Podcasts about accessibe

I have had the honor and pleasure to have on the Unstoppable Mindset podcast many healers, thought leaders and practical intelligent people who have generously given their time and insights to all of you and me during this podcast. This episode, our guest Kay Hutchinson adds a great deal to the knowledge base we all have gained from our other guests. Kay's childhood was interesting in that she is half Japanese and half African American. This race mixture provided Kay with many life challenges. However, her parents taught her much about life and understanding so she was able to work through the many times where people treated her in less than an equal manner. Also, Kay being the child of a military father had the opportunity to live in both the United States and Japan. She gained from this experience a great deal of knowledge and experience about life that she willingly shares with us.   After college Kay went into teaching. Just wait until you hear what class she first had to teach, but she persevered. Through all her life she has felt she could assist people in healing others as you will hear. After teaching for a few years, she decided to make energy healing a full-time profession.   Along the way she fell in love and married. Unfortunately, as she will tell us, she discovered that her husband exhibited extreme narcissistic behaviors which eventually lead to a divorce. I leave it to Kay to tell the story.   Kay offers some pretty great insights and lessons we all can use to center ourselves. I very much hope you like what she has to say.       About the Guest:   Imagine the exhaustion, anxiety and utter soul depletion that results when you are in a narcissistic relationship.  Then, imagine being told that you have to go through years of counseling and perhaps even take anti-depressants to begin reclaiming your identity, health, emotional and financial stability, and restore your ability to experience God' joyousness. That's the journey that Kay Hutchinson was on in 2019 when she divorced a narcissist who dragged her through a nearly year-long court battle that almost destroyed her 15-year energy medicine practice where she specialized in helping empathic women make their sensitivities their super powers and left her with relentless shingles outbreaks and collapsed immunity. Through the journey of rebuilding her health and life, she discovered  the one thing that no one was talking about in terms of the recovery from narcissistic abuse…that narcissists damage the five energy tanks that rule our physical, emotional, financial and soul health. Yet no one was showing women how to repair themselves energetically.  But,  without repairing those tanks, women suffer for years with anxiety, depression, exhaustion and a multitude of debilitating physical health challenges. So, Kay created the first medical qi gong recovery program for narcissistic abuse survivors that use 5 minute energy resets to help women effortlessly re-ignite their body, mind and soul potential. For example, Kay's client Donna, whose health was devastated by the stress of a narcissistic marriage, was able to use the resets to reverse stage 5 kidney damage in only 90 days, preventing Donna from going on dialysis and empowering her to reclaim her life. With newfound health, Donna was able to rebuild her realty business and remarry. Her pastor husband and her are now building a successful ministry helping others. Kay is here today to share more inspirational stories like this and delve into the topic of energy vampirism –how we lose energy to toxic people and more importantly—what we can to stop the drain and become unstoppable in reclaiming our body, mind and soul potential when our energy has been decimated by a narcissist.  Ways to connect Kay:   Get Your Mojo Back Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/get-your-mojo-back-quick-resets-to-help-empathic-women/id1699115489 Website: https://www.aikihealing.com/ Free Healing Session: https://www.aikihealing.com/free-healing-for-narcissistic-abuse-priority-list Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aikihealingresets/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AikiHealingResets/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@aikihealing   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And as I've explained, the reason we word it that way is that diversity typically doesn't tend to involve disabilities, so inclusion comes first, because we don't allow people to be inclusive unless they're going to make sure that they include disabilities in the conversation, but mostly on the on the unstoppable mindset podcast, we don't deal as much with inclusion or diversity. We get to deal with the unexpected, which is anything that doesn't have to do directly with inclusion or diversity. And so today, in talking to Kay Hutchinson, we have a situation where we are going to talk about unexpected kinds of things, and that's what we're really all about. So Kay Hutchinson is our guest today. She has quite a story about, well, I'm not going to tell you all about it, other than just to say it's going to involve narcissism and it's going to involve a whole bunch of things. Kay is a podcaster. She's a coach, and she does a number of things that I think are really well worth talking about. So without further ado, Kay, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Kay Hutchinson ** 02:40 Oh, Michael, every cell in my body is happy to be here today. I'm so thrilled. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 02:47 good. I just want to make sure all the cells are communicating with you, and they're all saying good things they   Kay Hutchinson ** 02:52 are. Oh, good, absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 02:56 Sell by cell. Let's, let's do a roll call and see how long that takes. But there we go. Well, I'm really glad that you are here. I'd like to start by kind of learning about the early K, growing up and all that sort of stuff. It's always fun to start that way, sort of like Lewis Carroll, you know, you start at the beginning. But anyway, tell us about the early k, if you would.   Kay Hutchinson ** 03:19 Oh my gosh, I'd love to and Michael, what's exciting to me about that, you know, with your show really focusing on diversity, when I look back to my childhood and I think about the various experiences that I had growing up as a biracial child in the 1960s I am half Japanese and half African American, against the backdrop of Malcolm X and at the time Martin Luther King, and all of this different flow of change was happening as I came into the world, and I was born on the island of Honolulu, Hawaii, feeling very much connected to the vibrancy of that space and those islands and that war of the power of the volcanoes, and I found myself just this really hyper sensitive young child where the world came in at me through all of my five senses, to the point where often I was very overwhelmed, but I was really blessed to have parents that understood this child's going to have a lot coming at her in the world, being what the world is at the time, and coming from different two different cultures that I was really well nourished and really was taught by parents who had embraced meditation and mindfulness as a way of really helping me calm my nervous system when I was little. So I really had this beautiful childhood of being able to bounce between different cultures, the US culture, and also living in Asia, but also coming face to face with things like racism face. Things like messages on a very large societal level that I did not belong anywhere, that I didn't fit, and so often I felt that the world outside of the safe space of my immediate family was a world that was very much overwhelming, and felt as if it was not for me, that it was not very nourishing. So very early on, I had to learn how to kind of begin regulating and begin navigating a world that wasn't necessarily set up for someone like myself. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:35 yeah, it's it's interesting when you and you certainly have an interesting combination of parents, half African American and half Japanese, definitely, two different cultures in a lot of ways, but at the same time, they both recognize the whole concept of mindfulness. They recognize the value of meditation and finding a calming center, I gather is what you're saying.   Kay Hutchinson ** 06:00 Absolutely, my father was one of the soldiers that right after he came into the service in the 1950s that got assigned to Japan and was in one of the first all African American military police units. It had never existed before. And so through his journey there, he actually ended up studying a lot of different forms of martial arts, as well as some of the healing arts like acupressure. So a lot of times people say, Okay, you practice Chinese energy medicine. Oh, that must have come from your mother's side of the heritage. But actually, the first exposure to healing and energy came from my dad, because he taught us martial arts, and he taught us actually some of the flows of energy on how to heal the body, because it's that idea that if you spar with a person, you're responsible for having to heal them if you injure them through the sparring. So that was like my first exposure to really learning the system of energy medicine. And then on my mom's side, it's interesting, she grew up with parents that were Buddhist and Taoist in their philosophy as well. So but at a very young age, in her late teens and early 20s, she was very curious about Christianity, and began attending churches that were of a Christian nature, and that's how she ended up meeting my father. And so this beautiful path of spirituality, learning about energy and understanding how to navigate through a world that wasn't necessarily built for me, was really at core of how we moved as a family, and I think that really formed the basis for developing a certain type of sensitivity to the nuances of differences and making those differences into superpowers. And that's really at the heart of what I do, not only as a healer, but and in my early career as a special education teacher, that really was one of the things that allowed me to recognize the value and power of children and help them to optimize their growth and   Michael Hingson ** 08:11 development. So where did you grow up? Where did you live? So   Kay Hutchinson ** 08:15 I lived in both countries. My father was Army, so we would spend some time in the US, primarily Texas, but we also lived part time in California, and then we would bounce back over, over the pond to Okinawa, Japan. So I had a lot of fond memories of both countries growing up.   Michael Hingson ** 08:33 That's, that's pretty cool. And it's, you know, I find that people who come on this podcast, who have had the joy of having the ability to live or having lived in different kinds of environments, do bring some very interesting perspectives on, on each of those countries and just on, on life in general. And they tend to, I think, have a overall better perspective on what life is all about, because they've seen more of it. And if they take the time to really think about life and all the things that they've seen, they come to value all of that a lot more   Kay Hutchinson ** 09:18 Absolutely it is that process of being able to really delve deep into the subtle uniqueness of life through different lenses. And when you travel, and when you get that opportunity to experience cultures directly, and you also have, you know, a heritage that's very rich on an ethnic level, you know, it really does allow the brain to see the world through many different facets. And I think that that really is what's needed in a world where, when we look at what's happening globally, there's rapid, rapid change. So those of us who have that experience of being able to bounce through all of these different experiences and take multiple facets. Because we end up being able to digest and are able to move through those experiences without becoming so overwhelmed, as so many people are experiencing today, with all of the quantum leap changes that are happening, changes happening so rapidly in our world.   Michael Hingson ** 10:16 Oh, we are, and we're we're exhibiting, of course, in this country, with a new president or a new old President, we're seeing a lot of changes, and I think history is going to, at some point, decide whether those changes or the things that that he's bringing about are good or not. And I think it's you can take a lot of different viewpoints on it. Oh, it's bad because he's doing this and he's doing that, and it's good because he's doing this and he's doing that, but I think ultimately, we're going to see, and I'm I think he's made some choices that are interesting, and we and we'll see how it all goes. But I wish that he had had more of a worldview. I think that's the one thing that I see, that he has not had as much of a true worldview as would probably be valuable,   Kay Hutchinson ** 11:11 absolutely, and that's, excuse me, that's really a concern in leadership, right? And how do we support when someone hasn't had that vastness, right? It then comes to us to really bring to the table the perspectives that hopefully will trickle over into influencing and supporting energetically. And here's that thing, because sometimes we can think, Oh, well, you know, the President's way up here, and what can I as an ordinary person, do to help bring more balance to that leadership. Well, I truly believe that energetically, we're all connected, so that when each of us is embracing this more multifaceted perspective, and we're not just embracing it in our brains, but actually living that, integrating that into how we move. We create a energy that ripples out, that absolutely touches every other person on the planet. And why would it not also touch, you know, people in positions of political leadership. So I believe that when we band together in that way, we do create change.   Michael Hingson ** 12:15 Well, I think we all are connected, and I think that is something that most people haven't recognized, and the more they don't and the more they decide they're an entity in of themselves, and there isn't that kind of interconnectionalism, the more it's going to hurt them more than anything else. But hopefully, over time, people will realize that we are all interrelated. Gandhi once said that interdependence is and ought to be as much the ideal of man, I guess, and woman, we should say. But, you know, he was, he was quoting back in the day, much as much the ideal of man as a self sufficiency. And I think that interdependence is all around us, and interdependence is something that we truly do need to recognize. And embrace, because no one really is an island into themselves,   Kay Hutchinson ** 13:08 and that's true, and this is where the challenge is. When we begin to start looking at energy, vampirism and narcissism, we're dealing with individuals who do not have that capacity to really embrace the fact that they are energetically and importantly connected to other people. They're disconnected from that. So how they're moving through life becomes very centered, focused on only their perspectives and their experiences. And that's where it can be really dangerous, because when we're in the midst of people that are moving like that, we may not realize that we're actually losing energy to them. And so it's really important to take a look more than ever, who is in your world? Are you surrounded by people that have an understanding of the value of connecting in with one another and truly having a fair exchange of energy. Or are you amid people that may be pulling energy from you in a one sided way because they have wounds that are preventing them from really being full in their own perspectives and in their own energy fields.   Michael Hingson ** 14:24 Well, and when you mentioned people who don't have the capacity, I wonder if it's true that they don't have the capacity, or they've chosen to reject it.   Kay Hutchinson ** 14:35 Well, I think that's the difference, right there. Michael, when they've chosen to reject it. That's not pathological in terms of the clinical definition of narcissism, that could apply to anyone that has simply made that choice. But part of the clinical definition of narcissism is it is a person who doesn't have the choice they're not capable because of early trauma in their life. During the period of time when they were attaching and beginning energetically to form bonds with other people, as well as psychologically and cognitively, disruption happened or is no longer a choice for them. They're no longer able to say, I want to be connected or not connected. There is a disruption on a trauma level that prevents them from being connected.   Michael Hingson ** 15:21 Is there a cure for that? Though, can people reverse that process?   Kay Hutchinson ** 15:26 So as far as I know, in Searching the Literature and working with colleagues, and I also have background in psychotherapy too, there is not, quote, unquote, a cure for that, but the damage is fairly deep. It's a matter of helping those individuals to manage the facets of their narcissism to minimize the damage. But are they ever disconnected from the intimacy that we have energetically with other human beings that tends to still be pervasive, even with long term therapy, psychotherapy, yeah, well,   Michael Hingson ** 16:03 you, I know, and we'll get to it. Have had some direct exposure and involvement with narcissism, but let's go back a little bit talking about you. Where did you go to college? I assume you did go to college.   Kay Hutchinson ** 16:17 Yeah, absolutely. I went to the University of Texas, at Austin, okay. And then later, for graduate school, I went to the California Institute of integral studies for counseling, psychotherapy, but also longevity Institute for all the energy medicine training. And I loved, I loved that they were the only program at the time in energy medicine, medical Qigong. They had a relationship with the head of the school. Was the head of Stanford's Integrative Medicine Department, and they were doing lots of things with looking at how energy healing impacts cancer and also how it affects the role of fertility. There was a famous Stanford IVF program, and what they were looking at was the idea that when women partook of Qigong and mindfulness techniques, they were able to successfully get pregnant at a higher level than if they did not. So it was a school that really embraced not only the science of energy, but also the spirituality of it as well. How do we develop and grow as beings that are souls in the world   Michael Hingson ** 17:27 and dealing with the practical application of it? Absolutely,   Kay Hutchinson ** 17:30 absolutely. So I often say that it was the place where shamanism met hardcore science and together, and that's kind of a little bit of what people experience, Michael, when they work with me, because I'm one of the few holistic practitioners that says, come in the door and bring me your actual medical data. I want to see the scans. I want to see your blood work data before we ever do an herbal formula, before I ever prescribe a set of medical Qigong resets. I really kind of want to see what we're looking at and what's happening with you on a quantifiable level, so that we can measure changes as we go along and process a few Sure   Michael Hingson ** 18:08 well. So you mentioned earlier Special Education song. What did you do after college?   Kay Hutchinson ** 18:14 So, in college, you know, I was studying cognitive science as well as special education. I was fascinated by how people learn, and so my career began as a special education teacher. The first assignment I had, though as a teacher, was teaching third grade math because I began working for a district mid season, and they didn't have a lot of different openings, and they said, well, Kay, we would love to have you in the school, but the special ed position will not be available till later. Would you come aboard teaching math? Now, little did anyone know, Michael, that I was actually math phobic. I was that kid that when I had to take math and calculus and things in college, had my head in my lap. Oh, I can't do this. This is just not my thing. And so to be asked to teach third grade, it was horrifying to me on one level, but then I said, you know, everything happens for a reason to start my teaching career, and the thing that I'm most fearful of could be a really good learning opportunity for me. What   Michael Hingson ** 19:14 did you learn from that? Oh my gosh, I learned that   Kay Hutchinson ** 19:17 the most important thing is creativity, because I had to say, okay, where, where am I starting? These kids were behind. They were third graders. They were behind in learning multiplication. And so I said, You know what? There's a method to teach multiplication with cubes and blocks and manipulatives that actually leads them to being able to do algebra. So I'm going to be creative and use these different tools to not only teach basic multiplication, but my goal for them is, when they leave me, they will have the basis for being able to do simple algebra problems in third grade. And the fact, Michael, that these kids, when we talk about diversity, inclusion, we. In a community where they were drive by shootings were in a community where other teachers did not believe that just because these children were children of color, that they did not have the same abilities and capabilities and potential to be able to go on to school at Harvard or Yale. It made me even more determined to say, I'm going to teach them a really higher level skill that everybody else will say is beyond their developmental level to prove that these children are just as capable as anybody else. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 20:31 and, and the reality is, they are. They have the capability, and it is something that just has to be encouraged. I know that when I was doing my student teaching. I was getting a master's degree in physics, so I did a little bit with math now and then, needless to say, and I was in the class one day, I was teaching eighth graders. I'm sorry, I was actually teaching high school freshman, but there was an eighth grader in the class, and he asked a question. It wasn't, I don't even remember what the question was, but it wasn't a hard question. But for some reason, I blanked out and didn't know what the answer was. But what I said to him was, I don't know the answer. I should, but I don't. I'm going to look it up and I'll come back tomorrow and tell you what the answer is. Is that okay? And he said, Yeah. When the class was over, my master teacher, who was the football coach, also came up, and he said, that was the most wonderful thing you could do. He said, kids will always know it if you're blowing smoke, if you're honest with them, and if you tell them the truth, you're going to gain a lot more respect. He said, That was the best thing that you could have possibly done with Marty's question. Well, the next day, I came back in with the answer. I went and looked it up, and it was as easy as it should have been, and I should have known. But I came in and I and when the class was all seated, I said, All right, Marty, I got the answer, and he said, so do i Mr. Hinkson? I said, well, then come up here and write it on the board. One of the things that I did not being a good writer, being blind. I just have never learned to have that great of handwriting. I would always have a student write on the board. And everyone competed for that job every day. So that day Marty got to do the job, Kenny came up and described it and said the answer. And I said, that's the same answer I got. And does everybody understand it? But it was so great to be able to interact with him. And it all started with being honest. And I think that's one of the best life lessons I ever learned, not only from being a student teacher, but just in general, that people know it when you're not being dishonest, they can sense it, whether they can articulate it, whether they know it consciously, they'll at least know it subconsciously. If you're not being honest and direct with them, and so it's important if you're going to truly earn trust, to have an honest relationship and and as I, as I put it, don't blow smoke at people.   Kay Hutchinson ** 23:12 That's so true. I mean authenticity as an energy is so very transformative, you know. And I love your story, Michael, because it reminds me too. When I was teaching, you know, I too, was honest with my kids. I just said, you guys feel scared of these problems that we have on our page. Your teacher was scared this morning and had her head in her lap crying like, how am I going to teach this to you? All you know, when they when we can be human with each other. When we are able to really just say what is real and in our hearts, it completely transforms the journey, because suddenly we recognize that we're all in the same space, and then we can lock arms to really move through it together. But if the energy is not even, there's not a fairness there, and part of the fairness is transparency, then it creates a completely different flow. It isn't necessarily transformative, and it can create obstacles and blocks versus being that wonderful thing where your student got to bloom, you got to bloom, and I'm sure the entire class benefited from the authenticity of both of you bouncing off of each other saying, this is the problem that I found, and this is Mike says, here's how I solved it. And together, you guys were able to really get that information across, I'm sure, in a way, that got everybody inspired to think about, how can they come about solving the problems too   Michael Hingson ** 24:35 well, something like 15 years later, we were at the Orange County Fair in July, and this guy with a deep voice comes up to me and he says, Hey, Mr. Hinkson, do you know recognize my voice? Well, there was no way. He says, I'm Marty, the guy from your algebra class 15 years later. And you know it was, it was really cool, yeah, and it was, it was so. To have that opportunity to, you know, to talk with him again. And, you know, we both, of course, had that, that same memory. But it's, it is so true in general, that honesty and connectionalism are so important, it's all about building trust. In my new book, live like a guide dog. We talk a lot about trust as one of the things that you can use to help learn to control fear, and specifically I talk about in the book lessons I've learned from all of my dogs, my guide dogs, and so on. And one of the lessons that we talk about is that dogs may very well, love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally, and you do still have to earn their trust. They may love you, but they won't necessarily trust you until they get to know you. And so with every guide dog, I have to start all over and develop a new relationship and learn their quirks. But the reality is they're learning mind quirks as well, and what we do is we figure out how to interact and work together, and when we are both open to trust, and that's the other part of it, I have to be as much open to trust as the dog, because the way a previous guide dog worked and the things that a previous guide dog did don't necessarily apply with a new dog, and so it's important to really be open to developing that trusting relationship, but it takes a while to develop, but when the relationship develops, it is second to none, and and I wish it were more true with people, but we're always worried about so many things, and we think about what's this person's hidden agenda? We tend not to be open to trust. And the reality is, we can be just as much open to trust as we ever would need to be. That doesn't mean that we're always going to trust, because the other person has to earn our trust too, but we can be open to it absolutely.   Kay Hutchinson ** 27:01 And you know, animals are such an amazing teacher to that process of developing trust. I love what you said that they love unconditionally, but that not necessarily trust unconditionally. To me that is such balance, because I often notice in my work, there's a tendency, especially with empathic women, to over trust, to trust too soon, to not require that others earn that trust. And so I think it's really an important piece to find that balance in being able and being open to trust, but not rushing the process to the point where we lose our boundaries in that and when you interact with animals, you really learn how to do that. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 27:47 why do you think so many women are too eager to trust and do trust too quickly?   Kay Hutchinson ** 27:55 I think in the population of women that I work with in my groups, that they refer to themselves often as women empaths or empathic women. I think some of that can come from the over care taking syndrome that some of them may be exhibiting as a way of working through old wounds, that idea that it's my job to kind of just be this wide open radar and take care of others and be open, and they don't understand that it is absolutely part of self care to regulate that openness, to have a filter and to be able to give that piece of time to really see who people are, because narcissists oftentimes are wearing a facade. May not necessarily see who they are in the early stages of an engagement. So by being open, but still having boundaries, which kind of when your boundaries are respected over time, I think that's where trust really blooms. And by taking that time, then we are able to really make sure that we're in relationship with people where there is a fair exchange of trust, because that's part of the fair energy exchange, as I often say, is trust has to go both ways, and in a narcissistic relationship, it's usually just one way. It's the person you know who's non narcissistic, trusting fully and the narcissist withholding trust. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 29:17 and you think that men are much more not open to the whole concept of trust, than than women? Not   Kay Hutchinson ** 29:29 at all. I think men are beautiful in their heart spaces, just as open too. So I see men in paths exactly in that same space as well, men that are natural givers who want to connect. They can often also get in that space of trusting too soon. So when my practicing encompassed working with both men and women, that would be something that I would often kind of give guidance to in the dating process of Give it time. And allow somebody to earn that beautiful jewel of trust that is your heart, and allow yourself to also be discovered by the other person as someone who's trustworthy. Give it the space, because I've had beautiful men that were clients that absolutely got their hearts trampled, and also got their energy siphoned by energy vampires, just because they jumped in, just so wholeheartedly, so soon, so having that balance being aware of the pacing of a relationship, and then again, going back to animals, because that was part of the thing that I did. Michael straight out of energy school, I worked with animals first and human second. And I think that dance that we do with animals is really can be a framework or a model for how to move with humans too, because animals don't rush it. You know, they're going to take their time and trusting you. They're going to check you out and notice what your Kirks are and notice how you respond to them. It's not something to give right away. And so when you do earn the trust of an animal, whether it's a cat or dog or in my case, I also worked with wild animals, it is really such a treasure, and it's cherished when it happens.   Michael Hingson ** 31:15 Yeah, but then even wild animals are open to trust there. There are a lot of other things that you have to work through, but still, the the the opportunity to develop a trusting relationship is certainly there. Now I think that cats are more cautious than dogs about a lot of things, but they're but they're open to trust. I know that that stitch my cat does trust me, but she is much more cautious and tends to react to noises and other things a lot more than Alamo the guide dog does. So they're there. There are issues, but there's a lot of love there, and there is a lot of trust, and that is as it should be. But again, I've had to earn that trust, which is the real important part about it. Yeah, that's definitely   Kay Hutchinson ** 32:07 and, you know, you speak about, like, the differences of dogs and cats too. There's a difference in the neurological sensitivity, of course, with dogs too, it depends on the breed. You know, like, for example, chihuahuas can be very neurologically sensitive, so they react to many things, versus, say, like Labradors or other larger breeds of dogs, shepherds and so forth, they tend to have a more steady neurological response to the world. So they make wonderful emotional support and other helper roles in our lives. But cats, they tend to, across the board, be pretty high strung neurologically, which means that's why they would be a little bit more skittish about why   Michael Hingson ** 32:47 they're cats. Yeah, absolutely, it works. Well, how long? How long did you teach?   Kay Hutchinson ** 32:55 Well, I taught in public school. I think it was three years. I'm still a teacher. I never I just left the forum from a public school into I became a writer for textbook publishers. So I created Teacher Guides. There was a lot of teaching in that. And then I also ran the only medical Qigong professional certification certification program that is a one on one apprenticeship program, and I ran that program up until the pandemic, from 2008 or nine until the pandemic, before I slowly shifted into just this really super niche of working with women on the journey of recovering from narcissistic abuse, and really putting my full energy into that, I still get calls for people who want to certify with me, and so I'm I'm still thinking about reopening the school, but it's been such a pleasure going down this road and journey of developing virtual journeys for women online and watching them bloom and seeing the transformation. So I always say that I'm ever the teacher. I never really left the profession. Everything that I do involves education and really helping people to optimize the way they learn as souls and as whole beings in the world   Michael Hingson ** 34:17 well, and I think in reality, and I wish more people understood it. But I think we're all teachers, and I know one of the things that I learned when I first was put in a position where I had to start selling professionally, I took a Dale Carnegie sales course, and one of the things that they talked about in that course was sales people. The best sales people are counselors, they guide, they teach, because you'll get a better understanding of your prospects and your customers, but that's what you really should be doing. And again, there's a whole level of honesty that goes with that. But the reality is, I think that all of us teach. I know a lot of. Blind People say I don't I'm blind. I am the way I am. I don't want to be a teacher. I don't want to have to educate people. Well, the reality is, we all do that in one way or another. We're all teaching someone, or bunches of someone's from time to time. And the reality is, teaching is so fun,   Kay Hutchinson ** 35:21 it is, and I love that you said that, because we're always teaching people how to engage ourselves just on that level alone, or engage with ourselves. Yes, absolutely. And when we know that and we bring joyousness to the process, right, it can be so transformative, because when we're enjoying that process, we're going to go into those uncomfortable areas, right that may be challenging or difficult, and often engaging with other people, you come up with new facets and perspectives that you otherwise would not have. So I, I love, I love the dance of learning and also in sharing too.   Michael Hingson ** 36:06 My wife was a teacher for 10 years, and always loved it when she she did do special ed and so on. She was in a wheelchair her whole life, so she was sort of bent that way, but she loved teaching third grade. She thought that third grade was the best, because when you start to get older than that, kids get more set in their ways, and when they're younger than that, they're they're just not there. Yet. She loved third grade, so I'm glad you started with third grade math.   Kay Hutchinson ** 36:35 Third grade was really sweet. I went from there to early childhood so, and then later I was tutoring at the university level, I had an opportunity to work as a tutor to actually doctoral foreign students who needed help with writing skills and things like that. So I really have enjoyed that full spectrum, just as I enjoy working with clients that come from vast differences in their backgrounds, and taking the journey into to learning more about holistic ways and moving so a lot of fun. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 37:09 it is, you know, and I think life in general is a lot of fun if we would just approach things the right way and not let everything upset us, we we have a much better life in our own world,   Kay Hutchinson ** 37:21 definitely, absolutely. Well, you,   Michael Hingson ** 37:25 you've talked a lot about this whole idea of narcissism and so on, and I know you've had involvement in your life with that. You want to talk about some of that and tell us how you really got into really doing a lot with it, and what motivates you and so on. Or how much of that do you want to talk about? Oh,   Kay Hutchinson ** 37:42 definitely. Well, you know, I would have to go all the way back to, you know, experiences with racism that I experienced as a narcissism. I'm not saying that every person who has racist thoughts or beliefs or or patterns are narcissists, but many narcissists are racist, and so I think the early exposure to what I would call someone that is an energy vampire bent on manipulating or creating a flow that isn't a fair exchange of energy happened to me at a very young age. So I gained a lot of insight into how do you move through that? So it made sense that when I was beginning my career as an energy healer, as a practitioner, and I started noticing the different physical and emotional issues people would come in the door with, they'd come in with, say, like autoimmune issues, thyroid issues, cancer and different things like that. But when we began to really look at the root of all of those conditions, we began to realize that there was a pattern of having been in some sort of prolonged engagement with another person, where there was not a fair energy exchange. And that's when I began to realize, oh, all of my clients have had experiences with narcissism and of having had their energy siphoned in a way that was not beneficial for the entire body, mind and soul, and so in creating these resets for clients for nearly, I think it was about 15 years I was into that career. I never realized, because I'd never encountered it directly in a personal relationship. What it was like to be in a relationship with a covert narcissist, and I fell in love with a person who was very, very clever as far as really hiding those aspects of his personality. And I've come to understand that the reason that I walked that journey was so that I could have first hand lived experience. I knew what overt narcissism was about, but I had never really experienced the covert variety that hidden, that more subtle type. And by being in this marriage and relationship with a person that was exactly that, it gave me a lot of insight. To the subtle ways that we lose energy to people, and what the impact is on that physical level. For me, it left my immunity completely tanked, and I was having reoccurring shingles all over my face. I was having high anxiety, which was not a part of my emotional walk. Previously, I was also very fatigued. I had resolved many years prior to that severe fibromyalgia, and suddenly that came out of remission, and I was in constant pain every day. So you know, in seeing how dramatically my own health changed, it also changed the way that I was showing up on a business level, how available I was on an energy level, to really serve clients. And it also showed up in terms of my spiritual path, where I slowly began to get disconnected from source and not rely on that as my critical way of moving through life, where previously I have so it was a just a journey of really, truly recognizing what it feels like across every level imaginable to get decimated by the person that You love because they are wounded and are narcissistic.   Michael Hingson ** 41:22 What finally happened that made you realize what was occurring and caused you to decide to deal with the whole issue.   Kay Hutchinson ** 41:31 Well, you know, it wasn't just one thing Michael, because if he was a subtle narcissist, my understandings of what was happening came about gradually. But the thing that really stood out in my mind, that made me say, You know what, I absolutely need to get out of this relationship was when I went to caretake an aunt that had stage five stomach cancer, and I had previously was in the role of caretaking his mom, when she had metastatic blood level cancer. It was a form of leukemia, and also his aunt, who had a form of bone cancer. So when his family members were ill, I was there. I dropped everything, not only just as a healer, but as a family member, as someone who loved these Dear ladies, was by their sides and really helped them to transition. But when it came time for me to be at the side of my relative, my husband was completely lacking in empathy, and I'd spend the entire day with her, just helping her to quell nausea, get more comfortable, feel more peaceful. I completely had not eaten the whole day because my whole attention was on her and also on my father. Her brother, wanted to make sure that my dad was okay in being with her, because he was also approaching soon the final days of his life. He had a lot of weakness going on and things. And I returned home, and I was just exhausted, and I said, Honey, let's go out for dinner, and let's go out and do something kind of fun, because that's what I am, and I give a lot on that heavy level, I like to shift over to something light. And I was met with, I don't want to go anywhere. Why do you always want to go out to dinner, and he just started kind of yelling at me, and I realized, oh, wow, just even on a pure nourishment level, I need food because I haven't eaten all day. This is somehow becoming a challenge. And I ended up going out to dinner by myself at a time when I was really super vulnerable about ready to lose my last living aunt in the States, and thinking, what am I doing in a relationship where merely asking to be fed, not even emotionally, is a challenge? And I said, Ah, he can't even literally feed me. And I knew there was no fixing that. Even though we had gone through counseling, it's like, no, no, this is just not going to continue. I have to leave, right? So that was a critical moment in my life of just and that's what I would say to everybody in the audience. Ask yourself, are you being felt fed well? Are you being well nourished by the person that you're in that relationship with? Because narcissists are not capable of nourishing   Michael Hingson ** 44:29 you. Yeah. So what happened? I mean, you made you, you realize what was occurring. What did you do? So   Kay Hutchinson ** 44:35 at that point, we had been in counseling, so I got on the phone with our counselor, and I said, I really need your safe space the next time we come in, because I need to have a conversation about divorcing, and I really need to make sure that I'm moving through this safely and with the proper support around me. And that's really, really important, because if your audience. Are in relationships with narcissists who have never been abusive, they need to understand that there's a high likelihood of them becoming physically abusive when they decide to leave. Mm, hmm. And so it's really important to make sure that that conversation is happening in a safe space and that there's enough support around to keep violence from escalating, even if you've never seen that person in that more physically abusive space, it needs to be considered.   Michael Hingson ** 45:33 So you, you talk to your counselor about that, and then you, you, I assume, had a session where you, you, you dealt with some of those issues, absolutely,   Kay Hutchinson ** 45:44 with the safety of of the counselor there, we were able to map out a strategy. But Silly me, Michael, I thought, well, you know, we have an agreement that we need to go our separate ways. We're two adults. We can do this peacefully. It's not complicated. We lived in the state of Texas. It's not hard to do. And so we said we'll just go to a mediator, and everything will be fine. They'll do up the paperwork, legally, we'll sign we'll go our different ways. Wish each other well, take what we each learn from this and move on with our lives. So it seemed a simple thing, but at the very last moment when we were scheduled to see the mediator, mediator attorney gets a call from a lawyer that I didn't know he even had saying, oh my, my client can't come into this mediation without me being present, because he's represented. And it was a bulldog attorney that was known for just rolling over the other person. And I went, ah, and so I got dragged to nearly a year and a half legal battle that really didn't need to be there, but I was very blessed in connecting with an attorney who specialized in helping people divorce from narcissist, and she was able to say to me, Kay, I know you have important healing to do for yourself, but also for the clients that you serve, let me take this over and you go, do you, and I'll just ting you whenever you need to sign something. And she just completely took it over for me so that I could move on with my life and decide, you know, what did I want to create in the new phase of my life? But not everybody has that ability to kind of really lock arms with attorneys that are highly skilled in dealing with narcissists, because the narcissist will weaponize the legal system if they're allowed to do that, and it can drive up costs. It can be exhausting on many different levels. So it's really important, if you can't afford to have an attorney that has that experience, there are many blogs and many places where you can connect to get that support, even if you're working with an attorney who is less experienced, right? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 47:55 but eventually you you were able to to deal with it, and I'm sure that it was incredibly traumatic. How long ago did all this occur?   Kay Hutchinson ** 48:06 Oh, this was occurring. 2018 2019 Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 48:10 so it's not been all that been six years. Yeah, six years,   Kay Hutchinson ** 48:15 absolutely. And you know, I often say that when you're going through an experience, after having been around someone that second guessed your reality, that we will tend to second guess our own reality too. And so one of the things I think that really helped me on a mindset level, was continuing to ask myself, well, what do I really feel? What do I really think? Exactly   Michael Hingson ** 48:40 right, exactly right. Yeah,   Kay Hutchinson ** 48:43 and reconnecting with that because I had been separated or disconnected from things that were really vital and important to me, because he had said that they were not important, or perhaps I was overreacting or being too sensitive that I began to discount those things within myself. So it's really this journey of really allowing myself to truly come back into valuing all of the things that were really important to me   Michael Hingson ** 49:10 to you. Yes, what you know narcissism is an interesting subject. What is maybe one thing that so not Well, let me go back. Narcissism certainly deals a lot with emotional issues, and there can be physical issues and so on. But what's maybe the one thing that you've seen in your work that most people wouldn't associate with a narcissistic person or narcissistic behavior,   Kay Hutchinson ** 49:41 I think the one thing that people don't really put enough of a spotlight on is that they are energy vampires. They create an energetic disruption across the five areas of ourselves that are absolutely critical for our physical health. For. For our emotional stability and our soul growth. So we're talking body, mind and soul disruption. You know, often times the talk is on the psychological or the emotional disruptions, or if there's a physical abuse component, it might be on that level. But it's really very rare that we are really associating that idea of energy, vampirism, of energy, of being a predator on an energetic level, with narcissists and so that is really core. Because until we start to heal the energetic damage that has occurred, we end up staying in a state of struggling for years with emotions that may be all over the place. I see felt it in myself. I see it in my clients, anxiety, depression, that feeling of being on an emotion, emotional roller coaster, and then all of the physical health issues that go along with it, whether someone experienced physical abuse or not, and then that soul disconnect. You know, energetically, we have to have, I often say, Energy Tanks. We need to have all five of our energy tanks full in order to have a relationship with source that is evolving that allows us to transform and elevate ourselves on that spiritual level. And so if we're damaged across our five Energy Tanks, we will find it difficult to really connect in with the power that is higher than ourselves. Tell me a little more   Michael Hingson ** 51:27 about this concept of the five Energy Tanks, if you would. Absolutely   Kay Hutchinson ** 51:31 that's my own wording, but really it's the language of Chinese energy medicine that's over 2000 years old, built on the idea of the five elements, whether you're an acupuncturist, an acupressurist, whether you are a martial artist, everything flows along the five elements, in terms of Chinese energy, medicine and the five elements are a system that helps to explain the relationship between our emotions, the different states of our emotions, our physical selves, and the way that we grow in souls. So I often say, you know that there's five tanks. John Gray made that comparison back I think it was in the 80s when he wrote about the different tanks that people need to have filled in their lives, like relationship tanks and the self care tank and all of these different things. It's kind of similar to that idea, but each one of these areas has a very critical role in our development. So like, say, the water element, this is essence, and then DNA level. So often times when we've been in traumatic situations, we may start to see some DNA level disruptions, and often that will appear as cellular abnormalities. Cancer would be a very good example of that, that when we're under immense stress, on a trauma level, the water element, which rules our DNA, on an element level becomes disrupted. So I see that a lot in my practice, where women have metastatic breast cancer and other forms of cancer as a result of the long term chronic stress of being in a narcissistic relationship, or their nervous systems, like my nervous system was completely damaged and I was hyper vigilant all the time. Had insomnia, had difficulty processing information. My natural dyslexia and learning disabilities that I came into the world with became exacerbated when I was in that narcissistic relationship. That's the wood energy tank that rules our nervous systems. So there's a take for each aspect of ourselves that gets impacted by the experience of being in a relationship where the energy exchange is not mutual and fair.   Michael Hingson ** 53:50 When you're talking about this whole concept of energy vampires and and the whole issue of having to face or deal with a narcissist. One of the things that seems to me happens is that your ability to have creative thinking and to be creative in your thinking goes down, and the result is that you, you you're again, you're you're sucked into something that you really shouldn't be sucked into, but you've lost some of the clearer thinking that you would normally have. How do you deal with that, and how do you get that back absolutely   Kay Hutchinson ** 54:34 but when we start to look again at the elements and how that shows up for creativity, our metal element has to do with our ability to feel safe and shielded. We can't be creative and stretch into areas that are unknown if we're not feeling safe. So beginning to do resets, where we begin to visualize the shielding around ourselves being restored, can be very helpful to begin to settle that. Sense of, oh, I'm not safe. And so there's specific breath work and energy resets that we do to really help to get that foundation of safety before we even begin to restore other aspects that affect creativity. The next thing that we have to do, Michael is really, once we're feeling safe, we need to be able to center ourselves, because if our thoughts are scattered all over the place, our energy is all over the place, it's hard to get centered, to bring the focus that is also a part of being creative. So the earth element is what allows us to begin to ground and calm ourselves, begin to focus and collect all of these different thoughts that we may be having and feeling so that we can harness them in a creative way to go forward. Similarly, we have to calm our nervous system so that our brains are able to create the rhythms on a brain wave frequency level that is conducive to creativity again, if our brain waves, if we were to look at an EEG right before hitting a moment of creativity, there might be a lot of bouncing activity going on, and it's only when that activity begins to settle and calm that we then are able to implement and bring forth something that is creative. So being able to regulate that becomes very important, as well as getting into the space of reconnecting with a fire element, which is joy. Because I often say creativity is just the expression of joy, right when we are in that joyous state, it's amazing how many different ways our brains can move to come up with something that is unusual, innovative out of the box. And so the restoration of the fire element, take passion, joy, all of that feeds in to the creative cycle. And then last on that water element, that essence level, right? Creativity comes from a deep well that we have as humans. When we're able to tap into that, we not only tap into a level of creativity that is not only unique to us as individuals, but we tap into the collective of the human creativity and consciousness, and so that allows us to ignite what we're doing in many creative ways. And this is why, as women heal these areas. Michael, they go out and do incredible things. They're able to go out and start new businesses. They start new careers at the age of 50 in their passion areas that they never thought that they would have done. They're able to take trips and go and pursue things that once they were fearful of, but now they are excited to open up themselves, up to trying new things in new ways. And so, you know, the restoration of creativity is very much a part of core of recovering from narcissistic abuse, because that's the one area that most people don't think about too going back to your earlier question, that truly gets impacted when we go through a narcissistic relationship, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 58:13 well, you have obviously been through a whole lot. What allowed you, or how were you able to keep I guess, what we would call an unstoppable mindset, through all of the things that that you went through, what, what drove you, if you will, to be able to succeed. I   Kay Hutchinson ** 58:33 think it's exactly what we've been talking about, having the practices that allowed me to refuel those five takes allow the highest level of energy to kind of flow through my brain, to keep that mindset in that positive area, to keep me motivated and passionate when you're working energetically, to restore yourself the mind comes along. It's not the thing you know. A lot of people say, Well, you got to change your mindset first, and I believe there's value in that. But guess what? When you change your energy first, there is no possibility of the mind flowing into negative spaces to hold you back, because your energy is creating this vibration that then fuels the thoughts that keeps you moving, and that's really the life that I've led. And when I find in moments that I may be falling into a place that is challenged on that mental thought level, I do my energetic practices, and boom, immediately, there's a shift from either a sad state to a state of feeling resilient, from a fearful state to being brave and courageous, to say, Hey, I just jump into this deep end of the pool because that's what I'm afraid of, and that's what I need to do, and trusting going back to trust that there's going to be tremendous growth and benefit. So. The more it's not that hard,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:01 no. But the other part of it is, the more of that that you do, the more you do the introspection, the more you analyze yourself, you think about what we're talking about here, the more that you actually go through the process, in a sense, the more you do, the easier it becomes, or the more efficient you are at doing it. And the result of that is that you become better at it, and so you're able to gain that control. It's it. The whole issue of resilience is is something to practice, but, but it is something that you have to work at I made a video recently where I talked about emergency preparedness, and I said most all of us don't prepare for emergencies, because what we don't do is we don't prepare our minds. Oh, we can create a plan so that there's a fire, we can grab a go bag or whatever. But how do we really prepare our minds? And that is something that we need to do a lot more of than we do today.   Kay Hutchinson ** 1:01:03 Absolutely. And the idea, Michael, that it doesn't take like long stretches of meditation, people have that myth in their minds to prepare yourself and be mindful when there are circumstances unfolding that maybe crisis by taking bite sized moments, I teach five minute resets to reset the brain and reset the mind, and you do enough of those over time, then when crisis hits, you have a whole well of cultivation to draw from and that that really ends up carrying you through whatever that crisis is. And I love that it's not enough just to prepare our minds cognitively for things, we must prepare ourselves from that deeper space energetically, so that when we're in the middle of things, we're not pulled so far off of our center that we forget that beautiful plan that we made,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:57 right, exactly right. And the reality is, it all does work together. Well, what's the one thing? Maybe that would surprise people if they knew it about you? Oh, gosh, how's that for a good question.   Kay Hutchinson ** 1:02:14 I think the one thing that that most people don't realize about me is that I am a martial artist, because most people think of me as just that healer that brings that comfort in and that level of soothing that I'm known for, and most people don't realize that there's a really strong warrior inside of K and I think we need to be able to embrace the warrior within ourselves and marry that to our peaceful, meditative selves. That the joining of both of them, I think, is really what makes me one of the strongest beings on this planet,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:55 and that is as good as it gets. So have you written any books? So   Kay Hutchinson ** 1:03:02 my book, the five elements healing, a practical guide for reclaiming your essential power, is currently being reworked. So you will not find it on Amazon at this time, but watch for it in a few months, because we're completely redoing that. And then also, I've contributed to redesign your nine to five advice and strategies from 50 of the world's most ambitious business owners and entrepreneurs. It was compiled by Bridget McGowan, and that one you can find on Amazon, and I was so blessed to create the chapter on how to create a soul based business, one that really allows you to develop what Michael and I are talking about, the unstoppable mindset as a critical way of moving through what you put out into the world. As a business owner,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:51 well, I definitely want to hear about the new book when it nor the reworked book when it comes out. So you have to let us know. Oh, absolutely. How do people reach out and get in touch with you, if they'd like to to learn from you, use your services and so on. How does that work?   Kay Hutchinson ** 1:04:07 Absolutely on your show notes, people can get in touch with me through the website that's listed in the link, and they can find out about the latest healing journeys, which I'm so excited Michael, because we have a live, free healing session coming up on February the ninth, at noon, Central Standard Time. I do these regularly to allow people that opportunity to begin to experience healing, the five Energy Tanks that narcissist destroying through a soothing distance healing to see if they are ready to take other journeys with me. So that's probably the best way, is to visit the website. And I know it's right here   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:48 on your show. It is in the notes, but go ahead and say the website, if you would absolutely   Kay Hutchinson ** 1:04:52 and the website is a, I K I healing.com Easy to remember, A, I K I healing.com   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:00 Um,

I have had the pleasure of conversing with many people on Unstoppable Mindset who clearly are unstoppable by any standard. However, few measure up to the standard set by our guest this time, Katrin J. Yuan. Katrin grew up in Switzerland where, at an early age, she developed a deep curiosity for technology and, in fact, life in general. Katrin has a Masters degree in Business Administration and studies in IT and finance.   As you will see by reading her biography, Katrin speaks six languages. She also has accomplished many feats in the business world including being the founder and CEO of the Swiss Future Institute.   Our conversation ranges far and wide with many insights from Katrin about how we all should live life and learn to be better than we are. For example, I asked her questions such as “what is the worst piece of advice you ever have received?”. Answer, “stay as you are, don't grow”. There are several more such questions we discuss. I think you will find our conversation satisfying and well worth your time.   As a final note, this episode is being released around the same time Katrin's latest book is being published. I am anxious to hear what you think about our conversation and Katrin's new book.       About the Guest:   Katrin J. Yuan Boardmember | CEO Swiss Future Institute | Chair AI Future Council Katrin J. Yuan is an award-winning executive with a background in technology and transformation. With a Master of Business Administration and studies in IT and finance, Katrin is fluent in six languages. She is a six-time Board Member, Chair of the AI Future Council, lectures at three universities, and serves as a Jury Member for ETH and Digital Shapers. With a background of leading eight divisions in the top management, Katrin is an influential executive, investor, speaker and a "Young Global Leader" at the St. Gallen Symposium. Her expertise extends to AI, future megatrends, enforcing AI and a diverse data-driven approach.  Ways to connect Katrin:   Swiss Future Institute https://www.linkedin.com/company/swiss-future-institute LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/katrin-j-yuan/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/katrinjyuan/ Youtube https://www.youtube.com/@katrinjyuan   Speaker Topics: AI Future Tech Trends | Boards | NextGen Languages: EN | DE | FR | Mandarin | Shanghainese | Turkish | Latinum Menu card overview https://www.futureinstitute.ch   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 00:15 Hi. I'm Michael Hinkson, Chief vision Officer for accessibe and the author of the number one New York Times best selling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast. As we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion, unacceptance and our resistance to change, we will discover the idea that no matter the situation or the people we encounter, our own fears and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The Unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessibe. THAT'S A, C, C, E, S, S, I, capital, B, E, visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities and to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025 glad you dropped by. We're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone. Welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. Our podcast has been doing really well. We've been having a lot of fun with it ever since August of 2021 and I really thank you all for listening and for being part of our family. And as I always tell people, if you know of anyone who you think ought to be a guest, let us know, and we'll get to that later on. Today, our guest is from Switzerland, Katrin J Yuan. And Katrin is a person who, among other things, is the CEO of the Swiss future Institute, and I'm going to leave it to her to tell us about that when we get to it. She is a executive. She's an executive with a with a pretty deep background, and again, I don't want to give anything away. I want her to be able to talk about all that, so we'll get to it. But Katrin, I want to thank you for being here and for finding us and for coming on unstoppable mindset.   Katrin J Yuan ** 02:20 Warm Welcome Michael and Dear audience, thank you so much for having me on unstoppable mindset. I'm excited to be here with you a bit about myself.   Michael Hingson ** 02:32 Yes, please, you and growing up and all all the scandalous things you that you don't want anyone to know. No, go ahead. We we're here to hear what you have to say.   Katrin J Yuan ** 02:43 My cultural background is, I'm looking Asian, grown up in Europe and Germany, and then later for my studies in Switzerland, in the French part of Switzerland. And now I'm being in here in Zurich. My background is Mba, it finance. I started with a corporate then in tech consulting. I was heading eight departments in my lab. Last corporate position there of head it head data. Now to keep it simple and short, I consider myself as an edutainer, community builder and a connector, connecting the dots between data, tech and people. I do it on a strategic level as a six time board member, and I do it on an operational level for the Swiss future Institute for four universities, being a lecturer and sharing knowledge fun and connecting with people in various ways.   Michael Hingson ** 03:44 Well, what? What got you started down the road of being very deeply involved with tech? I mean, I assume that that wasn't a decision that just happened overnight, that growing up, something must have led you to decide that you wanted to go that way.   Katrin J Yuan ** 03:58 It's a mixture curiosity, excitement, I want to know, and that started with me as a kid, how things work, what's the functionality? And I like to test do things differently and do it myself before reading how it should be done. What's the way it should be done.   Michael Hingson ** 04:21 So, yeah, yeah, I find reading is is a very helpful thing. Reading instruction manuals and all that is very helpful. But at the same time, there isn't necessarily all the information that a curious mind wants, so I appreciate what you're saying.   Katrin J Yuan ** 04:36 Yeah, totally. There are so many more things. Once you start, it's like one layer after the other. I like to take the layers, lip by layer, to go to a core, and I'm I don't avoid asking questions, because I really like to understand how things work.   Michael Hingson ** 04:55 Yeah, yeah. It's a lot more fun. And. And hopefully you get answers. I think a lot of times, people who are very technically involved in one thing or another, when you ask them questions, all too often, they assume, well, this person doesn't have the technical expertise that I do, so I don't want to give a very complicated answer, and that's all lovely, except that it doesn't answer the question that people like you, and frankly I have, which is, how do things work? Why do they work? Much less? Where do we take them from here? Right?   Katrin J Yuan ** 05:31 Absolutely, and breaking down complexity rather simplifying things, and tell us in an easy way you would maybe tell kids, your neighbors and non tech persons, and at the end of the day, it's the question, What's in for you? What is this for? And what's the value and how you can apply it in your everyday life? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 05:57 I grew up, of course, being blind, and encountered a lot of people who were and are curious about blind people. The problem is I usually have an assumption also, that if you're blind, you can't do the same things that sighted people can do, and that's usually the biggest barrier that I find we have to break through, that I have to break through, because, in reality, blindness isn't the issue, it's people's perceptions. And so that's why I mentioned the whole idea that people often underrate people who ask a lot of questions, and the result is that that it takes a while to get them comfortable enough to understand we really do want to know when we really do want you to give us good technical information that we can process and move forward with   Katrin J Yuan ** 06:47 exactly normally, in a room full of board members, managers, you call it, you name it, CEOs, investors, usually someone or even the majority, is very thankful that finally somebody asks also, dare to ask the simple questions to find a solution. And it's not only the what, but I find it interesting also the how you solve it, and to see and do things in a different way, from a different, diverse perspective. This is very valuable for those seeing and for those seeing in a different way or not seeing and solving it in your own very unique way, and   Michael Hingson ** 07:33 and that's part of the real issue, of course, is that looking at things from different points of view is always so valuable, isn't it? Absolutely,   Katrin J Yuan ** 07:42 this is why I also go for diversity in tech leadership boards. Yeah, because for me, I like to say it's no charity case, but business case,   Michael Hingson ** 07:57 yeah. Well, so you, you've, in a sense, always been interested in tech, and that I can appreciate, and that makes a lot of sense, because that's where a lot of growth and a lot of things are happening. What? So you went to school, you went to college, you got a master's degree, right?   Katrin J Yuan ** 08:17 Yes, correct.   Michael Hingson ** 08:20 And so what was then your first job that you ended up having in the tech world? I   Katrin J Yuan ** 08:27 was in the IT ICT for Vodafone in a country this last station was with Northern Cyprus. For me, very exciting. Yeah, to jump in different roles, also in different areas, seeing the world sponsored by a large company here in Europe. And that was very exciting for me to jump into white, into it and learn quickly. I wanted to have this knowledge accelerated and very pragmatic to see many countries, cultures, and also diverse people in many, many means, from language to culture to age to many, many different backgrounds.   Michael Hingson ** 09:09 So from a technology standpoint, how is Vodafone doing today? I know you've moved on from that, but you know, how is it? How is it doing today? Or is it I haven't I've heard of Vodafone, but I haven't kept up with it. That   Katrin J Yuan ** 09:22 was my very first chapter. So yes, indeed, I moved on, staying in the tech sector, but now I am completely here in Switzerland for another chapter,   Michael Hingson ** 09:35 and Vodafone is still a very sizable and ongoing company. It   Katrin J Yuan ** 09:39 is not in Switzerland, but yes, still in Europe, with headquarter, UK, in Germany and so on. Definitely. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 09:47 I'm, I'm familiar with it. And I was thinking Germany, although I hadn't thought about the UK, but that makes, makes some sense. So you, you obviously worked to. Learn a lot and absorb a lot of information. And I like the things that that you're talking about. I think people who are really curious, and who work at being curious aren't just curious about one thing and you talked about, you're curious about the technology and all the things that you could learn, but you are also very interested in the cultures, and I think that that is and the whole environment, and I think that is so important to be able to do what, what kinds of things, if you if you will, did you find interesting about the different cultures, or what kind of commonalities Did you find across different cultures? Because you, you had the experience to to be able to be involved with several so that must have been a pretty fascinating journey.   Katrin J Yuan ** 10:45 Yeah, CEO of a Swiss future Institute, and as university lecturer of four universities in Germany, as well as in Switzerland, mostly about AI data analytics. And also as board member, I have several demanding roles started already in young years. So one of the questions I hear often is, how did you make it, and how is the combination? And here my answer is, start early discipline focus. I'm highly self motivated curiosity, as mentioned earlier in the combination, and I did not expect success to come early. I expected to endure pain, hard work and to go forward and a mixture of discipline, hard work, step by step, and also to overcome challenges.   Michael Hingson ** 11:42 Did you find it to be a challenge with any of the cultures that you worked within, to to be able to be curious and to be able to move forward? Or were you pretty much welcomed across the board?   Katrin J Yuan ** 11:57 It's a mixture. It started with the obvious, the language. So when I was, for instance, on Northern Cyprus, that's the Turkish speaking part, not the Greek part, which is in the EU I accepted the opportunity given by the company at that time to learn Turkish. That was amazing for me. Yeah, as I felt like, if I'm the guest, the least I can do is adapt and giving, showing my respect and openness towards a new culture. And for me, culture starts with a language. With language you reach not only the people, but you really understand as there are so many, and those of you who speak more than one language, you might have find it especially comparing different expressions emotions. Typical expressions in different languages is not only translating, it's really understanding those people. Yeah, and that for me, definitely super exciting. It was a challenge, but a very welcome one, embracing that challenge, and for me, it was like, Hey, let's do an experiment. Being an adult, learning a complete new language, not like English, German, French, and both usually relatively close to each other, so related ones, but a completely new such as Turkish. So nobody spoke Turkish in my friend's neighborhood, closer family as we are, we are not. But I thought that, hey, let's simply start. And I started by learning eight, eight hours per week, so really intense, including the Saturday. So it was only doable that way, to give it a serious try to bridge and be open towards different cultures.   Michael Hingson ** 13:53 Well, the other part about it is, in a sense, it sounds like you adopted the premise or the idea that you didn't really have a choice because you lived there, or at least, that's a great way to motivate and so you you spent the time to learn the language. Did you become pretty fluent in Turkish? Then I   Katrin J Yuan ** 14:13 was there like five months, the first three months, it was rather a doing pain and hard work without having any success. So I didn't, didn't get it. I didn't understand anything, though I had every week the eight hours of Turkish, and it took three months, and that's super interesting for me to perceive like I love experiments, and I love experimenting, also with myself included, that is, it's not, it seems to be not linear, but rather jumping. So you have all the investments in the first where you don't see any immediate effect. Well, after the first three months, there was a jump. Um, and I remember clearly the first moment where I got it, where I understood something, and later on learning intensely, even understood some sort of jokes and etc. And there the meetings were all in Turkish. So it really helped to adapt to that one and get what they say,   Michael Hingson ** 15:20 so until you got to the point where you could sort of understand the language, how did, how did you function? Did you have somebody who interpreted or how did that work?   Katrin J Yuan ** 15:30 Well, they speak English as well, and of course, they adapted to me, such as to the other experts being there as well.   Michael Hingson ** 15:39 Yeah. Did? Did you find, though, that once you started having some effective communication in the language that that they liked that and that that made you more accepted? They   Katrin J Yuan ** 15:52 were surprised, because at that time, I was the only one from from the experts manager sent there and really accepted the whole education package for like, okay, it's free, it's education. Let's definitely accept it and give it a serious try, having the eight hours per week. So several were quite surprised that I did it and that I'm interested in learning a new language as a as an adult, where you could have said, No, that's, that's enough. Let's, let's all stay in our usual, the simple, the simplest way, which is, let's keep it and do it all in English, what we already can speak.   Michael Hingson ** 16:38 But they had to feel more at home when you started speaking their language a little bit. I remember in college, I took a year of Japanese. It just seemed fascinating, and I like to listen to short wave. I'm a ham radio operator, so I oftentimes would tune across stations, and I would find radio Japan and listen to broadcasts, and then I took a year, and I've been to Japan twice as a speaker, talking about the World Trade Center and so on. And although I didn't become in any way fluent with the language, I was able to pick up enough words, especially after having been there for a few days, that I could at least know was what's going on. So I appreciate exactly what you're saying. It makes it a whole lot more fun when people do relate to you. Which is, which is so cool. So, you know, I think that's that's a good thing. Where did you go after Cyprus?   Katrin J Yuan ** 17:34 I went back to Switzerland. Ah, familiar language, yeah, from the French and to the German speaking part in Switzerland, also with French, it's more or less the same. I learned a large part, also per University, and frankly, per TV. Watching television, if you first started, didn't get any of those jokes, yeah, I felt quite stupid. And then one day, you really break the wall, and then it's going all the way up, and you simply get it. You live it. You are widened, and you understand the culture and those people, and they will feel that you are bracing it, that you are not only polite or only there for a temporary of time, and then you're you're gone. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 18:22 you you demonstrate that you are really interested in them and curious about them, as I said, and that tends to definitely make you more relatable and make you more appreciated by the places where you are. So I'd like to go ahead and continue in, you know, obviously learning about you and so on. And I know we talked a little bit about other places where you've been and so on, but you've got, you've got a lot that you have done. So you work a lot with CEOs. You work a lot with investors and board members, and a lot of these people have a lot of different kinds of personalities. So what is your perception of people? What was your perception of working with all those people? And how do you deal with all of that going forward? Because everybody's got their own thoughts,   Katrin J Yuan ** 19:21 indeed, and in that context, what is normal? How do you perceive and how are you perceived by others? That was a question which raised my curiosity. Yeah, by time, it was not clear from the beginning, and for me, I found my answer in what is normal. It's super relative for only what you perceive and know. Got to know taught by your parents as a kid. And for me, looking looking Asian, yeah, looking different, yeah, as. A woman young, you're looking different. And that combination in Switzerland, it's yeah, it weighs some questions, and got me reflecting upon that question, yes, and this all how you deal and see and apply that difference and make that difference to be a value for yourself and for others. You bring   Michael Hingson ** 20:25 up an interesting point, though. You talk about what is normal, and so what is normal? How do you deal with that?   Katrin J Yuan ** 20:33 Normal is what you think is normal. There's no real normal, the so called norms. Does it fit to you, or you will make them fit to you, and you are unique in that setup you know, like what is normal considering beauty standards, it is what you use to know, based on culture, based on your direct environment, by based by your family, what you see is what you get, yeah. And based on some scientific stuff, like relatively high symmetric in in your face, but not too much asymmetric, yeah, just the right mixture, yeah. And so I learned to define, instead of being defined all the time, to define myself what is normal to me, to me, and to be very aware that the normal is quite relative my perception. Did   Michael Hingson ** 21:33 you find that there were times that you had to sort of change your view of what was normal because of circumstances, does that make sense?   Katrin J Yuan ** 21:43 Yeah, totally, and I respect it so much. Also, with your fantastic story yourself, Michael, where I can only say, Chapo, how, how you make your way all the way up. And it's, it's more than respectful. I have you have my admiration for that one for me, it was definitely food traveling, seeing myself, not so much as a small kid, I perceived like, Hey, we are all normal. Yeah, there was no difference as a small kid. But latest for me, when you got a bit older as a kid, between, in between kid and becoming adult, also from the environment, raising questions of how you appear, whether you appear differently from kids and so on. Yeah, the question was brought to me, so I had to deal with it in the one or other way. And I learned it's, it is interesting if you are finding yourself. It's not a point that you know in black, white, okay, that's me, but it's rather walking the whole path with all the stones, Hicks and up and downs, becoming you in all its essence and normal it was defines you, and I like to challenge myself wherever, and all these bias everyone has naturally, it makes us humans. That's the way that I, at least challenge myself to open that quick few seconds box again, after the very first impression, which is built unconsciously, and and, and some, some good moments and valuable relationships appeared not from the first moment, but because I challenge it, and even if we didn't like, for example, each other from the first moment, but then we gave it another opportunity, and even friendships were built with a second and third glance. And this is why I invite you to think about your own normal and to find and define yourself, not letting it be a standard defined by others.   Michael Hingson ** 24:07 I have ever since September 11, I always hear people saying and I read and I reacted to it internally. We got to get back to normal. People hate getting out of their comfort zone oftentimes, and that's, in a sense, so very frustrating. But I kept hearing people say, after September 11, we got to get back to normal. And I finally realized that the reason that I didn't like that statement was, normal will never be the same again. We can't get back to normal because normal is going to be different, and if we try to get back to where we were, then the same thing is going to happen again. So we do need to analyze, investigate, explore and recognize when it's need to move on and find, if you will, for the moment, at least a new normal.   Katrin J Yuan ** 24:58 Absolutely, I'm. With you. What's normal for you? Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 25:04 yeah, what's normal for me isn't normal for you. I think what's normal for me today isn't what it used to be. So for me today, normal is I do get to travel and speak, but when I'm home, I have a dog and a cat. Normal change for me a couple of years ago when my wife passed away. So it was a matter of shifting and recognizing that I needed to shift, that the mindset couldn't be the same as it was pre November 12 of 2022 and so it is important to be able to adapt and move on. So I guess for me, normal, in one sense, is be open to change.   Katrin J Yuan ** 25:50 That's beautifully said. Be open to change.   Michael Hingson ** 25:55 Yeah, I think it's really important that we shouldn't get so locked in to something that we miss potential opportunities, that that change, or that adapting to different environments will bring us   Katrin J Yuan ** 26:10 totally and you yourself, give yourself all the opportunities you have to evolve over time you will not be Exactly and that's good the way it is the same person, yeah? Because environment change, all the factors change, and we humans are highly adaptive, yeah, this is underestimated by ourselves many times. Yeah, but we are, and we make the best out of the situation, and especially with regard to hard moments where really, really, really hard, and nobody likes them, while being in that moment, but looking back and being overcoming it afterwards looking back, I like to say, when do you really grow? It's in the hard times when you grow this is where you endure pain, but you'll be become better, bigger, more resilient afterwards, right?   Michael Hingson ** 27:13 Very, very much. So Well, in your case, growing up, working, being in all the different environments that that you have. Have you ever had an unexpected moment, a hard moment that you had to deal with? And what was that? And how did you? How did you deal with it?   Katrin J Yuan ** 27:29 Sure, just sharing one earlier moment. I had an accident. I was on my way to dancing course and all chilly fun made myself pretty on the day, thinking only on superficial, beautiful moments, partying and so on. And then it crashed on the road, and in a matter of seconds, life can be over. So I woke up in the hospital and the intensive care, that unit, where you only find the hard cases, was, yeah, were really not beautiful to look at. Yeah, I find myself. And I was like, that was definitely a very hard lessons I learned in early years. So I had to relearn everything, and had to look two weeks long at a white wall with an ugly picture on it, and I had plenty plenty of time to think about myself and the world and what, what the heck I should do with the remaining time, and also my perception of normal, of wishes, of expectations, of different perspectives, and my my expectation on life. Yeah. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 what was an ugly picture? Did you ever come to appreciate the picture?   Katrin J Yuan ** 28:59 It was still ugly after two weeks, just checking.   Michael Hingson ** 29:05 So though you, you chose not to let that become part of your normal, which is fine. I hear you well, you, but you, you adapted. And you, you move forward from that, and obviously you you learned more about yourself, which is really so cool that you chose to use that as a learning experience. And all too often, people tend not to do that. Again, we don't do a lot of self analysis, and tend to try to move on from those things. But, but you did which is, which is admirable by any standard. Well, one of the things that I'm curious about is that you have a fairly good social media followings, and I'm sure there are a lot of people who would ask this, what would you advise for people. Who want to build their brand. What did you learn along the way, and what would you advise people to do if they want to build their own brand and and grow? I've   Katrin J Yuan ** 30:07 over 60,000 views, which is not bad for a non celebrity and a simple officer, worker, academic worker, here in Switzerland, and I like to invite people to think, imagine you were a product. What are you standing for? And don't try to cover your weaknesses. It's a unique you as a combination of all of your science, I like to speak about the 360 degree you and starting, and I know statistically that a bit more women are a bit concerned about, hey, how much should I really give and and get over visibility, and is it still in a professional way, and I don't want to waste My time and so on. Somebody told me, and I find this idea very simple and good people talk about you either way. Also, if you leave a room, either you let it the way, in a passive way, so accepting it, or you decide one day, and this is what I did, actively influence it. So I like to, rather if I may have a choice, actively influence and have some take on my life, my decisions, my normal the doings, the happenings and the starts with a perception in our world. Allow me it is very simple. What you see is what you get. Yeah, so the visibility, if you can use it, especially here, now with all the social media channels, from LinkedIn to Insta to YouTube, what you have in place, use it systematically for your business, not as a I don't want to waste my time, and you don't need to open up to everything your private life. If you want to keep that, that's all good. You can just open up enough to build up your brand for business. Yeah, and for me, it's really, really going, definitely, we monetize and open up for business, and so that our clients in Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Germany and Austria, and the dark region we call it, find us in, yeah, and thankful for that   Michael Hingson ** 32:37 interesting and I like something that that you say, which is, you don't need to open up your private lives, we get too nosy, and we get too many people who put too many pieces of information about their private lives, and unfortunately, that's just not a productive thing to do, Although so many people do it in this country now. We're, we're seeing a number of athletes whose homes are being broken into. And you can trace the reason that it's even possible back to a lot of social media. They're, they're saying they're not going to be there, or in some cases, they can't necessarily avoid it. Doesn't need to be social media when you've got sports figures who are playing in games and all that, but we focus too much on private lives rather than real substance. And unfortunately, too many people, also, who are celebrities, want to talk about their private lives. And I, you know, I don't tend to think that is overly productive, but everybody has their own choices to make, right? So   Katrin J Yuan ** 33:45 everybody has their own choices to make. Yeah, I recommend, if you like, stay with them consistently so you feel comfortable. How much you open the door is starting ultimately with you. I like to say in that context, you are ultimately responsible for all the things you do, but also with all the things you don't do. Yeah, and that's totally fine, as long as it's it's very much and that it's something you will feel that's, that's about you, yeah, and social media and visibility, and the business side, the professional side of using your whether Employer Branding, your personal branding, all the stuff, this is controlled by you, how much you give. Of course, you can sense how much, depending on how much you give, how much will come back. And if you don't feel like posting all the time, also with 40 degree fever out of a bat. Don't do it. It might be not sensible in your case, and not giving you back the outcome, the impact, the real consequence and effects it has. Yes, totally.   Michael Hingson ** 34:55 Well, social media hasn't been with us all that long, and I think we're still. So really learning how to best be involved with social media. And of course, that's an individual choice that everyone has to make. But what Facebook is only 20 years old, for example. And so we're going to be learning about this, and we're going to be learning about the impact of social media for a long time to come, I suspect,   Katrin J Yuan ** 35:20 absolutely and nowadays, fusion. Everything merged on the next level with AI, the perception what you get is what you see really fake news is only the beginning in text, in visual speaking of pictures and in videos, which is nothing else than a row of visual pictures in moving so our generation and the next and the next, from alpha to Gen Z, X, Y over and bridging generations, we will have to learn how to deal with it responsibly, both being potentially one of the actors in So, being a creator, creating your own content, and on the other side, accepting seeing, resonating, interacting with other content. What is real, what is fake? How do you deal with it, critically and responsibly for business, for society, yeah? Because whenever you do something, somebody else will see it. And that's that sense every one of us is a role model. So your behavior is not ultimately only what you say, but also what you do. Yeah, measure me and what I do, not what I say, and yeah, and others will see you and observe and that will have an effect, if you want or not. And therefore I am for a responsible way, behaving, reflecting and carry that on, spreading that information. Yeah. It all starts with you, I   Michael Hingson ** 37:01 believe is all too important to recognize it's due and judged by what I do, not by what I say. I think that is so important and one of the biggest lessons that we can learn from social media or anything. And it's nothing new. It's just that now it is such more a visible kind of lesson that we need to learn, because it's all about actions, and they do speak a lot louder than words, whether we like to think so or not. Yeah,   Katrin J Yuan ** 37:30 totally. And you said it, Michael, it's nothing new. Yeah, it's not reinvented, but, yeah, it's all transparent, too much information flooded by all channels, all these voices and people, experts are not commenting, resonating, multiplied, copied, bringing to other dimensions, and it's so easy, yeah, the real ones and the other ones. Yeah, so it's upon you to deal with it responsibly, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 38:00 well, you have been associated with a number of boards. You've dealt with lots of board members. You're the CEO of a company and so on. So I'm curious to get your thoughts on the whole concept of, how do we work to make boards and board members more inclusive and more diverse? Or how do we open boards up to perhaps different things that they haven't experienced before?   Katrin J Yuan ** 38:31 That's a very good one, which means a lot to me personally. I like to say it's not a charity case, but a fact matters, numbers, business case so simple. That is, if you have, let's say, 10 people, high personalities in one room, a decision is very, very easily made. If you all think, look, behave the same, with the same skills, background, experiences and cultural wise, definitely, you will come to one decision quickly. But is this ultimately the best decision of a company and for your future? And have you shared all these thoughts from a different perspective, from a different angle. This implies a certain way, also with efforts with some time are not only easy peasy, but once you challenge yourself, you really grow. You really grow and come to an ultimately better decision, worthwhile, a more valuable perspective, yeah, and thinking of something you have never fought yourself, but another fraction does, and ultimately, the other voice is not only one minority speaking of an easy example of one to nine makes 10. Yeah, but scientifically, we speak here about the 33% and more, so more than three four people in a room, it would make sense to really have a strong voice here, and not only the one exceptional voice, but really a discussion among diverse peers reaching to the ultimate outcome in the best interest of a company.   Michael Hingson ** 40:26 How do we get people to adopt that kind of mindset and expand boards though to make that happen? Because all too often, people are locked into their own way. Well, we want board members and we want people who think as we do, and we don't want to really change, which is getting back to what we talked about before, with normal   Katrin J Yuan ** 40:45 I'm definitely with you, Michael, and if we had one short sentence answer on that one, I would be the first to raise the hand give me that solution. It's very hard to force externally. It's it's, ultimately, the best way is if you really come to that and you you get convinced yourself by your own experience, by seeing observing, by being open minded enough to learn from others. Yeah, that is not with age, with success, with power, with hierarchy, you name it, with title, with salary, package that you find one day, okay, I learned enough. I'm successful enough, I'm rich enough, I can afford and do what I what I wish, means, and I I'm not interested, consciously or unconsciously, and having another, maybe challenging other view which threatens or challenges myself, or which makes it a little bit more uncomfortable, but for the ultimate sake of getting to a better result. So there's a science dimension, there's a psychological cultural dimension, and definitely that's an individual one, but I learned the greatest people, men and women, like the really successful ones, they are quite on the steep learning curve, wherever they stand. And the really good ones, they want to become even better. Now this is for knowledge, learning never ends, and this is also for openness, looking the ball is wound from the 360 degree perspective. And this is ultimately also, as I said at the beginning, the business case to know from science. Okay, if I go alone, I might get the point quite quickly. Or if everybody is a little copy of you, it makes it so easy, isn't it, but if you really challenge, go through this is where you bring yourself and the others and the whole team, and again, the value of your company and listed company, your innovation, your value of the ultimate company, much, much further than it was yesterday, and this is where maybe, how much can we afford, looking at business as competition, looking at the latest technology, all these and also over culture and over borders, yeah, how much can we afford to stay the way we Are because we were that successful and maybe also privileged the last 20 years. I doubt so. So this is, again, plenty of real facts, numbers, arguments. Look at the statistics. It's a clear business case where we go and the smartest one goes first and state an example by yourself. Go through it and then you experience it yourself, the value out of difference and diverse and true means by living it and allowing it in your own circle.   Michael Hingson ** 43:54 The question that sort of comes to mind, and it's hard one to really answer, I think, but if you're on a board with a very strong leader or very strong persons, and you see that they're not necessarily willing to deal with diversity or real inclusion. How do you help them understand the value of doing that and becoming more diverse or becoming more inclusive in the way they think, by   Katrin J Yuan ** 44:21 raising questions in a polite, respectful way, you can do a lot. Everything you do is better than doing nothing, simply accepting on and in a passive way. I think everything else is definitely worth to try, fail, try, do better and try in a row. Repetition is also something which is psychologically therefore we have all these repetition jingles and advertising to some, to some extent, very useful, effective. So if you again, may hear it, not maybe only from one person, but for more than the 33% and. And you might hear it from your best buddy, you might hear it from peers, but you one day come and accept at least question it yourself, yeah, raising that question and you really want to get better, as we said at the beginning. Michael beautifully said, accept change or change. What is normal, yeah. And we are highly adaptive, again, as humans. So allow yourself to grow. There are two ways, either or if, if you should ever meet somebody who is rather not that open to it. So there are two ways and which will show by time. Yeah. But one is, your people only like to change when change becomes necessary, versus where an event happens, yeah, a very hard event, and where you will have face tremendous consequences, so you must have a change, yeah, and it's painful, and the others before, out of being convinced, touching the question before, how much can we afford to stay the way we are like forever, just because it has been like this in the Last 20 years? And I rather invite change doesn't happen overnight. Yes, that's true, but continues and little ones rather the hard cut at the end and and rather from yourself, interior and and intrinsically motivated, rather than being forced only by outside. That's way better. And smart people, yeah, are open, listening, learning, and therefore, do some effort. Make some effort yourself. Normally, it pays back 10 times.   Michael Hingson ** 46:51 You know, one of the best quotes I've ever heard that I really like, and I think it really ties in here, comes from the person who was our 35th president, who's now passed away, Jimmy Carter. He once said we must adjust to changing times while holding to unwavering principles. And my point in bringing that up is that change doesn't need to be that you have to sacrifice Basic Life Principle. I think so all too often, we don't necessarily learn some of those life principles as well as we should, but change is a good thing, and we do need to adjust to change any times, and it doesn't mean that we have to sacrifice the basics of life that we've grown up with and that we Experience   Katrin J Yuan ** 47:37 beautifully said exactly, I totally agree and to every new year, the new year resolution, stop smoking, becoming more sportive, all of sudden, all these long lists of changes and wishes, potential achievement and potential failures. Scientifically, I'm a bit nerdy. From the person, yeah, for me, no, it is positive. Is it shows that, rather than going for the big, hard cut change, use all these small steps and allow yourself to make these small steps towards change and habits, this is also shown and proven. Habits do not come overnight. They are not accepted. Whether, yeah, it's getting early bird, becoming all of a sudden Early Bird, because, yeah, you want to belong to that 5am breakfast club or something, whatever it is, yeah, make a combination over time in small steps, and reward yourself also, if you make a small step towards change. Now that's that's where magic happens. So you keep it over 234, months, and there become a good habit over time. But   Michael Hingson ** 48:49 also keep in mind why you want to make the change. That is what you don't change just to change. You change because there's a reason, and it's important to understand whatever it is the reason for wanting to change   Katrin J Yuan ** 49:04 having a goal and visualize it as much as you can. It's a strong one. And ultimately, do it for yourself, not for your partner, not because of somebody else, expecting do it for yourself. Yeah, becoming healthier working with a certain amount of discipline towards your marathon, or whatever it is in your life situation, yeah, definitely. Because if you don't have a goal, don't expect to ever learn that would be a pure accident, and that's rather impossible, yeah. But having a goal, you dramatically enhance your probability to reaching that one step by step.   Michael Hingson ** 49:45 Yep, absolutely. So you know what? Let's take a minute and play a game, just for fun. If you were a song, which one would it be?   Katrin J Yuan ** 49:55 A classic one, up to a certain moment, I will be. Surprise and a mixture, rather to the more modern, maybe new, classic one and a Big Bang to the end,   Michael Hingson ** 50:11 you have a particular one in mind. As   Katrin J Yuan ** 50:13 I love playing piano myself. I have two pianos at home, and I like to play from notes, sheets. But also come, come make my own compositions. I have one in mind, which is rather my own composition, starting from the classic, from a known one, such as Chopin, but going into a rather the individual one the end, yeah, it's a mixture.   Michael Hingson ** 50:40 Well, you've you've obviously been around a lot and so on. What's the worst advice you ever received? Stay   Katrin J Yuan ** 50:47 the way you are and come back in five years. You're not ready yet. Well, I simply didn't accept it. I think you're ready when once you feel ready, and that's not you're too young for it, or you are not ready because these things are lacking. And get the first reference, and get the first ones who trust yourself, and start trusting yourself going the first part, whether it's the first leadership role, but it's the first investment role, whether it's a first board membership role, whether it's becoming you, following your dreams, making your own company become reality all these I am convinced, at the end of the day, you are the ultimate producer of your life. So what are you waiting for? For me, it was the accident. Wake wake up. Call for me, where I fought like, Okay, two weeks staring at that ugly wall with that picture that made me somehow aware of my time. So I somehow subjectively really accelerate. I always think like, Hey, I don't have enough time. Let's make and really use the time given. And so, yeah, it's all about you define yourself, rather than letting others to define I   Michael Hingson ** 52:06 think that's really the operative part. Define yourself. You're the only one who can really do that, and you're the only one who can know how well you're doing it. So I think you're absolutely right, and   Katrin J Yuan ** 52:18 nobody knows you better. Nobody should know you better than yourself, because you spend all your time you know all these ugly, weak and really strong, really beautiful sides of yourself. You spend all the time, your whole life, if you like it or not, with you. So some people, however passive or with regard to responsibility, yeah, I would like to, but somehow I'm waiting somebody else who pushes me, who will give me before me that ball in my way, who tell me or who give me this one recommendation I was waiting a long time for. No, it should be you. You know yourself the best way start making use out of it. Yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 52:59 you should really work to make sure you know yourself better than other people do. It's it makes your life a whole lot better. If you can do that. Let me ask this, if you could go back in time, what would you do?   Katrin J Yuan ** 53:09 I started quite early, and I've had some thoughts about skills, about what I could do, what I what I'm good at, and what I wish. Yeah, all that, and at some point I didn't dare to speak out. I accepted a lot, and I was actually quite silent for a long time. And in private life, I'm rather introvert. When they see me on stage as a speaker, as a lecturer at universities and so on, people tend to think I'm extrovert, but in private life, I'm quite introvert, looking back, maybe starting even earlier in a stronger pace than a faster pace, being more aware and not covering and myself in silence, in good moments, whether it's a meeting or in a lesson, if you know a Good answer, speak out. If you know a good question, speak out. Dare to speak out for yourself and for others. This took me some time to find my voice, many years, but now I somehow finally found it for myself, and I dare to speak out for myself and for others to make a little bit of change and to make dare to make things differently. So it has ultimately your individual impact, your outcome, your own responsible line. So this, this is something I would have wished for me and also for others. Believe in yourself, trust in yourself, speak out earlier, whenever you see and there are plenty opportunities. I'd like to finish on that one. It's like a muscle. It's not born, but rather, you can train it also, but leadership skills, or that entrepreneurial skills or to the skills to deal with difficult situation as you overcame dramatically, wonderfully. My. Yeah, everyone might face over a lifetime, individually with his and hers. Face it, grow with it, become better and share it with others. So you push, pull and get good people on your side. And it's not only you suffering, but the ultimate outcome is so much more than the one moment which was hard. So believe in yourself.   Michael Hingson ** 55:28 What's one thing that you really wish people would see that maybe they don't beauty   Katrin J Yuan ** 55:33 and difference? Yeah, think about it in all its means a bit deeper, and I dearly invite you. It starts with the looks, yeah, with the automatic, subconsciously quickly done, judging others. It's so easy. And yes, we know it's only human, but knowing about yourself, it's about freedom, and with freedom comes responsibility, and also knowing about your limitations and knowing about your weak spots helps you really a lot to grow over time. Knowing you is not only knowing you how to do the small talk when the sunny weather everybody can be a leader or do something in a good means, yeah. It's very, very easy, but I talk about what stormy weather when it comes to really tough situations, when it comes to darkness and different means, then observe yourself. How do you behave? And many, even adults, they don't know, they can't say, or they totally freak out or give up, or some, some, some ways, challenge yourself. Where are your limits? Have you never tried your limits before? Because you didn't swim out into the sea and see how much you can really swim well, better try out. You will find out and get to know yourself in all your dimension. This is definitely something, the beauty and difference accepting. And this is not only finger pointing to others. It starts with you. Yeah, because you are different. I bet you are in some ways, if it's not looking Yeah, being too old, too young, too man, too woman, too beautiful, too ugly, yeah, too fat, too skinny, and all these are, it's maybe your language, your culture, your skills, your different background, maybe you're never the new one, and maybe you are different in all beautiful ways. It is possible to be different. So allowing difference, seeing even inviting it to your circle, is something of tremendous value once you open the door and you nurture it over time, I wish more people could see it and use it on positive impact in this world.   Michael Hingson ** 58:04 I have been a firm believer pretty much my whole life, that life's an adventure, and we have to embrace it. We have to live it to the fullest, and when we do, we're much better for it. One of the things that it does for us is it makes us, by the definition of this podcast, more unstoppable. What makes you unstoppable?   Katrin J Yuan ** 58:26 Life is an adventure. I completely agree with that sentence. I like to say, for me, it's also one day I saw it's like one big game, either you don't play, or I play and want to win it, war, whereas I think there can be several who be the winners, not only one. It's not a one man, one woman show, yeah, it's the team, it's the community, it's the effort. What makes you unstoppable? It starts for me, definitely with your mind, unstoppable mind in every means, not with your body, because the body, the physics is limited, yeah, but our mind, spirit, brain, and what you feel here in your heart and what you hear have in your head is this, ultimately, you, changing, evolving Over time, becoming you, and this makes me unstoppable, knowing and I'm on the way. It's not a point, but rather a long, long path from our phone, knowing me, the skills, knowing what you have overcome, Michael, over time, everything. Why shouldn't you achieve and do and get, ultimately, to your next goal, because you, looking back, have achieved so much already becoming stronger and stronger. If we go back to the simplified game, if it was a video game, you get to the next level. Not only getting to the next level, you're becoming more stronger. Yeah, this is becoming you and. Yeah, I believe that you are the ultimate producer. It starts in knowing, trusting, believing in you, speaking out and helping, not only yourself, but ultimately pulling, pushing others. As a community, we share many things which, when shared, becomes multiplied much, much more worth, such as visibility, value, knowledge, trust and community and connections, all these wonderful things different than a cake, if you share, it becomes more so I don't see you are alone. I see you're not an island. You're not alone. Come with us. Follow and grow with us on the journey becoming, ultimately you and you will be unstoppable   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:49 your way. And I think that's a great way to end this conversation, because I think that you cited it and said it so well and eloquently that reality is, people can be more unstoppable, but they they need to take the responsibility to make that happen, and if they do, they'll be better for it. So Katrin, I want to thank you again for being here, and I want to thank everyone who listens to this for being with us today. This has been a fun podcast. It's been a great adventure, and I really appreciate having the opportunity to keep Catrin busy for my gosh, over an hour now, and just getting to be bedtime over in Switzerland. So thank you for being here, but for all of you, hope you've enjoyed this. I hope that you will give us a five star review wherever you are listening to this podcast or watching it, and also, if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest, we certainly like you to let us know. Love to get your thoughts about the podcast, feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, Katrin, if people want to reach out to you, how would they be able to do that?   Katrin J Yuan ** 1:02:20 LinkedIn, Insta, YouTube, you find me. Google me, what's   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:25 your what's your LinkedIn, ID, your handle on LinkedIn.   Katrin J Yuan ** 1:02:29 Katrin J Yuen, Swiss, future Institute. Opportunities don't happen. We create them. Stay, follow and grow with us. Thank you.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:02:41   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Our guest this time, Dario Valenza, is all that and more. Dario hales from Australia where he grew up and went to high school. He then attended two years of college but then left academia to work on working on designing yachts for, among events, the America's Cup races. Eventually he did return to college to finish his degree. He does tell us that he has a passion for design thinking and designing. As you will discover he has designed yachts, aircraft including innovative drones and even automobiles.   We talk about how his over-arching passion for design thinking also helps him design functioning and successful teams. Dario is a team leader by any standard.   He founded and owns a successful design and implementation company, Carbonix. Much of the work in which he is involved today is around having designed and now manufacturing long-range drones that can stay aloft and travel up to 800 Kilometers before needing refuelling. His products can and are being used for major surveying jobs and other projects that take advantage of the economic enhancements his products bring to the table.   Dario and I discuss leadership and how his design-oriented mindset has helped him be a strong and effective leader. I will leave it to him to describe how he works and how he helps bring out the best in people with whom he works.       About the Guest:   I have a passion for design and design thinking. This is the common thread that has led me to build yachts, planes, and cars - as well as create the teams and company structures to turn visions into reality.   I believe that beautiful design, as well as enabling and inspiring, is inherently valuable. Testing a new design it in the real world, particularly in competition, is a way to interrogate nature and understand the world.   I spent the first decade of my career working on racing yachts as a boatbuilder, designer, construction manager, and campaign manager. My treasured achievements include being part of several America's Cup teams and pioneering full hydrofoiling for World Championship winning boats.   I applied the lessons learned to other fields. This trajectory diversified into aerospace applications including drones.   I work to create products that bring joy by being desirable, aesthetically pleasing, and ergonomically correct, while always adding value through effective and efficient performance. I'm always keen to share my experiences and tackle new challenges with like-minded teams.   Ways to connect Dario:   Main point of contact is LI: https://au.linkedin.com/in/dario-valenza-a7380a23 Carbonix URL: www.carbonix.com.au Personal website: www.dariovalenza.com   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi everyone. This is your host, Michael hingson, and you are listening to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today our guest is Dario, if I'm pronouncing that right, Valenza, how do i pronounce it? Oh, good. Oh, good. I can sometimes speak the King's English really well. Dario is a person who has a great passion for design, and he's going to tell us about that. He has been involved in designing many things, from yachts to aircraft to other kinds of things, as well as teams in companies, which I think is very fascinating, that make products and bring things about. So we're going to get to all of that. Daro is in Australia, so it's early in the morning. There for you right now. But welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Yeah, my pleasure. Glad to be here. So what time is it over there right now? About 11am Yeah, and it's little after three here. So, yep, you're 20 hours ahead   Dario Valenza ** 02:27 of us. No, here, it's Saturday, I assume. There it's Friday. It is to the confusion.   Michael Hingson ** 02:33 So, so, as it's always fun to do, can you tell us about the future over the next 20 hours?   02:40 So, so far so good. Yeah, there you are. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:43 thank you for being here and for being a part of unstoppable mindset. Let's start, if you would, by maybe you telling us a little bit about kind of the early Dario, growing up and some of those kinds of things, so that people listening and watching can get to know you a little bit better.   Dario Valenza ** 03:01 Yeah, absolutely. I think the interest in how things worked was there as long as anyone can remember being exposed early on to different mechanical things and from household appliances to looking at trains and busses and cars outside. I think that all piqued my curiosity. But I remember the first time I came across the concept of a sailboat. Something clicked, or something about the way an aerofoil works, the way it can generate motion out of wind, the balance of forces, the structures, the things that all need to work for a sailboat to work. That sort of got me hooked, and then I spent every waking moment I could reading about it, doing research, making models that I'd sail across the pool, getting involved at the local sailing club, and just being hands on. And I think that's really where the passion started. So certainly, there's a general wanting to see how things work, and there's a specific aerodynamics, hydrodynamics, structures, just, I find it endlessly fascinating. And you're always learning, and   Michael Hingson ** 04:10 should always be learning. I think that's one, of course, the real keys is always learning, which some people think they don't do, but and some people try very much not to do, but that's not the way to really progress in the world. So I'm glad that you do that. You've always lived in Australia.   Dario Valenza ** 04:27 No, actually, born in Italy, moved here probably 10 years old, went to high school and uni here.   Michael Hingson ** 04:37 Yeah, you do seem to have a little bit more of an Australian accent than an Italian one?   Dario Valenza ** 04:41 Yeah, I think I was young enough when I moved that I learned the language pretty quickly. I did spend few years in New Zealand and a few years in Europe, so I think my accent is probably a little bit of a hybrid, but mostly Australian. I'd say, do you speak Italian? Yes. Funny, you get rusty at it, though, like when I go back, it probably takes me a few days to get used to speaking it, yeah, but it is in there   Michael Hingson ** 05:08 which, which makes some sense. Well, so you went to high school, and did you go on to college?   Dario Valenza ** 05:15 Did the first couple of years of an engineering degree, dropped out to go and do the America's Cup. Eventually went back and finished it. But really haven't spent more time working than started. Putting it that way, the things I was interested in, particularly the the advent of carbon fiber in in racing yachts, hadn't found its way into any curriculum yet. It was it was happening on the frontier in that environment. And so my judgment was you could learn more by doing it and by going to uni. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:49 yeah, on the one hand, with school, to a large degree, it's theory, and putting it into practice is something that always brings you closer to it, which which makes sense. Well, so you, when you went to your first America's Cup, what did you were you just an observer? Were you involved in designing a yacht, or what?   Dario Valenza ** 06:10 I was a boat builder. I was hands on, on the manufacturing, and that was the way in that was the the opportunity I had to actually be part of a team and prove myself over the course of the campaign, I obviously showed an interest in design, and I became more de facto part of the design team. But I really always like to sit at that interface between the designing and the building, so that there's a practical element to yes, there's a theory, yes, there's a design, there's a bunch of analysis you can do having that practical mindset of, is it easy to build? Is it practical? Is it possible to then tune it and modify it and improve it? And that actually led me to a lot of the logistical challenges of, how do you plan a build? How do you allocate time towards the things that make the biggest difference towards performance. So the journey was really from hands on boat builder to sort of logistics, to design   Michael Hingson ** 07:08 well, and design is clearly been your passion overall. So that makes some sense. When did you do your first America's cut?   Dario Valenza ** 07:17 So I was involved in the 2000 event in Auckland, which was the first time the Kiwis defended after winning in 95 right? Then I did 2003 also in Auckland, 2007 in Valencia. And then there was a bit of a hiatus after Valencia, because of the deed of gift match. And I was involved in a couple of teams as that transition happened. And eventually 2012 I peeled off to start my own business.   Michael Hingson ** 07:44 So let's see the New Zealand won in 2000 right?   Dario Valenza ** 07:48 They defended successfully in 2000 so they they won in 95 in San Diego against Dennis Connor, and it took them five years to basically set up a defense. So from 95 to 2000 and then they won, and they rolled straight into 2003 they lost in 2003   Michael Hingson ** 08:05 that was to Italy. Was it to the Swiss or to the Swiss? Right? Okay,   Dario Valenza ** 08:11 even though the core of the sailing team was the former New Zealand team, the basically flag of allegiance, but yeah, the lingua team. Now, Were you successful challenger, which is amazing. Were you   Michael Hingson ** 08:25 living in New Zealand in 2003   Dario Valenza ** 08:29 Yes, yeah. So when you become involved in a team, basically the whole operation camps out at a at a base in the lead up to the event. At the time, the yacht still had to be constructed in country. So in 2003 for example, I was with a Swedish team. I actually spent a little bit of time in Sweden during the construction of the yacht, and then traveled with a yacht to New Zealand, and stayed there for the duration. I asked,   Michael Hingson ** 08:58 because I went to New Zealand in May of 2003 the Royal New Zealand Foundation for the Blind, or of the blind, asked me to come and do some speaking. It was, of course, after September 11, and I was pretty visible, so I went down and actually helped them raise something like close to $300,000 by giving a bunch of speeches around New Zealand, but I remember listening to the radio and hearing all the irate people because New Zealand lost. The government didn't put enough money into it, and we shouldn't have lost it was pretty fascinating to to to hear all of that.   Dario Valenza ** 09:38 There was a campaign called the loyal campaign, just basically trying to reprimand the Kiwi sailors that affected at the end of the day. It's a professional sport. There were nationality rules, but it was really residency, so as long as they signed on with the Swiss team within a certain time. Period, it was like two years or something, and basically set up a residence in Switzerland, and they were eligible to compete. And I think there's been a history of that since the New Zealand government having Lisa supported in New Zealand, because it's certainly an investment in the national industry and tourism, everything that comes with it. And I think they did walk that back, particularly for the last event. And the latest result of that is the Kiwis defended in Spain last time around, which is again, unusual.   Michael Hingson ** 10:35 Well, it was, it was fascinating to watch the races, and we watched them was before I went to New Zealand. But that's why my wife and I watched, because we knew I was going there, and it was, it was all being defended in New Zealand. And of course, they were using sails, and the yachts were just going at normal sailboat type speeds. But I know then later, so much redesign took place, and the boats started traveling significantly faster, right?   Dario Valenza ** 11:08 Yeah, absolutely, there's been a change in that respect, just on the atmosphere in Auckland again, with my perspective, having, as I said, obsessed over sailing, worked my way up, got involved in campaigns, helped to put sponsors together with skippers, to get funding to build boats, and arriving in Auckland with the prospect of trialing with a team, you walk out of the airport and there's the actual boat that won the copy, 95 was sitting in The car park. There are posters. You can really see, like they called it the city of sales. And as I arrived the round the world race was stopping by in Auckland, so there was a sort of festive atmosphere around that. And you could really see people were getting behind it and getting involved. And it felt, you know, they had parades at the beginning of the event. So it was really special to be there at a time when there was maybe 12 teams. It was a big event. And to your point, they were symmetrical ballasted monohulls. So they were fairly conservative, you know, long, narrow, heavy boats. And the competition was really to eke out a one or 2% gain to have better maneuverability for match racing. And it was really down to that kind of refinement. And what happened after 2007 I mentioned a sort of hiatus, basically, two teams took each other to court, and they went back to what they call a deed of gift matches, which is the default terms that they have to abide by if they can't agree to a mutually agreeable protocol. And that deed of gift match ended up being in multi holes. So there was a catamaran and trimaran, and they were big and fast. And I think then, when the Americans won out of that, they they sort of got seduced by, let's make this about the fastest sailors and the faster boat in the fastest boats. So they went to multi holes. The next evolution was hydrofoiling Multi holes. And then once the boats are out of the water, the drag drops dramatically, and now they can go really fast. They ended up narrowly the Kiwis ended up narrowly losing in San Francisco. The Americans then defended Bermuda. The Kiwis eventually won in Bermuda. And then they in in sort of consultation with the challenge of record. That was Italians. They wanted to go back to monohulls, but they wanted them to be fast monohulls, and so they came up with this concept of a hydrofoiling monohull. So the boats now are certainly the fastest they've ever been, and the nature of the racing has changed, where it's more of a drag race than a sort of tactical match race. But it's still fascinating, because it's all about that last bit of technology, and it's all about resource management. You have so much time, you have so much budget, how do you get to the highest performance within that time that you can access, that the Sailors can get the best out of? So it's all a balance of many variables, and it's certainly tactical and strategic and very fascinating, but   Michael Hingson ** 14:18 hasn't a lot of the the tactics, in a sense, gone out of it, because it's now so much, as you put it, a drag race or a speed race, that a lot of the strategies of outmaneuvering your opponents isn't the same as it used to be.   Dario Valenza ** 14:37 Yeah. So if you imagine, the way you think about it is, it's a multi dimensional space. You've got all sorts of values that you can dial in, and the weighting of the values changes depending on the boat and the racing format and the weather so on a traditional monohull maneuvers are relatively cheap because the boat carries momentum. So when you tack you go. Through the eye of the wind, you lose drive for, you know, a second, three seconds, but your speed doesn't drop that much because a boat's heavy and it just powers along. And so if you have a three degree shift in the direction of the wind, it's worth tacking on that, because you'll then get the advantage of having a better angle. Similarly, if you're interacting with another boat, tacking to get out of their dirty air, or tacking to sit on top of them, is worthwhile, and so you get that the incentive is, I can spend some energy on a maneuver, because I'm going to get a gain when you have boats that are extremely fast, and we're talking three, four times faster than the wind, if the wind direction changes by three degrees, it's almost immaterial. And so it's not worth tacking on it. If you go through the dirty air of another boat, you get through it really quickly. And on the other hand, when you maneuver, you're effectively, you go from flying on the hydro force to gliding. You only have, like, a few boat lengths that you can do that for before the hull touches the water, and then you virtually stop. And so basically, the aim is you minimize maneuvers. You roll with the wind shifts. You roll with your opponent. And hence they've had to put boundaries around the course to force the boats back together, because otherwise I'd go out to a corner, do one tack and then go to the top mark. And so it's a different racing. It's still there are tactics involved, but the trade offs are different, that the cost versus reward of different tactical choices is very different.   Michael Hingson ** 16:31 But the race obviously goes with the newer designs, goes a lot faster, and it isn't hours and many hours of racing as it used to be, is that right?   Dario Valenza ** 16:42 It's also shorter course, so the format is kind of optimized for television, really, for, yeah, broadcast. So you have many short races, and it's it does mean that if you have a big disparity, like if one boat makes a mistake and falls a long way behind, it's over pretty quickly, because it did happen in the past where you get a boat that was outmatched or did something wrong and just spend three hours following the leader with no chance of catching up. So there's certainly a merit to having short, sharp races, but I think it's probably more physical and less cerebral, like, if you look at, yeah, the way the old boats worked, you had 17 people on there providing all the mechanical power, maneuvering, putting spinnakers up and down, dip ball driving, moving their weight around the boat. He had a tactician. They would have conversations about what's happening and react, you know, in a matter of seconds, not in a matter of milliseconds. Now you have eight people on the boat, four of them are just pedaling bikes, basically to put pressure into an accumulator to run the hydraulics. You have a helmsman on each side, and you have a trimmer on each side, and they don't cross the boat, because the boats are so fast that it's actually dangerous to get out of the cockpit. So it's very much more, I guess, closer to sort of Formula One in terms of it, you've got you've got speeds, you've got the reaction times are shorter. Everything happens more quickly, and there's certainly less interaction between the boats. Do you have   Michael Hingson ** 18:19 a preference of whether you like more the old way or the newer way of doing the races and the way the boats are designed.   Dario Valenza ** 18:28 If pressed, I would say I'd prefer the old way. But that's probably the bias, because I was involved more back then. Yeah. I think it's equally fascinating. And that sort of brings me to Yeah. So even you know, we'll get into how it applies to business and things like that, and it's the same problem, just with different variables. So my view with the cup was, whatever the rules are, you've got to try and win within them. And so they will change, the boat will change, the venue will change, the weather will change, budget limitations, all these things play into this multi variant problem, and your job is to balance all those variables to get the best   Michael Hingson ** 19:10 outcome right in the rules. Exactly.   Dario Valenza ** 19:12 Yeah. I mean, the teams do have a say. So I was, for example, in the committee that designed the rule for the catamarans that went to San Francisco, having said that what we thought we were encouraging by the rules, and what actually happened was nothing to do with each other, because once you set the rules, then the fascinating thing is how people interpret them, and they'll interpret them in ways that you can't possibly imagine, hence unintended consequences. But yeah, you have a say, but ultimately they are what they are, and the point of competing is to do well within those rules. Having said that, if they get to the point where you're just not interested anymore, then don't compete. But it is what it is. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 19:54 So how long did you do yacht design and so on, dealing. With the cup,   Dario Valenza ** 20:02 probably 15 years altogether, was 12 or so in the actual America's Cup, and a few years before that, working up to it, doing various different projects, and that's sort of in a professional capacity, getting paid before that as a passion. It's pretty much my whole settling my teens, maybe a few years before that as well.   Michael Hingson ** 20:21 So what did you do after that?   20:25 I started my own business.   Michael Hingson ** 20:26 There you go. Well, tell us about the business and what you what you started with.   Dario Valenza ** 20:36 Yeah. So it the the aim was what we call long range aerial data capture. So fancy way of saying drones with a long range that can carry out surveys effectively. So whether it's taking photographs, video, LIDAR scans or combinations thereof, the sort of underlying motivation was the importance of data. So having come out of the America's Cup and seeing the way you develop is you interrogate what's happening with the boat and the boat and the crew and the conditions, and the more channels of information you have, the more informed decisions you can make about improving now, applying that to real world problems, to things like linear infrastructure, to mining to land management. It seemed like to me there's a gap where if you could have better aerial data, you could make better decisions. And I happened to have a tool in the design and manufacturing processes that came out of the America's Cup that would allow me to create a lightweight airframe that would have that efficiency and be able to give that range. And this was at a time when, you know, people were already starting to think of drones as a solution, though there was a lot of hype around them, but it was really all around the electronics, around multi rotors, around things that you could effectively buy and put up in the air and do a short mission wave and then land. The idea of a long range drone, other than in the military, was pretty much unexplored, and I think largely because to make it work commercially financially, you needed the range you need to be able to cover in the order of hundreds of kilometers in one flight, so that you're not having a ground crew, effectively driving the line relocating from point to point as the surveys carried out. So initially it was fairly conservative in the sense that the main focus was to set up that manufacturing capability. So basically, copy or transfer those process out of the America's Cup into a commercial setting. So making molds, curing carbon, the way you document or the way you go about it, that design process, and I was open to doing custom work to subsidize it, basically. So doing stuff again, for for sailboats, for racing, cars, for architecture, just with that composite manufacturing capability as a way to prove it and refine it. And whatever money was coming out of that was going into developing a drone airframe. And then I was fortunate enough to have a collaboration with a former colleague of mine in the cup who set up a business in Spain doing computational fluid dynamics, and he alerted me to a contract over there for a military surveillance research drone. We, by then, had an airframe that more or less we could demonstrate, and we could show that it was lighter and was more efficient, and then fly further and it had a more stable flying path and all of that. So we won that contract, we supplied that, and then out of that came the commercial offering, and it basically grew from there.   Michael Hingson ** 23:50 But when did you start dealing with the drone design, the airframe and so on,   23:57 probably to 2015   Michael Hingson ** 24:00 Okay, yeah, I think I had started hearing about drones by then, and in fact, I know I had by that time, but yeah, they they were still fairly new. So how far would your drone travel?   Dario Valenza ** 24:16 So we have two versions, the old electric one will do a couple of 100 kilometers, the petro hybrid one will do up to 800 and so we're really squarely in the territory of crude helicopter, smaller, small fixed wing planes like Cessnas, and we're really going into that same way of operating. So we're not so much selling the drone to a utility to do their scans. We are providing the data that comes out of the scan, and we're using the drone as our tool to get that data. And by effectively mirroring the model of the traditional sort of legacy aviation, we can offer, obviously, a lower cost, but also better data. Because we fly lower and slower, so we can get a higher resolution and more accuracy, and there's a obviously carbon footprint reduction, because we're burning about 2% of the fuel, and it's quieter and it's safer and all of that stuff. So it's really doing that close in aerial survey work over large distances the way it's currently being done, but with a better tool,   Michael Hingson ** 25:21 the electric drone, you said, only goes a couple 100 kilometers, is that basically because of battery issues,   Dario Valenza ** 25:27 absolutely, especially power density. So not so much energy density, but power density really how much energy you can store in the battery in terms of mass, and obviously the fact that you're not burning it off, so you're carrying the empty battery around with you. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 25:45 Any interest in, or has there been any exploration of making solar powered drones?   Dario Valenza ** 25:52 We've certainly looked into it, and we've developed relationships with suppliers that are developing specialized, conformal, curvy solar panels that form part of the structure of the wing. There are a couple of considerations. Most prominent is the trade off that you're making. Like if you take add solar panels to a wing, even if they're integrated in the structure, and you minimize the structural weight, they will have a mass. So call it an extra kilo. Yeah. Right now, if I were to take that extra kilo and put it in battery or in fuel, I would be better off, so I'd have more energy by doing that than by having the solar panel   Michael Hingson ** 26:36 dealing on efficiency yet, yeah,   Dario Valenza ** 26:37 yeah. So obviously, on a hot day, when you're flying with the sun directly above, you probably would be better. But over the course of the day, different locations, banking, etc, it's just not there yet. Net, net, particularly considering that there'll be a degradation and there'll be a maintenance that's required as the panels deteriorate and the various connections breakdown, etc. So it's not something you'd rule out. Then the secondary consideration is, when you look at our aircraft, it's fairly skinny, long, skinny wings. When you look at the area from above, there's not a lot of projected area, particularly the wings being thin and very high aspect ratio, you wouldn't really be able to fit that much area right when it comes to and then you've got to remember also that if you're generating while you're flying, your electronics have to be very different, because you have to have some way to manage that power, balance it off against the battery itself. The battery is multi cells, 12 S system, so you then have to balance that charging. So there's some complexity involved. There's a weight penalty, potentially a drag penalty. There is a Net Advantage in a very narrow range of conditions. And overall, we're just not there yet in terms of the advantage. And even if it could extend the range by a few minutes, because we have an aircraft that can fly for eight hours, doesn't really matter, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 28:04 So dealing with an electric drone again, have you ever looked into things like fuel cells as opposed to batteries? Or does it not make we have,   Dario Valenza ** 28:14 and there's a company in France that we've been collaborating with, it's developing a hydrogen fuel cell, yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 28:21 So I was wondering, yeah. And   Dario Valenza ** 28:23 again, this is about, sort of, maybe sounds a bit conservative, but you know, during these lessons from the Americas capitals, talking about being seduced by the latest shiny thing can come at the detriment of achieving what you need to achieve today. So we're very conscious in the business in carbonics, of having this roadmap where there's a lot of nice to haves, there's a lot of capability that we want going forward, and that's everything from the remote one to many operations, detect and avoid fail safes, additional comms, all stuff that will enable us to do what we're doing today, plus x, y, z, but we need to be able to do what we can do what we have to do today. And most of the missions that we're doing, they're over a power line in the middle of nowhere. They're in relatively non congested airspace. The coordination is relatively simple. We have the ability to go beyond visual line of sight. We have the range, so it's really let's use what we have today and put all the other stuff in time and space. As the business grows, the mission grows, the customers get more comfortable, and that's a way to then maintain the advantage. But it's very easy to get sucked into doing cool R and D at the expense of delivering today.   Michael Hingson ** 29:42 Yeah, it's R and D is great, but you still gotta pay the bills. Yeah, so you have worked across several industries. What's kind of the common thread for you, working across and designing in several industries? Yeah. So   Dario Valenza ** 30:00 I think it's a high level problem solving is having an outcome that's very clearly defined and a rule set and a set of constraints. And the challenge is, how do you balance all those elements to deliver the best value? So whether it's, how do you design a boat within a rule to go as fast as possible? How do you develop a drone to fly as long as possible, given a certain time and budget availability? You're always looking at variables that will each have their own pros and cons, and how do you combine them so things like, you know, team size versus burn rate versus how aggressively you go to market, how do you select your missions? How do you decide whether to say yes or no to a customer based on the overall strategy? I see that as you have all these variables that you can tweak, you're trying to get an outcome. How do you balance and weigh them all to get that outcome?   Michael Hingson ** 30:58 Yeah, well, you've I'm sorry, go ahead.   Dario Valenza ** 31:01 I was gonna say, I mean, I have also, like, an interesting motorsport and when you look at a formula, one strategy, same thing, right? Did you carry a fuel load? Do you change tires? Do you optimize your arrow for this? It's a similar type of problem you're saying, I this is my aim. I've got all these variables. How do I set them all in a way that it gives me the best outcome? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 31:23 and in your design and and as you construct and look at what you're doing, you decide exactly what the parameters are, and you know when you're going to change the tires, or, you know when it's time to put in more fuel or whatever. And then, see, you've got to really know the product very well,   Dario Valenza ** 31:42 absolutely. And again, in the case of salvo racing, it's almost exemplary, because the rules are spelled out, and you have, it's a very artificial set of constraints, and you have a race day, you'll have your budget, and obviously you can work to increase that, but the time is what it is. And then in the rules, you actually get to trade off length versus width, versus mass versus sail area. Do I make my boat more powerful so it goes faster in strong winds, or do I make it skinnier so it goes better in light winds? You look at the history of the weather in the venue, and the teams that win are the ones that get all those mostly, right? So it's not necessarily the latest, fastest, more, most extreme solution, it's the one that best balances all these variables. Yeah, you transfer that into business, and it's a similar thing. You've got, you've got funding, you've got burn rate, you've got people, you've got customers, probably more variables, and it's a little bit more fuzzy in some cases. So you need to work harder to nail these things down. And it's a longer term. It's an open ended prospect. It's not I've just got to race on Sunday, then I can have a break for six months. It's you do it today and tomorrow and tomorrow. So it's going to be sustainable. But I the way you think about it in the abstract, it's the same,   Michael Hingson ** 33:00 and you also have to keep evolving as technology grows, as as the industry grows, as demands change, or maybe better than saying as demands change, as you foresee demands changing, you have to be able to keep up with it. And there's a lot to all that. There's a lot of challenge that that someone like you has to really keep up with. It's   Dario Valenza ** 33:23 a balance between leading and listening. So there's a classic Henry Ford line that if I'd asked the customer what he wanted, he would have told me a faster horse. We've fallen into the trap sometimes of talking to a customer, and they're very set about, you know, we want to use this camera to take these this resolution, at this distance, because that's what we use on a helicopter, because that's what used on a multi rotor. And you have to unpack that and say, Hang on, what data do you actually like? Because we have a different payload. We fly in a different way. So let us tell you how we can give you that solution if you tell us what we want, and I think that applies across various sort of aspects of the business. But to your point about the continuous evolution, one of the most fascinating things out of this experience of almost 10 years of sort of pioneering the drone industry is just how much the ecosystem has evolved. So when we started out, the naive assumption was we're good at making airframes. We can make really good, lightweight, efficient aircraft. We don't necessarily want to be an electronics manufacturer. It's a whole other challenge. Let's buy what we can off the shelf, put it in the aircraft for the command and control and go fly. And we very quickly realized that for the standard that we wanted in terms of being able to satisfy a regulator, that the reliability is at a certain point, having fail safes, having programmability. There was nothing out there when we had to go and design. Avionics, because you could either buy hobby stuff that was inconsistent and of dubious quality, or you had to spend millions of dollars on something out of the military, and then it didn't work commercially. And so we went and looked at cars, and we said, okay, can seems like control area network seems like a good protocol. Let's adopt that. Although some of the peripherals that we buy, like the servos, they don't speak, can so then we have to make a peripheral node that can translate from can to Rs, 232, or whatever. And we went through that process. But over the years, these suppliers that came out of hobby, came out of consumer electronics, came out of the military, very quickly saw the opportunity, and we were one of the companies driving it that hang on. I can make an autopilot module that is ISO certified and has a certain quality assurance that comes with it, and I can make it in a form factor under the price where a commercial drone company can use it. And so it really accelerated the last maybe three, four years. There's a lot of stuff available that's been developed for commercial drones that now gives us a lot more options in terms of what we buy rather than what we make.   Michael Hingson ** 36:13 Well, now I have to ask, since you brought it up, does anybody use Rs 232, anymore? I had to ask. I mean, you know,   Dario Valenza ** 36:21 less and less, yeah, at one point, like we use it for GPS parks, because we didn't have anything that ran on can right slowly we're replacing. So the latest version of the aircraft now is all cap, but it took a while to get there. That's   Michael Hingson ** 36:37 gonna say that's a very long Rs 232, cable you have if you're going to communicate with the aircraft, that'd be I still have here some Rs 232 cables that I remember using them back in the 1980s and into the 1990s but yeah, Rs 232   Dario Valenza ** 36:57 horrendous ones was, there was a, I think it was a light LIDAR altimeter. Someone will correct me, it ran on I squared C, oh, which is the most inappropriate possible thing. And it is what it is. So all we, all we could do is shorten the wire length as much as possible and live with it until we found something better, and   Michael Hingson ** 37:18 then we also had parallel cables. Yes, of course, one connected printers,   Dario Valenza ** 37:26 and we have ethernet on the aircraft for the comms. Well, yeah, there's a lot of translating that we need to do. And again, I'm not an electronic engineer, but I understand enough of it to know what's good and what's not. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 37:38 yeah. The days have gone by with all of the RS, 232, and parallel ports and all that. Now it's all USB and Ethernet and cams and other things like that which making kind of fun. Well, what other industries have you been involved in besides the drone and the boat or yacht world?   Dario Valenza ** 37:56 So I've done a little bit in cinemable Things which was kind of pituitous. The last of the Star Wars prequels was filmed in Sydney, and I happened to be here for a few months between America's Cup campaigns. And there's a few boat builders that were asked to go and do fiberglass work on the set, and they recommended me to do some of the structural design work for some of the sets. I don't think I was credited, but it was fun. Again, not something I planned to do long term. It just happened to come up, and I did it for about three months. As I said, a little bit in motor sport, more as a hobby, but as an interest. But we've made in the early days of carbonics, we made spoilers and wings and bits and pieces for cars when we were getting going, but mainly the sailing of the drones, really, because I've been in the drones now for 10 years. So right?   Michael Hingson ** 38:51 What? Why did you switch? Or maybe, why is it the wrong answer? But what made you switch from doing yachts to drones, and how did the drone story come about?   Dario Valenza ** 39:05 Yeah, so I mentioned the angle of the importance of data, looking for a real world problem where data was going to make a difference, and having the right so that not a solution in search of a problem, but the right solution for this problem, saying, if we can design an airframe that can do this, there's an obvious advantage and an obvious saving that that would make a difference to the world that has a big market. Now that's the theory, then to take the plunge. It was a bit of a combination of things. It was being beholden to the unpredictable movements of the cup, where your career depends on who wins and where it goes, and as a young single man, that's fantastic once you're trying to get married and have a family, becomes a little bit more of a problem. So again, starting your own business doesn't exactly give you stability. Cheap but more stable, I guess. And really that combination of an opportunity, being able to say I can actually see if I can make this work, and see what happens, wanting to be located in one place, I guess, looking for variety as well, and knowing that, you know, I still could have contact with the Americas Cup World, because I said I was doing custom work, and we had people from the cup working in carbonics. But it's really that point where you say, Do I want to keep following the circus around the world, or do you want to try and do my own thing and see how that goes? And I can always go back. And the aim is, you know, once you're committed, then you sort of tend to try and make it work no matter what, and it becomes the new aim, and that's what you put your energy into.   Michael Hingson ** 40:52 I had a guest on unstoppable mindset named Dre Baldwin, and Dre was a professional basketball player for nine years. He went to high school, was on the bench the whole time, went to college, played in college pretty well, but wasn't really noticed until he went to a camp where people could try out and be scouted by professionals who wouldn't come and see you because you weren't famous enough to be seen just by them coming to look for you. But he got a video, and he got some good suggestions, and anyway, he eventually made that into a nine year career. And I asked him, when we talked, why did you end the career? Why did you leave and start a business? And the business he started was up your game LLC, and it's all about helping people up their game in business and so on. And of course, he does it all in the sports environment. But I asked him why he left, and one of the things that he said was it, what people don't know is it's not just the games themselves and the basketball that you play. It's all the other stuff. It's all the fact that if you're going to really do it and be reasonably well, you need to go to the gym a lot, not just when they tell you to practice, but you got to take the initiative and do it on your own. You have to do other things. And he said, I just got to the point where I didn't want to do that, all that invisible part of it anymore. And so he left and started his own business, and has been very successful, but it was an interesting answer. And in a sense, I hear, you know what you're saying. It's really where you're going to go, and what is, what's really going to interest you, which is what has to be part of whatever you do?   Dario Valenza ** 42:34 Yeah, that all makes sense. I think, in my experience, I've never not had an obsession, so to speak. So yeah, with the sailing absolutely like, if you want to be in the America's Cup, it can't be a day job. You have to be committed. You have to be able to concentrate, innovate again, if you're I wasn't an athlete on the boat, so it wasn't necessarily about going to the gym, but certainly doing research, doing testing, working on the boat overnight before I went out the next day. It is a competition, so that the longer, the harder you work, assuming you still keep your performance up, the better you're going to do. So it was an obsession. I accepted that I never it never occurred to me that I don't want to keep doing it right. It was really the logistics. It was thinking, because of the cup had gone to court, we'd had the deed of gift match. Everything had been on hold for a while. It got going again, and the rules changed and there were fewer teams. I'd actually spent a bit of time fundraising for the team that had come out of Valencia to keep it going until the eventual San Francisco cup. So that was interesting as well, saying that, you know, is it getting the reception that I hoped it would, in terms of people investing in it and seeing the value, and kind of looking at it and saying, Okay, now I've got to move to San Francisco the next one, who knows where it's going to be, the format and all those things, you just sort of trade it off and say, Well, if I can make a go of something where I can do it in my hometown, it can be just as interesting, because the technical challenges is just as fascinating. And it's really about, can I create this little environment that I control, where I can do the same fun stuff that I was doing in the cup in terms of tech development, but also make it a business and make a difference to the world and make it commercially viable. And that was really the challenge. And saying that, that was the motivation, to say, if I can take the thing that interests me from the cup and apply it to a commercial technological challenge, then I'll have the best of the best of both worlds.   Michael Hingson ** 44:44 What? What made you really go into doing drones after the yacht stuff?   Dario Valenza ** 44:52 So yeah, certainly that aerial data capture piece, but also the it's very announced. I guess. So most of the work that I was doing in the cup was around aeroelastic optimization, lightweight structures, which really dynamics, yeah. And so, you know, a yacht is a plane with one wing in the water and one wing in the air. It's all fluids. The maths is the same, the physics is the same, the materials are the same. If you do it well in the cup, you win. If you do it well in drones, you win also. But you win by going further and being more efficient and economical at doing these missions. And so it's sort of like having this superpower where you can say, I can make this tool really good that's going to give me an advantage. Let's go and see if that actually makes a difference in the market.   Michael Hingson ** 45:44 Well, I mean, as we know, the only difference really, between water and air is that the molecules are further apart in air than they are in water. So why? It really isn't that much different? He said, being a physicist and picking on chemists, but you know, I do understand what you're saying. So when did you actually start carbonics? Was that when you went into the Drone   Dario Valenza ** 46:05 World? So the business itself early 2012 and as I said, those are a few years there where we're doing custom work. And as it happened, I ended up supplying to New Zealand because we built an A class catamaran, which is effectively a little America's Cup boat for the punters, kind of thing that did well in some regattas. It caught the attention of the team New Zealand guys. They decided to use them as a training platform. We did a world championship where they were skipping the boats the carbonics built did really well in that sort of top five spots got a bunch of commercial orders off the back of that, which then brought some money into subsidize the drones, etc, etc. So by the time we were properly so the first time we flew our airframe would have been, you know, 2015   Michael Hingson ** 46:55 but nobody has created an America's Cup for drones yet. So there's a project for you.   Dario Valenza ** 47:01 They're all sort of drone racing, so I'm not surprised. Yeah, and I think again, it's really interesting. So when you look at motorsport and yacht racing in the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, the 2000s it really was a test bet, because you had to build something, go compete with it, learn from it, repeat. And you'd get, you know, the case of motorsport, traction control, ABS, all that stuff. In the case of sailing, that the use of, you know, modern fiber materials for ropes and structures, that was really sort of the cauldron where the development happened. And I think that was sort of the result of an analog world, so to speak, where you had to build things to know. I think now, with better compute and a more sophisticated role that simulations can play, it's still there is value in competition, but I think it's done in a different way. You're doing it. The key is to iterate virtually as much as possible before you build something, rather than building as many things as possible and doing the development that way.   Michael Hingson ** 48:13 Well, here's an interesting Oh, go ahead, yeah.   Dario Valenza ** 48:16 So I think that affects, certainly, how sport is seen in terms of there's probably more emphasis on the actual athletic competition, on the technology, because there are just other areas now where that development is happening, and SpaceX drones, there are more commercial places where control systems, electronic structures are really being pushed well before it was mainly in sport.   Michael Hingson ** 48:45 Well, here's a business question for you. How do you identify value that is something that you uniquely can do, that other people can't, and that here's the big part, people will pay for it,   Dario Valenza ** 49:01 cost per kilometer of scan is really my answer in the case of carbonics, saying you want to get a digital twin of a power transmission line over 800 kilometers. You can do that with a helicopter, and it's going to cost 1000s of dollars, and you're going to burn tons of fuel, and you can only get so close, etc. So you can only do it in visual conditions, and that's sort of the current best practice. That's how it's done. You can do it with satellites, but you can't really get in close enough yet in terms of resolution and independent on orbits and weather. You can do it by having someone drive or walk along the line, and that's stupendously inefficient. You can do it with multi rotor drones, and then, yeah, you might be able to do five kilometers at a time, but then you got to land and relocate and launch again, and you end up with this big sort of disparity of data sets that go stitch together by the time you add that all up. It's actually more expensive than a helicopter. Or you could do it with a drone like. Fly for 800 kilometers, which is making it Yes, and making a drone that can fly for 800 kilometers is not trivial, and that's where the unique value sits. And it's not just the airframe that the airframe holds it all up, but you have to have the redundancies to command and control, the engineering certifications, the comms, the stability, the payload triggering and geo tagging. So all of that stuff has to work. And the value of carbonics is, yes, the carbon fiber in the airframe, but also the the team ethos, which, again, comes out of that competition world, to really grab the low hanging fruit, make it all work, get it out there and be flexible, like we've had missions with stuff hasn't gone to plan, and we've fixed it, and we've still delivered the data. So the value is really being able to do something that no one else can do.   Michael Hingson ** 50:54 So I assume that you're still having fun as a founder and the owner of a company,   51:02 sometimes,   Michael Hingson ** 51:05 more often than not, one would hope,   Dario Valenza ** 51:07 Oh, absolutely, yeah. I mean, obviously there's a huge amount of pride in seeing now we're 22 people, some of certainly leaders in the field, some of the best in the world, the fact that they have chosen to back the vision, to spend years of their professional life making it happen, according to the thing that I started, I mean that that's flattering and humbling. There's always a challenge. It's always interesting. Again, having investors and all that you're not it's not all on my shoulders. People that are also invested, literally, who have the same interests and we support each other. But at the same time, it's not exactly certain. In terms of you're always working through prices and looking at what's going to happen in a day a year, six months, but you sort of get used to it and say, Well, I've done this willingly. I know there's a risk, but it's fun and it's worth it, and we'll get there. And so you do it   Michael Hingson ** 52:10 well, you're the you're the visionary, and that that brings excitement to it all. And as long as you can have fun and you can reward yourself by what you're doing. It doesn't get any better than that.   Dario Valenza ** 52:26 So they tell me, yeah, how do you absolutely, how do you   Michael Hingson ** 52:31 create a good, cohesive team?   Dario Valenza ** 52:36 Values, I think, are the base of them would be very clear about what we are and what we aren't. It's really interesting because I've never really spent any time in a corporate environment, nor do I want to. So keeping that informal fun element, where it's fairly egalitarian, it's fairly focused, we're not too worried about saying things how they are and offending people. We know we're all in it together. It's very much that focus and common goal, I think, creates the bond and then communication like being absolutely clear about what are we trying to do? What are the priorities? What are the constraints? And constantly updating each other when, when one department is having an issue and it's going to hold something up, we support each other and we adjust accordingly, and we move resources around. But yeah, I think the short answer is culture you have to have when someone walks in, there's a certain quality to the atmosphere that tells you what this team is about, right? And everyone is on their page, and it's not for everyone. Again, we don't demand that people put in their heart and soul into 24/7 but if you don't, you probably don't want   Michael Hingson ** 53:56 to be there. Yeah, makes sense. So what kind of advice would you give to someone who's starting out in a career or considering what they want to do with their lives?   Dario Valenza ** 54:08 Where do I start? Certainly take, take the risks while you're young and independent, you don't have a lot to lose. Give it a go and be humble. So getting my experience going into the cup like my approach was, I'll clean the floors, I'll be the Gopher, I'll work for free, until you guys see some value, like I'm it's not about what am I going to get out of this? It's how do I get involved, and how do I prove myself? And so being open and learning, being willing to put in the hours. And I think at one point there was a comment during the trial that he doesn't know what he's doing, but he's really keen, and his attitude is good. And I think that's that's how you want to be, because you can learn the thing you. That you need to have the attitude to be involved and have have a go.   Michael Hingson ** 55:05 Have fun. Yeah, you have to decide to have fun.   Dario Valenza ** 55:14 Yeah, absolutely. You have to be interested in what you're doing, because if you're doing it for the money, yes, it's nice when you get the paycheck, but you don't have that passion to really be motivated and put in the time. So right by this is that the Venn diagram right, find something you're interested in, that someone is willing to pay you for, and that you're good at, not easy, but having that openness and the humble and saying, Well, I'm don't try and get to the top straightaway, like get in, prove yourself. Learn, improve, gain skills, and probably, in my case, the value of cross pollination. So rather than sort of going into one discipline and just learning how it's done and only seeing that, look at the analogous stuff out there and see how you can apply it. Yeah. So again, from from boats to drones, from cars to boats, from really racing to business, abstract the problem into what are we trying to solve? What are the variables? How's it been done elsewhere, and really knowing when to think by analogy and when to think from first principles,   Michael Hingson ** 56:23 that makes sense. And with that, I'm going to thank you. We've been doing this for an hour. My gosh, is life fun or what? But I really appreciate it. Well, there you go. I appreciate you being here, and this has been a lot of fun. I hope that all of you out there watching and listening have liked our podcast episode. Please let us know. I'd appreciate it if you'd email me. Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I B, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is w, w, w, dot Michael hingson, that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, and I would ask you how, how can people reach out to you? If they'd like to reach out to you and maybe learn more about what you do, maybe join the team?   Dario Valenza ** 57:09 Yeah, probably the easiest way would be LinkedIn, just Dario Valencia. Otherwise, my email is just Dario D, A, R, I, o@carbonics.com.au.au,   Michael Hingson ** 57:21 being Australian, and Valenc spelled V, A,   Dario Valenza ** 57:25 l e n z, A, but the email is just dario@carbonics.com.au You don't need to know how to spell my last name, right? Yeah, sorry for the LinkedIn. It'll be Dario Valencia, V A, l e n z A, or look at the carbonics profile on LinkedIn, and I'll be one of the people who works. There you   Michael Hingson ** 57:43 go. Well again, this has been fun, and we appreciate you, and hope that people will reach out and want to learn more. If you know of anybody who might make a good guest, or if any of you watching or listening out there might know of anyone who would be a good guest for unstoppable mindset, I sure would appreciate it if you'd let us know, we really value your help with that. We're always looking for more people to be on the podcast, so please don't hesitate. And also, wherever you're listening or watching, we sure would appreciate it if you give us a five star rating. We really appreciate your views, especially when they're positive, but we like all the comments, so however you're listening and so on, please give us a five star rating and let us know how we can even do better next time. But Dario, again, I want to thank you. Really appreciate you being here with us today. This has been a lot of fun, and I'm glad I learned a lot today. So thank you very much.   58:37 My pleasure. You   **Michael Hingson ** 58:43 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

From time to time I am contacted by someone who says they have an interesting and thought provoking guest who would be perfect for Unstoppable Mindset. Such was the case when I was contacted about our guest this time, Dre Baldwin. Dre and I had an initial conversation and I invited him to appear as a guest. I must say that he more than exceeded my expectations. And now he is back for a second time with us with more stories and insights.   You may recall from my first episode with him that Dre grew up in Philadelphia. He wanted to do something with sports and tried out various options until he discovered Basketball in high school. While he wasn't considered overly exceptional and only played one year in high school he realized that Basketball was the sport for him.   Dre went to Penn State and played all four of his college years. Again, while he played consistently and reasonably well, he was not noticed and after college he was not signed to a professional team. He worked at a couple of jobs for a time and then decided to try to get noticed for basketball by going to a camp where he could be seen by scouts and where he could prove he had the talent to make basketball a profession. As he will tell us, eventually he did get a contract to play professionally. Other things happened along the way as you will hear. Dre discovered Youtube and the internet and began posting basketball tips which became popular.   In this episode we continue to discuss with Dre the lessons he wishes to convey as well as his life philosophy. Dre discuss more about the value and need for personal initiative. He tells us the value of having a personal initiative mindset and how that can lead to high performance.   I asked Dre about how playing basketball prepared him for his work in business. His answer will surprise you. It did me. As he points out, his business preparation came earlier and in different ways than playing basketball.   I also asked Dre why he left playing professional basketball. Again, his answer is fascinating. I will leave that for Dre to tell you.   I hope you enjoy my talk with Dre as much as I. Dre Baldwin provided many lessons we all can use. Who knows? Dre, you and I may talk again. Stay tuned.       About the Guest:   As CEO and Founder of Work On Your Game Inc., Dre Baldwin has given 4 TEDxTalks on Discipline, Confidence, Mental Toughness & Personal Initiative and has authored 35 books. He has appeared in national campaigns with Nike, Finish Line, Wendy's, Gatorade, Buick, Wilson Sports, STASH Investments and DIME magazine.    Dre has published over 8,000 videos to 142,000+ subscribers, his content being consumed over 103 million times.    Dre's daily Work On Your Game MasterClass has amassed over 2,900 episodes and more than 7.3 million downloads.    In just 5 years, Dre went from the end of his high school team's bench to a 9-year professional basketball career. He played in 8 countries including Lithuania, Germany, Montenegro, Slovakia and Germany.    Dre invented his Work On Your Game framework as a "roadmap in reverse" to help professionals with High Performance, Consistency and Results.    A Philadelphia native, Dre lives in Miami.   Ways to connect Dre:   http://Instagram.com/DreBaldwin http://YouTube.com/Dreupt https://www.facebook.com/WorkOnYourGameUniversity http://LinkedIn.com/in/DreAllDay http://X.com/DreAllDay http://TikTok.com/WorkOnYourGame   Kindly use this link for our Free book, The Third Day

