Podcasts about accessibe

True grit? Not the movie or book, but a real live individual. I met Laura Bratton about a month ago and realized that she was a very unique individual. Laura was referred to me by a gentleman who is helping both Laura and me find speaking venue leads through his company. Laura is just ramping up her public speaking career and our mutual colleague, Sam Richter, thought I could be of help. Little did I know at the outset that not only would I gain an excellent podcast guest, but that I would find someone whose life parallelled mine in many ways.   Laura Bratton began losing her eyesight at the age of nine years. Like me, she was one of the lucky ones who had parents who made the choice to encourage their daughter and help her live her life to the fullest. And live it she does. Laura attended public school in South Carolina and then went to Arizona State University to secure her bachelor's degree in Psychology. Why ASU? Wait until you hear Laura tell that story.   After securing her degree in Psychology she moved to the Princeton School of Divinity where she secured a Master's degree in Divinity. She followed up her Master's work by serving in a chaplaincy program in Ohio for a year.   Then, if all that wasn't enough, she became a pastor in the United Methodist Church and took a position in South Carolina. She still works part time as a pastor, but she also has taken some other exciting and positive life turns. As I mentioned earlier, she is now working to build a public speaking career. She also does one-on-one coaching. In 2016 she wrote her first book.   Laura shares many poignant and relevant life lessons she has learned over the years. We talk about courage, gratitude and grit. I asked her to define grit which she does. A very interesting and good definition indeed.   I often get the opportunity to have guests on this podcast who share life and other lessons with all of us. To me, Laura's insights are as relevant as any I have encountered. I hope you will feel the same after listening to our conversation. Please let me know what you think. You can email me at michaelhi@accessibe.com.       About the Guest:   At the age of nine, Laura was diagnosed with an eye disease and faced the difficult reality that she would become blind. Over the next ten years she experienced the traumatic transition of adjusting to life without sight.  Laura adjusted to her new normal and was able to move forward in life as she graduated from Arizona State University with a BA in psychology. She then was the first blind student to receive her Masters of Divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary.  She is the author of the book, Harnessing Courage. Laura founded Ubi Global, which is an organization that provides speaking and coaching to empower all people to overcome challenges and obstacles with grit and gratitude. Ways to connect with Dr. Laura:   Link for LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/laura-bratton-speaking   Website https://www.laurabratton.com/   Link for coaching page on website https://www.laurabratton.com/coaching  Link for book on website https://www.laurabratton.com/book   Link for speaking page on website https://www.laurabratton.com/speaking   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well and a gracious hello to you, wherever you happen to be on our planet today, I am your host, Michael Hinkson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and we sort of get to tie several of those together today, because my guest, Laura Bratton happens to be blind, so that brings inclusion into it, and we could talk about diversity all day. The experts really tend to make that a challenge, but we can talk about it ourselves, but Laura is blind, and she's going to tell us about that, and I don't know what else, because that's the unexpected part of this, but we're going to have ourselves a lot of fun for the next hour. She knows that the only rule of the podcast is you got to have fun, and you can't do better than that. So Laura, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Laura Bratton ** 02:12 Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity. I'm excited.   Michael Hingson ** 02:15 Well, this will be some fun, I'm sure, which is, of course, what it's all about. Well, why don't we start by you telling us kind of about the early Laura, growing up and all that, and anything about that that you think we ought to know that'll help us as we go forward.   Laura Bratton ** 02:31 So the early Laura was,   Michael Hingson ** 02:34 you know, that was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. But yeah,   Laura Bratton ** 02:38 was was fearless. Was involved in so many different activities, and I didn't have any health concerns or vision problems. And then around the age of nine, after the summer, after my second grade school year, my parents started noticing she's just holding books a little bit closer. She's just sitting a little bit closer to the TV than normal, than usually. So my they decided we'll just make a regular pediatric ophthalmology appointment, take her to the doctor, get the doctor to check her out. You know, if you need glasses, that's fine, and we'll just move on with our our summer and prepare for a new school year. So that June, when I had that doctor's appointment, my eyes were dilated. I'd read the the letters on the chart in the room. The doctors had looked in my eyes, and then the doctor just rolled back in his chair and looked at my mom and said, there's a major problem going on, and we need to address this, and I'm going to send you to a retina specialist. There's something major going on with her retinas. So from that appointment that started the rest of the summer and into the fall of just having doctors, different doctors appointments, meeting with specialists, trying to figure out why this 910, year old was all of a sudden having vision problems.   Michael Hingson ** 04:20 So yeah, go ahead that,   Laura Bratton ** 04:22 yeah. So that started the whole vision loss journey,   Michael Hingson ** 04:27 and what was the diagnosis that they finally came up with?   Laura Bratton ** 04:31 So they finally came up with a diagnosis of rare retinal onset disease. So it's not genetic. It wasn't like another accident, physical accident that calls the blindness. It's most similar to macular. So what I was losing first was my central vision. I still had all my peripheral vision, so it's very similar to macular, but not. Not quite macular or star guards. What's happens in children? So that's the diagnosis, just rare retinal disease.   Michael Hingson ** 05:11 Interesting, and they they didn't have any idea that what caused it. Do they have any better idea today? Or is it just so rare that they don't tend to pay a whole lot of attention. Great   Laura Bratton ** 05:23 question, yes and yes. So I've done a lot of genetic testing over the years, and the gene has not been discovered. That is obviously what they are predicting, is that there had to be some kind of gene mutation. But that gene hasn't been discovered. So far, the genes that are identified with vision problems, those have not been the problem for me so far. So the gene, Gene hasn't been discovered. So testing continues, but not exactly sure yet.   Michael Hingson ** 05:59 Yeah. So do you have any eyesight left, or is it all gone?   Laura Bratton ** 06:04 I don't, so to continue kind of that process of of the the early childhood. So I was diagnosed around nine, but I didn't lose any major vision until I was in middle school. So the end of middle school is when I started to lose a significant part of sight. So I went from very quickly from roller print, large print, to braille, and that was a very quick transition. So basically it was normal print to learning Braille and using Braille and textbooks and Braille and audio books and all that. Then through high school, I will throw more a significant amount of vision. So what I have currently is just very limited light perception, no, what I consider no usable vision, just light perception,   Michael Hingson ** 06:55 so you learn braille. So you learn braille in middle school. Then, yes, okay, absolutely. What did you think about that? Because that was certainly a life change for you. How did you deal with all of that?   Laura Bratton ** 07:10 How did I do with the process of learning braille or the emotional process?   07:14 Both,   Laura Bratton ** 07:16 they're kind of related, so both, they're very much related. So learning Braille was incredibly difficult because I was trying to learn it at the same time. Use it with textbooks in middle school level material rather than normal development. Of you learn braille and start out, you know, with with simple books, and slowly move up. I try, you know, I had to make that adjustment from learning Braille and then algebra in Braille or Spanish and Braille. So using the Braille was very difficult, but I was because I was forced to to learn it, because I had to, just to stay in school. You didn't really have a choice. As far as the emotional perspective. My first thoughts was just the denial, oh, it's not that bad, oh, it won't be forever. Oh, it's not going to get much worse than this. Just that denial of the reality. And then I can say more, if it just kind of that whole how that whole process unfolded, that's kind of the whole emotional process. It   Michael Hingson ** 08:34 certainly was a major change for you, yes, but it sounds like by the time all was said and done, and you did have to immerse yourself, like in learning Braille and so on. So it was an immersive kind of thing. You, You did come through it, and you, you seem to be functioning pretty well today, I would gather   Laura Bratton ** 08:55 Yes, because of focusing on the emotional mindset piece. So once that I've sort of began to move out of denial. It was that, okay, well, I can't this is just too hard. And then what I eventually realized and accepted was, yes, it's hard and I can move forward. So just a practical example, is what you were saying about having to be fully immersed in the Braille. Yes, is really hard to jump from learning braille to knowing Braille and algebra. But also choose to move forward. As you said, I choose to immerse myself in this so that I can continue life, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 09:42 and you you have done it. Well, how? How do you view blindness today?   Laura Bratton ** 09:49 That is a great question. So today is the balance of acknowledging. Yes, they're difficult moments. Yes, their stressful moments. Moments, and I have the resources to process that. So now, rather than just being a denial or being stuck in that I can't do this, I can say, okay, yes, this is hard. Yes, I am frustrated. Yes, I am overwhelmed in this moment, but also I can move forward with the gifts and purposes that I have in this world and using that as a strength. So for me, it's that acknowledging the rap the reality, but also moving forward with that belief in myself, trust in myself.   Michael Hingson ** 10:39 So how long did you at the beginning really grieve and view all this in a negative way? Because it sounds like you've evolved from that today.   Laura Bratton ** 10:53 Absolutely. So in my experience, the so I'm going to break the grief and the negative apart, because for me, it was two different experiences. So for me in those middle school, high school days, it was more than negative, and the grief just came along with that. Now even, you know, through college and even now, yes, there are moments that I grieve, but that negativity has turned into the mindset of strength, the mindset of trust, the mindset of okay, I can continue forward Again, living out those purposes, my purpose with those gifts as a source of strength, the source of courage. It's a source of just belief in myself. So my experience now is the mindset of holding both intention, holding space for both when I have those moments that I need to grieve, absolutely, giving myself those space and then at the same time, choosing to move forward with that courage, rather than being stuck in what I was in middle school of that negativity. Does that difference? Does that make us make sense of what I'm trying to separate the two?   Michael Hingson ** 12:19 Well, yeah, they overlap, but I understand what you're saying, Where, where and how were your parents in all of this?   Laura Bratton ** 12:28 So that was the incredible gift, that that was a deep source of strength, that as that middle school child who was in that negative place of denial and I can't, I can't. That was the source of strength. So immediately, when I was diagnosed, even though I didn't have major vision loss, I was diagnosed in elementary school, they wanted to send me to school for the deaf and blind, and so my parents had to fight to keep me in regular school. Again, I wasn't experiencing major vision loss, but just having minor vision loss, the school said, Okay, you're at a public school and going to a different school. So my parents were a source of strength, because they knowledge what was happening, what was going to happen, but also held me to the same standards.   Michael Hingson ** 13:25 And there are some schools, I don't know how much today, but in the past, there were some schools for the blind, and I'm not sure about schools for the deaf and blind, but we'll put them in the same category. But there were some schools that really did have very high standards, and and did do a great job. The Perkins School was one. Tom Sullivan, the actor, went through Perkins and and I know other people who did, but in general, the standards weren't the same, and I had the same issue. I remember my parents. We were in the office of the school principal of Yucca school where I went kindergarten through third grade here in California, okay, and I remember a shouting match between my father and my mother on one side, and Mr. Thompson, the principal on the other. And by the time all was said and done, he decided that it was he was going to acquiesce, because they were not going to let me go to the school for the blind, which would have been like, 400 miles away.   Laura Bratton ** 14:38 Okay, okay, so, so you can relate to that experience.   Michael Hingson ** 14:42 I can absolutely relate to that experience, and I think that it's for kids one of the most important things to hope comes along that parents deal with blindness in a in a positive way. Yes, and don't view it as something that's going to hold you back. I. 100% Yeah, because if they do, then that creates a much more difficult situation. Yes. So it's it's great that you had some parents who really stood up for you and helped as you went   Laura Bratton ** 15:15 Yes, and I was also deeply grateful that they all they held those standards at school, and they also held those standards at home. So they didn't just say, oh, you know, our expectations are lower for you at home, you don't have any more chores. You just kind of do whatever you want, get away with whatever you want. They kept those things standards. I still had chores we just made, you know, the accommodations are adapted if we needed to adapt anything. Yeah, a story that I always, always remember, just like you talking about you vividly remember being in that principal's office. I remember one day my the specific tour was unloading the dishwasher, and I remember thinking, well, oh, I'm not really, I don't really want to unload the dishwasher today. So I just kind of thought, Oh, the blindness will get me out of the situation. So I was like, Mom, I can't unload the dishwasher. I can't see exactly where to put all the silverware in the silverware of her door. And I still, I can still see this in my mind's eye. She was standing in the doorway the kitchen and the hallway, and she just turned around and just said, Laura, unload the dishwasher, put the silverware in the drawer, and just walked away. And that told me she was still holding me to the exact standards. She wasn't saying, Oh, honey, that's okay because of your blindness. Yeah, you don't have to do it. That was such a huge teaching moment for me, because it pulled me I can't use my blindness as an excuse. That was incredible experience and I always think back on and remember,   Michael Hingson ** 17:04 yeah, and I remember growing up, there were chores I did, there were chores My brother did, and there were things that we had to do, but we had, and my brother was cited two years older than I, but okay, but we had very supportive parents for both of us. And one of the things that the doctors told my parents when they discovered that I was blind, was that I was going to take all the love that the family had, even for my older sibling. Oh, my parent and my parents said that is just not so, and they worked really hard to make sure that my brother got all the things that that he needed and all the support that he needed as well. Wow. When he was still in high school, I remember they got him a car, and I don't remember when he got it. Maybe, I don't know whether he was already a senior in high school, but he got a car. And, you know, I didn't want a car. I right. I didn't want that, but, you know, that was okay. I would have driven it around if I got one, but, you know, that's okay, but, but parents are such an important part of the process, yes, and they have to be ready to take the leap, yes, that blindness isn't the problem. It's attitudes. That's really, that tend to really be the problem, right? 100%   Laura Bratton ** 18:24 and thankfully, thankfully, I had that. I had that experience another, another example that I always think of all the time, still such a vivid memory, is as as a family. We were a big sports family, and loved to go to different sporting events, and so we would always go to high school and college football games. And as I was in those middle school, high school years, those first, early days of experiencing difficult vision loss, where obviously I'm sitting in the sands and can't see the field clearly, rather than my parents saying, Oh, you're just going to stay home. Oh, you're not going with us. To be part of this, my dad are really, literally. Remember my dad saying, Here's a radio. I just put new batteries in. Let's go. So I would just sit there and, you know, with with my family, listening to the game on the radio. And that was such a gift, because, again, they didn't say, is what you're saying about the leap. They didn't say, okay, you can do this anymore. They just figured out a way to adapt so that I was still part.   Michael Hingson ** 19:34 Yeah, I've been to a number of baseball games, and the same thing, I've never been I've been to a high school football game, but I've never been to a pro football game, and I've never been to a basketball game, and while I think it would have been fun, I'm a little bit spoiled, and I think that the announcers today aren't as good as the announcers that we used to have, like Dick Enberg doing sports out here, who did. Football chick, Hearn, who did basketball, who could talk as fast as, I mean, he was, he was he taught me how to listen fast. That's great. He he talked as fast as many times books I read talk. He was just incredible. But that's okay. But still, I've been to games, and it is a lot of fun to be able to go and listen. It's even if you're listening on the radio, the point of being at the game is just the sounds and the experience of being at the game and hearing and interacting with all the sounds, because you're not hearing that as much through the radio as you are listening to the fans as they yell, or as the Yes, as the foul balls coming at you. You know, yes 100%   Laura Bratton ** 20:50 and just to feel the energy, you know, and your team's doing well, your team's not doing well, just to feel that energy, and there's to also to be there and have that, that fun experience with your family or friends, or you know, whoever you're with, that is such a fun experience. So yes,   Michael Hingson ** 21:08 so when you went into high school, did, what did you study? Or what did you do there?   Laura Bratton ** 21:15 What were your interests? So in college, when I   Michael Hingson ** 21:18 was thinking high school, but you can do college. So   Laura Bratton ** 21:21 High School, honestly, I didn't have specific professional interests, because it was just so much focused on the blind surviving and all the surviving, just the New Black, because the blindness was literally happening during high school, right? So my only focus was just survival passing because it was all of my energy was focused on the the learning Braille and just completing the assignments. Fast forward to college. My focus was definitely. My major was psychology. My focus was on psychology. A lot because of my personal experience, because of that experience in high school, and just that that not only that desire from my personal experience, but just using that experience to then help and support others from the mindset of of again, moving through that, that negativity to that, that foundation of grit. So it was definitely focused on psychology to be able to support others from a mindset perspective.   Michael Hingson ** 22:36 So how did you bring that into play in college?   Laura Bratton ** 22:40 So that was my focus. My My major was psychology, and then I I spent that, those years in college, figuring out specifically what area of psychology I wanted to focus on, which what, what facet of psychology I wanted my focus to be so that was, that was the purpose of the like psychology and taking different classes within psychology to try to figure out where my strengths within that Major   Michael Hingson ** 23:16 and what did you discover?   Laura Bratton ** 23:20 So what I discovered was I wanted the psychology to the mindset, to support people with to be that holistic perspective of, yes, the psychology, but also the spiritual connection and just our physical well being all connected together, so supporting our healthy mindsets and emotional health was not just psychology. It was the psychology, physical taking care of ourselves and the spiritual taking care of ourselves, all connected, combined together. So that's that's what led me to doing a master of divinity to be able to focus on and learn the spiritual part   Michael Hingson ** 24:15 of the mindset. So what part of psychology Did you eventually settle on   Laura Bratton ** 24:22 the holistic approach. So rather than just focus on specifically the mindset, focusing on us as a whole, being, supporting us through that mental, physical, spiritual connection that the healing, the empowerment came through, through all of that. So in that masters, what I focus on specifically was chaplaincy, so supporting people specifically I was a hospital chaplain, so focusing on helping people within the hospital setting, when they're there for different physical reasons and. Being able to be that spiritual presence focusing on both the spiritual and the emotional.   Michael Hingson ** 25:07 And where did you do your undergraduate study?   Laura Bratton ** 25:11 So I did my undergrad at Arizona State, and I was going to say a large reason, but not just a large reason, pretty much the whole reason I chose ASU was for their disability resources. So a major focus that that they emphasize is their disability resources is not a separate part of the university, but it's completely integrated into the university. So what I mean by that example of that is being a psychology major. I still had all the same classes. I was still in all the same classes as all the other psychology students on campus. I just had the accommodations that I needed. So that would be double time all testing or note takers, if I needed note takers in a class. So they did an incredible job, like they had a whole Braille lab that would print Braille books and provide books in PDF format. So the accommodations that I needed as a person who was blind were integrated in to the whole college experience. So that was incredibly powerful for me as a person who had just become blind and didn't know what resources were available.   Michael Hingson ** 26:37 Did you have any major challenges and major issues in terms of dealing with blindness and so on, while you're at ASU,   Laura Bratton ** 26:44 not at all. I am so grateful for that, because I wasn't the only person on campus who was blind. I wasn't the first blind person. I certainly wasn't the last so because they had so much experience, it was, it was an incredible, again, empowerment for me, because on the emotional perspective, it taught me, and literally practically showed me, yes, I give me a person with a disability and be integrated into the world, because They they showed me the resources that were available. So I was deeply, deeply grateful for what they taught me. Now, where did you grow up? So I grew up in South Carolina,   Michael Hingson ** 27:31 so that is and that's why I wanted to ask that, because we hadn't mentioned that you were from South Carolina before, but that was a major undertaking. Then to go all the way across country to go to ASU, yes. On the other hand, they do have a pretty good football team.   Laura Bratton ** 27:49 Just say Right, right, right   Michael Hingson ** 27:52 now, my I went to University California, Irvine. I don't even know. I'm sure they must have some sort of a football team today, but they do have a pretty good basketball team, and I haven't heard whether they won the Big West, but I haven't Yeah, but I haven't heard that they did. So I'm afraid that that they may not have until going to march madness. Yeah, but whatever,   Laura Bratton ** 28:21 team for March Madness spell your bracket in a different way.   Michael Hingson ** 28:25 Well, they've been in the big dance before they got to the Sweet 16 once, which was pretty cool. Wow, that's impressive. Yeah, that was pretty cool. That's so cool. What did your parents think of you going across country   Laura Bratton ** 28:42 again? Just like you talked about your parents being that taking that leap, they were incredibly supportive, because they knew ASU would provide the resources that I needed. Because again, in those years as I'm losing a major part of my sight, we didn't know other people who are blind. We didn't know what resources were available. Obviously, my parents reach out to people around us, you know, to connect with people who are blind, to learn about that, but we didn't have a lot of experience with that. So what we knew, and what my parents were excited about was ASU would be a place that I can not only have that college experience, but be taught the resources. And one of the major resources was my disability coordinator, so my disability coordinator, who was in charge of of creating all my accommodations, she was also blind, and that was such a healing experience for me, because she became a mentor. She was blind since birth. She. And so obviously we had different experiences, where I was just newly blind. She had been blind, but still, she was an incredibly powerful resource and mentor of just telling me, teaching me, not just telling me through her words, but living through her actions, you still have a full life like you're you're still a few a full human like you. This life still goes on. So she just modeled that in the way that she lived. So she she was, I'm so grateful for her mentorship, because she was very real. She had minimized blindness. But also she told me and taught me and showed me there's still a full, great life ahead,   Michael Hingson ** 30:53 which is really what all of us are trying to get the world to understand. Blindness isn't the end of the world. It's not the problem   Laura Bratton ** 31:02 exactly, exactly, she literally modeled that,   Michael Hingson ** 31:06 yeah, which was pretty cool. Well, then where did you go to get your Masters of divinity?   Laura Bratton ** 31:11 So then I went to get my masters at Princeton Theological Seminary, and that was a completely different experience, because, where as you, was completely set up for people with disabilities in the master's program, they had not had someone come through their program who was blind. So in that experience, I had to advocate and be very, very clear on what my needs were, meaning what the accommodations were that I needed, and then advocate that to the administration, which that wasn't a gift, because ASU had given me the foundation of knowing what I needed, what the accommodations Were then available. And then Princeton gave me the opportunity to become my own advocate, to force me to speak up and say, These are my needs, and these are accommodations I have. With these accommodations, I can be an equal student, so I'm not asking, Hey, give me good grades because I'm blind, but make the accommodation so that I have my books and PDF so I have double time on the test. So that was just as healing and just as powerful, because it gave me the opportunity to advocate and become clear on my needs so that I could communicate those needs. So   Michael Hingson ** 32:38 this is part of Princeton in New Jersey. Yes, so you were were in Jersey for a while, huh? Yes,   Laura Bratton ** 32:45 I went from sunny weather to   Michael Hingson ** 32:50 snowy weather. Well, you had some of that in South Carolina too, though,   Laura Bratton ** 32:53 yes, true, but from undergrad, it was quite the change.   Michael Hingson ** 32:58 Ah. But the real question is, when you were in New Jersey. Did you get to meet any members of the family? You know what I'm saying, the mob, Oh yes, absolutely being bada. Boom. Come on now,   Laura Bratton ** 33:11 definitely, definitely, definitely, absolutely, absolutely, yeah, lot of local restaurants and Oh yes,   Michael Hingson ** 33:21 oh yes. When we were building our home in New Jersey, my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life, and we decided that when we went to New Jersey, because I was going to be working in the city New York, we wanted to build a house, because it's cheaper to build an accessible home for somebody in a wheelchair. My wife then it is to buy a house and modify it so we wanted to build. And it turns out that the person who financed the building, we got a mortgage and all that without any difficulty, but we had to get somebody to build the house. And the realtors had people they worked with, the financier. Part of that was from a guy, well, let's just say his main business was, he was in the garbage business, and his last name was, was Pinto. So, you know, let's just say we know where he got his money. You know,   Laura Bratton ** 34:18 yes, yes. I had several those experiences too. Yeah, the garbage business seems to be big in Jersey. It   Michael Hingson ** 34:25 is big in Jersey, but, but, you know, but they were all, they were all very nice to us good. And so it really worked out well. It did. It all worked out. We had a wonderful home. The only difference between our house and the others around us is we had to include an elevator in the house, okay? Because we couldn't have a ranch style home. There wasn't room, and so we had to have and all the other homes in the development were two story homes, okay, but we had to have an elevator. So that was essentially about a $15,000 An uplift over what the House would have cost otherwise. But right again, you build it in so it's not that huge of a deal,   Laura Bratton ** 35:06 right? That's perfect. So all your neighbors are jealous.   Michael Hingson ** 35:10 Well, they didn't have the elevator. They didn't come and ride it much. So they didn't ask for their their their bigger challenges were, who's giving the biggest party at Christmas or Halloween? So we didn't participate in that, so we weren't we weren't a problem.   35:28 That's great,   Michael Hingson ** 35:30 yeah, so you've talked about grit a couple times, so tell me about grit, because clearly that's important to you,   Laura Bratton ** 35:39 yeah? So it's so important to me, because that was a main source of empowerment. So just as I talked about that negativity in the middle school high school, what grit helped me to do is take the overwhelming future that I was so fearful, I was extremely anxious as I looked at the whole picture everything ahead of me. So the grit came in and taught me. Grit is taking it day by day, moment by moment, step by step. So rather than looking at the whole picture and getting overwhelmed, the power of grit taught me all I need to do is trust myself for this next hour. All I need to do is trust in the support that my parents are giving me this next day. So breaking it down into manageable goals was the strength of the grit. So to break it down, rather than the whole future,   Michael Hingson ** 36:49 I didn't ask, do you did you have any siblings? Do you have any siblings?   Laura Bratton ** 36:53 Yeah, so I have one older brother. Okay, so   Michael Hingson ** 36:57 how was he with you being that you were blind. Was he a good older protective brother who never let anybody near his sister?   Laura Bratton ** 37:06 He was a good older protective brother in that he did exactly what my parents did in not having different expectations. Yeah, he so he's five years older. So when I'm 14, losing a significant amount of vision, or 15, losing a certain amount of division. He, you know, was 1920 doing great in college. So a perfect example of this connects with the grit he, he taught me, and again, not in word, not so much in words, but again, in those actions of we will figure this out. We don't know the resources that are available. We don't know exactly what the future looks like, but we as a family will figure this out. Me, as your older brother, our parents being our parents, we will figure it out day by day, step by step. And I remember a lot of people would ask my parents, what's her future, and then even ask my brother, what's her future? What's she gonna do? And they would honestly answer, we don't know, but as a family, we'll figure it out, and we'll provide the strength that she needs, and that's what I mean by the grit. So it wasn't, this is her future, and they just, you know, named it for being home with us, right? But it was, I don't know, but day by day, we'll have the grit to figure it out. So I'm glad you asked about my siblings, because that's a perfect example of how that grit came into play and was such a powerful source of strength.   Michael Hingson ** 38:54 So what did you do after you got your master's degree?   Laura Bratton ** 38:58 So after I got my master's degree, I then did a residency, just like I was talking about the chaplaincy. I did a residency specifically in chaplaincy to to complete that process of being a chaplain. So in that that was a year long process, and in that process, that was an incredible experience, because, again, it taught me, you are a complete human with gifts and talents. You just happen to be blind and need specific accommodations because of the blindness. So what I mean by that is, just as ASU gave me the resources regarding blindness, and just as Princeton gave me the gift to advocate for those resources, the experience in the chaplaincy taught me when I walked into a high. Hospital room and introduced myself as the chaplain on the unit. The patient didn't know, or didn't care how long I had been blind, or how did I make it on the unit? Or how did I know they wanted chaplain? They didn't care. They were just thankful and glad that I was there to serve them and be in that Chaplain role. So it was that's why it was empowering of healing to me, because it taught me not to focus so much on the blindness, but to view myself as that whole person, especially in that professional experience, so I can give endless examples of specifically how that, how, just the patient reaction taught me so much.   Michael Hingson ** 40:49 Where did you do your chaplaincy?   Laura Bratton ** 40:52 I did it at the Clinton clinic in Ohio. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 40:56 my goodness, you did move around. Now. What got you there? Speaking of snow in the winter, yeah,   Laura Bratton ** 41:02 literally, I Yes, I can talk about that. And a lot of experiences there with snow, like effect snow is real. So they were very strong in their chaplaincy program and developing Kaplan's and also their Kaplan Z training was a focus that I wanted that holistic mind, body, spirit. It wasn't just spiritual or wasn't just psychological, it was the holistic experience of a whole person. So how wanting that to be my focus moving forward, that's where I chose to go to be able to focus on that. So again, it was such an incredible source of of healing through just through those patient interactions.   Michael Hingson ** 41:58 Well, one of the things that is clear about you is you're not bitter about any of the things that have happened, and that, in reality, you are a person who appreciates and understands the concept of gratitude.   Laura Bratton ** 42:11 Yes, yes. And specifically, let me go back to those high school days, and then I'll come back to the chaplain days, the way of the gratitude my focus started was not because I wanted gratitude, not because I chose to woke up, wake up one day and say, Oh, I'm so grateful for this blindness. But it all came through a mentor who said to me in those high school days, Laura, I want you to start writing down three things that you are grateful for each day and every day, I want you to write down three things that you're grateful for. So in my mind, my immediate reaction as a teenager, high schooler, was that's not good advice. I'm not sure you're a good mentor. I'm experiencing a major change in life, permanent life event. I don't know that there's a lot to be grateful for. So in my stubbornness, I said, Okay, I'm going to prove her wrong. So I started to think of the three things each day I was grateful for. And over the weeks that I did this, I then realized what she was teaching me, she was showing me. She wasn't asking me to be grateful for the blindness. She was asking me to recognize the gifts that the support that I had within the blindness. So, for example, the supportive parents, the older brother, who didn't make accommodations, or I mean, did make accommodations. Didn't lower expectations because of the blindness. So fast forward to the chaplaincy. I was incredibly grateful for all those patient experiences, because, again, it taught me to view myself as the whole person, not so hyper focused on the blindness. So one specific example that sticks out and was so clear to me is one day I had a patient request that one to see a chaplain, and I went in to this specific unit, and the so I walked in, my walked into the room, the patient took a look at my guide dog and me, and said, You're blind, like completely with this question or voice. And my thought was, well, I think so. I mean, that was this morning when I woke up, and so I said, Yes. And she said, Okay, then I'll, I'll share honestly with you how I'm doing and what I had learned, what I learned after my visit with her is she would not open up to the doctors, the nurses, the social workers, anyone who walked in the room. When I walked in the room and she didn't feel like she was being judged on her physical appearance, she was willing to open up and honestly share how she was feeling emotionally with her physical diagnosis. So that led that one conversation led to multiple visits where she could move forward in her healing emotionally because she was willing to open up and share and be honest with me as the chaplain. So that was an incredible situation of gratitude, because it taught me, yes, this is hard, yes, this is stressful. Yes, there are moments of being overwhelmed, and also their deep, deep moments that I am incredibly grateful for, that other people who are side sighted don't have that opportunity.   Michael Hingson ** 46:36 One of the things that I talk about and think about as life goes on, is we've talked about all the accommodations and the things that you needed to get in order to be able to function. What we and most everyone, takes for granted is it's the same for sighted people. You know, we invented the electric light bulb for sighted people. We invented windows so they can look out. Yes, we invent so many things, and we provide them so that sighted people can function right. And that's why I say, in large part, blindness isn't the problem, because the reality is, we can make accommodations. We can create and do create alternatives to what people who can see right choose, and that's important for, I think, everyone to learn. So what did you do after your year of chaplaincy?   Laura Bratton ** 47:39 So after my year of chaplaincy, after that incredible experience of just offering the patient care, I completed the part of the well after assorted in the master's program. But then after that, also completed my ordination in the Methodist Church. So I was appointed. I went to the process the ordination process, and then I was appointed to a local church back here in South Carolina. And again, with my focus on chaplaincy, my focus on patient care, I was appointed to that church for because what they needed most in the pastor the leader, was that emphasis on the pastoral care the mind, body, spirit connection. So as I became pastor, I was able to continue that role of what I was doing in the Kaplan see, of using both my professional experience as well as my personal experience of providing spiritual care to the members. So that was an incredible way. And again, that gratitude, it just I was so grateful that I could use those gifts of pastoral care, of chaplaincy to benefit others, to be a strength to others. Again, is that that whole person that that we   Michael Hingson ** 49:13 are now? Are you still doing that today? Or what are you doing   Laura Bratton ** 49:16 now? So I'm still I'm still there part time, okay,   Michael Hingson ** 49:21 and when you're not there, what are you doing?   Laura Bratton ** 49:23 I'm doing professional speaking, and it's all centered around my passion for that again, came when I was at Princeton, when I was doing the focus on chaplaincy, I became so passionate about the speaking to share my personal experience of the change I experienced, and also to empower others as they experience change, so not to be stuck in that. Negativity like we talked about in those middle school, high school days, but rather that everybody, regardless of the situation, could experience change, acknowledge it, and move forward with that balance of grit and gratitude. So that's my deep passion for and the reason for the speaking is to share that grit gratitude, as we all experience change.   Michael Hingson ** 50:26 So what made you decide to begin to do public speaking that what? What was the sort of the moment or the the inspiration that brought that about,   Laura Bratton ** 50:40 just that deep desire to share the resource that I'd experienced. So as I received so much support from family and community, is I had received that support of learning how to use the grit in the change, and then as I received the sport support of how to use the gratitude in the change, the reason for this, speaking and what made me so passionate, was to be able to empower others to also use this resource. So I didn't just want to say, okay, it worked for me, and so I'll just keep this to myself, but rather to use that as a source and empowerment and say, Hey, this has been really, really difficult, and here's how I can use the difficulty to empower others to support others.   Michael Hingson ** 51:31 So how's that working for you?   Laura Bratton ** 51:34 Great. I love, love, love supporting others as they go through that change. Because again, it comes back to the blindness. Is not not all we focus on, it's not all we think about, it's not all we talk about, it's not all we do, but being able to use that as a shrink to empower others. So just speaking to different organizations as they're going through change, and working with them speaking on that. How can they specifically apply the grit, the gratitude? How does that? What does that look like, practically, in their organization, in their situation? So I love it, because it takes the most difficult thing that I've been through, and turns it around to empower others.   Michael Hingson ** 52:24 What do you think about the concept that so many people talk about regarding public speaking, that, Oh, I couldn't be a public speaker. I don't want to be up in front of people. I'm afraid of it, and it's one of the top fears that we constantly hear people in society have that is being a public speaker. What do you think about that?   Laura Bratton ** 52:47 So two, two perspectives have helped me to process that fault, because you're right. People literally say that to me every day. How do you do that? I could never do that. I hear that every single day, all day, and what I've learned is when I focus on, yes, maybe it is the large audience, but focusing on I'm speaking to each person individually, and I'm speaking. I'm not just speaking to them, but I was speaking to serve them, to help again, that empowerment, to provide empowerment. So what I think about that is I don't focus on, oh my gosh. What are they going to think of me? I'm scared up here. Rather to have that mindset of, I'm here to share my life experiences so that they can be served and empowered to continue forward. So just shifting the mindset from fear to support fear to strength, that's that's how I view that concept of I could never do that, or that's my worst fear.   Michael Hingson ** 54:01 So a lot of people would say it takes a lot of courage to do what you do, what? How do you define courageous or being courageous?   Laura Bratton ** 54:08 Great question. That's a working, work in progress. So far, what I've learned over the years and again, this is a process. Not there wasn't just one moment where I said, Okay, now I'm courageous, and I'm courageous forever, or this is the moment that made me courageous, but how I understand it and how I process it now is for me and my experience courage is accepting and acknowledging the reality and then choosing to move forward with the grit, choosing to move forward with the gratitude. So holding both intention, both can be true, both I can acknowledge. Okay, this is difficult. Cult, and also I can also believe and know. I can have the grit moment by moment by moment. I can have the gratitude moment by moment by moment. So for me, courage is holding both intention the reality and what I mean by both is the reality of the blindness and reality of the frustration of people's faults, judgments. You know all that you can't do this. How can you do that without sight holding all of that at the same time as I have the support I need to move forward? So for me, Courage looks like acknowledging why I'm overwhelmed and then choosing at that same time to move forward with the support that I have. Mm, hmm. So again, that's what I mean by it's not just like one moment that, oh yeah, I'm gonna be courageous now forever, there's certainly a moment so I don't feel courageous, and that's okay. That's part of garbage. Just acknowledging that frustration and also choosing to move forward. So it's doing both it at the same time.   Michael Hingson ** 56:10 We live in a world today where there is a lot of change going on, yes, and some for the good, some not for the good, and and all sorts of things. Actually, I was reading an article this morning about Michael Connolly, the mystery writer who, for four decades, has written mystery books. He's lived in Los Angeles. He had a wonderful house, and everything changed when the fires hit and he lost his home and all that. But he continues to to move forward. But what advice would you give? What kinds of things do you say to people who are undergoing change or experiencing change?   Laura Bratton ** 56:52 I'm so glad you asked that, because I I didn't mention this in the grit so much of the grit that I experienced. So the advice I would give, or practically, what I do with someone that just what I did right before our we connected, was being being that grit for someone going through change. So in that, for example, in that speaking when I'm speaking to a group about the change they're experiencing, acknowledging, for them to acknowledge, let me be your grit. You might be overwhelmed. You might be incredibly fearful and overwhelmed by the future, by the task in front of you. So let me be the example of grit to to show you that there is support, there is courage, there is that foundation to be able to move forward. So that's my first advice, is just allowing others to be your grit when you don't feel like you had it, because, again, in those high school days and and even now days when I don't feel like I have any grit, any courage, and yet, I'll lean on the courage, the strength, the grit, of those around me so once they acknowledge and allow me to be their grit, and they their support through that change, then allowing them to slowly have that grit for themselves, and again reminding them, it's not an instant process. It's not an instant do these three steps and you'll have grit forever. But it's a continual process of grit and gratitude that leads us through the change, through the difficulty.   Michael Hingson ** 58:46 Have you used the technique that that person that you talked about earlier in high school used when she asked you to write down every day three things that you were grateful for?   Laura Bratton ** 58:56 Yes, absolutely, and the the funny part of that, what that makes me laugh is a lot of people have the exact same reaction I had when I present it to them. They immediately say, I'm not going to do that. That's no Why would I do that? They immediately think that is a horrible piece of advice. And how can I recommend? And I just, I don't say, Oh, well, just try it anyway. I just say, Well, okay, just try it and see. Just, just prove me wrong. And just like my experience, they try it and then a week or two days like, oh, that actually worked. I didn't think that would so, yeah, I'm so glad you said that, because that happens a lot. People said that is that doesn't make sense. Why are you telling me to be grateful in the midst of this overwhelming situation? So yes, great, great perspective that happens all the time.   Michael Hingson ** 59:55 Well, we've been doing this now for about an hour, but before we wrap up, do you. Have any other advice that you want to pass on for people who are dealing with change or fearing change in their lives right now,   Laura Bratton ** 1:00:08 the advice would be, take it step by step, moment by moment, rather than trying to navigate through the whole change at one time that's overwhelming, and that that's not the process that is most healing. So to trust in yourself, to trust that grit around you, and then just like, like you were saying, and ask me, and it doesn't seem like it'll work, but try the gratitude, try that three things every day you're grateful for, and just see what happens as you navigate through the change. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:52 And it really does work, which is the point?   Laura Bratton ** 1:00:54 Which is the point? Right? Right? We don't think it's going to but it, it totally does   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:59 well. Laura, I want to thank you for being with us. This has been absolutely wonderful and fun, and I hope that people who listen got and who watch it got a lot out of it. And you, you provided a lot of good expectation setting for people. And you, you've certainly lived a full life. We didn't mention we got us before you we we sign off. You're also an author,   Laura Bratton ** 1:01:24 yes. So I wrote harnessing courage again, just like the reason I speak, I was so passionate about taking the grit and the gratitude that I use that was such a source of Empower for me, I wanted to tell my story and tell it through the perspective of grit and gratitude so that other people could also use it as a resource. So the book tells my story of becoming blind and adapting and moving forward, but through the complete expected perspective of the gratitude, how I didn't believe the gratitude would work, how I struggled with thinking, Oh, the gratitude is ridiculous. That's never going to be source of empowerment. Yet it was so. The purpose of the book, my hope, my goal for the book, is that people can read it and take away those resources as they face their own change their own challenges.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:30 And when did you write it? So I wrote   Laura Bratton ** 1:02:33 it in it was published in 2016 Okay, so it that that definitely was, was my goal and passion, and that just writing the book was incredibly healing. Was like a great source of strength. Cool,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:50 well, I hope people will get it. Do you do any coaching today or   Laura Bratton ** 1:02:54 Yes, so I do coaching as well as the speaking so the the one on one coaching, as people are experiencing difficult, difficult or just navigating through change, I do the one on one coaching as well as the speaking,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:11 which is certainly a good thing that chaplaincy taught you. Yes, 100% Well, thank you again for being here, and I want to thank all of you for being with us today, wherever you are. We would appreciate it. I would definitely appreciate it. If when you can, you go to wherever you're listening to or watching the podcast and give us a five star review. We absolutely value your reviews. I'd love to hear your thoughts about this, and I'm sure Laura would. So you're welcome to email me at Michael, M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, love to hear your thoughts. And also, of course, as I said, we'd love your your five star reviews, wherever you're listening. Also, if any of you, Laura, including you, have any thoughts of others who we ought to have on this podcast, we're always looking for more guests, and we really would appreciate it if you'd let anyone know who might be a good guest in your mind, that they can reach out or email me, and I'll reach out, but we really would appreciate that. But again, Laura, I just want to thank you one more time for being here and for taking all this time with us today.   Laura Bratton ** 1:04:27 Thank you for the opportunity, and thank you for hosting this podcast. Incredibly powerful and we all need to be reminded   **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:37 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

I have mentioned before a program I attend entitled Podapalooza. This quarterly event brings together podcasters, would-be podcasters and people interested in being interviewed by podcasters. This all-day program is quite fun. Each time I go I request interview opportunities to bring people onto Unstoppable Mindset. I never really have a great idea of who I will meet, but everyone I have encountered has proven interesting and intriguing.   This episode we get to meet Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett who I met at Podapalooza 12. I began our episode by asking Laura to tell me a bit about her growing up. We hadn't talked about this before the episode. The first thing she told me was that she was kind of an afterthought child born some 12.5 years after her nearest sibling. Laura grew up curious about many things. She went to University in Calgary. After obtaining her Master's degree she worked for some corporations for a time, but then went back to get her Doctorate in Organization Psychology.   After discussing her life a bit, Dr. Laura and I discussed many subjects including fear, toxic bosses and even something she worked on since around 2005, working remotely. What a visionary Laura was. I like the insights and thoughts Dr. Lovett discusses and I think you will find her thoughts worth hearing.   On top of everything else, Laura is a podcaster. She began her podcast career in 2020. I get to be a guest on her podcast, _Where Work Meets Life_TM, in May of 2025. Be sure to check out her podcast and listen in May to see what we discuss.   Laura is also an author as you will learn. She is working on a book about toxic bosses. This book will be published in January of 2026. She also has written two fiction books that will soon be featured in a television series. She tells us about what is coming.       About the Guest:   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett is an Organizational Psychologist, Keynote Speaker, Business Leader, Author, and Podcast Host. She is a sought-after thought leader on workplace psychology and career development internationally, with 25 years of experience. Dr. Laura is a thought leader on the future of work and understands the intersection of business and people.     Dr. Laura's areas of expertise include leadership, team, and culture development in organizations, remote/hybrid workplace success, toxic leadership, career development, and mental health/burnout. She holds a Ph.D. in Industrial/Organizational Psychology from the University of Calgary, where she is currently an Adjunct Professor.     As a passionate entrepreneur, Dr. Laura has founded several psychology practices in Canada since 2009, including Canada Career Counselling, Synthesis Psychology, and Work EvOHlution™ which was acquired in 2021.  She runs the widely followed podcast _Where Work Meets Life_TM, which began in 2020.  She speaks with global experts on a variety of topics around thriving humans and organizations, and career fulfillment.     In addition to her businesses, she has published two psychological thrillers, Losing Cadence and Finding Sophie. She hopes to both captivate readers and raise awareness on important topics around mental health and domestic violence.  These books are currently being adapted for a television series.  Dr. Laura received a Canadian Women of Inspiration Award as a Global Influencer in 2018. Ways to connect with Dr. Laura:   Email: Connect@drlaura.live   Website: https://drlaura.live/    LinkedIn: @drlaurahambley/    Keynotes: Keynotes & Speaking Engagements   Podcast: Where Work Meets Life™ Podcast   Author: Books   Newsletter: Subscribe to Newsletter   Youtube: @dr.laurawhereworkmeetslife   Facebook: @Dr.Laura.whereworkmeetslife   Instagram: @dr.laura__   Tik Tok: @drlaura__   X: @DrLaura_   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:     Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.     Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, wherever you happen to be, I want to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Mike hingson, and we have, I think, an interesting guest today. She's an organizational psychologist. She is a keynote speaker, and she even does a podcast I met Dr Laura through a function that we've talked about before on this podcast, Pata palooza. We met at pollooza 12. So that goes back to January. I think Dr Laura is an organizational psychologist. As I said, she's a keynote speaker. She runs a podcast. She's written books, and I think you've, if I'm not mistaken, have written two fiction books, among other things, but we'll get to all that. But Laura, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And thank you very much for being here.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 02:12 Well, thank you for having me, Michael. I really think the world of you and admire your spirit, and I'm just honored to be here speaking with you today. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:22 as I tell people when they come on the podcast, we do have one hard and fast rule, and that is, you're supposed to have fun. So if you can't have fun, forget about   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 02:30 it. Okay, alright, I'm willing to There   Michael Hingson ** 02:34 you go see you gotta have a little bit of fun. Well, why don't we start as I love to do with a lot of folks tell us kind of about the early Laura, growing up and all that, and kind of how you got where you are, if you will. Oh, my goodness, I know that opens up a lot of options.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 02:52 I was an afterthought child. I was the sixth child of a Catholic mother who had five children in a row, and had me 12 years later, unplanned, same parents, but all my siblings are 12 to 19 years older than me, so I was caught between generations. I always wanted to be older than I was, and I felt, you know, I was almost missing out on the things that were going on before me. But then I had all these nieces and nephews that came into the world where I was the leader of the pack. So my niece, who's next in line to me, is only three years younger, so it just it makes for an interesting dynamic growing up where you're the baby but you're also the leader. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 03:39 lot of advantages there, though I would think,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 03:42 Oh yeah, it taught me a lot about leadership. It taught me about followership. It taught me about life and learning the lessons from my older siblings of what you know, they were going through and what I wanted to be like when I grew up.   Michael Hingson ** 03:58 So, so what kind of things did you learn from all of that? And you know, what did, what did they teach you, and what did they think of you, all of your older siblings? Oh, they loved me. I was, I bet they were. Yeah, you were the baby sister.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 04:13 But I should add my mom was mentally ill, so her mental illness got worse after having me, I think, and I know this about postpartum, as you get older and postpartum hits, it can get worse later on and and she suffered with a lot of mental health challenges, and I would say that that was the most challenging part of growing up for me.   Michael Hingson ** 04:42 Did she ever get over that? Or?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 04:45 No, we just, I mean, it had its ups and downs. So when times were good, she was great, she was generous, she was loving. She was a provider, a caretaker. She had stayed at home her whole life, so she was the stay at home mom, where you'd come home from school. And there'd be hot, baked cookies and stuff, you know, she would really nurture that way. But then when she had her lows, because it was almost a bipolar situation, I would, I would say it was undiagnosed. I mean, we never got a formal diagnosis, but she had more than one psychotic break that ended her in the hospital. But I would say when she was down, she would, you know, run away for a few days and stay in another city, or have a complete meltdown and become really angry and aggressive. And, I mean, it was really unpredictable. And my father was just like a rock, just really stable and a loving influence and an entrepreneur like I am, so that, you know, he really helped balance things out, but it was hard on him as well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:48 I'll bet. Yeah, that's never easy. Is she still with us, or is she passed?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 05:53 No, she got dementia and she passed. The dementia was about 12 years of, you know, turning into a baby. It's so sad that over 12 years, we just she lost her mind completely, and she died in 2021 and it was hard. I mean, I felt like, oh, man, you know, that was hard. I you know, as much as it was difficult with her and the dementia was difficult. I mean, she was my mother, and, yeah, it was a big loss for me. And I lost my father at age 21 and that was really hard. It was a very sudden with an aneurysm. And so that was in 1997 so I've been a long time without parents in my life.   Michael Hingson ** 06:30 Wow. Well, I know what you mean. My father, in this is his opinion, contracted some sort of a spore in Africa during World War Two, and it manifested itself by him losing, I think it was white blood cells later in his life, and had to have regular transfusions. And eventually he passed in 1984 and my belief is, although they classified it as congestive heart failure, he had enough other diseases or things that happened to him in the couple of years before he passed. I think it was actually HIV that he died from, because at that time, they still didn't understand about tainted blood, right? And so he got transfusions that probably were blood that that was a problem, although, you know, I can't prove that, and don't know it, but that's just kind of my opinion.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 07:34 Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that, Michael, that is so, so sad.   Michael Hingson ** 07:38 Yeah. And then my mom was a smoker most of her life, and she fell in 1987 and broke her hip, and they discovered that she also had some some cancer. But anyway, while she was in the hospital recovering from the broken hip, they were going to do some surgery to deal with the cancer, but she ended up having a stroke and a heart attack, and she passed away. So Oh, my God. I lost my mom in 1987   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 08:04 and you know, you were young. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 08:08 I was, I was 37 when she died. So still, I missed them both, even today, but I I had them for a while, and then my brother, I had until 2015 and then he passed from cancer. So it happens, and I got married in 1982 to my wife, Karen, who was in a wheelchair her whole life, and she passed in 2022 so we were married 40 years. So lots of memories. And as I love to tell people all the time, I got to continue to be a good kid, because I'm being monitored from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I know I'm going to hear about it. So,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 08:49 you know, well, that's a beautiful, long marriage that the two of you had   Michael Hingson ** 08:55 was and lots of memories, which is the important things. And I was blessed that with September 11 and so on, and having written thunder dog, the original book that I wrote about the World Trade Center and my life, it was published in 2011 and I was even reading part of it again today, because I spoke at a book club this morning, it just brings back lots of wonderful memories with Karen, and I just can't in any way argue with the fact that we did have a great 40 years. So no regrets.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 09:26 Wow, 40 years.   Michael Hingson ** 09:30 Yeah. So, you know, it worked out well and so very happy. And I know that, as I said, I'm being monitored, so I I don't even chase the girls. I'm a good kid. Chris, I would point out none of them have chased me either. So, you know,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 09:49 I love your humor. It's so awesome. So we gotta laugh, Mark, because the world's really tricky right now. Oh gosh, isn't it? It's very tricky. And I'd love to talk. About that today a bit, because I'm just having a lot of thoughts about it and a lot of messages I want to get across being well, you are well psychologist and a thought leader and very spiritual and just trying to make a difference, because it's very tricky.   Michael Hingson ** 10:16 So how did you get into psychology and all that. So you grew up, obviously, you went to college and tell me about that and how you ended up getting into the whole issue of psychology and the things that you do. Well,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 10:30 I think being the youngest, I was always curious about human dynamics in my family and the siblings and all the dynamics that were going on, and I was an observer of all of that. And then with my mother and just trying to understand the human psyche and the human condition. And I was a natural born helper. I always wanted to help people, empathetic, very sensitive kid, highly sensitive person. So then when I went into psycho to university. We University. We call it up here for an undergrad degree, I actually didn't know what I wanted to do. I was a musician as well. I was teaching music throughout high school, flute and piano. I had a studio and a lot of students. And thought, well, maybe do I want to do a music degree? Or, Oh, maybe I should go into the family business of water treatment and water filtration that my father started for cities, and go in and do that and get a chemical engineering degree. Not really interested in that, though, no. And then just kind of stumbled my way through first year. And then I was really lost. And then I came across career counseling. And I thought, Okay, this is going to help me. And it did. And psychology lit up like a light bulb. I had taken the intro to psych course, which is more of a hodgepodge mix of topics. I'm like, yeah, and then, but when I looked at the second year courses in the third year and personality and abnormal psych and clinical psych and all of that. I thought, Oh, I found my place. This is juicy. This is interesting. And I want to help people. Is   Michael Hingson ** 12:09 this to say you fit right in when you were studying Abnormal Psychology? Just checking,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 12:14 yeah, probably okay. I actually didn't go down the clinical psych route, which is where it's the clinical psych and the psychiatrists that tackle more of the personality disorders. So I went into counseling psych, which is the worried well. We call it the worried well. So people like you and I who are going through life, experiencing the various curve balls that life has to offer, and I know you've been through more than your fair share, but it's helping people get through the curve balls. And I specialized in career, I ended up saying people spend most of their waking lives, you know, working or thinking about work as part of their identity. So I specialized in career development psychology in my master's degree.   Michael Hingson ** 13:01 Yeah, well, that's, that's certainly, probably was easier than flute and piano. You couldn't do both of those at the same time.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 13:07 I ended up having to, yeah, it became too much. I tried to for a while.   Michael Hingson ** 13:13 Yeah, you can play the flute or the piano, but kind of hard to do both at the same time. Oh,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 13:18 at the same time, yeah, unless you play with your toes, which I've seen people actually people do that, yeah, do Yeah. There's this one speaker in our national speakers group, and he he does a lot with his toes, like I remember him playing the drums with his toes at his last keynote. So I was just amazed. So horn with no arms and does everything with his feet. So I bet he could do some piano too. There you go.   Michael Hingson ** 13:49 But then, of course, having no arms and he would also have a problem doing piano at the same time. But, you know, that's okay, but still, so you went into to psychology, which I find is a is a fascinating subject. Anyway, my interest was always in the physical sciences, so I got my master's degree in physics, although I did take a couple of psychology courses, and I enjoyed it. I remember the basic intro to psych, which was a lot of fun, and she's had a real hodgepodge, but still it was fascinating. Because I always was interested in why people behave the way they do, and how people behave the way they do, which is probably why I didn't go into theoretical physics, in a sense. But still it was and is very interesting to see how people behave, but you went off and got your masters, and then you also got a PhD along the line, huh?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 14:47 Yeah, that was interesting. I did the Masters, and then I always did things a little differently. Michael, so all of my peers went on to become registered psychologists, which, which means you have. To go through a registration process, and instead, I got pulled into a.com company. We called them dot coms at the time, because in 1999 when I started with a.com It was a big thing. I mean, it was exciting, right? It was and it was a career development related.com that had a head office in New York City, and I ended up leading a team here in Calgary, and we were creating these technologies around helping people assess their passions, their interests, their skills, and then link to careers. We had about 900 careers in our database, and then linking people to educational programs to get them towards those careers. So I remember coming up a lot of times to Rutgers University and places like that, and going to New York City and dealing with that whole arena. So I was, you know, from a young age, I'd say I was too young to rent a car when I flew there, but I had a team of about 15 people that I oversaw, and it was great experience for me at an early age of, okay, you know, there's a lot I'm learning a lot here, because I really wasn't trained in Business and Management at that time, right?   Michael Hingson ** 16:17 But you But you did it.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 16:20 I did it, yeah, I did it. And then I ended up working for another consulting firm that brought me into a whole bunch of organizations working on their competency models. So I did a lot of time in the Silicon Valley, working in different companies like Cisco, and I was just in this whole elaborate web of Okay. Organizations are quite interesting. They're almost like families, because they have a lot of dynamics there. It's interesting. And you can make a difference, and you can help the organization, the people in the workplace, you know, grow and thrive and develop. And I'm okay, you know, this is interesting, too. I like this. And then at that time, I knew I wanted to do a doctorate, and I discovered that organizational Psych was what I wanted to do, because it's the perfect blend of business and psychology. Because I'm a serial entrepreneur, by the way, so entrepreneurship, psychology, business, kind of the best of both worlds. Okay, I'm going to do that, so that's what I did.   Michael Hingson ** 17:24 That certainly is kind of cool. So when did you end up getting your doctorate?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 17:28 I finished that in 2005   Michael Hingson ** 17:31 okay, were you working while you were doing that? Or did you just go back to school full   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 17:36 time? I had to go back to school because the program was very heavy. It was a program where you could not work full time during it. I still worked part time during it. I was working hard because I was registering as a psychologist at the same time, I knew I wanted to register and become a psychologist, and I knew I wanted to get that doctorate, and there were times when I almost stepped away, especially at the beginning of it, because when you're out in the real world, and then you go back into academia, it's just such a narrow How do I explain this? How does this, how is this relevant? You know, all these journal articles and this really esoteric, granular research on some little itty, itty bitty thing. And I just really struggled. But then I said, So I met with someone I remember, and she she said, Laura, it's like a car. When you buy a car, you can choose your own car seats and color, and you know, the bells and whistles of your car, and you can do that for the doctorate. And I said, Okay, I'm going to make the doctorate mine, and I'm going to specialize in a topic that I can see being a topic that the world of work will face in the future. So I specialized in remote leadership, and how you lead a team when they're not working in the same office, and how you lead and inspire people who are working from home. And that whole notion of distributed work, which ended up becoming a hot topic in the pandemic. I was, I was 20 years, 15 years ahead of the game. Yeah. Well, that,   Michael Hingson ** 19:09 of course, brings up the question of the whole issue of remote work and stuff during the pandemic and afterward. What do you what do you think has been the benefit of the whole concept of remote work. What did people learn because of the pandemic, and are they forgetting it, or are they still remembering it and allowing people to to work at home? And I ask that because I know in this country, our illustrious president is demanding that everybody go back to work, and a lot of companies are buying into that as well. And my thought has always been, why should we worry about where a person works, whether it's remote or in an actual office, so long as they get the work? Done, but that seems to, politically not be the way what people want to think of it today.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 20:06 Yeah, it's, I mean, I have a lot to say on it, and I have years and years of data and research that supports the notion that it's not a one size fits all, and a blend tends to be the best answer. So if you want to preserve the culture and the collaboration, but yet you want to have people have the flexibility and autonomy and such, which is the best of both worlds. Because you're running a workplace, you're not running a daycare where you need to babysit people, and if you need to babysit people, you're hiring the wrong people. So I would say I'm a biggest fan of hybrid. I think remote works in some context, I think bringing everyone back full time to an office is very, very old school command and control, leadership, old school command and control will not work. You know, when you're trying to retain talent, when it's an employer's market, yes, you'll get away with it. But when it goes back to an employee's market. Watch out, because your generation Z's are going to be leaving in droves to the companies that offer flexibility and autonomy, same with some of your millennials, for sure, and even my generation X. I mean, we really value, you know, a lot of us want to have hybrids and want to be trusted and not be in a car for 10 to 20 hours a week commuting? Yeah? So,   Michael Hingson ** 21:27 yeah, I know I hear you, and from the baby boomer era, you know, I I think there's value in being in an office that is, I think that having time to interact and know colleagues and so on is important. But that doesn't mean that you have to do it every day, all day. I know many times well. I worked for a company for eight years. The last year was in New York because they wanted me to go to New York City and open an office for them, but I went to the office every day, and I was actually the first person in the office, because I was selling to the east coast from the west coast. So I opened the office and was on the phone by 6am in the morning, Pacific Time, and I know that I got so much more done in the first two to three hours, while everyone else was slowly filtering in, and then we got diverted by one thing or another, and people would gossip and so on. Although I still tried to do a lot of work, nevertheless, it got to be a little bit more of a challenge to get as much done, because now everybody was in and they wanted to visit, or whatever the case happens to be, and I think there's value in visiting, but I think from a working standpoint, if I'd been able to do that at home, at least part of the time, probably even more would have been accomplished. But I think there's value also in spending some time in the office, because people do need to learn to interact and know and trust each other, and you're not going to learn to trust if you don't get to know the other people.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 23:08 Yeah, totally. I agree with you 100% and I know from it. I on my own podcast I had the founder of four day work week global, the four day work movement. I did four episodes on that topic, and yeah, people are not productive eight hours a day. I'll tell you that. Yeah, yeah. So just because you're bringing them into an office and forcing them to come in, you're not gonna it doesn't necessarily mean more productivity. There's so much that goes into productivity, apart from presenteeism, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 23:45 yeah, I hear what you're saying, and I think there's, there's merit in that. I think that even when you're working at home, there are rules, and there you're still expected to do work, but there's, I think, room for both. And I think that the pandemic taught us that, but I'm wondering if we're forgetting it.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 24:06 Oh yeah, that's the human condition. We forget, right? We, we forget. We it's almost I envision an icy ski slope. I'm a skier, you know, being up here in Canada and the Rocky Mountains, but it's a ski slope, and you walk up a few steps, and then you slide back so easily, because it's icy, right? Like you gotta just be aware that we slide back easily. We need to be intentional and stay on top of the why behind certain decisions, because the pendulum swings back so far so easily. And I mean, women's issues are one of those things we can slide back so quickly. After like, 100 years of women fighting for their rights, we can end up losing that very, very quickly in society. That's just one of many examples I know all the D, E and I stuff that's going on, and I. I mean, it's just heartbreaking, the extent of that pendulum slapping back the other way, so hard when we need to have a balance, and you know, the right balance, because the answer is never black and white, black or white, the answer is always some shade of gray.   Michael Hingson ** 25:20 How do we get people to not backslide? And I know that's a really tough question, and maybe there's no there, there very well may not really be an easy answer to that, but I'm just curious what your thoughts are.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 25:37 That's a great question. Michael, I would envision almost ski poles or hiking poles. It's being grounded into the earth. It's being grounded into what are the roots of my values? What are my the values that we hold dear as human beings and as society, and sticking to those values, and, you know, pushing in to the earth to hold those values and stand up for those values, which I know is easier said than done in certain climates and certain contexts. And I mean, but I think it's really important to stand strong for what our values   Michael Hingson ** 26:20 are, yeah, I think that's really it. It comes down to values and principles. I know the late president, Jimmy Carter once said that we must adjust to changing times while holding to unwavering principles. And it seems to me you were talking about this being a tricky world. I thought that was an interesting way to express it. But I'm wondering if we're seeing all too many people not even holding to the unwavering principles, the sacrificing principles for political expediency and other things, yeah,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 26:53 yes, exactly. And we know about values that sometimes values clash, right? So you might have a value that you want to have a lot of money and be financially, you know, successful, yet you have the value of work life balance and you want a lot of time off and and sometimes those values can clash, and sometimes we need to make decisions in our lives about what value takes precedence at this time in our life. But I think what you're right is that there's a lot of fear out there right now, and when the fear happens, you can lose sight of why those values are important to you for more of a shorter term, quick gain to get rid of the fear, because fear is uncertain and painful for humans.   Michael Hingson ** 27:44 Well, I wrote live like a guide dog, which is the latest book that was, that was published in August of last year, and it's all about learning to control fear, really. And the reality is, and what I say in the book, essentially is, look, fear is with us. I'm not going to say you shouldn't be afraid and that you can live without fear, but what you can do is learn to control fear, and you have the choice of learning how you deal with fear and what you allow fear to do to you. And so, for example, in my case, on September 11, that fear was a very powerful tool to help keep me focused going down the stairs and dealing with the whole day. And I think that's really the the issue is that fear is is something that that all too many people just have, and they let it overwhelm them, or, as I put it, blind them, and the result of that is that they can't make decisions, they can't move on. And so many things are happening in our world today that are fomenting that fear, and we're not learning how to deal with it, which is so unfortunate.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 29:02 Yeah, you're right. And I back to your World Trade Center. So you were on, was it 778? 78 oh, my god, yeah. So to me, that must have been the scariest moment of your life.   Michael Hingson ** 29:17 I'm missing in a in a sense, no only until later, because none of us knew what was happening when the plane hit the building, which it did on the other side of the building from me and 1000s of others, and it hit above where we were. So going down the stairs, none of us knew what happened, because nobody saw it. And as I point out, Superman and X ray vision are fiction. So the reality is, it had nothing to do with blindness. The fact is, none of us knew going down the stairs. We figured out a plane hit the building because we smelled something that I eventually identified as burning jet fuel fumes, because I smell it every time I went to an airport. But we didn't know what happened. And. And and in a sense, that probably was a good thing for most people. Frankly, I would rather have known, and I can, I can say this, thinking about it a lot as I do, I would rather have known what happened, because it would have affected perhaps some of the decisions that I made later. If I had known that the buildings had been struck and there was a likelihood that they would collapse. I also know that I wouldn't have panicked, but I like information, and it's something that I use as a tool. But the fact is that we didn't know that. And so in a sense, although we were certainly worried about what was going on, and we knew that there was fire above us, we didn't know what it was all about.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 30:41 Wow. And I would say, so glad you got out of there. I Yeah, what a horrific experience. I was up there the year before it happened. And I think being up there, you can just sense the the height of it and the extent of it, and then seeing ground zero after and then going there with my son last June and seeing the new world trade, it was just really, I really resonate with your or not resonate, but admire your experience that you got out of there the way you did, and thank goodness you're still in this world. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 31:17 it's a weird experience having been back, also now, going through the museum and being up in the new tower, trying to equate where I was on September 11 and where things were with what it became when it was all rebuilt. There's no easy reference point, although I did some of the traveling around the area with someone who knew what the World Trade Center was like before September 11. And so they were able to say, Okay, you're standing in such and such a place, so you're standing right below where Tower One was. And then I could kind of put some reference points to it, but it was totally different. Needless to say,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 32:05 Yeah, no kidding, but I think the fear that you go through during a disaster, right, is immediate like so the fight flight response is activated immediately, and you're, you're put into this almost state of flow. I call it a state where you time just is irrelevant. You're just putting one foot ahead of the other, right, right, right? Whereas the fear that society is going through right now, I think, is a projecting out into the future fear. It's not surviving this moment. It's more about I want to make sure I have enough money in the future, and I want to make sure I have safety in the future, or whatever it is, and you're projecting out, and you're living in the future, and you're worrying about the future, you're not living in the present, and it makes people kind of go crazy in the end, with anxiety, because we're not meant to be constantly worried about the Future. The only thing we can control is today and what we put into place for a better tomorrow, but fearing tomorrow and living in anxiety is so unhealthy for the human spirit,   Michael Hingson ** 33:13 and yet that's what people do, and it's one of the things we talk about and live like a guide dog. Worry about what you can control and don't worry about the rest. And you know, we spend so much time dealing with what if, what if this happens? What if that happens? And all that does, really is create fear in us, rather than us learning, okay, I don't really have control over that. I can be worried about the amount of money I have, but the real question is, what am I going to do about it today? And I know one of the lessons I really learned from my wife, Karen, we had some times when when we had significant debt for a variety of reasons, but like over the last few years of her life, we had enough of an income from speaking and the other things that I was doing that she worked really hard to pay down credit card bills that we had. And when she passed, most all of that was accomplished, and I was, I don't know whether she thought about it. She probably did, although she never got to the point of being able to deal with it, but one of the things that I quickly did was set up with every credit card company that we use paying off each bill each month, so we don't accrue credit, and so every credit card gets paid off, because now the expenses are pretty predictable, and so we won't be in that situation as long as I continue to allow things to get paid off every month and things like that. But she was the one that that put all that in motion, and it was something she took very, very seriously, trying to make sure. It. She brought everything down. She didn't really worry so much about the future. Is, what can I do today? And what is it that my goal is? Well, my goal is to get the cards paid off. I can do this much today and the next month. I can do this much today, which, which I thought was a great way and a very positive way to look at it. She was very methodical, but she wasn't panicky.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 35:24 Mm, hmm. No, I like that, because panic gets us nowhere. It just It ruins today and it doesn't help tomorrow, right? Same with regret, regret you can't undo yesterday, and living in regret, guilt, living in the past is just an unhealthy place to be as well, unless we're just taking the learnings and the nuggets from the past. That's the only reason we need the past is to learn from it. You   Michael Hingson ** 35:52 have to learn from it and then let it go, because it's not going to do any good to continue to dwell on it.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 35:57 Yeah, exactly.   Michael Hingson ** 36:00 Well, so you, you, you see so many things happening in this world. How do we deal with all of it, with all the trickiness and things that you're talking about?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 36:10 Do you like that word, tricky? I like it. That's a weird word.   Michael Hingson ** 36:14 Well, I think it's, it's a different word, but I like it, it, it's a word that I think, personally, becomes non confrontive, but accurate in its descriptions. It is tricky, but, you know, we can, we can describe things in so many ways, but it's better to do it in a way that isn't judgmental, because that evokes attitudes that we don't need to have.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 36:38 Yeah, if I use the word scary or terrible, or, I think those words are, yeah, just more anxiety provoking. Tricky can be tricky. Can be bad, tricky can be a challenge,   Michael Hingson ** 36:52 right? Like a puppy, unpredictable, or, you know, so many things, but it isn't, it isn't such a bad thing. I like that.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 37:03 How do we navigate a tricky world? Well, we we need to focus on today. We need to focus on the things that we can control today, physically, mentally, emotionally, socially and spiritually, the five different arenas of our life and on any given day, we need to be paying attention to those arenas of our life and how are they doing. Are we healthy physically? Are we getting around and moving our bodies? Are we listening to our bodies and our bodies needs? Are we putting food into our bodies, and are we watching what we drink and consume that could be harming our bodies, and how does it make us feel? And are we getting enough sleep? I think sleep is a huge issue for a lot of people in these anxiety provoking times.   Michael Hingson ** 37:56 Well, I think, I think that's very accurate. The question is, how do we learn to do that? How do we teach ourselves?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 38:07 How do we learn to do all that   Michael Hingson ** 38:09 stuff? How do we how do we learn to deal with the things that come up, rather than letting them all threaten us and scare us?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 38:20 Oh, that's a big question. I think that well, the whole the five spheres, right? So if you're taking care of your physical health and you're making that a priority, and some people really struggle with that, and they need a buddy system, or they need professional helpers, right, like a coach or a trainer or a psychologist like me, or whatever it is that they need the extra supports in place, but the physical super important, the making sure that we are socially healthy and connectedness is more important than ever. Feeling connected to our tribe, whatever that is, our close friends. You know, whether we have family that we would consider friends, right? Who in our team is helpful to us and trusted allies, and if we can have the fingers of one hand with close people that we trust in our lives, that's that's great, right? It doesn't have to be 100 people, right? It can be a handful, over your lifetime of true allies to walk through this world together.   Michael Hingson ** 39:26 One of the things that I've talked about it a bit on this podcast, but I I love the the concept that I think I've come up with is I used to always say I'm my own worst critic, and I said that because I love to record, and I learned the value of recording speeches, even going back to when I worked at campus radio station at kuci in Irvine campus radio station, I would listen to my show, and I kind of forced all the On Air personalities. 90s to listen to their own shows by arranging for their shows to be recorded, because they wouldn't do it themselves. And then I sent recordings home with them and said, You've got to listen to this. You will be better for it. And they resisted it and resisted it, but when they did it, it was amazing how much they improved. But I as I recorded my talks, becoming a public speaker, and working through it, I kept saying, I record them because I'm my own worst critic. I'm going to pick on me harder than anyone else can. And it was only in the last couple of years because I heard a comment in something that I that I read actually, that said the only person who can really teach you anything is you. Other people can present information, they can give you data, but you are really the only one who can truly teach you. And I realized that it was better to say I'm my own best teacher than my own worst critic, because it changes the whole direction of my thought, but it also drops a lot of the fear of listening or doing the thing that I was my own worst critic   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 41:10 about. I love that, Michael. I think that's genius. I'm my own best teacher, not my own worst critic,   Michael Hingson ** 41:19 right? It's it's positive, it's also true, and it puts a whole different spin on it, because one of the things that we talk about and live like a guide dog a lot is that ultimately, and all the things that you say are very true, but ultimately, each of us has to take the time to synthesize and think about the challenges that we face, the problems that we faced. What happened today that didn't work well, and I don't use the word fail, because I think that also doesn't help the process. But rather, we expected something to happen. It didn't. It didn't go well. What do we do about it? And that ultimately, taking time at the end of every day, for example, to do self analysis helps a lot, and the result of that is that we learn, and we learn to listen to our own inner mind to help us with that   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 42:17 exactly, I think that self insight is missing in a lot of us, we're not taking the time to be still and to listen to the voice within and to listen to what we are thinking and feeling internally, because we're go, go, go, go, go, and then when we're sitting still, you know what we're doing, we're on our phones,   Michael Hingson ** 42:41 and That's why I say at the end of the day, when you're getting ready, you're in bed, you're falling asleep. Take the time. It doesn't take a long time to get your mind going down that road. And then, of course, a lot happens when you're asleep, because you think about it   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 43:01 exactly. And you know, I've got to say, however spirituality is defined, I think that that is a key element in conquering this level of anxiety in society. The anxiety in society needs to be conquered by a feeling of greater meaning and purpose and connectedness in the human race, because we're all one race, the human race, in the end of the day, and all these divisions and silos and what's happening with our great you know, next door neighbors to each other, the US and Canada. It's the way that Canada is being treated is not not good. It's not the way you would treat a neighbor and a beloved neighbor that's there for you. In the end of the day, there's fires in California. We're sending our best fire crews over. You know, World War One, where my grandpa thought and Vimy Ridge, Americans were struggling. British could not take Vimy. It was the Canadians that came and, you know, got Vimy and conquered the horrific situation there. But in the end, we're all allies, and we're all in it together. And it's a tricky, tricky world,   Michael Hingson ** 44:11 yeah, and it goes both ways. I mean, there's so many ways the United States has also helped. So you're not, yeah, you're not really in favor of Canada being the 51st state, huh?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 44:26 You know, no, yeah, I love America. I mean, I have a lot of great friends in America and people I adore, but I think Canada is its own unique entity, and the US has been a great ally in a lot of ways, and we're in it together, right, right? I mean, really in it together, and we need to stay as allies. And as soon as you start putting up a fence and throwing rocks over the fence to each other, it just creates such a feud and an unnecessary feud, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 44:55 Well, very much so. And it is so unfortunate to see. It happening. And as you said, I think you put it very well. It's all about we're friends and friends. Don't treat friends in this way. But that is, that is, unfortunately, what we're seeing. I know I've been looking, and I constantly look for speaking opportunities, home, and I've sent emails to some places in Canada, and a few people have been honest enough to say, you know, we love what you do. We love your story. But right now, with what's going on between the United States and Canada, we wouldn't dare bring you to Canada, and while perhaps I could help by speaking and easing some of that a little bit. I also appreciate what they're saying, and I've said that to them and say, I understand, but this too shall pass. And so please, let's stay in touch, but I understand. And you know, that's all one can do.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 46:01 Yeah, and it, it too shall pass. I mean, it's just all and then anxiety takes over and it gets in the way of logic. Michael Hingston would, hingson would be our best speaker for this option, but the optics of it might get us into trouble, and they just get all wound up about it. And I you know, in the end of the day this, this will pass, but it's very difficult time, and we need to say, Okay, we can't control what's going to happen with tariffs or next month or whatever, but we can control today. And, yeah, I just went on a walk by the river. It was beautiful, and it was just so fulfilling to my soul to be outside. And that's what I could control the day   Michael Hingson ** 46:41 that's right? And that walk by the river and that being outside and having a little bit of time to reflect has to help reduce fear and stress.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 46:54 It does it very much, does   Michael Hingson ** 46:58 and and isn't that something that that more people should do, even if you're working in the office all day, it would seem like it would be helpful for people to take at least some time to step away mentally and relax, which would help drop some of the fear and the stress that they face. Anyway,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 47:20 100% and I am at my office downtown today, and I can see the river right now from my window. And there's research evidence that when you can see water flowing and you can see trees, it really makes a difference to your mental health. So this office is very intentional for me, having the windows having the bright light very intentional.   Michael Hingson ** 47:44 I have a recording that I listen to every day for about 15 minutes, and it includes ocean sounds, and that is so soothing and just helps put so many things in perspective. Now it's not quite the same as sitting at the ocean and hearing the ocean sounds, but it's close enough that it works.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 48:06 That's beautiful. And you're going to come on to my podcast and we're going to talk a lot more about your story, and that'll be really great.   Michael Hingson ** 48:14 We're doing that in May.   48:16 Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 48:17 absolutely, and I'm looking forward to it. Well, how did you get involved in doing a podcast? What got you started down that road? Oh, your tricky podcast. Yeah.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 48:32 So I was running my company. So I have a company of psychologists in Canada, and we operate across the country, and we do two things really, really well. One is helping people navigate their careers at all ages and stages and make find fulfilling career directions. And then our other thing we do well is helping organizations, helping be healthier places to work, so building better leaders, helping create better cultures in organizations. So that's what we do, and we have. I've been running that for 16 years so my own firm, and at the same time, I always wanted a podcast, and it was 2020, and I said, Okay, I'm turning 45 years old. For my birthday gift to myself, I'm going to start a podcast. And I said, Does anyone else on the team want to co host, and we'll share the responsibilities of it, and we could even alternate hosting. No, no, no, no, no, no one else was interested, which is fine, I was interested. So I said, this is going to be, Dr Laura, then this podcast, I'm going to call it. Dr Laura, where work meets life. So the podcast is where work meets life, and then I'm Dr Laura, Canada's. Dr Laura,   Michael Hingson ** 49:41 yeah, I was gonna say there we've got lots of dr, Laura's at least two not to be   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 49:44 mixed up with your radio. One not to be mixed up completely different, right, in approach and style and values. And so I took on that started the podcast as the labor of love, and said, I'm going to talk about three. Three things, helping people thrive in their careers, helping people thrive in their lives, and helping organizations to thrive. And then, oh yeah, I'll throw in some episodes around advocating for a better world. And then the feedback I got was that's a lot of lanes to be in, Laura, right? That is a lot of lanes. And I said, Yeah, but the commonality is the intersection of work and life, and I want to have enough variety that it's stuff that I'm genuinely curious to learn, and it's guests that I'm curious to learn from, as well as my own musings on certain topics. And so that's what's happened. So it's it's 111 episodes in I just recorded 111 that's cool, yeah. So it's every two weeks, so it's not as often as some podcasts, but every episode is full of golden nuggets and wisdom, and it's been a journey and a labor of love. And I do it for the joy of it. I don't do it as a, you know, it's not really a business thing. It's led to great connections. But I don't do it to make money, and, in fact, it costs me money, but I do it to make a difference in the tricky world,   Michael Hingson ** 51:11 right? Well, but at the same time, you get to learn a lot. You get to meet people, and that's really what it's all about anyway.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 51:21 Oh, I've met some incredible people like you through doing it, Michael and like my mentor, Sy Wakeman, who wrote the book no ego that's behind me in my office, and who's just a prolific speaker and researcher on drama and ego in the workplace. And you know, I've, I've met gurus from around the world on different topics. It's been fabulous,   Michael Hingson ** 51:47 and that is so cool. Well, and you, you've written some books. Tell us about your books, and by the way, by the way, I would appreciate it if you would email me photos of book covers, because I want to put those in the show notes.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 52:03 Oh, okay, I'm going to start with my current book that it actually, I just submitted my manuscript the other day, and it's, it's about toxic bosses, and how we can navigate and exit and recover from a toxic boss. And I saw this as a huge problem in the last couple of years, across different workplaces, across different people, almost everyone I met either had experienced it or had a loved one experience a toxic boss. And so I said, What is a toxic boss? First of all, how is this defined, and what does the research say? Because I'm always looking at, well, what the research says? And wait a minute, there's not a lot of research in North America. I'm an adjunct professor of psychology. I have a team of students. I can do research on this. I'm going to get to the bottom of toxic bosses post pandemic. What? What are toxic bosses? What are the damage they're inflicting on people, how do they come across, and what do we do about it? And then, how do we heal and recover? Because it's a form of trauma. So that's what I've been heavily immersed in, heavily immersed in. And the book is going to really help a lot of humans. It really is. So that's my passion right now is that book and getting it out into the world in January 2026, it's going to be   Michael Hingson ** 53:27 published. What's it called? Do you have a title   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 53:30 yet? I do, but I'm not really okay title officially yet, because it's just being with my publisher and editor, and I just don't want to say it until actually, Michael, I have the cover so it's going through cover design. I have a US publisher, and it's going through cover design, and that's so important to me, the visual of this, and then I'll share the I'll do a cover reveal. Good for you, yeah, and this is important to me, and I think it's timely, and I really differentiate what's a difficult boss versus a toxic boss, because there's a lot of difficult bosses, but I don't want to mix up difficult from toxic, because I think we need to understand the difference, and we need to help difficult bosses become better. We need to help toxic bosses not to do their damage and organizations to deal with them. And it's just there's so many different legs to this project. I'll be doing it for years.   Michael Hingson ** 54:24 So what's the difference between difficult and toxic? Or can you talk about that?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 54:29 Yeah, I can talk about, I mean, some of the differences difficult bosses are frustrating, annoying. They can be poor communicators, bad delegators. They can even micromanage sometimes, and micromanagement is a common thing in new leaders, common issue. But the difference is that they the difficult boss doesn't cause psychological harm to you. They don't cause psychological and physical harm to you. They're not. Malicious in their intent. They're just kind of bumbling, right? They're just bumbling unintentionally. It's unintentional. The toxic boss is manipulative, dishonest, narcissistic. They can gaslight, they can abuse, they can harass, all these things that are intentional. Negative energy that inflicts psychological and or physical harm.   Michael Hingson ** 55:27 And I suspect you would say their actions are deliberate for the most part, for the most part, at   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 55:35 least, yeah. And that's a whole Yeah, yeah. I would say whether they're deliberate or not, it's the impact that matters. And the impact is deep psychological hurt and pain, which is, and we know the Psych and the body are related, and it often turns into physical. So my research participants, you know, lots of issues. There's there's research. Cardiovascular is impacted by toxic bosses. Your mental health is your your heart rate, your your digestion, your gut. I mean, all of it's connected. When you have a toxic Boss,   Michael Hingson ** 56:09 what usually creates a toxic boss? It has to come from somewhere   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 56:18 that stems back to childhood. Typically got it. And we get into a whole you know about childhood trauma, right? Big T trauma and little T trauma. Little T trauma are almost death by 1000 paper cuts. It's all the little traumas that you know you you went through, if they're unaddressed, if they're unaddressed, big T trauma is you were sexually assaulted, or you were physically abused, or you went through a war and you had to escape the war torn country, or those sorts of things I call big T and I've learned this from other researchers. Little Ts are like this. You know, maybe microaggressions, maybe being teased, maybe being you know, these things that add up over time and affect your self confidence. And if you don't deal with the little Ts, they can cause harm in adulthood as well. And so that's what, depending on what went on earlier, whether you dealt with that or not, can make you come across into adulthood as a narcissist, for example,   Michael Hingson ** 57:21 right? Well, you've written some other books also, haven't   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 57:25 you? Oh, yeah, so let's cheer this conversation up. I wrote two psychological thrillers. I am mad. I have an active imagination. I thought, what if someone got kidnapped by a billionaire, multi billionaire ex boyfriend who was your high school sweetheart, but it was 10 years later, and they created a perfect life for you, a perfect life for you, in a perfect world for you. What would that be like? So it's all about navigating that situation. So I have a strong female protagonist, so it's called losing cadence. And then I wrote a sequel, because my readers loved it so much, and it ended on a Hollywood cliffhanger. So then I wrote the sequel that takes place 12 years later, and I have a producing partner in in Hollywood, and we're pitching it for a TV series filmed as a three season, three seasons of episodes, and potentially more, because it's a really interesting story that has you at the edge of your seat at every episode.   Michael Hingson ** 58:28 Have those books been converted to audio? Also?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 58:33 No, no, I never converted them to audio. But I should. I should.   Michael Hingson ** 58:37 You should, you should. Did you publish them? Or did you have a publisher? I   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 58:41 published these ones. Yeah, a decade ago, a decade ago,   Michael Hingson ** 58:45 it has gotten easier, apparently, to make books available on Audible, whether you read them or you get somebody else to do it, the process isn't what it used to be. So might be something to look at. That'd be kind of fun.   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 59:00 I think so. And I'll be doing that for my toxic boss book. Anyway, Michael, so I'm going to learn the ropes, and then I could do it for losing cadence and finding Sophie,   Michael Hingson ** 59:09 you'd find probably a lot of interested people who would love to have them in audio, because people running around, jogging and all that, love to listen to things, and they listen to podcasts, yours and mine. But I think also audio books are one way that people get entertained when they're doing other things. So yeah, I advocate for it. And of course, all of us who are blind would love it as well. Of   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 59:34 course, of course, I just it's on my mind. It's and I'm going to manifest doing that at some point.   Michael Hingson ** 59:41 Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely a heck of a lot of fun, and we'll have to do it again. We'll do it in May, and we may just have to have a second episode going forward. We'll see how it goes. But I'm looking forward to being on the your podcast in May, and definitely send me a. The book covers for the the two books that you have out, because I'd like to make sure that we put those in the show notes for the podcast. But if people want to reach out to you, learn more about you, maybe learn what you do and see how you can work with them. How do they do that?   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 1:00:14 Sure, that's a great question. So triple w.dr, Laura all is one word, D R, L, A, u, r, a, dot live. So Dr, Laura dot live is my website, and then you'll find where work meets life on all the podcast platforms. You'll find me a lot on LinkedIn as Dr Laura Hambley, love it, so I love LinkedIn, but I'm also on all the platforms, and I just love connecting with people. I share a lot of videos and audio and articles, and I'm always producing things that I think will help people and help organizations.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:52 Well, cool. Well, I hope people will reach out. And speaking of reaching out, I'd love to hear what you all think of our episode today. So please feel free to email me at Michael H I M, I C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S i b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast and Michael hingson is m, I C H, A, E, L, H i N, G, s o n.com/podcast, wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value that. If you don't give us a five star rating, I won't tell Alamo, my guy dog, and so you'll be safe. But we really do appreciate you giving us great ratings. We'd love to hear your thoughts. If any of you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on our podcast, or if you want to be a guest, and of course, Laura, if you know some folks, we are always looking for more people to come on unstoppable mindset. So please feel free to let me know about that. Introduce us. We're always looking for more people and more interesting stories to tell. So we hope that that you'll do that. But I want to thank but I want to thank you again for coming on today. This has been fun,   Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett ** 1:02:07 definitely, and I really admire you, Michael, and I can't wait to have you on where work meets life.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:02:18 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

I have known Skip Vaccarello for more than 12 years. When we first met both Skip and I lived in Northern California. Neither of us seem to remember the event at which we met, but we both discovered that we were people of faith. Over the years we lost touch until early January 2025 when I received a bulk email from Skip and reached out to see if we could get him to come on Unstoppable Mindset. He accepted and today's episode is the result.   Skip has over 40 years of experience leading Silicon Valley high tech companies. One of his first efforts was leading VisiCorp, the creator of the industry's first pc-based spreadsheet VisiCalc. What? You never heard of VisiCalc? Look it up. VisiCalc was one of those products that revolutionized so many endeavors.   In addition to leading and working with many Silicon Valley ventures Skip is a man of faith with a deep belief in Christianity. We talk about Skip's fait journey and why he believes faith makes a big difference in the lives of so many people especially in the high-tech world of Silicon Valley.   We talk a bit about Skip's retirement years and what he would advise anyone when they ask him about retirement. His answer may well surprise you, but his response is spot on and quite thought provoking.   I believe you will find Skip's insights fascinating and well worth the listen.       About the Guest:   Skip offers podcasts on faith and business topics at SkipVaccarello.com, and is a Partner with 1Flourish Capital, a venture firm investing in technology-based start-up companies led by entrepreneurs of character who understand that corporate culture is vital to success. He is also the author of Finding God in Silicon Valley:  Spiritual Journeys in a High-Tech World. From 2005 through 2021, Skip led  Connect Silicon Valley, a non-profit organization offering speaking events featuring high-profile leaders encouraging conversations about faith and life. In addition, he has served on corporate and non-profit boards and speaks at various organizations on leadership and organizational health.   Skip has over 40 years of experience in leadership positions for Silicon Valley technology companies, including VisiCorp, the provider of VisiCalc, the industry's first spreadsheet. In addition, he served as President and CEO of Applied Weather Technology, a global company providing software and services to the maritime industry. His other experience includes CEO of Communications Solutions, Inc., a communications software company; division general manager of 3Com, a networking product and solutions company; and co-founder and CEO of The Saratoga Group, an Internet-based training company. In addition, Skip has served as an executive coach, a merger and acquisition consultant, and for three years, taught a course on Principled Leadership and Ethics as an Adjunct Professor in the MBA program at William Jessup University.   He earned an A.B. with honors in economics from Harvard College and an MBA with honors from the Boston University School of Management. Skip has been married for over 44 years and has two daughters and six grandchildren. Skip and his wife reside in Bristol, NH and have a home in Chapel Hill, NC. Ways to connect Skip:   Website, Skip Vaccarello -- https://skipvaccarello.com/ Podcasts -- https://skipvaccarello.com/podcasts/ Podcasts on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@skipvaccarello Podcasts on Apple:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/who-do-you-want-to-become/id1737471615 LinkedIn -- https://www.linkedin.com/in/skip-vaccarello-50114/ Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/skipvaccarello Book (Amazon) -- https://www.amazon.com/Finding-Silicon-Valley-Spiritual-Journeys-High-Tech/dp/0996371923/ref=sr_1_1?crid=CYTLPJWTA4EA&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.XlOGN69ci4cxDNHGjoi-JuD6ISwr4bFCY65xSabhw59got9YrjbPWyBlSgWLjuFi6IlTA5ZOM3PI6YIg7LMkVFA3-yicQ-VXc1rBHHgDi3xyo7FeIiH80ZEm9FOEUglAwOtKx3OhnXkJc3uSq4YGINJzgGTpHsoyAA1-awAGK0-BdSo8l8c9KgO7rkwwqftSaRDi9H2bQjMrgMvEHYQcjq7cHTZn0cthcSjrexplqk4.IyefTEA2Au7cl-nPpjb6_CBqiRn5kgQnZ-eUCT4qJWE&dib_tag=se&keywords=finding+god+in+silicon+valley&qid=1737478219&sprefix=finding+God+in+sil%2Caps%2C104&sr=8-1   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today is a fun day for me, because I get to talk with a gentleman who I met many years ago. His name is Skip, Vaccarello and Skip and I we were just trying to remember where we met. It was at some event in San Francisco, and I am now not remembering what it was, but anyway, we met and got to know each other pretty well, and we've talked over the years about faith in God and a variety of things like that. Skip wrote a book entitled finding God in Silicon Valley. We'll have to talk about that. Skip, because Ray Kurzweil keeps talking about the fact that at some point the singularity is going to hit and we're going to marry computer chips in people's brains. I'm not convinced about that. I'm not sure, but Skip, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Well,   Skip Vaccarello ** 02:16 Michael, it's such a pleasure to be with you, and I'm glad that we were able to make the acquaintance again after many years. Thank you. Thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 02:24 And now you're not in California anymore. You're back in New Hampshire.   Skip Vaccarello ** 02:28 No. Oh, well, I split my time between New Hampshire and North Carolina. Yeah, yeah. So I'm in North Carolina now. We were in I lived in Silicon Valley for 42 years, I think, is what it was, and but we moved grandchildren left, or my daughters and grandchildren left, one to the state of Washington and one to North Carolina. So we decided to go to go to North Carolina. So we live in Chapel Hill, North Carolina and and a lake in New Hampshire. What lake? It's called newfound lake. It's close to Lake Winnipesaukee. It's less lesser known than some of those. Yeah, we've had a house there for many years, and love it.   Michael Hingson ** 03:06 I spent time in and around Lake wind and Pesach. That was a lot of fun.   Skip Vaccarello ** 03:10 Oh, yeah, yeah, the lakes are just beautiful, crystal clear water and and it's a real, real nice area. I had   Michael Hingson ** 03:17 a friend who had a summer home on an island out in the middle of Lake Winnipesaukee. And I remember that when we first went there, you had to go out to the to the home by boat. And it was so nice, because at night time there was absolutely no sound. It was so quiet. I loved it. Yeah,   Skip Vaccarello ** 03:35 yeah. In the sky was you probably could see all the stars in the sky too. I would imagine,   Michael Hingson ** 03:39 oh yeah, I'm sure, yeah.   Skip Vaccarello ** 03:43 But beautiful, beautiful place, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 03:46 I'd love to get back there. At some point, we'll have to do that and and go visit it. Well, tell us, tell us a little bit about the early skip, growing up and all that sort of stuff, if you would, sure.   Skip Vaccarello ** 03:57 Well, I grew up in the in the Boston area. You probably, people will probably detect a little bit of my Boston accents, a little bit. So I grew up there. I grew up, grew up just outside of Boston. And where did you grow up? I grew up in Waltham. Was the time in Waltham, okay, grew up in Waltham, and I went to school there. I went to undergraduate school at Harvard and graduate school at Boston University and, and you love, love the area. So that's, anyway, that's where I grew up. I was, we have family of there are four of us. I was the first boy, and pretty involved in sports and, you know, as a reasonable student. But enjoy the area. And it's, it's nice, you know, coming back when I have the chance, you know, going to New Hampshire, I still enjoy the city of Boston. It's a wonderful   Michael Hingson ** 04:42 city. Do you ever go by and visit the Harvard coop?   Skip Vaccarello ** 04:47 Oh yeah, oh yeah. And especially if I'm at a reunion, I'll go there and pick up some paraphernalia, that's for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 04:57 Well, I there was another place in. Are there that I like to go to, because I collect old records, cheapo records, and so I went there to got a lot of vinyl records and and things like that. I'm not sure if it's still around or not. I heard somewhere it wasn't, but then somebody else said it was still around.   Skip Vaccarello ** 05:13 Interesting. Your vinyl records? I mean, there are collectors item now,   Michael Hingson ** 05:16 oh yeah, well, I have a whole bunch here. So they're, they're fun.   Skip Vaccarello ** 05:23 Oh yeah, yeah. Well, I remember collecting some as a kid, but if you have some, you're probably worth a lot of money. Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 05:30 I do. I even have a few. I bought duplicates of and they're still sealed. So they're probably worth, they probably are. They're definitely worth something, absolutely well, so you went to Harvard and all that. And then what did you do?   Skip Vaccarello ** 05:44 Well for my career? Yeah, I went, I went to Harvard. I was there in the in the late 60s and early 70s. And your listeners may recall from history that was a time of real turmoil. Oh, yeah, yeah. The war in Vietnam was going on. 1968 was sort of a pivotal year that there was a war in Vietnam. There were racial riots in the city. There was the rise of feminism. You know, drugs were rampant on the college campuses, so I went to school in the midst of that, and I'll have to say it really was not a fun time to be in school, although I made good friends, and we've maintained the friendship for for quite a long time, but, but anyway, so I was there, and when I graduated, I really wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And it was, it was interesting, because there had been a study done of my class at Harvard, and many people, you know, didn't know what to do. Some immediately went on to medical school or law school or something. But then there were a group of us that were, you know, just kind of wandering around and did various things. But anyway, I finally got my my first job. Well, one thing I should say is that I always felt an inclination for business, but business and capitalism at that time was, was kind of on the outs. It was bad words, bad word, bad word. But I kind of I enjoyed business anyway, I took a job. My first job was in a nonprofit organization helping mentally handicapped adults, and I was doing the sort of the business activities. And so I was doing what I want and doing something that I felt was socially useful. And I ended up staying in that that area for around seven years one of them was with a sort of a bigger organization. I ended up being the Assistant Executive Director. Then I was asked to start one, and I refer to her as my very first startup. We had taken over an old school building and renovated it and and began a program for these for the mentally handicapped people. It was a lot of fun to do that. So I did that. And then what happened is we would get contract work to help employ people. And one of the pieces of work we got was from a software companies. This was in 1978 1979 and personal computers were just cut out then. I mean, there are games and nothing much very useful. But anyway, we got a little job to package some games. And some of your listeners may not, may not remember this. Michael, you probably do. But software then on personal computers came on audio cassettes. Hard to believe you'd have to load this cassette into the computer and run it so that. So we, we had the job of kind of packaging these with the manual. And the night is I got to know the founder of the company and one of the founders of the company. He showed something that was in the works, which was a spreadsheet that eventually became known as VisiCalc, the very first spreadsheet in the industry. And then he asked me to join him and the other co founder, who was from the Toronto area, and we moved to Silicon Valley. And during that time I was I was really ready to make a change. Wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but I was fascinated with personal computers. So went to Silicon Valley, and it was an amazing place. During the whole personal computer revolution, small industry, traveled around the country, you know, giving out, you know, demonstrating what a spreadsheet could do. And people were fascinated with that we had, I remember one day we had this sort of nerdy kid came into the office. It was Bill Gates. We had about five employees, and the whole industry was really small then, so it's fun to be part of that. And then for from there is sort of the what happens in in Silicon Valley and technology business, visit Corp was a really hot commodity, and then competition came in. They made some mistakes. They bought a company that specialized in network and communications, and I went over as the as the CEO and president of that we eventually spun it out as visit Corp eventually went out of business, but this little company we had, and we were successful and grew it, and in fact, sold that three different times, and, you know, continue to grow the company. And then I left that to have what I'd call my second startup, and this was to do computer based training to try to teach people. Of technical subjects on a computer, and that ended up morphing into one of the first e learning companies. So we did that, and that was that was a lot of fun, eventually sold that I did a little bit of executive coaching and mentoring. And one of the CEOs that I was mentoring asked me to join his organization, which was called applied weather technology. And I should say, I knew, in most cases, I really knew very little about the domain that I was going into, but I think pretty good business sense. So in this case, the company had software and services for the maritime industry, so we would help captains have the safest, most fuel efficient route to take around the world. So it was, it was really an interesting business. So I did that. I said I'd do it for a year. We ended up doing it for four years, and it was exciting and fun to be part of that. And they had a chance to travel around the world. We had offices around the world. So enjoyed that experience. And then then I left and to write the book that you mentioned finding God in Silicon Valley and and so anyway, that's what I ended up leaving that eventually got involved to help start a venture capital firm, a faith based venture capital firm called one flourish capital. So anyway, so that's a little bit of the background. There's a lot more I could talk about that, but that but that kind of gives your audience a little bit of an overview. I hadn't   Michael Hingson ** 11:26 thought about it for a while, but you mentioned the software back in 1979 80 and so on, all being put on audio cassettes. I remember the original Kurzweil Reading Machine for the blind used a Data General Nova three, so a small micro computer, well, kind of more like a mini computer, but it had a cassette recorder in the front of it, and every time you turn the reading machine on, you had to run the cassette to reload the Software, because there was no disk storage or anything available yet, right? And, okay, continue. I'm just saying so it was, it was kind of fun. It didn't take too long, and it and it really did work. I think once or twice there was some sort of a load error, and you had to start it over again. But really that didn't happen very often. It was, it was pretty good. Yeah,   Skip Vaccarello ** 12:22 it was really interesting. I just threw one sort of funny story we had. Remember, we had a product that was returned to us and we couldn't figure out what was wrong. I forget what it was. Was probably one of the games we had, the best selling game, which was called micro chest anyway, decided to just put it into a an audio player. So he put the cassette in, and what we heard was a sermon by, I think it was a Baptist preacher, and so, and it was labeled, I think it was labeled micro chess. So anyway, the duplicator had, had messed it up. And so this, this pastor probably got our little beeps and beeps instead of his instead of his sermon. So it was kind of it was kind of   Michael Hingson ** 13:07 comical. I remember once I took one of the program cassettes and put it in my cassette recorder because I was really curious to to hear what it sounded like. And I had heard military teletypes and so on in the past. And when I heard this, I went, Ah, those teletypes are really slow compared to the code speed on these cassettes. But it was, it was a lot of fun,   Skip Vaccarello ** 13:31 yeah. Well, it's fun for me to be involved in all the changes. Their changes was so rapid in Silicon Valley. So I really appreciated my opportunity to be involved in all of that for the 40 some odd years that I was,   Michael Hingson ** 13:46 well, yeah, and, and it, and it certainly was rewarding. You were pretty successful at it, and it all worked really, really worked out well. And so, you know, can't complain about that. What, what got you into the whole idea of doing more faith based things? Was that going back to childhood? Or how did all that come? Yeah,   Skip Vaccarello ** 14:10 I'll give you maybe a little bit of my my faith and story. So I grew up in a Christian home. We were I was raised as a Catholic, and as I said, when I went to college, though, there was all sorts of turmoil, and many of us rejected all sorts of things, including in faith. So it became and I can't say that I rejected it, but it just didn't. Wasn't very meaningful to me. I didn't think about it, I didn't pray, I didn't read the Bible. But if you were to ask me, I would have called myself a Christian, but certainly wasn't, wasn't practicing any of that. And then I when I was, I'm, this is maybe so that was that went on for about 15 years, or then I remember there was, we had, then children, a couple of children. And I remember I was in a business trip. I was in Paris, and I called home and I asked. My wife, Jackie, I said, Well, what did you do for the weekend? And she said, Well, I went to church. I said, You did what? That wasn't even in our conversation, and I was just so surprised that that's what she did. She said, Yeah, and she found it really helpful. And so anyway, when I came back, I followed her along and went to church. And I also found the messages really, meaningful. And anyway, I started to go, and then I decided this, I have to figure out if this stuff is really true or not. So I spent a fair amount of time, you know, listening to the sermons, but also looking at the evidence for Christian faith. And I became convinced that that Jesus is who He says He is. And so that at that point, I committed my, you know, my life to Him, and it became the most important thing in my life. And really, God, put two things on my heart once I made that and this was mid 80s by 1985 1986 two things on my heart. One was to do the best job I could, to try to live out my faith in business. And the second thing was to help people know who Jesus is. I was convinced that was this sort of the key to life, and so I enjoyed getting involved in in one on one conversations. And anyway, that ended up leading to starting with a group of people, what we eventually called the Silicon Valley prayer breakfast, and now it's called Connect Silicon Valley, feeling that, especially in Silicon Valley, you know, people may not go to go to a church. They may for a variety of reasons, you know, not want to even consider faith. But if there were a speaking event in which there was some celebrity, especially celebrities from the computer industry talking about their business, but also about their faith that might attract people. So that was the sort of the premise with which we started the Silicon Valley prayer breakfast, specifically for people who not were not necessarily your faith, but maybe curious about it. So we had series of great, great speakers. And it grew from, I think our first event was about 150 people, and in the last event, which I and then I the pandemic came, and we had about 1000 people at the at the last event. So it really grew. In fact, the people at there was one, it was at the Santa Clara Convention Center. They said it was the biggest event that they had at that time of the morning would start the event at 730 in the morning. So anyway, that's that was really helpful. And we and we just did that help open up conversations about faith and and it was, is, I think it was pretty successful doing that. So anyway, that was a little bit of of my background. And maybe one thing I didn't say, but I had this sense, you know, as I grew up, my family, we didn't have very much money, and but as I began to achieve some success and some financial success, I realized that it seemed like there was something missing in my life, and and later on, I learned, and I didn't know this at the time, Blaise Pascal called that a God shaped vacuum, or void that's in each one of us, and most people try to fill it with success or money or whatever else. But as Pascal says, and I agree, the only thing that can adequately fill that void is God. And I didn't know it, but that was ended up being, being true for me. I felt that there was that there was something missing, and life wasn't all about, you know, success and finances and and anyway, I'm glad that I took that journey. I'm glad for the people that helped me along in that journey to become a follower of Jesus. I   Michael Hingson ** 18:39 hear you. I know for me, I've, I've always had, I think, a pretty strong faith. My father and I talked a lot about God and religion and so on as I was growing up, and he read things to me, so I was, was pretty used to the whole concept right from the outset and and one of the things that I learned along the way, and I think it fits in fits into what you just said, is, as you said, people try to fill that, that void with so many different things. And the thing we never do is we never listen. And the thing that frustrates me most about prayer is that people are so busy praying to God about what they want that they forget God already knows. The issue is, are we really willing and and are we? Are we ready to take the time to listen, to get the answers?   Skip Vaccarello ** 19:38 And that is such a good point. Michael, I absolutely no, that's the issue. Go ahead. No, as I say, I agree with you that, you know that a lot of us and I do this time to time, I just pray, okay, that's it, but taking the time to then listen, and then, if you really are aware of it, you know, you'll see various things along the way where God is is communicating. Creating with you, either through other people and things that your opportunities, you're presented with, and so on. So it's that whole idea, I think in the Bible, it talks about praying continually, and in my own myself, I kind of have an ongoing, just a dialog in my head. Well, God, what do I do in this situation or or thank him for something I see, or whatever, but, but, yeah, that whole idea of just being aware and listening is a very important one. Yes, very good point. Thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 20:29 Well, and one of the things that we talked a lot about as I was growing up was the fact that, yes, we believe in God, we believe in Jesus and so on. But there are other religions that really, when you analyze them, come essentially to the same place. They're peaceful, they're loving. And unfortunately, we have all too many people who say there's only one religion that works, and that just isn't so either. Well, I I think that there, there there are issues, but the fact is that there are a lot of people who believe in God, and come at it from a different point of view, but still believe in God.   Skip Vaccarello ** 21:10 When I agree, I think that there is there the lot of there's a lot of commonality among all the world religions, and there's a most of them all have a moral code to them. In fact, the Golden Rule, do unto others, as you would have them do unto you, is common to all religions, but at the same time, there are also some real differences. And you know, it's interesting where you know what you said, and many other people say that, that there are many different paths to God. But typically, if you were to ask anyone in any one of those religions, they would say, know that if it's a Muslim, I think that we have the path or Jewish person, right? You know, you know, and so on. And so I would encourage people to, I mean, you may not like this idea, but, you know, I would, I would, I believe that really, I mean, I'm covering this in an upcoming podcast, that that Jesus is, is, is the way. I mean, he's the only, the only one in a in any of these world religions, most, or most world religions, you know, say that, that we have to sort of earn our way. You know, to salvation. Am I a good enough person to earn eternal life? Whereas with Jesus, the other way around, he wants us. He's very, very inclusive and and offers his love and His forgiveness to everyone. And you know, he says, you know, in John 14 six, I am the I Am the Truth or way in the life, and no one comes to the Father except through me. So it's a that is an exclusive statement, but it also Christian faith is inclusive anyone who wants to come. It's not, you know, is is ready to come. So we probably don't want to get into that too much. But, no,   Michael Hingson ** 23:01 I don't, not too much. But by the same token, I take it in a little bit different slant. Not I don't I agree with what you said, but I also know that I am goes beyond what we're talking about. God in in Exodus And Moses said, Who do I say? Is Sending me? Says I am, that I am, thou shalt say I am, has sent me to you. And I think we I think a lot of people miss that, and they miss the fact that I am is, is God,   Skip Vaccarello ** 23:33 yeah. However, where is your way? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 23:38 yeah. And I think that that's the thing, and I think that that was what Jesus was saying as well. Because Jesus also said, I am my father. Are One. And all the works that I do, greater works you can do as well. I think we, what we, what we really need to do is to recognize that, in fact, from a mindset standpoint, it's ultimately believing in God. And if you're an atheist, that's fine. Sorry if we're offending you, but that, that's a different story. But I but I do know that that in reality, we all need to recognize that if we listen, if we really work at it. We can be better people than than we probably think we are.   Skip Vaccarello ** 24:24 Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that that is the you know. The point of it is, is, you know, to be, you know, the, you know, the message of Jesus is one of love. I mean, he loves everyone, and we're called, you know, to love everyone. That that means not just fellow Christians, but no matter what faith you're part of, or whatever you know you may have done or do or whatever. Yeah, we're called to love everyone. You think how different the world would be if we all really acted that way?   Michael Hingson ** 24:53 Gee, wouldn't that be something, especially today, right? And it's absolutely, yeah. Yeah, absolutely crazy. So the prayer breakfast and so on, kind of, I assume, ended when the pandemic began. Well,   Skip Vaccarello ** 25:08 it did for a while, yeah, but there is a group that that's that's restarted it, and we, by the way, we changed the name from Silicon Valley prayer breakfast, and a few years ago, we changed to connect Silicon Valley, and we did that because we really wanted to be open to people. It's not an event just for Christians, but for anybody that was interested in in attending. So it is active, and in fact, it's, it's now had a I'm only minimally involved, and they've made me Chairman Emeritus, but, but there's, there's a new group that's running it, and they've had several different events. So it is, is going on, if any of your listeners are in and around Silicon Valley, it's called Connect Silicon Valley, and I'd encourage them to go. I think they have a speaker that we had earlier. It's coming up in March. I think it's promote. Hawk. Promote is a one of the top venture capitalists in the world. He's with Norwest ventures, and I think he's, he's a speaker at an event that's coming up in a few weeks.   Michael Hingson ** 26:10 I may end up being in San Francisco, but not till May. I'll have to find out when they meet and see if there's a way to get down there. Be kind of fun.   26:17 Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 26:19 But it's, I think faith in and having beliefs as extremely important to do. And one of the things that I always quote when I am giving speeches is something Jimmy Carter once said, which is, we must adjust to changing times while holding to unwavering principles. And I think that all too often we we miss the principles part.   Skip Vaccarello ** 26:45 Yeah, that's right, I agree, Yep, yeah, absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 26:51 It is something that we need to do. Well, I'm glad that connect Silicon Valley is is still continuing to function. That's really a pretty important thing to do. Well, when did your   Skip Vaccarello ** 27:04 I think it is especially in, you know, in Silicon Valley, which is a pretty secular place, yeah, you know. And I think it's a secular place because, you know, it's, it attracts a lot of people with Type A personalities, people that are feeling very self sufficient. And why do I need, why do I need God? But, but it's been interesting. I really feel that there's a movement of God going on in Silicon Valley, and it has been for a while. And you know, what's kind of motivated us, our vision with Connect Silicon Valley was that if Silicon Valley ever could be known as a place not just of technology and innovation and wealth creation, but a place of God, the world would take notice, and to me, there's lots of evidence that that's beginning to happen.   Michael Hingson ** 27:48 Yeah, well, I think that's true. And sometimes we're not necessarily hearing a loud voice, but the voice is still there, and more and more people are going to get drawn to it, I'm sure.   Skip Vaccarello ** 28:01 Well, I think so. I mean, ultimately, as we said earlier, I think each one of us has a sense of a need for something beyond ourselves, and people might call it a force or a god or whatever else, and, and so I think there is that need and and, and hopefully, I would encourage your listeners, you know, to explore the evidence for faith to, you know, take a risk. And, you know, people might have been turned off by religious people, and I can understand that. But, you know, take look at it. And I would specifically say, Look at what, what Jesus has to say. And take, take the time to look at the evidence, because there's plenty of evidence out there for Christian faith.   Michael Hingson ** 28:41 I participated in a number of programs. It's a Methodist program, but it's ecumenical, called the walk to Emmaus. And have you heard of that? No, I haven't. It's It's actually called a short course in Christianity. It's not intended to convince people what they should believe, but rather it's to develop leadership within the church. Whatever church it doesn't, it doesn't, although it was started by the Methodist. Actually, that's an outgrowth of a Catholic program called crusio, but it's the same thing. And when I was lay director of one of the walks to Emmaus, and we could talk about the history, but walk to Emmaus is basically based on after Jesus was crucified and Rose. That day, there were people walking to a town called Emmaus, and he joined them, and they didn't know who he was, and they talked, and they all went to to Emmaus, and they sat down and they had dinner. And it was a dinner that He revealed Himself to them, and then he disappeared. But the whole idea is, it's a way to bring a little bit more enlightenment to leaders. But one of the things that, as the lay director, I had to do was to give a talk on perseverance and so on. And of course. Thought that has always struck with me, and I think it goes beyond Christianity, Christianity, but Tolstoy once said The biggest problem with Christianity is a lot of people don't practice it. There's truth to that. And what you you know you said earlier that so many people and are not necessarily the best Christians, and there's so much of that we really need to go back to basics and everything that we do.   Skip Vaccarello ** 30:28 Yeah, I think that a lot of people get turned off to faith, or in Christian faith, because they look at the some of the behavior of people who claim to be Christians. And the fact is that every one of us is flawed in some ways, in one way or another. What I like to do is, is look at people who what was their life before they you know, they had Jesus in their life, and what's their life after that? And, and you can often see the difference. But people are we're all. We all make mistakes. We're all imperfect people, and, and, and in faith, the church is not for it's not for perfect people. It's for sinners, people that are imperfect. And that's that's really why, why? You know why Jesus came to us? So to why would you add encourage your listeners to try not to get turned off by some of the behavior of Christians, because some of it is, is certainly not good, but to really look at what Jesus says, and, you know, engage people who who are believers, and I think they admit that what's what's right and what's at fault and so on, the basic principles are the basic principles,   Michael Hingson ** 31:35 and they hold no matter where you come from and what you do. And it's important to really deal with that. Although I'm with Mark Twain, I wonder if God had written man because he was disappointed in the monkeys, but that's another story   31:49 I had heard that crook.   Michael Hingson ** 31:52 So, so you wrote the book finding God in Silicon Valley. When did you write that?   Skip Vaccarello ** 31:56 It was, it was published in 2015   Michael Hingson ** 32:00 Okay, and   Skip Vaccarello ** 32:02 it's been, yeah, it really was an outgrowth of some of the talks people gave at the Silicon Valley prayer breakfast. And I felt that it really the reason for writing. It was to encourage people to to consider faith, because in the book, they'd read about Silicon Valley leaders who in their faith story, how they came to faith, what they went through. Some, you know, some stories were a little bit like mine, where they found the evidence, but others, you know, went through personal tragedy and found faith that way. And then the stories are also about how they're trying to live out their faith, day to day, and whatever, whatever business they're involved with. So they're a variety of people. There are nonprofit leaders, companies, CEOs, venture capitalists and so on. And you know, it's, I think we all like to hear stories, and that was what was attractive about the Silicon Valley prayer breakfast. I know that sometimes when I'm sitting in church on a Sunday morning, and I may not quite remember what the pastor said, but I usually remember the stories that he tells. And so I think stories are an effective way to communicate things. In fact, I'd call Jesus the Greatest storyteller of all time. He told his stories often in parables. And those are things that we, you know, that we that we remember. So yeah, the the book was I what I enjoyed it. I just enjoyed is I just enjoyed sitting down with people and hearing their stories and interviewing them, and I did the best I could to compile those stories. There were 26 of them in the book, and yeah, it's it's available on on Amazon, so I encourage people to to pick it up and take a look. And you can go through with a person you know, or one story, or, you know, that seemed to attract your attention. So it was a, it was quite a, quite a project to undertake, but I'm glad that I did it. And let me just maybe the I'll tell you the way I got the idea is I went back to a Harvard reunion. This might have been in the mid 1990s and there was, they had a little sometimes at these reunions, they have little groups that get together. And there was one that I was as part of a Christian cohort, and even though I wasn't a Christian in college anyway, as part of this group. And we're all, we're given a book called Finding God at Harvard. And you know, although Harvard was founded as a, you know, as a, as a Christian college, it's certainly not thought of that these days. And so the writer Kelly Monroe, and she's now, her name is Kelly Monroe Kohlberg, had put together stories of Harvard graduates in how they came to faith and what they were doing. So I thought was a great book, and I so that's what planted the idea in my mind. I said, well, people don't think of Harvard as a place of of faith. They certainly don't think of Silicon Valley as that. So I had the idea, and this was in the mid 1990s but as I said, it wasn't published until 2015 because I found it was really difficult for me to work full time and write the book. So after I left my last full time position is when I had the time to write the book.   Michael Hingson ** 34:59 Well. Well, and I assume it's been pretty successful.   Skip Vaccarello ** 35:03 That's beyond, I think. So it's, I mean, I get some, you know, to me, successful is, if people have read it and they say, Yeah, you know, and you know, I'm considering faith. And to me, that's, that's the success of it. So it's, anyway, it was a, it was really quite an experience. And and happy to do it. And I'm still in the process. I'm looking at a couple of other books now, maybe following up with and writing.   Michael Hingson ** 35:30 Writing is fun, as you know, I've written, yeah, now three books, and I haven't figured out what to write next, but I'm sure something is going to come along. I haven't written fiction yet, and I haven't really come up with a a hot idea yet, but we'll see. It's kind of fun to think about,   Skip Vaccarello ** 35:50 sure, absolutely,   Michael Hingson ** 35:52 but, but, you know, we we we do what we can, and we keep moving forward, and that's what it's really about. But it is a lot of fun. And meanwhile, I do get to travel and speak, and I'm working with accessibe and helping to make internet websites more usable and inclusive. That's something that VisiCalc never did, was to make an accessible version of the product. But that's okay. That's okay. It took it took Excel and and other products a while before they became accessible, too. So not a problem. We, we, we all grow, which is what it's really about. But so what? What is your Well, let me ask it this way. So you wrote the book. You've retired and so on. What kind of projects do you have coming up, other than thinking about other books?   Skip Vaccarello ** 36:46 Well, a few things you know that I'm doing right now. As I mentioned, I was part of a startup venture capital coming company called one flourish capital, and I'm still a little bit involved, but not as involved as I was there on a second fund. And I was very involved in the first fund, so I spent a little bit of time with that, but I'm more engaged with things like, I love mentoring. I mentor some students, and mentor some entrepreneurs and and enjoy those those opportunities I've and as I said, I'm putting together a series of podcasts, not as active as you are in it, but I did a series last year, and I titled it, who do you want to become, encouraging people to put together a personal strategic plan. You know, when we're involved in business, is often the company does a strategic plan. Of you know, what's our vision, our mission, our values, our goals and so on. And something that I've practiced for many years is putting together a personal strategic plan. So some of that podcast series is just encouraging people to consider doing that, which again, give a clearer direction for where, where you want your life to go, where God wants your life life to go. So anyway, that was a podcast series, and right now I'm in the midst of of putting together series that I'm calling why I believe, exploring the critical questions about Christian faith. And so I'm going around interviewing experts on, you know, some of the tougher questions you know, you've we talked about one earlier, is Jesus the only way? Other questions, you know, what about what about heaven? How? Another question is, how could a loving God, you know, allow innocent people to suffer? So question, questions like that, that that are often stumbling blocks for people. And I know, question answering, questions like that was very helpful for me in my faith journey. So anyway, I'm in the process of of putting that podcast series, which I expect will be ready in April, and if your listeners are are interested, it'll be on, it's on skip, vacarello.com, so that's where you can find the first podcast series. The last name is V, A, C, C, A, R, E, L, L, O. So anyway, it's there. It's also it'll be on Spotify and Apple and YouTube. So anyway, so I'm involved in that, but I should also say that one of the important things that I do is we moved here to be close to her daughter and grandchildren. So I love spending the time, you know, with my grandchildren. And we just traveled out to Spokane, Washington to see the other family and and that's just, that's just so enjoyable. So while I'm actively involved in in doing things like that, I I, you know, love, you know, spending time with the grandchildren, and also I try to stay, you know, physically active. Still play some tennis and golf and pickleball, and, you know, it's so, you know it's and anyway, I'm involved in a lot of different things, and enjoy them. You   Michael Hingson ** 39:53 know, it's interesting. You were talking about the issue of, how could a loving God let any. And suffer. My reaction to that question, and I've heard it a lot, my reaction to that has always been, how could God not it's really an issue of we listen to God, and what did we miss along the way that would have prevented us from suffering, but God gave us free will and free choice.   Skip Vaccarello ** 40:18 That's exactly right. And so that is the crux of the issue. We have free choice. And you know, when some of those choices aren't good ones that we make, and grad doesn't force anything on any of us, and that was probably one of the things he gave us, was that we're free, free to choose, and we can choose bad or we can choose good,   Michael Hingson ** 40:37 yeah. And the question is, it's always the question, do we learn from mistakes that we made? And, you know, I have rejected the concept of failure. I think that failure is such a horrible thing to say. I think that there are things that don't work out. But did we fail that means we can't ever deal with it or do anything about it? Or can we take the time to analyze what didn't work right? And even when we did something and it worked out, could we do it better? That's one of the basic cruxes of live like a guide dog. My latest book, which is all about teaching people how to control fear, and the whole idea is that we don't take nearly enough time at the end of the day, or at some point in the day, to do more introspection and self analysis to understand why whatever happens to us happens to us, and what could we have done to make it have a better outcome, or even a or did we come up with The best outcome possible?   Skip Vaccarello ** 41:41 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I absolutely agree. What did we learn from it? I mean, you would see that time and time again. Some of the most successful people had many failures along the way, and you know, hopefully you're going to learn from that failure, and you're going to try something else, you're going to fail, and you're going to try something else and, and that's, I think that's just what goes on in life   Michael Hingson ** 42:02 well, and that's why I say that it isn't really a failure. It is a mistake, perhaps, right? We didn't intend for it to be a mistake, but, but if it, if it was a mistake, and we acknowledge that, why and what do we do about it? And I think that's one of the important things that so many of us could do a better job of thinking about was, why did this happen? What was I afraid of, or what could I have done differently? And the fact is that if we open our minds to those questions, we'll get the answers, yep, yep, I agree, which is, I think, really important.   Skip Vaccarello ** 42:41 I was listening to, I don't remember the I wish I could remember it, but I was watching something on television the other night, and there was a quote that kind of stuck with me, and it's in the quote we're doing something like this, is it was an encouragement of, I think it was a mother to a son. He said, Don't, don't think of what life has done to you. Think of what life has done for you. What we're talking about is you might have run into some difficulty, some okay, but maybe that's an opportunity to learn from it, and to go on and to do something else and and, you know, I think life, life is like that. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 43:15 you know, people talk to me a lot about the World Trade Center, and don't you have guilt of surviving while other people didn't, right? And and I tell people, no, I don't have any guilt about that, because the fact is, I did survive. Why others did not is is really, in part, possibly an issue of what choices they made. But the bottom line is, it isn't whether I feel guilty or not about surviving because I had no control over the World Trade Center happening. What I do have control over the though is how I deal with it and how I move forward, and that's the choice that I get to make.   Skip Vaccarello ** 43:56 Yeah, very good point,   Michael Hingson ** 43:59 which I think is really important. And someone asked me that just the other day, and then that was in this is the response that I gave, is, the reality is, it's we have no control over a lot of things that that may happen to us, but we do have total control over how we deal with it, no matter what it is, yeah,   Skip Vaccarello ** 44:19 and you think of it, the, you know, I'm sure, the lives that you've changed, you know, writing about that and talking about that with your speaking appearances, and it was such a tragedy that, you know, the 1000s of what was 1700 or 18, I don't remember the number, the number of people that died in that, and they're all 200 Yeah, 3200. Was all the people that were affected by it. You know, on the other hand, I mean stories like yours came out of that, and you've been an encouragement to many, many other people so that you know, you've, you know, taken advantage of that opportunity, and you've affected the lives of many, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 44:56 tell me more about what you're doing today with mentoring students and so on. More. How do you do that? Or how do they find you? How does that all work?   Skip Vaccarello ** 45:03 Well, I one of the things is I mentioned earlier that there's a whole bunch of things that have gone on in Silicon Valley where I where I really feel that that God is at work. And there was a guy that I got to know that I actually mentored him a little bit, and he founded an organization called scholars of finance. And it started in a and it's not a quote a Christian base, but it's a, it's sort of an ethics based organization. And his idea was to to go to college campuses and encourage people who were in finance, accounting, finance of some sort or another, to look at the ethical side of business. So he put together this thing called scholars of finance, and then they were started on maybe a couple of universities in the Bay Area. I think they now want maybe 70 campuses around the US and and he's so I've had the opportunity to speak at a number of those campuses, some in person, most of them virtually. And the idea is that they have people like me that come and speak and try to, you know, we tell stories, encourage people about, maybe the ethical issues that we ran across and, and how you can kind of navigate some of those issues and, and, and part of that whole program is, if you want to put yourself up to mentoring, you know you can have the opportunity to mentor some students. So I have, and I've had the opportunity, and I have the opportunity to mentor some students and and I really, I really love it. And what are the differences I find? I think that, you know, sometimes there are negative things that people say about college students these days, but one of the things that I find encouraging is that they're really open to to mentoring, to getting advice from an from an older generation. I remember when I was in school was what was the mantra that you don't trust anyone over 30, you know they don't know what they're talking about, but, but I find students these days are really looking for that for that advice and guidance and and so I enjoy when I have those opportunities to speak to people. And I would say also that a lot of these students are incredibly motivated and driven. And it's, it's just, it's interesting to see. It was, I think it was even different than than when I was in when I was in college. But anyway, that's that's kind of a fun thing to do. And then I also have entrepreneurs, people that either find me or, you know, that may be a company that we've invested in, that have an opportunity to help those, those entrepreneurs, with their business plans. And one of the, one of the areas I like to focus on is helping them develop the right culture. I think, to have a successful business, you have a successful business is you need a culture, you know, a positive culture that's encouraging to people. So, you know, I do that. I try to encourage them to start out and build the right culture. You know, in your organization, doesn't mean that business will succeed, you know, but that's one of the things I like to to help entrepreneurs consider as they're building a business. So it's not just about the product. Certainly, you need a product, and you need to market that product, and often you need technology to make a success. But ultimately, it's the people in that organization and how you deal with them, and how you deal with your customers, and how you deal with your vendors and so on that can can help make or break a business. So anyway, those are the the mentoring opportunities that I have, and as I say and do, enjoy   Michael Hingson ** 48:31 them. What are some of the typical questions that students ask that you find to be sort of common among a lot of students?   Skip Vaccarello ** 48:40 Well, they'll, they'll, you know, they'll sometimes ask me about, you know, ethical situations that I've come across. Often, they'll ask, since I've been involved in the in the venture capital business, is, you know, what is it? What is, what does a venture capitalist look like? You know, how can I get, get get funded? And that, that's sort of an ongoing topic of of conversation, and it's in that environment, you know, it certainly changes a lot over time, but that's a that's a common, a common side of it. You know, occasionally there'll be discussions on technology, and I'm not, even though I've been involved in Silicon Valley for a long time, not a technologist, and they're real, usually, typically very far advanced in that, in that side of things. But, you know, get questions on, you know, what's a go to market strategy? How do I, if I have this product, what do I, what do I do with it? And often, you know, just, you know, I get presented a business plan, what do you think about this, and you know, where can I make changes? And sometimes, you know, often they're very well done, but sometimes there might be some, some blind spots, things that they don't, that they don't see. And interestingly enough, and this is not, you know, something that that I push for, but some of the students then they, you know, they pick me up. Ask because they they've seen my bio, and I've had a number of students who were weren't brought up with any faith background, that asked me about faith and what was my story, and in what should I do to consider faith? So I, you know, I find that very interesting, and I'm very happy to answer any questions that they may have. So that's that's enjoyable when those opportunities come.   Michael Hingson ** 50:22 Yeah, it's kind of cool to be able to enter into those discussions and just talk a little bit about faith and what what they're looking for, and what you're looking for and so on. And getting a chance to in a in a non confrontive way, help people understand the value of faith, whatever that may end up being for them, I think is important to do, yeah,   Skip Vaccarello ** 50:50 and often, you know, I end up, well, I, well, I, you know, I'll offer things if they ask. But I usually what I like to do is just ask lots of questions to them. And I think it's very helpful, you know, where are they coming from? What are they considered? What are their experiences been? You know, especially if it's in the, in the faith environment. And I think it really helps open up conversations, when, when, when you end up not just being there as the, you know, as the advisor that knows everything, because certainly I don't, but it's very helpful, I think, as a method, as a mentor, is to ask lots of questions.   Michael Hingson ** 51:29 I love to have question time when I speak, because I find every so often I'll get a new question. It doesn't happen as often as it used to, but every so often, something new comes along and and or people ask questions in a different way. And what I really love about it is it helps me learn, because it makes me think, and I think that's as important as anything else. And as I tell people when I'm talking about speaking or doing these podcasts, if I'm not learning at least as much as anyone else on the podcast, or when I'm speaking, I'm not doing my job, right, right? Yeah,   Skip Vaccarello ** 52:05 I agree with you. Yeah. I think I learned more. You know, occasionally I'm asked to give a sermon at a church or a speak at a at a public place, and I think that I learned when you're I think I learned more than anything else when I'm when I'm gonna have to prepare for these, these opportunities, isn't it fun? Oh, it is. It certainly is.   Michael Hingson ** 52:26 Well, so you've been retired for a while. What kind of advice would you give to somebody who may be thinking about retiring?   Skip Vaccarello ** 52:34 Good question, you know, and it's funny sometimes people ask me that question, and I think that, well, I'm retired from making money, but I'm still pretty busy doing things. And that would be my encouragement to people, is to, you know, don't, don't just think you're going to go sit on a beach or or whatever else. I mean, I think that that can get boring pretty quickly. But, you know, and if I would say, continue to do what you're doing if you love it, you know. But consider what your maybe your spouse has to say, your children or grandchildren have to say, and and, you know, make sure you spend, spend time with with them. But my encouragement would be just is to keep busy, find activities. If it's in your case, or my case, has been doing some writing or podcasts, or, you know, whatever it is that you're passionate about, just just you have an opportunity now to do it, but also to take time for relationships. And one thing I didn't mention that is one thing I encouraged students to think about, it's really a question of life. Is life is about relationships. And you know, you want to hopefully along the way, people haven't sacrificed relationships. So you see that sometimes in business, where they sacrifice, you know, their family or other relationships for success in business. But you know, when you're retired is a time to eat, to deepen those those relationships, to really spend some time, you know, with with other people, so and and, as I say, to do things that you love. The other thing I'd say is, is to keep moving. You might I had a chance to visit my mom about a few weeks ago. She's in she's in Cape Cod, in Massachusetts, and she's 103 103 and a half. And three and a half and and people ask her, What's your key to longevity? And she says, Just keep moving. And although she's not physically as active, she tries to get up and keep moving. And she's also one that's and always keeps alert. She volunteered she's not, she hasn't, doesn't have the capacity to do that now, but up till about 9998 she was, she had volunteer activities going on. So, you know, stay engaged, keep keep moving, keep doing things and and anyway, that's my encouragement. Don't, you know, don't just think that it's going to be, you know, time at the beach, or certainly not time in front of the. Television, you know, keep moving, if you can, and keep keep mentally stimulated.   Michael Hingson ** 55:06 That's the real key. Is mental stimulation, I think is extremely important. Just I think retirement is, is overrated in terms of what it really or what people think it is. And I think mental stimulation is is an important thing. And when you're stopped working at a job full time, because it's time to not do that anymore, you should have more time to be able to develop the relationships stimulate your brain, keep your brain thinking, and maybe go off and look at doing things in a different direction. That always is a great challenge. Absolutely,   Skip Vaccarello ** 55:40 yeah, absolutely. It's a, it's a very, it's a neat time of life now. I mean, I enjoyed the time that I had while I was working, but, you know, when you retire, you have a little bit more freedom you had before. So, you know, but use it wisely. It's really true with anything we all, we all are given, you know, resources of various sorts, and time is one of the most valuable resources that we have. And you know, we're, you know, invested. Invest it wisely. Because, you know, life is life is short, and as I get older, realize how short life is, so invest that time wisely and and invest in relationships, as I say, is probably the most important   Michael Hingson ** 56:24 thing. Yeah, I think that's extremely crucial, and makes a lot of sense. And you'll meet people and find things that you never knew before, and you continue to learn, which is what it's all about. Yep, absolutely. Well, I want to thank you for spending an hour with us today, and in doing this, we'll have to do it again, and I think it'll be a lot of fun, but I really enjoy you being here and appreciate you taking the time   Skip Vaccarello ** 56:48 Well, Michael, thank you so much. I've enjoyed it. It's fun for us to to reappoint, yeah, yeah. And it's a it's a great conversation, and hopefully listeners will get some benefit from it, but I've enjoyed the time that I've that I've spent with you today again. Thanks. Thank you so much for having me.   Michael Hingson ** 57:06 Well, I hope all of you have enjoyed listening and watching us, and that you'll give us a five star rating wherever you're watching or hearing the podcast. We really appreciate five star ratings a lot. And just your thoughts. So if you have any thoughts about today's episode, please email me. I'm easy to reach. It's Michael H I M, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S i b, e.com, and if you want to subscribe to the podcast, do it wherever you're listening, or you can always go to Michael hingson, M, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o n.com/podcast, and I, and I hope you'll do that, but also skip for you and all, all people out there who are encountering our episode today, if you know of someone, including yourself, who might want to be or you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, I'd love you to reach out to me. We're always looking for more people to have on and talk about various things, and like I said, for me, in part, I get to learn what we do that. So we really appreciate you finding other guests for us. So don't ever hesitate to reach out and let us know if people we ought to interact with. But again, skip. I just want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and we really appreciate your time.   Skip Vaccarello ** 58:24 Michael, thank you again. Enjoy the rest of the day. Appreciate it.   Michael Hingson ** 58:32 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Who knows the meaning of the term “Business Continuity management” without looking it up? Our guest this week, Alex Fullick, is intimately familiar with the term and its ramifications. I first met Alex when we were connected as participants in a conference in London this past October sponsored by Business Continuity International. The people involved with “Business Continuity management” were described to me as the “what if people”. They are the people no one pays attention to, but who plan for emergency and unexpected situations and events that especially can cause interruptions with the flow or continuity of business. Of course, everyone wants the services of the business continuity experts once something unforeseen or horrific occurs. Alex was assigned to introduce me at the conference. Since the conference I have even had the pleasure to appear on his podcast and now, he agreed to reciprocate.   Our conversation covers many topics related to emergencies, business continuity and the mindsets people really have concerning business flow and even fear. Needless to say, this topic interests me since I directly participated in the greatest business interruption event we have faced in the world, the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001.   Alex freely discusses fear, emergency planning and how we all can improve our chances of dealing with any kind of emergency, personal or business related, by developing the proper mindset. He points out how so often people may well plan for emergencies at work and sometimes they even take the step of developing their own business continuity mindset, but they rarely do the same for their personal lives.   Alex is the author of eight books on the subject and he now is working on book 9. You can learn more about them in our podcast show notes. I think you will gain a lot of insight from what Alex has to say and I hope his thoughts and comments will help you as you think more now about the whole idea of business continuity.       About the Guest:   Alex Fullick has been working in the Business Continuity Management, Disaster Recovery, and Operational Resilience industries as a consultant/contractor for just over 28 years. Alex is also the founder and Managing Director of StoneRoad, a consulting and training firm specializing in BCM and Resilience and is the author of eight books…and working on number nine.   He has numerous industry certifications and has presented at prestigious conferences around the globe including Manila, Seoul, Bucharest, Brisbane, Toronto, and London (to name a few). In July of 2017 he created the highly successful and top-rated podcast focusing on Business Continuity and Resilience ‘Preparing for the Unexpected'. The show aims to touch on any subject that directly or indirectly touches on the world of disasters, crises, well-being, continuity management, and resilience. The first of its kind in the BCM and Resilience world and is still going strong after thirty plus seasons, reaching an audience around the globe. Alex was born in England but now calls the city of Guelph, Ontario, Canada, his home. Ways to connect Alex:   www.linkedin.com/in/alex-fullick-826a694   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello, everyone, wherever you happen to be, welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet and unexpected is anything that has nothing to do with inclusion or diversity. As I've said many times today, our guest is someone I got to meet last year, and we'll talk about that. His name is Alex Bullock, and Alex and I met because we both attended a conference in London in October about business continuity. And I'm going to let Alex define that and describe what that is all about. But Alex introduced me at the conference, and among other things, I convinced him that he had to come on unstoppable mindset. And so we get to do that today. He says he's nervous. So you know, all I gotta say is just keep staring at your screens and your speakers and and just keep him nervous. Keep him on edge. Alex, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're   Alex Fullick ** 02:19 here. Thanks, Michael. I really appreciate the invite, and I'm glad to be here today. And yeah, a little nervous, because usually it's me on the other side of the microphone interviewing people. So I don't fit in this chair too often   Michael Hingson ** 02:33 I've been there and done that as I recall, yes,   Alex Fullick ** 02:37 yes, you were a guest of mine. Oh, I guess when did we do that show? A month and a half, two months ago? Or something, at least,   Michael Hingson ** 02:45 I forget, yeah. And I said the only charge for me coming on your podcast was you had to come on this one. So there you go. Here I am. Yeah, several people ask me, Is there a charge for coming on your podcast? And I have just never done that. I've never felt that I should charge somebody to come on the podcast, other than we do have the one rule, which is, you gotta have fun. If you can't have fun, then there's no sense being on the podcast. So, you know, that works out. Well, tell us about the early Alex, growing up and, you know, all that sort of stuff, so that people get to know you a little bit.   Alex Fullick ** 03:16 Oh, the early Alex, sure. The early Alex, okay, well, a lot of people don't know I was actually born in England myself, uh, Farnam Surrey, southwest of London, so until I was about eight, and then we came to Canada. Grew up in Thunder Bay, Northwestern Ontario, and then moved to the Greater Toronto Area, and I've lived all around here, north of the city, right downtown in the city, and now I live an hour west of it, in a city called Guelph. So that's how I got here. Younger me was typical, I guess, nothing   Michael Hingson ** 03:56 special. Went to school, high school and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah, no.   Alex Fullick ** 04:02 Brainiac. I was working my first job was in hospitality, and I thought that's where I was going to be for a long time, because I worked my way up to I did all the positions, kitchen manager, Assistant Manager, cooks, bartender, server, did everything in there was even a company trainer at one point for a restaurant chain, and then did some general managing. But I got to a point where computers were going to start coming in to the industry, and I thought, well, I guess I should learn how to use these things, shouldn't I? And I went to school, learned how to use them, basic using, I'm not talking about building computers and networks and things like that, just the user side of things. And that was, did that for six months, and then I thought I was going back into the industry. And no fate had. Something different for me. What happened? Well, my best friend, who is still my best friend, 30 years later, he was working for a large financial institution, and he said, Hey, we need some help on this big program to build some call trees. When you're finished, he goes, get your foot in the door, and you could find something else within the bank. So I went, Okay, fine. Well, they called the position business recovery planner, and I knew absolutely nothing about business recovery or business continuity. Not a single thing. I'd never even heard the term yeah and but for some reason, I just took to it. I don't know what it was at the time, but I just went, this is kind of neat. And I think it was the fact that I was learning something different, you know, I wasn't memorizing a recipe for Alfredo sauce or something like that, you know, it was completely different. And I was meeting and working with people at every level, sitting in meetings with senior vice presidents and CEOs and giving them updates, and, you know, a data analyst, data entry clerk, and just talking. And I went, This is so much fun, you know, and that's I've been doing that now for over 28 years.   Michael Hingson ** 06:14 Well, I I had not really heard much of the term business continuity, although I understand emergency preparedness and such things, because I did that, of course, going into the World Trade Center, and I did it for, well, partly to be prepared for an emergency, but also partly because I was a leader of an office, and I felt that I needed to know What to do if there were ever an emergency, and how to behave, because I couldn't necessarily rely on other people, and also, in reality, I might even be the only person in the office. So it was a survival issue to a degree, but I learned what to do. And of course, we know the history of September 11 and me and all that, but the reality is that what I realized many years later was that the knowledge that I learned and gained that helped me on September 11 really created a mindset that allowed me to be able to function and not be as I Put it to people blinded or paralyzed by fear, the fear was there. I would be dumb to say I wasn't concerned, but the fear helped me focus, as opposed to being something that overwhelmed and completely blocked me from being capable and being able to function. So I know what you're saying. Well, what exactly is business continuity?   Alex Fullick ** 07:44 You know, there are people who are going to watch this and listen and they're going to want me to give a really perfect definition, but depending on the organization, depending on leadership, depending on the guiding industry organization out there, business continuity, Institute, Disaster Recovery Institute, ISO NIST and so many other groups out there. I'm not going to quote any of them as a definition, because if I if I say one the others, are going to be mad at me, yell at you, yeah, yeah. Or if I quote it wrong, they'll get mad at me. So I'm going to explain it the way I usually do it to people when I'm talking in the dog park, yeah, when they ask what I'm doing, I'll say Business Continuity Management is, how do you keep your business going? What do you need? Who do you need the resources when you've been hit by an event and and with the least impact to your customers and your delivery of services, yeah, and it's simple, they all get it. They all understand it. So if anyone doesn't like that, please feel free send me an email. I can hit the delete key just as fast as you can write it. So you know, but that's what a lot of people understand, and that's really what business continuity management is, right from the very beginning when you identify something, all the way to why we made it through, we're done. The incident's over.   Michael Hingson ** 09:16 Both worked with at the Business Continuity international hybrid convention in October was Sergio Garcia, who kind of coordinated things. And I think it was he who I asked, what, what is it that you do? What's the purpose of all of the people getting together and having this conference? And he said, I think it was he who said it not you, that the the best way to think about it is that the people who go to this conference are the what if people, they're the ones who have to think about having an event, and what happens if there's an event, and how do you deal with it? But so the what if people, they're the people that nobody ever pays any attention to until such time as there is something that. Happens, and then they're in high demand.   Alex Fullick ** 10:03 Yeah, that that's especially that being ignored part until something happened. Yeah, yeah. Well, well, the nice thing, one of the things I love about this position, and I've been doing it like I said, for 28 years, written books, podcasts, you've been on my show, YouTube channel, etc, etc, is that I do get to learn and from so many people and show the value of what we do, and I'm in a position to reach out and talk to so many different people, like I mentioned earlier. You know, CEOs. I can sit in front of the CEO and tell them you're not ready. If something happens, you're not ready because you haven't attended any training, or your team hasn't attended training, or nobody's contributing to crisis management or the business continuity or whatever you want to talk about. And I find that empowering, and it's amazing to sit there and not tell a CEO to their face, you know you're screwed. Not. You know, you don't say those kinds of things. No, but being able to sit there and just have a moment with them to to say that, however you term it, you might have a good relationship with them where you can't say that for all I know, but it being able to sit in front of a CEO or a vice president and say, hey, you know, this is where things are. This is where I need your help. You know, I don't think a lot of people get that luxury to be able to do it. And I'm lucky enough that I've worked with a lot of clients where I can't. This is where I need your help. You know. What's your expectation? Let's make it happen, you know, and having that behind you is it's kind of empowering,   Michael Hingson ** 11:47 yeah, well, one of the things that I have start talking a little bit about with people when talk about emergency preparedness is, if you're really going to talk about being prepared for an emergency. One of the things that you need to do is recognize that probably the biggest part of emergency preparedness, or business continuity, however you want to term, it, isn't physical it's the mental preparation that you need to make that people generally don't make. You know, I've been watching for the last now, five or six weeks, all the flyers and things down here in California, which have been so horrible, and people talk about being prepared physically. You should have a go bag so that you can grab it and go. You should do this. You should do that. But the problem is nobody ever talks about or or helps people really deal with the mental preparation for something unexpected. And I'm going to, I'm going to put it that way, as opposed to saying something negative, because it could be a positive thing. But the bottom line is, we don't really learn to prepare ourselves for unexpected things that happen in our lives and how to react to them, and so especially when it's a negative thing, the fear just completely overwhelms us.   Alex Fullick ** 13:09 Yeah, I agree with you. You know, fear can be what's that to fight, flight or freeze? Yeah, and a lot of people don't know how to respond when an event happens. And I think I'm going to take a step back, and I think that goes back to when we're young as well, because we have our parents, our grandparents, our teachers, our principals. You know, you can go achieve your goals, like everything is positive. You can go do that. Go do that. They don't teach you that, yeah, to achieve those goals, you're going to hit some roadblocks, and you need to understand how to deal with that when things occur. And use your example with the fires in California. If you don't know how to prepare for some of those small things, then when a big fire like that occurs, you're even less prepared. I have no idea how to deal with that, and it is. It's a really change in mindset and understanding that not everything is rosy. And unfortunately, a lot of people get told, or they get told, Oh, don't worry about it. It'll never happen. So great when it does happen. Well, then was that advice?   Michael Hingson ** 14:25 Yeah, I remember after September 11, a couple of months after, I called somebody who had expressed an interest in purchasing some tape backup products for from us at Quantum. And I hadn't heard from them, and so I reached out, and I said, So what's going on? How would you guys like to proceed? And this was an IT guy, and he said, Oh, well, the president of the company said September 11 happened, and so since they did, we're not going to have to worry about that anymore. So we're not going to go forward. Or worth doing anything to back up our data, and I'm sitting there going, you missed the whole point of what backup is all about. I didn't dare say that to him, but it isn't just about an emergency, but it's also about, what if you accidentally delete a file? Do you have a way to go back and get it? I mean, there's so many other parts to it, but this guy's boss just basically said, Well, it happened, so it's not going to happen now we don't have to worry about it. Yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 15:27 like you hear on the news. Well, it feels like daily, oh, once in 100 year storm, once in 100 year event, once in 100 year this. Well, take a look at the news. It's happening weekly, daily, yeah, yeah. One in 100   Michael Hingson ** 15:44 years thing, yeah. Nowadays, absolutely, there's so many things that are happening. California is going through a couple of major atmospheric rivers right now, as they're now calling it. And so Southern California is getting a lot of rain because of of one of the rivers, and of course, it has all the burn areas from the fires. So I don't know what we'll see in the way of mudslides, but the rain is picking up. Even here, where I live, we're going to get an inch or more of rain, and usually we don't get the rain that a lot of other places get. The clouds have to go over a lot of mountains to get to us, and they lose their moisture before they do that. Yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 16:23 yeah. We just had a whole pile of snow here. So we had a snowstorm yesterday. So we've got about 20 centimeters of snow out there that hasn't been plowed yet. So bit of   Michael Hingson ** 16:36 a mess. There you go. Well, you know, go out and play on the snow. Well,   Alex Fullick ** 16:41 the dog loves it, that's for sure. Like troubling it, but, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 16:46 I don't think my cat would like it, but the animal would like it. He'd go out and play in it. If it were here, we don't get much snow here, but Yeah, he'd play it. But, but it is. It is so interesting to really talk about this whole issue of of business continuity, emergency preparedness, whatever you want to consider it, because it's it's more than anything. It's a mindset, and it is something that people should learn to do in their lives in general, because it would help people be a lot more prepared. If people really created a mindset in themselves about dealing with unexpected things, probably they'd be a little bit more prepared physically for an emergency, but they would certainly be in a lot better shape to deal with something as like the fires are approaching, but they don't, but we don't do that. We don't teach that.   Alex Fullick ** 17:43 No, we it's interesting too, that a lot of those people, they'll work on projects in their organization, you know, and they will look at things well, what can go wrong, you know, and try to mitigate it and fix, you know, whatever issues are in the way or remove roadblocks. They're actually doing that as part of their project. But when it comes to themselves, and they have to think about fires or something like that, is now that won't happen, you know. And wait a minute, how come you've got the right mindset when it comes to your projects at work, but you don't have that same mindset when it comes to your own well being, or your families, or whatever the case may be. How come it's different? You go from one side to the other and it I've noticed that a few times with people and like, I don't get it. Why? Why are you so you have the right mindset under one circumstance and the other circumstance, you completely ignore it and don't have the mindset,   Michael Hingson ** 18:45 yeah, which, which makes you wonder, how much of a mindset Do you really have when it comes to work in all aspects of it? And so one of the things that I remember after September 11, people constantly asked me is, who helped you down the stairs, or was there somebody who was responsible for coming to get you, to take you downstairs and and the reality is, as I said, I was the leader. I was helping other people go downstairs. But by the same token, I'm of the opinion that in buildings like the World Trade Center towers, there is people talk about the buddy system. So if somebody is is in the building, you should have a buddy. And it doesn't even need to be necessarily, in the same office, but there should be an arrangement so that there is somebody looking out for each each other person. So everybody should have a buddy. I'm of the opinion it isn't a buddy. There should be two buddies, and at least one of them has to be outside of the office, so that you have three people who have to communicate and develop those lines of communications and work through it. And by that way, you you have a. Better chance of making sure that more people get whatever communications are necessary.   Alex Fullick ** 20:06 Yeah, you create your like a support network, absolutely,   Michael Hingson ** 20:10 and I think at least a triumvirate makes a lot more sense than just a buddy. Yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 20:14 you you might be freaked out, you know, nervous shaking, but with a couple of people standing there, you know, talking to you, you're going to come right back hopefully. You know, with that, the calmer, you know, stop shaking when a couple of people are there. Yeah, you a lot of times when you have the same one person doing it, usually, oh, you're just saying that because you have to. But when you two people doing it, it's like, okay, thank thanks team. You know, like you're really helping. You know, this is much better.   Michael Hingson ** 20:48 Yeah, I think it makes a lot more sense, and especially if one of them isn't necessarily a person who's normally in your work pattern that brings somebody in from someone with the outside who approaches things differently because they don't necessarily know you or as well or in the same way as your buddy who's maybe next door to you in the office, right across the hall or next door, or whatever. Yeah, yeah. I agree. I think it makes sense well, the conference that we were at a lot to well, to a large degree, and at least for my presentation, was all about resilience. What is resilience to you? How's that for a general question that   Alex Fullick ** 21:31 has become such a buzzword, I know it   Michael Hingson ** 21:35 really is, and it's unfortunate, because when, when we start hearing, you know, resilience, or I hear all the time amazing and so many times we get all these buzzwords, and they they really lose a lot of their value when that happens. But still, that's a fair question. I   Alex Fullick ** 21:53 do think the word resilience is overused, and it's losing its meaning. You know, dictionary meaning, because it's just used for everything these days. Yeah, you know, my neighbor left her keys. Sorry. Her daughter took her house keys this morning by accident. She couldn't get into her house when she got him back, and she had a comment where she said, you know, oh, well, I'm resilient, but really, you just went and got some Keith, how was that so? So I'm, I'm starting to get to the point now, when people ask me, you know, what's resilience to you? What's it mean to you? I just, I start to say, Now, does it matter? Yeah, my definition is fine for me, if you have a definition of it for yourself that you understand you you know what it means, or your organization has a definition, we'll take it and run. Yeah, you know what it means. You're all behind that. Meaning. We don't need a vendor or some other guiding industry organization to say this is, this must be your definition of resilience. It's like, well, no, you're just wordsmithing and making it sound fancy. You know, do it means what it means to you? You know, how, how do you define it? If that's how you define it, that's what it means, and that's all that matters. My definition doesn't matter. Nobody else's definition matters, you know, because, and it's become that way because the term used, you know, for everything these days. Yeah, I   Michael Hingson ** 23:30 think that there's a lot of value in if a person is, if we use the dictionary definition, resilient, they they Well, again, from my definition, it gets back to the mindset you establish. You establish a mindset where you can be flexible, where you can adapt, and where you can sometimes think outside the box that you would normally think out of, but you don't panic to do that. You've learned how to address different things and be able to focus, to develop what you need to do to accomplish, whatever you need to accomplish at any unexpected time.   Alex Fullick ** 24:06 Yeah, and you're calm, level headed, you know, you've got that right mindset. You don't freak out over the small things, you know, you see the bigger picture. You understand it. You know, I'm here. That's where I need to go, and that's where you focus and, you know, sweat all those little things, you know. And I think, I think it's, it's kind of reminds me that the definitions that are being thrown out there now reminds me of some of those mission and vision statements that leadership comes up with in their organizations, with all this, oh, that, you know, you read the sentence and it makes no sense whatsoever, yeah, you know, like, what?   Michael Hingson ** 24:45 What's so, what's the wackiest definition of resilience that you can think of that you've heard?   Alex Fullick ** 24:51 Um, I don't know if there's a wacky one or an unusual one. Um, oh, geez. I. I know I've heard definitions of bounce forward, bounce back, you know, agility, adaptability. Well, your   Michael Hingson ** 25:07 car keys, lady this morning, your house key, your house key, lady this morning, the same thing, yeah, yeah. I don't resilient just because she got her keys back. Yeah, really, yeah. Well,   Alex Fullick ** 25:17 that's kind of a wacky example. Yeah, of one, but I don't think there's, I've heard any weird definitions yet. I'm sure that's probably some out there coming. Yeah, we'll get to the point where, how the heck did are you defining resilience with that? Yeah? And if you're looking at from that way, then yeah, my neighbor with the keys that would fit in right there. That's not resilient. You just went and picked up some keys.   Michael Hingson ** 25:45 Yeah. Where's the resilience? How did you adapt? You the resilience might be if you didn't, the resilience might be if you didn't panic, although I'm sure that didn't happen. But that would, that would lean toward the concept of resilience. If you didn't panic and just went, Well, I I'll go get them. Everything will be fine, but that's not what people do,   Alex Fullick ** 26:08 yeah? Well, that that is what she did, actually. She just as I was shoveling snow this morning, she goes, Oh, well, I'll just go get her, get them, okay, yeah. Does that really mean resilience, or Does that just mean you went to pick up the keys that your daughter accidentally took   Michael Hingson ** 26:24 and and you stayed reasonably level headed about it,   Alex Fullick ** 26:28 you know, you know. So, you know, I don't know, yeah, if, if I would count that as a definition of resilience, but, or even I agree resilience, it's more of okay, yeah, yeah. If, if it's something like that, then that must mean I'm resilient when I forget to pull the laundry out after the buzzer. Oh yeah, I gotta pull the laundry out. Did that make me resilient? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 26:52 absolutely, once you pulled it out, you weren't resilient, not until then,   Alex Fullick ** 26:57 you know. So, so I guess it's you know, how people but then it comes down to how people want to define it too. Yeah, if they're happy with that definition, well, if it makes you happy, I'm not going to tell you to change   Michael Hingson ** 27:11 it. Yeah, has but, but I think ultimately there are some some basic standards that get back to what we talked about earlier, which is establishing a mindset and being able to deal with things that come out of the ordinary well, and you're in an industry that, by and large, is probably viewed as pretty negative, you're always anticipating the emergencies and and all the unexpected horrible things that can happen, the what if people again, but that's that's got to be, from a mindset standpoint, a little bit tough to deal with it. You're always dealing with this negative industry. How do you do that? You're resilient, I know. But anyway, yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 27:56 really, I just look at it from a risk perspective. Oh, could that happen to us? You know, no, it wouldn't, you know, we're we're in the middle of a Canadian Shield, or at least where I am. We're in the middle of Canadian Shield. There's not going to be two plates rubbing against each other and having an earthquake. So I just look at it from risk where we are, snowstorms, yep, that could hit us and has. What do we do? Okay, well, we close our facility, we have everyone work from home, you know, etc, etc. So I don't look at it from the perspective of doom and gloom. I look at it more of opportunity to make us better at what we do and how we prepare and how we respond and how we overcome, you know, situations that happen out there, and I don't look at it from the oh, here comes, you know, the disaster guy you know, always pointing out everything that's wrong. You know, I'd rather point out opportunities that we have to become as a team, organization or a person stronger. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 29:01 I guess it's not necessarily a disaster. And as I said earlier, it could very well be that some unexpected thing will happen that could be a very positive thing. But again, if we don't have the mindset to deal with that, then we don't and the reality is, the more that we work to develop a mindset to deal with unexpected things, the more quickly we can make a correct analysis of whatever is going on and move forward from it, as opposed to letting fear again overwhelm us, we can if we practice creating This mindset that says we really understand how to deal with unexpected situations, then we are in a position to be able to the more we practice it, deal with it, and move forward in a positive way. So it doesn't need to be a disaster. September 11 was a disaster by any standard, but as I tell people. People. While I am still convinced that no matter what anyone might think, we couldn't figure out that September 11 was going to happen, I'm not convinced that even if all the agencies communicated, they would have gotten it because and I talk about trust and teamwork a lot, as I point out, a team of 19 people kept their mouth shut, or a few more who were helping in the planning of it, and they pulled off something that basically brought the world to its knees. So I'm not convinced that we could have stopped September 11 from happening. At least I haven't heard something that convinces me of that yet. But what each of us has the ability to do is to determine how we deal with September 11. So we couldn't prevent it, but we can certainly all deal with or address the issue of, how do we deal with it going forward? Yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 30:52 I agree. I I was actually in a conversation with my niece a couple of months ago. We were up at the cottage, and she was talking about school, and, you know, some of the people that she goes to school with, and I said, Well, you're never going to be able to change other people. You know, what they think or what they do. I said, what you can control is your response. You know, if, if they're always picking on you, the reason they're picking on you is because they know they can get a rise out of you. They know they it. Whatever they're saying or doing is getting to you, so they're going to keep doing it because it's empowering for them. But you can take away that empowerment if you make the right choices on how you respond, if you just shrug and walk away. I'm simplifying it, of course, yeah, if you just shrug and walk away. Well, after a while, they're going to realize nothing I'm saying is getting through, and they'll move away from you. They'll they won't bug you anymore, because they can't get a rise out. They can't get a rise out of you. So the only thing you can control is how you respond, you know. And as you keep saying, it's the mindset. Change your mindset from response to, you know, I'm prepared for what this person's going to say, and I'm not going to let it bother me. Yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 32:08 Well, bullying is really all about that. Yeah, people can't bully if you don't let yourself be bullied. Yep, and whether it's social media and so many other things, you can't be bullied if you don't allow it and if you ignore it or move on or get help to deal with the issue if it gets serious enough, but you don't need to approach it from a shame or fear standpoint, or you or you shouldn't anyway, but that's unfortunately, again, all too often. What happens when we see a lot of teenage suicides and so on, because people are letting the bullies get a rise out of them, and the bullies win.   Alex Fullick ** 32:51 Yep, yep. And as I told her, I said, you just mentioned it too. If it gets out of hand or becomes physical, I said, then you have to take action. I don't mean turning around and swinging back. I said, No, step up. Go get someone who is has authority and can do something about it. Yeah, don't, don't run away. Just deal with it differently, you know. And don't, don't start the fight, because then you're just confirming that I'm the bully. I can do this again. Yeah, you're, you're giving them license to do what they want. Yeah, but stand up to them, or tell, depending on the situation, tell someone higher up in authority that can do something and make make a change, but you have to be calm when you do it.   Michael Hingson ** 33:39 I remember when I was at UC Irvine, when I was going to college, my had my first guide dog, Squire. He was a golden retriever, 64 pounds, the most gentle, wonderful dog you could ever imagine. And unfortunately, other students on campus would bring their dogs. It was a very big campus, pretty, in a sense, rural, and there were only about 2700 students. And a bunch of students would bring their dogs to school, and they would just turn the dogs loose, and they go off to class, and then they find their dogs at the end of the day. Unfortunately, some of the dogs developed into a pack, and one day, they decided they were going to come after my guide dog. I think I've told this story a couple times on on this podcast, but what happened was we were walking down a sidewalk, and the dogs were coming up from behind, and they were growling and so on. And squire, my guide dog, jerked away from me. I still held his leash, but he jerked out of his harness, out of my hand, and literally jumped up in the air, turned around and came down on all fours, hunkered down and growled at these dogs all in this the well, about a two second time frame, totally shocked the dogs. They just slunked away. Somebody was describing it to me later, and you know, the dog was very deliberate about what he did. Of course, after they left, he comes over and He's wagging his tail. Did I do good or what? But, but he was very deliberate, and it's a lesson to to deal with things. And he never attacked any of the dogs, but he wasn't going to let anything happen to him or me, and that's what loyalty is really all about. But if something had happened and that hadn't worked out the way expected, then I would have had to have gone off and and I, in fact, I did talk to school officials about the fact that these dogs were doing that. And I don't even remember whether anybody did anything, but I know I was also a day or so later going into one of the the buildings. Before he got inside, there was a guy I knew who was in a wheelchair, and another dog did come up and started to try to attack squire, this guy with in the wheelchair, pulled one of the arms off his chair and just lambasted the dog right across the head, made him back up. Yeah, you know. But it was that people shouldn't be doing what they allowed their dog. You know, shouldn't be doing that, but. But the bottom line is, it's still a lesson that you don't let yourself be bullied. Yeah, yep, and there's no need to do that, but it is a it's a pretty fascinating thing to to see and to deal with, but it's all about preparation. And again, if we teach ourselves to think strategically and develop that skill, it becomes just second nature to do it, which is, unfortunately, what we don't learn.   Alex Fullick ** 36:48 Yeah, I didn't know that as a kid, because when I was a little kid and first came to Canada, especially, I was bullied because, well, I had a funny voice.   Michael Hingson ** 36:57 You did? You don't have that anymore, by the way, no,   Alex Fullick ** 37:01 if I, if I'm with my mom or relatives, especially when I'm back in England, words will start coming back. Yeah, there are words that I do say differently, garage or garage, yeah. You know, I hate garage, but garage, yeah, I still say some words like that,   Michael Hingson ** 37:18 or process, as opposed to process.   Alex Fullick ** 37:21 Yeah, so, you know, there's something like that, but as a kid, I was bullied and I there was, was no talk of mindset or how to deal with it. It's either put up with it or, you know, you really couldn't turn to anybody back then, because nobody really knew themselves how to deal with it. Yeah, bullies had always been around. They were always in the playground. So the the mechanisms to deal with it weren't there either. It wasn't till much later that I'm able to to deal with that if someone said some of the things now, right away, I can turn around because I've trained myself to have a different mindset and say that, no, that's unacceptable. You can't talk to that person, or you can't talk to me that way. Yeah, you know, if you say it again, I will, you know, call the police or whatever. Never anything where I'm going to punch you in the chin, you know, or something like that. Never. That doesn't solve anything. No, stand up saying, you know, no, I'm not going to accept that. You know, which is easier now, and maybe that just comes with age or something, I don't know, but back then, no, it was, you know, that that kind of mechanism to deal with it, or finding that inner strength and mindset to do that wasn't there,   Michael Hingson ** 38:43 right? But when you started to work on developing that mindset, the more you worked on it, the easier it became to make it happen. Yep, agreed. And so now it's a way of life, and it's something that I think we all really could learn and should learn. And my book live like a guide dog is really all about that developing that mindset to control fear. And I just think it's so important that we really deal with it. And you know, in this country right now, we've got a government administration that's all about chaos and fear, and unfortunately, not nearly enough people have learned how to deal with that, which is too bad, yep, although,   Alex Fullick ** 39:30 go ahead, I was going to say it's a shame that, you know, some a lot of people haven't learned how to deal with that. Part of it, again, is we don't teach that as well. So sometimes the only thing some people know is fear and bullying, because that's all they've experienced, yeah, either as the bully or being bullied. So they they don't see anything different. So when it happens on a scale, what we see right now it. It's, well, that's normal, yeah, it's not normal, actually. You know, it's not something we should be doing. You know, you should be able to stand up to your bully, or stand up when you see something wrong, you know, and help because it's human nature to want to help other people. You know, there's been so many accidents people falling, or you'll need their snow removed, where I am, and people jump in and help, yeah? You know, without sometimes, a lot of times, they don't even ask. It's like, oh, let me give you a hand,   Michael Hingson ** 40:33 yeah. And we had that when we lived in New Jersey, like snow removal. We had a Boy Scout who started a business, and every year he'd come around and clear everybody's snow. He cleared our snow. He said, I am absolutely happy to do it. We we wanted to pay him for it, but he was, he was great, and we always had a nice, clean driveway. But you know, the other side of this whole issue with the mindset is if we take it in a more positive direction, look at people like Sully Sullenberger, the pilot and the airplane on the Hudson, how he stayed focused. He had developed the mindset and stayed focused so that he could deal with that airplane. That doesn't mean that he wasn't afraid and had concerns, but he was able to do something that was was definitely pretty fantastic, because he kept his cool, yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 41:23 I think he knew, and others in other situations know that if you're freaking out yourself, you're not going to fix the issue, you're going to make it worse. We see that in Hollywood tends to do that a lot. In their movies, there's always a character who's flipping out, you know, panicking, going crazy and making everything worse. Well, that does happen, you know, if you act that way, you're not going to resolve your situation, whatever you find yourself in, you know. And I tell people that in business continuity when we're having meetings, well, we'll figure it out when it happens. No, you don't know how you'll behave. You don't know how you'll respond when, oh, I don't know an active shooter or something. You have no idea when you hear that someone you know just got shot down in the lobby. Are you going to tell me you're going to be calm? You sorry? You know you're going to be calm and just okay, yeah, we can deal with it. No, you're going to get a wave of panic, yeah, or other emotions coming over you, you know. And you have to have that mindset. You can still be panicked and upset and freaked out, or however you want to describe that, but you know, I have to stay in control. I can't let that fear take over, or I'm going to get myself in that situation as well. Yeah, I have to be able to manage it. Okay, what do I have to do? I gotta go hide. You know, I'm not saying you're not sweating, you know, with nervousness like that, but you understand, gotta think beyond this if I want to get out of this situation. You know, I'm going to take these people that are sitting with me, we're going to go lock ourselves in the storage closet, or, you know, whatever, right? But have that wherewithal to be able to understand that and, you know, be be safe, you know, but freaking out, you're only contributing to the situation, and then you end up freaking out other people and getting them panicked. Course, you do. They're not, you know, they don't have the right mindset to deal with issues. And then you've got everyone going in every direction, nobody's helping each other. And then you're creating, you know, bigger issues, and   Michael Hingson ** 43:37 you lose more lives, and you create more catastrophes all the way around. I remember when I was going down the stairs at the World Trade Center, I kept telling Roselle what a good job she was doing, good girl. And I did that for a couple of reasons. The main reason was I wanted her to know that I was okay and I'm not going to be influenced by fear. But I wanted her to feel comfortable what what happened, though, as a result of that, and was a lesson for me. I got contacted several years later one time, specifically when I went to Kansas City to do a speech, and a woman said she wanted to come and hear me because she had come into the stairwell just after, or as we were passing her floor, which was, I think, the 54th floor. Then she said, I heard you just praising your dog and being very calm. And she said, I and other people just decided we're going to follow you down the stairs. And it was, it was a great lesson to understand that staying focused, no matter what the fear level was, really otherwise, staying focused and encouraging was a much more positive thing to do, and today, people still don't imagine how, in a sense, comet was going down the stairs, which doesn't mean that people weren't afraid. But several of us worked to really keep panic out of the stairwell as we were going down. My friend David did he panicked, but then he. He walked a floor below me and started shouting up to me whatever he saw on the stairwell, and that was really for his benefit. He said to have something to do other than thinking about what was going on, because he was getting pretty scared about it. But what David did by shouting up to me was he acted as a focal point for anyone on the stairs who could hear him, and they would hear him say things like, Hey, Mike, I'm at the 43rd floor. All's good here. Everyone who could hear him had someone on the stairs who was focused, sounded calm, and that they could listen to to know that everybody was okay, which was so cool, and   Alex Fullick ** 45:38 that that probably helped them realize, okay, we're in the right direction. We're going the right way. Someone is, you know, sending a positive comments. So if, if we've got, you know, three, if he's three floors below us, we know at least on the next three floors, everything is okay.   Michael Hingson ** 45:56 Well, even if they didn't know where he wasn't right, but even if he they didn't know where he was in relation to them, the fact is, they heard somebody on the stairs saying, I'm okay, yeah, whether he felt it, he did sound it all the way down the stairs. Yeah, and I know that he was panicking, because he did it originally, but he got over that. I snapped at him. I just said, Stop it, David, if Rosell and I can go down these stairs, so can you. And then he did. He focused, and I'm sure that he had to have helped 1000s of people going down the stairs, and helped with his words, keeping them calm.   Alex Fullick ** 46:32 Yeah, yeah. It makes a difference, you know. Like I said earlier, you doesn't mean you're still not afraid. Doesn't mean that, you know, you're not aware of the negative situation around you. It's and you can't change it, but you can change, like I said earlier, you can change how you respond to it. You can be in control that way, right? And that's eventually what, what he did, and you you were, you know, you were controlled going downstairs, you know, with with your guide dog, and with all these people following you, and because of the way you were, like, then they were following you, yeah, and they remained calm. It's like there's someone calling up from below who's safe. I can hear that. I'm listening to Michael. He'll tell his dog how well behaved they are. And he's going down calmly. Okay, you know, I can do this. And they start calming down,   Michael Hingson ** 47:28 yeah, what's the riskiest thing you've ever done? Oh, word. Must have taken a risk somewhere in the world, other than public speaking. Oh, yeah, public speaking.   Alex Fullick ** 47:40 I still get nervous the first minute. I'm still nervous when I go up, but you get used to it after a while. But that first minute, yeah, I'm nervous. Oh, that there's, I have a fear of heights and the so the the two, two things that still surprised me that I did is I climbed the Sydney bridge, Harbor Bridge, and, oh, there's another bridge. Where is it? Is it a Brisbane? They're both in Australia. Anyway. Climb them both and have a fear of heights. But I thought, no, I gotta, I gotta do this. You know, I can't be afraid of this my entire life. And I kept seeing all these people go up there in groups, you know, on tours. And so I said, Okay, I'm going to do this. And I was shaking nervous like crazy, and went, What if I fall off, you know, and there's so many different measures in place for to keep you safe. But that that was risky, you know, for me, it felt risky. I was exhilarated when I did it. Though, would you do it again? Oh, yeah, in a heartbeat. Now, there you go. I'm still afraid of heights, but I would do that again because I just felt fantastic. The other I guess going out and being self employed years ago was another risky thing. I had no idea, you know about incorporating myself, and, you know, submitting taxes, you know, business taxes, and, you know, government documents and all this and that, and invoicing and things like that. I had no idea about that. So that was kind of risky, because I had no idea how long I'd be doing it. Well, I started in what 2007, 2007, I think so, 18 years, yeah, so now it's like, I can't imagine myself not doing it, you know, so I'm but I'm always willing to try something new these days. You know, even starting the podcast seven and a half years ago was risky, right? I had no idea. Nobody was talking about my industry or resilience or business continuity or anything back then, I was the first one doing it, and I'm the longest one doing it. Um, I've outlived a lot of people who thought they could do it. I'm still going. So that started out risky, but now I. Imagine not doing it, yeah, you know. And you know, it's, you know, I guess it's, it's just fun to keep trying new things. You know, I keep growing and, you know, I've got other plans in the works. I can't give anything away, but, you know, I've got other plans to try. And they'll, they'll be risky as well. But it's like,   Michael Hingson ** 50:21 no, let's go for it. Have you ever done skydiving or anything like that? No, I haven't done that. I haven't either. I know some blind people who have, but I just, I've never done that. I wouldn't   Alex Fullick ** 50:32 mind it. It's that might be one of those lines where should I? I'm not sure about this one, you know, but it is something that I I think I wouldn't do it on my own. I think I would have to be one of those people who's connected with someone else, with someone   Michael Hingson ** 50:51 else, and that's usually the way blind people do it, needless to say, but, and that's fine, I just have never done it. I haven't ever had a need to do it, but I know I can sit here and say, I'm not afraid to do it. That is, I could do it if it came along, if there was a need to do it, but I don't. I don't have a great need to make that happen. But you know, I've had enough challenges in my life. As I tell people, I think I learned how to deal with surprises pretty early, because I've been to a lot of cities and like, like Boston used to have a rep of being a very accident prone city. Just the way people drive, I could start to cross the street and suddenly I hear a car coming around the corner, and I have to move one way or the other and draw a conclusion very quickly. Do I back up or do I go forward? Because the car is not doing what it's supposed to do, which is to stop, and I have to deal with that. So I think those kinds of experiences have helped me learn to deal with surprise a little bit too.   Alex Fullick ** 51:52 Yeah, well, with the skydiving, I don't think I'd go out of my way to do it, but exactly came along, I think I would, you know, just for the thrill of saying, I did it,   Michael Hingson ** 52:03 I did it, yeah, I went ice skating once, and I sprained my ankle as we were coming off the ice after being on the ice for three hours. And I haven't gone ice skating again since. I'm not really afraid to, but I don't need to do it. I've done it. I understand what it feels like. Yeah, yeah. So it's okay. Have you had any really significant aha moments in your life, things that just suddenly, something happened and went, Ah, that's that's what that is, or whatever.   Alex Fullick ** 52:30 Well, it does happen at work a lot, dealing with clients and people provide different perspectives, and you just, Oh, that's interesting, though, that happens all the time. Aha moments. Sometimes they're not always good. Aha moments, yeah, like the one I always remember that the most is when I wrote my first book, heads in the sand. I was so proud of it, and, you know, excited and sent off all these letters and marketing material to all the chambers of commerce across Canada, you know, thinking that, you know, everyone's going to want me to speak or present or buy my book. Well, ah, it doesn't happen that way. You know, I got no responses. But that didn't stop me from writing seven more books and working on nine. Now, there you go, but it was that was kind of a negative aha moment so, but I just learned, okay, that's not the way I should be doing that.   Michael Hingson ** 53:34 Put you in your place, but that's fair. I kind   Alex Fullick ** 53:37 of, I laugh at it now, a joke, but you know, aha, things you know, I You never know when they're going to happen.   Michael Hingson ** 53:47 No, that's why they're Aha, yeah.   Alex Fullick ** 53:51 And one of one, I guess another one would have been when I worked out first went out on my own. I had a manager who kept pushing me like, go, go work for yourself. You know this better than a lot of other people. Go, go do this. And I was too nervous. And then I got a phone call from a recruiting agency who was offering me a role to do where I wanted to take this company, but that I was working for full time for that weren't ready to go. They weren't ready yet. And it was kind of an aha moment of, do I stay where I am and maybe not be happy? Or have I just been given an opportunity to go forward? So when I looked at it that way, it did become an aha moment, like, Ah, here's my path forward. Yeah, so, you know. And that was way back in 2007 or or so somewhere around there, you know. So the aha moments can be good. They can be bad, and, you know, but as long as you learn from them, that's exactly   Michael Hingson ** 54:57 right. The that's the neat thing about. Aha moments. You don't expect them, but they're some of the best learning opportunities that you'll ever get.   Alex Fullick ** 55:06 Yeah, yeah, I agree completely, because you never know that. That's the nice thing, and I think that's also part of what I do when I'm working with so many different people of different levels is they all have different experiences. They all have different backgrounds. You they can all be CEOs, but they all come from a different direction and different backgrounds. So they're all going to be offering something new that's going to make you sit there and go, Oh, yeah. And thought of that before,   Michael Hingson ** 55:38 yeah. So that's, that's so cool, yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 55:42 but you have to, you know, be able to listen and pick up on those kind of things.   Michael Hingson ** 55:46 But you've been very successful. What are some of the secrets of success that that that you've discovered, or that you put to use?   Alex Fullick ** 55:55 For me, I'll put it bluntly, shut up and listen.   Michael Hingson ** 55:59 There you are. Yeah. Well, that is so true. That's true. Yeah.   Alex Fullick ** 56:03 I think I've learned more by just using my two ears rather than my one mouth, instead of telling people everything they you should be doing. And you know, this is what I think you should do. And like talking at people, it's so much better just talk with people, and then they'll, even if you're trying to, you know, really, really, really, get them to see your side, they will come onto your side easier and probably better if you let them realize it themselves. So you just listen, and you ask the odd probing question, and eventually comes around, goes, Oh, yeah, I get it. What you mean now by doing this and going, Yeah, that's where I was going. I guess I just wasn't saying it right, you know. And have being humble enough to, you know, even though I, I know I did say it right, maybe I just wasn't saying it right to that person, to that person, yeah, right way. So listening to them, and, you know, I think, is one of the big keys to success for me, it has, you know, and I've learned twice as much that way. And maybe that's why I enjoy answering people on the podcast, is because I ask a couple of questions and then just let people talk,   Michael Hingson ** 57:18 which is what makes it fun. Yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 57:21 yeah. It's sometimes it's fun to just sit there, not say anything, just let someone else do all the talking.   Michael Hingson ** 57:29 What you know your industry is, I would assume, evolved and changed over the years. What are some of the major changes, some of the ways that the industry has evolved. You've been in it a long time, and certainly, business continuity, disaster recovery, whatever you want to call it, has, in some sense, has become a little bit more of a visible thing, although I think people, as both said earlier, ignore it a lot. But how's the industry changed over time?   Alex Fullick ** 57:54 Well, when I started, it was before y 2k, yes, 96 and back then, when I first started, everything was it focused. If your mainframe went down, your computer broke. That's the direction everyone came from. And then it was you added business continuity on top of that. Okay, now, what do we do with our business operations. You know, other things we can do manually while they fix the computer or rebuild the mainframe. And then it went to, okay, well, let's bring in, you know, our help desk. You know, who people call I've got a problem with a computer, and here's our priority and severity. Okay, so we'll get, we'll respond to your query in 12 hours, because it's only one person, but if there's 10 people who have the issue, now it becomes six hours and bringing in those different aspects. So we went from it disaster recovery to business continuity to then bringing in other disciplines and linking to them, like emergency management, crisis management, business continuity, incident management, cyber, information security. Now we've got business continuity management, you know, bringing all these different teams together and now, or at least on some level, not really integrating very well with each other, but just having an awareness of each other, then we've moved to operational resilience, and again, that buzzword where all these teams do have to work together and understand what each other is delivering and the value of each of them. And so it just keeps growing in that direction where it started off with rebuild a mainframe to getting everybody working together to keep your operations going, to keep your partners happy, to keep your customers happy. You know, ensuring life safety is priority number one. When, when I started, life safety was, wasn't really thrown into the business continuity realm that much. It was always the focus on the business. So the these. The sky, the size and scope has gotten a lot bigger and more encompassing of other areas. And I wouldn't necessarily all call that business continuity, you know it, but it is. I see business continuity as a the hub and a wheel, rather than a spoke, to bring all the different teams together to help them understand, you know, hey, here's, here's how you've Incident Management, you know, help desk, service desk, here's how you help the Disaster Recovery Team. Here's how you can help the cyber team. Cyber, here's how you can actually help this team, you know, and being able to understand. And that's where the biggest change of things is going is now, more and more people are understanding how they really need to work together, rather than a silo, which you know, a lot of organizations still do, but it's those walls are starting to come down, because they can understand no One can do it alone. You have to work together with your internal departments, leadership, data analysts, who have to be able to figure out how to rebuild data, or your third parties. We need to talk with them. We have to have a relationship with them our supply chain, and understand where they're going, what they have in place, if we or they experience something. So it's definitely grown in size and scope   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:27 well, and we're seeing enough challenges that I think some people are catching on to the fact that they have to learn to work together, and they have to think in a broader base than they have in the past, and that's probably a good thing. Yeah, well, if, if you had the opportunity, what would you tell the younger Alex?   Alex Fullick ** 1:01:50 Run, run for the hills. Yeah, really, no, seriously, I kind of mentioned a couple of them already. Don't sweat the small things. You know, sometimes, yeah, and I think that comes down to our mindset thing as well. You know, understand your priorities and what's important. If it's not a priority or important, don't sweat it. Don't be afraid to take risks if you if you do your planning, whether it be jumping out of a plane or whatever, you know the first thing you want to do is what safety measures are in place to ensure that my jump will be successful. You know, those kind of things. Once you understand that, then you can make knowledgeable decisions. Don't be afraid to take those risks. And it's one of the big things. It's it's okay to fail, like I said about the book thing where you all those that marketing material I sent out, it's okay to fail. Learn from it. Move on. I can laugh at those kind of things now. You know, for years, I couldn't I was really like, oh my god, what I do wrong? It's like, No, I didn't do anything wrong. It just wasn't the right time. Didn't do it the right way. Okay, fine, move on. You know, you know, don't be afraid to fail. If, if you, if you fail and get up, well then is it really a failure? You learned, you got back up and you kept going. And that's the part of resilience too, right? Yeah, if you trip and fall, you get up and keep going. But if you trip and fall and stay down, well then maybe you are   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:30 failing. That's the failure. I mean, the reality is that it isn't failure if you learn from it and move on. It was something that set you back, but that's okay, yeah,   Alex Fullick ** 1:03:41 my my favorite band, Marillion, has a line in one of their songs rich. Failure isn't about falling down. Failure is staying down. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:50 I would agree with that. Completely agree   Alex Fullick ** 1:03:53 with it. He'll stand by it. W

