrasies, but I would like to say, hopefully in a year, that there's at least one or two clinicians in every state of the US that can see misophonic clients. Because currently that's not the case. So I think that that seems to be going really well. It's a huge project, but it's, it's really just to try to solve that problem that we hear so much about, and it is heartbreaking. If, if you talk to your trusted clinician about something and you know more about it than they do, that's kind of frustrating.   Michael Hingson ** 36:58 Well, one of the things that that I'm sort of curious about in our modern world there where things continue to get better and so on. Are we seeing yet, any kind of advances, medically speaking and scientifically speaking, to help misophonia, or is it still too new?   Cris Edwards ** 37:15 That's a great question. Yeah, we've been really fortunate. About four years ago, there was a family in the Chicago area that has a daughter with misophonia, and they started what's called the misophonia Research Fund. This is a private fund, family, family funded fund that has provided the money necessary for some very great studies. The the number of studies on misophonia in the last, let's say, three to four years has really ramped up. Researchers find it fascinating because it's so strange, like misophonia doesn't really align with any known conditions or disorders that we understand better, like OCD or ADHD, not that we understand those fully, but it's just it's an anomaly, and people want to learn about it because it's so strange, as far from a medical standpoint, I mean, and fascinating. And so there's been a lot of research on it. And of course, people are struggling every day with it, and would really like to see some kind of treatment in the near future. So there's a number of universities and labs around the world who have been studying this diligently, like at Duke at Baylor Oxford University has has some going on, among others. And yeah, they're coming at this from a variety of aspects. Some of the more recent work from Duke and from Oxford, aren't really, let's say, aren't really treating misophonia itself, but are working on using known practices to help cope with it better, so things like cognitive behavioral therapy, which is a well established psychological practice which covers a lot of different methods, has been shown to be fairly effective at helping people cope better and handle those triggering situations better in life. So there's some of that. Now we have some studies on the brain activity of people with misophonia and and there's about three or four of them that show that the way a person's brain responds with misophonia is different than how somebody who doesn't have it would respond to the same sounds. And so researchers are looking at those different brain areas that are activated in somebody with misophonia when they hear a particular sound and seeing if there's anything that we know of that can affect that. So, long story short, there's a few studies happening now on using existing medications that are on the market to maybe treat misophonia. We don't have the results of those that may not prove to be successful at all, but I. There's one in New York at Mount Sinai testing a very well established medication named called propranolol. That's a beta blocker that's been around for years, that's very affordable. There's some speculation that that might help affect the parts of the brain that misophonia uses, and again, I feel like I'm maybe I've had too much coffee. I feel like I'm being long winded. So I apologize. But as a third part of that, we're also seeing some interest on the technological front for assistive devices. One of the things that I think is really fascinating that has just started is there's a a lab, I think it's an academic lab in Washington state that developed an AI algorithm that is a context aware noise canceling algorithm. I was wondering about that. Yeah, so a lot of people with misophonia now use off the shelf noise canceling headphones. And noise canceling headphones aren't smart. They just knock out a particular frequency and that's it. This is a whole different ball game and and I, the people who have seen the prototypes of it, call it miraculous for misophonia. And the AI wasn't even developed for misophonia. It was developed for audio editing, a completely different use, but if you train this particular noise canceling AI on a type of sound, it learns what that type of sound is, and it can completely remove that sound in a noise canceling function, but not affect any other sounds. So for example, if somebody with misophonia was triggered by bird singing, that's not a real common one, but that, I'll use that as an example. It's a great example, though, yeah, you can train it with the types of bird noise that a particular find, a person finds aversive, and the AI learns what those are, and within the context of its input, can just completely remove those sounds, not based on frequency, but the actual sound itself, actual sound, yeah, and not affect the voices, not affect any other ambient noises at all. And if it works, as people say, that's going to be a wonderful assistive device for people to misophonia. It could be life changing.   Michael Hingson ** 42:07 That'll be a major game changer, because that deals with the basic sound absolutely and you could be in a classroom and not worry about the kids chewing gum   Cris Edwards ** 42:15 precisely. Yep, be cool. So there's a lot of work on, a lot of interest in treatments and stuff, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:22 well, and that's why I asked. It just seems like it would make sense, and I'm glad there's enough of an awareness about it now that people are, in fact, doing more research regarding it. Yeah, I'm assuming that misophonia would be considered a disability,   Cris Edwards ** 42:41 absolutely. Yeah. One of the things that we started off that there was a big, important part of so quiet early days that nobody was really tackling was that misophonia can be a disability. It affected my life. It still affects my life every day in in all kinds of ways which I can go into. But you know, not for everybody. Some people have symptoms of it, and it's not not affecting their life. They're not avoiding things, or it's not impacting their relationships or their their life activities. But when I looked at the, say, the ADA definition of what a disability is. It's pretty broad, and I say what you will about the ADA, it's got plenty of things to criticize, but I think the definition that it uses to determine what is a disability is is pretty open, yeah. And so I appreciate that, and my experience with misophonia absolutely fits that. Misophonia has affected my social life, my schooling, my work. I've quit jobs because my misophonia. When I look back, there's been a couple of jobs that I just walked out of because something was so disturbing to me and my sensory aversion that I've actually left jobs, which I'm not encouraging anybody do that, but you know, it's impacted my life a lot,   Michael Hingson ** 44:01 but you know a lot more now too, I do, yeah, and so that I would think can help make it more possible for you not to quit a job, or that you can change the circumstances so you can perform a job. Yeah,   Cris Edwards ** 44:16 it's very I'm glad you said that. It's very validating to even have the most basic of affirming information. So the fact that it was given a name, this amorphous thing that was hard to explain and hard to describe, now has a has a name, I can tell people Google misophonia, and that will explain things very well. We have a consensus definition. A bunch of researchers about three years ago published in an academic journal just sort of a consensus definition on what we mean when we say misophonia, what this thing is as we understand it. So that helps probably one of our most low tech but popular programs or initiatives was so quiet. Is our free information cards, and these are just business cards, really. They're double sided business cards that say I have misophonia. Here's a brief description of what it is. You're not doing anything wrong, but that that sound is going to be very disturbing to me while I'm around. Would you mind not doing that? Like yeah, thank you for your help. And we printed those because a misophonic reaction is so physiologically uncomfortable, a lot of people feel very irate or frustrated or uncomfortable, or it's impossible to communicate about it in a way that's kind and and helpful when you're having that reaction. And so the cards we send for free to people all over the world. We've sent out 1000s and 1000s of these. The cards do the talking for you when you can't, and you can hand them out to people and help them learn about it. And those have been incredibly popular. But just having tools like that, I use the cards sometimes. If I'm talking to somebody new about it, a stranger or somebody at a that I've never met at a meeting or whatever, I can say, hey, you know, when you get home, you can look more, look up more about this particular thing. But here's what it's called. This is what I experience, and that's why I have the no chewing gum rule at this meeting. You know? But the cards are low tech. They're cheap, but hugely popular. We love sending them out. We sent them to every continent except Antarctica, and just, it's been very helpful in communicating about   Michael Hingson ** 46:23 this. Well, you'll really have arrived when you get to Antarctica. Then, you   Cris Edwards ** 46:28 know, we've reached out to people in Antarctica to see if they know anyone with misophonia. So we're working on that. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 46:33 so low population continent, but still, right? But, you know, it's, it is still definitely an issue that needs to be addressed in so many ways, and it's so exciting that you're doing it. And I go back to the thing that you said earlier about the AI solution. You know, we keep hearing about AI and all the horrible things about it, but the reality is, it is like anything else. It's how we use it, and I think that's a very intriguing process that you're using AI to to deal with sound somebody once told me about the whole issue with noise canceling, and it was some time ago, so it's evolved a lot, but they actually had a house, and they had noise canceling processes around the house. So even in the city, you didn't hear all the city sounds until you got outside and away from the noise canceling And now, of course, it's a whole lot different, because you can do so much more about what you want to filter out.   Cris Edwards ** 47:40 Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely true. And even very low tech solutions, I realized early on, and looking back, I can again, I can put the pieces together, but I like having a little bit of white noise around. So I have box fans around the house, and I leave the exhaust fan in the bathroom in the kitchen on, because it helps muffle things. And that little bit of white noise I find very helpful in in a low tech   Michael Hingson ** 48:07 way, it's not ocean sounds. I   Cris Edwards ** 48:11 actually like ocean sounds. Now, the interesting thing about misophonia is that every person with misophonia has kind of a different involuntary set of sounds that affect them. There's some ones that are fairly common, like eating sounds or poop slurping or whatever, very common. But not everybody with misophonia is triggered by those. And so I actually love the sound of Yeah, ocean waves, cats purring. I find those very relaxing. But not everybody does. Some people hate white noise. I whatever.   Michael Hingson ** 48:43 I like silence, and so, yeah, I like the sound of the ocean and so on. But I also enjoy just sometimes not having anything on. And that's that's just me. But I believe when you're going back to being introspective, when you're really thinking and looking at things internally. It's nice to just be quiet and not have other things that distract you, because then you can really focus on what you need to do and listen to your own inner voice that you might not hear otherwise, absolutely.   Cris Edwards ** 49:16 And one other thing is kind of hard to understand about misophonia is that complete silence is not always preferable. If you're in a completely quiet room, then every little noise is more noticeable, and that could be our problem. So we often joke about there's sort of a middle, middle ground of noise. If we go to a restaurant, you know, finding where the optimal place to sit in a restaurant where you're not likely to be to be a heavier misophonia activated is sort of a mathematical challenge, but a medium busy restaurant is ideal. It's too quiet, then you can hear everybody eating. If it's too noisy, it's overwhelming. There's kind of a general we look for medium busy restaurants as the ideal, because the noise and Chatter is just vague enough to cover up sounds and. That be, I don't know, it's kind of funny   Michael Hingson ** 50:02 today i i don't seem to have any luck at finding very quiet restaurants any rush.   Cris Edwards ** 50:07 That's true. But, um, you know, it's, as everybody who probably listens to your your program knows, it takes a lot of just reconfiguring plans all the time. It's a lot of improvising on the fly to suit our needs. And it's very common for me to go grocery shopping, and then if there's somebody popping their gum that you can hear all over the store, I have to leave, and I'll just have to come back later and finish my grocery shopping. It's just constantly rerouting and re orchestrating what I have planned to fit around the world, and the input that it provides is it's kind of a challenge. I   Michael Hingson ** 50:44 guess I'm weird. I've never really learned to pop gum. I can chew it. I've never been a major gum chewer, but I've never really learned to pop it so I don't make noise like other people did. And in fact, in reality, I didn't learn to blow bubbles with bubble gum until, gosh, it must have been like about 2004 well, 2005 or 2006 I just never learned, but I finally did learn, and that's interesting,   Cris Edwards ** 51:11 yeah, sometimes, like I I'll run into people in public, and I wonder if they have misophonia, whether they realize it or not. This is a strange anecdote, but when my wife were moving from we were moving from Denver to St Louis, and we stopped at a Denny's in the in the middle of Kansas somewhere, and we sat next to this older gentleman who was sitting by himself, and he didn't make any noise when he ate the silver word, never touched the plate. He chewed quietly. He didn't make a single noise. And we both noticed that, and we thought, I wonder if he has misophonia, and he's accommodating for himself, whether he realizes that there's a word for it, and it's a thing like he's being very conscientiously trying not to make any noise when he's eating. It's fascinating   Michael Hingson ** 51:56 for me. I just never learned it. I mean, so I don't think it was an avoidance issue. I just never learned how to do it. And as I say, I finally learned how to blow bubble gum because somebody finally described the process in a way that I was able to emulate it and blow bubbles. But no one had ever described it to be and so having not seen other people do it and see how they do it, it was it was fun. I'm glad I can now blow bubbles, but, yeah,   Cris Edwards ** 52:23 it's that's a that's a skill. One other thing that's interesting that you kind of reminded me of is when we have conditions or disorders like misophonia or miso Kinesia or other sensory aversion or sensory sensitivities, we can oftentimes end up in kind of a accommodations stalemate, where we have conflicting needs. So a lot of people who have, say anxiety disorders or PTSD or anxiety, and a lot of times people with autism, they like to make noises and and do what they call stimming, which is kind of self soothing, repetitive movements, popping bubble wrap is very soothing to them. But for somebody with misophonia like those are the things that we want to avoid. And so sometimes what might make one person comfortable and that they need to be doing for their own serenity is going to be very aversive to people with sensory disorders. And so in a classroom or work environment, sometimes we get these conflicts of needs. It's tough to navigate,   Michael Hingson ** 53:30 yeah, how do you how do you deal with that? I mean, I guess you have the cards that you mentioned. You know, in general, I guess that's kind of the sort of thing that you have to do is to recognize you have to deal with people who aren't necessarily sensitive to what you're wanting to deal with. Yeah,   Cris Edwards ** 53:48 in some of those instances, one of the things we do a lot is right writing advocacy letters from a lived experience standpoint on what misophonia is to help people get accommodations if they need them, and they're usually very simple, no cost or low cost things that people can can ask for at their work or in their their school. But a lot of times, you know that that gives us an impetus to ask for either remote learning, maybe for somebody with misophonia, that's a lot more common now, having a private workspace that's honestly an office, but is is quieter and and that way both people can can have what they need. And yeah, we try to come up with creative solutions to help everybody with accommodations. What   Michael Hingson ** 54:34 would you tell someone today that you encounter who kind of feels helpless and hopeless because they have a condition like misophonia?   Cris Edwards ** 54:41 That's a great question. I think one of the big reasons I started a nonprofit was strictly to help with that people with misophonia, or really, you know, any kind of similar condition or disorder can could kind of start feeling hopeless. Misophonia can be very isolating, like. I said, people avoid interacting with the public or their families or the world at large as a way of of coping. And it can seem like the world in its current state, is not made for people like us. The world is a noisy place. Yeah, we're we're in a society. And so it can, it can start. You can kind of get down in a in a hopelessness pit, as I call it, kind of a depression hole, thinking, well, am I cut out for the world? You know, what kind of job am I going to have? I have to work with other people. I have to go to school with other people. I actually like talking to other people. I just can't I sort of compare it sometimes to an allergy, so a person with, say, a peanut allergy might actually like peanuts. They just can't have them. And so I try to tell people that all hope is not lost, even though we don't have a proven treatment yet, we should in the future, things are getting better. We have a lot of things now that we didn't have when I was growing up, as far as information and support and a community that all understands this and those things can be wonderful. We have peer support meetings and just to hear, hear somebody say, you know, I've never met another person before today who had misophonia, and knowing that this thing that I have had such a hard time explaining to my family, that you all get it, you all know what it's like, and when nobody else in my life truly gets it, that's That's amazing. All hope is not lost. And one day at a time, we can kind of get through. And it's a challenge, as it is with any disability to get get through, hour by hour, but over over time. You know, I, I feel like my life is going well, even with my invisible disabilities or invisible disorders. Just takes a little extra work, a little more creativity, little more understanding from other people, so on, so forth. But   Michael Hingson ** 56:55 you synthesize that and you understand it, which is important. So you've, you've had that blessing, and I'm glad that you're able to pass that on to other people being being curious and nosy. As I mentioned earlier, we got introduced to Sheldon. How did you guys meet?   Cris Edwards ** 57:09 That's a great question. You know, I was for a completely unrelated reason. I was looking at business websites. I for our website, or so quiet website I wanted to put together terms and conditions. Now, geeky people know that pretty much any website you visit for a business organization, there's some page on their website that is the terms and conditions for using a website. Most people don't venture into those because they're just legalese, but they exist. So I was looking at some examples. What's that? But they exist. They exist. Yeah, for legal aficionados, but I was looking, I think you, if I remember correctly, and don't quote me on this, I think it was the Dr Bronner's soap page had this little accessibility button in the lower right corner of every page of their site. And I was like thinking, what is that? So I clicked on it, and I brought up this really cool, robust menu of accessibility options for visual impairments, ADHD, you know, helping you focus on things, just any kind of thing you can imagine, as far as ways that you can change a website to make it more accessible was on there, and that blew my mind. And of course, running a nonprofit with a very popular website that's based around particularly sensory disabilities, I had to reach out and and I found out that it was the access be plugin, it's very easy to install on our website. And so I reached out, and they put me in touch with Sheldon, who who helped us get on board and add it to our website, and has been really very helpful and a good advocate for people like us, and it's been working for you? Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm really delighted to have that on our website and be able to offer that to everybody who visits us.   Michael Hingson ** 59:01 Well, that's cool. I'm glad that it's working well and that it's helping people be able to interact more with the site. And you're right. It's got a lot of different profiles. And the neat thing about accessibe is it continues to grow and expand, and so much more than it used to be. And then we'll continue to do that, which is another example of AI. It's not kind of everything as perfectly as one would like, but there are other alternatives that accessibe has for websites that are more complex, but still, the fact that you're able to make it work, and it's enhancing your website that's as good as it gets. Yeah,   Cris Edwards ** 59:36 and I think, if I remember correctly again, I'm kind of new to accessibe, but I think part of the AI is that it generates image descriptions kind of magically, which blows my mind. Some are   Michael Hingson ** 59:47 more accurate than others, maybe so, but that's okay. But you know what? They're getting better all the time. That's the real issue. And so images that may not be described with. The AI technology and described well today might very well be much more accurately described in six months. That's the neat thing about accessibe. It is so scalable, it is and it makes it possible when, when any improvements are made to accessibe, it improves every site that uses   Cris Edwards ** 1:00:20 automatically. Cool, yeah, yeah. And I just, while we were talking, I think I'll reach out to Sheldon, because I just had an idea for a feature that I don't think is on there that I could recommend, and that is white noise and brown noise as an option, a little player. We added a brown noise player to our website, but if that was a part of the accessibility options to have kind of a white noise or, ah, I think I'll recommend that to Sheldon. We'll see what happens.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:43 Make sense? See what happens. Yeah. Well, if people are speaking of reaching out, want to reach out to you and learn more about so quiet and so on. How do they do that? That's   Cris Edwards ** 1:00:52 a great question. You can visit our website. It's just so quiet.org. You can find us on pretty much every social media platform. We have the same handle for everyone. It's so quiet org. Or you can email me at hello at so quiet.org   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:08 There you go. Well, people will reach out. It is easy, likewise, and I think that's so cool. Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been very informative and a lot of fun, and I've learned a lot, I love to say that if I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else who listens to the podcast, I'm not doing my job right. Yeah, I really enjoyed learning and really valued the time we got to spend. So you are always welcome to come back any old time you want, if you got other things to chat about. Have you written any books yet? No, to work. Get to work.   Cris Edwards ** 1:01:41 I'm thinking about that. You know, there's actually only been one book on misophonia published by a major publisher, in other words, that wasn't self published, and that came out last year by Dr Jane Gregory. She's a great collaborator of ours, but maybe I will write a book, but I'll tell you, Michael, it's it's been wonderful. I thank you so much for having me on your on your podcast and for doing what you do, it's been a delight to learn your story as well and learn about, you, know, your experiences and and we talked a little bit about philosophy and self reflection, and that's it's just been wonderful being on here. So thank you so   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:13 much. Well, this has been fun, and I hope that all of you listening out there have enjoyed this. I'd love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts. Love to hear what you like, maybe what you didn't, but I hope you liked it all you can reach me easily enough. It's Michael M, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O n.com/podcast, and wherever you're watching or listening, please give us a five star rating. We love getting ratings, and we appreciate the high ratings that that you give us and then and any input that you have. And Chris for you and anyone out there who is encountering the podcast. If you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest, please let me know we are always looking for more people to come on uns

I want to introduce you to our guest this time, Fred Dummar. I met Fred through Susy Flory who helped me write Thunder Dog. Fred is taking a class from Susy on writing and is well along with his first book. I look forward to hearing about its publishing sometime in 2025.   Fred hails from a VERY small town in Central Nevada. After high school Fred went to the University of Nevada in Reno. While at University, Fred joined the Nevada National Guard which helped him pay his way through school and which also set him on a path of discovery about himself and the world. After college Fred joined the U.S. army in 1990. He was accepted into the Special Forces in 1994 and served in various locations around the world and held ranks from Captain through Colonel.   Fred and I talk a fair amount about leadership and how his view of that subject grew and changed over the years. He retired from the military in 2015. He continues to be incredibly active serving in a variety of roles in both the for profit and nonprofit arenas.   I love Fred's leadership style and philosophy. I hope you will as well. Fred has lots of insights that I believe you will find helpful in whatever you are doing.       About the Guest:   Colonel (Retired) Fred Dummar was born and raised in the remote town of Gabbs, Nevada. He enlisted in the Nevada National Guard in 1986 and served as a medic while attending the University of Nevada. He was commissioned as an Infantry Officer in the U.S. Army in April 1990.   Fred was selected for Special Forces in 1994 and went on to command at every level in Special Forces from Captain to Colonel. He trained and deployed in many countries, including Panama, Venezuela, Guyana, Nigeria, Zambia, Botswana, Malawi, Mozambique, Namibia, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Most notably, Col Dummar participated in the liberation of Kurdish Northern Iraq in 2003, assisting elements of the Kurdish Peshmerga (resistance fighters) with the initial liberation of Mosul.   Colonel Dummar's last tour in uniform was as the Commander of the Advisory Group for Afghan Special Forces from May 2014 to June 2015. Immediately after retiring, he returned to Afghanistan as a defense contractor to lead the Afghan Army Special Operations Command and Special Mission Wing training programs until May 2017.   Beginning in 2007 and continuing until 2018, Fred guided his friend, who was blinded in Iraq, through 40 Marathons, several Ultra marathons, climbing Mount Kilimanjaro, running with the bulls in Pamplona, and a traverse of the Sahara Desert to raise funds and awareness for Special Forces Soldiers. He personally ran numerous Ultramarathons, including 23 separate 100-mile runs and over a hundred races from 50 miles to marathon.   Fred graduated from the U.S. Army Command and Staff College and the U.S. Army War College with master's degrees in military art and science, strategy, and policy. He is currently pursuing a Doctoral Degree in Organizational Psychology and Leadership.   Since retiring from the Army in 2015, Fred has led in nonprofit organizations from the Board of Directors with the Special Forces Charitable Trust (2015-2022) as the Chief of Staff for Task Force Dunkirk during the evacuation of Afghan Allies in August 2021, as a leadership fellow with Mission 43 supporting Idaho's Veterans (2020-2023), and as a freshwater advocate with Waterboys with trips to East Africa in 2017 and 2019 to assist in funding wells for remote tribes.   Fred has led in the civilian sector as the Senior Vice President of Legacy Education, also known as Rich Dad Education, from 2017-2018 and as the startup CEO for Infinity Education from 2021-2022, bringing integrity and compassion to Real Estate Education. Fred continues investing in Real Estate as a partner in Slate Mountain Homes, Idaho and trains new investors to find, rehab, and flip manufactured homes with Alpine Capital Solutions.   Fred is married to Rebecca Dummar, and they reside in Idaho Falls, Idaho, with three of their children, John, Leah, and Anna. Their daughter Alana attends the University of Michigan.   Ways to connect with Fred:   Here is a link to my webpage - https://guidetohuman.com/ Here is a link to my Substack where I write - https://guidetohuman.substack.com/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity and the unexpected meet, but it's more fun to talk about unexpected than inclusion or diversity, although it is relevant to talk about both of those. And our guest today is Fred Dummar. It is pronounced dummar or dumar. Dummar, dummar, see, I had to do that. So Fred is a person I met Gosh about seven or eight months ago through Susy Flory, who was my co author on thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust at ground zero. And Susy introduced us because Fred is writing a book. We're going to talk about that a bunch today, and we'll also talk about Fred's career and all sorts of other things like that. But we've had some fascinating discussions, and now we finally get to record a podcast, so I'm glad to do that. So Fred Dummar, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Fred Dummar ** 02:22 Yeah, no. Thanks for having me. Michael, yeah, we've had some some interesting discussions about everything unstoppable mind and blindness and diversity. And yeah, it's good to be on here.   Michael Hingson ** 02:34 Yeah. And one of the things I know that you have done is ran with a blind marathoner, and I'm anxious to hear about that, as well as what an ultra marathon is. We'll get to that, however. But why don't we start by you may be talking a little bit about kind of the early freight growing up and all that you grew up in, in Nevada, in a in a kind of remote place. So I'm going to just leave it to you to talk about all   Fred Dummar ** 02:57 that. Yeah, Michael, so, and actually, that's part of my, part of my story that I'm writing about. Because, you know, obviously, where we're from forms a large basis of how we sometimes interact with the world. And I came from a very remote town in Nevada. It's dying, by the way. I'm not sure how long that town will be with us, but, yeah, being from a small town where, you know, graduating class was 13 kids, and it's an hour to the closest place that you could watch a movie or get fast food, those types of things, it's definitely a different type of childhood, and much one, much more grounded in self reliance and doing activities that you can make up yourself, right? Instead of being looking for others to entertain you.   Michael Hingson ** 03:50 Yeah, I hear you. So what was it like growing up in a small town? I grew up in Palmdale, California, so it was definitely larger than where you grew up, we had a fairly decent sized High School senior graduating class. It wasn't 13, but what was it like growing up in that kind of environment?   Fred Dummar ** 04:12 Yeah, it was. It was one where you know, not only did you know everybody, everybody else knew you, and so you could pretty much count on anyone in the town for for assistance or, or, you know, if, I guess, if you were on the house for not, not assistance, so, but no, it was. It was a great place to have many, many, many friends from there. But it was, certainly was an adjustment, because I think growing up, there are our sort of outlook on life for us, you know, certainly from the people that that ran our high school and the other adults, most people were seen as, you know, your life after high school would be going to work at one of. The mines, or going to work on one of the, you know, family cattle ranch or something like that. So making the jump from there to, you know, even a few hours away to Reno, you know, to start at the University of Nevada, that was a big it's a big jump from for me, and because the school is so small, I ended up graduating from high school when I was 16, so I barely had a driver's license, and now I am several hours away and Reno, Nevada, going to the university. And, you know, quite an adjustment for me.   Michael Hingson ** 05:32 It's interesting. A few days ago, I had the opportunity to do a podcast episode with someone who's very much involved and knows a lot about bullying and so on, and just listening to you talk, it would seem like you probably didn't have a whole lot of the bully type mentality, because everyone was so close, and everyone kind of interacted with each other, so probably that sort of stuff wasn't tolerated very well. Yeah,   Fred Dummar ** 05:59 it was, it was more so outsiders. I mean, kids that had grown up there all sort of, you know, knew where they were or weren't in the pecking order. Things and things sort of stayed kind of steady stasis, without a lot of bullying. But yeah, new kids coming in. That's where you would see for me, from my recollection of growing up to that's where, you know, I remember that type of behavior coming out when, when you know, a new kid would come into the town,   Michael Hingson ** 06:31 was it mainly from the new kids or from the kids who are already there?   Fred Dummar ** 06:34 From the kids? Sometimes it was the integration, right? Some people integrate into new environments better than others. And you know, generally, no problems for those folks. But some, you know, it takes a bit more. And in a place like that, if you're you know, if you're seen as different, so you know to your theory on or your you know the topics you cover on diversity and inclusion. Sometimes when you're the one that that looks different or acts different in an environment like that, you definitely stick out, and then you become the target of of bullying.   Michael Hingson ** 07:10 What? What happens that changes that for a kid? Then, you know, so you're you're different or in one way or another. But what happens that gets kids accepted? Or do they?   Fred Dummar ** 07:21 Yeah, I don't know. I think, I think it's learning to embrace just who you are and doing your own thing. I think if you know, if you're trying to force yourself into an environment that doesn't want to accept you, I'm not sure that that's ever an easy battle for anyone. But just being yourself and doing your own thing. I think that's, that's the way to go, and that's certainly, you know, what I learned through my life was I wasn't one of the kids that planned on staying there and working in the mind, and I wasn't, you know, my family was, you know, at that point, my mom and dad owned the, the only grocery store in town, and I certainly wasn't going back to run the family business. So, you know, look, looking for a way, you know, for something else to do outside of that small town was certainly number one on my agenda, getting out of there. So being myself and and learning to adapt, or, as you know the saying goes, right, learning to be instead of being a fish in a small pond, learning to be a fish in a much larger pond,   Michael Hingson ** 08:27 yeah, well, and there's, there's a lot of growth that has to take place for that to occur, but it's understandable. So you graduated at 16, and then what did you do after   Fred Dummar ** 08:38 my uh, freshman year at college, which I funded by, you know, sort of Miss, Miss misleading people or lying about my age so that I could get a job at 16 and working construction and as an apprentice electrician. And that funded my my freshman year of college. But, you know, as as as my freshman year was dragging on, I was wondering, you know, hey, how I was going to continue to fund my, you know, continued universe my stay at the university, because I did not want to go, you know, back back back home, sort of defeated, defeated by that. So I started looking into various military branches of military service, and that's when it happened upon the National Guard, Nevada National Guard, and so I joined the National Guard. And right after, you know, I think it was five days after I turned 17, so as soon as I could, I signed up, and that summer after my freshman year, I left for training for the National Guard. Missed first semester of my sophomore year, but then came back and continued on with my university studies using, you know, my the educational benefits that came from being in the National Guard.   Michael Hingson ** 09:55 So you're in the National Guard, but that wasn't a full time thing, so you were able to go back and. Continue education. Yeah,   Fred Dummar ** 10:01 it was, you know, it's a typical one weekend a month, one weekend a month for duty. Typically, we would go in on a Friday night, spend Saturday and Sunday for duty. So we get a, you know, small check for that. And then we were also allowed to draw, you know, the GI Bill and the state of Nevada had a program at the time where you didn't get paid upfront for your classes, but at the end of every semester, you could take your final report card and for every class, for every credit that you had a C or higher, they would reimburse you. So yeah, so they were essentially paying my tuition, and then, you know, small stipend every month from the GI Bill. And then, you know, my National Guard check, so and in the 80s, you know, when I was going to school, that that was enough to keep, you know, define my education. And where did you go to school? At the University of Nevada in   Michael Hingson ** 10:59 Reno, in Reno, okay, yeah, so, so you kind of have ended up really liking Reno, huh?   Fred Dummar ** 11:07 Yeah, I, yeah. I became sort of home city. Obviously, no one would ever really know where. You know, if I would have mentioned that I grew up in a town called gaps, most people would, you know, not, not really understand. I sometimes, if they're, you know, press and say, hey, you know, where are you really? Because, you know, often say, Hey, I went to school in Reno. If they say, where did you grow up? I'll, you know, it's a longer conversation. I'll be like, okay, so if you put your finger, like, right in the middle of Nevada, in the absolute middle of nowhere, that's where I grew up.   Michael Hingson ** 11:40 Well, you know, people need to recognize and accept people for who they are, and that doesn't always happen, which is never fun, but Yeah, gotta do what you can do, yes, well, so Reno, on the other hand, is a is a much larger town, and probably you're, a whole lot more comfortable there than you than you were in Gabs, but that's okay. So yeah, so you went to the university. You got a bachelor's, yep, and then what did you do?   Fred Dummar ** 12:11 Yeah. Well, so along the way, while I was in the National Guard, you know, being a medic, right? I was convinced by a lieutenant that met me. I was actually doing the physical, because it was one of the things our section did when I was first in, you know, we gave the medical physicals, and this lieutenant said, you know, you should come transfer our unit. The unit was an infantry unit, and I became their only medic. And so that was much better than working in a medical section for a helicopter unit where I'd been and and the lieutenants, you know, said that I should consider joining ROTC, since I was already going to the university. So I did in my junior year, started the Reserve Officer Training Corps there at the University of Nevada. And so when I graduated college in the winter of 89 I accepted a commission into the army. So then a few months later, I was, I was off on my my Grand Army adventure,   Michael Hingson ** 13:11 alright, and then what did you do?   Fred Dummar ** 13:15 So, yeah, that was, you know, because it was an infantry Lieutenant went to Fort Benning, Georgia, and I believe now the army calls it fort Moore, but yeah, I trained there for about a year, doing all of the tasks necessary to become an infantry officer. And then I went down to Panama, when the US still had forces in the country of Panama. And I spent two and a half years down there was that past mariega, yeah, right after, because I had graduated from college in December of 89 while operation just caused to get rid of Noriega was happening. So year after my infantry training, I sort of ended up in Panama, and sort of as at the time, thinking it was bad luck, you know, because if you're in the army, you know, you want to, kind of want to go where things are happening. So I'm in Panama the year after the invasion, while Saddam Hussein is invading Kuwait, and everyone else is rushing to the desert, and I'm sitting in the jungle. So, you know, as a as a young person, you start to think, you know, oh, you know, hey, I'm missing. I'm missing the big war. I should be at the war, you know. So that was an interesting take, not what I would have now, but you know, as a young man,   Michael Hingson ** 14:31 what caused you to revise that view, though? Or time,   Fred Dummar ** 14:37 yeah, yeah. Just, just time. And, you know, later in life, you know, after, uh, serving combat rotations in Iraq and Afghanistan, I realized it wasn't something one needed to rush towards,   Michael Hingson ** 14:48 really quite so bad, where you were, yeah. So,   Fred Dummar ** 14:52 yeah, I spent a couple years in Panama, then I came back to Fort Benning, uh, Fort Moore, and worked at the Army's Airborne School. So. Uh, you know, the place that teaches people how to jump out of airplanes. And I did that for for a year. So it's, it's really fun because watching, you know, watching people go through the process of of training to jump out of an aircraft, and then sort of their very first time on an aircraft might takes off, and you can see the, you know, sort of the realization that they're not going to land with the plane for the first time in their life. You know, they're they're not going to be in the plane when it lands. That's always, you know, it's always a good time. And then, of course, when you know, then there's another realization, moment when the doors pop open right, and the doors, doors on the aircraft are opened so the jump masters can start making checks, you know, and out, yeah, and they're looking, you know, their eyes get larger and larger, you know, as as preparations for the jump. You know, when they're stood up and they're hooked up inside the aircraft, and then finally, you know, told to exit. Yeah, it's interesting. And during the time when I worked there, that's when I was eligible, because I was a senior lieutenant at that time, that I could apply to become a Green Beret. I could go through special forces training if I was selected. So I left from Fort Benning, I went up to Fort Bragg, now fort liberty, and went through the selection, Special Forces Assessment, selection, and was selected to become a Special Forces soldiers that I went to Fort Bragg, you know, spent the year or so becoming qualified to be a special forces team leader, and then the next I spent the next 20 years of my Army career in various units at at Fort liberty, and third Special Forces Group, Special Forces Command, seven Special Forces Group, Special Operations recruiting, just, you know, bouncing around in different assignments and then, but obviously during that time, 911, happened, and you know, was on the initial invasion in 2003 up in, up into the north. We were flying in from Romania, you know, before the war started. And so being there during that phase of the Iraq combat in Iraq, and then going to Afghanistan and and spending multiple, multiple tours and multiple years in Afghanistan. So, so   Michael Hingson ** 17:25 did you do much jumping out of airplanes?   Fred Dummar ** 17:29 Yeah, in combat, no. But over the years, yeah, I accumulated quite a few jumps. Because what, you know, every, every unit I was ever assigned to while I was in the army was always one that was, you know, airborne, which are, you know, the designation for units that jump out of airplanes. So   Michael Hingson ** 17:47 have to, yeah, yeah. Well, you're a pretty level headed kind of guy. What was it like the first time you jumped? I mean, you described what it looked like to other people. Do you think that was basically the same for you, or did you, yeah, kind of a thicker skin,   Fred Dummar ** 18:01 yeah, no, no, I think, I think that's why I was able to, you know, in large measure, that's how a lot of us are able to have empathy, right? If we've, if we've, if we've been through it, and we are able to access the memory of, okay, what was it like when I was doing it? It allows us to be, you know, more compassionate to the people that are going through it at that moment for the first time, but yeah, I can remember being in the plane, and then you know, that realization is like, hey, you know, in the pit of your stomach, I'm not, I'm not landing with this plane. And then, you know, the doors opening up, you're like, you know, kind of hey, those, I don't know what the gates of hell look like, but right now, that's that's in my mind, what, what they would look like, you know, and then going out the first time, and and then I think the second time might have been worse, because it was the anticipation of, oh, wait a minute, we're doing that again. And by the but if you do five jumps to qualify before you're given your parachute as badge, so I think by the third one, I'd come to terms with, with, with dealing and managing. You know, you know the fear of it, of leaving an airplane. And people you know often ask, you know when, when you're older and you're past the 100 jump mark, you know it's like, still, is there still fear and like, I think, I think, if there's not, I mean, then you know, there's probably something wrong with you, but, but it's not, it's nowhere near you know how it is when you know your First learning and your first learning to trust yourself and trust the equipment and trust the process. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 19:45 what you're learning a little bit along the way is to how to control fear. And you mentioned my book earlier, the one that's coming out live like a guide dog, which is all about trying to teach people to control fear, because we have so many things happen to. Us, or we think about so many things, that we develop so many fears consciously or not, that when something does unexpectedly happen to us, especially something that isn't necessarily a positive thing, we just automatically go into a fear reaction mode. And the the reality is it doesn't need to be that way you can learn to control fear, which is what we talk about in live like a guide dog, because it's important that people recognize you can learn to control fear. I would never say, Don't be afraid. Yeah, but I think you can learn to control fear, and by doing so, then you use that fear to help guide you and give you the the the the tools to really be able to move forward and focus. But most people don't really spend much time doing that. They don't learn introspection. They don't learn how to to slow down and analyze and develop that mind muscle so that later you can analyze incredibly quickly.   Fred Dummar ** 21:06 Yeah, we in the army, we call that stress inoculation, good description, you know, it's, you know, once you're, once you're, you've learned to deal with stress, or deal with, you know, stressful, fearful things. Then, you know, the next time you're you're better equipped. And that fear and that stress can be, you know, can be continually amped up. I used to laugh when I was doing Special Forces recruiting, because the you know, it would require a special physical for candidates to go get a special physical before they could come to training. And one of the boxes we would joke about was, I have no fear of heights or enclosed spaces. No everybody has those fears, is whether you can, you can manage those fears and deal with. You know, things are very uncomfortable. Well, that's   Michael Hingson ** 22:05 really it. It's all about managing. And so I'm sure that they want you to check no, that you don't have those fears when you're when you're going through. But at the same time, what you're hopefully really saying is you can manage it. Yeah,   Fred Dummar ** 22:20 that you can manage and that's why I was saying, that's why I would always laugh, because of course, everyone has those fears and but learning to deal with them and and how you deal with them, and that that's, you know, one of the things I discuss in one of the chapters of the book I'm writing is, is, you know when fear, when fear comes to You, you know, how do you deal with it and how do you overcome it? I think people are more and more recognizing you know that there are techniques through stress inoculation, you know, things like that. They'll teach you how you can overcome fear. And you know simple breathing techniques to you know, slow down your breathing and engage your brain, not just your brain stem, right? When you breathe, it fast, your brain stem is in charge, not your brain and yeah, and think your way through things, rather than just reacting as a, you know, as a frightened animal,   Michael Hingson ** 23:19 right? And it's one of the things that that, as I discuss in the book, and I talk to people about now a lot, that although I didn't realize it for many years, after September 11, I had developed a mindset on that day that said, You know what to do, because I had spent a lot of time learning what to do, how to deal with emergencies, what the rules were, and all that, and all of that just kicked in on September 11, which is as good as it could get.   