Tabatha Jones spent 20 years in the corporate world which she joined right out of high school. Soon after beginning work in a call center she began to discover her own leadership skills and began forging her own path in the corporate environment. Tabatha found that she could empower others to be better than they thought by providing a natural, honest and positive leadership style.   As Tabatha describes, she learned how to communicate and help connect the C Suite leaders in companies to those they lead. She learned to be a positive conduit to help all parts of companies where she served to learn and grow. She tells us stories about how she thrived as a leader and how she created positive change wherever she worked. She provides us with some really good leadership tips.   While Tabatha says her programs today are mainly to help women who more often do not have the confidence to lead, she states emphatically that her teachings do help men as well and she has male clients to prove it.   As Tabatha says, while she was a corporate leader for many years, she also used that time to coach and help others to learn leadership skills. Seven years ago Tabatha decided to leave working for others to form her own coaching firm, Empowered Leadership Coaching, LLC. She helps people learn how they can positively grow and advance in their own careers.   I very much enjoyed this episode and found that Tabatha and I have a lot of leadership views in common. For example, we discuss trust and the need for real trust in work environments. She tells a story about a mistake she made as a leader and how she dealt with it to keep the trust of all persons involved. I think you have a lot to gain from Tabatha. At the end of this episode she tells us how to get a free eBook that provides invaluable lessons to help you in your own efforts to rise in the work world.       About the Guest:   Tabatha Jones is the CEO of Empowered Leadership Coaching, LLC, a Career Advancement & Leadership Coach, author, and keynote speaker based in the SF Bay Area, working with clients nationwide. With over 20 years of experience leading high-performing technical teams in Corporate America, she transitioned into coaching at the age of 50, driven by her passion for helping women break through career barriers and achieve leadership success. Tabatha specializes in working with ambitious Gen-X women who are ready to stop playing small and make the next years the most impactful of their careers. Through her personalized coaching programs, she empowers her clients to develop strategic career plans, build unshakable confidence, elevate their visibility, and secure significant promotions. Her clients, including leaders at companies like Comcast, Cisco, Abbvie, PG&E, and Tyson, have successfully climbed the corporate ladder, developed standout leadership skills, and positioned themselves as top candidates for advancement. As a sought-after keynote speaker, Tabatha inspires audiences with actionable insights on leadership, career advancement, and empowerment. She is also the author of Promotion Ready in 3 Months: The Women's Guide to Career Advancement, available on Amazon.   Ways to connect Tabatha:   Website: https://www.empowered-leader.com/   Connect with me on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tabatha-jones-4485854/   Grab a Free Resource: GenX Promotion Planning Assessment: https://www.empowered-leader.com/promotionassessment   Purchase a copy of my book on Amazon: https://a.co/d/gpoqjNw   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another edition, an exciting edition of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and the unexpected is everything that doesn't have anything to do with inclusion or diversity, which is most things, according to my diversity friends, but that's okay, our guest today. How do I do this? Okay, I'll just be up front. As many of you know, I use a screen reader, which is a piece of software to verbalize whatever comes across the screen. And when my screen reader finds my guest today's name, it pronounces it Tabatha. Don't you like that? Of course, it's Tabitha, but Tabata, so, so Tabitha. Tabatha Jones, welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Tabatha Jones ** 02:09 Oh, thank you so much for having me here. And Tabatha sounds fairly International, and maybe I'll take it, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 02:16 well, you can have it. It's yours. I don't think that the screen reader will mind a whole lot. But But what we're glad you're here now. I met Tabitha, as I have mentioned in the past with others, through an event that I attend, pada palooza. And Tabitha and I were both at the most recent pot of palooza. So what took you there? Are you starting a podcast, or are you just wanting to be interviewed by podcasters, or do you already have a podcast and you've done 1000s of episodes already?   Tabatha Jones ** 02:46 Well, I haven't done 1000s of episodes. I'm a fairly new podcaster. I've launched my own it's called the Gen X, free mix life, laughs and next acts. I think we're at about Episode 11. I was actually really interested in joining pada palusa to meet other podcasters. Here's some success stories and learn some great tips and tricks as I'm continuing to build mine out and and engage my audience well. So if there's   Michael Hingson ** 03:11 any way I can help, you, just need to shout out and glad to do it. And if you ever need a guest, and if I can fit the mold, I'm also glad to do that. It's always fun to to be a guest. When people want to come on unstoppable mindset, and I discover that they have a podcast, I always tell them, Well, you know, and many of them say, Well, do you charge for guests? And I say, Yes, I do. The charges you have to let me be a guest on your podcast, or if I go on to their podcast. I say I charge for that, and the charges that you have to come on my cop podcast to be a guest. So it works out.   Tabatha Jones ** 03:47 It's a fantastic tip. I'm taking that down and definitely having you on the podcast. Oh my gosh, yeah, that'd be fun.   Michael Hingson ** 03:53 Well, it it is cute. Actually, last week of a couple in Australia, a couple people emailed me and they they want to come on unstoppable mindset. And I was glad to do that. And they said, you know, but, but what's your charge? And I said, Well, I know you have a podcast. I have to be on yours. They said, Oh, we can, we can pay that. So it's fine. It is. You know, podcasting is so, so much fun. I did radio for years at the University of California at Irvine, and I like radio. Radio is a wonderful thing, but you're more structured because you have a limited amount of time. You've got to do certain things, you've got commercials you got to do, and sponsors that you have to satisfy, and some of that can happen with the podcast, but it's still not nearly as rigid, which makes it a lot of fun.   Tabatha Jones ** 04:45 Yeah, absolutely. And there's so much variety out there. One of the coolest things for me about starting a podcast is it's led me to so many other podcast shows that I had never listened to before, yours included. So now I think I'm following maybe. 30 to 40 different shows that I hadn't heard of until very recently, I'd say, probably the last six to eight months, and I'm loving it. I learned something new every single day. I learned something about someone's experience that leads me to check more into what they've shared. And it's really been fun. It's been a much more fun adventure for me than the social media that I was kind of, kind of dabbling in a little bit, but podcasts, it's just so much more personal and fun. It   Michael Hingson ** 05:27 is. It's much more connectional. And social media is just so impersonal, and people spend so much time doing it, and I'm amazed at some of the people who spend so many hours on it. I could, I don't do a lot of stuff on social media. I will post things occasionally, and I'm amazed at how fast some people, as soon as they as soon as I post, within minutes, they're responding to it. And I'm going, how do you do that? But anyway, it's people focus on that. But it's so impersonal compared to doing things like podcasting, because you do get to know people. You get to learn about people. And as I tell people constantly, if I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else who listens to this podcast, then I'm not doing my job well, which is kind of the way I look at it. And I always like to learn things from everyone who comes on and who I get to interact with because of the podcast.   Tabatha Jones ** 06:21 Yeah, so much fun. It is. You know, one of the things when we met that really connected me to you was just your story and sharing your author journey on top of it. So, yeah, you're kind of stuck with me in your fan club for a little bit following   Michael Hingson ** 06:40 you Well, thank you. And it is, it is fun to do that and following you back. It's, it's a lot of fun. And as I said, I enjoy getting to know people and connecting and learning which is cool, and to introduce you a little bit more to people, and I'll get to letting you do some of that too. But Tabitha is the CEO of empowered leadership coaching LLC, which is obviously a coaching organization, and you started doing that when you were 50. Of course I could, I could, circuitously get to and and how long ago was that, which would then tell us your age, but I won't that's   Tabatha Jones ** 07:25 all right. As a career advancement coach, I tell people all the time, don't put those long dates on your resume. People will start guessing your age, and then we've got another whole situation. I think the good thing with coaching is age and experience go together, and people see that a little bit differently, which has been fun. Yeah, I left it, you know, corporate at 50, and started my own business. I had been doing it on the side, but now I get to do it every day, and it's so   Michael Hingson ** 07:50 much fun. Well, seriously, how long have you been doing it?   Tabatha Jones ** 07:54 You know, for officially. Oh, I gotta do math. 2017. Is when I started. So,   Michael Hingson ** 08:01 oh, okay, well, there you go. So, 10 years, okay, yeah, and then   Tabatha Jones ** 08:04 I had been doing it as part of my job for more than 20 years. So as a leader in corporate, more than 20 years of coaching experience came from that sure   Michael Hingson ** 08:13 when you've got seven years of official long term, real life, constant experience, which is, which is great too. Well, tell us about the early Tabitha growing up and some of those kinds of things that would get us to know you better.   Tabatha Jones ** 08:28 Well, I grew up in a little town called Livermore. It's not so little anymore out here in California, in the East Bay, I am the oldest of four, and you   Michael Hingson ** 08:37 were never irradiated by the the accelerators, or any of the things that Livermore Labs.   Tabatha Jones ** 08:41 No, there was so much Hush, hush, secret stuff going on out there. But, you know, it was always very cool. They had a swimming pool you could go swim at. I think it was 75 cents to go swim for the whole day at the pool. And, you know, as a grown up, I'm all, should we really have been swimming there? I don't   Michael Hingson ** 08:58 know. Oh, it was safe. Well, it was absolutely Were you ever there after dark? No, so you don't know whether anything glowed in the dark or not. So you didn't probably you were safe.   Tabatha Jones ** 09:07 Probably safe. Yeah, nope. Genetics kids, when the street lights came on, we went home.   Michael Hingson ** 09:11 There you go. But anyway, so Livermore, yeah,   Tabatha Jones ** 09:15 Livermore, and then let's see. So I finished high school. Didn't really know what I was going to do. I stuck a little toe in the telecommunications industry at AT and T and got a job there right out of high school, answering phones and learning all kinds of great things. Did a lot of growing up in that space. Gosh, it was a it was an interesting journey. I actually was sitting in a call center taking phone calls during the 1989 earthquake, which, oh, boy, you may remember, right? I know I was training somebody, and I just looked at the person. I said, we're gonna hang up and go under the desk. That's what we're doing. And that was the day before my birthday. So I got my birthday off that year, which. You know, as they planned   10:00 out very well,   Tabatha Jones ** 10:02 yeah. But terrible, terrible, tragic earthquake, unfortunately. But, you know, I do just kind of try to make a little lighter of it with that. You know, the birthday off, but it is. It was an interesting time, for sure. I lived   Michael Hingson ** 10:16 in Vista, California at the time. Well, actually, I take it back. I lived in Mission Viejo. We hadn't moved to VISTA yet, although I had a job in Carlsbad, and I remember coming out to get on a bus to go from Carlsbad back up to Mission Viejo. And I was going to listen to the World Series, and it wasn't on, and it took me about 15 minutes before, I finally found a radio station that announced that there had been an earthquake. And then we got home, and then we started. We just Karen was was at home, and we just started watching it on TV, and they had all the the live shots and all that, and the freeway collapse and so on. It was, needless to say, quite the event. Karen and I survived. We were in, not married yet in, well, 19, whatever that would have been, 69 or 70 or 71 the Sylmar quake. I don't think it was in 74 I think it was earlier than that. But there was a big earthquake up in Sylmar, and we felt it at UC Irvine, and then we had the Whittier Narrows and Northridge quakes, so we felt those as well. But yeah, that had to be pretty rough in 89 for all of you up there.   Tabatha Jones ** 11:38 Yeah, it was pretty, pretty interesting. You know, from that point, you know, I just was training somebody as I as I mentioned, and, you know, we, we took that next day and couple of days kind of getting things together, working through the call center, handling a lot of emergency calls and things that were going on. And I'd say that's probably the first time I felt that call to leadership, you know, and realized I wanted to do more than being a call center, answering phones. There's nothing wrong with that, but for me, it wasn't the end all. And I started working on mapping out, how am I going to build my career here? Managed to advance a couple of times, and then went through a major layoff. So AT and T we all know, went through a lot of change over the years, but in the 80s and early 90s, there was a lot. So I did a couple of different things in between, and then one day, I walked into what was the Viacom cable office and decided I'm going to apply for a job here. It's just six months for experience, and we'll see where it goes. I fell in love with the cable industry. As weird as it sounds, I loved it, so I worked up really quickly into a lead role, and then started shifting into technology, which is where I spent most of my career, leading those technical teams and just really loving it. But yeah, yeah, that's kind of the journey from the early life into the career side of things. But   Michael Hingson ** 13:05 what kind of things did you do in as a leader for Viacom?   Tabatha Jones ** 13:09 So Viacom was where you in, went through. So I was in the call center. Initially became a lead there, moved into credit and collections and learned everything there was to learn there. It wasn't really my jam, but it was a great place to be. And then I moved into the Information Services Department, and you probably remember this back in the day of punching down phone lines in the little box, in different I don't know if you ever did that, but yeah, soldering cat five lines, crawling under desk, climbing up ladders, doing all those things. So that was early. It days before the internet. Still, I think crazy to say,   Michael Hingson ** 13:48 so did you do that? Or did you lead people who did that? So I   Tabatha Jones ** 13:52 did that early on. I learned everything I could in that department. I learned how to print reports. I knew learned how to compile data. I learned how to code the billing system, moved into project management from there, still on the information services side, and led some really huge projects through that time. We went through three companies. We landed at Comcast. That was where I was for the longest, but never really left, you know, my role, and just fell in love with the technology, because it changes all the time. It's never the same day twice. I loved working with technical people, and learned really quickly that one of my gifts was being able to translate between the Technical Suite and the C suite. So taking those great ideas and going and securing the budget or coming in with here's what the leadership team is thinking. Here's how I think we can do it. What are your thoughts and being able to translate and move things forward really fast. That's where I joined the leadership team and stayed, and I loved it. Climbing the ladder at Comcast was a lot of fun for me. Yeah. Do   Michael Hingson ** 15:00 you think that really taking the time to get that technical knowledge and learn those various jobs, even though you necessarily didn't do them all the time, but learning how to do those jobs? Do you think that was a valuable thing for you, looking back on it now,   Tabatha Jones ** 15:19 yeah, I do in some ways. And I spoke at a women in telecom sorry, it's women in tech and telecom seminar a few years back. And one of the things that we know is women don't advance as quickly into technical leadership roles, and being able to say in that room, leadership is not a technical skill. Just let the light bulbs off for people, because we hold ourselves back. And it's not just women, but it definitely happens in the female space, where we will hold ourselves back. Oh, I'm not technical enough, oh, I don't know enough. Oh, I can't code Python. It. It doesn't always matter for me, having the basis helped because I understood the work the team was doing. I understood quicker ways to do things. I had done them myself the hard way, but it gave me a little bit more, I'd say, street cred with the team, not that they ever expected me to code a macro or build an automation program, but because I could come and speak to them in a language that made sense, then they could go build the thing and do their jobs. So I do think it helped. It helped give me really great insight to what could be and let us really drive innovation quickly, which was super fun. I   Michael Hingson ** 16:41 agree with you on that I felt in everything that I did as a as a leader, working in a variety of different kinds of roles, I felt it necessary to learn the things that the people who worked for me and with me did because at least I could then articulate them. I could talk about them. I didn't necessarily have to do them all the time, and there were some things that I wasn't going to be able to do, for example, for four years or three and a half years, four I owned a company that sold PC based CAD systems to architects, computer aided design systems, for those who don't know, to architects and engineers and so on. And they were some of the early PC based CAD systems. We started in 1985 doing that. And needless to say, that was and and still is very much a highly graphic environment. And that isn't something that I'm going to be able to sit down in front of a computer terminal and do, because the technology, even today, doesn't exist to describe all of that information for me, so that I have access to it as quickly and as efficiently as a person who can see but even though I wouldn't be able to run a CAD system, I knew how to do it. So I could then sit down with an architect in front of a machine and ask them what they wanted to do, and then described them what they needed to do to make it happen. So I actually made them part of the process of showing themselves how the cast system worked by them actually working it. Now I also have people who work for me, but I did know how to do that, and I think that was extremely important. And I've always felt that having that knowledge is is helpful. I do tend to be very technical. I've got a master's degree in physics and so on. And I I think that having that technical knowledge is kind of part of the way I operate, which is fine, but still, I think that having that technical knowledge, really, even if it's only to be able to talk about it at the right times, was a very helpful thing and made me a better leader.   Tabatha Jones ** 18:59 Yeah, absolutely would agree with that, and understanding just the basics of what can and can't be done, or, you know, what my limitations were, and being vulnerable with going back to my team and saying, This is as far as I know how to take it. I need you to walk me through what the next steps are, or what your ideas are, or what your thoughts are. And I had a wonderful team. I'd say one of the benefits of not being the most technical person on the team is then I'm not seen as someone who's micromanaging. I'm not seen as someone who has all the answers. And for my teams, that worked out great because they loved showing their innovation. They loved showing ideas and bringing new technology, tools and things to the forefront, which made it a lot more fun for them, too. And I'd say one of the coolest things I did with my team was I was given, you know, in corporate world, you're sometimes gifted new responsibilities, and one of the new responsibilities. I was gifted with, was creating a quality control team, and this team was going to validate all of the data that the Information Services coding team was developing in the billing system. And it was needed the error rate, I mean, the accuracy rate, rather, was only about 70 ish percent. Wow. So it needed to change. It was impacting our frontline, impacting our techs. It was causing revenue gaps, right, customer experience problems. The vision that was given to me is we want you to hire three people, and they're going to manually validate this data all day long, and me being a hybrid technical people person said, Hold the phone. We're not doing that. So I went and hired someone who was an expert at SQL and Tableau. We then hired someone who was an expert at Quality Assurance, because that's what she had been doing in the call center, was validating orders and making sure the billing their statements were going out correct. So she had the manual aspect. And then we hired a third person who wasn't quite as technical as the first, but definitely a really good balance between the two and between the three of them and their ideas and their skills, and then my abilities as a leader to guide them through. You know, this is what we need. This is the vision. This is the budget, this is the the outcome that we want to get to. We were able to build something that was automated, that drove accuracy up to 98.1% Wow, and it's probably better today, but it's just because that the ability to see people who can bring in the best parts of their knowledge and then work together to build something. That's what helps technology advance so much faster.   Michael Hingson ** 21:44 Yeah, but it's but it's important to be able to do that. And you you learn to have the vision, or innately, you have the vision to to bring that about. And it sounds to me like all of the people that that you were leading really respected you, because you were, first of all, you were not a threat to them, and you clearly showed an interest in what they did, and you loved to hear them talk about it, because that taught you things that you didn't know   Tabatha Jones ** 22:17 exactly, oh my gosh, and they were great about what I'd say is dumbing things down. I'd sit there sometimes and would be listening to somebody, an analyst, who was excited and explaining all these great things they were doing. And finally, my face would say, okay, hold the phone. We need to step back just a teeny bit. I needed to bring it down, maybe just a little bit more. And once I got it, then everybody would be just jazzed and so excited and out to share, and, you know, made sure that they were getting to do part of the presenting when it went to higher levels, so that they could get credit and feel that value, which is so, so critical to help, you know, just boost that morale and keep inspiring people.   Michael Hingson ** 22:53 The other part of that, though, is you are also teaching them some probably sorely needed communication skills, because they're used to just talking very technical, and they're used to just talking to each other, and everybody gets it right away. But the reality is that I would think that they came to realize, well, maybe we need to present it in a little bit different way, because not everybody looks at it the way we do   Tabatha Jones ** 23:21 exactly that's where a lot of coaching came in and helping people work together better in the communication space, and then bringing it forward in a way that people understood. We did a really cool program. It was called insights. It exists out there, and there are people who are certified to administer it, but it basically is a personality assessment based on colors. So red, yellow, blue, green, and blue is generally your very technical, more introverted detail specific people. The Office of that is yellow, and I am very high yellow, which is your, include me. Bring me in. Let's have a party. Let's talk about it. So it was good for me, because it caused me to bring that yellow energy down a bit, which kept the, you know, the conversations going and the conversations open, and they learned to elevate that yellow energy a little bit so we could meet in the middle really well. And some of them had different, you know, red or green in there. But it was really interesting to be leading a team with such opposite energy. From that perspective,   Michael Hingson ** 24:27 did you ever find people who just resisted learning to meet in the middle or learning to do some of the things that you really wanted them to do, and they just didn't want to do that at all?   Tabatha Jones ** 24:41 Oh yes, yes, there were a couple, and that required more coaching, right? So one who had been used to working in a very specific way before we were reorganized and he was moved under me, it took multiple times and finally, a mild threat to. Get him to come forward and come on board with the new process, because sometimes it's really easy to stick in doing things the old way. He had been doing it for 1520, years. And I joke when I say threats. I don't threaten people, but you know, it was kind of a I need you to come up with the rest of the team. Here's what you're doing and how it's impacting the team, and even though it feels like it's making your customer happy in the long run, it's not because they're going to have to work with other people, and we need to make sure that they understand that this has changed, and then another who was more my way or the highway, and that took, you know, again, a bit of coaching. So his leader worked for me, and so his leader and I would come up with different plans and different strategies to put him in positions where he had to stay a little bit more quiet and let the team members bring forward their ideas. And rather than him jumping to a no, it was, we want you to start asking these three questions, and, you know, whatever the questions were to get the conversation going, and then the light bulb started going off for him. Like, wow. Some of these individuals have definitely had different training on, you know, whatever type of technology it is that makes perfect sense. What if we combine this so he was able to actually help us bring out the best in everyone, once he took that step back and really started listening and getting a bit more curious.   Michael Hingson ** 26:30 Well, that that's, you know, of course, a wonderful skill to have, because people need to recognize that not everybody is where they are   Tabatha Jones ** 26:42 exactly. It's true. And you know, I kind of think back when we were talking about the leadership aspect and leading technical teams, I coach a lot of people on interview skills and helping them present their best selves for the job that they're interviewing for. And one thing that seems to be a habit for people who are very technical and are also leaders is deferring so much their technical skills, and it's good, but you've got to have that balance. When you're applying for a leadership role, what happens that is very disappointing, is they'll be told, Well, we're not really seeing your leadership skills or your leadership qualities or not feeling like you're a good fit with this team. Usually, when a company is hiring a technical people leader, they want to know you can lead people, because not everybody can do both,   Michael Hingson ** 27:40 right, or they haven't learned how to   Tabatha Jones ** 27:43 right. It's true. Not everybody wants to. Sometimes they think they do because it's the next logical step, but sometimes people are just really happy being hands on others. To your point, you can learn. You can step into maybe a lead role, and start learning how to let go of some things and and get more comfortable with not being the smartest person in the room, because once you're the leader, you've got to have that balance and, and it's a learning a learning curve, for sure,   Michael Hingson ** 28:09 yeah. And unfortunately, there are way too many people, certainly, a lot of them are technical who think they're the smartest person in the room, whether they are not, and then some of them are. But still, that's not always the solution to making things work, especially if you're working in a team.   Tabatha Jones ** 28:29 Absolutely, yeah, it's all about the team. And it can't be. They always say there's no me and team. But technically, if you rearrange the letters there, kind of is that's maybe snow i Maybe it's No, I in team. No, I in team.   Michael Hingson ** 28:43 Yeah, there's no i That's true. But you know, one of my favorite books I enjoy reading it often, is actually the Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. Have you ever read that?   Tabatha Jones ** 28:55 I have not read that. I am aware of it. I have not bought it yet. It's a   Michael Hingson ** 29:00 short book, relatively speaking, but it's great because it really puts teamwork in perspective, and it really defines what should happen in a well functioning team, including the fact that members of the team can hold each other accountable when the team is comfortable with each other. And then, of course, it's all the team leader who has to really bring people together and meld the team into a cohesive working group. But the good team leaders can do that and understand what their role has to be in getting everybody to operate at peak performance.   Tabatha Jones ** 29:39 Love that. I will get that back on my list. Radical candor is kind of similar, as far as you know, being able to say what needs to be said and feeling like you're in a safe space to say it. Yeah, that's one of the things that I always found a little, I guess, frightening as a leader, is when I would talk to another leader and say, What feedback have you given this person? Well. Feedback is so negative, like no feedback given with love is there with the intention of helping the person grow and do better and understand what they're doing really well so they can keep doing that. So yeah, being able to let the team members or ask the team members hold each other accountable, be honest with each other, this isn't about feelings. This is about respect, and sometimes it's a hard conversation. It's really crunchy and uncomfortable. But once it happens, the trust that is built is it's unstoppable, well,   Michael Hingson ** 30:30 but feedback can also be a very positive thing. And it can be that you're doing a great job. Here's what you're doing. It isn't necessarily but you're not doing this right? It, it can be exactly a very positive thing. And there, there are certainly times that we all like to get that as well.   Tabatha Jones ** 30:47 Absolutely feedback is my favorite F word. I always say it is just, it's so important. And I've worked with people who have said, you know, I can't get feedback from my boss. I said, Well, what do you mean? And they said, Well, he All he says is just, you're doing a good job. Keep doing that. Yeah. Well, what specifically am i doing that's a good job. So feedback in itself is a skill, both giving it in a positive way and giving it in a constructive way. But all feedback is good when it's given with the right intention and it's given with, you know, just honesty and love. And   Michael Hingson ** 31:20 there's a skill in receiving feedback too and recognizing if you trust the feedback, the feeder backer, if you trust the person giving you the feedback, then you know that they're not out to get you. Yeah. And that's part of it is breaking through the usual shell that most of us probably a build up. Well, that person has some sort of alternative agenda they're out to get me. And that isn't always the case. And, oh, absolutely, unfortunately, sometimes it is, but it doesn't necessarily mean it always is. Yeah, I agree.   Tabatha Jones ** 31:54 You know, if you think back to feedback that you've been given throughout your life, is there a piece of feedback that you were given that really changed the way you do things. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 32:06 I can think of some, and I think that most of us can, because the people giving us the feedback were concerned about trying to help and concerned to try to get us to hear what others in the world are are saying or thinking. And if we take that to heart, that can be a very positive thing.   Tabatha Jones ** 32:32 Yeah, absolutely. One of the biggest foundations for me as a leader is trust and trust with my team, both going both directions to them, from me and from them to to from me to them, and from them to me. So complete trust. It's so important. And you know, knowing that I've had employees come and give me feedback, and it doesn't matter what level I was at or what level they were at, once, I knew that they were comfortable giving me feedback. I knew our relationship was strong, yeah, and, you know, I've had people come and say, I didn't really like the way that you said that. It would have been more impactful if you had done this. I've had clients come and say, you know, when you said that, I really reflected on it. And maybe we're not in the same spot. So let me say this again and see if you can, you can address it a different way. Great. If we don't have trust, we're not going to go anywhere. So it's such an important piece of of building trust. In   Michael Hingson ** 33:26 my new book, live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dog about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith. Long title, well at the end, the subtitle, but one of the things that I talk about is that I've learned a lot of lessons about dealing with fear and dealing with people from my dogs, because dogs do things differently than we do and don't have any near, anywhere near the stress that We do. For example, dogs are, I think, creatures that do love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. What dogs do, however, is that they tend to be less something is really hurt a dog. They tend to be more open to trust, and they want to build a trusting relationship with us if we're open to it, because they are, and when we recognize that and we truly build the trusting relationship, it's second to none. So then you've got the love part that is there, but the trusting part, it's a whole different story. And I know that when I start working with every guide dog and people say, Oh, how long does it take to really get used to a dog? My response is, it takes roughly a year. Because it takes a long time for both sides of the team to truly recognize and have enough confidence in the other that they have that trust that they need to have.   Tabatha Jones ** 34:59 Yeah. Dogs are so much better than people. I will tell you their behavior is so much better, but I get that and you know someone who adopted my last two dogs. One was three years old when I got her from the pound, and she lived to be 15, and my other one is she's eight. I got her when she was three from someone that was re homing her. But they do. They they teach you that I can love you, but I don't know that I trust you yet. I've got to build this up like I will lick you and throw a party when you come home, but don't be trying to pick me up yet. We're not there. Yeah. So, you know, I can imagine, with a guide dog, it's even more elevated, and I can't write to read your that book, because I just finished underdog. I did. I don't know why the name just went blank. I posted it on my Facebook and Instagram. I was so excited, but yeah, oh my gosh. I can't wait to read the new one. If you   Michael Hingson ** 35:48 get a chance with both of them, go review them at Amazon. So lovely. Get a we always appreciate reviews. So Amazon and Goodreads are the best places to go to go do reviews, and they're very helpful. But when you read, live like a guide dog, love to get your thoughts, and you're welcome to email me and love to chat about it as well. But you're right that there are so many things about dogs that really teach us a lot. One of my favorite things that I talk about a lot, and we deal with it and live like a guide dog is we, as people tend to what if everything to death. We What if everything well, what if this? What if that? And the reality is, most of the things that we're dealing with, what if about are things over which we have absolutely no control, and all we're doing is building up our own internal Sears, and we need to learn to get away from that. If we could just learn to focus on the things that we have control over and not worry about the rest. And of course, people will say, Well, but, but all this stuff is going on we gotta worry about. No, you don't. You can be aware of it without worrying about it. You can be aware of it without it interfering with your life. But you have control over that, but there are so many things in your life that you don't have control over. And my, my premier example of that, of course, is the World Trade Center. I am not convinced that all of the government departments working together would have been able to figure out what was happening and stop the attacks from half from occurring. But the result of that is, of course, that we had no control over the events occurring. What we absolutely have total control over is how we individually choose to deal with those events and how we choose to move forward.   Tabatha Jones ** 37:36 Yeah, absolutely, oh my gosh, it's so powerful and so true. And I'd say too with dogs is they don't let that little thing that bothered them four hours ago eat them up, or four days ago or four months ago. They don't generally hold a grudge unless something was pretty atrocious, where we will ruminate on a story or a conversation over and over and over again, sometimes it's just solved by a simple Hey, what did you mean when you said that? Or we'll just go and keep thinking about it and keep thinking about it. Dogs moved on. They're like, I've already had my snack in my walk, like we're good again. There's no grudge, there's no past concern, or I made a mistake this day. I'm never gonna cross that line again, because, you know, I did this thing, but humans are so are just wired so differently, just from, I'm sure, our life lessons and all the things that we've been through. But if we could live a little more like a dog, that would be kind of amazing. That guide dogs specifically,   Michael Hingson ** 38:35 I agree. And you know, the reality is that dogs do make mistakes, and one of the things that we learned to put it in terms of what we're talking about today, one of the things that we learn as guide dog handlers is how to give appropriate feedback, and that process has changed over the years, so now it's a much more positive process. We don't tend to yell at dogs, we don't tend to try to give sharp leash corrections, but rather, when they do it right, that's the time to truly reinforce it and say, what a good job you did it. And if you're training a dog to do a new thing or give them a new skill, reinforcing the time that they succeed is so much more powerful than ever saying you didn't do that right? And I think that's as true for humans as it is for dogs, but humans just don't tend to for all the reasons that you said, Trust like, like, maybe they should, but we always think that everybody has a hidden agenda, which is unfortunate, because we don't always necessarily have a hidden agenda. And even if we do, and if you feel like you can't trust me because you think I have a hidden agenda, you can always ask me about it, or you should, and that's something we just tend not to feel that much that we can do, because those aren't skills that we're taught when we're growing up.   Tabatha Jones ** 39:56 Yeah, it's very true, and you. Know when you mentioned the mistakes even thinking about that from a leadership perspective. When I first started leading in my last team, we had reorganized into a corporate structure, so I had new employees sitting across 40 some odd states. It was a big a big reorg, and I would be talking to people about different things. And I said, Well, why did you, you know, why did you do it this way? Oh, well, I realized I made a mistake, so I didn't want to get in trouble. So I thought if I went and I did this, then that would I'm like, wait a minute, stop. Let's let's pause, let's go back to get in trouble. Tell me about that. And I would hear, and I heard it from multiple people across the team that there was such a level of fear over making a mistake. And I said, you know, you're not coming to work with somebody's heart transplant in an ice chest, like, if you make a mistake, nobody's gonna die. Yeah, somebody's gonna get a little maybe mad because we're gonna hit a little bit of a revenue hiccup, or maybe have to send an apology notice to some customers that have a mistake on their bill. But nothing's that big that we can't learn from it, fix it correctly and make sure it doesn't happen again. And that was a huge shift, and that's something you know, where a dog will make a mistake they get through the correction to your point, positive reinforcement. We've got jerky treats, kind of redirect. If people only could take a jerky treat, that'd be great, but they don't. But you know, when a mistake happens, teaching people, teaching our kids, like it's okay to make a mistake, but let's talk about what we learned from it. Make a plan to do better, and figure out how we just don't let that happen again, and then if it happens again, okay, let's have a different conversation. What? What did you notice? Did we miss something in the process? Less last time? Let's fix that, and then let's take the next steps forward, and let's go back and present to the team how we can improve this process and what we've learned from this mistake, like we can make it positive and as leaders, we can help our employees go faster. We can help our dogs learn faster. Can help our kids learn faster by just being a leader and managing mistakes correctly.   Michael Hingson ** 42:06 How do we get that process kind of more into the mainstream of society? How do we get people to recognize that it's okay when you make a mistake, we'll fix it and really give them and teach people to give the positive reinforcement that we need to do. Because I think it's, it's very true. We don't teach it.   Tabatha Jones ** 42:27 We don't teach it. I feel like younger parents that I'm seeing, in some ways, are getting there, you know, I remember back in the day when we would accidentally break something, or, you know, be roughhousing a little, and the glass would get knocked off the counter, and it was a huge thing, right? You're going to clean it up. You're going to go to your room. You're going to stop playing around in the house. And, you know, with my son, I know when He would break something and be like, Hey, let's clean this up. I need you to be more careful. You know, it's not you need to go sit in your room. You made a mistake. It's okay. And I see the difference in myself. Still, when I make a mistake, I beat myself up when he makes a mistake, he cleans it up and moves forward. So it's definitely happening through parenting and the way that we handle it as parents. We have that great opportunity as leaders once adults are full grown and in the workforce and still have those tendencies of fear and oh my gosh, I need to cover it up, teaching them, I had a situation where I made a mistake, shocking. I know I made a mistake, just kidding. I do it all the time, but I had made a mistake with some data that I collected from my team, I'd had individual skip level meetings, and decided kept all the notes in a spreadsheet, and I had told the team as I spoke with them. Whatever you tell me, it's in confidence. I'm taking themes of the conversation and I'll present it back to your leaders. They're not going to have names. We're not going to know who said what. That's not what this is about. It's about me helping drive improvements through my leadership team so that it's better for you. And they were really open, and it was amazing. It was such a gift to have that trust from the team. Well, I went and took my compilations, put all my notes together on a spreadsheet, sent it to my leadership team, and never took off the original notes. And I was like, shoot, now, what do I do? So I asked a peer. I said, Hey, this is what I did. What would you do? And she said, Well, I would tell my leaders, they need to be leaders, and they need to keep it confidential. And I was like, oh, not good enough. I'm not doing that. So I thought about it, yeah. And I said, You know what? This is a teachable moment. This is the opportunity I've been given to practice what I preach. So I pulled my entire team, 50 some odd people on the phone, on a teams call. So we were on camera, and I said, I need to talk to you about something. And I said, I made a mistake, and because of that mistake, I have let you down, and I've broken my word. And I explained what I did. I explained, you know, I got really excited by the information, because I saw things we could do, which then led me to moving way too fast, and I completely sent your comment. Comments with your names to your leaders, and I apologize. And going forward, when I take data and information from you, I will be learning from this mistake. I will keep two separate spreadsheets. I will not be, you know, just adding to the individual spreadsheet, I will quality control, check it before I send it out, and I will make sure that I do better. And I just ask that you forget me. On this one, I got so many texts and emails and instant messages that just said, Thank you so much, and someone that said, thank you, it helps to see that a leader owned up to a mistake, and I'm like, that's that was a teachable moment so nobody died. I didn't lose a heart. I broke a little confidence and a little trust. But we can fix things, and that's how,   Michael Hingson ** 45:46 yeah, and, and that makes a lot of sense, and we, we just tend to, oftentimes do knee jerk reactions. I was sitting here thinking about sometime after we moved to New Jersey in 1996 my wife and I were in our living room, and I don't remember what was going on. We were having a great time, and we each had, each had a glass of champagne, and my fourth guide dog, Lenny, was with us. And Lenny, like any good lab has a tail that never stops. And Karen, I think it was Karen, I don't even remember, sure. I think it was. Had put her glass down on the coffee table, and tail hit glass, glass, which was crystal, went all over floor, hardwood floor, you know, and I can think of so many people who would blame the dog. And actually, I think Lenny blamed herself for a little while, and we kept saying it wasn't your fault we screwed up. And eventually, you know, she well within, within an hour, she was mostly Okay, but, but the bottom line is that she, she, she knew that something happened, but it wasn't her fault, and it is important to own up to to things and and as I said, I think it was Karen, because I think Karen said I should never have put my glass down, or I should have put it back further away from her tail, because she was So excited. You know those   Tabatha Jones ** 47:21 tails, lab tails are crazy things, yeah, oh my gosh, right, but Lenny didn't stop wagging her tail because of that little mistake, right? It's something that Karen was able to own up to. You two were able to clean it up, and then Lenny was able to go on and keep wagging her tail. Everyone's being more careful. Now,   Michael Hingson ** 47:39 what's really funny is that, because it was a hardwood floor and crystal, there were her pieces that we found days later, but   Tabatha Jones ** 47:47 really years later, oh my gosh. But   Michael Hingson ** 47:50 you know what Lenny was? Was, was a cutie, and Lenny was the, probably the most empathetic dog that I've ever had. We had a pastor, and we had who we had come to know, and we were at a party, and she was at this party, and she came up to us and she said, we let Lenny visit everybody, but we just let her loose. Um, Lenny is the most empathetic dog I've ever seen, because you let her loose. And she went to the person who was feeling the most pain first, and then she worked the rest of the room, and we're talking emotional pain, but Lenny could sense that and and she did. She went to the person who was hurting the most for whatever reason. And then after she felt she had done all she could with that person, then she went around to the rest of the room. Oh, what a wonderful experience that was. Yeah, I know, and we hadn't noticed it, but sharee told it to us, and we we realized it from then on, yeah, she's right. I   Tabatha Jones ** 48:52 always think that the companies that allow people to bring their dogs to work are probably the companies that have the highest performance and productivity. I can't prove this yet, but there is something about having a warm, fuzzy little Snuggler with a cold nose right next to you that makes such a difference. Yeah, like I said, you know, mine's by me all the time, but they're just so intuitive. They pick up on your moods. They pick up on what's going on when you've had a bad day, you know, when you're feeling unconfident. I've worked with people a lot on helping them build confidence. And she'll even come around like, Hey, why you down? Like, what's going on? Let's go play. Go play. And then, you know, they're always so excited when you just do the smallest things. It's like, you know what? All right, I am making somebody, somebody happy today. It's just not that, maybe that other person, or whatever it is. But, yeah, oh my gosh. What made   Michael Hingson ** 49:40 you decide? What Madeline just caused you to decide to go from working for other companies in the corporate world to starting your own coaching career full time.   Tabatha Jones ** 49:52 You know, I just love the coaching aspect, helping people who struggle to speak up for themselves or who. Struggle to recognize the value that they bring to the workplace or to the world in general, just really lights my fire. I work mostly with women in their 50s, mostly with women who are already leaders but feel a bit stuck, and help them just remember who they are. Help them remember you know you are a leader. This is how you can set yourself apart, and this is how we can start preparing for your next promotion. I wrote my book promotion ready in three months, the Women's Guide to career advancement, which was released in August. Just because the concerns were so similar, I thought, you know, I'm going to put these specific the specific framework together in a book so that women who maybe don't have time for coaching right now, or they don't have the means, for whatever reason, they can get that framework in this book and get started on setting themselves apart and rebuilding that confidence. And I just love it. I feel like we tend to play really small, especially after a simple mistake or a simple breach of trust or a simple someone said something, and it just really stuck in our head for whatever reason. So I want women to stop. I want them to start feeling more empowered and start going after those things that they want. Because I don't know if you've seen the movie The longest game. But one of the quotes is the, you know, the field isn't the golfing green. The field is the five inches between your ears. And that's life. It is a fact. It is whatever is going on in that space between your ears is what's going to tell you you can and it's going to tell you what you can't do. So we want to only five inches. They say five inches. I haven't actually measured mine either. I say it and I touch it every time, because I'm like, I don't know if it's really five inches. Maybe it's, maybe it's four and a half. I don't know. I've always prided myself on having, you know, a skinny forehead.   Michael Hingson ** 51:57 Well, you know, but, but it's interesting and and, of course, sort of on principle, just for fun. I'll ask, do you ever find that that men read it or that that you coach men as well? Do you find that there are men that will benefit, or choose to benefit from the same things that you're talking about with most women? Absolutely,   Tabatha Jones ** 52:15 I say I work mostly with women and a few lucky men, because there are men who don't feel as confident or who might be a little bit more of that quieter later, and the strategies in there are obvious. Is probably not the right word. But there are things that are really simple and easy to do, but so often overlooked. So for anyone who finds themselves really kind of hiding behind the keyboard, not getting out and about and working on their visibility and relationship building. There are a lot of great strategies for that. The worst thing to do is wait until the promotion opportunity posts to start getting out there and building your brand. It doesn't serve anyone, and it's going to keep you behind. So, yeah, absolutely, that's a great question. If you   Michael Hingson ** 53:05 want to be noticed, then you have to work at what you need to do to be noticed. And that is a an important skill to learn. And it is all about brand, which doesn't mean you're trying to be so calculating that you're trying to do in other people, it is all about doing the things that you need to do, both to learn and to be able to advance in a positive way.   Tabatha Jones ** 53:30 Yeah, exactly. And there are strategies just for even man, even managing your time, because that's so obvious to some of us who have been there, but to others, they'll allow their calendar to be blocked from 7am to 7pm with everyone else's priorities, and it's important to make yourself a priority so that you can start standing out before the job posts. And that's kind of the secret sauce. A lot of people, like I said, they wait until the job posts and they've just been working hard and then can't figure out why they're not getting ahead. So we want to start doing things, taking action every day before that position posts, one   Michael Hingson ** 54:09 of the things that that I do is on my calendar page, I have time blocked out every day and and people will say, Well, I want to schedule something, but this time isn't available, and this is the only time that I can do it. And what I tell people is I have the time blocked out so that I can do the things that I need to do or that I might want to do. And one of them is responding positively to the fact that you need a certain time to meet, and that time is in one of my block times, but I block times so that I have free time to do what needs to be done. So let's schedule it, and, you know, and I, and I find that that works really well, because it gives me the time to make choices and do the things that I want to do. And I think it's so important to be able to do that. So.   Tabatha Jones ** 55:00 Yeah, the calendar is key. I always say your calendar equals clarity equals confidence. I mean, it just it builds that confidence. What I see happen a lot in the corporate space is the calendar gets booked for again, everybody else's priorities, 7am to 7pm I will see someone sitting in a meeting, totally disengaged. And when I would say, What are you doing? And I ask clients now too, so how do you prepare for this meeting? Because almost always the answer is, oh, I have a big meeting coming up in a couple of hours, and I'm not ready yet. Like, well, why are you in this meeting? If that meeting matters so much, why are you here? Because you're hurting your brand here, looking disengaged, asking, Can you repeat that 72 times where you could have just sent a delegate, or you could have blocked that time to think and prepare, which is so important, the calendar blocks. I don't think I could live without them. They're critical, right? That's how we get things done. That's how we make sure we're focused on the right things. That's how I prepare for clients. I don't just get on and wing it, because that's not going to go well, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 56:02 and that's why on, on unstoppable mindset. I asked people to send me some things because I want to appropriately prepare, because if, if I'm doing my job right, I learn all I can to be able to be involved in an intelligent conversation, and people have so many skills that I haven't learned or don't have, I get to use the information that they send to prepare and learn about some of those skills, which is part of why I say if I'm not learning at least as much as anyone else who is listening To the podcast, and I'm not doing my job right? Because it's so much fun to be able to explore and talk with people, and it's and it is so much fun. So I I appreciate exactly what you're saying. Well,   Tabatha Jones ** 56:53 thank you. Yeah, it's, it's a, I mean, tooting my own horn a little bit. It's a great book full of strategy. And if you just took it, take it and start implementing those small changes, you'll see a huge difference. And I say that you'll see it, but not only you, your leader will see and your team will see that you're making changes and and making a difference. So yeah, it's just that calendar is so helpful.   Michael Hingson ** 57:16 Life is is an adventure, as far as I'm concerned. And if we're not always learning we're not doing our job right exactly which is so important? Well, do you have any kind of last thoughts of things that you want people to to think about, as far as leadership or as far as moving forward in the corporate world, or or any of those kinds of things? Yeah,   Tabatha Jones ** 57:40 absolutely. And thank you so much for asking. I do want to tie it back to unstoppable mindset, because you are absolutely unstoppable. It's a matter of clearing those blocks, the things that are in your way, the things that are in that five inches, or whatever it really is between your ears that is getting in the way and telling you you can't do something. And I encourage you if you're struggling, if you want to get ahead, if you've had some bad experiences when trying to get ahead, connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find me at Tabitha Jones and D, H, A Jones, thank you. Yes, all A's, Tabata, Tabatha. You can call me what you want. Just spell it right so you can find me. But absolutely connect with me there, and let's talk about what's going on and see how we can help you start moving forward again. Absolutely, we'll share strategies to give at least a little bit of a boost and kind of start relieving some of the discomfort that may be going on, but kind of back to that point you are completely unstoppable. It's just about investing in yourself, and that may look like time, energy or financially, just to get yourself out of, out of where you're at and into that next thing.   Michael Hingson ** 58:52 What's your website? You must I assume you have a website. I   Tabatha Jones ** 58:55 do have a website. It is empowered. Dash leader.com, and if you go out there, I actually have a free gift. I've recently published an ebook which is a career confidence playbook for women over 50, and that also has some great strategies, as well as workbook and journaling pages to help you really flesh out those goals and start taking those small action steps,   Michael Hingson ** 59:21 and guys, the concepts are the same. So don't think it's just for women. Otherwise, learn nearly as much on this podcast as you   Tabatha Jones ** 59:29 should. That is true. That's very true. The color is a little purple and black. Don't let that send you anywhere. Just it's perfect. Come on in. Let's talk   Michael Hingson ** 59:39 colors. Don't bother me.   59:42 Outstanding.   Michael Hingson ** 59:44 Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been really fun. I knew it was going to be, and it was every bit as fun and and informative as as I thought it would be. So I hope people will reach out to you on LinkedIn and go off and. Uh, go to the website as well. Get your free ebook. I'm going to go get it and and I really think that you've offered a lot of good insights that will be helpful for people. I hope all of you listening and watching out there agree. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please email me. Let me know what you think of our episode today. You can email me at Michael M, I C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S,

Have you or do you feel stress? What is stress and how can we deal with it? Our guest this time is Rachelle Stone who discusses those very questions with us. Rachelle grew up in a very small town in Massachusetts. After attending community college, she had an opportunity to study and work at Disney World in Florida and has never looked back.   Rachelle loved her Disney work and entered the hospitality industry spending much of 27 years working for or running her own destination management company. She will describe how one day after a successful career, at the age of 48, she suffered what today we know as burnout. She didn't know how to describe her feelings at the time, but she will tell us how she eventually discovered what was going on with her.   She began to explore and then study the profession of coaching. Rachelle will tell us about coaches and clients and how what coaches do can help change lives in so many ways.   This episode is full of the kind of thoughts and ideas we all experience as well as insights on how we can move forward when our mindsets are keeping us from moving forward. Rachelle has a down-to-Earth way of explaining what she wants to say that we all can appreciate.       About the Guest:   “As your leadership consultant, I will help you hone your leadership, so you are ready for your next career move. As your executive coach, I will partner with you to overcome challenges and obstacles so you can execute your goals.”     Hi, I'm Rachelle. I spent over 25 years as an entrepreneur and leader in the Special Event industry in Miami, building, flipping, and selling Destination Management Companies (DMCs).  While I loved and thrived in the excitement and chaos of the industry, I still managed to hit a level of burnout that was wholly unexpected and unacceptable to me, resulting in early retirement at 48.   Now, as a trained Leadership Consultant and Executive Coach, I've made it my mission to combine this hard-won wisdom and experience to crack the code on burnout and balance for others so they can continue to thrive in careers they love. I am Brené Brown Dare to Lead ™ trained, a Certified Positive Intelligence ® Mental Fitness coach, and an accredited Professional Certified Coach by the ICF (International Coaching Federation, the most recognized global accreditation body in the coaching industry).   I continue to grow my expertise and show my commitment to the next generation of coaches by serving on the ICF-Central Florida chapter board of directors. I am serving as President-Elect and Chapter Liaison to the global organization. I also support those new to the coaching industry by mentoring other coaches to obtain advanced coaching credentials.   I maintain my well-being by practicing Pilates & Pvolve ® a few days a week, taking daily walks, loving on my Pug, Max, and making time for beach walks when possible.   Ways to connect Rachel:   www.rstoneconsulting.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/rstoneconsulting/ Instagram: @even_wonderwoman_gets_tired   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well, hi and welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity and the unexpected meet. But you know, the more fun thing about it is the unexpected. Unexpected is always a good thing, and unexpected is really anything that doesn't have anything directly to do with inclusion or diversity, which is most of what we get to deal with in the course of the podcast, including with our guest today, Rachelle Stone, who worked in the hospitality industry in a variety of ways during a lot of her life, and then switched to being a coach and a leadership expert. And I am fascinated to learn about that and what what brought her to that? And we'll get to that at some point in the course of the day. But Rachelle, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Thank   Rachelle Stone ** 02:08 you, Michael. I'm honored to be here. Excited to be talking to you today.   Michael Hingson ** 02:12 Well, it's a lot of fun now. You're in Florida. I am. I'm in the Clearwater   Rachelle Stone ** 02:16 Dunedin area. I like to say I live in Dunedin, Florida without the zip code.   Michael Hingson ** 02:22 Yeah. Well, I hear you, you know, then makes it harder to find you that way, right?   Rachelle Stone ** 02:28 Physically. Yeah, right, exactly. Danita, without the zip code, we'll stick with that. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 02:33 yeah, that works. Well, I'm really glad you're here. Why don't we start by maybe you talking to us a little bit about the early Rachelle growing up and some of that stuff.   Rachelle Stone ** 02:43 Yeah, I was lucky. I grew up in rural Western Massachusetts, little po doc town called Greenfield, Massachusetts. We were 18 miles from the Vermont border, which was literally a mile and a half from the New Hampshire border. So I grew up in this very interesting area where it was like a tri state area, and our idea of fun growing up, well, it was, we were always outdoors, playing very much outdoors. I had three siblings, and I was the youngest, and it was one of those childhoods where you came home from school, and mom would say, go outside, don't come back in the house until you hear the whistle. And every house on the street, every mother had a whistle. There were only seven houses because there was a Boy Scout camp at the end of the road. So as the sun was setting and the street lights would come on, you would hear different whistles, and different family kids would be going home the stone kids up, that's your mom. Go home, see you next time that was it was great. And you know, as I got older and more adventurous, it was cow tipping and keg parties and behind and all sorts of things that we probably shouldn't have been doing in our later teen years, but it was fun. Behind   Michael Hingson ** 04:04 is it's four wheeling,   Rachelle Stone ** 04:08 going up rough terrain. We had these. It was very, very hilly, where I was lot of lot of small mountains that you could conquer.   Michael Hingson ** 04:17 So in the winter, does that mean you got to do some fun things, like sledding in the snow. Yeah, yeah.   Rachelle Stone ** 04:24 We had a great hill in the back of our yard, so I learned to ski in my own backyard, and we had three acres of woods, so we would go snowshoeing. We were also close to a private school called Northfield Mount Hermon, which had beautiful, beautiful grounds, and in the winter, we would go cross country skiing there. So again, year round, we were, we were outdoors a lot.   Michael Hingson ** 04:52 Well, my time in Massachusetts was three years living in Winthrop so I was basically East Boston. Yeah. Yes and and very much enjoyed it. Loved the environment. I've been all over Massachusetts in one way or another, so I'm familiar with where you were. I am, and I will admit, although the winters were were cold, that wasn't as much a bother as it was when the snow turned to ice or started to melt, and then that night it froze. That got to be pretty slippery,   05:25 very dangerous, very dangerous.   Michael Hingson ** 05:29 I then experienced it again later, when we lived in New Jersey and and I actually our house to take the dogs out. We had no fenced yards, so I had to take them out on leash, and I would go down to our basement and go out and walk out basement onto a small deck or patio, actually, and then I had to go down a hill to take the dogs where they could go do their business. And I remember the last year we were in New Jersey, it snowed in May, and the snow started to melt the next day, and then that night, it froze, and it and it stayed that way for like about a day and a half. And so it was as slick as glass is. Glass could be. So eventually I couldn't I could go down a hill, it was very dangerous, but going back up a hill to come back in the house was not safe. So eventually, I just used a very long flex leash that was like 20 feet long, and I sent the dogs down the hill. I stayed at the top.   Rachelle Stone ** 06:33 Was smart, wow. And they didn't mind. They just wanted to go do their business, and they wanted to get back in the house too. It's cold, yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 06:41 They didn't seem to be always in an incredible hurry to come back into the house. But they had no problem coming up the hill. That's the the advantage of having claws,   Rachelle Stone ** 06:51 yes. Pause, yeah, four of them to boot, right? Yeah, which   Michael Hingson ** 06:54 really helped a great deal. But, you know, I remember it. I love it. I loved it. Then now I live in in a place in California where we're on what's called the high desert, so it doesn't get as cold, and we get hardly any of the precipitation that even some of the surrounding areas do, from Los Angeles and Long Beach and so on to on the one side, up in the mountains where the Snow is for the ski resorts on the other so Los Angeles can have, or parts of La can have three or four inches of rain, and we might get a half inch.   Rachelle Stone ** 07:28 Wow. So it stays relatively dry. Do you? Do you ever have to deal like down here, we have something called black ice, which we get on the road when it rains after it hasn't rained in a long time? Do you get that there in California,   Michael Hingson ** 07:41 there are places, yeah, not here where I live, because it generally doesn't get cold enough. It can. It's already this well, in 2023 late 2023 we got down to 24 degrees one night, and it can get a little bit colder, but generally we're above freezing. So, no, we don't get the black ice here that other places around us can and do. Got it. Got it. So you had I obviously a fun, what you regard as a fun childhood.   Rachelle Stone ** 08:14 Yeah, I remember the first day I walked into I went to a community college, and I it was a very last minute, impulsive, spontaneous decision. Wow, that kind of plays into the rest of my life too. I make very quick decisions, and I decided I wanted to go to college, and it was open enrollment. I went down to the school, and they asked me, What do you want to study? I'm like, I don't know. I just know I want to have fun. So they said, you might want to explore Recreation and Leisure Services. So that's what I wound up going to school for. And I like to say I have a degree in fun and games.   Michael Hingson ** 08:47 There you go. Yeah. Did you go beyond community college or community college enough?   Rachelle Stone ** 08:53 Yeah, that was so I transferred. It took me four years to get a two year degree. And the reason was, I was working full time, I moved out. I just at 17, I wanted to be on my own, and just moved into an apartment with three other people and went to college and worked. It was a fabulous way to live. It was wonderful. But then when I transferred to the University, I felt like I was a bit bored, because I think the other students were, I was dealing with a lot of students coming in for the first time, where I had already been in school for four years, in college for four years, so the experience wasn't what I was looking for. I wanted the education. And I saw a poster, and it was Mickey Mouse on the poster, and it was Walt Disney World College program now accepting applications. So I wrote down the phone number, email, whatever it was, and and I applied. I got an interview again. Remember Michael? I was really bored. I was going to school. It was my first semester in my four year program, and I just anyway. I got a call back and. And I was accepted into the Disney College Program. So, um, they at that time, they only took about 800 students a year. So it was back in 1989 long time ago. And I was thrilled. I left Massachusetts on january 31 1989 in the blizzard of 89 Yeah, and I drove down to Orlando, Florida, and I never left. I'm still here in Florida. That was the beginning of my entire career. Was applying for the Disney College Program.   Michael Hingson ** 10:36 So what was that like, being there at the Disney College, pro nominal, phenomenal. I have to ask one thing, did you have to go through some sort of operation to get rid of your Massachusetts accent? Does   Rachelle Stone ** 10:50 it sound like it worked? No, I didn't have well, it was funny, because I was hoping I would be cast as Minnie Mouse. I'm four foot 10. I have learned that to be Mini or Mickey Mouse, you have to be four, eight or shorter. So I missed many by two inches. My second choice was being a lifeguard, and I wound up what I they offered me was Epcot parking lot, and I loved it, believe it or not, helping to park cars at Epcot Center. I still remember my spiel to the letter that I used to give because there was a live person on the back of the tram speaking and then another one at the front of the tram driving it to get you from the parking lot to the front entrance of the gate. But the whole experience was amazing. It was I attended classes, I earned my Master's degree. I picked up a second and third job because I wanted to get into hotels, and so I worked one day a week at the Disney Inn, which is now their military resorts. And then I took that third job, was as a contractor for a recreation management company. So I was working in the field that I had my associates in. I was working at a hotel one day a week, just because I wanted to learn about hotels. I thought that was the industry I wanted to go into. And I was I was driving the tram and spieling on the back of the tram five days a week. I loved it was phenomenal.   Michael Hingson ** 12:20 I have a friend who is blind who just retired from, I don't know, 20 or 25 years at Disneyland, working a lot in the reservation centers and and so on. And speaks very highly of, of course, all the experiences of being involved with Disney.   Rachelle Stone ** 12:38 Yeah, it's really, I'm It was a wonderful experience. I think it gave me a great foundation for the work in hospitality that I did following. It was a great i i think it made me a better leader, better hospitality person for it well,   Michael Hingson ** 12:57 and there is an art to doing it. It isn't just something where you can arbitrarily decide, I'm going to be a successful and great hospitality person, and then do it if you don't learn how to relate to people, if you don't learn how to talk to people, and if you're not having fun doing it   Rachelle Stone ** 13:14 exactly. Yes, Fun. Fun is everything. It's   Michael Hingson ** 13:18 sort of like this podcast I love to tell people now that the only hard and fast rule about the podcast is we both have to have fun, or it's not worth doing.   Rachelle Stone ** 13:25 That's right. I'm right there with you. Gotta Have fun,   Michael Hingson ** 13:30 yeah? Well, so you So, how long were you with Disney? What made you switched? Oh, so   Rachelle Stone ** 13:36 Disney College Program. It was, at that time, it was called the Magic Kingdom college program, MK, CP, and it's grown quite significantly. I think they have five or 7000 students from around the world now, but at that time it was just a one semester program. I think for international students, it's a one year program. So when my three and a half months were up. My semester, I could either go back. I was supposed to go back to school back in Massachusetts, but the recreation management company I was working for offered me a full time position, so I wound up staying. I stayed in Orlando for almost three and a half years, and ultimately I wound up moving to South Florida and getting a role, a new role, with a different sort of company called a destination management company. And that was that was really the onset destination management was my career for 27 years. 26   Michael Hingson ** 14:38 years. So what is a destination management company. So   Rachelle Stone ** 14:41 a destination management company is, they are the company that receives a group into a destination, meetings, conventions, events. So for instance, let's say, let's say Fathom note taker. Wants to have an in person meeting, and they're going to hold it at the Lowe's Miami Beach, and they're bringing in 400 of their top clients, and and and sales people and operations people. They need someone on the receiving end to pick everybody up at the airport, to put together the theme parties, provide the private tours and excursions. Do the exciting restaurant, Dine Around the entertainment, the amenities. So I did all the fun. And again, sticking with the fun theme here, yeah, I did all of the auxiliary meeting fun add ons in the destination that what you would do. And I would say I did about 175 to 225, meetings a year.   Michael Hingson ** 15:44 So you didn't actually book the meetings, or go out and solicit to book the meetings. You were the person who took over. Once a meeting was arranged,   Rachelle Stone ** 15:53 once a meeting was booked in the destination, right? If they needed a company like mine, then it would be then I would work with them. If I would be the company. There were several companies I did what I do, especially in Miami, because Miami was a top tier destination, so a client may book the lows Miami Beach and then reach out to two to three different DMCs to learn how can they partner with them to make the meeting the most successful. So it was always a competitive situation. And it was always, you know, needing to do our best and give our best and be creative and out of the box. And, yeah, it was, it was an exciting industry. So what makes   Michael Hingson ** 16:41 the best destination management company, or what makes you very successful? Why would people view you as successful at at what you do, and why they would want to choose you to be the company to work with? Because obviously, as you said, it's competitive.   Rachelle Stone ** 16:59 Everybody well, and there's choice. Everybody has choice. I always believed there was enough business to go around for everybody. Very good friends with some of my my hardiest competitors. Interestingly, you know, although we're competing, it's a very friendly industry. We all network together. We all dance in the same network. You know, if we're going to an industry network, we're all together. What? Why would somebody choose me over somebody else? Was really always a decision. It was sometimes it was creativity. Sometimes it was just a feeling for them. They felt the relationship just felt more authentic. Other times it was they they just really needed a cut and dry service. It just every client was always different. There were never two programs the same. I might have somebody just wanting to book a flamenco guitarist for three hours, and that's all they need. And another group may need. The transportation, the tours, the entertainment, the theme parties, the amenities, the whole ball of Fox, every group was different, which is, I think, what made it so exciting, it's that relationship building, I think, more than anything. Because these companies are doing meetings all over the country, sometimes some of them all over the world. So relationships were really, really important to them to be able to go into a destination and say to their partner in that destination, hey, I'm going to be there next May. This is what I need. Are you available? Can you help? So I think on the initial front end, it is, when it's a competitive bid, you're starting from scratch to build a relationship. Once that's relationship is established, it is easier to build on that relationship when things go wrong. Let's talk about what worked, what didn't, and how we can do better next time, instead of throwing the entire relationship out with the bathwater and starting from scratch again. So it was a great industry. I loved it, and   Michael Hingson ** 19:00 obviously you must have been pretty successful at it.   Rachelle Stone ** 19:04 I was, I was lucky. Well, luck and skill, I have to give myself credit there too. I worked for other DMCs. I worked for event companies that wanted to expand into the DMC industry. And I helped, I helped them build that corporate division, or that DMC division. I owned my own agency for, I think, 14 years, still alive and thriving. And then I worked for angel investors, helping them flip and underperforming. It was actually a franchise. It was an office franchise of a global DMC at the time. So I've had success in different areas of Destination Management, and I was lucky in that I believe in accreditation and certification. That's important to me. Credibility matters. And so I. Involved in the association called the association of Destination Management executives international admei I know it's a mouthful, but I wound up serving on their board of directors and their certification and accreditation board for 14 years, throughout my career, and on the cab their certification accreditation board, my company was one of the first companies in the country to become a certified company, admc certified. I was so proud of that, and I had all of my staff. I paid for all of them to earn their certification, which was a destination management Certified Professional. That's the designation. I loved, that we could be a part of it. And I helped write a course, a university level course, and it was only nine weeks, so half a semester in teaching students what destination management is that took me three years. It was a passion project with a couple of other board members on the cab that we put together, and really glad to be a part of that and contributing to writing the book best practices in destination management, first and second edition. So I feel lucky that I was in this field at a time where it was really growing deeper roots. It had been transport the industry. When I went into it was maybe 20 years young, and when I left it, it been around for 40 plus years. So it's kind of exciting. So you so you   Michael Hingson ** 21:41 said that you started a company and you were with it for 4014 years, or you ran it for 14 years, and you said, it's still around. Are you involved with it at all? Now, I   Rachelle Stone ** 21:51 am not. I did a buyout with the I had two partners at the time. And without going into too much detail, there were some things going on that I felt were I could not align with. I felt it was unethical. I felt it was immoral, and I struggled for a year to make the decision. I spoke to a therapist, and I ultimately consulted an attorney, and I did a buyout, and I walked away from my this was my legacy. This was my baby. I built it from scratch. I was the face of the company. So to give that up my legacy, it was a really tough decision, but it really did come full circle, because late last year, something happened which brought me back to that decision, and I can, with 100% certainty, say it was a values driven decision for me, and I'm so happy I made that decision. So I am today. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 22:57 and, and let's, let's get to that a little bit so you at some point, you said that you had burnout and you left the industry. Why did you do that?   Rachelle Stone ** 23:08 So after I did, sold my my business, I worked for angel investors for about three and a half years. They brought me in. This was an underperforming office that the franchisee, because they had owned it for 10 years, had done a buyout themselves and sold it back to the angel investors or the private equity so they brought me in to run the office and bring it from surviving to thriving again. And it took me about 18 months, and I brought it from under a million to over 5.3 million in 18 months. So it's quite successful. And I had said to the owners, as they're thanking me and rewarding me, and it was a great first two years, I had said to them, please don't expect this again. This was a fluke. People were following me. There was a lot of curiosity in the industry, because this was a really big move for me to sell my company and then go work for this one. It was big news. So it was a great time. But the expectation for me to repeat, rinse and repeat, that kind of productivity was not realistic. It just wasn't realistic. And about a year and a half later, I just, I was driving from the Lowe's Miami Beach. It's funny, because I used that as an example before, to the breakers in Palm Beach. And if you know South Florida at all, it's, it's, you're taking your life in your hands every time you get on 95 it's a nightmare. Anyway, so I'm driving from the lows to the breakers, and I just left a kind of a rough meeting. I don't even remember what it was anymore, because that was back in 2014 and I'm driving to another meeting at the breakers, and I hang up the phone with somebody my. Son calls about something, Mom, this is going on for graduation. Can you be there? And I'm realizing I'm going to be out of town yet again for work, and I'm driving to the breakers, and I'm having this I just had this vision of myself in the middle of 95 slamming the brakes on in my car, coming to a full stop in the middle of the highway. I did not do this this, and I don't recommend you do this. And I opened up my car door, and I literally just walked away from my car. That was the image in my mind. And in that moment, I knew it was time for me to leave. I had gone as high as I could go. I'd done as much as I could do. I'd served on boards, contributed to books, spoken on panels. I wanted to go back to being an entrepreneur. I didn't want to work for angel investors anymore. I wanted to work for myself. I wanted to build something new, and I didn't want to do it in the DMC world. So I went home that night thinking I was going to just resign. Instead, I wrote a letter of retirement, and I retired from the industry, I walked away two and a half weeks later, and I said I was never going to return.   Michael Hingson ** 26:09 And so I burnt out, though at the time, what? What eventually made you realize that it was all burnt out, or a lot of it was burnt out. So I   Rachelle Stone ** 26:17 didn't know anything about burnout at that time. I just knew I was incredibly frustrated. I was bored. I was over in competence, and I just wanted out. Was just done. I had done well enough in my industry that I could take a little time. I had a lot of people asking me to take on consulting projects. So I did. I started doing some consulting in hospitality. And while I was doing that, I was kind of peeling away the layers of the onion, saying, What do I want to do next? I did not want to do DMC. That's all I knew. So I started this exploration, and what came out of it was an interest in exploring the field of coaching. So I did some research. I went to the coachingfederation.org which is the ICF International coaching Federation, is the leading accreditation body for coaches in the world. And through them, I researched Who were some of the accredited schools. I narrowed it down. I finally settled on one, and I said, I'm going to sign up for one course. I just want to see what this coaching is all about. So I signed up for a foundations course with the with the school out of Pennsylvania, and probably about three weeks into the course, the professor said something which was like a light bulb moment for me, and that I realized like, oh my   Speaker 1 ** 27:40 god, I burnt out. And I was literally, at this   Rachelle Stone ** 27:46 time, we're in school, we're on the phone. It was not zoom. We didn't have all this yet. It was you were on the phone, and then you were pulling up documents on your computer so the teacher couldn't see me crying. I was just sobbing, knowing that this is i i was so I was I was stunned. I didn't say anything. I sat on this for a while. In fact, I sat on it. I started researching it, but I didn't tell anybody for two years. It took me two years before I finally admitted to somebody that I had burnt out. I was so ashamed, embarrassed, humiliated, I was this successful, high over achiever. How could I have possibly burnt out?   Michael Hingson ** 28:34 What? What did the teacher say   Rachelle Stone ** 28:37 it was? I don't even remember what it was, but I remember that shock of realization of wellness, of it was, you know what it was that question, is this all? There is a lot of times when we were they were talking about, I believe, what they were talking about, midlife crisis and what really brings them on. And it is that pivotal question, is this really all there is, is this what I'm meant to be doing? And then in their conversation, I don't even remember the full conversation, it was that recognition of that's what's happened to me. And as I started researching it, this isn't now. This is in 2015 as I'm researching it and learning there's not a lot on it. I mean, there's some, mostly people's experiences that are being shared. Then in 2019 the World Health Organization officially, officially recognizes burnout as a phenomenon, an occupational phenomenon.   Michael Hingson ** 29:38 And how would you define burnout? Burnout is,   Rachelle Stone ** 29:43 is generally defined in three areas. It is. It's the the, oh, I always struggle with it. It's that disconnect, the disconnect, or disassociation from. Um, wanting to succeed, from your commitment to the work. It is the knowing, the belief that no one can do it well or right. It is there. There's that. It's an emotional disconnect from from from caring about what you're doing and how you're showing up, and it shows up in your personal life too, which is the horrible thing, because it your it impacts your family so negatively, it's horrible.   Michael Hingson ** 30:39 And it it, it does take a toll. And it takes, did it take any kind of a physical toll on you?   Rachelle Stone ** 30:45 Well, what I didn't realize when I when I took this time, I was about 25 pounds overweight. I was on about 18 different medications, including all my vitamins. I was taking a lot of vitamins at that time too. Um, I chronic sciatica, insomnia. I was self medicating. I was also going out, eating rich dinners and drinking, um, because you're because of the work I was doing. I had to entertain. That was part of that was part of of my job. So as I was looking at myself, Yes, physically, it turns out that this weight gain, the insomnia, the self medication, are also taught signs of of risk of burnout. It's how we manage our stress, and that's really what it comes down to, that we didn't even know. We don't even know. People don't no one teaches us how to process our stress, and that that's really probably one of the biggest things that I've through, everything that I've studied, and then the pandemic hitting it. No one teaches us how to manage our stress. No one tells us that if we process stress, then the tough stuff isn't as hard anymore. It's more manageable. No one teaches us about how to shift our mindsets so we can look at changing our perspective at things, or only seeing things through our lizard brain instead of our curious brain. These are all things that I had no idea were keeping me I didn't know how to do, and that were part of contributing to my burnout. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 32:43 Is stress more self created, or is it? Is it an actual thing? In other words, when, when there is stress in the world? Is it something that, really, you create out of a fear or cause to happen in some way, and in reality, there are ways to not necessarily be stressful, and maybe that's what you're talking about, as far as learning to control it and process it, well,   Rachelle Stone ** 33:09 there's actually there's stresses. Stressors are external. Stress is internal. So a stressor could be the nagging boss. It could be your kid has a fever and you're going to be late for work, or you're going to miss a meeting because you have to take them to the doctor. That's an external stressor, right? So that external stressor goes away, you know, the traffic breaks up, or your your husband takes the kid to the doctor so you can get to your meeting. Whatever that external stress, or is gone, you still have to deal with the stress that's in your body. Your that stress, that stress builds up. It's it's cortisol, and that's what starts with the physical impact. So those physical symptoms that I was telling you about, that I had, that I didn't know, were part of my burnout. It was unprocessed stress. Now at that time, I couldn't even touch my toes. I wasn't doing any sort of exercise for my body. I wasn't and that is one of the best ways you can process stress. Stress actually has to cycle out of your body. No one tells us that. No one teaches us that. So how do you learn how to do that?   Michael Hingson ** 34:21 Well, of course, that's Go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I was gonna   Rachelle Stone ** 34:24 say it's learning. It's being willing to look internally, what's going on in your body. How are you really getting in touch with your emotions and feelings and and processing them well?   Michael Hingson ** 34:37 And you talk about stressors being external, but you have control. You may not have control directly over the stressor happening, but don't you have control over how you decide to deal with the external stress? Creator,   Rachelle Stone ** 34:55 yes, and that external stress will always. Go away. The deadline will come and go. The sun will still rise tomorrow in set tomorrow night. Stressors always go away, but they're also constantly there. So you've got, for instance, the nagging boss is always going to bring you stress. It's how you process the stress inside. You can choose to ignore the stressor, but then you're setting yourself up for maybe not following through on your job, or doing   Michael Hingson ** 35:29 right. And I wouldn't suggest ignoring the stressor, but you it's processing that   Rachelle Stone ** 35:34 stress in your body. It's not so let's say, at the end of the rough day, the stressors gone. You still, whether you choose to go for a walk or you choose to go home and say, Honey, I just need a really like I need a 62nd full on contact, bear hug from you, because I'm holding a lot of stress in my body right now, and I've got to let it out So that physical contact will move stress through your body. This isn't this is they that? You can see this in MRI studies. You see the decrease in the stress. Neuroscience now shows this to be true. You've got to move it through your body. Now before I wanted to kind of give you the formal definition of burnout, it is, it is they call it a occupational phenomenal, okay, it by that they're not calling it a disease. It is not classified as a disease, but it is noted in the International Classification of Diseases, and it has a code now it is they do tie it directly to chronic workplace stress, and this is where I have a problem with the World Health Organization, because when they added this to the International Classification of diseases in 2019 they didn't have COVID. 19 hybrid or work from home environments in mind, and it is totally changed. Stress and burnout are following people around. It's very difficult for them to escape. So besides that, that disconnect that I was talking about, it's really complete exhaustion, depletion of your energy just drained from all of the stressors. And again, it's that reduced efficiency in your work that you're producing because you don't care as much. It's that disconnect so and then the physical symptoms do build up. And burnout isn't like this. It's not an overnight thing. It's a build up, just like gaining 25 pounds, just like getting sick enough that I need a little bit more medication for different issues, that stuff builds up on you and when you when you're recovering from burnout, you didn't get there overnight. You're not going to get out of it overnight either. It's I worked with a personal trainer until I could touch my toes, and then she's pushed me out to go join a gym. But again, it's step by step, and learning to eat healthy, and then ultimately, the third piece that really changed the game for me was learning about the muscles in my brain and getting mentally fit. That was really the third leg of getting my health back.   Michael Hingson ** 38:33 So how does all of that help you deal with stress and the potential of burnout today? Yeah,   Rachelle Stone ** 38:43 more than anything, I know how to prevent it. That is my, my the number one thing I know when I'm sensing a stressor that is impacting me, I can quickly get rid of it. Now, for instance, I'll give you a good example. I was on my the board of directors for my Homeowners Association, and that's always   Michael Hingson ** 39:03 stressful. I've been there, right? Well, I   Rachelle Stone ** 39:06 was up for an hour and a half one night ruminating, and I I realized, because I coach a lot of people around burnout and symptoms, so when I was ruminating, I recognized, oh my gosh, that HOA does not deserve that much oxygen in my brain. And what did I do the next day? I resigned. Resigned, yeah, so removing the stressors so I can process the stress. I process my stress. I always make sure I schedule a beach walk for low tide. I will block my calendar for that so I can make sure I'm there, because that fills my tank. That's self care for me. I make sure I'm exercising, I'm eating good food. I actually worked with a health coach last year because I felt like my eating was getting a little off kilter again. So I just hired a coach for a few months to help me get back on track. Of getting support where I need it. That support circle is really important to maintain and process your stress and prevent burnout.   Michael Hingson ** 40:10 So we've talked a lot about stress and dealing with it and so on. And like to get back to the idea of you went, you explored working with the international coaching Federation, and you went to a school. So what did you then do? What really made you attracted to the idea of coaching, and what do you get out of it?   Rachelle Stone ** 40:35 Oh, great question. Thanks for that. So for me, once I I was in this foundations course, I recognized or realized what had happened to me. I i again, kept my mouth shut, and I just continued with the course. By the end of the course, I really, really enjoyed it, and I saw I decided I wanted to continue on to become a coach. So I just continued in my training. By the end of 2015 early 2016 I was a coach. I went and joined the international coaching Federation, and they offer accreditation. So I wanted to get accredited, because, as I said, from my first industry, a big proponent for credit accreditation. I think it's very important, especially in an unregulated industry like coaching. So we're not bound by HIPAA laws. We are not doctors, we are coaches. It's very different lane, and we do self regulate. So getting accredited is important to me. And I thought my ACC, which my associate a certified coach in 2016 when I moved to the area I'm living in now, in 2017 and I joined the local chapter here, I just continued on. I continued with education. I knew my lane is, is, is burnout. I started to own it. I started to bring it forward a little bit and talk about my experiences with with other coaches and clients to help them through the years and and it felt natural. So with the ICF, I wanted to make sure I stayed in a path that would allow me to hang my shingle proudly, and everything I did in the destination management world I'm now doing in the coaching world. I wound up on the board of directors for our local chapter as a programming director, which was so perfect for me because I'm coming from meetings and events, so as a perfect person to do their programming, and now I am their chapter liaison, and I am President Elect, so I'm taking the same sort of leadership I had in destination management and wrapping my arms around it in the coaching industry,   Michael Hingson ** 42:56 you talk about People honing their leadership skills to help prepare them for a career move or their next career. It isn't always that way, though, right? It isn't always necessarily that they're going to be going to a different career. Yep,   Rachelle Stone ** 43:11 correct. Yeah. I mean, not everybody's looking for trans transition. Some people are looking for that to break through the glass ceiling. I have other clients that are just wanting to maybe move laterally. Others are just trying to figure it out every client is different. While I specialize in hospitality and burnout, I probably have more clients in the leadership lane, Senior VP level, that are trying to figure out their next step, if they want to go higher, or if they're content where they are, and a lot of that comes from that ability to find the right balance for you in between your career and your personal life. I think there comes a point when we're in our younger careers, we are fully identified by what we do. I don't think that's true for upcoming generations, but for our generation, and maybe Jen, maybe some millennials, very identified by what they do, there comes a point in your career, and I'm going to say somewhere between 35 and 50, where you recognize that those two Things need to be separate,   Michael Hingson ** 44:20 and the two things being   Rachelle Stone ** 44:23 your identity, who you are from what you do, got it two different things. And a lot of leaders on their journey get so wrapped up in what they do, they lose who they are.   Michael Hingson ** 44:39 What really makes a good leader,   Rachelle Stone ** 44:42 authenticity. I'm a big proponent of heart based leadership. Brene Brown, I'm Brene Brown trained. I am not a facilitator, but I love her work, and I introduce all my clients to it, especially my newer leaders. I think it's that. Authenticity that you know the command and control leadership no longer works. And I can tell you, I do work with some leaders that are trying to improve their human skills, and by that I mean their emotional intelligence, their social skills, their ability to interact on a human level with others, because when they have that high command and control directive type of leadership, they're not connecting with their people. And we now have five generations in the workforce that all need to be interacted with differently. So command and control is a tough kind of leadership style that I actually unless they're willing to unless they're open to exploring other ways of leading, I won't work with them. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 45:44 and the reality is, I'm not sure command and control as such ever really worked. Yeah, maybe you control people. But did it really get you and the other person and the company? What what you needed.   Rachelle Stone ** 46:01 Generally, that's what we now call a toxic environment. Yes, yes. But that, you know, this has been, we've been on a path of, you know, this work ethic was supposed to, was supposed to become a leisure ethic in the 70s, you know, we went to 40 hour work weeks. Where are we now? We're back up to 6070, hour work week. Yeah, we're trying to lower the age that so kids can start working this is not a leisure ethic that we were headed towards. And now with AI, okay, let's change this conversation. Yeah, toxic environments are not going to work. Moving forward that command and control leadership. There's not a lot of it left, but there's, it's lingering, and some of the old guard, you know, there it's, it's slowly changing.   Michael Hingson ** 46:49 It is, I think, high time that we learn a lot more about the whole concept of teamwork and true, real team building. And there's a lot to be said for there's no I in team, that's right, and it's an extremely important thing to learn. And I think there are way to, still, way too many people who don't recognize that, but it is something that I agree with you. Over time, it's it's starting to evolve to a different world, and the pandemic actually was one, and is one of the things that helps it, because we introduced the hybrid environment, for example, and people are starting to realize that they can still get things done, and they don't necessarily have to do it the way they did before, and they're better off for it.   Rachelle Stone ** 47:38 That's right. Innovation is beautiful. I actually, I mean, as horrible as the pandemic was it, there was a lot of good that came out of it, to your point. And it's interesting, because I've watched this in coaching people. I remember early in the pandemic, I had a new client, and they came to the they came to their first call on Zoom, really slumped down in the chair like I could barely see their nose and up and, you know, as we're kind of talking, getting to know each other. One of the things they said to me, because they were working from home, they were working like 1011, hours a day. Had two kids, a husband, and they also had yet they're, they're, they're like, I one of the things they said to me, which blew my mind, was, I don't have time to put on a load of laundry. They're working from home. Yeah? It's that mindset that you own my time because you're paying me, yeah, versus I'm productive and I'm doing good work for you. Is why you're paying for paying me? Yeah? So it's that perception and trying to shift one person at a time, shifting that perspective   Michael Hingson ** 48:54 you talked before about you're a coach, you're not a doctor, which I absolutely appreciate and understand and in studying coaching and so on, one of the things that I read a great deal about is the whole concept of coaches are not therapists. A therapist provides a decision or a position or a decision, and they are more the one that provides a lot of the answers, because they have the expertise. And a coach is a guide who, if they're doing their job right, leads you to you figuring out the answer. That's   Rachelle Stone ** 49:34 a great way to put it, and it's pretty clear. That's, that's, that's pretty, pretty close the I like to say therapy is a doctor patient relationship. It's hierarchy so and the doctor is diagnosing, it's about repair and recovery, and it's rooted in the past, diagnosing, prescribing, and then the patient following orders and recovering. Hmm, in coaching, it's a peer to peer relationship. So it's, we're co creators, and we're equal. And it's, it's based on future goals only. It's only based on behavior change and future goals. So when I have clients and they dabble backwards, I will that's crossing the line. I can't support you there. I will refer clients to therapy. And actually, what I'm doing right now, I'm taking a mental health literacy course through Harvard Medical Center and McLean University. And the reason I'm doing this is because so many of my clients, I would say 80% of my clients are also in therapy, and it's very common. We have a lot of mental health issues in the world right now as a result of the pandemic, and we have a lot of awareness coming forward. So I want to make sure I'm doing the best for my clients in recognizing when they're at need or at risk and being able to properly refer them.   Michael Hingson ** 51:04 Do you think, though, that even in a doctor patient relationship, that more doctors are recognizing that they accomplish more when they create more of a teaming environment? Yes,   51:18 oh, I'm so glad you   Rachelle Stone ** 51:20 brought that up, okay, go ahead. Go ahead. Love that. I have clients who are in therapy, and I ask them to ask their therapist so that if they're comfortable with this trio. And it works beautifully. Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 51:36 it is. It just seems to me that, again, there's so much more to be said for the whole concept of teaming and teamwork, and patients do better when doctors or therapists and so on explain and bring them into the process, which almost makes them not a coach as you are, but an adjunct to what you do, which is what I think it's all about. Or are we the adjunct to what they do? Or use the adjunct to what they do? Yeah, it's a team, which is what it should be.   52:11 Yeah, it's, I always it's like the Oreo cookie, right?   Michael Hingson ** 52:16 Yeah, and the frosting is in the middle, yeah, crying   Rachelle Stone ** 52:19 in the middle. But it's true, like a therapist can work both in the past and in the future, but that partnership and that team mentality and supporting a client, it helps them move faster and further in their in their desired goals. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 52:37 it's beautiful, yeah, yeah. And I think it's extremely important, tell me about this whole idea of mental fitness. I know you're studying that. Tell me more about that. Is it real? Is it okay? Or what? You know, a lot of people talk about it and they say it's who cares. They all roll   Rachelle Stone ** 52:56 their eyes mental fitness. What are you talking about? Yeah, um, I like to say mental fitness is the third leg of our is what keeps us healthy. I like to look at humans as a three legged stool, and that mental fitness, that mental wellness, is that third piece. So you have your spiritual and community wellness, you have your physical wellness, and then you have your mental wellness. And that mental wellness encompasses your mental health, your mental fitness. Now, mental fitness, by definition, is your ability to respond to life's challenges from a positive rather than a negative mindset. And there's a new science out there called positive it was actually not a new science. It's based on four sciences, Positive Intelligence, it's a cognitive behavioral science, or psychology, positive psychology, performance psychology, and drawing a bank anyway, four sciences and this body of work determined that there's actually a tipping point we live in our amygdala, mostly, and there's a reason, when we were cavemen, we needed to know what was coming that outside stressor was going to eat us, or if we could eat it. Yeah, but we have language now. We don't need that, not as much as we did, not in the same way, not in the same way, exactly. We do need to be aware of threats, but not every piece of information that comes into the brain. When that information comes in our brains, amplify it by a factor of three to one. So with that amplification, it makes that little, little tiny Ember into a burning, raging fire in our brain. And then we get stuck in stress. So it's recognizing, and there's actually you are building. If you do yoga, meditation, tai chi, gratitude journaling, any sort of those practices, you're flexing that muscle. You talk to somebody who does gratitude journaling who just started a month in, they're going to tell. You, they're happier. They're going to tell you they're not having as many ruminating thoughts, and they're going to say, I'm I'm smiling more. I started a new journal this year, and I said, I'm singing more. I'm singing songs that I haven't thought of in years. Yeah, out of the blue, popping into my head. Yeah. And I'm happier. So the the concept of mental fitness is really practicing flexing this muscle every day. We take care of our bodies by eating good food, we exercise or walk. We do that to take care of our physical body. We do nothing to take care of our brain other than scroll social media and get anxiety because everybody's life looks so perfect,   Michael Hingson ** 55:38 yeah, and all we're doing is using social media as a stressor.   Rachelle Stone ** 55:42 That's right, I'm actually not on social media on LinkedIn. That's it.   Michael Hingson ** 55:48 I have accounts, but I don't go to it exactly. My excuse is it takes way too long with a screen reader, and I don't have the time to do it. I don't mind posting occasionally, but I just don't see the need to be on social media for hours every day.   Rachelle Stone ** 56:05 No, no, I do, like, like a lot of businesses, especially local small businesses, are they advertise. They only have they don't have websites. They're only on Facebook. So I do need to go to social media for things like that. But the most part, no, I'm not there. Not at all. It's   Michael Hingson ** 56:20 it's way too much work. I am amazed sometimes when I'll post something, and I'm amazed at how quickly sometimes people respond. And I'm wondering to myself, how do you have the time to just be there to see this? It can't all be coincidence. You've got to be constantly on active social media to see it. Yeah,   Rachelle Stone ** 56:39 yeah, yeah. Which is and this, this whole concept of mental fitness is really about building a practice, a habit. It's a new habit, just like going to the gym, and it's so important for all of us. We are our behaviors are based on how we interpret these messages as they come in, yeah, so learning to reframe or recognize the message and give a different answer is imperative in order to have better communication, to be more productive and and less chaos. How   Michael Hingson ** 57:12 do we teach people to recognize that they have a whole lot more control over fear than they think they do, and that that really fear can be a very positive guide in our lives. And I say that because I talked about not being afraid of escaping from the World Trade Center over a 22 year period, what I realized I never did was to teach people how to do that. And so now I wrote a book that will be out later in the year. It's called Live like a guide dog, stories of from a blind man and his dogs, about being brave, overcoming adversity and walking in faith. And the point of it is to say that you can control your fear. I'm not saying don't be afraid, but you have control over how you let that fear affect you and what you deal with and how you deal it's all choice. It is all choice. But how do we teach people to to deal with that better, rather than just letting fear build up   Rachelle Stone ** 58:12 it? Michael, I think these conversations are so important. Number one is that learner's mind, that willingness, that openness to be interested in finding a better way to live. I always say that's a really hard way to live when you're living in fear. Yeah, so step number one is an openness, or a willingness or a curiosity about wanting to live life better,   Michael Hingson ** 58:40 and we have to instill that in people and get them to realize that they all that we all have the ability to be more curious if we choose to do it.   Rachelle Stone ** 58:49 But again, choice and that, that's the big thing so many and then there's also, you know, Michael, I can't wait to read your book. I'm looking forward to this. I'm also know that you speak. I can't wait to see you speak. The thing is, when we speak or write and share this information, we give them insight. It's what they do with it that matters, which is why, when I with the whole with the mental fitness training that I do, it's seven weeks, yeah, I want them to start to build that habit, and I give them three extra months so they can continue to work on that habit, because it's that important for them to start. It's foundational your spirit. When you talk about your experience in the World Trade Center, and you say you weren't fearful, your spiritual practice is such a big part of that, and that's part of mental fitness too. That's on that layers on top of your ability to flex those mental muscles and lean into your spirituality and not be afraid.   Michael Hingson ** 59:55 Well, I'd love to come down and speak. If you know anybody that needs a speaker down there. I. I'm always looking for speaking opportunities, so love your help, and   1:00:03 my ears open for sure and live like   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:06 a guide dog. Will be out later this year. It's, it's, I've already gotten a couple of Google Alerts. The the publisher has been putting out some things, which is great. So we're really excited about it.   Rachelle Stone ** 1:00:16 Wonderful. I can't wait to see it. So what's   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:19 up for you in 2024   Rachelle Stone ** 1:00:22 so I actually have a couple of things coming up this year that are pretty big. I have a partner. Her name's vimari Roman. She's down in Miami, and I'm up here in the Dunedin Clearwater area. But we're both hospitality professionals that went into coaching, and we're both professional certified coaches, and we're both certified mental fitness coaches. When the pandemic hit, she's also a Career Strategist. She went she started coaching at conferences because the hospitality industry was hit so hard, she reached out to me and brought me in too. So in 2024 we've been coaching at so many conferences, we can't do it. We can't do it. It's just too much, but we also know that we can provide a great service. So we've started a new company. It's called coaches for conferences, and it's going to be like a I'll call it a clearing house for securing pro bono coaches for your conferences. So that means, let's say you're having a conference in in LA and they'd like to offer coaching, pro bono coaching to their attendees as an added value. I'll we'll make the arrangements for the coaches, local in your area to to come coach. You just have to provide them with a room and food and beverage and a place to coach on your conference floor and a breakout. So we're excited for that that's getting ready to launch. And I think 2024 is going to be the year for me to dip my toe in start writing my own story. I think it's time   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:02 writing a book. You can say it. I'm gonna do it.   Rachelle Stone ** 1:02:05 I'm gonna write a book Good. I've said it out loud. I've started to pull together some thoughts around I mean, I've been thinking about it for years. But yeah, if the timing feels right,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:21 then it probably is, yep, which makes sense. Well, this has been fun. It's been wonderful. Can you believe we've already been at this for more than an hour? So clearly we   1:02:33 this went so fast. Clearly we   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:35 did have fun. We followed the rule, this was fun. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening and for watching, if you're on YouTube watching, and all I can ask is that, wherever you are, please give us a five star rating for the podcast. We appreciate it. And anything that you want to say, we would love it. And I would appreciate you feeling free to email me and let me know your thoughts. You can reach me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, would love to hear from you. You can also go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and it's m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, N, and as I said to Rochelle just a minute ago, if any of you need a speaker, we'd love to talk with you about that. You can also email me at speaker@michaelhingson.com love to hear from you and love to talk about speaking. So however you you reach out and for whatever reason, love to hear from you, and for all of you and Rochelle, you, if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, let us know we're always looking for people who want to come on the podcast. Doesn't cost anything other than your time and putting up with me for a while, but we appreciate it, and hope that you'll decide to to introduce us to other people. So with that, I again want to say, Rochelle, thank you to you. We really appreciate you being here and taking the time to chat with us today.   Rachelle Stone ** 1:04:13 It's been the fastest hour of my life. I'm gonna have to watch the replay. Thank you so much for having me. It's been my pleasure to join you.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:24 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

This time we get to meet Jocelyn Sandstrom, my first podcast guest from Hawaii. Jocelyn was born and raised in Hawaii. Tt the urging of her mother, she took her first modeling job when she was sixteen. As she tells the story, she grew up quiet and pretty shy and she didn't have a great deal of confidence in herself. After high school, modeling became her full-time career. She says that the urging and support of her mother caused her to make some of the best decisions in her life. Modeling, she tells us, brought her out of herself. She traveled to 12 countries over a 20-year modeling career. She loved every minute of the experience.   In 2003 she began thinking that she wanted to help others deal with their confidence and career issues. By 2010 she decided that she was experiencing burnout as a model and changed to a coaching career that, in part, helped others to recognize burnout and deal with it. Jocelyn provides us with some good life pointers and lessons to help us change our mindset from the usual negative “I have to do this” to a more positive view “I get to do this”. I leave it to her to tell more.   Jocelyn does offer many insights I am sure you will appreciate. Over her 15-year coaching career she has become certified in several disciplines, and she uses them to teach her clients how to shift their careers to more positive and strong efforts going forward.       About the Guest:   Growing up in Hawaii, Jocelyn has lived and worked in 12 different countries. This experience has allowed her to realize that even though we may speak different languages or have different traditions, at our core, we are all the same. She has used this knowledge to help and support clients around the world in creating next-level success not just in their careers but in their personal lives as well.    Since 2010, she has been providing Quantum Energy Sessions and teaching Neuro-Linguistic Programming, Neurological Re-patterning, and the Millennium Method to clients globally. In 2022, she founded Wellness and Metaphysical, a community-driven platform that promotes a higher level of consciousness through expos and retreats.   Jocelyn's mindset and energy work have propelled her career, allowing her to work with leading global luxury brands like Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Fendi, Cartier, Tiffany & Co., Christian Louboutin, and Yves Saint Laurent, among others. She has been featured on the covers of Elle, Marie Claire, Esquire, Harper's Bazaar, and more. Alongside her husband, she has hosted two travel shows and appeared in various feature and short films. After creating a career beyond her wildest dreams through quantum manifestations, her passion is to now help others do the same, whether it's business, health, relationships, or any aspect of life.   Jocelyn specializes in helping clients release deep-rooted issues from their past that are holding them back. She supports clients in building not just success but also fulfillment at the same time because success without fulfillment is empty, leading to burnout and anxiety. She supports her clients to discover their authentic truth and share that with the world, magnetizing their energy to start attracting people and opportunities out of the blue, enabling them to fall in love with themselves and their life while creating more success than ever before!   Jocelyn is a certified:   Neuro-Linguistic Programing Advanced Practitioner + Teacher Neurological Re-patterning Practitioner + Teacher Ericksonian Hypnosis Practitioner + Teacher Millennium Method™ Practitioner + Teacher Yuen Method™ Practitioner Reiki Practitioner.   Ways to connect Jocelyn:   Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jocelynlukosandstrom/?hl=en Facebook https://www.facebook.com/jocelyn.lukosandstrom/ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelyn-luko-sandstrom-4789882a/  Website www.jocelynsandstrom.com   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 01:56 Thank you so much, and I do hope you come back again. It's such an honor to be on your podcast. Well, it's   Michael Hingson ** 02:02 been a while. It's only been 15 years since I've been there, and it is time to come back, but my wife passed away, and so it's kind of not nearly as fun to come alone, unless, unless I come and people keep me busy over there, but we'll figure it out.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 02:17 Yes, I'm so sorry about your wife, and if you want, I will show you around here.   Michael Hingson ** 02:24 Well, we'll have to make something happen. We'll just, we'll just do it. Yes, but I'm really glad that you're here. Um, Jocelyn is an interesting individual, and by any standard, she is a we're a neurological repatterning practitioner plus teacher. She has a lot of things. She does neuro linguistics. She is also a Reiki Master and practitioner, and just a number of things, and we're going to get to all of that, but I want to, again, welcome you and really glad that you're taking the time to be with us instead of being with clients, with all the things that you do.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 03:11 Thank you so much for your time. I love your podcast and everything, all the messages that you're bringing out onto the world.   Michael Hingson ** 03:17 Well, thank you. It has been a lot of fun to be able to do it and continue to do it, and we're having a lot of fun doing it, so I can't complain a whole lot about that. It's just a lot of fun. And I as I tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as everybody else, then I'm not doing my job right. So I'm really glad that I get to learn so much from from people as well. Well, why don't we start, as I love to do, with learning about the early Jocelyn, growing up and all that sort of stuff.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 03:49 Well, I did grow up in Hawaii, and I, like every a lot of people, we went through a lot of growing pains. I had a lot that I did grow through, and it wasn't until I started my first contract overseas when I was 16 that life shifted for me, and I started to find my people and started to come into my own, get you know, transcending above the bullying and everything that happened in childhood. And then I lived overseas for about 20 years and moved home in 2016 to be with my family again.   Michael Hingson ** 04:29 So where did you live for those 20 years? I lived in   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 04:31 12 different countries around the world. Um, I absolutely for me, it was I just loved exploring different cultures. It wasn't like going on vacation, to me, is amazing, but going to a place, living there, working with the people, learning the culture, learning the different ways that they work in, you know, speaking like the languages I only you know, spoke a very little bit of each language, just like taxi language, right? Um. And then just immersing into the culture, just the food tastes different in every place as well. Like it could be the same thing, but it just tastes different. Life is so different. And for me, that was my passion, really, to just immerse into different cultures, different parts of the world, different parts of me as well. Because every time I went to another country, I became a different person. There was another side of me that got ignited that I didn't even know was there. And so I got to not only discover myself, but I got to discover the world.   Michael Hingson ** 05:30 What made you go to so many different countries? What started all that?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 05:35 Well, I was modeling so I was able to do contracts in different countries. And so whenever I wanted to go to their country, I just contacted an agency there, and I got a contract and went and so basically, the world was my oyster. And I just said, Where do I desire to go next? And then Khan reached out. Instead of waiting for someone to come to me, I reached out to that, you know, to agencies over there and got a contract and went over. So I've never, once I started that. I've never been one to sit around and wait for things to kind of come to me. It's always been this is what I desire. So now let me go and create that to happen. And that's how I created my last career to be so successful. And there's so many things that I learned along the way that not only can you use that, but also to do it in a way that doesn't burn you out. And so that's my passion now, is to help people to build success and fulfillment, not just the success. Because I had burnt out pretty bad, and I in hindsight, if I had done it differently, I probably could have built it even bigger without the burnout. And so that's my passion now, and that's how I built this career, is through that fulfillment and success at the same time, so that it's so fulfilling, as well as creating next level results.   Michael Hingson ** 06:59 Did you go to college? Or did you go from high school into modeling?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 07:03 I went straight in. What   Michael Hingson ** 07:06 started you with that? My   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 07:08 mom, of course, it's always your mom, right? Of course, because I was very shy, and like I said, I went through a lot growing up, through bullying and all of this. So for me, it was like the best blessing that's ever happened. For me, I was very scared, but I knew that I wanted to explore and try, and it brought me out of my shell. It brought me to my people. It was the first time that, you know, people like, wanted to hear what I had to say, really, like, they were fascinated. And I was like, what, you know, and again, again, what I realized, now after all this time, is I had a perception growing up here in Hawaii, so necessarily, I've been finding out that not people did not have that same perception that I had about myself. I realized I was almost the one that was not coming out of my shell fully, and therefore it was hard to connect, I think, and people have a different perception of me. So looking back on my childhood now, when I say bullying, yes, there was bullying and there was, you know, but overall, there were also things that I perceived in a way that wasn't necessarily true for other people, because I would run into them and they'd remember me, and they'd have remember a different version of me, and I'd be like, it's, you know? And so I realize now how much I actually also held my back, held myself back, and, yeah, well,   Michael Hingson ** 08:39 did that affect your modeling career, because I would think as a model, you'd have to be reasonably outgoing and be able to work in a variety of different kinds of situations.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 08:49 I think it was what helped me to be resilient growing up through the hardships of what I went through, you know, with relationships and everything. That's what got me to be resilient, to stick it out. Because not everybody does stick it out. Because there is a ton of rejection, there is a ton there is a ton of things that you're going through at a very young age. My first contract was when I was 16 in high school during the summer, and so to be able to handle obviously, you know, there's a lot of not so nice things in the industry as well, too. So to be able to handle that, I think that came from everything that I grew through as a child, as well as my mom's support, because she was the one, the one thing that was stable throughout my life, where I would always call her, because I was living in so many different countries, I think you know, she was my best friend, and so that, and living in all those different countries helping me to be so resilient, is what Korea helped me to create this business to be so success, successful as well,   Michael Hingson ** 09:55 what some of the countries that you stayed in went to, well, some. Of   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 10:00 my favorite I started in Tokyo, and then I went to Korea, Sydney, Milan, Hamburg, London. I did live in New York for a little while, Taiwan, China, you know, like, there's so many different places. Like, some of my favorites definitely were Tokyo, because that was and Hong Kong was where I spent most of my time at the end. And I, of course, loved Milan and Sydney as well as London as well too. And of course, New York is just Memphis.   Michael Hingson ** 10:33 I enjoy Tokyo. I've been to Japan twice, not for long periods. Well, the second time, actually, I guess the third time I've been there three times, and the last time was when we did work with the Japanese publisher of my first book, Thunder dog. And we were there for almost two weeks. It was a lot of fun, but mostly I spent time around Tokyo until thunder dog, and then we were all over Japan. But it was very enjoyable. What I really remember the first time I went to Japan. We were over there about four days, I tried to eat very healthy, um, although I had ice cream with every meal, because they insisted, and all that, when I came back, I had lost my pal. I can't believe it. Wow. I know that didn't happen the second and third time, but I didn't gain weight either, so it's okay, but I really enjoyed Japan. I've been to Korea. Enjoyed that as well. Not been to Australia. I'm still want to go. I've been to New Zealand, but not Australia. Yeah.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 11:36 Australia is an amazing place, the people, the food, just the lifestyle,   Michael Hingson ** 11:43 yeah, yeah. And it is, of course, so different because it's on the other side of the equator. So right now they're getting into their summer season.   Speaker 1 ** 11:52 Yes, yes, absolutely. So it's pretty   Michael Hingson ** 11:55 cool. Was your mama model? Is that what got you guys to get you into it or No, no, she just, she just thought it was good for you,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 12:04 huh? Yeah, exactly. And thank goodness she did, because, honestly, it was the thing that got me out of my shell. It like for me to go and live in Tokyo when I was 16 during the summer. It showed me that high school wasn't everything, because I was so consumed by, you know, school kids and the cool kids and not being cool and all of those things. And when I went over there, I realized, wow, there is a whole other world outside of this. And it completely changed my life. And so when I came back, I didn't relate to everybody in the same way. I wasn't so consumed with everything, because I knew what was waiting for me. I knew that there was so much more to explore and to experience. So it really was the thing that completely changed my life, and I will always be grateful for that on how it allowed me to grow and through the years, I grew through that. Like each contract I did, I grew, I stretched myself, each country that I went to, where I didn't know anybody except for the agency, and lived, you know, with new people, and had a map that they would give you, and you'd have to go and find your castings on your own, before we had Google Maps, using a paper map, and just, you know, walking down the street and looking for the places like it just stretched me in so many beautiful ways. And I wish everyone could go through that experience. Because when you put yourself into places where you stretch, you just you access the strength that's actually within you. It's just compounding your resilience and your power and your knowing within yourself, and that's what makes you unstoppable. When you know you can do all those things and you've done all those things, the next step is that much easier because you've already done it.   Michael Hingson ** 13:56 Yeah, um, there's so many ways of stretching and growing. I was just reading an email from someone I'm the vice president on the board of directors of the Colorado Center for the Blind, which is a training center that teaches newly blinded people or people who are losing their eyesight, teaching them blindness techniques and teaching them that blindness isn't the problem. It's really our attitudes about it. And one of the things, if you go to the center and take advantage of the full residential program, one of the last things that you have to do is you are dropped off somewhere within some sort of walking distance of the agency itself. But that could be a couple miles Well, it may not even be just a couple miles away. It may be that you're further, but you have to figure out where you are and get back to the center. And you can only ask one question of the public, so it's all about you learning to use your wit, your wits, and people do it all the time, right? Awesome, and it's so cool me, and so I really relate very much to what you're talking about, as far as how you learned to stretch and grow with all the modeling and being in all those foreign countries and having to learn to live there.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 15:13 Yeah, that's so powerful. That's so amazing. What you're what you've done, and your story is so inspiring and so powerful.   Michael Hingson ** 15:21 Well, I I never did go to that center, and so I never actually, directly was subjected to that. However, with all the traveling that I've done around the world, I've had to essentially do the same thing, so I know what you're talking about, and it's so exhilarating when you figure it out, right? Yes,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 15:41 it is, and and that's why we're here. We're here to experience all those things, because if not, it would just be so boring. And so one of the things that I always, you know, remind myself and my clients, is that, you know, we may be in a place that's crunchy and doesn't feel great, but we're growing through it. And when we do grow through it, the feeling of getting on the other side is what why we why we do it. And once we get to the other side, or let's say you're climbing a mountain, and you get to the top of the mountain, you don't want to just sit at the top of the mountain. You want to climb another mountain, because it's the journey. That's the thing that we enjoy. And so when we embrace the journey, not only do we get to where we desire to go, to feel that feeling of like accomplishment, but also we get to enjoy the journey instead of just trying to rush through it to get there.   Michael Hingson ** 16:38 I somewhere in my life, probably when I was fairly young, decided, although I didn't articulate it for a while, but decided that life is an adventure, and wherever we go, we can find very positive things. And I have never found a place that I hated, that I didn't like to go to. I've been all over this country and and I have eaten some some pretty unhealthy food in places, very deep fried kinds of things and so on. But I've also found ways to enjoy some of it, although I tried to eat as little of the bad food, if you will, that's high in cholesterol and so on. I've tried to eat as little of that as possible. But I've enjoyed everywhere I have been. I've been been to all 50 states, had a lot of fun in every place where I've been, and wouldn't trade any of those experiences for anything, much less traveling to a variety of other countries. Mm hmm, so it's a lot of fun to, you know, to do, but life is an adventure, and we should approach it that way. Mm   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 17:40 hmm, yeah, absolutely. And when we do approach it that way, we enjoy it so much more, because I used to always avoid making a mistake or things going wrong or get so frustrated that it wasn't wrong or that it wasn't going well. But now I I lean into those things, and it's those things that make life interesting. It's those things like the mistakes that I make, I grow more from those mistakes than from anything else. And through the hardships that I've been through, I've grown so much from those as well, too. And so when we lean into the journey and just know that there is no good, bad, right, wrong, it's just the experience of what it is. We live in a completely different way, and we can like I was telling my clients in one of the webinars I was running the other day that my husband and I had read the book celestian prophecy. And so he goes on a journey, and he doesn't plan anything. He just shows up and he listens to, you know, synchronicities, and he kind of goes with that. And so when we went to Jordan, we did the same thing. We're like, you know what, let's just go play. Let's go play and have no plan, and just arrive and discover what we're gonna do. And so we did that. And then we ended up, you know, meeting this one tour company, and ended up booking them, but it ended up turning out that they weren't the best, and we kind of got ripped off. But the driver that they hired was amazing, and he gave us like these special tours and things because he felt bad that we did get ripped off. And so the thing that looked like it was something bad actually was a blessing, and ended up turning out into this most incredible trip. And so when we make these so called wrong decisions, and we realize that it's not wrong, that it's leading us to something better, we don't have to get upset about it, like we weren't upset that that happened. We were just on the journey and the adventure of it, and that actually turned out to be one of our most incredible trips.   Michael Hingson ** 19:38 One of the things that I have learned and talked about on this podcast occasionally is that there's no such thing as failure their learning experiences. And I like what you just said, because it isn't that they're something that goes wrong. It happened the way it did. And the question is, what did we learn from it? And I'll bet that that driver. I would never have done those special things for you if you had treated him differently and treated him in a in a negative way.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 20:08 Mm, hmm, yeah, if we were grumpy and angry, he would have said, Okay, well, too bad for you guys. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 20:15 yeah, forget you guys. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Well. You modeled for you said 20 years, right? Yes. And what made you decided that you wanted to give that up.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 20:29 So I actually started doing wellness in 2003 when my mom got sick, and that's when my whole world shifted. That's when I wanted to find a natural way to help her, to support her, and that's how I started doing neurological repatterning, neuro linguistic programming and Ericksonian hypnosis. Then I went into quantum physics based energy work, and was able to help her and the at the same time, I was working on my career and both her getting, you know, her recovering and getting stronger, and my career taking off, I thought, oh my gosh, like I want to help people do this. I don't want to just use it for myself. I want to help other people do this. So I actually started while I was still modeling, simultaneously teaching and doing sessions for clients, since 2010 and so I've been doing this since then, and now it's, I just want to do it full time. It's just, it's just so fulfilling to be able to support clients through shifts, to create things beyond their wildest dreams, to open up the ease and the flow, to remove the burnout to, you know, to know that anything is possible and that we create our reality, we get to create we, you know, like we're creating an abundance of things every single moment of every single day based on our thoughts. And so we can create an abundance of lack, or we can create an abundance of, you know, happiness and and it's really just not letting anything take our power. So one of the things that shifted in my life as well, too, was when I was able to not let anything ruin my day, not let anyone or anything ruin my day, not that things that weren't going my way ruin my day. I was just gonna say, Okay, well, this is going on. It's happening for me. So now what do I get to do with this? How do I get to transmute this? How do I turn it into something good, or turn it into my superpower? By practicing neutrality, practicing not reacting and creating more fallout that needs to happen. And so whenever things don't go my way. I don't get frustrated about it anymore. I know that it's an opportunity, opportunity for me to practice a new way of being or new way of thinking. And there was one day where everything was just going so wrong, like from the beginning, like big things too, and I didn't let it take my happiness away, and I didn't let myself get down by it. I was like, Well, what can I do instead? How can I transmute this? How can I like when I missed my yoga class, and I'm like, I'm just gonna go home and I'm gonna do it by myself. Nothing is gonna stop me. This is what I desire to do. And that was my, like, favorite day ever. I felt amazing. I got home after the day of all the things that didn't work out, like almost losing a $2,500 camera lens, and by the end of the day, just feeling so good about it. And my son was saying to me, Okay, I'm gonna go check the mailbox. And he went to go check the mailbox. And at the end of the day, after me not letting anything take my freedom. An electric bill came and we opened it up, but it wasn't a bill. It was a refund for $7,200 for some PV panels that we had purchased that we didn't know we were going to be getting a rebate for. And it just showed me that nothing can take my joy, and because of that, I'm not going to slow down the good things that are on their way to me, either. And so it just opens it up. And from that point on there I don't have bad days. I transmute them,   Michael Hingson ** 24:10 yeah? Which? Which is what we all can do, yeah. So how do you transmute them? Though? What? How do you really do that?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 24:19 Well, the one thing that really helps me is realizing that everything is happening for me, everything like everything is happening for me, to help me to learn, to help me to grow, to help me to create my next level of success. And if I look at it that way, I'm not the victim. But if I look at it as the victim like it's happening to me, I have no power. I've given my power to the situation, but if I know that it's happening for me and that I'm unstoppable and I'm resilient and I'm always going to find a way, because I'm never going to give up. So for instance, with that camera lens, I ordered a camera lens that Best Buy was meant to ship me, and I called them because it was a. A week. And they said, Oh, it looks like you actually picked it up from the store. So no one shipping you anything. You got the product already. And I said, No, I didn't there. It was out of stock, and the person that I bought it from ordered it to be shipped to my house. And they said, well, there's nothing we can do on my end. On their end, I have to go to the shop, find the person who sold it to me and talked to them, and so the old me would have reacted, freaked out, created all this necessary Fallout, gone in angry, but now I was like, You know what? It's going to work out. Somehow it's going to work out. I don't know how it's going to work out, but the more calm and neutral I am, the more that I just let it flow, instead of react to this. Somehow it's just going to work out. And if it doesn't, it's just money. Like, it's not my life, it's not the end of the world, it's just money, and I can make more money. And so when I approached it that way, and I went in to talk to them, I wasn't guns blazing, I wasn't, you know, angry, I just came in and I was like, hey, you know, this is a situation. I was wondering if you could help me. And somehow, magically, they were just like, oh yeah, no problem. I can see it. There's an issue, and we'll send you a new one. And then it arrived in a couple days. And so a lot of times it's our reaction that causes the issues. But if you know, sorry, no, go ahead. I was just going to say, if we know that, it's going to work out somehow, because we're never going to give up, nothing is going to break us. Then somehow, magically, it always does.   Michael Hingson ** 26:25 Did they or you have to figure out exactly what really did happen?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 26:31 Nope. And to me, it doesn't really matter, because as long as it works out, I'm just, I'm always taking the next step. I'm always, if something, you know, like I in the beginning, I would launch programs and no one would show up, and it wouldn't matter, I would just keep launching. Or, you know, I heard this one story that completely inspired me about Anthony Robbins, when he first started doing his programs, and he sold his first program out, he rented the the call for it, and not one person bought but it didn't stop him. He said to his four friends, Hey, can I pay you with pizza and soda so that you could sit here for four days so I could teach you my program? Because he knew where he was going, nothing was going to stop him. And so I do the same thing, like I sold a master class here in Hawaii, and most of my networks online. And so one person had showed up, signed up, and I was like, Okay, so maybe do I cancel this? But I just really felt like there was something that was going to happen. If I just teach it, it's going to stretch me, it's going to do something. I just kept showing up and selling it every single day, trying different ways of selling it, not out of scarcity, but out of okay, well, this is the universe or something giving me an opportunity to play, to practice, selling, to have fun with it. And so I did. And you know, the day of, there was still only two people that were going to be there, and I thought, maybe I should cancel it, because I'm going to look like a failure. But then I thought, I don't care what I don't care what people think. If I'm a failure or not, the only part of me that will be bruised is my ego, but I know that I'm so much more than that, and if Anthony Robbins can do that, I can do that. So I'm going to show up and I'm going to teach these people just as powerfully as if there was 100 people there. And so I showed up, and at first nobody was there, and I didn't care, because I didn't care anymore. I knew where I was going to build, but there is traffic and stuff, and then finally, by the end of it, nine people showed up out of the blue, and it was the one of the most amazing master classes that I taught, because I taught it in this new way of thinking, where I had I had overcome my fears of my ego, of failure and people what people Were going to think, because I knew where I was going. I was inspired by Anthony Robbins doing that. And if he can do that and build that, I can do that, you know what I mean. So   Michael Hingson ** 28:50 I do, yeah, I I'm a nosy person, and I would have wanted to try to find out what happened with the with the lens. And the reason I'd want to find out is not to fix blame or anything, but because I figured that's a learning experience too. And I have, I've had situations where it worked out whatever it was, but then I went back and asked, now, how come this happened? And when I and the other people involved figured it out, we all learned from it. But again, it's all about, as you said, not going in with guns blazing. It's not a fixing blame. Yeah, it's really all about understanding, and I think that's the most important thing. So this is all about the fact that you adopted a mindset and you decided that you're going to live that mindset, which makes a lot of sense. Mm, hmm,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 29:50 yeah, it to me. It's all mindset, because nothing is real until you create a story around it, which is why eyewitness, eyewitnesses are. Not reliable sources, because you could have the same situation happen, and people will see different thing Bay things based on the reality that they're looking for. And you know, I've even talking to my brother about childhood memories that are completely different, and I'm like, no so and so didn't say it. This person said it, and this is what happened, and in and he fully has a real, real, real memory of it happening in a completely different way. And so it's just really something happens, and we put a meaning and we put a story on it. And so whatever meaning and story you put on it determines the outcome. And so only thing we can control is the meaning and story that we put on it. So do we want to put a meaning and story that empowers us, or do we want to put a meaning and story that makes us not feel so good? And that's also the other thing that shifted in my life.   Michael Hingson ** 30:51 Yeah, it's all about now, ultimately, you're your own best teacher, and you can empower yourself. Yes. Yes, yes, absolutely. So I am not familiar with but would love to learn what is Ericksonian hypnosis.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 31:07 It's just a type of hypnosis, a different style of how you bring somebody down into the the hypnotic state screen, and then you, then you do programming while they're down in the hypnotic but, yeah, it's just a there's, there's multiple different types of hypnosis, and so that's just one of the types. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 31:31 I just never heard of of that particular one. I'm familiar with hypnosis and so on, but I wasn't familiar with Eric Sony, and didn't know whether there was something uniquely interesting about that.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 31:42 No, I think it's just the the style got it well,   Michael Hingson ** 31:47 you know, one of the things that we deal with people in general, in general, is we put a lot of our own limitations on ourselves, especially where we don't need to do that. How do we transcend or overcome limitations. One   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 32:02 of the way to do that is to recognize how powerful we are and how powerful our minds are. So a lot of people say that they can't trust, but they trust that they can't trust. They say that they're not confident, but they're confident that they're not confident, a that they don't create their own reality, and so that belief creates the reality that they don't create that reality, right? And so it's just about looking at the beliefs and saying, Do I want to hold on to this story? So a lot of people will come and say, This always happens to me, and I'll ask them, and does it always happen? And they say, No, it doesn't always happen, but this happened, this happened. This happened, this happened. And we'll say, okay, great. You're really good at validating that story. Do you want to keep validating that story, or do you want to start validating the times that it didn't happen? And it goes back to that red car theory, like, if you're driving on the road, how many red cars do you notice that day, versus if you were driving on the road looking for the red cars? How many red cars would you actually notice? And so what are you looking for? Because we're bombarded with billions of bits of information every single second, but we can only take like plus or minus seven every single second based on what we're looking for. So if we're looking for a red car, in reality, we're going to find that red car. If we're looking for a blue car, we're going to find that blue car. So what story are you telling yourself that's no longer serving you, and what story would you desire to tell yourself instead? And I'll give you an example for me, I used to have this belief that I could make a lot of money, but I couldn't hold on to it, because every time I would make the big amount of money, I'd get hit with a bill, or a pipe would burst, or something would happen. And so I kept telling that story, and I recognized that doesn't always happen. Big money's come in and it didn't go out immediately, but I didn't think about those times because I was validating the other story. So once I recognized that, I said, Okay, I'm not going to validate that other story anymore. I'm going to validate the times when I make big money and more money comes in, so that I can then have this belief that I'm building generational wealth. And that's when my finances changed and I started building generational wealth, right? It it's what we're looking for that we are then going to compound over and over and over again.   Michael Hingson ** 34:28 Yeah, again, it's back to mindset. Yes,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 34:32 it's always back to mindset.   Michael Hingson ** 34:36 That's fair. So you talked about, among other things, dealing with quantum physics and so on. Tell me about quantum leaps. So   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 34:43 quantum leaps to me a book. If you've never read this book, it's amazing. It's it's a really thin book called u squared, and the beginning of the book starts out with this fly that's beating its head against the window pane over and over and over again, trying to get out. So. When all it had to do was stop, fly back, look for the door, and fly out of the door. And so that's basically what I was doing. I was like beating my head, trying to force, trying to make these things work, pushing myself to do things that all the shoulds and the have tos, instead of taking a step back, listening to my own knowing my gut, my intuition, my truth, and then that truth being the door that's going to guide me to, you know, where I'm going. The other piece of that is I looked back on my last career, and I saw it from a whole other perspective. I thought it was from all of that pushing, forcing, all of those things, but in hindsight, when I look at it, it was the moments that I was in alignment, trusting my gut, following my intuition, doing the thing that then all of a sudden, out of the blue, this person dropped into my life, or this opportunity dropped into my life, which then quantum leads me into whole new reality. So the first time I ever wanted to teach bank like, corporate workshops, any type of corporate workshops. I knew that I wanted to teach corporate workshops, and so I started, you know, to develop a plan to figure out, like, what kind of corporations would I like to work with to help them to take everything to the next level, to help people to build success and fulfillment at the same time. And I started to think about it, and started to write a few things, and then all of a sudden, out of the blue, I met this CEO, and was starting to talk to him, and he said, Yeah, that would be awesome. Send me a proposal. So I wrote a proposal, and then they loved it, and I did my first corporate workshop. Now to me, that's a quantum leap. It was me being in alignment, knowing where I wanted to go, reprogramming my fears and my doubts. Because at first I'm like, why would a corporation take me seriously? Are they going to think that this stuff is too crazy, too out there? So I had to reprogram myself from those beliefs so that I could actually become the person that could teach the program. And once I reprogrammed all of that, then that person showed up. And because they showed up, I quantum leaped into that reality. Because otherwise I would have had to finish writing the proposal call all the corporate companies that I would want to work with, try and find the person that I wanted to speak with. You know, pitch my proposal to, who knows how many people to then hopefully get my first one. But for me, it was getting in alignment, reprogramming all the beliefs that I wasn't good enough for, then that person to drop in, and then all of a sudden, just start doing workshops. And that's basically how my career, my last career, and this career built. If you look back on your life, it's those moments that things happened, that dropped in, that ended up taking you into a different reality, like those chance encounters, or those chance things that would have happened, right? So it's how do we get in such alignment and reprogram the beliefs that are getting in the way so we could have more of those out of the blue opportunities dropping in faster.   Michael Hingson ** 38:01 It goes back to that same issue of looking for the red car. If you're looking for the red car, yes, you will see it. If you're looking to be able to do the corporate workshops, and you think about what you need to do to make it happen, recognizing that you're good enough, it will happen.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 38:20 Yes, exactly. But most of us never think that. Like, my whole life, I never thought I was good enough, you know. So it was always so much proving pleasing. You know, there's the imposter syndrome of somebody that wants to write a book, but then they're saying, Well, you know, who am I to write a book? But all the people that wrote a book never wrote a book until they wrote their first book, yeah, and so it's just just like letting go of the pressure and the expectation and just, I desire to write a book, so I'm going to write a book and I'm going to put it out in there in the world like everybody else did, every single author like you and your book, you wrote the book. That's the only difference from the people that wrote the book and didn't write the book is that you wrote the book, and you put your passion into it, and then it became, you know, such a massive life changing thing for you and so many people that read that book to hear your story well.   Michael Hingson ** 39:12 And now there are three, which is, which is fun, and you know what? Live like a guide dog. It it really goes along very well with the kinds of things you're talking about, because one of the things that we we advise and try to teach and live like a guide dog, is all about doing self analysis, looking at your your day, every day, at the end of the day, what, what worked, what didn't work, even the stuff that worked, what way might we have done to make it better? And the stuff that didn't work again, not a failure, but rather, what happened, and how do we learn from it so that won't happen again? And the reality is that at the end of the day, when we're falling asleep, we're. We have the time to do that if we really do introspection and and choose to do it. But again, it's a choice, and it's adopting the mindset that says we can do that, and it will help to increase, if you will, the mind muscle. And ultimately, the more of it we do, the less we'll fear about life. Mm,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 40:22 hmm, yes, yes. Because the fear comes from us thinking that we're not going to be able to get through it, that it's going to be so painful, that we're not going to be able to handle it, we're going to be so afraid of the disappointment. And so we don't take the leaps and we get and we just live in fear. But when we recognize our power through knowing that we get to harvest the learnings and that we're going to transmute it. We're going to get through it. We're going to turn it into our superpower. We're going to get stronger all the things we've done in the past, we've already we've gotten through so of course, we're going to get through the next thing. So when you know that you have that power to, like you said, go through the day and say what worked and what doesn't work, and how to make it better the next time, you don't have as much fear of the unknown, because you know you're going to get through it just like you did every other time. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 41:12 and you have to make the decision that it'll work,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 41:20 and then you have to make the decision to not beat yourself up,   Michael Hingson ** 41:22 because then you have the decision to not beat yourself up, right? Yeah, because pain   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 41:27 is inevitable, but suffering is something we create by the story we tell ourselves over and over and over again about the pain. And so if we know that, we're not going to beat ourselves up and create it to be suffering, we're not going to be as scared to take that next leap, because we know we'll get through the pain, and we're not going to turn it into suffering, right?   Michael Hingson ** 41:48 And we know that the pain is there to send us a signal, and we need to learn from that signal. Yes, so much. Yes,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 41:59 I love that.   Michael Hingson ** 42:02 So tell me, what is the difference between creating and achieving? Because I think that there, there really is a difference, and we're talking about both of those here in various ways.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 42:14 Yes. So creating is this playfulness. It's like this is what I desire to create. I know where I want to go. I know this goal that I want to do, and I'm going to create on this journey. I'm going to climb this mountain, and I'm going to take this step every day, and I'm going to enjoy the process of it and look at the flowers, and, you know, maybe hang by the lake for a day and then continue to go up there. But achieving is just achieving is proving pleasing. Achieving, right? It's like, I gotta get to the top of this mountain to prove that I've done this to achieve this thing. And so you rush through the journey. And that's where burnout comes from. So I don't think burnout comes from doing burnout comes from who you are when you're doing it, if you're doing the things, like when I'm doing the things out of creation, and because I love doing it, and because I desire to help people and support people, and bring this into reality, I'm having so much fun doing it, but if I'm doing it to achieve these results, if I'm doing it, because if I don't achieve these results, there's something wrong with me, or I'm a failure, or I'm not good enough, my business isn't good enough, And I'm being judged, and I care about other people's judgments, I will be burnt out, because I'm going to push and I, you know, there's so much emotion and exhaustion around the achieving, and then you're constantly just chasing that carrot, and the carrot always moves, because every time you achieve it, you want to climb the next mountain. And so you don't ever get that fulfillment, because then you're just going to go on to the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing is what I did in my last career. I just kept chasing. Kept saying, I'm going to reach this goal, and I reached that goal, and I'm like, Oh no, I don't have this one. There was, there was no fulfillment on the inside, and it was exhausting.   Michael Hingson ** 43:56 Well, you know, I hear often that people who really like what they do have discovered that it's not a job because they just enjoy doing it so much and and that's ultimately what you're really saying, is it's not a job, and I agree with that. It's we need to decide that we like what we do, and if we truly don't like it, then we should be doing it, or we should look at why we don't like it and deal with that, because it is worth doing. Yes,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 44:29 that is a great example, because when I was building this business, I did a lot of freelance work, and in the beginning I did I did the freelance work so I would have predictable money so that I could build this business the way that I desired to build it, so I wouldn't compromise myself. I wouldn't do it because I just need clients to pay the bills and all of these things. It was my passion project, and so I did the freelance work so I had predictable money to be able to pay my bills. And then this was pure creation of what i. Desired to bring to the world, and how I desired to help my clients. And at first, when I was doing these freelance jobs, I'd be so frustrated while I was there, because I'd be like, Oh, I'm here making this money. And I'm so frustrated because I could be working on my business right now, and I could be making the business grow, but I need this money, right? And my mindset turned it into, every time I did that work, you would just drain me. I'd be I'd leave so exhausted, and then I would go home and not have time to work on my other business because I didn't have energy. Until I recognized this is my choice. How lucky am I that I have this freelance job that I get to do that's bringing in this predictable money so that I get to build my dream business. How grateful I am for this freelance work, that I have this opportunity to work these amount of hours and get paid so well, so that I could build my dream business. So I showed up to those jobs in a different energy. I showed up with pure gratitude that I have that that I get to show up to this job and I'm and to do my best job, because they're giving me this opportunity to build this business. And when I did that, not only did I have more energy, that job started to become really easy, like so before, there was always fires to put out, and there was always drama and everything. But after, I shifted this mindset to gratitude. And I started to just say, How can I serve? How can I be here and be my best self, because I'm grateful for this job. Then all of a sudden I would come on shift, and everything would just work. And like, the dramas would go away, the fires would go away, things would be easy. And then some of the other people would say, I want to be on Jocelyn shift, because whenever she shows up, it's like easy, but that was from gratitude. That was from gratitude, from showing up, you know, wanting to serve. And it shifted my reality. And then I had all this energy, because I felt so good. And sometimes we'd finish early. A lot of times we'd finish early, or the job would be so easy that when I came home, I had energy to work on my business. And then that's how I shifted my business. So it's really the it's not what we do, it's who we are when we're doing it. What are we feeling on the inside that we're then projecting out, that people are then responding to   Michael Hingson ** 47:14 and and the reality is, some of the fires may have still been there, but they're not fires anymore,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 47:21 yes, yes, exactly, exactly, because I perceive them in a different way,   Michael Hingson ** 47:27 right? Exactly, which is the whole point?   47:30 Yes, yes, I love that. So   Michael Hingson ** 47:33 how do we get people to recognize when they're experiencing burnout, much less. How do we get them to change their mindset, to eliminate the burnout process?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 47:49 It just comes from their choice. It comes from their choice to to decide how they desire to see it. So, I mean, a lot of it, too comes from reprogramming. So, I mean, that's what I do in my programs, right? Is that if there are with burnout, we just discover where is it coming from? Like, is it coming from the pushing, the pleasing, achieving, the not being good enough, the worried what people are going to think, the failure, like all the stuff, the hoping that it's going to work out, afraid that it's not going to work out, because that's all the stuff that we leak our energy to. Once we discover what that is and we reprogram it so you don't have that you can just do it as a task. You show up and you do a task. One of my NLP teachers told me something that was so powerful, which was he said that the best, best basketball player in the world also has the highest amount of missed shots in the world, and that's why he's the best basketball player, because he just takes the shot. He doesn't beat himself up every single time he takes the shot. He's just taking a shot and a shot and a shot and a shot and a shot. He's playing to win. He's not playing not to lose. And so there's a difference in that energy. And so once you discover what that is, you get to then shift your mindset. So we it's very it's, it's quite easy to kind of find where the triggers are coming from. It's like, where are you getting pissed off? Where are you getting frustrated? Right? Like, those are the triggers. Then it's about, how do we then remove the triggers with whatever tool that you have, with mindset, with reprogramming, with hypnosis, with quantum physics, like whatever it's going to be, podcasts, listening to these things to come up with a new story, and then the resilience to create that new story to be your new story. So every time it doesn't go the way that you had planned, not getting caught up in saying, Oh, see it happened again, saying, okay, oh well, I'm not fully in that new programming yet, and so it's still showing up a little bit. But how do I harvest the learnings? And then how do I pivot? And then how do I do something different? And you just keep doing that until your reality eventually shifts. This   Michael Hingson ** 49:56 is so freaky. The other day, it was like yesterday, or. Monday or Sunday. I can't remember which day, but I was thinking about basketball players and some of the really famous, good basketball players, and thinking, why are they such horrible free throw shooters? And why are they in a in a sense, why is there a percentage what it is, and I came to the same conclusion that you talked about, but it's just kind of funny that the discussion in my brain was there and now, here it is again. But it's true. It's all about being willing to take the shot and   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 50:34 just taking the shot and not putting the meaning on it. It's when we put the meaning on it that it exhausts us. If you think about taking a shot, it's fine, but the minute you think about taking the shot, but hoping you're going to make it or not going to make it, because what are people going to think and what is that going to mean about you, and all that other stuff, all of a sudden it becomes a big ball of energy that you're leaking instead of I'm just taking the shot, because I know I'm going to get in, I'm going to get one in. So the more shots I take, you know, like Disney, he got rejected 33 times before the 34th time he got the loan. But if he just every single time, like, you know, gave up, we would not have what we have. But he just kept going in and doing it. And if you know that on the 34th time you're going to get accepted. How fast would you keep going back to banks and saying, Hey, until you get the loan right?   Michael Hingson ** 51:27 Well, and the issue with the shots, every time you take a shot and miss, if you're taking the shot, to continue to take the shot, as opposed to this one has to be the one to go in. You're also, I think, subconsciously, studying, well, why didn't that shot go in? What do I learn? Because this shot didn't go in, or the next one goes in, why did that one go in? What do I do to replicate that and become more effective?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 52:00 Yeah. How do I harvest the learnings and pivot and do it better next time? Yeah? And if you just focus on the solution versus the problem, you'll get there, right? Yeah, okay, well, and the more that you get it in, you know what that feels like. So you get to replicate that again next time, right? And the more that you don't, then you find, like Edison said, he found 1000 he didn't fail. He found 1000 different ways how not to   Michael Hingson ** 52:28 do something right.   52:30 Exactly.   Michael Hingson ** 52:33 You know it is, it is so true, and it's all about that's why I continue to say there's no such thing as failure. The other thing I used to say about myself because I like to listen to my speeches. I record them and listen to them, and I do it because I want to learn what what worked, what didn't work. How can I do this better? And I always used to say, I'm my own worst critic. But I always thought that was a negative sort of thing, and literally only within about the last 14 or 15 months have I started to say, in reality, I'm my own best teacher. It's a much more positive and open way of doing it, and it makes listening all that much more fun and exciting. By the way,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 53:14 I love that, and that's the creating versus achieving, right? Like, that's the different energy. Tweak that when you're doing it now you enjoy it versus before you were beating yourself up, right,   Michael Hingson ** 53:26 right? Very much. So yeah, and that's, of course, the issue. So you, you've you continue to celebrate the fact that you were a model, and now you've gone on to a different life, and you're continuing to create and enhance that life. How do you how do you deal with both of those lives? You You really have adopted this celebration right across the board? I think,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 53:57 yeah, I don't see it as different parts of, I mean, I just see them all as different, like, it's just a different   Michael Hingson ** 54:04 chapter. It's progressing, right? Yeah, and that's what I thought after   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 54:07 was each chapter was exactly what it was, and it was so amazing, and I and, and the next chapter gets to be more amazing, and the next chapter gets to be more amazing, and because it's an evolution over your entire lifetime. And so you just keep evolving. You know, there's a post out there about, I can't remember the ages, but like all these people that open businesses in their 40s, their 50s, their 60s, Walmart and, you know, Kentucky Fried Chicken, and all these different companies that didn't actually like they didn't create it. They tried. They were creating things, but it didn't hit until later in the years. And most people think, Oh, we get to this age, we retire. We're done. But that's not true. We get to keep creating our entire life. We get to keep evolving our entire life. We get to keep climbing more mountains. I've climbed that mountain that was awesome. Now. Me climb this mountain, not because I have to, not because I need to prove myself, but because I get to, right. If you can shift your words from need, have, should to I get to that is the difference between creating and achieving. It's like I get to do this, like I get to show up. I used to when I was starting this new business. I used to not like social media at all, and I just wish that I could just have clients and coach and mentor, because that's all I love to do. I didn't like to, you know, do the marketing and do the social media and do all the rest of the stuff. I was just like, I wish I could just receive clients and coach and mentor, because that's what I love, and that's my passion. And then I realized I can't do that. I can go work for a corporate company, and I can do that, but I don't have time freedom to be with my child. I don't have I'm Max capped out about how much I can earn or create because I'm working for someone else, or I can go off on my own. And I get to get good at marketing. I get to get good at social media. I get to get good at all the other things, as well as getting good at getting better at coaching and mentoring, so that I can be my own boss, that so that I can be with my child and travel and take him and work from my computer around the world, so that I can do speaking engagements around the world, and that I can build this business as big as I desire, the way that I desire. So everything then became a get to so then when I showed up for social media, I was excited for it, versus like, Oh, this is so frustrating. I wish this wasn't part of my job. So you, once you shift the get oh, everything opens up, and then everything starts working as well, because your energy opens up and we get to learn, yes, exactly, we get to learn and now, now in a lot of different things, thanks to that,   Michael Hingson ** 56:51 there you are, right, exactly, which makes a whole lot of sense. Changing your belief really changes your life, changing your mindset and looking for that open way to allow you to deal with all the things that come along, can they get to, as opposed to have to way certainly just enhances your whole outlook.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 57:16 Yes, absolutely, yeah. And it can change overnight. If you can just look at everything in your life that you're grateful for, that you a younger version of you dreamed about, that you now have in your life, even your phone, your computer like you wanted that now you have it, but you take it for granted until you lose it, and then you don't appreciate it till you get it back. And you're like, Oh, I love it so much, right? Like, if we just shift from looking from everything that's wrong with our life to everything that's incredible, we get to be full of gratitude while we're creating our next level that frequency, gratitude is this most powerful frequency. It opens synchronicity. It helps you to become magnetized, so that people are then magnetized to you. If you think about going into a shop and there's like, this grumpy person who's complaining all the time, versus this, like charismatic, happy, loving life, loving life, salesperson, which one are you going to be attracted to working with, you're going to be attracted to working with the one that looks for the positive outcome, that doesn't see limitations, that sees ways to transcend them. You know, that's not complaining about all the things that are going wrong, but showing you what could go right instead. And so then your business opens up as well. Because you're magnetized, you start meeting people that want to come and talk to you, you know, like you could be in a restaurant, and you're just drawn to looking at someone that walks into the room and you don't know why, you don't know who they are, what they do, you just there something about their energy draws you to them, and it's that energy that becomes their calling card. And so when you are in this gratitude and this loving of life and not seeing limitations. You just see opportunities to grow. You become magnetized. People want to be around that. People are inspired by that. So now you start attracting opportunities into your life, instead of, you know, trying to force and push and chase them. And it goes back to the saying that I absolutely love, which is, instead of chasing butterflies, build your own garden, so the butterflies come to you. Yeah, so, and it's also like that other saying that the grass is always greener on the other side, until you start watering your own grass. Like those two sayings completely changed my life. Yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 59:38 Well, you know, I, when I was growing up, I lived about 55 miles west of here in a town called Palmdale, and I now live in Victorville. But when I was growing up, I described Victorville as compared to Palmdale that only had like about 2700 people. I described Victorville as not even a speck on a race. Our scope compared to Palmdale. I never imagined myself once I moved away, moving back to Victorville or to this whole area, but my wife became ill with double pneumonia in 2014 she recovered from that. Family started saying, you really ought to move down c