Jeffrey Madoff is, as you will discover, quite a fascinating and engaging person. Jeff is quite the creative entrepreneur as this episode's title says. But he really is so much more.   He tells us that he came by his entrepreneurial spirit and mindset honestly. His parents were both entrepreneurs and passed their attitude onto him and his older sister. Even Jeffrey's children have their own businesses.   There is, however, so much more to Jeffrey Madoff. He has written a book and is working on another one. He also has created a play based on the life of Lloyd Price. Who is Lloyd Price? Listen and find out. Clue, the name of the play is “Personality”. Jeff's next book, “Casting Not Hiring”, with Dan Sullivan, is about the transformational power of theater and how you can build a company based on the principles of theater. It will be published by Hay House and available in November of this year.   My conversation with Jeff is a far ranging as you can imagine. We talk about everything from the meaning of Creativity to Imposture's Syndrome. I always tell my guests that Unstoppable Mindset is not a podcast to interview people, but instead I want to have real conversations. I really got my wish with Jeff Madoff. I hope you like listening to this episode as much as I liked being involved in it.       About the Guest:   Jeffrey Madoff's career straddles the creative and business side of the arts. He has been a successful entrepreneur in fashion design and film, and as an author, playwright, producer, and adjunct professor at Parsons School of Design. He created and taught a course for sixteen years called “Creative Careers Making A Living With Your Ideas”, which led to a bestselling book of the same name . Madoff has been a keynote speaker at Princeton, Wharton, NYU and Yale where he curated and moderated a series of panels entitled "Reframing The Arts As Entrepreneurship”. His play “Personality” was a critical and audience success in it's commercial runs at People's Light Theater in Pennsylvania and in Chicago and currently waiting for a theater on The West End in London.   Madoff's next book, “Casting Not Hiring”, with Dan Sullivan, is about the transformational power of theater and how you can build a company based on the principles of theater. It will be published by Hay House and available in November of this year. Ways to connect Jeffrey:   company website: www.madoffproductions.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/b-jeffrey-madoff-5baa8074/ www.acreativecareer.com Instagram: @acreativecareer   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well, hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. We're glad to have you on board with us, wherever you happen to be. Hope the day is going well for you. Our guest today is Jeffrey Madoff, who is an a very creative kind of person. He has done a number of things in the entrepreneurial world. He has dealt with a lot of things regarding the creative side of the arts. He's written plays. He taught a course for 16 years, and he'll tell us about that. He's been a speaker in a variety of places. And I'm not going to go into all of that, because I think it'll be more fun if Jeffrey does it. So welcome to unstoppable mindset. We are really glad you're here and looking forward to having an hour of fun. And you know, as I mentioned to you once before, the only rule on the podcast is we both have to have fun, or it's not worth doing, right? So here   Jeffrey Madoff ** 02:13 we are. Well, thanks for having me on. Michael, well, we're really glad   Michael Hingson ** 02:17 you're here. Why don't we start as I love to do tell us kind of about the early Jeffrey growing up, and you know how you got where you are, a little bit or whatever.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 02:28 Well, I was born in Akron, Ohio, which at that time was the rubber capital of the world. Ah, so that might explain some of my bounce and resilience. There   Michael Hingson ** 02:40 you go. I was in Sandusky, Ohio last weekend, nice and cold, or last week,   Jeffrey Madoff ** 02:44 yeah, I remember you were, you were going to be heading there. And, you know, Ohio, Akron, which is in northern Ohio, was a great place to grow up and then leave, you know, so my my childhood. I have many, many friends from my childhood, some who still live there. So it's actually I always enjoy going back, which doesn't happen all that often anymore, you know, because certain chapters in one's life close, like you know, when my when my parents died, there wasn't as much reason to go back, and because the friends that I had there preferred to come to New York rather than me go to Akron. But, you know, Akron was a great place to live, and I'm very fortunate. I think what makes a great place a great place is the people you meet, the experiences you have. Mm, hmm, and I met a lot of really good people, and I was very close with my parents, who were entrepreneurs. My mom and dad both were so I come by that aspect of my life very honestly, because they modeled the behavior. And I have an older sister, and she's also an entrepreneur, so I think that's part of the genetic code of our family is doing that. And actually, both of my kids have their own business, and my wife was entrepreneurial. So some of those things just carry forward, because it's kind of what, you know, what did your parents do? My parents were independent retailers, and so they started by working in other stores, and then gradually, both of them, who were also very independent people, you know, started, started their own store, and then when they got married, they opened one together, and it was Women's and Children's retail clothing. And so I learned, I learned a lot from my folks, mainly from the. Behavior that I saw growing up. I don't think you can really lecture kids and teach them anything, yeah, but you can be a very powerful teacher through example, both bad and good. Fortunately, my parents were good examples. I think   Michael Hingson ** 05:14 that kids really are a whole lot more perceptive than than people think sometimes, and you're absolutely right, lecturing them and telling them things, especially when you go off and do something different than you tell them to do, never works. They're going to see right through it.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 05:31 That's right. That's right. And you know, my kids are very bright, and there was never anything we couldn't talk about. And I had that same thing with my parents, you know, particularly my dad. But I had the same thing with both my parents. There was just this kind of understanding that community, open communication is the best communication and dealing with things as they came up was the best way to deal with things. And so it was, it was, it was really good, because my kids are the same way. You know, there was always discussions and questioning. And to this day, and I have twins, I have a boy and girl that are 31 years old and very I'm very proud of them and the people that they have become, and are still becoming,   Michael Hingson ** 06:31 well and still becoming is really the operative part of that. I think we all should constantly be learning, and we should, should never decide we've learned all there is to learn, because that won't happen. There's always something new,   Jeffrey Madoff ** 06:44 and that's really what's fun. I think that you know for creativity and life at large, that constant curiosity and learning is fuel that keeps things moving forward, and can kindle the flame that lights up into inspiration, whether you're writing a book or a song or whatever it is, whatever expression one may have, I think that's where it originates. Is curiosity. You're trying to answer a question or solve a problem or something. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 07:20 and sometimes you're not, and it's just a matter of doing. And it doesn't always have to be some agenda somewhere, but it's good to just be able to continue to grow. And all too often, we get so locked into agendas that we don't look at the rest of the world around us.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 07:41 I Well, I would say the the agenda in and of itself, staying curious, I guess an overarching part of my agenda, but it's not to try to get something from somebody else, right, other than knowledge, right? And so I guess I do have an agenda in that. That's what I find interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 08:02 I can accept that that makes sense.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 08:06 Well, maybe one of the few things I say that does so thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 08:10 I wasn't even thinking of that as an agenda, but just a way of life. But I hear what you're saying. It makes sense. Oh, there are   Jeffrey Madoff ** 08:17 people that I've certainly met you may have, and your listeners may have, also that there always is some kind of, I wouldn't call it agenda, a transactional aspect to what they're doing. And that transactional aspect one could call an agenda, which isn't about mutual interest, it's more what I can get and or what I can sell you, or what I can convince you of, or whatever. And I to me, it's the the process is what's so interesting, the process of questioning, the process of learning, the process of expressing, all of those things I think are very powerful, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 09:03 yeah, I hear what you're saying. So for you, you were an Akron did you go to college there? Or what did you do after high school? So   Jeffrey Madoff ** 09:11 after high school, I went to the University of Wisconsin, ah, Madison, which is a fantastic place. That's right, badgers, that's right. And, and what really cinched the deal was when I went to visit the school. I mean, it was so different when I was a kid, because, you know, nowadays, the kids that my kids grew up with, you know, the parents would visit 18 schools, and they would, you know, they would, they would file for admission to 15 schools. And I did one in my parents. I said to them, can I take the car? I want to go check out the University. I was actually looking at Northwestern and the University of Wisconsin. And. And I was in Evanston, where Northwestern is located. I didn't see any kids around, and, you know, I had my parents car, and I finally saw a group of kids, and I said, where is everybody? I said, Well, it's exam week. Everybody's in studying. Oh, I rolled up the window, and without getting out of the car, continued on to Madison. And when I got to Madison, I was meeting somebody behind the Student Union. And my favorite band at that time, which was the Paul Butterfield blues band, was giving a free concert. So I went behind the Student Union, and it's a beautiful, idyllic place, lakes and sailboats and just really gorgeous. And my favorite band is giving a free concert. So decision made, I'm going University of Wisconsin, and it was a great place.   Michael Hingson ** 10:51 I remember when I was looking at colleges. We got several letters. Got I wanted to major in physics. I was always science oriented. Got a letter from Dartmouth saying you ought to consider applying, and got some other letters. We looked at some catalogs, and I don't even remember how the subject came up, but we discovered this University California campus, University California at Irvine, and it was a new campus, and that attracted me, because although physically, it was very large, there were only a few buildings on it. The total population of undergraduates was 2700 students, not that way today, but it was back when I went there, and that attracted me. So we reached out to the chair of the physics department, whose name we got out of the catalog, and asked Dr Ford if we could come and meet with him and see if he thought it would be a good fit. And it was over the summer between my junior and senior year, and we went down, and we chatted with him for about an hour, and he he talked a little physics to me and asked a few questions, and I answered them, and he said, you know, you would do great here. You should apply. And I did, and I was accepted, and that was it, and I've never regretted that. And I actually went all the way through and got my master's degree staying at UC Irvine, because it was a great campus. There were some professors who weren't overly teaching oriented, because they were so you research oriented, but mostly the teachers were pretty good, and we had a lot of fun, and there were a lot of good other activities, like I worked with the campus radio station and so on. So I hear what you're saying, and it's the things that attract you to a campus. Those count. Oh,   Jeffrey Madoff ** 12:35 yeah. I mean, because what can you really do on a visit? You know, it's like kicking the tires of a car, right? You know? Does it feel right? Is there something that I mean, sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you do meet a faculty member or someone that you really connect with, and that causes you to really like the place, but you don't really know until you're kind of there, right? And Madison ended up being a wonderful choice. I loved it. I had a double major in philosophy and psychology. You know, my my reasoning being, what two things do I find really interesting that there is no path to making a good income from Oh, philosophy and psychology. That works   Michael Hingson ** 13:22 well you possibly can from psychology, but philosophy, not hardly   Jeffrey Madoff ** 13:26 No, no. But, you know, the thing that was so great about it, going back to the term we used earlier, curiosity in the fuel, what I loved about both, you know, philosophy and psychology used to be cross listed. They were this under the same heading. It was in 1932 when the Encyclopedia Britannica approached Sigmund Freud to write a separate entry for psychology, and that was the first time the two disciplines, philosophy and psychology, were split apart, and Freud wrote that entry, and forever since, it became its own discipline, but the questions that one asks, or the questions that are posed in Both philosophy and psychology, I still, to this day, find fascinating. And, you know, thinking about thinking and how you think about things, I always find very, very interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 14:33 Yeah, and the whole, the whole process, how do you get from here to there? How do you deal with anything that comes up, whether it's a challenge or just fulfilling the life choices that you make and so on. And philosophy and psychology, in a sense, I think, really are significantly different, but they're both very much thinking oriented.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 14:57 Oh, absolutely, it. And you know, philosophy means study of life, right? What psychology is, yeah, so I understand why they were bonded, and now, you know, understand why they also separated. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 15:15 I'll have to go look up what Freud said. I have never read that, but I will go find it. I'm curious. Yeah,   Jeffrey Madoff ** 15:23 it's it's so interesting. It's so interesting to me, because whether you believe in Freud or not, you if you are knowledgeable at all, the impact that he had on the world to this day is staggeringly significant. Yeah, because nobody was at posing those questions before, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 15:46 yeah. And there's, there's no doubt that that he has had a major contribution to a lot of things regarding life, and you're right, whether you buy into the view that he had of a lot of things isn't, isn't really the issue, but it still is that he had a lot of relevant and interesting things to say, and he helps people think that's right, that's right. Well, so what did you do? So you had a double major? Did you go on and do any advanced degree work? No,   Jeffrey Madoff ** 16:17 you know it was interesting because I had thought about it because I liked philosophy so much. And I approached this professor who was very noted, Ivan Saul, who was one of the world Hegelian scholars, and I approached him to be my advisor. And he said, Why do you want me to be your advisor? And I said, because you're one of the most published and respected authors on that subject. And if I'm going to have an advisor, I might as well go for the person that might help me the most and mean the most if I apply to graduate schools. So I did in that case certainly had an agenda. Yeah, and, and he said, you know, Jeff, I just got back from the world Hegelian conference in Munich, and I found it very depressing as and he just paused, and I said, why'd you find it depressing? And he said, Well, there's only one or two other people in the world that I can speak to about Hegel. And I said, Well, maybe you want to choose a different topic so you can make more friends. That depressing. That doesn't sound like it's a mix, you know, good fit for life, right? But so I didn't continue to graduate studies. I took graduate courses. I started graduate courses the second semester of my sophomore year. But I thought, I don't know. I don't want to, I don't want to gain this knowledge that the only thing I can do is pass it on to others. It's kind of like breathing stale air or leaving the windows shut. I wanted to be in a world where there was an idea exchange, which I thought would be a lot more interesting. Yeah. And so there was a brief period where I thought I would get a doctorate and do that, and I love teaching, but I never wanted to. That's not what I wanted to pursue for those reasons.   Michael Hingson ** 18:35 So what did you end up doing then, once you got   Jeffrey Madoff ** 18:37 out of college? Well, there was a must have done something I did. And there's a little boutique, and in Madison that I did the buying for. And it was this very hip little clothing store. And Madison, because it was a big campus, you know, in the major rock bands would tour, they would come into the store because we had unusual things that I would find in New York, you know, when I was doing the buying for it, and I get a phone call from a friend of mine, a kid that I grew up with, and he was a year older, he had graduated school a year before me, and he said, Can you think of a gig that would earn more than bank interest? You know, I've saved up this money. Can you think of anything? And I said, Well, I see what we design. I mean, I see what we sell, and I could always draw. So I felt like I could design. I said, I'll start a clothing company. And Michael, I had not a clue in terms of what I was committing myself to. I was very naive, but not stupid. You know, was ignorant, but not stupid. And different. The difference between being ignorant and being stupid is ignorant. You can. Learn stupids forever, yeah, and that started me on this learning lesson, an entrepreneurial learning lesson, and there was, you know, quite formative for me. And the company was doubling in size every four months, every three months, and it was getting pretty big pretty quick. And you know, I was flying by the seat of my pants. I didn't really know what I was doing, but what I discovered is I had, you know, saleable taste. And I mean, when I was working in this store, I got some of the sewers who did the alterations to make some of my drawings, and I cut apart a shirt that I liked the way it fit, so I could see what the pieces are, and kind of figure out how this all worked. So but when I would go to a store and I would see fabric on the bolt, meaning it hadn't been made into anything, I was so naive. I thought that was wholesale, you know, which it wasn't and but I learned quickly, because it was like you learn quickly, or you go off the edge of a cliff, you go out of business. So it taught me a lot of things. And you know the title of your podcast, the unstoppable, that's part of what you learn in business. If you're going to survive, you've gotta be resilient enough to get up, because you're going to get knocked down. You have to persevere, because there are people that are going to that you're competing with, and there are things that are things that are going to happen that are going to make you want to give up, but that perseverance, that resilience, I think probably creativity, is third. I think it's a close call between perseverance and resilience, because those are really important criteria for a personality profile to have if you're going to succeed in business as an entrepreneur.   Michael Hingson ** 22:05 You know, Einstein once said, or at least he's credited with saying, that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, right and and the reality is that good, resilient. People will look at things that didn't go right, and if they really look at them, they'll go, I didn't fail. Yeah, maybe I didn't go right. I may have made a mistake, or something wasn't quite right. What do I do to fix it so that the next time, we won't have the same problem? And I think that's so important. I wrote my book last year, live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith. And it's all about learning to control fear, but it's also all about learning from dogs. I've had eight guide dogs, and my wife had a service dog, and it's all about learning from dogs and seeing why they live in an environment where we are and they feed off of us, if you will. But at the same time, what they don't do is fear like we do. They're open to trust, and we tend not to be because we worry about so many things, rather than just looking at the world and just dealing with our part of it. So it is, it is interesting to to hear you talk about resilience. I think you're absolutely right that resilience is extremely important. Perseverance is important, and they do go together, but you you have to analyze what it is that makes you resilient, or what it is that you need to do to keep being resilient.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 23:48 Well, you're right. And one of the questions that you alluded to the course that I taught for 16 years at Parsons School of Design, which was my course, was called creative careers, making a living with your ideas. And I would ask the students, how many of you are afraid of failing? And probably more than three quarters of the class, their hands went up, and I said to them, you know, if that fear stops you, you'll never do anything interesting, because creativity, true creativity, by necessity, takes you up to and beyond the boundaries. And so it's not going to be always embraced. And you know, failure, I think everyone has to define it for themselves. But I think failure, to me, is and you hear that, you know, failure is a great way to learn. I mean, it's a way. To learn, but it's never not painful, you know, and it, but it is a way to learn if you're paying attention and if you are open to that notion, which I am and was, because, you know, that kind of risk is a necessary part of creativity, going where you hadn't gone before, to try to find solutions that you hadn't done before, and seeing what works. And of course, there's going to be things that don't, but it's only failure if you stop doing what is important to you. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 25:39 well, I think you're absolutely right. And one of the things that I used to do and still do, but it started when I was working as program director of our radio station at UC Irvine, was I wanted people to hear what they sounded like on the radio, because I always listened to what I said, and I know it helped me, but getting the other radio personalities to listen to themselves was was well, like herding cats, it just wasn't doable. And what we finally did is we set up, I and the engineer of the radio station, set up a recorder in a locked cabinet, and whenever the board went on in the main studio, the microphone went on, it recorded. So we didn't need to worry about the music. All we wanted was what the people said, and then we would give people the cassettes. And one of the things that I started saying then, and I said it until, like about a year ago, was, you know, you're your own worst critic, if you can learn to grow from it, or if you can learn to see what's a problem and go on, then that's great. What I learned over the last year and thought about is I'm really not my own worst critic. I'm my own best teacher, because I'm the only one who can really teach me anything, and it's better to shape it in a positive way. So I am my own best teacher. And so I think you're right. If you really want to talk about the concept of failure, failure is when you won't get back up. Failure is when you won't do anything to learn and grow from whatever happens to you, even the good stuff. Could I have done it better? Those are all very important things to do.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 27:19 No, I agree. So why did you think it was important for them to hear their voice?   Michael Hingson ** 27:25 Because I wanted them to hear what everyone else heard. I wanted them to hear what they sounded like to their listeners. And the reality is, when we got them to do that, it was, I say it was incredible, but it wasn't a surprise to me how much better they got. And some of those people ended up going into radio broadcasting, going into other kinds of things, but they really learned to hear what everyone else heard. And they they learned how to talk better. They learn what they really needed to improve upon, or they learn what wasn't sounding very good to everyone else, and they changed their habits.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 28:13 Interesting, interesting. So, so part of that also helps them establish a certain on air identity. I would imagine finding their own voice, so to speak, right,   Michael Hingson ** 28:30 or finding a better voice than they than they had, and certainly a better voice than they thought they had. Well, they thought they had a good voice, and they realized maybe it could be better. And the ones who learned, and most of them really did learn from it, came out the better for it.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 28:49 So let me ask you a personal question. You have been sightless since birth? Is that correct?   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 Yeah, I've been blind since birth. And   Jeffrey Madoff ** 28:59 so on a certain level, I was trying to think about this the other night, and how can I phrase this? On a certain level, you don't know what you look like,   Michael Hingson ** 29:15 and from the standpoint of how you look at it, yeah, yeah.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 29:19 And so, so two, that's two questions. One is so many of us for good and bad, our identity has to do with visual first, how do you assess that new person?   Michael Hingson ** 29:39 I don't look at it from a visual standpoint as such. I look at it from all the other senses that I have and use, but I also listen to the person and see how we interact and react to. Each other, and from that, I can draw pretty good conclusions about what an individual is like, so that I can decide if that's a a lovely person, male or female, because I'm using lovely in the sense of it's the kind of person I want to know or not, and so I don't obviously look at it from a visual standpoint. And although I know Helen Keller did it some, I'm not into feeling faces. When I was in college, I tried to convince girls that they should let me teach them Braille, but they had no interest in me showing them Braille, so we didn't do that. I actually a friend of mine and I once went to a girls dorm, and we put up a sign. Wanted young female assistant to aid in scientific Braille research, but that didn't go anywhere either. So we didn't do it. But so Braille pickup. Oh, Braille pickup. On the other hand, I had my guide dog who was in in my current guide dog is just the same chick magnet right from the get go, but, but the the reality is that visual is, I think there's a lot to be said for beauty is only skin deep in a lot of ways. And I think that it's important that we go far beyond just what one person looks like. People ask me all the time, well, if you could see again, would you? Or if you could see, would you? And my response is, I don't need to. I think there's value in it. It is a sense. I think it would be a great adventure, but I'm not going to spend my life worrying about that. Blindness isn't what defines me, and what defines me is how I behave, how I am, how I learn and grow, and what I do to be a part of society and and hopefully help society. I think that's more important.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 31:53 You know, I agree with you, and it's it's also having been blind since birth. It's not like you had a you had an aspect that you lost for some reason, right?   Michael Hingson ** 32:04 But I know some people who became blind later in life, who attended centers where they could learn about what it was like to be blind and learn to be a blind person and and really adapted to that philosophy and continue to do what they did even before they lost their their eyesight, and were just as successful as they ever were, because it wasn't so much about having eyesight, although that is a challenge when you lose it, but it was more important to learn that you could find alternatives to do the same things that you did before. So   Jeffrey Madoff ** 32:41 if you ever have read Marvel Comics, and you know Daredevil has a heightened sense of a vision, or you know that certain things turn into a different advantage, is there that kind of in real life, compensatory heightened awareness of other senses.   Michael Hingson ** 33:08 And the answer is not directly. The answer is, if you choose to heighten those senses and learn to use them, then they can be a help. It's like SEAL Team Six, or Rangers, or whatever, they learn how to observe. And for them, observing goes far beyond just using their eyesight to be able to spot things, although they they certainly use that, but they have heightened all of their other senses because they've trained them and they've taught themselves how to use those senses. It's not an automatic process by any definition at all. It's not automatic. You have to learn to do it. There are some blind people who have, have learned to do that, and there are a number that have not. People have said, well, you know, could any blind person get out of the World Trade Center, and like you did, and my response is, it depends on the individual, not necessarily, because there's so many factors that go into it. If you are so afraid when something like the World Trade Center events happen that you become blinded by fear, then you're going to have a much harder time getting out than if you let fear be a guide and use it to heighten the senses that you have during the time that you need that to occur. And that's one of the things that live like a guide dog is all about, is teaching people to learn to control fear, so that in reality, they find they're much more effective, because when something happens, they don't expect they adopt and adapt to having a mindset that says, I can get through this, and fear is going to help.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 34:53 That's fascinating. So one I could go on in this direction, I'll ask you, one, one other. Question is, how would you describe your dreams?   Michael Hingson ** 35:08 Probably the same way you would, except for me, dreaming is primarily in audio and other interactions and not using eyesight. But at the same time, I understand what eyesight is about, because I've thought about it a lot, and I appreciate that the process is not something that I have, but I understand it, and I can talk about light and eyesight all day. I can I when I was when it was discovered that I was blind for the first several years, I did have some light perception. I never as such, really even could see shadows, but I had some light perception. But if I were to be asked, How would you describe what it's like to see light? I'm not sure how I would do that. It's like asking you tell me what it's like to see put it into words so that it makes me feel what you feel when you see. And it's not the excitement of seeing, but it's the sensation. How do you describe that sensation? Or how do you describe the sensation of hearing their their senses? But I've yet to really encounter someone who can put those into words that will draw you in. And I say that from the standpoint of having done literally hundreds or 1000s of speeches telling my story about being in the World Trade Center, and what I tell people today is we have a whole generation of people who have never experienced or had no memory of the World Trade Center, and we have another generation that saw it mainly from TV and pictures. So they their, their view of it was extremely small. And my job, when I speak is to literally bring them in the building and describe what is occurring to me in such a way that they're with me as we're going down the stairs. And I've learned how to do that, but describing to someone what it's like to see or to hear, I haven't found words that can truly do that yet. Oh,   Jeffrey Madoff ** 37:15 fascinating. Thank you.   Michael Hingson ** 37:20 Well, tell me about creativity. I mean, you do a lot of of things, obviously, with with creativity. So what is creativity?   Jeffrey Madoff ** 37:29 I think that creativity is the compelling need to express, and that can manifest in many, many, many different ways. You have that, you know, just it was fascinating here you talk about you, describing what happened in Twin Towers, you know. And so, I think, you know, you had a compelling need to process what was a historic and extraordinary event through that unique perception that you have, and taking the person, as you said, along with you on that journey, you know, down the stairs and out of the Building. I think it was what 78 stories or something, right? And so I think that creativity, in terms of a trait, is that it's a personality trait that has a compelling need to express in some way. And I think that there is no such thing as the lightning bolt that hits and all of a sudden you come up with the idea for the great novel, The great painting, the great dance, the great piece of music. We are taking in influences all the time and percolating those influences, and they may come out, in my case, hopefully they've come out in the play that I wrote, personality and because if it doesn't relate to anybody else, and you're only talking to yourself, that's you know, not, not. The goal, right? The play is to have an audience. The goal of your book is to have readers. And by the way, did your book come out in Braille?   Michael Hingson ** 39:31 Um, yeah, it, it is available in Braille. It's a bit. Actually, all three of my books are available in with their on demand. They can be produced in braille, and they're also available in audio formats as well. Great.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 39:43 That's great. So, yeah, I think that person, I think that creativity is it is a fascinating topic, because I think that when you're a kid, oftentimes you're told more often not. To do certain things than to do certain things. And I think that you know, when you're creative and you put your ideas out there at a very young age, you can learn shame. You know, people don't like what you do, or make fun of what you do, or they may like it, and it may be great, but if there's, you know, you're opened up to that risk of other people's judgment. And I think that people start retreating from that at a very young age. Could because of parents, could because of teachers, could because of their peer group, but they learn maybe in terms of what they think is emotional survival, although would never be articulated that way, at putting their stuff out there, they can be judged, and they don't like being judged, and that's a very uncomfortable place to be. So I think creativity is both an expression and a process.   Michael Hingson ** 40:59 Well, I'll and I think, I think you're right, and I think that it is, it is unfortunate all too often, as you said, how children are told don't do this or just do that, but don't do this, and no, very few people take the next logical step, which is to really help the child understand why they said that it isn't just don't. It should be. Why not? One of my favorite stories is about a student in school once and was taking a philosophy class. You'll probably have heard this, but he and his classmates went in for the final exam, and the instructor wrote one word on the board, which was why? And then everybody started to write. And they were writing furiously this. This student sat there for a couple of minutes, wrote something on a paper, took it up, handed it in, and left. And when the grades came out, he was the only one who got an A. And the reason is, is because what he put on his paper was, why not, you know, and, and that's very, very valid question to ask. But the reality is, if we really would do more to help people understand, we would be so much better off. But rather than just telling somebody what to do, it's important to understand why?   Jeffrey Madoff ** 42:22 Yeah, I remember when I was in I used to draw all the time, and my parents would bring home craft paper from the store that was used to wrap packets. And so they would bring me home big sheets I could do whatever I wanted on it, you know, and I would draw. And in school I would draw. And when art period happened once or twice a week, and the teacher would come in with her cart and I was drawing, that was when this was in, like, the middle 50s, and Davy Crockett was really a big deal, and I was drawing quite an intricate picture of the battle at the Alamo. And the teacher came over to me and said she wanted us to do crayon resist, which is, you know, they the watercolors won't go over the the crayon part because of the wax and the crayon. And so you would get a different thing that never looked good, no matter who did it, right? And so the teacher said to me, what are you doing? And I said, Well, I'm drawing. It's and she said, Why are you drawing? I said, Well, it's art class, isn't it? She said, No, I told you what to do. And I said, Yeah, but I wanted to do this. And she said, Well, you do what I tell you, where you sit there with your hands folded, and I sat there with my hands folded. You know I wasn't going to be cowed by her. And I've thought back on that story so often, because so often you get shut down. And when you get shut down in a strong way, and you're a kid, you don't want to tread on that land again. Yeah, you're afraid,   Michael Hingson ** 44:20 yeah. Yeah. And maybe there was a good reason that she wanted you to do what she wanted, but she should have taken the time to explain that right, right now, of course, my question is, since you did that drawing with the Alamo and so on, I'm presuming that Davy Crockett looked like Fess Parker, right? Just checking,   Jeffrey Madoff ** 44:42 yeah, yep, yeah. And my parents even got me a coon   Michael Hingson ** 44:47 skin hat. There you go, Daniel Boone and David Crockett and   Jeffrey Madoff ** 44:51 Davy Crockett and so there were two out there. Mine was actually a full coon skin cap with the tail. And other kids had it where the top of it was vinyl, and it had the Disney logo and a picture of Fess Parker. And I said, Now I don't want something, you know, and you are correct, you are correct. It was based on fess Barker. I think   Michael Hingson ** 45:17 I have, I had a coons kid cap, and I think I still do somewhere. I'm not quite sure where it is, but it was a real coonskin cap with a cake with a tail.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 45:26 And does your tail snap off? Um, no, yeah, mine. Mine did the worst thing about the coonskin cap, which I thought was pretty cool initially, when it rained, it was, you know, like you had some wet animal on your Well, yes, yeah, as you did, she did, yeah, animal on your head, right? Wasn't the most aromatic of the hub. No,   Michael Hingson ** 45:54 no, it's but Huh, you got to live with it. That's right. So what is the key to having great creative collaborations? I love collaborating when I wrote my original book, Thunder dog, and then running with Roselle, and then finally, live like a guide dog. I love the idea of collaborating, and I think it made all three of the books better than if it had just been me, or if I had just let someone else do it, because we're bringing two personalities into it and making the process meld our ideas together to create a stronger process.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 46:34 I completely agree with you, and collaboration, for instance, in my play personality, the director Sheldon apps is a fantastic collaborator, and as a result, has helped me to be a better writer, because he would issue other challenges, like, you know, what if we looked at it this way instead of that way? What if you gave that power, that that character, the power in that scene, rather than the Lloyd character? And I loved those kinds of challenges. And the key to a good collaboration is pretty simple, but it doesn't happen often enough. Number one is listening. You aren't going to have a good collaboration if you don't listen. If you just want to interrupt and shut the other person down and get your opinion out there and not listen, that's not going to be good. That's not going to bode well. And it's being open. So people need to know that they're heard. You can do that a number of ways. You can sort of repeat part of what they said, just so I want to understand. So you were saying that the Alamo situation, did you have Davy Crockett up there swinging the rifle, you know? So the collaboration, listening, respect for opinions that aren't yours. And you know, don't try to just defeat everything out of hand, because it's not your idea. And trust developing a trust with your collaborators, so that you have a clearly defined mission from the get go, to make whatever it is better, not just the expression of one person's will over another. And I think if you share that mission, share that goal, that the other person has earned your trust and vice versa, that you listen and acknowledge, then I think you can have great collaboration. And I've had a number of great collaborators. I think I'm a good collaborator because I sort of instinctively knew those things, and then working with Sheldon over these last few years made it even more so. And so that's what I think makes a really great collaboration.   Michael Hingson ** 49:03 So tell me about the play personality. What's it about? Or what can you tell us about it without giving the whole thing away?   Jeffrey Madoff ** 49:10 So have you ever heard of Lloyd Price?   Michael Hingson ** 49:14 The name is familiar. So that's   Jeffrey Madoff ** 49:16 the answer that I usually get is, I'm not really sure. Yeah, it's kind of familiar. And I said, Well, you don't, probably don't know his name, but I'll bet you know his music. And I then apologize in advance for my singing, you know, cause you've got walk, personality, talk, personality, smile, oh yeah, yeah. I love that song, you know. Yeah. Do you know that song once I did that, yes, yeah. So Lloyd was black. He grew up in Kenner, Louisiana. It was he was in a place where blacks were expected to know their place. And. And if it was raining and a white man passed, you'd have to step into a mud puddle to let them pass, rather than just working by each other. And he was it was a tough situation. This is back in the late 1930s and what Lloyd knew is that he wanted to get out of Kenner, and music could be his ticket. And the first thing that the Lloyd character says in the play is there's a big dance opening number, and first thing that his character says is, my mama wasn't a whore. My dad didn't leave us. I didn't learn how to sing in church, and I never did drugs. I want to get that out of the way up front. And I wanted to just blow up all the tropes, because that's who Lloyd was, yeah, and he didn't drink, he didn't learn how to sing in church. And, you know, there's sort of this baked in narrative, you know, then then drug abuse, and you then have redeemed yourself. Well, he wasn't like that. He was entrepreneurial. He was the first. He was the it was really interesting at the time of his first record, 1952 when he recorded Lottie, Miss Claudia, which has been covered by Elvis and the Beatles and Bruce Springsteen and on and on. There's like 370 covers of it. If you wanted to buy a record by a black artist, you had to go to a black owned record store. His records couldn't get on a jukebox if it was owned by a white person. But what happened was that was the first song by a teenager that sold over a million copies. And nobody was prejudiced against green, which is money. And so Lloyd's career took off, and it The story tells about the the trajectory of his career, the obstacles he had to overcome, the triumphs that he experienced, and he was an amazing guy. I had been hired to direct, produce and direct a short documentary about Lloyd, which I did, and part of the research was interviewing him, and we became very good friends. And when I didn't know anything about him, but I knew I liked his music, and when I learned more about him, I said, Lloyd, you've got an amazing story. Your story needs to be told. And I wrote the first few scenes. He loved what I wrote. And he said, Jeff, I want you to do this. And I said, thank you. I want to do it, but there's one other thing you need to know. And he said, What's that? And I said, You're the vessel. You're the messenger, but your story is bigger than you are. And he said, Jeff, I've been waiting for years for somebody to say that to me, rather than just blowing more smoke up my ass. Yeah. And that started our our collaboration together and the story. And it was a great relationship. Lloyd died in May of 21 and we had become very close, and the fact that he trusted me to tell his story is of huge significance to me. And the fact that we have gotten such great response, we've had two commercial runs. We're moving the show to London, is is is really exciting. And the fact that Lloyd, as a result of his talent and creativity, shattered that wall that was called Race music in race records, once everybody understood on the other side that they could profit from it. So there's a lot of story in there that's got a lot of meat, and his great music   Michael Hingson ** 54:04 that's so cool and and so is it? Is it performing now anywhere, or is it? No, we're   Jeffrey Madoff ** 54:12 in between. We're looking actually, I have a meeting this this week. Today is February 11. I have a meeting on I think it's Friday 14th, with my management in London, because we're trying to get a theater there. We did there in October, and got great response, and now we're looking to find a theater there.   Michael Hingson ** 54:37 So what are the chance we're going to see it on Broadway?   Jeffrey Madoff ** 54:41 I hope a very good chance Broadway is a very at this point in Broadway's history. It's it's almost prohibitively expensive to produce on Broadway, the West End has the same cache and. Yeah, because, you know, you think of there's that obscure British writer who wrote plays called William Shakespeare. You may have heard of   Michael Hingson ** 55:07 him, yeah, heard of the guy somewhere, like, like, I've heard of Lloyd Price, yeah, that's   Jeffrey Madoff ** 55:15 it. And so I think that Broadway is certainly on the radar. The first step for us, the first the big step before Broadway is the West End in London. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 55:30 that's a great place to go. It is.   Jeffrey Madoff ** 55:32 I love it, and I speak the language, so it's good. Well, there you   Michael Hingson ** 55:35 are. That helps. Yes, well, you're a very creative kind of individual by any standard. Do you ever get involved with or have you ever faced the whole concept of imposter syndrome?   Jeffrey Madoff ** 55:48 Interesting, you mentioned that the answer is no, and I'll tell you why it's no. And you know, I do a fair amount of speaking engagements and that sort of thing, and that comes up particularly with women, by the way, imposter syndrome, and my point of view on it is, you know, we're not imposters. If you're not trying to con somebody and lying about what you do, you're a work in progress, and you're moving towards whatever it is that your goals are. So when my play became a produced commercial piece of theater and I was notarized as a playwright, why was that same person the day before that performance happened? And so I think that rather than looking at it as imposter, I look at it as a part of the process, and a part of the process is gaining that credibility, and you have to give yourself permission to keep moving forward. And I think it's very powerful that if you declare yourself and define yourself rather than letting people define you. So I think that that imposter syndrome comes from that fear, and to me, instead of fear, just realize you're involved in the process and so you are, whatever that process is. And again, it's different if somebody's trying to con you and lie to you, but in terms of the creativity, and whether you call yourself a painter or a musician or a playwright or whatever, if you're working towards doing that, that's what you do. And nobody starts off full blown as a hit, so to speak. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 57:44 well, I think you're absolutely right, and I think that it's all about not trying to con someone. And when you are doing what you do, and other people are involved, they also deserve credit, and people like you probably have no problem with making sure that others who deserve credit get the credit. Oh, absolutely, yeah, I'm the same way. I am absolutely of the opinion that it goes back to collaboration. When we're collaborating, I'm I'm very happy to talk about the fact that although I started the whole concept of live like a guide dog, carry Wyatt Kent and I worked on it together, and the two of us work on it together. It's both our books. So each of us can call it our book, but it is a collaborative effort, and I think that's so important to be able to do,   Jeffrey Madoff ** 58:30 oh, absolutely, absolutely, you know, the stuff that I was telling you about Sheldon, the director, you know, and that he has helped me to become a better writer, you know, and and when, as as obviously, you have experienced too, when you have a fruitful collaboration, it's fabulous, because you're both working together to create the best possible result, as opposed to self aggrandizement, right?   Michael Hingson ** 59:03 Yeah, it is. It is for the things that I do. It's not about me and I and I say it all the time when I'm talking to people who I'd like to have hire me to be a speaker. It's not about me, it's about their event. And I believe I can add value, and here's why I think I can add value, but it's not about me, it's about you and your event, right? And it's so important if, if you were to give some advice to somebody starting out, or who wants to be creative, or more creative and so on, what kind of advice would you give them?   Jeffrey Madoff ** 59:38 I would say it's more life advice, which is, don't be afraid of creative risk, because the only thing that you have that nobody else has is who you are. So how you express who you are in the most unique way of who you are? So that is going to be what defines your work. And so I think that it's really important to also realize that things are hard and always take more time than you think they should, and that's just part of the process. So it's not easy. There's all these things out there in social media now that are bull that how people talk about the growth of their business and all of this stuff, there's no recipe for success. There are best practices, but there's no recipes for it. So however you achieve that, and however you achieve making your work better and gaining the attention of others, just understand it's a lot of hard work. It's going to take longer than you thought, and it's can be incredibly satisfying when you hit certain milestones, and don't forget to celebrate those milestones, because that's what's going to give you the strength to keep going forward.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:07 Absolutely, it is really about celebrating the milestones and celebrating every success you have along the way, because the successes will build to a bigger success. That's right, which is so cool. Well, this has been a lot of fun. We've been doing this for an hour. Can you believe it? That's been great. It has been and I really appreciate you being here, and I I want to thank all of you who are listening, but please tell your friends to get into this episode as well. And we really value your comments, so please feel free to write me. I would love to know what you thought about today. I'm easy to reach. It's Michael M, I C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S i b, e.com, or you can always go to our podcast page, which is Michael hingson, M, I C H, A, E, L, H i N, G, s o n.com/podcast, where you can listen to or access all the of our podcasts, but they're also available, as most likely you've discovered, wherever you can find podcasts, so you can get them on Apple and all those places and wherever you're listening. We do hope you'll give us a five star review. We really value your reviews, and Jeff has really given us a lot of great insights today, and I hope that you all value that as well. So we really would appreciate a five star rating wherever you're listening to us, and that you'll come back and hear some more episodes with us. If you know of anyone who ought to be a guest, Jeff, you as well. Love You to refer people to me. I'm always looking for more people to have on because I do believe that everyone in the world is unstoppable if you learn how to accept that and move forward. And that gets back to our whole discussion earlier about failure or whatever, you can be unstoppable. That doesn't mean you're not going to have challenges along the way, but that's okay. So we hope that if you do know people who ought to be on the podcast, or if you want to be on the podcast and you've been listening, step up won't hurt you. But again, Jeff, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and we really appreciate your time. Thank   Jeffrey Madoff ** 1:03:16 you, Michael, for having you on. It was fun. You   **Michael Hingson ** 1:03:23 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

I have been anticipating having the opportunity to speak with Carl Amari on an episode of Unstoppable Mindset for several months. Carl and I share a passion for vintage radio programs sometimes called “old time radio shows”. Carl heard his first broadcast in 1975 when he heard Cary Grant staring in a program from the 20-year long series entitled “Suspense”. That program left the air in 1962, but like other shows, some radio stations kept it alive later.   Carl's interest in vintage programs goes far beyond the over 100,000 transcription master's he has amassed. He has also created some programs of his own. For example, in 2002 Carl asked for and received the rights to recreate the television show, “The Twilight Zone” for a radio audience. He used many famous actors while recreating the series. He talks about what he did and how he brought “The Twilight Zone” to life on the radio.   He also has dramatized five versions of the bible. His most well-known work is “The Word Of Promise Bible”. When I first purchased that bible from Audible, I had no idea that Carl was its creator.   Carl Amari is quite a creative guy making movies, collecting and producing radio programs and he even hosts podcasts.   I hope you have as much fun listening to this episode as I did in creating it with Carl. We definitely will have him back as he has many more stories to tell.       About the Guest:   Carl Amari has been licensing classic radio shows from the owners and estates since 1990.  He has amassed a library of 100,000+ master recordings.  Amari broadcasts these golden-age of radio shows on his 5-hour radio series, Hollywood 360, heard on 100+ radio stations coast-to-coast each week.  Amari is also the Host/Producer of The WGN Radio Theatre heard each weekend on legendary Chicago radio station, WGN AM 720. Amari is the founder and curator of The Classic Radio Club.  Each month Amari selects the best-of-the-best from his classic radio library to send to members.   Amari is also a published author.  In 1996, he began writing a series of books about classic radio for The Smithsonian Institute.  More recently, he teamed with fellow classic radio expert, Martin Grams, to co-write the best-selling coffee-table cook “The Top 100 Classic Radio Shows” (available at Amazon).  Each bi-monthly, Amari writes a classic radio-themed column titled “Good Old Days on the Radio” for the nostalgia publication Good Old Days Magazine.   In 2002, Amari licensed the intellectual property, The Twilight Zone, from CBS and The Rod Serling estate to create and produce The Twilight Zone Radio Dramas, which are fully dramatized audio adaptations based on Rod Serling's Emmy-Award winning TV series.  Hosted by prolific actor Stacy Keach, each hour-long radio drama features a Hollywood celebrity in the title role.  The Twilight Zone Radio Dramas has won numerous awards of excellence including The Audie Award, AFTRA's American Scene Award and the XM Nation Award for Best Radio Drama on XM.  The Twilight Zone Radio Dramas are broadcast coast-to-coast each week on nearly 100 radio stations.    In 2007, Amari parlayed his experience and passion for radio theatre and love for the Bible into the creation of the award-winning Word of Promise celebrity-voiced, dramatized audio Bible published by Christian giant Thomas Nelson, Inc.  The New Testament won 2008's highest Evangelical award, The Christian Book of the Year.  The Word of Promise stars Jim Caviezel (“The Passion of the Christ”) reprising his film role as Jesus, with Michael York, Terence Stamp, Lou Gossett, Jr., Marisa Tomei, Lou Diamond Phillips, Ernie Hudson, Kimberly-Williams Paisley and many other celebrities voicing roles of the New Testament.  In 2008, Amari produced The Word of Promise Old Testament featuring more than 400 actors including: Jon Voight, Gary Sinise, Richard Dreyfuss, Max von Sydow, Malcolm McDowell, Joan Allen, John Rhys-Davies, Sean Astin, Marcia Gay Harden and Jesse McCartney. The Old Testament was combined with the New Testament and released as The Word of Promise Complete audio Bible in 2009 and has won numerous awards, including three Audie awards.  The Word of Promise has become the #1 selling audio Bible of all time.  In 2009, Amari produced The Truth & Life Dramatized Audio Bible: New Testament, a Catholic Bible featuring Neal McDonough, John Rhys-Davies, Malcolm McDowell, Kristen Bell, Blair Underwood, Julia Ormond, Brian Cox, Sean Astin and other celebrities.  It was released by Zondervan Corporation, the largest religious publisher in the world.  Amari secured an Imprimatur from The Vatican and a foreword by Pope Benedict XVI for The Truth & Life Dramatized Audio Bible: New Testament, which has become the #1 selling Catholic audio Bible in the world.  In 2016, Amari produced The Breathe Audio Bible for Christian Publisher Tyndale House.  Celebrities voicing roles include Ashley Judd, Josh Lucas, Kevin Sorbo, Hill Harper, John Rhys-Davies and Corbin Bleu.  Amari currently produces a weekly radio series based on this audio Bible called The Breathe Radio Theatre hosted by Kevin Sorbo, heard on Christian radio stations coast-to-coast.    In 2000, Amari produced the feature film Madison starring Jim Caviezel, Bruce Dern, Jake Lloyd, Mary McCormack and John Mellencamp.  In 2001, Madison was invited by Robert Redford to be the opening film at Redford's prestigious Sundance Film Festival.  Madison was later released worldwide by MGM.  Amari also spends his time creating television series for Warner Brothers and Gulfstream Pictures.  Amari's latest film projects include producing, Wireman, starring Scott Eastwood and Andy Garcia, a true-story set in 1978 Chicago and Crossed, a Zombie Post-Apocalyptic story by The Boys creator Garth Ennis.  Both films will be released in 2025.   Amari's company was twice named to the INC. 500 list of fastest growing privately-held companies.  He was selected as one of Chicago's Very Own by Tribune Broadcasting and his business accomplishments have been highlighted in The Wall Street Journal, The Chicago Sun-Times, The Chicago Tribune, Variety, INC. 500, The Associated Press, Entertainment Weekly, The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times and The New York Post. Ways to connect Carl:   https://www.hollywood360radio.com/   https://classicradioclub.com/   https://ultimateclassicradio.com/   You can also provide my email address: Carl@ClassicRadioClub.com   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello to you all, wherever you may be, welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Oh, it's always good to have an unstoppable mindset. I am really very joy today. I'm really happy because I get to have an hour to chat with someone who I've admired for a while, although I haven't told him that but he, I first heard him on a show. Well, he did a show called Yeah, on a program called yesterday USA, which is a program that plays old radio shows on now two different networks. They have a red network and a blue network, so they have emulated NBC, and they're on 24 hours a day, doing a lot of old radio stuff. And I've been collecting radio shows for a long time, although our guest, Carl has has done, in a broad sense, a lot more than I have. But anyway, he collects shows. He does a lot with master copies of radio shows, and I don't, don't have that many masters, but he's also done some other things. For example, in 2002 he acquired the rights from CBS and the Rod Serling estate to create Twilight Zone radio, and he is created versions for radio of all of the Twilight Zone broadcasts. The other thing that he did that I didn't realize until I got his bio, is that he created something else that I purchased from Audible, probably in 2008 or 2009 the Word of Promise Bible, where he got a number of entertainers and and special people and Celebrities like Michael York and others to create the Bible, and it's only 98 hours long. So you know, it takes a little while to read, but still, it's worth doing. So I would like to introduce you all to Carl Amari and Carl, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Michael,   Carl Amari ** 03:14 thank you so much for having me. It's a real honor. Thanks so much.   Michael Hingson ** 03:19 Well, the honor is, is mine as well. I really am glad that that you're here and we do get to talk about radio and all sorts of whatever comes along. Well, I want to start this way. Tell me about kind of the early Carl, growing up and all that well for an opening, yeah. Gosh,   Carl Amari ** 03:35 that was a long time ago, but when I was 12 years old in 1975 I heard my first classic radio show. It was an episode of suspense, and it starred Cary Grant in a show called on a country road. Yeah, and I was at a sleepover at my friend's house, and we were kind of rowdy, as as 12 year olds will be. And his father had this show, I think it was on an eight track tape or a cassette tape, and he played it, and it was the first time I ever experienced theater of the mind. And I, you know, grew up watching Batman and the Twilight Zone and Wild Wild West, and I had never had anything, you know, that that really, really just blew me away, like hearing a radio drama where you hear the the actors performing, and you see the, you know, they have the sound effects and the music, and it creates this movie in your mind. And I was at a 12 as 12 years old. I was just completely just, you know, flabbergasted, and I wanted to learn all I could about classic radio and and so I spent, really my entire career, the last 40 plus years, licensing and putting out these radio shows, licensing from. The estates and putting them out on radio and on CD and digital download and so forth.   Michael Hingson ** 05:06 Cool. Yeah, I remember on a country road the first show. Well, I remember a few times my parents were listening to radio in the early 50s, and I think one of the first ones I heard was Dick Tracy, but I don't even remember that, but I think it was 1957 in October or so. I was listening to the radio, and all of a sudden I heard, and one of my maybe it was 58 but anyway, one of my favorite songs at the time was Tom Dooley by the Kingston Trio, and this announcement came up that on suspense this Sunday would be the story of Tom Dooley. And I went, Oh, that's Oh, right, right. Listen to that. And I did, and I was hooked for the very same reasons that you were radio really presents you the opportunity to picture things in in your own mind, in a sense, the way you want. And what they do in the radio production is get actors who can draw you in, but the whole idea is for you to picture it in your own mind. So I did it with Tom Dooley, and I got hooked. And I was listening to suspense and yours truly Johnny dollar ever since that day. And then also Gun Smoke and Have Gun Will Travel came along, and then that was fun.   Carl Amari ** 06:23 Yeah, those were those shows that you just mentioned. They were on still in the 50s. Because when you think of the golden age of radio, it was really the 30, late 30s all the way to the very early 50s, golden age of radio. But there were hangers on. There was Johnny dollar, and, like you said, suspense. And you know, some of these programs that were still on fiber, McGee and Molly, even, you know, Jack Benny, were still on during the 50s. And then, of course, most of the shows made the transition to the visual medium of television. But the eyes, I still say, you know, today, listening to these radio shows is more fun, and I think they're more impactful than the television versions. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 07:07 I think so by any standard. I think that's true. And gun Well, let's see. Suspense went into, I think 1962 Johnny dollar did, and suspense and Gunsmoke and Have Gun Will Travel. Started on television, actually, but then transitioned to radio. There were a few shows, a few of the plots that actually were on both, yes, but John Danner played Paladin on the radio, and that was fun. And then, of course, Gunsmoke as well. So they, they, they all went into the 60s, which was kind of kind of cool, yeah.   Carl Amari ** 07:43 And usually they had, you know, sometimes they had the same cast, and other times a completely different cast, like with Gunsmoke, you know, William Conrad was Marshall Matt Dillon on on radio. And, of course, people remember him as canon on television, also Nero Wolf on television. But William Conrad, who was probably in more radio shows than anyone I can think of. Yeah, was, was Marshall, Matt Dillon, and then on on television, of course, James Arness, so yeah, and but then, you know, the Jack Benny Program, there was the same cast, you know, the very same people that were on radio, moved to television, same with Red Skelton and many of the shows, but other times, completely different cast.   Michael Hingson ** 08:22 I was watching this morning when I woke up, me too. Let's see, was it me too? Yeah, was me TV? They're great and and they had Jack Benny on at 430 in the morning. I just happened to wake up and I turned it on. There's Benny season five, where he took the beavers to county fair. Of course, the Beavers are fun. And I've actually, I've actually had the opportunity to meet Beverly Washburn, which was, oh, sure,   Carl Amari ** 08:52 sure. Oh man, Jack Benny, probably the high water mark of comedy. You know, when you talk about, you know, a guy that was on, he started in vaudeville, you know, and then he had his own radio show, his own TV show was in movies, and probably the most successful. And when you think about Seinfeld, right, when you think about the series, the television series Seinfeld, there's so many correlations between Seinfeld and the Jack Benny Program, you know Seinfeld. It was, was a comedian, you know Jerry Seinfeld, playing himself. He had this cast of Looney characters all around him. Same thing with the Jack Benny show. It was Jack Benny with a cast of Looney characters. And so it's probably was an homage, you know, to to Jack Benny. And   Michael Hingson ** 09:39 I, I'm, think you're right. I think in a lot of ways, that probably absolutely was the case. And you know, there are so many radio shows that that, in one way or another, have have influenced TV. And I think people don't necessarily recognize that, but it's true, how much, yeah, radio really set the stage for so many things. Yeah, I think the later suspenses, in a sense, were a lot better than some of the earlier ones, because they really were more poignant. Some were more science fiction, but they really were more suspenseful than than some of the early ones, but they were all fun.   Carl Amari ** 10:13 Oh gosh, suspense that's now you're talking about, I think the best series of all time, you know, because it was about almost 1000 episodes. It lasted from 42 to, I believe, 62 or 63 and and it had, for a time, there was a lot of true stories on suspense when Elliot Lewis took over. But yeah, you're right. It had the best actors, the best writers, the best production values. So suspense to this day. You know, I think is, of all the shows was, was one of the best, if not the best.   Michael Hingson ** 10:45 Oh, I agree. I can't argue with that at all. And did so many things. And then for at least a summer, they had hour long suspenses, but mostly it was a half hour or Yes, later was 25 minutes plus a newscast, right,   Carl Amari ** 10:59 right, right? It didn't seem to work in the hour long format. They only did a handful of those, and they went back right back to the half hour once a week, you know. But, yeah, no suspense, one of my favorites for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 11:13 Oh, yeah. Well, and it's hard to argue with that. It's so much fun to do all of these. And you know, on other shows in radio, in a sense, tried to emulate it. I mean, escape did it for seven years, but it still wasn't suspense, right,   Carl Amari ** 11:27 right. Closest thing to suspense was escape, but it was never and I think because you know, as as you know Michael, but maybe some of your listeners don't realize this, these actors, these big actors, Humphrey Bogard and chair, you know, James Stewart and Cary Grant, they were, they were studio, they were under a studio contract. So they weren't like today, where they were freelance. So when, like, let's say, Jimmy Stewart was being paid, I'll just make up a number $5,000 a week to be under contract to make movies when he wasn't making a movie, they wanted to make money on this actor, so they would loan him out to radio. And these actors were on suspense, like on a routine basis, you had movie stars every week appearing on suspense, the biggest movie stars on the planet. So and you would think, well, how could they afford these movie stars? Well, because the studios wanted to make money when their actors weren't working, right?   Michael Hingson ** 12:23 And and did, and people really appreciate it. I mean, Jess Stewart, yeah, even some of the actors from radio, like fiber began, Molly, yeah, on a suspense. And they were, that was a great that was a great show. But, oh yeah,   Carl Amari ** 12:38 back, I think it was back, right? Yeah, yeah, which   Michael Hingson ** 12:41 was really cool. Well, you license a lot of shows from, from people tell me more about that. That must be interesting and fascinating to try to negotiate and actually work out. Well,   Carl Amari ** 12:52 early on, when I was in college, you know, as a communications major, and I learned very early on that these show, a lot of these shows are, copyrighted so and because I was actually sent a cease and desist letter on a college station just playing a show. And so that was, and it was from Mel blanks company, man of 1000 voices. And he his son, Noel, helped me learn, you know, taught me that, hey, you know, these shows are were created by, you know, the the estates, you know, the that were still around Jack Benny and, you know, CBS owns a ton of stuff and different, you know, entities that own these shows and and he helped, and he introduced me to a lot of people, including Jerry Lewis and Milton Burrell and and so I spent My early career in my 20s, flying back and forth to LA and New York and licensing these shows from like Irving Brecher, who created the life of Riley and the Jack Benny estate. And, you know, golden books at the time, owned the Lone Ranger and so licensing that and Warner Brothers, you know, DC for Batman and so, and Superman, I mean, which had Batman on it, but Superman, I licensed those. And, you know, MCA universal for dragnet and the six shooter and so on and on and on and and I spent, as I say, my early career licensing. I now have over 100,000 shows under license, and mostly from Master transcriptions, because I only like to collect from the master source, because we put them out through a club, the classic Radio Club, and I air them on my I have a national radio show called Hollywood 360 we air them every week, five shows every week on the network. There's over 100 stations, including Armed Forces Radio and and so I want the quality to be impeccable. I don't want dubs of dubs or, you know, cracks and pops. And I really want to give people what it sounded like back then when they aired   Michael Hingson ** 14:54 and well. And you you can sort of do that, but the sound is probably even better today. With the audio equipment that people have access to, yeah, the sound is even better than it was. But I hear what you're saying, and it's cool to listen to those, and they're not stereo. Oh, that would be interesting to to try to reprocess and make that happen, but the audio is incredible. Yeah,   Carl Amari ** 15:16 yeah, that's kind of what our, you know, our trademark is, Michael is, you know, if you're listening to Hollywood 360 which, as I say, is on a lot of stations across the country, when you listen to that show, and in every hour, we play a we play a show, you know you're going to get something that sounds just, is like we're talking right now. You know that's that's important to me. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 15:37 well, and I can appreciate that, and it makes perfect sense that it is because we should really preserve the the programs, and we should do what we can to make them sound as good as we can, and we should really get that high quality. And the high quality is there, yes, just not always what people find, and people are willing to, well, accept less than what they should, yeah,   Carl Amari ** 16:01 well, I, you know, I grew up collecting from where I wherever I could. But then, when I started licensing them, I would get the masters from the, you know, whoever owned them. And then I also have about a half a dozen collectors that only collect on 16 inch disc, which is kind of great. And so if I have, let's say, you know, suspense and and I'll, you know, let's say, you know, because we license that from CBS. But if CBS doesn't have a certain show, but a collector on disc has it, I'll get that from the collector and still pay the royalty the CBS because they own it. But I'll get that, that disc from a collector. And, you know, we, and it's a cost of doing business, but we'll get it transferred and and put it out to the public that way.   Michael Hingson ** 16:46 Typically, what are the discs made of? So   Carl Amari ** 16:49 they're, they're like, uh, they're like a shellac. I mean, they're, they're like, a glass. Some of them are actually glass,   Michael Hingson ** 16:55 yeah, you know, some of the Jack Benny shows were glass, yeah,   Carl Amari ** 16:59 and acetate and things like that. And so I there's one gentleman that's in in Redding, California, Doug Hopkinson, who is just an expert on this, and he does most of the transfers. We recently licensed 41 different series from Frederick zivs estate. And you know, we're talking the entire collection of Boston Blackie bold venture with Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall, Philo Vance, with Jackson Beck, Mr. District Attorney, and I was a communist for the FBI. And Doug is actually doing they're all on they're all zivs Personal discs. Frederick Ziv, he had them. There's 10,000 more than 10,000 discs in a controlled warehouse in Cincinnati, and we are slowly but surely working our way through 10,000 shows. And Doug is doing all those transfers. So he's a busy guy. Does he go there to do it? No, we have him sent. So you do cardboard boxes. Yeah, yeah. To California. And then Doug has two, you know, it's special equipment that you have to use. I mean, it's very, very it's not just a turntable, and it's a special equipment. And then, you know, we get the raw file, you know, we get the, he uses the special needles based on that album, you know, or that disc he has, you know, a whole plethora of needles, and then he tests it, whichever gets the best sound out of there. So, yeah, he's really, he's tops at this. And so we're doing those Troy, we just transferred all the, I was a communist for the FBI with Dana Andrews, yeah, and all the Boston blackies, which is one of my favorites   Michael Hingson ** 18:40 and bold venture. And, yeah, I have those, good man, so I know that it's interesting. You mentioned the needles. So for people who don't know, in order to get a program on one disc, the transcriptions were literally 16 inches. I mean, we're all used to LPS or 12 inch disc, but the radio transcriptions were 16 inch discs, right?   Carl Amari ** 19:05 And that held 15 minutes. And now you needed two discs, yeah? So generally, you needed two discs to give you one show, unless it was one on one side and one on the other side. But a lot of times it was, it was, it was two discs for one show, yeah, and then, and then, on the opposite side, you'd have another show. One   Michael Hingson ** 19:24 of the things that I got the opportunity to do was to collect my dad knew somebody when he worked at Edwards Air Force Base that had a number of 16 inch transcriptions, and I had a turntable. Wasn't great, but it served the purpose for a college kid. And one of the things I discovered was that there were a few recordings that, rather than putting the needle on the outside and the record spins and plays in, you actually start from the inside and go out.   Carl Amari ** 19:56 Yes, I've seen that, yeah, and I'm told we're that way. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 20:00 I'm told that they did that because the the audio quality was actually better. Doing it that way, really? Yeah, I didn't know that. I didn't know, but that's what I was told, was that the audio quality was even better. Wow,   Carl Amari ** 20:11 yeah. I mean, it's a skill, you know, because with we really have one shot to get these 10, you know, these, these discs and and and we were getting them from, from literally, Frederick zivs Personal. They were, I told, like the first one off the duplication line. When he would, he would bicycle the discs all around the country. We're not using discs that were ever touched by radio stations. In fact, a lot of them, we have to drill out the holes in the middle because they've closed up a little bit. So these have never been played. They're unplayed. His master discs that are unplayed and and if you have the bold venture, you know what we were able to pull off those masters, it's like high fidelity. Mon Oro,   Michael Hingson ** 20:56 yeah. They're as good as it can get. And they do, they sound really great. Well, even the Boston blackies are good. Yeah,   Carl Amari ** 21:02 oh yeah, yeah. I'm excited about that, because that, that's one of my favorite shows Boston.   Michael Hingson ** 21:07 I like Boston Blackie and yeah, and I like, I was a communist for the FBI, and I haven't gotten those yet, but I'm waiting to get Dana Andrews that whole   Carl Amari ** 21:15 they just shipped. So there you should be getting them, Michael. So thank you for that. They'll   Michael Hingson ** 21:20 be they'll be coming, yes, which is pretty cool, but it is so fun to have the opportunity to listen to all these and I really urge people, the easy way is you can go to places like yesterday usa.net, online and listen to a lot of radio programs, but you can go to Carl's website, or when he can tell us how to do it, and you can actually purchase the opportunity to get copies of some of these shows, and they're absolutely fun and worth doing.   Carl Amari ** 21:54 Yeah, thank you, Michael. We are. We have, you know, our radio show has a website. You can learn about our radio show that's that's easy. It's Hollywood. And then 360 so Hollywood, 360 radio.com, that's like my and you can reach me, but there's ways to contact me through there. And then we, I think I mentioned we offer these through a club, which is pretty cool, because what I do every month is I'll comb the library of we have over 100,000 shows, and I'll take, I'll pick 10 shows every month and put them either on five CDs with a booklet, historical booklet, and it's in a nice case. And you get about every 30 days, CD members get a new 10 C 10 show five CD set in the mail, or you can get those same shows via digital download. So if you don't want the CDs, you just want a link sent to you there, they're done that way too. And that's classic radio club.com and all of the information is there at Classic radio club.com and as I say that that we put out only the best quality there, like, the best quality you could possibly get, which,   Michael Hingson ** 23:04 which is so cool, because I have heard some of those programs as you say that they're dubbed or people, for some reason, have the wrong speed. They're not great quality, right? So frustrating. Yeah, there's no need for any of that. And some people, of course, cut out the commercials, not being visionary enough to understand the value of leaving the commercials in, right? And again, they didn't do a very good job of cutting them out.   Carl Amari ** 23:31 No, we leave everything in. Even, you know, it's so interesting to hear cigarette commercials, or, you know, all you know, vitamin commercials, like, you know, you know, ironized yeast presents, lights out. You know, it's fun. It's fun to hear, you know, these commercials. And sometimes, like on the dragnets, when they're talking about Chesterfield, they're like, oh, doctor recommended, you know, and all this.   Michael Hingson ** 23:55 Well, even better than that, I was just thinking the Fatima cigarettes commercials on dragnet. Yeah, research shows, yeah, I wonder where they got that research,   Carl Amari ** 24:07 yeah. Oh my gosh. They were, they were, it was crazy how they would do that. I mean, they got away with it. They did. They did. They did. And, you know, we, even when we air radio shows, we don't cut the commercials unless it's cigarette commercials, because there's an FCC rule that you can't hear cigarette commercials. But like, you know, when we play Jack Benny and there's and there's, you know, Grape Nuts flakes commercials, we leave it in. We want people to hear the Fun, fun of those commercials and things well,   Michael Hingson ** 24:36 and sometimes, of course, like with great nuts flakes commercials, the commercial is part of the program. Yes, it's integrated. Break away. It's all integrated in which makes it so fun. I didn't know that there was an FCC rule that said you can't air any cigarette commercials even for educational purposes.   Carl Amari ** 24:55 Well, it might be for educational purposes. It may be non commercial, but I know on commercial stage. Stations, I can imagine that. Yeah, yeah. And Hollywood, 360 is commercial, you know, we have sponsors like, you know, we have Prevagen is one of our big sponsors, cats, pride, kitty litter, and, you know, they've been with me forever. And, you know, whatever, the Home Depot, Geico, you know, my pillow, these are some of our sponsors. And, and so we're on commercial stations across the country.   Michael Hingson ** 25:21 Yeah, so it makes sense that that you you do it that way, which, yeah, you know, is understandable. But, boy, some of those commercials are the Chesterfield commercials. Accu Ray on Gunsmoke. Yeah?   Carl Amari ** 25:37 A gimmick to get you to buy their cigarettes.   Michael Hingson ** 25:39 Yeah, I bet there was no accuray machine, but, oh, probably not, probably not. It is so funny. Well, you did the Twilight Zone radio programs. What got you started on doing that?   Carl Amari ** 25:53 Well, you know, growing up, I think I mentioned earlier, it was one of my favorite shows, yeah, always mine too, you know. And just watching that I was so blown away by twilight zone as a kid. So then when I got into the licensing of these classic radio shows, and I I was, I guess I was just always really envious of these producers that got to do these radio shows. And I always thought, man, I was. I was born in the wrong decades. You know, I was, I wish I was around back in the 40s and was able to produce suspense or escape or one of these shows. And I thought the show that would work the best, you know, that was on television, that that would work great in the theater of the mind realm, would be twilight zone, because growing up watching, you know, the makeup wasn't that great and the costumes weren't that great. You could see the zippers on the Martians sometimes. And I thought, you know, the writing was so amazing, right? And the stories were so vivid, and it worked for your theater of the mind that you didn't really need the visual with Twilight Zone, especially if you, you know, you have to write them in a way for radio. There's a special technique for writing for radio, obviously. So I, I reached out to to CBS and the rod Sterling estate, and they thought it was cool. And they said, you know, what do one, we'll let, we'll let, we'll take a listen to one, you know. And they sent me the television script for monsters are due on Maple Street. That was the one they sent me. And at the time, I was trying to get Robert Wagner to be the host. I always liked to take the thief and and, and he thought it was interesting, but he passed on it ultimately. And, and then at the same time, I was working with Stacy Keach, senior, Stacy keach's Dad, who had created Tales from the tales of the Texas range Rangers, right? And, and, and so I was at, actually at Jane Seymour's house, because Jane Seymour was married at that time to Stacy's brother, James Keach, and I got invited to a party there. And I got to meet Stacy Keach and and I heard his voice up close, you know, standing next to him, and I was like, this is the guy I gotta get to be the host. And so I started telling him about what I was doing, and he's like, I'd love to be the host of that. And so that was the beginning of a lifelong friendship with Stacy, and he was just incredible on it. And we did one, we did a pilot, monsters are doing Maple Street. And they loved it. And said, go ahead. And that was it. And it was like, in 2002   Michael Hingson ** 28:29 the first one I heard was, if I remember the title, right, a different kind of stopwatch, okay, the one with Blue Diamond Phillips, Blue Diamond Phillips, that was the first one. I think you. You offered that as a, as a sample. Yeah, yes, when I got that was pretty cool. But you   Carl Amari ** 28:43 wouldn't believe Michael, how many whenever I would reach out to an actor like Jason Alexander, I mean, Jay, I remember Jason, when I reached out to him and I said, Hey, I'd like to you to do these. And he was like, Oh, I'd love it. And then he did it, and then he'd call me and say, You got any more of those? Love doing it, you know, because they never get to do this. They, you know, these actors don't get to do radio. And so people like, you know, Lou Diamond Phillips and Luke Perry God rest his soul, and and Michael York and Malcolm McDowell and, you know, Don Johnson and Lou and Luke Luke Gossett Jr, so many of these people that I reached out to, Jane Seymour, another one, they were just they were they couldn't say yes fast enough. They just loved doing radio drama. It was so easy to book these stars. I've   Michael Hingson ** 29:38 been talking with Walden Hughes, who, you know, is the guy who now runs yesterday USA, we've been talking about and we've been doing recreations of a number of shows. The problem is that the people who are involved, oftentimes have never really gone back and listened to the shows they're recreating and their voice. And what they do are so different than the kinds of things that you actually would hear on the shows, they just don't do it very well. And we've actually thought about the idea of trying to get a grant to try to teach people how to be radio actors and really learn to do the kinds of things that would make the shows a lot more meaningful. We'll see what happens. We're really working on it. We're going to be doing some recreations in Washington for enthusiasm. Puget Sound, yes, and one of my favorite radio shows has always been Richard diamond private detective. I thought such a wise guy, and so I am actually going to be Richard diamond in Nice,   Carl Amari ** 30:46 oh my gosh, yeah, wow. Well, you know, there's a real, there's a real special magic to doing these radio shows, as I know, you know, you understand, you know, there's, there's, and that was that really boils down to having great actors and also great writing like so CBS would send us. He would, they would send me the our the Rod Serling scripts, you know, we really, we'd get them, but they, of course, would not work on radio because it was written for a visual medium. So I had, I had a two time sci fi fantasy winning writer Dennis echeson, who is no longer with us, unfortunately, but he, he, he was an expert on Twilight Zone and also how to write for radio. And it's all about that it's taking that he would take the TV scripts and and redo them so that they would work without the visual, and that you start with that. And then you can, you know, then you can create, when you have a grin, you have a great group of actors. And I hired only the best Chicago supporting cast here, you know, the the Goodman theater and, and, you know actors and, and, you know people like that. And then, of course, the star, we'd fly the star in, yeah, and they, they knock out two shows. I bring in lunch in the middle of the day, we'd knock out two shows. And it was a wonderful experience doing like, I don't know, I think I did, oh gosh, close to 200 episodes.   Michael Hingson ** 32:13 Now, were some of the episodes, shows that never were on the the TV series, or they, yeah, when   Carl Amari ** 32:19 we got through the original 156 shows, because that's how many were in the original Rod Serling run. So we did them all. We actually one of them I never released because I wasn't happy with it. I think it was called come wander with me. So that one I never released, we did it. I wasn't happy with it, because it was a musical one, you know, I think it had Bob Crosby on it, or somebody like that, and on the TV show, and so it was a lot of singing, and I just wasn't happy with it. But after that, there was no no more. I could have gone into the later series, but I just, I said to them, can I hire writers to write new ones, you know? And they said, Sure, but we have to approve it and all that. And so a lot of them got approved, and a lot of them didn't. And then we, we, I think we produced maybe close to 4030, or 40 originals,   Michael Hingson ** 33:13 right? Yeah, did you ever meet Rod Serling? No, never   Carl Amari ** 33:18 did. He was gone before I got into this. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 33:22 he came to UC Irvine to lecture once when I was still on campus. I was actually Program Director of the radio station, and so several of us from kuci got to interview him. And one of our, the people who was involved with that, actually had one of the ape costumes from Planet of the Apes. So he came dressed up as one of the Apes. Was Wow, but great. But the thing about rod Sterling his voice is it's hot. How do I describe this? No matter what his voice sounded like on television, it wasn't nearly as deep as his natural voice, and microphones couldn't get the same level with his real voice, and so we interviewed him. His voice was very deep, and then we did then we went out and listened to the lecture at the gym, and he sounded like Rod Serling, but he didn't sound like Rod Serling when we were talking with him, yeah, and when we could hear him with our ears, when it came out on on the show that we did the interview, it again, sounded like Rod Serling, but just the microphone. Couldn't really get the full breath of his voice, which was sure,   Carl Amari ** 34:35 yeah. I mean, what a talent, right? I mean, and then he had that show, Zero Hour, zero hour, right? Yeah, radio. And that was an interesting series, too. He tried to bring back the and he didn't. It was a, I think it was a fine job. You know, good job. Yeah. There were others, you know, CBS Radio, mystery theater, of course, diamond Brown. And there were some other ones. But I. I'm real proud, really, really proud of The Twilight Zone. I think they're, they're, they're, I mean, they're not nothing is as good as the way they did these the shows in the golden age. I mean, I don't think anyone can get to that point, but they're, I think they're pretty close, and I'm very proud of them.   Michael Hingson ** 35:15 Oh, yeah. And, but it still is with the Twilight Zone. It's really hard to compete with that, my favorite Twilight Zone, and for me, it was tough because I never knew the titles of the shows, because they would show you the title, but I could never, never really hear them. But when I started collecting and got access to, like your your radio Twilight zones and so on. I started to learn titles, and so my favorite has always been valley of the shadow. Oh, great one. Yeah. I just always thought that was the best of the it was an hour long instead of a half hour. But I Yeah, on TV. But I always thought that was just so innovative. I   Carl Amari ** 35:57 think Ernie Hudson did that one for me. I'm trying to think, but yeah, there was, we had, we had so many incredible actors on it. I mean, it was, it was a real fun, you know, four or five years that I was doing those, lot of fun doing them. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 36:12 you had several with Stan Freeberg. And, of course, yes, who don't know Stan Freeberg was definitely very much involved in radio, especially in the 50s, late 40s, with, that's rich, but mostly in the 50s, a satirist and incredible humorist and entertainer. But he did several Twilight zones.   Carl Amari ** 36:31 He did, you know, yeah, I was working with him on, you know, I created the show when radio was, which is still out there today, and and when radio was I ever initially had art Fleming as the host, you know, the original host of original Jeopardy guy, yeah. And then when art passed away, I hired Stan Freeberg, and Stan was the host of that show for many years. And then, then, when I started doing Twilight Zone, I said, Hey, would you like to do some of these? And he's like, Yeah, I'd like to do them all, yeah. Let me have all the scripts. But the one that he did that I think, is just off the charts amazing, is called Four o'clock ever, yeah, one, yeah, yeah. That is just the most interesting show, The Twilight Zone episode that we did where he plays this kind of a loony, a loony guy, who is that? What you describe him as, narking on everybody doesn't like anything, like anybody or anything, no, and it's so and he calls people and harasses them and oh my gosh, and he says, I'm gonna shrink everybody to four inches tall at four o'clock. Four o'clock, right? Yeah, and it's just, oh my gosh, what a what a great episode. It's one of my favorites.   Michael Hingson ** 37:48 And of course, if you think about it, listening people out there who got shrunk at four o'clock,   Carl Amari ** 37:56 well, let's not give it away, but yes, I think you can figure it out.   Michael Hingson ** 37:59 I think it's pretty,   Carl Amari ** 37:59 easy to figure out, but, and I actually played, I actually played a role in that episode. I played the bird. I did all the bird sounds on that episode. And so I feel like I had a co starring role, because, yeah, he had a parrot. You know, that was every time you would say something. And I played that, that part on there. But   Michael Hingson ** 38:22 yeah, all the Twilight zones were, were so clever, yeah, and, and I love listening to them. I I have a an mp three player that I carry on airplanes, and I have audio copies of all the Twilight zones. So every so often as I'm flying somewhere or two on and listen there, Michael,   Carl Amari ** 38:43 I'm so glad to hear that. Oh, man, you make me so happy to hear that. So   Michael Hingson ** 38:47 fun. And you know, another one of my favorites was, will the real Martian please stand up now? Yeah, that was cute, and I won't give it. Oh,   Carl Amari ** 38:57 great. So great. Yeah, I sent trying to think who the actor was in that one, but it's been a while, but that's a great one, yeah. And I remember, you know, watching it on TV and and thinking, Oh, this would work on radio. So great, you know, so love doing them. Yeah, I'd love to do more. I might consider coming back and doing more. I mean, originals, you know, might be a lot of fun to do those again, I was   Michael Hingson ** 39:21 going to ask you if you've got any plans for doing anything future. You know, in the future might be interesting, and there's a lot of leeway, of course, to take it in different directions. Do x minus one, but you don't have to do the same stories, even, although, yeah, a lot of good stories in in the original x minus ones on for those who don't know x minus one is a science fiction series. It was on from what 1955 through 1957 I   Carl Amari ** 39:49 believe, yeah, it was a great series. Sci Fi really lends itself really, very well to radio drama. You know, in theater of the mind, it's great because you can, you can go in. Anywhere you land on any planet. And you know, it's very easy to do on radio, where it's tough to do on TV. You know, you have to spend a lot of money to do that. So, I mean, Stan Freeburg proved that with his with his giant ice cream Sunday.   Michael Hingson ** 40:15 All right, go with the marasino Cherry. For those who don't know, is that he said, we're going to empty Lake Michigan now. We're going to fill it up with whipped cream. We're going to drop a maraschino cherry into it and other things. He said, You can't do that on TV.   Carl Amari ** 40:31 Try doing that on television. Yeah, he was something. He was so much fun to wear. Of all the people that I've met over the years, you know so many of these radio stars, and I've interviewed so many hundreds of them, really, over the years, I'd have to say I have a special place in my heart for Stan the most, because I got to work with him for so many years, and we used to just go to lunch together all the time, and and he had a, he had a, he had a, what was it again? Now? Oh, oh, I'm trying to think of the car that he drove, a jaguar. It was a jaguar, and it was a and we used to drive around in his, his big Jaguar all around LA, and just have so much fun together. And I just loved working with Stan. He was such a great man. I   Michael Hingson ** 41:17 never got to meet what would have loved to Yeah, Jack Benny and Jimmy Durante, oh my gosh, yeah. And, of course, Stan Freeberg, but yeah, you know, I wasn't in that circle, so I didn't write that. But what, what wonderful people they were. And, yeah,   Carl Amari ** 41:32 George Burns, George Burns used to, yeah, George used to take me to the Hillcrest Country Club, and we would just have the best time. He just thought it was the most interesting thing that a young guy in his 20s was so passionate about, you know, those days. And he we would just talk for hours. And I used to go to his office in Hollywood and in his and we would just sit and talk. And I have pictures of of those, those times I have them in my office, you know, he and I together. He was like a mentor to me. He and Stan were both mentors.   Michael Hingson ** 42:05 Did you get recordings of many of those conversations? Yes, I do.   Carl Amari ** 42:08 I do have quite a few with with George and Stan. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:12 it was great, you know, yes, nothing like talking to God, that's   Carl Amari ** 42:16 right. And he had a coffee cup in his office. It's it was a white coffee cup, and it had God on it, and black to drink out of that coffee cup. And he had, I was to say, when I first, my first time, I went to his office in Hollywood, you know, he was a real long office, narrow with is all paneling, and there was all these beautiful pictures, like photos of all the people he and Gracie had worked with. And then there was this beautiful painting of Gracie above him, you know, where he was sitting at his desk. And I remember walking in. I said, Hi, George, because I had talked to him on the phone a lot of times. And he said, Ah, come on in, you know. And I said, Oh, man, George, these photos are amazing on the walls, looking as I was walking towards his desk. And he says, You like those pictures? I said, Yeah. He goes, everyone in those pictures is dead except for me. I knew him the last about four years of his life. From that, from he was 96 to 100 I knew George, and we'd, we'd go   Michael Hingson ** 43:16 to the Hillcrest together. It was fun. Did you meet or get to know Bob Hope, never   Carl Amari ** 43:21 met Bob Hope No, because he lived, what, two, yeah. He lived 100 Yeah. Never met Bob Hope No.   Michael Hingson ** 43:27 And Irving Berlin got to 100 Yeah, yeah. But so   Carl Amari ** 43:30 many, I mean, Jerry Lewis, and so many others that that, I mean, Jerry was so great. I mean, you know, probably one of the most talented people to ever live, you know, and he could even sing, and he could, he could do it all. I mean, he was something. I mean, I was in such awe of that man. And we, he was very kind to me, licensed me to Martin Lewis and all that. So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 43:52 we saw one of my favorite musicals. I originally saw it as a movie out here on K Shea was the million dollar movie. It was Damn Yankees,   Carl Amari ** 44:03 damn Yeah, he was on Broadway. Did that on Broadway, and he did it on Broadway,   Michael Hingson ** 44:07 and we read about it. And his father, he had how his father said, You'll really know you've arrived when you get to do something on Broadway. And that was the only thing he ever got to do on Broadway. And we did get to go see it. We saw, Oh, wow, yeah,   Carl Amari ** 44:20 Broadway, amazing, yeah, amazing, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 44:24 I'm so sad that there was so much acrimony for so many years between him and Dean Martin, yeah, which was really probably brought on more by all the people they worked with that, yes, that cost a whole lot more than them. But yeah, near the end they, they did deal with it a little Yeah?   Carl Amari ** 44:42 They, they got back together a little bit. Yeah, yeah. He was an interesting guy, Boy, I'll tell you. You know, just talking to him, I learned so much, learned so much over the years.   Michael Hingson ** 44:53 Yeah, yeah. It's so much fun to to be able to do that. Well, I really do hope you do get. To do another show, to do something else. And you're right, there's nothing like science fiction in terms of what you can do, and maybe even doing a series, yeah, yeah, as opposed to individual shows. One of my favorite science fiction books by Robert Heinlein is called the Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and I would love to see somebody dramatize that. I think it would take, probably, to do it right? It's going to take about 15 hours to do but, oh, wow. What a great what a great thing. If you've never read it, read the book, it's really, oh, I   Carl Amari ** 45:30 haven't, so I'm not familiar with it, so I'll give it a read. The Moon is a Harsh, missus,   Michael Hingson ** 45:34 yeah, yeah. Pretty clever. A computer helps organize a revolution on the moon, which was being colonized and run from the lunar authority on earth. Here's what gives it away in 2075 subtract 300 years. Yeah, it's all about the same thing, like the revolution here, but a computer, Mycroft wakes up and helps organize the revolution. It's really pretty clever. Oh, wow,   Carl Amari ** 46:04 that would be fun to do in a series. Yeah, it   Michael Hingson ** 46:08 would be worth doing. But, but, yeah, I've always enjoyed the book. Robert Donnelly read it as a talking book for blind people. Oh, okay, okay, yeah. So I actually have it. I'll have it, I'll have to find it. I could actually send you the recording. You could listen to it. Oh, please do. I'd love that. We won't tell the Library of Congress, so we will know much trouble.   Carl Amari ** 46:33 But you know, then I kind of, you know, my other passion is the Bible. Yeah, I was gonna get to that. Tell me, yeah. I was just gonna, you know, and so a lot of these same actors that did, you know, Twilight zones and things for for me, I just, I met, like Jason Alexander and so many of these people, Lou Gossett Jr, when I decided to do the to dramatize the entire Bible on audio. A lot of these same actors and many, many, many more, were really, were really great to be in that too. It was a lot of fun.   Michael Hingson ** 47:06 Yeah, well, very recognizable voices, to a large degree, like Michael York,   Carl Amari ** 47:12 yes, yes, he was the narrator. So he did the most. He worked the longest. What a great man. Just an amazing actor. He was the narrator. And then you know Jim Caviezel, who played Jesus in the Passion of the Christ, played Jesus in it, right? And then you know Richard Dreyfus was Moses John Voigt was Abraham. Max von Saito played Noah John Rees Davies was in it. I mean, we had, we had, I mean, Marissa Tomei was Mary Magdalene. I had many, many Academy Award winners in it, and so many people, you know, was in it. That was a four year deal that took me four years to do the full Bible. Yeah, 98 hours on audio, fully scored the whole thing.   Michael Hingson ** 48:01 Well, you had a great publisher put it out. Thomas Nelson, Yes, yep. They also did my first book, Thunder dog. So can't complain about that too much. No,   Carl Amari ** 48:10 they know how to market. It Was it, was it, I think, I think today it's still the number one selling dramatized Audio Bible in the world. I believe, you know, so it's, it's been a big success for Thomas Nelson, yeah, that was, that was, that was quite, I mean, you should have seen what my passport looked like when I did that. I mean, it was stamped for every country all over that I was going and, you know, and having to produce, because a lot of the actors, like, you know, John Reese Davies. He lives in, he lives in the Isle of Man, and, you know, and then, you know, Max von Saito was nice France, and we scored it in Bulgaria. And, I mean, you know, it was just crazy and traveling all over the world to make that audio. But you've done some other Bibles in addition to that. I have, yeah, yeah, I have. I've done, think I did. Now it's like five different ones, because I like doing different translations, you know, because it's different. I mean, even though it's the same story, the translations people people have translations that they love, you know, whether it's the RSV or it's the New Living Translation or the Nkj or, you know, and so I, I've enjoyed doing them in different translations. That's   Michael Hingson ** 49:25 pretty cool. Do you have any, any additional, additional ones coming out?   Carl Amari ** 49:29 No, no, I've done, I've done done, like, five and, and so I'm more doing, you know, more concentrating now on my radio show, Hollywood, 360, and, and some movie production stuff that I've been working on. And then I'm one of the owners of a podcast company. So we're, we're always putting out, you know, different podcasts and things. And so my plate is very full, although I would love, I think I would love to do some. Thing, like, what you're saying, like, either more Twilight zones, or maybe something like that. It might be, you know, I'd love to do something in the theater or the mind, you know, arena again, too, because I love doing that. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 50:11 I think it'd be a lot of fun to do. Tell me about the podcast,   Carl Amari ** 50:15 yeah. So, um, so we have a podcast company called Gulfstream studios, and we have our main, our main podcast is a is, is. So we're, we, we do a show called, well, there's, there's several podcasts that we're doing, but, but it's the spout is the is the one that's a music oriented we have all the biggest music artists on there. It's really great. So spout is the name of that podcast. And then we're working on, we're working on a Bible podcast. We're going to come out with some a Bible podcast pretty soon. I'm real excited about that more soon. Hopefully you'll have me back when we launch that. Well, yeah, and then, you know, we have, we're always looking for any so I'm ready to, I'm ready to take your podcast onto our platform. Whatever you say. Michael, oh, we'll have to,   Michael Hingson ** 51:10 we'll have to look at that and work it out. But in the meanwhile, I said earlier, I'd love to come on any of the podcasts that you want. And if, yeah, have you read thunder dog,   Carl Amari ** 51:19 no, I didn't know. I didn't have not read it. No. So thunderdog   Michael Hingson ** 51:23 was my story of being in the World Trade Center and getting out and so on. But you should read it, because there are also some, some really poignant parts, like, just to briefly tell that part of the story, I'll send you a video where of a speech I've given, but one of the parts of it is that, as I was running away from tower two, as it was collapsing, because we were at Vesey Street and Broadway, so we were like 100 yards away from tower two when it came down, I turned and ran back the way I came. And as I started to run, I started, I said to myself, and I stayed focused pretty much. But I said to myself at that point, God, I can't believe that you got us out of a building just to have it fall on us. Right? I heard a voice as clearly as we are hearing each other now in my head that said, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running with Roselle and the rest will take care of itself. Wow. And I had this absolute sense of certainty that if we just continue to work together, we would be fine. We did, and we were but I am very much a a person who believes in the whole concept of God. And for those who who may disagree with me, you're welcome to do that. You'll you'll just have to take that up with God or whatever at some point. But I would love to really explore anytime you you need a guest to come on and be a part of it, and who knows, maybe I'll be good enough to act in a radio show you do.   Carl Amari ** 52:49 I'm sure you would be, sure you would be Michael, but it would be, yeah, but it would   Michael Hingson ** 52:54 be fun to do. But I really enjoy doing all this stuff, and radio, of course, has become such a part of my life for so long, it has helped me become a better speaker. Was I travel and speak all over the world?   Carl Amari ** 53:10 Yeah, wow. Well, I'm a big fan of yours, and, and, but I'd love to read the book, so I'll order it. Can I get it off of Amazon or something like that? You can get   Michael Hingson ** 53:19 it off of Amazon. You can get it from Audible, okay, or wherever. And then I wrote, then we wrote two others. One's called running with Roselle, which was really intended more for kids talking about me growing up, and Roselle my guide dog at the World Trade Center growing up. But more adults buy it than kids. And then last year, we published live like a guide dog. True Stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith, and that one is really about people need to and can learn how to control fear and not let fear overwhelm or, as I put it, blind them. And you can actually learn to use fear as a very powerful tool to help you function, especially in emergencies and unexpected situations. And so live like a guide dog uses lessons I've learned from all of my guide dogs and my wife's service dogs, Fantasia that have taught me so much about learning to control fear. And I realized at the beginning of the pandemic, I've talked about being calm and focused getting out, but I've never taught anyone else how to do it, so live like a guide dog is my solution for that, which is kind of that, that,   Carl Amari ** 54:26 that I'm sure helps a lot of people, you know, that's because fear is, is, it's, it's debilitating, you know? So, yeah, well, that's, but it doesn't need doesn't need to be, that's right, that doesn't need to be, yeah, it's one of the reasons why I wanted to do the Bible stuff, because I learned at a very early age that these theater, these radio shows you under, you listen and you actually interpret them and understand them deeper with the theater of the mind than watching them on television or reading them like, like. I think even reading a book as great as that is, if you heard it dramatized on radio, it's even more powerful. I and so I knew that if I took the Bible, which is the greatest book of all time, and it was dramatized in a way, in a kind of a movie quality way, with sound effects and music and wonderful actors that I thought people would get a deeper meaning of the word. And I think we it. We were successful with that, because so many people have written about it on Amazon and things and saying like I, you know, when I heard the Word of Promise, and when I heard this audio, I had to go and get my Bible and see, does it really say that? You know? So here's people that had read the Bible many, many times, and then they heard the dramatization of it, and were like, wow, I didn't even realize that, you know, that was that happened in the Bible. So it's, it's, it's pretty cool, you know, to read those you know how it's helped people, and it's helped save souls, and it's just been a great you know, it's been a very rewarding experience. Have you   Michael Hingson ** 56:09 ever taken it and divided it up and put it on the radio? Well, that's   Carl Amari ** 56:12 one of the not in the radio, but we're going to do some podcast with, we're going to, we're going to be doing something really, really unique with, with one of my later ones that I did not the Word of Promise, but a different one. And, and it's going to, it's going to be really, really special. I can't wait to talk about it on your show. Looking   Michael Hingson ** 56:30 forward to it, yeah, well, we have had a lot of fun doing this, and I'm going to have to sneak away. So I guess we'll have to stop, darn but we do have to continue this. And, and I'd love to find ways to work together on projects and be a part of your world and love you to be more a part of mine. I'm really glad that we finally had a chance to get together and do all this. It's been a lot of fun. Me   Carl Amari ** 56:53 too, Michael, me too. It's really, I said it was an honor, and it really was an honor. And thank you so much. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 56:59 for all of you listening, we hope you've enjoyed this episode of unstoppable mindset. Love to hear your thoughts. Feel free to email me at Michael H I M, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I B, e.com, or go to our web page where we host the where we have the podcast, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, love to get your thoughts wherever you're listening. Please give us a five star rating. We value that very highly. We really appreciate you giving u