Fred Dummar ** 23:45 Yeah. Well, Michael, you have a you have a distinct advantage. You had a distinct advantage a couple of them, but, but one being, you know, because you already live in a world without light in your sight, you're not dependent on that. And so another, when other people are, you know, in, you know, when I'm reading the book, I'm nodding my head knowingly, you know, as you're talking about being in the stairwell and other people being frightened, and you're just like, this is okay. This is an average, I mean, maybe unusual circumstances, but an average day for me,   Michael Hingson ** 24:21 yeah. But they side of it is, I know lots of blind people who would be just as much in fear as anyone else. It's the fact is, of course, we didn't know what was going on. Yes, September 11, a   Fred Dummar ** 24:35 bit of ignorance is bliss, right? Yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 24:38 that was true for everyone. I had a great imagination. I could tell you that I imagine things that could happen that were a whole lot worse than in a sense, what did, but I, but I like science fiction and horror, so I learned how to imagine well, but the fact is that it isn't so much being blind that's an advantage, really. Really was the preparation. And so the result was that I had done that. And you know, of course, the airplane hit 18 floors above us on the other side of the building. So the reality is going down the stairs. None of us knew what happened. We figured out an airplane hit the building because we started smelling the fumes from burning jet fuel. But by the same token, that was all we knew. We didn't even know that tower two had been hit until, well, much later, when we got outside, colleagues saw David Frank, my colleague saw tower two was on fire, but we still didn't know what it was from. So yeah, the the fact is that blindness may or may not really be an advantage, but preparation certainly was, yeah,   Fred Dummar ** 25:43 how you reacted, how you reacted to being blind. Because, yeah, you can just, just like anything, right? You can react in in several different ways, and how you acted, how you built your life around,   Michael Hingson ** 25:54 sure. And most people, of course, just rely on reading signs. And so they also have the fear, what if I can't read the signs. What if there's smoke and all that? And again, they they build fears rather than doing the smart thing, which is just to learn what to do in the case of an emergency when you're in a building like that. But you know, it is part of what what we do talk about, and it is, it is pretty important that people start to learn a little bit more that they can control fear. I mean, we have in our in our whole world, politicians who just do nothing but promote fear, and that's unfortunate, because we all buy into it, rather than stepping back and go, Wait a minute. It doesn't need to be that way.   Fred Dummar ** 26:37 Yeah, I think the other thing, like you talked about your your preparation and training. And I always that was one of the way ways, or one of the things that brought me to ultra marathoning, you know, after my initial training in Special Forces, was, you know, if you're, if you're going to push your capacity to see, you know what you're what you're really capable of, or build, you know, build additional reserves. So, you know, if you are counted on to do something extraordinary or in extenuating circumstances, what do you really have, you know, yeah, how far can you really push yourself? And so it really brought me into the sport of ultra running, where, you know, the distances, or those distances that exceed a marathon. So a marathon being, you know, 26 miles, yeah. So the first ultra marathon is a 50k because, you know, Marathon is 42 so eight kilometers farther. And then the next, general, you know, length is 50 miles. And then there's some other, you know, 100k which is 62 miles. And then, kind of the, although, you know, now we see, see races longer, but kind of the the longest distance being 100 mile race and so, and the gold standard in 100 mile racing being, you know, for most, most courses, every course being different, but for most courses, is to finish under 24 hours, so within one one day, but to keep moving for one, you know, one entire day while, you know, while fueling yourself and and, and some people say, Well, you Know, wow, that pace doesn't seem that fast. Troy   Michael Hingson ** 28:22 yourself then and see, yeah,   Fred Dummar ** 28:24 and, like a lot of things, it doesn't, it doesn't exactly seem fast until you're factoring in, okay, but you're still gonna have to stop at some point to you, you know, relieve yourself, and you're gonna have to, you know, walk while you eat. And, you know, there's hills to climb and all these other sorts of obstacles. So, yeah, finishing under 24 hours is, you know, sort of the, you know, the standard, I guess, for the people want to achieve. And anyway, yeah, I became, for a bit there, became addicted to it. And then, so when I met Ivan, my friend, who you were talking about, who, who was, was blinded in in Iraq in 2006 when I met him, he had already been injured, and I realized that he really wanted to run marathons. He'd run one, and had to use, like, several different guides, right? You know, there were different people jumping in and out, and it really wasn't an ideal situation for him and he and he also needed someone who who wanted to do that, who would be a reliable training partner, right? Because it's not like, okay, you know, you might be able to find people that show up on marathon day. Want to run the marathon, or a few people, but, you know, day in, day out, to be training. And so I was like, Hey, this is one of those things that ends up in your path, right, that you can, maybe you can walk around it, but, but for me, when I, you know, when I saw. I was like, Okay, this was, this was something that, you know, for whatever reason, is on my path. I meant to do it. I meant to be the guy that does this. And so, yeah, we started training together. And, you know, ended up running 40 plus marathons together, you know, from London, Chicago, you know, every, every the Marine Corps Marathon, just everywhere. And, you know, summiting Mount Kilimanjaro and running with the bulls together. And then our last race was, it's often referred to as, you know, the world's toughest foot race. It's the marathon to Saab, and it's a, it's a distance race of 150 some miles across the Sahara Desert. And they break it up into stages. So on different days, some days, you run 30 miles. Some days, you know, 26 one day is a 50. I think we were at 53 miles on one of the days. But anyway, and you start the you start that race with whatever you're going to eat and whatever you're going to need, you know, in terms of gear on your back. And the only thing that's provided to you during the race is water. So, and that was our kind of, you know, he's like, I don't know how much longer I'm going to be able to run, and so I just want to do that before I stop. I stopped, right? So, but anyway, yeah, so that was how I ended up meeting my friend Ivan, and, you know, over the course of a decade and a half, we did all of these, you know, what some people think are incredibly dumb things, but, you know, sort of embracing the discomfort of training and competing to, you know, to make ourselves better, you know? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 31:44 so while you were in the military, I know you mentioned earlier something about doing some work in as a medic. Did you do that most of your time? Were you specializing in that? Or what?   Fred Dummar ** 31:54 No, no, that was only when I early on, when I was a soldier, I was a medic, and then when I was commissioned, I was commissioned, I was commissioned as an infantry officer, and then, and then, when it became Special Forces, you know, the officer is, sort of has, has no specialty other than leading the team. The team has medics and weapons guys and engineers and communicators and all that. But, you know, the officers sort of assigned as the as the planning the planning agent, you know, the to lead the team, rather than have any of the specialties,   Michael Hingson ** 32:30 right? And you participated long enough that you rose to the rank of colonel. Yeah, yeah, my participation   Fred Dummar ** 32:38 trophy was attaining the rank of colonel. And I would often tell people the arm don't think the army doesn't have a sense of humor. I was promoted to Colonel on April 1, so April Fool's days when, when I was promoted? And yeah, and I, after almost 30 years in uniform, retired in 2015 so I don't know that I would have went that long. But you know, they're about the middle of my career, from 1986 to 2015 you know 911 happened, and for me, it wasn't, it wasn't really a choice to to leave. Then, you know, it was like, Okay, we, you know, we have to do this. These Iraq and Afghanistan. In fact, my my very last, my last year in in uniform. I was in Afghanistan as an advisor to the Afghan commandos. And when I returned from that tour, you know, was told that, hey, I had to, I had to finally leave Fort Bragg after 20 years and and either go to, you know, the Pentagon or another headquarters. And that's when I decided to retire. Because it was like, okay, you know, if, if the wars don't need me anymore, then I, I can go home and do other things. Yeah, I can do other things. If the wars don't need me, you know, then I can probably hang it up. So   Michael Hingson ** 34:11 when did you get married? So   Fred Dummar ** 34:15 over the course of my Army career, I was divorced twice. Yeah, it's just not an easy No, it's not. It's just not an easy lifestyle. I'm not making any excuses for my own failings in that regard. But, you know, it is, it is, I think, easier to become emotionally detached from someone, especially, you know, as in my case, I think I often put the army, first, the army, my soldiers, the mission, you know, as the first on my mind. And you know, for someone else, you know that to be a pretty strong person, to sit in the back seat during that so. And I did not have any children and then, but after I retired, when went through my second and four. I met someone. And so, yeah, we were married in in 2020, and so I had a, I was able, you know, after not having children, my first son was born when I was 50. So I have a son who's, you know, four, four years old, four going on five. And then we decided that, you know, he should have someone to be with. So we were going to have a second child. And my wife had twins, so I have twin, three year old girls. So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 35:37 you're going to do it. You might as well go all the way, huh?   Fred Dummar ** 35:40 Yeah, and and, and I haven't, and I adopted Rebecca's older, the child that she that she had. And so now we have four children, Alana being much older, she's already finished for freshman year at the University of Michigan, and this get ready to go back to Ann Arbor and continue her studies and and then we have, you know, the small pack of humans that are still here in their pre, pre kindergarten phase. So   Michael Hingson ** 36:10 she is a a Wolverine fan, and there will ever be an Ohio State Buckeye,   Fred Dummar ** 36:18 yeah, something like that. Yeah, that rivalry is pretty intense. And, you know, never being part of a school that was, you know, in that, in that division, you know, not really realizing, well, you know, watching college football, I kind of understand the rival, all the rivalries. But once she started going to Michigan, and, you know, attending a football game there myself. And then, unfortunately, you know, we were able to go to the Rose Bowl this year, which, you know, when Michigan played Alabama. So we were able to go to that together. So, yeah, it was, it's interesting to learn that dynamic. And like, I tell her, it's like, never, never take for granted being part of a big school like that without those sorts of traditions. Absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 37:06 Yeah, I went to UC Irvine, so we didn't really have a lot with with football, but my wife did her graduate work at USC, and I always like to listen to USC football games. I judge a lot about sports teams by the announcers they hire, I gotta say. And so we've been always so blessed out here in California, although I think that announcing isn't quite what it used to be, but we had good announcers that announced for USC out here on I think it was originally on Kx, and then it went to other stations. But anyway, when we got married, the wedding started late because a bunch of people were sitting out in their cars waiting for the end of the USC Notre Dame game. And so the wedding was 15 minutes late starting because everybody was waiting to see who was going to win the game. And I am quite pleased to say that we won, and God was on our side, as opposed to Notre Dame. And, yeah, the marriage lasted 40 years, so until she, she passed away in 2022 but I love to tell people that, you know, God clearly was on our side, especially when I tell that to my Notre Dame friends,   Fred Dummar ** 38:15 yeah, the touch touchdown, Jesus wasn't, wasn't there for them, not   Michael Hingson ** 38:19 that day. Yeah, but, but, you know, and there's college football is, is in a lot of ways, I just think so much more fun, or it has been than professional. But, you know, now a lot more money is getting into it, which is unfortunate too. Yeah,   Fred Dummar ** 38:37 I think that's caused some of the you know, teams re evaluate what they what they do happen, how they operate. And I think it's forced some of the older coaches to leave the game, yeah, because it's not the game they recognize, so not   Michael Hingson ** 38:53 what they had well. So you've been to a variety of different places. You've been a leader. And I think it's pretty clear that you really still are, but how did all the the different experiences, the different places that you went to, and all the the experiences that you participated in, how does that affect and shape your leadership style?   Fred Dummar ** 39:19 Yeah, Michael, you know, I think one of the first things, right, if you when your surface looking, and some people never go below the surface. So when you talk about things like diversity and inclusion, the things, the things that they will think about that make people divert diverse are not generally what I think about. Because, you know, when you look below the surface, you see a lot of commonalities in the human experience. You know, from my time living, living in Panama and operating in Central and South America, some countries in the in the you know, the Caribbean when I was first in special operations, and then. Obviously, I went and did some time in in Africa, some peacekeeping operations in Nigeria, some other exercises down in the south, southern countries in Africa, and then my time in Iraq and Afghanistan. People, you know, they're they come in different colors. They they have different their path to God or the universe or the higher power that they recognize that the cultural artifacts that they use may may look different, but you know, they're generally pointing if you if you can step aside from your own preconceived notions about things, you can see that they're they're just different signposts to the same God, right to the same, to the same, power to the same, to the same things, and people want the same things, you know, for their families, you know, for for security and prosperity, and you know that that sort of thing. So it's, that's where I, kind of, you know, came to my leadership philosophy, which is pretty easy to remember. It's just lead, lead with love. And you know, if you use, and I haven't tell people, doesn't really matter what denomination you are. If you read, you know, the Gospels of the New Testament purely as a leadership guide. You know it's, it's hard to find a a better leadership example than than what, what Jesus was was doing, you know, the way he was serving others the way he was leading. It's, it's, it's pretty powerful, pretty powerful stuff. And you know, even, even at the end, right during the Last Supper, when he tells people, you know, who, who's the most important is the most important person, the person sitting at the table getting ready to eat, or the person serving, you know. And of course, you as humans, you know, is based on our, you know, the way we think about the world. We think the most important person is, you know, not only the person sitting at the table, but the person at the nicest table, or the head of the table, and not the person serving. And so that was something I tried to embrace during my time in the military, and what I try and embrace now is, you know, being the person that serves others and using your position. You know, if you if, if and when you are promoted or asked to lead that, you approach it from a position of, you know, what? What can I do from this position to help other people and and just be compassionate to their actual circumstances. And that doesn't mean, you know, when people, people hear me say that they're, you know, they think, Well, that's pretty how does that reconcile with you being a Green Beret and being around, you know, a bunch of you know, meat eating savages, you know, how do you how do you reconcile that and like, well, leading with care and compassion doesn't mean you know that I'm coddling anyone, because I'm certainly not coddling anyone you know. You know, I demand high performance for myself and from from people in those positions like that. You know, when I was a member of a special forces organization, but not everybody's supposed to be doing that. And so I think recognizing the circumstances and the people and what the organization's supposed to do or and how it can care for people, I think those are things that became really, really important to me   Michael Hingson ** 43:33 well. And I think you raised some really valid points. The reality is that September 11, for example, was not a religious war, a religious event. It was a bunch of thugs who wanted to have their way with the world. But most people who truly practice the Islamic faith are the same as the rest of us, and they and they seek God just like we do, like Jewish people do and others do, and we've got to keep that in mind, but it's, it's so hard, because we mostly don't step back and evaluate that and realize that those 19 people on those four airplanes are just a bunch of thugs, pure and simple.   Fred Dummar ** 44:15 Yeah, that, yeah, that, and, and the organizations they represent, right? You know, they're, they're, they're, and they're not the only ones, right? People from of all faiths have harnessed, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 44:30 their various back to the Crusades, yeah, you know, you know, their   Fred Dummar ** 44:33 various religions have harnessed themselves up to, you know, to sway people to to hate, or to, you know, to engage in combat or whatever. So yeah, to to lump that all in. I think our, some of our responses, and then also some of the way people think, has really led it led us to a more a more divided we're. Well, then you know that are more inclusive and and you know, thinking of ourselves as one we we think of ourselves as, you know, many and different, and sometimes things that we think would bring us together or help us make things more fair, like, you know, talking about diversity and inclusion, if we aren't really thinking about what we're trying to do and what that looks like, we can end up making the world more divided and less inclusive.   Michael Hingson ** 45:34 And unfortunately, we're seeing way too much of that, and it isn't helping to do that. And hopefully at some point we'll, we'll figure that out, or we'll realize that maybe it's a little bit better, or can be a little bit better than we think. Yeah, and I know you in 2003 did a lot to help the Kurds in northern Iraq, right?   Fred Dummar ** 45:55 Yeah, that was primarily, you know, my, my experience in Iraq was, you know, before the 2003 invasion, I was in Romania with my special forces company. And, yeah, we flew into northern Iraq and linked up with a group of Kurds and from where they were at and primarily our mission, you know, at that point, nobody really knew what Saddam might do when the main offensive of, you know, conventional army, conventional Marine Corps, British, you know, other allies, started from the south towards Baghdad. What would Saddam do? Would he, you know, send his forces in the north against the Kurds to create a destabilizing effect, you know, one both killing Kurds, but causing Kurds to flee to Syria and Iran, and, you know, probably most importantly for people that were planning to Turkey, you know, to further destabilize the region. So obviously, out of a desire to protect, help protect the Kurds and help stop or prevent something like that from happening. You know, we went in a couple weeks before the actual ground war started, we were in place with the Kurds and started organizing them to to defend themselves. And do you know, take back the land that they considered theirs, because, after, you know, Desert Storm, the you know, the 90s, the 90s war against Iraq, Saddam had pushed into Kurdish territory and established, you know, what he referred to as a, you know, his, his buffer zone. And then, you know, the US had been forcing a, you know, a no fly zone up in the Kurdish areas, but the Kurds had still never been allowed to go back to some of the cities that they considered theirs. So, you know, when we got in there with them, we were able to get, you know, move currents that have been forced out of those towns moved back into their towns and and our particular sector we we cleared down to Mosul Iraq, which, you know, people in the Bible will recognize As as the city of Nineveh. Or maybe not know that, but yeah, so we were, I was able to go drive through the, you know, the biblical, the some of the remains of the, you know, city of Nineveh as we got to Mosul. And then once we were there, that was sort of when, you know, we stole the Kurdish allies that, hey, you guys can go back to go back home, and then at that point us, we're only there a few days before us conventional forces. Now this is a couple months into the war, but us conventional forces made their way up there, and, you know, started doing stabilizing the city, and it was probably best to get the Kurdish militia out of there at that point, for things between the Kurds and the Arabs continue to deteriorate. So yeah, but it was a it was a great experience for me being with the Kurds and helping them, you know, sort of move through and retake towns that they had historically lived in. And, you know, along the way we passed and were able to clear Assyrian monastery that's on one of the mountains on the route to Mosul. So some, definitely, some history along the way, history lessons along the way. I   Michael Hingson ** 49:38 had the pleasure of going to Israel last year in August, okay? And spent a day in Jerusalem, so we got to go to the Western Wall and so on. And I really appreciated, and do appreciate, the history and just the awesomeness of of being there and touching the the temple and the wall that's been there for so long. And, you know, there is so much history over there that I really wish people would more appreciate and and on all sides, would figure out how they could become better at working with each other. One of these days, there's going to have to be peace, or it's going to really get a whole lot worse, very quickly,   Fred Dummar ** 50:21 yeah, for sure. Yeah, it was. It was interesting, though, when we were there, obviously watching the various groups of, you know, Syrians, Kurds, Arabs and others that had various claims to different parts of Mosul and different parts of the area around it. So it's fascinating, you know, to watch history try and unwind itself from some of the decisions that were made. You know, post World War Two, when lines were being drawn in the desert to create countries and and the ramifications of that? Yeah. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 51:06 you certainly have a perspective that's built on a lot of knowledge and being there, which I think is great on the other hand, well, not on the other hand. But then you left the military that that had to be a major change in terms of what you had been doing and what you were used to after almost 30 years. What's it like when you decide to make that kind of a major change and then, in your case, go back into civilian life? Yeah. So   Fred Dummar ** 51:38 my first, my first step, wasn't that far away from the military. And I started referring it. Referred to my first job as sort of an addiction clinic, because I went, I went to work as a house, yeah, I went to work as a contractor, or, you know, defense contractor. I went back to Afghanistan for about a year and a half running training programs for some of the Afghan special operations forces. So, you know, it was, it was really, you know, there was, if I, if I was a heroin addict, you know, I was in the methadone clinic, you know, trying to, trying to get off of it. And then, yeah, I realized, you know, kind of needed to go home. And my marriage, you know, dissolved, and so it's like, Hey, I probably time to, like, go home and have, you know, a different kind of life. And I moved into a civilian job with a friend, a friend at the time, who was doing investment training around the world. And he's like, Hey, we, you know, I know you're, you will travel. There's a lot of people that, when I talk to him about travel, it's involved with our business, you know, they don't, don't really want to do that. And he's like, but I know, you know, from where you're at. And he's like, hey, I'll buy, buy a ticket. Fly to Hong Kong, see what our business is about. So I went there and learned about the investment training they were doing in Hong Kong and throughout Southeast Asia. And then they had an office in Johannesburg, and, you know, one in London, Canada and the US and doing all this training. And so for about a year, little over a year, I worked in that business and and learned, you know, the various things that they were doing. You know how they were teaching people to invest in real estate and stocks and that sort of thing. Started doing it myself less, as I wish I would have known earlier in my life, but started doing that, and then when I left that company, that's a lot of what I've been doing. I've taken some smaller jobs and smaller contract projects. But by and large, that's basically what I've been doing since then, is, you know, working in real estate investing or real estate projects   Michael Hingson ** 53:50 and continuing to hone your leadership skills. Yeah,   Fred Dummar ** 53:54 yeah. Well, you know, I kept continue to work with or a couple of, you know, jobs where I was helping people start up businesses, you know, as either in CEO role or in an operations role to help help them start their businesses. So I did some of that which, which is always fun. It's great working with new talent and establishing procedures and helping people grow that way. So that was, that was really fun. And then got to be part of a couple of nonprofits, Special Forces, Charitable Trust, probably my longest stint. I did that for, you know, about seven or eight years on the board of directors, you know, running, helping to develop activities and programs to support our Special Forces veteran. So, yeah, it was, it's been, it's been fun. And then obviously having a new family and spending a lot of time in my role as a dad has been probably the most rewarding.   Michael Hingson ** 54:53 Yeah, I bet. And that is, that's always so much fun, and you get to help bring some. New people along into the world and hopefully help to make a difference that way. And on top of that, you continue to study. You're getting a PhD. You mentioned it earlier, but you're getting a PhD in organizational psychology and leadership. There we go with the leadership again.   Fred Dummar ** 55:14 Yeah, you know, it's, it's fun, because, you know, when I do get the opportunity to speak at events. I move around and speak at different events. I know you do a lot of speaking. You probably do much more than I do, but the events I do speak at, I want to make sure that sometimes being a practitioner of something doesn't always mean that you have the exact language or the academic credentials to go along with being a practitioner. And I've been a practitioner of leadership for so many years, but now studying it and applying, you know, one working towards an academic credential in this says, Hey, this, this guy knows what he's talking about. But then also having, you know, the the latest developments. And studies on leading people effectively and and how people are doing it wrong, and how you can help them. I think it's, it's been, it's been, been a great journey to be on as well, especially keeping my mind active in in all things leadership and helping organizations do it better.   Michael Hingson ** 56:21 Well, you, you have been a leader for a long time, but now you're studying it. Would you say that you're also discovering new things along the way? And you know, I guess what I'm getting at is, of course, none of us are ever so much an expert that we can't afford to learn more things. Oh   Fred Dummar ** 56:39 yeah, for sure, both, both learning new things, learning why I might have done things wrong based on, you know, studies, you know, like, okay, you know, if you if you have this type of personality, you might do this wrong, or things I was doing right, but not exactly, knowing all of, You know all of the mechanisms that were going into why I was making that decision. But you know, when you look at the psychology behind it, and you look at organizational structure structures, you look at cultural artifacts within organizations, then you can start to you start to unwind why teams do what they do, why leaders are developed, the way they're developed, and why people make certain decisions. And, yeah, it's been fascinating, you know, and then also looking back, as you said, back at things that you did, decisions that you made, and what you know, what you could have done better as you as you look that, through that, and how you can help someone else, and that's also really helped me further, you know, synthesize down this way that I look at at leading people with with love and compassion and why it's so important to be that servant type of leader, you know, not just a transformational leader that's trying to transform an organization to move that, but then, you know, how do you serve and care for the care for the people that are that are going to be part of that transformation?   Michael Hingson ** 58:10 Yeah, because if you are just looking at it from the standpoint of being a transformational leader, I'm going to change this organization that that doesn't really work. And I think that the most important aspect is being a servant leader, is being a person who serves, because that also opens you up to learning along the way and learning how to serve better.   Fred Dummar ** 58:34 Yeah. And you know, as I learned in the many organizations that I was part of over, you know, my time in Special Forces is, you know, just because, you know, alluding, you know, we were discussing roles, and I was saying, you know, this officer's role to often, to plan and to lead, but that other people are the experts. And that's something you know. The sooner you embrace that fact, the faster, the faster you become effective, and the more effective you are when you realize that understanding the people and and caring and serving them, and then getting their their best performance and understanding what they know and what they can do, and where you need to put them to maximize their potential, then those things start to become the most important thing that you're doing, how you know, how people play against each other, who works well with who? How that works, how that betters the organization. Those are all, all all things that are fascinating, you know, to me, and things that kept me up at night, trying to figure out, you know, how to how to be more efficient, how to take better care of people, while, you know, getting, not only getting the best out of them, but them, realizing they were giving their best and being happy and proud of what they. Were doing   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:01 and getting the best out of you as well.   Fred Dummar ** 1:00:03 Yeah, yeah, that, yeah, bringing the best out of them is bringing the best out of me, right?   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:08 So you've gotten work also in the nonprofit sector. You're continuing to do that, yeah,   Fred Dummar ** 1:00:13 yeah, yeah. Now, after leaving this Special Forces Charitable Trust, I realized, you know, after I'd moved out to Idaho, where I live now that I wasn't as connected to the regiment as I'd been my first retired and I was still kind of in the North Carolina area or but after moving out here, you know, just felt like that. I probably there were other guys more recently retired, knew more of the things that needed to be done. So stepping down from that organization. And then, obviously, one of the other things that happened was, you know, the the rapid withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan and the fall of Afghanistan, and I found myself with many other Afghan veterans, sort of, you know, both wondering, you know what it all meant, why? You know, and then, but then also what we can do. You know, not dwelling too long. I know, you know, poor me. You know what? You know. Why did I go? What did it mean? But more so, hey, you know, we had a bunch of people that we made promises to, a bunch of people that follow alongside America, some certainly, you know, in the interest of Afghanistan. But there were also many, many of the especially on the Afghan Special Operations sides, that were not always necessarily doing things at the behest of the Afghan government, but operating with US forces on things that the US wanted to do, but then, you know, we're sort of left hanging when during the withdrawal. So, you know, working alongside other veterans to try and get as many of those people out during the withdrawal and then. But so now I work with an operation or a organization called Operation recovery that is still following these families, following these cases, people that are either still in Afghanistan, some in hiding, some in other countries, illegally, but trying to help them resolve visa issues and either get to Canada or the United States or someplace in Europe, just someplace safe for them and their family, away from the from the Taliban. And so that's been it, and it's, it's hard work, you know, because the in work like that, we're trying to make government bureaucracies realize that they should be issuing visas or allowing people to move, it's not always a rapid process. So feels like, and, you know, and I'm not pointing fingers as if anyone should still, you know, be completely focused on Afghanistan. But you know, other things happen. You know, Ukraine, the war in Ukraine draws attention away. You know, the war in Israel. You know, hurricanes, storms, everything that's going on. You know, Assassination comes. You know, assassination attempts, you know, all of that stuff diverts people's you know, draws people attend. You know their attention to that. And I'm not sure many people, you know, they support the troops. And you know, you often hear them, you know, you know, thanking troops for their service. And the only response I can have to that, you know, for for for years, I struggled with how to respond to that. When someone would say, Thank you for your service, you know, just Okay, thank you. You know, I don't know, thanks for your support, but you know, I heard a good response, and I've been using it since, and it's like, America's worth it. So,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:54 yeah, on top of everything else that you do, you've also been dabbling or going into real estate a little bit, yeah,   Fred Dummar ** 1:04:01 yeah. So that's, that's a lot of what I've been doing, you know, for because, you know, providing for your family, right? So, yeah, I started doing some investment real estate, and out here, got a partner, we did, worked on a couple of mobile home parts, larger projects. And I still, once a week, I still teach a clas

Nugget of Hope: "Be more open to trust." Michael Hingson, blind since birth, was born in Chicago to sighted parents who believed in raising their son with a can-do attitude. Treated like all other children in his family, Michael rode a bike, did advanced math in his head, and learned to read and write – Braille, that is! Michael Hingson's life changed dramatically on September 11, 2001, when he and his guide dog, Roselle, escaped from the 78th floor of Tower One in the World Trade Center moments before it collapsed. Michael wrote a book about his experience, Thunder Dog, which became a New York Times Best Seller, and soon after, Michael and Roselle were thrust into the international limelight, where Michael began to share his unique survival story and 9-11 lessons of trust, courage, heroism, and teamwork. Michael is now the author of three books and hosts The Unstoppable Mindset Podcast. The Unstoppable Mindset Podcast https://michaelhingson.com/ Michaels Books Thunder Dog Running with Roselle His newest book, released in August of 2024, Live Like A Guide Dog is available on Amazon and pretty much wherever you can buy a book! The Roselle's Dream Foundation Roselle was Michael Hingson's guide dog and trusted companion for many years. Her life and her heroic actions on 9/11 inspired the formation of The Roselle's Dream Foundation. The mission of the foundation is to assist the blind with obtaining new technologies, empowering them to learn, to work, and to maximize their success in today's challenging world. Learn more about your host, Kim Lengling: www.kimlenglingauthor.com Kim's Books: Available on Amazon https://amzn.to/3V84UNU

Our guest this time, Bill Eddy, is a family mediator, lawyer and therapist, and the Chief Innovation Officer of the High Conflict Institute based in San Diego, California. He received his bachelor's degree in Psychology, but didn't stop there. As you will read, he went on to learn and work in the therapy space for a number of years, but his longing to deal with some other issues caused him to study law and after receiving his Juris Prudence degree he worked in the law as a mediator. While doing this he also felt it relevant and appropriate to begin working on ways to address conflicts between persons. He realized that conflict often meant that someone was bullying another person.   Bill and I spend much time discussing bullying, where it comes from, how and why people become bullies and how to deal with bullying kinds of behavior. Our discussions are fascinating and I quite believe important for everyone to hear.   Just last month Bill's latest book, “Our New World of Adult Bullies” was released. Bill discusses his book and why we are encountering more bullying behavior today than we have experienced in the past.   Enough from me. I hope you find my conversation with Bill Eddy relevant, useful and, of course, entertaining.       About the Guest:   Bill Eddy is a family mediator, lawyer and therapist, and the Chief Innovation Office of the High Conflict Institute based in San Diego, California. He has provided training to mediators, lawyers, judges, mental health professionals and others on the subject of managing high-conflict personalities in over 35 states, 9 provinces in Canada, and twelve other countries.   As a lawyer, Mr. Eddy was a Certified Family Law Specialist (CFLS) in California for 15 years, where he represented clients in family court. Prior to that, he provided psychotherapy for 12 years to children and families in psychiatric hospitals and outpatient clinics as a Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW). Throughout his forty-year career he has provided divorce mediation services, including the past 15 years as the Senior Family Mediator at the National Conflict Resolution Center in San Diego, California. Mr. Eddy is the author of several books, including: · Mediating High Conflict Disputes · High Conflict People in Legal Disputes · Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder · Calming Upset People with EAR · BIFF: Quick Responses to High Conflict People · BIFF for CoParent Communication · BIFF at Work · BIFF for Lawyers and Law Offices · So, What's Your Proposal: Shifting High Conflict People From Blaming to Problem-Solving in 30 Seconds · Don't Alienate the Kids! Raising Resilient Children While Avoiding High-Conflict Divorce   He has a continuing education course for Mental Health professionals titled “It's All Your Fault!”: Working with High Conflict Personalities. He has a Psychology Today blog about high conflict personality disorders with over 6 million views. He has a podcast titled “It's All Your Fault” which he does weekly with Megan Hunter.   He taught Negotiation and Mediation at the University of San Diego School of Law for six years. He has served on the part-time faculty of the National Judicial College in the United States and has provided several trainings for judges in Canada for the National Judicial Institute. He is currently on the part-time faculty at the Straus Institute of Dispute Resolution at Pepperdine University School of Law teaching Psychology of Conflict Communication each year. He teaches once a year on Advanced Communication Skills as Conjoint Associate Professor at Newcastle Law School in Newcastle, Australia.   He is the developer of the New Ways for Families® method for potentially high-conflict families, which is being implemented in several family court systems in the United States and Canada, as well as an online co-parenting course (Parenting Without Conflict by New Ways for Families). He is also the developer of the New Ways for Mediation® method, which emphasizes more structure by the mediator and simple negotiation skills for the parties. He obtained his JD law degree in 1992 from the University of San Diego, a Master of Social Work degree in 1981 from San Diego State University, and a Bachelors degree in Psychology in 1970 from Case Western Reserve University. His website is: www.HighConflictInstitute.com.   Ways to connect with Bill:   www.HighConflictInstitute.com.   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 And welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Today, we get to deal mostly with the unexpected, because inclusion is what it is, diversity is what it is, and those we put in the order that we do, because in the typical sense of the word diversity, doesn't intend to include disabilities or any discussion of disabilities. And people say, well, disability means lack of ability when they're talking about any of that anyway. And the reality is that's not true. Disability should not mean a lack of ability. And people say, Well, it does, because it starts with dis Well, what about disciple? Yeah, what about disciple? What about discern? What about, you know, so many other kinds of things. The reality is that everyone has a disability, and we could talk about that, but that's not what we're here to do today. We're here to talk to Bill Eddy, who has written a number of books. He's got a degree in psychology, he's got degrees in law, and I'm not going to go and give all that away, because I'd rather he do it. But we also get to be excited by the fact that he has a new book, and we'll talk about it a bunch. It's called our new world of adult bullies. Um, that's what I say about my cat all the time, because she does run the house and, you know, and we can mention that name, Bill, it's stitch. Now, she's a great kitty, but she she does have her mindset on what she wants, so she's trained us well. Well, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Bill, how are you?   Bill Eddy ** 02:57 I'm good, and thanks so much for having me on. Michael, glad to be with you.   Michael Hingson ** 03:01 Well, we're glad you're here and looking forward to it. Why don't we start, as I love to do so often, why don't you tell us about kind of the early build, growing up, or any of those kinds of things to lead us into where we go?   Bill Eddy ** 03:14 Well, I was one of four kids, and as I mentioned in the introduction of the book in third grade, I had my own personal bully. He decided I was the guy he wanted to pick on and fight. And I think he figured that out because my parents didn't allow us kids to fight, so we weren't allowed to fight back. And you know, my parents said, you know, if takes two to make a fight, so if a fight starting, just walk away. And I said, what if the other person won't let you walk away? So we'll find a way to walk away. So for most of third grade, he harassed me and would catch me after school and hit me and kick me in the the foot of the stairway. We had a basement classroom, and there was a stairway out from there so no one could see and it wasn't easy to get away from but mostly I figured out how to avoid him, and also how to how to help the older kids with their homework, so they'd be more of a protector for me. So that's early childhood, but I think it influenced my my choice as an adult, you know, a psychology major, and then I got a master's in social work to do child and family counseling. Did that 12 years, but I liked resolving conflicts, and decided to go to law school and all of that primarily so I could practice mediation to help people solve conflicts. But many of the conflicts I've dealt with had bullies in them, so I started studying these personalities, and that kind of brings me up to today.   Michael Hingson ** 04:58 Wow. Well, you have certainly written, also a number of books. I was reading your list of books, and you have one on divorce, and clearly there are bullies there, and a lot of places, I'm sure, and you have just a number of books, and I can see where the whole concept of having bullies can be in all of those and at the same time, most of us haven't learned how to deal with bullies. We haven't learned how to address the issue of avoidance, which is what you talked about, but it makes perfect sense. I don't particularly like bullies. I've not been bullied a lot, I think I was a couple of times in grammar school, and a kid hit me a couple of times, and I can only assume that it was sort of a bullish oriented thing, but I don't really recall that anything ever happened other than that. It only happened like once or twice, and then I was left alone. But still, there is so much of it, and there's been bullying to a degree for well, as long as we've had people, I guess, right, and this whole idea of avoiding it is obviously what we need to do, although I guess the other part about it that comes to mind is, how do you get the bully to change their mindset and recognize that that's not the best productive use of their time? Well,   Bill Eddy ** 06:30 what's interesting is childhood bullies mostly do figure that out. And I'd say probably 90% of childhood bullies don't become adult bullies that, you know, somebody punches them in the nose, or nobody wants to be their friend, or they get in trouble at home or at school, and they learn that that doesn't work, but maybe 10% get away with it. Maybe they're encouraged, you know, maybe their parents laugh when they bully other people, and that's that's the ones that become the adult bullies. But what I find, and the Institute I work with, high conflict Institute, we do a lot of training, a lot of coaching, and we we teach people like for workplace coaching to to try to give bullies some conflict resolution skills so that they won't be bullies, so they can solve problems others other ways, and we find maybe half of the bullies can improve their behavior enough to keep the job, and About half quit or are told they need to leave. So I'd say about half of bullies can learn to stop that behavior or rein it in, and about half can't. That's just a real rough estimate from my personal observation.   Michael Hingson ** 07:55 The ones that can't or don't, is it that they get so much satisfaction from bullying and they get away with it that just they just don't see the value of it. Or is it different than that? Well, I   Bill Eddy ** 08:08 think it's not as logical as that. I think it has a lot to do with personality patterns, and the ones that are adult bullies usually have personality patterns that border on personality disorders, especially the Cluster B personality disorders, which are narcissistic, anti social, borderline and histrionic. So it's part of who they are. They're not really even thinking about it. This is just how they operate in the world. And so if they're not stopped, they just automatically do this. If they are stopped or told they're going to lose their job, maybe half of them can rein in their behavior, and maybe the other calf can't, even if they want to, they just can't stop themselves. But mostly it's more or less automatic. Is what I see. They really lack self reflection, and therefore, generally don't change. And one of the definitions of personality disorders is an enduring pattern of behavior, so it's not, not likely to change because they had an insight. Because if they were going to have an insight like that, they would have had it before they became adults.   