In April of 1975, Communists succeeded in overwhelming their enemies to take over Vietnam. The last major city to fall was Saigon. That event is one of those historic times many remember who lived through it as well as those of us who only experienced it through Television and newspapers. Our guest today, Miki Nguyen, was six and a half years old when he and his family escaped from Saigon on a Chinook Helicopter piloted by his father.   Miki willingly tells us his story and that of his family who all escaped and came to America. Miki tells us of his growing up in a new land and how he eventually was given the opportunity to bring his father's story to life. Miki's dad wanted to write a book about what happened in 1975 as well as describing his life. He passed ten years ago and was unable to publish his book. Last year, Miki found his father's writings and undertook to bring his father's story to life. The book is entitled “The Last Flight Out”.   As Miki tells us the story of his family's flight from Saigon he also provides pictorial representations of what happened. If you watch this episode on YouTube you will get to see those pictures.   Personally, I can relate to Miki's story as in so many ways it parallels my own experiences on September 11, 2001. I hope you like and learn much from this week's episode. Let me know your thoughts please.       About the Guest:   Miki Nguyen is a storyteller dedicated to preserving the legacy of his father, Lieutenant Colonel Ba Van Nguyen, a heroic figure whose daring escape from Saigon during the Fall of Vietnam in 1975 was immortalized in the 2015 Oscar-nominated documentary Last Days in Vietnam. As the son of a South Vietnamese Air Force officer, Miki's life has been shaped by his family's extraordinary journey from the chaos of war to rebuilding their lives in America. Today, he shares stories of courage, sacrifice, and resilience in his late father's memoir "The Last Flight Out" to commemorate 50 years since the Fall of Saigon. Born into a world of upheaval, Miki witnessed firsthand the harrowing final days of the Vietnam War as a child, fleeing Saigon with his family in a dramatic helicopter evacuation to the USS Kirk. His father's bravery under fire and unwavering commitment to saving loved ones left an indelible mark on Miki, inspiring him to compile and share his father's stories decades later. Through The Last Flight Out, Miki bridges the past and present, offering readers an intimate glimpse into the sacrifices of war, the challenges of resettlement, and the quiet strength of his mother, Nho Nguyen, who anchored the family through unimaginable adversity. As a speaker, Miki captivates audiences with a narrative that transcends history, weaving universal themes of resilience, cultural identity, and leadership into his talks. Whether addressing corporate teams, educational institutions, on Podcasts, or cultural organizations, he draws parallels between his family's journey and modern-day challenges, emphasizing the power of hope and community in overcoming obstacles. His presentations, enriched with archival photos and personal anecdotes, resonate deeply with veterans, immigrants, and anyone seeking inspiration to navigate life's uncertainties. Miki is committed to amplifying his father's legacy and honoring the courageous individuals who shaped his family's journey—from Captain Paul Jacobs and the USS Kirk crew, whose heroism ensured their evacuation during Saigon's fall, to the Lutheran church members in Seattle who provided sanctuary and support as they rebuilt their lives in America. Through the memoir, speaking engagements, and other partnerships, Miki invites audiences to reflect on these unsung stories of courage and resilience while embracing a future defined by empathy and unity. Ways to connect Miki:   Email: mdn425@gmail.com / miki@nguyenvanba.com Website: https://nguyenvanba.com/miki/ Instagram: instagram.com/last.flight.out.nvb/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@mikinguyen44   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello everyone. Once again. Wherever you happen to be, I am your host, Mike Hingson, and you are listening to Unstoppable Mindset, mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and as we've defined unexpected here on the podcast, it's anything that has to do with anything other than inclusion and diversity. A few weeks ago, I got an email from a friend of mine and someone I work with at yesterday usa.net it's a radio station that plays old radio shows all day, and anyway, Walden Hughes, who we really need to get on this podcast as well. Told me about Miki when, because Miki expressed, or Walden has expressed an interest in having Miki on yesterday USA, and Miki had an interesting story, and has an interesting story to tell, and I thought that it would be fun to bring him on to unstoppable mindset, because his father and family were basically, if you will, as you will hear on the last flight out of Saigon in Vietnam when that war ended in 1975 so that's 50 years ago. Anyway, Miki generously agreed to come on. And so here we are. So Miki, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Really appreciate it and looking forward to having a chance to chat.   Miki Ngyuen ** 02:47 Yeah, thank you, Michael, just really honored and appreciate the opportunity to be on your platform and to share with you in your audience, my father and my family story. The this is a story that has been told around the dinner table for many, many years. And as we are here now in early 2025 this marks, this will mark at the end of April here, coming up the 50 year remembrance, as you noted, the the fall of Saigon and so yeah, again, just really happy to be here. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 03:27 let's start as I love to do, and I know it kind of is part of the story, but tell us a little about kind of the early Miki growing up and and things that you might want to talk about from childhood and so on.   Miki Ngyuen ** 03:38 Yeah, I we in at the end of April, 1975 I was six and a half years old, and so, to answer your question, I grew up on a military base, basically my dad towards the end there, Lieutenant Colonel was a pilot for the south of Vietnamese Air Force, and he flew various Chinooks. The the one that we're referencing here is the the Chinook helicopter, CH 47 and so this is young childhood for me, growing up on the barracks, the oldest of three, three kids, brother Mecca and baby sister Mina. And this was a childhood where very curious about things the world around me, on the barracks, there were a lot of heavy artillery. And one story, my mom would sure it's a kid dragging home a box of of ammunition, just to say, you know, Hey, Mom, look what I found laying around. So this was a. In early childhood, growing up during a a war torn country back in those days,   Michael Hingson ** 05:07 yeah, certainly couldn't have been easy to do. So, what schooling did you have while you were still in Vietnam?   Miki Ngyuen ** 05:14 Oh, this is six, six and a half, just kind regarding kindergarten. Yeah, pretty, pretty much. So the Vietnamese that I was able to learn, you know, was just talking with parents, mom and dad, early kindergarten schooling. But otherwise, my Vietnamese now as an adult is not as strong as I would like it to be, but you know the reality of coming to America at six and a half seven. Grew up post war all American high school, so yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 05:53 now were your parents from Vietnam originally? Yes, yes. Okay, so it it had to be tough for you, and it had to really be tough for them, and I'm sure that they were worried about you and your brother and sister a lot and and dealing with all the things that you all had to deal with, that had to really be a challenge. Did they as as you were growing up in America and so on. Did they talk about, or want to talk much about, what your what your life was like, your heritage and so on, from Vietnam?   Miki Ngyuen ** 06:31 No, absolutely. It was my my father, my mom's philosophy, to always continue to keep our culture and our heritage and the things that you know was good about our culture, the Vietnamese culture, and to continue it forward while living, trying to assimilate and live here in in the United States. So growing up, it was straddling of both cultures, both Western and the Vietnamese Eastern culture as well, during our upbringing. And so it continues to be strong today, where for my own kids, you know, we continue to celebrate and our Vietnamese heritage and culture. Although American Vietnamese, I hold a US passport. My blood still runs with a lot of the Vietnamese culture that was raised on. It's   Michael Hingson ** 07:32 an interesting paradox, or paradox is probably the wrong word to use, but you have an interesting dichotomy you have to deal with. You're from Vietnam, you embrace the Vietnamese culture, but you live in America, and unfortunately, in our society today, we have a government that has been pushing so much on anything that isn't really American, isn't really American. And how do you how do you deal with that? What do you think about that, that whole concept, and that, ultimately, there are those who would say, well, you're you're not American because you didn't come from here, and that's a frustrating thing. But I'd be curious to get your thought, well, it's   Miki Ngyuen ** 08:17 to say it's a it's the same conversation as you know, the Ellis Island story, right? The only, the only folks that I would say that can claim that they're here with Native Americans, everybody else migrated either east or west, from Europe or from Asia or from the Middle East or Africa to get here. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 08:36 Yeah, it is. And from, from my thoughts and perspective, it's, it's a joy that you, you have two cultures to be able to celebrate and and work with, which gives you a broader perspective on the world as a whole. I grew up in America. I didn't really do a great job of learning foreign languages, although I took High School German and I learned some Spanish, and I actually took a year of Japanese in college. But still, my whole grounding is is in America, but I do love to go to other countries and see and get to experience other cultures, even though I know I don't live there, but I, and I do come back here, but I, but I think that what you bring is a great perspective for people to understand a whole part of the world that's different than what they're used To, which is a good thing.   Miki Ngyuen ** 09:41 Well, that's why they, they call America the great melting pot, right? We bring, we want to, we want to bring our best. We, you know, there can be conversations around refugees and immigration stories here and there, but. I think for the most part, you know, diverse cultures, different folks coming from other parts of the you know, we contributed to America, whether it be through bringing, you know, food or arts or ideologies, and that's what makes America, you know, strong, is just people bringing their best here. And sure, there's going to be negatives here and there. But you know, if we're come from a place of goodness, a place of positivity and working with each other. I think the spirit of America and the spirit of the great melting pot here can can continue to flourish and be strong from that standpoint. And   Michael Hingson ** 10:52 I and I think it absolutely is exactly what you said. It's the melting pot, it's the spirit, and that's what we need to remember, because that is what has always made this country so great, and will continue to, no matter what some may say. And I'm glad that we we have the the depth of overall culture, which really is made up of so many other cultures. When you got to America, what was it like then going to school here and finishing your growing up period here?   Miki Ngyuen ** 11:30 It was a, I don't want to use the word struggle. My parents struggled more. But for myself coming to the US here it was quickly to assimilate, you know, that's the word that just simply out of survival, simply out of just making friends and keeping the friends that, you know, I had growing up in first grade and second grade and so on. And growing up in the mid 70s here looking different than the rest of the white kids, you know, in elementary school, I got called all sorts of racial names, and so I know on your, you know, with your your message of disability, and   Miki Ngyuen ** 12:25 functioning in, you know, I had my own struggles as well in terms of just being different, you know, then, then the next kid in elementary school. So, but we learned to adapt, we learned to maneuver, and we learned to communicate and develop social skills to blend in, and again, that word assimilate, just to survive. So   Michael Hingson ** 12:51 where did you Where did you all settle once you got to the US? Where did you go to school? Oh,   Miki Ngyuen ** 12:58 so we're located here on the outskirts of Seattle, suburbs of Seattle area, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 13:06 I remember when so many people were coming over and from Vietnam, and they had some refugee encampments for A while. I was contacted by a church group, because at a local area near where I was attending college at the University of California at Irvine, there was such a place, and there was a blind person there, and they wanted to get this person, that was a young man, to meet blind people. So I went out. We even brought him a transistor radio. He didn't speak great English, but we were able to communicate. And that was probably the closest I came to dealing with, in a sense, all the things that all of you dealt with. So I but I do understand we as a collective society, sometimes don't really deal with difference as well as we ought to we we don't recognize that the very fact that we have some things that are difference is what makes us stronger when we embrace the fact that everyone has their own set of gifts and challenge and challenges to deal with, right? Exactly,   Miki Ngyuen ** 14:22 yeah, exactly. The just to provide more context, yeah, the there was a church across the crest, Lutheran Church here in Bellevue, out about 30 minutes from Seattle, that sponsored our family and yeah, that's how that's how we we ended up here in the story of my father and my my family was no the only thing different, because during the. April, end of April timeframe in 1975 the communists finally took over, as many of your audience know, you know, Saigon and the rest of Vietnam, and we had to, we had to get the heck out of there, because if my dad would have gotten captured by the communists, he would have been set in jail for a long time. And so our, our or worse, yes, exactly or worse, our, our family story is no different than anybody else's refugee boat people story coming out of Vietnam. The only difference was what my dad did as a pilot, what he did to to rescue our family and his crew's family and the maneuver that he executed at sea with a large Chinook helicopter, so much that it was was honored 10 years ago to share the same story with in an Oscar nominated film last year in Vietnam, written and produced by Rory Kennedy, and so there are so many, there's so many other Vietnamese refugee stories, but this one was, was our particular family story, and it's the story of my father's bravery, courage, our family's resiliency, among other various leadership kinds of themes. So that's, that's the premise of things.   Michael Hingson ** 16:27 Yeah, I understand. Well, what, what did you say you went to college? Where'd you go   Miki Ngyuen ** 16:35 to? Studied engineering at the University of Washington here in the Seattle area,   Michael Hingson ** 16:42 didn't, didn't try to help the basketball team, huh? Just, just checking, no, it's   16:50 too short for basketball, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 16:52 Well, you know. And of course, in in the March, April, time frame of every year, we have March Madness, which is really crazy. I was disappointed to see Gonzaga get out of it so quickly. But oh well, of course, most people don't even know where Gonzaga is. I actually had the the lovely opportunity to speak there once, so it was kind of fun. So I've been there so anyway, well, so you went off and studied in engineering, and that's what you did after college.   Miki Ngyuen ** 17:23 No, I after college, I was an engineer for a couple years, and then pivoted over into the marketing side of things and focused in in technology. I mean, from your background, you also, you know, did sales, especially with your story 20 plus years ago, worked in technology sales, and your involvement with a tech company today accessible. So yeah, that's, that's, yeah, that's my. My background is tech marketing,   Michael Hingson ** 17:55 well, and I started out doing tech stuff, helping to work in the development of the original reading machine for the blind that Ray Kurzweil developed, but that ended up going into sales for a variety of reasons. So I appreciate where you're coming from and and feel a lot for the kinds of experiences that you've had. Well, why don't you tell us a little bit about what happened with your father, and the whole, the whole story of the escape, the last flight out, flying out with the Chinook and all that that happened. Oh   Miki Ngyuen ** 18:32 yes, so let's, let's get into let me go ahead and share the some pictures here. And I, as I told you, for you know, pictures worth 1000 words and but I'll narrate it in such a way that all audiences can can get into the the whole story. So this was, this was a moment again. This is a family story that was shared around the dinner table for many, many years post 1975 and I'm sharing the story through the lens of a six and a half year old boy experiencing what I saw and what I what I went through, and the picture that we're showing here on the First slide here is just images of my father, Bob van win, who, in the early, early 60s, got an opportunity after college to test and train to and finally got admitted into the the Air Force. And in the mid 60s, got an opportunity to come to Fort Rucker and study and fly helicopters, and came to America again in 69 to for additional training. And so my father grew up, family, grandmother, education was of utmost important. Importance, as well as family and community. And so towards the towards and the next slide I'm showing here is towards April 29 1975 we see iconic images in time, Life magazine, in the media here in the US, images of the Communists the North tanks rolling into Saigon and overtaking the city. And in the film, the documentary, again last season Vietnam, we see images. We see video clips of folks trying to get into the US Embassy to get access to a helicopter to get out of there, because folks, people that were serving working with American or the American personnel, anybody that was involved in the south fighting against communism would, have, you know, been in jail or put into, you know, a tough situation post war, if they gotten captured. And so we see a mass chaos, mass exodus trying to get out of of the city there. And so it was my my dad's knew that had he stayed and not figured things out, he would have been either killed or put in jail for a long time, and so he, at this point, waited out for orders from his commanding officers and his leadership at all of the top brass took off with their family trying to figure out how to get out themselves. And my dad, with the Chinook, went and picked up our family in at this moment in time of mom, myself, brother and sister, we were at my grandma's house. Uh, we've been there for about a couple weeks to get out of the the military base that we were on, and at Grandma's house. I remember the night before, my dad coming to get us a bombing and machine guns rattling around the neighborhood and around the city there. So it was pretty tense for our family at that time, my dad with the helicopter, Chinook helicopter in I'm sure you and your in the audience, you driving down the road or over, flying over your house, you hear a Chinook. Is very thunderous of and so it's a big equipment, big, big aircraft. And what he did was land at the Chinook in front of my grandma's house play a play field, and blew, you know, a lot of the roofs and commotion, and folks around the neighborhood were just surprised. You know of this helicopter landing in the middle of the middle, middle of sea.   Michael Hingson ** 23:22 Did you know that he was coming? Yes,   Miki Ngyuen ** 23:25 my dad had told my mom the days earlier that I'll be coming to get you. We'll figure this out, because at this moment in time, there's probably no way that we're going to survive the the Communists were coming and get ready. Get, you know, pack the bags, get get things ready and but we didn't know that he would come in in such a way. We figured maybe he would come in a vehicle, the military vehicle, to come in and get us. But he actually came with a with the with the Chinook, and landed right in front of the right in front of the house.   Michael Hingson ** 23:58 How many people was the Chinook hold. Well, at this time, in front   Miki Ngyuen ** 24:02 of my grandson, just our immediate family and but it would hold a lot of folks, a lot of folks. And towards the towards later on, we'll get to that point. But towards it we had like about 1715, 1617, people, crew member, their their girlfriends and family in in the in the helicopter. Yeah, that was what I was wondering,   Michael Hingson ** 24:28 because you said it was big. So I was just trying to get a perspective on what big really meant. And that's why I asked how many people it would hold. Oh,   Miki Ngyuen ** 24:36 yeah, understood, yeah. So the Chinook is probably, it is probably the largest helicopter in the, you know, the fleet of helicopters Arsenal so but he landed hatch opens up on the back, and the Chinook as a is a double, double, uh. Uh, a rotor, double prop helicopter. And family ran to the back of the the helicopter. They closed the hatch up, and my my father, accelerated, you know, the the engines and lifted up and out of, out of the area there. And the thinking was to rendezvous up with a few other of his squadron crew members and to head further south of the hot zone, Saigon, and to load up on the food and ration and gas so that we would continue further south and maybe perhaps lay low, find an island to just figure out what to do next, from that standpoint, and that's that's where We actually did was, along with our family, he had co pilot, and he had his gunner and the mechanic in their, you know, their their family members or girlfriends in the in the Chinook, once we loaded up On, on all of the, the food and everything fuel lifted up and out. And at the same time, he heard my father continued to monitor the the the radio communication. And he heard that there were US Navy, US ships out in the Pacific, now out east in the Pacific. And so he figured, we'll take a risk and head in in that direction, towards the the ocean there, and he didn't know exactly, you know, the exact GPS location, or the exact whereabouts of it, particularly, just headed out there blind and trying to find whatever option he could find. And out in the distant there, he sees a ship. And he goes, Well, this is my first chance. I'm going to go approach it and see if I'm able to land on it or figure out what to do next from there. And so heads in that direction. And we see, he sees a a uh, what we know now today is the frigate, and it wasn't, it was too small. It wasn't big enough to, you know, it wasn't like a an aircraft carrier, where you can actually land on it. And so the the next slide that I'm showing here, basically, as he approaches this, this ship, the crewman below, the US Navy crewman below was waving him like, you know, waving him away. Don't, don't, don't come here. You're simply you're too big. There's no way that you can land on on this ship. And so he kept circling the ship eventually found out the name of the ship was named the USS Kirk, and the captain was Captain Paul Jacobs. And my father continued to circle and figure out some way to, you know, ask for help. And we see in the one of the images here, that on the port side, the left side of the of the Chinook, my my mom holding up eight month old baby onto the the window part to let the crew in below know that, hey, we're not, you know, we're, we're we got kids, we got family on here. We need, we need help. And so eventually, what my dad was able to speak with the captain below, and both the captain and my father were able to coordinate the next step here, and which was to allow my father to hover right next to right behind the ship the stern to allow folks to to exit the helicopter. But prior to that, the slide that I'm showing here shows many other Vietnamese pilots and their families with smaller, smaller helicopters, the Huey helicopters landing, able to land on on the deck. And after they land, they would push the smaller helicopters over to into the ocean. And the continuing to do that as more families came on on, you know, was able to land. Uh, the next slide I'm showing here is the actual Captain Paul Jacobs throughout, throughout this whole narrative, my father is, is, is the person that my father's my hero. But there are other heroes throughout this whole story as well, and one of those I want to acknowledge is Captain Paul Jacobs, where we see in this image here, he was on the deck. He he wasn't in the command tower, directing, telling his, you know, crew, what to do. He was actually on the deck helping with his crew members, pushing and telling folks, as well as himself, jumping in and pushing smaller helicopters over the the side, making room for to clear, clear the the ship's deck. And so he's an outstanding individual, a hero in my book as well. And so once the deck was clear enough so that my dad was able to hover, what he did was basically fly the Chinook horizontal backwards to maintain the same steady high height, as well as a safe distance away from from the USS Kirk. And we found out later on that the this particular ship of frigate was a submarine destroyer. So it had all of the high tech equipment back, sonars, radars, all of the antenna and so it's very my father's had to be very careful in terms of how close he could have gotten, how close he could get to keeping the the distance as well as allowing folks to to jump down. And that's that's what we did. He kept it steady. And he was hovering about 1315, feet above the deck, and tells the co pilot to open up the starboard door and so that we would have access to jump. The picture that I'm showing you here is an illustration by Adam colts showing myself my mom, family members crews jumping from this Chinook down onto many of the crew members below, catching us as we as we exited. We also have an illustration from that I clipped out from the New York Times doing an illustration of my mom dropping a baby sister onto the crew, the crewmen below, and many years later, many years later on, at a reunion with the crew member and the captain of the USS Kirk, one of the men below, Kent Chipman, introduced himself to us as one of the sailors below catching us. It was like you described as, like catching a a basketball coming out of the the helicopter. And so once everybody exited out, he my father told the co pilot to make sure that everybody safely gotten out, make sure that everybody had cleared the the rear of the helicopter, and then he finally told the the co pilot to go ahead and and jump himself now onto the deck. And so I remember, it's the last thing I remember as a six and a half year old boy who was being ushered inside, inside the the ship. They didn't want any kids running around on the deck. Yeah. And the last thing that we see, you know, is seeing my father hovering away from the ship. Now is just him by himself at this point in this large helicopter.   Miki Ngyuen ** 34:04 So it wasn't, it wasn't until, it wasn't until maybe, like half hour later that we we see my father again. But from from, from the point where he had to hover. After everybody jumped off the helicopter. He hovered away from the the ship. And at this point there was, you know, the only option here was to get a remove himself from from the helicopter. He wasn't going to go back to land or go back to the city. His family was on the ship now, and he need to be with his family. And so what he did was take the Chinook about 100 yards away from the ship, and hovered above the water, and at that point, kept the helicopter steady, and while at the same time taking off his.   Miki Ngyuen ** 45:00 Did the heavy lifting 100% they in so many ways, in terms of when we talk about a challenge or an obstacle, they had my mom had to learn a completely new, different language, had to start all over again, not knowing exactly what their future was going to be, but at the same time, you know the freedom, the freedom in America and what America represented was just an opportunity that they knew that even though it was a struggle as a challenge to re readapt, to assimilate, learn a new language, find a new career, it was still a lot better than the other option, yeah. And then to answer your question, as for me, as a six, six and a half year old boy, or six, yeah, seven year old boy, you're right. It was, it was more of an adventure than it was anything in terms of fear, because, again, as I said, my mom and dad took the burden of all of that paved the way for myself, brother and sister, but throughout my life, up to that point, it was just an adventure to jump off from the helicopter was, to me, like jumping, you know, playing around a tree, jumping off a tree. But for my mom, who had to take the courage to drop a baby, her baby from from an airplane, and the fear of change, the anxiety of of in the struggle of war and everything else at a different at a different level that my hat's off to both my parents from that time.   Michael Hingson ** 46:57 I'm sure that, in a sense, while things were happening, your mom didn't analyze it. And think about the time of war, she did what she had to do, and your father did what they had to do. And then after the fact, they obviously thought back about it and and probably had times of going, Wow, what? What did we do? And not in a regretful way, but at the time something is happening, you do what you have to do, and then you think about it later. And I guess for you, when did all of this really become real and a story? Well, not a story worth telling, but when did it really emotionally all sink into you, what really happened? Because that had to happen, obviously, later than that night   Miki Ngyuen ** 47:48 it it became super, super real for me. 2009 window discovered, again from mister Jan Herman, finding my father's story and sharing with us the pictures from the US Navy. Yeah, because, because, up to that point, from 1975 up to 2009 this was a story that I grew up throughout my life and experienced a bit of it jumping, but the the things that my father shared in terms of doing the ditch maneuver and growing up as a boy, listening to him talk with his buddies around the dinner table. Or when they would have reunions, they would my, you know, I would be, you know, seen and not heard, type of a family situation, just, you know, listening into my father's conversation with his his buddies, hearing, hearing about it, and then finally, seeing pictures from the US Navy in 2009 that was when it really, really kicked in. Because as a kid growing up, I would share these stories. Friends would ask me, how'd you come you know, where are you from, and how did you get here? And I would share, you know, how we got to America and escape from escape from Vietnam. But it didn't really hit until 2009 once we actually saw the images that my dad was, he was, he did what he said, and we got pictures to prove it. So, yeah, yeah. And I want to touch upon the thing they mentioned a few minutes ago, in terms of my mom and dad and I know that you're, you're an Eagle Scout. I I never went that far in terms of Scott. I went to second class, so outstanding for you, going all the way as an ego scout. But the one thing that I learned from Scott is that word always be prepared. Always, always be prepared. I teach my kids that as well. And so in terms of my my mom and dad, they you can be prepared, you know, for the worst case scenario. And that's what actually happened in the end. The South Vietnam lost to commun to the communists, and at that. Point, and I'm going to weave in the story that you've shared as well in your on your platform, in terms of that day 911 where you had to, you had to do what you had to do with with your dog and and with everybody else trying to figure out how to get out of that, try to exit that building for safety and things like that. And so it was one of those things where you just had to, you can only prepare so much. And in the moment of crisis, or in that moment of of things crumbling literally around you, whether it be your country or a building crumbling around you, you have to figure out you have to, you know, cleverness, communication, working with others around you, teamwork, all of that had to come into play for survival. And so both, I mean, you know, both of our, my, your story, my my family, my father and my mother's story, myself as just a kid tagging along was, was that trying to figure out some way to exit yourself from a moment of dire, a moment of chaos, and so I can, I can under, I can resonate, I can, I can appreciate that   Michael Hingson ** 51:15 well. And the thing is that the thing you have to mostly prepare for is, is your mind, and prepare is your mind. It's and it's how you prepare to deal with things that may happen you you can't, as I tell people, there's no way to train someone to deal, as such, with a falling building, or, as you say, losing a country, but you can prepare your mind to be able to say, I can do this, and I don't need to allow the fear of what's going on to stop me. I can use that as a powerful tool to help that preparation is the most important thing we can do for anything that happens in our lives, and that's what we really have to focus on. Because I've been asked many times questions like, well, you know, how do you teach your dog how to escape from a tough, falling building or a tall building like you did in the World Trade Center? Yeah, that's not what you that's not what you teach the dog to deal with. You teach the dog to focus. You teach yourself to focus, and you teach both of you where you are, the leader, you teach yourself how to deal with whatever situation comes along and worry only about the things that you have control over, because the rest isn't going to going to help you to worry about because you don't have control over it.   Miki Ngyuen ** 52:48 Right, right, right. Yeah, go ahead. No, I just letting that sink in. I yeah, there's ever a time to be very present, very calm, very cool and collected. Because once, once you start, once you start, you know lack of a better term, freaking out or losing it mentally, things could fall apart even, even worse. And so staying calm under pressure is critical,   Michael Hingson ** 53:21 which doesn't mean that you're not afraid, but you use the fear in a different way than you would if you allowed yourself to, if you will freak out, which is really the whole point. Well, so you you clearly have written this book. Why did you write it? No, I expect to help. What do you expect to help? To get from it   Miki Ngyuen ** 53:42 Sure. I again, I did not write this book. It was my father. Why   Michael Hingson ** 53:46 did you? Why did you decide to bring it forward? Oh,   Miki Ngyuen ** 53:52 number one, to honor, to honor my father's wishes. Number one, it, and number two, along with that, is to pass down to his great grandkids, and you know, their their kids, his story, our family story of how we came to America. This was the for the Vietnamese community. This was our Ellis Island story. And number one, to archive and to honor my my my father. Number two, the third one really is, this is a story that it doesn't matter what background, what obstacle, what struggle you are in. These are stories of courage, compassion, heroism, stories of suspense, love stories that my dad wrote as well. And there's stories of lessons learned about communism, stories of betrayal. And so it's a story that is a. Uh, relatable to all audience types, but outside of that, for myself and my my mom and for my family, this is our family story, and one that my kids, my great grandkids, what how they knew my father in his courage, in his resiliency, in terms of just coming to a new world and having to start over again.   Michael Hingson ** 55:27 What do you want people to take away from the story   Miki Ngyuen ** 55:32 history? Number one, in terms of the history of because there's a you know, if you don't, if you don't learn from history, you're going to make the same sort of mistakes again. And so, from history, what can we learn out of it, the lessons that we can learn out of it, the lessons of just how to overcome obstacles, dealing with, as you said, with fear, courage, lessons around being curious about the things around you, learning Education and as well as the lasting years, just lessons around teamwork and working with others, working with your community. So those are the kinds of things that we want to get across in this book.   Michael Hingson ** 56:36 What kind of lessons do you think your your father's memoir and yours, because you compiled it. What lessons do you think we all should take away from that, that we should use today? What, what should we be learning from this story?   Miki Ngyuen ** 56:56 Uh, lessons in terms of, uh, leadership, lessons in terms of how to handle yourself in crisis situation, lessons around working with others to overcome a particular obstacle or a challenge working, you know, with teammates. Wait may it be in a corporate environment, or maybe in a community or a setting, or many of those themes that in terms of just everyday life lessons and resiliency, yeah, yeah, many of those themes and lessons that I think is told through my father's experience and our family's experience, from that standpoint,   Michael Hingson ** 58:08 a question that comes to mind, really off the wall, is so it's now been 50 years. What is Vietnam like today? Do you know a   Miki Ngyuen ** 58:16 lot better than it was 50 years ago? I I've visited, not only visited, but lived there in 2016 2017 and life today a lot more prosperous than than in years past. And he continues to to be prosperous. And, you know   Michael Hingson ** 58:43 better from that standpoint, is it a communist country? It's still,   Miki Ngyuen ** 58:47 it's still a communist country today, one of the things that I did learn from the book and my dad was sharing is that in this ties in with the the the the Berlin Wall in the unraveling of communism the Soviet government back then, When the leadership in Vietnam saw that they loosened up many of their their their policies around that. So it is still communism today, but prosperous in a lot of ways, economically, and, you know, trading with with other countries. So, yeah, that's, that's, you know, that's how life is today in Vietnam, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 59:49 what final words and suggestions do you want to make? We've been doing this now for almost an hour, and it's, it's been as compelling as I think you thought it would. Be, and I imagined it would be, what kind of final remarks or thoughts do you want to leave for people to think about   Miki Ngyuen ** 1:00:09 that, whatever situation, whatever obstacles that you're going through at this moment, that there's always there's always choices and options, and the the the things that we talked about, you and I, Michael here, is just staying cool, staying level headed, staying calm through through challenges, and looking, you know, looking to work with others, looking for help, searching for help, and where you can help others as well. If it wasn't for Captain Paul Jacobs, compassion and humanity, our family wouldn't be here telling the story. And so these are the things that have helped us and our family in return. Look back over your shoulder to see if somebody else behind you would need help as well and offer that. So that's yeah, that's the some of the things that I want to at least share.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:23 There's there's a lot to be said for paying it forward as well as gratitude, and I think that you've exhibited all of that very well. And Miki, I want to thank you again for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful and enthralling, and I hope that everyone has enjoyed it. And I appreciate you being able to be here and tell the story, because it has to be still a challenge, even 50 years later, because you lived through it, but but you've learned how to live through it. And I think that's the issue. It's like with the World Trade Center, you learn how to deal with with it, and we both have learned to tell our stories, and I think that's so important. So I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening today. This has been wonderful. I hope you agree. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, and also wherever you're listening or watching, please give us a five star review. We value your reviews very highly, and we we love the good ones. So please give us a five star review, and as Walden did and Miki for you and everyone listening and watching, if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on our podcast, and you think anyone else who has a story to tell, love to hear it, love to meet them, love to get them on the podcast. So we really appreciate you reaching out again. You can email me at Michael h i@accessibe.com or go to our podcast web page, which is www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael Hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, you can reach us through that page as well. Hope that you'll listen to more episodes and that you'll come back if you're listening to us for the first time, and whatever you do, be well and be grateful for all that we have. That's the way it ought to be, and we can all be unstoppable if we choose to. So again, thank you for being here and Miki, thank you again for being here and being with us. Yeah,   Miki Ngyuen ** 1:03:32 thank you again, Michael, for the opportunity to share the story with you from your audience.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:41 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Author and liver of life absolutely describes our guest this episode, Pat Backley. As Pat says, she was an English woman until the age of 59 when she decided to become a Kiwi and moved full time to New Zealand. Pat grew up in a poor household, but she will tell you that she never regrets not having as much money as many of the people around her. However it happened, Pat grew up with a various curious oriented mind and a desire to explore the world.   During her life which today spans 73 years, Pat has held a number of jobs. She also has been married twice, but clearly really is not bitter over being divorced from both husbands, although the 2nd one simply wasn't ready to be as adventurous as Pat and live in New Zealand.   Pat wrote her first book at the age of 70. Over the past three years she has written eight books and has a number of future books inside her. As with other authors I have met over the years, Pat's characters essentially write their stories. Pat has plans and ideas, but the characters take over and create the stories.   I find Pat to be extremely articulate and personable to converse with. I think you too will enjoy her and what she has to say. So, sit back, or walk or do whatever you are doing, but get ready to hear a most enjoyable and thought-provoking conversation.       About the Guest:   Pat Backley is an English woman who, at the age of 59 , decided to become a Kiwi and she now lives in Auckland, New Zealand. Passionate about people and travelling the world, she has spent the last 73 years living a colourful and interesting life and her books reflect these passions.   She published her first book DAISY in late 2020, just before her 70th birthday, and now says that she intends to write till she dies!   She has published eight books and contributed to several anthologies, as well as writing articles and short stories for various magazines and has several more books in the pipeline.   Ways to connect Pat:   www.patbackley.com I am on Facebook and Instagram @patbackleyauthor. Also on X (Twitter) @Pat Backley Books. And LinkedIn @Pat Backley   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   ichael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and I want to welcome you to another edition of unstoppable mindset. And today we are going to chat with Pat Backley. Pat is a British woman, as she will tell you, but at the age of 59 which has now been some what, 1314, years ago, 13 years ago, she decided to become a kiwi and moved to New Zealand. We'll have to find out what brought that about. I've been to New Zealand. It's a fun place. I'd love to go back. But anyway, and of late, certainly much later in her life, Pat decided to become an author. She wrote her first book at the age of 70, and that is another fascinating story, I am sure. So we will delve into all of that, and we're going to grill Pat until she's tired of us. Pat, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Pat Backley ** 02:20 Thank you so much, Michael, I can assure you, I won't be tired of being grilled by you. I'm I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:29 we're really glad that you're here. What time is it in New Zealand right now? It's 10 o'clock   02:33 in the morning. Yeah, it's about what I thought.   Michael Hingson ** 02:38 So you're 21 hours ahead of us. Yeah, yes.   Pat Backley ** 02:42 And I have to say, I have to say that tomorrow is looking very good. You'll be glad to know, Oh, good.   Michael Hingson ** 02:49 Should be good. It Well, I'm glad to hear that it's going to look good, and it's actually going to warm up a little bit. Here. We're only getting up to about 65 Fahrenheit, so that's what about 17 Celsius or so. But tomorrow it's supposed to start getting a little bit warmer. We're approaching our winter as you approach your summer, which is kind of interesting.   Pat Backley ** 03:14 Yes, very interesting. When I first moved to New Zealand, that was one of the things I found very strange to have Christmas in the sunshine, because obviously I was, I was born with Christmas in the cook.   Michael Hingson ** 03:29 Yeah. Well, and you could have moved to Australia, where they use kangaroos to pull Santa slay.   Pat Backley ** 03:38 I could have done. I could have done. But Australia didn't have the same appeal for me as No, I   Michael Hingson ** 03:43 like New Zealand. I haven't been to Australia. I'd like to go, but I really enjoyed being in New Zealand. I've been to both the North and the South Island. I spent almost three weeks there, back in 2003 and gave something like 17 or 18 speaking opportunities in 15 days. And I only had one day that I had mostly off and that we spent. What is the the town on the South Island, the the tourist town, oh, Queenstown. Queenstown. Yeah, and so but that only lasted until about six that evening, and then I had to go off and speak again. But it was a lot of fun.   Pat Backley ** 04:28 You must have been exhausted because it's quite a lot of distance. I was I'm what I'm about to say is going to sound ridiculous now, because I've just been to America, and I know about your distances I was going to say, because you have a lot of driving distance between the towns you would have had to speak at. But then, as I was about to verbalize it, I thought, Pat, that's stupid. In America, the distances are far greater   Michael Hingson ** 04:51 well, and also a number of airplane flights between the North and the South Island to make it go faster as well.   Pat Backley ** 04:57 Yes, absolutely, yes. So. It was fun. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:01 why don't we start by you telling us a little bit kind of about the early Pat growing up and all that. We'll start with that. Okay,   Pat Backley ** 05:08 well, I, I was born in 1951 so it was just after the war, and England was still suffering from the effects of the war. You know, there was a lot of it was a bit of a gray place, so my parents couldn't afford to buy their own home, so I lived with my parent, my paternal grandparents, for the first three and a half years of my life. And of course, I had a lovely time because I had four adults doting on me. Then we moved out to the country. We were given a council house, which is like a state house. I'm not sure what they called in in the in America, you know, where the government provides them, right? Which, at that time was very acceptable, because there wasn't much housing, because it had all been bombed out, because we lived in London. So, so I grew up in the country. I didn't realize we were poor until I was 11, and went to secondary school, and suddenly I was the because I was quite bright, I was put in a grammar stream class, so I was suddenly with all these rich kids. One girl was driven to school in a chauffeur driven rolls, Royce and I lived in the little government house opposite the school, so everyone knew I was poor. So yeah, it was, it was tough. I would say it was tough my teenage years, but I   Michael Hingson ** 06:26 did, they teach you a lot about that. Oh, yeah,   Pat Backley ** 06:28 I got, I got, I mean, these days they would call it bullying, bullying. I just, I just, it was just, what my luck you know that I remember one time, and I actually did write about this in my memoirs, because it's still in my head after 60 odd years, one time I was the only kid in the class that went home for school lunches, and one because mum couldn't afford to pay for school lunches, so I used to go home because we lived just opposite. And I remember one day I came back to school and it was raining, so all the kids were back in the classroom early, and the teacher wasn't there yet. And there was this one girl whose name will live in my memory forever. She's etched on my soul, Angela Barrett. And she was standing at the front of the class, pretending to be the teacher, writing on the blackboard, and then wiping it off with this black cloth. And then she said, this is all this rag is fit for. And it was actually my school raincoat, which until then I'd been very proud of, but it was second hand, it'd be my cousins. And I can remember that afternoon thinking, I don't want to be here anymore. I hate it here. Everyone hates me. And I went home and I told mom, and I cried, and she said, Look, love, just because they've got more money than you doesn't make them any better people. And at 11, I could not see that at all like that. I just thought, why don't you just get more money? Why don't you buy me a nicer and go blah, blah, blah. But now in hindsight, I just think she that was the wisest thing she could say, because the time I rebelled, it made me realize that actually it's not an equal playing field in the world. You know, you're going to have people that are on this side and down at the bottom and up at the top, and you just have to grit your teeth and fight your way through it,   Michael Hingson ** 08:13 yeah, and, and the reality is, there are only so many things that you can truly control, and what you what you can control is how you dealt with that situation and situations like that. Yes, that's   Pat Backley ** 08:25 right. Um, and then I think I was a, I was definitely a product of the 60s. You know, we had all the lovely pop music and the short skirts and burning out bras and all that sort of stuff. But when I was just two weeks after my 20th birthday, I got married for the first time, which was ridiculous in hindsight, but at the time, you think you know everything when you're that age, don't you? My parents begged me not to marry him, but of course, I knew best, so that marriage lasted 14 years, and he wasn't always very kind. So then I left, then I was on my own for a beer. Then I had a living boyfriend, and I was desperate to have a child, Michael, but I'm not. I'm I'm old fashioned. I only would have a child if I had a husband. And so I didn't. I got married again when I was 41 and we had a child. I had a child when I was 43 my daughter, and that was that I thought life was going to be great. And then 26 years later, he decided he didn't love me anymore, didn't want to live in New Zealand anymore, and that was that so. So I kind of found myself living in New Zealand on my own, having we emigrated here together just before my 59th birthday. But anyway, I've picked up the pieces. It's been six years now, and because of COVID and because of him leaving me, that's how my life changed, really. And your daughter, my and my beloved daughter, my only child, yes, she's 30 now, and she is the love of my life. Yes, and I'm sorry. I've just realized I probably. Probably haven't answered your question very well. You must always pull me back, because I tend to get very excited and passionate and you know, don't necessarily toe the line with question answering. So forgive me, not   Michael Hingson ** 10:11 a problem. That's why this is a conversation and not a big deal. So is your daughter in New Zealand? She   Pat Backley ** 10:20 is now. When her dad she she was 16 when we came to New Zealand, so she did her last bit of school here, then she went to university in Auckland, and then she decided she wanted to do her master's degree back in London. So she went back to London, and then she got a job there, and she was away for five and a half years, which nearly broke my heart, but she's home now. She's been back four years, and she's got a lovely Kiwi boyfriend, and she's here to stay, so I'm   Michael Hingson ** 10:49 thrilled. What did she get? Her degree in art history. Ah, now, do you? Did you go to college? No, sadly,   Pat Backley ** 10:57 I because we were poor, I just had to leave school at 16, and so now I never went to college. I would have loved to, I would have liked to have been a teacher, but, you know, it wasn't to be and and I've had a great life, regardless of that.   Michael Hingson ** 11:13 So did you during all your married life and then the time in between and so on. What kind of work did you   Pat Backley ** 11:20 do? Well, I started work. I started work in the bank when I was 16. Barclays Bank was a really good place to work, so I spent 10 years working there. Then I lived for two years in the Fiji Islands and just did voluntary work back to the UK. My first husband and I started a furniture business, and then when I left him. Obviously I needed a job, because I didn't claim anything in the divorce. And so I got a job with bernardo's, the children's charity, as a general fundraiser. And that was great, because I just traveled all around the south of England supporting all the fundraising groups and things which I loved. And then I moved on to after a few years, I moved on to cancer research, um, again, as a fundraiser, but this time, setting up all their charity shops in the south, and that was a wonderful thing as well, because during the course of both those jobs, I met so many interesting people. You know, now that I'm an old gray haired lady, well, not actually Gray, because I color it, but now that I'm an old gray head lady. I feel very bad that the 35 year old me went to my new job with with Barnardos and sat there looking at these hundreds of gray head old ladies. And I thought, Oh, I'm too young to deal with all these old people. What on earth am I going to talk to them about? And of course, within a couple of days, I've realized that all these gray head old people were fabulous, that most of them had had really interesting, fascinating lives, and that I could learn an awful lot from them. So now the old gray head me looks back and feels very guilty at how I was at that age. But I guess that's what happens when you're young. You just think anyone over the age of 50 is is past it, don't you really well, but   Michael Hingson ** 13:03 you did learn a lot, I bet, from them, which is, oh, wow,   Pat Backley ** 13:07 oh, I learned so much, and I had so much fun, so much fun. Yeah, in fact, when I got married for the second time, a whole bunch of those ladies and a few of the men came to my, like, hen party the night before I got married, we went to the local, very smart hotel and had cocktails, and I just smiled to myself, thinking, oh, and I thought you were all so boring at the beginning, and actually, you're fabulous. So, yeah. So then, then my then I, then I stopped working, had my daughter, and I desperately didn't want to go back to my well paid job with cancer research. I wanted to be home with my baby because I was 43 I'd lost two children in the year before, with miscarriages, and so I stayed at home for four months, and then my husband said, oh, we need more money. You need to get a job. So I ended up doing having other people's children at my house, looking after them so doing like child minding. And that was when I look back. I don't know how I managed, because sometimes I had five under four year olds running around the house, which was quite a challenge. But we survived. I did that, I think, for seven years altogether, and oh, and in between that time, we came and lived in New Zealand for a year because my husband was a teacher, and he got a year's teaching exchange. So we basically swapped lives with a New Zealand teacher. He and his family moved into our house in England, and we moved into their house here in New Zealand. So for a whole year, we lived like a proper Kiwi family, which was wonderful. Lucy was only two, so it was the ideal time to do it. And I just, I just fell in love with New Zealand and desperately wanted to emigrate there. And then it took me 14 years to persuade him to get back here eventually. And in hindsight, I've probably pushed it too much, because. After he left, he said, I didn't like living in New Zealand. I didn't ever really settle there. So I have to hold up my hand and say, probably I persuaded him to do something that he really didn't want to do. But anyway, it's easy to be wise in hindsight, isn't it, as always, yeah. And then so we went back after our year here, we went back to the UK and we set up a business training and assessing construction workers, because the government realized, the UK government realized that, because they'd stopped formal apprenticeships some 20 odd years earlier, that there were now hundreds of 1000s of men working on construction sites who had all the necessary skills, but no paper qualifications. And so they wanted to redress that, but they realized that these men would not be willing to go back to college for three years to learn, learn their trade that they could already do. So they started this fast track program, and we used to go onto sites. We obviously, I had to get lots of qualifications and things to do it, trainers and assessors, qualifications. But then we used to go on two sites and watch the men working ask them loads of questions. We obviously had trade specific instructor assessors, and they could get that qualification that they would have taken three years to get going to college, they could then get in in a matter of six months or so, just by being observed doing their job. So it was a really, really good system, and it was very rewarding for me personally, because I used to go onto the sites and do the initial talks and whatever. And I've always liked men. I've always enjoyed their company, so I could cope with all the banter, you know, all the right, darling, what you're going to do after work, that kind of thing. I enjoyed all that. The bit I hated was wearing a hard hat, because they're very unflattering and they squash your hair do. But the most rewarding thing for me, we did that, that business for 20 years. The most rewarding thing was when a guy who I'd met on site who didn't even want to do it because he felt inadequate, which I later discovered was because he couldn't read or write, but he'd hidden it from all his colleagues. The most satisfying thing was once he'd passed, which obviously he sailed through. I sent him his certificate in the post, and the next day he phoned me, and he said, Pat. Thank you so much for that certificate. He said, it's the only thing I've ever had in my whole life that says I'm good at anything. He said, My wife is framing it and putting it on the living room wall. And that just made me cry, because I thought, this is, this is a man who's 45 who's gone through his whole life thinking he's stupid, and suddenly, just that one action can give him something to be proud of. So that was, I loved doing that, and we made that's how we made our money. For a few years, it was incredibly successful, and then it tailed off, and that's when we immigrated to New Zealand, and since I've been here, I've just basically been having a lovely time, doing a bit of voluntary work, lots of socializing and becoming an author. So   Michael Hingson ** 18:10 what, what attracted you to New Zealand? Why did you fall in love so much with New Zealand? Do you think   Pat Backley ** 18:19 it's a it's a hard question to answer. Michael, it was something deep inside me after I'd been here for a year, or when I'd been here probably only for a few weeks, I got this real feeling deep inside, inside me that I needed to be here. I just think sometimes places in the world draw you in for whatever reason. Who knows? You don't know if it's because perhaps you've got some association with it through an ancestor or I don't know, but I felt very, very drawn to New Zealand, and once we went back to the UK, we were back there for 14 years. Whenever I spoke to friends from New Zealand, whenever they'd phone me, I would end up in tears for hours. I want to go back to New Zealand. So it was a need rather than a desire, almost. And it's not something I've ever regretted. Even after he even after he abandoned me, we were back in England when he announced he didn't want to be married anymore, and he never came back to New Zealand. I just had to come back alone. Even then my friends in England were saying to me, oh, Pat, just stay in England. You know, we're all here. We'll, you know, we'll all be here for you. And I said, No, no, home is just New Zealand, even though I knew I was coming back all alone because Lucy was still living in London, I had, I've got no family here, so, but there was something that pulled me back.   Michael Hingson ** 19:45 I understand that I really enjoyed New Zealand a lot. And if there's when people ask me a place in the world that I regard as my favorite place to visit, New Zealand always comes out first, but I enjoy. Way wherever I go. I actually took my first trip to London in late October of this year. I was only there for a couple of days, but it was to do a speech. And, you know, it was pretty similar to being here. It just wasn't the same feeling as as being in New Zealand, which I had the opportunity to do, as I said before, for a little over three weeks. So it was really a lot of fun and and the the environment is just so different.   Pat Backley ** 20:28 Yes, I think New Zealand, I think one of the, I mean, obviously it's an incredibly beautiful country, but I think one of the main differences is that we, we've got a land mass pretty similar to the UK, but we we've only got like 5 million people, and the UK has got more than 70 million. And I think that's the thing. You know, the more people you try to cram into a small space, the more the social problems are, are enlarged, don't they? You know, we have exactly the same social problems here that are anywhere else in the world, but because our population is relatively small, it's not such a such such a huge feature of life, I think, yeah. Mm,   Michael Hingson ** 21:10 well, I haven't explained to everyone listening that Pat and I met through the RV Book Festival, virtual book festival, which both of us being authors, we spoke at and participated in, gosh, a little over a month ago now. Mm,   Pat Backley ** 21:28 yes, time flies, doesn't it does. It does.   Michael Hingson ** 21:32 And one of the things that I said, as I usually do when I get a chance to meet with people, is we'd love to have you all come on the podcast. And Pat is the second of the three people who were there. And so I'm glad that that that we got to do this. But let's talk about you being an author. So you started being an author. What, just three years ago or four years ago? Yes, yes. What? Yeah. Go ahead. Oh,   22:01 no, sorry, you carry on. Well, so   Michael Hingson ** 22:03 what just caused you to decide that you're going to try to write a book?   Pat Backley ** 22:09 Okay? Well, when I was a little girl, I had a massive list of things I wanted to be when I was growing up, I wanted to be a nurse, a missionary, a writer, a teacher, a ballerina. They were all my that was my list. So when I was about eight, I edited my first magazine. Is I have one limited copy of it. It was a limited, very limited edition. It only lasted one, one time. But so I guess probably I've always had that desire deep inside me, but because of circumstances, and not coming from, you know, a very privileged background, it meant that I didn't have the opportunity. But in the days when we used to write letters, I always love to write long, long letters to all my friends, my family. And when I lived in Fiji for two years, I wrote, there was no other way of communicating with my parents. They had no telephone. So for two years, I wrote them letters and when my when, when they died, and I had to clear out their house, I found this enormous pile of blue Air Mail, letters that I'd written to my parents over a two year period. They'd kept every single one. So I think I'd always loved writing, but it never occurred to me that I would ever have the chance to write a book. And then we get to COVID, and we, here in New Zealand, went into lockdown on the day of my 69th birthday. It was a beautifully sunny day, and I was all alone because Lucy was in England, and I made myself chocolate brownies, stuck a candle in it, sat in the garden and cried because my marriage was over. My daughter was gone. We had COVID. There were, you know, there were lots of things to cry about. And I then spent the next three weeks lying on my sofa watching rubbish on Netflix, eating too much chocolate, drinking too much red wine. And then I thought to myself, Pat, this is ridiculous. This could go on for a few more weeks, because at the time, we thought COVID was going to be quite short lived, didn't we, and I thought, why don't you do something practical? Why don't you write a book? So I just got out some paper and pen and started writing, and stayed up, probably mostly day and night, for two weeks, and then within two weeks, my first book, Daisy was done, and that was that really the rest is history. Since then I have so I published it self. Published it just before my 70th birthday, and in the three years since then, I've written and published eight more. Contributed to five anthologies, written a little Yes, so yeah, written articles for magazines and been interviewed by lovely people like you, and the rest is history. Are you alright? Have I sent you to sleep? Talking?   Michael Hingson ** 24:58 No, I. Well, I'm just listening. I didn't know whether you were done. You know, it's, it's fascinating to to listen to the story and to hear you talk about what, what brought you to it, what made you decide what kind of books to write. I   Pat Backley ** 25:18 don't think I really did decide, um, my daughter for my birth, for the previous Christmas, had sent me a very dry little textbook, which she knew I love, called, I can't think exactly what it's called, something like the history of architecture, of council houses in the UK, something very boring like that. And it was, it was basically a textbook, because I love architecture as well. It was basically a textbook with just a few pictures in so I'd kind of put it on my coffee table, but not but ignored it. You know how you do when there's books? You know, you should, you kind of don't get around to it. So at the beginning of COVID, I picked it up one day, or a couple of days before I started writing, I picked it up, and within five minutes, I was enthralled. I got out post it notes. I'd stuck those all over little bits and written quotes, and I think that was kind of an inspiration. So I expected the book to be more about, have more of a theme of architecture. And in fact, the book doesn't. There is one guy who becomes an architect in it towards the end. But I think that kind of just just pushed something in my head into gear, because I firmly believe Michael. I mean, they always say that everyone has a book inside them, and I, when I do my talks now, I'm often photographed at a very funny stage where I'm going like this, because I'm just saying how somebody's it feels as though somebody's taken off the top of my head, and 70 years worth of words are just flying out. Because I find writing incredibly easy. The first book Daisy wrote itself pretty much, you know, I just kind of had an idea and and I wrote down a few things about possible people, and then they just wrote their own story, really, which I'm, you know, I know, as an author, you will understand that. And I would say, for all my other books, I've had an idea, but they've kind of, they've kind of written themselves, themselves   Michael Hingson ** 27:17 as well. Yeah. Well, you know, you talk about textbooks. I've been an advocate for some time about the concept that people should rewrite textbooks or make textbooks different than they are, and technical manuals, the same way, as you said, they're very boring and and they don't need to be in textbooks could draw people in a lot more than they than they do. For example, my master's degree is in physics, and when you're looking at a physics textbook, there are lots of mathematical equations and so on, and that's fine, but think of how much more interesting the book might be, and think of how much more you might draw the interest of people to the science by including in the book some stories about the the author. Their their, I don't want to necessarily say adventures, but their experience is why they became a physicist, why they do what they do, and bringing some humanity to the textbook, I think would make a significant difference to textbooks in general, but we don't see that, because people just want to get the facts out there.   Pat Backley ** 28:32 I couldn't agree more. I absolutely, totally agree. When I was at school, I hated doing research because it was boring. You had to learn the names of all the kings of England, and King, you know, Henry, the eighth wives, and when their heads got chopped off and all that stuff. And apart from the really scandalous bits, I wasn't really interested. But now I absolutely adore research. I discovered that my first book, Daisy is is a historical fiction, and so I had to do lots of research to make sure it was accurate, because you you know, if you write something in a book and it's not right, people are going to pick holes in it. I mean, they're going to pick holes in your work anyway, so you don't want to give them extra ammunition, right? But I discovered that I absolutely loved doing research. And of course, these days it's so easy because you just click a button on your computer and you can find out what cold scuttles were used in 1871 whereas in my youth, we had to trudge to the library get out all the encyclopedias. And so because of I've discovered that love of research, all my all my novels, are now historical because it's almost it gives me an excuse to go researching and finding out stuff. So it's opened up a whole new world to me, Michael and I just realized now that that expression education is wasted on the young is so true, because now in my seven. Is I am so open to learning new things, whereas in my teens, I was bored to death and just wanted to go home and play.   Michael Hingson ** 30:09 So what was Daisy about? Oh, well,   Pat Backley ** 30:11 Daisy, I'll just, I'll just read you a little bit on the back to give you an idea. Um, Daisy is a gentle family saga spanning almost 100 years, from 1887 to 1974 It is set in Alabama, Harlem and London, and incorporate some of the evils of society, poverty, racism and snobbery, as well as some of the greatest that life has to offer, family, friendship and love and a couple of quotes, being born poor was a scar that never faded, and she had never experienced racial hatred first hand, so had no real idea of how it could erode a person's whole life. So basically, it's just a story of a young woman born in the slums of London and a young man born into an affluent lifestyle on an Alabama plantation in 1871 and how their lives interwove, they never got together, but, you know, or all their extended people did, so it's right, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 31:14 right. Well, the thing about about that kind of a story is, again, it draws you in. I I would would say something slightly different. Being poor is a scar that that never fades. On the other hand, being poor also gave you, or would give Daisy the life that she had, which was, was so I would suspect so very invaluable to her overall life experiences.   Pat Backley ** 31:50 Yes, absolutely yes. And her life changes quite dramatically midway because of the people she meets. Yeah, it's I, it was in, it's interesting, because sometimes I reread it and I just think, Wow, this is quite a good story. And I then I feel bad for thinking that about my own writing, but I've written the second Daisy, which is obviously the follow up. And then I thought, actually I and then I wrote a little travel book and my life story and whatever. And then I thought, Oh, I really miss doing research. Perhaps I could write about my own family, my own ancestors. So I then wrote the ancestors series. I've done three in it, and wrote about my paternal grandparents, my maternal grandparents and my own parents. I've just published that book about them that was glorious, but very emotive, because obviously I knew certain bits about them. But delving back further and further into the family histories, you discover lots of things and very emotional to write, yeah, particularly one about my parents, because your parents are just your mom and dad, aren't they? You kind of don't think of them really, as people in their own right, but when you start writing their life story, you're living life through their shoes and and it, yeah, it made me very emotional. I cried every day writing my parents story, but now I'm really glad I did it, because it's kind of honored, honored their lives, and also it means they'll never die their even their photographs are on the cover. And my daughter said that she cried all the way reading it, and she said, Mom, it was wonderful, because I hardly knew them. You know, they died when she was quite young. Yeah, she's but now I understand, yeah, so because she's had, you know, she's had a reasonably nice upbringing. She hasn't had the upbringing that they had, or even I had. So, yeah, I think I try. I've become a bit I've become a bit of a pain now, because everyone I meet, I say, like last week, I did a talk at the local genealogy society, and I said to them, please write your story down or record it some way. Because once you die, your story dies with you, no one knows your life as well as you do. So, yeah, yeah. But I just love research. So now I'm thinking, oh, what else can I write about and do some research? I write about people. Michael, people are my passion. I love people and and ordinary people. I don't need to write about, you know, worthy things people, right?   Michael Hingson ** 34:24 But the other part about it is that you got, as you write about your parents, I'll bet you got to know them better, too, and it helps you understand the kind of life you had and they had. And I still bet overall, you could talk about wealth and all that, but you wouldn't trade your life for anything because it made you who you are today. Abs,   Pat Backley ** 34:49 you're absolutely right, and yes, you're right. Writing about their stories and all that they went through, it was Yeah. Just made me really, really realize that they were even. Special people than I knew they were. But no, I wouldn't trade anything. I mean, I had a wonderfully happy childhood, if you put aside that silly bit of bully in that, you know, I tend to know for the years. But, yeah, we I, I because I didn't know, really, that I got snippets of there being other kind of lives like, you know, I had rich friends who had lots of clothes, traveling all the time and stuff, but basically, my life was just my little nuclear family. In our little we had a little two bedroom house for six of us, and that was my life. We were very happy. There were very rarely raised voices, and that's why I didn't cope very well in my first marriage, when my husband, my first husband, suddenly showed me that he had a rather violent temper because I didn't know how to handle it, because I had never experienced that before in my whole life. So I in that way, I wasn't prepared. But yeah, I will always be grateful to my parents, because with very little, they gave us all a very happy childhood.   Michael Hingson ** 36:05 Well, so you started writing at the age of 70. Do you wish that you had started writing earlier? Or did you think about that? I   Pat Backley ** 36:17 think about it. I don't really, because I think I had to live through everything I've lived through get to the point now of being able to write in the way I do. And also, yeah, no, I don't really. I mean, the only thing I think is, oh, I hope I don't die before I before I get everything written, I want to write. That's my only thing. But no, I I've learned, Michael, not to regret anything in life, because if you do, the only person it hurts is yourself. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 36:47 because you are who you are, because of your life   Pat Backley ** 36:51 exactly, and you would understand that better than most. I mean, you cope so well with with being blind, which is absolutely remarkable, because most of us, if we suddenly can't see and need to wear a stronger pair of glasses, we just go down, you know, go down into a depressive state. So you're a wonderful beacon of hope. I think for an awful lot of people, of course,   Michael Hingson ** 37:15 the issue, and using that as an example, the issue is that you don't know anything about being blind or blindness, and people generally don't, and they make a lot of assumptions that are not necessarily true, but it is again, the lives that they live, and the reality is there's nothing wrong with being blind. We live in a world where most people are light dependent, that is, they can see. But the reality is, of course, in the perspective I try to oftentimes nowadays, to convey to people, is light dependence is just as much a disability as being light independent or blind, because as soon as the lights go out, you lose power, and if you don't have an immediate light source. You're in a world of hurt. And we really should think of disability as a characteristic that everyone has, except it manifests itself differently for different people. But unfortunately, people aren't ready to do that. And the reasons for bringing up the concept in that way is that I think that because disability is really a characteristic everyone has, it is also a way to help level the playing field. And that's something that is so hard to get people to do, because they really think, well, you're blind, you're not as good as I   Pat Backley ** 38:37 Oh, wow. Very profound. I love talking to you. Michael, this is fascinating stuff. Fascinating. I had, I had a little niece. Sadly, she died when she was 14. She had a dreadful genetic disease called battens, but she went blind for the last couple of years. It broke my heart. It broke my heart, but she seemed to just deal with it somehow. You know, it's, I guess we all get the strengths we need at the times we need them. Do you think   Michael Hingson ** 39:04 I think, I think that's true, or we can if, long as we accept it. But the reality is that, of course, she lost her her eyesight, but if she developed an attitude that I have other things that are available to me, so I'm going to be fine, then she would be fine. Yes,   Pat Backley ** 39:23 yeah, yeah. I mean, sadly, she lost all her faculties. She couldn't talk. She so everything went but, but it was when her eyes went and she was still able to understand, that was the hardest thing. So I remember years ago when I worked in Barclays Bank, when I was quite in my 20s, and we were, I worked in a big branch at the time, and we had a blind telephonist, because in those days, back in the 60s, I think it was kind of what they did. It was when there were all those great big telephonic boards, you know, press all the buttons. And we had a guy called Peter, and he had. His dog was called penny, and our branch was on the corner of this huge, wide road in a place called Kingston, just outside London. And to cross the road, there were like six lanes of traffic, and it was really, really dangerous. And we would come out of work in the afternoon, and we'd all be standing there hesitant to cross the road, and Peter would suddenly just march across the road with Penny, and we'd all be standing there in awe. And one day I crossed with I've got brave, and I crossed over with him, and we got to the other side, and I said, Peter, how can you do that? He said, Oh, well. He said, It's always useful being blind, because traffic feels sorry for you, so they all kind of slow down anyway. He said, But, but. He said, But Penny leads me. He said, she just, she just, she just knows it's fine, so she just the dog just, just takes me over. I was fascinated, but he had just recently married about two years earlier he'd been, he'd been fully sighted till he was 11, and then he and some friends were messing about on the railway lines, and he fell over and bashed his head, and he went blind. So he had been sighted and but now he he was married, he had a little baby, and I said, Oh, Peter, can you actually see your baby, or do you just kind of have to feel the outline? He said, Oh no. He said, I got a tiny, tiny bit of vision. He said, so I can see the shape of the baby. And I just always remember thinking you're so brave. That was, that was what I thought. I just felt he was so brave. Well, just remember   Michael Hingson ** 41:27 the dictionary, you know? Well, just remember the dictionary defines to see is to perceive. It doesn't necessarily need to be with the eyes and and there's so many other senses that give us this a lot of information as well. For me, I don't want my dog to decide when we cross the street in general, unless the dog refuses to go because there's a hybrid car or something coming that I don't hear. But it's my job to know when to go and and I know how to do that, and so I can listen for the traffic flow and and, and go accordingly. And at the same time, if I then tell the dog to go forward and the dog won't go my immediate assumption is there's a reason for that, and and, and usually there is because the dog and I have developed that kind of a relationship where the dog knows it's my job to tell the dog where to go, and it's the dog's job to make sure that we get there safely. It's a very close knit team. It's as close knit of a team as you can imagine, and it's what it's really all about. So the dog and I each do our jobs, and when we do them correctly together, what a wonderful world. It becomes   Pat Backley ** 42:47 fabulous. And it obviously works because you're still standing, you're still here,   Michael Hingson ** 42:54 and my and my dog is over here, breathing very deeply, asleep. Oh, so you you stick with historical fiction. Have you ever thought of writing other kinds of books, like adventures or novels or that are not historic in nature, fantasy or any of those? I   Pat Backley ** 43:17 don't think I've got the right brain set to do fantasy or horror or crime. I, I I'm writing historical because I've discovered a great love for it, but I've also, I also have a great love for travel. So I wrote a little travel book, and I've just done a big trip, so I'm going to write another travel book, because that's another great love I wrote. I wrote my memoirs, which was very satisfying, you know, to write my own story down so it's there forever, if you like. And I also wrote a little book called The abandoned wives handbook, which I didn't want to write. I just kept putting it off. And then one day, I woke up at three in the morning and this voice saying to me, Pat, you have to write this book to help other people. So I just wrote this. I cried all the time. Writing it, as you've probably deduced, I'm a great crier. I think crying is is the best way of getting stress out of your system, out of my system. So I wrote this book. It's just a tiny little book that you can pop into a handbag called the abandoned wives handbook. And I've just made it like a little dictionary. I call it a dictionary of distress, and it's just to I'll just just briefly read you the backseat and understand the pain of abandonment is huge. The partner you loved and cherished for so many years has decided you are no longer required past your sell by date of no use to them anymore, so tossed out like a piece of garbage, abandoned with barely a backward glance, in an attempt to keep this a gentle, light hearted read, each chapter is divided into letters of the alphabet, rather like a dictionary of distress, something you can dip into at any time. I am not an expert, merely someone who has survived one of life's great traumas and has come through. Is a stronger, more resilient person, so I didn't want to write it. I hated doing it. I've, I published it, and it's, ironically, one of my best selling books people buy   Michael Hingson ** 45:13 all the time. Do you publish your own books, or do you have a publisher? I   Pat Backley ** 45:17 have, I have done till this point, Michael, but simply because I'm feeling I'm too old to hang around waiting to get noticed. But I have just written, I have just finished another book, which I I just feel might be slightly more commercial, so I may try seeing if I can get an agent for that. But I will probably only try one or two, and then if they say no, I'll just give up and self publish. The only thing against self publishing for me now is that it because I want to do it properly. You know, I pay an editor, I pay a cover designer, I pay a formatter. It becomes quite expensive to pay people. So that's my that's my only downside. But I do like to be totally in control. You know, I can choose my own covers. I can choose when it's published. I can choose what the content is. And if you go with a traditional publisher, you often lose the ability to have the same control   Michael Hingson ** 46:11 well, or you you negotiate, but, but, yeah, I understand what you're saying. I also have to say I understand fully this whole concept of abandonment. When my seventh guide dog Africa retired, and she retired because she wasn't seeing well and she was slowing down, so I knew it was time to get a new guide dog. So it was February 9 of 2018, and we lived here, and her puppy raiser, the people who raised her, they call them, I think, in New Zealand, puppy walkers, but they live about 140 miles south, or about 120 miles in a town called Carlsbad. And they came and I, and I said that they could have Africa, and the only reason I gave her up was because we already had my wife's service dog and a cat, and I was going to get another dog, and Karen wasn't really going to be able to handle taking care of two dogs and a cat when I traveled to speak, so we agreed that Africa could go live with the bill And Peggy, and they came and picked her up, and she walked out the door without a backward glance. I was abandoned.   47:26 Oh, that's awful,   Michael Hingson ** 47:28 yeah. Well, we actually, we went. We went down and visited her several times. She was just excited. No, she's, she was a great dog. And, yes, yeah, you know. And they got to have her for two years before she passed. But she was, she was a good dog and and she had a good life. And I can't complain a bit, but it's fun to tease about how obviously we have abandoning issues here. Yes, yeah.   Pat Backley ** 47:53 And I think that's the secret in life, Michael, to always find something to be happy about and smile about, because life can be very tough, can't it? I mean, you know, it's, yeah, life is tough. And so I think if we don't find, try and seek a little joy, we might as well all give up, you know, yeah, yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 48:14 there's no need to do that. I mean, God put us on this earth to live an adventure. And life is an adventure,   48:21 absolutely,   Michael Hingson ** 48:22 no matter what we do. Yes,   48:25 absolutely. Well, how do you   Michael Hingson ** 48:26 develop your characters? I mean, you're writing historical fiction, so you're you're using history and and periods of time as the the setting for your books, but you're creating your own characters primarily, I gather,   Pat Backley ** 48:39 yes, yes. To be honest, in my head, when I start writing, I almost have an exact picture of my characters. I know exactly what they look like. I mean, if I was to, if I was to suddenly get a film offer, I could easily say how these people should look, because I they're real for for example, a few months after I oh no, maybe a year or so after I published Daisy, I was talking to my daughter one day, and I just said, Oh, do you remember when Theo did whatever? And she looked me straight in the eye, and she said, Mum, I don't know your characters as well as you do. And I just, we both burst out laughing, because to me, they're real people. You know, I I can picture them. I know exactly what they look like. And I think even when I start a new book in my head, I already know what my characters look like. They may not as the plot goes on, behave in the way I want them to, but I know how I know who they are. I know how they how they look. Yeah, they're going   Michael Hingson ** 49:43 to write the book and they're going to tell you what you need to do. Yeah, totally. But you use, but you use, I assume, real places in your books. I always   Pat Backley ** 49:51 use real places, always Yeah, and always places I know, because I think you can write more authentically then, like in days. I wrote about Harlem and Alabama and New York and London, or not New York in that one, but London and because I know all those places, I've been there and you know, they're, they're familiar to me, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 50:13 yeah. So you, you, you let them do what they do, and out comes the book.   Pat Backley ** 50:21 Absolutely, that's right, yes, yeah, have you   Michael Hingson ** 50:25 written any yet in New Zealand?   Pat Backley ** 50:29 You mean, based in New Zealand? The funny thing is, Michael, being an immigrant is and I have spoken to lots of other immigrants about this. In fact, I co authored a book in lockdown called the warrior women project, a sisterhood of immigrant women, which is based in the States. And all the other women are are living in the States, except me, and I caught up with them when I came over to the states. Couple of months ago, we had a reunion, met for the first time, which was wonderful, but we all said, once you are an immigrant, you never truly belong anywhere. You know, when I go, I always feel a little bit of an outsider here. I've been here 14 years now, and that's nobody's that's nothing anybody does. That's just my feeling deep inside. I go back to England, and I feel like an outsider. I used to live in Fiji when I was in my 20s, and then I had a house there. Until my divorce, I go back there, and I've got a lot of extended friend family there, I go back there, and I always feel like an a bit of an outsider. So I think that's the price you pay for wanting a life less ordinary. You know, you somehow become like a little bit of a floating person. And I don't to answer your question, I don't really feel qualified to write about New Zealand. Obviously, I talk about it in my travel book and I talk about different places, but to base the whole story here, I don't feel qualified. There are enough fabulous New Zealand authors who are doing that already, who've been born here, who understand the country, who, you know, who, yeah, they're   Michael Hingson ** 52:07 just at the same time you wrote Daisy, which took place in part in Alabama. How much time did you spend, you know? So it may be, it may be something in the future where a character will pop out and say, I want to be in New Zealand, but that's something to look at.   Pat Backley ** 52:23 Yes, I love it when somebody like you calls me out on my own, my own things, because you're absolutely right. I That's That was a silly argument to say. I don't know it enough. So thank you for that. You've made me rethink. That's good.   Michael Hingson ** 52:37 Well, so I gather that when you're writing, you think you have the plot planned out, or you you try to have the plot planned out, but it doesn't necessarily go the way you plan it. Does it?   Pat Backley ** 52:49 No, not at all. I mean, I know roughly what I want to say. I think what I'm definitely, definitely know what I want to do is get certain little messages across. And that doesn't matter what my characters do, because I can weave that in, like in Daisy. I wanted to get across that slavery was dreadful, and racism is dreadful, and the way black people were treated when they went to England in the 1950s was dreadful. So I managed to we, and that's and that's snobbishness and stuff is dreadful. So I managed to always weave those kind of themes into my books. And apparently, it has been said by reviewers that I do it so well that people it just makes people think about what that how they think how Yeah, so, so those main themes, if you like, I managed to weave into my stories, regardless of how badly my characters behave.   Michael Hingson ** 53:45 So when you're writing, are you pretty disciplined? Do you have certain times that you write, or do you just sit down and write till you're ready to stop for the day? Or what I   Pat Backley ** 53:56 am very non disciplined, undisciplined, whatever the term is supposed to be. I have great intentions. I think, right, I'm going to spend tomorrow writing. I'll be at my desk by eight o'clock, and I'll sit little five. And then at nine o'clock, I get up to go make a cup of coffee. And at 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock, I'm out weeding the garden, and then I might come back in and do a little bit, and then I go off and do something else. So I am dreadfully undisciplined, but I work really well to deadlines. Just before I went away on my big trip in September, I was part way through a book, probably a third way through writing a new book, and I woke up one day and I thought, right, I'm going to get that book finished before I go. I had three weeks left. In that three weeks, I had masses of appointments. I had to sort out my wardrobe, which, as a woman, is a huge problem, one that you've probably never had, but you know, you have to decide what goes with what and how many dresses you should take, and it's a huge issue for a lot of women. So I had a lot of jobs to do in that three. Weeks instead of which, I decided to set myself as self imposed time to get the book finished. Crazy. Just, I mean, why? Why? Why crazy?   Michael Hingson ** 55:09 And did you the day   Pat Backley ** 55:11 before? There you are. I was so proud of myself because I just that was it. I decided I and what I did to make myself accountable, I actually put a post on Facebook and Instagram saying, why, and all these little yellow post it notes, and I'd written on their pack suitcase, Do this, do this, do this. And so I just said to everyone that I'd given myself this self pointed deadline so I had made myself publicly accountable. If I hadn't done that, I probably wouldn't have finished it, but I find, for me, that's the best way of disciplining myself is to have a deadline with everything in life, really, yeah. But the   Michael Hingson ** 55:49 other part about it is, even when you're as you would put it, being undisciplined, your brain is still working on the book, and the characters are are mulling things over, so it does pop out. Oh, totally,   Pat Backley ** 56:00 totally. And I end up with lots of little scrappy notes all over the house, you know, where I've just grabbed a piece of paper and written down something. And then, of course, I have to gather them all together. And when I was in the States recently, I spent two months, and I've got scrap I was doing a lot of research, and I've got scrappy notes everywhere. So I've now got to try and pull those all together while my brain still remembers what they were meant to be, you know, like lady in red dress in New Orleans. Well, what does that really mean? So, right? I'm, I'm my own worst enemy in many ways, but,   Michael Hingson ** 56:37 but she thought, and so you went through it exactly, exactly, yeah, that's okay. Where did you travel in September?   Pat Backley ** 56:45 I went to Atlanta first to meet up with these warrior women, which was truly fabulous. Then I went to New Orleans, and my friend who lives in Alabama, picked me up, and we went to New Orleans, and then we drove back to Alabama. She lives in Huntsville. So I was there for a week and was doing lots of research, because Daisy is partly based right and then we then she drove me back to Nashville, and I flew to New York, where I was meeting some friends from New Zealand who lived there six months of the year. So I spent six days there and went to Harlem for more research and stuff like that, and then flew to Canada, to Toronto, where two friends, a lady I'd met when we had our daughters together, and her daughter, they now live in France. They flew from France, met me in Toronto, we hired the biggest SUV I've ever seen in my life, and we drove across Canada for three weeks, which was such fun, such fun. And then I came home. So I've got millions of scrappy notes that I need to pull together to write a travel book and to use as inspiration for my novels.   Michael Hingson ** 58:01 So you so you're going to write another travel book? I   58:05 am going to write another travel book. Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 58:09 And the the abandoned wives handbook, that's kind of a self help book. That's a self help book, yes, yeah. Just you think you'll write another one of   Pat Backley ** 58:17 those? No, no, I'm done with that one's enough of those, huh? Yeah, that's right. I'm not an expert, Michael and the I just, I just, but the funny thing is, when I do talks, I always talk about all my books. And a few weeks ago, I was talking at this very smart meeting of ex business people, both ladies and gentlemen, and they were all over 60. Um, so quite a conservative audience. And at the end, or towards the end, I just mentioned this abandoned Wise Book, I tend to skim over it. I don't really, I don't really talk about it too much unless the audience is particularly relevant. But I just said to them, oh, and this is my little book. And someone said, Oh, could you read us an excerpt from it? So I said, Okay, I'll just open the book at random. And I opened the book and the title, what you won't be able to see here, the title of that chapter was K for kill. And I thought, no, no, I don't want to read about kill front of this audience. So I just made a joke of it and and I'll just read it to you, because it will make you laugh, as I have said previously under Section indecisive. You may, in your darkest moments, think about hurting him. This is not really a great idea, as you would undoubtedly be caught and end up in prison. Yeah, you so, you know, I and then I went on a bit more, but, you know, it's some yeah and no, I'm done with that book. I've, I've done my bit for humanity with that. It seems to be helping a lot of people. So that's that's enough.   Michael Hingson ** 59:45 Yeah, I would never make a good criminal, because I know I'd be caught and and I don't know how to keep from getting caught, and frankly, don't care about trying to get worry about getting caught or not getting caught. It's easier just not to be a criminal. So it works out fine. So. Yes,   1:00:00 exactly. Yeah, me too. Me too. So much   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:02 easier. So much easier. Absolutely, absolutely yes. Well, if people want to reach out to you and maybe learn a little bit more about you or meet you, how do they do that? Okay,   Pat Backley ** 1:00:12 well, my website is just patch back league com, so it's very easy. Um, I'm Can you spell that please? Yes, yes, of course, P, A, T, B, A, C, K, L, E, y.com.com, yeah, and I'm on all the channels, as you know, Facebook and Instagram and x and LinkedIn and stuff as Pat Backley author or pat Backley books. And my books are all available from Amazon, all the online retailers, Barnes and Noble stuff like that, as ebooks or paperbacks, or if someone desperately wanted a signed copy, I'm very happy to send them a signed copy, and you can get them from you can request them from libraries.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:59 Have you? Have you thought about making any of them an audio format?   Pat Backley ** 1:01:05 I have someone's. A few people have suggested that this year, when I've been doing talks, they've come up to me afterwards, and yes, I think I'm going to, as long as it's not too costly, because at the moment, my budget is extremely limited, but I'm going to do them myself, because everyone feels that my books will be come come across better in my own voice so well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:25 and you read well. So I think that makes a lot of sense to consider.   Pat Backley ** 1:01:29 Thank you, Michael, that's very kind of you. Well, Pat,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:33 this has been fun, and I've enjoyed it. I've learned a lot of things as well, and I'm and I'm glad that we've had this chance. We need to do it again. When are you going to start a podcast?   Pat Backley ** 1:01:47 Well, funny, you should say that I've decided I'm going to I'm going to just dip my toes in very gently. I'm going to start it in the new year, and I'm going to call it and this makes everyone who knows me laugh. I'm going to call it just 10 minutes with Pat Backley. And everyone has said, Oh, don't be ridiculous. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:05 I agree, 10   Pat Backley ** 1:02:06 minutes, but I thought it's a way of just gently edging in. And then if people enjoy listening to me, they might want to listen for longer after a while. But I thought initially, just 10 minutes, little snippets, if they like what they hear, they might come back.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:21 They'll come back. Oh, I don't think there would be a problem. Well, if you, if you ever need a guest to come and spend at least 10 minutes, just let me know. I   Pat Backley ** 1:02:30 certainly shall. I have absolutely loved talking to you. Michael, thank you so much for inviting me as well. This is a very joyful morning. I've really loved it. Thank you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:39 this has been fun, and I want to thank all of you for listening. I hope you've enjoyed it and reach out to Pat. I'm sure she would love to communicate with you, and maybe in some way, you'll end up in a book, which is always a nice, good thing to think about as well. I'd love to hear what you think about our podcast today. So please feel free to email me. Michael, h, i, m, I, C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is at w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O n.com/podcast, wherever You're listening. We would really appreciate it if you would give us a five star rating. And we we value that. We value your thoughts and input. Pat for you and all of you listening. If you know an

On this episode I have the pleasure to talk with Kathi Sohn who I met just two weeks ago at the latest Podapalooza event. Kathi, as it turns out, is quite knowledgeable and fascinating on many levels. Kathi grew up in Rhode Island. She describes herself as a shy child who had been adopted. While in her mother's womb, her mother tried to conduct a self-abortion when Kathi was six months along. I tell you about this because that fact and others are quite relevant to Kathi's story. Kathi will tell us that at some level we have memories that go back to even before we are born. Science supports this and it is one of the concepts that Kathi's late husband utilized in creating what he calls the “body memory process”.   Kathi graduated from high school and went to college. As you will learn, over time Kathi secured several college degrees and even became a certified nurse. At some point she joined the army. That story is best told by her. Suffice it to say that Kathi says that joining the army on the advice of her adopted father was one of the best moves she could have made. From her four years in the military she learned commitment, responsibility and discipline.   After the army, Kathi went to work for the Department of Defense and at some point she met and married her husband David. Again, a story better told by Kathi.   For many years Kathi and David lived in Maryland. Eventually they moved to Alabama.   Kathi will tell us about the work David conducted to develop the “body memory process” which he used to help many overcome fears and life challenges. After David's death in 2019 Kathi decided to retire from the Department of Defense after 36 years and then to continue the work David had begun regarding the body memory process which is the discovery and release of self-limiting beliefs (vows) we all create in early childhood. Today she is a coach and she is an accomplished author. Her book about the body memory process is entitled, “You Made It Up, Now Stop Believing It, which was released in 2023. It has reached twice bestseller status on Amazon Kindle.   Our conversation ranges far and wide about medicine, our limiting beliefs and how to deal with our limitations using the body memory process. I think you will like what Kathi has to say. She has some good nuggets of wisdom we all can use.       About the Guest:   In 2020, Kathi Sohn retired from her first career as a senior manager after 36 years with the Department of Defense. When Kathi lost her beloved husband David in 2019, she decided  to devote her life to sharing the powerful work he created – the Body Memory Process, which is the discovery and release of self-limiting beliefs (vows) we all create in early childhood.   Kathi wrote a book on the work, You Made It Up, Now Stop Believing It, which was released in 2023 and it has twice reached bestseller status on Amazon Kindle. This information-packed book not only gives the reader the entire childhood vow discovery and release processes, but also has practical exercises for increasing self-awareness and fascinating stories of real people who experienced personal transformation by using the Body Memory Process.   Kathi is also a speaker and coach, sharing as broadly as possible the importance of healing childhood wounds. She is dedicated to mitigating the cycle of inter-generational trauma.   Ways to connect Kathi:   WEBSITE: https://kathisohn.com FREE GIFT: https://bodymemoryprocess.com/free-gift/ FREE PARENT GUIDE: https://coaching.kathisohn.com/freeparentguide "RESILIENT TEEN": https://coaching.kathisohn.com/resilientteen PURCHASE BOOK WITH FREE GIFTS: https://youmadeitupbook.com/bonuses FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/bodymemoryprocess/ INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/kathi.sohn/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/kat_sohn LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathisohn/ YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC9R0noiiPPWf1QjzrEdafw           https://linktr.ee/MCAnime   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone. I am your host, Mike Hingson, and welcome once again to another episode of unstoppable mindset today. Once again, as we've done a few times already in the last few weeks, we have the opportunity and joy to interview, well, not interview, but talk with someone who I met at our recent patapalooza Number 12 event, and today we get to talk to Kathi Sohn Kathi was at podapalooza. Pat Kathi has a lot of things going for her, and she'll tell us all about all of that. She had a long career with the Department of Defense, and if we ask any questions about that, then probably we'll all have to disappear. So we won't, we won't go into too much detail, or we'll have to eliminate you somehow. But in 2020 she left the career that she had with DOD and started working to promote something that her late husband, who died in 2019 worked on the body am I saying it right? Kathy, body memory process, yes, and and she will tell us about that, so we'll get to all that. But for now, Kathi, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Kathi Sohn ** 02:37 Michael, it is great to be here. You are such a big inspiration to me. So thank you so much for having me on your show.   Michael Hingson ** 02:44 Well, thank you. I really am very glad that we get to do this. Do you have a podcast? No, I don't. Well see, did PodaPalooza convince you to start one?   Kathi Sohn ** 02:55 No, but there's always. I'm open to possibilities in the future. So   Michael Hingson ** 03:01 as as I tell people, potable is a pretty neat event. You go because you're a podcaster. You want to be a podcaster, or you want to be interviewed by podcasters, which covers basically a good part of the world. And so you're in the I want to talk to podcasters. And there we are, and we got to meet Kathi and chat with Kathi, and here we are. So it's a lot of fun. And so why don't we start, if you would, by you telling us a little bit about maybe the early Kathi growing up and all that sort of stuff, that's always fun to start at the beginning, as it were, yes,   Kathi Sohn ** 03:37 my goodness, so I, I grew up not in A a neighborhood where, you know, kids just played together and ride their bikes. I was, I was in a rather along a kind of a rural road in in Rhode Island, going down to the beach. If anyone has heard of watch Hill and westerly that area. So it was a beautiful, beautiful area. But because I didn't have a lot of, you know, again, I didn't have the neighborhood kids to play with, and I tended to be a little shy and to myself, I spent a lot of time after I was old enough and my mom let me just sort of exploring the woods nearby and learning, you know, just really kind of going within myself and thinking, and I would look at things in nature, and I would write this very deep poetry about it. So I think I was very fortunate, on the one hand on to have a very introspective life growing up. On the other hand, it didn't help me to work out, you know, some of that, that shyness, so that's something I needed to tackle a little bit later. As an adult, I had two older brothers, all three of us were adopted from very, very difficult beginnings. And again, it wasn't until I was an adult. And in fact, doing using the work that I'm going to talk about today, that I was able to understand some of the things that I was feeling and didn't understand growing up about myself, because some things were were shrouded in mystery, and I was able to get to the bottom of it, but basically, I had a very happy childhood. My adoptive parents were just so loving and wonderful and very, very fortunate to had a great education and parents who told me that I could do anything that I put my mind to.   Michael Hingson ** 05:38 It's great when parents do that, isn't it? Oh, yeah, I was very fortunate to have parents that took that position with me. When the doctor said, Send him up to a home, because no blind child could ever grow up to be anything, and all he'll do is be a drain on the family. And my parents said, No, I was very fortunate. So it's yeah, I I definitely sympathize and resonate with that, because it's so wonderful when parents are willing to really allow children to grow and explore. And obviously parents keep an eye on us, but still, when they allow us to do that, it's great. Yeah,   Kathi Sohn ** 06:13 I had heard you. I've heard you talk, because I have your your your book, live like a guide dog. And hearing about that story, and it reminds me, if anyone of your listeners are familiar with the Barry cowfield and his wife, who had an extremely autistic son, and the doctors were telling them, You need to institutionalize them that you can't you're not going to be able to deal with that. And they said, Are you kidding me? He's our son. If the best that we can do is just love him, then we're going to have him home. You know, he's our son. We're not going to put him anywhere. And then, of course, they they work with him, actually brought him out of autism through an amazing, amazing process. But yes, you're absolutely right. The parents are just, I know it seems almost cliche, but really, parents are instrumental, not just taking care of the physical needs, but those emotional needs, so, so critical and related to what we're going to talk about today.   Michael Hingson ** 07:20 Yeah, well, and it's, it's unfortunate when parents don't do that and they give into their fears and they don't let children explore, they don't let children grow. That's, that's so unfortunate when that happened. But I'm really glad that my parents and I'm glad your parents allowed you to to stretch and grow as well. That's a neat thing. So you and of course, being a reader of a variety of Stephen King books, when you talk about Rhode Island, although the Stephen King things were a little bit further north, but and the woods sort of makes me think of, oh my gosh, did you ever run into Pet Cemetery? But we won't worry about that.   08:03 Fortunately not,   Michael Hingson ** 08:06 yeah, yeah, that was a that was a scary book. Yeah, he's a pretty creative guy. But anyways, enjoy him. But anyway, so you went through school, you went to high school and and were a little bit shy. I kind of, again, I kind of empathize. I was in a neighborhood. It was not as rural, probably, as as what you grew up in. And kids did play, but I didn't really get a chance to do much playing with the kids, because I didn't do baseball and sports and all that. So I did a lot more reading. I hung around where the kids were, somewhat the other kids were, but my brother was the one that that really interacted with them. And I, I have to admit, that I didn't do as much of that, and was was probably a little bit shy or at least hesitant as a result, but I did make some friends. And in fact, when I was seven, there was a girl named Cindy who moved into our neighborhood, who had a bike, and she asked if I ever rode my bike, and I said I didn't have one. And she let me learn how to ride a bike on hers. And my parents saw that, and so then they got me a bike, and my brother had a bike, so we did a lot of bike riding after that, it was kind of fun.   Kathi Sohn ** 09:21 Yes, I love the part of the book where your dad took a call from the neighbor who was so nonplussed about the fact that, well, did he, did he fall off right? Did he? Did he run into anything? No, what's the problem? I got a good laugh out of that. Yeah, well, and   Michael Hingson ** 09:39 I know many blind people who, who, when they were kids, rode bikes. You know, it's not that magical. You have to learn how to do it. But so do side are kids. So it's, it's the same sort of thing. So what did you do after high school? Did you go to college?   Kathi Sohn ** 09:56 Yes, it's kind of a long. Story. Let's see if I can, if I can, sort of summarize, I had, I went into college in actually, was, in my mind, pre med, my I it was the major was zoology. Where did you go? University of Rhode Island. Okay, and I, I had been well when I was 12, I started piano lessons, and then I had private singing lessons when I was 14. So here I found myself on a college campus where there was a Fine Arts Center, and I had continued to, of course, develop in music. And a part of me kind of wanted to pursue becoming a sort of a music star, while the other part of me, of course, was more practical and guided by my parents about, okay, get yourself some, you know, a more dependable career. And so here I am on this college campus and spending more time in the fine arts center than than the library. So my college years were a little turbulent, as I was still trying to figure out really what I wanted to be. I went from pre med into nursing because, again, my grades weren't that great. And because of the distraction, and I even that, even that wasn't working, the problem essentially came with me. And instead of a fine arts building, it became, you know, playing, playing the piano in local bars was just kind of trying to find my way. And my dad told me one evening I was visiting, I was home with my parents, and I was very distraught. I don't know what I'm going to do. My grades aren't that great. And he said, I think I have an idea. I'll talk to you in the morning. Well, he worked for General Dynamics Electric Boat division. So he was involved working with the Navy building nuclear submarines. Did   Michael Hingson ** 12:10 he go to rotten Connecticut? Yes, yeah. And   Kathi Sohn ** 12:15 I actually ended up working there myself briefly. And he said, you know, the military may just be what you need. So, long story short, I ended up in the army and for, you know, for four years, and really did turn everything around. Then I started getting building that self confidence. I finished a undergraduate degree in political science. And then when I started working for the Defense Department, and there was I took advantage of the benefits of them helping me with paying for graduate degrees. I i got a graduate degree in conflict resolution and one from the Naval War College where I graduated top of my class in national security studies. Wow. So turned it all around. And yeah, so in the in, you'll love this too. A little loose end that I tied up. My dad encouraged me to do this the New York regions. It was called regents college, I think, yeah, University of the state of New York had a Regents college where you could challenge a nursing degree program. So with all the courses I had taken, and I just I went to a local hospital, I they helped me to practice stealth, adjusting changes and, you know, and all of that, giving IVs, and I passed the test. It was a weekend of clinical, one on one with a nurse evaluator failure. I could not, you know, had to be 100% and I passed. So I also have an Associates in nursing. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 13:57 I wanted to, you know, is this the time to say I wanted to be a doctor, but I didn't have any patients anyway. Go ahead, yes,   Kathi Sohn ** 14:06 gosh, I'm still interested in medicine, but I figure it all, it all comes in handy if I'm, you know, I have my kids at the doctor, and I can, I can talk with them at a level, you know, a little bit of a notch above just being a worried mom. What   Michael Hingson ** 14:20 do you think of a lot of the tendencies and the trends, and I've talked to a number of people on on a stop level mindset about it, a lot of the things that go on in Eastern medicine that Western medicine doesn't practice.   Kathi Sohn ** 14:34 Well, yeah. In fact, with the body memory process, my late husband factored that into what he developed as the body map, which I can can can discuss when the time comes, very, very important stuff that's just really being missed, although there are more and more doctors who are understanding the value. Yeah. That the body is an energy system and energy and information system, and they're starting to integrate that more.   Michael Hingson ** 15:08 And at least, my opinion, is they should. There is a lot more to it. It isn't all about drugs and surgery or shouldn't be. And so it is nice to see a lot of movement toward more, what, what many might call spiritual but there's, there's so much scientific evidence and anecdotal evidence that validates it, that it's, it's good, that more people are really starting to look at it. Yeah,   Kathi Sohn ** 15:37 absolutely. And this, if this might be an appropriate place to talk a little bit about some of the scientific underpinnings of the work that I'd like to discuss. There is science behind it, and you know that when there's research that's done in, say, the pharmaceutical area, it ends up the public will find out about it through, say, new new medications. With technology, you know, you went there's some breakthrough. You end up with something new for your phone. But some of the breakthroughs that were made in the 80s about the awareness of babies and children, especially babies in the womb, and also the mind body connection. You can you can see it referenced in some, you know, scientific papers, but it doesn't really often make it to to the public, and it is very relevant to the to the public. And that's what my late husband did, was he took this research and he turned it into a practical application to people's everyday lives. One of the most really stunning discoveries back in the 70s and 70s and 80s was made by someone named Dr Candice PERT. She wrote Molecules of Emotion, and they were trying to figure out why drugs work in the body. They figured it was sort of a lock and key that if, if you know so APO opiates worked in the body. They they figured that there was an opiate receptor somewhere. And during the course of this, they sort of accidentally discovered that during emotional events, the neurotransmitters from the brain travel to receptors all over the body, that they're actually located everywhere and in the organs, in the muscles. And Dr pert would make statements like deep trauma puts down deep roots in the body. You know, your body is your subconscious mind, so that is very, you know, very strong underpinning for the body memory process at that whole mind, body connection that we never really understood so well before   Michael Hingson ** 18:00 one of our earliest podcasts, it was actually number 18. I just looked it up. Was with a gentleman, Dr Gabe Roberts, and it was also from, I think a pot of Palooza was the first one I attended. And he is a psychologist, and he or he deals with psychological things, but one of the things that he talked a lot about, and talks a lot about, is people's traumas and their injuries and the things that bother them and and even the things that are good are all actually holograms that are in your memory. And he calls them holograms because you can get to a particular one, and hologram usually is really something that's just composed of a whole bunch of littler holograms. But what he does to help people is to work with them to find that hologram that they thought they got rid of, that they didn't really get rid of, because everything is always in your memory, and if you don't really deal with it, then it's going to sit there and continue to to affect you. But what he does is he works to help people find those memory things that really need to be corrected, and then helps them to correct it was fascinating interview. As I said, it's number 18 and unstoppable mindset. So my point it'd be, I think you might find it fun, and I think other people might find it fun to   Kathi Sohn ** 19:30 listen to. Yeah, definitely that. That sounds incredibly interesting. He's   Michael Hingson ** 19:35 in Kansas. I'm not sure if it's Kansas City, but he's in the Kansas area somewhere, as I recall, well, so you did all that, and then you, you were working at the Department of Defense. Were you a civilian and working essentially as a contractor, or working,   Kathi Sohn ** 19:52 yes, as a civilian? I It was sort of a natural, you know, from being in the military. Then I was. Able to find an assignment as a civilian when I got I only did four years in the Army. I never intended it really to be a lifetime career, but it was enough time again for me to turn things around. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 20:14 that's not the issue, isn't it? Yes,   20:17 yes, absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 20:19 So I mean, that's, that's and your father. So your father was right, and obviously he cared a lot about you Yes,   Kathi Sohn ** 20:27 and helped me with that. I Yes, I, my father did me such a great service by pointing me in that direction. I mean, my, my, you know, incredible career that I could not have imagined myself in if he hadn't pointed me in that direction, so I don't know what I would be doing. Hopefully it's still not floundering in college somewhere.   Michael Hingson ** 20:49 Yeah, so is there a truth to the old Jerry Lewis song, the baby gets a gravy and the army gets the beans. But anyway, it's a cute song. I listen to it every so often on my little Amazon Echo device. It's cute, yeah. But so, so when did you meet your husband through all this?   Kathi Sohn ** 21:11 Yeah, so it was 1994 and so I was pretty much square in the middle of my my career, my civilian career. And it was a there was a friend of mine that was sort of a mutual friend. She she knew him as well. I was living in Maryland, and David was living in Alabama, actually, where I live now. And she kept saying, You got to meet this guy. And kept saying to him, You got to meet this girl. It was one of those sort of matchmaker deals. And and she was right, even though the the both David and I weren't really looking for someone. So when she actually dragged him to my doorstep on Fourth of July, 1994 you know, there were some sparks, I think that we acknowledged that, but it took some time. I mean, we dated for almost three years before we were married, and then we were we were married for about 25 years, wow, before I last, before I lost David, and it was, you know, really wonderful. And, like all marriages, you know, some some, some ups and downs, but the overall theme was that we supported each other, you know, he was, you know, really incredible. I spent I would go to, I would go to war zones every now and then he would tell people, yeah, and then she came home with a flack vest and said, you know, by the way, this is where I'm going to be going. You know, when, when I came to him, and I guess it was 20 so 2017 I'm trying to what exactly, before that was 2015 the kids were still pretty young, but it was, it was really important for me to do a job, actually, in Afghanistan that was going to take me away from home for six months there. And he said, You know what, if it's if it's important to you, it's important to me, and we'll make it work. And he came from a military family, so we really understood that type of, yeah, he understood mission and commitment, right? And yeah. So he was probably never,   Michael Hingson ** 23:38 I never, needless to say, got to serve in the military because they they don't. When the draft was around, they wouldn't draft blind people, and later on, they wouldn't allow blind people to enlist, although, during the time of Afghanistan and Iraq, there were a few people who lost eyesight while in the military, and a couple of a few of them were allowed to to continue. But they never let me do that, and I, and I, and I understand the the prejudice, if you will, but it, it doesn't really stand that everyone has to be able to go into combat directly, and they could have found other jobs, but that's okay, and I certainly don't hold it against the military in any way, but I do appreciate the responsibility, and I've learned enough about military life from talking to a number of people and and my father was in World War Two, so starting with him, but others learning a lot about military. I appreciate what you're saying about it taught you a lot about responsibility. It taught you about commitment and so on. The closest I come to that is when I worked at Guide Dogs for the Blind any number of the puppy raiser families, those are the families that have agreed to take a guide dog puppy when they're about nine weeks old and they'll raise the dog, teach them basic obedience, teach them how to behave. In public and so on. And one of the things that children say, young kids who want to be puppy raisers and who take on the responsibility, is they learn so much about responsibility from doing that, because when they take on the job, it means they have to do the job, because the dog has to get used to somebody doing it, and they do such a wonderful job of raising these dogs who come back and they, a lot of them, become successful guide dogs. Not every dog does, because not every dog is really cut out to be a guide dog, but it's, it's not military, but it is still teaching responsibility and commitment. And the young kids who do it and really catch on are great. Yeah,   Kathi Sohn ** 25:42 yeah. So yeah, I can see the corollary there,   Michael Hingson ** 25:45 yeah, oh yeah. There's definitely some. It's pretty cool. Well, so I'm sorry, of course, you you lost your husband. I lost my wife Three years later, as you know, in 2022 but tell me so he was for a lot of the time when you were married. Was he in the military, or did he do other things? No,   Kathi Sohn ** 26:06 he was not in the military. They would not let him in the military because when he was 14, he was he had a near death experience. He had double staff pneumonia, and he was pronounced dead for a period of time, no respirations, no heart rate for a significant period of time. And then his dad noticed Bill something on the monitor, and there he was back again, and it's one of the reasons why he had ended up actually pulling this work together. So he he wanted to be in he was actually in ROTC, and I think it's interesting that he got through all of that, and then they decided that they didn't want to medically clear him to go into the military. But the men in his family always became military officers. His his dad was a general in the Air Force, and the closest that he got was helping with medevac, like Tanzania. And I remember him telling me the some stories about that he was working as an EMT, and he managed to do some connections to be able to do this work, just to be somewhat a part of, you know, the Vietnam War, but he really wanted to to be a military officer, and they just wouldn't allow him. But I think that maybe God wouldn't allow him because he had a different mission. I'm pretty convinced of that. So,   Michael Hingson ** 27:36 so he became a doctor.   Kathi Sohn ** 27:40 No, he, he had a couple of very advanced degrees, and, let me had a couple of doctorates, but he did not choose to not a medical doctor, to be a medical doctor, right, and do any type of mainstream work, because what he, what he brought in, was really kind of cutting edge, and you wanted to have the freedom, to be able to to put the work together without somebody telling them that, you know, is got it for regulations. He couldn't do that.   Michael Hingson ** 28:11 Well, let's get to it. I know you've alluded to it, and we've kind of circled around it. So tell us about the body memory process, and tell us what he did and all that you want to tell us about that Sure.   Kathi Sohn ** 28:24 So I talked a little earlier about the some of the the I talked about Dr Candice Kurt and the what she talked about with the by the mind body connection, what she learned and right about that time was also some research by Dr David Chamberlain about the consciousness of babies. Just, you know, they didn't even realize, I mean, the birthing practices were actually rather traumatic, really, just regular birthing practices in terms of the baby coming from that warm environment into a rather cool temperatures and very bright lights. So Dr Chamberlain did a lot of work. He wrote books like babies, remember birth and the mind of your unborn baby. And really brought a lot to bear about about how influential that period of time in our life can be. So then to take a couple steps backwards. First, we talked about David having that near death experience, and as he was growing up, the doctors kept telling him that he was never truly going to be well, and he kind of railed against that, and he was like, Well, you know, it really brought him to wonder, okay, what truly is wellness? So back in, back in that day, nobody was really talking about it. I think that if you look online these days, you see a lot of different theories about wellness and. You know, is across a spectrum, right of not just mind, body and spirit, but so many other things, including environmental factors. But he, in his quest for wellness, he did study the Far Eastern medicine medical practices, and he he studied Dr Chamberlain's work and about the such as Dr perks work, about the mind body connection. And so he pulled together what he called the body memory process, based upon the fact that what we believe, like the power of belief and the mind body connection and the awareness of babies and children that we had never really realized before about how they actually can create their reality. I mean, they they, but Dr Bruce Lipton calls if you're familiar with biology and belief, he talks about putting these programs in the place that we you know, we're born with sort of the operating system, but we need the programs. And so what we observe and what we experienced before we're seven years old, largely, we put together the core belief system. And so that's the body memory process is about, you know, basically how this all comes about. That's sort of like the this, the sort of the in the information part, there's a discovery part, which is, you know, what are your childhood vows? David called them vows, because, just like wedding bows, they're about what we promise ourselves, about how we're going to be in life, based upon these decisions we make when we're very, very young and and then so between, you know that that mind, body, spirit, side of things, he pulled together this process where, after you have discovered what your vows are, then there is a release process, how to be able to let that go. And these, these beliefs are in, these Vows are actually in our cell memory, kind of like that hologram that you were talking about before, and David created a process for people to be able to then, sort of like, if it's a vow, then to disavow it, to be able to empty the cell memory. Because he said, If you, if the cup is full, right, you can't put anything new in, you know? You can try with affirmations, you can try, through willpower, to change a habit, but if you, but if you have these, these, this energetic you know aspect to yourself, these vows that are actually in your subconscious and are there, then it needs to be dealt with. That energy needs to be released in order to be able to truly create what you want in the present moment as an adult.   Michael Hingson ** 33:11 Hence the title of your book. You made it up now stop believing it. Yes, yeah. I figured I love the title. That's a great title. So, so what exactly is the body memory process then?   Kathi Sohn ** 33:27 So it's the book goes into live details about it, you know, there, there is a discovery aspect to it, you know, and there's that's that involves both subjective and objective data, if you will. It's, you know, what, what am I feeling in my body? Where do I carry tension? Maybe, if I have the same thing, you know, sort of happening over and over again, like I I always, maybe, maybe it's the right side of my body where I'm always, maybe I'm stubbing my right toe or, you know, maybe I've, whenever I have a I fall down, you know, it's always like, I land on the right side, and I create problems there, and maybe I have a really tight right hip. You know, it's like, what, what's going on in your in your body? It's about what's going on in your life. I mean, how are, how are things overall, with your health, with your finances, with your relationships, with your career. And then there's, you know what? What was going on start in your very early life, starting with when you were in the womb, like, what was going on with mom, you know what? And that's sort of like an investigative process that clients get to do, you know, if mom is still around then, that she's really probably the best source of information there, but there could be other family members who are who are aware, and sometimes you don't. Get a lot, or maybe you don't even get any information from that period of time, and you need to just do a lot of this work through, through, you know, through intuition and and being being able to take a look at sample beliefs, which I have a collection of over 900 that David had gathered over the years of working with his clients, and to be able to take a look and see what resonates. You know, clients find that very valuable. To be able to say, oh, yeah, yep, that's absolutely me, you know, right there, because sometimes it's difficult to access it, because it's in the subconscious. I I have a video that I've created to help walk people through that discovery process. And since losing David, I've done whatever I can to sort of replicate what he was able to do quite intuitively. He would, he would be with someone for about three, three and a half hours, and he could just laser being right to do what was going on based upon how they were talking about what was going in their life, on in their life now and then, talking about what their childhood was like, Mom, Dad, how the relationship was. He would listen to how they would talk. He called it listening them, not listening to because when you're listening to someone, sometimes you're already thinking about what you want to say next to contribute to the conversation, which is fine, but when you're when you're listening someone. You're giving them that full space. You pull in all your energy, and you give them the full attention so that you can catch them saying pretty much their script. He said, you could, you know, you could hear even their birth script like they would, their belief system would just sort of come out. And the things that they would say, like, well, I know nobody ever really believes me, right? So as an example, and sometimes we might say that sort of in just in talking, it's sort of an assumption there that people just let that go, unless there's someone who's really engaged and says, Hey, wait a minute, let's talk about that a little bit like, what's the evidence that you have that nobody ever believes you and and sometimes people need to be able to take some of these assumptions that they that they just find they live their life by, and actually challenge them and say, you know, where does that come from? And try to get back to, you know, when, when that first occurred, because then thereafter, a lot of times it's just a self fulfilling prophecy, and every and he just keeps reinforcing itself.   Michael Hingson ** 37:48 Well, yeah, and we, we sell ourselves short in so many ways. And one of the things that you talked a little bit about is is childhood and so many people think, well, you're when you're when you grow up, your childhood is left behind. And I gather that you're saying, No, that's not true, because even from the womb, there's memory. How. How do we know that?   Kathi Sohn ** 38:16 Really, I think it's if you don't just sort of deal with whatever was going on back then, then it is going to sort of reach up and bite you at some point. I mean, everybody has something, even the people who say they have the have had the most perfect childhood. Because it's not about when I talk about childhood trauma in the book, and I talk about trauma, it's not about abuse and neglect. I mean, unfortunately that happens to many, but it's about how we actually sort of traumatize ourselves, because we're not yet logical. So before we're seven, we're not we're not even logical, and we're largely, you know, in our emotional brain, and we're the center of our own universe. We're very egocentrical During those years, and so we tend to jump to the conclusion that it's about right, it's about me, something happened, or mom and dad are fighting. It's about me, right? Or anything that goes wrong, it's either about something I did or something I didn't do. That was really big for me, like it's one of the other damned if I do, damned if I don't. So yeah, I would, I would be willing to make a rather bold statement that says everyone has something that they could look at from their early life, and that, because it's having some type of an impact on your adult life.   Michael Hingson ** 39:45 Has anyone ever used hypnosis to help somebody actually go back and and either at least learn about maybe that early childhood or even pre birth kind of thing   Kathi Sohn ** 39:59 I'm. Sure. I mean, so, you know, David created his work, and he called it the body memory process. It's not the only game in town, right there. There are other people who are are doing other things that are similar. I think Hypno, hypnosis, hypnotherapy, can get you there as well. I think that there's also something called rebirthing that was something that was going on, I think, that came out of the of the 80s as well, which was about, very specifically, getting you back to when you were born, right? What was going on during that time? So I think that you know anything that that that works for for you, to get you, you know, back into that time period is good. I think what makes David's work so especially powerful is that he has a very balanced sort of mind, body, spirit approach. And that is not just about, well, here's the bad news. It's about, you know, here's the good news too, because here's a way to be able to let that go and and to be able to move on. You know, I when we talk about, when I talk about this topic of going back to your childhood, I always think of that scene from The Lion King, where the monkey, you know, Rafiki, sort of bops The Lion, the young lion, Simba on the head right with the stick that says, It doesn't matter. It's all in the past. And that's true to on the one hand, because we need not dwell on the past, we need to be able to get the goodness from it, learn from it. That's the point, and then be able to let it go. And I think that's what the body memory process does, is it takes us back to be able to do that, that self examination, and then gives us a way to then be able to move on and not dwell on it, because it's not who we are. It's not it doesn't define us, even though, if we're not aware of it, we inadvertently let it define us. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:10 and that's the issue. It's like I always say, and many people say, in the National Federation of blind, blindness doesn't define us. It is part of who we are, but it doesn't define us. But when we allow something specific to define us without understanding the importance of it, that's a problem, but that is something that we have control over if we choose to do it.   Kathi Sohn ** 42:32 Yes, yes, absolutely. So how did David   Michael Hingson ** 42:36 come to actually create the whole concept of the body memory process.   Kathi Sohn ** 42:42 Well, you know, again, I think it was his personal quest for wellness that got him, you know, into doing the the investigative work that he did. He actually had other other work that he was doing for a while. He did a home restoration, you know. And he was a builder, a home builder, at one point, but this work just really kept calling him. And it was, I think, the early 80s. It was somewhere around 1984 I think that he started actually working with clients where he had pulled together all of this information and created the the discovery and then the release process for poor beliefs. But he there was someone who actually paid for him to go through a lot of the trainings that were going on in the 80s, like life, spring was one of them, and there's a few others where I think there was this human potential movement. Back during that time, people were starting to turn inward. And then, of course, at the same time all of this research was was coming out, like Dr Chamberlain and Dr PERT. So I think that David was is sort of like in the middle of a perfect storm to be able to create this because he had his own personal motivation. He had access to the all of the state of the art research that was going on around him during that time period, and he was also very intelligent and very intuitive. So he said that when he came back from his near death experience, he he knew that there, there was a reason that he came back. So I think he always had a sense of mission that he wanted to make a contribution to the world. And then it just over time, it just became clearer and clearer what that was. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 44:51 So have you had any direct experience with the body memory process? I.   Kathi Sohn ** 44:59 Yes, I absolutely have. I used to tell David that I was his poster child because of, because I had a lot of stuff that I was dealing with. I I had a birth mom, and then I had an adoptive mom, and I had, you know, my own, my own baggage that came from, from both. So I had, you know, many layers to, you know, to work through. But I guess, you know, there's always got to be something. You know, David said that he would work with the greedy, the needy and the greedy. He said the needy were the were people who ended up in some sort of crisis, because this, if you call it, your life script, which was another word for this collection of vows that we create during early life, that your your life script can either keep you in your comfort zone or it will keep you in crisis. There's really, there's, there's really two, but two, those two avenues, when you have this unexplored stuff that's that's going on, right? And then the greedy are the people who would like pretty good and they just want more, and he's so and it's all valid. It's all good, right? The different avenues that lead us to the work. For me, it really was a personal crisis that had been simmering for me through all of my life, starting when I was very, very young. I mentioned earlier that I was kind of shy, but it was really, really difficult for me just to just through school when you know I knew the answers to things. I wanted to be able to to talk in front of the class, but it was so scary for me just to be the center of attention. It was just, I just think of, there's some of the stories are kind of funny in my mind about what happened, even to the point where once I got in front of the class and I was laughing at my own science fiction story that I had written, and then everybody else started laughing. And that was actually a pretty positive experience, but most of them were rather negative, but it didn't really come to a head for me until I was a manager. I worked my up, my way up in at the Defense Department, and I was in in charge of an office. I I needed to be able to speak to my personnel. I had staff meetings, and I had greater and greater responsibilities. I needed to lead conferences and things like that. And I became face to face with my own fears of just being in front of a great as bigger and bigger rooms of people. And I know that, you know, this is a common thing for for for people, common fear with public speaking. But for me, it was, it's just, I can't even explain on the inside how difficult it was. I managed to pull it off a lot of times, and people would compliment me, and they didn't, you know, like you didn't look nervous. But I realized that I had to deal with it, or it was going to make me ill because of internally, the turmoil I was going through. And so I did use the work and ended up discovering, I told you that my parents adopted kids from very difficult beginnings, as it as I discovered, again, that's another story, but a little bit later in life, I had been, you know, basically At six months I had been born, though, from from an attack from my birth mom, so she tried to to do a home abortion when I was six, only six months along, and so that was rather traumatic, you know? I ended up born. I was an orphan, and I didn't have, you know, I wasn't received into the world by a loving mom. And then I think what was piled on top of that was the fact that I was in an incubator, and I was peered at by the medical staff, probably many of whom didn't think I was going to make it. So, you know, when you again, based upon the work that Dr Chamberlain did, and the idea of the connectedness, and that everything is about energy, and that there is communication that's going on, but it's at a sort of at a vibrational level, and that the infant is actually able to pick up on that, it's not, it's not about language, right? It's not about their mental development. It's something else that, you know, it just, it puts it's it puts these foundations within us into into place, until again, we're able to get back into that energy and be able. To deal with it. So for me, it was about that judgment. Whenever I got myself, got in front of a room, you know, I was that little baby in an incubator, and people that were, you know, like, I don't think she's going to make it. And so that was sort of a, if you picture, if you, if you kind of take that and overlay that on, you know, speaking in front of a room, what is not being able to make it or, you know, or dying, you know, it's like, Well, I kind of screw up, right? I forget what I was going to say. Or, but, and again, it's not, it's not, it's not rational. I couldn't say that it was I knew very specifically of what the turmoil was about. It was just about this intense energy that I could not define. But it was there for me. It was like I was right back in that incubator being evaluated and fighting for my life.   Michael Hingson ** 51:01 So what did you do?   Kathi Sohn ** 51:04 Well, I did the body memory process. Well, first I had my my my David and I sat down, and we really explored it, and I was able to put words to it. So for me, it was they watched me to see when I'm going to die and when I was able to do the body memory process, and again, it's all outlined in the book, but you know, the specific process around that I was able to, over time, increasingly, be able to feel comfortable in front of a room. And now I do public speaking, I'm able to be on camera and take David's work, you know, really to the world, and be the face of the work. If he had said that I was going to be doing this back in those years, I would have said, You've got to be kidding me. There's no way that I could, that I could do that through most of the years. When I had David, I was so thankful that he was the one who stood in front of the room right he was the one in front of the camera, and I was very happy to support him from behind the scenes. But I think that when I made the decision to carry on his work, and I think that's when I did the final steps of the process of being able to release all of that and say, Okay, again, that's in the past. Right to to be able to have to let that go, realize it for what it was. But it's not about who I am now. But   Michael Hingson ** 52:35 the issue is that you recognize it, you you learn from it, which is why it's important that you acknowledge it, yes. And you know, in live like a guide dog. We talk, as you know, about self analysis, introspection and so on. And I wish more people would do it. And I wish people would do it more often. I'm a fan of saying that people should do it every day. You should look at what at the end of the day. Look at what happened today, what worked, what didn't work, and even the stuff that worked, could I do it better, or the stuff that maybe didn't work? It's not a failure, it's a learning experience, and you should use it and treat it as that, which is why I also tell people never use the term. I'm my own worst critic. I've learned that I'm my own best teacher, which is a whole lot more positive anyway.   Kathi Sohn ** 53:25 Yes, absolutely. The other thing, Michael and Anna, and this is from, I think, in an interview that you were in when they were talking about what you were going through on 911 and you know you as the you were thinking to saying to God, gee, we got through one tower, and now there's another one coming down and and what are we facing? And that you you your own guidance you heard about. Just don't try to just what you can control. Can worry about what you can Right, right? And I think that's what this work is about, is that if we go through life and we're not we don't know that all of this is operating below the surface. It's so easy to blame events and people and circumstances and conditions for everything, but if we're willing to take personal responsibility, and go back to those early years, then we are doing something about what we can do, and then when we go forward in our adult life, we can handle those crises, and we can be much more in control of ourselves. And that's where we're we're truly in a place of power, because we can't control all those events and conditions, but we can be, you know, I just think again, that's why you're so inspirational. Like, okay, you know, you couldn't do anything about what was going on around you in in New York, but you were able to be. Com and trust your dog and to trust God, and that's the way we want to be in life.   Michael Hingson ** 55:06 Well, and that went both ways. The dog trusted me as well, and it and it really is a two way trust situation. You know, I read articles even as late as 30 years after I was born, about people who became blind from the same thing that I did, retroenter fibroplasia, now called retinopathy or prematurity, and I'll never understand why they changed the name doesn't change anything. But anyway, people sued their doctors, even 30 years later, and won lawsuits because medical science had started to learn. At least a couple of doctors had discovered. One specifically discovered that giving a child in an incubator, a premature baby, a pure oxygen environment, 24 hours a day, could be a problem for retinal development, and even if you gave them a little bit of regular error, the incidence of blindness went to zero, but it wasn't accepted by medical science, and so people sued, and they won, and I and I asked my dad one day, what do you think? Should we go back and sue the doctors? And he said, and what would it accomplish? Yeah, and he was absolutely right. And I wasn't asking him, because I was ready to go do it. I was just curious to see what he thought about it. And he thought, really, the same thing that I did, what would it accomplish? Even if we won, it doesn't do anything, and it ruins lives, because the doctors were doing the best with what they had. You couldn't prove negligence, yeah,   Kathi Sohn ** 56:39 absolutely it's they were doing the best with the information they had, and that's the way we should be with ourselves too, right? This isn't about going back and then get feeling guilty or blaming your parents or, you know, blaming yourself. We did the best that we in our own lives, at every stage of our lives. You know, we really are doing the best that we can with the information and the resources that we have   Michael Hingson ** 57:04 exactly, and that's what we should do. Yes. So what are some ways that people can benefit from the body memory process?   Kathi Sohn ** 57:14 Well, you know, again, I get, I had mentioned that 360 degree, look at your life there, there's, there's so many ways that you you can can benefit, because when you have this energy that you haven't discovered these, these, these beliefs, there, there is, there are words that You can put to it, and that actually plays out in your life, sometimes in very, very limiting ways. And you know, if you're looking at, say, finances, if you were raised with, you know the root of money, the root of evil is, you know money is the root of evil. You know that in you have that operating, then you're you're going to have a limit, a limit, you know, a limited way that you're interacting with money. I like to talk about some of the rather innocuous ways that, you know, relatives talk to us when we're little, and, you know, they end up impacting us as adults and limiting us, for example, if, if I have an uncle who says, Well, you know this, the Smiths are hard workers. We work hard for every penny. We don't make a lot, but we work really hard for every penny we make. It's like, okay, well, gee thanks. Now, you know, I'm going to grow up, and that's in there, in my subconscious. And, you know, I, I'm gonna, I believe that I have to work hard. And not only do I have to work hard, but I'm, you know, I may, I can't really earn money easily, right? So maybe investments are off the table for me, investments that might yield, you know, a lot of money. I mean, there's, there's, there's so many ways that this plays out in our life, and we don't even know that it's it's impacting us in what we do, and then what we're not doing, you know, if we're not taking risks, that could actually be good for us because of this. So people would benefit from from just taking a look, because you don't know, you know where it could could help you, but I can say that it can help you across health, across finances, relationships. That's huge about you know, what you observed in your parents and how they talk to each other, and then how how you are in relationship as an adult. So in so many different really, those important areas of our lives, this type of work can really benefit. There   Michael Hingson ** 59:57 are so many things that. Happen to us, or that we become involved in in some way or another, that are really things that we chose to have happen, maybe whether we realize it or not, and it's really all about choice, and likewise, we can choose to be successful. It may not happen exactly the way we think, but it's still a matter of choice, and that is something that is so important, I think, for people to learn about and to understand that you can make choices, and it's it's all about learning. So when you make a choice, if it doesn't work out, or it doesn't work out the way you thought, and it's not a problem, or it is a problem, then you make another choice, but if we don't explore and we don't learn, we won't go anywhere, right, right? Well, this has been a lot of fun, and I hope people will go out and buy the book again. You made it up. Now stop believing it. I love the title and and I hope that people will get it. We put a picture of it in the show notes, so definitely go check it out. And I want to thank you for being here and spending the last hour plus with us. I I've enjoyed it. I've learned a lot, and I always like to learn, so that's why doing this podcast is so much fun. So thank you for that. And I want to thank you all for listening wherever you are or watching if you're on YouTube. Cathy was a little bit worried about her room isn't as neat as she maybe wanted it, so she wasn't sure whether it was going to be great to video. And I pointed out, I don't have a background or anything. Don't worry about it. The only thing I do is close my door so my cat won't come in and bother us.   1:01:41 Oh, yeah, me too, yeah. Well, stitch   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:44 is probably out there waiting, because it's getting close to one of them many times during the day that she wants to eat, and I have to pet her while she eats. So we do have our obligations in life. Yes, we do, but it's fun, but I want to thank you for being here. But thank you all, and please, wherever you're listening or watching, give us a five star review. We value it. I'd love to hear your thoughts about today and our episode. So if you would email me, I'd appreciate it. Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, or go to our podcast page. Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S o, n.com/podcast, definitely love to get your thoughts Kathy. How do people get a hold of you if they want to learn more? Or are you are you doing coaching or working with people today?   Kathi Sohn ** 1:02:37 Yes. So if you go to Kathi sohn.com, that's k, A, T, H, I, s, O, H n.com, there's a lot of information on there. You can learn more about body memory. You can get a free chapter of the book. I have a couple other free gifts on there. You can and you can learn about my coaching programs. I have private coaching and for individuals, and I love to work with parents as well.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:06 Well, there you go. There you go. So Kathisohn.com and I hope people will do that again. We really appreciate a five star review. And Kathy for you, and all of you out there, if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, because you feel they have a story they should tell introduce us. And if they don't think they can come on and tell the story, I'll talk with them. And oftentimes I can show people why it's important that they come on and tell their story. A lot of times, people say, I don't really have anything that makes me unique or different. Well, yeah, you do the fact that you're you, but anyway, if you know anyone who ought to be a guest, we'd love to hear from you and Kathy, if you know anyone same for you. But again, I really appreciate you being here and being a part of unstoppable mindset today. So thank you very much for coming.   1:03:56 Yes, thank you for having me here.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:02 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