John Marvin grew up in Kansas as a member of a family with significant medical experience. John's father, for example, was a family physician in a small Western Kansas town. John describes some about his life and how his thoughts and attitudes were greatly influenced by his father. Late in his high school career John told his dad that he did not want to grow up to be a doctor because, as he put it, he didn't want to work as hard as his father worked. John will explain that to us. As he also put it, his comment came from a young naïve boy.   In college John settled on securing a marketing degree. After college he ended up going deeply into marketing and eventually he entered the optical industry specializing in optometry.   John and I have some wonderful discussions about self growth, leadership and how to help people and companies grow. I got, and I think you will get, many great ideas from John's experiences and that we all will be the better for what John has to say and teach us.       About the Guest:   John D. Marvin is an entrepreneur and dynamic leader with a proven track record of success in healthcare, wellness, and the eyecare industry. As President and CEO of Texas State Optical (TSO), he has transformed the organization into one of the largest and most respected networks of independent optometrists in the United States, generating upwards of $110 million in annual revenue. With over two decades of experience at TSO, John has cultivated a member-owned cooperative that empowers optometrists to operate independently while benefiting from robust centralized support. His leadership has been pivotal in fostering a culture of innovation, professional growth, and exceptional patient care. John's career spans over 40 years, during which he has held executive roles across various industries, including marketing, consulting, and healthcare. His entrepreneurial spirit is evident in his strategic leadership during TSO's transition from a retail chain to a cooperative network in 2001. Under his guidance, TSO shifted its focus from product-driven services to comprehensive medical eyecare, reinforcing its reputation as a patient-centered organization. Beyond TSO, John serves as President of Texas Eyecare Partners and Health and Wellness Consulting. As a lifelong advocate of personal growth, John has studied the transformative power of mindset and the “inner game” of success. His insights into leadership, achievement, and business management have made him a sought-after speaker and certified John Maxwell Professional Coach. John passionately shares his experiences to inspire others to unlock their potential, offering actionable strategies to overcome challenges and drive meaningful change. John's dedication to education and collaboration is evident in his efforts to support emerging professionals in the field of optometry. He has fostered strong relationships with the University of Houston's College of Optometry and the Texas Optometric Association, contributing to scholarships, professional development programs, and initiatives that promote medical optometry. Through his vision and unwavering commitment to excellence, John D. Marvin exemplifies the principles of leadership, empowerment, and innovation, making a lasting impact on the eyecare industry and beyond. Ways to connect John:   https://www.facebook.com/jdmarvin  https://www.linkedin.com/in/jdmarvin/  https://www.instagram.com/jdmarvin/ https://tso.com/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello, everyone. Once again, wherever you happen to be, I'm your host on unstoppable mindset, Mike Hingson, or you can call me Mike, whichever you prefer. And our guest today is John D Marvin. John is an entrepreneur. Has been an entrepreneur for quite a while, and he has been involved in a number of different kind of endeavors over his life. And he's worked, worked in the eye care industry a bunch, and is now in charge of Texas State Optical. We're going to learn more about that and and all the other things I don't know whether I care, does me a whole lot of good directly, but it's fun to talk about anyway. No, no doubt. So John, I want to really welcome you. I'm glad we finally made this work. I'm glad we got a chance to connect. So welcome to unstoppable mindset.   John D Marvin ** 02:13 Well, thank you, Mike. It's a real pleasure to be here.   Michael Hingson ** 02:15 Well, I'm glad that we we get a chance to really talk. We haven't really done too many podcasts on eye care and optical stuff, so I'm glad to be able to do it. But I'd like to start, as I'd love to do so often, tell us about kind of the early John growing up, and go from there.   John D Marvin ** 02:33 Okay, I was born and raised in Kansas. I that that's northern Texas, right? That's northern Texas. That's right, yeah, I actually grew up in western Kansas. I was born in Kansas City, but I grew up in western Kansas, and my father is a family physician, and had the kind of stereotypical country doctor practice small town, 2000 people, and my mother was his office manager for a number of years. And so it was a kind of a family business. And I have three siblings, sisters, and so we grew up in a small Mayberry type town, and it was great riding bicycles till the street lights came on at night, and catching fireflies and all that kind of good stuff. And then I decided to go to school. I chose to go to school in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and graduated, it's an emphasis in marketing and marketing and business administration, and ended up in the ad agency business for a little bit of a time, and just kind of really decided that wasn't for me, and ended up from there going into pharmaceutical sales. And really enjoyed that, and enjoyed the the outside sales aspects of it and calling on doctors. And my territory was western Kansas, so I used to say, and still refer to it as my territory looked like my high school football schedule. So we would go to these small towns. And of course, most everyone out there knew my father, and so the typical problem of trying to get past the front desk was made a little easier because people knew my family, and from that, I ended up taking an administrative, marketing administrators position with a group of surgeons in in Wichita, and that led to introduction and eating some ophthalmologists in Houston. Them and followed a job opportunity I had with them and came to Houston in 1989 I've been here ever since, but it was after four years of working with them, I ended up going out on my own and started my own business, which was Marketing Management Group, which did consumer research, and then we would develop marketing strategies based on that. And one of my clients, early clients, was Texas State Optical. And because of my background in eye care, both in Wichita, Kansas and in Houston, I had a better I got some insight into the consumer. And so the work I did with Texas State Optical was a lot we did a lot of work, and did several studies with them, and that kind of introduced me to the whole group of franchisees that made up the Texas State Optical organization. Subsequently, I helped them organize, the franchisees organize, and in the late 90s, 1999 I was hired by the franchisees to put together a Franchise Association, and through that, ultimately help them acquire the company, purchase it, and from that during that process, was asked if I would be willing to come on board as the new president of the company once they purchased it. And that was in 2001 and I've been president ever since. So here you go. It kind of takes you from Small Town Living to big city operations and a network of about 100 optometry offices.   Michael Hingson ** 06:47 So what exactly is Texas State Optical? Or maybe first, what was it and how is it morphed over time?   John D Marvin ** 06:56 Well, originally it was founded by four brothers in 1936 in Southeast Texas, little town called Beaumont, and famous for a lot of things in that part of the state. One of them is Janis Joplin, the others, Big Bopper and George Jones and but it also was the birthplace of Texas State Optical. And they grew a network of privately owned they owned them all over 300 locations throughout Texas, Mexico, Oklahoma and Arkansas, Louisiana and and then in the early 70s, they sold it to a pharmaceutical company, ironically, the same one that I had worked for when I was calling on western Kansas. But when they sold it, it got converted to a traditional franchise model, and it stayed that way until the franchisees purchased it in 2001 when we I was involved, and we turned it into a brand license business, taking that iconic license that had been around Texas optical since the 30s, 1930s and and then turning around and licensing the use of that brand to young optometrist who wanted to own their own practice, but saw the use of that brand as kind of instant credibility, because a lot of people were familiar with that brand.   Michael Hingson ** 08:40 So what does it provide? What did one of the organization provide under the brand? Well,   John D Marvin ** 08:46 we use the use of the brand, and so you got immediate notoriety in terms of just people's awareness of it, but also we put together kind of a la carte menu of optional services and support and resources that licensees could either take advantage of or not, and it was a really hands off model. We didn't have any, and still don't have any operational control over the way business was done. We We influenced that through best practices and sharing of information, but certainly we didn't require have any requirements of the way that they would operate. Reality is most private practice optometrists operate pretty well, and so we were there to kind of coach and help, but mainly it was them using our brand name, which had a really strong consumer value to it.   Michael Hingson ** 09:44 And so what kind of changes when the franchisees all joined together and bought the company and so on? How have you and they changed it over the years.   John D Marvin ** 09:59 I. I think the biggest change from 1999 to 2001 when they bought it, and to this day, has been the culture of the company. And that is, you know, it's something of a franchise opportunity, yeah, and a lot of your listeners probably either own franchises. Thought about franchises, and you know, it might you and I spent the next year trying to decide we were going to own a franchise. And we'd go out and do all sorts of research, and we'd look into this one and that one, and what kind of industry we want, and we'd finally select one that we were really impressed with. Thought about for great opportunity. We'd pay our $50,000 franchise fee, and about the second or third day of owning that franchise, we would decide that these people don't know anything about this business that we're in, and there's just this inherent adversarial relationship that exists between a franchisee and a franchisor. Some for good reason, some just because of the independent, entrepreneurial nature of a franchisee. Well, when the franchisees owned the company, they owned the franchise, or that adversarial dynamic kind of left. And so now there's nobody to kind of blame except yourself, and people are inclined not to do that as much. And so there was a greater tendency to kind of work together, work through things, come up with solutions to problems or resources that were needed. And it just created a much more homogeneous type of culture, and to the point where our annual meeting we host every year is referred to as our family reunion. And so we gather everyone together. It's really an atmosphere of all of us being as one family, sharing the same kind of core values, and all out to do the same thing, and that is just provide great quality eye care for our communities. And so that, that is a big change. Of course, there's always the things like collective purchasing, education and training. The main difference in those areas are engagement. When you are asked by a franchisor to engage in certain activities, there's that inherent reluctance to do that in our organization. There's an inherent acceptance of it because it comes from a colleague, it comes from others and doctors are more leading doctors than they are being led by some set of suits someplace in the Northeast.   Michael Hingson ** 12:50 Yeah, and that is such an extremely important thing to be able to really make it a family, a disciplined family, but still a family nevertheless, which is kind of cool. I'm curious about something being blind, and having been blind my whole life, and involved with blindness consumer organizations, one of the things that we have found often is that most people in the eye care industry, primarily in the ophthalmological industry, which is kind of a little bit more relevant to us, but tend not to really have a lot of knowledge about blindness and blind people. And so, for example, there are so many stories of a person going into the office of an ophthalmologist, for example, maybe they're losing their eyesight, but the ophthalmologist examines them and for whatever reason, will say things like, you're going blind. I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do, and walk out and never provide any other kinds of resources or knowledge to help the person who's losing eyesight. I don't know whether you see that, given where you are or what your thoughts are on that, but I'd be interested to get your thoughts because it seems to me that there's a lot of opportunity to do significant education about blindness and low vision to recognize that the reality is, blindness isn't the problem. It's people's attitudes traditionally that are the problem.   John D Marvin ** 14:28 That's an excellent point. Mike, I you know my first thoughts are the profession of optometry is really involved in preventing right blindness, and so it's kind of one of the few areas of healthcare that is more prevention oriented than other areas. Most areas are treatment oriented. In other words, you become sick. And then we treat you right, and the profession of optometry is all about we talk to people all the time about protecting your vision and preventing problems from happening. Now, as we see patients that end up either through glaucoma or some form of pathology, retinal issues, start to lose their vision. There comes a point early in that process where they are, frankly, they are outside of the scope of care that an optometrist can provide. So they end up being referred to an ophthalmologist. That being said, there are several optometrists across the country that have decided to devote themselves to low vision, and that's kind of a form of blind and what I would call blindness care, and where it's not complete, there is some level of vision there, but it needs a lot of enhancement, either through equipment or through other types of therapeutics practices. And there are optometrists who say, I'm not going to sell glasses. I'm not going to focus on contacts. I'm going to just provide a low vision clinic. And they're not not there's not a large number of them, but there are some, and what I've experienced in that is it does take a particular type of practitioner to be successful with that. And when I say successful, I mean, to be able to establish the type of patient doctor relationship that actually produces some really positive outcomes and helps people better manage their loss of vision, either whether that's progressive and eventually will become complete, or whether It's stalled at a point where they just cannot function without special aid, like I said, equipment, or some type of therapeutics. And there's just not a lot of people go into Optometry for the refractive side of things, and and so there's, there's not that motivation, really, to learn much about it. We do as an organization. We're very involved with prevent blindness as a national organization, and we'd also have some involvement with low vision clinics that are in the Houston Medical Center. But outside of that, you're right. There's not a whole lot of folks that understand it, probably, or maybe it's just they don't have the patience for it, because it does require a different kind of patient care approach, even   Michael Hingson ** 17:55 so what I wonder is, if there is an opportunity, maybe to provide additional education, so that if your your franchisees, for example, encounter a person who's losing eyesight and they and they realize that that they can help refer them to sources or resources that can assist because part of the problem is that, typically in society, blindness is viewed as such a horrible, devastating thing. And I understand that eyesight is a very wonderful thing, and people want to have it, but the reality is for a variety of reasons that doesn't work for everyone. The problem is that we have so much fear of blindness that we don't tend to deal with and I just wonder if there might be a way to provide some sort of a system or program that would help teach your people that blindness isn't really the end of the world, which is not to say, don't try to prevent it if you can, but when you can't, you can also be an additional source. To say, here are places where you can go, or here are some things that you can learn.   John D Marvin ** 19:16 Well, I do think that it's important, and I'm aware of many, keeping in mind that our members who own locations that use our brand are independent, we have provided them local organizations, clinics, things like that, which help them in referring people that need that kind of help and in education, I think also an important factor is that it's not just the patient that can use that it's the patient's family, because it, while it's perceived as something that you know you. I know that people value their sight, and the thought of losing it and becoming blind is is frightening the individual, but it also is frightening and disruptive to family, who father, mother, wife, husband, son or daughter, to deal with the changes in lifestyle that are required to accommodate that. Loss of vision is significant. You mentioned you've been blind since birth, and that's certainly one group of people, but there's an awful lot of people that end up experiencing blindness when they're in their 30s or 40s, after they've had a large portion of their life with vision. And it's, I don't want to say it's easier by any means. I first of all, I have no right in even suggesting that, but it's a different experience, for sure, not ever having had vision, versus having had it for a number of years and then losing it. And sometimes it might be as scary and frightening for the family around that person as it is the patient themselves. And so we do place a high value on getting people the kind of help and resources they need to better adjust to those changes.   Michael Hingson ** 21:28 Well, when I was born, I actually became blind because of what we now call retinopathy or prematurity, which originally was retro enterofibroplasia, which is harder to spell, but I love the term anyway. At about four months of age, it was discovered that I was blind, and the doctors told my parents they ought to just send me off to a home, because no blind child could ever grow up to be a contributor to society, and all I would do would be a drain on the family and then later on society. And my parents were very unusual in taking the stand that, no, you're wrong. He can grow up to do whatever he wants, and we're going to give him that opportunity. And that was, and really to a very large degree today, still is, a very unusual attitude to take, because we fear blindness so much, and while I appreciate the reality of eyesight is very important for most people, what I would love to see are ways to create more of an understanding so that People understand that blindness isn't the end of the world, and that's what what we see all too often in society in general, which is unfortunate, and you're right. I don't know whether it's easier if you're blind from the outset or become blind later in life. I know any number of people who became blind later in life, who went to programs where philosophically, they were taught blindness was not a problem, and they learned that they could continue to be contributors to society, and they tend to intend to Do that, as opposed to many others from both camps and from birth or not who never understand. Blindness isn't going to be the end of the road if people let it be. So it's it's just one of those conundrums that we end up having to deal with on a regular basis.   John D Marvin ** 23:38 The name of your podcast dealing with mindset, right? A lot of it is exactly that. And if you're find yourself in a you know, the child who's born blind can either have a support system and family and parents that impact his his or her mindset in a way that creates the expectation and understanding that it it doesn't have to be limiting. And same goes with someone who's blind later in life, right? It's a matter of how you look at and decide for yourself. I mean, we all know people that, whether it's a loss of a one of the most five senses, the important senses, sight or hearing, so forth, there is a natural mind. There's one set of mind people that have a mindset that, oh, poor you. Now you've got insurmountable challenges in your life, and this is going to be difficult the rest of your life. And then the other mindset that many parents have recognizing their opportunity they have with their child is to say, yes, that's you. But that doesn't have to define you, that doesn't limit you. You can overcome those things and and I think that that is even in our business, where you have someone who comes into the office and through some type of diagnostic testing, it's determined that they are losing their sight, and that the natural outcome of this progression of pathology will be the total loss of sight. We have the opportunity there, at that point, to affect their mindset, yeah, and to either tell them this is a circumstance that will not limit you or define you, and here are some resources and education materials and opportunities in that area that can help you better understand what you're living with and how that you can overcome that, just from the census standpoint, because It doesn't have to be something you have to overcome in life, per se. It just has to be an accommodation you make, because you can't see when other people can right. And it is all about mindset.   Michael Hingson ** 26:13 It is all about mindset. No doubt about it, you're absolutely correct in that regard. And it is, it is something that we'll all be dealing with for a while, but hopefully over time, the mindset of people will change to recognize that there are always alternatives. Being a Star Trek fan, I love Spock and Kirk who are always talking about there are always options, and there are always ways to get around doing things or to accomplish things that you might not think about, but you have to be multi dimensional in your thought process.   John D Marvin ** 26:52 Well, the other exciting aspect of all of this is the the fact that those with growth mindsets are working diligently on technologies that can actually supplant the deficiency and come up with ways to correct blindness. And so there we may even, in our lifetime, live to a point where the pathological condition that you were born with doesn't have to be permanent. It can be reversed using technology that provides you with as good, if not better, vision than people who weren't born in that same situation.   Michael Hingson ** 27:33 Yeah, the only people who never will come out of it are politicians, because they take dumb pills when they become politicians. So we can pick up them.   John D Marvin ** 27:40 Well, listen, just you could be blind and still be able to see, right? Yeah, that   Michael Hingson ** 27:47 leaves them out. Yeah. No, I understand. I understand they're fun to pick on. But you what? What really made you decide to go into the eye care industry, into that, that whole environment, what, what attracted you to it, or was it just sort of so natural? Well, obviously, that's a mindset. Yeah,   John D Marvin ** 28:10 there's a couple of things. Think the thing that attracted me to kind of eye care in general, and put ophthalmology and Optometry in the same bucket for this. What attracted me to was this whole area of health care that I kind of grew up in with my father and family practice in a small town. Because, you know, my family practice in the 60s and 70s was a whole different discipline than it is today. Oh, I know, you know, especially in a small town where the closest specialist, if you would, is 90 miles away. And so my father had to be what we call today, functionally, you know, a functional medicine, meaning that he had to be able to kind of treat the whole person. I mean, he used to be very proud of the fact that a large percentage of the kids that were in the school that I grew up in, he delivered and so, you know, there was no obstetrician in this small town. So if a woman became pregnant, then he provided her prenatal care. He gave, he delivered the child, and then he gave the provided the pediatric care afterwards. And so having that sense of kind of the global care of of someone kind of gave me a real appreciation for the kind of the system, the the systemic aspects of health. And when I was given an opportunity to get into the eye care business. Because I saw it more as getting into the healthcare business, and even though it was very narrow, defined in eye care, it gave me a connection. And I I'm a big believer that you start down a path and you follow it. And what maybe forest and trees and gardens, they may turn into desert or mountains or valleys or otherwise. So when I started, I really didn't know necessarily where it would go. And I guess you could even back it up and say that my whole entry into the pharmaceutical industry kind of started me down that path and and then that led to being in the practitioner side, which ultimately led to going from ophthalmology into Optometry. I frankly think that all of that background best prepared me to do what I'm doing today, and understanding the whole system of eye care, not just refractions and glasses and contacts, right?   Michael Hingson ** 31:11 Well, you know, and you started out in in the whole marketing world, as opposed to going off and becoming a doctor directly, which which gave you a different perspective. So it really makes sense as to what you're saying and it but you've had exposure to both sides, and that has to really help you in terms of doing the job that you've chosen to do.   John D Marvin ** 31:38 Yeah, I think you're right. I remember having the discussion with my father because as I was like a junior in high school and, and as most juniors you know, you start thinking about what you're going to do when you graduate high school and, and I was graduating high school at a time that I had a draft number given to me, there was a war over in Vietnam that was still going on, and so I, you know, there for a period of time, I didn't know whether I would even have a choice. Yeah, it turns out by the time I actually that last year between junior and senior, the war had really started to wind down. And while I got a draft number, it was very high, and the likelihood of me actually being drafted into service was very low. And so I made some decisions about what I was going to do post high school, and I remember having the discussion with my father about would he be disappointed if I decided I didn't want to be a physician? And he assured me that he wouldn't be disappointed, but he was curious as to why I was not interested in doing that, and I told him, I said, just to be candid, I don't know if I want to work as hard as you do, because at that time, I had spent many Christmases with him, not at home, even though, our town, I mean, you could almost walk to the hospital. Our Town was small enough that, but he was taking care of people in the hospital on Christmas Day or delivering a baby on Christmas Day, and he just, you know, it was clear that in that profession, the way he practiced it in those days was that the patients came first, and the family understood that. And we were all in the doctor business to in that respect, and this whole concept of work life balance was, you know, no one looked at things like that. I mean, everyone understood that this was a commitment that had been made, and it involved the entire family. So I told him, I said, I don't know if I'm willing to do that or not. And so I thought at that time, I decided that I was going to pursue a career in theology, and so that determined where I went to school. And about after my first year in school, I the university I had chosen, their whole theological department was more pastoral, and I wasn't interested in that. I was more evangelical. I was more interested in being an evangelist and and so I not having that in front of me. I decided that it switched to a marketing degree. And it turns out that to be a pretty good evangelist, you got to be a little bit of a marketing person yourself. Anyway, true. So, so I ended up going down that path.   Michael Hingson ** 34:53 Well, I would say if you had chosen the pastoral approach, you would have been working just. Just hard as a doctor. Oh, very much. So, yeah, but I guess I would also ask this whole issue of not working as hard given what you do today, how's that working out for you? Well,   John D Marvin ** 35:14 those were words of a very naive young guy. Yeah, because I didn't take I didn't understand the fact that if you're going to accomplish anything, it's going to require hard work, and you need a family that understands what your what your passion is, and what you've decided to do, and because it is, I mean, no one builds a career by themselves. They they build a career with the involvement and support of other people, and if, if they, if those beliefs aren't aligned, then you're going to end up in conflict and be constantly be torn between what it is you believe you're wanting to do with your life, versus your obligations, your other obligations. And put it   Michael Hingson ** 36:04 that way, well, you've been involved in the whole mindset and activity of being a business leader for a long time. What kind of key lessons have you learned along the way about personal growth?   John D Marvin ** 36:21 I think the thank you for that question. I think the one thing that I have learned, that I've tried to pass on to people is start, begin we I think that we naturally have this reluctance to take risk, because we don't want to fail at anything and and so we kind of take the approach that, well, if I want to pursue something, whether it be personal development or growth or even some profession, I need to know everything there is to know about it before I start it. And that is just not true. The only way you learn is by starting I have a friend and acquaintance who his career and his profession is leading people on climbs of Mount Everest. So that's his job. If you want to climb Mount Everest, I can hook you up with a guy that will help you do it. And it's a fascinating profession that he's in. And I asked him one time, how do you learn how to climb mountains. You know, how do you learn this? He said the only way to learn how to climb mountains is by climbing   Michael Hingson ** 37:46 mountains. I was gonna say, to do it, yes. And   John D Marvin ** 37:49 so I think the number one thing is to start. And if you're committed to it and you start, you'll figure it out. The rest of it, because there are no failures, there's maybe a setback or two, but as long as you keep focused on where you want to be and moving forward and getting better and learning, you'll figure things out. And I think so personal growth is really a decision and a commitment to continual learning, continual improvement and and you're never too late to get started. It's never too late, even if you're at 80 some years of age and maybe limited health wise, you can still start because there's so much, there's so many different resources today that are available to people. I mean, I got an iPad Mike, that's, I bet you I've got three 400 books on it. And, you know, used to be you couldn't have three or 400 books without a library in your house. Now you can have one iPad on a memory card. And I was just, I had a doctor's appointment earlier today, and while I was waiting in the reception, I pulled out my phone and I started reading a book that I'm reading, you know, and I had, didn't have to carry the book The lot of people do, lot of people have, but I was able to do that. And then there's what's available in terms of resources, of books to read are just unlimited. So I think that there's, there's all sorts of opportunities, just a matter of getting started and doing it. Second is consistency. Everybody can start. Few people can be consistent, or few people are consistent. We all know the classic, never if you're if you're someone who goes to a gym and works out, you know. Avoid that gem the first month of the year in January, because it is overrun with people who are starting their new year, and then by February, you also know that you're back to normal, because most people don't stay consistent. So starting and then becoming consistent are the two things that are probably most important, that I've learned   Michael Hingson ** 40:25 well, and that kind of leads to something I was thinking about, and that is the connection between mindset and long term achievement. Because it would seem to me that, as you point out with the gym, the people who create the mindset that I'm going to do this and really decide that that's what they're going to do, are more likely to have analyzed it and made that decision intelligently and then we'll stick with it, than people who just go off and say, I'm going to do it, but really haven't established A mindset, right?   John D Marvin ** 40:59 That's exactly true. And you know, people tend to focus on volume as opposed to continuity. And what I mean by that is people go to the gym and they they put all this intensity into the first day they haven't worked out in weeks or months, or even maybe a few years, and then the next day they're so sore they can't get out of bed and they can't so they decide they're going to take the next day off rest, and then that turns into a week off. And I'm a student of John Maxwell, the author, and he talks about what he calls the rule of five, and he illustrates it by saying that if you have a tree in your backyard that you're wanting to take out, you can take an ax and you can go out there and you can swing that Ax five times, and put down the ax and come back tomorrow morning, hit it five times. Come back tomorrow morning, hit it five times. And over a period of time, that tree will come down, or you can go out there and just try to chop and chop and chop, and that tree will defeat you, because you will run out of energy and you'll be too tired to finish it, but if you'll just be consistent over a time with the rule of five, and he talks about it in any profession, if you want to get good at it, figure out what are the five things you need to do every single day to grow in that direction and to accomplish what you need to accomplish. And so I think that you're right that over a period of time, long term success is not done through intensity. It's done through consistency. And he also says, you know, you're never going to change anything in your life until you change what you do daily? And that is very, very true.   Michael Hingson ** 43:09 I know I haven't really been the greatest at doing a lot of exercising and so on, and a lot of walking, and especially here in the winter, it gets really cold, and so I tend not to do it. But what I figured out, actually, a couple of years ago was we have a wonderful, great room with an island in the middle of it, and I will just put on a book and listen to it and do laps around the bar, and I'll get up to 10 and 15,000 steps a day just walking around the bar. Now it's not going uphill and downhill, but still a lot of good exercise. And I find that not only does that work, but I enjoy it, because I get to read at the same time or do other things. Of course, my dog probably thinks I'm nuts, and my cat, my cat avoids me. But by the same token, you know, it is exercise, and I found that I have no problem really doing that every day, absolutely.   John D Marvin ** 44:12 And you know, we we live in a gym, yeah, and whether it's your room, your great room with an island, or whether it's a backyard or your neighborhood, we lived in a gym. I think that was illustrated in one of the Rocky movies really well when he was held up in northern Russia and just worked out using the materials that were with him. And so there really is no excuse to doing something, and doing something is better than doing nothing at all, and doing something every day will deliver unbelievable results over time.   Michael Hingson ** 44:59 It's a. All about establishing the mindset. Yes, it is. Well, you know, you've done this work for a long time. What kind of advice would you give to people starting out to help them get the mindset and achieve what they want to do with their goals?   John D Marvin ** 45:19 Well, first of all, I think developing and writing a personal growth plan, and I mean writing, setting down and starting, for instance, I made a decision several years ago that I wanted to get better at communication. So that was a decision. And the side of all the things that I wanted to try to commit to developing or growing in or learning, I picked communication. Why did you want as one of it? Because I felt like it was extremely important that you never accomplish, or I didn't believe that I was going to accomplish what I wanted to in life without the ability to communicate well with others, whether that be my spouse or whether it be the people I work with the customers I serve. I wanted to be good at communicating. I wanted to become good at that. I also had a friend tell me one time said, you know, if you will read five books on any subject, you'll know more about that subject than 99% of the people. And so I decided, Okay, I'm going to find five books on communication, and I'm going to commit myself to reading those over the course of the next year. And I just, you know, went out and started trying to determine what are really good books about communication. Some of them I kind of knew, like How to Win Friends and Influence People. That was one that I knew. Okay, I'm going to put that one on the list. Now I need four more, and one of them I knew that John Maxwell had written. So I you know, everybody communicates, but few people connect, and I said, Okay, I'm going to be another one. So I just kind of put together my little library of five books, and I started so I had developed very narrow and limited, but I had developed my own personal growth plan as relates to communication. So as I would tell my grandson, or I would tell a friend, if you want to start on developing a mindset and developing personal growth, sit down and make a plan for what you're going to do. And it's interesting, because if you'll ask people, tell me about your and I do this with people who work for me, and when I'm hiring, tell me about your personal growth plan. What is your personal growth plan? And you know, most people don't even know what I'm talking about, so they start making stuff up, and it becomes real obvious that they don't have one. From my employees, I require that as a part of their job and their annual performance review, we go over their personal growth plan. I want them to become more valuable over the course of this next year, because to themselves, because if they do, then they become more valuable to the company, right? And so I would instruct somebody to sit down and start and make a plan and identify something you want to be better at and and start growing in those areas that that described as starting with communication, has grown now to seven different areas in my life, and I've got at least five, in some cases, more books in each of those areas. And so I've got a very busy personal growth plan that I I work on each year.   Michael Hingson ** 49:12 Do you find that, as you read books on these subjects, as you're dealing with your personal growth, that in reality, you know a lot of the stuff already, at least to a degree. But by the same token, reading what others have written tends to drive the point home a whole lot more. And I ask that from the standpoint of common sense.   John D Marvin ** 49:40 Well, I think so. I mean how to win, which   Michael Hingson ** 49:42 doesn't mean that you don't learn things from the books, but, but a lot of it is, is stuff that you Intuit   John D Marvin ** 49:50 Yeah, I think that you know, a great example that comes to mind is How to Win Friends And yes, people that book, if you read it, it's like, well, yeah, naturally. Of course, but if you read it and you focus, you know, if you read it with the attitude, I want to learn something from this, then you begin to internalize what you're reading. And as you internalize it, you develop more cognitive, a cognitive awareness of it. And what I find super interesting is that book is on my list every year, so I commit myself to read that book every year. So now you know, this year will be probably my 15th, 16th time reading it. What I find fascinating is, I'll read the same chapter I've read, and I'll learn something new, something new, yeah, each time. Because, much like the saying about you can't step in the same stream twice, because it's not the same stream and you're not the same person. Same goes with reading material. You can read that book a second time, and you'll get something out of it, because you're not the same person that you were the first time you read it. And as you mature in your understanding, you get more knowledge out of the reading. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 51:17 Which? Which makes perfect sense, which also says a lot about the quality of the author. But you're right. You will always, if you look for new things to learn, you'll find new things to learn absolutely, which is what makes it so cool. And I I tell people all the time, and I'm not sure they always understand it. If I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else by being involved in this podcast, then I'm not doing my job. Because I believe every episode gives me as much, if not more, of an opportunity to learn as guests or all the people who listen, which is why I think it's so much fun, because I think that learning is as fun as it gets.   John D Marvin ** 52:05 It is, I mean, you're absolutely right, you know, they also, there's a you never learn anything quite as well as when you have to teach it, yeah, you know. And in a way, by hosting a podcast, your your preparation for it, you're setting down, your concentration on it forces you to absorb from every interview that you do, and you can't help but walk away with being different than it was when you sat down to start it. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 52:42 one of my favorite books is a science fiction book written by Robert Heinlein. It's called the Moon is a Harsh Mistress. And I don't know whether you read my science fiction. I   John D Marvin ** 52:52 don't, but that sounds interesting. So   Michael Hingson ** 52:54 the basic premise is, it takes place in 2075 there's a hint, and it's all about the moon, which is being controlled by the lunar authority on earth. And it really parallels the American Revolution. The difference is that a computer on the moon, as they put it, wakes up and helps in doing the revolution that eventually gets Moon free from the earth, but one of the major characters is Professor Bernardo dela Paz, who is a teacher. And one of the things that the that the storyteller describes on a regular basis is how Professor dela Paz can teach on basically any subject, as long as he stays at least one lesson ahead of the people who he's teaching, which often does. So he teaches so many different things, but all he does is works to stay just a little bit ahead of the people that he's teaching, so that he can go back and teach it, and of course, as as you and I would say when he's teaching it, he also learns a whole lot more. But I think it's such a clever book.   John D Marvin ** 54:11 It sounds like it science fiction, but if I if that, when that strikes me that'll be one I put down to read.   Michael Hingson ** 54:23 I think it's the I believe it's high lines better. His best book. A lot of people talk about another one called Stranger in a Strange Land, which is about Mars and the earth. But I think that the Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Was his best book, most imaginative book, which is kind of fun, yeah, but you know, it's, it's, it's just one of those things that I've just it's always stuck with me that dela Paz did that well. So over the time, being the president and CEO of Texas State Optical, i. Uhm, how has that shaped or changed your your views on leadership? Because I'm sure you've, you've had lots to do and lots to think about. I'm sure it's had an effect on you.   John D Marvin ** 55:12 Yeah, I, I think the biggest impact has been it's, it's of what it's required of me in in developing my leadership abilities and deep and making those abilities effective towards an outcome. And let me try to shed on that I mentioned earlier. I'm a student of Maxwell, and Maxwell has a definition of leadership is influence, and and he said leadership is is influence. It's nothing more than that. And, and so at first I didn't know what that meant. And then, as he goes on to explain, and it makes sense, oftentimes, you will, the leadership is not a matter of title. It's not a matter of position. Leadership is influence and the ability to influence. And you can walk into a room and you will observe the group, and in one corner, maybe somebody that is obviously the focus of the attention of the others, and that person is exerting leadership influence. They may not be the may not have title, and they may not be in any position of authority over the others, but the others will follow that person, because that person has influence on them. And so I've in my understanding of that, and then trying to live that I've seen that develop in my own ability. And then I have to sit down and say, okay, if I'm going to be a leader of my team, my executives that will report to me, how am I going to provide that influence. And so you begin to break that down and try to figure out because everyone's different. I mean, I I have four people that report to me, each one of them, I will have to affect and influence those people differently. And it starts with understanding them. And so what it's done is it's helped me to really understand that principle that offered by Maxwell, and then how to incorporate that into my life, so that I feel now confident in my ability to be a leader of any group or situation I find myself in, and I've just agreed to accept a new responsibility in a trade association, and I have confidence that I can provide a strong level of leadership, not because I'm the smartest person in the room, but because I have the ability of providing influence over that organization or in that group through better understanding of others that I Have a position over, so to speak. But you know, it's like the best arenas to develop leadership is a volunteer organization, because that's the only way you're going to get anything done, is to have influence, because these people don't have to do anything that you say. And so oftentimes, if you have the authority, you misuse it, and you provide nothing in the way of leadership to a group. That happens all the time.   Michael Hingson ** 59:13 I think that too many, and I use the term in quotes, leaders, think that the whole idea is that they're the boss. Well, bosses are not necessarily leaders, and you're right. Leaders are not necessarily bosses. Directly. It is all about influence. And unfortunately, all too often, the people who have influence may not be the designated leader, but then the leaders or bosses get jealous of those people, which is also extremely unfortunate they don't get it.   John D Marvin ** 59:45 It's a it can be threatening if you're a boss and you've got people that are supposed to report to you and they're listening or being influenced by someone else who may not be. Intentionally trying to subvert the boss. It's just they, they're more effective in that and so that's threatening. And so oftentimes, given that authority, they misuse it. And   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:15 the good leaders, however, when they see that happening, will try to go and understand from in part, the person who's the real influencer, what it is that they need to improve on to be able to be more effective. But that happens so rarely, by comparison to the number of people who are out there.   John D Marvin ** 1:00:38 Yeah, it's too often politics, and I don't mean that in the government sense, but corporate politics determines positions of authority, and you end up with a bunch of very ill equipped people with an awful lot of leadership responsibilities, but lacking in any kind of real leadership skill,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:02 yeah, which is something that we need to devote more time to teaching, but people also need to be willing to learn it, and that gets to be a challenge. Well, I have to tell you, this has been fun, and I know you have other things to do in the course of the day and enjoying the weather down there, so I want to let you go, but I really have enjoyed having you on and I've enjoyed all the different insights that you've brought. So I really appreciate you being here to do all of that. So maybe we'll have it again. That would be kind of fun.   John D Marvin ** 1:01:41 Well, my I've thoroughly enjoyed this as I mean, you make it so easy to visit. You're You're a tremendous host and good interviewer, good questions. You threw a couple at me there that I had to really stop and think about. And so anytime you'd be willing to have me back. I'd love to join you again sometime.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:02 Well, I want to thank you, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching us today. We really appreciate you being here. I'd love to hear your thoughts on today and what we've talked about. You're welcome to email me. It's easy. It's Michael, M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I V, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is at www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O, n.com/podcast, if you know anyone else who you think ought to be a guest on our podcast, love to hear from you. We're always looking for more people to chat with. And in part, my motivation is I want to learn too. But the more people who come on, the more people we get to learn about who themselves are unstoppable. So please don't hesitate to refer people to it. And you know, John, you as well. We really value that wherever you listening, give us a five star rating. We value that. We appreciate your ratings and and love them. But once again, John, I want to thank you. This has been absolutely fun, and I'm glad you came   John D Marvin ** 1:03:13 well. Thank you. Thank you very much.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:20 you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

I have had the honor and pleasure to have on the Unstoppable Mindset podcast many healers, thought leaders and practical intelligent people who have generously given their time and insights to all of you and me during this podcast. This episode, our guest Kay Hutchinson adds a great deal to the knowledge base we all have gained from our other guests. Kay's childhood was interesting in that she is half Japanese and half African American. This race mixture provided Kay with many life challenges. However, her parents taught her much about life and understanding so she was able to work through the many times where people treated her in less than an equal manner. Also, Kay being the child of a military father had the opportunity to live in both the United States and Japan. She gained from this experience a great deal of knowledge and experience about life that she willingly shares with us.   After college Kay went into teaching. Just wait until you hear what class she first had to teach, but she persevered. Through all her life she has felt she could assist people in healing others as you will hear. After teaching for a few years, she decided to make energy healing a full-time profession.   Along the way she fell in love and married. Unfortunately, as she will tell us, she discovered that her husband exhibited extreme narcissistic behaviors which eventually lead to a divorce. I leave it to Kay to tell the story.   Kay offers some pretty great insights and lessons we all can use to center ourselves. I very much hope you like what she has to say.       About the Guest:   Imagine the exhaustion, anxiety and utter soul depletion that results when you are in a narcissistic relationship.  Then, imagine being told that you have to go through years of counseling and perhaps even take anti-depressants to begin reclaiming your identity, health, emotional and financial stability, and restore your ability to experience God' joyousness. That's the journey that Kay Hutchinson was on in 2019 when she divorced a narcissist who dragged her through a nearly year-long court battle that almost destroyed her 15-year energy medicine practice where she specialized in helping empathic women make their sensitivities their super powers and left her with relentless shingles outbreaks and collapsed immunity. Through the journey of rebuilding her health and life, she discovered  the one thing that no one was talking about in terms of the recovery from narcissistic abuse…that narcissists damage the five energy tanks that rule our physical, emotional, financial and soul health. Yet no one was showing women how to repair themselves energetically.  But,  without repairing those tanks, women suffer for years with anxiety, depression, exhaustion and a multitude of debilitating physical health challenges. So, Kay created the first medical qi gong recovery program for narcissistic abuse survivors that use 5 minute energy resets to help women effortlessly re-ignite their body, mind and soul potential. For example, Kay's client Donna, whose health was devastated by the stress of a narcissistic marriage, was able to use the resets to reverse stage 5 kidney damage in only 90 days, preventing Donna from going on dialysis and empowering her to reclaim her life. With newfound health, Donna was able to rebuild her realty business and remarry. Her pastor husband and her are now building a successful ministry helping others. Kay is here today to share more inspirational stories like this and delve into the topic of energy vampirism –how we lose energy to toxic people and more importantly—what we can to stop the drain and become unstoppable in reclaiming our body, mind and soul potential when our energy has been decimated by a narcissist.  Ways to connect Kay:   Get Your Mojo Back Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/get-your-mojo-back-quick-resets-to-help-empathic-women/id1699115489 Website: https://www.aikihealing.com/ Free Healing Session: https://www.aikihealing.com/free-healing-for-narcissistic-abuse-priority-list Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/aikihealingresets/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AikiHealingResets/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@aikihealing   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And as I've explained, the reason we word it that way is that diversity typically doesn't tend to involve disabilities, so inclusion comes first, because we don't allow people to be inclusive unless they're going to make sure that they include disabilities in the conversation, but mostly on the on the unstoppable mindset podcast, we don't deal as much with inclusion or diversity. We get to deal with the unexpected, which is anything that doesn't have to do directly with inclusion or diversity. And so today, in talking to Kay Hutchinson, we have a situation where we are going to talk about unexpected kinds of things, and that's what we're really all about. So Kay Hutchinson is our guest today. She has quite a story about, well, I'm not going to tell you all about it, other than just to say it's going to involve narcissism and it's going to involve a whole bunch of things. Kay is a podcaster. She's a coach, and she does a number of things that I think are really well worth talking about. So without further ado, Kay, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Kay Hutchinson ** 02:40 Oh, Michael, every cell in my body is happy to be here today. I'm so thrilled. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 02:47 good. I just want to make sure all the cells are communicating with you, and they're all saying good things they   Kay Hutchinson ** 02:52 are. Oh, good, absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 02:56 Sell by cell. Let's, let's do a roll call and see how long that takes. But there we go. Well, I'm really glad that you are here. I'd like to start by kind of learning about the early K, growing up and all that sort of stuff. It's always fun to start that way, sort of like Lewis Carroll, you know, you start at the beginning. But anyway, tell us about the early k, if you would.   Kay Hutchinson ** 03:19 Oh my gosh, I'd love to and Michael, what's exciting to me about that, you know, with your show really focusing on diversity, when I look back to my childhood and I think about the various experiences that I had growing up as a biracial child in the 1960s I am half Japanese and half African American, against the backdrop of Malcolm X and at the time Martin Luther King, and all of this different flow of change was happening as I came into the world, and I was born on the island of Honolulu, Hawaii, feeling very much connected to the vibrancy of that space and those islands and that war of the power of the volcanoes, and I found myself just this really hyper sensitive young child where the world came in at me through all of my five senses, to the point where often I was very overwhelmed, but I was really blessed to have parents that understood this child's going to have a lot coming at her in the world, being what the world is at the time, and coming from different two different cultures that I was really well nourished and really was taught by parents who had embraced meditation and mindfulness as a way of really helping me calm my nervous system when I was little. So I really had this beautiful childhood of being able to bounce between different cultures, the US culture, and also living in Asia, but also coming face to face with things like racism face. Things like messages on a very large societal level that I did not belong anywhere, that I didn't fit, and so often I felt that the world outside of the safe space of my immediate family was a world that was very much overwhelming, and felt as if it was not for me, that it was not very nourishing. So very early on, I had to learn how to kind of begin regulating and begin navigating a world that wasn't necessarily set up for someone like myself. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:35 yeah, it's it's interesting when you and you certainly have an interesting combination of parents, half African American and half Japanese, definitely, two different cultures in a lot of ways, but at the same time, they both recognize the whole concept of mindfulness. They recognize the value of meditation and finding a calming center, I gather is what you're saying.   Kay Hutchinson ** 06:00 Absolutely, my father was one of the soldiers that right after he came into the service in the 1950s that got assigned to Japan and was in one of the first all African American military police units. It had never existed before. And so through his journey there, he actually ended up studying a lot of different forms of martial arts, as well as some of the healing arts like acupressure. So a lot of times people say, Okay, you practice Chinese energy medicine. Oh, that must have come from your mother's side of the heritage. But actually, the first exposure to healing and energy came from my dad, because he taught us martial arts, and he taught us actually some of the flows of energy on how to heal the body, because it's that idea that if you spar with a person, you're responsible for having to heal them if you injure them through the sparring. So that was like my first exposure to really learning the system of energy medicine. And then on my mom's side, it's interesting, she grew up with parents that were Buddhist and Taoist in their philosophy as well. So but at a very young age, in her late teens and early 20s, she was very curious about Christianity, and began attending churches that were of a Christian nature, and that's how she ended up meeting my father. And so this beautiful path of spirituality, learning about energy and understanding how to navigate through a world that wasn't necessarily built for me, was really at core of how we moved as a family, and I think that really formed the basis for developing a certain type of sensitivity to the nuances of differences and making those differences into superpowers. And that's really at the heart of what I do, not only as a healer, but and in my early career as a special education teacher, that really was one of the things that allowed me to recognize the value and power of children and help them to optimize their growth and   Michael Hingson ** 08:11 development. So where did you grow up? Where did you live? So   Kay Hutchinson ** 08:15 I lived in both countries. My father was Army, so we would spend some time in the US, primarily Texas, but we also lived part time in California, and then we would bounce back over, over the pond to Okinawa, Japan. So I had a lot of fond memories of both countries growing up.   Michael Hingson ** 08:33 That's, that's pretty cool. And it's, you know, I find that people who come on this podcast, who have had the joy of having the ability to live or having lived in different kinds of environments, do bring some very interesting perspectives on, on each of those countries and just on, on life in general. And they tend to, I think, have a overall better perspective on what life is all about, because they've seen more of it. And if they take the time to really think about life and all the things that they've seen, they come to value all of that a lot more   Kay Hutchinson ** 09:18 Absolutely it is that process of being able to really delve deep into the subtle uniqueness of life through different lenses. And when you travel, and when you get that opportunity to experience cultures directly, and you also have, you know, a heritage that's very rich on an ethnic level, you know, it really does allow the brain to see the world through many different facets. And I think that that really is what's needed in a world where, when we look at what's happening globally, there's rapid, rapid change. So those of us who have that experience of being able to bounce through all of these different experiences and take multiple facets. Because we end up being able to digest and are able to move through those experiences without becoming so overwhelmed, as so many people are experiencing today, with all of the quantum leap changes that are happening, changes happening so rapidly in our world.   Michael Hingson ** 10:16 Oh, we are, and we're we're exhibiting, of course, in this country, with a new president or a new old President, we're seeing a lot of changes, and I think history is going to, at some point, decide whether those changes or the things that that he's bringing about are good or not. And I think it's you can take a lot of different viewpoints on it. Oh, it's bad because he's doing this and he's doing that, and it's good because he's doing this and he's doing that, but I think ultimately, we're going to see, and I'm I think he's made some choices that are interesting, and we and we'll see how it all goes. But I wish that he had had more of a worldview. I think that's the one thing that I see, that he has not had as much of a true worldview as would probably be valuable,   Kay Hutchinson ** 11:11 absolutely, and that's, excuse me, that's really a concern in leadership, right? And how do we support when someone hasn't had that vastness, right? It then comes to us to really bring to the table the perspectives that hopefully will trickle over into influencing and supporting energetically. And here's that thing, because sometimes we can think, Oh, well, you know, the President's way up here, and what can I as an ordinary person, do to help bring more balance to that leadership. Well, I truly believe that energetically, we're all connected, so that when each of us is embracing this more multifaceted perspective, and we're not just embracing it in our brains, but actually living that, integrating that into how we move. We create a energy that ripples out, that absolutely touches every other person on the planet. And why would it not also touch, you know, people in positions of political leadership. So I believe that when we band together in that way, we do create change.   Michael Hingson ** 12:15 Well, I think we all are connected, and I think that is something that most people haven't recognized, and the more they don't and the more they decide they're an entity in of themselves, and there isn't that kind of interconnectionalism, the more it's going to hurt them more than anything else. But hopefully, over time, people will realize that we are all interrelated. Gandhi once said that interdependence is and ought to be as much the ideal of man, I guess, and woman, we should say. But, you know, he was, he was quoting back in the day, much as much the ideal of man as a self sufficiency. And I think that interdependence is all around us, and interdependence is something that we truly do need to recognize. And embrace, because no one really is an island into themselves,   Kay Hutchinson ** 13:08 and that's true, and this is where the challenge is. When we begin to start looking at energy, vampirism and narcissism, we're dealing with individuals who do not have that capacity to really embrace the fact that they are energetically and importantly connected to other people. They're disconnected from that. So how they're moving through life becomes very centered, focused on only their perspectives and their experiences. And that's where it can be really dangerous, because when we're in the midst of people that are moving like that, we may not realize that we're actually losing energy to them. And so it's really important to take a look more than ever, who is in your world? Are you surrounded by people that have an understanding of the value of connecting in with one another and truly having a fair exchange of energy. Or are you amid people that may be pulling energy from you in a one sided way because they have wounds that are preventing them from really being full in their own perspectives and in their own energy fields.   Michael Hingson ** 14:24 Well, and when you mentioned people who don't have the capacity, I wonder if it's true that they don't have the capacity, or they've chosen to reject it.   Kay Hutchinson ** 14:35 Well, I think that's the difference, right there. Michael, when they've chosen to reject it. That's not pathological in terms of the clinical definition of narcissism, that could apply to anyone that has simply made that choice. But part of the clinical definition of narcissism is it is a person who doesn't have the choice they're not capable because of early trauma in their life. During the period of time when they were attaching and beginning energetically to form bonds with other people, as well as psychologically and cognitively, disruption happened or is no longer a choice for them. They're no longer able to say, I want to be connected or not connected. There is a disruption on a trauma level that prevents them from being connected.   Michael Hingson ** 15:21 Is there a cure for that? Though, can people reverse that process?   Kay Hutchinson ** 15:26 So as far as I know, in Searching the Literature and working with colleagues, and I also have background in psychotherapy too, there is not, quote, unquote, a cure for that, but the damage is fairly deep. It's a matter of helping those individuals to manage the facets of their narcissism to minimize the damage. But are they ever disconnected from the intimacy that we have energetically with other human beings that tends to still be pervasive, even with long term therapy, psychotherapy, yeah, well,   Michael Hingson ** 16:03 you, I know, and we'll get to it. Have had some direct exposure and involvement with narcissism, but let's go back a little bit talking about you. Where did you go to college? I assume you did go to college.   Kay Hutchinson ** 16:17 Yeah, absolutely. I went to the University of Texas, at Austin, okay. And then later, for graduate school, I went to the California Institute of integral studies for counseling, psychotherapy, but also longevity Institute for all the energy medicine training. And I loved, I loved that they were the only program at the time in energy medicine, medical Qigong. They had a relationship with the head of the school. Was the head of Stanford's Integrative Medicine Department, and they were doing lots of things with looking at how energy healing impacts cancer and also how it affects the role of fertility. There was a famous Stanford IVF program, and what they were looking at was the idea that when women partook of Qigong and mindfulness techniques, they were able to successfully get pregnant at a higher level than if they did not. So it was a school that really embraced not only the science of energy, but also the spirituality of it as well. How do we develop and grow as beings that are souls in the world   Michael Hingson ** 17:27 and dealing with the practical application of it? Absolutely,   Kay Hutchinson ** 17:30 absolutely. So I often say that it was the place where shamanism met hardcore science and together, and that's kind of a little bit of what people experience, Michael, when they work with me, because I'm one of the few holistic practitioners that says, come in the door and bring me your actual medical data. I want to see the scans. I want to see your blood work data before we ever do an herbal formula, before I ever prescribe a set of medical Qigong resets. I really kind of want to see what we're looking at and what's happening with you on a quantifiable level, so that we can measure changes as we go along and process a few Sure   Michael Hingson ** 18:08 well. So you mentioned earlier Special Education song. What did you do after college?   Kay Hutchinson ** 18:14 So, in college, you know, I was studying cognitive science as well as special education. I was fascinated by how people learn, and so my career began as a special education teacher. The first assignment I had, though as a teacher, was teaching third grade math because I began working for a district mid season, and they didn't have a lot of different openings, and they said, well, Kay, we would love to have you in the school, but the special ed position will not be available till later. Would you come aboard teaching math? Now, little did anyone know, Michael, that I was actually math phobic. I was that kid that when I had to take math and calculus and things in college, had my head in my lap. Oh, I can't do this. This is just not my thing. And so to be asked to teach third grade, it was horrifying to me on one level, but then I said, you know, everything happens for a reason to start my teaching career, and the thing that I'm most fearful of could be a really good learning opportunity for me. What   Michael Hingson ** 19:14 did you learn from that? Oh my gosh, I learned that   Kay Hutchinson ** 19:17 the most important thing is creativity, because I had to say, okay, where, where am I starting? These kids were behind. They were third graders. They were behind in learning multiplication. And so I said, You know what? There's a method to teach multiplication with cubes and blocks and manipulatives that actually leads them to being able to do algebra. So I'm going to be creative and use these different tools to not only teach basic multiplication, but my goal for them is, when they leave me, they will have the basis for being able to do simple algebra problems in third grade. And the fact, Michael, that these kids, when we talk about diversity, inclusion, we. In a community where they were drive by shootings were in a community where other teachers did not believe that just because these children were children of color, that they did not have the same abilities and capabilities and potential to be able to go on to school at Harvard or Yale. It made me even more determined to say, I'm going to teach them a really higher level skill that everybody else will say is beyond their developmental level to prove that these children are just as capable as anybody else. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 20:31 and, and the reality is, they are. They have the capability, and it is something that just has to be encouraged. I know that when I was doing my student teaching. I was getting a master's degree in physics, so I did a little bit with math now and then, needless to say, and I was in the class one day, I was teaching eighth graders. I'm sorry, I was actually teaching high school freshman, but there was an eighth grader in the class, and he asked a question. It wasn't, I don't even remember what the question was, but it wasn't a hard question. But for some reason, I blanked out and didn't know what the answer was. But what I said to him was, I don't know the answer. I should, but I don't. I'm going to look it up and I'll come back tomorrow and tell you what the answer is. Is that okay? And he said, Yeah. When the class was over, my master teacher, who was the football coach, also came up, and he said, that was the most wonderful thing you could do. He said, kids will always know it if you're blowing smoke, if you're honest with them, and if you tell them the truth, you're going to gain a lot more respect. He said, That was the best thing that you could have possibly done with Marty's question. Well, the next day, I came back in with the answer. I went and looked it up, and it was as easy as it should have been, and I should have known. But I came in and I and when the class was all seated, I said, All right, Marty, I got the answer, and he said, so do i Mr. Hinkson? I said, well, then come up here and write it on the board. One of the things that I did not being a good writer, being blind. I just have never learned to have that great of handwriting. I would always have a student write on the board. And everyone competed for that job every day. So that day Marty got to do the job, Kenny came up and described it and said the answer. And I said, that's the same answer I got. And does everybody understand it? But it was so great to be able to interact with him. And it all started with being honest. And I think that's one of the best life lessons I ever learned, not only from being a student teacher, but just in general, that people know it when you're not being dishonest, they can sense it, whether they can articulate it, whether they know it consciously, they'll at least know it subconsciously. If you're not being honest and direct with them, and so it's important if you're going to truly earn trust, to have an honest relationship and and as I, as I put it, don't blow smoke at people.   Kay Hutchinson ** 23:12 That's so true. I mean authenticity as an energy is so very transformative, you know. And I love your story, Michael, because it reminds me too. When I was teaching, you know, I too, was honest with my kids. I just said, you guys feel scared of these problems that we have on our page. Your teacher was scared this morning and had her head in her lap crying like, how am I going to teach this to you? All you know, when they when we can be human with each other. When we are able to really just say what is real and in our hearts, it completely transforms the journey, because suddenly we recognize that we're all in the same space, and then we can lock arms to really move through it together. But if the energy is not even, there's not a fairness there, and part of the fairness is transparency, then it creates a completely different flow. It isn't necessarily transformative, and it can create obstacles and blocks versus being that wonderful thing where your student got to bloom, you got to bloom, and I'm sure the entire class benefited from the authenticity of both of you bouncing off of each other saying, this is the problem that I found, and this is Mike says, here's how I solved it. And together, you guys were able to really get that information across, I'm sure, in a way, that got everybody inspired to think about, how can they come about solving the problems too   Michael Hingson ** 24:35 well, something like 15 years later, we were at the Orange County Fair in July, and this guy with a deep voice comes up to me and he says, Hey, Mr. Hinkson, do you know recognize my voice? Well, there was no way. He says, I'm Marty, the guy from your algebra class 15 years later. And you know it was, it was really cool, yeah, and it was, it was so. To have that opportunity to, you know, to talk with him again. And, you know, we both, of course, had that, that same memory. But it's, it is so true in general, that honesty and connectionalism are so important, it's all about building trust. In my new book, live like a guide dog. We talk a lot about trust as one of the things that you can use to help learn to control fear, and specifically I talk about in the book lessons I've learned from all of my dogs, my guide dogs, and so on. And one of the lessons that we talk about is that dogs may very well, love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally, and you do still have to earn their trust. They may love you, but they won't necessarily trust you until they get to know you. And so with every guide dog, I have to start all over and develop a new relationship and learn their quirks. But the reality is they're learning mind quirks as well, and what we do is we figure out how to interact and work together, and when we are both open to trust, and that's the other part of it, I have to be as much open to trust as the dog, because the way a previous guide dog worked and the things that a previous guide dog did don't necessarily apply with a new dog, and so it's important to really be open to developing that trusting relationship, but it takes a while to develop, but when the relationship develops, it is second to none, and and I wish it were more true with people, but we're always worried about so many things, and we think about what's this person's hidden agenda? We tend not to be open to trust. And the reality is, we can be just as much open to trust as we ever would need to be. That doesn't mean that we're always going to trust, because the other person has to earn our trust too, but we can be open to it absolutely.   Kay Hutchinson ** 27:01 And you know, animals are such an amazing teacher to that process of developing trust. I love what you said that they love unconditionally, but that not necessarily trust unconditionally. To me that is such balance, because I often notice in my work, there's a tendency, especially with empathic women, to over trust, to trust too soon, to not require that others earn that trust. And so I think it's really an important piece to find that balance in being able and being open to trust, but not rushing the process to the point where we lose our boundaries in that and when you interact with animals, you really learn how to do that. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 27:47 why do you think so many women are too eager to trust and do trust too quickly?   Kay Hutchinson ** 27:55 I think in the population of women that I work with in my groups, that they refer to themselves often as women empaths or empathic women. I think some of that can come from the over care taking syndrome that some of them may be exhibiting as a way of working through old wounds, that idea that it's my job to kind of just be this wide open radar and take care of others and be open, and they don't understand that it is absolutely part of self care to regulate that openness, to have a filter and to be able to give that piece of time to really see who people are, because narcissists oftentimes are wearing a facade. May not necessarily see who they are in the early stages of an engagement. So by being open, but still having boundaries, which kind of when your boundaries are respected over time, I think that's where trust really blooms. And by taking that time, then we are able to really make sure that we're in relationship with people where there is a fair exchange of trust, because that's part of the fair energy exchange, as I often say, is trust has to go both ways, and in a narcissistic relationship, it's usually just one way. It's the person you know who's non narcissistic, trusting fully and the narcissist withholding trust. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 29:17 and you think that men are much more not open to the whole concept of trust, than than women? Not   Kay Hutchinson ** 29:29 at all. I think men are beautiful in their heart spaces, just as open too. So I see men in paths exactly in that same space as well, men that are natural givers who want to connect. They can often also get in that space of trusting too soon. So when my practicing encompassed working with both men and women, that would be something that I would often kind of give guidance to in the dating process of Give it time. And allow somebody to earn that beautiful jewel of trust that is your heart, and allow yourself to also be discovered by the other person as someone who's trustworthy. Give it the space, because I've had beautiful men that were clients that absolutely got their hearts trampled, and also got their energy siphoned by energy vampires, just because they jumped in, just so wholeheartedly, so soon, so having that balance being aware of the pacing of a relationship, and then again, going back to animals, because that was part of the thing that I did. Michael straight out of energy school, I worked with animals first and human second. And I think that dance that we do with animals is really can be a framework or a model for how to move with humans too, because animals don't rush it. You know, they're going to take their time and trusting you. They're going to check you out and notice what your Kirks are and notice how you respond to them. It's not something to give right away. And so when you do earn the trust of an animal, whether it's a cat or dog or in my case, I also worked with wild animals, it is really such a treasure, and it's cherished when it happens.   Michael Hingson ** 31:15 Yeah, but then even wild animals are open to trust there. There are a lot of other things that you have to work through, but still, the the the opportunity to develop a trusting relationship is certainly there. Now I think that cats are more cautious than dogs about a lot of things, but they're but they're open to trust. I know that that stitch my cat does trust me, but she is much more cautious and tends to react to noises and other things a lot more than Alamo the guide dog does. So they're there. There are issues, but there's a lot of love there, and there is a lot of trust, and that is as it should be. But again, I've had to earn that trust, which is the real important part about it. Yeah, that's definitely   Kay Hutchinson ** 32:07 and, you know, you speak about, like, the differences of dogs and cats too. There's a difference in the neurological sensitivity, of course, with dogs too, it depends on the breed. You know, like, for example, chihuahuas can be very neurologically sensitive, so they react to many things, versus, say, like Labradors or other larger breeds of dogs, shepherds and so forth, they tend to have a more steady neurological response to the world. So they make wonderful emotional support and other helper roles in our lives. But cats, they tend to, across the board, be pretty high strung neurologically, which means that's why they would be a little bit more skittish about why   Michael Hingson ** 32:47 they're cats. Yeah, absolutely, it works. Well, how long? How long did you teach?   Kay Hutchinson ** 32:55 Well, I taught in public school. I think it was three years. I'm still a teacher. I never I just left the forum from a public school into I became a writer for textbook publishers. So I created Teacher Guides. There was a lot of teaching in that. And then I also ran the only medical Qigong professional certification certification program that is a one on one apprenticeship program, and I ran that program up until the pandemic, from 2008 or nine until the pandemic, before I slowly shifted into just this really super niche of working with women on the journey of recovering from narcissistic abuse, and really putting my full energy into that, I still get calls for people who want to certify with me, and so I'm I'm still thinking about reopening the school, but it's been such a pleasure going down this road and journey of developing virtual journeys for women online and watching them bloom and seeing the transformation. So I always say that I'm ever the teacher. I never really left the profession. Everything that I do involves education and really helping people to optimize the way they learn as souls and as whole beings in the world   Michael Hingson ** 34:17 well, and I think in reality, and I wish more people understood it. But I think we're all teachers, and I know one of the things that I learned when I first was put in a position where I had to start selling professionally, I took a Dale Carnegie sales course, and one of the things that they talked about in that course was sales people. The best sales people are counselors, they guide, they teach, because you'll get a better understanding of your prospects and your customers, but that's what you really should be doing. And again, there's a whole level of honesty that goes with that. But the reality is, I think that all of us teach. I know a lot of. Blind People say I don't I'm blind. I am the way I am. I don't want to be a teacher. I don't want to have to educate people. Well, the reality is, we all do that in one way or another. We're all teaching someone, or bunches of someone's from time to time. And the reality is, teaching is so fun,   Kay Hutchinson ** 35:21 it is, and I love that you said that, because we're always teaching people how to engage ourselves just on that level alone, or engage with ourselves. Yes, absolutely. And when we know that and we bring joyousness to the process, right, it can be so transformative, because when we're enjoying that process, we're going to go into those uncomfortable areas, right that may be challenging or difficult, and often engaging with other people, you come up with new facets and perspectives that you otherwise would not have. So I, I love, I love the dance of learning and also in sharing too.   Michael Hingson ** 36:06 My wife was a teacher for 10 years, and always loved it when she she did do special ed and so on. She was in a wheelchair her whole life, so she was sort of bent that way, but she loved teaching third grade. She thought that third grade was the best, because when you start to get older than that, kids get more set in their ways, and when they're younger than that, they're they're just not there. Yet. She loved third grade, so I'm glad you started with third grade math.   Kay Hutchinson ** 36:35 Third grade was really sweet. I went from there to early childhood so, and then later I was tutoring at the university level, I had an opportunity to work as a tutor to actually doctoral foreign students who needed help with writing skills and things like that. So I really have enjoyed that full spectrum, just as I enjoy working with clients that come from vast differences in their backgrounds, and taking the journey into to learning more about holistic ways and moving so a lot of fun. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 37:09 it is, you know, and I think life in general is a lot of fun if we would just approach things the right way and not let everything upset us, we we have a much better life in our own world,   Kay Hutchinson ** 37:21 definitely, absolutely. Well, you,   Michael Hingson ** 37:25 you've talked a lot about this whole idea of narcissism and so on, and I know you've had involvement in your life with that. You want to talk about some of that and tell us how you really got into really doing a lot with it, and what motivates you and so on. Or how much of that do you want to talk about? Oh,   Kay Hutchinson ** 37:42 definitely. Well, you know, I would have to go all the way back to, you know, experiences with racism that I experienced as a narcissism. I'm not saying that every person who has racist thoughts or beliefs or or patterns are narcissists, but many narcissists are racist, and so I think the early exposure to what I would call someone that is an energy vampire bent on manipulating or creating a flow that isn't a fair exchange of energy happened to me at a very young age. So I gained a lot of insight into how do you move through that? So it made sense that when I was beginning my career as an energy healer, as a practitioner, and I started noticing the different physical and emotional issues people would come in the door with, they'd come in with, say, like autoimmune issues, thyroid issues, cancer and different things like that. But when we began to really look at the root of all of those conditions, we began to realize that there was a pattern of having been in some sort of prolonged engagement with another person, where there was not a fair energy exchange. And that's when I began to realize, oh, all of my clients have had experiences with narcissism and of having had their energy siphoned in a way that was not beneficial for the entire body, mind and soul, and so in creating these resets for clients for nearly, I think it was about 15 years I was into that career. I never realized, because I'd never encountered it directly in a personal relationship. What it was like to be in a relationship with a covert narcissist, and I fell in love with a person who was very, very clever as far as really hiding those aspects of his personality. And I've come to understand that the reason that I walked that journey was so that I could have first hand lived experience. I knew what overt narcissism was about, but I had never really experienced the covert variety that hidden, that more subtle type. And by being in this marriage and relationship with a person that was exactly that, it gave me a lot of insight. To the subtle ways that we lose energy to people, and what the impact is on that physical level. For me, it left my immunity completely tanked, and I was having reoccurring shingles all over my face. I was having high anxiety, which was not a part of my emotional walk. Previously, I was also very fatigued. I had resolved many years prior to that severe fibromyalgia, and suddenly that came out of remission, and I was in constant pain every day. So you know, in seeing how dramatically my own health changed, it also changed the way that I was showing up on a business level, how available I was on an energy level, to really serve clients. And it also showed up in terms of my spiritual path, where I slowly began to get disconnected from source and not rely on that as my critical way of moving through life, where previously I have so it was a just a journey of really, truly recognizing what it feels like across every level imaginable to get decimated by the person that You love because they are wounded and are narcissistic.   Michael Hingson ** 41:22 What finally happened that made you realize what was occurring and caused you to decide to deal with the whole issue.   Kay Hutchinson ** 41:31 Well, you know, it wasn't just one thing Michael, because if he was a subtle narcissist, my understandings of what was happening came about gradually. But the thing that really stood out in my mind, that made me say, You know what, I absolutely need to get out of this relationship was when I went to caretake an aunt that had stage five stomach cancer, and I had previously was in the role of caretaking his mom, when she had metastatic blood level cancer. It was a form of leukemia, and also his aunt, who had a form of bone cancer. So when his family members were ill, I was there. I dropped everything, not only just as a healer, but as a family member, as someone who loved these Dear ladies, was by their sides and really helped them to transition. But when it came time for me to be at the side of my relative, my husband was completely lacking in empathy, and I'd spend the entire day with her, just helping her to quell nausea, get more comfortable, feel more peaceful. I completely had not eaten the whole day because my whole attention was on her and also on my father. Her brother, wanted to make sure that my dad was okay in being with her, because he was also approaching soon the final days of his life. He had a lot of weakness going on and things. And I returned home, and I was just exhausted, and I said, Honey, let's go out for dinner, and let's go out and do something kind of fun, because that's what I am, and I give a lot on that heavy level, I like to shift over to something light. And I was met with, I don't want to go anywhere. Why do you always want to go out to dinner, and he just started kind of yelling at me, and I realized, oh, wow, just even on a pure nourishment level, I need food because I haven't eaten all day. This is somehow becoming a challenge. And I ended up going out to dinner by myself at a time when I was really super vulnerable about ready to lose my last living aunt in the States, and thinking, what am I doing in a relationship where merely asking to be fed, not even emotionally, is a challenge? And I said, Ah, he can't even literally feed me. And I knew there was no fixing that. Even though we had gone through counseling, it's like, no, no, this is just not going to continue. I have to leave, right? So that was a critical moment in my life of just and that's what I would say to everybody in the audience. Ask yourself, are you being felt fed well? Are you being well nourished by the person that you're in that relationship with? Because narcissists are not capable of nourishing   Michael Hingson ** 44:29 you. Yeah. So what happened? I mean, you made you, you realize what was occurring. What did you do? So   Kay Hutchinson ** 44:35 at that point, we had been in counseling, so I got on the phone with our counselor, and I said, I really need your safe space the next time we come in, because I need to have a conversation about divorcing, and I really need to make sure that I'm moving through this safely and with the proper support around me. And that's really, really important, because if your audience. Are in relationships with narcissists who have never been abusive, they need to understand that there's a high likelihood of them becoming physically abusive when they decide to leave. Mm, hmm. And so it's really important to make sure that that conversation is happening in a safe space and that there's enough support around to keep violence from escalating, even if you've never seen that person in that more physically abusive space, it needs to be considered.   Michael Hingson ** 45:33 So you, you talk to your counselor about that, and then you, you, I assume, had a session where you, you, you dealt with some of those issues, absolutely,   Kay Hutchinson ** 45:44 with the safety of of the counselor there, we were able to map out a strategy. But Silly me, Michael, I thought, well, you know, we have an agreement that we need to go our separate ways. We're two adults. We can do this peacefully. It's not complicated. We lived in the state of Texas. It's not hard to do. And so we said we'll just go to a mediator, and everything will be fine. They'll do up the paperwork, legally, we'll sign we'll go our different ways. Wish each other well, take what we each learn from this and move on with our lives. So it seemed a simple thing, but at the very last moment when we were scheduled to see the mediator, mediator attorney gets a call from a lawyer that I didn't know he even had saying, oh my, my client can't come into this mediation without me being present, because he's represented. And it was a bulldog attorney that was known for just rolling over the other person. And I went, ah, and so I got dragged to nearly a year and a half legal battle that really didn't need to be there, but I was very blessed in connecting with an attorney who specialized in helping people divorce from narcissist, and she was able to say to me, Kay, I know you have important healing to do for yourself, but also for the clients that you serve, let me take this over and you go, do you, and I'll just ting you whenever you need to sign something. And she just completely took it over for me so that I could move on with my life and decide, you know, what did I want to create in the new phase of my life? But not everybody has that ability to kind of really lock arms with attorneys that are highly skilled in dealing with narcissists, because the narcissist will weaponize the legal system if they're allowed to do that, and it can drive up costs. It can be exhausting on many different levels. So it's really important, if you can't afford to have an attorney that has that experience, there are many blogs and many places where you can connect to get that support, even if you're working with an attorney who is less experienced, right? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 47:55 but eventually you you were able to to deal with it, and I'm sure that it was incredibly traumatic. How long ago did all this occur?   Kay Hutchinson ** 48:06 Oh, this was occurring. 2018 2019 Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 48:10 so it's not been all that been six years. Yeah, six years,   Kay Hutchinson ** 48:15 absolutely. And you know, I often say that when you're going through an experience, after having been around someone that second guessed your reality, that we will tend to second guess our own reality too. And so one of the things I think that really helped me on a mindset level, was continuing to ask myself, well, what do I really feel? What do I really think? Exactly   Michael Hingson ** 48:40 right, exactly right. Yeah,   Kay Hutchinson ** 48:43 and reconnecting with that because I had been separated or disconnected from things that were really vital and important to me, because he had said that they were not important, or perhaps I was overreacting or being too sensitive that I began to discount those things within myself. So it's really this journey of really allowing myself to truly come back into valuing all of the things that were really important to me   Michael Hingson ** 49:10 to you. Yes, what you know narcissism is an interesting subject. What is maybe one thing that so not Well, let me go back. Narcissism certainly deals a lot with emotional issues, and there can be physical issues and so on. But what's maybe the one thing that you've seen in your work that most people wouldn't associate with a narcissistic person or narcissistic behavior,   Kay Hutchinson ** 49:41 I think the one thing that people don't really put enough of a spotlight on is that they are energy vampires. They create an energetic disruption across the five areas of ourselves that are absolutely critical for our physical health. For. For our emotional stability and our soul growth. So we're talking body, mind and soul disruption. You know, often times the talk is on the psychological or the emotional disruptions, or if there's a physical abuse component, it might be on that level. But it's really very rare that we are really associating that idea of energy, vampirism, of energy, of being a predator on an energetic level, with narcissists and so that is really core. Because until we start to heal the energetic damage that has occurred, we end up staying in a state of struggling for years with emotions that may be all over the place. I see felt it in myself. I see it in my clients, anxiety, depression, that feeling of being on an emotion, emotional roller coaster, and then all of the physical health issues that go along with it, whether someone experienced physical abuse or not, and then that soul disconnect. You know, energetically, we have to have, I often say, Energy Tanks. We need to have all five of our energy tanks full in order to have a relationship with source that is evolving that allows us to transform and elevate ourselves on that spiritual level. And so if we're damaged across our five Energy Tanks, we will find it difficult to really connect in with the power that is higher than ourselves. Tell me a little more   Michael Hingson ** 51:27 about this concept of the five Energy Tanks, if you would. Absolutely   Kay Hutchinson ** 51:31 that's my own wording, but really it's the language of Chinese energy medicine that's over 2000 years old, built on the idea of the five elements, whether you're an acupuncturist, an acupressurist, whether you are a martial artist, everything flows along the five elements, in terms of Chinese energy, medicine and the five elements are a system that helps to explain the relationship between our emotions, the different states of our emotions, our physical selves, and the way that we grow in souls. So I often say, you know that there's five tanks. John Gray made that comparison back I think it was in the 80s when he wrote about the different tanks that people need to have filled in their lives, like relationship tanks and the self care tank and all of these different things. It's kind of similar to that idea, but each one of these areas has a very critical role in our development. So like, say, the water element, this is essence, and then DNA level. So often times when we've been in traumatic situations, we may start to see some DNA level disruptions, and often that will appear as cellular abnormalities. Cancer would be a very good example of that, that when we're under immense stress, on a trauma level, the water element, which rules our DNA, on an element level becomes disrupted. So I see that a lot in my practice, where women have metastatic breast cancer and other forms of cancer as a result of the long term chronic stress of being in a narcissistic relationship, or their nervous systems, like my nervous system was completely damaged and I was hyper vigilant all the time. Had insomnia, had difficulty processing information. My natural dyslexia and learning disabilities that I came into the world with became exacerbated when I was in that narcissistic relationship. That's the wood energy tank that rules our nervous systems. So there's a take for each aspect of ourselves that gets impacted by the experience of being in a relationship where the energy exchange is not mutual and fair.   Michael Hingson ** 53:50 When you're talking about this whole concept of energy vampires and and the whole issue of having to face or deal with a narcissist. One of the things that seems to me happens is that your ability to have creative thinking and to be creative in your thinking goes down, and the result is that you, you you're again, you're you're sucked into something that you really shouldn't be sucked into, but you've lost some of the clearer thinking that you would normally have. How do you deal with that, and how do you get that back absolutely   Kay Hutchinson ** 54:34 but when we start to look again at the elements and how that shows up for creativity, our metal element has to do with our ability to feel safe and shielded. We can't be creative and stretch into areas that are unknown if we're not feeling safe. So beginning to do resets, where we begin to visualize the shielding around ourselves being restored, can be very helpful to begin to settle that. Sense of, oh, I'm not safe. And so there's specific breath work and energy resets that we do to really help to get that foundation of safety before we even begin to restore other aspects that affect creativity. The next thing that we have to do, Michael is really, once we're feeling safe, we need to be able to center ourselves, because if our thoughts are scattered all over the place, our energy is all over the place, it's hard to get centered, to bring the focus that is also a part of being creative. So the earth element is what allows us to begin to ground and calm ourselves, begin to focus and collect all of these different thoughts that we may be having and feeling so that we can harness them in a creative way to go forward. Similarly, we have to calm our nervous system so that our brains are able to create the rhythms on a brain wave frequency level that is conducive to creativity again, if our brain waves, if we were to look at an EEG right before hitting a moment of creativity, there might be a lot of bouncing activity going on, and it's only when that activity begins to settle and calm that we then are able to implement and bring forth something that is creative. So being able to regulate that becomes very important, as well as getting into the space of reconnecting with a fire element, which is joy. Because I often say creativity is just the expression of joy, right when we are in that joyous state, it's amazing how many different ways our brains can move to come up with something that is unusual, innovative out of the box. And so the restoration of the fire element, take passion, joy, all of that feeds in to the creative cycle. And then last on that water element, that essence level, right? Creativity comes from a deep well that we have as humans. When we're able to tap into that, we not only tap into a level of creativity that is not only unique to us as individuals, but we tap into the collective of the human creativity and consciousness, and so that allows us to ignite what we're doing in many creative ways. And this is why, as women heal these areas. Michael, they go out and do incredible things. They're able to go out and start new businesses. They start new careers at the age of 50 in their passion areas that they never thought that they would have done. They're able to take trips and go and pursue things that once they were fearful of, but now they are excited to open up themselves, up to trying new things in new ways. And so, you know, the restoration of creativity is very much a part of core of recovering from narcissistic abuse, because that's the one area that most people don't think about too going back to your earlier question, that truly gets impacted when we go through a narcissistic relationship, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 58:13 well, you have obviously been through a whole lot. What allowed you, or how were you able to keep I guess, what we would call an unstoppable mindset, through all of the things that that you went through, what, what drove you, if you will, to be able to succeed. I   Kay Hutchinson ** 58:33 think it's exactly what we've been talking about, having the practices that allowed me to refuel those five takes allow the highest level of energy to kind of flow through my brain, to keep that mindset in that positive area, to keep me motivated and passionate when you're working energetically, to restore yourself the mind comes along. It's not the thing you know. A lot of people say, Well, you got to change your mindset first, and I believe there's value in that. But guess what? When you change your energy first, there is no possibility of the mind flowing into negative spaces to hold you back, because your energy is creating this vibration that then fuels the thoughts that keeps you moving, and that's really the life that I've led. And when I find in moments that I may be falling into a place that is challenged on that mental thought level, I do my energetic practices, and boom, immediately, there's a shift from either a sad state to a state of feeling resilient, from a fearful state to being brave and courageous, to say, Hey, I just jump into this deep end of the pool because that's what I'm afraid of, and that's what I need to do, and trusting going back to trust that there's going to be tremendous growth and benefit. So. The more it's not that hard,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:01 no. But the other part of it is, the more of that that you do, the more you do the introspection, the more you analyze yourself, you think about what we're talking about here, the more that you actually go through the process, in a sense, the more you do, the easier it becomes, or the more efficient you are at doing it. And the result of that is that you become better at it, and so you're able to gain that control. It's it. The whole issue of resilience is is something to practice, but, but it is something that you have to work at I made a video recently where I talked about emergency preparedness, and I said most all of us don't prepare for emergencies, because what we don't do is we don't prepare our minds. Oh, we can create a plan so that there's a fire, we can grab a go bag or whatever. But how do we really prepare our minds? And that is something that we need to do a lot more of than we do today.   Kay Hutchinson ** 1:01:03 Absolutely. And the idea, Michael, that it doesn't take like long stretches of meditation, people have that myth in their minds to prepare yourself and be mindful when there are circumstances unfolding that maybe crisis by taking bite sized moments, I teach five minute resets to reset the brain and reset the mind, and you do enough of those over time, then when crisis hits, you have a whole well of cultivation to draw from and that that really ends up carrying you through whatever that crisis is. And I love that it's not enough just to prepare our minds cognitively for things, we must prepare ourselves from that deeper space energetically, so that when we're in the middle of things, we're not pulled so far off of our center that we forget that beautiful plan that we made,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:57 right, exactly right. And the reality is, it all does work together. Well, what's the one thing? Maybe that would surprise people if they knew it about you? Oh, gosh, how's that for a good question.   Kay Hutchinson ** 1:02:14 I think the one thing that that most people don't realize about me is that I am a martial artist, because most people think of me as just that healer that brings that comfort in and that level of soothing that I'm known for, and most people don't realize that there's a really strong warrior inside of K and I think we need to be able to embrace the warrior within ourselves and marry that to our peaceful, meditative selves. That the joining of both of them, I think, is really what makes me one of the strongest beings on this planet,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:55 and that is as good as it gets. So have you written any books? So   Kay Hutchinson ** 1:03:02 my book, the five elements healing, a practical guide for reclaiming your essential power, is currently being reworked. So you will not find it on Amazon at this time, but watch for it in a few months, because we're completely redoing that. And then also, I've contributed to redesign your nine to five advice and strategies from 50 of the world's most ambitious business owners and entrepreneurs. It was compiled by Bridget McGowan, and that one you can find on Amazon, and I was so blessed to create the chapter on how to create a soul based business, one that really allows you to develop what Michael and I are talking about, the unstoppable mindset as a critical way of moving through what you put out into the world. As a business owner,   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:51 well, I definitely want to hear about the new book when it nor the reworked book when it comes out. So you have to let us know. Oh, absolutely. How do people reach out and get in touch with you, if they'd like to to learn from you, use your services and so on. How does that work?   Kay Hutchinson ** 1:04:07 Absolutely on your show notes, people can get in touch with me through the website that's listed in the link, and they can find out about the latest healing journeys, which I'm so excited Michael, because we have a live, free healing session coming up on February the ninth, at noon, Central Standard Time. I do these regularly to allow people that opportunity to begin to experience healing, the five Energy Tanks that narcissist destroying through a soothing distance healing to see if they are ready to take other journeys with me. So that's probably the best way, is to visit the website. And I know it's right here   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:48 on your show. It is in the notes, but go ahead and say the website, if you would absolutely   Kay Hutchinson ** 1:04:52 and the website is a, I K I healing.com Easy to remember, A, I K I healing.com   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:00 Um,

I have had the pleasure of conversing with many people on Unstoppable Mindset who clearly are unstoppable by any standard. However, few measure up to the standard set by our guest this time, Katrin J. Yuan. Katrin grew up in Switzerland where, at an early age, she developed a deep curiosity for technology and, in fact, life in general. Katrin has a Masters degree in Business Administration and studies in IT and finance.   As you will see by reading her biography, Katrin speaks six languages. She also has accomplished many feats in the business world including being the founder and CEO of the Swiss Future Institute.   Our conversation ranges far and wide with many insights from Katrin about how we all should live life and learn to be better than we are. For example, I asked her questions such as “what is the worst piece of advice you ever have received?”. Answer, “stay as you are, don't grow”. There are several more such questions we discuss. I think you will find our conversation satisfying and well worth your time.   As a final note, this episode is being released around the same time Katrin's latest book is being published. I am anxious to hear what you think about our conversation and Katrin's new book.       About the Guest:   Katrin J. Yuan Boardmember | CEO Swiss Future Institute | Chair AI Future Council Katrin J. Yuan is an award-winning executive with a background in technology and transformation. With a Master of Business Administration and studies in IT and finance, Katrin is fluent in six languages. She is a six-time Board Member, Chair of the AI Future Council, lectures at three universities, and serves as a Jury Member for ETH and Digital Shapers. With a background of leading eight divisions in the top management, Katrin is an influential executive, investor, speaker and a "Young Global Leader" at the St. Gallen Symposium. Her expertise extends to AI, future megatrends, enforcing AI and a diverse data-driven approach.  Ways to connect Katrin:   Swiss Future Institute https://www.linkedin.com/company/swiss-future-institute LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/katrin-j-yuan/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/katrinjyuan/ Youtube https://www.youtube.com/@katrinjyuan   Speaker Topics: AI Future Tech Trends | Boards | NextGen Languages: EN | DE | FR | Mandarin | Shanghainese | Turkish | Latinum Menu card overview https://www.futureinstitute.ch   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 00:15 Hi. I'm Michael Hinkson, Chief vision Officer for accessibe and the author of the number one New York Times best selling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast. As we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion, unacceptance and our resistance to change, we will discover the idea that no matter the situation or the people we encounter, our own fears and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The Unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessibe. THAT'S A, C, C, E, S, S, I, capital, B, E, visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities and to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025 glad you dropped by. We're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone. Welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. Our podcast has been doing really well. We've been having a lot of fun with it ever since August of 2021 and I really thank you all for listening and for being part of our family. And as I always tell people, if you know of anyone who you think ought to be a guest, let us know, and we'll get to that later on. Today, our guest is from Switzerland, Katrin J Yuan. And Katrin is a person who, among other things, is the CEO of the Swiss future Institute, and I'm going to leave it to her to tell us about that when we get to it. She is a executive. She's an executive with a with a pretty deep background, and again, I don't want to give anything away. I want her to be able to talk about all that, so we'll get to it. But Katrin, I want to thank you for being here and for finding us and for coming on unstoppable mindset.   Katrin J Yuan ** 02:20 Warm Welcome Michael and Dear audience, thank you so much for having me on unstoppable mindset. I'm excited to be here with you a bit about myself.   Michael Hingson ** 02:32 Yes, please, you and growing up and all all the scandalous things you that you don't want anyone to know. No, go ahead. We we're here to hear what you have to say.   Katrin J Yuan ** 02:43 My cultural background is, I'm looking Asian, grown up in Europe and Germany, and then later for my studies in Switzerland, in the French part of Switzerland. And now I'm being in here in Zurich. My background is Mba, it finance. I started with a corporate then in tech consulting. I was heading eight departments in my lab. Last corporate position there of head it head data. Now to keep it simple and short, I consider myself as an edutainer, community builder and a connector, connecting the dots between data, tech and people. I do it on a strategic level as a six time board member, and I do it on an operational level for the Swiss future Institute for four universities, being a lecturer and sharing knowledge fun and connecting with people in various ways.   Michael Hingson ** 03:44 Well, what? What got you started down the road of being very deeply involved with tech? I mean, I assume that that wasn't a decision that just happened overnight, that growing up, something must have led you to decide that you wanted to go that way.   Katrin J Yuan ** 03:58 It's a mixture curiosity, excitement, I want to know, and that started with me as a kid, how things work, what's the functionality? And I like to test do things differently and do it myself before reading how it should be done. What's the way it should be done.   Michael Hingson ** 04:21 So, yeah, yeah, I find reading is is a very helpful thing. Reading instruction manuals and all that is very helpful. But at the same time, there isn't necessarily all the information that a curious mind wants, so I appreciate what you're saying.   Katrin J Yuan ** 04:36 Yeah, totally. There are so many more things. Once you start, it's like one layer after the other. I like to take the layers, lip by layer, to go to a core, and I'm I don't avoid asking questions, because I really like to understand how things work.   Michael Hingson ** 04:55 Yeah, yeah. It's a lot more fun. And. And hopefully you get answers. I think a lot of times, people who are very technically involved in one thing or another, when you ask them questions, all too often, they assume, well, this person doesn't have the technical expertise that I do, so I don't want to give a very complicated answer, and that's all lovely, except that it doesn't answer the question that people like you, and frankly I have, which is, how do things work? Why do they work? Much less? Where do we take them from here? Right?   Katrin J Yuan ** 05:31 Absolutely, and breaking down complexity rather simplifying things, and tell us in an easy way you would maybe tell kids, your neighbors and non tech persons, and at the end of the day, it's the question, What's in for you? What is this for? And what's the value and how you can apply it in your everyday life? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 05:57 I grew up, of course, being blind, and encountered a lot of people who were and are curious about blind people. The problem is I usually have an assumption also, that if you're blind, you can't do the same things that sighted people can do, and that's usually the biggest barrier that I find we have to break through, that I have to break through, because, in reality, blindness isn't the issue, it's people's perceptions. And so that's why I mentioned the whole idea that people often underrate people who ask a lot of questions, and the result is that that it takes a while to get them comfortable enough to understand we really do want to know when we really do want you to give us good technical information that we can process and move forward with   Katrin J Yuan ** 06:47 exactly normally, in a room full of board members, managers, you call it, you name it, CEOs, investors, usually someone or even the majority, is very thankful that finally somebody asks also, dare to ask the simple questions to find a solution. And it's not only the what, but I find it interesting also the how you solve it, and to see and do things in a different way, from a different, diverse perspective. This is very valuable for those seeing and for those seeing in a different way or not seeing and solving it in your own very unique way, and   Michael Hingson ** 07:33 and that's part of the real issue, of course, is that looking at things from different points of view is always so valuable, isn't it? Absolutely,   Katrin J Yuan ** 07:42 this is why I also go for diversity in tech leadership boards. Yeah, because for me, I like to say it's no charity case, but business case,   Michael Hingson ** 07:57 yeah. Well, so you, you've, in a sense, always been interested in tech, and that I can appreciate, and that makes a lot of sense, because that's where a lot of growth and a lot of things are happening. What? So you went to school, you went to college, you got a master's degree, right?   Katrin J Yuan ** 08:17 Yes, correct.   Michael Hingson ** 08:20 And so what was then your first job that you ended up having in the tech world? I   Katrin J Yuan ** 08:27 was in the IT ICT for Vodafone in a country this last station was with Northern Cyprus. For me, very exciting. Yeah, to jump in different roles, also in different areas, seeing the world sponsored by a large company here in Europe. And that was very exciting for me to jump into white, into it and learn quickly. I wanted to have this knowledge accelerated and very pragmatic to see many countries, cultures, and also diverse people in many, many means, from language to culture to age to many, many different backgrounds.   Michael Hingson ** 09:09 So from a technology standpoint, how is Vodafone doing today? I know you've moved on from that, but you know, how is it? How is it doing today? Or is it I haven't I've heard of Vodafone, but I haven't kept up with it. That   Katrin J Yuan ** 09:22 was my very first chapter. So yes, indeed, I moved on, staying in the tech sector, but now I am completely here in Switzerland for another chapter,   Michael Hingson ** 09:35 and Vodafone is still a very sizable and ongoing company. It   Katrin J Yuan ** 09:39 is not in Switzerland, but yes, still in Europe, with headquarter, UK, in Germany and so on. Definitely. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 09:47 I'm, I'm familiar with it. And I was thinking Germany, although I hadn't thought about the UK, but that makes, makes some sense. So you, you obviously worked to. Learn a lot and absorb a lot of information. And I like the things that that you're talking about. I think people who are really curious, and who work at being curious aren't just curious about one thing and you talked about, you're curious about the technology and all the things that you could learn, but you are also very interested in the cultures, and I think that that is and the whole environment, and I think that is so important to be able to do what, what kinds of things, if you if you will, did you find interesting about the different cultures, or what kind of commonalities Did you find across different cultures? Because you, you had the experience to to be able to be involved with several so that must have been a pretty fascinating journey.   Katrin J Yuan ** 10:45 Yeah, CEO of a Swiss future Institute, and as university lecturer of four universities in Germany, as well as in Switzerland, mostly about AI data analytics. And also as board member, I have several demanding roles started already in young years. So one of the questions I hear often is, how did you make it, and how is the combination? And here my answer is, start early discipline focus. I'm highly self motivated curiosity, as mentioned earlier in the combination, and I did not expect success to come early. I expected to endure pain, hard work and to go forward and a mixture of discipline, hard work, step by step, and also to overcome challenges.   Michael Hingson ** 11:42 Did you find it to be a challenge with any of the cultures that you worked within, to to be able to be curious and to be able to move forward? Or were you pretty much welcomed across the board?   Katrin J Yuan ** 11:57 It's a mixture. It started with the obvious, the language. So when I was, for instance, on Northern Cyprus, that's the Turkish speaking part, not the Greek part, which is in the EU I accepted the opportunity given by the company at that time to learn Turkish. That was amazing for me. Yeah, as I felt like, if I'm the guest, the least I can do is adapt and giving, showing my respect and openness towards a new culture. And for me, culture starts with a language. With language you reach not only the people, but you really understand as there are so many, and those of you who speak more than one language, you might have find it especially comparing different expressions emotions. Typical expressions in different languages is not only translating, it's really understanding those people. Yeah, and that for me, definitely super exciting. It was a challenge, but a very welcome one, embracing that challenge, and for me, it was like, Hey, let's do an experiment. Being an adult, learning a complete new language, not like English, German, French, and both usually relatively close to each other, so related ones, but a completely new such as Turkish. So nobody spoke Turkish in my friend's neighborhood, closer family as we are, we are not. But I thought that, hey, let's simply start. And I started by learning eight, eight hours per week, so really intense, including the Saturday. So it was only doable that way, to give it a serious try to bridge and be open towards different cultures.   Michael Hingson ** 13:53 Well, the other part about it is, in a sense, it sounds like you adopted the premise or the idea that you didn't really have a choice because you lived there, or at least, that's a great way to motivate and so you you spent the time to learn the language. Did you become pretty fluent in Turkish? Then I   Katrin J Yuan ** 14:13 was there like five months, the first three months, it was rather a doing pain and hard work without having any success. So I didn't, didn't get it. I didn't understand anything, though I had every week the eight hours of Turkish, and it took three months, and that's super interesting for me to perceive like I love experiments, and I love experimenting, also with myself included, that is, it's not, it seems to be not linear, but rather jumping. So you have all the investments in the first where you don't see any immediate effect. Well, after the first three months, there was a jump. Um, and I remember clearly the first moment where I got it, where I understood something, and later on learning intensely, even understood some sort of jokes and etc. And there the meetings were all in Turkish. So it really helped to adapt to that one and get what they say,   Michael Hingson ** 15:20 so until you got to the point where you could sort of understand the language, how did, how did you function? Did you have somebody who interpreted or how did that work?   Katrin J Yuan ** 15:30 Well, they speak English as well, and of course, they adapted to me, such as to the other experts being there as well.   Michael Hingson ** 15:39 Yeah. Did? Did you find, though, that once you started having some effective communication in the language that that they liked that and that that made you more accepted? They   Katrin J Yuan ** 15:52 were surprised, because at that time, I was the only one from from the experts manager sent there and really accepted the whole education package for like, okay, it's free, it's education. Let's definitely accept it and give it a serious try, having the eight hours per week. So several were quite surprised that I did it and that I'm interested in learning a new language as a as an adult, where you could have said, No, that's, that's enough. Let's, let's all stay in our usual, the simple, the simplest way, which is, let's keep it and do it all in English, what we already can speak.   Michael Hingson ** 16:38 But they had to feel more at home when you started speaking their language a little bit. I remember in college, I took a year of Japanese. It just seemed fascinating, and I like to listen to short wave. I'm a ham radio operator, so I oftentimes would tune across stations, and I would find radio Japan and listen to broadcasts, and then I took a year, and I've been to Japan twice as a speaker, talking about the World Trade Center and so on. And although I didn't become in any way fluent with the language, I was able to pick up enough words, especially after having been there for a few days, that I could at least know was what's going on. So I appreciate exactly what you're saying. It makes it a whole lot more fun when people do relate to you. Which is, which is so cool. So, you know, I think that's that's a good thing. Where did you go after Cyprus?   Katrin J Yuan ** 17:34 I went back to Switzerland. Ah, familiar language, yeah, from the French and to the German speaking part in Switzerland, also with French, it's more or less the same. I learned a large part, also per University, and frankly, per TV. Watching television, if you first started, didn't get any of those jokes, yeah, I felt quite stupid. And then one day, you really break the wall, and then it's going all the way up, and you simply get it. You live it. You are widened, and you understand the culture and those people, and they will feel that you are bracing it, that you are not only polite or only there for a temporary of time, and then you're you're gone. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 18:22 you you demonstrate that you are really interested in them and curious about them, as I said, and that tends to definitely make you more relatable and make you more appreciated by the places where you are. So I'd like to go ahead and continue in, you know, obviously learning about you and so on. And I know we talked a little bit about other places where you've been and so on, but you've got, you've got a lot that you have done. So you work a lot with CEOs. You work a lot with investors and board members, and a lot of these people have a lot of different kinds of personalities. So what is your perception of people? What was your perception of working with all those people? And how do you deal with all of that going forward? Because everybody's got their own thoughts,   Katrin J Yuan ** 19:21 indeed, and in that context, what is normal? How do you perceive and how are you perceived by others? That was a question which raised my curiosity. Yeah, by time, it was not clear from the beginning, and for me, I found my answer in what is normal. It's super relative for only what you perceive and know. Got to know taught by your parents as a kid. And for me, looking looking Asian, yeah, looking different, yeah, as. A woman young, you're looking different. And that combination in Switzerland, it's yeah, it weighs some questions, and got me reflecting upon that question, yes, and this all how you deal and see and apply that difference and make that difference to be a value for yourself and for others. You bring   Michael Hingson ** 20:25 up an interesting point, though. You talk about what is normal, and so what is normal? How do you deal with that?   Katrin J Yuan ** 20:33 Normal is what you think is normal. There's no real normal, the so called norms. Does it fit to you, or you will make them fit to you, and you are unique in that setup you know, like what is normal considering beauty standards, it is what you use to know, based on culture, based on your direct environment, by based by your family, what you see is what you get, yeah. And based on some scientific stuff, like relatively high symmetric in in your face, but not too much asymmetric, yeah, just the right mixture, yeah. And so I learned to define, instead of being defined all the time, to define myself what is normal to me, to me, and to be very aware that the normal is quite relative my perception. Did   Michael Hingson ** 21:33 you find that there were times that you had to sort of change your view of what was normal because of circumstances, does that make sense?   Katrin J Yuan ** 21:43 Yeah, totally, and I respect it so much. Also, with your fantastic story yourself, Michael, where I can only say, Chapo, how, how you make your way all the way up. And it's, it's more than respectful. I have you have my admiration for that one for me, it was definitely food traveling, seeing myself, not so much as a small kid, I perceived like, Hey, we are all normal. Yeah, there was no difference as a small kid. But latest for me, when you got a bit older as a kid, between, in between kid and becoming adult, also from the environment, raising questions of how you appear, whether you appear differently from kids and so on. Yeah, the question was brought to me, so I had to deal with it in the one or other way. And I learned it's, it is interesting if you are finding yourself. It's not a point that you know in black, white, okay, that's me, but it's rather walking the whole path with all the stones, Hicks and up and downs, becoming you in all its essence and normal it was defines you, and I like to challenge myself wherever, and all these bias everyone has naturally, it makes us humans. That's the way that I, at least challenge myself to open that quick few seconds box again, after the very first impression, which is built unconsciously, and and, and some, some good moments and valuable relationships appeared not from the first moment, but because I challenge it, and even if we didn't like, for example, each other from the first moment, but then we gave it another opportunity, and even friendships were built with a second and third glance. And this is why I invite you to think about your own normal and to find and define yourself, not letting it be a standard defined by others.   Michael Hingson ** 24:07 I have ever since September 11, I always hear people saying and I read and I reacted to it internally. We got to get back to normal. People hate getting out of their comfort zone oftentimes, and that's, in a sense, so very frustrating. But I kept hearing people say, after September 11, we got to get back to normal. And I finally realized that the reason that I didn't like that statement was, normal will never be the same again. We can't get back to normal because normal is going to be different, and if we try to get back to where we were, then the same thing is going to happen again. So we do need to analyze, investigate, explore and recognize when it's need to move on and find, if you will, for the moment, at least a new normal.   Katrin J Yuan ** 24:58 Absolutely, I'm. With you. What's normal for you? Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 25:04 yeah, what's normal for me isn't normal for you. I think what's normal for me today isn't what it used to be. So for me today, normal is I do get to travel and speak, but when I'm home, I have a dog and a cat. Normal change for me a couple of years ago when my wife passed away. So it was a matter of shifting and recognizing that I needed to shift, that the mindset couldn't be the same as it was pre November 12 of 2022 and so it is important to be able to adapt and move on. So I guess for me, normal, in one sense, is be open to change.   Katrin J Yuan ** 25:50 That's beautifully said. Be open to change.   Michael Hingson ** 25:55 Yeah, I think it's really important that we shouldn't get so locked in to something that we miss potential opportunities, that that change, or that adapting to different environments will bring us   Katrin J Yuan ** 26:10 totally and you yourself, give yourself all the opportunities you have to evolve over time you will not be Exactly and that's good the way it is the same person, yeah? Because environment change, all the factors change, and we humans are highly adaptive, yeah, this is underestimated by ourselves many times. Yeah, but we are, and we make the best out of the situation, and especially with regard to hard moments where really, really, really hard, and nobody likes them, while being in that moment, but looking back and being overcoming it afterwards looking back, I like to say, when do you really grow? It's in the hard times when you grow this is where you endure pain, but you'll be become better, bigger, more resilient afterwards, right?   Michael Hingson ** 27:13 Very, very much. So Well, in your case, growing up, working, being in all the different environments that that you have. Have you ever had an unexpected moment, a hard moment that you had to deal with? And what was that? And how did you? How did you deal with it?   Katrin J Yuan ** 27:29 Sure, just sharing one earlier moment. I had an accident. I was on my way to dancing course and all chilly fun made myself pretty on the day, thinking only on superficial, beautiful moments, partying and so on. And then it crashed on the road, and in a matter of seconds, life can be over. So I woke up in the hospital and the intensive care, that unit, where you only find the hard cases, was, yeah, were really not beautiful to look at. Yeah, I find myself. And I was like, that was definitely a very hard lessons I learned in early years. So I had to relearn everything, and had to look two weeks long at a white wall with an ugly picture on it, and I had plenty plenty of time to think about myself and the world and what, what the heck I should do with the remaining time, and also my perception of normal, of wishes, of expectations, of different perspectives, and my my expectation on life. Yeah. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 what was an ugly picture? Did you ever come to appreciate the picture?   Katrin J Yuan ** 28:59 It was still ugly after two weeks, just checking.   Michael Hingson ** 29:05 So though you, you chose not to let that become part of your normal, which is fine. I hear you well, you, but you, you adapted. And you, you move forward from that, and obviously you you learned more about yourself, which is really so cool that you chose to use that as a learning experience. And all too often, people tend not to do that. Again, we don't do a lot of self analysis, and tend to try to move on from those things. But, but you did which is, which is admirable by any standard. Well, one of the things that I'm curious about is that you have a fairly good social media followings, and I'm sure there are a lot of people who would ask this, what would you advise for people. Who want to build their brand. What did you learn along the way, and what would you advise people to do if they want to build their own brand and and grow? I've   Katrin J Yuan ** 30:07 over 60,000 views, which is not bad for a non celebrity and a simple officer, worker, academic worker, here in Switzerland, and I like to invite people to think, imagine you were a product. What are you standing for? And don't try to cover your weaknesses. It's a unique you as a combination of all of your science, I like to speak about the 360 degree you and starting, and I know statistically that a bit more women are a bit concerned about, hey, how much should I really give and and get over visibility, and is it still in a professional way, and I don't want to waste My time and so on. Somebody told me, and I find this idea very simple and good people talk about you either way. Also, if you leave a room, either you let it the way, in a passive way, so accepting it, or you decide one day, and this is what I did, actively influence it. So I like to, rather if I may have a choice, actively influence and have some take on my life, my decisions, my normal the doings, the happenings and the starts with a perception in our world. Allow me it is very simple. What you see is what you get. Yeah, so the visibility, if you can use it, especially here, now with all the social media channels, from LinkedIn to Insta to YouTube, what you have in place, use it systematically for your business, not as a I don't want to waste my time, and you don't need to open up to everything your private life. If you want to keep that, that's all good. You can just open up enough to build up your brand for business. Yeah, and for me, it's really, really going, definitely, we monetize and open up for business, and so that our clients in Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Germany and Austria, and the dark region we call it, find us in, yeah, and thankful for that   Michael Hingson ** 32:37 interesting and I like something that that you say, which is, you don't need to open up your private lives, we get too nosy, and we get too many people who put too many pieces of information about their private lives, and unfortunately, that's just not a productive thing to do, Although so many people do it in this country now. We're, we're seeing a number of athletes whose homes are being broken into. And you can trace the reason that it's even possible back to a lot of social media. They're, they're saying they're not going to be there, or in some cases, they can't necessarily avoid it. Doesn't need to be social media when you've got sports figures who are playing in games and all that, but we focus too much on private lives rather than real substance. And unfortunately, too many people, also, who are celebrities, want to talk about their private lives. And I, you know, I don't tend to think that is overly productive, but everybody has their own choices to make, right? So   Katrin J Yuan ** 33:45 everybody has their own choices to make. Yeah, I recommend, if you like, stay with them consistently so you feel comfortable. How much you open the door is starting ultimately with you. I like to say in that context, you are ultimately responsible for all the things you do, but also with all the things you don't do. Yeah, and that's totally fine, as long as it's it's very much and that it's something you will feel that's, that's about you, yeah, and social media and visibility, and the business side, the professional side of using your whether Employer Branding, your personal branding, all the stuff, this is controlled by you, how much you give. Of course, you can sense how much, depending on how much you give, how much will come back. And if you don't feel like posting all the time, also with 40 degree fever out of a bat. Don't do it. It might be not sensible in your case, and not giving you back the outcome, the impact, the real consequence and effects it has. Yes, totally.   Michael Hingson ** 34:55 Well, social media hasn't been with us all that long, and I think we're still. So really learning how to best be involved with social media. And of course, that's an individual choice that everyone has to make. But what Facebook is only 20 years old, for example. And so we're going to be learning about this, and we're going to be learning about the impact of social media for a long time to come, I suspect,   Katrin J Yuan ** 35:20 absolutely and nowadays, fusion. Everything merged on the next level with AI, the perception what you get is what you see really fake news is only the beginning in text, in visual speaking of pictures and in videos, which is nothing else than a row of visual pictures in moving so our generation and the next and the next, from alpha to Gen Z, X, Y over and bridging generations, we will have to learn how to deal with it responsibly, both being potentially one of the actors in So, being a creator, creating your own content, and on the other side, accepting seeing, resonating, interacting with other content. What is real, what is fake? How do you deal with it, critically and responsibly for business, for society, yeah? Because whenever you do something, somebody else will see it. And that's that sense every one of us is a role model. So your behavior is not ultimately only what you say, but also what you do. Yeah, measure me and what I do, not what I say, and yeah, and others will see you and observe and that will have an effect, if you want or not. And therefore I am for a responsible way, behaving, reflecting and carry that on, spreading that information. Yeah. It all starts with you, I   Michael Hingson ** 37:01 believe is all too important to recognize it's due and judged by what I do, not by what I say. I think that is so important and one of the biggest lessons that we can learn from social media or anything. And it's nothing new. It's just that now it is such more a visible kind of lesson that we need to learn, because it's all about actions, and they do speak a lot louder than words, whether we like to think so or not. Yeah,   Katrin J Yuan ** 37:30 totally. And you said it, Michael, it's nothing new. Yeah, it's not reinvented, but, yeah, it's all transparent, too much information flooded by all channels, all these voices and people, experts are not commenting, resonating, multiplied, copied, bringing to other dimensions, and it's so easy, yeah, the real ones and the other ones. Yeah, so it's upon you to deal with it responsibly, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 38:00 well, you have been associated with a number of boards. You've dealt with lots of board members. You're the CEO of a company and so on. So I'm curious to get your thoughts on the whole concept of, how do we work to make boards and board members more inclusive and more diverse? Or how do we open boards up to perhaps different things that they haven't experienced before?   Katrin J Yuan ** 38:31 That's a very good one, which means a lot to me personally. I like to say it's not a charity case, but a fact matters, numbers, business case so simple. That is, if you have, let's say, 10 people, high personalities in one room, a decision is very, very easily made. If you all think, look, behave the same, with the same skills, background, experiences and cultural wise, definitely, you will come to one decision quickly. But is this ultimately the best decision of a company and for your future? And have you shared all these thoughts from a different perspective, from a different angle. This implies a certain way, also with efforts with some time are not only easy peasy, but once you challenge yourself, you really grow. You really grow and come to an ultimately better decision, worthwhile, a more valuable perspective, yeah, and thinking of something you have never fought yourself, but another fraction does, and ultimately, the other voice is not only one minority speaking of an easy example of one to nine makes 10. Yeah, but scientifically, we speak here about the 33% and more, so more than three four people in a room, it would make sense to really have a strong voice here, and not only the one exceptional voice, but really a discussion among diverse peers reaching to the ultimate outcome in the best interest of a company.   Michael Hingson ** 40:26 How do we get people to adopt that kind of mindset and expand boards though to make that happen? Because all too often, people are locked into their own way. Well, we want board members and we want people who think as we do, and we don't want to really change, which is getting back to what we talked about before, with normal   Katrin J Yuan ** 40:45 I'm definitely with you, Michael, and if we had one short sentence answer on that one, I would be the first to raise the hand give me that solution. It's very hard to force externally. It's it's, ultimately, the best way is if you really come to that and you you get convinced yourself by your own experience, by seeing observing, by being open minded enough to learn from others. Yeah, that is not with age, with success, with power, with hierarchy, you name it, with title, with salary, package that you find one day, okay, I learned enough. I'm successful enough, I'm rich enough, I can afford and do what I what I wish, means, and I I'm not interested, consciously or unconsciously, and having another, maybe challenging other view which threatens or challenges myself, or which makes it a little bit more uncomfortable, but for the ultimate sake of getting to a better result. So there's a science dimension, there's a psychological cultural dimension, and definitely that's an individual one, but I learned the greatest people, men and women, like the really successful ones, they are quite on the steep learning curve, wherever they stand. And the really good ones, they want to become even better. Now this is for knowledge, learning never ends, and this is also for openness, looking the ball is wound from the 360 degree perspective. And this is ultimately also, as I said at the beginning, the business case to know from science. Okay, if I go alone, I might get the point quite quickly. Or if everybody is a little copy of you, it makes it so easy, isn't it, but if you really challenge, go through this is where you bring yourself and the others and the whole team, and again, the value of your company and listed company, your innovation, your value of the ultimate company, much, much further than it was yesterday, and this is where maybe, how much can we afford, looking at business as competition, looking at the latest technology, all these and also over culture and over borders, yeah, how much can we afford to stay the way we Are because we were that successful and maybe also privileged the last 20 years. I doubt so. So this is, again, plenty of real facts, numbers, arguments. Look at the statistics. It's a clear business case where we go and the smartest one goes first and state an example by yourself. Go through it and then you experience it yourself, the value out of difference and diverse and true means by living it and allowing it in your own circle.   Michael Hingson ** 43:54 The question that sort of comes to mind, and it's hard one to really answer, I think, but if you're on a board with a very strong leader or very strong persons, and you see that they're not necessarily willing to deal with diversity or real inclusion. How do you help them understand the value of doing that and becoming more diverse or becoming more inclusive in the way they think, by   Katrin J Yuan ** 44:21 raising questions in a polite, respectful way, you can do a lot. Everything you do is better than doing nothing, simply accepting on and in a passive way. I think everything else is definitely worth to try, fail, try, do better and try in a row. Repetition is also something which is psychologically therefore we have all these repetition jingles and advertising to some, to some extent, very useful, effective. So if you again, may hear it, not maybe only from one person, but for more than the 33% and. And you might hear it from your best buddy, you might hear it from peers, but you one day come and accept at least question it yourself, yeah, raising that question and you really want to get better, as we said at the beginning. Michael beautifully said, accept change or change. What is normal, yeah. And we are highly adaptive, again, as humans. So allow yourself to grow. There are two ways, either or if, if you should ever meet somebody who is rather not that open to it. So there are two ways and which will show by time. Yeah. But one is, your people only like to change when change becomes necessary, versus where an event happens, yeah, a very hard event, and where you will have face tremendous consequences, so you must have a change, yeah, and it's painful, and the others before, out of being convinced, touching the question before, how much can we afford to stay the way we are like forever, just because it has been like this in the Last 20 years? And I rather invite change doesn't happen overnight. Yes, that's true, but continues and little ones rather the hard cut at the end and and rather from yourself, interior and and intrinsically motivated, rather than being forced only by outside. That's way better. And smart people, yeah, are open, listening, learning, and therefore, do some effort. Make some effort yourself. Normally, it pays back 10 times.   Michael Hingson ** 46:51 You know, one of the best quotes I've ever heard that I really like, and I think it really ties in here, comes from the person who was our 35th president, who's now passed away, Jimmy Carter. He once said we must adjust to changing times while holding to unwavering principles. And my point in bringing that up is that change doesn't need to be that you have to sacrifice Basic Life Principle. I think so all too often, we don't necessarily learn some of those life principles as well as we should, but change is a good thing, and we do need to adjust to change any times, and it doesn't mean that we have to sacrifice the basics of life that we've grown up with and that we Experience   Katrin J Yuan ** 47:37 beautifully said exactly, I totally agree and to every new year, the new year resolution, stop smoking, becoming more sportive, all of sudden, all these long lists of changes and wishes, potential achievement and potential failures. Scientifically, I'm a bit nerdy. From the person, yeah, for me, no, it is positive. Is it shows that, rather than going for the big, hard cut change, use all these small steps and allow yourself to make these small steps towards change and habits, this is also shown and proven. Habits do not come overnight. They are not accepted. Whether, yeah, it's getting early bird, becoming all of a sudden Early Bird, because, yeah, you want to belong to that 5am breakfast club or something, whatever it is, yeah, make a combination over time in small steps, and reward yourself also, if you make a small step towards change. Now that's that's where magic happens. So you keep it over 234, months, and there become a good habit over time. But   Michael Hingson ** 48:49 also keep in mind why you want to make the change. That is what you don't change just to change. You change because there's a reason, and it's important to understand whatever it is the reason for wanting to change   Katrin J Yuan ** 49:04 having a goal and visualize it as much as you can. It's a strong one. And ultimately, do it for yourself, not for your partner, not because of somebody else, expecting do it for yourself. Yeah, becoming healthier working with a certain amount of discipline towards your marathon, or whatever it is in your life situation, yeah, definitely. Because if you don't have a goal, don't expect to ever learn that would be a pure accident, and that's rather impossible, yeah. But having a goal, you dramatically enhance your probability to reaching that one step by step.   Michael Hingson ** 49:45 Yep, absolutely. So you know what? Let's take a minute and play a game, just for fun. If you were a song, which one would it be?   Katrin J Yuan ** 49:55 A classic one, up to a certain moment, I will be. Surprise and a mixture, rather to the more modern, maybe new, classic one and a Big Bang to the end,   Michael Hingson ** 50:11 you have a particular one in mind. As   Katrin J Yuan ** 50:13 I love playing piano myself. I have two pianos at home, and I like to play from notes, sheets. But also come, come make my own compositions. I have one in mind, which is rather my own composition, starting from the classic, from a known one, such as Chopin, but going into a rather the individual one the end, yeah, it's a mixture.   Michael Hingson ** 50:40 Well, you've you've obviously been around a lot and so on. What's the worst advice you ever received? Stay   Katrin J Yuan ** 50:47 the way you are and come back in five years. You're not ready yet. Well, I simply didn't accept it. I think you're ready when once you feel ready, and that's not you're too young for it, or you are not ready because these things are lacking. And get the first reference, and get the first ones who trust yourself, and start trusting yourself going the first part, whether it's the first leadership role, but it's the first investment role, whether it's a first board membership role, whether it's becoming you, following your dreams, making your own company become reality all these I am convinced, at the end of the day, you are the ultimate producer of your life. So what are you waiting for? For me, it was the accident. Wake wake up. Call for me, where I fought like, Okay, two weeks staring at that ugly wall with that picture that made me somehow aware of my time. So I somehow subjectively really accelerate. I always think like, Hey, I don't have enough time. Let's make and really use the time given. And so, yeah, it's all about you define yourself, rather than letting others to define I   Michael Hingson ** 52:06 think that's really the operative part. Define yourself. You're the only one who can really do that, and you're the only one who can know how well you're doing it. So I think you're absolutely right, and   Katrin J Yuan ** 52:18 nobody knows you better. Nobody should know you better than yourself, because you spend all your time you know all these ugly, weak and really strong, really beautiful sides of yourself. You spend all the time, your whole life, if you like it or not, with you. So some people, however passive or with regard to responsibility, yeah, I would like to, but somehow I'm waiting somebody else who pushes me, who will give me before me that ball in my way, who tell me or who give me this one recommendation I was waiting a long time for. No, it should be you. You know yourself the best way start making use out of it. Yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 52:59 you should really work to make sure you know yourself better than other people do. It's it makes your life a whole lot better. If you can do that. Let me ask this, if you could go back in time, what would you do?   Katrin J Yuan ** 53:09 I started quite early, and I've had some thoughts about skills, about what I could do, what I what I'm good at, and what I wish. Yeah, all that, and at some point I didn't dare to speak out. I accepted a lot, and I was actually quite silent for a long time. And in private life, I'm rather introvert. When they see me on stage as a speaker, as a lecturer at universities and so on, people tend to think I'm extrovert, but in private life, I'm quite introvert, looking back, maybe starting even earlier in a stronger pace than a faster pace, being more aware and not covering and myself in silence, in good moments, whether it's a meeting or in a lesson, if you know a Good answer, speak out. If you know a good question, speak out. Dare to speak out for yourself and for others. This took me some time to find my voice, many years, but now I somehow finally found it for myself, and I dare to speak out for myself and for others to make a little bit of change and to make dare to make things differently. So it has ultimately your individual impact, your outcome, your own responsible line. So this, this is something I would have wished for me and also for others. Believe in yourself, trust in yourself, speak out earlier, whenever you see and there are plenty opportunities. I'd like to finish on that one. It's like a muscle. It's not born, but rather, you can train it also, but leadership skills, or that entrepreneurial skills or to the skills to deal with difficult situation as you overcame dramatically, wonderfully. My. Yeah, everyone might face over a lifetime, individually with his and hers. Face it, grow with it, become better and share it with others. So you push, pull and get good people on your side. And it's not only you suffering, but the ultimate outcome is so much more than the one moment which was hard. So believe in yourself.   Michael Hingson ** 55:28 What's one thing that you really wish people would see that maybe they don't beauty   Katrin J Yuan ** 55:33 and difference? Yeah, think about it in all its means a bit deeper, and I dearly invite you. It starts with the looks, yeah, with the automatic, subconsciously quickly done, judging others. It's so easy. And yes, we know it's only human, but knowing about yourself, it's about freedom, and with freedom comes responsibility, and also knowing about your limitations and knowing about your weak spots helps you really a lot to grow over time. Knowing you is not only knowing you how to do the small talk when the sunny weather everybody can be a leader or do something in a good means, yeah. It's very, very easy, but I talk about what stormy weather when it comes to really tough situations, when it comes to darkness and different means, then observe yourself. How do you behave? And many, even adults, they don't know, they can't say, or they totally freak out or give up, or some, some, some ways, challenge yourself. Where are your limits? Have you never tried your limits before? Because you didn't swim out into the sea and see how much you can really swim well, better try out. You will find out and get to know yourself in all your dimension. This is definitely something, the beauty and difference accepting. And this is not only finger pointing to others. It starts with you. Yeah, because you are different. I bet you are in some ways, if it's not looking Yeah, being too old, too young, too man, too woman, too beautiful, too ugly, yeah, too fat, too skinny, and all these are, it's maybe your language, your culture, your skills, your different background, maybe you're never the new one, and maybe you are different in all beautiful ways. It is possible to be different. So allowing difference, seeing even inviting it to your circle, is something of tremendous value once you open the door and you nurture it over time, I wish more people could see it and use it on positive impact in this world.   Michael Hingson ** 58:04 I have been a firm believer pretty much my whole life, that life's an adventure, and we have to embrace it. We have to live it to the fullest, and when we do, we're much better for it. One of the things that it does for us is it makes us, by the definition of this podcast, more unstoppable. What makes you unstoppable?   Katrin J Yuan ** 58:26 Life is an adventure. I completely agree with that sentence. I like to say, for me, it's also one day I saw it's like one big game, either you don't play, or I play and want to win it, war, whereas I think there can be several who be the winners, not only one. It's not a one man, one woman show, yeah, it's the team, it's the community, it's the effort. What makes you unstoppable? It starts for me, definitely with your mind, unstoppable mind in every means, not with your body, because the body, the physics is limited, yeah, but our mind, spirit, brain, and what you feel here in your heart and what you hear have in your head is this, ultimately, you, changing, evolving Over time, becoming you, and this makes me unstoppable, knowing and I'm on the way. It's not a point, but rather a long, long path from our phone, knowing me, the skills, knowing what you have overcome, Michael, over time, everything. Why shouldn't you achieve and do and get, ultimately, to your next goal, because you, looking back, have achieved so much already becoming stronger and stronger. If we go back to the simplified game, if it was a video game, you get to the next level. Not only getting to the next level, you're becoming more stronger. Yeah, this is becoming you and. Yeah, I believe that you are the ultimate producer. It starts in knowing, trusting, believing in you, speaking out and helping, not only yourself, but ultimately pulling, pushing others. As a community, we share many things which, when shared, becomes multiplied much, much more worth, such as visibility, value, knowledge, trust and community and connections, all these wonderful things different than a cake, if you share, it becomes more so I don't see you are alone. I see you're not an island. You're not alone. Come with us. Follow and grow with us on the journey becoming, ultimately you and you will be unstoppable   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:49 your way. And I think that's a great way to end this conversation, because I think that you cited it and said it so well and eloquently that reality is, people can be more unstoppable, but they they need to take the responsibility to make that happen, and if they do, they'll be better for it. So Katrin, I want to thank you again for being here, and I want to thank everyone who listens to this for being with us today. This has been a fun podcast. It's been a great adventure, and I really appreciate having the opportunity to keep Catrin busy for my gosh, over an hour now, and just getting to be bedtime over in Switzerland. So thank you for being here, but for all of you, hope you've enjoyed this. I hope that you will give us a five star review wherever you are listening to this podcast or watching it, and also, if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest, we certainly like you to let us know. Love to get your thoughts about the podcast, feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S i, b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, Katrin, if people want to reach out to you, how would they be able to do that?   Katrin J Yuan ** 1:02:20 LinkedIn, Insta, YouTube, you find me. Google me, what's   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:25 your what's your LinkedIn, ID, your handle on LinkedIn.   Katrin J Yuan ** 1:02:29 Katrin J Yuen, Swiss, future Institute. Opportunities don't happen. We create them. Stay, follow and grow with us. Thank you.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:02:41   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Our guest this time, Dario Valenza, is all that and more. Dario hales from Australia where he grew up and went to high school. He then attended two years of college but then left academia to work on working on designing yachts for, among events, the America's Cup races. Eventually he did return to college to finish his degree. He does tell us that he has a passion for design thinking and designing. As you will discover he has designed yachts, aircraft including innovative drones and even automobiles.   We talk about how his over-arching passion for design thinking also helps him design functioning and successful teams. Dario is a team leader by any standard.   He founded and owns a successful design and implementation company, Carbonix. Much of the work in which he is involved today is around having designed and now manufacturing long-range drones that can stay aloft and travel up to 800 Kilometers before needing refuelling. His products can and are being used for major surveying jobs and other projects that take advantage of the economic enhancements his products bring to the table.   Dario and I discuss leadership and how his design-oriented mindset has helped him be a strong and effective leader. I will leave it to him to describe how he works and how he helps bring out the best in people with whom he works.       About the Guest:   I have a passion for design and design thinking. This is the common thread that has led me to build yachts, planes, and cars - as well as create the teams and company structures to turn visions into reality.   I believe that beautiful design, as well as enabling and inspiring, is inherently valuable. Testing a new design it in the real world, particularly in competition, is a way to interrogate nature and understand the world.   I spent the first decade of my career working on racing yachts as a boatbuilder, designer, construction manager, and campaign manager. My treasured achievements include being part of several America's Cup teams and pioneering full hydrofoiling for World Championship winning boats.   I applied the lessons learned to other fields. This trajectory diversified into aerospace applications including drones.   I work to create products that bring joy by being desirable, aesthetically pleasing, and ergonomically correct, while always adding value through effective and efficient performance. I'm always keen to share my experiences and tackle new challenges with like-minded teams.   Ways to connect Dario:   Main point of contact is LI: https://au.linkedin.com/in/dario-valenza-a7380a23 Carbonix URL: www.carbonix.com.au Personal website: www.dariovalenza.com   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Hi everyone. This is your host, Michael hingson, and you are listening to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today our guest is Dario, if I'm pronouncing that right, Valenza, how do i pronounce it? Oh, good. Oh, good. I can sometimes speak the King's English really well. Dario is a person who has a great passion for design, and he's going to tell us about that. He has been involved in designing many things, from yachts to aircraft to other kinds of things, as well as teams in companies, which I think is very fascinating, that make products and bring things about. So we're going to get to all of that. Daro is in Australia, so it's early in the morning. There for you right now. But welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Yeah, my pleasure. Glad to be here. So what time is it over there right now? About 11am Yeah, and it's little after three here. So, yep, you're 20 hours ahead   Dario Valenza ** 02:27 of us. No, here, it's Saturday, I assume. There it's Friday. It is to the confusion.   Michael Hingson ** 02:33 So, so, as it's always fun to do, can you tell us about the future over the next 20 hours?   02:40 So, so far so good. Yeah, there you are. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:43 thank you for being here and for being a part of unstoppable mindset. Let's start, if you would, by maybe you telling us a little bit about kind of the early Dario, growing up and some of those kinds of things, so that people listening and watching can get to know you a little bit better.   Dario Valenza ** 03:01 Yeah, absolutely. I think the interest in how things worked was there as long as anyone can remember being exposed early on to different mechanical things and from household appliances to looking at trains and busses and cars outside. I think that all piqued my curiosity. But I remember the first time I came across the concept of a sailboat. Something clicked, or something about the way an aerofoil works, the way it can generate motion out of wind, the balance of forces, the structures, the things that all need to work for a sailboat to work. That sort of got me hooked, and then I spent every waking moment I could reading about it, doing research, making models that I'd sail across the pool, getting involved at the local sailing club, and just being hands on. And I think that's really where the passion started. So certainly, there's a general wanting to see how things work, and there's a specific aerodynamics, hydrodynamics, structures, just, I find it endlessly fascinating. And you're always learning, and   Michael Hingson ** 04:10 should always be learning. I think that's one, of course, the real keys is always learning, which some people think they don't do, but and some people try very much not to do, but that's not the way to really progress in the world. So I'm glad that you do that. You've always lived in Australia.   Dario Valenza ** 04:27 No, actually, born in Italy, moved here probably 10 years old, went to high school and uni here.   Michael Hingson ** 04:37 Yeah, you do seem to have a little bit more of an Australian accent than an Italian one?   Dario Valenza ** 04:41 Yeah, I think I was young enough when I moved that I learned the language pretty quickly. I did spend few years in New Zealand and a few years in Europe, so I think my accent is probably a little bit of a hybrid, but mostly Australian. I'd say, do you speak Italian? Yes. Funny, you get rusty at it, though, like when I go back, it probably takes me a few days to get used to speaking it, yeah, but it is in there   Michael Hingson ** 05:08 which, which makes some sense. Well, so you went to high school, and did you go on to college?   Dario Valenza ** 05:15 Did the first couple of years of an engineering degree, dropped out to go and do the America's Cup. Eventually went back and finished it. But really haven't spent more time working than started. Putting it that way, the things I was interested in, particularly the the advent of carbon fiber in in racing yachts, hadn't found its way into any curriculum yet. It was it was happening on the frontier in that environment. And so my judgment was you could learn more by doing it and by going to uni. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:49 yeah, on the one hand, with school, to a large degree, it's theory, and putting it into practice is something that always brings you closer to it, which which makes sense. Well, so you, when you went to your first America's Cup, what did you were you just an observer? Were you involved in designing a yacht, or what?   Dario Valenza ** 06:10 I was a boat builder. I was hands on, on the manufacturing, and that was the way in that was the the opportunity I had to actually be part of a team and prove myself over the course of the campaign, I obviously showed an interest in design, and I became more de facto part of the design team. But I really always like to sit at that interface between the designing and the building, so that there's a practical element to yes, there's a theory, yes, there's a design, there's a bunch of analysis you can do having that practical mindset of, is it easy to build? Is it practical? Is it possible to then tune it and modify it and improve it? And that actually led me to a lot of the logistical challenges of, how do you plan a build? How do you allocate time towards the things that make the biggest difference towards performance. So the journey was really from hands on boat builder to sort of logistics, to design   Michael Hingson ** 07:08 well, and design is clearly been your passion overall. So that makes some sense. When did you do your first America's cut?   Dario Valenza ** 07:17 So I was involved in the 2000 event in Auckland, which was the first time the Kiwis defended after winning in 95 right? Then I did 2003 also in Auckland, 2007 in Valencia. And then there was a bit of a hiatus after Valencia, because of the deed of gift match. And I was involved in a couple of teams as that transition happened. And eventually 2012 I peeled off to start my own business.   Michael Hingson ** 07:44 So let's see the New Zealand won in 2000 right?   Dario Valenza ** 07:48 They defended successfully in 2000 so they they won in 95 in San Diego against Dennis Connor, and it took them five years to basically set up a defense. So from 95 to 2000 and then they won, and they rolled straight into 2003 they lost in 2003   Michael Hingson ** 08:05 that was to Italy. Was it to the Swiss or to the Swiss? Right? Okay,   Dario Valenza ** 08:11 even though the core of the sailing team was the former New Zealand team, the basically flag of allegiance, but yeah, the lingua team. Now, Were you successful challenger, which is amazing. Were you   Michael Hingson ** 08:25 living in New Zealand in 2003   Dario Valenza ** 08:29 Yes, yeah. So when you become involved in a team, basically the whole operation camps out at a at a base in the lead up to the event. At the time, the yacht still had to be constructed in country. So in 2003 for example, I was with a Swedish team. I actually spent a little bit of time in Sweden during the construction of the yacht, and then traveled with a yacht to New Zealand, and stayed there for the duration. I asked,   Michael Hingson ** 08:58 because I went to New Zealand in May of 2003 the Royal New Zealand Foundation for the Blind, or of the blind, asked me to come and do some speaking. It was, of course, after September 11, and I was pretty visible, so I went down and actually helped them raise something like close to $300,000 by giving a bunch of speeches around New Zealand, but I remember listening to the radio and hearing all the irate people because New Zealand lost. The government didn't put enough money into it, and we shouldn't have lost it was pretty fascinating to to to hear all of that.   Dario Valenza ** 09:38 There was a campaign called the loyal campaign, just basically trying to reprimand the Kiwi sailors that affected at the end of the day. It's a professional sport. There were nationality rules, but it was really residency, so as long as they signed on with the Swiss team within a certain time. Period, it was like two years or something, and basically set up a residence in Switzerland, and they were eligible to compete. And I think there's been a history of that since the New Zealand government having Lisa supported in New Zealand, because it's certainly an investment in the national industry and tourism, everything that comes with it. And I think they did walk that back, particularly for the last event. And the latest result of that is the Kiwis defended in Spain last time around, which is again, unusual.   Michael Hingson ** 10:35 Well, it was, it was fascinating to watch the races, and we watched them was before I went to New Zealand. But that's why my wife and I watched, because we knew I was going there, and it was, it was all being defended in New Zealand. And of course, they were using sails, and the yachts were just going at normal sailboat type speeds. But I know then later, so much redesign took place, and the boats started traveling significantly faster, right?   Dario Valenza ** 11:08 Yeah, absolutely, there's been a change in that respect, just on the atmosphere in Auckland again, with my perspective, having, as I said, obsessed over sailing, worked my way up, got involved in campaigns, helped to put sponsors together with skippers, to get funding to build boats, and arriving in Auckland with the prospect of trialing with a team, you walk out of the airport and there's the actual boat that won the copy, 95 was sitting in The car park. There are posters. You can really see, like they called it the city of sales. And as I arrived the round the world race was stopping by in Auckland, so there was a sort of festive atmosphere around that. And you could really see people were getting behind it and getting involved. And it felt, you know, they had parades at the beginning of the event. So it was really special to be there at a time when there was maybe 12 teams. It was a big event. And to your point, they were symmetrical ballasted monohulls. So they were fairly conservative, you know, long, narrow, heavy boats. And the competition was really to eke out a one or 2% gain to have better maneuverability for match racing. And it was really down to that kind of refinement. And what happened after 2007 I mentioned a sort of hiatus, basically, two teams took each other to court, and they went back to what they call a deed of gift matches, which is the default terms that they have to abide by if they can't agree to a mutually agreeable protocol. And that deed of gift match ended up being in multi holes. So there was a catamaran and trimaran, and they were big and fast. And I think then, when the Americans won out of that, they they sort of got seduced by, let's make this about the fastest sailors and the faster boat in the fastest boats. So they went to multi holes. The next evolution was hydrofoiling Multi holes. And then once the boats are out of the water, the drag drops dramatically, and now they can go really fast. They ended up narrowly the Kiwis ended up narrowly losing in San Francisco. The Americans then defended Bermuda. The Kiwis eventually won in Bermuda. And then they in in sort of consultation with the challenge of record. That was Italians. They wanted to go back to monohulls, but they wanted them to be fast monohulls, and so they came up with this concept of a hydrofoiling monohull. So the boats now are certainly the fastest they've ever been, and the nature of the racing has changed, where it's more of a drag race than a sort of tactical match race. But it's still fascinating, because it's all about that last bit of technology, and it's all about resource management. You have so much time, you have so much budget, how do you get to the highest performance within that time that you can access, that the Sailors can get the best out of? So it's all a balance of many variables, and it's certainly tactical and strategic and very fascinating, but   Michael Hingson ** 14:18 hasn't a lot of the the tactics, in a sense, gone out of it, because it's now so much, as you put it, a drag race or a speed race, that a lot of the strategies of outmaneuvering your opponents isn't the same as it used to be.   Dario Valenza ** 14:37 Yeah. So if you imagine, the way you think about it is, it's a multi dimensional space. You've got all sorts of values that you can dial in, and the weighting of the values changes depending on the boat and the racing format and the weather so on a traditional monohull maneuvers are relatively cheap because the boat carries momentum. So when you tack you go. Through the eye of the wind, you lose drive for, you know, a second, three seconds, but your speed doesn't drop that much because a boat's heavy and it just powers along. And so if you have a three degree shift in the direction of the wind, it's worth tacking on that, because you'll then get the advantage of having a better angle. Similarly, if you're interacting with another boat, tacking to get out of their dirty air, or tacking to sit on top of them, is worthwhile, and so you get that the incentive is, I can spend some energy on a maneuver, because I'm going to get a gain when you have boats that are extremely fast, and we're talking three, four times faster than the wind, if the wind direction changes by three degrees, it's almost immaterial. And so it's not worth tacking on it. If you go through the dirty air of another boat, you get through it really quickly. And on the other hand, when you maneuver, you're effectively, you go from flying on the hydro force to gliding. You only have, like, a few boat lengths that you can do that for before the hull touches the water, and then you virtually stop. And so basically, the aim is you minimize maneuvers. You roll with the wind shifts. You roll with your opponent. And hence they've had to put boundaries around the course to force the boats back together, because otherwise I'd go out to a corner, do one tack and then go to the top mark. And so it's a different racing. It's still there are tactics involved, but the trade offs are different, that the cost versus reward of different tactical choices is very different.   Michael Hingson ** 16:31 But the race obviously goes with the newer designs, goes a lot faster, and it isn't hours and many hours of racing as it used to be, is that right?   Dario Valenza ** 16:42 It's also shorter course, so the format is kind of optimized for television, really, for, yeah, broadcast. So you have many short races, and it's it does mean that if you have a big disparity, like if one boat makes a mistake and falls a long way behind, it's over pretty quickly, because it did happen in the past where you get a boat that was outmatched or did something wrong and just spend three hours following the leader with no chance of catching up. So there's certainly a merit to having short, sharp races, but I think it's probably more physical and less cerebral, like, if you look at, yeah, the way the old boats worked, you had 17 people on there providing all the mechanical power, maneuvering, putting spinnakers up and down, dip ball driving, moving their weight around the boat. He had a tactician. They would have conversations about what's happening and react, you know, in a matter of seconds, not in a matter of milliseconds. Now you have eight people on the boat, four of them are just pedaling bikes, basically to put pressure into an accumulator to run the hydraulics. You have a helmsman on each side, and you have a trimmer on each side, and they don't cross the boat, because the boats are so fast that it's actually dangerous to get out of the cockpit. So it's very much more, I guess, closer to sort of Formula One in terms of it, you've got you've got speeds, you've got the reaction times are shorter. Everything happens more quickly, and there's certainly less interaction between the boats. Do you have   Michael Hingson ** 18:19 a preference of whether you like more the old way or the newer way of doing the races and the way the boats are designed.   Dario Valenza ** 18:28 If pressed, I would say I'd prefer the old way. But that's probably the bias, because I was involved more back then. Yeah. I think it's equally fascinating. And that sort of brings me to Yeah. So even you know, we'll get into how it applies to business and things like that, and it's the same problem, just with different variables. So my view with the cup was, whatever the rules are, you've got to try and win within them. And so they will change, the boat will change, the venue will change, the weather will change, budget limitations, all these things play into this multi variant problem, and your job is to balance all those variables to get the best   Michael Hingson ** 19:10 outcome right in the rules. Exactly.   Dario Valenza ** 19:12 Yeah. I mean, the teams do have a say. So I was, for example, in the committee that designed the rule for the catamarans that went to San Francisco, having said that what we thought we were encouraging by the rules, and what actually happened was nothing to do with each other, because once you set the rules, then the fascinating thing is how people interpret them, and they'll interpret them in ways that you can't possibly imagine, hence unintended consequences. But yeah, you have a say, but ultimately they are what they are, and the point of competing is to do well within those rules. Having said that, if they get to the point where you're just not interested anymore, then don't compete. But it is what it is. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 19:54 So how long did you do yacht design and so on, dealing. With the cup,   Dario Valenza ** 20:02 probably 15 years altogether, was 12 or so in the actual America's Cup, and a few years before that, working up to it, doing various different projects, and that's sort of in a professional capacity, getting paid before that as a passion. It's pretty much my whole settling my teens, maybe a few years before that as well.   Michael Hingson ** 20:21 So what did you do after that?   20:25 I started my own business.   Michael Hingson ** 20:26 There you go. Well, tell us about the business and what you what you started with.   Dario Valenza ** 20:36 Yeah. So it the the aim was what we call long range aerial data capture. So fancy way of saying drones with a long range that can carry out surveys effectively. So whether it's taking photographs, video, LIDAR scans or combinations thereof, the sort of underlying motivation was the importance of data. So having come out of the America's Cup and seeing the way you develop is you interrogate what's happening with the boat and the boat and the crew and the conditions, and the more channels of information you have, the more informed decisions you can make about improving now, applying that to real world problems, to things like linear infrastructure, to mining to land management. It seemed like to me there's a gap where if you could have better aerial data, you could make better decisions. And I happened to have a tool in the design and manufacturing processes that came out of the America's Cup that would allow me to create a lightweight airframe that would have that efficiency and be able to give that range. And this was at a time when, you know, people were already starting to think of drones as a solution, though there was a lot of hype around them, but it was really all around the electronics, around multi rotors, around things that you could effectively buy and put up in the air and do a short mission wave and then land. The idea of a long range drone, other than in the military, was pretty much unexplored, and I think largely because to make it work commercially financially, you needed the range you need to be able to cover in the order of hundreds of kilometers in one flight, so that you're not having a ground crew, effectively driving the line relocating from point to point as the surveys carried out. So initially it was fairly conservative in the sense that the main focus was to set up that manufacturing capability. So basically, copy or transfer those process out of the America's Cup into a commercial setting. So making molds, curing carbon, the way you document or the way you go about it, that design process, and I was open to doing custom work to subsidize it, basically. So doing stuff again, for for sailboats, for racing, cars, for architecture, just with that composite manufacturing capability as a way to prove it and refine it. And whatever money was coming out of that was going into developing a drone airframe. And then I was fortunate enough to have a collaboration with a former colleague of mine in the cup who set up a business in Spain doing computational fluid dynamics, and he alerted me to a contract over there for a military surveillance research drone. We, by then, had an airframe that more or less we could demonstrate, and we could show that it was lighter and was more efficient, and then fly further and it had a more stable flying path and all of that. So we won that contract, we supplied that, and then out of that came the commercial offering, and it basically grew from there.   Michael Hingson ** 23:50 But when did you start dealing with the drone design, the airframe and so on,   23:57 probably to 2015   Michael Hingson ** 24:00 Okay, yeah, I think I had started hearing about drones by then, and in fact, I know I had by that time, but yeah, they they were still fairly new. So how far would your drone travel?   Dario Valenza ** 24:16 So we have two versions, the old electric one will do a couple of 100 kilometers, the petro hybrid one will do up to 800 and so we're really squarely in the territory of crude helicopter, smaller, small fixed wing planes like Cessnas, and we're really going into that same way of operating. So we're not so much selling the drone to a utility to do their scans. We are providing the data that comes out of the scan, and we're using the drone as our tool to get that data. And by effectively mirroring the model of the traditional sort of legacy aviation, we can offer, obviously, a lower cost, but also better data. Because we fly lower and slower, so we can get a higher resolution and more accuracy, and there's a obviously carbon footprint reduction, because we're burning about 2% of the fuel, and it's quieter and it's safer and all of that stuff. So it's really doing that close in aerial survey work over large distances the way it's currently being done, but with a better tool,   Michael Hingson ** 25:21 the electric drone, you said, only goes a couple 100 kilometers, is that basically because of battery issues,   Dario Valenza ** 25:27 absolutely, especially power density. So not so much energy density, but power density really how much energy you can store in the battery in terms of mass, and obviously the fact that you're not burning it off, so you're carrying the empty battery around with you. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 25:45 Any interest in, or has there been any exploration of making solar powered drones?   Dario Valenza ** 25:52 We've certainly looked into it, and we've developed relationships with suppliers that are developing specialized, conformal, curvy solar panels that form part of the structure of the wing. There are a couple of considerations. Most prominent is the trade off that you're making. Like if you take add solar panels to a wing, even if they're integrated in the structure, and you minimize the structural weight, they will have a mass. So call it an extra kilo. Yeah. Right now, if I were to take that extra kilo and put it in battery or in fuel, I would be better off, so I'd have more energy by doing that than by having the solar panel   Michael Hingson ** 26:36 dealing on efficiency yet, yeah,   Dario Valenza ** 26:37 yeah. So obviously, on a hot day, when you're flying with the sun directly above, you probably would be better. But over the course of the day, different locations, banking, etc, it's just not there yet. Net, net, particularly considering that there'll be a degradation and there'll be a maintenance that's required as the panels deteriorate and the various connections breakdown, etc. So it's not something you'd rule out. Then the secondary consideration is, when you look at our aircraft, it's fairly skinny, long, skinny wings. When you look at the area from above, there's not a lot of projected area, particularly the wings being thin and very high aspect ratio, you wouldn't really be able to fit that much area right when it comes to and then you've got to remember also that if you're generating while you're flying, your electronics have to be very different, because you have to have some way to manage that power, balance it off against the battery itself. The battery is multi cells, 12 S system, so you then have to balance that charging. So there's some complexity involved. There's a weight penalty, potentially a drag penalty. There is a Net Advantage in a very narrow range of conditions. And overall, we're just not there yet in terms of the advantage. And even if it could extend the range by a few minutes, because we have an aircraft that can fly for eight hours, doesn't really matter, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 28:04 So dealing with an electric drone again, have you ever looked into things like fuel cells as opposed to batteries? Or does it not make we have,   Dario Valenza ** 28:14 and there's a company in France that we've been collaborating with, it's developing a hydrogen fuel cell, yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 28:21 So I was wondering, yeah. And   Dario Valenza ** 28:23 again, this is about, sort of, maybe sounds a bit conservative, but you know, during these lessons from the Americas capitals, talking about being seduced by the latest shiny thing can come at the detriment of achieving what you need to achieve today. So we're very conscious in the business in carbonics, of having this roadmap where there's a lot of nice to haves, there's a lot of capability that we want going forward, and that's everything from the remote one to many operations, detect and avoid fail safes, additional comms, all stuff that will enable us to do what we're doing today, plus x, y, z, but we need to be able to do what we can do what we have to do today. And most of the missions that we're doing, they're over a power line in the middle of nowhere. They're in relatively non congested airspace. The coordination is relatively simple. We have the ability to go beyond visual line of sight. We have the range, so it's really let's use what we have today and put all the other stuff in time and space. As the business grows, the mission grows, the customers get more comfortable, and that's a way to then maintain the advantage. But it's very easy to get sucked into doing cool R and D at the expense of delivering today.   Michael Hingson ** 29:42 Yeah, it's R and D is great, but you still gotta pay the bills. Yeah, so you have worked across several industries. What's kind of the common thread for you, working across and designing in several industries? Yeah. So   Dario Valenza ** 30:00 I think it's a high level problem solving is having an outcome that's very clearly defined and a rule set and a set of constraints. And the challenge is, how do you balance all those elements to deliver the best value? So whether it's, how do you design a boat within a rule to go as fast as possible? How do you develop a drone to fly as long as possible, given a certain time and budget availability? You're always looking at variables that will each have their own pros and cons, and how do you combine them so things like, you know, team size versus burn rate versus how aggressively you go to market, how do you select your missions? How do you decide whether to say yes or no to a customer based on the overall strategy? I see that as you have all these variables that you can tweak, you're trying to get an outcome. How do you balance and weigh them all to get that outcome?   Michael Hingson ** 30:58 Yeah, well, you've I'm sorry, go ahead.   Dario Valenza ** 31:01 I was gonna say, I mean, I have also, like, an interesting motorsport and when you look at a formula, one strategy, same thing, right? Did you carry a fuel load? Do you change tires? Do you optimize your arrow for this? It's a similar type of problem you're saying, I this is my aim. I've got all these variables. How do I set them all in a way that it gives me the best outcome? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 31:23 and in your design and and as you construct and look at what you're doing, you decide exactly what the parameters are, and you know when you're going to change the tires, or, you know when it's time to put in more fuel or whatever. And then, see, you've got to really know the product very well,   Dario Valenza ** 31:42 absolutely. And again, in the case of salvo racing, it's almost exemplary, because the rules are spelled out, and you have, it's a very artificial set of constraints, and you have a race day, you'll have your budget, and obviously you can work to increase that, but the time is what it is. And then in the rules, you actually get to trade off length versus width, versus mass versus sail area. Do I make my boat more powerful so it goes faster in strong winds, or do I make it skinnier so it goes better in light winds? You look at the history of the weather in the venue, and the teams that win are the ones that get all those mostly, right? So it's not necessarily the latest, fastest, more, most extreme solution, it's the one that best balances all these variables. Yeah, you transfer that into business, and it's a similar thing. You've got, you've got funding, you've got burn rate, you've got people, you've got customers, probably more variables, and it's a little bit more fuzzy in some cases. So you need to work harder to nail these things down. And it's a longer term. It's an open ended prospect. It's not I've just got to race on Sunday, then I can have a break for six months. It's you do it today and tomorrow and tomorrow. So it's going to be sustainable. But I the way you think about it in the abstract, it's the same,   Michael Hingson ** 33:00 and you also have to keep evolving as technology grows, as as the industry grows, as demands change, or maybe better than saying as demands change, as you foresee demands changing, you have to be able to keep up with it. And there's a lot to all that. There's a lot of challenge that that someone like you has to really keep up with. It's   Dario Valenza ** 33:23 a balance between leading and listening. So there's a classic Henry Ford line that if I'd asked the customer what he wanted, he would have told me a faster horse. We've fallen into the trap sometimes of talking to a customer, and they're very set about, you know, we want to use this camera to take these this resolution, at this distance, because that's what we use on a helicopter, because that's what used on a multi rotor. And you have to unpack that and say, Hang on, what data do you actually like? Because we have a different payload. We fly in a different way. So let us tell you how we can give you that solution if you tell us what we want, and I think that applies across various sort of aspects of the business. But to your point about the continuous evolution, one of the most fascinating things out of this experience of almost 10 years of sort of pioneering the drone industry is just how much the ecosystem has evolved. So when we started out, the naive assumption was we're good at making airframes. We can make really good, lightweight, efficient aircraft. We don't necessarily want to be an electronics manufacturer. It's a whole other challenge. Let's buy what we can off the shelf, put it in the aircraft for the command and control and go fly. And we very quickly realized that for the standard that we wanted in terms of being able to satisfy a regulator, that the reliability is at a certain point, having fail safes, having programmability. There was nothing out there when we had to go and design. Avionics, because you could either buy hobby stuff that was inconsistent and of dubious quality, or you had to spend millions of dollars on something out of the military, and then it didn't work commercially. And so we went and looked at cars, and we said, okay, can seems like control area network seems like a good protocol. Let's adopt that. Although some of the peripherals that we buy, like the servos, they don't speak, can so then we have to make a peripheral node that can translate from can to Rs, 232, or whatever. And we went through that process. But over the years, these suppliers that came out of hobby, came out of consumer electronics, came out of the military, very quickly saw the opportunity, and we were one of the companies driving it that hang on. I can make an autopilot module that is ISO certified and has a certain quality assurance that comes with it, and I can make it in a form factor under the price where a commercial drone company can use it. And so it really accelerated the last maybe three, four years. There's a lot of stuff available that's been developed for commercial drones that now gives us a lot more options in terms of what we buy rather than what we make.   Michael Hingson ** 36:13 Well, now I have to ask, since you brought it up, does anybody use Rs 232, anymore? I had to ask. I mean, you know,   Dario Valenza ** 36:21 less and less, yeah, at one point, like we use it for GPS parks, because we didn't have anything that ran on can right slowly we're replacing. So the latest version of the aircraft now is all cap, but it took a while to get there. That's   Michael Hingson ** 36:37 gonna say that's a very long Rs 232, cable you have if you're going to communicate with the aircraft, that'd be I still have here some Rs 232 cables that I remember using them back in the 1980s and into the 1990s but yeah, Rs 232   Dario Valenza ** 36:57 horrendous ones was, there was a, I think it was a light LIDAR altimeter. Someone will correct me, it ran on I squared C, oh, which is the most inappropriate possible thing. And it is what it is. So all we, all we could do is shorten the wire length as much as possible and live with it until we found something better, and   Michael Hingson ** 37:18 then we also had parallel cables. Yes, of course, one connected printers,   Dario Valenza ** 37:26 and we have ethernet on the aircraft for the comms. Well, yeah, there's a lot of translating that we need to do. And again, I'm not an electronic engineer, but I understand enough of it to know what's good and what's not. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 37:38 yeah. The days have gone by with all of the RS, 232, and parallel ports and all that. Now it's all USB and Ethernet and cams and other things like that which making kind of fun. Well, what other industries have you been involved in besides the drone and the boat or yacht world?   Dario Valenza ** 37:56 So I've done a little bit in cinemable Things which was kind of pituitous. The last of the Star Wars prequels was filmed in Sydney, and I happened to be here for a few months between America's Cup campaigns. And there's a few boat builders that were asked to go and do fiberglass work on the set, and they recommended me to do some of the structural design work for some of the sets. I don't think I was credited, but it was fun. Again, not something I planned to do long term. It just happened to come up, and I did it for about three months. As I said, a little bit in motor sport, more as a hobby, but as an interest. But we've made in the early days of carbonics, we made spoilers and wings and bits and pieces for cars when we were getting going, but mainly the sailing of the drones, really, because I've been in the drones now for 10 years. So right?   Michael Hingson ** 38:51 What? Why did you switch? Or maybe, why is it the wrong answer? But what made you switch from doing yachts to drones, and how did the drone story come about?   Dario Valenza ** 39:05 Yeah, so I mentioned the angle of the importance of data, looking for a real world problem where data was going to make a difference, and having the right so that not a solution in search of a problem, but the right solution for this problem, saying, if we can design an airframe that can do this, there's an obvious advantage and an obvious saving that that would make a difference to the world that has a big market. Now that's the theory, then to take the plunge. It was a bit of a combination of things. It was being beholden to the unpredictable movements of the cup, where your career depends on who wins and where it goes, and as a young single man, that's fantastic once you're trying to get married and have a family, becomes a little bit more of a problem. So again, starting your own business doesn't exactly give you stability. Cheap but more stable, I guess. And really that combination of an opportunity, being able to say I can actually see if I can make this work, and see what happens, wanting to be located in one place, I guess, looking for variety as well, and knowing that, you know, I still could have contact with the Americas Cup World, because I said I was doing custom work, and we had people from the cup working in carbonics. But it's really that point where you say, Do I want to keep following the circus around the world, or do you want to try and do my own thing and see how that goes? And I can always go back. And the aim is, you know, once you're committed, then you sort of tend to try and make it work no matter what, and it becomes the new aim, and that's what you put your energy into.   Michael Hingson ** 40:52 I had a guest on unstoppable mindset named Dre Baldwin, and Dre was a professional basketball player for nine years. He went to high school, was on the bench the whole time, went to college, played in college pretty well, but wasn't really noticed until he went to a camp where people could try out and be scouted by professionals who wouldn't come and see you because you weren't famous enough to be seen just by them coming to look for you. But he got a video, and he got some good suggestions, and anyway, he eventually made that into a nine year career. And I asked him, when we talked, why did you end the career? Why did you leave and start a business? And the business he started was up your game LLC, and it's all about helping people up their game in business and so on. And of course, he does it all in the sports environment. But I asked him why he left, and one of the things that he said was it, what people don't know is it's not just the games themselves and the basketball that you play. It's all the other stuff. It's all the fact that if you're going to really do it and be reasonably well, you need to go to the gym a lot, not just when they tell you to practice, but you got to take the initiative and do it on your own. You have to do other things. And he said, I just got to the point where I didn't want to do that, all that invisible part of it anymore. And so he left and started his own business, and has been very successful, but it was an interesting answer. And in a sense, I hear, you know what you're saying. It's really where you're going to go, and what is, what's really going to interest you, which is what has to be part of whatever you do?   Dario Valenza ** 42:34 Yeah, that all makes sense. I think, in my experience, I've never not had an obsession, so to speak. So yeah, with the sailing absolutely like, if you want to be in the America's Cup, it can't be a day job. You have to be committed. You have to be able to concentrate, innovate again, if you're I wasn't an athlete on the boat, so it wasn't necessarily about going to the gym, but certainly doing research, doing testing, working on the boat overnight before I went out the next day. It is a competition, so that the longer, the harder you work, assuming you still keep your performance up, the better you're going to do. So it was an obsession. I accepted that I never it never occurred to me that I don't want to keep doing it right. It was really the logistics. It was thinking, because of the cup had gone to court, we'd had the deed of gift match. Everything had been on hold for a while. It got going again, and the rules changed and there were fewer teams. I'd actually spent a bit of time fundraising for the team that had come out of Valencia to keep it going until the eventual San Francisco cup. So that was interesting as well, saying that, you know, is it getting the reception that I hoped it would, in terms of people investing in it and seeing the value, and kind of looking at it and saying, Okay, now I've got to move to San Francisco the next one, who knows where it's going to be, the format and all those things, you just sort of trade it off and say, Well, if I can make a go of something where I can do it in my hometown, it can be just as interesting, because the technical challenges is just as fascinating. And it's really about, can I create this little environment that I control, where I can do the same fun stuff that I was doing in the cup in terms of tech development, but also make it a business and make a difference to the world and make it commercially viable. And that was really the challenge. And saying that, that was the motivation, to say, if I can take the thing that interests me from the cup and apply it to a commercial technological challenge, then I'll have the best of the best of both worlds.   Michael Hingson ** 44:44 What? What made you really go into doing drones after the yacht stuff?   Dario Valenza ** 44:52 So yeah, certainly that aerial data capture piece, but also the it's very announced. I guess. So most of the work that I was doing in the cup was around aeroelastic optimization, lightweight structures, which really dynamics, yeah. And so, you know, a yacht is a plane with one wing in the water and one wing in the air. It's all fluids. The maths is the same, the physics is the same, the materials are the same. If you do it well in the cup, you win. If you do it well in drones, you win also. But you win by going further and being more efficient and economical at doing these missions. And so it's sort of like having this superpower where you can say, I can make this tool really good that's going to give me an advantage. Let's go and see if that actually makes a difference in the market.   Michael Hingson ** 45:44 Well, I mean, as we know, the only difference really, between water and air is that the molecules are further apart in air than they are in water. So why? It really isn't that much different? He said, being a physicist and picking on chemists, but you know, I do understand what you're saying. So when did you actually start carbonics? Was that when you went into the Drone   Dario Valenza ** 46:05 World? So the business itself early 2012 and as I said, those are a few years there where we're doing custom work. And as it happened, I ended up supplying to New Zealand because we built an A class catamaran, which is effectively a little America's Cup boat for the punters, kind of thing that did well in some regattas. It caught the attention of the team New Zealand guys. They decided to use them as a training platform. We did a world championship where they were skipping the boats the carbonics built did really well in that sort of top five spots got a bunch of commercial orders off the back of that, which then brought some money into subsidize the drones, etc, etc. So by the time we were properly so the first time we flew our airframe would have been, you know, 2015   Michael Hingson ** 46:55 but nobody has created an America's Cup for drones yet. So there's a project for you.   Dario Valenza ** 47:01 They're all sort of drone racing, so I'm not surprised. Yeah, and I think again, it's really interesting. So when you look at motorsport and yacht racing in the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, the 2000s it really was a test bet, because you had to build something, go compete with it, learn from it, repeat. And you'd get, you know, the case of motorsport, traction control, ABS, all that stuff. In the case of sailing, that the use of, you know, modern fiber materials for ropes and structures, that was really sort of the cauldron where the development happened. And I think that was sort of the result of an analog world, so to speak, where you had to build things to know. I think now, with better compute and a more sophisticated role that simulations can play, it's still there is value in competition, but I think it's done in a different way. You're doing it. The key is to iterate virtually as much as possible before you build something, rather than building as many things as possible and doing the development that way.   Michael Hingson ** 48:13 Well, here's an interesting Oh, go ahead, yeah.   Dario Valenza ** 48:16 So I think that affects, certainly, how sport is seen in terms of there's probably more emphasis on the actual athletic competition, on the technology, because there are just other areas now where that development is happening, and SpaceX drones, there are more commercial places where control systems, electronic structures are really being pushed well before it was mainly in sport.   Michael Hingson ** 48:45 Well, here's a business question for you. How do you identify value that is something that you uniquely can do, that other people can't, and that here's the big part, people will pay for it,   Dario Valenza ** 49:01 cost per kilometer of scan is really my answer in the case of carbonics, saying you want to get a digital twin of a power transmission line over 800 kilometers. You can do that with a helicopter, and it's going to cost 1000s of dollars, and you're going to burn tons of fuel, and you can only get so close, etc. So you can only do it in visual conditions, and that's sort of the current best practice. That's how it's done. You can do it with satellites, but you can't really get in close enough yet in terms of resolution and independent on orbits and weather. You can do it by having someone drive or walk along the line, and that's stupendously inefficient. You can do it with multi rotor drones, and then, yeah, you might be able to do five kilometers at a time, but then you got to land and relocate and launch again, and you end up with this big sort of disparity of data sets that go stitch together by the time you add that all up. It's actually more expensive than a helicopter. Or you could do it with a drone like. Fly for 800 kilometers, which is making it Yes, and making a drone that can fly for 800 kilometers is not trivial, and that's where the unique value sits. And it's not just the airframe that the airframe holds it all up, but you have to have the redundancies to command and control, the engineering certifications, the comms, the stability, the payload triggering and geo tagging. So all of that stuff has to work. And the value of carbonics is, yes, the carbon fiber in the airframe, but also the the team ethos, which, again, comes out of that competition world, to really grab the low hanging fruit, make it all work, get it out there and be flexible, like we've had missions with stuff hasn't gone to plan, and we've fixed it, and we've still delivered the data. So the value is really being able to do something that no one else can do.   Michael Hingson ** 50:54 So I assume that you're still having fun as a founder and the owner of a company,   51:02 sometimes,   Michael Hingson ** 51:05 more often than not, one would hope,   Dario Valenza ** 51:07 Oh, absolutely, yeah. I mean, obviously there's a huge amount of pride in seeing now we're 22 people, some of certainly leaders in the field, some of the best in the world, the fact that they have chosen to back the vision, to spend years of their professional life making it happen, according to the thing that I started, I mean that that's flattering and humbling. There's always a challenge. It's always interesting. Again, having investors and all that you're not it's not all on my shoulders. People that are also invested, literally, who have the same interests and we support each other. But at the same time, it's not exactly certain. In terms of you're always working through prices and looking at what's going to happen in a day a year, six months, but you sort of get used to it and say, Well, I've done this willingly. I know there's a risk, but it's fun and it's worth it, and we'll get there. And so you do it   Michael Hingson ** 52:10 well, you're the you're the visionary, and that that brings excitement to it all. And as long as you can have fun and you can reward yourself by what you're doing. It doesn't get any better than that.   Dario Valenza ** 52:26 So they tell me, yeah, how do you absolutely, how do you   Michael Hingson ** 52:31 create a good, cohesive team?   Dario Valenza ** 52:36 Values, I think, are the base of them would be very clear about what we are and what we aren't. It's really interesting because I've never really spent any time in a corporate environment, nor do I want to. So keeping that informal fun element, where it's fairly egalitarian, it's fairly focused, we're not too worried about saying things how they are and offending people. We know we're all in it together. It's very much that focus and common goal, I think, creates the bond and then communication like being absolutely clear about what are we trying to do? What are the priorities? What are the constraints? And constantly updating each other when, when one department is having an issue and it's going to hold something up, we support each other and we adjust accordingly, and we move resources around. But yeah, I think the short answer is culture you have to have when someone walks in, there's a certain quality to the atmosphere that tells you what this team is about, right? And everyone is on their page, and it's not for everyone. Again, we don't demand that people put in their heart and soul into 24/7 but if you don't, you probably don't want   Michael Hingson ** 53:56 to be there. Yeah, makes sense. So what kind of advice would you give to someone who's starting out in a career or considering what they want to do with their lives?   Dario Valenza ** 54:08 Where do I start? Certainly take, take the risks while you're young and independent, you don't have a lot to lose. Give it a go and be humble. So getting my experience going into the cup like my approach was, I'll clean the floors, I'll be the Gopher, I'll work for free, until you guys see some value, like I'm it's not about what am I going to get out of this? It's how do I get involved, and how do I prove myself? And so being open and learning, being willing to put in the hours. And I think at one point there was a comment during the trial that he doesn't know what he's doing, but he's really keen, and his attitude is good. And I think that's that's how you want to be, because you can learn the thing you. That you need to have the attitude to be involved and have have a go.   Michael Hingson ** 55:05 Have fun. Yeah, you have to decide to have fun.   Dario Valenza ** 55:14 Yeah, absolutely. You have to be interested in what you're doing, because if you're doing it for the money, yes, it's nice when you get the paycheck, but you don't have that passion to really be motivated and put in the time. So right by this is that the Venn diagram right, find something you're interested in, that someone is willing to pay you for, and that you're good at, not easy, but having that openness and the humble and saying, Well, I'm don't try and get to the top straightaway, like get in, prove yourself. Learn, improve, gain skills, and probably, in my case, the value of cross pollination. So rather than sort of going into one discipline and just learning how it's done and only seeing that, look at the analogous stuff out there and see how you can apply it. Yeah. So again, from from boats to drones, from cars to boats, from really racing to business, abstract the problem into what are we trying to solve? What are the variables? How's it been done elsewhere, and really knowing when to think by analogy and when to think from first principles,   Michael Hingson ** 56:23 that makes sense. And with that, I'm going to thank you. We've been doing this for an hour. My gosh, is life fun or what? But I really appreciate it. Well, there you go. I appreciate you being here, and this has been a lot of fun. I hope that all of you out there watching and listening have liked our podcast episode. Please let us know. I'd appreciate it if you'd email me. Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I B, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is w, w, w, dot Michael hingson, that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, and I would ask you how, how can people reach out to you? If they'd like to reach out to you and maybe learn more about what you do, maybe join the team?   Dario Valenza ** 57:09 Yeah, probably the easiest way would be LinkedIn, just Dario Valencia. Otherwise, my email is just Dario D, A, R, I, o@carbonics.com.au.au,   Michael Hingson ** 57:21 being Australian, and Valenc spelled V, A,   Dario Valenza ** 57:25 l e n z, A, but the email is just dario@carbonics.com.au You don't need to know how to spell my last name, right? Yeah, sorry for the LinkedIn. It'll be Dario Valencia, V A, l e n z A, or look at the carbonics profile on LinkedIn, and I'll be one of the people who works. There you   Michael Hingson ** 57:43 go. Well again, this has been fun, and we appreciate you, and hope that people will reach out and want to learn more. If you know of anybody who might make a good guest, or if any of you watching or listening out there might know of anyone who would be a good guest for unstoppable mindset, I sure would appreciate it if you'd let us know, we really value your help with that. We're always looking for more people to be on the podcast, so please don't hesitate. And also, wherever you're listening or watching, we sure would appreciate it if you give us a five star rating. We really appreciate your views, especially when they're positive, but we like all the comments, so however you're listening and so on, please give us a five star rating and let us know how we can even do better next time. But Dario, again, I want to thank you. Really appreciate you being here with us today. This has been a lot of fun, and I'm glad I learned a lot today. So thank you very much.   58:37 My pleasure. You   **Michael Hingson ** 58:43 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