Michael Hingson ** 09:29 Yeah, and it, and it just doesn't seem to happen. And it is, it is so unfortunate that we even have to talk about this kind of a subject. But it's also very important that we understand it, because I think those of us who aren't bullied or who aren't bullies, still need to understand it's like anything else, still need to understand it in order to learn how to deal with it. I would think,   Bill Eddy ** 09:55 yeah, and I think part of why this. Is coming up now is traditionally in our society. And I know my whole lifetime, adult bullies were pretty much kept on the fringe, and so families said, Hey, you can't do that in our family and communities and schools and and workplaces said that. But what's interesting now is, I'd say, the last 20 years or so, is bullies are getting center stage because all of our media competition, especially the screens we have, are trying to show us the worst behavior so that we'll pay attention to them. So social media, cable 24/7, news, movies, TV shows are all showing bad behavior to grab our attention, but the result of this is that they're teaching bad behavior and tolerating it and giving permission to bullies to act out when they might have kind of restrained themselves in the past.   Michael Hingson ** 11:07 How do we get media, television and so on to change that? I've I've kind of felt that way for a while. I actually took a course in college, um, it was called Why police, which is a fascinating course. It was taught by not a deputy sheriff, but he was a volunteer deputy sheriff in Orange County. He was an engineering professor at UC Irvine, where I went to school, and he and he taught this course, and I made the observation once in class, that a lot of the negativity that we see really comes from what we experience on television. And he said, no, that's just not true, but it certainly is true. Well,   Bill Eddy ** 11:49 especially nowadays, especially nowadays, yeah, yeah. Maybe that wasn't true 30 years ago, but it seems very much true now. Yeah, and you mentioned a study in the beginning of, I think it's chapter two of the book that about it was a workplace study, and if I can quote it, I think this is helpful for this discussion. He says they said there's a 2021, workplace bullying Institute survey. So in the second year of the pandemic, he says 58% of the respondents on the survey agreed that quotes the display of bullying, disrespect and intolerance of the opinions of others by politicians and public figures affected workplaces because they encouraged aggression and granted permission to ignore the rules. And I think it's very direct that the media does impact family life, workplace community and online, for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 13:00 Yeah, yeah, I, I would agree. And, you know, today, and we're not going to talk about specific individuals, but at the same time today, I dare say, there are a number of people who step back and contemplate this whole concept of bullies and so on, who would agree that in the political world there? Well, there are a number, but there's one especially, who tends to be more of a bully. But I would say that there are a number of people in the political world who just want to force their own way, and tend to bully a lot.   Bill Eddy ** 13:34 And I totally agree with you. Even have a chapter on what I call the high emotion media, because it's the emotions, the disrespect, the insulting statements, the personal attacks, you know, I don't like the way you look, or I think you're crazy or you're an idiot, and that kind of message, and If you have that going back and forth between politicians. It's very exciting to watch, but it's not the way you want to live, like you wouldn't want to be in a relationship like that, no, and so. So the media image promotes that because it gets attention. It really grabs attention. And I would I would suggest that it's been over the last 30 years approximately, that politics has become more about entertainment than about government. And the values of entertainment are extreme behavior and disrespect and fighting and chaos and crisis and fear, whereas government is when it's running well is boring, is focused on details, focused on people getting along, having their share of responsibility, all of that kind of stuff. So we've turned the. Values of politics upside down, and we think now that's the way. That's what politics is. And it's unfortunate, because government will unravel if we use the entertainment values to govern the country. Of course,   Michael Hingson ** 15:16 there are a number of people, especially in the media, who would say, but all of this sells, newspapers, all of this sells, and that's why we do it. I I submit that that's not necessarily so. But how do you show people that? Yeah, this sells, but don't you think there are other kinds of things that would sell even more   Bill Eddy ** 15:42 well, it's tricky, but one of my goals in writing the book is to teach people self help skills, to monitor their absorption of high emotion media and to be able to set limits on it. Like I don't like to get more than half an hour of news from a screen. I like reading the papers and reading different points of view. And if you watch more than half an hour and you get this coming in your ears and your eyes and all of that, it just takes over your thinking. And actually, the more repetition there is, the more things feel true that are clearly not true, but the way our brains work, repetition tells us what's really true and what's really important. And TV, even radio, can bombard us with false information that starts to feel true because we get so much of it.   Michael Hingson ** 16:40 Yeah, it's it is someone, yes, I hear you, and it's so unfortunate that more people don't tend to be analytical, reflecting introspective. You know, we talked earlier about the book that I'm writing, live like a guide dog, that will be published in August of this year. And one of the things that I point out in the book, for people who want to start to learn to control fear, rather than letting it, as I say, blind you or overwhelm you, or whatever word you want to use, is you need to become more introspective and look at well, why am I afraid of this? Why am I reacting to this? How do I deal with it? And it doesn't take a lot of time every day to do it, but if you do it for a little bit of time every day, the Mind Muscle develops, and you get beyond a lot of that.   Bill Eddy ** 17:34 I think that's a very important point, as we can train ourselves to what to pay attention to, what to ignore, and we can train our self talk like you're saying. That's excellent,   Michael Hingson ** 17:46 yeah, and I think it's it's all about analyzing ourselves. And something that I learned, and I've talked about it a few times on this podcast, one of the things that I did when I was a program director at the campus radio station at UC Irvine, Zot, K, U, C, I was that I would ask people to listen to their shows. So when I was the program director, we would actually record people talking, and I insisted that they take the cassettes home. Remember cassettes? Boy, is that a long time ago,   Bill Eddy ** 18:19 two, wow, back aways, yeah, even   Michael Hingson ** 18:23 pre eight track, but take the cassettes home. Listen to them, because it's something that I did and and as I grew older and became a public speaker, after September 11, I recorded my talk so that I could listen to them. And I said, I do that because I'm my own worst critic. I'm going to be more hard on me than anyone will. And it took until even after the pandemic started, that I finally learned wrong way to look at it. I'm not my own worst critic. I'm my own best teacher. By analyzing and thinking about it and recognizing that I'm my own best teacher, because no one can really teach me anything. They can present me with the information, but I have to teach myself to learn it. So I realize that, and I'm my own best teacher, and I think that works out really well, and it's a lot more positive anyway,   Bill Eddy ** 19:18 right? Great. And that's that's that promotes lifelong learning. I just reading an article about how a lot of people, you know, after a certain amount of time, they feel okay. I got my career, I've done my skills, and now I'm going to kick back. But Lifetime Learning is where it's at. I think it's exciting. It   Michael Hingson ** 19:39 is. I consider life an adventure. I consider the internet a treasure trove of information. And yeah, there's a dark web and and all that. And now, of course, we have AI, and some people want to be negative about that, but if we use it right, and if we develop our own inner structure and. And recognize the value and how to use it. It is, and all of those are characteristics and features that can do nothing but help us.   Bill Eddy ** 20:10 Yeah, they're tools. I like the idea of tools, not rules, so we'll see what we can do with them. But as long as humans are in charge, I think we may be okay. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 20:25 I hope so. Um, Mark Twain once said, I wonder if God had been a man because he was disappointed in the monkeys. But who knows.   Bill Eddy ** 20:35 He wasn't. He was a brilliant guy. He was   Michael Hingson ** 20:39 one of my two favorite people, Mark Twain and Will Rogers, boy. They were very clever. And analysts, you had it figured out. They did, if only we would listen. Well, why did you write the book?   Bill Eddy ** 20:53 Well, I wrote it. I started writing it. The end of 2020, when the pandemic was going strong, and a lot of people, and we were all kind of holed up at home. I had more time to think, because I couldn't travel and teach and do the work I do. But I also, you know, on TV, there was, you know, the the arguments in bullying, frankly, about masks, about vaccines, about the George Floyd murder, about protests against the George Floyd murder, that that it seemed like the country was kind of in a 5050, state of bullying each other, but it wasn't. The number of bullies is actually quite small, but they're getting a high profile, and I wanted to explain that bullies at all levels have the same patterns of behavior, and few people have eye into the workings of families like I've had as a family therapist, as a family mediator and as a Family Lawyer, and few people have had, you know, awareness of workplace bullying like I have training human resources and employee assistance personnel. Likewise, neighbor disputes, because I'd be consulting on a lot of neighbor disputes, and certainly online disputes. So bullying seemed to be happening in all these different places, but most people didn't realize the extent of it, because people kept it private. And I was like, Well, I can see it's the same patterns. And then, you know, Putin invades Ukraine, and I'm going, this guy is like a domestic violence perpetrator. He has the same lack of self awareness and the same blaming personality and so I included on up to politicians and international relations to show I can tell you what the patterns are to look for. So look out for bullies. Don't let them into your life. Spot them and stop them. And I wanted, I wanted the book to really open people's eyes, so to speak to what's going on in the world today that they really haven't been aware of by and large,   Michael Hingson ** 23:13 right? What makes us, especially as adults, susceptible to being bullied?   Bill Eddy ** 23:23 Well, we're not prepared for them, and that's a lot of what I hope to do with the book is help people be prepared so they don't overreact or under react. But I'd say most people are just kind of shocked. Suddenly there's a bully in the office and they're yelling at somebody, and it's like, oh my goodness, I'm, I'm I'm freezing because, you know, I don't know what to do. They're yelling at somebody else, thank goodness, but I'm scared too, or they're yelling at me, and I freeze because I don't know what to do. So I think what happens is people are just really unprepared. On the other hand, most people are nice people. Let's say 80% of people are nice people. They don't like to interrupt people, even when they're masking saying nasty comments. They don't like to just walk away from a conversation, even if the conversation is really hurtful and abusive, and so people aren't used to being assertive against a bully, because they're used to everybody being reasonable, and so that's why they catch us by surprise and And we're not ready for them.   Michael Hingson ** 24:39 I subscribe to a service out here called next door, which is also in San Diego, and it's a way to really keep up with what's going on in the community. And I've seen a number of posts where something happened and people suddenly say. I'm surprised that never happens in this area, and that just isn't true anymore,   Bill Eddy ** 25:08 right, anywhere, anywhere,   Michael Hingson ** 25:13 and it's so unfortunate that we don't learn to look out for all of this. I think, yeah, go   Bill Eddy ** 25:23 ahead. I just gonna say, I think that's that's what has to change, is we do have to be aware, not paranoid about it around every corner, but aware that this is going to come your way. I like to say, I think everyone's going to have a bully in their life sooner rather than later, but if you're prepared and you manage it well, they're not going to get very deep into your life and will probably move on. So I do think that's coming. Sorry. I interrupted. No,   Michael Hingson ** 25:54 no, no, no, no, you did No, you were right. Tell me what are some of the warning signs that you're dealing with a bully?   Bill Eddy ** 26:00 Well, first of all that the person goes beyond the normal social boundaries and keep going like they don't stop themselves. So an unrestrained pattern of behavior. When you start thinking to yourself, Well, I'm sure he'll come to his senses soon, or I'm sure she'll realize how destructive she's being. The problem is the answer that is not necessarily, probably not. Another way that's really quite simple is when a bully starts, when a person starts criticizing your intelligence, your morals, your sanity, your appearance, your existence. When they make it personal is a real sign they've crossed the line, and now you're dealing with a bully. Because bullies make it personal. They want a one down relationship. They want you to they want to dominate you. And so that's one of the easiest ways to recognize, is the way they talk to you, talking down to you like that. And they may say that you're you're being obnoxious and you have a problem. And they might even say, Stop bullying me. Stop bullying me, Bill, and I'm not bullying them. I'm saying they need to stop what they're doing with me, and they'll say, You're the bully. So playing the victim is another way projecting what they're doing onto the other person, like, stop bullying me. Bill, I'm not bullying you. I'm setting limits on your bullying of me. Well, I would never bully you, Bill. And then they keep projecting what they're doing onto me, and they may point to other people around us and say, See how Bill's treating me, you know, and they play the victim. And next thing you know, the whole people around think that I'm being a bad guy, and they get away with it that way because they're really good at projection and good at playing the victim. So these are some of the patterns. How do   Michael Hingson ** 28:10 you deal with that, though? Well, you   Bill Eddy ** 28:14 first of all need to be taken assertive approach, so don't become aggressive and start yelling at them. No, you really are bullying me. You're a real jerk. Instead, you say that's not true. And if other people are around, you say, just, everybody know it's not true. I'm trying to set limits on his behavior towards me, because he's really harassing me. And so explain what's happening. Be assertive, so you stick up for yourself, but don't be aggressive, because now it looks like you are being the bully. And some some people asked me on one of the interviews I had, the guy said, at what point do you punch the bully in the nose? And I said, Well, you're going to have that thought, but don't act on it, because when you do that, now you look like the bully. So you don't want to be aggressive, but you don't want to be passive and let them just pick on you and run you into the ground. You want to say, Hey, that's not okay, or I'm going to end this conversation. So you assert yourself to protect yourself without trying to harm the other person, and that's what assertive is. So I really recommend the assertive approach.   Michael Hingson ** 29:33 And again, it gets back to you have to learn to understand and assess yourself and develop the tools that will allow you to do that   Bill Eddy ** 29:46 exactly and and strengthen yourself where you're not experienced or not skilled, and learn the skills to protect yourself. I think it's you know, all of us. Most of us grew up maintaining ourselves, not being too extreme, and yet sticking up for ourselves and being self managed. But bullies aren't self managed, so we're going to have to manage them for them. And so that's the new age we're in. The new world we're in is we need skills to manage bullies, and we can develop those, and that's part of what I talk about at the end of the book. The last chapter is a lot of skills that people can learn to manage bullies and protect themselves.   Michael Hingson ** 30:38 Well, how did you you've talked about a little bit, but I'd love to to learn a little bit more about how did you really end up deciding that this was a calling that you had to deal with and that you've devoted so much time to? I think it really   Bill Eddy ** 30:54 got started as a as a workplace endeavor when I went from being a therapist to being a lawyer, so I wanted to do mediation and conflict resolution, and went to law school, and when I started practicing law after 12 years as a therapist, including in psychiatric hospitals, I started seeing the same behavior in family court. You know there be mom and dad are fighting over custody of their child, and the judge is listening to their arguments and looking frustrated. And I'm going, Well, the problem here is one of the parents probably has a personality disorder, and so they're not really being that sensitive to the child and and the other parent seems to be pretty reasonable, but you don't know, sometimes people that look reasonable might be like anti social under the surface. And so I started noticing and paying attention to these behavior patterns and how they showed up as high conflict families, and that's the term that the courts were using high conflict families. So I started saying, You shouldn't talk about high conflict families. Should talk about high conflict personalities, because not everybody in the family necessarily has that. Maybe it's Mom, maybe it's dad, like, say, a domestic violence case, dad might have a borderline personality or an anti social personality, and that's driving his violent behavior, and yet he's conning the court by saying, look at her, she's a mess, and everything I'm doing is just fine. I'm the reasonable person here, but they're not behind the scenes, and so there'd be these patterns of behavior, and I said, courts got to figure this stuff out, otherwise you're punishing the victim of a domestic violence perpetrator unfairly and unhelpfully, and you're teaching the child that this behavior is acceptable. So I had all this information that I knew from having been, you know, a therapist, a licensed clinical social worker, and I found myself applying it to family court cases, and wanting to educate other lawyers, judges, mediators and therapists about these dynamics in family court. And that's when I started writing about high conflict personalities and eventually talking more about bullies who are the most high conflict personalities. So that's kind of how that evolved. That was 1993 is when I became I started practicing family law after 12 years as a therapist. And so that's when this stuff really opened my eyes, to wait a minute, people don't realize what they're dealing with, and they're not going to solve this with a child support order. They're going to have to, you know, get somebody some treatment or understand that there's these personalities driving behavior, rather than legal issues   Michael Hingson ** 34:20 you have developed, I think, or have begun creating, something called the new ways for families. Method, Yes, uh huh. Tell me about that. I read that in your bio, and that sounded pretty fascinating, yeah,   Bill Eddy ** 34:35 and I'm pretty proud of it. So we started high conflict Institute in 2008 myself and a colleague, Megan Hunter, and we wanted to educate family law professionals, but we also wanted to help parents in high conflict, divorces and custody disputes. And so I developed a counseling method. A specific to divorcing parents with disputes over their children. And I, I was speaking at a conference of judges, and they said, What kind of counseling order should we make for these high conflict families to get them out of court and settling down, and they said, Well, you can't do the traditional counseling where you say talk about your feelings, because people with high conflict personalities will talk about their feelings forever without changing anything. So you want them to learn new ways of doing things. And so we decided we're going to call the method new ways for families and six counseling sessions focused on learning four big skills, flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behavior and checking yourself rather than being busy checking everybody else. And so we we got that the judges to start ordering that, and we said, order both parents to learn these skills so you don't picking a bad guy. It's going to help both parents, whoever's you know, maybe it's a domestic violence case, they get domestic violence treatment, but also learn these skills so they can work together. Cases where a child resists being with the other parent because of one parent bad mathing the other parent interfering, what they call alienation, or parental alienation. So all of these could be benefited by this counseling approach. Short term, six individual sessions, three parent child sessions for each parent, and we started seeing cases stay out of court that used to keep coming back. We saw people calming down. The judges really liked that. We created an online class to teach those same skills in 12 sessions. Then we developed coaching, three coaching sessions with the online class to make to give a chance to practice, but keep the cost down, because just three sessions, and so that's that's been evolving since 2009 so for the last 15 years, and we estimate about eight or 9000 parents have gone through learning these skills, some better than others, but enough that the judges think they're worthwhile, and they keep ordering this. But this is it depends on where there's trained counselors or coaches to get the more intensive approach. But the online class is available anywhere worldwide, so judges sometimes just order that from, you know, maybe they're in Utah or something. And there's no counselors that we've trained there yet. They can always order the online class. And I think they actually are, because I spoke in Utah a month ago about this. So that's that's the method, and I feel pretty proud of it. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 38:18 it it's understandable, and I can appreciate why you're why you're excited about doing it, and that it's that it's clearly working. What are some really good examples of how successful the whole method and the whole process has been? You have some good stories about it.   Bill Eddy ** 38:40 Yeah. So one of my favorite examples, it's a case where a 15 year old girl refused to see her father after the divorce, and it seemed like a case where mom had been saying enough negative things, the girl absorbed that and then said, I don't want to see dad, and mom tolerated that, but of course, dad didn't. So took mom to court and told the judge, Mom's doing something to make the girl not come. So rather than deciding that mom's all bad, the judge said, well, then I want to order new ways for families, and that's six individual counseling sessions and three parent child sessions, so judge orders that and each of the parents goes through six counseling sessions with a workbook, so it focuses them on learning particular skills, to manage their emotions, To keep their thinking flexible, to moderate their behavior, like we teach them how to write emails so that they're reasonable instead of escalating conflict. And so they both went through that individual then it's time for the parent child sessions, and since Mom was the favorite parent. Parent, we had the parent child counselor meet with mom and the child first, and Mom taught the girl about flexible thinking, managed emotions, moderate behavior and checking yourself, and then prepared the girl with the counselor for the next week when she's going to meet with dad and so who she hasn't seen for a year and says she hates him, but there's no real, clear reason for that, and that's why it might be alienation. It might be the bad mouthing that got absorbed by the girl. So the next week, mom brings the girl to the counseling center, and girl agrees to go in and meets dad and the counselor and sits down, and the girl tells dad that he's a horrible person. He's ruined her life. He's done everything wrong and just this whole list of awfuls. And because he's been through the counseling method, he listens quietly and attentively, and then he says, Thank you. And she says, What do you mean? Thank you. I just said, you're a terrible person. And he says, I said, Thank you. Because I'm glad that we're talking. I think this is good. This is good for us to be talking. Is there more that you want to tell me, and I guess there was some more. And then basically they reconciled and agreed that they would have dinner together once a week. Now it wasn't a 5050, parenting plan like he would have preferred, but, and I don't know where it went from there, but he did have regular dinners with her, and they communicated. So it reconnected their relationship, and so it gave a structure for that to happen in, and that's what new ways for families does not every case where someone a child resists a parent has worked with new ways for families that, you know, one parent has found a way to sabotage it and block it, but by and large, we've had, had some, some good success with moderate cases like that.   Michael Hingson ** 42:16 Yeah, well, one of the questions that comes to mind, as you've talked about, excuse me, high conflict personalities. Is that something that can actually be fixed? Can people get over having to always be in conflict like that? It   Bill Eddy ** 42:36 really depends, I think, a lot, on which of the personalities. So I think I mentioned Cluster B personality disorders, borderline, narcissistic, anti social, histrionic. So borderline personality disorder, people are hearing more about that, where they have wide mood swings, sudden, intense anger, fear of abandonment, all of that. And this used to be thought of as primarily women, but it's now seen as probably about half and half. And men who are physically abusive often have this personality style, and they strike out because they're afraid they're losing their partner, which of course, makes their partner want to leave a little bit more, but that's one of the more treatable personalities. And there's a method called DBT dialectical behavior therapy, which is having some good success at treating people with borderline personality disorder. So there's that at the other extreme is anti social personality disorder, which is the hardest one to treat, and I don't know of a consistently successful method that treats and that's like maybe 40% of prisoners have that personality, they get out of prison and they commit another crime, been back back in prison, they have a pattern of behavior, which is what a personality disorder is, is it's a stuck pattern of behavior, just enduring and repeating and all of that. So I would say people with that personality is extremely unlikely they're going to change. But people with borderline, there is hope for and many people outgrow the diagnosis after going through DBT. So that's the most hopeful and the least hopeful range. Narcissists and histrionics are somewhere in the middle of that? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 44:44 well, something that comes to mind, I kind of think I know the answer, but it's still a question worth asking. Colleges and universities are made up of lots of people who are studying supposed to be pretty intelligent and so on, but we have bullies there. Why? You.   Bill Eddy ** 44:59 I think because we have them everywhere. So if, say 10% five to 10% of people are bullies, I think you're going to see them in colleges. Has nothing to do with intelligence. They may be brilliant bullies and very not smart bullies. So the whole range of severity exists. I think that college and other organizations like so, higher education, health care, churches, synagogues, mosques, that these are welcoming communities. These are helping communities. And so bullies get away with more in these kinds of communities because everybody's trying to be nice and bending over backwards to give them another chance. And so not to say they shouldn't get another chance, but they shouldn't get another chance and another chance and another chance and another chance. That's the thing I preach against. You give somebody a chance. If it the same problem comes up twice, what is it? Fool me once. Shame on you. Fool me twice. Shame on me. I got to do something if it's happening again, because that means it's a pattern, and especially if there was consequences for the first time and they still did it again, that's a sign this may be behavior that's going to be resistant to change   Michael Hingson ** 46:37 well, and that makes perfect sense. It's kind of where I thought you'd probably go with it, but it does make perfect sense. And there, as you've said, there are bullies everywhere. And the reality is we're, we're going to find that there are just some people who are going to be bullies.   Bill Eddy ** 46:58 I think that's the answer that it's kind of sad to come to that conclusion, but it's also enlightening, because then, you know, you can't just change them. This pattern is so stuck, so persistent, they have to have a different approach. You can't talk them out of it. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 47:20 and there's something to be said for love, but at the same time, you need to learn to control you and your situations. And   Bill Eddy ** 47:31 yeah, it's kind of the tough love concept.   Michael Hingson ** 47:37 What do you do if your supervisor is a bully? We talked a little bit about bullies in the office and so on. But what if it's your boss who is the bully?   Bill Eddy ** 47:46 I think that you know, to some extent, if you can be assertive and say, you know, boss, you just gave me three assignments that are all due on Friday, and realistically, I can only get one of them done. Which one is the priority that you kind of assert yourself without trying to dominate your boss or alienate your boss. So you say something like, you know, can you give me some guidance here with these three projects, I can only get one done. Maybe someone else could help with another. So speaking up, presenting options, and say, you know that's one possibility. Another is you could give me overtime, and I'm willing to stay late if there's overtime. What? Whatever you may be able to speak up to some extent. But what we get a lot of our consultations are people that it's way beyond that the boss is just really out to get them, maybe trying to push them out of the team. And so we talk about who else you can go to, and it may be HR, it may be another department head. One of the things I say is make sure you start talking to somebody, maybe a friend, family member, so you're not just stewing in the fact that you're being bullied because people's self esteem just really goes down if they don't feel safe to talk to anybody. You talk to somebody and they say, oh, yeah, that happened to me once. That's terrible. You know, you shouldn't have to go through that. Let's talk about what you can do well that helps people feel a whole lot better, that there isn't something about them that makes them be the target of a bully. A lot of people think, you know, what did I do to cause this? And you didn't do anything. Bullies pick on everybody, but they keep picking on the people that let them,   Michael Hingson ** 49:52 and that's the real key, isn't it? It's all about you let them do it. You don't find ways to deal with. The issue, and the result is they're going to continue to do it, because they can   Bill Eddy ** 50:04 Right exactly. And people get depressed. They get stomach aches, headaches, they can't sleep, they avoid coming into work, they get disciplined, they get in trouble themselves. And that's a lot of why I wrote the book to help people know, you know, no one deserves to be bullied. This is wrong. This shouldn't be happening to you. Now look at what your choices are, what your options are.   Michael Hingson ** 50:32 We have an ever increasing number of startup companies in in the world, and more entrepreneurs or starting their own companies and so on. And so why is it that a lot of startups have a high powered innovator, or someone at the top like that, who is a bully?   Bill Eddy ** 50:54 It seems to be that the personality of entrepreneurs that go getter startup includes a lot of the ingredients of personalities, of bullies. So first of all, believing that your ideas are superior, that no matter what other people think you should keep going, that you're smarter than all of them. Don't stop because the first two people said this was a dumb idea, and so they kind of have some insulation against that, that they're willing to persist, you know, I know this is a good idea, but they can also be aggressive. So they're out there approaching, you know, venture capitalists and and people to endorse them, people to do what they say, people to give them a lot of money so they have. They're skilled at presenting their ideas aggressively and probably an exaggerated belief in themselves. But that seems to work in the startup business, people are persuaded by charm and intelligence and go, Oh, this guy just seems really brilliant. Well, that's because he told you he's brilliant. He's actually a bully. And there are stories like that, like what we saw, and I talk about it in my book with Theranos, the blood draw sis and it really wasn't what it was made out to be. It was a brilliant idea, but they couldn't implement it, but they pretended that they could, and so they got lots of money, lots of respect, write ups in the big magazines. Elizabeth Holmes was seen as the next Steve Jobs. She lowered her voice. She was a con artist. She may have believed in her product, but she was willing to bend so many rules that she ended up going to prison. But entrepreneurs have that drive and that persuasion and persistence and aggressiveness, and that works with getting a startup going, but it often doesn't work with maintaining a company and an organization. And I spoke to investors for startups, mostly healthcare startups and and they said, we've got a lot of bullies here. What? What do we do? We gave them some tools and tips for how to manage, you know, soothe their ego by setting limits on them and and to spot them sooner and decide, can should we invest with this person, or are they over the top? So it's a it's a particular field where having having an almost bully personality is successful, but having a bully personality eventually blows up. So   Michael Hingson ** 53:57 since you mentioned him, just out of curiosity was Steve Jobs a bully.   Bill Eddy ** 54:01 I think he was, and I think he was successful because of his management team, because they did, in fact, learn how to set limits on him and rein in his worst behaviors. Because, like, There's one story, and I think I have it in the book, where he was going to fire a division of 200 people because the project wasn't coming along fast enough. And so he's like, I'm going to fire them. They're useless, they're idiots, they're terrible. And someone on the management team says, Hey, Steve, let's go for a walk. Let's go for a walk, because he liked to go for walks and talks. So they go for a walk, and an hour later, they come back, and he's not going to fire anybody. He's just going to give them some more specific instructions. And so he. His worst behaviors were restrained by his management team. And I think that's that's a work but at any given time, things were on the verge of blowing up. And he did get fired as the head of Apple right 1990s but they helped him enough, he was reigned in enough that he was successful in the 2000s hugely, six. I mean, I don't know if they're the biggest value company right now, but I think when he died, they were probably the most valuable company. So, yeah, this can happen. But the key is that he was restrained by his management team, and unrestrained bully is going to cause   Michael Hingson ** 55:49 damage. I wonder though, if, as he matured, if he did, I'm assuming that he did actually, if some of the bullying tendencies really did go away, and then he changed a little bit at least, of of how he functioned. I mean, clearly he was a strong personality, right? And clearly he was the innovator of so many products. And so I can see where personality might get in the way, because he wants it done now. He wants it done this way. But I wonder if over time, he became a little bit less of of a bully, and maybe it was just the management restraint, or maybe that was a part of it, but it's I think you're right. Probably was a little bit better as time went on. I think you're   Bill Eddy ** 56:38 right, because when he came back to Apple after he was fired and tried some other projects, I think that he learned to focus more and to be a little less disrespectful. And I remember I read his biography, I think of Walter Isaacson, and my conclusion was that he was definitely narcissistic, but I don't think he had a narcissistic personality disorder, which is an enduring pattern of self defeating behavior. I think he had traits and that he learned to manage those traits primarily because his management team, people around him taught him he needs to restrain those so he's an example of where you can have someone with a bullying personality and rein them in and have them be quite successful. So I think that's what happened there,   Michael Hingson ** 57:39 and he would see that, in fact, it worked to change how you're operating a little bit. And maybe it was, maybe it was always underneath. But at the same time, he learned that, hey, working the way I've been isn't really as effective as what I'm seeing happen when I operate this way. Yeah,   Bill Eddy ** 58:01 what's interesting about him is he was particularly collaborative. So he liked working with other people. He liked he liked people with pushback, people that would disagree, present another point of view. So they could, they could go back and forth, although if other people had a really brilliant idea, he started thinking it was his idea. Yeah, but he he really had had an ability to work with other people that a lot of bullies don't have. And I think that may be why you're quite right, that he did mature some he did restrain himself a little more and became able to be brilliant. Imagine how many other brilliant people might really contribute if they had that balance of a really good management team to rein them in, but some of our most narcissistic individuals don't pay attention and often ruin, ruin their own creations. I think of like Enron, as our company that was brilliant, but probably had two people with personality disorders on top, one anti social and one narcissistic, and they reinforced each other's bad traits. And I think that's why that went off the rails. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 59:29 well, and the, the other thing that comes to mind is, then you have another very successful person, Bill Gates, yeah, and I don't, I don't know. Do you think that he was a bully?   Bill Eddy ** 59:43 I think that he certainly engaged in bullying behavior when he was the head of Microsoft. And I remember hearing about, I don't know if it was a recording or a transcript in a book, but he was at a meeting, and he was just very distant. Painful to the thinking of other people in the meeting, like, like, almost ready to, like, drive them out of the room. And you know, what are you doing here? You're an idiot and stuff like that. And I must say, I read Paul Allen's book, which was idea, man, I think, is what it was called, and and he, he had enough examples in there that I think Bill Gates was also a bully. But I think that again, there was enough of a management team to keep him from destroying what he was building. And I must say, one of his most brilliant decisions was marrying Melinda French, and she turned him into a philanthropist. And he's donated, you know, billions of dollars, but he's also created things to help poor people. He's He's fought malaria, I think, and trying to get toilets where you don't have electricity, but you can have self managed toilets. And he's in, he's put energy into these projects. So I would say, somehow the edge, the bullying edge, was taken off, so he actually could work with other people and and have some empathy for them. So again, he might be someone who didn't have a personality disorder, but may have had some traits, but somehow the balance worked out, and the more people realize that you may have brilliant people around you, if you can rein them in enough, we may have a better society because of some of these difficult people.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:53 Well, clearly, Bill Gates had a very strong personality and and that's fine, but I do agree, I don't think that he really was a bully as such, in the way that we view it, for a lot of people as we've been discussing it, it doesn't mean that he didn't ever have any bullying kinds of behavior, but overall, he was successful, and is successful. And as you said, marrying Melinda has certainly made a significant difference in his outlook, and he's doing such great work, and you can't argue with that.   Bill Eddy ** 1:02:28 Yeah, and the fact that he's now divorced from Belinda, and I think that might have been more her idea than his, he still seems to be continuing on with his uh, philanthropy and doing works to help health health care, especially for people in really poor countries. So I think, and she changed his personality maybe a teeny little bit, and   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:54 climate change and climate   Bill Eddy ** 1:02:56 change for sure. Yeah, he's a big picture guy. He's one of our most deepest thinkers in the big picture, and we need people like that. So my goal isn't to eliminate bullies, it's to restrain them enough so they don't harm other people, but ideally, contribute to society   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:19 and they can. And it's a process. Well, this has been fun. I want to thank you for being here and talking about all this is, How do other people deal with it when they see somebody being bullied?   Bill Eddy ** 1:03:34 Well, bystanders need to speak up more and be assertive as well, and that's part of the cover of my book. Is a bully fish chasing a little fish who's about to grab and eat but gets distracted by a whole school of little fish chasing behind him who look bigger than him. And that's the bystanders. And bystanders need to speak up and say, hey, that's enough, Joe, or hey, that's enough, Jane. Or cut it out. Leave her alone. That when people do that, bullies often stop because they think they're getting away with something, or they're not even thinking they're just automatically bullying somebody. And when that happens, they realize, uh oh, my public may not be happy with me, and I don't want to alienate my public so you can have an influence as a bystander, and are encouraged to be assertive and not intimidated. And the more bystanders support each other, that much easier it is to stop bullies.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:43 Good advice and so cool. Well, again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been great. I hope all of you listening out there have found a lot of good tools that you can take away and use. Lot of good life lessons here by any standard you. I really so I really appreciate you taking the time to be with Bill and me today on unstoppable mindset. Love to get your thoughts, so please feel free to email me. Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael Hinkson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, N, Michael hingson.com/podcast, and wherever you are, give us a five star rating. We love those ratings on the podcast. We appreciate that, and would greatly value you you doing that. And again, your thoughts and for all of you, including Bill, if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, we'd love to hear from you. We don't really tend to discriminate and say, Oh, that's a bad idea just just saying bill, but so we'd love to really hear about more people you think ought to be, whoever you are on the podcast, and we will talk with them and make a plan to go forward with them. So don't ever hesitate to point out someone who you think ought to come on and again. Bill, I want to thank you one last time for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and we appreciate your time today. Well,   Bill Eddy ** 1:06:21 thanks so much, Michael. I've really enjoyed it too. We got into some stuff deeper than I have in some of my other interviews. So we really covered the covered the gamut. And I think, I think people will find that this is a topic that becomes more and more relevant every year. So thanks for getting the word out there   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:41 well, and I hope that people will buy your book and and all that too. Yeah, we have to get the book sales out there, right.   Bill Eddy ** 1:06:49 That's right. Thank you for that.   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:57 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