“Anime”? What is that? Well, listen to our guest this time, Maison Collawn who will explain. Maison was diagnosed as “developmentally delayed” when he was under three years old. By the age of seven his diagnosis was changed to label him as someone with autism, more specifically at the time, he was diagnosed as having Asperger Syndrome. Yes, Maison grew up understanding that he was different. He did not always handle difference well, especially while growing up. Over time he came to realize that difference did not mean he was less than others. As you will discover, Maison is quite bright and has learned to live in the world just like most all of us. He has a job as an Assistant Produce Manager at a Kroger store.   Maison made television quite a hobby and vehicle for his entertainment. He and I talk quite a bit about media entertainment and have a fascinating conversation about the future of television and even motion pictures. Given his observations, it is difficult to disagree where he thinks media entertainment is headed.   In addition to work, participating in his community and enjoying television he also hosts a podcast. I met Maison through the Podapalooza event program we have discussed in earlier episodes. I had the opportunity to participate as a guest on his podcast, MC Anime Podcast. He agreed to reciprocate and here we are. I hope you enjoy Maison and his life philosophy.       About the Guest:   Maison Collawn is the creator and host of the MC Anime Podcast, where he channels his passion for communication into exploring diverse topics and fostering meaningful discussions with listeners. Living with autism has profoundly influenced his worldview and his approach to engaging with others, allowing him to connect on a deeper level with audiences. His journey into media and communications was shaped by his academic background, including an Associate's degree in Social Science from Reynolds Community College and a certificate in Journalism. These achievements reflect his commitment to understanding people and society, as well as his dedication to improving his skills in storytelling and media. A natural communicator, Maison thrives in spaces that encourage conversation and idea exchange. His podcast, which blends insightful commentary with personal stories, is a platform where he engages with a variety of topics, ranging from anime and pop culture to broader discussions about social issues and human behavior. Through the MC Anime Podcast, he has developed strong interviewing and research skills, creating a space for guests to share their perspectives and for listeners to engage in thought-provoking dialogues. Beyond podcasting, Maison is committed to staying active in his community and constantly exploring new avenues for growth. Whether through his academic work, community outreach, or journalistic pursuits, he is always seeking to connect with others and expand his understanding of the world. His desire to try new things, learn from others, and share knowledge fuels his ongoing exploration of mass communications, especially in the realms of media and journalism. He believes in the power of thoughtful, meaningful conversation to create positive change. In everything he does, he is driven by a passion for people—listening to their stories, understanding their experiences, and using his voice to make a positive impact. Through the MC Anime Podcast and other endeavors, he aims to bridge gaps in understanding and bring diverse voices together, creating a space where all perspectives are valued and heard. Whether speaking about his own experiences or exploring the stories of others, his mission is clear: to engage, inspire, and foster a sense of community.   Ways to connect Maison:   http://www.facebook.com/BlogMCAnime and my collection of links is https://linktr.ee/MCAnime   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone. Welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Michael Hingson, and today we have a guest who I'm really excited to talk to and talk about. We could talk about him, but I'd love to talk with him. So Maison, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. Why don't you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you?   Maison Collawn ** 01:47 Hey guys. So my name is Maison. Maison Collawn for that matter, and I am a fellow podcast myself. I want MCMA podcast. Want to launch voice of the voiceless. I am a typical person who likes entertainment, Asian culture with a twist and overall, speaking in general, as a medium to present me to myself, I did   Michael Hingson ** 02:15 so tell me about this Asian culture with a twist that sounds intriguing.   Maison Collawn ** 02:20 So Asian cultural twist typically includes two aspects of what the coverage of the podcast is. One is Japanese esthetics and Asian studies. So I take on different like historical perspectives, like, for example, when I did Western storytelling and Eastern storytelling, where I was, I dissected each of the main stories that was in those civilizations, like Journey to the West, with Asia and the Odyssey with Western civilization, and then we compare them both, and did a case by Case Study side by   Michael Hingson ** 03:01 side. So what got you interested in that? Ah,   Maison Collawn ** 03:04 I think it was the well, in the anime that, because I didn't realize I watched anime when I was younger, like Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh, and then when I re watched those shows, because I would, you know when to relive nostalgic days, I found that this is actually anime. So it's anime from Japan with Japanese culture. So by diving into Japanese culture animated TV shows, I was able to have a broader aspect of Oh. So if this is Japan. And then they also touch on Asia. That's for some aspects of Asia too, and just also history is something I like. So knowing about it and talking about it is pretty easy.   Michael Hingson ** 03:54 So dealing with animating and Japan and the culture and so on. Did you watch all the Godzilla movies from Japan over the years? I've   Maison Collawn ** 04:05 seen a couple of them. I hadn't seen all of them. Um, there's a lot in the franchise, like Gotha and the God of all monsters, but the law is very interesting, because you got mecha Godzilla in there, you have King Kong and somehow in there, but Godzilla is facing all these different beasts. But I would like Godzilla as a film to study. They use a lot of claymation in the formation of movie sets in the early days, right?   Michael Hingson ** 04:40 I remember the original Godzilla movie. I think it was 1955 maybe it was earlier than that, but, yeah, I think was around 1955 but it definitely became part of the culture over the years. And then, then, of course, it got picked up over here. The original King Kong versus Godzilla. Was a US movie, not a Japanese movie, but everybody put their own spin and brought their own things to it. It's, it's kind of fascinating. Yeah,   Maison Collawn ** 05:09 well, his own genre, Sky juice. Yes, giant creatures. Tell   Michael Hingson ** 05:14 me something about you growing up that of the early Mason if you would tell us a little bit about kind of your your young background and all that, so people get to know you better. So   Maison Collawn ** 05:25 my younger background is I sought out negative attention, how I struggle. I was misunderstood. And instead of positive reinforcements, I sought out the negative attention. So what I did with the negative attention was I anticipate. People and be the antagonizer. I got to the point where they care what people thought. I just accepted that I am who I am, and I'll live who I would to be. And if you don't like me or well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:59 well you are, you are different in some ways than a lot of people tell us about that. Because obviously you, you, you do have differences. And you know what people would say, you have disabilities, although I would, I would argue that disability does not mean lack of ability. So just so you know where I'm coming from, but tell us about the about you all that.   Maison Collawn ** 06:23 So I was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome disorder. So before that became autism as a whole, because they changed ASD to autism syndrome disorder instead, because I just did one umbrella was I was high functioning. So in that community, high functioning was seen as you're more your average, but you're socially awkward. You could do some things and but you still have some small discrepancies that people can make pick up on, but these people picking up on it might not see it necessarily. In a normal, more severe case of autism, I was a less severe case, so that's how that was. I was able to function more academics. Was high typically only had one area. I struggled stuff like that. But political correctness now is they don't use the term high functioning because it just it creates this different learning curve that's applied to other people, because people in autism and the spectrum learn on different ways, and just one person who's high functioning or a mild case or a severe case, all of them interact and have the disability in a different way.   Michael Hingson ** 08:01 And so you have other disabilities or, or I   Maison Collawn ** 08:06 have also odd, I'm sorry, oppositional, oppositional defiance disorder. So I would oppose authority, and I will be combative, or potentially like to get an argument, and I'm more prone to it than, say, a normal, neurotypical person. How do you deal with that? Lots of trial and error. If one thing doesn't work and the same thing keeps happening, I would talk it out and eventually figure out a solution. I know with my younger days when I was working odd would trigger, and I would create situations where the management, staff, food line that I worked at would also, lot of times, intervene. We'll have meetings, discuss what I did, what I did wrong, and talk about it. And at times it was like maybe I said something I shouldn't, or there's an outburst, or I'm just not speaking professional, so we had to take the time to address the issue and keep talking about it because of that. So it's still an ongoing thing, but it's got a lot better in some aspects, and not as openly defined. It's more like I misunderstand directions, or I might take the wrong context and react differently.   Michael Hingson ** 09:52 Well, I think there are a lot of people that do that, actually, but, but you know, I hear what you're I hear. What you're saying, and it's part of you know who you are, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's fine. I have had lots of discussions with people about the whole concept of disabilities, and one of the things that I have said, especially over the last year, is that disability is not a lack of ability, but rather, disability is a characteristic that everyone has. It manifests itself differently for different people. For most people on the planet, the disability that they have is that they're light dependent, and you don't do well without light and that doesn't mean that you can't but we are brought up primarily as light dependent people we are brought up with, you got to have light. And now, with the fact that light is so available on demand because of Thomas Edison, the disability gets covered up a lot, but it doesn't mean that it isn't there. And so the reality is that that it is a characteristic that everyone has, and it manifests itself differently for different people, but it doesn't make anyone less than anyone else, or it should or it shouldn't anyway.   Maison Collawn ** 11:06 Well, my manifestation of disability is through social skills, non verbal communication, executive function, such a decision making like if I were to this is a common example that could be applied to me stopped by a police officer, I'm more likely to be hauled up for questioning because they don't understand how to deal with me. I'm not trying to be a guilty party that they can suspect me as a guilt, let's say I wore my eyes not paying attention, or stuttering, or whatever is happening. They could determine that to be, oh, he's suspicious. He's a suspect. He is hiding something, right? So with that being said, that could be is a realized situation where there's not enough awareness, if they don't know, they're going to treat me like I have, like I have a criminal tendency,   Michael Hingson ** 12:11 right? And they make assumptions and and operate accordingly, without really having enough information or knowledge about how to get the information that they need to have. And that's something that we we see a lot. You know, when I was born, and I was born two months premature, and when it was discovered I was blind, the doctor said, send them to a home, because no blind child can ever grow up to amount to anything. And that is still all too often, the way blind children and blind people in general are treated today, you're blind, you can't possibly be as competent overall as a person with eyesight, and that's just simply not true, but that is the way we bring people up. Well,   Maison Collawn ** 12:59 there's a different way of learning, different way to to go with it, but also navigation on without sight, to get access to information that sighted people have   Michael Hingson ** 13:12 well, and the reason that they have the information is because they're a whole lot more sighted people than than blind people. And so we make the world site oriented, and it is very difficult to get society to change and recognize that we really need to be able to accommodate both categories sighted and non sighted, or any number of other different kinds of differences, and accommodate   Maison Collawn ** 13:41 them, non neotypical and neotypical. That's the aspect as well.   Michael Hingson ** 13:46 Sure, it's an issue to deal with. So when were you originally diagnosed as well? Let's just use the general term, a person with autism. So   Maison Collawn ** 14:00 I had two diagnosis, one for severe developmental delay, and then the other one was autism itself. So from 18 months to five years, they were saying I was delayed, and that's how a developmental delay was my diagnosis. Then they found out that was autistic at age seven. Let's change their understanding of what the diagnosis I actually had. To specific instances of they were overlaid. They were overlay similar because most psychological conditions were very similar, and typically, through as you get older, you accept more symptoms of the one you actually have, instead of the early on transgression. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 14:52 you know the the the issue is we're still learning to understand things like autism, although. Um, we're learning a lot. I've had people on this podcast who said they they had autism and it wasn't even diagnosed until they were adults, because they just didn't learn enough about it soon enough.   Maison Collawn ** 15:16 Because lot of people can have different diagnosis all at the same time. So there is no one size fit all test to think everything out   Michael Hingson ** 15:30 right. And again, it's it's a learning process, like with anything that makes anyone different. But the reality is, we're all different in so many ways. Yes, and it does need to go away, but it is   Maison Collawn ** 15:45 to constantly think about them and maybe analyze it differently. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 15:54 we're still learning to do that, and we're still working to get people to teach that to most individuals, but we'll get there. Just takes a while. Yeah, well, so you mentioned earlier that you you seek out entertainment. What medium Did you really decide was going to be the entertainment medium of choice for you, and why?   Maison Collawn ** 16:24 Well, my medium of choice was actually TV for the longest time, and it still is, and it's still a major factor in it. Um, when I was a child, the only thing I had for entertainment was TV. So my only way to spend some extra time. If I wasn't doing physical activities and other stuff with the TV, I would watch all my shows, watch movies, watch DVDs, watch stuff in the Campo, go to the flea market, watch the TV and the trailer on Saturday night morning, watch different cartoons, that type of stuff. As I grew up, the more TV I watched, it just became mainstream. I got older, it kind of went to streaming, but it's still TV related. So you can say that I changed streaming from TV, but in reality, it still shows that I'm watching so it's still TV shows most likely, and   Michael Hingson ** 17:28 that that satisfied something in your psyche, I gather,   Maison Collawn ** 17:34 yeah, it the it was the As how storytelling can be interesting. It can be compelling, those different plots, those different tropes, those archetypes out there that can tell what is going on in the general sense, and they can apply that to the show. And you can see different patterns falling a line in the show itself. Well.   Michael Hingson ** 17:58 So for you, you've obviously watched a lot of TV. How do you think that TV has changed as a medium over the years, and has it become better or worse? Or is that really a judgment anyone can make?   Maison Collawn ** 18:15 Well, TV has changed dramatically in the sense that not everyone is available to watch live content on the broadcasting as much they rather there's been a change in focus to streaming so they can watch this TV show, no no ads. They can watch it anytime they want. Basically Video on Demand become the change that TV has tried to do, but it's different. That's why cable services just to compete. They have video on demand you can watch the next day on shows. That's why some TV networks like revising stuff like that, is able to compete with streaming because they have a service that's, you know, video on demand. However, streaming will probably be the major market coming forward, because people are realizing that access to all these channels is probably not worth the money you pay. So these people, companies and satellite companies are behind the times, and they're trying to scramble to keep the buyers that they have.   Michael Hingson ** 19:35 Well, in reality, it's it's definitely changing, and you're right, streaming has become so ubiquitous already, and I think people are going to have to accept that going forward, and it's going to be interesting to see how all that works out, because you've got still different streaming companies. You. That provide different content, and I wonder how that's going to be addressed over time, because people ultimately really want to stream whatever they want to stream, and different groups have different things that are popular to them. I wonder how they're going to deal with all that. Do you think that companies are going to merge? Do you think that it's going to be that some companies are just going to license other content. What do you think is going to happen?   Maison Collawn ** 20:25 Well, I think the major focus right now is for these companies to survive. Is acquisitions. Yeah, you see what happened with Disney and Hulu? Disney now I do those majority hold up Hulu Paramount is potentially going to sell in the near future. They're going to potentially, you know, look at Warner Bros. What? How many times do they get bought out? How many times they go to fox, fox, you know, you know, having different acquisitions is what these companies do. The liquidate assets. And, you know, with the anime streaming, we had fun information in country roll. Sony already bought fundation. They just load country roll information together and made country roll the sole service. So that's kind of what they're doing. What do you eat with big companies. They were doing acquisitions to meet the demand to stay, I guess, survive. What   Michael Hingson ** 21:31 do you think is going to happen to the motion picture industry, which is, of course, a different animal, but that that's an interesting one, world that's all going to fit into it, because, again, people want to start streaming movies and so on. So where do you think motion pictures are going to   Maison Collawn ** 21:49 go? Well, that's all. What a decline in motion pictures is lately, if they don't, if they keep releasing movies, that is not necessarily an original idea. There's not going to be as much as a need to go to the theaters, if you can just buy it online, straight out. I mean, if it's available on like HBO Max, and these movies are like, Well, we are offering this movie on our platform, but also being theaters too, these platforms are moving to almost live rentals that you can do so they're going into what voodoo used to be, which is a video catalog that You could buy a bunch of movies and TV shows that that might be where these movie companies are going to go. They're going to probably say, Well, if I don't get an exclusive deal with this streaming service, then I want my content to be paid to watch instead. So the licensing agreement probably be different the   Michael Hingson ** 23:08 I guess. The question is, over time, how much value will there be to having the theater experience, which is definitely going to have better sound, bigger screens and so on than you can possibly do with your television. Will that make a difference overall?   Maison Collawn ** 23:24 Well, the theater probably nostalgic, so there'll be some around, but there won't be as big business as it once was. The transition from streaming is putting the theaters to potentially go to another audience. So these they're going to go to independent movies now they're going to try to have a large audience to view it, that type of stuff. So it's going to be more nostalgic. It's going to be like what theaters are doing now. They're doing multi talent programs. They're not just doing plays, they're not just doing movies, they're doing concerts, they're doing talk shows, they're doing conferences to meet up their venue, because their venue is accessible to many different events. So these movie theaters might have to slightly tweak the mainstream movies maybe have the cater to other events for additional revenue. Do   Michael Hingson ** 24:26 you? Do you? Do you foresee the time that theater will just completely disappear? Or do you think that won't happen?   Maison Collawn ** 24:33 I don't think it'll just completely disappear. I think people want it for nostalgic. They would want it to have a more profound experience than just watching on the tablet. Yeah, now it's easier to watch on a smaller device, but who will want to spend a bunch of money on surround sound like. Stereo system just to be able to listen to it, kind of like most people don't have a home movie budget, like, you know, they don't have a room just dedicated to lounging around and having all this fancy sound equipment,   Michael Hingson ** 25:15 right? Yeah, I'm I tend to think that theater is going to be with us for a while, and that's going to change. It will change, and we'll it'll be interesting to see how it goes. But going back to to you a little bit. How have has autism progressed for you? How have you changed? And how is as you grow older, you know? How has that affected you, and autism   Maison Collawn ** 25:43 has affected me greatly. If I didn't have a kid in my mother and she didn't completely take the time to understand what I needed for education, I wouldn't be here now, now saying that I have transgressed to working with autism, so I have a job and doing it to keep working with autism, and then basically living with autism as a young adult, I've never accepted this part of who I am. It's not going to go away. It's definitely lacks impact now because of my executive function. You know, lessons that I've had over the years, the awareness, the self attention to dialog, knowing how people react to me because I'm not like them. So that type of interaction has now been shifted a little bit, because now I feel like I'm someone normal and just do my own thing. It's not really as a major aspect of my life compared to early childhood, and say, teen years.   Michael Hingson ** 27:03 So it is. It's a progression, but it is something ultimately that you accept as a part of you, which is, I think, probably the biggest issue for any of us with anything regarding us, is acknowledging you are what you are, and learning how best to utilize the gifts that you have, right?   27:25 Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 27:28 Which makes, which makes a lot of sense.   Maison Collawn ** 27:32 Yeah, I feel that people are not necessarily underestimated any right? And degree is really how make you as a person, benefit from what you have, right? So if you have limited in this area, well, just do everything you can to get better, and if it's not copacetic, at least make it somewhat easier. Yeah, then being totally difficult, but   Michael Hingson ** 28:02 that's a choice that you get to make, which is what's important, yes, and it's all about making a choice, and it's all about knowing that you have a choice that you get to make,   Maison Collawn ** 28:17 but your agency is really up to you to to a certain point, right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:23 Which is, which is something that makes a lot of sense. And we, we all need to do that.   Maison Collawn ** 28:31 Yes, if you don't, we might be left behind to catch up later in life, right? And if you never catch up, you might just be be lost among the ways   Michael Hingson ** 28:45 well, or you might not catch up in some ways, but you might catch up and surpass in other ways, which is, which is part of what it's all about. As, as I have said many times, we all have gifts, and what we need to do is to learn to use the gifts that we have, because we're going to have gifts other people don't have, and that's okay. Which is, which is, you know, pretty important to be able to deal with.   Maison Collawn ** 29:12 Well, you need to know how to use a gift in a specific way to convey a message, convey that message, and be able to really strengthen what you have or had just figure out something that will work for you. Mm, hmm. Doesn't have to be the drastic change in life that you're looking for. It could be something unexpected, and you just find it by accident, right? No,   Michael Hingson ** 29:40 no question about it, and it's really important just to progress where you can so What job do you have? Now? You said you have a job. What do you   Maison Collawn ** 29:53 do? So I'm in produce. I have worked up from a lead position for clues. Month to a assistant produce, assistant leader at Kroger. Oh, I am part of the management at night time, so my responsibility is to work from 130 to 10 o'clock at night and make sure the department gets closed correctly for the next day, for the morning people to be able to do the next stage of operations every day that we're supposed to do.   Michael Hingson ** 30:30 This is at a particular store, or is it more general than that?   Maison Collawn ** 30:34 I'm at a particular store part of a bigger it's called the program company, so it's part of a chain of stores right across the nation, right I'm at a particular store, 505, 10, which is mine. I'm actually able to, you know, I have people under me for the night time. And as a assistant leader, is my responsibility to make sure everything gets done, Delegate if need be, and also now that doing me to do as well and anything that might come up, like price reductions or questions that they can't answer, I need to be able to answer, and occasionally getting a manager involved if I can't help them, since I'm technically the representative management in that department at that time. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 31:31 so at least you are. You're progressing, you you had a job, you've been promoted. What's next?   Maison Collawn ** 31:41 Well, typically will be next is as an opening at one point, if I wanted to be a produce man, I don't find the assistant manager, I can probably do produce manager, but I'll probably want a smaller store. For me, Kroger's too big to be a produce manager because of the size compared to through line that I had. Through line was a lot smaller stores. It was more manageable. So if I was to be a manager, I probably want to choose a smaller store, but use my training that I have to be able to do that. Do   Michael Hingson ** 32:30 you find that when you're working at a larger store and for a larger company like Kroger, that also there's a lot more rigidity. Things are more rigid, and so there is not a lot of flexibility to maybe be creative or do things in a little bit different way than maybe the company would normally do it. Or is that even an issue that should come out in the corporate world?   Maison Collawn ** 32:57 So typically in retail, corporate is going to have the TOS, the standard practice that is applicable to everything you should do. They have everything mapped out time. So this comes back to business logistics. So their business science has already dictated how much time something should take and how much hours is allocated to do it. So anywhere you go there's not going to be, oh, more creatives. The only creative you could be is probably at a smaller local store level. So a local store probably more creative because they don't they're not dictated by the business science how to run your business efficient, right? With compared to food line, there is more flexibility on some things, because you are a smaller store, and sometimes you just don't have the space you might have to, you know, if pumpkins are on sale, you might have to keep them up longer to sell them down to the price, you know, it may extend the time. Then at Kroger, you might not be able to do that. They tell you to take it down. You have to take it down. And you just have to take the loss of profit, yeah. And seasonal change is pretty rigid over there, as soon as the season ends forever, Thanksgiving, Halloween, they'll change the next one, like almost two or three days before the actual holiday is,   Michael Hingson ** 34:28 well, the the other side of that, though, is seasonal kinds of things, you know that? I mean, you know seasonal, so you expect that when it ends, it ends. So a lot of things like that do happen, especially with seasonal kinds of products, so different kinds of vegetables, different kinds of fruits and so on, are only good at certain times a year, or other kinds of products that are only related by our society to Thanksgiving as opposed to Christmas. As opposed to Halloween. Yes. Well, so in addition to working at Kroger, which which definitely keeps you busy and helps pay the bills and keeps the lights on, we want you to be we want you light dependent people to have the lights on. It's okay. Tell me about your your podcast world. So along the way, you decided to get into podcasting, and I should tell people that you and I met through patapalooza. I've talked about patapalooza a lot on some of our podcast episodes, and we got to meet Mason at the latest patapalooza, which was a lot of fun. And so, as he mentioned, I have now, I've been on his podcast, and we talked a lot about assistive technology and so on. And now we get to to have Mason on ours, and get a lot of insights, which is a lot of fun. But tell me about you in podcasting. Why did you get involved in it? What do you think it brings to you in your life, and what do you bring to the rest of the world?   Maison Collawn ** 36:04 Well, podcasting is definitely unique, because, through my passion for TV, I was introduced to yearbook in eighth grade. Alright, so eighth grade, I want to do yearbook. Cool. I go to high school, and the intro to medications is yearbook, newspaper, TV production. Well, instead of choosing yearbook because there's too much graphic design spread and all that stuff, I went with TV production. So I took four years of TV production, and in doing that, I learned how to do studio set design, all that stuff. And I went to continue that after high school, but I didn't know how to format it correctly. So instead of podcasts, because the podcast is not first, my blog MC ani blog MC anime was first. I want to write about Anime Reviews. I want to write about my favorite shows. I went to Facebook to do it, and then I was like, Wait a second, my Facebook audience that I have is not they don't know this content. So I made a Facebook page blog and see anime. So that's kind of how my original Facebook got started was through different mediums to blog, and then that became podcaster after that, because I didn't want to do the blog anymore, but I still want to do something on brand, which, as I was doing before, podcasting has given me the insight to be able to talk. I've been behind the camera so much as it doesn't bother me. I have a personality that I want to share. I have a story that's compelling. And through be able to speak. It's like I'm overcoming a part of myself that tell people that I tell I shouldn't speak, that you won't be able to speak, you'll be not understanding other people because you don't connect them because you're socially inclined. And that's not true at all.   Michael Hingson ** 38:17 So how do you see the world of podcasting evolving over time.   Maison Collawn ** 38:24 The world of podcasting is good. It's already grown tremendously. There's probably going to be so much competitive market that only the top 5% will be would be able to make a living. But I see podcasting moving on towards a supplemental income unless you are able to go to your audience do a plug in business that is tied to your podcast. So solely doing podcast is not going to make pay the bills. Now, tying something in to your pockets, like getting discovery calls, like giving them services, selling product, affiliate marketing that's going to be able to convert that audience to revenue. So that's where podcast is going now in the world of everyone keeps launching a podcast. I guess it's just going to be a slice of the pod and the demographic is going to give to certain podcasts. True Crime is really good. Talk Shows are really good. But you have to identify which podcast is going to be you standing for, because you don't want to be a generic podcast if you don't have a good follow. The other   Michael Hingson ** 39:44 thing that I find interesting, we started unstoppable mindset back in 2021 but by beginning, roughly speaking, of 2023 although we had put two. We we had put video into every podcast, but the the folks that we were working with who are involved with patapalooza, Michelle Abraham and the amplify you group, suggested that we should also put the podcast up on YouTube, and as a result, make sure that it's a video podcast as well, because there's a growing audience that like to see the podcast. Now, I know that originally Steve Jobs and the whole idea behind the podcast was to have something that you could play anywhere. So if you're running or walking or out on demand, yeah, whatever you could listen. But do you think that there's a significant growing audience that need to have the video as well?   Maison Collawn ** 40:48 Yes, it's kind of the reason why I realized that YouTube is a good medium. Because everybody was asking me, do you have a YouTube channel? Like, okay, no, I don't, sorry, but I start backtracking all my old content. Wish I started videos so much sooner. There's so much easier to post. But instead, I backlog Season One, two and three as audio grams. I'm converting it to audio to video, but I'm using a visual component to make it video, to make it more stand out that is,   Michael Hingson ** 41:27 well, the the whole idea of having a video podcast, or having video for your podcast, is a little bit new, but it is, but it is certainly something that I think people have become accustomed to having around. So I'm not surprised at it. Radio became television. We we like to watch things, and so the result of all that is is that we need to make sure that we we cater to the audience, whatever audience it is that we are we're working toward. So having the ability to have a video podcast is is pretty important. And the other idea about having a video component to podcasting is that it's easy to do video. You can fairly inexpensively have a camera, a decent camera, you can have it be part of your repertoire of technology. But you also can have the the whole aspect of making sure that everybody can interact with the podcast in their own way. So it's just kind of fun. So having the ability to have video, I think is, is probably a pretty important thing. And I get actually probably more comments from people who have interacted with us on the YouTube channel than anything else, even though the the size of the audience is significantly less, but they're vocal.   Maison Collawn ** 43:22 Yeah, I found out my size of my audience is three different graphics. I have the podcast downloads, which is really good, but I also have the YouTube as a video component. And I'm also using video on my Facebook as well, but then I also have the short length content. So I am using short link content to promote it, and actually people are liking it. I'm getting a lot of hits. However, that's good, but short link content only promotes short link content, so you still got to promote the long form content. So it kind of becomes as well. I'm using the short link content to potentially get more people so they get introduced, they might be able to be interested in the small percentage converted. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 44:11 so the short link content is probably what most people would understand the terminology more with sound bites. It's not large, and it isn't the way to present the majority of the content, but it certainly is a way, if you do it right, to get people interested enough to then focus on what you're doing and go from there, yeah,   Maison Collawn ** 44:37 but I'm having lots of fun doing it. It's interesting how I'm doing my schedule now for uploads, I'm doing like three to four short link videos plus the episode upload. So that is drastically increase my social media uploading content. It's given a diverse. How actually, that's why I like about it. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 45:03 and do you think you're getting a lot of conversion from the short links to people listening to the whole podcast?   Maison Collawn ** 45:12 I'm definitely getting interested in different spikes of the episode, though, it's not as withstanding typically, to have a lot of good voting from short length content. You had it, let's go about the YouTube algorithm. You need 3 million subscribers on a short link content channel, 3 million views in all videos to be able to get monetized. That's a lot comparing that you only need a minimum of 1000 on a regular YouTube channel. So there's a different demographic. Percentage of you need a bunch more people to convert it. So it only helps to promote you, unless you're getting to like lots of followers on it. If you're not getting as many followers, it's just going to be like a good social media blast, that type of thing, right? So it's hard to convert, not super successful because I'm getting 1000 hits, okay, 1000 views, that's great, but that's not nearly enough to convert to the podcast, and it's a lot of people, but I need a lot more people to view it. Why do you think typically need five to 10,000 to be able to convert a larger base.   Michael Hingson ** 46:44 Why do you think that more of those people aren't transferring over and observing the longer podcast,   Maison Collawn ** 46:50 because their attention spans guided to the short lathe content so it the shortly content is good, gave you greater access to people, but you need a greater number of people watching you to can have a higher voting percentage.   Michael Hingson ** 47:10 Yeah, and the short links aren't going to give you real substance. What is,   Maison Collawn ** 47:17 what is obviously seen. So unless   Michael Hingson ** 47:20 you just can come up with something so creative that it draws people to the larger podcast. But that's just not what happens.   Maison Collawn ** 47:29 Yeah, that's why you have these social media influences. They're able to dictate an audience base on social media in a way that for all these people to these accounts, right? That's good for them, but they're not podcasters. It can be not everyone is,   Michael Hingson ** 47:49 yeah, mostly they're not. They. They do other things   47:55 well. So tell us is good in that way?   Michael Hingson ** 47:57 I'm sorry. Go ahead. Say again.   Maison Collawn ** 47:59 No, just podcasting is YouTube, is the long form content that was created at all. So yeah, that's kind of what a podcast can do   Michael Hingson ** 48:09 well. So tell us more about your podcast then, and what, what typically you do on it, the kinds of of people who you've had on and also, how can people find it and go investigate it?   Maison Collawn ** 48:27 So I've had a range of public professional speakers to feature speakers who are my friends, who like experts in that episode. So I like to incorporate people who are experts in the the thing we'll talk about, alright, that's kind of my philosophy. It's my job to highlight you, to speak in a way, speak on the subject. We speak it together, and you also present your perception of what it is. And to find me on the podcast, you can go to HTTPS dot slash, slash, at Facebook blog and see anime. You can also find me spell that. Spell that, if you would what Facebook website or just social media handle,   Michael Hingson ** 49:19 whichever you'd like, so that people can get to the podcast. So   Maison Collawn ** 49:23 an easy way to search it is that at sign capital, B, l, o, G, capital M, capital C, capital A, n, i, m, e, that is at blog MC anime, and that's an easy way to source me on Facebook and other navigations to it's my landing page for the link tree. You can get my social media and that type of stuff. And we   Michael Hingson ** 49:53 will also make sure that things are in the show notes, so that people can get it that way as well.   Maison Collawn ** 49:58 And of. At Facebook, com, slash blog, and see anime,   Michael Hingson ** 50:03 right? Cool. Well, this has been fun, and I guess I would ask if you have kind of any final thoughts or anything that you want people to to know, and if there are other things that they should be aware of about you, or any other kinds of ways they should be able to reach out to you. Why don't you give us any of that that you'd like?   Maison Collawn ** 50:26 Well, as I'm learning now, there is no barrier through different aspects of different lives. You have the power to be able to do something now, if it's not what you want, and you are in a limited option, say, a disability, or you're not as good, whatever, that's not going to stop you. You just have to keep trying until you figure something out that's be able to be successful for you and those resources out there to be able to do that, you just need to be able to connect to them, find someone who can help you if you're not able to navigate it, and just really have a strong ally and support base to move forward in what you're trying to do, or maybe the lack of and you're trying to get better,   Michael Hingson ** 51:23 but I would say each of us knows, or should know ourselves better than anyone else, so you know what you can do, and you can learn for yourself how much more you can do if you really work at it. So it is up to each of us to take a stand and work to move forward. Don't you think? Yes,   Maison Collawn ** 51:44 if you don't know what you need, then who would know for you? Yeah, powerful advocate that anyone can have.   Michael Hingson ** 51:57 There you go. Well, I want to thank you for being with us today. This has been a lot of fun. I think it's been very insightful, and I certainly appreciate your time, and I hope that everyone who has been with us appreciates all the insights and things that you bring to us. It's been a lot of fun talking about television and where it might go, and just media in general, and where people are, are going to be going to look for things in the future. It is. We're in a in an evolving world by any standard. So it's, it's fun to talk about that, and I appreciate your time to do that by any standard. I'm truth that any standard can happen. Well, we'd love to hear from all of you out there. If you've got any thoughts I'd love to hear from you, feel free to email me. Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, you're also welcome to go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael Hanks spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, and Mason, if people want to email you, do you have an email address, they can, can reach out to Yes.   Maison Collawn ** 53:14 So my corresponds to that blog, MC enemy. It's the same as before, B, L, G, m, c, a, n, i, m, e@gmail.com, and can you communicate about collaborations, interviews, insight, all the nine yards. Cool. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 53:37 I want to thank you for being here, and we appreciate it. If you listening out there, would give us a five star rating. Wherever you are watching or listening to this podcast, you have options to review. Please give us a five star rating. We value that greatly. And you, Mason and all of you listening out there, if you know of anyone who you think ought to be a good guest on our podcast, or if you'd like to come on unstoppable mindset, we want to hear from you. We love introductions. We love hearing from people. So please don't hesitate to let us know if you've got any thoughts for guests. We are always looking for people who want to come on and tell their stories and help us show the world that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. And with that, I want to thank you once again, Mason for being here with us today and and taking the time. Thanks very much for being here. You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Regular listeners to Unstoppable Mindset have heard me talk about a program called Podapalooza. This event takes place four times a year and is attended by podcasters, people who want to be podcasters and people who want to be interviewed by podcasters. Featured podcasters such as I get to talk with a number of people who sign up to be interviewed by us specifically.   This past Podapalooza saw me get to meet our guest this time, Susan Janzen. Susan wasn't even on of my original matches at Podapalooza, but she and I met and she told me she wanted both to be on Unstoppable Mindset and for me to come on her podcast, “Living & Loving Each Day”. Well, part one has happened. Susan has come on Unstoppable Mindset, and what a remarkable and unstoppable person she is.   Throughout her life she has been a professional singer and recording artist, a special education teacher, a realtor, now a life coach and she, along with her husband Henry, Susan has authored two books.   Make no mistake, Susan has performed all these life experiences well. She has been a singer for more than 30 years and still rehearses with a big band. She was a substitute special education teacher for six years and then decided to switch from teaching to selling real estate to help bring accessible housing to Alberta Canada.   Susan, as you will discover, is quite an inspiration by any standard. I look forward to receiving your comments and observations after you hear this episode. I am sure you will agree that Susan is quite Unstoppable and she will help you see that you too are more unstoppable than you think.       About the Guest:   Susan is an inspiring professional whose achievements span multiple fields. As a professional singer and recording artist, she enchanted audiences across North America. Her legacy as Edmonton's first Klondike Kate includes captivating performances from Las Vegas to the Alberta Pavilion during Expo 1987. Her versatility shines through her educational pursuits, earning a Bachelor of Education and influencing lives as a Special Education teacher. Alongside her husband, Dr. Henry Janzen, Susan co-authored two Amazon Best Sellers, further cementing her creative impact. Empowering Lives Through Coaching and Music Today, Susan combines her passions: Performs with the Trocadero Orchestra, a 17-piece Big Band. Empowers others as a Certified Happy for No Reason Trainer and Jay Shetty Life Coach. Hosts her podcast, Living & Loving Each Day Bridging Barriers sharing powerful stories of overcoming challenges.   Ways to connect Susan:   https://www.facebook.com/home.php https://www.youtube.com/@SusanJanzen www.linkedin.com/in/susan-janzen-b-ed-5940988 https://www.instagram.com/livingnlovingbridgingbarriers/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone. I am your host, Mike hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset podcast, unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and that's always so much fun. So we do some, we do sometimes talk about inclusion, and we do talk about diversity, and we talk about inclusion first, because diversity usually leaves out disabilities, but in this case, we we like inclusion because we won't let anyone leave out disabilities if they're going to talk about being inclusive. So there you go. But anyway, even more important than that is the unexpected, which is anything that doesn't have anything to do with diversity or inclusion, our guest today kind of has a little bit to do with all of that stuff. Susan Janzen is our guest. I'm assuming I'm pronouncing that right, perfectly, right? Yes, perfect. And Susan is up in Edmonton, Canada, and I met Susan a couple of weeks ago because both of us participated in the patapalooza program. Patapalooza, for those of you who may be listening to this on a regular basis, patapalooza is a program that happens four times a year where people come on who want to be podcasters, who are podcasters, or who want to be interviewed by podcasters. And we all kind of get together and we talk, and we listen to some lectures, and a bunch of us go off into breakout rooms and we get to chat with people. And when I was being scheduled, Susan was not one of the people who, in fact, got scheduled with me, but she came into the room and she said, I want to talk to you. And so there we are. And so Susan, welcome to unstoppable mindset where we can talk.   Susan Janzen ** 03:12 Well, so glad and so glad to be in a room with you here on my screen. This is great. Oh, it's fun.   Michael Hingson ** 03:18 My door is closed so my cat won't come in and bug me, because every so often she comes in and and what she wants is me to go pet her while she eats, but I'm not going to let her do that while the podcast is going on. So there you go. But anyway, it's good to be here, and I'm glad that you're here with us, and I understand that it's kind of nice and crisp and chilly where you are right now. No surprise, we are much more weak,   Susan Janzen ** 03:45 yeah, much warmer. There we had in Alberta. We're always in Edmonton, Alberta. We're called the sunny province because it's doesn't matter how cold it gets. We always have blue cumulus clouds and beautiful blue sky   Michael Hingson ** 04:00 and so. And today you have and today it's my cold.   Susan Janzen ** 04:04 It's, well, it's minus 10 with a skiff of snow. But you know what? Minus 10 here is? Actually, that's kind of my prerequisite for skiing, like, if it's minus 10 or warmer, I'm good, because I'm not a very good added skier. That's why   Michael Hingson ** 04:20 my brother in law used to ski on a regular basis. He in fact, used to take trips and take tours and and allow people to hire him as their tour guide to go over to France to do off peace school in the else. And he is also a cabinet maker and general contractor, and Gary's philosophy always is everything stops in the winter when there is an opportunity to ski. So   Susan Janzen ** 04:50 that would be a beautiful wouldn't that be there? Like the perfect job to probably be a golf pro in the summer in a ski tour? Third guide in the winter. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:01 he he was a, he was a contractor in the summer. Now he's doing more contracting all year round. He still skis, but he's not a certified mountain ski guide in France anymore. I think, I assume that kind of runs out after a while, but he hasn't really taken people on trips there for a while. But anyway, we're really glad you're here. I would love to start by maybe you telling us a little bit about the early Susan, growing up and all that well,   05:27 with the early Susan, that sounds great. Sure,   Susan Janzen ** 05:28 let's do   05:30 it that was a long,   Michael Hingson ** 05:32 long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. But let's do it anyway, exactly,   Susan Janzen ** 05:36 exactly. So way back in the day I was, I was actually my history is, is from I had a mother who was a singer, and she and I, I'm also professional singer, but she, she was my influence when I was younger, but when I was born, it was out those terminology at that time was called out of wedlock. Oh my gosh, you know, so bad. And so she was a single mom, and raised me as a very determined and and stubborn girl, and we had our traumas, like we went through a lot of things together, but we survived, and we're and we're, you know, all the things that I went through, I was on in foster care for a little while, and I kind of did a whole bunch of different things as a kid, and went on my own When I was 15. So I left home when I was 15, so I figured I'd be on my own. I figured I was mature enough to just go on my own, right like that made was made total sense and perfect sense to me at the time, and now I realize how young 15 is, but but finished high school and went to on the road and was a singer for like, over 25 years. That's better that. And, yeah. And so that's what I that was kind of like the childhood part of me. And that's, I think, what's putting me into all these play. I was in a convent for a while with   Michael Hingson ** 06:54 honey, and so you, you went off and you sang, you said, for 25 years, yes,   Susan Janzen ** 07:01 and I'm still singing. I'm still singing. That was Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 07:06 And I was reading that you sing with a seven piece, 17 piece, Big Band orchestra. I do.   Susan Janzen ** 07:12 It's called a Trocadero orchestra. It's so it's the whole horn section, the the rhythm section. It's so much fun, I can't tell you, so I we do that. We don't gig a lot because a lot of people don't want to put out the money for an ATP spend. But we do rehearse a lot, and we do the big, big events in the city. It's really fun. What kind of music? So big bands, so 40s, yes, and so all the Oh, exactly. We can do the Latin stuff I sing that's in mucho the same mucho is one of my songs. And I do, you know, there's so many, like, so many really good songs, but they're older songs that kind of the Frank Sinatra kind of era songs, all the big band stuff. I've   Michael Hingson ** 07:56 always thought that Bing Crosby was a better singer than Frank Sinatra. That's gonna probably cause some controversy. But why that?   Susan Janzen ** 08:04 I wonder. But you know what big, big Crosby was a little bit before, and then Frank Sinatra was called the crooner, and I think it was because of his blue eyes and how he looked. I think he took on a different persona. I think that's why I think it was more the singer than more the singer than the music. Maybe you think, I don't know. I   Michael Hingson ** 08:25 haven't figured that out, because Bing Crosby was, was definitely in the 40s. Especially, was a more well known, and I think loved singer than Frank. But by the same token, Frank Sinatra outlive Bing Crosby. So, you know, who knows, but I like being Crosby, and I like his music, and I like some Frank Sinatra music as well. I mean, I'm not against Frank Sinatra, yeah. I think, personally, the best male singer of all time. Yes, still, Nat King Cole   Susan Janzen ** 09:00 Oh, and I do? I do the dot I do orange colored sky neck and Cole's daughter, yeah, this one on my brain. Her name Natalie Cole, exactly. Yeah. But Nat King Cole was a really good singer, so I do agree with you in that. And we do some that can cool stuff. I do a lot of Ella Fitzgerald too, as well.   Michael Hingson ** 09:24 Yeah. Well, I, I've always liked and just felt Nat King Cole was the best of now, female singers, probably, again, a lot of people would disagree, but I really think that Barbara Streisand is, oh, there is.   Susan Janzen ** 09:37 I love her. Yeah, yeah, I did. I actually, I did an album. In the 719, 78 I recorded an album, and the main song on there was evergreen by Barbra Streisand. I   Michael Hingson ** 09:48 love that tune. Yeah, I was. I just have always liked Barbara Streisand. One of my favorite albums is Barbara Streisand at the forum. She James Taylor. And I forget who the third person was. Did a fundraiser for George McGovern in 1972 and I just always thought that that was Barbara's Best Album.   Susan Janzen ** 10:10 Ah, so such a voice. I mean, she could see anything. Yeah. Beautiful voice, yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, we're on the same page, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 10:19 Well, that's pretty cool. But so you, you grew up, you sang and and then what happened to you, or what did you do? What, what else occurred in your life that we should know about?   Susan Janzen ** 10:31 Oh, there's so many things. So then I, yeah, I know it's crazy. So I grew up, I think I still, I'm not quite there yet. I'm still growing. And then I when at 18, I got married, and I went on the road with a guitar player, and for 10 years, and then we had two kids. And then after five more years on the road, I actually got a divorce. And so I was six years as a single mom with two babies. The kids were, like, 11 months apart. They were really close. And so then that's when I did all my bigger gigs here in Edmonton, though, those are the like. I was hired as the first ever local Klondike Kate in Edmonton, Alberta. We have Klondike. We used to have Klondike games as our major summer fair, and it was a really big deal. It's kind of like the Calgary Stampede we had the Edmonton on Lake Bay, and so I was the representative of the city of Edmonton for two years. And I actually did it my first year. They made me audition for my second year. So I won it the second year. So I was the first ever two years in a row. And I represented the city all over North America. Actually, I sang, I met Muhammad Ali, I met some really great people, and I sang with Baba patola, did some commercials with him, went down to Vegas and played one of his stages. So I did a lot of really fun things in those two years, and convert a lot of commercials and a lot of telethons. So that was really fun. And then, and then, when that was over, that's when I got remarried to a wonderful man, and he was at University of Alberta, and he was a professor in psychology, education, psychology and so and I'm happy to say that we're just celebrated last week our 36th wedding anniversary. That's how old I am. Michael, congratulations.   Michael Hingson ** 12:18 Well, my wife, my wife and I were married for 40 years, and she passed in November of 2022, so, oh, so I I know what it's like to be married for a long time. I loved it. Love it. Still wonderful memories. It's unfortunate that all too many people don't ever get to have the joy of being married for such a long time. Yes,   Susan Janzen ** 12:43 and happily married, right? Like happily married? Yeah, that's the cavid.   Michael Hingson ** 12:50 Yeah. It's important to to acknowledge the happiness part of it. And I've got 40 years of memories that will never go away, which is great.   Susan Janzen ** 12:58 Nobody can take that away from you, that is for sure. They can't take that away from me. Don't take that away from me. That's   Michael Hingson ** 13:06 right, exactly. So that's that's pretty cool. So you do a lot of rehearsing and a lot of singing. What else do you do in the world today? So also   Susan Janzen ** 13:15 in the world today, I am, and I have been since 2003 I'm a residential real estate expert, so I'm a realtor, and I deal specifically with accessible and barrier free homes. So that's kind of my I was a special ed teacher. Actually, I should squeeze that in there for six years I was, I got my degree in education and with a special ed teacher in secondary ed. So all my kids were junior and senior high. And then when I came out of that, I took up the after I was teaching. I took real estate license, and I got it and I I just felt like I understood anybody with mobility challenges and with any other challenges. And so I took that extra time that is needed and necessary to to help them find homes and to sell.   Susan Janzen ** 14:02 What got you started down that road   Susan Janzen ** 14:05 at the time, I was teaching for six years, and when in Edmonton, I don't know why it was just here. So I was 2003 when I quit. So I had been teaching from the late 1990s and it was like I was subbing, but I was not getting a full time position in that and my Evanston public school board said your your file is glowing. We just don't have any spots for you. So I think it was a government funding issue. And so I ended up just thinking, I don't want to sub forever. I want to get my own classroom, and I want to have my own and I would, I would teach for six months at a time in a school. So it wasn't like I was jumping around crazy but, but I want, really wanted my own classroom. And so when that wasn't happening after six years, I thought I'm going to write the real estate license exam, and if I pass it the first time, that was my Gage, because no, they say the word was that you don't pass it the first time. Everyone has to write it to a. Three times before they pass my rule. For my own ruler for me was to say, if I take the exam, pass it the first time, I will make that move. And that's what happened so and then I just took up with accessible, barrier free homes and that specialty. So   Michael Hingson ** 15:17 was there any specific motivation that caused you to really deal with accessibility and accessible homes and so on.   Susan Janzen ** 15:25 Yes, and at the time, and just actually, my mom had been in a walker and on oxygen. I had quite a few friends who had mobility issues. And then just shortly after that, when I was a realtor already, and my daughter had a baby, and her baby at eight weeks old had a near SIDS incident. So she was eight weeks old, and Candace went to do the dishes one night at nine o'clock at night, and came back and calea is her daughter's name, and she was like blue in the crib. She was she had to be revived. So that was terrifying for all of us, and so it was wonderful news that she did survive, but she had occipital and parietal damage, so she has cortical vision impairment and also cerebral palsy, but she's she's thriving and loving it, and so that actually kind of Got me even doing more accessible homes, because now I'm a grand ambassador, and what's that called when you get out on the street and yell at people for parking in handicap stalls? What is that smart person? A smart person, and I was just passionate about that. I wanted to fix things and to try to make things easier for people as they should be, without having to ask in the first place. So yeah, so that's kind of the other reason I stuck to the that that area in real estate, and I just had the patience for it. I had the knowledge and the understanding and I and I really it was just easy for me because I did. I think it was because the passion I had for that area, and I just love doing it and helping other people   Michael Hingson ** 17:05 well. So how old is your granddaughter now? Now she is 12. Okay, she's 12. Now, does she walk, or does she use a wheelchair?   Susan Janzen ** 17:13 She uses, um, well, because she is as tall as me now, oh, she's using more a wheelchair more often, okay? She She walks with a walker. She can't walk on her own at all, and I think it's because of the vision, right? She if she could, you know, yeah, if she could see, she sees light. It's amazing how that how the brain works. She sees lights, and she sees color. And I can put up any color to her, and she'll identify it right every time, every time, but she doesn't see me. She doesn't see my face. Well, tell   Michael Hingson ** 17:45 me a little bit more about cortical vision. You. You and I talked about that a little bit. So Lacher, yeah, explain that to people. It's   Susan Janzen ** 17:52 really interesting because it's something that it's not readily out there, like you don't hear about it a lot. And even as a special ed teacher, I can tell you that I was trained in all of the different areas of special needs, but that did not come up for me, so this was new when I found out about it, and it just means that her eyes are fine. There's nothing wrong with her eyes, but her she's not processing so the information is coming through her eyes, but she's not processing that information. But she, like I said, if I turn out the light, she'll go, oh, the lights are off. Or if I put the lights on, she'll look up and be surprised at it. She you can tell that she knows. And then I used to put her on my counter in the kitchen, and I had these LED lights underneath my counter, my kitchen counter, and it had all these, these 12 different colors of light, and so I would put the blue on, I'd say, calea, what color is that? And she'd go blue, and I'd say, What color is that, and she'd go red. So it would be variable colors that I'd offer up to her, and she wouldn't get them right every single time. So that's the cortical vision impairment, and where they if she needs to pick up something off of a dresser, off the floor, for instance, it has to be on like a black background, and then she can see it, no problem. But if you have a whole bunch of things on the ground or on the table and ask her to pick up something, that's too much information for her, so she can't just zero in on that one area, right? So it's harder for her. So you just have to make things more accessible, so that she can see things you know, in her way.   Michael Hingson ** 19:25 But this is a different thing than, say, dyslexia, which is also you can see with your eyes, but your brain is in processing the characters and allowing you to necessarily truly read it exactly. And   Susan Janzen ** 19:38 that's that different part of the brain, where it's analyzing the the at least you can you can see it, but you process it differently. That's exactly right where she can't see. So then that's why I was thinking, if she could see better, I think she would be walking, maybe with a cane or with a walker, better. But right now, in that. Stage, we can point her in the right direction and tell her to go, and she'll go, but she's not sure where she is.   Michael Hingson ** 20:08 But that clearly wasn't the start of you doing real estate sales, dealing with accessible homes, but it must have certainly been a powerful motivator to continue with exactly   Susan Janzen ** 20:20 that, exactly that, because my mom was on oxygen, and she had, she had a lot of issues, mobility challenges. And I had a lot of friends who who were also like in that older age group that had mobility challenges. And those are the people that that were, may say, moving from a two story to a bungalow because they couldn't make manage the stairs anymore.   Michael Hingson ** 20:41 So how do we get people like the Property Brothers? Do you ever watch them and you know who they are? Oh yes, oh yes. We get them to do more to deal with building accessibility into the homes that they built. Because the the issue is that we have an aging population in our world. And it just seems like it would be so smart if they built accessibility and rights from the outset in everything that they do, because the odds are somebody's going to need it   Susan Janzen ** 21:11 exactly. And that's the for the forward thinking, right? You know? And it's interesting that some people, some builders, have told me that just to make a door frame three inches wider does not cost you any more money. But the point, the point is just that it's getting all the contractors on board to to come out of the way that they've been doing it for so long. You know, sadly,   Michael Hingson ** 21:38 yeah, my wife was in a chair her whole life, she was a teacher, paraplegic. Oh, so you know, I know about all this really well. And in fact, when we built this house, we we built it because we knew that to buy a home and then modify it would cost a bunch of money, one to $200,000 and in reality, when we built this house, there was no additional cost to make it accessible, because, as you point out, making doors wider, lowering counters, having ramps instead of stairs, all are things that don't cost more If you design it in right from the outset, exactly,   Susan Janzen ** 22:24 exactly, and that's that's the problem. Yeah, that's the problem. I mean, that's exactly the problem.   Michael Hingson ** 22:29 Yeah. Now we built our home in New Jersey when we moved back there, and we did have a little bit of an incremental extra cost, because all the homes in the development where we found property were two story homes, so we did have to put in an elevator, so it's about another $15,000 but beyond that, there were no additional costs, and I was amazed that appraisers wouldn't consider the elevator to be an advantage and an extra thing that made The home more valuable. But when we did sell our home in New Jersey, in fact, the elevator was a big deal because the people who bought it were short. I mean, like 5253, husband and wife, and I think it was her mother lived with them, and we put the laundry room up on the second floor where the bedrooms were, and so the elevator and all that were just really wonderful things for everyone, which worked out really well.   Susan Janzen ** 23:30 Oh, that's perfect. And that's, that's kind of what I do here in evident that I try to match the people who are selling homes that have been retrofitted and made more, you know, accessible. I try to put out the word that this is available, and I try to get the people in who need that. I feel like a matchmaker, a house matchmaker, when it comes to that, because you don't want to waste that like some people, actually, they'll some people who don't understand the situation have chairless For instance, they they're selling their house, and they rip out the chair. Then it's like, well, call me first, because I want to find you somebody who needs that, and that's exactly what they're looking for. Okay, so that's kind of where, how I I operate on my my job   Michael Hingson ** 24:15 well, and I will tell you from personal experience, after September 11 for the first week, having walked down 1400 63 stairs and was stiff as a board for a week, I used the elevator more than Karen did. Oh,   Susan Janzen ** 24:28 at that, but you survived that. And that was, that's amazing, but it   Michael Hingson ** 24:35 was, yeah, you know, you have to do what you gotta do. I think that there's been a lot more awareness, and I I've been back to the World Trade Center since, but I didn't really ask, and I should have, I know that they have done other things to make it possible to evacuate people in chairs, because there were a couple of people, like, there was a quadriplegic. Um. Who I believe is a distant cousin, although I never knew him, but he wasn't able to get out, and somebody stayed with him, and they both perished. But I think that they have done more in buildings like the World Trade Center to address the issue of getting people out.   Susan Janzen ** 25:17 It's just too bad that we have to wait for that, things, terrible things like that to happen to crazy awareness. That's the only bad thing. What? It's not like, it's not like we're not yelling on the streets. It's not like we're not saying things. It's just that people aren't listening. And I think it depends on if you're to a point where you are actually in a wheelchair yourself, or you have a child who's in a wheelchair now, now they understand, well,   Michael Hingson ** 25:43 yes, it is getting better. There's still a lot of issues. Organizations like Uber still really won't force enforce as they should. All the rules and regulations that mandate that service dogs ought to be able to go with Uber passengers who have a need to have a service dog, and so there, there's still a lot of educational issues that that have to occur, and over time will but I think that part of the issue was that when 2001 occurred, it was the right time that then people started to think about, oh, we've gotta really deal with this issue. It is an educational issue more than anything else. That's true. That's   Susan Janzen ** 26:26 true. There's a fellow here in Edmonton that, and I'm sure it's elsewhere too, but one particular fellow that I know, and he builds, they're called Garden suites. Like in Edmonton, we're kind of getting so much the population here is standing so quickly that the city is allowing zoning for they're called Garden suites, so they're just but he goes in and puts in like a two story behind the home, and it's 100% accessible, barrier free, and no basement. And so we're encouraging people to buy those homes, and they don't cost as much because they're quite a bit smaller. They're only two bedroom but they have everything that anybody would need if they had mobility challenges. And so it's it's perfect for either people who have a son or a daughter who is getting close to being an adult and they want their more a little more freedom and independence. They could use that suite at the back. Or I know some adults in particular who are have mobility challenges, and they just physically move to that new place in the backyard and rent out their home right to make home revenue.   Michael Hingson ** 27:31 Since it's two stories, what do they do to make it accessible? They   Susan Janzen ** 27:34 have, they have an elevator. It's a zero entry, and it's 100% everything in it is specifically so you move in, walk, go right in, and it's, it's accessible. That's how he does it, right from scratch. Cool, super cool. And so we're trying to, I'm trying to promote that here, out here, because I, I know the fellow who builds them, and it makes sense. I mean, even if you want to have a revenue property, right? And you want to build that in your backyard and then rent it out to somebody who needs that, then that'd be perfect.   Michael Hingson ** 28:06 It makes, makes a lot of sense to do that. It does. Mm, hmm. Well, do you think that all of the knowledge that you gained in special education and so on has helped you a great deal in this new, more, newer career of doing real estate sales.   Susan Janzen ** 28:25 Oh, 100% because it's just an understanding. It's just having the compassion and understanding what not, because I haven't experienced it myself, but I do understand what they may be going through. It's just an enlightening for me, and I I just appreciate what they're going through, and I am, you know, I want to make it easier for them, you know, to make any decisions that they have to make. And I try. I don't like, I don't waste their time like, I make sure I go preview the homes first, make sure that it's something and I FaceTime them first to say, is this something you want to even come out to? So I don't want them to be wasting their time or their energy just trying to get to a place that's not accessible,   Michael Hingson ** 29:05 right? Mm, hmm. We moved from New Jersey to Novato California, which is in the North Bay, which is now being just bombarded by rain, but Northern California in 2002 and when we started looking for homes, we tried to find a place where we could build, but there was just no place up there where there was land to build a home. So we knew we had to buy a home and modify it. And one day, we went with a realtor, and he took us to a house, and it was clearly a house that wasn't going to work. The this there were, there was no room to put in a ramp, there were lots of steps, and we pointed out all the reasons that it wouldn't work. And then he took us to another home that was really like the first one. We went to four different homes and. We kept saying, this won't work, and here's why, and it was like a broken record, because it was all the same. I'm so sorry. Yeah, you know, I realized that not everyone has the opportunity to really understand and learn about wheelchair access and so on. But people should focus more on on doing it. It wasn't like I needed a lot for the house to be usable by me as a blind person, but, but Karen certainly did. And what we eventually found another realtor took us to a place, and what was really interesting is we described what we wanted before we started looking at homes with Mary Kay, and she said, I have the perfect home. You'll have to modify it, but I have the perfect home. And of course, after our experiences with the other realtors, we were a little bit pessimistic about it, but she took us to a home, and there was a step up into it, but that's easy to modify. Then you go through an entryway, and then you can go left into the kitchen or right, and if you went right, you ended up in a little Nexus where there were three bedrooms, oh, and it wasn't even a hallway. There were just three bedrooms. And so it was, it was perfect. We still had to make significant modifications, but it really was a home that was modifiable by any standard, and we, we bought it. It was perfect   Susan Janzen ** 31:44 for what we needed. I'm so glad I love that's a good start. That's a good story here. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 31:50 she, she got it and and it's so important. And I think Realtors need to be aware of the fact that we deal with a very diverse population, and it's important to really understand all of the various kinds of people that you might have to deal with, but we just don't always see that. Needless to say,   Susan Janzen ** 32:08 that's true. Unfortunately, that's so true. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 32:14 So do you how? How much time do you spend doing real estate? Is that a full time job for you.   Susan Janzen ** 32:20 Well, it always has been. I've been full time, full service, so I'm on call, really is kind of what it boils down to. But I've also pursued, in the last since COVID, I've pursued coaching courses because that's something I'd like to get into. And so now I'm a certified Jay Shetty resilience and confidence coach, and so I'm kind of leading, I think, as I age and as I, you know, getting tired of I've been a realtor 21 years now, so I would like to eventually slow down in that area and focus more on coaching people. That's kind of where I'm leaning now a little bit, but I'm still full time up there. And singer   Michael Hingson ** 33:02 and singer and your coach, yeah. So do you ever see your coaching customers? Just check, no no   Susan Janzen ** 33:10 checking. I send them the recording. I'll send them my CD. You can go and get you could get two of my CDs on iTunes, so I'll send them there, or else tell them one of my geeks.   Michael Hingson ** 33:20 Oh, cool. Well, I'll have to go look you up on iTunes. I have, yes, oh, it   Susan Janzen ** 33:25 is a Christmas there's a Christmas one there. I think you'd like that. Michael, is it really cool?   Michael Hingson ** 33:29 And I have Amazon unlimited music. I wonder if. I'll bet there too. You   Susan Janzen ** 33:33 just take in. Susan Jansen, and I come up. I have the greatest love of all is my one, and the other one's called the gift for you, and that's my Christmas split. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 33:41 cool, yeah. Well, we will. We will check them out, by all means. Well, so when do you rehearse? When do you when do you do singing?   Susan Janzen ** 33:52 Well, the big band rehearses every Saturday. So we, we all get together and we do. So it's, I just, you know, I love the rehearsals, like it's so much fun for me. So that's what we do with my other singing. I still get I still get hired, especially during the summer festival time, I get hired to come back and we call it throwback Klondike dates. And I have one costume of all my costumes that were made for me this you can imagine my costumes is called that Kate were like, a lot of sequins, full dresses with the big furry bottoms and then the feathery hats. So I used to wear those. So I still have one costume that still fits me, and so I use that every summer, and I go out, and I'm asked to do different functions during the summer, and then during all throughout the year, I do parties, you know, like, what if somebody hires me to do a birthday or some special celebration? I still do that. Okay, so   Michael Hingson ** 34:47 how often does the big band actually go out and perform and earn some money? Or does that happen much at all? Not that much because of   Susan Janzen ** 34:54 the size of us, right? Yeah. So, you know, we've done, you know, like the 100th anniversary of Arthur. Is a dance floor. And so we did their 100th anniversary celebration. And can you imagine, like the dance floor was just, it was like I was watching my own show from from the stage, because they we did all the Latin tunes, and they came out and danced the Sava and the rambas and the tangos and everything. It was beautiful. So I got to so that was a really fun gig for us, and then, and so we do other big and larger functions, like in ballroom. So you can imagine a conference, perhaps that's having a big celebration will be the ballroom entertainment. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 35:32 you know, you're in Canada. Can't you get Michael Buble to hire you guys? Ooh,   Susan Janzen ** 35:35 wouldn't that be nice? He's got his own man. He's   Michael Hingson ** 35:39 got, yeah, he does. I know these old charts and yeah, but he occasionally brings to the choir. I know that we, we went to see him well. Karen passed in November of 2022 we actually went to see him in Las Vegas in May of 2022 that was the last concert that we got to do together. And we ended up being relocated from up in the balcony in what Henry, what Harry Belafonte, would call the scholarship section. We We got moved down to the orchestra pit, and we were like in row 18, even two rows in front of Michael's family, but we ended up being there for the concert. It was wonderful. Oh, and he walked out and shook hands with everyone while he was singing, and all that was a lot of fun. But, yeah, he does have his own band, but music's great,   Susan Janzen ** 36:36 so good, and he does that so well. Like my favorite show is the voice. And so he's a judge on there too, and I really appreciate input. And he comes off very Canadian. I think he's this is very friendly and very silly and fun and and just really caring too. So I think he represents us well on the voice.   Michael Hingson ** 36:56 He does not take himself too seriously, which is so important, I think for so many people, so true. He does so well with that. So true. Well, so we mentioned pada Palooza, and you have a podcast. Well also, and you, you've written a book, right?   Susan Janzen ** 37:14 Yes. So I've co authored a few books, and then, plus my husband and I Well, my husband actually is a psychologist. He wrote the book, I typed it, and then he gave me credit, because I kept putting in my own stories and and he would, he was kind enough to put my name on the cover. So and we wrote a book called living and loving each day. And that's how, why I made my podcast that same name, and, and, but when we wrote it, the full title is living and loving each day success in a blended family. Because at that time when we got married, I had the two children, and they were just under you know, they were nine and 10 years old, eight and nine years old, and his boys, he had three boys that were older, like teenagers, and so and his wife passed away from cancer. So we all got together. And I mean blended families, that's a whole nother world, you know, if you're not used to that, that's something else. And, and then it turned out that his oldest son was diagnosed schizophrenic, so that was something that we dealt with together as a family. And, and, and then yeah we so we just felt like this was our life, and we wanted to share that. But that's like combining two separate families together, and how that works, and the dynamics of that. So he wrote some great, great stuff about how to deal with in laws, X laws and outlaws. He called them Yeah, and how to deal with every family celebration, Christmas and Easter, everything you know, like, there's so many things that come up even think about until you're in that situation, like, how do you do it? Right?   Michael Hingson ** 38:52 But it's so great that you two made the choice to do it and to blend the families and not give up on each other, or any of the people in the family, exactly,   Susan Janzen ** 39:04 and that's in that's huge for me. And I can share a little story with you. Feel like the view is okay. So this is kind of cool. So this so when I was singing, and I was just at the end of my second year as Klondike Kate, and I was doing a lot of gigs, like a lot of singing and and I was just kind of cut, you know how they like you're, you see on the calendar that they're you're tuning down here. The end of the year is coming. The end of the gigs are coming, and you're not in that role anymore because they chose a new Klondike. And so those six years that I was a single mom, my husband now had his own radio show, and it was called that's living and there was a show out of Edmonton, and it actually won Canadian awards for this was a talk show during the day for one and a half hours, and it had two psychologists, and the psychiatrists were the hosts. And so on the Tuesdays and Thursdays with Dr Jan, that was my husband and I used. To listen every day because I had, I was a single mom. I really didn't have a lot of support, and I worked every night singing so and I had my kids all day. So it was just like my favorite show to listen to. And when I remember listening to and I heard this Dr Johnson's voice, I always thought he had, like, long white hair, long white beard, so he was just so calm and so compassionate and so smart that he was just such a I never knew what he looked like, but that's what I pictured him looking like. And then it turned out that right at the end of my my singing, I remember listening one day, and he was on the air, and he I was going to my agents I was driving down Main Street in Edmonton, and I remember going to my agent's office to see what was next for me, like, what's next? What next gig do I have? And I remember he came on the air that day, and he said, You know what, folks, I have to let you know that his he said, My wife passed away. And he said, My boys and I've been grieving since the day we found out six months ago. But I need to be here to be of service to you, and I need to be on the air to help you today. And hope you don't mind. I hope you understand, you know he was, you know, and it was, it was so emotional, and like I was sitting in my van, like crying, thinking, because I'd been listening to him all those years, and I just felt so sad for him. And then I kind of, I'm a God fearing woman, and I said, Lord, why can't I meet a man like that that needs me as much as I need him. That was my outside prayer. And you know what? It wasn't even a week and a half later, I get a call from that station, CTC, saying, hey, Sue, can you do a Christmas Bureau fundraiser for us? He said, There's no pay involved, but you can be MC and and, you know, help us. You know, raise money for the Christmas funeral. And so I was happy to do that. And so that's how, how I met my husband was when at that particular function. So that was kind of my, you know, and like, just an answer to prayer and something that I really, you know, it was interesting how, how that all happens when you are very specific and, and so that's how we met. And, yeah, so we've been together ever since 36 years now. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 42:06 as I tell people, you know, Karen passed away two years ago, and I don't move on from Karen, but I move forward exactly because I think if I I've always interpreted Moving on is you go on and you forget, and I don't, and I don't want to forget, so I move forward Exactly. And besides that, I know that if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I gotta be a good kid, or she's going to get me one way or another. Yeah, that's right. And so, you know, as I, as I said to somebody yesterday, I don't even chase girls, so you know, it works out very well, but you know, the the the issue is that those 40 years of memories are always going to be there, and there's so much to learn from that. And again, it's all about choice. This is so important well, so tell us more about the podcast on how long have you been doing it? How did that start? And and so on,   Susan Janzen ** 43:03 right? So I was actually my daughter has this a nonprofit where she was she works with other parents who have children with adaptive needs, and so she asked if I would interview her parents just to find out about parents stories and you. I'm sure you understand where you want to just tell your story, what happened without having to explain. And, you know, I don't know, just give all the, you know, the background to everything. They just wanted to share this story and to be heard on with no judgment and with compassion. So I said, No, I can do that. I can interview them, and I want to hear their stories. And they need, I think they need to share them those stories too, for whatever happened, you know, with whatever incident happened with their children. So, so I said to my daughter, I sure I'll do a podcast for them, you know, and just interview them. And then I only did it through zoom and not knowing anything about how to do that, I've been MC for fundraisers, but I don't know how to do a podcast. So I did that the best I could, using Zoom. And then I when I was done it, I liked it so much, I thought, well, I better figure out how to do this, like the right way, right? So I actually did take a course. And there was a lady out of Toronto that was giving a course called cash in on camera. And so she talked about how to set up restream, how to set up air table, how to do your mic, your lighting, and all of the things that you need to consider. And so I took that course. And so then I interviewed a few more people and a few experts for her, for her. So that's kind of how I got started, with just focusing specifically on on my daughter's audience. So those parents.   Susan Janzen ** 44:40 And how long ago was that?   Susan Janzen ** 44:41 That was, what, two years ago now total, because I've been doing my podcast now for just over a year.   Susan Janzen ** 44:48 And do you how many episodes a week? Do you do one?   Susan Janzen ** 44:51 I do one, but I, you know what? I've got 140 that I've done. And I'm thinking, I've got quite. If you in the books, you know how that works. Where you report I'm you, Michael, give me advice on this. So I have three recorded that are waiting for me, but plus I have 14 others that are on my book to interview like I'm getting a lot of interest and people who want to be on my podcast, which is wonderful, but then I got, now gotta figure out how to do that, or how to actually, you know, organize it. How often should I be putting out podcasts? Like every three days now, like otherwise, we're going to be going into middle of 2025 I don't know.   Michael Hingson ** 45:33 I started for accessibe, doing unstoppable mindset in August of 2021 when I started using LinkedIn seriously to look for podcast guests in 2022 and I use sales navigators, so we profile authors or coaches or whatever, and we'll send out emails saying, I saw your profile. It looks like you'd be an interesting guest. Would you love to explore coming on unstoppable mindset, what we do is then we, when they're willing, we schedule a meeting and we we talk about it, and if they want to come on, which usually they do, then we actually schedule the time, and I ask them to send me some information, as you know, like a series of questions that they want to talk about, a bio, other things like that, but we got a pretty significant backlog. And I've learned that a lot of people with very successful podcasts do have backlogs. Oh, good. There's nothing wrong with that. Okay, good. It's better to have them. You can always add an extra podcast if you want to play more, but we do two a week now, and just today, we published episode 286, wow. Since August of 2021, and so it's a lot of fun. I enjoy it, and I get to meet so many people. And as I tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as anyone who listens to the podcast, I'm not doing my job well. I agree, quite invested in it. I think it's so important to be able to do that. So the bottom line is that we do get a lot of interesting people. I talked to someone just the other day who is very much involved in energy and healing and so on. Well, she also was a singer in Australia, had a very serious auto accident, and kind of went away from seeing for a while, and then she realized she started doing a lot of creating, of affirmations, but then she put the affirmations to music, and she points out that, you know, the lyrics are in the left side of the brain, but the music's in the right side, and they actually work together, and so by having them in a musical form, you you're more likely to really be able to internalize them. So she even sang one for us on the earth, a lot of fun, but, but the bottom line is that, you know, it's she also does her own podcast, which is kind of fun, but there is so much to learn from so many different people. I've had so much fun doing it, and I enjoy very much the opportunities to learn. Yeah,   Susan Janzen ** 48:29 no, I'm right there with you, and I think that's why I just keep going, because it's fascinating. And then, and it seems like the right different people come into my, my, you know, my area, just to ask if they can be on it. And it's, it always works out really well, like it's always something that else that I've just kind of broadens it a little bit, but I, I'm trying to be more focused this night, last two months now, in that, you know, in conjunction with my daughter and just doing the parents with accessible, you know, needs, or kids with adaptive needs. And also, some adults are coming to me now too, saying they've in their 30s and 40s, they were in psycho with ADHD, and so they're that diverse, neuro, diverse group. So, I mean, who knows where that will take me, right? I'm open to it   Michael Hingson ** 49:18 well, and that's what makes it so much fun. You never know where the journey is going to take you, or if you do, and you're all embracing it, so much the better. But if you don't know what's an adventure, and that's good too, that's   49:28 great. No, I agree with you, yeah. So I love how   Michael Hingson ** 49:31 many, how many pot of Palooza events have you been to? That   Susan Janzen ** 49:34 was my first one. I know I did not have a clue what to expect. I put you down as my potential guest, though, but I don't know how it didn't come up forward. So I'm glad we're doing this now, but I I really enjoyed it. I love the people, and you could tell we were all in the same room with the same visions and the same, you know, compassionate areas that we're working in. So. I was really grateful for a lot of the people I met, great people. Well   Michael Hingson ** 50:03 now you and I also have an event time scheduled next Tuesday. Do we good? Yeah, are you? Well, you scheduled it in my Zoom. But if you, if you, when you go look at your calendar, you'll see, I think what you did was you scheduled it, forgetting this was supposed to be a 60 minute interview conversation. But if you send me a link, this is live radio sports fans. If you send me a link, then I will come to yours next time, next Tuesday, at the time that we're supposed to meet, rather than you coming into the Zoom Room, where we are, or I can make you a co host, and you can record it your choice.   Susan Janzen ** 50:45 Oh, what? Hey, yes, let's do it. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 50:49 I'll just, we'll, we'll get together, and I'll make you a host or a co host, that'd be perfect.   Susan Janzen ** 50:54 And then you can record it that'd be great. Or, I have three streams, so I can send you the link for that you   Michael Hingson ** 51:01 choose, but long as it's accessible to screen readers, I'm happy. And,   Susan Janzen ** 51:09 yeah, thank you for that, Michael, I did. We'll do that. You got it good. We're booked. Yeah, we are   Michael Hingson ** 51:16 already booked. So it's next Tuesday, so that'll be good. That'll be great, but it's a lot of fun.   Susan Janzen ** 51:23 Yeah, really it's it's nice to get to know people. It's really nice to know other people's journeys. And especially, what I find most fascinating is all over the world, like we're meeting people that we would have never met. Yeah, you know before. So I'm glad. I really   Michael Hingson ** 51:36 appreciate that I've met a number of people from Australia. We interviewed? Well, we had a conversation with somebody from Uganda, number of people in England and people throughout the United States. So it's a lot of fun.   Susan Janzen ** 51:49 It really is, yeah, so we're blessed that that's great. It's a   Michael Hingson ** 51:53 wonderful blessing. I mean, doing this is so enjoyable. I used to do radio in college, and so this the neat thing about doing a podcast, at least the way I do it, is you're not absolutely governed by time, so you don't have to end at four o'clock and and it's so much more fun than radio, because you are the one that's really in control of what you do. So it's it's a lot of fun, but I very much enjoy doing the podcast, right?   Susan Janzen ** 52:23 You're right is that if they start having to go to worship break and not have to take the time and stopping and starting, that is really,   Michael Hingson ** 52:30 oh, that people seem to like it. They they keep emailing me and saying they like it. And I, I'm hoping that they continue to do that. As long as people are happy with me doing it, I'm going to do it. And you know, as I tell everyone, if you know anyone who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, want to hear from you and provide us with an introduction, because it is part of what we do. And so, so much fun,   Susan Janzen ** 52:53 so much fun. So tell me why you Why did you choose that name unstoppable mindset?   Michael Hingson ** 52:59 You know, I was looking for a name. And I've heard some people kind of talking about unstoppable in their lives in some way, but I also thought that we really needed to define what unstoppable meant. And so I just thought about it for a while, and it just really kind of clicked. And I said, Okay, God, that must be what you want me to do. So we're going to have unstoppable mindset. We're inclusion, diversity in the unexpected beat. Love it and it's and it is stuck. And every title for people starts with unstoppable. So you'll be unstoppable something or other. I gotta think about the title, unless you've got some bright idea.   Susan Janzen ** 53:48 Oh yeah, you have to let me know.   Michael Hingson ** 53:51 Well, I'm trying to use something like unstoppable. Woman of many talents. But you know,   Susan Janzen ** 53:56 yeah, I don't have just 111, little lane. I love learning about everything, and I love open and grateful for every opportunity. So that's probably my problem. Yeah, that's our problem. That's not really a problem, but I know it's not,   Michael Hingson ** 54:11 and it's so much fun. So what are your goals for the podcast? How do you hope it will make a difference in the world?   Susan Janzen ** 54:21 I think my, my biggest thing is to say, you know, I've been through, I think it's showing people that they're not alone, that there are people out there who do understand, and there are people there that really do care about them, and that we want to provide information and services, and we want to hear their story. We want them to just know. I think a lot of people feel when they're in situations that are not whatever normal is, whatever that is even mean that they're just they're in isolation, and they're there's nobody that cares and that they don't matter. And I think my biggest thing in my coaching and in my podcast. Have to just say, You know what, we're here, and we really want to understand, if we don't understand, explain it to us. So we do, and that you're not alone in this, and we we're here to help, you know, to collaborate and to help each other.   Michael Hingson ** 55:11 Yeah, well, tell us a little bit more about the whole coaching program, what's what's happening now, what your goals are for that, and and how you're finding people and so on,   Susan Janzen ** 55:22 right? So the coaching my specific areas are confidence and resilience is my is my title, like confidence and resilience coach and I, and I'm going based on my past and the resilience that I've overcome so many different things. So I've got kind of a long list of things every time. So you talk to say, yeah, no, I that's happened to me, but, and just to, just to encourage people to come into either one on one coaching, or I'm going to have group coaching. And on my website, I also want to have drivers where we we create more value, so that if they're a member, then they can get more podcasts that are more about the how tos, like exactly, specifically areas that they might be interested in. And I also want to create a group where we can have, like a one day a week, coffee time, coffee chat, so we can get people together who are in the same boat, especially those parents with children with a breath of me, and just a place where they can just, kind of no agenda, just to chat and and I also would love to have, like a retreat by the end of the year. Let's all gather, and let's just have a day, you know, together, where we can enjoy each other's company. So that's kind of what I'd like to build with my, with my, with my coaching packages, and then also one on one, of course, as well. And that's, yeah, I would like to have a community, like, build a community. So   Michael Hingson ** 56:51 do you do any of your coaching virtually, or is it all in person? Well,   Susan Janzen ** 56:55 right now it's virtual, like, the one coaching I've done so far and but I'm open to either, like, I'm happy to meet people I don't have an office. Um, is that interesting? How, if you would have asked me that question before COVID, bc I would have just had an office somewhere, and where now it's, like, virtual just is so convenient. Yeah? Meeting full and just all the driving I've eliminated, it's been amazing. So, yeah, I would be open to eat it. You know,   Susan Janzen ** 57:27 how far away have you had clients from?   Susan Janzen ** 57:31 Basically, the ones I've had are the ones that I've had up till now. Really, interestingly enough, are local. They're more local people so we could have met for coffee. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 57:43 and still might, and we still, I'm   Susan Janzen ** 57:47 sure we will. I'm sure we will, because I keep in touch with them, and they're doing great, but interesting, isn't that interesting? It's a really good question, though, because I'm curious to see you know how far you know, the word will get out to come and join me, you know, in the coaching program, yeah, that'd be human.   Michael Hingson ** 58:08 Well, it sounds like a lot of fun. It sounds like fun, yeah, so why do you still continue to sing? Oh, I   Susan Janzen ** 58:15 can't stop I can't shut up. I just think it's like, even it, yeah, it's too hard for me to stop. It's my joy. That's where I find my you know, even as a kid, going through all the tough times I went through, that was my my joy. It was my vice happy place. So I just   Michael Hingson ** 58:32 so do you think that that singing helps others with confidence and resilience?   Susan Janzen ** 58:36 I um, I think, I think the the techniques that are used in singing, a lot of them are used in podcasting or speaking. A lot of them, we are speakers, for instance. And then they have, they worry about confidence on camera specifically, and when that where light comes on, or when the light comes on, and they just don't know how they're looking or how people are seeing them, those kind of areas, those are the things that I kind of tackle when I talk, talk to them and just explain it as a like, I sang the national anthem for a Stanley Cup playoff game. That's scary, like, that's that's really scary. So I mean, I know I've been there, and I know what that feels like, and I know how your body feels, and I know the importance of breathing, and I think one of the biggest things is just getting people to, just to take deep breaths. You know, when   Michael Hingson ** 59:28 you're when you relax and you lean into it, which I'm sure you do because you're used to it. That gives you a confidence that you can then project onto other people 100% Yeah, exactly. You talked about the red light on the camera coming on. It reminds me of one of my favorite stories. Yeah, right after September 11, I was interviewed on Larry King Live on scene. Oh, wow, wow. We actually had five different interviews, and when the second one occurred, mm. Uh, the the the producer, the director, came into the studio where I was and Larry was still out in California, and I was doing it from CNN in New York. And you know, when they, when they do their shows, everything is like, from sort of the chest up. It's mainly dealing with your face and so on. So for Roselle, excuse me, for Roselle to be able to be my guide dog, to be part of the show, they build a platform that we put her up on. Now she was just laying there. And the director came in and he said, you know, your dog isn't really doing anything. Is there anything we can do to make her more animated? And I said, are the Clea lights on? Because I couldn't really tell and he said, No. I said, then don't worry about it. When those lights come on, she will be a totally different dog, because she figured out cameras. She loved to go in front of the camera. The klieg lights came on, she lifts up her head, she's yawning, she's blinking, she's wagging her tail. It was perfect. Yeah, it's one of my favorite stories. But that is so great. I guess it's also the time to tell you that the name of my third guide dog was, here it comes, Klondike. Oh, really, my third guide dog, anything was a golden retriever. His name was Klondike.   Susan Janzen ** 1:01:18 Oh, that's and I know I'm public dates, and then you got two of us here. This is great. Yeah, that is so cool. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:26 if people want to reach out and get get in contact with you, they want to learn about your coaching programs and so on. How do they do that?   Susan Janzen ** 1:01:35 So I think the best way is, my website is this, www, dot Sue. Janssen, I'm just going by my short Susan. So S, U, E, J, a, n, z, e n, dot, C, A diamet, and that'll kind of give you everything there. There'll be a little video of my granddaughter on there. There'll be ways to get in touch with me and to book a call. So that would be great. And then we'll chat about it,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:59 and we have an image of your book cover in in the show notes and so on. And so I hope people will pick that up. Um, I always ask this, although a lot of times it doesn't happen. But does it happen to also be availabl

Our guest this time is a prolific author, Kim Lengling. Kim is prolific as she has been the lead author on six book anthologies. I cannot say that she came by writing honestly. She grew up in a small Northern Pennsylvania town. After graduating from high school instead of going on to college Kim joined the military with great thoughts and ideas of leaving her small town upbringing and seeing the world. As she describes it, she did leave the small town world, but she only had military duty state side. After four years of service she left the military life and moved back to a “small town” in Pennsylvania.   Over time she began and pursued a career in sales and marketing. Along the way she married and had a daughter. She also took a keen interest in helping veterans and veteran organizations.   I asked Kim how she began her writing career. She will tell the story about how she was asked to give a speech to some 800 veterans. The story about her talk is remarkable and the unexpected turn her life made after her speech is worth hearing directly from Kim. Bottom line is that Kim was convinced to begin writing articles. Since 2020 she added writing and self publishing books to her repertoire of accomplishments.   As it turns out, Kim and I both experienced unexpected life changes due to public speaking. Both of us chose to take full advantage of the opportunities that came our way and we both are the better for it. I very much enjoyed my conversation with Kim and I hope you will as well.       About the Guest:   As a multi-published author, Kim shares her love of nature and animals, her life with PTSD, and her mission to toss out Nuggets of Hope through her writing and podcast. Kim is the lead author and coordinator of six anthologies: The When Grace Found Me Series (three books), When Hope Found Me, Paw Prints on the Couch, and Paw Prints on the Kitchen Floor. Her newest book, Nuggets of Hope, was released on November 15, 2024. In addition to writing, she hosts the podcast Let Fear Bounce, which spotlights people who have faced and overcome personal fear(s) to make a difference in their slice of the world through writing, coaching, film production, philanthropy, teaching, founding non-profits, public speaking, or simply being an amazing human being. You can regularly find Kim drinking coffee, reading, and talking with the critters in the woods while taking long walks with her dog, Dexter. Visit her website, www.kimlenglingauthor.com, to keep up with everything happening in her realm.   Ways to connect Kim:     Website:                                www.kimlenglingauthor.com   Amazon:                               https://www.amazon.com/author/kimlengling   Let Fear Bounce                 @Letfearbounce Apple:                                   https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/let-fear-bounce/id1541906455   Facebook:                            https://www.facebook.com/letfearbouncepodcast   LinkedIn:                              https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimberlylengling/   Instagram:                            https://www.instagram.com/lenglingauthor/   Twitter:                                  https://www.tiktok.com/@klengling?lang=en   TikTok:                                 ** https://www.tiktok.com/@klengling?lang=en   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. And today is kind of a fun one, because I get to talk to another author. One of the things that I participate in and have done for a little while are book fairs, including virtual book fairs, and our guest today, Kim Lengling and I, lengling and I were both on a virtual book fair just a couple of weeks ago talking about our books and this and that and all the other stuff. And I made it really clear that I'm always looking for a good podcast guests, and it just seemed like the right thing to do. And of course, then Kim said, well, not unless you're going to be on my podcast too. So we are going to reciprocate next week. So I actually had a a message, an email yesterday from someone who wanted me to come on their podcast to talk about disabilities. And then they, before I responded, they sent a second letter saying, You do understand, we don't pay for podcast guests or anything like that, which I never expected to to have to to deal with anyway. But I wrote back, and I said, Well, I'm sorry, I do charge. And the charges that you have to be on if you want me on your podcast, then you gotta be on my podcast too. So it's fun to tease, but anyway, Kim, welcome to unstoppable mindset. After all that.   Kim Lengling ** 02:44 Well, thank you. Thanks for having man, I think it's going to be fun doing a podcast swap. Oh   Michael Hingson ** 02:49 yeah, it's a lot of fun to do that, and it's and it's kind of neat, and we get to know each other better and all that. And next year, when we have the book fair, we can, we can always team up on other people, because we'll know each other better.   Kim Lengling ** 03:01 That's right. That is right. And I those book fairs. They're fun. I enjoy doing those. They are and   Michael Hingson ** 03:08 I think the video of it is now out, so it's pretty cool that it is there and is available so well, I want to again. Thank you for coming on and chatting. It's always fun. And as I explained, our podcasts, our conversation, so let's converse and go from there. I'd love to start by learning kind of, maybe, about the early Kim growing up and all that stuff. Early Kim, the early Kim a long time ago, and I guess, long, long, far away.   03:43 You know, like I get that song stuck in my head.   03:47 Oh, yeah,   Kim Lengling ** 03:50 okay, well, I grew up in a small country town, and I think my graduating class had 72 people total, and it was just, you know, I'm glad I grew up where I did and how I did in the country. I grew up playing outside, and I still play outside every day, 50 some years later. But yet, growing up in a small town, everybody knows each other, which is wonderful, and everybody knows each other, which can be kind of crappy, too, sometimes.   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 Well, there's the other song, everybody knows your name. Oh yeah. From cheers,   04:29 yeah. We're just going to keep on breaking.   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 We're doing great.   Kim Lengling ** 04:37 But yeah, I grew up in a small town, and I I'm very appreciative of the small town, I guess I don't know morals and ethics that I learned growing up, and I've tried very hard when raising my own daughter, who is now married and has her own daughter, I tried and worked hard to instill that those same type of values. Within her. And I think I did a pretty good job. But I did, I did. I liked how I grew up, and then I left my small town right after graduation and went into the military, and thinking, you know, oh yeah, I'm gonna go to this small town and I'm gonna see the world by Gully. And it's, you know, it's, it's a, it's an eye opener. I because I didn't go to college, so, you know, I don't know that. I don't have that experience. I went into the military, and that's an eye opener. It's just, wham, you are no longer small town camp. Yeah, you are now. You are now a spoke in the wheel, and we and you don't even have a name, and you're going to be rebuilt into something different. And I am truly thankful, actually, for my military experience. I feel everybody should have to be in it for at least 12 months. It teaches you so much about discipline, self awareness, leadership skills that we can all use as we grow and you know, yeah, that's kind of my younger self in a small nutshell.   Michael Hingson ** 06:10 How long were you in the military? Four years. Okay, now, the small town you grew up in was that in Pennsylvania? Yes. Okay, so, yep,   Kim Lengling ** 06:21 grew up surrounded by farm fields and cows and deer and everything else, all the critters and all that. I just, I love it, and I still live in the same type of area not far from my small town that I grew up in, and still get to enjoy all of the nature, you know, all of the critters that come through. And just I had a black bear come through the other day. Michael, ooh, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 06:41 And did you have a good conversation with the bear? No,   Kim Lengling ** 06:45 I didn't chat. Didn't want to do that, huh? No, it's I've seen that. I've seen I've lived where I'm at now for, gosh, just about just shy of 30 years, and I've seen bear tracks out there when I'm walking with my dog, but I've never actually come face to face with the actual bear. It was caught on a trail cam, and my neighbors sent it to me and said, Hey, this guy's going through your backyard at 430 this morning. And I'm like, Oh, boy.   Michael Hingson ** 07:16 I don't know whether you can ever make friends with a bear or not.   Kim Lengling ** 07:19 I you know, I'm not going to try. I don't think, yeah, they're kind   Michael Hingson ** 07:24 of big. They are kind of big. I suppose, if they make the initial Overture and they're friendly about it, that's one thing, but probably going the other way is a little bit more risky. Yeah,   Kim Lengling ** 07:36 yeah. I, you know, I would probably just not want to try. Yeah, just, you know, they're 700 and up pounds. That's, uh, that's, They're big. They're   Michael Hingson ** 07:46 big. Well, and then there's always a moose, which gets even bigger.   Kim Lengling ** 07:50 And see, we don't have moose where I'm at, yeah, yeah. And I've never seen one of those in person either. But I always thought, you know, well, you see online and stuff, just how big they are, they're so tall, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 08:04 and they're probably not the most friendly creatures. Oh,   Kim Lengling ** 08:07 they're not see, I don't know anything about moose, because we don't have them in my neck of the woods.   Michael Hingson ** 08:13 Yeah, I think it'd be fun to try to meet one, but I don't know whether that would be a good idea or not, so I don't either. If somebody else tells me that they have a moose that I could meet, I would believe them. But until that happens, I'm not going to worry   Kim Lengling ** 08:28 about it. Yeah, yeah, not something to worry about.   Michael Hingson ** 08:31 I don't Same, same with a bear. Now, on the other hand, I know your dog's name is Dexter, yeah, and I wonder what Dexter would think of a moose or a bear close up.   Kim Lengling ** 08:44 You know, I'm not sure, because he does his he's a he's pretty big dog. He's not huge, but he's a bigger dog. And there are certain times when we're out in the evening because it's pitch black. I mean, I'm out in the country. There's no lights out here, so it's pitch black out there. So I have a flashlight, and he has a collar on that lights up. And there are times when he will stop, and I call it his big boy stance, because he stops and his whole body just stiffens up, and he's staring at the woods. Now he can see stuff I can't Yeah, yeah, you know. And so I sit there, and I flash the flashlight back through there, because I carry a very powerful flashlight with me, so it lights up everything. And then when I see two yellow eyes staring at me from the woods, I'm never really sure what it might be. And I watch what Dexter's doing, yeah, and there are times where he where he will put himself in front of me, and then there's times where he comes and he will bump my leg with his head, and then turns and starts running back to the house, like, stay out here. Yeah, yeah. So it's been interesting to watch how he how he I follow his lead. When it's dark outside and we're outside, I. Follow   Michael Hingson ** 10:00 his lead. Smart move. What kind of dog is Dexter?   Kim Lengling ** 10:03 He is a Belgian Malwa Mastiff mix. Oh, so he's a big one, kinda, yeah, yeah, not huge. He's about 80 pounds, but he's a he's a good sized dog,   Michael Hingson ** 10:13 bigger than my black lab guide dog, Alamo, who's about 63 pounds.   Kim Lengling ** 10:18 Oh, okay. Labs are wonderful. Labs are awesome. But   Michael Hingson ** 10:22 again, it's all about trust. And I would trust Alamo's instincts any day and do and of course, yes, yeah, you know, but, but it isn't just the the normal guiding, but just in general, his behavior. I observe it pretty closely, and I think it's an important thing to do, because, as you said, they tend to see a whole lot of things that we don't necessarily see.   Kim Lengling ** 10:47 Right, right? No, yeah, even with my other dog, digger, prior to Dexter, digger was about 105 pounds. He was a pretty big dog, real tall and lean and long. He was very protective of me. Oh, and he would always have to be touching me or in front of me, and I took him everywhere with me. We were always out in public, and he was always if someone would approach, he would let them know I would follow his lead. He would never growl, but he would show his teeth like a scary smile, yeah. And I'd be like, Okay, we're not going any further. I'm not going to interact with this person. This person. And then other times he would just come and kind of nudge me, and his tail would start wagging. I'm like, Okay, this person's probably okay. Then it's very you know, dogs or animals period, are just amazing in their instincts. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 11:34 I've been pretty blessed that Alamo has not yet met a stranger. But also we haven't really encountered anyone that would be a really mean, nasty person, and I have seen some dogs who do sense that very well. My first guide dog was a golden retriever. He was 64 pounds, and when we were in college, and I wrote about it in my my new book, live like a guide dog in in college. On our first year we were at UC Irvine. It was a very open, somewhat rural campus, just in terms of what was around us in Orange County, which is not so rural anymore, but people would bring their dogs to campus, and they would just let the dogs roam while they went to class, and then they'd find them at the end and a bunch of dogs, just all congealed, if you will, into a pack. And they would, they would go around together. And one day, they decided that they were going to come after Squire and me. They were behind us, and as they got closer, they were growling, and Squire was doing his job of guiding, but all of a sudden he jerked, and actually jerked the harness out of my hand. I still held his leash, but he he completely jerked away, and literally, as it was described, because somebody else was watching it, he jerked, leaped up, turned around, and went down on all fours, facing these dogs, and started growling, and it just completely caught them off guard, and they just slunked away. But I've never seen a dog do that before, and I haven't seen a dog do that since, and Squire, of all dogs, a golden retriever, for heaven's sakes,   Kim Lengling ** 13:22 right? Yeah, they're usually just friendly, friendly, friendly, yeah, but   Michael Hingson ** 13:25 he, he knew what he was doing, and yeah, and he, he dealt with them.   Kim Lengling ** 13:32 That's awesome. Well, so I just love dogs.   Michael Hingson ** 13:35 Oh, yeah. Well, and we, and we have a cat here. So my wife passed away two years ago. So it's me, dog and cat,   13:43 and quite the trio you have going on.   Michael Hingson ** 13:46 Then we all, we all communicate very well, and they all, and they like each other. And I would not have it any other way. I would not want a guide dog that was in any way antagonistic toward cats. Now, now that wouldn't work well. Now Alamo doesn't Chase Stitch. Stitch has claws. I think Alamo is smart enough that he understands that, but, but they do rub noses and they play and they talk. So it works out all right, and every so often, stitch will steal Alamo's bed, and poor Alamo doesn't know what to do with himself, because he can't lay on his bed because the cat's there and he won't try to make her move. I think a couple times they both have been on the bed, but mostly not,   Kim Lengling ** 14:28 yeah, yeah. My my dog. Unfortunately, he's like, a single animal type dog, you know, it can only be him and and the neighbors cats. Sometimes, if they end up in my yard, he gets them up in a tree. So he's he's got a he's got a very big prey drive for anything smaller than him. We   Michael Hingson ** 14:53 had a we had a dachshund. Once it was a miniature dachshund. Oh, and he treated cat. One day before my brother and I went off to high school for the day, and this cat was up in the tree. We came home and Pee Wee was still barking at this cat up in the tree. The cat was up in the tree sound asleep, not worried about anything. This dog's dog didn't know when to shut up anyway. It was kind of funny.   Kim Lengling ** 15:25 Well, dogs are amazing. My dog, when he is he's treed raccoons, all kinds of stuff, anything smaller than him, he takes off after he has he does have quite the prey drive. And I think that's the Belgian mountain wall coming out in him. Yeah, you know, pretty sure that's that part. And I've not been able to get him to stop that. But I'm in the country and, you know, okay, it is, it is what it is. It is what it is.   Michael Hingson ** 15:53 Well, so did you see much of the world when you were in the military?   Kim Lengling ** 15:56 I was actually all stateside, interestingly enough, yeah. Well, you saw the country then I did. I saw some of the country. So, yeah, I'm it's, it's an experience that I'm glad that I I had. What did you do? I did Morse code, actually. Okay, yeah. And it's funny, years ago I ran into, because this is quite some time ago, quite some time ago, and it was years ago I ran into a couple of younger Navy guys at a gas station. They were filling up their car, and I, of course, went up and thanked them for their service. And I had just come from a funeral, so I was in a military funeral, and I was part of the honor guard at that time, so I was in my honor guard uniform, and they're like, well, thank you for your service. What branch were you? And we're just chit chatting, you know, like folks do. And they said, Well, what did you do? What was your MOS and I told them, and they looked at each other, and their cheeks got red, and I said, What's What's so funny? And they said, Oh, ma'am, we don't use Morse code anymore. And I went, Oh, well, my goodness, when did they stop using it? And the one, the one kid, and they were kids, they were like, probably 18 to me. Anyway, they were at the time, 1819, years old. And the one looked at the other, and they said, Well, wait a minute. No, no, we did use it that one time. I remember there in the Navy, and they were on deployment out in the ocean, sea, wherever. And they said, no, no, there. Remember that one time that that old guy, he did use Morse code. He had, we had to use it because some part of the electrical went out. And I and they were, I looked at them and I went, when you say old guy, what? What do you mean by that? And their faces turned so red. And the one kid, he goes, Oh Ma'am, he must have been at least, oh geez, 37 and at that time I was like, 41 I just started laughing. And I said, well, he wasn't really all that old, you guys, but So yeah, that was a and so   Michael Hingson ** 18:02 what do they use now that they don't use Morse code? I honestly   Kim Lengling ** 18:05 don't know. I think everything is more electronic. And yeah, I mean, yeah, it's been so long since I've been it's been a while. It's been, it's been a decade or few.   Michael Hingson ** 18:15 Well, I learned Morse code to get my ham radio license, and I still remember it and and it, and it still is a means of communications that can sometimes break through when voice and other things don't come through. Absolutely,   Kim Lengling ** 18:29 absolutely no, yeah, and I don't remember a lot of it, probably just because I was so sick of hearing it. I don't, I actually don't remember a lot of it, but if needed, I could, oh yeah, touch up on it.   Michael Hingson ** 18:47 So how fast were you able to receive code? Um,   Kim Lengling ** 18:51 we had to, in order. We had to pass a certain what was it? 2222 words a minute. Okay, I think, I think we had to get 20 I think it was 22 in training when we had, when we were in tech school in order to progress. I think it was 22 Yeah, yeah. And that's fast for people who don't realize when all you're listening to is, did audit, yep. I mean and going 22 words a minute. It's it just sounds like   Michael Hingson ** 19:18 I went a friend of mine, who was also a ham operator, and I were talking one day, and he was telling me about this kid that he had met on the air, and they were both doing code, and he decided that since this kid was a kid, that he would play a trick on him. And he slowly started speeding up how fast he was sending the code, and I don't know how fast he got to and then the kid said, Oh, you want to play that game. And he just started going at like, about 60 or 65 words a minute, which means he was probably using an electronic key or a bug, but I don't   19:56 know, right? Because how would you do that with your fingers? Really? It would   Michael Hingson ** 19:59 be hard. But anyway, this kid was doing it, and the guy went, Okay, you got me.   Kim Lengling ** 20:07 So, yeah, amazing. I mean, it truly is amazing. It's, it's amazing, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 20:13 and, and it's, it's still a very relevant thing to to have in the arsenal if you need it ever. Oh, I agree. I agree. Yeah. So, so what did you do when you came back from being in the military for four years?   Kim Lengling ** 20:27 I came back to my small hometown and didn't do much for a bit. I was kind of a weird it was, it was, wasn't so easy transitioning home from to, you know, being in the military, to coming back to the hometown, because nothing felt right anymore, right? Well, you were in a different world, right? And I was a different person, yeah. And so I didn't stick. I didn't stay there very long. I got a job, you know, got a job, and then it was couple years later, I ended up marrying my high school sweetheart, and we, you know, got married, had got a little place, little house in a different town, and had my daughter. And, you know, did that became a wife and mom and, you know, did the working and being a wife and a mom and all of that stuff? So,   Michael Hingson ** 21:27 yeah, so do you still do that?   Kim Lengling ** 21:31 No, I am divorced. My daughter is mid 30s and married and has her own daughter. So I'm I'm actually a brand new grandma. Oh, there you go. And I am just loving it. I'm loving every second of it, but you don't have the husband anymore. No, no, it's me and Dexter, and that's just fine. Yeah, it's just fine. And so well, and that it's I've, I have found out, you know, it's interesting when you're a wife, a mom, you work full time, and then your life completely changes, and you're an empty nester, completely empty nest, and it's just you and the dog. You have to find out who you are again, yeah, and it was very interesting for me, because I was like, oh my goodness, I forgot who Kim was. So it was an interesting journey to find that out and to find out, you know, what did I even like to do? Because I was always running here, running there, doing this, doing that, family, kids, stuff, you know, all of the things, doing all the things. And then I was, you know, now I had time to figure out, what do I like to do, geez, what did I like to do? You know? So it was interesting. Spent. It was interesting the first few years figuring out who I was again and what I liked to do and what makes me, you know, what fulfills me and and, you know, to reach a point where I'm thriving in that, you know, it was interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 23:02 And what did you decide that you like to do?   Kim Lengling ** 23:07 I like writing, and I love doing and I love doing my podcast and volunteering I volunteer for with my veteran post, been doing that for over 25 years now, helping veterans in need, those folks that might need a little bit of help here and there, and then also, it's a project support our troops, which is a monthly thing we've been doing every month for 24 years, sending care packages to those men and women who are deployed around the globe so, and it's all done by donations. So that's, that's a lot, it's a lot of my time, and a lot of where my heart is is helping those folks. So I've been able to really, you know, put a lot into that, which is very fulfilling.   Michael Hingson ** 23:56 What made you decide that you really liked writing?   Kim Lengling ** 24:00 You know, it was years ago. When was it? Oh, gosh, close to 20 years. Oh, my goodness, a long, long time ago. About almost 20 years ago, I was asked to give a speech at a local veteran event. And it was a large veteran event. There's about 800 people there. I had never spoken in public before, and I was asked to give a speech. And I my step grandfather, so my stepfather, his dad, was the last surviving World War One veteran in my area. Ooh, and he passed away in 1997 and I thought, you know, I'm gonna talk about him. So I spent quite a bit of time with my step dad, and we went through his dad's stuff that he had brought home, and I learned all kinds of stuff about him and his time in World War One, and he was, he was the last man of the last man's Club. Job, and that was formed in themes France on Armistice Day, and the mayor of this small village in France had a bottle of wine and came out to the boys of Company B, literally, they were the boys of Company B from my town, and gave them this bottle of wine in celebration, you know, of the signing of the armistice, and the guys all decided they weren't going to drink it. They were going to keep it. And as time went on, it would pass to the next comrade, and whoever was the last man standing would be the one that has that bottle of wine, and he would then open it toast his fallen comrades. So the the last man's club is what they called it. And my step grandfather was the last man of the last man's club, and he passed away at the age of 104 Wow. And so I shared his story and the story of the last man's club. That was my speech. And it was, it was about a 15 minute speech, and for someone who'd never spoken in public before, and you know this, 15 minutes is a long time, can be a long time to talk in front of a group of people, and there were television cameras there, and it was just, it was overwhelming. But I got up there the first two minutes, my voice was shaking because I was a little nervous, and then I just fell into the story, because it's just a beautiful story. And when I was done, it was, there was, and I'm there, was about 800 people there. It was total silence. I mean, you could hear a pin drop, and I thought, oh my goodness, I just blew it. But then there was one, one person started clapping, and then another. And then the place like this was an outdoor event, they interrupted. They just went crazy, and people were crying, and the local newspaper came up to me. The local newspaper editor came up to me and said, Would you consider writing an article, you know, about veterans for the for the paper? And I said, Oh, my goodness, I'm no writer. And he goes, Well, who wrote your speech? And I said, Well, I did. And he goes, well, then you're a writer. And that was the little spark that that lit something up in me. Somebody saw something in me that I had never even considered looking for in myself. And so that was the little spark that got me going so   Michael Hingson ** 27:34 you hadn't really contemplated, contemplated writing before then,   Kim Lengling ** 27:38 no, not at all. And and and never, really, it had never entered my mind. And I started doing these monthly articles, and I was interviewing veterans. And I'm very I'm very connected with my local veteran community, and being a veteran myself, the veterans were pretty comfortable talking to me, and I, you know, I spoke to numerous former prisoners of war. Most of, most of who I interviewed over the years were combat veterans. A lot of them were Vietnam vet combat veterans, and hearing their stories. And first off, it was very humbling that they would even share them with me, yeah, because a lot of them won't or don't want to, or can't, you know, can't, yeah. And so for 14 years, I did that each month, and there were, I started getting a following, you know, I, you know, I'd run into because they, they would post a picture with me and my article in the paper each month, and I'd run into people, and they'd be like, Oh my gosh, you just brought me to tears with that article. And I just so enjoy reading your monthly stuff. And that's when, you know, I just I didn't know what I was doing. And when I look back at some of those nights, I'm like, Oh my gosh, Kim, you were such an awful, awful writer. But as time went on, I could, I learned. And then I just started doing some stuff online, finding free courses, and, you know, doing what I could, teaching myself a lot of stuff about writing and just how to make it better. And so that's, that's kind of, I just kept, I rolled with it. I just kept rolling with it. And now that I, the last five years, I've had the opportunity to actually work from home full time now and put a lot more of my time into writing, and I'm still learning. We all learn something. We're still, you know, we're all learning, hopefully, we're all learning something. And so, yeah, hopefully so I can see how my my writing has changed, how my voice has changed, and I just hope, I just hope I'm better than I was yesterday. That's what I hope each day, I'm a little bit better of a writer than I was yesterday, because hopefully I learned something new.   Michael Hingson ** 29:48 And that's fair, we have somewhat similar starts in the whole process. So for me, of course, September 11 happened, and um. The media got the story and like, about a week and a half after September 11. I don't remember exactly what day it was. It must have been around the 20th or so of of September, but I got a call on the phone, and this guy said he was the pastor of a church, and he had heard about me, and asked if I would come and speak at a church service they were going to hold. And I said, Well, I guess tell me more about him. He said, Well, we want to hold a church service for all the people who were lost in the World Trade Center who were from New Jersey. I said, Okay, that seems like a would be a worthwhile thing to do. And so we agreed to do it. And then kind of the last thing I asked him before hanging up was, how many people are going to be at this service? And he said, Well, it's going to be an outdoor service, and there'll be something over 5000 people. Now it's not that I hadn't spoken in unusual situations before, because being in sales, you never know where you're going to be on any given day, from a board of directors of a Wall Street firm to IT people or whatever, but still 5000 people, and that's a lot. And when I got there, I also learned that Lisa beamer was there. Now Lisa's husband, Todd, was the guy on flight 93 who said, let's roll. Let's roll. Yeah. And Lisa was not an animal lover, but she and Roselle hit it off, and so she she really and Roselle was my guide dog in the World Trade Center. So they had a thing going, which was kind of cool, but the speech wasn't overly long. It was only supposed to be about six or seven minutes, and it was, and that is really what got me started down the road of doing public speaking. Then the next year, we were at an event where I met the publisher of the AKC Gazette, and George said, You should write a book. I said, I've never thought of writing a book, and it took eight years to get it done and get the right combination, including someone to collaborate with, because I wasn't really all that familiar with writing. But anyway, we wrote thunder dog, and it got published in 2011 became a New York Times bestseller. So that was pretty cool. But, you know, circumstances do offer us opportunities, and it's important to really take them when you can. And so we you and I have both done that in various ways, yeah,   Kim Lengling ** 32:35 and it's interesting when you look back to see how things unfold. Mm, hmm, you know, and you had mentioned that you were in sales, and that's my background, 25 years of sales and marketing. So it's and I've talked to I've talked Well, I'm sure you have too as well. Many, many authors, and a lot of them have some sort of sales or marketing in their background. Have you found that to be true as well? I   Michael Hingson ** 32:59 have, and especially today, you have to, because the publishers aren't doing nearly as much as they used to to promote books, and they want the authors to do a lot more. And I think that the publishers, some of the publishers, could do more than they're doing, but they because they rely on social media and so on. But there's a lot more to it than that. But unfortunately, that's not what they do. So, you know, you you cope with what you got. That's   Kim Lengling ** 33:26 right, that's right, you know. And I found that a lot of the the larger publishing houses, and even some of the mid sized ones, in order for them to even take you on, you have to have a certain number of followers, or whatever it is on your combined social media platforms, yeah, and so many authors don't, don't.   Michael Hingson ** 33:53 And you know, we're not   Kim Lengling ** 33:54 all out there being influencers, you know, yeah, but   Michael Hingson ** 33:57 you also have to make the commitment to promote, and so absolutely, so we do and it, and it's, it's part of what needs to be done. And I don't mind, and I understand the concept of an author has to be part of what promotes their book. They they shouldn't rely totally on the publisher, and that's fine, but I do think that publishers could do more than they do a lot of times to help today, that social media is the thing. Well, it's not the only thing, and you miss out on a lot, on a lot, by just dealing with social media,   34:34 right? That's where a good publicist comes in.   34:37 Yeah.   Kim Lengling ** 34:41 Yeah, yeah, that's, that's helpful, but no, yeah. And I, well, I enjoy doing the but it's so it's almost a full time job marketing. Just, it is, you know, it's, it's a lot of work. And, you know, I, I'm self published. I didn't go the, the traditional publishing route. I. And knowing, you know, regardless, I would still be doing the same amount of work that I'm doing if I went the traditional route, right? Because I'd still have to do a majority, or, if not, all, of my own promotion, which I don't mind. I enjoy doing that, because then I actually get to meet, yes, a lot of interesting people.   35:22 You know, people it   Kim Lengling ** 35:24 is, and the people that have been put in front of me, you know, like yourself, you know, we made a connection, and now I'm here a guest on your show, and you're going to be a guest on mine. I mean, how cool is that? So, you know, you get to meet people that might have nothing to do with your book. It's just, it's just cool to you know, humanity, to meet, to meet other good, decent people is a good thing.   Michael Hingson ** 35:49 It is by, by any standard, right? You primarily today write fiction. So what got you down the road of writing fiction or non actually, non fiction, non fiction, non fiction,   Kim Lengling ** 36:01 that it was. It was all of the interviewing that I did with the veterans, you know, keeping keep into the the personal stories. I really enjoyed that I I enjoy it, and being able to not only write the story, but pull that emotion from it too. And I found that at first it was somewhat intimidating, because I'm thinking, how can I, how can I get these in words on paper, where people are going to feel what I'm feeling right now listening to this gentleman, yeah, you know. And it just that that kind of fascinated me, and that's what made me want to keep on writing and learning how to do it better. And so I just stuck with it. So I, yeah, I've not written anything fiction   Michael Hingson ** 36:50 at all. One of the things that I I find is that what makes I think good, successful writers, l will deal with non fiction right now, but is to be yourself. So when you interviewing people, your personal self has to come through, not in in the in an opinion way, but just how you are able to portray the people who you're talking with. And interviewing it comes out so much better if you really can feel it, which is again, getting back to your, your being yourselves,   Kim Lengling ** 37:26 right? Yes, I think, yeah, being authentic, yeah, just, you know, I've had, I don't know if you've had folks on your show that I've had a few that I was the first podcast they were ever on, and they were quite nervous. And I said, Well, you know, before I even hit that record button, you know, I don't mind sitting here chit chatting for a bit, so, you know, you feel a little bit more at ease. And it just took without fail, my guests have said, you know, Kim, thank you for being such a welcoming host, and you made this fun. And, you know, there's no, because there's no pretense with me. You know, it's, it's, I'm come as I am. I'm not all, you know, I don't get all my hair is not done. I don't have a bunch of makeup on or anything like that. It's, you know, you can't. This is Kim. This is me. This is who I am every day. And, you know, hey, let's sit down and have a cup of coffee. That's that's how I try and, you know, get my guests at ease, you know. And I'm sure that you've had guests that have probably been kind of nervous, maybe it's their first time on a show or something. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 38:31 one of the things that I do, though, and I really have found that it works very well to do this, is before I have a guest on the actual podcast, I want to sit down with them and have a half hour conversation where we get to know each other. So I insist that anyone who wants to come on to unstoppable mindset has to spend some time with me ahead of time, and that way, when I find people who aren't familiar with podcasts, or, you know, they say, Well, I'd love to come on, but I don't know what to talk about. We can talk about it, and we can, we can get them to relax and recognize that they do have a story to tell, and what we want to do is to to hear their story, and they don't need to worry about being uptight, because there, there are no set rules that you have to do this or you fail. It's all about really enjoying what you do and just being willing to talk about it.   Kim Lengling ** 39:32 Yeah, and that's, that's an awesome idea. And I know a lot of podcast hosts do that. I have not I, and I don't know why. I've never really come up with a reason why I haven't had, you know, just that sit down chat 1520 minutes prior, you know, maybe a week before the show, or whatever. I've just, I've just not done that. I don't know. I we usually end up talking 10 to 15 minutes prior to me hitting record. Um, there's only, I really had one instance with one guest. And. Was a couple years ago where we did chit chat. And as we were chit chatting, it was that at that point I thought I should probably do pre screening, yeah, and I, I, we went through with the show, and I pre record everything, yeah, so I did cut it short, and I never published it. It was that was the one and only time that ever happened. This person never got back to me, never said, when's this going to be out? It was just such an uncomfortable chat. And I was thinking, wow, on paper, this person was a completely different person than when I'm actually talking, yeah, so, and it wasn't in line with anything of what we had discussed. So it was, it was, that was interesting. That's only in four years that's only happened one time, and that was one day when I thought I really should do pre screen.   Michael Hingson ** 40:59 Well, I've had, I've had two. One the we did the podcast, and this person just had no effect to their voice. And as much as I talked ahead of time about I want to hear your story and all that, he just couldn't tell a story. Oh, yeah. And so that one didn't get published, and then another one I did, and I thought it was a great podcast, but the person said, I absolutely do not want this published. I just decided that that I don't want to do it. And   Kim Lengling ** 41:35 I had one like that after we had recorded and everything, and I thought I too for and they it was like three days later, because I said, Well, it's going to be up and uploaded probably two to three weeks from now. It's like two or three days later. They said, You know, I've changed my mind. I don't want my story out there at all. Yeah, there was fear in theirs. There was fear involved. Yeah, there was, there was   Michael Hingson ** 41:55 clearly fear, um, with my person as well. Oh, yeah. And they got very, very nasty about it when I said, Look, it really is a good podcast. So, you know, I'm not going to, I don't want to have people and make people do things they don't want to do. I've had several people who have said, well, I want to hear the podcast before it goes out and and I'll say to that, no, it's a conversation, and I don't edit it. So the whole idea is that if there's any editing, it's just to deal with getting noise out of it and all that. But only that doesn't happen. But, you know, and people accept that, but again, it's fear. But the reality is that I believe everyone has a story to tell, and I believe that everyone, if they're willing to do it, should tell their story, because it will show other people that they're not any different, and we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. And that's the whole point of the podcast.   42:58 No, that's I agree. I agree 100%   Michael Hingson ** 43:02 Well, tell us. Tell me about some of the non fiction books that you've written. Tell me a little bit about what you've done and and so I just   Kim Lengling ** 43:08 had, I just had one released last week, actually called nuggets of hope. And that one has been in the works for a couple years, and it started with not me thinking about turning anything into a book. It was, it just started with the word hope. Showed up everywhere, everywhere, and I felt very strongly that I was supposed to be doing something with it. And I ended up getting polished stones with the word hope engraved on them, and carrying those with me. And I thought, Okay, I think I'm supposed to be giving nuggets of hope to people and but I wasn't sure how to do that, but I had this very strong nudge that I was meant to be doing this. And so that began a couple years ago. And I would just approach people who I would see, you know, I'm out running errands, doing my thing, and I would just someone would catch my eye, and I would feel very strongly nudged. Be like that person needs a nugget of hope. And I would just approach and say, Excuse me, ma'am, or sir, I would like to give you a nugget of hope today, and without fail, and I've been doing this for a couple years, so I've been handing out quite a few my little stones. And without fail, every single person I've approached has has put their hand out to accept that, and I get a hope and from a total stranger just coming up to them. You know, it's, it's amazing. And the reactions that I've had have just been, you know, there's been tears, there's been laughter, nervous laughter. There's been funny looks like, Who are you crazy woman approaching me? Um, I've had people hug me and I had one older gentleman yell at me in anger and swear at me in Walmart, and, you know, ask me very loudly, what the hell did he have to hope for? And but he took the nugget of hope and put it in his pocket. Yeah, and I knew in that moment with that, that particular gentleman had nothing to do with me and he was in his probably had to have been in his late 80s. So I don't know what was gone in his life, but I do firmly believe, even to this day, that I was meant to be in front of him at that moment in time and give him a nugget of hope, a nugget of hope. Yeah, I firmly believe that. And I don't know, you know, when our interaction was done, he was still an angry man, and that's okay, because I didn't let it land on me, because it wasn't supposed to. It wasn't directed at me. And I got in my car, and I actually did cry. I sat in my car with my head on my steering wheel, crying for that man, because my heart hurt for him. And I thought, you know, what? If he's what if he just lost his wife, and he has no idea. And because he was yelling at me about not knowing what dish soap to get, he couldn't find the kind that he needed. And I thought, maybe, you know, he just, he had just lost his wife, yeah, and she always used a particular soap, and he couldn't find it, and that was what put him over. Maybe he's a full time caregiver for a family member, you know, maybe a white, I don't know, Alzheimer's, what have you. Maybe he was just coming off of a very long illness, and he's on his own, a widower, whatever, because he was, he was late 80s, at least, and looked very, very, very tired. And my heart just hurt. My heart just hurt for him. And I thought, You know what, he might have been yelling and swearing at me, and that is perfectly okay, but I'm going to sit here and pray for him. I'm going to pray for peace and for grace to just envelope him, you know, just be covered in it, and maybe when he wakes up tomorrow and he goes to grab all that stuff from the hallway table and put back in his pocket, he'll look down and see that yeah, and maybe then it'll be like, oh, you know. Or maybe, maybe not. Maybe it would be a week, maybe a month, whatever. But I firmly believe in my heart that at some point he was going to see that, and it would   Michael Hingson ** 47:24 click, and you haven't seen him since, I assume, no, it's   Kim Lengling ** 47:27 total stranger. I don't know these people, you know. And there was one time I have these, I got little cards made too, because, well, these stones are pretty expensive, actually. So I got little cards made too, just tiny, little square cards, and it says, share a nugget of hope today. And on the back, it says, The world is a better place because you're in it. And I had some of those because I had forgotten to put stones in my pocket, and I had a couple of those cards in my purse. And I was in a store just picking, you know, doing errands, and I was walking by some sweaters, and I thought, I'm going to put one of these little cards in a pocket of that sweater and just put it in. Didn't think anything of it. Several days later, I got a message through Facebook from a young lady saying, I don't know if this is the person who left a card in a sweater, but if you are, I want to thank you for leaving this little nugget of hope in that sweater, because I've been struggling with my weight for a very long time, and I had an event to attend, and I was looking for a sweater that would help make me feel better. And she didn't notice that that little card that said, be a nugget of hope today, the world's a better place because you're in it. She didn't notice it until she was home putting the sweater on again to try it on in front of her mirror. And she said, if that was if the person that I'm reaching right now is the person who left that card, I want to thank you for doing that, and I also want to let you know I'm going to keep this card, and when I feel so LED. I'm going to tuck it into a pocket somewhere in a store too, and hopefully someone else will get it, and they will, they will receive it as as I received mine. And I was just like, Oh my goodness.   Michael Hingson ** 49:12 You know, ever since thunder dog was published, I get emails. They're they're sporadic somewhat, but I get emails from people who have said how this book inspired or how I learned so much. And you know, as far as I am concerned, I am better for all of the comments that I get. I learned from everyone who decides to reach out in one way or another, and I encounter people in very, very unusual circumstances. I was in Dallas Fort Worth airport one day, and this guy comes up to me, and he said, You're Mike Kingston. You just wrote thunder dog, and I want to shake your hand, and I want to take you to lunch. And I had time. So. Did go to lunch and I and I never had met the guy before, but he had read thunder dog, and it obviously made a difference to him. So I think, as I said, every time I hear from someone, I believe it makes me a better person. It teaches me that when we put out words or seeds in the field, or whatever you want to call it, that you never know where they're going to plant and thrive. But if that's what I'm supposed to do, then I'm glad I'm doing it.   Kim Lengling ** 50:36 I feel exactly the same, and I like how you said you were it you said each, each comment that you get makes, makes you a better person, and that that's so profound, and it's, it's humbling, isn't it? When you get comments like that, or people approach you and say something that, you know, it was inspiring, or that motivated me, or, you know, wow, that's something I really needed. I mean, it's, it's very for me anyway, it's very humbling. I had an older lady. I was helping her put her groceries in her car. It's just, I just randomly saw her, you know, struggling, and I had a nugget of hope in my hand too, of course. So I went up and I, you know, said, I'd like to give you a nugget of hope, and I'd also like to help you put your groceries in your car. And we got done doing that, and she looked down at the nugget of hope in her hand, and she got all teary eyed, and gave me a big hug, and she said, You are my absolute angel today. You have no idea how much I needed this. And I went, I'm so grateful that, that you're the one that's receiving this, and that you you know that, that you need it. She goes, but I said, but I am no angel. I am no angel. And she said, she's, you know, she just kind of chuckled, and, you know, said, No, you have, you just have no idea. You have no idea what this means to me today. And I didn't ask, because it's none of my business, yeah, you know, I just, I wished her a blessed day, and I went back to my car, and I sat there, and I sat there, and there was another time I actually cried. I was like, oh my goodness, this is what I think I'm, you know, I'm supposed to be doing this random stuff. And it's not random, obviously, but I don't know it's, it's profound, and it hits you, and I'm sure that that's, yeah, probably your book has probably done the same. Your book is a nugget of hope. You know, to many people, I'm sure,   Michael Hingson ** 52:22 I hope it is. I didn't, I didn't write it to do anything other than to try to encourage people and motivate people and teach people a little bit. And I guess it's done all of those things. So I can't complain.   Kim Lengling ** 52:34 No, it's awesome. It's great. And what a beautiful What a beautiful legacy, you know, because that's always going to be out there. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 52:43 Well, you wrote a New Britain or been the lead on a number of anthologies. And I think three of your books are in the series. When Grace found me, tell me about that series. Those   Kim Lengling ** 52:53 started that was in 2020, actually, when the world shut down. Yes, and I was online, and I found an online writers group. It was all women, and the majority of them were from England. And so I was like, the minority being the American. And I met a beautiful lady online, and she had just started up a faith based publishing company. And so her and I were like, hey, you know, let's chat afterwards. And so we set up a zoom and chatted afterwards for a while. And I said, you know, I've had this idea. I've got a few stories in my head, but I would love to get other people's stories. You know about, you know, when Grace found them, and we were just chatting about grace, and she said, Well, let's figure out how to make this work. And so her and I actually start to together. Started those when Grace found me series, and we asked a few people, and then it kind of snowballed, because it was just going to be one, just going to be one book, 20 people done, once it reached 20, and we're like, oh, this, you know, we've got enough for a book. They're 1500 words each. The stories, they're beautiful. Let's do it. But then word of mouth got out somehow, online, and people kept coming forward. Well, I would like to participate, and I have a story, and it turned in. It went from one book to three books, and 2020, co authors in each book. And we, we published all of those within 12 months. Wow. It was so much work, so much work. But those, those stories, oh, my goodness, the the comments that we got after they were out, you know? And she, she's just started her little, tiny, little publishing company, and it was just, it was just amazing. What an amazing experience. And then I, you know, two years ago, I and I truly enjoy bringing folks together to share their stories, and I enjoy, you know, collaborating and coordinating all of these. And. And so the the last two have been paw prints on the couch and paw prints on the kitchen floor. And those are anthologies all about pets. You know, people are sharing their their stories about their pets and how they've enriched their lives or changed their lives or saved their lives, you know? And it's, it's just rewarding to me, and it's also fun to give folks that maybe have never written before, that chance to say I'm published in a book, you know? Because that's pretty exciting stuff for folks. And some folks are like, I've never aspired to be a writer, and I don't want to be, but I do want to share my story in this book. Yeah, you know. So it's been fun, and oh my goodness, I learned, I learned how to publish. You know, like I said, I like to learn. So I've learned so much about publishing and formatting and how to corral all the people that are involved in the book.   Michael Hingson ** 55:57 Have you? Have you converted any of them to audiobooks,   Kim Lengling ** 56:00 no, and I need to do that. I just don't have the funds to do that at this time. That's that's not something that's cheap, and I'm not set up to do it myself. I don't have the right I have the equipment, but I don't think it would be the quality that I want it to be if I did it myself, and I just don't have the funds to do that, and I would, I would love to do it for the paw prints books, both of them, for sure. And I'm considering do, because everybody's going, you have to, when's the third one coming out? And I said I wasn't really planning on and they're going, you have two, you have to do at least three, and then make it a series. So I was actually talking to a couple people today about it, and they're encouraging me to do a third one. So I probably will, you know, so that would come out next year sometime. But I don't know. I would like to, I would like to get audio books of all of them. I just have to reach a point where I'm able to do that and make it what's professionally done.   Michael Hingson ** 57:03 Yeah, yeah. AI is getting better, but I'm not sure that it's really there yet for doing recording of audio books, unless you've got a whole lot of equipment and can do various   Kim Lengling ** 57:15 things. I've played around listening to some of the different voices and stuff, and the inflect, the inflection just isn't there, yeah, I know, yeah. Some of them sound pretty good, but you don't get the correct pauses. And you know, you know what I mean. It just, you can tell, it's like, oh, that sounds pretty good. And then you're like, Ah, no, right there, nope, that just blew it.   Michael Hingson ** 57:38 Yeah? I I agree, and I fully understand. Well, so you've written non fiction? Is there a fiction book in your future?   Kim Lengling ** 57:47 I have one in my head, and it's been in there for several years, and it's been getting louder so and I've talked to other fiction writers, and they're going, okay, when you've got characters in your head and they're getting louder. That means you are supposed to be writing this book. Yeah. So this year, and we're almost done with this year, it the characters, and it's kind of kind of fantasy, kind of ish, young adult ish. I don't even know what it is yet, but I've got the characters in my head. I know what they look like. I know what they sound like. And, you know, there's wood sprites are involved, you know, wood sprites and animals are involved, heavily involved. They are the main characters of the story. So, yeah, I every once in a while, I sit down and I'll write, you know, maybe four or 500 words of it, and then I walk away. But I want to, they're getting louder. The characters are getting louder, so I need to sit down and just go, Kim,   Michael Hingson ** 58:50 let's get going. No, that's not why it's going to work. What's I know you're going to sit down and they're going to say, Kim, we're writing this book, right? Most characters are going to write the book   Kim Lengling ** 58:59 right. They're going to tell me what they're doing and what they're saying, that's for sure. And   Michael Hingson ** 59:03 you're in, you're going to do it, or they're going to get even louder,   Kim Lengling ** 59:08 you know? And it's, it's so interesting because I remember the first time I was talking to a fiction author, and they said my characters got so loud in my head, I didn't quite grasp what they were saying, but I found it fascinating, and now I understand what they were saying, yeah,   59:26 yeah. And   Kim Lengling ** 59:27 I joking, you know, I laugh. It's not joking. I laugh about it because they're like, Well, what? What do you have one character that's louder than the others? I said, Yes, and it's a female, and she's Irish,   Michael Hingson ** 59:38 there you are. So she's   59:39 yelling in her Irish accent.   Michael Hingson ** 59:42 You better listen, I haven't had that happen to me yet, so I haven't done a fiction book, but I'm sure the time is going to come and and we'll, we'll have fun with it. But when   Kim Lengling ** 59:55 it's I did, I wasn't expecting it to happen. It just it's there. There it   Michael Hingson ** 59:59 is. It. Exactly right, and that's been the case with with everything that I've done, especially over the past 23 years. And you know, I think it will happen more. I never thought I was going to be doing a podcast, but when the pandemic occurred, I started to learn about it, and then began working with accessibe, which is a company that makes products that help make the internet more inclusive and accessible for people with a lot of disabilities, and they asked me to do a podcast because I said I was learning about podcasting, and suddenly I've been doing unstoppable mindset now for over three years, and it's a lot of fun.   Kim Lengling ** 1:00:33 But you know, that's how my podcast started. Was in 2020 Yeah, we have an awful lot in common. Michael, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:44 well, we should collaborate on books, then that'll be the next thing.   Kim Lengling ** 1:00:48 Absolutely, I am open for that works for me. Awesome. You tell me when and where, and we'll I'll sit down and chat. We can brainstorm about it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:57 I'm ready any old time. Me too. And there you have it, friends, the beginning of a new relationship, and another book that will come out of it. And you heard it here first, on unstoppable mindset, that's right, it's now thrown out there. It is out there for the world to to see and hear. Well, I want to really thank you for being with us. We've been doing this an hour, and it's just has gone by, like priest lightning, and now we have next week on on your podcast, and that's going to be kind of fun.   1:01:27 Yeah, I'm looking forward to it really   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:31 me too, and, and I'm sure that Alamo is going to want to listen in over here. He's He's over here on his bed, and he if I close the door when I always close the door when I do the podcast, because otherwise the cat will invade and stitch wants attention when she wants attention. But if I close the door and Alamo is not in here, then he wants attention, or at least he wants in. So I always have to let Alamo in, but stitch doesn't need to be here. I've done one podcast where she sat on the top of my desk chair during the whole podcast,   Kim Lengling ** 1:02:07 I've had guests where their cat, they said, Do you mind? I said, No, I don't mind. I love animals. Their cat the entire time was walking across the desk in front of them the whole time. So the tail the entire time was just going back and forth. It was so comical. But then, you know, you're just like, We're just two people sitting at a kitchen table having coffee. That's how I like. That's   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:28 right. Well, stitch will come in occasionally, and if I let her, if I bring her in and I put her on the back of the desk chair, she'll stay there. And so she likes that. If she gets restless, then I've told her, You can't be too restless and you can't one out in the middle of a podcast. You're either here or you're not. Mostly she's agreeable. I want to thank you again for being here. This has been fun, and one of these days, we'll get out to Pennsylvania and visit. Or you can come out this way somehow. But I want to thank you for being here. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:08 Easiest way is to just go to my website, which is my name, Kim Lengling, author.com, that's K, I M, L, E N, G, l, I N, G. Author.com, you can find out what I'm doing

I have never had the pleasure of having a guest quite like Michele Blood. While still living in Australia Michele was an extremely successful rock singer. One day she was involved in a serious accident while being driven to a gig. Her body was, as she says, quite battered and damaged. What is fascinating about Michele's story is how she discovered the value of positive affirmations that she used to heal everything. As she will tell us, it is not just saying affirmations, but rather it is truly believing what you affirm. Her music became an integral of what healed her.   Since her recovery Michele has traveled the world singing and speaking on stage with many well-known motivational and thought leaders. I leave it to her to tell the story.   During our episode Michele will sing one of her affirmation songs. I hope you are as moved by the song in specific and by Michele's attitude and mindset in general. She teaches us a lot that can have nothing but positives effects on your life.   I look forward to hearing what you have to say about my time with Michele. Don't forget to get her free gifts available only to listeners of the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Is that cool or what?       About the Guest:   Michele Blood is a successful, multi-talented lady. Michele was a successful songwriter and rock singer in Australia and after a near-fatal car accident, while in the hospital with many serious injuries, she created positive Affirmation Songs which not only healed her body but also took her to worldwide success. These Affirmation songs affect the left and right hemispheres of the brain. Lyrics, the left hemisphere, and melody and music, the right hemisphere so the new, positive messages go straight to the subconscious mind. This is why millions of people worldwide have downloaded her Affirmation Power songs. These songs cover healing, success, money, joy, confidence and they uplift the person immediately.   In addition to creating Magnet To Success™ products and seminars worldwide, her public Mystical Success Events have been held in over 26 countries. Michele has co-written and created over 80 books, music CDs, audio programs, TV shows, and videos on positive thought, mind transformation, and meditation.   Michele has appeared in many hundreds of podcasts, radio/tv shows, and magazines globally. After many years of meditation, Michele's Kundalini awakened and transformed her consciousness. Michele now teaches others how to live a Successful Life and experience Divine Oneness. Her Mystical Experience webinars and live streams have assisted people globally to transform their lives to the positive. Through her Teachings and Light Transmissions, people awaken and experience what they say is the impossible. They awaken to their true purpose and begin their path to Enlightenment. She has shared the stage and worked with Bob Proctor, Dr. Deepak Chopra, Dr. Wayne Dyer, Jack Canfield, and many other transformational Authors and Teachers. Her latest book is The Magic Of Affirmation Power and her latest album is Create Miracles: Positive Affirmation Songs To Harmonize your Mind and Life. And her new Magnet To Money App will uplift millions worldwide.   Ways to connect with Michele:   https://www.MicheleBlood.com and https://www.YouTube.com/MicheleBlood   Michele would also love to gift your viewers and listeners her audiobook, "The Magic Of Affirmation Power" Your audience can download this free gift by going to: https://www.MicheleBlood.com/UnstoppableMindset   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected, which is really the most fun part, meet today. We are getting close to winter, and I was just telling our guest Michele Blood that here in Victorville, we had a temperature this morning of 28 degrees. Ah, lovely weather, and all the weather people complain about now it's getting cold in the summer, they complained it was getting hot. You know, you can't please them. I don't know what to say. But anyway, one of these days they'll, they'll decide that whatever happens is is not a bad thing, and they'll stop complaining, I guess. But any Yeah. But anyway, Michele, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Thank you.   Michele Blood ** 02:06 Michael, I've been so looking forward to this. After reading thunder dog, I'm going to be reading the second book, which is live like a guide dog. I'm going to be reading that after that, I absolutely adore this book, which I'm showing right now, Thunder dog. It's the most inspirational you can't put down. I mean, the lot not just getting down 78 floors of the Twin Towers, 78 stairs. I mean, oh my gosh. But then everything that you've done in between working with you know Ray Kurzweil, who's done a lot of things in the music industry as well. I mean, I mean, I recognized his name straight away. I'm like, all the all the things you've done. I'm just so impressed by and by your life and how inspiring you are. And I just wanted to say that to everybody, he's just, you gotta get his thunder dog book if you haven't yet, and his new book, live like a guide dog, for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 03:02 I I don't know. I haven't totally kept up, but I haven't heard that anybody has yet come out with a music synthesizer that is better than the Kurzweil synthesizer. Now, a lot has happened, and maybe technology has advanced, but I hadn't heard about anything that still beats it.   Michele Blood ** 03:20 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the fair light was pretty amazing when that first came out, but the Kurzweil, I mean, all any rock musician knows about, yeah, when, when that was first put out, we were just like, oh my gosh, that's amazing, you know, because you could sample sounds and, you know, it was just   Michael Hingson ** 03:39 incredible, and it had a choir built into it. Yeah? Daylight though   Michele Blood ** 03:43 that was, I don't know, think back back in the day, it was like 100 grand, so that's probably why it wasn't as popular. Yeah,   03:51 a little more   Michael Hingson ** 03:52 expensive than the Kurzweil one. Yeah, yeah, our organist at our church where my wife and I went in Irvine and where we got married, our organist had a Kurzweil synthesizer and used it a lot, which was, which was kind of fun, and it was, it was very and it is very impressive all the way around, yeah, but   Michele Blood ** 04:13 just the innovative things that have been done, and you're helping ray with all of the things for the blind as well. Working with Stevie Wonder. I mean, it's just, you're very impressive. You're an inspiration. You are, you are absolutely amazing.   Michael Hingson ** 04:28 Well, thank you. But now let's talk about you a little bit. And you know, you can, you can.   04:35 I didn't show them the cover yet. You can   Michael Hingson ** 04:38 spread any rusty live like a guide dog. Live   04:42 like a guide dog. Needs to cover everybody   Michael Hingson ** 04:45 well, I hope people will get it. I'm we're excited about it. It's been out now a few months. It seems to be selling. We're excited. So hopefully people will read it, and it inspires people a little bit, because it's all about. Are trying to get people to learn to control fear and not let it overwhelm or, as I put it, blind you. But anyway, tell us a little bit about you. Why don't you start with the the early Michele, growing up, and some of those kinds of things, just kind of introduce us to you a little bit.   Michele Blood ** 05:16 Well, I'm an Aussie G'day, everyone. G'day, and, in Australia, I started in the entertainment industry at the age of five, on TV. What   Michael Hingson ** 05:27 did you do? Singing? Oh, okay,   Michele Blood ** 05:31 you know. And then eventually got my, you know, had lots and lots of rock bands I sang in, until eventually I got my own rock band that became very successful. I was the lead singer, one of the main songwriters and the manager of the band. We got a great record label. We had 1000s of people coming to our gigs, and it took years to get there, but I loved it so much, even though it's very, very tough at one stage, we toured for seven years, non stop. I mean, no Christmases, no New Year's eves, because when you're in a rock band, you get paid triple on New Year's Eves and Christmases and stuff like that. Yeah, and you can't really say no until you're really huge. You can't really say no to any gig, because you need the money road crew and sound equipment trucks and all the rest of it so but I feel that my life went on a whole new trajectory after a near fatal truck accident, actually, where I was a passenger with the truck, with all the equipment, and my body was so badly broken, I was In the hospital for months and months and months and and that was the best thing that ever happened to me. I know that sounds crazy everybody, but truly, when you have something so terrible happen to you, and it gets turned around by the Divine, whatever you choose to call God, it gets your life gets turned around and it makes all the difference in the world. So that's the first quarter.   Michael Hingson ** 07:08 Well, you know, I'm really curious. You said something that just strikes a question. I know that a lot of people try to go into entertainment, and most probably aren't overly successful. But why do you think that you were so successful? What what made the rock group and and what you did so successful? Do you have a notion? Well,   Michele Blood ** 07:30 I loved what I did. I was very, very good at it. And not everyone that's good at it's probably other singers in the world that are better than me. But the reason, I think because, I mean, I had some backing vocals on some records, and these female singers were incredible. And one of them said, I know you've got a good voice, Michelle, but I don't know why it's you and not me. And I said, I think it's just that I never gave up, and I was really disciplined. And I, you know, I wasn't on the road of sex, drugs and rock and roll. I was on the road of discipline, making sure that all my band members were disciplined. We worked really, really hard. We rehearsed a lot. We never blew out a gig, not once. So you get a good reputation. And so I started as a cover band, and we would sound just like the records at the time of the 80s. You know, people said that was a band. It sounded like a record. And so then we, we eventually started putting all our originals in and, I mean, I did crazy things, Michael, I went into Time Warner to the A and R people, because I wasn't getting any feedback. It's really hard. You can't just send them a tape to get you know for them to listen to your demos. So I went in as a tap dancing singing telegram. And so the secretary let me go straight into the office, and it was a board meeting, and because she thought, you know, their family had so I was there with flowers and a cake and my ghetto blaster, and I said, Then I did a tap dance, and I made up this song about, you know, this is, this is the band called clapping hands. You're going to sign them, you're going to want them. And this is a singing telegram saying, Listen to this. And that's how I got my first record deal.   Michael Hingson ** 09:24 Creativity counts for something. It   Michele Blood ** 09:25 sure does. You've gotta have guts. And I mean, I by the time I walked out of that office, though I was sweating, I was shaking, but you have to do something to be noticed. And and I think because I love people so much, and because I'd been singing professionally since I was five, which means I was singing for family members and everyone since I was two, apparently getting being put on the kitchen table. And I loved people being happy, and I love loved entertaining. I just loved it. So I think, you know, it's in the stars as. Well, I know that, but I think discipline, hard work eventually never giving up. Yeah, what can I say? Never giving up.   Michael Hingson ** 10:08 Did you so you were a cover band for for a while, which meant you were the the opening band for other groups,   Michele Blood ** 10:17 not as a cover band, well, with the opening act for the pretenders and in excess and a few other bands, when we were an original band and when we had a record label, right, when we had videos on TV, but before that, now we do five to 645, minute sets a night, and we would stay at one big venue, because in back in the day in Australia, the venues were huge for cover bands. You know, four to 6000 people could come in, and we got, we got very, very popular as a cover band, and then we went original. But it took a few years to do that, for sure, but   Michael Hingson ** 10:55 I remember, I remember bands back in the 50s and 60s, like the platters, who actually were the opening band, or they were the band that were the background for other singers. And then somebody discovered these guys really are better than that, and then they became their own group, right?   Michele Blood ** 11:14 Yeah, yeah. It's interesting how, how it all works out. But in Australia, it's, it's a tough way to tour when you're a female singer, because the Aussies are pretty tough. If they don't like you, you can get B canes thrown at you.   Michael Hingson ** 11:32 Yeah, well, those kinds of things do happen. Yes, they did in Boston for for sports teams. I've heard of fans really being very brutal to like the the Patriots. I think when Steve Grogan was the quarterback, they actually booed him off the field once. It was pretty amazing. I don't know. You know that's people take some of these things way too seriously. They   Michele Blood ** 12:00 certainly do. I like what Oscar Wilde said, Life is too serious to be taken seriously. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:09 yeah, absolutely, and, but people still do it way too much. Which is, which is, which is a problem. Yes, you know, we need people to take life more like Mark Twain and Will Rogers, by all means, but I can co so you, you had a serious car accident, and as you said, It really broke your body. Tell us what you'd like to about that and and then how you dealt with it, because that, that was quite a, I won't say miraculous. That was quite a marvel. You. You certainly took a leap along the way with that.   Michele Blood ** 12:50 Yeah, it's such a unique story. Um, after you know the truck driver we've been driving for 12 hours from Brisbane to Sydney, from gig to keep and he fell asleep at the wheel just as we reached Sydney, which happened to be right across the road from the best orthopedic specialist hospital in Sydney. So thank you, God, you know. Yeah, there's no coincidences. There's no accidents. So they got me over there really fast, and they had me straight into the operating theater straight away. So, I mean, I had tons of different operations, but what happened was, when you're in physics, that much physical agony, you pass out every few minutes. Mm, hmm, and, but I had people and fans and family putting on audio programs of things I'd never heard of before, Affirmations, Visualization, positive stuff, audio books by motivational speakers, inspirational speakers who I'd never heard of, but one of them got to me, and that was a book by a man called Napoleon Hill who wrote a book called Think and Grow Rich. Grow Rich, right? And I didn't care about hearing about all the millionaires in the 1920s in America, male men. Why would a female, young Australian rock singer care about that? But one chapter in there, he talks about how his infant son was born deaf, and he would go into his infant son's room every single night and do affirmations, auto suggestion, you hear perfectly. You are so loved, and you are so loving, etc, etc. And by the time a little boy was nearly four, he had 30% of his hearing. And you know when you hear something, I've never heard of this before, Michael, but you know when you hear something for the first time and you can feel it that it's true. You've just heard something that you know in the marrow of your bones that that what you've just heard is true. So I said, Okay, I can, I can run. Relate to that, because I know that I've used my willpower and my positive thinking, My I've never said I can't do something, I can't have that drama that I want. I've never said that. I've always said it's all possible. Everything is possible. You just go for it. Michelle, and I'd always just go for it. And I was brought up a Catholic, and I wasn't brought up. I wasn't one of those people that hated the church. I loved it. So I always had a belief in God, because I used to go to mass as a little girl every morning with the nuns, because I was in love with Jesus, and I just felt so I had that spirituality in me, and I think that is what is the backbone. You know, in the Bible, it says you do not need to be strong, because Christ is my strength. Christ is your strength. And so now I know that there is so much more to spirituality than just Jesus, but it was a great start for my faith in my life, and it gave me happiness. And so I just had faith that this would work, so I started doing affirmations, but they didn't work. Michael, do you want to know why? Sure, yeah, we've got nothing else to do today, right? May as well. Hear about it well, because neuroscience has proven now that affirmations do work and they do positive thinking actually does make a difference in the brain, in the neural pathways. It does make a difference. It ignites something in different parts of the brain. But back then, in the 80s, there was no way to prove that, you know, let alone Napoleon Hill in the 1920s but the thing that he said was most important is, you have to believe it. You have to emotionalize it. But I couldn't, Michael, I couldn't emotionalize it because I would. I started an affirmation, I am healed. I know I am. I love myself. I am my friend. Now, none of those things were true, so I thought, but I did want them to be true, so I thought, great, I've got the perfect affirmation. But when you are feeling like you're feeling and the world around you is presenting the opposite of what you're saying. Your doubting mind spits it out and does not believe it. So about two, three weeks after stopping the affirmations, because I realized that didn't work, I literally had a spiritual epiphany, and it was, you know, as a songwriter, Michelle, you can't get a song out of your head, even if it's songs you don't like or jingles from advertising agencies. So sing your affirmations. Because I got my brother to look around for affirmation songs, and he said, there isn't any such thing. And so I started singing,   Speaker 1 ** 17:58 I am healed. I know I am I love myself. I am my friend. And   Michele Blood ** 18:05 I recorded it onto a cassette player, just a cappella over and over again. And that was the beginning. As I listened to that all day, every day I would I started feeling better. I started getting back to my attitude, that I can, I can heal it just I realized. And when I was working with Bob Proctor, he said, you know why that works so well? He said, It's because the left side of the brain is where the lyrics are, the affirmation, the right side the melody. And this is even before I started recording it with music, and so you have a whole brain experience. And the song, the doubting mind doesn't have a chance to reject it. It goes straight into your subconscious mind. So that's how my positive affirmation pop music began. I didn't stop doing my other music, but I did have what they said, even the doctors, even though they're not supposed to say it, they said my healing was miraculous, and I ended up on TV shows and in the press and everything about what I'd been through for inspiration. And that's how it all began.   Michael Hingson ** 19:16 It. It really is all about believing it. It's it is so easy just to say something, but without truly accepting it, without truly making it a part of your psyche. However you do that it, it doesn't mean a thing. Don't   Michele Blood ** 19:32 mean a thing if it ain't something. Yeah, you do have to laugh. Do up, do up, do   Michele Blood ** 19:43 Yeah, music makes the world go around. It does,   Michael Hingson ** 19:48 and it's so important to take it seriously enough that you truly do believe it, and that's what's so important. And clearly. What you did? So what happened you you got healed completely, I would assume from all that had happened,   Michele Blood ** 20:10 yeah, I mean, it's still it still took quite a while, but I was determined. I put my high shoes back on, even though they said, don't wear high shoes. And I never intended for the affirmation music to go out to the public. My one of the band members that I work with and wrote songs with John Beatty, Hi John. He he's in person now in Australia with millions of kids, but anyway, we won't help me. Listens, yeah, we went into the recording studio and we, we just started recording. I was writing a lot of songs, and we started recording tons of different affirmation songs in all different styles of you know, from R and B to just rock to ballads to depending on what the song was about, whether it was about, you know, divine love, more of a ballad, more of a some of them just more rock and roll about being successful. And when the press found out that I was actually doing that, then promoters that were bringing out American very, very big, best selling authors asked me to come and do my singing affirmations in between these people. And I said, No, I don't want to do that. I'm not doing it for the public. Was just for me, my band, to have these positive thoughts. And they said, No, we love it. We love it. We want you to do it. And so my very first gig, I'm in Adelaide, Australia, and there's three and a half 1000 people on a Wednesday that came to this gig that paid over $300 each for a ticket, which I thought was absolutely insane. I didn't know what was going on. And I sang, and got all the people up on stage singing the affirmation songs with me made it into like a mini rock concert. And then Deepak Chopra, this, who I'd never heard of, never met before. Wayne Dyer, who I'd never heard of, never met before. Tony Alessandra, Stuart, wild, they were the speakers, and they couldn't believe it when we went out to dinner that night that I've never heard of any of them. And I said, I'm in rock and roll. I'm not in the motivational world. You know, I've, I've never heard of you, because I've not in that world. And so they were interested in how it all began, and they all said, You've got to tour this around the world. You've got to you've got to release these that we love. What you're doing. The audience is so different. Bob Proctor, though he was the one, when I ended up working with him, the promoters said, you know, we've got this female Australian singer, and you're going to be touring with her? And he said, No, I don't want a female singer. I'm Bob Proctor. I don't need that anyway. The first gig I did with him in Sydney, he came out after, and he said, I didn't want to work with a singer. And I said, good to meet you too, mate. I Yes, how are you? And he said, but no, all kidding aside. He said, My wife and I, Linda, we loved it so much, and I want you to work with me all over the world, doing events. So eventually I end up working with Bob for seven years straight. We wrote books together. We wrote music together. We put on huge events. I took over his business, looked after it, and from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, where I lived, and then, and it was just very, very interesting. I've worked in over 26 countries, huge, huge audiences. The biggest one I had was 50,000 people. So to say it was successful is an understatement, but I didn't plan it. I didn't visualize it, but I had always planned on being very well known singer, but it but not to be a positive affirmation or singer. I'd never thought of that, but eventually I went off the grid and started really getting into deep meditation practice and getting off the that whole circuit, because I wanted to find God within me. So that was what happened. And it was fascinating, because it's like working with all these, you know, rock musicians, male rock musicians, and then working with all these male best selling authors. I'm like, I'm always surrounded by the boys.   Michael Hingson ** 24:46 Hey, whatever works, it's, it's interesting though, that that you, you did so much of this, I gather that the audience is reacted very positively, though. Um. Have you heard from anyone that it really changed their life to have encountered you and heard you when you performed? Oh,   Michele Blood ** 25:10 yeah, we've had millions. I mean, we've got a lot of our video video testimonials and testimonials from not just best selling authors that I've worked with, but also from people from all over the world. I work with people in over 32 countries now, and some of them don't even speak English, but they still feel the vibration. And a lot of different people have started singing my songs in different languages, which I allow anyone to do. They don't have to pay me a royalty. They can just do it whatever brings positivity to the world and change within someone, so that they can get out of that rabbit hole. Because you're, you know, your whole podcast about unstoppable mindset. Well, this is such a a great new beginning is to just have to listen to a song. Yeah? And, you know, there's so I've got hundreds of songs to choose from, so it's a good it's a good way to start, because music, you know, like I always say to people, if you have the blues, even though I like blues and I think it's brilliant, but if you have the blues, probably best not to listen to the blues. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 26:21 definitely, definitely true. Well, of course, one has to ask if, if you have one, not necessarily long, but that you want to sing for us all.   Michele Blood ** 26:38 Yeah, I can. I didn't have anything set up. But if you'd like to chat for a minute, I'll just get something set up for you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 26:45 okay, we can, we can do that. I do. I do agree with you that if you've got the blues, you don't want to listen to the blues. I I personally like happy stuff. I like musicals, especially when they're they're happy musicals. I've always enjoyed that. I do listen and read science fiction and sometimes read some some pretty horrific things. But I've noticed later in my life I'm doing less of that because I, although I like mysteries, I don't like nowadays really graphical or very graphic murder mysteries and things like that, and so people call the kinds of things that I probably typically like cozy mysteries. I wouldn't say that Rex Stout books about neural wolf the private detective are necessarily cozy, but by the same token, they're not the most graphic things, and I've always enjoyed them because they're puzzles. And I love mysteries that are really puzzles that I can become engaged in and try to solve, and musicals I like just because they're fun and and they're they're very happy for the most part. And so again, they're, they're very relevant to to want to listen to. So I, I tend to do that. So it's a lot of fun to keep in the the spirit of reasonably happy and stay away from the blues. Okay,   Michele Blood ** 28:17 I've got something set up now, alright, saying low battery, but oh, sorry. What happened there? There it is. There it is. This song is called synergy. I wrote it with Bob Proctor. Can you hear the music?   Michael Hingson ** 28:35 It's a little low, but yes, go ahead. Better. Yep,   Speaker 1 ** 28:40 there's a way to get it moving, to make it happen, to get high. Can barely flooded in the clouds, join thoughts and let them fly. When your mind joins in with others and all your thoughts to one a US. Energy begins to sizzle and it's energy positive energy synergy. It's energy, hot energy, positive energy turn into synergy. Together, creative power will start to flow. Things begin to happen. You're a church with Synergy. Red Hot energy, positive energy grows into synergy. It's energy, hot energy, positive energy grows into synergy.   Michele Blood ** 29:55 You shine and become magnetic, you'll draw the good. People out the world will be a better place, and everyone will start to shout, face to face, building   Speaker 2 ** 30:12 energy. Taste. The taste is this energy, thoughts, launching into one, a new boss have become this is synergy.   Speaker 1 ** 30:23 It's synergy, red hot energy, positive energy, delta, synergy, it's synergy.   Michael Hingson ** 30:34 There you go. Now   30:36 that's Bob Proctor. Wrote the lyrics for that.   Michael Hingson ** 30:41 But, um, who was the male voice near the end? Oh, the   Michele Blood ** 30:44 male voice was a American guy in who was singing covers in Kuala Lumpur when I lived there, Ah, okay, and I just hired him to come and and do that in the studio in Kuala Lumpur, yeah. But the other affirmation songs are more simple, but they're still got, you know, like a good dance beat, some of them are ballads greeting the day with love in your heart. It just depends on where you want to take your mind that day. Do you want to open your heart? Do you want to be like listen to the persistent song. Do you want to feel more successful? You listen to the success song, which is like 50s, rock and roll. So they're all different. They're all different product, production. So it was a lot of fun changing the different styles for each song depending on the lyrics.   Michael Hingson ** 31:34 Well, if people want to get those affirmation songs and so on, are they available for people to get? Yeah,   Michele Blood ** 31:41 all my albums are sold all over the world, and iTunes, of course, Amazon. My own website is magnet to success. Com. My YouTube channel is Michelle blood.com forward slash YouTube. But I've got lovely giveaways for your for your audience, if you'd like me to share that. Well, we will   Michael Hingson ** 32:03 do that a little bit, okay, but I really appreciate you seeing synergy. I will be, I will be saying that to myself the rest of the day, which is fine, but you know, you mentioned the blues and so on. So here's a question, if somebody is really down and really frustrated, how can they change their life to the positive?   Michele Blood ** 32:31 Well, first of all, even if they are really down, you've got to know, no matter what is going on in your life, that everything is possible for you, and that you can get out of that rabbit hole, and that you are you might feel alone, but you're never alone. Whether you believe in God or you don't believe in God, there is a God and you are looked after. You can pray without begging just giving. One of the most wonderful things you can do is just to start to write down what you're thankful for immediately. If you can say thank you divine, or just thank you for my beautiful life, and if then you can begin to write down what a beautiful life would look like for you, just start writing it down, even though it's not true yet. Like, let's start thinking about what can be done. What do you what sort of friends do you want? What sort of lifestyle do you want? You know, start thinking of others as well. Whenever we can do something, if we can do something every single day that makes somebody else happy, whether it's feeding the homeless or sending funny kitten videos to your friends. You if you can do something every day that brings happiness to somebody else or takes them out of suffering, well, then it'll take you out of yourself. Because if, if it's something emotional that you're going through, that means that you're going to sometimes we do need to go through the emotion, particularly if we're mourning the loss of something or someone that's important and healthy. But it is also important to stop thinking about ourselves so much and look at what can be done for the world. I love I love Saint Vincent de Paul. I love the Salvation Army so much, so you can tithe to them anonymously. If you want to do something you don't know what to do, even if it's just a buck, five bucks, it's really good to tithe to charities that are doing good in the world. And I'm sure there's a charity that you could recommend to us, Michael, that will help with the blind. If you got one, you can recommend?   Michael Hingson ** 34:43 Well, I think there, there really are a number of of places to donate. One of my favorites is the National Federation of the Blind, nfb.org, because it's, it's a consumer organization that fights for the rights of. Of blind people around the United States and actually around the world. And it's the NFB is the largest consumer organization of blind people in this country and, in fact, in the world. But it has made such a difference in the lives of blind people. For example, through the National Federation of blind we completely changed the life insurance industry that refused to provide life insurance for any blind person up until the mid 1980s and when it was finally discovered that they were denying us, not because they had any evidence and actual mathematical models that proved that we were a risk, which is what they're supposed to do. They were doing it strictly out of prejudice. And so now every state in the union, because of the Federation, has actually passed legislation that says you can't discriminate unless you've got real evidence. Well, it's been 40 years, and nobody's come up with evidence that we're a higher risk simply because we're blind or other persons with disabilities, their disabilities directly make them a higher risk. So, you know, that's that's definitely one of my favorite organizations to support. And   Michele Blood ** 36:13 nfb.org everybody. Nfb.org I've written it down for me to start tithing there as well. And,   Michael Hingson ** 36:20 you know, and there, there are so many others. Another organization that I tend to like, it's a very small organization, is advocates for service animal partners asap.org, and and it fights for the rights of people with a variety of disabilities who use service animals, service dogs, to be able to take their dogs with them, where wherever they go, because we're denied. So awesome. So I like asap.org as well.   Michele Blood ** 36:51 I love what you did. I think it was you and Ray and his wife. You were going to a particular restaurant and a a suity maitre d snotty, snooty, wouldn't let you in with your blind dog, with your with your guide dog, right? And and she was really upset the wife. And so you end up gathering quite a few of your friends that are blind, that have guide dogs, and you went in, and he had to oblige and let you all in. And everyone was very nice to you. So that was really good, because that it, it's, it's illegal for them to say you can't come in with your guide dog. It is   Michael Hingson ** 37:28 illegal, and it has been illegal for a long time. One of my favorite stories, which really wasn't a bad story at all, there used to be a restaurant in Boston in Quincy Market called Durgan Park. And Durgan Park was was basically family style, although around the outside of the room they had tables for four but you couldn't sit at one of those tables unless you had four people. Well, we came in one night and there were only three of us and my dog, Holland, and the the host has said, You know what, I'm going to make an exception and let you sit at this table for four so Holland was under the table, and there were three of us, and the waitress came up, and the waitresses at Durgan Park are known as snots. I mean, they're, they're, they're, they're supposed to be really rough and all that. It's just part of the schtick. But she came up and she said, What are you people doing sitting here? And he said, well, the host has put us here. No, she didn't. You're just sitting here. No, she did. It's because of the dog under the table. No, there's no dog under the table. You're not going to make me fall for that. And she walks away, and then she comes back and she said, you're not supposed to be sitting here and all that. I said, Look, there's a dog under the table. Take a look. And it took a while, but I finally got her to look, and there's Holland staring at her with these big brown eyes when she lifts up the the tablecloth, and the next thing I know, she comes back with a big plate. Jurgen Park has very good sized portions of frying rib and says, Can I give this to the dog, oh, and, and normally, I would never do that, but in the for to promote goodwill, I said, Okay, which Hall of love? And, you know, I knew the food there was good, but, you know, it was, it was just one of those great stories. But, yeah, all too often that isn't the way it goes. We see so many challenges with Uber, for example, so many drivers refuse to take blind people or other people with disabilities who have service dogs. It's against the rules, and they say, but it's our car. No, you signed a contract that said that you are going to transport the public, so it is illegal for you to deny us. But they do, and that's one of the things that ASAP, for example, is really working on to address, to get Uber, to recognize that it has to enforce the law like everyone else. But it's a challenge. People come from all sorts of different points of view. You know, with   Michele Blood ** 39:59 the name like. Uber. How could they do that? They're not being very Uber.   40:04 Well, there you go.   Michele Blood ** 40:07 Wow. That's interesting in this day and age. Absolutely, it continues all too often. So many people have slipped into something more comfortable, like a coma. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 40:18 Now you and your team have created an app. I think it's called what magnet to money. Tell us about that. Yeah,   Michele Blood ** 40:24 it was interesting. Thanks, Michael. I wanted to do because sometimes people like you were talking earlier, how do they get out of their you know, their depression, or whatever they're going through that they're feeling, how do they get out of that rabbit hole? So if you're feeling that way, and your mindset is in a negative state of mind, and you're emotionally not feeling well, well, then it's very, very challenging for you to want to put on some positive, you know, affirmation music. Because I know when I was in the hospital, if people came in and they were too chirpy. I would couldn't wait for them to go because I wasn't oscillating at that frequency. Yeah, you know. So they're all Oh, hi. And so I thought, wouldn't it be great if we had an app and it would just play? As you know, they can choose the notifications how often it will play. And so Polly fella, Trevor Rogers and Johnny and Dara and myself, we worked really hard, especially Holly fella, to develop this app. And it took about two and a half years to develop it. And it's got morning meditations. It's got tons of affirmations with music underneath. It's got a sleep program to help. As they're sleeping, people are sleeping, I'm very softly saying affirmations and positive you know, feed, feed to their minds. And it's also got notifications, so the magnet to money song will play whatever they want to, so they don't have to even remember to and eventually, like someone the other day, said she was in a bank and she had the magnet to Money App, and she had it as her ringtone as well. And she's in this big bank that was hardly anybody in there, but it was quite chamber ish, Echo ish, and she said, and her phone was on pretty loud. It started, I'm a magnet to money came on really loud, and everyone started laughing. They're like, well, that's sort of, I guess, you know, a good thing to play in a bank. Yeah, works. So, yeah, the magnet to Money App is fantastic. App. It's got so much on it, and it's got an audio book you get for free from myself and Bob Proctor called magnet to money through the sea of unlimited consciousness, one one of our books that we did as an audio book, and we thought we've also got a free app, because that magnet to Money App is only about, I think it's $4 or something A month, but the affirmation power app is free, and on that tons of affirmations, plus my affirmation music videos is on there as well. So that's free, if anybody wants that.   Michael Hingson ** 43:13 So yeah, so is that available with Android and Apple and iPhone? No,   Michele Blood ** 43:17 just, just apple at the moment, because to develop for an Android is much more complicated because there are so many different companies, yeah, yes, whereas Apple, it's just the iPhone, but we do intend to, but it's, you know, we've got the manifestation video app as well, and we've got a New App coming out, which is all my audio books. And I'm doing a new audio book every month, not just my books on audio, but other people's books on audio as well. And then the next step after that, is a prayer app, talking about prayer, how to pray, and for me, teaching people the power of prayer. So it's really lovely to be able to do apps that have got positive, you know, the very, very, you know, if they were to buy all those individual products from me to cost hundreds dollars, and this way it's just a few dollars a month all free for them to get all my positive songs and books and all that sort of thing.   Michael Hingson ** 44:17 How do people search for these apps that in the in the app store. I think   Michele Blood ** 44:22 that if they just go under, look under Michelle blood, okay, under my name, yeah, okay, they'll just come up. I   Michael Hingson ** 44:29 will, I will be doing that this afternoon. I think that's that's pretty cool. You know, in in our world today, we become so materialistic in so many ways, but at the same time, a lot of people have really become students of your affirmations and so on. How did they really become students? And I think even more important, one of the questions that I would ask is. How does it really transform, or did it really transform people's consciousness and set them on a road toward a more spiritual path? Because I think in so many ways, we don't see people doing that, and at the same time, I know there are a lot of people who do, but by the same token, there's so many people who go, oh, this is just all pokem. It doesn't really mean anything, but that's just not true.   Michele Blood ** 45:24 Well, I think it's, it's an interesting question to answer, because there are so many different types of people in the world, and we can't expect to change people. They have to, you know, I don't want anyone to suffer. Michael, first of all, so I think having positive thoughts in their head is going to actually make them think less of themselves, believe it or not, these the way the lyrics are done, and more of joy and sharing and caring about other people, because it is so important to to do that, because people, if they get too much into themselves, Like I say to people, don't buy anything if you're buying it. For someone else to be to compliment you, that's a really good way of deciding what you're going to purchase in your life. If you're doing it to you know, to say, Oh, I've got this really nice car. Look how great I am. But get it if you want a good car. Get it because you want a nice, safe car that's good for the environment, but don't get it so that you will impress other people. Unless you're a real estate agent, they do need good cars, apparently, to drive people around, yeah, I guess so. Drive people around,   Michael Hingson ** 46:35 but, or drive people crazy, yeah,   Michele Blood ** 46:37 but. But I also think it's important that that if you want to, you can't tell someone to be more spiritual. They have to get into a positive frame of mindset first. Because when you're in a positive frame of mindset, you start feeling more of a heart blow, more love. And even if you don't believe in God, you believe in love everybody, I know you do, so whether it's your animal that you love, because every animal is an angel, whether it's nature, smelling the remembering to stop and smell the flowers, remembering to not let yourself complain. Complaining will take you down a rabbit hole of absolute negativity and please. People remember, the only reason you're complaining is because you're feeling fear about losing something or not getting something that you want. And so if you can stop complaining for 28 days straight, you will change your life. And I know that sounds impossible, but many people can do it, because I've seen my students do it. So if you can stop complaining and stop half if you're halfway through a complaint about something or someone or politics or Trump or whatever in the hell it is, stop yourself halfway through and just say, Why am I complaining? And people are complaining because they're in fear. If you can stop and be mindful enough to say, I'm complaining because I'm afraid of something, and I don't want to face it and find out what you're afraid of, the thing that you're afraid of will dissipate. Yeah, it really will. So I think that's a really good place to start listening to the positive songs, for sure, going to every single unstoppable mindset podcast you possibly can go to reading Michael's books, and also, just knowing that you can get out of that rabbit hole, it is totally possible, and I've seen it in people from all different cultures and religious backgrounds all over the world. I've traveled to so many different countries, and have so many different audiences, and everybody wants to be loved and be loved in return. And everybody wants to see other people happy at their core. They really do. We don't want to make people unhappy, do you? So stop complaining.   Michael Hingson ** 49:07 You know, it's, it's interesting that you, you talk about all this, one of the things that we talk a lot about, and you'll see it and live like the guide dog, is that we need to become more introspective. Because if we do and we really look at ourselves daily, and, for example, look at what worked today, what didn't work. Why didn't it work? You eventually get to what was I really afraid of? And if you really stop to think about that and go, I didn't need to be afraid of that, your life will change, which is really, as you're pointing out, what it's all about.   Michele Blood ** 49:44 Excellent, excellent. I'm looking forward to reading that as well, and then I've already told everyone to get thunder dog on all my lists. But now I'll be, after I read the next one, I'll be telling them to read that as well, because we're on the same page. Michael.   Michael Hingson ** 49:59 Tell me a little bit about something I've read in your bio, how you went from affirmations to a full kundalini awakening.   Michele Blood ** 50:09 Well, when I was working with Bob Proctor in Asia, I was saying to him one day, I feel this heart blow like I feel like my heart is out of my chest, and I feel such deep love. And it's not for any person, place or thing. It's for everything, actually, but it's beyond that. It's divine. And he said, you're looking for an enlightened teacher. That's what you need. And I said, Well, where do you find an enlightened teacher, and what exactly is that? And he got me to read Autobiography of a Yogi by Hara mahansa Yogananda. And I'd read it before, but I didn't really get it like I did this time when I read it, and I realized that enlightenment wasn't just one person. People can actually meditate and go into higher states of consciousness, but I wasn't thinking of how is an enlightened being around in this modern world? That can't be right? Because I it must be like unless it's Asia maybe. He said, I don't know. He said, I did have a Canadian man who was enlightened, who taught me for three years before he died, left the body. And he said, you just have to pray for it and know that the teacher and the student will find each other. It took me 14 years of searching all over the world, and eventually I found an enlightened teacher in all places America, and I decided to go off the grid, and I really had to to study with her as a student, because she didn't like us to be on Facebook or social media. She said, you don't want attention on yourself when you're studying with me, because you want to be able to go in deeply. Yeah. So I went off. I studied with her for 12 years, but after the first few years, I went into a full awakening myself, never expecting that. Didn't expect it to happen to me. I thought, how could a rock singer in Australia, have a kundalini awakening, but I did, and now I love to teach mysticism and spirituality and meditation practice to students from all over the world. And I love to do it. I think there's so many tools in the toolbox of life, whatever sort of personality you have, whether you're extremely religious or you just want to have more positive outcome. You want to become healthier. I think meditation practice is good for everybody. You do not have to be religious or think of spirituality to enjoy a quiet mind. It'll slow down your blood pressure. It will give you pump your blood, it'll stop your mind from going down a million rabbit holes where your senses take you. I just think meditation practice is a miraculous, privileged thing to do.   Michael Hingson ** 52:53 I agree. And you know, one of the things that it's a little bit off topic for what you just said, but we were talking earlier about people praying and looking for so many things. I'm amazed at how many people pray to God, telling God what they want and what they think they need. And I'm sitting there whenever I hear about that today, especially, I think, Wait a minute, God already knows that what you need to do is to listen to get the response, and thank God for the response, but people just don't do that. I'm just so amazed at at that. But it's it is so true that we spend too much time not doing the thing that we really need to do, which is listening and talking with God, not talking to God.   Michele Blood ** 53:46 Yeah, that's why I I'm loving recording the new prayer app, because I explain to people what prayer actually is. It's not If you do this for me, God, I'll start, stop eating pizza, yeah? Or maybe trade off. So I teach people what prayer actually is, and it's, it's really the most sacred thing and beautiful thing, and it will uplift you, even if you just, I've got a section where they I'm praying for others, so they can just listen to any different topic of what type of prayer, but the main thing for me was explaining, doing the introduction of what prayer is and how to pray, because so many people have no idea what prayer really is, that communion with your higher self, and once you get to understand what that is, then you can hear that still, small voice you can literally hear through. Ah, your intuition becomes stronger you can and intuition is you being in tune with your higher self. And your higher self is omniscient wisdom. It created everything so it knows what. To tell you to do, and it will bring into your experience everything when you accept, when you can be open and receptive to receive and to give, just sort of let yourself go, just surrender to that divine Higher Self, when you can learn how to do that. That's another thing that I do on this prayer app is teach you what surrender really means and how you can do it. It's not taking your willpower away from you, because everyone that's a gift that we've been given. So we can make good choices in life, sometimes bad choices, but we can use our willpower to get ourselves out of that rabbit hole. So thank you for asking that. Michael, it's   Michael Hingson ** 55:41 extremely important to be able to do that. Well, you mentioned earlier that you had gifts for people listening to this podcast. Love it if you tell us about that,   Michele Blood ** 55:52 yes, yummy gifts. If you go to Michelle. Blood com, it's spelled M, I, C, H, E, L, E, B, L, O, O, O, d.com, forward slash unstoppable mindset. We've called that. We've made that link especially for Michael's podcast. Just for your people, they will get the audio version of one of my favorite books I've written called the magic of affirmation power audio book. They will get that for free, but in that audio book has tons of affirmations you can repeat after me, links to some of my music for free. You'll also get a six week mysticism course, and there are other things as well. I can't remember what they are right now, but they're all on that link.   Michael Hingson ** 56:37 But Michelle blood com slash unstoppable mindset. I thank you for the otter. Appreciate that. Well now if people want to come hear you, I know you do live events and you do zoom events and so on. How can we learn about that? How can people do that?   Michele Blood ** 56:57 Well, they can go to request Divine light.com to find out what is my next event, because I have free events, a lot a lot of free zoom events people can come to, and you'll just get to meet so many happy, lovely people from so many different countries. And we just have a blast together. And you'll be very, very uplifted after everyone, because everyone that comes on are just, we seem to be attracting, over the years, just people that are really, sincerely wanting a better life and to do it, to do good in the world. And I just love them all so much. So if they go to request Divine Light com, they can see where my next free event will be. I mean, it's on Zoom, but I mean when it will be   Michael Hingson ** 57:46 right? Request, divine light. Com, cool. Well, I really appreciate you coming on. And obviously people can go to Michelle blood, com, and there's a lot there, I would assume as well. So hopefully people will go, go check out everything that's there, and we'll take this seriously, because I think there is so much that you have offered. We've had a number of people on unstoppable mindset who talk about everything from reg a to Eastern medicine, meditation and and so many things. They all can't be totally wrong. So from my perspective, they are not wrong. But by the same token, it's fun to be able to get a chance to to have you on. We'll have to do this again, and I'm going to certainly go download the apps and put them on my nice little iPhone and start taking advantage of them. But I really appreciate you coming on and and being with us for an hour today. Well,   Michele Blood ** 58:51 Michael, thank you for the books that you've written and everything that you've done in the world. I just think you're just an inspiration and just a lovely, lovely man. So thank you. It's, it's lovely getting to know you. And I'm just going to tell everyone about these books, because they're amazing, well written as well. Just really, really good.   Michael Hingson ** 59:13 Well, thank you. So, when are you going to do a podcast? I'm going   Michele Blood ** 59:17 to do a podcast with a man called just I just had a brain fart. Thomas Miller, uh, at the moment, his podcast is called subconscious mind mastery, and he's interviewed me quite a few times. We met in person, and I love his outlook on life, about really not saying no to anything that's mystical. And so we're going to start one next year together. He's already got his own, but this will be a different one where we'll go a little deeper, a deeper dive into mysticism. I think we're going to call it well,   Michael Hingson ** 59:55 if he needs a guess for his existing podcast, if he has guests or. You guys have your podcast together. If you ever want a guest, I volunteer. So I'll just, Oh,   Michele Blood ** 1:00:05 I'll tell him today. Goodness, yes,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:10 I'm, I'm always, I'm always open for that. Oh,   Michele Blood ** 1:00:13 I'll tell him today. Yeah, because you, I love you.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:18 Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. I hope you enjoyed this at least half as much as I did, hopefully as much as I did. This has been a lot of fun and educational, I think, in so many ways, to help us deal with our outlooks on life. I'd love to hear your thoughts about it. Please feel free to email me. Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast website, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n. So Michael hingson.com/podcast, and wherever you're listening, please give us a five star review. We really value your reviews. But of course, love the five star ones, so if we can, we would really appreciate it if you give us a five star review and and say, say good things about us and and go off and definitely visit Michelle's pages. And, of course, being very prejudiced, go to Michelle blood com slash unstoppable mindset and get some free gifts from her. And if you know of anyone who you think would be a good guest, and Michelle you as well. I'm always looking for podcast guests, so okay, don't hesitate to to refer people to us. We appreciate that a whole lot. So once again, I want to thank you for being here. Michelle, this has been a lot of fun. Thank   Michele Blood ** 1:01:45 you. Michael, God bless you. More love everyone. More Love   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:54   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Dr. Khwaja Moinuddin grew up in India with what he calls a “normal childhood”. He attended high school and then received his bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering in his home town. With some convincing and soul searching he then came to the United States and attended Texas Tech university where he obtained his Master's degree and began working toward obtaining a PhD. Khwaja tells us about his time at Texas Tech including how, when funding grew hard to get, he overcame his fears and adversity and found a job that helped him stay in school. Even so, while working on his Doctorate degree he secured a job with 3M and, as he tells us, he learned a lot and even today he is grateful for the opportunities he had at this company. Eventually, however, under the advice of others he did finish his PhD, but not in Mechanical Engineering as such.   Khwaja began learning about organizations, how they worked, why often they didn't work well and he developed ways to help people at all levels of organizations learn how to stop being so resistive to change and thus develop more positive attitudes and constructive methods of accomplishing tasks.   We get to hear much wisdom from Khwaja on leadership, resistance to change and how to better accomplish tasks by being more open to new ideas. This episode is a MUST for everyone if you are at all open to learning some new ideas and growing to be better in whatever you do at work, in life and at play.       About the Guest:   Dr. Khwaja Moinuddin is a renowned leader in Continuous Improvement, Change Management, and Business Transformation, with over 22 years of hands-on experience driving measurable impact across diverse industries. His mission is clear: to help organizations embed a culture of excellence, resilience, and continuous learning - not as a temporary initiative, but as a way of working. Whether leading large-scale change programs, coaching executives, or transforming operational models, he has built a reputation for delivering tangible business results and lasting cultural shifts. With deep expertise in Continuous Improvement, Change Leadership, and Robotic Process Automation (RPA), Dr. Moinuddin partners with organizations to challenge the status quo, eliminate inefficiencies, and create high-performing teams. He has worked across multiple industries, functions, and global markets, collaborating with executive leaders, middle managers, and frontline employees to break down silos and drive sustainable transformation. His holistic approach ensures that strategy, execution, and people engagement work in tandem, because real change happens when employees at every level take ownership of improvement. A passionate thought leader and author, Dr. Moinuddin has distilled his years of experience into two books that serve as practical guides for transformation:   "I.N.S.P.I.R.E. - An Adaptive Change Excellence Model and Guide of the people, for the people, by the people" – A framework for leading people-centered, high-impact change initiatives. "Are You (Really) Listening?: Decoding the Secrets of Unheard Conversations" – A deep dive into the power of listening as a critical leadership and change management skill.   Dr. Moinuddin's philosophy is simple: transformation is not about tools, it's about people, mindset, and discipline. If your organization is struggling with change fatigue, leadership misalignment, or resistance to new ways of working, he can help you turn obstacles into opportunities and create a culture where excellence thrives. Let's connect and explore how we can drive real, measurable business impact, together!     Dr. Khwaja Moinuddin's journey is a testament to the power of perseverance, continuous learning, and an unstoppable mindset. Born and raised in a simple middle-class family in Pondicherry, India, a former French colony - he completed his schooling and earned a Bachelor's degree in Mechanical Engineering before moving to the U.S. to pursue his Master's in Industrial Engineering. At Texas Tech University, he excelled academically, achieving a 4.0/4.0 GPA in his major (Manufacturing) and an overall GPA of 3.83/4.0. While pursuing his degree, he also worked as an intern for Rhodia Inc., a chemicals manufacturing company, gaining valuable hands-on industry experience. Khwaja began his career as an Industrial Engineer with 3M, where he learned the foundations for his expertise in Continuous Improvement (CI) and Change Leadership. Over the years, he obtained multiple professional certifications, including Lean Six Sigma Master Black Belt, Certified Change Practitioner, Certified Prince2 Practitioner and Certified Scrum Master. His career took him across the globe, leading large-scale transformation initiatives in world-renowned organizations such as Ocean Spray Cranberries, Shell, Maersk, GARMCO, HSBC, and PDO (Petroleum Development Oman). Despite a demanding global career, Khwaja pursued his passion for learning, earning a Doctorate in Management Studies and a second Master's degree in Psychology while working full-time. His belief "To Learn is to Breathe" has shaped his leadership philosophy, helping organizations embrace change, embed a culture of excellence, and achieve breakthrough results. Beyond his professional accomplishments, Khwaja is a devoted husband and father. He fell in love with and married his wife, Sangeetha, while in the U.S., and together they have a 15-year-old son, Tanish. They now reside in Chennai, India. Dr. Khwaja travels frequently for his consulting work, and he continues to inspire businesses, leaders, and professionals to transform their organizations, and themselves - with an unstoppable mindset.   Ways to connect with Dr. Khwaja:   https://www.processexcellencenetwork.com/contributor/khwaja-moinuddin https://www.journeytowardsexcellence.com/ https://www.khwajamoinuddin.com/ https://www.journeytowardsexcellence.com/ https://www.khwajamoinuddin.com/     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello again, everyone. I am your host once again. Michael hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're with us, wherever you happen to be in the world, and wherever we happen to be talking in the world. And today we're actually talking to Dr Khwaja Moinuddin from India. So it's a long distance boy signals travel a lot faster today than they did when we used covered wagons or Coney pony expresses. So I'm really grateful for the fact that we get to use Zoom and computers and do things in such a meaningful way. So anyway, here we are. Kwaja has written two books, and I know he's going to tell us about those, so I'm not going to give a lot of that away. He has been a transformational leader. He also has a background in mechanical engineering, and that fascinates me, because it seems to me, it's interesting going from mechanical engineering to being a transformational subject matter expert and expert by any standard. So I'm going to be curious to hear about that. But anyway, meanwhile, Khwaja, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset, and thank you for being here.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 02:28 Thank you. Thank you, Michael, it's, it's indeed an honor to be on your podcast. And you know, as as we have been discussing, I'm no expert by any means. I have just gathered years and years of experience, 22 plus years of experience, and I'm still learning and continuous improvement, transformation. It's an ocean. So the more you know I learn, the more I feel like I don't know much. Yes, there is to learn, yes.   Michael Hingson ** 03:05 Well, I know exactly what you're saying. I think if we stop learning, then we have really let ourselves down and let the world down. We need to continue to learn. And I very much enjoy doing this podcast, because I get to learn so much from so many people. It's really a lot of fun. So I want to again, thank you for being here and looking forward to all that we get to talk about today. So let's get to it. I'd like to learn a little bit about maybe the early Khwaja Growing up and so on. Tell us a little bit about you growing up in India and so on.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 03:38 Yep, I'm from a very small town in Pondicherry called Pondicherry in in India, the closest big city is Chennai. It's about 160 kilometers south of Chennai. It used to be a former French colony. Now the place has been changed. I mean, the name has been changed from Pondicherry to Puducherry. But growing up, I'm the youngest of two kids. I have a brother. He's four years older than me, and my parents were typical middle class, lower middle class, both working parents. They worked really, really hard to put me and my brother through to school. They took care of us, they protected us. So I'm really grateful for my parents, my mom, my dad and my brother also could be quite me, you know, when I was young. So I'm really grateful to my family, because we were just the four of us in our family. Growing up, I went to a public school, initially, I went to a private school, and. Uh, but then my parents couldn't afford the fees, so we moved to public school, and I did all my schooling and my bachelor's in mechanical engineering in Pondicherry. So born and brought up in Pondicherry, which was a small fishing village, didn't know much about the real world until, you know, I graduated and stepped out of India for the very first time to go to the US to do my master's degree. My childhood was, was, was normal, you know, on a living on a on a coast. So I really enjoyed living near the beach. We didn't live very far away from the beach, just maybe, you know, maybe 100, 200 meters away from the beach. Growing up, I had a lot of friends, so we would be, would take our bicycles and and, you know, ride all over the town because it, you know, it wasn't as crazy as it is now with all the traffic and stuff, it was less congested. And the good thing about Pondicherry, an interesting fact is, because it was designed by the French, all the streets in Pondicherry are at right angles to each other. So you would never get lost if you are in Pondicherry, in the middle of the Pondicherry, because wherever you go, if you take a right turn and another right turn and another right turn, you will end up at the same place. So you will never get lost. That's an interesting fact in Pondicherry. How about Pondicherry?   Michael Hingson ** 06:39 So it certainly is a whole lot easier to travel around pontichery than it is to travel around Washington DC by any standard, I think. So yes, there's a lot of Angular streets and streets that go in different directions in Washington. So yeah, I think I'd like pot of cherry that's pretty good. So did you learn to fish?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 07:03 Not, not, yeah. I mean, I did learn how to fish, but more swimming. Used to go to the ocean almost every day. You know, I think I practically spent a lot of time on the beach with my friends and in the playgrounds. Our playgrounds used to be huge growing up, unlike now, they have become so small and condensed with all the, you know, development, the real estate that's growing in India, in Pondicherry and in India in general. But, but yeah, I did learn how to fish, you know, not using, like a fishing rod in the in the US, but using, you know, the the fishing, the the thread, you know, the nylon wire, fishing net, yeah, yeah. Not, not the net, but the wire, just was the single wire,   Michael Hingson ** 07:58 well, so you what, what got you into mechanical engineering?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 08:05 Well, you know, as, as all of my fellow Indians would say, in India, you are either an engineer or a doctor first. So, so I really had no choice. I had to become an engineer or a doctor. I didn't score enough to become a doctor, so I naturally became an engineer. But since I have to become an engineer, I was looking at, you know, all the different fields of engineering. What fascinated me was, you know, the field of mechanical engineering, because I heard from several of my friends and colleagues that mechanical engineering is an evergreen field, and typically, mechanical engineers can fit anywhere. And they were really, really they were, they were 100% correct. And I'm glad I chose mechanical engineering and I really liked my subject, because that what I am today would not be if I hadn't learned about mechanical engineering. Well.   Michael Hingson ** 09:07 So you, you got your bachelor's degree, but then you, as you said, you stepped out and you, you actually came to the United States and went to Texas Tech to do your advanced degree. What made you do that? That's moving a long way from home, yep.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 09:23 So some of my my my friends and my seniors, also, when I was doing my mechanical engineering, they were talking about something called as a GRE or a TOEFL. It sounded Greek, like Greek and Latin to me. I didn't know what it was. I had no intention of going to the US initially. My intention was to get a job and earn a lot of money and and I was almost done studying at that point of time, you know, learning subjects like thermodynamics and lot of advanced mechanics. Engineering stuff for four years really wears you out. But my my seniors and and my cousin also, and my uncles and a lot of my relatives, they said, you know, if you don't do your masters now, and if you go straight away to work, you may not have the inclination to learn more. So they really, they really prompted me or nudged me to do my Masters also, and and my mom, of course, she has been a great, great, great driving force behind me. She She encouraged me to always, always, always learn. She herself has, you know, so many degrees I cannot, I don't even know how many degrees she has. She has master's degrees and Bachelor's degrees in in, you know, all sorts of areas. And to this day, you know, she she keeps learning, and she has been a teacher for about 45 years now. So so my mom, along with my relatives and my friends. They said, You know, you need to study more so. So, you know, I had actually got a job, you know, in my fourth year. And I got a job through on campus interviews, you know, like a career fair in the in the US, similar to a career fair in the US. So I gave up that job and I wrote GRE and TOEFL. I worked hard. Got I did not get like flying colors, but I got, I got good grades in GRE and TOEFL, and then I applied to universities. Initially I was going to be an aerospace engineer, but then my friends also told me that maybe that's a difficult field to get a job in in future, because it requires, you know, us, security clearance and stuff. So you're you're better off doing something which is related to mechanical engineering, or even mechanical engineering. I didn't want to go too much into technical stuff, so I explored industrial engineering, and I found, you know, the courses and all that stuff were really to my liking and to my interest. So, so then I chose industrial engineering and Texas Tech specifically because of the industrial engineering program they had. So then and, and that's one, one thing led to another. And then I landed in Texas Tech University.   Michael Hingson ** 12:26 Well, that must have been fun. So you had lots of new experiences. You learned about football and all sorts of other things in addition to your academic studies. Yes,   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 12:36 yes. Red Raiders. Go Red Raiders. Yeah, right.   Michael Hingson ** 12:40 Well, and I, I went to UC Irvine. I don't know, I still don't know if we have a much of a football team today. We have a good basketball team, but go anteaters anyway. So it's, it is interesting how our lives change and how we end up, how God gives us different opportunities? And then, of course, the issue really is us taking those opportunities and moving forward with them. When you You certainly did. You stepped out and you moved to the United States, you went to Texas Tech, you got your bachelor's, and where did you get your PhD?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 13:19 So I got my master's from Texas Tech, and I was, I also started to do my PhD in industrial engineering in Texas Tech, but unfortunately, I didn't finish, because the the department ran out of funding, and I had to search for a job. So I started to, I got my job in 3m as an industrial engineer. But I also did an internship in another company called Rodia, which is a chemicals manufacturing company. But then, you know, while I was doing, while I was, you know, still pursuing my full time job, I really wanted to go back to Texas Tech and complete my PhD, because I had completed all my coursework, except for the which was the dissertation which was pending. And you know, at that time, one of the professors told me, quadra, try and complete your PhD, otherwise you will regret it. I still remember his words to this day. I should have, you know, looking back, I should have stayed back in Texas Tech and finished my PhD. I should have, you know, borrowed some more money and finished my PhD in industrial engineering in Texas Tech. But nevertheless, what I did is I did my doctorate, professional doctorate in management studies in Indian School of Business Management. So slightly different. But, you know, I didn't, I didn't actually want to go for an MBA. So I want I did the doctorate in management studies because I was more interested in organizational behavior, operations. Management in that field. So I got it in 2012   Michael Hingson ** 15:07 Wow. So you, you, you did complete it, even though, again, it went in a slightly different direction. But what was your interest that that took you into a little bit more of a business oriented environment, because you had clearly been in mechanical engineering and in that discipline for most of your studies.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 15:25 Yes, yes. So, you know, when I was doing my master's degree in Industrial Engineering, you know, and I got interested in continuous improvement, lean, Six Sigma, transformation, change management in that field, more as I was doing my masters in industrial engineering. And then when I got my first job in in 3m 3m is a great company, as you know, you know, I learned all the basics of my lean, Six Sigma change management, you know, hands on in 3m and I'm still grateful to this day that my very first job was in 3am actually, it's a funny story, because, you know, I got the job in 3m on the same day I was interviewed. So the I was very lucky. I think the the line manager really liked me, and he said, kwaja, I'm going to hire you on the spot. So I was, I was really, really, you know, ecstatic on that day, and I still remember that feeling to this day, yes. So what interested me to coming back to your question was when I was working in 3m they have a good mentorship program. So they asked me, you know, how do you want your career to be? You know, where do you see yourself in five years? In 10 years? In 15 years? How do you see yourself growing? And I said, I want to grow in the technical field. I want to become like a subject matter expert in Lean, Six Sigma, Black Belt, Master, Black Belt. And I want to grow in the technical field. And I remember the mentor, she told me, kwaja, while that's a good thought, but you will not grow much if you are purely technical, you will grow more if you combine your technical expertise with management, how to lead people, how to manage people, how to do change management with people so she actually, you know, planted the seed in me to do more of, you know, people management role. And for that, she prompted me to do more courses in people management, leading teams, how to work and collaborate with, you know, cross functional teams. And that interested me, and I started to search for courses that would give me that exposure. And then, you know, given the fact that also I took some courses in my master's, or when I was doing my PhD in industrial engineering, it prompted me more to move away from technical rather than getting a PhD in industrial engineering, to do adopt rate in management studies. And hence I, you know, slightly moved into the people management, operations management, into the softer stuff of managing people and getting stuff done through people, through others.   Michael Hingson ** 18:14 Well, nothing, nothing wrong with that. I know my background was in physics. But along the way, there came a time that I was confronted with an opportunity to take a job that wasn't directly related to physics, and I chose to do it. But out of that, I ended up being put in a situation once where I had to make a choice to either go find a new job or change from doing kind of human factors studies and other things related to a product going in instead into sales, and I chose to go into sales, but my reasoning was, It's difficult enough for blind people to get jobs. Finding a new job would be really a challenge, whereas an opportunity was being offered, and it was a good opportunity, so I accepted it. So again, I know that many times we do find that there is a an opportunity that comes along that maybe we don't expect, and if we take it, it's the right way to go.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 19:14 Yes indeed. And your story has been fascinating, Michael, to be honest with you, it has been, you know, it's very inspirational. Your story, me and my wife, we were sharing, you know, how you how you overcame adversity, that's really, really, really inspirational.   Michael Hingson ** 19:33 Well, thank you. And I, I appreciate that. And you know, to me, it's just how we live life, and we sometimes we're presented with challenges and and we have to deal with those challenges, which is, of course, our role, and if we don't, then we're the losers for doing it. Well, in your case, did you ever have a defining moment or a situation where, if, since we call this unstoppable mindset, where. Kind of a mindset really affected you and to help you through it.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 20:05 Yeah. I mean, many, many, many, many situations, there's never a dull day in continuous improvement, so it's full of challenges. Always, always. You know, in every organization I have worked for, there have been challenges in terms of, you know, how to deploy continuous improvement, how to take people with you in the journey of continuous improvement. But one of the things you know early on, when I was doing my my master's degree, is, you know, I think that that laid the foundation also for me to become more resilient and more adaptable. You know, when, when my department said they didn't have funding I wanted to, and this was, you know, when, when I was doing my master's degree, not, not, you know, when I went into my PhD, when I was doing my master's degree, after a semester, they said they didn't have enough funding. So a lot of my colleagues, you know, those who are in engineering, whether mechanical or industrial or or chemical or petroleum engineering, they would they were searching for jobs. I think it was the summer of 2001 and since it was summer, a lot of professors were on were on vacation, and I went door to door, knocking on every professor's, you know, Office, Office door. And almost everybody you know, kind of, you know, either shoot me away or said, you know, we don't have funding. Or, you know, their doors were closed because they were on vacation. So one of the, one of the things I did, you know, you know, I was very, very frustrated. I couldn't sleep. So I thought, What am I doing? What am I doing? What am I doing wrong here? Why am I not getting the funding. Why am I not getting a research assistantship? So as I was laying on my on my bed that that night, one evening, I thought to myself, and an idea came to me, why don't I go into Texas Tech University's Health Sciences Center, which is slightly far away. It's, you know, we have to walk, like, at least half an hour to get to the Texas Tech University's Health Sciences Center. And it's predominantly, you know, biology, Health Sciences Center. So nobody, none of my colleagues, had gone there to look for a job. So I thought, why not go there? Maybe I will find some luck. So initially, you know, I was told, No, you know, you don't have a biology background or, you know, we don't have jobs here. But on the third day, one professor, you know, as I was, I thought, you know, my day, on that day also is going to be a disappointment. Around five o'clock that evening, when I was about to go home and I noticed one professor's door was open. His name is branch Schneider, so if he's, if he's watching, you know, I'm grateful to him also for this brand Schneider. He is the professor in oncology department in Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center. So I approached him, his door was open, and I told him, I'm searching for a job. Any job? Would you be able to give me a job? He thought, he thought about it, and without hesitation, you know, he said, I do have a job, but you may not like it. And he said, You know, it's it involves washing dishes, bakers. Are you comfortable in doing it? I said, I thought about it, and I said, I can do it if it helps me to get in state tuition. And he also thought about it, and he said, Yeah, I think that should not be a problem. And once I agreed to do that, then he said, I don't want you to just do that. I want to use your engineering skills to help me with research. You know, doing some reports, research, reports and analysis using your engineering skills. Would you be able to do that? I said, That's my specialty. I would be glad to do that. So, you know, one thing led to another, and then, you know, he gave me the research assistantship, and you know, I was able to continue with my with my master's degree without, you know, burdening my parents. Because, you know, I had got a huge loan to go to the US, as you know, going to the US during those times is not, is not cheap. It's very expensive. So, you know, I think that's what, that's what laid the foundation. So I thought, you know, nothing is impossible. So if I can do that, I think I can convince people to do change management, at least my change management skills, and, you know, my Lean Six Sigma skills to do the continuous improvement in organizations. So I think that one moment, I think, was, you know, when, when I got that. I didn't realize that, you know, when I got back to my room and I told my friends that, you know, I had got this job, everybody's jaw dropped. They said, You have done something impossible. So they said, you know, we are now going to go to Health Sciences Center also. So I think a lot of our engineering guys went and knocked doors in Health Sciences Center, and they began to get jobs there. I   Michael Hingson ** 25:24 remember once, one of the first jobs my brother ever got. He was, I think, in high school. He had gotten to high school, and he went to apply at a restaurant for a job, just to earn some money. And the owner said, Well, you know, let me think about it. Would you go outside and we got some weeds out in the in the area around the restaurant, would you just pull the weeds? And my brother said, Sure, why not? I don't have anything else to do. So he went out on like, in a half hour, he had, excuse me, he had pulled all the weeds. The manager came out and was just absolutely amazed that he had had done all of that. And he said, Well, okay, and I thought about it, I'll give you a job. And of course, he was really being tested. Would he go out and do whatever he was asked to do? Which Which he did do? And when he came home and told my parents, and I was there at the time about that, they said, you understand that this guy was just testing you to see whether you would do whatever needed to be done to help the restaurant. And you passed, and he got the job. We never know where things are going to come from. And indeed, yes, we should be open and be willing to explore. It's always a good thing when we do that. I haven't thought about that in years, but you just reminded me of that story, and it's a great story, and for me, it was a lesson that you've got to do sometimes different things, and when, when you're really asking for someone's assistance, you also need to look at what they're asking you to do, and you need to do what they're asking   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 27:01 yes, unless it's to shoot No, I'm not going to go out and   Michael Hingson ** 27:07 shoot someone. But that's a different story. But well, that's great. Well, now, while you were in the United States, you also went off and got married, huh?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 27:18 Yes, I did.   Michael Hingson ** 27:21 Well, that was a that was a good thing. That's another good reason to have come to the US. Yes, now, is your wife from India or the US?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 27:33 Well, it's a, it's an interesting story. Once again, we she, she is. She's two years younger to me, and, you know, we met at a birthday party, and in, you know, at a professor's daughter's birthday party. And I initially thought I knew her from somewhere, so I was very, very shy to to approach her. But then some of her, some of her friends, or, I think some of my friends who knew her, they asked me if you know I would be okay to drop them to their house. So when I was, when I was driving, I looked at her through the, you know, the rear view mirror, yeah, and I, I liked her a lot, so, but I didn't know whether she was looking at me at that time or not. But then later, I told her that I was looking at you when I was driving. And then, you know, one thing led to another, and you know, we dated. She's from India, so she was also doing her master's degree. When, when, you know, at the time, you know, I was doing an internship in in a chemicals manufacturing company in Vernon, Texas, which is in the middle of nowhere. And I used to drive three hours from Vernon to Lubbock because I thought Lubbock was in the middle of nowhere. But then, when I was when I was working in Vernon, which is just no like a small town of 10,000 people, then when I used to drive back to Lubbock, it was like heaven, Paradise. I could see many people in Lubbock. So when I was driving back and forth. And I was in, I met her in this, in this party, and then we started to date. And then, you know, we got, we got married in the US in 2000 we were dating for a very long time. We lived together also for for a long time, we got to know each other. And then we got married in 2008   Michael Hingson ** 29:42 Ah, well, that's great. Congratulations. How long have you been married now? Thank you.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 29:48 Well. We have known each other now for 21 years since 2004 Yes, and we have been married since 2008 so 17 years. Wow. Congratulations. Thank you, thank you. And we have a son, 15 years old. And yeah, we, we are still, you know, happily married to each other, and she, you know, she has been a great support for me, not only in times of happiness, but but especially, you know, when I get frustrated, when when I'm not in such a good mood, or when I feel dejected, she has supported me tremendously, and she's still supporting me tremendously, but   Michael Hingson ** 30:30 I bet that goes both ways.   30:33 Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 30:35 you have to be more stable than you.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 30:41 Yes, well, I think she's more emotionally matured also. Then I don't want to tell her that, but she may know after this podcast   Michael Hingson ** 30:52 well. So you do a lot of work in working with people involved in resistance and change and continuous improvement, and you deal with people with resistance and change. How do you push back? And how do you push beyond that? How do you get people who are so resistive to change to to agreeing to change? You know, the reason I ask is that we all we all hear people talk all the time about how change is important. Changes is necessary, but none of us really want to change. How do you deal with that?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 31:26 Yes, so, you know, over the years, this is what, this is what I have learned also. And you know, I, I did my masters, my second masters in psychology, and that helped me a great deal. Also, I've always been, you know, fascinated with the psychology of human behavior. So I always wondered, you know, even when working in 3m or in my first company as an intern, I always wondered, you know, why? You know, even if a change is good, why are people resisting? And years and years passed by, I always, I always thought that, you know, we can, we can always convince people with rational, logical stuff, with data. But then I found out, you know, through through trial and error, I don't get convinced using logic. I have my own ways to resist. So when I learned about how I am resisting, I thought that's natural. Then how people, other people would resist. Because, you know my girlfriend at that time, who is my wife. Now, when she used to suggest something I would resist, that. She would say, quarter, you're not organized, you know, let's, let's get the house organized. And I would resist it because, you know, getting organized is a good thing, but then I had my own way of doing stuff. So, you know, to this day, I still resist, by the way, and she's still trying to convince me to get organized, but you know, I know why I resist. You know why I'm resisting. I know how I resist. So you know that, that you know early on, helped me, that, you know, people resist because we are trying to change them. It's not the change, but it's we are trying to change them into something that they don't want to so, for example, you know, one of the one of the line managers, or one of the leaders in a company that I worked for, he was completely against continuous improvement. He was telling me, I have been doing continuous improvement quadra, for 20 years, I don't need you to come and tell me how to do my job and how to improve it. And he was very open about it. I'm so glad he was. He was so open about it. Because, you know, I have also seen people who resist very covertly. They would say yes in front of you, and then, you know, go back and do their own stuff, or, you know, they won't do anything at all. So I wanted to understand him, why he felt that way. And, you know, I went on, you know, plant walks with him, and he was very proud when we were when we were walking around the plant, he showed me all the improvements that he did. So I told him, Bill, his name is Bill, what you're doing is continuous improvement. Bill, so I'm not trying to tell you to do your job. I'm here to tell you how to I'm here to help you how to do your job in a more structured way. And that's what CI is all about. So when I said that, immediately, he said, you know, guaja, I wish somebody you know, in your place, had told me that earlier, because people who had before you, who came before you, they were all about tools and templates. And I hate to use tools and templates. I'm more of a practical guy. So then that was a learning for me, also that, you know, that was an aha moment for me, that people, you know, certain people, have. Certain way of learning, and certain people have certain way of improving, but we all want to improve. So if we guide people in the right direction, and we talk their language, you know, we use their frame of reference, we use their language and and we see what are their pain points, and we try to help them overcome those pain points, then people would naturally, you know, you know, get the we would get the buy in for for the change, and people would not resist so much. So at the end, you know, what happened is Bill became a huge supporter of CI, not only a huge supporter of CI, he passed my green belt exam. Also, I coached him, and he passed my green belt exam. And he was, he was very happy. Initially, he was, he was, he was reluctant to even attend my course. But then, you know, after he went through the course, and then, you know, after we built the rapport. And then I, and then I told him, I'm not trying to replace you or, or I'm not trying to steal your job or, or I'm not telling trying to, you know, tell you how to do your job, because that's not what I'm here for. I'm here to help you. And continuous improvement is a more structured way of doing things, because you may be doing in trial and error, and by doing trial and error, you know, you may be making some costly mistakes, but when we apply it in a structured way, we can avoid 19 99% of errors, most of the time. So he really liked that approach. And he liked my approach of making things very, very practical, not speaking, you know, in heavy technical terms, not using the jargon and explaining it to him, you know, in his own language. That's what helped, you know, reduce the resistance. And over the years, what I have done is also, you know, adapt my way of how I'm approaching resistance. One of the courses which I took, and it was a certification course, also was, you know, instead of waiting for resistance to happen to you, we should approach resistance proactively. You know, when we announce a change, we should naturally expect resistance, and when we have resistance, it's a good thing. I have never, I never heard about it before, before I attended the course. I thought always resistance is bad. I thought resistance is something that we need to fight. We need to convince people, and those people who resist, they don't know what they're talking about. I used to see them as, you know, almost like enemies at workplace. This guy is against CI, why doesn't he or she gets CI, why are they, you know, resisting so much. Why are they criticizing me so much? I used to take it personally also. Later, I learned, you know, not to take things personally as well. So what I what I found, was that we should surface resistance proactively, whether you know it is in work life or in personal life, you know, when we are trying to do something out of the ordinary. When we are trying to improve something, we should expect resistance. And if there is no resistance, then that means either the resistance has gone underground, right, which has gone into COVID stage, or people have not understood the why. You know, what is this change? What is this? How is this going to affect me, people have not understood what you're talking about. So when we explain things, we should naturally expect resistance, and resistance helps in improving, you know, what is whatever we are trying to implement, you know, whether it is like a ERP implementation or, you know, Lean Six Sigma, or a transformation project, digital transformation, anything that we are trying to do, if people are resisting or if people are expressing concerns, it's a good thing. That's what I have learned over the years. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 38:50 at least, at least then they're open and they're talking to you about it, which is important. So how do you deal with the person who says, you know, like, like, Bill, I've been involved in continuous improvement, and maybe they really have, but you're talking about change, but in reality, what we have is working, and I'm not convinced that changing it is really going to make a difference. And you know, how do you deal with that?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 39:21 Yep, again, you know, over the years, I have so many stories this. This story, again, is some of the organizations I have worked in this. This particular person was, was saying the same thing. You know, it was one of the TETRA pack manufacturing lines, you have seen the TETRA pack, right? So the the TETRA pack where juice is packed, or milk is packed, or any beverage is packed, right? So these Tetra packs, when they were producing those Tetra packs of juice, they had. An issue of the juice packs being either overweight or underweight. So they had this continuous issue on the line, not just one line, but I think three or four of the lines, so consistently, it would be either overweight or underweight. And if you are consistent, if you are having the overweight or underweight, you would be audited, and you would get into all sorts of trouble. And moreover, you know, you're losing money if you if the pack is overweight and if the pack is underweight, somebody can, can, you know, file a claim. Customer complaints would increase. So this, this particular line manager, he said, you know he was, he was avoiding me. And I know that he would, he would avoid me so, but he, you know, at that point of time, he had no choice. So he said, kwaja, I have a few ideas, you know, I don't before, you know, you come and tell me, you know, continuous improvement, blah, blah, blah. I have a few ideas. I want to test them. And he gave me, he gave me, you know, the his thought process, and he wanted to try that before, you know, he before he agreed to listen to me. So I said, Bob, I'm all for it, please. Please, go ahead and let's see whether you know what you're trying to do. Works or not. So basically, in, you know, in our language, what we call it as as an experiment in continuous improvement terminology, we call it as an experiment. He was trying to do, you know, an experiment with one factor at a time, meaning that, you know, he would try to change one variable, and he would try to see whether that has any impact on, you know, the over overfilled packs or under filled packs. So he wanted to change one variable at a time, and there were three, four variables at that time, which he thought were, you know, suspects. So he wanted to change those variables and see what the impact would be. So I told him, Bob, yeah, let's, let's, let's try that. And I told him, you know, very politely, if that doesn't work, would you be willing to try what I am asking you to do? Because I have an idea. Also, he said, Yeah, let's, let's, let's do that. So I worked with him. I worked with him on the line, with his supervisors also. And he tried, you know, one factor at a time. He trained. He changed this, he changed that. It didn't work. So reluctantly. But then the good thing was, he was open minded also, reluctantly, he said, Okay, let's, let's sit in my office and let's talk. So I told him about a concept called Design of Experiments, DOE, in that, in that me using that you know, methodology, you can basically, you can basically have three, four factors which you can vary them simultaneously, and then see the impact on over packing and under packing. So when I explained to him, when I when I taught him about the concept him and his supervisors and the line operators, he said, Yeah, let's let's try. Let's see if this works. And at the end of the day, we were both trying to improve the process. We were both trying to get rid of this problem, sure, so we should be rolling. And then it worked within, within a few days, the problem got resolved. So what I learned from that is, sometimes, you know, you need to let people you know hit the wall before you offer them a solution. So that's something that I have learned. But of course, you know, in this case, it was not such a costly mistake. It was not, it was not like a disaster, but it was the controlled disaster. So, so what   Michael Hingson ** 43:28 was the actual change? What what change was made that fixed the problem? Or what was your idea that fixed the problem because he was changing variable at a time, but that was one example   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 43:39 at a time. Yep. So we had to do the root cause analysis. And through the root cause analysis, whatever variables that he was going after were not the root causes because he was not using a structured methodology. Okay, when we use the structured methodology, we went into root cause analysis. We did a structured like a fish bone diagram. I don't want to go into the technical details, but we did the in depth root cause analysis, and then we did something called as a design of experiment, where we chose three factors and we varied it simultaneous, so it is a controlled experiment which we did, and immediately, you know, it's not that you know you would do that, and you would get result. One month later, you would get results immediately, you would see the result immediately when you do that experiment versus what he did, it involved a certain bit of time. It would take one week for us to see a change. So when I showed him this and this versus this, he was really impressed. And from that day onwards, he became a huge supporter of CI, in fact, you know, the plant in which I was working in, you know, with the support of, you know, one of the plant managers, Tim, his name, I'm I'm still, you know, in touch with him, and you know we share thoughts with each other. I see him as a huge mentor. Also, you know, we got plant of the Year Award for a plant to talk. About to be shut down, back in 2009 so that's, that's, you know, how we were able to, you know, build the, get the buy in from all the line managers and, you know, get started on the continuous improvement journey. Because the the the management had told that if you don't improve within a few months, you would be shut down. So we all work together, and we did experiments like this, and we were able to turn around a plant, of course, you know, not just me, so I just played one small role in that we did as a team. It was a team effort,   Michael Hingson ** 45:34 and that's how you really overcome resistance to change when, when people see that you bring something to the table that works, then they're probably more apt to want to listen to you.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 45:49 Yep, indeed. We need to know what we're talking about. You know that that builds trust? Definitely.   Michael Hingson ** 45:54 Yeah. And then the issue is that you what you're talking about is is, in a sense, different than what they understand, and it's a matter of establishing credibility. Yes, which is, which is pretty cool. Well, so tell me about your books. You've written two books, and you've written I n, s, p, i R, E, and you've, you've written another book, tell us about those.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 46:25 Yes, so I, you know, I have always wanted to share my knowledge, and I have always been sharing my knowledge, you know, through training, through coaching, I have conducted so many training sessions, so many and I have learned also, you know, from from shop floor employees, frontline employees, from middle managers. I have learned so much from them. And also executives, top executives, you know, leaders from various industries. You know whether it is manufacturing or logistics or, you know, back offices, banking, you know, pure manufacturing or logistics container, container shipping business, or aluminum rolling business. So I wanted to write this book to share my knowledge, because when I see that change management or change is being implemented very poorly, that really frustrates me. So I wanted to share this, and I have seen, you know, numerous books being written on this. You know, numerous frameworks, also, you name it. You know, there are so many books out there. What I wanted to do is give a simple framework, which is, I, N, s, p, i, R, E, which is, you know, if you have to implement change you need to inspire employees. There are no two ways about it. If we can talk about logic, we can talk about change management, we can talk about what's in it. For me, everything, but in my experience, if anyone is, if any employee or if any individual is not inspired by the change, the change is not going to go anywhere. They may do out of compliance, but we will not really get their hearts in it. And that's why I, you know, came up with this framework called Inspire, which is I basically is inspired the need for change in employees. N is navigate the organization and build a coalition. And stands for that. S is to surface resistance proactively, meaning, as we discussed, don't wait for resistance to hit you. You know when you least expect it, and then, and then, you know the change goes nowhere. Surface resistance proactively. And P is plan, your implementation. You know, when I say plan, not just, you know, like a, like a 20 step bullet point, there are so many plans that need, that need to come together, like a communication plan, resistance management plan, a training plan. There are so many plans that need to work together. And again, depending on the complexity of the change, you know, I never advocate, you know, over complicating stuff. And then you have, I, which is implementation When, when, you know, this is where rubber meets the road, if we don't implement the change in a structured way, you know, leaders are not role modeling on the shop floor. Leaders are just, you know, we call it as EMR. And this is, again, from another framework called Aim. Aim, you know, basically what we what we mean here is you can express. Leaders can express about the change, role model the change and reinforce the change. EMR, so if leaders are just expressing the change, it will lead to one times the improvement, but if leaders are role modeling the change, it will lead to three. Times the change acceleration. And if leaders are reinforcing the change, it will lead to 10 times accelerating the change. So that's what I talk about, in terms of implementation, you know, experimentation and stuff, which is i, and then you have reinforce and sustain, which is r, and then E stands for evaluating and learning. You know, after we close a change initiative, after we signed off on a change initiative, have what have we learned from it? What have we learned from it, and what, what if we had a, if we had a chance to make a do over, what would we do differently? What have we learned from it? And what would we do differently, and if we were to do implement another change, what are the learnings that we can take from this change that we have implemented and apply the learnings in our next change? And also, you know when, when leadership transitions, many, many changes, what? What happens? And you know this is what I have experienced, and this frustrates me a lot as well. Is, you know, when leadership changes, the change gets, you know, messed up. I want to say fucked up, but you know, and I don't know if I'm allowed to say that. You know, every leader, every leader, wants to come in and you know, right or wrong? You know, I'm not blaming a leader wants to leave their mark in the organization, which is good, but what they what they inadvertently do, is undo the change which their predecessors have done. And then people get confused, you know, they say it as a flavor of the month. Or they say, Okay, let's wait until this leader moves on, so that, you know, we can, we can, you know, just wait until this change passes away and it leads to, you know, production of morale and lots of issues. So this is what I talk about in my book, as well, how to avoid these, these situations. So it's like a practical framework where you know which anybody can take and apply to any change of any complexity, and you know if, even if it is very, very simple change which is going to take maybe 10 days or five days only, they can quickly go through the Inspire framework and see, you know, what are the gaps and whether we have, whether we are implementing the change in a proper, structured way. And these are in this is just a framework, you know, and you know, we don't have to use all the tools that I have mentioned in the book. We can pick and choose the tools which are relevant for the change that we are trying to implement.   Michael Hingson ** 52:38 What is the the key to making change sustainable when maybe leadership changes or the company environment shifts,   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 52:48 yes. So, you know, as Dr Deming said, constancy of purpose, right? So, so if I'm a leader, Mike, and you know, if I'm changing my role, and if I'm going to, you know another function or another department, whether in the same organization or in a different organization, and let's say that you know, Mike, you are taking over my role. What is the constancy of purpose? You know? Are we? Does the organization, you know, it starts from our organization level. Does the organization have a constancy of purpose, and is it aligned with the vision and mission and whatever I have, whatever changes I have implemented, have I communicated them to you? Is there a smooth handover between me and you, so that you understand what are the changes I have done, what are the improvements I have done, and you know how you can take it forward and continuously improve upon it. So one thing is completely undoing and the other thing is continuously improving upon it. So that, you know, people see it as a natural, continuous improvement, rather than continue, rather than, you know, abruptly undoing something and then, and then, you know, starting from, you know, scratch, starting from scratch, and saying that, Oh, no, no, no, no, whatever this person did is total crap. And now we are going to change or revolutionize the whole organization where, which, you know, nine out of 10 times is, is, you know, you're just rehashing what this person has done into something new, into, you know, a different framework or a different bottle, however you want to frame it. So the there has to be a smooth hand over. So that's, that's, you know, point number one, and point number two is the the employees, the middle managers have the middle managers and the in the whole leadership team. They have an obligation. They have a accountability to make sure that, you know, they are aligned, to make sure that if one of their leadership team members is moving on, whenever a new leadership team member comes on board, to onboard them in a structured way, not to leave them, you know, hanging, not to, you know, not to let that person. Know, implement his or her own way completely. You know, let on board them and let them know what has happened in the organization. How they can, you know, continuously improve upon it. I'm not saying that, you know, revolutionary change is not required all. I'm saying that there are times when a revolution is required, but most of the times, continuous improvement is good enough. You know, when, when we, when we continuously improve. It keeps the continuity going. And people don't see it as you know, change after change after change. You know, we don't, we don't induce change fatigue in the organizations if we, if we do it as a continuum   Michael Hingson ** 55:40 makes sense, and it's all about and it's all about communication, yep,   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 55:44 indeed. And that's where, you know, that's why I have written my second book, which is, which is about active listening. You know, I'm a bad listener, I have to be honest. So I used to be a very, very bad listener. Now I'm just a bad listener. So I have continuously improved on my listening skills, and at least I know now that you know, I'm aware of my how I need to improve my listening skills. So over the years, I have done, I have I have learned the techniques of how to listen and when and when I say listen, it is not to many people, many of us, you know, even even now. Also sometimes I catch myself, you know, trying to listen to reply or listen to respond. So when I catch myself doing that, I consciously, you know, try to listen to the person. So again, in this book, I have shared, you know, the the techniques which would help anybody to become a better listener, which, you know, one is one of the requirements for being a great leader, how to listen to people and how to listen to people, truly, truly listen to people. So I talk about simple, simple techniques in the book. You know, for example, paraphrasing, remembering, listening without judgment, right? Or suspending judgment, as I say so. You know, I rank these techniques in increasing order of complexity, suspending judgment being the most difficult, you know when, when someone starts speaking, or, you know, even if, even when we see someone immediately, in the first five seconds, we judge that person. And, you know, right or wrong, we judge that we and in this book, also, I talk about, you know, why we are prone to judging people, and why we have such a such a difficult time in suspending judgment. So if we are aware that you know, let's say that you know when I'm talking to you, Mike, if I catch myself judging you right, so at least I know that I'm Judging You right. So at least I can I know that I'm judging you, and I should not do that. I should listen to you, and I should try to understand where you are coming from, instead of saying, instead of just thinking in my mind, oh, whatever Mike is saying is it doesn't make any sense. So maybe initially it may not make sense. But you know, when we open our ears, we have two years, and that's for a reason, and only one mouth. So we need to listen, and we need to completely understand where the other person is coming from, whether you know it is in personal life or in work life. You know, when we, if we don't listen to the teams whom we are managing, and if we just say, you know, do as I say, it's my way or the highway, people will do because you know you are their line manager. But it won't last long. No, the minute you, you know, change your team, or the minute you go out, people will, people will be, you know, good riddance. So, so that's what they'll be thinking. So how to listen to people, and also it will help the leader to grow. You know, over the years, when I listen to my wife, I have understood my own shortcomings, and if I had listened to her 20 years back, maybe I would have been a different person. Maybe, maybe I would have been a more mature person. So this is what, you know, I talk about in the in the book as well. How can we truly, truly listen? And some techniques like paraphrasing. You know, when, when our mind wanders, you know, it will be good to paraphrase the person to whom you're you're speaking so that you know you you remember, so remembering, paraphrasing, empathy, for example, you know, not just talking about KPI, KPI KPIs to the team members. Understand how they're doing. You know, are they having any personal issues? How is their family? You know, work is not, you know what, what? Work is a part of our life. But you know, we spend eight to 10 hours at at a workplace. So we need to know the team members whom we are managing, and we need to listen to them. If somebody is, you know, performing badly, right? It's very easy to give them a negative feedback. But. So if we listen to them, and if they feel heard, maybe they are going through something, or maybe they are not getting enough support. If we listen to them, and if we create that environment of active listening in the whole team, suspending judgment and listening actively, then we create a more stronger bond, and the team would would become like a world class team. This has been my experience. So this is what I have shared in my, in my in my second book,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:29 and certainly words to to remember. Well, we have been doing this an hour now, and I think it's probably time that we we end it for the day. But if people want to reach out to you. How can they do that?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 1:00:43 Well, I am there on on LinkedIn, and people can reach me through email, and I'll be more than happy to, you know, respond to anything they need. And I'm I know if people want to reach out to me to conduct any training sessions, my website is also their journey towards excellence. You know where I have my offerings. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:04 what is the website? What is the website called, again, journey towards excellence. Journey towards excellence.com, okay, and your email address, khwaja.moinuddin@gmail.com and spell that, if you would   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 1:01:21 Yes, please. K, H, W, A, j, A, dot, M, O, I n, u, d, d, I n@gmail.com,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:32 great. Well, I hope people will reach out. I think you've offered a lot of great insights and inspiration for people. I appreciate hearing all that you had to say, and I knew I was going to learn a lot today and have and I always tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as everyone else, I'm not doing my job right. So I really appreciate your time, and it's now getting late where you are, so we're going to let you go. But I want to thank you again for being here, and I do want to thank everyone who is listening and watching us today. We really appreciate it. If you would, I'd love it. If you'd give us a five star review. Wherever you're watching us and listening to us, if you'd like to talk to me or email me about the episode and give us your thoughts, feel free to do so. At Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, or go to our podcast page. Michael Hinkson, that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, love to hear from you if any of you have any thoughts as to someone else who might make a good podcast guest. And quad you as well. Would love it if you let us know we're always looking for more people to come on and be guests on the show. But again, kwaja, I want to thank you for being here. This has been wonderful.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 1:02:47 Thank you. Thank you so much, Mike, and it's been a real pleasure talking to you, and it's an honor to be part of your podcast. I wish I had met you earlier and learned I would have learned so much from you, I would definitely, definitely, definitely, you know, reach out to you to learn more. And you know, thank you for the opportunity. Thank you definitely for the opportunity.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:03:15   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to inter