From time to time I am contacted by someone who says they have an interesting and thought provoking guest who would be perfect for Unstoppable Mindset. Such was the case when I was contacted about our guest this time, Dre Baldwin. Dre and I had an initial conversation and I invited him to appear as a guest. I must say that he more than exceeded my expectations. And now he is back for a second time with us with more stories and insights.   You may recall from my first episode with him that Dre grew up in Philadelphia. He wanted to do something with sports and tried out various options until he discovered Basketball in high school. While he wasn't considered overly exceptional and only played one year in high school he realized that Basketball was the sport for him.   Dre went to Penn State and played all four of his college years. Again, while he played consistently and reasonably well, he was not noticed and after college he was not signed to a professional team. He worked at a couple of jobs for a time and then decided to try to get noticed for basketball by going to a camp where he could be seen by scouts and where he could prove he had the talent to make basketball a profession. As he will tell us, eventually he did get a contract to play professionally. Other things happened along the way as you will hear. Dre discovered Youtube and the internet and began posting basketball tips which became popular.   In this episode we continue to discuss with Dre the lessons he wishes to convey as well as his life philosophy. Dre discuss more about the value and need for personal initiative. He tells us the value of having a personal initiative mindset and how that can lead to high performance.   I asked Dre about how playing basketball prepared him for his work in business. His answer will surprise you. It did me. As he points out, his business preparation came earlier and in different ways than playing basketball.   I also asked Dre why he left playing professional basketball. Again, his answer is fascinating. I will leave that for Dre to tell you.   I hope you enjoy my talk with Dre as much as I. Dre Baldwin provided many lessons we all can use. Who knows? Dre, you and I may talk again. Stay tuned.       About the Guest:   As CEO and Founder of Work On Your Game Inc., Dre Baldwin has given 4 TEDxTalks on Discipline, Confidence, Mental Toughness & Personal Initiative and has authored 35 books. He has appeared in national campaigns with Nike, Finish Line, Wendy's, Gatorade, Buick, Wilson Sports, STASH Investments and DIME magazine.    Dre has published over 8,000 videos to 142,000+ subscribers, his content being consumed over 103 million times.    Dre's daily Work On Your Game MasterClass has amassed over 2,900 episodes and more than 7.3 million downloads.    In just 5 years, Dre went from the end of his high school team's bench to a 9-year professional basketball career. He played in 8 countries including Lithuania, Germany, Montenegro, Slovakia and Germany.    Dre invented his Work On Your Game framework as a "roadmap in reverse" to help professionals with High Performance, Consistency and Results.    A Philadelphia native, Dre lives in Miami.   Ways to connect Dre:   http://Instagram.com/DreBaldwin http://YouTube.com/Dreupt https://www.facebook.com/WorkOnYourGameUniversity http://LinkedIn.com/in/DreAllDay http://X.com/DreAllDay http://TikTok.com/WorkOnYourGame   Kindly use this link for our Free book, The Third Day

Tabatha Jones spent 20 years in the corporate world which she joined right out of high school. Soon after beginning work in a call center she began to discover her own leadership skills and began forging her own path in the corporate environment. Tabatha found that she could empower others to be better than they thought by providing a natural, honest and positive leadership style.   As Tabatha describes, she learned how to communicate and help connect the C Suite leaders in companies to those they lead. She learned to be a positive conduit to help all parts of companies where she served to learn and grow. She tells us stories about how she thrived as a leader and how she created positive change wherever she worked. She provides us with some really good leadership tips.   While Tabatha says her programs today are mainly to help women who more often do not have the confidence to lead, she states emphatically that her teachings do help men as well and she has male clients to prove it.   As Tabatha says, while she was a corporate leader for many years, she also used that time to coach and help others to learn leadership skills. Seven years ago Tabatha decided to leave working for others to form her own coaching firm, Empowered Leadership Coaching, LLC. She helps people learn how they can positively grow and advance in their own careers.   I very much enjoyed this episode and found that Tabatha and I have a lot of leadership views in common. For example, we discuss trust and the need for real trust in work environments. She tells a story about a mistake she made as a leader and how she dealt with it to keep the trust of all persons involved. I think you have a lot to gain from Tabatha. At the end of this episode she tells us how to get a free eBook that provides invaluable lessons to help you in your own efforts to rise in the work world.       About the Guest:   Tabatha Jones is the CEO of Empowered Leadership Coaching, LLC, a Career Advancement & Leadership Coach, author, and keynote speaker based in the SF Bay Area, working with clients nationwide. With over 20 years of experience leading high-performing technical teams in Corporate America, she transitioned into coaching at the age of 50, driven by her passion for helping women break through career barriers and achieve leadership success. Tabatha specializes in working with ambitious Gen-X women who are ready to stop playing small and make the next years the most impactful of their careers. Through her personalized coaching programs, she empowers her clients to develop strategic career plans, build unshakable confidence, elevate their visibility, and secure significant promotions. Her clients, including leaders at companies like Comcast, Cisco, Abbvie, PG&E, and Tyson, have successfully climbed the corporate ladder, developed standout leadership skills, and positioned themselves as top candidates for advancement. As a sought-after keynote speaker, Tabatha inspires audiences with actionable insights on leadership, career advancement, and empowerment. She is also the author of Promotion Ready in 3 Months: The Women's Guide to Career Advancement, available on Amazon.   Ways to connect Tabatha:   Website: https://www.empowered-leader.com/   Connect with me on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tabatha-jones-4485854/   Grab a Free Resource: GenX Promotion Planning Assessment: https://www.empowered-leader.com/promotionassessment   Purchase a copy of my book on Amazon: https://a.co/d/gpoqjNw   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another edition, an exciting edition of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and the unexpected is everything that doesn't have anything to do with inclusion or diversity, which is most things, according to my diversity friends, but that's okay, our guest today. How do I do this? Okay, I'll just be up front. As many of you know, I use a screen reader, which is a piece of software to verbalize whatever comes across the screen. And when my screen reader finds my guest today's name, it pronounces it Tabatha. Don't you like that? Of course, it's Tabitha, but Tabata, so, so Tabitha. Tabatha Jones, welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Tabatha Jones ** 02:09 Oh, thank you so much for having me here. And Tabatha sounds fairly International, and maybe I'll take it, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 02:16 well, you can have it. It's yours. I don't think that the screen reader will mind a whole lot. But But what we're glad you're here now. I met Tabitha, as I have mentioned in the past with others, through an event that I attend, pada palooza. And Tabitha and I were both at the most recent pot of palooza. So what took you there? Are you starting a podcast, or are you just wanting to be interviewed by podcasters, or do you already have a podcast and you've done 1000s of episodes already?   Tabatha Jones ** 02:46 Well, I haven't done 1000s of episodes. I'm a fairly new podcaster. I've launched my own it's called the Gen X, free mix life, laughs and next acts. I think we're at about Episode 11. I was actually really interested in joining pada palusa to meet other podcasters. Here's some success stories and learn some great tips and tricks as I'm continuing to build mine out and and engage my audience well. So if there's   Michael Hingson ** 03:11 any way I can help, you, just need to shout out and glad to do it. And if you ever need a guest, and if I can fit the mold, I'm also glad to do that. It's always fun to to be a guest. When people want to come on unstoppable mindset, and I discover that they have a podcast, I always tell them, Well, you know, and many of them say, Well, do you charge for guests? And I say, Yes, I do. The charges you have to let me be a guest on your podcast, or if I go on to their podcast. I say I charge for that, and the charges that you have to come on my cop podcast to be a guest. So it works out.   Tabatha Jones ** 03:47 It's a fantastic tip. I'm taking that down and definitely having you on the podcast. Oh my gosh, yeah, that'd be fun.   Michael Hingson ** 03:53 Well, it it is cute. Actually, last week of a couple in Australia, a couple people emailed me and they they want to come on unstoppable mindset. And I was glad to do that. And they said, you know, but, but what's your charge? And I said, Well, I know you have a podcast. I have to be on yours. They said, Oh, we can, we can pay that. So it's fine. It is. You know, podcasting is so, so much fun. I did radio for years at the University of California at Irvine, and I like radio. Radio is a wonderful thing, but you're more structured because you have a limited amount of time. You've got to do certain things, you've got commercials you got to do, and sponsors that you have to satisfy, and some of that can happen with the podcast, but it's still not nearly as rigid, which makes it a lot of fun.   Tabatha Jones ** 04:45 Yeah, absolutely. And there's so much variety out there. One of the coolest things for me about starting a podcast is it's led me to so many other podcast shows that I had never listened to before, yours included. So now I think I'm following maybe. 30 to 40 different shows that I hadn't heard of until very recently, I'd say, probably the last six to eight months, and I'm loving it. I learned something new every single day. I learned something about someone's experience that leads me to check more into what they've shared. And it's really been fun. It's been a much more fun adventure for me than the social media that I was kind of, kind of dabbling in a little bit, but podcasts, it's just so much more personal and fun. It   Michael Hingson ** 05:27 is. It's much more connectional. And social media is just so impersonal, and people spend so much time doing it, and I'm amazed at some of the people who spend so many hours on it. I could, I don't do a lot of stuff on social media. I will post things occasionally, and I'm amazed at how fast some people, as soon as they as soon as I post, within minutes, they're responding to it. And I'm going, how do you do that? But anyway, it's people focus on that. But it's so impersonal compared to doing things like podcasting, because you do get to know people. You get to learn about people. And as I tell people constantly, if I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else who listens to this podcast, then I'm not doing my job well, which is kind of the way I look at it. And I always like to learn things from everyone who comes on and who I get to interact with because of the podcast.   Tabatha Jones ** 06:21 Yeah, so much fun. It is. You know, one of the things when we met that really connected me to you was just your story and sharing your author journey on top of it. So, yeah, you're kind of stuck with me in your fan club for a little bit following   Michael Hingson ** 06:40 you Well, thank you. And it is, it is fun to do that and following you back. It's, it's a lot of fun. And as I said, I enjoy getting to know people and connecting and learning which is cool, and to introduce you a little bit more to people, and I'll get to letting you do some of that too. But Tabitha is the CEO of empowered leadership coaching LLC, which is obviously a coaching organization, and you started doing that when you were 50. Of course I could, I could, circuitously get to and and how long ago was that, which would then tell us your age, but I won't that's   Tabatha Jones ** 07:25 all right. As a career advancement coach, I tell people all the time, don't put those long dates on your resume. People will start guessing your age, and then we've got another whole situation. I think the good thing with coaching is age and experience go together, and people see that a little bit differently, which has been fun. Yeah, I left it, you know, corporate at 50, and started my own business. I had been doing it on the side, but now I get to do it every day, and it's so   Michael Hingson ** 07:50 much fun. Well, seriously, how long have you been doing it?   Tabatha Jones ** 07:54 You know, for officially. Oh, I gotta do math. 2017. Is when I started. So,   Michael Hingson ** 08:01 oh, okay, well, there you go. So, 10 years, okay, yeah, and then   Tabatha Jones ** 08:04 I had been doing it as part of my job for more than 20 years. So as a leader in corporate, more than 20 years of coaching experience came from that sure   Michael Hingson ** 08:13 when you've got seven years of official long term, real life, constant experience, which is, which is great too. Well, tell us about the early Tabitha growing up and some of those kinds of things that would get us to know you better.   Tabatha Jones ** 08:28 Well, I grew up in a little town called Livermore. It's not so little anymore out here in California, in the East Bay, I am the oldest of four, and you   Michael Hingson ** 08:37 were never irradiated by the the accelerators, or any of the things that Livermore Labs.   Tabatha Jones ** 08:41 No, there was so much Hush, hush, secret stuff going on out there. But, you know, it was always very cool. They had a swimming pool you could go swim at. I think it was 75 cents to go swim for the whole day at the pool. And, you know, as a grown up, I'm all, should we really have been swimming there? I don't   Michael Hingson ** 08:58 know. Oh, it was safe. Well, it was absolutely Were you ever there after dark? No, so you don't know whether anything glowed in the dark or not. So you didn't probably you were safe.   Tabatha Jones ** 09:07 Probably safe. Yeah, nope. Genetics kids, when the street lights came on, we went home.   Michael Hingson ** 09:11 There you go. But anyway, so Livermore, yeah,   Tabatha Jones ** 09:15 Livermore, and then let's see. So I finished high school. Didn't really know what I was going to do. I stuck a little toe in the telecommunications industry at AT and T and got a job there right out of high school, answering phones and learning all kinds of great things. Did a lot of growing up in that space. Gosh, it was a it was an interesting journey. I actually was sitting in a call center taking phone calls during the 1989 earthquake, which, oh, boy, you may remember, right? I know I was training somebody, and I just looked at the person. I said, we're gonna hang up and go under the desk. That's what we're doing. And that was the day before my birthday. So I got my birthday off that year, which. You know, as they planned   10:00 out very well,   Tabatha Jones ** 10:02 yeah. But terrible, terrible, tragic earthquake, unfortunately. But, you know, I do just kind of try to make a little lighter of it with that. You know, the birthday off, but it is. It was an interesting time, for sure. I lived   Michael Hingson ** 10:16 in Vista, California at the time. Well, actually, I take it back. I lived in Mission Viejo. We hadn't moved to VISTA yet, although I had a job in Carlsbad, and I remember coming out to get on a bus to go from Carlsbad back up to Mission Viejo. And I was going to listen to the World Series, and it wasn't on, and it took me about 15 minutes before, I finally found a radio station that announced that there had been an earthquake. And then we got home, and then we started. We just Karen was was at home, and we just started watching it on TV, and they had all the the live shots and all that, and the freeway collapse and so on. It was, needless to say, quite the event. Karen and I survived. We were in, not married yet in, well, 19, whatever that would have been, 69 or 70 or 71 the Sylmar quake. I don't think it was in 74 I think it was earlier than that. But there was a big earthquake up in Sylmar, and we felt it at UC Irvine, and then we had the Whittier Narrows and Northridge quakes, so we felt those as well. But yeah, that had to be pretty rough in 89 for all of you up there.   Tabatha Jones ** 11:38 Yeah, it was pretty, pretty interesting. You know, from that point, you know, I just was training somebody as I as I mentioned, and, you know, we, we took that next day and couple of days kind of getting things together, working through the call center, handling a lot of emergency calls and things that were going on. And I'd say that's probably the first time I felt that call to leadership, you know, and realized I wanted to do more than being a call center, answering phones. There's nothing wrong with that, but for me, it wasn't the end all. And I started working on mapping out, how am I going to build my career here? Managed to advance a couple of times, and then went through a major layoff. So AT and T we all know, went through a lot of change over the years, but in the 80s and early 90s, there was a lot. So I did a couple of different things in between, and then one day, I walked into what was the Viacom cable office and decided I'm going to apply for a job here. It's just six months for experience, and we'll see where it goes. I fell in love with the cable industry. As weird as it sounds, I loved it, so I worked up really quickly into a lead role, and then started shifting into technology, which is where I spent most of my career, leading those technical teams and just really loving it. But yeah, yeah, that's kind of the journey from the early life into the career side of things. But   Michael Hingson ** 13:05 what kind of things did you do in as a leader for Viacom?   Tabatha Jones ** 13:09 So Viacom was where you in, went through. So I was in the call center. Initially became a lead there, moved into credit and collections and learned everything there was to learn there. It wasn't really my jam, but it was a great place to be. And then I moved into the Information Services Department, and you probably remember this back in the day of punching down phone lines in the little box, in different I don't know if you ever did that, but yeah, soldering cat five lines, crawling under desk, climbing up ladders, doing all those things. So that was early. It days before the internet. Still, I think crazy to say,   Michael Hingson ** 13:48 so did you do that? Or did you lead people who did that? So I   Tabatha Jones ** 13:52 did that early on. I learned everything I could in that department. I learned how to print reports. I knew learned how to compile data. I learned how to code the billing system, moved into project management from there, still on the information services side, and led some really huge projects through that time. We went through three companies. We landed at Comcast. That was where I was for the longest, but never really left, you know, my role, and just fell in love with the technology, because it changes all the time. It's never the same day twice. I loved working with technical people, and learned really quickly that one of my gifts was being able to translate between the Technical Suite and the C suite. So taking those great ideas and going and securing the budget or coming in with here's what the leadership team is thinking. Here's how I think we can do it. What are your thoughts and being able to translate and move things forward really fast. That's where I joined the leadership team and stayed, and I loved it. Climbing the ladder at Comcast was a lot of fun for me. Yeah. Do   Michael Hingson ** 15:00 you think that really taking the time to get that technical knowledge and learn those various jobs, even though you necessarily didn't do them all the time, but learning how to do those jobs? Do you think that was a valuable thing for you, looking back on it now,   Tabatha Jones ** 15:19 yeah, I do in some ways. And I spoke at a women in telecom sorry, it's women in tech and telecom seminar a few years back. And one of the things that we know is women don't advance as quickly into technical leadership roles, and being able to say in that room, leadership is not a technical skill. Just let the light bulbs off for people, because we hold ourselves back. And it's not just women, but it definitely happens in the female space, where we will hold ourselves back. Oh, I'm not technical enough, oh, I don't know enough. Oh, I can't code Python. It. It doesn't always matter for me, having the basis helped because I understood the work the team was doing. I understood quicker ways to do things. I had done them myself the hard way, but it gave me a little bit more, I'd say, street cred with the team, not that they ever expected me to code a macro or build an automation program, but because I could come and speak to them in a language that made sense, then they could go build the thing and do their jobs. So I do think it helped. It helped give me really great insight to what could be and let us really drive innovation quickly, which was super fun. I   Michael Hingson ** 16:41 agree with you on that I felt in everything that I did as a as a leader, working in a variety of different kinds of roles, I felt it necessary to learn the things that the people who worked for me and with me did because at least I could then articulate them. I could talk about them. I didn't necessarily have to do them all the time, and there were some things that I wasn't going to be able to do, for example, for four years or three and a half years, four I owned a company that sold PC based CAD systems to architects, computer aided design systems, for those who don't know, to architects and engineers and so on. And they were some of the early PC based CAD systems. We started in 1985 doing that. And needless to say, that was and and still is very much a highly graphic environment. And that isn't something that I'm going to be able to sit down in front of a computer terminal and do, because the technology, even today, doesn't exist to describe all of that information for me, so that I have access to it as quickly and as efficiently as a person who can see but even though I wouldn't be able to run a CAD system, I knew how to do it. So I could then sit down with an architect in front of a machine and ask them what they wanted to do, and then described them what they needed to do to make it happen. So I actually made them part of the process of showing themselves how the cast system worked by them actually working it. Now I also have people who work for me, but I did know how to do that, and I think that was extremely important. And I've always felt that having that knowledge is is helpful. I do tend to be very technical. I've got a master's degree in physics and so on. And I I think that having that technical knowledge is kind of part of the way I operate, which is fine, but still, I think that having that technical knowledge, really, even if it's only to be able to talk about it at the right times, was a very helpful thing and made me a better leader.   Tabatha Jones ** 18:59 Yeah, absolutely would agree with that, and understanding just the basics of what can and can't be done, or, you know, what my limitations were, and being vulnerable with going back to my team and saying, This is as far as I know how to take it. I need you to walk me through what the next steps are, or what your ideas are, or what your thoughts are. And I had a wonderful team. I'd say one of the benefits of not being the most technical person on the team is then I'm not seen as someone who's micromanaging. I'm not seen as someone who has all the answers. And for my teams, that worked out great because they loved showing their innovation. They loved showing ideas and bringing new technology, tools and things to the forefront, which made it a lot more fun for them, too. And I'd say one of the coolest things I did with my team was I was given, you know, in corporate world, you're sometimes gifted new responsibilities, and one of the new responsibilities. I was gifted with, was creating a quality control team, and this team was going to validate all of the data that the Information Services coding team was developing in the billing system. And it was needed the error rate, I mean, the accuracy rate, rather, was only about 70 ish percent. Wow. So it needed to change. It was impacting our frontline, impacting our techs. It was causing revenue gaps, right, customer experience problems. The vision that was given to me is we want you to hire three people, and they're going to manually validate this data all day long, and me being a hybrid technical people person said, Hold the phone. We're not doing that. So I went and hired someone who was an expert at SQL and Tableau. We then hired someone who was an expert at Quality Assurance, because that's what she had been doing in the call center, was validating orders and making sure the billing their statements were going out correct. So she had the manual aspect. And then we hired a third person who wasn't quite as technical as the first, but definitely a really good balance between the two and between the three of them and their ideas and their skills, and then my abilities as a leader to guide them through. You know, this is what we need. This is the vision. This is the budget, this is the the outcome that we want to get to. We were able to build something that was automated, that drove accuracy up to 98.1% Wow, and it's probably better today, but it's just because that the ability to see people who can bring in the best parts of their knowledge and then work together to build something. That's what helps technology advance so much faster.   Michael Hingson ** 21:44 Yeah, but it's but it's important to be able to do that. And you you learn to have the vision, or innately, you have the vision to to bring that about. And it sounds to me like all of the people that that you were leading really respected you, because you were, first of all, you were not a threat to them, and you clearly showed an interest in what they did, and you loved to hear them talk about it, because that taught you things that you didn't know   Tabatha Jones ** 22:17 exactly, oh my gosh, and they were great about what I'd say is dumbing things down. I'd sit there sometimes and would be listening to somebody, an analyst, who was excited and explaining all these great things they were doing. And finally, my face would say, okay, hold the phone. We need to step back just a teeny bit. I needed to bring it down, maybe just a little bit more. And once I got it, then everybody would be just jazzed and so excited and out to share, and, you know, made sure that they were getting to do part of the presenting when it went to higher levels, so that they could get credit and feel that value, which is so, so critical to help, you know, just boost that morale and keep inspiring people.   Michael Hingson ** 22:53 The other part of that, though, is you are also teaching them some probably sorely needed communication skills, because they're used to just talking very technical, and they're used to just talking to each other, and everybody gets it right away. But the reality is that I would think that they came to realize, well, maybe we need to present it in a little bit different way, because not everybody looks at it the way we do   Tabatha Jones ** 23:21 exactly that's where a lot of coaching came in and helping people work together better in the communication space, and then bringing it forward in a way that people understood. We did a really cool program. It was called insights. It exists out there, and there are people who are certified to administer it, but it basically is a personality assessment based on colors. So red, yellow, blue, green, and blue is generally your very technical, more introverted detail specific people. The Office of that is yellow, and I am very high yellow, which is your, include me. Bring me in. Let's have a party. Let's talk about it. So it was good for me, because it caused me to bring that yellow energy down a bit, which kept the, you know, the conversations going and the conversations open, and they learned to elevate that yellow energy a little bit so we could meet in the middle really well. And some of them had different, you know, red or green in there. But it was really interesting to be leading a team with such opposite energy. From that perspective,   Michael Hingson ** 24:27 did you ever find people who just resisted learning to meet in the middle or learning to do some of the things that you really wanted them to do, and they just didn't want to do that at all?   Tabatha Jones ** 24:41 Oh yes, yes, there were a couple, and that required more coaching, right? So one who had been used to working in a very specific way before we were reorganized and he was moved under me, it took multiple times and finally, a mild threat to. Get him to come forward and come on board with the new process, because sometimes it's really easy to stick in doing things the old way. He had been doing it for 1520, years. And I joke when I say threats. I don't threaten people, but you know, it was kind of a I need you to come up with the rest of the team. Here's what you're doing and how it's impacting the team, and even though it feels like it's making your customer happy in the long run, it's not because they're going to have to work with other people, and we need to make sure that they understand that this has changed, and then another who was more my way or the highway, and that took, you know, again, a bit of coaching. So his leader worked for me, and so his leader and I would come up with different plans and different strategies to put him in positions where he had to stay a little bit more quiet and let the team members bring forward their ideas. And rather than him jumping to a no, it was, we want you to start asking these three questions, and, you know, whatever the questions were to get the conversation going, and then the light bulb started going off for him. Like, wow. Some of these individuals have definitely had different training on, you know, whatever type of technology it is that makes perfect sense. What if we combine this so he was able to actually help us bring out the best in everyone, once he took that step back and really started listening and getting a bit more curious.   Michael Hingson ** 26:30 Well, that that's, you know, of course, a wonderful skill to have, because people need to recognize that not everybody is where they are   Tabatha Jones ** 26:42 exactly. It's true. And you know, I kind of think back when we were talking about the leadership aspect and leading technical teams, I coach a lot of people on interview skills and helping them present their best selves for the job that they're interviewing for. And one thing that seems to be a habit for people who are very technical and are also leaders is deferring so much their technical skills, and it's good, but you've got to have that balance. When you're applying for a leadership role, what happens that is very disappointing, is they'll be told, Well, we're not really seeing your leadership skills or your leadership qualities or not feeling like you're a good fit with this team. Usually, when a company is hiring a technical people leader, they want to know you can lead people, because not everybody can do both,   Michael Hingson ** 27:40 right, or they haven't learned how to   Tabatha Jones ** 27:43 right. It's true. Not everybody wants to. Sometimes they think they do because it's the next logical step, but sometimes people are just really happy being hands on others. To your point, you can learn. You can step into maybe a lead role, and start learning how to let go of some things and and get more comfortable with not being the smartest person in the room, because once you're the leader, you've got to have that balance and, and it's a learning a learning curve, for sure,   Michael Hingson ** 28:09 yeah. And unfortunately, there are way too many people, certainly, a lot of them are technical who think they're the smartest person in the room, whether they are not, and then some of them are. But still, that's not always the solution to making things work, especially if you're working in a team.   Tabatha Jones ** 28:29 Absolutely, yeah, it's all about the team. And it can't be. They always say there's no me and team. But technically, if you rearrange the letters there, kind of is that's maybe snow i Maybe it's No, I in team. No, I in team.   Michael Hingson ** 28:43 Yeah, there's no i That's true. But you know, one of my favorite books I enjoy reading it often, is actually the Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. Have you ever read that?   Tabatha Jones ** 28:55 I have not read that. I am aware of it. I have not bought it yet. It's a   Michael Hingson ** 29:00 short book, relatively speaking, but it's great because it really puts teamwork in perspective, and it really defines what should happen in a well functioning team, including the fact that members of the team can hold each other accountable when the team is comfortable with each other. And then, of course, it's all the team leader who has to really bring people together and meld the team into a cohesive working group. But the good team leaders can do that and understand what their role has to be in getting everybody to operate at peak performance.   Tabatha Jones ** 29:39 Love that. I will get that back on my list. Radical candor is kind of similar, as far as you know, being able to say what needs to be said and feeling like you're in a safe space to say it. Yeah, that's one of the things that I always found a little, I guess, frightening as a leader, is when I would talk to another leader and say, What feedback have you given this person? Well. Feedback is so negative, like no feedback given with love is there with the intention of helping the person grow and do better and understand what they're doing really well so they can keep doing that. So yeah, being able to let the team members or ask the team members hold each other accountable, be honest with each other, this isn't about feelings. This is about respect, and sometimes it's a hard conversation. It's really crunchy and uncomfortable. But once it happens, the trust that is built is it's unstoppable, well,   Michael Hingson ** 30:30 but feedback can also be a very positive thing. And it can be that you're doing a great job. Here's what you're doing. It isn't necessarily but you're not doing this right? It, it can be exactly a very positive thing. And there, there are certainly times that we all like to get that as well.   Tabatha Jones ** 30:47 Absolutely feedback is my favorite F word. I always say it is just, it's so important. And I've worked with people who have said, you know, I can't get feedback from my boss. I said, Well, what do you mean? And they said, Well, he All he says is just, you're doing a good job. Keep doing that. Yeah. Well, what specifically am i doing that's a good job. So feedback in itself is a skill, both giving it in a positive way and giving it in a constructive way. But all feedback is good when it's given with the right intention and it's given with, you know, just honesty and love. And   Michael Hingson ** 31:20 there's a skill in receiving feedback too and recognizing if you trust the feedback, the feeder backer, if you trust the person giving you the feedback, then you know that they're not out to get you. Yeah. And that's part of it is breaking through the usual shell that most of us probably a build up. Well, that person has some sort of alternative agenda they're out to get me. And that isn't always the case. And, oh, absolutely, unfortunately, sometimes it is, but it doesn't necessarily mean it always is. Yeah, I agree.   Tabatha Jones ** 31:54 You know, if you think back to feedback that you've been given throughout your life, is there a piece of feedback that you were given that really changed the way you do things. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 32:06 I can think of some, and I think that most of us can, because the people giving us the feedback were concerned about trying to help and concerned to try to get us to hear what others in the world are are saying or thinking. And if we take that to heart, that can be a very positive thing.   Tabatha Jones ** 32:32 Yeah, absolutely. One of the biggest foundations for me as a leader is trust and trust with my team, both going both directions to them, from me and from them to to from me to them, and from them to me. So complete trust. It's so important. And you know, knowing that I've had employees come and give me feedback, and it doesn't matter what level I was at or what level they were at, once, I knew that they were comfortable giving me feedback. I knew our relationship was strong, yeah, and, you know, I've had people come and say, I didn't really like the way that you said that. It would have been more impactful if you had done this. I've had clients come and say, you know, when you said that, I really reflected on it. And maybe we're not in the same spot. So let me say this again and see if you can, you can address it a different way. Great. If we don't have trust, we're not going to go anywhere. So it's such an important piece of of building trust. In   Michael Hingson ** 33:26 my new book, live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dog about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith. Long title, well at the end, the subtitle, but one of the things that I talk about is that I've learned a lot of lessons about dealing with fear and dealing with people from my dogs, because dogs do things differently than we do and don't have any near, anywhere near the stress that We do. For example, dogs are, I think, creatures that do love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. What dogs do, however, is that they tend to be less something is really hurt a dog. They tend to be more open to trust, and they want to build a trusting relationship with us if we're open to it, because they are, and when we recognize that and we truly build the trusting relationship, it's second to none. So then you've got the love part that is there, but the trusting part, it's a whole different story. And I know that when I start working with every guide dog and people say, Oh, how long does it take to really get used to a dog? My response is, it takes roughly a year. Because it takes a long time for both sides of the team to truly recognize and have enough confidence in the other that they have that trust that they need to have.   Tabatha Jones ** 34:59 Yeah. Dogs are so much better than people. I will tell you their behavior is so much better, but I get that and you know someone who adopted my last two dogs. One was three years old when I got her from the pound, and she lived to be 15, and my other one is she's eight. I got her when she was three from someone that was re homing her. But they do. They they teach you that I can love you, but I don't know that I trust you yet. I've got to build this up like I will lick you and throw a party when you come home, but don't be trying to pick me up yet. We're not there. Yeah. So, you know, I can imagine, with a guide dog, it's even more elevated, and I can't write to read your that book, because I just finished underdog. I did. I don't know why the name just went blank. I posted it on my Facebook and Instagram. I was so excited, but yeah, oh my gosh. I can't wait to read the new one. If you   Michael Hingson ** 35:48 get a chance with both of them, go review them at Amazon. So lovely. Get a we always appreciate reviews. So Amazon and Goodreads are the best places to go to go do reviews, and they're very helpful. But when you read, live like a guide dog, love to get your thoughts, and you're welcome to email me and love to chat about it as well. But you're right that there are so many things about dogs that really teach us a lot. One of my favorite things that I talk about a lot, and we deal with it and live like a guide dog is we, as people tend to what if everything to death. We What if everything well, what if this? What if that? And the reality is, most of the things that we're dealing with, what if about are things over which we have absolutely no control, and all we're doing is building up our own internal Sears, and we need to learn to get away from that. If we could just learn to focus on the things that we have control over and not worry about the rest. And of course, people will say, Well, but, but all this stuff is going on we gotta worry about. No, you don't. You can be aware of it without worrying about it. You can be aware of it without it interfering with your life. But you have control over that, but there are so many things in your life that you don't have control over. And my, my premier example of that, of course, is the World Trade Center. I am not convinced that all of the government departments working together would have been able to figure out what was happening and stop the attacks from half from occurring. But the result of that is, of course, that we had no control over the events occurring. What we absolutely have total control over is how we individually choose to deal with those events and how we choose to move forward.   Tabatha Jones ** 37:36 Yeah, absolutely, oh my gosh, it's so powerful and so true. And I'd say too with dogs is they don't let that little thing that bothered them four hours ago eat them up, or four days ago or four months ago. They don't generally hold a grudge unless something was pretty atrocious, where we will ruminate on a story or a conversation over and over and over again, sometimes it's just solved by a simple Hey, what did you mean when you said that? Or we'll just go and keep thinking about it and keep thinking about it. Dogs moved on. They're like, I've already had my snack in my walk, like we're good again. There's no grudge, there's no past concern, or I made a mistake this day. I'm never gonna cross that line again, because, you know, I did this thing, but humans are so are just wired so differently, just from, I'm sure, our life lessons and all the things that we've been through. But if we could live a little more like a dog, that would be kind of amazing. That guide dogs specifically,   Michael Hingson ** 38:35 I agree. And you know, the reality is that dogs do make mistakes, and one of the things that we learned to put it in terms of what we're talking about today, one of the things that we learn as guide dog handlers is how to give appropriate feedback, and that process has changed over the years, so now it's a much more positive process. We don't tend to yell at dogs, we don't tend to try to give sharp leash corrections, but rather, when they do it right, that's the time to truly reinforce it and say, what a good job you did it. And if you're training a dog to do a new thing or give them a new skill, reinforcing the time that they succeed is so much more powerful than ever saying you didn't do that right? And I think that's as true for humans as it is for dogs, but humans just don't tend to for all the reasons that you said, Trust like, like, maybe they should, but we always think that everybody has a hidden agenda, which is unfortunate, because we don't always necessarily have a hidden agenda. And even if we do, and if you feel like you can't trust me because you think I have a hidden agenda, you can always ask me about it, or you should, and that's something we just tend not to feel that much that we can do, because those aren't skills that we're taught when we're growing up.   Tabatha Jones ** 39:56 Yeah, it's very true, and you. Know when you mentioned the mistakes even thinking about that from a leadership perspective. When I first started leading in my last team, we had reorganized into a corporate structure, so I had new employees sitting across 40 some odd states. It was a big a big reorg, and I would be talking to people about different things. And I said, Well, why did you, you know, why did you do it this way? Oh, well, I realized I made a mistake, so I didn't want to get in trouble. So I thought if I went and I did this, then that would I'm like, wait a minute, stop. Let's let's pause, let's go back to get in trouble. Tell me about that. And I would hear, and I heard it from multiple people across the team that there was such a level of fear over making a mistake. And I said, you know, you're not coming to work with somebody's heart transplant in an ice chest, like, if you make a mistake, nobody's gonna die. Yeah, somebody's gonna get a little maybe mad because we're gonna hit a little bit of a revenue hiccup, or maybe have to send an apology notice to some customers that have a mistake on their bill. But nothing's that big that we can't learn from it, fix it correctly and make sure it doesn't happen again. And that was a huge shift, and that's something you know, where a dog will make a mistake they get through the correction to your point, positive reinforcement. We've got jerky treats, kind of redirect. If people only could take a jerky treat, that'd be great, but they don't. But you know, when a mistake happens, teaching people, teaching our kids, like it's okay to make a mistake, but let's talk about what we learned from it. Make a plan to do better, and figure out how we just don't let that happen again, and then if it happens again, okay, let's have a different conversation. What? What did you notice? Did we miss something in the process? Less last time? Let's fix that, and then let's take the next steps forward, and let's go back and present to the team how we can improve this process and what we've learned from this mistake, like we can make it positive and as leaders, we can help our employees go faster. We can help our dogs learn faster. Can help our kids learn faster by just being a leader and managing mistakes correctly.   Michael Hingson ** 42:06 How do we get that process kind of more into the mainstream of society? How do we get people to recognize that it's okay when you make a mistake, we'll fix it and really give them and teach people to give the positive reinforcement that we need to do. Because I think it's, it's very true. We don't teach it.   Tabatha Jones ** 42:27 We don't teach it. I feel like younger parents that I'm seeing, in some ways, are getting there, you know, I remember back in the day when we would accidentally break something, or, you know, be roughhousing a little, and the glass would get knocked off the counter, and it was a huge thing, right? You're going to clean it up. You're going to go to your room. You're going to stop playing around in the house. And, you know, with my son, I know when He would break something and be like, Hey, let's clean this up. I need you to be more careful. You know, it's not you need to go sit in your room. You made a mistake. It's okay. And I see the difference in myself. Still, when I make a mistake, I beat myself up when he makes a mistake, he cleans it up and moves forward. So it's definitely happening through parenting and the way that we handle it as parents. We have that great opportunity as leaders once adults are full grown and in the workforce and still have those tendencies of fear and oh my gosh, I need to cover it up, teaching them, I had a situation where I made a mistake, shocking. I know I made a mistake, just kidding. I do it all the time, but I had made a mistake with some data that I collected from my team, I'd had individual skip level meetings, and decided kept all the notes in a spreadsheet, and I had told the team as I spoke with them. Whatever you tell me, it's in confidence. I'm taking themes of the conversation and I'll present it back to your leaders. They're not going to have names. We're not going to know who said what. That's not what this is about. It's about me helping drive improvements through my leadership team so that it's better for you. And they were really open, and it was amazing. It was such a gift to have that trust from the team. Well, I went and took my compilations, put all my notes together on a spreadsheet, sent it to my leadership team, and never took off the original notes. And I was like, shoot, now, what do I do? So I asked a peer. I said, Hey, this is what I did. What would you do? And she said, Well, I would tell my leaders, they need to be leaders, and they need to keep it confidential. And I was like, oh, not good enough. I'm not doing that. So I thought about it, yeah. And I said, You know what? This is a teachable moment. This is the opportunity I've been given to practice what I preach. So I pulled my entire team, 50 some odd people on the phone, on a teams call. So we were on camera, and I said, I need to talk to you about something. And I said, I made a mistake, and because of that mistake, I have let you down, and I've broken my word. And I explained what I did. I explained, you know, I got really excited by the information, because I saw things we could do, which then led me to moving way too fast, and I completely sent your comment. Comments with your names to your leaders, and I apologize. And going forward, when I take data and information from you, I will be learning from this mistake. I will keep two separate spreadsheets. I will not be, you know, just adding to the individual spreadsheet, I will quality control, check it before I send it out, and I will make sure that I do better. And I just ask that you forget me. On this one, I got so many texts and emails and instant messages that just said, Thank you so much, and someone that said, thank you, it helps to see that a leader owned up to a mistake, and I'm like, that's that was a teachable moment so nobody died. I didn't lose a heart. I broke a little confidence and a little trust. But we can fix things, and that's how,   Michael Hingson ** 45:46 yeah, and, and that makes a lot of sense, and we, we just tend to, oftentimes do knee jerk reactions. I was sitting here thinking about sometime after we moved to New Jersey in 1996 my wife and I were in our living room, and I don't remember what was going on. We were having a great time, and we each had, each had a glass of champagne, and my fourth guide dog, Lenny, was with us. And Lenny, like any good lab has a tail that never stops. And Karen, I think it was Karen, I don't even remember, sure. I think it was. Had put her glass down on the coffee table, and tail hit glass, glass, which was crystal, went all over floor, hardwood floor, you know, and I can think of so many people who would blame the dog. And actually, I think Lenny blamed herself for a little while, and we kept saying it wasn't your fault we screwed up. And eventually, you know, she well within, within an hour, she was mostly Okay, but, but the bottom line is that she, she, she knew that something happened, but it wasn't her fault, and it is important to own up to to things and and as I said, I think it was Karen, because I think Karen said I should never have put my glass down, or I should have put it back further away from her tail, because she was So excited. You know those   Tabatha Jones ** 47:21 tails, lab tails are crazy things, yeah, oh my gosh, right, but Lenny didn't stop wagging her tail because of that little mistake, right? It's something that Karen was able to own up to. You two were able to clean it up, and then Lenny was able to go on and keep wagging her tail. Everyone's being more careful. Now,   Michael Hingson ** 47:39 what's really funny is that, because it was a hardwood floor and crystal, there were her pieces that we found days later, but   Tabatha Jones ** 47:47 really years later, oh my gosh. But   Michael Hingson ** 47:50 you know what Lenny was? Was, was a cutie, and Lenny was the, probably the most empathetic dog that I've ever had. We had a pastor, and we had who we had come to know, and we were at a party, and she was at this party, and she came up to us and she said, we let Lenny visit everybody, but we just let her loose. Um, Lenny is the most empathetic dog I've ever seen, because you let her loose. And she went to the person who was feeling the most pain first, and then she worked the rest of the room, and we're talking emotional pain, but Lenny could sense that and and she did. She went to the person who was hurting the most for whatever reason. And then after she felt she had done all she could with that person, then she went around to the rest of the room. Oh, what a wonderful experience that was. Yeah, I know, and we hadn't noticed it, but sharee told it to us, and we we realized it from then on, yeah, she's right. I   Tabatha Jones ** 48:52 always think that the companies that allow people to bring their dogs to work are probably the companies that have the highest performance and productivity. I can't prove this yet, but there is something about having a warm, fuzzy little Snuggler with a cold nose right next to you that makes such a difference. Yeah, like I said, you know, mine's by me all the time, but they're just so intuitive. They pick up on your moods. They pick up on what's going on when you've had a bad day, you know, when you're feeling unconfident. I've worked with people a lot on helping them build confidence. And she'll even come around like, Hey, why you down? Like, what's going on? Let's go play. Go play. And then, you know, they're always so excited when you just do the smallest things. It's like, you know what? All right, I am making somebody, somebody happy today. It's just not that, maybe that other person, or whatever it is. But, yeah, oh my gosh. What made   Michael Hingson ** 49:40 you decide? What Madeline just caused you to decide to go from working for other companies in the corporate world to starting your own coaching career full time.   Tabatha Jones ** 49:52 You know, I just love the coaching aspect, helping people who struggle to speak up for themselves or who. Struggle to recognize the value that they bring to the workplace or to the world in general, just really lights my fire. I work mostly with women in their 50s, mostly with women who are already leaders but feel a bit stuck, and help them just remember who they are. Help them remember you know you are a leader. This is how you can set yourself apart, and this is how we can start preparing for your next promotion. I wrote my book promotion ready in three months, the Women's Guide to career advancement, which was released in August. Just because the concerns were so similar, I thought, you know, I'm going to put these specific the specific framework together in a book so that women who maybe don't have time for coaching right now, or they don't have the means, for whatever reason, they can get that framework in this book and get started on setting themselves apart and rebuilding that confidence. And I just love it. I feel like we tend to play really small, especially after a simple mistake or a simple breach of trust or a simple someone said something, and it just really stuck in our head for whatever reason. So I want women to stop. I want them to start feeling more empowered and start going after those things that they want. Because I don't know if you've seen the movie The longest game. But one of the quotes is the, you know, the field isn't the golfing green. The field is the five inches between your ears. And that's life. It is a fact. It is whatever is going on in that space between your ears is what's going to tell you you can and it's going to tell you what you can't do. So we want to only five inches. They say five inches. I haven't actually measured mine either. I say it and I touch it every time, because I'm like, I don't know if it's really five inches. Maybe it's, maybe it's four and a half. I don't know. I've always prided myself on having, you know, a skinny forehead.   Michael Hingson ** 51:57 Well, you know, but, but it's interesting and and, of course, sort of on principle, just for fun. I'll ask, do you ever find that that men read it or that that you coach men as well? Do you find that there are men that will benefit, or choose to benefit from the same things that you're talking about with most women? Absolutely,   Tabatha Jones ** 52:15 I say I work mostly with women and a few lucky men, because there are men who don't feel as confident or who might be a little bit more of that quieter later, and the strategies in there are obvious. Is probably not the right word. But there are things that are really simple and easy to do, but so often overlooked. So for anyone who finds themselves really kind of hiding behind the keyboard, not getting out and about and working on their visibility and relationship building. There are a lot of great strategies for that. The worst thing to do is wait until the promotion opportunity posts to start getting out there and building your brand. It doesn't serve anyone, and it's going to keep you behind. So, yeah, absolutely, that's a great question. If you   Michael Hingson ** 53:05 want to be noticed, then you have to work at what you need to do to be noticed. And that is a an important skill to learn. And it is all about brand, which doesn't mean you're trying to be so calculating that you're trying to do in other people, it is all about doing the things that you need to do, both to learn and to be able to advance in a positive way.   Tabatha Jones ** 53:30 Yeah, exactly. And there are strategies just for even man, even managing your time, because that's so obvious to some of us who have been there, but to others, they'll allow their calendar to be blocked from 7am to 7pm with everyone else's priorities, and it's important to make yourself a priority so that you can start standing out before the job posts. And that's kind of the secret sauce. A lot of people, like I said, they wait until the job posts and they've just been working hard and then can't figure out why they're not getting ahead. So we want to start doing things, taking action every day before that position posts, one   Michael Hingson ** 54:09 of the things that that I do is on my calendar page, I have time blocked out every day and and people will say, Well, I want to schedule something, but this time isn't available, and this is the only time that I can do it. And what I tell people is I have the time blocked out so that I can do the things that I need to do or that I might want to do. And one of them is responding positively to the fact that you need a certain time to meet, and that time is in one of my block times, but I block times so that I have free time to do what needs to be done. So let's schedule it, and, you know, and I, and I find that that works really well, because it gives me the time to make choices and do the things that I want to do. And I think it's so important to be able to do that. So.   Tabatha Jones ** 55:00 Yeah, the calendar is key. I always say your calendar equals clarity equals confidence. I mean, it just it builds that confidence. What I see happen a lot in the corporate space is the calendar gets booked for again, everybody else's priorities, 7am to 7pm I will see someone sitting in a meeting, totally disengaged. And when I would say, What are you doing? And I ask clients now too, so how do you prepare for this meeting? Because almost always the answer is, oh, I have a big meeting coming up in a couple of hours, and I'm not ready yet. Like, well, why are you in this meeting? If that meeting matters so much, why are you here? Because you're hurting your brand here, looking disengaged, asking, Can you repeat that 72 times where you could have just sent a delegate, or you could have blocked that time to think and prepare, which is so important, the calendar blocks. I don't think I could live without them. They're critical, right? That's how we get things done. That's how we make sure we're focused on the right things. That's how I prepare for clients. I don't just get on and wing it, because that's not going to go well, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 56:02 and that's why on, on unstoppable mindset. I asked people to send me some things because I want to appropriately prepare, because if, if I'm doing my job right, I learn all I can to be able to be involved in an intelligent conversation, and people have so many skills that I haven't learned or don't have, I get to use the information that they send to prepare and learn about some of those skills, which is part of why I say if I'm not learning at least as much as anyone else who is listening To the podcast, and I'm not doing my job right? Because it's so much fun to be able to explore and talk with people, and it's and it is so much fun. So I I appreciate exactly what you're saying. Well,   Tabatha Jones ** 56:53 thank you. Yeah, it's, it's a, I mean, tooting my own horn a little bit. It's a great book full of strategy. And if you just took it, take it and start implementing those small changes, you'll see a huge difference. And I say that you'll see it, but not only you, your leader will see and your team will see that you're making changes and and making a difference. So yeah, it's just that calendar is so helpful.   Michael Hingson ** 57:16 Life is is an adventure, as far as I'm concerned. And if we're not always learning we're not doing our job right exactly which is so important? Well, do you have any kind of last thoughts of things that you want people to to think about, as far as leadership or as far as moving forward in the corporate world, or or any of those kinds of things? Yeah,   Tabatha Jones ** 57:40 absolutely. And thank you so much for asking. I do want to tie it back to unstoppable mindset, because you are absolutely unstoppable. It's a matter of clearing those blocks, the things that are in your way, the things that are in that five inches, or whatever it really is between your ears that is getting in the way and telling you you can't do something. And I encourage you if you're struggling, if you want to get ahead, if you've had some bad experiences when trying to get ahead, connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find me at Tabitha Jones and D, H, A Jones, thank you. Yes, all A's, Tabata, Tabatha. You can call me what you want. Just spell it right so you can find me. But absolutely connect with me there, and let's talk about what's going on and see how we can help you start moving forward again. Absolutely, we'll share strategies to give at least a little bit of a boost and kind of start relieving some of the discomfort that may be going on, but kind of back to that point you are completely unstoppable. It's just about investing in yourself, and that may look like time, energy or financially, just to get yourself out of, out of where you're at and into that next thing.   Michael Hingson ** 58:52 What's your website? You must I assume you have a website. I   Tabatha Jones ** 58:55 do have a website. It is empowered. Dash leader.com, and if you go out there, I actually have a free gift. I've recently published an ebook which is a career confidence playbook for women over 50, and that also has some great strategies, as well as workbook and journaling pages to help you really flesh out those goals and start taking those small action steps,   Michael Hingson ** 59:21 and guys, the concepts are the same. So don't think it's just for women. Otherwise, learn nearly as much on this podcast as you   Tabatha Jones ** 59:29 should. That is true. That's very true. The color is a little purple and black. Don't let that send you anywhere. Just it's perfect. Come on in. Let's talk   Michael Hingson ** 59:39 colors. Don't bother me.   59:42 Outstanding.   Michael Hingson ** 59:44 Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been really fun. I knew it was going to be, and it was every bit as fun and and informative as as I thought it would be. So I hope people will reach out to you on LinkedIn and go off and. Uh, go to the website as well. Get your free ebook. I'm going to go get it and and I really think that you've offered a lot of good insights that will be helpful for people. I hope all of you listening and watching out there agree. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please email me. Let me know what you think of our episode today. You can email me at Michael M, I C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S,

Have you or do you feel stress? What is stress and how can we deal with it? Our guest this time is Rachelle Stone who discusses those very questions with us. Rachelle grew up in a very small town in Massachusetts. After attending community college, she had an opportunity to study and work at Disney World in Florida and has never looked back.   Rachelle loved her Disney work and entered the hospitality industry spending much of 27 years working for or running her own destination management company. She will describe how one day after a successful career, at the age of 48, she suffered what today we know as burnout. She didn't know how to describe her feelings at the time, but she will tell us how she eventually discovered what was going on with her.   She began to explore and then study the profession of coaching. Rachelle will tell us about coaches and clients and how what coaches do can help change lives in so many ways.   This episode is full of the kind of thoughts and ideas we all experience as well as insights on how we can move forward when our mindsets are keeping us from moving forward. Rachelle has a down-to-Earth way of explaining what she wants to say that we all can appreciate.       About the Guest:   “As your leadership consultant, I will help you hone your leadership, so you are ready for your next career move. As your executive coach, I will partner with you to overcome challenges and obstacles so you can execute your goals.”     Hi, I'm Rachelle. I spent over 25 years as an entrepreneur and leader in the Special Event industry in Miami, building, flipping, and selling Destination Management Companies (DMCs).  While I loved and thrived in the excitement and chaos of the industry, I still managed to hit a level of burnout that was wholly unexpected and unacceptable to me, resulting in early retirement at 48.   Now, as a trained Leadership Consultant and Executive Coach, I've made it my mission to combine this hard-won wisdom and experience to crack the code on burnout and balance for others so they can continue to thrive in careers they love. I am Brené Brown Dare to Lead ™ trained, a Certified Positive Intelligence ® Mental Fitness coach, and an accredited Professional Certified Coach by the ICF (International Coaching Federation, the most recognized global accreditation body in the coaching industry).   I continue to grow my expertise and show my commitment to the next generation of coaches by serving on the ICF-Central Florida chapter board of directors. I am serving as President-Elect and Chapter Liaison to the global organization. I also support those new to the coaching industry by mentoring other coaches to obtain advanced coaching credentials.   I maintain my well-being by practicing Pilates & Pvolve ® a few days a week, taking daily walks, loving on my Pug, Max, and making time for beach walks when possible.   Ways to connect Rachel:   www.rstoneconsulting.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/rstoneconsulting/ Instagram: @even_wonderwoman_gets_tired   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well, hi and welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity and the unexpected meet. But you know, the more fun thing about it is the unexpected. Unexpected is always a good thing, and unexpected is really anything that doesn't have anything directly to do with inclusion or diversity, which is most of what we get to deal with in the course of the podcast, including with our guest today, Rachelle Stone, who worked in the hospitality industry in a variety of ways during a lot of her life, and then switched to being a coach and a leadership expert. And I am fascinated to learn about that and what what brought her to that? And we'll get to that at some point in the course of the day. But Rachelle, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Thank   Rachelle Stone ** 02:08 you, Michael. I'm honored to be here. Excited to be talking to you today.   Michael Hingson ** 02:12 Well, it's a lot of fun now. You're in Florida. I am. I'm in the Clearwater   Rachelle Stone ** 02:16 Dunedin area. I like to say I live in Dunedin, Florida without the zip code.   Michael Hingson ** 02:22 Yeah. Well, I hear you, you know, then makes it harder to find you that way, right?   Rachelle Stone ** 02:28 Physically. Yeah, right, exactly. Danita, without the zip code, we'll stick with that. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 02:33 yeah, that works. Well, I'm really glad you're here. Why don't we start by maybe you talking to us a little bit about the early Rachelle growing up and some of that stuff.   Rachelle Stone ** 02:43 Yeah, I was lucky. I grew up in rural Western Massachusetts, little po doc town called Greenfield, Massachusetts. We were 18 miles from the Vermont border, which was literally a mile and a half from the New Hampshire border. So I grew up in this very interesting area where it was like a tri state area, and our idea of fun growing up, well, it was, we were always outdoors, playing very much outdoors. I had three siblings, and I was the youngest, and it was one of those childhoods where you came home from school, and mom would say, go outside, don't come back in the house until you hear the whistle. And every house on the street, every mother had a whistle. There were only seven houses because there was a Boy Scout camp at the end of the road. So as the sun was setting and the street lights would come on, you would hear different whistles, and different family kids would be going home the stone kids up, that's your mom. Go home, see you next time that was it was great. And you know, as I got older and more adventurous, it was cow tipping and keg parties and behind and all sorts of things that we probably shouldn't have been doing in our later teen years, but it was fun. Behind   Michael Hingson ** 04:04 is it's four wheeling,   Rachelle Stone ** 04:08 going up rough terrain. We had these. It was very, very hilly, where I was lot of lot of small mountains that you could conquer.   Michael Hingson ** 04:17 So in the winter, does that mean you got to do some fun things, like sledding in the snow. Yeah, yeah.   Rachelle Stone ** 04:24 We had a great hill in the back of our yard, so I learned to ski in my own backyard, and we had three acres of woods, so we would go snowshoeing. We were also close to a private school called Northfield Mount Hermon, which had beautiful, beautiful grounds, and in the winter, we would go cross country skiing there. So again, year round, we were, we were outdoors a lot.   Michael Hingson ** 04:52 Well, my time in Massachusetts was three years living in Winthrop so I was basically East Boston. Yeah. Yes and and very much enjoyed it. Loved the environment. I've been all over Massachusetts in one way or another, so I'm familiar with where you were. I am, and I will admit, although the winters were were cold, that wasn't as much a bother as it was when the snow turned to ice or started to melt, and then that night it froze. That got to be pretty slippery,   05:25 very dangerous, very dangerous.   Michael Hingson ** 05:29 I then experienced it again later, when we lived in New Jersey and and I actually our house to take the dogs out. We had no fenced yards, so I had to take them out on leash, and I would go down to our basement and go out and walk out basement onto a small deck or patio, actually, and then I had to go down a hill to take the dogs where they could go do their business. And I remember the last year we were in New Jersey, it snowed in May, and the snow started to melt the next day, and then that night, it froze, and it and it stayed that way for like about a day and a half. And so it was as slick as glass is. Glass could be. So eventually I couldn't I could go down a hill, it was very dangerous, but going back up a hill to come back in the house was not safe. So eventually, I just used a very long flex leash that was like 20 feet long, and I sent the dogs down the hill. I stayed at the top.   Rachelle Stone ** 06:33 Was smart, wow. And they didn't mind. They just wanted to go do their business, and they wanted to get back in the house too. It's cold, yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 06:41 They didn't seem to be always in an incredible hurry to come back into the house. But they had no problem coming up the hill. That's the the advantage of having claws,   Rachelle Stone ** 06:51 yes. Pause, yeah, four of them to boot, right? Yeah, which   Michael Hingson ** 06:54 really helped a great deal. But, you know, I remember it. I love it. I loved it. Then now I live in in a place in California where we're on what's called the high desert, so it doesn't get as cold, and we get hardly any of the precipitation that even some of the surrounding areas do, from Los Angeles and Long Beach and so on to on the one side, up in the mountains where the Snow is for the ski resorts on the other so Los Angeles can have, or parts of La can have three or four inches of rain, and we might get a half inch.   Rachelle Stone ** 07:28 Wow. So it stays relatively dry. Do you? Do you ever have to deal like down here, we have something called black ice, which we get on the road when it rains after it hasn't rained in a long time? Do you get that there in California,   Michael Hingson ** 07:41 there are places, yeah, not here where I live, because it generally doesn't get cold enough. It can. It's already this well, in 2023 late 2023 we got down to 24 degrees one night, and it can get a little bit colder, but generally we're above freezing. So, no, we don't get the black ice here that other places around us can and do. Got it. Got it. So you had I obviously a fun, what you regard as a fun childhood.   Rachelle Stone ** 08:14 Yeah, I remember the first day I walked into I went to a community college, and I it was a very last minute, impulsive, spontaneous decision. Wow, that kind of plays into the rest of my life too. I make very quick decisions, and I decided I wanted to go to college, and it was open enrollment. I went down to the school, and they asked me, What do you want to study? I'm like, I don't know. I just know I want to have fun. So they said, you might want to explore Recreation and Leisure Services. So that's what I wound up going to school for. And I like to say I have a degree in fun and games.   Michael Hingson ** 08:47 There you go. Yeah. Did you go beyond community college or community college enough?   Rachelle Stone ** 08:53 Yeah, that was so I transferred. It took me four years to get a two year degree. And the reason was, I was working full time, I moved out. I just at 17, I wanted to be on my own, and just moved into an apartment with three other people and went to college and worked. It was a fabulous way to live. It was wonderful. But then when I transferred to the University, I felt like I was a bit bored, because I think the other students were, I was dealing with a lot of students coming in for the first time, where I had already been in school for four years, in college for four years, so the experience wasn't what I was looking for. I wanted the education. And I saw a poster, and it was Mickey Mouse on the poster, and it was Walt Disney World College program now accepting applications. So I wrote down the phone number, email, whatever it was, and and I applied. I got an interview again. Remember Michael? I was really bored. I was going to school. It was my first semester in my four year program, and I just anyway. I got a call back and. And I was accepted into the Disney College Program. So, um, they at that time, they only took about 800 students a year. So it was back in 1989 long time ago. And I was thrilled. I left Massachusetts on january 31 1989 in the blizzard of 89 Yeah, and I drove down to Orlando, Florida, and I never left. I'm still here in Florida. That was the beginning of my entire career. Was applying for the Disney College Program.   Michael Hingson ** 10:36 So what was that like, being there at the Disney College, pro nominal, phenomenal. I have to ask one thing, did you have to go through some sort of operation to get rid of your Massachusetts accent? Does   Rachelle Stone ** 10:50 it sound like it worked? No, I didn't have well, it was funny, because I was hoping I would be cast as Minnie Mouse. I'm four foot 10. I have learned that to be Mini or Mickey Mouse, you have to be four, eight or shorter. So I missed many by two inches. My second choice was being a lifeguard, and I wound up what I they offered me was Epcot parking lot, and I loved it, believe it or not, helping to park cars at Epcot Center. I still remember my spiel to the letter that I used to give because there was a live person on the back of the tram speaking and then another one at the front of the tram driving it to get you from the parking lot to the front entrance of the gate. But the whole experience was amazing. It was I attended classes, I earned my Master's degree. I picked up a second and third job because I wanted to get into hotels, and so I worked one day a week at the Disney Inn, which is now their military resorts. And then I took that third job, was as a contractor for a recreation management company. So I was working in the field that I had my associates in. I was working at a hotel one day a week, just because I wanted to learn about hotels. I thought that was the industry I wanted to go into. And I was I was driving the tram and spieling on the back of the tram five days a week. I loved it was phenomenal.   Michael Hingson ** 12:20 I have a friend who is blind who just retired from, I don't know, 20 or 25 years at Disneyland, working a lot in the reservation centers and and so on. And speaks very highly of, of course, all the experiences of being involved with Disney.   Rachelle Stone ** 12:38 Yeah, it's really, I'm It was a wonderful experience. I think it gave me a great foundation for the work in hospitality that I did following. It was a great i i think it made me a better leader, better hospitality person for it well,   Michael Hingson ** 12:57 and there is an art to doing it. It isn't just something where you can arbitrarily decide, I'm going to be a successful and great hospitality person, and then do it if you don't learn how to relate to people, if you don't learn how to talk to people, and if you're not having fun doing it   Rachelle Stone ** 13:14 exactly. Yes, Fun. Fun is everything. It's   Michael Hingson ** 13:18 sort of like this podcast I love to tell people now that the only hard and fast rule about the podcast is we both have to have fun, or it's not worth doing.   Rachelle Stone ** 13:25 That's right. I'm right there with you. Gotta Have fun,   Michael Hingson ** 13:30 yeah? Well, so you So, how long were you with Disney? What made you switched? Oh, so   Rachelle Stone ** 13:36 Disney College Program. It was, at that time, it was called the Magic Kingdom college program, MK, CP, and it's grown quite significantly. I think they have five or 7000 students from around the world now, but at that time it was just a one semester program. I think for international students, it's a one year program. So when my three and a half months were up. My semester, I could either go back. I was supposed to go back to school back in Massachusetts, but the recreation management company I was working for offered me a full time position, so I wound up staying. I stayed in Orlando for almost three and a half years, and ultimately I wound up moving to South Florida and getting a role, a new role, with a different sort of company called a destination management company. And that was that was really the onset destination management was my career for 27 years. 26   Michael Hingson ** 14:38 years. So what is a destination management company. So   Rachelle Stone ** 14:41 a destination management company is, they are the company that receives a group into a destination, meetings, conventions, events. So for instance, let's say, let's say Fathom note taker. Wants to have an in person meeting, and they're going to hold it at the Lowe's Miami Beach, and they're bringing in 400 of their top clients, and and and sales people and operations people. They need someone on the receiving end to pick everybody up at the airport, to put together the theme parties, provide the private tours and excursions. Do the exciting restaurant, Dine Around the entertainment, the amenities. So I did all the fun. And again, sticking with the fun theme here, yeah, I did all of the auxiliary meeting fun add ons in the destination that what you would do. And I would say I did about 175 to 225, meetings a year.   Michael Hingson ** 15:44 So you didn't actually book the meetings, or go out and solicit to book the meetings. You were the person who took over. Once a meeting was arranged,   Rachelle Stone ** 15:53 once a meeting was booked in the destination, right? If they needed a company like mine, then it would be then I would work with them. If I would be the company. There were several companies I did what I do, especially in Miami, because Miami was a top tier destination, so a client may book the lows Miami Beach and then reach out to two to three different DMCs to learn how can they partner with them to make the meeting the most successful. So it was always a competitive situation. And it was always, you know, needing to do our best and give our best and be creative and out of the box. And, yeah, it was, it was an exciting industry. So what makes   Michael Hingson ** 16:41 the best destination management company, or what makes you very successful? Why would people view you as successful at at what you do, and why they would want to choose you to be the company to work with? Because obviously, as you said, it's competitive.   Rachelle Stone ** 16:59 Everybody well, and there's choice. Everybody has choice. I always believed there was enough business to go around for everybody. Very good friends with some of my my hardiest competitors. Interestingly, you know, although we're competing, it's a very friendly industry. We all network together. We all dance in the same network. You know, if we're going to an industry network, we're all together. What? Why would somebody choose me over somebody else? Was really always a decision. It was sometimes it was creativity. Sometimes it was just a feeling for them. They felt the relationship just felt more authentic. Other times it was they they just really needed a cut and dry service. It just every client was always different. There were never two programs the same. I might have somebody just wanting to book a flamenco guitarist for three hours, and that's all they need. And another group may need. The transportation, the tours, the entertainment, the theme parties, the amenities, the whole ball of Fox, every group was different, which is, I think, what made it so exciting, it's that relationship building, I think, more than anything. Because these companies are doing meetings all over the country, sometimes some of them all over the world. So relationships were really, really important to them to be able to go into a destination and say to their partner in that destination, hey, I'm going to be there next May. This is what I need. Are you available? Can you help? So I think on the initial front end, it is, when it's a competitive bid, you're starting from scratch to build a relationship. Once that's relationship is established, it is easier to build on that relationship when things go wrong. Let's talk about what worked, what didn't, and how we can do better next time, instead of throwing the entire relationship out with the bathwater and starting from scratch again. So it was a great industry. I loved it, and   Michael Hingson ** 19:00 obviously you must have been pretty successful at it.   Rachelle Stone ** 19:04 I was, I was lucky. Well, luck and skill, I have to give myself credit there too. I worked for other DMCs. I worked for event companies that wanted to expand into the DMC industry. And I helped, I helped them build that corporate division, or that DMC division. I owned my own agency for, I think, 14 years, still alive and thriving. And then I worked for angel investors, helping them flip and underperforming. It was actually a franchise. It was an office franchise of a global DMC at the time. So I've had success in different areas of Destination Management, and I was lucky in that I believe in accreditation and certification. That's important to me. Credibility matters. And so I. Involved in the association called the association of Destination Management executives international admei I know it's a mouthful, but I wound up serving on their board of directors and their certification and accreditation board for 14 years, throughout my career, and on the cab their certification accreditation board, my company was one of the first companies in the country to become a certified company, admc certified. I was so proud of that, and I had all of my staff. I paid for all of them to earn their certification, which was a destination management Certified Professional. That's the designation. I loved, that we could be a part of it. And I helped write a course, a university level course, and it was only nine weeks, so half a semester in teaching students what destination management is that took me three years. It was a passion project with a couple of other board members on the cab that we put together, and really glad to be a part of that and contributing to writing the book best practices in destination management, first and second edition. So I feel lucky that I was in this field at a time where it was really growing deeper roots. It had been transport the industry. When I went into it was maybe 20 years young, and when I left it, it been around for 40 plus years. So it's kind of exciting. So you so you   Michael Hingson ** 21:41 said that you started a company and you were with it for 4014 years, or you ran it for 14 years, and you said, it's still around. Are you involved with it at all? Now, I   Rachelle Stone ** 21:51 am not. I did a buyout with the I had two partners at the time. And without going into too much detail, there were some things going on that I felt were I could not align with. I felt it was unethical. I felt it was immoral, and I struggled for a year to make the decision. I spoke to a therapist, and I ultimately consulted an attorney, and I did a buyout, and I walked away from my this was my legacy. This was my baby. I built it from scratch. I was the face of the company. So to give that up my legacy, it was a really tough decision, but it really did come full circle, because late last year, something happened which brought me back to that decision, and I can, with 100% certainty, say it was a values driven decision for me, and I'm so happy I made that decision. So I am today. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 22:57 and, and let's, let's get to that a little bit so you at some point, you said that you had burnout and you left the industry. Why did you do that?   Rachelle Stone ** 23:08 So after I did, sold my my business, I worked for angel investors for about three and a half years. They brought me in. This was an underperforming office that the franchisee, because they had owned it for 10 years, had done a buyout themselves and sold it back to the angel investors or the private equity so they brought me in to run the office and bring it from surviving to thriving again. And it took me about 18 months, and I brought it from under a million to over 5.3 million in 18 months. So it's quite successful. And I had said to the owners, as they're thanking me and rewarding me, and it was a great first two years, I had said to them, please don't expect this again. This was a fluke. People were following me. There was a lot of curiosity in the industry, because this was a really big move for me to sell my company and then go work for this one. It was big news. So it was a great time. But the expectation for me to repeat, rinse and repeat, that kind of productivity was not realistic. It just wasn't realistic. And about a year and a half later, I just, I was driving from the Lowe's Miami Beach. It's funny, because I used that as an example before, to the breakers in Palm Beach. And if you know South Florida at all, it's, it's, you're taking your life in your hands every time you get on 95 it's a nightmare. Anyway, so I'm driving from the lows to the breakers, and I just left a kind of a rough meeting. I don't even remember what it was anymore, because that was back in 2014 and I'm driving to another meeting at the breakers, and I hang up the phone with somebody my. Son calls about something, Mom, this is going on for graduation. Can you be there? And I'm realizing I'm going to be out of town yet again for work, and I'm driving to the breakers, and I'm having this I just had this vision of myself in the middle of 95 slamming the brakes on in my car, coming to a full stop in the middle of the highway. I did not do this this, and I don't recommend you do this. And I opened up my car door, and I literally just walked away from my car. That was the image in my mind. And in that moment, I knew it was time for me to leave. I had gone as high as I could go. I'd done as much as I could do. I'd served on boards, contributed to books, spoken on panels. I wanted to go back to being an entrepreneur. I didn't want to work for angel investors anymore. I wanted to work for myself. I wanted to build something new, and I didn't want to do it in the DMC world. So I went home that night thinking I was going to just resign. Instead, I wrote a letter of retirement, and I retired from the industry, I walked away two and a half weeks later, and I said I was never going to return.   Michael Hingson ** 26:09 And so I burnt out, though at the time, what? What eventually made you realize that it was all burnt out, or a lot of it was burnt out. So I   Rachelle Stone ** 26:17 didn't know anything about burnout at that time. I just knew I was incredibly frustrated. I was bored. I was over in competence, and I just wanted out. Was just done. I had done well enough in my industry that I could take a little time. I had a lot of people asking me to take on consulting projects. So I did. I started doing some consulting in hospitality. And while I was doing that, I was kind of peeling away the layers of the onion, saying, What do I want to do next? I did not want to do DMC. That's all I knew. So I started this exploration, and what came out of it was an interest in exploring the field of coaching. So I did some research. I went to the coachingfederation.org which is the ICF International coaching Federation, is the leading accreditation body for coaches in the world. And through them, I researched Who were some of the accredited schools. I narrowed it down. I finally settled on one, and I said, I'm going to sign up for one course. I just want to see what this coaching is all about. So I signed up for a foundations course with the with the school out of Pennsylvania, and probably about three weeks into the course, the professor said something which was like a light bulb moment for me, and that I realized like, oh my   Speaker 1 ** 27:40 god, I burnt out. And I was literally, at this   Rachelle Stone ** 27:46 time, we're in school, we're on the phone. It was not zoom. We didn't have all this yet. It was you were on the phone, and then you were pulling up documents on your computer so the teacher couldn't see me crying. I was just sobbing, knowing that this is i i was so I was I was stunned. I didn't say anything. I sat on this for a while. In fact, I sat on it. I started researching it, but I didn't tell anybody for two years. It took me two years before I finally admitted to somebody that I had burnt out. I was so ashamed, embarrassed, humiliated, I was this successful, high over achiever. How could I have possibly burnt out?   Michael Hingson ** 28:34 What? What did the teacher say   Rachelle Stone ** 28:37 it was? I don't even remember what it was, but I remember that shock of realization of wellness, of it was, you know what it was that question, is this all? There is a lot of times when we were they were talking about, I believe, what they were talking about, midlife crisis and what really brings them on. And it is that pivotal question, is this really all there is, is this what I'm meant to be doing? And then in their conversation, I don't even remember the full conversation, it was that recognition of that's what's happened to me. And as I started researching it, this isn't now. This is in 2015 as I'm researching it and learning there's not a lot on it. I mean, there's some, mostly people's experiences that are being shared. Then in 2019 the World Health Organization officially, officially recognizes burnout as a phenomenon, an occupational phenomenon.   Michael Hingson ** 29:38 And how would you define burnout? Burnout is,   Rachelle Stone ** 29:43 is generally defined in three areas. It is. It's the the, oh, I always struggle with it. It's that disconnect, the disconnect, or disassociation from. Um, wanting to succeed, from your commitment to the work. It is the knowing, the belief that no one can do it well or right. It is there. There's that. It's an emotional disconnect from from from caring about what you're doing and how you're showing up, and it shows up in your personal life too, which is the horrible thing, because it your it impacts your family so negatively, it's horrible.   Michael Hingson ** 30:39 And it it, it does take a toll. And it takes, did it take any kind of a physical toll on you?   Rachelle Stone ** 30:45 Well, what I didn't realize when I when I took this time, I was about 25 pounds overweight. I was on about 18 different medications, including all my vitamins. I was taking a lot of vitamins at that time too. Um, I chronic sciatica, insomnia. I was self medicating. I was also going out, eating rich dinners and drinking, um, because you're because of the work I was doing. I had to entertain. That was part of that was part of of my job. So as I was looking at myself, Yes, physically, it turns out that this weight gain, the insomnia, the self medication, are also taught signs of of risk of burnout. It's how we manage our stress, and that's really what it comes down to, that we didn't even know. We don't even know. People don't no one teaches us how to process our stress, and that that's really probably one of the biggest things that I've through, everything that I've studied, and then the pandemic hitting it. No one teaches us how to manage our stress. No one tells us that if we process stress, then the tough stuff isn't as hard anymore. It's more manageable. No one teaches us about how to shift our mindsets so we can look at changing our perspective at things, or only seeing things through our lizard brain instead of our curious brain. These are all things that I had no idea were keeping me I didn't know how to do, and that were part of contributing to my burnout. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 32:43 Is stress more self created, or is it? Is it an actual thing? In other words, when, when there is stress in the world? Is it something that, really, you create out of a fear or cause to happen in some way, and in reality, there are ways to not necessarily be stressful, and maybe that's what you're talking about, as far as learning to control it and process it, well,   Rachelle Stone ** 33:09 there's actually there's stresses. Stressors are external. Stress is internal. So a stressor could be the nagging boss. It could be your kid has a fever and you're going to be late for work, or you're going to miss a meeting because you have to take them to the doctor. That's an external stressor, right? So that external stressor goes away, you know, the traffic breaks up, or your your husband takes the kid to the doctor so you can get to your meeting. Whatever that external stress, or is gone, you still have to deal with the stress that's in your body. Your that stress, that stress builds up. It's it's cortisol, and that's what starts with the physical impact. So those physical symptoms that I was telling you about, that I had, that I didn't know, were part of my burnout. It was unprocessed stress. Now at that time, I couldn't even touch my toes. I wasn't doing any sort of exercise for my body. I wasn't and that is one of the best ways you can process stress. Stress actually has to cycle out of your body. No one tells us that. No one teaches us that. So how do you learn how to do that?   Michael Hingson ** 34:21 Well, of course, that's Go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I was gonna   Rachelle Stone ** 34:24 say it's learning. It's being willing to look internally, what's going on in your body. How are you really getting in touch with your emotions and feelings and and processing them well?   Michael Hingson ** 34:37 And you talk about stressors being external, but you have control. You may not have control directly over the stressor happening, but don't you have control over how you decide to deal with the external stress? Creator,   Rachelle Stone ** 34:55 yes, and that external stress will always. Go away. The deadline will come and go. The sun will still rise tomorrow in set tomorrow night. Stressors always go away, but they're also constantly there. So you've got, for instance, the nagging boss is always going to bring you stress. It's how you process the stress inside. You can choose to ignore the stressor, but then you're setting yourself up for maybe not following through on your job, or doing   Michael Hingson ** 35:29 right. And I wouldn't suggest ignoring the stressor, but you it's processing that   Rachelle Stone ** 35:34 stress in your body. It's not so let's say, at the end of the rough day, the stressors gone. You still, whether you choose to go for a walk or you choose to go home and say, Honey, I just need a really like I need a 62nd full on contact, bear hug from you, because I'm holding a lot of stress in my body right now, and I've got to let it out So that physical contact will move stress through your body. This isn't this is they that? You can see this in MRI studies. You see the decrease in the stress. Neuroscience now shows this to be true. You've got to move it through your body. Now before I wanted to kind of give you the formal definition of burnout, it is, it is they call it a occupational phenomenal, okay, it by that they're not calling it a disease. It is not classified as a disease, but it is noted in the International Classification of Diseases, and it has a code now it is they do tie it directly to chronic workplace stress, and this is where I have a problem with the World Health Organization, because when they added this to the International Classification of diseases in 2019 they didn't have COVID. 19 hybrid or work from home environments in mind, and it is totally changed. Stress and burnout are following people around. It's very difficult for them to escape. So besides that, that disconnect that I was talking about, it's really complete exhaustion, depletion of your energy just drained from all of the stressors. And again, it's that reduced efficiency in your work that you're producing because you don't care as much. It's that disconnect so and then the physical symptoms do build up. And burnout isn't like this. It's not an overnight thing. It's a build up, just like gaining 25 pounds, just like getting sick enough that I need a little bit more medication for different issues, that stuff builds up on you and when you when you're recovering from burnout, you didn't get there overnight. You're not going to get out of it overnight either. It's I worked with a personal trainer until I could touch my toes, and then she's pushed me out to go join a gym. But again, it's step by step, and learning to eat healthy, and then ultimately, the third piece that really changed the game for me was learning about the muscles in my brain and getting mentally fit. That was really the third leg of getting my health back.   Michael Hingson ** 38:33 So how does all of that help you deal with stress and the potential of burnout today? Yeah,   Rachelle Stone ** 38:43 more than anything, I know how to prevent it. That is my, my the number one thing I know when I'm sensing a stressor that is impacting me, I can quickly get rid of it. Now, for instance, I'll give you a good example. I was on my the board of directors for my Homeowners Association, and that's always   Michael Hingson ** 39:03 stressful. I've been there, right? Well, I   Rachelle Stone ** 39:06 was up for an hour and a half one night ruminating, and I I realized, because I coach a lot of people around burnout and symptoms, so when I was ruminating, I recognized, oh my gosh, that HOA does not deserve that much oxygen in my brain. And what did I do the next day? I resigned. Resigned, yeah, so removing the stressors so I can process the stress. I process my stress. I always make sure I schedule a beach walk for low tide. I will block my calendar for that so I can make sure I'm there, because that fills my tank. That's self care for me. I make sure I'm exercising, I'm eating good food. I actually worked with a health coach last year because I felt like my eating was getting a little off kilter again. So I just hired a coach for a few months to help me get back on track. Of getting support where I need it. That support circle is really important to maintain and process your stress and prevent burnout.   Michael Hingson ** 40:10 So we've talked a lot about stress and dealing with it and so on. And like to get back to the idea of you went, you explored working with the international coaching Federation, and you went to a school. So what did you then do? What really made you attracted to the idea of coaching, and what do you get out of it?   Rachelle Stone ** 40:35 Oh, great question. Thanks for that. So for me, once I I was in this foundations course, I recognized or realized what had happened to me. I i again, kept my mouth shut, and I just continued with the course. By the end of the course, I really, really enjoyed it, and I saw I decided I wanted to continue on to become a coach. So I just continued in my training. By the end of 2015 early 2016 I was a coach. I went and joined the international coaching Federation, and they offer accreditation. So I wanted to get accredited, because, as I said, from my first industry, a big proponent for credit accreditation. I think it's very important, especially in an unregulated industry like coaching. So we're not bound by HIPAA laws. We are not doctors, we are coaches. It's very different lane, and we do self regulate. So getting accredited is important to me. And I thought my ACC, which my associate a certified coach in 2016 when I moved to the area I'm living in now, in 2017 and I joined the local chapter here, I just continued on. I continued with education. I knew my lane is, is, is burnout. I started to own it. I started to bring it forward a little bit and talk about my experiences with with other coaches and clients to help them through the years and and it felt natural. So with the ICF, I wanted to make sure I stayed in a path that would allow me to hang my shingle proudly, and everything I did in the destination management world I'm now doing in the coaching world. I wound up on the board of directors for our local chapter as a programming director, which was so perfect for me because I'm coming from meetings and events, so as a perfect person to do their programming, and now I am their chapter liaison, and I am President Elect, so I'm taking the same sort of leadership I had in destination management and wrapping my arms around it in the coaching industry,   Michael Hingson ** 42:56 you talk about People honing their leadership skills to help prepare them for a career move or their next career. It isn't always that way, though, right? It isn't always necessarily that they're going to be going to a different career. Yep,   Rachelle Stone ** 43:11 correct. Yeah. I mean, not everybody's looking for trans transition. Some people are looking for that to break through the glass ceiling. I have other clients that are just wanting to maybe move laterally. Others are just trying to figure it out every client is different. While I specialize in hospitality and burnout, I probably have more clients in the leadership lane, Senior VP level, that are trying to figure out their next step, if they want to go higher, or if they're content where they are, and a lot of that comes from that ability to find the right balance for you in between your career and your personal life. I think there comes a point when we're in our younger careers, we are fully identified by what we do. I don't think that's true for upcoming generations, but for our generation, and maybe Jen, maybe some millennials, very identified by what they do, there comes a point in your career, and I'm going to say somewhere between 35 and 50, where you recognize that those two Things need to be separate,   Michael Hingson ** 44:20 and the two things being   Rachelle Stone ** 44:23 your identity, who you are from what you do, got it two different things. And a lot of leaders on their journey get so wrapped up in what they do, they lose who they are.   Michael Hingson ** 44:39 What really makes a good leader,   Rachelle Stone ** 44:42 authenticity. I'm a big proponent of heart based leadership. Brene Brown, I'm Brene Brown trained. I am not a facilitator, but I love her work, and I introduce all my clients to it, especially my newer leaders. I think it's that. Authenticity that you know the command and control leadership no longer works. And I can tell you, I do work with some leaders that are trying to improve their human skills, and by that I mean their emotional intelligence, their social skills, their ability to interact on a human level with others, because when they have that high command and control directive type of leadership, they're not connecting with their people. And we now have five generations in the workforce that all need to be interacted with differently. So command and control is a tough kind of leadership style that I actually unless they're willing to unless they're open to exploring other ways of leading, I won't work with them. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 45:44 and the reality is, I'm not sure command and control as such ever really worked. Yeah, maybe you control people. But did it really get you and the other person and the company? What what you needed.   Rachelle Stone ** 46:01 Generally, that's what we now call a toxic environment. Yes, yes. But that, you know, this has been, we've been on a path of, you know, this work ethic was supposed to, was supposed to become a leisure ethic in the 70s, you know, we went to 40 hour work weeks. Where are we now? We're back up to 6070, hour work week. Yeah, we're trying to lower the age that so kids can start working this is not a leisure ethic that we were headed towards. And now with AI, okay, let's change this conversation. Yeah, toxic environments are not going to work. Moving forward that command and control leadership. There's not a lot of it left, but there's, it's lingering, and some of the old guard, you know, there it's, it's slowly changing.   Michael Hingson ** 46:49 It is, I think, high time that we learn a lot more about the whole concept of teamwork and true, real team building. And there's a lot to be said for there's no I in team, that's right, and it's an extremely important thing to learn. And I think there are way to, still, way too many people who don't recognize that, but it is something that I agree with you. Over time, it's it's starting to evolve to a different world, and the pandemic actually was one, and is one of the things that helps it, because we introduced the hybrid environment, for example, and people are starting to realize that they can still get things done, and they don't necessarily have to do it the way they did before, and they're better off for it.   Rachelle Stone ** 47:38 That's right. Innovation is beautiful. I actually, I mean, as horrible as the pandemic was it, there was a lot of good that came out of it, to your point. And it's interesting, because I've watched this in coaching people. I remember early in the pandemic, I had a new client, and they came to the they came to their first call on Zoom, really slumped down in the chair like I could barely see their nose and up and, you know, as we're kind of talking, getting to know each other. One of the things they said to me, because they were working from home, they were working like 1011, hours a day. Had two kids, a husband, and they also had yet they're, they're, they're like, I one of the things they said to me, which blew my mind, was, I don't have time to put on a load of laundry. They're working from home. Yeah? It's that mindset that you own my time because you're paying me, yeah, versus I'm productive and I'm doing good work for you. Is why you're paying for paying me? Yeah? So it's that perception and trying to shift one person at a time, shifting that perspective   Michael Hingson ** 48:54 you talked before about you're a coach, you're not a doctor, which I absolutely appreciate and understand and in studying coaching and so on, one of the things that I read a great deal about is the whole concept of coaches are not therapists. A therapist provides a decision or a position or a decision, and they are more the one that provides a lot of the answers, because they have the expertise. And a coach is a guide who, if they're doing their job right, leads you to you figuring out the answer. That's   Rachelle Stone ** 49:34 a great way to put it, and it's pretty clear. That's, that's, that's pretty, pretty close the I like to say therapy is a doctor patient relationship. It's hierarchy so and the doctor is diagnosing, it's about repair and recovery, and it's rooted in the past, diagnosing, prescribing, and then the patient following orders and recovering. Hmm, in coaching, it's a peer to peer relationship. So it's, we're co creators, and we're equal. And it's, it's based on future goals only. It's only based on behavior change and future goals. So when I have clients and they dabble backwards, I will that's crossing the line. I can't support you there. I will refer clients to therapy. And actually, what I'm doing right now, I'm taking a mental health literacy course through Harvard Medical Center and McLean University. And the reason I'm doing this is because so many of my clients, I would say 80% of my clients are also in therapy, and it's very common. We have a lot of mental health issues in the world right now as a result of the pandemic, and we have a lot of awareness coming forward. So I want to make sure I'm doing the best for my clients in recognizing when they're at need or at risk and being able to properly refer them.   Michael Hingson ** 51:04 Do you think, though, that even in a doctor patient relationship, that more doctors are recognizing that they accomplish more when they create more of a teaming environment? Yes,   51:18 oh, I'm so glad you   Rachelle Stone ** 51:20 brought that up, okay, go ahead. Go ahead. Love that. I have clients who are in therapy, and I ask them to ask their therapist so that if they're comfortable with this trio. And it works beautifully. Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 51:36 it is. It just seems to me that, again, there's so much more to be said for the whole concept of teaming and teamwork, and patients do better when doctors or therapists and so on explain and bring them into the process, which almost makes them not a coach as you are, but an adjunct to what you do, which is what I think it's all about. Or are we the adjunct to what they do? Or use the adjunct to what they do? Yeah, it's a team, which is what it should be.   52:11 Yeah, it's, I always it's like the Oreo cookie, right?   Michael Hingson ** 52:16 Yeah, and the frosting is in the middle, yeah, crying   Rachelle Stone ** 52:19 in the middle. But it's true, like a therapist can work both in the past and in the future, but that partnership and that team mentality and supporting a client, it helps them move faster and further in their in their desired goals. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 52:37 it's beautiful, yeah, yeah. And I think it's extremely important, tell me about this whole idea of mental fitness. I know you're studying that. Tell me more about that. Is it real? Is it okay? Or what? You know, a lot of people talk about it and they say it's who cares. They all roll   Rachelle Stone ** 52:56 their eyes mental fitness. What are you talking about? Yeah, um, I like to say mental fitness is the third leg of our is what keeps us healthy. I like to look at humans as a three legged stool, and that mental fitness, that mental wellness, is that third piece. So you have your spiritual and community wellness, you have your physical wellness, and then you have your mental wellness. And that mental wellness encompasses your mental health, your mental fitness. Now, mental fitness, by definition, is your ability to respond to life's challenges from a positive rather than a negative mindset. And there's a new science out there called positive it was actually not a new science. It's based on four sciences, Positive Intelligence, it's a cognitive behavioral science, or psychology, positive psychology, performance psychology, and drawing a bank anyway, four sciences and this body of work determined that there's actually a tipping point we live in our amygdala, mostly, and there's a reason, when we were cavemen, we needed to know what was coming that outside stressor was going to eat us, or if we could eat it. Yeah, but we have language now. We don't need that, not as much as we did, not in the same way, not in the same way, exactly. We do need to be aware of threats, but not every piece of information that comes into the brain. When that information comes in our brains, amplify it by a factor of three to one. So with that amplification, it makes that little, little tiny Ember into a burning, raging fire in our brain. And then we get stuck in stress. So it's recognizing, and there's actually you are building. If you do yoga, meditation, tai chi, gratitude journaling, any sort of those practices, you're flexing that muscle. You talk to somebody who does gratitude journaling who just started a month in, they're going to tell. You, they're happier. They're going to tell you they're not having as many ruminating thoughts, and they're going to say, I'm I'm smiling more. I started a new journal this year, and I said, I'm singing more. I'm singing songs that I haven't thought of in years. Yeah, out of the blue, popping into my head. Yeah. And I'm happier. So the the concept of mental fitness is really practicing flexing this muscle every day. We take care of our bodies by eating good food, we exercise or walk. We do that to take care of our physical body. We do nothing to take care of our brain other than scroll social media and get anxiety because everybody's life looks so perfect,   Michael Hingson ** 55:38 yeah, and all we're doing is using social media as a stressor.   Rachelle Stone ** 55:42 That's right, I'm actually not on social media on LinkedIn. That's it.   Michael Hingson ** 55:48 I have accounts, but I don't go to it exactly. My excuse is it takes way too long with a screen reader, and I don't have the time to do it. I don't mind posting occasionally, but I just don't see the need to be on social media for hours every day.   Rachelle Stone ** 56:05 No, no, I do, like, like a lot of businesses, especially local small businesses, are they advertise. They only have they don't have websites. They're only on Facebook. So I do need to go to social media for things like that. But the most part, no, I'm not there. Not at all. It's   Michael Hingson ** 56:20 it's way too much work. I am amazed sometimes when I'll post something, and I'm amazed at how quickly sometimes people respond. And I'm wondering to myself, how do you have the time to just be there to see this? It can't all be coincidence. You've got to be constantly on active social media to see it. Yeah,   Rachelle Stone ** 56:39 yeah, yeah. Which is and this, this whole concept of mental fitness is really about building a practice, a habit. It's a new habit, just like going to the gym, and it's so important for all of us. We are our behaviors are based on how we interpret these messages as they come in, yeah, so learning to reframe or recognize the message and give a different answer is imperative in order to have better communication, to be more productive and and less chaos. How   Michael Hingson ** 57:12 do we teach people to recognize that they have a whole lot more control over fear than they think they do, and that that really fear can be a very positive guide in our lives. And I say that because I talked about not being afraid of escaping from the World Trade Center over a 22 year period, what I realized I never did was to teach people how to do that. And so now I wrote a book that will be out later in the year. It's called Live like a guide dog, stories of from a blind man and his dogs, about being brave, overcoming adversity and walking in faith. And the point of it is to say that you can control your fear. I'm not saying don't be afraid, but you have control over how you let that fear affect you and what you deal with and how you deal it's all choice. It is all choice. But how do we teach people to to deal with that better, rather than just letting fear build up   Rachelle Stone ** 58:12 it? Michael, I think these conversations are so important. Number one is that learner's mind, that willingness, that openness to be interested in finding a better way to live. I always say that's a really hard way to live when you're living in fear. Yeah, so step number one is an openness, or a willingness or a curiosity about wanting to live life better,   Michael Hingson ** 58:40 and we have to instill that in people and get them to realize that they all that we all have the ability to be more curious if we choose to do it.   Rachelle Stone ** 58:49 But again, choice and that, that's the big thing so many and then there's also, you know, Michael, I can't wait to read your book. I'm looking forward to this. I'm also know that you speak. I can't wait to see you speak. The thing is, when we speak or write and share this information, we give them insight. It's what they do with it that matters, which is why, when I with the whole with the mental fitness training that I do, it's seven weeks, yeah, I want them to start to build that habit, and I give them three extra months so they can continue to work on that habit, because it's that important for them to start. It's foundational your spirit. When you talk about your experience in the World Trade Center, and you say you weren't fearful, your spiritual practice is such a big part of that, and that's part of mental fitness too. That's on that layers on top of your ability to flex those mental muscles and lean into your spirituality and not be afraid.   Michael Hingson ** 59:55 Well, I'd love to come down and speak. If you know anybody that needs a speaker down there. I. I'm always looking for speaking opportunities, so love your help, and   1:00:03 my ears open for sure and live like   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:06 a guide dog. Will be out later this year. It's, it's, I've already gotten a couple of Google Alerts. The the publisher has been putting out some things, which is great. So we're really excited about it.   Rachelle Stone ** 1:00:16 Wonderful. I can't wait to see it. So what's   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:19 up for you in 2024   Rachelle Stone ** 1:00:22 so I actually have a couple of things coming up this year that are pretty big. I have a partner. Her name's vimari Roman. She's down in Miami, and I'm up here in the Dunedin Clearwater area. But we're both hospitality professionals that went into coaching, and we're both professional certified coaches, and we're both certified mental fitness coaches. When the pandemic hit, she's also a Career Strategist. She went she started coaching at conferences because the hospitality industry was hit so hard, she reached out to me and brought me in too. So in 2024 we've been coaching at so many conferences, we can't do it. We can't do it. It's just too much, but we also know that we can provide a great service. So we've started a new company. It's called coaches for conferences, and it's going to be like a I'll call it a clearing house for securing pro bono coaches for your conferences. So that means, let's say you're having a conference in in LA and they'd like to offer coaching, pro bono coaching to their attendees as an added value. I'll we'll make the arrangements for the coaches, local in your area to to come coach. You just have to provide them with a room and food and beverage and a place to coach on your conference floor and a breakout. So we're excited for that that's getting ready to launch. And I think 2024 is going to be the year for me to dip my toe in start writing my own story. I think it's time   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:02 writing a book. You can say it. I'm gonna do it.   Rachelle Stone ** 1:02:05 I'm gonna write a book Good. I've said it out loud. I've started to pull together some thoughts around I mean, I've been thinking about it for years. But yeah, if the timing feels right,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:21 then it probably is, yep, which makes sense. Well, this has been fun. It's been wonderful. Can you believe we've already been at this for more than an hour? So clearly we   1:02:33 this went so fast. Clearly we   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:35 did have fun. We followed the rule, this was fun. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening and for watching, if you're on YouTube watching, and all I can ask is that, wherever you are, please give us a five star rating for the podcast. We appreciate it. And anything that you want to say, we would love it. And I would appreciate you feeling free to email me and let me know your thoughts. You can reach me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, would love to hear from you. You can also go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and it's m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, N, and as I said to Rochelle just a minute ago, if any of you need a speaker, we'd love to talk with you about that. You can also email me at speaker@michaelhingson.com love to hear from you and love to talk about speaking. So however you you reach out and for whatever reason, love to hear from you, and for all of you and Rochelle, you, if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, let us know we're always looking for people who want to come on the podcast. Doesn't cost anything other than your time and putting up with me for a while, but we appreciate it, and hope that you'll decide to to introduce us to other people. So with that, I again want to say, Rochelle, thank you to you. We really appreciate you being here and taking the time to chat with us today.   Rachelle Stone ** 1:04:13 It's been the fastest hour of my life. I'm gonna have to watch the replay. Thank you so much for having me. It's been my pleasure to join you.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:24 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