This episode I want you to meet Acen Kevin from Northern Uganda. Acen is unstoppable and remarkable in many ways. She grew up an orphan in Uganda and experienced many hardships and challenges working to seek an education. She discovered the power of community and persevered with the help and support of others. She secured a degree in Accounting and Finance and works in that field part time.   In 2021, Acen founded Itinga Charity Education Foundation, (ICEF) to sponsor and help children with disabilities and other disadvantaged children to get some of the breaks she received when seeking an education. She will tell us some of the stories of students who began with little or no hope and whose families also had no faith that their children could ever be successful. However, with the help of ICEF many children already have experienced life-changing attitudes and are getting the education they deserve. Wait until you hear the story about the blind magistrate who received assistance from ICEF and who now is well respected and has not lost a case.   It is always so rewarding to be able to talk with someone like Acen Kevin who just doesn't talk a good line, but who also proves daily that she lives and walks the walk she wishes for others to do.       About the Guest:   Acen Kevin is the Founder and Executive Director of Itinga Charity Education Foundation (ICEF), a non-profit NGO based in Uganda. With a strong commitment to advancing the education of disadvantaged children and youth in Northern Uganda, Acen has established ICEF to provide scholarships, grants, and essential educational resources to schools and children in need.   A dedicated disability inclusion advocate, Acen's work with ICEF focuses on empowering blind children through education. By championing inclusive education, Her non profit NGO is working in Partnership with Imara-Uganda Education Fund UK  to fund the  construction of an inclusive secondary school in Northern Uganda that is already providing  inclusive education to both abled and disabled students, fostering a supportive and accessible learning environment for all.   In addition to her impactful work in the non-profit sector, Acen Kevin is also a finance and accounting professional, holding a degree in Accounting and Finance from Metropolitan International University (MIU). Her diverse skill set includes proficiency in computerized accounting tools such as QuickBooks and Excel, as well as experience in financial reporting, budgeting, and internal controls.   Outside of her role at ICEF, Acen is a talented filmmaker and actress in Uganda, using her creative talents to raise awareness and advocate for social change. She is a line producer of  CLUBFOOT movie that is creating awareness  and  remedies to clubfoot. Disability through clubfoot can  only be avoided at early childhood. Acen also  featured on  the Wave movie and  TV series Senkyu boss among others.   Acen Kevin is a selfless philanthropist who continues to make a positive impact in her community and beyond.   Ways to connect with Nick:   REACH OUT TO ITINGA CHARITY EDUCATION FOUNDATION (ICEF) ON THE WEBSITE  https://icef-itinga.org   LINKEDIN  https://www.linkedin.com/in/acen-kevin-daniela-336386281?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=android_app   FACEBOOK  https://www.facebook.com/Itinga.org   WHATSAPP   +256 705 100 34 For inquiries or collaboration opportunities, please contact Acen Kevin  (Daniela) at: Telephone: +256 772 003 460. Email: kevin.abtmail@gmail.com, kevin@icef-itinga.org     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi and welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're back with us again, and today we get to meet with Acen Kevin Danila. And it's actually Acen Kevin, and Danila is her middle name. She is the founder of ICEF, a charity in northern Uganda that helps children, disadvantaged children specifically. And I'm fascinated to hear about that and to learn more about what the charity does and and so on. But we're going to start by welcoming Acen to the podcast and learn a little bit about her. So Acen, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. Thank you for taking the time.   Acen Kevin ** 02:05 Thank you so much, Michael. Thank you so much. And thanks for giving me the opportunity being the unstoppable mindset podcast. It's a great pleasure.   Michael Hingson ** 02:20 Well, why don't we start by you telling us a little bit about you growing up and kind of the early Acen, if you will. Okay?   Acen Kevin ** 02:31 My story growing up has not been easy in terms of education. I struggled so much through education being unopened, I really did not have anybody to support me through education, but like the sales goes that people are stronger when you're together. So I had really so many people who supported me through education. I was sponsored by five different individuals, people, including an organization in Mara Uganda education. So you can imagine that it has really been a struggle, and that is one of the reason why I decided to give back to the community to see that children who were in the situation that I was, or even was, children that are traveling through education, they can get education. So life has not been really so easy as far as education is concerned. For me,   Michael Hingson ** 03:47 one of the things that you do with the foundation, and we'll get to the foundation, but you do a lot of work with children with disabilities. Did you or do you have a disability?   Acen Kevin ** 03:57 No, no, I don't have any disability at all. Okay, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 04:04 but that's just one of the areas that you decided that you wanted to work with. So did you? You went to you went to school, and you said education was hard, I assume, because just the normal pressures of being an orphan and and just having to do all the things that you had to do growing up, right? Yes, so   Acen Kevin ** 04:24 I really decided to support disability inclusions, support inclusive education, to sponsor children and youth who are blind and those with low vision, not because I have any disability, but because in my community, I see two sides. I see those ones who are empowered, and those one who I educated, and they have the skills they do better. Lacher than the somebody who is blind and is not empowered. Normally, they turn into begging on streets, and they say, they say to start to look at them like a burden in the society. So I, through my charity, and it is what we are doing now, we want to empower them so that they can reach their full potentials, they can be able to earn a living through the skills they get through education. And I am inspired by the blind people who are educated and they are empowered. One of them is the majesty grade one judge who is also from my community is a lawyer. Sorry, it is that is the inspiration I am inspired by people like you. So I want really many people with the disability to get because chance education, yeah, thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 06:05 So did you? Did you go to college? Yes,   Acen Kevin ** 06:10 yes, I have a degree in accounting and finance. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 06:14 that's a little bit different from starting a charity or a foundation, it would seem, but you you got your degree in finance and accounting. Did you do anything directly with that? Did you have any earlier jobs in accounting and finance, or did you decide immediately that you wanted to start the foundation,   Acen Kevin ** 06:37 um, with my career in a degree in accounting and finance. I do practice that as well. Even in the NGO, it really helped me to do good accounting taxation. So I still use the same skill to run the strategy, and I practice that before. Yes, accounting and finance. So it has really helped, helped me, yes. So   Michael Hingson ** 07:07 tell us a little bit about if you would the foundation, the name of it, and where the name came from, and how you started it. Yes.   Acen Kevin ** 07:18 Eating a charity. Education Foundation is a non profit organization that advanced education of disadvantaged children in northern Uganda through provision of scholarships, materials, school supplies and facilities for education. The word eating is the local law language, which means you lift me. So it symbolizes lifting up children out of poverty through education. So eating means you lift me.   Michael Hingson ** 07:53 Atinga means you lift me. Okay, I understand that, which is a very clever name and very accurate.   Acen Kevin ** 08:04 We focus mainly on disability inclusion and empowering the blind and youth to reach their full potentials.   Michael Hingson ** 08:11 When did you start the foundation?   Acen Kevin ** 08:15 The foundations, uh, started in 2021   Michael Hingson ** 08:19 so it's fairly new. So it's been, sorry I say it's fairly new. It's been around three years. Yes,   Acen Kevin ** 08:26 yes, for three years, yes, but we're already making great impact.   Michael Hingson ** 08:32 Well, tell me a little bit about that. Tell me if you could about maybe some of the the people you've helped some of their stories, a little bit, if you would,   Acen Kevin ** 08:43 the children that we are supporting,   Michael Hingson ** 08:45 yeah, a little bit about them, kind of what successes you have.   Acen Kevin ** 08:51 Okay, so, as I said earlier on, that the organization sponsor children through Award Scholarship for education. So the children that we are having and our scholarship programs are children that are really needy, and they are coming from very poor background, so we provide them with full scholarship, and they we educate them right from primary level, secondary level, up to university, then terza institution and vocational depending on the capability of the child. But those children, they are these families that stand out. They they all have different, different stories. Like, for example, we have two families that has many children. They have many children with who are blind. There's one family that have seven children, and of the seven. Children. Four were born completely blind. So in 2019 we started sponsoring one of them. Then this year, we got a sponsor who offered to sponsor a child and is sponsoring one. So so far in that family, we are helping two children, and they it is hard. Life is hard for them, as they are facing farmers and having to take care of the poor, totally blind children and then the rest the seven children all in the family. We also have similar family. There's a family we are supporting now, one girl who is studying in the new school that we have the inclusive schools, and Mary Goretti is the akulo. Akulo comes from a family of nine. There are nine children, but out of the nine, four were born blind, and she she did not really get a chance to study in an inclusive school during our primary. So one of our brother, the elder brother, who is also blind, dropped out of school already, and even her, she had already dropped out of school when our organization was told about her, so we had to pick her, and now she's studying well and learning braille, and she's already in senior one this year. We have met different children with different who are from very poor background. We have one boy that we have been sponsoring. He's already now in senior two. We started sponsoring him right from primary five. He comes from a child headed family. The first time I went to that family was in 2020, 2021, when we started the charity, I shed tears because we could see the grave of the Mother, the Father. And there are these three young boys. They have to take care of themselves. They have to farm to eat. So it's really, it's really very difficult for them, and it makes my I feel happy now to see that the boy we talk is doing well and he studies so he can bless the family in future so many of those children who have the potentials. So in our charity, we are not always sponsoring, the children who are blind, others with low vision. We sponsor all categories of children. However, we have inclusion. So we include everybody. We have those ones who are learn that we are sponsoring. We have those one with without any physical challenge that we are also sponsoring.   Michael Hingson ** 13:05 Now, when you say you're sponsoring, you you actually have to contribute to or pay for their education. There isn't public funding available for that. Or how does the process work? When   Acen Kevin ** 13:16 we say we are sponsoring, normally, we we don't really have, like, funding grade available. So we keep on donations that come the general donation. And then we also have sponsor child program where we have an individual people, ah, saying that I want to sponsor a child, and we have them sponsoring each children and our charity. So what is the audience not available? We keep on fund raising. We keep on looking for donation for that. And beside the scholarship program, we also provide materials for education, materials like the Braille machines, the Braille papers to inclusive schools for the blind, and we also provide textbooks to other schools that are not inclusive school. So we provide all those materials which are needed for education,   Michael Hingson ** 14:20 and that's because the traditional schools really don't have the resources to get those materials themselves.   Acen Kevin ** 14:26 Yes, yes.   Michael Hingson ** 14:30 So itinga does that. It provides those materials and gives the support to essentially make for more of an equal education for children with disabilities and others who need your support.   Acen Kevin ** 14:48 Yes, yes, we we do that. We do that. We make sure. Because, like, say, for one example, in Laos, up region. Where our office is located, you find that there's only one two schools which are giving inclusive education to the blind, and those schools you may go there, they have only two brains that are being shared by teachers and children. So we try to support such schools. Then still in Uganda, you will be surprised if you come here that we still have children that study under the tree, that write down on the on the floor. They write down without men, without books. So we also give school supplies when everybody children facili also give like this, provide this, provide computer so that is under materials for education.   Michael Hingson ** 15:54 So I don't know whether this is an easy question to answer. So what does it cost to sponsor a child, maybe for a year in school?   Acen Kevin ** 16:05 What it cost to sponsor a child for a year in school? Um, now it depends, but normally when the we are to Award Scholarship, we normally start from primary school. So that's you. You really say it's a hard question, because it varies. First of all, it depends on the school where the child is going, because every school has different fee structures. And then it also depends on the on the level, level of education of that child, if the child is in secondary school, like in Saint Mary's already right now, those who are sponsoring the child there, I it cost, ah, around that is six, 606 188,000 to sponsor a Child per town, so in a year, it's about two two millions Uganda shilling. And that can be how much in   Acen Kevin ** 17:08 ah, that can be around 600 pounds sports a child in a secondary school. So the lower level pays also lower the higher levels pays. So space.   Michael Hingson ** 17:23 Do you get a lot of resistance from the schools when you talk about, say, bringing a child with a disability into the school? Do they do they welcome? Or is there more resistance because they feel that that kind of a child is not going to be able to get the same level of education or be able to learn as well, or is it pretty welcoming?   Acen Kevin ** 17:49 It's not welcoming, not also the welcoming to children with disability, that is the path, and that is why I'm calling this other school, that inclusive school. So they are few schools that do that. So if you take a child when I was still volunteering with the Mara Uganda education plan as an administrator, before even a teenage charity, we had this one girl that had multiple disability and we took her to a school that was an inclusive so the girl was really performing poorly. Sometimes would even get 05 out of 100 because if she's seated outside under the tree, no one would bother if the bell rings, the rest are running to class. No one will care. But for the inclusive school, they have a system where a student, student, like a student, can help the fellow students. Somebody knows that, okay, he cannot see so I can help him if he's moving in a new environment. You cannot maybe climb here. It is not very accessible. Someone can help you push your wheelchair. So it is really hard. It's not really welcoming. If they allow you to study there, then sometime a child go there just to pass and they get a lot of, I don't know, people that discriminate, like, what are you studying for? You can't be anything you know people can discourage and you find that says children are not really happy, but when they are in a inclusive school, they are happy, and they really fit to the environment. They feel important, and they are able to study in that friendly environment and become very, very powerful people in the society.   Michael Hingson ** 19:55 Okay, I understand what, what made you. Decide to focus so much attention on disadvantaged children or children with disabilities, that had to be a a pretty challenging decision to make, knowing what you would have to face to make it, make it real. So what   Acen Kevin ** 20:17 made me to do that, or what made us to say that the charity should focus in disability inclusions and empowering, especially children who are who are blind and low vision, is because in my society, in my my my community, as I said earlier on, you would see the different in those one who managed to get education and those one who did not. It really hit me hard always when I moved in my town on the street of Kampala and I find somebody who is blind is begging on the street. No, somebody who is having a disability is begging. No. And for them, I feel like the person with disability should even be empowered more than somebody without disability, because if I don't have the disability, I can be able to at least do other things, and you know, but I you really need education, like the blind need education, because right now they are, they Are those assistive technology that help help them to do other things that they it would be hard to do so if you're not educated, it can really be very hard. So I believe that every child has deserved the right to really have education, irrespective of whether your ability, everybody should have education.   Michael Hingson ** 22:10 What kind of successes have you experienced so far, you said that you've sponsored children of all ages. So have you had any who were old enough that they've now finished school and gotten jobs or anything like that? Or do you have any examples of children who you have been able to sponsor, who've been able to show that they can learn like anyone else and become more accepted in their in their schools.   Acen Kevin ** 22:43 Yes, we have those children that already making us feel happy for what we are doing, because we really see how the charity is making an impact, is bringing changes to the life of children eating our charity, Education Foundation, is working in partnership with the Mara Uganda education plan. So a Mara Uganda education plan has been in Uganda, uh, working in Uganda for the last 10 years, since 211 and when we started the partnership in 2021, they entrusted the children that were already their scholarship to our charity. So those ones that were entrusted to us, they already we have those one that already completed their studies. We have been those ones who are already right now. They are teachers, they are midwife. We have been the one who already completed their diploma in clinical medicine, TiVo engineering we are having those one who have completed already like then we have the students after already doing their degree in education like they want to become teachers. So ready. The charity is changing life. And you see that the children who are from a very poor school in the village, because when we take you to sponsor education, we bring you to a school that provide quality education. So there's life change. Children that we took from primary, they already in secondary school, and they're performing extremely well. And with the children with disability for the last three years that we have worked, we have seen changes in them, like there's one girl joy. Joy is completely blind. When she first joined, she was not very confident, but now she's the one who represent all the blind children and low vision and our charity. She has been representing even other NGO outside. She has traveled outside the country to advocate people, people who are who are blind. So it's really very impressive to see our children, even when they are still standing. You see already the life change. You see a child that came when did not even know English at all, even the interview for scholarship we might have done in the local language, but now they speak English, so there's really a life change. And then with children with disability, one big thing that I also see even their families, their families that already they are they were not having support. They were not having love for such children. Some had already been locked then in the house like the people don't know that there's a child with disability in that family, but the moment we get that child and start sponsoring it, change the attitude of parents toward them. They start to say, okay, because they see how now the child is doing well, is being taken care of, so they also start now to support the love increase have seen. So the mindsets of parents are also changing to see them there. And normally we have programs that parents with children with disability meet together. So you find that they start to they start to see, okay, you are seeing you. Somebody who is blind is already a teacher in the school, is a social worker, is a lawyer. So it also gave them, because if somebody has been in the parents who has been deep in rural village, first of all, you started when some, some people even ask us, now, you want to sponsor this one? Don't you think, why don't you take my child? This one, who can see, hm, I've ever been asked that one, I think two parents did that. There's one who said, You take this one and they leave this one, but after they see how these children are catching up, you know? So it's motivating not only to the to the parents and also even the children. The children get to their mind, get to change. They get to know that they are value in the community. Yes, they can become anything they want, if they study, if they are empowered, so they really strive. But I'm so happy to see how this is making a big impact.   Michael Hingson ** 28:06 Well, I can, I can hear it in your voice. I mean, you're, you're clearly very happy and very proud of of the work that you're doing, and absolutely and you're obviously changing attitudes, which is important because we all face that, we face these attitudes, that we're less than other people, and it's so hard to get people to understand that, in fact, we're just as capable as anyone else.   Acen Kevin ** 28:35 Yes, yes, that much I've experienced it. That's very true. Very, very true.   Michael Hingson ** 28:46 So tell me a little bit more about the whole idea of inclusive secondary school project in northern Uganda, and what that is, and how you're involved with that.   Acen Kevin ** 29:02 Oh, yes, the inclusive secondary school in my in the there, there used to be no secondary school which is inclusive. There was no inclusive secondary school in the region, in the whole of Lao sub region in northern Uganda, where our office is created, there were no inclusive secondary school. There were only two inclusive primary school, and in those schools, children were dropping out of school every year, because when you complete your primary then you have nowhere to go. Reason being, the few inclusive schools that we have in Uganda, whole school for the blind, the inclusive school that provide the school that provide inclusive education to the blind, they are far, very, very far from us. And. You don't expect a parents who who is traveling and does not even have a smartphone to coordinate, to even get just admission to go to such school, live a long transport to go to a school which is verified another district in another sub region. Maybe take a child Kampala so shall parents would just giving give it up. And you find that every year these children are dropping out of school, ah, they start going back in the village. And we couldn't imagine it, because for me it's terrible if I imagine somebody who is lying and has no support, no love, no education, no skills to earn a living, I think life can really be very tough for them. So in last year, 2023, eating a charity, Education Foundation and a Mara Uganda education plan took action. We had to say, No, the charity, our charity, is very, very small, but for the love we have for the children, for the heart we have for charity who are like, what can we do? Should we get already exhibit school and we provide them with Braille equipment to support the student? What can we do? Will we manage to build but we started it with faith last year, and so far, we have finished page one of the construction project, which are eight classroom, eight classrooms, administrative offices and the reception. So right now, as I talk, I'm so happy to announce that the school pioneers already with senior one class, and the construction is still going on, but already senior one class is already starting. So next year we shall be having senior this one in senior two, while we had with senior one, then it will continue in senior four, the pioneers will be the first to see the final unit exams. So the school is called Saint Mary's Goretti Secondary School meta. It provide inclusive education to the blind, to those students with low vision. We have a student with celebral palsy. We having students who are learning we are having so it is providing inclusive education to both able and student with disability. And it is amazing. I don't know if you have seen my recent post on LinkedIn, we made a video clip showing how the students are studying together the inclusive classroom. It's amazing. They are studying together in one classroom, and everything is moving fine because they have special needs teachers around, and even those who are not specially teachers, they are learning now to to handle the students. So I'm really so so happy about this school and the initiative already the school, the school is providing not only education, even jobs, teachers who had completed school, they especially teachers, they were able to get jobs in the school The community around now that the construction is also ongoing, and we believe that this is a legacy. We believe that this school will continue for for many years, will be there for many years, to provide inclusive education to the children. I'm happy that the community has embraced it. The community is so happy about the school, Saint Mary's Gore to second with school. I'm being invited in local FM radio stations in northern Uganda many times to talk about the school, so that those those parents who have children with the disability who are not yet aware that already there's an inclusive second school they can to create awareness about the school. I'm happy that even those one who are working with government, they're already advocating they will be having some. Port. And just last town, Uganda Bible Society, they donated to the school the Braille the Braille Bible. We having other po that are donating to us, like the Braille machines. So school has started, and we are really so, so happy about that, and I would like to thank also our partner, Uganda education plan for allowing to support though we call upon everyone who would like to support us so that we can finish we complete the facilities of the school support may not only did the construction, but also equipment. We need those assistive devices. First of all, we have a few brails, and next year, we are expecting other lots of students. So it's impressive, and I'm so joyous every time I just two days ago, a parent who has a child with cerebral palsy, was giving me, telling me how she really struggled to look for schools. She even wanted to leave her job so that she can at least create something, a room to train the so that they see how to train those one their children with disability, because she looked for school, inclusive school, everywhere, she was even trying to call Education Board to ask, Where can I find the inclusive school? So in Uganda, the challenge we are having the secondary school which are inclusive are very, very few. It is more of primary when the child is still young. Yes, you can manage with your child with cerebral palsy, you can manage, but when the child now reach all ordinary level and advanced level, it is hard to find such a school. So this school is really a dream come true for me, for my community. Yes, have   Michael Hingson ** 37:10 any of the students, the older students in the school, gone on to get jobs? Sorry, have you had any any of the students who have been in in the inclusion environment or who have attended classes, have they graduated and gone on and gotten jobs yet? Or have you had that level of success?   Acen Kevin ** 37:35 Okay, yes, yes, I've had the level of success before. That is one of the motivation for like, for example, this where we have constructed this inclusive school, Saint Mary's, goreti. It's actually at next to the primaries to today, inclusive primary school, all net adults that has been providing inclusive education to to the blind for many years. So many students, many people who studied from net adults and go to opportunity, especially those one who are being sponsored by NGO or hard parents that could afford to take them far to study in an inclusive school, maybe in like in Kampala in iganga, they made it. They made it. And one of the all beings of that school, the old boy of Netta girls primary school made it. He studied law, yeah, he studied law from bucharebe, and he's, he's completely blind, but he was appointed as a grade one chief magistrate, so it's the court judge. Wow, very good. And he has never lost the case. In fact, when he was appointed, even up to now, he has inspired so many people, so many journalists interviewed him, and he can do, he is doing his work, which is really a great inspiration to all the those one who are applying and to all of us who are supporting disability inclusions and inclusive education. Uh huh. So we have. I've seen so many. I've seen those one who managed to become teachers. I've seen the those ones who are social workers, very many, and I'm the another example. If you Michael, I've seen your biography. Yes. So thank you. You all inspire us. Well   Michael Hingson ** 39:55 have so you talked about the the young man who became. A magistrate. How about girls? Have any girls gone on to get jobs yet?   Acen Kevin ** 40:06 Correct? Any   Michael Hingson ** 40:07 girls or women gone on to get jobs after going to the schools? Yes,   Acen Kevin ** 40:13 yes. I've seen many girls who become like they are doing managerial questions with NGOs, they are working. That's why I'm saying others are social workers. I've seen others who are teachers, and they are completely they're completely blind, and those one who are advocating, they're working with the organization for for disability to advocate for the rest get education,   Michael Hingson ** 40:46 but you do work with children other than children who are blind. It's not just blind children you work with. Yes, uh huh. Okay. Well, tell me, what has all of this taught you? I mean, this was a major I call it an adventure, but it was a major step to start this foundation and to do the work that you're doing. What have you learned from it?   Acen Kevin ** 41:12 What I've learned from it? Think I've learned that. I've learnt that everybody, like every child, can really do something like what I've learnt is I've seen, if I've seen how education can empower somebody to become great, because I've seen the children becoming sure having talent like recently, we have been we are performing in Paralympic blind football. So you can see the talent that children with disability have. Some of them are debaters or the two poems I've seen them watch. I've seen them play keyboard, play keyboard, become musicians. So it's really inspiring. I've learned a lot. I've learned that what I've learned working with children with disability, doing the work that we are doing with the charity. So I've learned that if we together, if we empowered and embraced accessibility, disability inclusions and inclusive education, we will create equitable society. And I've also learned that children or people with disability can do anything as long as they are empowered. So we would like to empower them to reach their full potential,   Michael Hingson ** 43:13 certainly a pretty important lesson to learn, and I'm glad you have and that you're able to pass that on to to other people? What would you give? What kind of advice would you give to young people who are looking to starting to think about making a difference in their own community? What kind of advice would you want to give them, and when they don't know where to start and so on.   Acen Kevin ** 43:45 Yes, I would advise them to first collaborate with like minded people, like minded people, and then they should also know charity, it really has a lot to do with the heart. So they should try to discover, is it really what they want? Because if you have a mind for business, and then you come with the charity, it may not work well for you. So do you have the heart to give back to the community, so I would advise that they should volunteer with maybe other angel PRI and learnt what happens with the charitable organization. How then if they can also do charity work? So there you keep learning. I, for one, I did not just wake up and start a with eating a charity. I also volunteer with the organization, and in my heart, I really wanted to. I. Really wanted to give back to the community. I wanted to at least sponsor one or two children, and I was praying that God, if you can give me a good job with good salary so that I can do that. But it so happened that I got the favor and the way out to operate, to to have the charity funded, which now it's now making me to more than I could imagine. I wouldn't have been able to sponsor many children that we are we are sponsoring now through the charity without just alone as an individual. So it really has got something to do with the heart. What is your heart? You have the you really, is it what you want to do? Because if you have a business mind, don't try it. So yes, those are the advice I can give to those who want to start the charity. It   Michael Hingson ** 45:59 is good to explore, which is something that you did. You volunteered. You, you thought about it before you really jumped in and started your own foundation. But you also clearly do work in business, because you have an accounting and finance degree. So do you actually have a full time accounting and finance job as well as doing the foundation,   Acen Kevin ** 46:24 no, both are part time accounting and finance doing part time. Then also in the organization, it is I get time to so that I can get time to work, and also my skills in accounting and finance. It has helped me to to run the charity, because we are able to comply to have the annual audited report done, to not have issues with taxations because of the skills. Uh, huh,   Michael Hingson ** 47:00 yes. Well, you, you have, you have been traveling on a pretty interesting and exciting journey. Can you maybe give me some stories, a personal story for you about what you've done and and about this journey that you're on and and how it's changed your life.   Acen Kevin ** 47:21 So my my personal journey, and how my, the life has changed. Um, it's about education, really. I think my mind is stuck to education, because, as I said, as I said it earlier on, I struggle so much through education, having being sponsored by many people because I was coming to my father died when I was young, And I could not manage really go through with education. I have personally dropped out of school at one time, so I understand how it feels for somebody to drop out of school. I've been out of school, so that's really my personal journey, and right now, having achieved what I wanted to achieve, like to have my degree, it's really great. It has changed my life, and I want every, every one that we support, that are struggling, the children, to also experience this life change. And I'm happy for those who already experiencing the life change.   Michael Hingson ** 48:55 Yes, which is great. What are your plans going forward? What do you see is coming next?   Acen Kevin ** 49:04 My plan going forward, I would really want to continue advocating on disability inclusions for accessibility, to make sure that everyone is treated equal, irrespective or regardless of your abilities. So I I see myself, or I see eating a child education foundation, together with the marriage Uganda Education Fund and other partners that will come on board. We see ourselves pushing higher and higher i i come from a community where very many people are illiterate. They want to see that many people have education. They are, they are. Able to, you know, to earn a living by themselves, to support others. So yes, and we also hope to complete the construction of Saint Mary's Goretti, so that we have also this, the inclusive school going that can help the children from all level to a level, senior one to senior six. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 50:31 let me ask you this, if I might um, what? What would you like? What would you like the people who are listening to our podcast today. What would you like them to learn? And what kind of message do you want them to take away from this?   Acen Kevin ** 50:48 Yes, to those who are watching us, to those who are listening to the podcast right now. I I would like them to to know that every child, irregardless of their ability, they have the potential to learn. When they are empowered, they can learn so I call upon all of them. I call upon everybody who is listening to to us right now that they should contact eating a church Education Foundation, or a marriage a Mara Uganda education plan. How there's our website on the bio below, you can support us by through donation, we call upon other organization to partner with us, because together, we can achieve together we can create a critical society. Together we can support disability inclusions. Let's support disability inclusion. Let's support the children. So yes, that is what I would like them to do to help us and the child. We also have a child program.   Michael Hingson ** 52:15 Well, if people want to reach out, how do they do that? When   Acen Kevin ** 52:20 people want to reach out to us, they can reach out on our website, www.icef-itinga.org It is down in in our bio. Then you can also reach out to us through LinkedIn. You can find us on Facebook. You can find us on Tiktok. You just have to type on Instagram. Also you just type eating charity, Education Foundation. Then you can reach out to us. You will be able to find our office address there. You will be able to find our telephone contacts, yes, feel free to visit us. Feel free to support. I call upon your support for our charity mission together, let us support disability inclusions so   Michael Hingson ** 53:15 people can email you. I know it's in your biography they can reach you. At, Kevin, k, e, v, I N, at, I C, E, F, dash, I T, I N, G, A, dot, O, R, G, and so I hope people will reach out to you, and   Acen Kevin ** 53:37 I look forward to that right   Michael Hingson ** 53:39 now. I hope that they will support and I hope that they will also take the message back to their communities, because clearly you are setting a very positive example that people should follow. And I and I'm glad that we did have the opportunity to finally get together and do this today. Um, it's been a while in coming. You're 10 hours ahead of us, so that makes it kind of fun to be able to schedule a time. But we did make it work, didn't we?   Acen Kevin ** 54:10 Yes, yes, we did. Thank you so much for the opportunity, for giving me this great opportunity to speak to the whole world about what we are doing at English and Education Foundation to tell them that, yes, we are supporting children who are blind, the dose with low vision, yes, and we are having the construction of an inclusive school going on. Lira,   Michael Hingson ** 54:39 well, I appreciate you saying that and that you took the time to come on and and be with us today, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching us on YouTube or wherever you're seeing our podcast or hearing our podcast, mostly hearing, I'd love to hear from you if you have ideas for guests and attend you as well, if you know anyone. Else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. Please let us know I am easily reachable at Michael M, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, you can also go to our podcast page, which is w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael Hinkson is m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O n.com/podcast, so we appreciate your listening and whoever you are, wherever you may be, please give us a five star rating on the podcast. What we do here is try to show people who are unstoppable and and we want everyone to realize that they can be more unstoppable than they think they can. And I think that Acen, Kevin is definitely showing that, and I hope that you'll all take that very much to heart. So give us a five star rating. We appreciate it. And again Acen, one last time, I'd like to thank you for being here with us and taking your time this afternoon.   Acen Kevin ** 56:03 You're welcome. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure. It's been a pleasure being the podcast.   **Michael Hingson ** 56:13   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Talk about being unstoppable, I can offer no better example than our guest this time, Nick Prefontaine. My impression is that Nick grew up as a pretty normal kid, but at the age of fourteen his life changed when he suffered a major traumatic brain injury that left him paralyzed, unable to talk nor even able to feed himself. Nick will take us through his experience including his decision along the way to eventually leave the hospital by running out the door. Roughly 60 days after entering a rehabilitation hospital Nick met his goal by running out of the hospital when he was discharged. How did he do it? As he tells us he was able to employ what he later called the S.T.E.P. system. What is S.T.E.P? It stands for Support, Trust, Energy and Persistence. At the age of 16, Nick while still in school began learning the real estate world. He will tell us about some of the lessons he learned along the way which are quite fascinating. Today in his mid-thirties, Nick still works in real estate along with his father, but he also has formed his own company named Common Goal. Only a few years ago Nick began learning how to coach and help others who are facing serious challenges in their lives. He works especially with people who are experiencing serious brain injuries such as what he encountered. He is a successful author and coach. There are many good life lessons that come out of my time with Nick Prefontaine and I am sure you will agree with me that his observations are invaluable and worth exploring. You can even visit his website, www.NickPrefontaine.com/step” where you can obtain a free copy of his eBook describing in detail his S.T.E.P. system. About the Guest: Nick Prefontaine is a 3x best selling author and was named a top motivational speaker of 2022 in Yahoo Finance. He's a Speaker, Founder and CEO of Common Goal. Using the S.T.E.P. system he is able to lead clients through their trauma. Once they make it through, that is where their limitless potential lies. Nick's been featured in Brainz Media, Swaay and Authority Magazine. At 14, Nick suffered a life-threatening snowboarding accident. His parents were told that he'd never walk, talk or eat again on his own again. He made a personal goal that he would not walk but run out of the hospital. He unknowingly used a system to do just that and less than 60 days later he ran out of the hospital. Nick got started in the real estate industry at an early age. Most notably, he was knocking on pre-foreclosure doors at 16, doing 50+ doors a day. This experience not only shaped his career but it also was a part of his recovery. Going door to door, helping people out of their unfortunate situation. Ways to connect with Nick: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickprefontaine/ https://www.facebook.com/nick.prefontaine.7/ www.NickPrefontaine.com/step About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 You are listening, once again, to an episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and today we get to really deal with the unexpected, as I tell people oftentimes about the podcast. Sometimes we do get to talk about inclusion, and we do that before we talk about diversity, because diversity never includes disabilities. But mostly what we get to talk about is the unexpected, which is anything that doesn't have to do with inclusion or diversity. So mostly we get to do the unexpected today, whatever that may mean. Our guest is Nick Prefontaine, Nick, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here all the way back in Rhode Island, so we have to yell across the country to reach each other, huh?   Nick Prefontaine ** 02:05 Absolutely. Michael, however, I've been, I've been looking forward to this for for a few weeks now. So looking forward to jumping in with you. Me too. I'm really looking forward to it, and   Michael Hingson ** 02:16 I know we do get to do some unexpected, really neat story things and so on. But why don't we start tell us about the early Nick growing up. And I know your story integrates into that at some point, but tell us. Tell us about the early Nick. You're, you're setting your set me right up. I try right up. So   Speaker 1 ** 02:35 I, um, alright, so I was at, I was actually at Ski Club with my friends are on the way, we all got released a little bit early. So it was super exciting, as I'm sure you can imagine, or your listeners can imagine, when you're in eighth grade, you get released a little bit early. It's always a big deal. It's always a big thing. So whenever we add Ski Club, we always got released a little bit early. So that was exciting to begin with, and then my friends and I all brought our snowboard gear on the bus to get ready so we could get as most the most out of that day as possible, as far as runs, and not waste any time once we got to the mountain to get ready. So we got some mountain the rest of the class migrated inside to get their ski and snowboard attire on. And we were ready. Because we were prepared. We got ready on the bus. We we had to write for the chair lift. And then going up, we noticed that it was very icy, because it had been raining, so people were wiping out everywhere. However, the the chairlift went right over the terrain park where all of the jumps were, and I knew, as soon as I saw it, that I had to go off the biggest jump in the terrain park. I was like, Oh yeah, that's got my name all over it. So   Nick Prefontaine ** 04:00 got to the top, buckled into my snowboard, took a breath of that crisp winter air, and confidently charged towards that jump with all my speed. And then going after the jump, I caught the edge of my snowboard would sue me off balance, and so I was forced to go off the jump, off balance. I've come to learn that at the moment of impact, I had a decision to make, and I got really still, so I'd left my body and I had two choices. Option one,   Speaker 1 ** 04:34 it's going to be really hard, and once you get through it, you'll help. You'll be able to help trauma survivors to thrive with the rest of their lives, or you can move on to the other side. And I chose a really hard path. So once I got to the hospital, the they actually to get me to the hospital, they wanted to bring a helicopter in. However, it.   Speaker 1 ** 05:00 It was too windy, so they had to send in an ambulance. And out of all the paramedics in the the entire county, there was only one who could intubate right in the spot, and I needed that to be able to breathe. And lucky for me, he was one of the paramedics that showed up to the mountain that day,   Speaker 1 ** 05:22 there's, there's. So that's one, one thing, that's one of the things that contributed to why I'm able to talk to you today and still tell this story. The second one was I had a pair of goggles that I wore, so I wasn't although I wasn't wearing a helmet, and I later learned that I wasn't wearing a helmet, which I usually did when I went to this particular mountain, I was wearing a pair of goggles, and the goggles that I wore had a lot of padding in them. So not only did they brace my impact as I continue to roll down the mountain and continue to hit my head. The goggles mysteriously moved with each impact to brace each each individual impact. So that was the first thing that happened, paramedics. The right paramedic out of all the ones in the area. That was the second the third. Once I got to the hospital, I was I was out, I was toast.   Speaker 1 ** 06:26 The doctors said that I would have been in a coma for seven to 10 days at a minimum, just based on the impact alone. However, Michael, I had swelling in my brain, and the doctors were worried that if I woke up and panicked, the swelling would increase and I would have died, so they had to induce me into a coma. And very early on, when I was resting in the intensive care unit, my parents were the only ones, my immediate family, who were allowed in that room. And the doctors came right in front of me, no fault of their own. They were just doing their job, but they   Speaker 1 ** 07:11 they came into my room to share the prognosis. And as I'm sure you can imagine, it was not so positive, not so positive, not so positive. Each time they will come into my room where I was in a coma. I was out, albeit, but I was in a coma. So they went to share this with my parents. And right as they started talking, my mom stopped them, and she said, No, no, not in front of him, because she understood that even though I was in a coma, I wasn't conscious, I was still taking in information, albeit subconsciously or unconsciously. I always confuse those two. Still to this day, I always confuse those two, however, because my mom stopped the doctors from sharing that news in front of me, made them step outside the room. Once they got outside the room, that's where they shared with my parents that look. He's been in a snowboarding accident, and   Speaker 1 ** 08:17 he's in a coma. Even if he comes out of his coma, there's a good chance that he's probably not going to be able to walk, talk or eat on his own again. And because my mom stopped the doctors and didn't let that information get through to me in any way, what it allowed me to do was just get up every day, figuratively and literally, and treat it like any of the situation.   Speaker 1 ** 08:47 So a month I was in the in the coma, partially induced coma, for three weeks. I really don't remember a month, because it was a partially induced coma,   Nick Prefontaine ** 08:58 as I said.   Speaker 1 ** 09:01 So a month after my accident, those are where my kind of my synapses and my my brain started firing. So I those are where my first memories start. And initially, I was transported to the third floor of the rehab hospital in Boston, and that's where I began my journey. The third floor was reserved for the most critical of cases, and that was me at that point. I couldn't walk, I couldn't talk, I couldn't feed my I couldn't do anything, couldn't feed myself, couldn't do anything, and the only thing that I could do was sit up in bed for eight minutes at a time, supported by three nurses, and even then, I was sweating profusely, like I had just ran a marathon. So it was definitely a long.   Speaker 1 ** 10:00 Ahead of me, and I had to, I had to build up my strength slowly, slowly but surely. And it was right around this time that I started,   Speaker 1 ** 10:13 although we're Yeah, it was unknowingly that I started to utilize a system, and that's the same system that I teach to this day   Speaker 1 ** 10:27 in my in my keynote talks for brain injury associations, and also working one on one with individuals that are going through trauma, that's the step system. So Michael, Step is an acronym. It stands for support. Make sure that you have the support of your family and friends right from the beginning, and this is going to have you falling back on relationships that you built prior to your setback. T is trust, trust that once you take your first step, your next step is always going to be available to you. And this this also is about trusting that voice that we all have inside, inside of ourselves. Call it what you want, God, the universe, your inner voice. We all have that voice, but so many of us don't listen to it. So it was very early on my recovery, when I was transported to that rehab hospital in Boston, that I started to listen to that inner voice. So this was before I could talk. I was still unable to talk. I was in a wheelchair. I couldn't walk and I overheard my parents talking and conferring with the doctors, and they would meet them every week to say, all right. So they would, for instance, they would say to the doctors, what do we have to do this week to make sure Nick makes a full recovery? I heard in the back of my head, no, you're going to run out of the hospital. So then running out of the hospital became our common goal and what we were shooting for.   