The above title does not do Dan Swift justice. Dan also has his own podcast, successful Youtube channel and he has released seven music albums. Talk about being unstoppable! I met Dan when I appeared as a guest on his podcast, Time We Discuss and I knew he would contribute to a fascinating story here.   Dan grew up with an interest in music. For a time he thought he wanted to write music for video games. Along the way he left that idea behind and after graduating from college he began working at designing websites. He has made that into his fulltime career.   As he grew as a website designer and later as a supervisor for a school system coordinating and creating the school sites Dan took an interest in accessibility of the web. We talk quite a bit about that during our time together. His observations are fascinating and right on where web access for persons with disabilities is concerned.   We also talk about Dan's podcast including some stories of guests and what inspires Dan from his interviews. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I.       About the Guest:   Originally wanting to write music for video games or become an audio engineer, Dan Swift graduated from a small Liberal Arts college with a degree in Music Composition (Bachelor of Arts) and Music Recording Technology (Bachelor of Music).  Dan went on to release seven EP albums between 2003 and 2024. Most recently, "Parallels" dropped on Leap Day, 2024.  Dan has always had a passion for shaking up genres between Eps writing classical, electronic, and modern rock music.   While creating music has always been a passion, Dan took a more traditional professional path as a web developer. While on this path, Dan had a lot of experience with accessibility standards as it relates to the web and he values accessibility and equity for everyone both inside and outside the digital workspace. Having received his MBA during COVID, Dan went on to a leadership position where he continues to make a difference leading a team of tech-savvy web professionals.   In early 2024, I created a podcast and YouTube channel called "Time We Discuss" which focuses on career exploration and discovery. The channel and podcast are meant for anyone that is feeling lost professionally and unsure of what is out there for them. Dan feels that it is important for people to discover their professional passion, whatever it is that lights them up on the inside, and chase it. So many people are unfulfilled in their careers, yet it doesn't have to be this way.   When not working, Dan enjoys spending time with his wife and three kids. They are a very active family often going to various extracurricular events over the years including flag football, soccer, gymnastics, and school concerts.  Dan's wife is very active with several nonprofit organizations including those for the betterment of children and homelessness.  Dan enjoys playing the piano, listening to podcasts, and listening to music.  Dan is very naturally curious and is a slave to a train of never-ending thoughts.   Ways to connect with Dan:   Time We Discuss on YouTube Time We Discuss on Spotify Time We Discuss on Twitter/X Time We Discuss on Instagram Time We Discuss on BlueSky   Time We Discuss Website Dan Swift Music Website   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everybody. Welcome once again. Wherever you may be, to unstoppable mindset, I am your host, Mike hingson, sometimes I say Michael hingson, and people have said, Well, is it Mike or Michael? And the answer is, it doesn't really matter. It took a master's degree in physics and 10 years in sales for me to realize that if I said Mike Hingson on the phone, people kept calling me Mr. Kingston, and I couldn't figure out why, so I started saying Michael Hingson, and they got the hinckson part right, but it doesn't matter to me. So anyway, Mike hingson, or Michael hingson, glad you're with us, wherever you are, and our guest today is Dan Swift, who has his own pine podcast, and it was actually through that podcast that we met, and I told him, but I wouldn't do it with him and be on his podcast unless he would be on unstoppable mindset. And here he is. Dan is a person who writes music, he's an engineer. He does a lot of work with web design and so on, and we're going to get into all that. So Dan, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Dan Swift ** 02:25 Michael, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. I am. I'm super excited.   Michael Hingson ** 02:30 Well, looking forward to getting to spend more time with you. We did yours time to discuss, and now we get this one. So it's always kind of fun. So, and Dan is in Pennsylvania, so we're talking across the continent, which is fine. It's amazing what we can do with electronics these days, telling us not like the good old days of the covered wagon. What can I say? So, So Dan, why don't you tell us a little bit about kind of the early Dan, growing up and all that.   Dan Swift ** 02:57 Oh, geez. How far   Michael Hingson ** 02:58 back to go? Oh, as far as you want to go,   Dan Swift ** 03:02 Well, okay, so I am, I am the youngest of five. Grew up just outside of Philadelphia as being the youngest. You know, there are certain perks that go along with that. I get to experience things that my parents would have previous said no to the older siblings. And you know how it is with with, you know, if you have more than one kid, technically, you get a little more relaxed as you have more but then I also had the other benefit of, you know, hearing the expression, there are young ears in the room, I will tell you later. So I kind of got some of that too. But I grew up outside of Philadelphia, had a passion for music. Pretty early on. I was never good at any sports. Tried a number of things. And when I landed on music, I thought, you know, this is this is something that I can do. I seem to have a natural talent for it. And I started, I tried playing the piano when I was maybe eight or nine years old. That didn't pan out. Moved on to the trumpet when I was nine or 10. Eventually ended up picking up guitar, bass, guitar, double bass revisited piano later in life, but that's the musical side of things. Also, when I was young, you know, I had a passion for role playing games, Dungeons and Dragons, was really big when I was a teenager, so I was super excited for that. Yeah, that's, that's kind of those, those memories kind of forced me, or kind of shaped me into the person that I am today. I'm very light hearted, very easy going, and I just try to enjoy life.   Michael Hingson ** 04:30 I played some computer games when computers came along and I started fiddling with them, the games I usually played were text based games. I've never really played Dungeons and Dragons and some of those. And I I'm sure that there are accessible versions of of some of that, but I remember playing games like adventure. You remember? Have you heard of adventure? I have, yeah. So that was, that was fun. Info con made. Well, they had Zork, which was really the same as adventure, but they. At a whole bunch of games. And those are, those are fun. And I think all of those games, I know a lot of adults would probably say kids spend too much time on some of them, but some of these games, like the the text based games, I thought really were very good at expanding one's mind, and they made you think, which is really what was important to me? Yeah, I   Dan Swift ** 05:21 completely agree with that too. Because you'd be put in these situations where, you know true, you're trying to solve some kind of puzzle, and you're trying to think, Okay, well, that didn't work, or that didn't work, and you try all these different things, then you decide to leave and come back to and you realize later, like you didn't have something that you needed to progress forward, or something like that. But, but it really gets the brain going, trying to create with these, uh, come up with these creative solutions to progress the game forward. Yeah, which   Michael Hingson ** 05:43 and the creative people who made them in the first place? What did they? Yeah, they, I don't know where they, where they spent their whole time that they had nothing to do but to create these games. But hey, it worked. It sure. Did you know you do it well. So you went off to college. Where'd you go? Sure,   Dan Swift ** 06:02 I went to a small liberal arts college, Lebanon Valley College in Pennsylvania. It's near, it's near Hershey. It was, it was weird in that my the entire school was about half the size of my entire high school. So that was very, very weird. And then you talk to these other people. And it's like, my high school was, you know, very large by comparison. But for me, it was like, well, high school, that's what I knew. But yeah, it was I went to, I went to 11 Valley College near Hershey. I studied, I was a double major. I studied music composition and music recording,   Michael Hingson ** 06:35 okay, and, oh, I've got to go back and ask before we continue that. So what were some of the real perks you got as a kid that your your older siblings didn't get?   Dan Swift ** 06:45 Oh, geez, okay. I mean,   Michael Hingson ** 06:49 couldn't resist, yeah, probably, probably   Dan Swift ** 06:51 some of the more cliche things. I probably got to spend the night at a friend's house earlier than my oldest brother. For instance, I know my parents were a little more concerned about finances. So I know my oldest brother didn't get a chance to go away to college. He did community college instead. And then, kind of, my sister was a very similar thing. And then once we got, like, about halfway down, you know, me and my two other brothers, we all had the opportunity to go away to college. So I think that was, that was definitely one of the perks. If I was the oldest, I was the oldest, I probably wouldn't have had that opportunity with my family. Got   Michael Hingson ** 07:24 it well, so you went off and you got a matt a bachelor's in music, composition and music recording. So that brought you to what you were interested in, part, which was the engineering aspect of it. But that certainly gave you a pretty well rounded education. Why those two why composition and recording? Sure.   Dan Swift ** 07:43 So if we talk about the music first at that time, so this is like the the late 90s, early 2000s any kind of digital music that was out there really was, was MIDI based, and anyone that was around that time and paying attention, it was like these very like, like that music kind of sound to it. So there wasn't a whole lot going on with MIDI. I'm sorry, with music as far as how great it sounded, or I shouldn't say, how great it sounded, the the instruments that are triggered by MIDI, they didn't sound all that great. But around that time, there was this game that came out, Final Fantasy seven, and I remember hearing the music for that, and it was all, it was all electronic, and it was just blown away by how fantastic it sounded. And And around that time, I thought, you know, it'd be really cool to get into writing music for video games. And that was something I really kind of toyed with. So that was kind of in the back of my head. But also, at the time, I was in a band, like a rock band, and I thought, you know, I'm going to school. They have this opportunity to work as a music engineer, which is something I really wanted to do at the time. And I thought, free studio time. My band will be here. This will be awesome. And it wasn't until I got there that I discovered that they also had the music composition program. It was a I was only there maybe a week or two, and once I discovered that, I was like, Well, this is gonna be great, you know, I'll learn to write. Know, I'll learn to write music. I can write for video games. I'll get engineering to go with it. This is gonna be fantastic. Speaking   Michael Hingson ** 09:07 of electronic music, did you ever see a science fiction movie called The Forbidden Planet? I did not. Oh, it's music. It's, it's not really music in the sense of what what we call, but it's all electronic. You gotta, you gotta find it. I'm sure you can find it somewhere. It's called the Forbidden Planet. Walter pigeon is in it. But the music and the sounds fit the movie, although it's all electronic, and electronic sounding pretty interesting.   Dan Swift ** 09:37 Now, is that from, I know, like in the 50s, 60s, there was a lot of experiments. Okay, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 09:45 yeah, and, but again, it fit the movie, which was the important part. So it certainly wasn't music like John Williams today and and in the 80s and all that. But again, for the movie, it fit. Very well, which is kind of cool. Yeah,   Dan Swift ** 10:02 I'll definitely have to check that out. I remember when I was in school, we talked about like that, that avant garde kind of style of the the 50s, 60s. And there was a lot of weird stuff going on with electronics, electronic music. Um, so I'm very curious to see, uh, to check this out, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 10:14 You have to let me know what, what you find, what you think about it, when you get to chance to watch it, absolutely or actually, I I may have a copy. If I do, I'll put it in a dropbox folder and send you a link. Fantastic. So you graduated. Now, when did you graduate?   Dan Swift ** 10:32 Sure, so I graduated in 2003 okay,   Michael Hingson ** 10:35 so you graduated, and then what did you do? So,   Dan Swift ** 10:41 backing up about maybe 612, months prior to that, I decided I did not want to be a I didn't want to write music for video games. I also did not want to work in a recording studio. And the reason for this was for music. It was, I didn't it was, it was something I really, really enjoyed, and I didn't want to be put in a position where I had to produce music on demand. I didn't want to I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to lose my hobby, lose my passion in that way. So I decided that was out. And then also, when it came to working in a studio, if I wanted to be the engineer that I really wanted to be, I would have to be in a place where the music scene was really happening. So I'd have to be in like Philadelphia or Los Angeles or Nashville or deep in Philly or something like that. And I do not like the cities. I don't feel comfortable in the city. So I was like, that's not really for me either. I could work in like a suburb studio. But I was like, not, not for me. I don't, not for me. So when I graduated college, I ended up doing freelance web work. I had met through, through a mutual friend I was I was introduced to by a mutual friend, to a person that was looking for a new web designer, developer. They lost their person, and they were looking for someone to take over with that. And at the time, I did a little bit of experience doing that, from when I was in high school, kind of picked it up on the side, just kind of like as a hobby. But I was like, Ah, I'll give this a shot. So I started actually doing that freelance for a number of years after graduation. I also worked other jobs that was, like, kind of like nowhere, like dead end kind of jobs. I did customer service work for a little bit. I was a teacher with the American Cross for a little bit, a little bit of this and that, just trying to find my way. But at the same time, I was doing freelance stuff, and nothing related to music and nothing related to technology,   Michael Hingson ** 12:29 well, so you learned HTML coding and all that other stuff that goes along with all that. I gather, I   Dan Swift ** 12:35 sure did, I sure didn't. At the time, CSS was just kind of popular, yeah, so that. And then I learned, I learned JavaScript a little bit. And, you know, I had a very healthy attitude when it when it came to accepting new clients and projects, I always tried to learn something new. Anytime someone gave me a new a new request came in, it was like, Okay, well, I already know how to do this by doing it this way. But how can I make this better? And that was really the way that I really propelled myself forward in the in the digital, I should say, when it comes to development or design.   Michael Hingson ** 13:05 Okay, so you ended up really seriously going into website development and so on.   Dan Swift ** 13:15 I did. So I continued doing freelance. And then about five years after I graduated, I started working as an audio visual technician, and also was doing computer tech stuff as part of the role as well. And while I was there, I ended up developing some web applications for myself to use that I could use to interact with our like projectors and stuff like that. Because they were on, they were all in the network, so I could interact with them using my wait for it, iPod Touch, there you go. So that was, you know, I kind of like started to blend those two together. I was really interested in the web at the time, you know, because I was still doing the freelance, I really wanted to move forward and kind of find a full time position doing that. So I ended up pursuing that more and just trying to refine those skills. And it wasn't until about about five years later, I ended up working as a full time web developer, and then kind of moved forward from   Michael Hingson ** 14:09 there, iPod Touch, what memories? And there are probably bunches of people who don't even know what that is today. That   Dan Swift ** 14:16 is so true, and at the time that was cutting edge technology,   Michael Hingson ** 14:21 yeah, it was not accessible. So I didn't get to own one, because was later than that that Steve Jobs was finally kind of pushed with the threat of a lawsuit into making things accessible. And then they did make the iPhone, the iPod, the Mac and so on, and iTunes U and other things like that, accessible. And of course, what Steve Jobs did, what Apple did, which is what Microsoft eventually sort of has done as well, but he built accessibility into the operating system. So anybody who has an Apple device today. Troy actually has a device that can be made accessible by simply turning on the accessibility mode. Of course, if you're going to turn it on, you better learn how to use it, because the gestures are different. But it took a while, but, but that did happen. But by that time, I, you know, I had other things going on, and so I never did get an iPod and and wasn't able to make it work, but that's okay. But it's like the CD has gone away and the iPod has gone away, and so many things and DVDs have gone away.   Dan Swift ** 15:31 Yes, so true. So true. You know, just as soon as we start to get used to them   Michael Hingson ** 15:35 gone. I think there is, well, maybe it's close. There was a blockbuster open up in Oregon. But again, Blockbuster Video, another one, and I think somebody's trying to bring them back, but I do see that vinyl records are still being sold in various places by various people. Michael Buble just put out a new album, The Best of Buble, and it's available, among other things, in vinyl. So the old turntables, the old record players, and you can actually buy his album as a record and play it, which is kind of cool. Yeah, they've been   Dan Swift ** 16:07 very big with marketing, too. It's been kind of a marketing, I don't want to say gimmick, but in that realm, you kind of like, hey, you know, this is also available in vinyl, and you try to get the people that are like the audio files to really check it out. I never really took the vinyl personally, but I know plenty of people that have sworn by it. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 16:25 I've heard a number of people say that the audio actually is better on vinyl than typical MP three or other similar file formats. Yep,   Dan Swift ** 16:35 yep. I had a friend growing up, and actually, I shouldn't say growing up, so I was already, like, in college or post college, but a buddy of mine, Craig, he was all about vinyl, and he had, he had the nice, the amplifier, and the nice, I think even, like, a certain kind of needle that you would get for the record player. And you know, you'd have to sit in the sweet spot to really enjoy it, and and I respect that, but um, for me, it was like, I didn't, I didn't hear that much of a difference between a CD and vinyl. Um, not very. Didn't have the opportunity to AB test them. But now I will say comparing a CD to like an mp three file, for instance, even a high quality mp three file, I can tell the difference on that Sure. I would never, you know, I'd use the MP threes for convenience. But if I were to have it my way, man, I'd have the uncompressed audio, no doubt about it, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 17:27 wave forms, yep, yep, yeah. Obviously that's that's going to give you the real quality. Of course, it takes a lot more memory, but nevertheless, if you've got the space it, it really makes a lot of sense to do because mp three isn't going to be nearly as high a level quality.   Dan Swift ** 17:43 Absolutely, absolutely true. And that the way I rationalize it to myself. It's like, well, if I'm going to be though in the car or probably walking around and listening to music, I'm going to be getting all kinds of sounds from outside. Anyway, it kind of offsets the poor quality of the MP justify it.   Michael Hingson ** 17:56 That's true. Well, you know when and mp three is convenient if you want to put a bunch of stuff in a well on a memory card and be able to play it all, because if you have uncompressed audio, it does take a lot more space, and you can't put as much on a card, or you got to get a much bigger card. And now we're getting pretty good sized memory cards. But still, the reality is that that for most purposes, not all mp three will suffice.   Dan Swift ** 18:26 That is true. That is true. And I think too, you have a that the next battle is going to be mp three or a streaming,   Michael Hingson ** 18:33 yeah, yeah, that's going to be fun, isn't it? Yeah? Boy. What a world well. So one of the things I noticed in reading your bio and so on is that you got involved to a great degree in dealing with accessibility on the web. Tell me about that.   Dan Swift ** 18:55 Absolutely. Michael, so I've very strong opinions of accessibility. And this really comes back to, you know, I was, I was at my job, and I was only there as a full time developer. I wasn't there all that long, maybe a year, maybe two, and my supervisor came over to me and she said, you know, we want to start to make things more accessible. And this is like, this is like, 1012, years ago at this point, and I was like, okay, you know, and I did my little bit of research, and there wasn't a whole lot going on at the time. I don't think WCAG was a thing back then. It may have been. I can't remember if 508 was a thing at the in the Bible. It was okay, yeah. So I was doing my research, and, you know, you learn about the alt tags, and it's like, okay, well, we're doing that, okay. Then you learn about forms, and it's like, okay, well, they need to have labels, okay, but, but the turning point was this, Michael, we had a person on staff that was blind, and I was put in touch with this person, and I asked them to review like, different, different web applications. Applications we made, or forms or web pages. And the one day, I can't remember if he volunteered or if I asked, but essentially the request was, can this person come into our physical space and review stuff for us in person? And that experience was life changing for me, just watching him navigate our different web pages or web applications or forms, and seeing how he could go through it, see what was a problem, what was not a problem, was just an incredible experience. And I said this before, when given the opportunity to talk about this, I say to other developers and designers, if you ever have even the slightest opportunity to interact with someone, if they if, if you meet someone and they are using, let me, let me rephrase that, if you have the opportunity to watch someone that is blind using a navigate through the web, take, take that opportunity. Is just an amazing, amazing experience, and you draw so much from it. As a developer or designer, so very strong opinions about it, I'm all about inclusivity and making things equal for everyone on the web, and that was just my introductory experience about a dozen years ago.   Michael Hingson ** 21:07 And so what have you done with it all since? Sure, so   Dan Swift ** 21:11 with our website, we went from having about a million success criterion failures, and we've gotten it all the way down to, I think my last check, I think was maybe about 10,000 so it was huge, huge change. It's hard to get everything as because as content changes and newspaper, as new pages come online, it's hard to keep everything 100% accessible, but we know what to look for. You know, we're looking for the right contrast. We're looking for, you know, the all tags. We're looking for hierarchy with the headers. We're making sure our forms are accessible. We're making sure there aren't any keyboard traps, you know, things that most people, most web visitors, don't even think about, you know, or developers even thinking about, until you know, you need to think about them   Michael Hingson ** 22:00 well and other things as well, such as with other kinds of disabilities. If you're a person with epilepsy, for example, you don't want to go to a website and find blinking elements, or at least, you need to have a way to turn them off, yeah.   Dan Swift ** 22:13 Or or audio that starts automatically, or videos that start automatically, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 22:19 So many different things, or video that starts automatically, and there's music, but there's no audio, so you so a blind person doesn't even know what the video is, yes, which, which happens all too often. But the the reality is that with the Americans with Disabilities Act, it's it's been interesting, because some lawyers have tried to fight the courts and say, well, but the ADA came out long before the internet, so we didn't know anything about the internet, so it doesn't apply. And finally, the Department of Justice is taking some stands to say, yes, it does, because the internet is a place of business, but it's going to have to be codified, I think, to really bring it home. But some courts have sided with that argument and said, Well, yeah, the ADA is too old, so it doesn't, doesn't matter. And so we still see so many challenges with the whole idea of access. And people listening to this podcast know that, among other things I work with a company called accessibe. Are you familiar with them? I am, Yep, yeah, and, and so that's been an interesting challenge. But what makes access to be interesting is that, because it has an artificial intelligent widget that can monitor a website, and at the at the low end of of costs. It's like $490 a year. And it may not pick up everything that a body needs, but it will, will do a lot. And going back to what you said earlier, as websites change, as they evolve, because people are doing things on their website, which they should be doing, if you've got a static website, you never do anything with it. That's not going to do you very much good. But if it's changing constantly, the widget, at least, can look at it and make a lot of the changes to keep the website accessible. The other part of it is that it can tell you what it can't do, which is cool,   Dan Swift ** 24:16 yeah, that's a really good point. You know, there's a lot of tools that are out there. They do monitor the stuff for you, you know, like we on our on our site, we have something that runs every night and it gives us a report every day. But then there are things that it doesn't always check, or it might, it might get a false positive, because it sees that like, you know, this element has a particular color background and the text is a particular color as well. But there's, you know, maybe a gradient image that lies between them, or an image that lies between them. So it's actually okay, even though the tool says it's not, or something like that. So, yeah, those automated tools, but you gotta also look at it. You know, a human has to look at those as well.   Michael Hingson ** 24:52 Yeah, it's a challenge. But the thing that I think is important with, well, say, use accessibe. An example is that I think every web developer should use accessibe. And the reason I think that is not that accessibe will necessarily do a perfect job with with the access widget, but what it will do is give you something that is constantly monitored, and even if it only makes about 50% of the website more usable because there are complex graphics and other things that it can't do, the reality is, why work harder than you have to, and if accessibility can do a lot of the work for you without you having to do it, it doesn't mean that you need to charge less or you need to do things any different, other than the fact that you save a lot of time on doing part of it because the widget does it for you. Absolutely, absolutely.   Dan Swift ** 25:47 That's that's a really, really good point too, having that tool, that tool in your tool belt, you know, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 25:55 yeah. And it makes a lot of sense to do. And there are, there are people who complain about products like accessibe, saying artificial intelligence can't do it. It's too new. You gotta start somewhere. And the reality is that accessibe, in of itself, does a lot, and it really makes websites a lot better than they otherwise were. And some people say, Well, we've gone to websites and accessibe doesn't really seem to make a difference on the site. Maybe not. But even if your website is pretty good up front and you use accessibe, it's that time that you change something that you don't notice and suddenly accessibe fixes it. That makes it better. It's an interesting discussion all the way around, but to to deny the reality of what an AI oriented system can do is, is really just putting your head in the sand and not really being realistic about life as we go forward. I think that is   Dan Swift ** 26:52 so true. That is so true, and there's so many implications with AI and where it's going to go and what it will be able to do. You know, it's just in its infancy, and the amount of things that that the possibilities of what the future is going to be like, but they're just going to be very, very interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 27:05 I interviewed someone, well, I can't say interview, because it's conversation. Well, I had a conversation with someone earlier on, unstoppable mindset, and he said something very interesting. He's a coach, and specifically, he does a lot of work with AI, and he had one customer that he really encouraged to start using chat GPT. And what this customer did, he called his senior staff into a meeting one day, and he said, Okay, I want you to take the rest of the day and just work with chat, G, P, T, and create ideas that will enhance our business, and then let's get together tomorrow to discuss them. And he did that because he wanted people to realize the value already that exists using some of this technology. Well, these people came back with incredible ideas because they took the time to focus on them, and again, they interacted with chat, GPT. So it was a symbiotic, is probably the wrong word, but synergistic, kind of relationship, where they and the AI system worked together and created, apparently, what became really clever ideas that enhanced this customer's business. And the guy, when he first started working with this coach, was totally down on AI, but after that day of interaction with his staff, he recognized the value of it. And I think the really important key of AI is AI will not replace anyone. And that's what this gentleman said to me. He said, AI won't do it. People may replace other people, which really means they're not using AI properly, because if they were, when they find that they can use artificial intelligence to do the job that someone else is doing, you don't get rid of that person. You find something else for them to do. And the conversation that we had was about truck drivers who are involved in transporting freight from one place to another. If you get to the point where you have an autonomous vehicle, who can really do that, you still keep a driver behind the wheel, but that driver is now doing other things for the company, while the AI system does the driving, once it gets dependable enough to do that. So he said, there's no reason for AI to eliminate, and it won't. It's people that do it eliminate any job at all, which I think is a very clever and appropriate response. And I completely agree   Dan Swift ** 29:29 with that, you know, you think of other other technologies that are out there and how it disrupted, disrupted different industries. And the one example I like to use is the traffic light, you know. And I wonder, and I have no way of knowing this. I haven't researched this at all, but I wonder if there was any kind of pushback when they started putting in traffic lights. Because at that point in time, maybe you didn't have people directing traffic or something like that. Or maybe that was the event of the stop sign, it took it took away the jobs of people that were directing traffic or something like that. Maybe there was some kind of uproar over that. Maybe not, I don't know, but I like to think that things like that, you know. It disrupts the industry. But then people move on, and there are other other opportunities for them, and it progresses. It makes society progress forward.   Michael Hingson ** 30:06 And one would note that we still do use school crossing guards at a lot of schools.   Dan Swift ** 30:11 That is so true, that is true. Yeah, yeah. And especially, too, like talking about idea generation. I was talking to ginger. I forgot her last name, but she's the the president of pinstripe marketing, and she was saying that her team sometimes does the same thing that they they use chat GBT for idea generation. And I think, let's say Ashley, I think Ashley Mason, I think was her name, from Dasha social. The same thing they use, they use a chat GPT for idea generation, not not necessarily for creating the content, but for idea generation and the ideas it comes up with. It could be it can save you a lot of time. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 30:48 it can. And you know, I've heard over the last year plus how a lot of school teachers are very concerned that kids will just go off and get chat GPT to write their papers. And every time I started hearing that, I made the comment, why not let it do that? You're not thinking about it in the right way. If a kid goes off and just uses chat GPT to write their paper, they do that and they turn it into you. The question is, then, what are you as the teacher, going to do? And I submit that what the teachers ought to do is, when they assign a paper and the class all turns in their papers, then what you do is you take one period, and you give each student a minute to come up and defend without having the paper in front of them their paper. You'll find out very quickly who knows what. And it's, I think it's a potentially great teaching tool that   Dan Swift ** 31:48 is fascinating, that perspective is awesome. I love that.   Speaker 1 ** 31:52 Well, it makes sense. It   Dan Swift ** 31:55 certainly does. It certainly does. And that made me think of this too. You know, there's a lot of pushback from from artists about how that, you know, their their art was being used, or art is being used by AI to generate, you know, new art, essentially. And and musicians are saying the same thing that they're taking our stuff, it's getting fed into chat, GPT or whatever, and they're using it to train these different models. And I read this, this article. I don't even know where it was, but it's probably a couple months ago at this point. And the person made this comparison, and the person said, you know, it's really no different than a person learning how to paint in school by studying other people's art. You know, it's the same idea. It's just at a much, much much accelerated pace. And I thought, you know what that's that's kind of interesting. It's an interesting   Michael Hingson ** 32:45 perspective. It is. I do agree that we need to be concerned, that the human element is important. And there are a lot of things that people are are doing already to misuse some of this, this AI stuff, these AI tools, but we already have the dark web. We've had that for a while, too. I've never been to the dark web. I don't know how to get to it. That's fine. I don't need to go to the dark web. Besides that, I'll bet it's not accessible anyway. But the we've had the dark web, and people have accepted the fact that it's there, and there are people who monitor it and and all that. But the reality is, people are going to misuse things. They're going to be people who will misuse and, yeah, we have to be clever enough to try to ferret that out. But the fact of the matter is, AI offers so much already. One of the things that I heard, oh, gosh, I don't whether it was this year or late last year, was that, using artificial intelligence, Pfizer and other organizations actually created in only a couple of days? Or moderna, I guess, is the other one, the COVID vaccines that we have. If people had to do it alone, it would have taken them years that that we didn't have. And the reality is that using artificial intelligence, it was only a few days, and they had the beginnings of those solutions because they they created a really neat application and put the system to work. Why wouldn't we want to do that?   Dan Swift ** 34:23 I completely agree. I completely agree. And that's, again, that's how you move society forward. You know, it's similar to the idea of, you know, testing medicine on or testing medications on animals. For instance, you know, I love animals. You know, I love dogs, bunnies. I mean, the whole, the whole gamut, you know, love animals, but I understand the importance of, you know, well, do we test on them, or do we press on people, you know, you gotta, or do you not test? Or do just not you like you gotta. You gotta weigh out the pros and cons. And they're, they're definitely, definitely those with AI as well.   Michael Hingson ** 34:56 Well, I agree, and I. With animals and people. Now, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, we ought to be doing tests on politicians. You know, they're not people. Anyway. So I think when you decide to become a politician, you take a special pill that nobody seems to be able to prove, but they take dumb pills, so they're all there. But anyway, I'm with Mark Twain. Congress is at Grand Ole benevolent asylum for the helpless. So I'm an equal opportunity abuser, which is why we don't do politics on unstoppable mindset. We can have a lot of fun with it, I'm sure, but we sure could. It would be great talk about artificial intelligence. You got politicians. But the reality is that it's, it's really something that that brings so much opportunity, and I'm and it's going to continue to do that, and every day, as we see advances in what AI is doing, we will continue to see advances and what is open for us to be able to utilize it to accomplish, which is cool. I   Dan Swift ** 36:04 completely agree. Completely agree. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 36:06 so it'll be fun to see you know kind of how it goes. So are you, do you work for a company now that makes websites? Or what is your company that you work for? Do, sure.   Dan Swift ** 36:16 So I'm still in the education space, so I'm still, I'm like, in a state school managing a team of web professionals.   Michael Hingson ** 36:23 Okay, well, that's cool. So you keep the school sites and all the things that go along with it up at all that   Dan Swift ** 36:31 is correct. And we have lots of fun challenges when we start to integrate with third parties and got to make sure they're accessible too. And sometimes there's dialog that goes back and forth that people aren't happy with but, but it's my job to make sure, that's one of the things that we make sure happens, especially since I'm sure you've been following this. There's the Department of Justice ruling back in April, but I think it's anyone that's receiving state funding, they have to be. They have to follow the WCAG. Two point, I think, 2.1 double A compliance by April of 26 if you are a certain size, and my my institution, falls into that category. So we need to make sure that we were on the right path   Michael Hingson ** 37:06 well. And the reality is that has been around since 2010 but it took the the DOJ 12 years to finally come up with rules and regulations to implement section 508. Yep, but it's it's high time they did and they do need to do it for the rest of the internet, and that's coming, but people are just being slow. And for me personally, I think it's just amazing that it's taking so long. It's not like you have to redesign a box, that you have to go off and retool hardware. This is all code. Why should it be that difficult to do? But people throw roadblocks in your way, and so it becomes tough. Yeah, it's   Dan Swift ** 37:47 interesting, too. I remember reading this article, oh, gosh, this is probably, this is probably about a dozen years ago, and it said that, you know, the original web was 100% accessible, that it was just, you know, just text on a page pretty much. And you could do very, very simple layouts, you know, and then it got more convoluted. People would start doing tables for layouts, and tables within tables within tables, and so on and so forth. Like the original web it was, it was completely accessible. And now with, with all the the interactions we do with with client side scripting and everything like that, is just, it's a mess. If   Michael Hingson ** 38:19 you really want to hear an interesting thing, I like to look and I've done it for a long time, long before accessibe. I like to explore different sites and see how accessible they are. And one day I visited nsa.gov, the National Security Agency, which, of course, doesn't really exist. So I could tell you stories, but I went to nsa.gov, and I found that that was the most accessible website I had ever encountered. If you arrow down to a picture, for example, when you arrowed into it, suddenly you got on your screen reader a complete verbal description of what the picture was, and everything about that site was totally usable and totally accessible. I'd never seen a website that was so good contrast that with and it's changed. I want to be upfront about it, Martha Stewart Living. The first time I went to that website because I was selling products that Martha Stewart was interested. So I went to look at the website. It was totally inaccessible. The screen reader wouldn't talk at all. Now, I've been to Martha Stewart since, and it's and it's much more accessible, but, but I was just amazed@nsa.gov was so accessible. It was amazing, which I thought was really pretty cool. Of all places. You   Dan Swift ** 39:41 know, it's interesting. Before I started my my YouTube channel and podcast, I actually thought about creating a channel and or podcast about websites that are inaccessible, and I thought about calling companies out. And the more I thought about it, I was like, I don't know if I want to make that many people angry. I don't know if that's a   Michael Hingson ** 39:58 good idea. I'm. Would suggest going the other way, and maybe, you know, maybe we can work together on it. But I would rather feature websites that are accessible and tell the story of how they got there, how their people got there. I would think that would be, I hear what you're saying about making people angry. So I would think, rather than doing that, feature the places that are and why they are and and their stories, and that might help motivate more people to make their websites accessible. What do you think about that as an idea?   Dan Swift ** 40:28 I actually thought about that as well, and I was going backwards between that and and the other the negative side, because I thought, you know, bring that to light. Might actually force them to like by shedding light on it, might force them to make their site more accessible, whether what or not or not, no, but I definitely thought about those two sites.   Michael Hingson ** 40:45 Yeah, it's, it's, it's a challenge all the way around. Well, what was the very first thing you did, the first experience that you ever had dealing with accessibility that got you started down that road.   Dan Swift ** 40:58 I think it was like I said, when I work with that, that blind person, when I, when I first had that opportunity to see how he used the different web applications, we had the different web pages, and he was using a Mac. So he was using VoiceOver, he was using the, I think it's called the rotor menu, or roto something like that. Yeah, yep. So then after that happened, it was like, whoa. I need to get them back so I can, like, learn to use this as well and do my own testing. So the IT department had an old I asked them. I said, Hey guys, do you have any any old MacBooks that I can use? I was like, it can be old. I just need to test it. I need to, I need it to test for accessibility on the web. They hooked me up with an old machine, you know, it wasn't super old, you know, but it was. It worked for me. It gave me an opportunity to do my testing, and then I kind of became like the person in the department to do that. Everyone else, they didn't have the interest as much as I did. They recognized the importance of it, but they, they didn't have the same fire on the inside that I had, so I kind of took that on, and then like that. Now that I'm in the position of leadership, now it's more of a delegating that and making sure it still gets done. But I'm kind of like the resident expert in our in our area, so I'm still kind of the person that dives in a little bit by trying to make my team aware and do the things they need to do to make sure we're continuing, continuing to create accessible projects. You   Michael Hingson ** 42:20 mentioned earlier about the whole idea of third party products and so on and and dealing with them. What do you do? And how do you deal with a company? Let's say you you need to use somebody else's product and some of the things that the school system has to do, and you find they're not accessible. What do you do?   Dan Swift ** 42:42 So a lot of times, what will happen, I shouldn't say a lot of times. It's not uncommon for a department to make a purchase from a third party, and this is strictly, I'm talking in the web space. They might, they might make a purchase with a third party, and then they want us to integrate it. And this is a great example I had. It was actually in the spring the this, they had essentially a widget that would be on the on their particular set of pages, and there was a pop up that would appear. And don't get me started on pop ups, because I got very strong opinion about those. Me too, like I said, growing up, you know, late 90s, early 2000s very, very strong opinions about pop ups. So, but, but I encountered this, and it wasn't accessible. And I'm glad that in the position I'm in, I could say this unit, you need to talk to the company, and they need to fix this, or I'm taking it down. And I'm glad that I had the backing from, you know, from leadership, essentially, that I could do, I can make that claim and then do that, and the company ended up fixing it. So that was good. Another example was another department was getting ready to buy something. Actually, no, they had already purchased it, but they hadn't implemented it yet. The first example that was already implemented, that was I discovered that after the fact. So in the second example, they were getting ready to implement it, and they showed us another school that used it also a pop up. And I looked at it on the on the other school site, and I said, this isn't accessible. We cannot use this. No. And they said, Well, yes, it is. And I said, No, it isn't. And I explained to them, and I showed them how it was not accessible, and they ended up taking it back to their developers. Apparently there was a bug that they then fixed and they made it accessible, and then we could implement it. So it's nice that like that. I have the support from from leadership, that if there is something that is inaccessible, I have the power to kind of wheel my fist and take that down, take it off of our site. Do   Michael Hingson ** 44:31 you ever find that when some of this comes up within the school system, that departments push back, or have they caught on and recognize the value of accessibility, so they'll be supportive.   Dan Swift ** 44:45 I think the frustration with them becomes more of we bought this tool. We wish we had known this was an issue before we bought I think it's more of a like like that. We just wasted our time and money, possibly. But generally speaking, they do see the. Value of it, and they've recognized the importance of it. It's just more of a when others, there's more hoops everyone has to go through.   Michael Hingson ** 45:05 Yeah, and as you mentioned with pop ups, especially, it's a real challenge, because you could be on a website, and a lot of times A pop up will come up and it messes up the website for people with screen readers and so on. And part of the problem is we don't even always find the place to close or take down the pop up, which is really very frustrating   Dan Swift ** 45:30 Exactly, exactly the tab index could be off, or you could still be on the page somewhere, and it doesn't allow you to get into it and remove it, or, yeah, and extra bonus points if they also have an audio playing or a video playing inside of that.   Michael Hingson ** 45:44 Yeah, it really does make life a big challenge, which is very, very frustrating all the way around. Yeah, pop ups are definitely a big pain in the butt, and I know with accessibility, we're we're all very concerned about that, but still, pop ups do occur. And the neat thing about a product like accessibe, and one of the reasons I really support it, is it's scalable, and that is that as the people who develop the product at accessibe improve it, those improvements filter down to everybody using the widget, which is really cool, and that's important, because with individual websites where somebody has to code it in and keep monitoring it, as you pointed out, the problem is, if that's all you have, then you've got to keep paying people to to monitor everything, to make sure everything stays accessible and coded properly, whereas there are ways to be able to take advantage of something like accessibe, where what you're able to do is let it, monitor it, and as accessibe learns, and I've got some great examples where people contacted me because they had things like a shopping cart on a website that didn't work, but when accessibe fixed it, because it turns out there was something that needed to be addressed that got fixed for anybody using the product. Which is really cool.   Dan Swift ** 47:07 Yeah, that's really neat. I definitely appreciate things like that where, you know, you essentially fix something for one person, it's fixed for everyone, or a new feature gets added for someone, or, you know, a group of people, for instance, and then everyone is able to benefit from that. That's really, really awesome. I love that type of stuff.   Michael Hingson ** 47:22 Yeah, I think it's really so cool. How has all this business with accessibility and so on affected you in terms of your YouTube channel and podcasting and so on? How do you bring that into the process? That's that's   Dan Swift ** 47:37 really, really good question. I am very proud to say that I take the time to create transcripts of all my recordings, and then I go through them, and I check them for for accuracy, to make sure that things aren't correct, things are incorrect. Make sure things are correct, that they are not incorrect. So I'll make sure that those are there when the when the videos go live, those are available. Spotify creates them automatically for you. I don't know that you that I have the ability to modify them. I'm assuming I probably do, but honestly, I haven't checked into that. But so that's that's all accessible. When it comes to my web page, I make sure that all my images have the appropriate, you know, alt tags associated with them, that the the descriptions are there so people understand what the pictures are. I don't have a whole lot of pictures. Usually it's just the thumbnail for the videos, so just indicating what it is. And then I just try to be, you know, kind of, kind of text heavy. I try to make sure that my, you know, my links are not, you know, click here, learn more stuff like that. I make sure or they're not actual web addresses. I try to make sure that they're actual actionable. So when someone's using a screen reader and they go over a link, it actually is meaningful. And color contrast is another big one. I try to make sure my color contrast is meeting the appropriate level for WCAG, 2.1 double A which I can't remember what actual contrast is, but there's a contrast checker for it, which is really, really helpful   Michael Hingson ** 49:00 well. And the other, the other part about it is when somebody goes to your website again, of course, accessibility is different for different people, so when you're dealing with things like contrast or whatever, do people who come to the website have the ability to monitor or not monitor, but modify some of those settings so that they get maybe a higher contrast or change colors. Or do they have that ability?   Dan Swift ** 49:28 I They do not have that ability. I remember looking into a tool a while ago, and it was and actually, you know, at the school, we thought about developing a tool. It would be like a widget on the side that you could adjust on different things like that. You could do, you could remove images, you could remove animation, you could change color, contrast, that sort of thing. And it just be like a very predefined kind of kind of settings. But in my research, I found that a lot of times that causes other problems for people, and it kind of falls into the the arena of. Um, separate but equal. And there's a lot of issues with that right now in the accessibility space when it comes to the web. So for instance, there was a company, I forget what the company name was, but they had one of their things that they did was they would create text only versions of your pages. So you'd contract with them. They would they would scrape the content of your site. They would create a text version, text only version of your pages. So if people were using a screen reader, they could just follow that link and then browse the text only version. And there was litigation, and the company got sued, and the the person suing was successful, because it was essentially creating a separate argument.   Michael Hingson ** 50:34 And that's not necessarily separate, but equal is the problem, because if you only got the text, pictures are put on websites, graphs are put on websites. All of those other kinds of materials are put on websites for reasons. And so what really needs to happen is that those other things need to be made accessible, which is doable, and the whole web con excessive content. Accessibility Guidelines do offer the the information as to how to do that and what to do, but it is important that that other information be made available, because otherwise it really is separate, but not totally equal at   Dan Swift ** 51:11 all. That's absolutely true. Absolutely true. Yeah. So it   Michael Hingson ** 51:15 is a, it is something to, you know, to look at well, you've been doing a podcast and so on for a while. What are some challenges that someone might face that you advise people about if they're going to create their own podcast or a really productive YouTube channel,   Dan Swift ** 51:31 be real with yourself with the amount of time you have to dedicate to it, because what I found is that it takes a lot more time than I originally anticipated I thought going in, I thought, you know, so I typically try to record one or two people a week. When I first started out, I was only recording one person. And usually I would do, you know, record one day, edit the next day, you know, do the web page stuff. I would go with it, you know, I can knock it out in like an hour or two. But I wasn't anticipating the social media stuff that goes with it, the search engine optimization that goes with it, the research that goes with it, trying to so if I'm if I'm producing a video that's going to go on YouTube, what's hot at the moment? What are people actually searching for? What's going to grab people's attention? What kind of thumbnail do I have to create to grab someone's attention, where it's not clickbait, but it also represents what I'm actually talking to the person about, and still interesting. So it's a lot of a lot of that research, a lot of that sort of thing. It just eats up a lot a lot of time when it comes to like the transcripts, for instance, that was those super easy on their number of services out there that created automatically for you, and they just have to read through it and make sure it's okay. I know YouTube will do it as well. I found that YouTube isn't as good as some of the other services that are out there, but in a bind, you can at least rely on YouTube and then go and edit from that point. But yet, time is definitely a big one. I would say, if anyone is starting to do it, make sure you have some serious time to dedicate several, several hours a week, I would say, upwards, you know, probably a good, you know, four to 10 hours a week is what I would estimate in the moment. If you're looking to produce a 30 minute segment once or twice a week, I would estimate about that time.   Michael Hingson ** 53:11 Yeah, one of the things I've been hearing about videos is that that the trend is is clearly not to have long videos, but only 32nd videos, and put them vertical as opposed to horizontal. And anything over 30 seconds is is not good, which seems to me to really not challenge people to deal with having enough content to make something relevant, because you can't do everything in 30 seconds exactly,   Dan Swift ** 53:41 and what I found too. So this was very this was a little bit of a learning curve for me. So with, with the YouTube shorts that you have, they have to be a minute or less. I mean, now they're actually in the process of changing it to three minutes or less. I do not have that access yet, but it has Go ahead, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. But what I'm finding Michael is that the people that so I might create this a great example. So I was interviewing a comedian in New York City, Meredith Dietz, awesome, awesome episode. But I was talking to her about becoming a comedian, and I made about four different shorts for her from her video, and I was doing a new one each week to kind of promote it. And the videos, for me, they were getting a lot I was getting anywhere between maybe 315 100 views on the short for me, that was awesome. For other people, you know, that might be nothing, but for me, that was awesome. But what I found was that the people that watch the shorts aren't necessarily the same people that watch the long form videos. So I'm or, or I might get subscribers from people that watch the shorts, but then they're not actually watching the video. And in the end, that kind of hurts your channel, because it's showing, it's telling the YouTube I'm gonna use air quotes, YouTube algorithm that my subscribers aren't interested in my content, and it ends up hurting me more. So anyone that's trying to play that game. And be aware of that. You know, you can't get more subscribers through shorts, but if you're not converting them, it's going to hurt you.   Michael Hingson ** 55:05 I can accept three minutes, but 30 seconds just seems to be really strange. And I was asked once to produce a demonstration of accessibe on a website. They said you got to do it in 30 seconds, or no more than a minute, but preferably 30 seconds. Well, you can't do that if, in part, you're also trying to explain what a screen reader is and everything else. The reality is, there's got to be some tolerance. And I think that the potential is there to do that. But it isn't all about eyesight, which is, of course, the real issue from my perspective. Anyway.   Dan Swift ** 55:41 Yeah, I completely agree. I think what YouTube is trying to do, and I believe in getting this from Tiktok, I think Tiktok has three up to three minutes. Actually, there might be 10 minutes now that I think about it, but, but I think they're trying to follow the trend, and it's like, let's make videos slightly longer and see how that goes. So be very curious to see how that all pans out.   Michael Hingson ** 55:58 Well. And I think that makes sense. I think there's some value in that, but 30 seconds is not enough time to get real content, and if people dumb down to that point, then that's pretty scary. So I'm glad to hear that the trend seems to be going a little bit longer, which is, which is a good thing, which is pretty important to be able to do. Yeah, I completely   Dan Swift ** 56:21 agree. Because like that, the trend right now, it's, you know, people, they want stuff immediately, and if you don't catch them in 10 seconds, they're swiping onto something else, which is which is very challenging, at least, especially for me and what I do. Who's   Michael Hingson ** 56:32 the most inspiring guest that you've ever had on your podcast?   Dan Swift ** 56:37 Michael, this is a good one. This is a good one. So the video for Ashley Mason. She is a social media marketing she created a social medi

Nicholas Klingensmith says that he grew up a punk and not so nice kid. As he will describe, he was quite self centered, but it was all a façade. He will tell his story of finally realizing that he needed to change both his thinking and his concept of himself. Nick is a type one diabetic. He also is a 4-time cancer survivor and he has a number of herniated disks. He also is a recovering alcoholic. Nick finally realized he had to change after being thrown out of a Las Vegas hotel the night before he was to deliver sales speech. Nick was ejected because he was in, as he says, a “drunken haze”.   Today Nick is a successful author, a public speaker and a successful obstacle course racer and so much more. He also is a survivor of the October hurricane that struck near his home in Tampa Bay Florida.   We talk about all of this during this episode. Nicholas talks about resilience, controlling fear and even why he and his wife made the conscious decision not to evacuate their home as the hurricane approached. Nick offers many insights about how we all can learn to control fear and not only survive obstacles that are put in our way, but he will talk about how we can truly overcome them. As he will tell us, it is all about choice and making informed decisions.   This episode to me is especially poignant because so many of the things we discuss are illustrations of what is going on all around us. I think Nick's experiences and the stories he tells about them are the kinds of things to which we all can relate. I hope you like Nick's discussion and that you will let me know your thoughts.       About the Guest:   After being thrown out of a Las Vegas hotel in a drunken haze, jeopardizing his career and relationships, Nick Klingensmith had to make a change. A 4-time cancer survivor, type-1 diabetic, recovering alcoholic with herniated discs, nerve damage and sleep apnea, he defies it all when he finds Obstacle Course Racing. Refusing to accept his limitations, he's completed over 100 Spartan Races, 6 Major Marathons, several Ultras and scores of other obstacle and endurance events.   As someone who has walked the path of a sales professional, Nick is an expert in propelling other achievement-driven professionals and leaders to overcome fear and rejection and push past self-limiting doubts, by inspiring them to take purposeful action towards their goals. Nick is a raw and passionate storyteller who holds nothing back when revealing who he used to be and the person he is now.   A true testament to the power of resilience, with an unwavering belief in his purpose to overcome obstacles and inspire others to do the same, Nick delivers powerful and transformative speeches, drawing from personal experiences to illustrate the extraordinary potential of pushing through adversity. 1)    The power of perseverance: Pursuing personal growth and overcoming obstacles for success 2)    Pursuing Something Greater: Taking Risks, pushing boundaries and exploring your unlimited potential 3)    Living Inspired: Embracing Purpose, overcoming adversity, and finding belonging   Ways to connect with Nick:   Instagram: @stridemotivation https://www.instagram.com/stridemotivation/ TikTok: @stridemotivation https://www.tiktok.com/@stridemotivation?lang=en Twitter: @stridemotivatio https://twitter.com/stridemotivatio YouTube: @stridemotivation https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOiV2sNB3g4meufvBg3a9sA Threads: @stridemotivation LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nklingensmith/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100069207242260 www.stridemotivation.com Email: nick@stridemotivation.com   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset, where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet unexpected. Boy. It's been a crazy time in the world in general, and for our guest, Nick Klingensmith, it's really been kind of unexpected. Nick lives down in the Tampa St Pete area, and we as he knows, and I know, just went through a week ago hurricanes down there, which tells you about when we're recording this. He lost power for a while, but Nick is a pretty resilient guy, and he's going to going to talk about some of that. He's a keynote speaker. He's an author. Does a lot of different kinds of things. He is a coach, conducts master classes, and some things happen along the way that caused him to get to be where he is today. So we're not going to give any of that away. I want Nick and and while I'm Nick to talk about it and you to hear it, so we'll leave it at that. Nick, thanks for being here, and welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Nick Klingenmith ** 02:20 Michael, thank you so much for having me. I'm I'm really excited to be here today,   Michael Hingson ** 02:24 and I'm glad I was out in Southern California. Actually, that's not totally true last week or when the hurricane hit. I was in Kansas City and so but I one of the people who spoke when I was there was an economist who lived down in Florida, and I don't know exactly where she lived, but she went out as soon as her talk was over to get back to Florida, because she felt that her home was right in the middle of everything. So gosh, what do you do?   Nick Klingenmith ** 02:53 I'll tell you. Man, with the hurricanes, the most dangerous thing you can do is the reactive decisions before the hurricane. And part of what I'm talking about is being right where we are, right just north of St Petersburg, just north of where ground zero was supposed to be, right up until the like the late hour. You know, there's a lot of factors you have to consider when you like what want to evacuate or not. You know, we have a senior dog. We can't we can only drive so far with him. We have a reactive dog. There's only so many places we can take him, and if you didn't leave early, you risk running out of gas on the side of the highway. So there comes a point where, you know, we decided it our house was as secure as a home can be, even for a direct hit, we're just going to ride it out. We buttoned down. We were as safe as we could be. But, you know, with people telling you, like, run, run, run, right? Like, well, I have a friend who evacuated to Sarasota, where the direct hit actually ended up being, you know, I mean, where was I going to go to? To Orlando. It was directly in the path of the storm. Where was I gonna go? To the mountains? Because clearly, that's not so safe after all, the 72 hours leading up to a hurricane where just everybody panics and, you know, I think honestly, and this is what we'll unpack here, what I've learned from what not just not what I've been through, because what I've been through didn't teach me anything. It was what I had to what I had to do to put it all in perspective, and didn't understand it, but all those lessons in resilience give you the ability to pause and make better decisions in the face of adversity well,   Michael Hingson ** 04:32 and that is absolutely true. You know, should you have evacuated well? You know, as you said, there are a lot of ways to go. And the question is, where could you really go? You'd have to leave really early to make sure you could evacuate far enough away. But then, as you said, you have a dog that that can't travel this far, and that becomes an issue. Just, you know,   Nick Klingenmith ** 04:56 I'm not Florida. Man, all right, right. I am. Out three and a half miles from the shore. Yeah, I am just beyond, like, the line of demarcation, but if I was on the other side of the bridge, there's no way I would have stayed. Yeah, you   Michael Hingson ** 05:12 know, well, you know, you can only do what you can do and decide what you can decide. But the real issue, as you point out, is being able to pause and analyze it. And one of the things that I love to tell people is I love information. For me, when September 11 happened, there were a couple of times I asked people like an FBI agent, what's going on, and they wouldn't tell me. And I understand why, intellectually, they wouldn't because they didn't want to cause panic. As we were coming out of the stairwell, none of us knew what happened. The hundreds of people on the stairs didn't know. Of course, people always say, well, you're blind. You didn't know. Well, that has nothing to do with it. The plane hit on the other side of the building, 18 floors above us, and you know, the reality is, we don't see through concrete, steel and rebar. So the bottom line is, none of us knew, and when I asked, he said, Well, just no time to tell you, but I'll take you where you need to go, me and other people who are with us. I wish he had told me, it would have changed some decisions I made, but I also understand why he didn't. He didn't know me. He didn't know whether I panic or go crazy or whatever, and and so he did what he did. And actually, I shouldn't say that I would change what I did and the direction that we went I might have. But the bottom line is, it's all about being able to pause and analyze, and you have to have the information to do it. And you clearly were in a position to have as much information as you could have and make the decision that you made.   Nick Klingenmith ** 06:48 You know, when you hear seals describe like certain engagements and these split seconds that go by, and just the decision making process and the the way that, you know, time slows down for that. I mean, that's what they train for. That's why they train through adversity, and that's, that's how I look at more adversity now. And it's not that I welcome it. Don't get me wrong, you know? I mean, who really wants bad things or uncomfortable things? You don't want them. But I like to say this because somebody had asked me once that, if I wasn't a diabetic, would I be a better athlete? And I said, No, if I wasn't a diabetic, I wouldn't be an athlete at all. I wouldn't have become one so. Well, why is that I have these tools? I've accepted that life is always going to keep coming, so I just don't need to panic anymore. I know I have the tools and ability to slow down and make that decision making tree to get through it.   Michael Hingson ** 07:46 Yeah, okay, and that makes sense, but it is this, we, what if everything in the world anyway, too many people, what if everything, well, what if you weren't a diabetic, would you have done? You know, we, we, we always have to see those questions coming at us. And it's unfortunate that all too often we What if so much that we create a lot of fear that we don't need to create, yeah, which you know, makes sense. Tell us a little about if you would. I love to start out this way, the early Nick growing up and all that, and kind of what, what started you to where you're going and where you are,   Nick Klingenmith ** 08:26 man, I was a little shit. There you go.   Michael Hingson ** 08:29 That's Thanks for being on the podcast. Nick, we just summarized. No, no, go ahead. I   Nick Klingenmith ** 08:35 was such a punk, not a bad not like a I didn't like to get in trouble, but I, I was a little punk, you know, from the time I was a little kid. And I think I realize now, you know, part of, part of what I've uncovered in my history here is that my my father left me, left my mom, not me at a very young age. I grew up on an island, all right, it wasn't an after school special. He moved down the road, but the problem was that my mom wasn't she was still active with drugs, and she simply just wasn't capable of actually like caring for me. And so I grew up not necessarily looking for other people's validation so much as trying to prove that I didn't need it. So, I mean, I had a, I like, I was, I had a side hustle when I was in the second grade, like, I was hustling kids playing cards out of the playground, like, I just kind of like to buck the rules. I liked, I liked the bad guy in the movies. You know, it was, that's who I related to. But that, that sort of grittiness, actually turned into something after a while, because as I continue to look at myself as more independent and having to do it on my own, I also started working at a young age. I went to a boarding school for high school because I wanted a better education. Something else. I sought out myself, financial aid. I sought out myself. I went to college back. At the University of Massachusetts, and I also paid for that. Paid my own way through summer jobs and well, the last 20 years. So that was all working for me as something for a very long time, I was active in life. I like to play sports. I played competitive beach volleyball for 20 years. I I like to I liked to socialize. I often find myself in relationships, and there just came a point, though, where that sort of me against a world attitude changed. It was something that was giving me fuel and armor for a long time, right when I found out is that it was actually more like the rally cry of the victim mindset that I had been developing.   Michael Hingson ** 10:45 So what happened that brought that realization and that change?   Nick Klingenmith ** 10:51 I needed to start having real things happen to me, such as the four times I've been diagnosed with cancer. I'm a type one diabetic. I just celebrated 10 years of recovery from alcoholism. I have seven herniated discs from two different rollover fatality car accidents, nerve damage in several areas, sleep apnea. I almost died from meningitis. All those things had happened, and all those things had only contributed, though, to the victim mindset. It wasn't until I became an obstacle course racer, until, actually, after my boss walks in my office and challenges me to do a Spartan Race. And this was at a time where I was on top of the world. At that point, I was two years sober. I was a VP of sales. I was doing really well in my career. I was in a new relationship with an amazing woman that's now my wife. And I had just decisively beaten cancer for the fourth time, and I was I was kind of stuck, and so when he challenged me to do this obstacle course race with him. I knew I needed a change, and I didn't know what it was, so I said yes to this event. And it was through that process that I began to defy everything that I had previously believed about myself. I had created such limiting beliefs. I had created this narrative again, me against the world. I'm the victim poor me, right? I was convinced that I couldn't run because of my diabetes. I couldn't adventure because of my sleep apnea. I'd always be a piece of crap because of my addiction. When I went out there and I did my first obstacle course race. So I'm out there in the woods, crawling under barbed wire, carrying heavy objects, climbing up ropes, swinging from things, just like a little kid out there in the world with no fear and no doubt. And it wasn't me against the world, it was me in the world. And I felt just liberated. And I realized that everything I had convinced myself before of that had been a lie, and I didn't know yet what I had just, you know, told you about the victim mindset. It was just that point, I realized I was capable. I had this blank slate in front of me, and so for the next six, seven months, I got into this world of endurance sports and obstacle course racing. And I was improving through better nutrition, better exercise, yoga, meditation. I was improving through mind, body and spirit in all aspects of my life. And that's when I was in a second car accident, and that's where I got several more of my herniated discs, and that's where I got nerve damage. And the same day that happened, my cat of 12 years died, and 10 days after that, the lady who hit me died. And even though all I was doing was sitting at a red light when that happened, I felt responsible, and I was home couple weeks later, just heartbroken and devastated. You know, the last six, seven months have been like a dream to me. I felt like I was becoming this better person in all aspects, and now I felt like it was being all taken away from me, and you want to give up. And I'm sure I'm not the only person who's ever felt that way. I just didn't know what that meant. So I kept going to work. So I keep taking showers, I keep walking the dog, I keep meeting my responsibilities. And so I decided to put another race on the calendar, and when I was trying to train. I just I wasn't in it, and I was listening to this, like motivational compilation on YouTube, this guy's going back and forth about, are you a survivor? You are or victim? Are you a victim or survivor? And that's when I realized that even though I had already been progressing and I had just like found this new found lifestyle that I was still playing the victim. I was still saying, Woe is me, why me? Why me? And I? When I recognized it, that's when I realized that it's also a choice. You may not have chosen to be a victim, but you do choose to remain one, and I decided that that point that I will not be defined by my adversity, but rather. They're my triumph over it, and so it's been a decision. I have to only what. There's only one way I can tell that story, and it's a long version.   Michael Hingson ** 15:07 No, that's fine. You know, one of the things that that I realized during September 11, and it was partly because as tower two was falling and I was falling and I was running away from it, one of the things I said to myself was, God, I can't believe that you got us out of a building just to have it fall on us. And I'm a guy who has a lot of faith and so on, and I don't tend to panic. But I said that, and then immediately I heard in my head of voice as clearly as you hear me now, that said, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running with Roselle, who is my guide dog, and the rest will take care of itself. And I've adopted that mindset, which is really what you're saying. Focus on what you can control. There are things that happen to us that we didn't and wouldn't have any control over them happening. I've been well, I'm still yet to be convinced that we truly could have predicted September 11 as a country and stopped it. I don't think that we had the information, which says something about what a team dedicated to trying to create so much chaos and destruction was able to do because they functioned as a team. But the bottom line is that they did what they did. I don't think we could have stopped it, but what I do have control over is how I deal with what happened. I couldn't control what happened, but I can deal with what happened, and I think that's the important part of it, you know, I think   Nick Klingenmith ** 16:42 part of what you just it's not that you can do with it. I think the difference is you recognize it as yours to deal with. That's the first step. You know, too often we we refuse to recognize that we have an option, just because we don't like the options and dealing with it. We have to accept whatever happened happened. I have to accept that I'm a diabetic. I said this in a speech the other night. I said, like it's I'm not to blame that I'm I'm a diabetic, but when I take responsibility for being diabetic, I can be an ultra endurance athlete. Gotta accept our starting line, whatever, whatever that is. And, you know, there's a friend of mine, she's also a diabetic. She has a kind of a special something. I don't really understand diabetes thing, but, you know, she she, she struggles because she tries to control it, instead of just manage it, or instead of live with it. You know, they're basically kind of, now I'm going to mess this one up, but she doesn't focus on what she can control. She's so focused on what she can't. Mm, hmm. And that's what keeps   Michael Hingson ** 17:57 her stuck, yeah, and it happens so often, which is one of the things I talk about in my new book that we published in August of 2024 the book called Live like a guide dog, is that we What if everything to death. And the problem is well over 90% of what we what if about we don't have any control over. And that's the difference between us and dogs. Dogs don't do what ifs. And on September 11, when I was working with my fifth guy, dog, Roselle, nothing directly, really threatened her, and so as soon as we got home, she is ready to play. It was all over, and it's because she doesn't deal with it the way we have taught ourselves, or have been taught, to deal with things. And we What if everything so much that we create a lot more fear in our lives than we need to have, which is, which is so unfortunate, if we could learn to step back from that the   Nick Klingenmith ** 18:52 the speech I gave the other night told my story, as well as centered on a couple of themes that really would have resonated with that particular crowd, but one of them we talked a lot about, was fear was one that they kept kind of bouncing around after the fact. And I say that fear only exists in my imagination, and it's only power sources me, and it's that we suffer more from our own imaginations than we do reality. Sure, we create these things, but if we take just even a moment, and it's hard, even if you think, even if you think through logically, I don't think you can necessarily think through fear. And I'll, I'll speak to that in just a moment, but look back at all the times we were afraid. I found no monsters under the bed or in the closet. Like 90% of the things that I've been afraid of. Also, not only can I get out control, but they also haven't happened, right? Most of them will never manifest. You know, that said, the reason I think that you can't net even though you should be able to logically think through fear and understand that it probably doesn't exist, fear also hits on our emotions and stuff like that. So you. The I do believe that we can then move beyond fear, and therefore action is how we conquer fear.   Michael Hingson ** 20:07 Well, I think that, I guess I differ just a little bit. I think fear is a real thing in a sense, and partly it's a physical physiology, physiological reaction. I will never tell people not to be afraid, because I don't think that overall, we can do that. But what I tell people absolutely is you can learn to control fear and use it as a very powerful tool to help you. If you choose to do that, fear is is something that can cause you to focus, or if you don't learn to control it, it will overwhelm you, or, as I put it, blind you or paralyze you. But it is, it is there, and maybe the time will come when we can completely eliminate the concept. But mostly it's there, in part, because it's a physiological thing that we also encounter. But again, you mentioned the seals earlier, and they've learned to control fear. They're not going to tell you they're not afraid, but they're going to tell you that they can control it and use it to their advantage. Um,   Nick Klingenmith ** 21:12 we don't. We don't differ at all. By the way, the because I didn't fear itself isn't, isn't real. It's our fears are liars, those, most of the time, are the manifestations of the doubt. Fear, of course, is a real thing. Here's what I like to say, Okay, I'm with you, yeah, because I'm afraid of snakes and heights, yet I spend my weekends crawling around swamps and climbing up mountains. But it's not because I'm unafraid. It's I move beyond the fear. I do it anyway, and it I'm still afraid. I'm never going to handle a snake if I see one on the course, I'm going the other direction as fast as I can. It's just that I've, I have to find a way to not let it prevent me from living my life. And so I look for those things to you know, whatever I step into fear, I create. I make my world broader. But I don't know if you ever read the book, fear is fueled by Patrick Sweeney, great book, but he really talks a lot about the difference between fear and courage. Because or being fearless, you'd have to be a sociopath. Yeah, you'd have to have a complete disconnection from reality. And plus, like you said, Fear is very healthy. It is a good idea to fear the hot flame over the stove. It's a good idea to fear the Mack truck going down the highway if I want to go run into the street. Also, fear can be an indicator. You know, I when I was afraid for my job, I knew it's because I wasn't doing it. If I'm afraid for my home, it's because I'm not financially prepared. You know, if fear tells me what's important to me as well. So it's not always a bad thing, like, like we've been saying, though it's what you do with it or what you do about it. So   Michael Hingson ** 22:51 you wouldn't even want to pick up a garden snake or a king snake or anything. Oh, no way, huh?   Nick Klingenmith ** 22:57 I don't care if it had, like, tickets for Vegas and a cure for cancer in its mouth. Put that demon thing, that demon cord away.   Michael Hingson ** 23:07 Well, I have, I have played with some snakes, but I also recognize that they're, they're not like me, and you have to be cautious even among the most non poisonous snakes, and that is something that we have to deal with. But I guess I don't fear them. I'm probably more cautious around a black widow spider than a snake than my wife. There you go. Well. But the other part about snakes is, of course, not knowing necessarily, if I encounter snakes, what they are, I'm going to probably avoid them until I know a whole lot more from somebody else about them. And if I hear rattlers, I'm going to definitely deal with that accordingly and freeze or whatever. So   Nick Klingenmith ** 23:55 that's why my fears are rational, because you would be naturally afraid of the potential consequences of the snake, which is what we should be afraid of, right? If we're getting afraid of something, right? I'm afraid of the snake. I'm afraid it's of its sheer existence. My   Michael Hingson ** 24:10 My brother in law, when he was a kid, my wife used to tell this story, and her parents told the story, and they all passed now, but he came in one day, or came from somewhere, and he was holding a Black Widow and going, Yeah, that's really strange, but eventually he let it go, but he was just holding on to it and showing it to everybody. Fine. I don't think he would do that today, though. Yeah,   Nick Klingenmith ** 24:41 Mo, I feel like again, maybe logic and thinking prevents us from doing really silly things like that from time to time. Yeah, there   Michael Hingson ** 24:48 is that. On the other hand, I've never been a skier, and I'm not afraid of skiing, but I love to tease people and say I'm not going to go skiing, because I know what happened to Sonny Bono and I know. Those trees are out there waiting for me. And no matter where I am in relation to the trees, they're going to come out and get me. And in reality, I know intellectually that if somebody said, Come on, really ski. If I were up in an area where there was a ski resort and we had snow and all that sort of stuff, and there was a reasonably gentle ski slope, I would try it, but it's fun to tease people and say, heck no, I'm not going to go out there and let those trees get   Nick Klingenmith ** 25:28 me. I think what you just said is kind of important, because I look at it like hot sauce, all right. I when I was younger, I could eat the hot or the hot. Nowadays, not so much, but I still enjoy hot sauce, but if it gets too hot, I can't enjoy it at all. It will ruin the entire meal. I can't even eat it. And that's sort of where the fear comes in, or doing things that we're fearful of, because if you just throw me right into it, that's not going to be exhilarating, and that's not going to be something I'm going to come back from and want to come back from and want to do again and say, I conquered that. That's not going to expand my universe. That's going to send me crawling under the bed. So, yeah, if you don't like the ski, if you're afraid of the trees, the bunny slope is where you need to be. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 26:14 having having never skied, I would want to start out there anyway, but, um, but I know intellectually, I'm not really afraid of it. I've just never really been around skiing. Now, my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life, so we really never were up visiting her, her brother, my brother in law, or in any other area, when we were really around in a skiing environment, which is what it's really about i i would never avoid skiing, but it's just not the thing that is the most exciting thing for me to do. I've ice skated in my life, and I was out on an ice skating rink for a few hours, and at the very end, I fell and sprained my ankle. And I haven't really been ice skating since, but I am, but I I'm not afraid to go do it. It's just again. It's not something that that I've done, but I, I think life is an adventure, and I love to explore things. And you mentioned hot sauce, there used to be a show on Food Network with Bobby Flay, and I'm forgetting the other guy, who was, oh, I'm blanking out on his name, but it was called grilling and chilling. And he was from, he owned a restaurant down in in Philadelphia called Jack's Firehouse. And we ended up having to go there. Well, we'd end up going there. Didn't have to go there, but Karen, my wife, and I, went there. They have something there, which is made of the hottest peppers and so on that. You can imagine. It's called hot lava, and they bring you a bowl of it, and I touched my finger to it, and then just tasted my finger, and I went, I'm not going to eat that stuff. That's just too hot for me. But again, I can say safely that if I had to, because I didn't have any choice, I wouldn't be so afraid that I wouldn't do something like eat it if it had to be on something to make it edible or whatever. But I do think you're right. I think that fear is really all about what we do and how how we learn to control it, and that's the important part about it. And all too often, we just don't learn to do that. And so as you point out, well over 90% of the things that we fear never will come to pass, never have come to pass, and we're just the ones who are creating the environment that makes it so much scarier for us.   Nick Klingenmith ** 28:36 Plus, are we really afraid of the thing, or are we afraid of the consequences of the thing, yeah? You know, when you really take it all the way back down to the thing you're most afraid of, you may realize what you're most afraid of is a nuisance and not a catastrophe, right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:55 Yeah? And, and for me, um, I'll, I'll face consequences, and what I the only thing I want to as much as possible know is what the consequences are, and then I'll make a, what you would call a rational decision as to whether I want to do it. But I can take the basic fear out of the situation and turn it into making it somewhat analytical. And the result of that is that it becomes what we're talking about here, which is a choice, you   Nick Klingenmith ** 29:29 know, I'll take it back down in the beginning, because I'm sorry, did I cut you off just now? No, no, okay, you know the decisions that went into the storm, right? So we, I gave you the reasons as to why we were there, but why we decided to stay. But then there were other things to consider. Um, I mean, the house is, like, rated for whatever the wind the windows go 140 like it's a new roof, blah, blah, blah, like it's, it's about as safe as it can get, all right, we we weren't going to die. We weren't going to get flooded. We sandbagged. Everything we did, all this, whatever. So then the decision had to be like, if it is bad, we have to understand, if there's like, catastrophic damage to the area and something goes wrong, they're not going to be able to get to us. So we might be without days. You know, we know. We knew we would lose power. We might be without food, water and access to other human beings and communications for up to, like, a week. So we prepared for that. That said, right, we were as logically prepared as possible. When you're sitting in the middle of a cat four hurricane, I'm not going to tell you I wasn't scared. I mean, like you could look out the window and even the middle of, I mean, it was, it was late when it hit, I mean, trees that don't move were swaying hard back and forth, and you weren't totally unsure that one of them wasn't going to end up in your living room. So those were completely natural fears, even though I was as secure as it could logically be. It's a cat four hurricane, and it can do what it wants.   Michael Hingson ** 31:00 Did did you though, while that was happening and you were seeing all that, did the thought also flash in your mind? Yeah, but I did make the choice to stay here so I can deal with it, or I will deal with as best I can. I   Nick Klingenmith ** 31:13 was already prepared for, you know, in my mind I had, I mean, by the door, we had two doors that were accessible because we barricaded everything else up. And by each of them were, you know, shoes, towels, wet gear, things of case I needed to, case a tree came through and crushed and I had to do something I don't know, whatever, like, you know, the the car was in a position. If we had to bug out, we could bug out. If it, you know, we kept the lifted vehicle here, move the other one down the road. Preparations were about as made. But this is where obstacle course racing literally taught me the process to this. Because I love running Ultras, 50 Ks, you know, 70 obstacles up mountains, 10 to 12 hour days of just misery, because everything will go wrong. Everything will go wrong. Whatever your race plan is, things are going to go wrong. And so I've literally just been practicing tackling one unexpected obstacle at a time, and that's all it is. It's a mental process of right? You prepare for what you can and when things happen, you have to just pause and say, what is the obstacle? What is the challenge I'm facing? What is the outcome I need, and what needs to be done to achieve it? Go   Michael Hingson ** 32:29 deal with that obstacle, and then go to the next one. That's   Nick Klingenmith ** 32:33 That's it. I mean, if, if Windows got punctured out, and then we do this, if something else happened, then you begin to prioritize, protect the dogs. My wife is fully capable of taking care of herself and also doing things to protect the home. So we had our assignments, but instead, you know, because of that, she fell asleep in the middle of the worst of it, which is a good thing. The dogs were comfortable. Nothing bad happened. And I mean, we lost power. But whatever that happens.   Michael Hingson ** 33:01 I was in a sports car rally once, and I was the navigator, so the the course, the instructions were in braille, and I started to read it, and then, and I was reading to the driver, so that the driver followed directions, and I started to get a little bit ahead, and the driver said, no, no, no, don't do that. All I want to know is, what's our next job? And that struck a chord with me, because I I realized, Oh, he wants to focus on just the one thing which makes perfect sense. And that's been a and I was like, 13 at the time. That was a life lesson, though, that I that I really took to heart. Again. You can think about all sorts of things. You do need to make preparations, but when you're in the middle of something, ultimately, you've got to deal with it one step at a time. It's   Nick Klingenmith ** 33:57 It's like chess. You want to consider all your moves, but you only make one move at a time, and I'll tell you, this is something that is so idiot proof I hate that it's taken me 45 years to really get the hang of it, but there's been no better teacher for me in that than sobriety, because I truly learned one day at a time, living and as an entrepreneur and A new speaker and a new coach. This past 18 months, it's sometimes been hour at a time living because life continues to happen, but the way that I will solve most of my problems is with the new action. And so I and you can't just ignore things all the time, but I can say for one hour, I'm focused on this right now. And I literally will say out loud often, no, I'm doing this right now. I'm doing this right now. Even on my run, sometimes I'm like, nope, hey, I'm here right now.   Michael Hingson ** 34:51 Do you do things like, when you're running, listen to podcasts or anything like that, or do you just focus on the running? Neither I listen to music and day. Mean, okay, well, so you you do other things while you're running. Okay, why? I shouldn't have just said podcast. But rather, I pay   Nick Klingenmith ** 35:07 attention to because I run by heart rate. So it'll be like 10 minutes at this zone, 10 minutes at this zone, back and forth. So I have to pay attention. But I set my watch to heart rate. I don't even look at the pace and and so I have to monitor that loosely every, you know, just a little bit at my watch. Also, I will have to look at my diabetes, my blood sugar, every 10 minutes, 15 minutes or so. But beyond that, glucose monitor, yeah, I have it on my phone, yeah. So I'll do that. And then, other than that, I listen to music, and my playlist is very eclectic, but I, I will daydream of things, you know, this is where I set and just daydream of really big goals, or race goals or life goals, and just just fantasize like just, let's say it drift away into that. But running   Michael Hingson ** 35:59 gives you the opportunity to do that, which is what's so cool. I There are things that that I do that I call them sort of brainless activities, but I do them with the idea that while they're going on, I can be thinking about other things. I don't have to focus my full attention on them. And the result of that is that I do accomplish other things, or I set goals, or, as you say, daydreaming things happen because of that.   Nick Klingenmith ** 36:28 And for me, I learned a long time ago. Even though I can be a fierce competitor, I'll go back to my beach volleyball days. Let's say you and I met before the game. You were we're going to play against each other, and I liked you. We were casual with each other. Whatever I would play great. But let's say for some reason we didn't like each other, and then all of a sudden I was kind of pissed off. I would play terrible. I I don't play well, like that. I play well, and I'm loose having fun, yeah. And so since I run my heart rate, I am acutely aware of what a negative a negative thought does to your body, because I literally will turn my thoughts to something negative. And even though I am not making any more effort, I'm not running any faster, my heart rate is jumping six to eight beats a minute. Yeah, so that's also why I don't want to solve problems when I'm out there. You know, that's where I do want to drift away, because when I'm in my work day, right? I'm not daydreaming, I'm working. I'm focused on tasks and things that I can do with other people or places that are required to do during work time.   Michael Hingson ** 37:37 But it's great to have the opportunity to just let your mind go. And I think we need to do more of that. One of the things I also advocate a lot is that people should take time at night, when they're falling asleep or just before, and be introspective, think about what happened during the day, and do it in a in a constructive way. Never say, why did this fail? Why was I a failure here? But rather, what can I learn from this that didn't go as well as I expected? I've learned to not ever call myself my own worst critic anymore. I'm my own best teacher, and that's the way it should be, because first of all, it's a positive thing, and secondly, I am my own best teacher. No one could teach me anything. They can provide me with information, but I really have to teach myself and understand it and emotionally and intellectually deal with it. But I think it's it's so important to have that time just to let your mind go off and do things.   Nick Klingenmith ** 38:36 One of the worst things as people that we do is we start the day with yesterday, yeah. And one of the ways to prevent that, which takes practice, because we're used to it, is we also have to finish the day the day before. So like you're talking about, and this is part of my sobriety, too. It's take that daily inventory, and then I like to after doing sort of doing that exercise myself, I'll also say a nightly prayer, and then I'm going to meditate for at least five minutes, sometimes 30 to 45 probably five. And at that point I'm not trying to think about anything. And I go that that point is when I'm I'm listening or, right, you know, just trying to clear it out. But I think I remember a couple years ago, I was training for this race, and it was a big race, 50k mountain race, and I started to kind of have a panic moment of like, Oh, my God, I have to do all this training. What am I going to do? How am I going to prepare for this? I'm never going to do it in time. And so I asked myself, well, what's the most important thing I need to do right now to hit my goal? And the answer was, I needed to make sure I woke up to do my training in the morning, because that's the only other thing I can impact right I can't do anything about the next three months. So then I asked myself, well, if I need to make that happen, what is the most important thing that needs to happen right now for me to hit my goals? And this is when I was stretching and meditating at night. And I was like, well, I need a good night's sleep so I'll wake up and exercise. Okay, what's the most important thing I can do right now to make sure I have a good night's sleep? Go to sleep. Mountain came down to one breath. Yeah, I hear you. And that's it. I mean, it's I have it written on my whiteboard over here. It says, break things down to the stupid Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 40:26 and eventually get to sleep.   Nick Klingenmith ** 40:28 I mean, it's just the one, the baby steps that I can take. I remember, I was reading Miracle Morning at that same time, and I used to, because I was, I was struggling, and so I was using my meditations for visualization, and I was spending too much time there trying to create a future. And it wasn't giving me that relaxation, and it wasn't. It was actually stressing me out more, and I just needed to relax and just to focus on the single most controllable thing I could and just taking it, you know, take some pressure off myself, and that really was such a simple fix.   Michael Hingson ** 41:01 Yeah, I hear you, if I may, you've talked about being sober now for I think you said 10 years, yep, what? What led you to finally make that decision that you had to change and be sober.   Nick Klingenmith ** 41:17 My final drunk was very public. And by what I mean by that is I was supposed to be the speaker at my company's conference the next day in Vegas, and instead, I got thrown out of the hotel and trespassed in the middle of the night for trying to have sex with a hooker in a broom closet after apparently getting in a fight with somebody. Well, my girlfriend slept down the hall. I wasn't allowed back at the hotel. Told my boss, my lawyer, I lied to my girlfriend about whatever we were getting thrown out of. It took about five hours for us to get a new hotel, and when my head finally hit the pillow, I said out loud, I don't want to live this way anymore. But that was just the final moment. Because what led up to that was I was a very highly functional alcoholic, and I had been for only a number of years. To be honest, I had alcohol wasn't a big part of my life for a while, and then when it came back in, it came back in rapidly. And so really only a period about five or six years I became a highly functional alcoholic, and I mean highly my career flourished during this time, you know. And the thing is, I didn't I wasn't an everyday drinker. I didn't get drunk every time I drank, and bad things didn't happen every time I did, but more and more, my decisions were getting more selfish, my behavior was getting more destructive, and alcohol was just playing more of a bigger role in my life. So I it was when I got cancer the third time that gave me the excuse I needed to crawl deep into the bottle, because at that point it was already sort of critical mass. I wouldn't go anywhere unless I knew I was going to get drunk. Everything was selfish. I didn't know about it. I didn't think about it, and I was actually ready to quit because I didn't like the way other people would talk about me. So that sounds like a healthy reason, right? And so so I tried to quit on my own, and I spent a couple months just white knuckling it, and I tempted fate, and I went to every happy hour. I threw beer Olympics in my house. And I just, I think I wanted to prove that I could do both without, you know, be who I was, without being who I was. But what I also didn't realize at a time that alcohol wasn't the problem. Alcohol was just a symptom. Who I was was the problem. And so when I got cancer for the third time, they told me they couldn't operate. Um, spoiler alert, the tumor's still there. It's been there over 10 years, but that gave me an excuse to crawl deep into the bottle. And so for about a month, I mean, I just, I was drinking at that point, because who's going to mess with me, right? I have inoperable cancer. That was the excuse I needed, and it that's what really led me to take the gloves off, which led me to Vegas. So I tell you, this cancer saved my life, because I would have died for my drink and long before I would have died from the cancer. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 44:19 I hear you. Well, you've said that you recognize that you didn't overcome adversity. You survived it. What does what does that mean? And how do you overcome adversity?   Nick Klingenmith ** 44:29 I understand surviving it is when? How did I how do I say it for someone else? You know? It was because, as I'm standing there in the totality, here's the thing I told you, how I was growing up. You know, this sort of independent kid? Right child of neglect grows up to be independent, weird, right child with trust issues grows up to be self sufficient, cool, but at some time along the way, that just becomes resentment. It and fear, and it works against us, and that's what creates a little bit of the victim mindset, and so, and it's easy to get that way when bad things happen to us, we feel like it's unfair. I mean, it's just natural. Nobody's immediately like, oh, I guess it's just my turn. So I think living with all those things. But this is where, where part of it gets confusing is I survived something, and people would tell me how tough I was. I would all I did was not die from cancer. I didn't do surgery, I didn't prescribe treatment. All I did was not die. I didn't cure cancer for anyone else. So I survived it. I didn't overcome it. All I did was show up to a doctor's appointment like, I'm lucky that I got thyroid cancer and not prostrate cancer. That's it. So I didn't overcome anything. I'm a diabetic. I'm still diabetic. How did I overcome diabetes? By having it. No sir, I was surviving it. All I was doing was being diabetic, but the mindset of thinking that, man, maybe when am I going to get a break? All these things keep happening to me, happening to me. When you think that way, you're not overcoming any of it. You are just surviving it. And you know what? God bless you. Because I know it's hard for a lot people go through a lot, and it's sometimes hard to handle. To overcome it, though, we have to do something with it. That's how you overcome it. I'm a diabetic who helps other diabetics realize they can be ultra endurance athletes. I race with the words fuck cancer written across my chest. I'm currently fundraising for the American Cancer Society for men were pink. I do what I can to help other people who are hearing cancer. I have cancer for the first you have cancer for the first time. That's how I get back there. I try to help other alcoholics recover and get sober. I write books and share about my fears and things that other people can relate to in the hopes that they, too, can overcome those obstacles. And that's how I overcome it. Those things lose power over me now, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 47:08 and I think that last sentence is the real key to the whole thing. You're not giving them power. You're you're putting your power in your mindset elsewhere. You're not giving power to diabetes. Yeah, it's there. You're not giving power to drink. Since you become sober, have you ever taken a drink anymore? No, not at all. So you know you you took away the power, and you're putting the power into the mindset and all the things that you're expressing, which is so important, I think again, that's so much of what most of us tend not to learn, that a lot of the things that we deal with, we deal with because we give them the power, rather than moving forward and putting the power where it really needs to go.   Nick Klingenmith ** 48:04 It's we raise, we raise kids this way, man. And I mean, they're raising the moment to say it's not fair. Wait, everyone's supposed to get a turn, and that's not true. Well, everyone does get a turn, but they get it in a different way, and something I've come to appreciate, because here's here's something that if I wasn't a speaker, and if I had not written a book, I would never talk about cancer, because I feel like I'm sitting at the kitty table, and it'd be, quite frankly, like it's hard for me, like I had an easy road, considering cancer. I'm alive. I've had multiple surgeries, but I mean, God, compared to what so many people that I know have gone through and the people that we've lost, it took me a long time to be okay with the fact that I'm alive and to realize too that that's not something I need to apologize for, but especially if I'm gonna be a speaker and talk about having cancer, and in any way, let that, like me benefit from that, then I have to do something with that. That's what gives me the fuel. And I didn't know how to it was the first time that that I wrote f cancer across my chest. It was because a friend of mine had told me about their diagnosis and they were struggling with it, and I just, I didn't know how to help them, and I just, I just wanted to let them know they weren't alone. So literally, that morning, at five in the morning, I grabbed Sharpie and I wrote it on my chest, and I went out and I did the race, and I was expecting people, their kids around. I was a little iffy about using the F bomb, but I think cancer deserves all four letters, and everyone intended to agree with me that day, I was really surprised at just people tell me about their their loved ones they've lost, or the people struggling with it, or about their the people that have thrived. And I mean, I love hearing the survivor stories, because you don't hear enough of them, yeah, and it, what I've realized is you just. People know they're not alone. They just let it's like you're just letting people have told me about, like, their four year old niece while under the barbed wire crawl of a race. I mean, like, clearly, they they need to share. And so if that's if I help even just that little bit, then that's the role I get to play. And I say, get to play. And   Michael Hingson ** 50:19 I'm with you. I hear you. I talk about resilience, I talk about teamwork and trust. And, of course, tell my September 11 story. And I decided to start to do that. Well, first of all, it was my wife and I together. We decided that I should do that, because if we could help people move forward from September 11, and then, of course, later, from so many other things, teach people that blindness isn't the problem they think it is, and teach them about guide dogs and other things like that, then it makes life worthwhile. So I love to tell people today that what we decided was that selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more rewarding and satisfying than managing a computer hardware sales team and selling computer hardware, and it is   Nick Klingenmith ** 51:03 the other night. The conference I spoke at was a sales conference for a company in the logistics industry, but I've been in that industry for 20 years. I've spoken at least at a dozen conferences. However, all of them, except this one, were on sales or logistics, this one was on fear and overcoming adversity and finding purpose and finding purpose in your team and just thriving and leading the charge. And it was, it was such a different experience, and so much more fulfilling, yeah, in that 45 minutes than any of the time I'd ever spoken on another stage.   Michael Hingson ** 51:46 What do you think is your your greatest strength as a speaker? What do you really bring to speaking that makes you so successful at it?   Nick Klingenmith ** 51:56 I think that this will change over time as but I'm going to say right now, it's, it's simply my authenticity, and maybe not even that may not even change over time, but I'm very raw. I'm very vulnerable. I hold nothing back, and the thing I hear most about myself is that I'm relatable, and so I would say that would be be a differentiator, especially if you consider and this isn't a bad thing for someone who is far more known or professional or more of a brand name. It's not like they're not being raw and authentic, but it gets lost on their it gets lost on their audience over time, and you know, when they're more mainstream.   Michael Hingson ** 52:41 What do you think the the most powerful technique or tool is that you use that people do relate to in store, in in speaking,   Nick Klingenmith ** 52:53 I speak directly to them and share personal stories. Yeah, that's yeah. I mean, that's it. When I say I I should send you the link later, but I the talk I did the other night. I Maybe it's nervous energy, but I am just back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. But I'll tell you what, I made eye contact with every single person in that room, every other second throughout the thing I was I speak to them, and they are personal stories, then they're completely naked. There's nothing that I won't hold back because you know who I am now the obstacle course racing book, right? None of that matters if it's not, if I'm not completely honest about who I was, if I try to sell myself as having been someone else or something else, then I'm not going to help anybody. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 53:46 Well, and I find, as a speaker, that stories, and they have to be authentic, has to be you, but that stories make a difference. And I've, I've been in situations where a speaker's bureau hired me to go and deliver a speech, and I get there to find out that the speakers bureau was totally inaccurate and incorrect as to the kind of the organization that it was that I was going to speak to. And it taught me to learn that I have to customize every talk I give, and I need to be able to adjust, if you will, on the fly. Sometimes, in the case of one particular talk that I gave, it was a totally different kind of environment. What I was led to believe, fortunately, I could find stories to tell these people that showed that I related to them, and I got invited back to other parts of the organization later because of that. But I think that stories are the most important thing that we as speakers can bring, and they have to be true. They have to be authentic. Can't make it up. People can see through that. A mile away,   Nick Klingenmith ** 54:58 I feel like I have to tell the. Vegas story. It's the lowest moment of my life, and if it just it also just speaks to all of it in one incident. So it's kind of like it, but if the person who needs to hear it, you know, I, I don't want someone to just see who I am now and not relate   Michael Hingson ** 55:22 well, this podcast is all about unstoppable mindset. What are some ways to develop an unstoppable mindset? Do you think   Nick Klingenmith ** 55:28 for one we got to go through to get through it, we have to develop what we've been talking about, this sort of obstacle immunity, or at least this understanding that there's always going to be a next challenge. If we ever think that the mountain will be climbed. We can't be unstoppable. We simply have to accept that the purpose of life is to continue to climb. That's that's one thing, and how do we keep how do we keep doing that? Then achievement. I'm highly achievement driven. You can call it motivated, but I don't think so. I have to look for carrots. So whether it be personal, professional, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, some sort of development is also how we continue to develop that unstoppable mind. Because the only way to be on there's we can't be 100% unstoppable. We always have to continue to progress and to toughen up and to keep moving for it, one of the things though, that has to be ultimately critical. And people talk about this, but I don't know if they really spend enough time on it. Self belief is the gateway to an unstoppable mindset. You have to believe it before you can see it.   Michael Hingson ** 56:32 Yeah, I'm listening. I just agreed with you. Yeah,   Nick Klingenmith ** 56:36 no, I know I was I was cutting, I was stopping.   Michael Hingson ** 56:39 Yeah, I agree, though. I mean, you've you've got to believe it, and you have to believe it intellectually and in your heart, you have to believe it emotionally as well. It is, as I said, if, if you're not authentic, people will see through you a mile away, no matter what I when, when I started selling, I took a Dale Carnegie sales course, and one of the things that I learned in that course is that the best salespeople are teachers. They're counselors, they guide, but because they're teachers, they also adopt. If they're really successful, stories, they can tell you stories that you, whoever you are, can relate to. And so they've they've analyzed and they understand what you need, and they can tell you stories to show you why what they have will work, or the other side of it is won't work. And I've had that situation happen where I've been selling a product and went into a meeting and learned that clearly what we had didn't work, and it's a choice. Do you still try to push your product on them or not? And I think that that's the worst thing that you can do, is to push a product that's going to jeopardize any relationship you have. And I've told customers in the past, here's why my product won't do what you need. Here's what will. And the result of that has always been calls later that say we really appreciated what you had to say. We've got another opportunity, and you taught us what we need to know your product is perfect. We don't want to put it out to bid. Just tell us a price and we'll order it today. Order it   Nick Klingenmith ** 58:23 today. In the book I published a couple months ago, selling inspired, I actually talk about what I call being a bar stool sales person.   Nick Klingenmith ** 58:34 Just tell personal stories like pretend you're at the bar talking to the prospect, and convey those things, because people do want to buy from people these days, it's tricky, because they are heavily gravitated towards convenience, but so we have to change our approach on how we get to know them, or, more importantly, let them get to know us, especially if you're buying virtually, like a lot of people are These days, it's not the bar stool salesman has to, has to become a social app sales person, essentially. But people buy from people make it easy for them to get to know who you are. Connect on a different level. Because, I mean, I'm even part of a a Spartan group. Excuse me. There's about 15,000 of us in this Facebook community, and we are very strict about not promoting businesses and services and stuff like that. You know, this is supposed to be about obstacle course, racing, tips, tricks, positive vibes, whatever. But I recently suggested, and we just actually implemented something that we're calling it the the What is your profession? Because there's 15,000 people. Now I don't know the 15,000 but I'm actually close. I know several 100, and I'm actually close with several dozen. If any one of those people has a service that I need, I'd rather buy from them, sure. And if any one of them is like, Hey, I do this, and that they're getting the message from me, like you. Said, Hey, Michael, can you do this? Here's my email. Send it done? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:08 yeah, it's still connectionalism, and no matter what, you've gotta be able to connect or you've gotta create an environment where people want to connect with you again, though, that has to be authentic. You can't just fake it. That'll never work. It's   Nick Klingenmith ** 1:00:27 actually, it's hard for a lot of people. Now, I've been lucky for a while because couple things, going back in time, I've actually just been highly passionate about sales. So as far as like social content, I'd post sales, stuff, whatever. But I say that I'm lucky because of my story. I mean that would be like, you say your story. And what I mean by that is we have something different to talk about. I don't have to talk about being a speaker. I talk about things that are helpful to other people, and it just makes it easier, like, easier to engage now with, like, one of the guys that I'm coaching, he has no earthly idea how to start building or putting out any sort of content. And I'm like, bro, what do you like? He's like, like, just and so he actually posted something about the NHL that night, and it got decent content and feedback. Because I was like, he's like, You know what LinkedIn is not for? I go Shut up if we were at a standing at the bar together, like having a at a networking event. I don't want your spec sheet from your company. Yeah, I want to know what you're interested in and get to know you. So tell me, let people get to know you. That's it. Because when they click on your profile, if they don't, if all they see is your business brand, they're like, Okay, great, moving on.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:34 Yeah, it is, it is. It is crazy. We you talked earlier about how we bring up kids, and we bring up children in such a strange way. They don't learn to overcome fea