This time we get to meet Jocelyn Sandstrom, my first podcast guest from Hawaii. Jocelyn was born and raised in Hawaii. Tt the urging of her mother, she took her first modeling job when she was sixteen. As she tells the story, she grew up quiet and pretty shy and she didn't have a great deal of confidence in herself. After high school, modeling became her full-time career. She says that the urging and support of her mother caused her to make some of the best decisions in her life. Modeling, she tells us, brought her out of herself. She traveled to 12 countries over a 20-year modeling career. She loved every minute of the experience.   In 2003 she began thinking that she wanted to help others deal with their confidence and career issues. By 2010 she decided that she was experiencing burnout as a model and changed to a coaching career that, in part, helped others to recognize burnout and deal with it. Jocelyn provides us with some good life pointers and lessons to help us change our mindset from the usual negative “I have to do this” to a more positive view “I get to do this”. I leave it to her to tell more.   Jocelyn does offer many insights I am sure you will appreciate. Over her 15-year coaching career she has become certified in several disciplines, and she uses them to teach her clients how to shift their careers to more positive and strong efforts going forward.       About the Guest:   Growing up in Hawaii, Jocelyn has lived and worked in 12 different countries. This experience has allowed her to realize that even though we may speak different languages or have different traditions, at our core, we are all the same. She has used this knowledge to help and support clients around the world in creating next-level success not just in their careers but in their personal lives as well.    Since 2010, she has been providing Quantum Energy Sessions and teaching Neuro-Linguistic Programming, Neurological Re-patterning, and the Millennium Method to clients globally. In 2022, she founded Wellness and Metaphysical, a community-driven platform that promotes a higher level of consciousness through expos and retreats.   Jocelyn's mindset and energy work have propelled her career, allowing her to work with leading global luxury brands like Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Fendi, Cartier, Tiffany & Co., Christian Louboutin, and Yves Saint Laurent, among others. She has been featured on the covers of Elle, Marie Claire, Esquire, Harper's Bazaar, and more. Alongside her husband, she has hosted two travel shows and appeared in various feature and short films. After creating a career beyond her wildest dreams through quantum manifestations, her passion is to now help others do the same, whether it's business, health, relationships, or any aspect of life.   Jocelyn specializes in helping clients release deep-rooted issues from their past that are holding them back. She supports clients in building not just success but also fulfillment at the same time because success without fulfillment is empty, leading to burnout and anxiety. She supports her clients to discover their authentic truth and share that with the world, magnetizing their energy to start attracting people and opportunities out of the blue, enabling them to fall in love with themselves and their life while creating more success than ever before!   Jocelyn is a certified:   Neuro-Linguistic Programing Advanced Practitioner + Teacher Neurological Re-patterning Practitioner + Teacher Ericksonian Hypnosis Practitioner + Teacher Millennium Method™ Practitioner + Teacher Yuen Method™ Practitioner Reiki Practitioner.   Ways to connect Jocelyn:   Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jocelynlukosandstrom/?hl=en Facebook https://www.facebook.com/jocelyn.lukosandstrom/ LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelyn-luko-sandstrom-4789882a/  Website www.jocelynsandstrom.com   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 01:56 Thank you so much, and I do hope you come back again. It's such an honor to be on your podcast. Well, it's   Michael Hingson ** 02:02 been a while. It's only been 15 years since I've been there, and it is time to come back, but my wife passed away, and so it's kind of not nearly as fun to come alone, unless, unless I come and people keep me busy over there, but we'll figure it out.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 02:17 Yes, I'm so sorry about your wife, and if you want, I will show you around here.   Michael Hingson ** 02:24 Well, we'll have to make something happen. We'll just, we'll just do it. Yes, but I'm really glad that you're here. Um, Jocelyn is an interesting individual, and by any standard, she is a we're a neurological repatterning practitioner plus teacher. She has a lot of things. She does neuro linguistics. She is also a Reiki Master and practitioner, and just a number of things, and we're going to get to all of that, but I want to, again, welcome you and really glad that you're taking the time to be with us instead of being with clients, with all the things that you do.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 03:11 Thank you so much for your time. I love your podcast and everything, all the messages that you're bringing out onto the world.   Michael Hingson ** 03:17 Well, thank you. It has been a lot of fun to be able to do it and continue to do it, and we're having a lot of fun doing it, so I can't complain a whole lot about that. It's just a lot of fun. And I as I tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as everybody else, then I'm not doing my job right. So I'm really glad that I get to learn so much from from people as well. Well, why don't we start, as I love to do, with learning about the early Jocelyn, growing up and all that sort of stuff.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 03:49 Well, I did grow up in Hawaii, and I, like every a lot of people, we went through a lot of growing pains. I had a lot that I did grow through, and it wasn't until I started my first contract overseas when I was 16 that life shifted for me, and I started to find my people and started to come into my own, get you know, transcending above the bullying and everything that happened in childhood. And then I lived overseas for about 20 years and moved home in 2016 to be with my family again.   Michael Hingson ** 04:29 So where did you live for those 20 years? I lived in   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 04:31 12 different countries around the world. Um, I absolutely for me, it was I just loved exploring different cultures. It wasn't like going on vacation, to me, is amazing, but going to a place, living there, working with the people, learning the culture, learning the different ways that they work in, you know, speaking like the languages I only you know, spoke a very little bit of each language, just like taxi language, right? Um. And then just immersing into the culture, just the food tastes different in every place as well. Like it could be the same thing, but it just tastes different. Life is so different. And for me, that was my passion, really, to just immerse into different cultures, different parts of the world, different parts of me as well. Because every time I went to another country, I became a different person. There was another side of me that got ignited that I didn't even know was there. And so I got to not only discover myself, but I got to discover the world.   Michael Hingson ** 05:30 What made you go to so many different countries? What started all that?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 05:35 Well, I was modeling so I was able to do contracts in different countries. And so whenever I wanted to go to their country, I just contacted an agency there, and I got a contract and went and so basically, the world was my oyster. And I just said, Where do I desire to go next? And then Khan reached out. Instead of waiting for someone to come to me, I reached out to that, you know, to agencies over there and got a contract and went over. So I've never, once I started that. I've never been one to sit around and wait for things to kind of come to me. It's always been this is what I desire. So now let me go and create that to happen. And that's how I created my last career to be so successful. And there's so many things that I learned along the way that not only can you use that, but also to do it in a way that doesn't burn you out. And so that's my passion now, is to help people to build success and fulfillment, not just the success. Because I had burnt out pretty bad, and I in hindsight, if I had done it differently, I probably could have built it even bigger without the burnout. And so that's my passion now, and that's how I built this career, is through that fulfillment and success at the same time, so that it's so fulfilling, as well as creating next level results.   Michael Hingson ** 06:59 Did you go to college? Or did you go from high school into modeling?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 07:03 I went straight in. What   Michael Hingson ** 07:06 started you with that? My   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 07:08 mom, of course, it's always your mom, right? Of course, because I was very shy, and like I said, I went through a lot growing up, through bullying and all of this. So for me, it was like the best blessing that's ever happened. For me, I was very scared, but I knew that I wanted to explore and try, and it brought me out of my shell. It brought me to my people. It was the first time that, you know, people like, wanted to hear what I had to say, really, like, they were fascinated. And I was like, what, you know, and again, again, what I realized, now after all this time, is I had a perception growing up here in Hawaii, so necessarily, I've been finding out that not people did not have that same perception that I had about myself. I realized I was almost the one that was not coming out of my shell fully, and therefore it was hard to connect, I think, and people have a different perception of me. So looking back on my childhood now, when I say bullying, yes, there was bullying and there was, you know, but overall, there were also things that I perceived in a way that wasn't necessarily true for other people, because I would run into them and they'd remember me, and they'd have remember a different version of me, and I'd be like, it's, you know? And so I realize now how much I actually also held my back, held myself back, and, yeah, well,   Michael Hingson ** 08:39 did that affect your modeling career, because I would think as a model, you'd have to be reasonably outgoing and be able to work in a variety of different kinds of situations.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 08:49 I think it was what helped me to be resilient growing up through the hardships of what I went through, you know, with relationships and everything. That's what got me to be resilient, to stick it out. Because not everybody does stick it out. Because there is a ton of rejection, there is a ton there is a ton of things that you're going through at a very young age. My first contract was when I was 16 in high school during the summer, and so to be able to handle obviously, you know, there's a lot of not so nice things in the industry as well, too. So to be able to handle that, I think that came from everything that I grew through as a child, as well as my mom's support, because she was the one, the one thing that was stable throughout my life, where I would always call her, because I was living in so many different countries, I think you know, she was my best friend, and so that, and living in all those different countries helping me to be so resilient, is what Korea helped me to create this business to be so success, successful as well,   Michael Hingson ** 09:55 what some of the countries that you stayed in went to, well, some. Of   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 10:00 my favorite I started in Tokyo, and then I went to Korea, Sydney, Milan, Hamburg, London. I did live in New York for a little while, Taiwan, China, you know, like, there's so many different places. Like, some of my favorites definitely were Tokyo, because that was and Hong Kong was where I spent most of my time at the end. And I, of course, loved Milan and Sydney as well as London as well too. And of course, New York is just Memphis.   Michael Hingson ** 10:33 I enjoy Tokyo. I've been to Japan twice, not for long periods. Well, the second time, actually, I guess the third time I've been there three times, and the last time was when we did work with the Japanese publisher of my first book, Thunder dog. And we were there for almost two weeks. It was a lot of fun, but mostly I spent time around Tokyo until thunder dog, and then we were all over Japan. But it was very enjoyable. What I really remember the first time I went to Japan. We were over there about four days, I tried to eat very healthy, um, although I had ice cream with every meal, because they insisted, and all that, when I came back, I had lost my pal. I can't believe it. Wow. I know that didn't happen the second and third time, but I didn't gain weight either, so it's okay, but I really enjoyed Japan. I've been to Korea. Enjoyed that as well. Not been to Australia. I'm still want to go. I've been to New Zealand, but not Australia. Yeah.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 11:36 Australia is an amazing place, the people, the food, just the lifestyle,   Michael Hingson ** 11:43 yeah, yeah. And it is, of course, so different because it's on the other side of the equator. So right now they're getting into their summer season.   Speaker 1 ** 11:52 Yes, yes, absolutely. So it's pretty   Michael Hingson ** 11:55 cool. Was your mama model? Is that what got you guys to get you into it or No, no, she just, she just thought it was good for you,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 12:04 huh? Yeah, exactly. And thank goodness she did, because, honestly, it was the thing that got me out of my shell. It like for me to go and live in Tokyo when I was 16 during the summer. It showed me that high school wasn't everything, because I was so consumed by, you know, school kids and the cool kids and not being cool and all of those things. And when I went over there, I realized, wow, there is a whole other world outside of this. And it completely changed my life. And so when I came back, I didn't relate to everybody in the same way. I wasn't so consumed with everything, because I knew what was waiting for me. I knew that there was so much more to explore and to experience. So it really was the thing that completely changed my life, and I will always be grateful for that on how it allowed me to grow and through the years, I grew through that. Like each contract I did, I grew, I stretched myself, each country that I went to, where I didn't know anybody except for the agency, and lived, you know, with new people, and had a map that they would give you, and you'd have to go and find your castings on your own, before we had Google Maps, using a paper map, and just, you know, walking down the street and looking for the places like it just stretched me in so many beautiful ways. And I wish everyone could go through that experience. Because when you put yourself into places where you stretch, you just you access the strength that's actually within you. It's just compounding your resilience and your power and your knowing within yourself, and that's what makes you unstoppable. When you know you can do all those things and you've done all those things, the next step is that much easier because you've already done it.   Michael Hingson ** 13:56 Yeah, um, there's so many ways of stretching and growing. I was just reading an email from someone I'm the vice president on the board of directors of the Colorado Center for the Blind, which is a training center that teaches newly blinded people or people who are losing their eyesight, teaching them blindness techniques and teaching them that blindness isn't the problem. It's really our attitudes about it. And one of the things, if you go to the center and take advantage of the full residential program, one of the last things that you have to do is you are dropped off somewhere within some sort of walking distance of the agency itself. But that could be a couple miles Well, it may not even be just a couple miles away. It may be that you're further, but you have to figure out where you are and get back to the center. And you can only ask one question of the public, so it's all about you learning to use your wit, your wits, and people do it all the time, right? Awesome, and it's so cool me, and so I really relate very much to what you're talking about, as far as how you learned to stretch and grow with all the modeling and being in all those foreign countries and having to learn to live there.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 15:13 Yeah, that's so powerful. That's so amazing. What you're what you've done, and your story is so inspiring and so powerful.   Michael Hingson ** 15:21 Well, I I never did go to that center, and so I never actually, directly was subjected to that. However, with all the traveling that I've done around the world, I've had to essentially do the same thing, so I know what you're talking about, and it's so exhilarating when you figure it out, right? Yes,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 15:41 it is, and and that's why we're here. We're here to experience all those things, because if not, it would just be so boring. And so one of the things that I always, you know, remind myself and my clients, is that, you know, we may be in a place that's crunchy and doesn't feel great, but we're growing through it. And when we do grow through it, the feeling of getting on the other side is what why we why we do it. And once we get to the other side, or let's say you're climbing a mountain, and you get to the top of the mountain, you don't want to just sit at the top of the mountain. You want to climb another mountain, because it's the journey. That's the thing that we enjoy. And so when we embrace the journey, not only do we get to where we desire to go, to feel that feeling of like accomplishment, but also we get to enjoy the journey instead of just trying to rush through it to get there.   Michael Hingson ** 16:38 I somewhere in my life, probably when I was fairly young, decided, although I didn't articulate it for a while, but decided that life is an adventure, and wherever we go, we can find very positive things. And I have never found a place that I hated, that I didn't like to go to. I've been all over this country and and I have eaten some some pretty unhealthy food in places, very deep fried kinds of things and so on. But I've also found ways to enjoy some of it, although I tried to eat as little of the bad food, if you will, that's high in cholesterol and so on. I've tried to eat as little of that as possible. But I've enjoyed everywhere I have been. I've been been to all 50 states, had a lot of fun in every place where I've been, and wouldn't trade any of those experiences for anything, much less traveling to a variety of other countries. Mm hmm, so it's a lot of fun to, you know, to do, but life is an adventure, and we should approach it that way. Mm   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 17:40 hmm, yeah, absolutely. And when we do approach it that way, we enjoy it so much more, because I used to always avoid making a mistake or things going wrong or get so frustrated that it wasn't wrong or that it wasn't going well. But now I I lean into those things, and it's those things that make life interesting. It's those things like the mistakes that I make, I grow more from those mistakes than from anything else. And through the hardships that I've been through, I've grown so much from those as well, too. And so when we lean into the journey and just know that there is no good, bad, right, wrong, it's just the experience of what it is. We live in a completely different way, and we can like I was telling my clients in one of the webinars I was running the other day that my husband and I had read the book celestian prophecy. And so he goes on a journey, and he doesn't plan anything. He just shows up and he listens to, you know, synchronicities, and he kind of goes with that. And so when we went to Jordan, we did the same thing. We're like, you know what, let's just go play. Let's go play and have no plan, and just arrive and discover what we're gonna do. And so we did that. And then we ended up, you know, meeting this one tour company, and ended up booking them, but it ended up turning out that they weren't the best, and we kind of got ripped off. But the driver that they hired was amazing, and he gave us like these special tours and things because he felt bad that we did get ripped off. And so the thing that looked like it was something bad actually was a blessing, and ended up turning out into this most incredible trip. And so when we make these so called wrong decisions, and we realize that it's not wrong, that it's leading us to something better, we don't have to get upset about it, like we weren't upset that that happened. We were just on the journey and the adventure of it, and that actually turned out to be one of our most incredible trips.   Michael Hingson ** 19:38 One of the things that I have learned and talked about on this podcast occasionally is that there's no such thing as failure their learning experiences. And I like what you just said, because it isn't that they're something that goes wrong. It happened the way it did. And the question is, what did we learn from it? And I'll bet that that driver. I would never have done those special things for you if you had treated him differently and treated him in a in a negative way.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 20:08 Mm, hmm, yeah, if we were grumpy and angry, he would have said, Okay, well, too bad for you guys. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 20:15 yeah, forget you guys. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Well. You modeled for you said 20 years, right? Yes. And what made you decided that you wanted to give that up.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 20:29 So I actually started doing wellness in 2003 when my mom got sick, and that's when my whole world shifted. That's when I wanted to find a natural way to help her, to support her, and that's how I started doing neurological repatterning, neuro linguistic programming and Ericksonian hypnosis. Then I went into quantum physics based energy work, and was able to help her and the at the same time, I was working on my career and both her getting, you know, her recovering and getting stronger, and my career taking off, I thought, oh my gosh, like I want to help people do this. I don't want to just use it for myself. I want to help other people do this. So I actually started while I was still modeling, simultaneously teaching and doing sessions for clients, since 2010 and so I've been doing this since then, and now it's, I just want to do it full time. It's just, it's just so fulfilling to be able to support clients through shifts, to create things beyond their wildest dreams, to open up the ease and the flow, to remove the burnout to, you know, to know that anything is possible and that we create our reality, we get to create we, you know, like we're creating an abundance of things every single moment of every single day based on our thoughts. And so we can create an abundance of lack, or we can create an abundance of, you know, happiness and and it's really just not letting anything take our power. So one of the things that shifted in my life as well, too, was when I was able to not let anything ruin my day, not let anyone or anything ruin my day, not that things that weren't going my way ruin my day. I was just gonna say, Okay, well, this is going on. It's happening for me. So now what do I get to do with this? How do I get to transmute this? How do I turn it into something good, or turn it into my superpower? By practicing neutrality, practicing not reacting and creating more fallout that needs to happen. And so whenever things don't go my way. I don't get frustrated about it anymore. I know that it's an opportunity, opportunity for me to practice a new way of being or new way of thinking. And there was one day where everything was just going so wrong, like from the beginning, like big things too, and I didn't let it take my happiness away, and I didn't let myself get down by it. I was like, Well, what can I do instead? How can I transmute this? How can I like when I missed my yoga class, and I'm like, I'm just gonna go home and I'm gonna do it by myself. Nothing is gonna stop me. This is what I desire to do. And that was my, like, favorite day ever. I felt amazing. I got home after the day of all the things that didn't work out, like almost losing a $2,500 camera lens, and by the end of the day, just feeling so good about it. And my son was saying to me, Okay, I'm gonna go check the mailbox. And he went to go check the mailbox. And at the end of the day, after me not letting anything take my freedom. An electric bill came and we opened it up, but it wasn't a bill. It was a refund for $7,200 for some PV panels that we had purchased that we didn't know we were going to be getting a rebate for. And it just showed me that nothing can take my joy, and because of that, I'm not going to slow down the good things that are on their way to me, either. And so it just opens it up. And from that point on there I don't have bad days. I transmute them,   Michael Hingson ** 24:10 yeah? Which? Which is what we all can do, yeah. So how do you transmute them? Though? What? How do you really do that?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 24:19 Well, the one thing that really helps me is realizing that everything is happening for me, everything like everything is happening for me, to help me to learn, to help me to grow, to help me to create my next level of success. And if I look at it that way, I'm not the victim. But if I look at it as the victim like it's happening to me, I have no power. I've given my power to the situation, but if I know that it's happening for me and that I'm unstoppable and I'm resilient and I'm always going to find a way, because I'm never going to give up. So for instance, with that camera lens, I ordered a camera lens that Best Buy was meant to ship me, and I called them because it was a. A week. And they said, Oh, it looks like you actually picked it up from the store. So no one shipping you anything. You got the product already. And I said, No, I didn't there. It was out of stock, and the person that I bought it from ordered it to be shipped to my house. And they said, well, there's nothing we can do on my end. On their end, I have to go to the shop, find the person who sold it to me and talked to them, and so the old me would have reacted, freaked out, created all this necessary Fallout, gone in angry, but now I was like, You know what? It's going to work out. Somehow it's going to work out. I don't know how it's going to work out, but the more calm and neutral I am, the more that I just let it flow, instead of react to this. Somehow it's just going to work out. And if it doesn't, it's just money. Like, it's not my life, it's not the end of the world, it's just money, and I can make more money. And so when I approached it that way, and I went in to talk to them, I wasn't guns blazing, I wasn't, you know, angry, I just came in and I was like, hey, you know, this is a situation. I was wondering if you could help me. And somehow, magically, they were just like, oh yeah, no problem. I can see it. There's an issue, and we'll send you a new one. And then it arrived in a couple days. And so a lot of times it's our reaction that causes the issues. But if you know, sorry, no, go ahead. I was just going to say, if we know that, it's going to work out somehow, because we're never going to give up, nothing is going to break us. Then somehow, magically, it always does.   Michael Hingson ** 26:25 Did they or you have to figure out exactly what really did happen?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 26:31 Nope. And to me, it doesn't really matter, because as long as it works out, I'm just, I'm always taking the next step. I'm always, if something, you know, like I in the beginning, I would launch programs and no one would show up, and it wouldn't matter, I would just keep launching. Or, you know, I heard this one story that completely inspired me about Anthony Robbins, when he first started doing his programs, and he sold his first program out, he rented the the call for it, and not one person bought but it didn't stop him. He said to his four friends, Hey, can I pay you with pizza and soda so that you could sit here for four days so I could teach you my program? Because he knew where he was going, nothing was going to stop him. And so I do the same thing, like I sold a master class here in Hawaii, and most of my networks online. And so one person had showed up, signed up, and I was like, Okay, so maybe do I cancel this? But I just really felt like there was something that was going to happen. If I just teach it, it's going to stretch me, it's going to do something. I just kept showing up and selling it every single day, trying different ways of selling it, not out of scarcity, but out of okay, well, this is the universe or something giving me an opportunity to play, to practice, selling, to have fun with it. And so I did. And you know, the day of, there was still only two people that were going to be there, and I thought, maybe I should cancel it, because I'm going to look like a failure. But then I thought, I don't care what I don't care what people think. If I'm a failure or not, the only part of me that will be bruised is my ego, but I know that I'm so much more than that, and if Anthony Robbins can do that, I can do that. So I'm going to show up and I'm going to teach these people just as powerfully as if there was 100 people there. And so I showed up, and at first nobody was there, and I didn't care, because I didn't care anymore. I knew where I was going to build, but there is traffic and stuff, and then finally, by the end of it, nine people showed up out of the blue, and it was the one of the most amazing master classes that I taught, because I taught it in this new way of thinking, where I had I had overcome my fears of my ego, of failure and people what people Were going to think, because I knew where I was going. I was inspired by Anthony Robbins doing that. And if he can do that and build that, I can do that, you know what I mean. So   Michael Hingson ** 28:50 I do, yeah, I I'm a nosy person, and I would have wanted to try to find out what happened with the with the lens. And the reason I'd want to find out is not to fix blame or anything, but because I figured that's a learning experience too. And I have, I've had situations where it worked out whatever it was, but then I went back and asked, now, how come this happened? And when I and the other people involved figured it out, we all learned from it. But again, it's all about, as you said, not going in with guns blazing. It's not a fixing blame. Yeah, it's really all about understanding, and I think that's the most important thing. So this is all about the fact that you adopted a mindset and you decided that you're going to live that mindset, which makes a lot of sense. Mm, hmm,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 29:50 yeah, it to me. It's all mindset, because nothing is real until you create a story around it, which is why eyewitness, eyewitnesses are. Not reliable sources, because you could have the same situation happen, and people will see different thing Bay things based on the reality that they're looking for. And you know, I've even talking to my brother about childhood memories that are completely different, and I'm like, no so and so didn't say it. This person said it, and this is what happened, and in and he fully has a real, real, real memory of it happening in a completely different way. And so it's just really something happens, and we put a meaning and we put a story on it. And so whatever meaning and story you put on it determines the outcome. And so only thing we can control is the meaning and story that we put on it. So do we want to put a meaning and story that empowers us, or do we want to put a meaning and story that makes us not feel so good? And that's also the other thing that shifted in my life.   Michael Hingson ** 30:51 Yeah, it's all about now, ultimately, you're your own best teacher, and you can empower yourself. Yes. Yes, yes, absolutely. So I am not familiar with but would love to learn what is Ericksonian hypnosis.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 31:07 It's just a type of hypnosis, a different style of how you bring somebody down into the the hypnotic state screen, and then you, then you do programming while they're down in the hypnotic but, yeah, it's just a there's, there's multiple different types of hypnosis, and so that's just one of the types. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 31:31 I just never heard of of that particular one. I'm familiar with hypnosis and so on, but I wasn't familiar with Eric Sony, and didn't know whether there was something uniquely interesting about that.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 31:42 No, I think it's just the the style got it well,   Michael Hingson ** 31:47 you know, one of the things that we deal with people in general, in general, is we put a lot of our own limitations on ourselves, especially where we don't need to do that. How do we transcend or overcome limitations. One   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 32:02 of the way to do that is to recognize how powerful we are and how powerful our minds are. So a lot of people say that they can't trust, but they trust that they can't trust. They say that they're not confident, but they're confident that they're not confident, a that they don't create their own reality, and so that belief creates the reality that they don't create that reality, right? And so it's just about looking at the beliefs and saying, Do I want to hold on to this story? So a lot of people will come and say, This always happens to me, and I'll ask them, and does it always happen? And they say, No, it doesn't always happen, but this happened, this happened. This happened, this happened. And we'll say, okay, great. You're really good at validating that story. Do you want to keep validating that story, or do you want to start validating the times that it didn't happen? And it goes back to that red car theory, like, if you're driving on the road, how many red cars do you notice that day, versus if you were driving on the road looking for the red cars? How many red cars would you actually notice? And so what are you looking for? Because we're bombarded with billions of bits of information every single second, but we can only take like plus or minus seven every single second based on what we're looking for. So if we're looking for a red car, in reality, we're going to find that red car. If we're looking for a blue car, we're going to find that blue car. So what story are you telling yourself that's no longer serving you, and what story would you desire to tell yourself instead? And I'll give you an example for me, I used to have this belief that I could make a lot of money, but I couldn't hold on to it, because every time I would make the big amount of money, I'd get hit with a bill, or a pipe would burst, or something would happen. And so I kept telling that story, and I recognized that doesn't always happen. Big money's come in and it didn't go out immediately, but I didn't think about those times because I was validating the other story. So once I recognized that, I said, Okay, I'm not going to validate that other story anymore. I'm going to validate the times when I make big money and more money comes in, so that I can then have this belief that I'm building generational wealth. And that's when my finances changed and I started building generational wealth, right? It it's what we're looking for that we are then going to compound over and over and over again.   Michael Hingson ** 34:28 Yeah, again, it's back to mindset. Yes,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 34:32 it's always back to mindset.   Michael Hingson ** 34:36 That's fair. So you talked about, among other things, dealing with quantum physics and so on. Tell me about quantum leaps. So   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 34:43 quantum leaps to me a book. If you've never read this book, it's amazing. It's it's a really thin book called u squared, and the beginning of the book starts out with this fly that's beating its head against the window pane over and over and over again, trying to get out. So. When all it had to do was stop, fly back, look for the door, and fly out of the door. And so that's basically what I was doing. I was like beating my head, trying to force, trying to make these things work, pushing myself to do things that all the shoulds and the have tos, instead of taking a step back, listening to my own knowing my gut, my intuition, my truth, and then that truth being the door that's going to guide me to, you know, where I'm going. The other piece of that is I looked back on my last career, and I saw it from a whole other perspective. I thought it was from all of that pushing, forcing, all of those things, but in hindsight, when I look at it, it was the moments that I was in alignment, trusting my gut, following my intuition, doing the thing that then all of a sudden, out of the blue, this person dropped into my life, or this opportunity dropped into my life, which then quantum leads me into whole new reality. So the first time I ever wanted to teach bank like, corporate workshops, any type of corporate workshops. I knew that I wanted to teach corporate workshops, and so I started, you know, to develop a plan to figure out, like, what kind of corporations would I like to work with to help them to take everything to the next level, to help people to build success and fulfillment at the same time. And I started to think about it, and started to write a few things, and then all of a sudden, out of the blue, I met this CEO, and was starting to talk to him, and he said, Yeah, that would be awesome. Send me a proposal. So I wrote a proposal, and then they loved it, and I did my first corporate workshop. Now to me, that's a quantum leap. It was me being in alignment, knowing where I wanted to go, reprogramming my fears and my doubts. Because at first I'm like, why would a corporation take me seriously? Are they going to think that this stuff is too crazy, too out there? So I had to reprogram myself from those beliefs so that I could actually become the person that could teach the program. And once I reprogrammed all of that, then that person showed up. And because they showed up, I quantum leaped into that reality. Because otherwise I would have had to finish writing the proposal call all the corporate companies that I would want to work with, try and find the person that I wanted to speak with. You know, pitch my proposal to, who knows how many people to then hopefully get my first one. But for me, it was getting in alignment, reprogramming all the beliefs that I wasn't good enough for, then that person to drop in, and then all of a sudden, just start doing workshops. And that's basically how my career, my last career, and this career built. If you look back on your life, it's those moments that things happened, that dropped in, that ended up taking you into a different reality, like those chance encounters, or those chance things that would have happened, right? So it's how do we get in such alignment and reprogram the beliefs that are getting in the way so we could have more of those out of the blue opportunities dropping in faster.   Michael Hingson ** 38:01 It goes back to that same issue of looking for the red car. If you're looking for the red car, yes, you will see it. If you're looking to be able to do the corporate workshops, and you think about what you need to do to make it happen, recognizing that you're good enough, it will happen.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 38:20 Yes, exactly. But most of us never think that. Like, my whole life, I never thought I was good enough, you know. So it was always so much proving pleasing. You know, there's the imposter syndrome of somebody that wants to write a book, but then they're saying, Well, you know, who am I to write a book? But all the people that wrote a book never wrote a book until they wrote their first book, yeah, and so it's just just like letting go of the pressure and the expectation and just, I desire to write a book, so I'm going to write a book and I'm going to put it out in there in the world like everybody else did, every single author like you and your book, you wrote the book. That's the only difference from the people that wrote the book and didn't write the book is that you wrote the book, and you put your passion into it, and then it became, you know, such a massive life changing thing for you and so many people that read that book to hear your story well.   Michael Hingson ** 39:12 And now there are three, which is, which is fun, and you know what? Live like a guide dog. It it really goes along very well with the kinds of things you're talking about, because one of the things that we we advise and try to teach and live like a guide dog, is all about doing self analysis, looking at your your day, every day, at the end of the day, what, what worked, what didn't work, even the stuff that worked, what way might we have done to make it better? And the stuff that didn't work again, not a failure, but rather, what happened, and how do we learn from it so that won't happen again? And the reality is that at the end of the day, when we're falling asleep, we're. We have the time to do that if we really do introspection and and choose to do it. But again, it's a choice, and it's adopting the mindset that says we can do that, and it will help to increase, if you will, the mind muscle. And ultimately, the more of it we do, the less we'll fear about life. Mm,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 40:22 hmm, yes, yes. Because the fear comes from us thinking that we're not going to be able to get through it, that it's going to be so painful, that we're not going to be able to handle it, we're going to be so afraid of the disappointment. And so we don't take the leaps and we get and we just live in fear. But when we recognize our power through knowing that we get to harvest the learnings and that we're going to transmute it. We're going to get through it. We're going to turn it into our superpower. We're going to get stronger all the things we've done in the past, we've already we've gotten through so of course, we're going to get through the next thing. So when you know that you have that power to, like you said, go through the day and say what worked and what doesn't work, and how to make it better the next time, you don't have as much fear of the unknown, because you know you're going to get through it just like you did every other time. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 41:12 and you have to make the decision that it'll work,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 41:20 and then you have to make the decision to not beat yourself up,   Michael Hingson ** 41:22 because then you have the decision to not beat yourself up, right? Yeah, because pain   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 41:27 is inevitable, but suffering is something we create by the story we tell ourselves over and over and over again about the pain. And so if we know that, we're not going to beat ourselves up and create it to be suffering, we're not going to be as scared to take that next leap, because we know we'll get through the pain, and we're not going to turn it into suffering, right?   Michael Hingson ** 41:48 And we know that the pain is there to send us a signal, and we need to learn from that signal. Yes, so much. Yes,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 41:59 I love that.   Michael Hingson ** 42:02 So tell me, what is the difference between creating and achieving? Because I think that there, there really is a difference, and we're talking about both of those here in various ways.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 42:14 Yes. So creating is this playfulness. It's like this is what I desire to create. I know where I want to go. I know this goal that I want to do, and I'm going to create on this journey. I'm going to climb this mountain, and I'm going to take this step every day, and I'm going to enjoy the process of it and look at the flowers, and, you know, maybe hang by the lake for a day and then continue to go up there. But achieving is just achieving is proving pleasing. Achieving, right? It's like, I gotta get to the top of this mountain to prove that I've done this to achieve this thing. And so you rush through the journey. And that's where burnout comes from. So I don't think burnout comes from doing burnout comes from who you are when you're doing it, if you're doing the things, like when I'm doing the things out of creation, and because I love doing it, and because I desire to help people and support people, and bring this into reality, I'm having so much fun doing it, but if I'm doing it to achieve these results, if I'm doing it, because if I don't achieve these results, there's something wrong with me, or I'm a failure, or I'm not good enough, my business isn't good enough, And I'm being judged, and I care about other people's judgments, I will be burnt out, because I'm going to push and I, you know, there's so much emotion and exhaustion around the achieving, and then you're constantly just chasing that carrot, and the carrot always moves, because every time you achieve it, you want to climb the next mountain. And so you don't ever get that fulfillment, because then you're just going to go on to the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing is what I did in my last career. I just kept chasing. Kept saying, I'm going to reach this goal, and I reached that goal, and I'm like, Oh no, I don't have this one. There was, there was no fulfillment on the inside, and it was exhausting.   Michael Hingson ** 43:56 Well, you know, I hear often that people who really like what they do have discovered that it's not a job because they just enjoy doing it so much and and that's ultimately what you're really saying, is it's not a job, and I agree with that. It's we need to decide that we like what we do, and if we truly don't like it, then we should be doing it, or we should look at why we don't like it and deal with that, because it is worth doing. Yes,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 44:29 that is a great example, because when I was building this business, I did a lot of freelance work, and in the beginning I did I did the freelance work so I would have predictable money so that I could build this business the way that I desired to build it, so I wouldn't compromise myself. I wouldn't do it because I just need clients to pay the bills and all of these things. It was my passion project, and so I did the freelance work so I had predictable money to be able to pay my bills. And then this was pure creation of what i. Desired to bring to the world, and how I desired to help my clients. And at first, when I was doing these freelance jobs, I'd be so frustrated while I was there, because I'd be like, Oh, I'm here making this money. And I'm so frustrated because I could be working on my business right now, and I could be making the business grow, but I need this money, right? And my mindset turned it into, every time I did that work, you would just drain me. I'd be I'd leave so exhausted, and then I would go home and not have time to work on my other business because I didn't have energy. Until I recognized this is my choice. How lucky am I that I have this freelance job that I get to do that's bringing in this predictable money so that I get to build my dream business. How grateful I am for this freelance work, that I have this opportunity to work these amount of hours and get paid so well, so that I could build my dream business. So I showed up to those jobs in a different energy. I showed up with pure gratitude that I have that that I get to show up to this job and I'm and to do my best job, because they're giving me this opportunity to build this business. And when I did that, not only did I have more energy, that job started to become really easy, like so before, there was always fires to put out, and there was always drama and everything. But after, I shifted this mindset to gratitude. And I started to just say, How can I serve? How can I be here and be my best self, because I'm grateful for this job. Then all of a sudden I would come on shift, and everything would just work. And like, the dramas would go away, the fires would go away, things would be easy. And then some of the other people would say, I want to be on Jocelyn shift, because whenever she shows up, it's like easy, but that was from gratitude. That was from gratitude, from showing up, you know, wanting to serve. And it shifted my reality. And then I had all this energy, because I felt so good. And sometimes we'd finish early. A lot of times we'd finish early, or the job would be so easy that when I came home, I had energy to work on my business. And then that's how I shifted my business. So it's really the it's not what we do, it's who we are when we're doing it. What are we feeling on the inside that we're then projecting out, that people are then responding to   Michael Hingson ** 47:14 and and the reality is, some of the fires may have still been there, but they're not fires anymore,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 47:21 yes, yes, exactly, exactly, because I perceive them in a different way,   Michael Hingson ** 47:27 right? Exactly, which is the whole point?   47:30 Yes, yes, I love that. So   Michael Hingson ** 47:33 how do we get people to recognize when they're experiencing burnout, much less. How do we get them to change their mindset, to eliminate the burnout process?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 47:49 It just comes from their choice. It comes from their choice to to decide how they desire to see it. So, I mean, a lot of it, too comes from reprogramming. So, I mean, that's what I do in my programs, right? Is that if there are with burnout, we just discover where is it coming from? Like, is it coming from the pushing, the pleasing, achieving, the not being good enough, the worried what people are going to think, the failure, like all the stuff, the hoping that it's going to work out, afraid that it's not going to work out, because that's all the stuff that we leak our energy to. Once we discover what that is and we reprogram it so you don't have that you can just do it as a task. You show up and you do a task. One of my NLP teachers told me something that was so powerful, which was he said that the best, best basketball player in the world also has the highest amount of missed shots in the world, and that's why he's the best basketball player, because he just takes the shot. He doesn't beat himself up every single time he takes the shot. He's just taking a shot and a shot and a shot and a shot and a shot. He's playing to win. He's not playing not to lose. And so there's a difference in that energy. And so once you discover what that is, you get to then shift your mindset. So we it's very it's, it's quite easy to kind of find where the triggers are coming from. It's like, where are you getting pissed off? Where are you getting frustrated? Right? Like, those are the triggers. Then it's about, how do we then remove the triggers with whatever tool that you have, with mindset, with reprogramming, with hypnosis, with quantum physics, like whatever it's going to be, podcasts, listening to these things to come up with a new story, and then the resilience to create that new story to be your new story. So every time it doesn't go the way that you had planned, not getting caught up in saying, Oh, see it happened again, saying, okay, oh well, I'm not fully in that new programming yet, and so it's still showing up a little bit. But how do I harvest the learnings? And then how do I pivot? And then how do I do something different? And you just keep doing that until your reality eventually shifts. This   Michael Hingson ** 49:56 is so freaky. The other day, it was like yesterday, or. Monday or Sunday. I can't remember which day, but I was thinking about basketball players and some of the really famous, good basketball players, and thinking, why are they such horrible free throw shooters? And why are they in a in a sense, why is there a percentage what it is, and I came to the same conclusion that you talked about, but it's just kind of funny that the discussion in my brain was there and now, here it is again. But it's true. It's all about being willing to take the shot and   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 50:34 just taking the shot and not putting the meaning on it. It's when we put the meaning on it that it exhausts us. If you think about taking a shot, it's fine, but the minute you think about taking the shot, but hoping you're going to make it or not going to make it, because what are people going to think and what is that going to mean about you, and all that other stuff, all of a sudden it becomes a big ball of energy that you're leaking instead of I'm just taking the shot, because I know I'm going to get in, I'm going to get one in. So the more shots I take, you know, like Disney, he got rejected 33 times before the 34th time he got the loan. But if he just every single time, like, you know, gave up, we would not have what we have. But he just kept going in and doing it. And if you know that on the 34th time you're going to get accepted. How fast would you keep going back to banks and saying, Hey, until you get the loan right?   Michael Hingson ** 51:27 Well, and the issue with the shots, every time you take a shot and miss, if you're taking the shot, to continue to take the shot, as opposed to this one has to be the one to go in. You're also, I think, subconsciously, studying, well, why didn't that shot go in? What do I learn? Because this shot didn't go in, or the next one goes in, why did that one go in? What do I do to replicate that and become more effective?   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 52:00 Yeah. How do I harvest the learnings and pivot and do it better next time? Yeah? And if you just focus on the solution versus the problem, you'll get there, right? Yeah, okay, well, and the more that you get it in, you know what that feels like. So you get to replicate that again next time, right? And the more that you don't, then you find, like Edison said, he found 1000 he didn't fail. He found 1000 different ways how not to   Michael Hingson ** 52:28 do something right.   52:30 Exactly.   Michael Hingson ** 52:33 You know it is, it is so true, and it's all about that's why I continue to say there's no such thing as failure. The other thing I used to say about myself because I like to listen to my speeches. I record them and listen to them, and I do it because I want to learn what what worked, what didn't work. How can I do this better? And I always used to say, I'm my own worst critic. But I always thought that was a negative sort of thing, and literally only within about the last 14 or 15 months have I started to say, in reality, I'm my own best teacher. It's a much more positive and open way of doing it, and it makes listening all that much more fun and exciting. By the way,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 53:14 I love that, and that's the creating versus achieving, right? Like, that's the different energy. Tweak that when you're doing it now you enjoy it versus before you were beating yourself up, right,   Michael Hingson ** 53:26 right? Very much. So yeah, and that's, of course, the issue. So you, you've you continue to celebrate the fact that you were a model, and now you've gone on to a different life, and you're continuing to create and enhance that life. How do you how do you deal with both of those lives? You You really have adopted this celebration right across the board? I think,   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 53:57 yeah, I don't see it as different parts of, I mean, I just see them all as different, like, it's just a different   Michael Hingson ** 54:04 chapter. It's progressing, right? Yeah, and that's what I thought after   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 54:07 was each chapter was exactly what it was, and it was so amazing, and I and, and the next chapter gets to be more amazing, and the next chapter gets to be more amazing, and because it's an evolution over your entire lifetime. And so you just keep evolving. You know, there's a post out there about, I can't remember the ages, but like all these people that open businesses in their 40s, their 50s, their 60s, Walmart and, you know, Kentucky Fried Chicken, and all these different companies that didn't actually like they didn't create it. They tried. They were creating things, but it didn't hit until later in the years. And most people think, Oh, we get to this age, we retire. We're done. But that's not true. We get to keep creating our entire life. We get to keep evolving our entire life. We get to keep climbing more mountains. I've climbed that mountain that was awesome. Now. Me climb this mountain, not because I have to, not because I need to prove myself, but because I get to, right. If you can shift your words from need, have, should to I get to that is the difference between creating and achieving. It's like I get to do this, like I get to show up. I used to when I was starting this new business. I used to not like social media at all, and I just wish that I could just have clients and coach and mentor, because that's all I love to do. I didn't like to, you know, do the marketing and do the social media and do all the rest of the stuff. I was just like, I wish I could just receive clients and coach and mentor, because that's what I love, and that's my passion. And then I realized I can't do that. I can go work for a corporate company, and I can do that, but I don't have time freedom to be with my child. I don't have I'm Max capped out about how much I can earn or create because I'm working for someone else, or I can go off on my own. And I get to get good at marketing. I get to get good at social media. I get to get good at all the other things, as well as getting good at getting better at coaching and mentoring, so that I can be my own boss, that so that I can be with my child and travel and take him and work from my computer around the world, so that I can do speaking engagements around the world, and that I can build this business as big as I desire, the way that I desire. So everything then became a get to so then when I showed up for social media, I was excited for it, versus like, Oh, this is so frustrating. I wish this wasn't part of my job. So you, once you shift the get oh, everything opens up, and then everything starts working as well, because your energy opens up and we get to learn, yes, exactly, we get to learn and now, now in a lot of different things, thanks to that,   Michael Hingson ** 56:51 there you are, right, exactly, which makes a whole lot of sense. Changing your belief really changes your life, changing your mindset and looking for that open way to allow you to deal with all the things that come along, can they get to, as opposed to have to way certainly just enhances your whole outlook.   Jocelyn Sandstrom ** 57:16 Yes, absolutely, yeah. And it can change overnight. If you can just look at everything in your life that you're grateful for, that you a younger version of you dreamed about, that you now have in your life, even your phone, your computer like you wanted that now you have it, but you take it for granted until you lose it, and then you don't appreciate it till you get it back. And you're like, Oh, I love it so much, right? Like, if we just shift from looking from everything that's wrong with our life to everything that's incredible, we get to be full of gratitude while we're creating our next level that frequency, gratitude is this most powerful frequency. It opens synchronicity. It helps you to become magnetized, so that people are then magnetized to you. If you think about going into a shop and there's like, this grumpy person who's complaining all the time, versus this, like charismatic, happy, loving life, loving life, salesperson, which one are you going to be attracted to working with, you're going to be attracted to working with the one that looks for the positive outcome, that doesn't see limitations, that sees ways to transcend them. You know, that's not complaining about all the things that are going wrong, but showing you what could go right instead. And so then your business opens up as well. Because you're magnetized, you start meeting people that want to come and talk to you, you know, like you could be in a restaurant, and you're just drawn to looking at someone that walks into the room and you don't know why, you don't know who they are, what they do, you just there something about their energy draws you to them, and it's that energy that becomes their calling card. And so when you are in this gratitude and this loving of life and not seeing limitations. You just see opportunities to grow. You become magnetized. People want to be around that. People are inspired by that. So now you start attracting opportunities into your life, instead of, you know, trying to force and push and chase them. And it goes back to the saying that I absolutely love, which is, instead of chasing butterflies, build your own garden, so the butterflies come to you. Yeah, so, and it's also like that other saying that the grass is always greener on the other side, until you start watering your own grass. Like those two sayings completely changed my life. Yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 59:38 Well, you know, I, when I was growing up, I lived about 55 miles west of here in a town called Palmdale, and I now live in Victorville. But when I was growing up, I described Victorville as compared to Palmdale that only had like about 2700 people. I described Victorville as not even a speck on a race. Our scope compared to Palmdale. I never imagined myself once I moved away, moving back to Victorville or to this whole area, but my wife became ill with double pneumonia in 2014 she recovered from that. Family started saying, you really ought to move down c

In April of 1975, Communists succeeded in overwhelming their enemies to take over Vietnam. The last major city to fall was Saigon. That event is one of those historic times many remember who lived through it as well as those of us who only experienced it through Television and newspapers. Our guest today, Miki Nguyen, was six and a half years old when he and his family escaped from Saigon on a Chinook Helicopter piloted by his father.   Miki willingly tells us his story and that of his family who all escaped and came to America. Miki tells us of his growing up in a new land and how he eventually was given the opportunity to bring his father's story to life. Miki's dad wanted to write a book about what happened in 1975 as well as describing his life. He passed ten years ago and was unable to publish his book. Last year, Miki found his father's writings and undertook to bring his father's story to life. The book is entitled “The Last Flight Out”.   As Miki tells us the story of his family's flight from Saigon he also provides pictorial representations of what happened. If you watch this episode on YouTube you will get to see those pictures.   Personally, I can relate to Miki's story as in so many ways it parallels my own experiences on September 11, 2001. I hope you like and learn much from this week's episode. Let me know your thoughts please.       About the Guest:   Miki Nguyen is a storyteller dedicated to preserving the legacy of his father, Lieutenant Colonel Ba Van Nguyen, a heroic figure whose daring escape from Saigon during the Fall of Vietnam in 1975 was immortalized in the 2015 Oscar-nominated documentary Last Days in Vietnam. As the son of a South Vietnamese Air Force officer, Miki's life has been shaped by his family's extraordinary journey from the chaos of war to rebuilding their lives in America. Today, he shares stories of courage, sacrifice, and resilience in his late father's memoir "The Last Flight Out" to commemorate 50 years since the Fall of Saigon. Born into a world of upheaval, Miki witnessed firsthand the harrowing final days of the Vietnam War as a child, fleeing Saigon with his family in a dramatic helicopter evacuation to the USS Kirk. His father's bravery under fire and unwavering commitment to saving loved ones left an indelible mark on Miki, inspiring him to compile and share his father's stories decades later. Through The Last Flight Out, Miki bridges the past and present, offering readers an intimate glimpse into the sacrifices of war, the challenges of resettlement, and the quiet strength of his mother, Nho Nguyen, who anchored the family through unimaginable adversity. As a speaker, Miki captivates audiences with a narrative that transcends history, weaving universal themes of resilience, cultural identity, and leadership into his talks. Whether addressing corporate teams, educational institutions, on Podcasts, or cultural organizations, he draws parallels between his family's journey and modern-day challenges, emphasizing the power of hope and community in overcoming obstacles. His presentations, enriched with archival photos and personal anecdotes, resonate deeply with veterans, immigrants, and anyone seeking inspiration to navigate life's uncertainties. Miki is committed to amplifying his father's legacy and honoring the courageous individuals who shaped his family's journey—from Captain Paul Jacobs and the USS Kirk crew, whose heroism ensured their evacuation during Saigon's fall, to the Lutheran church members in Seattle who provided sanctuary and support as they rebuilt their lives in America. Through the memoir, speaking engagements, and other partnerships, Miki invites audiences to reflect on these unsung stories of courage and resilience while embracing a future defined by empathy and unity. Ways to connect Miki:   Email: mdn425@gmail.com / miki@nguyenvanba.com Website: https://nguyenvanba.com/miki/ Instagram: instagram.com/last.flight.out.nvb/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@mikinguyen44   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello everyone. Once again. Wherever you happen to be, I am your host, Mike Hingson, and you are listening to Unstoppable Mindset, mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and as we've defined unexpected here on the podcast, it's anything that has to do with anything other than inclusion and diversity. A few weeks ago, I got an email from a friend of mine and someone I work with at yesterday usa.net it's a radio station that plays old radio shows all day, and anyway, Walden Hughes, who we really need to get on this podcast as well. Told me about Miki when, because Miki expressed, or Walden has expressed an interest in having Miki on yesterday USA, and Miki had an interesting story, and has an interesting story to tell, and I thought that it would be fun to bring him on to unstoppable mindset, because his father and family were basically, if you will, as you will hear on the last flight out of Saigon in Vietnam when that war ended in 1975 so that's 50 years ago. Anyway, Miki generously agreed to come on. And so here we are. So Miki, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Really appreciate it and looking forward to having a chance to chat.   Miki Ngyuen ** 02:47 Yeah, thank you, Michael, just really honored and appreciate the opportunity to be on your platform and to share with you in your audience, my father and my family story. The this is a story that has been told around the dinner table for many, many years. And as we are here now in early 2025 this marks, this will mark at the end of April here, coming up the 50 year remembrance, as you noted, the the fall of Saigon and so yeah, again, just really happy to be here. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 03:27 let's start as I love to do, and I know it kind of is part of the story, but tell us a little about kind of the early Miki growing up and and things that you might want to talk about from childhood and so on.   Miki Ngyuen ** 03:38 Yeah, I we in at the end of April, 1975 I was six and a half years old, and so, to answer your question, I grew up on a military base, basically my dad towards the end there, Lieutenant Colonel was a pilot for the south of Vietnamese Air Force, and he flew various Chinooks. The the one that we're referencing here is the the Chinook helicopter, CH 47 and so this is young childhood for me, growing up on the barracks, the oldest of three, three kids, brother Mecca and baby sister Mina. And this was a childhood where very curious about things the world around me, on the barracks, there were a lot of heavy artillery. And one story, my mom would sure it's a kid dragging home a box of of ammunition, just to say, you know, Hey, Mom, look what I found laying around. So this was a. In early childhood, growing up during a a war torn country back in those days,   Michael Hingson ** 05:07 yeah, certainly couldn't have been easy to do. So, what schooling did you have while you were still in Vietnam?   Miki Ngyuen ** 05:14 Oh, this is six, six and a half, just kind regarding kindergarten. Yeah, pretty, pretty much. So the Vietnamese that I was able to learn, you know, was just talking with parents, mom and dad, early kindergarten schooling. But otherwise, my Vietnamese now as an adult is not as strong as I would like it to be, but you know the reality of coming to America at six and a half seven. Grew up post war all American high school, so yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 05:53 now were your parents from Vietnam originally? Yes, yes. Okay, so it it had to be tough for you, and it had to really be tough for them, and I'm sure that they were worried about you and your brother and sister a lot and and dealing with all the things that you all had to deal with, that had to really be a challenge. Did they as as you were growing up in America and so on. Did they talk about, or want to talk much about, what your what your life was like, your heritage and so on, from Vietnam?   Miki Ngyuen ** 06:31 No, absolutely. It was my my father, my mom's philosophy, to always continue to keep our culture and our heritage and the things that you know was good about our culture, the Vietnamese culture, and to continue it forward while living, trying to assimilate and live here in in the United States. So growing up, it was straddling of both cultures, both Western and the Vietnamese Eastern culture as well, during our upbringing. And so it continues to be strong today, where for my own kids, you know, we continue to celebrate and our Vietnamese heritage and culture. Although American Vietnamese, I hold a US passport. My blood still runs with a lot of the Vietnamese culture that was raised on. It's   Michael Hingson ** 07:32 an interesting paradox, or paradox is probably the wrong word to use, but you have an interesting dichotomy you have to deal with. You're from Vietnam, you embrace the Vietnamese culture, but you live in America, and unfortunately, in our society today, we have a government that has been pushing so much on anything that isn't really American, isn't really American. And how do you how do you deal with that? What do you think about that, that whole concept, and that, ultimately, there are those who would say, well, you're you're not American because you didn't come from here, and that's a frustrating thing. But I'd be curious to get your thought, well, it's   Miki Ngyuen ** 08:17 to say it's a it's the same conversation as you know, the Ellis Island story, right? The only, the only folks that I would say that can claim that they're here with Native Americans, everybody else migrated either east or west, from Europe or from Asia or from the Middle East or Africa to get here. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 08:36 Yeah, it is. And from, from my thoughts and perspective, it's, it's a joy that you, you have two cultures to be able to celebrate and and work with, which gives you a broader perspective on the world as a whole. I grew up in America. I didn't really do a great job of learning foreign languages, although I took High School German and I learned some Spanish, and I actually took a year of Japanese in college. But still, my whole grounding is is in America, but I do love to go to other countries and see and get to experience other cultures, even though I know I don't live there, but I, and I do come back here, but I, but I think that what you bring is a great perspective for people to understand a whole part of the world that's different than what they're used To, which is a good thing.   Miki Ngyuen ** 09:41 Well, that's why they, they call America the great melting pot, right? We bring, we want to, we want to bring our best. We, you know, there can be conversations around refugees and immigration stories here and there, but. I think for the most part, you know, diverse cultures, different folks coming from other parts of the you know, we contributed to America, whether it be through bringing, you know, food or arts or ideologies, and that's what makes America, you know, strong, is just people bringing their best here. And sure, there's going to be negatives here and there. But you know, if we're come from a place of goodness, a place of positivity and working with each other. I think the spirit of America and the spirit of the great melting pot here can can continue to flourish and be strong from that standpoint. And   Michael Hingson ** 10:52 I and I think it absolutely is exactly what you said. It's the melting pot, it's the spirit, and that's what we need to remember, because that is what has always made this country so great, and will continue to, no matter what some may say. And I'm glad that we we have the the depth of overall culture, which really is made up of so many other cultures. When you got to America, what was it like then going to school here and finishing your growing up period here?   Miki Ngyuen ** 11:30 It was a, I don't want to use the word struggle. My parents struggled more. But for myself coming to the US here it was quickly to assimilate, you know, that's the word that just simply out of survival, simply out of just making friends and keeping the friends that, you know, I had growing up in first grade and second grade and so on. And growing up in the mid 70s here looking different than the rest of the white kids, you know, in elementary school, I got called all sorts of racial names, and so I know on your, you know, with your your message of disability, and   Miki Ngyuen ** 12:25 functioning in, you know, I had my own struggles as well in terms of just being different, you know, then, then the next kid in elementary school. So, but we learned to adapt, we learned to maneuver, and we learned to communicate and develop social skills to blend in, and again, that word assimilate, just to survive. So   Michael Hingson ** 12:51 where did you Where did you all settle once you got to the US? Where did you go to school? Oh,   Miki Ngyuen ** 12:58 so we're located here on the outskirts of Seattle, suburbs of Seattle area, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 13:06 I remember when so many people were coming over and from Vietnam, and they had some refugee encampments for A while. I was contacted by a church group, because at a local area near where I was attending college at the University of California at Irvine, there was such a place, and there was a blind person there, and they wanted to get this person, that was a young man, to meet blind people. So I went out. We even brought him a transistor radio. He didn't speak great English, but we were able to communicate. And that was probably the closest I came to dealing with, in a sense, all the things that all of you dealt with. So I but I do understand we as a collective society, sometimes don't really deal with difference as well as we ought to we we don't recognize that the very fact that we have some things that are difference is what makes us stronger when we embrace the fact that everyone has their own set of gifts and challenge and challenges to deal with, right? Exactly,   Miki Ngyuen ** 14:22 yeah, exactly. The just to provide more context, yeah, the there was a church across the crest, Lutheran Church here in Bellevue, out about 30 minutes from Seattle, that sponsored our family and yeah, that's how that's how we we ended up here in the story of my father and my my family was no the only thing different, because during the. April, end of April timeframe in 1975 the communists finally took over, as many of your audience know, you know, Saigon and the rest of Vietnam, and we had to, we had to get the heck out of there, because if my dad would have gotten captured by the communists, he would have been set in jail for a long time. And so our, our or worse, yes, exactly or worse, our, our family story is no different than anybody else's refugee boat people story coming out of Vietnam. The only difference was what my dad did as a pilot, what he did to to rescue our family and his crew's family and the maneuver that he executed at sea with a large Chinook helicopter, so much that it was was honored 10 years ago to share the same story with in an Oscar nominated film last year in Vietnam, written and produced by Rory Kennedy, and so there are so many, there's so many other Vietnamese refugee stories, but this one was, was our particular family story, and it's the story of my father's bravery, courage, our family's resiliency, among other various leadership kinds of themes. So that's, that's the premise of things.   Michael Hingson ** 16:27 Yeah, I understand. Well, what, what did you say you went to college? Where'd you go   Miki Ngyuen ** 16:35 to? Studied engineering at the University of Washington here in the Seattle area,   Michael Hingson ** 16:42 didn't, didn't try to help the basketball team, huh? Just, just checking, no, it's   16:50 too short for basketball, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 16:52 Well, you know. And of course, in in the March, April, time frame of every year, we have March Madness, which is really crazy. I was disappointed to see Gonzaga get out of it so quickly. But oh well, of course, most people don't even know where Gonzaga is. I actually had the the lovely opportunity to speak there once, so it was kind of fun. So I've been there so anyway, well, so you went off and studied in engineering, and that's what you did after college.   Miki Ngyuen ** 17:23 No, I after college, I was an engineer for a couple years, and then pivoted over into the marketing side of things and focused in in technology. I mean, from your background, you also, you know, did sales, especially with your story 20 plus years ago, worked in technology sales, and your involvement with a tech company today accessible. So yeah, that's, that's, yeah, that's my. My background is tech marketing,   Michael Hingson ** 17:55 well, and I started out doing tech stuff, helping to work in the development of the original reading machine for the blind that Ray Kurzweil developed, but that ended up going into sales for a variety of reasons. So I appreciate where you're coming from and and feel a lot for the kinds of experiences that you've had. Well, why don't you tell us a little bit about what happened with your father, and the whole, the whole story of the escape, the last flight out, flying out with the Chinook and all that that happened. Oh   Miki Ngyuen ** 18:32 yes, so let's, let's get into let me go ahead and share the some pictures here. And I, as I told you, for you know, pictures worth 1000 words and but I'll narrate it in such a way that all audiences can can get into the the whole story. So this was, this was a moment again. This is a family story that was shared around the dinner table for many, many years post 1975 and I'm sharing the story through the lens of a six and a half year old boy experiencing what I saw and what I what I went through, and the picture that we're showing here on the First slide here is just images of my father, Bob van win, who, in the early, early 60s, got an opportunity after college to test and train to and finally got admitted into the the Air Force. And in the mid 60s, got an opportunity to come to Fort Rucker and study and fly helicopters, and came to America again in 69 to for additional training. And so my father grew up, family, grandmother, education was of utmost important. Importance, as well as family and community. And so towards the towards and the next slide I'm showing here is towards April 29 1975 we see iconic images in time, Life magazine, in the media here in the US, images of the Communists the North tanks rolling into Saigon and overtaking the city. And in the film, the documentary, again last season Vietnam, we see images. We see video clips of folks trying to get into the US Embassy to get access to a helicopter to get out of there, because folks, people that were serving working with American or the American personnel, anybody that was involved in the south fighting against communism would, have, you know, been in jail or put into, you know, a tough situation post war, if they gotten captured. And so we see a mass chaos, mass exodus trying to get out of of the city there. And so it was my my dad's knew that had he stayed and not figured things out, he would have been either killed or put in jail for a long time, and so he, at this point, waited out for orders from his commanding officers and his leadership at all of the top brass took off with their family trying to figure out how to get out themselves. And my dad, with the Chinook, went and picked up our family in at this moment in time of mom, myself, brother and sister, we were at my grandma's house. Uh, we've been there for about a couple weeks to get out of the the military base that we were on, and at Grandma's house. I remember the night before, my dad coming to get us a bombing and machine guns rattling around the neighborhood and around the city there. So it was pretty tense for our family at that time, my dad with the helicopter, Chinook helicopter in I'm sure you and your in the audience, you driving down the road or over, flying over your house, you hear a Chinook. Is very thunderous of and so it's a big equipment, big, big aircraft. And what he did was land at the Chinook in front of my grandma's house play a play field, and blew, you know, a lot of the roofs and commotion, and folks around the neighborhood were just surprised. You know of this helicopter landing in the middle of the middle, middle of sea.   Michael Hingson ** 23:22 Did you know that he was coming? Yes,   Miki Ngyuen ** 23:25 my dad had told my mom the days earlier that I'll be coming to get you. We'll figure this out, because at this moment in time, there's probably no way that we're going to survive the the Communists were coming and get ready. Get, you know, pack the bags, get get things ready and but we didn't know that he would come in in such a way. We figured maybe he would come in a vehicle, the military vehicle, to come in and get us. But he actually came with a with the with the Chinook, and landed right in front of the right in front of the house.   Michael Hingson ** 23:58 How many people was the Chinook hold. Well, at this time, in front   Miki Ngyuen ** 24:02 of my grandson, just our immediate family and but it would hold a lot of folks, a lot of folks. And towards the towards later on, we'll get to that point. But towards it we had like about 1715, 1617, people, crew member, their their girlfriends and family in in the in the helicopter. Yeah, that was what I was wondering,   Michael Hingson ** 24:28 because you said it was big. So I was just trying to get a perspective on what big really meant. And that's why I asked how many people it would hold. Oh,   Miki Ngyuen ** 24:36 yeah, understood, yeah. So the Chinook is probably, it is probably the largest helicopter in the, you know, the fleet of helicopters Arsenal so but he landed hatch opens up on the back, and the Chinook as a is a double, double, uh. Uh, a rotor, double prop helicopter. And family ran to the back of the the helicopter. They closed the hatch up, and my my father, accelerated, you know, the the engines and lifted up and out of, out of the area there. And the thinking was to rendezvous up with a few other of his squadron crew members and to head further south of the hot zone, Saigon, and to load up on the food and ration and gas so that we would continue further south and maybe perhaps lay low, find an island to just figure out what to do next, from that standpoint, and that's that's where We actually did was, along with our family, he had co pilot, and he had his gunner and the mechanic in their, you know, their their family members or girlfriends in the in the Chinook, once we loaded up On, on all of the, the food and everything fuel lifted up and out. And at the same time, he heard my father continued to monitor the the the radio communication. And he heard that there were US Navy, US ships out in the Pacific, now out east in the Pacific. And so he figured, we'll take a risk and head in in that direction, towards the the ocean there, and he didn't know exactly, you know, the exact GPS location, or the exact whereabouts of it, particularly, just headed out there blind and trying to find whatever option he could find. And out in the distant there, he sees a ship. And he goes, Well, this is my first chance. I'm going to go approach it and see if I'm able to land on it or figure out what to do next from there. And so heads in that direction. And we see, he sees a a uh, what we know now today is the frigate, and it wasn't, it was too small. It wasn't big enough to, you know, it wasn't like a an aircraft carrier, where you can actually land on it. And so the the next slide that I'm showing here, basically, as he approaches this, this ship, the crewman below, the US Navy crewman below was waving him like, you know, waving him away. Don't, don't, don't come here. You're simply you're too big. There's no way that you can land on on this ship. And so he kept circling the ship eventually found out the name of the ship was named the USS Kirk, and the captain was Captain Paul Jacobs. And my father continued to circle and figure out some way to, you know, ask for help. And we see in the one of the images here, that on the port side, the left side of the of the Chinook, my my mom holding up eight month old baby onto the the window part to let the crew in below know that, hey, we're not, you know, we're, we're we got kids, we got family on here. We need, we need help. And so eventually, what my dad was able to speak with the captain below, and both the captain and my father were able to coordinate the next step here, and which was to allow my father to hover right next to right behind the ship the stern to allow folks to to exit the helicopter. But prior to that, the slide that I'm showing here shows many other Vietnamese pilots and their families with smaller, smaller helicopters, the Huey helicopters landing, able to land on on the deck. And after they land, they would push the smaller helicopters over to into the ocean. And the continuing to do that as more families came on on, you know, was able to land. Uh, the next slide I'm showing here is the actual Captain Paul Jacobs throughout, throughout this whole narrative, my father is, is, is the person that my father's my hero. But there are other heroes throughout this whole story as well, and one of those I want to acknowledge is Captain Paul Jacobs, where we see in this image here, he was on the deck. He he wasn't in the command tower, directing, telling his, you know, crew, what to do. He was actually on the deck helping with his crew members, pushing and telling folks, as well as himself, jumping in and pushing smaller helicopters over the the side, making room for to clear, clear the the ship's deck. And so he's an outstanding individual, a hero in my book as well. And so once the deck was clear enough so that my dad was able to hover, what he did was basically fly the Chinook horizontal backwards to maintain the same steady high height, as well as a safe distance away from from the USS Kirk. And we found out later on that the this particular ship of frigate was a submarine destroyer. So it had all of the high tech equipment back, sonars, radars, all of the antenna and so it's very my father's had to be very careful in terms of how close he could have gotten, how close he could get to keeping the the distance as well as allowing folks to to jump down. And that's that's what we did. He kept it steady. And he was hovering about 1315, feet above the deck, and tells the co pilot to open up the starboard door and so that we would have access to jump. The picture that I'm showing you here is an illustration by Adam colts showing myself my mom, family members crews jumping from this Chinook down onto many of the crew members below, catching us as we as we exited. We also have an illustration from that I clipped out from the New York Times doing an illustration of my mom dropping a baby sister onto the crew, the crewmen below, and many years later, many years later on, at a reunion with the crew member and the captain of the USS Kirk, one of the men below, Kent Chipman, introduced himself to us as one of the sailors below catching us. It was like you described as, like catching a a basketball coming out of the the helicopter. And so once everybody exited out, he my father told the co pilot to make sure that everybody safely gotten out, make sure that everybody had cleared the the rear of the helicopter, and then he finally told the the co pilot to go ahead and and jump himself now onto the deck. And so I remember, it's the last thing I remember as a six and a half year old boy who was being ushered inside, inside the the ship. They didn't want any kids running around on the deck. Yeah. And the last thing that we see, you know, is seeing my father hovering away from the ship. Now is just him by himself at this point in this large helicopter.   Miki Ngyuen ** 34:04 So it wasn't, it wasn't until, it wasn't until maybe, like half hour later that we we see my father again. But from from, from the point where he had to hover. After everybody jumped off the helicopter. He hovered away from the the ship. And at this point there was, you know, the only option here was to get a remove himself from from the helicopter. He wasn't going to go back to land or go back to the city. His family was on the ship now, and he need to be with his family. And so what he did was take the Chinook about 100 yards away from the ship, and hovered above the water, and at that point, kept the helicopter steady, and while at the same time taking off his.   Miki Ngyuen ** 45:00 Did the heavy lifting 100% they in so many ways, in terms of when we talk about a challenge or an obstacle, they had my mom had to learn a completely new, different language, had to start all over again, not knowing exactly what their future was going to be, but at the same time, you know the freedom, the freedom in America and what America represented was just an opportunity that they knew that even though it was a struggle as a challenge to re readapt, to assimilate, learn a new language, find a new career, it was still a lot better than the other option, yeah. And then to answer your question, as for me, as a six, six and a half year old boy, or six, yeah, seven year old boy, you're right. It was, it was more of an adventure than it was anything in terms of fear, because, again, as I said, my mom and dad took the burden of all of that paved the way for myself, brother and sister, but throughout my life, up to that point, it was just an adventure to jump off from the helicopter was, to me, like jumping, you know, playing around a tree, jumping off a tree. But for my mom, who had to take the courage to drop a baby, her baby from from an airplane, and the fear of change, the anxiety of of in the struggle of war and everything else at a different at a different level that my hat's off to both my parents from that time.   Michael Hingson ** 46:57 I'm sure that, in a sense, while things were happening, your mom didn't analyze it. And think about the time of war, she did what she had to do, and your father did what they had to do. And then after the fact, they obviously thought back about it and and probably had times of going, Wow, what? What did we do? And not in a regretful way, but at the time something is happening, you do what you have to do, and then you think about it later. And I guess for you, when did all of this really become real and a story? Well, not a story worth telling, but when did it really emotionally all sink into you, what really happened? Because that had to happen, obviously, later than that night   Miki Ngyuen ** 47:48 it it became super, super real for me. 2009 window discovered, again from mister Jan Herman, finding my father's story and sharing with us the pictures from the US Navy. Yeah, because, because, up to that point, from 1975 up to 2009 this was a story that I grew up throughout my life and experienced a bit of it jumping, but the the things that my father shared in terms of doing the ditch maneuver and growing up as a boy, listening to him talk with his buddies around the dinner table. Or when they would have reunions, they would my, you know, I would be, you know, seen and not heard, type of a family situation, just, you know, listening into my father's conversation with his his buddies, hearing, hearing about it, and then finally, seeing pictures from the US Navy in 2009 that was when it really, really kicked in. Because as a kid growing up, I would share these stories. Friends would ask me, how'd you come you know, where are you from, and how did you get here? And I would share, you know, how we got to America and escape from escape from Vietnam. But it didn't really hit until 2009 once we actually saw the images that my dad was, he was, he did what he said, and we got pictures to prove it. So, yeah, yeah. And I want to touch upon the thing they mentioned a few minutes ago, in terms of my mom and dad and I know that you're, you're an Eagle Scout. I I never went that far in terms of Scott. I went to second class, so outstanding for you, going all the way as an ego scout. But the one thing that I learned from Scott is that word always be prepared. Always, always be prepared. I teach my kids that as well. And so in terms of my my mom and dad, they you can be prepared, you know, for the worst case scenario. And that's what actually happened in the end. The South Vietnam lost to commun to the communists, and at that. Point, and I'm going to weave in the story that you've shared as well in your on your platform, in terms of that day 911 where you had to, you had to do what you had to do with with your dog and and with everybody else trying to figure out how to get out of that, try to exit that building for safety and things like that. And so it was one of those things where you just had to, you can only prepare so much. And in the moment of crisis, or in that moment of of things crumbling literally around you, whether it be your country or a building crumbling around you, you have to figure out you have to, you know, cleverness, communication, working with others around you, teamwork, all of that had to come into play for survival. And so both, I mean, you know, both of our, my, your story, my my family, my father and my mother's story, myself as just a kid tagging along was, was that trying to figure out some way to exit yourself from a moment of dire, a moment of chaos, and so I can, I can under, I can resonate, I can, I can appreciate that   Michael Hingson ** 51:15 well. And the thing is that the thing you have to mostly prepare for is, is your mind, and prepare is your mind. It's and it's how you prepare to deal with things that may happen you you can't, as I tell people, there's no way to train someone to deal, as such, with a falling building, or, as you say, losing a country, but you can prepare your mind to be able to say, I can do this, and I don't need to allow the fear of what's going on to stop me. I can use that as a powerful tool to help that preparation is the most important thing we can do for anything that happens in our lives, and that's what we really have to focus on. Because I've been asked many times questions like, well, you know, how do you teach your dog how to escape from a tough, falling building or a tall building like you did in the World Trade Center? Yeah, that's not what you that's not what you teach the dog to deal with. You teach the dog to focus. You teach yourself to focus, and you teach both of you where you are, the leader, you teach yourself how to deal with whatever situation comes along and worry only about the things that you have control over, because the rest isn't going to going to help you to worry about because you don't have control over it.   Miki Ngyuen ** 52:48 Right, right, right. Yeah, go ahead. No, I just letting that sink in. I yeah, there's ever a time to be very present, very calm, very cool and collected. Because once, once you start, once you start, you know lack of a better term, freaking out or losing it mentally, things could fall apart even, even worse. And so staying calm under pressure is critical,   Michael Hingson ** 53:21 which doesn't mean that you're not afraid, but you use the fear in a different way than you would if you allowed yourself to, if you will freak out, which is really the whole point. Well, so you you clearly have written this book. Why did you write it? No, I expect to help. What do you expect to help? To get from it   Miki Ngyuen ** 53:42 Sure. I again, I did not write this book. It was my father. Why   Michael Hingson ** 53:46 did you? Why did you decide to bring it forward? Oh,   Miki Ngyuen ** 53:52 number one, to honor, to honor my father's wishes. Number one, it, and number two, along with that, is to pass down to his great grandkids, and you know, their their kids, his story, our family story of how we came to America. This was the for the Vietnamese community. This was our Ellis Island story. And number one, to archive and to honor my my my father. Number two, the third one really is, this is a story that it doesn't matter what background, what obstacle, what struggle you are in. These are stories of courage, compassion, heroism, stories of suspense, love stories that my dad wrote as well. And there's stories of lessons learned about communism, stories of betrayal. And so it's a story that is a. Uh, relatable to all audience types, but outside of that, for myself and my my mom and for my family, this is our family story, and one that my kids, my great grandkids, what how they knew my father in his courage, in his resiliency, in terms of just coming to a new world and having to start over again.   Michael Hingson ** 55:27 What do you want people to take away from the story   Miki Ngyuen ** 55:32 history? Number one, in terms of the history of because there's a you know, if you don't, if you don't learn from history, you're going to make the same sort of mistakes again. And so, from history, what can we learn out of it, the lessons that we can learn out of it, the lessons of just how to overcome obstacles, dealing with, as you said, with fear, courage, lessons around being curious about the things around you, learning Education and as well as the lasting years, just lessons around teamwork and working with others, working with your community. So those are the kinds of things that we want to get across in this book.   Michael Hingson ** 56:36 What kind of lessons do you think your your father's memoir and yours, because you compiled it. What lessons do you think we all should take away from that, that we should use today? What, what should we be learning from this story?   Miki Ngyuen ** 56:56 Uh, lessons in terms of, uh, leadership, lessons in terms of how to handle yourself in crisis situation, lessons around working with others to overcome a particular obstacle or a challenge working, you know, with teammates. Wait may it be in a corporate environment, or maybe in a community or a setting, or many of those themes that in terms of just everyday life lessons and resiliency, yeah, yeah, many of those themes and lessons that I think is told through my father's experience and our family's experience, from that standpoint,   Michael Hingson ** 58:08 a question that comes to mind, really off the wall, is so it's now been 50 years. What is Vietnam like today? Do you know a   Miki Ngyuen ** 58:16 lot better than it was 50 years ago? I I've visited, not only visited, but lived there in 2016 2017 and life today a lot more prosperous than than in years past. And he continues to to be prosperous. And, you know   Michael Hingson ** 58:43 better from that standpoint, is it a communist country? It's still,   Miki Ngyuen ** 58:47 it's still a communist country today, one of the things that I did learn from the book and my dad was sharing is that in this ties in with the the the the Berlin Wall in the unraveling of communism the Soviet government back then, When the leadership in Vietnam saw that they loosened up many of their their their policies around that. So it is still communism today, but prosperous in a lot of ways, economically, and, you know, trading with with other countries. So, yeah, that's, that's, you know, that's how life is today in Vietnam, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 59:49 what final words and suggestions do you want to make? We've been doing this now for almost an hour, and it's, it's been as compelling as I think you thought it would. Be, and I imagined it would be, what kind of final remarks or thoughts do you want to leave for people to think about   Miki Ngyuen ** 1:00:09 that, whatever situation, whatever obstacles that you're going through at this moment, that there's always there's always choices and options, and the the the things that we talked about, you and I, Michael here, is just staying cool, staying level headed, staying calm through through challenges, and looking, you know, looking to work with others, looking for help, searching for help, and where you can help others as well. If it wasn't for Captain Paul Jacobs, compassion and humanity, our family wouldn't be here telling the story. And so these are the things that have helped us and our family in return. Look back over your shoulder to see if somebody else behind you would need help as well and offer that. So that's yeah, that's the some of the things that I want to at least share.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:23 There's there's a lot to be said for paying it forward as well as gratitude, and I think that you've exhibited all of that very well. And Miki, I want to thank you again for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful and enthralling, and I hope that everyone has enjoyed it. And I appreciate you being able to be here and tell the story, because it has to be still a challenge, even 50 years later, because you lived through it, but but you've learned how to live through it. And I think that's the issue. It's like with the World Trade Center, you learn how to deal with with it, and we both have learned to tell our stories, and I think that's so important. So I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening today. This has been wonderful. I hope you agree. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, and also wherever you're listening or watching, please give us a five star review. We value your reviews very highly, and we we love the good ones. So please give us a five star review, and as Walden did and Miki for you and everyone listening and watching, if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on our podcast, and you think anyone else who has a story to tell, love to hear it, love to meet them, love to get them on the podcast. So we really appreciate you reaching out again. You can email me at Michael h i@accessibe.com or go to our podcast web page, which is www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael Hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, you can reach us through that page as well. Hope that you'll listen to more episodes and that you'll come back if you're listening to us for the first time, and whatever you do, be well and be grateful for all that we have. That's the way it ought to be, and we can all be unstoppable if we choose to. So again, thank you for being here and Miki, thank you again for being here and being with us. Yeah,   Miki Ngyuen ** 1:03:32 thank you again, Michael, for the opportunity to share the story with you from your audience.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:41 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Author and liver of life absolutely describes our guest this episode, Pat Backley. As Pat says, she was an English woman until the age of 59 when she decided to become a Kiwi and moved full time to New Zealand. Pat grew up in a poor household, but she will tell you that she never regrets not having as much money as many of the people around her. However it happened, Pat grew up with a various curious oriented mind and a desire to explore the world.   During her life which today spans 73 years, Pat has held a number of jobs. She also has been married twice, but clearly really is not bitter over being divorced from both husbands, although the 2nd one simply wasn't ready to be as adventurous as Pat and live in New Zealand.   Pat wrote her first book at the age of 70. Over the past three years she has written eight books and has a number of future books inside her. As with other authors I have met over the years, Pat's characters essentially write their stories. Pat has plans and ideas, but the characters take over and create the stories.   I find Pat to be extremely articulate and personable to converse with. I think you too will enjoy her and what she has to say. So, sit back, or walk or do whatever you are doing, but get ready to hear a most enjoyable and thought-provoking conversation.       About the Guest:   Pat Backley is an English woman who, at the age of 59 , decided to become a Kiwi and she now lives in Auckland, New Zealand. Passionate about people and travelling the world, she has spent the last 73 years living a colourful and interesting life and her books reflect these passions.   She published her first book DAISY in late 2020, just before her 70th birthday, and now says that she intends to write till she dies!   She has published eight books and contributed to several anthologies, as well as writing articles and short stories for various magazines and has several more books in the pipeline.   Ways to connect Pat:   www.patbackley.com I am on Facebook and Instagram @patbackleyauthor. Also on X (Twitter) @Pat Backley Books. And LinkedIn @Pat Backley   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   ichael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and I want to welcome you to another edition of unstoppable mindset. And today we are going to chat with Pat Backley. Pat is a British woman, as she will tell you, but at the age of 59 which has now been some what, 1314, years ago, 13 years ago, she decided to become a kiwi and moved to New Zealand. We'll have to find out what brought that about. I've been to New Zealand. It's a fun place. I'd love to go back. But anyway, and of late, certainly much later in her life, Pat decided to become an author. She wrote her first book at the age of 70, and that is another fascinating story, I am sure. So we will delve into all of that, and we're going to grill Pat until she's tired of us. Pat, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Pat Backley ** 02:20 Thank you so much, Michael, I can assure you, I won't be tired of being grilled by you. I'm I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:29 we're really glad that you're here. What time is it in New Zealand right now? It's 10 o'clock   02:33 in the morning. Yeah, it's about what I thought.   Michael Hingson ** 02:38 So you're 21 hours ahead of us. Yeah, yes.   Pat Backley ** 02:42 And I have to say, I have to say that tomorrow is looking very good. You'll be glad to know, Oh, good.   Michael Hingson ** 02:49 Should be good. It Well, I'm glad to hear that it's going to look good, and it's actually going to warm up a little bit. Here. We're only getting up to about 65 Fahrenheit, so that's what about 17 Celsius or so. But tomorrow it's supposed to start getting a little bit warmer. We're approaching our winter as you approach your summer, which is kind of interesting.   Pat Backley ** 03:14 Yes, very interesting. When I first moved to New Zealand, that was one of the things I found very strange to have Christmas in the sunshine, because obviously I was, I was born with Christmas in the cook.   Michael Hingson ** 03:29 Yeah. Well, and you could have moved to Australia, where they use kangaroos to pull Santa slay.   Pat Backley ** 03:38 I could have done. I could have done. But Australia didn't have the same appeal for me as No, I   Michael Hingson ** 03:43 like New Zealand. I haven't been to Australia. I'd like to go, but I really enjoyed being in New Zealand. I've been to both the North and the South Island. I spent almost three weeks there, back in 2003 and gave something like 17 or 18 speaking opportunities in 15 days. And I only had one day that I had mostly off and that we spent. What is the the town on the South Island, the the tourist town, oh, Queenstown. Queenstown. Yeah, and so but that only lasted until about six that evening, and then I had to go off and speak again. But it was a lot of fun.   Pat Backley ** 04:28 You must have been exhausted because it's quite a lot of distance. I was I'm what I'm about to say is going to sound ridiculous now, because I've just been to America, and I know about your distances I was going to say, because you have a lot of driving distance between the towns you would have had to speak at. But then, as I was about to verbalize it, I thought, Pat, that's stupid. In America, the distances are far greater   Michael Hingson ** 04:51 well, and also a number of airplane flights between the North and the South Island to make it go faster as well.   Pat Backley ** 04:57 Yes, absolutely, yes. So. It was fun. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:01 why don't we start by you telling us a little bit kind of about the early Pat growing up and all that. We'll start with that. Okay,   Pat Backley ** 05:08 well, I, I was born in 1951 so it was just after the war, and England was still suffering from the effects of the war. You know, there was a lot of it was a bit of a gray place, so my parents couldn't afford to buy their own home, so I lived with my parent, my paternal grandparents, for the first three and a half years of my life. And of course, I had a lovely time because I had four adults doting on me. Then we moved out to the country. We were given a council house, which is like a state house. I'm not sure what they called in in the in America, you know, where the government provides them, right? Which, at that time was very acceptable, because there wasn't much housing, because it had all been bombed out, because we lived in London. So, so I grew up in the country. I didn't realize we were poor until I was 11, and went to secondary school, and suddenly I was the because I was quite bright, I was put in a grammar stream class, so I was suddenly with all these rich kids. One girl was driven to school in a chauffeur driven rolls, Royce and I lived in the little government house opposite the school, so everyone knew I was poor. So yeah, it was, it was tough. I would say it was tough my teenage years, but I   Michael Hingson ** 06:26 did, they teach you a lot about that. Oh, yeah,   Pat Backley ** 06:28 I got, I got, I mean, these days they would call it bullying, bullying. I just, I just, it was just, what my luck you know that I remember one time, and I actually did write about this in my memoirs, because it's still in my head after 60 odd years, one time I was the only kid in the class that went home for school lunches, and one because mum couldn't afford to pay for school lunches, so I used to go home because we lived just opposite. And I remember one day I came back to school and it was raining, so all the kids were back in the classroom early, and the teacher wasn't there yet. And there was this one girl whose name will live in my memory forever. She's etched on my soul, Angela Barrett. And she was standing at the front of the class, pretending to be the teacher, writing on the blackboard, and then wiping it off with this black cloth. And then she said, this is all this rag is fit for. And it was actually my school raincoat, which until then I'd been very proud of, but it was second hand, it'd be my cousins. And I can remember that afternoon thinking, I don't want to be here anymore. I hate it here. Everyone hates me. And I went home and I told mom, and I cried, and she said, Look, love, just because they've got more money than you doesn't make them any better people. And at 11, I could not see that at all like that. I just thought, why don't you just get more money? Why don't you buy me a nicer and go blah, blah, blah. But now in hindsight, I just think she that was the wisest thing she could say, because the time I rebelled, it made me realize that actually it's not an equal playing field in the world. You know, you're going to have people that are on this side and down at the bottom and up at the top, and you just have to grit your teeth and fight your way through it,   Michael Hingson ** 08:13 yeah, and, and the reality is, there are only so many things that you can truly control, and what you what you can control is how you dealt with that situation and situations like that. Yes, that's   Pat Backley ** 08:25 right. Um, and then I think I was a, I was definitely a product of the 60s. You know, we had all the lovely pop music and the short skirts and burning out bras and all that sort of stuff. But when I was just two weeks after my 20th birthday, I got married for the first time, which was ridiculous in hindsight, but at the time, you think you know everything when you're that age, don't you? My parents begged me not to marry him, but of course, I knew best, so that marriage lasted 14 years, and he wasn't always very kind. So then I left, then I was on my own for a beer. Then I had a living boyfriend, and I was desperate to have a child, Michael, but I'm not. I'm I'm old fashioned. I only would have a child if I had a husband. And so I didn't. I got married again when I was 41 and we had a child. I had a child when I was 43 my daughter, and that was that I thought life was going to be great. And then 26 years later, he decided he didn't love me anymore, didn't want to live in New Zealand anymore, and that was that so. So I kind of found myself living in New Zealand on my own, having we emigrated here together just before my 59th birthday. But anyway, I've picked up the pieces. It's been six years now, and because of COVID and because of him leaving me, that's how my life changed, really. And your daughter, my and my beloved daughter, my only child, yes, she's 30 now, and she is the love of my life. Yes, and I'm sorry. I've just realized I probably. Probably haven't answered your question very well. You must always pull me back, because I tend to get very excited and passionate and you know, don't necessarily toe the line with question answering. So forgive me, not   Michael Hingson ** 10:11 a problem. That's why this is a conversation and not a big deal. So is your daughter in New Zealand? She   Pat Backley ** 10:20 is now. When her dad she she was 16 when we came to New Zealand, so she did her last bit of school here, then she went to university in Auckland, and then she decided she wanted to do her master's degree back in London. So she went back to London, and then she got a job there, and she was away for five and a half years, which nearly broke my heart, but she's home now. She's been back four years, and she's got a lovely Kiwi boyfriend, and she's here to stay, so I'm   Michael Hingson ** 10:49 thrilled. What did she get? Her degree in art history. Ah, now, do you? Did you go to college? No, sadly,   Pat Backley ** 10:57 I because we were poor, I just had to leave school at 16, and so now I never went to college. I would have loved to, I would have liked to have been a teacher, but, you know, it wasn't to be and and I've had a great life, regardless of that.   Michael Hingson ** 11:13 So did you during all your married life and then the time in between and so on. What kind of work did you   Pat Backley ** 11:20 do? Well, I started work. I started work in the bank when I was 16. Barclays Bank was a really good place to work, so I spent 10 years working there. Then I lived for two years in the Fiji Islands and just did voluntary work back to the UK. My first husband and I started a furniture business, and then when I left him. Obviously I needed a job, because I didn't claim anything in the divorce. And so I got a job with bernardo's, the children's charity, as a general fundraiser. And that was great, because I just traveled all around the south of England supporting all the fundraising groups and things which I loved. And then I moved on to after a few years, I moved on to cancer research, um, again, as a fundraiser, but this time, setting up all their charity shops in the south, and that was a wonderful thing as well, because during the course of both those jobs, I met so many interesting people. You know, now that I'm an old gray haired lady, well, not actually Gray, because I color it, but now that I'm an old gray head lady. I feel very bad that the 35 year old me went to my new job with with Barnardos and sat there looking at these hundreds of gray head old ladies. And I thought, Oh, I'm too young to deal with all these old people. What on earth am I going to talk to them about? And of course, within a couple of days, I've realized that all these gray head old people were fabulous, that most of them had had really interesting, fascinating lives, and that I could learn an awful lot from them. So now the old gray head me looks back and feels very guilty at how I was at that age. But I guess that's what happens when you're young. You just think anyone over the age of 50 is is past it, don't you really well, but   Michael Hingson ** 13:03 you did learn a lot, I bet, from them, which is, oh, wow,   Pat Backley ** 13:07 oh, I learned so much, and I had so much fun, so much fun. Yeah, in fact, when I got married for the second time, a whole bunch of those ladies and a few of the men came to my, like, hen party the night before I got married, we went to the local, very smart hotel and had cocktails, and I just smiled to myself, thinking, oh, and I thought you were all so boring at the beginning, and actually, you're fabulous. So, yeah. So then, then my then I, then I stopped working, had my daughter, and I desperately didn't want to go back to my well paid job with cancer research. I wanted to be home with my baby because I was 43 I'd lost two children in the year before, with miscarriages, and so I stayed at home for four months, and then my husband said, oh, we need more money. You need to get a job. So I ended up doing having other people's children at my house, looking after them so doing like child minding. And that was when I look back. I don't know how I managed, because sometimes I had five under four year olds running around the house, which was quite a challenge. But we survived. I did that, I think, for seven years altogether, and oh, and in between that time, we came and lived in New Zealand for a year because my husband was a teacher, and he got a year's teaching exchange. So we basically swapped lives with a New Zealand teacher. He and his family moved into our house in England, and we moved into their house here in New Zealand. So for a whole year, we lived like a proper Kiwi family, which was wonderful. Lucy was only two, so it was the ideal time to do it. And I just, I just fell in love with New Zealand and desperately wanted to emigrate there. And then it took me 14 years to persuade him to get back here eventually. And in hindsight, I've probably pushed it too much, because. After he left, he said, I didn't like living in New Zealand. I didn't ever really settle there. So I have to hold up my hand and say, probably I persuaded him to do something that he really didn't want to do. But anyway, it's easy to be wise in hindsight, isn't it, as always, yeah. And then so we went back after our year here, we went back to the UK and we set up a business training and assessing construction workers, because the government realized, the UK government realized that, because they'd stopped formal apprenticeships some 20 odd years earlier, that there were now hundreds of 1000s of men working on construction sites who had all the necessary skills, but no paper qualifications. And so they wanted to redress that, but they realized that these men would not be willing to go back to college for three years to learn, learn their trade that they could already do. So they started this fast track program, and we used to go onto sites. We obviously, I had to get lots of qualifications and things to do it, trainers and assessors, qualifications. But then we used to go on two sites and watch the men working ask them loads of questions. We obviously had trade specific instructor assessors, and they could get that qualification that they would have taken three years to get going to college, they could then get in in a matter of six months or so, just by being observed doing their job. So it was a really, really good system, and it was very rewarding for me personally, because I used to go onto the sites and do the initial talks and whatever. And I've always liked men. I've always enjoyed their company, so I could cope with all the banter, you know, all the right, darling, what you're going to do after work, that kind of thing. I enjoyed all that. The bit I hated was wearing a hard hat, because they're very unflattering and they squash your hair do. But the most rewarding thing for me, we did that, that business for 20 years. The most rewarding thing was when a guy who I'd met on site who didn't even want to do it because he felt inadequate, which I later discovered was because he couldn't read or write, but he'd hidden it from all his colleagues. The most satisfying thing was once he'd passed, which obviously he sailed through. I sent him his certificate in the post, and the next day he phoned me, and he said, Pat. Thank you so much for that certificate. He said, it's the only thing I've ever had in my whole life that says I'm good at anything. He said, My wife is framing it and putting it on the living room wall. And that just made me cry, because I thought, this is, this is a man who's 45 who's gone through his whole life thinking he's stupid, and suddenly, just that one action can give him something to be proud of. So that was, I loved doing that, and we made that's how we made our money. For a few years, it was incredibly successful, and then it tailed off, and that's when we immigrated to New Zealand, and since I've been here, I've just basically been having a lovely time, doing a bit of voluntary work, lots of socializing and becoming an author. So   Michael Hingson ** 18:10 what, what attracted you to New Zealand? Why did you fall in love so much with New Zealand? Do you think   Pat Backley ** 18:19 it's a it's a hard question to answer. Michael, it was something deep inside me after I'd been here for a year, or when I'd been here probably only for a few weeks, I got this real feeling deep inside, inside me that I needed to be here. I just think sometimes places in the world draw you in for whatever reason. Who knows? You don't know if it's because perhaps you've got some association with it through an ancestor or I don't know, but I felt very, very drawn to New Zealand, and once we went back to the UK, we were back there for 14 years. Whenever I spoke to friends from New Zealand, whenever they'd phone me, I would end up in tears for hours. I want to go back to New Zealand. So it was a need rather than a desire, almost. And it's not something I've ever regretted. Even after he even after he abandoned me, we were back in England when he announced he didn't want to be married anymore, and he never came back to New Zealand. I just had to come back alone. Even then my friends in England were saying to me, oh, Pat, just stay in England. You know, we're all here. We'll, you know, we'll all be here for you. And I said, No, no, home is just New Zealand, even though I knew I was coming back all alone because Lucy was still living in London, I had, I've got no family here, so, but there was something that pulled me back.   Michael Hingson ** 19:45 I understand that I really enjoyed New Zealand a lot. And if there's when people ask me a place in the world that I regard as my favorite place to visit, New Zealand always comes out first, but I enjoy. Way wherever I go. I actually took my first trip to London in late October of this year. I was only there for a couple of days, but it was to do a speech. And, you know, it was pretty similar to being here. It just wasn't the same feeling as as being in New Zealand, which I had the opportunity to do, as I said before, for a little over three weeks. So it was really a lot of fun and and the the environment is just so different.   Pat Backley ** 20:28 Yes, I think New Zealand, I think one of the, I mean, obviously it's an incredibly beautiful country, but I think one of the main differences is that we, we've got a land mass pretty similar to the UK, but we we've only got like 5 million people, and the UK has got more than 70 million. And I think that's the thing. You know, the more people you try to cram into a small space, the more the social problems are, are enlarged, don't they? You know, we have exactly the same social problems here that are anywhere else in the world, but because our population is relatively small, it's not such a such such a huge feature of life, I think, yeah. Mm,   Michael Hingson ** 21:10 well, I haven't explained to everyone listening that Pat and I met through the RV Book Festival, virtual book festival, which both of us being authors, we spoke at and participated in, gosh, a little over a month ago now. Mm,   Pat Backley ** 21:28 yes, time flies, doesn't it does. It does.   Michael Hingson ** 21:32 And one of the things that I said, as I usually do when I get a chance to meet with people, is we'd love to have you all come on the podcast. And Pat is the second of the three people who were there. And so I'm glad that that that we got to do this. But let's talk about you being an author. So you started being an author. What, just three years ago or four years ago? Yes, yes. What? Yeah. Go ahead. Oh,   22:01 no, sorry, you carry on. Well, so   Michael Hingson ** 22:03 what just caused you to decide that you're going to try to write a book?   Pat Backley ** 22:09 Okay? Well, when I was a little girl, I had a massive list of things I wanted to be when I was growing up, I wanted to be a nurse, a missionary, a writer, a teacher, a ballerina. They were all my that was my list. So when I was about eight, I edited my first magazine. Is I have one limited copy of it. It was a limited, very limited edition. It only lasted one, one time. But so I guess probably I've always had that desire deep inside me, but because of circumstances, and not coming from, you know, a very privileged background, it meant that I didn't have the opportunity. But in the days when we used to write letters, I always love to write long, long letters to all my friends, my family. And when I lived in Fiji for two years, I wrote, there was no other way of communicating with my parents. They had no telephone. So for two years, I wrote them letters and when my when, when they died, and I had to clear out their house, I found this enormous pile of blue Air Mail, letters that I'd written to my parents over a two year period. They'd kept every single one. So I think I'd always loved writing, but it never occurred to me that I would ever have the chance to write a book. And then we get to COVID, and we, here in New Zealand, went into lockdown on the day of my 69th birthday. It was a beautifully sunny day, and I was all alone because Lucy was in England, and I made myself chocolate brownies, stuck a candle in it, sat in the garden and cried because my marriage was over. My daughter was gone. We had COVID. There were, you know, there were lots of things to cry about. And I then spent the next three weeks lying on my sofa watching rubbish on Netflix, eating too much chocolate, drinking too much red wine. And then I thought to myself, Pat, this is ridiculous. This could go on for a few more weeks, because at the time, we thought COVID was going to be quite short lived, didn't we, and I thought, why don't you do something practical? Why don't you write a book? So I just got out some paper and pen and started writing, and stayed up, probably mostly day and night, for two weeks, and then within two weeks, my first book, Daisy was done, and that was that really the rest is history. Since then I have so I published it self. Published it just before my 70th birthday, and in the three years since then, I've written and published eight more. Contributed to five anthologies, written a little Yes, so yeah, written articles for magazines and been interviewed by lovely people like you, and the rest is history. Are you alright? Have I sent you to sleep? Talking?   Michael Hingson ** 24:58 No, I. Well, I'm just listening. I didn't know whether you were done. You know, it's, it's fascinating to to listen to the story and to hear you talk about what, what brought you to it, what made you decide what kind of books to write. I   Pat Backley ** 25:18 don't think I really did decide, um, my daughter for my birth, for the previous Christmas, had sent me a very dry little textbook, which she knew I love, called, I can't think exactly what it's called, something like the history of architecture, of council houses in the UK, something very boring like that. And it was, it was basically a textbook, because I love architecture as well. It was basically a textbook with just a few pictures in so I'd kind of put it on my coffee table, but not but ignored it. You know how you do when there's books? You know, you should, you kind of don't get around to it. So at the beginning of COVID, I picked it up one day, or a couple of days before I started writing, I picked it up, and within five minutes, I was enthralled. I got out post it notes. I'd stuck those all over little bits and written quotes, and I think that was kind of an inspiration. So I expected the book to be more about, have more of a theme of architecture. And in fact, the book doesn't. There is one guy who becomes an architect in it towards the end. But I think that kind of just just pushed something in my head into gear, because I firmly believe Michael. I mean, they always say that everyone has a book inside them, and I, when I do my talks now, I'm often photographed at a very funny stage where I'm going like this, because I'm just saying how somebody's it feels as though somebody's taken off the top of my head, and 70 years worth of words are just flying out. Because I find writing incredibly easy. The first book Daisy wrote itself pretty much, you know, I just kind of had an idea and and I wrote down a few things about possible people, and then they just wrote their own story, really, which I'm, you know, I know, as an author, you will understand that. And I would say, for all my other books, I've had an idea, but they've kind of, they've kind of written themselves, themselves   Michael Hingson ** 27:17 as well. Yeah. Well, you know, you talk about textbooks. I've been an advocate for some time about the concept that people should rewrite textbooks or make textbooks different than they are, and technical manuals, the same way, as you said, they're very boring and and they don't need to be in textbooks could draw people in a lot more than they than they do. For example, my master's degree is in physics, and when you're looking at a physics textbook, there are lots of mathematical equations and so on, and that's fine, but think of how much more interesting the book might be, and think of how much more you might draw the interest of people to the science by including in the book some stories about the the author. Their their, I don't want to necessarily say adventures, but their experience is why they became a physicist, why they do what they do, and bringing some humanity to the textbook, I think would make a significant difference to textbooks in general, but we don't see that, because people just want to get the facts out there.   Pat Backley ** 28:32 I couldn't agree more. I absolutely, totally agree. When I was at school, I hated doing research because it was boring. You had to learn the names of all the kings of England, and King, you know, Henry, the eighth wives, and when their heads got chopped off and all that stuff. And apart from the really scandalous bits, I wasn't really interested. But now I absolutely adore research. I discovered that my first book, Daisy is is a historical fiction, and so I had to do lots of research to make sure it was accurate, because you you know, if you write something in a book and it's not right, people are going to pick holes in it. I mean, they're going to pick holes in your work anyway, so you don't want to give them extra ammunition, right? But I discovered that I absolutely loved doing research. And of course, these days it's so easy because you just click a button on your computer and you can find out what cold scuttles were used in 1871 whereas in my youth, we had to trudge to the library get out all the encyclopedias. And so because of I've discovered that love of research, all my all my novels, are now historical because it's almost it gives me an excuse to go researching and finding out stuff. So it's opened up a whole new world to me, Michael and I just realized now that that expression education is wasted on the young is so true, because now in my seven. Is I am so open to learning new things, whereas in my teens, I was bored to death and just wanted to go home and play.   Michael Hingson ** 30:09 So what was Daisy about? Oh, well,   Pat Backley ** 30:11 Daisy, I'll just, I'll just read you a little bit on the back to give you an idea. Um, Daisy is a gentle family saga spanning almost 100 years, from 1887 to 1974 It is set in Alabama, Harlem and London, and incorporate some of the evils of society, poverty, racism and snobbery, as well as some of the greatest that life has to offer, family, friendship and love and a couple of quotes, being born poor was a scar that never faded, and she had never experienced racial hatred first hand, so had no real idea of how it could erode a person's whole life. So basically, it's just a story of a young woman born in the slums of London and a young man born into an affluent lifestyle on an Alabama plantation in 1871 and how their lives interwove, they never got together, but, you know, or all their extended people did, so it's right, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 31:14 right. Well, the thing about about that kind of a story is, again, it draws you in. I I would would say something slightly different. Being poor is a scar that that never fades. On the other hand, being poor also gave you, or would give Daisy the life that she had, which was, was so I would suspect so very invaluable to her overall life experiences.   Pat Backley ** 31:50 Yes, absolutely yes. And her life changes quite dramatically midway because of the people she meets. Yeah, it's I, it was in, it's interesting, because sometimes I reread it and I just think, Wow, this is quite a good story. And I then I feel bad for thinking that about my own writing, but I've written the second Daisy, which is obviously the follow up. And then I thought, actually I and then I wrote a little travel book and my life story and whatever. And then I thought, Oh, I really miss doing research. Perhaps I could write about my own family, my own ancestors. So I then wrote the ancestors series. I've done three in it, and wrote about my paternal grandparents, my maternal grandparents and my own parents. I've just published that book about them that was glorious, but very emotive, because obviously I knew certain bits about them. But delving back further and further into the family histories, you discover lots of things and very emotional to write, yeah, particularly one about my parents, because your parents are just your mom and dad, aren't they? You kind of don't think of them really, as people in their own right, but when you start writing their life story, you're living life through their shoes and and it, yeah, it made me very emotional. I cried every day writing my parents story, but now I'm really glad I did it, because it's kind of honored, honored their lives, and also it means they'll never die their even their photographs are on the cover. And my daughter said that she cried all the way reading it, and she said, Mom, it was wonderful, because I hardly knew them. You know, they died when she was quite young. Yeah, she's but now I understand, yeah, so because she's had, you know, she's had a reasonably nice upbringing. She hasn't had the upbringing that they had, or even I had. So, yeah, I think I try. I've become a bit I've become a bit of a pain now, because everyone I meet, I say, like last week, I did a talk at the local genealogy society, and I said to them, please write your story down or record it some way. Because once you die, your story dies with you, no one knows your life as well as you do. So, yeah, yeah. But I just love research. So now I'm thinking, oh, what else can I write about and do some research? I write about people. Michael, people are my passion. I love people and and ordinary people. I don't need to write about, you know, worthy things people, right?   Michael Hingson ** 34:24 But the other part about it is that you got, as you write about your parents, I'll bet you got to know them better, too, and it helps you understand the kind of life you had and they had. And I still bet overall, you could talk about wealth and all that, but you wouldn't trade your life for anything because it made you who you are today. Abs,   Pat Backley ** 34:49 you're absolutely right, and yes, you're right. Writing about their stories and all that they went through, it was Yeah. Just made me really, really realize that they were even. Special people than I knew they were. But no, I wouldn't trade anything. I mean, I had a wonderfully happy childhood, if you put aside that silly bit of bully in that, you know, I tend to know for the years. But, yeah, we I, I because I didn't know, really, that I got snippets of there being other kind of lives like, you know, I had rich friends who had lots of clothes, traveling all the time and stuff, but basically, my life was just my little nuclear family. In our little we had a little two bedroom house for six of us, and that was my life. We were very happy. There were very rarely raised voices, and that's why I didn't cope very well in my first marriage, when my husband, my first husband, suddenly showed me that he had a rather violent temper because I didn't know how to handle it, because I had never experienced that before in my whole life. So I in that way, I wasn't prepared. But yeah, I will always be grateful to my parents, because with very little, they gave us all a very happy childhood.   Michael Hingson ** 36:05 Well, so you started writing at the age of 70. Do you wish that you had started writing earlier? Or did you think about that? I   Pat Backley ** 36:17 think about it. I don't really, because I think I had to live through everything I've lived through get to the point now of being able to write in the way I do. And also, yeah, no, I don't really. I mean, the only thing I think is, oh, I hope I don't die before I before I get everything written, I want to write. That's my only thing. But no, I I've learned, Michael, not to regret anything in life, because if you do, the only person it hurts is yourself. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 36:47 because you are who you are, because of your life   Pat Backley ** 36:51 exactly, and you would understand that better than most. I mean, you cope so well with with being blind, which is absolutely remarkable, because most of us, if we suddenly can't see and need to wear a stronger pair of glasses, we just go down, you know, go down into a depressive state. So you're a wonderful beacon of hope. I think for an awful lot of people, of course,   Michael Hingson ** 37:15 the issue, and using that as an example, the issue is that you don't know anything about being blind or blindness, and people generally don't, and they make a lot of assumptions that are not necessarily true, but it is again, the lives that they live, and the reality is there's nothing wrong with being blind. We live in a world where most people are light dependent, that is, they can see. But the reality is, of course, in the perspective I try to oftentimes nowadays, to convey to people, is light dependence is just as much a disability as being light independent or blind, because as soon as the lights go out, you lose power, and if you don't have an immediate light source. You're in a world of hurt. And we really should think of disability as a characteristic that everyone has, except it manifests itself differently for different people. But unfortunately, people aren't ready to do that. And the reasons for bringing up the concept in that way is that I think that because disability is really a characteristic everyone has, it is also a way to help level the playing field. And that's something that is so hard to get people to do, because they really think, well, you're blind, you're not as good as I   Pat Backley ** 38:37 Oh, wow. Very profound. I love talking to you. Michael, this is fascinating stuff. Fascinating. I had, I had a little niece. Sadly, she died when she was 14. She had a dreadful genetic disease called battens, but she went blind for the last couple of years. It broke my heart. It broke my heart, but she seemed to just deal with it somehow. You know, it's, I guess we all get the strengths we need at the times we need them. Do you think   Michael Hingson ** 39:04 I think, I think that's true, or we can if, long as we accept it. But the reality is that, of course, she lost her her eyesight, but if she developed an attitude that I have other things that are available to me, so I'm going to be fine, then she would be fine. Yes,   Pat Backley ** 39:23 yeah, yeah. I mean, sadly, she lost all her faculties. She couldn't talk. She so everything went but, but it was when her eyes went and she was still able to understand, that was the hardest thing. So I remember years ago when I worked in Barclays Bank, when I was quite in my 20s, and we were, I worked in a big branch at the time, and we had a blind telephonist, because in those days, back in the 60s, I think it was kind of what they did. It was when there were all those great big telephonic boards, you know, press all the buttons. And we had a guy called Peter, and he had. His dog was called penny, and our branch was on the corner of this huge, wide road in a place called Kingston, just outside London. And to cross the road, there were like six lanes of traffic, and it was really, really dangerous. And we would come out of work in the afternoon, and we'd all be standing there hesitant to cross the road, and Peter would suddenly just march across the road with Penny, and we'd all be standing there in awe. And one day I crossed with I've got brave, and I crossed over with him, and we got to the other side, and I said, Peter, how can you do that? He said, Oh, well. He said, It's always useful being blind, because traffic feels sorry for you, so they all kind of slow down anyway. He said, But, but. He said, But Penny leads me. He said, she just, she just, she just knows it's fine, so she just the dog just, just takes me over. I was fascinated, but he had just recently married about two years earlier he'd been, he'd been fully sighted till he was 11, and then he and some friends were messing about on the railway lines, and he fell over and bashed his head, and he went blind. So he had been sighted and but now he he was married, he had a little baby, and I said, Oh, Peter, can you actually see your baby, or do you just kind of have to feel the outline? He said, Oh no. He said, I got a tiny, tiny bit of vision. He said, so I can see the shape of the baby. And I just always remember thinking you're so brave. That was, that was what I thought. I just felt he was so brave. Well, just remember   Michael Hingson ** 41:27 the dictionary, you know? Well, just remember the dictionary defines to see is to perceive. It doesn't necessarily need to be with the eyes and and there's so many other senses that give us this a lot of information as well. For me, I don't want my dog to decide when we cross the street in general, unless the dog refuses to go because there's a hybrid car or something coming that I don't hear. But it's my job to know when to go and and I know how to do that, and so I can listen for the traffic flow and and, and go accordingly. And at the same time, if I then tell the dog to go forward and the dog won't go my immediate assumption is there's a reason for that, and and, and usually there is because the dog and I have developed that kind of a relationship where the dog knows it's my job to tell the dog where to go, and it's the dog's job to make sure that we get there safely. It's a very close knit team. It's as close knit of a team as you can imagine, and it's what it's really all about. So the dog and I each do our jobs, and when we do them correctly together, what a wonderful world. It becomes   Pat Backley ** 42:47 fabulous. And it obviously works because you're still standing, you're still here,   Michael Hingson ** 42:54 and my and my dog is over here, breathing very deeply, asleep. Oh, so you you stick with historical fiction. Have you ever thought of writing other kinds of books, like adventures or novels or that are not historic in nature, fantasy or any of those? I   Pat Backley ** 43:17 don't think I've got the right brain set to do fantasy or horror or crime. I, I I'm writing historical because I've discovered a great love for it, but I've also, I also have a great love for travel. So I wrote a little travel book, and I've just done a big trip, so I'm going to write another travel book, because that's another great love I wrote. I wrote my memoirs, which was very satisfying, you know, to write my own story down so it's there forever, if you like. And I also wrote a little book called The abandoned wives handbook, which I didn't want to write. I just kept putting it off. And then one day, I woke up at three in the morning and this voice saying to me, Pat, you have to write this book to help other people. So I just wrote this. I cried all the time. Writing it, as you've probably deduced, I'm a great crier. I think crying is is the best way of getting stress out of your system, out of my system. So I wrote this book. It's just a tiny little book that you can pop into a handbag called the abandoned wives handbook. And I've just made it like a little dictionary. I call it a dictionary of distress, and it's just to I'll just just briefly read you the backseat and understand the pain of abandonment is huge. The partner you loved and cherished for so many years has decided you are no longer required past your sell by date of no use to them anymore, so tossed out like a piece of garbage, abandoned with barely a backward glance, in an attempt to keep this a gentle, light hearted read, each chapter is divided into letters of the alphabet, rather like a dictionary of distress, something you can dip into at any time. I am not an expert, merely someone who has survived one of life's great traumas and has come through. Is a stronger, more resilient person, so I didn't want to write it. I hated doing it. I've, I published it, and it's, ironically, one of my best selling books people buy   Michael Hingson ** 45:13 all the time. Do you publish your own books, or do you have a publisher? I   Pat Backley ** 45:17 have, I have done till this point, Michael, but simply because I'm feeling I'm too old to hang around waiting to get noticed. But I have just written, I have just finished another book, which I I just feel might be slightly more commercial, so I may try seeing if I can get an agent for that. But I will probably only try one or two, and then if they say no, I'll just give up and self publish. The only thing against self publishing for me now is that it because I want to do it properly. You know, I pay an editor, I pay a cover designer, I pay a formatter. It becomes quite expensive to pay people. So that's my that's my only downside. But I do like to be totally in control. You know, I can choose my own covers. I can choose when it's published. I can choose what the content is. And if you go with a traditional publisher, you often lose the ability to have the same control   Michael Hingson ** 46:11 well, or you you negotiate, but, but, yeah, I understand what you're saying. I also have to say I understand fully this whole concept of abandonment. When my seventh guide dog Africa retired, and she retired because she wasn't seeing well and she was slowing down, so I knew it was time to get a new guide dog. So it was February 9 of 2018, and we lived here, and her puppy raiser, the people who raised her, they call them, I think, in New Zealand, puppy walkers, but they live about 140 miles south, or about 120 miles in a town called Carlsbad. And they came and I, and I said that they could have Africa, and the only reason I gave her up was because we already had my wife's service dog and a cat, and I was going to get another dog, and Karen wasn't really going to be able to handle taking care of two dogs and a cat when I traveled to speak, so we agreed that Africa could go live with the bill And Peggy, and they came and picked her up, and she walked out the door without a backward glance. I was abandoned.   47:26 Oh, that's awful,   Michael Hingson ** 47:28 yeah. Well, we actually, we went. We went down and visited her several times. She was just excited. No, she's, she was a great dog. And, yes, yeah, you know. And they got to have her for two years before she passed. But she was, she was a good dog and and she had a good life. And I can't complain a bit, but it's fun to tease about how obviously we have abandoning issues here. Yes, yeah.   Pat Backley ** 47:53 And I think that's the secret in life, Michael, to always find something to be happy about and smile about, because life can be very tough, can't it? I mean, you know, it's, yeah, life is tough. And so I think if we don't find, try and seek a little joy, we might as well all give up, you know, yeah, yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 48:14 there's no need to do that. I mean, God put us on this earth to live an adventure. And life is an adventure,   48:21 absolutely,   Michael Hingson ** 48:22 no matter what we do. Yes,   48:25 absolutely. Well, how do you   Michael Hingson ** 48:26 develop your characters? I mean, you're writing historical fiction, so you're you're using history and and periods of time as the the setting for your books, but you're creating your own characters primarily, I gather,   Pat Backley ** 48:39 yes, yes. To be honest, in my head, when I start writing, I almost have an exact picture of my characters. I know exactly what they look like. I mean, if I was to, if I was to suddenly get a film offer, I could easily say how these people should look, because I they're real for for example, a few months after I oh no, maybe a year or so after I published Daisy, I was talking to my daughter one day, and I just said, Oh, do you remember when Theo did whatever? And she looked me straight in the eye, and she said, Mum, I don't know your characters as well as you do. And I just, we both burst out laughing, because to me, they're real people. You know, I I can picture them. I know exactly what they look like. And I think even when I start a new book in my head, I already know what my characters look like. They may not as the plot goes on, behave in the way I want them to, but I know how I know who they are. I know how they how they look. Yeah, they're going   Michael Hingson ** 49:43 to write the book and they're going to tell you what you need to do. Yeah, totally. But you use, but you use, I assume, real places in your books. I always   Pat Backley ** 49:51 use real places, always Yeah, and always places I know, because I think you can write more authentically then, like in days. I wrote about Harlem and Alabama and New York and London, or not New York in that one, but London and because I know all those places, I've been there and you know, they're, they're familiar to me, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 50:13 yeah. So you, you, you let them do what they do, and out comes the book.   Pat Backley ** 50:21 Absolutely, that's right, yes, yeah, have you   Michael Hingson ** 50:25 written any yet in New Zealand?   Pat Backley ** 50:29 You mean, based in New Zealand? The funny thing is, Michael, being an immigrant is and I have spoken to lots of other immigrants about this. In fact, I co authored a book in lockdown called the warrior women project, a sisterhood of immigrant women, which is based in the States. And all the other women are are living in the States, except me, and I caught up with them when I came over to the states. Couple of months ago, we had a reunion, met for the first time, which was wonderful, but we all said, once you are an immigrant, you never truly belong anywhere. You know, when I go, I always feel a little bit of an outsider here. I've been here 14 years now, and that's nobody's that's nothing anybody does. That's just my feeling deep inside. I go back to England, and I feel like an outsider. I used to live in Fiji when I was in my 20s, and then I had a house there. Until my divorce, I go back there, and I've got a lot of extended friend family there, I go back there, and I always feel like an a bit of an outsider. So I think that's the price you pay for wanting a life less ordinary. You know, you somehow become like a little bit of a floating person. And I don't to answer your question, I don't really feel qualified to write about New Zealand. Obviously, I talk about it in my travel book and I talk about different places, but to base the whole story here, I don't feel qualified. There are enough fabulous New Zealand authors who are doing that already, who've been born here, who understand the country, who, you know, who, yeah, they're   Michael Hingson ** 52:07 just at the same time you wrote Daisy, which took place in part in Alabama. How much time did you spend, you know? So it may be, it may be something in the future where a character will pop out and say, I want to be in New Zealand, but that's something to look at.   Pat Backley ** 52:23 Yes, I love it when somebody like you calls me out on my own, my own things, because you're absolutely right. I That's That was a silly argument to say. I don't know it enough. So thank you for that. You've made me rethink. That's good.   Michael Hingson ** 52:37 Well, so I gather that when you're writing, you think you have the plot planned out, or you you try to have the plot planned out, but it doesn't necessarily go the way you plan it. Does it?   Pat Backley ** 52:49 No, not at all. I mean, I know roughly what I want to say. I think what I'm definitely, definitely know what I want to do is get certain little messages across. And that doesn't matter what my characters do, because I can weave that in, like in Daisy. I wanted to get across that slavery was dreadful, and racism is dreadful, and the way black people were treated when they went to England in the 1950s was dreadful. So I managed to we, and that's and that's snobbishness and stuff is dreadful. So I managed to always weave those kind of themes into my books. And apparently, it has been said by reviewers that I do it so well that people it just makes people think about what that how they think how Yeah, so, so those main themes, if you like, I managed to weave into my stories, regardless of how badly my characters behave.   Michael Hingson ** 53:45 So when you're writing, are you pretty disciplined? Do you have certain times that you write, or do you just sit down and write till you're ready to stop for the day? Or what I   Pat Backley ** 53:56 am very non disciplined, undisciplined, whatever the term is supposed to be. I have great intentions. I think, right, I'm going to spend tomorrow writing. I'll be at my desk by eight o'clock, and I'll sit little five. And then at nine o'clock, I get up to go make a cup of coffee. And at 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock, I'm out weeding the garden, and then I might come back in and do a little bit, and then I go off and do something else. So I am dreadfully undisciplined, but I work really well to deadlines. Just before I went away on my big trip in September, I was part way through a book, probably a third way through writing a new book, and I woke up one day and I thought, right, I'm going to get that book finished before I go. I had three weeks left. In that three weeks, I had masses of appointments. I had to sort out my wardrobe, which, as a woman, is a huge problem, one that you've probably never had, but you know, you have to decide what goes with what and how many dresses you should take, and it's a huge issue for a lot of women. So I had a lot of jobs to do in that three. Weeks instead of which, I decided to set myself as self imposed time to get the book finished. Crazy. Just, I mean, why? Why? Why crazy?   Michael Hingson ** 55:09 And did you the day   Pat Backley ** 55:11 before? There you are. I was so proud of myself because I just that was it. I decided I and what I did to make myself accountable, I actually put a post on Facebook and Instagram saying, why, and all these little yellow post it notes, and I'd written on their pack suitcase, Do this, do this, do this. And so I just said to everyone that I'd given myself this self pointed deadline so I had made myself publicly accountable. If I hadn't done that, I probably wouldn't have finished it, but I find, for me, that's the best way of disciplining myself is to have a deadline with everything in life, really, yeah. But the   Michael Hingson ** 55:49 other part about it is, even when you're as you would put it, being undisciplined, your brain is still working on the book, and the characters are are mulling things over, so it does pop out. Oh, totally,   Pat Backley ** 56:00 totally. And I end up with lots of little scrappy notes all over the house, you know, where I've just grabbed a piece of paper and written down something. And then, of course, I have to gather them all together. And when I was in the States recently, I spent two months, and I've got scrap I was doing a lot of research, and I've got scrappy notes everywhere. So I've now got to try and pull those all together while my brain still remembers what they were meant to be, you know, like lady in red dress in New Orleans. Well, what does that really mean? So, right? I'm, I'm my own worst enemy in many ways, but,   Michael Hingson ** 56:37 but she thought, and so you went through it exactly, exactly, yeah, that's okay. Where did you travel in September?   Pat Backley ** 56:45 I went to Atlanta first to meet up with these warrior women, which was truly fabulous. Then I went to New Orleans, and my friend who lives in Alabama, picked me up, and we went to New Orleans, and then we drove back to Alabama. She lives in Huntsville. So I was there for a week and was doing lots of research, because Daisy is partly based right and then we then she drove me back to Nashville, and I flew to New York, where I was meeting some friends from New Zealand who lived there six months of the year. So I spent six days there and went to Harlem for more research and stuff like that, and then flew to Canada, to Toronto, where two friends, a lady I'd met when we had our daughters together, and her daughter, they now live in France. They flew from France, met me in Toronto, we hired the biggest SUV I've ever seen in my life, and we drove across Canada for three weeks, which was such fun, such fun. And then I came home. So I've got millions of scrappy notes that I need to pull together to write a travel book and to use as inspiration for my novels.   Michael Hingson ** 58:01 So you so you're going to write another travel book? I   58:05 am going to write another travel book. Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 58:09 And the the abandoned wives handbook, that's kind of a self help book. That's a self help book, yes, yeah. Just you think you'll write another one of   Pat Backley ** 58:17 those? No, no, I'm done with that one's enough of those, huh? Yeah, that's right. I'm not an expert, Michael and the I just, I just, but the funny thing is, when I do talks, I always talk about all my books. And a few weeks ago, I was talking at this very smart meeting of ex business people, both ladies and gentlemen, and they were all over 60. Um, so quite a conservative audience. And at the end, or towards the end, I just mentioned this abandoned Wise Book, I tend to skim over it. I don't really, I don't really talk about it too much unless the audience is particularly relevant. But I just said to them, oh, and this is my little book. And someone said, Oh, could you read us an excerpt from it? So I said, Okay, I'll just open the book at random. And I opened the book and the title, what you won't be able to see here, the title of that chapter was K for kill. And I thought, no, no, I don't want to read about kill front of this audience. So I just made a joke of it and and I'll just read it to you, because it will make you laugh, as I have said previously under Section indecisive. You may, in your darkest moments, think about hurting him. This is not really a great idea, as you would undoubtedly be caught and end up in prison. Yeah, you so, you know, I and then I went on a bit more, but, you know, it's some yeah and no, I'm done with that book. I've, I've done my bit for humanity with that. It seems to be helping a lot of people. So that's that's enough.   Michael Hingson ** 59:45 Yeah, I would never make a good criminal, because I know I'd be caught and and I don't know how to keep from getting caught, and frankly, don't care about trying to get worry about getting caught or not getting caught. It's easier just not to be a criminal. So it works out fine. So. Yes,   1:00:00 exactly. Yeah, me too. Me too. So much   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:02 easier. So much easier. Absolutely, absolutely yes. Well, if people want to reach out to you and maybe learn a little bit more about you or meet you, how do they do that? Okay,   Pat Backley ** 1:00:12 well, my website is just patch back league com, so it's very easy. Um, I'm Can you spell that please? Yes, yes, of course, P, A, T, B, A, C, K, L, E, y.com.com, yeah, and I'm on all the channels, as you know, Facebook and Instagram and x and LinkedIn and stuff as Pat Backley author or pat Backley books. And my books are all available from Amazon, all the online retailers, Barnes and Noble stuff like that, as ebooks or paperbacks, or if someone desperately wanted a signed copy, I'm very happy to send them a signed copy, and you can get them from you can request them from libraries.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:59 Have you? Have you thought about making any of them an audio format?   Pat Backley ** 1:01:05 I have someone's. A few people have suggested that this year, when I've been doing talks, they've come up to me afterwards, and yes, I think I'm going to, as long as it's not too costly, because at the moment, my budget is extremely limited, but I'm going to do them myself, because everyone feels that my books will be come come across better in my own voice so well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:25 and you read well. So I think that makes a lot of sense to consider.   Pat Backley ** 1:01:29 Thank you, Michael, that's very kind of you. Well, Pat,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:33 this has been fun, and I've enjoyed it. I've learned a lot of things as well, and I'm and I'm glad that we've had this chance. We need to do it again. When are you going to start a podcast?   Pat Backley ** 1:01:47 Well, funny, you should say that I've decided I'm going to I'm going to just dip my toes in very gently. I'm going to start it in the new year, and I'm going to call it and this makes everyone who knows me laugh. I'm going to call it just 10 minutes with Pat Backley. And everyone has said, Oh, don't be ridiculous. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:05 I agree, 10   Pat Backley ** 1:02:06 minutes, but I thought it's a way of just gently edging in. And then if people enjoy listening to me, they might want to listen for longer after a while. But I thought initially, just 10 minutes, little snippets, if they like what they hear, they might come back.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:21 They'll come back. Oh, I don't think there would be a problem. Well, if you, if you ever need a guest to come and spend at least 10 minutes, just let me know. I   Pat Backley ** 1:02:30 certainly shall. I have absolutely loved talking to you. Michael, thank you so much for inviting me as well. This is a very joyful morning. I've really loved it. Thank you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:39 this has been fun, and I want to thank all of you for listening. I hope you've enjoyed it and reach out to Pat. I'm sure she would love to communicate with you, and maybe in some way, you'll end up in a book, which is always a nice, good thing to think about as well. I'd love to hear what you think about our podcast today. So please feel free to email me. Michael, h, i, m, I, C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, which is at w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S O n.com/podcast, wherever You're listening. We would really appreciate it if you would give us a five star rating. And we we value that. We value your thoughts and input. Pat for you and all of you listening. If you know an

On this episode I have the pleasure to talk with Kathi Sohn who I met just two weeks ago at the latest Podapalooza event. Kathi, as it turns out, is quite knowledgeable and fascinating on many levels. Kathi grew up in Rhode Island. She describes herself as a shy child who had been adopted. While in her mother's womb, her mother tried to conduct a self-abortion when Kathi was six months along. I tell you about this because that fact and others are quite relevant to Kathi's story. Kathi will tell us that at some level we have memories that go back to even before we are born. Science supports this and it is one of the concepts that Kathi's late husband utilized in creating what he calls the “body memory process”.   Kathi graduated from high school and went to college. As you will learn, over time Kathi secured several college degrees and even became a certified nurse. At some point she joined the army. That story is best told by her. Suffice it to say that Kathi says that joining the army on the advice of her adopted father was one of the best moves she could have made. From her four years in the military she learned commitment, responsibility and discipline.   After the army, Kathi went to work for the Department of Defense and at some point she met and married her husband David. Again, a story better told by Kathi.   For many years Kathi and David lived in Maryland. Eventually they moved to Alabama.   Kathi will tell us about the work David conducted to develop the “body memory process” which he used to help many overcome fears and life challenges. After David's death in 2019 Kathi decided to retire from the Department of Defense after 36 years and then to continue the work David had begun regarding the body memory process which is the discovery and release of self-limiting beliefs (vows) we all create in early childhood. Today she is a coach and she is an accomplished author. Her book about the body memory process is entitled, “You Made It Up, Now Stop Believing It, which was released in 2023. It has reached twice bestseller status on Amazon Kindle.   Our conversation ranges far and wide about medicine, our limiting beliefs and how to deal with our limitations using the body memory process. I think you will like what Kathi has to say. She has some good nuggets of wisdom we all can use.       About the Guest:   In 2020, Kathi Sohn retired from her first career as a senior manager after 36 years with the Department of Defense. When Kathi lost her beloved husband David in 2019, she decided  to devote her life to sharing the powerful work he created – the Body Memory Process, which is the discovery and release of self-limiting beliefs (vows) we all create in early childhood.   Kathi wrote a book on the work, You Made It Up, Now Stop Believing It, which was released in 2023 and it has twice reached bestseller status on Amazon Kindle. This information-packed book not only gives the reader the entire childhood vow discovery and release processes, but also has practical exercises for increasing self-awareness and fascinating stories of real people who experienced personal transformation by using the Body Memory Process.   Kathi is also a speaker and coach, sharing as broadly as possible the importance of healing childhood wounds. She is dedicated to mitigating the cycle of inter-generational trauma.   Ways to connect Kathi:   WEBSITE: https://kathisohn.com FREE GIFT: https://bodymemoryprocess.com/free-gift/ FREE PARENT GUIDE: https://coaching.kathisohn.com/freeparentguide "RESILIENT TEEN": https://coaching.kathisohn.com/resilientteen PURCHASE BOOK WITH FREE GIFTS: https://youmadeitupbook.com/bonuses FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/bodymemoryprocess/ INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/kathi.sohn/ TWITTER: https://twitter.com/kat_sohn LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathisohn/ YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC9R0noiiPPWf1QjzrEdafw           https://linktr.ee/MCAnime   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone. I am your host, Mike Hingson, and welcome once again to another episode of unstoppable mindset today. Once again, as we've done a few times already in the last few weeks, we have the opportunity and joy to interview, well, not interview, but talk with someone who I met at our recent patapalooza Number 12 event, and today we get to talk to Kathi Sohn Kathi was at podapalooza. Pat Kathi has a lot of things going for her, and she'll tell us all about all of that. She had a long career with the Department of Defense, and if we ask any questions about that, then probably we'll all have to disappear. So we won't, we won't go into too much detail, or we'll have to eliminate you somehow. But in 2020 she left the career that she had with DOD and started working to promote something that her late husband, who died in 2019 worked on the body am I saying it right? Kathy, body memory process, yes, and and she will tell us about that, so we'll get to all that. But for now, Kathi, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Kathi Sohn ** 02:37 Michael, it is great to be here. You are such a big inspiration to me. So thank you so much for having me on your show.   Michael Hingson ** 02:44 Well, thank you. I really am very glad that we get to do this. Do you have a podcast? No, I don't. Well see, did PodaPalooza convince you to start one?   Kathi Sohn ** 02:55 No, but there's always. I'm open to possibilities in the future. So   Michael Hingson ** 03:01 as as I tell people, potable is a pretty neat event. You go because you're a podcaster. You want to be a podcaster, or you want to be interviewed by podcasters, which covers basically a good part of the world. And so you're in the I want to talk to podcasters. And there we are, and we got to meet Kathi and chat with Kathi, and here we are. So it's a lot of fun. And so why don't we start, if you would, by you telling us a little bit about maybe the early Kathi growing up and all that sort of stuff, that's always fun to start at the beginning, as it were, yes,   Kathi Sohn ** 03:37 my goodness, so I, I grew up not in A a neighborhood where, you know, kids just played together and ride their bikes. I was, I was in a rather along a kind of a rural road in in Rhode Island, going down to the beach. If anyone has heard of watch Hill and westerly that area. So it was a beautiful, beautiful area. But because I didn't have a lot of, you know, again, I didn't have the neighborhood kids to play with, and I tended to be a little shy and to myself, I spent a lot of time after I was old enough and my mom let me just sort of exploring the woods nearby and learning, you know, just really kind of going within myself and thinking, and I would look at things in nature, and I would write this very deep poetry about it. So I think I was very fortunate, on the one hand on to have a very introspective life growing up. On the other hand, it didn't help me to work out, you know, some of that, that shyness, so that's something I needed to tackle a little bit later. As an adult, I had two older brothers, all three of us were adopted from very, very difficult beginnings. And again, it wasn't until I was an adult. And in fact, doing using the work that I'm going to talk about today, that I was able to understand some of the things that I was feeling and didn't understand growing up about myself, because some things were were shrouded in mystery, and I was able to get to the bottom of it, but basically, I had a very happy childhood. My adoptive parents were just so loving and wonderful and very, very fortunate to had a great education and parents who told me that I could do anything that I put my mind to.   Michael Hingson ** 05:38 It's great when parents do that, isn't it? Oh, yeah, I was very fortunate to have parents that took that position with me. When the doctor said, Send him up to a home, because no blind child could ever grow up to be anything, and all he'll do is be a drain on the family. And my parents said, No, I was very fortunate. So it's yeah, I I definitely sympathize and resonate with that, because it's so wonderful when parents are willing to really allow children to grow and explore. And obviously parents keep an eye on us, but still, when they allow us to do that, it's great. Yeah,   Kathi Sohn ** 06:13 I had heard you. I've heard you talk, because I have your your your book, live like a guide dog. And hearing about that story, and it reminds me, if anyone of your listeners are familiar with the Barry cowfield and his wife, who had an extremely autistic son, and the doctors were telling them, You need to institutionalize them that you can't you're not going to be able to deal with that. And they said, Are you kidding me? He's our son. If the best that we can do is just love him, then we're going to have him home. You know, he's our son. We're not going to put him anywhere. And then, of course, they they work with him, actually brought him out of autism through an amazing, amazing process. But yes, you're absolutely right. The parents are just, I know it seems almost cliche, but really, parents are instrumental, not just taking care of the physical needs, but those emotional needs, so, so critical and related to what we're going to talk about today.   Michael Hingson ** 07:20 Yeah, well, and it's, it's unfortunate when parents don't do that and they give into their fears and they don't let children explore, they don't let children grow. That's, that's so unfortunate when that happened. But I'm really glad that my parents and I'm glad your parents allowed you to to stretch and grow as well. That's a neat thing. So you and of course, being a reader of a variety of Stephen King books, when you talk about Rhode Island, although the Stephen King things were a little bit further north, but and the woods sort of makes me think of, oh my gosh, did you ever run into Pet Cemetery? But we won't worry about that.   08:03 Fortunately not,   Michael Hingson ** 08:06 yeah, yeah, that was a that was a scary book. Yeah, he's a pretty creative guy. But anyways, enjoy him. But anyway, so you went through school, you went to high school and and were a little bit shy. I kind of, again, I kind of empathize. I was in a neighborhood. It was not as rural, probably, as as what you grew up in. And kids did play, but I didn't really get a chance to do much playing with the kids, because I didn't do baseball and sports and all that. So I did a lot more reading. I hung around where the kids were, somewhat the other kids were, but my brother was the one that that really interacted with them. And I, I have to admit, that I didn't do as much of that, and was was probably a little bit shy or at least hesitant as a result, but I did make some friends. And in fact, when I was seven, there was a girl named Cindy who moved into our neighborhood, who had a bike, and she asked if I ever rode my bike, and I said I didn't have one. And she let me learn how to ride a bike on hers. And my parents saw that, and so then they got me a bike, and my brother had a bike, so we did a lot of bike riding after that, it was kind of fun.   Kathi Sohn ** 09:21 Yes, I love the part of the book where your dad took a call from the neighbor who was so nonplussed about the fact that, well, did he, did he fall off right? Did he? Did he run into anything? No, what's the problem? I got a good laugh out of that. Yeah, well, and   Michael Hingson ** 09:39 I know many blind people who, who, when they were kids, rode bikes. You know, it's not that magical. You have to learn how to do it. But so do side are kids. So it's, it's the same sort of thing. So what did you do after high school? Did you go to college?   Kathi Sohn ** 09:56 Yes, it's kind of a long. Story. Let's see if I can, if I can, sort of summarize, I had, I went into college in actually, was, in my mind, pre med, my I it was the major was zoology. Where did you go? University of Rhode Island. Okay, and I, I had been well when I was 12, I started piano lessons, and then I had private singing lessons when I was 14. So here I found myself on a college campus where there was a Fine Arts Center, and I had continued to, of course, develop in music. And a part of me kind of wanted to pursue becoming a sort of a music star, while the other part of me, of course, was more practical and guided by my parents about, okay, get yourself some, you know, a more dependable career. And so here I am on this college campus and spending more time in the fine arts center than than the library. So my college years were a little turbulent, as I was still trying to figure out really what I wanted to be. I went from pre med into nursing because, again, my grades weren't that great. And because of the distraction, and I even that, even that wasn't working, the problem essentially came with me. And instead of a fine arts building, it became, you know, playing, playing the piano in local bars was just kind of trying to find my way. And my dad told me one evening I was visiting, I was home with my parents, and I was very distraught. I don't know what I'm going to do. My grades aren't that great. And he said, I think I have an idea. I'll talk to you in the morning. Well, he worked for General Dynamics Electric Boat division. So he was involved working with the Navy building nuclear submarines. Did   Michael Hingson ** 12:10 he go to rotten Connecticut? Yes, yeah. And   Kathi Sohn ** 12:15 I actually ended up working there myself briefly. And he said, you know, the military may just be what you need. So, long story short, I ended up in the army and for, you know, for four years, and really did turn everything around. Then I started getting building that self confidence. I finished a undergraduate degree in political science. And then when I started working for the Defense Department, and there was I took advantage of the benefits of them helping me with paying for graduate degrees. I i got a graduate degree in conflict resolution and one from the Naval War College where I graduated top of my class in national security studies. Wow. So turned it all around. And yeah, so in the in, you'll love this too. A little loose end that I tied up. My dad encouraged me to do this the New York regions. It was called regents college, I think, yeah, University of the state of New York had a Regents college where you could challenge a nursing degree program. So with all the courses I had taken, and I just I went to a local hospital, I they helped me to practice stealth, adjusting changes and, you know, and all of that, giving IVs, and I passed the test. It was a weekend of clinical, one on one with a nurse evaluator failure. I could not, you know, had to be 100% and I passed. So I also have an Associates in nursing. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 13:57 I wanted to, you know, is this the time to say I wanted to be a doctor, but I didn't have any patients anyway. Go ahead, yes,   Kathi Sohn ** 14:06 gosh, I'm still interested in medicine, but I figure it all, it all comes in handy if I'm, you know, I have my kids at the doctor, and I can, I can talk with them at a level, you know, a little bit of a notch above just being a worried mom. What   Michael Hingson ** 14:20 do you think of a lot of the tendencies and the trends, and I've talked to a number of people on on a stop level mindset about it, a lot of the things that go on in Eastern medicine that Western medicine doesn't practice.   Kathi Sohn ** 14:34 Well, yeah. In fact, with the body memory process, my late husband factored that into what he developed as the body map, which I can can can discuss when the time comes, very, very important stuff that's just really being missed, although there are more and more doctors who are understanding the value. Yeah. That the body is an energy system and energy and information system, and they're starting to integrate that more.   Michael Hingson ** 15:08 And at least, my opinion, is they should. There is a lot more to it. It isn't all about drugs and surgery or shouldn't be. And so it is nice to see a lot of movement toward more, what, what many might call spiritual but there's, there's so much scientific evidence and anecdotal evidence that validates it, that it's, it's good, that more people are really starting to look at it. Yeah,   Kathi Sohn ** 15:37 absolutely. And this, if this might be an appropriate place to talk a little bit about some of the scientific underpinnings of the work that I'd like to discuss. There is science behind it, and you know that when there's research that's done in, say, the pharmaceutical area, it ends up the public will find out about it through, say, new new medications. With technology, you know, you went there's some breakthrough. You end up with something new for your phone. But some of the breakthroughs that were made in the 80s about the awareness of babies and children, especially babies in the womb, and also the mind body connection. You can you can see it referenced in some, you know, scientific papers, but it doesn't really often make it to to the public, and it is very relevant to the to the public. And that's what my late husband did, was he took this research and he turned it into a practical application to people's everyday lives. One of the most really stunning discoveries back in the 70s and 70s and 80s was made by someone named Dr Candice PERT. She wrote Molecules of Emotion, and they were trying to figure out why drugs work in the body. They figured it was sort of a lock and key that if, if you know so APO opiates worked in the body. They they figured that there was an opiate receptor somewhere. And during the course of this, they sort of accidentally discovered that during emotional events, the neurotransmitters from the brain travel to receptors all over the body, that they're actually located everywhere and in the organs, in the muscles. And Dr pert would make statements like deep trauma puts down deep roots in the body. You know, your body is your subconscious mind, so that is very, you know, very strong underpinning for the body memory process at that whole mind, body connection that we never really understood so well before   Michael Hingson ** 18:00 one of our earliest podcasts, it was actually number 18. I just looked it up. Was with a gentleman, Dr Gabe Roberts, and it was also from, I think a pot of Palooza was the first one I attended. And he is a psychologist, and he or he deals with psychological things, but one of the things that he talked a lot about, and talks a lot about, is people's traumas and their injuries and the things that bother them and and even the things that are good are all actually holograms that are in your memory. And he calls them holograms because you can get to a particular one, and hologram usually is really something that's just composed of a whole bunch of littler holograms. But what he does to help people is to work with them to find that hologram that they thought they got rid of, that they didn't really get rid of, because everything is always in your memory, and if you don't really deal with it, then it's going to sit there and continue to to affect you. But what he does is he works to help people find those memory things that really need to be corrected, and then helps them to correct it was fascinating interview. As I said, it's number 18 and unstoppable mindset. So my point it'd be, I think you might find it fun, and I think other people might find it fun to   Kathi Sohn ** 19:30 listen to. Yeah, definitely that. That sounds incredibly interesting. He's   Michael Hingson ** 19:35 in Kansas. I'm not sure if it's Kansas City, but he's in the Kansas area somewhere, as I recall, well, so you did all that, and then you, you were working at the Department of Defense. Were you a civilian and working essentially as a contractor, or working,   Kathi Sohn ** 19:52 yes, as a civilian? I It was sort of a natural, you know, from being in the military. Then I was. Able to find an assignment as a civilian when I got I only did four years in the Army. I never intended it really to be a lifetime career, but it was enough time again for me to turn things around. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 20:14 that's not the issue, isn't it? Yes,   20:17 yes, absolutely.   Michael Hingson ** 20:19 So I mean, that's, that's and your father. So your father was right, and obviously he cared a lot about you Yes,   Kathi Sohn ** 20:27 and helped me with that. I Yes, I, my father did me such a great service by pointing me in that direction. I mean, my, my, you know, incredible career that I could not have imagined myself in if he hadn't pointed me in that direction, so I don't know what I would be doing. Hopefully it's still not floundering in college somewhere.   Michael Hingson ** 20:49 Yeah, so is there a truth to the old Jerry Lewis song, the baby gets a gravy and the army gets the beans. But anyway, it's a cute song. I listen to it every so often on my little Amazon Echo device. It's cute, yeah. But so, so when did you meet your husband through all this?   Kathi Sohn ** 21:11 Yeah, so it was 1994 and so I was pretty much square in the middle of my my career, my civilian career. And it was a there was a friend of mine that was sort of a mutual friend. She she knew him as well. I was living in Maryland, and David was living in Alabama, actually, where I live now. And she kept saying, You got to meet this guy. And kept saying to him, You got to meet this girl. It was one of those sort of matchmaker deals. And and she was right, even though the the both David and I weren't really looking for someone. So when she actually dragged him to my doorstep on Fourth of July, 1994 you know, there were some sparks, I think that we acknowledged that, but it took some time. I mean, we dated for almost three years before we were married, and then we were we were married for about 25 years, wow, before I last, before I lost David, and it was, you know, really wonderful. And, like all marriages, you know, some some, some ups and downs, but the overall theme was that we supported each other, you know, he was, you know, really incredible. I spent I would go to, I would go to war zones every now and then he would tell people, yeah, and then she came home with a flack vest and said, you know, by the way, this is where I'm going to be going. You know, when, when I came to him, and I guess it was 20 so 2017 I'm trying to what exactly, before that was 2015 the kids were still pretty young, but it was, it was really important for me to do a job, actually, in Afghanistan that was going to take me away from home for six months there. And he said, You know what, if it's if it's important to you, it's important to me, and we'll make it work. And he came from a military family, so we really understood that type of, yeah, he understood mission and commitment, right? And yeah. So he was probably never,   Michael Hingson ** 23:38 I never, needless to say, got to serve in the military because they they don't. When the draft was around, they wouldn't draft blind people, and later on, they wouldn't allow blind people to enlist, although, during the time of Afghanistan and Iraq, there were a few people who lost eyesight while in the military, and a couple of a few of them were allowed to to continue. But they never let me do that, and I, and I, and I understand the the prejudice, if you will, but it, it doesn't really stand that everyone has to be able to go into combat directly, and they could have found other jobs, but that's okay, and I certainly don't hold it against the military in any way, but I do appreciate the responsibility, and I've learned enough about military life from talking to a number of people and and my father was in World War Two, so starting with him, but others learning a lot about military. I appreciate what you're saying about it taught you a lot about responsibility. It taught you about commitment and so on. The closest I come to that is when I worked at Guide Dogs for the Blind any number of the puppy raiser families, those are the families that have agreed to take a guide dog puppy when they're about nine weeks old and they'll raise the dog, teach them basic obedience, teach them how to behave. In public and so on. And one of the things that children say, young kids who want to be puppy raisers and who take on the responsibility, is they learn so much about responsibility from doing that, because when they take on the job, it means they have to do the job, because the dog has to get used to somebody doing it, and they do such a wonderful job of raising these dogs who come back and they, a lot of them, become successful guide dogs. Not every dog does, because not every dog is really cut out to be a guide dog, but it's, it's not military, but it is still teaching responsibility and commitment. And the young kids who do it and really catch on are great. Yeah,   Kathi Sohn ** 25:42 yeah. So yeah, I can see the corollary there,   Michael Hingson ** 25:45 yeah, oh yeah. There's definitely some. It's pretty cool. Well, so I'm sorry, of course, you you lost your husband. I lost my wife Three years later, as you know, in 2022 but tell me so he was for a lot of the time when you were married. Was he in the military, or did he do other things? No,   Kathi Sohn ** 26:06 he was not in the military. They would not let him in the military because when he was 14, he was he had a near death experience. He had double staff pneumonia, and he was pronounced dead for a period of time, no respirations, no heart rate for a significant period of time. And then his dad noticed Bill something on the monitor, and there he was back again, and it's one of the reasons why he had ended up actually pulling this work together. So he he wanted to be in he was actually in ROTC, and I think it's interesting that he got through all of that, and then they decided that they didn't want to medically clear him to go into the military. But the men in his family always became military officers. His his dad was a general in the Air Force, and the closest that he got was helping with medevac, like Tanzania. And I remember him telling me the some stories about that he was working as an EMT, and he managed to do some connections to be able to do this work, just to be somewhat a part of, you know, the Vietnam War, but he really wanted to to be a military officer, and they just wouldn't allow him. But I think that maybe God wouldn't allow him because he had a different mission. I'm pretty convinced of that. So,   Michael Hingson ** 27:36 so he became a doctor.   Kathi Sohn ** 27:40 No, he, he had a couple of very advanced degrees, and, let me had a couple of doctorates, but he did not choose to not a medical doctor, to be a medical doctor, right, and do any type of mainstream work, because what he, what he brought in, was really kind of cutting edge, and you wanted to have the freedom, to be able to to put the work together without somebody telling them that, you know, is got it for regulations. He couldn't do that.   Michael Hingson ** 28:11 Well, let's get to it. I know you've alluded to it, and we've kind of circled around it. So tell us about the body memory process, and tell us what he did and all that you want to tell us about that Sure.   Kathi Sohn ** 28:24 So I talked a little earlier about the some of the the I talked about Dr Candice Kurt and the what she talked about with the by the mind body connection, what she learned and right about that time was also some research by Dr David Chamberlain about the consciousness of babies. Just, you know, they didn't even realize, I mean, the birthing practices were actually rather traumatic, really, just regular birthing practices in terms of the baby coming from that warm environment into a rather cool temperatures and very bright lights. So Dr Chamberlain did a lot of work. He wrote books like babies, remember birth and the mind of your unborn baby. And really brought a lot to bear about about how influential that period of time in our life can be. So then to take a couple steps backwards. First, we talked about David having that near death experience, and as he was growing up, the doctors kept telling him that he was never truly going to be well, and he kind of railed against that, and he was like, Well, you know, it really brought him to wonder, okay, what truly is wellness? So back in, back in that day, nobody was really talking about it. I think that if you look online these days, you see a lot of different theories about wellness and. You know, is across a spectrum, right of not just mind, body and spirit, but so many other things, including environmental factors. But he, in his quest for wellness, he did study the Far Eastern medicine medical practices, and he he studied Dr Chamberlain's work and about the such as Dr perks work, about the mind body connection. And so he pulled together what he called the body memory process, based upon the fact that what we believe, like the power of belief and the mind body connection and the awareness of babies and children that we had never really realized before about how they actually can create their reality. I mean, they they, but Dr Bruce Lipton calls if you're familiar with biology and belief, he talks about putting these programs in the place that we you know, we're born with sort of the operating system, but we need the programs. And so what we observe and what we experienced before we're seven years old, largely, we put together the core belief system. And so that's the body memory process is about, you know, basically how this all comes about. That's sort of like the this, the sort of the in the information part, there's a discovery part, which is, you know, what are your childhood vows? David called them vows, because, just like wedding bows, they're about what we promise ourselves, about how we're going to be in life, based upon these decisions we make when we're very, very young and and then so between, you know that that mind, body, spirit, side of things, he pulled together this process where, after you have discovered what your vows are, then there is a release process, how to be able to let that go. And these, these beliefs are in, these Vows are actually in our cell memory, kind of like that hologram that you were talking about before, and David created a process for people to be able to then, sort of like, if it's a vow, then to disavow it, to be able to empty the cell memory. Because he said, If you, if the cup is full, right, you can't put anything new in, you know? You can try with affirmations, you can try, through willpower, to change a habit, but if you, but if you have these, these, this energetic you know aspect to yourself, these vows that are actually in your subconscious and are there, then it needs to be dealt with. That energy needs to be released in order to be able to truly create what you want in the present moment as an adult.   Michael Hingson ** 33:11 Hence the title of your book. You made it up now stop believing it. Yes, yeah. I figured I love the title. That's a great title. So, so what exactly is the body memory process then?   Kathi Sohn ** 33:27 So it's the book goes into live details about it, you know, there, there is a discovery aspect to it, you know, and there's that's that involves both subjective and objective data, if you will. It's, you know, what, what am I feeling in my body? Where do I carry tension? Maybe, if I have the same thing, you know, sort of happening over and over again, like I I always, maybe, maybe it's the right side of my body where I'm always, maybe I'm stubbing my right toe or, you know, maybe I've, whenever I have a I fall down, you know, it's always like, I land on the right side, and I create problems there, and maybe I have a really tight right hip. You know, it's like, what, what's going on in your in your body? It's about what's going on in your life. I mean, how are, how are things overall, with your health, with your finances, with your relationships, with your career. And then there's, you know what? What was going on start in your very early life, starting with when you were in the womb, like, what was going on with mom, you know what? And that's sort of like an investigative process that clients get to do, you know, if mom is still around then, that she's really probably the best source of information there, but there could be other family members who are who are aware, and sometimes you don't. Get a lot, or maybe you don't even get any information from that period of time, and you need to just do a lot of this work through, through, you know, through intuition and and being being able to take a look at sample beliefs, which I have a collection of over 900 that David had gathered over the years of working with his clients, and to be able to take a look and see what resonates. You know, clients find that very valuable. To be able to say, oh, yeah, yep, that's absolutely me, you know, right there, because sometimes it's difficult to access it, because it's in the subconscious. I I have a video that I've created to help walk people through that discovery process. And since losing David, I've done whatever I can to sort of replicate what he was able to do quite intuitively. He would, he would be with someone for about three, three and a half hours, and he could just laser being right to do what was going on based upon how they were talking about what was going in their life, on in their life now and then, talking about what their childhood was like, Mom, Dad, how the relationship was. He would listen to how they would talk. He called it listening them, not listening to because when you're listening to someone, sometimes you're already thinking about what you want to say next to contribute to the conversation, which is fine, but when you're when you're listening someone. You're giving them that full space. You pull in all your energy, and you give them the full attention so that you can catch them saying pretty much their script. He said, you could, you know, you could hear even their birth script like they would, their belief system would just sort of come out. And the things that they would say, like, well, I know nobody ever really believes me, right? So as an example, and sometimes we might say that sort of in just in talking, it's sort of an assumption there that people just let that go, unless there's someone who's really engaged and says, Hey, wait a minute, let's talk about that a little bit like, what's the evidence that you have that nobody ever believes you and and sometimes people need to be able to take some of these assumptions that they that they just find they live their life by, and actually challenge them and say, you know, where does that come from? And try to get back to, you know, when, when that first occurred, because then thereafter, a lot of times it's just a self fulfilling prophecy, and every and he just keeps reinforcing itself.   Michael Hingson ** 37:48 Well, yeah, and we, we sell ourselves short in so many ways. And one of the things that you talked a little bit about is is childhood and so many people think, well, you're when you're when you grow up, your childhood is left behind. And I gather that you're saying, No, that's not true, because even from the womb, there's memory. How. How do we know that?   Kathi Sohn ** 38:16 Really, I think it's if you don't just sort of deal with whatever was going on back then, then it is going to sort of reach up and bite you at some point. I mean, everybody has something, even the people who say they have the have had the most perfect childhood. Because it's not about when I talk about childhood trauma in the book, and I talk about trauma, it's not about abuse and neglect. I mean, unfortunately that happens to many, but it's about how we actually sort of traumatize ourselves, because we're not yet logical. So before we're seven, we're not we're not even logical, and we're largely, you know, in our emotional brain, and we're the center of our own universe. We're very egocentrical During those years, and so we tend to jump to the conclusion that it's about right, it's about me, something happened, or mom and dad are fighting. It's about me, right? Or anything that goes wrong, it's either about something I did or something I didn't do. That was really big for me, like it's one of the other damned if I do, damned if I don't. So yeah, I would, I would be willing to make a rather bold statement that says everyone has something that they could look at from their early life, and that, because it's having some type of an impact on your adult life.   Michael Hingson ** 39:45 Has anyone ever used hypnosis to help somebody actually go back and and either at least learn about maybe that early childhood or even pre birth kind of thing   Kathi Sohn ** 39:59 I'm. Sure. I mean, so, you know, David created his work, and he called it the body memory process. It's not the only game in town, right there. There are other people who are are doing other things that are similar. I think Hypno, hypnosis, hypnotherapy, can get you there as well. I think that there's also something called rebirthing that was something that was going on, I think, that came out of the of the 80s as well, which was about, very specifically, getting you back to when you were born, right? What was going on during that time? So I think that you know anything that that that works for for you, to get you, you know, back into that time period is good. I think what makes David's work so especially powerful is that he has a very balanced sort of mind, body, spirit approach. And that is not just about, well, here's the bad news. It's about, you know, here's the good news too, because here's a way to be able to let that go and and to be able to move on. You know, I when we talk about, when I talk about this topic of going back to your childhood, I always think of that scene from The Lion King, where the monkey, you know, Rafiki, sort of bops The Lion, the young lion, Simba on the head right with the stick that says, It doesn't matter. It's all in the past. And that's true to on the one hand, because we need not dwell on the past, we need to be able to get the goodness from it, learn from it. That's the point, and then be able to let it go. And I think that's what the body memory process does, is it takes us back to be able to do that, that self examination, and then gives us a way to then be able to move on and not dwell on it, because it's not who we are. It's not it doesn't define us, even though, if we're not aware of it, we inadvertently let it define us. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:10 and that's the issue. It's like I always say, and many people say, in the National Federation of blind, blindness doesn't define us. It is part of who we are, but it doesn't define us. But when we allow something specific to define us without understanding the importance of it, that's a problem, but that is something that we have control over if we choose to do it.   Kathi Sohn ** 42:32 Yes, yes, absolutely. So how did David   Michael Hingson ** 42:36 come to actually create the whole concept of the body memory process.   Kathi Sohn ** 42:42 Well, you know, again, I think it was his personal quest for wellness that got him, you know, into doing the the investigative work that he did. He actually had other other work that he was doing for a while. He did a home restoration, you know. And he was a builder, a home builder, at one point, but this work just really kept calling him. And it was, I think, the early 80s. It was somewhere around 1984 I think that he started actually working with clients where he had pulled together all of this information and created the the discovery and then the release process for poor beliefs. But he there was someone who actually paid for him to go through a lot of the trainings that were going on in the 80s, like life, spring was one of them, and there's a few others where I think there was this human potential movement. Back during that time, people were starting to turn inward. And then, of course, at the same time all of this research was was coming out, like Dr Chamberlain and Dr PERT. So I think that David was is sort of like in the middle of a perfect storm to be able to create this because he had his own personal motivation. He had access to the all of the state of the art research that was going on around him during that time period, and he was also very intelligent and very intuitive. So he said that when he came back from his near death experience, he he knew that there, there was a reason that he came back. So I think he always had a sense of mission that he wanted to make a contribution to the world. And then it just over time, it just became clearer and clearer what that was. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 44:51 So have you had any direct experience with the body memory process? I.   Kathi Sohn ** 44:59 Yes, I absolutely have. I used to tell David that I was his poster child because of, because I had a lot of stuff that I was dealing with. I I had a birth mom, and then I had an adoptive mom, and I had, you know, my own, my own baggage that came from, from both. So I had, you know, many layers to, you know, to work through. But I guess, you know, there's always got to be something. You know, David said that he would work with the greedy, the needy and the greedy. He said the needy were the were people who ended up in some sort of crisis, because this, if you call it, your life script, which was another word for this collection of vows that we create during early life, that your your life script can either keep you in your comfort zone or it will keep you in crisis. There's really, there's, there's really two, but two, those two avenues, when you have this unexplored stuff that's that's going on, right? And then the greedy are the people who would like pretty good and they just want more, and he's so and it's all valid. It's all good, right? The different avenues that lead us to the work. For me, it really was a personal crisis that had been simmering for me through all of my life, starting when I was very, very young. I mentioned earlier that I was kind of shy, but it was really, really difficult for me just to just through school when you know I knew the answers to things. I wanted to be able to to talk in front of the class, but it was so scary for me just to be the center of attention. It was just, I just think of, there's some of the stories are kind of funny in my mind about what happened, even to the point where once I got in front of the class and I was laughing at my own science fiction story that I had written, and then everybody else started laughing. And that was actually a pretty positive experience, but most of them were rather negative, but it didn't really come to a head for me until I was a manager. I worked my up, my way up in at the Defense Department, and I was in in charge of an office. I I needed to be able to speak to my personnel. I had staff meetings, and I had greater and greater responsibilities. I needed to lead conferences and things like that. And I became face to face with my own fears of just being in front of a great as bigger and bigger rooms of people. And I know that, you know, this is a common thing for for for people, common fear with public speaking. But for me, it was, it's just, I can't even explain on the inside how difficult it was. I managed to pull it off a lot of times, and people would compliment me, and they didn't, you know, like you didn't look nervous. But I realized that I had to deal with it, or it was going to make me ill because of internally, the turmoil I was going through. And so I did use the work and ended up discovering, I told you that my parents adopted kids from very difficult beginnings, as it as I discovered, again, that's another story, but a little bit later in life, I had been, you know, basically At six months I had been born, though, from from an attack from my birth mom, so she tried to to do a home abortion when I was six, only six months along, and so that was rather traumatic, you know? I ended up born. I was an orphan, and I didn't have, you know, I wasn't received into the world by a loving mom. And then I think what was piled on top of that was the fact that I was in an incubator, and I was peered at by the medical staff, probably many of whom didn't think I was going to make it. So, you know, when you again, based upon the work that Dr Chamberlain did, and the idea of the connectedness, and that everything is about energy, and that there is communication that's going on, but it's at a sort of at a vibrational level, and that the infant is actually able to pick up on that, it's not, it's not about language, right? It's not about their mental development. It's something else that, you know, it just, it puts it's it puts these foundations within us into into place, until again, we're able to get back into that energy and be able. To deal with it. So for me, it was about that judgment. Whenever I got myself, got in front of a room, you know, I was that little baby in an incubator, and people that were, you know, like, I don't think she's going to make it. And so that was sort of a, if you picture, if you, if you kind of take that and overlay that on, you know, speaking in front of a room, what is not being able to make it or, you know, or dying, you know, it's like, Well, I kind of screw up, right? I forget what I was going to say. Or, but, and again, it's not, it's not, it's not rational. I couldn't say that it was I knew very specifically of what the turmoil was about. It was just about this intense energy that I could not define. But it was there for me. It was like I was right back in that incubator being evaluated and fighting for my life.   Michael Hingson ** 51:01 So what did you do?   Kathi Sohn ** 51:04 Well, I did the body memory process. Well, first I had my my my David and I sat down, and we really explored it, and I was able to put words to it. So for me, it was they watched me to see when I'm going to die and when I was able to do the body memory process, and again, it's all outlined in the book, but you know, the specific process around that I was able to, over time, increasingly, be able to feel comfortable in front of a room. And now I do public speaking, I'm able to be on camera and take David's work, you know, really to the world, and be the face of the work. If he had said that I was going to be doing this back in those years, I would have said, You've got to be kidding me. There's no way that I could, that I could do that through most of the years. When I had David, I was so thankful that he was the one who stood in front of the room right he was the one in front of the camera, and I was very happy to support him from behind the scenes. But I think that when I made the decision to carry on his work, and I think that's when I did the final steps of the process of being able to release all of that and say, Okay, again, that's in the past. Right to to be able to have to let that go, realize it for what it was. But it's not about who I am now. But   Michael Hingson ** 52:35 the issue is that you recognize it, you you learn from it, which is why it's important that you acknowledge it, yes. And you know, in live like a guide dog. We talk, as you know, about self analysis, introspection and so on. And I wish more people would do it. And I wish people would do it more often. I'm a fan of saying that people should do it every day. You should look at what at the end of the day. Look at what happened today, what worked, what didn't work, and even the stuff that worked, could I do it better, or the stuff that maybe didn't work? It's not a failure, it's a learning experience, and you should use it and treat it as that, which is why I also tell people never use the term. I'm my own worst critic. I've learned that I'm my own best teacher, which is a whole lot more positive anyway.   Kathi Sohn ** 53:25 Yes, absolutely. The other thing, Michael and Anna, and this is from, I think, in an interview that you were in when they were talking about what you were going through on 911 and you know you as the you were thinking to saying to God, gee, we got through one tower, and now there's another one coming down and and what are we facing? And that you you your own guidance you heard about. Just don't try to just what you can control. Can worry about what you can Right, right? And I think that's what this work is about, is that if we go through life and we're not we don't know that all of this is operating below the surface. It's so easy to blame events and people and circumstances and conditions for everything, but if we're willing to take personal responsibility, and go back to those early years, then we are doing something about what we can do, and then when we go forward in our adult life, we can handle those crises, and we can be much more in control of ourselves. And that's where we're we're truly in a place of power, because we can't control all those events and conditions, but we can be, you know, I just think again, that's why you're so inspirational. Like, okay, you know, you couldn't do anything about what was going on around you in in New York, but you were able to be. Com and trust your dog and to trust God, and that's the way we want to be in life.   Michael Hingson ** 55:06 Well, and that went both ways. The dog trusted me as well, and it and it really is a two way trust situation. You know, I read articles even as late as 30 years after I was born, about people who became blind from the same thing that I did, retroenter fibroplasia, now called retinopathy or prematurity, and I'll never understand why they changed the name doesn't change anything. But anyway, people sued their doctors, even 30 years later, and won lawsuits because medical science had started to learn. At least a couple of doctors had discovered. One specifically discovered that giving a child in an incubator, a premature baby, a pure oxygen environment, 24 hours a day, could be a problem for retinal development, and even if you gave them a little bit of regular error, the incidence of blindness went to zero, but it wasn't accepted by medical science, and so people sued, and they won, and I and I asked my dad one day, what do you think? Should we go back and sue the doctors? And he said, and what would it accomplish? Yeah, and he was absolutely right. And I wasn't asking him, because I was ready to go do it. I was just curious to see what he thought about it. And he thought, really, the same thing that I did, what would it accomplish? Even if we won, it doesn't do anything, and it ruins lives, because the doctors were doing the best with what they had. You couldn't prove negligence, yeah,   Kathi Sohn ** 56:39 absolutely it's they were doing the best with the information they had, and that's the way we should be with ourselves too, right? This isn't about going back and then get feeling guilty or blaming your parents or, you know, blaming yourself. We did the best that we in our own lives, at every stage of our lives. You know, we really are doing the best that we can with the information and the resources that we have   Michael Hingson ** 57:04 exactly, and that's what we should do. Yes. So what are some ways that people can benefit from the body memory process?   Kathi Sohn ** 57:14 Well, you know, again, I get, I had mentioned that 360 degree, look at your life there, there's, there's so many ways that you you can can benefit, because when you have this energy that you haven't discovered these, these, these beliefs, there, there is, there are words that You can put to it, and that actually plays out in your life, sometimes in very, very limiting ways. And you know, if you're looking at, say, finances, if you were raised with, you know the root of money, the root of evil is, you know money is the root of evil. You know that in you have that operating, then you're you're going to have a limit, a limit, you know, a limited way that you're interacting with money. I like to talk about some of the rather innocuous ways that, you know, relatives talk to us when we're little, and, you know, they end up impacting us as adults and limiting us, for example, if, if I have an uncle who says, Well, you know this, the Smiths are hard workers. We work hard for every penny. We don't make a lot, but we work really hard for every penny we make. It's like, okay, well, gee thanks. Now, you know, I'm going to grow up, and that's in there, in my subconscious. And, you know, I, I'm gonna, I believe that I have to work hard. And not only do I have to work hard, but I'm, you know, I may, I can't really earn money easily, right? So maybe investments are off the table for me, investments that might yield, you know, a lot of money. I mean, there's, there's, there's so many ways that this plays out in our life, and we don't even know that it's it's impacting us in what we do, and then what we're not doing, you know, if we're not taking risks, that could actually be good for us because of this. So people would benefit from from just taking a look, because you don't know, you know where it could could help you, but I can say that it can help you across health, across finances, relationships. That's huge about you know, what you observed in your parents and how they talk to each other, and then how how you are in relationship as an adult. So in so many different really, those important areas of our lives, this type of work can really benefit. There   Michael Hingson ** 59:57 are so many things that. Happen to us, or that we become involved in in some way or another, that are really things that we chose to have happen, maybe whether we realize it or not, and it's really all about choice, and likewise, we can choose to be successful. It may not happen exactly the way we think, but it's still a matter of choice, and that is something that is so important, I think, for people to learn about and to understand that you can make choices, and it's it's all about learning. So when you make a choice, if it doesn't work out, or it doesn't work out the way you thought, and it's not a problem, or it is a problem, then you make another choice, but if we don't explore and we don't learn, we won't go anywhere, right, right? Well, this has been a lot of fun, and I hope people will go out and buy the book again. You made it up. Now stop believing it. I love the title and and I hope that people will get it. We put a picture of it in the show notes, so definitely go check it out. And I want to thank you for being here and spending the last hour plus with us. I I've enjoyed it. I've learned a lot, and I always like to learn, so that's why doing this podcast is so much fun. So thank you for that. And I want to thank you all for listening wherever you are or watching if you're on YouTube. Cathy was a little bit worried about her room isn't as neat as she maybe wanted it, so she wasn't sure whether it was going to be great to video. And I pointed out, I don't have a background or anything. Don't worry about it. The only thing I do is close my door so my cat won't come in and bother us.   1:01:41 Oh, yeah, me too, yeah. Well, stitch   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:44 is probably out there waiting, because it's getting close to one of them many times during the day that she wants to eat, and I have to pet her while she eats. So we do have our obligations in life. Yes, we do, but it's fun, but I want to thank you for being here. But thank you all, and please, wherever you're listening or watching, give us a five star review. We value it. I'd love to hear your thoughts about today and our episode. So if you would email me, I'd appreciate it. Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, or go to our podcast page. Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael hingson is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, S o, n.com/podcast, definitely love to get your thoughts Kathy. How do people get a hold of you if they want to learn more? Or are you are you doing coaching or working with people today?   Kathi Sohn ** 1:02:37 Yes. So if you go to Kathi sohn.com, that's k, A, T, H, I, s, O, H n.com, there's a lot of information on there. You can learn more about body memory. You can get a free chapter of the book. I have a couple other free gifts on there. You can and you can learn about my coaching programs. I have private coaching and for individuals, and I love to work with parents as well.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:06 Well, there you go. There you go. So Kathisohn.com and I hope people will do that again. We really appreciate a five star review. And Kathy for you, and all of you out there, if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, because you feel they have a story they should tell introduce us. And if they don't think they can come on and tell the story, I'll talk with them. And oftentimes I can show people why it's important that they come on and tell their story. A lot of times, people say, I don't really have anything that makes me unique or different. Well, yeah, you do the fact that you're you, but anyway, if you know anyone who ought to be a guest, we'd love to hear from you and Kathy, if you know anyone same for you. But again, I really appreciate you being here and being a part of unstoppable mindset today. So thank you very much for coming.   1:03:56 Yes, thank you for having me here.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:02 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