Speaker 1 ** 12:14 So I always like to illustrate that point, because that's that goes right along with trust. You have to get to trust that voice, that that you have inside of you, within support. If I could take a step back within support,   Speaker 1 ** 12:31 it's important. One of the main things that I talk about in step the ebook, which, at the end, I'll give your listeners a way they can download the whole step system, step the eBook for free. One of the things I talk about in there is within support, is that you have to make sure you have an advocate with you at all times. That advocate for me during the day doesn't have to be   Speaker 1 ** 12:59 however, for me, it was my parents. So my mom would be with me every day, going to every therapy and doctor's appointment with me. She also had her parents, who would join, joined her several days a week to help, help break it up. Then at night, when,   Speaker 1 ** 13:21 when it was time at night, my mom would switch off with my dad, and my dad would come in and spend nights at me.   Speaker 1 ** 13:30 The night said he couldn't be there because he had to travel for work and everything. The night said he couldn't be there. I would have an uncle, a grandfather or someone come and spend the night with me as well. So this was so important, because I had an advocate with me at all times to really, really it, it helped things in that. And I said, this is going back, but it's really not going back because it it flows right into energy. So maintaining our E is energy. Maintaining our energy allows our body's natural ability to be able to heal itself. Medication has the potential to get in the way of that. So I needed a lot of drugs and medication to be pumped into me, rightfully so, to help keep me alive, modern medicine saved my life. However, after my accident, I had to make sure that I wasn't just constantly the doctors or the nurses or the hospital staff wasn't constantly medicating me and Michael. This also comes right around the time that it was very early on my recovery, a month after my accident.   Speaker 1 ** 14:48 I always like to share this story, because I was so as I said, my my dad or my grandfather. I think it was my grandfather in this case, was spent.   Speaker 1 ** 15:00 In the night with me, and this was before I could talk. So I got up in the middle of night and I had to go the bathroom. So I tried to   Speaker 1 ** 15:10 call his name and get his attention, wake him up. Well, he wouldn't wake up. So I managed to put the hospital bed down and hobble to the bathroom, use the bathroom and then make it back into bed. Nothing happened. However, the hospital staff found out the next day, and they freaked out. They're like, we can't have this liability. He can't be doing this. And what we're going to do before bedtime, we're going to give him this many cc's of this medication, that many cc's of this other medication, and that should calm him down for bedtime, so that he's able to sleep and we don't have this happen again. And my mom said to them, No, you're not just ask him not to do that again. So they asked me not to do that, and I made sure not to do it again, and I didn't have any problem. However, if I didn't have an advocate with me at all times the hospital, just to make their jobs easier, I'm not, I'm not gonna suck in on here, they would've, they would've just medicated me, yeah.   Nick Prefontaine ** 16:22 So   Speaker 1 ** 16:24 with that, Michael, I will take it. So if you have any questions about that,   Michael Hingson ** 16:28 well, so you have support, trust, energy, and what's the P?   Speaker 1 ** 16:34 The P, I'm glad you asked. Is persistence, okay, so persistence, once you take your first step, keep getting up every day and take your next step, no matter how small. By continuing to move forward every day, you are building an unstoppable momentum, right? And they were long days. They were long days for me in the inpatient rehab in the rehab hospital in Boston, I would get up. I would usually, especially in the beginning, need help. Physical therapists would have to teach me how to shower again.   Speaker 1 ** 17:12 If you can picture that I had to, I had to learn like something as simple as the water comes before the soap. Like I when I say I had to relearn everything. I truly mean everything. I have no memory how to how to do anything. Yeah, so I would have that. Then I would have, I would get breakfast, and then have my first sessions of physical occupational and speech therapy, and after which we broke for lunch. And it's really interesting, because it was at one of these lunches in between my therapies   Nick Prefontaine ** 17:48 that I had a moment.   Speaker 1 ** 17:51 This is kind of the only moment that I can point to where   Nick Prefontaine ** 17:57 I had any doubt,   Speaker 1 ** 18:01 and I always like to illustrate this, because we all have doubts we're human, Me and Me included in that. So I was in a wheelchair, and I had my lunch in front of me, and after I finished lunch, I was just looking over my situation in the wheelchair and everything. And I turned to my mom and I said,   Nick Prefontaine ** 18:26 Am I ever going to be able to walk again?   Speaker 1 ** 18:29 And she goes, of course, you are. That's what we're doing here. So you can get everything back and we can go home.   Speaker 1 ** 18:35 So what this allowed me to do is one have like, have the confidence that, oh, okay, all right, good. It was, it was like a lapse for me, yeah, and it just allowed me to to keep going and keep taking that next step. So let's go back to the original injury. So the injury for you, did you have broken bones or anything, or was it primarily just a brain injury? Yeah, I actually joke about this, because people say, Oh, my God, you must have had a broken arm, broken leg. I drank a lot of milk.   Nick Prefontaine ** 19:10 I love cereal at the time,   Speaker 1 ** 19:13 so I didn't have any broken bones. I just had a traumatic brain. Traumatic brain injury, right? So when you essentially went out of your body, you you realize you had two choices. Whereas Was anyone talking to you? Did you hear a voice that helped you realize you had one of two choices to make? Or, how did that what happened? So that's actually, I'm glad you asked that question, because that's actually something that I wasn't conscious of. I didn't I didn't know in the moment, and I didn't even know that years into the future. It was only within the last few years that I've been working one on one with one of my coaches. I have several coaches, but one of my coaches, I really.   20:00 Really,   Speaker 1 ** 20:01 I really term her, or I describe her as an energy coach.   Speaker 1 ** 20:07 She really helps me get quiet and work through things, whatever I'm dealing with. That was one of the things when we were going deep within that we were able to uncover, because she reflects back to me what she's picking up in my field. So that's one of the things that we're able to uncover. I don't have a conscious memory on that, but joy was the one that was able to reflect that back to me,   Speaker 1 ** 20:39 that that's what happened. So I don't have a conscious memory of that. However, it came back to me that   20:47 that's what happened.   Speaker 1 ** 20:50 So as you were recovering, Did Did you have a voice inside you that was talking with you, that you communicated with? Did you have discussions, or that, did a voice direct you? Or what? Other than that voice in the back of my head, that it was a pretty strong voice at the time, it was knowing you're going to run out of the hospital, that that was really my that was really my guiding force throughout my my recovery,   Speaker 1 ** 21:20 really what I was working towards every day, which it was why it was part of my motivation for getting up every day, doing that, doing the physical occupational speech, then having lunch, and then I didn't finish that thought I actually, after lunch, went back to therapy. I had double session. So I had again, physical occupational and speech therapy. And then even after that, I would be doing extra weights, extra exercises and routines that were going to help me get to my common goal, which was running out of the hospital. And we, when I say, We myself and my parents made sure that everyone, my therapist, nurses, doctors, they all knew my goal, which was to run out of the hospital. So we asked them, Is there any what are the extra exercises that Nick can be doing that that's going to get him to his common goal, of running out of the hospital faster. So if you, if you fast forward a little bit. Michael, I was, I was in my conscious memories is I was in inpatient rehab, in the rehab hospital for a little less than 60 days, and a little less than 60 days, I realized my common goal, which was running out of the hospital. And after running out of the hospital, it wasn't like my work was done. I had to continue to go to outpatient therapy for physical, occupational and speech therapy, albeit not double sessions, but I had to do that physical occupational speech therapy five days a week, along with being tutored all summer long in order to continue on to high school with the rest of my classmates. And are you able? Yeah, go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say the looking back on it, it's, it's a little surreal, but   Speaker 1 ** 23:28 it was only 18 months after finishing my rehab, recovering from my snowboarding accident and being in a coma for three weeks and having to learn how to walk, talk and meet again that I got my start in real estate, and that was because I picked up a book off of my dad's shelf in his library that was Cash Flow Quadrant by Robert Kawasaki. Now I grew up. I grew up my family. I grew up in a family real estate. Like, like a real estate family. My dad was a builder when I was younger, then he was in a realtor, then an investor, and then, like all, all throughout my life, he was always in real estate, always doing something. So I picked up that book   Speaker 1 ** 24:18 in a summer, only 18 months after I finished my outpatient rehab, and at the time, he had a real estate he had a real estate investment company, and   Speaker 1 ** 24:31 I approached him and I said, All right, I want to, I want to get like, I want to help. I want to, like, get started on this book. It really has me thinking so was right around this time that when I approached him, it was right before I got my driver's license, right as I was getting my driver's license. So   Speaker 1 ** 24:52 right around that time, they were playing with the idea of having bird dogs go and knock on Pre Foreclosure doors or.   Speaker 1 ** 25:00 Or in other words, homeowners that have received the notice of default letter from the bank, meaning that they have missed a few payments all the way up to, I mean, 10 or 12 payments, and the bank still hadn't foreclosed on the home.   Speaker 1 ** 25:15 So I would get in the beginning. When I first started this, I had no formal training. They they just said, Hey, here you go to this website to get to find out where these are.   25:29 Then   Speaker 1 ** 25:32 you knock on the door and you say this script. Then if no one's home, you leave this letter so that that was pretty much the only the direction that I got. So I had to go to school during the week because I was only 16.   Speaker 1 ** 25:50 Unfortunately, I would, I would have liked to be working all the time, but I had, but I had to go to school. So the only times that I had to do this was on the weekends. And I would pick one day per week, either a weekend or a holiday, and I would go and knock on these doors. And in the beginning, like I said, I got, I received no training, so I just got, I had a script, and I'll leave behind the leave. And I would try to set up meetings for our investor to meet with them about the following week about potentially buying their home.   Speaker 1 ** 26:27 However, in the beginning, I didn't see a lot of success. I got a lot of doors, as you can imagine, slammed in my face because I had no strategy, no tact whatsoever. I would basically rush up to the door and say, Hey, hi. I'm Nick Prefontaine. With Prefontaine, I forgetting what the company was called at the time. I'm here to help you out of your unfortunate situation. And as you can imagine, I get a lot of doors slammed in my face,   Speaker 1 ** 26:58 and rejection is not a bad thing. I was just able to learn from that. So then, shortly after starting my dad sent my cousin Mike and I out to California to shadow the number one person in the country that was having success for these Notice of Default doors, door knocking these people, and once I saw him and how his strategy, how much nuance and like, how scripted every part of his routine was. I was like, oh my god, light bulb went off. Um, because he was, like, going up, knocking on the door, doing a light, friendly knock, like just a neighbor from down the road. Then he would take a few steps back. They answer the door. Say, Hey, not sure I have the right address. Can you confirm something for me? And you would show them their clip his clipboard. And once they saw their name on the list, they would light up and just tell him what happened, what they were doing to fix this situation, or let's be candid, it was 2000 2006   Speaker 1 ** 28:10 2007 so what they weren't doing about the situation,   Speaker 1 ** 28:15 and it really made things easier. And then he was able to book follow up meetings for the following week. So once I saw that, I instituted that, once I got home, and then I started seeing a lot of success. And in these areas, in these cities where I door knock during high school, we own properties for years, even after I graduated high school. And then after I got out of high school, I started studying to get my get my real estate license, and I got my real estate license, a pretty great time to get your real estate license. March of 2008 Mm, hmm. So anyone, anyone that was around during that time. Knows that the financial markets and everything was was kind of coming down during that time and crashing. And it was, it was interesting. Michael, The first pre licensing course that I went to, that I went to take, or the first time, rather, I'm sorry that I went to take my test to get my real estate license. There were because I didn't pass on the first time. It took me a few times, but so the first time I went, there's probably 25 people in the room with me taking the test. The second time I went, only a few weeks later,   Nick Prefontaine ** 29:42 there there was really, like 10,   Speaker 1 ** 29:46 maybe closer to 15. And the third time that I went and took it, because it took me three times to pass my real estate licensing test, they i.   Nick Prefontaine ** 30:00 Yeah, there was one other person   Speaker 1 ** 30:03 in the room. Yeah, there was one other person in the room. So as you can imagine, it was a sign of the times, for sure. And   Speaker 1 ** 30:12 I was a, I was a realtor for a full, full time realtor, helping buyers and sellers for six years, like that was my primary and only source of income. Then in 2014   Speaker 1 ** 30:28 my dad approached me about he was an investor, and he was buying homes like acquiring homes creatively so without signing personally for loans or without using big investor down payments or any of his money. So he is acquiring them creatively,   Speaker 1 ** 30:51 just to name a few, with like with owner financing. So buy if they didn't have any debt on the property, you would buy the home with owner financing and make principal only payments. A second way that he was acquiring them was   Speaker 1 ** 31:10 you would close on them subject to their existing loan. And I'm just trying to keep it high level, keep it basic. The third way is, if there was a loan, like, for instance, if there was a loan in place,   Speaker 1 ** 31:23 he would buy it with a just a lease purchase agreement. And in all cases, taking over responsibility for maintenance, repair and upkeep over the duration of his agreement. And they were usually anywhere from three to five years. And then once he got that, he came to me and said, Hey, would you be able to help me with the marketing of these properties? Because I'm getting all these deals, I'm getting all these properties under contract, and I can't do two things at once, so I can't continue to get properties and market the property. So will you be able to help me with the marketing of the properties? And I was reluctant at first, but I finally came around the idea that I could help him, right alongside being my business as being a realtor and marketing all the properties turned into, oh, shoot, now we need help with handling all the buyer inquiries and the interest that's being generated off this marketing. Will you be able to help me with, with the with the buyers, and fielding all the buyer calls and inquiries and everything like that. So then, over the course of 13 months, my income shifted where I was maybe making five or 10% with him as an investor, and 90% of my income was coming as a realtor. Over 13 months, because of the evolution of the business, my income shifted where it didn't even make sense for me to keep my license, and in January 2016 after I received my last commission check, I let my real estate license go and joined him full time as an investor   Speaker 1 ** 33:19 and working one on one with the buyers   Speaker 1 ** 33:23 that has morphed into working with not only doing our deals and our properties,   Speaker 1 ** 33:31 it also and capital encapsulates working with associates that we have all over The country to do these same types of creative deals, so buying homes with with low or no money down, and then exiting them on a rent to own agreement.   Speaker 1 ** 33:53 So that's, that's what's really developed in the process. And it's pretty exciting. And then if I could, if I could take a step back, because   Speaker 1 ** 34:04 during that time frame, so back, if you go back to 2012 Michael, I developed, I developed an issue with my voice, and I couldn't really figure out what was going on. And I would go to all the I went to my, my, my, what is it called primary care physician, and he checked me out, evaluated me, did a full physical on me. He's like, No, I don't see anything wrong. You're fine. And I was like, something's not right. So I kept looking and I kept being referred. I went to analogous, kept being referred to these different doctors, but a year after looking for answers, I was finally referred to   Speaker 1 ** 34:49 a voice specialist in Boston at Mass, eye and ear. His name was Dr song, and there are only 35 of these voice.   Speaker 1 ** 35:00 Specialists in the country or on the continent. I was, I was confused the two, but, but I think in the country, there are only 35 of these boys specialists. And after looking for almost a year for an answer, and no one able to give me an answer, I was, I was so blown away that immediately Dr song walked in into the room, heard me speak, and right away, not only goes, oh that,   Speaker 1 ** 35:31 yeah, we deal with it all the time. Go to the front desk and get scheduled for a botox injection in a couple weeks, and if there was a camera on me, Michael, my mouth was like on the on the floor. I was absolutely blown away, because here I was. I had all this anxiety built up, and I was, I don't know, I don't like that word. I had all this   Nick Prefontaine ** 35:57 worry,   Speaker 1 ** 35:59 not worry. It was, I'm looking, I'm searching, I'm looking for the word. It's anxiety. I just don't love that word. I don't know it was. I had all this like pent up. I was just looking everywhere, and I couldn't get an answer. So it could be anxiety, I'm not sure, or concern, but concern, yeah, so I, I was just, like, melted I, like, melted off me when he did that, because   Speaker 1 ** 36:30 it really, it put me so at ease. And so what was the issue? Oh, it was a I had, I had some, I had a lot of tension in my throat. It was, it was basically like, it was hard to get the words out, so that's how I would sound. But to me, I felt fine inside, so I was like, Oh, I don't get why my voice is sounding like that. So what did the Botox do? Well, what it did. I actually can relate this back to my accident, because during my recovery from my accident and having to learn how to talk again, I knew what I wanted to say up here, it was clear, Isabelle up here,   Speaker 1 ** 37:13 then I just couldn't get the words out, like they just couldn't come whereas then this was a little bit different. Same thing, I knew what I wanted to say. It was clear in my head. However, just coming out, I just couldn't get the words out. And what it was was   Nick Prefontaine ** 37:36 they don't know what. He didn't want to label it.   Speaker 1 ** 37:40 He said he doesn't want to put a label on it, because in all my research and looking for answers and everything, I really resonated with something in a community, a group called   Speaker 1 ** 37:56 just for, it's, um, I'm sorry, dysphonia International. And at the time, they were called National spasmodic dysphonia association. So spasmodic dysphonia is like it basically, it's just a voice issue.   Speaker 1 ** 38:15 So now that it's now that it's worked its way out of my system, I don't even know if it's if it's that, or if it's a combination of that with muscle tension, because for me, now, it's out of my system. As as you can tell here, I've, I've been doing quite a bit of talking, and there, there's no issue. So I don't, I fortunately don't have an issue with my voice anymore,   Michael Hingson ** 38:44 and the last Botox injection I had to receive was February 13 of 2020, okay, so that's been over four years, which is pretty cool. Yeah, let me ask you this question. So you had clearly a very serious injury.   Michael Hingson ** 39:05 How did that injury affect you in terms of what you do and the commitment to do what you do and how you feel about the world? Oh, I love the question, the   Nick Prefontaine ** 39:22 so there has always been,   Speaker 1 ** 39:26 there has always been this voice in in the back of my head. So after I got out of after I ran out of the hospital and went through all my outpatient rehab, and really, once I finished and graduated school, graduated high school,   Speaker 1 ** 39:43 I've always kind of had this voice in the back of my head that's been telling me that whatever I'm being successful in, whether it's sales, real estate, anything   Speaker 1 ** 39:55 that voice has always been saying, Yeah, that's great, but what you really.   Speaker 1 ** 40:00 Need to be doing is helping individuals through their trauma and to be able to thrive with the rest of their lives. And I've really always   Speaker 1 ** 40:14 kind of unknowingly unconsciously gravitated towards people that have had a setback or a life challenge, and it's been for the fact that whenever something happens, whether it's an accident or a sudden illness or a sudden health thing, that that sets people back. Anyone who knows me and my story, they always say, Oh, if you talk to Nick, you have to talk to Nick. And I've always helped them through their trauma, their life challenge or trauma, and help them get through and then thrive with the rest of their lives. And I've throughout the years, Michael, I've always, I've always unknowingly, unconsciously share this step system with them to help them realize just that to get through their trauma and thrive with the rest of their lives. It wasn't, it wasn't until,   Speaker 1 ** 41:15 wasn't until a little bit late more recently, so was back in September of 2019   Speaker 1 ** 41:23 that someone approached me, and I've I've been fortunate. I've had the ability, because of our our real estate coaching and mentoring business, that I have with my family, with my dad and my brother in law, that I've always had the opportunity to do a little speaking do tell my story from stage at our events. And we've been having events since 2016   Speaker 1 ** 41:55 so I've always, I've always been blessed where I've I've at least had that opportunity to get up and share my story.   Nick Prefontaine ** 42:04 However, that's   Nick Prefontaine ** 42:07 that's only been 1515,   Speaker 1 ** 42:10 maybe 20. Maybe the Max would be 25   Speaker 1 ** 42:15 minutes that I've been able to share my story. Then someone who saw me speak at our at our event, our qls event. We call it the qls Quantum Leap systems event   Speaker 1 ** 42:29 in September. We have another one coming up here in September, but someone that saw me speak in 2019 at at that approach me,   Nick Prefontaine ** 42:40 and she said,   Speaker 1 ** 42:43 I love your story. Love the love the way that you you shared it. If you're ever looking to fine tune your message and bring it to another level so you're able to impact and affect the most amount of people possible, let me know, and I can introduce you to a few mentors and coaches and speaker bureaus and help you get started.   Speaker 1 ** 43:13 She made it clear she wasn't, wasn't trying to steal me away from my dad or our family business. But if I ever, if I ever wanted to explore that. So at the time, I, at the time, I was still dealing going through the final throws of my voice issue, as I said, the last treatment that I got was February 13 of 2020,   Speaker 1 ** 43:38 and I still wasn't ready. I was still I still had a few more hurdles to go through, a few more injections to get and I wasn't ready. However, I always held on to her card, and   Speaker 1 ** 43:55 I finally reached out to her in May of 2021, so one.   Speaker 1 ** 44:03 Then I set a book. I said, Art, I'm ready.   Speaker 1 ** 44:07 Who should I talk to? How do I get started about that offer that you offer me 18 months ago, and   Speaker 1 ** 44:16 she introduced me to Tricia, who has Tricia Brooke, who's become a friend and mentor of mine, and ever since she made that introduction and I had that first call with Tricia three years ago, a little over three years ago, there has been no voice in the back of my head. Michael, so what that's evidence of to me is that I'm doing exactly what I was put on this shirt to do well. And so do you still do real estate, or are you now doing more coaching and so on and speaking full time? So I I'm still involved in our I have the the good fortune.   Speaker 1 ** 45:00 In, I have the ability to do both. So I'm still doing real estate and also, and this is interesting about the the time frame not to say   Speaker 1 ** 45:11 kind of Whoa, look at me really out. This is just to   Nick Prefontaine ** 45:17 share the   Speaker 1 ** 45:21 kind of the importance and how far a mentor or a coach can take you. That's why I like to share this story. So   Speaker 1 ** 45:31 as I said, I only spoke for maybe 1520 maybe 25 minutes max, before I before I met Trisha and now I give keynotes to brain injury associations and other organizations that support people that are going through trauma, whether it's a trauma life challenge or otherwise. I give 4550 and 60 minute keynotes. Whereas before her, I would, I was only speaking for 1520, 25 minutes max. So   Speaker 1 ** 46:09 I, I always like to share that, because it just drives a point home the importance of a mentor,   Michael Hingson ** 46:16 right? Well, so you, you teach the step system. How do you do that? What? What is the process to teach that? Because it seems very intellectual and so on. But so, how do you teach step?   Speaker 1 ** 46:31 So step is really, it's about applying the step system. So within, within step, there's, a bunch of different bullet points, if you will, about like one of those. One of those for support is make sure that you have your advocate right from the beginning. And this doesn't, this doesn't necessarily have to be a family member. That's why people always hear the word family and they try to latch on to that. It can be anyone, it can be a neighbor, it can be a co worker that's always been there, always been around and looking, looking to help you out. But it has to be someone who will be an advocate, yeah, exactly right, someone, someone who's around, always, always looking to help you. So that's one of the things I talk about within step and it's really as far as the step system. It's really helping them to apply the step system to their life and their situation. Now I do have, I do have one thing which is in addition now the ebook step, which is going to teach you, I'll give you at the end step, the ebook gonna teach you all about support, trust, energy and persistence. That's free, and that's really a great way to take take your first step today. Then after you go through that, if you're looking to kind of bring it to another level, I have step the video course, and that's really that's only $37   Speaker 1 ** 48:13 and what that entails is for each Letter,   Speaker 1 ** 48:18 so support, trust, energy and persistence for each letter. Uh, there's a coaching video from me that's going to walk you through how you go about applying the step system to your life, your setback, your trauma, your situation, and allow you to move forward. Each letter also comes with a workbook and coaching videos and emails from me, which is going to have you have me continually in your corner. So that's the that's really the steps. It's the free,   Nick Prefontaine ** 48:59 no pun intended.   Speaker 1 ** 49:02 It's that that's the that's kind of the process is the ebook, then step the video series, which is only $37   Speaker 1 ** 49:14 then after you go through that, then we can, if you're still interested in working together, we can jump on the phone to kind of uncover and discuss what it would be like working together, one on one. And I usually do one on one clients for either three or six months, depending on your situation. You started something called common goal. Tell us about that.   Speaker 1 ** 49:40 Common goal is alright. So really, everything that   Nick Prefontaine ** 49:47 I've been able to kind of uncover   Speaker 1 ** 49:51 from my recovery, and that includes the step system,   Speaker 1 ** 49:56 was because of my mentor, Tricia Paul.   Speaker 1 ** 50:00 Pulling it out of me when we were 21 together. So if I can take you back, I know, I know I talked about since I had that first initial call with Trisha, I told you that there's been no voice in the back of my head. Well how that call went. I shared my goals with her and the impact that I was looking to make with her. And I said, Do you think that's possible? And she said, absolutely. I said, Okay, what do you recommend? She said that I recommend the speaker salon, which is and I said, What's the speaker salon? She said, Well, you commute to New York City for six weeks in a row. So for five weeks you get to work on your eight to 10 minute talk, and then on the on the sixth week, you perform it in front of influencers, decision makers, event organizers, TEDx organizers, people who can book you to speak,   Speaker 1 ** 51:05 so that that's what I think. That's what she told me she thought I should do. I said, All right, well, what? What is that? And she said, that's 25,000   Speaker 1 ** 51:13 i i said, yeah, yes, absolutely that. And I made the commitment right there and that I wanted to do that, because I saw   Speaker 1 ** 51:24 it was a it was a wholehearted yes for me, and it was a wholehearted yes because I knew it was a part of my path, part of my calling, to be able to tell my story From stage in front of individuals, and also help individuals that are going through trauma. So I said, Yes, did that? Completed that. Then during the speaker song, Michael, she approached me   Speaker 1 ** 51:53 and said that she works one on one with individuals to help them build out their speaker platform,   Speaker 1 ** 52:02 and I didn't I didn't even know what that was. I didn't even know what a speaker platform was. I didn't even know what that meant. However, from my experience working with her for several weeks in the speaker salon, I just knew this was what I wanted, and what I wanted was to continue to   Speaker 1 ** 52:25 get her brain and her thoughts on on myself and and   Speaker 1 ** 52:33 my situation, so I can impact and and affect individuals. So I said, Yes. She said, that's 75,000   Speaker 1 ** 52:43 I said, Okay, well, you're gonna have to give me a week to kind of figure out where I'm gonna where I'm gonna get the money for that. So I didn't have 75,000 underneath my mattress. So what I did, I went and applied for financing, and six days later, I ended up sending her the funds. She was the one that helped me to launch common goal. So in January of 2022, working one on one with her,   Speaker 1 ** 53:16 was a six or seven month contract that was our one on one, more together. I would have a call with her once every two weeks, two or three weeks, and she was the one that really helped me launch common goal and uncovered the step system. Michael, as I was saying, she pulled it out at me to the point where she was asking me, all right, so   Speaker 1 ** 53:43 you got in the snowboarding accident, and then you ran out of the hospital. How'd you do it?   Speaker 1 ** 53:50 I said, I don't know. I just I did it. I got up every day and just kept working every day until I got to where I wanted to go. And she goes,   Michael Hingson ** 53:59 No, not good enough. Yeah, I agree with her,   Speaker 1 ** 54:04 how'd you do it? So she kept asking me, I think it went seven or eight layers deep. Her asking me, how did I do it to a point, Michael, where I was so frustrated, I was like, I don't know. Stop asking me that question, and   Speaker 1 ** 54:22 what came out of that, though, was the step system.   Speaker 1 ** 54:27 So the step system is what I teach to this day. And she also helped me to write several keynote talks, which, as I, as I share with you I'm now delivering for brain injury associations and other associations that support individuals that are going through trauma. So with, I'm sorry, go ahead.   Speaker 1 ** 54:52 I was just going to say without, without that introduction, uh, three years ago.   54:59 Um.   Speaker 1 ** 55:00 From Sharon. Sharon spanne was the one that introduced me to Trisha.   Speaker 1 ** 55:06 I wouldn't be or, who knows how long it would have take me, or if I be where I am today. So I'm very fortunate of that. So what is common goal?   Michael Hingson ** 55:19 Is it an organization. Is it? You know what? What is it?   Speaker 1 ** 55:23 Yeah, it. It's my company. So we support individuals who are going through trauma to thrive with the rest of their lives, very simply put. And as I said, we're doing, I'm doing a lot of speaking at brain injury associations and other associations that are supporting individuals that are going through trauma, sharing the step system, spreading the message, and also then that what comes out of that is working one on one, with   Michael Hingson ** 55:56 with individuals. Got it to thrive with the rest of their lives. Are you able to do that virtually, or is it only in person? Or how does that work?   Speaker 1 ** 56:08 That's a great question. So there is nothing like being in person, sure,   Speaker 1 ** 56:15 and dealing with someone one on one. However, the nature of the world, you can't you can't be there in person and flying around just to meet with people one on one. So it is something that that can be done virtually.   Speaker 1 ** 56:32 However, interspersed in there, I love there to be a person, if at all possible, a personal touch. That's always my my preference. And if there's some way we're meeting, we're either we meet up somewhere, there's some way that we can meet face to face and really develop that personal connection, that's cool. So   Michael Hingson ** 56:57 it, and I agree, it's always nice to be able to do things in person, it's so much better. But the the value of the world today, if you're able to do it, is to doing things virtually. Gives you the potential to to teach   Michael Hingson ** 57:14 to a wider, I don't want to say audience, because I think a lot of the teaching is probably one on one, but to a wider   Michael Hingson ** 57:22 group of people, but it's really exciting that you're you're doing it, and none of it would have happened if you hadn't gone through the injury. And I wonder if it would have happened if you had had a helmet on back at the injury.   Nick Prefontaine ** 57:41 This is always,   Nick Prefontaine ** 57:43 this is not a,   Speaker 1 ** 57:45 what should we call it? This isn't something I talk about all the time. However, what the doctor said, obviously,   Speaker 1 ** 57:55 a helmet versus not a helmet, like a helmet, you always, you always say, Yeah, helmets better for you. However,   Speaker 1 ** 58:02 the doctors said that because of the force with which my head hit the ice, that they don't, they don't even know how much difference a helmet would have made, but the goggles made a big difference. It would have, yeah, absolutely, it would have, it would have split right their opinion. I mean, who knows? Like, I don't know. We don't know. However, if I were to have the choice, I, I, I'd like a helmet,   Speaker 1 ** 58:35 as opposed to not everyone. So I'm a, I'm a huge advocate of helmets, like helmet safety. I just that's,   Speaker 1 ** 58:43 that's not something I talk about little known fact. So what   Michael Hingson ** 58:49 was it like? I'll ask this, and we've been doing this a while, but what was it like running out of the hospital? It was,   Speaker 1 ** 58:59 I can go right back to that day. Mm, hmm, I bet you can. So it was April, April 24 2003   Speaker 1 ** 59:08 and on that day I went to, I went, there was a, there was a pizza, there was a there was a pizza shop right next door to the hospital. So we walked. I had several goals. So running out of the hospital was the main goal. However, the food goal, like so I could swallow, like, swallow, right? Was a coke and a grinder. There you go, Coke because it was a soda and the bubbles irritate your throat, so it's not something you think about. However,   Speaker 1 ** 59:47 it wasn't like the soda was free flowing in the hospital. So that was always a goal of mine, a coke in a grinder for those non New Englanders out there. I.   Nick Prefontaine ** 1:00:00 Was a sandwich,   Speaker 1 ** 1:00:03 yeah, like, like, a turkey, a turkey sandwich. So that was always my   Nick Prefontaine ** 1:00:08 that was always my goal. I actually think it might have been a meatball, but,   Speaker 1 ** 1:00:13 well, I digress. I digress. So I remember that day we I walked over next door to the hospital with my physical therapist and my mom, and I can really, I can see the pizza shop, like walking in the door and getting that aroma and ordering and just realizing my goal. And then after that, I ran. After I came out, we came out for having lunch. I ran across the parking lot diagonally, and I raised my physical therapist, who was running backwards. I raced her. I don't even remember who won, but as you can see, that's a that's a really vivid memory for me. That was,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:01 oh, it was amazing. And like, it like I shared, it wasn't, wasn't like my work was done. I had to, you know, continue to work. But that that was a big day for sure. Well, Nick, this has been remarkable in a lot of ways, and definitely inspiring. And clearly, you are an unstoppable person by any standard. And I'm glad that we got to have this connection, and we got to talk about this. And you tell the story, I think it's an important story. I keep thinking about your parents, who were, as you point out, very strong advocates. I had the same situation, because when it was discovered I was blind, my parents were told to send me off to a home, and my parents refused, and it was because of their advocacy that I developed the attitudes that I did about life, and clearly that is very much the same for you, whether it was Your parents or you had a, probably a larger support system in a lot of ways than than I did initially. But still, the bottom line is that you had the advocates, and that is extremely important. And I agree with you that anytime any of us are are different,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:17 or are facing any kind of situation, having advocates is extremely important, and it's always good to find advocates to be part of our lives. Absolutely, absolutely, 100%   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:30 Well, I want to thank you for being here with us. We We did an hour without a lot of difficulty, just just like I said we would, and just like we talked about so I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank everyone for listening. Nick's story is incredible and amazing in so many ways, and clearly unstoppable. So you mentioned the ebook. Tell me about how people can get that. Yeah, absolutely. So what, uh, what we covered here was really just a 10,000 foot view of the step system, um, if they go to or when they go to Nick prefontaine.com,   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:09 forward slash step and spell Prefontaine, if you would. Yeah, sure, I'll spell the whole thing. Okay, hey, it's n, i, c, k, P, R, E, F, O N, T, A, I n, e.com,   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:27 forward slash, step, S, T, E, P,   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:33 they can download the whole step system for free, and In that they're going to learn all about support, trust, energy and persistence. And as I was saying earlier, it's a great first step, and they're going to be able to that will allow them to take that first step today,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:56 and if they want to then follow up and reach out to you and learn from you and so on. How do they do that?   Speaker 1 ** 1:04:04 They can also, there's a contact, there's a Contact button on the website. Well, right, yeah, right from the website they they should be able to, they should be able to do that, do that, but like or and like I was sharing earlier, the the steps would be to go through, keep saying that,   Speaker 1 ** 1:04:24 okay, would go, would go through step the ebook, then do step the video series, the video course, and then after, after you've gone through those so we're speaking the same language, then we can hop On the phone to determine what our what our work would be like together, one on one. And I'm assuming in the eBook, it also gives the contact information to reach out and go further. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So I'll include Well, super well, Nick.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:55 Thank you very much for being here, and I want to thank all of you who are listening.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:01 Watching, and if you're on YouTube watching, we really appreciate you being here and allowing us to invite you in, to be part of our family, and we want to become part of yours. I would really love it if any of you who would do so would give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to us. We value, we appreciate and value your ratings very highly.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:23 I'm sure that Nick would love to hear from you, and he is giving you ways to reach out to him. So please do that for me. I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me through email easily. At Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at, accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:41 so Michael h i@accessibe.com   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:43 or go to www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:50 and that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:55 and you can listen to all of our episodes if you're not listening to us somewhere else. But we would really love your thoughts and your opinions. Nick for you and all of you listening, if you know of anyone else who we ought to have on as a guest on unstoppable mindset, please let us know. Bring them on. Introduce us. We are always looking for guests, so I really value getting to meet more people, as I love to tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else who comes on the podcast, I'm not doing my job well, and I've had the value and the joy of getting to learn from so many people like Nick. So please let us know if you have any guests, we'd love to hear from you.   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:38 So again, Nick, thank you very much. We really appreciate you being here. This has been a lot of fun, and I appreciate your time, and we hope that you'll come back again and visit.   Nick Prefontaine ** 1:06:48 Thanks, Michael, I have a blast, and I can't wait to do it again.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:06:56 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Meet our guest this time Patti Oskvarek who, like many, got her first job while in high school working at a Derry Queen. It wasn't long before she became a manager. As Patti and I talk about her first managerial job and how the role of a manager has changed today Patti says that managers now are under so much more stress because they are required to do so much more with so much less support.   As we talk Patti explains that as she progressed from working at the Derry Queen to increasingly more demanding positions within the banking industry she didn't think much about nor did she have any real “Work-Life Balance”. She worked all day at the office and then came home to do more work at home. She did have a supportive husband, but even so the stress of not having balance in her life eventually caused her to have an ulcer.   As Patti tells it, she finally retired in her 50s and began working toward and becoming a work-life balance coach and Reiki Master. Today she even is a host on two different podcasts. Patti and I talk quite a bit about the concepts of work-life balance, leadership and how a coach can help people attain the balance sometimes they don't even know they want. We even talk a bit about just what a coach does and how he or she can help people who are willing to explore their own lives. I think you will enjoy this episode and come away with some new and updated ideas.       About the Guest:   Patti Oskvarek of Coaching for Inspiration with Patti. Patti is a Certified Professional Coach and Certified Master Coach specializing in Work-Life Balance and Leadership coaching, Reiki Master, and Podcaster. Patti inspires others to pursue their passions in life through their relationships, careers, business, and leadership development.  She became a Coach and Reiki practitioner to help people follow their hearts, use their talents, and live purposeful, balanced, and fulfilling lives. With a unique approach to coaching, Patti has dedicated herself to helping others find passion, purpose, and confidence in all they do.  Her theory is that to find business success and know how to find happiness in other areas of life and learn the true meaning of work-life balance for yourself. Patti is committed to helping managers, supervisors and others become better leaders and live more purposeful, balanced lives outside work.   Ways to connect with Patti:   Website: https://coachingforinspirationwithpatti.com/coaching/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/coachingforinsp Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coachingforinsp Twitter: https://twitter.com/coachingforinsp  LinkedIn: Coaching for Inspiration with Patti- https://www.linkedin.com/company/coaching-for-inspiration-with-patti  YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLXTGfZ1hZqGaKJ24hfnyWA Building Better Relationships at Home and Work with Angela and Patti Podcast https://open.spotify.com/show/4rVQIdCNrMoU3gRhZsvLt9?si=0GsSNkccQo-TuG6JZWHM3g Exploring Life and Work with Patti - From Chaos to Calm Podcast https://open.spotify.com/show/70FztukC0x4anAWdhrGyc0?si=VDVqhUz0Qq-_kK8clj0vRw     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. Our guest today is Patti Oskvarek, and Patti is a person who specializes a lot in work life balance. She's a Reiki manager, our Master, and has a lot of information. I think that's going to be value of value to all of us. She is a coach that really works a lot in the whole area of work life balance. I'm really interested to hear a lot about that. I met Patti, as we have had a number of other guests come this way through podapalooza. This time it was the latest podapalooza in podapalooza 11, and it just seemed like Patti was a person we really needed to have an unstoppable mindset. And here we are. So Patti, I want to welcome you to the podcast, and thank you very much for being here.   Patti Oskvarek ** 02:15 Oh, thank you for having me. Michael, this is great. It'll be   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 fun. Yeah. Well, why don't we start, why don't you tell us a little bit kind of about the early Patti growing up and all that stuff.   Patti Oskvarek ** 02:29 So growing up, I grew up in Tucson, Arizona, and   Michael Hingson ** 02:34 I was an only child in the summer, yes,   Patti Oskvarek ** 02:37 very hot. And I was an only child, so I was very shy during my times of growing up and through life. And my first job, I worked in a Dairy Queen, and when I turned 18, I became a manager, and that's kind of how I started with management. And throughout my life, pretty much have been a manager or supervisor. And in my life, I didn't have work life balance. Work always seemed to come first and everything else came second. And as you know, Michael, that's not always a good thing, having work come first instead of having a personal life as well. So I had a lot of regrets because I had put work above other things that were important. So I became a coach to help others in leadership and work life balance, so that they can learn from my example and I wish I had had a coach when I was in leadership. And I've learned a lot through my life about working 24/7, and then eventually, what if work is gone? What are you going to do in your life, and but I have a family. I have two adult children and a husband and a cat. I love my cat, and I love my family, and I have five grandchildren. So throughout my life, it's been wonderful, and I love my family, and I've learned through the years of really trying to incorporate some work life balance so that you can live life to the fullest.   