Self Intelligence? What is that. Well, listen to my conversation this time with Chris Knight to see and discover for yourself. Chris is from Australia where he has lived his whole life. As he was growing up he began encountering some medical issues such as what his doctors diagnosed as chronic pain. He was told he would have to learn to “manage the pain”.   After most of his school education he discovered that he was good at working with and helping people. He worked for an agency helping people to overcome life trauma for example. Eventually, he realized he needed to look further at how he wanted to live his life with pain and he decided he wanted to explore how better to help those around him.   As you will hear, not only did Chris study and find ways to help others, but he also learned how to help himself. He has been totally pain free for many years. He now has his own business working as what some might call a spiritual life coach.   He and I talk about what he calls your lower self and how it tries to take control over your life. He helps us understand how we can connect with our inner self to bring out and live through our higher self. We talk about fear and suffering and how we all can learn not to let those things control who we are.   Chris offers a great deal of good life advice that we all can use. As he tells us at the end of our time together, he works with people throughout the world and he is available to consult with you should you wish it.       About the Guest:   For the past 15 years, Chris Knight, founder of Self Intelligence, has dedicated his career to helping individuals transform their lives from the inside out. His approach focuses on addressing the underlying emotional and psychological patterns that shape people's behaviors, beliefs, and identities. Through a combination of powerful awareness practices and healing processes, Chris helps clients and students confront and heal the root causes of limiting beliefs, childhood conditioning, and emotional wounds. His approach is rooted in the idea that by understanding and releasing the deep-seated trauma and conditioning that often hold us back, people can step into a more authentic and empowered way of living.   Chris's work goes beyond traditional coaching or therapy. He specializes in guiding people through self-discovery and emotional healing by helping them access parts of themselves that are often hidden beneath layers of defense mechanisms and unconscious programming. His clients include people from all walks of life—whether they're struggling with anxiety, self-doubt, or relationship challenges, or addiction Chris techniques help them uncover the core issues that create these difficulties. His methods emphasize self-awareness, emotional resilience, and the ability to break free from the patterns of thought and behavior that no longer serve them. This holistic approach has earned him a reputation as a transformative leader in the field of personal development.   As the founder of Self Intelligence, Chris has not only worked one-on-one with countless students and clients but also developed programs and workshops that allow individuals to take control of their healing journeys. His work empowers people to reclaim their personal power by reconnecting with their true selves, free from the constraints of societal expectations and past conditioning. Over the past decade and a half, Chris has helped people from around the world make profound shifts in their lives, guiding them toward greater emotional freedom, self-acceptance, and the ability to live in alignment with their highest potential.   Ways to connect with Chris:   Website https://chrisknight.com.au/ https://selfintelligence.com/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/chrisknight_selfintelligence/ Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCynX0a9cJdcX9KTnggSxs8A Facebook https://www.facebook.com/chrisknightselfintelligence   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, I really want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. I'm glad Ashley set this up, and we'll have some fun. And as you know, this is all about having a conversation, and that's what makes it really fun. So looking forward to conversing   Chris Knight ** 01:38 Absolutely. Yeah, I'm more than happy to unpack an unstoppable, unstoppable mindset is certainly resonates with the work that I'm offering, and it feels like a really good alignment. So yeah, I'm looking forward to this. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 01:55 why don't we start? I love to start this way, because it's kind of fun and it always lays the groundwork. Tell us something about the early Chris, growing up and all that sort of stuff.   Chris Knight ** 02:06 Well, I mean, that's where all this begins. Well, it does. It absolutely does. My the work that I am offering to the world is something that I personally was supported by from my early 20s. I'm in my very early 40s now. So 20 years ago, I was in a pretty terrible space. I think a lot of people refer to it as like a dark night of the soul. I had a relationship breakdown, I had toxic debt, career dissatisfaction, chronic pain, there was a whole whirlpool of issues that were going on at that time, and I had no idea how to get out of it. I was seeking many different practitioners at that time in the conventional kind of Western approach, but also in the eastern as well to support with the symptoms I was experiencing, as well as mental health with depression, and I wasn't getting any long term results from from a lot of the things that I was I was doing at that time, I was told I was going to have chronic pain for the rest of my life, and I would have to manage that pain because I'd had it for about six years, and they couldn't quite work it out. I think they'd probably call it something like fibromyalgia now, or some other thing, but it was basically this diagnosis of managing a really poor way of living, and I just felt like that wasn't going to be how I was going to live for the rest of my life. Something deep inside me was it was saying, No, this is not for me. So that's when I started looking at myself in a way that I didn't even know was possible, and it certainly wasn't conditioned at school to do this, to go inside and become aware of what's happening behind the eyes. Often we're very aware of what's happening in front of the eyes and everything that's happening, or we become aware of everything outside through our senses, but what's going on in terms of our thoughts, our emotional states, the things that we become identified inside of ourselves, that is a large part of creating our lives, was something I was starting to look at so that, that kicked off this journey. Michael, and I'm imagining a lot of people were listening into this, this podcast with you, an unstoppable mindset would be also in some way, doing this, something like that. And. Of course, there are many different approaches to that, to that investigation and that discovery, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 05:07 sure, absolutely no question about that. Did you go to college?   Chris Knight ** 05:15 Yes, I, well, I, I got almost kicked out of what we call college, I think you would call High School. Still, we're in Australia, it's a bit different. We go to year 10, and then we go to college, which is year 11 and 12, and that prepares you for university. University. Yeah, I didn't go to uni till six, or could have been eight years after college where I did my degree in musculoskeletal therapy, and that's where I that was a major shifting point for me. I quit my very well paying job in the public service, which had a very promising pathway for me, what were you doing? I was a government housing manager. Okay, so I was working with very challenged people in society to look after their tendencies. And it was, it was the first time I realized I had a gift at working with people and helping them deal with their stuff. These people had major challenges, mental health, domestic violence, you know, drug abuse, everything you can really imagine at that a very severe level. And I had a very unique gift with working with these people. So that's where I just I decided I was going to take it further and combine my also experience with chronic physical back pain to go into muscular musculoskeletal therapy. So I moved from Canberra to Brisbane to do that, and that set me on a completely different path. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 06:58 So tell me more about that, what the degree was and how that kind of influenced where you went.   Chris Knight ** 07:05 Well, it I wasn't interested in the paths that felt to me were really isolating and mechanical in their approach to healing. So I went to a holistic School of Natural Medicine, and it was saying that their approach was holistic, essentially, right, which is what appealed to me, because that's how I healed what was going on for me. But I discovered that even though that's what it was stating to be, and certainly in terms of approaching body and body pain, it was holistic in that it would look at the whole body, but it didn't look at the stresses, for example, the internal issues that everybody faces that contributes to our symptoms. Right? So the body mind connection was not a subject, even in this arena, which was holistic medicine. And so that led me to study psychosomatic therapy. I'm not sure if you're aware of those terms. So yes, that oftentimes when people go to doctors, and the doctor will say, you know, this is a psychosomatic issue. This is not a real issue, that what they're saying is that it's all in your mind. So yeah, that's not what this is referring to. Psychosomatic therapy was recognizing the irrefutable body mind connection that has been well documented and just experienced by human beings, that the body and mind are connected is a very obvious thing, for example, if someone's about to go on a podcast, and they might feel a little bit nervous about it, so their body mind connection will report that as far as it might be the heart rate's increasing a little bit, there might be a bit sweaty palms. Who knows these kinds of things will be happening, the body's experiencing what the mind is thinking and believing and all of that is happening. We experience this every single day. And so you can look at that to the degree of how symptoms come about, right? So how do we experience pain and tension or posture and all sorts of things? So that's I had this wealth of knowledge of the body, and then I got the wealth of knowledge of the body mind connection. That was what led there. And then I was a body worker and emotional release facilitator and many different things in that therapeutic journey. For many years, I actually ran my own courses in emotional anatomy, which was very powerful. And then from there, I discovered that there was a missing piece of vital, missing piece in the practical day to day how to work with these things, so not relying on. Therapist to do the inner work. That's where That's where it essentially started to go. Everyone was getting major shifts and changes and discoveries, but not necessarily integrating that in their daily life as a lifestyle. And that's what I became interested in. How does this become a lifestyle, no different to exercise, no different to good eating habits or sleeping habits, many different habits that we know shape and form our lives. I feel as though inner work, which is what I call self intelligence, is what that is. It's a lifestyle choice that is a cornerstone of what generates health, happiness, fulfillment, joy, everything that we basically want in life. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 10:50 did you get the body mind knowledge from the university? Or how did you acquire that?   Chris Knight ** 10:58 It was through Herman Mueller, he ran an institute privately, but it was, it was certified. It was government certified. Actually, it wasn't a university. Universities don't do that kind of thing yet, but he was trying to get it into universities. That's, he's actually passed away. He was around 80 years old at that time, but he was approaching that because, yeah, that's, that's kind of the trajectory that was going at that time. But no, it wasn't at uni. It was, it was a course outside that was government certified, which to me, actually doesn't mean a whole lot. But yeah, yeah, the psychosomatic   Michael Hingson ** 11:42 part of it came from university, but then you expanded on it, obviously,   Chris Knight ** 11:48 yeah, no, this the musculoskeletal therapy was uni, and the psychosomatic was from Herman. Oh, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 11:56 okay, yeah. And well, and what's interesting is that you still found, even after Herman, as I understand, that there was some things lacking in terms of really dealing with the total emotional and mental aspect of it. And obviously it, it was an evolutionary process for you to get to the point of recognizing all of that. But you did, yeah, and what? What I find interesting, and I hear this often. We've had a number of people on the podcast who talked about their own challenges and talked about their the challenges they face with other people. And I'm fascinated and actually quite pleased to hear how many of those people will say that Western medicine really doesn't deal with it, and that Eastern medicine has to become involved. And you obviously took it even to a little bit higher level, but that Eastern medicine is a significant part of it, which really does deal more with the mental and spiritual aspect of a person's psyche and makeup.   Chris Knight ** 13:02 Yeah, well, see, I went to acupuncturist, I went to Ayurvedic medicine practitioners, I went to kinesiologists, I went to energy healers, like I went to I went, I've been around the block. Do you know what I mean? I went to her all around and in every one of those cases, I didn't get the work that I'm speaking to, which is directly dealing with my at the level of identity, where things really take place. And we're going to get into that. And I really delved into that more with my Buddhist practices in meditation. And meditation is widely known to be supportive to all sorts of issues, as many studies on this now it was the closest thing to a lifestyle practice that dealt with these things. What I find is, and I, and I experienced this for myself as well, is a lot of the time when we experience health issues or problems in our lives, often we don't want to take that level of responsibility for it. It's it's preferable to somehow be fixed by someone you know, like, have some kind of therapy intervention, whether it's Eastern or Western, whether it sounds esoteric or whether it sounds like a drug, whatever it is, it doesn't really matter. It's I just want that thing to fix me, and I don't really I'm so confused about what's going on inside me, I don't really understand it, or maybe I'm afraid to look at it because it's often referred to as Shadow Work, which is confronting. That's there's a there's a hesitancy to go into those places. And I but I find that that's where the core of the the issues are, in the dark places. There. Uh, that require, yeah, putting the light on. So I think you're   Michael Hingson ** 15:04 absolutely right. We, we in general, seem to be creatures that love, especially today, a quick fix to fix, and it's got to fix everything, and we don't take the time to analyze and look at ourselves very much. We don't get taught that. No one teaches us that, and fortunately, some people are learning it, but not nearly as much, or as often as it as it should be. I believe in doing a lot of self analysis, self analytical thinking, and I take time at the end of each day to look at what went on today. Why did it go on the way it did? What? What am I afraid of, or what was, what was I afraid of? And I, and I do, find that the more of it I do, and the more I think about all of it over time, the less fearful I become. And it isn't to say I'm not afraid, or it isn't it isn't to say I don't fear, but rather, I learn how to deal with it. We wrote a book about it that actually got published in August of 2024 called Live like a guide dog. And it's all about learning to control fear, and it's lessons I've learned from dogs, from my eight guy dogs and my wife's service dog. You know, for example, one of the my favorite examples, is that dogs don't do what ifs and we What if everything to death, which is what's so unfortunate, rather than worrying about just the things over which we really can have an influence in control. We worry about everything, and it just drives us crazy.   Chris Knight ** 16:47 Yeah, yeah, I completely agree, and I'd like to, because I I've noticed there's a there's a resistance to the word analysis for a lot of people, or anything that's mental when it comes to healing. I you know, because we're questioning our mind, we're questioning our thoughts, we're questioning our insides. We're looking at our insides. And it's important to view this as awareness work, not not mental work. Mental work is below the awareness in which we are looking at it. And from that perspective, it's a totally different vibration, right? And and so what it does do, exactly what you said, is it brings up awareness around things like, how many, what if thoughts have, I let dictate my decisions today, or dictate my emotional state today that I believed and became embodied with, right? And the question is, okay, I have these, what if thoughts? How then do I dis identify from those thoughts so they're not driving my behavior, my choices, which essentially is creating the reality that I'm experiencing. That is a really important question, and it takes disidentification, which is not mental work. Mental cannot disidentify. Mental can only create more mental so I just wanted to make sure that that was something understood in the approach. Because for the you know, for example, with with emotional anatomy and Psychosomatics, the notion was that the emotions are held in the body. You know, the emotions are stored in the body, because we have the fight flight process. And that that when you have fear like what you spoke about, you engage the fight flight process, the survival mechanism, yeah, and then that puts a charge in the body to be expressed in terms of, you know, fighting something running away from something freezing, pleasing. There's a whole range of different things that happen, and so that gets stored in the body, because often we suppress these expressions, and then it's like, okay, in order to heal from that, we have to release it from the body. Okay? So that's the current consensus for a lot of people. So when they hear about analysis, it's like, how does that release emotion from the body? You see that becomes a contentious point for some people.   Michael Hingson ** 19:28 Change it to introspection, then, yeah. I mean,   Chris Knight ** 19:32 I just noticed this. Like, yeah, introspection is a really good term. I also love using that term. But the point is, is that the body will not hold energy when the mind's not perceiving, particularly in the unconscious, that there's a threat as soon as the as soon as there's not a threat in the in the unconscious, there's no threat in the body, the body will not hold anything the. Body is neutral, actually. And I noticed that in my work, trying to, I was doing a lot of emotional release body work, which was hugely powerful, and still is powerful, particularly when it shifts the unconscious. But it would, there would be this reliance, again, on someone doing this thing to me that releases the emotions out of my body, and it's like, Look, you are way more powerful than this. You have the power for yourself to release or detach from the very thoughts and patterns that generate this in your body, but you would then have to do that work yourself, in a sense, right, which often involves support by a practitioner, a coach. I do this every day of the week, or in connection with the community that does this kind of thing, right? Yeah, but it's a different level of responsibility in the attitude of approaching it that way. And I'm, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, that's, that's, I'm finished with that.   Michael Hingson ** 21:08 But one of the things that I've learned, especially over the last year, I used to to always say, when I listen to my speeches, I like to record speeches and listen to them. And I always used to say, I do that because I'm my own worst critic. And I've you know, if, if I'm being critical, that's the really most important thing. And I've learned over the last year that's not the right thing to say I heard, and one I don't even remember now exactly where, but that nobody can teach you anything. You are the one who has to teach yourself. Other people can present you with information, they can give you the information that you need to learn, but you're the one that has to teach you. And I thought about that, and I realized that is so true, I'm not my own worst critic, I'm my own best teacher. And then that makes a complete positive shift to everything, because now I I approach things in a much more positive way. I don't approach things as well. This is potentially negative, and I've got to pick on me to fix it. No, I hear this, or I see this, and I can now look at it and go, Why am I reacting to it? And an animal. Well, instead of analyzing out and think about you, use the   Chris Knight ** 22:25 word you want to use, either one works   Michael Hingson ** 22:29 or think about it. But I I study it, and I go, all right, what? What can I learn from this? And that's what's really important. And I think that is, is so important that people need to do another thing that I learned from working with a lot of Guide Dogs and so on, is that while dogs love unconditionally, they don't trust unconditionally, but what they do is they're unless something has just totally damaged their psyche. They're open to trust, and they want to trust, and they want to be connecting with us, and they want us to be the team leader. They want to know what the rules are that we expect in a positive way, but they want to develop that relationship. And working with guide dogs, it's all about trust and teamwork right from the beginning. And the fact is that when you establish a trusting relationship, and you learn to trust the dog, and the dog learns to trust you, and you each recognize you have a job to do. Namely, the dog's job is to make sure that I walk safely, but my job is to know where to go and how to get there, and I have to communicate that to the dog with directions. And if I do that in a firm way, then we work together as a team. And the whole concept of being open to trust is so important. Yeah, there are going to be people within the agendas. They're going to be people whose trust you're not going to earn, and that's that is understandable, but be open to trust, and don't let a negative trusting experience destroy you or or cause you to not want to trust. Recognize that's only one individual. Most people are really good, and they do want to establish trusting relationships. I think, well,   Chris Knight ** 24:24 I mean, trust is one of the most important things, and one of the areas I'm working with all the time, particularly with relationships. Relationships is a is a major subject. I have people come to me because they have challenges, triggers going on in their relationships that continue to create a bit of a toxic cycle, or distance or withdrawing and so on. And it all comes back to trust at the end of the day. That's where it ends up, and it's the important question that is rarely asked. And or understood is, how is trust lost at the subtle levels we understand how trust is lost in more gross experiences, meaning, like denser expressions, like you know, whether it's physical violence or emotional abuse, or whether it's like cheating or just not doing what you say, there's all sorts of things there that will create mistrust. But actually mistrust is is is created on much more subtle levels than that. And if we don't understand our minds and the projections of our minds, like, for example, what we think we're entitled to and deserve, and what, yeah, what we feel is within our space of control and ownership, all of those projections go on To the other person and become a form of mistrust, yeah, but that is so unconscious. This is the thing it's I didn't know. For example, I didn't know that my unconscious insecurities, right, that were creating a certain type of expectation in the relationship was actually creating a mistrust between us that was then creating a barrier and a withdrawing for example, because whenever those things are happening, it's repulsive, like it has a repulsive, energetic about it, and then we all of a sudden see that there's something wrong, there's a distance happening. But how do I how do I navigate to this? Because I cannot see that my actions are really warranted in creating this issue. Okay, so this is, this is what's happening for a lot of people, and this is where this work becomes absolutely critical, because it's those little things, it's those subtler background issues right that all stem in insecurity, that come from the lower self, that really erode relationships and erode trust. And then it amounts to over time, big issues essentially just to represent what's going on inside, and it becomes like this, you know, destructive manifestation in people's lives. And then you know that there's all sorts of wounding and shame and guilt and everything that comes with with that, but we can catch these things way early on. But like you said, we're not taught at school, like we're not taught at school, we're not taught at school or at home. That by nature of being a human being, you have insecurities you're unaware of that are going to manifest in your life, particularly in relationships, but also in your work and various other areas, that unless you deal with them, they're going to cause you all sorts of problems. They're going to cause you, cause you suffering, right? And it and by achieving things like success or status and various other external things, these don't deal with those underlying insecurities. They don't, they don't actually solve the issue. And we are believing that they do based on our conditioning. We're told that if we are normal and if we meet the criteria that that feels like this is a life that's, you know, I could be proud of, then I will feel secure. And it's not true. It's just fundamentally not true, and yet, because we don't know any different, we just keep trying the same thing, expecting a different result, and that's really frustrating. I think for a lot of people, it is   Michael Hingson ** 28:59 we don't learn to connect with ourselves, and we also don't learn to, oftentimes, be open enough to say to someone else, you know, there's a distance between us. And I'm, I don't really like that. Tell me what you think. Tell me why that is, is what? What do I need to do? What can we do together to fix this, and that's it is an issue that we just don't learn to connect, which is too bad, because, again, I think that it's all about communications. Well, tell me more about this whole concept of self intelligence, where did that come from? And what is it? And so on.   Chris Knight ** 29:37 Well, that's what that exactly what we're speaking about is what it is so. So, for example, when I have a couple in front of me, and they've got these things going on, and they've got that distance happening, and maybe they did acknowledge it, right? And then they did have a conversation about it, like you suggested. They said, like, what are we going to what are we going to do? And they both find out very quickly that they they don't know. What the issue is, it's like I just can't understand why I'm feeling these really strong feelings over things that certainly don't match up. I'm I think I'll just try to be a better person, and maybe that will work. And this is what people try to do. They try to be a better person. They try to be a good person, and then it doesn't make a difference, because that's not that's not how these things work. Being a good person won't deal with things like insecurity, and then they find themselves in the same pattern, in the same cycle, and we still, we're going through the same thing again. So I'm going to ask someone else now how to deal with this now, unfortunately, for a lot of people, they still don't get this type of information with counselors and psychologists, although some do. Thankfully, some are really great, but most don't have this knowledge either, and that's what I saw. I saw this huge gap where, okay, let's boil down what's really happening here. We work it blow by blow in terms of unpacking the what I call the lower self. So we don't, for example, self intelligence is really the journey from the lower self to the higher self. Okay, that's how you could consider it. So what is the lower self. The lower self is often referred to as your shadow self, or your ego. Sometimes you can refer to it as your unconscious mind. This is the kind of place that we operate from that often holds the energetic of survival mode. So often, if you think of lower self, you'd almost think of the lower brain stem, which holds the survival aspects of our impulses, right, right? And when we're living from the lower self, which we all are, like everybody's living from this lower self. Firstly, everything's external, everything that's happening is out there, and it's happening to me, and that could be good or that could be bad, and there's a range of protection mechanisms for the lower self, like judgment and fear that cause it whole bunch of issues. Okay? It also has needs. The lower self has needs that are called ego needs that also cause it a whole bunch of drama, right, like the need to win, the need to know, the need to be right, the need to be supported, the need. There's all these needs, okay, and those needs create us a fundamental sense of lack in the person inside who is living this life. So this is all unaware of that's going on. Yeah, yeah. And so self intelligence is the intelligence of understanding, putting the light on that dark space that's in us that is running everything. Okay? People know this is happening when they they could make a decision. When we make decisions, we often go, God, why did I make that decision? Like, say it was a job or something like that. I was like, I knew in myself that wasn't the job for me. I don't know why I said yes, but it ended up turning out to be really misaligned with me. That's the lower self. That's the lower self kicking in and taking over. And this happens with people experiencing addiction. It happens when people don't feel like they're living their purpose. It happens for a whole range of reasons. It's like, so what's what's then making my choices like, if I know better, somewhere deep inside of me, what? What is taking over? And this is the lower self. This is what self intelligence is about. Is one becoming aware of the lower self, becoming just very clear about it. And I have a, I have a step by step, blow by blow, process that illuminates the lower self in clear view. It can it has no wriggle room to hide, because the lower self is the best hider that you can imagine. It loves hiding and running the show. It just it goes into any subject matter. It doesn't matter what it is, it will find a place to hide and then run the whole show. That's what it does. It's like, I'm going to hide over here and then call all the shots. Forget.   Michael Hingson ** 34:31 It gets back. It gets back to connecting and really connecting with yourself, which is what we don't generally tend to learn to do.   Chris Knight ** 34:39 Yeah, and connecting with yourself to the degree that you become aware, yes, of the drivers. For example, when you said, what if? What if is a is one of the lower self's favorite words, right? So when you become, oh, I just got that, what if, thought I'm aware of it now, right? Now? I have a choice. Whereas before, when I wasn't aware of that, what if thought I didn't really have a choice other than to react to that thought, whereas now that I'm aware of that thought, well, I can either take another look and see if this is a real danger that I'm dealing with and respond appropriately, or I can realize that that's a, you know, an illusory thought that I can dis identify with. So this is just one example sure that of how that works. So self intelligence is that, but it's also the process of discovering your higher self and your higher self is also known as your natural state. So this is your state, that is who you are, before you became conditioned with a whole range of beliefs, and before you became identified with a whole bunch of things in your life. There is no fundamental issue with conditioning or identity. You gotta be the one to discern whether those things cause you suffering like whether they're serving you or not. That's the That's the important thing, but, but, but beyond all of those things, you existed prior to, for example, your name. Like everybody was given a name at birth, you existed prior to your name, true or not, so you were in the boom, true you you were there before a name came, and then a name came after. Now what happens is we identify with that name, and then we associate that name with who we are, right? Yes, the identification process is the lower self, the part of you that realizes that you're not your name, but the name is connected to this body, mind, which is very important to practical reality, right? That's your higher self. It's the witnessing presence, the observer behind everything that's taking place. And self intelligence is the is the art of empowering yourself to live through your higher self. That that that that that consciousness that you are. So why would you want to live from that place? Because it is freedom, like if we take a a very honest look at our lives, the most the suffering that we're experiencing is coming from inside of us, like someone right now could be sitting here listening to this podcast with a whole bunch of problems in their life, like relationship, finances, all sorts of things, but in this present moment, the problem don't exist in the way that the mind is threatened by all of these things that are going on. These are real issues. The these are real they're not. It's not saying that those are real issues, but suffering them is what happens with the mind. And so if you want, if anyone wants to free themselves from the inside, they have to understand what's happening inside themselves in order to do that, yeah, and so that that's, that's literally what self intelligence is. And there's many forms of this on the planet, in different variations with different names. This is just one term to describe that, that pathway, yeah, well,   Michael Hingson ** 38:39 you know, it's it's interesting. Again, we worry about so many things. We're afraid of so many things, or we fear so many things, and well over 90% of them will never happen. And they're also things over which we really don't have any control, but, but we worry about them because rather than paying attention to the things over which we really do have some influence and control, we worry about everything else. It's so much easier to do, at least we think it is. But in reality, I think that focusing on the things that we really can have an effect on, I think is extremely important to do. I remember when I was running from tower two in the World Trade Center at one point, I thought, God, I can't believe that you got us out of a building just to have it fall on us. And then immediately I heard, as clearly as you hear me now, a voice that said, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running, in this case, with my guide dog, Roselle, and the rest will take care of itself. And I've had that as kind of a mantra ever since that day. Don't worry about the things that you can't control. Focus on the things that you can, because the rest of it isn't going to really be anything that you have any control over. Anyway, it was so easy, and I know people who did, who were just afraid. As we went down the stairs in the World Trade Center, the building was going to collapse. It's going to fall off. We're going to die. And in fact, some people said that. From my perspective, I will tell you that I was listening for any creaking groan in the building in case something happened. But I didn't let that worry me, because I knew that what I needed to do was to keep myself and my guide dog focused, especially keeping my guide dog focused, because Roselle would have and dogs do tend to have higher senses on a lot of levels than we do, and so if suddenly Roselle started to behave in a way that I didn't expect, then I could look at that and deal with it and figure out what was happening, which was my job, but if I worried about everything else, I couldn't focus on her and tell her she's doing a good job. Keep going. What a good dog and all that. And that's what I needed to do, and that's what I learned to do. Because what I did was to learn all I could about the World Trade Center, which created a mindset. And I didn't even realize it, but it created a mindset that said, if there's an emergency in the World Trade Center, you know what to do to deal with it. And that's exactly what happened to me. And so I was able to to deal with it and not worry about all the stuff that I had no control over, and I'll tell you, I have a very vivid imagination. I'm a science fiction lover. I've read lots of horror books and all that. So I imagine things that were probably a whole lot worse even than happened. But by the same token, I didn't let that overwhelm me, because I had something more important to do, and that is to keep me and a puppy dog focused.   Chris Knight ** 41:46 Yeah, that's you know, that I often find that disasters bring out the best in a lot of people, not everyone, but I do tend to find that all of a sudden there's this ability to prioritize things and really be the kind of people that we want to be in with each other. And like I said, That's not all the time, but there is a pattern in humanity that when we're in crisis, all of a sudden this this part of us comes out that seems to be like what we'd love to see in each other's lives all the time. What I tend to find is the discernment of what we're in control of and what we're not in control of is less there when we're not in crisis, when we're in an ordinary life, and when we're getting irritations by, you know, the people that we're working with or our partners, and the expectations that we hold for them, and the judgments that we have about them and ourselves, and our fears about what other people think, and all of that kind of thing is, is just the discernments not there. And so what happens is the reaction patterns that come from that start to play out, and then you get a certain, a certain kind of low level to high level anxiety depression, which is really just experiences a certain kind of I'm not feeling right in myself, like I don't feel comfortable in my own skin somehow, like something doesn't ever feel like I feel content. There's just this slight irritation in the system kind of going on.   Michael Hingson ** 43:31 Survival Mode kicks in, and it creates this whole negative environment where I've got to just do what I'm used to doing to survive, and we don't allow ourselves to stretch and grow,   Chris Knight ** 43:45 yeah, yeah, yeah. Because everybody has a calling inside of them, I feel that everybody has this knowing that they're here to learn and grow and to express a part of themselves that's very unique, but there's a fear that it won't be acceptable, it won't be received, it will be rejected, and maybe it has been in the past, by parents, by siblings, by, you know, people in the schoolyard, whatever the case. And it's a real shame, because that light inside of us becomes dim through through conditioning and through accepting that, and through the survival mode that you're talking about. And the work that I'm offering is for those people who know that that's there inside of them and want to know how to get out of their own way so that can come through, so that their their natural gifts and talents, their capacity to love, their capacity for connection, as you've been saying. Saying can actually be experienced in this life, right? Because there's a feeling like my my experience is so limited by this person inside of me who is controlling everything or needs control in the way that you're talking about, and I'm in my own way. And how do I get out of it? How do I get out of my own way? To have these experiences, to have this growth, right to to take this absolutely miracle of experience, like the scientists that they just cannot believe, like for someone to be bought, for you to be born is an absolute miracle. The odds of you being born, the way that it happens through billions of sperm, and you know, this whole process that takes place with with birth is like you're you're an absolute miracle, right? And we all know this intuitively, and there's a lot of shame in the system when we don't feel like we're giving this life our fullest because we're in our own way. You know, there's, there's a lot of shame that builds up with that. And yeah, and I feel like I'm I felt that way myself, that I'm speaking to my my lower self. That's I, that's what I experienced, was that, and fortunately, I was guided towards the ways in which to unlock that inner potential. Yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 46:33 your chronic pain went away along the way.   Chris Knight ** 46:35 Yeah, yeah. It went away very quickly. Actually, it was one of the things that really shifted very fast, I just lowered back pain. Yeah, that was one of the, one of the many things that came into alignment amongst many other things, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 46:54 So in a sense, you were, you were, if you will, causing your own pain. Oh, absolutely,   Chris Knight ** 46:59 yeah, absolutely, yeah. Because sometimes it's not like that. Sometimes it's a, it's an ergonomic thing. It's a, you know, it's an injury kind of thing, like this and that that is the case. It's not always like psychosomatic, if you want to call it, that body mind. But this was because of the chronic nature of it. I tell people, when it comes to this work, you're looking for patterns. You're looking for things that keep showing up and they're not shifting, they're not healing. So what that's saying is, there's something that's not been addressed inside that has to be looked at, you know, and so that that's I've worked with a lot of people with weight issues. I over overweight, and they're doing all the right things, they're eating the right food, they're exercising, and they're like, the weights not shifting. It's like, look, there's something else going on internally that that says that due to your perceptions, your beliefs, your experiences, that you have to continue to protect yourself in a certain way that's holding that weight. And until you address that, your weight is going to be very hard to shift. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 48:03 I know I used to be a lot more overweight than I am now, and I made the conscious decision to deal with it. And one of the things that I did was changed eating habits a little bit, but yeah, mostly it was again, a mindset, and since I began losing weight, I have lost about 85 pounds in the last five years. And so I'm very happy with that, and I'm not going to let it come back. And that's the way it ought to be. But, but I also know that it was a lot of me connecting with myself and recognizing that I had to make some changes, both in mindset and in food, but yes, also Yeah, but especially in mindset,   Chris Knight ** 48:56 yeah, yeah. I I felt the same way, like all the therapies that were trying to support my symptoms started to become way more effective when I was dealing with my internal so they all have their place. Everything has its place. Diet has its place. Therapies have their place. Drugs have their place. Everything has its place. It's up to us to understand how to discern when and where and how much of those things are necessary in our lives. You know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's the thing. And that decide I use this word discernment quite a bit, because discernment is the is the major aspect of self intelligence that as society and as human beings, that I feel as though we require development of. You know, we know this with children like they children have an adult in their life, because the adult can discern what's dangerous, what's not dangerous. The adult can discern if there's a boogie man under the bed or not. You know, where a child's mind will go off into all sorts of. Places, you know, and the adult can kind of ground them back to something that's safe and understandable. But we have to be that adult to ourselves. We have to be that adult to our own inner child so that we can discern what's happening, and the child inside, it does what the child does when it feels uncomfortable and so on. It just goes to the parent to get some kind of whatever it is, to get the boob, to get the dummy, to get the comfort, the relief of some kind they're not responsible for what's happening it's the adult who's responsible. And many people are living their lives internally as a child and the feeling completely overwhelmed by life, because the child like mind is not supposed to be taking on those kinds of responsibilities, and yet it's trying to, and it's suffering, and in order to cope with the overwhelm, it will employ things like distractions, addictions, to to to basically deal with the the uncomfortable sensation of that overwhelming stress and the amount of man, the amount of distractions that we can employ these days, and it will be experienced as procrastination, you know, it'll be experienced as perfectionism. It'll be experienced as sabotaging behaviors. It'll be experienced as energetically prostituting ourselves in situations that don't necessarily serve us. It shows up in all these different facets, and what that's saying is that that discernment and that that that adults like quality hasn't been yet developed to the point where you can trust yourself, and it's still then looking outside for the answers, where the the answers inside. And this is, this is a major shift. I feel it's taking place on the planet right now, because the more that technology develops as well. Our discernment is more and more necessary. What can we trust? What can't we trust? What information can we rely on or not? Becomes harder and harder as technology increases, so discernment is even more and more important. And I found it interesting that as artificial intelligence birth itself, so did self intelligence in like unison with that, which is actually a really beautiful compliment when they come together in the right way. But without that, they it could be, you know, it's likely to be another kind of tool that weaponizes against itself. So what   Michael Hingson ** 52:38 kind of practices can we employ to learn to live better through our higher selves?   Chris Knight ** 52:45 There are three primary practices that I'm most interested in that I feel get the best results, and I see get the best results, and they're tried and tested to get the best results in this particular area that we're speaking to. The first is self inquiry. And self inquiry is the is the questioning which it's an awareness practice. I just want to repeat that it's not a mental practice. It's it's a line of questioning that allows you to become aware of the unconscious programming and belief systems and traumas and wounding that are driving your actions and behavior and choices, that are creating your reality. So this, this is extremely important to become aware of those things and not to assume that you're aware of them. If you're seeing symptoms in your life, like I had to come to terms with this myself, right? Because everyone thinks they know themselves. Everyone believes they know themselves. I know who I am, right? Everyone has this strong conviction. I know who I am. It takes life to cause a fair bit of pain to go you know what? Maybe I don't know myself as well as I thought I did, right? And maybe there's some room for growth, and maybe there's some room to learn some things about myself. So you have to have that degree of attitude, which unfortunately, usually takes people a lot of pain, even like a dark night, to even get to that point. But that's the first step. Is to have a very clear, simple line of inquiry to illuminate that stuff, and to also have the line of inquiry, which is all in the one package of self inquiry to dis identify with limiting beliefs and negative emotional states that aren't serving you, right? So that's the first step. So self inquiry does that. The second step is to be in the vibration of your higher self on a daily basis. No different to exercising on a daily basis or other habits that serve there are many habits brushing your teeth on a daily basis, whatever it is to actually just be in the full experience of your. Higher Self, which is a guided meditation kind of process, and to do that daily. And what that does is that creates the space internally to be able to see those thoughts. Because if you don't have that space, you just are the thoughts. There's no there's no distinction there. And if the viewers listening to this tried meditation didn't work for me, that type of thing. Do not think about it like strict versions of meditation that that that was like I was trying to stop my mind, or this type of thing. It's not like that. I call these self recognition practices. So this the second step is self recognition. Recognize, recognize that you are the witnessing consciousness of everything that includes everything externally and everything internally. And just sit with that, sit with that recognition. And what happens is your vibration goes up naturally. You start to feel calm, peace, joy, creative, all of these natural things, inspired, enthusiastic. There's all this natural energy there, and you don't do and you're not making it up. You're not creating it. You're not trying to will yourself into those states. It's just what happens when you do this. So that's the second step. The third step I call self regulation, which is the physical body's way of coming out of the survival mode. So I teach that through body tremor, through body release and through breath work. So when the nervous system is kicked off, this could be anything. It could be like some stressful thing at work, or some jealousy issue in your relationship, or some because it's bring up some trauma. It's like, look, I'm going to take a few moments. I'm going to get myself regulated before I have a conversation, for example, or before I go on with this task, or whatever I'm going to do. It could be that I'm procrastinating. Procrastination is a survival mechanism. So it's like, I can do some breath work, and then all of a sudden I'm freed up. It's like, all of a sudden I'm good to go like that procrastination, that barrier, That invisible barrier of taking action, is no longer there anymore, and so it's another it's the physical version of coming out of that lower state of the lower self. And that's it. Those three practices are plenty enough to implement. Now the second practice, self recognition, that's a daily practice, self inquiry, often is something people use when they get triggered by things you know, like something happens, someone says something, a situation occurs, and you're not accepting reality. You're you're you're not okay with what's happening, and therefore certain perceptions, beliefs and thoughts have triggered off there to inquire, to come out of that state, because at the end of the day, it's a fear based vibration that you're in, and nothing you do in the fear vibration is going to serve anything per like useful so similar to if you were going into a rip in the ocean, panicking is never going to be the best thing to do. So it's just recognizing that nothing I do on the from the state of fear and judgment and ego based needs are going to like create as a result that I actually want, but we think that it will right? So we react to things all the time, we project things all the time, and think it's going to get us what we want, and it doesn't do that. It gets us actually the opposite of what we want. And so that's something we have to come to terms with. So that happens a lot of the time. Yeah, when we get triggered, if you're feeling really insecure about something, if you're noticing certain negative judgments, there's, there's all the different triggers for self inquiry. But it's more on a case by case basis that that's happening, and that could be like a 10 minute process, 510 minute process. And same with the that's the same with the self regulation, that that's also a five to 10 minute process to come out of that state. And it's it, what? What is it all saying? It's saying I'm prepared to look after my vibration. I know that in a higher vibration, things work out. Things go into flow, things seem to synchronize. Things seem to look after me in a way that's more serving and natural when I'm in the lower state. It's like the world's against me. It's like everything's like pushing shit uphill. It's just difficult, it's hard work. It's like the world's against me somehow. And it's like, I don't want to live from that state. I don't want to be make. Decisions from that state. I don't want to be relating in my relationships and my kids and everything else from that state, because it just creates more and more problems. So yeah, those are the those are the three processes, self recognition, self inquiry and self regulation. Yeah. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:17 basically, are you a life coach? Yeah?   Chris Knight ** 1:00:21 Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'd be sort of known as a spiritual life coach, because, only because I deal at the level of identity, which is where people usually use the word spiritual. I don't use the word spiritual because it has too many it's too much of a loaded word,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:38 even though that's what it is, yeah,   Chris Knight ** 1:00:39 that is what it is, because we're just dealing with disidentification semantics, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, there's no limit to the kind of issues that I work with in people's lives. I tend to find that I work with certain themes more than others, like the people in my community at the moment, and the clients that I have is very it's a very diverse thing, like it could be jealousy and relationship for one person, another person's coming out overcoming an eating disorder or body dysmorphia. Someone else is dealing with a sexual abuse trauma. Someone else has got dad wounds from childhood that have caused them to be narcissist in their work life, and it's causing them all sorts of problems. So they're dealing with narcissistic issues. So it's so to the core of what's going on for us that it's very holistic in that way.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:37 Yeah. So what is your business called?   Chris Knight ** 1:01:41 My name, it's, it's self intelligence is the method, is the the teaching. And my name is Chris Knight, and I'm the founder of that. So that's, that's essentially what that is. So people say, go see Chris if they recognize a certain problem. And he's like, I think he'll be able to help you out with that particular thing. There   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:01 you go. Have you written any books yet?   Chris Knight ** 1:02:05 I've, I haven't published a book. I've written a textbook in emotional anatomy, and I've got a podcast, a self intelligence podcast, where I do live sessions with people, which is pretty amazing for people to do that, to do live sessions, and I definitely intend to write various books, but yeah, at the moment, I'm just continuing to refine the self intelligence program. The it has gone through many updates to keep it as simple and as user friendly to people as possible, given that it's a lifestyle approach. And yeah, that's that's where it's at at the moment. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:54 if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Yeah,   Chris Knight ** 1:02:58 so they look up Chris knight.com.au, and you'll find everything there. The two offerings I have is one, I do one on one coaching with people on everything that we just spoke about today, and I often have a discovery call with people, just to make sure that they feel like I'm the right fit for them, for what they're dealing with. And two, I have a community, because everything that I'm doing is lifestyle based. So the meditation, the self inquiry and the self regulation, these are intended to become habits in our life, like exercise and other things. So it's like going to the gym. Actually, you can go to the gym and get an instructor, right? That's like the one on one coach. You can get an instructor and they support you through it. Or you can just be a member at the gym and then go whenever you like. Yeah, so we just come off the back of a 30 day self inquiry commitment, which involved four different practices, like four different inquiry processes, and we do challenges like that all throughout the year. We meet on a weekly basis to do integration, because integration is often what's lacking for a lot of people in the self development space, where they have a big explosive like heart opening experience for, you know, in a conference or a workshop or something like that. But then they go back to their old habits when they get back into their daily life, and it's like, how do you integrate that vibration that I know, I now know, is possible in my daily life? That's what integration these integration sessions are for, and they're weekly. So that's what that that community is all about. So, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:42 So again, it's Chris Knight, C, H, R, I S, K, N, I, G, H, t.com/a, u.com.com, dot A, U, sorry, yeah,   Chris Knight ** 1:04:51 yeah. I think if you just, if, I think if you just Google Chris Knight on its own, I think I'm the top are you on LinkedIn as well? Well, ah, no, no, no, no, I'm not okay, no, no, but I think on top of the search, but it might depend on where you're at in the world.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:10 Now I know how to find you. Chris, Chris Knight, now that's that's no problem,   Chris Knight ** 1:05:14 or search, or search, self intelligence.com, self   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:18 intelligence.com, which makes sense as well. Yeah, so   Chris Knight ** 1:05:21 you'll get there. You'll get there to me as well. And you know this is for people who want, who know in their hearts, they know that looking after your internal world is important, as to looking after your body in and to just have a small amount of time per day to do that as a lifestyle, but also when you feel like you're in the trenches, or you feel like you really require someone to hold your hand, in a sense, to get through some stuff, that's where the one on one sessions are there. And I work with people in America. I work with people all over the world, because we can do this right? And this is fortunately for what I offer. This works perfectly. It is not a barrier or an issue at all. In person is not necessary. It works great. So,   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:12 yeah, well, I want to thank you for taking the time to be here and talk about all this. It has been fun. And every time i i hear the kinds of things that you're talking about, that also tend to validate a lot of my thoughts. I like that as well, but I learn a lot, and as I as I love to tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else on this podcast, I'm not doing my job very well. So I really appreciate you being here, and I have learned a lot today. So I want to thank you for that, and I want to thank you all for listening. So wherever you're listening, please, we'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael Hinkson is m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, we'd love to hear from you, and please, wherever you're listening, give us a five star review. We value your reviews. We value your thoughts, and we especially do love those, those great reviews, so please keep them coming. We are very joyous to get those and we feel very blessed. If you know anyone who you think ought to be a guest on our podcast, Chris, that includes you. If you know anyone you think we ought to be chatting with, please let us know we're always looking to meet new people and make new friends. And as I've told Chris and I tell everyone who comes on the podcast, the only rule about being on the podcast is you gotta have fun. Otherwise, where is this engine doing it right? Exactly, exactly. So once, once more, I want to thank you, Chris for being here. This has been absolutely fun. So thank you very much. Thank   Chris Knight ** 1:07:50 you so much as well. I appreciate all your your effort and just your life story and the fact that you were just a living inspiration to anyone who feels that they have victimized by life, you have shown that you can thrive in this world beyond that whole narrative, and that's what this is all about.   Michael Hingson ** 1:08:14   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we a

And as if the above title weren't enough, Paul Hylenski is also a 5-time successful author, a pilot and a public speaker. Paul grew up in Delaware. He joined the Marines in 1999 and stayed with the Corps until 2007. He then left to join a large company and, as he put it, got the opportunity to observe both good and bad leaders. He and I talk quite a bit about leaders and leadership. I asked him if he observed bad leadership in the Marines. He said that people being human do find themselves not leading properly in and out of the marines. His insights about this are best left for him to tell.   Along the way Paul formed his company, Quantum Leap Academy. His company was formed to provide comprehensive training in AI technologies. He also formed VetMentor.ai, a service designed to assist military members in navigating the complexities of disability claims and career transitions with the aid of AI.   As you may be able to gather, AI is a subject Paul has learned a great deal about. He discusses how we all can use it much more than we do in ways that can and will benefit us along our life journeys.   Time passed for me quickly talking with Paul. He would love to hear from you, veteran or not. He has much to offer as you will see.       About the Guest:   Paul Hylenski is a dynamic business leader, software programmer, and motivational speaker with a deep passion for leveraging technology to enhance community and personal growth. After serving in the Marine Corps, Paul founded Quantum Leap Academy, a platform dedicated to providing comprehensive training in AI technologies. His vision extends into healthcare, where he has launched BioMarker Detect, an early cancer detection company. Paul's entrepreneurial spirit is complemented by his authorship, notably of his book 'Error-Proofing Humans,' which explores the intersection of human error and technological solutions. Paul's commitment to veteran affairs is evident through VetMentor.AI, a service designed to assist military members in navigating the complexities of disability claims and career transitions with the aid of AI. His efforts to democratize technology education are also showcased in his development of courses like 'Introduction to AI for Teens' and specialized training for veterans. Outside of his professional endeavors, Paul enjoys piloting aircraft and spending quality time with his family. His forward-thinking approach and dedication to service have made significant impacts across multiple sectors, particularly in AI education and veteran support.   Ways to connect with Paul:   LinkedIn : (1) Paul Hylenski | LinkedIn Website : www.quantumleapacademy.org   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello everyone, and pleasant greetings to you wherever you happen to be today. I am Michael Hingson, the host of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. It's a lot of fun to be here. I really appreciate you joining us today. Hope that you have as much fun listening as I and our guest have in bringing this to you, I tell everyone who's going to come on the podcast that there is only one rule that everyone has to follow on the podcast or we won't do it, and that is, you have to have fun. And Paul Hylenski is definitely a person who said he would him force himself to do that. So Paul, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here   Paul Hylenski ** 02:02 today. Thank you so much. Michael, appreciate it. Thank you for having me on Well, Paul is a   Michael Hingson ** 02:08 former Marine. He is the founder and CEO of something called Quantum Leap. He does various things with AI and technology. He is a leader by any standard. He's authored, if I recall write five books anymore, any more coming up in the queue, we'll have to learn about that. But definitely not a person who is idle, a man of action in a lot of different ways. And we're really glad that you're here with us. So why don't we start if you would, why don't you tell me a little bit about you as kind of the early Paul growing up and all that kind of life and all that and how you got started.   Paul Hylenski ** 02:45 So, you know, I grew up in actual Newark, Delaware, so funny, there had a great childhood. Decided when I was in high school that I was going to enlist in the Marine Corps, so I wanted to be one of the few and the proud, and so I joined the Marine Corps, served in the Marine Corps, that was one of the best experiences of my life. Then after the Marine Corps, I actually got connected with a company with that was an aerospace company, and started working there as a frontline leader, and then from there, I saw a lot of bad leaders, and I saw some great leaders. And so I was able to, actually, as I kept going through the ranks, tailor my leadership towards how I wanted to be. And it was different. It was using science, psychology and leadership. And then as the AI revolution started happening, I started actually putting AI into business, and I wrote a book about AI in business, and then I thought to myself, well, now maybe I can impact the world in a bigger way. And that was what kind of drove me to start Quantum Leap Academy. And Quantum Leap Academy focuses on teaching professionals AI that's practical and and then that's really been my passion and mission is impacting the world with actually teaching how to automate and really make your life easier using AI   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 Cool. Well, you've been been doing a lot of stuff. How did you come up with the name quantum leap?   Paul Hylenski ** 04:29 A great story, but back in the 80s, there used to be an amazing TV   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 show, yes. So   Paul Hylenski ** 04:35 I thought, what better? You know, I was looking for a name that showed like, look, we're gonna go from where we're at now, and we're going to take this huge leap, and it's almost a leap of faith, you know, that we can use this new technology in in the forces of good. And so, you know, broke it out from my childhood. But, you know, kind of took the quantum leap. And then, you know, the academy. So, and   Michael Hingson ** 05:02 it kind of went from there, yeah, well, so you said that you left the Marines. Well, when you left the Marines, and you went then to a major company, and you started out in kind of initial leadership and so on, how did being a Marine help you in terms of dealing with an understanding leadership, much less what made a good leader and what made a leader, not necessarily a good leader.   Paul Hylenski ** 05:31 You know, for me, and I've done, I've done a few talks, and I've done a couple TED talks, actually, on this. And for me, the military is is is a great example of what they what I like to call the total leadership. So in business, normally what we do is we only worry about the people when we need them, or while they're at work or while they're accomplishing a mission. But in the military, we have to worry about the total person, because even the person's home life, or maybe things they have going on outside of the mission impact their ability to carry out the mission. And, you know, I've said a couple things you know about just both the military rewards people. So in the military, you get medals, and, you know, you get medals and awards for sacrificing yourself for the good of your people. But in business, a lot of times you get, you know, raises and promotions for sacrificing everyone around you for the good of yourself. And I think that's a flawed dynamic that I really got to see in action in the military, and I brought that into the civilian business life, do you   Michael Hingson ** 06:45 and looking back on it, if you will, and you talked about you saw leaders who were good leaders and not so good leaders in the corporate world. And I don't want to pick on the military, but did you see the same sort of thing at all in the military, or do they really weed out people who don't tend to to do very well in the leadership role? That's   Paul Hylenski ** 07:07 actually a myth. So most people think that there's only great leaders in the military.   Michael Hingson ** 07:15 You did find some that weren't necessarily so, okay,   Paul Hylenski ** 07:18 yes, yeah. And you know, like bad leaders tend to shape us in different ways, and sometimes better than the better leaders. You know, because you learn more from watching people who might be doing it wrong. But you know, it is great learning experience. I learned some things to do, and then I learned some things that did work, but yeah, absolutely, there are bad leaders everywhere. So   Michael Hingson ** 07:43 what would you define as as a bad leader? What are some things that you experienced or you've seen that made people not necessarily such great leaders?   Paul Hylenski ** 07:52 So for me, it's, you know, leading through intimidation and fear that was a practice that was made pretty common all throughout, you know, 1970s 1980s and the myth there was that people stayed because they were okay with the treatment. Well, in reality, the reason why they stayed to endure that horrible kind of leadership was because they had pensions. Well, the world now doesn't have pensions for most part. So people stay because they like the place or they like the culture. You know, another defining factor for me for leadership is, do I feel psychologically safe with that person? Yeah. And, you know, psychological safety and the ability to make state mistakes and the ability to make failures and view them as growth really defines a leader that's focused on the future and not just on the present or the past.   Michael Hingson ** 08:48 In the military, did people have much opportunity when they encountered somebody who wasn't necessarily a good leader to move elsewhere? I would think that that was probably more challenging to do than when you're working for a company, especially a large company, where you could transfer probably easier, is that true?   Paul Hylenski ** 09:08 Yeah, that that is true. So sometimes you had to endure it and and then you make the best out of a situation. And, you know, like I was saying earlier, sometimes that's where I learned, you know, as I was going through things that just didn't work, you know, and the way you talk to people and treat people, and just even the overall demeanor that you have as a leader, you know, matters. And everything you say is a communication, but everything you do is a communication as well. And a lot of leaders don't remember that, or they don't, you know, they don't visualize that I   Michael Hingson ** 09:45 know, for me personally, and you mentioned the whole concept of fear and intimidation, and I've experienced it from time to time for a variety of reasons, being blind and interacting with. People, I faced challenges because people tended to not necessarily view blindness as as they should. And so oftentimes I would have people say to me, Well, you got to work harder and different than everyone else, because you're blind and people aren't going to perceive you as being competent. Well, there's truth to that to a degree, but there are ways to approach that as a leader. And I would think that when you're telling someone all the time, you gotta be better, you gotta be smarter, and so on, as opposed to saying, how do we make sure that you shine as best as you possibly can? And I don't know when I adopted this method of operation, but one of the things that I discovered fairly early on was that as I was managing people, and when I started really hiring people and opening offices for companies, one of the things that I said to people was, look, I'm hiring you because you've demonstrated to me, or you've convinced me that you can do the job. So my job isn't to boss you around. My job is to work with you specifically to see how I can add value to what you're doing to make you the best performer that you can be. And what I discovered is that the people who really got that and understood it and chose to find ways that I could work with them and use the skills that I have, and oftentimes they took the lead in discovering what they thought that I could help with but we worked together, and when they got that concept, they really did perform a whole lot better than those who didn't get it.   Paul Hylenski ** 11:53 That's a great strategy.   Michael Hingson ** 11:55 Well, I think it's and it's important, because I think that fear and intimidation doesn't help anyone, and it doesn't help you or anyone to develop a real trust if you're just dealing with someone out of fear, as opposed to dealing with someone through trust and teamwork, it's a it can be a challenge. Yeah, I   Paul Hylenski ** 12:18 think you know, one of the things that we're finding out more and more and companies are finding out is they never really made significant headway to fix issues or to get real growth because of that fear and intimidation. And I mean, just take, just take mistakes. Right? If I'm afraid to make a mistake, I'm going to lie, cheat and steal my way out of that mistake. I'm gonna blame it on everyone else, but if I'm not afraid to make the mistake, then I'll tell you, as my leader, exactly what happened, and then as the leader, if you know exactly what happened, you can work corrective action and fix it and make the environment better. And that's where the beauty and the secret behind that is   Michael Hingson ** 13:01 well, or the other part of it is because you acknowledge the mistake and so on, the leader will let you do the corrective acting and take the corrective steps that need to be done, because especially that will be a good learning experience for you, but they're there to support you, which is really the issue.   Paul Hylenski ** 13:21 And I think when leaders change their mindset from failure being this negative connotation, and, you know, failure being this bad thing, to, hey, that's just another step towards our growth, you know. But what did you learn from it? Or what are you going to do different, right? All those things, then all of a sudden, people start to realize they're in a growth mindset. They can fail, they can learn, they can proceed, and then they end up growing. Yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 13:49 I think overall, people really do want to grow. They want to evolve, but the leader is, or ought to be, the person to help really create that environment for people.   Paul Hylenski ** 14:04 Yep, and spot on. I mean, who wakes up in the morning and says, Hey, I'm going to be a loser today. I'm going to be a failure today, right? Nobody, so. But people fail, and people might not get something, they might not understand something, and you're spot on. The leader has to be the one that's their cheerleader or their coach or their mentor or giving them direction on Hey, you didn't really do well on this, but this is what you need to do next time. Similarly, a different way, or   Michael Hingson ** 14:34 you didn't do well. Do you have any idea of why? Because it's always great if you can figure it out. You know, I have worked with guide dogs since 1964 and it took a couple of dogs for me to develop and begin to articulate this. But what I learned is that every time I got a new guide dog, and we would spend time at the school or whatever, what I. Really doing there is beginning the process of creating a bond with a new teammate. And no mistake, dogs are as much a part of a team as anyone else. If you allow that to happen, most people really look down on on dogs, but the reality is that they have a lot of senses, and they have a lot to contribute. And the thing is, if you believe people like Cesar Milano and so on, the thing is, dogs really want to be a part, and they really want you to tell them what you expect from them. And in that sense, it's really cool. They don't have hidden agendas like people often do. And so the difficulty with people with hidden agendas is it makes it more difficult to trust them, and sometimes you can break through that. And the hidden agenda isn't such a hidden agenda that isn't necessarily a negative agenda at all, but we tend to be very closed in terms of trusting others, because we're always concerned about what hidden agendas they have. Dogs, I believe, do love unconditionally, but I don't think that they trust unconditionally. But the difference between a dog and a person is that a dog is generally more open to trust, unless something just really hurt them, which is something typically that it would be a person who did that. But dogs are open to trust. And if you create that trusting relationship, it is second to none.   Paul Hylenski ** 16:34 That's that's interesting. Know that?   Michael Hingson ** 16:38 Yeah, they The reality is that they want to please. They want to do a good job. So I've learned over the years working with guide dogs, it is an extremely stressful job for them, because they want to please. They want to make it work. And they're being tested whenever, for example, the harness is on, even when it's off a lot. But when the harness is on, they watch, and have to watch a lot what's coming up at the street corner, the curb is coming up. I got to stop at the curb and make sure that my person stops at the curb. I tell the dog to go forward, and the dog sees there's a hybrid car coming, and I don't know it, because it's in battery mode and so I don't hear it, but the dog, if I create a good, teaming relationship with that dog, the dog knows that it has the authority to not budge to make sure that we don't get smushed by the car. Likewise, if everything is fine, then the dog will go. But the dog has a lot of decisions to make in the in the guiding process. They don't lead, they guide. It's my job to know where to go and how to get there, and I need to learn that as I travel and make that happen. And the neat thing about it is that when the dog understands I'm doing my job, it feels a lot better about doing its job, and it knows what its job is. And in reality, what that ultimately means is that we form a good team, supportive relationship. And I think that is something that because just as relevant in person to person, leadership and teamwork as it is in person to dog relationships, oh sure,   Paul Hylenski ** 18:27 the ability to trust each other and feel safe with each other, absolutely. Yeah. So,   Michael Hingson ** 18:33 so you've done a lot. What got you started in dealing with AI? What? What attracted you to that? Yeah,   Paul Hylenski ** 18:40 yeah. My fourth book was actually titled The evolution of leadership. So aI had just kind of started coming online. I started researching AI, and then I thought to myself, Okay, well, now that I've researched it, I'm going to start actually using it. And then I went to actually input it into a few businesses, and once I realized, like, wow, like, I could automate 50 to 60% of the business with AI. And I started noticing, like we had time to be proactive, not reactive. Then, then I realized, okay, I'm we're on to something most anybody. If you ask them about AI, they're just going to say, chat, GPT. But there's, you know, 1000 different platforms. There's AI automations. So I thought, Okay, people just don't know. And, you know, the more senior people are, the least, the less that they knew about, you know, AI and chatgpt and everything. So I thought, Okay, well, the, you know, baby boomers and a lot of the you know, millennials, they're running companies right now, or they own companies, but they're the ones that are not able to really use AI or new AI. So you. Know, I've really tried to put a focus on teaching practical AI. So not just the, not just the theory and all the, you know, school type of material, but actually how to utilize AI to benefit you and your business. And that's been, you know, really fantastic since we kicked the academy off, we've gotten formally accredited. So when you take, you know, certifications, one thing that's different is a lot of places you'll take AI certifications, and you just get a little certificate, but no credits, and it's not formally accredited. And that was one thing we put a lot of attention into because as business professionals, the whole point of taking training is to grow in your, you know, career and grow in your job. So, you know, accreditation and credentials matter. But, yeah, that's what got me started, and then now it's become a passion. I, you know, I do free training for veterans. We actually even started a software as a service to help veterans put their disability claims in and streamline that process. So it's been it's been really fantastic. AI has opened up a lot of opportunities. How does AI   Michael Hingson ** 21:18 help in that whole process of doing the claims, applications and so on. What does it say? So it's   Paul Hylenski ** 21:23 absolutely great. So this was our startup company, which was a derivative off of Quantum Leap, and it's called vet mentor AI, so we'll be releasing it towards the end of the year, and we've already used, utilized it on, you know, test veterans, where they've actually allowed us to help them put their applications in. So the problem is that, you know, for first time submittals for veterans, it's a 70% rejection rate rate, so a lot of veterans either don't know what to do, or maybe they're afraid to do it. And then one of the big things is PTSD and anxiety. There's a fair amount of veterans that really have high anxiety, or maybe have issues from their PTSD, where this process is daunting and the fact of going in front of a medical examiner is almost impossible for them. So the way it does it, or what it does is it allows the veteran to basically in plain language, right? What's wrong? So they'll fill out a very simple form. It's something that you know, someone with basic education can fill out, and it's basically a questionnaire. And then we have a proprietary AI software that we actually built that analyzes all that data, and then it's trained on the VA rating manuals. It's trained on the VA forms, the VA website. And so what it does is it actually tailors the person's claim to the VA rating manual. And by wording it like that, it actually allows the veteran to get this comprehensive report, which even asks the person, Hey, did you have this medical documentation? Did you think about filing for this secondary claim and and so then the second part of this is we actually built an AI platform to allow the veteran to do a simulated CNP exam. So what a cmp exam is, it's a medical exam where the veteran has to go in and actually get examinated, and you know, then that that doctor will determine if they, you know, meet the criteria. So what we've done is we've actually utilized AI and allowed them to do their medical examination with an AI. It even has a voice, so that they can talk to it like a person and imagine and this has been wildly successful for our veterans that have high anxiety or PTSD, because they're able to practice their their CNP exam, and you know, it will critique their answers. It will let them know, you know, what, what their rating would be, and all this thing in the background. And it's really amazing, because then when they go in for their real one they've already practiced, and they are less anxious, they're less nervous about it, and they make better decisions. So the one great thing, and I'm so proud of this, because being a veteran, this was something that was really hard for me, was, you know, submitting my disability claims, so the average failure rate is 70% on the first time submission but with vet mentor, all of our veterans, we are currently at an 80% acceptance rate on first time submittals. So we've flipped the strip the script, and you know, instead of a 30% approval rate, we're up to an 80% approval. Boring and   Michael Hingson ** 25:01 it's interesting, because what I'm really hearing is that, to a large degree, the AI system is helping to train, much less helping to create the actual information that has to be submitted. So it's kind of a double pronged approach to solving a problem,   Paul Hylenski ** 25:20 yeah, and it's, it does it. It prompts them for, you know, something simple that I never realized in the beginning of the process was a personal statement. So it helps them to actually generate a personal statement about their illness or injury or disability. And then, even more than that, it prompts you to put it in the proper form. So most veterans don't know, but if you don't upload your personal statement in the 4138 Bravo form, they actually discount it. And there's a lot of veterans that are are submitting just a Word document with a little handwritten thing, but it, you know, the AI, actually, when we started doing this, the AI picked up that, hey, this must be done in this form. And when we were looking at it, we were like, Oh my God. We didn't even know that. So the AI taught us when we were actually making it   Michael Hingson ** 26:13 well. And how long have you been doing this? So   Paul Hylenski ** 26:17 we've been doing this for four months. Little over 20 veterans. So we're in the middle of, we're in the middle of the end stages of, you know, building the rest of the site and the platform. We basically, when we started, we kind of had three or four different types of AI systems talking to each other. So we're actually building and consolidating it just into one that's a nice little format for a user. And the beauty part with with our software is it's a one time lifetime fee, so you pay $50 which covers the cost of the AI software in the background, and you have it for life. So as your your disabilities get worse with age, because we all know they do. You have the software for the rest of your life, and it's for only $50 which is starkly different than the A lot of the companies out there, which you know they're preying on veterans. And what they do is they take 1000s of dollars or percentages off of their disability every single month. So that's one of the things that we wanted to do when I made this company. It wasn't to make money, it was to impact the world. So that's why we keep it just as a lifetime fee, just a $50 one time, and you're done. So the veteran basically just pays for the software is   Michael Hingson ** 27:43 bit mentor, a nonprofit like a 501 c3 company. So no,   Paul Hylenski ** 27:47 we're not right now. We haven't done any of that yet, just because we want to build the platform,   Michael Hingson ** 27:54 it's fair. Um, you've got to start somewhere, needless to say. So   Paul Hylenski ** 27:59 we've helped. We've helped over 20 veterans so far. So that was the big thing, was we get we got veterans in the beginning that we're like, Okay, well, let's try it out. And then, you know, we've done a couple pitches. We've, you know, been getting investments in, in the platform and everything. And the intention is, you know, I want to roll this out nationwide to help veterans. There's a little over a million pending disability claims right now, and if you just go off of the you know, the standard statistics, 70% of them will get rejected. Yeah, and that is a horrible thing for a veteran who maybe is having trouble at work, or maybe their disability is impacting their ability to get promoted and and to have to go through that after they've honorably served the country. You know that I'm trying to fix that?   Michael Hingson ** 28:53 Do you see expanding this and also working with people who aren't veterans by any chance?   Paul Hylenski ** 29:01 So we haven't thought of that. But that is a great idea. I was actually so we, we're in the VA Pathfinder system, because my intention in the beginning was actually to partner with the VA, because imagine a VSO, or, you know, one of the members from VA who are helping the veterans have this tool to help them. You know, I think that would change the game too   Michael Hingson ** 29:26 well. I'm thinking, for example, there are a lot of people with disabilities who have to navigate and interact with their state rehabilitation systems and so many other things that might very well benefit from what you're doing and also who will learn a lot, and that will help them with their confidence as well, which is kind of what prompted my my question, and my thought about it like   Paul Hylenski ** 29:50 we haven't yet, but you got my mind thinking now, and you know what happens when that,   Michael Hingson ** 29:54 there you go, yeah, well, that's, that's always, that's always a good thing, not. A problem. So when you started really integrating AI into healthcare and doing the things that you were doing, what kind of challenges did you run into, or are you running into?   Paul Hylenski ** 30:13 Yeah, the first one was when I started integrating it into business, I met a lot of resistance, because people don't understand it. So even something as simple as chat GBT, right? Just go real basic into AI. Chat GBT. There's so many people right now that either haven't used it or are not using it or don't even know all of the things that it can do. If you have a business, if you're a business owner, if you're a manager, if you are doing office clerical work, chat, GPT can probably boost your productivity just by 30% and you know, I mean instantly you will feel the benefit. I use it to write emails. I use it to do charts, data analysis. You know, there's a there is so many uses. You know, you can use chat GBT to build a game show that then you can use that game show to go train people on Excel. I mean, it's amazing the amount of limitless things that you're able to do with it. But chat TBT is literally like one grain of sand in the beach that is AI, and most people don't know that. You know, there's another platform that's make.com it literally builds automations. So this call our podcast right now, you could have an automation that it would literally transcribe the the podcast, then it could send it into four or five different directions. We could do Google Doc, we could do a Google sheet, we could put a summary about it. It would do everything all in one just by hitting one button. And so businesses are starting to use this because it's automating most of the clerical work that they do.   Michael Hingson ** 32:04 I know that I'm not using AI nearly to the extent that I could even chat GPT, and part of it has been that I've found some inaccessibility issues in some of the buttons that aren't labeled and so on. So gee, maybe I'll have to talk into giving me a better lesson on using some AI stuff, but I appreciate and understand the concepts of it, and so I know what you're saying, and I've used it to write articles in the past. And what I do when I when I bring AI or chat GPT into it, is I'll tell it to write something, and then my job is to look at that and massage it and make it my own and add my own stuff to it. And in fact, I've I've actually told chat GPT to create something, and I've told it to do it six or seven times, and I take the best of all of those, plus what I contribute to it, and turn that into the article that I actually publish. But the I think the most important part about it is that I really know what it's it's doing, and what I'm doing, and I know that I have to be the one to control it. I can't just go off and let chat, GPT create something and then submit it. That's not only worthless, but it's it's certainly dishonest. I've said many times. You know, teachers talk about students that use chat GPT to write their papers and all that, and then they turn them in, and sometimes you can tell that they're written by chat GPT, and sometimes you can't, but teachers are worried about that. My reaction, and I have a secondary teaching credential, so I do understand something about all this. But my reaction is, I think that for chat for teachers, chat GPT is great if kids go off and write their own papers, great if they use chat GPT to do it. Great because at the end of the day, you turn the paper in, and then the teacher calls you up during a period and say, not offend your paper, you're going to know real quickly who really did the work and who didn't. Yeah,   Paul Hylenski ** 34:11 and, and, you know, you brought up some good points there, right? So I have a, I have a colleague on LinkedIn who's the AI educator, and so what he actually has done is he's put a lot of AI into education, and there are softwares that a lot of teachers are using now that actually detect chat. GBT, yeah, detects AI. You know, one of the best things that people can do, and this is something that most people know nothing about, but you can actually create a digital twin of yourself, and it's very easy to do on open AI, so you can create an assistant that's actually trained on how you write, how you sound, right? And so this, we did this very easily for me, where I. Downloaded all of my posts, all of my interactions, and everything from LinkedIn, and I trained it on all of my books. So what happens is is you literally have an AI system that talks like you, has your same tone, has the same humor that you do. And when I do my posts and everything I do kind of the same thing you do, where I'll have my digital twin create the post and then I massage it or whatever, or go through it and read it. But what I've found is definitely for automations and definitely for email writing, these digital twins that you're able to create for particularly marketing as well. They're pretty spot on. I mean, you would have a hard time telling the difference between my digital twin and my writing. Of   Michael Hingson ** 35:48 course, you're leaving yourself open to the obvious question, which one are you the twin or the real person? But that's okay, yes,   Paul Hylenski ** 35:56 that's a good one today. Are   Michael Hingson ** 35:59 you a robot or not,   Paul Hylenski ** 36:01 no. But people don't realize that. And you know, the beauty part of it, Michael is like, so if you own a small marketing company, I mean, you could create 30 to 60 days of content in literally a couple hours. If you have a digital twin, and it changes the game, because you're able to scale businesses, you're able to do things. You can set automations up. You know, on some of my emails, particularly my personal emails, depending on what is in the email, I have automations where the AI actually responds to the email and it sends it to my drafts and then, so at the end of the day, we do as I look at the draft email. I click it, I click it, I click it up. I don't like the way that read it. I'll delete that and write it for real. But for the most part, I'd say it's about 90% perfect. And you know, I took, I take maybe about two hours of emails and turn it into about 1520 minutes. And so then it gives me an extra hour and some change every single day just on that task.   Michael Hingson ** 37:06 So here's a question, actually. So you do the process that you just described, and you go off and you massage some of the emails because you didn't like the way your twin created them. How do you then make sure that your twin gets trained on your changes.   Paul Hylenski ** 37:23 Plus, you know, I mean, you That's exactly it's the whole point is you have to what I'll do is I'll basically copy and paste the email, put it into my digital twin and say I did not like maybe the word, a couple of the words they used, or I didn't like the tone of this email, and so that's the beauty part with chat. GPT, yeah, and you know, any, pretty much, any, AI, the whole point of it is fine tuning it, so you have to, but most people don't realize that you can talk to the AI because it responds. So like, if you say, I don't like this, it's not going to do that, and it's so important, and one of the hacks that a lot of people don't do. So when I create something, let's say a business plan or a coaching plan, and I'll create it, I'll ask chat GBT to critique it for me and then improve it. So now I have it created, then I have it critique it and improve it, and pretty much, at the end of that, I have a pretty perfect document. And that's changed a lot of the the ability that I but most people don't realize you can actually have it critique its own work,   Michael Hingson ** 38:36 yeah, and that's and that's the reason I asked the question, because that's really the whole point. It is a, it is a process, and AI is opening so many things. I work with a company called accessibe, and accessibe uses AI and what's, what's called a, well, it's, it's a, it's a process where it can generate the code that will make a website more accessible, called an overlay. Some people say they don't work and so on, because they believe that you got to manually code it. But in reality, I can find manual coders who don't always do a good job. But what accessibe does is that they have created a system out of necessity. They're in Israel, and in 2017 Israel said, websites need to be accessible. And these guys that all started this company in 2015 and the company was making websites for people, well, suddenly they had to make everything accessible. And they created an AI process that does a lot of that. It's expanding and it's improving over time, because there are things that it it didn't do well, and there are things that it will get better at as it goes forward. But the fact of the matter is that it does help make websites a lot more inclusive than they ever were. So for example, if you're a person with epilepsy and you go to a web. Site that uses accessibe, and there are blinking elements on that page that could cause you to have a seizure. You can go into a particular disability profile on accessibe That's for people with epilepsy, and disable those blinking elements. And the way it all works is that accessibe's widget transmits the code not to the website and modifies the website code. It transfers the information directly to my browser and and my browser and my screen reader that verbalizes to me doesn't care where the code comes from, as long as it's there. So it's really pretty clever, and it and it's and it's making quite a difference. It's got a long way to go, but AI is new autonomous vehicles have a long way to go. They're pretty new, but they're getting better. So it's, it's a process, right?   Paul Hylenski ** 40:52 We're at the beginning of this, and it's, you know, starting to really grow. And so, like, you know, people, people just, you know, a lot of people are still resistant to it and, and there's good reasons for that, right? I mean, this is going to be very dangerous as much as it's going to be good, right? I mean, with the deep fakes and all the ability that you allow people to do with it, they but there's that much good with it too and knowing it. And once you start knowing it and knowing what to look for and learning it and everything, then you can start to pick up on maybe some not so good ways of using it, or, you know, the ethics about it, or, you know, the transparency about Yeah, how do   Michael Hingson ** 41:38 you balance the technological innovations and the ethics in, in what you do, yeah,   Paul Hylenski ** 41:45 for me, so that's part of what we teach in the academy. So like, the first and I have five levels there. Each level goes up, but in, in the first level, it's all about, like, AI and business. So there's a fair amount of, you know, ethics, transparency and everything about proprietary data, not putting certain data into it, you know. So for me, it's that is the biggest key, because especially with vet mentor, you know, you're dealing with really touchy areas, medical information and everything. And, you know, while it's kind of sanitized because of our process, you know, it's still it's new. And, you know, and with anything new, there's going to be some type of resistance, there's going to be questions, and people with the lack of information, they make up their own, right, and that's where you get a lot of the confusion about AI right now, but I think it's important to realize that, you know, this is new, so you have to tread carefully. And you know, the best way to actually protect yourself is to educate yourself, yeah, um,   Michael Hingson ** 42:55 and, you know, the internet and itself, it's got the dark web, and the web that's not so dark, and there are, there are going to be people who will misuse it, but what we we need to learn is how to bring ethical decisions into it, and over time, hopefully, we can bring down a lot of The the so called Dark Web, and let people know or or get people to understand that's inappropriate behavior. And I think the same thing with AI. And yes, you're going to see people who get fooled. You're going to have a lot of challenges, but there is so much positivity that can come from it that is is even more important than the negative parts,   Paul Hylenski ** 43:41 yep. And I think, you know, there's, there are companies out there, because I've talked to a couple of their CEOs that are actually building AI systems to detect negative AI, right, like, so they can detect the deep fakes and everything. And, you know, AI the one, the one touchy thing that it's done so in the in the past, you know, before the internet and everything, if somebody wanted to steal from you, they had to walk up to you and steal from you. They had to pick pocket you, or actually rob you. So you got to see the person's face as they were taking something from you. When the internet came, you had hackers that had no face, right? He was just this person on the other end of the computer, and they could steal your information or steal your money. Well, the problem with AI in this manner is, and why we have to be careful and we have to protect against this is, now it's your daughter. Now it's your husband, your wife, your boss, that comes on the screen and says, I need you to make this transfer. I need money, right? And it's really the thieves, but they've been able to clone, you know, your family member, so now the people stealing from you look like and sound like people that. You care about, and that is why it is getting drastically more difficult to identify some of these, you know, really tough ways that it's being used. So I'm excited to see the innovation that keeps us going to come out, you know, with some of these companies to actually screen for those deep fakes, because then I think once you can get rid of or regulate some of that negative usage, then people really will just focus on the positivity that it gets.   Michael Hingson ** 45:29 Yeah, because the reality is that it can be so positive for everyone, and that if people really learn that and catch on to it and ethically use it, there's, there's no end to the capabilities and the positive things that they can bring about.   Paul Hylenski ** 45:48 I mean, you have 10 year old children now coding websites because they've made it so easy they can literally type in to code a game. People are making their own games. You can go on Claude AI and literally make a web application. Just by saying, make a web application for a loan calculator. So you can create anything in the world. And before, I used to have to know how to code if I wanted to make something like that. Now I just type in what I want, and it spits it out,   Michael Hingson ** 46:20 yeah, yeah, and it's it is going to get better, which is really what makes it so cool. And I hope that people will catch on and understand that being positive and doing it ethically really is better and worth more than than the alternative.   Paul Hylenski ** 46:39 And I think so too. I think once we figure ways to have the AI protect against the AI, I think, I think it'll be even better, too. And, you know, I'm excited, because from the students that I've had in the academy, so many people from beginner level to where they thought they knew, you know, they thought they knew chat GBT. They thought they knew automations. It's been great because you see the light bulb click on, when some people are like, Oh, my God. Why was I taking a week to do that? And you just did it in five minutes. And you know, our level four is where you actually learn how to build a software as a service. And you know, our students walk away with a fully functional AI business. And there's not many schools, there's not many academies that you'll ever walk away with actually real practical knowledge or a real business.   Michael Hingson ** 47:38 Yeah, and that's what makes it so cool, and it it certainly helps to empower people a lot, doesn't it?   Paul Hylenski ** 47:45 Yeah, I mean, we had a school teacher build a CRM platform that then she took and she went and sold it to five different companies, and they're using her platform that we built in two days with AI, it was so crazy. And she's like, I never thought I'd be able to do something like this. And it's true, because five years ago, she would have never been able to do that, because that wasn't her specialty. Right now, you know, she built a fully functioning Software as a Service, and it was, it was the most beautiful thing to see. Her eyes light up at the end of it, where it was, like, I just built this.   Michael Hingson ** 48:24 Yeah, it is so cool that she's recognizing that she's still the one who did it and she used tools, but she's still the one who did it,   Paul Hylenski ** 48:34 yep, yep. And it's, that's really what's amazing is you can, you know, you show people, I bring up, you know, a lot of examples, but most, most people don't realize what they actually have the power to. And a lot of people come on, especially the level one people come in and say, I can't learn this. This is just so hard for me. And then once you start breaking it down to a very simplistic level of, hey, this is how to prompt. This is how the system reads your words. And once you understand that, then everything else starts to make sense. And it's so beautiful, because you have people, you know, creating things they never thought they could before, yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 49:20 that's what makes it so fun. And people do want to be creative, which is great. You've written several books. I know one you've written. I'm intrigued about. We haven't discussed it yet, error proofing, humans Tell me about that.   Paul Hylenski ** 49:33 Yeah, so error proofing, I love the title. Oh, it's great. And, you know, I got so many comments on that so that book, actually, I'm so proud of it, because it was an Amazon bestseller. You know, I've been on a book tour with it and everything. So I originally brought that book up because I thought, okay, error proofing humans there. So everybody you know commented and said, You can't error proof a human. That. Is the whole point of the book. So every human in the world makes anywhere from three to five mistakes per hour, if they're trained on a topic. Now that goes up by 11 times, potentially if they're they're not trained. So you have people every day making mistake after mistake. Now, most of them are what they call micro mistakes, and they're detectable, right? So you can detect, okay, I typed in the wrong letter, so I hit the backspace or whatever. But when you're doing some tasks, if you have that many mistakes, sometimes you don't detect them, or sometimes you can't correct them, and that's when we have accidents and injuries and everything. So the whole point of the book is, what if you could error proof processes and finally make an error proof human so what we do is we follow, and I did all the in the book. It's all the science and psychology behind human error, how to eliminate it or mitigate it. And one of the one of the key strategies that I'll leave with, like your viewers and listeners, is the Swiss cheese method. Now you can use this in your in your house, you can use this in your business. And it was made up by air, created by a guy named James Reason. And what he said was every process was like a piece of Swiss cheese. It had holes that the error or the accident could go through. So the only way to truly error proof human is to layer peace upon peace upon peace. And every failure you have means that the process isn't robust enough, so you have to add another layer of process. And what happens is, after a while, just like pieces of Swiss cheese laid up on after each other, the holes don't line up after a while, and all of a sudden you have error proof humans. And so we've done this in multiple businesses, and it has transformed their quality numbers. It has transformed their safety numbers. And what happens is, and when you can get people behind things like this, you know, you change the entire culture of the of the company or the business, or even at home. You could do these things that I say it in the book. You can do this with your children. You can do this with yourself, right to to make less and less mistakes. And you know, one of the things that a lot of people don't realize too, one of the other key main things, and then I'll get off the book, but one of the key main things the book is, you know, a high frequency, low risk activity like walking. So 30% of all injuries in a workplace are slips, trips and falls. And you'd ask yourself, well, how come people can't walk? Well, they can walk, right? But, well, I don't look at my feet when I walk, because it's a high frequency low risk, so my mind becomes immediately complacent. But if I were to drive a fork truck, or, let's say, operate a crane with a heavy load, every little sound that thing makes, I'm going to be on super high alert so people don't typically get injured on those high risk, low frequency jobs. So what you have to do in a workplace is you actually have to change the risk dia or dynamic to make it feel more risky. And by layering process after process, and sometimes check after check, you increase the risk profile, which decreases complacency,   Michael Hingson ** 53:44 yeah, which makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Yep, and, and I think that that in reality, we take so many things for granted. Gi, I don't know. I think there are a lot of drivers out there who consider driving like walking. It's high frequency and low risk, and it's not. And the way they drive, though, you'd think they think otherwise, yep,   Paul Hylenski ** 54:06 and that's why there's a lot of accidents, you know, but, and you know, there's a study that said the most accidents happen closer to the person's property, closer to the person's house. And you know, when you look at that, it's because I'm getting closer to home. I'm comfortable with the area. I become more complacent, and now I might run through that stop sign, or I might, yeah, make that turn a little faster than normal. So it's it's really important in an environment, and as we as leaders craft our environment. We need to look at the risk profile. We need to look at our processes.   Michael Hingson ** 54:47 It's also true that what we have to do is to learn to be more disciplined about what we do. And I think that's a lot of what you're saying. When you get closer to home, you tend to be more undisciplined, but you've got to keep the discipline. Plan all the way through the process? Yeah, absolutely. And that doesn't necessarily always happen. Were you a pilot when you were in the Marines? No,   Paul Hylenski ** 55:10 so I was a, I was actually worked on helicopters in the Marine Corps, and then after the Marine Corps, I said, you know, I want to, I want to fly and and so I got my pilot's license. It was one of the best things I ever did in my life. And, you know, it taught me a lot about complacency, because being a pilot and checklists and everything, the entire cockpit is designed to defeat complacency, yeah, and, you know, but I was telling a story last week, you know, the most deadly time for a pilot is between 250 and 500 hours. And you think to yourself, again, these are experienced pilots, like, why would somebody, you know, be more dangerous than than a brand new pilot? And it's because of that risk protein as a brand new pilot, everything matters. I'm going through every single checklist item, every noise that the aircraft makes. I'm hyper vigilant. But after about 250 or 250 to 500 hours, now I'm confident. I'm used to the plane. I'm we might skip my checklist, I might do something riskier than normal, right? And that's the complacency death trap, right there.   Michael Hingson ** 56:28 Yeah. And so after 500 hours, you have done it enough that, in theory, it dawns on you. I've got to stay disciplined. I've got to do this the right way, like I did at the beginning, and it makes me safer, and it makes the flight safer.   Paul Hylenski ** 56:45 Yup and, and sometimes, and a lot of pilots have told me that sometimes during that little 250 to 500 you have a lot of near mistakes or mistakes that you learn from pretty quickly. Yeah and, and then that's enough for them to say, Yep, I gotta break myself of this. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 57:05 exactly, right. Well, and we're we're seeing so many things at airports now. It's crazy. I don't understand how so many airplanes either collide with each other, or other equipment collides with them and so on. How come we're seeing a lot more of that than we used to   Paul Hylenski ** 57:22 think. Well, I have to be honest, I think as the travel keeps getting more and more, right, you're going to probably see a lot more of this, because it's taxiing. So taxiing for a pilot is at one of those low risk, yeah, high frequency things, right? I'm just, I'm literally down, I'm not in the air. You feel safe because you're on the ground. You're, you know, you're steering it. And a lot of times, they're also very task saturated while they're taxiing. Yeah, so one thing most people don't see is while they're taxiing, they're going through checklists, they're prepping. And, you know, you don't have a good view of around you in the cockpit. You only have a window that you really can't see in the back. And you know, so the reduced visibility, the high you know, high task saturation, and then that, you know, high frequency, low risk. It's perfect environment for complacency to crop up   Michael Hingson ** 58:20 well. And the reality is, a lot of times it's not a pilot's fault that something happened. They're also relying on other people, whether it's air traffic controllers or whatever. And so there are just a lot of issues, and I think that it is something that hopefully National Transportation Safety Board and the FAA and so on, will work more on to try to eliminate more of those accidents. I have a friend whose daughter went on a vacation last Saturday with her husband, and as they were backing away from the terminal, they got hit by some sort of piece of equipment, and it to late, everything by a day. I don't know any of the details, but just so many of those things happen. We we've got to not allow things to be taken for granted. But I, I would not at all say it necessarily wasn't any way a pilot error, because there's no way to for me to know that, and it probably wasn't, but it still happened, which is, which   Paul Hylenski ** 59:19 is, there's humans everywhere. So humans are prone to mistake. And you know exactly the point of the book is, you're never going to error proof a human, but you can air proof processes. Yep,   Michael Hingson ** 59:32 you can do that. Well, if people want to reach out to you and learn more about you, what you do, maybe become involved in your courses and so on. How do they do that?   Paul Hylenski ** 59:41 Yes, so the best, and I love for people to do this. I have a fantastic network and a community on LinkedIn. So the best way to reach me, and you can reach me personally, is through LinkedIn. Just look up my name, Paul Hylenski, and then if you are interested in. Learning. Ai Mike, it's Quantum Leap Academy. So it's www, dot Quantum Leap academy.org, so it's gonna be.org yeahlin ski   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:12 for me,   Paul Hylenski ** 1:00:12 please. So, h, y, l, e, n, s, k, I,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:17 so, Paul Hylenski on LinkedIn, which makes sense? Yep, and that's it cool. Well, I want to thank you for being here and being a part of this today. It's been educational for me, and it's been a lot of fun. I value the time that we spent, and maybe in the future, if you think we ought to talk some more, I'm always glad to do that. We can, can do more of this, but I really appreciate all the sound knowledge and advice that you shared, and I hope everyone out there listening and watching appreciated it as well. Love to hear from you. If you would let us know what you thought about our podcast today, you can reach me through email, Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael hingsons, M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O n.com/podcast, wherever you're listening, though, we hope that you like this well enough that you'll give us a five star rating as a review. We really value your reviews. We love them. Please give us a review. And if you've reviewed us on earlier podcasts, don't stop. We'd like to hear it about this one too. We really look forward to your comments and your thoughts. If you know of anyone who ought to be a guest, and Paul you as well. If you think of anyone else who you think ought to come on our podcast, we'd love to hear from you. We're always looking for new friends to make and new people who have stories to tell. So feel free to do it, and we, we'd love to to hear from you in whatever you do. So Paul, again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely a lot of fun and and I hope we get to do more of it in the future. Yeah. Thank   Paul Hylenski ** 1:01:59 you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity, and this has been great. Thank you, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:07 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

I have been looking forward to talking with our guest, Louise Baxter, for several months. I met Louise through one of our regular podcast guest finders, accessiBe's own Sheldon Lewis. Louise has always lived in Sydney Australia although she has done her share of traveling around the world. She attended some college at night although she never did complete a college degree. Don't let that prejudice you, however. Her life experiences and knowledge rival anyone whether they have a college degree or not.   While attending college Louise worked in clerical positions with some marketing firms. Over time she attained higher positions and began working as a brand or product manager for a number of large well-known companies.   At some point she decided that she wanted to bring a more human-service orientation to her work and left the commercial world to work in not for profit organizations. Part of her work was with the Starlight Foundation in Australia, but she didn't feel she was challenged as much as she wanted to be. So, in 2007 she left Starlight, but in 2009 the Starlight board convinced her to come back as the CEO of the organization.   Louise has brought an extremely positive thinking kind of management style to her work. Starlight in general has to be quite positive as it works to ease the burden of sick children in hospitals and at home. You will get to hear all about Captain Starlight and all the many ways the foundation Louise directs has such a positive impact on sick children around Australia. The life lessons Louise discusses are relevant in any kind of work. I am certain you will come away from this episode more inspired and hopefully more positive about your own life and job.       About the Guest:   LOUISE BAXTER is Chief Executive Officer, Starlight Children's Foundation. Louise has significant experience in senior roles in the commercial and NFP sectors and is described as an “inspiring and authentic leader”. In 2009 Louise returned to the NFP sector as Starlight's Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director. Louise's focus on exceptional experiences and relationships has seen improved metrics across all areas of Starlight. Louise is regularly asked to speak on topics such a positivity, organisational resilience, diversity, and innovation. She is passionate about the creation of organisational purpose and believes this is key to delivering maximum impact through people. She practices positive leadership and has been successful in developing high performing teams within a culture where change is embraced, and innovation is embedded.   Always thinking like a marketer…. Louise's personal journey and reasons behind the shift from corporate to the For Purpose sector. After more than 20 years in marketing and advertising in roles at ARNOTTS, Accor & Johnson & Johnson & in agencies such as Leo Burnett working on brands from Mortein to Coco pops, Louise's journey and the insights she brings as CEO are unique. The very first time Louise became aware of Starlight was actually doing a promotion for one of her clients (when she was in sales/marketing) who was partnering with Starlight. Just seeing the work of Starlight, made her feel so pleased that there was now something that changed and reframed the hospitalization and treatment experience for families like a family she knew as a child with a child suffering from leukemia.    The business acumen needed to thrive and succeed in the For Purpose sector. Often the perception is NFP is a step into the slow lane. Far from it. Louise refers to leading Starlight as if it is in ‘eternal start up mode' and bringing business acumen, finding ways to be efficient and driving growth.     Our business… is the business of brightening lives…. The business growth and success of Starlight since she began from 65 people & 120,000 positive experiences delivered to children, to a team of more than 300 delivering over 1million++ positive Starlight experiences to seriously ill children including more than 13,000 children's Starlight wishes granted.   Louise has lead Starlight through some of the most challenging times. Her positive impact has seen Starlight grow from strength to strength. Starlight enjoys a tremendously creative and innovative culture. Including ‘Most Innovative Company' accolade - an achievement which was achieved under Louise's Leadership.   Starlight Programs growth will be stronger over the next 3 years than it would have been without Covid as programs which Transform and Connect rebuild and programs which Entertain grow. As does fundraising as we layer our face-to-face events back over our digital innovations which have taken off.  We have our creative/innovative culture to thank for this. Stories of personal connections made with Starlight children & families who began their journey more than 20 years ago and flourished thanks to the work of Starlight, including now adults Nathan Cavaleri and Dylan Allcott OAM.   Over the years Louise has been personally involved in many of Starlight's fundraising campaigns, once literally putting her body on the line as she flew over the handlebars and was carried away from the cycling course injured on Great Adventure Challenge.     Storytelling is at the heart of Starlight's success, growth & behind the organisations' ability to connect its stakeholders to its purpose. Louise's has largely led this approach to drive advocacy, differentiation & brand recognition – now one of Australia's most recognised children's charities Passionate about DEI: One of the first things Louise did as CEO was to deliberately approach diversity at Starlight and this continues today. To effectively support the people & families we support, our team members need to reflect this. DEI is addressed at every level.. Inc Board & Exec split to Captains in SER.    Louise considers herself very lucky – her birthday is actually on International Women's Day: IWD, 8 March. She is an active member of Chief Executive Women, an advocate for female empowerment & equity and in incredible role model.   Ways to connect with Louise:   Starlight Children's Foundation Australia Website: www.starlight.org.au Louise Baxter's LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/louisebaxter   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone. Welcome once again to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. It's a fun thing to say I am your host. Mike Hingson, our guest today is the CEO of the starlight foundation in Australia, Louise Baxter, we met Louise through Sheldon Lewis and accessibe, which is always fun. Sheldon is a good supplier of folks, and we can't complain a bit about that. It's a good thing. And so today we're going to learn about Starlight Foundation, and we're going to learn about Louise, and we'll see what else we learned. That's why it's often called the unexpected. Meet anyway, Louise, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Louise Baxter ** 02:04 Thank you, Michael, it's lovely to be here.   Michael Hingson ** 02:08 Well, why don't we start the way I love to start. Why don't you tell us kind of about the early Louise growing up and some of those sorts of things and adventures you got into, or anything that you want to divulge? Okay,   Louise Baxter ** 02:20 alright. Well, I live in Sydney, Australia, and have done my whole life I've traveled a lot, but I've remained here in Sydney. And so life in Sydney was just blissful. And I think what I remember most is just having fun with my friends. It was back in the day where, as a child, you'd leave home on your bike early in the morning, and nobody expected you back till later, often in the afternoon, before dinner, and we had Bush nearby. I can remember catching tadpoles I sailed from the age of eight. My father was a skiff sailor here in Australia and and I had my first time in a Sabo at age eight, we went to the beach a lot, so there was surfing and fun in the sun. I played a lot of sports. So I'm a netball player, which is kind of similar to basketball, but a bit different. I played squash, so a lot of things happening, a very busy life, and I grew up. And I think this is the important thing with parents who were not well off themselves, but were, I mean, we were. We had a lovely life, but they were always raising funds, and our house was a center for raising funds for people who were less fortunate, or that helping out with the local netball club and things like that. So, so I grew up with parents who were very committed to working hard but always giving back, even though they weren't, you know, high net worth people themselves. So I think that's, you know, a great basis for for who I am today.   Michael Hingson ** 04:18 So you went to school and and all those sorts of things like everybody else did. How did your attitude about dealing with people who were probably less fortunate than many and so on really affect what you did in school? Or did you really sort of hone that found that that that spirit later? No,   Louise Baxter ** 04:42 no, I was always involved at school and raising funds. And even, you know, it took us a couple of busses to get to the beach back in the day. So I was in a local youth group, and we made a decision to raise the funds so that we could have one of the fathers, so that we could. Buy a bus, have one of the fathers drive the bus and get us to the beach on Saturday in quick time. So always looking for ways to never taking no or that's hard for an answer, I suppose, always being able to be part of the solution and get things done. So that was happening while I was at school as well.   Michael Hingson ** 05:21 That's kind of cool. So you bought a bus so that everybody could get to the beach. How many people were there that had to get there and use the bus? We   Louise Baxter ** 05:28 had about 40 or 50 people. And during the school holidays, we convinced one of the, a couple of the parents to take us on a trip through far west into, I'm supposing, what into our outback. So we went into kind of desert type lands, and we camped and a shearing a sheep station let us sleep in the shearing sheds overnight. So that was quite an adventure as well. And we did that for one school holidays on that bus.   Michael Hingson ** 06:02 So was the the bus? Well, who owned the bus was it? Was it a school bus, or who owned it   Louise Baxter ** 06:09 the youth group that we, the group did fundraising? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 06:13 cool, yeah. That's pretty unique.   Louise Baxter ** 06:17 I have great memories of that with, you know, green tree frogs in the toilets. Whenever you went to use a bathroom, they were always there looking at you and all of those kind of funny things that you remember, you know, watching and learning farm life and seeing some of the animals sitting on the fence while they were being branded and castrated and all kinds of things, but from as a city kid that was that was really valuable,   Michael Hingson ** 06:47 pretty and unique, but certainly the experience was well worth it, as long as you embraced   Speaker 1 ** 06:53 it. Yes, exactly, yeah. So   Michael Hingson ** 06:57 does that bus still exist today? Or does the youth group still exists now with new youth, that's a very long time ago. Michael, well, I didn't know whether it might have continued with new youth,   Louise Baxter ** 07:07 no. And I, you know, moved locations in Sydney, so I'm not quite sure what's happening there. Now, it'd   Michael Hingson ** 07:14 be exciting if new youth came along and took it over, but yeah, things happen and things evolve.   Louise Baxter ** 07:22 I'm just gonna say their parents probably drive them everywhere now. Yeah, it's   Michael Hingson ** 07:26 gonna say probably the adventure isn't quite the same as it used to be. No   Louise Baxter ** 07:30 exactly,   Michael Hingson ** 07:31 and, and that has its pluses, I suppose, and its minuses, but there, there are also more scary things in one sense in the world now than there used to be. Don't you think,   Louise Baxter ** 07:43 yeah, there are, well, there could be, or maybe, maybe we know more about it now because of our media and communications. So you know, all the kind of predators that impact you as children were around then, I suppose the accidents in cars are up because use of cars has increased. So, yeah, there are. There are different things that impact people nowadays. But us human beings, we're pretty resilient and and we always work out a way through, yeah, well, there's also, there's also a story from my childhood that I think is very relevant for what I do at Starlight, and that story is that you know how you have those family friends, who you grow up with, and you go on holidays with, etc. Well, that family for us, their eldest son was diagnosed with cancer, and back then, survival rates for cancer were very different to what they are today, and much lower. And he died when I was about 12, but as a child, I observed him suffering the pain of the treatment, and there was nothing like Starlight back then. And I saw also the impact that his illness had on his family. And I often think back to him, to those moments now that I'm at Starlight, because Starlight would have changed that situation and made it very different and far more positive for that boy and his family, and I think about about him and what they went through kind of regularly. So it's one of those things that's a childhood. It's a lived experience from my childhood, which, you know still kind of resonates with me today.   Michael Hingson ** 09:44 Well, yeah, and you know, we're, we're constantly evolving. So you can, you can think about that, and you can think about what might have been, but at the same time, the the real issue is, what have you learned? And. How can you now take it forward? And I think, as I said, that's all about embracing the adventure,   Louise Baxter ** 10:04 absolutely, absolutely and so absolutely take that forward,   Michael Hingson ** 10:09 yeah, which is really what you have to do. So you went to college, I assume, yeah.   Louise Baxter ** 10:15 And I actually went part time at night, so I actually went straight into a work environment. And for an organization, and was in the marketing team, just doing basic clerical work, and then I studied part time at night, so did a bit differently.   Michael Hingson ** 10:33 Yeah, well, did you end up eventually getting a degree? No,   Louise Baxter ** 10:37 I have no degree. Which is, which is something that's not, is very unusual in the United States. I know, oh, I don't know   Michael Hingson ** 10:49 that it's that unusual. But the the other side of it is that what you learn and how you put it to use and how you evolve is pretty significant. And that's, of course, part of the issue. Not everyone has a college degree, and sometimes the people with college degrees aren't necessarily the the brightest spots in the constellation either. Absolutely, it's,   Louise Baxter ** 11:13 yeah, there's a lot through lived experience, but I have, yeah, I've studied at various times, and most recently, I was awarded a scholarship. And I've had the experience of doing two short courses at Stanford University in the States, and I'm now on the board of the Stanford Australia Foundation, and so that's been a wonderful experience as a mature age student.   Michael Hingson ** 11:42 That's fair. Yeah, I just recently was inducted into Phi Beta Kappa, which formed the chapter at my university the year I was leaving, so I was able to go to the organizing meeting, but that was it, because then I got my master's degree and left and through circumstances, it was learned that all that happened. So last year, I was called and asked if I wanted to become an alumni member. So I got to be so I finally got to be a member of fraternity. Well, there you go. Congratulations. Well, it's a lot of fun, yeah, and I, and I treasure it and honor it a great deal, and spent a day down at my old university. I haven't really spent a lot of time there since graduating, well, back in 1976 with my master's degree in some business courses. So it's been 48 years. So there you go. Time flies. Well, so what did you do? So you you were working in the marketing world, in a clerical sort of thing, and what did you do from there? I   Louise Baxter ** 12:55 then became an assistant brand manager, a brand manager or product manager, whatever you want to call it, and I worked at Reckitt and Coleman. I worked at Johnson and Johnson and at Arnot snack foods. And Arnot snack foods was interesting because it was a joint venture with Pepsi foods from the US, because they were interested in the biscuit technology from Arnott's, and Arnot was interest interested in their snack food technology. And so what we had was a situation where we were sharing our expertise, and as a result, I was on the team, and we launched Cheetos, Fritos, Doritos into Australia, so they didn't exist here prior to that. Obviously Johnson and Johnson also, you know, big multinational, as is reckoned and Coleman. And then, after a number of years working on client side, I decided I wanted to move to the agency world. And I moved to Leo Burnett advertising agency, where I stayed for a decade. I was on the board there. I managed accounts like the Proctor and Gamble and kill on businesses as well as local businesses like tourism businesses and and wine so hospitality businesses here in Australia, very big wine company and and also the United distillers business back then. So had a lot of experience from both the client and agency side of working on big brands and growing big brands, which I absolutely loved, and we had a lot of fun, you know, along the way, in those days at all of the organizations where I worked, I made a lot of friends, and it's always important to have great friends from those experiences. And then I considered I actually left after i. Left Leah Burnett, I started an agency with two other people that's called Brave New World, which still exists to this day. I haven't been part of that for a long time, and then I had this moment of considering that I could potentially do something more worthwhile with my skills than than selling the products I'd been selling for all those years, and that's when I first made the decision to move to the what I referred to as the profit for purpose sector, and moved to Starlight in a role, and at that time, that was just a six month maternity position role. And I did that because I had great experience of brands from the client and agency side and promotions, so above and below the line. Promotions. I had worked on promotion supporting charity so cause related marketing campaigns. And I felt that the one thing I was missing if I wanted to go back into a corporate, into a corporate social responsibility role. Was that experience of working in a charity, and so I thought at that stage that my, my of journey was going to be back to a corporate because at that time, if you think this is over 20 years ago, triple bottom line was, and the third sector was really becoming important to organizations and to corporates. And so I thought I'd take my skills and go back to a corporate what I did instead was I went to starlight, as I said. It was a six month contract, but after three months, then CEO came out and said, What would it take to keep you here? I loved what I was doing, and I stayed at Starlight. I did stay for six, seven years. I then left and went back to corporate world, and I came back to starlight. So I left at the end of, what am I of? I left at the end of 2007 I came back in 2009 so I had that experience of back in the corporate world, and I came back as a CEO. It's   Michael Hingson ** 17:20 interesting. You started out in, as you said, in clerical work, but you started out in marketing, which, which you liked, what, what caused you to do that? Why marketing? Why marketing and sales, if you will?   Louise Baxter ** 17:33 Well, I love, I love marketing. I love brands, and I love the fact that, you know, brand is a living and breathing thing, and you can grow and change a brand. And I love, I love all the learnings around consumer insights. That was my specialty within marketing. So actually understanding that consumer behavior, and what I say about marketing is it's, it's hardly rocket science, because if you look at a young child, they recognize that they speak differently and use different language and words, etc, when they're speaking to their friends, when they're speaking to their grandparents, when they're speaking to their teachers, when they're speaking to their siblings, and so already, the concept of I have a different consumer in front of me, and I need to change my language and what I'm saying and my communication skills. Need to tweak. A child understands that from a very early age. So when I think about marketing, that's what you're doing the whole time. You're changing what you're the what you're saying and the way you say it, so that you engage more strongly with your consumer, and that's what I love about it, because communication is just so powerful, and you can take people on a journey. I'm also you know you can change behavior before you change the attitude, but ultimately you can move people and kind of change their thinking and their their their habits.   Michael Hingson ** 19:11 What's a really good example that you participated in of that I love a marketing story, loving sales and marketing as I do, I'd love to hear a good marketing story. Um,   Louise Baxter ** 19:22 well, there's, there's, there's quite a few. And I'll, I'll give you one. There was, I used to work on all the roads and traffic authority business, and at that stage, we were responsible for handling all the campaigns, from speeding to seat belts to drink driving, etc. And what was really powerful about those was your results were that every day you came into work and the road toll was there, and the road toll was, you know, up or down. And to work on campaigns which, over years, reduced the road toll because of the messages that you would keep. Communicate to people about speeding, etc. So whether people believed that they should be going, if you know, 10 kilometers slower in that particular zone or not, the messages of you know of penalties being caught, whatever the messaging you used to slow them down in that moment worked, and that saved lives. So, you know, that's, that's an example. I also worked on brands such as Special K, you know, and and for me, seeing, we created a fantastic campaign here that ran for about 20 years, and it was based on the the traditional Special K ads where women would wear clothes that they had years ago. And this one was about a mini skirt, but it was done in such a way that the woman was Stuart was the strength in the TV commercial. She was the lead. And that grew the business, and grew Special K at that time, at like, three times the market average for any, you know, product growth. So to see those things, and what I love is the results. And you you get it very strongly in those moments and and it's exciting.   Michael Hingson ** 21:17 You mentioned having been involved with working with Fritos and so on, which strikes a nerve when I lived in New Jersey, somewhere along the way, ranch flavored Fritos came into existence, but they didn't last very long, and I miss ranch flavored Fritos   Louise Baxter ** 21:34 we used to do when I worked on those snack food brands. We did so much testing and to to create tastes that are suitable, because tastes do change significantly, you know, region to region, and so ensuring that we had exactly the right flavors that would resonate and and sell here was really important to us. But along the way, we had some shockers, and we did have a lot of the specialist from FRITO lay in the states out working with us to craft those flavors. So we eventually got ones that worked here and for this region.   Michael Hingson ** 22:13 Yeah, and I'm sure that that must be what what happened that ranch flavored Fritos just didn't sell enough. In   Louise Baxter ** 22:20 cell Michael, you didn't have enough friends,   Michael Hingson ** 22:23 I guess not. Well, we didn't know enough people in New Jersey. What can I say? But, but we contributed as much as we could. My wife and I both loved them, and we we bought ranch flavored Fritos every chance we got. But unfortunately, that really probably wasn't enough to keep it going. So we, we mourn the loss of ranch flavored Fritos. But you, you did that, and it's interesting, because if I were to bake this observation, in a sense, although part of your job has changed, part of your job hasn't changed, because it's still all about marketing and educating people. Of course, now you're on the not for profit side, but that's okay, but what you're doing is teaching and educating, and now you're doing it for more of a social cause than a profit cause.   Louise Baxter ** 23:21 You're exactly right what we're doing every day because is, we're marketing our organization, and it's all about communication, and that communication might be very different with, you know, high net donors to community groups who support us in terms of how they connect with us. The impact stories are the same, although you also learn that certain individuals might prefer programs that support children, or might support prefer programs supporting older people, older children, or might support programs that support our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children. And so you learn that through all your discussions. So it's all about hearing, because marketing is about really listening and and so I am still, you know, everything we do is about really listening and really hearing from the kids and the young people we support. You know, we need to listen to their situation and what, from our program's perspective, is working for them. So I feel it's very, very similar to what I did, because I was a product manager, so I was always listening to our customers to create more relevant products, and then communicating to people so that they we could sell those products. And the difference here is, back then they were the same people, so you would listen to your customers, then you'd be selling to them. And now what happens is our customers are the children and young people who are seriously ill and hospitalized, and our customers, the people where we're getting the funding from, are the donors who. Support those programs. So you break it into different groups, and we have far more stakeholder groups that you're managing in the profit for purpose sector than you do in the for profit sector. But that keeps it   Michael Hingson ** 25:14 interesting Well, so what is in in what you're doing today? And I'd be interested to to hear a contrast. But what does what does success mean to you today, and what did success mean to you when you were in the marketing world?   Louise Baxter ** 25:30 I think that that's always, you know, being the best you can be, and achieving the the metrics you need to achieve. So that's not changed, and always having really positive relationships with, you know, and partnerships. So for me, none of that's really changed. And I think that, you know, authenticity is very, very important. And so I constantly say, you know, with me, what you see, what you get, I'm the same person, no matter if you're a friend, a colleague at work, whatever, and I think that makes life much easier than if you were different people in different spaces. So I think there's a there's something that's very consistent about that. And I, I am that kind of person who doesn't take no for an answer. It's just okay. That's that's a bit trickier, but how can we get that done? So I'm always, always been solution focused, and I think that's been that's really important. And I think, you know, Obama has made comments about the type of people he wants to employ, people who get stuff done, and that's that's exactly me, and who I look to work with. So none of that has changed, but for me, it's now incredibly important. We're changing lives every day, and I think that what Starlight does in this country is we believe that that happiness in childhood matters, because happiness in your childhood is the strongest determinant of how you perform in your education, your employment, and with long term healthy life behaviors, children who are seriously ill have their ability to be happy significantly impacted. And so what we do is we sort support them with a whole range of programs. And I can talk about our theory of impact, but it builds their well being and resilience. And I know that that that you talk a lot about, you know about fear, and I think resilience is that thing that that gives you the strength to move through those things that may be frightening to you at some stage, and kids who are seriously ill are going through so much that is unfamiliar and frightening to them and painful. And so Starlight has been creating programs which are all about positive psychology and built on the tenants, if we can build, if we can distract a child by something that's positive help them to look forward to something positive. On the other side of treatment, it changes their engagement with their health care, and it changes their health outcomes for a positive and so that's incredibly important, and we were using this a decade before Martin Seligman even coined the phrase positive psychology and and now as as clinicians recognize, and they've recognized this for a long time, but are increasingly recognized the ways this this can be used to create improved health outcomes. And let's face it, you know, healthcare is one of the most innovative, fast moving sectors you can possibly work in, and clinicians have changed and improved health outcomes for every illness and disease you can possibly think of, and that's amazing. And so Starlight has been part of that improvement in healthcare, but the recognition that your mental health and well being is completely connected to your physical health and well being. And so while the doctors and nurses the clinicians look after the physical Starlight is engaging with the child within the illness and helping to lift their spirits, support their well being, resilience, giving back that joy of childhood. Because, you know, a clinician once said to me, Louise, in treating their illness, we steal their childhood. And so what we're about at Starlight is giving those kids back their chance to simply be a child and have that fun of childhood, which is where we started this conversation. You know, childhood should be about fun and having no inhibitions and not worrying, not a care in the world. And children who are seriously ill live in a very kind of adult world where they're dealing with concepts such as life and death. And that's not where any child should really be.   Michael Hingson ** 30:05 So when you're when you're dealing with a child, what, what? What do you do to bring the child back to the child, if you will, as opposed to all the the challenges that they're going through? Because certainly, when you're dealing with a disease like a cancer or whatever, it is, a very tough thing. So how do you bring that child back to being able to be a child at least for part of the time?   Louise Baxter ** 30:32 And that's, that's, you're absolutely right. It's about moments, because, and we talk about moments which matter. You can't do it for 100% of the time, but if you can lift that child and distract them and take them away from that, even if just for a moment, it changes everything. And I, I we have a whole range of programs that cater for this, in hospital and also in community. And last year, we created nearly 2 million so it was 1.9 million positive Starlight experiences for children. And that's the way we talk about it, because they're all so different. But we work in three general areas, and that is, we transform, we work in partnership with the clinicians to transform the healthcare experience, and we even build physical spaces in the hospitals, all the children's hospitals in Australia, which are manned by a character called Captain starlight. So we employ nearly 200 Captain starlights, who are all professional performers, and they work with the children, and they engage. They don't perform, but they use performance skills to engage with the child and the child's imagination, because a couple of things about children is that they are in they have incredible imaginations, and they are also easily distracted. And one of the things about most parents is they they try to work out how they keep their child focused? Well, we use the fact that children can be intensely distracted for good. So, you know, for example. So talking about that transforming the healthcare experience, some of our captain starlets will actually work in a treatment space with the clinicians, and they know how the treatment is going to unfold. Not so they could ever perform the treatment, but be so they know when to distract the child, when to keep the child very calm, etc, throughout that procedure. But let's say it's a burns dressing change that to a child. The pain of having a burns dressing change is like having your skin removed every time the dressing has changed, and what we do is we have our captain starlights there, and children don't have the psychology of pain in their mind. They will be intensely distracted, and their pain threshold then increases by up to 75% by simply distracting them, which means then they don't need to have an anesthetic for their treatment, which means that that child may not have to stay in hospital overnight because of that anesthetic and etc. So by using the power of a child's mind engaging with them, we can change that scenario. They won't feel the pain. Now, for an adult, that sounds weird, because if we were having that burn stressing changed on an arm, even if someone was distracting him, we'd be waiting for the pain, whereas a child just gets absorbed in the distraction and is not waiting for the pain. And so that's the difference. So we transform the healthcare experience, we provide opportunities for children to connect, because social isolation is one of the key issues associated with serious illness and treatment. They're pulled away immediately from their local friends and family, often into, you know, a hospital that's in the city, and that's the way our healthcare system works. The big children's hospitals are in the cities. The kids come out of regional areas and into that so they're away from everything, all their friends that their bedroom, everything that's familiar, and so that social connection is really important. That's part of what we do in our Starlight Express rooms, which are in every Children's Hospital. They also are TV stations within those hospitals and broadcast to the bedside of the child. So if the child's too sick to come into the Starlight Express room, they can be part of that and have that social connection from their bedside. So quizzes, for example, are really important for us, and we run a quiz every day, and sick children have lost that ability to compete in so many ways and have fun and have that little banter that you have with people when you are competing. Yet a quiz brings that all together. And we often have, we always have prizes, but it means a child in their bed who can't physically come into another space with another child for issues in terms of their illness and and. Um and infections and cross infections, etc, they can still be involved, and they can win the quiz, and, you know, be on television and chat with the other kids. So those things are very important. And we also promote entertainment, because entertainment is a great way of of distracting children. And so we talk about what we do. We transform the healthcare experience. We provide social connection that's so missing, and moments of entertainment. And our program sometimes deliver all three, but they're created for one specific reason, and so we're all about having fun. And for me, when I see a child come into a Starlight Express room, especially a child who's recently been diagnosed, you can see they're often in a wheelchair. They're holding an IV drip. They have their head down, their shoulders down, they have the weight of the world on their shoulders. They're looking like no child should ever look and you see this child come into our space and start to lift because a Starline Express room is a haven away from the clinical nature of the ward. They start to lift. They see the space. They see the captain starlights, and for me to observe that same child, 510, 15 minutes later, roaring with laughter, completely forgetting where they are and why. That's the power of starlight, and that's what we do through all our programs every day. And that moment lifts that child and gives them, builds their resilience and gives them the ability to go back into that next round of treatment, surgery, etc. So it is in that moment, and it changes everything.   Michael Hingson ** 36:40 How does the starlight experience differ in America and our healthcare model here as opposed to in Australia? Do you have any idea?   Louise Baxter ** 36:52 Yeah, well, we have, we man all of the spaces in our hospitals. So the hospital, when a new hospital is being built, they they they allocate a section that is the Starlight Express room space. We then build the Starlight Express room, and these are quite large spaces, and then we man it with our own paid team members and volunteers that would never happen in your healthcare system, just with legal issues and liability, etc, you'd never see that happening in in America. So that's, I think, the key, the key difference from things that we do in Australia, we also are a wish granting organization, and we are the largest wish branding organization in Australia, and we have programs called we have a program called Live Wire, which supports young people, so teenagers and up to the age of 20, and that is in hospital. So we then don't have Captain starlights. We have live wire facilitators, and then we have live wire online. We also have a virtual Star LED Express room, which we created and trial during COVID. Because obviously everything around the world and definitely in Australia, was in lockdown, and our programs were an essential service in the children's hospital, but we were restricted, and so we'd been toying with the concept of a virtual Starlight Express room for a long time, and so we used COVID as that opportunity to trial that, and we trialed it. It was very successful, and we're now rolling planet Starlight into every hospital across Australia. All people need there is a QR code. And so we put up beautiful posters, which are also games that kids can play that has a QR code, and they can go directly to Planet starlight. And planet Starlight is set up has live shows of Captain starlights during the day, but also games kids can play directions, how to do art. So if a child's seriously ill, but at home or in another hospital, they can do all of this stuff. And it's it's not that you need a full tank kit. We do it and understanding that children will be able to work with what they have that's near to them. We even have things like I spy for an emergency room space so that kids can stay distracted, no matter what part of a hospital they're in. We also now support families who are in at home palliative care, because 70% of children in this country who are in palliative care are at home. That's not necessarily end of life palliative care, but palliative care can go on for a number of years, and those families are incredibly alone and isolated, and so our Starlight moments program delivers things to uplift that family and have them know that someone's thinking of them during this time. And. Again, it is those moments which really, truly matter.   Michael Hingson ** 40:05 So, um, how did what? What do you know about how it works here, or what actually happens in America? Do you have any real notion about that? I mean, I understand all the legalities and all that, but how does it differ what? What do they do here to be able to foster that same kind of climate. Yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 40:22 they're still about happiness matters, right? Which is fantastic, and they do that with, I'm trying to think of the name now Fun, fun boxes that they have delivered into hospitals with toys, etc, for kids. In some hospitals, they are able to do a refresh of a playroom to make it a starlight space. But it's then not like ours are manned every day with team members. They have little carts that help kids transport round the hospital. So yeah. So they have a whole range of things that they can do within the limitations of the different health system. It   Michael Hingson ** 41:06 must be a real challenge to keep up the spirits of all the people who work for starlight. How do you keep a positive work environment and keep everyone moving forward and hopefully reasonably happy in what they're doing, because they they have to see a lot of challenges. Obviously, yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 41:26 we we're authentic with our commitment to positive psychology. And so getting close to 15 years ago, we started working with a group here in Australia called the positivity Institute, and we started training all of our team members. So every team member who joined Starline is trained in the tools of positive psychology, because you're absolutely right. And I use the airplane analogy, you know, if the plane's going down, you're always told that you put your you have to put your oxygen mask on yourself, because if you don't put it on yourself, you're of no use to anyone else, and POS, psychs like that, you have to care for yourself. And self care is so important, because if you are not caring for yourself, and if you are not topping topping up your own cup, then you're of no use to support and coach and help other people, and so we have positive psychology is the one authentic thing that, just you know, moves right through our organization. It's at the heart of everything we do for the children and young people. And importantly, every question we ask ourselves about every business decision is, will this improve the way we support the seriously ill children and young people, yes or no, and then what we do is we carry that through, because for us to be able to provide the support we do, and you're absolutely right, working often in very challenging situations, we need to know how we can look After ourselves. So POS site flows through the whole organization, and we are an organization that is a great place to work in Australia, there's actually, you know, a survey that's done annually, and corporates and other organizations are ranked, and we're always in the top group of performers there. So it's, it's also very critical to maintain a high performing team, because we need to be sure of able to have our team bring their best self to Starlight every day. And that's what post psych does for us. How does   Michael Hingson ** 43:37 that work? What? What do you do? I mean, you, you obviously have people who go into situations and they get hit with so many sad sorts of things, but obviously you're able to bring them out of that. How do you do that? Well,   Louise Baxter ** 43:52 as I said, Everybody's trained up front and recognizes the tools or has the toolkit for prossite, but we don't just leave it there. So the people who are working in hospitals have daily debriefs. They have a support crew from an employee assistance organizations who work with them. That's the same person who works with those teams. So they then have weekly debriefs, monthly, quarterly. So we're onto it. It's, it's, it's a, May, it's a, it's a, it's very strategic in the way we support them, and it's very considered. And so that support is there for people on a daily basis. So   Michael Hingson ** 44:35 you, you, I'm just thinking of a question I'm going to ask, you're doing a lot with children and all that, which I think is really great. Is there any chance that this kind of approach could also work for older people, adults and so on?   Louise Baxter ** 44:57 Absolutely, and it. It would also work. I mean, we're working with seriously ill, right, and hospitalized children, but it would also work with group, other groups of vulnerable children. So, you know, happiness and positive psychology is something that works for everyone, quite frankly. And so one of the things that's a side benefit of starlight being in a hospital is it lifts the morale of the whole hospital team. So the hospital, the hospital team, is happier. Because if you think of working in a children's hospital, if Starlight was not there, it can be a pretty dour place, and the challenges are every day, but with starlight, they're lifting the spirits, having fun, being silly. It changes everything for the clinicians I know, I've been at the door of a lift, an elevator, as you would say, and and before the lift, the doors open. A doctor who's been waiting there, notices that two captains walk up to hop in the elevator and and the doctor will say, I'm taking the stairs. I never know what those guys make me do between floors, but laughing. So you know, our captain starlights are about that fun. And the thing about Captain Starlight is they come from Planet starlight. So there's a mythology around them, and they fly to planet earth every day in an invisible rocket ship that lands on the roof of the Children's Hospital. And the great thing about this is that the children are then in the gun seat in because they understand everything about Planet Earth, and the captains don't. So the planet the captains will do silly things like pick up a pen and use it like a telephone and go, Hello, you know. And the children will go, No, not that. So it's that merge of slapstick and kind of vaudeville and the child engaging with the child. But they will, can they? Our captain? Starlets will do that silliness with doctors and nurses too, which is also hilarious. And that's the comment from the captain from the doctor. So Right? It keeps the morale of the entire hospital, because, you know, it changes from having children who are crying and distressed and frightened to children who are roaring with laughter, um, despite the fact that they're seriously ill, that's great.   Michael Hingson ** 47:25 How can we bring that to adult patients?   Louise Baxter ** 47:29 Well, do you know what I've been working or I've been walking with our captain starlights as they've had to move through an adult part. You know, some of our hospitals are adults and children's and then the youth are on the other side. As we've walked through, an elderly person stopped and said, Hey, captain, could you sing me a song? And so they had their ukulele there, and they launched into, you are my son. I think he might have requested, You are my sunshine. And you can see immediately the change in the person. So it, it is something that definitely works, but at the moment, we don't have the funding to meet all of the need that we have for children and young people. So while it's, you know, potentially a great concept, it's, it's not something that we can move into in the the immediate future. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 48:24 and you can only do what you can do, but it would certainly, it would seem to me be exciting if people would bring more of those programs to adults too, because adults could could use it. And I'm sure you know that I'm not saying anything magical at all, but I would think there are ways to bring a lot of this to adults that would help lift their spirits. I know when my wife was in the hospital, it was very boring for her. Now she was in a wheelchair, so she was in a chair her whole life. So she had other challenges being in the hospital when she needed to use a restroom or have help with a bedpan, sometimes it took a while and so on. So just a lot of things that could have been better for her, that I think would have made her experience better. And I realized that she was probably, in a sense, a harder case than some, but still, it would just be so nice if we could do more to help all of the different kinds of patients in hospitals and make it a better experience for them.   Louise Baxter ** 49:23 Yeah, that's that's what we're doing about, about changing that healthcare experience,   Michael Hingson ** 49:29 yeah. What about the whole concept of diversity, equity and inclusion and so on? How do you deal with a diverse population? So for example, in all the things that you're talking about, what if you discover that one of the children that you're dealing with is blind in the hospital? How do you adapt so that they get as included as other people in the things that you're doing? Yep,   Louise Baxter ** 49:53 we have. All of our team are trained in dealing with. Children who are blind, who are deaf. We actually recently had training, and we had our captain starlights. They were all blindfolded, and they were going through sensory experiments to teach them how they can better use sound and other things to work with children. So So our team is trained across all of those different areas, because you're right every day, we do deal with children who are deaf, who are blind, who are in wheelchairs, who are non verbal, who are on the autism spectrum, but all of those things. So we have to have teams trained. Our team is trained to understand how they can deliver an exceptional experience to those children, as well as children who don't have those differences. So   Michael Hingson ** 50:56 clearly you have a we got to get it done. Got a really positive attitude to get things done. Where did you learn that attitude? Because that's a very positive thing that I think more companies and more people in general ought to learn. The whole concept of, we're going to get it done no matter what it you know, I don't want to say no matter what it takes, but we're going to get it done, and we're very positive about that. Yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 51:25 I'm not sure that I learned it, but I think that there are people in life who you see that way. I always, I always jokingly call it waiters with their heads up, because, you know, you see when you're in a restaurant often, there's those people who walk past your table and don't pick up the dirty plates, who aren't looking for things to do. And then there are those other ones who you can see are going from table to table, doing stuff everywhere. And I always say they're the people I want to employ, the waiters with their heads up. So I think it's an attitude you have in life. And you can either kind of say, well, that's a challenge, and that's difficult, but how can I get that done? Or you can say, well, that's difficult. I just won't do that anymore. And and, you know, we need people who want to get stuff done and who always have a pot and having a positive attitude just makes you feel so much better than dwelling in the negative. And you know, I hate people who are always who those negative Nellies or nets or whoever they are, and they bring you down. So positivity is something that I think helps all of us every day. And why wouldn't you choose to be positive? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 52:37 and it is a choice. And the reality is that no matter what goes on, I think we can choose to be positive. One of the things that I've been saying for many years, that I learned because of the World Trade Center, basically, is don't worry about what you can control. Focus on what you can let the rest take care of itself. We're so worried about every little old thing in the world that we don't tend to be positive about anything, and that doesn't help any of us. No,   Louise Baxter ** 53:07 I think that being positive is so incredibly important. It makes you feel better and happier, makes everybody around you feel better and happier. So why wouldn't you do it? And I actually use this at Starlight too, because sometimes team members like you reach a point in your in your work life, and I did. I left Starlight because I needed a new challenge, and Starlight didn't have that challenge for me. So why hang around and become that disgruntled person in the corner who's just trying to pull everybody else into their negative little corner and finds fault with everything the organization does. Why would you stay? You know, and if you leave in that instance, you go to somewhere where you can contribute, and you feel great. You're doing a great job. The organization gets someone into your role who really wants to be there, and all that negativity stops. So in positive psychology, the end game is flourishing. And so I jokingly say at my team all the time, if you don't want to be here anymore, if you're not feeling challenged, please go flourish somewhere else. Don't stay here and become that negative person who tries to bring everyone into their negative corner. It's just not good for you or anybody else. So, yeah. So, so the Go flourish somewhere else is a bit of a joke that people say they're going to have printed on my coffee mug at some stage.   Michael Hingson ** 54:30 Well, you went away, but you also came back. That's   Louise Baxter ** 54:34 right, that's right. And so I went away because I needed a new challenge at that stage. And that challenge, potentially, was the CEO role that it wasn't available then. So I went and I did something else that I loved. And then, you know, the board came back to me some time later and said, Would you come back as CEO now? And I said, Yes. So there you go. And then I'd had a different experience, which actually helped. Me to be a better CEO. So as you say, if you're always moving forward, if you don't get hung up about things, and if you choose positivity, that really can set you up for a much better life. What   Michael Hingson ** 55:13 are some of the challenges that Starlight is facing in Australia today?   Louise Baxter ** 55:19 I think that for us it's a nice challenge, because as clinicians recognize the power of positive psychology and the power of the mind in improving health outcomes, they're very creative, and they're coming up with more and more ideas as to how star lack could be used, but we can only deliver if we increase our funding. And obviously, I think globally, communities are under pressure financially, and so those things kind of don't work together. And that's that's a challenge for us. I think we live in a world of increasing complexity and compliance and and we need to within that, ensure we meet the requirements and the criteria, but we do it in the simplest possible way, because simplicity is better for your mental health. It's more effective and efficient. And so sometimes within the the complexity of compliance, people are on making things even more bureaucratic than they need to. So really keeping things simple, I think, is is important against the backdrop of what's happening. And the exciting thing is we work in the sector of health care. And health care is always changing, always improving and and that's a great thing to be part of. What   Michael Hingson ** 56:48 do you think are well, what would you tell somebody from, let's say, one of your former jobs in marketing and so on, what kind of advice would you give them based on what you now know as being the CEO of starlight, for, my gosh, what? For 15 years, 14 almost? Well, 15 years, yes, almost 16 years. Yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 57:10 I think that. I think people have to be true to themselves. You know, you have to be authentic. Choose positivity is something that I would always give advice around, because, as you said, it is a choice, and I fail to understand why everyone, anyone would choose the negative, yeah, side of that equation and really focus on getting stuff done. So never sit back and be lazy. Always be working to be that, that person who thinks about themselves others and cares and gets it done,   Michael Hingson ** 57:55 yeah, we we spend way too much time, because I think we're taught so much to be negative when we don't get taught nearly as much about being as positive as we can be. I know that my parents were always encouraging to me and my brother. I'm not sure my brother always got it quite as much as I did in terms of understanding it, but we were, we were taught that positivity was a choice. We were taught that being innovative and moving forward was a choice. And we also were encouraged to make that the choice that we made too, which is part of the issue, yeah,   Louise Baxter ** 58:37 excellent. And the other thing is, I would say, Do not be a perfectionist. I'm an anti perfectionist. Yeah, I agree. It gets you nowhere. Doesn't exist. And you know, especially in this day, where we can move, and we're very agile, kind of, I say 70% out, because if you say 70% and out, it means people will probably go to 80 or 90% but those people who, if anyone in a in an interview, proudly tells me they're perfectionist, they're gone because all they do is drive themselves and everyone around them crazy. So I don't want to have them in the organization. It   Michael Hingson ** 59:17 seems to me that the thing to say is that I will always do the best that I can do, and I will always give at least 100%   Louise Baxter ** 59:25 Absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 59:28 Yeah, perfection is something I don't think most of us understand anyway, but if we give it our best, probably we'll achieve perfection, in a sense,   Louise Baxter ** 59:37 yeah, and get it done and get it out, get it happening, right? Because the thing is, if it's not, if it's, you know, if it's not, if it's not perfect, you get it out and you get to use it, and you learn so much more. So you got actually a better shot at getting it towards it. You can tweak it after,   Michael Hingson ** 59:55 yeah, well, well, market, well. And what you do. Do is you do the best that you can do, but you're if you're wise and good leaders. Know this. You also work with a team, and sometimes somebody else on the team can take the lead and enhance what you're doing, which is always a good thing.   Louise Baxter ** 1:00:15 Absolutely, you've got to have way smarter people all around you? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:22 I don't think there's anything wrong with having smarter people around you. Your your smarts is in bringing the team together.   Louise Baxter ** 1:00:29 Yes, that's right. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:33 what can you think other regions and countries learn from the challenges that you're facing?   Louise Baxter ** 1:00:40 I think we have, I think the world is so consistent in this day and age more than it's kind of ever been. You know, when you travel, you know, you seek out those places where we're different. Of course, we're different, but there's a lot more that's the same in this day and age than there ever has been and, and, you know, in some instances, I think that's quite sad, yeah, but there's much more consistency. So I think that there's, and there's always something that we can learn from each other, always. And that's what I look for. I'm excited by up learning things and you know, and and something that doesn't go according to plan is fabulous, because you learn so much more from that than something that just smoothly goes along and does everything you thought it would do.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:35 Nothing wrong with learning from things that don't go well. I don't like the term failure and even mistakes, I'm not a great fan of but I think that what happens is that things don't always go as we plan. And the real question is, what do we learn from it? Absolutely which is, which is so cool? Well, Louise, this has been absolutely fun to be able to spend all this time with you. Now it's 10 in the morning where you are, so we should let you go do other things and get something done today. But I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you who are listening for being a part of our podcast today. I'd love to hear your thoughts about what Louise had to say, and I hope that you will communicate with her. And that's a good point. Louise, how can people reach out to you if they'd like to talk with you and maybe learn more from you, and what you have to say, I'm   Louise Baxter ** 1:02:27 on LinkedIn. So if, if those listening are on LinkedIn, you can find me. Louise Baxter, Starlight, Children's Foundation, Australia and or you can go to starlight.org.au, we if you're looking for us, our website, and you'll find me through that as well. Cool.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:47 Well, I hope people will reach out. And if you'd like to reach out to me, and I hope you will, you may email me at Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, and you can also, of course, go to our podcast page, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, you can listen to all of our podcasts there. You can reach out to me. There lots of things you can do on the web. It's an amazing thing to be able to do things on the web. I also would really appreciate it if when you are thinking about us, if you'll give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to us or watching us, we really appreciate your ratings and your comments. So please do that. If you know of anyone who you think might be a good guest, and Louise, you as well. If you can think of anybody else who we ought to have on unstoppable mindset, would definitely appreciate you introducing us. We're always looking to have more people to come on and tell their stories and talk about what they do. That's the best way to learn, is learning by listening to other people and them telling their stories. So hopefully you'll all do that and again, Louise, I want to thank you for being here.

Our guest this time, Kane Brolin, will quickly and gladly tell you that as a blind person born in Iowa in 1965 he was mightily blessed to be born in that state as it had the best programs for blind people in the nation. Kane was born prematurely and, because of being given too much oxygen he became blind due to a condition known as retinopathy O. Prematurity. In fact I am blind due to the same circumstance. As it turns out, Kane and I share a great many life experiences especially because of the attitudes of our parents who all thought we could do whatever we put our minds to doing. Kane attended public school and then went to Iowa State University. He wanted to be a DJ and had a bit of an opportunity to live his dream. However, jobs were scarce and eventually he decided to go back to school at Northwestern University in Illinois. He formed his own financial and investment company which has been in business since 2002. He is a certified financial planner and has earned the Chartered Special Needs Consultant® designation.   We talk quite a bit about financial matters and he gives some sage advice about what people may realize are good investment ideas. He talks about investing in the stock market and urges investing for the long term. I leave it to him to discuss this in more depth.   Kane is quite committed to “pay it forward” insofar as dealing with blind people is concerned. He is currently the president of the National Federation of the Blind of Indiana. He also serves as a member of the Board of Directors for Penny Forward, Inc., a not-for-profit founded and run by blind people which strives to build a diverse and aspirationally-focused community of blind people who help one another achieve financial fitness, gainful employment, and overall fulfilment in life.   I find Kane quite inspirational and I hope you will do so as well. He has much to offer and he provided many good life lessons not only about financial matters, but also about blindness and blind people.       About the Guest:   Born in 1965, Kane Brolin spent his formative years in the state of Iowa and later went on to earn a Master's degree from the JL Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois, which is near Chicago.  Since the year 2002, he has owned and operated a financial planning and investment management business based in Mishawaka, Indiana, located not far from The University of Notre Dame.  Over the years, he has become a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ Professional and has earned the Chartered Special Needs Consultant® designation.  When doing business with his clients, securities and Advisory Services are offered through Commonwealth Financial Network, a Registered Investment Advisor which is a Member of FINRA and SIPC,.   Having been totally blind for all his life, Kane feels indebted to many people who selflessly gave of their time, talent, and resources to help him acquire the education, skills, and confidence that enable him to lead a busy and productive life in service to others.  Many of those who made the biggest impact when Kane was growing up, also happened to be members of the National Federation of the Blind.  So after getting established on his current career path, he increasingly felt the impulse to give back to the organized blind movement which had served his needs from an early age.   Kane co-founded the Michiana Chapter in the National Federation of the Blind in 2012 and subsequently was elected to serve a two-year term as president of the Indiana State Affiliate of the NFB in October, 2022.  He is thankful for the early introduction of Braille, as well as for the consistent drumbeat from parents, peers, and professors which set and reinforced continuously high expectations.     In addition to his work with the NFB, Kane serves as a member of the Board of Directors for Penny Forward, Inc., a not-for-profit founded and run by blind people which strives to build a diverse and aspirationally-focused community of blind people who help one another achieve financial fitness, gainful employment, and overall fulfilment in life.   Kane lives in Mishawaka with Danika, his wife of 27 years, and their four children.  Kane and Danika were active foster parents for 11 years.  The Brolin family have been committed to numerous civic organizations; they and their family are active in their place of worship.  Giving back to the world is a continuously high priority.  They endeavor to teach their children by example, and they impart to them the wisdom of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.: “You can all be great, because you can all serve.”   Ways to connect with Rob:   BrolinWealth.com LinkedIn public profile nfb-in.org pennyforward.com   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi, everyone. I am your host, Michael Hingson, or you can call me Mike. It's okay. And this is unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity in the unexpected. Meet today. We're going to do a little bit of all. We're inclusive because my guest Kane Brolin, or if you're from Sweden, it's Brolin, and it's pronounced Brolin, not Brolin, but Kane bralin, or broline, is in Indiana, and Kane also happens to be blind, and has been blind his entire life. We'll get into that. He is very much involved in investing and dealing with money matters that I'm interested to get a chance to really chat about it's always fun to talk to people about how they're helping people with finances and money and getting insights. And I'm sure that he has some to to offer. So we'll get to that. Kane also happens to be the president of the National Federation of the Blind of Indiana, and so that keeps him busy, so he deals with money, and he's a politician to boot. So what else can you ask for? I pick on Kane by doing that, but nevertheless, Kane, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Thank   Kane Brolin ** 02:34 you. And there are there are times when the politics and the money issues can be a dream. There are other times it can be an absolute nightmare, either one, either one or both and and the thing that ties those together in common ground is that I walk in in the morning, and sometimes they have no idea what I'm about to walk into. So it does make for an adventure. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:57 the Fed has lowered interest rates. What do you think about that?   Kane Brolin ** 03:01 Well, there is some ramification for what happens in the consumer marketplace. The main thing that I've been hearing today is that even with those lowering of short term interest rates, you're seeing some long term interest rates go down the mortgage rates, especially, and those two are not necessarily always related. You don't always see the long term interest rates that the market determines through supply and demand. They don't always go in sync with the short term baseline rate that the Federal Reserve banking system sets, but in this particular case, they are, and what I've been reading this morning is that that may be at least good news in the short run for consumers, because they'll be paying Lower interest for new mortgages and also perhaps lower credit card rates or credit card payments. Of course, the downside is that if one invests and is lending money instead of borrowing it, that means sometimes lower rates of income that you can get from things like a certificate of deposit or an annuity. So there's always two sides of the same coin, and then it depends on which side you happen to be looking at. At the moment, right now, the market seems to like this convergence of interest rate activities, and the stock market has generally been up today. So by the time people hear this, that won't matter because it's a whole different day, but, but right now, the early returns coming in are pretty good for the the common human being out there trying to just manage their money.   Michael Hingson ** 04:54 Well, that's not really surprising, in a sense, because rates have been high for a while. Yeah, and things have been tough. So it's not surprising that people have made, and I would put it this way, to a degree, the marketing decision to respond favorably to the rates going down, and I know there's been a lot of pressure for the thread to lower its rate, and so they did. And I think that a lot of different entities kind of had to respond in a reasonably positive way, because they kept saying that it's time that the rates go down. So they had to respond. So we'll see how it it all goes. I   Kane Brolin ** 05:33 think, you know, and there's an issue I think that's salient to people with disabilities, blind people, included, if it's less expensive for the consumer to borrow money, it should follow that in the coming weeks, it should be less expensive for businesses to borrow money if they need some, and they may be more inclined to open up more jobs to people or to not shrink the jobs or The hiring that they have done by laying people off so and that's what I was just about. No one is a recession, and so it may mean that there are openings, there's room in the job market for more of us, because the thing I'm most passionate about in this whole game of helping blind people is getting us access to money and getting us access to gainful permanent work.   Michael Hingson ** 06:24 And that's what I was actually going to going to talk about, or not talk about a long time, but, but mention was that the real test will be how it affects the job market and the unemployment rate and so on. And I hope that that that will go down. I know it's been sort of ticking up a little bit, although in reality, of course, for persons with disabilities, the unemployment rate is a whole lot higher than around 4% so it'll be interesting to see how all that goes all the way around. But even just the national unemployment rate, I would hope that if that has been an excuse because the rates have been high, that now we'll see that start to drop, and, you know, so we'll see. But I think it's a it's going to be one of those waiting games to see how the world responds. Of course, we have a whole political thing going on with the election and I'm sure that some people on the political side like the the drop better than people on the other side do, but again, we'll see how it all goes. So it's it makes life fun. Well, tell me a little bit about you, if you would, sort of maybe the early cane growing up and all that sort of stuff. You were born, according to your bio, back in 1965 so I was 15 at the time, so I remember the year. So you've, you've been around a little while, though, however, so tell us a little bit about the early cane.   Kane Brolin ** 07:54 Yeah, I don't remember too many years, or any years, really, prior to about maybe 1971 or 72 with any degree of real clarity. You know, I would say that my early years were a mixed bag, but in the main they were good, of course, being immediately confronted with rLf, or retinopathy of prematurity, as they call it these days, and being blind from the very beginning, most people would probably out there consider it a tragedy. But if I if I knew that it was my fate to be a blind person, which I suppose it is, then I won the lottery as being a blind person, I think. And that might be a controversial statement, but the truth is that there is no place in the United States, and probably no place in the world that would have been better for me to grow up in in the late 1960s and 1970s than in Iowa, because now there was, there was no other blindness in my family. It's not hereditary. My parents had no idea how to deal with it in the very beginning.   Michael Hingson ** 09:12 Were you born prematurely? I was, yeah, which is why I weigh you have that   Kane Brolin ** 09:16 something like two pounds, 10 ounces at birth. So there is a part of me that realizes that I am very fortunate to be alive, and I'm very fortunate that my brain has functioned pretty well for most of my life. You can't always count on that either, you know, and when you get when you get older, my my father was a very bright person, and yet he lived during the last 10 years of his life, he struggled with dementia and some other problems so but I can say that I've had a good run so far, and you know what they what they didn't know. At least my parents and others in my family knew what they didn't know. And I. But when you don't know what you don't know, you flounder and and settle for almost anything, including fear. But when you know what you don't know, then you understand you need to research things. And I happened to be in a state that had been graced by the presence of Dr Kenneth Jernigan, principally. And of course, other people that I had no idea who they were at that time. You know, folks like James gaschell and James on VIG right, and and others. I think Joanne Wilson came out of that mix. I didn't know her either, but I've read about all these people in the past, but, but first and foremost, my parents found out that Dr Jernigan was number one, very brilliant. Number two did not settle for low expectations. And number three had the advantage of being both the head of the Iowa Commission for the Blind, which was a state sanctioned Agency, and the National Federation of the Blind, which is, or, you know, has been for most of the last 84 years, the leading advocacy organization and civil rights organization of the Blind in in the United States. Now, I'm not here to make a political point about that, but in Iowa, they were definitely more well known than anyone was, and because he could pull strings which influence things like educational budgets, and he also had very much a civil rights mindset and an aggressive mindset of going forward and breaking down barriers, this is a rare combo platter of traits and possibilities that I very much benefited from. And when I say that, I mean that from the very beginning, at five or six years old, I had Braille. I didn't have Braille in the beginning, but, but my parents did and and my dad actually knew enough about it to construct a set of blocks with print lettering on one side, Braille on the other side. And so not only did I have a really good teacher in my first couple of years of public school education named Doris Willoughby, some may be familiar with her. I know Doris will rip she has passed on in the past couple years, but she made a great impact in in my life, and a very deep impact in others lives too. But because of her influence and like minded people, I had access to books. I had access to mostly mainstreamed integrated education, where I was in the classroom with other sighted students, except for certain parts of certain days, you know, I had access to a great big wall mounted tactile map that was like a puzzle. And I understand Dr Jernigan designed that one too, where I could actually feel and take apart the states of the Union. And so I could tell where Oklahoma was, where Massachusetts was, where Indiana is. I could tell the shapes of the various states. I thought it was kind of curious that California, where you are from, Michael, is shaped very much like a banana, or at least that's what occurred to me at that time. I had recorded books. I had talking books. And you know, while there are things I did not get out of a mainstream public education that I kind of wish I had gotten out of it, from a social standpoint, from an athletic standpoint, the academics were on point, and I had access to resources, and I kind of just was living in a in a dream world, in a way, because even through my college days, I thought, Well, gee, it's great that we have all this now. Why is there all this blind civil rights stuff going on now? Because this was solved from the beginning of my childhood. Little did I realize that that is not the case in most other parts of the country or the world, but I got what I needed to at least have a shot on goal at success, and I'm very grateful for that, and it's one of the reasons that I have chosen to dedicate a portion of my life, during my prime working years, even to the National Federation of the Blind, because I want to pay this forward and help out some people that may not have had all the advantages that I had, even, even in the bygone days that I was growing up,   Michael Hingson ** 14:23 sure? So tell me, because I went through some of the same experiences you did in terms of being born premature and becoming blind due to rLf, which stands for retro enteral fibroplasia. And if people want to know how to spell that, they can go by thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog, and the triumph of trust at ground zero. And you can learn how to spell it there, because I don't remember how to spell it. We put it in the book, but that's what I remember. But so when you be when it was discovered that you were blind, how did your parents handle that? What did they say? Right? What did the doctors say to them? Because my experience was and, you know, of course, I didn't know it at the time, but my parents told me later that the doctor said, send him off to a home because he could never amount to anything, because no blind child could ever contribute to society. What was, if, from your understanding from your parents, what was what happened to you? If any   Kane Brolin ** 15:21 doctor ever said that to them? They never told me about it. What I what I do know is that there is an eye doctor that was a part of their lives, who I saw a couple of times, probably in my childhood, who was a a female optometrist or maybe an ophthalmologist in the area, and they really had a lot of respect for her. I never felt marginalized or dismissed. Yeah, as a part of my childhood, part of it is that I don't think my parents would have tolerated that, and my   Michael Hingson ** 15:55 parents didn't, either my parents and my parents didn't either they said, No, you're wrong. He can grow up to do whatever he wants, and we're going we're going to give him that opportunity. And they brought me up that way, which is, of course, part of what led to my psyche being what it is. And I too, believe in paying it forward and doing work to try to educate people about blindness and so on, and supporting and and I've been involved with the National Federation of the Blind since 1972 so it's been a while. Yeah, I would say,   Kane Brolin ** 16:27 I know I remember. I have a very, very fuzzy memory of being four, maybe five years old, and I know that they considered putting me into the Iowa Braille and sight saving School, which was a school for the blind in Iowa no longer exists, by the way, but they did consider it and decided against it. I don't think they wanted me to just go off to boarding school I was five. I know that that does work for some people, and I know that in later years, I've read that in some cases, even Dr Jernigan believed that schools for the blind were better, especially in places where there wasn't a truly sincere effort by public school systems to integrate and set high expectations for blind students. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 17:13 of course, here in California, for example, in the 50s and so on, as the California School for the Blind we had and and earlier, Dr Newell Perry, among others, who was a blind mathematician. Of course, Dr tembrech was was out here, and there were values and reasons why the schools could make a difference. My parents were pushed really hard by my elementary school principal to send me off to that school, and I actually remember hearing shouting matches between them, because parents said ah and and I didn't go to the school. I don't know what it was like by the time we moved out here and we were putting me in kindergarten, first and second grade. So like in 5657 I'm not sure what the school was like, but my parents didn't want me to not have a real home environment. So, you know,   Kane Brolin ** 18:12 yeah, and so, you know, I remember my childhood is, well, it wasn't like everybody else's childhood. One of the the issues happened to be that my the neighborhood that my family lived in, did not have a lot of kids in it that were my age for most of the time I was there, the schools in the early to mid 70s at least that admitted blind students in the town that I grew up in, which was Cedar Rapids, Iowa, there was only one set of schools on the opposite side of town where they were sending blind kids for those resources. Now that later changed and the decision was made. I guess I made the decision to stay out there. So one of the differences was that I was bussed from the southeast side of town to the southwest side of town. So there were kids I got to know through school, but I didn't have any kind of social life with most of them, with a couple different exceptions, through my childhood. So it was a lot of academics, it wasn't a lot of play time, right? That certainly informed how I grew up, and it's made me a little bit struggle to understand and and be a really sensitive, playful, patient type parent, because my my kids and I'll, we'll go there when we get there, but my, my children, I have four, they're all still in home right now, are very normal kind of rambunctious kids that enjoy and struggle with the same things that any other kids do. They are all sighted, but, but my parents were. Was pretty strict. They set high expectations, but some of that was high expectations for behavior as well. So I really wasn't ramming around and causing trouble and getting into mischief and, you know, getting on my bike and riding for miles outside the way kids did in the 70s. So there there were limitations in my childhood, but, but, you know, my parents, too, expected me to utilize and to have the resources that would lead me to be anything I wanted to be. And I honestly think that if I had said, I want to be the President of the United States, they would not have ruled it out. Now, the only thing I've really been president of is several different civic organizations and the Indiana branch of the NFB. You know, that's something not everyone does. I've interviewed a governor before when I was a journalism student. That was fun, and I've met congress people, but they did not set the limitations. You know, sometimes maybe I did, but but they didn't. And so I'm really grateful for that, that as long as I knew what I wanted, they made sure that I had the tools and access to whatever training they knew about that could help me to   Michael Hingson ** 21:18 get there. So you you went through school. And I think our our younger lives were fairly similar, because I also, when I went into fourth grade, and we finally had a resource teacher in the area, I was bused to the other side of town for that. And all of that kind of came together when I started high school, because everyone in Palmdale went to the same high school, so anyone I knew prior to going across town, I got to know again, and still knew as as friends growing up, but we all went to high school together. But you know, I hear exactly what you're saying, and my parents did not impose limitations either, and I'm very blessed for that. But you went through school and then you went to college. Tell me about college.   Kane Brolin ** 22:19 It was a fun experience. Glad that I went through it. I attended Iowa State University for my bachelor's degree. I know that you've never, ever heard this before, but I really dreamed about being a radio personality. And I say that sarcastically. It's what I wanted to be, because I had a cousin that was in the business. But of course, since then, as I've gotten more into blind blindness culture and met many other people that I never knew growing up, I know that that the media and especially radio as a gift, is really fascinating to many of us, and a lot of us have had rotations in different parts of that, especially with the advent of the internet, but this was back during the 70s and 80s, and what I wanted to be at first was a DJ. Used to pretend to be one at home all the time and then, but I also knew where the library was, and I developed a great love of books and information and data. To some degree, I wasn't really a math guy, more of a word guy, but I then developed a deep interest in journalism and investigation and research, and so by the middle to late 80s, what I wanted to be was, let's just call it the next Peter Jennings, if one can remember who that is, right. And I'm sure that there are probably, you know, facsimiles of him today,   Michael Hingson ** 23:50 but it's hard to be a facsimile of Peter Jennings. But yeah, he really is,   Kane Brolin ** 23:55 and that he was great and but you know the disadvantage, the advantage and the disadvantage of going to Iowa State University. I Why did I go there? Because any of my few relatives that had gone to college, including my dad, had had gone there. My dad was very loyal to his alma mater, and he told both myself and my sister, who is a very different person and not blind at all. If it was good enough for me, it's good enough for you, and if you want me to pay for it, here's where you're going to go. Now, Iowa State is mostly an engineering and agricultural school. It's a land grant institution. And I know that land grant institutions are a little controversial in today's climate where there is more of an emphasis on diversity, equity, inclusion and making up for some past societal wrongs, but these are deeply respected institutions that mainly turned out people that ended up well, doing things like building. Bridges and being mechanical engineers and developing new seed corn hybrids and things of this nature. It did have a telecommunicative arts program, and I was in it, but there were very few of us in it, and I did get a chance to get my hands on the equipment. I was a broadcaster, first on a student radio station at Iowa State called K usr. Then I actually did work for pay, sort of for a number of years for w, O I am and FM, which were flagship stations of what we would now call the the NPR network. You know, these were around since the 20s, and I actually did work for them. I was on air a little bit. I ran the control board a lot, and I worked for those two stations on a part time basis, probably about a three quarter time basis, for several years after leaving college, and it was really a student job, but I had trouble finding any other more meaningful work in the industry. What I gradually came to find out is that I loved radio, but radio really didn't love me, and I wasn't really thinking strategically. At that time, I graduated in 1988 it is that very same year that a little known figure from Kansas City named Rush Limbaugh hit the American airwaves like a ton of bricks. And because of him and some other people like him, all of a sudden, local stations realized that they could drop their news and information programming, stop hiring so many people, and because Mr. Limbaugh was as popular as he was, they could basically run a lot of satellite based programming, have somebody sort of halfway monitor the board and hire somebody else to program computer systems that would put automated commercial breaks on and things like this, and they wouldn't really have to produce local content. We also saw the elimination of the equal time standard and the Fairness Doctrine, which required local stations to put on a variety of viewpoints and air programming every week that was in the public interest, that didn't necessarily have commercial value. And so the things I wanted to do became a lot harder to do, because by the time I was ready to get hired to do them, not a lot of radio stations were hiring people to do it, even in the even in the television world, and so strategically, I was buying into a sinking market, and That wasn't a great place to be at that time. And so with some reluctance, after a lot of fruitless job searching, I chose another path, not necessarily knowing where that path would lead. And so the last time I ever got paid to run a shift for a radio station was in late June of 1993 I've been a guest on a couple of different shows and some podcasts like this one. I greatly enjoy it. I've even thought about doing some internet broadcasting. I don't have the time, really to do that now, but, but, and I miss it, but I have found out there are ways of diverting the skill sets I have to another path.   Michael Hingson ** 28:25 And what path did you choose?   Kane Brolin ** 28:28 Initially, the path I chose was graduate school. I was fortunate enough to have gotten good enough grades that I was able to get approved by a number of different business schools. You know, the first path I really wanted to do is be a Foreign Service Officer for the diplomatic corps. I applied for the US Department of State. And I had some hopes in doing that, because around 1990 a gentleman named Rami Rabbi. You may know him, I do did became the first blind person ever to be a Foreign Service Officer. Now, he had advantages. He had traveled the world. I had traveled to Mexico and Costa Rica, and I spoke Spanish, and I was pretty fluent, but he was a little bit more qualified in different ways that they were looking for. So I wanted some international experience. I applied for the Peace Corps, and I had no real shot at that. What they were looking for was something very different from what I was then. But I did apply to the Foreign Service, and I made it almost all the way down the hiring process. I made the final 3% cut among the class they were looking at in 1990 and 91 I went to Virginia to, I think Alexandria and I sat for the last round of interviews and simulations that they did. Unfortunately, I was in the top 3% and they wanted the top 1% so I had a really fun few days out there at the government's expense. But I also found that I was not going to be hired to be the second blind. Foreign Service officer. I later found out that Mr. Robbie had to actually file a lawsuit and win that lawsuit to get his opportunity. So I know that the system were not exactly bought in to blame people doing this on a regular basis. I know there's others that have gotten there since that, and I've met one of them, but but that that wasn't for me, but they also said what I really needed was more management experience. I'd never done anything in management, so I decided to go to management school or business school as graduate school. I got accepted by a few different places. I chose Northwestern University in Chicago. My sister had gone through that program. I guess that's maybe one of the reasons I selected that one. I could have gone to a couple of others that also had accepted me, and sometimes I wonder what would have happened had I done that. But I did spend two years in Chicago land met some of the most impressive people that I've ever met in my life. Figured out train systems and pace bus systems, and went all over the place and had friends in the city, not just in the school. I made the most of that time, and that's what I did from 1993 to 1995 unfortunately, I found out you can get a an MBA or a master of management, but they still, still weren't hiring a lot of blind people out there. And so while my associates were getting jobs at McKinsey and Company, and Booz Allen Hamilton, as it was known at that time, and they were working for Bank of America, doing all kinds of interesting things and and also brand management companies like disco and Kellogg and all that. I got all of one job offer coming out of one of the top 5b schools in the country, and I took that job offer, which led me to Midland, Michigan, where I knew nobody at that time, but I spent about three and a half years doing various types of business research for the Dow Chemical Company, and that did not last as a career, but I got a chance to make the first real money I had ever earned. At that time through another connection that wasn't related to Dow, I happened to meet the woman that I eventually married and am with now, and have had four kids with, and so that was a whole different kettle of fish. But at the end of 98 I was downsized, along with several others in my department, and we decided at that time that entrepreneurship was probably not a bad way to go, or, you know, something that wasn't just strictly speaking corporate. In 2000 I landed in the South Bend, Indiana area, which is where she is from. I had never lived here before. This is where I am now. And while struggling to find a place here, I realized that I could get hired on as what is called a financial advisor. I had no idea what that was. Well, you know, with a business degree, I could probably be a credible hire as a financial advisor. Little did I know that that involved tele sales. In the very beginning, never thought I was a salesperson either. Since then, I have found out that I have more selling ability than I had ever thought that I might and that that is an honorable profession if you're convincing people to do what is right for themselves. And so I've found that over the years, being what I am enables me to, well, in a way, keep my own hours. We've chosen the small business, sort of independent contracting route, rather than the employee channel, working for a bank or for somebody else's brokerage. I get to be a researcher, I get to be a public speaker now and then, and I get to help people problem solve, which is something I would not have had a chance to do on the radio. And when someone comes up to you, as a few people have and have, said, you know, thank you for making it possible for me to retire and to do what I want to do, and to spend time with grandkids and to live where I want to live. You know, that's a that's definitely a hit. That's a great feeling to have someone say, Thank you for helping me to do and to be what I didn't know I could do or be. So   Michael Hingson ** 34:38 investing isn't what you had originally planned to do with your life. So I can't say that it was necessarily a lifelong goal from the beginning, but you evolved into it, and it seems to be going pretty well for you.   Kane Brolin ** 34:51 Well, yeah, I think it has. It's investing means different things to different. People, to some clients, the goal is, I just don't want to lose money. Please put me in something that earns a little bit, but I don't want the chance for anything I'm in to go down for others. What investing means is, I want to be more aggressive. I want to build what I have. What do you think about this or that opportunity? What stock should I be in? Because I really want to grab onto an opportunity and seize the day and have as much as I can have at the end of the day. And you know, For still others, it means, it means giving. It means building something up so I can pass it along, either to a charity, to the kids, to the grandkids, to to my religious institution of choice, whatever that is. So I find that investing is not just investing, the the at the root, at the heart of investing, the heartbeat of it, is really the people that I serve. And you know, I was told early on, hey, you don't have a practice. All you're doing is practicing, unless you have people to be in front of. And so in my mind, you know, and I'm not that much of a quantitative guy. I'm I'm not the person out there working as an actuary for Symmetra Life Insurance Company figuring out how much money has to go in and how much it must earn to be able to give 50,000 people the payouts they want from an annuity till the end of their projected lifespans. That's that's not where I am. I'm not designing a mutual fund that's more like what a certified financial analyst would be. I am a Certified Financial Planner practitioner, and what a CFP does is takes numbers that you see and translates those into action steps that I can explain in plain English terms to a client I'm in front of that can give that individual person, family or small business the kinds of outcomes that they want. So I'm on the retail end of the food chain, and my job is to try to take the numbers that others are generating and boil that down into something that is digestible to the common man and woman, that allows them to, we hope, live the way they want. So   Michael Hingson ** 37:29 I gather from listening to you though, that you enjoy what you do.   Kane Brolin ** 37:36 I do particularly when it works.   Michael Hingson ** 37:39 Well, there's times.   Kane Brolin ** 37:40 There are times it gets a little tricky. 2001 2002 I know that you had a very personal experience that vaulted you, Michael, into this, into the realm of the famous, or the Almost Famous, on 911 I remember what 911 was like as a very small time retail investment person working out of a field office. I was somebody's employee at that point. I was working for American Express financial advisors, and I remember my life was never in danger in 911 but there were a lot of clients that thought their money and their data were in danger, and then the country that the country itself, might even be in danger. And so I morphed during that week from being a telemarketing person trying to set appointments with people I'd never met to being a person who was trying to dole out comfort and a feeling of security and solace to people I had met who the few that I was managing their accounts at that time, calling them and saying, You know what, your money and your data are safe. I'm here. The company that you have your stuff invested with is based in Minneapolis. It's not based in the Twin Towers, the markets are shut down. There will be volatility, but you're not crashing today, just so   Michael Hingson ** 39:08 the other the other side of it, the other side of that, was that during that week after September 11, there were a lot of people who were working and moving, literally Heaven and Earth, if you will, to bring Wall Street back. And I know I'm working with some of those companies and providing them with the backup equipment, or not so much at the time, backup equipment, but the equipment that would be able to read existing tape backups and put that back on computers. And I know, I think it was Morgan Stanley had found an office space sometime during the week after September 11. Then, as they describe it, it was the building with a floor the size of a foot. Football field, and they scrounged and scavenged and got their providers of equipment, like IBM to provide them with computers, even taking them from IBM employees desks to provide enough equipment to be able to set up what was the equivalent to the trading floor that had been in the world trade center that was destroyed on September 11, and literally from Friday afternoon that would have been the 14th to the 16th in 36 hours. They not only reconstructed physically what the trading floor was but because of what we provided them with, they were able to completely reconstruct what everything looked like on their computers. So when Wall Street reopened on the 17th, everything was like it was when everything shut down on the 11th now, I think there's some blessings to the fact that the towers were struck before Wall Street opened. I don't know how much easier that made it maybe some, but the reality is that data is backed up regularly, so they would have been able to to survive, but the fact that the markets hadn't opened in the US certainly had to help. But by Monday, the 17th, they brought Wall Street back, just as if nothing had happened. It was a monumental feat to be able to do that. That is a story   Kane Brolin ** 41:37 that I would love to read, because I've never heard that story before, and that makes me feel very unintelligent. Michael, you know, I can't even imagine the logistics and the people and just even the imagination that it would take to reconstruct that. I'm sure it was 1000s. I'm sure it was 1000s of people. And I'm sure that probably that's something that somebody had thought about even before the 911 incident happened. I don't think that was invented out of whole cloth on Friday the 14th, but that's a story that would be a very captivating book, and if no one's written it, then, gosh, would that be a fun thing to research and write.   Michael Hingson ** 42:21 Well, you know, the reality is, the SEC required that all data from financial institutions had to be backed up and kept available off site for seven years. So first of all, the data was all around and that's why I think it was an especially great blessing that the markets hadn't opened, because all the backups from the previous night, and probably from all the not only the futures, but the sales from foreign markets, were pretty much all backed up as well. So everything was backed up. That, of course, was the real key, because getting the hardware, yes, that was a logistical nightmare that they were able to address, getting the computers, getting everything where they needed it. Then companies like ours providing them with the wherewithal to be able to pull the data from the tapes and put it back onto the computers. It had to be quite a feat, but it all worked. And when Wall Street opened, it opened as if nothing had happened, even though some of the the offices were now in completely different places across the river. But it all worked, incredible. Yeah, I was, it was, it was pretty amazing. I knew people from the firms. And of course, we helped them by providing them with equipment. But at the same time, hearing about the story later was was really quite amazing, and and they did a wonderful job to bring all that back. So it was pretty, pretty amazing that that all that occurred. So that was pretty cool all the way. And   Kane Brolin ** 44:00 of course, the other struggle was in 2007 2008 I remember when I would be sitting at my desk and I'm not a day trader, I'm, I'm, I'm a long term investor. That's what most of my clients want. I'm not in there, you know, trading, trading daily options. I'm not doing inverse leveraged products that have to be bought in the morning and then sold in the afternoon under most cases. But I remember sitting at my desk in 2008 when the great recession was going on with the financial crisis happened and and when banks and huge investment banks, brokerage institutions were, in some cases, completely failing, that's a whole other story that was chronicled in books like The Big Short as an example, but I remember sitting at my desk and timing it and watching in a five minute period of time. As the Dow Jones Industrial Average, which was back in in those days, was, was what maybe 6000 or so as a benchmark. It was going up and down by a margin of error of 800 points in five minutes, it would be 400 up one minute, and then 400 down from that level. In other words, an 800 point swing within a five minute period of time. There was one day I went to take a test, because I have continuing education on a pretty regular basis, had to go to a testing center and take a test that lasted maybe three hours. I got back, and I think the market for at least the Dow Jones had dropped by 800 points during the time that I was in the testing center. And that gives you some stomach acid when that sort of thing happens, because even though it it's, you know, things always bounce back, and they always bounce up and down. Clients call and they say, oh my gosh, what happens if I lose it all? Because people really think that they could lose it all. Now, if you're in a mutual fund with 100 different positions, it's very unlikely, right? All of those positions go to zero. What I found out is that when people's money is concerned, it's emotional. Yeah, it's all rational. They're not looking at the empirical data. They're thinking fight or flight, and they really are concerned with what in the world am I going to do if I go to zero? And   Michael Hingson ** 46:38 it's so hard to get people to understand, if you're going to invest in the market, it has to be a long term approach, because if you don't do that, you can, you can disappoint yourself, but the reality is, over the long term, you're going to be okay. And you know now, today, once again, we're seeing the evidence of that with what the Fed did yesterday, lowering by a half a point, and how that's going to affect everything. But even over the last five or six years, so many people have been worried about inflation and worried about so many things, because some of our politicians have just tried to scare us rather than dealing with reality. But the fact of the matter is that it all will work out if we're patient and and allow things to to work. And what we need to do is to try to make wise decisions to minimize, perhaps our risk. But still, things will work out.   Kane Brolin ** 47:43 Yeah, I remember, I think, the Dow Jones Industrial Average, which is what always used to get quoted, at least on the radio and the television. It was somewhere in the somewhere in the 11,000 range, before the 2008 debacle. And it fell to, I think, 6400 right was the low that it reached. Now it's over 41,000   Michael Hingson ** 48:11 closed up above 42 yesterday. I'm not   Kane Brolin ** 48:13 sure it very well may have so you know when you when you really think about it, if you just stayed in and it's more complicated than that. One of course people have with the market is that when the market crashes, they also may need to get their money out for different, unrelated reasons. What if I lost my job as a result of the market crashing? Right? What if? What if there is a need that I have to fulfill and that money has to come out for me to make a house payment. You don't know that. And so that's the unfortunate part, is that a lot of the academic missions don't take into account the real human factor of real people that need to use their money. But if you could stand to hang on and leave it in, it would be worth you know, what would that be like six or seven times more than it was in 2008 but that's not what what clients often do. They they often want to sell out of fear when things are down, and then wait too long to buy back in when the elevator has already made its way quite a ways up, right?   Michael Hingson ** 49:25 I remember once, and I don't remember what the cause was, but Rolls Royce dropped to $3 a share. And there were some people saying, this is the time to buy. It is it's not going to go away. And those who did have done pretty well. Bank   Kane Brolin ** 49:44 of America was $3 a share for quite some time. It was, it was technically a penny stock. This is Bank of America, you know, one of the leading financial institutions in the in the country, which, incidentally, has a very interesting. History. It wasn't born in New York, it was born in the south, right? But, yeah, if you only knew what those trough opportunities were and knew exactly when to buy in and and I'm constantly telling people, look my my goal is, is not so much to figure out what to buy but when to buy in. We're trying to buy low and sell high, and just because something did well last year doesn't mean you have to hang on to it. It might mean we want to trim that position a little bit, take some profit and and pick something that doesn't look as attractive or sexy because of last year's lackluster returns, but maybe this year. It will just due to changing conditions. Financial markets run in cycles. And it's not that some things are inherently good or bad. Some things are in favor now. They were not in favor last year, and they might not be in favor, you know, two years from now, but they are now. So that's the hard part. You're not supposed to really time the market. We can't predict all these things, but that's why you encourage people to diversify and to have some things that are not correlated with each other in terms of doing well or badly at the same time. So you can always sometimes be gaining with in with your left hand, while your right hand is is struggling a bit. Hence,   Michael Hingson ** 51:25 the need for people who are certified financial planners, right? So there you go. So you, you got married, what, 27 years ago, and you married someone who was fully sighted, who probably didn't have a whole lot of exposure to blindness and blind people before. How did all that work out? Obviously, it's worked out because you're still married. But what was it like, and was it ever kind of an uncomfortable situation for you guys?   Kane Brolin ** 51:58 I don't think blindness. Surprisingly enough, I don't think it was super uncomfortable for her. Now, she had not encountered lots of blind people before, maybe not even any before. She met me, but I met her, and this is where I had it easy. She didn't have it easy, but I met her through her family. I knew my wife's name is Danica. I knew her brother before I knew her, because he and I had been buddies. We for a little while. We ended up living in the same town up in Michigan, and it was not here in the South Bend area where she is, but I went home and had a chance to be to tag along as he was doing some some family things and some things with his friends so but, but my wife is a very interesting father. She has a very interesting dad who is no longer with us. May he rest in peace? No, no. Hello. Sorry. My nine year old just made a brief appearance, and she's incorrigible.   Michael Hingson ** 53:00 You wouldn't have it any other way. No, there   Kane Brolin ** 53:03 are days when I would, but I don't. So anyway, the I found out some interesting things raising kids as a blind parent too, but you know, her dad did not see really any kind of limitations when the world around him was racist he really wasn't. When the world around him was ableist. He really didn't. And one of the things he encouraged me to do, they had a little acreage Danika parents did. And he actually asked me one time when it was a leaf blowing or leaf storing season, it was in the fall, lots of oak trees, different things there to drive the garden tractor, as there was a Baleful leaves behind that he was taken to an area where they would eventually be burned up or composted or something. And I did that. He had an old garden tractor with a, you know, his gas powered, and it had pedals and steering wheel, and he would literally run around alongside it, didn't go very fast, and tell me kind of when and where to turn. I'm told that I almost crashed into the pit where the basement of the home was one time, but I didn't. So he was one of these people that like saw virtually no limitations. Encouraged his kids and others to do great things. He didn't have a great feel for people. He would have been an anti politician. He had trouble remembering your name, but if you were a decent person and treated him right, it didn't matter if you were black, purple, green, blind, deaf, whatever. He saw it as an interesting challenge to teach me how to do things. He taught me how to kayak. He taught me how to cross country ski. Back in those days before climate change, we actually got quite a bit of snow in the area where I live, even as early as Thanksgiving to. I'm in November. And so the first couple of winters that we lived here, and we would go to a local park, or, you know, even just out in the in the backyard of where his property was, and, and, and ski, Nordic ski, not downhill ski, really, but it was, it was an amazing exercise. It's an amazing feel to be able to do that, and I have no memory, and I had no relatives that that were in touch with the true Scandinavian heritage, that ancestry.com says that I have, but the act of doing a little bit of Nordic skiing with him gave me a real feel for what some people go through. Because traditionally, skiing was a form of transportation in those countries. In the Larry P you skied to work, you skied to somebody else's house. So, you know, I thought that that was fun and interesting. Now, the last few winters, we haven't gotten enough snow to amount to anything like that, but I do have, I still have a pair of skis. So no, that may be something that we do at some point when given the opportunity, or some other place where we have a bit more of a snow base.   Michael Hingson ** 56:10 Well, I'm sure that some people would be curious to to know this being blind and doing the work that you do, you probably do. Well, you do the same things, but you probably do them in different ways, or have different technologies that you use. What's some of the equipment and kind of technologies that you use to perform your job?   Kane Brolin ** 56:32 Well, you know, I wouldn't say that. I'm cutting edge. I'm sure there are people who do differently and better than I do, but I do most of my work in a PC based environment. It's a Windows based environment at the present time, because the broker dealers and the other firms that I work through, you know, I'm independent, in a way, meaning I pay my own bills and operate out of my own space and have my name of Berlin wealth management as a shingle on my door, so to speak. But you never walk alone in this business. And so I chose, ultimately, a company called the Commonwealth financial network to serve as my investment platform and my source of technology, and my source of what is called compliance, which means, you know, they are the police walking alongside what I do to make sure that I've documented the advice I've given to people, to make sure that that advice is suitable and that I'm operating according to the law and in the best interest of my clients, and not Not taking money from them, or, you know, doing phony baloney things to trade into a stock before I recommend that to somebody else. You know, there's a lot of malfeasance that can happen in this type of industry, but all these securities that I sell and all the advice that I given are done so with the blessing of the Commonwealth Financial Network, which is a member of FINRA and SIPC, I just need to point that out here. But they also provide technology, and most of their technology is designed to work in a Windows environment, and so that's typically what I have used. So I use JAWS.   Michael Hingson ** 58:23 And JAWS is a screen reader that verbalizes what comes across the screen for people who don't know it right, or puts   Kane Brolin ** 58:28 it into Braille, or puts it into Braille in the in the in the early days of my doing the business, many of the programs that we had to use to design an insurance policy or to pick investments, or to even monitor investments were standalone programs that were not based on a web architecture that would be recognizable. And so I was very fortunate that there was money available from the vocational rehab system to bring somebody in from Easter Seals Crossroads here in Indiana, to actually write Jaws script workarounds, that is, that could help jaws to know what to pull from the graphics card on the screen or in the system, to be able to help me interact. Because otherwise, I would have opened up a program and to me, it would have just been like a blank screen. I wouldn't be able to see or interact with data on the screen. Now, with more things being web based, it's a little easier to do those things. Not always. There are still some programs that are inaccessible, but most of what I do is through the use of Windows 10 or 11, and and with the use of Jaws, I do have, I devices. I like Apple devices, the smaller ones. I'm actually speaking to you using an iPad right now, a sixth generation iPad I've had for a while. I have an iPhone so I can still, you know, look up stock tickers. I can send 10. Text messages or emails, if I have to using that. But in general, I find that for efficiency sake, that a computer, a full on computer, tends to work best and and then I use that more rapidly and with more facility than anything else, right? I use the Kurzweil 1000 system to scan PDFs, or sometimes printed documents or books, things like that, into a readable form where I'm trying to, trying to just kind of anticipate what other things you may ask about. But you know, I use office 365, just like anybody else might. You know, I I have to use a lot of commonly available programs, because the people monitoring my work, and even the clients that I interact with still need to, even if they have sight, they need to read an email right after I send it. You know, they've my assistant has to be able to proof and manipulate a document in a form that she can read, as well as one that I can listen to or use Braille with. I'm a fluent Braille reader and writer. So there are some gizmos that I use, some braille displays and Braille keyboards and things of that nature. But, you know, most people seem to be under the misconception that a blind guy has to use a special blind computer, which must cost a king's ransom, not true, if anybody's listening to the program that isn't familiar with 2024 era blindness technology, it's mostly the same as anybody else's except with the modifications that are needed to make stuff accessible in a non visual format, and   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:45 the reality is, that's what it's all about. It's not like it's magically expensive. There are some things that are more expensive that do help. But the reality is that we use the same stuff everyone else uses. Just have some things that are a little bit different so that we are able to have the same access that other people do, but at the same time, that's no different than anyone else. Like I point out to people all the time, the electric light bulb is just a reasonable accommodation for light dependent people. Anyway, it's just that there are a whole lot more people who use it, and so we spend a whole lot more time and money making it available that is light on demand to people. But it doesn't change the fact that the issue is still there, that you need that accommodation in order to function. And you know that that, of course, leads to and, well, we won't spend a lot of time on it, but you are are very involved in the National Federation of the Blind, especially the NFB of Indiana, and you continue to pay it forward. And the NFB has been all about helping people to understand that we're not defined by blindness. We're defined by what we are and who we are, and blindness is happens to be a particular characteristic that we share   Kane Brolin ** 1:03:09 well, and there's a lot of other characteristics that we might not share. As an example, somebody, I don't know that he is involved in the NFB as such, but you know blind, if you're involved in American Blind culture and and that you've probably heard of a man named George Wurtzel. He is the brother of the guy that used to be president of the NFB of Michigan affiliate. But I understand that George is very good at things that I am not at all good at. He, you know? He understand that he almost built his own house from the ground up. His skill is not with computers and email and all this electronic communication that they do today, but he's a master woodworker. He's an artisan. You know, I I'm also involved, and I'd be remiss if I didn't mention it, I'm also involved with an organization called Penny forward, which is, you know, it could be the direction that I ultimately head in even more because it dovetails with my career. It's financial, education and fitness by the blind, for the blind, and it was started by a young man named Chris Peterson, who's based in the Twin Cities, who is not an NFB guy. He's actually an ACB guy, but his values are not that much different, and he's been a computer programmer. He's worked for big organizations, and now he started his own and has made a full time business out of financial fitness, educational curricula, podcasting, other things that you can subscribe to and buy into. And he's trying to build a community of the varied blind people that do all kinds of things and come from all sorts of backgrounds. And in one of the later editions of his podcast, he interviewed a man who's originally from Florida, who. Founded a company called Cerro tech that some might be familiar with, Mike Calvo, and Mike came to some of the same conclusions about blindness that you and I have, except that he's much younger. He's from Florida, and he's a Cuban American. He's a Latino whose first language growing up probably was Spanish, and who actually came out of, out of the streets. I mean, he was, he was in gangs, and did all kinds of things that were very different from anything I was ever exposed to as a young person. So I think in a lot of ways, we as blind people face the same types of issues, but we don't. None of us comes at it from the same vantage point. And, you know, we're, we're all dealing with maybe some of the same circumstances, but many, many, we've gotten there in very many different ways. And so I try to also impose on people. We are all different. We're a cross section. We don't all tie our shoes or cook our meals the same way. We don't want to live in the same environment. We don't want to do the same hobbies. And we don't all have better other senses than sighted people do. I don't know how many times you've heard it. I'd be a very rich man if I had $1 for every time someone said, Well, yeah, but you know, being blind, your hearing must be so much better, your sense of smell must be so much more acute. Well, no, the the divine forces in the universe have not just compensated me by making everything else better. What do you do with someone like Helen Keller, who was blind and deaf. There are people with plenty of people with blindness, and also other morbidities or disabilities, or I don't even like disabilities, different different abilities, different strengths and weaknesses. Along with blindness, there are blind people who also happen to be autistic, which could be an advantage to them, in some ways a disadvantage to others. I would like to go beyond the discussion of disability and think of these things, and think of me and others as just simply being differently able, because, you know, what kinds of jobs and roles in life with people that have the characteristic of autism, maybe they are actually better at certain things than a non autistic person would be. Maybe overall, people who live with the characteristic of bl