“Anime”? What is that? Well, listen to our guest this time, Maison Collawn who will explain. Maison was diagnosed as “developmentally delayed” when he was under three years old. By the age of seven his diagnosis was changed to label him as someone with autism, more specifically at the time, he was diagnosed as having Asperger Syndrome. Yes, Maison grew up understanding that he was different. He did not always handle difference well, especially while growing up. Over time he came to realize that difference did not mean he was less than others. As you will discover, Maison is quite bright and has learned to live in the world just like most all of us. He has a job as an Assistant Produce Manager at a Kroger store.   Maison made television quite a hobby and vehicle for his entertainment. He and I talk quite a bit about media entertainment and have a fascinating conversation about the future of television and even motion pictures. Given his observations, it is difficult to disagree where he thinks media entertainment is headed.   In addition to work, participating in his community and enjoying television he also hosts a podcast. I met Maison through the Podapalooza event program we have discussed in earlier episodes. I had the opportunity to participate as a guest on his podcast, MC Anime Podcast. He agreed to reciprocate and here we are. I hope you enjoy Maison and his life philosophy.       About the Guest:   Maison Collawn is the creator and host of the MC Anime Podcast, where he channels his passion for communication into exploring diverse topics and fostering meaningful discussions with listeners. Living with autism has profoundly influenced his worldview and his approach to engaging with others, allowing him to connect on a deeper level with audiences. His journey into media and communications was shaped by his academic background, including an Associate's degree in Social Science from Reynolds Community College and a certificate in Journalism. These achievements reflect his commitment to understanding people and society, as well as his dedication to improving his skills in storytelling and media. A natural communicator, Maison thrives in spaces that encourage conversation and idea exchange. His podcast, which blends insightful commentary with personal stories, is a platform where he engages with a variety of topics, ranging from anime and pop culture to broader discussions about social issues and human behavior. Through the MC Anime Podcast, he has developed strong interviewing and research skills, creating a space for guests to share their perspectives and for listeners to engage in thought-provoking dialogues. Beyond podcasting, Maison is committed to staying active in his community and constantly exploring new avenues for growth. Whether through his academic work, community outreach, or journalistic pursuits, he is always seeking to connect with others and expand his understanding of the world. His desire to try new things, learn from others, and share knowledge fuels his ongoing exploration of mass communications, especially in the realms of media and journalism. He believes in the power of thoughtful, meaningful conversation to create positive change. In everything he does, he is driven by a passion for people—listening to their stories, understanding their experiences, and using his voice to make a positive impact. Through the MC Anime Podcast and other endeavors, he aims to bridge gaps in understanding and bring diverse voices together, creating a space where all perspectives are valued and heard. Whether speaking about his own experiences or exploring the stories of others, his mission is clear: to engage, inspire, and foster a sense of community.   Ways to connect Maison:   http://www.facebook.com/BlogMCAnime and my collection of links is https://linktr.ee/MCAnime   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone. Welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Michael Hingson, and today we have a guest who I'm really excited to talk to and talk about. We could talk about him, but I'd love to talk with him. So Maison, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. Why don't you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you?   Maison Collawn ** 01:47 Hey guys. So my name is Maison. Maison Collawn for that matter, and I am a fellow podcast myself. I want MCMA podcast. Want to launch voice of the voiceless. I am a typical person who likes entertainment, Asian culture with a twist and overall, speaking in general, as a medium to present me to myself, I did   Michael Hingson ** 02:15 so tell me about this Asian culture with a twist that sounds intriguing.   Maison Collawn ** 02:20 So Asian cultural twist typically includes two aspects of what the coverage of the podcast is. One is Japanese esthetics and Asian studies. So I take on different like historical perspectives, like, for example, when I did Western storytelling and Eastern storytelling, where I was, I dissected each of the main stories that was in those civilizations, like Journey to the West, with Asia and the Odyssey with Western civilization, and then we compare them both, and did a case by Case Study side by   Michael Hingson ** 03:01 side. So what got you interested in that? Ah,   Maison Collawn ** 03:04 I think it was the well, in the anime that, because I didn't realize I watched anime when I was younger, like Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh, and then when I re watched those shows, because I would, you know when to relive nostalgic days, I found that this is actually anime. So it's anime from Japan with Japanese culture. So by diving into Japanese culture animated TV shows, I was able to have a broader aspect of Oh. So if this is Japan. And then they also touch on Asia. That's for some aspects of Asia too, and just also history is something I like. So knowing about it and talking about it is pretty easy.   Michael Hingson ** 03:54 So dealing with animating and Japan and the culture and so on. Did you watch all the Godzilla movies from Japan over the years? I've   Maison Collawn ** 04:05 seen a couple of them. I hadn't seen all of them. Um, there's a lot in the franchise, like Gotha and the God of all monsters, but the law is very interesting, because you got mecha Godzilla in there, you have King Kong and somehow in there, but Godzilla is facing all these different beasts. But I would like Godzilla as a film to study. They use a lot of claymation in the formation of movie sets in the early days, right?   Michael Hingson ** 04:40 I remember the original Godzilla movie. I think it was 1955 maybe it was earlier than that, but, yeah, I think was around 1955 but it definitely became part of the culture over the years. And then, then, of course, it got picked up over here. The original King Kong versus Godzilla. Was a US movie, not a Japanese movie, but everybody put their own spin and brought their own things to it. It's, it's kind of fascinating. Yeah,   Maison Collawn ** 05:09 well, his own genre, Sky juice. Yes, giant creatures. Tell   Michael Hingson ** 05:14 me something about you growing up that of the early Mason if you would tell us a little bit about kind of your your young background and all that, so people get to know you better. So   Maison Collawn ** 05:25 my younger background is I sought out negative attention, how I struggle. I was misunderstood. And instead of positive reinforcements, I sought out the negative attention. So what I did with the negative attention was I anticipate. People and be the antagonizer. I got to the point where they care what people thought. I just accepted that I am who I am, and I'll live who I would to be. And if you don't like me or well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:59 well you are, you are different in some ways than a lot of people tell us about that. Because obviously you, you, you do have differences. And you know what people would say, you have disabilities, although I would, I would argue that disability does not mean lack of ability. So just so you know where I'm coming from, but tell us about the about you all that.   Maison Collawn ** 06:23 So I was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome disorder. So before that became autism as a whole, because they changed ASD to autism syndrome disorder instead, because I just did one umbrella was I was high functioning. So in that community, high functioning was seen as you're more your average, but you're socially awkward. You could do some things and but you still have some small discrepancies that people can make pick up on, but these people picking up on it might not see it necessarily. In a normal, more severe case of autism, I was a less severe case, so that's how that was. I was able to function more academics. Was high typically only had one area. I struggled stuff like that. But political correctness now is they don't use the term high functioning because it just it creates this different learning curve that's applied to other people, because people in autism and the spectrum learn on different ways, and just one person who's high functioning or a mild case or a severe case, all of them interact and have the disability in a different way.   Michael Hingson ** 08:01 And so you have other disabilities or, or I   Maison Collawn ** 08:06 have also odd, I'm sorry, oppositional, oppositional defiance disorder. So I would oppose authority, and I will be combative, or potentially like to get an argument, and I'm more prone to it than, say, a normal, neurotypical person. How do you deal with that? Lots of trial and error. If one thing doesn't work and the same thing keeps happening, I would talk it out and eventually figure out a solution. I know with my younger days when I was working odd would trigger, and I would create situations where the management, staff, food line that I worked at would also, lot of times, intervene. We'll have meetings, discuss what I did, what I did wrong, and talk about it. And at times it was like maybe I said something I shouldn't, or there's an outburst, or I'm just not speaking professional, so we had to take the time to address the issue and keep talking about it because of that. So it's still an ongoing thing, but it's got a lot better in some aspects, and not as openly defined. It's more like I misunderstand directions, or I might take the wrong context and react differently.   Michael Hingson ** 09:52 Well, I think there are a lot of people that do that, actually, but, but you know, I hear what you're I hear. What you're saying, and it's part of you know who you are, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's fine. I have had lots of discussions with people about the whole concept of disabilities, and one of the things that I have said, especially over the last year, is that disability is not a lack of ability, but rather, disability is a characteristic that everyone has. It manifests itself differently for different people. For most people on the planet, the disability that they have is that they're light dependent, and you don't do well without light and that doesn't mean that you can't but we are brought up primarily as light dependent people we are brought up with, you got to have light. And now, with the fact that light is so available on demand because of Thomas Edison, the disability gets covered up a lot, but it doesn't mean that it isn't there. And so the reality is that that it is a characteristic that everyone has, and it manifests itself differently for different people, but it doesn't make anyone less than anyone else, or it should or it shouldn't anyway.   Maison Collawn ** 11:06 Well, my manifestation of disability is through social skills, non verbal communication, executive function, such a decision making like if I were to this is a common example that could be applied to me stopped by a police officer, I'm more likely to be hauled up for questioning because they don't understand how to deal with me. I'm not trying to be a guilty party that they can suspect me as a guilt, let's say I wore my eyes not paying attention, or stuttering, or whatever is happening. They could determine that to be, oh, he's suspicious. He's a suspect. He is hiding something, right? So with that being said, that could be is a realized situation where there's not enough awareness, if they don't know, they're going to treat me like I have, like I have a criminal tendency,   Michael Hingson ** 12:11 right? And they make assumptions and and operate accordingly, without really having enough information or knowledge about how to get the information that they need to have. And that's something that we we see a lot. You know, when I was born, and I was born two months premature, and when it was discovered I was blind, the doctor said, send them to a home, because no blind child can ever grow up to amount to anything. And that is still all too often, the way blind children and blind people in general are treated today, you're blind, you can't possibly be as competent overall as a person with eyesight, and that's just simply not true, but that is the way we bring people up. Well,   Maison Collawn ** 12:59 there's a different way of learning, different way to to go with it, but also navigation on without sight, to get access to information that sighted people have   Michael Hingson ** 13:12 well, and the reason that they have the information is because they're a whole lot more sighted people than than blind people. And so we make the world site oriented, and it is very difficult to get society to change and recognize that we really need to be able to accommodate both categories sighted and non sighted, or any number of other different kinds of differences, and accommodate   Maison Collawn ** 13:41 them, non neotypical and neotypical. That's the aspect as well.   Michael Hingson ** 13:46 Sure, it's an issue to deal with. So when were you originally diagnosed as well? Let's just use the general term, a person with autism. So   Maison Collawn ** 14:00 I had two diagnosis, one for severe developmental delay, and then the other one was autism itself. So from 18 months to five years, they were saying I was delayed, and that's how a developmental delay was my diagnosis. Then they found out that was autistic at age seven. Let's change their understanding of what the diagnosis I actually had. To specific instances of they were overlaid. They were overlay similar because most psychological conditions were very similar, and typically, through as you get older, you accept more symptoms of the one you actually have, instead of the early on transgression. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 14:52 you know the the the issue is we're still learning to understand things like autism, although. Um, we're learning a lot. I've had people on this podcast who said they they had autism and it wasn't even diagnosed until they were adults, because they just didn't learn enough about it soon enough.   Maison Collawn ** 15:16 Because lot of people can have different diagnosis all at the same time. So there is no one size fit all test to think everything out   Michael Hingson ** 15:30 right. And again, it's it's a learning process, like with anything that makes anyone different. But the reality is, we're all different in so many ways. Yes, and it does need to go away, but it is   Maison Collawn ** 15:45 to constantly think about them and maybe analyze it differently. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 15:54 we're still learning to do that, and we're still working to get people to teach that to most individuals, but we'll get there. Just takes a while. Yeah, well, so you mentioned earlier that you you seek out entertainment. What medium Did you really decide was going to be the entertainment medium of choice for you, and why?   Maison Collawn ** 16:24 Well, my medium of choice was actually TV for the longest time, and it still is, and it's still a major factor in it. Um, when I was a child, the only thing I had for entertainment was TV. So my only way to spend some extra time. If I wasn't doing physical activities and other stuff with the TV, I would watch all my shows, watch movies, watch DVDs, watch stuff in the Campo, go to the flea market, watch the TV and the trailer on Saturday night morning, watch different cartoons, that type of stuff. As I grew up, the more TV I watched, it just became mainstream. I got older, it kind of went to streaming, but it's still TV related. So you can say that I changed streaming from TV, but in reality, it still shows that I'm watching so it's still TV shows most likely, and   Michael Hingson ** 17:28 that that satisfied something in your psyche, I gather,   Maison Collawn ** 17:34 yeah, it the it was the As how storytelling can be interesting. It can be compelling, those different plots, those different tropes, those archetypes out there that can tell what is going on in the general sense, and they can apply that to the show. And you can see different patterns falling a line in the show itself. Well.   Michael Hingson ** 17:58 So for you, you've obviously watched a lot of TV. How do you think that TV has changed as a medium over the years, and has it become better or worse? Or is that really a judgment anyone can make?   Maison Collawn ** 18:15 Well, TV has changed dramatically in the sense that not everyone is available to watch live content on the broadcasting as much they rather there's been a change in focus to streaming so they can watch this TV show, no no ads. They can watch it anytime they want. Basically Video on Demand become the change that TV has tried to do, but it's different. That's why cable services just to compete. They have video on demand you can watch the next day on shows. That's why some TV networks like revising stuff like that, is able to compete with streaming because they have a service that's, you know, video on demand. However, streaming will probably be the major market coming forward, because people are realizing that access to all these channels is probably not worth the money you pay. So these people, companies and satellite companies are behind the times, and they're trying to scramble to keep the buyers that they have.   Michael Hingson ** 19:35 Well, in reality, it's it's definitely changing, and you're right, streaming has become so ubiquitous already, and I think people are going to have to accept that going forward, and it's going to be interesting to see how all that works out, because you've got still different streaming companies. You. That provide different content, and I wonder how that's going to be addressed over time, because people ultimately really want to stream whatever they want to stream, and different groups have different things that are popular to them. I wonder how they're going to deal with all that. Do you think that companies are going to merge? Do you think that it's going to be that some companies are just going to license other content. What do you think is going to happen?   Maison Collawn ** 20:25 Well, I think the major focus right now is for these companies to survive. Is acquisitions. Yeah, you see what happened with Disney and Hulu? Disney now I do those majority hold up Hulu Paramount is potentially going to sell in the near future. They're going to potentially, you know, look at Warner Bros. What? How many times do they get bought out? How many times they go to fox, fox, you know, you know, having different acquisitions is what these companies do. The liquidate assets. And, you know, with the anime streaming, we had fun information in country roll. Sony already bought fundation. They just load country roll information together and made country roll the sole service. So that's kind of what they're doing. What do you eat with big companies. They were doing acquisitions to meet the demand to stay, I guess, survive. What   Michael Hingson ** 21:31 do you think is going to happen to the motion picture industry, which is, of course, a different animal, but that that's an interesting one, world that's all going to fit into it, because, again, people want to start streaming movies and so on. So where do you think motion pictures are going to   Maison Collawn ** 21:49 go? Well, that's all. What a decline in motion pictures is lately, if they don't, if they keep releasing movies, that is not necessarily an original idea. There's not going to be as much as a need to go to the theaters, if you can just buy it online, straight out. I mean, if it's available on like HBO Max, and these movies are like, Well, we are offering this movie on our platform, but also being theaters too, these platforms are moving to almost live rentals that you can do so they're going into what voodoo used to be, which is a video catalog that You could buy a bunch of movies and TV shows that that might be where these movie companies are going to go. They're going to probably say, Well, if I don't get an exclusive deal with this streaming service, then I want my content to be paid to watch instead. So the licensing agreement probably be different the   Michael Hingson ** 23:08 I guess. The question is, over time, how much value will there be to having the theater experience, which is definitely going to have better sound, bigger screens and so on than you can possibly do with your television. Will that make a difference overall?   Maison Collawn ** 23:24 Well, the theater probably nostalgic, so there'll be some around, but there won't be as big business as it once was. The transition from streaming is putting the theaters to potentially go to another audience. So these they're going to go to independent movies now they're going to try to have a large audience to view it, that type of stuff. So it's going to be more nostalgic. It's going to be like what theaters are doing now. They're doing multi talent programs. They're not just doing plays, they're not just doing movies, they're doing concerts, they're doing talk shows, they're doing conferences to meet up their venue, because their venue is accessible to many different events. So these movie theaters might have to slightly tweak the mainstream movies maybe have the cater to other events for additional revenue. Do   Michael Hingson ** 24:26 you? Do you? Do you foresee the time that theater will just completely disappear? Or do you think that won't happen?   Maison Collawn ** 24:33 I don't think it'll just completely disappear. I think people want it for nostalgic. They would want it to have a more profound experience than just watching on the tablet. Yeah, now it's easier to watch on a smaller device, but who will want to spend a bunch of money on surround sound like. Stereo system just to be able to listen to it, kind of like most people don't have a home movie budget, like, you know, they don't have a room just dedicated to lounging around and having all this fancy sound equipment,   Michael Hingson ** 25:15 right? Yeah, I'm I tend to think that theater is going to be with us for a while, and that's going to change. It will change, and we'll it'll be interesting to see how it goes. But going back to to you a little bit. How have has autism progressed for you? How have you changed? And how is as you grow older, you know? How has that affected you, and autism   Maison Collawn ** 25:43 has affected me greatly. If I didn't have a kid in my mother and she didn't completely take the time to understand what I needed for education, I wouldn't be here now, now saying that I have transgressed to working with autism, so I have a job and doing it to keep working with autism, and then basically living with autism as a young adult, I've never accepted this part of who I am. It's not going to go away. It's definitely lacks impact now because of my executive function. You know, lessons that I've had over the years, the awareness, the self attention to dialog, knowing how people react to me because I'm not like them. So that type of interaction has now been shifted a little bit, because now I feel like I'm someone normal and just do my own thing. It's not really as a major aspect of my life compared to early childhood, and say, teen years.   Michael Hingson ** 27:03 So it is. It's a progression, but it is something ultimately that you accept as a part of you, which is, I think, probably the biggest issue for any of us with anything regarding us, is acknowledging you are what you are, and learning how best to utilize the gifts that you have, right?   27:25 Yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 27:28 Which makes, which makes a lot of sense.   Maison Collawn ** 27:32 Yeah, I feel that people are not necessarily underestimated any right? And degree is really how make you as a person, benefit from what you have, right? So if you have limited in this area, well, just do everything you can to get better, and if it's not copacetic, at least make it somewhat easier. Yeah, then being totally difficult, but   Michael Hingson ** 28:02 that's a choice that you get to make, which is what's important, yes, and it's all about making a choice, and it's all about knowing that you have a choice that you get to make,   Maison Collawn ** 28:17 but your agency is really up to you to to a certain point, right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:23 Which is, which is something that makes a lot of sense. And we, we all need to do that.   Maison Collawn ** 28:31 Yes, if you don't, we might be left behind to catch up later in life, right? And if you never catch up, you might just be be lost among the ways   Michael Hingson ** 28:45 well, or you might not catch up in some ways, but you might catch up and surpass in other ways, which is, which is part of what it's all about. As, as I have said many times, we all have gifts, and what we need to do is to learn to use the gifts that we have, because we're going to have gifts other people don't have, and that's okay. Which is, which is, you know, pretty important to be able to deal with.   Maison Collawn ** 29:12 Well, you need to know how to use a gift in a specific way to convey a message, convey that message, and be able to really strengthen what you have or had just figure out something that will work for you. Mm, hmm. Doesn't have to be the drastic change in life that you're looking for. It could be something unexpected, and you just find it by accident, right? No,   Michael Hingson ** 29:40 no question about it, and it's really important just to progress where you can so What job do you have? Now? You said you have a job. What do you   Maison Collawn ** 29:53 do? So I'm in produce. I have worked up from a lead position for clues. Month to a assistant produce, assistant leader at Kroger. Oh, I am part of the management at night time, so my responsibility is to work from 130 to 10 o'clock at night and make sure the department gets closed correctly for the next day, for the morning people to be able to do the next stage of operations every day that we're supposed to do.   Michael Hingson ** 30:30 This is at a particular store, or is it more general than that?   Maison Collawn ** 30:34 I'm at a particular store part of a bigger it's called the program company, so it's part of a chain of stores right across the nation, right I'm at a particular store, 505, 10, which is mine. I'm actually able to, you know, I have people under me for the night time. And as a assistant leader, is my responsibility to make sure everything gets done, Delegate if need be, and also now that doing me to do as well and anything that might come up, like price reductions or questions that they can't answer, I need to be able to answer, and occasionally getting a manager involved if I can't help them, since I'm technically the representative management in that department at that time. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 31:31 so at least you are. You're progressing, you you had a job, you've been promoted. What's next?   Maison Collawn ** 31:41 Well, typically will be next is as an opening at one point, if I wanted to be a produce man, I don't find the assistant manager, I can probably do produce manager, but I'll probably want a smaller store. For me, Kroger's too big to be a produce manager because of the size compared to through line that I had. Through line was a lot smaller stores. It was more manageable. So if I was to be a manager, I probably want to choose a smaller store, but use my training that I have to be able to do that. Do   Michael Hingson ** 32:30 you find that when you're working at a larger store and for a larger company like Kroger, that also there's a lot more rigidity. Things are more rigid, and so there is not a lot of flexibility to maybe be creative or do things in a little bit different way than maybe the company would normally do it. Or is that even an issue that should come out in the corporate world?   Maison Collawn ** 32:57 So typically in retail, corporate is going to have the TOS, the standard practice that is applicable to everything you should do. They have everything mapped out time. So this comes back to business logistics. So their business science has already dictated how much time something should take and how much hours is allocated to do it. So anywhere you go there's not going to be, oh, more creatives. The only creative you could be is probably at a smaller local store level. So a local store probably more creative because they don't they're not dictated by the business science how to run your business efficient, right? With compared to food line, there is more flexibility on some things, because you are a smaller store, and sometimes you just don't have the space you might have to, you know, if pumpkins are on sale, you might have to keep them up longer to sell them down to the price, you know, it may extend the time. Then at Kroger, you might not be able to do that. They tell you to take it down. You have to take it down. And you just have to take the loss of profit, yeah. And seasonal change is pretty rigid over there, as soon as the season ends forever, Thanksgiving, Halloween, they'll change the next one, like almost two or three days before the actual holiday is,   Michael Hingson ** 34:28 well, the the other side of that, though, is seasonal kinds of things, you know that? I mean, you know seasonal, so you expect that when it ends, it ends. So a lot of things like that do happen, especially with seasonal kinds of products, so different kinds of vegetables, different kinds of fruits and so on, are only good at certain times a year, or other kinds of products that are only related by our society to Thanksgiving as opposed to Christmas. As opposed to Halloween. Yes. Well, so in addition to working at Kroger, which which definitely keeps you busy and helps pay the bills and keeps the lights on, we want you to be we want you light dependent people to have the lights on. It's okay. Tell me about your your podcast world. So along the way, you decided to get into podcasting, and I should tell people that you and I met through patapalooza. I've talked about patapalooza a lot on some of our podcast episodes, and we got to meet Mason at the latest patapalooza, which was a lot of fun. And so, as he mentioned, I have now, I've been on his podcast, and we talked a lot about assistive technology and so on. And now we get to to have Mason on ours, and get a lot of insights, which is a lot of fun. But tell me about you in podcasting. Why did you get involved in it? What do you think it brings to you in your life, and what do you bring to the rest of the world?   Maison Collawn ** 36:04 Well, podcasting is definitely unique, because, through my passion for TV, I was introduced to yearbook in eighth grade. Alright, so eighth grade, I want to do yearbook. Cool. I go to high school, and the intro to medications is yearbook, newspaper, TV production. Well, instead of choosing yearbook because there's too much graphic design spread and all that stuff, I went with TV production. So I took four years of TV production, and in doing that, I learned how to do studio set design, all that stuff. And I went to continue that after high school, but I didn't know how to format it correctly. So instead of podcasts, because the podcast is not first, my blog MC ani blog MC anime was first. I want to write about Anime Reviews. I want to write about my favorite shows. I went to Facebook to do it, and then I was like, Wait a second, my Facebook audience that I have is not they don't know this content. So I made a Facebook page blog and see anime. So that's kind of how my original Facebook got started was through different mediums to blog, and then that became podcaster after that, because I didn't want to do the blog anymore, but I still want to do something on brand, which, as I was doing before, podcasting has given me the insight to be able to talk. I've been behind the camera so much as it doesn't bother me. I have a personality that I want to share. I have a story that's compelling. And through be able to speak. It's like I'm overcoming a part of myself that tell people that I tell I shouldn't speak, that you won't be able to speak, you'll be not understanding other people because you don't connect them because you're socially inclined. And that's not true at all.   Michael Hingson ** 38:17 So how do you see the world of podcasting evolving over time.   Maison Collawn ** 38:24 The world of podcasting is good. It's already grown tremendously. There's probably going to be so much competitive market that only the top 5% will be would be able to make a living. But I see podcasting moving on towards a supplemental income unless you are able to go to your audience do a plug in business that is tied to your podcast. So solely doing podcast is not going to make pay the bills. Now, tying something in to your pockets, like getting discovery calls, like giving them services, selling product, affiliate marketing that's going to be able to convert that audience to revenue. So that's where podcast is going now in the world of everyone keeps launching a podcast. I guess it's just going to be a slice of the pod and the demographic is going to give to certain podcasts. True Crime is really good. Talk Shows are really good. But you have to identify which podcast is going to be you standing for, because you don't want to be a generic podcast if you don't have a good follow. The other   Michael Hingson ** 39:44 thing that I find interesting, we started unstoppable mindset back in 2021 but by beginning, roughly speaking, of 2023 although we had put two. We we had put video into every podcast, but the the folks that we were working with who are involved with patapalooza, Michelle Abraham and the amplify you group, suggested that we should also put the podcast up on YouTube, and as a result, make sure that it's a video podcast as well, because there's a growing audience that like to see the podcast. Now, I know that originally Steve Jobs and the whole idea behind the podcast was to have something that you could play anywhere. So if you're running or walking or out on demand, yeah, whatever you could listen. But do you think that there's a significant growing audience that need to have the video as well?   Maison Collawn ** 40:48 Yes, it's kind of the reason why I realized that YouTube is a good medium. Because everybody was asking me, do you have a YouTube channel? Like, okay, no, I don't, sorry, but I start backtracking all my old content. Wish I started videos so much sooner. There's so much easier to post. But instead, I backlog Season One, two and three as audio grams. I'm converting it to audio to video, but I'm using a visual component to make it video, to make it more stand out that is,   Michael Hingson ** 41:27 well, the the whole idea of having a video podcast, or having video for your podcast, is a little bit new, but it is, but it is certainly something that I think people have become accustomed to having around. So I'm not surprised at it. Radio became television. We we like to watch things, and so the result of all that is is that we need to make sure that we we cater to the audience, whatever audience it is that we are we're working toward. So having the ability to have a video podcast is is pretty important. And the other idea about having a video component to podcasting is that it's easy to do video. You can fairly inexpensively have a camera, a decent camera, you can have it be part of your repertoire of technology. But you also can have the the whole aspect of making sure that everybody can interact with the podcast in their own way. So it's just kind of fun. So having the ability to have video, I think is, is probably a pretty important thing. And I get actually probably more comments from people who have interacted with us on the YouTube channel than anything else, even though the the size of the audience is significantly less, but they're vocal.   Maison Collawn ** 43:22 Yeah, I found out my size of my audience is three different graphics. I have the podcast downloads, which is really good, but I also have the YouTube as a video component. And I'm also using video on my Facebook as well, but then I also have the short length content. So I am using short link content to promote it, and actually people are liking it. I'm getting a lot of hits. However, that's good, but short link content only promotes short link content, so you still got to promote the long form content. So it kind of becomes as well. I'm using the short link content to potentially get more people so they get introduced, they might be able to be interested in the small percentage converted. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 44:11 so the short link content is probably what most people would understand the terminology more with sound bites. It's not large, and it isn't the way to present the majority of the content, but it certainly is a way, if you do it right, to get people interested enough to then focus on what you're doing and go from there, yeah,   Maison Collawn ** 44:37 but I'm having lots of fun doing it. It's interesting how I'm doing my schedule now for uploads, I'm doing like three to four short link videos plus the episode upload. So that is drastically increase my social media uploading content. It's given a diverse. How actually, that's why I like about it. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 45:03 and do you think you're getting a lot of conversion from the short links to people listening to the whole podcast?   Maison Collawn ** 45:12 I'm definitely getting interested in different spikes of the episode, though, it's not as withstanding typically, to have a lot of good voting from short length content. You had it, let's go about the YouTube algorithm. You need 3 million subscribers on a short link content channel, 3 million views in all videos to be able to get monetized. That's a lot comparing that you only need a minimum of 1000 on a regular YouTube channel. So there's a different demographic. Percentage of you need a bunch more people to convert it. So it only helps to promote you, unless you're getting to like lots of followers on it. If you're not getting as many followers, it's just going to be like a good social media blast, that type of thing, right? So it's hard to convert, not super successful because I'm getting 1000 hits, okay, 1000 views, that's great, but that's not nearly enough to convert to the podcast, and it's a lot of people, but I need a lot more people to view it. Why do you think typically need five to 10,000 to be able to convert a larger base.   Michael Hingson ** 46:44 Why do you think that more of those people aren't transferring over and observing the longer podcast,   Maison Collawn ** 46:50 because their attention spans guided to the short lathe content so it the shortly content is good, gave you greater access to people, but you need a greater number of people watching you to can have a higher voting percentage.   Michael Hingson ** 47:10 Yeah, and the short links aren't going to give you real substance. What is,   Maison Collawn ** 47:17 what is obviously seen. So unless   Michael Hingson ** 47:20 you just can come up with something so creative that it draws people to the larger podcast. But that's just not what happens.   Maison Collawn ** 47:29 Yeah, that's why you have these social media influences. They're able to dictate an audience base on social media in a way that for all these people to these accounts, right? That's good for them, but they're not podcasters. It can be not everyone is,   Michael Hingson ** 47:49 yeah, mostly they're not. They. They do other things   47:55 well. So tell us is good in that way?   Michael Hingson ** 47:57 I'm sorry. Go ahead. Say again.   Maison Collawn ** 47:59 No, just podcasting is YouTube, is the long form content that was created at all. So yeah, that's kind of what a podcast can do   Michael Hingson ** 48:09 well. So tell us more about your podcast then, and what, what typically you do on it, the kinds of of people who you've had on and also, how can people find it and go investigate it?   Maison Collawn ** 48:27 So I've had a range of public professional speakers to feature speakers who are my friends, who like experts in that episode. So I like to incorporate people who are experts in the the thing we'll talk about, alright, that's kind of my philosophy. It's my job to highlight you, to speak in a way, speak on the subject. We speak it together, and you also present your perception of what it is. And to find me on the podcast, you can go to HTTPS dot slash, slash, at Facebook blog and see anime. You can also find me spell that. Spell that, if you would what Facebook website or just social media handle,   Michael Hingson ** 49:19 whichever you'd like, so that people can get to the podcast. So   Maison Collawn ** 49:23 an easy way to search it is that at sign capital, B, l, o, G, capital M, capital C, capital A, n, i, m, e, that is at blog MC anime, and that's an easy way to source me on Facebook and other navigations to it's my landing page for the link tree. You can get my social media and that type of stuff. And we   Michael Hingson ** 49:53 will also make sure that things are in the show notes, so that people can get it that way as well.   Maison Collawn ** 49:58 And of. At Facebook, com, slash blog, and see anime,   Michael Hingson ** 50:03 right? Cool. Well, this has been fun, and I guess I would ask if you have kind of any final thoughts or anything that you want people to to know, and if there are other things that they should be aware of about you, or any other kinds of ways they should be able to reach out to you. Why don't you give us any of that that you'd like?   Maison Collawn ** 50:26 Well, as I'm learning now, there is no barrier through different aspects of different lives. You have the power to be able to do something now, if it's not what you want, and you are in a limited option, say, a disability, or you're not as good, whatever, that's not going to stop you. You just have to keep trying until you figure something out that's be able to be successful for you and those resources out there to be able to do that, you just need to be able to connect to them, find someone who can help you if you're not able to navigate it, and just really have a strong ally and support base to move forward in what you're trying to do, or maybe the lack of and you're trying to get better,   Michael Hingson ** 51:23 but I would say each of us knows, or should know ourselves better than anyone else, so you know what you can do, and you can learn for yourself how much more you can do if you really work at it. So it is up to each of us to take a stand and work to move forward. Don't you think? Yes,   Maison Collawn ** 51:44 if you don't know what you need, then who would know for you? Yeah, powerful advocate that anyone can have.   Michael Hingson ** 51:57 There you go. Well, I want to thank you for being with us today. This has been a lot of fun. I think it's been very insightful, and I certainly appreciate your time, and I hope that everyone who has been with us appreciates all the insights and things that you bring to us. It's been a lot of fun talking about television and where it might go, and just media in general, and where people are, are going to be going to look for things in the future. It is. We're in a in an evolving world by any standard. So it's, it's fun to talk about that, and I appreciate your time to do that by any standard. I'm truth that any standard can happen. Well, we'd love to hear from all of you out there. If you've got any thoughts I'd love to hear from you, feel free to email me. Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, you're also welcome to go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael Hanks spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, and Mason, if people want to email you, do you have an email address, they can, can reach out to Yes.   Maison Collawn ** 53:14 So my corresponds to that blog, MC enemy. It's the same as before, B, L, G, m, c, a, n, i, m, e@gmail.com, and can you communicate about collaborations, interviews, insight, all the nine yards. Cool. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 53:37 I want to thank you for being here, and we appreciate it. If you listening out there, would give us a five star rating. Wherever you are watching or listening to this podcast, you have options to review. Please give us a five star rating. We value that greatly. And you, Mason and all of you listening out there, if you know of anyone who you think ought to be a good guest on our podcast, or if you'd like to come on unstoppable mindset, we want to hear from you. We love introductions. We love hearing from people. So please don't hesitate to let us know if you've got any thoughts for guests. We are always looking for people who want to come on and tell their stories and help us show the world that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. And with that, I want to thank you once again, Mason for being here with us today and and taking the time. Thanks very much for being here. You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Regular listeners to Unstoppable Mindset have heard me talk about a program called Podapalooza. This event takes place four times a year and is attended by podcasters, people who want to be podcasters and people who want to be interviewed by podcasters. Featured podcasters such as I get to talk with a number of people who sign up to be interviewed by us specifically.   This past Podapalooza saw me get to meet our guest this time, Susan Janzen. Susan wasn't even on of my original matches at Podapalooza, but she and I met and she told me she wanted both to be on Unstoppable Mindset and for me to come on her podcast, “Living & Loving Each Day”. Well, part one has happened. Susan has come on Unstoppable Mindset, and what a remarkable and unstoppable person she is.   Throughout her life she has been a professional singer and recording artist, a special education teacher, a realtor, now a life coach and she, along with her husband Henry, Susan has authored two books.   Make no mistake, Susan has performed all these life experiences well. She has been a singer for more than 30 years and still rehearses with a big band. She was a substitute special education teacher for six years and then decided to switch from teaching to selling real estate to help bring accessible housing to Alberta Canada.   Susan, as you will discover, is quite an inspiration by any standard. I look forward to receiving your comments and observations after you hear this episode. I am sure you will agree that Susan is quite Unstoppable and she will help you see that you too are more unstoppable than you think.       About the Guest:   Susan is an inspiring professional whose achievements span multiple fields. As a professional singer and recording artist, she enchanted audiences across North America. Her legacy as Edmonton's first Klondike Kate includes captivating performances from Las Vegas to the Alberta Pavilion during Expo 1987. Her versatility shines through her educational pursuits, earning a Bachelor of Education and influencing lives as a Special Education teacher. Alongside her husband, Dr. Henry Janzen, Susan co-authored two Amazon Best Sellers, further cementing her creative impact. Empowering Lives Through Coaching and Music Today, Susan combines her passions: Performs with the Trocadero Orchestra, a 17-piece Big Band. Empowers others as a Certified Happy for No Reason Trainer and Jay Shetty Life Coach. Hosts her podcast, Living & Loving Each Day Bridging Barriers sharing powerful stories of overcoming challenges.   Ways to connect Susan:   https://www.facebook.com/home.php https://www.youtube.com/@SusanJanzen www.linkedin.com/in/susan-janzen-b-ed-5940988 https://www.instagram.com/livingnlovingbridgingbarriers/   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone. I am your host, Mike hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset podcast, unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, and that's always so much fun. So we do some, we do sometimes talk about inclusion, and we do talk about diversity, and we talk about inclusion first, because diversity usually leaves out disabilities, but in this case, we we like inclusion because we won't let anyone leave out disabilities if they're going to talk about being inclusive. So there you go. But anyway, even more important than that is the unexpected, which is anything that doesn't have anything to do with diversity or inclusion, our guest today kind of has a little bit to do with all of that stuff. Susan Janzen is our guest. I'm assuming I'm pronouncing that right, perfectly, right? Yes, perfect. And Susan is up in Edmonton, Canada, and I met Susan a couple of weeks ago because both of us participated in the patapalooza program. Patapalooza, for those of you who may be listening to this on a regular basis, patapalooza is a program that happens four times a year where people come on who want to be podcasters, who are podcasters, or who want to be interviewed by podcasters. And we all kind of get together and we talk, and we listen to some lectures, and a bunch of us go off into breakout rooms and we get to chat with people. And when I was being scheduled, Susan was not one of the people who, in fact, got scheduled with me, but she came into the room and she said, I want to talk to you. And so there we are. And so Susan, welcome to unstoppable mindset where we can talk.   Susan Janzen ** 03:12 Well, so glad and so glad to be in a room with you here on my screen. This is great. Oh, it's fun.   Michael Hingson ** 03:18 My door is closed so my cat won't come in and bug me, because every so often she comes in and and what she wants is me to go pet her while she eats, but I'm not going to let her do that while the podcast is going on. So there you go. But anyway, it's good to be here, and I'm glad that you're here with us, and I understand that it's kind of nice and crisp and chilly where you are right now. No surprise, we are much more weak,   Susan Janzen ** 03:45 yeah, much warmer. There we had in Alberta. We're always in Edmonton, Alberta. We're called the sunny province because it's doesn't matter how cold it gets. We always have blue cumulus clouds and beautiful blue sky   Michael Hingson ** 04:00 and so. And today you have and today it's my cold.   Susan Janzen ** 04:04 It's, well, it's minus 10 with a skiff of snow. But you know what? Minus 10 here is? Actually, that's kind of my prerequisite for skiing, like, if it's minus 10 or warmer, I'm good, because I'm not a very good added skier. That's why   Michael Hingson ** 04:20 my brother in law used to ski on a regular basis. He in fact, used to take trips and take tours and and allow people to hire him as their tour guide to go over to France to do off peace school in the else. And he is also a cabinet maker and general contractor, and Gary's philosophy always is everything stops in the winter when there is an opportunity to ski. So   Susan Janzen ** 04:50 that would be a beautiful wouldn't that be there? Like the perfect job to probably be a golf pro in the summer in a ski tour? Third guide in the winter. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 05:01 he he was a, he was a contractor in the summer. Now he's doing more contracting all year round. He still skis, but he's not a certified mountain ski guide in France anymore. I think, I assume that kind of runs out after a while, but he hasn't really taken people on trips there for a while. But anyway, we're really glad you're here. I would love to start by maybe you telling us a little bit about the early Susan, growing up and all that well,   05:27 with the early Susan, that sounds great. Sure,   Susan Janzen ** 05:28 let's do   05:30 it that was a long,   Michael Hingson ** 05:32 long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. But let's do it anyway, exactly,   Susan Janzen ** 05:36 exactly. So way back in the day I was, I was actually my history is, is from I had a mother who was a singer, and she and I, I'm also professional singer, but she, she was my influence when I was younger, but when I was born, it was out those terminology at that time was called out of wedlock. Oh my gosh, you know, so bad. And so she was a single mom, and raised me as a very determined and and stubborn girl, and we had our traumas, like we went through a lot of things together, but we survived, and we're and we're, you know, all the things that I went through, I was on in foster care for a little while, and I kind of did a whole bunch of different things as a kid, and went on my own When I was 15. So I left home when I was 15, so I figured I'd be on my own. I figured I was mature enough to just go on my own, right like that made was made total sense and perfect sense to me at the time, and now I realize how young 15 is, but but finished high school and went to on the road and was a singer for like, over 25 years. That's better that. And, yeah. And so that's what I that was kind of like the childhood part of me. And that's, I think, what's putting me into all these play. I was in a convent for a while with   Michael Hingson ** 06:54 honey, and so you, you went off and you sang, you said, for 25 years, yes,   Susan Janzen ** 07:01 and I'm still singing. I'm still singing. That was Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 07:06 And I was reading that you sing with a seven piece, 17 piece, Big Band orchestra. I do.   Susan Janzen ** 07:12 It's called a Trocadero orchestra. It's so it's the whole horn section, the the rhythm section. It's so much fun, I can't tell you, so I we do that. We don't gig a lot because a lot of people don't want to put out the money for an ATP spend. But we do rehearse a lot, and we do the big, big events in the city. It's really fun. What kind of music? So big bands, so 40s, yes, and so all the Oh, exactly. We can do the Latin stuff I sing that's in mucho the same mucho is one of my songs. And I do, you know, there's so many, like, so many really good songs, but they're older songs that kind of the Frank Sinatra kind of era songs, all the big band stuff. I've   Michael Hingson ** 07:56 always thought that Bing Crosby was a better singer than Frank Sinatra. That's gonna probably cause some controversy. But why that?   Susan Janzen ** 08:04 I wonder. But you know what big, big Crosby was a little bit before, and then Frank Sinatra was called the crooner, and I think it was because of his blue eyes and how he looked. I think he took on a different persona. I think that's why I think it was more the singer than more the singer than the music. Maybe you think, I don't know. I   Michael Hingson ** 08:25 haven't figured that out, because Bing Crosby was, was definitely in the 40s. Especially, was a more well known, and I think loved singer than Frank. But by the same token, Frank Sinatra outlive Bing Crosby. So, you know, who knows, but I like being Crosby, and I like his music, and I like some Frank Sinatra music as well. I mean, I'm not against Frank Sinatra, yeah. I think, personally, the best male singer of all time. Yes, still, Nat King Cole   Susan Janzen ** 09:00 Oh, and I do? I do the dot I do orange colored sky neck and Cole's daughter, yeah, this one on my brain. Her name Natalie Cole, exactly. Yeah. But Nat King Cole was a really good singer, so I do agree with you in that. And we do some that can cool stuff. I do a lot of Ella Fitzgerald too, as well.   Michael Hingson ** 09:24 Yeah. Well, I, I've always liked and just felt Nat King Cole was the best of now, female singers, probably, again, a lot of people would disagree, but I really think that Barbara Streisand is, oh, there is.   Susan Janzen ** 09:37 I love her. Yeah, yeah, I did. I actually, I did an album. In the 719, 78 I recorded an album, and the main song on there was evergreen by Barbra Streisand. I   Michael Hingson ** 09:48 love that tune. Yeah, I was. I just have always liked Barbara Streisand. One of my favorite albums is Barbara Streisand at the forum. She James Taylor. And I forget who the third person was. Did a fundraiser for George McGovern in 1972 and I just always thought that that was Barbara's Best Album.   Susan Janzen ** 10:10 Ah, so such a voice. I mean, she could see anything. Yeah. Beautiful voice, yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, we're on the same page, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 10:19 Well, that's pretty cool. But so you, you grew up, you sang and and then what happened to you, or what did you do? What, what else occurred in your life that we should know about?   Susan Janzen ** 10:31 Oh, there's so many things. So then I, yeah, I know it's crazy. So I grew up, I think I still, I'm not quite there yet. I'm still growing. And then I when at 18, I got married, and I went on the road with a guitar player, and for 10 years, and then we had two kids. And then after five more years on the road, I actually got a divorce. And so I was six years as a single mom with two babies. The kids were, like, 11 months apart. They were really close. And so then that's when I did all my bigger gigs here in Edmonton, though, those are the like. I was hired as the first ever local Klondike Kate in Edmonton, Alberta. We have Klondike. We used to have Klondike games as our major summer fair, and it was a really big deal. It's kind of like the Calgary Stampede we had the Edmonton on Lake Bay, and so I was the representative of the city of Edmonton for two years. And I actually did it my first year. They made me audition for my second year. So I won it the second year. So I was the first ever two years in a row. And I represented the city all over North America. Actually, I sang, I met Muhammad Ali, I met some really great people, and I sang with Baba patola, did some commercials with him, went down to Vegas and played one of his stages. So I did a lot of really fun things in those two years, and convert a lot of commercials and a lot of telethons. So that was really fun. And then, and then, when that was over, that's when I got remarried to a wonderful man, and he was at University of Alberta, and he was a professor in psychology, education, psychology and so and I'm happy to say that we're just celebrated last week our 36th wedding anniversary. That's how old I am. Michael, congratulations.   Michael Hingson ** 12:18 Well, my wife, my wife and I were married for 40 years, and she passed in November of 2022, so, oh, so I I know what it's like to be married for a long time. I loved it. Love it. Still wonderful memories. It's unfortunate that all too many people don't ever get to have the joy of being married for such a long time. Yes,   Susan Janzen ** 12:43 and happily married, right? Like happily married? Yeah, that's the cavid.   Michael Hingson ** 12:50 Yeah. It's important to to acknowledge the happiness part of it. And I've got 40 years of memories that will never go away, which is great.   Susan Janzen ** 12:58 Nobody can take that away from you, that is for sure. They can't take that away from me. Don't take that away from me. That's   Michael Hingson ** 13:06 right, exactly. So that's that's pretty cool. So you do a lot of rehearsing and a lot of singing. What else do you do in the world today? So also   Susan Janzen ** 13:15 in the world today, I am, and I have been since 2003 I'm a residential real estate expert, so I'm a realtor, and I deal specifically with accessible and barrier free homes. So that's kind of my I was a special ed teacher. Actually, I should squeeze that in there for six years I was, I got my degree in education and with a special ed teacher in secondary ed. So all my kids were junior and senior high. And then when I came out of that, I took up the after I was teaching. I took real estate license, and I got it and I I just felt like I understood anybody with mobility challenges and with any other challenges. And so I took that extra time that is needed and necessary to to help them find homes and to sell.   Susan Janzen ** 14:02 What got you started down that road   Susan Janzen ** 14:05 at the time, I was teaching for six years, and when in Edmonton, I don't know why it was just here. So I was 2003 when I quit. So I had been teaching from the late 1990s and it was like I was subbing, but I was not getting a full time position in that and my Evanston public school board said your your file is glowing. We just don't have any spots for you. So I think it was a government funding issue. And so I ended up just thinking, I don't want to sub forever. I want to get my own classroom, and I want to have my own and I would, I would teach for six months at a time in a school. So it wasn't like I was jumping around crazy but, but I want, really wanted my own classroom. And so when that wasn't happening after six years, I thought I'm going to write the real estate license exam, and if I pass it the first time, that was my Gage, because no, they say the word was that you don't pass it the first time. Everyone has to write it to a. Three times before they pass my rule. For my own ruler for me was to say, if I take the exam, pass it the first time, I will make that move. And that's what happened so and then I just took up with accessible, barrier free homes and that specialty. So   Michael Hingson ** 15:17 was there any specific motivation that caused you to really deal with accessibility and accessible homes and so on.   Susan Janzen ** 15:25 Yes, and at the time, and just actually, my mom had been in a walker and on oxygen. I had quite a few friends who had mobility issues. And then just shortly after that, when I was a realtor already, and my daughter had a baby, and her baby at eight weeks old had a near SIDS incident. So she was eight weeks old, and Candace went to do the dishes one night at nine o'clock at night, and came back and calea is her daughter's name, and she was like blue in the crib. She was she had to be revived. So that was terrifying for all of us, and so it was wonderful news that she did survive, but she had occipital and parietal damage, so she has cortical vision impairment and also cerebral palsy, but she's she's thriving and loving it, and so that actually kind of Got me even doing more accessible homes, because now I'm a grand ambassador, and what's that called when you get out on the street and yell at people for parking in handicap stalls? What is that smart person? A smart person, and I was just passionate about that. I wanted to fix things and to try to make things easier for people as they should be, without having to ask in the first place. So yeah, so that's kind of the other reason I stuck to the that that area in real estate, and I just had the patience for it. I had the knowledge and the understanding and I and I really it was just easy for me because I did. I think it was because the passion I had for that area, and I just love doing it and helping other people   Michael Hingson ** 17:05 well. So how old is your granddaughter now? Now she is 12. Okay, she's 12. Now, does she walk, or does she use a wheelchair?   Susan Janzen ** 17:13 She uses, um, well, because she is as tall as me now, oh, she's using more a wheelchair more often, okay? She She walks with a walker. She can't walk on her own at all, and I think it's because of the vision, right? She if she could, you know, yeah, if she could see, she sees light. It's amazing how that how the brain works. She sees lights, and she sees color. And I can put up any color to her, and she'll identify it right every time, every time, but she doesn't see me. She doesn't see my face. Well, tell   Michael Hingson ** 17:45 me a little bit more about cortical vision. You. You and I talked about that a little bit. So Lacher, yeah, explain that to people. It's   Susan Janzen ** 17:52 really interesting because it's something that it's not readily out there, like you don't hear about it a lot. And even as a special ed teacher, I can tell you that I was trained in all of the different areas of special needs, but that did not come up for me, so this was new when I found out about it, and it just means that her eyes are fine. There's nothing wrong with her eyes, but her she's not processing so the information is coming through her eyes, but she's not processing that information. But she, like I said, if I turn out the light, she'll go, oh, the lights are off. Or if I put the lights on, she'll look up and be surprised at it. She you can tell that she knows. And then I used to put her on my counter in the kitchen, and I had these LED lights underneath my counter, my kitchen counter, and it had all these, these 12 different colors of light, and so I would put the blue on, I'd say, calea, what color is that? And she'd go blue, and I'd say, What color is that, and she'd go red. So it would be variable colors that I'd offer up to her, and she wouldn't get them right every single time. So that's the cortical vision impairment, and where they if she needs to pick up something off of a dresser, off the floor, for instance, it has to be on like a black background, and then she can see it, no problem. But if you have a whole bunch of things on the ground or on the table and ask her to pick up something, that's too much information for her, so she can't just zero in on that one area, right? So it's harder for her. So you just have to make things more accessible, so that she can see things you know, in her way.   Michael Hingson ** 19:25 But this is a different thing than, say, dyslexia, which is also you can see with your eyes, but your brain is in processing the characters and allowing you to necessarily truly read it exactly. And   Susan Janzen ** 19:38 that's that different part of the brain, where it's analyzing the the at least you can you can see it, but you process it differently. That's exactly right where she can't see. So then that's why I was thinking, if she could see better, I think she would be walking, maybe with a cane or with a walker, better. But right now, in that. Stage, we can point her in the right direction and tell her to go, and she'll go, but she's not sure where she is.   Michael Hingson ** 20:08 But that clearly wasn't the start of you doing real estate sales, dealing with accessible homes, but it must have certainly been a powerful motivator to continue with exactly   Susan Janzen ** 20:20 that, exactly that, because my mom was on oxygen, and she had, she had a lot of issues, mobility challenges. And I had a lot of friends who who were also like in that older age group that had mobility challenges. And those are the people that that were, may say, moving from a two story to a bungalow because they couldn't make manage the stairs anymore.   Michael Hingson ** 20:41 So how do we get people like the Property Brothers? Do you ever watch them and you know who they are? Oh yes, oh yes. We get them to do more to deal with building accessibility into the homes that they built. Because the the issue is that we have an aging population in our world. And it just seems like it would be so smart if they built accessibility and rights from the outset in everything that they do, because the odds are somebody's going to need it   Susan Janzen ** 21:11 exactly. And that's the for the forward thinking, right? You know? And it's interesting that some people, some builders, have told me that just to make a door frame three inches wider does not cost you any more money. But the point, the point is just that it's getting all the contractors on board to to come out of the way that they've been doing it for so long. You know, sadly,   Michael Hingson ** 21:38 yeah, my wife was in a chair her whole life, she was a teacher, paraplegic. Oh, so you know, I know about all this really well. And in fact, when we built this house, we we built it because we knew that to buy a home and then modify it would cost a bunch of money, one to $200,000 and in reality, when we built this house, there was no additional cost to make it accessible, because, as you point out, making doors wider, lowering counters, having ramps instead of stairs, all are things that don't cost more If you design it in right from the outset, exactly,   Susan Janzen ** 22:24 exactly, and that's that's the problem. Yeah, that's the problem. I mean, that's exactly the problem.   Michael Hingson ** 22:29 Yeah. Now we built our home in New Jersey when we moved back there, and we did have a little bit of an incremental extra cost, because all the homes in the development where we found property were two story homes, so we did have to put in an elevator, so it's about another $15,000 but beyond that, there were no additional costs, and I was amazed that appraisers wouldn't consider the elevator to be an advantage and an extra thing that made The home more valuable. But when we did sell our home in New Jersey, in fact, the elevator was a big deal because the people who bought it were short. I mean, like 5253, husband and wife, and I think it was her mother lived with them, and we put the laundry room up on the second floor where the bedrooms were, and so the elevator and all that were just really wonderful things for everyone, which worked out really well.   Susan Janzen ** 23:30 Oh, that's perfect. And that's, that's kind of what I do here in evident that I try to match the people who are selling homes that have been retrofitted and made more, you know, accessible. I try to put out the word that this is available, and I try to get the people in who need that. I feel like a matchmaker, a house matchmaker, when it comes to that, because you don't want to waste that like some people, actually, they'll some people who don't understand the situation have chairless For instance, they they're selling their house, and they rip out the chair. Then it's like, well, call me first, because I want to find you somebody who needs that, and that's exactly what they're looking for. Okay, so that's kind of where, how I I operate on my my job   Michael Hingson ** 24:15 well, and I will tell you from personal experience, after September 11 for the first week, having walked down 1400 63 stairs and was stiff as a board for a week, I used the elevator more than Karen did. Oh,   Susan Janzen ** 24:28 at that, but you survived that. And that was, that's amazing, but it   Michael Hingson ** 24:35 was, yeah, you know, you have to do what you gotta do. I think that there's been a lot more awareness, and I I've been back to the World Trade Center since, but I didn't really ask, and I should have, I know that they have done other things to make it possible to evacuate people in chairs, because there were a couple of people, like, there was a quadriplegic. Um. Who I believe is a distant cousin, although I never knew him, but he wasn't able to get out, and somebody stayed with him, and they both perished. But I think that they have done more in buildings like the World Trade Center to address the issue of getting people out.   Susan Janzen ** 25:17 It's just too bad that we have to wait for that, things, terrible things like that to happen to crazy awareness. That's the only bad thing. What? It's not like, it's not like we're not yelling on the streets. It's not like we're not saying things. It's just that people aren't listening. And I think it depends on if you're to a point where you are actually in a wheelchair yourself, or you have a child who's in a wheelchair now, now they understand, well,   Michael Hingson ** 25:43 yes, it is getting better. There's still a lot of issues. Organizations like Uber still really won't force enforce as they should. All the rules and regulations that mandate that service dogs ought to be able to go with Uber passengers who have a need to have a service dog, and so there, there's still a lot of educational issues that that have to occur, and over time will but I think that part of the issue was that when 2001 occurred, it was the right time that then people started to think about, oh, we've gotta really deal with this issue. It is an educational issue more than anything else. That's true. That's   Susan Janzen ** 26:26 true. There's a fellow here in Edmonton that, and I'm sure it's elsewhere too, but one particular fellow that I know, and he builds, they're called Garden suites. Like in Edmonton, we're kind of getting so much the population here is standing so quickly that the city is allowing zoning for they're called Garden suites, so they're just but he goes in and puts in like a two story behind the home, and it's 100% accessible, barrier free, and no basement. And so we're encouraging people to buy those homes, and they don't cost as much because they're quite a bit smaller. They're only two bedroom but they have everything that anybody would need if they had mobility challenges. And so it's it's perfect for either people who have a son or a daughter who is getting close to being an adult and they want their more a little more freedom and independence. They could use that suite at the back. Or I know some adults in particular who are have mobility challenges, and they just physically move to that new place in the backyard and rent out their home right to make home revenue.   Michael Hingson ** 27:31 Since it's two stories, what do they do to make it accessible? They   Susan Janzen ** 27:34 have, they have an elevator. It's a zero entry, and it's 100% everything in it is specifically so you move in, walk, go right in, and it's, it's accessible. That's how he does it, right from scratch. Cool, super cool. And so we're trying to, I'm trying to promote that here, out here, because I, I know the fellow who builds them, and it makes sense. I mean, even if you want to have a revenue property, right? And you want to build that in your backyard and then rent it out to somebody who needs that, then that'd be perfect.   Michael Hingson ** 28:06 It makes, makes a lot of sense to do that. It does. Mm, hmm. Well, do you think that all of the knowledge that you gained in special education and so on has helped you a great deal in this new, more, newer career of doing real estate sales.   Susan Janzen ** 28:25 Oh, 100% because it's just an understanding. It's just having the compassion and understanding what not, because I haven't experienced it myself, but I do understand what they may be going through. It's just an enlightening for me, and I I just appreciate what they're going through, and I am, you know, I want to make it easier for them, you know, to make any decisions that they have to make. And I try. I don't like, I don't waste their time like, I make sure I go preview the homes first, make sure that it's something and I FaceTime them first to say, is this something you want to even come out to? So I don't want them to be wasting their time or their energy just trying to get to a place that's not accessible,   Michael Hingson ** 29:05 right? Mm, hmm. We moved from New Jersey to Novato California, which is in the North Bay, which is now being just bombarded by rain, but Northern California in 2002 and when we started looking for homes, we tried to find a place where we could build, but there was just no place up there where there was land to build a home. So we knew we had to buy a home and modify it. And one day, we went with a realtor, and he took us to a house, and it was clearly a house that wasn't going to work. The this there were, there was no room to put in a ramp, there were lots of steps, and we pointed out all the reasons that it wouldn't work. And then he took us to another home that was really like the first one. We went to four different homes and. We kept saying, this won't work, and here's why, and it was like a broken record, because it was all the same. I'm so sorry. Yeah, you know, I realized that not everyone has the opportunity to really understand and learn about wheelchair access and so on. But people should focus more on on doing it. It wasn't like I needed a lot for the house to be usable by me as a blind person, but, but Karen certainly did. And what we eventually found another realtor took us to a place, and what was really interesting is we described what we wanted before we started looking at homes with Mary Kay, and she said, I have the perfect home. You'll have to modify it, but I have the perfect home. And of course, after our experiences with the other realtors, we were a little bit pessimistic about it, but she took us to a home, and there was a step up into it, but that's easy to modify. Then you go through an entryway, and then you can go left into the kitchen or right, and if you went right, you ended up in a little Nexus where there were three bedrooms, oh, and it wasn't even a hallway. There were just three bedrooms. And so it was, it was perfect. We still had to make significant modifications, but it really was a home that was modifiable by any standard, and we, we bought it. It was perfect   Susan Janzen ** 31:44 for what we needed. I'm so glad I love that's a good start. That's a good story here. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 31:50 she, she got it and and it's so important. And I think Realtors need to be aware of the fact that we deal with a very diverse population, and it's important to really understand all of the various kinds of people that you might have to deal with, but we just don't always see that. Needless to say,   Susan Janzen ** 32:08 that's true. Unfortunately, that's so true. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 32:14 So do you how? How much time do you spend doing real estate? Is that a full time job for you.   Susan Janzen ** 32:20 Well, it always has been. I've been full time, full service, so I'm on call, really is kind of what it boils down to. But I've also pursued, in the last since COVID, I've pursued coaching courses because that's something I'd like to get into. And so now I'm a certified Jay Shetty resilience and confidence coach, and so I'm kind of leading, I think, as I age and as I, you know, getting tired of I've been a realtor 21 years now, so I would like to eventually slow down in that area and focus more on coaching people. That's kind of where I'm leaning now a little bit, but I'm still full time up there. And singer   Michael Hingson ** 33:02 and singer and your coach, yeah. So do you ever see your coaching customers? Just check, no no   Susan Janzen ** 33:10 checking. I send them the recording. I'll send them my CD. You can go and get you could get two of my CDs on iTunes, so I'll send them there, or else tell them one of my geeks.   Michael Hingson ** 33:20 Oh, cool. Well, I'll have to go look you up on iTunes. I have, yes, oh, it   Susan Janzen ** 33:25 is a Christmas there's a Christmas one there. I think you'd like that. Michael, is it really cool?   Michael Hingson ** 33:29 And I have Amazon unlimited music. I wonder if. I'll bet there too. You   Susan Janzen ** 33:33 just take in. Susan Jansen, and I come up. I have the greatest love of all is my one, and the other one's called the gift for you, and that's my Christmas split. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 33:41 cool, yeah. Well, we will. We will check them out, by all means. Well, so when do you rehearse? When do you when do you do singing?   Susan Janzen ** 33:52 Well, the big band rehearses every Saturday. So we, we all get together and we do. So it's, I just, you know, I love the rehearsals, like it's so much fun for me. So that's what we do with my other singing. I still get I still get hired, especially during the summer festival time, I get hired to come back and we call it throwback Klondike dates. And I have one costume of all my costumes that were made for me this you can imagine my costumes is called that Kate were like, a lot of sequins, full dresses with the big furry bottoms and then the feathery hats. So I used to wear those. So I still have one costume that still fits me, and so I use that every summer, and I go out, and I'm asked to do different functions during the summer, and then during all throughout the year, I do parties, you know, like, what if somebody hires me to do a birthday or some special celebration? I still do that. Okay, so   Michael Hingson ** 34:47 how often does the big band actually go out and perform and earn some money? Or does that happen much at all? Not that much because of   Susan Janzen ** 34:54 the size of us, right? Yeah. So, you know, we've done, you know, like the 100th anniversary of Arthur. Is a dance floor. And so we did their 100th anniversary celebration. And can you imagine, like the dance floor was just, it was like I was watching my own show from from the stage, because they we did all the Latin tunes, and they came out and danced the Sava and the rambas and the tangos and everything. It was beautiful. So I got to so that was a really fun gig for us, and then, and so we do other big and larger functions, like in ballroom. So you can imagine a conference, perhaps that's having a big celebration will be the ballroom entertainment. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 35:32 you know, you're in Canada. Can't you get Michael Buble to hire you guys? Ooh,   Susan Janzen ** 35:35 wouldn't that be nice? He's got his own man. He's   Michael Hingson ** 35:39 got, yeah, he does. I know these old charts and yeah, but he occasionally brings to the choir. I know that we, we went to see him well. Karen passed in November of 2022 we actually went to see him in Las Vegas in May of 2022 that was the last concert that we got to do together. And we ended up being relocated from up in the balcony in what Henry, what Harry Belafonte, would call the scholarship section. We We got moved down to the orchestra pit, and we were like in row 18, even two rows in front of Michael's family, but we ended up being there for the concert. It was wonderful. Oh, and he walked out and shook hands with everyone while he was singing, and all that was a lot of fun. But, yeah, he does have his own band, but music's great,   Susan Janzen ** 36:36 so good, and he does that so well. Like my favorite show is the voice. And so he's a judge on there too, and I really appreciate input. And he comes off very Canadian. I think he's this is very friendly and very silly and fun and and just really caring too. So I think he represents us well on the voice.   Michael Hingson ** 36:56 He does not take himself too seriously, which is so important, I think for so many people, so true. He does so well with that. So true. Well, so we mentioned pada Palooza, and you have a podcast. Well also, and you, you've written a book, right?   Susan Janzen ** 37:14 Yes. So I've co authored a few books, and then, plus my husband and I Well, my husband actually is a psychologist. He wrote the book, I typed it, and then he gave me credit, because I kept putting in my own stories and and he would, he was kind enough to put my name on the cover. So and we wrote a book called living and loving each day. And that's how, why I made my podcast that same name, and, and, but when we wrote it, the full title is living and loving each day success in a blended family. Because at that time when we got married, I had the two children, and they were just under you know, they were nine and 10 years old, eight and nine years old, and his boys, he had three boys that were older, like teenagers, and so and his wife passed away from cancer. So we all got together. And I mean blended families, that's a whole nother world, you know, if you're not used to that, that's something else. And, and then it turned out that his oldest son was diagnosed schizophrenic, so that was something that we dealt with together as a family. And, and, and then yeah we so we just felt like this was our life, and we wanted to share that. But that's like combining two separate families together, and how that works, and the dynamics of that. So he wrote some great, great stuff about how to deal with in laws, X laws and outlaws. He called them Yeah, and how to deal with every family celebration, Christmas and Easter, everything you know, like, there's so many things that come up even think about until you're in that situation, like, how do you do it? Right?   Michael Hingson ** 38:52 But it's so great that you two made the choice to do it and to blend the families and not give up on each other, or any of the people in the family, exactly,   Susan Janzen ** 39:04 and that's in that's huge for me. And I can share a little story with you. Feel like the view is okay. So this is kind of cool. So this so when I was singing, and I was just at the end of my second year as Klondike Kate, and I was doing a lot of gigs, like a lot of singing and and I was just kind of cut, you know how they like you're, you see on the calendar that they're you're tuning down here. The end of the year is coming. The end of the gigs are coming, and you're not in that role anymore because they chose a new Klondike. And so those six years that I was a single mom, my husband now had his own radio show, and it was called that's living and there was a show out of Edmonton, and it actually won Canadian awards for this was a talk show during the day for one and a half hours, and it had two psychologists, and the psychiatrists were the hosts. And so on the Tuesdays and Thursdays with Dr Jan, that was my husband and I used. To listen every day because I had, I was a single mom. I really didn't have a lot of support, and I worked every night singing so and I had my kids all day. So it was just like my favorite show to listen to. And when I remember listening to and I heard this Dr Johnson's voice, I always thought he had, like, long white hair, long white beard, so he was just so calm and so compassionate and so smart that he was just such a I never knew what he looked like, but that's what I pictured him looking like. And then it turned out that right at the end of my my singing, I remember listening one day, and he was on the air, and he I was going to my agents I was driving down Main Street in Edmonton, and I remember going to my agent's office to see what was next for me, like, what's next? What next gig do I have? And I remember he came on the air that day, and he said, You know what, folks, I have to let you know that his he said, My wife passed away. And he said, My boys and I've been grieving since the day we found out six months ago. But I need to be here to be of service to you, and I need to be on the air to help you today. And hope you don't mind. I hope you understand, you know he was, you know, and it was, it was so emotional, and like I was sitting in my van, like crying, thinking, because I'd been listening to him all those years, and I just felt so sad for him. And then I kind of, I'm a God fearing woman, and I said, Lord, why can't I meet a man like that that needs me as much as I need him. That was my outside prayer. And you know what? It wasn't even a week and a half later, I get a call from that station, CTC, saying, hey, Sue, can you do a Christmas Bureau fundraiser for us? He said, There's no pay involved, but you can be MC and and, you know, help us. You know, raise money for the Christmas funeral. And so I was happy to do that. And so that's how, how I met my husband was when at that particular function. So that was kind of my, you know, and like, just an answer to prayer and something that I really, you know, it was interesting how, how that all happens when you are very specific and, and so that's how we met. And, yeah, so we've been together ever since 36 years now. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 42:06 as I tell people, you know, Karen passed away two years ago, and I don't move on from Karen, but I move forward exactly because I think if I I've always interpreted Moving on is you go on and you forget, and I don't, and I don't want to forget, so I move forward Exactly. And besides that, I know that if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I gotta be a good kid, or she's going to get me one way or another. Yeah, that's right. And so, you know, as I, as I said to somebody yesterday, I don't even chase girls, so you know, it works out very well, but you know, the the the issue is that those 40 years of memories are always going to be there, and there's so much to learn from that. And again, it's all about choice. This is so important well, so tell us more about the podcast on how long have you been doing it? How did that start? And and so on,   Susan Janzen ** 43:03 right? So I was actually my daughter has this a nonprofit where she was she works with other parents who have children with adaptive needs, and so she asked if I would interview her parents just to find out about parents stories and you. I'm sure you understand where you want to just tell your story, what happened without having to explain. And, you know, I don't know, just give all the, you know, the background to everything. They just wanted to share this story and to be heard on with no judgment and with compassion. So I said, No, I can do that. I can interview them, and I want to hear their stories. And they need, I think they need to share them those stories too, for whatever happened, you know, with whatever incident happened with their children. So, so I said to my daughter, I sure I'll do a podcast for them, you know, and just interview them. And then I only did it through zoom and not knowing anything about how to do that, I've been MC for fundraisers, but I don't know how to do a podcast. So I did that the best I could, using Zoom. And then I when I was done it, I liked it so much, I thought, well, I better figure out how to do this, like the right way, right? So I actually did take a course. And there was a lady out of Toronto that was giving a course called cash in on camera. And so she talked about how to set up restream, how to set up air table, how to do your mic, your lighting, and all of the things that you need to consider. And so I took that course. And so then I interviewed a few more people and a few experts for her, for her. So that's kind of how I got started, with just focusing specifically on on my daughter's audience. So those parents.   Susan Janzen ** 44:40 And how long ago was that?   Susan Janzen ** 44:41 That was, what, two years ago now total, because I've been doing my podcast now for just over a year.   Susan Janzen ** 44:48 And do you how many episodes a week? Do you do one?   Susan Janzen ** 44:51 I do one, but I, you know what? I've got 140 that I've done. And I'm thinking, I've got quite. If you in the books, you know how that works. Where you report I'm you, Michael, give me advice on this. So I have three recorded that are waiting for me, but plus I have 14 others that are on my book to interview like I'm getting a lot of interest and people who want to be on my podcast, which is wonderful, but then I got, now gotta figure out how to do that, or how to actually, you know, organize it. How often should I be putting out podcasts? Like every three days now, like otherwise, we're going to be going into middle of 2025 I don't know.   Michael Hingson ** 45:33 I started for accessibe, doing unstoppable mindset in August of 2021 when I started using LinkedIn seriously to look for podcast guests in 2022 and I use sales navigators, so we profile authors or coaches or whatever, and we'll send out emails saying, I saw your profile. It looks like you'd be an interesting guest. Would you love to explore coming on unstoppable mindset, what we do is then we, when they're willing, we schedule a meeting and we we talk about it, and if they want to come on, which usually they do, then we actually schedule the time, and I ask them to send me some information, as you know, like a series of questions that they want to talk about, a bio, other things like that, but we got a pretty significant backlog. And I've learned that a lot of people with very successful podcasts do have backlogs. Oh, good. There's nothing wrong with that. Okay, good. It's better to have them. You can always add an extra podcast if you want to play more, but we do two a week now, and just today, we published episode 286, wow. Since August of 2021, and so it's a lot of fun. I enjoy it, and I get to meet so many people. And as I tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as anyone who listens to the podcast, I'm not doing my job well. I agree, quite invested in it. I think it's so important to be able to do that. So the bottom line is that we do get a lot of interesting people. I talked to someone just the other day who is very much involved in energy and healing and so on. Well, she also was a singer in Australia, had a very serious auto accident, and kind of went away from seeing for a while, and then she realized she started doing a lot of creating, of affirmations, but then she put the affirmations to music, and she points out that, you know, the lyrics are in the left side of the brain, but the music's in the right side, and they actually work together, and so by having them in a musical form, you you're more likely to really be able to internalize them. So she even sang one for us on the earth, a lot of fun, but, but the bottom line is that, you know, it's she also does her own podcast, which is kind of fun, but there is so much to learn from so many different people. I've had so much fun doing it, and I enjoy very much the opportunities to learn. Yeah,   Susan Janzen ** 48:29 no, I'm right there with you, and I think that's why I just keep going, because it's fascinating. And then, and it seems like the right different people come into my, my, you know, my area, just to ask if they can be on it. And it's, it always works out really well, like it's always something that else that I've just kind of broadens it a little bit, but I, I'm trying to be more focused this night, last two months now, in that, you know, in conjunction with my daughter and just doing the parents with accessible, you know, needs, or kids with adaptive needs. And also, some adults are coming to me now too, saying they've in their 30s and 40s, they were in psycho with ADHD, and so they're that diverse, neuro, diverse group. So, I mean, who knows where that will take me, right? I'm open to it   Michael Hingson ** 49:18 well, and that's what makes it so much fun. You never know where the journey is going to take you, or if you do, and you're all embracing it, so much the better. But if you don't know what's an adventure, and that's good too, that's   49:28 great. No, I agree with you, yeah. So I love how   Michael Hingson ** 49:31 many, how many pot of Palooza events have you been to? That   Susan Janzen ** 49:34 was my first one. I know I did not have a clue what to expect. I put you down as my potential guest, though, but I don't know how it didn't come up forward. So I'm glad we're doing this now, but I I really enjoyed it. I love the people, and you could tell we were all in the same room with the same visions and the same, you know, compassionate areas that we're working in. So. I was really grateful for a lot of the people I met, great people. Well   Michael Hingson ** 50:03 now you and I also have an event time scheduled next Tuesday. Do we good? Yeah, are you? Well, you scheduled it in my Zoom. But if you, if you, when you go look at your calendar, you'll see, I think what you did was you scheduled it, forgetting this was supposed to be a 60 minute interview conversation. But if you send me a link, this is live radio sports fans. If you send me a link, then I will come to yours next time, next Tuesday, at the time that we're supposed to meet, rather than you coming into the Zoom Room, where we are, or I can make you a co host, and you can record it your choice.   Susan Janzen ** 50:45 Oh, what? Hey, yes, let's do it. Okay,   Michael Hingson ** 50:49 I'll just, we'll, we'll get together, and I'll make you a host or a co host, that'd be perfect.   Susan Janzen ** 50:54 And then you can record it that'd be great. Or, I have three streams, so I can send you the link for that you   Michael Hingson ** 51:01 choose, but long as it's accessible to screen readers, I'm happy. And,   Susan Janzen ** 51:09 yeah, thank you for that, Michael, I did. We'll do that. You got it good. We're booked. Yeah, we are   Michael Hingson ** 51:16 already booked. So it's next Tuesday, so that'll be good. That'll be great, but it's a lot of fun.   Susan Janzen ** 51:23 Yeah, really it's it's nice to get to know people. It's really nice to know other people's journeys. And especially, what I find most fascinating is all over the world, like we're meeting people that we would have never met. Yeah, you know before. So I'm glad. I really   Michael Hingson ** 51:36 appreciate that I've met a number of people from Australia. We interviewed? Well, we had a conversation with somebody from Uganda, number of people in England and people throughout the United States. So it's a lot of fun.   Susan Janzen ** 51:49 It really is, yeah, so we're blessed that that's great. It's a   Michael Hingson ** 51:53 wonderful blessing. I mean, doing this is so enjoyable. I used to do radio in college, and so this the neat thing about doing a podcast, at least the way I do it, is you're not absolutely governed by time, so you don't have to end at four o'clock and and it's so much more fun than radio, because you are the one that's really in control of what you do. So it's it's a lot of fun, but I very much enjoy doing the podcast, right?   Susan Janzen ** 52:23 You're right is that if they start having to go to worship break and not have to take the time and stopping and starting, that is really,   Michael Hingson ** 52:30 oh, that people seem to like it. They they keep emailing me and saying they like it. And I, I'm hoping that they continue to do that. As long as people are happy with me doing it, I'm going to do it. And you know, as I tell everyone, if you know anyone who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, want to hear from you and provide us with an introduction, because it is part of what we do. And so, so much fun,   Susan Janzen ** 52:53 so much fun. So tell me why you Why did you choose that name unstoppable mindset?   Michael Hingson ** 52:59 You know, I was looking for a name. And I've heard some people kind of talking about unstoppable in their lives in some way, but I also thought that we really needed to define what unstoppable meant. And so I just thought about it for a while, and it just really kind of clicked. And I said, Okay, God, that must be what you want me to do. So we're going to have unstoppable mindset. We're inclusion, diversity in the unexpected beat. Love it and it's and it is stuck. And every title for people starts with unstoppable. So you'll be unstoppable something or other. I gotta think about the title, unless you've got some bright idea.   Susan Janzen ** 53:48 Oh yeah, you have to let me know.   Michael Hingson ** 53:51 Well, I'm trying to use something like unstoppable. Woman of many talents. But you know,   Susan Janzen ** 53:56 yeah, I don't have just 111, little lane. I love learning about everything, and I love open and grateful for every opportunity. So that's probably my problem. Yeah, that's our problem. That's not really a problem, but I know it's not,   Michael Hingson ** 54:11 and it's so much fun. So what are your goals for the podcast? How do you hope it will make a difference in the world?   Susan Janzen ** 54:21 I think my, my biggest thing is to say, you know, I've been through, I think it's showing people that they're not alone, that there are people out there who do understand, and there are people there that really do care about them, and that we want to provide information and services, and we want to hear their story. We want them to just know. I think a lot of people feel when they're in situations that are not whatever normal is, whatever that is even mean that they're just they're in isolation, and they're there's nobody that cares and that they don't matter. And I think my biggest thing in my coaching and in my podcast. Have to just say, You know what, we're here, and we really want to understand, if we don't understand, explain it to us. So we do, and that you're not alone in this, and we we're here to help, you know, to collaborate and to help each other.   Michael Hingson ** 55:11 Yeah, well, tell us a little bit more about the whole coaching program, what's what's happening now, what your goals are for that, and and how you're finding people and so on,   Susan Janzen ** 55:22 right? So the coaching my specific areas are confidence and resilience is my is my title, like confidence and resilience coach and I, and I'm going based on my past and the resilience that I've overcome so many different things. So I've got kind of a long list of things every time. So you talk to say, yeah, no, I that's happened to me, but, and just to, just to encourage people to come into either one on one coaching, or I'm going to have group coaching. And on my website, I also want to have drivers where we we create more value, so that if they're a member, then they can get more podcasts that are more about the how tos, like exactly, specifically areas that they might be interested in. And I also want to create a group where we can have, like a one day a week, coffee time, coffee chat, so we can get people together who are in the same boat, especially those parents with children with a breath of me, and just a place where they can just, kind of no agenda, just to chat and and I also would love to have, like a retreat by the end of the year. Let's all gather, and let's just have a day, you know, together, where we can enjoy each other's company. So that's kind of what I'd like to build with my, with my, with my coaching packages, and then also one on one, of course, as well. And that's, yeah, I would like to have a community, like, build a community. So   Michael Hingson ** 56:51 do you do any of your coaching virtually, or is it all in person? Well,   Susan Janzen ** 56:55 right now it's virtual, like, the one coaching I've done so far and but I'm open to either, like, I'm happy to meet people I don't have an office. Um, is that interesting? How, if you would have asked me that question before COVID, bc I would have just had an office somewhere, and where now it's, like, virtual just is so convenient. Yeah? Meeting full and just all the driving I've eliminated, it's been amazing. So, yeah, I would be open to eat it. You know,   Susan Janzen ** 57:27 how far away have you had clients from?   Susan Janzen ** 57:31 Basically, the ones I've had are the ones that I've had up till now. Really, interestingly enough, are local. They're more local people so we could have met for coffee. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 57:43 and still might, and we still, I'm   Susan Janzen ** 57:47 sure we will. I'm sure we will, because I keep in touch with them, and they're doing great, but interesting, isn't that interesting? It's a really good question, though, because I'm curious to see you know how far you know, the word will get out to come and join me, you know, in the coaching program, yeah, that'd be human.   Michael Hingson ** 58:08 Well, it sounds like a lot of fun. It sounds like fun, yeah, so why do you still continue to sing? Oh, I   Susan Janzen ** 58:15 can't stop I can't shut up. I just think it's like, even it, yeah, it's too hard for me to stop. It's my joy. That's where I find my you know, even as a kid, going through all the tough times I went through, that was my my joy. It was my vice happy place. So I just   Michael Hingson ** 58:32 so do you think that that singing helps others with confidence and resilience?   Susan Janzen ** 58:36 I um, I think, I think the the techniques that are used in singing, a lot of them are used in podcasting or speaking. A lot of them, we are speakers, for instance. And then they have, they worry about confidence on camera specifically, and when that where light comes on, or when the light comes on, and they just don't know how they're looking or how people are seeing them, those kind of areas, those are the things that I kind of tackle when I talk, talk to them and just explain it as a like, I sang the national anthem for a Stanley Cup playoff game. That's scary, like, that's that's really scary. So I mean, I know I've been there, and I know what that feels like, and I know how your body feels, and I know the importance of breathing, and I think one of the biggest things is just getting people to, just to take deep breaths. You know, when   Michael Hingson ** 59:28 you're when you relax and you lean into it, which I'm sure you do because you're used to it. That gives you a confidence that you can then project onto other people 100% Yeah, exactly. You talked about the red light on the camera coming on. It reminds me of one of my favorite stories. Yeah, right after September 11, I was interviewed on Larry King Live on scene. Oh, wow, wow. We actually had five different interviews, and when the second one occurred, mm. Uh, the the the producer, the director, came into the studio where I was and Larry was still out in California, and I was doing it from CNN in New York. And you know, when they, when they do their shows, everything is like, from sort of the chest up. It's mainly dealing with your face and so on. So for Roselle, excuse me, for Roselle to be able to be my guide dog, to be part of the show, they build a platform that we put her up on. Now she was just laying there. And the director came in and he said, you know, your dog isn't really doing anything. Is there anything we can do to make her more animated? And I said, are the Clea lights on? Because I couldn't really tell and he said, No. I said, then don't worry about it. When those lights come on, she will be a totally different dog, because she figured out cameras. She loved to go in front of the camera. The klieg lights came on, she lifts up her head, she's yawning, she's blinking, she's wagging her tail. It was perfect. Yeah, it's one of my favorite stories. But that is so great. I guess it's also the time to tell you that the name of my third guide dog was, here it comes, Klondike. Oh, really, my third guide dog, anything was a golden retriever. His name was Klondike.   Susan Janzen ** 1:01:18 Oh, that's and I know I'm public dates, and then you got two of us here. This is great. Yeah, that is so cool. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:26 if people want to reach out and get get in contact with you, they want to learn about your coaching programs and so on. How do they do that?   Susan Janzen ** 1:01:35 So I think the best way is, my website is this, www, dot Sue. Janssen, I'm just going by my short Susan. So S, U, E, J, a, n, z, e n, dot, C, A diamet, and that'll kind of give you everything there. There'll be a little video of my granddaughter on there. There'll be ways to get in touch with me and to book a call. So that would be great. And then we'll chat about it,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:59 and we have an image of your book cover in in the show notes and so on. And so I hope people will pick that up. Um, I always ask this, although a lot of times it doesn't happen. But does it happen to also be availabl

Our guest this time is a prolific author, Kim Lengling. Kim is prolific as she has been the lead author on six book anthologies. I cannot say that she came by writing honestly. She grew up in a small Northern Pennsylvania town. After graduating from high school instead of going on to college Kim joined the military with great thoughts and ideas of leaving her small town upbringing and seeing the world. As she describes it, she did leave the small town world, but she only had military duty state side. After four years of service she left the military life and moved back to a “small town” in Pennsylvania.   Over time she began and pursued a career in sales and marketing. Along the way she married and had a daughter. She also took a keen interest in helping veterans and veteran organizations.   I asked Kim how she began her writing career. She will tell the story about how she was asked to give a speech to some 800 veterans. The story about her talk is remarkable and the unexpected turn her life made after her speech is worth hearing directly from Kim. Bottom line is that Kim was convinced to begin writing articles. Since 2020 she added writing and self publishing books to her repertoire of accomplishments.   As it turns out, Kim and I both experienced unexpected life changes due to public speaking. Both of us chose to take full advantage of the opportunities that came our way and we both are the better for it. I very much enjoyed my conversation with Kim and I hope you will as well.       About the Guest:   As a multi-published author, Kim shares her love of nature and animals, her life with PTSD, and her mission to toss out Nuggets of Hope through her writing and podcast. Kim is the lead author and coordinator of six anthologies: The When Grace Found Me Series (three books), When Hope Found Me, Paw Prints on the Couch, and Paw Prints on the Kitchen Floor. Her newest book, Nuggets of Hope, was released on November 15, 2024. In addition to writing, she hosts the podcast Let Fear Bounce, which spotlights people who have faced and overcome personal fear(s) to make a difference in their slice of the world through writing, coaching, film production, philanthropy, teaching, founding non-profits, public speaking, or simply being an amazing human being. You can regularly find Kim drinking coffee, reading, and talking with the critters in the woods while taking long walks with her dog, Dexter. Visit her website, www.kimlenglingauthor.com, to keep up with everything happening in her realm.   Ways to connect Kim:     Website:                                www.kimlenglingauthor.com   Amazon:                               https://www.amazon.com/author/kimlengling   Let Fear Bounce                 @Letfearbounce Apple:                                   https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/let-fear-bounce/id1541906455   Facebook:                            https://www.facebook.com/letfearbouncepodcast   LinkedIn:                              https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimberlylengling/   Instagram:                            https://www.instagram.com/lenglingauthor/   Twitter:                                  https://www.tiktok.com/@klengling?lang=en   TikTok:                                 ** https://www.tiktok.com/@klengling?lang=en   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. And today is kind of a fun one, because I get to talk to another author. One of the things that I participate in and have done for a little while are book fairs, including virtual book fairs, and our guest today, Kim Lengling and I, lengling and I were both on a virtual book fair just a couple of weeks ago talking about our books and this and that and all the other stuff. And I made it really clear that I'm always looking for a good podcast guests, and it just seemed like the right thing to do. And of course, then Kim said, well, not unless you're going to be on my podcast too. So we are going to reciprocate next week. So I actually had a a message, an email yesterday from someone who wanted me to come on their podcast to talk about disabilities. And then they, before I responded, they sent a second letter saying, You do understand, we don't pay for podcast guests or anything like that, which I never expected to to have to to deal with anyway. But I wrote back, and I said, Well, I'm sorry, I do charge. And the charges that you have to be on if you want me on your podcast, then you gotta be on my podcast too. So it's fun to tease, but anyway, Kim, welcome to unstoppable mindset. After all that.   Kim Lengling ** 02:44 Well, thank you. Thanks for having man, I think it's going to be fun doing a podcast swap. Oh   Michael Hingson ** 02:49 yeah, it's a lot of fun to do that, and it's and it's kind of neat, and we get to know each other better and all that. And next year, when we have the book fair, we can, we can always team up on other people, because we'll know each other better.   Kim Lengling ** 03:01 That's right. That is right. And I those book fairs. They're fun. I enjoy doing those. They are and   Michael Hingson ** 03:08 I think the video of it is now out, so it's pretty cool that it is there and is available so well, I want to again. Thank you for coming on and chatting. It's always fun. And as I explained, our podcasts, our conversation, so let's converse and go from there. I'd love to start by learning kind of, maybe, about the early Kim growing up and all that stuff. Early Kim, the early Kim a long time ago, and I guess, long, long, far away.   03:43 You know, like I get that song stuck in my head.   03:47 Oh, yeah,   Kim Lengling ** 03:50 okay, well, I grew up in a small country town, and I think my graduating class had 72 people total, and it was just, you know, I'm glad I grew up where I did and how I did in the country. I grew up playing outside, and I still play outside every day, 50 some years later. But yet, growing up in a small town, everybody knows each other, which is wonderful, and everybody knows each other, which can be kind of crappy, too, sometimes.   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 Well, there's the other song, everybody knows your name. Oh yeah. From cheers,   04:29 yeah. We're just going to keep on breaking.   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 We're doing great.   Kim Lengling ** 04:37 But yeah, I grew up in a small town, and I I'm very appreciative of the small town, I guess I don't know morals and ethics that I learned growing up, and I've tried very hard when raising my own daughter, who is now married and has her own daughter, I tried and worked hard to instill that those same type of values. Within her. And I think I did a pretty good job. But I did, I did. I liked how I grew up, and then I left my small town right after graduation and went into the military, and thinking, you know, oh yeah, I'm gonna go to this small town and I'm gonna see the world by Gully. And it's, you know, it's, it's a, it's an eye opener. I because I didn't go to college, so, you know, I don't know that. I don't have that experience. I went into the military, and that's an eye opener. It's just, wham, you are no longer small town camp. Yeah, you are now. You are now a spoke in the wheel, and we and you don't even have a name, and you're going to be rebuilt into something different. And I am truly thankful, actually, for my military experience. I feel everybody should have to be in it for at least 12 months. It teaches you so much about discipline, self awareness, leadership skills that we can all use as we grow and you know, yeah, that's kind of my younger self in a small nutshell.   Michael Hingson ** 06:10 How long were you in the military? Four years. Okay, now, the small town you grew up in was that in Pennsylvania? Yes. Okay, so, yep,   Kim Lengling ** 06:21 grew up surrounded by farm fields and cows and deer and everything else, all the critters and all that. I just, I love it, and I still live in the same type of area not far from my small town that I grew up in, and still get to enjoy all of the nature, you know, all of the critters that come through. And just I had a black bear come through the other day. Michael, ooh, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 06:41 And did you have a good conversation with the bear? No,   Kim Lengling ** 06:45 I didn't chat. Didn't want to do that, huh? No, it's I've seen that. I've seen I've lived where I'm at now for, gosh, just about just shy of 30 years, and I've seen bear tracks out there when I'm walking with my dog, but I've never actually come face to face with the actual bear. It was caught on a trail cam, and my neighbors sent it to me and said, Hey, this guy's going through your backyard at 430 this morning. And I'm like, Oh, boy.   Michael Hingson ** 07:16 I don't know whether you can ever make friends with a bear or not.   Kim Lengling ** 07:19 I you know, I'm not going to try. I don't think, yeah, they're kind   Michael Hingson ** 07:24 of big. They are kind of big. I suppose, if they make the initial Overture and they're friendly about it, that's one thing, but probably going the other way is a little bit more risky. Yeah,   Kim Lengling ** 07:36 yeah. I, you know, I would probably just not want to try. Yeah, just, you know, they're 700 and up pounds. That's, uh, that's, They're big. They're   Michael Hingson ** 07:46 big. Well, and then there's always a moose, which gets even bigger.   Kim Lengling ** 07:50 And see, we don't have moose where I'm at, yeah, yeah. And I've never seen one of those in person either. But I always thought, you know, well, you see online and stuff, just how big they are, they're so tall, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 08:04 and they're probably not the most friendly creatures. Oh,   Kim Lengling ** 08:07 they're not see, I don't know anything about moose, because we don't have them in my neck of the woods.   Michael Hingson ** 08:13 Yeah, I think it'd be fun to try to meet one, but I don't know whether that would be a good idea or not, so I don't either. If somebody else tells me that they have a moose that I could meet, I would believe them. But until that happens, I'm not going to worry   Kim Lengling ** 08:28 about it. Yeah, yeah, not something to worry about.   Michael Hingson ** 08:31 I don't Same, same with a bear. Now, on the other hand, I know your dog's name is Dexter, yeah, and I wonder what Dexter would think of a moose or a bear close up.   Kim Lengling ** 08:44 You know, I'm not sure, because he does his he's a he's pretty big dog. He's not huge, but he's a bigger dog. And there are certain times when we're out in the evening because it's pitch black. I mean, I'm out in the country. There's no lights out here, so it's pitch black out there. So I have a flashlight, and he has a collar on that lights up. And there are times when he will stop, and I call it his big boy stance, because he stops and his whole body just stiffens up, and he's staring at the woods. Now he can see stuff I can't Yeah, yeah, you know. And so I sit there, and I flash the flashlight back through there, because I carry a very powerful flashlight with me, so it lights up everything. And then when I see two yellow eyes staring at me from the woods, I'm never really sure what it might be. And I watch what Dexter's doing, yeah, and there are times where he where he will put himself in front of me, and then there's times where he comes and he will bump my leg with his head, and then turns and starts running back to the house, like, stay out here. Yeah, yeah. So it's been interesting to watch how he how he I follow his lead. When it's dark outside and we're outside, I. Follow   Michael Hingson ** 10:00 his lead. Smart move. What kind of dog is Dexter?   Kim Lengling ** 10:03 He is a Belgian Malwa Mastiff mix. Oh, so he's a big one, kinda, yeah, yeah, not huge. He's about 80 pounds, but he's a he's a good sized dog,   Michael Hingson ** 10:13 bigger than my black lab guide dog, Alamo, who's about 63 pounds.   Kim Lengling ** 10:18 Oh, okay. Labs are wonderful. Labs are awesome. But   Michael Hingson ** 10:22 again, it's all about trust. And I would trust Alamo's instincts any day and do and of course, yes, yeah, you know, but, but it isn't just the the normal guiding, but just in general, his behavior. I observe it pretty closely, and I think it's an important thing to do, because, as you said, they tend to see a whole lot of things that we don't necessarily see.   Kim Lengling ** 10:47 Right, right? No, yeah, even with my other dog, digger, prior to Dexter, digger was about 105 pounds. He was a pretty big dog, real tall and lean and long. He was very protective of me. Oh, and he would always have to be touching me or in front of me, and I took him everywhere with me. We were always out in public, and he was always if someone would approach, he would let them know I would follow his lead. He would never growl, but he would show his teeth like a scary smile, yeah. And I'd be like, Okay, we're not going any further. I'm not going to interact with this person. This person. And then other times he would just come and kind of nudge me, and his tail would start wagging. I'm like, Okay, this person's probably okay. Then it's very you know, dogs or animals period, are just amazing in their instincts. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 11:34 I've been pretty blessed that Alamo has not yet met a stranger. But also we haven't really encountered anyone that would be a really mean, nasty person, and I have seen some dogs who do sense that very well. My first guide dog was a golden retriever. He was 64 pounds, and when we were in college, and I wrote about it in my my new book, live like a guide dog in in college. On our first year we were at UC Irvine. It was a very open, somewhat rural campus, just in terms of what was around us in Orange County, which is not so rural anymore, but people would bring their dogs to campus, and they would just let the dogs roam while they went to class, and then they'd find them at the end and a bunch of dogs, just all congealed, if you will, into a pack. And they would, they would go around together. And one day, they decided that they were going to come after Squire and me. They were behind us, and as they got closer, they were growling, and Squire was doing his job of guiding, but all of a sudden he jerked, and actually jerked the harness out of my hand. I still held his leash, but he he completely jerked away, and literally, as it was described, because somebody else was watching it, he jerked, leaped up, turned around, and went down on all fours, facing these dogs, and started growling, and it just completely caught them off guard, and they just slunked away. But I've never seen a dog do that before, and I haven't seen a dog do that since, and Squire, of all dogs, a golden retriever, for heaven's sakes,   Kim Lengling ** 13:22 right? Yeah, they're usually just friendly, friendly, friendly, yeah, but   Michael Hingson ** 13:25 he, he knew what he was doing, and yeah, and he, he dealt with them.   Kim Lengling ** 13:32 That's awesome. Well, so I just love dogs.   Michael Hingson ** 13:35 Oh, yeah. Well, and we, and we have a cat here. So my wife passed away two years ago. So it's me, dog and cat,   13:43 and quite the trio you have going on.   Michael Hingson ** 13:46 Then we all, we all communicate very well, and they all, and they like each other. And I would not have it any other way. I would not want a guide dog that was in any way antagonistic toward cats. Now, now that wouldn't work well. Now Alamo doesn't Chase Stitch. Stitch has claws. I think Alamo is smart enough that he understands that, but, but they do rub noses and they play and they talk. So it works out all right, and every so often, stitch will steal Alamo's bed, and poor Alamo doesn't know what to do with himself, because he can't lay on his bed because the cat's there and he won't try to make her move. I think a couple times they both have been on the bed, but mostly not,   Kim Lengling ** 14:28 yeah, yeah. My my dog. Unfortunately, he's like, a single animal type dog, you know, it can only be him and and the neighbors cats. Sometimes, if they end up in my yard, he gets them up in a tree. So he's he's got a he's got a very big prey drive for anything smaller than him. We   Michael Hingson ** 14:53 had a we had a dachshund. Once it was a miniature dachshund. Oh, and he treated cat. One day before my brother and I went off to high school for the day, and this cat was up in the tree. We came home and Pee Wee was still barking at this cat up in the tree. The cat was up in the tree sound asleep, not worried about anything. This dog's dog didn't know when to shut up anyway. It was kind of funny.   Kim Lengling ** 15:25 Well, dogs are amazing. My dog, when he is he's treed raccoons, all kinds of stuff, anything smaller than him, he takes off after he has he does have quite the prey drive. And I think that's the Belgian mountain wall coming out in him. Yeah, you know, pretty sure that's that part. And I've not been able to get him to stop that. But I'm in the country and, you know, okay, it is, it is what it is. It is what it is.   Michael Hingson ** 15:53 Well, so did you see much of the world when you were in the military?   Kim Lengling ** 15:56 I was actually all stateside, interestingly enough, yeah. Well, you saw the country then I did. I saw some of the country. So, yeah, I'm it's, it's an experience that I'm glad that I I had. What did you do? I did Morse code, actually. Okay, yeah. And it's funny, years ago I ran into, because this is quite some time ago, quite some time ago, and it was years ago I ran into a couple of younger Navy guys at a gas station. They were filling up their car, and I, of course, went up and thanked them for their service. And I had just come from a funeral, so I was in a military funeral, and I was part of the honor guard at that time, so I was in my honor guard uniform, and they're like, well, thank you for your service. What branch were you? And we're just chit chatting, you know, like folks do. And they said, Well, what did you do? What was your MOS and I told them, and they looked at each other, and their cheeks got red, and I said, What's What's so funny? And they said, Oh, ma'am, we don't use Morse code anymore. And I went, Oh, well, my goodness, when did they stop using it? And the one, the one kid, and they were kids, they were like, probably 18 to me. Anyway, they were at the time, 1819, years old. And the one looked at the other, and they said, Well, wait a minute. No, no, we did use it that one time. I remember there in the Navy, and they were on deployment out in the ocean, sea, wherever. And they said, no, no, there. Remember that one time that that old guy, he did use Morse code. He had, we had to use it because some part of the electrical went out. And I and they were, I looked at them and I went, when you say old guy, what? What do you mean by that? And their faces turned so red. And the one kid, he goes, Oh Ma'am, he must have been at least, oh geez, 37 and at that time I was like, 41 I just started laughing. And I said, well, he wasn't really all that old, you guys, but So yeah, that was a and so   Michael Hingson ** 18:02 what do they use now that they don't use Morse code? I honestly   Kim Lengling ** 18:05 don't know. I think everything is more electronic. And yeah, I mean, yeah, it's been so long since I've been it's been a while. It's been, it's been a decade or few.   Michael Hingson ** 18:15 Well, I learned Morse code to get my ham radio license, and I still remember it and and it, and it still is a means of communications that can sometimes break through when voice and other things don't come through. Absolutely,   Kim Lengling ** 18:29 absolutely no, yeah, and I don't remember a lot of it, probably just because I was so sick of hearing it. I don't, I actually don't remember a lot of it, but if needed, I could, oh yeah, touch up on it.   Michael Hingson ** 18:47 So how fast were you able to receive code? Um,   Kim Lengling ** 18:51 we had to, in order. We had to pass a certain what was it? 2222 words a minute. Okay, I think, I think we had to get 20 I think it was 22 in training when we had, when we were in tech school in order to progress. I think it was 22 Yeah, yeah. And that's fast for people who don't realize when all you're listening to is, did audit, yep. I mean and going 22 words a minute. It's it just sounds like   Michael Hingson ** 19:18 I went a friend of mine, who was also a ham operator, and I were talking one day, and he was telling me about this kid that he had met on the air, and they were both doing code, and he decided that since this kid was a kid, that he would play a trick on him. And he slowly started speeding up how fast he was sending the code, and I don't know how fast he got to and then the kid said, Oh, you want to play that game. And he just started going at like, about 60 or 65 words a minute, which means he was probably using an electronic key or a bug, but I don't   19:56 know, right? Because how would you do that with your fingers? Really? It would   Michael Hingson ** 19:59 be hard. But anyway, this kid was doing it, and the guy went, Okay, you got me.   Kim Lengling ** 20:07 So, yeah, amazing. I mean, it truly is amazing. It's, it's amazing, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 20:13 and, and it's, it's still a very relevant thing to to have in the arsenal if you need it ever. Oh, I agree. I agree. Yeah. So, so what did you do when you came back from being in the military for four years?   Kim Lengling ** 20:27 I came back to my small hometown and didn't do much for a bit. I was kind of a weird it was, it was, wasn't so easy transitioning home from to, you know, being in the military, to coming back to the hometown, because nothing felt right anymore, right? Well, you were in a different world, right? And I was a different person, yeah. And so I didn't stick. I didn't stay there very long. I got a job, you know, got a job, and then it was couple years later, I ended up marrying my high school sweetheart, and we, you know, got married, had got a little place, little house in a different town, and had my daughter. And, you know, did that became a wife and mom and, you know, did the working and being a wife and a mom and all of that stuff? So,   Michael Hingson ** 21:27 yeah, so do you still do that?   Kim Lengling ** 21:31 No, I am divorced. My daughter is mid 30s and married and has her own daughter. So I'm I'm actually a brand new grandma. Oh, there you go. And I am just loving it. I'm loving every second of it, but you don't have the husband anymore. No, no, it's me and Dexter, and that's just fine. Yeah, it's just fine. And so well, and that it's I've, I have found out, you know, it's interesting when you're a wife, a mom, you work full time, and then your life completely changes, and you're an empty nester, completely empty nest, and it's just you and the dog. You have to find out who you are again, yeah, and it was very interesting for me, because I was like, oh my goodness, I forgot who Kim was. So it was an interesting journey to find that out and to find out, you know, what did I even like to do? Because I was always running here, running there, doing this, doing that, family, kids, stuff, you know, all of the things, doing all the things. And then I was, you know, now I had time to figure out, what do I like to do, geez, what did I like to do? You know? So it was interesting. Spent. It was interesting the first few years figuring out who I was again and what I liked to do and what makes me, you know, what fulfills me and and, you know, to reach a point where I'm thriving in that, you know, it was interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 23:02 And what did you decide that you like to do?   Kim Lengling ** 23:07 I like writing, and I love doing and I love doing my podcast and volunteering I volunteer for with my veteran post, been doing that for over 25 years now, helping veterans in need, those folks that might need a little bit of help here and there, and then also, it's a project support our troops, which is a monthly thing we've been doing every month for 24 years, sending care packages to those men and women who are deployed around the globe so, and it's all done by donations. So that's, that's a lot, it's a lot of my time, and a lot of where my heart is is helping those folks. So I've been able to really, you know, put a lot into that, which is very fulfilling.   Michael Hingson ** 23:56 What made you decide that you really liked writing?   Kim Lengling ** 24:00 You know, it was years ago. When was it? Oh, gosh, close to 20 years. Oh, my goodness, a long, long time ago. About almost 20 years ago, I was asked to give a speech at a local veteran event. And it was a large veteran event. There's about 800 people there. I had never spoken in public before, and I was asked to give a speech. And I my step grandfather, so my stepfather, his dad, was the last surviving World War One veteran in my area. Ooh, and he passed away in 1997 and I thought, you know, I'm gonna talk about him. So I spent quite a bit of time with my step dad, and we went through his dad's stuff that he had brought home, and I learned all kinds of stuff about him and his time in World War One, and he was, he was the last man of the last man's Club. Job, and that was formed in themes France on Armistice Day, and the mayor of this small village in France had a bottle of wine and came out to the boys of Company B, literally, they were the boys of Company B from my town, and gave them this bottle of wine in celebration, you know, of the signing of the armistice, and the guys all decided they weren't going to drink it. They were going to keep it. And as time went on, it would pass to the next comrade, and whoever was the last man standing would be the one that has that bottle of wine, and he would then open it toast his fallen comrades. So the the last man's club is what they called it. And my step grandfather was the last man of the last man's club, and he passed away at the age of 104 Wow. And so I shared his story and the story of the last man's club. That was my speech. And it was, it was about a 15 minute speech, and for someone who'd never spoken in public before, and you know this, 15 minutes is a long time, can be a long time to talk in front of a group of people, and there were television cameras there, and it was just, it was overwhelming. But I got up there the first two minutes, my voice was shaking because I was a little nervous, and then I just fell into the story, because it's just a beautiful story. And when I was done, it was, there was, and I'm there, was about 800 people there. It was total silence. I mean, you could hear a pin drop, and I thought, oh my goodness, I just blew it. But then there was one, one person started clapping, and then another. And then the place like this was an outdoor event, they interrupted. They just went crazy, and people were crying, and the local newspaper came up to me. The local newspaper editor came up to me and said, Would you consider writing an article, you know, about veterans for the for the paper? And I said, Oh, my goodness, I'm no writer. And he goes, Well, who wrote your speech? And I said, Well, I did. And he goes, well, then you're a writer. And that was the little spark that that lit something up in me. Somebody saw something in me that I had never even considered looking for in myself. And so that was the little spark that got me going so   Michael Hingson ** 27:34 you hadn't really contemplated, contemplated writing before then,   Kim Lengling ** 27:38 no, not at all. And and and never, really, it had never entered my mind. And I started doing these monthly articles, and I was interviewing veterans. And I'm very I'm very connected with my local veteran community, and being a veteran myself, the veterans were pretty comfortable talking to me, and I, you know, I spoke to numerous former prisoners of war. Most of, most of who I interviewed over the years were combat veterans. A lot of them were Vietnam vet combat veterans, and hearing their stories. And first off, it was very humbling that they would even share them with me, yeah, because a lot of them won't or don't want to, or can't, you know, can't, yeah. And so for 14 years, I did that each month, and there were, I started getting a following, you know, I, you know, I'd run into because they, they would post a picture with me and my article in the paper each month, and I'd run into people, and they'd be like, Oh my gosh, you just brought me to tears with that article. And I just so enjoy reading your monthly stuff. And that's when, you know, I just I didn't know what I was doing. And when I look back at some of those nights, I'm like, Oh my gosh, Kim, you were such an awful, awful writer. But as time went on, I could, I learned. And then I just started doing some stuff online, finding free courses, and, you know, doing what I could, teaching myself a lot of stuff about writing and just how to make it better. And so that's, that's kind of, I just kept, I rolled with it. I just kept rolling with it. And now that I, the last five years, I've had the opportunity to actually work from home full time now and put a lot more of my time into writing, and I'm still learning. We all learn something. We're still, you know, we're all learning, hopefully, we're all learning something. And so, yeah, hopefully so I can see how my my writing has changed, how my voice has changed, and I just hope, I just hope I'm better than I was yesterday. That's what I hope each day, I'm a little bit better of a writer than I was yesterday, because hopefully I learned something new.   Michael Hingson ** 29:48 And that's fair, we have somewhat similar starts in the whole process. So for me, of course, September 11 happened, and um. The media got the story and like, about a week and a half after September 11. I don't remember exactly what day it was. It must have been around the 20th or so of of September, but I got a call on the phone, and this guy said he was the pastor of a church, and he had heard about me, and asked if I would come and speak at a church service they were going to hold. And I said, Well, I guess tell me more about him. He said, Well, we want to hold a church service for all the people who were lost in the World Trade Center who were from New Jersey. I said, Okay, that seems like a would be a worthwhile thing to do. And so we agreed to do it. And then kind of the last thing I asked him before hanging up was, how many people are going to be at this service? And he said, Well, it's going to be an outdoor service, and there'll be something over 5000 people. Now it's not that I hadn't spoken in unusual situations before, because being in sales, you never know where you're going to be on any given day, from a board of directors of a Wall Street firm to IT people or whatever, but still 5000 people, and that's a lot. And when I got there, I also learned that Lisa beamer was there. Now Lisa's husband, Todd, was the guy on flight 93 who said, let's roll. Let's roll. Yeah. And Lisa was not an animal lover, but she and Roselle hit it off, and so she she really and Roselle was my guide dog in the World Trade Center. So they had a thing going, which was kind of cool, but the speech wasn't overly long. It was only supposed to be about six or seven minutes, and it was, and that is really what got me started down the road of doing public speaking. Then the next year, we were at an event where I met the publisher of the AKC Gazette, and George said, You should write a book. I said, I've never thought of writing a book, and it took eight years to get it done and get the right combination, including someone to collaborate with, because I wasn't really all that familiar with writing. But anyway, we wrote thunder dog, and it got published in 2011 became a New York Times bestseller. So that was pretty cool. But, you know, circumstances do offer us opportunities, and it's important to really take them when you can. And so we you and I have both done that in various ways, yeah,   Kim Lengling ** 32:35 and it's interesting when you look back to see how things unfold. Mm, hmm, you know, and you had mentioned that you were in sales, and that's my background, 25 years of sales and marketing. So it's and I've talked to I've talked Well, I'm sure you have too as well. Many, many authors, and a lot of them have some sort of sales or marketing in their background. Have you found that to be true as well? I   Michael Hingson ** 32:59 have, and especially today, you have to, because the publishers aren't doing nearly as much as they used to to promote books, and they want the authors to do a lot more. And I think that the publishers, some of the publishers, could do more than they're doing, but they because they rely on social media and so on. But there's a lot more to it than that. But unfortunately, that's not what they do. So, you know, you you cope with what you got. That's   Kim Lengling ** 33:26 right, that's right, you know. And I found that a lot of the the larger publishing houses, and even some of the mid sized ones, in order for them to even take you on, you have to have a certain number of followers, or whatever it is on your combined social media platforms, yeah, and so many authors don't, don't.   Michael Hingson ** 33:53 And you know, we're not   Kim Lengling ** 33:54 all out there being influencers, you know, yeah, but   Michael Hingson ** 33:57 you also have to make the commitment to promote, and so absolutely, so we do and it, and it's, it's part of what needs to be done. And I don't mind, and I understand the concept of an author has to be part of what promotes their book. They they shouldn't rely totally on the publisher, and that's fine, but I do think that publishers could do more than they do a lot of times to help today, that social media is the thing. Well, it's not the only thing, and you miss out on a lot, on a lot, by just dealing with social media,   34:34 right? That's where a good publicist comes in.   34:37 Yeah.   Kim Lengling ** 34:41 Yeah, yeah, that's, that's helpful, but no, yeah. And I, well, I enjoy doing the but it's so it's almost a full time job marketing. Just, it is, you know, it's, it's a lot of work. And, you know, I, I'm self published. I didn't go the, the traditional publishing route. I. And knowing, you know, regardless, I would still be doing the same amount of work that I'm doing if I went the traditional route, right? Because I'd still have to do a majority, or, if not, all, of my own promotion, which I don't mind. I enjoy doing that, because then I actually get to meet, yes, a lot of interesting people.   35:22 You know, people it   Kim Lengling ** 35:24 is, and the people that have been put in front of me, you know, like yourself, you know, we made a connection, and now I'm here a guest on your show, and you're going to be a guest on mine. I mean, how cool is that? So, you know, you get to meet people that might have nothing to do with your book. It's just, it's just cool to you know, humanity, to meet, to meet other good, decent people is a good thing.   Michael Hingson ** 35:49 It is by, by any standard, right? You primarily today write fiction. So what got you down the road of writing fiction or non actually, non fiction, non fiction, non fiction,   Kim Lengling ** 36:01 that it was. It was all of the interviewing that I did with the veterans, you know, keeping keep into the the personal stories. I really enjoyed that I I enjoy it, and being able to not only write the story, but pull that emotion from it too. And I found that at first it was somewhat intimidating, because I'm thinking, how can I, how can I get these in words on paper, where people are going to feel what I'm feeling right now listening to this gentleman, yeah, you know. And it just that that kind of fascinated me, and that's what made me want to keep on writing and learning how to do it better. And so I just stuck with it. So I, yeah, I've not written anything fiction   Michael Hingson ** 36:50 at all. One of the things that I I find is that what makes I think good, successful writers, l will deal with non fiction right now, but is to be yourself. So when you interviewing people, your personal self has to come through, not in in the in an opinion way, but just how you are able to portray the people who you're talking with. And interviewing it comes out so much better if you really can feel it, which is again, getting back to your, your being yourselves,   Kim Lengling ** 37:26 right? Yes, I think, yeah, being authentic, yeah, just, you know, I've had, I don't know if you've had folks on your show that I've had a few that I was the first podcast they were ever on, and they were quite nervous. And I said, Well, you know, before I even hit that record button, you know, I don't mind sitting here chit chatting for a bit, so, you know, you feel a little bit more at ease. And it just took without fail, my guests have said, you know, Kim, thank you for being such a welcoming host, and you made this fun. And, you know, there's no, because there's no pretense with me. You know, it's, it's, I'm come as I am. I'm not all, you know, I don't get all my hair is not done. I don't have a bunch of makeup on or anything like that. It's, you know, you can't. This is Kim. This is me. This is who I am every day. And, you know, hey, let's sit down and have a cup of coffee. That's that's how I try and, you know, get my guests at ease, you know. And I'm sure that you've had guests that have probably been kind of nervous, maybe it's their first time on a show or something. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 38:31 one of the things that I do, though, and I really have found that it works very well to do this, is before I have a guest on the actual podcast, I want to sit down with them and have a half hour conversation where we get to know each other. So I insist that anyone who wants to come on to unstoppable mindset has to spend some time with me ahead of time, and that way, when I find people who aren't familiar with podcasts, or, you know, they say, Well, I'd love to come on, but I don't know what to talk about. We can talk about it, and we can, we can get them to relax and recognize that they do have a story to tell, and what we want to do is to to hear their story, and they don't need to worry about being uptight, because there, there are no set rules that you have to do this or you fail. It's all about really enjoying what you do and just being willing to talk about it.   Kim Lengling ** 39:32 Yeah, and that's, that's an awesome idea. And I know a lot of podcast hosts do that. I have not I, and I don't know why. I've never really come up with a reason why I haven't had, you know, just that sit down chat 1520 minutes prior, you know, maybe a week before the show, or whatever. I've just, I've just not done that. I don't know. I we usually end up talking 10 to 15 minutes prior to me hitting record. Um, there's only, I really had one instance with one guest. And. Was a couple years ago where we did chit chat. And as we were chit chatting, it was that at that point I thought I should probably do pre screening, yeah, and I, I, we went through with the show, and I pre record everything, yeah, so I did cut it short, and I never published it. It was that was the one and only time that ever happened. This person never got back to me, never said, when's this going to be out? It was just such an uncomfortable chat. And I was thinking, wow, on paper, this person was a completely different person than when I'm actually talking, yeah, so, and it wasn't in line with anything of what we had discussed. So it was, it was, that was interesting. That's only in four years that's only happened one time, and that was one day when I thought I really should do pre screen.   Michael Hingson ** 40:59 Well, I've had, I've had two. One the we did the podcast, and this person just had no effect to their voice. And as much as I talked ahead of time about I want to hear your story and all that, he just couldn't tell a story. Oh, yeah. And so that one didn't get published, and then another one I did, and I thought it was a great podcast, but the person said, I absolutely do not want this published. I just decided that that I don't want to do it. And   Kim Lengling ** 41:35 I had one like that after we had recorded and everything, and I thought I too for and they it was like three days later, because I said, Well, it's going to be up and uploaded probably two to three weeks from now. It's like two or three days later. They said, You know, I've changed my mind. I don't want my story out there at all. Yeah, there was fear in theirs. There was fear involved. Yeah, there was, there was   Michael Hingson ** 41:55 clearly fear, um, with my person as well. Oh, yeah. And they got very, very nasty about it when I said, Look, it really is a good podcast. So, you know, I'm not going to, I don't want to have people and make people do things they don't want to do. I've had several people who have said, well, I want to hear the podcast before it goes out and and I'll say to that, no, it's a conversation, and I don't edit it. So the whole idea is that if there's any editing, it's just to deal with getting noise out of it and all that. But only that doesn't happen. But, you know, and people accept that, but again, it's fear. But the reality is that I believe everyone has a story to tell, and I believe that everyone, if they're willing to do it, should tell their story, because it will show other people that they're not any different, and we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. And that's the whole point of the podcast.   42:58 No, that's I agree. I agree 100%   Michael Hingson ** 43:02 Well, tell us. Tell me about some of the non fiction books that you've written. Tell me a little bit about what you've done and and so I just   Kim Lengling ** 43:08 had, I just had one released last week, actually called nuggets of hope. And that one has been in the works for a couple years, and it started with not me thinking about turning anything into a book. It was, it just started with the word hope. Showed up everywhere, everywhere, and I felt very strongly that I was supposed to be doing something with it. And I ended up getting polished stones with the word hope engraved on them, and carrying those with me. And I thought, Okay, I think I'm supposed to be giving nuggets of hope to people and but I wasn't sure how to do that, but I had this very strong nudge that I was meant to be doing this. And so that began a couple years ago. And I would just approach people who I would see, you know, I'm out running errands, doing my thing, and I would just someone would catch my eye, and I would feel very strongly nudged. Be like that person needs a nugget of hope. And I would just approach and say, Excuse me, ma'am, or sir, I would like to give you a nugget of hope today, and without fail, and I've been doing this for a couple years, so I've been handing out quite a few my little stones. And without fail, every single person I've approached has has put their hand out to accept that, and I get a hope and from a total stranger just coming up to them. You know, it's, it's amazing. And the reactions that I've had have just been, you know, there's been tears, there's been laughter, nervous laughter. There's been funny looks like, Who are you crazy woman approaching me? Um, I've had people hug me and I had one older gentleman yell at me in anger and swear at me in Walmart, and, you know, ask me very loudly, what the hell did he have to hope for? And but he took the nugget of hope and put it in his pocket. Yeah, and I knew in that moment with that, that particular gentleman had nothing to do with me and he was in his probably had to have been in his late 80s. So I don't know what was gone in his life, but I do firmly believe, even to this day, that I was meant to be in front of him at that moment in time and give him a nugget of hope, a nugget of hope. Yeah, I firmly believe that. And I don't know, you know, when our interaction was done, he was still an angry man, and that's okay, because I didn't let it land on me, because it wasn't supposed to. It wasn't directed at me. And I got in my car, and I actually did cry. I sat in my car with my head on my steering wheel, crying for that man, because my heart hurt for him. And I thought, you know, what? If he's what if he just lost his wife, and he has no idea. And because he was yelling at me about not knowing what dish soap to get, he couldn't find the kind that he needed. And I thought, maybe, you know, he just, he had just lost his wife, yeah, and she always used a particular soap, and he couldn't find it, and that was what put him over. Maybe he's a full time caregiver for a family member, you know, maybe a white, I don't know, Alzheimer's, what have you. Maybe he was just coming off of a very long illness, and he's on his own, a widower, whatever, because he was, he was late 80s, at least, and looked very, very, very tired. And my heart just hurt. My heart just hurt for him. And I thought, You know what, he might have been yelling and swearing at me, and that is perfectly okay, but I'm going to sit here and pray for him. I'm going to pray for peace and for grace to just envelope him, you know, just be covered in it, and maybe when he wakes up tomorrow and he goes to grab all that stuff from the hallway table and put back in his pocket, he'll look down and see that yeah, and maybe then it'll be like, oh, you know. Or maybe, maybe not. Maybe it would be a week, maybe a month, whatever. But I firmly believe in my heart that at some point he was going to see that, and it would   Michael Hingson ** 47:24 click, and you haven't seen him since, I assume, no, it's   Kim Lengling ** 47:27 total stranger. I don't know these people, you know. And there was one time I have these, I got little cards made too, because, well, these stones are pretty expensive, actually. So I got little cards made too, just tiny, little square cards, and it says, share a nugget of hope today. And on the back, it says, The world is a better place because you're in it. And I had some of those because I had forgotten to put stones in my pocket, and I had a couple of those cards in my purse. And I was in a store just picking, you know, doing errands, and I was walking by some sweaters, and I thought, I'm going to put one of these little cards in a pocket of that sweater and just put it in. Didn't think anything of it. Several days later, I got a message through Facebook from a young lady saying, I don't know if this is the person who left a card in a sweater, but if you are, I want to thank you for leaving this little nugget of hope in that sweater, because I've been struggling with my weight for a very long time, and I had an event to attend, and I was looking for a sweater that would help make me feel better. And she didn't notice that that little card that said, be a nugget of hope today, the world's a better place because you're in it. She didn't notice it until she was home putting the sweater on again to try it on in front of her mirror. And she said, if that was if the person that I'm reaching right now is the person who left that card, I want to thank you for doing that, and I also want to let you know I'm going to keep this card, and when I feel so LED. I'm going to tuck it into a pocket somewhere in a store too, and hopefully someone else will get it, and they will, they will receive it as as I received mine. And I was just like, Oh my goodness.   Michael Hingson ** 49:12 You know, ever since thunder dog was published, I get emails. They're they're sporadic somewhat, but I get emails from people who have said how this book inspired or how I learned so much. And you know, as far as I am concerned, I am better for all of the comments that I get. I learned from everyone who decides to reach out in one way or another, and I encounter people in very, very unusual circumstances. I was in Dallas Fort Worth airport one day, and this guy comes up to me, and he said, You're Mike Kingston. You just wrote thunder dog, and I want to shake your hand, and I want to take you to lunch. And I had time. So. Did go to lunch and I and I never had met the guy before, but he had read thunder dog, and it obviously made a difference to him. So I think, as I said, every time I hear from someone, I believe it makes me a better person. It teaches me that when we put out words or seeds in the field, or whatever you want to call it, that you never know where they're going to plant and thrive. But if that's what I'm supposed to do, then I'm glad I'm doing it.   Kim Lengling ** 50:36 I feel exactly the same, and I like how you said you were it you said each, each comment that you get makes, makes you a better person, and that that's so profound, and it's, it's humbling, isn't it? When you get comments like that, or people approach you and say something that, you know, it was inspiring, or that motivated me, or, you know, wow, that's something I really needed. I mean, it's, it's very for me anyway, it's very humbling. I had an older lady. I was helping her put her groceries in her car. It's just, I just randomly saw her, you know, struggling, and I had a nugget of hope in my hand too, of course. So I went up and I, you know, said, I'd like to give you a nugget of hope, and I'd also like to help you put your groceries in your car. And we got done doing that, and she looked down at the nugget of hope in her hand, and she got all teary eyed, and gave me a big hug, and she said, You are my absolute angel today. You have no idea how much I needed this. And I went, I'm so grateful that, that you're the one that's receiving this, and that you you know that, that you need it. She goes, but I said, but I am no angel. I am no angel. And she said, she's, you know, she just kind of chuckled, and, you know, said, No, you have, you just have no idea. You have no idea what this means to me today. And I didn't ask, because it's none of my business, yeah, you know, I just, I wished her a blessed day, and I went back to my car, and I sat there, and I sat there, and there was another time I actually cried. I was like, oh my goodness, this is what I think I'm, you know, I'm supposed to be doing this random stuff. And it's not random, obviously, but I don't know it's, it's profound, and it hits you, and I'm sure that that's, yeah, probably your book has probably done the same. Your book is a nugget of hope. You know, to many people, I'm sure,   Michael Hingson ** 52:22 I hope it is. I didn't, I didn't write it to do anything other than to try to encourage people and motivate people and teach people a little bit. And I guess it's done all of those things. So I can't complain.   Kim Lengling ** 52:34 No, it's awesome. It's great. And what a beautiful What a beautiful legacy, you know, because that's always going to be out there. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 52:43 Well, you wrote a New Britain or been the lead on a number of anthologies. And I think three of your books are in the series. When Grace found me, tell me about that series. Those   Kim Lengling ** 52:53 started that was in 2020, actually, when the world shut down. Yes, and I was online, and I found an online writers group. It was all women, and the majority of them were from England. And so I was like, the minority being the American. And I met a beautiful lady online, and she had just started up a faith based publishing company. And so her and I were like, hey, you know, let's chat afterwards. And so we set up a zoom and chatted afterwards for a while. And I said, you know, I've had this idea. I've got a few stories in my head, but I would love to get other people's stories. You know about, you know, when Grace found them, and we were just chatting about grace, and she said, Well, let's figure out how to make this work. And so her and I actually start to together. Started those when Grace found me series, and we asked a few people, and then it kind of snowballed, because it was just going to be one, just going to be one book, 20 people done, once it reached 20, and we're like, oh, this, you know, we've got enough for a book. They're 1500 words each. The stories, they're beautiful. Let's do it. But then word of mouth got out somehow, online, and people kept coming forward. Well, I would like to participate, and I have a story, and it turned in. It went from one book to three books, and 2020, co authors in each book. And we, we published all of those within 12 months. Wow. It was so much work, so much work. But those, those stories, oh, my goodness, the the comments that we got after they were out, you know? And she, she's just started her little, tiny, little publishing company, and it was just, it was just amazing. What an amazing experience. And then I, you know, two years ago, I and I truly enjoy bringing folks together to share their stories, and I enjoy, you know, collaborating and coordinating all of these. And. And so the the last two have been paw prints on the couch and paw prints on the kitchen floor. And those are anthologies all about pets. You know, people are sharing their their stories about their pets and how they've enriched their lives or changed their lives or saved their lives, you know? And it's, it's just rewarding to me, and it's also fun to give folks that maybe have never written before, that chance to say I'm published in a book, you know? Because that's pretty exciting stuff for folks. And some folks are like, I've never aspired to be a writer, and I don't want to be, but I do want to share my story in this book. Yeah, you know. So it's been fun, and oh my goodness, I learned, I learned how to publish. You know, like I said, I like to learn. So I've learned so much about publishing and formatting and how to corral all the people that are involved in the book.   Michael Hingson ** 55:57 Have you? Have you converted any of them to audiobooks,   Kim Lengling ** 56:00 no, and I need to do that. I just don't have the funds to do that at this time. That's that's not something that's cheap, and I'm not set up to do it myself. I don't have the right I have the equipment, but I don't think it would be the quality that I want it to be if I did it myself, and I just don't have the funds to do that, and I would, I would love to do it for the paw prints books, both of them, for sure. And I'm considering do, because everybody's going, you have to, when's the third one coming out? And I said I wasn't really planning on and they're going, you have two, you have to do at least three, and then make it a series. So I was actually talking to a couple people today about it, and they're encouraging me to do a third one. So I probably will, you know, so that would come out next year sometime. But I don't know. I would like to, I would like to get audio books of all of them. I just have to reach a point where I'm able to do that and make it what's professionally done.   Michael Hingson ** 57:03 Yeah, yeah. AI is getting better, but I'm not sure that it's really there yet for doing recording of audio books, unless you've got a whole lot of equipment and can do various   Kim Lengling ** 57:15 things. I've played around listening to some of the different voices and stuff, and the inflect, the inflection just isn't there, yeah, I know, yeah. Some of them sound pretty good, but you don't get the correct pauses. And you know, you know what I mean. It just, you can tell, it's like, oh, that sounds pretty good. And then you're like, Ah, no, right there, nope, that just blew it.   Michael Hingson ** 57:38 Yeah? I I agree, and I fully understand. Well, so you've written non fiction? Is there a fiction book in your future?   Kim Lengling ** 57:47 I have one in my head, and it's been in there for several years, and it's been getting louder so and I've talked to other fiction writers, and they're going, okay, when you've got characters in your head and they're getting louder. That means you are supposed to be writing this book. Yeah. So this year, and we're almost done with this year, it the characters, and it's kind of kind of fantasy, kind of ish, young adult ish. I don't even know what it is yet, but I've got the characters in my head. I know what they look like. I know what they sound like. And, you know, there's wood sprites are involved, you know, wood sprites and animals are involved, heavily involved. They are the main characters of the story. So, yeah, I every once in a while, I sit down and I'll write, you know, maybe four or 500 words of it, and then I walk away. But I want to, they're getting louder. The characters are getting louder, so I need to sit down and just go, Kim,   Michael Hingson ** 58:50 let's get going. No, that's not why it's going to work. What's I know you're going to sit down and they're going to say, Kim, we're writing this book, right? Most characters are going to write the book   Kim Lengling ** 58:59 right. They're going to tell me what they're doing and what they're saying, that's for sure. And   Michael Hingson ** 59:03 you're in, you're going to do it, or they're going to get even louder,   Kim Lengling ** 59:08 you know? And it's, it's so interesting because I remember the first time I was talking to a fiction author, and they said my characters got so loud in my head, I didn't quite grasp what they were saying, but I found it fascinating, and now I understand what they were saying, yeah,   59:26 yeah. And   Kim Lengling ** 59:27 I joking, you know, I laugh. It's not joking. I laugh about it because they're like, Well, what? What do you have one character that's louder than the others? I said, Yes, and it's a female, and she's Irish,   Michael Hingson ** 59:38 there you are. So she's   59:39 yelling in her Irish accent.   Michael Hingson ** 59:42 You better listen, I haven't had that happen to me yet, so I haven't done a fiction book, but I'm sure the time is going to come and and we'll, we'll have fun with it. But when   Kim Lengling ** 59:55 it's I did, I wasn't expecting it to happen. It just it's there. There it   Michael Hingson ** 59:59 is. It. Exactly right, and that's been the case with with everything that I've done, especially over the past 23 years. And you know, I think it will happen more. I never thought I was going to be doing a podcast, but when the pandemic occurred, I started to learn about it, and then began working with accessibe, which is a company that makes products that help make the internet more inclusive and accessible for people with a lot of disabilities, and they asked me to do a podcast because I said I was learning about podcasting, and suddenly I've been doing unstoppable mindset now for over three years, and it's a lot of fun.   Kim Lengling ** 1:00:33 But you know, that's how my podcast started. Was in 2020 Yeah, we have an awful lot in common. Michael, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:44 well, we should collaborate on books, then that'll be the next thing.   Kim Lengling ** 1:00:48 Absolutely, I am open for that works for me. Awesome. You tell me when and where, and we'll I'll sit down and chat. We can brainstorm about it.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:57 I'm ready any old time. Me too. And there you have it, friends, the beginning of a new relationship, and another book that will come out of it. And you heard it here first, on unstoppable mindset, that's right, it's now thrown out there. It is out there for the world to to see and hear. Well, I want to really thank you for being with us. We've been doing this an hour, and it's just has gone by, like priest lightning, and now we have next week on on your podcast, and that's going to be kind of fun.   1:01:27 Yeah, I'm looking forward to it really   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:31 me too, and, and I'm sure that Alamo is going to want to listen in over here. He's He's over here on his bed, and he if I close the door when I always close the door when I do the podcast, because otherwise the cat will invade and stitch wants attention when she wants attention. But if I close the door and Alamo is not in here, then he wants attention, or at least he wants in. So I always have to let Alamo in, but stitch doesn't need to be here. I've done one podcast where she sat on the top of my desk chair during the whole podcast,   Kim Lengling ** 1:02:07 I've had guests where their cat, they said, Do you mind? I said, No, I don't mind. I love animals. Their cat the entire time was walking across the desk in front of them the whole time. So the tail the entire time was just going back and forth. It was so comical. But then, you know, you're just like, We're just two people sitting at a kitchen table having coffee. That's how I like. That's   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:28 right. Well, stitch will come in occasionally, and if I let her, if I bring her in and I put her on the back of the desk chair, she'll stay there. And so she likes that. If she gets restless, then I've told her, You can't be too restless and you can't one out in the middle of a podcast. You're either here or you're not. Mostly she's agreeable. I want to thank you again for being here. This has been fun, and one of these days, we'll get out to Pennsylvania and visit. Or you can come out this way somehow. But I want to thank you for being here. If people want to reach out to you, how do they do that?   Speaker 1 ** 1:03:08 Easiest way is to just go to my website, which is my name, Kim Lengling, author.com, that's K, I M, L, E N, G, l, I N, G. Author.com, you can find out what I'm doing