Michael Hingson ** 04:57 Well, tell me so how long have. Was it you were a manager of a Dairy Queen? What year was that?   Patti Oskvarek ** 05:04 That was in the 80s. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 05:07 so what was it like managing a Dairy Queen in the 80s? And what I'm really curious about is, if you can make the comparison, what was it like then, as opposed to what it is now, you must have visited Dairy Queens of relatively recent times, maybe not, but I'm just curious if you can can observe or comment on what it was like then and how it differs now.   Patti Oskvarek ** 05:33 Yes, so that was my first job, and it it was surprising, because most of the time I worked alone and didn't have really the interaction with the staff, other than, you know, between times of when they would come in and tell them what needs to be done and all that kind of stuff. So where I worked, it wasn't as busy in the winter time as it was in the summertime. In the summertime, I would work with the employees, but in the winter time, a lot of times I worked alone. So how is that different now? And the Dairy Queen that I worked at, all we had was ice cream, so that's why it was a lot different nowadays, you see how much different it is with, you know, the drive through and all the employees and and having all the different variety of products and services.   Michael Hingson ** 06:40 You think it's tougher to be a manager today because of all that? I   Patti Oskvarek ** 06:45 think so. I think you're under more stress and more responsibility Anya than it was in the past. Yeah and yeah. And then I moved on to banking, and then I moved on to government. So I had a variety of different different platforms that I worked on in different ways of doing things.   Michael Hingson ** 07:10 Well, it it is interesting. I think there's a lot to be said for with the way things are going that management and managing is is more stressful. And I suspect that if you went further up in the corporate structure of Dairy Queen, or anywhere that again, you would see that the the environment is putting more stress on the typical Dairy Queen manager because of all of the things that you're you're talking about, and then, in general, in a sense, management is more stressful because you're expected to do more and with less, with less. Yeah, and I think that's really a very important point. It's doing more with less. And I'm not sure corporate always gets that, which, again, goes back to what you were talking about in terms of work, life balance and dealing with that. Well, when you left Dairy Queen, what did you exactly go do?   Patti Oskvarek ** 08:10 I went into banking, and that was, yeah, and that was in the early 80s and 90s. And a lot of things happened throughout when I imagined that I was going to work for the bank for the rest of my life. That was my plan. Ever since I was a kid, I thought banking was where I wanted to go. So, you know, things happened in in the 80s and 90s with banking, it changed a lot. A lot of people were part time instead of full time, things were a lot different from when I started to when I left, and what it is today, I was actually somebody that would stand outside to get people to use the ATM and train them how to use it, and there was a lot of resistance at that time of using it, and now it's something that they use all the time. And as well as back then, you know, the technology wasn't like it is today, where you have an app. And so I started as a teller, and then I went to a branch operation supervisor in a very short time, and then at a young age, and I had employees that were older than me. And with the bank, you know, you worked a lot of hours. And I had a I had small children, so that was one of the reasons why I decided a friend of mine and a former supervisor of my manager, she had went to work for government, and she says, Patty, you should. Come to and I thought, Oh, that'll be a great way to have more balance in in my life and not working so many hours. So that's where I made the change, in the 90s, and I was fortunate enough to start working young and being able to retire in my 50s. So that was a good, good thing, but still, I struggled with the work life balance, putting work above other things that should have been important as well, like going to my children's baseball game or things like that that I couldn't do because I was working and taking vacations and things like that. I was putting things aside for work, and I was putting that pressure on myself.   Michael Hingson ** 11:04 What was that doing to family?   Patti Oskvarek ** 11:08 You know, I was fortunate that I had my husband. He, he would pick up the slack where I wasn't. But then, you know, I would be up at night, cleaning the house while the kids were asleep, I was still with, you know, I still came home at a decent hour, but I was always thinking about work and what needed to be done next, and those kind of things, what?   Michael Hingson ** 11:36 Well, so when you so eventually, I know we're skipping forward, but again, the job that you took up in the 90s was, what? Again, banking, yeah, so it was all   Patti Oskvarek ** 11:46 involved. And then I went, then I went into government, yeah, all right, so   Michael Hingson ** 11:51 when you retired in the in your 50s, why did you do that?   Patti Oskvarek ** 11:58 So I had that I could retire with 80 points, which means your age and your years of service. So I was able to do that, and I wanted to do something more. And that's where the coaching came in, is I went to school before I retired to prepare myself to get into coaching. So I had a plan, and that's what I teach people, is to have a plan of what you want to do in life and make it happen. So what got   Michael Hingson ** 12:38 you to the point of being such a strong advocate for the whole concept of work, like balance was there? Was there one thing that made that happen?   Patti Oskvarek ** 12:50 Yes, I think throughout my life, I realized that I needed to change my habits, and it affected my health. I had an ulcer in my 20 in my 30s. Excuse me, in my 30s, and that was a wake up call, because the doctor said I was in the hospital for five days, and the doctor said to me, you need to change something in your life that's causing you to have all of this stress, and that was my first wake up call of realizing I was putting so many other things in front of what I truly wanted in my life And what I wanted to do, and slowly changing it didn't happen overnight. It's still a struggle, and I want to help others so that they don't go through what I went through, and to help people realize there's more to life than work   Michael Hingson ** 13:58 so there wasn't like a real crisis that caused you to suddenly have an epiphany and decide, work, life, balance and so on, and coaching was so important, but it's something that you eventually or gradually came to.   Patti Oskvarek ** 14:13 Yes, I was at a networking meeting, and I was giving a presentation, and after the presentation, this lady came up to me because I was talking about leadership. This lady came up to me, and she goes, You should be a coach. And I, at that time, I didn't know what a coach was, didn't know what a life coach was. And and she goes, you're, you would be really, really good at being a life coach. So I started checking into what is that, and I realized, Oh, this is something that I could really help people. And I wish at the time I had somebody like that, a coach, a leadership coach, a work life balance coach, that could have helped me. Me throughout the certain challenges that I had in my career and in my life. So as I was learning about coaching, I felt this is really what I want to do. I want to help others as well as myself. I learned a lot through the coaching process and learning about coaching, it's, it's such an excellent thing to have in your life. What   Michael Hingson ** 15:34 was the process that you went through to become a coach? What? How did you learn? Or, what did you learn? How did it all kind of come about?   Patti Oskvarek ** 15:44 So this person that I knew that was an acquaintance of mine, she knew a business coach, and she put me in contact with her, and I asked her a lot of questions about coaching and how the process works. How? How do I be able to do this? And I was still working full time, and she put me, she suggested that I go to the international coaching Federation, I see f website and look for coaching schools. So that's what I did. I found a coaching school that was after hours or that worked with my schedule, so I could work during the day and get coaching training in the evenings or before work. So it was really flexible, and that's how I started on my journey of becoming certified as a coach. And there would be, sometimes I'd be five o'clock in the morning, I'd be doing my coaching class or things like that, or it'd be after seven o'clock in the morning, and the in the first coaching school that I went to was center for coaching certification, and then later on, when I got my master coaching, I went to world Coach Institute. So both of them were schools that were for people all over the world. So it had various hours that you could do your coaching certification, which worked for me at that time on my life.   Michael Hingson ** 17:38 So it was online.   Patti Oskvarek ** 17:40 Well, one was online, and we one was where it was on phone, and we would meet that way on the phone and do it that way as as well as as well as online. So there was different ways of doing it. It wasn't as during that time, the on online zoom wasn't popular as it is now.   Michael Hingson ** 18:16 Yeah, needless to say, that changed a lot, of course, during the pandemic. So when did all this happen? What? What year was this that you started coaching?   Patti Oskvarek ** 18:28 So, 2015 Okay, when I started? And, yeah, so it's been a while. That's That's why it wasn't as like today, where you do the Zoom calls and things like that, right? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 18:45 yeah. So a lot it was a lot more back in in those days, it was more by phone or in person, of course, with another option, yeah. Where did Reiki into it? Enter into it?   Patti Oskvarek ** 18:59 Reiki came into it because my husband and I had went to send out Sedona, and I had a friend that was a Reiki Master, so I used to go to her to help me, you know, to relieve stress and all of those things to relax. And I told my husband, why don't you go have a Reiki session? And he loved it. He kept asking me for like, a year and a half Patty, you need to learn how to do this. And he was my biggest person that really, wanted me to do Reiki, and that's how I got into Reiki. Was my friend that I knew, and then with my husband, because he wanted me to do Reiki on him. And so incorporating Reiki, it helps you relax. It's energy healing. It helps the body heal as well. Because. Because you're in a meditative state, and it really helps clients, because they're under so much stress that it helps relax them and stop their mind from running, you know, continuously, and they're able to come up with solutions, or just have their body relax and heal from all the stress that they're under, and that's how I incorporate Reiki into my coaching. Tell me   Michael Hingson ** 20:30 a little bit about how Reiki works, or what you do, if you would. Okay,   Patti Oskvarek ** 20:34 so Reiki, I I hover my hands over over the people's body, and I tell them to relax and just let go, and the energy flows through me into them. And some people can see colors. Some people can actually feel the heat coming onto their body. Everybody's different, and each session is different, but some people feel nothing. But it doesn't mean that the Reiki is not working, and even if it's 15 minutes, you can feel the difference. People feel so calm and relaxed and just feel relief from the Reiki sessions.   Michael Hingson ** 21:25 So is Reiki something that you mainly need to do in person? Is it something that you can do in some way virtually today? Yes,   Patti Oskvarek ** 21:36 yes, I do Reiki virtually. And what I do is I have one client that I do FaceTime with. I have another that, you know, zoom, and we meet, and either on FaceTime or zoom, I've even done Reiki off of pictures onto to my clients, and they can actually feel the Reiki going through their body. You don't have to do it. You don't have to do it in person. You can do it virtually,   Michael Hingson ** 22:17 which is kind of fascinating, and it's great that you can do that and still have a good, strong impact on people. So how do you work that into or integrate that into the other coaching that you do?   Patti Oskvarek ** 22:35 So for for me, I will talk about, you know, there's, I have different things. I have Reiki. They can sign up for Reiki. They can sign up for leadership coaching, work life, balance coaching. I use affirmations with them too, so they they can schedule me for what they would like if they want Reiki, if they want coaching.   Michael Hingson ** 23:04 So they're somewhat different, yeah,   Patti Oskvarek ** 23:08 but with Reiki, it really helps if you're struggling with something going on in your life and you just want you just need to relax a lot of times, some ideas come up, or solutions come up as well, just like coaching with asking questions and going down deep into the situation, the client always has the solution. They just need to get there to have that solution come up for them   Michael Hingson ** 23:44 well, so you you certainly bring a lot of skills and offer a lot of opportunity in doing all this, which is really kind of cool. Do you find that sometimes you can integrate Reiki into your leadership coaching or some of the other things that you do in terms of you use that to get people to relax and be more open. Or does that happen?   Patti Oskvarek ** 24:12 Yes, yes. So you can do the 15 minute Reiki session and then go into a coaching session, because they're relaxed, they feel good, they're ready to open up and be able to look at things maybe a little differently than They were in their stress mode.   Michael Hingson ** 24:40 Okay? Which, which certainly kind of makes sense. Do you think that you're now really doing what you were meant to do? Is this really your purpose in life? Do you think   Patti Oskvarek ** 24:54 I feel it is i feel that i. So it helps people, and it helps people become better leaders, better people in general, because of the fact that they're taking time for themselves, as well as learning skills and learning how to deal with things in different positive ways, and it helps them figure out how to handle things better, because they're less stressed and more open To making positive changes within themselves and to help manage things in a in a better way than they were before.   Michael Hingson ** 25:49 Do you encounter people when you first start who are looking for a coach or whatever, but when you start to talk about work life balance, they resist it and say, Oh no, I'm really fine. And that you you figure out ways to open them up and get them to consider new ideas.   Patti Oskvarek ** 26:08 Yes, a lot of times, you know, people don't believe in work life balance. And what work life balance is, to me, is you find business and personal success, you must know how to find happiness in other areas of your life and learn the true meaning of work life balance, what may be work life balance for me, will be Totally different. For you, we each have different life stages, goals and likes and aspirations and work life balance is a continuous thing that you do continuously. It's finding what you want in your life and what you don't want in your life and incorporating ways to get the things that you do want in life so that you feel good in your living a purposeful, balanced life outside of work.   Michael Hingson ** 27:13 We've been talking a lot about work life balance. Maybe what we really ought to do, though, is define it a little bit. So really, what is work life balance.   Patti Oskvarek ** 27:22 So work, life balance is what really means you want in life. So say that you want to spend more time with your children, or you want to spend more time at home or things like that. Balance isn't this perfect wheel. It's what is your priority or what you want. A lot of people that work, 24/7, they have no friends, they have nothing but work. So it's incorporating, okay, what do I want in my life. Do I want a hobby? Do I want to go on vacation? What do I want in my life, and how can I achieve it, and then incorporating that into your life so that you have something more than work?   Michael Hingson ** 28:17 What do you do with the person who just says, Well, I really enjoy just working 24/7 or working all the time, but I don't need any of the other stuff.   Patti Oskvarek ** 28:27 Well, then I'm not the coach for them, right? And but I'll talk to them, and we'll, we'll see why that is, or how they feel, but if they're not willing to want to have anything more in their life than work, then that's not I'm not the coach for them. Unless they want to be a better leader, then I'll help them with those skill sets.   Michael Hingson ** 29:02 With but does that. When you start to talk about leadership and so on, are you then able to work back into the discussion ever the whole concept of work life balance, so that they understand work is great, but you will, but you're not going to become your best leader if you don't spend some time doing other things or relaxing or learning about leadership, which you can't do when you're just supposedly leading people or working, yeah, right.   Patti Oskvarek ** 29:31 I think it's all about relationship and communication. Once they get to know you, once you you're coaching them, you can work those other things into the relationship. It's all about getting to know them, then getting to know you, and to help ask the right questions to get them to a place where they'll be open to work, life balance and. That does happen when you build relationships with others and that they know, like and trust you, and they start to become open to looking at things a little differently, especially when you start asking questions about, what do they want in life? What are they missing in life? Those kind of things to really open up. Oh, there is more to life than just work.   Michael Hingson ** 30:28 Maybe we should also approach it from the other standpoint. What to you, does work life imbalance mean? So   Patti Oskvarek ** 30:36 work life imbalance is when you have an unmanageable workload and deadlines and emails and texts and productive meetings that spill over to your personal life, which causes you overwhelm and also your employees overlap well and just working through those tasks and how to delegate and time management and things like that to help with the imbalance. And that happens a lot. People take on more and don't ask for help, and teaching those skills on how to ask for help so that things can be more manageable.   Michael Hingson ** 31:20 How would you define what it really means to be a leader? That's probably a relevant discussion to have when we talk about leadership coaching and we talk about people leading other people. What is a leader?   Patti Oskvarek ** 31:33 Well, a good leader, yeah, a good leader, to me, is someone that learns from their mistakes and use tools that enhance them, such as journaling or sitting in self reflection, and invite input from their employees and from others to come up with solutions and new ideas. A good leader listens with compassion and understanding and assists whenever possible, and is willing to stand out and be part of the solution so that they can help their goals and be very compassionate and listen to your employees, find out what's going on, build a relationship of trust. That is what a good leader is. To me,   Michael Hingson ** 32:21 trust is a very, extremely vitally important part of the process, and we oftentimes forget or just aren't really willing to deal with trust. One of the things that I say often about dogs is that dogs love unconditionally, and I think that is true, but dogs don't trust unconditionally. But the difference between a dog and a person, typically speaking, is the dogs are, at least, generally speaking, unless some incredible trauma happened to them, dogs are are open to trust and open to trusting, and you have to earn their trust, and they have to earn your trust. I think there's, there's nothing better than a two way trusting relationship between person and dog when that really happens. And I know that I when working with guide dogs, it's all about developing a trust. And I think it takes a good year to truly develop the trusting relationship. But trust is an extremely important part of it, and if you don't develop that, you'll never be able to to lead or or truly influence what is, what is going on in your life and and others.   Patti Oskvarek ** 33:40 Oh, I love that. I definitely agree. And if you make a mistake, say sorry and explain what happened in really opening up the communication with the person that you made the mistake with and learn from those mistakes. That's the most important thing. Reflect on it. What could I have done differently? And always keep that in mind when you're making decisions, really think it out. And there are times when you can't, and I understand that, but you're doing the best that you can, and you learn every day from those life lessons to be a better manager, a better leader, a better person, a better parent, a better spouse, all of those things. Each day you learn something new, and you continue on to do the best you can and to continue to be compassionate and empathetic to others. One of   Michael Hingson ** 34:48 the things that I would say about leadership and leading is that leaders have to work at really work at understanding the 10. Balance of the people who work for them or who they lead, and the part of the reason for that is there may very well be times that someone else is better suited to take the lead in a particular situation, and the good leader knows when to allow that person to excel and lead and take control, to deal with whatever comes along, and then the leader who is overall responsible can can then step back in when necessary. But Good leaders know when to give up leadership to those who are better talented and better suited for a particular situation than they Oh,   Patti Oskvarek ** 35:43 I definitely agree with that. It's so important to know who to give tasks to and not to micromanage. And what I found in leadership is they'll come up with some great ways to do things that you never thought of and to praise them for that it's really important to give people the chance to learn and expand and grow, and that's what a leader does. They help people see things about themselves that they didn't see within themselves, and   Michael Hingson ** 36:29 help them bring that gift out. Yes, I once attended a seminar conducted by an organization. It was a leadership seminar, and the person running it was long term president of the organization, and he asked a question on one night, and well, one night, the Saturday Night of the seminar, he said, What is the most important thing that he is president and All of us should be doing in the organization, and people talked a lot about the vision and the mission and other things like that. And he finally said, but that's not the most important thing. The most important thing that we have to do is look for the next president and leader of the organization, and His ego was such that he was willing to recognize that the time would come that he would need to retire and that someone else did need to take the reins of the organization, and that, in fact, did happen, But I thought it was a very profound statement on his part to say the most important thing we could be doing is looking for the next long term leader of the organization, because otherwise the organization's not going to survive.   Patti Oskvarek ** 37:53 Yes, that's so true, and helping your staff learn new things and to train them in a variety of things. And even in your position, does good for you, does good for them and does good for the organization. I always, I always trained my staff that if I left, and that's what I did, is they could, they could run everything without me there, and that's so important.   Michael Hingson ** 38:30 One of my philosophies when I was running a sales organization and being a sales manager and so on is I always said to employees, I'm not here to boss you around. I hired you because you convinced me that you could sell the product. But what you and I and it's an individual thing with each employee, what you and I need to do is to figure out how I can add value to what you do and enhance what you do to make you more successful. And not everyone got that   Patti Oskvarek ** 39:04 right. Yeah, it's very important, and that's very important, to learn how to communicate with each staff member. You're going to communicate differently with each staff member because they're different individuals, and they think differently, and they have different wants and needs. In being a good leader, you figure that out. There's going to be some people that want to move up, and there's going to be some people that just want to stay in the same job, but you help expand them in in them grow in the way they want to help in the company. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 39:46 yeah, and, and some people just want to stay in the job. They don't have the aspiration to become boss or whatever, and that's okay, but they certainly still have good talents that you want. To be able to help expand and integrate into the organization, right?   Patti Oskvarek ** 40:07 And and giving them new things to do and try, really opens up for them to feel successful and to figure out, oh, maybe this is what I want to do. Everyone's a leader. Even the people that don't want to be a leader, they're a leader in some way of what talents they have and how they show those talents, and how they work, and things like that. And a lot of people don't recognize that.   Michael Hingson ** 40:38 Tell me if you would something about your style as a coach, I think every coach and every person has different styles of doing things. So what's your style?   Patti Oskvarek ** 40:46 Well, as we talked about before, I'm unique in my leadership and work life balance coaching, because I incorporate Reiki and affirmations during my coaching session, and I love helping others find their passion and their purpose and the confidence and all that they do. And I coach the whole person, whether it's work and personal life, because both of them affect each other, and that's my unique coaching. Because when I start coaching somebody, we we first begin with one thing, and then eventually we figure out there's more that that's uncovered of what they really, truly want coaching on.   Michael Hingson ** 41:35 So as a as a coach, what is it you really do? I mean by that what really is the purpose of a coach when they're in when they're interacting with someone? So   Patti Oskvarek ** 41:48 a coach asks questions to help the person solve whatever they're wanting to solve, and by those questions, the person being coached has the answers and solutions, and they develop those solutions. As you ask those questions, it opens up things that they never thought about, and really comes to what is really going on and what they really want, and what they really want to achieve, and having an action plan to do it. If I just tell somebody, oh, this is the way you should do it, people aren't going to do it. They have to come up with that action plan within themselves to really invest in it and really want to do it, and that's where a coach comes in. Say, you have a struggle with an employee and you really don't know what to do, and just talking to somebody about it is so important because a lot of times, managers and supervisors and middle management don't have anybody to talk to. They're being squeezed from the top and the bottom right, and they feel like they have nobody to really share what's going on and at home, your your your spouse or your loved ones don't want to hear it, right? So a coach helps open up that communication and to come up with solutions to what that situation is, and to also be there to listen to listen to the person everybody wants to be heard. Lot   Michael Hingson ** 43:44 of truth to that. And one of the things that I read when I was studying up on on coaching and so on, was that very thing, you don't even necessarily have to have the answer, even though you think, Well, you may or may not even think you do, but you don't need to know the answer, at least initially, but it is all about asking questions and getting your client to explore Yes, and that is such a cool thing, and it is something that is as valuable in coaching as it is in teaching or Whatever you do, it's really important to get people to explore and figure things out for themselves. And you can guide but you can't give people the answers. It never works, right?   Patti Oskvarek ** 44:33 And when they come up with what they're going to do, or how they're going to approach the situation, or even practice how they're going to deliver it with your coach, it's much more successful because you really want to do it   Michael Hingson ** 44:51 well. Coaching has certainly gotten a lot more popular over the past, oh, 10 to 20 years. It certainly isn't something that we. Used to hear a lot about when you were back at Dairy Queen and all that coaching wasn't something that people talked about, much less work life balance. So we've, we've come a long way. I would think,   Patti Oskvarek ** 45:14 yes, we have. Like I said, when I first heard of coaching, I didn't know what it was.   Michael Hingson ** 45:22 It's a growing industry, and for people who do it and do it well, it's a it's a very successful industry, and I'm sure that you would say it's financially successful, but even more important, it's successful because you are rewarded when you see your clients succeed and become better than they were. Can you share any kind of stories of some of someone you coached and kind of where they started and where they ended up being a whole lot better than they were? You don't need to obviously mention names or anything, but just curious, if you have a story that comes to mind, yeah.   Patti Oskvarek ** 45:59 Okay, let me so there's a client that he wants work life balance, and he also wants to write a book. So we worked on incorporating action to be able to find the time to write the book, and to continue to write the book, and be motivated about writing the book because he has something important to share with the world, and to keep that up, and to not let go of that dream and to work through those fears of failing not to write the book or complete the book. So that's one way of incorporating work life balance into something that you want to achieve, and that's what I worked with him on. He's continually writing his book, and when he and I help motivate him and help him continue to know that that's something important for him that he wants to do and complete. So that's kind of a situation with the work life balance is okay? How am I going to write this book and get it completed by the time the deadline and all of those things? So it's incorporating action and actually following through with it and making sure that the book is being completed.   Michael Hingson ** 47:41 It's not the easiest thing in the world to write a book, but on the other hand, I think that most everyone has stories to tell. They may not know how to write a book, but they probably have the contents of a book inside of them somewhere.   Patti Oskvarek ** 47:59 I definitely agree, and it's it was working through some of the fears of what had happened in the past, of not being able to finish the book, so getting past those fears, and getting past everything, and being dedicated to time management and all the things of getting and writing that book.   Michael Hingson ** 48:23 So is he still working on it, or has he written his book? Yeah, he's   Patti Oskvarek ** 48:27 still working on it. It's a current client. But I wanted to kind of give an example of how you work, work, life balance into something else that you want to   Michael Hingson ** 48:36 achieve. How's the book coming along? Good. He's   Patti Oskvarek ** 48:40 really motivated, and he's spending time each day writing the book, so it's coming along.   Michael Hingson ** 48:48 That's exciting. Any idea when, or does he have a goal as to when he wants to have it completed?   Patti Oskvarek ** 48:55 He wants to have it completed by next year. Okay, so he's on the right track. It's writing all of his ideas and writing it, and then you got to go through the other stuff that's after it, as you know, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 49:13 have you written a book?   Patti Oskvarek ** 49:15 I have been in a collaboration of a book. I've wrote a chapter. I haven't wrote a full, long book, but I do write blogs. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 49:28 maybe that will happen someday, but the fact that you written a chapter and you're collaborating on a book certainly adds value and helps too. Yes, it does. So how does I think? Again, this is something we've kind of gone over a lot of this. But how does coaching overall help people in the workplace and in their in their individual lives? And when should people look for a coach?   Patti Oskvarek ** 49:55 Good question. So coaching is really. Good for individuals who want to achieve something but don't really know how to get there or need a little help getting there, and we're there to listen and ask questions and get you to where you want to be. Everybody can use a coach, even coaches need coaches, because they help you achieve things that you never thought were possible and dreams come true.   Michael Hingson ** 50:34 And I've actually talked to several coaches who have made that very same point, even coaches need coaches, and the value is, of course, both sides learn when that happens. Yes,   Patti Oskvarek ** 50:47 it, it's the most wonderful thing that's ever come into my life.   Michael Hingson ** 50:54 So do you have a coach? I do? I do in addition to your husband? Yes,   Patti Oskvarek ** 51:02 my children, well,   Michael Hingson ** 51:04 there's that too. Yeah, your cat, yeah, well, actually, your cat's your boss.   51:10 But yes,   Michael Hingson ** 51:13 well, so you so where are you located?   Patti Oskvarek ** 51:18 I'm in Arizona. You're   Michael Hingson ** 51:19 in Arizona. But you do? You coach all over the world, or mainly around Arizona or what?   Patti Oskvarek ** 51:26 Yeah, I coach virtually, so all over the world. I take clients from all over the world. Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 51:34 pretty exciting, yes. Well, if people want to get a hold of you and want to explore working with you and having you help them or whatever. How do they do that? And where do they go?   Patti Oskvarek ** 51:47 They go to my website, which is coaching for inspiration with patti.com and Patti spell, P, A, T, T,   Michael Hingson ** 51:54 I say that one more time coaching,   Patti Oskvarek ** 51:57 coaching for inspiration with patty.com and Patti is spelled, P, A, T, T, I Okay.   Michael Hingson ** 52:08 And is there anything that they should specifically look for when they go there? Or how do they start?   Patti Oskvarek ** 52:14 Okay, so I have my about page, I have my coaching page, I have just my blog. Everything's on my website. So if you want to schedule coaching with me or Reiki with me, you just go to the coaching page or the Reiki page.   Michael Hingson ** 52:37 Now you do other things, like podcasts, don't you? Yes,   Patti Oskvarek ** 52:41 I have two podcasts. One is called building better relationships at home and at work with Angela and Patti. And Angela is my co host, Angela ambrosia and and then I have a five minute or so podcast, mini podcast called Exploring life and work with Patti. And I talk about managers and supervisors situations in their work life, in their home life, and it's called Exploring life and work with Patti, from chaos to calm.   Michael Hingson ** 53:19 And where can people find the podcasts   Patti Oskvarek ** 53:22 on Spotify, or any of the listening platforms? And I'm starting to put them on YouTube, on my YouTube channel. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 53:32 I started doing that with unstoppable mindset in 2022 and although still the majority of people listen to the podcast. There are people who like to watch the YouTube podcast as well. So we do that. Yes, we, we accommodate our sighted friends.   Patti Oskvarek ** 53:56 Yes, yeah, I'm I'm still in the beginning process of putting all my episodes for both onto my YouTube channel, but that's one of my goals, is to successfully do that as well. So I have a few on there, still working on it.   Michael Hingson ** 54:15 Well, I want to thank you for being here with us for this hour. This has been very enjoyable and a lot of fun, and I thought it would be, and I'm really glad that we had a chance to do it. And you know, if you ever want to come back, you're always welcome. If you have more things that you want to talk about, we'd love to have you come back and chat with us some more. I think it would be a lot of fun, but I really am grateful that you came, and I'm very grateful that all of you listen to us out there today. We really value your input, so please let us know what you thought of our podcast. I'm sure Patty would like to hear please go visit her at coaching for inspiration with patty.com but. I'd like to hear from you, and you can email me. It's easy. It's Michael H I M, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S i b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael Hinkson is spelled M, I C, H, I N, G, s, o, n, so Michael hinkson.com/podcast, we'd love to hear from you. Love your thoughts and please, wherever you're listening to us, give us a five star rating. We value that a lot. We hope that you'll like us well enough to do a five star rating. But we do want to hear your thoughts and Patty for you and for all of you listening, if any of you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on our podcast, on unstoppable mindset, we'd love to hear from you. Let us know. We're always looking for guests. We will respond, and we'll take your advice very seriously and probably draft your guests to or your ideas to come on as guests on the podcast. So once again, though, Patty, I want to thank you for being here. This has been incredibly enjoyable, and I'm really glad that we had the opportunity to do it. Thank you.   Patti Oskvarek ** 56:09 Thank you, Michael, for having   **Michael Hingson ** 56:16 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

If you want to hear the story of a truly unstoppable person then listen to this episode and our guest, Tina Huang. To begin, Tina grew up with a hidden disability which still does not really have a name. Tina will tell us how she battled through school up through under graduate and graduate studies knowing she was different, but not getting any real support to find out why she had so many difficulties with the learning process. Even so, not only did Tina have challenges, but she found on her own ways to get by and even excel.   In addition to her learning disability she lately has also had to battle what she calls “being environmentally sensitive”. She has had to face mold in three different homes which caused her to face serious illness. As she will tell us, however, she has come out the other side and is again open for business helping others who face similar difficulties as she has faced.   Tina has not only learned pre-covid how to be a good healer, but due to all the challenges she has faced she has found improved healing methods that have helped her. She is using her newly learned skills to do even more to help her clients. Tina clearly is committed to living and being unstoppable. She has lots to offer as you will see.       About the Guest:   For the 1st half of my life, I struggled with learning disabilities, severe stomach pains, depression, anxiety, and horrific self-loathing.  My father was always angry, and we were constantly walking on eggshells around him. I never could please him.  We lived in Hong Kong for 4 years where my parents put me in a Chinese speaking school, and I hated it.  I never was able to learn the language well enough to make friends.      Life was better after returning to the US, but in high school I was starting to notice that I had to work a lot harder than my peers.  In college I got my degree in computer science and then became a software engineer, but I had no love for computers.   Meanwhile my ailments and concerns were either dismissed by doctors, or inadequately addressed, or I was told I had to just accept my limitations.  This was fueling my depression and despair, so I decided for my own mental health, that I had to refuse to accept their limitations.   I decided that if they didn't have answers, I had to find them.  It was my only hope!  I applied to get my Ph.D. in neuroscience and went to the University of Rochester.   But in graduate school, we had lectures that would last for 4 hours and I couldn't keep up.   There weren't any textbooks, and I kept missing key points.  I constantly had to ask a classmate to help me fill in the gaps.   I was having frequent panic attacks about whether I'd be able to stay in grad school.  My peers seemed to be able to have relatively balanced lives, but I constantly had to turn down social activities to study.  Several professors suggested that I consider doing something else, but they argued that if I couldn't handle the classes, the research was going to be infinitely harder.  I disagreed.  I'd always been good at projects.  It was the memorization that I struggled with.  I was finally diagnosed with a learning disability in my last academic class in grad school.   My senior lab advisor dropped my funding when I told him I had been diagnosed with a learning disability.  My only chance of staying in grad school was to write my own NIH grant.  I did.  The head of the Neurobiology & Anatomy program offered to read my grant the night before it was due.   He told me it was the best NRSA grant he'd ever read, and that he had no suggestions for improvement!   It got funded on my first submission!  This was a first in all 3 neuroscience programs in my grad school (University of Rochester)!   In my 5th year in grad school, I realized I wasn't great in the lab, and didn't love doing research on animals, so I took off for a badly needed vacation for a month in India.  My travel partner mentioned wanting to get his Masters of Public Health, and I couldn't wait to learn more about it.  When I got back, I discovered the field of epidemiology and realized that this was a MUCH better fit for me.  So after getting my Ph.D. I went to Johns Hopkins for a postdoctoral fellowship in psychiatric epidemiology.  I did a postdoc in nutritional epidemiology at Tufts University,  some research with Transparent Corporation, and then ended up in a couple of postdocs that went south for various reasons, and I had to leave the field.  I was devastated.  I knew that if I had the support I needed, I would have been able to make a much bigger difference in Alzheimer's research, but apparently that wasn't my destiny.   Out of my despair, I sought ways to heal from my trauma.  I had already seen a psychiatrist at the best medical school, and counselors for decades, but I still hated almost everything about me.  Things had to change!  So I kept searching for anything that would help.   And that is when I discovered energy medicine.  I noticed that I was for the first time getting relief from my trauma for the first time in my life!  When I felt like my research career had ended, I started my business as a holistic brain health practitioner when I realized that I could help clients address their root causes quickly and efficiently with my intuitive skills.    Because I didn't have any business skills or support, it took a long time for me to have a full practice, but in 2021 I had a full practice with a waiting list.   Then in early 2022 disaster struck.  I had to evacuate from 3 homes over 5 months due to mold and toxins.   The first 2 killed my beloved soulmate kitty.    Then I bought a condo and had to evacuate 2 weeks later due to toxic mold and parasites.  The toxic mold came from the attic and chimney, and the stress of having to compel the HOA to remediate, while I was having relentlessly terrifying symptoms and unable to live at home was too much. I was out of money and had to live with strangers while I was extremely sick and immunocompromised in the middle of COVID.   I also got extremely environmentally sensitive and couldn't interact with paper, my clothes, bags, my computer or phone safely for about a year.   While I was an excellent healer before this trauma, I've been forced to relentlessly search for better and better ways to heal safely.   Luckily, it's been paying off, and I'm no longer environmentally sensitive and finally able to work again.  I need to rebuild my business as quickly as possible to pay off my debts so I don't lose my home.   I'm on a mission to help others with similar issues, so less people will have to endure the hell that I've been through.  But I'm unstoppable.   Ways to connect with Tina:   https://tryholisticbrainhealth.com/ https://www.facebook.com/tryHolisticBrainHealth/ https://www.facebook.com/tina.huang.353 https://www.linkedin.com/in/tinalhuangphd/ www.youtube.com/@TinaHuangPhD     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Greetings once again, everyone. I am your host, Mike Hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset today, we get to do one of those things that I always love, and that is, we get a guest who I met at a recent podapalooza event. And if you don't know what podaPalooza is? Because you haven't kept up with this here. PodaPalooza is an event that happens four times a year, and it is an event for people who are doing podcasts, who want to interview people, people who want to become podcasters, and are wanting to learn how and it's also for people who want to be interviewed by podcasters. I think that covers everything. So it really is all things podcasting. And we had one earlier in June. And out of that, I happened to meet this very interesting lady, Tina Huang, who said that she wanted to come on unstoppable mindset. And I thought that would be a good thing. So here we are, Tina, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really   Tina Huang ** 02:24 glad you're here. Thank you for having me, Michael and   Michael Hingson ** 02:28 I didn't tell her that we would be nice, but we will.   Tina Huang ** 02:34 I'm always nice.   Michael Hingson ** 02:35 Well, there you go. See that's what works. As I did tell Tina, I think I told you, if I didn't, then I'll tell you now that there's one hard and fast rule on this podcast, and that is, everyone has to have fun. So there sounds great. So that works.   Tina Huang ** 02:51 I'm always up for fun. There you   Michael Hingson ** 02:53 are. It's always a good idea to have fun. Well, let's start maybe by kind of learning a little about the earlier Tina, growing up and all that. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that, and then we can, and I know from reading your bio, we can then go into all sorts of things from there.   Tina Huang ** 03:09 Yeah, well, thank you for asking. Michael. I actually had a pretty difficult childhood growing up. It's not a fun topic, but I'll kind of go into some some brief aspects about it. So I was born in the United States, but I moved to Hong Kong when we were when I was about six, seven years old, after first grade, and my parents put me in a Chinese speaking school, and I didn't speak Chinese at that time, and they my dad was like, you know, you got to learn Chinese by immersion. And I have to say that I really, really, really struggled. It was so hard for me. We had to memorize our Chinese lessons, and it would be only a paragraph, but the way I would memorize would be that, I mean, it was just I realized that just the standard, like repeating sentences over and over again wasn't working for me. So I finally went down to the method of memorizing one character and then adding another character and memorizing two characters and then memorizing three characters. I mean, it was so slow and so methodical. And at first grade, I was like, up till like, after midnight, studying for these stupid exams, these Chinese lesson exams. And my sister, my younger sister, was not having these kinds of problems at all, and so nobody picked up on something, that something was wrong, but that was kind of a beginning indicator that was something, that something wasn't going well for me. I hated Hong Kong, to be honest. It was just such a struggle. And I really miss speaking English, you know, I didn't. It was very hard to make friends when I was struggling so much with the language, and I get caught, get get, got put in different classrooms every year, because the way, my parents decided that to to keep us in school, they had a class that would go from morning to afternoon to morning to afternoon, but they want to keep me in the mornings. And so I had different, different classmates every. A year. So it was a real struggle. And I was very happy to get back to the United States, where I was like, oh my goodness, we're speaking English again. And and suddenly I went from being and I, and before I had left for Hong Kong, I was actually, like, grades ahead of everybody else. I was like, in third they, you know, even though I was in first grade, I kept getting put in, like, with the third graders. So this, you know, going from being the super smart kid to the super dumb kid was a real challenge. So when I came back to the United States again, I was a smart kid, but things my school schools got a lot harder as I got into high school, but especially undergraduate and then graduate school, where I was just really struggling in in classes in terms of absorbing information. And   Michael Hingson ** 05:47 what year was this roughly   Tina Huang ** 05:49 that I went to Hong Kong?   