I learned from our guest this time that only about %1 of Americans serve in the military. For most of us, our understanding of the military and military life comes from what we see in the movies, watch on television and sometimes from what we read in books. Our guest today, Rob Richard, has served in the U.S. army for over 20 years and is now about to be fully retired from the life that he has come to know. Rob's upbringing was in a military family. I asked him if all that he had learned and seen growing up prepared him for a life in the military. His somewhat surprising answer was “no”. We spend much of this episode learning from Rob what his life was like. We get a glimpse into a military world that is significantly different than what we see in the movies and elsewhere. Rob offers us many great insights and helps us see a side of leadership that we all could learn from. Rob has visited 31 countries both for pleasure and work. What I like most about my time with Rob today is how he has used his military time to learn and develop an understanding of others much less himself. I think you will find Rob's observations poignant and useful in many ways. About the Guest: Rob Richard is a retired Army officer and a native of Southern Maryland. With 20 years of military leadership experience, he has served two combat tours in Iraq during the mid-2000s at the height of the war and several tours in Korea and Germany. Rob spent over six years as a Logistics officer in various Special Operations Units and 14 years in Conventional forces, gaining invaluable experience in both specialized and general military operations. His military experiences range from tragic and harrowing events to comedic tales of misadventure as he navigated his career through the bureaucracy of the American war machine. Rob's career has taken him around the globe, visiting over 31 countries for both work and leisure. He holds a Master's degree in Leadership and Management from Webster University and a Bachelor's degree in Communications from Towson University and completed the ROTC program through Loyola University of Baltimore. He is a dedicated husband and father of two. An alumnus of The Honor Foundation, Rob has successfully transitioned his elite military service to the private sector. The Honor Foundation serves as the premier career transition program for U.S. Special Operations Forces, helping to create the next generation of corporate and community leaders. Ways to connect with Rob: LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-j-richard About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well, hi everyone. I am Mike Hingson, your host here on unstoppable mindset, and we're going to have, I think, a lot of fun, as we usually do, and we love to anyway, I tell all of my guests who come on the podcast that the only rule that we have for unstoppable mindset, and it's a hard and fast rule is you got to have fun, so it's important to do that. Our guest today is Rob Richard. Rob has been in the military for these the last 20 years, and he is retiring, so I'm anxious to hear all about that, and any stories and other things that he wants to tell. But he's he's an intriguing individual. It's been fun chatting with him and preparing for this. So Rob, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Rob Richard ** 02:08 Thanks, Michael. It's, uh, it's honor to be here. You know, last night I told my son, um, a little bit about your backstory, and then I was coming on here, and he was like, Oh, that's such an honor to talk to him. And he said, wow, they picked you, dad, really? And I was like, I was like, I guess, I guess he wants to speak with me. So it's an honor talking to you, and I appreciate your backstory. And my son, you know, learning about history in America over the past, you know, 20 years or so, being nine, he was very, you know, thought it was very honor for me to speak with you today. And I agree. I concur. So thank you very much for having   Michael Hingson ** 02:36 me. Well, I don't know, as a matter so much a matter of picking my belief is that everyone has a story to tell, and I believe that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. And the problem is that we grow up mostly not really learning to have as much in the way of self confidence, and I mean that in a positive way, as opposed to just an ego, but self confidence and self respect as we should have, and all too often, were were encouraged not to really think as strongly about our capabilities and ourselves as we should. So my goal with unstoppable mindset has always been to give people an opportunity to come on and tell their story and help all of us realize that we're more unstoppable than we think we are. And I think that's really pretty important to do. So I Well, one of these days we we have to interview your son, and that ought to be fine. He's   Rob Richard ** 03:36 going to achieve great things. He's more kids, so it takes after his mom. So Well, there   Michael Hingson ** 03:41 you go. Well, I suspect that you have something to do with it too, sure. Well, tell us a little bit kind of about the early Rob growing up and all that sort of stuff.   Rob Richard ** 03:51 So I come from a military family. My father was in the army, and he's from New Jersey originally, but my maternal family was based out of Baltimore. My grandfather, paternal grandfather, was also in the military. I spent most of my formative years in Southern Maryland, in Charles County, Maryland, which is a distinctly unique place. It's about, you know, 45 to 50 minutes south of DC. So there's a bit of this sort of rural kind of where the south starts right the Chesapeake Bay and the lower Potomac River, a culture of nefarious characters and great fun growing up there. But I was close enough to DC to be around that that sort of government culture quite a bit. Also had a few formative years in Alabama and Alaska as well, moving around so that shaped a lot of who I was living in the South in the in the 80s and early 90s. And then, of course, you know, I went to college in Baltimore, very closely connected to that city, based on my maternal family's connection. There huge oils fan. I love the city of Baltimore. Brother was a police officer there for a while. So I'm a Maryland guy through and through. I'm from there. Very proud of it. I went to college at Towson University in Baltimore, Maryland. Ah. Where I did the ROTC program through Loyola College, and that's pretty much the gist of me. I think that growing up where I did around the folks that I did, the interesting characters, the type of youth that I had a little bit wild and and sort of free for all that sort of Gen Xenu youth, of just kind of being let, let go to my own devices kind of help shape who I am and help shape my character greatly. So that's pretty much my early start in life.   Michael Hingson ** 05:26 So there was kind of no doubt that you were going to go into the military. Probably family expected it, and you grew up expecting it, I guess.   Rob Richard ** 05:36 Well, you know, I to be honest, I never thought much about the military until I was going to go away to college, right? And so my dad was like, hey, you know, the ROTC program is a great way to give yourself an opportunity right out of college, and they pay for everything. So Truth in Lending, I probably joined the army more for financial reasons out of the gate than, you know, family patriotic reasons. They're certainly part of that. And obviously, when I was in ROTC, the second year, 911 obviously happened. And so I knew that my future was kind of written for me, with a lot of strife going forward as a military guy. So I knew probably around 2021, that's kind of what I wanted to do. But it wasn't always that way. There was a lot of other things I wanted to do growing up, and it just kind of, for whatever reason, that was the shining light that kind of, you know, directed me towards, you know, serving. So I ended up doing that for 20 years, and here I am now. So   Michael Hingson ** 06:30 Well, there you go. Well, on the other hand, if there were other things that you wanted to do, did you get to do any of them in the military? Did the military give you up an environment where you were able to stretch and grow and maybe do some things that that you wanted to do, or maybe that you didn't even think you were ever going to do.   Rob Richard ** 06:48 Yes, I think, you know, one of the great things that that the military offered me was a chance to, I love getting in front of audiences, and I love to tell a story, and I love to tell and, you know, and tell a joke, and tell the things, and do these sort of things. So as a leader, you have to develop a great sense of communication, a great sense to relate to people who come from different backgrounds and and, you know, different places than yourself. And I think the military, being a leader in the military, in particular, you know, the branch of service that I served in the Army, as a logistician, I got a chance to really work with a lot of different types of folks and a lot of different groups of people. And it let me kind of see just all walks of life. And then I kind of mentioned we sent our pre question was, I've been to 31 countries for fun, you know, not just for work. I met my wife in Germany. She's was an American soldier as well. I've got a chance to see the world. The world. The military gave me that privilege. They gave me that opportunity that a lot of people just don't get, you know, I've gotten to see all kinds of things and go out and see the world. So I was very fortunate. And so I guess meeting new and interesting people, seeing the world leading young men and women in combat, is very important to me. It's something that I, you know, never really thought I would have a chance to do growing up, and there's, there's no war now, there was one. So, yeah, I got a chance to do, do these things for many years over so I'm very thankful to the military for that,   Michael Hingson ** 08:11 just the military, and this is just just popped into to my head. So it's just a curiosity, does the military overall tend to evolve as society evolves. I mean, it's not a stagnant kind of a thing. I would assume. I   Rob Richard ** 08:27 think it's a little bit ahead of the game, but I don't necessarily think they're ahead of the game, because it's necessarily the righteous thing to do, but it's almost a business decision, meaning so they desegregated units before most of America, you know, in our general populace was desegregated, but that was more of a decision because they they needed to have people work together, right? Because they had wars and to fight and and things to do. So I think the military is often ahead of the curve when it comes to, you know, desegregation, when it comes to, you know, moving people forward that don't have the backgrounds that are necessarily totally accepted by society at the time. So I think they're a little ahead of the head of the game when it comes to to those sort of things. So I think they generally keep pace with society, yes, if not a little bit ahead.   Michael Hingson ** 09:11 I'll tell you why I asked. It just was something I was thinking about as you were talking. I grew up in the Vietnam era, and for what that was worth on all sides. But during that time, they instituted and had the draft and they even developed a lottery system to decide who was going to go first. And my lottery number was fairly low, but when I turned 18, I fairly quickly got a letter saying you are classified one, a which was the classification where you could be drafted into the military. And I knew that that wasn't going to last being blind, and that they would figure that out, and they did, but I've always thought for me and. And others, they missed it. Why is it that a blind person couldn't find opportunities to serve in the military? It doesn't necessarily mean that we have to be in in the middle of a war zone. There are certainly other aspects of working in the military that a blind person could do, and yet the military kind of never really took advantage of that. Now there are a few people who were blinded in in wartime or because of one thing or another with terrorists, and so they're in the military. They started in the military and then they continued. But it still is true that you don't find real opportunities for blind people to serve in any aspect of the military. And I had a company that I formed back in 1985 and one of the main people who helped me was a retired colonel from the Marines, and he even said there is no reason why there there aren't opportunities available for people who are blind and think tanks and doing other kinds of things that are outside the regular war zone. So it's kind of fascinating, but I think it's an interesting and relevant thing to think about that clearly there are opportunities that ought to be available. Does that make sense?   Rob Richard ** 11:23 It does. I agree. I think one, the one thing about being a soldier at any level is there needs to be a commonality and a standard of that people can do a baseline thing, right? So there's physical fitness assessments, there's things that people need to do based on, you know, certain levels of training, whether it's shooting or going out and doing all these things, that there needs to be a baseline where everyone's kind of even So certain things that I worked in recruiting, uh, ironically enough, for two years, and certain things that are just qualifiers take away from the universal, uh, set that people need a universal set of skills, that people need to be a soldier in general. So there's avenues and different things that you can do with a disability or with things that are would mitigate you from serving in the front lines. But a little bit of what we'll talk about is in these previous wars, not everybody that was necessarily considered a frontline soldier, you know, was, was certainly not negated from from facing combat. And we can, we can talk about that, expound that a little bit, but I think that every person needs to have a basic set of skills. And there are certain things that, if you are blind or if you do have a disability that would, you know, take away from your your ability to do things that are a standard set of things, like, even as a senior officer or a senior non commissioned officer, you still have to take a certain physical fitness test, you still have to, you know, go out and shoot your weapon. You still have to do things that require sight, that require a certain level of hearing. Once you take away from that commonality that everyone has, now you're looking at someone who's not brought into the field and accepted as a soldier of commonality. Does that does that make sense? Or   Michael Hingson ** 12:59 you make an assumption, though, that isn't necessarily so. For example, there are a number of blind people who do shoot their hunters and so on. And so the issue is you have to separate out the skill from how you exhibit the skills. So, for example, right, shooting at a target, if there is a, if there is an auditory cue that allows me to aim at the target, can I learn to shoot at a target and and likewise, yeah, but I hear what you're saying, but I think at the same time, the reality is that that there are, there are certainly options, and what we really need to do is not leave out intelligent minds that might very well be able to contribute to what we do. And that's kind of what prompted the question,   Rob Richard ** 13:58 Oh, I agree, too. And I think that when you see the recruiting crisis that in particularly the army is facing, there needs to be avenues that bring other folks in who might not have the traditional physical skill set that other soldiers have, and allow them to serve. I agree with that, and that's something, I think, especially modern technology, that could be something to be brought into the fold in the future, to be looked at. But I do think, for like, I worked in Special Operations for, you know, for several years, you know, as paratrooper these sort of things. There are certain things that you must have this physical acumen and things that you must be able to do in order to accomplish those tasks in those schools. And, you know, the different training assessments that you have. So if there's a separate place that people can go and have those technologies available to mitigate anything that perhaps their, you know, disability might stop them from doing, I think that's certainly something to consider and something to look at going forward. So that's a great point. Like, I appreciate you bringing that up. I never looked at it that way, to be honest. So I always thought about this linear way of looking at. That you have to have these certain physical attributes to serve. But that's great. I that's a good way to look at it. So it's   Michael Hingson ** 15:06 well and I think, I think it's important to look at what attributes are are necessary to have, but But I also think that a lot of times what we can discover is that exhibiting those attributes may not be the same for one person as opposed to another, but the point is, we can still exhibit the attributes. So it's an interesting thing to, you know, to explore. Great. So tell me about the you know, and I realize that you're speaking for you and your observations and so on. But tell me a little bit about the crisis. You mentioned that, and I read it elsewhere. Tell me a little bit more about the crisis that we're really exhibiting today.   Rob Richard ** 15:46 So I worked in the Dallas, United States Army recruiting Dallas for two years. I was executive officer there, and I was also a time operations officer. And so I got to see the big picture of how the army does recruiting. And even then, in the height of the war, when the what they call the numbers was up and recruiting was was pretty good, still, they struggled to to link up the kind of bridge where they call it military civilian gap, right? So there's a couple different things I think that we need to take into consideration here. Number one, I think about only 1% of the nation serves right? And a large percentage of those folks are like myself. There they are legacy people, people who have a connection to the military. So I think the first thing to do is you have to bridge that military and civilian gap, and you have to look at why aren't people joining the military, right? And I'll be honest with you, the the army itself is terrible at branding in comparison to, say, the Marine Corps, right? Things like uniform and commonality of identity, the Marines do that way better, I think, than the army does. Right? As far as like, we have this certain set of things that we go with are always kind of changing their motto and go in different directions. But in general, there's also a population of people, because we just hit on it. Now you talk about, you know, having something that's going to stop you from serving. There are a large number of people who just don't meet the criteria. It's actually harder to get into the United States Army than it is to go to a four year university. So you're talking about physical fitness requirements. You're talking about legalities. You know, people getting in trouble with the law that disqualifies them from service, prior drug use, things like that, things that are looking at packing away and taking away for waivers. But the number one biggest thing is, I just think society societal differences on how civilian people and the military are connected. I think people just have a general misunderstanding of what the military is. They have a general misunderstanding of what it is to serve. And I just don't think that in our in our current society, that enough people are willing to step up and do it because life is too comfortable, and that's my personal opinion. That's not necessarily, you know, the Army's opinion. That's my opinion. Do you   Michael Hingson ** 17:51 think that it also has to do with how the military is portrayed, like in movies and TV shows and so on? Does that enter into it at all? Yes, I think, you know, we think so, and that's why I asked, I think   Rob Richard ** 18:04 so. And I like to get your take on what it is that when you say that, is it the is it a negative portrayal? Is a good portrayal. If you look at how certain wars are portrayed, right, you take it away. World War Two was portrayed versus, say, Vietnam, right? They're not portrayed totally different ways, right? You look at the modern war, and often veterans are painted this picture of a tragic experience, a tragic a tragedy, right? There's often this experience that is okay. This is a person that had a tragic thing happened to them. The war is something that was they went through and now they have this ailment, or whatever it is. It's often framed as that, but it's more complex than that. Yeah, a service is more complex than that. And I think that another thing is people don't understand that most military folks are middle class by the time they hit a certain age, right? So by the time you are excuse, by the time they hit a certain rank or time in service, they have middle class, you know, houses they live in a certain way of of a certain lifestyle that the army and the military in general affords to them. And I don't think people understand the financial and monetary benefit that you get for from the military. I don't think that's clearly articulated as a as a form of, hey, this is something I want my kid to do. You know, there's a lot of this, not in my backyard, type, but hey, that's great. Thank you for your service. But I don't want to serve, right? There's a lot of that that goes around in American society, I think. And I don't know if that resonates with you or if you agree, or Yeah, I   Michael Hingson ** 19:23 do understand that. I certainly don't disagree. I think that there is a lot of merit to that. What, what strikes me, though, is that there is a great misunderstanding. You know, if you watch some of the TV shows that are on when they talk about the military, it's, it's kind of a romanticized sort of thing, but the the and the the tragedy of veterans and so on, certainly there, there's a lot of that is focused on that at the same time when. We, when we go back and look at it, what, what caused that tragedy? What did? What did we not do as a society, to say, Bring a veteran home and be able to completely integrate them back into or bring them fully into society? And that's something where I think we as a as a society, do miss the point that where is much to I don't I want to use the word blame, but be responsible for integrating people back in because clearly, one of the things that I think is true about the military, and I don't think it's a bad thing, is that it is a particular kind of lifestyle. It's a very regimented lifestyle, and that's okay. But now, when you bring people, say, who have been to war and who have seen things back into society, there are, there is a lot more that we probably really ought to do to make sure that we're helping people get back into into the world that we're most of us are used to, and the fact that we don't understand what the world was that they were in, sort of contributes to us not really knowing how to bring them back into it.   Rob Richard ** 21:16 I agree. I agree. I think one of the things about special operations, where I worked for the past seven years, is they do a really good job of helping veterans, like, transition out of the military, whether they've had four or five years, or whether they've had, you know, 20 years, like myself, they have great programs. I told you. I completed the Honor Foundation, which was, you know, did a great service for me, helping me trans. Help Me transfer into civilian life and help me prepare for not in the corporate world, but just life in general. I think the military is getting better at that. I certainly think that our modern day era veterans were treated far better than, say, Vietnam veterans who came home. Yeah, you know, I really do believe that. I know my grandfather was a Vietnam vet, and I know there were times where, you know, he couldn't wear his uniform anywhere, or there's just people weren't treated with the same level of respect that I was. I always felt that when I came home, right, not necessarily the integration piece, but the fact that, you know, being a veteran, I always felt that I was thanked, or at least it's somewhat some way, even though it might seem patronizing that I was at the very least welcomed home and welcomed back and people appreciated, you know, whether they've experienced it or not, appreciate what I had been through, and we're very grateful for the most part, as to where in Vietnam, they certainly weren't. I think we've gotten better as a society about that. But where does that take you in, in the real and Reality of Things, right? Is it? Is it better veterans care, better mental health awareness, you know, things that I think they're working on? I certainly don't think we do a great job, in general, providing mental health for soldiers outside of special operations, right outside of the elite units that get elite care to access a lot of what military mental health care is is simply just getting you to go back to do your job, right? But when you leave the military, then the behavioral health, mental health care, it should be about getting you back to being a, you know, a human that is going to enjoy and live life to the fullest, right? So there's a difference, right? One's kind of make you a person who's going to go back to work and do is, you know, run the machines and run the papers as a as George Carlin would say. And the other is going to help you kind of be a normal human that fits into society, and that's the difference, you know? I think, well, the   Michael Hingson ** 23:25 other, the other aspect of it is that in the military, it is a very regimented sort of thing, and most of the time, there are people above you, and you realize they make the decisions, and we just carry out the orders. And now being back in the mainstream of society, you are more responsible for doing a lot of those things for yourself. And again, that's something that we need to teach people how to do.   Rob Richard ** 23:52 Again, sure. Well, I would, oh, go ahead, Michael, go ahead. No, go ahead. I was going to say I tend to disagree with that a little bit. I think people have a stereotype about military folks. You know, I you know most military people after, I said, as I mentioned before, after they hit a certain time and service a certain rank, their life is somewhat individualized. It's not necessarily a control that's a good point. Yeah, it really much is, I live in my own house. I don't live on post. I don't wake up every day and go to listen to listen to the bugle at five o'clock in the morning. You know, I think there's a misconception that soldiers are robots. When they are individuals with families, they are individuals, you know, that live lives outside of the military. Is it regimented? Yes. Is it a lifestyle? Yes. But I do think there's a misconception that the military is this completely controlling organization that has every facet of your life under control, and that's just not the case. You know, like I said, it's a it's just not really the case of how most military folks are. And there's so many great minds and artists and people that have all these great ideas that serve in the military, that are very bright and articulate and all these things. There's just a misconception about what a veteran is, I think. And I. Think that's another thing that when we tie in service and why people will and won't join, is the misconception. I mean, how many veterans do most people know? Do they have an uncle or a cousin or somebody that serves and that's something that we miss? You know, it's not exactly all the things that you see in the movie, you know, the guy on the street corner with the fatigue jacket and the one arm missing asking for money, that's that's not really most veterans. That's not really most of us. I think that's a misconception. Michael, that's just my take. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 25:24 and I, and I certainly didn't want to imply that it's so regimented that everybody's a robot, but, but I, but I, but I do think that until you get to that level that you were talking about, and I think that's a very valid point, it's probably more regimented than than a lot of people absolutely are used to. But by the same token, it still gets back to what level of support do we really give people when they when they come back, and the fact that there probably is a lot more that we could do. But you, you said something that prompts another question. And I think I'm well, I think I know the answer to this, but I'll be curious to see what you say, and that is, you're right back in the days of Vietnam veterans came home and they were they were spit on, they were not treated well, and so on. And it's a lot different today. Do you think that September 11 had a lot to do with that?   Rob Richard ** 26:20 I do. I think that people became, I was a young college student in the ROTC program, not quite in the military just yet, but I think that that event was the single catalyst to people realizing that, you know, we came together as a nation, more so than any other thing in my lifetime, ever after 911 so we came together. Now the wars that followed subsequently were very controversial, right? And they were something that divided the nation, but that particular event, you know, made the nation come together at writ large, more than any other event in history. So I think that that that kind of triggered people to be more understanding and appreciative of the military and the things that they would go do right, regardless of the political landscape, of what the wars would follow. People were very grateful. So I think 100% that 911 was a catalyst for people to be more patriotic, more supporting of the military. You know, enlistments were up. People were left and right, looking to join during that time frame, at least the first five to six years prior to the wars kind of going on, becoming quagmire, if you will. So I think so. I think you're right,   Michael Hingson ** 27:30 yeah, well, and I also think that the whole issue with the wars that followed, unfortunately, politics got much too much involved with it. So after September 11, should we have gone into Afghanistan to go after Osama bin Laden? That's one thing, but then, but then we decided to go into Iraq and go after Saddam Hussein, which was a totally different thing. And I still, yeah, and I still believe that that made no sense to do, but we did Sure, and we took our eye off the bin Laden ball, which is part of the problem. So unfortunately, politics gets too much into it and and that, in part, comes from the low bar that we have for politicians. So what do you do?   Rob Richard ** 28:19 I agree with that, yeah, we can agree on that. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 28:23 it's, it's a it's a challenge, you   Rob Richard ** 28:25 know, here's something I'll say on that, as far as I think when you serve in in I was, I'm a wreck veteran, so I've been to Iraq. I spent 15 months of my life there. And I will tell you that when you're there, you know, and I went there kind of a starry eyed sort of young lieutenant, just with the delusions of how things were going to go. So it's really a movie character on those sort of like character Oliver Stone movie, and what I saw was quite different than the reality of what I thought I would see. But I will tell you this at the end of the day, regardless of the political implications of the wars and the meanings behind them, when you have the American military machine together, right? And however chaotic it is, or however things are, I can hang my head on the fact that I was able to lead my soldiers, men and women, young people from you know, like The Rolling Stones of that great song, the salt of the earth, right? Say, say a prayer for the common foot soldier. Those were my guys, the common truck driver, mechanic and people that you know join the military for a certain purpose, whether it's money for patriotism, whatever, when asked to do this mission, regardless of its political implications, they did it. They did it well, and they did it to a level that's impressive and something that is beautiful to watch in action and that I'll always be proud of. Yeah. So if Aaron ever says, hey, you know, you serve these wars, and they're this, that and the other. I don't think when you're there, you think too much about it. That's the Coming Home part. That's the that's the thing you face later. When you're dealing with, you know, whether it's PTSD or these other sort of issues, that's when the philosophical question is to be answered. When you're there, when you're in the fight, that is. This, you doing your mission, you and your guys, the old adage, adage of left and right, that's what you're doing, and that I'm proud of, and that I can think our military did a great job. Right. Losing the war in the political sense is far different than losing the battles right in the actual militarily sense. So that's just something I hang my hat on. And I think that if we overlooked that as a society, and we overlooked that as a culture, that the wars are just this negative thing, and they were kind of, you know, excuse my language, or kind of, Bs, whatever. Yeah, we're overlooking the accomplishments of the actual people that were asked to do these things, right?   Michael Hingson ** 30:32 Well, and also well, and ultimately, let's, let's take Afghanistan. You know, we have we were there for a long time. Should we have been there as long as we were? I think that's a question that you can you can discuss and debate, but at the same time, the ultimate thing we were looking to do was to deal with Osama bin Laden, and we did that. But then we did continue to stay, and there were reasons for it. Should we have or should we have been smarter about withdrawing again? Those are all discussions that one could have. But I think that ultimately, it seems to me, you know, if people said, and people ask me, Well, did we lose the war in Afghanistan? I don't know that we lost the war, but I think the politicians didn't help but I think that the military did what they were supposed to do. I   Rob Richard ** 31:24 agree. But, you know, I the the general who said this escapes me, but it was not a 20 year war. It was a one year war fought 20 times. Yeah. So when you so you have these wars, you have a different general, a different you know, whatever it is, come in and they all have a different take on how we're going to accomplish this goal. But both those wars, whether it was the one I fought in Iraq or the one in Afghanistan, you know, they there were no real clear objectives for us. They were one year at a time, little hash marks of trying to accomplish these small goals. And we were never given a clear picture of what victory looked like, very similar to Vietnam. So I think that's, I don't think that's put on the that's not put on the backs of the common veteran. That's put on the backs of the politicians. Yeah, that was that, I was sure that's put on. I The generals too. I think so they, they owe their, you know, by that time you hit to that, that level, it's, it's a political level. And I think they're, they owe an answer to that. You know, my personal opinion, me as a retired Army officer, I think they owe an answer to that.   Michael Hingson ** 32:23 Well, we don't necessarily have the same kind of generals as we had with a patent or even a storm in Norman Schwarzkopf. You know the Sure, sure.   Rob Richard ** 32:31 Well, there's some very particular generals out there. Some good there are. But I there are, I think, I think those wars were never, never given clear, clearly defined objectives by any political figure, and that makes it impossible to what you would traditionally call a win, right? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 32:48 I do. I do. I know exactly what you're saying, and it makes and it makes perfect sense well for you. So you joined the military. Did you think that you were going to be traveling the world and seeing 31 countries and doing all the things that that you did, or was any of that a surprise to you? No,   Rob Richard ** 33:05 I'll tell you. So when you're in college and you're ROTC, you you know, or West Point, or whatever you're, you know, I was an ROTC guys. So you have West Point, you have OCS, your different commissioning sources, you're, you're branched a certain whether it's infantry or armor or whatever, I was a transportation branch. So I thought I, you know, I got stationed in Germany, my first duty assignment. And, you know, I had two deployments to the Middle East during that time. It was about a six year stint. And I never thought that I would have this amazing fun, adventurous and it's a family show here, adventurous show. Adventurous life that I had, that that that I was given. I thought I would just end up at some base somewhere in Texas, and barbecue on Sundays, drink more lights, watch football like everybody else. I never thought I'd have this great life. I never thought I'd travel the world in Gallivan so I'm very fortunate in that way. And I just, I don't think most people picture that, but when you get your first what they call assignment, your duty station, and it's Germany, and my second one being Korea, traveling all around Asia. You know, with my, my awesome wife, I I'll tell you, I never thought I would have that, to be honest with you, that's never something that crossed my mind. That level of adventure and fun, it almost kind of mitigates some of the things that you had to go through in war. It almost makes it like they kind of balance each other out, I think, well,   Michael Hingson ** 34:19 and traveling to and traveling to Germany, of course, got you your wife.   Rob Richard ** 34:24 Yes, true, yeah. So we met. You were both soldiers, and just, you know, we, we met by by sheer chance, and that's something that I look back on, and I'm always very thankful to Uncle Sam for that. So,   Michael Hingson ** 34:34 yeah, there's, there is that. Did she stay in the military?   Rob Richard ** 34:38 No, she got out. So we, we were in Korea, and then I got stationed to go work in recruiting in Dallas. And she made the decision that, you know, I was a little bit further along, a little bit older. And she made, we made the decision that, hey, the dual military thing is very difficult. That is one of the, I think, most difficult career choices you could make, is to have two service members in especially once you hit the senior levels. And so we decided, hey, you know. I'm going to stay in, she's going to get out, and she's a very successful entrepreneur, doing very well with with some things that she's got going on. So I think we made the right choice, and she gets to be mom and be this amazing mother. So I think that's something, I think collectively, was the right decision. Well, that that worked. How old? How old are the kids? I got a nine year old, my son, Alex, and then he's about to be 10, and then my daughter, Evie, named Evangeline, after a song by the the band the Great, the band Yvonne Hill, she is six. So they're, they're still pretty young. A lot of give me, give me a handful here. Well, that's,   Michael Hingson ** 35:34 that's fine, you know. And we'll see who, who does better and who handles who better? The kids handle you guys, or you handle the kids better. We   Rob Richard ** 35:43 were on a pretty tight ship here, Michael, so at least my wife does. I'm going to push over, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 35:49 Well, there you go. Well, but it, but it's, but it is interesting to to be able to see a lot of the world. And I, you know, I've, I've had the never been to Germany. I've been to Korea and spend some time there. And that was a lot of fun. I've been to Japan and to some places. I've been to the Netherlands, but not to Germany, when actually, in about a month and a half, no, actually about a month, I'll take my first trip to London to speak. Oh, wow. I've been to Ireland, but never to London. And then it's fun to go through the logistics of being able to take a guide dog to London and doing all the things to to clear the dog. I think it's a lot more work to get him ready to go than me, but we'll cope. Yeah, but it's, but it's, but it is fun. And I, I think there is so much value in seeing so many different places around the world and all that we can learn. I think that we take way too much for granted, and we we think that we're so much better, sometimes than than other places. And in some right, some ways, our country and our society works better, and some ways it doesn't necessarily do that, but I don't think it's my place to judge, but rather to go and learn and bring back knowledge and put it to use.   Rob Richard ** 37:04 I agree, it certainly makes you a better person as as a collective right to understand. You know, America's a great place, and I love this country dearly, but there are many things that that we can learn from other cultures. You know, we work so hard here in Germany, and I tell you about three o'clock, they take off and go have a beer and relax a little bit. You know, there's, and they still, they managed to run a very efficient society without the hustle culture that we have. And I, I am a stern capitalist. I love to work hard. But there's something to take away from that. You know, there's also, on the other side of the spectrum, in Korea and Asia, they work even harder than we do, right? So there's, there's a level of where to meet in the middle, and looking at these different cultural things. And, you know, it's just, I just very fortunate to have seen all that, and take a little bit from each one and kind of develop my own life, and these are gonna teach my children and stuff. So that's, that's great. I think I love London, too. The   Michael Hingson ** 37:54 founder of the National Federation of the Blind was a blind constitutional law scholar, Jacobus tembrick, who was at UC Berkeley, and one of the things that his wife told me, I never did get to know chick 10 Brook, but I knew his wife, and she said that he could go for long periods of time, because he would take what we now call a power nap for 20 minutes, and then he could get up and work for hours. And we don't encourage any of that, and I think it's truly unfortunate, because there's a lot of value in having a little bit of downtime that then keeps you able to keep moving a lot more than you think you might.   Rob Richard ** 38:33 No, no, I agree. I think that's something in the military they focused a few years, the past couple of years, on, which is, I don't know it's, maybe it's all for not but focusing on on sleep, you know, wellness and overall spiritual you know, thing that's going on here, trying to get everybody together in this sort of triad approach of wellness, sleep and physical fitness and stuff. And sleep is so important to being a successful leader. You know, one hour of sleep versus four makes all the difference in your decision making. Makes all the difference in your ability to lead, your ability to persevere through problems. So slaves huge, you know, even it's only four hours, yeah, well,   Michael Hingson ** 39:12 and but again, even during the day, taking a half hour and resting your eyes and then coming back gives you energy to continue, and we don't. We don't do enough of that. So I'm, I'm all in favor of exploring and and doing more to to deal with sleep and wellness and looking at other ways to help us move more effectively and more efficiently during the day. I agree. Yeah, so it makes sense well, now your career as a logistician and so on, as you said, is pretty unique. What what made it so unique, and why do you feel that that really helped shape you into what you are, and where do you think this is going to take you going forward?   Rob Richard ** 39:58 So I think a lot of times. When you are again, we talk about conditioning source. So when you go into the military, a lot of guys, they say, Okay, I want to be an infantry person. I want to be an armor guy. I want to be special forces, whatever. There's many different avenues that you can enter the military. And I think coming in initially as a transportation officer. You know, I went to Iraq, and I had these sort of experiences that, I think, again, we talk about movies, they're often overlooked, right? So I was in Iraq for 12 months. My first deployment, I was a platoon leader. I had 60 soldiers. I went on well over 60 plus missions that are, what are called convoys. So I was putting in these dangerous, arduous situations and these things that that could result in grave violence, and these sort of things that I experienced, and that my soldiers experienced, that gave me a unique out outlook on life, right? And I think that because of our underdog persona in nature, as logistics guys, you know, it's all a big wheel, and there's all these folks that make it work, right? And so as an underdog type character, and having these sort of salt of the earth type soldiers, it's given me a unique perspective on people, a unique empathy. I think a lot of military guys are kind of seen, seen as cold and stern, these sort of square jaw type characters. I don't really think I'm like that at all. It's giving me a unique perspective to grow and to be more loving and empathetic, to be a better dad. I think just serving that type of field and that type of profession is very different. It's also a little more diverse than, like, say, your standard, like Special Operations Unit, which is a lot of square jawed white guys from the Midwest, you know, as to where logistics, there's a much more diverse profile of people from all over, you know, from Jamaica or Puerto Rico, from every different state, from these, these different types of folks. And I really had a chance to just work with people who are different, who built my level of love and empathy overall. And I think being in the branch and the field that I was in really helped shape that for me. And then just, I don't think I would have had the experiences say I had been, you know, I mean, I went to airborne school when I was 38 so I did the paratrooper thing. I served in Special Operations units, airborne units, this sort of thing. And I'm honored to have been with those. But I think if I hadn't started in these sort of, like working class type units, you know, out of Germany, you know, under equipment, under trained, I really learned to persevere through things without the best of everything, right, without the best training, without the best you know, given the best tools to go accomplish, you had to accomplish more with less, right? And I think that really is a lesson that you can't really get necessarily in other fields and other branches of the military. I really think what I got assigned to do really helped me persevere through things and become a better person overall. And I don't know if that answers the question. But I think that's kind of, you know, the uniqueness of it that makes it different. And most people, again, haven't had the opportunity to travel and see the things I have. And I just think that, you know, I'm very fortunate in that realm. So I just think overall, holistically, my life has been better because of the job that I got. And to be honest with you, I mean, it's great to be an infantry guy, but a supply chain manager, professional supply chain manager, really does prepare you a little better for the corporate world. So in the end, it kind of helps you transition to the civilian thing that you can do and gain monetary advantage. So I think it all worked out. I   Michael Hingson ** 43:16 think it does probably just with the little that I know about it and understand about I think it does probably better prepare you, because the jobs are fairly similar to what you'll find in certain aspects of the corporate world, which is kind of important. And I like your idea on your analogy of doing things with less. I think a lot of us, especially for those of us who are blind, for example, and people with disabilities in general, oftentimes we have to deal with less, just because society hasn't emphasized making sure that we have alternatives that give us the same chances and opportunities as others do. So we have to deal with less like I work for accessibe. And so accessibe is a company that, among other things, helps makes websites more inclusive for for people with disabilities. Well, the bottom line is that people creating websites don't do things that they could do to make websites more usable and accessible right off the bat. And so the result is that we have to get creative in figuring out how, if it at all possible, we can use a website, and some we can't, because there's just no way, no way to have information that works. But there are also any number of websites that are accessible enough or have enough information that is a friend of mine once said, we can muddle through and make it work, but we do have to deal with those challenges, and I think it makes us better, because we face the challenges and we work through them.   Rob Richard ** 44:54 That makes perfect sense. That does Yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 44:56 so you having to do that same sort of thing. Sometimes it it makes you a better person. It makes you probably more of a resilient person, but at least it makes you a more inventive person, because you don't take some things for granted.   Rob Richard ** 45:11 Yes, and you know, I think people when they have an idea of a soldier or a leader, I think emotional intelligence and empathy are something that people don't associate with the military. But when you're when you're a young, 24 year old lieutenant, all the way up through, you know, being a more senior officer or senior leader, you have so much of your life that is assigned and tasked to helping others and taking care of people. Their problems are your problems, right? You learn so much about the human condition through serving in the military that I don't think it can even compare in any other walk of life, you know, say, maybe being a first responder or something along those lines. But when you're with somebody in this this situation is arduous and dangerous for 12 months, you know, going on all the way through a 20 year career, you can't put a price or a value on how much experience you get of developing an emotionally intelligent approach to things, right? Some people, I think anybody who doesn't struggle with decisions as a human right, it goes through the experience of war and serving in the military. I think very rarely do you not come out of that with a real profound understanding of the human condition, right? And I don't think anything else could give you that, as far as a profession. And I think understanding people becoming more loving, it might not seem like something from a military guy to say, but loving empathy, you know, understanding the these, these folks and different types of people. I think it's a beautiful thing to be honest, you know, and I feel very cherished that I've had to have that opportunity to become a better human. Again, things aren't necessarily associated with like a military man who's straightforward and, you know, talks in a certain way. And again, some people aren't like that. Some people kind of go through, you know, self absorbed, like any profession, just about themselves. But I think a good military leader. You know, the army a leader, and particularly officers, we always eat last, right? So when I went to Airborne School at 38 years old, as an old, older guy, I was the second oldest guy in my class, the highest ranking person in my class, and so I ate after 200 soldiers, I let 200 people go in front of me, right? And that's not to be hubris or to brag about something, but that's just what you're supposed to do as a leader, to get to show that, hey, I'm here for you guys. You guys eat first, right? You always leaders, always eat last. There's that old adage. And I just think the regular world is not necessarily, the regular civilian world isn't necessarily that way, you know? And I think that's something that really made me grow as a human and to be a better person. So Well, I've always   Michael Hingson ** 47:40 felt, having worked in the corporate world, that a good boss is a boss who doesn't boss people around, who recognizes that leadership means sometimes you give up leadership to somebody else when there's a specific thing that you figure out they can do better. But also I believe that my role is to add value to each and every person who works for me, and I have to figure out with them how to add that value, but for the people who get it, it makes everyone a lot more powerful. And I mean that in a positive sense, it makes them a lot more productive and a lot more efficient. I think that that good leaders figure out how to do that, and that's important to do. Well, I wholeheartedly agree. So I'm curious about something. I keep coming back to it in my brain. So I'm going to ask in places like Israel, where everyone, at some point needs to go into the military, and goes into the military. And I understand why that happened. We don't do that here. How do you contrast, or what do you think about the contrast in those two methods of dealing with the military? Because then I asked that because you talked about the crisis, I'm not convinced that everyone should necessarily have to go in the military, but it's an interesting discussion to have.   Rob Richard ** 49:01 I kind of, I, you know, I like the way Korea does it. Korea has a societal conscription sort of program, right? So you can either join the military, you can be a paramedic, you can be a policeman. I don't necessarily think we need to go to that level, but I think there should be some general level of civic service, right? You have to have some level of commitment. And I think that not everyone, especially in our current society, is cut out to be in the army, to be in, you know, to be in the armed services, but there should be some level of civic conscription where people have to serve for maybe a year or two in somewhere. I really do believe in that. It might sound a little bit draconian libertarian, but I think it's something to look at. I think it would make people better humans. Because nowadays, like, there wasn't World War Two, there was a general understanding that we have a universal effort, that we're going forward as a nation. There was such a connection to the military service, and everyone chipped in, you know, everyone chipped in and all the time, and I don't think that really is the case. Everyone is going in their own direction. Shouldn't we're not going in a general direction. It's good for the country as a society, and without some sort of civic inscription, I don't know if that's possible people to truly understand what others go through, right? And so I agree. I think that we should have some sort of level of of civil civic service, not necessarily level of the draft, but right, not quite like how Israel does it, but   Michael Hingson ** 50:20 yeah, so, and I think that makes a lot of sense, and I think that also it's a great learning experience, yes, which is a part of what I think you're also suggesting, and I think that that makes a lot of sense, that that brings you into being a more well rounded individual as you go forward. And I think that it's important to do that, and we need to figure out some way to do that.   Rob Richard ** 50:46 No, I agree. I think that, you know, when you're in Israel, is a homogenous society, very similar. People have similar religions, similar takes. Our society, when you look at as a whole, is completely different than any other society in the world, as how different we are in the many cultures that we have in a collective approach to civil service, I think could help, I really do think could help something to unify us. Again, not quite to the 911 unification type, right, but somewhere where we can come together as society and say, Hey, we got a common purpose here. Let's go forward with it. You know, so   Michael Hingson ** 51:18 Well we, we were so unified after September 11, and I can point to specific political things that damaged that and took away from the unification and so unfortunate that that kind of thing occurred. And we have, there are other aspects. I mean, we also now have this technology where everyone has so much instantaneous access to so much information, some of which is real and some of which is false, but still the the fact is, we have access to things that we didn't before. And you mentioned World War Two, I collect old radio shows as a hobby, and I listen to many of the shows in the World War Two era, and listen to how all the actors, all the people on those shows, were part of the story that helped pull the country together, and everyone was committed. Yeah, there were challenges. Yeah, there were problems, but people really did come together for the most part, and worked because we knew it's what we needed to do, and that's the operative part. We knew what we needed to do. We needed to be unified, and if we weren't, that was a problem.   Rob Richard ** 52:36 Oh no, I agree. I think, though, there's a fine balance between unification and then a controlled narrative that takes people away from a independent free thought, right? One of the things we've gotten away from is independent free thought. There are two sides to everything. There's my side, your side, and a good collective would be great, but that you still have to have that, that approach to independent thought, right? And I also think something's missed about the military, if I could expound a little bit, is that many people in the military here are some of the world class cynics. You know, they're not necessarily these, hook, line and sinker, follow suit, type of folks. They're just the they're very aware of their situation and sort of what's going on. And they're very like, okay, is this really the deal here? You know, people are very skeptical. They're very they have a lot of free thought, a lot of independent thought. They're very politically engaged in what they think, and very go after things and have articulate points that that they clearly think of, as opposed to just like, Oh, we're all we all think the same. You know, that's a misconception about the military. We don't there are people of all different facets and walks of life and and think completely different on every issue under the sun, and that's important. So I think having a collective civic response and duty to things is great, but we start to keep our independent thought as a nation in a society.   Michael Hingson ** 53:53 I think the other part of that, though, is that we need to learn again, to be understanding of people who have a different position than we do, and we need to stop saying, Well, you're wrong, and because they think we're wrong, whoever they and we and you are. And the reality is it's it's more than just having the independent thinking ability and opportunity, but it's being able to talk about it and people who truly can, again, learn so much because you you learn to understand why people think the way they do sometimes or a lot of times. And that's important too.   Rob Richard ** 54:36 Yes, absolutely, I agree 100% so   Michael Hingson ** 54:40 logisticians are generally not part of when you watch movies and so on, they're not typically what's featured. What? Why is that? Or how do we get the logistics world a little bit more understood? And I know that that goes beyond the military, but you know, nevertheless, yeah.   Rob Richard ** 54:59 Yeah, well, so again, I think you're looking at what in this. This is to take nothing away from anyone. So when you look at most of the majority of TV shows and books, and rightfully so, I'll say rightfully so, so much of it is about special operations, yeah, frontline soldiers, what you would call, you know, in World War Two, there was a linear Battlefield, so there were two entities facing each other, face to face in a situation, but over the past 20 years, and even all going all the way back to Vietnam, they weren't linear battlefields. They were battlefields where all these support type soldiers, whether it's communicators or truck drivers, mechanics, even cooks and these other people, are combat veterans. They are facing combat. They have dangerous and arduous tales of heroics that need to be told often. You know, especially in particular in convoy operations throughout Afghanistan and Iraq. I think it's overlooked because it's well, it's not sexy, it's not what people want to see. It's not the conditioned thing of what people are supposed to see. But I think it can often be talked about in a humorous way, like we, I think you and I, we talked a little bit about mash, right? And that's about doctors, Army doctors who are support personnel and enablers. And there's a comedic approach to it. It's not all just serious, stoic, you know, movie sort of nonsense. It is a, it is a comedic approach to a real topic, and it covered it gracefully. You know, Hogan's Heroes, these sort of comedic shows that we all had, that we were elected, who understood, and that we love McHale's Navy again, another one. I think that logisticians and support folks are often overlooked because it's just not what is considered to be cool. But there are stories about war, about these brave and courageous things that people have done, and I've witnessed with my own eyes that I think is an interesting and fun story, not fun, but an interesting story that needs to be told so that legacy doesn't drift off into the wind, like the gun trucks in Vietnam, right? There was these things that were developed. A great documentary on Smithsonian about

While participating at the National Federation of the Blind National convention this year with my colleague and friend, Sheldon Lewis who also is a former guest here on Unstoppable Mindset, we had the opportunity to meet Amy SP Wilson. Amy is the founder and leader of the Safety Positive Foundation. Amy began losing her eyesight at the age of ten years old due to a condition known as Stargardt's. this disease can best be described as macular Degeneration in juveniles. If you want to know more about Stargardt's just listen into my conversation with Amy. Amy has always been quite interested in personal safety. She also has been quite a physical person starting with wrestling with her cousins to later becoming the first female wrestler at the Missouri School for the Blind to later becoming part of the inaugural women's Judo team of the United States Association of Blind Athletes. Amy went on to college where she obtained a Bachelor's degree in Psychology. After a time and some life challenges Amy will tell us about she decided to go back to college to obtain a second Bachelor's degree in Social Work. She decided to get this second degree because she wanted to help persons with disabilities in the United States. In 2023 Amy founded Safety Positive Foundation to teach blind persons about self defense. Her approach is by no means all about being physical. She will talk with us about self awareness and self advocacy, two aspects she feels must be part of the psyche of everyone who wishes to take charge of their own life. About the Guest: ael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well, hi everyone. I am your host, Mike hingson, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And the reason it's worded that way people still ask me why I say that. The reason it's worded that way is that when we talk to diversity people, they'll talk about race, gender, sexual orientation and so on, and they never talk about disabilities. So unfortunately, the ship has mostly sailed when it comes to including disabilities in diversity, no matter what they say. So we won't let them do that with inclusion, which means it's inclusion diversity and the unexpected. And today we get to deal with a lot of all of that. The unexpected is anything that doesn't have anything to do with inclusion or diversity. But today, we do get to talk about inclusion a lot in some esoteric and maybe not so esoteric ways. Our guest today is Amy SP Wilson, and I just discovered, as Amy showed me, if you were to ask your smart speaker, like my Amazon Echo, who is Amy SP Wilson, it will tell you that she is the CEO of the positive safety positive foundation. We're going to talk more about that, so we'll get there anyway. Amy, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Wonderful.   Amy SP Wilson ** 02:45 Thank you for having me. It's an honor and a privilege, and   Michael Hingson ** 02:49 it's nice to know that the echo knows your name.   Amy SP Wilson ** 02:53 Yeah, I'm still kind of flabbergasted that that's a thing, but definitely gives you some street cred, I guess.   Michael Hingson ** 03:02 Yeah, it probably means that there, there aren't, well, there certainly aren't very many. Amy SP Wilson, so that works, yes, well, why don't we start the way I kind of really love to. Why don't you tell us, sort of about the early Amy growing up and some of that sort of stuff.   Amy SP Wilson ** 03:21 So in my younger years, I was born and raised in the state of Missouri, and have what I consider a biker family. We did a lot of traveling on motorcycles. I was riding my own dirt bike at the age of four, and so really tomboy at at heart, but loved, you know, wrestling and fighting with the cousins. And at the age of 10 is when I was diagnosed with star guards, and that put me on a different path, because at the age of 10, my dream was to be a motorcycle mechanic and join the Navy. And at the time, I did not have any expectations that a blind person could do either. So it really put me on a different trajectory of what I thought my life was going to going to be like, and I, of course, went on with school and and that sort of business, but I loved wrestling so much that I became the Missouri School for the blinds First Lady wrestler. And that led me into being part of the United States Association of Blind Athletes, where I was on the first women's judo team that they had, and so just got real passionate about personal safety and different ways. But due to my eye condition, I couldn't take hits to the head, and so there went my martial arts career this. I'll just say, or so I thought, and led me into going to college and get my my first bachelor's degree in psychology and and so on. But I I have people tell me that apparently I have been pioneering new things my whole life. And when I have to talk about myself and talk about I was the first to do this and first to do that, yeah, it's a very sobering reminder of those steps that I've make it in my life. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 05:35 Reading your bio, it says that because of star guard, you weren't at some at one point, able to continue kind of dealing with martial arts. What did star guard specifically have to do with that?   Amy SP Wilson ** 05:47 So it it affects my retina, and I noticed the more hits that I was taking to the head and, you know, being thrown I was having more cloudy spots in my vision, and when I stopped doing those things, it, it, you know, significantly reduced the amount of things I wasn't able to to see. And so that's, that's how that played into that well,   Michael Hingson ** 06:19 tell me a little bit about what star guards is. I'm not sure that everyone listening or watching will be familiar with   Amy SP Wilson ** 06:26 it, correct? Yes. So star guards is a juvenile form of macular degeneration. So you hear of, you know, your grandparents, or you know, maybe you're a person of experience, as I like to say, in your in your later years. And you know, hear about people getting macular degeneration. I essentially just got macular degeneration at the the age of 10. So little bit of a flip. And of course, again, being a first, I was the first person in my family to have any kind of blindness, low vision, and so it was. It really shook everything   Michael Hingson ** 07:06 is star guards, a genetic kind of situation.   Amy SP Wilson ** 07:12 So I learned that the only way that a person can get star guards is essentially by your parents getting together. It's not a medication defect, which is what they originally told my mother. So she carried a lot of guilt with that. And when I went to get seek a different doctor, he had me do some I guess genetic counseling is what they called it, because I had concerns of my son having it. And they were like, no, no, it doesn't work. And they explained it. I was like, well, that had been helpful in my younger   Michael Hingson ** 07:50 just sort of the right combination of things getting together that brings it on. Exactly. Yeah. Now, where do you live today? I live in the great Show Me State. Ah, so you're still in Missouri? Yes, I've   Amy SP Wilson ** 08:05 moved to a couple other states. I spent a year in Alaska, where my son was born. I lived in Indiana for a little bit. I pass on that, and fortunately, I was able to come back to to Missouri.   Michael Hingson ** 08:20 So we're in Missouri. Are you, uh, close   Amy SP Wilson ** 08:23 to Kansas City area? Okay, about about in that area, but I like to, I like it because I can take the train back and forth between Kansas City and St Louis. So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 08:34 well, trains are very useful things to have around. I when I lived on the East Coast, would use the train a lot. And of course, going from New Jersey into New York, we had New Jersey Transit and other things that we had a lot of train stuff. But out here, where I live now, there is a train that stops here once, at 430 in the morning. If I want to go to San Francisco, I'm not going to do that on the train, I don't think, because you actually have to go to Los Angeles and then get another train to go to San Francisco, because the train that comes from Los Angeles stops here, and then, I guess, goes east. So, oh, well, one of these days, maybe there'll be more trains and more mass transit, and that'll be a good thing. Exactly.   Amy SP Wilson ** 09:19 I know in Europe, trains are used very heavily, and people that come over here are constantly surprised that we don't have more sufficient trains. And so hopefully, like you said, with time we'll we'll get some more transportation going. There's   Michael Hingson ** 09:36 a big argument and a brouhaha going on out here right now because Los Angeles wants to create a gondola system to go from downtown LA the train station to Dodger Stadium and stop along the way. And there are people who are saying, no, no. Because you're not going to get that many people on it, it's just not going to be worth the cost. So it'll be interesting to see how that all shakes out. I do agree that if you're going to do that, you have to have a lot of people using it, and you have to be able to transport a lot of people. So it will be interesting to see how that works out.   Amy SP Wilson ** 10:22 I can very much agree with that.   Michael Hingson ** 10:25 Oh, life goes on, right? That it does. So you went to, yeah, go ahead. I   Amy SP Wilson ** 10:32 said. We've heard the same debate here in Missouri about different, you know, options for trains. So, yeah, it's always an ongoing conversation.   Michael Hingson ** 10:39 When we first moved to New Jersey, we learned that with the Americans with Disabilities Act, they were finally catching up, if you will, to doing something. And the something where we lived in Westfield was to make the train station accessible and access to the train to be accessible. And what that meant was that they actually had to build a platform and ramps up to the platform so that a person in a chair, for example, like my wife, could transfer straight across and roll onto the train. Because before the platform was raised, the trains have these big, huge, high steps built into them. Each step is like 18 inches tall and you've got three steps to go into the train. Well, you're not going to really do that in a wheelchair. And there was major opposition from people in Westfield to putting in the ramps, putting in the platforms, because they said, well, but this is going to slow us down if we have to go up the ramps and can't just run to the train and jump on the train. Why don't you just have somebody at every station who will lift people in wheelchairs onto trains? Yeah, that's gonna really work, right?   Amy SP Wilson ** 11:50 Yeah, that's not, not feasible,   Michael Hingson ** 11:54 no. And it didn't, and the argument didn't hold, fortunately, and the the platforms were built and, and, and the reality is it didn't jeopardize anybody, other than maybe make them arrive 30 seconds earlier, rather than being so lazy. But, ah, the arguments that people have. But it'll be interesting to see how the train thing works out, because they do need to have more mass transit out   Amy SP Wilson ** 12:18 here. Absolutely, 100%   Michael Hingson ** 12:21 so you went off to college, and what did you do in college,   Amy SP Wilson ** 12:27 college stuff, but because I was unfamiliar with how to really maximize your college experience. I didn't really, you know, have a plan. Once I got done with college, all I knew was I needed to go to college. Go to college, yeah, and, you know, because that's, that's what's going to make your life better. Okay, I can, I can follow that plan. But what's the plan after, like, nobody, nobody had that. They just knew, you know, go to college. Oh, okay. And so I tried to get some, some different jobs, unsuccessfully. And then I ended up getting married and moving to Alaska, and so did some some different jobs up there. And through my experience of being married during that time, I also shared with people that I'm a domestic violence survivor, and it's one of the things that I really wish the disabled community was having more conversations about this, because there I know that I'm I'm not alone, and when I share it, I always have people come forward and Me too, me too. And I'm like, Yes, like, we, can we, you know, support one another. And fortunately, I was only in that marriage for for three years and and got out of it. Spent a couple more years in Indiana, but then when I moved back to Missouri, I learned about some blindness consumer organizations and and started getting involved with those. I also, at the same time, heard, heard about a self defense program for the blind. And I'm like, wait a minute, there's something you know that that works for us. So I jumped on it, became an instructor, became very involved in the that particular organization. And due to some some different circumstances, realized that that was not a healthy environment, and spent probably a year not doing that. But then had some people contact me to get another self defense program going, and I'm like, All right, let's do it. So yeah, that's a. Um, but I've, I've taken in that time of me teaching self defense, I also worked with my local dojo and would help with my son's classes. So I've definitely got the personal safety self defense experience down at this point, I feel like   Michael Hingson ** 15:24 so. So in other words, maybe if there were violent situation today, you could turn the tables and and be the one to beat up the other guy.   Amy SP Wilson ** 15:33 So that's you know, because I will share that, that that is you. That is a common thought.   Michael Hingson ** 15:43 I understand, yes,   Amy SP Wilson ** 15:46 however, in june 2019 I experienced sexual assault by somebody. And it's really what got me to tell people that personal safety you need to be proactive about it, especially in the disabled space. It is so very vital in that realm, yeah, but   Michael Hingson ** 16:11 yeah, there's only so much you can do. And you're right. It's, it's a matter of being, as you say, personally safe. And you know, it's, it is so important, and I think so many people, especially I think a lot of blind people I know about aren't as aware of their surroundings as they need to be, even just in in walking, even if it's not a a safety issue, that is where you're endangered from another person, but just being aware of your surroundings and being able to travel. I remember living in Boston and at the time, and I don't know if it's still the same or not today, but Boston or Massachusetts, had the highest accident rate per capita in the country, and this was back in the late 1970s into the early 1980s and I knew it, and it, it was just one of those factoids, if you will, that helped me stay really aware. So whenever I cross the street, I really made sure that the traffic was going the way I wanted to go, and I listened extremely carefully to what the traffic was doing around me, because any moment a car could come whizzing around a corner, nobody else would have seen it, and if I weren't listening for it, I might not have been able to judge appropriately whether it was safe to go or how fast I had to go to get across the street. So the reality is that we really do need to be situationally aware. And I think it's not just true for people who happen to be blind, but but it is especially true that we need to work on that and be aware of our surroundings   Amy SP Wilson ** 18:01 100% 100% that that is like, one of the first things we started offering right out the gate when it came to safety positive, is having discussions about personal safety topics, because it makes you more situationally aware. I know that. You know now that I have the mindset of being proactive about my personal safety, I am so keyed up on situational awareness that I sometimes freak out people, because I'm like, pay attention. Over there, pay attention. They're like, how? And I'm like, well, the more you learn about safety education, anything in the personal safety realm, it just helps you to become more situationally where, so you respond faster. You don't have to sit there and go, Well, what was that that I learned? No, no, that's not what we we want you to have. We want you to be, you know, kind of studying up on it so much that it becomes second nature for you?   Michael Hingson ** 19:00 Yeah, all too often we we learn something, and then we just have we, we sort of memorize the lesson. And we don't memorize what it is we really need to do. It isn't what, what did I learn? You need to get to the point where it's second nature, where it's just part of you, whether it's situational awareness or or a lot of things, even good musicians,   19:24 yes, you know,   Michael Hingson ** 19:26 do what they do because they've it's become second nature, yes.   Amy SP Wilson ** 19:30 And we, we talk about that, you know, it's, it's a journey you're not going to jump from, you know, being a beginner, you know, car guitar player, kind of like your manual musician, to being able to play on a, you know, stage with 5000 people overnight, it does not, you know, it is a process. And so, you know, giving, tell, you know, reminding people to give themselves grace. And it is a work in progress. So you know, you there's going to be deja mess. Up, but that's okay, you know, be do better tomorrow, on, on all those different situations. The   Michael Hingson ** 20:07 more you practice it, though, and the more you work on looking at lessons and looking at the things that you do and practice making them second nature, the easier it becomes. But it is a muscle the mind that you have to develop.   Amy SP Wilson ** 20:25 Yes, we, we basically tell people your, you know, your most important tool is your mind. So many people want that quick fix of having the pepper spray or, you know, this side of the other, and it's like, no, no, your mind is your most important, you know, tool in your arsenal, so take, take care of it. It's your, it's your biggest investment in life, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 20:48 and it's and it's the most important one, and it will do so much more for you. But the more you truly use it, the easier it becomes to use. But you've got to make that effort to make that happen, yes, so you got through college, you got, I think, what a degree in psychology, as I recall. And you said you went and worked on various jobs, and I gather nothing really struck a nerve.   Amy SP Wilson ** 21:15 No, you know, I, I actually went back to school and got a second bachelor's degree in social work because I knew I wanted to work with the disabled community, and so I of course, was advocating in my own classes for disability rights and driving my fellow students crazy. But I'm like, we're in social work, and we're not learning about disabilities. This is madness. You're going to be, you know, working with at least, you know, half the people have some sort of disability in some fashion, and we're not even having a conversation about it. So, but I guess I actually, before I got real involved with personal safety here, more recently, in the last couple years, I actually was a Mary Kay consultant for a while, and had had some fun with that. And it's a great, great company. They're they're real supportive. They call it kind of the pink bubble. But I learned a lot about marketing and sales through that. So I constantly am telling my team, I'm like, Yeah, that's a Mary Kay thing. That's America. But they've been around for so many years. There's obviously, like, I said, a method to their madness.   Michael Hingson ** 22:31 They kind of know what they're doing, yeah,   Amy SP Wilson ** 22:34 yeah, yeah. They've, they've got systems down. So yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 22:37 So when did you get your social work, bachelor's degree. When did you graduate with that 2016 Okay, so that was eight years ago, and then you you did other things and so on. But eventually, what, what caused you finally to form safety positive foundation.   Amy SP Wilson ** 22:58 I I essentially got madder than a hatter because we weren't offering choices. It was just this one self defense program, this one self defense program. And I'm like, Well, what about teaching people to advocate for themselves, or having discussions or this or that? Like and I kept getting shot down time and time again from from the leadership in those organizations, and I and I actually had a couple people who pulled me aside and really strongly encouraged me to start my own non for profit. And I was like, Excuse me. Like me be the leader. Uh, I don't, I don't. I don't know how I feel about this, um, but luckily they, you know, they convinced me. Had other people convinced me. And I just, it really is a big passion of mine to just make sure that the blind community has as many personal safety choices as everybody else does, because historically, we have not. So   Michael Hingson ** 24:05 you're saying some of the major consumer organizations kind of discouraged it at first. I   Amy SP Wilson ** 24:14 they were from elsewhere. Was from elsewhere. I wouldn't say some of them, you know, I'm not going to throw no shade on the major groups,   24:21 no, no, no.   Amy SP Wilson ** 24:22 But it was the companies that were teaching self defense got really only focused on just, you know, hands on self defense. And I'm like, and it was either, you know, release or break body parts. And I'm like, not everybody's comfortable breaking body parts like we need some choices. We need to teach people to advocate for themselves, to speak up. That is the like. The bigger thing that I have found is people not understanding the power of of their words and their language to, you know, get themselves out of situation. And it's usually a freeze response, and I know because I was personally guilty of that for many years. And so yeah, I'm I'm thrilled that I don't struggle with that nowhere near as much as I used to, but I can recognize that it is a huge need within our community.   Michael Hingson ** 25:20 So when did you actually form the foundation?   Amy SP Wilson ** 25:25 March 3, 2023 was when we officially launched safety positive foundation.   Michael Hingson ** 25:31 So it's fairly new. Yes, well, a year and about a year and a half old.   Amy SP Wilson ** 25:39 Yep, yep, we're still baby.   Michael Hingson ** 25:43 That's okay. Do you find that that men and women are interested in personal safety and so on, or is it just women or just men? Or what we   Amy SP Wilson ** 25:54 have both? I'd say at our events, it's half and half, I get more men volunteering to to work behind the scenes on stuff, because personal safety is primarily a male dominated profession, which makes me kind of a odd woman out. But you know, we are not for profits. I'll take the help wherever I can get.   Michael Hingson ** 26:17 Sure, well, even if you were for profit, it would make sense to do that. But yeah, I hear you, yes, yeah. So exactly, what does the safety positive foundation do?   Amy SP Wilson ** 26:32 So we offer, again, a variety of choices for personal safety. We have what we call our safety positive guide that gives our blind community, 24/7, access to training and resources. And so that's a resource all by itself, because we put in there motivational information resources, asking discussion questions. But then we also have chapters in our guide to where people can take our courses, where they can go from ProAct or from reactive to proactive on their personal safety. We also have in that guide links to what we call our weekly tea times, and that's probably one of our most popular services, and that's where we're having the space for discussions on personal safety. Each month we do a different topic, and we have also added verbal craft, which is a self advocacy and assertiveness communication training. And we've actually had that training from the very beginning, because, again, I knew, in my experience, that people really needed to learn that that advocating piece, like we're told to advocate, but never given a formula. And we finally have a formula with with verbal craft. So it makes me very excited. And then in just this year, when we started getting into our second year, we shifted away from focusing on the psychological safety to that physical safety aspect, and I became the first blind woman pepper spray instructor with saber so that was exciting. And then we created our own hands on self defense program that focuses on the fundamentals of self defense. We created this course because we knew people needed some pieces. So if they wanted to go take a, you know, martial arts class on a consistent basis, or if they wanted to go take that self defense class, they would have some language to talk with the instructors. And this is how you can assist me. And so, yeah, those, those are pretty much what we offer, but, and we're partnering with with other companies organizations to bring in more resources and training for our community. So like I said, it's only been a year and a half, but yeah, we're bringing it when it comes to the choices. Tell   Michael Hingson ** 29:13 me more about verbal craft, what, what that is all about, or how does that work? So   Amy SP Wilson ** 29:19 at the core, verbal craft was developed as a crisis de escalation communication training, and of course, for the purposes of the blind community, we realized that it also helps with teaching you self advocacy and assertiveness in your communication. So you know, say, somebody comes up and, you know, grabs your arm trying to assist you. Verbal craft has a, you know, we we work with you to develop to personalize your own formula. We also have a verbal craft club where people can come in and practice. This maybe a scenario and and get better at at their skills. I know for me when I first, because I did not even know a verbal craft again, I went to hearing about all the you know, need to advocate for yourself, and I'm like, How do I do that. But it was in November of 2022, that I I finally was able to take verbal craft. And since then, I have, I've discovered that I am even you know better at it. I don't, I don't freeze or fawn as much. And when people are trying to help me, or when people are trying to cross my my boundaries in those different ways.   Michael Hingson ** 30:48 I remember many times being in New York City or in other large cities, but New York especially, wanting to cross the street and go a particular way, waiting for the traffic flow to be going the way I wanted, and making sure that it's going the way I wanted, somebody will come up and grab me. Oh, let me. Let me help you. And of course, the problem is they don't even know for sure which way I want to go correct, which really makes life fun. And so they'll grab me and I go, No, hold on a minute. First of all, I'm really good. Do you know why I'm just standing here? No, you're, you're, obviously, you need help. No, let me explain Ricky, you know, but it is so unfortunate that people make these assumptions. And it happens all too often. It goes back to the basic view of of blindness that that people have, which is that we really don't know what we're doing and we can't really do it ourselves, that you need to have eyesight to do it, which is why earlier this year, at the National Federation of the Blind convention, I crafted the resolution that was adopted that says we need to stop using the term visually impaired and go to blind and low vision. And I mean, there are other terms, but the real issue is to get rid of the concept of impaired, which is what the professionals brought to the field many years ago, which was such a disservice.   Amy SP Wilson ** 32:18 Yeah, I can, I can agree, the word impaired is not the greatest term we want to be be using in that realm. And yeah, in in all my teaching of of self defense, the people coming up and grabbing is the number one frustration that that we deal with as a as a blind community, and it's the reason that people want to learn self defense, because they want to be able to figure out, how do I get myself out of this situation? And that's where you know verbal craft is that that first step of, if you can talk them down, that's that's the ideal situation. And then, of course, we're going to be bringing more choices of they don't want to do that. That's okay. We got some other skills. Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 33:05 Well, and it's important to really learn to use all the skills that we have available, which is, of course, something that gets back to the whole issue of using your mind. And that's just something that all too often, well, if I were really abusive, I'd say that's something that every politician should learn to do, is use their mind, but they haven't learned that yet. So that's another story. But, oh, that was That was mean, but, but the reality is that that we need to learn to listen better than we do.   Amy SP Wilson ** 33:40 Well, I mean, the common thing is you have two ears and one mouth, because you're supposed to do twice as much listening, and that also plays a lot into the situational awareness is, you know, sometimes you have to just stop talking so you can pay attention to what, what is going on on around you, right? I know, like with my friends and my team. They know if I'm stopped talking, they need to start paying attention themselves, because I don't usually stop mid sentence. I'm like, wait a minute, what? You know, I start kind of perking my ears and, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've got, we've created different code words and stuff like that to help, you know, everybody be on the same page, to support people in that, that journey too   Michael Hingson ** 34:21 cool. Well, it's important. So what are the basic core values, the the core things that go into safety, positive foundation and that kind of guide what you do.   Amy SP Wilson ** 34:33 So we have five core values. One is safety, of course, um, innovation, because we are, I've been told numerous times we are pioneering new paths with what we're we're bringing in, so that's and we're always looking for other other things that the community needs to bring in as well. We also have potential as one of them, because. Do believe in the potential of of people in general, and then we also have agency because we want we strongly believe in people having choices when it comes to their personal safety and authenticity. Is our last one, and this one, it it took a little bit to get everybody on board, because I am very authentic myself. And so they were like, we're not talking about you. And I'm like, I know that like but you know, people feel safer when they can be them, their authentic selves, and that's what we want to support, is you know you getting comfortable with you and knowing that you have those you know, choices, potential and and those things. So we, we strongly believe in our core values   Michael Hingson ** 35:55 and and having the ability, or learning to have the ability to analyze who you are, what you do, what you're doing, and when necessary, make changes or to reaffirm that what you do is a good thing, whatever it is.   Amy SP Wilson ** 36:11 Yes, yeah. So, you know, sometimes people need that permission to, you know, change their mind or be on the path that they're they're being on on our on our tea times. I am very well known for telling people, does anybody have questions, comments, concerns or emotional outburst? And because I want to give people that space to you know they need to just yell it out. Yell it out. We're here to support you. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 36:40 sometimes that's important and necessary to do absolutely. Why is the foundation called safety positive Foundation?   Amy SP Wilson ** 36:50 We created that name. And actually I created that name because I got tired of the fear mongering that was going on with the self defense organizations and programs that already existed in the blind community. In fact, I had been told one time that I needed to be more negative and in pitching, you know, and trying to scare people. And I'm like, I refuse. I will not do that. Our community is already scared enough. And No way am I, you know, going to hammer home all the the statistics and stuff like that, people, people already have fear. And so in that I played around with words, of course, I have SP in the middle of my my name. And so I was like, Well, you know, safety positive, like, we're all about safety. We want to be positive. And then one of my board members was like, well, we need to add, you know, foundation, because, you know, we're building a foundation here. And I'm like, there it is, safety, positive Foundation was born just based off of the collection of all that. There   Michael Hingson ** 38:14 you go. And and it works. How is it different from mother, self defense and similar kinds of organizations. Because I'm I'm sure that you feel that it is definitely different. Yes,   Amy SP Wilson ** 38:29 yes, we have created it different from the beginning. Because when we launched, we focused on psychological safety, it people would ask me, well, where's the hands on? I'm like, Nope, we're not, we're not doing it yet, because psychological safety needs to be that first step on your on your journey, especially if you have a lot of fear when it when it comes to personal safety. So that was the the mindset that we intentionally chose. The other thing that I would say that probably differentiates us is, of course, the choices and that as of right now, we don't have it to where you can sign up, pay a bunch of money and become an instructor in our program we're not interested in making making money off of that. We are interested in bringing people in as instructors at some point, and we've talked about doing that next year, but we want to be very mindful of how that approach works, because people have gotten trained in other programs, and then they go off and do their own thing, and we're like no, because we want to make sure that the curriculum you were teaching is safety, positive focus. We don't want people running off and trying to fear monger like they had been taught. Before. So that's that's our method to our madness.   Michael Hingson ** 40:05 Well, I may not know that the whole idea of fear is a subject that is near and dear to me, because recently, I published a new book called Live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave while becoming adversity and moving forward in faith. And the whole idea behind the book is to get people to understand that they can learn to control fear and that you don't need to have fear forced on you. And the reality is that all the negative aspects of fear that you've been talking about is what promotes fear. And I picked on politicians before, but that's what they do. They promote fear to a very large degree themselves, and promoting all this fear just makes people negative. They make it makes people be mistrustful. And the fact of the matter is that if we really learn to understand fear, which also is involved in developing the mind, as we've been talking about. But if we really focus on understanding fear, what we learn is that we can control fear, and that fear can be a very powerful tool to help us. So it isn't about not being afraid, it's about using that fear to focus and not let it, as I would say, blind or overwhelm you.   Amy SP Wilson ** 41:24 Yes, again, 100% agreeing with you on that, the more that you can. I'd say they're, they're, say, lean into the fear and make it your friend that you know that that helps so much. It's also part of that muscle memory of going, Okay, I don't need to be fearful in this situation. And we actually talk about that in our verbal craft training, how the brain, your brain state works when you know something happens to you, and how you can move through that   Michael Hingson ** 42:04 well, and that's exactly right. The issue is moving through it. I mean, just something happens. I mean, I was in the World Trade Center on September 11, and something happened. Right? So there's a lot to be afraid of, but if you prepare and learn to control your own mind, then that fear becomes a very powerful tool to help you focus and learning to listen to that inner voice is one of the most important things that we can ever do in our lives.   Amy SP Wilson ** 42:38 Yes, I I've actually used my personal safety training to help me to heal from some of my past traumas. And, you know, even to the point where practicing certain techniques that had been, you know, done on me to how do I get out of this? And that really, you know, at the, you know, the first few times, oh, yeah, anxiety was real high. And sure, the more you lean into it, the more you work through it, it can be helpful. The unfortunate part is, for some situations, like what you went through in 911 Ain't nobody preparing you for that   Michael Hingson ** 43:17 well, but not directly, but what you learn? But what what you learn? So like with me in September 11, I learned all about emergency evacuations. I learned all about where things were in the World Trade Center. And I learned just and I mentioned being in Boston and dealing with unexpected street crossings with cars coming, and all that you learn how to deal with surprise, yeah, and so it wasn't like there was anything magically brand new at the World Trade Center. So all of the skills, all of the life preparation for for me over the previous 51 years. Ooh, that gives away my age, but all that life preparation made it possible to learn to and actually control fear, so that I was able to use it in a constructive way, which is what the whole point is.   Amy SP Wilson ** 44:17 Yes, and that's why we, I think we've mentioned, like, the more you can learn, the more those things won't surprise you, and you're going to be ready to handle when life's throwing you curve balls,   Michael Hingson ** 44:30 right? And life tends to have a habit of doing that.   Amy SP Wilson ** 44:34 Yeah, universe has since humor that's pretty it does have a sense   Michael Hingson ** 44:39 of humor, but when it's throwing the curve balls, you can learn to hit those curve balls. So it's okay, yes, it's not a it's not a bad thing. How is the community reacting to safety, positive foundation and what you're doing and so on?   Amy SP Wilson ** 44:56 Overwhelming happiness in. Anytime I tell people we are here to offer choices, I've heard statements like, Finally, thank goodness. And I know from our trainings that that we offer it's been completely game changing for for people who went through our trainings, they they feel way more safe. We actually had one of our community people that flat out told me, if it was not for safety positive foundation, I would not have went to the National Federation of the Blind convention, because they just didn't feel like they were prepared. And I think it was a combination of learning things, and then, of course, us being there to help support them if something happened. But yeah, that was, I was floored when I heard that statement. I was like, do what that was. That was us. So we're bringing people out of their houses.   Michael Hingson ** 45:55 Well, things happen at conventions, and unfortunately, I don't know of any convention where things of one sort or another don't happen to one degree or another. So it is a matter of being prepared, but it's also a matter of monitoring yourself and knowing what you're going to allow yourself to get into and not get into to a degree as well. Yes,   Amy SP Wilson ** 46:17 absolutely. And like before we went, we had a safety briefing for our community to give them the rundown, and it was so overwhelming. I'm like, okay, apparently we're going to keep doing this because they they just they felt more prepared and safe for for those different things, and knew if something did happen, what policies procedures to follow, or who to who to be able to contact? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 46:44 and the National Federation has become a little bit more aware, and yes, they have, has helped in that process, which is, which is also a good thing.   Amy SP Wilson ** 46:56 Yes, I would very much agree with that as well. But,   Michael Hingson ** 47:00 but people do need to really take responsibility for themselves and their own actions, and so doing what you do clearly helps, I would think so. So, what role do partnerships play in what you do, and how is that affecting everything?   Amy SP Wilson ** 47:20 So when we with our partners, we bring in different people for different reasons, but essentially, it's to make sure our community has more resources for their personal safety. For example, we have partnered with Ali slaughter, who teaches yoga that you know, yoga can be very beneficial in so many ways. We also have partnered with NaVi lens to start, start working with them, because they are a company that offers these special cute like their specialized QR codes, but it can help you to navigate different areas. But not only that, you can create your own it's not like you got to wait for the company to do it. So you can label things around your house, where it'll be able to you know which remote or which seasoning. And the part I really like is it does it in multiple different languages, so it's not just a one and done deal. And then we've also partnered. Our most recent partner is Penny forward, and they teach financial literacy for the blind. And I'm like, financial safety, it is a thing like we seems like a very natural partnership here. So, yeah, yeah, we're, again, we partner with with people that are interested and helping the blind community become more safe.   Michael Hingson ** 48:47 Do you just work with the blind community, or do sighted or any persons without traditional disabilities ever become involved and become students and so on?   Amy SP Wilson ** 48:58 So we actually, we've had some sighted people attend our trainings and and events, and we are working behind the scenes to develop some different trainings for sighted individuals so they can communicate and interact with the blind community in a safe fashion, or just the disabled community, but there's, there's so much information, you know, out there, I feel like a lot of sighted people kind of don't know where to go, how to how to do stuff, and so we wanted to build that bridge of communication between the sighted or the non disabled world and the disabled community. I'd also like to note that, you know blind people typically, blindness is not their only concern. You know, sometimes people have mental health struggles. You. People or other types of disabilities. So we do work with other disabilities as as a result, we're not we, because we're a not for profit and we're new. We got to sort of niche down to the blind community, but we are happy to serve the disabled community as well, because from what I'm learning all disabilities lack personal safety choices.   Michael Hingson ** 50:27 They do or think they do, or probably both, which is, which is, it amounts to the same thing. Yes, we met, certainly through the NFB convention. Then also, I know that Sheldon Lewis from accessibe has reached out to you guys and, and I don't know   Amy SP Wilson ** 50:45 that's you know, you made me forget about the I've my apologies to accessibe, but yes, they are also one of our newest partners, making, yeah, making our website accessible we're happy to share With our other friends and stuff like, yeah, I, I love Sheldon from from access to be. He's one of my new friends, whether he wants it or not, but yeah, it's, it's pleasure that we're, we're also working with access to be as well.   Michael Hingson ** 51:18 That's pretty cool. I haven't been to the site and looked at it yet. I should really go visit the website. But because I've been now with accessibe for, oh, three and a half years, it'll be four years in January. So having a lot of fun, and again, I like the philosophy that it deals with a variety of different kinds of disabilities. And you're right. The fact is that whether whether we bring it upon ourselves or it's real, and it's probably both, we end up not having a lot of choices that we should have. But I think that that's what we need to do, as you point out, is to learn to advocate for ourselves, to bring those choices back into our lives.   Amy SP Wilson ** 52:06 Yes, you know, when I was talking with Sheldon from accessibe about us partnering with them, I said, Absolutely, because not only will it ensure our website's accessible, but I'm happy to tell people about it, because when blind people cannot navigate a website, it, it plays a big role into their psychological safety. And I mean, I, I'm a Mental Health First Aid person, you know, certified person, and I my joke was I needed Mental Health First Aid training to go through the training like it stressed me out, because it was so inaccessible, and I had to have people continuously helping me. And I actually had to take the course twice because of the lack of accessibility that that first go around and had to have people help me and stuff. And I'm like, This is crazy, like, we definitely need to to promote that more. And I'm so glad that they're just, you know, willing to work with with non for profits that are serving the disabled space like that, that that is going to be game changing for so many people and help them to feel more psychologically safe in going to those websites, they're not going to get stressed out and figuring out, how do I navigate this? Nope. Accessibe has got you so,   Michael Hingson ** 53:31 you know, here's a question, and I've asked a number of people this, but I'm curious to hear your answer. You mentioned earlier that we're not really involved in a lot of the conversations, whether it be about self defense, whether it be about personal safety and so on. Why is it that that blind or in general, persons with disabilities aren't involved in the conversations?   Amy SP Wilson ** 53:55 That is a great question. And I think that for some topics, it goes back to fear of being vulnerable in sharing what, what you're afraid of, at least for for personal safety. For some topics, they're they're hot topics, we discuss weapons and safety positive foundation and tell people, if that's a choice you want, we're happy to have the conversation. But people think that talking about weapons means that people are going to start buying firearms and getting involved with it, or bad things can happen, and that's where I go back to the if we're having a conversation about it, you can ask your questions and not have that fear wrapped around those particular topics, but that would be my personal answer,   Michael Hingson ** 54:56 yeah, I think all too often, suddenly. Weapons are the easy answer, yes, but they're not, no, they're not at all. But that's what people think. And they think that's going to take care of all of their fears. And it just doesn't work that way,   Amy SP Wilson ** 55:11 because often and it's statistically backed up, you know, oftentimes, those things will get turned on you, especially if you're not doing ongoing practice, and that's part of that proactive philosophy we talk about in safety positive is if you're choosing to use any kind of tool or device, you better be practicing with it at least once a month, minimum. And depending on the tool we're recommending even stronger practicing. But you you know, you can't just buy a pepper spray, drop it in your purse and you're good. It's like, no, because what happens when they do come to grab you? You're going to be finagling and but yeah, and then   Michael Hingson ** 55:59 you aim it the wrong way because you're not used to it. Yep, exactly. And it's and it's so important that, well, again, it goes back to like what we talked about before, with the mind, which is the most important tool that we have. And if we don't develop that tool by constant, and I believe it has to be constant use and constant us teaching ourselves we're not going to improve with it.   Amy SP Wilson ** 56:28 Exactly you. I mean, we are blessed right now that we have as much technology at at our fingertips to be able to phone a friend or use that app to help us cross the street, whatever the case might be, but technology fails, and so you can't say that this is going to be my, my backup for for everything, or for one of the things that I've learned is you Can't take your pepper spray through, you know, TSA. And there's certain things that, no, no, no, TSA, don't like it. So if you get too used to one kind of tool, it gets taken well, then what do you do? You have to have your own, your own mind to go, okay, I can handle this without all the fancy gizmos and gadgets.   Michael Hingson ** 57:18 Yeah. And, and TSA does what it does generally, for pretty good reasons. Yes,   Amy SP Wilson ** 57:25 yes, yeah, I understand their method to the madness. Yeah, it's still frustrating. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 57:30 I know it is. You come all prepared, and then they take it away from you when, yeah, yeah. So of course, the the answer to that is you've got to put it somewhere in a bag where it's not reachable while you're on the flight. But that's another story   Amy SP Wilson ** 57:48 conversation for another day. Not that I'm talking about a short list that they will things that will get through TSA, but   Michael Hingson ** 57:55 well, how? Let me ask this. Then I think a relevant question, what are the future goals for safety positive Foundation?   Amy SP Wilson ** 58:05 We want to be the safety institution for the mind community, and so that's why we're we're very interested in bringing on more choices for trainings and working with different partners. So you know, when people think of personal safety in the blind community, their first thought is safety positive Foundation,   Michael Hingson ** 58:35 and that's pretty important to be able to do for you what's been the most rewarding experience you've had with safety positive foundation,   Amy SP Wilson ** 58:46 I would have to say it's watching the community grow as individuals like I said, you know, the one person that said, you know, if It wasn't for safety positive, I and I've heard, you know, other people telling me that they they feel safer and just learning different stuff, and that that is the the paycheck for me when I know we're we're making a difference in in people's lives, sometimes it makes me want to cry. I get, you know, so overwhelmed, but I I essentially do not want people to go through what I've went through in my life. And so the more that we can reach people and offer those resources and trainings that again, that that's what's going to do it for me,   Michael Hingson ** 59:46 so especially for blind people. But in general, what would be the message that you would most like for the community to hear from you regarding safety and safety positive foundation? Yeah.   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:00:00 When it comes to, I guess, sharing with the sighted community, be aware I'm teaching them that no is a complete sentence, and they don't gotta give you their backstory of why they don't want to accept your help, and if somebody doesn't want to take your assistance. Don't take it personal. That you know, there's so many people who do take it personal. When you tell them, No, I've got this. It's not about you. It's about people having the dignity and respect for themselves to sometimes do things on their own, or talk to you about how maybe you can assist them in a in a in a different manner, but yeah, just just don't take it personal. And no, you're also probably going to mess up a time or two. You're not You're not always going to get it perfect, because I know me as a person in the community, I mess it up sometimes.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:01 You know, there's a lot of value in getting lost. And I, I worked in the World Trade Center a lot to get lost, because when you get lost, then you gotta figure out, how did you get lost, and how do you get out of being lost, and people helping isn't going to give you that learning experience of recovering, or, you know, using what we call whole structured discovery. The bottom line is, yeah, yeah, go ahead. I   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:01:30 say. I love the structured discovery. My whole organization, my board, yeah, when, when they like. I've got a couple of sighted board members, and they were new to the blind community, but knew it needed, you know, they were the ones who convinced me to start this. But once they learned about structured discovery, they were like, This is awesome, like, because I tell them, you know, don't help people, let them figure it out. And they watch, and they learned real fast that, okay, yeah, there is a method to the madness here.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:04 Yeah, it's, it's important to be able to deal with, deal with, with variety of things. And you're going to be best if you teach yourself how to recover from being lost very quickly. What is structured discovery?   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:02:24 So my understanding, because I've not been given the quote, unquote definition, is where you you have an environment to where you are, um, walking through it yourself and and discovering your your environment on your own with your your white cane, your your guide dog, but you're essentially like, yeah, discovering the the environment on your own accord. Michael, you might have a different answer, but that's that's my, my understanding well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:00 and the other part of it is you're walking along, you expect to be going somewhere, and suddenly you discover you're not where you thought you were, or you walk on grass and you didn't expect to be there. Structured discovery also teaches you how what you do is you step back, mentally and then physically. But you step back, you go back and retrace what you did to figure out where it is that you deviated from the path that you were expecting to be on. And it works very well.   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:03:33 I've used it and all the traveling I do, yes, I've gotten lost and had to backtrack. And how did we do this? Where did we go wrong? And believe me, I'll never forget those routes.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:48 Tell me how. So how do people get involved in the safety positive foundation? If they would like to.   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:03:57 So there's a couple different options. You can go to our website, at safety positive fdn.org, you can also we have a YouTube channel with lots of videos on on different information, and we have our Facebook page, the Facebook page and our website has links where you can come In and be part of our safety positive guide community, or you can also email us, phone call, just don't say send smoke signals. We're not going   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:31 to get those. Yeah, don't raise your hand. Don't raise your hand. That doesn't work. No,   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:04:35 no, no. It's lost on us.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:39 Yeah, it is on all of us, which is what's okay, it's always something to be learned. Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to be here with us for more than the last hour. It's been fun, and I hope that that people have learned something from it. We'll definitely get to see you next. At the NFB convention, I assume, and that'll be kind of fun too.   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:05:02 Yes, we're going to be there with bells on. There you   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:05 go. Well, we'll, we'll be there. Yeah, and, and I'll, I'll bring my dog over, and either he'll teach self defense or he'll learn self defense. I'm not, there we go. He'll probably be looking for ear scratches and nothing else. So it's okay. We all,   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:05:24 we all need a little love from time to time. Yeah, yeah, and he's   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:27 good at that. Well, well, thank you again for being here. This has been absolutely enjoyable, and if you've enjoyed listening to us, please let us know you can email me at Michael H I M, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, you can also go to our podcast page, where there's a contact form, and that's w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S o, n.com/podcast. We'd love to hear from you, and wherever you're listening or monitoring our podcast today, I hope that you'll give us a five star review. We really value your reviews. We appreciate it if you know of anyone and Amy you as well. If you know of anyone who you think might be a good guest for the podcast, we'd like to hear from you. We'd like you to provide an introduction. We're always looking for people who want to come on and tell their stories and help all of us see why we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. So I want to thank you all for for that as well. And Amy, once again, really appreciate you being here today. This has been a lot of fun. I   Amy SP Wilson ** 1:06:38 appreciate it, and I will end with my two cents of keep it safe, keep it positive and keep it safe and positive.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:06:50 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week. Amy SP Wilson, the trailblazer behind the Safety Positive Foundation, is revolutionizing personal safety for the blind and visually impaired community. Her journey began in March of 2023, but her path has been shaped by a diverse range of experiences. Some have been uplifting, while others have been challenging, but each one has served as a valuable lesson that propelled her towards the creation of the Safety Positive Foundation. Amy's commitment to personal safety has been a lifelong pursuit. From playfully wrestling with her cousins during her early years to becoming the first female wrestler at the Missouri School for the Blind in 1996, her passion for wrestling led her to the United States Association of Blind Athletes nationals in 1997, where she discovered Judo. In 1998, Amy proudly represented her country in the World Championships for the Blind in Judo, as a member of the inaugural women's Judo team of the USABA, all before graduating from high school. Unfortunately, Amy's eye condition, Stargardt's, prevented her from continuing her martial arts journey. Diagnosed at the age of 10 in 1992, she faced initial struggles. However, connecting with others who were also blind or visually impaired raised her expectations and inspired her to persevere. As life progressed, Amy earned her first bachelor's degree in psychology, only to become a survivor of domestic violence shortly thereafter. This was not her first experience as a survivor, and it is one of the primary reasons why she advocates for self-empowerment. Amy is deeply passionate about addressing the alarming rates of mental and emotional abuse within relationships involving individuals with disabilities. Amy's pursuit of knowledge led her to earn a second bachelor's degree in social work, providing her with valuable insights into developing systems within the Safety Positive Foundation. She consistently puts her education into practice, utilizing her expertise to make a difference. For the past decade, Amy has been involved in instructing and developing self-defense programs specifically designed for the blind and visually impaired. However, she found that these programs and organizations often had limited expectations for the BVI community, which did not align with her mission. Amy firmly believes that low expectations act as barriers, and she advocates for the BVI community to have unlimited choices when it comes to personal safety. Amy has dedicated her life to making this mission a reality for her community. She actively engages with the BVI community in various capacities, striving to enhance their lives as much as possible. Through the establishment of the Safety Positive Foundation, Amy shares her skills and empowers her community to embrace a safety-positive lifestyle. Ways to connect with Amy: Amy's digital business card link https://linqapp.com/ Book a meeting with me https://bit.ly/3LOviXT Website www.safetypositivefdn.org Facebook https://bit.ly/4fvKMO4 YouTube https://bit.ly/4d5FQy2 TikTok https://bit.ly/3LO9Ja1 LinkedIn https://bit.ly/4fvRbsE Instagram https://bit.ly/4duJq4B Contact info amyspwilson@safetypositivefdn.org 660-441-1907 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Tyler Mills grew up and lives in what he calls “rural America”. His home is about an hour outside Iowa City and is indeed by any standard not an urban environment. Tyler also happens to be a person with a disability: he has Cerebral Palsy and uses a wheelchair. He has a degree in Human Resources Management from Bellevue University.   Tyler, through his company Mills Marketing Services has spent his adult life working to advocate on behalf of persons with disabilities especially in the rural portions of America. Tyler and I talk quite a bit about Rural America which he points out is dying right in front of us. He feels that a significant part of the challenges faced throughout America, especially in the less populated areas, comes from our move away from politically moderate leaders. He points out that this is not a partisan situation. He writes about his beliefs in his book “Death of the Blue Dogs”. The book discusses the political changes we are facing in this country and how those changes are severely impacting the economic fortunes of people in rural America. Of course, he also ties in the ways political changes are negatively effecting persons with disabilities again especially in rural environments. “Blue Dogs” were and still are politicians with relatively moderate views who put community over personal gain. You will hear all about them during our conversation.   My discussion with Tyler is fascinating and far ranging as you can imagine. I think this episode will be quite thought provoking and I hope you enjoy listening to it.       About the Guest:   I am a freelancer writer, the owner of Mills Marketing Services and a 2022 graduate of Bellevue University with a degree in Human Resources Management,  I have also worked in numerous national and local political campaigns.  Political consulting is something that I am passionate about.  I want to try to bring more people together o fix problems, instead of emphasizing our differences.    I am the author of the essay “Death of the Blue Dogs.” The book talks about the impact of the political changes in rural America, and how those recent changes have impacted the economic fortunes of the people that live there. Rural America has to get a realistic chance to win some of the venture capital resources that are out there to compete for economic development projects on a global scale.   I seek to be a voice for people with disabilities, particularly in the area of employment. There are still far too many barriers for the disabled when they seek employment, some of those barriers may have been unintentional when they were first proposed.   Ways to connect with Tyler:   https://www.lulu.com/shop/tyler-mills/death-of-the-blue-dogs-how-the-demise-of-the-blue-dogs-harmed-the-country-created-qanon-voters/paperback/product-42n9wy.html?q=Blue+Dogs&page=1&pageSize=4     Also available on Amazon:   https://www.amazon.com/Death-Blue-Dogs-Explaining-Politics/dp/1312517646/ref=sr_1_14?crid=178TODTDMZ3TR&keywords=Blue+Dogs&qid=1690048552&s=books&sprefix=blue+dogs%2Cstripbooks%2C324&sr=1-14   Abe Books:   https://www.abebooks.com/9781312517646/Death-Blue-Dogs-Demise-Harmed-1312517646/plp   Locally at Burlington by the Book:   https://www.midwestbooksellers.org/independent-bookstore-directory/burlington-by-the-book   Mills Marketing Services Contact Page:   https://www.facebook.com/p/Mills-Marketing-Services-100063553481698/?_rdr   Twitter Account:   https://twitter.com/tmills43   LinkedIn Profile:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/tyler-mills-93b14a24/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Well, hi everyone. I am your host, Mike hingson, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here with us.  We really appreciate you coming and spending a little bit of time with us. And today we get to chat with Tyler Mills, who I find to be an interesting soul. Why do I say that? Well, he is a writer, among other things, and I'm really interested to hear about his his book that he's written. He's a freelancer writer. He is also the owner of Bill's marketing services, and he's worked on a whole bunch of political campaigns and in the political world, and I'm really interested in talking about that. I've done some things around Washington in the past, and had a lot of fun doing it, and met some interesting legislators and Congress people and so on. But sounds like he's done a whole lot more than I have, and I'm really interested to to get into that and and I know he's very interested in talking about rural America, and we're going to do that as well. So with all that in the background, Tyler, welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you? Thank you, Michael. I'm doing great. Well. We really appreciate you being here with us. Why don't we start as I love to do? Why don't you tell us about kind of the early Tyler, growing up and some of that stuff? Yeah,   Tyler Mills ** 02:39 basically, I've grown up here in southeastern Iowa. It's, I'm about an hour away from Iowa City, the University of Iowa, and it's a really great community to grow up in. I actually live in Keokuk, Iowa. We're right on the Mississippi River. Our main, our main industry, is a, you know, high fructose corn syrup. So it's a, it's not necessarily everyone's favorite topic or favorite industry out there, but that's what we mainly do in Keokuk, Iowa. And I've actually done a little bit of, you know, work with people that have developed websites for them and in the past. And that's part of what I've done with Mills marketing. And then I've also, you know, lobbied for different causes regarding disability rights and disability employment issues around Southeast Iowa. So what got   Michael Hingson ** 03:37 you interested in dealing with disability rights and advocating as you do.   Tyler Mills ** 03:41 I I realized as I got into the workforce, so many people that are in similar situations as I am, they're they're either not getting the opportunities that or they're afraid to break out and take those opportunities. I think it's a situation where the system is not always as conducive to employment as it should be. I think that, I think that there are a lot of employers who would be willing to employ more people with disabilities, but they don't know how to navigate the different barriers and parameters themselves. And I think they're, I think they're scared. I think they're afraid that, you know, there's going to be a liability on their on their in their facility, I you know there's, there's a lot of different   Michael Hingson ** 04:32 elements there, yeah. Do you have a disability yourself, a cerebral palsy? Okay, so that's, are you and are you in a wheelchair? Or do you have that much CP? Or, yeah, I could   Tyler Mills ** 04:47 find a wheelchair. You are okay.   Michael Hingson ** 04:51 Well, my wife, for her whole life, was in a wheelchair. She didn't have cerebral palsy. She had scar tissue on her spinal cord at the t3 level. So she was a t3 para, and we lost her in 2022 we were married 40 years. So as I tell people, and I will always say, no matter what anyone says, She's monitoring somewhere. And if I'm not a good kid, I'm going to hear about it. So I gotta try to make sure I'm a good kid. Yeah, don't want to get in trouble with her, you know. But anyway, and,   Tyler Mills ** 05:26 yeah, go ahead, I was just gonna say, I, I really, I in the in the last few years, I really started to look at the statistics dealing with employment amongst the disability community, and we've really made a lot of progress. And I don't want to imply that we we haven't made a lot of progress, because we have, but we're still at around 23% of people with what's classified as a disability under the ADA employment, which is not bad, 23% a lot better than I, better than I had previously been. But we really didn't even start charting those statistics until 2008   Michael Hingson ** 06:02 right? So yeah, and I know the unemployment rate among employable blind people is still much higher than that, but still it is progress, and it's not at the 70% where it was when I was growing up and in college and just going from college to the workforce. So we're better, but we're we've got a long way to go. And you know, why do you think that is? Why do you think that we still aren't really in anywhere near the norm, like for people who don't have traditional disabilities, people,   Tyler Mills ** 06:35 people are scared that they're going to lose their health insurance by going out into the workforce. That's that, I think, is the main barrier. And I think employers are scared to offer a full, certainly, a full health insurance package to someone that is disabled, and then if you make a certain amount of money, you no longer become eligible for the program. Or SSI, right? That you need to survive,   Michael Hingson ** 07:01 yeah, well, but the other side of that is that, typically, in a group health environment, disabilities aren't supposed to be a factor.   Tyler Mills ** 07:12 You would like to think so. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 07:15 yeah, as I say, supposed to be what I guess. What I'm getting at is, if you look at the paperwork and you look at the rules of typical group insurance, disabilities aren't included, that doesn't they're not an issue, but that doesn't mean that they're not but group insurance doesn't measure directly whether you happen to have a disability or Not. Yeah,   Tyler Mills ** 07:40 it's really, it's really bad, because I find it, at least, I found in most states, we're down to basically one giant insurer for almost every single state, at least it seems to be in, at least in my research. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but, you know, I do wish there were more options just anyone it was seeking private insurance so they could be, you know, as as self sufficient as they would like to be, yeah, basically we, you know, as as great as the Affordable Care Act is, in many ways, it's still, it really hasn't challenged the monopoly that we still have in the private insurance market. So,   Michael Hingson ** 08:19 yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's why I was real specific in saying the insurance I'm talking about is company group insurance, which is a little bit different in a lot of ways than typical private insurance and life insurance, although none of us could get life insurance policies until the early to mid 1980s because insurance companies plane said we were a higher risk. And it took a major effort and enough consumers rising up to get state legislatures to pass a law that said that you can't discriminate against persons based on a disability unless you can show actuarial statistics or evidentiary data. And nobody's been able to do that yet,   Tyler Mills ** 09:07 which is wonderful, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 09:09 yeah. Well, there's a whole story I was very much involved in that. I actually led that fight. I was living at the time in Massachusetts, so I led that fight. But there, you know, there are other aspects of insurance that are still issues in a lot of the kinds of other insurance, other than life insurance that we would like, like health insurance and so on. You're right. It's, it's, it's still a major challenge, and it's all really based on prejudice, though.   Tyler Mills ** 09:40 Well, I and I think that some employers also automatically assume that they could only get a half day out of us when we go to work. And depending upon how, you know, physically or mentally straining the work is, they automatically say, Well, I can only get a half day out of them, or maybe three hours. A day out of them, and what I think that we have a well, I mean, obligation is not the right word, but we, I am, during my time in the workforce, I've tried to prove some of these people wrong, that we that we can do a full day's work, at least I and I've been blessed to be able to have that opportunity. So many people that would like to have that opportunity, I'm not, do not have the chance because, yeah, they face a lot deeper challenges than I do, right? Well,   Michael Hingson ** 10:30 and when I asked the question before about why is the unemployment rate so high, another part of the answer that I would give is, and it gets back to part of what you're saying in a different way, but we're not included in the conversation. We are left out. And you're right. Employers and so many people make assumptions, and we've had things like sheltered workshops that have contributed to that, and a number of agencies around the country, so called rehabilitation agencies have contributed to that by not really being strong advocates. And the bottom line is though, that we really can work a full day, and for those people who physically may not be able to to do as much as other people would be able to do, it also may mean that what we really need to do is to look at what the right job for them would be, so that they could do as much work as anyone else. And that's also a big part of it.   Tyler Mills ** 11:29 And we were struggling with my internet and we probably still are. That's that's another issue here in rural America. If you want to be able to work from home, you're still going to be struggling your internet connection a lot of the time. So we've, we that was, Well, part of my book is about, uh, death of the Blue Dogs. I want to to people to understand what, what, regardless of your, whatever your politics happen to be, you should want access to the internet so people can can be, you know, working and be productive and be taxpayers, and, you know, feel good about their day. And there may be some people that don't want to work, but in my, in my experience, I've always felt like work and the dignity of work has given me a purpose, as, you know, as made me just feel better about my day. And I I'm not that may not be for everyone, but it certainly has helped me. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 12:24 I would also point out or submit that maybe for some of those people who don't want to work again, even there they may be prejudice and thinking they can't work and so they don't want to, and I'm sure there are some who just want to use the system, but I think there, there are a lot of people who haven't learned to have the confidence to stand up and really fight for for their right To be in the workforce and in the system.   Tyler Mills ** 13:02 And another aspect of this is, I think at least within rural America, I think right now, our and within the country at large, I think the venture capital dollars are getting spent in they're being too concentrated to one part of the country or the other. And if there was a way that we could convince people to spread that opportunity around a little bit better. I think that would be helpful as well. Yeah, I'm   Michael Hingson ** 13:27 sure, I'm sure that it would be helpful. Well, you mentioned the book. Tell me what? What are Blue Dogs?   Tyler Mills ** 13:34 Blue Dogs are a group of moderate to conservative Democrats, and I didn't really want to write this as a partisan book. What I wanted to do is write this as a book saying rule America needs to elect legislators that care about their constituencies. They go out there and use and appropriate tax dollars to make sure that our roads are functional, to make sure that we have access to internet, clean water, you know, schools with top notch technology so we can learn everything that we need to learn about it with to be able to be competitive in a global economy. Because basically what happened the Blue Dog Democrats were started in the early 1990s as a response to what many people viewed as, you know, Bill Clinton being too liberal. And Bill Bill Clinton did. He did race raise some taxes on some people at the beginning of his administration. So basically, the there was a group of about 30 or 40 Democratic legislators who said, We've got to kind of create our own group, and it could sort of like find the middle ground between what they consider to be too liberal. And Bill Clinton and yet too conservative to to jump to the Republican caucus. So, so they basically said, we're in the middle and we're being squeezed blue. So that's kind of where that term comes from.   Michael Hingson ** 15:13 Got it. You know? It's interesting. I I grew up, went to college in the 1970s and so on. And I've been a member of the National Federation of the Blind since 1972 and I remember going to several national conventions and also being very involved in dealing with things in Washington. And while one party is more conservative than the other, what's really interesting is that the emphasis on disabilities and supporting disabilities, at least to a degree, has shifted from the Republicans, who really were more champions earlier, but are much less so now, just because they've taken a completely different position about spending money and so on, but they're not the champions in general. That is that that the Democrats are,   Tyler Mills ** 16:14 and I would like to see the Republican Party get back to that, because if they if they believe in self reliance and independence and making people feel good about having something to do in their lives and being as functional as they can be. This should. This is a non partisan issue. Yeah, not non ideological, because all you're doing is you're creating you're creating jobs if, if someone with a disability can go out and become an entrepreneur and, let's say, hire three to four people. You know that that really, it may not seem like much on paper, but it can make a big difference in a community. It really can. So I, I and I, I think that you can still have a sense of community and still be, you know, be a rugged individualist at the same time, and I unfortunately, maybe within the Republican Party, they kind of, right now, only want that rugged individualism. And I think in order to have a functional society, you have to have some sort of a sense of community as well.   Michael Hingson ** 17:17 Well, I I agree. I think there's we're losing a lot of of our sense of community, and we become so fractured as a society that it's really difficult to talk and form community. And how do we get back to to that? How do we get back to people being able to share ideas, to have legitimate discourse? And also have different opinions, and people respect that, so we can discuss it and discuss them, but at the same time, we don't just blast everyone because they're different than we are. We get back.   Tyler Mills ** 17:58 We have to realize that our children go to the same public schools together. We still, we still go to the same churches. There's still some people who still go to the bowling allies together. I social media and social media marketing is great. I've been in that industry for quite a while myself, but we've kind of used that technology to go into our own little corners, and we just kind of follow the road we want to follow, instead of considering other points of view, considering what other people in the community might think we just we kind of, at this point, want to hear what we want to hear, and I don't know if we always consider it the other, someone else's perspective. And many of the legislators that were defeated that I write about in my book death of the Blue Dogs, they were kind of those people that were, you know, kind of the cooling saucers of the Congress, and they would kind of consider those different perspectives, and that's what I'd like to see us get back to as a society, not just as, you know, From a legislative, congressional perspective, but as a society, get, get, get that broader sense of community back, talk to each other again, because really, we still go to those same schools, churches, wherever you might line up, and hopefully we can start have that conversation again.   Michael Hingson ** 19:14 How do we get there? Though,   Tyler Mills ** 19:19 you have to realize that we're all just human beings. And I think, I think we, in some ways, we've kind of like going, Oh, that that person listens to different music than I do. I must not like them. Just I don't know where, I don't know where we got off base to where it's good where we go. Oh, that person has a different opinion than I do. I must hate them, I or I must at least dislike them, or not want to communicate with them. I think, I think, I think we just need to really we, we the society and media accentuate the differences. When I think. That even, even though you, Michael, have spent most of your time out in California, and I've spent my most of my time out in the Midwest, I think we'd find out probably quite a few things, regardless of politics or whatever, we'd have a lot of things just to communist, basic human beings. You know, well,   Michael Hingson ** 20:16 I've been fortunate enough to actually have lived in several places around the country and traveled to many more, and I love the richness of this country, and I appreciate the different environments, the different areas and the different points of view. And I think it is extremely important that we recognize that and that we respect it. But that sure breaks down in in our times right now, at least when it comes to politics, you can't have a political discussion at all without somebody just flying off the deep end somewhere.   Tyler Mills ** 20:59 Well, yeah. I mean, if you, if you go to the cable news networks, they reward the people that are saying the most outlandish things, regardless of where one stands. The person that gets the most media attention is the person that says the, you know, the most sometimes unproven thing. And when you reward non factual behavior, or just straight up dishonest behavior that I think that encourages society as a whole to go in that direction. You know,   Michael Hingson ** 21:31 unfortunately we live in a country where, well, I won't say unfortunately we live in a country that provides and allows for free free speech, but unfortunately, we do sometimes see that carried to an extreme, as you're pointing out,   Tyler Mills ** 21:45 well, and I think, I think that they that for some reason we consider, right now we've got people, if you fact check someone, they consider it a form of censorship, yeah, and I don't, I don't think, I don't think fact checking someone and saying, Hey, I have a different I have my research says differently than this. I'm offering this point of view. I don't think that's a form of censorship, but unfortunately, we've kind of gotten to that point where people think that that's censorship   Michael Hingson ** 22:11 well, and it is unfortunate that we've seen a lot of that, and we we do see the whole idea of of fact checking, and some people just totally resent it. But the problem is they don't want to do anything other than do as I say, not as I do. And that's unfortunate too, exactly, exactly. Yeah. So it does make it quite a, quite a pain to deal with, needless to say. Well, so what do we need to do? I know you've sort of alluded to it a little bit, but what do we need to do to kind of bring rural America economically back more into the fold and than it is. You've you've   Tyler Mills ** 22:59 got to have people that don't automatically assume that we don't have the skills to get things done. I think, unfortunately, there's a lot of stereotypes out there about people that then so these stereotypes are true, and we there. Life is about constant improvement, and if you're not willing to make changes and see how you need to improve yourself, how you need to improve your community, then you're not going to progress. But I think that there are a lot of people out there that look at rural America as you know well, they just they don't understand their flyover country. They're not willing to learn. And I think in my in my community, I think we are willing to learn. I think we are willing to get better, but we have to prove ourselves back. We have to prove that to other people. I was watching the Daily Show one night with Jon Stewart, and a lot of people enjoy Jon Stewart. Of course, he's a very funny comedian, regardless of what your politics are. And he was making, he I, he was making fun of the state of West Virginia far too much. And if you know it was like, you know, he's making fun of how they don't, you know, their their teeth, and they don't read enough. And it was just kind of like John, you you consider yourself someone who likes to highlight the plight of the working class from time to time, and then here you are, you know, kind of going off on these people who clearly need help, clearly need assistance, and they need jobs in their communities. And I wish that we would get rid of some of those stereotypes and stop saying some of those hateful things about each other, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 24:42 yeah. And it's and it is so true. Well, if you take West Virginia, for example, and I've read that, you know, there's people there will drink a lot of soft drinks and so on, and their teeth aren't great and all that. Um. And there are, there are issues like that, but there are also other factors that really cause some of that to be the case. Aren't there? There   Tyler Mills ** 25:07 are, there are. I wish that that people would actually go to some of these communities more often. I wish that, you know people were able to travel more and to learn more about why, if you look at the history of West Virginia, Was it really the best place to even put a state you know that that's that's worthwhile to be so can you really blame that on the people that live there now, as far as economic development, as far as you know that, and we're in a lot of these communities, smaller communities. They're They're controlled by one employer. You know, what a what? Once one, one employer gets locked into a community, they kind of dictate whether another employer can come in, because they're afraid that their workforce, they're going to lose their workforce if this other employer comes in and that that's another the monopolistic practices or the, you know, I I'm not sure what the exact wording of it would be, but it's certainly a controlling process for a lot of these communities, because they're afraid to lose that One major employer, and then what do they have?   Michael Hingson ** 26:22 And they're afraid to lose or they think they would lose their identity,   Tyler Mills ** 26:27 absolutely. And I I think work. And some people would disagree with me this. They would say, well, Tyler, you should just find more leisure time. Find more things with your leisure time, and not worry so much about work, but I think that the people that are encouraging a society without work are often some of the most successful people in society that don't have to worry about it anyway. I worry that people, regardless of their politics, they figured the game out, they figured the world out. They know how to make money. They know how to, you know, pretty much get anything they want. And then they're going to say, well, you know, just sort of Pat us on our head, right? And just sort of say, Well, you shouldn't have to work anymore, or you shouldn't worry about that stress anymore. And in some ways that would be a good thing, but in some ways, I need that stress. I need that challenge well,   Michael Hingson ** 27:23 and I think that's the real operative part of it, it's challenge. We as a as a race, tend to like challenge, whether we always admit it or not, we do. We like challenge, and we like to have things that we have to overcome. And for those people who have, quote, made it, that's real lovely, but the problem is they tend to forget along the way what it took to get there. And the result, ultimately, is that they don't really help people like they can to get other people to maybe work like they did, and get there as well. Yeah,   Tyler Mills ** 28:02 and AI and all these different forms of technology are going to be absolutely wonderful for so many people with disabilities. But we've also got to consider, you know, if you've got a bit of a cognitive disability, are you going to be able to catch on to this AI technology as quickly as you should? And are these and are these programs going to be, are there going to be funding for the, you know, to go to the community college in a smaller community where someone could learn how to use this technology better? I think that some of the some of the people that are creating the technology are not thinking of me in rural America, or other people in rural America that have disabilities, it may take us a little bit longer, and that it's going to be, you know, might, we might pick it up four or five years down the road, but those four or five years are going to be rough, you know?   Michael Hingson ** 28:53 Well, yeah, and AI in general is so new that we really miss out on thinking in the more long term approach of what it will and can become. Of course, now we've got so many people who are going, Oh, it's horrible. It's going to take all of our jobs away. Kids are just going to use it to create all their papers and so on at school, so they're not going to learn anything. And from my perspective, hearing those kinds of comments tells me you're really missing it, and you're you're not recognizing the value that AI really brings to the world. So for example, for for for the classroom, if children are writing their papers and just letting ai do all the work, you may or may not be able to tell it when you're grading the paper, but the thing to do is to maybe get creative and think about a little. Bit different way of teaching. For example, when you assign students to do a paper, and especially you're concerned that they just may be letting AI write it, chat, GPT or something, write it, the easy thing to do is take one period of your class and have all of your students individually come up and take a minute and defend your paper, and you'll know very quickly who really understood it and who used it all the right way or not.   Tyler Mills ** 30:34 Yeah. I mean, I mean, when I, when I was going through school, we would, you know, the teacher would kind of read the whole book to us, and instead of having us read out loud, and then, and then you, and then you graduate high school, and then you're like, some of these kids can't read. And then it's like, well, where, where were you in the seventh grade checking to make sure that they could read?   Michael Hingson ** 30:56 Well, yeah, yeah, um, and I think there, yeah, I've had some teachers that all they did was parrot the book, which is not what a good lecturer should do at all. The book is the book, and the teacher needs to really add value to that process. And and that's something that you don't always see, which is also the case. My belief is that a good boss, if they're really exercising leadership skills, a good boss, has to work with each person in their team and figure out how the boss can add value to make them more successful, rather than just focusing and telling them what to do and and not not being involved anymore. That's not leadership Exactly,   31:46 exactly.   Michael Hingson ** 31:49 So I think it is important that you know we need to, again, look at all of that well. So it is. It is pretty clear to me that what you would really like to see us do is shift some of what we're doing in our priorities, like in the political spectrum and so on, to be a little bit more moderate and not be one side or the other necessarily. How do we do that? We how do we convince people that we got to go back to a more moderate environment? We   Tyler Mills ** 32:20 look we look at people's resumes. We look at we look at people who actually consider it different points of view. I back in 20, 2015 2016 I worked for a guy named us, Senator Jim Webb. He was from the Virginia and he was a Vietnam veteran, he ran as a Democrat for president, but he also served in the Reagan administration. And thing about Jim is, when I first met him, you know, basically in the past, so some candidates that I'd met were a little bit hesitant to work with me because of my disability, but because of Jim's background as a veteran, and he dealt with people with disabilities before, he was very, very inclusive, very, very receptive to not only me, but also all points of view. And I think that if people honestly just want to take the time and listen to good, moderate people, regardless of whether they have an RD or anything else behind their name. Part of it is, I think, is our attention span. I don't mean to be insulting the people by saying it's an attention span issue, but I don't think that they take the time to listen and say, Hey, this this individual is considering more than one side of the coin, more than one point of view? Yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 33:46 Well, yeah, it really gets down to you. Got to spend time thinking and strategizing and not just reacting and recognizing there's more to life than just one opinion,   Tyler Mills ** 34:03 exactly i and that's the thing about the the people in this book, they were, they, these were these were people that you know were getting votes from people that didn't necessarily agree with them ideologically. But what they would do is they would take the time to listen to other people and to help people with their social security matters, or help people with, you know, making sure that their son was able to apply for that Pell Grant, or their daughter was able to apply for that Pell Grant. And so even though you didn't necessarily line up with everyone on an ideological basis, a lot of people would still cast their ballot for them, and because they would actually do the work what a congress person is supposed to do, in my opinion, and like we were talking about earlier on Fox News or on any of the cable networks, I think that people again, are rewarded for being loud instead of doing the work of what a member of Congress is supposed to do. I.   Michael Hingson ** 35:00 Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's tough to get enough people together to to deal with that kind of vision. And so the result is that when you get, as you pointed out, people who may be a little bit more moderate, or people who want to really make contributions to society as a whole. They drop out because they feel like they've got just too many things stacked against them, and they're just too many people who don't want to listen.   Tyler Mills ** 35:31 Yeah. I mean, there's a part of my book during the CNN debate and Anderson Cooper was questioning Jim Webb and some of the other candidates about the Americans with Disabilities, act and Senator Webb and made the point in the past about affirmative action, possibly not considering income enough as far as making sure that people had opportunities well. Anderson Cooper implied during that debate that Jim Webb was anti Ada and I kind of went I highly doubt many of these other presidential candidates have people on in wheelchairs, on their in wheelchairs and dealing with a lot of other disability related issues on their steps right now, working on their campaigns. And here's Anderson Cooper telling me that my candidate might be anti Ada, and I was that just kind of it took me back, because I again, I think that it's the responsibility of a journalist to actually dig deeper into someone's writing, their what their public statements, everything about their as much as they can before they make some outlandish question or comment like that. And again, I think it's, it's just some of it is a lack of responsible journalism because you're trying to get ratings. You're trying to, you know, get the headlines there, instead of actually digging into the issues that people are going to need in order to be able to survive.   Michael Hingson ** 37:04 So you've talked about the Blue Dogs being involved in rural America on the question that comes to mind is, aren't they just as important for the big city and non rural America? Yeah,   Tyler Mills ** 37:16 yeah. And that's the thing is, back in the 70s, when, you know, when we people were trying to get the farm bill done, they would make sure that provisions were in there to, you know, create more farming opportunities in urban America. So there weren't food deserts. There are food deserts in urban America too. And I think that when, when you elect people that don't care about a farm bill, that don't want to, they don't want to earmark resources to a community, you know, they want to act like they're just going to save money on this or that, when really, I don't think there's that much savings going on, because I think a lot, a lot of a lot of Countries are running debt. They've always been running debt. And I think it's not that debt doesn't matter. Debt absolutely does matter. But at the end of the day, if, if your people are living in a food desert, because the farm bill is not, you know, the resources there are not properly, you know, allocated, that's an issue that's far deeper than a than a structural, you know, spending deficit,   Michael Hingson ** 38:28 yeah, yeah. And we, well, we've, we've got to figure out a way to bring a little bit more sanity to the process. I guess we've, we've seen these kinds of cycles before, though, and the hope, and the hope is, over time, we'll be able to see maybe the the cycle shift, and we bring a little bit more sanity into the whole structure. But it's going to take somebody who's a really strong leader, who understands that, who can make it happen? And I'm not sure that we are seeing any of that even today in society, we have two political candidates, and I think one is closer to that ideal than the other, but I'm not sure whether we have anyone who really is strong enough or sophisticated enough to outsmart and bring about the kind of changes that we're talking about.   Tyler Mills ** 39:26 Well, the thing that frustrates me, and one of the things that frustrates me, is that some, some of these people that that were that were elected to Congress, are now seeing their communities die out. That they're, they're they're losing population. You can, you can look at the statistics. These are not made up statistics. These are proven statistics that that all a lot of these rural communities are losing population and alarming rates, and yet, you these people are continually getting rewarded by getting elected again and again. Wouldn't they want to see their community? Grow? That's my question. Maybe I don't want it seems like a false way of thinking here, because a lot of these communities are dying out, and yet you're getting rewarded by getting re elected or given a higher position in some sort of organization. And I'm like, You are losing population in your community at an alarming rate, and yet you're bragging about getting, you know, whatever you think done to me, you would want your community to grow and prosper? Well,   Michael Hingson ** 40:31 I would think so. But again, what we find is people's priorities are a little bit different than than I think what we would believe would be the ideal, yeah,   Tyler Mills ** 40:44 and it's, it's, it's frightening, because, you know, I the goal of of any, any society, it should be to help as many people as you can reach their full potential. Yeah? And if, and if rural America and in parts of urban America, absolutely, if they're not getting resources allocated to them, there's always so much you can do completely on your own in this world, in my opinion, and without that sense of community, I think a lot of people are being left behind, and it's just it's extremely unfortunate.   Michael Hingson ** 41:18 Do you think that we'll be able to see a shift, and we'll find more moderates coming back at some point,   Tyler Mills ** 41:25 we have to find a way to punish the media for what they do. They they encourage just out. They want people to start yelling. They want people to start yelling at each other. It's like, it's like a professional wrestling match. Michael, it's not like, you know, we basically got talk radio on in the halls of Congress now. Instead of, instead of saying, Hey, you're a human being, I'm a human being, I have constituents. You have constituents. We literally have members of the United States Senate, you know, threatening union leaders saying you want to fight, you want to have a fist fight, you know, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 42:09 And well again, what do we do to change all of that? And you're right, the media is certainly a part of it. One of the things that really frustrates me is that we have these things. When candidates for president, for example, get together, they call them debates, but they're not debates. No, I'm not sure. I don't remember the Kennedy Nixon debate, and so I don't remember whether it really was a debate, but I bet it was closer to a debate than anything that we see today, because we're not really seeing any kind of good, real, legitimate debate discourse. No,   Tyler Mills ** 42:54 it's, it's sound bite after sound bite and attack line after attack run, and the questioning, the questioning is set up that way, and it's and I understand why they do it, because they want viewership. They want people to be talking about, oh, this candidate said this tan. And now we're going to talk about it for the 24 hour news cycle, and then we're going to move on to the next news cycle. Instead of having a substantive debate where people can discuss issues and actually solve, you know, internet connectivity in rural or parts of urban America, we end up with a debate over I, you know, whatever the you know, space lasers or whatever you know so well.   Michael Hingson ** 43:40 And the other part about it is that, I think, in reality, with a legitimate, real debate, you would have just as much to talk about, and would still allow for all of that to happen. Yeah,   Tyler Mills ** 43:52 yeah. So maybe, again, maybe it's maybe they need to give more air time to it. But again, that attention span that I think partly, personally, because of technology and the way things have changed. For better or worse, people don't have that attention span anymore, and I'm just as guilty as anybody so   Michael Hingson ** 44:13 they don't have that attention span. I hear people talking all the time about making videos to put up on YouTube or whatever, and I am told constantly it's got to be 30 seconds, because people won't pay attention for any longer than that. Yet, what content can you really do in 30 seconds?   44:33 Nothing, nothing,   Michael Hingson ** 44:37 or very little of any substance anyway, which isn't to say that you want to have a video that's 15 minutes or a half hour. It's got to be something that that makes sense. You got to keep people's attention, but I have yet to see if you do it the right way, where you can have a five minute video that keeps. That doesn't keep people's attention, if you do it, right?   Tyler Mills ** 45:03 Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I all listen to a good podcast. I mean, you know, like, just like we're doing right here, and you know, if it really gets my attention, I'm gonna, I know, and then I'm gonna come back for more, you know. And I think people hopefully, you know, hopefully they enjoy that sort of thing still, and, you know, really embrace it. I hope, I certainly hope so.   Michael Hingson ** 45:23 We have typically made these podcasts an hour long, and I've had the opportunity to be interviewed on a variety of different kinds of podcasts, and I've been lectured not about mine so much as other people say, Well, no one's going to listen to a podcast if it's an hour long. That's why we only make ours 15 minutes, or 20 minutes, or at most, a half hour, and yet, when they ask questions, they they don't really ask questions, much less do it in a way that creates content and does does what they really ought to do, even If it's only a half hour long.   Tyler Mills ** 46:00 Yeah, I, I, I think, I, I wish that content could be more substantive. I think, I think you're spot on about that. No doubt about it. So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 46:16 so what we have, we have seen changes come about, although sometimes it isn't, perhaps in the ways that we ought to I mentioned earlier sheltered workshops, and there's been a big battle in the blindness system about the fact that all too many rehabilitation agencies and other entities push so many blind people into sheltered workshops, and those workshops have a way where they don't have to pay even minimum wage, and they've played some really strong games with that, but there's been a lot of visibility about that, and so a number of those shops have actually changed their model. But what do we do again to get the Congress to really deal with it? Or, you know, or is that asking the same question we've asked so many times already during this conversation? You know,   Tyler Mills ** 47:15 I think, I think it's up to the private sector. I think the private Congress right now is at a standstill, and I think that they prefer their permanent stand. So I, I've spoken to HR professionals, and my degree is actually in the human resources. And a lot of these HR professionals are not aware of the different programs that are out there, and then they're not aware of the tax credits. Yeah, it's not, it's not that they're not well, it says they're not willing to learn. I just don't think that was part of their program. I've worked at a call center now. You know, for over eight years, I'm still, obviously, there are all kinds of disabilities out there, but I'm still the only person in a wheelchair out after over eight years. And I don't know if I hope it hasn't been my own performance that has discouraged them from hiring other people with disabilities, but because that really would upset me, but it would, it would, but I, I You would think that someone else would have come across the line during the time I've been out there, because, Like, even when I got out there, they're like, they're like, you're the only person in wheelchair I've ever ain't out, you know? And they, they'd been working for other call centers before, and I was like, this is call center work. This is one of the most obvious things that people like me can do, yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 48:35 it's and it's easy, it doesn't require an incredible amount of physical labor. And there are actually some good technological ways that a blind person could do that. It does take, it does take some some additional kinds of things, given the typical call center software, but the technology is there to do that today.   Tyler Mills ** 48:58 Yeah, I, I don't know if you've ever had the chance to work with different call centers about that kind of technology, but apparently some of them still need to help. So   Michael Hingson ** 49:07 oh, they do. I know of some mine, and I've I've dealt with some that actually have put the effort into it, but still, I know what you're saying. But then it gets back again to the whole idea of we're not included in the conversation. And I think that mostly when it comes down to dealing with people with disabilities, we don't think about it that way. We don't think about we're not included in the conversation, and we don't necessarily really deal with that. And when I'm talking about the conversation, why isn't the President every time he, or possibly in the future, she, is talking about one thing or another that they don't just talk about race and gender, they also automatically include people with disabilities and. Use examples. We're not included in any of those conversations.   Tyler Mills ** 50:04 Well, I think, unfortunately, we're, we're given absolutely necessary social programs there, you know, disability benefits, Medicaid, different things are absolutely necessary for survival. But I think people just sort of like, make sure that their tax dollars go to that, and then they don't think, they think, well, we it's not that they think we've done enough, but they think that, you know, well, we are making sure that these people are able to stay alive, and maybe in their minds, that is enough. But for for you and me and other people that think about this on a deeper level, we want more, and are we being selfish? I don't think so. You know, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 50:47 well, so we've talked a lot about work. Does society value work? Is that changing?   Tyler Mills ** 50:53 I don't, I don't think so. And as much as I embrace new forms of technology, I think that there's some. I think a lot of our drug problem, and particularly in rural America, is because you don't, you don't have some of those. You're not giving some of those menial labor jobs to the regular working class anymore. You're letting the technology do which is fine if you want to let the technology do it. That's completely your prerogative and your perspective, do you know to just sort of move, you know, the self checkout thing, and that's that's fine if companies want to go that route. But I think at the same point, there's a value to getting that person who may have been struggling in life, to get them to add a local grocery store, be at a Costco, or whatever the case may be, instead of, you know, having a self checkout, you know, it does, it does it hurt a company's bottom line? Absolutely, in many ways it does. But I think that we've lost a sense of that. Yeah, no purpose of work,   Michael Hingson ** 51:55 yeah, well, um, and you, you, you cut out a little bit. So maybe you can repeat some of that, because you cut out for a few seconds.   Tyler Mills ** 52:04 Yeah, the internet's going out, like we were talking about earlier, just again about how I think, I think it's important to still have part of that is the loss of the sense of the community is because we don't we use the technology now that it can be very, very helpful. But at the same time, if you give that job to a person who was previously struggling and not able to make find their way in life, maybe struggling with a fentanyl or struggling with some sort of drug related issue, now that they can have a job, they feel better about themselves, they can get a paycheck and be it be a larger part of society. Obviously, we'd rather have them, you know, getting an advanced degree and moving on to that larger scale to scale job. And hopefully they would be able to do that in the future. But I think society doesn't value, you know, having a someone to check out your groceries or someone to, you know, wash your car or mow your grass, or some of the menial jobs that are going to be eliminated here in the future, and in many cases, have been eliminated now. So we're as beautiful. Technology is going to be great for us. It's going to work in so many great ways. But we also don't look at the other side of the coin enough either. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 53:30 the other side of that, though, is let's take self checkout here in California, for example, when you talk about if you have to hire somebody, does that affect the bottom line, it does. But what we're also discovering is that self checkout is affecting the bottom line because there are too many people who cheat that system, and the result is that they they're able to get out without paying for everything or whatever. So their their challenges, all around and again, what I'm hearing you say, and I think there's merit to it, is that what we're really not doing is representing enough the value of giving people the opportunity to have jobs and encouraging them. And the companies aren't tending nearly to be as loyal as they used to be for people and working. And you're right. They're going to technology and everything else, and they're not being loyal like they used to be. You don't see the same loyalty. Hence, people move so often from one job and one company to another job and another company.   Tyler Mills ** 54:45 Yeah, when you have people in the investing in your company, they're just looking at the profit at the end of the quarter. They don't look at the you know, they see that profit in their stock portfolio, which is fantastic, because, well, anybody should be able to play the stock. Could do whatever they want, but again, if Walmart turns a massive profit by eliminating 1520, jobs, if they're different operations, what kind of larger impact does that have on a local community? And that's that's a question that should be asked. Now we might come to the conclusion that that's overall a good thing. I I don't come to that conclusion necessarily, but I think, I think it's a conversation that needs to be had   Michael Hingson ** 55:29 all the time, and it's like anything else. How do we get that conversation to occur more often?   Tyler Mills ** 55:36 Well, I think, again, I think we've kind of lost our sense of I don't, but when I, when I was growing up, I think that people were just nicer to each other. I and I, I don't know if it's because people just think they can say whatever they want to each to each other, yeah, now, now that we're behind the keyboard, or we can just be agree or disagree. We should never be as just unkind and be calling each other stupid and uninformed? And you know, we need to consider all different perspectives as much as we can. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 56:09 you know, we we should, and I really would love to see a world where we could have a lot more discussion without somebody becoming offended, because discussion is always valuable if we really have a discussion, and can if going back to using that term debate something. But you know, so do you think more people with disabilities ought to move and be involved in more rural America? Would that be a beneficial thing?   Tyler Mills ** 56:50 I think would be beneficial. I think if we there are a lot of extremely compassionate people here. I think that just because they people assume, just because a certain community starts to vote a certain way, that they've lost their compassion. I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think you've got a lot of compassionate people here who who love, who love, to help other people. They're not necessarily voting the way. They're not actually voting their values. They're extremely compassionate people, but they're not voting that way. So then people who are voting the opposite way assume that they don't care. I think it's a lack of information. I think we've got we've got as much information as we've ever had at our fingertips. I don't know if we're actually on a search for knowledge within that information, you know? So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 57:47 we, we don't know how to search. We don't know how to or, oftentimes it seems like we don't want to get that information, because it, it, it's the the usual, don't bother me with the facts, and that's unfortunate.   Tyler Mills ** 58:06 And I also worry about, you know, a lot of these bigger banks and bigger companies are able to swallow up the smaller banks in the smaller communities, and so the, again, the capital dries up. The that's that's really important. I I don't understand completely why, why some people who would consider themselves more conservative aren't worried about anti trust laws if they truly want those rural communities that they represent to survive. The reason why I wrote this book is because I see, again, I see a lot of people who are who are elected to represent rural America, are letting it die out, and I do not understand why that's and that's what I tried to explore in the book. And it just it. It boggles my mind. And I could write 15 books on it, and it would still make me go, Hmm,   Michael Hingson ** 59:00 well, your voice still needs to be heard out there, and people need to hear I think what you're saying, it's, it certainly isn't a very relevant and valuable viewpoint. And we've, we've got to get to the point where we can have good discussion and good interaction with each other. We've lost the art of conversation all the way around.   Tyler Mills ** 59:26 Yeah, it's, it's because we we text each other and we message each other and and shorthand, and we don't really, I don't think we have those same kind of full length conversations that we used to have.   Michael Hingson ** 59:37 One of the things that I do regularly when I'm looking for speaking opportunities, and I've looked at some databases, and I will send out emails and talk to people about becoming or hiring me to be a speaker. I love it when somebody responds to me, and even if they say I'm the. Right person. We're not doing anything right now, but they leave a phone number because I think it's so important to be able to reach out to people on the phone. Email is so insensitive, and texting, of course, is there's nothing like communicating with someone on the phone. And I know that a lot of times I've been able to get speaking engagements because I was able to actually have a phone conversation. And some people have gone so far as to say, most people don't call me. I really appreciate the fact that you called me and took the time to to let me get to know you better, and whether we have anything right now or not, isn't the issue, but thanks for at least initiating the phone call.   Tyler Mills ** 1:00:47 Yeah, you you can talk about why you care about a project more. You can really go into detail as to why you know this. Do you think that this particular situation, whatever you're working on, would would really help benefit everyone involved in a text message. I don't think you can necessarily lay out that kind of emotion, you know, you   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:09 certainly can't lay out the emotion. Yeah, yes, it is just, isn't there? Well, Tyler, this is really been a lot of fun. We have spent an hour doing it, and I have no problem with that, just okay. So I really appreciate your time, and I think I really thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening. This has been a lot of fun, and I hope that you've enjoyed it, everyone out there listening and watching us, I hope you've enjoyed it, and that you will let us know what you think. Please feel free to email me. Michael, H, I m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, and we'd love to hear from you. We'd love if you whenever you're listening or wherever you're listening. If you give us a five star rating, please rate us Tyler. If people want to reach out to you and interact with you more, how do they do that? They   Tyler Mills ** 1:02:07 can find me on LinkedIn, Tyler mills. Type in Tyler Mills, Mills, marketing services. You also my book is on lulu.com that's where I get the most money for it, to be honest, amazon.com wonderful site if you want to get it there, but I only get 37 cents on Amazon. But so if, if you can go to lulu.com death of the Blue Dogs, Tyler Mills, if you want to learn more about my book, any, any of the projects that I have to do with Mills marketing services, you could find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on Facebook. Mills marketing services. I'm I'm available. I got my phone number, email everything, so I'm good to go. Cool.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:46 Well, we put links in the cover notes as well, so the show notes, so they'll be there. So again, I want to thank you all. I really appreciate you, Tyler, taking the time. And if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. And for all of you out there, if you know anyone who you think ought to be a guest or might be a good guest, I want to hear about it. We're always looking for people who want to come on and tell their story and talk about what they do. So please, by all means, refer people to us. I think it would be great. And we would love to talk with them and explore them coming on the show. So once again, I want to thank you, though all for being here. Tyler, I want to thank you for being here. This has been fun.   Tyler Mills ** 1:03:29 Thank you for the opportunity. Michael, I really enjoyed it. Thank you for letting me speak to your viewers.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:03:40 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Freda Uwa grew up in Nygeria. There she attended college securing a bachelor's degree and then went on to do some advance studies as well. She is a trained nurse. She also is a nutrition expert and, as she tells us, she loves to cook.   Five years ago Freda moved to Canada. She spent time as a mental health case manager even before her husband and three boys moved to Canada to join her. As she tells us, while she absolutely loved her time as a case manager, the job was quite taxing on her. She had to handle many cases where she had no one with whom to share her experiences. As we discuss here, not having any opportunity to decompress by talking to a spouse or others is by no means healthy.   Eventually Freda gave up her case management job and, just about a year ago, she assumed the job of Executive Director of Independent Living Canada. This organization oversees 24 independently operated independent living centers which are spread throughout Canada. She has shown that she is ideal for the job due to her leadership and project management training and skills. Freda is the first black leader of IL Canada which has been in existence for 38 years.   Freda gives us lots of insights on leadership and community. I hope you enjoy our time with Freda and that you will take the time to give this episode and Unstoppable Mindset a 5-star rating.       About the Guest:   Freda Uwa is a distinguished leader and advocate in the fields of independent living, accessibility, and mental health. Freda draws from her extensive experience in Canada to drive impactful initiatives and foster inclusive communities.   Currently, Freda serves as the National Executive Director of Independent Living Canada, overseeing 24 Independent Living Centres led by individual Executive Directors across the country. In this role, she made history as the first Black leader in the organization's 38-year history and the first African in Canada to ever lead the sector as National Executive Director.   Freda's notable accomplishments include her work as the Project Manager for the Creating Accessible Events Project for the Government of Canada through Accessible Standards Canada. This role underscores her commitment to ensuring that events across the nation are inclusive and accessible to all individuals, regardless of their abilities.   As the Regional Coordinator for the IDEA Project for Race and Disability Canada, Freda plays a pivotal role in addressing the intersectionality of race and disability, advocating for policies and practices that promote equity and inclusion.Her extensive background in mental health is exemplified by her previous role as a Mental Health and Addictions Case Manager, where she provided critical support and care to individuals facing mental health challenges and substance use issues.   In addition to her leadership and advocacy roles, Freda holds a Canadian Red Seal Endorsement for Skills and Trades, showcasing her dedication to professional excellence and her commitment to fostering skill development and employment opportunities.     Freda Uwa's career is marked by her unwavering dedication to championing the rights and needs of marginalized communities, her innovative approach to project management, and her exceptional leadership in promoting independent living and accessibility. Her work continues to inspire and drive positive change across Canada, Africa and beyond.   Ways to connect with Freda:   IL Canada Facebook Link - https://www.facebook.com/MyIndependentLivingCanada?mibextid=ZbWKwL Freda's LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/freda-uwa-7515a235?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=android_app  Freda Instagram (Business page)  - https://www.instagram.com/luluseventsandkitchen?igsh=YW10OWs3ODY5d2Q1   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome once again to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and we do get to talk about inclusion today. And as some of you know who are regular listeners to this podcast, the reason it is inclusion, diversity in the unexpected is it's inclusion because it is. Diversity comes second after inclusion, because if you talk to people about diversity, typically they never talk about disabilities. We get left out of the discussion. And then the unexpected is anything that doesn't have anything to do with inclusion or diversity, which is probably most of the guests that we deal with. But today, we are going to have the honor of speaking to Freda Uwa and Freda is the executive director of independent living Canada, which has responsibility or works with the 24 independent living centers around Canada. And so I'm really looking forward to learning more about that and hearing about it and looking forward to hearing all that Freda has to say. So Freda, we want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset, and we're really glad you're here.   Freda Uwa ** 02:29 Thank you, Michael, thanks for having me. Well, I   Michael Hingson ** 02:33 love to start kind of little bit different than maybe some people do tell us about the early Frida, growing up and all that sort of stuff, anything that that you want us to know, and you don't have to tell us all your secrets, but tell us about the early freedom.   Freda Uwa ** 02:49 Oh, that's fun. Thanks. Michael. Freda, the little girl. Freda i Oh, that's so much fun. Now I think about growing up and all of the memories that that comes with so I I am privileged to have grown in a closely middle class family in Nigeria. I grew up in Nigeria, one of the countries in Africa, and it was fun, right? The bills, just happy go lucky child. I was the one child that had all the breast of energy, and I just loved to laugh. So that was all of that. There was family, faith based activities, and I also had schooling, of course. And went to college, did my nursing, went on to do a BSc in home Science and Management, and with an option in nutrition and dietetics and so all of that was fun. And of course, I enjoyed having to be part of a family that loved to do things together. So that was, that's Freda, oh, the little girl. Frida, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 04:02 that's the little girl. Frida, well, that works out pretty well. So you have a bachelor's did you go anywhere beyond a bachelor's degree or   Freda Uwa ** 04:11 Yeah, so in Canada, I had, I took a post grad certificate in nursing, leadership and management, and then community mental health certificate as well. So yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 what that works out pretty well and certainly kept you busy. And what did? What did you do with all that? Once you got your degrees,   Freda Uwa ** 04:33 I evolved. You evolved.   Michael Hingson ** 04:37 You grew up then, huh?   Freda Uwa ** 04:39 Absolutely, absolutely. So there was a lot of growth that came with that, a lot of responsibilities. I moved to Canada, figured out new part and all of that. So there was all of the growth that happened and that forces you to evolve. So the degree, the experience and all of that. So in the short answer is I evolved with that. So yeah. Us.   Michael Hingson ** 05:01 Okay, and so what kind of jobs did you hold   Freda Uwa ** 05:09 all my life? You mean, or you're just asking for a period in my life?   Michael Hingson ** 05:13 Yes, so once college was over, what kind of, what kind of jobs did you actually do then for a while?   Freda Uwa ** 05:19 Okay, so I, I am a registered nurse as well, so I'm right. I have many parts, right? So I did nursing. I also have a business, a food business as well. So I was into events management and catering at the time, and then the core of what I do now, also started in Nigeria, where I led a nonprofit for about four years before moving over to Canada, did some schooling, and then came back to the space that I love, and that's social services around people, supporting people with disabilities and all of that so and that's a pack of all that I did in terms of work.   Michael Hingson ** 06:01 What brought you from Nigeria to Canada?   Freda Uwa ** 06:05 First of all, it was cooling, like I came to experience that other side of education, right? So I came with that flare, and then family moved over, and now I'm here.   Michael Hingson ** 06:19 Well, that works out pretty well we i People won't necessarily see it, but we just have company joining us. My cat has joined us. I see and I'm trying to get her up on the back of our desk chair so that she will hopefully leave us alone. Anyway, there we go. Well, so how long ago did you come over from Nigeria to Canada? I've been in   Freda Uwa ** 06:45 Canada going on five years now. I I moved here at the peak of, not the peak at the beginning of the pandemic. So I came in just as I got into Canada, everywhere was shut down. So I'm like, is this the reality? Is this what it feels like being here? So I was almost locked up right away. So yeah, that's, that's my journey. So it's about going on five years now.   Michael Hingson ** 07:10 Wow. So you've been here a while. So you, you came over here and you, you decided that your passion was really working in the arena of disabilities and and so on. So what? What really caused you to do that? Why did you decide that that's what you really wanted to do with your life?   Freda Uwa ** 07:34 Great question. Michael, so I've always known that I had what I call a greater calling, like I've always wanted to live my purpose in life. I know I did share that. I am a registered nurse in Nigeria, and having all of that, and also business owner in Nigeria, but I find that in all that I did, there was something, there was a missing piece, right? So I needed to, I needed to fill that void and recall that I told you that I grew up in a close knit family setting, so my younger sister that I love today, by the way, she has a disability, and I've been a primary caregiver I had, or I was her primary caregiver for a while, and I also watched my mother struggle through that. At some point, my mother, my mother's life, was almost on hold because she needed to take care of her child. So that, in itself, created the need for me to just fill a void, right? So it was beyond just where, where's the money, right? It was beyond that, and I needed to just leave out my purpose and find a career that would really and genuinely make me happy while I'm touching life in the way that I know how to   Michael Hingson ** 09:05 Yeah, well, and I believe very firmly in the fact that if you're really doing what you like to do, then it isn't really a job. It's it's a whole lot more fun, and it's a whole lot more rewarding. Absolutely,   Freda Uwa ** 09:19 I'm having fun, Michael, I'm having funded. So yes, which   Michael Hingson ** 09:22 is, which is really important to be able to do, what if I can ask, is the disability that your sister has? She's   Freda Uwa ** 09:30 She has intellectual disability. So it's, yeah, so it's all and again, with misdiagnosis and all of that. So that's a whole situation going on, right there. So that's why, that's how I how come I, I'm like, there is a void that needs to be filled, right? So it's all of the complications that comes out from misdiagnosis and her living through that all her life. Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 09:54 Now is, is she and your family still in Nigeria, or did they move over here too?   Freda Uwa ** 09:59 I know my my mom and my sister are still in Nigeria. In   Michael Hingson ** 10:04 Nigeria, well, I assume you go back and visit every so often. That's all we have. Yeah, you gotta do that well and and when you can't go back, you've got things like zoom so you can still look at them and talk to them.   Freda Uwa ** 10:18 Absolutely we, we thank God for technology. So it's all of that, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 10:24 yeah, technology has certainly made a significant difference in the whole art of communications over the past, oh, especially 10 years, but certainly in the last five years, just because of what the pandemic has done and so on, for sure. So how did you end up specifically deciding to get involved with independent living centers, and how did you end up being the executive director of independent living Canada?   Freda Uwa ** 10:55 Oh, interesting. That's a great question. Michael, so I, I, I say this always, my story and journey has always been that of resilience and just a journey of self discovery and awareness. I'll give you, I'll share with you. Michael, right, as I came into Canada in 2020, at the beginning of COVID, I was in, I was in a I was in on a conversation with a friend at the time, and he was sharing an experience, and was speaking to me about somebody, and speaking to me about a newcomer who had come into Canada and was leading an organization like an like an administrator at the time, and this history was about the consequences of mismanagement of some sort. Hm, and he, he let me know that the, the woman got into trouble, and, you know, was relieved of her job and all of that because she didn't do something, right? But while I was listening to that story, a seed was planted in me that, hold on, I've got this experience, I've got this much knowledge, I've got this much abilities, I've got this much skills. Then if a newcomer could transfer all of that here to Canada and do all of this. That means there is space for me somewhere. So it wasn't more so of yes, what you shouldn't do, it's something, it didn't come to me as though, like it's a test for your competence or something. I knew there was, there was a possibility somewhere. So that was when the seed was planted in me. And as soon as I began to look for jobs, I started looking out for the jobs that aligned with what I had done, including my executive executive leadership in Nigeria. And that was how it happened that I was done schooling, and I started looking for opportunities, and I went out to apply for jobs that would speak to my competencies and and the rest that says history. So I we, that's how the seed was planted. I'm like, okay, yeah, there I go, and I'll tell you what happened with my very first interview and Michael, I didn't get called for an interview and Ed role. And I, I'm not sure if you know about the process with executive hiring, it's a lot of steps, like you do the phone the phone interview, you do the writing, you go for, like a first phase, a second phase, and all of that. It was really daunting. And I went through all the phases, and I was feeling really confident and good about it. I actually went through to the last phase where I had to go in person to see the outgoing Ed who was retiring at the time, and kind of like had a meeting slash interview situation that it looked as though I was getting on boarded, but it wasn't, like official. So in my head, I felt that this is it. I'm there, yeah. So I did, I did all of that. I went back home, and a couple of days later I got the email, you know, one of those emails, and I'm like, oh, oh, no. So this is it's that's no way on from here that this is it. I And then like, Oh, thank you for your time and all of that. So we've moved on to XYZ, and you know all of those words, I'm like, oh, in that moment, I didn't feel like, I didn't feel too bad, because I felt like, Oh, this is my first and I got this close, then that's something, right? So yeah, I'm like, okay, that's not too bad. But what happened next was what really got me thinking I continued my job search, right? So a couple of weeks later, I get an email from the same organization asking if I. Still available for the role and for the job. And I was excited again. I'm like, Oh yes, I can. Why not? And then in their response there, they wanted to have a second interview, set of interview. I'm like, hold on, what's going on? I'm like, okay, that's not too bad. I will, I will make myself available for the interview, and I did, and I think we had the next one, and I got really worried. And then after that, I got an email saying the same thing, that they had given the role to somebody else, and that got me angry. Yeah, right. So I needed to know what it was. You name it. Let me what I so I sent out an email to them. I'm like, Oh, hold on. So what's all this? What's, what's, what's going on, let me know why my like, I just needed to know. And then they responded to say that I was over qualified for the role. I'm like, that's, that's, that's a dumb answer, right? So, Hawaii, why would you say that to be now that, now that I'm thinking about it, right? So I took all of that in, and I decided to move on from there and just pick up the lessons. And then went forward with that. So that experience in itself shapes me into the resilience of not just giving up, because I knew I was very close to getting what I wanted right. So I went on from there, and I became an addictions case manager, addictions and mental health case manager, a job that I really, really love. It was so beautiful I had. I had the privilege of going to flying into the isolated reserves in those little, small airplanes and all of that. So I give so many emergency responses, whether it's flawed calls for suicide and all of those mental health work. I really loved that job, but it was so heavy on me, and it was at the time when I was going through a lot in my my own self, like emotionally and my mental health, I was by myself in Canada. At the time, my my family, that my husband and kids were still in Nigeria. So the weight of all of that was too much on me, like there was nothing to decompress to, if you know what I mean, right? So you go, you hear all of these heavy things, and you cannot really process your own feelings. And then I'm also thinking about the same situation, and I'm thinking about, Oh, what's going on? What's my what's what's going on in my head? So I didn't, I didn't, I didn't stay too long on that job. And then I and also I left because it was too much, like I said, even though I loved the job. And then I went on to become the CEO of an Ability Center, which is also supporting individuals with intellectual disabilities. And from there on, was when I, I moved on to il Canada, and I'm loving it. So that's my story of resilience.   Michael Hingson ** 17:59 Yeah, it is really tough when you're you're by yourself, and you don't have anyone to talk to and to share things with, because talking with someone, talking things out, is always important and is always helpful, because it helps you put things in perspective. And when you can't do that, it just bottles up inside of you, and that's that's not good. Mm, hmm,   18:23 absolutely,   Michael Hingson ** 18:26 well, but, but you, you moved on. So how long have you been in il Canada? Now   Freda Uwa ** 18:33 going on one year? Oh, September, yes. So it's just what going on one year in September. So, yeah, feel very new.   Michael Hingson ** 18:42 So tell me a little bit about il Canada and what you do and so on.   Freda Uwa ** 18:47 Okay, so I'll Canada. It's basically a network of independent living centers across the country. It started in, it was it started in it started as a movement a long time ago, in 1986 it was formerly known as Canadian Association of Independent Living Centers, and now now independent living Canada. So it's all about providing a collective voice on the on national issues for all of our member centers and fostering and maintaining partnerships in that regard, building capacity and scaling what we're doing, especially on the national level. So our member centers have the via our foot soldiers in different different communities and different local centers. So we are we've got il member centers in almost across every project, every province in Canada. It's in Saskatchewan, Ontario, you name it, it's everywhere. So IO Canada, it's we thrive on. Four core pillars of service, which would be independent living, skills development, peer support, Networking and Information and all of the resources that we do. So we provide a national voice for all 24 member centers, and they are all run by different executive directors and offering unique needs to their communities,   Michael Hingson ** 20:25 so and so. What you do is, do you do you coordinate services? Do you act as more of a case manager and distribute funds? Or what does IO Canada do for the 24 agencies, right?   Freda Uwa ** 20:43 Great question. So these, like I said, the 24 agencies or centers, are independent of like they are autonomous, like the source funds and all of that, even though we provide some substantial but it is really, they are very independent of what we do, so we are like a collective voice for the member centers on the national level. So that's what IEL Canada does. We there's monthly meetings, there is all of the accreditations that we do and just ensuring that all accredited member centers are operating within our four core pillars of service that promotes independent living for people with cross disabilities.   Michael Hingson ** 21:29 What relationship or how do you interact with organizations like the Canadian National Institute for the Blind and so on.   Freda Uwa ** 21:39 So that in itself. It's it will totally depend on what projects we're working on, right? So it would be project based or research based, right? So we are a national voice for all of our centers. So if, if any of our Centers are partnering, partnering with any individual Association, that is the partnership we're seeking, and we will support and encourage them. But on the national level, it's usually project based or collaboration in terms of research or information, or whatever that looks like, or maybe communities of practice and all of that.   Michael Hingson ** 22:17 Well, how does well, let me rephrase that, what does CNIB do, as opposed to what the independent living centers do? Do you know,   Freda Uwa ** 22:28 again, each independent living center is operating on different like they have, they have tailored made programs for their centers, right? So some people have communities that they have programs that support vision loss or the blind and all the other centers who have programs for youth, employment, housing, transportation. So they are all direct funding to support independent living in terms of managing your resources and other skills. So for in that regard, it would naturally lie with the centers and how they want to collaborate with cnid. So it's for us at the national level. It would mostly be on research or any collaboration on the project, but to actually reach out to the consumers or participants, it will be the independent centers, like the member centers themselves, right?   Michael Hingson ** 23:24 So a CNI be more of a funding agency or, or, well, I know that they do provide services, but I was just trying to understand where the overlap is, or, or how the two types of organizations interact with each other.   Freda Uwa ** 23:39 I'm not familiar with their model, like, I don't know about their model, yeah, but most, what we do with every organization, or most organization is collaboration or partnership, right? So they may have a different funding model for us at IELTS Canada. It's it's center is working on our four core pillars, providing different programs and services within these four populars, and they're at liberty to fill up make these programs to suit their communities.   Michael Hingson ** 24:09 Okay? So they they may work, and they may get some funding from CNIB for specific projects and so on. But I, I understand that you're dealing with being closer to the individual communities where   Freda Uwa ** 24:22 you are. Oh, for sure, that's with the member centers. Yeah, for myself, I am, like the administrative head for the national organization, the National aisle, right,   Michael Hingson ** 24:31 right. Yeah, right. Well, so when, when you've been working and you've you've now been doing some of this for a while, what would be for you a pivotal moment, given our philosophy, or our title, unstoppable mindset, where is a pivotal moment in your life, where you had to really demonstrate resilience? It's an unstoppability.   Freda Uwa ** 25:03 I like that question so much. I I kind of feel like, um, I've had so many of those moments, right? I've had the moment where I had to face the pandemic, pandemic all by myself, without my family here. And I'm like, No, so I have to be here for me. I have to be here for my family as well. So all of those is all of that. It's a part of the package, right? And then I also had the moment where I started on that conversation with my friend that spoke about that lady, and it planted a seed in my heart, like I was there was something for me if I was going to transfer all of my skills from Nigeria. I could do it right and and then again, the next big thing that happened to me was having a meltdown on my job as a as a case manager for mental health and addictions. So all of those moments left me, like you said, with that unstoppable mindset, like growth is not always linear, like you get bumps, you get heat, and then you have to get up and you keep moving. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 26:13 yeah, you you've got to make that decision to do that, to make the decision to to move forward. And that's an individual choice, but when you decide to do it and you stick to it, you get such a wonderful feeling of accomplishment, don't you Exactly,   Freda Uwa ** 26:30 exactly, that's, that's, that's, yeah, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 26:35 which is, which is pretty cool. So you are able to, you know, to move forward and do the things that you do, the things that you got to do. So you're also unusual in another way, in terms of being the first black executive director of independent living Canada and one of the first two black leaders in a lot of different areas and aspects of the whole rehabilitation and independent living environment. Does that get to be a challenge for you, or do you regard that as a plus or what?   Freda Uwa ** 27:15 I think it's both, because it comes with a lot of pressure, for sure, and then there is that feeling of who, what's here, like, am I finding somebody that looks like me, and what's there to learn from? Right? So, who's gone ahead before me, and where's the where is all the mentorship? Where would that come from? Right? But I also find that I've got a lot, a ton of support from my board. Yeah, ever so supportful, self supportive and yeah, so that has helped. So it's a feeling of of there is work to be done, and, of course, a feeling of accomplishment of some sort, but more so that I I've got a bucket to feel with what's been expected, like I need to give back with what's been poured into me, right? So that's all of that, but in one hand, in the one hand, I see that I there is a gap. There is a gap in representation, for sure. I know we talk about inclusion in terms of people with disabilities, and also thinking about building capacity for young leaders and newcomer leaders coming forward, and making sure that they find a mentorship and some form of support to build capacity in leadership. In that regard, because they are usually different, different levels of expectations from a racialized person as a leader and a non racialized person. So it's all of that, all of that pressure for sure, and having to face that, and constantly telling your story or living through barriers, even as a leader, you have constant barriers you keep facing and then kind of rewriting your own story. I would say,   Michael Hingson ** 29:07 now you don't have a disability in any traditional sense, right? I   Freda Uwa ** 29:12 would say undiagnosed, because I don't know. I feel like I know I have something, but it's undiagnosed. So yes,   Michael Hingson ** 29:19 well, there you go. Something, something to figure out, right? Yes,   Freda Uwa ** 29:24 for sure. And I've always said it, it's, it's a continuum, like it's a spectrum. So it's, everybody's just one life event away from a disability, right? So you never know until you until you find out. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 29:37 of course, people have heard me say on this podcast that actually, everyone has a disability. For most of you, it's you're light dependent. You don't do well when there isn't light around for you to see what you're doing. And inventing the electric light bulb kind of led to a cover up of your disability. But it's still there. It's just that it doesn't manifest itself very often. And the reason, I think it's important. Important to take that kind of a view is that all too often, and I'd be interested in your thoughts on this, but all too often, when people think about disability, they think about, well, it's called disability because it's a lack of ability, and it isn't really, but people think less of people who they regard as traditionally having some sort of disability, and the result is that they look down on or think they're better than somebody with a disability. And I adopted the definition that we all have disabilities, they just manifest differently. In order to try to help start to level that playing field and get people to understand that in reality, we all have challenges, and we all have gifts, and we shouldn't look down on anyone just because they don't have some of the gifts that we do.   Freda Uwa ** 30:53 That's a great way to look at it. Michael, I so in recent times in my work, there is this I've heard about social location, this phrase called social location, Michael, I   Michael Hingson ** 31:07 have not heard much about that. I'm not overly familiar with it, so go ahead, I can imagine. But go ahead. Okay,   Freda Uwa ** 31:13 so that's like, exactly where you are on your social map. I would say, just to put it in a clear way, right? So it's all of those identity markers that make you, right? You might think you don't, you have it all here, but in the next high you're you're not as much privileged as the next person. So it's being on different sports in that social map, right? So I could be, let the I could, I could not have a disability that I know, but in some way I'm I'm disadvantaged, right? So it's all of that coming together and realizing that when we when we're seeking for inclusion for all, it's actually all. And the definition of all can be expanded to mean actually every single person, and not just people with stability. It's every single person ensuring, keeping, taking into consideration that you are not always at the top all the time. You could be privileged in so many areas, and then you are disadvantaged in some area. So it's that social location concept that should, that should inform our need to level the playing fields at all time.   Michael Hingson ** 32:31 Yeah, um, unfortunately, all too often, people won't adopt that principle, and they won't adopt that mindset. So they really think that they're better than others. The unemployment rate among persons with disabilities is still very high compared to the general population. It's still in the 50 to 60% range. And it's not because people with disabilities can't work. It's that people who don't happen to have those same disabilities think that people with those disabilities can't work and so as a result, they're never given the opportunity.   Freda Uwa ** 33:11 Yeah, that's a constant struggle, for sure. Yeah, and that's why we do what we do,   Michael Hingson ** 33:16 right, which is very important to do. So you, you, you work as the executive director, is the CEO of the organization. Do you do all the independent living centers, then do a lot of work with consumer organizations and other things in their local areas, so that they keep very close ties to consumers.   Freda Uwa ** 33:44 Oh, for sure, that's the, that's that's the that's the structure of innovative living Canada, right? So il Canada and il member centers are close to the local communities. So all il member centers are community based centers. So they're, they're in the communities and partnering with, partnering with local communities to meet any unmet needs for persons with disabilities. Okay, yeah, so, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 34:15 So now you're, you're obviously more in an administrative kind of role, but what kind of involvement or or interactions do you have with like consumers and consumer organizations? That's a tricky   Freda Uwa ** 34:29 question, right? So I I've only been here one year. Yeah, I understand. I can speak to the last 11 months, right? So so far with consumer organizations, I am only, only partnered in terms of a project or a research it's still a project or project, right? So whether it's but I feel like that comes from the centers as well, because my the independent living centers. You. Get us involved in partnerships that it's just beyond them, right? So we get partnership partnership, and we need to standing as a national organization to get three or four of our IELTS member centers into that partnership. So that's the level we play. More like we the go between and giving that voice to them. But generally I am more of the administrator than being involved in consumer agencies or organizations, right?   Michael Hingson ** 35:32 Yeah, no, I understand that's I was just wondering if, if, if there is involvement, or how you ever get to interact with them, because I would think that working with consumer organizations in some manner can strengthen what you do as an organization.   Freda Uwa ** 35:51 Yeah, yeah, for sure, we're still, we are open to partnerships, for sure, but it's a process. It's yeah, it's a process, and then for sure, it's what the local centers are needing, and that's what we are doing at the national level, right? So it's, it's a, it's a two way street with the local sense, local member centers. We are nothing without our member centers. So that, yeah, right,   Michael Hingson ** 36:13 right. No, I understand. Well, that's that is still pretty cool, though, and it gives you, it gives you some freedom, and it gives you the ability to look at things from a higher level. But I would assume that it also gives you the opportunity, then to look at how you can work and make a difference in the whole independent living process around Canada.   Freda Uwa ** 36:39 That's for sure. That's for sure. There is work for sure, and that's what we have started doing. So there's a lot of traction happening right now, and just taking one day at a time and reviewing all our partnerships and building other collab partnerships and collaborating in other areas as well. So yeah, I agree. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 37:01 Yeah. Now, I didn't say it earlier, but we met through Sheldon Lewis at accessibe. So I guess you have, have you looked at accessibe as a product, and are you working with Sheldon on that sort of thing, or, or, How is accessibe involved with the Independent Living Center movement in Canada, I   Freda Uwa ** 37:21 would say we are currently having that conversation right now. So, yes,   Michael Hingson ** 37:28 well, so, so at this point, you're looking to see where it might fit and and how, how it would work. Yeah.   Freda Uwa ** 37:39 So we're reviewing all of that. We are reviewing the product and going through the board and test running everything. So, yeah, so just reviewing, what, how that works, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 37:49 So you're actually, so you're actually testing it and looking at it to see what it does and doesn't do and so on.   Freda Uwa ** 37:55 Exactly, yes.   Michael Hingson ** 37:57 What about the whole concept, from your standpoint of Internet access and inclusion, the problem that we see overall is that in our world, maybe 3% of websites have really made an effort to put something on their site to make the website accessible or inclusive, but Most places still haven't done that. How do we change   Freda Uwa ** 38:22 that? I think this is as it's it's still the whole package, about 31 step at a time, and I'm very careful, and I caution against tokenism and just wanting to do something because you want to check up the boxes, right? Yeah, what? What's the intention? Really? Are you really concerned about your consumers, your customers, your clients? Are you really wanting to reach everybody, and everybody, right? So what does that look like for you? So I'm Yeah, it's concerning, for sure, that we have such low percentage of people of websites who are looking into being more accessible and not just checking off one box, right? So, and it's broad, it's really broad because accessibility is it's not just one thing, right? So internet accessibility for sure, it's the next big thing. And at our planned AGM coming up here in September, we are, that's the key, the the main theme of our of our meeting, it's AI and the future of accessibility for all. So, yeah, so that is a good thing that you asked it, because we are looking to build a future where accessibility is second nature to everybody.   Michael Hingson ** 39:51 Someone said something once, and I think is a is a really wonderful thought to have, and that is that we a. All look forward to the day when we are so inclusive that access, or accessibility is a term that we forget and never have to use anymore, because it's just so automatic.   Freda Uwa ** 40:12 I like that. I like that. That's second nature, right? So we don't have to think about it like this is what it is. It's universal. It's a universal design. This is right. Want to see, right? So, and again, like I said, it's not you're not doing it for them. It's not an us, them conversation. It's for all of us, because it's one live event from one disability to the next. So it's creating a world where everybody can thrive, and I empowered to thrive equally, right? Yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 40:44 I think that is that is so important, and I hope that that day comes sooner than later, but I think it's still a ways off, but I think it is one of those things to really strive for, because as as you and I have both talked about today, everyone has gifts. We all don't have the same gifts, and no one should look down on anyone else just because we're different in some way. And yet, unfortunately, all too often, we do, which is a problem.   Freda Uwa ** 41:20 Yeah, that's right, Michael. And that's, it's really sad how the world has turned humans against humans. And that's, that's not the world we want to see. You know, I'll tell you something that's a renowned writer in Nigeria, Chimamanda dice, she spoke about the evil word for love. IBO is my local dialect, my native tongue, and the evil word for love, love is if unanya And that, what that literally translates to is, I see you, so Michael, if I love you, I see you beyond anything else. I see you beyond your abilities, beyond your color, beyond any other identity marker that defines you. I just see your soul. So sometimes I feel like we African language is not fully the English doesn't do the English language doesn't do justice to the weight of our native tongue, right? So that's love seeing humans, seeing who you are, for who you are, nothing beyond that. So that's really, that's, that's the world I look forward to having, for sure. And   Michael Hingson ** 42:36 it is so important that we all look at each other for who we are because one characteristic doesn't define us, blindness doesn't define me, your being from Nigeria doesn't define you. It's part of your experience, but it doesn't define you, and it shouldn't.   Freda Uwa ** 42:57 Yeah, right, yeah, absolutely, yeah. Then   Michael Hingson ** 43:01 we have politicians, and they're all defined by what they do when we can pick on them. So it's okay, that's a smart move. But, but, but really, you know, it's one characteristic or whatever doesn't define us. It is part of our makeup, but it doesn't define us. And I think that's very important, that we really understand that we are the sum of everything that we do and that we are, and a lot of what we do and what we are comes from the choices that we make. And that's why I really like unstoppable mindset, because it's a podcast that really helps to show people who listen and watch that they are more unstoppable than they think they are, and what we really need to do is to bring that unstoppability out in everyone, and if it comes out in the right way, it also means that we learn how to work more closely with each other. And I think it is important that we start having more of a sense of community throughout the whole world. I   Freda Uwa ** 44:04 like that, Michael and I like your tie into the unstoppable mindset, like it's in the mind. Yeah, the seed is planted in the mind, and that's where it blossoms, and it's all the environment you give to that seed. How are you cultivating your thoughts? How are you, what are you feeding your thoughts with, right? So, how are you accepting values and projecting values and all of that? So it's in the mind. And so once the mindset is unstoppable, you can thrive, you can bloom, you can become, you can be established in every sphere that you choose. So that's, that's, that's the goal, really so, yeah, that's the unstoppable mindset for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 44:45 Yeah, it's very important. And I think that we all usually underestimate ourselves, and we need to work on not doing that. We need. To demand more of ourselves about what we do, and if we do that, and the more of that that we do, we'll find that we can go out of our what people call comfort zones, a whole lot more, and we'll find that we can do a lot more than we think that we can.   Freda Uwa ** 45:17 Yeah, and I like that. And to your point, Michael, I also, I also feel like we also need to give ourselves credits for all of what we've been through. Yeah, keep yourself the the empathy, like, take time, take a break, recharge and come back right. Like I said, growth isn't always linear. Sometimes you need to take those pauses and recognize that you need to stop, recharge and then go for it, right? So just give yourself credit for showing up. That's it. That's enough, right? You've shown up, that's enough. You've done the step one. That's enough. Show yourself some empathy, show yourself love, and that's the way it radiates to people around you, for sure,   Michael Hingson ** 46:02 I like the idea of showing yourself love you should and and I mean that, and I know that you do as well. Mean it in a positive way. It doesn't have anything to do with ego and thinking you're the greatest thing in the world since sliced bread, but it is recognizing who you are and showing yourself as much as anything that that love is also a significant part of or ought to be a significant part of your life.   Freda Uwa ** 46:29 Mm, hmm, yeah, absolutely. And show up for yourself. Show up for yourself. Yeah, you can be so many things to so many people, but how about yourself? Right? Don't show up for yourself and let yourself enjoy you as a person, right?   Michael Hingson ** 46:46 Well, I love to say, I used to say I'm my own worst critic, and I've learned that's not the right thing to say. The right thing to say is I'm my own best teacher, because I'm the only one that can really teach me. And I think that's so important to make things positive. And when something happens, it's not so positive, figure out what the issue is and how to address it, but you, but you can do that. We all can do that. Yes, right? So I think it's so important, and you can do that with   Freda Uwa ** 47:15 love as well, right? Yes, absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 47:19 That's a good one. So you do a lot of work in managing projects and so on. So what? How did you how did you get to be a good project manager? Because that's part of, obviously, what you do. Was it something you were trained to do? You've picked up on. You have a natural talent for it?   Freda Uwa ** 47:35 Yes. So I've got training in project management. And of course, like it's I did events management back in Nigeria. So it's all of that, that training, the experience and, of course, natural talents to knowing how to manage people and little programs. So that's built into the training that I also had. So yeah, it's all of everything, a bit of everything, I would say,   Michael Hingson ** 47:58 What do you think makes a good leader. That's a toughie, I know. Oh, right, Michael, you   Freda Uwa ** 48:05 don't want to do this.   Michael Hingson ** 48:09 This sounds dangerous.   Freda Uwa ** 48:10 I know, right? So, yeah. So you know what I used to say? I try, I try to make people happy, right? But it's a really difficult job to be a leader, really difficult one. But my concept of leadership is showing people how to follow. So my concept is building leaders right modeling the way for people to follow. So a good leader is a servant leader. They are listening. And you're also wanting to build leaders, and that is giving empowering your following to do as you what you've done. So you're showing them you're doing it, and you're ensuring that you're leaving no one behind. So a good leader is leading and moving her team from behind. That's my That's That's the summary of what I would say. But then that doesn't always mean you're making people happy, because I always tell I say this sometimes, that if you want to make everybody happy, you go sell ice cream, you don't want to take a leadership role, because you you might hurt some people, for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 49:27 Well, I think also it's important to to say that good leaders, and you, you mentioned it, train other people and teach other people how to be leaders. I think one of the most important things, and I always said it to every person I ever hired, was I didn't hire you so I could boss you around my hiring you because you convinced me you could do the job I'm hiring you to do. But what you and I have to do together is to figure out how I can add value and. And enhance what you do. And that's really a tricky and challenging thing, because it isn't necessarily something that, as the official leader, if you will, is is best done by me. It's oftentimes better done by the people I hire who observe me and observe all that goes on around us. And who will come and say, here's how I think I can do better with your help, and here's how I how I think you can add value to what I do. And you know, I've hired a lot of people who can't do that. They can't go there. They're just not used to that kind of model. But I do know that the ones who who understand it and who accept it and who follow through on it, those people do really well, because we learn to compliment each other and their skills and my skills, which are different, but can coalesce together to mean that the sum of the parts, or the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, because we work together.   Freda Uwa ** 51:13 That's right, Michael, that's right. And you've said it right there. Like a good leader is only as good you as a leader, you're only as good as your team, right? So you want to make the team work, right? So, yeah, that's, that's, that's my view on leadership as well. What, what's my team doing, and how am I supporting them to to thrive and become,   Michael Hingson ** 51:36 yeah, yeah, that's, that's really important, and I think that's really a big part of leadership. Certainly, leadership has to motivate and and overall coordinate the efforts of what the team does, but the best leaders also know when to let someone else take the lead because they've got better skills in a particular arena or project than someone someone else does   Freda Uwa ** 52:05 absolutely, yeah, yeah, for sure. So,   Michael Hingson ** 52:09 in addition to being the executive director of independent living Canada, what else do you do? What are your other passions or hobbies, or what other kinds of things do you like to get involved in   Freda Uwa ** 52:22 alright, that's fun. I am a red seal endorsed chef. So I cook. I love to cook. That's my escape. I cook for family. I cook for friends. I'm involved in my local community here in Saskatoon, and my local cultural community. So all of that are the things I do, and more. So I am just about publishing my first book I started a long time ago. And so, yeah, I'm also an author at night. And yeah, so yeah, I'm excited about my book. It's called Jollof life, and I'm excited for sure. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 53:04 when will it be published?   Freda Uwa ** 53:09 I don't have a date yet, but I will, I will let you know soon enough.   Michael Hingson ** 53:14 So roughly, when do you think it will be published? Just, I mean, is it six months away, a year or three months or   Freda Uwa ** 53:20 I'm thinking, I'm thinking, six months away. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 53:24 okay, cool. Well, that's exciting. That's exciting that you're, you're working on a book.   Freda Uwa ** 53:32 So do you know what Jollof is? Michael, no, what is that? Tell me. Let me. Let me coach you. So Jollof is it's a dish in Africa. It's, it's a type of rice that is cooked into my tomato, tomato, tomato broth and meat stock. And it's really, really flavorful. It's red, it's rich, and all of that. It's so good that, like I have, I'm a caterer in Nigeria. I know I need to say that when I was in Nigeria, I was a caterer. So if you go to an event, you must have a stand for Jollof rice. So it's really, it's really that good that there is a saying in Nigeria that any party without Jollof rice is just a meeting, right? There you go. It's, that is that good? So I call Jollof right, the queen of the buffet. So it's, it has to be there. It just has to be there. And it's so relevant that there is an online feud amongst African countries of Who makes the best job, right? So it's, that good, right? So I took that idea and turned that into life. What's what life that is, what makes you so relevant at what you do, and that's why I'm I switched that around to Jollof life, right? Just standing out and being the queen of your life, or the. Of your life and owning that space and just being as relevant and and having to dominate your space. So I cooked through a part of the love, right, while writing that book, and I was expressing myself through the Arabs and the flavors and cooking life through that book. So that's what the book is about.   Michael Hingson ** 55:18 Oh, that's exciting. And it makes sense that that's the title. And I kind of figured maybe that was sort of what it was when you said jolla life. But it makes, makes perfect sense, what's your favorite thing to cook?   Freda Uwa ** 55:32 And now, now that you now that you know, then it's Jollof. Of course. It's chill off.   Michael Hingson ** 55:39 What's your second favorite thing to cook. Oh,   Freda Uwa ** 55:42 pasta. Okay. I kind of feel like, I mean, earlier in my blood, right? So I love to cook pasta. That's   Michael Hingson ** 55:52 pretty cool. Do you make your own pasta from scratch or,   Freda Uwa ** 55:57 Oh, I do. I do, yes. So I Buy store bought ones, but I also make mine from scratch too. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 56:03 I bet it tastes better when you make it from scratch though. Oh,   Freda Uwa ** 56:07 it's so good. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 56:10 that's exciting. Well, and your book is coming. So what other things do you like to do besides independent living and and cooking or nutrition?   Freda Uwa ** 56:22 So, yeah, I'm, I'm involved in my local community, cultural community of women, so we are out dancing sometimes, and, you know, having local events. So that's something else that keeps me busy in the weekend. And I love, I love that I'm still, I'm able to to connect with the my culture here in Canada as well. So yeah, those are the things I love, family. I love spending time with my family. That's I've got men in my house and like that. I teach sometimes, and I say that I live with four men, right? So three of those are my boys, and one is my husband. So I take some time to have the boy time. So I'm also, I'm also, I suck myself in that as well. So I do some boy activities. So I, yeah, so yeah, that's my, my downgrade.   Michael Hingson ** 57:13 But you gotta do some girl activities too.   Freda Uwa ** 57:17 That's, that's when I have my me time. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 57:20 What's important to do? And the boys probably go off and do their things too. How old are the boys? Yeah, I've   Freda Uwa ** 57:27 got a 14 year old, an 11 year old and an eight year old.   Michael Hingson ** 57:32 Ah, so are boys? No girls, no,   Freda Uwa ** 57:37 none. Yet,   Michael Hingson ** 57:40 there's another project for you. Oh, Michael,   Freda Uwa ** 57:46 whoopee, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 57:48 I understand. No, I I appreciate that. It's, it's, that's, it's something, well, you have, you've had a lot of experiences. What do you think, or how do you think your overall life journey has made your mindset what it is.   Freda Uwa ** 58:09 Oh, boy, Michael, is I again, I said I spoke about growing and evolving. So that's the mindset. I am not there yet, like I feel like I'm not there yet. Yeah, I'm still I'm still growing and involved evolving. So it's just not being satisfied or settling for nothing short of the best. I don't like to use the word perfection, but I want to keep going and keep pushing and getting better than my just growing and getting better than yesterday. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 58:46 going and growing. And that's that's important. Well, with that in mind, if you had the opportunity to do it, what would you go back and tell your 10 year old younger self? What would you tell that 10 year old Frida, and what and more important, if you told her, would she listen? But anyway, what would you tell her?   Freda Uwa ** 59:08 She was loud. For sure she was loud. I know she'll be. She was hyperactive, so that I know, so I will let her know one step at a time you have made huge progress. You have made huge progress. I am so proud of you. I am indeed living your dreams, and I'm hoping that I have checked off most of the boxes that you've always wanted to do. So that's what I would say to my 10 year old, Frida, and I hope that she listens to that.   Michael Hingson ** 59:46 Yeah, that's the trick, of course, is with any of us is to to get the younger of us, or younger people in general, to listen all too often we just think we know everything, and it's so difficult to get people to step back and. It's one of the things that I think we really, collectively as a society, need to do a lot more of, which is at the end of the day, at the end of every day, step back. Think about what happened. How can you improve what happened? Even the good stuff, but especially the things that didn't necessarily go as you planned. Step back and look at them and adopt a mindset that you want to teach yourself how to do it better, whatever it is that that is that has got to be a way that we can help get others and ourselves to listen more than we tend to do.   Freda Uwa ** 1:00:33 Mm, hmm, yes, for sure, and and looking to give back as well. Like, are you coaching and mentoring people. So, yeah, yeah. So if there are any freedoms out there, you can always reach out to people that would speak and leave seeds in your hearts of greatness, like see the good in every situation. Like I did, see a good in the conversation that I I heard about that lady or that woman at the time. So that is a good in every situation you meet, right? So you pick the seed that you want, you want, and then water it and nurture it to grow and grow, you always find,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:13 yeah, and I think that we, we can do that. We can do a lot more of that than we tend to do, but I think it's important that we we do our best. And you talked about servant leadership, and it's as much about serving yourself and your soul as it is about being a servant leader to other people. Absolutely. And the thing that we never, well, I won't say we never, but the thing that we don't do nearly as much as we probably could, is listen to our own inner voice that probably has the answers we seek, if we would but learn to listen for them. Mm,   Freda Uwa ** 1:01:45 hmm, absolutely, yeah. And I like I like that to your point, serve yourself too, right? So for seven leaders, serve yourself. Listen to yourself, take those pauses, give yourself credit for all your hard work. And you know, sometimes you get that guilt when you want to spoil yourself. I'm like, Okay, this body made this money, right? So I need to take care of this body. So that's, that's, yeah, that's, that's a way to give yourself some credit, like physical treats, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:17 yeah, physical treats. And not necessarily overdoing it, but physical treats and and mental treats too. This this weekend is a holiday in the United States, and I know that I'm going to take some downtime just to to kind of relax. I think it's important that we all do that all too often when people go on vacations. I'm sure it's true up there too, but it's so true down here, they go on a vacation, they go somewhere, they do a lot of hiking and a lot of work, and when they come back from the vacation, they need a vacation because they work so hard.   Freda Uwa ** 1:02:51 Oh yeah, tell me about it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:55 And it's it's important for us to learn to rest and let our, let our brains recuperate too. Let our, let our mind recuperate. But, you know, yeah,   Freda Uwa ** 1:03:06 it comes I, I needed that. I needed that for sure. It's a long weekend here in Canada as well. Oh yeah, so I'm just going to unplug and take some downtime and recharge, right? So it's needed for sure. It   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:21 is that's that's good. Well, you know this, this has been a lot of fun to do, and I've, I've enjoyed it, and I want to thank you for being on and I want to thank all of you who are listening to us and watching us. We really appreciate you being here. I hope that you've enjoyed what Frida has had to say, if people want to reach out to you and maybe talk with you in some manner or contact you, how do they do that? Hi.   Freda Uwa ** 1:03:47 Oh, so I'm on Instagram and I'm on LinkedIn, Freda Owa , and   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:53 yeah, is UWA, yes,   Freda Uwa ** 1:03:56 UWA, UWA. So that's Frida or right on LinkedIn. And of course, you can reach out to IO Canada website and ask to speak to me. So, yeah. Well, cool. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:12 I hope people will do that. I hope that everyone has enjoyed all of all of our discussions and your insights today, if you did enjoy it, we would really appreciate you. Wherever you're listening to us, give us a five star rating. We value your reviews and ratings very highly. If you'd like to reach out to me, you are welcome to do so. I'm easy to find. You can email me at Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, so I'd love to hear from you. If you know of anyone who you think would be a guest, that we ought to have an unstoppable mindset. Freda to you as well. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest, we want to hear from you. Just before we started this podcast, I received an email from someone who said, I got a great guest. You said, If. I found anyone that I should reach out, and I'm reaching out. I got this great person. So we hope that all of you will will do that, and that you will stick with us, and you'll be back next week to listen to more of or our next episode, more of unstoppable mindset. We really appreciate your time and value the fact that you're here. So once again, Freda, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and we ought to do it again sometime,   Freda Uwa ** 1:05:28 for sure. Thanks for having me, Michael, and good luck, and very well done. Job with the unstoppable mindset.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:05:40 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