I have never had the pleasure of having a guest quite like Michele Blood. While still living in Australia Michele was an extremely successful rock singer. One day she was involved in a serious accident while being driven to a gig. Her body was, as she says, quite battered and damaged. What is fascinating about Michele's story is how she discovered the value of positive affirmations that she used to heal everything. As she will tell us, it is not just saying affirmations, but rather it is truly believing what you affirm. Her music became an integral of what healed her.   Since her recovery Michele has traveled the world singing and speaking on stage with many well-known motivational and thought leaders. I leave it to her to tell the story.   During our episode Michele will sing one of her affirmation songs. I hope you are as moved by the song in specific and by Michele's attitude and mindset in general. She teaches us a lot that can have nothing but positives effects on your life.   I look forward to hearing what you have to say about my time with Michele. Don't forget to get her free gifts available only to listeners of the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Is that cool or what?       About the Guest:   Michele Blood is a successful, multi-talented lady. Michele was a successful songwriter and rock singer in Australia and after a near-fatal car accident, while in the hospital with many serious injuries, she created positive Affirmation Songs which not only healed her body but also took her to worldwide success. These Affirmation songs affect the left and right hemispheres of the brain. Lyrics, the left hemisphere, and melody and music, the right hemisphere so the new, positive messages go straight to the subconscious mind. This is why millions of people worldwide have downloaded her Affirmation Power songs. These songs cover healing, success, money, joy, confidence and they uplift the person immediately.   In addition to creating Magnet To Success™ products and seminars worldwide, her public Mystical Success Events have been held in over 26 countries. Michele has co-written and created over 80 books, music CDs, audio programs, TV shows, and videos on positive thought, mind transformation, and meditation.   Michele has appeared in many hundreds of podcasts, radio/tv shows, and magazines globally. After many years of meditation, Michele's Kundalini awakened and transformed her consciousness. Michele now teaches others how to live a Successful Life and experience Divine Oneness. Her Mystical Experience webinars and live streams have assisted people globally to transform their lives to the positive. Through her Teachings and Light Transmissions, people awaken and experience what they say is the impossible. They awaken to their true purpose and begin their path to Enlightenment. She has shared the stage and worked with Bob Proctor, Dr. Deepak Chopra, Dr. Wayne Dyer, Jack Canfield, and many other transformational Authors and Teachers. Her latest book is The Magic Of Affirmation Power and her latest album is Create Miracles: Positive Affirmation Songs To Harmonize your Mind and Life. And her new Magnet To Money App will uplift millions worldwide.   Ways to connect with Michele:   https://www.MicheleBlood.com and https://www.YouTube.com/MicheleBlood   Michele would also love to gift your viewers and listeners her audiobook, "The Magic Of Affirmation Power" Your audience can download this free gift by going to: https://www.MicheleBlood.com/UnstoppableMindset   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected, which is really the most fun part, meet today. We are getting close to winter, and I was just telling our guest Michele Blood that here in Victorville, we had a temperature this morning of 28 degrees. Ah, lovely weather, and all the weather people complain about now it's getting cold in the summer, they complained it was getting hot. You know, you can't please them. I don't know what to say. But anyway, one of these days they'll, they'll decide that whatever happens is is not a bad thing, and they'll stop complaining, I guess. But any Yeah. But anyway, Michele, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Thank you.   Michele Blood ** 02:06 Michael, I've been so looking forward to this. After reading thunder dog, I'm going to be reading the second book, which is live like a guide dog. I'm going to be reading that after that, I absolutely adore this book, which I'm showing right now, Thunder dog. It's the most inspirational you can't put down. I mean, the lot not just getting down 78 floors of the Twin Towers, 78 stairs. I mean, oh my gosh. But then everything that you've done in between working with you know Ray Kurzweil, who's done a lot of things in the music industry as well. I mean, I mean, I recognized his name straight away. I'm like, all the all the things you've done. I'm just so impressed by and by your life and how inspiring you are. And I just wanted to say that to everybody, he's just, you gotta get his thunder dog book if you haven't yet, and his new book, live like a guide dog, for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 03:02 I I don't know. I haven't totally kept up, but I haven't heard that anybody has yet come out with a music synthesizer that is better than the Kurzweil synthesizer. Now, a lot has happened, and maybe technology has advanced, but I hadn't heard about anything that still beats it.   Michele Blood ** 03:20 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the fair light was pretty amazing when that first came out, but the Kurzweil, I mean, all any rock musician knows about, yeah, when, when that was first put out, we were just like, oh my gosh, that's amazing, you know, because you could sample sounds and, you know, it was just   Michael Hingson ** 03:39 incredible, and it had a choir built into it. Yeah? Daylight though   Michele Blood ** 03:43 that was, I don't know, think back back in the day, it was like 100 grand, so that's probably why it wasn't as popular. Yeah,   03:51 a little more   Michael Hingson ** 03:52 expensive than the Kurzweil one. Yeah, yeah, our organist at our church where my wife and I went in Irvine and where we got married, our organist had a Kurzweil synthesizer and used it a lot, which was, which was kind of fun, and it was, it was very and it is very impressive all the way around, yeah, but   Michele Blood ** 04:13 just the innovative things that have been done, and you're helping ray with all of the things for the blind as well. Working with Stevie Wonder. I mean, it's just, you're very impressive. You're an inspiration. You are, you are absolutely amazing.   Michael Hingson ** 04:28 Well, thank you. But now let's talk about you a little bit. And you know, you can, you can.   04:35 I didn't show them the cover yet. You can   Michael Hingson ** 04:38 spread any rusty live like a guide dog. Live   04:42 like a guide dog. Needs to cover everybody   Michael Hingson ** 04:45 well, I hope people will get it. I'm we're excited about it. It's been out now a few months. It seems to be selling. We're excited. So hopefully people will read it, and it inspires people a little bit, because it's all about. Are trying to get people to learn to control fear and not let it overwhelm or, as I put it, blind you. But anyway, tell us a little bit about you. Why don't you start with the the early Michele, growing up, and some of those kinds of things, just kind of introduce us to you a little bit.   Michele Blood ** 05:16 Well, I'm an Aussie G'day, everyone. G'day, and, in Australia, I started in the entertainment industry at the age of five, on TV. What   Michael Hingson ** 05:27 did you do? Singing? Oh, okay,   Michele Blood ** 05:31 you know. And then eventually got my, you know, had lots and lots of rock bands I sang in, until eventually I got my own rock band that became very successful. I was the lead singer, one of the main songwriters and the manager of the band. We got a great record label. We had 1000s of people coming to our gigs, and it took years to get there, but I loved it so much, even though it's very, very tough at one stage, we toured for seven years, non stop. I mean, no Christmases, no New Year's eves, because when you're in a rock band, you get paid triple on New Year's Eves and Christmases and stuff like that. Yeah, and you can't really say no until you're really huge. You can't really say no to any gig, because you need the money road crew and sound equipment trucks and all the rest of it so but I feel that my life went on a whole new trajectory after a near fatal truck accident, actually, where I was a passenger with the truck, with all the equipment, and my body was so badly broken, I was In the hospital for months and months and months and and that was the best thing that ever happened to me. I know that sounds crazy everybody, but truly, when you have something so terrible happen to you, and it gets turned around by the Divine, whatever you choose to call God, it gets your life gets turned around and it makes all the difference in the world. So that's the first quarter.   Michael Hingson ** 07:08 Well, you know, I'm really curious. You said something that just strikes a question. I know that a lot of people try to go into entertainment, and most probably aren't overly successful. But why do you think that you were so successful? What what made the rock group and and what you did so successful? Do you have a notion? Well,   Michele Blood ** 07:30 I loved what I did. I was very, very good at it. And not everyone that's good at it's probably other singers in the world that are better than me. But the reason, I think because, I mean, I had some backing vocals on some records, and these female singers were incredible. And one of them said, I know you've got a good voice, Michelle, but I don't know why it's you and not me. And I said, I think it's just that I never gave up, and I was really disciplined. And I, you know, I wasn't on the road of sex, drugs and rock and roll. I was on the road of discipline, making sure that all my band members were disciplined. We worked really, really hard. We rehearsed a lot. We never blew out a gig, not once. So you get a good reputation. And so I started as a cover band, and we would sound just like the records at the time of the 80s. You know, people said that was a band. It sounded like a record. And so then we, we eventually started putting all our originals in and, I mean, I did crazy things, Michael, I went into Time Warner to the A and R people, because I wasn't getting any feedback. It's really hard. You can't just send them a tape to get you know for them to listen to your demos. So I went in as a tap dancing singing telegram. And so the secretary let me go straight into the office, and it was a board meeting, and because she thought, you know, their family had so I was there with flowers and a cake and my ghetto blaster, and I said, Then I did a tap dance, and I made up this song about, you know, this is, this is the band called clapping hands. You're going to sign them, you're going to want them. And this is a singing telegram saying, Listen to this. And that's how I got my first record deal.   Michael Hingson ** 09:24 Creativity counts for something. It   Michele Blood ** 09:25 sure does. You've gotta have guts. And I mean, I by the time I walked out of that office, though I was sweating, I was shaking, but you have to do something to be noticed. And and I think because I love people so much, and because I'd been singing professionally since I was five, which means I was singing for family members and everyone since I was two, apparently getting being put on the kitchen table. And I loved people being happy, and I love loved entertaining. I just loved it. So I think, you know, it's in the stars as. Well, I know that, but I think discipline, hard work eventually never giving up. Yeah, what can I say? Never giving up.   Michael Hingson ** 10:08 Did you so you were a cover band for for a while, which meant you were the the opening band for other groups,   Michele Blood ** 10:17 not as a cover band, well, with the opening act for the pretenders and in excess and a few other bands, when we were an original band and when we had a record label, right, when we had videos on TV, but before that, now we do five to 645, minute sets a night, and we would stay at one big venue, because in back in the day in Australia, the venues were huge for cover bands. You know, four to 6000 people could come in, and we got, we got very, very popular as a cover band, and then we went original. But it took a few years to do that, for sure, but   Michael Hingson ** 10:55 I remember, I remember bands back in the 50s and 60s, like the platters, who actually were the opening band, or they were the band that were the background for other singers. And then somebody discovered these guys really are better than that, and then they became their own group, right?   Michele Blood ** 11:14 Yeah, yeah. It's interesting how, how it all works out. But in Australia, it's, it's a tough way to tour when you're a female singer, because the Aussies are pretty tough. If they don't like you, you can get B canes thrown at you.   Michael Hingson ** 11:32 Yeah, well, those kinds of things do happen. Yes, they did in Boston for for sports teams. I've heard of fans really being very brutal to like the the Patriots. I think when Steve Grogan was the quarterback, they actually booed him off the field once. It was pretty amazing. I don't know. You know that's people take some of these things way too seriously. They   Michele Blood ** 12:00 certainly do. I like what Oscar Wilde said, Life is too serious to be taken seriously. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:09 yeah, absolutely, and, but people still do it way too much. Which is, which is, which is a problem. Yes, you know, we need people to take life more like Mark Twain and Will Rogers, by all means, but I can co so you, you had a serious car accident, and as you said, It really broke your body. Tell us what you'd like to about that and and then how you dealt with it, because that, that was quite a, I won't say miraculous. That was quite a marvel. You. You certainly took a leap along the way with that.   Michele Blood ** 12:50 Yeah, it's such a unique story. Um, after you know the truck driver we've been driving for 12 hours from Brisbane to Sydney, from gig to keep and he fell asleep at the wheel just as we reached Sydney, which happened to be right across the road from the best orthopedic specialist hospital in Sydney. So thank you, God, you know. Yeah, there's no coincidences. There's no accidents. So they got me over there really fast, and they had me straight into the operating theater straight away. So, I mean, I had tons of different operations, but what happened was, when you're in physics, that much physical agony, you pass out every few minutes. Mm, hmm, and, but I had people and fans and family putting on audio programs of things I'd never heard of before, Affirmations, Visualization, positive stuff, audio books by motivational speakers, inspirational speakers who I'd never heard of, but one of them got to me, and that was a book by a man called Napoleon Hill who wrote a book called Think and Grow Rich. Grow Rich, right? And I didn't care about hearing about all the millionaires in the 1920s in America, male men. Why would a female, young Australian rock singer care about that? But one chapter in there, he talks about how his infant son was born deaf, and he would go into his infant son's room every single night and do affirmations, auto suggestion, you hear perfectly. You are so loved, and you are so loving, etc, etc. And by the time a little boy was nearly four, he had 30% of his hearing. And you know when you hear something, I've never heard of this before, Michael, but you know when you hear something for the first time and you can feel it that it's true. You've just heard something that you know in the marrow of your bones that that what you've just heard is true. So I said, Okay, I can, I can run. Relate to that, because I know that I've used my willpower and my positive thinking, My I've never said I can't do something, I can't have that drama that I want. I've never said that. I've always said it's all possible. Everything is possible. You just go for it. Michelle, and I'd always just go for it. And I was brought up a Catholic, and I wasn't brought up. I wasn't one of those people that hated the church. I loved it. So I always had a belief in God, because I used to go to mass as a little girl every morning with the nuns, because I was in love with Jesus, and I just felt so I had that spirituality in me, and I think that is what is the backbone. You know, in the Bible, it says you do not need to be strong, because Christ is my strength. Christ is your strength. And so now I know that there is so much more to spirituality than just Jesus, but it was a great start for my faith in my life, and it gave me happiness. And so I just had faith that this would work, so I started doing affirmations, but they didn't work. Michael, do you want to know why? Sure, yeah, we've got nothing else to do today, right? May as well. Hear about it well, because neuroscience has proven now that affirmations do work and they do positive thinking actually does make a difference in the brain, in the neural pathways. It does make a difference. It ignites something in different parts of the brain. But back then, in the 80s, there was no way to prove that, you know, let alone Napoleon Hill in the 1920s but the thing that he said was most important is, you have to believe it. You have to emotionalize it. But I couldn't, Michael, I couldn't emotionalize it because I would. I started an affirmation, I am healed. I know I am. I love myself. I am my friend. Now, none of those things were true, so I thought, but I did want them to be true, so I thought, great, I've got the perfect affirmation. But when you are feeling like you're feeling and the world around you is presenting the opposite of what you're saying. Your doubting mind spits it out and does not believe it. So about two, three weeks after stopping the affirmations, because I realized that didn't work, I literally had a spiritual epiphany, and it was, you know, as a songwriter, Michelle, you can't get a song out of your head, even if it's songs you don't like or jingles from advertising agencies. So sing your affirmations. Because I got my brother to look around for affirmation songs, and he said, there isn't any such thing. And so I started singing,   Speaker 1 ** 17:58 I am healed. I know I am I love myself. I am my friend. And   Michele Blood ** 18:05 I recorded it onto a cassette player, just a cappella over and over again. And that was the beginning. As I listened to that all day, every day I would I started feeling better. I started getting back to my attitude, that I can, I can heal it just I realized. And when I was working with Bob Proctor, he said, you know why that works so well? He said, It's because the left side of the brain is where the lyrics are, the affirmation, the right side the melody. And this is even before I started recording it with music, and so you have a whole brain experience. And the song, the doubting mind doesn't have a chance to reject it. It goes straight into your subconscious mind. So that's how my positive affirmation pop music began. I didn't stop doing my other music, but I did have what they said, even the doctors, even though they're not supposed to say it, they said my healing was miraculous, and I ended up on TV shows and in the press and everything about what I'd been through for inspiration. And that's how it all began.   Michael Hingson ** 19:16 It. It really is all about believing it. It's it is so easy just to say something, but without truly accepting it, without truly making it a part of your psyche. However you do that it, it doesn't mean a thing. Don't   Michele Blood ** 19:32 mean a thing if it ain't something. Yeah, you do have to laugh. Do up, do up, do   Michele Blood ** 19:43 Yeah, music makes the world go around. It does,   Michael Hingson ** 19:48 and it's so important to take it seriously enough that you truly do believe it, and that's what's so important. And clearly. What you did? So what happened you you got healed completely, I would assume from all that had happened,   Michele Blood ** 20:10 yeah, I mean, it's still it still took quite a while, but I was determined. I put my high shoes back on, even though they said, don't wear high shoes. And I never intended for the affirmation music to go out to the public. My one of the band members that I work with and wrote songs with John Beatty, Hi John. He he's in person now in Australia with millions of kids, but anyway, we won't help me. Listens, yeah, we went into the recording studio and we, we just started recording. I was writing a lot of songs, and we started recording tons of different affirmation songs in all different styles of you know, from R and B to just rock to ballads to depending on what the song was about, whether it was about, you know, divine love, more of a ballad, more of a some of them just more rock and roll about being successful. And when the press found out that I was actually doing that, then promoters that were bringing out American very, very big, best selling authors asked me to come and do my singing affirmations in between these people. And I said, No, I don't want to do that. I'm not doing it for the public. Was just for me, my band, to have these positive thoughts. And they said, No, we love it. We love it. We want you to do it. And so my very first gig, I'm in Adelaide, Australia, and there's three and a half 1000 people on a Wednesday that came to this gig that paid over $300 each for a ticket, which I thought was absolutely insane. I didn't know what was going on. And I sang, and got all the people up on stage singing the affirmation songs with me made it into like a mini rock concert. And then Deepak Chopra, this, who I'd never heard of, never met before. Wayne Dyer, who I'd never heard of, never met before. Tony Alessandra, Stuart, wild, they were the speakers, and they couldn't believe it when we went out to dinner that night that I've never heard of any of them. And I said, I'm in rock and roll. I'm not in the motivational world. You know, I've, I've never heard of you, because I've not in that world. And so they were interested in how it all began, and they all said, You've got to tour this around the world. You've got to you've got to release these that we love. What you're doing. The audience is so different. Bob Proctor, though he was the one, when I ended up working with him, the promoters said, you know, we've got this female Australian singer, and you're going to be touring with her? And he said, No, I don't want a female singer. I'm Bob Proctor. I don't need that anyway. The first gig I did with him in Sydney, he came out after, and he said, I didn't want to work with a singer. And I said, good to meet you too, mate. I Yes, how are you? And he said, but no, all kidding aside. He said, My wife and I, Linda, we loved it so much, and I want you to work with me all over the world, doing events. So eventually I end up working with Bob for seven years straight. We wrote books together. We wrote music together. We put on huge events. I took over his business, looked after it, and from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, where I lived, and then, and it was just very, very interesting. I've worked in over 26 countries, huge, huge audiences. The biggest one I had was 50,000 people. So to say it was successful is an understatement, but I didn't plan it. I didn't visualize it, but I had always planned on being very well known singer, but it but not to be a positive affirmation or singer. I'd never thought of that, but eventually I went off the grid and started really getting into deep meditation practice and getting off the that whole circuit, because I wanted to find God within me. So that was what happened. And it was fascinating, because it's like working with all these, you know, rock musicians, male rock musicians, and then working with all these male best selling authors. I'm like, I'm always surrounded by the boys.   Michael Hingson ** 24:46 Hey, whatever works, it's, it's interesting though, that that you, you did so much of this, I gather that the audience is reacted very positively, though. Um. Have you heard from anyone that it really changed their life to have encountered you and heard you when you performed? Oh,   Michele Blood ** 25:10 yeah, we've had millions. I mean, we've got a lot of our video video testimonials and testimonials from not just best selling authors that I've worked with, but also from people from all over the world. I work with people in over 32 countries now, and some of them don't even speak English, but they still feel the vibration. And a lot of different people have started singing my songs in different languages, which I allow anyone to do. They don't have to pay me a royalty. They can just do it whatever brings positivity to the world and change within someone, so that they can get out of that rabbit hole. Because you're, you know, your whole podcast about unstoppable mindset. Well, this is such a a great new beginning is to just have to listen to a song. Yeah? And, you know, there's so I've got hundreds of songs to choose from, so it's a good it's a good way to start, because music, you know, like I always say to people, if you have the blues, even though I like blues and I think it's brilliant, but if you have the blues, probably best not to listen to the blues. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 26:21 definitely, definitely true. Well, of course, one has to ask if, if you have one, not necessarily long, but that you want to sing for us all.   Michele Blood ** 26:38 Yeah, I can. I didn't have anything set up. But if you'd like to chat for a minute, I'll just get something set up for you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 26:45 okay, we can, we can do that. I do. I do agree with you that if you've got the blues, you don't want to listen to the blues. I I personally like happy stuff. I like musicals, especially when they're they're happy musicals. I've always enjoyed that. I do listen and read science fiction and sometimes read some some pretty horrific things. But I've noticed later in my life I'm doing less of that because I, although I like mysteries, I don't like nowadays really graphical or very graphic murder mysteries and things like that, and so people call the kinds of things that I probably typically like cozy mysteries. I wouldn't say that Rex Stout books about neural wolf the private detective are necessarily cozy, but by the same token, they're not the most graphic things, and I've always enjoyed them because they're puzzles. And I love mysteries that are really puzzles that I can become engaged in and try to solve, and musicals I like just because they're fun and and they're they're very happy for the most part. And so again, they're, they're very relevant to to want to listen to. So I, I tend to do that. So it's a lot of fun to keep in the the spirit of reasonably happy and stay away from the blues. Okay,   Michele Blood ** 28:17 I've got something set up now, alright, saying low battery, but oh, sorry. What happened there? There it is. There it is. This song is called synergy. I wrote it with Bob Proctor. Can you hear the music?   Michael Hingson ** 28:35 It's a little low, but yes, go ahead. Better. Yep,   Speaker 1 ** 28:40 there's a way to get it moving, to make it happen, to get high. Can barely flooded in the clouds, join thoughts and let them fly. When your mind joins in with others and all your thoughts to one a US. Energy begins to sizzle and it's energy positive energy synergy. It's energy, hot energy, positive energy turn into synergy. Together, creative power will start to flow. Things begin to happen. You're a church with Synergy. Red Hot energy, positive energy grows into synergy. It's energy, hot energy, positive energy grows into synergy.   Michele Blood ** 29:55 You shine and become magnetic, you'll draw the good. People out the world will be a better place, and everyone will start to shout, face to face, building   Speaker 2 ** 30:12 energy. Taste. The taste is this energy, thoughts, launching into one, a new boss have become this is synergy.   Speaker 1 ** 30:23 It's synergy, red hot energy, positive energy, delta, synergy, it's synergy.   Michael Hingson ** 30:34 There you go. Now   30:36 that's Bob Proctor. Wrote the lyrics for that.   Michael Hingson ** 30:41 But, um, who was the male voice near the end? Oh, the   Michele Blood ** 30:44 male voice was a American guy in who was singing covers in Kuala Lumpur when I lived there, Ah, okay, and I just hired him to come and and do that in the studio in Kuala Lumpur, yeah. But the other affirmation songs are more simple, but they're still got, you know, like a good dance beat, some of them are ballads greeting the day with love in your heart. It just depends on where you want to take your mind that day. Do you want to open your heart? Do you want to be like listen to the persistent song. Do you want to feel more successful? You listen to the success song, which is like 50s, rock and roll. So they're all different. They're all different product, production. So it was a lot of fun changing the different styles for each song depending on the lyrics.   Michael Hingson ** 31:34 Well, if people want to get those affirmation songs and so on, are they available for people to get? Yeah,   Michele Blood ** 31:41 all my albums are sold all over the world, and iTunes, of course, Amazon. My own website is magnet to success. Com. My YouTube channel is Michelle blood.com forward slash YouTube. But I've got lovely giveaways for your for your audience, if you'd like me to share that. Well, we will   Michael Hingson ** 32:03 do that a little bit, okay, but I really appreciate you seeing synergy. I will be, I will be saying that to myself the rest of the day, which is fine, but you know, you mentioned the blues and so on. So here's a question, if somebody is really down and really frustrated, how can they change their life to the positive?   Michele Blood ** 32:31 Well, first of all, even if they are really down, you've got to know, no matter what is going on in your life, that everything is possible for you, and that you can get out of that rabbit hole, and that you are you might feel alone, but you're never alone. Whether you believe in God or you don't believe in God, there is a God and you are looked after. You can pray without begging just giving. One of the most wonderful things you can do is just to start to write down what you're thankful for immediately. If you can say thank you divine, or just thank you for my beautiful life, and if then you can begin to write down what a beautiful life would look like for you, just start writing it down, even though it's not true yet. Like, let's start thinking about what can be done. What do you what sort of friends do you want? What sort of lifestyle do you want? You know, start thinking of others as well. Whenever we can do something, if we can do something every single day that makes somebody else happy, whether it's feeding the homeless or sending funny kitten videos to your friends. You if you can do something every day that brings happiness to somebody else or takes them out of suffering, well, then it'll take you out of yourself. Because if, if it's something emotional that you're going through, that means that you're going to sometimes we do need to go through the emotion, particularly if we're mourning the loss of something or someone that's important and healthy. But it is also important to stop thinking about ourselves so much and look at what can be done for the world. I love I love Saint Vincent de Paul. I love the Salvation Army so much, so you can tithe to them anonymously. If you want to do something you don't know what to do, even if it's just a buck, five bucks, it's really good to tithe to charities that are doing good in the world. And I'm sure there's a charity that you could recommend to us, Michael, that will help with the blind. If you got one, you can recommend?   Michael Hingson ** 34:43 Well, I think there, there really are a number of of places to donate. One of my favorites is the National Federation of the Blind, nfb.org, because it's, it's a consumer organization that fights for the rights of. Of blind people around the United States and actually around the world. And it's the NFB is the largest consumer organization of blind people in this country and, in fact, in the world. But it has made such a difference in the lives of blind people. For example, through the National Federation of blind we completely changed the life insurance industry that refused to provide life insurance for any blind person up until the mid 1980s and when it was finally discovered that they were denying us, not because they had any evidence and actual mathematical models that proved that we were a risk, which is what they're supposed to do. They were doing it strictly out of prejudice. And so now every state in the union, because of the Federation, has actually passed legislation that says you can't discriminate unless you've got real evidence. Well, it's been 40 years, and nobody's come up with evidence that we're a higher risk simply because we're blind or other persons with disabilities, their disabilities directly make them a higher risk. So, you know, that's that's definitely one of my favorite organizations to support. And   Michele Blood ** 36:13 nfb.org everybody. Nfb.org I've written it down for me to start tithing there as well. And,   Michael Hingson ** 36:20 you know, and there, there are so many others. Another organization that I tend to like, it's a very small organization, is advocates for service animal partners asap.org, and and it fights for the rights of people with a variety of disabilities who use service animals, service dogs, to be able to take their dogs with them, where wherever they go, because we're denied. So awesome. So I like asap.org as well.   Michele Blood ** 36:51 I love what you did. I think it was you and Ray and his wife. You were going to a particular restaurant and a a suity maitre d snotty, snooty, wouldn't let you in with your blind dog, with your with your guide dog, right? And and she was really upset the wife. And so you end up gathering quite a few of your friends that are blind, that have guide dogs, and you went in, and he had to oblige and let you all in. And everyone was very nice to you. So that was really good, because that it, it's, it's illegal for them to say you can't come in with your guide dog. It is   Michael Hingson ** 37:28 illegal, and it has been illegal for a long time. One of my favorite stories, which really wasn't a bad story at all, there used to be a restaurant in Boston in Quincy Market called Durgan Park. And Durgan Park was was basically family style, although around the outside of the room they had tables for four but you couldn't sit at one of those tables unless you had four people. Well, we came in one night and there were only three of us and my dog, Holland, and the the host has said, You know what, I'm going to make an exception and let you sit at this table for four so Holland was under the table, and there were three of us, and the waitress came up, and the waitresses at Durgan Park are known as snots. I mean, they're, they're, they're, they're supposed to be really rough and all that. It's just part of the schtick. But she came up and she said, What are you people doing sitting here? And he said, well, the host has put us here. No, she didn't. You're just sitting here. No, she did. It's because of the dog under the table. No, there's no dog under the table. You're not going to make me fall for that. And she walks away, and then she comes back and she said, you're not supposed to be sitting here and all that. I said, Look, there's a dog under the table. Take a look. And it took a while, but I finally got her to look, and there's Holland staring at her with these big brown eyes when she lifts up the the tablecloth, and the next thing I know, she comes back with a big plate. Jurgen Park has very good sized portions of frying rib and says, Can I give this to the dog, oh, and, and normally, I would never do that, but in the for to promote goodwill, I said, Okay, which Hall of love? And, you know, I knew the food there was good, but, you know, it was, it was just one of those great stories. But, yeah, all too often that isn't the way it goes. We see so many challenges with Uber, for example, so many drivers refuse to take blind people or other people with disabilities who have service dogs. It's against the rules, and they say, but it's our car. No, you signed a contract that said that you are going to transport the public, so it is illegal for you to deny us. But they do, and that's one of the things that ASAP, for example, is really working on to address, to get Uber, to recognize that it has to enforce the law like everyone else. But it's a challenge. People come from all sorts of different points of view. You know, with   Michele Blood ** 39:59 the name like. Uber. How could they do that? They're not being very Uber.   40:04 Well, there you go.   Michele Blood ** 40:07 Wow. That's interesting in this day and age. Absolutely, it continues all too often. So many people have slipped into something more comfortable, like a coma. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 40:18 Now you and your team have created an app. I think it's called what magnet to money. Tell us about that. Yeah,   Michele Blood ** 40:24 it was interesting. Thanks, Michael. I wanted to do because sometimes people like you were talking earlier, how do they get out of their you know, their depression, or whatever they're going through that they're feeling, how do they get out of that rabbit hole? So if you're feeling that way, and your mindset is in a negative state of mind, and you're emotionally not feeling well, well, then it's very, very challenging for you to want to put on some positive, you know, affirmation music. Because I know when I was in the hospital, if people came in and they were too chirpy. I would couldn't wait for them to go because I wasn't oscillating at that frequency. Yeah, you know. So they're all Oh, hi. And so I thought, wouldn't it be great if we had an app and it would just play? As you know, they can choose the notifications how often it will play. And so Polly fella, Trevor Rogers and Johnny and Dara and myself, we worked really hard, especially Holly fella, to develop this app. And it took about two and a half years to develop it. And it's got morning meditations. It's got tons of affirmations with music underneath. It's got a sleep program to help. As they're sleeping, people are sleeping, I'm very softly saying affirmations and positive you know, feed, feed to their minds. And it's also got notifications, so the magnet to money song will play whatever they want to, so they don't have to even remember to and eventually, like someone the other day, said she was in a bank and she had the magnet to Money App, and she had it as her ringtone as well. And she's in this big bank that was hardly anybody in there, but it was quite chamber ish, Echo ish, and she said, and her phone was on pretty loud. It started, I'm a magnet to money came on really loud, and everyone started laughing. They're like, well, that's sort of, I guess, you know, a good thing to play in a bank. Yeah, works. So, yeah, the magnet to Money App is fantastic. App. It's got so much on it, and it's got an audio book you get for free from myself and Bob Proctor called magnet to money through the sea of unlimited consciousness, one one of our books that we did as an audio book, and we thought we've also got a free app, because that magnet to Money App is only about, I think it's $4 or something A month, but the affirmation power app is free, and on that tons of affirmations, plus my affirmation music videos is on there as well. So that's free, if anybody wants that.   Michael Hingson ** 43:13 So yeah, so is that available with Android and Apple and iPhone? No,   Michele Blood ** 43:17 just, just apple at the moment, because to develop for an Android is much more complicated because there are so many different companies, yeah, yes, whereas Apple, it's just the iPhone, but we do intend to, but it's, you know, we've got the manifestation video app as well, and we've got a New App coming out, which is all my audio books. And I'm doing a new audio book every month, not just my books on audio, but other people's books on audio as well. And then the next step after that, is a prayer app, talking about prayer, how to pray, and for me, teaching people the power of prayer. So it's really lovely to be able to do apps that have got positive, you know, the very, very, you know, if they were to buy all those individual products from me to cost hundreds dollars, and this way it's just a few dollars a month all free for them to get all my positive songs and books and all that sort of thing.   Michael Hingson ** 44:17 How do people search for these apps that in the in the app store. I think   Michele Blood ** 44:22 that if they just go under, look under Michelle blood, okay, under my name, yeah, okay, they'll just come up. I   Michael Hingson ** 44:29 will, I will be doing that this afternoon. I think that's that's pretty cool. You know, in in our world today, we become so materialistic in so many ways, but at the same time, a lot of people have really become students of your affirmations and so on. How did they really become students? And I think even more important, one of the questions that I would ask is. How does it really transform, or did it really transform people's consciousness and set them on a road toward a more spiritual path? Because I think in so many ways, we don't see people doing that, and at the same time, I know there are a lot of people who do, but by the same token, there's so many people who go, oh, this is just all pokem. It doesn't really mean anything, but that's just not true.   Michele Blood ** 45:24 Well, I think it's, it's an interesting question to answer, because there are so many different types of people in the world, and we can't expect to change people. They have to, you know, I don't want anyone to suffer. Michael, first of all, so I think having positive thoughts in their head is going to actually make them think less of themselves, believe it or not, these the way the lyrics are done, and more of joy and sharing and caring about other people, because it is so important to to do that, because people, if they get too much into themselves, Like I say to people, don't buy anything if you're buying it. For someone else to be to compliment you, that's a really good way of deciding what you're going to purchase in your life. If you're doing it to you know, to say, Oh, I've got this really nice car. Look how great I am. But get it if you want a good car. Get it because you want a nice, safe car that's good for the environment, but don't get it so that you will impress other people. Unless you're a real estate agent, they do need good cars, apparently, to drive people around, yeah, I guess so. Drive people around,   Michael Hingson ** 46:35 but, or drive people crazy, yeah,   Michele Blood ** 46:37 but. But I also think it's important that that if you want to, you can't tell someone to be more spiritual. They have to get into a positive frame of mindset first. Because when you're in a positive frame of mindset, you start feeling more of a heart blow, more love. And even if you don't believe in God, you believe in love everybody, I know you do, so whether it's your animal that you love, because every animal is an angel, whether it's nature, smelling the remembering to stop and smell the flowers, remembering to not let yourself complain. Complaining will take you down a rabbit hole of absolute negativity and please. People remember, the only reason you're complaining is because you're feeling fear about losing something or not getting something that you want. And so if you can stop complaining for 28 days straight, you will change your life. And I know that sounds impossible, but many people can do it, because I've seen my students do it. So if you can stop complaining and stop half if you're halfway through a complaint about something or someone or politics or Trump or whatever in the hell it is, stop yourself halfway through and just say, Why am I complaining? And people are complaining because they're in fear. If you can stop and be mindful enough to say, I'm complaining because I'm afraid of something, and I don't want to face it and find out what you're afraid of, the thing that you're afraid of will dissipate. Yeah, it really will. So I think that's a really good place to start listening to the positive songs, for sure, going to every single unstoppable mindset podcast you possibly can go to reading Michael's books, and also, just knowing that you can get out of that rabbit hole, it is totally possible, and I've seen it in people from all different cultures and religious backgrounds all over the world. I've traveled to so many different countries, and have so many different audiences, and everybody wants to be loved and be loved in return. And everybody wants to see other people happy at their core. They really do. We don't want to make people unhappy, do you? So stop complaining.   Michael Hingson ** 49:07 You know, it's, it's interesting that you, you talk about all this, one of the things that we talk a lot about, and you'll see it and live like the guide dog, is that we need to become more introspective. Because if we do and we really look at ourselves daily, and, for example, look at what worked today, what didn't work. Why didn't it work? You eventually get to what was I really afraid of? And if you really stop to think about that and go, I didn't need to be afraid of that, your life will change, which is really, as you're pointing out, what it's all about.   Michele Blood ** 49:44 Excellent, excellent. I'm looking forward to reading that as well, and then I've already told everyone to get thunder dog on all my lists. But now I'll be, after I read the next one, I'll be telling them to read that as well, because we're on the same page. Michael.   Michael Hingson ** 49:59 Tell me a little bit about something I've read in your bio, how you went from affirmations to a full kundalini awakening.   Michele Blood ** 50:09 Well, when I was working with Bob Proctor in Asia, I was saying to him one day, I feel this heart blow like I feel like my heart is out of my chest, and I feel such deep love. And it's not for any person, place or thing. It's for everything, actually, but it's beyond that. It's divine. And he said, you're looking for an enlightened teacher. That's what you need. And I said, Well, where do you find an enlightened teacher, and what exactly is that? And he got me to read Autobiography of a Yogi by Hara mahansa Yogananda. And I'd read it before, but I didn't really get it like I did this time when I read it, and I realized that enlightenment wasn't just one person. People can actually meditate and go into higher states of consciousness, but I wasn't thinking of how is an enlightened being around in this modern world? That can't be right? Because I it must be like unless it's Asia maybe. He said, I don't know. He said, I did have a Canadian man who was enlightened, who taught me for three years before he died, left the body. And he said, you just have to pray for it and know that the teacher and the student will find each other. It took me 14 years of searching all over the world, and eventually I found an enlightened teacher in all places America, and I decided to go off the grid, and I really had to to study with her as a student, because she didn't like us to be on Facebook or social media. She said, you don't want attention on yourself when you're studying with me, because you want to be able to go in deeply. Yeah. So I went off. I studied with her for 12 years, but after the first few years, I went into a full awakening myself, never expecting that. Didn't expect it to happen to me. I thought, how could a rock singer in Australia, have a kundalini awakening, but I did, and now I love to teach mysticism and spirituality and meditation practice to students from all over the world. And I love to do it. I think there's so many tools in the toolbox of life, whatever sort of personality you have, whether you're extremely religious or you just want to have more positive outcome. You want to become healthier. I think meditation practice is good for everybody. You do not have to be religious or think of spirituality to enjoy a quiet mind. It'll slow down your blood pressure. It will give you pump your blood, it'll stop your mind from going down a million rabbit holes where your senses take you. I just think meditation practice is a miraculous, privileged thing to do.   Michael Hingson ** 52:53 I agree. And you know, one of the things that it's a little bit off topic for what you just said, but we were talking earlier about people praying and looking for so many things. I'm amazed at how many people pray to God, telling God what they want and what they think they need. And I'm sitting there whenever I hear about that today, especially, I think, Wait a minute, God already knows that what you need to do is to listen to get the response, and thank God for the response, but people just don't do that. I'm just so amazed at at that. But it's it is so true that we spend too much time not doing the thing that we really need to do, which is listening and talking with God, not talking to God.   Michele Blood ** 53:46 Yeah, that's why I I'm loving recording the new prayer app, because I explain to people what prayer actually is. It's not If you do this for me, God, I'll start, stop eating pizza, yeah? Or maybe trade off. So I teach people what prayer actually is, and it's, it's really the most sacred thing and beautiful thing, and it will uplift you, even if you just, I've got a section where they I'm praying for others, so they can just listen to any different topic of what type of prayer, but the main thing for me was explaining, doing the introduction of what prayer is and how to pray, because so many people have no idea what prayer really is, that communion with your higher self, and once you get to understand what that is, then you can hear that still, small voice you can literally hear through. Ah, your intuition becomes stronger you can and intuition is you being in tune with your higher self. And your higher self is omniscient wisdom. It created everything so it knows what. To tell you to do, and it will bring into your experience everything when you accept, when you can be open and receptive to receive and to give, just sort of let yourself go, just surrender to that divine Higher Self, when you can learn how to do that. That's another thing that I do on this prayer app is teach you what surrender really means and how you can do it. It's not taking your willpower away from you, because everyone that's a gift that we've been given. So we can make good choices in life, sometimes bad choices, but we can use our willpower to get ourselves out of that rabbit hole. So thank you for asking that. Michael, it's   Michael Hingson ** 55:41 extremely important to be able to do that. Well, you mentioned earlier that you had gifts for people listening to this podcast. Love it if you tell us about that,   Michele Blood ** 55:52 yes, yummy gifts. If you go to Michelle. Blood com, it's spelled M, I, C, H, E, L, E, B, L, O, O, O, d.com, forward slash unstoppable mindset. We've called that. We've made that link especially for Michael's podcast. Just for your people, they will get the audio version of one of my favorite books I've written called the magic of affirmation power audio book. They will get that for free, but in that audio book has tons of affirmations you can repeat after me, links to some of my music for free. You'll also get a six week mysticism course, and there are other things as well. I can't remember what they are right now, but they're all on that link.   Michael Hingson ** 56:37 But Michelle blood com slash unstoppable mindset. I thank you for the otter. Appreciate that. Well now if people want to come hear you, I know you do live events and you do zoom events and so on. How can we learn about that? How can people do that?   Michele Blood ** 56:57 Well, they can go to request Divine light.com to find out what is my next event, because I have free events, a lot a lot of free zoom events people can come to, and you'll just get to meet so many happy, lovely people from so many different countries. And we just have a blast together. And you'll be very, very uplifted after everyone, because everyone that comes on are just, we seem to be attracting, over the years, just people that are really, sincerely wanting a better life and to do it, to do good in the world. And I just love them all so much. So if they go to request Divine Light com, they can see where my next free event will be. I mean, it's on Zoom, but I mean when it will be   Michael Hingson ** 57:46 right? Request, divine light. Com, cool. Well, I really appreciate you coming on. And obviously people can go to Michelle blood, com, and there's a lot there, I would assume as well. So hopefully people will go, go check out everything that's there, and we'll take this seriously, because I think there is so much that you have offered. We've had a number of people on unstoppable mindset who talk about everything from reg a to Eastern medicine, meditation and and so many things. They all can't be totally wrong. So from my perspective, they are not wrong. But by the same token, it's fun to be able to get a chance to to have you on. We'll have to do this again, and I'm going to certainly go download the apps and put them on my nice little iPhone and start taking advantage of them. But I really appreciate you coming on and and being with us for an hour today. Well,   Michele Blood ** 58:51 Michael, thank you for the books that you've written and everything that you've done in the world. I just think you're just an inspiration and just a lovely, lovely man. So thank you. It's, it's lovely getting to know you. And I'm just going to tell everyone about these books, because they're amazing, well written as well. Just really, really good.   Michael Hingson ** 59:13 Well, thank you. So, when are you going to do a podcast? I'm going   Michele Blood ** 59:17 to do a podcast with a man called just I just had a brain fart. Thomas Miller, uh, at the moment, his podcast is called subconscious mind mastery, and he's interviewed me quite a few times. We met in person, and I love his outlook on life, about really not saying no to anything that's mystical. And so we're going to start one next year together. He's already got his own, but this will be a different one where we'll go a little deeper, a deeper dive into mysticism. I think we're going to call it well,   Michael Hingson ** 59:55 if he needs a guess for his existing podcast, if he has guests or. You guys have your podcast together. If you ever want a guest, I volunteer. So I'll just, Oh,   Michele Blood ** 1:00:05 I'll tell him today. Goodness, yes,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:10 I'm, I'm always, I'm always open for that. Oh,   Michele Blood ** 1:00:13 I'll tell him today. Yeah, because you, I love you.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:18 Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. I hope you enjoyed this at least half as much as I did, hopefully as much as I did. This has been a lot of fun and educational, I think, in so many ways, to help us deal with our outlooks on life. I'd love to hear your thoughts about it. Please feel free to email me. Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast website, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n. So Michael hingson.com/podcast, and wherever you're listening, please give us a five star review. We really value your reviews. But of course, love the five star ones, so if we can, we would really appreciate it if you give us a five star review and and say, say good things about us and and go off and definitely visit Michelle's pages. And, of course, being very prejudiced, go to Michelle blood com slash unstoppable mindset and get some free gifts from her. And if you know of anyone who you think would be a good guest, and Michelle you as well. I'm always looking for podcast guests, so okay, don't hesitate to to refer people to us. We appreciate that a whole lot. So once again, I want to thank you for being here. Michelle, this has been a lot of fun. Thank   Michele Blood ** 1:01:45 you. Michael, God bless you. More love everyone. More Love   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:54   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Dr. Khwaja Moinuddin grew up in India with what he calls a “normal childhood”. He attended high school and then received his bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering in his home town. With some convincing and soul searching he then came to the United States and attended Texas Tech university where he obtained his Master's degree and began working toward obtaining a PhD. Khwaja tells us about his time at Texas Tech including how, when funding grew hard to get, he overcame his fears and adversity and found a job that helped him stay in school. Even so, while working on his Doctorate degree he secured a job with 3M and, as he tells us, he learned a lot and even today he is grateful for the opportunities he had at this company. Eventually, however, under the advice of others he did finish his PhD, but not in Mechanical Engineering as such.   Khwaja began learning about organizations, how they worked, why often they didn't work well and he developed ways to help people at all levels of organizations learn how to stop being so resistive to change and thus develop more positive attitudes and constructive methods of accomplishing tasks.   We get to hear much wisdom from Khwaja on leadership, resistance to change and how to better accomplish tasks by being more open to new ideas. This episode is a MUST for everyone if you are at all open to learning some new ideas and growing to be better in whatever you do at work, in life and at play.       About the Guest:   Dr. Khwaja Moinuddin is a renowned leader in Continuous Improvement, Change Management, and Business Transformation, with over 22 years of hands-on experience driving measurable impact across diverse industries. His mission is clear: to help organizations embed a culture of excellence, resilience, and continuous learning - not as a temporary initiative, but as a way of working. Whether leading large-scale change programs, coaching executives, or transforming operational models, he has built a reputation for delivering tangible business results and lasting cultural shifts. With deep expertise in Continuous Improvement, Change Leadership, and Robotic Process Automation (RPA), Dr. Moinuddin partners with organizations to challenge the status quo, eliminate inefficiencies, and create high-performing teams. He has worked across multiple industries, functions, and global markets, collaborating with executive leaders, middle managers, and frontline employees to break down silos and drive sustainable transformation. His holistic approach ensures that strategy, execution, and people engagement work in tandem, because real change happens when employees at every level take ownership of improvement. A passionate thought leader and author, Dr. Moinuddin has distilled his years of experience into two books that serve as practical guides for transformation:   "I.N.S.P.I.R.E. - An Adaptive Change Excellence Model and Guide of the people, for the people, by the people" – A framework for leading people-centered, high-impact change initiatives. "Are You (Really) Listening?: Decoding the Secrets of Unheard Conversations" – A deep dive into the power of listening as a critical leadership and change management skill.   Dr. Moinuddin's philosophy is simple: transformation is not about tools, it's about people, mindset, and discipline. If your organization is struggling with change fatigue, leadership misalignment, or resistance to new ways of working, he can help you turn obstacles into opportunities and create a culture where excellence thrives. Let's connect and explore how we can drive real, measurable business impact, together!     Dr. Khwaja Moinuddin's journey is a testament to the power of perseverance, continuous learning, and an unstoppable mindset. Born and raised in a simple middle-class family in Pondicherry, India, a former French colony - he completed his schooling and earned a Bachelor's degree in Mechanical Engineering before moving to the U.S. to pursue his Master's in Industrial Engineering. At Texas Tech University, he excelled academically, achieving a 4.0/4.0 GPA in his major (Manufacturing) and an overall GPA of 3.83/4.0. While pursuing his degree, he also worked as an intern for Rhodia Inc., a chemicals manufacturing company, gaining valuable hands-on industry experience. Khwaja began his career as an Industrial Engineer with 3M, where he learned the foundations for his expertise in Continuous Improvement (CI) and Change Leadership. Over the years, he obtained multiple professional certifications, including Lean Six Sigma Master Black Belt, Certified Change Practitioner, Certified Prince2 Practitioner and Certified Scrum Master. His career took him across the globe, leading large-scale transformation initiatives in world-renowned organizations such as Ocean Spray Cranberries, Shell, Maersk, GARMCO, HSBC, and PDO (Petroleum Development Oman). Despite a demanding global career, Khwaja pursued his passion for learning, earning a Doctorate in Management Studies and a second Master's degree in Psychology while working full-time. His belief "To Learn is to Breathe" has shaped his leadership philosophy, helping organizations embrace change, embed a culture of excellence, and achieve breakthrough results. Beyond his professional accomplishments, Khwaja is a devoted husband and father. He fell in love with and married his wife, Sangeetha, while in the U.S., and together they have a 15-year-old son, Tanish. They now reside in Chennai, India. Dr. Khwaja travels frequently for his consulting work, and he continues to inspire businesses, leaders, and professionals to transform their organizations, and themselves - with an unstoppable mindset.   Ways to connect with Dr. Khwaja:   https://www.processexcellencenetwork.com/contributor/khwaja-moinuddin https://www.journeytowardsexcellence.com/ https://www.khwajamoinuddin.com/ https://www.journeytowardsexcellence.com/ https://www.khwajamoinuddin.com/     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hello again, everyone. I am your host once again. Michael hingson, and you are listening to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're with us, wherever you happen to be in the world, and wherever we happen to be talking in the world. And today we're actually talking to Dr Khwaja Moinuddin from India. So it's a long distance boy signals travel a lot faster today than they did when we used covered wagons or Coney pony expresses. So I'm really grateful for the fact that we get to use Zoom and computers and do things in such a meaningful way. So anyway, here we are. Kwaja has written two books, and I know he's going to tell us about those, so I'm not going to give a lot of that away. He has been a transformational leader. He also has a background in mechanical engineering, and that fascinates me, because it seems to me, it's interesting going from mechanical engineering to being a transformational subject matter expert and expert by any standard. So I'm going to be curious to hear about that. But anyway, meanwhile, Khwaja, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset, and thank you for being here.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 02:28 Thank you. Thank you, Michael, it's, it's indeed an honor to be on your podcast. And you know, as as we have been discussing, I'm no expert by any means. I have just gathered years and years of experience, 22 plus years of experience, and I'm still learning and continuous improvement, transformation. It's an ocean. So the more you know I learn, the more I feel like I don't know much. Yes, there is to learn, yes.   Michael Hingson ** 03:05 Well, I know exactly what you're saying. I think if we stop learning, then we have really let ourselves down and let the world down. We need to continue to learn. And I very much enjoy doing this podcast, because I get to learn so much from so many people. It's really a lot of fun. So I want to again, thank you for being here and looking forward to all that we get to talk about today. So let's get to it. I'd like to learn a little bit about maybe the early Khwaja Growing up and so on. Tell us a little bit about you growing up in India and so on.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 03:38 Yep, I'm from a very small town in Pondicherry called Pondicherry in in India, the closest big city is Chennai. It's about 160 kilometers south of Chennai. It used to be a former French colony. Now the place has been changed. I mean, the name has been changed from Pondicherry to Puducherry. But growing up, I'm the youngest of two kids. I have a brother. He's four years older than me, and my parents were typical middle class, lower middle class, both working parents. They worked really, really hard to put me and my brother through to school. They took care of us, they protected us. So I'm really grateful for my parents, my mom, my dad and my brother also could be quite me, you know, when I was young. So I'm really grateful to my family, because we were just the four of us in our family. Growing up, I went to a public school, initially, I went to a private school, and. Uh, but then my parents couldn't afford the fees, so we moved to public school, and I did all my schooling and my bachelor's in mechanical engineering in Pondicherry. So born and brought up in Pondicherry, which was a small fishing village, didn't know much about the real world until, you know, I graduated and stepped out of India for the very first time to go to the US to do my master's degree. My childhood was, was, was normal, you know, on a living on a on a coast. So I really enjoyed living near the beach. We didn't live very far away from the beach, just maybe, you know, maybe 100, 200 meters away from the beach. Growing up, I had a lot of friends, so we would be, would take our bicycles and and, you know, ride all over the town because it, you know, it wasn't as crazy as it is now with all the traffic and stuff, it was less congested. And the good thing about Pondicherry, an interesting fact is, because it was designed by the French, all the streets in Pondicherry are at right angles to each other. So you would never get lost if you are in Pondicherry, in the middle of the Pondicherry, because wherever you go, if you take a right turn and another right turn and another right turn, you will end up at the same place. So you will never get lost. That's an interesting fact in Pondicherry. How about Pondicherry?   Michael Hingson ** 06:39 So it certainly is a whole lot easier to travel around pontichery than it is to travel around Washington DC by any standard, I think. So yes, there's a lot of Angular streets and streets that go in different directions in Washington. So yeah, I think I'd like pot of cherry that's pretty good. So did you learn to fish?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 07:03 Not, not, yeah. I mean, I did learn how to fish, but more swimming. Used to go to the ocean almost every day. You know, I think I practically spent a lot of time on the beach with my friends and in the playgrounds. Our playgrounds used to be huge growing up, unlike now, they have become so small and condensed with all the, you know, development, the real estate that's growing in India, in Pondicherry and in India in general. But, but yeah, I did learn how to fish, you know, not using, like a fishing rod in the in the US, but using, you know, the the fishing, the the thread, you know, the nylon wire, fishing net, yeah, yeah. Not, not the net, but the wire, just was the single wire,   Michael Hingson ** 07:58 well, so you what, what got you into mechanical engineering?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 08:05 Well, you know, as, as all of my fellow Indians would say, in India, you are either an engineer or a doctor first. So, so I really had no choice. I had to become an engineer or a doctor. I didn't score enough to become a doctor, so I naturally became an engineer. But since I have to become an engineer, I was looking at, you know, all the different fields of engineering. What fascinated me was, you know, the field of mechanical engineering, because I heard from several of my friends and colleagues that mechanical engineering is an evergreen field, and typically, mechanical engineers can fit anywhere. And they were really, really they were, they were 100% correct. And I'm glad I chose mechanical engineering and I really liked my subject, because that what I am today would not be if I hadn't learned about mechanical engineering. Well.   Michael Hingson ** 09:07 So you, you got your bachelor's degree, but then you, as you said, you stepped out and you, you actually came to the United States and went to Texas Tech to do your advanced degree. What made you do that? That's moving a long way from home, yep.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 09:23 So some of my my my friends and my seniors, also, when I was doing my mechanical engineering, they were talking about something called as a GRE or a TOEFL. It sounded Greek, like Greek and Latin to me. I didn't know what it was. I had no intention of going to the US initially. My intention was to get a job and earn a lot of money and and I was almost done studying at that point of time, you know, learning subjects like thermodynamics and lot of advanced mechanics. Engineering stuff for four years really wears you out. But my my seniors and and my cousin also, and my uncles and a lot of my relatives, they said, you know, if you don't do your masters now, and if you go straight away to work, you may not have the inclination to learn more. So they really, they really prompted me or nudged me to do my Masters also, and and my mom, of course, she has been a great, great, great driving force behind me. She She encouraged me to always, always, always learn. She herself has, you know, so many degrees I cannot, I don't even know how many degrees she has. She has master's degrees and Bachelor's degrees in in, you know, all sorts of areas. And to this day, you know, she she keeps learning, and she has been a teacher for about 45 years now. So so my mom, along with my relatives and my friends. They said, You know, you need to study more so. So, you know, I had actually got a job, you know, in my fourth year. And I got a job through on campus interviews, you know, like a career fair in the in the US, similar to a career fair in the US. So I gave up that job and I wrote GRE and TOEFL. I worked hard. Got I did not get like flying colors, but I got, I got good grades in GRE and TOEFL, and then I applied to universities. Initially I was going to be an aerospace engineer, but then my friends also told me that maybe that's a difficult field to get a job in in future, because it requires, you know, us, security clearance and stuff. So you're you're better off doing something which is related to mechanical engineering, or even mechanical engineering. I didn't want to go too much into technical stuff, so I explored industrial engineering, and I found, you know, the courses and all that stuff were really to my liking and to my interest. So, so then I chose industrial engineering and Texas Tech specifically because of the industrial engineering program they had. So then and, and that's one, one thing led to another. And then I landed in Texas Tech University.   Michael Hingson ** 12:26 Well, that must have been fun. So you had lots of new experiences. You learned about football and all sorts of other things in addition to your academic studies. Yes,   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 12:36 yes. Red Raiders. Go Red Raiders. Yeah, right.   Michael Hingson ** 12:40 Well, and I, I went to UC Irvine. I don't know, I still don't know if we have a much of a football team today. We have a good basketball team, but go anteaters anyway. So it's, it is interesting how our lives change and how we end up, how God gives us different opportunities? And then, of course, the issue really is us taking those opportunities and moving forward with them. When you You certainly did. You stepped out and you moved to the United States, you went to Texas Tech, you got your bachelor's, and where did you get your PhD?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 13:19 So I got my master's from Texas Tech, and I was, I also started to do my PhD in industrial engineering in Texas Tech, but unfortunately, I didn't finish, because the the department ran out of funding, and I had to search for a job. So I started to, I got my job in 3m as an industrial engineer. But I also did an internship in another company called Rodia, which is a chemicals manufacturing company. But then, you know, while I was doing, while I was, you know, still pursuing my full time job, I really wanted to go back to Texas Tech and complete my PhD, because I had completed all my coursework, except for the which was the dissertation which was pending. And you know, at that time, one of the professors told me, quadra, try and complete your PhD, otherwise you will regret it. I still remember his words to this day. I should have, you know, looking back, I should have stayed back in Texas Tech and finished my PhD. I should have, you know, borrowed some more money and finished my PhD in industrial engineering in Texas Tech. But nevertheless, what I did is I did my doctorate, professional doctorate in management studies in Indian School of Business Management. So slightly different. But, you know, I didn't, I didn't actually want to go for an MBA. So I want I did the doctorate in management studies because I was more interested in organizational behavior, operations. Management in that field. So I got it in 2012   Michael Hingson ** 15:07 Wow. So you, you, you did complete it, even though, again, it went in a slightly different direction. But what was your interest that that took you into a little bit more of a business oriented environment, because you had clearly been in mechanical engineering and in that discipline for most of your studies.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 15:25 Yes, yes. So, you know, when I was doing my master's degree in Industrial Engineering, you know, and I got interested in continuous improvement, lean, Six Sigma, transformation, change management in that field, more as I was doing my masters in industrial engineering. And then when I got my first job in in 3m 3m is a great company, as you know, you know, I learned all the basics of my lean, Six Sigma change management, you know, hands on in 3m and I'm still grateful to this day that my very first job was in 3am actually, it's a funny story, because, you know, I got the job in 3m on the same day I was interviewed. So the I was very lucky. I think the the line manager really liked me, and he said, kwaja, I'm going to hire you on the spot. So I was, I was really, really, you know, ecstatic on that day, and I still remember that feeling to this day, yes. So what interested me to coming back to your question was when I was working in 3m they have a good mentorship program. So they asked me, you know, how do you want your career to be? You know, where do you see yourself in five years? In 10 years? In 15 years? How do you see yourself growing? And I said, I want to grow in the technical field. I want to become like a subject matter expert in Lean, Six Sigma, Black Belt, Master, Black Belt. And I want to grow in the technical field. And I remember the mentor, she told me, kwaja, while that's a good thought, but you will not grow much if you are purely technical, you will grow more if you combine your technical expertise with management, how to lead people, how to manage people, how to do change management with people so she actually, you know, planted the seed in me to do more of, you know, people management role. And for that, she prompted me to do more courses in people management, leading teams, how to work and collaborate with, you know, cross functional teams. And that interested me, and I started to search for courses that would give me that exposure. And then, you know, given the fact that also I took some courses in my master's, or when I was doing my PhD in industrial engineering, it prompted me more to move away from technical rather than getting a PhD in industrial engineering, to do adopt rate in management studies. And hence I, you know, slightly moved into the people management, operations management, into the softer stuff of managing people and getting stuff done through people, through others.   Michael Hingson ** 18:14 Well, nothing, nothing wrong with that. I know my background was in physics. But along the way, there came a time that I was confronted with an opportunity to take a job that wasn't directly related to physics, and I chose to do it. But out of that, I ended up being put in a situation once where I had to make a choice to either go find a new job or change from doing kind of human factors studies and other things related to a product going in instead into sales, and I chose to go into sales, but my reasoning was, It's difficult enough for blind people to get jobs. Finding a new job would be really a challenge, whereas an opportunity was being offered, and it was a good opportunity, so I accepted it. So again, I know that many times we do find that there is a an opportunity that comes along that maybe we don't expect, and if we take it, it's the right way to go.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 19:14 Yes indeed. And your story has been fascinating, Michael, to be honest with you, it has been, you know, it's very inspirational. Your story, me and my wife, we were sharing, you know, how you how you overcame adversity, that's really, really, really inspirational.   Michael Hingson ** 19:33 Well, thank you. And I, I appreciate that. And you know, to me, it's just how we live life, and we sometimes we're presented with challenges and and we have to deal with those challenges, which is, of course, our role, and if we don't, then we're the losers for doing it. Well, in your case, did you ever have a defining moment or a situation where, if, since we call this unstoppable mindset, where. Kind of a mindset really affected you and to help you through it.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 20:05 Yeah. I mean, many, many, many, many situations, there's never a dull day in continuous improvement, so it's full of challenges. Always, always. You know, in every organization I have worked for, there have been challenges in terms of, you know, how to deploy continuous improvement, how to take people with you in the journey of continuous improvement. But one of the things you know early on, when I was doing my my master's degree, is, you know, I think that that laid the foundation also for me to become more resilient and more adaptable. You know, when, when my department said they didn't have funding I wanted to, and this was, you know, when, when I was doing my master's degree, not, not, you know, when I went into my PhD, when I was doing my master's degree, after a semester, they said they didn't have enough funding. So a lot of my colleagues, you know, those who are in engineering, whether mechanical or industrial or or chemical or petroleum engineering, they would they were searching for jobs. I think it was the summer of 2001 and since it was summer, a lot of professors were on were on vacation, and I went door to door, knocking on every professor's, you know, Office, Office door. And almost everybody you know, kind of, you know, either shoot me away or said, you know, we don't have funding. Or, you know, their doors were closed because they were on vacation. So one of the, one of the things I did, you know, you know, I was very, very frustrated. I couldn't sleep. So I thought, What am I doing? What am I doing? What am I doing wrong here? Why am I not getting the funding. Why am I not getting a research assistantship? So as I was laying on my on my bed that that night, one evening, I thought to myself, and an idea came to me, why don't I go into Texas Tech University's Health Sciences Center, which is slightly far away. It's, you know, we have to walk, like, at least half an hour to get to the Texas Tech University's Health Sciences Center. And it's predominantly, you know, biology, Health Sciences Center. So nobody, none of my colleagues, had gone there to look for a job. So I thought, why not go there? Maybe I will find some luck. So initially, you know, I was told, No, you know, you don't have a biology background or, you know, we don't have jobs here. But on the third day, one professor, you know, as I was, I thought, you know, my day, on that day also is going to be a disappointment. Around five o'clock that evening, when I was about to go home and I noticed one professor's door was open. His name is branch Schneider, so if he's, if he's watching, you know, I'm grateful to him also for this brand Schneider. He is the professor in oncology department in Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center. So I approached him, his door was open, and I told him, I'm searching for a job. Any job? Would you be able to give me a job? He thought, he thought about it, and without hesitation, you know, he said, I do have a job, but you may not like it. And he said, You know, it's it involves washing dishes, bakers. Are you comfortable in doing it? I said, I thought about it, and I said, I can do it if it helps me to get in state tuition. And he also thought about it, and he said, Yeah, I think that should not be a problem. And once I agreed to do that, then he said, I don't want you to just do that. I want to use your engineering skills to help me with research. You know, doing some reports, research, reports and analysis using your engineering skills. Would you be able to do that? I said, That's my specialty. I would be glad to do that. So, you know, one thing led to another, and then, you know, he gave me the research assistantship, and you know, I was able to continue with my with my master's degree without, you know, burdening my parents. Because, you know, I had got a huge loan to go to the US, as you know, going to the US during those times is not, is not cheap. It's very expensive. So, you know, I think that's what, that's what laid the foundation. So I thought, you know, nothing is impossible. So if I can do that, I think I can convince people to do change management, at least my change management skills, and, you know, my Lean Six Sigma skills to do the continuous improvement in organizations. So I think that one moment, I think, was, you know, when, when I got that. I didn't realize that, you know, when I got back to my room and I told my friends that, you know, I had got this job, everybody's jaw dropped. They said, You have done something impossible. So they said, you know, we are now going to go to Health Sciences Center also. So I think a lot of our engineering guys went and knocked doors in Health Sciences Center, and they began to get jobs there. I   Michael Hingson ** 25:24 remember once, one of the first jobs my brother ever got. He was, I think, in high school. He had gotten to high school, and he went to apply at a restaurant for a job, just to earn some money. And the owner said, Well, you know, let me think about it. Would you go outside and we got some weeds out in the in the area around the restaurant, would you just pull the weeds? And my brother said, Sure, why not? I don't have anything else to do. So he went out on like, in a half hour, he had, excuse me, he had pulled all the weeds. The manager came out and was just absolutely amazed that he had had done all of that. And he said, Well, okay, and I thought about it, I'll give you a job. And of course, he was really being tested. Would he go out and do whatever he was asked to do? Which Which he did do? And when he came home and told my parents, and I was there at the time about that, they said, you understand that this guy was just testing you to see whether you would do whatever needed to be done to help the restaurant. And you passed, and he got the job. We never know where things are going to come from. And indeed, yes, we should be open and be willing to explore. It's always a good thing when we do that. I haven't thought about that in years, but you just reminded me of that story, and it's a great story, and for me, it was a lesson that you've got to do sometimes different things, and when, when you're really asking for someone's assistance, you also need to look at what they're asking you to do, and you need to do what they're asking   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 27:01 yes, unless it's to shoot No, I'm not going to go out and   Michael Hingson ** 27:07 shoot someone. But that's a different story. But well, that's great. Well, now, while you were in the United States, you also went off and got married, huh?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 27:18 Yes, I did.   Michael Hingson ** 27:21 Well, that was a that was a good thing. That's another good reason to have come to the US. Yes, now, is your wife from India or the US?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 27:33 Well, it's a, it's an interesting story. Once again, we she, she is. She's two years younger to me, and, you know, we met at a birthday party, and in, you know, at a professor's daughter's birthday party. And I initially thought I knew her from somewhere, so I was very, very shy to to approach her. But then some of her, some of her friends, or, I think some of my friends who knew her, they asked me if you know I would be okay to drop them to their house. So when I was, when I was driving, I looked at her through the, you know, the rear view mirror, yeah, and I, I liked her a lot, so, but I didn't know whether she was looking at me at that time or not. But then later, I told her that I was looking at you when I was driving. And then, you know, one thing led to another, and you know, we dated. She's from India, so she was also doing her master's degree. When, when, you know, at the time, you know, I was doing an internship in in a chemicals manufacturing company in Vernon, Texas, which is in the middle of nowhere. And I used to drive three hours from Vernon to Lubbock because I thought Lubbock was in the middle of nowhere. But then, when I was when I was working in Vernon, which is just no like a small town of 10,000 people, then when I used to drive back to Lubbock, it was like heaven, Paradise. I could see many people in Lubbock. So when I was driving back and forth. And I was in, I met her in this, in this party, and then we started to date. And then, you know, we got, we got married in the US in 2000 we were dating for a very long time. We lived together also for for a long time, we got to know each other. And then we got married in 2008   Michael Hingson ** 29:42 Ah, well, that's great. Congratulations. How long have you been married now? Thank you.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 29:48 Well. We have known each other now for 21 years since 2004 Yes, and we have been married since 2008 so 17 years. Wow. Congratulations. Thank you, thank you. And we have a son, 15 years old. And yeah, we, we are still, you know, happily married to each other, and she, you know, she has been a great support for me, not only in times of happiness, but but especially, you know, when I get frustrated, when when I'm not in such a good mood, or when I feel dejected, she has supported me tremendously, and she's still supporting me tremendously, but   Michael Hingson ** 30:30 I bet that goes both ways.   30:33 Yes,   Michael Hingson ** 30:35 you have to be more stable than you.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 30:41 Yes, well, I think she's more emotionally matured also. Then I don't want to tell her that, but she may know after this podcast   Michael Hingson ** 30:52 well. So you do a lot of work in working with people involved in resistance and change and continuous improvement, and you deal with people with resistance and change. How do you push back? And how do you push beyond that? How do you get people who are so resistive to change to to agreeing to change? You know, the reason I ask is that we all we all hear people talk all the time about how change is important. Changes is necessary, but none of us really want to change. How do you deal with that?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 31:26 Yes, so, you know, over the years, this is what, this is what I have learned also. And you know, I, I did my masters, my second masters in psychology, and that helped me a great deal. Also, I've always been, you know, fascinated with the psychology of human behavior. So I always wondered, you know, even when working in 3m or in my first company as an intern, I always wondered, you know, why? You know, even if a change is good, why are people resisting? And years and years passed by, I always, I always thought that, you know, we can, we can always convince people with rational, logical stuff, with data. But then I found out, you know, through through trial and error, I don't get convinced using logic. I have my own ways to resist. So when I learned about how I am resisting, I thought that's natural. Then how people, other people would resist. Because, you know my girlfriend at that time, who is my wife. Now, when she used to suggest something I would resist, that. She would say, quarter, you're not organized, you know, let's, let's get the house organized. And I would resist it because, you know, getting organized is a good thing, but then I had my own way of doing stuff. So, you know, to this day, I still resist, by the way, and she's still trying to convince me to get organized, but you know, I know why I resist. You know why I'm resisting. I know how I resist. So you know that, that you know early on, helped me, that, you know, people resist because we are trying to change them. It's not the change, but it's we are trying to change them into something that they don't want to so, for example, you know, one of the one of the line managers, or one of the leaders in a company that I worked for, he was completely against continuous improvement. He was telling me, I have been doing continuous improvement quadra, for 20 years, I don't need you to come and tell me how to do my job and how to improve it. And he was very open about it. I'm so glad he was. He was so open about it. Because, you know, I have also seen people who resist very covertly. They would say yes in front of you, and then, you know, go back and do their own stuff, or, you know, they won't do anything at all. So I wanted to understand him, why he felt that way. And, you know, I went on, you know, plant walks with him, and he was very proud when we were when we were walking around the plant, he showed me all the improvements that he did. So I told him, Bill, his name is Bill, what you're doing is continuous improvement. Bill, so I'm not trying to tell you to do your job. I'm here to tell you how to I'm here to help you how to do your job in a more structured way. And that's what CI is all about. So when I said that, immediately, he said, you know, guaja, I wish somebody you know, in your place, had told me that earlier, because people who had before you, who came before you, they were all about tools and templates. And I hate to use tools and templates. I'm more of a practical guy. So then that was a learning for me, also that, you know, that was an aha moment for me, that people, you know, certain people, have. Certain way of learning, and certain people have certain way of improving, but we all want to improve. So if we guide people in the right direction, and we talk their language, you know, we use their frame of reference, we use their language and and we see what are their pain points, and we try to help them overcome those pain points, then people would naturally, you know, you know, get the we would get the buy in for for the change, and people would not resist so much. So at the end, you know, what happened is Bill became a huge supporter of CI, not only a huge supporter of CI, he passed my green belt exam. Also, I coached him, and he passed my green belt exam. And he was, he was very happy. Initially, he was, he was, he was reluctant to even attend my course. But then, you know, after he went through the course, and then, you know, after we built the rapport. And then I, and then I told him, I'm not trying to replace you or, or I'm not trying to steal your job or, or I'm not telling trying to, you know, tell you how to do your job, because that's not what I'm here for. I'm here to help you. And continuous improvement is a more structured way of doing things, because you may be doing in trial and error, and by doing trial and error, you know, you may be making some costly mistakes, but when we apply it in a structured way, we can avoid 19 99% of errors, most of the time. So he really liked that approach. And he liked my approach of making things very, very practical, not speaking, you know, in heavy technical terms, not using the jargon and explaining it to him, you know, in his own language. That's what helped, you know, reduce the resistance. And over the years, what I have done is also, you know, adapt my way of how I'm approaching resistance. One of the courses which I took, and it was a certification course, also was, you know, instead of waiting for resistance to happen to you, we should approach resistance proactively. You know, when we announce a change, we should naturally expect resistance, and when we have resistance, it's a good thing. I have never, I never heard about it before, before I attended the course. I thought always resistance is bad. I thought resistance is something that we need to fight. We need to convince people, and those people who resist, they don't know what they're talking about. I used to see them as, you know, almost like enemies at workplace. This guy is against CI, why doesn't he or she gets CI, why are they, you know, resisting so much. Why are they criticizing me so much? I used to take it personally also. Later, I learned, you know, not to take things personally as well. So what I what I found, was that we should surface resistance proactively, whether you know it is in work life or in personal life, you know, when we are trying to do something out of the ordinary. When we are trying to improve something, we should expect resistance. And if there is no resistance, then that means either the resistance has gone underground, right, which has gone into COVID stage, or people have not understood the why. You know, what is this change? What is this? How is this going to affect me, people have not understood what you're talking about. So when we explain things, we should naturally expect resistance, and resistance helps in improving, you know, what is whatever we are trying to implement, you know, whether it is like a ERP implementation or, you know, Lean Six Sigma, or a transformation project, digital transformation, anything that we are trying to do, if people are resisting or if people are expressing concerns, it's a good thing. That's what I have learned over the years. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 38:50 at least, at least then they're open and they're talking to you about it, which is important. So how do you deal with the person who says, you know, like, like, Bill, I've been involved in continuous improvement, and maybe they really have, but you're talking about change, but in reality, what we have is working, and I'm not convinced that changing it is really going to make a difference. And you know, how do you deal with that?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 39:21 Yep, again, you know, over the years, I have so many stories this. This story, again, is some of the organizations I have worked in this. This particular person was, was saying the same thing. You know, it was one of the TETRA pack manufacturing lines, you have seen the TETRA pack, right? So the the TETRA pack where juice is packed, or milk is packed, or any beverage is packed, right? So these Tetra packs, when they were producing those Tetra packs of juice, they had. An issue of the juice packs being either overweight or underweight. So they had this continuous issue on the line, not just one line, but I think three or four of the lines, so consistently, it would be either overweight or underweight. And if you are consistent, if you are having the overweight or underweight, you would be audited, and you would get into all sorts of trouble. And moreover, you know, you're losing money if you if the pack is overweight and if the pack is underweight, somebody can, can, you know, file a claim. Customer complaints would increase. So this, this particular line manager, he said, you know he was, he was avoiding me. And I know that he would, he would avoid me so, but he, you know, at that point of time, he had no choice. So he said, kwaja, I have a few ideas, you know, I don't before, you know, you come and tell me, you know, continuous improvement, blah, blah, blah. I have a few ideas. I want to test them. And he gave me, he gave me, you know, the his thought process, and he wanted to try that before, you know, he before he agreed to listen to me. So I said, Bob, I'm all for it, please. Please, go ahead and let's see whether you know what you're trying to do. Works or not. So basically, in, you know, in our language, what we call it as as an experiment in continuous improvement terminology, we call it as an experiment. He was trying to do, you know, an experiment with one factor at a time, meaning that, you know, he would try to change one variable, and he would try to see whether that has any impact on, you know, the over overfilled packs or under filled packs. So he wanted to change one variable at a time, and there were three, four variables at that time, which he thought were, you know, suspects. So he wanted to change those variables and see what the impact would be. So I told him, Bob, yeah, let's, let's, let's try that. And I told him, you know, very politely, if that doesn't work, would you be willing to try what I am asking you to do? Because I have an idea. Also, he said, Yeah, let's, let's, let's do that. So I worked with him. I worked with him on the line, with his supervisors also. And he tried, you know, one factor at a time. He trained. He changed this, he changed that. It didn't work. So reluctantly. But then the good thing was, he was open minded also, reluctantly, he said, Okay, let's, let's sit in my office and let's talk. So I told him about a concept called Design of Experiments, DOE, in that, in that me using that you know, methodology, you can basically, you can basically have three, four factors which you can vary them simultaneously, and then see the impact on over packing and under packing. So when I explained to him, when I when I taught him about the concept him and his supervisors and the line operators, he said, Yeah, let's let's try. Let's see if this works. And at the end of the day, we were both trying to improve the process. We were both trying to get rid of this problem, sure, so we should be rolling. And then it worked within, within a few days, the problem got resolved. So what I learned from that is, sometimes, you know, you need to let people you know hit the wall before you offer them a solution. So that's something that I have learned. But of course, you know, in this case, it was not such a costly mistake. It was not, it was not like a disaster, but it was the controlled disaster. So, so what   Michael Hingson ** 43:28 was the actual change? What what change was made that fixed the problem? Or what was your idea that fixed the problem because he was changing variable at a time, but that was one example   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 43:39 at a time. Yep. So we had to do the root cause analysis. And through the root cause analysis, whatever variables that he was going after were not the root causes because he was not using a structured methodology. Okay, when we use the structured methodology, we went into root cause analysis. We did a structured like a fish bone diagram. I don't want to go into the technical details, but we did the in depth root cause analysis, and then we did something called as a design of experiment, where we chose three factors and we varied it simultaneous, so it is a controlled experiment which we did, and immediately, you know, it's not that you know you would do that, and you would get result. One month later, you would get results immediately, you would see the result immediately when you do that experiment versus what he did, it involved a certain bit of time. It would take one week for us to see a change. So when I showed him this and this versus this, he was really impressed. And from that day onwards, he became a huge supporter of CI, in fact, you know, the plant in which I was working in, you know, with the support of, you know, one of the plant managers, Tim, his name, I'm I'm still, you know, in touch with him, and you know we share thoughts with each other. I see him as a huge mentor. Also, you know, we got plant of the Year Award for a plant to talk. About to be shut down, back in 2009 so that's, that's, you know, how we were able to, you know, build the, get the buy in from all the line managers and, you know, get started on the continuous improvement journey. Because the the the management had told that if you don't improve within a few months, you would be shut down. So we all work together, and we did experiments like this, and we were able to turn around a plant, of course, you know, not just me, so I just played one small role in that we did as a team. It was a team effort,   Michael Hingson ** 45:34 and that's how you really overcome resistance to change when, when people see that you bring something to the table that works, then they're probably more apt to want to listen to you.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 45:49 Yep, indeed. We need to know what we're talking about. You know that that builds trust? Definitely.   Michael Hingson ** 45:54 Yeah. And then the issue is that you what you're talking about is is, in a sense, different than what they understand, and it's a matter of establishing credibility. Yes, which is, which is pretty cool. Well, so tell me about your books. You've written two books, and you've written I n, s, p, i R, E, and you've, you've written another book, tell us about those.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 46:25 Yes, so I, you know, I have always wanted to share my knowledge, and I have always been sharing my knowledge, you know, through training, through coaching, I have conducted so many training sessions, so many and I have learned also, you know, from from shop floor employees, frontline employees, from middle managers. I have learned so much from them. And also executives, top executives, you know, leaders from various industries. You know whether it is manufacturing or logistics or, you know, back offices, banking, you know, pure manufacturing or logistics container, container shipping business, or aluminum rolling business. So I wanted to write this book to share my knowledge, because when I see that change management or change is being implemented very poorly, that really frustrates me. So I wanted to share this, and I have seen, you know, numerous books being written on this. You know, numerous frameworks, also, you name it. You know, there are so many books out there. What I wanted to do is give a simple framework, which is, I, N, s, p, i, R, E, which is, you know, if you have to implement change you need to inspire employees. There are no two ways about it. If we can talk about logic, we can talk about change management, we can talk about what's in it. For me, everything, but in my experience, if anyone is, if any employee or if any individual is not inspired by the change, the change is not going to go anywhere. They may do out of compliance, but we will not really get their hearts in it. And that's why I, you know, came up with this framework called Inspire, which is I basically is inspired the need for change in employees. N is navigate the organization and build a coalition. And stands for that. S is to surface resistance proactively, meaning, as we discussed, don't wait for resistance to hit you. You know when you least expect it, and then, and then, you know the change goes nowhere. Surface resistance proactively. And P is plan, your implementation. You know, when I say plan, not just, you know, like a, like a 20 step bullet point, there are so many plans that need, that need to come together, like a communication plan, resistance management plan, a training plan. There are so many plans that need to work together. And again, depending on the complexity of the change, you know, I never advocate, you know, over complicating stuff. And then you have, I, which is implementation When, when, you know, this is where rubber meets the road, if we don't implement the change in a structured way, you know, leaders are not role modeling on the shop floor. Leaders are just, you know, we call it as EMR. And this is, again, from another framework called Aim. Aim, you know, basically what we what we mean here is you can express. Leaders can express about the change, role model the change and reinforce the change. EMR, so if leaders are just expressing the change, it will lead to one times the improvement, but if leaders are role modeling the change, it will lead to three. Times the change acceleration. And if leaders are reinforcing the change, it will lead to 10 times accelerating the change. So that's what I talk about, in terms of implementation, you know, experimentation and stuff, which is i, and then you have reinforce and sustain, which is r, and then E stands for evaluating and learning. You know, after we close a change initiative, after we signed off on a change initiative, have what have we learned from it? What have we learned from it, and what, what if we had a, if we had a chance to make a do over, what would we do differently? What have we learned from it? And what would we do differently, and if we were to do implement another change, what are the learnings that we can take from this change that we have implemented and apply the learnings in our next change? And also, you know when, when leadership transitions, many, many changes, what? What happens? And you know this is what I have experienced, and this frustrates me a lot as well. Is, you know, when leadership changes, the change gets, you know, messed up. I want to say fucked up, but you know, and I don't know if I'm allowed to say that. You know, every leader, every leader, wants to come in and you know, right or wrong? You know, I'm not blaming a leader wants to leave their mark in the organization, which is good, but what they what they inadvertently do, is undo the change which their predecessors have done. And then people get confused, you know, they say it as a flavor of the month. Or they say, Okay, let's wait until this leader moves on, so that, you know, we can, we can, you know, just wait until this change passes away and it leads to, you know, production of morale and lots of issues. So this is what I talk about in my book, as well, how to avoid these, these situations. So it's like a practical framework where you know which anybody can take and apply to any change of any complexity, and you know if, even if it is very, very simple change which is going to take maybe 10 days or five days only, they can quickly go through the Inspire framework and see, you know, what are the gaps and whether we have, whether we are implementing the change in a proper, structured way. And these are in this is just a framework, you know, and you know, we don't have to use all the tools that I have mentioned in the book. We can pick and choose the tools which are relevant for the change that we are trying to implement.   Michael Hingson ** 52:38 What is the the key to making change sustainable when maybe leadership changes or the company environment shifts,   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 52:48 yes. So, you know, as Dr Deming said, constancy of purpose, right? So, so if I'm a leader, Mike, and you know, if I'm changing my role, and if I'm going to, you know another function or another department, whether in the same organization or in a different organization, and let's say that you know, Mike, you are taking over my role. What is the constancy of purpose? You know? Are we? Does the organization, you know, it starts from our organization level. Does the organization have a constancy of purpose, and is it aligned with the vision and mission and whatever I have, whatever changes I have implemented, have I communicated them to you? Is there a smooth handover between me and you, so that you understand what are the changes I have done, what are the improvements I have done, and you know how you can take it forward and continuously improve upon it. So one thing is completely undoing and the other thing is continuously improving upon it. So that, you know, people see it as a natural, continuous improvement, rather than continue, rather than, you know, abruptly undoing something and then, and then, you know, starting from, you know, scratch, starting from scratch, and saying that, Oh, no, no, no, no, whatever this person did is total crap. And now we are going to change or revolutionize the whole organization where, which, you know, nine out of 10 times is, is, you know, you're just rehashing what this person has done into something new, into, you know, a different framework or a different bottle, however you want to frame it. So the there has to be a smooth hand over. So that's, that's, you know, point number one, and point number two is the the employees, the middle managers have the middle managers and the in the whole leadership team. They have an obligation. They have a accountability to make sure that, you know, they are aligned, to make sure that if one of their leadership team members is moving on, whenever a new leadership team member comes on board, to onboard them in a structured way, not to leave them, you know, hanging, not to, you know, not to let that person. Know, implement his or her own way completely. You know, let on board them and let them know what has happened in the organization. How they can, you know, continuously improve upon it. I'm not saying that, you know, revolutionary change is not required all. I'm saying that there are times when a revolution is required, but most of the times, continuous improvement is good enough. You know, when, when we, when we continuously improve. It keeps the continuity going. And people don't see it as you know, change after change after change. You know, we don't, we don't induce change fatigue in the organizations if we, if we do it as a continuum   Michael Hingson ** 55:40 makes sense, and it's all about and it's all about communication, yep,   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 55:44 indeed. And that's where, you know, that's why I have written my second book, which is, which is about active listening. You know, I'm a bad listener, I have to be honest. So I used to be a very, very bad listener. Now I'm just a bad listener. So I have continuously improved on my listening skills, and at least I know now that you know, I'm aware of my how I need to improve my listening skills. So over the years, I have done, I have I have learned the techniques of how to listen and when and when I say listen, it is not to many people, many of us, you know, even even now. Also sometimes I catch myself, you know, trying to listen to reply or listen to respond. So when I catch myself doing that, I consciously, you know, try to listen to the person. So again, in this book, I have shared, you know, the the techniques which would help anybody to become a better listener, which, you know, one is one of the requirements for being a great leader, how to listen to people and how to listen to people, truly, truly listen to people. So I talk about simple, simple techniques in the book. You know, for example, paraphrasing, remembering, listening without judgment, right? Or suspending judgment, as I say so. You know, I rank these techniques in increasing order of complexity, suspending judgment being the most difficult, you know when, when someone starts speaking, or, you know, even if, even when we see someone immediately, in the first five seconds, we judge that person. And, you know, right or wrong, we judge that we and in this book, also, I talk about, you know, why we are prone to judging people, and why we have such a such a difficult time in suspending judgment. So if we are aware that you know, let's say that you know when I'm talking to you, Mike, if I catch myself judging you right, so at least I know that I'm Judging You right. So at least I can I know that I'm judging you, and I should not do that. I should listen to you, and I should try to understand where you are coming from, instead of saying, instead of just thinking in my mind, oh, whatever Mike is saying is it doesn't make any sense. So maybe initially it may not make sense. But you know, when we open our ears, we have two years, and that's for a reason, and only one mouth. So we need to listen, and we need to completely understand where the other person is coming from, whether you know it is in personal life or in work life. You know, when we, if we don't listen to the teams whom we are managing, and if we just say, you know, do as I say, it's my way or the highway, people will do because you know you are their line manager. But it won't last long. No, the minute you, you know, change your team, or the minute you go out, people will, people will be, you know, good riddance. So, so that's what they'll be thinking. So how to listen to people, and also it will help the leader to grow. You know, over the years, when I listen to my wife, I have understood my own shortcomings, and if I had listened to her 20 years back, maybe I would have been a different person. Maybe, maybe I would have been a more mature person. So this is what, you know, I talk about in the in the book as well. How can we truly, truly listen? And some techniques like paraphrasing. You know, when, when our mind wanders, you know, it will be good to paraphrase the person to whom you're you're speaking so that you know you you remember, so remembering, paraphrasing, empathy, for example, you know, not just talking about KPI, KPI KPIs to the team members. Understand how they're doing. You know, are they having any personal issues? How is their family? You know, work is not, you know what, what? Work is a part of our life. But you know, we spend eight to 10 hours at at a workplace. So we need to know the team members whom we are managing, and we need to listen to them. If somebody is, you know, performing badly, right? It's very easy to give them a negative feedback. But. So if we listen to them, and if they feel heard, maybe they are going through something, or maybe they are not getting enough support. If we listen to them, and if we create that environment of active listening in the whole team, suspending judgment and listening actively, then we create a more stronger bond, and the team would would become like a world class team. This has been my experience. So this is what I have shared in my, in my in my second book,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:29 and certainly words to to remember. Well, we have been doing this an hour now, and I think it's probably time that we we end it for the day. But if people want to reach out to you. How can they do that?   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 1:00:43 Well, I am there on on LinkedIn, and people can reach me through email, and I'll be more than happy to, you know, respond to anything they need. And I'm I know if people want to reach out to me to conduct any training sessions, my website is also their journey towards excellence. You know where I have my offerings. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:04 what is the website? What is the website called, again, journey towards excellence. Journey towards excellence.com, okay, and your email address, khwaja.moinuddin@gmail.com and spell that, if you would   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 1:01:21 Yes, please. K, H, W, A, j, A, dot, M, O, I n, u, d, d, I n@gmail.com,   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:32 great. Well, I hope people will reach out. I think you've offered a lot of great insights and inspiration for people. I appreciate hearing all that you had to say, and I knew I was going to learn a lot today and have and I always tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as everyone else, I'm not doing my job right. So I really appreciate your time, and it's now getting late where you are, so we're going to let you go. But I want to thank you again for being here, and I do want to thank everyone who is listening and watching us today. We really appreciate it. If you would, I'd love it. If you'd give us a five star review. Wherever you're watching us and listening to us, if you'd like to talk to me or email me about the episode and give us your thoughts, feel free to do so. At Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, or go to our podcast page. Michael Hinkson, that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, love to hear from you if any of you have any thoughts as to someone else who might make a good podcast guest. And quad you as well. Would love it if you let us know we're always looking for more people to come on and be guests on the show. But again, kwaja, I want to thank you for being here. This has been wonderful.   Dr Khwaja Moinuddin ** 1:02:47 Thank you. Thank you so much, Mike, and it's been a real pleasure talking to you, and it's an honor to be part of your podcast. I wish I had met you earlier and learned I would have learned so much from you, I would definitely, definitely, definitely, you know, reach out to you to learn more. And you know, thank you for the opportunity. Thank you definitely for the opportunity.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:03:15   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to inter

The above title does not do Dan Swift justice. Dan also has his own podcast, successful Youtube channel and he has released seven music albums. Talk about being unstoppable! I met Dan when I appeared as a guest on his podcast, Time We Discuss and I knew he would contribute to a fascinating story here.   Dan grew up with an interest in music. For a time he thought he wanted to write music for video games. Along the way he left that idea behind and after graduating from college he began working at designing websites. He has made that into his fulltime career.   As he grew as a website designer and later as a supervisor for a school system coordinating and creating the school sites Dan took an interest in accessibility of the web. We talk quite a bit about that during our time together. His observations are fascinating and right on where web access for persons with disabilities is concerned.   We also talk about Dan's podcast including some stories of guests and what inspires Dan from his interviews. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I.       About the Guest:   Originally wanting to write music for video games or become an audio engineer, Dan Swift graduated from a small Liberal Arts college with a degree in Music Composition (Bachelor of Arts) and Music Recording Technology (Bachelor of Music).  Dan went on to release seven EP albums between 2003 and 2024. Most recently, "Parallels" dropped on Leap Day, 2024.  Dan has always had a passion for shaking up genres between Eps writing classical, electronic, and modern rock music.   While creating music has always been a passion, Dan took a more traditional professional path as a web developer. While on this path, Dan had a lot of experience with accessibility standards as it relates to the web and he values accessibility and equity for everyone both inside and outside the digital workspace. Having received his MBA during COVID, Dan went on to a leadership position where he continues to make a difference leading a team of tech-savvy web professionals.   In early 2024, I created a podcast and YouTube channel called "Time We Discuss" which focuses on career exploration and discovery. The channel and podcast are meant for anyone that is feeling lost professionally and unsure of what is out there for them. Dan feels that it is important for people to discover their professional passion, whatever it is that lights them up on the inside, and chase it. So many people are unfulfilled in their careers, yet it doesn't have to be this way.   When not working, Dan enjoys spending time with his wife and three kids. They are a very active family often going to various extracurricular events over the years including flag football, soccer, gymnastics, and school concerts.  Dan's wife is very active with several nonprofit organizations including those for the betterment of children and homelessness.  Dan enjoys playing the piano, listening to podcasts, and listening to music.  Dan is very naturally curious and is a slave to a train of never-ending thoughts.   Ways to connect with Dan:   Time We Discuss on YouTube Time We Discuss on Spotify Time We Discuss on Twitter/X Time We Discuss on Instagram Time We Discuss on BlueSky   Time We Discuss Website Dan Swift Music Website   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:20 Well, hi everybody. Welcome once again. Wherever you may be, to unstoppable mindset, I am your host, Mike hingson, sometimes I say Michael hingson, and people have said, Well, is it Mike or Michael? And the answer is, it doesn't really matter. It took a master's degree in physics and 10 years in sales for me to realize that if I said Mike Hingson on the phone, people kept calling me Mr. Kingston, and I couldn't figure out why, so I started saying Michael Hingson, and they got the hinckson part right, but it doesn't matter to me. So anyway, Mike hingson, or Michael hingson, glad you're with us, wherever you are, and our guest today is Dan Swift, who has his own pine podcast, and it was actually through that podcast that we met, and I told him, but I wouldn't do it with him and be on his podcast unless he would be on unstoppable mindset. And here he is. Dan is a person who writes music, he's an engineer. He does a lot of work with web design and so on, and we're going to get into all that. So Dan, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Dan Swift ** 02:25 Michael, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. I am. I'm super excited.   Michael Hingson ** 02:30 Well, looking forward to getting to spend more time with you. We did yours time to discuss, and now we get this one. So it's always kind of fun. So, and Dan is in Pennsylvania, so we're talking across the continent, which is fine. It's amazing what we can do with electronics these days, telling us not like the good old days of the covered wagon. What can I say? So, So Dan, why don't you tell us a little bit about kind of the early Dan, growing up and all that.   Dan Swift ** 02:57 Oh, geez. How far   Michael Hingson ** 02:58 back to go? Oh, as far as you want to go,   Dan Swift ** 03:02 Well, okay, so I am, I am the youngest of five. Grew up just outside of Philadelphia as being the youngest. You know, there are certain perks that go along with that. I get to experience things that my parents would have previous said no to the older siblings. And you know how it is with with, you know, if you have more than one kid, technically, you get a little more relaxed as you have more but then I also had the other benefit of, you know, hearing the expression, there are young ears in the room, I will tell you later. So I kind of got some of that too. But I grew up outside of Philadelphia, had a passion for music. Pretty early on. I was never good at any sports. Tried a number of things. And when I landed on music, I thought, you know, this is this is something that I can do. I seem to have a natural talent for it. And I started, I tried playing the piano when I was maybe eight or nine years old. That didn't pan out. Moved on to the trumpet when I was nine or 10. Eventually ended up picking up guitar, bass, guitar, double bass revisited piano later in life, but that's the musical side of things. Also, when I was young, you know, I had a passion for role playing games, Dungeons and Dragons, was really big when I was a teenager, so I was super excited for that. Yeah, that's, that's kind of those, those memories kind of forced me, or kind of shaped me into the person that I am today. I'm very light hearted, very easy going, and I just try to enjoy life.   Michael Hingson ** 04:30 I played some computer games when computers came along and I started fiddling with them, the games I usually played were text based games. I've never really played Dungeons and Dragons and some of those. And I I'm sure that there are accessible versions of of some of that, but I remember playing games like adventure. You remember? Have you heard of adventure? I have, yeah. So that was, that was fun. Info con made. Well, they had Zork, which was really the same as adventure, but they. At a whole bunch of games. And those are, those are fun. And I think all of those games, I know a lot of adults would probably say kids spend too much time on some of them, but some of these games, like the the text based games, I thought really were very good at expanding one's mind, and they made you think, which is really what was important to me? Yeah, I   Dan Swift ** 05:21 completely agree with that too. Because you'd be put in these situations where, you know true, you're trying to solve some kind of puzzle, and you're trying to think, Okay, well, that didn't work, or that didn't work, and you try all these different things, then you decide to leave and come back to and you realize later, like you didn't have something that you needed to progress forward, or something like that. But, but it really gets the brain going, trying to create with these, uh, come up with these creative solutions to progress the game forward. Yeah, which   Michael Hingson ** 05:43 and the creative people who made them in the first place? What did they? Yeah, they, I don't know where they, where they spent their whole time that they had nothing to do but to create these games. But hey, it worked. It sure. Did you know you do it well. So you went off to college. Where'd you go? Sure,   Dan Swift ** 06:02 I went to a small liberal arts college, Lebanon Valley College in Pennsylvania. It's near, it's near Hershey. It was, it was weird in that my the entire school was about half the size of my entire high school. So that was very, very weird. And then you talk to these other people. And it's like, my high school was, you know, very large by comparison. But for me, it was like, well, high school, that's what I knew. But yeah, it was I went to, I went to 11 Valley College near Hershey. I studied, I was a double major. I studied music composition and music recording,   Michael Hingson ** 06:35 okay, and, oh, I've got to go back and ask before we continue that. So what were some of the real perks you got as a kid that your your older siblings didn't get?   Dan Swift ** 06:45 Oh, geez, okay. I mean,   Michael Hingson ** 06:49 couldn't resist, yeah, probably, probably   Dan Swift ** 06:51 some of the more cliche things. I probably got to spend the night at a friend's house earlier than my oldest brother. For instance, I know my parents were a little more concerned about finances. So I know my oldest brother didn't get a chance to go away to college. He did community college instead. And then, kind of, my sister was a very similar thing. And then once we got, like, about halfway down, you know, me and my two other brothers, we all had the opportunity to go away to college. So I think that was, that was definitely one of the perks. If I was the oldest, I was the oldest, I probably wouldn't have had that opportunity with my family. Got   Michael Hingson ** 07:24 it well, so you went off and you got a matt a bachelor's in music, composition and music recording. So that brought you to what you were interested in, part, which was the engineering aspect of it. But that certainly gave you a pretty well rounded education. Why those two why composition and recording? Sure.   Dan Swift ** 07:43 So if we talk about the music first at that time, so this is like the the late 90s, early 2000s any kind of digital music that was out there really was, was MIDI based, and anyone that was around that time and paying attention, it was like these very like, like that music kind of sound to it. So there wasn't a whole lot going on with MIDI. I'm sorry, with music as far as how great it sounded, or I shouldn't say, how great it sounded, the the instruments that are triggered by MIDI, they didn't sound all that great. But around that time, there was this game that came out, Final Fantasy seven, and I remember hearing the music for that, and it was all, it was all electronic, and it was just blown away by how fantastic it sounded. And And around that time, I thought, you know, it'd be really cool to get into writing music for video games. And that was something I really kind of toyed with. So that was kind of in the back of my head. But also, at the time, I was in a band, like a rock band, and I thought, you know, I'm going to school. They have this opportunity to work as a music engineer, which is something I really wanted to do at the time. And I thought, free studio time. My band will be here. This will be awesome. And it wasn't until I got there that I discovered that they also had the music composition program. It was a I was only there maybe a week or two, and once I discovered that, I was like, Well, this is gonna be great, you know, I'll learn to write. Know, I'll learn to write music. I can write for video games. I'll get engineering to go with it. This is gonna be fantastic. Speaking   Michael Hingson ** 09:07 of electronic music, did you ever see a science fiction movie called The Forbidden Planet? I did not. Oh, it's music. It's, it's not really music in the sense of what what we call, but it's all electronic. You gotta, you gotta find it. I'm sure you can find it somewhere. It's called the Forbidden Planet. Walter pigeon is in it. But the music and the sounds fit the movie, although it's all electronic, and electronic sounding pretty interesting.   Dan Swift ** 09:37 Now, is that from, I know, like in the 50s, 60s, there was a lot of experiments. Okay, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 09:45 yeah, and, but again, it fit the movie, which was the important part. So it certainly wasn't music like John Williams today and and in the 80s and all that. But again, for the movie, it fit. Very well, which is kind of cool. Yeah,   Dan Swift ** 10:02 I'll definitely have to check that out. I remember when I was in school, we talked about like that, that avant garde kind of style of the the 50s, 60s. And there was a lot of weird stuff going on with electronics, electronic music. Um, so I'm very curious to see, uh, to check this out, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 10:14 You have to let me know what, what you find, what you think about it, when you get to chance to watch it, absolutely or actually, I I may have a copy. If I do, I'll put it in a dropbox folder and send you a link. Fantastic. So you graduated. Now, when did you graduate?   Dan Swift ** 10:32 Sure, so I graduated in 2003 okay,   Michael Hingson ** 10:35 so you graduated, and then what did you do? So,   Dan Swift ** 10:41 backing up about maybe 612, months prior to that, I decided I did not want to be a I didn't want to write music for video games. I also did not want to work in a recording studio. And the reason for this was for music. It was, I didn't it was, it was something I really, really enjoyed, and I didn't want to be put in a position where I had to produce music on demand. I didn't want to I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to lose my hobby, lose my passion in that way. So I decided that was out. And then also, when it came to working in a studio, if I wanted to be the engineer that I really wanted to be, I would have to be in a place where the music scene was really happening. So I'd have to be in like Philadelphia or Los Angeles or Nashville or deep in Philly or something like that. And I do not like the cities. I don't feel comfortable in the city. So I was like, that's not really for me either. I could work in like a suburb studio. But I was like, not, not for me. I don't, not for me. So when I graduated college, I ended up doing freelance web work. I had met through, through a mutual friend I was I was introduced to by a mutual friend, to a person that was looking for a new web designer, developer. They lost their person, and they were looking for someone to take over with that. And at the time, I did a little bit of experience doing that, from when I was in high school, kind of picked it up on the side, just kind of like as a hobby. But I was like, Ah, I'll give this a shot. So I started actually doing that freelance for a number of years after graduation. I also worked other jobs that was, like, kind of like nowhere, like dead end kind of jobs. I did customer service work for a little bit. I was a teacher with the American Cross for a little bit, a little bit of this and that, just trying to find my way. But at the same time, I was doing freelance stuff, and nothing related to music and nothing related to technology,   Michael Hingson ** 12:29 well, so you learned HTML coding and all that other stuff that goes along with all that. I gather, I   Dan Swift ** 12:35 sure did, I sure didn't. At the time, CSS was just kind of popular, yeah, so that. And then I learned, I learned JavaScript a little bit. And, you know, I had a very healthy attitude when it when it came to accepting new clients and projects, I always tried to learn something new. Anytime someone gave me a new a new request came in, it was like, Okay, well, I already know how to do this by doing it this way. But how can I make this better? And that was really the way that I really propelled myself forward in the in the digital, I should say, when it comes to development or design.   Michael Hingson ** 13:05 Okay, so you ended up really seriously going into website development and so on.   Dan Swift ** 13:15 I did. So I continued doing freelance. And then about five years after I graduated, I started working as an audio visual technician, and also was doing computer tech stuff as part of the role as well. And while I was there, I ended up developing some web applications for myself to use that I could use to interact with our like projectors and stuff like that. Because they were on, they were all in the network, so I could interact with them using my wait for it, iPod Touch, there you go. So that was, you know, I kind of like started to blend those two together. I was really interested in the web at the time, you know, because I was still doing the freelance, I really wanted to move forward and kind of find a full time position doing that. So I ended up pursuing that more and just trying to refine those skills. And it wasn't until about about five years later, I ended up working as a full time web developer, and then kind of moved forward from   Michael Hingson ** 14:09 there, iPod Touch, what memories? And there are probably bunches of people who don't even know what that is today. That   Dan Swift ** 14:16 is so true, and at the time that was cutting edge technology,   Michael Hingson ** 14:21 yeah, it was not accessible. So I didn't get to own one, because was later than that that Steve Jobs was finally kind of pushed with the threat of a lawsuit into making things accessible. And then they did make the iPhone, the iPod, the Mac and so on, and iTunes U and other things like that, accessible. And of course, what Steve Jobs did, what Apple did, which is what Microsoft eventually sort of has done as well, but he built accessibility into the operating system. So anybody who has an Apple device today. Troy actually has a device that can be made accessible by simply turning on the accessibility mode. Of course, if you're going to turn it on, you better learn how to use it, because the gestures are different. But it took a while, but, but that did happen. But by that time, I, you know, I had other things going on, and so I never did get an iPod and and wasn't able to make it work, but that's okay. But it's like the CD has gone away and the iPod has gone away, and so many things and DVDs have gone away.   Dan Swift ** 15:31 Yes, so true. So true. You know, just as soon as we start to get used to them   Michael Hingson ** 15:35 gone. I think there is, well, maybe it's close. There was a blockbuster open up in Oregon. But again, Blockbuster Video, another one, and I think somebody's trying to bring them back, but I do see that vinyl records are still being sold in various places by various people. Michael Buble just put out a new album, The Best of Buble, and it's available, among other things, in vinyl. So the old turntables, the old record players, and you can actually buy his album as a record and play it, which is kind of cool. Yeah, they've been   Dan Swift ** 16:07 very big with marketing, too. It's been kind of a marketing, I don't want to say gimmick, but in that realm, you kind of like, hey, you know, this is also available in vinyl, and you try to get the people that are like the audio files to really check it out. I never really took the vinyl personally, but I know plenty of people that have sworn by it. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 16:25 I've heard a number of people say that the audio actually is better on vinyl than typical MP three or other similar file formats. Yep,   Dan Swift ** 16:35 yep. I had a friend growing up, and actually, I shouldn't say growing up, so I was already, like, in college or post college, but a buddy of mine, Craig, he was all about vinyl, and he had, he had the nice, the amplifier, and the nice, I think even, like, a certain kind of needle that you would get for the record player. And you know, you'd have to sit in the sweet spot to really enjoy it, and and I respect that, but um, for me, it was like, I didn't, I didn't hear that much of a difference between a CD and vinyl. Um, not very. Didn't have the opportunity to AB test them. But now I will say comparing a CD to like an mp three file, for instance, even a high quality mp three file, I can tell the difference on that Sure. I would never, you know, I'd use the MP threes for convenience. But if I were to have it my way, man, I'd have the uncompressed audio, no doubt about it, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 17:27 wave forms, yep, yep, yeah. Obviously that's that's going to give you the real quality. Of course, it takes a lot more memory, but nevertheless, if you've got the space it, it really makes a lot of sense to do because mp three isn't going to be nearly as high a level quality.   Dan Swift ** 17:43 Absolutely, absolutely true. And that the way I rationalize it to myself. It's like, well, if I'm going to be though in the car or probably walking around and listening to music, I'm going to be getting all kinds of sounds from outside. Anyway, it kind of offsets the poor quality of the MP justify it.   Michael Hingson ** 17:56 That's true. Well, you know when and mp three is convenient if you want to put a bunch of stuff in a well on a memory card and be able to play it all, because if you have uncompressed audio, it does take a lot more space, and you can't put as much on a card, or you got to get a much bigger card. And now we're getting pretty good sized memory cards. But still, the reality is that that for most purposes, not all mp three will suffice.   Dan Swift ** 18:26 That is true. That is true. And I think too, you have a that the next battle is going to be mp three or a streaming,   Michael Hingson ** 18:33 yeah, yeah, that's going to be fun, isn't it? Yeah? Boy. What a world well. So one of the things I noticed in reading your bio and so on is that you got involved to a great degree in dealing with accessibility on the web. Tell me about that.   Dan Swift ** 18:55 Absolutely. Michael, so I've very strong opinions of accessibility. And this really comes back to, you know, I was, I was at my job, and I was only there as a full time developer. I wasn't there all that long, maybe a year, maybe two, and my supervisor came over to me and she said, you know, we want to start to make things more accessible. And this is like, this is like, 1012, years ago at this point, and I was like, okay, you know, and I did my little bit of research, and there wasn't a whole lot going on at the time. I don't think WCAG was a thing back then. It may have been. I can't remember if 508 was a thing at the in the Bible. It was okay, yeah. So I was doing my research, and, you know, you learn about the alt tags, and it's like, okay, well, we're doing that, okay. Then you learn about forms, and it's like, okay, well, they need to have labels, okay, but, but the turning point was this, Michael, we had a person on staff that was blind, and I was put in touch with this person, and I asked them to review like, different, different web applications. Applications we made, or forms or web pages. And the one day, I can't remember if he volunteered or if I asked, but essentially the request was, can this person come into our physical space and review stuff for us in person? And that experience was life changing for me, just watching him navigate our different web pages or web applications or forms, and seeing how he could go through it, see what was a problem, what was not a problem, was just an incredible experience. And I said this before, when given the opportunity to talk about this, I say to other developers and designers, if you ever have even the slightest opportunity to interact with someone, if they if, if you meet someone and they are using, let me, let me rephrase that, if you have the opportunity to watch someone that is blind using a navigate through the web, take, take that opportunity. Is just an amazing, amazing experience, and you draw so much from it. As a developer or designer, so very strong opinions about it, I'm all about inclusivity and making things equal for everyone on the web, and that was just my introductory experience about a dozen years ago.   Michael Hingson ** 21:07 And so what have you done with it all since? Sure, so   Dan Swift ** 21:11 with our website, we went from having about a million success criterion failures, and we've gotten it all the way down to, I think my last check, I think was maybe about 10,000 so it was huge, huge change. It's hard to get everything as because as content changes and newspaper, as new pages come online, it's hard to keep everything 100% accessible, but we know what to look for. You know, we're looking for the right contrast. We're looking for, you know, the all tags. We're looking for hierarchy with the headers. We're making sure our forms are accessible. We're making sure there aren't any keyboard traps, you know, things that most people, most web visitors, don't even think about, you know, or developers even thinking about, until you know, you need to think about them   Michael Hingson ** 22:00 well and other things as well, such as with other kinds of disabilities. If you're a person with epilepsy, for example, you don't want to go to a website and find blinking elements, or at least, you need to have a way to turn them off, yeah.   Dan Swift ** 22:13 Or or audio that starts automatically, or videos that start automatically, yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 22:19 So many different things, or video that starts automatically, and there's music, but there's no audio, so you so a blind person doesn't even know what the video is, yes, which, which happens all too often. But the the reality is that with the Americans with Disabilities Act, it's it's been interesting, because some lawyers have tried to fight the courts and say, well, but the ADA came out long before the internet, so we didn't know anything about the internet, so it doesn't apply. And finally, the Department of Justice is taking some stands to say, yes, it does, because the internet is a place of business, but it's going to have to be codified, I think, to really bring it home. But some courts have sided with that argument and said, Well, yeah, the ADA is too old, so it doesn't, doesn't matter. And so we still see so many challenges with the whole idea of access. And people listening to this podcast know that, among other things I work with a company called accessibe. Are you familiar with them? I am, Yep, yeah, and, and so that's been an interesting challenge. But what makes access to be interesting is that, because it has an artificial intelligent widget that can monitor a website, and at the at the low end of of costs. It's like $490 a year. And it may not pick up everything that a body needs, but it will, will do a lot. And going back to what you said earlier, as websites change, as they evolve, because people are doing things on their website, which they should be doing, if you've got a static website, you never do anything with it. That's not going to do you very much good. But if it's changing constantly, the widget, at least, can look at it and make a lot of the changes to keep the website accessible. The other part of it is that it can tell you what it can't do, which is cool,   Dan Swift ** 24:16 yeah, that's a really good point. You know, there's a lot of tools that are out there. They do monitor the stuff for you, you know, like we on our on our site, we have something that runs every night and it gives us a report every day. But then there are things that it doesn't always check, or it might, it might get a false positive, because it sees that like, you know, this element has a particular color background and the text is a particular color as well. But there's, you know, maybe a gradient image that lies between them, or an image that lies between them. So it's actually okay, even though the tool says it's not, or something like that. So, yeah, those automated tools, but you gotta also look at it. You know, a human has to look at those as well.   Michael Hingson ** 24:52 Yeah, it's a challenge. But the thing that I think is important with, well, say, use accessibe. An example is that I think every web developer should use accessibe. And the reason I think that is not that accessibe will necessarily do a perfect job with with the access widget, but what it will do is give you something that is constantly monitored, and even if it only makes about 50% of the website more usable because there are complex graphics and other things that it can't do, the reality is, why work harder than you have to, and if accessibility can do a lot of the work for you without you having to do it, it doesn't mean that you need to charge less or you need to do things any different, other than the fact that you save a lot of time on doing part of it because the widget does it for you. Absolutely, absolutely.   Dan Swift ** 25:47 That's that's a really, really good point too, having that tool, that tool in your tool belt, you know, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 25:55 yeah. And it makes a lot of sense to do. And there are, there are people who complain about products like accessibe, saying artificial intelligence can't do it. It's too new. You gotta start somewhere. And the reality is that accessibe, in of itself, does a lot, and it really makes websites a lot better than they otherwise were. And some people say, Well, we've gone to websites and accessibe doesn't really seem to make a difference on the site. Maybe not. But even if your website is pretty good up front and you use accessibe, it's that time that you change something that you don't notice and suddenly accessibe fixes it. That makes it better. It's an interesting discussion all the way around, but to to deny the reality of what an AI oriented system can do is, is really just putting your head in the sand and not really being realistic about life as we go forward. I think that is   Dan Swift ** 26:52 so true. That is so true, and there's so many implications with AI and where it's going to go and what it will be able to do. You know, it's just in its infancy, and the amount of things that that the possibilities of what the future is going to be like, but they're just going to be very, very interesting.   Michael Hingson ** 27:05 I interviewed someone, well, I can't say interview, because it's conversation. Well, I had a conversation with someone earlier on, unstoppable mindset, and he said something very interesting. He's a coach, and specifically, he does a lot of work with AI, and he had one customer that he really encouraged to start using chat GPT. And what this customer did, he called his senior staff into a meeting one day, and he said, Okay, I want you to take the rest of the day and just work with chat, G, P, T, and create ideas that will enhance our business, and then let's get together tomorrow to discuss them. And he did that because he wanted people to realize the value already that exists using some of this technology. Well, these people came back with incredible ideas because they took the time to focus on them, and again, they interacted with chat, GPT. So it was a symbiotic, is probably the wrong word, but synergistic, kind of relationship, where they and the AI system worked together and created, apparently, what became really clever ideas that enhanced this customer's business. And the guy, when he first started working with this coach, was totally down on AI, but after that day of interaction with his staff, he recognized the value of it. And I think the really important key of AI is AI will not replace anyone. And that's what this gentleman said to me. He said, AI won't do it. People may replace other people, which really means they're not using AI properly, because if they were, when they find that they can use artificial intelligence to do the job that someone else is doing, you don't get rid of that person. You find something else for them to do. And the conversation that we had was about truck drivers who are involved in transporting freight from one place to another. If you get to the point where you have an autonomous vehicle, who can really do that, you still keep a driver behind the wheel, but that driver is now doing other things for the company, while the AI system does the driving, once it gets dependable enough to do that. So he said, there's no reason for AI to eliminate, and it won't. It's people that do it eliminate any job at all, which I think is a very clever and appropriate response. And I completely agree   Dan Swift ** 29:29 with that, you know, you think of other other technologies that are out there and how it disrupted, disrupted different industries. And the one example I like to use is the traffic light, you know. And I wonder, and I have no way of knowing this. I haven't researched this at all, but I wonder if there was any kind of pushback when they started putting in traffic lights. Because at that point in time, maybe you didn't have people directing traffic or something like that. Or maybe that was the event of the stop sign, it took it took away the jobs of people that were directing traffic or something like that. Maybe there was some kind of uproar over that. Maybe not, I don't know, but I like to think that things like that, you know. It disrupts the industry. But then people move on, and there are other other opportunities for them, and it progresses. It makes society progress forward.   Michael Hingson ** 30:06 And one would note that we still do use school crossing guards at a lot of schools.   Dan Swift ** 30:11 That is so true, that is true. Yeah, yeah. And especially, too, like talking about idea generation. I was talking to ginger. I forgot her last name, but she's the the president of pinstripe marketing, and she was saying that her team sometimes does the same thing that they they use chat GBT for idea generation. And I think, let's say Ashley, I think Ashley Mason, I think was her name, from Dasha social. The same thing they use, they use a chat GPT for idea generation, not not necessarily for creating the content, but for idea generation and the ideas it comes up with. It could be it can save you a lot of time. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 30:48 it can. And you know, I've heard over the last year plus how a lot of school teachers are very concerned that kids will just go off and get chat GPT to write their papers. And every time I started hearing that, I made the comment, why not let it do that? You're not thinking about it in the right way. If a kid goes off and just uses chat GPT to write their paper, they do that and they turn it into you. The question is, then, what are you as the teacher, going to do? And I submit that what the teachers ought to do is, when they assign a paper and the class all turns in their papers, then what you do is you take one period, and you give each student a minute to come up and defend without having the paper in front of them their paper. You'll find out very quickly who knows what. And it's, I think it's a potentially great teaching tool that   Dan Swift ** 31:48 is fascinating, that perspective is awesome. I love that.   Speaker 1 ** 31:52 Well, it makes sense. It   Dan Swift ** 31:55 certainly does. It certainly does. And that made me think of this too. You know, there's a lot of pushback from from artists about how that, you know, their their art was being used, or art is being used by AI to generate, you know, new art, essentially. And and musicians are saying the same thing that they're taking our stuff, it's getting fed into chat, GPT or whatever, and they're using it to train these different models. And I read this, this article. I don't even know where it was, but it's probably a couple months ago at this point. And the person made this comparison, and the person said, you know, it's really no different than a person learning how to paint in school by studying other people's art. You know, it's the same idea. It's just at a much, much much accelerated pace. And I thought, you know what that's that's kind of interesting. It's an interesting   Michael Hingson ** 32:45 perspective. It is. I do agree that we need to be concerned, that the human element is important. And there are a lot of things that people are are doing already to misuse some of this, this AI stuff, these AI tools, but we already have the dark web. We've had that for a while, too. I've never been to the dark web. I don't know how to get to it. That's fine. I don't need to go to the dark web. Besides that, I'll bet it's not accessible anyway. But the we've had the dark web, and people have accepted the fact that it's there, and there are people who monitor it and and all that. But the reality is, people are going to misuse things. They're going to be people who will misuse and, yeah, we have to be clever enough to try to ferret that out. But the fact of the matter is, AI offers so much already. One of the things that I heard, oh, gosh, I don't whether it was this year or late last year, was that, using artificial intelligence, Pfizer and other organizations actually created in only a couple of days? Or moderna, I guess, is the other one, the COVID vaccines that we have. If people had to do it alone, it would have taken them years that that we didn't have. And the reality is that using artificial intelligence, it was only a few days, and they had the beginnings of those solutions because they they created a really neat application and put the system to work. Why wouldn't we want to do that?   Dan Swift ** 34:23 I completely agree. I completely agree. And that's, again, that's how you move society forward. You know, it's similar to the idea of, you know, testing medicine on or testing medications on animals. For instance, you know, I love animals. You know, I love dogs, bunnies. I mean, the whole, the whole gamut, you know, love animals, but I understand the importance of, you know, well, do we test on them, or do we press on people, you know, you gotta, or do you not test? Or do just not you like you gotta. You gotta weigh out the pros and cons. And they're, they're definitely, definitely those with AI as well.   Michael Hingson ** 34:56 Well, I agree, and I. With animals and people. Now, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, we ought to be doing tests on politicians. You know, they're not people. Anyway. So I think when you decide to become a politician, you take a special pill that nobody seems to be able to prove, but they take dumb pills, so they're all there. But anyway, I'm with Mark Twain. Congress is at Grand Ole benevolent asylum for the helpless. So I'm an equal opportunity abuser, which is why we don't do politics on unstoppable mindset. We can have a lot of fun with it, I'm sure, but we sure could. It would be great talk about artificial intelligence. You got politicians. But the reality is that it's, it's really something that that brings so much opportunity, and I'm and it's going to continue to do that, and every day, as we see advances in what AI is doing, we will continue to see advances and what is open for us to be able to utilize it to accomplish, which is cool. I   Dan Swift ** 36:04 completely agree. Completely agree. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 36:06 so it'll be fun to see you know kind of how it goes. So are you, do you work for a company now that makes websites? Or what is your company that you work for? Do, sure.   Dan Swift ** 36:16 So I'm still in the education space, so I'm still, I'm like, in a state school managing a team of web professionals.   Michael Hingson ** 36:23 Okay, well, that's cool. So you keep the school sites and all the things that go along with it up at all that   Dan Swift ** 36:31 is correct. And we have lots of fun challenges when we start to integrate with third parties and got to make sure they're accessible too. And sometimes there's dialog that goes back and forth that people aren't happy with but, but it's my job to make sure, that's one of the things that we make sure happens, especially since I'm sure you've been following this. There's the Department of Justice ruling back in April, but I think it's anyone that's receiving state funding, they have to be. They have to follow the WCAG. Two point, I think, 2.1 double A compliance by April of 26 if you are a certain size, and my my institution, falls into that category. So we need to make sure that we were on the right path   Michael Hingson ** 37:06 well. And the reality is that has been around since 2010 but it took the the DOJ 12 years to finally come up with rules and regulations to implement section 508. Yep, but it's it's high time they did and they do need to do it for the rest of the internet, and that's coming, but people are just being slow. And for me personally, I think it's just amazing that it's taking so long. It's not like you have to redesign a box, that you have to go off and retool hardware. This is all code. Why should it be that difficult to do? But people throw roadblocks in your way, and so it becomes tough. Yeah, it's   Dan Swift ** 37:47 interesting, too. I remember reading this article, oh, gosh, this is probably, this is probably about a dozen years ago, and it said that, you know, the original web was 100% accessible, that it was just, you know, just text on a page pretty much. And you could do very, very simple layouts, you know, and then it got more convoluted. People would start doing tables for layouts, and tables within tables within tables, and so on and so forth. Like the original web it was, it was completely accessible. And now with, with all the the interactions we do with with client side scripting and everything like that, is just, it's a mess. If   Michael Hingson ** 38:19 you really want to hear an interesting thing, I like to look and I've done it for a long time, long before accessibe. I like to explore different sites and see how accessible they are. And one day I visited nsa.gov, the National Security Agency, which, of course, doesn't really exist. So I could tell you stories, but I went to nsa.gov, and I found that that was the most accessible website I had ever encountered. If you arrow down to a picture, for example, when you arrowed into it, suddenly you got on your screen reader a complete verbal description of what the picture was, and everything about that site was totally usable and totally accessible. I'd never seen a website that was so good contrast that with and it's changed. I want to be upfront about it, Martha Stewart Living. The first time I went to that website because I was selling products that Martha Stewart was interested. So I went to look at the website. It was totally inaccessible. The screen reader wouldn't talk at all. Now, I've been to Martha Stewart since, and it's and it's much more accessible, but, but I was just amazed@nsa.gov was so accessible. It was amazing, which I thought was really pretty cool. Of all places. You   Dan Swift ** 39:41 know, it's interesting. Before I started my my YouTube channel and podcast, I actually thought about creating a channel and or podcast about websites that are inaccessible, and I thought about calling companies out. And the more I thought about it, I was like, I don't know if I want to make that many people angry. I don't know if that's a   Michael Hingson ** 39:58 good idea. I'm. Would suggest going the other way, and maybe, you know, maybe we can work together on it. But I would rather feature websites that are accessible and tell the story of how they got there, how their people got there. I would think that would be, I hear what you're saying about making people angry. So I would think, rather than doing that, feature the places that are and why they are and and their stories, and that might help motivate more people to make their websites accessible. What do you think about that as an idea?   Dan Swift ** 40:28 I actually thought about that as well, and I was going backwards between that and and the other the negative side, because I thought, you know, bring that to light. Might actually force them to like by shedding light on it, might force them to make their site more accessible, whether what or not or not, no, but I definitely thought about those two sites.   Michael Hingson ** 40:45 Yeah, it's, it's, it's a challenge all the way around. Well, what was the very first thing you did, the first experience that you ever had dealing with accessibility that got you started down that road.   Dan Swift ** 40:58 I think it was like I said, when I work with that, that blind person, when I, when I first had that opportunity to see how he used the different web applications, we had the different web pages, and he was using a Mac. So he was using VoiceOver, he was using the, I think it's called the rotor menu, or roto something like that. Yeah, yep. So then after that happened, it was like, whoa. I need to get them back so I can, like, learn to use this as well and do my own testing. So the IT department had an old I asked them. I said, Hey guys, do you have any any old MacBooks that I can use? I was like, it can be old. I just need to test it. I need to, I need it to test for accessibility on the web. They hooked me up with an old machine, you know, it wasn't super old, you know, but it was. It worked for me. It gave me an opportunity to do my testing, and then I kind of became like the person in the department to do that. Everyone else, they didn't have the interest as much as I did. They recognized the importance of it, but they, they didn't have the same fire on the inside that I had, so I kind of took that on, and then like that. Now that I'm in the position of leadership, now it's more of a delegating that and making sure it still gets done. But I'm kind of like the resident expert in our in our area, so I'm still kind of the person that dives in a little bit by trying to make my team aware and do the things they need to do to make sure we're continuing, continuing to create accessible projects. You   Michael Hingson ** 42:20 mentioned earlier about the whole idea of third party products and so on and and dealing with them. What do you do? And how do you deal with a company? Let's say you you need to use somebody else's product and some of the things that the school system has to do, and you find they're not accessible. What do you do?   Dan Swift ** 42:42 So a lot of times, what will happen, I shouldn't say a lot of times. It's not uncommon for a department to make a purchase from a third party, and this is strictly, I'm talking in the web space. They might, they might make a purchase with a third party, and then they want us to integrate it. And this is a great example I had. It was actually in the spring the this, they had essentially a widget that would be on the on their particular set of pages, and there was a pop up that would appear. And don't get me started on pop ups, because I got very strong opinion about those. Me too, like I said, growing up, you know, late 90s, early 2000s very, very strong opinions about pop ups. So, but, but I encountered this, and it wasn't accessible. And I'm glad that in the position I'm in, I could say this unit, you need to talk to the company, and they need to fix this, or I'm taking it down. And I'm glad that I had the backing from, you know, from leadership, essentially, that I could do, I can make that claim and then do that, and the company ended up fixing it. So that was good. Another example was another department was getting ready to buy something. Actually, no, they had already purchased it, but they hadn't implemented it yet. The first example that was already implemented, that was I discovered that after the fact. So in the second example, they were getting ready to implement it, and they showed us another school that used it also a pop up. And I looked at it on the on the other school site, and I said, this isn't accessible. We cannot use this. No. And they said, Well, yes, it is. And I said, No, it isn't. And I explained to them, and I showed them how it was not accessible, and they ended up taking it back to their developers. Apparently there was a bug that they then fixed and they made it accessible, and then we could implement it. So it's nice that like that. I have the support from from leadership, that if there is something that is inaccessible, I have the power to kind of wheel my fist and take that down, take it off of our site. Do   Michael Hingson ** 44:31 you ever find that when some of this comes up within the school system, that departments push back, or have they caught on and recognize the value of accessibility, so they'll be supportive.   Dan Swift ** 44:45 I think the frustration with them becomes more of we bought this tool. We wish we had known this was an issue before we bought I think it's more of a like like that. We just wasted our time and money, possibly. But generally speaking, they do see the. Value of it, and they've recognized the importance of it. It's just more of a when others, there's more hoops everyone has to go through.   Michael Hingson ** 45:05 Yeah, and as you mentioned with pop ups, especially, it's a real challenge, because you could be on a website, and a lot of times A pop up will come up and it messes up the website for people with screen readers and so on. And part of the problem is we don't even always find the place to close or take down the pop up, which is really very frustrating   Dan Swift ** 45:30 Exactly, exactly the tab index could be off, or you could still be on the page somewhere, and it doesn't allow you to get into it and remove it, or, yeah, and extra bonus points if they also have an audio playing or a video playing inside of that.   Michael Hingson ** 45:44 Yeah, it really does make life a big challenge, which is very, very frustrating all the way around. Yeah, pop ups are definitely a big pain in the butt, and I know with accessibility, we're we're all very concerned about that, but still, pop ups do occur. And the neat thing about a product like accessibe, and one of the reasons I really support it, is it's scalable, and that is that as the people who develop the product at accessibe improve it, those improvements filter down to everybody using the widget, which is really cool, and that's important, because with individual websites where somebody has to code it in and keep monitoring it, as you pointed out, the problem is, if that's all you have, then you've got to keep paying people to to monitor everything, to make sure everything stays accessible and coded properly, whereas there are ways to be able to take advantage of something like accessibe, where what you're able to do is let it, monitor it, and as accessibe learns, and I've got some great examples where people contacted me because they had things like a shopping cart on a website that didn't work, but when accessibe fixed it, because it turns out there was something that needed to be addressed that got fixed for anybody using the product. Which is really cool.   Dan Swift ** 47:07 Yeah, that's really neat. I definitely appreciate things like that where, you know, you essentially fix something for one person, it's fixed for everyone, or a new feature gets added for someone, or, you know, a group of people, for instance, and then everyone is able to benefit from that. That's really, really awesome. I love that type of stuff.   Michael Hingson ** 47:22 Yeah, I think it's really so cool. How has all this business with accessibility and so on affected you in terms of your YouTube channel and podcasting and so on? How do you bring that into the process? That's that's   Dan Swift ** 47:37 really, really good question. I am very proud to say that I take the time to create transcripts of all my recordings, and then I go through them, and I check them for for accuracy, to make sure that things aren't correct, things are incorrect. Make sure things are correct, that they are not incorrect. So I'll make sure that those are there when the when the videos go live, those are available. Spotify creates them automatically for you. I don't know that you that I have the ability to modify them. I'm assuming I probably do, but honestly, I haven't checked into that. But so that's that's all accessible. When it comes to my web page, I make sure that all my images have the appropriate, you know, alt tags associated with them, that the the descriptions are there so people understand what the pictures are. I don't have a whole lot of pictures. Usually it's just the thumbnail for the videos, so just indicating what it is. And then I just try to be, you know, kind of, kind of text heavy. I try to make sure that my, you know, my links are not, you know, click here, learn more stuff like that. I make sure or they're not actual web addresses. I try to make sure that they're actual actionable. So when someone's using a screen reader and they go over a link, it actually is meaningful. And color contrast is another big one. I try to make sure my color contrast is meeting the appropriate level for WCAG, 2.1 double A which I can't remember what actual contrast is, but there's a contrast checker for it, which is really, really helpful   Michael Hingson ** 49:00 well. And the other, the other part about it is when somebody goes to your website again, of course, accessibility is different for different people, so when you're dealing with things like contrast or whatever, do people who come to the website have the ability to monitor or not monitor, but modify some of those settings so that they get maybe a higher contrast or change colors. Or do they have that ability?   Dan Swift ** 49:28 I They do not have that ability. I remember looking into a tool a while ago, and it was and actually, you know, at the school, we thought about developing a tool. It would be like a widget on the side that you could adjust on different things like that. You could do, you could remove images, you could remove animation, you could change color, contrast, that sort of thing. And it just be like a very predefined kind of kind of settings. But in my research, I found that a lot of times that causes other problems for people, and it kind of falls into the the arena of. Um, separate but equal. And there's a lot of issues with that right now in the accessibility space when it comes to the web. So for instance, there was a company, I forget what the company name was, but they had one of their things that they did was they would create text only versions of your pages. So you'd contract with them. They would they would scrape the content of your site. They would create a text version, text only version of your pages. So if people were using a screen reader, they could just follow that link and then browse the text only version. And there was litigation, and the company got sued, and the the person suing was successful, because it was essentially creating a separate argument.   Michael Hingson ** 50:34 And that's not necessarily separate, but equal is the problem, because if you only got the text, pictures are put on websites, graphs are put on websites. All of those other kinds of materials are put on websites for reasons. And so what really needs to happen is that those other things need to be made accessible, which is doable, and the whole web con excessive content. Accessibility Guidelines do offer the the information as to how to do that and what to do, but it is important that that other information be made available, because otherwise it really is separate, but not totally equal at   Dan Swift ** 51:11 all. That's absolutely true. Absolutely true. Yeah. So it   Michael Hingson ** 51:15 is a, it is something to, you know, to look at well, you've been doing a podcast and so on for a while. What are some challenges that someone might face that you advise people about if they're going to create their own podcast or a really productive YouTube channel,   Dan Swift ** 51:31 be real with yourself with the amount of time you have to dedicate to it, because what I found is that it takes a lot more time than I originally anticipated I thought going in, I thought, you know, so I typically try to record one or two people a week. When I first started out, I was only recording one person. And usually I would do, you know, record one day, edit the next day, you know, do the web page stuff. I would go with it, you know, I can knock it out in like an hour or two. But I wasn't anticipating the social media stuff that goes with it, the search engine optimization that goes with it, the research that goes with it, trying to so if I'm if I'm producing a video that's going to go on YouTube, what's hot at the moment? What are people actually searching for? What's going to grab people's attention? What kind of thumbnail do I have to create to grab someone's attention, where it's not clickbait, but it also represents what I'm actually talking to the person about, and still interesting. So it's a lot of a lot of that research, a lot of that sort of thing. It just eats up a lot a lot of time when it comes to like the transcripts, for instance, that was those super easy on their number of services out there that created automatically for you, and they just have to read through it and make sure it's okay. I know YouTube will do it as well. I found that YouTube isn't as good as some of the other services that are out there, but in a bind, you can at least rely on YouTube and then go and edit from that point. But yet, time is definitely a big one. I would say, if anyone is starting to do it, make sure you have some serious time to dedicate several, several hours a week, I would say, upwards, you know, probably a good, you know, four to 10 hours a week is what I would estimate in the moment. If you're looking to produce a 30 minute segment once or twice a week, I would estimate about that time.   Michael Hingson ** 53:11 Yeah, one of the things I've been hearing about videos is that that the trend is is clearly not to have long videos, but only 32nd videos, and put them vertical as opposed to horizontal. And anything over 30 seconds is is not good, which seems to me to really not challenge people to deal with having enough content to make something relevant, because you can't do everything in 30 seconds exactly,   Dan Swift ** 53:41 and what I found too. So this was very this was a little bit of a learning curve for me. So with, with the YouTube shorts that you have, they have to be a minute or less. I mean, now they're actually in the process of changing it to three minutes or less. I do not have that access yet, but it has Go ahead, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. But what I'm finding Michael is that the people that so I might create this a great example. So I was interviewing a comedian in New York City, Meredith Dietz, awesome, awesome episode. But I was talking to her about becoming a comedian, and I made about four different shorts for her from her video, and I was doing a new one each week to kind of promote it. And the videos, for me, they were getting a lot I was getting anywhere between maybe 315 100 views on the short for me, that was awesome. For other people, you know, that might be nothing, but for me, that was awesome. But what I found was that the people that watch the shorts aren't necessarily the same people that watch the long form videos. So I'm or, or I might get subscribers from people that watch the shorts, but then they're not actually watching the video. And in the end, that kind of hurts your channel, because it's showing, it's telling the YouTube I'm gonna use air quotes, YouTube algorithm that my subscribers aren't interested in my content, and it ends up hurting me more. So anyone that's trying to play that game. And be aware of that. You know, you can't get more subscribers through shorts, but if you're not converting them, it's going to hurt you.   Michael Hingson ** 55:05 I can accept three minutes, but 30 seconds just seems to be really strange. And I was asked once to produce a demonstration of accessibe on a website. They said you got to do it in 30 seconds, or no more than a minute, but preferably 30 seconds. Well, you can't do that if, in part, you're also trying to explain what a screen reader is and everything else. The reality is, there's got to be some tolerance. And I think that the potential is there to do that. But it isn't all about eyesight, which is, of course, the real issue from my perspective. Anyway.   Dan Swift ** 55:41 Yeah, I completely agree. I think what YouTube is trying to do, and I believe in getting this from Tiktok, I think Tiktok has three up to three minutes. Actually, there might be 10 minutes now that I think about it, but, but I think they're trying to follow the trend, and it's like, let's make videos slightly longer and see how that goes. So be very curious to see how that all pans out.   Michael Hingson ** 55:58 Well. And I think that makes sense. I think there's some value in that, but 30 seconds is not enough time to get real content, and if people dumb down to that point, then that's pretty scary. So I'm glad to hear that the trend seems to be going a little bit longer, which is, which is a good thing, which is pretty important to be able to do. Yeah, I completely   Dan Swift ** 56:21 agree. Because like that, the trend right now, it's, you know, people, they want stuff immediately, and if you don't catch them in 10 seconds, they're swiping onto something else, which is which is very challenging, at least, especially for me and what I do. Who's   Michael Hingson ** 56:32 the most inspiring guest that you've ever had on your podcast?   Dan Swift ** 56:37 Michael, this is a good one. This is a good one. So the video for Ashley Mason. She is a social media marketing she created a social medi