Michael Hingson ** 05:51 No say, when you went to undergrad, when you started college. I started   Tina Huang ** 05:55 college in 1986 Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 05:58 okay. The reason I asked is that we've learned so much about learning disabilities and so on since that time, yes, so it's not too surprising. But anyway, go ahead, yeah, and   Tina Huang ** 06:10 back in those days, for listeners who are younger, we knew hardly anything about learning disabilities, and we might have known about dyslexia when I was young. I don't know, we might have known about add but, you know, it was not something that was discussed. It was very rarely known about, right? So, yeah, and in fact, I went to graduate school in neuroscience, you know, I'm gonna skip move forward to that. And even in my neuroscience programs, we were not talking about learning disabilities back then, I was kind of appalled. I was like, we're not talking about learning disabilities and so, and that will apparently, was in the developmental biology section, but it wasn't in, or it wasn't actually in developmental biology. It was more like developmental psychology, yeah, where it was discussed, but it wasn't, it had not been brought into the neuroscience arena at all.   Tina Huang ** 07:02 Well, when   Michael Hingson ** 07:03 or let me rephrase it differently, what did you finally discover was your actual learning disability? Was it dyslexia? Or what was it? No, it wouldn't be dyslexia, because that wouldn't answer the issues of learning from an auditory standpoint, Chinese, although that's a language with a lot of nuances anyway,   Tina Huang ** 07:24 yeah, that well, so the the learning disability that doesn't actually have a name, it was just called an accumulative learning disability. You know, some people have auditory deficits. Some people have visual deficits. I had everything deficit in terms of, well, everything they tested deficit. And I should say that I didn't actually get diagnosed with learning disability until my last year of classes in graduate school, and it was because of the times, really, because there was just so little known about it. But I had extensive testing with a clinical psychologist, and what they discovered was that that I was exceptionally brilliant in some ways and exceptionally handicapped in others. And what I was struggling with, and what I still struggle with, it's just accumulation of information, a lot of information. And in graduate school in neuroscience, we actually had classes that lasted for four hours. And imagine four hours of intense, yes, not conducive to learning at all.   Michael Hingson ** 08:23 Disability notwithstanding, oh,   Tina Huang ** 08:25 my goodness, yeah. And, and, you know, it's a little frustrating to me. You know, in a neuroscience program that they'd actually allow that, like, how do they not understand that, that a four hour lecture is not a good idea for anybody. But you know, of course, especially with people learning disabilities. But you know, they weren't here there to accommodate people learning disabilities, even though two of us had one, one of my friends, we only we. You know, graduate school programs aren't necessarily large. Mine was only seven. No right between seven and 13 people in each class, depending on the the the class. And so I think in our program officially, there were nine or 11 or something like that, because it varied a bit depending on the year. But one, one of the women had dyslexia, and then there was me, and I really the it's a cumulative learning disability. So basically it means that, you know, if there's a lot of if there's too much information being presented at once, I'm not going to be able to retain it all. And it really shows up a lot in languages. Like, because there's just languages are almost they come out from nowhere. I have a really hard time remembering names unless they're common. Like, I don't have a problem with Michael, but if you give me a Chinese name that I've never maybe a language like Arabic or something like that, that I don't know Well, I mean, that's going to be or I don't know at all, that could be a real challenge unless I've heard that name before, or if it's simple to pronounce. But the more complex a name is, and the more foreign it is, the harder it is for me to remember, right? So it's, it's an. It's a learning disability that sort of requires that really baseline learning and and you know, that idea that, like people, can just jump into a foreign country and absorb that is exactly what I can't do, right? There's no immersion aspect of of what I do just FYI, I'm not making these funny. All these strange symbols are coming up on zoom that I'm not making. So I'm going to see if I can stop that. But I'm not making those purposely.   Michael Hingson ** 10:31 That's okay. And I'm not hearing and I'm not hearing them, so it's okay, okay. But the it's, it's interesting. So you went through most of of school, not really understanding why you were and you obviously observed that you were different, but you had no real understanding of why you were different or how you were different other than you just couldn't get material absorbed the same way most people did   Tina Huang ** 11:00 Right, right. And yet it was very confusing, because I was often told, Oh, you're really smart. You're so smart, you know. And I know that, like in some ways I am, you know. And actually, right now, they're only talking about it, but there's this term called twice exceptional. And twice exceptional is when you are exceptionally brilliant and yet exceptionally handicapped at the same time, and that's, you know, when you and somebody asked me really recently, you know, so isn't everybody neurodivergent, right? Doesn't everybody have these differences in their learning? And my answer to them was, yes, we all have different brains, and some of us are stronger in some ways and weaker and other ways. But when you have a disability that's so severe that you cannot have a normal life, you can't you can't have any balance in your life, or you need accommodations, and you can't function. You can't survive with the way society is expecting you to survive based on your disabilities. That's when you have a quote, unquote disability, is when societies, the society is not geared to help you thrive.   Michael Hingson ** 12:07 Course, the the issue with disabilities in general, and it's something that we talk about from time to time, on unstoppable mindset, when the opportunity arises, I submit that everyone on the planet has a disability, and the problem for most people is they're light dependent. Why is that a disability? Just watch the power suddenly go out where you are, especially at night, but even during the day, I've seen that happen during the day, power goes out, lights go out suddenly. Everybody's scrambling to try to find a smartphone or a flashlight to be able to see, because they're not used to functioning without light, and the reality is that their disability of light dependence is covered up because we have focused so heavily on making light on demand available. But it doesn't change the fact that the disability is still there, it's just covered up a lot, right?   Tina Huang ** 13:04 But you don't need it to survive either, unless, unless we have a power outage, right? So you, you know, you are much more prepared if we all have a power outage than most of us. But, yeah, situation often, then, then you would be in better shape. But if we don't have power outages, if we live in a country where that's not a common problem, then you know, other people are an advantage because they can see, right?   Michael Hingson ** 13:33 Oh, no, I understand that, but. But the point is, though, that if you want to level the playing field, the reality is, everyone has a disability of some sort. It's just that for most people, the disability is really covered up because we have light on demand. We don't have light on demand necessarily in Uganda and other places like that, where there isn't power or a lot of power. I actually talked with someone yesterday who's going to come on unstoppable mindset, and they offer to children solar powered lamps so that they can study because they don't have power to be able to have lights to study at night, but if they have solar powered lamps that charge up during the day, then in fact, they can continue to study at night, unless They take a different tact and learn braille or something like that, but sighted people aren't going to do that, and that's okay, but the bottom line is, it still proves that everyone has some sort of disability. What we don't tend to do nearly as much as we ought to is recognize that while everyone has different gifts. We shouldn't knock somebody just because their gifts are different than our gifts, right?   Tina Huang ** 14:47 And actually, I want to expand on that quite a bit, because there is, if we think about this a little bit more broadly. Well, first of all, there's, I don't know if you're familiar with Oliver Sacks, books he wrote. A Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat. He's a famous neurologist, and he talks about people who are differentially abled. He himself, I think, would be considered twice exceptional. He is the kind of person that he has a facial AG, nausea, where he cannot recognize people when he sees them. And in fact, it's so bad. It is so bad that if he looks in the mirror, he doesn't even recognize himself. And that's just insane. That's that is extreme. So he, he is also absolutely a brilliant writer and a brilliant neurologist, and he writes a lot about people who are differentially abled. So he has, you know, he's written about amazing stories of like, for example, there's a drummer with Tourette's syndrome, and as soon as he takes his medication, so he's a absolutely brilliant drummer. And as soon as he takes his medication, he loses that, that profound ability to drum in the way that he normally does. It's just, it's fascinating about what you know, how things can be influenced by our disabilities or the drugs that we take and so forth. There are other stories like, I don't remember whether it was Oliver Sacks or somebody else who wrote about a man who could smell as well as a dog, right? And imagine having the sensory receptors of of pets, right? And if we think about disabilities, it's like, well, you know, if you compare, if we compare ourselves to our dogs and their olfactory senses, well, we, you know, in some ways, we could say we all have disabilities, right? Because there are dogs that can sniff out COVID Or, you know, help us figure out where mold is and so forth. And you know, most humans, the vast majority of humans, aren't built for that. You know, we have there are animals across the animal kingdom that can see a lot of things that we can't see or detect energies that we can't see. And so when we think about this, I mean, and within the human spectrum, there are people that are very right brained and have intuitive abilities that most of us don't have, right so you know that, and so we are all differentially abled. That is true, and sometimes our handicaps actually lead to our brilliances. There's a fascinating story, I think it was on a hidden brain where somebody had a head injury, and after the head injury, they developed these amazing, incredible musical skills that were just beyond imagination. You know, like, suddenly, this person, without training, became a professional musician. It's like, so the brain is absolutely fascinating, and it's one reason why I'm a neuroscienter. I have training in neuroscience is because these differential abilities that people have are mind blowing and mind you know, and it's just fascinating to realize that we are we're all limited in our ability to perceive truth. We are all limited. And I think if we recognize that and know that, like it's dependent on our experiences and our own sensory systems, which are they're limited because we're human and we're not necessarily, we don't have all the sensory system systems that exist. It's just good to know. It's very humbling, and it's also helps us realize that there's all this new stuff to learn in these perspectives, to to learn from.   Tina Huang ** 18:24 And   Michael Hingson ** 18:26 I have always been a proponent of the concept that in reality, we should always be learning. And if we ever decide we know all we need to know and stop learning, that's such a horrible thing to do, because there's always new stuff to learn, always, always, which is what makes life so fun. I was at the University of California at Irvine a week ago tomorrow, actually, so last Thursday, and so I was down there because I was inducted actually into phi beta, kappa as an alumni member, which is kind of cool, because I wasn't able to to join when I was in in college, because they were just forming the chapter when I was leaving. But I was visiting one of my thank you. I was visiting with one of my old physics professors, actually a couple of them. And I brought up, you know, we were talking about how, how physics has learned so much, but there's still so much to learn. And I said, Well, someday we'll finally figure out the unified field theory that combines everything. And one of the professors said something that's very interesting, and I think is very true. He said it may not even be unified field theory. It may go off in completely different directions, which is new from the way it used to be. But the fact is, we're learning so much that we are. We're learning and discovering that things we thought aren't necessarily the way they are, and we have to continue to grow. And I think it's so much fun to see that sort of thing happening. Yeah,   Tina Huang ** 19:57 and I have to say, I mean, that's part of being an unstoppable. Having an unstoppable mindset, right? One thing that I talk about as a holistic brain health practitioner is that, you know, the reason why I'm a Holistic brain health practitioner, I should say, is because of my differential brain, my brain that doesn't, doesn't, isn't very, very conducive to an environment like medical school. So I basically did the PhD route and did postdoctoral training in epidemiology in order to to develop my expertise in root causes, which is what I'm an expert in. But as I talk to clients or the public in general, a lot of people struggle with symptoms that they don't understand or characteristics they don't understand. And Western medicine, you know, as brilliant as it is, and I'm not going to, you know, I'm not bad talking western medicine, but I think in the United States, we put a little bit too much faith in western medicine, and believe that it should be able to address everything. And right now it doesn't, and it may not ever get that way, until they start to open their mind up to look at what other cultures are doing. Chinese medicine, for example, has so much brilliance. Energy. Medicine has so much brilliance. The Amazon has so much brilliance. And if we stick to the idea that we need to think about it only in terms of the way that Western medicine is able to do it, and they are thinking about it in from a, you know, if you look at physics, they're looking at it from a It's not quantum mechanics, it's the other kind of mechanics. What is it? Classical Mechanics, right? It's a classical way of looking at things, but quantum mechanics is really like, that's where the magic happens, right? And if they're not incorporating that way of thinking, then they're going to think that everybody who's doing using methods, using quantum mechanics is crazy. But physics can prove that quantum that particles can be in two places at once. So in physics, can prove all these things that sound absolutely crazy, but work in energy medicine, and so the idea that like that, you know, I think I want to see, like Western medicine, just the whole field, be a little bit more humble in some ways. You know, when you go to a doctor, if somebody shows up with symptoms that that they don't understand, instead of calling them crazy, I want them to say, Oh, that's interesting. Let me, let me learn more about what's going on for you and see if I can figure out what those causes are or what to do about it. Yeah, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 22:38 yeah. So it's so true, I mean, there's more to life than drugs, and yeah, and Western medicine focuses so much just on the drug part of it, and there's been so much evidence that any number of people, and we've had a number of people on unstoppable mindset, who had medical Problems that Western medicine didn't solve but reg a and energy medicines and Eastern medicines and other kinds of forms of medicine, if you will, helped, and they were able to get beyond what was deal, what they were, what they were feeling and what was hurting them, and they became better for it.   Tina Huang ** 23:19 Yeah, exactly. And I think that the you know, it's not that you shouldn't look at Western medicine, it's that everything needs to be considered. And I think the more you merge it, and the more you consider the varieties of practices that involve, are involved, or that are possible, the better outcomes you can't get. Same time, it is very overwhelming. There's a lot of possibilities, of places you can go. So it's a matter of knowing, you know where the brilliance is, and and so forth. So that is a challenging and that's my life mission. Is figuring out, you know, what are those methods that are really effective and and helping people heal?   Michael Hingson ** 23:56 One of the things when we started dealing with China back in the Nixon administration and beyond, acupuncture started being talked about. But even today, Western medicine doesn't embrace it fully and make it a traditional part of what it does, even though clearly it helps any number of people.   Tina Huang ** 24:19 Yeah. And the thing about acupuncture is that, you know, they they used to say, and they're not saying it anymore, but they used to say, Oh, it's a placebo effect. And I would look at it and look at them like, this whole placebo argument is really kind of ridiculous when it comes to acupuncture, because it looks like torture. So it's like, Why would anything look like torture have a placebo effect? You know? Yeah, make any sense to me? Yeah. So, you know, I think, I think at least nowadays, Western medicine is a little bit more cautious about saying anything bad about acupuncture. And, in fact, more are willing to say, hey, you know, it's worth trying. It's worth trying. Exactly, good, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 24:55 Well, so for you, so you went through most of college. Knowledge and everything with a learning disability. What really finally caused you to I don't want, well, maybe the terminology isn't correct to say, feel comfortable with it, but what was it that finally got you to realize that you had a learning disability or were different, and you had to really do things in a different way, and how did that then start to affect what you did?   Tina Huang ** 25:26 Yeah, I am, I actually was asked several times in graduate school, like professors took me aside. So I should say, in graduate school, I was having regular panic attacks. I was I had no life. I was studying like crazy. I remember, like sometimes feeling so much panic. I would just get on my bike and just bike as fast as I can, you know, just trying to get that panic out of me. I was pulled aside several times by professors who said to me, you know, I you, you know, you really seem to be struggling way too much. And you know, the classwork is the easy part. If you can't do the class work. How are you ever going to be able to, you know, do the research? And I would, I would look at them and say, look, the classwork is going to be the hardest part for me. This is definitely going to be the hardest part for me. But once I get to the projects, once I get to the research, I'm good with projects. I think I should be okay. And they would look at me like I had two heads, and then let me know. And finally, my my advisor, My Media Advisor, in the lab I was working with, said, you know, Tina, you asked too many questions. And I was like, well, so does this other person like? Why? How? Why is asking questions a bad idea? And he said, Well, yours are different. And so I knew that he really cared about me, and he wanted me to thrive. And so the way he phrased it made me start to think, Okay, I need to go see get a clinical, you know, clinical evaluation. Now, again, back then, this was not something like we only knew about, I think dyslexia, and add at a time, weren't names for other learning disabilities and and so, and very few people even like, he didn't suggest I go see one like. He didn't even really know much about that concept. He just said, something is different about you. And so I did some research and looked and found out that there was a Learning Disability Center. And so I went to them, talked to them, and I had looked into the, I think, briefly before, but nothing. The disabilities that were described weren't exactly what I had. So, you know, it was, I didn't know if they could help me, but they sent me off to clinical psychologist who gave me this evaluation I was talking about, that that, you know, actually found that I was like he was actually the clinical psychologist I saw was in his 70s, and he had been working in the field for, I don't know, 50 years or something like that, but some insanely long period of time. And he said, you know, your ability to accumulate information is like less than the 20th percentile. We're talking about general population. We're not talking about in comparison to graduate school peers. And then when it but when it comes to, like, this one math test, which is just sort of arithmetic, he's like you, not only did you score a perfect score, but you did it faster than anybody else I've seen in the history of my entire career. And also I knew that, like, you know, we took these graduate school record examinations. And we had a verbal section, we had a math section, we had a logic section, and I know that, like in the logic section, I actually scored in the 98th percentile for people who are taking this examination. In the math I was like, in the upper nine, like, not upper 90s, but I think like 90 or 92nd or something like that percentile and the verbal, I studied the verbal like crazy, and I was, like, in less the 40th percentile. But I studied, I could never get that up high, you know, at all. So that's, you know, again, another example of extreme. So anyways, differences in my my abilities. So in that last class in graduate school I did, I was able to ask for more time on my tests, but my senior advisor also told me that I had to tell I'm sorry. My junior advisor also told me I had to tell my senior advisor that I had a disability, and I really dreaded that, but he had, he was holding the key to my funding. I was on his grant, and so I told him, and he dropped me. He dropped my funding.   29:21 And did he say why? He   Tina Huang ** 29:25 did not say why. Because, if he had said why, it would have been illegal. But, you know, he basically said he didn't think I could do the job right. Do, do the research. Luckily, my junior advisor believed in me, and my junior advisor was starting to get really worried about my senior advisor and not say he did not say that explicitly, but I could see in his actions there, the senior advisor was really well known, but there were some things about him that were of grave concern that were really getting revealed, partly from interactions with me. And so he dropped. To me, but Carrie o Banyan, who is my, was my advisor at the time, said, You know, you're, he didn't have the money at that time, and he's like, the only option we have is if you we write a grant, you know, and I had to write that. That was, that was an NIH grant called NRSA. And I wrote that grant, and with his support. And I remember the night before submission, the head of the neurobiology, anatomy Department said, Hey, Tina, would you like me to read your grant and give you just any last minute advice? And I was like, Sure. And so he calls me up the night before it's due. And he's like, okay, Tina, I want you to write. Sit down, grab a piece of paper and a pen, and I want you to write this down. And he's like, are you ready, you know, are you prepared for this? And I'm like, Yeah, give it to me, you know. And he goes, I want you to write I did an excellent job on my NRSA. And I was like, oh, okay, well, thank you. Do you have anything else? And he's like, No, I'm like, what? He goes, this is the best NRSA I've ever read.   Tina Huang ** 31:05 I was like, oh, okay, thank you. He goes,   Michael Hingson ** 31:08 What does NRSA stand for? And   Tina Huang ** 31:10 NRSA is, oh, it's just, I can't remember. It's important,   Michael Hingson ** 31:15 no, just curious. Anyway, go   Tina Huang ** 31:17 ahead, yeah, but it is the it was at least that time. It was the premier NIH grant that you could get as a graduate student. It was the most prestigious and best NRSA ever read, yeah, yeah. And so it was the best NRSA you'd ever read. And he said, yeah, just submit it as is. It's as good as it gets. You don't need any improvement. And then so I submitted it, and I got funded on the first submission. And again, that was the first. That's very unusual too. Yeah, it was extremely unusual. It was the first in all three neuroscience departments at University of Rochester.   Tina Huang ** 31:54 So I'm   Tina Huang ** 31:56 the comeback kid. I mean, I got, you know, I love that. You know, here I am. People have asked me to leave graduate school three times, and I show them that I can do research, right, you know, and that I'm an excellent grant writer, which is exactly the biggest reason, the biggest fear, and what I had been told is that it's so hard to get grants, and here I am. I just nailed it on my first try.   Michael Hingson ** 32:25 What did your senior academic advisor say about that? Oh,   Tina Huang ** 32:29 he didn't. He was out of the picture. We just didn't. We stopped talking to him honestly. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 32:32 okay,   Tina Huang ** 32:34 yeah. Better that way, yeah. I mean,   Tina Huang ** 32:41 I am sure he heard about it, and I'm sure he was stumped. I know, I know that a lot of my professors that had asked me to leave were very confused by that, but I hope, I hope that seeing that enabled them to see that we need to start talking about learning distriments, differences in disabilities, and I, and I have seen that shift like I know that. I know that neuro learning disabilities, actually, what's really interesting is that I'm as I get these graduate school alumni magazines there are, there are actually conferences now in learning disabilities at University of Rochester, in the neuroscience you know that are heavily that neuro or the neuroscience department, is heavily involved. And I would like to think that what they saw with me helped them start to think about the importance of thinking about differential learning abilities.   Tina Huang ** 33:36 And probably that is true.   Tina Huang ** 33:41 I would, yeah, I just thought of that, but I think, I think that that probably got some heads turning.   Michael Hingson ** 33:46 So you got your PhD, and then what did you do?   Tina Huang ** 33:52 Well, I realized actually that I was not in love with lab work. I really am interested in mechanism of action, but I did not like the idea of working with animals in the way that we did in the labs, and I didn't like chemicals. And so I went on a trip to India during grad school years to kind of get away and and reframe and just think of it. And I was traveling with a friend who told me he wanted to get his master's in public health. And back then, I didn't know what that was, but I suddenly my ears perked up because that sounded really intriguing to me. And then I got back and and I was in the in a graduate student council, and somebody passed around the the pamphlet for public health, and I looked at it. And I saw this, this little description of a course in epidemiology, and I was like, Wow, this sounds really interesting. And it was about getting at root causes. And so I started digging into looking more the web was just a pretty new thing back then. And so I was like, searching, you know, the web, and trying to figure out. Um, more about this epidemiology, because it sound fascinating. And then I heard the John Snow story, which is about understanding like this. John Snow epidemiologist was what they call a shoestring epidemiologist, where there was a water pump that was the source of cholera, and how he found that made that discovery of how cholera started. And I was just like, This is what I want to do. I want to get at root causes. And so I actually decided, you know, I was advised to finish my PhD. I was in my fifth year at that time. I come pretty far at that point. So I was advised to just finish off my research and then apply for postdocs in epidemiology. So I actually applied. I, for some reason, I went to Johns Hopkins. I applied to Johns Hopkins, and I got accepted there as a postdoc. And so I did my postdoc at psychiatric in psychiatric Epidemiology at Johns Hopkins, and I loved it, because they actually and they let me take all the classes. I audited them, because otherwise I'd have to pay for them. I didn't have the money, so I audited classes in epidemiology and and bio stats and all the other things that I needed to   Tina Huang ** 36:16 to work in that field.   Michael Hingson ** 36:19 So you learned what you needed to, and that's kind of where you started focusing.   Tina Huang ** 36:24 Yeah, yeah. So I wrote, I wrote some the work that I'm most proud of was in that field. I did some pretty made some pretty cool discoveries for in the field of Alzheimer's disease, discovered that early life actually impacts your risk of dementia. And I looked at a measure, an anthropometric measure, called knee knee height. So the height of our knees is actually indicative of our first two years of life. And specifically we were thinking it was nutrition, but now I think it might be more than nutrition. I think nutrition is a very important part of it, but I think also our adverse childhood experiences are contribute, contribute as well, but also our microbiome. So I was the first, not the first, paper to show that knee height was an indicator, indicative of or in knee height, or that those first two years of life was important and relevant for a risk, our future risk of dementia. I was the first person to show that in or first paper to show that in a western population.   Michael Hingson ** 37:43 So how did you discover that? Or what exactly did you discover that makes somebody who's less likely to get dementia, as opposed to somebody who's more likely?   Tina Huang ** 37:58 Yeah, so what I discovered is that people with shorter knee heights have a higher risk of dementia. Got it and the knee height is indicative. It's a reflection of what happened in the first two years of our life. Okay,   Tina Huang ** 38:14 yeah, so   Michael Hingson ** 38:15 partly nutrition, but partly other other things that come along that affect it,   Tina Huang ** 38:23 right? And I And, and that's, you know, I didn't prove that in the paper. That's just knowledge that I've accumulated from watching the research. But we now know the importance of the microbiome, for example, that was not, we were not touching on that subject at all back then, right? And now there's a lot of research on adverse childhood experiences. You know how our early life experience, you know whether we got enough emotional support, whether we have a parent that's in jail or violent, all of that impacts our stress and our you know, for if we're undergoing if we are in the midst of extreme stress or neglect or anything like that, not getting the new the love and support we need that can impact our ability to impacts our microbiome and our ability to absorb nutrients, digest and absorb nutrients, and To get interest that brain health connection that's vital to success and thriving.   Michael Hingson ** 39:24 I know that when, and I've told the story before here, but when I was born, and it was discovered about four months after I was born, that I was blind, I was born two months premature and put in an incubator and given too much oxygen, and that causes the retina not to develop properly, but the doctors told my parents to go off and send me to a home because a blind child could never grow up to be anything good in society. Essentially, couldn't be a contributor, would bring down the family and so on. And my parents said, Absolutely not. He can grow up to learn to do what. Whatever he wants. And that's why opportunity, which is, which is the point.   Tina Huang ** 40:06 And I think you're unstoppable, you know, because you had that parental, you know, those parental cheerleaders that you so badly needed, and that's just, that's amazing, well, and the power that's, I mean, that that alone, really speaks to the about the power of parents and what they can do for their kids. I see great example of that.   Michael Hingson ** 40:27 I've seen so many kids who are blind or were blind, who grew up and who weren't overly self confident, who didn't do as well as they could have, but it was because they were sheltered. Their parents didn't feel that they could do as much, and the result was they didn't do as much, yeah, and they didn't really learn to do the things that they could do, and they weren't challenged to be able to do the things that they ought to be able to do, like other people, and it's so unfortunate, but I've seen some, some children who grew up who were very good, very competent, very competent, but so many, oh, they're blind, they can't do anything, and that was how they were braced. And that's always a challenge, of course, and a problem,   Tina Huang ** 41:17 yeah. And I agree, and the same thing with me. I mean, as a person with learning disabilities, I was often dismissed. I mean, I had, I worked in, you know, I was at Johns Hopkins for my first postdoc, but I had some other postdocs that I'm not going to name, where I was neglected pretty severely, and it's because they did not recognize my genius, or maybe they did and didn't want to to foster that because of my other challenges and didn't, didn't believe that I was worth their time. You know, it's, it's very frustrating to to be brilliant and to know that you can contribute in huge ways, but that you're not given that chance to do so. You know, because of people's perceptions, they're inaccurate perceptions about what you're able or, you know, capable of. It   Michael Hingson ** 42:06 gets back to prejudice. It gets back so much to societal prejudice. Yeah,   Tina Huang ** 42:10 and it's, it's, it may not be intentional, and I don't think it's intentional prejudice, but it is stereotypes. And it's, we have these stereotypes. You know, our brains are constructed in a way that we have to categorize people quickly and efficiently. And I have to say that I am grateful because our society is changing. I mean, I am seeing that there is more and more awareness about learning disabilities and neuro divergence and celebrating that. Sure so that is that's wonderful. I I actually have been watching a bit of America got America's Got Talent. And what's great, what I really appreciate about that program is they're starting to accept more and more people of more and more different flavors. I mean, at times, there were we didn't, you know, we shunned people who are who are trans or, you know, have different sexual preferences, or gay or whatever. And, and we're becoming more and more open to those people as well, you know. And maybe not everybody is, but African Americans were, you know, we had an African American president. We're seeing we, we got to see an example of of African Americans and what they can do, you know, and Trevor Noah's brilliance. And, you know, there's just so many, you know, I think it was Amanda Gorman who was the amazing poet, yes. And so, it's, it's, it's wonderful that stereotypes are being broken and, and it's about time, you know, I think it is, it's huge change in just the last few years, and with that, and I'm so grateful to finally see that happen, because I've gone through so much of life where that hasn't happened, but I don't, I wish they'd talk more about, you know, other disabilities as well, but, but it changes are happening. So you're you're a part of that. So thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 44:03 The reality is that, in general, when we talk about diversity, we never talk about disabilities. It's not part of the conversation, and it should be, especially when the CDC says that up to 25% of all people in this country have some sort of a well, I'll call it traditional disability, as opposed to the other 75% who have light dependence, and it's still a disability, but 25% have a disability, and it's something that we don't talk about. There's a lot of fear involved in that, that, Oh, I could become like them. I don't want that. They're they're not as good as I am, they're less than I am, you know, and you talked about LGBTQ and so on. And I find it so interesting, how many people say in the Bible, it says that that's not a good thing, and you're you're going against the Bible if you're LGBTQ. But you know, Jesus also was the person who said, Judge not, lest you be judged and let. It, he or she, if you will, who is without sin cast the first stone. You know, the reality is that it's not my place to judge anyone, no matter who or what, even politicians, although they deserve it. But you know, we don't we. We don't judge people, because that's not our job. That's between them and God and it Well,   Tina Huang ** 45:24 here's the thing is that is that, why would God make us so different and allow that to happen like we're choice, all part of, I mean, this universe produced us, you know, and, and sometimes, you know, if we have brains that don't feel like, you know, if I, if I were, you know, and I'm not this kind of person. But I was also very interested. I actually wrote a paper on the biological basis of homosexuality in graduate school because I thought it was absolutely fascinating of understanding, you know, why? Why do we have brains? Why? Why do we sometimes have brains that don't resonate with how, how we show up externally? You know, like, how come a female can feel like they, they, they should be a male, and a male can feel like, how they should, you know, they should be a female. And it's, it's absolutely fascinating. It's, it's, I'm, I'm very curious about it, but I don't see the defect. It's just a difference, and it's absolutely fascinating, but it's a part of who we are, and it's a part of spectrum of society and and, you know, just because people are different doesn't make them less than it just makes them different, you know, interesting. And even   Michael Hingson ** 46:39 if it were true, even if it were true, which I don't think that it is, but even if it were true that, say being homosexual is is a horrible thing, it's still if, for especially religious people, if you think that goes against what God wants, that's still not your choice To make. Yeah, I agree, and people need to get over it. The reality is, it, is it? Mary, very well, may be choice. I don't know that. It's always choice. You're right. Brains are different, but it's still between the individual involved in God, and people need to leave that stuff alone and allow people to grow as they can, and it's okay to be different, but we, we don't generally tend to accept that collectively in our society, it's not okay to be different. You're supposed to really be like me, or you're less than me, right? And   Tina Huang ** 47:39 I have to say, in terms of a choice, it's not like, Oh, I'm going to choose this flavor of ice cream. It's more like, you know, I mean, people who are trans are choosing, they're choosing who they really believe that they are. And it's a correct fundamental, like, it's, so it's, it's, it's, it's much more. It may be a choice, but it's kind of a choice to just reveal that their truth, that's the real issue. They think, who they feel, their reality of who they are. So it's it. It's kind of like asking them if to, if they're asked to deny that they're asking to deny who they feel they are. And that's, that's a that's a huge thing to ask of people. Huge thing that's not okay to ask people, you know, and I think that's, that's a huge has been a huge struggle of mine, you know, like, I actually grew up in an environment where very Christian, and I have to say that I'm I rebelled a lot because I kept getting told that I had to believe this and I had to believe that. And it wasn't, it wasn't jiving with me, you know, like the idea that God loves you, wasn't jiving with me because I had so much horrible experiences as a child, you know, I did not feel loved by God, and so I did not resonate with that, right? Um, well, that's not something I'm resonating with right now. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, yeah, I've had a lot of challenges in my   Michael Hingson ** 49:08 life. I, I am one of these people who do believe that God loves everyone, but that is, again, an issue between you and God, and so if you decide that that that's okay, that's okay. If it's if you decide it's not okay, God's not going to smite you down for it. God isn't going to execute you. Everyone. That's the beautiful part about the universe. Everyone has free will,   Tina Huang ** 49:40 right, right. I do think it has a lot to do with our experiences, though. So well   Michael Hingson ** 49:45 it does it, it does. And you know, something may come along to make you feel differently in the future, but that's it doesn't matter. That's still really the choice that you get to make as you are going through life and experiencing the adventure. Life, and life is an adventure by any standard, right, right? And it far be. It from me to tell you that you have to say that God loves you,   Tina Huang ** 50:10 right? I appreciate that. Now,   Michael Hingson ** 50:13 my dog, on the other hand, would sit in your lap if he could, but that's another story. He's, he's, he's a   Tina Huang ** 50:21 I trust, I trust animals love me. I can have faith in that at least, at least the healthy ones. Well, yeah, but I am a, I'm a bit of an A kitty magnet, although I love them a lot too. So   Michael Hingson ** 50:34 Well, we have a cat, or I have a cat, and she's probably waiting for this to end, so that I will go pet her while she eats. She loves to get petted while she eats, and she gets very irritated if she doesn't get attention when she wants it. Yeah, that's okay. That's part of love. How did you grow to be a holistic brain practitioner?   Tina Huang ** 51:03 I so I think, you know, I've told you my backstory, learning disabilities and not doing traditional things. I I had severe depression, anxiety, stomach problems, and, of course, these learning disabilities that we've been talking about throughout my early life and kept going to doctors and getting dismissed by doctors. Or, yeah, getting getting dismissed. Or, you know, told I need to go see a psychologist or whatever, and and not really getting to the root of the problems. And I was fascinated by neuroscience, so, you know, I went, you know, did the neuroscience epidemiology route. I told you about that, but I had some bad postdocs, and these postdocs were career ruining for me. I discovered some fraud, and that ended up hurting me more than the person that committed the fraud, which was very upsetting, and I lost my job because I discovered their fraud. And so I had to find new methods to heal. And I had, when I discovered that there were ways that I could, through energy, medicine, intuitively detect root causes directly in people, I decided that that I really need to learn more about this. And when I discovered that the methods worked, I was like, Okay, I need to develop a career in this. You know, it's it was so much more efficient than doing the research. And I also was struggling. I know that, you know, I really was coming down to the or understanding the limitations of research, and some of the big limitations of research, especially when you're looking at data large scale data sets, is that you need to account for all the variables that are involved. And my research was an Alzheimer's disease. And if you look at all the different things are involved that cause Alzheimer's disease, you cannot fit it into a specific equation. You can only fit like, three or four, maybe five variables into a specific into an equation depending on the on your population size, and so it's not going to be able to count for all the very the individual differences. And there was just no way to do that in in epidemiology. And so there's real, I mean, that's just that points to a huge, huge limitation of research is that is really good for people who are the norm. But the problem is, is so many of us are not the norm. So many women. I mean, there's, there's not a lot of research in women, for example. So so much of the research is better for men, you know. And and if you have unusual symptoms, research is not going to cover you at this point, right? So, and I was, I was always in that category of having symptoms that doctors didn't understand. And so I was like, I've got to figure out root causes much more directly. And so when I figured out I could do that, I started to work on develop my own business, and that's how I became a holistic brain health practitioner. I absolutely   Michael Hingson ** 54:06 love it. You made comments about the concept of first impressions. Tell me about that.   Tina Huang ** 54:14 Yeah, I I don't like I think it's really important dangerous. It could be very dangerous to allow your first impressions to navigate your understanding or shape, not, not it will shape, it will always shape your understanding of a person. But if you let it be the sole contributor to your impressions of a person, it can be very dangerous, so let me just elaborate that on a bit. There are people who are very charming and likable when you first meet them, and oftentimes leaders. Lot of leaders are very likable and very charming and can be very popular and well loved.   Tina Huang ** 54:57 But I.   Tina Huang ** 55:01 They can also be very toxic to people who are close to them. And I'm specifically talking about people who are in the sociopathic, the sociopathic personality type, and narcissists are a great example of that. They can be very, very charming, and we can hold on, especially if we are an empath, and are the kind of person that wants to take care of others, we can hold on to those beliefs about this person, that they are wonderful, and that everybody loves them, and so forth, you know. Why? Why are they so? Why does everybody love them so much, you know? And then, and then this person, if you get to it into a relationship with them, if you get too close to them, they can end up being very toxic to especially empaths or people who are vulnerable. I'm not saying that everybody who is charming and likable is this way. I'm just saying that if you are, if you happen to encounter a narcissist, that that's what can happen these personality types, they can go from being just absolutely amazing and wonderful in certain stages and absolutely terrifyingly horrifically dangerous for you on the other side. And so making these assumptions is can be very dangerous, but it's also dangerous for the individuals who have disabilities that are hidden. So it is dangerous for people like me who have a hidden disability. People are not necessarily going to see that I have a disability. It is dangerous for people like me because, for example, I developed a severe environmental sensitivity due to Toxic Mold and doctors could never see even first depression can be like going to a doctor's office and they don't see anything wrong and they can't run anything in tests, so they've decided that you're fine. And so for me, I got, didn't get the diagnosis I needed, and I didn't get the support I need. So I'm actually in deep debt because of I wasn't able to work for two years because nobody was able to give me a diagnosis, and I couldn't get on disability. And so that's another example of first impressions that are dangerous. And they may not be dangerous for the person, if it's the doctor giving it to the patient, but it's very dangerous for those of us who struggle with toxic mold issues. Because I am not alone. There are tons of us who struggle with symptoms that nobody understands and are not getting disabilities or disability help because doctors refuse to understand or to look at the impacts of mold on our systems. Mo, you know, there's three types of mold. There is pathogenic mold, sorry, there's allogenic molds, pathogenic mold and toxigenic mold. And most doctors, if you ask them if they know about those three types, or if they know about different types of mold, they will not know. They only know about allergenic and that's a huge problem, because pathogenic mold, for one, can make you sick for months and make it impossible for you to work for months. Toxigenic mold can completely destroy your immune system and your detoxification systems and make you completely immunocompromised. And it can do it for your entire life, yeah. And it can make you that, that in parasites can make you extremely immunocompromised, and they don't know about that. You know, it's   Michael Hingson ** 58:22 scary that not enough is being done to address the issue. It's like anything else. It takes some incredible, rude awakening somewhere before anyone starts to really focus on some of these issues.   Tina Huang ** 58:36 Yeah, it's, it's a big reason why I was absolutely determined to get well is because I knew that I was going to have to get on stages and start to speak about this. I'm I'm not just trying to champion my own, my own experience, but my experience struggling with these toxic mold issues was absolutely horrific. It was hellish, beyond imagination, and there's not social support to help people like us, and it's just, it's horrific, and it needs to, it needs that needs to change.