On this episode we get to meet and listen to Sydney Elaine Butler. I definitely believe Sydney is unstoppable for many reasons. First, growing up she had a speech disability as she will describe to us. Also, however, along the way she was diagnosed with other disabilities including being on the autism spectrum. Like all of us who are different from the “norm” Sydney had her share of challenges from others. However, she learned to deal with them and move forward.   In college she decided to get a degree in business and eventually she determined to enter the human resources field. After being out of college for only a bit over a year and during the time of the pandemic, Sydney formed her own company, Accessible Creates. She consults with companies and company leaders primarily about disabilities and she helps to create better retention and overall attitudinal environments for employees with disabilities.   We discuss many of the issues faced in the workplace and beyond by people with disabilities. I believe you will find Sydney's views and attitudes quite refreshing and often innovative. I hope Sydney has offered some takeaways you can use in your own worlds.       About the Guest:   HR Professional | Founder, Speaker, and HR/DEIA Consultant at Accessible Creates | DEIB Facilitator | They/Them Pronouns   It is Sydney's understanding that their professional purpose must be to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to be successful regardless of barriers in their way and that they must as a professional remove these barriers. Sydney conducts training and consulting for other companies on how to be more Accessible and Inclusive from a Human approach and how to recruit and retain more diverse individuals through the lens of Intersectionality/Human Resources as well as other areas of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in an authentic manner at the company they founded called Accessible Creates due to understanding the barriers that exist within the workplace for diverse individuals.   Ways to connect with Sydney:   https://linktr.ee/sydneyelainebutler Website: https://www.accessiblecreates.ca/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well and a gracious hello to you, wherever you happen to be today, I am Michael Hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected mean, and it's deliberately called that, as I've explained a few times before, because most of the time when people talk about diversity, they never talk about disabilities. They talk about sexual orientation and gender and race and so on, but disabilities get left out. In fact, I talked to one person on this podcast who said, when I observed you don't mention disabilities. Oh, that social justice. It isn't the same. Heck, it's not anyway. Leaving that aside for the moment. Our guest today is someone I've been looking forward to chatting with for a while. In her name is Sydney. Elaine Butler, and Sydney is in Canada, and she has formed a company actually called accessible creates Cindy. Sydney is very familiar with disability. She has some and I'll leave that to her, to you know, to talk about, but she brings an empathy and understanding. I think that's extremely important, and that all of you will appreciate listening to. So let's get on with it. And Sydney, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset and really glad you're here.   Sydney Elaine Butler ** 02:43 Thank you so much for having me. Michael, well,   Speaker 1 ** 02:46 it's my pleasure, and we're really glad that you're able to finally get here. We've been working on this for a while, and we've had to postpone a few times. Sydney's had one thing or another going on, but that's okay. We, we, we are unstoppable, so we always find a way to succeed, right? Exactly. Well, why don't you tell us a little bit, maybe, about the early Sydney, growing up and some of those things. Yes, to start at   Sydney Elaine Butler ** 03:11 the beginning, right? Oh, where do I start? Um, so growing up, I first knew I had a speech impediment, and so I couldn't say my R's properly, and sometimes I would speak too fast. Sometimes still do tell me to slow down if I need to, but I sometimes I wouldn't speak because I was too scared to say my R is wrong and to speak too quickly. And so I had to go to speech therapy from a young age, and didn't understand that it was really different. You know, I just realized that all my other classmates living class to go do this, but it was mindful, and it's what I knew. I also walked on my tippy toes a lot. So then I had to start going to physical therapy, and I was also playing soccer, and my parents told me a lot of different things to get me active and to get out there. And then we also the Girl Guides of Canada, which is like, equivalent to Girl Scouts in America. And so I enjoyed that, and that's when I started to really find, find my voice and find what I'd like to do, and start becoming more outgoing and starting to exploit when things   Speaker 1 ** 04:27 Ah, okay, so was the speech impediment a manifestation of something else or what?   Sydney Elaine Butler ** 04:36 Yeah, so my dad also had a speech impediment growing up. I think it was just, it wasn't, I think in hindsight, it was tied to my neurodivergency, but didn't really know what that meant at the time, and at the time, we've seen a separate and knew that, I think a lot of people think that the speech impediments, i. Or something you go out of and think about a lot of kids have speech impediments, and so sometimes now it still manifests as I stutter sometimes, because then my brain goes too fast and my mouth can't catch up. Yeah. And so just realizing that my brain thinks a little differently, and I think that had a part to   Speaker 1 ** 05:17 play in well. So along the way, you discovered that you were also involved with other disabilities, I guess,   Speaker 2 ** 05:25 yes, and so I think I also I kind of had depression when I was in high school. And so I think that led to me not knowing, you know, if I wanted to be alive or not, frankly. And so back to other disabilities and understanding that all these different things. So like, I felt like had to almost do the camouflage and blend in to like, for example, I say, would hang out with the nerds and be more nerdy, or hanging over the jocks and be more of a jock. And it didn't really have a sense of self. I think that played a role in that, in my mental health and being having other disabilities.   Michael Hingson ** 06:08 How did your parents handle all of that?   Speaker 2 ** 06:12 I think they just treated me as you know, their child, you know, and they, for example, they would want me to go on to teach therapy. Oh, I need physical therapy now, because I'm walking my tippy toes and my my calf were too tight. And so they just did the best they could, and tried, you know, a lot of people, I think they never tried Kindle that was different. They just okay, this is what city needs to do the best and he can. And so I am very thankful for them for that, because I never felt like I was different. I just knew I had needed to get different things to be successful, but I didn't really know the details and the depth of what was happening.   Speaker 1 ** 06:55 When, when did you figure all of that out? Or when did doctors or whatever, finally come up with a diagnosis that made sense.   Speaker 2 ** 07:05 Yeah, I think when my after, shortly after, I started college, and I was like, kind of, I'm still living at home, but really think that kind of becoming more independent, seeing that I could do some things I could do really well, and other things I was struggling with, and then going to the doctors, explaining the things I was experiencing, and really understanding that, oh, okay, this and that, you know, finding out what is happening with me and how to best help myself and help and being patient with myself. Because I think a lot of times you can get so frustrated because you don't know exactly what's wrong, but you know something's wrong. And so I think by getting that, helping doctors, and getting help, even just expressing my limitations, and also I was, at the same time myself, helping kids, teens and hours with disabilities, and I related to them so much. And so I think that's what prompted me to go to the doctors in the first place and be like, I relate more to this population. Why is this and why am I so good at my job working with these individuals, we were others that I felt like, I was like, don't and so just seeing that, oh, yeah, that makes more sense, that, you know, autistic and all these different things that make up who I am,   Speaker 1 ** 08:22 right? So how long ago was it that you were in college?   Speaker 2 ** 08:28 I was so I was in college. I started in 2015 okay? And I graduated in 2018 and then I went to university from 2018 to 2020 because my college actually offered, the university offered a duty completion program, and so that was really beneficial. So   Speaker 1 ** 08:46 you were fairly recent in in the process, I've had some people on unstoppable mindset who were in their 30s before someone was able to accurately diagnose that they were different because they had autism, and I know that it is, for example, autism, and I know that for the longest time, people just didn't know how to to understand it or describe it. So at least in a sense, I guess although it still took a while for them to figure out with you still it was, it was better that it happened now than years ago when they weren't able to explain it or or even really understand it.   Speaker 2 ** 09:32 Yeah, and I think this is misconception that I think previously in the years, like you said, it was more like either there was very specific criteria around what they thought autism was, but now we understand it's a spectrum and how it impacts, you know, people that you know, males versus females. And so I think it's like, oh, you know, the lack of empathy is seen associated with autism. But like you said at the beginning, I have lots of empathy. And I think have hyper empathy, you should have to use a thing in females that are autistic.   Speaker 1 ** 10:07 Okay, so what did you get your college and university degrees in?   Speaker 2 ** 10:13 Yeah, so I studied Business Administration, human resources. So my aunt actually, she was human resources on a cruise ship. And I thought at first, when I was applying for university and in college, I because at college first, because I thought I was actually going to be environmentalist, because I high level. I've always wanted to change the world. So I thought, you know, with climate change and global warming was like, I want to be an advocate and talk about, you know, what's it better do to help the planet? But I didn't have the math grades for that. That was one of my strong suits and so. But I also took business as an elective in school. Like, oh, this seems like an interesting elective. I'll take it, and actually did quite well in it. And I like people helping people. And I thought, you know human resources, even though we know they mostly help the employer, I can also help people in the workplace. And there's so many different diverse aspects of human resources. And so that's why I decided to study human resources in school.   Michael Hingson ** 11:18 You just avoided the math part of business, huh?   Speaker 2 ** 11:20 There is, there was still math in business. But it's funny because I actually took statistics during my college and that that math made a lot of sense to me, like my brain. I became a statistics tutor, actually, and it was so funny seeing the one eight, the 180 of how I did math in high school versus how? And now I'm doing math while also paying for COVID Now,   Speaker 1 ** 11:46 well, at least you made it through, yes, which is, which is pretty cool. So when you, when you got out of college and university, what did you do? How soon? Well, let me just ask, What did you do? Start with that. So   Speaker 2 ** 12:05 I graduated from university in 2020, December, and so that was quite a challenge, as you can imagine, because I was actually supposed to have an internship that summer, and then the world shut down. And I remember I had an interview on my mom's birthday, March 18, which is the day the world shut down. And then they sent me an email that Friday and said, if it wasn't for the pandemic, for what's the COVID variant of the COVID virus that's going around, you would be getting the shop. This is a tip, but unfortunately, now we're closing our doors because of the pandemic. Yeah? And that was very frustrating, because I was like, I could have had this traditional and it was HR. Was it HR position mixed with statistics, and I just mentioned my love of statistics. And so it was going to be perfect, right? But it didn't happen. And so then I had another interview the last week of before I graduated from my degree. And again, I said, if you just had a little bit more experience in human resources, you would have got the job. And so if I got that job back when I had the internship, I would have bought this job. And I was very frustrated and but I didn't let that stop me. I was like, Okay, what kind of HR jobs do I want to have? What impact do I want to leave on human resources? Because right now, the market is a mess. You know, a lot of people losing their jobs and don't have jobs and love companies are still closed from the pandemic, because we're still very much in the thick of it in December of 2020, and so I started attending human resource webinars, volunteering with other we actually have a local HR association here where you can get your designation from, and I was part of it, and they got a discount because I was a student not too long ago. And instead of volunteering with them, seeing how I consist, and then they actually had a big conference, and I met someone there that helped them. He had to take down 500 emails. He's like, Oh, can you take down 500 emails? Because we're not going to finish this webinar on time. Can you take down 500 emails? And I'm there, kind of with my new COVID Puppy in bed, because I didn't have my camera on, just taking down all the emails. He said, Oh, can you send it to me? And so I sent him the email. And so actually worked at the HR startup. He had a little bit because he messaged me. He's like, I'm impressed that you took down this email so fast. Do you want to come work at an HR startup with me? And at the time, new grad, wanted to get my feet wet. Want to see what happens. And so I joined there, um, but he was bootstrapping, and so he can only pay me peanuts, basically. And I was also, he's, like, he's, I encourage you to look for traditional work, but you can also get getting some experience here. I. And so I did that. And then also, then I actually applied for summer job, virtually and remotely, for a nonprofit organization called Skills for change. And I was like, I'm passionate about accessibility and disability inclusion and HR and human resources. And I was their HR clerk for eight weeks because the Canadian government actually paid for it. They have a Canada Summer Jobs Program, but they gained funding, and I made the recruitment process more accessible. I during Obama's session, I talked about disability pride month, because I was there during Disability Pride Month, and really that I posted that on LinkedIn and some research like, Hey, do you want to come speak about neurodiversity in the workplace? I saw your presentation that you posted on LinkedIn, and I was like, okay, so I did that. And I really liked doing presentations and so and then I realized I could do more by starting my own company. I applied for a traditional job still, but maybe I can get my foot in the door by starting my own company doing little trainings about HR, disability inclusion, neurodiversity. What does that look like? And, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 16:15 so when did you so that's how you started accessible creates.   Speaker 2 ** 16:18 It was kind of informally starting accessible creates, you know, just like, it was kind of like planting the seed, I say. But then it was just like, I also, I was like, maybe I can make like, wellness bracelets as well. And like, they all these different things, and make fidget toys, and have all these different proponents. And then it kind of branched off to okay, I can do presentations. Oh, I think people also looking for consultants that have a unique skill set to look at policies and procedure, to look at job descriptions. And so it kind of took off into a world of itself,   Speaker 1 ** 16:53 all right, well, and so you're, you're still doing it.   Speaker 2 ** 16:59 Yes, it's going to be three years a month from today, actually. Wow, August 31   Michael Hingson ** 17:06 Wow. It'll be how long on August 31   17:09 two years, three years, which is cool.   Speaker 1 ** 17:13 Well, so you're, you're obviously having some, some good success with it.   Speaker 2 ** 17:20 I feel very lucky, but I'm also like, the amount of nos you get as a business owner or someone just trying to put your services out there, like, this is what I have to offer. And so I feel you're so lucky. You got all these opportunities on like, the amount of people that say no to me, or, you know, the things you don't see behind the scenes. And so just keeping at it and building my network and building my connections is so important. And so and finding people, I think sometimes, as business owners and entrepreneurs, we want to help everyone, but we can't help everyone, right? And so finding that niche, okay, who can I really support here in this area?   Speaker 1 ** 17:59 So what are you finding? Are the areas or the kinds of places where you specialize?   Speaker 2 ** 18:05 Yeah, I found like, because, again, I have that human resources background and so leveraging that. I think it's funny because when I first started it as, okay, my I'm going to do, I was kind of advertising as I have HR knowledge with like, also have this expertise of disability understanding, disability inclusion, accessibility in neurodiversity. And now it's kind of been like, now people like, Oh, you're the neuro diversity person that talks about neurodiversity there in Canada or talks about disability inclusion. I can also do human resource consulting. They're like, oh, we need an HR consultant, but we want to sprinkle in those other things. And so people that are looking for that niche is really cool and really impactful, and also looking at policies and procedures, I think is because it's a huge undertaking and to really and so finding the niche of clients that they know they need to modify the policies and procedures, but they just kind of overwhelmed, and don't know where to start. And so that's where I come in, yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 19:08 And so you're able to help create policy or modify policy. And yes, what's, what's probably, would you say the biggest misconception that you have encountered when you're dealing with companies regarding the whole idea of disabilities,   Speaker 2 ** 19:26 yeah, I think the biggest misconception is that it's only the entry level position that people with disabilities want jobs, especially because actually most people with disabilities that actually were more likely to get post secondary education and to continue getting educated. And so it's really interesting to see the bias that employers have against people with disabilities. And think, Oh, you get, you know, this funding from the government to help, you know, pay people with disabilities that can't work, but that's not enough money. They're like, Oh, that's enough money you can live on that you can. Live on that and really understanding that if someone wants to work, they should be able to work. And that accommodation is not you getting more to do your job, it's leveling the playing field to make sure you can do your job and be successful at your job, and everyone deserves that. And   Speaker 1 ** 20:17 how are you able to change attitudes and perceptions about that?   Speaker 2 ** 20:24 Yeah, I really kind of challenge like, Oh, what do you currently think of disability, you know, and really making them think internally and like, you don't have to say it out loud. You don't have to, you know, just getting them thinking, why do you have this misconception of disability? What does what disability representation Have you seen in media, right? And so what really challenging what they think of when they think of disability. And so I remember, I was actually talking about HR strategy and accessibility strategy and merging them together at a conference I spoke at last year. And I was like, Oh, I left my cane at home. You can't tell today. And there was such because they were kind of like they were paying attention. But they weren't, like, folio paying attention. You can tell them about folio paying attention. So I made that joke, and then everyone was kind of like, there was like, a little bit of Lacher in silence, and then they were completely interested. It's like, okay. They're like, Oh, yeah, wait. Why did I, you know, have this misconception of what a disability looks like? And so it's like, let's get get into it,   Speaker 1 ** 21:31 and at least then you're able to open the discussion. You know, I've talked about it on unstoppable mindset a few times, but I have a different definition of disability than than most people. And I'll explain very briefly. People keep saying to me, well, disability, I say, disability doesn't mean a lack of ability. And they say, Well, of course it does, because disability starts with dis, and I say, Well, okay, but what about disciple, discern, discreet and so on. They all start with this, and they're not negative. No, disability isn't a lack of ability. And over the last year, a few things have happened that caused me to to come up with a different definition. And mainly it came about because I was at a hotel in Hollywood, California last year at three in the afternoon when we lost power in and around the hotel, and suddenly everybody started to scream, and they're running around trying to find or reaching for flashlights and smartphones and so on. And I realized disability is something that everyone has sighted. People have a disability, and their disability is their light dependent and and the reality is that we need to recognize that, in fact, everyone has a disability. Every single person with eyesight has the disability of being light dependent. Now, at the same time, you cover up your disability, because Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb, and we have worked so hard to create light on demand that disabilities are covered up. Disability of light dependence is covered up. It is until it can't be, because suddenly the power goes out or whatever. But the reality is, everyone in this world has a disability. The thing is that disability is a characteristic that manifests itself differently for different people. It doesn't mean, though, that you don't have it. Of course, most sighted people won't necessarily buy into that, until suddenly they're stuck without light for a good period of time. It doesn't change the fact, though, that their disability gets covered up.   Speaker 2 ** 23:50 That's that's a very good point. Michael, I think again, that what is the perception of what a disability actually is and how someone interacts with it, and then how it impacts how someone shows up in the world and how the world views them. And so I think really understanding that, again, it's a spectrum it impacts, and then this is so many different types of disabilities, and what does it actually mean to be disabled?   Speaker 1 ** 24:19 Well, and that's and that's exactly it. That's why I use the definition that everyone has a disability. It's just that it manifests itself differently for different people. And we need to start to recognize that, and if we really intellectually recognize that, then we begin to change our thought about what a disability is and recognize that maybe it has nothing to do with how well people think or how well people can work. We just need to use and find alternatives when necessary. I mean, look at look. At most buildings, office buildings, they have lights so that people can see where to go, to walk down a corridor, or they have Windows people can look out, or sometimes open for heater or whatever. But typically, they don't necessarily open, but they have a lot of different kinds of things to accommodate light dependent people, computer monitors, but they won't necessarily buy a screen reader for a person who is blind, even though that screen reader might not even cost as much as a monitor. Today, you have coffee machines that are touch screen we provide so many accommodations for employees based solely on eyesight, for example, or right handedness, or any number of other kinds of things. And we we really need to learn as a society to move beyond that. But that's where the challenge is, of course, isn't it?   Speaker 2 ** 25:58 Yes, I think it's a we're constantly making accommodations and making adjustments or making things easier for humans, you know. And how does accessibility play a role in that, and making sure that everyone has the ability to access what they need to access, and to do it the best way they can.   Speaker 1 ** 26:19 So how would you in and, of course, I've, I've perhaps messed this up by coming up with the definition of disability that I did. How would you find accessibility? How would you define it? Today,   Speaker 2 ** 26:34 I feel like disability is more like I feel like people think it's like the medical condition you have or the experience you have, but I really think it's like the barriers that people put in place, you know, and like the editorial barriers someone's values is towards someone that looks different or appears different, someone's barrier the barriers to accessing different tools and different resources and really understanding that in disability can be permanent, it can be temporary, it can be situational, kind of like you were getting at with that everyone has a disability and that it it can it looks different every day, and that there's No one size fits all right, have disability, and it's embedded ability as a spectrum.   Michael Hingson ** 27:26 So then, how would you find accessibility?   Speaker 2 ** 27:30 Yeah, so I think accessibility is synonymous for a lot of people, for people providing access, for people with disabilities, but I define accessibility as people have resources they need to do their day to day or to be successful girls that have a disability or not,   Speaker 1 ** 27:52 Right? And it's all about education, isn't it?   27:58 Yes?   Speaker 1 ** 28:02 So in the HR world, what could, what could HR do, and how can we deal with making human resources more accessible and inclusive for people with disabilities?   Speaker 2 ** 28:19 I think right now, Human Resources HR is trained to really, oh, look, we recruit, we want to recruit more people with disabilities. We want to hire more people with disabilities, but understand that there's 25% only 25% of people that have disability actually disclose in the workplace that they have a disability, and disclose to human resources they have a disability. And meanwhile, there's probably a lot more than that in the organization and in the workplace. And so we're looking, okay, what are your retention strategies look like for developing people that have, you know, disabilities? What is, why is, you know, looking at management? Why is it? Oh, you're doing good this job, this promote you to management. Okay, not everyone wants to become a manager, or it isn't, you know, have the skills become a manager. Okay? What a you know? What other approaches you can use to develop an employee? How can you look at your culture to evaluate how people with disabilities are treated and how they feel? Is it is in finding out where those gaps are, or most people with disabilities having those issues with management, because management's not understanding how to better accommodate and support employees with disabilities. Is it the co workers making that experience as human resources themselves causing these issues, and really figuring out where the issues lie for that particular organization, and increasing learning how to better increase retention?   Speaker 1 ** 29:41 So what do you? What do you do with accessible creates and so on, to really help in the education process and to helping with with truly having more of a higher retention for persons with disabilities? Yes.   Speaker 2 ** 29:57 So I, for example. To audit the policies and procedures, see how they regards to accessibility. They have any language around accessibility, because a lot of organizations, you know, there's the ADA in America, and they have that in their policies and procedures. Meanwhile, the ADA is just the bare minimum and just coming to actually get a lawsuit. But what are the best practices you're actually implementing? Do you have an accommodation policy procedure so people know how that can be accommodated, and managers and resources know how to best accommodate that employee, you know, and then also providing provide coaching. So brand coaching, if you know, for example, for the narrative version to our disabled employee and they need a bit more assistance knowing how to better advocate for their rights and advocate for themselves in the workplace. So also working in conjunction doing a management training on okay, if your employee comes to you with this information, what, what do you do and how to address that, and how to make sure that someone feels safe enough to disclose or discuss disclose that they need support from you to better do their job, yeah?   Speaker 1 ** 31:01 How do you deal with the employer, or even someone in HR, but somebody in authority at a company that says, Well, yeah, you raise good points and we'll implement them, but it takes time. We just can't jump into it.   Speaker 2 ** 31:18 Yeah? I I say, you know, like good things take time, but really understanding that, I think a lot of times, sometimes they scared to make the wrong choice and make the wrong decision. But I think also, just like by not doing anything and not taking the time to do things, take time, we all know this, and being able to be transparent with your employees. Hey, we're implementing this thing. Because I think a lot of times management, or, you know, human resources, are doing these good initiatives, but they're not communicating that to the fellow employees what's being done. And so I think just being transparent and being able to be flexible and be open with, you know, the employees, and being honest, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 32:06 it is hard, because people really tend to think that we got to move slow. But the reality is, if you don't take the leap and start recognizing you're treating some people in a substandard way, and make the conscious effort to change it, then you won't. I mean, we have, we have seen so many shifts in the world. Smartphones came along, and everyone adopted them very quickly, because they saw the value of it. And I've dealt with people who are interested in making their internet websites more accessible, and some of them say, well, we got to do it, because if we don't, we'll get sued. And some people say, and rightly so, we've got to do it because it's the right thing to do. But when you then switch that to Well, what about hiring people with disabilities and so on, or what about changing attitudes within your organization? It's Well, that just takes more time, and I question whether it really should take more time, or should you really adopt a policy and then work to bring people up to it. Yeah,   Speaker 2 ** 33:23 I think it's kind of a mix of both, you know, I think it's obviously, it's going to take time, but also, what are you putting in place to get it most efficiently and get it as quickly as possible, to make it as much people understand, to make to really break down those barriers and to get people having these discussions and having these conversations and just challenging what the norm was in the organization, and why do we have these preconceptions of what disability is in the workplace, and disability inclusion and things are going to take time, and that's okay, but Really understanding okay how are you saying yourself and your organization are for the best success to better support all people in the organization? And   Speaker 1 ** 34:08 that's really the issue, isn't it? Because it's all about conversation. It's all about education. And the biggest problem I see in general in terms of dealing with people with disabilities within organizations or anywhere with the law, with whatever is that we just don't engage in the conversation, and probably some of that is fear. Oh my gosh. I don't want to become blind like them, and it could happen to me. I gotta avoid that, or or any other disability I might end up in a wheelchair. I don't want to do that. And so there's, there is a level of fear that enters into it, but also it is just having the conversation and starting to really make people more aware of you. What disabilities really are and what they're not, and doing more of a concerted effort to make that conversation happen, I think we'll do more to help educate and get people to move and realize maybe our attitudes and our ideas aren't what we thought they should be. Yeah,   Speaker 2 ** 35:19 and it's like understanding, why is there that fear? You know, it's like because of what how media portrays it. It's because of stories you've heard, you know. And we all have our different struggles, you know, going back to your point about what you said, you know, we all have disability in some ways. We all have different struggles. We're all human beings. We all have good and bad days. And so what is the fear stem from? And, you know, people, a lot of people, are scared to say the wrong thing, but the worst thing you can say is nothing at all, right? And, you know, and so I think, like, well, I don't want to say the wrong thing about disability. I don't want to, you know, the cancel culture, or wherever they call, you know, these days, yeah. And so it's just like, the worst thing you can do is not say anything, because, you know, just negative your own growth and the organization's growth by not even wanting to make those mistakes. And you know the difference between intention and impact. You know, it's maybe so impact someone if you say the wrong thing, but be like, Hey, I'm learning. You know, even if you're a management or human resources, I'm learning every day. Can you know I'm going to make mistakes? And again, that transparency piece is so important, because we all know we're humans, we're going to make mistakes. And I think sometimes an organization, they really put managers and human resources on a pedestal that it shouldn't be the case because Ken, we're all human. At the end of the day, we're all, you know, here to do a job, and we're going to make mistakes, and that's okay. And so really coming off the pedestal be like, I'm learning. I want to do better how you know, and being vocal and being transparent about that is so crucial.   Speaker 1 ** 36:56 I think you raise a really good point. And I think that that the issue is, as you said, saying nothing is the worst thing that you can do. But I also think whether some of us who have disabilities, in the traditional sense of the word, if I'm going to use that, some of us don't want to be teachers. We're tired of having to explain. But the reality is, we are the best teachers. We are other than are. We're the best information providers, and we really should understand and be patient, because if we know that really, people behave as they do because it's an educational issue and they haven't got the education, who's in a better position than we are to address that and and so I agree with what you're saying. One of the things that I hear all the time is, well, you're visually impaired, which I think is the worst thing that anyone can say about anyone who has any kind of eyesight issue. We're not visually impaired, visually we're not different. We're not visually different and impaired, we are not it's like Deaf people have learned if you say deaf or hearing impaired, they're they're liable to execute you on the spot. They recognize that it's deaf or hard of hearing and slowly, although not nearly fast enough, blind people are starting to learn visually impaired is the wrong thing to say, because it contributes to the lack of understanding. Because you say impaired and we're not blind, and low vision is a lot more relevant, and certainly not not negative. But if we aren't willing to help educate, then we're doing our own disservice to all   Speaker 2 ** 38:47 of us. Yeah, I think to your point that you know, it's like, sometimes we're tired of explaining things and don't want to advocate, but we're the best teachers, and we're also giving that space to it's like, do you want to share? Do you want to talk about your experiences? Do you feel comfortable? Do you feel up to talking about it? Hey, I don't feel like talking about it right now. Little time, and that's really okay, or little time, oh, I'm willing to educate you today and explain my experiences to you. And so I think there's sometimes too much pressure that of people like, oh, I always say, I'm like, ask people questions. People want to answer your questions, but they don't have capacity. You don't have the energy to answer your questions. That's okay. But hey, another time and be okay with that. Yeah. And I think just giving as human beings, giving each other compassion and giving each other that grace so important to drive this work forward.   Speaker 1 ** 39:46 Well, I think it is important to to find a mutually agreeable time. And maybe that's part of the discussion is I really would rather not talk about this now. Can we set up a time to talk about it and and. So working toward that, I think, is extremely important to be able to do, because we are going to be, by definition, the best educators in terms of disabilities. And you can also get different people with a disability who will say different things. There are still some people who like visually impaired, but that's what the professionals have ingrained at us, and it's a process to get that out of our psyche and recognize that it's low vision and blind and not visually impaired. I would prefer just blind. For anyone who has lost enough eyesight that they have to use alternatives to print to be able to function, I would prefer just to use blind. But the reality is that's probably a larger step than most people are willing to take today. So blind and low vision works for a while, but at some point, we're going to have to recognize there's nothing wrong with being blind or there's nothing wrong with being in a wheelchair, or there's nothing wrong with being deaf or being a person somewhere on the autism spectrum, there's nothing wrong with any of those. It's just that we're going to do things differently than you're used to? Yeah,   Speaker 2 ** 41:22 I think language is so important too, because, like, the you know what the professionals say, what the all the research is saying, but it's a What does that person identify with? But you know what they identify and what is their experience like? And really talking to them, to, you know it's like. And I think a lot of times we we even when we're educated, this is my personal experience. This is how I want to identify with a person with a disability, or I identify as a disabled person, you know, we preface that, and so I always make this joke. I'm like, people like, oh, do I say he's visually impaired? Do I say, you know, he's low vision? Do I say he's blind? It's like, well, his name is Michael, so call him Michael, you know, yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 42:04 and, and you can always ask, yeah, but his name is Michael, and that's really the issue. One of the discussions that I've been involved with of late is sort of related to the whole first person language. It's about descriptions. I notice in your bio you have a description, long, brown, curly hair, wearing a silver necklace and a red blouse. What do you think about the whole concept of providing or needing to provide, descriptions, especially if you're in a meeting with people who don't see   Speaker 2 ** 42:42 Yeah, I think it's important. And I think and asking the person, do you want a description? I think, I think there you go. I think sometimes, by people want to just, it's politically acceptable, but really talking to the person, hey, do you need to pick up description to me, but what will make you most feel most comfortable? He was asking that to anyone. What can I do in this meeting to make you feel most comfortable? What do you require of me to get the best experience out of this? And so just asking the person, and   Speaker 1 ** 43:14 that's really the key, isn't it. There's nothing wrong with asking personally. I don't need descriptions. Now, I've never been able to see with eyes, so it's never been an issue for me. But I do know that there are people who have become blind later in life who may want descriptions and and that's fine. The other side of it is, is it really going to add value say to a meeting? That is, does a description of a person really make you more comfortable? And I don't, you know, I don't know the answer to that for a lot of people. I do know, for me, it just takes time away from the meeting. But that's but that's me, and I understand that the one of the reasons I brought it up was that a couple of weeks ago, I was involved in the meeting, and after the meeting, one of the people wrote to everyone who was there and said, You know, I went online trying to find descriptive words for people with disabilities to provide those same descriptions for people with disabilities, but I can't find them, and most of us said, Why do you need them? Because the reality is, there are a lot of different disabilities. There's no one real answer, and I do agree that we shouldn't hide who we are, but we can take this descriptive symbolism and and beat it to death so often too. Does it really make sense to have descriptors of people with with a disability?   Speaker 2 ** 44:58 Yeah, I think I. Yeah, it's like, what, who is the person you know getting and what does that look like? And so I think understanding that, I feel like there's so many things and so much information coming out about disability right now, how to be most inclusive, that sometimes we forget the nuance of just the human experience, yeah, and   Speaker 1 ** 45:23 yeah, well, and that's what we essentially told the person who asked the question, that it's not and a number of people did. It's not really relevant to do it for disabilities as such. But I think your point is, is also well taken. You can always ask, and if somebody wants a description, then give them a description and and then move on. But it is, it is something that I I've been in meetings, and I've heard way too often you'll have 10 or 12 people in the meeting, and they're asked without finding out whether people want it when you first speak, give a description of yourself. By the time you're done with that, you've wasted another 10 or 12 minutes of the meeting, which is only an hour long anyway. And what have you really gained from that? And and again, I understand that there are some people who might like that, because they used to see but I but I think that we can take it to an extreme, which doesn't help. Yeah, I think   Speaker 2 ** 46:31 really understanding, what are the needs? What are the what's the reason behind the meeting? What are the needs of the meeting? Who's attending the meeting? Do they know? Do they do the people need it? They not need it. And again, providing even, like, for example, closed captions. But like, I think closed captions are so important in the thing like, oh, it's for people only, people that are hard of hearing and but it's like, for example, sometimes it's like, oh, it's better for me to process information if I see it written, instead of just hearing it or hearing it and seeing it. And so it's a cool what is it adding to the meeting instead of, you know, yeah, what's the value   Speaker 1 ** 47:13 and things like closed captioning? I absolutely can understand. And I think that meetings should have closed captions. And I don't care what the meeting is, we should get into that habit. And the other, the other thing I would would say is that, again, descriptions are a different situation, because what does it really add to the meeting and but again, some people may really want it. So it's a it's a question to ask and then go from there. But I would say closed captions. Another one is one of my favorites. Somebody created this terminology, no Braille, no meeting. That is to say, especially when a blind person, for example, is involved. But I would say in general, it would be better to do this, and that is, if you're going to have a meeting, don't bring handouts to the meeting, disseminate them in advance. Because if you have a meeting and you're giving people handouts and you're talking, they've got to split their time between listening to you and reading the handout. And I don't care what handout it is, you could take a few minutes early enough to disseminate handouts so that people can all be prepared. But especially that works for people like me who aren't going to read those handouts, because you're going to create them from a copy or anyway, or you're going to print them in a multiple way, but probably don't have access to a Braille embosser or some way to get them to me. And so the reality is that documentation should be provided in advance, and I think again, it's a habit that we should all get into, then we don't have to worry about it when somebody comes along who really needs to have those, those services.   Speaker 2 ** 49:03 Yeah, I completely agree. I remember, I think I started doing that a couple years ago. It was like, why I even myself? You know, I like to be okay with the agenda. I like to know the agenda, know what we're going to talk about. And so I have Knowing that ahead of time is so important. And you we all have such busy lives, so even if you don't have a like you said, traditional disability is going to help you better prepare for that meeting and feel more at ease going into that meeting and going into this conversation. And it helps everyone at the end of the day.   Speaker 1 ** 49:34 Sure, it does. Were you ever treated poorly or have any real challenges because of the fact that you have a disability?   Speaker 2 ** 49:44 Yeah, I think, like I mentioned the beginning, my, my speech impediment, my, I think people would make fun of my the way I would speak and so, and I just like, I don't talk like that. You can, you know. And. That made me feel very uneasy. And then also, going back to, you know, dealing with depression in high school, people didn't understand, really, what it was to have depression, and so like, Oh, it's just all in your head. Or, like, and then I would kind of do some kind of reckless thing because I didn't like I said I didn't care if I lived or died. And so they were like, oh, and kind of make fun of me and or use it to their advantage to put me in other situations that weren't not the best for me. And so this also led to complex PTSD, and so just understanding that when sometimes people don't fully understand something that more likely to make fun of you, and not because, again, the impact work is intent, right? So sometimes they just kids being silly and not knowing really what they're doing, but sometimes in demolition attack of using someone's disability against them, right?   Speaker 1 ** 51:06 As as you may know, I worked in the World Trade Center and escaped after, well, on September 11, after the buildings were hit, and people, even to this day, say to me, Well, you didn't know what happened, did you? And I said, No, not at the time. Well, of course, you didn't, because you couldn't see it. They revert to that type, even though, in reality, the building where it was struck was 18 floors above us on the other side of the building. And so one of the things that I say to people is, well, the last time I checked Superman and X ray vision are fiction, and the fact of the matter is, on my side of the building, no one knew what happened when we were going down the stairs. Not one single person anywhere around us knew what happened, because they were all on the other side of the building from where the plane was hit, and typically many floors below where the plane was hit. So of course, nobody saw it, but, but they want to revert to type when it comes to dealing with, say, a person who's blind. Well, of course, you couldn't see it, so you wouldn't know. And that is just unfortunate, because, again, I think it contributes or comes from the lack of education. Yeah,   Speaker 2 ** 52:21 I think a lot of the whenever someone says something, sometimes it just like becomes for that misunderstanding, the missing, that the lack of education. That's why education is so important. In disability, you're talking about anything because, and sometimes I feel like people almost like the fear or the unknown fill in those gaps, and it can cause huge problems. Yeah,   Speaker 1 ** 52:48 what is one thing that you wished people knew? Well, it's really two questions, one about disabilities and the other is about accessibility.   Speaker 2 ** 53:00 I think I wish for people knew about disabilities, is that I think the ability that it's a spectrum and that impacts people differently, and can impact impact the individual themselves differently every day again. You know, for example, if I didn't get enough sleep, it could contribute to other environments, factors that make my conditions act up, and for accessibility, I think that, yes, accessibility is an ominous with, you know, people with disabilities and giving resources people with disabilities, but accessibility allows us all to have the resources And the tools we need to be successful, and that it's kind of the bare minimum of what you should be doing. Yeah.   Speaker 1 ** 53:50 And I think for me, if there were one thing I wish people knew about disabilities, is it's okay to ask. It's okay to want to know more. And I always will. If people ask me a question, I will, I will answer. One of the things that I encounter often is I'll be anywhere from an airport to a hotel to a store, and a child wants to come up and pet my guide dog. And the parents will say, Oh, don't go pet that dog. That dog might bite you don't know anything about that dog, as opposed to saying it's a guide dog and the dog is working. Now, some people do say that, but a lot of people don't. For me, my policy is if I hear a child asking, especially when parents respond in the negative way, I will always stop take the harness off. Say no, it does okay. They can visit with the dog, and then it gives me the chance to to say when the harness is on, the dog is working. It's got a job to do, because the dog make sure that I walk safely. But the dog. Dog isn't going to bite you, and I don't want you to be afraid of dogs just because, but you should always ask. It's okay to ask and do that. I think that's that's really important, but oftentimes parents continue to create a fear level that we don't need to have. So if a child wants to interact with my dog, I will always stop. If an adult wants to. If I have time, I will stop, and if I don't, I will not stop. And I'll say, here's why I'm in. I'm in a hurry. I've got to get here. I really don't have time. I wish I did, but I will, whenever I can, I will stop and let people interact. I'll take the harness off because the dog needs to relax too, and the dog knows when the harness comes off, they can visit, and they know that they're supposed to focus. But even so, when somebody pets pets, a dog, even in harness, they're going to look, because the dog really likes the attention. So it's a matter of of dealing with it. But by the same token, the bottom line is that I think, again, it's all about education. So I don't mind letting people pet the dog, but only when the harness is off. When I've had a couple of times that people would ask, and I say, not right this moment. And then they go right ahead and pet the dog. And I know that they pet the dog because the dog is looking and I can feel the leash move. And when that happens, I will give the dog not a hard one, but a leash correction, saying, leave it. And the people will say, Oh, don't yell at the dog. I was the one that was petting the dog and said, No, you don't understand. You got the dog in trouble. The dog knows better. I'll deal with the dog, then I'll deal with you. But, but, you know, it's, it's an educational process, but with kids, I'll always stop. I think it's important that children learn what guide dogs are and that that they are friendly. The only thing I would say is, I hope they're not holding an ice cream cone at the time, because they'll lose the ice cream cone. What would you tell your teenage self if you could go back right now and do that?   Speaker 2 ** 57:01 I would tell my teenage self that be authentically you, because, like I said, I felt like I was a chameleon in high school. And so by being more me, embracing my differences, embracing who I am, embracing all these different things that make up who Cindy is, and really living into that, and also giving myself with a bit more grace and compassion, because I guess I could do some things and things I couldn't do, and now understanding okay, there's some things I can do and Some things I can't do, and that's okay, and that I'm worthy, and that I think, yeah, I think that's it   Speaker 1 ** 57:49 okay. I think that's fair. Well, if people would like to reach out to you, maybe take advantage of your your services and so on, and interact. How do they do that?   Speaker 2 ** 58:01 You You can send me this. I have a form or a website that you can fill out, and my website is and my website is accessible, creates.ca   Speaker 1 ** 58:10 so accessible creates.ca so they can go there, and they can reach out and so on and and take it from there. Yes. And they can write you and ask you all sorts of questions,   Sydney Elaine Butler ** 58:23 if they choose, if they choose.   Speaker 1 ** 58:25 Well, Sydney, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun and educational, and I've learned a lot, and I really appreciate your time. I'm glad we finally were able to make this happen, and I hope all of you out there come away with a little bit of a different view of disabilities and all of us who typically experience that then, then you had before. Love to hear your thoughts. Love to get an idea of what you think. Please feel free to reach out to me. You can reach me at Michael h i@accessibe.com that's m, I C H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or you can go to our podcast page, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael Hinkson is spelled M, I C H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O n.com/podcast, wherever you're listening or watching on YouTube, please give us a five star rating. We value your ratings, and would really appreciate you taking the time to rate and comment. We love your comments. We love getting your feedback, and so would definitely appreciate you doing that. If you know of anyone who ought to be a guest on our show, our podcast and Sydney, including you, if you know anyone who ought to be a guest, please let us know. Reach out, introduce us. We're always looking for people who want to become guests on unstoppable mindset. And so with that again, Sydney, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a. A lot of fun. Any last words that you want to say?   Speaker 2 ** 1:00:03 Yes again. Thank you so much, Michael for having me on your podcast, and I look forward to seeing how I hope. I look forward to keeping in touch and seeing other conversations   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:20 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

As our guest, Abby Havermann will tell you, not only teachers, but all of us should be life-long learners. Abby grew up in Boston and then made an attempt to leave the cold for Southern California and USC. However, after a year she decided that the USC and LA lifestyle wasn't for her and she moved back to the Boston area. She graduated college with a degree in Social Psychology. She also holds a Master's degree which she will talk about with us. Abby held jobs in the therapy and social work arena. She was married along the way, but ended up getting a divorce. She later remarried and worked for 12 years with her husband in the financial world. In 2018 she decided that talking with people about money wasn't for her. She left Finance and began her own business and now she teaches business and other leaders how to “unlearn what no longer serves them”. My conversation with Abby discusses fear, self perception and how to develop the skills to overcome fear and our own inner lack of confidence. Abby uses a variety of techniques including some “ancient methods” to work with her clients. You will hear about Abby's Ted Talk entitled “Women's Liberation is an inside job”. I will leave it to Abby to explain. I very much believe you will find this episode enthralling and relevant to our lives today. About the Guest: On the outside, Abby Havermann was leading what could easily be described as an enviable life - a respected couples therapist, adjunct faculty at the graduate level, married with an adorable child, and a white picket fence to boot. But many of her life choices had unconsciously been made through the lens of unworthiness - choices that weren't aligned for her. The Universe often does for us what we're unable to do for ourselves, and Abby's wake-up call was mortifying. She spent a long, dark night of the soul in an overcrowded jail cell when her relapsing addiction counselor husband had her bogusly arrested for domestic violence the day before she was scheduled to move out. That's when Abby identified the myriad of ways she'd betrayed herself and shifted her focus from what she was doing in the world to who she was being. Through this process, she took back her power and, through the ensuing decades, has delved deeper into the human potential movement, trained with world-renowned thought leaders, and the rest is history. A lifelong learner, Abby's singularity resides in combining her psychology, neuroscience, spiritual, and coaching experience with her ability to transform difficult life experiences into a gratitude-worthy self-evolutionary tool — awareness done right can breed transformation. Now, she teaches mission-driven, insight-oriented people to unlearn what no longer serves them through 1:1 and group coaching, speaking, training, and a soon-to-be-launched online course. Abby's direct signature style challenges clients to up-level while witnessing and holding compassion for the complexity of their multifaceted inner and outer worlds. Ways to connect with Abby: Website: https://www.abbyhavermann.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abby-havermann-93a915165 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abby.havermann Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abbyisworthy About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone. I am your host, Mike Hingson, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today we get to talk with Abby Havermann. Abby is I find a very interesting person. She teaches mission driven, purpose oriented inside executives to unlearn, and we won't go into the unlearning, because Abby's going to talk to us about that. And so I don't want to give anything away. I've read her bio, so I know, but at the same time, what I want to do is to let her do that. So Abby, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Abby Havermann ** 02:01 Thanks so much. I love your podcast, so I'm happy to be here as well. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:05 we love it too, and we appreciate the fact that you do well, why don't we start, as I love to do, by you telling us maybe something about the early Abby, growing up and all that, and I know that we were comparing notes, and you grew up in Boston. Love to hear about that, and Steve's ice cream parlor and all the other wonderful things about Boston. But anyway, and, and I guess one of my favorite places in Boston, Durkin Park, closed during the pandemic.   Abby Havermann ** 02:29 Ah, yeah, I'm not even, I know it's terrible. I'm not familiar with Durkin park   Michael Hingson ** 02:33 because I was in Quincy Market. And   Abby Havermann ** 02:35 Quincy Market, okay, yeah, for sure, the chip yard in Quincy Market is my favorite. Oh, I didn't go   Michael Hingson ** 02:43 there, but I went to Durgan Park several times, and I heard that they they closed. But, oh, sad, sad. But, well, tell us about the early Abbey.   Abby Havermann ** 02:56 Yeah. So, I mean, I grew up in, like you said, outside of Boston, and and I think just from a young age, I kind of came out pretty scrappy, and I had a big personality. I I always seemed to have something to say, and it wasn't always in favor of what people wanted to hear. I felt like I I noticed things. I kind of always wanted to talk about the elephant in the room, and that didn't really go over that well, but I had, you know, a close, you know, extended family, and spent lots of times with my grandparents and my cousins and my parents and siblings. And, you know, I mean, I don't think it was that unusual of a childhood, so to speak, but Boston is bone chilling cold. If you've lived there, you know that. And so I wanted to get out as quickly as I could. And so after high school, I hightailed it out and moved, actually, across the country to spend a year at University of Southern California. Yeah, yeah. But that was such a culture shock, you know, being on the west coast from the East Coast, that I just went right back. I went back to the East Coast. Until later, I moved to Colorado, and yeah, that's where I spent about 30 years. Well, Colorado   Michael Hingson ** 04:19 has its share of cold, I would point out, not   Abby Havermann ** 04:23 bone chilling cold, not bone chilling cold, you're right with a dry air. It's a totally different cold.   Michael Hingson ** 04:30 But the culture shock of being at fight on USC was greater of an issue than the bone chilling cold of being on the East Coast, huh? It was.   Abby Havermann ** 04:39 I mean, I just, you know, on the east coast, people like they're harder to get to know, but they say it like it is. They're very direct, you know. And when I went to California, I felt like it was so hard to get to know people, you just couldn't get very deep, you know. Or at least that's how I felt. Plus, I had been, I didn't realize how sheltered I had been. Um. Um, and it was a very big school, and in the middle of watts, and it was, it was a culture shock for for sure. And I wasn't a PAC 10 athlete, and I wasn't, you know, in sororities, and all the things that you know are, you know, very popular in that particular area. So it just it. And I, I, I, I was so insecure at that time in my life that I think I I could not have broken into either of those, even if I had wanted to. I just in my own way constantly. So I pretty much just came running back and, you know, flew out a white flag of defeat in terms of individuating. And   Michael Hingson ** 05:42 did you go back to Boston? I   Abby Havermann ** 05:44 actually went to Wheaton College, up outside of Boston. All right. Now,   Michael Hingson ** 05:48 what did you major in at USC? And did you follow through on that when you went back to Wheaton?   Abby Havermann ** 05:54 Well, back to my confidence issue when I went to USC, I actually declared a drama major. That's what I really wanted to declare. And I never took a single drama class because I did not have the confidence. And so when I went to Wheaton, I majored in social psychology, which was something that just came very easily to me, and I enjoyed and that's what I did. Ah,   Michael Hingson ** 06:15 so social psychology and you got a bachelor's. Did you go beyond that?   Abby Havermann ** 06:21 Yeah, I ended up getting a master's in social work at Smith College school for social work. And that's when I after that, I worked in several hospitals as an inpatient psychiatric social worker in Denver, and then shortly after that, I opened my own private practice, and I had that for little over a decade, and that's then I closed my practice and ended up going into business with my second husband as a financial advisor, because he had a financial firm, and I worked in his office with him for 12 years. And that's when I realized I want to talk to people, but not about money. And I had to go back to my roots, and so not as a psychotherapist, but that's when I went back to as a teacher of unlearning and coaching and having learned some about, you know, neuroscience and ancient wisdom practices and things like that that greatly informed the psychology teaching.   Michael Hingson ** 07:15 Now, when you say ancient wisdom practices, tell me a little about that, if you would. Yeah.   Abby Havermann ** 07:21 I mean, you know, there's so much out there. And you know, whether it's, you know, the thema and the teachings of Buddha, or whether it's, I do a lot of work with a guerrilla teacher, he's a mystic from the early 1900s and it weaves together. You know, the more I learn about all these different things, the more everything is seems to be coming back to the same thing. And science now is sort of uncovering things that they've known for so long, for 1000s of years, whatever the practice is, yoga, science, Buddhas, Buddhism, all of those kinds of things everywhere I turn it's, it all comes back to this. I mean, it comes back to so much. But this, this innate power that's in us to change, you know, this innate wisdom that we have. And this, the more I you know, think about it and learn about it and study with people about it. It's we have gotten so smart over time, but we've really not gotten any wiser. Yeah, and that's why I like going back and looking at some of those practices.   Michael Hingson ** 08:33 I was watching a news broadcast this morning, and one of the things that they mentioned was that there has been a study that says that at least one in four people wake up every day and have a bad day, and they know they're going to have a bad day because they wake up with a headache or whatever, and they know they can't Change having a bad day, which is bizarre to me. Yeah, I reject that concept. I think, as you are pointing out, that we do have control over that, but we have so many people, as I would put it, that don't listen to their inner voice. And you can say, listen to God or or whatever. But the bottom line is, we don't listen. And, course, we have a bad day because we don't listen to the answers that are right there in front of us.   Abby Havermann ** 09:26 Yeah. And we've been taught not to, right. We've literally been conditioned, you know, from, you know, the industrial age, you know, and all the learnings that we had, you know, with Newtonian physics and all that stuff, to just never, to always look at our outside circumstances. And it's what you're saying is so true, like the innate wisdom is in us, and it's the last place that we ever look, yeah, and, and, and, to your point, it's, it's unbelievable. We we are taught to think it's like, oh. Something happens, we have an emotional reaction to it, and it's like, oh, now I'm just stuck with these emotions. Nothing I can do now. I'm just here with this. And that's the bit, right? Like, that's the dream that people like you and I have to, like, help people understand that. No, no, no, you you have the power to change your brain and body. You don't have to live by that.   Michael Hingson ** 10:18 How do we get people to understand that. I mean, obviously that's part of what you do. So how do you, how do you get people to unlearn that kind of, I won't even say it's a concept, because it's not, it's just a bad message. But how do people unlearn that?   Abby Havermann ** 10:37 Well, yeah, I mean, first we have to understand like that. We came upon it honestly, right, like that, that we're really in fight or flight so much of the time, that the way we've evolved was for survival. And if you're going to evolve for survival, you're going to be looking into your environment to find out, you know, what you need to do to keep yourself safe. So we're our brains are wired to look outside ourselves and say, Oh, this is the problem. I need to fix that. And if I fix that, I can be safe. And so we're very rarely looking inside ourselves. And in fact, when you're under stress, you physiologically can't look inside yourself, because you're in a state of where you're like, run by your hide. Where do I need to go? You know? How do I need to keep myself safe? You're not looking in yourself and be like, Oh, let me ponder. You know how to evolve myself today, right? So part of it is teaching people, literally, how to physiologically shift, to open up the centers of the brain that are more aligned with curiosity and community and and the empathy circuitry and all of the things where that wisdom we can really plug into the wisdom, the wisdom that's in your heart, right helping people understand that we store emotions in our bodies, and those thoughts and emotions that we're firing are creating our actions unconsciously. And it's not hard to get someone to understand it. As soon as you start talking to them, right, because you can give so many examples, they're like, oh, my god, yeah, you're right. When this happened, then I automatically and unconsciously, you know, had this thought and feeling, and then I acted this way, and before I knew it, you know, the whatever, there was an argument with my co worker, or the team meeting blew up, or, you know, whatever happened. And as soon, as soon as they begin to get curious about how their own behavior, their own thoughts and emotions, can impact the people around them, that's empowering, right? That's when you realize you really do have power. It's not I'm going to empower you to be able to have a voice. No, it's, it's being empowered inside of yourself to recognize the power that's already inherently there.   Michael Hingson ** 12:50 I love something you said, though, which is that this is what we're taught, and I think that that's exactly right. I don't think we're born that way, necessarily, but that is what we're taught. Yeah,   Abby Havermann ** 13:03 no, we are, and not only that, we're encouraged to, right? I mean, like, I read somewhere, I don't know if it was maybe in the book letting go. I can't remember, but how Freud's was really misunderstood when he talked about expression versus repression, that the idea was not, wasn't intended to be that if you just say your emotions out loud, you will release them. And this is what we've kind of been taught from ancient, you know, like back in the psychology, and even in psychology in school for you know, that degree, it's sort of like all we need to do is just express what's going on. So now we're complaining to each other where, you know, and everybody's going, Oh, you're right. You have a right to feel this way. Yes, this is terrible. This is terrible. And yes, we do have a right to feel this way. I mean, you know, right better than anybody. I have a one of the reasons I was so attracted to your podcast is that I have a child who has a disability. And, you know, there's lots and lots of reasons to feel bummed out or upset or limited, right? That's not the question. The question is, do you really want to   Michael Hingson ** 14:11 That's right? The reality is, you may have the right to do it, because you have the right to make choices, but on the other hand, is that really the best choice? And the answer is not really Yeah,   Abby Havermann ** 14:25 and not because you're a better person if you don't, not because you get kudos, you know, but because your life is better, because you determine how you know whether you're happy or sad or resentful, you know, or holding a grudge, you know?   Michael Hingson ** 14:41 Yeah, I agree. And I see it so often. I remember so many times I'm asked what you were in the World Trade Center and you escaped. Did you go through a lot of therapy? Because you seem like you're pretty normal now, whatever that means. And I point out, no. No, I didn't go through counseling directly, but what I did, and it was a little bit unconscious, at least, I didn't think about this as a reason for doing it, but my wife and I agreed that talking about the World Trade Center attacks and allowing people to hire me to come and do speeches and talk about the lessons we should learn, made me pretty visible, and a lot of reporters wanted to do interviews. And the reality is that my therapy ended up being the media coming into our home literally hundreds of interviews, asking every question from the most inane to the most insightful you can imagine, but that made me talk about it, and that's I think the biggest key is being able to talk about it, and recognizing, as you do that you're thinking about it, and that causes your brain to help you be able to put it all in perspective, whatever that may be and whatever it is,   Abby Havermann ** 16:07 yeah, and I think you know what you're talking about is so important, because I think we get mixed up so easily between what is the difference between acknowledging what happened to you and dwelling in what happened to you. And it is so important to be able to talk about it and acknowledge like the feelings that you have, and not deny those. If we just think, well, I should be, I should, in quotes, be able to, you know, be in a great, great mood, even though I feel like crap or whatever, and you just keep trying that it's not going to work you. You have to acknowledge what is. You have to be truthful about what is but understanding that you have the power to overcome and all of that resides inside of you, and it may take, depending on whatever happened, maybe you're over it in 30 seconds. 911 going to take a lot longer, right? Like you have the patience to to to walk through that with yourself, but understanding that it's not what happens to us in our lives that's important. It's it's how we react to it, right, what we think of it. And look at what you've made of that, right? Like, what a phenomenal story, what a horrific, you know, accident and not an accident, horrific event. And look at how many people you've touched as a result, and how many people you've taught and how many lives you've changed well.   Michael Hingson ** 17:26 And one of the things I realized at the beginning of the pandemic, and we've talked about it some here on the podcast, is that while I wasn't I won't say I wasn't afraid. On September 11, I had learned to control fear because I prepared for the eventuality that there could be an emergency. And there had been a bombing in the World Trade Center in 1993 in the parking lot. It didn't do a lot of damage, but nevertheless, it caused a lot of people who bought at the World Trade Center. So I came along at a time when I was hired to open an office, and in opening the office, we got a great rent, got a great price for it, and we moved in, and I immediately started spending a good amount of time learning all I could about the complex including what all the emergency and evacuation procedures were, emergency preparedness, what to do, Where the emergency exits were, and how to get anywhere, I needed to go, not just one way, but every possible way to get around. And that was something that, as I mentioned before, about physics and paying attention to details, that's the whole point of it. But what all that did was actually, although I never thought about it for many years afterward. But what that really did was created in me a mindset that you know what to do. Well, an emergency happened, and I was able to let that mindset take over, and as I describe it to people, allowed my fear to be a guide and a device that helped me stay motivated and focused, rather than the fear overwhelming, or, as I put it, blinding me to what was going on, so I couldn't make a decision. And I believe that we do have that capability. We don't need to allow fear to overwhelm us and to make life impossible on it. Yeah, I understand there's a natural reaction, and people have physical reactions when they're afraid and so on. But the reality is, from a mind standpoint, you do have the ability to control that, and so you do have the ability to take that fear and make it a positive thing and not a negative thing that overwhelms you, because you suddenly totally just feel helpless.   Abby Havermann ** 19:46 Yeah, I mean, there's so much to unpack in what you just said. I mean, you know, I guess one of, one of the things is that, you know, when I think about it's like, obviously, that's such a feel for situation. But I often think about the degree to which people are in. Fear just on a daily basis. You know, when you talk to business owners and you know the fear that realistic or not, you know that financial ruins going to happen, the fear of, you know, what am I going to look like when I get up on stage and give this presentation, the fear that you know you're not going to be able to, you know, make the quota, the fear that your boss is going to be upset. You know, all of these things are, you know, the fear of what's going to happen with your children. You know, all of this futuristic thinking, like, literally, if you think about it, I feel like we are in fear so much of the time, and it's just an unconscious process at this point. And to your point about it's not just your mind, right? Like, because the mind can't really get us out of fear. The mind just sort of chatters to itself, and the fear is stored in your body. And so really, having an understanding of how the mind and the body work together is so important to be able to overcome those emotions, because emotions are stored in your body. We can talk to I mean, how many times have you talked to people that are talking themselves, trying to talk themselves out of feeling a certain way? You cannot talk yourself out of feeling something? It won't work, and then you'll just end up feeling, you know, deflated because you couldn't do it. It's really a combination of understanding with your mind what you what needs to happen with your body as well. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 21:32 what you have to do is to learn how to step back and say, what is that is really a problem for me right now, what do I what am I really afraid of? And should I be afraid of it? One of the things that I have talked about a fair amount regarding September 11 is that I realized that there are a lot of things over which we don't have control, and if we, as we usually tend to do, what if the world to death and worry about everything in the world that goes on, rather than focusing on the things over which we really do have control, we're going to have more and more fear. We're going to just drive ourselves crazy, and we're going to continue to do what we've always done. But the reality is, and I think a lot does have to do with the mind, but it is also communicating with the body. It's a mind body process. But the ultimate issue is that we have to decide and learn how to take that control and focus just on the things that we really have influence over and not worry about the rest of it. So one of the things that I did when the pandemic started was to begin writing a book called, as it turns out, live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith. And the idea behind the book is to teach people how to control fear. And I use examples of lessons that I have learned from working with eight guide dogs and my wife service dog, the lessons that I learned from them that when we apply them, will help us really deal with fear in the right way. So it's all about learning to control that fear. And you know, as an example, what if, as I said, we What if everything to death, and most of the time we don't have any control over it, and it isn't going to happen anyway, but we spend so much time worrying about it that we don't focus on the what ifs or the the issues that are directly really relevant to us.   Abby Havermann ** 23:40 Yeah, yeah. And that that, what if question that analytic brain is really what separates us from from dogs and animals, right? We have the ability to get stuck in this analysis paralysis, and we've been sort of taught like hanging out in that left brain is really it's the more important place to be. And if we just keep going around and around and chewing on something, we'll get an answer to your point all the way back to the beginning of what you said without looking inside ourselves at all, which doesn't require really any thought. It's more sensory oriented. You know what needs to be done here? And it's really I find, you know what I've learned throughout the years, and what I teach is that, and practice is that it's when you settled your nervous system down, you know, when you stop, you know, feeding into a dysregulated nervous system that those options are available to you, and you're able to kind of stop the fear and just observe, rather than analyze, what's going on   Michael Hingson ** 24:46 well, and we really can do that. One of the things that I talk about live like a guide dog, which was published in August of 2024 is that if we would take time. Time at the end of every day to step back as we're falling asleep, even when it's quiet, and look at what happened today, what worked, what didn't work, and and I reject the the concept that anything is a failure. It's a learning experience. And good things that happen to us are learning experiences. How could I have done that better than I did. What else could I have done, but in the case of things that are a problem that we tend to dwell on, why is it a problem? What was I afraid of? How do I deal with that, and really taking the time to start to deal with answering those kinds of questions and doing it regularly, and practicing it is what is going to start to allow us to be able to use our minds to communicate with the rest of us and move forward a much more positive way, and maybe tomorrow, not wake up with a bad day,   Abby Havermann ** 25:54 right? And and, like you say, being able to do that from an objective standpoint, I so much of what I see is that people just beat the hell out of themselves. Yup, so that simple exercise of, you know, what do I love, about what, what I did and what, what would I do differently, becomes, you know, a session of self flagellation, of like, I'm so terrible and I did this and that that wrong, and blah, blah, blah, blah, or the opposite, where it's like, I didn't do anything wrong, and we completely, you know, dissociate from the parts of ourselves that are showing up that aren't useful in a situation. And when you can teach people to sort of have more of that objective focus, because they have, you know, they've built a part inside themselves that can be loving and empathic toward themselves and others that they can stop and say, All right, well, let's see what, what do I love about what I did, and what do I need to do differently next time to make it go differently, it's not, it's not a it's not about your horrible person or your great person. It's nothing to do with that right.   Michael Hingson ** 26:57 And the issue is, when you talk about, what did I do wrong? You didn't think it was wrong until it didn't go the way you wanted. And so it doesn't mean that that you intentionally made a mistake or anything like that. So you got to be able to step back and say, so what really happened here? What do I learn from it? I've learned that one of the most important things I can say is not that I'm my own worst critic, but rather I'm my own best teacher, which is much more positive anyway. But you know, the fact of the matter is that we worry about so many things so much, the Mark Twain and other people who have made comments about fear point out that most everything we're afraid of or fear will never come to pass, and we just spend way too much time worrying about it, and it drives us crazy. Well,   Abby Havermann ** 27:52 yeah, and you know what you were just saying? You know, I mean, one of the things that I bring to teams and organizations, one of the modalities that I use is Positive Intelligence, which was created by Sherzad, you know, he talks about the the sage perspective, which is, everything can be turned into a gift and opportunity, right? And when you're looking at it from that standpoint, if everything can be turned into a gift and opportunity, there is no failure. There is nothing to beat yourself up about. It's just a curiosity of like, okay, what's the gift here? And it's very hard, I think, when people are under intense stress in business and, you know, dysregulated and dealing with all kinds of things, to be able to stop and think there might be a gift in losing this client, or there might be a gift in having to do these layoffs, but there always is. There always is,   Michael Hingson ** 28:53 well, and the the other part about it is, when you talk about stress, how much of the stress, if you will, that we feel is induced by us, yeah, because we don't learn to step back and and look at it in a little bit more of an objective way.   Abby Havermann ** 29:12 Well, it's reinforced by us, right? Like we we are firing the same thoughts and we're firing the same emotions, and we're doing that over and over and over and over again, and we're dumping more and more cortisol in our bodies, right?   Michael Hingson ** 29:24 And we're not learning a thing, or we're not learning a thing, it's there to learn, but we're not learning it. Yeah,   Abby Havermann ** 29:32 exactly, yeah. And people are becoming more and more divided, you know? But the great news is that, you know, it doesn't have to be that way, right? It doesn't have to be that way. And that's, you know, why I think you know the message that that you put out there is, is so very, very important.   Michael Hingson ** 29:54 Well, I think it is, and I think that we can learn. And that we can progress in a in a much more positive way, and we may discover along the way that we end up doing some of the same things that we did, but for different reasons, and maybe they really weren't such bad things anyway.   Abby Havermann ** 30:18 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have, you know, I have clients who have had to, you know, lay off people, you know, and when you're a business owner, you're leaning off people. It feels like the worst thing in the world. You feel like, I know I've done it, yeah, right. I mean, people go into they feel like they failed, they feel guilty, they feel worried about the rest of their employees. And when you start to really unpack it, you know the truth of the matter becomes something else. First of all, if you you know are having to go through a layoff or something, you're typically anything that you do, that you're doing right now, next year, you're going to be doing at a bigger you're going to be playing on a bigger stage. So if you're laying off in your businesses this size next year, you're going to avoid whatever the problem was that caused you to have to do that when you're playing with a bigger stage, when there's more money on the line, right? Yeah, you know that there's when you can approach the world and understanding that your failures are your lessons, and sometimes God does for us what we can't do for ourselves. You know, it makes life a lot easier to get through. You know, we don't end up holding on to the same things, and we learn, like you're saying, faster, instead of continuing to do the same thing over and over again and making the same mistakes over and over again,   Michael Hingson ** 31:39 life gives us the opportunity to really live an adventure and grow if we choose to do it. Unfortunately, all too often, people just won't do it.   Abby Havermann ** 31:51 Yeah, well, I mean, I always say, like not everybody, not every soul is here to evolve. Not every soul is here to do the same thing. And we need, we need everybody here, right? But there's a there's a collective conscious, right? And some people are here to evolve to a certain place. Some people are here to go beyond. Some people are here to just do it all over again,   Michael Hingson ** 32:15 well, but those people who do it all over again hopefully eventually get to the point where they can evolve. And that's part of the issue, of course, is, when are you going to decide to do that? Well,   Abby Havermann ** 32:26 it's never, it's never ending, right? It's like, there is no evolved. It's we're evolving, right? Like, I hope. I like to think that I'm overcoming things in this lifetime that I won't have to come back and do it another but I'm sure they're saying that I'm not, you know, like, so it's a, it's a never ending process, but I think we are. We're taught, you know, that we're not well. We're not taught that. We're not taught that, you know, life is a playground. You know,   Michael Hingson ** 32:56 no, we're not. We're constantly taught that life is hard and so many other things. Rather than Life is an adventure, we can have fun. We ought to have fun. And yeah, there are times to be serious, but still, you can do that in a positive way.   Abby Havermann ** 33:13 Yeah, exactly.   Michael Hingson ** 33:16 I don't know. Maybe Mark Twain was right. I wonder if God had read a man because he was disappointed in the monkeys, but we won't go there. Well,   Abby Havermann ** 33:22 I feel like that now, like, you know, somebody's looking down on us and going, Oh, you guys haven't learned anything yet. Let me throw, let me throw some more things for you to get really upset and divided about and see if you see if you can learn now, and keep kind of proving over and over again that we're not going to learn. We need to keep, we need to keep experiencing all of these things   Michael Hingson ** 33:44 well. But he's probably pleased when somebody does learn. And so that's good too, right? Right?   Abby Havermann ** 33:50 Because it's a collective right? So the more people that begin to start to look inward instead of outward, and begin to see that, you know, they have that power inside themselves. I always say, like, I always wonder, what would it be like, you know, if, if, instead of, you know, focusing on these external things, we were all always focused internally. So something upsets me, and instead of saying, You upset me, or this thing upset me, I immediately go inward and say, Isn't this curious that this, this upset me so much. I wonder what that's about. And if I'm taking care of all of that inside of me, and you're taking care of all of it that's going on inside of you, there's really nothing to argue about. Yeah, and you have more control over your life because you don't have control over what other people do. You can ask them to do things differently. You can say you're upset about it. You can try and manipulate your life so you don't have to deal with things. But at the end of the day, you ultimately don't have control over it. It might work 50% of the time, maybe, if you're lucky, the only thing you have complete control over is how you react to something, right? And   Michael Hingson ** 34:59 that's going to tell. Next steps, and that's what we need to learn to do, is to do a better job of truly reacting, whatever that may mean in any given situation, rather than doing knee jerk reactions to something, and not necessarily doing a very positive or helpful thing. But the reality is, we can learn to listen to that voice inside of us that is there to tell us how to react if we choose to use it and listen to it.   Abby Havermann ** 35:27 And I would say, not even react, but respond. Right? The word responsibility, it's the ability to respond. You know, reacting is what I'm doing when I'm my nervous system is already dysregulated. Right? Responding, you know, is something we can train ourselves to be able to do, to stop, and it doesn't, you know, it doesn't happen overnight. And there's different things that that happen that are going to trigger you more than other things,   Michael Hingson ** 35:55 right? So, when did you start teaching and doing what you're doing now.   Abby Havermann ** 36:03 Well, I after I left my the financial advising, and during that time, I begin to really learn a lot about neuroscience and study under some mentors. And that's when I really realized, like, Oh, this is, this was sort of the missing link for me as a psychotherapist, this is, like it reaffirmed some things that I kind of intuitively knew. And so I began to start doing it in one on one, coaching and teaching in that sense. And then eventually, you know, doing groups and working with teams and things like that since then, so and just kind of bringing all of the modalities that I use together to help people get unstuck, help teams get unstuck, so that, you know, it's possible to to work in ease and flow. And we've all had those times, I hope, where you have a day where you know, you're just running around with your hairs on fire, and you're going from one thing to the next, the next, versus also, you have a day where it's like, gosh, everything just went smoothly. And I didn't worry about time, and I got ended up getting more done than I ever thought I could. You know, like we have control over what kind of day we're going to have. And so it becomes so important, because when we can go into our work or office or our meetings with our clients, instead of being hijacked by all these thoughts of like, Oh, am I prepared? What are they going to think? Oh, my God, that all of these things, instead of going in from, you know, in a place where you're grounded, and what I call inside out instead of outside in, like, worrying about, what do they need? Instead of what am I here to be of service with? It makes everything flow. And I think we need more people in flow and less people in stress and anxiety. So that's kind of when I, when I really started, started to do it. Because I can tell you, in the financial services industry, there's a lot of people in stress   Michael Hingson ** 38:10 and anxiety. Yeah, well, having sold on Wall Street for for many years, and watching traders and, oh yeah, all the things that go on. Yeah, I hear exactly what you're saying. What did your husband think when you decided to leave the financial industry and go back into more of what you're doing now?   Abby Havermann ** 38:28 Well, I don't think he was thrilled, because it left him with, you know, a lot of extra work. But you know, we had actually transitioned at one point. I mean, we were, I was thinking, God, what do I need to do? Like, something's missing. I thought maybe I needed a hobby. So I started to, you know, I joined a choir, and I started writing, and I started doing all these things, and that's what I kind of realized. It's, it's not that I need a hobby, it's that I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And we had, even, you know, started working with women, and I had been running women's seminars, which were really fun, and he had sort of done more of, like, more of the back end stuff, and I was able to talk to women and all of those things. But even that wasn't enough. And so on the one hand, he wasn't thrilled, and on another, he totally understood that I'm here to do something different, you know, and I you, I really believe that you have to do what makes your heart sing in this in this lifetime, you know? So it was a transition. But he, he's my husband's a rock. I'm very lucky. He's, he's, he's always right there, backing me up. So I was lucky,   Michael Hingson ** 39:37 and he's coping with it well these days, I assume   Abby Havermann ** 39:40 he is, oh yeah, now, yeah. And what we built together, you know, he's able to have the business and the life that that he loves as well. I mean, he's, he was doing it long before me, and, you know, we'll do it long after. So how   Michael Hingson ** 39:56 long ago was it that you left the financial. Environment and started what you're doing   Abby Havermann ** 40:02 now, that was in 2018 Okay, so I started in psychotherapy in 97 and then I started in the financial industry in 2007 ish, and then left in 2018   Michael Hingson ** 40:17 well, but I bet, if you really think about it. And probably you have, you could point out things that you learned during your time in the financial world that that help you today.   Abby Havermann ** 40:27 Oh, of course. I mean, yeah, I mean, right, the whole there was no mistake, right? And I that was, there was lots of gifts that came out of that for me, right? Not, you know, not to mention that I really understand the pressures, the unique pressures of that industry and what people are dealing with, and that informs the work that I do now. But also, even just the self discovery of like, wow, you know it? I didn't need a hobby. I wasn't listening to myself. I was out of alignment? Yeah, no, and that's okay too, because you know what? Doing something for the family, doing something for the people that that I worked with, and being of service in that way was also a gift, you know? So, no regrets for sure,   Michael Hingson ** 41:18 no. And I think that's really the issue you're you're comfortable with what you're doing, and so you shouldn't have to have regrets. And again, you learned a lot, and you recognize that, and that's the most important thing.   Abby Havermann ** 41:33 Yeah, I think having a perspective in life, that everything is truly happening as it should is is important, and if nothing else, really helps you get through a lot easier, right? Because lots of people find themselves in situations, you know, whether it's a divorce, you know, which I had that too, or, you know, things happen that people will beat themselves up about and just feel terrible. How can I do that? And why did this happen? And all of these things, and it's it, it you don't have to have an answer to that. It just did happen. Yeah, right, so, and, and what, what is the opportunity for you in moving through that? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:14 well, I've never experienced divorce directly. My brother went through one, and I'm not under the circumstances, we weren't too surprised. But, you know, he was where he was and all that. But my wife and I were married for 40 years, and as I mentioned, she passed away. And so now, as I tell people, I have to be a good kid, because I know that somewhere she's monitoring, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. It's as simple   Abby Havermann ** 42:42 as that. And do you? Do you? Do you hear from her? Um,   Michael Hingson ** 42:46 oh, I hear from her, but I haven't heard anything negative, so I guess I'm behaving.   42:51 Oh, that's good. That's good. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:54 yeah. I mean, she's she's here, she's monitoring, and, yeah, that's perfectly fine.   Abby Havermann ** 43:00 I always love to hear stories of that, you know, particularly for people who've been married a long time, like, what ways the their person shows up, you know, how you know they're here? Because so many people, you know, when I grew up, my grandmother used to say Dead is dead, and it was absolutely terrifying to believe like that was the end, you know. And so I love hearing people talk about, you know, where, where they, where they feel they, where they, where they feel their loved ones, you know, how they know that they're there? About   Michael Hingson ** 43:33 six months after she passed, I remember waking up in the middle of the night because someone or something had taken a hold of my hand as an example. And it wasn't the cat, and as soon as I woke up, then it was gone. But I know it was there, so, yeah, she's she's monitoring. It's okay. Yeah, I'm good with that. Now, along the way, you delivered a TED talk. How long ago was that?   Abby Havermann ** 43:58 Oh, that was in 2022,   Michael Hingson ** 44:01 okay, so, so the pandemic had started to lift and all that. What if you would tell me about the the TED talk, and what that was all about, and and so on.   Abby Havermann ** 44:10 Yeah, well, the TED talk really came about. It's something I think I've wanted to do for a long time, but it came about actually as a result of my divorce and what I went through during that time, and that was really when I had this kind of come to Jesus, that I realized that the things that had happened in my life that I was not in favor of were directly related to a self betrayal. In other words, it wasn't anyone else's fault that these things happened to me or that I went through them. It was that I consistently, as we said in the beginning, did not go inside, did not listen to my inner voice, betrayed myself in any number of ways by, you know, deferring to what other people thought or making. Decisions, because I didn't think I was worthy of something else, or whatever it was. And it was like, wow, it hit me in the face. It was sort of like there was nowhere else for me to go but jail. Like, literally, I was already in prison because I was not listening to myself at all. And so I had that experience, and then years later, I actually was at a an assembly for my son, who was like, 10 years later, was then in middle school, and they were doing an assembly on sexting for middle school kids, because there was this pandemic and epidemic of kids sexting. And at the time in Colorado, that was a class three felony, and there was really nothing they could do to get it off somebody's record. So they were doing an Internet safety and I was listening to the cop up there talking about what was happening, and he said something that, you know, just really shook me, which was that, you know the he would ask the boys, why do you why do you make them send Why do you pressure these girls into sending pictures? And the boys would say, well, because I wanted to see a picture of her naked. And then they would ask the girls, why? Why are you sending it? And the girls would always say, and I knew exactly what he was going to say. They they said, because I wanted him to love me. And it really brought me back to all the self betrayals I had had as a young a young woman. And, and I thought, my God, nothing has changed. I mean, that was in 2003 right? I was born in 1970 so I just thought, wow, we are still doing the same thing over and over again. And, and it really spurred me to want to tell that story and spread this word, that we have the ability to get out of our own ways, that we can. We don't need, we don't need new legislation, and not that, I'm not that it's not great, and not that we shouldn't have it, but we don't need other people to empower us. We need to empower ourselves. And so that was kind of what my what my TED talk was about.   Michael Hingson ** 47:09 Um, so the title of your talk was, women's liberation is an inside job. Interesting title,   Abby Havermann ** 47:14 yeah, well, and that's literally the truth, right? Like, let you know if you think of like, the biggest extremes of this, of course, are people like Viktor Frankl, you know, who you know talks about how he was in the concentration camps. And you know Man's Search for Meaning, you know how he was liberated, even in the most you know, horrific circumstances. And I really believe that liberation is an inside job for all of us. That is not just for women, but for everyone. It's to me doing a TED talk was great. It was a bucket list thing. I'm so happy I did it. But what makes me feel the most proud of myself is when I overcome some part of myself. That is what makes me feel liberated when something goes wrong in my inner in my external world and my inner world doesn't go crazy, I'm like, oh my god, that is freedom. When something happens in my external world and I lose it or I go into a funk, that's prison. To me. Liberation is being able to be in ease and flow, no matter what is happening in our outer world, and no matter who is irritating us, or what life circumstances plopped in my lap. Yeah, that's kind of how I mean that, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 48:36 well, and I gather that the that the talk went well and was well received, I assume,   Abby Havermann ** 48:44 yeah, I mean, I think that it, they forced some edits on it, which I understand in hindsight. I wish I had known, but I would could have told the story differently. But no, it was. It was very well received. And I often hear from people who tell me that they that they shared it widely, and it was impactful. So, but you know, if you, if you unpack just one, one other person, you know, like, it's worth it. Yeah, worth it. So it didn't go viral. You know, it didn't, it wasn't as big as, you know, many TED talks are, but that's okay, you know, people came up to me after and said, You know, I'm the person you needed to talk to. And I was like, All right, now my job's done. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 49:27 you You did. You did well, or, as I like to say, you done good. And, yeah, and that's what's important. You talk about the dark night of the soul. What is that? Well, the   Abby Havermann ** 49:39 dark night of the soul is, you know, that come to Jesus moment. And I always say, you know, when I write in my newsletters, I often write about, you know, come to Jesus moments and dark nights of soul. And I always say, you know, if you haven't had one of these, and then you're probably not for me, because, you know, or I'm probably not for you. Is really how that is, because it's the dark night of the soul. Is. Is when you really come face to face with yourself, and you can no longer, you know, blame other people. You can no longer not change. You realize that something's happening and it's requiring you to be a different person, and you see something in yourself that maybe you don't like, you know, or you see something that you realize you can't have. It's not going to work. It's not going to be the way you keep trying to make it be. And you have to come up against yourself and make some really hard decisions and some hard choices and see things in yourself that maybe you don't want to see, you don't want to know about. You'd rather think about yourself in a different way. Yeah, the dark night. Have you had one? I'm   Michael Hingson ** 50:44 not thinking of one right off, but I am sure I have,   Abby Havermann ** 50:47 yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 50:51 I think that we all have, yeah. Actually, I can. Can think of some where I was behaving in particular ways. And sometimes it's I learn about it because somebody comes along and said, You're a dirt bag, or you misbehaved, or the way you're treating people, and I've had to think about that. But I think for me, although I didn't notice it until somebody mentioned it, when it occurs and somebody says something, my immediate reaction is to think about that and to internalize it, and to go back and look at, well, what, what is the issue? And sometimes I have realized that it wasn't me and somebody's being manipulative, but sometimes it is me, and it is important to be able to get introspective and think about what is occurring and and look at what's going on and what part of it is you, and what part of it is not you,   Abby Havermann ** 51:49 yeah. And I think it's, you know? I mean, it's so impossible to really, truly know ourselves and have a really accurate picture of ourselves. We all have a picture of ourselves, but it's, it's never really accurate, because of the way our brains are wired and so continuing to be open and curious like that, I think is is so important. And we, you know, you come to your own truth, right? But I think truth is so important to be truthful to yourself, whether it's whether you're throwing yourself under the bus that's not truthful. You know, whether you're saying, Oh, I suck at this, or whatever I made, you know what? That's not truthful, or whether you're tooting your own horn, and that's not entirely truthful. No, you know. It's a you know, to me, like self introspection, like that's that is where it's at. That, to me, is the most fascinating and the quickest road to success and growth you can possibly have. It's not, it's not what's happening externally. It's, it's, how are you actualizing yourself within? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 52:58 and that's why it gets back to really learning how to step back and look at situations and looking at all aspects of it to make a final decision about, what do I need to do, if anything, to address the issue, whatever it may be,   Abby Havermann ** 53:15 yeah, and I think, you know, there's value in that. Of course there is, but a lot of times that's a that's an analysis, and a lot of times we need to step away from the analysis, and we need to just with it and observe it and just be curious about it. Oh, exactly, and be okay with what is. And that's sometimes when the biggest answers come to us. I think that's why, you know they say that the right brain processes 800 times faster than the left brain, because the left brain is worried. What do I need to do differently? How do I need to analysis, analysis, analysis. Whereas when you can settle your brain and body down, whether it's through a meditation or a heart math practice or a Positive Intelligence practice or what, whatever it is, sometimes the answer is right there it like drops in, you know, just the way you had, you felt your wife hold your hand, right, you know. And it just happened so much faster than all of the thinking and the planning and the spreadsheets and the that you that we put ourselves through trying to come up with the quote right answer,   Michael Hingson ** 54:21 yeah. And I don't want to make it really clear, I'm not necessarily advocating just analysis, and I'm not analysis, though, what I think analysis can do is lead to you opening up and dealing with the rest of the issues. So analysis may be a starting point, but it's not the end all solution,   Abby Havermann ** 54:43 yeah, and it, and we need to be careful about getting stuck in it, yeah? Oh, absolutely stuck in that place of over, you know, going over and over that,   Michael Hingson ** 54:53 because that takes us right back to where we were before. Well, right? Because   Abby Havermann ** 54:56 Einstein said, you know, you can't solve a problem from the same level. Level of mind that created it, right?   Michael Hingson ** 55:03 Yeah. And so you can go back and look at, well, what what happened? What is it the people are saying and all that, but you've got to go further than that. And so it, it is emotional as well as anything else, which is probably why we haven't met Vulcans like Mr. Spock yet.   Abby Havermann ** 55:23 Well, yeah, I mean, and that's the thing, right? It's like people are emotional beings, right? So we think that we need to work things out logically and everything, but emotions are not logical, and so much of life and business is about relationships, right?   Michael Hingson ** 55:38 But the but the one thing that we can do, though, is that it gets back to introspection in all forms. We do need to learn how to step back and allow ourselves to listen to that inner voice to come up with the best solution, because that's where the best solution will always be.   Abby Havermann ** 55:59 Yeah, yeah. So true. And so many people doubt it. So many people doubt that it's inside them. You know, they'll come and be like, What do you think? What do you think? And I always say it's, I could tell you what I think, but you'll end up working with me far longer than you need to, because it's not what you think. So let's, let's do some let's dive in and find out what your inner wisdom is telling you, because that's the only way you're going to rest, that's the only way you're going to know for certain, right, the right thing to do, because you feel it in your bones.   Michael Hingson ** 56:30 How do people who think less of themselves or don't have a lot of self worth? How can you help them move forward to becoming more confident, and I mean that in a positive way, as opposed to just developing an ego, and I'm great, and that's all there is to it. But how do you get people, or how do you help move people from a lack of self worth to self confidence? Yeah,   Abby Havermann ** 56:52 I mean, I think that self worth is, like one of the biggest, if not the biggest, problem that we have. And I do think there are a handful of people, I think you might be one of them that just has an inner constitution that, you know, is just a really lucky one. My son is one of them too. You know, he has this disability, and I swear to God, I've never seen a kid, you know, just kind of bounce back, you know, like he's here to be humbled. You know, it's not, it's not, you know, his constitution is just built that way. But I think for the vast majority of people, we're dealing with imposter syndrome. We're dealing with self worth issues. And oftentimes people say, Well, I don't have a worthiness issue because they're they have a great life, they have a great family, they have a great business. They and they can't they like themselves. They can't really relate to feeling a worthiness issue. But when you dial down and really talk to them about, you know, what are their fears, or what's getting in their way, or what's happening, it all comes back to this question of, you know, am I enough and trying to prove themselves and whatnot. And so one of my taglines is, I say, you know, stop, it's time to stop proving your worth and start owning your worth. Because your worth is there. It's always there. Your your validity is always there. The only thing that happened is you turned your gaze away from it. You started looking for it outside of yourself and instead of inside of yourself, and so it's, it's a harder question to answer, because it's, it's an evolution. It's not, you know, well, I just need to say, you know, 10 affirmations every day, and then I'm going to wake up more confident the next day, right? It has to do with acknowledging and being able to catch those if I was going to use Positive Intelligence language, those saboteurs that you know, for example, the hyper achiever Salvatore that wants to tell you that you're worth you're only as worthy as your last achievement. You know it's being able to catch that and being able to say, Wait a minute. Let me once again, sit you down and go back into who I am at the core of me, what is my essence and and aligning with the truth of who we are, which is we are not our body, we are not our mind, we we're much, much more than that. So there's a lot of different practices that we go, that I go through with people, but I do think that part of it is acknowledging that we're all somewhere along the same journey. And so much of the time it's just almost all the time, it's like one ego is talking to another ego. I'm I'm telling you, whatever I'm telling you. From my ego, you're telling me what you're telling me from your ego, very rarely are people actually, truly talking from their hearts. Part of developing confidence, I think, is an ability to align with your authentic self, where you're not putting yourself. Below anybody else. You're not putting yourself above anybody else. You're just aligning with what is real for you and putting yourself out there in that way and getting comfortable with that. And we can make decisions from that place. We feel more confident about our decisions. We never regret a decision that happened truly intuitively, right,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:21 right? Well, you've, you've worked with a lot of clients, and I've had some successes. I'd love to hear maybe a success story where you really made a difference, or you helped someone make their own difference.   Abby Havermann ** 1:00:39 Yeah. I mean, I think that, let's see, you know, I mean, there's, there's a lot of different ways I could, I could go with that. You know, sometimes what happens when people can have a shift is everything changes. So I had a client who was going she almost didn't come to our call because she was just covered in shame about something that was happening in her business. And we were able to work on it, not only in that introductory call, but throughout the ensuing year where everything changed for her business. So when I used to ask her, you know, listen, what, what do you what do you want? What is it? Well, I want to be the best. Well, what does that mean? I want to be the best, right? I want to be the best. You know. Again, that goes back to this dysregulated nervous system, that's right, if I'm best, then I'll feel better. Then I'll feel better, right? And after a course of working together and working with her team and really getting her to get in touch with the incredible work that her company does from a real perspective, not where she's just telling herself it or patting herself on the back, but really beginning to see what they're doing, and a close attention to her, watching her inner world. She came up with the most beautiful business statement that I think I had ever heard, and couldn't even really remember the time, where she said, Yeah, I wanted to be the best. It wasn't about that, you know? It's about, I want to make a difference. This is what our team is doing. This is what I'm about in the world. This is what's important to me. And as a result, you know, made some incredible changes, money, you know, pouring in and working a lot on that automatic fear that you know financial ruin is on the other side of the wall, which is just a completely internal fear, and being able to release that so that you release the energetic field around you that's holding those circumstances in place, and having a