Nicholas Klingensmith says that he grew up a punk and not so nice kid. As he will describe, he was quite self centered, but it was all a façade. He will tell his story of finally realizing that he needed to change both his thinking and his concept of himself. Nick is a type one diabetic. He also is a 4-time cancer survivor and he has a number of herniated disks. He also is a recovering alcoholic. Nick finally realized he had to change after being thrown out of a Las Vegas hotel the night before he was to deliver sales speech. Nick was ejected because he was in, as he says, a “drunken haze”.   Today Nick is a successful author, a public speaker and a successful obstacle course racer and so much more. He also is a survivor of the October hurricane that struck near his home in Tampa Bay Florida.   We talk about all of this during this episode. Nicholas talks about resilience, controlling fear and even why he and his wife made the conscious decision not to evacuate their home as the hurricane approached. Nick offers many insights about how we all can learn to control fear and not only survive obstacles that are put in our way, but he will talk about how we can truly overcome them. As he will tell us, it is all about choice and making informed decisions.   This episode to me is especially poignant because so many of the things we discuss are illustrations of what is going on all around us. I think Nick's experiences and the stories he tells about them are the kinds of things to which we all can relate. I hope you like Nick's discussion and that you will let me know your thoughts.       About the Guest:   After being thrown out of a Las Vegas hotel in a drunken haze, jeopardizing his career and relationships, Nick Klingensmith had to make a change. A 4-time cancer survivor, type-1 diabetic, recovering alcoholic with herniated discs, nerve damage and sleep apnea, he defies it all when he finds Obstacle Course Racing. Refusing to accept his limitations, he's completed over 100 Spartan Races, 6 Major Marathons, several Ultras and scores of other obstacle and endurance events.   As someone who has walked the path of a sales professional, Nick is an expert in propelling other achievement-driven professionals and leaders to overcome fear and rejection and push past self-limiting doubts, by inspiring them to take purposeful action towards their goals. Nick is a raw and passionate storyteller who holds nothing back when revealing who he used to be and the person he is now.   A true testament to the power of resilience, with an unwavering belief in his purpose to overcome obstacles and inspire others to do the same, Nick delivers powerful and transformative speeches, drawing from personal experiences to illustrate the extraordinary potential of pushing through adversity. 1)    The power of perseverance: Pursuing personal growth and overcoming obstacles for success 2)    Pursuing Something Greater: Taking Risks, pushing boundaries and exploring your unlimited potential 3)    Living Inspired: Embracing Purpose, overcoming adversity, and finding belonging   Ways to connect with Nick:   Instagram: @stridemotivation https://www.instagram.com/stridemotivation/ TikTok: @stridemotivation https://www.tiktok.com/@stridemotivation?lang=en Twitter: @stridemotivatio https://twitter.com/stridemotivatio YouTube: @stridemotivation https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOiV2sNB3g4meufvBg3a9sA Threads: @stridemotivation LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nklingensmith/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100069207242260 www.stridemotivation.com Email: nick@stridemotivation.com   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset, where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet unexpected. Boy. It's been a crazy time in the world in general, and for our guest, Nick Klingensmith, it's really been kind of unexpected. Nick lives down in the Tampa St Pete area, and we as he knows, and I know, just went through a week ago hurricanes down there, which tells you about when we're recording this. He lost power for a while, but Nick is a pretty resilient guy, and he's going to going to talk about some of that. He's a keynote speaker. He's an author. Does a lot of different kinds of things. He is a coach, conducts master classes, and some things happen along the way that caused him to get to be where he is today. So we're not going to give any of that away. I want Nick and and while I'm Nick to talk about it and you to hear it, so we'll leave it at that. Nick, thanks for being here, and welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Nick Klingenmith ** 02:20 Michael, thank you so much for having me. I'm I'm really excited to be here today,   Michael Hingson ** 02:24 and I'm glad I was out in Southern California. Actually, that's not totally true last week or when the hurricane hit. I was in Kansas City and so but I one of the people who spoke when I was there was an economist who lived down in Florida, and I don't know exactly where she lived, but she went out as soon as her talk was over to get back to Florida, because she felt that her home was right in the middle of everything. So gosh, what do you do?   Nick Klingenmith ** 02:53 I'll tell you. Man, with the hurricanes, the most dangerous thing you can do is the reactive decisions before the hurricane. And part of what I'm talking about is being right where we are, right just north of St Petersburg, just north of where ground zero was supposed to be, right up until the like the late hour. You know, there's a lot of factors you have to consider when you like what want to evacuate or not. You know, we have a senior dog. We can't we can only drive so far with him. We have a reactive dog. There's only so many places we can take him, and if you didn't leave early, you risk running out of gas on the side of the highway. So there comes a point where, you know, we decided it our house was as secure as a home can be, even for a direct hit, we're just going to ride it out. We buttoned down. We were as safe as we could be. But, you know, with people telling you, like, run, run, run, right? Like, well, I have a friend who evacuated to Sarasota, where the direct hit actually ended up being, you know, I mean, where was I going to go to? To Orlando. It was directly in the path of the storm. Where was I gonna go? To the mountains? Because clearly, that's not so safe after all, the 72 hours leading up to a hurricane where just everybody panics and, you know, I think honestly, and this is what we'll unpack here, what I've learned from what not just not what I've been through, because what I've been through didn't teach me anything. It was what I had to what I had to do to put it all in perspective, and didn't understand it, but all those lessons in resilience give you the ability to pause and make better decisions in the face of adversity well,   Michael Hingson ** 04:32 and that is absolutely true. You know, should you have evacuated well? You know, as you said, there are a lot of ways to go. And the question is, where could you really go? You'd have to leave really early to make sure you could evacuate far enough away. But then, as you said, you have a dog that that can't travel this far, and that becomes an issue. Just, you know,   Nick Klingenmith ** 04:56 I'm not Florida. Man, all right, right. I am. Out three and a half miles from the shore. Yeah, I am just beyond, like, the line of demarcation, but if I was on the other side of the bridge, there's no way I would have stayed. Yeah, you   Michael Hingson ** 05:12 know, well, you know, you can only do what you can do and decide what you can decide. But the real issue, as you point out, is being able to pause and analyze it. And one of the things that I love to tell people is I love information. For me, when September 11 happened, there were a couple of times I asked people like an FBI agent, what's going on, and they wouldn't tell me. And I understand why, intellectually, they wouldn't because they didn't want to cause panic. As we were coming out of the stairwell, none of us knew what happened. The hundreds of people on the stairs didn't know. Of course, people always say, well, you're blind. You didn't know. Well, that has nothing to do with it. The plane hit on the other side of the building, 18 floors above us, and you know, the reality is, we don't see through concrete, steel and rebar. So the bottom line is, none of us knew, and when I asked, he said, Well, just no time to tell you, but I'll take you where you need to go, me and other people who are with us. I wish he had told me, it would have changed some decisions I made, but I also understand why he didn't. He didn't know me. He didn't know whether I panic or go crazy or whatever, and and so he did what he did. And actually, I shouldn't say that I would change what I did and the direction that we went I might have. But the bottom line is, it's all about being able to pause and analyze, and you have to have the information to do it. And you clearly were in a position to have as much information as you could have and make the decision that you made.   Nick Klingenmith ** 06:48 You know, when you hear seals describe like certain engagements and these split seconds that go by, and just the decision making process and the the way that, you know, time slows down for that. I mean, that's what they train for. That's why they train through adversity, and that's, that's how I look at more adversity now. And it's not that I welcome it. Don't get me wrong, you know? I mean, who really wants bad things or uncomfortable things? You don't want them. But I like to say this because somebody had asked me once that, if I wasn't a diabetic, would I be a better athlete? And I said, No, if I wasn't a diabetic, I wouldn't be an athlete at all. I wouldn't have become one so. Well, why is that I have these tools? I've accepted that life is always going to keep coming, so I just don't need to panic anymore. I know I have the tools and ability to slow down and make that decision making tree to get through it.   Michael Hingson ** 07:46 Yeah, okay, and that makes sense, but it is this, we, what if everything in the world anyway, too many people, what if everything, well, what if you weren't a diabetic, would you have done? You know, we, we, we always have to see those questions coming at us. And it's unfortunate that all too often we What if so much that we create a lot of fear that we don't need to create, yeah, which you know, makes sense. Tell us a little about if you would. I love to start out this way, the early Nick growing up and all that, and kind of what, what started you to where you're going and where you are,   Nick Klingenmith ** 08:26 man, I was a little shit. There you go.   Michael Hingson ** 08:29 That's Thanks for being on the podcast. Nick, we just summarized. No, no, go ahead. I   Nick Klingenmith ** 08:35 was such a punk, not a bad not like a I didn't like to get in trouble, but I, I was a little punk, you know, from the time I was a little kid. And I think I realize now, you know, part of, part of what I've uncovered in my history here is that my my father left me, left my mom, not me at a very young age. I grew up on an island, all right, it wasn't an after school special. He moved down the road, but the problem was that my mom wasn't she was still active with drugs, and she simply just wasn't capable of actually like caring for me. And so I grew up not necessarily looking for other people's validation so much as trying to prove that I didn't need it. So, I mean, I had a, I like, I was, I had a side hustle when I was in the second grade, like, I was hustling kids playing cards out of the playground, like, I just kind of like to buck the rules. I liked, I liked the bad guy in the movies. You know, it was, that's who I related to. But that, that sort of grittiness, actually turned into something after a while, because as I continue to look at myself as more independent and having to do it on my own, I also started working at a young age. I went to a boarding school for high school because I wanted a better education. Something else. I sought out myself, financial aid. I sought out myself. I went to college back. At the University of Massachusetts, and I also paid for that. Paid my own way through summer jobs and well, the last 20 years. So that was all working for me as something for a very long time, I was active in life. I like to play sports. I played competitive beach volleyball for 20 years. I I like to I liked to socialize. I often find myself in relationships, and there just came a point, though, where that sort of me against a world attitude changed. It was something that was giving me fuel and armor for a long time, right when I found out is that it was actually more like the rally cry of the victim mindset that I had been developing.   Michael Hingson ** 10:45 So what happened that brought that realization and that change?   Nick Klingenmith ** 10:51 I needed to start having real things happen to me, such as the four times I've been diagnosed with cancer. I'm a type one diabetic. I just celebrated 10 years of recovery from alcoholism. I have seven herniated discs from two different rollover fatality car accidents, nerve damage in several areas, sleep apnea. I almost died from meningitis. All those things had happened, and all those things had only contributed, though, to the victim mindset. It wasn't until I became an obstacle course racer, until, actually, after my boss walks in my office and challenges me to do a Spartan Race. And this was at a time where I was on top of the world. At that point, I was two years sober. I was a VP of sales. I was doing really well in my career. I was in a new relationship with an amazing woman that's now my wife. And I had just decisively beaten cancer for the fourth time, and I was I was kind of stuck, and so when he challenged me to do this obstacle course race with him. I knew I needed a change, and I didn't know what it was, so I said yes to this event. And it was through that process that I began to defy everything that I had previously believed about myself. I had created such limiting beliefs. I had created this narrative again, me against the world. I'm the victim poor me, right? I was convinced that I couldn't run because of my diabetes. I couldn't adventure because of my sleep apnea. I'd always be a piece of crap because of my addiction. When I went out there and I did my first obstacle course race. So I'm out there in the woods, crawling under barbed wire, carrying heavy objects, climbing up ropes, swinging from things, just like a little kid out there in the world with no fear and no doubt. And it wasn't me against the world, it was me in the world. And I felt just liberated. And I realized that everything I had convinced myself before of that had been a lie, and I didn't know yet what I had just, you know, told you about the victim mindset. It was just that point, I realized I was capable. I had this blank slate in front of me, and so for the next six, seven months, I got into this world of endurance sports and obstacle course racing. And I was improving through better nutrition, better exercise, yoga, meditation. I was improving through mind, body and spirit in all aspects of my life. And that's when I was in a second car accident, and that's where I got several more of my herniated discs, and that's where I got nerve damage. And the same day that happened, my cat of 12 years died, and 10 days after that, the lady who hit me died. And even though all I was doing was sitting at a red light when that happened, I felt responsible, and I was home couple weeks later, just heartbroken and devastated. You know, the last six, seven months have been like a dream to me. I felt like I was becoming this better person in all aspects, and now I felt like it was being all taken away from me, and you want to give up. And I'm sure I'm not the only person who's ever felt that way. I just didn't know what that meant. So I kept going to work. So I keep taking showers, I keep walking the dog, I keep meeting my responsibilities. And so I decided to put another race on the calendar, and when I was trying to train. I just I wasn't in it, and I was listening to this, like motivational compilation on YouTube, this guy's going back and forth about, are you a survivor? You are or victim? Are you a victim or survivor? And that's when I realized that even though I had already been progressing and I had just like found this new found lifestyle that I was still playing the victim. I was still saying, Woe is me, why me? Why me? And I? When I recognized it, that's when I realized that it's also a choice. You may not have chosen to be a victim, but you do choose to remain one, and I decided that that point that I will not be defined by my adversity, but rather. They're my triumph over it, and so it's been a decision. I have to only what. There's only one way I can tell that story, and it's a long version.   Michael Hingson ** 15:07 No, that's fine. You know, one of the things that that I realized during September 11, and it was partly because as tower two was falling and I was falling and I was running away from it, one of the things I said to myself was, God, I can't believe that you got us out of a building just to have it fall on us. And I'm a guy who has a lot of faith and so on, and I don't tend to panic. But I said that, and then immediately I heard in my head of voice as clearly as you hear me now, that said, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running with Roselle, who is my guide dog, and the rest will take care of itself. And I've adopted that mindset, which is really what you're saying. Focus on what you can control. There are things that happen to us that we didn't and wouldn't have any control over them happening. I've been well, I'm still yet to be convinced that we truly could have predicted September 11 as a country and stopped it. I don't think that we had the information, which says something about what a team dedicated to trying to create so much chaos and destruction was able to do because they functioned as a team. But the bottom line is that they did what they did. I don't think we could have stopped it, but what I do have control over is how I deal with what happened. I couldn't control what happened, but I can deal with what happened, and I think that's the important part of it, you know, I think   Nick Klingenmith ** 16:42 part of what you just it's not that you can do with it. I think the difference is you recognize it as yours to deal with. That's the first step. You know, too often we we refuse to recognize that we have an option, just because we don't like the options and dealing with it. We have to accept whatever happened happened. I have to accept that I'm a diabetic. I said this in a speech the other night. I said, like it's I'm not to blame that I'm I'm a diabetic, but when I take responsibility for being diabetic, I can be an ultra endurance athlete. Gotta accept our starting line, whatever, whatever that is. And, you know, there's a friend of mine, she's also a diabetic. She has a kind of a special something. I don't really understand diabetes thing, but, you know, she she, she struggles because she tries to control it, instead of just manage it, or instead of live with it. You know, they're basically kind of, now I'm going to mess this one up, but she doesn't focus on what she can control. She's so focused on what she can't. Mm, hmm. And that's what keeps   Michael Hingson ** 17:57 her stuck, yeah, and it happens so often, which is one of the things I talk about in my new book that we published in August of 2024 the book called Live like a guide dog, is that we What if everything to death. And the problem is well over 90% of what we what if about we don't have any control over. And that's the difference between us and dogs. Dogs don't do what ifs. And on September 11, when I was working with my fifth guy, dog, Roselle, nothing directly, really threatened her, and so as soon as we got home, she is ready to play. It was all over, and it's because she doesn't deal with it the way we have taught ourselves, or have been taught, to deal with things. And we What if everything so much that we create a lot more fear in our lives than we need to have, which is, which is so unfortunate, if we could learn to step back from that the   Nick Klingenmith ** 18:52 the speech I gave the other night told my story, as well as centered on a couple of themes that really would have resonated with that particular crowd, but one of them we talked a lot about, was fear was one that they kept kind of bouncing around after the fact. And I say that fear only exists in my imagination, and it's only power sources me, and it's that we suffer more from our own imaginations than we do reality. Sure, we create these things, but if we take just even a moment, and it's hard, even if you think, even if you think through logically, I don't think you can necessarily think through fear. And I'll, I'll speak to that in just a moment, but look back at all the times we were afraid. I found no monsters under the bed or in the closet. Like 90% of the things that I've been afraid of. Also, not only can I get out control, but they also haven't happened, right? Most of them will never manifest. You know, that said, the reason I think that you can't net even though you should be able to logically think through fear and understand that it probably doesn't exist, fear also hits on our emotions and stuff like that. So you. The I do believe that we can then move beyond fear, and therefore action is how we conquer fear.   Michael Hingson ** 20:07 Well, I think that, I guess I differ just a little bit. I think fear is a real thing in a sense, and partly it's a physical physiology, physiological reaction. I will never tell people not to be afraid, because I don't think that overall, we can do that. But what I tell people absolutely is you can learn to control fear and use it as a very powerful tool to help you. If you choose to do that, fear is is something that can cause you to focus, or if you don't learn to control it, it will overwhelm you, or, as I put it, blind you or paralyze you. But it is, it is there, and maybe the time will come when we can completely eliminate the concept. But mostly it's there, in part, because it's a physiological thing that we also encounter. But again, you mentioned the seals earlier, and they've learned to control fear. They're not going to tell you they're not afraid, but they're going to tell you that they can control it and use it to their advantage. Um,   Nick Klingenmith ** 21:12 we don't. We don't differ at all. By the way, the because I didn't fear itself isn't, isn't real. It's our fears are liars, those, most of the time, are the manifestations of the doubt. Fear, of course, is a real thing. Here's what I like to say, Okay, I'm with you, yeah, because I'm afraid of snakes and heights, yet I spend my weekends crawling around swamps and climbing up mountains. But it's not because I'm unafraid. It's I move beyond the fear. I do it anyway, and it I'm still afraid. I'm never going to handle a snake if I see one on the course, I'm going the other direction as fast as I can. It's just that I've, I have to find a way to not let it prevent me from living my life. And so I look for those things to you know, whatever I step into fear, I create. I make my world broader. But I don't know if you ever read the book, fear is fueled by Patrick Sweeney, great book, but he really talks a lot about the difference between fear and courage. Because or being fearless, you'd have to be a sociopath. Yeah, you'd have to have a complete disconnection from reality. And plus, like you said, Fear is very healthy. It is a good idea to fear the hot flame over the stove. It's a good idea to fear the Mack truck going down the highway if I want to go run into the street. Also, fear can be an indicator. You know, I when I was afraid for my job, I knew it's because I wasn't doing it. If I'm afraid for my home, it's because I'm not financially prepared. You know, if fear tells me what's important to me as well. So it's not always a bad thing, like, like we've been saying, though it's what you do with it or what you do about it. So   Michael Hingson ** 22:51 you wouldn't even want to pick up a garden snake or a king snake or anything. Oh, no way, huh?   Nick Klingenmith ** 22:57 I don't care if it had, like, tickets for Vegas and a cure for cancer in its mouth. Put that demon thing, that demon cord away.   Michael Hingson ** 23:07 Well, I have, I have played with some snakes, but I also recognize that they're, they're not like me, and you have to be cautious even among the most non poisonous snakes, and that is something that we have to deal with. But I guess I don't fear them. I'm probably more cautious around a black widow spider than a snake than my wife. There you go. Well. But the other part about snakes is, of course, not knowing necessarily, if I encounter snakes, what they are, I'm going to probably avoid them until I know a whole lot more from somebody else about them. And if I hear rattlers, I'm going to definitely deal with that accordingly and freeze or whatever. So   Nick Klingenmith ** 23:55 that's why my fears are rational, because you would be naturally afraid of the potential consequences of the snake, which is what we should be afraid of, right? If we're getting afraid of something, right? I'm afraid of the snake. I'm afraid it's of its sheer existence. My   Michael Hingson ** 24:10 My brother in law, when he was a kid, my wife used to tell this story, and her parents told the story, and they all passed now, but he came in one day, or came from somewhere, and he was holding a Black Widow and going, Yeah, that's really strange, but eventually he let it go, but he was just holding on to it and showing it to everybody. Fine. I don't think he would do that today, though. Yeah,   Nick Klingenmith ** 24:41 Mo, I feel like again, maybe logic and thinking prevents us from doing really silly things like that from time to time. Yeah, there   Michael Hingson ** 24:48 is that. On the other hand, I've never been a skier, and I'm not afraid of skiing, but I love to tease people and say I'm not going to go skiing, because I know what happened to Sonny Bono and I know. Those trees are out there waiting for me. And no matter where I am in relation to the trees, they're going to come out and get me. And in reality, I know intellectually that if somebody said, Come on, really ski. If I were up in an area where there was a ski resort and we had snow and all that sort of stuff, and there was a reasonably gentle ski slope, I would try it, but it's fun to tease people and say, heck no, I'm not going to go out there and let those trees get   Nick Klingenmith ** 25:28 me. I think what you just said is kind of important, because I look at it like hot sauce, all right. I when I was younger, I could eat the hot or the hot. Nowadays, not so much, but I still enjoy hot sauce, but if it gets too hot, I can't enjoy it at all. It will ruin the entire meal. I can't even eat it. And that's sort of where the fear comes in, or doing things that we're fearful of, because if you just throw me right into it, that's not going to be exhilarating, and that's not going to be something I'm going to come back from and want to come back from and want to do again and say, I conquered that. That's not going to expand my universe. That's going to send me crawling under the bed. So, yeah, if you don't like the ski, if you're afraid of the trees, the bunny slope is where you need to be. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 26:14 having having never skied, I would want to start out there anyway, but, um, but I know intellectually, I'm not really afraid of it. I've just never really been around skiing. Now, my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life, so we really never were up visiting her, her brother, my brother in law, or in any other area, when we were really around in a skiing environment, which is what it's really about i i would never avoid skiing, but it's just not the thing that is the most exciting thing for me to do. I've ice skated in my life, and I was out on an ice skating rink for a few hours, and at the very end, I fell and sprained my ankle. And I haven't really been ice skating since, but I am, but I I'm not afraid to go do it. It's just again. It's not something that that I've done, but I, I think life is an adventure, and I love to explore things. And you mentioned hot sauce, there used to be a show on Food Network with Bobby Flay, and I'm forgetting the other guy, who was, oh, I'm blanking out on his name, but it was called grilling and chilling. And he was from, he owned a restaurant down in in Philadelphia called Jack's Firehouse. And we ended up having to go there. Well, we'd end up going there. Didn't have to go there, but Karen, my wife, and I, went there. They have something there, which is made of the hottest peppers and so on that. You can imagine. It's called hot lava, and they bring you a bowl of it, and I touched my finger to it, and then just tasted my finger, and I went, I'm not going to eat that stuff. That's just too hot for me. But again, I can say safely that if I had to, because I didn't have any choice, I wouldn't be so afraid that I wouldn't do something like eat it if it had to be on something to make it edible or whatever. But I do think you're right. I think that fear is really all about what we do and how how we learn to control it, and that's the important part about it. And all too often, we just don't learn to do that. And so as you point out, well over 90% of the things that we fear never will come to pass, never have come to pass, and we're just the ones who are creating the environment that makes it so much scarier for us.   Nick Klingenmith ** 28:36 Plus, are we really afraid of the thing, or are we afraid of the consequences of the thing, yeah? You know, when you really take it all the way back down to the thing you're most afraid of, you may realize what you're most afraid of is a nuisance and not a catastrophe, right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:55 Yeah? And, and for me, um, I'll, I'll face consequences, and what I the only thing I want to as much as possible know is what the consequences are, and then I'll make a, what you would call a rational decision as to whether I want to do it. But I can take the basic fear out of the situation and turn it into making it somewhat analytical. And the result of that is that it becomes what we're talking about here, which is a choice, you   Nick Klingenmith ** 29:29 know, I'll take it back down in the beginning, because I'm sorry, did I cut you off just now? No, no, okay, you know the decisions that went into the storm, right? So we, I gave you the reasons as to why we were there, but why we decided to stay. But then there were other things to consider. Um, I mean, the house is, like, rated for whatever the wind the windows go 140 like it's a new roof, blah, blah, blah, like it's, it's about as safe as it can get, all right, we we weren't going to die. We weren't going to get flooded. We sandbagged. Everything we did, all this, whatever. So then the decision had to be like, if it is bad, we have to understand, if there's like, catastrophic damage to the area and something goes wrong, they're not going to be able to get to us. So we might be without days. You know, we know. We knew we would lose power. We might be without food, water and access to other human beings and communications for up to, like, a week. So we prepared for that. That said, right, we were as logically prepared as possible. When you're sitting in the middle of a cat four hurricane, I'm not going to tell you I wasn't scared. I mean, like you could look out the window and even the middle of, I mean, it was, it was late when it hit, I mean, trees that don't move were swaying hard back and forth, and you weren't totally unsure that one of them wasn't going to end up in your living room. So those were completely natural fears, even though I was as secure as it could logically be. It's a cat four hurricane, and it can do what it wants.   Michael Hingson ** 31:00 Did did you though, while that was happening and you were seeing all that, did the thought also flash in your mind? Yeah, but I did make the choice to stay here so I can deal with it, or I will deal with as best I can. I   Nick Klingenmith ** 31:13 was already prepared for, you know, in my mind I had, I mean, by the door, we had two doors that were accessible because we barricaded everything else up. And by each of them were, you know, shoes, towels, wet gear, things of case I needed to, case a tree came through and crushed and I had to do something I don't know, whatever, like, you know, the the car was in a position. If we had to bug out, we could bug out. If it, you know, we kept the lifted vehicle here, move the other one down the road. Preparations were about as made. But this is where obstacle course racing literally taught me the process to this. Because I love running Ultras, 50 Ks, you know, 70 obstacles up mountains, 10 to 12 hour days of just misery, because everything will go wrong. Everything will go wrong. Whatever your race plan is, things are going to go wrong. And so I've literally just been practicing tackling one unexpected obstacle at a time, and that's all it is. It's a mental process of right? You prepare for what you can and when things happen, you have to just pause and say, what is the obstacle? What is the challenge I'm facing? What is the outcome I need, and what needs to be done to achieve it? Go   Michael Hingson ** 32:29 deal with that obstacle, and then go to the next one. That's   Nick Klingenmith ** 32:33 That's it. I mean, if, if Windows got punctured out, and then we do this, if something else happened, then you begin to prioritize, protect the dogs. My wife is fully capable of taking care of herself and also doing things to protect the home. So we had our assignments, but instead, you know, because of that, she fell asleep in the middle of the worst of it, which is a good thing. The dogs were comfortable. Nothing bad happened. And I mean, we lost power. But whatever that happens.   Michael Hingson ** 33:01 I was in a sports car rally once, and I was the navigator, so the the course, the instructions were in braille, and I started to read it, and then, and I was reading to the driver, so that the driver followed directions, and I started to get a little bit ahead, and the driver said, no, no, no, don't do that. All I want to know is, what's our next job? And that struck a chord with me, because I I realized, Oh, he wants to focus on just the one thing which makes perfect sense. And that's been a and I was like, 13 at the time. That was a life lesson, though, that I that I really took to heart. Again. You can think about all sorts of things. You do need to make preparations, but when you're in the middle of something, ultimately, you've got to deal with it one step at a time. It's   Nick Klingenmith ** 33:57 It's like chess. You want to consider all your moves, but you only make one move at a time, and I'll tell you, this is something that is so idiot proof I hate that it's taken me 45 years to really get the hang of it, but there's been no better teacher for me in that than sobriety, because I truly learned one day at a time, living and as an entrepreneur and A new speaker and a new coach. This past 18 months, it's sometimes been hour at a time living because life continues to happen, but the way that I will solve most of my problems is with the new action. And so I and you can't just ignore things all the time, but I can say for one hour, I'm focused on this right now. And I literally will say out loud often, no, I'm doing this right now. I'm doing this right now. Even on my run, sometimes I'm like, nope, hey, I'm here right now.   Michael Hingson ** 34:51 Do you do things like, when you're running, listen to podcasts or anything like that, or do you just focus on the running? Neither I listen to music and day. Mean, okay, well, so you you do other things while you're running. Okay, why? I shouldn't have just said podcast. But rather, I pay   Nick Klingenmith ** 35:07 attention to because I run by heart rate. So it'll be like 10 minutes at this zone, 10 minutes at this zone, back and forth. So I have to pay attention. But I set my watch to heart rate. I don't even look at the pace and and so I have to monitor that loosely every, you know, just a little bit at my watch. Also, I will have to look at my diabetes, my blood sugar, every 10 minutes, 15 minutes or so. But beyond that, glucose monitor, yeah, I have it on my phone, yeah. So I'll do that. And then, other than that, I listen to music, and my playlist is very eclectic, but I, I will daydream of things, you know, this is where I set and just daydream of really big goals, or race goals or life goals, and just just fantasize like just, let's say it drift away into that. But running   Michael Hingson ** 35:59 gives you the opportunity to do that, which is what's so cool. I There are things that that I do that I call them sort of brainless activities, but I do them with the idea that while they're going on, I can be thinking about other things. I don't have to focus my full attention on them. And the result of that is that I do accomplish other things, or I set goals, or, as you say, daydreaming things happen because of that.   Nick Klingenmith ** 36:28 And for me, I learned a long time ago. Even though I can be a fierce competitor, I'll go back to my beach volleyball days. Let's say you and I met before the game. You were we're going to play against each other, and I liked you. We were casual with each other. Whatever I would play great. But let's say for some reason we didn't like each other, and then all of a sudden I was kind of pissed off. I would play terrible. I I don't play well, like that. I play well, and I'm loose having fun, yeah. And so since I run my heart rate, I am acutely aware of what a negative a negative thought does to your body, because I literally will turn my thoughts to something negative. And even though I am not making any more effort, I'm not running any faster, my heart rate is jumping six to eight beats a minute. Yeah, so that's also why I don't want to solve problems when I'm out there. You know, that's where I do want to drift away, because when I'm in my work day, right? I'm not daydreaming, I'm working. I'm focused on tasks and things that I can do with other people or places that are required to do during work time.   Michael Hingson ** 37:37 But it's great to have the opportunity to just let your mind go. And I think we need to do more of that. One of the things I also advocate a lot is that people should take time at night, when they're falling asleep or just before, and be introspective, think about what happened during the day, and do it in a in a constructive way. Never say, why did this fail? Why was I a failure here? But rather, what can I learn from this that didn't go as well as I expected? I've learned to not ever call myself my own worst critic anymore. I'm my own best teacher, and that's the way it should be, because first of all, it's a positive thing, and secondly, I am my own best teacher. No one could teach me anything. They can provide me with information, but I really have to teach myself and understand it and emotionally and intellectually deal with it. But I think it's it's so important to have that time just to let your mind go off and do things.   Nick Klingenmith ** 38:36 One of the worst things as people that we do is we start the day with yesterday, yeah. And one of the ways to prevent that, which takes practice, because we're used to it, is we also have to finish the day the day before. So like you're talking about, and this is part of my sobriety, too. It's take that daily inventory, and then I like to after doing sort of doing that exercise myself, I'll also say a nightly prayer, and then I'm going to meditate for at least five minutes, sometimes 30 to 45 probably five. And at that point I'm not trying to think about anything. And I go that that point is when I'm I'm listening or, right, you know, just trying to clear it out. But I think I remember a couple years ago, I was training for this race, and it was a big race, 50k mountain race, and I started to kind of have a panic moment of like, Oh, my God, I have to do all this training. What am I going to do? How am I going to prepare for this? I'm never going to do it in time. And so I asked myself, well, what's the most important thing I need to do right now to hit my goal? And the answer was, I needed to make sure I woke up to do my training in the morning, because that's the only other thing I can impact right I can't do anything about the next three months. So then I asked myself, well, if I need to make that happen, what is the most important thing that needs to happen right now for me to hit my goals? And this is when I was stretching and meditating at night. And I was like, well, I need a good night's sleep so I'll wake up and exercise. Okay, what's the most important thing I can do right now to make sure I have a good night's sleep? Go to sleep. Mountain came down to one breath. Yeah, I hear you. And that's it. I mean, it's I have it written on my whiteboard over here. It says, break things down to the stupid Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 40:26 and eventually get to sleep.   Nick Klingenmith ** 40:28 I mean, it's just the one, the baby steps that I can take. I remember, I was reading Miracle Morning at that same time, and I used to, because I was, I was struggling, and so I was using my meditations for visualization, and I was spending too much time there trying to create a future. And it wasn't giving me that relaxation, and it wasn't. It was actually stressing me out more, and I just needed to relax and just to focus on the single most controllable thing I could and just taking it, you know, take some pressure off myself, and that really was such a simple fix.   Michael Hingson ** 41:01 Yeah, I hear you, if I may, you've talked about being sober now for I think you said 10 years, yep, what? What led you to finally make that decision that you had to change and be sober.   Nick Klingenmith ** 41:17 My final drunk was very public. And by what I mean by that is I was supposed to be the speaker at my company's conference the next day in Vegas, and instead, I got thrown out of the hotel and trespassed in the middle of the night for trying to have sex with a hooker in a broom closet after apparently getting in a fight with somebody. Well, my girlfriend slept down the hall. I wasn't allowed back at the hotel. Told my boss, my lawyer, I lied to my girlfriend about whatever we were getting thrown out of. It took about five hours for us to get a new hotel, and when my head finally hit the pillow, I said out loud, I don't want to live this way anymore. But that was just the final moment. Because what led up to that was I was a very highly functional alcoholic, and I had been for only a number of years. To be honest, I had alcohol wasn't a big part of my life for a while, and then when it came back in, it came back in rapidly. And so really only a period about five or six years I became a highly functional alcoholic, and I mean highly my career flourished during this time, you know. And the thing is, I didn't I wasn't an everyday drinker. I didn't get drunk every time I drank, and bad things didn't happen every time I did, but more and more, my decisions were getting more selfish, my behavior was getting more destructive, and alcohol was just playing more of a bigger role in my life. So I it was when I got cancer the third time that gave me the excuse I needed to crawl deep into the bottle, because at that point it was already sort of critical mass. I wouldn't go anywhere unless I knew I was going to get drunk. Everything was selfish. I didn't know about it. I didn't think about it, and I was actually ready to quit because I didn't like the way other people would talk about me. So that sounds like a healthy reason, right? And so so I tried to quit on my own, and I spent a couple months just white knuckling it, and I tempted fate, and I went to every happy hour. I threw beer Olympics in my house. And I just, I think I wanted to prove that I could do both without, you know, be who I was, without being who I was. But what I also didn't realize at a time that alcohol wasn't the problem. Alcohol was just a symptom. Who I was was the problem. And so when I got cancer for the third time, they told me they couldn't operate. Um, spoiler alert, the tumor's still there. It's been there over 10 years, but that gave me an excuse to crawl deep into the bottle. And so for about a month, I mean, I just, I was drinking at that point, because who's going to mess with me, right? I have inoperable cancer. That was the excuse I needed, and it that's what really led me to take the gloves off, which led me to Vegas. So I tell you, this cancer saved my life, because I would have died for my drink and long before I would have died from the cancer. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 44:19 I hear you. Well, you've said that you recognize that you didn't overcome adversity. You survived it. What does what does that mean? And how do you overcome adversity?   Nick Klingenmith ** 44:29 I understand surviving it is when? How did I how do I say it for someone else? You know? It was because, as I'm standing there in the totality, here's the thing I told you, how I was growing up. You know, this sort of independent kid? Right child of neglect grows up to be independent, weird, right child with trust issues grows up to be self sufficient, cool, but at some time along the way, that just becomes resentment. It and fear, and it works against us, and that's what creates a little bit of the victim mindset, and so, and it's easy to get that way when bad things happen to us, we feel like it's unfair. I mean, it's just natural. Nobody's immediately like, oh, I guess it's just my turn. So I think living with all those things. But this is where, where part of it gets confusing is I survived something, and people would tell me how tough I was. I would all I did was not die from cancer. I didn't do surgery, I didn't prescribe treatment. All I did was not die. I didn't cure cancer for anyone else. So I survived it. I didn't overcome it. All I did was show up to a doctor's appointment like, I'm lucky that I got thyroid cancer and not prostrate cancer. That's it. So I didn't overcome anything. I'm a diabetic. I'm still diabetic. How did I overcome diabetes? By having it. No sir, I was surviving it. All I was doing was being diabetic, but the mindset of thinking that, man, maybe when am I going to get a break? All these things keep happening to me, happening to me. When you think that way, you're not overcoming any of it. You are just surviving it. And you know what? God bless you. Because I know it's hard for a lot people go through a lot, and it's sometimes hard to handle. To overcome it, though, we have to do something with it. That's how you overcome it. I'm a diabetic who helps other diabetics realize they can be ultra endurance athletes. I race with the words fuck cancer written across my chest. I'm currently fundraising for the American Cancer Society for men were pink. I do what I can to help other people who are hearing cancer. I have cancer for the first you have cancer for the first time. That's how I get back there. I try to help other alcoholics recover and get sober. I write books and share about my fears and things that other people can relate to in the hopes that they, too, can overcome those obstacles. And that's how I overcome it. Those things lose power over me now, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 47:08 and I think that last sentence is the real key to the whole thing. You're not giving them power. You're you're putting your power in your mindset elsewhere. You're not giving power to diabetes. Yeah, it's there. You're not giving power to drink. Since you become sober, have you ever taken a drink anymore? No, not at all. So you know you you took away the power, and you're putting the power into the mindset and all the things that you're expressing, which is so important, I think again, that's so much of what most of us tend not to learn, that a lot of the things that we deal with, we deal with because we give them the power, rather than moving forward and putting the power where it really needs to go.   Nick Klingenmith ** 48:04 It's we raise, we raise kids this way, man. And I mean, they're raising the moment to say it's not fair. Wait, everyone's supposed to get a turn, and that's not true. Well, everyone does get a turn, but they get it in a different way, and something I've come to appreciate, because here's here's something that if I wasn't a speaker, and if I had not written a book, I would never talk about cancer, because I feel like I'm sitting at the kitty table, and it'd be, quite frankly, like it's hard for me, like I had an easy road, considering cancer. I'm alive. I've had multiple surgeries, but I mean, God, compared to what so many people that I know have gone through and the people that we've lost, it took me a long time to be okay with the fact that I'm alive and to realize too that that's not something I need to apologize for, but especially if I'm gonna be a speaker and talk about having cancer, and in any way, let that, like me benefit from that, then I have to do something with that. That's what gives me the fuel. And I didn't know how to it was the first time that that I wrote f cancer across my chest. It was because a friend of mine had told me about their diagnosis and they were struggling with it, and I just, I didn't know how to help them, and I just, I just wanted to let them know they weren't alone. So literally, that morning, at five in the morning, I grabbed Sharpie and I wrote it on my chest, and I went out and I did the race, and I was expecting people, their kids around. I was a little iffy about using the F bomb, but I think cancer deserves all four letters, and everyone intended to agree with me that day, I was really surprised at just people tell me about their their loved ones they've lost, or the people struggling with it, or about their the people that have thrived. And I mean, I love hearing the survivor stories, because you don't hear enough of them, yeah, and it, what I've realized is you just. People know they're not alone. They just let it's like you're just letting people have told me about, like, their four year old niece while under the barbed wire crawl of a race. I mean, like, clearly, they they need to share. And so if that's if I help even just that little bit, then that's the role I get to play. And I say, get to play. And   Michael Hingson ** 50:19 I'm with you. I hear you. I talk about resilience, I talk about teamwork and trust. And, of course, tell my September 11 story. And I decided to start to do that. Well, first of all, it was my wife and I together. We decided that I should do that, because if we could help people move forward from September 11, and then, of course, later, from so many other things, teach people that blindness isn't the problem they think it is, and teach them about guide dogs and other things like that, then it makes life worthwhile. So I love to tell people today that what we decided was that selling life and philosophy was a whole lot more rewarding and satisfying than managing a computer hardware sales team and selling computer hardware, and it is   Nick Klingenmith ** 51:03 the other night. The conference I spoke at was a sales conference for a company in the logistics industry, but I've been in that industry for 20 years. I've spoken at least at a dozen conferences. However, all of them, except this one, were on sales or logistics, this one was on fear and overcoming adversity and finding purpose and finding purpose in your team and just thriving and leading the charge. And it was, it was such a different experience, and so much more fulfilling, yeah, in that 45 minutes than any of the time I'd ever spoken on another stage.   Michael Hingson ** 51:46 What do you think is your your greatest strength as a speaker? What do you really bring to speaking that makes you so successful at it?   Nick Klingenmith ** 51:56 I think that this will change over time as but I'm going to say right now, it's, it's simply my authenticity, and maybe not even that may not even change over time, but I'm very raw. I'm very vulnerable. I hold nothing back, and the thing I hear most about myself is that I'm relatable, and so I would say that would be be a differentiator, especially if you consider and this isn't a bad thing for someone who is far more known or professional or more of a brand name. It's not like they're not being raw and authentic, but it gets lost on their it gets lost on their audience over time, and you know, when they're more mainstream.   Michael Hingson ** 52:41 What do you think the the most powerful technique or tool is that you use that people do relate to in store, in in speaking,   Nick Klingenmith ** 52:53 I speak directly to them and share personal stories. Yeah, that's yeah. I mean, that's it. When I say I I should send you the link later, but I the talk I did the other night. I Maybe it's nervous energy, but I am just back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. But I'll tell you what, I made eye contact with every single person in that room, every other second throughout the thing I was I speak to them, and they are personal stories, then they're completely naked. There's nothing that I won't hold back because you know who I am now the obstacle course racing book, right? None of that matters if it's not, if I'm not completely honest about who I was, if I try to sell myself as having been someone else or something else, then I'm not going to help anybody. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 53:46 Well, and I find, as a speaker, that stories, and they have to be authentic, has to be you, but that stories make a difference. And I've, I've been in situations where a speaker's bureau hired me to go and deliver a speech, and I get there to find out that the speakers bureau was totally inaccurate and incorrect as to the kind of the organization that it was that I was going to speak to. And it taught me to learn that I have to customize every talk I give, and I need to be able to adjust, if you will, on the fly. Sometimes, in the case of one particular talk that I gave, it was a totally different kind of environment. What I was led to believe, fortunately, I could find stories to tell these people that showed that I related to them, and I got invited back to other parts of the organization later because of that. But I think that stories are the most important thing that we as speakers can bring, and they have to be true. They have to be authentic. Can't make it up. People can see through that. A mile away,   Nick Klingenmith ** 54:58 I feel like I have to tell the. Vegas story. It's the lowest moment of my life, and if it just it also just speaks to all of it in one incident. So it's kind of like it, but if the person who needs to hear it, you know, I, I don't want someone to just see who I am now and not relate   Michael Hingson ** 55:22 well, this podcast is all about unstoppable mindset. What are some ways to develop an unstoppable mindset? Do you think   Nick Klingenmith ** 55:28 for one we got to go through to get through it, we have to develop what we've been talking about, this sort of obstacle immunity, or at least this understanding that there's always going to be a next challenge. If we ever think that the mountain will be climbed. We can't be unstoppable. We simply have to accept that the purpose of life is to continue to climb. That's that's one thing, and how do we keep how do we keep doing that? Then achievement. I'm highly achievement driven. You can call it motivated, but I don't think so. I have to look for carrots. So whether it be personal, professional, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, some sort of development is also how we continue to develop that unstoppable mind. Because the only way to be on there's we can't be 100% unstoppable. We always have to continue to progress and to toughen up and to keep moving for it, one of the things though, that has to be ultimately critical. And people talk about this, but I don't know if they really spend enough time on it. Self belief is the gateway to an unstoppable mindset. You have to believe it before you can see it.   Michael Hingson ** 56:32 Yeah, I'm listening. I just agreed with you. Yeah,   Nick Klingenmith ** 56:36 no, I know I was I was cutting, I was stopping.   Michael Hingson ** 56:39 Yeah, I agree, though. I mean, you've you've got to believe it, and you have to believe it intellectually and in your heart, you have to believe it emotionally as well. It is, as I said, if, if you're not authentic, people will see through you a mile away, no matter what I when, when I started selling, I took a Dale Carnegie sales course, and one of the things that I learned in that course is that the best salespeople are teachers. They're counselors, they guide, but because they're teachers, they also adopt. If they're really successful, stories, they can tell you stories that you, whoever you are, can relate to. And so they've they've analyzed and they understand what you need, and they can tell you stories to show you why what they have will work, or the other side of it is won't work. And I've had that situation happen where I've been selling a product and went into a meeting and learned that clearly what we had didn't work, and it's a choice. Do you still try to push your product on them or not? And I think that that's the worst thing that you can do, is to push a product that's going to jeopardize any relationship you have. And I've told customers in the past, here's why my product won't do what you need. Here's what will. And the result of that has always been calls later that say we really appreciated what you had to say. We've got another opportunity, and you taught us what we need to know your product is perfect. We don't want to put it out to bid. Just tell us a price and we'll order it today. Order it   Nick Klingenmith ** 58:23 today. In the book I published a couple months ago, selling inspired, I actually talk about what I call being a bar stool sales person.   Nick Klingenmith ** 58:34 Just tell personal stories like pretend you're at the bar talking to the prospect, and convey those things, because people do want to buy from people these days, it's tricky, because they are heavily gravitated towards convenience, but so we have to change our approach on how we get to know them, or, more importantly, let them get to know us, especially if you're buying virtually, like a lot of people are These days, it's not the bar stool salesman has to, has to become a social app sales person, essentially. But people buy from people make it easy for them to get to know who you are. Connect on a different level. Because, I mean, I'm even part of a a Spartan group. Excuse me. There's about 15,000 of us in this Facebook community, and we are very strict about not promoting businesses and services and stuff like that. You know, this is supposed to be about obstacle course, racing, tips, tricks, positive vibes, whatever. But I recently suggested, and we just actually implemented something that we're calling it the the What is your profession? Because there's 15,000 people. Now I don't know the 15,000 but I'm actually close. I know several 100, and I'm actually close with several dozen. If any one of those people has a service that I need, I'd rather buy from them, sure. And if any one of them is like, Hey, I do this, and that they're getting the message from me, like you. Said, Hey, Michael, can you do this? Here's my email. Send it done? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:08 yeah, it's still connectionalism, and no matter what, you've gotta be able to connect or you've gotta create an environment where people want to connect with you again, though, that has to be authentic. You can't just fake it. That'll never work. It's   Nick Klingenmith ** 1:00:27 actually, it's hard for a lot of people. Now, I've been lucky for a while because couple things, going back in time, I've actually just been highly passionate about sales. So as far as like social content, I'd post sales, stuff, whatever. But I say that I'm lucky because of my story. I mean that would be like, you say your story. And what I mean by that is we have something different to talk about. I don't have to talk about being a speaker. I talk about things that are helpful to other people, and it just makes it easier, like, easier to engage now with, like, one of the guys that I'm coaching, he has no earthly idea how to start building or putting out any sort of content. And I'm like, bro, what do you like? He's like, like, just and so he actually posted something about the NHL that night, and it got decent content and feedback. Because I was like, he's like, You know what LinkedIn is not for? I go Shut up if we were at a standing at the bar together, like having a at a networking event. I don't want your spec sheet from your company. Yeah, I want to know what you're interested in and get to know you. So tell me, let people get to know you. That's it. Because when they click on your profile, if they don't, if all they see is your business brand, they're like, Okay, great, moving on.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:34 Yeah, it is, it is. It is crazy. We you talked earlier about how we bring up kids, and we bring up children in such a strange way. They don't learn to overcome fea

Self Intelligence? What is that. Well, listen to my conversation this time with Chris Knight to see and discover for yourself. Chris is from Australia where he has lived his whole life. As he was growing up he began encountering some medical issues such as what his doctors diagnosed as chronic pain. He was told he would have to learn to “manage the pain”.   After most of his school education he discovered that he was good at working with and helping people. He worked for an agency helping people to overcome life trauma for example. Eventually, he realized he needed to look further at how he wanted to live his life with pain and he decided he wanted to explore how better to help those around him.   As you will hear, not only did Chris study and find ways to help others, but he also learned how to help himself. He has been totally pain free for many years. He now has his own business working as what some might call a spiritual life coach.   He and I talk about what he calls your lower self and how it tries to take control over your life. He helps us understand how we can connect with our inner self to bring out and live through our higher self. We talk about fear and suffering and how we all can learn not to let those things control who we are.   Chris offers a great deal of good life advice that we all can use. As he tells us at the end of our time together, he works with people throughout the world and he is available to consult with you should you wish it.       About the Guest:   For the past 15 years, Chris Knight, founder of Self Intelligence, has dedicated his career to helping individuals transform their lives from the inside out. His approach focuses on addressing the underlying emotional and psychological patterns that shape people's behaviors, beliefs, and identities. Through a combination of powerful awareness practices and healing processes, Chris helps clients and students confront and heal the root causes of limiting beliefs, childhood conditioning, and emotional wounds. His approach is rooted in the idea that by understanding and releasing the deep-seated trauma and conditioning that often hold us back, people can step into a more authentic and empowered way of living.   Chris's work goes beyond traditional coaching or therapy. He specializes in guiding people through self-discovery and emotional healing by helping them access parts of themselves that are often hidden beneath layers of defense mechanisms and unconscious programming. His clients include people from all walks of life—whether they're struggling with anxiety, self-doubt, or relationship challenges, or addiction Chris techniques help them uncover the core issues that create these difficulties. His methods emphasize self-awareness, emotional resilience, and the ability to break free from the patterns of thought and behavior that no longer serve them. This holistic approach has earned him a reputation as a transformative leader in the field of personal development.   As the founder of Self Intelligence, Chris has not only worked one-on-one with countless students and clients but also developed programs and workshops that allow individuals to take control of their healing journeys. His work empowers people to reclaim their personal power by reconnecting with their true selves, free from the constraints of societal expectations and past conditioning. Over the past decade and a half, Chris has helped people from around the world make profound shifts in their lives, guiding them toward greater emotional freedom, self-acceptance, and the ability to live in alignment with their highest potential.   Ways to connect with Chris:   Website https://chrisknight.com.au/ https://selfintelligence.com/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/chrisknight_selfintelligence/ Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCynX0a9cJdcX9KTnggSxs8A Facebook https://www.facebook.com/chrisknightselfintelligence   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, I really want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. I'm glad Ashley set this up, and we'll have some fun. And as you know, this is all about having a conversation, and that's what makes it really fun. So looking forward to conversing   Chris Knight ** 01:38 Absolutely. Yeah, I'm more than happy to unpack an unstoppable, unstoppable mindset is certainly resonates with the work that I'm offering, and it feels like a really good alignment. So yeah, I'm looking forward to this. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 01:55 why don't we start? I love to start this way, because it's kind of fun and it always lays the groundwork. Tell us something about the early Chris, growing up and all that sort of stuff.   Chris Knight ** 02:06 Well, I mean, that's where all this begins. Well, it does. It absolutely does. My the work that I am offering to the world is something that I personally was supported by from my early 20s. I'm in my very early 40s now. So 20 years ago, I was in a pretty terrible space. I think a lot of people refer to it as like a dark night of the soul. I had a relationship breakdown, I had toxic debt, career dissatisfaction, chronic pain, there was a whole whirlpool of issues that were going on at that time, and I had no idea how to get out of it. I was seeking many different practitioners at that time in the conventional kind of Western approach, but also in the eastern as well to support with the symptoms I was experiencing, as well as mental health with depression, and I wasn't getting any long term results from from a lot of the things that I was I was doing at that time, I was told I was going to have chronic pain for the rest of my life, and I would have to manage that pain because I'd had it for about six years, and they couldn't quite work it out. I think they'd probably call it something like fibromyalgia now, or some other thing, but it was basically this diagnosis of managing a really poor way of living, and I just felt like that wasn't going to be how I was going to live for the rest of my life. Something deep inside me was it was saying, No, this is not for me. So that's when I started looking at myself in a way that I didn't even know was possible, and it certainly wasn't conditioned at school to do this, to go inside and become aware of what's happening behind the eyes. Often we're very aware of what's happening in front of the eyes and everything that's happening, or we become aware of everything outside through our senses, but what's going on in terms of our thoughts, our emotional states, the things that we become identified inside of ourselves, that is a large part of creating our lives, was something I was starting to look at so that, that kicked off this journey. Michael, and I'm imagining a lot of people were listening into this, this podcast with you, an unstoppable mindset would be also in some way, doing this, something like that. And. Of course, there are many different approaches to that, to that investigation and that discovery, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 05:07 sure, absolutely no question about that. Did you go to college?   Chris Knight ** 05:15 Yes, I, well, I, I got almost kicked out of what we call college, I think you would call High School. Still, we're in Australia, it's a bit different. We go to year 10, and then we go to college, which is year 11 and 12, and that prepares you for university. University. Yeah, I didn't go to uni till six, or could have been eight years after college where I did my degree in musculoskeletal therapy, and that's where I that was a major shifting point for me. I quit my very well paying job in the public service, which had a very promising pathway for me, what were you doing? I was a government housing manager. Okay, so I was working with very challenged people in society to look after their tendencies. And it was, it was the first time I realized I had a gift at working with people and helping them deal with their stuff. These people had major challenges, mental health, domestic violence, you know, drug abuse, everything you can really imagine at that a very severe level. And I had a very unique gift with working with these people. So that's where I just I decided I was going to take it further and combine my also experience with chronic physical back pain to go into muscular musculoskeletal therapy. So I moved from Canberra to Brisbane to do that, and that set me on a completely different path. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 06:58 So tell me more about that, what the degree was and how that kind of influenced where you went.   Chris Knight ** 07:05 Well, it I wasn't interested in the paths that felt to me were really isolating and mechanical in their approach to healing. So I went to a holistic School of Natural Medicine, and it was saying that their approach was holistic, essentially, right, which is what appealed to me, because that's how I healed what was going on for me. But I discovered that even though that's what it was stating to be, and certainly in terms of approaching body and body pain, it was holistic in that it would look at the whole body, but it didn't look at the stresses, for example, the internal issues that everybody faces that contributes to our symptoms. Right? So the body mind connection was not a subject, even in this arena, which was holistic medicine. And so that led me to study psychosomatic therapy. I'm not sure if you're aware of those terms. So yes, that oftentimes when people go to doctors, and the doctor will say, you know, this is a psychosomatic issue. This is not a real issue, that what they're saying is that it's all in your mind. So yeah, that's not what this is referring to. Psychosomatic therapy was recognizing the irrefutable body mind connection that has been well documented and just experienced by human beings, that the body and mind are connected is a very obvious thing, for example, if someone's about to go on a podcast, and they might feel a little bit nervous about it, so their body mind connection will report that as far as it might be the heart rate's increasing a little bit, there might be a bit sweaty palms. Who knows these kinds of things will be happening, the body's experiencing what the mind is thinking and believing and all of that is happening. We experience this every single day. And so you can look at that to the degree of how symptoms come about, right? So how do we experience pain and tension or posture and all sorts of things? So that's I had this wealth of knowledge of the body, and then I got the wealth of knowledge of the body mind connection. That was what led there. And then I was a body worker and emotional release facilitator and many different things in that therapeutic journey. For many years, I actually ran my own courses in emotional anatomy, which was very powerful. And then from there, I discovered that there was a missing piece of vital, missing piece in the practical day to day how to work with these things, so not relying on. Therapist to do the inner work. That's where That's where it essentially started to go. Everyone was getting major shifts and changes and discoveries, but not necessarily integrating that in their daily life as a lifestyle. And that's what I became interested in. How does this become a lifestyle, no different to exercise, no different to good eating habits or sleeping habits, many different habits that we know shape and form our lives. I feel as though inner work, which is what I call self intelligence, is what that is. It's a lifestyle choice that is a cornerstone of what generates health, happiness, fulfillment, joy, everything that we basically want in life. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 10:50 did you get the body mind knowledge from the university? Or how did you acquire that?   Chris Knight ** 10:58 It was through Herman Mueller, he ran an institute privately, but it was, it was certified. It was government certified. Actually, it wasn't a university. Universities don't do that kind of thing yet, but he was trying to get it into universities. That's, he's actually passed away. He was around 80 years old at that time, but he was approaching that because, yeah, that's, that's kind of the trajectory that was going at that time. But no, it wasn't at uni. It was, it was a course outside that was government certified, which to me, actually doesn't mean a whole lot. But yeah, yeah, the psychosomatic   Michael Hingson ** 11:42 part of it came from university, but then you expanded on it, obviously,   Chris Knight ** 11:48 yeah, no, this the musculoskeletal therapy was uni, and the psychosomatic was from Herman. Oh, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 11:56 okay, yeah. And well, and what's interesting is that you still found, even after Herman, as I understand, that there was some things lacking in terms of really dealing with the total emotional and mental aspect of it. And obviously it, it was an evolutionary process for you to get to the point of recognizing all of that. But you did, yeah, and what? What I find interesting, and I hear this often. We've had a number of people on the podcast who talked about their own challenges and talked about their the challenges they face with other people. And I'm fascinated and actually quite pleased to hear how many of those people will say that Western medicine really doesn't deal with it, and that Eastern medicine has to become involved. And you obviously took it even to a little bit higher level, but that Eastern medicine is a significant part of it, which really does deal more with the mental and spiritual aspect of a person's psyche and makeup.   Chris Knight ** 13:02 Yeah, well, see, I went to acupuncturist, I went to Ayurvedic medicine practitioners, I went to kinesiologists, I went to energy healers, like I went to I went, I've been around the block. Do you know what I mean? I went to her all around and in every one of those cases, I didn't get the work that I'm speaking to, which is directly dealing with my at the level of identity, where things really take place. And we're going to get into that. And I really delved into that more with my Buddhist practices in meditation. And meditation is widely known to be supportive to all sorts of issues, as many studies on this now it was the closest thing to a lifestyle practice that dealt with these things. What I find is, and I, and I experienced this for myself as well, is a lot of the time when we experience health issues or problems in our lives, often we don't want to take that level of responsibility for it. It's it's preferable to somehow be fixed by someone you know, like, have some kind of therapy intervention, whether it's Eastern or Western, whether it sounds esoteric or whether it sounds like a drug, whatever it is, it doesn't really matter. It's I just want that thing to fix me, and I don't really I'm so confused about what's going on inside me, I don't really understand it, or maybe I'm afraid to look at it because it's often referred to as Shadow Work, which is confronting. That's there's a there's a hesitancy to go into those places. And I but I find that that's where the core of the the issues are, in the dark places. There. Uh, that require, yeah, putting the light on. So I think you're   Michael Hingson ** 15:04 absolutely right. We, we in general, seem to be creatures that love, especially today, a quick fix to fix, and it's got to fix everything, and we don't take the time to analyze and look at ourselves very much. We don't get taught that. No one teaches us that, and fortunately, some people are learning it, but not nearly as much, or as often as it as it should be. I believe in doing a lot of self analysis, self analytical thinking, and I take time at the end of each day to look at what went on today. Why did it go on the way it did? What? What am I afraid of, or what was, what was I afraid of? And I, and I do, find that the more of it I do, and the more I think about all of it over time, the less fearful I become. And it isn't to say I'm not afraid, or it isn't it isn't to say I don't fear, but rather, I learn how to deal with it. We wrote a book about it that actually got published in August of 2024 called Live like a guide dog. And it's all about learning to control fear, and it's lessons I've learned from dogs, from my eight guy dogs and my wife's service dog. You know, for example, one of the my favorite examples, is that dogs don't do what ifs and we What if everything to death, which is what's so unfortunate, rather than worrying about just the things over which we really can have an influence in control. We worry about everything, and it just drives us crazy.   Chris Knight ** 16:47 Yeah, yeah, I completely agree, and I'd like to, because I I've noticed there's a there's a resistance to the word analysis for a lot of people, or anything that's mental when it comes to healing. I you know, because we're questioning our mind, we're questioning our thoughts, we're questioning our insides. We're looking at our insides. And it's important to view this as awareness work, not not mental work. Mental work is below the awareness in which we are looking at it. And from that perspective, it's a totally different vibration, right? And and so what it does do, exactly what you said, is it brings up awareness around things like, how many, what if thoughts have, I let dictate my decisions today, or dictate my emotional state today that I believed and became embodied with, right? And the question is, okay, I have these, what if thoughts? How then do I dis identify from those thoughts so they're not driving my behavior, my choices, which essentially is creating the reality that I'm experiencing. That is a really important question, and it takes disidentification, which is not mental work. Mental cannot disidentify. Mental can only create more mental so I just wanted to make sure that that was something understood in the approach. Because for the you know, for example, with with emotional anatomy and Psychosomatics, the notion was that the emotions are held in the body. You know, the emotions are stored in the body, because we have the fight flight process. And that that when you have fear like what you spoke about, you engage the fight flight process, the survival mechanism, yeah, and then that puts a charge in the body to be expressed in terms of, you know, fighting something running away from something freezing, pleasing. There's a whole range of different things that happen, and so that gets stored in the body, because often we suppress these expressions, and then it's like, okay, in order to heal from that, we have to release it from the body. Okay? So that's the current consensus for a lot of people. So when they hear about analysis, it's like, how does that release emotion from the body? You see that becomes a contentious point for some people.   Michael Hingson ** 19:28 Change it to introspection, then, yeah. I mean,   Chris Knight ** 19:32 I just noticed this. Like, yeah, introspection is a really good term. I also love using that term. But the point is, is that the body will not hold energy when the mind's not perceiving, particularly in the unconscious, that there's a threat as soon as the as soon as there's not a threat in the in the unconscious, there's no threat in the body, the body will not hold anything the. Body is neutral, actually. And I noticed that in my work, trying to, I was doing a lot of emotional release body work, which was hugely powerful, and still is powerful, particularly when it shifts the unconscious. But it would, there would be this reliance, again, on someone doing this thing to me that releases the emotions out of my body, and it's like, Look, you are way more powerful than this. You have the power for yourself to release or detach from the very thoughts and patterns that generate this in your body, but you would then have to do that work yourself, in a sense, right, which often involves support by a practitioner, a coach. I do this every day of the week, or in connection with the community that does this kind of thing, right? Yeah, but it's a different level of responsibility in the attitude of approaching it that way. And I'm, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, that's, that's, I'm finished with that.   Michael Hingson ** 21:08 But one of the things that I've learned, especially over the last year, I used to to always say, when I listen to my speeches, I like to record speeches and listen to them. And I always used to say, I do that because I'm my own worst critic. And I've you know, if, if I'm being critical, that's the really most important thing. And I've learned over the last year that's not the right thing to say I heard, and one I don't even remember now exactly where, but that nobody can teach you anything. You are the one who has to teach yourself. Other people can present you with information, they can give you the information that you need to learn, but you're the one that has to teach you. And I thought about that, and I realized that is so true, I'm not my own worst critic, I'm my own best teacher. And then that makes a complete positive shift to everything, because now I I approach things in a much more positive way. I don't approach things as well. This is potentially negative, and I've got to pick on me to fix it. No, I hear this, or I see this, and I can now look at it and go, Why am I reacting to it? And an animal. Well, instead of analyzing out and think about you, use the   Chris Knight ** 22:25 word you want to use, either one works   Michael Hingson ** 22:29 or think about it. But I I study it, and I go, all right, what? What can I learn from this? And that's what's really important. And I think that is, is so important that people need to do another thing that I learned from working with a lot of Guide Dogs and so on, is that while dogs love unconditionally, they don't trust unconditionally, but what they do is they're unless something has just totally damaged their psyche. They're open to trust, and they want to trust, and they want to be connecting with us, and they want us to be the team leader. They want to know what the rules are that we expect in a positive way, but they want to develop that relationship. And working with guide dogs, it's all about trust and teamwork right from the beginning. And the fact is that when you establish a trusting relationship, and you learn to trust the dog, and the dog learns to trust you, and you each recognize you have a job to do. Namely, the dog's job is to make sure that I walk safely, but my job is to know where to go and how to get there, and I have to communicate that to the dog with directions. And if I do that in a firm way, then we work together as a team. And the whole concept of being open to trust is so important. Yeah, there are going to be people within the agendas. They're going to be people whose trust you're not going to earn, and that's that is understandable, but be open to trust, and don't let a negative trusting experience destroy you or or cause you to not want to trust. Recognize that's only one individual. Most people are really good, and they do want to establish trusting relationships. I think, well,   Chris Knight ** 24:24 I mean, trust is one of the most important things, and one of the areas I'm working with all the time, particularly with relationships. Relationships is a is a major subject. I have people come to me because they have challenges, triggers going on in their relationships that continue to create a bit of a toxic cycle, or distance or withdrawing and so on. And it all comes back to trust at the end of the day. That's where it ends up, and it's the important question that is rarely asked. And or understood is, how is trust lost at the subtle levels we understand how trust is lost in more gross experiences, meaning, like denser expressions, like you know, whether it's physical violence or emotional abuse, or whether it's like cheating or just not doing what you say, there's all sorts of things there that will create mistrust. But actually mistrust is is is created on much more subtle levels than that. And if we don't understand our minds and the projections of our minds, like, for example, what we think we're entitled to and deserve, and what, yeah, what we feel is within our space of control and ownership, all of those projections go on To the other person and become a form of mistrust, yeah, but that is so unconscious. This is the thing it's I didn't know. For example, I didn't know that my unconscious insecurities, right, that were creating a certain type of expectation in the relationship was actually creating a mistrust between us that was then creating a barrier and a withdrawing for example, because whenever those things are happening, it's repulsive, like it has a repulsive, energetic about it, and then we all of a sudden see that there's something wrong, there's a distance happening. But how do I how do I navigate to this? Because I cannot see that my actions are really warranted in creating this issue. Okay, so this is, this is what's happening for a lot of people, and this is where this work becomes absolutely critical, because it's those little things, it's those subtler background issues right that all stem in insecurity, that come from the lower self, that really erode relationships and erode trust. And then it amounts to over time, big issues essentially just to represent what's going on inside, and it becomes like this, you know, destructive manifestation in people's lives. And then you know that there's all sorts of wounding and shame and guilt and everything that comes with with that, but we can catch these things way early on. But like you said, we're not taught at school, like we're not taught at school, we're not taught at school or at home. That by nature of being a human being, you have insecurities you're unaware of that are going to manifest in your life, particularly in relationships, but also in your work and various other areas, that unless you deal with them, they're going to cause you all sorts of problems. They're going to cause you, cause you suffering, right? And it and by achieving things like success or status and various other external things, these don't deal with those underlying insecurities. They don't, they don't actually solve the issue. And we are believing that they do based on our conditioning. We're told that if we are normal and if we meet the criteria that that feels like this is a life that's, you know, I could be proud of, then I will feel secure. And it's not true. It's just fundamentally not true, and yet, because we don't know any different, we just keep trying the same thing, expecting a different result, and that's really frustrating. I think for a lot of people, it is   Michael Hingson ** 28:59 we don't learn to connect with ourselves, and we also don't learn to, oftentimes, be open enough to say to someone else, you know, there's a distance between us. And I'm, I don't really like that. Tell me what you think. Tell me why that is, is what? What do I need to do? What can we do together to fix this, and that's it is an issue that we just don't learn to connect, which is too bad, because, again, I think that it's all about communications. Well, tell me more about this whole concept of self intelligence, where did that come from? And what is it? And so on.   Chris Knight ** 29:37 Well, that's what that exactly what we're speaking about is what it is so. So, for example, when I have a couple in front of me, and they've got these things going on, and they've got that distance happening, and maybe they did acknowledge it, right? And then they did have a conversation about it, like you suggested. They said, like, what are we going to what are we going to do? And they both find out very quickly that they they don't know. What the issue is, it's like I just can't understand why I'm feeling these really strong feelings over things that certainly don't match up. I'm I think I'll just try to be a better person, and maybe that will work. And this is what people try to do. They try to be a better person. They try to be a good person, and then it doesn't make a difference, because that's not that's not how these things work. Being a good person won't deal with things like insecurity, and then they find themselves in the same pattern, in the same cycle, and we still, we're going through the same thing again. So I'm going to ask someone else now how to deal with this now, unfortunately, for a lot of people, they still don't get this type of information with counselors and psychologists, although some do. Thankfully, some are really great, but most don't have this knowledge either, and that's what I saw. I saw this huge gap where, okay, let's boil down what's really happening here. We work it blow by blow in terms of unpacking the what I call the lower self. So we don't, for example, self intelligence is really the journey from the lower self to the higher self. Okay, that's how you could consider it. So what is the lower self. The lower self is often referred to as your shadow self, or your ego. Sometimes you can refer to it as your unconscious mind. This is the kind of place that we operate from that often holds the energetic of survival mode. So often, if you think of lower self, you'd almost think of the lower brain stem, which holds the survival aspects of our impulses, right, right? And when we're living from the lower self, which we all are, like everybody's living from this lower self. Firstly, everything's external, everything that's happening is out there, and it's happening to me, and that could be good or that could be bad, and there's a range of protection mechanisms for the lower self, like judgment and fear that cause it whole bunch of issues. Okay? It also has needs. The lower self has needs that are called ego needs that also cause it a whole bunch of drama, right, like the need to win, the need to know, the need to be right, the need to be supported, the need. There's all these needs, okay, and those needs create us a fundamental sense of lack in the person inside who is living this life. So this is all unaware of that's going on. Yeah, yeah. And so self intelligence is the intelligence of understanding, putting the light on that dark space that's in us that is running everything. Okay? People know this is happening when they they could make a decision. When we make decisions, we often go, God, why did I make that decision? Like, say it was a job or something like that. I was like, I knew in myself that wasn't the job for me. I don't know why I said yes, but it ended up turning out to be really misaligned with me. That's the lower self. That's the lower self kicking in and taking over. And this happens with people experiencing addiction. It happens when people don't feel like they're living their purpose. It happens for a whole range of reasons. It's like, so what's what's then making my choices like, if I know better, somewhere deep inside of me, what? What is taking over? And this is the lower self. This is what self intelligence is about. Is one becoming aware of the lower self, becoming just very clear about it. And I have a, I have a step by step, blow by blow, process that illuminates the lower self in clear view. It can it has no wriggle room to hide, because the lower self is the best hider that you can imagine. It loves hiding and running the show. It just it goes into any subject matter. It doesn't matter what it is, it will find a place to hide and then run the whole show. That's what it does. It's like, I'm going to hide over here and then call all the shots. Forget.   Michael Hingson ** 34:31 It gets back. It gets back to connecting and really connecting with yourself, which is what we don't generally tend to learn to do.   Chris Knight ** 34:39 Yeah, and connecting with yourself to the degree that you become aware, yes, of the drivers. For example, when you said, what if? What if is a is one of the lower self's favorite words, right? So when you become, oh, I just got that, what if, thought I'm aware of it now, right? Now? I have a choice. Whereas before, when I wasn't aware of that, what if thought I didn't really have a choice other than to react to that thought, whereas now that I'm aware of that thought, well, I can either take another look and see if this is a real danger that I'm dealing with and respond appropriately, or I can realize that that's a, you know, an illusory thought that I can dis identify with. So this is just one example sure that of how that works. So self intelligence is that, but it's also the process of discovering your higher self and your higher self is also known as your natural state. So this is your state, that is who you are, before you became conditioned with a whole range of beliefs, and before you became identified with a whole bunch of things in your life. There is no fundamental issue with conditioning or identity. You gotta be the one to discern whether those things cause you suffering like whether they're serving you or not. That's the That's the important thing, but, but, but beyond all of those things, you existed prior to, for example, your name. Like everybody was given a name at birth, you existed prior to your name, true or not, so you were in the boom, true you you were there before a name came, and then a name came after. Now what happens is we identify with that name, and then we associate that name with who we are, right? Yes, the identification process is the lower self, the part of you that realizes that you're not your name, but the name is connected to this body, mind, which is very important to practical reality, right? That's your higher self. It's the witnessing presence, the observer behind everything that's taking place. And self intelligence is the is the art of empowering yourself to live through your higher self. That that that that that consciousness that you are. So why would you want to live from that place? Because it is freedom, like if we take a a very honest look at our lives, the most the suffering that we're experiencing is coming from inside of us, like someone right now could be sitting here listening to this podcast with a whole bunch of problems in their life, like relationship, finances, all sorts of things, but in this present moment, the problem don't exist in the way that the mind is threatened by all of these things that are going on. These are real issues. The these are real they're not. It's not saying that those are real issues, but suffering them is what happens with the mind. And so if you want, if anyone wants to free themselves from the inside, they have to understand what's happening inside themselves in order to do that, yeah, and so that that's, that's literally what self intelligence is. And there's many forms of this on the planet, in different variations with different names. This is just one term to describe that, that pathway, yeah, well,   Michael Hingson ** 38:39 you know, it's it's interesting. Again, we worry about so many things. We're afraid of so many things, or we fear so many things, and well over 90% of them will never happen. And they're also things over which we really don't have any control, but, but we worry about them because rather than paying attention to the things over which we really do have some influence and control, we worry about everything else. It's so much easier to do, at least we think it is. But in reality, I think that focusing on the things that we really can have an effect on, I think is extremely important to do. I remember when I was running from tower two in the World Trade Center at one point, I thought, God, I can't believe that you got us out of a building just to have it fall on us. And then immediately I heard, as clearly as you hear me now, a voice that said, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running, in this case, with my guide dog, Roselle, and the rest will take care of itself. And I've had that as kind of a mantra ever since that day. Don't worry about the things that you can't control. Focus on the things that you can, because the rest of it isn't going to really be anything that you have any control over. Anyway, it was so easy, and I know people who did, who were just afraid. As we went down the stairs in the World Trade Center, the building was going to collapse. It's going to fall off. We're going to die. And in fact, some people said that. From my perspective, I will tell you that I was listening for any creaking groan in the building in case something happened. But I didn't let that worry me, because I knew that what I needed to do was to keep myself and my guide dog focused, especially keeping my guide dog focused, because Roselle would have and dogs do tend to have higher senses on a lot of levels than we do, and so if suddenly Roselle started to behave in a way that I didn't expect, then I could look at that and deal with it and figure out what was happening, which was my job, but if I worried about everything else, I couldn't focus on her and tell her she's doing a good job. Keep going. What a good dog and all that. And that's what I needed to do, and that's what I learned to do. Because what I did was to learn all I could about the World Trade Center, which created a mindset. And I didn't even realize it, but it created a mindset that said, if there's an emergency in the World Trade Center, you know what to do to deal with it. And that's exactly what happened to me. And so I was able to to deal with it and not worry about all the stuff that I had no control over, and I'll tell you, I have a very vivid imagination. I'm a science fiction lover. I've read lots of horror books and all that. So I imagine things that were probably a whole lot worse even than happened. But by the same token, I didn't let that overwhelm me, because I had something more important to do, and that is to keep me and a puppy dog focused.   Chris Knight ** 41:46 Yeah, that's you know, that I often find that disasters bring out the best in a lot of people, not everyone, but I do tend to find that all of a sudden there's this ability to prioritize things and really be the kind of people that we want to be in with each other. And like I said, That's not all the time, but there is a pattern in humanity that when we're in crisis, all of a sudden this this part of us comes out that seems to be like what we'd love to see in each other's lives all the time. What I tend to find is the discernment of what we're in control of and what we're not in control of is less there when we're not in crisis, when we're in an ordinary life, and when we're getting irritations by, you know, the people that we're working with or our partners, and the expectations that we hold for them, and the judgments that we have about them and ourselves, and our fears about what other people think, and all of that kind of thing is, is just the discernments not there. And so what happens is the reaction patterns that come from that start to play out, and then you get a certain, a certain kind of low level to high level anxiety depression, which is really just experiences a certain kind of I'm not feeling right in myself, like I don't feel comfortable in my own skin somehow, like something doesn't ever feel like I feel content. There's just this slight irritation in the system kind of going on.   Michael Hingson ** 43:31 Survival Mode kicks in, and it creates this whole negative environment where I've got to just do what I'm used to doing to survive, and we don't allow ourselves to stretch and grow,   Chris Knight ** 43:45 yeah, yeah, yeah. Because everybody has a calling inside of them, I feel that everybody has this knowing that they're here to learn and grow and to express a part of themselves that's very unique, but there's a fear that it won't be acceptable, it won't be received, it will be rejected, and maybe it has been in the past, by parents, by siblings, by, you know, people in the schoolyard, whatever the case. And it's a real shame, because that light inside of us becomes dim through through conditioning and through accepting that, and through the survival mode that you're talking about. And the work that I'm offering is for those people who know that that's there inside of them and want to know how to get out of their own way so that can come through, so that their their natural gifts and talents, their capacity to love, their capacity for connection, as you've been saying. Saying can actually be experienced in this life, right? Because there's a feeling like my my experience is so limited by this person inside of me who is controlling everything or needs control in the way that you're talking about, and I'm in my own way. And how do I get out of it? How do I get out of my own way? To have these experiences, to have this growth, right to to take this absolutely miracle of experience, like the scientists that they just cannot believe, like for someone to be bought, for you to be born is an absolute miracle. The odds of you being born, the way that it happens through billions of sperm, and you know, this whole process that takes place with with birth is like you're you're an absolute miracle, right? And we all know this intuitively, and there's a lot of shame in the system when we don't feel like we're giving this life our fullest because we're in our own way. You know, there's, there's a lot of shame that builds up with that. And yeah, and I feel like I'm I felt that way myself, that I'm speaking to my my lower self. That's I, that's what I experienced, was that, and fortunately, I was guided towards the ways in which to unlock that inner potential. Yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 46:33 your chronic pain went away along the way.   Chris Knight ** 46:35 Yeah, yeah. It went away very quickly. Actually, it was one of the things that really shifted very fast, I just lowered back pain. Yeah, that was one of the, one of the many things that came into alignment amongst many other things, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 46:54 So in a sense, you were, you were, if you will, causing your own pain. Oh, absolutely,   Chris Knight ** 46:59 yeah, absolutely, yeah. Because sometimes it's not like that. Sometimes it's a, it's an ergonomic thing. It's a, you know, it's an injury kind of thing, like this and that that is the case. It's not always like psychosomatic, if you want to call it, that body mind. But this was because of the chronic nature of it. I tell people, when it comes to this work, you're looking for patterns. You're looking for things that keep showing up and they're not shifting, they're not healing. So what that's saying is, there's something that's not been addressed inside that has to be looked at, you know, and so that that's I've worked with a lot of people with weight issues. I over overweight, and they're doing all the right things, they're eating the right food, they're exercising, and they're like, the weights not shifting. It's like, look, there's something else going on internally that that says that due to your perceptions, your beliefs, your experiences, that you have to continue to protect yourself in a certain way that's holding that weight. And until you address that, your weight is going to be very hard to shift. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 48:03 I know I used to be a lot more overweight than I am now, and I made the conscious decision to deal with it. And one of the things that I did was changed eating habits a little bit, but yeah, mostly it was again, a mindset, and since I began losing weight, I have lost about 85 pounds in the last five years. And so I'm very happy with that, and I'm not going to let it come back. And that's the way it ought to be. But, but I also know that it was a lot of me connecting with myself and recognizing that I had to make some changes, both in mindset and in food, but yes, also Yeah, but especially in mindset,   Chris Knight ** 48:56 yeah, yeah. I I felt the same way, like all the therapies that were trying to support my symptoms started to become way more effective when I was dealing with my internal so they all have their place. Everything has its place. Diet has its place. Therapies have their place. Drugs have their place. Everything has its place. It's up to us to understand how to discern when and where and how much of those things are necessary in our lives. You know? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's the thing. And that decide I use this word discernment quite a bit, because discernment is the is the major aspect of self intelligence that as society and as human beings, that I feel as though we require development of. You know, we know this with children like they children have an adult in their life, because the adult can discern what's dangerous, what's not dangerous. The adult can discern if there's a boogie man under the bed or not. You know, where a child's mind will go off into all sorts of. Places, you know, and the adult can kind of ground them back to something that's safe and understandable. But we have to be that adult to ourselves. We have to be that adult to our own inner child so that we can discern what's happening, and the child inside, it does what the child does when it feels uncomfortable and so on. It just goes to the parent to get some kind of whatever it is, to get the boob, to get the dummy, to get the comfort, the relief of some kind they're not responsible for what's happening it's the adult who's responsible. And many people are living their lives internally as a child and the feeling completely overwhelmed by life, because the child like mind is not supposed to be taking on those kinds of responsibilities, and yet it's trying to, and it's suffering, and in order to cope with the overwhelm, it will employ things like distractions, addictions, to to to basically deal with the the uncomfortable sensation of that overwhelming stress and the amount of man, the amount of distractions that we can employ these days, and it will be experienced as procrastination, you know, it'll be experienced as perfectionism. It'll be experienced as sabotaging behaviors. It'll be experienced as energetically prostituting ourselves in situations that don't necessarily serve us. It shows up in all these different facets, and what that's saying is that that discernment and that that that adults like quality hasn't been yet developed to the point where you can trust yourself, and it's still then looking outside for the answers, where the the answers inside. And this is, this is a major shift. I feel it's taking place on the planet right now, because the more that technology develops as well. Our discernment is more and more necessary. What can we trust? What can't we trust? What information can we rely on or not? Becomes harder and harder as technology increases, so discernment is even more and more important. And I found it interesting that as artificial intelligence birth itself, so did self intelligence in like unison with that, which is actually a really beautiful compliment when they come together in the right way. But without that, they it could be, you know, it's likely to be another kind of tool that weaponizes against itself. So what   Michael Hingson ** 52:38 kind of practices can we employ to learn to live better through our higher selves?   Chris Knight ** 52:45 There are three primary practices that I'm most interested in that I feel get the best results, and I see get the best results, and they're tried and tested to get the best results in this particular area that we're speaking to. The first is self inquiry. And self inquiry is the is the questioning which it's an awareness practice. I just want to repeat that it's not a mental practice. It's it's a line of questioning that allows you to become aware of the unconscious programming and belief systems and traumas and wounding that are driving your actions and behavior and choices, that are creating your reality. So this, this is extremely important to become aware of those things and not to assume that you're aware of them. If you're seeing symptoms in your life, like I had to come to terms with this myself, right? Because everyone thinks they know themselves. Everyone believes they know themselves. I know who I am, right? Everyone has this strong conviction. I know who I am. It takes life to cause a fair bit of pain to go you know what? Maybe I don't know myself as well as I thought I did, right? And maybe there's some room for growth, and maybe there's some room to learn some things about myself. So you have to have that degree of attitude, which unfortunately, usually takes people a lot of pain, even like a dark night, to even get to that point. But that's the first step. Is to have a very clear, simple line of inquiry to illuminate that stuff, and to also have the line of inquiry, which is all in the one package of self inquiry to dis identify with limiting beliefs and negative emotional states that aren't serving you, right? So that's the first step. So self inquiry does that. The second step is to be in the vibration of your higher self on a daily basis. No different to exercising on a daily basis or other habits that serve there are many habits brushing your teeth on a daily basis, whatever it is to actually just be in the full experience of your. Higher Self, which is a guided meditation kind of process, and to do that daily. And what that does is that creates the space internally to be able to see those thoughts. Because if you don't have that space, you just are the thoughts. There's no there's no distinction there. And if the viewers listening to this tried meditation didn't work for me, that type of thing. Do not think about it like strict versions of meditation that that that was like I was trying to stop my mind, or this type of thing. It's not like that. I call these self recognition practices. So this the second step is self recognition. Recognize, recognize that you are the witnessing consciousness of everything that includes everything externally and everything internally. And just sit with that, sit with that recognition. And what happens is your vibration goes up naturally. You start to feel calm, peace, joy, creative, all of these natural things, inspired, enthusiastic. There's all this natural energy there, and you don't do and you're not making it up. You're not creating it. You're not trying to will yourself into those states. It's just what happens when you do this. So that's the second step. The third step I call self regulation, which is the physical body's way of coming out of the survival mode. So I teach that through body tremor, through body release and through breath work. So when the nervous system is kicked off, this could be anything. It could be like some stressful thing at work, or some jealousy issue in your relationship, or some because it's bring up some trauma. It's like, look, I'm going to take a few moments. I'm going to get myself regulated before I have a conversation, for example, or before I go on with this task, or whatever I'm going to do. It could be that I'm procrastinating. Procrastination is a survival mechanism. So it's like, I can do some breath work, and then all of a sudden I'm freed up. It's like, all of a sudden I'm good to go like that procrastination, that barrier, That invisible barrier of taking action, is no longer there anymore, and so it's another it's the physical version of coming out of that lower state of the lower self. And that's it. Those three practices are plenty enough to implement. Now the second practice, self recognition, that's a daily practice, self inquiry, often is something people use when they get triggered by things you know, like something happens, someone says something, a situation occurs, and you're not accepting reality. You're you're you're not okay with what's happening, and therefore certain perceptions, beliefs and thoughts have triggered off there to inquire, to come out of that state, because at the end of the day, it's a fear based vibration that you're in, and nothing you do in the fear vibration is going to serve anything per like useful so similar to if you were going into a rip in the ocean, panicking is never going to be the best thing to do. So it's just recognizing that nothing I do on the from the state of fear and judgment and ego based needs are going to like create as a result that I actually want, but we think that it will right? So we react to things all the time, we project things all the time, and think it's going to get us what we want, and it doesn't do that. It gets us actually the opposite of what we want. And so that's something we have to come to terms with. So that happens a lot of the time. Yeah, when we get triggered, if you're feeling really insecure about something, if you're noticing certain negative judgments, there's, there's all the different triggers for self inquiry. But it's more on a case by case basis that that's happening, and that could be like a 10 minute process, 510 minute process. And same with the that's the same with the self regulation, that that's also a five to 10 minute process to come out of that state. And it's it, what? What is it all saying? It's saying I'm prepared to look after my vibration. I know that in a higher vibration, things work out. Things go into flow, things seem to synchronize. Things seem to look after me in a way that's more serving and natural when I'm in the lower state. It's like the world's against me. It's like everything's like pushing shit uphill. It's just difficult, it's hard work. It's like the world's against me somehow. And it's like, I don't want to live from that state. I don't want to be make. Decisions from that state. I don't want to be relating in my relationships and my kids and everything else from that state, because it just creates more and more problems. So yeah, those are the those are the three processes, self recognition, self inquiry and self regulation. Yeah. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:17 basically, are you a life coach? Yeah?   Chris Knight ** 1:00:21 Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'd be sort of known as a spiritual life coach, because, only because I deal at the level of identity, which is where people usually use the word spiritual. I don't use the word spiritual because it has too many it's too much of a loaded word,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:38 even though that's what it is, yeah,   Chris Knight ** 1:00:39 that is what it is, because we're just dealing with disidentification semantics, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, there's no limit to the kind of issues that I work with in people's lives. I tend to find that I work with certain themes more than others, like the people in my community at the moment, and the clients that I have is very it's a very diverse thing, like it could be jealousy and relationship for one person, another person's coming out overcoming an eating disorder or body dysmorphia. Someone else is dealing with a sexual abuse trauma. Someone else has got dad wounds from childhood that have caused them to be narcissist in their work life, and it's causing them all sorts of problems. So they're dealing with narcissistic issues. So it's so to the core of what's going on for us that it's very holistic in that way.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:37 Yeah. So what is your business called?   Chris Knight ** 1:01:41 My name, it's, it's self intelligence is the method, is the the teaching. And my name is Chris Knight, and I'm the founder of that. So that's, that's essentially what that is. So people say, go see Chris if they recognize a certain problem. And he's like, I think he'll be able to help you out with that particular thing. There   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:01 you go. Have you written any books yet?   Chris Knight ** 1:02:05 I've, I haven't published a book. I've written a textbook in emotional anatomy, and I've got a podcast, a self intelligence podcast, where I do live sessions with people, which is pretty amazing for people to do that, to do live sessions, and I definitely intend to write various books, but yeah, at the moment, I'm just continuing to refine the self intelligence program. The it has gone through many updates to keep it as simple and as user friendly to people as possible, given that it's a lifestyle approach. And yeah, that's that's where it's at at the moment. So   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:54 if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Yeah,   Chris Knight ** 1:02:58 so they look up Chris knight.com.au, and you'll find everything there. The two offerings I have is one, I do one on one coaching with people on everything that we just spoke about today, and I often have a discovery call with people, just to make sure that they feel like I'm the right fit for them, for what they're dealing with. And two, I have a community, because everything that I'm doing is lifestyle based. So the meditation, the self inquiry and the self regulation, these are intended to become habits in our life, like exercise and other things. So it's like going to the gym. Actually, you can go to the gym and get an instructor, right? That's like the one on one coach. You can get an instructor and they support you through it. Or you can just be a member at the gym and then go whenever you like. Yeah, so we just come off the back of a 30 day self inquiry commitment, which involved four different practices, like four different inquiry processes, and we do challenges like that all throughout the year. We meet on a weekly basis to do integration, because integration is often what's lacking for a lot of people in the self development space, where they have a big explosive like heart opening experience for, you know, in a conference or a workshop or something like that. But then they go back to their old habits when they get back into their daily life, and it's like, how do you integrate that vibration that I know, I now know, is possible in my daily life? That's what integration these integration sessions are for, and they're weekly. So that's what that that community is all about. So, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:42 So again, it's Chris Knight, C, H, R, I S, K, N, I, G, H, t.com/a, u.com.com, dot A, U, sorry, yeah,   Chris Knight ** 1:04:51 yeah. I think if you just, if, I think if you just Google Chris Knight on its own, I think I'm the top are you on LinkedIn as well? Well, ah, no, no, no, no, I'm not okay, no, no, but I think on top of the search, but it might depend on where you're at in the world.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:10 Now I know how to find you. Chris, Chris Knight, now that's that's no problem,   Chris Knight ** 1:05:14 or search, or search, self intelligence.com, self   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:18 intelligence.com, which makes sense as well. Yeah, so   Chris Knight ** 1:05:21 you'll get there. You'll get there to me as well. And you know this is for people who want, who know in their hearts, they know that looking after your internal world is important, as to looking after your body in and to just have a small amount of time per day to do that as a lifestyle, but also when you feel like you're in the trenches, or you feel like you really require someone to hold your hand, in a sense, to get through some stuff, that's where the one on one sessions are there. And I work with people in America. I work with people all over the world, because we can do this right? And this is fortunately for what I offer. This works perfectly. It is not a barrier or an issue at all. In person is not necessary. It works great. So,   Michael Hingson ** 1:06:12 yeah, well, I want to thank you for taking the time to be here and talk about all this. It has been fun. And every time i i hear the kinds of things that you're talking about, that also tend to validate a lot of my thoughts. I like that as well, but I learn a lot, and as I as I love to tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else on this podcast, I'm not doing my job very well. So I really appreciate you being here, and I have learned a lot today. So I want to thank you for that, and I want to thank you all for listening. So wherever you're listening, please, we'd love to hear from you. You can reach me at Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael Hinkson is m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, we'd love to hear from you, and please, wherever you're listening, give us a five star review. We value your reviews. We value your thoughts, and we especially do love those, those great reviews, so please keep them coming. We are very joyous to get those and we feel very blessed. If you know anyone who you think ought to be a guest on our podcast, Chris, that includes you. If you know anyone you think we ought to be chatting with, please let us know we're always looking to meet new people and make new friends. And as I've told Chris and I tell everyone who comes on the podcast, the only rule about being on the podcast is you gotta have fun. Otherwise, where is this engine doing it right? Exactly, exactly. So once, once more, I want to thank you, Chris for being here. This has been absolutely fun. So thank you very much. Thank   Chris Knight ** 1:07:50 you so much as well. I appreciate all your your effort and just your life story and the fact that you were just a living inspiration to anyone who feels that they have victimized by life, you have shown that you can thrive in this world beyond that whole narrative, and that's what this is all about.   Michael Hingson ** 1:08:14   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we a

And as if the above title weren't enough, Paul Hylenski is also a 5-time successful author, a pilot and a public speaker. Paul grew up in Delaware. He joined the Marines in 1999 and stayed with the Corps until 2007. He then left to join a large company and, as he put it, got the opportunity to observe both good and bad leaders. He and I talk quite a bit about leaders and leadership. I asked him if he observed bad leadership in the Marines. He said that people being human do find themselves not leading properly in and out of the marines. His insights about this are best left for him to tell.   Along the way Paul formed his company, Quantum Leap Academy. His company was formed to provide comprehensive training in AI technologies. He also formed VetMentor.ai, a service designed to assist military members in navigating the complexities of disability claims and career transitions with the aid of AI.   As you may be able to gather, AI is a subject Paul has learned a great deal about. He discusses how we all can use it much more than we do in ways that can and will benefit us along our life journeys.   Time passed for me quickly talking with Paul. He would love to hear from you, veteran or not. He has much to offer as you will see.       About the Guest:   Paul Hylenski is a dynamic business leader, software programmer, and motivational speaker with a deep passion for leveraging technology to enhance community and personal growth. After serving in the Marine Corps, Paul founded Quantum Leap Academy, a platform dedicated to providing comprehensive training in AI technologies. His vision extends into healthcare, where he has launched BioMarker Detect, an early cancer detection company. Paul's entrepreneurial spirit is complemented by his authorship, notably of his book 'Error-Proofing Humans,' which explores the intersection of human error and technological solutions. Paul's commitment to veteran affairs is evident through VetMentor.AI, a service designed to assist military members in navigating the complexities of disability claims and career transitions with the aid of AI. His efforts to democratize technology education are also showcased in his development of courses like 'Introduction to AI for Teens' and specialized training for veterans. Outside of his professional endeavors, Paul enjoys piloting aircraft and spending quality time with his family. His forward-thinking approach and dedication to service have made significant impacts across multiple sectors, particularly in AI education and veteran support.   Ways to connect with Paul:   LinkedIn : (1) Paul Hylenski | LinkedIn Website : www.quantumleapacademy.org   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello everyone, and pleasant greetings to you wherever you happen to be today. I am Michael Hingson, the host of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. It's a lot of fun to be here. I really appreciate you joining us today. Hope that you have as much fun listening as I and our guest have in bringing this to you, I tell everyone who's going to come on the podcast that there is only one rule that everyone has to follow on the podcast or we won't do it, and that is, you have to have fun. And Paul Hylenski is definitely a person who said he would him force himself to do that. So Paul, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here   Paul Hylenski ** 02:02 today. Thank you so much. Michael, appreciate it. Thank you for having me on Well, Paul is a   Michael Hingson ** 02:08 former Marine. He is the founder and CEO of something called Quantum Leap. He does various things with AI and technology. He is a leader by any standard. He's authored, if I recall write five books anymore, any more coming up in the queue, we'll have to learn about that. But definitely not a person who is idle, a man of action in a lot of different ways. And we're really glad that you're here with us. So why don't we start if you would, why don't you tell me a little bit about you as kind of the early Paul growing up and all that kind of life and all that and how you got started.   Paul Hylenski ** 02:45 So, you know, I grew up in actual Newark, Delaware, so funny, there had a great childhood. Decided when I was in high school that I was going to enlist in the Marine Corps, so I wanted to be one of the few and the proud, and so I joined the Marine Corps, served in the Marine Corps, that was one of the best experiences of my life. Then after the Marine Corps, I actually got connected with a company with that was an aerospace company, and started working there as a frontline leader, and then from there, I saw a lot of bad leaders, and I saw some great leaders. And so I was able to, actually, as I kept going through the ranks, tailor my leadership towards how I wanted to be. And it was different. It was using science, psychology and leadership. And then as the AI revolution started happening, I started actually putting AI into business, and I wrote a book about AI in business, and then I thought to myself, well, now maybe I can impact the world in a bigger way. And that was what kind of drove me to start Quantum Leap Academy. And Quantum Leap Academy focuses on teaching professionals AI that's practical and and then that's really been my passion and mission is impacting the world with actually teaching how to automate and really make your life easier using AI   Michael Hingson ** 04:23 Cool. Well, you've been been doing a lot of stuff. How did you come up with the name quantum leap?   Paul Hylenski ** 04:29 A great story, but back in the 80s, there used to be an amazing TV   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 show, yes. So   Paul Hylenski ** 04:35 I thought, what better? You know, I was looking for a name that showed like, look, we're gonna go from where we're at now, and we're going to take this huge leap, and it's almost a leap of faith, you know, that we can use this new technology in in the forces of good. And so, you know, broke it out from my childhood. But, you know, kind of took the quantum leap. And then, you know, the academy. So, and   Michael Hingson ** 05:02 it kind of went from there, yeah, well, so you said that you left the Marines. Well, when you left the Marines, and you went then to a major company, and you started out in kind of initial leadership and so on, how did being a Marine help you in terms of dealing with an understanding leadership, much less what made a good leader and what made a leader, not necessarily a good leader.   Paul Hylenski ** 05:31 You know, for me, and I've done, I've done a few talks, and I've done a couple TED talks, actually, on this. And for me, the military is is is a great example of what they what I like to call the total leadership. So in business, normally what we do is we only worry about the people when we need them, or while they're at work or while they're accomplishing a mission. But in the military, we have to worry about the total person, because even the person's home life, or maybe things they have going on outside of the mission impact their ability to carry out the mission. And, you know, I've said a couple things you know about just both the military rewards people. So in the military, you get medals, and, you know, you get medals and awards for sacrificing yourself for the good of your people. But in business, a lot of times you get, you know, raises and promotions for sacrificing everyone around you for the good of yourself. And I think that's a flawed dynamic that I really got to see in action in the military, and I brought that into the civilian business life, do you   Michael Hingson ** 06:45 and looking back on it, if you will, and you talked about you saw leaders who were good leaders and not so good leaders in the corporate world. And I don't want to pick on the military, but did you see the same sort of thing at all in the military, or do they really weed out people who don't tend to to do very well in the leadership role? That's   Paul Hylenski ** 07:07 actually a myth. So most people think that there's only great leaders in the military.   Michael Hingson ** 07:15 You did find some that weren't necessarily so, okay,   Paul Hylenski ** 07:18 yes, yeah. And you know, like bad leaders tend to shape us in different ways, and sometimes better than the better leaders. You know, because you learn more from watching people who might be doing it wrong. But you know, it is great learning experience. I learned some things to do, and then I learned some things that did work, but yeah, absolutely, there are bad leaders everywhere. So   Michael Hingson ** 07:43 what would you define as as a bad leader? What are some things that you experienced or you've seen that made people not necessarily such great leaders?   Paul Hylenski ** 07:52 So for me, it's, you know, leading through intimidation and fear that was a practice that was made pretty common all throughout, you know, 1970s 1980s and the myth there was that people stayed because they were okay with the treatment. Well, in reality, the reason why they stayed to endure that horrible kind of leadership was because they had pensions. Well, the world now doesn't have pensions for most part. So people stay because they like the place or they like the culture. You know, another defining factor for me for leadership is, do I feel psychologically safe with that person? Yeah. And, you know, psychological safety and the ability to make state mistakes and the ability to make failures and view them as growth really defines a leader that's focused on the future and not just on the present or the past.   Michael Hingson ** 08:48 In the military, did people have much opportunity when they encountered somebody who wasn't necessarily a good leader to move elsewhere? I would think that that was probably more challenging to do than when you're working for a company, especially a large company, where you could transfer probably easier, is that true?   Paul Hylenski ** 09:08 Yeah, that that is true. So sometimes you had to endure it and and then you make the best out of a situation. And, you know, like I was saying earlier, sometimes that's where I learned, you know, as I was going through things that just didn't work, you know, and the way you talk to people and treat people, and just even the overall demeanor that you have as a leader, you know, matters. And everything you say is a communication, but everything you do is a communication as well. And a lot of leaders don't remember that, or they don't, you know, they don't visualize that I   Michael Hingson ** 09:45 know, for me personally, and you mentioned the whole concept of fear and intimidation, and I've experienced it from time to time for a variety of reasons, being blind and interacting with. People, I faced challenges because people tended to not necessarily view blindness as as they should. And so oftentimes I would have people say to me, Well, you got to work harder and different than everyone else, because you're blind and people aren't going to perceive you as being competent. Well, there's truth to that to a degree, but there are ways to approach that as a leader. And I would think that when you're telling someone all the time, you gotta be better, you gotta be smarter, and so on, as opposed to saying, how do we make sure that you shine as best as you possibly can? And I don't know when I adopted this method of operation, but one of the things that I discovered fairly early on was that as I was managing people, and when I started really hiring people and opening offices for companies, one of the things that I said to people was, look, I'm hiring you because you've demonstrated to me, or you've convinced me that you can do the job. So my job isn't to boss you around. My job is to work with you specifically to see how I can add value to what you're doing to make you the best performer that you can be. And what I discovered is that the people who really got that and understood it and chose to find ways that I could work with them and use the skills that I have, and oftentimes they took the lead in discovering what they thought that I could help with but we worked together, and when they got that concept, they really did perform a whole lot better than those who didn't get it.   Paul Hylenski ** 11:53 That's a great strategy.   Michael Hingson ** 11:55 Well, I think it's and it's important, because I think that fear and intimidation doesn't help anyone, and it doesn't help you or anyone to develop a real trust if you're just dealing with someone out of fear, as opposed to dealing with someone through trust and teamwork, it's a it can be a challenge. Yeah, I   Paul Hylenski ** 12:18 think you know, one of the things that we're finding out more and more and companies are finding out is they never really made significant headway to fix issues or to get real growth because of that fear and intimidation. And I mean, just take, just take mistakes. Right? If I'm afraid to make a mistake, I'm going to lie, cheat and steal my way out of that mistake. I'm gonna blame it on everyone else, but if I'm not afraid to make the mistake, then I'll tell you, as my leader, exactly what happened, and then as the leader, if you know exactly what happened, you can work corrective action and fix it and make the environment better. And that's where the beauty and the secret behind that is   Michael Hingson ** 13:01 well, or the other part of it is because you acknowledge the mistake and so on, the leader will let you do the corrective acting and take the corrective steps that need to be done, because especially that will be a good learning experience for you, but they're there to support you, which is really the issue.   Paul Hylenski ** 13:21 And I think when leaders change their mindset from failure being this negative connotation, and, you know, failure being this bad thing, to, hey, that's just another step towards our growth, you know. But what did you learn from it? Or what are you going to do different, right? All those things, then all of a sudden, people start to realize they're in a growth mindset. They can fail, they can learn, they can proceed, and then they end up growing. Yeah, and   Michael Hingson ** 13:49 I think overall, people really do want to grow. They want to evolve, but the leader is, or ought to be, the person to help really create that environment for people.   Paul Hylenski ** 14:04 Yep, and spot on. I mean, who wakes up in the morning and says, Hey, I'm going to be a loser today. I'm going to be a failure today, right? Nobody, so. But people fail, and people might not get something, they might not understand something, and you're spot on. The leader has to be the one that's their cheerleader or their coach or their mentor or giving them direction on Hey, you didn't really do well on this, but this is what you need to do next time. Similarly, a different way, or   Michael Hingson ** 14:34 you didn't do well. Do you have any idea of why? Because it's always great if you can figure it out. You know, I have worked with guide dogs since 1964 and it took a couple of dogs for me to develop and begin to articulate this. But what I learned is that every time I got a new guide dog, and we would spend time at the school or whatever, what I. Really doing there is beginning the process of creating a bond with a new teammate. And no mistake, dogs are as much a part of a team as anyone else. If you allow that to happen, most people really look down on on dogs, but the reality is that they have a lot of senses, and they have a lot to contribute. And the thing is, if you believe people like Cesar Milano and so on, the thing is, dogs really want to be a part, and they really want you to tell them what you expect from them. And in that sense, it's really cool. They don't have hidden agendas like people often do. And so the difficulty with people with hidden agendas is it makes it more difficult to trust them, and sometimes you can break through that. And the hidden agenda isn't such a hidden agenda that isn't necessarily a negative agenda at all, but we tend to be very closed in terms of trusting others, because we're always concerned about what hidden agendas they have. Dogs, I believe, do love unconditionally, but I don't think that they trust unconditionally. But the difference between a dog and a person is that a dog is generally more open to trust, unless something just really hurt them, which is something typically that it would be a person who did that. But dogs are open to trust. And if you create that trusting relationship, it is second to none.   Paul Hylenski ** 16:34 That's that's interesting. Know that?   Michael Hingson ** 16:38 Yeah, they The reality is that they want to please. They want to do a good job. So I've learned over the years working with guide dogs, it is an extremely stressful job for them, because they want to please. They want to make it work. And they're being tested whenever, for example, the harness is on, even when it's off a lot. But when the harness is on, they watch, and have to watch a lot what's coming up at the street corner, the curb is coming up. I got to stop at the curb and make sure that my person stops at the curb. I tell the dog to go forward, and the dog sees there's a hybrid car coming, and I don't know it, because it's in battery mode and so I don't hear it, but the dog, if I create a good, teaming relationship with that dog, the dog knows that it has the authority to not budge to make sure that we don't get smushed by the car. Likewise, if everything is fine, then the dog will go. But the dog has a lot of decisions to make in the in the guiding process. They don't lead, they guide. It's my job to know where to go and how to get there, and I need to learn that as I travel and make that happen. And the neat thing about it is that when the dog understands I'm doing my job, it feels a lot better about doing its job, and it knows what its job is. And in reality, what that ultimately means is that we form a good team, supportive relationship. And I think that is something that because just as relevant in person to person, leadership and teamwork as it is in person to dog relationships, oh sure,   Paul Hylenski ** 18:27 the ability to trust each other and feel safe with each other, absolutely. Yeah. So,   Michael Hingson ** 18:33 so you've done a lot. What got you started in dealing with AI? What? What attracted you to that? Yeah,   Paul Hylenski ** 18:40 yeah. My fourth book was actually titled The evolution of leadership. So aI had just kind of started coming online. I started researching AI, and then I thought to myself, Okay, well, now that I've researched it, I'm going to start actually using it. And then I went to actually input it into a few businesses, and once I realized, like, wow, like, I could automate 50 to 60% of the business with AI. And I started noticing, like we had time to be proactive, not reactive. Then, then I realized, okay, I'm we're on to something most anybody. If you ask them about AI, they're just going to say, chat, GPT. But there's, you know, 1000 different platforms. There's AI automations. So I thought, Okay, people just don't know. And, you know, the more senior people are, the least, the less that they knew about, you know, AI and chatgpt and everything. So I thought, Okay, well, the, you know, baby boomers and a lot of the you know, millennials, they're running companies right now, or they own companies, but they're the ones that are not able to really use AI or new AI. So you. Know, I've really tried to put a focus on teaching practical AI. So not just the, not just the theory and all the, you know, school type of material, but actually how to utilize AI to benefit you and your business. And that's been, you know, really fantastic since we kicked the academy off, we've gotten formally accredited. So when you take, you know, certifications, one thing that's different is a lot of places you'll take AI certifications, and you just get a little certificate, but no credits, and it's not formally accredited. And that was one thing we put a lot of attention into because as business professionals, the whole point of taking training is to grow in your, you know, career and grow in your job. So, you know, accreditation and credentials matter. But, yeah, that's what got me started, and then now it's become a passion. I, you know, I do free training for veterans. We actually even started a software as a service to help veterans put their disability claims in and streamline that process. So it's been it's been really fantastic. AI has opened up a lot of opportunities. How does AI   Michael Hingson ** 21:18 help in that whole process of doing the claims, applications and so on. What does it say? So it's   Paul Hylenski ** 21:23 absolutely great. So this was our startup company, which was a derivative off of Quantum Leap, and it's called vet mentor AI, so we'll be releasing it towards the end of the year, and we've already used, utilized it on, you know, test veterans, where they've actually allowed us to help them put their applications in. So the problem is that, you know, for first time submittals for veterans, it's a 70% rejection rate rate, so a lot of veterans either don't know what to do, or maybe they're afraid to do it. And then one of the big things is PTSD and anxiety. There's a fair amount of veterans that really have high anxiety, or maybe have issues from their PTSD, where this process is daunting and the fact of going in front of a medical examiner is almost impossible for them. So the way it does it, or what it does is it allows the veteran to basically in plain language, right? What's wrong? So they'll fill out a very simple form. It's something that you know, someone with basic education can fill out, and it's basically a questionnaire. And then we have a proprietary AI software that we actually built that analyzes all that data, and then it's trained on the VA rating manuals. It's trained on the VA forms, the VA website. And so what it does is it actually tailors the person's claim to the VA rating manual. And by wording it like that, it actually allows the veteran to get this comprehensive report, which even asks the person, Hey, did you have this medical documentation? Did you think about filing for this secondary claim and and so then the second part of this is we actually built an AI platform to allow the veteran to do a simulated CNP exam. So what a cmp exam is, it's a medical exam where the veteran has to go in and actually get examinated, and you know, then that that doctor will determine if they, you know, meet the criteria. So what we've done is we've actually utilized AI and allowed them to do their medical examination with an AI. It even has a voice, so that they can talk to it like a person and imagine and this has been wildly successful for our veterans that have high anxiety or PTSD, because they're able to practice their their CNP exam, and you know, it will critique their answers. It will let them know, you know, what, what their rating would be, and all this thing in the background. And it's really amazing, because then when they go in for their real one they've already practiced, and they are less anxious, they're less nervous about it, and they make better decisions. So the one great thing, and I'm so proud of this, because being a veteran, this was something that was really hard for me, was, you know, submitting my disability claims, so the average failure rate is 70% on the first time submission but with vet mentor, all of our veterans, we are currently at an 80% acceptance rate on first time submittals. So we've flipped the strip the script, and you know, instead of a 30% approval rate, we're up to an 80% approval. Boring and   Michael Hingson ** 25:01 it's interesting, because what I'm really hearing is that, to a large degree, the AI system is helping to train, much less helping to create the actual information that has to be submitted. So it's kind of a double pronged approach to solving a problem,   Paul Hylenski ** 25:20 yeah, and it's, it does it. It prompts them for, you know, something simple that I never realized in the beginning of the process was a personal statement. So it helps them to actually generate a personal statement about their illness or injury or disability. And then, even more than that, it prompts you to put it in the proper form. So most veterans don't know, but if you don't upload your personal statement in the 4138 Bravo form, they actually discount it. And there's a lot of veterans that are are submitting just a Word document with a little handwritten thing, but it, you know, the AI, actually, when we started doing this, the AI picked up that, hey, this must be done in this form. And when we were looking at it, we were like, Oh my God. We didn't even know that. So the AI taught us when we were actually making it   Michael Hingson ** 26:13 well. And how long have you been doing this? So   Paul Hylenski ** 26:17 we've been doing this for four months. Little over 20 veterans. So we're in the middle of, we're in the middle of the end stages of, you know, building the rest of the site and the platform. We basically, when we started, we kind of had three or four different types of AI systems talking to each other. So we're actually building and consolidating it just into one that's a nice little format for a user. And the beauty part with with our software is it's a one time lifetime fee, so you pay $50 which covers the cost of the AI software in the background, and you have it for life. So as your your disabilities get worse with age, because we all know they do. You have the software for the rest of your life, and it's for only $50 which is starkly different than the A lot of the companies out there, which you know they're preying on veterans. And what they do is they take 1000s of dollars or percentages off of their disability every single month. So that's one of the things that we wanted to do when I made this company. It wasn't to make money, it was to impact the world. So that's why we keep it just as a lifetime fee, just a $50 one time, and you're done. So the veteran basically just pays for the software is   Michael Hingson ** 27:43 bit mentor, a nonprofit like a 501 c3 company. So no,   Paul Hylenski ** 27:47 we're not right now. We haven't done any of that yet, just because we want to build the platform,   Michael Hingson ** 27:54 it's fair. Um, you've got to start somewhere, needless to say. So   Paul Hylenski ** 27:59 we've helped. We've helped over 20 veterans so far. So that was the big thing, was we get we got veterans in the beginning that we're like, Okay, well, let's try it out. And then, you know, we've done a couple pitches. We've, you know, been getting investments in, in the platform and everything. And the intention is, you know, I want to roll this out nationwide to help veterans. There's a little over a million pending disability claims right now, and if you just go off of the you know, the standard statistics, 70% of them will get rejected. Yeah, and that is a horrible thing for a veteran who maybe is having trouble at work, or maybe their disability is impacting their ability to get promoted and and to have to go through that after they've honorably served the country. You know that I'm trying to fix that?   Michael Hingson ** 28:53 Do you see expanding this and also working with people who aren't veterans by any chance?   Paul Hylenski ** 29:01 So we haven't thought of that. But that is a great idea. I was actually so we, we're in the VA Pathfinder system, because my intention in the beginning was actually to partner with the VA, because imagine a VSO, or, you know, one of the members from VA who are helping the veterans have this tool to help them. You know, I think that would change the game too   Michael Hingson ** 29:26 well. I'm thinking, for example, there are a lot of people with disabilities who have to navigate and interact with their state rehabilitation systems and so many other things that might very well benefit from what you're doing and also who will learn a lot, and that will help them with their confidence as well, which is kind of what prompted my my question, and my thought about it like   Paul Hylenski ** 29:50 we haven't yet, but you got my mind thinking now, and you know what happens when that,   Michael Hingson ** 29:54 there you go, yeah, well, that's, that's always, that's always a good thing, not. A problem. So when you started really integrating AI into healthcare and doing the things that you were doing, what kind of challenges did you run into, or are you running into?   Paul Hylenski ** 30:13 Yeah, the first one was when I started integrating it into business, I met a lot of resistance, because people don't understand it. So even something as simple as chat GBT, right? Just go real basic into AI. Chat GBT. There's so many people right now that either haven't used it or are not using it or don't even know all of the things that it can do. If you have a business, if you're a business owner, if you're a manager, if you are doing office clerical work, chat, GPT can probably boost your productivity just by 30% and you know, I mean instantly you will feel the benefit. I use it to write emails. I use it to do charts, data analysis. You know, there's a there is so many uses. You know, you can use chat GBT to build a game show that then you can use that game show to go train people on Excel. I mean, it's amazing the amount of limitless things that you're able to do with it. But chat TBT is literally like one grain of sand in the beach that is AI, and most people don't know that. You know, there's another platform that's make.com it literally builds automations. So this call our podcast right now, you could have an automation that it would literally transcribe the the podcast, then it could send it into four or five different directions. We could do Google Doc, we could do a Google sheet, we could put a summary about it. It would do everything all in one just by hitting one button. And so businesses are starting to use this because it's automating most of the clerical work that they do.   Michael Hingson ** 32:04 I know that I'm not using AI nearly to the extent that I could even chat GPT, and part of it has been that I've found some inaccessibility issues in some of the buttons that aren't labeled and so on. So gee, maybe I'll have to talk into giving me a better lesson on using some AI stuff, but I appreciate and understand the concepts of it, and so I know what you're saying, and I've used it to write articles in the past. And what I do when I when I bring AI or chat GPT into it, is I'll tell it to write something, and then my job is to look at that and massage it and make it my own and add my own stuff to it. And in fact, I've I've actually told chat GPT to create something, and I've told it to do it six or seven times, and I take the best of all of those, plus what I contribute to it, and turn that into the article that I actually publish. But the I think the most important part about it is that I really know what it's it's doing, and what I'm doing, and I know that I have to be the one to control it. I can't just go off and let chat, GPT create something and then submit it. That's not only worthless, but it's it's certainly dishonest. I've said many times. You know, teachers talk about students that use chat GPT to write their papers and all that, and then they turn them in, and sometimes you can tell that they're written by chat GPT, and sometimes you can't, but teachers are worried about that. My reaction, and I have a secondary teaching credential, so I do understand something about all this. But my reaction is, I think that for chat for teachers, chat GPT is great if kids go off and write their own papers, great if they use chat GPT to do it. Great because at the end of the day, you turn the paper in, and then the teacher calls you up during a period and say, not offend your paper, you're going to know real quickly who really did the work and who didn't. Yeah,   Paul Hylenski ** 34:11 and, and, you know, you brought up some good points there, right? So I have a, I have a colleague on LinkedIn who's the AI educator, and so what he actually has done is he's put a lot of AI into education, and there are softwares that a lot of teachers are using now that actually detect chat. GBT, yeah, detects AI. You know, one of the best things that people can do, and this is something that most people know nothing about, but you can actually create a digital twin of yourself, and it's very easy to do on open AI, so you can create an assistant that's actually trained on how you write, how you sound, right? And so this, we did this very easily for me, where I. Downloaded all of my posts, all of my interactions, and everything from LinkedIn, and I trained it on all of my books. So what happens is is you literally have an AI system that talks like you, has your same tone, has the same humor that you do. And when I do my posts and everything I do kind of the same thing you do, where I'll have my digital twin create the post and then I massage it or whatever, or go through it and read it. But what I've found is definitely for automations and definitely for email writing, these digital twins that you're able to create for particularly marketing as well. They're pretty spot on. I mean, you would have a hard time telling the difference between my digital twin and my writing. Of   Michael Hingson ** 35:48 course, you're leaving yourself open to the obvious question, which one are you the twin or the real person? But that's okay, yes,   Paul Hylenski ** 35:56 that's a good one today. Are   Michael Hingson ** 35:59 you a robot or not,   Paul Hylenski ** 36:01 no. But people don't realize that. And you know, the beauty part of it, Michael is like, so if you own a small marketing company, I mean, you could create 30 to 60 days of content in literally a couple hours. If you have a digital twin, and it changes the game, because you're able to scale businesses, you're able to do things. You can set automations up. You know, on some of my emails, particularly my personal emails, depending on what is in the email, I have automations where the AI actually responds to the email and it sends it to my drafts and then, so at the end of the day, we do as I look at the draft email. I click it, I click it, I click it up. I don't like the way that read it. I'll delete that and write it for real. But for the most part, I'd say it's about 90% perfect. And you know, I took, I take maybe about two hours of emails and turn it into about 1520 minutes. And so then it gives me an extra hour and some change every single day just on that task.   Michael Hingson ** 37:06 So here's a question, actually. So you do the process that you just described, and you go off and you massage some of the emails because you didn't like the way your twin created them. How do you then make sure that your twin gets trained on your changes.   Paul Hylenski ** 37:23 Plus, you know, I mean, you That's exactly it's the whole point is you have to what I'll do is I'll basically copy and paste the email, put it into my digital twin and say I did not like maybe the word, a couple of the words they used, or I didn't like the tone of this email, and so that's the beauty part with chat. GPT, yeah, and you know, any, pretty much, any, AI, the whole point of it is fine tuning it, so you have to, but most people don't realize that you can talk to the AI because it responds. So like, if you say, I don't like this, it's not going to do that, and it's so important, and one of the hacks that a lot of people don't do. So when I create something, let's say a business plan or a coaching plan, and I'll create it, I'll ask chat GBT to critique it for me and then improve it. So now I have it created, then I have it critique it and improve it, and pretty much, at the end of that, I have a pretty perfect document. And that's changed a lot of the the ability that I but most people don't realize you can actually have it critique its own work,   Michael Hingson ** 38:36 yeah, and that's and that's the reason I asked the question, because that's really the whole point. It is a, it is a process, and AI is opening so many things. I work with a company called accessibe, and accessibe uses AI and what's, what's called a, well, it's, it's a, it's a process where it can generate the code that will make a website more accessible, called an overlay. Some people say they don't work and so on, because they believe that you got to manually code it. But in reality, I can find manual coders who don't always do a good job. But what accessibe does is that they have created a system out of necessity. They're in Israel, and in 2017 Israel said, websites need to be accessible. And these guys that all started this company in 2015 and the company was making websites for people, well, suddenly they had to make everything accessible. And they created an AI process that does a lot of that. It's expanding and it's improving over time, because there are things that it it didn't do well, and there are things that it will get better at as it goes forward. But the fact of the matter is that it does help make websites a lot more inclusive than they ever were. So for example, if you're a person with epilepsy and you go to a web. Site that uses accessibe, and there are blinking elements on that page that could cause you to have a seizure. You can go into a particular disability profile on accessibe That's for people with epilepsy, and disable those blinking elements. And the way it all works is that accessibe's widget transmits the code not to the website and modifies the website code. It transfers the information directly to my browser and and my browser and my screen reader that verbalizes to me doesn't care where the code comes from, as long as it's there. So it's really pretty clever, and it and it's and it's making quite a difference. It's got a long way to go, but AI is new autonomous vehicles have a long way to go. They're pretty new, but they're getting better. So it's, it's a process, right?   Paul Hylenski ** 40:52 We're at the beginning of this, and it's, you know, starting to really grow. And so, like, you know, people, people just, you know, a lot of people are still resistant to it and, and there's good reasons for that, right? I mean, this is going to be very dangerous as much as it's going to be good, right? I mean, with the deep fakes and all the ability that you allow people to do with it, they but there's that much good with it too and knowing it. And once you start knowing it and knowing what to look for and learning it and everything, then you can start to pick up on maybe some not so good ways of using it, or, you know, the ethics about it, or, you know, the transparency about Yeah, how do   Michael Hingson ** 41:38 you balance the technological innovations and the ethics in, in what you do, yeah,   Paul Hylenski ** 41:45 for me, so that's part of what we teach in the academy. So like, the first and I have five levels there. Each level goes up, but in, in the first level, it's all about, like, AI and business. So there's a fair amount of, you know, ethics, transparency and everything about proprietary data, not putting certain data into it, you know. So for me, it's that is the biggest key, because especially with vet mentor, you know, you're dealing with really touchy areas, medical information and everything. And, you know, while it's kind of sanitized because of our process, you know, it's still it's new. And, you know, and with anything new, there's going to be some type of resistance, there's going to be questions, and people with the lack of information, they make up their own, right, and that's where you get a lot of the confusion about AI right now, but I think it's important to realize that, you know, this is new, so you have to tread carefully. And you know, the best way to actually protect yourself is to educate yourself, yeah, um,   Michael Hingson ** 42:55 and, you know, the internet and itself, it's got the dark web, and the web that's not so dark, and there are, there are going to be people who will misuse it, but what we we need to learn is how to bring ethical decisions into it, and over time, hopefully, we can bring down a lot of The the so called Dark Web, and let people know or or get people to understand that's inappropriate behavior. And I think the same thing with AI. And yes, you're going to see people who get fooled. You're going to have a lot of challenges, but there is so much positivity that can come from it that is is even more important than the negative parts,   Paul Hylenski ** 43:41 yep. And I think, you know, there's, there are companies out there, because I've talked to a couple of their CEOs that are actually building AI systems to detect negative AI, right, like, so they can detect the deep fakes and everything. And, you know, AI the one, the one touchy thing that it's done so in the in the past, you know, before the internet and everything, if somebody wanted to steal from you, they had to walk up to you and steal from you. They had to pick pocket you, or actually rob you. So you got to see the person's face as they were taking something from you. When the internet came, you had hackers that had no face, right? He was just this person on the other end of the computer, and they could steal your information or steal your money. Well, the problem with AI in this manner is, and why we have to be careful and we have to protect against this is, now it's your daughter. Now it's your husband, your wife, your boss, that comes on the screen and says, I need you to make this transfer. I need money, right? And it's really the thieves, but they've been able to clone, you know, your family member, so now the people stealing from you look like and sound like people that. You care about, and that is why it is getting drastically more difficult to identify some of these, you know, really tough ways that it's being used. So I'm excited to see the innovation that keeps us going to come out, you know, with some of these companies to actually screen for those deep fakes, because then I think once you can get rid of or regulate some of that negative usage, then people really will just focus on the positivity that it gets.   Michael Hingson ** 45:29 Yeah, because the reality is that it can be so positive for everyone, and that if people really learn that and catch on to it and ethically use it, there's, there's no end to the capabilities and the positive things that they can bring about.   Paul Hylenski ** 45:48 I mean, you have 10 year old children now coding websites because they've made it so easy they can literally type in to code a game. People are making their own games. You can go on Claude AI and literally make a web application. Just by saying, make a web application for a loan calculator. So you can create anything in the world. And before, I used to have to know how to code if I wanted to make something like that. Now I just type in what I want, and it spits it out,   Michael Hingson ** 46:20 yeah, yeah, and it's it is going to get better, which is really what makes it so cool. And I hope that people will catch on and understand that being positive and doing it ethically really is better and worth more than than the alternative.   Paul Hylenski ** 46:39 And I think so too. I think once we figure ways to have the AI protect against the AI, I think, I think it'll be even better, too. And, you know, I'm excited, because from the students that I've had in the academy, so many people from beginner level to where they thought they knew, you know, they thought they knew chat GBT. They thought they knew automations. It's been great because you see the light bulb click on, when some people are like, Oh, my God. Why was I taking a week to do that? And you just did it in five minutes. And you know, our level four is where you actually learn how to build a software as a service. And you know, our students walk away with a fully functional AI business. And there's not many schools, there's not many academies that you'll ever walk away with actually real practical knowledge or a real business.   Michael Hingson ** 47:38 Yeah, and that's what makes it so cool, and it it certainly helps to empower people a lot, doesn't it?   Paul Hylenski ** 47:45 Yeah, I mean, we had a school teacher build a CRM platform that then she took and she went and sold it to five different companies, and they're using her platform that we built in two days with AI, it was so crazy. And she's like, I never thought I'd be able to do something like this. And it's true, because five years ago, she would have never been able to do that, because that wasn't her specialty. Right now, you know, she built a fully functioning Software as a Service, and it was, it was the most beautiful thing to see. Her eyes light up at the end of it, where it was, like, I just built this.   Michael Hingson ** 48:24 Yeah, it is so cool that she's recognizing that she's still the one who did it and she used tools, but she's still the one who did it,   Paul Hylenski ** 48:34 yep, yep. And it's, that's really what's amazing is you can, you know, you show people, I bring up, you know, a lot of examples, but most, most people don't realize what they actually have the power to. And a lot of people come on, especially the level one people come in and say, I can't learn this. This is just so hard for me. And then once you start breaking it down to a very simplistic level of, hey, this is how to prompt. This is how the system reads your words. And once you understand that, then everything else starts to make sense. And it's so beautiful, because you have people, you know, creating things they never thought they could before, yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 49:20 that's what makes it so fun. And people do want to be creative, which is great. You've written several books. I know one you've written. I'm intrigued about. We haven't discussed it yet, error proofing, humans Tell me about that.   Paul Hylenski ** 49:33 Yeah, so error proofing, I love the title. Oh, it's great. And, you know, I got so many comments on that so that book, actually, I'm so proud of it, because it was an Amazon bestseller. You know, I've been on a book tour with it and everything. So I originally brought that book up because I thought, okay, error proofing humans there. So everybody you know commented and said, You can't error proof a human. That. Is the whole point of the book. So every human in the world makes anywhere from three to five mistakes per hour, if they're trained on a topic. Now that goes up by 11 times, potentially if they're they're not trained. So you have people every day making mistake after mistake. Now, most of them are what they call micro mistakes, and they're detectable, right? So you can detect, okay, I typed in the wrong letter, so I hit the backspace or whatever. But when you're doing some tasks, if you have that many mistakes, sometimes you don't detect them, or sometimes you can't correct them, and that's when we have accidents and injuries and everything. So the whole point of the book is, what if you could error proof processes and finally make an error proof human so what we do is we follow, and I did all the in the book. It's all the science and psychology behind human error, how to eliminate it or mitigate it. And one of the one of the key strategies that I'll leave with, like your viewers and listeners, is the Swiss cheese method. Now you can use this in your in your house, you can use this in your business. And it was made up by air, created by a guy named James Reason. And what he said was every process was like a piece of Swiss cheese. It had holes that the error or the accident could go through. So the only way to truly error proof human is to layer peace upon peace upon peace. And every failure you have means that the process isn't robust enough, so you have to add another layer of process. And what happens is, after a while, just like pieces of Swiss cheese laid up on after each other, the holes don't line up after a while, and all of a sudden you have error proof humans. And so we've done this in multiple businesses, and it has transformed their quality numbers. It has transformed their safety numbers. And what happens is, and when you can get people behind things like this, you know, you change the entire culture of the of the company or the business, or even at home. You could do these things that I say it in the book. You can do this with your children. You can do this with yourself, right to to make less and less mistakes. And you know, one of the things that a lot of people don't realize too, one of the other key main things, and then I'll get off the book, but one of the key main things the book is, you know, a high frequency, low risk activity like walking. So 30% of all injuries in a workplace are slips, trips and falls. And you'd ask yourself, well, how come people can't walk? Well, they can walk, right? But, well, I don't look at my feet when I walk, because it's a high frequency low risk, so my mind becomes immediately complacent. But if I were to drive a fork truck, or, let's say, operate a crane with a heavy load, every little sound that thing makes, I'm going to be on super high alert so people don't typically get injured on those high risk, low frequency jobs. So what you have to do in a workplace is you actually have to change the risk dia or dynamic to make it feel more risky. And by layering process after process, and sometimes check after check, you increase the risk profile, which decreases complacency,   Michael Hingson ** 53:44 yeah, which makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Yep, and, and I think that that in reality, we take so many things for granted. Gi, I don't know. I think there are a lot of drivers out there who consider driving like walking. It's high frequency and low risk, and it's not. And the way they drive, though, you'd think they think otherwise, yep,   Paul Hylenski ** 54:06 and that's why there's a lot of accidents, you know, but, and you know, there's a study that said the most accidents happen closer to the person's property, closer to the person's house. And you know, when you look at that, it's because I'm getting closer to home. I'm comfortable with the area. I become more complacent, and now I might run through that stop sign, or I might, yeah, make that turn a little faster than normal. So it's it's really important in an environment, and as we as leaders craft our environment. We need to look at the risk profile. We need to look at our processes.   Michael Hingson ** 54:47 It's also true that what we have to do is to learn to be more disciplined about what we do. And I think that's a lot of what you're saying. When you get closer to home, you tend to be more undisciplined, but you've got to keep the discipline. Plan all the way through the process? Yeah, absolutely. And that doesn't necessarily always happen. Were you a pilot when you were in the Marines? No,   Paul Hylenski ** 55:10 so I was a, I was actually worked on helicopters in the Marine Corps, and then after the Marine Corps, I said, you know, I want to, I want to fly and and so I got my pilot's license. It was one of the best things I ever did in my life. And, you know, it taught me a lot about complacency, because being a pilot and checklists and everything, the entire cockpit is designed to defeat complacency, yeah, and, you know, but I was telling a story last week, you know, the most deadly time for a pilot is between 250 and 500 hours. And you think to yourself, again, these are experienced pilots, like, why would somebody, you know, be more dangerous than than a brand new pilot? And it's because of that risk protein as a brand new pilot, everything matters. I'm going through every single checklist item, every noise that the aircraft makes. I'm hyper vigilant. But after about 250 or 250 to 500 hours, now I'm confident. I'm used to the plane. I'm we might skip my checklist, I might do something riskier than normal, right? And that's the complacency death trap, right there.   Michael Hingson ** 56:28 Yeah. And so after 500 hours, you have done it enough that, in theory, it dawns on you. I've got to stay disciplined. I've got to do this the right way, like I did at the beginning, and it makes me safer, and it makes the flight safer.   Paul Hylenski ** 56:45 Yup and, and sometimes, and a lot of pilots have told me that sometimes during that little 250 to 500 you have a lot of near mistakes or mistakes that you learn from pretty quickly. Yeah and, and then that's enough for them to say, Yep, I gotta break myself of this. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 57:05 exactly, right. Well, and we're we're seeing so many things at airports now. It's crazy. I don't understand how so many airplanes either collide with each other, or other equipment collides with them and so on. How come we're seeing a lot more of that than we used to   Paul Hylenski ** 57:22 think. Well, I have to be honest, I think as the travel keeps getting more and more, right, you're going to probably see a lot more of this, because it's taxiing. So taxiing for a pilot is at one of those low risk, yeah, high frequency things, right? I'm just, I'm literally down, I'm not in the air. You feel safe because you're on the ground. You're, you know, you're steering it. And a lot of times, they're also very task saturated while they're taxiing. Yeah, so one thing most people don't see is while they're taxiing, they're going through checklists, they're prepping. And, you know, you don't have a good view of around you in the cockpit. You only have a window that you really can't see in the back. And you know, so the reduced visibility, the high you know, high task saturation, and then that, you know, high frequency, low risk. It's perfect environment for complacency to crop up   Michael Hingson ** 58:20 well. And the reality is, a lot of times it's not a pilot's fault that something happened. They're also relying on other people, whether it's air traffic controllers or whatever. And so there are just a lot of issues, and I think that it is something that hopefully National Transportation Safety Board and the FAA and so on, will work more on to try to eliminate more of those accidents. I have a friend whose daughter went on a vacation last Saturday with her husband, and as they were backing away from the terminal, they got hit by some sort of piece of equipment, and it to late, everything by a day. I don't know any of the details, but just so many of those things happen. We we've got to not allow things to be taken for granted. But I, I would not at all say it necessarily wasn't any way a pilot error, because there's no way to for me to know that, and it probably wasn't, but it still happened, which is, which   Paul Hylenski ** 59:19 is, there's humans everywhere. So humans are prone to mistake. And you know exactly the point of the book is, you're never going to error proof a human, but you can air proof processes. Yep,   Michael Hingson ** 59:32 you can do that. Well, if people want to reach out to you and learn more about you, what you do, maybe become involved in your courses and so on. How do they do that?   Paul Hylenski ** 59:41 Yes, so the best, and I love for people to do this. I have a fantastic network and a community on LinkedIn. So the best way to reach me, and you can reach me personally, is through LinkedIn. Just look up my name, Paul Hylenski, and then if you are interested in. Learning. Ai Mike, it's Quantum Leap Academy. So it's www, dot Quantum Leap academy.org, so it's gonna be.org yeahlin ski   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:12 for me,   Paul Hylenski ** 1:00:12 please. So, h, y, l, e, n, s, k, I,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:17 so, Paul Hylenski on LinkedIn, which makes sense? Yep, and that's it cool. Well, I want to thank you for being here and being a part of this today. It's been educational for me, and it's been a lot of fun. I value the time that we spent, and maybe in the future, if you think we ought to talk some more, I'm always glad to do that. We can, can do more of this, but I really appreciate all the sound knowledge and advice that you shared, and I hope everyone out there listening and watching appreciated it as well. Love to hear from you. If you would let us know what you thought about our podcast today, you can reach me through email, Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, Michael hingsons, M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O n.com/podcast, wherever you're listening, though, we hope that you like this well enough that you'll give us a five star rating as a review. We really value your reviews. We love them. Please give us a review. And if you've reviewed us on earlier podcasts, don't stop. We'd like to hear it about this one too. We really look forward to your comments and your thoughts. If you know of anyone who ought to be a guest, and Paul you as well. If you think of anyone else who you think ought to come on our podcast, we'd love to hear from you. We're always looking for new friends to make and new people who have stories to tell. So feel free to do it, and we, we'd love to to hear from you in whatever you do. So Paul, again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely a lot of fun and and I hope we get to do more of it in the future. Yeah. Thank   Paul Hylenski ** 1:01:59 you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity, and this has been great. Thank you, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:07 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. 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