I love having the opportunity to talk with coaches on Unstoppable Mindset, especially when they have come to what they do because of their own life experiences. Carrie Wallis is such a person. Born in England Carrie grew up in a home where she was told that her job was to get married and to have children. She rebelled at this and ended up in the corporate world. She did marry and start a family eventually and left the corporate environment. However, she understood that for her there was more to life than being a mom.   She started her own business which, as she says, was at first mainly a hobby. When her husband died of cancer she knew she had to take running her own business more seriously and make it into an entity that would support her family. She did that.   Trauma wasn't done with Carrie. Several years after Carrie's husband passed she was diagnosed with the same cancer he had. She worked hard to do all she could to beat cancer and she did so. Her efforts helped her realize how better to help her clients by showing them how to turn negatives into positive outcomes. Who better than Carrie since she went through life challenges and is the better for it.   Carrie offers us many suggestions and thoughts during our time on this episode. She has many positive and relevant things to say and I suspect you will find ideas here that you will find helpful to you.       About the Guest:   Carrie is a best-selling author, certified in multiple coaching streams: Life, Emotional Intelligence, Resilience, Quantum Release, a qualified counsellor, professional speaker and educator. She has spoken at the ICF business development conference, the Australian Counselling Association's state-wide conferences, Voices of Women and numerous other influential summits and podcasts. Carrie has been supporting healers, heart-centered entrepreneurs and coaches find the confidence to build their businesses to profit for over20 years. Having overcome several traumatic events in her life Carrie is an expert in knowing how to transform negative events into positive outcomes and how to generate profitable marketing.. An English woman living in Australia, when not serving her clients, you'll find Carrie kayaking on the rivers of NSW, bushwalking or enjoying a glass of fine wine while playing board games with her beloved adult-children and husband   Ways to connect with Carrie:   Website: https://enlightenusolutions.com Link for gift offering on podcast: https://enlightenusolutions.com/7-ways-to-attract-high-quality-clients Youtube: https://youtube.com/@carriewallis FB: https://facebook.com/confident-prosperity LI: https://linkedin.com/in/carrie-wallis     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well and a gracious Hello to all of you, wherever you happen to be. I am your host, Mike hHngson, and this is unstoppable mindset. Today we get to chat with Carrie Wallis, and Carrie is a coach. She's a best selling author, she's a speaker and, oh my gosh, all sorts of stuff, and a person with a lot of life experience, which is, I think, what makes the work that she does so invaluable, because she knows what she's talking about, because she's been there and done that. And I know so many people who don't tend to work out of anything other than theory. So it's nice to have people who really have experience and can bring that to the forefront of what they work on and what they deal with. So I am always excited when we get to do that. So Carrie, I also should say that Carrie and I met through one of the patapalooza programs. You've heard me talk about pada Palooza before. It's a program that is put on by Cheryl, Kimberly, Crowe and Michelle Abraham. And those two ladies put together a program for people who are podcasters, who want to be podcasters, or people who want to be interviewed by podcasters. And actually, we just recently completed pot of Palooza number 11, but I met our guest, Carrie, at a previous pot of Palooza, and we finally were able to make connections, because she's a very busy person. So Carrie, after all of that, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Carrie Wallis ** 02:57 Thank you, Mike. It's an absolute pleasure and honor to be here. I love your work, and I love the title of this podcast, unstoppable mindset, because isn't that what it's all about? Let's be unstoppable. I love it   Michael Hingson ** 03:13 well, and our goal is to show people that they can be more unstoppable than they think they can. And all too often people give up, and all too often, they don't really spend the time thinking about it. They react and don't think so. It is a it's a problem, and the result of that is that they become very fearful. Things happen that they don't expect. They're afraid of them. And I think it was Mark Twain, among others, who said, like over 90% of the things that we're afraid of never really happen, and we're only afraid about them, because all we do is, what if, and we don't really ponder and think and and exercise our own brains. Boy, is that true when we hear politicians talk, at least around here today, and all of it weld over, yeah, and you know, it, it's, it isn't one, it's all of them we should really analyze for ourselves and then make choices. But that's another story. I've written a book that will be published in August, called Live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and walking in faith. And the whole idea behind the book is that I use lessons I learned from eight guide dogs and my wife service dog Fantasia. I use lessons that I've learned from them to talk about controlling fear and recognizing that in reality, you can learn to control fear and use it as a powerful tool, rather than letting it overwhelm or, as I put it, blind to you, and we really need to learn to to to take more control over how we deal with things. And I'm sure that's something that you talk about as a coach, I mean the various kinds of coaching things that you do. But let's, let's start at the early. Early world, if you will. So tell us about the the younger Carrie and the early Carrie.   Carrie Wallis ** 05:05 Wow. While the early Carrie was a very timid, very shy, very nervous girl, young woman, the experience growing up was I had parents, very typical of their generation, who had this belief that the role of a woman was in the home. To my father, at one point, actually said to me, your job is really my aspiration for you is to get married and have children and look after us as we age. You won't be surprised to hear that I rebelled against that, that role that was put upon me so that that was the early me, very timid, very shy, very little confidence. And it's taken a long time to work through that.   Michael Hingson ** 05:57 Well, it's, yeah, it's very unfortunate. I mean, the reality is that there are differences between men and women, and those things show up in various ways. But to just categorize women as you're supposed to get married and have children and now the taking care of us, I wish I had kids, because I tell everyone just, you know, as your children grow up, remember to remind them that their job is to support you in your old age. But   Carrie Wallis ** 06:25 that's, but that's I've made a point of telling, yeah, and I've made a point of saying to my children, that is not your job.   Michael Hingson ** 06:34 Ah, no, they're supposed to support you as you get older. You know, they're supposed to become rich enough to be able to do that is the whole point. It's all about. If they're not working hard enough to get rich enough to do that, work harder. But it's fun to tease about that, which is, of course, what I'm really doing. But you know, it's like when my wife and I were married, we decided not to have children. She was in a wheelchair her whole life, and she just thought it would be a little bit too much of a challenge to have kids and be in and she'd have to be in bed a whole lot of pregnancies just because of her situation. And so we said that we wouldn't have children, but we would spoil nieces and nephews, because at the end of the day we could just kick them out and shoot them home.   Carrie Wallis ** 07:24 That's the easy route. Yeah, yeah, that was it, but,   Michael Hingson ** 07:27 but the nieces and nephews turned out really well, but they're not going to support me, so oh well, that's okay, but they're they're good, they all grew up to be really good kids and now good adult. So it works out so you you were very timid and and had to work through a lot of that. What changed all of that? Oh my gosh. Or are you still timid?   Carrie Wallis ** 07:52 No, not at all. Not, not at all. I've learned how to step into my power. Maybe it might be helpful if I just give a little bit of my story. Sure, I found very early on, in my early 20s, that there are tools that you can learn that help you develop in my case, I learned how to communicate more effectively. I had a very lucrative position as a head of it in the corporate world. So in a business sense, I was very confident knew what I was doing, because I could learn it in the private world. Things were a little bit different. And I left that world, that corporate world, when we started our family, because I'd been a Lach key kid, and I hated coming home to a cold and empty house, and I didn't want that for my children, so I decided to leave the corporate world to be an at home mum, and because of that conditioning in my childhood. I didn't just want to be an at home mom, and I love being a mom, but I did need something else for me, so I started my own business, building on what I learned in terms of how I can how I built my confidence and learned to speak my truth and get my message out there in the IT world. And you can imagine, in those days, and we're talking about the 80s and 90s, the IT world was heavily male dominated. In fact, I can remember many, many meetings where I was the only, the only woman, and then we'd have a coffee break, and all the gents would disappear, and then we'd come back to the meeting, and decisions had been made that I wasn't party to because, of course, I couldn't join them in the gents facilities. So it was quite an interesting experience, and it was through those experiences that I learned. Learned to speak up, and I learned to speak my truth and hold my power and hold my place, and I took that into my own business because I wanted to support others, particularly women, but men too, to recognize that they can be unstoppable, that they can find the power within them. And there are certain techniques and processes, obviously, that I work through with my clients.   Michael Hingson ** 10:28 When did you when did you leave the corporate world? It   Carrie Wallis ** 10:32 was back at the end of the 90s, when we started our family. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 10:36 So what was the business that you started? Is that still the business that you have.   Carrie Wallis ** 10:41 It initially was a network marketing franchise, which was really a kind of like plunging into an ice cold bucket. It was not given, what I've just said about my timidity. You really had to be upfront, yeah, in that, in that world. So it was a real shock to my system. I learned a lot, I disliked a lot, and I evolved from that into deciding to coach people. I became qualified as a coach, and during that qualification, I realized that a lot of coaches have great skills, but they struggle to market themselves. I'm also a qualified counselor, and it's the same most help professions have excellent skills, but they are timid, dare I say, nervous, in terms of marketing themselves and finding clients. And I believe very strongly that everybody deserves to be able to access the support that they need when they need it, and to do that quality coaches and counselors and healers and help professionals need to be able to market themselves in a way that their ideal clients can find them. So I tapped into my IT background and what was then the evolving world of the internet, and helped started to help coaches and help professionals to find clients, and that's what my business is still today.   Michael Hingson ** 12:14 When my first book was published, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog in the triumph of trust at Ground Zero. Even then, I was told that we had to do a lot of the work to sell the book, that it isn't all going to be the publisher, and that didn't concern me, but at the same time, I thought, Well, why are why are we working with a publisher if they're not going to do some work. Well, they did do a lot of work, but what I found was that what it really ultimately meant was we had to work as a team. So I did do a lot of marketing. I did do a lot to make the book visible. They did arrange tours and speaking engaged, some speaking engagements and things like that, but we worked together as a team, but I had to be a part of the team to market it, and I know that a lot of people don't. I've been over the past few years, taking some courses regarding podcasting and other things, more to remember things that I've known for a while, but also to learn some some new things about podcasting. And one of the messages that consistently comes up is, as you're doing things with your podcast, especially if you want to monetize it, and I don't, because we do have some sponsors, but if you want to monetize it, or if you want to make courses or you want to coach, you need to recognize that you shouldn't be afraid to ask for money. You shouldn't be afraid to value what you're doing. And so many people just had no concept of how to do that, absolutely,   Carrie Wallis ** 13:59 absolutely, and in fact, heart centered coaches, healers, counselors, hire me to help them craft a message that is going to resonate and engage their audience and lead to sales. And a big part of this process and the work that I do is yes, the marketing and the marketing strategy side of things. It's also that internal world. Because the reason a lot of people struggle to market their services and ask for the sale is because of internal blocks that they have. There's kind of an internal barrier that somehow asking for money, asking for somebody to work with you, inviting them is somehow sleazy, and it's all in how you do it. And the work that I do is very much about having a natural conversation, and I call it nurturing to. A sale, and it's a big part of the process that I teach, because most amazing coaches struggle to make a profit, and it breaks my heart, because the world needs them, and it's because they're unsure how to connect with their audience in a way that makes the audience want to buy, because they doubt their ability to succeed, so I help them build lists of buyers and break free from those shackles of debt and doubt. And the bottom line is that I help people close 50% of their sales calls with confidence.   Michael Hingson ** 15:36 I as a public speaker, of course, am asked constantly, well, what do you charge? And I also know that when I began speaking publicly, my wife and I decided that we were going to do it, and I was going to do it because selling life and selling choice and selling inspiration and positive thinking is a whole lot more fun than selling computer hardware, which is what I had been doing in the World Trade Center, or managing a computer hardware sales force. So selling life and philosophy is a lot more rewarding. But I also decided I wasn't going to try to sell for the absolute highest number that I could possibly get every time that I wanted to not be what I had seen a lot of speakers do, which is they want to just charge the ultimate amount that they can get. They make life very difficult for the people who hire them to speak. I had I asked one person where I went to speak once, what's the most difficult speaker you ever had? And he told me that there was a woman who they signed and they agreed to the contract, so they had to follow through. She insisted that in the green room there had to be a brand new crystal champagne flute full of pink M and Ms. And I see and I know that some people do that to test people. I believe there is something to be said for trust. And so when people ask me for a fee, I will tell them, This is what I would like, but I'll work with your budget, and sometimes they still say, well, then, you know, with what you're asking, we just couldn't afford that, I said, but you haven't told me what your budget is, and we work through it. And I I do point out I can't I have to make a living. It's got to be a career. So I can't do it for 500 bucks or 1000 bucks, especially traveling across country, it would cost more to go there, and you wouldn't want that. So we work it out. But I'm also not opposed to and have no qualms about trying to earn a significant amount of money. And so when the pandemic hit, when everything stopped, and then my wife became ill in 2022 I didn't really travel and speak for three years, so we're getting back into it now, and I'm finding that people are responding very well when they get a speaker who they really feel wants to work with them. And in fact, I think I've gotten on some of these events more than I thought I was going to get, which is great.   Carrie Wallis ** 18:22 That's amazing, and that's the thing I mean. What I find is that there really are two issues. One is this internal view that many people hold of sales, sales and marketing are very often considered sleazy words when they don't have to be, no they absolutely don't have to be. It's a natural process. And there's two factors that influence that I found over the years. One is a lack of knowledge in terms of the tools that you can use in marketing. Marketing can be very confusing. There's a huge range of different options, and certainly in my early days of the business, after the network marketing, I was incredibly happy. Our family was very young. We were just enjoying life. There was a lot of love, there was a lot of laughter, and my business, really at that point, was little more than a hobby, until everything changed, and that's when my husband was diagnosed with cancer, and one short year later, he was dead, and I found myself without an inheritance. My children were still young. My business was little more than a hobby, and oh boy, I had to turn things around. And I had to turn things around really fast. And I realized that one of the issues was that the marketing that I had been doing. Was very scattered. I would try a little bit of this, a little bit of that, any I was very much jumping on any new shiny object that came into my sphere of awareness, and trying this. And that just does not work. Here's the thing, Mike, all marketing works, what you need to do. And what I discovered rapidly, because I had to, I was in that position, that I had to turn things around or face going back to the corporate world, which was something I bad I would never do. I had to, had to find clients, and find a way to have a consistent stream of clients. And I realized that one of the issues, because there are so many options, people don't know what to focus on. They all work, but they might not all work for you, correct? So a key piece that I've discovered that's missing from a lot of marketing, marketing programs, marketing trainings, is this missing piece, and that missing piece is what I call your marketing personality. You need to identify what's right for you. And I'll give you a story of one of my clients, Monica, when I first met her, she was using Instagram. She was creating Instagram reels to attract clients, not getting much success with it. And she told me that she actually hated making these reels, so what she ended up doing was finding any excuse under the sun not to do them. So they were very sporadic. Sometimes some weeks she would post, some weeks she wouldn't so there was inconsistency. She hated it. She was uncomfortable on camera, and that, of course, came across and pushed people away. What we realized is that that strategy was not right for her when she went through my marketing personality assessment and identified the strategy that was right for the woman that she was. She managed to turn things around, and within just a few weeks, she signed on her first new client in a year, and has gone on to have a consistent stream of leads and enroll new clients every week. So a key piece is identifying your marketing personality. I'm sorry, go ahead. I was just going to say, Am I saying that Instagram reels don't work? No, I'm simply saying that, for Monica, they didn't work because they didn't fit her personality, and that's the key.   Michael Hingson ** 22:43 So what was the strategy that you ended up working with her to create?   Carrie Wallis ** 22:47 Monica? Yeah, for Monica, she was very much. She loved writing. So for Monica, her strategy was blogging, and we developed a way to consistently generate leads from her blog. We talked, and she was able to promote her blog so that she got eyes on the blog, and from that, she generated leads. And it was a strategy that fit and suited her perfectly.   Michael Hingson ** 23:11 Yeah, which, which makes perfect sense, and you're right, not everything works for everyone, but the other part about it is you gotta try, and you have to recognize that if you don't try and you don't put yourself out there, you're never gonna find what works for you, and certainly working with people like you helps with that a lot. But the reality is that you shouldn't be afraid to sell yourself. And I use that term very deliberately, because I don't regard sales in any way as sleazy. Oh, there are sleazy sales people, but that's, again, the same thing. It's the person. It's not the concept. Exactly. That's what people have to recognize.   Carrie Wallis ** 23:58 Yeah, 100% Mike, I agree with you, and yes, I agree that we need to try and put yourself out there. I would also encourage you find your marketing personality, because that's going to save you a lot of heartache and a lot of wasted time and effort. And does it mean that there's only one strategy that will work for what every one person? No, not at all. Often, there's multiple strategies, but if you don't start from that point of understanding what's right for you, then you can waste an awful lot of time, an awful lot of money, and dent what is often a limited confidence or low confidence to start with. And that point, I totally agree that sales isn't sleazy at all. Sales is quite natural. Sales is simply taking action. And I use the word invite you invite people to take that next step with you. And when you do it in that way, and you have that natural conversation, and you have confidence in what you're saying. And how you're saying it, then you are going to draw people to you. And that's really the second big part of success for any solo business, any business actually, you need to know your marketing. You need to have a marketing strategy that's going to work for you, yes. And the second key part is you need to have the confidence to implement it. So I agree, if trying different strategies gives you confidence, then go for it. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 25:30 I one of the things that that I like to do, and I'm really driving it pretty hard, is when I send out emails to people saying, I am where you have a conference. Are you the right person would love to talk with you about it? If we get responses and they happen to include a phone number, I will call because I really think email overall is impersonal, and although it's it's important, and it is a significant part of what works for me, talking to somebody on the phone is, for me, always, really the thing that works the best because, for example, somebody emails back and says, Yeah, we'd love to explore you coming and speaking. What's your fee? Of course, that happens all the time, and I am trying to work out ways to get people to know me better as I explain what my fee is. If I have to do it an email, but if I get a chance and can speak with them on the phone, that is what I'd prefer to do, because then when they ask me what my speaking fee is, I say, Well, let me tell you what I'd really like and what I love to say is, Hillary Clinton got $250,000 for speaking to Goldman Sachs in 2016 and I think I speak better than she does. And people laugh. And I say, see you doing what everybody does. Nobody takes me seriously, but, you know, I take it, but I say, No seriously, and then we talk about it, but I like to get to know people, and they still may not decide that I'm the person for them. It does happen, but having a conversation, I think is for me, very important, because I'm very comfortable talking to people, and I know that if they get to know the kind of person I am, even if it isn't the right decision for this year or for the particular conference theme they have, I will be remembered, and and it works pretty well, and about 75% of the time I am able to have a phone conversation. I had one person today. We corresponded earlier in the week or late last week, and I said, Can we he? And he said the same thing. And I said, Can we chat? And he said, and I'm going to email back to me this morning, I'd really like to know something about your fee before we take the time to talk. And I know that if I just say this is what I would like, but I work with budgets. I'm not really giving enough information for people to be drawn a little bit more into my personality. And so I actually cracked it, crafted a different email to him, and I said up front, the same thing that I said that this is what I would like, but I work with budgets. But let me tell you why I say that. And then I actually gave them a series of of comments about how my wife and I decided why we do what we do, and why we craft the whole process of working with budgets, because not everyone can can do the same thing, and it's all about getting me to be known by him a little bit better. And when that works, and I hope it will, then at least we'll be able to have more of a conversation. Whether it goes anywhere, we'll see   Carrie Wallis ** 29:00 absolutely yeah. And I love, I love what you say there about conversation. And here's the thing, Mike, the the key I believe, to successful business is having a conversation initially, with complete strangers. Now that may sound a little bit strange, let me explain, from what I discovered, all the work that I've done, and certainly that work in the early years, and I took a gazillion marketing qualifications, certified as a copywriter in digital marketing, and what I discovered is that there really are just three pillars to profitable marketing, and the first one of those is connection, which is the point that you were talking about there Mike, and connection doesn't just have to be through a verbal conversation. And this is the point that I think a lot of people miss, that you can have connection. You can have a conversation. And even without the spoken word, right? That's what a successful marketing strategy is. And there are a ton of different ways to do that, but you need to create that connection. And I just, if I may, use a story that I just absolutely love and I was which explains really what connection is and why it's so important. I was reading an article a little while back about a maple tree farm in Hamilton, Ontario, and this the farm owner, named Anne, was struggling because the maple trees weren't reaching maturity, and she believed that it was because of connection. Let me explain a little bit more. The trees on her farm, There's a fungus called mycelium that grows in the ground between the roots of trees. It acts as a conduit for nutrients and water. Mycelium also has the ability to withdraw toxins from the soil, turning them into usable nutrients. And the issue that Anne was having was that although her farm was surrounded by forests, the trees on her farm, the roots and the all important mycelium, were not able to connect with the roots on the trees of the surrounding forest, because there were roads, there was a network of roads blocking that all important connection. And it occurred to me, it's exactly the way that it is for many business owners, coaches, healers, counselors, entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, you're surrounded by your ideal clients, unless you can connect with them in a meaningful way, you're going to just be just like those trees on Anne's maple tree farm. You're going to struggle to build a successful business.   Michael Hingson ** 31:58 Did she do something to fix the problem. She struggled   Carrie Wallis ** 32:03 because she had the network of roads which she had no control over. What she did, she found other ways to add more mycelium and nutrients into the trees for her on her farm, so that they reach maturation. But the point of this, well, the point, yeah, the point of the story is, find a way in your marketing to generate natural connections with your audience. Have that conversation. And as I say, my book title, from strangers to clients, kind of says it all. The conversation has to start with strangers. How do you have a conversation with strangers? Well, that's where marketing comes in. It may be social media, it may be blogging, it may be Instagrams, it may be YouTube, it may be using Search Engine Optimization. There's a ton of different ways. That's why you need to identify your marketing personality. There are ways to have that conversation, invite people into your world, so that then, through the medium of email, you can continue that conversation, right? Many, many people use email as a one way, a kind of push, which is, as you said, there, Mike, it's that's impersonal. There is a way that you can use and I teach my clients how to make their emails a two way conversation, right, so that it builds on the connection that was started when they were a stranger. They come into your world. You strengthen and deepen that connection. They begin to know you, they begin to love you. And most importantly, trust that you are the right person to help them with whatever the issue is that they're struggling with.   Michael Hingson ** 33:52 It's all about trust. And the other side of it is that as a speaker, I also have a responsibility to work with a client who says, I'm not sure whether you fit. Here's why, and for me to recognize when what I can offer works and when it doesn't. And I've had situations where people say, this is what we do. Can you provide a talk that speaks to that, and if it is really so totally something that is foreign to me, that I'm capable of saying, I think not, here's what I can do. Does that fit into your conference? And it may or may not, and I have actually ended up giving speeches to very industry specific conferences where they said, but all we ever have are industry specific people. And I've said things like and how excited do people get? What do you do to make them leave and remember the conference? Or. Um, something I've done a number of times is okay you have industry specific conferences, and you talk about all these things within your industry. What do you do to make sure that people with disabilities are involved? What do you do to talk about employing blind people and other people with disabilities and other things to make people think and sometimes that's been a very positive thing, and sometimes it hasn't been that's okay, though. It does always cause people, at least to think a little bit more   Carrie Wallis ** 35:27 Absolutely. And I think you hit the nail on the head there, Mike, that for me, the foundation to profit is relationship, genuine relationships, and that has to be built on trust. That has to be built on honesty and integrity. And if you act in a way that is honest and in tech in Integrity with your values, then you're going to build genuine relationships, and you'll draw people to you. And the final piece, if you like, is this confidence piece, because you need to be doing that with confidence. And if you think about it, why is confidence so important? I was going to ask it's a great question. It's it's critical. Think about it. Imagine this, would you rather be talking with somebody who is so nervous and insecure and lacks confidence that they have to focus on themselves the whole time and seek to prove themselves often at your expense. Or would you rather talk to somebody who was confident and comfortable in their own skin, in who they are, having an honest evaluation of themselves, not saying that they think that they're perfect. That's something else entirely, called arrogance, not talking about that at all. What I'm talking about is somebody who's so comfortable and recognize themselves for who they are confident and can convey themselves in a confident way so that their focus can be entirely on you and your problems, cheer leading you, supporting you. Who would you rather work with? I think for most people, it's going to be the second person, hey,   Michael Hingson ** 37:27 oh, I think so, by the way. And I told you my story about the University of New Hampshire and the guy with the pink M M's. My response to him was, well, I would never ask for that, because I believe I'm a guest. On the other hand, if cheese and crackers show up, I'll share them with you. And what's funny is they did show up, and we all sat around and had cheese and crackers before I spoke. So it was great, but, you know, I I didn't need them, but they were good, so it's okay. And you know, it's it is all about confidence? Is there one single factor that you think is more involved in promoting an individual's confidence?   Carrie Wallis ** 38:10 It's a great question. And the answer is, there are many, many, many factors that impact a person's confidence. And to really understand this, we need to understand the universal model of communication. Do you see what actually happens is, are what we think about the world, the views that we were talking about, how people view sales and marketing as difficult and sometimes sleazy. Those views stem from a whole range of different things. It might be comments that your parents have made. It might be experiences that you had as a child, experiences that you've had growing up, words that people have said. If you've grown up in an environment where you're told you're never going to amount to anything, then chances are, you have a belief that you're unworthy, that you're it's going to be difficult. You're going to have to work hard. If you've grown up in an environment where you've been told any any money that you earn is only worth it if you work incredibly hard, chances are that's what you're going to be doing. So your beliefs that you hold about yourself, about the world around you, your values. These all form what we call filters on the information that we receive, and they have a significant impact on our confidence, because if those filters are telling us that you have to work extremely hard, that you're unworthy of success, that you're never going to amount to anything, then guess where your confidence is going to be? Rock bottom. Rock bottom. Absolutely. So there's a lot of factors that feature in how confident somebody is. So the key is to identify. What those factors are. I call it my 3r process. You need to recognize what those filters are. How you filter information around you, because those filters determine what information you take in see. In any one given moment, there's a gazillion bits of information around us, but in that same moment, our brain can only process tiny, tiny fraction of that. So how does the brain decide what information to take in? Well, that is based on the filters that you have, which comes from those beliefs, those values, your life experiences, etc, etc. And the key to this. The reason why this is so important is because understanding what those filters are. Those filters create a picture in your mind of a situation. So if you believe that it's going to be hard to sell your services, that's the picture that you have. That picture will impact your state, and that will impact how you behave. So if you think it's going to be hard to sell your services, it will be. It's going to be exactly. It's like Henry Ford said all those years ago. Whether you believe you can or you believe you can't, you're probably right, and it's 100% true, it's   Michael Hingson ** 41:25 the same thing that when you come to a fork in the road, take it, you know, but you're absolutely right. And Henry Ford was right. I was blessed. I was born two months premature, and I was in a pure oxygen environment, in an incubator for a while, and that caused the retina not to develop properly. But my parents didn't discover that I was blind until about four months of age, but when they decided that I had to be examined to find out, and it turned out, I was blind, the first thing the doctor said was, send him to a home. Don't keep him because no blind child can ever grow up to be a member of society and be productive in any way, shape or form, and he'll suck up all the love that you have for your older son. So you really shouldn't keep him around. And my parents said absolutely not. He's going to grow up to do whatever he chooses to do, and they brought me up with that kind of environment, so I was blessed. And I know a lot of people who are not, but my parents were so far ahead of so many things by doing that. Yeah,   Carrie Wallis ** 42:33 you incredibly, incredibly lucky. And I had I shared that my husband died of cancer five years after he died, I was diagnosed with exactly the same form of cancer that had killed him. Can imagine the impact that that had on my children. They were still young in their early teens at that point, and cancer had a really interesting impact for me. I shared that I started off very timid, very shy. Wouldn't really say boo to a goose. Worked through that by learning the techniques I learned what I needed to do in the world of it, so that I had confidence that I could do it, and then the communication skills to be able to speak my truth what happened when I had cancer, and particularly through 18 months of chemo and radiation and I lost all my hair. Is that my confidence took a massive hit, because I was thinking, Well, geez, if, if people see me, they're going to think she can't look after herself. How can she help us? So the confidence absolutely my confidence absolutely plummeted, and then it really hit me. It was kind of like a wet fish slapping me across the face. I had this realization that deep down, I still held this belief that I was unworthy of success, and that's why, although I turned my business around when my husband died, and it certainly achieved success. It kind of was, was like a feast and famine. I'd have success, and then it would fall back. I'd earn good income, and then it would fall back. Some months I'd have $8,000 days, and other months would be, you know, maybe I'd struggle to have a 800 Buck days, $800 days. And I realized that this it was deeply embedded, this sense of unworthiness. And it wasn't until I applied and realized and worked through these 3r that I was able to get rid of that deeply held, deeply rooted belief that I was unworthy of success, and from there, my business is absolutely skyrocketed.   Michael Hingson ** 44:46 And so what are the three R's? Well, they are   Carrie Wallis ** 44:50 the first one recognize we've been talking about that recognize those filters that you have, the values that you hold. The second one is to release a. Here's the thing, most coaching, most counseling, most therapy, type work, most help type work. Works at the conscious level. If you don't believe you're worthy, believe you're worthy, well, that's just too simplistic, and life isn't like that. What you need to do is get really deep into the unconscious mind, because that's actually what controls 90% of what you're doing. See, when we're born, our conscious mind and our unconscious mind are in alignment. And it's kind of like, I like to think of it as a freshly turned rich soil. And it's experiences that you have that those seeds of doubt get sown these and those seeds get watered and they grow into beliefs and these weeds of doubt and disbelief and those values that you hold about yourself and what you think about yourself, all those factors that we were talking about earlier, they the weeds grow and strengthen, and the roots entangle, and it's just like if you're gardening. And I'm not a gardener, but I have a colleague who's very keen gardener, and she tells me, if you cut a weed off at the surface, it's going to come back. And that's what happens with most coaching. It cuts off the weed of disbelief, that value of you know, I'm not worthy, I'm sales is going to be hard, all those thoughts that you have, all those beliefs that you have, but they're going to come back. It's not going to be sustainable. What you need to do, and the second R is release. You need to release from the root. It's like plucking the weed out from the root and all the entangled weeds. So you really need to get down deep into where and there's often a chain of events and a sequence of situations that create that deep rooted, deep seated belief. And the release process that uses quantum physics, quantum release process actually gets down and really plucks those weeds out from the root. Once you've done that, the third are you're able to reclaim. You can reclaim your identity, because you see what happens Mike is from all those weeds of disbelief, those negative values that people develop about themselves, we put masks on I know I did, and they're protective. I put layer upon layer of masks to protect ourselves. If somebody's telling you you're not going to amount to much, you need to do something to protect yourself. So the third R is reclaim through getting right down to the root of these issues, plucking out from the root so that you can really identify and find out who you really are, your authentic self, if you like. And when you do that, you're then able to implement those three pillars for profit, for your marketing, which is connection, which is the one we've talked about. The second is clarity. And the third, of course, is confidence, which is what we're talking about here.   Michael Hingson ** 48:32 You said something earlier. I can't resist asking you about what happens when you say boo to a goose.   Carrie Wallis ** 48:42 I don't goose? What do you think? I've   Michael Hingson ** 48:45 never heard that before.   Carrie Wallis ** 48:47 Maybe that's an English phrase. It is, but that's okay, but   Michael Hingson ** 48:51 I don't know. Geese are pretty stubborn. We actually had a Canadian gray lag goose that lived in our area when we lived in Northern California, and silver thought he was a duck. Every day we would feed the ducks. We had bread. And one day I was doing this after we moved in, and suddenly there was this larger beak that joined, and nobody ran away in a turn. And I called my wife. I called Karen, who came to the door in her wheelchair, and she said, there's a goose there. Well, it turns out he was very used to people, and he was very friendly. I would never want to say boo to him, because I wouldn't want to scare him or anything like that. But he was very friendly, and he ate bread with everyone else, and was was very nice. And lived for several years with us, and I think eventually passed away, because when we met him, he was 18, but I've never said boo to a goose, so I don't know that's interesting,   Carrie Wallis ** 49:48 isn't it? That's the point, isn't it? Many people would be so timid and so worried about the consequences of saying boo to said goose. Yeah, and.   Michael Hingson ** 49:59 Instant, yeah, well, this goose loved to get petted, and so when he was eating and all that, if I had an empty hand, I'd pet some of the ducks and I'd pet him, and he was very happy with it. And then we lived in an area where there were a lot of lagoons that connected all the homes and pathways and waterways between the lagoons. And whenever he came by, he honked, and we all talked to him so but that was a good experience. But I know that there are a lot of geese that are not necessarily so friendly, but   Carrie Wallis ** 50:32 you saying that, Mike just reminds me of a quote from Albert Einstein, and I'm not probably going to remember it exactly, but it was along the lines a fish are great swimmers. If you tell a fish that it has to climb a tree, it's going to spend its life thinking it's stupid. Now, I know I've misquoted that, but you   Michael Hingson ** 50:56 get but I know what you're saying. Yeah. Well, it's like he also said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing every time and expecting something different to happen. Absolutely. I might have to go find some geese and say boo, just to see what we get. Let me know. I was going to ask you about quantum release, because you you use that in in your bio, and tell me a little bit more about what that is,   Carrie Wallis ** 51:26 that it's a very deep process. And this is where I am   Michael Hingson ** 51:30 being having a master's degree in physics. It fascinates me. Go ahead, beautiful.   Carrie Wallis ** 51:36 The this is where I differ from many, coaches, because I ask the questions that go deeper. I ask the questions that other coaches don't ask. The whole process goes deeper. And as I was saying earlier, you need to not just work at the conscious level, at the thoughts that you have that's that's too simplistic and it's not going to stick. You need to get deep into the unconscious mind and the quantum release process. And I'm not going to give all my secrets away. No, no, don't do that. That's That's what that process does. It uses a process known as reverse mirroring, and in doing that, it releases the hold that the mind has on emotions that are holding you back, beliefs that you have and the most importantly, decisions that you've made about yourself as a result of those beliefs. Got it?   Michael Hingson ** 52:32 Well, tell me what's one thing that you wish you had known that you know now. Oh my God, know when you started Yes, either way of saying, Bucha goose,   Carrie Wallis ** 52:46 there's many, I think the key just bringing it back to marketing, specifically the one thing that I wish I had known when I started out, and particularly in those Early days when I was struggling after my husband died, was the importance of your marketing message. You need to be clear yourself what your marketing message is. And there's a lot of components that we don't have time to go into today that make up that message. But you need a clear message, and it needs to be consistent throughout all of your marketing. And of course, that leads into the three pillars that I've talked about, that all important connection, building that relationship. And it all starts with your message. Have a message that resonates with your audience, engages your audience, lets them know you, so that they can love you, and as we were saying, trust that you're the right person to help them. So that's really what I wish I'd known then my message was very scattered. So yes, get a marketing message that is clear, because everything else will stem from that.   Michael Hingson ** 54:07 So it's a growth process in every sense of the word. We were married 40 years when my wife passed away in November of 2022 and it was amazing to me the things that people started to say, things like, Well, are you going to move from where you are? Because this was your your house together, and she's not here now, and you need to move on. And the immediate reaction I had was, maybe I should be angry at all these people, but then what kicked in as soon as I thought that was no, you have to make decisions, but you don't need to be angry at people just because their perception is a little bit different. And I said, for example, no, I don't need to move on. What I need to do is to move forward, because if I move on, I'm going to forget about Karen, and I will never forget about Karen after 40 years of marriage, and that's when I also adopted. The the philosophy that she is watching, and if I ever misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I gotta be a good kid, but, but moving on isn't right. Moving forward is absolutely correct. And when people talk about moving and going to a different home, I say, Do you know how hard it is to move? And I have a 3.95% mortgage rate. Why would I want to move? We built this house. This is our house, and it's as much a testament to to her as it is to me, and we have solar and so many things that make this a very comfortable place. I would be the wrong thing to move, but it's interesting the perceptions that people suddenly get when something like you lose a spouse happen.   Carrie Wallis ** 55:44 Absolutely, absolutely. It's the reason I learned counseling, actually, and qualified as a specialist grief counselor, because of my experience and struggling to cope with my own grief and to support my children through their grief. And there's a lot of MIS talk and misnomers around what grief is, and it never leaves you. You grow around it.   Michael Hingson ** 56:10 Yeah, exactly right. Karen is always going to be here. 40 years of marriage and memories is a wonderful thing, and I can never object to that, and it's all about the relationship and the trust that the two of us had together, absolutely, and that's an honor that I take very seriously by any standard. What? How would you define success?   Carrie Wallis ** 56:40 Success? It's a it's an interesting word, isn't it? And I think if you asked 100 people, you'd get 100 different definitions of success. For me, success means choice, because I know so many people, and certainly clients, when they first come to me, are struggling, feeling trapped. Very often they're in jobs that they dislike and they want to get out of them, and yet they don't know how to So success, to me, is choice, empowered choice, and to make an empowered choice, you need to what I was saying earlier, know your true identity, know you are at your core, so that the choices that you make are going to be the right ones for you. So that's how I would define success.   Michael Hingson ** 57:36 Do you find that you said something interesting, that that I'm just a little curious about people might, for example, really dislike their job and they want something different. Do you find that when you work with people, sometimes they come to realize, well, maybe it's really not such a bad job. It's my attitude that needs adjusting.   Carrie Wallis ** 57:53 It's often the people that are drawn to me are people that have a burning desire to support others through health professions, coaches, counselors, healers, etc, and they want to have the freedom that running their own business gives. Those are the people that I tend to attract. So generally, they're stuck in jobs. They're working for someone   Michael Hingson ** 58:18 else. Yeah, and okay, that makes, makes perfect sense, and but you're able to guide them. And hopefully, as part of that, you're able to guide them that if they're going to make a transition, there's a process and a way to do that absolutely, because you don't, you don't want to burn bridges either.   Carrie Wallis ** 58:36 No, absolutely. And the key is the points that we've been saying, and the pillars of marketing, profitable marketing, which leads to a profitable business, of course, a connection, clarity. You need to know what your message is. That comes back to that message point, the point about messaging I was saying earlier, know your marketing personality, implement all the steps, the steps, there's a process, and have the confidence really go inwards so that the confidence you have is unshakable. I'll just share quickly a story that really emphasizes this point, that I was talking to a colleague who went to a motivational weekend by a very, very globally famous individual, and I'm not going to say, say their name, and she came away from this weekend, and yes, she was motivated, and she was Whoa, yes, this is great. I'm, I'm, it's worked. I'm, I'm energized. I and she got into action. And then about a week, maybe a week and a half later, her her old patterns started to return. Her old habits took over, and she realized, and it emphasizes what I was talking about earlier, that you can't just change something at the surface level. It needs to be deep in the unconscious mind to be able to have that COVID. Confidence that's going to be unshakable and move you forward continuously. So very much. And I'm thinking of one of my clients, Susan, who, when she first came to me, her boss was probably a tyrant. Is Not, not too, not too harsh, a word, I think, to describe her, from what Susan was telling me, she hated her job. She felt really tough. She loved what she did. She just hated doing it for this organization, and she Yeah, she tried moving jobs, and she realized that what was really true for her was running her own business. And so through the work that we did, which was mostly for Susan, all about confidence and getting into that deep unconscious mind, so that she believed that she actually could do it by herself, and she's gone on, and she now has a multi million dollar business. So, yeah, very, very important. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:57 you talked about that motivational person, that very famous person, you know, that person does, I'm sure, help a lot of people, and maybe, if nothing else, with your client, after a week when some of the old patterns started to return, at the same time, she started to think about that, and so she came to You, and you are able to work through it. But, yeah, motivational speakers oftentimes, you know, you can only do so much in the weekend. And it's, it's really a matter of going further, but at the same time, that's not the end all. It still is really up to you to to make the change. It's, it's, you know, the old psychology joke, how many people does it take to change a light bulb? And the answer is, none. The light bulb has really got to want to change absolutely right? And that really is the point. So even if the motivational speaker or person got her to think about it more, then that was a blessing.   Carrie Wallis ** 1:02:04 Well, I think you're right. I think the key to any change is awareness. And we have, you know, the cycle of change, and it starts with something. It can be a big thing. It can be a small thing, but for somebody to want to change, there's got to be something in their life that's not working, and the second step is for them to realize and recognize what that is, and as you say, want to change absolutely critical so and she Yes, she's got some useful strategies that she's been able to apply with the deep work that she's done so that it's that combination, but it all starts from awareness 100% Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:47 well, this has been super and I'm glad we did it, and we should probably do another one in the future if you'd like to do that. But this, I think was wonderful. I learned a lot, and I hope that everybody listening has learned a lot because you've offered a lot of good nuggets of wisdom that that really can help people to recognize, in various ways, how they can be more unstoppable than they think they can.   Carrie Wallis ** 1:03:14 Absolutely it's been a delight. Well, I want   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:18 to thank you for for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening. This has been absolutely a pleasure for me, and I'm honored that you listened wherever you are. Please. We'd love to hear from you. If you want to comment about what Carrie and I talked about today, please do so you can reach me through email. At Michael H, I m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, or you can also go to my podcast page, which is w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael Hinkson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S o, n, again.com/podcast, and wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value your ratings, and we love five star ratings, so please do that and let us know your thoughts. Carrie, if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   Carrie Wallis ** 1:04:15 Absolutely, I think you're going to put some links below. We are the podcast, you can find me on my website, which is enlighten you solutions.com. E n, l, I G, H t, e n, U S, o l, u t, I O N, s.com, and there's a gift that I'm delighted to offer your listeners Mike, called seven ways to attract high quality clients. And I believe the link will be below the podcast. You can find me on YouTube as well. If you go to at Carrie Wallace, youtube.com/at, Carrie Wallace, all running together, C, a double R, i e, w, a double L, I S, you'll find me there, and there's my email and contact details. I'm on link. In, and I'm on Facebook as well. If you search my name, if you Google my name, you'll see the book, and you'll see all the links.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:06 Well, super and again, I really am glad that you're here. I'm very disappointed that you didn't have a gift about how to say Bucha goose, but that's maybe I'll write one. We're going to get fixated on that, aren't we? You are. Oh yeah, that was but it was so much fun. But I want to thank you for being here and again. Thank you all for listening with Carrie, especially thank you for being here and talking with us for so long and giving us so much of your time.   Carrie Wallis ** 1:05:31 You're very welcome. It's been an absolute pleasure. Mike, thank   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:39 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.